Please have some respect for this thread. Owners only, and questions that only pertain to tweaking the AE700. I won't police for content, but if pricing posts start to pop up I will kill them (and the poster... or stearnly warn them... or beat them with a wet noodle... something). Normal forum rules apply.

-MP

OK.
I didn’t want to post late last night about eliminating VB on my 700 for two reasons. 1) I was too tired - and, 2) I wanted to be certain VB hadn’t returned in the morning after leaving the 700 in stand-by all night.

The best way I’ve found to reduce (by at least 85%- 90%) VB is to send an interlaced signal to the 700 (I’m using a Sony 9000) and let the 700 handle the de-interlacing/conversion. I tried this with the 500 a few months back - and no luck. VB was the same on the 500 no matter what signal I sent (progressive, interlaced, composite, DVI)

I tell you it looks weird to see the U-571 underwater scenes with no banding! You would have to look very very hard to see any. With a progressive signal I could actually count the individual bars. Now everything looked very smooth. Vast improvement. When I switched (by remote) back to progressive - the banding returned! This was too simple. Next I plopped in AOTC (large ship landing in fog) and presto. Much improved. There is still FPN in the scene - but no banding. Next I played the foggy scenes from Pirates and Master. No problem. Next up the Tatoonie desert scene from Star Wars. Shockingly enough - it looked great too! This scene is an LCD killer if there ever was one. The Das Boot - underwater scenes looked fine as well (although a week transfer). So - I turned power off at the remote. I had previously been “hard” powering the unit off at the switch on the projector as had been suggested by many here to help with VB (which in my case didn’t work). I went to bed.

I woke up at 3:50 am (why sleep?) and couldn’t wait to go down and see if the VB was still reduced. I powered up the 700 with the remote - put on U-571 - and was met with the worst “streaking” I’ve ever seen. No VB mind you - which is great - but now I have streaking. Kind of looked like a severe case of FPN. But much worse. The screen looked streaked from side to side. Everything. Sky scenes (ch 13), underwater scenes (ch 15) Even the exploding waves rising up from the ocean were streaked. My heart sank. I let the projector warm up for about 20 minutes. Went back in to in to re-check ...and thankfully the streaking was gone. Everything looked great once again (Whew!). The projector evidently needed to warm up (although I never noticed streaking before when it was cold...?). I turned off the 700 at the main switch this time. When I go home this afternoon I’ll see if the streaking (FPN?) Is back. Or if turning off the main power switch at the projector somehow prevents it. Maybe feeding an interlaced signal in conjunction with hard powering off the unit, and maybe in conjunction with letting the unit warm up for 20 minutes is the key (at least in my case) to reducing VB. (Geeeze)

Couple things:

I did notice a bit of line twitter (combing artifacts) in the interlaced mode(vs. Progressive) but I’ll take that any day over VB.

For me - adjusting the flicker tweak (after 30 minute warm up) did nothing. My 700 arrived with all values at 29. This seemed perfect. I would adjust them - but kept going back to the original factory set values.

I’m receiving my DVI/HDMI cable today and will test my Momitsu with the 700 tonight to see what results I get. No telling.

Weird stuff.

Well I have been the proud ownder of the L500U and as of Monday I am the owner of the AE700. Here are the basic tweaks.

!. Flicker tweak. Get into the options menu and highlight OSD. Hold down the enter button for 3 seconds to get into the service menu Once you are there, highlight the flicker tweak and hit enter. You will see the screen go to different colors as you hit the up or down button. A value will be at the bottom of the display that can be adjusted righ or left. Every projector is different so adjust until you see the least flicker in each one of the color modes. This tweak has a lot of positives in eliminating many erroneous artifacts like peekaboo scanlines abd vertical banding. I want to emphasize older PlayStation2s seem to have a problem with the AE700 in showing massive VB when in progressive mode. My simple fix was to turn off the progressive scan on the PS2 altogether. It totally eliminated the VB. I feel the upscale from the projectors scaler is almost as goos as the progressive scan from the ps2. This seems to be working for some old DVD players as well.

2. Sharpness adjustment. Get into the service menu the same way and hit the service menu button. The up, down, left and right buttons will scroll through colors and adjustment screens. I found the crosshatch pattern in white to work the best for adjusting the sharpness. Get as close as you can to the screen or have someone help you at the screen. Turn the focus on the projector ring until it becomes perfectly sharp. If you want to defocus slightly for any screen noise, that is fine too. I personally find that setting the sharpness in the main picture menu to -2 does a better job at giving you a more filmlike picture without losing subtle details. If you notice a small amuount of red or or blue fringing, that is probably normal. Mine at 110" was less than a couple mm in red fringing. It does not affect the picture on any regular source. I hope this helps. ;)

_______THE AE700 TWEAK LIST_______

1) The most accurate colors (for movies) with the least effort can be achieved by using "Natural" picture mode with color temperature set to -1. This is documented here (http://babel.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=de_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fcine4home.com%2fTuning%2fPanaPTAE700%2fPT AE700Tuning.htm) after careful, sophisticated measurement.

2) You can access the service menu by:
Press Menu->Option
highlight "OSD"
Hold "ENTER" down for 3 seconds

There is an entry in the service menu called "Service Mode" which provides many helpful test images. They can be used to check for stuck & dead pixels, as well as panel alignment and other potential problems. [NOTE: There is also a second service menu which can be accessed by holding down "ENTER" for three seconds while the "Pic Shift" selection is highlighted in the first service menu. The limited settings in that menu do not seem as useful.]

3) FIRMWARE. Panasonic has released new firmware. Version 1.05 and higher fix several known problems. You can check your firmware version in the service menu under 'Self Check'.

The service menu differences between firmware 1.03 and 1.05 are underlined below:
FREEZE MSG (on)
HD OVERSCAN (off)
RUNTIME PRT (on)
FAN FULLMODE (off)
AUTO SETUP (normal)
SELF CHECK
SERVICE MODE
FLICKER ADJ
SD LEVEL (c)
525p OS (off)
HDCP1 (a)
HDCP2 (on)


Here's what the 1.03 menu looks like (Japanese model):
http://www.gordosoft.com/htpc/ae700servicemenu.jpg

4) Flicker tweak. This tweak is a response to vertical banding (VB) problems. VB consists of translucent vertical lines across your screen (like jail bars). They are often more noticeable when the content you are projecting consists of large, lighter, solid colors. In movies, VB could become apparent in a scene where smoke, fog, or sky fills the screen.

Look for "FLICKER ADJ" in the service menu. Settings vary unit to unit, but several people have experienced improved (lessened) VB after LOWERING the default flicker values even if you do not see flickering on them in this service menu. Make sure you adjust for the mode you are using, or all modes (desk/ceiling). My settings are Red&Blue=23, Green=26.

You can further reduce VB by switching the power off on the unit when you are done using it instead of leaving it in standby. Several theories have been proposed to explain why cutting the power lessens or eliminates VB, but no one is 100% sure why it works. I have hard wired my projector to a wall switch for this very purpose.

Several people have suggested scenes in movies to test your unit for VB problems. I have found nothing better/simpler than projecting a full screen solid color - several colors are good for this, I use a bluish gray, RGB=58/110/165

[NOTE: Many users have reported that "flicker" and also "VB" stabilize over time. After 200 hours I can confirm similar observations on my unit. There is less flicker and less VB now than when the unit was newer.]

5) Overscan is a problem for both VGA and HDMI inputs but can be easily eliminated with tweaking on the VGA input, and possibly eliminated on the HDMI input IF you have firmware version 1.05 or higher(?) - early reports say this is not the case however.

For VGA: Start by feeding the projector a standard 1280x720 resolution. Since this is not always a resolution that is included with most video card drivers, you may need to install the free Rage3D tweak utility or any similar utility to enable this resolution.

LINK to free Rage3D Tweak utility (http://www.rage3d.com/r3dtweak/dload/R3Dtweak39c.zip)

After you have switched to the proper resolution, run the "Auto" function found in the AE700's position menu to auto set the pixel timings, you may notice that your desktop image is still cropped on the left side. Reboot your machine at this point. For me it came up perfect after reboot, but you may need to re-run "AUTO" again after rebooting.

To confirm that everything is correctly set, you can use Mark Rejhon's test pattern explained here (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90884). Make sure you use the bitmap version (shown below) and tile it on your desktop. To do this, right click the image below, then choose "set as background (or wallpaper)". Minimize all windows, then right click your desktop, go into properties, then desktop, and choose to tile this image.
http://www.marky.com/misc/testpatterns/Digital_TestPattern_ByMark.bmp


[Note: the "AUTO" option in the position menu is NOT available on the HDMI input. As stated earlier, you can only fix cropping on HDMI if you have firmware version 1.05 or higher and even then maybe not :( .]

6) White flash. I have never seen this phenomena, but based on user reports it seems to only occur on the HDMI input (and possibly only when feeding an HDCP signal?). Panasonic has suggested that firmware versions 1.05 or higher should eliminate this problem.

The white flash problem may be linked to the scaler/video processor. There also may be a link to certain DVD players, specifically users have reported white flash problems with Denon players more than others, however the problem has been reported on MANY different brands AND on HTPCs (using DVI/HDMI). Other users have reported that they only see the white flash problem when scaling. When they send the projector a 1280x720p signal, there is no white flash problem. If you are using a home theater PC, you should try using FFDShow (http://www.free-codecs.com/FFDShow_download.htm) (its free) to scale the picture to 1280x720.

The white flash problem may also be the result of inferior cables. Some people using quality cables report no white flash issues (the ULTRALINK HDMIPRO-10M Platinum Series HDMI-to-HDMI Cable has been recommended for very long runs, but it will set you back a couple hundred $s. This cable was tested by an AVS forum member / cable testing nut, and was the ONLY non-optical cable he had tested that was capable of delivering flawless 1080p signals over such great length -- not that it matters to you since the AE700 can't even display 1080p :) but here's to future proofing your cabling and avoiding white flashes!). At least one forum member reported a big decrease in white flashes when he changed cables although it did not eliminate the problem completely.

A couple people reported white flash problems (apparently of a different variety) over analog inputs. One forum member has reportedly eliminated his analog white flash problems completely by taking the ASPECT RATIO menu item off AUTO and setting it to MANUAL. Note that this is not possible using the HDMI input. This analog white flash issue may result from the projector's software constantly monitoring the aspect ratio of the source material and getting it wrong occasionally as aspect ratio ID data is corrupted due to poor replay, signal loss/interference, or a damaged disk. The member reporting this believed the white flashes looked like the projector was losing horizontal lock. This seems to be a very rare problem, I have never seen it myself using the VGA input.

7) Peek-a-boo scan lines. Apparently this is some type of narrow horizontal line noise that can be seen during video which contains a lot of vertical movement (?). I have not noticed this problem on my unit. Not sure if there are any tweaks for it, but I will update if any are mentioned.

8) HDMI Issues . As already noted, you must have firmware 1.05 or higher to resolve picture cropping problems over HDMI, as well as other issues such as white flash. Early reports say cropping is still a problem on firmware 1.05 though.

Another issue many users have reported is excessive artificial sharpening by default on the HDMI input. You can reduce this by entering the standard "picture" menu and turning down sharpness as far as it will go.

I managed to totally and i mean totally remove VB and FPN by setting all numbers in the flicker panel the same.
It hasnt required adjustment for 3 days.Nor does the projector need to warm up.
To begin with i had some obviouse VB when i first got the AE700.
On a side note,has anyone succesfully ran the momitsu dvi connection in PAL at 50htz.

Mine are all the same and I have never seen VB except the one time on my ps2....

Thanks for making a separate "tweak" thread .. the main AE700 thread is too damn long!

My AE700 just arrived today, I will be setting it up shortly.

But you guys are freaking me out. I had an InFocus 4805, but I sold it because I didn't like the "rainbow effect." I thought the AE700 would be the answer to my problems, but now I'm freaked about the "VB" problem.

Should I do the tweaks you suggest first, or just wait to see if I even notice the VB problem before I do anything?

Thanks!

Originally posted by SteveCoug
Thanks for making a separate "tweak" thread .. the main AE700 thread is too damn long!

My AE700 just arrived today, I will be setting it up shortly.

But you guys are freaking me out. I had an InFocus 4805, but I sold it because I didn't like the "rainbow effect." I thought the AE700 would be the answer to my problems, but now I'm freaked about the "VB" problem.

Should I do the tweaks you suggest first, or just wait to see if I even notice the VB problem before I do anything?

Thanks!

IMHO, wait. Not all of us are "seeing" VB to the same degree. You can always tweak it later if you it does bother you. Just remember to record the values you started with from the factory so you can go back if needed.

Originally posted by aias10
I managed to totally and i mean totally remove VB and FPN by setting all numbers in the flicker panel the same.
It hasnt required adjustment for 3 days.Nor does the projector need to warm up.
To begin with i had some obviouse VB when i first got the AE700.

What are the numbers you are using on your flicker panel?

One other thing to note with regards to VB is that the flicker settings are different for different projectors. Some have noticed that setting flicker to the same value on all 3 screens produces the least VB but that does not work for me. I've tried it and I get more VB than I do setting each indivdual screen for the least amount of flicker. The green screen is the most sensitive and changing the setting up or down by just one causes flicker, but setting the blue screen to the same value already causes flicker and VB, so I would say just go to the individual screens and adjust for the least visible flicker. It also helps to slightly defocus your eyes and stay in the flicker adjustment screen for a little while as you're going back and forth between flicker settings as this will make your eyes a little more sensitive to minute differences in flicker and allow you to achieve the settings with the least amount of flicker. If your settings for all 3 screens match up good for you. If not, don't worry about it, settings for someone else's projector probably would not transalate to the best settings for yours.

On the note of tweaks for best PQ with least noise and higher color saturation though, I did find that using a clean AC power regenerator did improve PQ. If you're interested in audio/videophile reviews of the effect check this out.http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/ps-audio-power-plant-300.html

I'm using a Sola S4700 instead, and unlike the UPS units with the negative comments in the review (probably APC type units) this one does put out clean sinewave power, but doesn't cost as much as the Toshiba UPS mentioned.

My Flicker settings are 26B 26R and 28G

If I set the green any lower it begins to flicker a lot!

With the above settings I still some VB in certain scenes.

Should I just set them the same even if the green one is flickering? Or is my unit defective?


Jordan "AstroCat"

Originally posted by djbluemax1
On the note of tweaks for best PQ with least noise and higher color saturation though, I did find that using a clean AC power regenerator did improve PQ. If you're interested in audio/videophile reviews of the effect check this out.http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/ps-audio-power-plant-300.html

I'm using a Sola S4700 instead, and unlike the UPS units with the negative comments in the review (probably APC type units) this one does put out clean sinewave power, but doesn't cost as much as the Toshiba UPS mentioned.

Holy crap!

$800 for a UPS?

Yikes.

I guess I'm not that hardcore.

Originally posted by AstroCat
My Flicker settings are 26B 26R and 28G

If I set the green any lower it begins to flicker a lot!

With the above settings I still some VB in certain scenes.

Should I just set them the same even if the green one is flickering? Or is my unit defective?


Jordan "AstroCat"

Set each color for the least amount of flicker - don't worry what number they are. And no you don't want each to be the same - unless that exact same figure results in the least amount of flicker for each.

RE: VB -- I always try the settings people post -- I've tried setting them all the same, and at various higher and lower numbers. For mine, nothing beats the settings I already posted. VB is nearly eliminated, I can still see it faintly on the most demanding test images, but barely, and no one who wasn't looking hard for it would ever notice it.

Something scary happened tonight though. I was watching a DVD when suddenly a huge horizontal band of distortion came across the screen, pretty much across the center, taking up about 1/4 of the height. I had never seen anything like this -- it was constant, not temporary or flashing. I stopped the movie, got up, looked into the lens of the projector, and there was a bug INSIDE the lens crawling around frantically as if trapped on the glass and trying to get out. Man, that chamber must be really poorly sealed. I don't know what kind of bug it was, it was small and didn't look like it had wings, it could run fast, and looked white in color (it was definitely a bug tho, not a dust blob). Anyway, I was reminded of how the first computer "bug" occurred when a moth got inside the machine and they started seeing erratic results....

Seems to be gone now, and projector is working fine.

Man, that chamber must be really poorly sealed.

I assume this is bad news for those of us hoping the 700 was less susceptible to dust blobs?

OK - I concede. After additional testing for several days - Yes - I agree with the rest of you that VB can be reduced by powering down your 700 completely by using the master on/off switch (or by some other means). In doing this, along with switching to an interlaced signal - VB has been reduced (in my case) to just an occasional minor annoyance. VB was my only major complaint with the 700 (500 too) and now I’m extremely pleased with this unit (at least until the 900 arrives).

I want thank ZXlr8 for the osd info it made a big difference on my VB problems I'd say it's been reduced by 85% it's still a little visible especially on "blue screens" for example during the opening scene of "Finding Nemo"; one thing I'd like to find out is what the optimum settings for the Bravo D2 would be; when I go into the picture menu @ the bottom of the page it indicates that my picture mode is 750/60p when the D2 is sending 720p in its native resolution of 1056x768; if anyone out there has experimented with the custom settings in the D2 please share the info, I have a feeling this may further improve the picture quality of an already awesome PJ. for your info I'm using the 700u with Bravo D2 on a 92" Da-lite HC Matte White; I've also been told that part of the VB problem may be my HC screen...if true would someone verify that? and by the way I'm happy to have jumped into the HT ocean with such great group of Techies!! thanks to all of you!

I just set up my AE4800 and took a quick look at it. Have not had time to do any of the flicker tweaking yet, but I notice a surprising thing.

I am feeding my DVD to the PJ using component and my Dish Network TV to the PJ using S-Video.

When I switched between the component feed and the S-Video feed, the picture of the S-Video feed was way off to the right on the screen. I found that horizontal adjustment setting on the menu and moved the picture, but I had to do that max adjustment (I think it is "+32") to get the S-Video picture to be in approximately the same place as the component picture.

Has anybody else noticed this, or is my PJ messed up?

I had an Infocus 4805 that I just sold to buy this PJ and I could switch back and forth between component and S-Video feeds with almost no change
in horizontal picture position. I find it strange that the two video feeds don't match up on the AE700.

My own one get color uniformity problem, which setting of service mode may help to solve this?

TraderGordo:
I tried to use the powerstrip to correct the overscan but with no success. Any tips on this ? (I'm using a DVI>HDMI cable with ATI9600 fanless)


update:
just check a taiwan's web page and someone get the same problem. In the lower right corner, it's more red than the other page. It's more obvious when playing a full white screen.

my upper right corner is more red than the rest of the screen, but it's VERY slight. Only shows up on a totally white screen and even then it's tough to tell.

Originally posted by bapenguin
my upper right corner is more red than the rest of the screen, but it's VERY slight. Only shows up on a totally white screen and even then it's tough to tell.

This MAY have something to do with using lens shift and/or zoom. I moved my projector last night (finally finished my permanent shelf) and changed the shift and zoom. I'm using very minimal shift and very little zoom-in (not totally at the end of range). I too notice very slight red now but in my case its on the far left (not just in a corner). Like others have said, this is only noticible on an all white background. Arg, one more flaw?

I didn't spend time exparimenting with the shift to see if different positions improve this, and maybe this issue was there before and I just didn't notice it.

p.s. Another discovery I made last night -- for temporary or cheap DIY screens, a simple piece of hardboard painted with Kilz2 primer and nothing else gives a better picture than blackout cloth. Just my observation after covering half the hardboard screen with blackout cloth and comparing... I know I have to get real screen material some day soon....

Originally posted by TraderGordo
This MAY have something to do with using lens shift and/or zoom. I moved my projector last night (finally finished my permanent shelf) and changed the shift and zoom. I'm using very minimal shift and very little zoom-in (not totally at the end of range). I too notice very slight red now but in my case its on the far left (not just in a corner). Like others have said, this is only noticible on an all white background. Arg, one more flaw?

I didn't spend time exparimenting with the shift to see if different positions improve this, and maybe this issue was there before and I just didn't notice it.

p.s. Another discovery I made last night -- for temporary or cheap DIY screens, a simple piece of hardboard painted with Kilz2 primer and nothing else gives a better picture than blackout cloth. Just my observation after covering half the hardboard screen with blackout cloth and comparing... I know I have to get real screen material some day soon....

Honestly though, is it a flaw if you don't see it during normal viewing?

I'm looking for a good hardboard,foamboard to paint for a screen as I am using a blackoutcloth screen right now. Good to know I may see some improvment with it.

Home Depot has a 1/4" board with a white hard surface, I painted mine with Behr's Silverscreen (getting projector today, so not sure how it will perform yet)

Originally posted by bapenguin
I'm looking for a good hardboard,foamboard to paint for a screen as I am using a blackoutcloth screen right now. Good to know I may see some improvment with it.

Thanks Milehigh, I'll look for that this weekend.

Originally posted by bapenguin
my upper right corner is more red than the rest of the screen, but it's VERY slight. Only shows up on a totally white screen and even then it's tough to tell.

I have to agree with tradergordo on the "shift use" possibility; I had to remount my PJ due to the fact that my "hated yet beloved" D2 has now been shelf mounted below the PJ; that forced me to "shift down" approx 10% more than b4....then I noticed upon solid color screens a little "red Band" on the extreme far right side of my screen... not visible during playback of DVD's. "perhaps a nuisance but not a problem"

I decided to do the flicker tweak even though I have not noticed any VB. I figured it couldn't hurt. I don't really want to look too hard for VB because once I find a flaw like that, I tend to obssess on it. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss.

BTW, in doing the flicker test, I was easily able to see the flicker in the blue and green screens, but I couldn't see ANY flicker on the red screen regardless of what setting I used. So I decided to go with the same setting for red as blue, which is what most people have done. My settings ended up being Blue 23, Red 23, Green 26 -- which seems to be a very commmon setting.

I have 5 hours on my projector now and last night after watching it for about 3 hours, suddenly a black line appeared across the top of the screen,
about 4 inches from the top of the screen.

It looked like an entire row of pixels had gone out.

I was kind of freaked out, so I powered down the projector. Turned off the main power switch and then turned it back on.

The "black line" problem was gone.

Has anybody else experienced this? If so, what causes it?

Was the black line above the picture, or within it?

What's your source? cable?

The black line was in the picture, all the way across the screen. Like I had taken a black marking pen and drew a straight line across the screen. The source is DVD from a Zenith 318 with 1081i output using component cables.

I fired up the projector again today for about 15 minutes and did not see it.

Very strange. May be one of those strange "one time" things that does not happen again. I plan to put in a lot of time on the PJ this weekend, so I will see if it pops up again.


BTW, I am still playing with my flicker settings. I thought I had it down, but I still see occassional "peekaboo scan lines." That seems to be the only problem I have right now. I don't see VB, but I'm not really looking for it either.

But after getting rid of the headache-inducing rainbow effect on the InFocus 4805. this PJ is a very big improvement for me. I find it MUCH more
enjoyable to be able watch movies now without getting dizzy, headaches and/or sore eyes.

I know what you mean about DLP; I originally had purchased an Optoma Ezpro 739 frankly because it's cheap!!! but upon comparing it with the Pani even my buddy who owns a Sharp Xd50 wants to get a Pani now... what I enjoy most on the Pani is the Colors they are awesome! tonight I'll try the sharpness controls in the OSD menu; if you notice after tweaking the flicker it looses a little sharpness.... I'll post my results later on tonite...

Please limit this thread to tweaks only.



Stew

Can anyone list films that have bad VB? I know star wars is one, what are some others?

The opening scene to "Finding Nemo" should show VB, however if you see any just follow the directions on OSD menu and trouble should go away...

Also any "underwater" scenes .......

Originally posted by muadib
Can anyone list films that have bad VB? I know star wars is one, what are some others?

You had to ask...
U-571 (underwater scenes / sky blue scenes)
Das Boot (underwater scenes)
20,000 Leagues Under The Sea (underwater scenes)
Star Wars IV (Tatoonie sand dunes scene)
Star Wars "Attack Of The Clones" (Large ship landing in fog at beginning)
Pirates Of The Caribbean (opening fog scene)
Master And Commander (fog scene)
The Final Countdown (sky blue scenes)
The Thing (new anamorphic re-master - snow scenes)

Some of these show VB more than others and not everyone sees VB on some of these discs. Sometimes FPN is mistaken as VB as well.

U-571 is also a good disc for spotting peek-a-boo scan lines during the white explosive waves rising from the ocean due to the exploading depth charges.

Star Wars "Attack Of The Clones" (ship landing scene) is a good disc to see both FPN and VB at the same time. The camera pans slowly to the right showing stationary FPN and you can see VB (bars) in the foggy background as well.

TraderGordo, were you the one who was running the AE700 through a HTPC system? I read a post about someone who was, and I have mine setup that way as well (which by the way rocks! Gotta love a 7'x4.5' desktop, hehe... my daughter is dying to do homework on it :)

If it was you, I have some overscan, and JUST put powerstrip on it late last night, and I'd be interested how you adjust that out, via the AE700 menus, PowerStrip, or a combo...

Just got my Motorola DCT6208 HD/DVR cable box with DVI output. The HD image coming out of it (on certain channels!) is awesome! No problem sending the DVI signal over HDMI cable 23ft.

Oddly, the image position is off. On the "blue screen" I have it lined up perfectly, but on HDMI the bottom and right sides are scanning about 1" inside the screen border.

Ideas on how to correct the image position without disturbing the positioning of the DVD coming in on component? Down the road when I get an HDMI upconverting DVD player this won't be such an issue.

I tried using the settings from the post of TraderGordo.. Now I have no horisontal cropping but the vertical is still there. Still missing about 10-15 pixels in the top and bottom. Anyone have a clue of what the timings should be exactly with Powerstrip to get the complete image displayed?

Using a R9700 gfx card.

Is the flicker tweak supposed to eliminate "peakaboo scan lines"?

I don't see VB, but I am seeing scan lines pop up occassionally while I am watching movies.

I have a Zenith 318 upconverting DVD to 1080i and using component video connection.

I've tried several different flicker settings and it doesn't seem to matter, I still get the scan lines. Is there a tweak to prevent or reduce these scan lines, or are they are inherent with LCD projectors?

Originally posted by SteveCoug
Is the flicker tweak supposed to eliminate "peakaboo scan lines"?

I don't see VB, but I am seeing scan lines pop up occassionally while I am watching movies.

I have a Zenith 318 upconverting DVD to 1080i and using component video connection.

I've tried several different flicker settings and it doesn't seem to matter, I still get the scan lines. Is there a tweak to prevent or reduce these scan lines, or are they are inherent with LCD projectors?

Flicker tweak can only do so much. I had peek-a-boos on my 500 - and to about the same extent also have them on my 700. Sitting further back (2.0 - 2.5 X screen width) is the best way to eliminate them. For some reason peek-a-boos don't bother me that much.

Did anyone post the flicker tweak method in this thread, I don't remember seeing it here, but probably on the BIG consolidated thread. Might be a good idea to put it here for ease of use.

For tweakability, I purchased Zoomplayer Pro last night, but still have not received a registration code, they must do it manually.

Other than some overscan on my HTPC desktop, I have a beautiful picture out of the box, and haven't even ventured into the Panny menus yet, not even the regular menus, let alone the service menu :)

I don't own an AE700 but could those who do start reporting any tweaking which is found to eliminate the "White Flashes"? Thanx. Someone pick up on this if my post is erased. I'm only a lowly Panny 200 owner, and not an AE700 owner, but we're all curious to hear more about eh white flashes and any solutions that may exist :)

Originally posted by Milehigh
TraderGordo, were you the one who was running the AE700 through a HTPC system? I read a post about someone who was, and I have mine setup that way as well (which by the way rocks! Gotta love a 7'x4.5' desktop, hehe... my daughter is dying to do homework on it :)

If it was you, I have some overscan, and JUST put powerstrip on it late last night, and I'd be interested how you adjust that out, via the AE700 menus, PowerStrip, or a combo...

Center the picture as best you can using the AE700 position menu, then use powerstrip to remove any overscan (I posted my settings on page 1 of this thread). Its not hard to setup, you start with the standard 1280x720 HDTV signal, and then go into advanced timings, and use the "size" arrows to remove overscan. You can check "ultra fine granularity" to improve the sizing.

Common guys/gals....

AVS kindly set this up for tweaks only....let's honor that and put the chatter on the other thread. I for one do not want to have to read through a lot of conversation to get to the tweaks.

Thanks,
Bob

I got my AE700 on Friday, set up for HD is comcast HD set top box with DVI to HDMI cable. Everything looks beautiful, Discovery HD is like wow !
I was watching Sunday night HD football game and I noticed that all
close up shots were very sharp and nice, but all wide angle shots (when
actaul play will start with many players in one frame) were not that sharp
and even color were not very crisp, again if camera will switch to close up
shots then every thing will look very sharp and nice. Is there any tweak
specially for sports? Any help on this will be helpful.

I have access to several Kenko filters and tried the 77 mm FL-W (removes green tint) and W-10 (warming filter). This is similar to filters that I've used with AE-100 (though I have 55 mm size for older FP)

http://www.kenko-tokina.co.jp/filter/4961607152119.html

Using a Radeon 8500 HTPC and calibrated AE-700 using DMW monitor calibration tool. AE-700 in video mode (highest contrast setting but very high color temp). Adjusted contrast RGB and brightness RGB accordingly in advanced picture menu. Using W-10 filter only, I am liking the picture better compared with the no filter in cinema 1 mode or natural mode. Picture was punchier for lack of a better word. Also have to set the lamp from economy to brighter setting to make up for brightness loss. Adding FL-W filter on top of the W-10 already makes the picture too dim/too warm for me so I stayed with W-10 only.

I have watched several HD movies already and a few DVDs and tremendously enjoying this new FP. Will remove the filter later when the picture is already too dim (I did that with the AE-100 around 1,000 hrs.)

I'll try the FL-D filter later (another brand since oddly enough Kenko does not make FL-D) .

Overall, a fun experiment with the AE-700 and photography filters. Still have not tried the HDMI input due to unavailability of HDMI to DVI cables locally.

OK .. I guess this qualifies as a "tweak" ...

I have been trying different things to reduce the "peakaboo scan lines" problem and I found that if I set my DVD output to 720p the scan lines almost complete disappear compared to the 1080i setting I had been using.
However, this may be unique to my DVD player. I'm using a Zenith 318.

The scan lines had been popping up primarily in scenes switching quickly from very dark to bright light and vice versa.

BTW, if you happen to own the DVD of the movie "Rock Star" I found that the Everclear music video in the special features is a real torture test for scan lines because it cuts rapidly between very dark scenes and blinding white scenes. I used that as my reference for trying to solve this problem.

Originally posted by SteveCoug
OK .. I guess this qualifies as a "tweak" ...

I have been trying different things to reduce the "peakaboo scan lines" problem and I found that if I set my DVD output to 720p the scan lines almost complete disappear compared to the 1080i setting I had been using.
However, this may be unique to my DVD player. I'm using a Zenith 318.

The scan lines had been popping up primarily in scenes switching quickly from very dark to bright light and vice versa.

BTW, if you happen to own the DVD of the movie "Rock Star" I found that the Everclear music video in the special features is a real torture test for scan lines because it cuts rapidly between very dark scenes and blinding white scenes. I used that as my reference for trying to solve this problem.

The "peekaboo scanlines" are an artifact of the video processor in the projector falling over. So when you switched to 720p you eliminated the problem by feeding the unit progressive scan video. Simmilar things should happen if you feed it 480p.

If you feed it 1080i or 480i you will probabbly see scanlines and combing on ooccasion as the video processor gets confused.

I got my copy of Digital Video Essentials today, all set to go properly set the Contrast on my AE700. I have the regular VE intended for use with CRT-based displays and the procedure in there for digital displays is nearly useless.

Well, DVE is not much better. They still run you through the same procedures for setting CRT contrast, then tell you about all the reasons it is hard to set contrast on a "lamp-based display". Really it seemed to me like they love CRT FPJ and sort of "poo-poo" LCD and DLP projectors (bashing black level performance for example). They promised a special graduated test pattern that has steps from white to black. You can set both brightness and contrast together on one screen. However, I cannot find the test patterns in the DVD menu system. Once again, like with VE, DVE has the goofiest menu structure ever devised. It is supposed to "showcase" the use of the dual-menu capability of the DVD standard, but to me it's just plain obtuse and confusing.

Anybody else have DVE and know how to find the test patterns?

I'm getting a substantial improvement using PS Audio P300. Originally for audio, I finally got it connected after 75 hours of viewing. It's added to the effectiveness of the picture across the board. The colors are more vibrant and there is a greater consistency in the picture, like it's getting more pixels on the screen.

In addition, it has lessened the difference between high and low lamp. I found the low lamp to be too dull and now it seems almost irrelevant. One of the big improvements is that without running the projector through the P300 the picture looks almost flat and lifeless. It really is a nice improvement.

Now if I had to go out and spent $1400 for one of these after $2200 to get this improvement I would probably not go ahead. But if you happen to be an audiophile and this is within range then go for it.

I'm using a standard black round medium duty 25 ft. cord and it does the job. Originally, I was going to look into getting a customized power cord but the outlet on this is not standard. Anyway, the results are really quite nice.

I spent about an hour this evening trying the interlaced vs PS arguments out. For source, I've got a LiteOn 2001 and a JVC XV-N50 (both DVD players) and a Motorola HD DVR box. My LiteOn has been 'hot-rodded' to try and get a better picture. Component to the 700 (35ft cable).

My ONLY issue with the 700 is the 'peek-a-boo' (PaB) interlacing effect seen during vertical movement on the screen.

So...first..the HD box. Changed it between 1080i and 720p. Winner - 1080i. PaB was exactly the same between the two. Picture quality was 'soft' on the 720p vs very 'sharp' on the 1080i.

Second-JVC DVD player. Switched between 480p and 480i. Winner - 480i, just slightly. Less PaB on 480i. Very slight difference, though.

Last - LiteOn DVD player. 1080i, 720p and 408p. Winner - 1080i, although almost no difference in PaB between the 3 of them. The 1080i picture in general smoked the JVC player and had the least PaB effect.

So..in short, the player seemed to make more of a difference than the input signal type. For what it's worth. I did see my first VB tonight...but I was *really* looking for it, and don't know if I'd notice it just relaxing and watching a movie. Extremely slight to say the least.

(BTW...Anyone else have an obnoxious green right-edge stripe to their HD Monday night football game? Arrrgh. Only on MNF...every other channel looks great.)

John

I'm sure I will get a reputation for being cracked and seeing things that are not there, but....

When using the flicker tweak, if you ignore the flickering, do you see VB in the color itself? And if you do, have you had any luck adjusting the setting to reduce the VB without so much regard for the flickering itself. It seemed to lead to a better setting for me, but see first paragraph. The settings I ended up with were within a few clicks of minimal flickering, not a huge difference.... and this was on the green panel only...YMMV

For those of you with the color discrepensies from corner to corner, I found staying away from the zoom extremes helped me with that...

Thanks,
Nate

I observed the same thing. That's why I'm not sure what "flickering" really means in the flicker tweak menu. Factory default for me had the lowest "flicker" I could detect, but lowering them all gave best reduction in VB.



Originally posted by VornHune
I'm sure I will get a reputation for being cracked and seeing things that are not there, but....

When using the flicker tweak, if you ignore the flickering, do you see VB in the color itself? And if you do, have you had any luck adjusting the setting to reduce the VB without so much regard for the flickering itself. It seemed to lead to a better setting for me, but see first paragraph. The settings I ended up with were within a few clicks of minimal flickering, not a huge difference.... and this was on the green panel only...YMMV

For those of you with the color discrepensies from corner to corner, I found staying away from the zoom extremes helped me with that...

Thanks,
Nate

Originally posted by TraderGordo
Center the picture as best you can using the AE700 position menu, then use powerstrip to remove any overscan (I posted my settings on page 1 of this thread). Its not hard to setup, you start with the standard 1280x720 HDTV signal, and then go into advanced timings, and use the "size" arrows to remove overscan. You can check "ultra fine granularity" to improve the sizing.

When I tried the AE700 position menu, I could only move the screen from its default left of centre position 3 'points' right before it started clipping the right side of the image displayed. Is this normal?

Cheers, Kendrick

An additional note to the "flicker adjustment"...
It should be noted that flicker should be adjusted to minimum visible flicker on both "ceiling and table" modes to completely remove VB regardless of your personal set up.

An additional note to the "flicker adjustment"...
It should be noted that flicker should be adjusted to minimum visible flicker on both "ceiling and table" modes to completely remove VB regardless of your personal set up.

Originally posted by kpavey
When I tried the AE700 position menu, I could only move the screen from its default left of centre position 3 'points' right before it started clipping the right side of the image displayed. Is this normal?

Cheers, Kendrick

YES, the goal of the initial AE700 position adjustment is merely to center the image, then you bring the image fully onto the screen (hence no overscan) using powerstrip.

HOWEVER, the following information was just posted to the main thread (by AVS Special Member: RGB) and it SEEMS like a superior method. I haven't tried it yet, but I will play around with it tonight. Note: if you read Mark's thread regarding the test pattern, note that the AE700 has a "clock phase" setting in the position menu although according to RGB you may not have to touch it, which is great news! Also note that the HDMI input does NOT have the "auto setup" option in the position menu that you get with VGA.

Anyway, looks like Panny may have done some work on the AE700 to make it superior to other projectors in this regard, and most of us didn't know about it until now.

It was trivial to do 1:1 pixel mapping over RGB from a PC- just set the Radeon to 1280x720 @60 Hz and select the "Auto" function on the AE700 to auto set the pixel timings. We used the one pixel test pattern found here:LINK (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90884) tiled on the desktop, to verify 1:1 pixel mapping. [TG: make sure you use the bitmap version!]

I used the free Rage3D Tweak utility (http://www.rage3d.com/r3dtweak/dload/R3Dtweak39c.zip) to add 720p to the active resolution list. I still don't know why people use Powerstrip. Rage3D Tweak appears to do everything you'd need for custom resolutions, and it's free.

What I saw was a sight to behold. My previous two projectors, a Mits XGA and a PLV60, required a lot of pixel clock and phase adjustments to do perfect pixel maping with no noise or moire. The AE700's Auto function snapped the 1-pixel test pattern into perfect sync instantly- no clock/phase adjustments necessary to clean up even the residual sync noise/haze you see on most projectors via analog RGB. It looked like DVI to our eyes, and the other guys there are even more discriminating videophiles than me.

Moral of the story- if you want 1:1 pixel mapping on the AE700, use a high quality RGB analog cable.

For those who are experiencing improvment in Pic quality with Power Conditioners such as P300. Would you please specify what type of Connection your using. Cause if its DVI going native resolution then there is no way any Power condditioner can improve on the PQ, except maybe for more stable bulb output.

I've noticed that my flicker settings keep changing.

I am letting the projector warm up at least 30 minutes and then checking my flicker settings.

I keep having to change the settings to different numbers to eliminate flicker.

Has anybody else had the same experience?

I would think that once the flicker settings are set to minimum flicker, they should not change from day to day.

BTW, I am turning off main power every time.

Originally posted by SteveCoug
I've noticed that my flicker settings keep changing.

I am letting the projector warm up at least 30 minutes and then checking my flicker settings.

I keep having to change the settings to different numbers to eliminate flicker.

Has anybody else had the same experience?

I would think that once the flicker settings are set to minimum flicker, they should not change from day to day.

BTW, I am turning off main power every time.

My flicker settings are exactly the same as they were on day 1. I now have 40 hours on my 700.

Originally posted by THE_COW_IS_OK
For those who are experiencing improvment in Pic quality with Power Conditioners such as P300. Would you please specify what type of Connection your using. Cause if its DVI going native resolution then there is no way any Power condditioner can improve on the PQ, except maybe for more stable bulb output.

I'm using the PS Audio P300 along with a DVI to HDMI cord. There was a time when they said audio quality couldn't be improved with this approach too.

I think that idea is incorrect on both. I've seen a nice improvement in the light's power and overall punch to the colors on the screen. It's like the projector is able to do a little more of its best. I had hoped to get a special power cord for the projector, but that outlet is not standard so went with a 25 foot round black medium duty one.

I think the improvement is overall in the range of 15-20%. That's my eyes only.

Just got my 700. I didn't see what people were suggesting as initial settings. Obviously everyone needs to tweak there own, but it helps to see other owners setups. Anyone ?

eg.
mode: cinema, normal etc
lamp mode: hi or low,
brightness +/-
contrast +/-

etc...

Originally posted by TraderGordo
YES, the goal of the initial AE700 position adjustment is merely to center the image, then you bring the image fully onto the screen (hence no overscan) using powerstrip.

HOWEVER, the following information was just posted to the main thread (by AVS Special Member: RGB) and it SEEMS like a superior method. I haven't tried it yet, but I will play around with it tonight. Note: if you read Mark's thread regarding the test pattern, note that the AE700 has a "clock phase" setting in the position menu although according to RGB you may not have to touch it, which is great news! Also note that the HDMI input does NOT have the "auto setup" option in the position menu that you get with VGA.

Anyway, looks like Panny may have done some work on the AE700 to make it superior to other projectors in this regard, and most of us didn't know about it until now.

I want to clarify a few items.

First, the clock and phase adjustments I refer to are on the projector end. Most LCD projectors have Clock and Phase menu items for RGB analog inputs.

We used a Bettercables 10m DB15 M-M cable connecting the Radeon 9800 to the PC/DB15 RGB input on the AE700.

Also, after selecting the Auto function on the AE700 to establish "pixel lock" from the PC at 1280x720 60Hz, the image was 1:1 mapped, but significantly shifted to the left and some low, I believe. The amount of horizontal shift exceeded the adjustment range in the AE700's Horizontal movement option.

This was no problem, as I simply used the Display Properties, Settings, Advanced, Displays tab, Monitor, Adjustments tab to shift the 1:1 mapped 1280x720 pixel image around from the PC end, until there was breathing room in the horizontal position adjustment range on the projector.

Those going DVI would be well advised to consider the SLD Lindy range (10m minimum - up to 25m in length) - I have had mine cryogenically treated where I do my audio cables Down Under (10m length). It fits nicely into the Aussieduct 16x16mm conduit with snap over cover. Nice 'n neat. Very well made too ;) - locally sold for $145AUD (Lindy or at Hometheatrepc.com.au)

The PQ on DVI vs VGA is a noticeable improvement - blacks are considerably blacker and the display appears more saturated and dynamic as a result.

I used a Key Digital DVI-HDMI convertor at the PJ end to get the required HDMI input. This was cryo'd with the Lindy at the same time.

I locked the display using std timing from Windows for 1280x720 then went into Powerstrip to finesse the positioning and minimise cropping (using the Windows Tulips background with extended desktop). This new method using RGB's advice and the 1 pixel mapping looks interesting, must take a look at this over the weekend.

Had a quick look at the Star Wars Pod Race last night and was quickly drawn into the movie - very happy with the PQ at this stage. Also the VB seems to be gone completely using DVI when I had it only slightly on VGA.

Go DVI if you can!

Also I have found a source of variable speed drive power cabling which looks pretty nice. It's available at your electrical wholesaler. It comes in 1.5 and 2.5mm sq configs in three core and has a foil and braid shield with a clear covering - made by Aflex in Australia and sold by AWM for about A$5/m. Rated to 1000V I'm told. I'll be trying this on the PJ power lead once I purchase a length long enough. Will have to butcher the lead supplied to get the clover socket (PJ came with a few different powercords to suit other countries so I can sabotage one of them). My cable and audio experience suggests this will be a worthwhile tweak to the AE700.

RGB thanks for your input. I unloaded powerstrip, installed the RageTweak, rebooted, changed to 1280x720 which was now in the normal windows resolution choices. I set my background to the test pattern (which looked "messed up" as expected) and ran "AUTO" on the AE700. It did its thing, adjusted every setting in the position menu, and the test pattern looked like it is supposed to. Only problem was, like you just described, the picture was still cropped on the left side. I went into the position menu and it looked like the horizontal position adjustment had maxed out the adjustment range. But here's the interesting part -- for some reason I decided to reboot, and much to my surprise, the picture came up pixel perfect, (still no powerstrip), test pattern looking fine, AND no cropping. I was really surprised by this. So anyway, for those using VGA, this is the method that is easiest although picurewise, I don't think its any better than using powerstrip, and hopefully no worse -- looks pretty much the same to me either way although technically I think you get a true 60hz refresh with the RageTweak method as opposed to Powerstrips slighly lower refresh after custom timings are applied.

For those using HDMI, I believe powerstrip is still required to eliminate overscan/cropping issues as the "AUTO" option in the position menu is not available for you.


Originally posted by Rgb
I want to clarify a few items.

First, the clock and phase adjustments I refer to are on the projector end. Most LCD projectors have Clock and Phase menu items for RGB analog inputs.

We used a Bettercables 10m DB15 M-M cable connecting the Radeon 9800 to the PC/DB15 RGB input on the AE700.

Also, after selecting the Auto function on the AE700 to establish "pixel lock" from the PC at 1280x720 60Hz, the image was 1:1 mapped, but significantly shifted to the left and some low, I believe. The amount of horizontal shift exceeded the adjustment range in the AE700's Horizontal movement option.

This was no problem, as I simply used the Display Properties, Settings, Advanced, Displays tab, Monitor, Adjustments tab to shift the 1:1 mapped 1280x720 pixel image around from the PC end, until there was breathing room in the horizontal position adjustment range on the projector.

i am using HDMI and powerstrip and still can't solve the overscan problem. anyone else use HDMI and fix the overscan. pls provide the setting here. thx in advance.

sorry wrong thread

NFS...

Originally posted by TraderGordo
RGB thanks for your input. I unloaded powerstrip, installed the RageTweak, rebooted, changed to 1280x720 which was now in the normal windows resolution choices. I set my background to the test pattern (which looked "messed up" as expected) and ran "AUTO" on the AE700. It did its thing, adjusted every setting in the position menu, and the test pattern looked like it is supposed to. Only problem was, like you just described, the picture was still cropped on the left side. I went into the position menu and it looked like the horizontal position adjustment had maxed out the adjustment range. But here's the interesting part -- for some reason I decided to reboot, and much to my surprise, the picture came up pixel perfect, (still no powerstrip), test pattern looking fine, AND no cropping. I was really surprised by this. So anyway, for those using VGA, this is the method that is easiest although picurewise, I don't think its any better than using powerstrip, and hopefully no worse -- looks pretty much the same to me either way although technically I think you get a true 60hz refresh with the RageTweak method as opposed to Powerstrips slighly lower refresh after custom timings are applied.

For those using HDMI, I believe powerstrip is still required to eliminate overscan/cropping issues as the "AUTO" option in the position menu is not available for you.

Nice catch on the reboot to re-center the 1:1 pixel map 720p image over RGB analog. We were trying so many things that day that I didn't think of rebooting.

Even though I don't mind using RGB analog, I still think Panasonic needs to get dinged for putting the crop/overscan on HDMI inputs.

Be sure to email Panasonic tech support and tell them your concerns. Perhaps we can motivate them to do a firmware update.

At the very least, there should be an option to enable/disable overscan cropping, or adjust it.

I understand their logic- Panasonic probably assumes that all 720p and 1080i input signals are HDTV video, not a computer desktop GUI. Cropping a few lines from video isn't an issue, especially since most movies have black bars in the crop areas (1.85 or higher movies, which would be most).

But it's still no excuse not to allow the option to disable it- after all, this is 2004, not 1999. To assume no one would feed the AE700 a computer via HDMI is ridiculous.

Going back to my assumption re 720p and 1080i HDTV, what if you feed the AE700 1280x720 @72 Hz? The AE700 may not recognize the signal as a standard HDTV signal (which is 60Hz), and may not apply cropping over HDMI. I am assuming current video cards and drivers can go above 60Hz over DVI- I believe earlier driver revs on Radeons locked the DVI to 60hz max. IF the Radeon can't do over 60Hz on DVi, how about a GeForce?

Try different refresh rates from 70-85 Hz at 1280x720 via HDMI and see if the cropping is still there. If ou can go below 60Hz, like down to 48Hz, this may work also to eliminate the cropping at 720p.

Originally posted by Rgb
what if you feed the AE700 1280x720 @72 Hz? The AE700 may not recognize the signal as a standard HDTV signal (which is 60Hz), and may not apply cropping over HDMI. I am assuming current video cards and drivers can go above 60Hz over DVI- I believe earlier driver revs on Radeons locked the DVI to 60hz max. IF the Radeon can't do over 60Hz on DVi, how about a GeForce?

Try different refresh rates from 70-85 Hz at 1280x720 via HDMI and see if the cropping is still there. If ou can go below 60Hz, like down to 48Hz, this may work also to eliminate the cropping at 720p.

It's worth a try. I doubt the AE700 would treat the signal differently, and the down converted rate might not be desirable, but someone with HDMI should try and let us know.

Here's the resolution table from the owner's manual:

http://www.creationfaq.net/htpc/ae700Res.jpg

I would think that there would be a way to get the 1:1 mapping over HDMI without the ovescan. I definitely am surprised the 700 will sync to most signals coming out of the computer no matter the resolution. I would say when it run at 1920x1080, HDTV demos look almost as good as 1280x720 (1:1 pixel mapped) This is good news for those of us who play games on our HTPC. I have been using 1280x720 up until this time. I did notice some flickering when I am booting up the computer. It looks like blue horizontal lines across the picture flickering on and off. I am not sure if it is my video card, but it did not do this on my L500u. I think I would use RGB, but the picture is easily better on HDMI. I notice the difference. I think there has to be an easy way to eliminate the overscan. I do not like to use powerstrip if I can help it. Different drivers for the monitor in device manager also seem to help quite a bit. If we can get a driver that does all of the adjustments for us, Panasonic sould put it on their website and I think we would all be happy. I would imagine it would be simple as the Powerstrip software essentially does the same thing. Panasonic, DO YOU HEAR US?

RE: WHITE FLASHES

I want to make sure this is what I’m experiencing. Can anyone give me a more detailed description of what it looks like? Is it a “snowy” flash like a tape dropout - or does it have more of a wiggly “loss-of-sync” look to it? Or? How often does it occur? Once a movie? Or several times? Does it affect the whole image? Any pattern to it? Repeatability? HDMI only - or other inputs as well? Anybody check w/Panasonic repair yet? Any tweaks for it?

Sure would like to get to the bottom of this. It’s the only fly in my 700 ointment now.

Soooo close.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Rgb
Going back to my assumption re 720p and 1080i HDTV, what if you feed the AE700 1280x720 @72 Hz? The AE700 may not recognize the signal as a standard HDTV signal (which is 60Hz), and may not apply cropping over HDMI. I am assuming current video cards and drivers can go above 60Hz over DVI- I believe earlier driver revs on Radeons locked the DVI to 60hz max. IF the Radeon can't do over 60Hz on DVi, how about a GeForce?

Try different refresh rates from 70-85 Hz at 1280x720 via HDMI and see if the cropping is still there. If ou can go below 60Hz, like down to 48Hz, this may work also to eliminate the cropping at 720p.
1280x720 @ 72Hz is what I feed my AE700 with a DVI to HDMI lead. It still crops, and interestingly still displays as 750/60 no matter what refresh rate I use. It's definitely syncing to 72Hz, though, 'cos I'm getting stutter-free pans from NTSC film-based DVDs.

Originally posted by boarder
Just got my 700. I didn't see what people were suggesting as initial settings. Obviously everyone needs to tweak there own, but it helps to see other owners setups. Anyone ?

eg.
mode: cinema, normal etc
lamp mode: hi or low,
brightness +/-
contrast +/-

etc...

OK, here goes.

Mode, the two most color accurate modes out of the box are Cinema1 and Natural. with both, you should also set color temp at -1. I found Natural mode with color temp -1 the closest, which agrees with what they thought at cine4home.

Lamp mode hi/low really depends on you personally and how your PJ is set up, i.e. what screen, ambient light, etc. High mode has little to no effect on dark scenes, i.e. it does not make dark scenes brighter when the dynamic iris and lamp power thingy (can't remember what it's called) is on. It will make bright scenes a little brighter. As mentioned, it's a personal call depending on your setup and tastes.

Brightness and contrast are also highly dependant on your setup with respect to screen type and ambient lighting, as well as image source (DVD player, HD cable etc.). People don't tend to put up their settings for these because one person's settings are generally of no use to someone else with a different setup. A change in just one parameter in the same setup (like an increase or decrease in ambient lighting, or changing your DVD player to a different one) will require changes in the settings.

Basically speaking, right out of the box, Natural mode with color temp at -1 will give you fairly accurate color reproduction without any additional tweaking. If it seems too dull then you might either have a problem with ambient light, or your previous display was tweaked to oversaturate colors and you may need a while for your eyes to adjust to more accurate color reproduction.

Once you get past using just simple settings though, you need to get something like AVIA or DVE to calibrate your PJ. Optimally you could use something like Milori Colorfacts but that might be out of the range for most people. For best picture quality, EVERY signal input should be calibrated separately. For example, calibrate your DVD player input separately and save the settings to memory, calibrate your HD set top box separately and save those different settings to a different memory location, calibrate your XBox/PS2 input separately and save that to a different memory location etc.

Alternatively, some DVD players and HTPCs for instance have setting controls of their own and it might be easier to use one default setting at the projector and then calibrate the settings in the different devices to give a similar image when using the projector's default setting.

Originally posted by joffonon
1280x720 @ 72Hz is what I feed my AE700 with a DVI to HDMI lead. It still crops, and interestingly still displays as 750/60 no matter what refresh rate I use. It's definitely syncing to 72Hz, though, 'cos I'm getting stutter-free pans from NTSC film-based DVDs.

It may be synching but I doubt it is operating at anything other than 60 HZ. I would be surprised if the PJ does not strip and regenerate synch as anything beyond 60HZ begins to push the limits of the LCD cycle time - 16ms I believe.

If wished, I will delete this message respecting the original intent of this thread.

ted

Yeah I'm experiencing cropping top and bottom on my HDMI input. It's coming in from a PC's DVI port, I'm using a DVI-HDMI cable.

As for what the relationship between DVI and HDMI is... from what I can understand, HDMI is just an extended spec on DVI, namely adding support for audio, dropping pins from analog video (DVI-A), and more bandwidth for digital signals. I understand that the HDMI and DVI digital display pins are pin compatible, meaning just hook the wires directly together, no conversion is necessary.

Now, I've had many DVI-D monitors over the years (used to sell them), and every single one of them hooked up to the pc and was in native resolution on the first boot after I connected it... why? DVI allows the monitor to tell the pc it's native resolution, and the PC then puts it out.

Now here comes alot of speculation and conjecture on my part:

That begs the question: Why does the panny tell the PC it's doing 720 vertical, and then only display 700 (690 maybe)? It seems to me this can only be a bug in the HDMI negotiation circuitry on the Panasonic, and possibly an additional bug that the panny then sees that the signal it is getting is 720 high but STILL crops off the top and bottom when it knows it can display it.... We're not talking analog signals here, this is pure digital... it's like me telling you 720 and you saying yep, 700. That can only be a bug.

If there is a bug, that thought immediately makes me wonder if this thing is somehow flash upgradeable over the HDMI connection... if Panasonic can release a fix for it... maybe they can somehow get out a fix via a monitor .inf file, but that doesn't help people that have DVDs hooked up via the HDMI port.

Can anyone add to this or tell me where my logic is falling down?

Thanks,

Dan K

Originally posted by joffonon
1280x720 @ 72Hz is what I feed my AE700 with a DVI to HDMI lead. It still crops, and interestingly still displays as 750/60 no matter what refresh rate I use. It's definitely syncing to 72Hz, though, 'cos I'm getting stutter-free pans from NTSC film-based DVDs.

Yeah I noticed that bug as well... as for the synching... the panny has 3/2 pulldown reversal even on HD inputs, meaning that it detects and strips doubled fields to get rid of the stuttering, so it shouldn't matter what frequency you pump it, although doing this on the HDMI inputs is kinda strange...

I don't understand why people are trying to drive this thing with 1080i inputs from DVD either... it's like taking a 640x480 picture and blowing it up to 1920x1080, then shrinking it back to 1280x720... they'd be much better off just going directly to 720p right at the DVD player... every time you convert size and frequency, you lose. In fact I can't see a compelling argument for sending anything except 720p @ 50, 60, or 60.1 hz to the panny, with the possible exception that a particular source has an original content size of 1080, AND has a 720p scaler thats known to be weaker than the one on the panny.

lot of us have been looking forward to the new Panasonic PT-AE700E projector to hit the market with baited breath.
I have been a keen player in home theatre and projectors for some years and started with the Sharp XV370P ( bus from pixel city with only 100:1 contrast ratio ! ) but for those days it was a good entry level projector. Two to three years later upgraded to the Sharp XV3400S and had that for a number of years and sold it and had no projector for some months.

Panasonic hit the market with the PT-AE100 wide screen projector, saved up my pocket money and brought one had it for one year and was happy with it but it did have a couple of draw backs.
1) no smooth screen technology
2) only had factory preset colour temp settings ( grey scale )

One year later Panasonic brought out the PT-AE200, PT-AE300 I sold the 100 and upgraded to the 300, that was a BIG step the 300 had this NEW smooth screen technology and 800:1 contrast ratio and user colour temp adjustments this gave stunning results I was very impressed with this projector.

Panasonic then brought onto the market the PT-AE500E, I had to sell the 300 and upgrade again !! The AE500 brought a whole new standard to the $15000 and below projector market and is well known to be one of the better projectors with its 1300:1 contrast ratio ……. until the release of the PT-AE700E.
As per normal I sold the AE500 and now have the AE700, the following is a quick run down on the AE700 I hope this may help some of you in your decision to buy or upgrade to the PT-AE700.

As a happy AE500 owner if anyone asked me if there was any drawbacks on this projector this would be my short list.
1) VB ( vertical banding )
2) Zoom lens
3) Contrast ratio
4) WSS only works on S-Video and Composite video

Panasonic PT-AE700E
In unpacking the AE700 a very nice looking machine and is slightly bigger than the AE500 ( note the PT-AE700 does not include a carry bag. )

The back panel has many inputs TRIGGER CONECTOR ( outputs 12v when turned on ) HDMI IN ( an adaptor can be purchased to convert HDMI to DVI ), PC in ( RGB ) S-Video, Composite video SCART in ( this includes composite video and RGB ideal for running Sky digital in RGB ) and Component in.
With my system I run S-Video from Sky Digital, Component Video from a Panasonic SC-HT900 home theatre system and a HP notebook to PC in.

The first thing I noticed when turning the projector on was how quiet the fan was, I would have to say a good 50% quieter than the 100, 300 and 500 due to the fan outlet being at the front of the projector instead of the back.

The first thing I wanted to do is to fine tune the projector, set up the “flicker” adjustments grey scale etc, A big thank you to Peter Masson for lending me the Video Essentials test disc. The factory settings where a bit out ( this is not adnormal as the AE300 and AE500 where out too ) spent a couple of hours setting it all up and have got it close to smack on !!
Here are my settings

PICTURE MODE NORMAL

CONTRAST 0
BRIGHT +3
COLOUR -13
TINT ( NTSC ) -1
SHARPNESS -2
COLOUR TEMP 0
DYNAMIC IRIS ON

ADVANCED MENU

GAMMA HIGH 0
GAMMA MID 0
GAMMA LOW 0
CONTRAST R 0
CONTRAST G -4
CONTRAST B +7
BRIGHT R -2
BRIGHT G 0
BRIGHT B 0

OPTION

QSD ON
NR OFF
CINEMA REALITY OFF
BACK COLOR BLUE
WSS ON
FRONT/REAR FRONT
DESK/CEILING DESK
FAN CONTROL NORMAL
LAMP PWER HIGH

EXT OPTION ( press OSD for 4 seconds to enter this mode )

FREEZE MSG OFF
PIC.SHIFT ON
RUNTIME PRT ON
FAN FULL MODE OFF
AUTO SETUP NORMAL
FLICKER ADJ
-DESK BLUE 25
-DESK RED 24
-DESK GREEN 24
525i LEVEL C
625I LEVEL C

With the projector now set up we will now have a closer look at it

VB
A massive improvement here tested with a number of movies including Star Wars Jurassic Park 3 ( the birdcage seine where there is a lot of fog etc ) Lord of the Rings. Boy I had to look hard to see it !! on the AE300 and 500 was very noticeable

LENS
This is also a huge improvement, the PT-AE700 has a manual zoom ( 1-20 ) Manual focus F1.9-3.1, f21.7mm-43.1mm this makes the 700 much more user friendly for set up etc. I tried the projector in many different distances from the screen and using the zoom found the picture quality was no different ( on the AE300/500 I found it was critical in where the projector was located otherwise it compromised the picture quality )

LENS SIFT FUNCTION
This is a great addition to the 700 and works a treat It is a manual adjustment that moves the whole lens up/down and left/right, I tried this function in many locations and settings and found no loss in picture quality what so ever. ( the manual does state maximum picture quality is obtained when the lens is moved to the center )
I carried out these tests using the cross hatch test pattern in service mode on the projector and Video Essentials disc.
The PT-AE700 also has keystone correction vertical only.

CONTRAST RATIO
The PT-AE700 has a massive 2000:1 contrast ratio using the new Dynamic Iris system in the Picture adjustment the Dynamic Iris can be turned on and off, a number of tests where done with this and all I can say is this would be one of the biggest draw cards with the 700, with the iris turned on the blacks are black and the whites are white it is very impressive. With the iris turned off the contrast ratio would be aprox the same as the PT-AE500 maybe slightly better.

LUMINOSITY
The PT-AE700 has a 1 000 lm using a 130w UHM lamp the picture is brighter than the AE300/500 and has a lot of punch to the image, with lights on full in the lounge the image still looked fine where as the AE300/500 would be struggling under the same conditions.

WSS MODE ( WIDE SCREEN SELECT )
This is another big improvement, on the PT-AE500 WSS was only available with S-Video and composite video, on the PT-AE700 WSS is obtainable on S-Video, composite video SCART and component video.

COLOUR MANAGEMENT
With this you can adjust, save and retrieve the settings of any selected colour within the image, the remote control becomes a cursor that you can set the colour, tint and brightness which can then be saved into a log and retrieved at any time, the idea for this is to say “fine tune” the skin tones without affecting any other colour. The colour management works very well and is a good tool for additional fine tuning.

CINEMA REALITY
The PT-AE700 has Cinema Reality mode ( S-video/video/PC/HDMI/525i (480i), 625i (576i), 1 125 (1 080)/60i and 1 125 (1 080)/50i YpbPr only )
ON : Set this to on changes to 24 frames per second to project the movie source faithfully.
I have tried this function and can not see any change in picture at this time so for the tests have turned it off.


CONCLUSION
I would have to say the Panasonic PT-AE700 is yet another big step forward and is getting closer to the “perfect projector” producing a stunning picture that is pleasing to the eye. For those of you who wonder if it is worth upgrading from the PT-AE500/300 in short yes it is the contrast ratio, VB and lens alone is worth the jump.
At a RRP of NZ$4995 this projector would rival any other projector under the $15000 mark.

Cheers

Mike

Guys, have one question about the AE700 everything is working fine and I am still very happy with the projector except for one small thing, now I am running a Panasonic HT900 home theatre system that can run interlace on PAL and Progressive/interlace on NTSC, now if I run Progressive scan on NTSC into the AE700 at component video, there is bad patterning on the image, the AE100/300/500 did not suffer from this, rang Panasonic NZ and they had not heard of the problem.
Could someone who owns a 700 and has a DVD player that can run progressive scan on NTSC check this would be very interested in the outcome.
Look forward to any replies

Mike

Mike what does the pattern look like?

Originally posted by Mike the Tike
I carried out these tests using the cross hatch test pattern in service mode on the projector and Video Essentials disc.
Cheers

Mike

Nice review.
How do I find the "cross hatch test pattern in service mode" on the projector ??? Didn't know it had one.

Hate ta say it but I think this thread is becoming frayed.

ted

Originally posted by John Ballentine
Nice review.
How do I find the "cross hatch test pattern in service mode" on the projector ??? Didn't know it had one.

bring up the option menu on the remote control
Highlight OSD
Hold down the enter button on the remote for 5 seconds or so and you'll be in the 'EXT OPTION' menu.

now select 'service mode'

there are various test patterns here...

press up/down to switch test pattern till you get to crosshatch...
press left and right to switch colors.

Dan K

Originally posted by boarder
... it helps to see other owners setups. Anyone ?

eg.
mode: cinema, normal etc
lamp mode: hi or low,
brightness +/-
contrast +/-

etc...

After over 70 hours of watching DVD from an interlaced component feed, I've more or less settled with the following (basic setting setup using THX Optimiser found in THX DVDs, then eye-tweaked for the color temp & advanced color over a series of movies)

PICTURE MODE: NORMAL

CONTRAST 0
BRIGHT +2
COLOUR -11
TINT ( NTSC ) +5
SHARPNESS 0
COLOUR TEMP -1
DYNAMIC IRIS ON

ADVANCED MENU

GAMMA HIGH 0
GAMMA MID 0
GAMMA LOW +3
CONTRAST R 0
CONTRAST G -2
CONTRAST B -3
BRIGHT R 0
BRIGHT G -2
BRIGHT B -5

OPTION

QSD ON
NR OFF
CINEMA REALITY: ON
BACK COLOR: BLUE
WSS: ON
FRONT/REAR :FRONT
DESK/CEILING :CEILING
FAN CONTROL: NORMAL
LAMP PWER: LOW

My screen used is Screen-Goo painted with Digital Grey. Zoom at Max with max lens shift.

I've noticed that the zoom significantly affects the color temp & uniformity. Especailly when zoomed to the minimum picture size, the whole image takes on a pinkish cast, which slowly shifts towards one corner when zooming to bigger picturre size, until eventually it settles to a pinkish cast on one corner and a cyan cast on the opposite corner (related to lens coating problem?). I find this quite visible when watching B&W scenes (eg. Initial parts of Kill Bill Vol2) or low color contrast scene (eg. night & indoor scenes in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within). Anyone else bothered with this uniformity issue? Is this normal for a Front Projector?

I do not know much about the gamma function for this projector. Does anyone have an idea if it can be used to improve black detail?

Originally posted by HMenke
I do not know much about the gamma function for this projector. Does anyone have an idea if it can be used to improve black detail?

The gamma is linked to the Auto Iris functionality and would be changing with the screens APL - its the other link in the successful implementation of an Auto Iris function - without being dynamic the blacks would get mushy and the whites might clip. This is assuming you utilize auto. Calibration might be worthwhile as well as trying another gamma curve.

will delete if felt necessary,
ted

It Looks like combing artifacts ( pattening lines in the back ground ) very noticable !!

Mike

Originally posted by Mike the Tike


PICTURE MODE NORMAL




Originally posted by AVGadgetBoy
[B]

PICTURE MODE: NORMAL




You're both using Normal as opposed to Natural? Are these completely light controlled environments? Screen type/gain? Size of screen?


Thanks,

Stew

Originally posted by Stew4msu
You're both using Normal as opposed to Natural? Are these completely light controlled environments? Screen type/gain? Size of screen?


Thanks,

Stew

Natural mode's contrast seem too low for me (picture is not "punchy" enough).

Video mode would give even higher brightness than Normal, but it has too much blue (will problably try it if I can get my hands on the correct filter to follow Cine4Home's tweak)

Dynamic mode is definitely a no-go for me as there appears to be additional sharpening that makes edge-enhancement artifacts more apparent.

With reference to my earlier post about the RGB settings, I just tried something last night..... instead of lowering the Blue & Green levels (to achieve a warmer picture), I kept Blue at 0, slightly increased Green, and ramped up Red to about +10 or so. I think this is helping to even out the pinkish corner uniformity issue as it appears now that the pinkish coloration has spread out further to cover more of the center area (but still not quite uniform enough though).

My next plan is to find a suitable filter to try Cine4Home's tweak.

Btw, my viewing environment has minimal~no ambient light source but with light coloured walls & flooring. Screen is a Goo Digital Grey painted MDF board (See attached file- unzip & view in browser if you don't have Flash player).

Hi TraderGordo,
I'm trying to use the Rage3d tweak instead of powerstrip, but when
I switch to 1280 x 720@60hz under the custom resolution tab , I only
get a blue screen from my projector (AE 700). I'm wondering if you can help
me out. Thanks a lot.

eme1

Originally posted by TraderGordo
RGB thanks for your input. I unloaded powerstrip, installed the RageTweak, rebooted, changed to 1280x720 which was now in the normal windows resolution choices. I set my background to the test pattern (which looked "messed up" as expected) and ran "AUTO" on the AE700. It did its thing, adjusted every setting in the position menu, and the test pattern looked like it is supposed to. Only problem was, like you just described, the picture was still cropped on the left side. I went into the position menu and it looked like the horizontal position adjustment had maxed out the adjustment range. But here's the interesting part -- for some reason I decided to reboot, and much to my surprise, the picture came up pixel perfect, (still no powerstrip), test pattern looking fine, AND no cropping. I was really surprised by this. So anyway, for those using VGA, this is the method that is easiest although picurewise, I don't think its any better than using powerstrip, and hopefully no worse -- looks pretty much the same to me either way although technically I think you get a true 60hz refresh with the RageTweak method as opposed to Powerstrips slighly lower refresh after custom timings are applied.

For those using HDMI, I believe powerstrip is still required to eliminate overscan/cropping issues as the "AUTO" option in the position menu is not available for you.

An good mode for sports is Cinema2. It is brighter than Natural but looks more "natural" than Normal. Tonight I am watching the Pats-Bills on ESPNHD and it looks awesome.

Does anyone else notice that the green panel seems to be the main culprit behind the VB? In the flicker tweak on my machine you can eliminate visible banding on the red and blue, but there is always a hint of it remaining on the green. The pattern of VB seen on the green looks a lot like the pattern of VB seen on the projected image.

Originally posted by eme1
Hi TraderGordo,
I'm trying to use the Rage3d tweak instead of powerstrip, but when
I switch to 1280 x 720@60hz under the custom resolution tab , I only
get a blue screen from my projector (AE 700). I'm wondering if you can help
me out. Thanks a lot.

eme1

That is odd. What video card? Did it work with powerstrip? Try running "auto" on it even though its blue screened just to see what happens. I don't know why you would be getting a blue screen unless your video card is somehow not sending (or incapable of sending) a true 1280x720 60hz

I have sacrificed brightness for increased contrast (I think). I noticed that my W-10 filter + AE-700 was too green for my taste so I added the FL-W filter. Significant loss in brightness but still very watchable. I will buy an adapter ring later so it would be very easy to remove the 2 lens if ever I want to watch with a little bit ambient light.

HTPC as source
Using video mode
70 mm Kenko W-10 filter (Blue filter)
70 mm Kenko FL-W filter (Green filter)
Brightness +2
Contrast +2
Contrast RGB (R=+3, G=+2, B=+3)
Brightness RGB (R=+3, G=+2, B=+3)
Dynamic iris on
Normal lamp mode
Pixel perfect using method shared above (auto mode, 1280 x 720p, reboot)

I am now on 50 hrs on my AE-700.

For those of you who play games alot on their computer, here is something I noticed last night. I can get most resolutions to display from the computer via HDMI. I get flashes or flicker when I try to use anything higher than the native res of the projector. I decided to use the native res for all of my games. I did not get one flicker all night last night when I was playing. You can get them to display at 1280x720 by adjusting a file in each of the games. I did it by referencing Tiger Dave' widescreen gaming list. It was invaluable for this. I run Far Cry and Doom 3 with ALL settings maxed it looks beautiful at 1280x720. If you need to adjust the res in the game first, you can see it will default to 640x480 the first time on most games. DVI via HDMI is now no longer a problem for me. I can play whatever game I want at 1280x720 and it really looks awesome. I am in love again. There was a time when I working on the AE700 last week where I felt the picture quality advantages were being outweighed by the headache of a setup. I am finally happy to say I see no problems now with my projector. It took alot of work, but I will now try to leave it alone. Yeah right.....

Originally posted by HMenke
Does anyone else notice that the green panel seems to be the main culprit behind the VB? In the flicker tweak on my machine you can eliminate visible banding on the red and blue, but there is always a hint of it remaining on the green. The pattern of VB seen on the green looks a lot like the pattern of VB seen on the projected image.

Yes, I have noticed this. Getting the green to stop flickering is the toughest of all the colors in the flicker tweak screen. I can get the blue and red completely flicker-free, but the green is always flickering a tad.

Adjusting color:

Ok, so I am pretty clueless when it comes to adjusting color on this projector. I am using the Normal mode, because Natural just isn't bright enough for my setup. The colors are clearly off. A lot of people's lips are too pink, and some people's faces look like they are a bit sunburnt.

I've played with the tint, but adjusting it so that peoples faces look right screws up the color in everything else. I've also messed around with the color temp, but I can't seem to find the right setting.

What settings should I be messing with to reduce the over-pink hue of the projector in Normal mode? I would have thought taking some red out or lowering the tint would do this, but it is clearly more complicated than that.

Originally posted by JamesAHall
Adjusting color:

Ok, so I am pretty clueless when it comes to adjusting color on this projector. I am using the Normal mode, because Natural just isn't bright enough for my setup. The colors are clearly off. A lot of people's lips are too pink, and some people's faces look like they are a bit sunburnt.

I've played with the tint, but adjusting it so that peoples faces look right screws up the color in everything else. I've also messed around with the color temp, but I can't seem to find the right setting.

What settings should I be messing with to reduce the over-pink hue of the projector in Normal mode? I would have thought taking some red out or lowering the tint would do this, but it is clearly more complicated than that.

When using Normal mode - don't be afraid to turn your color down 6 or 8 notches. Try it at least. Once you do this - color temp at "0" should work fine. or maybe - 1 for B&W films.

Here are my current settings for all picture modes on Component input calibrated with DVE:

Video Mode
Contrast 0
Bright -5
Color -6
Tint 0
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Natural
Contrast 0
Bright -5
Color 0
Tint -2
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Normal
Contrast 0
Bright 0
Color -8
Tint +1
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Dynamic
Contrast 0
Bright 0
Color -5
Tint +2
Sharp -9 (more agressive deafult edge enhancement this mode)
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Cinema1
Contrast 0
Bright -1
Color -2
Tint 0
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Cinema2
Contrast 0
Bright -2
Color 0
Tint 0
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Cinema3
Contrast 0
Bright -2
Color +10 (!)
Tint -6 (!)
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Hope this helps.

Thanks guys. I will definitely try turning down the color a bit in Normal mode.

I'm becoming more and more a fan of Cinema2 mode as well - might want to try it out as well.

HMenke or anyone, how are you getting -7 for sharpness? On my japanese ae 700 for some reason the sharpnesss (5th down right) only goes to -2

Originally posted by HMenke
Here are my current settings for all picture modes on Component input calibrated with DVE:

Video Mode
Contrast 0
Bright -5
Color -6
Tint 0
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Natural
Contrast 0
Bright -5
Color 0
Tint -2
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Normal
Contrast 0
Bright 0
Color -8
Tint +1
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Dynamic
Contrast 0
Bright 0
Color -5
Tint +2
Sharp -9 (more agressive deafult edge enhancement this mode)
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Cinema1
Contrast 0
Bright -1
Color -2
Tint 0
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Cinema2
Contrast 0
Bright -2
Color 0
Tint 0
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Cinema3
Contrast 0
Bright -2
Color +10 (!)
Tint -6 (!)
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Hope this helps.

Amazing... for Normal and Cinema 1 - these are EXACTLY the same settings I use. ( I use component input and DVE as well)

I don't use Cinema3
But - look at these settings! (Guess that's why I don't use it.)
Color +10 (!)
Tint -6 (!)

HMenke:
Have you changed any of the factory settings in the "Advance Menu" for:

Gamma R, G, B?

Contrast R, G, B?

Bright R, G, B?

Originally posted by HMenke
Here are my current settings for all picture modes on Component input calibrated with DVE:

Video Mode
Contrast 0
Bright -5
Color -6
Tint 0
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Natural
Contrast 0
Bright -5
Color 0
Tint -2
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Normal
Contrast 0
Bright 0
Color -8
Tint +1
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Dynamic
Contrast 0
Bright 0
Color -5
Tint +2
Sharp -9 (more agressive deafult edge enhancement this mode)
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Cinema1
Contrast 0
Bright -1
Color -2
Tint 0
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Cinema2
Contrast 0
Bright -2
Color 0
Tint 0
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Cinema3
Contrast 0
Bright -2
Color +10 (!)
Tint -6 (!)
Sharp -6
Color Temp 0
Dyn Iris On (low lamp)

Hope this helps.

You've probably addressed this somewhere else, but may I ask what type/size your screen is and what your room conditions are?



Stew

Originally posted by amrod
HMenke or anyone, how are you getting -7 for sharpness? On my japanese ae 700 for some reason the sharpnesss (5th down right) only goes to -2

The Sharpness control is a bit odd - the adjustment range depends on the picture mode and on the input. So for example on Component for a given mode, Sharpness can go down -6 but on HDMI it can only go down to -4. An extreme example is Dynamic on Component: it goes to -9. I think there are some combinations where it only goes to -2.

Reminds me of This is Spinal Tap: "But this one goes to eleven!"

Originally posted by John Ballentine
HMenke:
Have you changed any of the factory settings in the "Advance Menu" for:

Gamma R, G, B?

Contrast R, G, B?

Bright R, G, B?

Amazing... for Normal and Cinema 1 - these are EXACTLY the same settings I use. ( I use component input and DVE as well)

I don't use Cinema3
But - look at these settings! (Guess that's why I don't use it.)
Color +10 (!)
Tint -6 (!)

I have a feeling we have very similar preferences in our video! Even at the above settings, Cinema3 is still not very pleasing. Seems to be plagued by red push. I am not interested in trying to "fix" it when there are other much better modes. It would be cool if you could bypass the "bad" modes or if there turn out to be discrete codes for the modes.

I have not ventured into the Advanced Menu other than to study it. I am very interested in the gamma but I have to admit I don't understand the operation of those controls and what they do yet. I have a feeling the gamma settings might yield some dividends in improved black detail and in minimizing any white crush that may appear in some high contrast scenes. I would probably move all three colors together. I am a bit reluctant to vary settings for the individual colors because I am totally pleased with the overall color balance.

Did you notice on DVE that this PJ does not do well holding black at black when there is a high average picture level? As a result, I used the high average test pattern for setting the brightness. It was tough because neither of my DVD players pass 0 IRE. I used the graduated grey scale pattern to check the contrast. Seems that contrast is one setting that is best left at default 0 in all modes.

Tuesday morning from 8:00-8:10am eastern on HDNet they are broadcasting HD test patterns for 10 minutes. I have them set to record on my DVR. Tomorrow night I will use them to verify whether or not my HDMI settings should be the same as my component settings.

Originally posted by Stew4msu
You've probably addressed this somewhere else, but may I ask what type/size your screen is and what your room conditions are?

Screen size: 44H x 79W = 90" diagonal
Screen material: blackout cloth, 2-1/2" black velvet border
Room dimensions: 10-1/2' x 14-1/2'
Zoom: 1.34x
Throw: 13-1/2'
Lens shift: minimal
Keystone: none
Seating distance: 10' (1.5x screen width)
Ambient light: none
Walls: dark flat olive green
Ceiling: flat white
Carpet: light beige

HMenke

I found using DVI to HDMI with a Accupel HD signal generator, the AE700 holds black level very well. So if you switch inputs from component to HDMI, you might want to recheck this. This is with dynamic Iris "on".

When I get a chance, I'll see how the component input handles black levels with changes in APL. I don't think it's affected by the signal source, but it would be interesting to verify that.

Originally posted by JimP
I found using DVI to HDMI with a Accupel HD signal generator, the AE700 holds black level very well. So if you switch inputs from component to HDMI, you might want to recheck this. This is with dynamic Iris "on".

When I get a chance, I'll see how the component input handles black levels with changes in APL. I don't think it's affected by the signal source, but it would be interesting to verify that.

I look forward to your results on this.

When I get home tonight I should have some HD test patterns to play with that will be recorded on my DVR to check the HDMI input.

When I set the brightness control (black level) on Component input with DVE, at first I used the low APL pattern. Since my DVD player doesn't pass 0 IRE, I used the method where you set the 7.5 IRE bar to be barely visible against the background. But when I switched to the high APL pattern, the 7.5 IRE bar was totally washed out. Switching between the two patterns, it was clear that the black level was jumping up on the high APL pattern. I had to bring the brightness control up a couple of notches to make it barely visible again. This is why I am interested in the gamma controls. I am wondering if the low gamma control can have some effect on the ability of the PJ to hold black.

HMenke

Gamma should be helpful for adjusting mid tones. Probably isn't going to affect "black level".

Did you have a similar problem with this DVD player and another display?

Yes, my DVD player (Pioneer DV-563A) will not pass 0 IRE to my 32" CRT either. It's inconvenient but not insurmountable.

If you know, what exactly is the gamma and how does adjusting it affect the picture?

Thank you thank you thank you to whomever recommended *slightly* de-focusing the projector to remove the 'peek-a-boo' scan lines.

The PaB issue was my only 'problem' with my 700...until last night, when I just very slightly unfocused the projector. *poof*...no more scan lines. It was like magic. Spent an hour and a half re-watching my favorite movie scenes and looking for scan lines. Saw, maybe 2 scenes in the entire hour and a half that caused the lines to appear for a fraction of a second. (This is opposed to them contantly being seen in every scene that had viertical motion in it). To say I'm thrilled would be a huge understatement. The images is just stunningly, amazingly, fantastically 'film-like'. Sorry for the cheese.

Also...color wise, I've done some fiddling, but I'm pretty happy w/ the default settings when watching HDTV. Some really minor tweaks, but nothing worth posting. However, my DVD player's picture (LiteOn 2001) has been a bit 'dull' looking. I increased the 'saturation' setting on my player two notches and *pow* another big jump in improvement. Finding Nemo now looks like it's supposed to.

Good evening for me - two for two last night on the tweaking experiments.

Originally posted by HMenke
Yes, my DVD player (Pioneer DV-563A) will not pass 0 IRE to my 32" CRT either. It's inconvenient but not insurmountable.

If you know, what exactly is the gamma and how does adjusting it affect the picture?

Gamma on my Sony GWIII works this way. By changing the gamma number in the service menu, you could lighten the range of shades between absolute black and absolute white, but not absolute black and absolute white. The amount of change is greater in the darker shades and as you progressed to the lighter shades, the amount of change lessens. By increasing and decreasing gamma, you affect the amount of difference.

I think in theory, gamma adjustments are intended to give you the tool to adjust the amount of difference between each IRE level so that your display matches what was originally recorded.

One thing that I'd like to mention is that I'm not so sure that a perfectly calibrated display according to signal generators, O' scopes, etc. actually create a image that is the way we perceive real life. i.e. in an outdoor scene under bright light, we really don't see shadow detail in some rocks. To adjust your display to see this detail would also remove some of the "punch or snap" you see. With this statement, its almost like I'm inviting a huge discussion on calibration, but I'm not. All I'm saying is to take a look at your picture and ask yourself if it looks real or not.

JimP,

I think I am following you on this. If I can re-state your explanation (to see if I am on track with you):

There is a fixed black and a fixed white (as a given). With gamma in the "center", essentially you have 50% gray in the middle of the range. If you "lower' the gamma, you are moving the 50% gray point down scale more toward black. Therefore, there are more "graduations" of tone between that 50% gray point and white, and fewer between that 50% gray point and black. Is that right?

HMenke

Close. :)

Visualize a graph with XY coordinates. Let white be 10, 10 and black 0,0.

There is a diagonal line from 10,10 to 0,0

White(10,10) is where the diagonal line is locked. By changing the gamma, you changed the slope. Absolute black stays at 0,0.

Hey, this is confusing to me. If this doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try again.

Ahh..OK, got it. Thanks for the explanation!

HMenke: The washout of the black bars in the higher APL pattern is unlikely to be caused by a float in black levels per se, but rather washout from low ANSI contrast in the room. I would probably maximize the available on/off contrast you have by using the lowest APL pattern you can to set black levels, though you may sacrifice some shadow detail in higher APL scenes due to your room and projectors ANSI limitations.

amrod,
6th down right on the japenese model is color temperature, not sharpness. It looks the same as the adjustments on the English model, but in Japenese.....
you probably mistook 6th for 5th.....

Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
HMenke: The washout of the black bars in the higher APL pattern is unlikely to be caused by a float in black levels per se, but rather washout from low ANSI contrast in the room. I would probably maximize the available on/off contrast you have by using the lowest APL pattern you can to set black levels, though you may sacrifice some shadow detail in higher APL scenes due to your room and projectors ANSI limitations.

Hmmm...that's a pretty interesting point. I can see how the high APL brightness could be reflected from the room back onto the screen to give the impression that the black level jumped up. Therefore, as you say, I should go back to the low APL pattern, set black for maximum low level detail, in order to better appreciate low APL program material. Under high APL material, shadow detail will be overcome by room reflections anyway, so there's no point to setting black using the high APL pattern.

Interesting...I had read that the Sony black screen primarily benefitted rooms with ambient light, however given the above discussion, it could also benefit a room with no ambient light by nevertheless suppressing room reflections off the screen.

I am totally guessing.

Use the left right up and down arrows. Then toggle colors with the round button in the middle of the arrows.

Why do you assume you can adjust convergence? I dont think you can. There is no facility to move the 3 color panels. Think about it. Do any LCD projectors offer this facility ? Not that i am aware of.

In essence this pattern just shows you its out but doesnt let you fix it :)

Here's a question, has anybody tried the advanced color options? You know the whole "cursor" thing? I'm curious if anybody has figured out how to use this properly, and any advantages of it. I only played with it for a moment, and ended up giving my whole screen a nice "red lens" look. LOL.

Originally posted by Durabolin
Why do you assume you can adjust convergence? I dont think you can. There is no facility to move the 3 color panels. Think about it. Do any LCD projectors offer this facility ? Not that i am aware of.

In essence this pattern just shows you its out but doesnt let you fix it :)

You are correct.

A service tech must open the projector and turn adjusment screws on the LCD panel block (see the cine4home website for a pic of the AE700 LCD block disassembled) to physically reposition the LCD panels.

The point is to display the test pattern while this adjustment is being performed.

You could try it yourself, but you would most likely void your warranty, of course ;).

Bad convergence is a warranty call issue. Call Panasonic service and make a warranty claim. You will need to ship the unit to Panasonic service to converge properly.

I did this on both (non_panasonic) projectors I have owned.

It is a common issue for LCD's, but the most easily fixed.

Originally posted by Rgb
Bad convergence is a warranty call issue. Call Panasonic service and make a warranty claim. You will need to ship the unit to Panasonic service to converge properly.

Rgb, how bad is considered bad? On my unit I have a lot of blue fringing on the right and green fringing on the left, with red fringing toward the bottom. In the middle it looks good.

What does the dynamic iris really do? I can't see much of a difference.

Originally posted by Rgb
You are correct.

A service tech must open the projector and turn adjusment screws on the LCD panel block (see the cine4home website for a pic of the AE700 LCD block disassembled) to physically reposition the LCD panels.

The point is to display the test pattern while this adjustment is being performed.

You could try it yourself, but you would most likely void your warranty, of course ;).

Bad convergence is a warranty call issue. Call Panasonic service and make a warranty claim. You will need to ship the unit to Panasonic service to converge properly.

I did this on both (non_panasonic) projectors I have owned.

It is a common issue for LCD's, but the most easily fixed.


i had the same problem and ask the dealer to fix. A japanese techican stated that AE700 is somewhat different than other models as it was solid attached when produced in factory and no way to fix it then. Just don't know it's true or not.

Thanks for the reply TraderGordo. I have a 9800 np. I updated my video card driver and 1280 x 720 works now. Thanks again.

eme1

Originally posted by JimP
HMenke

I found using DVI to HDMI with a Accupel HD signal generator, the AE700 holds black level very well. So if you switch inputs from component to HDMI, you might want to recheck this. This is with dynamic Iris "on".

When I get a chance, I'll see how the component input handles black levels with changes in APL. I don't think it's affected by the signal source, but it would be interesting to verify that.


HMenke
Just checked component input in normal mode with the Accupel.
The AE 700 holds black levels very well with a variety of APLs. I only notice a very slight shift between 50% and 25%, probably 1 unit on the adjustment control.

Also, you guys might want to check gamma mid in the advanced menu. Over DVI at 1080I, I like the look it gives at +3

hi everyone

i have asked this question in the official panny 700 thread and didn't get an answer so ill try it in this panny 700 tweak thread.

i have just ordered the cine4home calibrated panny 700, and i have a question about the zoom vs pq. i got some answers regarding the subject but it didn't say me that much.

it would be really NICE if someone could test the following out. use 2.0x to fill the screen then move the projector back-wards and use lees zoom(for example 1.4x) to fill the same screen do you see a decrease in PQ when you use full zoom (meaning is it a noticeable difference).

the reason i ask this is because i have to use 2.0x but i am able to put the PJ a little further back but that means it will be "bad" place and i rather not put it there. i could test this out myself when the PJ arrives but i want to start putting up the shelf. so this would really help me out, so i hope that someone has a mobile pj and some time:p

but if no one can do this particular test can someone at least just zoom to 2.0x and maybe comment.

THANKS IN ADVANCE:D

When using 2.0x you are using maximum zoom. The less you use the best (at least in theory)

Convergence issues:

I have the same issue. At first when I had the projector at 14' from screen, with the screen below projector level, I did not have any noticable convergence issues.... except that in the test mode patterns, in the single cross, the blue bled through both sides of the lines. Is there a way to fix this?

Now after reading of improved light level from having the projector CLOSER to the screen, I did the same. I now have the projector a approx. 8' from the screen, projecting to a screen that is above the projector lens centerline.

Red convergence is TOTALLY off at the top portion of the image. The Red bleeds to the bottom.

Ideas on fixing this? Ideas on what this real issue is?

It seems that the convergence depends on where in the lens you project the image from. What irritates me is that I can increase/decrease the amount of this convergence by moving and repositioning the image to the same place... kinda like the mechanism for the lens shift is to blame.

echo

If you haven't already, check page 18 of the instruction book to verify that you're within the range of positions that the projector will work in.

Hi guys,

I know a couple of days have passed and I have also downloaded and tried RageTweak. My problem is that it only supports 60Hz and not 50. When playing movies every so often I seem to loose sync (picture tearing and shaking) for a couple of seconds after which everything is fine again. This happens (I estimate) every half an hour or so and as I said it lasts a few seconds.

Could this be a 50Hz problem? I am in Europe.



Originally posted by TraderGordo
RGB thanks for your input. I unloaded powerstrip, installed the RageTweak, rebooted, changed to 1280x720 which was now in the normal windows resolution choices. I set my background to the test pattern (which looked "messed up" as expected) and ran "AUTO" on the AE700. It did its thing, adjusted every setting in the position menu, and the test pattern looked like it is supposed to. Only problem was, like you just described, the picture was still cropped on the left side. I went into the position menu and it looked like the horizontal position adjustment had maxed out the adjustment range. But here's the interesting part -- for some reason I decided to reboot, and much to my surprise, the picture came up pixel perfect, (still no powerstrip), test pattern looking fine, AND no cropping. I was really surprised by this. So anyway, for those using VGA, this is the method that is easiest although picurewise, I don't think its any better than using powerstrip, and hopefully no worse -- looks pretty much the same to me either way although technically I think you get a true 60hz refresh with the RageTweak method as opposed to Powerstrips slighly lower refresh after custom timings are applied.

For those using HDMI, I believe powerstrip is still required to eliminate overscan/cropping issues as the "AUTO" option in the position menu is not available for you.

This seems to contradict everything I have read about telelenses. I have read (on avs also) that the picture (at least theoretically) should be best at maxim distance (longest throw)

Originally posted by saxo
When using 2.0x you are using maximum zoom. The less you use the best (at least in theory)

Originally posted by echo512
Convergence issues:

I have the same issue. At first when I had the projector at 14' from screen, with the screen below projector level, I did not have any noticable convergence issues.... except that in the test mode patterns, in the single cross, the blue bled through both sides of the lines. Is there a way to fix this?

Now after reading of improved light level from having the projector CLOSER to the screen, I did the same. I now have the projector a approx. 8' from the screen, projecting to a screen that is above the projector lens centerline.

Red convergence is TOTALLY off at the top portion of the image. The Red bleeds to the bottom.

Ideas on fixing this? Ideas on what this real issue is?

It seems that the convergence depends on where in the lens you project the image from. What irritates me is that I can increase/decrease the amount of this convergence by moving and repositioning the image to the same place... kinda like the mechanism for the lens shift is to blame.

Move the projector back to the back of the room. Too much lens shift is needed with the projector that close to the screen. I went throught the same thing. Couldn't handle the convergence error. And - I noticed no improved light level with the projector close to the screen. In fact just the opposite. Light level looks better at the further distance.

I've recently upgraded from a ae100 to a ae700. The 700 has been
outstanding with no noticeable vb or flashes. I"m using a hr10-250
hd tivo and onkyo dv-sp1000 dvd player, both with hdmi 15 foot
bluejean cables.

I am curious--for the people that recommended setting sharpness to -6, what is your thinking here? What was it that made you want the picture less sharp? I have mine set to 0 and it seems fine to me. What goal did you achieve by lowering the sharpness? Thanks!

The goal is to eliminate edge enhancement (EE, an unwanted artifact) as much as possible. The sharpness control adjustment at some point won't add EE to the video signal and that point is not necessarily 0, probably a minus number.

If this is remarkably screendoor free, I'm glad I didn't get an LCD last time. Not that it's bad. Just noticeable. A little defocus can help, but I hate that. Both me and pj are at about 14' with 92" screen.
The flicker adjustment annoys me. It is a bit tricky to set this and it does seem a little unstable. Green is tricky. Remember to warm up before tweaking. I don't notice vb in normal program material that I can be sure of. If it's there it aint bothering me.
Convergence does seem a bit off at close range, but compared to the crt in the bedroom? Ha! Not an issue for me at all.
Anyone with sharpness questions needs video essentials or avia, imho.

Regarding sharpness and edge enhancements.

The prevailing school of thought is that you should reduce sharpness until there is absolutely no edge enhancement on test patterns. Test pattern instructions usually state to adjust sharpness until all parts of the pattern are equally bright. So, right off the bat, the two are in disagreement.

I think that this is where test patterns and viewing actual content make the great devide. Although you can easily overdo sharpness such that you are loosing fine detail according to test patterns, you don't normally see that degree of detail in actual content. You also want to avoid overdoing the ringing that another poster mentioned. It's like making soup. Usually needs some salt, but too much ruins it as well.

What you might want to try with te AE700 is to set up one memory location with a sharpness of +2(my personal favorite) and another with -6. While actually viewing content, switch between the two. It might also give you a sense of some inbetween setting that would work best for you.

Another point that should be mentioned is that some source devices(i.e. DVD players) also have some degree of edge enhancement that needs to be taken into consideration. A player that by design has a lot, would have a different adjustment than one that doesn't have any. My +2 setting is based on a Denon 5900 that very little to none.

Happy viewing

TINT/COLOR controls from RGB VGA input:

I currently have the projector running through the VGA input. The picture is outstanding. My issue is that I want to correct the COLOR and TINT of the image, but the projector does not give me these settings in VGA input mode.

Only thing it allows is to tweak PER SCREEN COLOR for TINT and COLOR. I'm thinking of making more GLOBAL corrections, rather than individual corrections.

Ideas? (I have the classical blue gel filter)

echo: tint and color controls deal with composite, s-video, and component video signals, and not with RGB which has no adjustment for this unless it's converted into such a format, because RGB keeps everything separate, thus no color saturation/color balance aspect to the video signal.

If you need to adjust this, it is the fault of the source, and should be adjusted there.

Sharpness: I have it down all the way with the 700 as well as my 3910 and 5900 before that. I will be adusting that and other settings to taste and saving at other memory slots. Some DVD's are sharpened, some not, options are nice.

I posted this in another thread, but maybe you find it useful regarding to what kind of choises you have in a new updated powerstrip.

In powerstrip. Tell me what is right to use of these predefined resolutions:

1. 1280*720p Hdtv standard
2. 1280*720p DVI/HDCP derived
3. 1280*720p LCD
4. 1280*720p SONY GWIII
5. 1280*720i Hdtv derived (interlaced)
6. 1280*720p 60 hz (EIA/CEA-861B)
7. 1280*720p 50 hz (EIA/CEA-861B)

A lot of choises. The sony resolution looks interesting. If i could get the monitor driver for that one, i will probaly be able to set the resolutin to 1920*1080.

But what do you guys think?

I have a couple of questions regarding the 700. I'm upgrading from the 300 and so far (3 hrs) I am kind of underwhelmed. The image does look smoother (greater resolution), but I've got a handful of concerns.

1. Contrast - the contrast only seems marginally better than the 300. I made sure that the dynamic iris is on, but is there anything else I should check? Maybe I expected too much, but after the rave reviews, I expected more.

2. Fan Noise - maybe its my imagination, but the fan on the 700 seems louder than the 300 (both on low power mode). Anyone else notice this?

3. Image Size - here's the really weird one. When I am viewing a DVD via component, the image fills the entire screen. When I switch to HDMI (from same DVD player), there is a unused portion on the right and bottom of the screen - what is going on here? Is this normal or is there something wrong with this machine?

Thanks for any help you can provide,
Jason

Originally posted by dkelly
Yeah I'm experiencing cropping top and bottom on my HDMI input. It's coming in from a PC's DVI port, I'm using a DVI-HDMI cable.

That begs the question: Why does the panny tell the PC it's doing 720 vertical, and then only display 700 (690 maybe)? It seems to me this can only be a bug in the HDMI negotiation circuitry on the Panasonic, and possibly an additional bug that the panny then sees that the signal it is getting is 720 high but STILL crops off the top and bottom when it knows it can display it.... We're not talking analog signals here, this is pure digital... it's like me telling you 720 and you saying yep, 700. That can only be a bug.

If there is a bug, that thought immediately makes me wonder if this thing is somehow flash upgradeable over the HDMI connection... if Panasonic can release a fix for it... maybe they can somehow get out a fix via a monitor .inf file, but that doesn't help people that have DVDs hooked up via the HDMI port.


i too have tried to connect my HTPC via HDMI with overscan issues. it looks to me like the 720 lines are being rescaled to 750 and then the AE700 displays only the inner 720 lines. (hence 15 lines missing top/bottom)

powerstrip says that there are 720 active lines, but the total # of lines is 750 (including front/back porch and synch width). try as i might i cannot get the projector to accept the image after setting total lines to 720 - though this can't be the right way to go, after all, the panel is supposed to have 720 lines.

from some research i've discovered that there was a similar issue with the AE500, but it had an extra option in the menus to change EDID to EDID2. (I don't have an AE500 but I have read articles saying "if the projector says 750/60p then set EDID to EDID2 and hey-presto, you have 720/60p 1:1 pixel mapping"

so it would seem the problem is in reading video data from the card, and that this was already a known issue in the AE500 - why oh why don't we have such an option on the AE700??

has anyone actually managed to get the thing working with HTPC/HDMI or has anyone contacted panasonic about the issue?

I am really hoping there is a solution out there, I mean, I bought this projector on the assumption that it would work properly and get great image quality - I know the RGB connection isn't bad, but the damn thing should work with HDMI.

Originally posted by exsodius
I posted this in another thread, but maybe you find it useful regarding to what kind of choises you have in a new updated powerstrip.

In powerstrip. Tell me what is right to use of these predefined resolutions:

1. 1280*720p Hdtv standard
2. 1280*720p DVI/HDCP derived
3. 1280*720p LCD
4. 1280*720p SONY GWIII
5. 1280*720i Hdtv derived (interlaced)
6. 1280*720p 60 hz (EIA/CEA-861B)
7. 1280*720p 50 hz (EIA/CEA-861B)

A lot of choises. The sony resolution looks interesting. If i could get the monitor driver for that one, i will probaly be able to set the resolutin to 1920*1080.

But what do you guys think?

I believe I have 1:1 pixel mapping with the following custom powerstrip 3.54 settings (through sapphire radeon 9600 pro):

pixel clock 78.127
horizontal scan rate 45.004
vertical refresh rate 60.005
horizontal active 1280
horizontal front porch 80
horizontal sync width 168
horizontalback porch 208
vertical active 720
vertical front porch 5
vertical sync width 5
vertical back porch 20

I am running VGA in and set dotclock to +20 and clockphase to +9 and appear to have perfect pixel mapping using Mark rejon's calibration test pattern. But I wonder....If someone can get 76.5 pixel clock to work, please let me know as this is supposed to be the "AA" wide 720 setting.

Originally posted by benjust

has anyone actually managed to get the thing working with HTPC/HDMI or has anyone contacted panasonic about the issue?

I contacted Panasonic Scandinavia via email, but haven't got a sensible reply yet. I really hope people could contact their local Panasonic contact and ask them about this DVI/HDMI issue with missing lines and ask why this is so and if there is a solution to this problem.

And when people start getting replies...(hopefully) post them here.

So, please people, nag Panasonic till we get a proper answer! :-)

Originally posted by rsegato
I believe I have 1:1 pixel mapping with the following custom powerstrip 3.54 settings (through sapphire radeon 9600 pro):

pixel clock 78.127
horizontal scan rate 45.004
vertical refresh rate 60.005
horizontal active 1280
horizontal front porch 80
horizontal sync width 168
horizontalback porch 208
vertical active 720
vertical front porch 5
vertical sync width 5
vertical back porch 20

I am running VGA in and set dotclock to +20 and clockphase to +9 and appear to have perfect pixel mapping using Mark rejon's calibration test pattern. But I wonder....If someone can get 76.5 pixel clock to work, please let me know as this is supposed to be the "AA" wide 720 setting.

Just a suggestion- it is easier and cheaper to do 1:1 pixel mapping via analog RGB using the method outlined earlier in this thread and the big AE700 thread.

Use Rage3D Tweak (free) at rage3d.com inplace of powerstrip to enable 1280x720.

Reboot.

At the desktop, select the "Auto" function on the AE700 to allow the AE700 to "pixel lock" the 1280x720 60Hz signal.

If the image is shifted horizontally or vertically after the Auto setting, reboot PC.

If the image is still shifted, use the image shift functions built into the Radeon drivers in the Display Properties control panel to move the image closer to centered, then use the AE700 image shift function to zero in the image position.

Save settings on the Ae700 and you're done.

No clock or phase or other pixel timing adjustments should be necessry.

Originally posted by benjust
i too have tried to connect my HTPC via HDMI with overscan issues. it looks to me like the 720 lines are being rescaled to 750 and then the AE700 displays only the inner 720 lines. (hence 15 lines missing top/bottom)

powerstrip says that there are 720 active lines, but the total # of lines is 750 (including front/back porch and synch width). try as i might i cannot get the projector to accept the image after setting total lines to 720 - though this can't be the right way to go, after all, the panel is supposed to have 720 lines.

from some research i've discovered that there was a similar issue with the AE500, but it had an extra option in the menus to change EDID to EDID2. (I don't have an AE500 but I have read articles saying "if the projector says 750/60p then set EDID to EDID2 and hey-presto, you have 720/60p 1:1 pixel mapping"

so it would seem the problem is in reading video data from the card, and that this was already a known issue in the AE500 - why oh why don't we have such an option on the AE700??

has anyone actually managed to get the thing working with HTPC/HDMI or has anyone contacted panasonic about the issue?

I am really hoping there is a solution out there, I mean, I bought this projector on the assumption that it would work properly and get great image quality - I know the RGB connection isn't bad, but the damn thing should work with HDMI.

Is this similar to the EDID bug on Geforces and Sony projectors in the past?

I wonder if creating a 1280x750 resolution in Powerstrip would trick the projector into showing the full 720 lines?

What about sending the AE700 1280x1024 or 1280x960 then using the V-Scroll mode?

I've tried this and it is indeed very easy. I am in Europe though and RageTweak only does 60HZ. I have had some problems with recurring tearing (or loss of sync or something) which lasts for several seconds then disappears to come back later etc....

Is this perhaps caused by the 60:50Hz issue. I am not that much of a specialist.

I should of course state that I am trying from the secondary (dvi-i) output of a Radeon 9200 using a dvi-i to vga converter.

I must say that I have not been successful using PowerStrip at all. RageTweak is SOOOO easy. It just dosn't seem to do all I need.


Originally posted by Rgb
Just a suggestion- it is easier and cheaper to do 1:1 pixel mapping via analog RGB using the method outlined earlier in this thread and the big AE700 thread.

Use Rage3D Tweak (free) at rage3d.com inplace of powerstrip to enable 1280x720.

Reboot.

At the desktop, select the "Auto" function on the AE700 to allow the AE700 to "pixel lock" the 1280x720 60Hz signal.

If the image is shifted horizontally or vertically after the Auto setting, reboot PC.

If the image is still shifted, use the image shift functions built into the Radeon drivers in the Display Properties control panel to move the image closer to centered, then use the AE700 image shift function to zero in the image position.

Save settings on the Ae700 and you're done.

No clock or phase or other pixel timing adjustments should be necessry.

This is sort of a "tweak" question and perhaps a dumb one at best; still in my head it seems a valid one...so here it goes:

In light of all the 1:1 pixel mapping being talked about when using a PC video card to improve PQ on the AE700; would it be possible to do the same thing when using the Bravo D2's custom settings on DVI output??

I've learned that when outputing 720p I' using the native res of the PJ, still I just wonder it improved pq can be attained with the use of custom settings?

one can only learn by asking????

Originally posted by audiomaniac
I've tried this and it is indeed very easy. I am in Europe though and RageTweak only does 60HZ. I have had some problems with recurring tearing (or loss of sync or something) which lasts for several seconds then disappears to come back later etc....

Is this perhaps caused by the 60:50Hz issue. I am not that much of a specialist.

I should of course state that I am trying from the secondary (dvi-i) output of a Radeon 9200 using a dvi-i to vga converter.

I must say that I have not been successful using PowerStrip at all. RageTweak is SOOOO easy. It just dosn't seem to do all I need.

Is video tearing happening with both NTSC and PAl DVD's with the Radeon set to 60Hz?

You might want to try setting the PC to 75Hz for PAL DVD's, i.e. 1.5x50Hz. The AE700's frame rate convertor may do a better job with integer (fractional) multiples of input frequency, but this is just a guess.

Another option to try is to connect a video cable from the video out of the Radeon to a PAL TV. This may force the refresh rate to 50Hz. Check DIsplay Properties, Settings, Advanced, Displays, TV selection.

Try Catalyst 4.8 drivers, mentioned in the next post- they appear to support 50Hz at 1280x720.

If all else fails, you'll need to use Powerstrip (as I eat my crow)...

Originally posted by Rgb
Is this similar to the EDID bug on Geforces and Sony projectors in the past?

I wonder if creating a 1280x750 resolution in Powerstrip would trick the projector into showing the full 720 lines?

What about sending the AE700 1280x1024 or 1280x960 then using the V-Scroll mode?

i do not know about the EDID/Sony/Geforce bug so i can't comment..

a 1280x750 resolution would probably not display (blank screen on projector) but even if it did, it would not be a fix for the problem - what we are after is 1:1 pixel mapping via HDMI, not simply "fitting" video from the PC on the projector panels.

i know that the projector won't accept 1280x1024 input, but i never tried 1280x960 (which would be the more sensible resolution - i still don't know where the odd 5:4 resolution of 1280x1024 came from)

from the catalyst 4.8 release notes when EIA 861B timing was introduced:

EIA 861B Timing Specification
This release of CATALYST™ introduces EIA 861B Timing Specification for DVI based televisions. The RADEON™ Software Release version 8.04 will support 256 byte E-EDID and will decode CEA timing extensions. Further, it will retrieve DTV timing information. When the driver detects EIA 861B timings in E-EDID that the controller cannot handle, it will replace the EDID detail timing with adjusted timings suitable to our controller. The modes will be added as EDID detailed timing.

Common modes that are supported include:

640 x 480p at 60 Hz and 25.2 MHz pclk
720 x 480p at 59.94 Hz and 27.0 MHz pclk
720 x 576p at 50 Hz and 27.0 MHz pclk
1280 x 720p at 60 Hz and 74.25 MHz pclk
1280 x 720p at 50 Hz and 74.25 MHz pclk
1920 x 1080i at 60 Hz and 74.25 MHz pclk
1920 x 1080i at 50 Hz and 74.25 MHz pclk
1920 x 1080p at 60 Hz and 148.5 MHz pclk
1920 x 1080p at 50 Hz and 148.5 MHz pclk
This feature will be supported under the Windows XP and Windows 2000 operating systems.

Why can't Panasonic write a monitor driver to make it perfect 1:1 mapping.That would fix all of our complaints and there would not be this huge problem with getting the fix through a firmware upgrade. I have found that if you use a driver from another LCD panal like a sony one, it will display everything under the sun.(ALBEIT WITH THE PIXELCROP) Some also do not look right when they sync, but they still work. Here are the ones I can display now nicely. 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768, 1280x1024, 1920x1080. These all have about the same amount of pixel cropping except for 640x480. I think that is the real answer to our problems. With powerstrip, you can write a custom monitor driver. Why can't panasonic do this....?

Have any HTPC owners tweaked ffdshow for DVD and other media for the 700? I am new to ffdshow but would like to see what others are using for settings.
Is anyone resizing to larger than 1280x720 and is this a good idea at all (letting the 700 downconvert)?

Originally posted by zxlr8
Why can't Panasonic write a monitor driver to make it perfect 1:1 mapping.That would fix all of our complaints and there would not be this huge problem with getting the fix through a firmware upgrade. I have found that if you use a driver from another LCD panal like a sony one, it will display everything under the sun.(ALBEIT WITH THE PIXELCROP) Some also do not look right when they sync, but they still work. Here are the ones I can display now nicely. 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768, 1280x1024, 1920x1080. These all have about the same amount of pixel cropping except for 640x480. I think that is the real answer to our problems. With powerstrip, you can write a custom monitor driver. Why can't panasonic do this....?

I have wriiten monitor.inf files before, if this is what you are referring to. They are simple text files telling the video card driver what modes the monitor can support (resolutions and refresh rates), plus some other misc info.

These .inf files are not really "drivers" in the sense of a binary video card, network card or scanner driver. I don't believe any *.inf file would fix the cropping issue. It most likely must be done with the AE700 firmware.

Originally posted by DV8
Have any HTPC owners tweaked ffdshow for DVD and other media for the 700? I am new to ffdshow but would like to see what others are using for settings.
Is anyone resizing to larger than 1280x720 and is this a good idea at all (letting the 700 downconvert)?

Based on my research on ffdshow from reading these forums, I don't think you will gain anything by scaling less than 720p to greater than 720p then down to 720p in the AE700.

That said, many foum members have said that sendin *native* 1080i or 1080p to a 720p display device *can* look better than sending the same movie as native 720p.

An example of this are the IMAX WMV9 720p/1080p releases this year.

Many users report that using the native 1080p version on their 720p display looks better than the native 720p version.

This is not the same as *scaling* up 480i/480p to 1080i/1080p then back down to 720p.

One reason cited for the improvement observed with 1080p signals on 720p displays is that when the native 1080p is scaled once down to 720p, any noise or artifacts in the image are also scaled down and possible eliminated in the resolution reduction to 720p from 1080p.

If you try to scale up from 480i/480p to 1080p, you are increasing noise and artifacts that are already there. Going straight to 720p from lower resolutions is probably your best bet, ffdshow noise filters notwithstanding.

The general rule of thumb is, deinterlace and scale once.

A 1080p clip looks really good on a 1280x720 HDMI res going to the projector. It will look good, but I do not see any improvement by sending the projector 1920x1080i over HDMI via a Radeon 9800. When talking about the HDTV SAT though, 720p looks worse than 1080i.(noticably to my eyes) Native 1280x720 on a computer still looks better to my eyes than a signal from any sat receiver. These are still minor differences. Not discernable by an untrained eye. But definitely differences. To tell you the truth, I have never seen a better picture from anything than playing Far Cry with all of the settings maxed and at 1280x720 in-game. I was walking down a textured tunnel in the 4th or 5th level and my eyes were having a hard time with what it was seeing. It was that detailed and sharp and in-focus.

Now for fdshow, there is no discernable improvement upscaling past 1280x720 for an average dvd to me unless I put the scaling before any of the other filters. Than it is still rather unnoticeable to most eyes. It still looks better than the dvd by itself by a bit, but one way or another the dvd is always getting scaled to 1280x720 as long as it is being displayed by the AE700. That is why there is not a ton of difference between the ffdshow scaling and the video card scaling. The video card has a lot to do with how the picture turns out no matter what. This why it is important to get the best you can afford. I have seen the nvidia picture and it is fine, but to my eyes it just does not look as defined as the ATI cards. Just my 2 cents. I hope I did not more confuse the confused.

Originally posted by Rgb
I have wriiten monitor.inf files before, if this is what you are referring to. They are simple text files telling the video card driver what modes the monitor can support (resolutions and refresh rates), plus some other misc info.

These .inf files are not really "drivers" in the sense of a binary video card, network card or scanner driver. I don't believe any *.inf file would fix the cropping issue. It most likely must be done with the AE700 firmware.

yeah the only way to fix this problem is to update the software running the projector, unfortunately panasonic have not given us the possibility of doing that easily.

no sd card reader, no rs232.. nothing..

so the only chance of it working properly is if they get back to us and say that everyone who wants can have a free fix (hell i'd even be willing to pay a little for it) and we take it to our local panasonic support guys.

i'm still really pissed about it.. i have NEVER seen an lcd display that didn't just work right off the mark with DVI.. and it would really be the perfect projector without this flaw.

problem is, this projector doesn't have DVI. It's digital input may never have been designed for computer use.

just 2 questions:
1. any method to fix the misalignment of the three panels? (i use the ++++ pattern to check and found that the red color is positioned about 1 ~2 pixel above the other two)
2. any tips in using the RGB gain in the advance menu?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AVGadgetBoy
[B]After over 70 hours of watching DVD from an interlaced component feed, I've more or less settled with the following (basic setting setup using THX Optimiser found in THX DVDs, then eye-tweaked for the color temp & advanced color over a series of movies)

PICTURE MODE: NORMAL

CONTRAST 0
BRIGHT +2
COLOUR -11
TINT ( NTSC ) +5
SHARPNESS 0
COLOUR TEMP -1
DYNAMIC IRIS ON

ADVANCED MENU

GAMMA HIGH 0
GAMMA MID 0
GAMMA LOW +3
CONTRAST R 0
CONTRAST G -2
CONTRAST B -3
BRIGHT R 0
BRIGHT G -2
BRIGHT B -5

OPTION

QSD ON
NR OFF
CINEMA REALITY: ON
BACK COLOR: BLUE
WSS: ON
FRONT/REAR :FRONT
DESK/CEILING :CEILING
FAN CONTROL: NORMAL
LAMP PWER: LOW

QUOTE]

This setup works great for me in Normal - I also like HMenke's setups too, especially for Cinema 2, Video. Natural still looks a little drab/undynamic for my liking and yeah, there's something not quite right about Cinema 3. Colour temp has a huge influence on the overall colour it seems

Tell me =- those advanced Gamma tweaks above, are they global or only local to Normal mode?

I'm still grappling with the 1:1 pixel mapping using Powerstrip and DVI...(sigh)

Thanks again for the suggested setup.

My system/setup:
Gigabyte 1000Pro2 m/b
1Gb Ram
Radeon 9600Pro 256Mb
Running DVI via Lindy SLD 10m DVI cable, with DVI/HDMI Key Digital adapter at PJ end
Screen - Fixed 90", triple pass curtain block out on MDF 3mm board, aluminium frame.
200Gb A/V dedicated drive
MAudio Revo 7.1 reclocked with Tent Clock XO3
Zalman PSU/CPU cooler
Viewing distance - 13ft (4m approx)
Mounting of PJ - rear wall using cable ducting for wiring (Aussieduct) about 2 ft above my head (quiet enough - no problem!)
Light coloured room, window on side - generally watch movies at night

Kendrick,
thx for your tips. however, i added a KR6 filter and so your guidelines doesn't apply to me. Can u explain a little bit about ADVANCED MENU?

GAMMA HIGH 0
GAMMA MID 0
GAMMA LOW +3
CONTRAST R 0
CONTRAST G -2
CONTRAST B -3
BRIGHT R 0
BRIGHT G -2
BRIGHT B -5

Originally posted by bapenguin
problem is, this projector doesn't have DVI. It's digital input may never have been designed for computer use.
it doesn't matter that it wasn't designed for computer use, it was designed for devices with DVI output.

all standalone DVD players/STBs with DVI out will suffer from the same problem.

Originally posted by yipchunyu
Kendrick,
thx for your tips. however, i added a KR6 filter and so your guidelines doesn't apply to me. Can u explain a little bit about ADVANCED MENU?

GAMMA HIGH 0
GAMMA MID 0
GAMMA LOW +3
CONTRAST R 0
CONTRAST G -2
CONTRAST B -3
BRIGHT R 0
BRIGHT G -2
BRIGHT B -5

Thanks yipchunyu but thank AVGadget Boy who did the background work, I just tried out his recommendations and they worked well for me (even though I think he's running RGB and I'm running DVI). I personally haven't looked into the advanced menu at this stage.

Several of you have complained about spaces at the top and bottom of the
screen. We must all realize that many movies are made with an aspect
ratio of 185x1 720P is equal to about 178x1. This may be the reason for
the spaces at the top and bottom of the screen. I learned about this when
I owned a Sanyo Z2 and used it with a Momitsu DVD player. Someone
posted this information about the different aspect ratios of different films.

I would check the machine with different sources.

Originally posted by benjust
it doesn't matter that it wasn't designed for computer use, it was designed for devices with DVI output.

all standalone DVD players/STBs with DVI out will suffer from the same problem.

again, no it wasn't. It was designed with HDMI, which DVI is a subset of. Not guaranteed to have the same results...

Originally posted by yipchunyu
Kendrick,
thx for your tips. however, i added a KR6 filter and so your guidelines doesn't apply to me. Can u explain a little bit about ADVANCED MENU?

GAMMA HIGH 0
GAMMA MID 0
GAMMA LOW +3
CONTRAST R 0
CONTRAST G -2
CONTRAST B -3
BRIGHT R 0
BRIGHT G -2
BRIGHT B -5


I had recommended those settings earlier.

From the manual:

"GAMMA HIGH/MID/LOW
These items are for adjusting the gradation of the bright, medium and
dark scenes in the projected image respectively."

CONTRAST R/G/B
These items are for adjusting the color temperature of the white areas
of the projected image by changing each level.

BRIGHT R/G/B
These items are for adjusting the color temperature of the black areas
of the projected image by changing each level."

You should really try it out while pausing a scene (choose one with both very bright areas & plenty of shadows). Shift each menu item to both extremes to see the effect. That's how I self-learn.

Sounds like grayscale adjustments for cuts and drives. Also known as gain and bias.

Hi guys,

I've had my ae700 for a little over two weeks now. I've been enjoying the picture but recently while doing the flicker tweak, steal tweaking, I noticed
something while tweaking the green. There are a bunch of pixels which are
different in color than the rest, they appear to be slightly brighter or lighter in color. I don't think these are dead pixels but I'm not sure. Next time you guys do a flicker tweak please check for this. You have to be really close to the screen to notice them at first. Please post any thoughts on what you guys think this is. Thanks.

eme1

Thanks to everyone for putting this thread together. I am experiencing some of the same symptoms as the other AE700u owners: 1) VB, 2) flashes over HDMI

I have used the flicker tweak suggestions for R, G, B in this thread and the difference is night and day. Finding Nemo is basically perfect now over 1080i and 720p along with The Matrix, The Italian Job. It looks like that fixed my VB issue.

My white flashes still occur and I thought I'd let everyone know that it does it for me on my Denon 2910 and my brand new Onkyo SP1000 (OMG what an amazing picture with this DVD player!). This happens over 1080i and 720p on both players. I have not been able to figure out how to turn WSS to "manual". It is disabled over HDMI, but also disabled when I changed to component inputs. The flash is brief (fraction of a second) and happens sporadically on every DVD I've watched so far (I've logged 50+ hours on the 700u).

I am using a 6m Monster Cable HDMI->HDMI reference series cable (boy was this expensive) so I don't think it's a cable issue. The flash is the same as when there's a negotiation between the DVD player and the 700u at the beginning when it's switching between 4:3 source and 16:9 source, but then it happens randomly during movies.

Can anyone tell me how to set WSS to manual? I wonder if setting it to manual will affect the HDMI flashes?

Thank you,

Darren

Hey Darren
Just wanted to say I am in the same boat... beautiful picture with hdmi @ 720p and 1080i with my panasonic 97 ... it uses the same faroudja chipset and I also have tried different hdmi cables.. both very short cables of about 3 feet... and still have occasional flashes.. can't seem to set wss to manual even with s-video? all inputs have this option greyed out.. I will say that for some reason the last few movies... have had less flashes.. or I have missed them... I have logged about 57 hours on my projector.. would love to get the flash thing pinned down.. but they seem to be happening less frequently than before which is good... maybe it is the faroudja chipset upconversion... people have reported no flashes with the new sony hdmi player?? thanks Tim

Manual Page 46
WSS is only related to PAL signals.

Tim,

I'm using the new Onkyo SP1000 which uses the SiL504 chip, rather then the Faroujda 2310 that my Denon 2910 uses. Both exhibit the same flash over 1080i and 720p using HDMI. Like yours, sometimes it happens a few more times during some DVDs, while others only show a couple of times.

Thanks again,

Darren

Darren,
I watched the new Harry Potter dvd and watched a good hour or so of the documentaries on the fellowship of the ring ee and did not have one flash. usually I have 1 or 2 per movie at the most... but they are not as annoying as I thought they would be from reading the posts...also I think from reading some of the prev posts that the some people have had different flashes with component inputs.. I had comcast hdtv dvr hooked up a week ago and have been having fun with hdtv.. no flashes for a week or so then.. a few nights ago I saw a diffenent flash than the flashes over hdmi dvd... and I saw it on a few diffent hdtv channels...have not seen them again.. but the flashes did not have the white snow or the look of the ones we have experienced on hdmi. but they were very brief and hard to describe.. again it was a one time thing.. 1 small flash on 3 different hdtv channels... during a 10 min peiod.. havent seen one since...?? hdtv comcast is hooked up through component.. anyways I love the upconversion @ 720p on my dvd player.. and do not want to go back to 480p.. very inferior on my player.. Don't know if it will help.. but I spoke to someone from the dealer who sold me the player and told him the problem and he said he would speak to the panasonic rep.. about the projector and the hdmi issue...who knows if he will follow up.. I also spoke to the rep who sold me the projector and he said he would look into it.. hopefully enough people will inquire about it that someone will find a fix?? I love this projector bye the way... Tim

Tim,

Sounds like you've been really getting some good use out of your PJ. I have watched some HDTV channels on my 700u, but not enough to provide any real valuable experiences. I'll try to watch Discovery HD tonight for a while.

My wife and I are picking up the new Harry Potter in about an hour and I am looking forward to watching that later tonight as well.

Also, I agree with your sentiments regarding this PJ's performance. It's truly awesome that you can get such a good image with only spending $2k.

I have the local number for my Panasonic Engineer in Dallas, TX and he owes me a call re: the VB issues which are now fixed thanks to everyone on here. I will pass that info along to him and also get him to work with me on the flashing/HDMI issue. I'll keep you posted on what I learn.

Cheers,

Darren

I seem to be having a lack of shadow detail. Like if somebody is wearing a dark gray sweater or dark shirt, it looks basically black with no detail. If I view the same scene on my LCD monitor, then everything looks good.

Any suggestions? I'm using Zoomplayer with FFDSHOW so I can tweak in those regards.

Running HDMI.

Pultzar, you need to view some DVE or Avia Pro test patterns to see whether or not you're clipping data, and to calibrate.

Originally posted by Pultzar
I seem to be having a lack of shadow detail. Like if somebody is wearing a dark gray sweater or dark shirt, it looks basically black with no detail. If I view the same scene on my LCD monitor, then everything looks good.

Any suggestions? I'm using Zoomplayer with FFDSHOW so I can tweak in those regards.

Running HDMI.
To bring up the shadow details, I have my LOW GAMMA (in ADVANCED MENU) set to +3. I then use the BRIGHTNESS level (in my Japanese model, its called Black Level) to bring down the blackness until a balance point where I get enough shadow detail & black level (also dependant on other factors such as screen type & ambient light). Using a calibration pattern would help you get to such a point more accurately too.

Originally posted by rocktim
Hey Darren
Just wanted to say I am in the same boat... beautiful picture with hdmi @ 720p and 1080i with my panasonic 97


Rocktim, do you notice any macroblocking with your s97 using hdmi on your AE700 and if so to what degree? I read the long... long...long thread on the s97 under dvd players section but none of the 700 owners that tried the s97 mentioned if marcoblocking was an issue with their panny. I am very interested in using this player with my 700, thanks.

I currently use the Toshiba SD3960 via component. This player also has black level adjustments and can pass BTB and WTW according to secrets. I am wondering if i can get a sharper clearer image with the s97 upconverting via hdmi?

Originally posted by yipchunyu
just 2 questions:
1. any method to fix the misalignment of the three panels? (i use the ++++ pattern to check and found that the red color is positioned about 1 ~2 pixel above the other two)
2. any tips in using the RGB gain in the advance menu?

Reports earlier in this thread appear to indicate that the AE700's panels are mechanically fixed into position during assembly- i.e. they have no vernier screws to move the panels for adjustments. While I don't agree with this design choice (if true), I understand from a cost reducton point of view. This would be fine if their assembly robustness was up to par, guaranteeing panel convergence to "six sigma" manufacturing standards.

I would not tolerate a panel being off even one full pixel (half a pixel or less is my tolerance). If your red panel truly is off by more than one full pixel width, it sounds like a warranty call or product return is in order.

I have a 700 and a Momitsu DVD player. I just tried the THX optomizer test and it was impossible to make adjustments to see the 4 white boxes on the first test using HDMI. There is no problem make the adjustments using
the component input. I have used the Momitsu with other sources so I know the problem is not with it. I wonder if the same problem exists with the Panasonic 97S. If anyone has this combination and is using the HDMI
input would you try the THX test. It is available on many DVD's including Nemo.

Thanks

cecide,
Funny you asked... I also had a toshiba 3960.. the picture quality from the panny is amazing... much better than the Toshiba... I also read about the macroblocking... and searched the forum for days reading and looking at reviews.. etc.. and to be honest.. I don't think I have seen anything.. except maybe once.. during a night shot in the movie "Jaws" there was some noise for maybe a second.. and it was not significant... honestly.. there are so many tweak options ..actually it seems like there are more settings in the dvd player than the pj. and I do believe that the macroblocking is more apparent from different display devices... dvd @ 720p ( which I thought looked just a hair.. i mean small hair better than 1080i) is pretty close to hd.. and i have been watching a ton of hd movies and programming as I just got hd cable a few days ago.. I do still have an occasional white snow flash.. which is very brief.. and although it is not a big deal ... I am positive someone or panasonic will find a fix soon.. as far as macroblocking.. I guess I should check out some of those scenes that supposedly show macroblocking.. like monsters inc.. etc.. but I have had too much fun just kicking back and enjoying movies etc... this is my first pj and am having a ball. Almost pulled the trigger twice a few months ago on the panny ae500 and the z2.. I am glad I waited... so to answer your question.. yes the 97 puts out a much cleaner picture with tons of black level, noise reduction, sharpness controls than the toshiba.. rocktim

I found a partial workaround for the lack of discrete Power On/Power Off codes on the AE700. Basically, when the unit is off and you press Power, it comes on. But when it is on and you press Power, a Power Off menu pops up. You can enter OK to shut it down...or you can right arrow to CANCEL and press Enter. I made a "Power On" macro that hits power and then goes to CANCEL and hits Enter. When the PJ is off it comes on. When it is already on it stays on. Therefore this acts like a discrete Power On code.

I have a similar macro for Power Off except I go ahead and hit Enter at the OK. However for Power Off, there is no way to prevent the PJ from turning on if it is already off. As soon as it receives the power command, it will come on. However, the only time I am sending a Power Off macro is embedded in my System Off macro, so it is near 100% certain that the PJ is on when I activate the System Off macro.

Very important if you want to try this: when you teach the Power button to a learning remote, make sure to give the Panasonic remote button just the quickest push you can manage. If you hold it down, the learning remote will capture a repeating IR sequence that will punch right through the Power Off menu and shut you down automatically (just as it would if you press and hold the Power button manually). With just a quick push during the teaching process, you will capture a single IR burst that does not repeat. This is what you need to make a Power On macro that works.

Great info HMenke. I was concerned about lack of discrete codes for the AE700 but it sounds like you've discovered some nice workarounds.

One question I do have relating to the remote, is the sensitivity of the IR remote and receiver on the projector. I've never owned a projector before so I'm curious to know just how close the remote has to be to the receiver in order for it to work. i.e. Because you'd generally point a learning remote towards the front of the room to initiate a macro (i.e. turn on receiver / turn on DVD player / turn on projector) will the projector pick this up? Or does it require the remote to be pointed directly at the projector (or at least in it's general direction).

Any info would be most appreciated.

Originally posted by Diseased Chicken
I've never owned a projector before so I'm curious to know just how close the remote has to be to the receiver in order for it to work. i.e. Because you'd generally point a learning remote towards the front of the room to initiate a macro (i.e. turn on receiver / turn on DVD player / turn on projector) will the projector pick this up? Or does it require the remote to be pointed directly at the projector (or at least in it's general direction).

Any info would be most appreciated.
All my remotes actually work wonderfully bouncing off the projector screen/tv screen. Everyone just points at the screen when using a remote, but all the equipment behind the couch sees the IR bouncing back (don't have any problems with this method of operation).

Thanks for the info Ben. Didn't even consider it working that way. Screens do reflect light afterall so I guess they would work the same way with IR. That's very good news :)

Originally posted by Diseased Chicken
One question I do have relating to the remote, is the sensitivity of the IR remote and receiver on the projector. I've never owned a projector before so I'm curious to know just how close the remote has to be to the receiver in order for it to work. i.e.

The IR receiver on the AE700 is sensitive. I have been pointing its remote (and my learning remote) at the screen. The IR bounces off nicely and activates the PJ.

Cecede, I have a AE700 and am considering a 97S DVD player. I want to
use HDMI. If possible could you check to see if the combo passes the
THX video tests. I wonder if you can see the 4 white boxes on the first
test. The THX tests are on many videos including NEMo.

Thanks.

rwesty
I have the 97s and the 700 and yes ... it passes the thx video tests.. you have to play with the color outputs on the p7s.. you have many option.. rbg- rbg enhanced, yr pr br 4-4-4 or 4-2-2, rbg standard workd the best.. you also have a black level control... lighter or darker.. so depending on your video display you can match it up...I use the rbg enhanced and the darker setting.. The 4-4-4 setting worked too, but rbg-enhanced crushed blacks... I think you can download the 97s manual from panasonic.. I did and read through it before i bought it... it helped alot with my purchase.. Tim

rwesty
sorry ..correction from prev post.. i use rbg -standard.. not enhanced...

Thanks Rocktim for your fast reply. I just want to be sure you are using
the HDCP output on the 97 and the HDCP input on the 700.

I will order a 97S if it will work on HDCP.

Thanks again

oh yeah... i am using hdmi-hdmi cable...i assume you meant hdmi.. I am using the one that came with the 97s.. it is very short.. only 3 feet or so.. but I am lucky.. all of my gear is a storage shelf in back of the room and the panny is on top of it.. so I can use short run cables... I have not tried component @ 480i or 480p.. so I cannot comment... but hdmi @480p looked ok.. but you see a noticable increase in pq @ 720p or 1080i.. more detail ... appears to be sharper....etc..
bye the way I need to hook up 2 component devices (hdtv) so I need some type of switcher... something simple that does not degrade picture quality etc.. i would like to avoid upgrading my pioneer elite reciever... for a new one with hd component switching... are there any decent alternatives. for 100 -200$$ thanks Tim

Thanks Tim for your fast reply. I did mean HDMi. I just ordered the
97S it should arrive by the end of the week.

If you are looking for a low price receiver I would check out the Onkyo
502. It has great sound and is easy to use. You can still use the 97S
with HDMI and use the Onkyo for switching the sound and any other
device you might use such as a vcr or HDTV cable box using component
outputs. Ecost sells refurbished units at great prices. I have one and
it beats many much more expensive units.

Hey all,

Im moments away from firing up my panny 700 hooked upto my xbox via HDTV kit, just wanted some suggestions on the following tweaks?

1.Whats the best PIC MODE to be playing xbox games?

2.For DVDs, is cinema 1 the best option?

thanx

Although my convergence is very good, it appears as though the blue panel is out of focus when the other panels are in focus (I can see it in the service menu).

Is this normal? I'm guessing that if one panel is to be out of focus a little bit, it is best to be blue since we are less sensitive to it than green.

Originally posted by nrsimao
Hey all,

Im moments away from firing up my panny 700 hooked upto my xbox via HDTV kit, just wanted some suggestions on the following tweaks?

1.Whats the best PIC MODE to be playing xbox games?

2.For DVDs, is cinema 1 the best option?

thanx

Video mode is best for me for XBox games. I turn down the color, brightness and contrast a bit in it though.

Cinema 1 is best for movies, but does require a bit of tweaking as out of the box it's a bit brownish in my opinion.

I found out someting today on my 5 day old AE700.

EXT options 2 - service meny

Press OSD for 5 sec (Now you are in EXT options 1) And then
Press PIC.SHIFT for 5 sec (Now you are in EXT options 2)

Then you get 4 new options. Also containing an iris option.

I will edit this reply as soon as we know what to do with it.

great find, exsodius

Rs232
Iris
Fan Check
FH mode

Iris and fan check seem "greyed out"
Any ideas on FH mode?

From my research it would seem the Panasonic AE700 uses Epson/Seiko L3D07H panels - exactly the same panels as were used in the AE500.

These are 1284x724 panels as specified by Epson here (http://www.epsondevice.com/htps_e/products/appri_wd_hdtv.html).

I might try a resolution of 1284x724 through DVI tonight, see if it actually displays 1:1.

I'm not sure that this qualifies as a tweak, but I wanted to offer it up as a solution for cleaning the lens.

The first time I tried cleaning the lens, I did it with a soft cloth. It seemed that all I managed to do was add more dust and stir it around some.

I then tried the "color Beseler" "Anti-Static Cloth". I use these at my studio to clean uncut negatives and thought it might work on the AE700 lens. Worked like a charm. Not only does it remove the dust, but it somehow gives it an antistatic property, which repels dust. In reading the literature that came with the cloth, it includes cleaning lenses as one of the things its intended to do.

They're also antistatic brushes that might be easier to use. I'm going to try that the next time I see that the lens needs cleaning.

Originally posted by Pultzar
... it appears as though the blue panel is out of focus when the other panels are in focus (I can see it in the service menu).

Is this normal? I'm guessing that if one panel is to be out of focus a little bit, it is best to be blue since we are less sensitive to it than green.

In the visible light spectrum, the human eye has the most difficulty focusing at the blue end due to the refraction of light as it passes through the cornea and lens to "project" (had to say it... :) ) onto the retina. A very normal phenomenon. It was really noticible with my old CRT. Without seeing it I couldn't prove it - ask couple friends (with great eyesight!) to have a look and see what their impressions are-
Warren

Originally posted by bapenguin
Video mode is best for me for XBox games. I turn down the color, brightness and contrast a bit in it though.

Cinema 1 is best for movies, but does require a bit of tweaking as out of the box it's a bit brownish in my opinion.

I sat down with my 25hr 700 last night to do an Avia calibration. I had to pick some "picture" mode to tweak so I decided on Cinema 2 (that was my fave movie setting on my 500). Now, results are going to depend on which mode we all start tweaking from (I suppose I could've picked "natural" and gone from there but...).
FWIW, the 700 is about 10' away from a 106" 16x9 Da-Lite 1.2 gain screen in a completely black basement HT (entire front is blacked out with cloth over acustical treatment to minimize light bounce back to the screen).
My basic post-calibration settings were (Cinema 2):
Contrast +7
Bright -2
Color and Tint were perfect at 0
Sharpness -2
No tweaking of color temp and dynamic iris ON. Didn't mess around with grey scale in Advanced mode as I don't have the proper calibration equipment.
Anyone else done this and if so from what reference mode and what settings did u end up with?
Warren

PS: While I haven't done any flicker tweak yet I'm sad to say the localized VB is present on my 700 as it was on my 500 (which I expected given that they use the same panels) -will try to post to that screenshot thread later

(Repeated here from the big AE700 thread, since (a) it's tweak related and (b) it's REALLY IMPORTANT ;))

Originally posted by exsodius:

"And we now know that the 2 options in rs232 is 232 or D-sub. And D-sub is the vga input. So maybe this means that you could upgrade firmware with the vga input too. And thats a lot easier than opening the projector. "


Makes sense, since there are a lot of unused pins on a DB15 VGA connector. All you need for RS232 serial is transmit and receive and maybe a flow control data line.

Just whip up a DB9 to DB15 adapter once we know the pinouts on the AE700 DB15 VGA port.

Look at the traces on the circuit board that connect to the DB15 VGA connector- it may yield more clues.

Also, if someone is adept with an oscilloscope and/or voltmeter, they could select "RS232" in the EXT2 menu, then scope the pins not used by the R-G-B-H-V lines on the DB15 port to sniff out the serial data lines...

Here is a pinout table for a standard DB15 VGA port:
http://www.mycableshop.com/techarticles/VGA.htm

The EXT2 menu option prolly switches pins 4, 11, 12, and 15 from Monitor ID data lines to RS232 serial data lines. All that is required for RS232 communications is 4 lines (or less).

It would probably be safe to make a prototype adapter cable that taps these 4 pins. Using a simple terminal program, you could probably try all 16 combinations of pin connections and see if you get an ack in the terminal window.

Of course, we need to know the baud rate/ stop bits/ flow control parameters of the serial lines. These might be deduced from earlier Panasonic AE100-500 projectors.

DISCLAIMER- If you fry your AE700 and/or house and/or loved ones trying this, it's YOUR FAULT

P.S. We REALLY NEED the AE700 Service Manual! I am certain these issues would be described there...

PPS- I see a big aftermarket in DB15 to DB15/DB9 Y-breakout cables brewing, allowing simlutaneous VGA and serial port connection...

Since the dust filter slides out of the bottom of the AE700, I decided to make an access hole in my shelf. This means I can remove and clean the filter every 100 hours (per the manual) without disturbing the PJ alignment. Saves a lot of time and hassle by not having to re-align the PJ after every cleaning. See photo below.

More research-

RS232 DB9 pinouts:

http://www.zytrax.com/tech/layer_1/cables/tech_rs232.htm#db9

I suspect that the four lines used/required are 2,3,4,7
Rd, Td, DTR, and RTS

How these might be mapped to the 4 Monitor ID pins is unknown.

Again, this is all speculation and educated guessing based on available evidence.

Originally posted by Rgb
More research-

RS232 DB9 pinouts:

http://www.zytrax.com/tech/layer_1/cables/tech_rs232.htm#db9

I suspect that the four lines used/required are 2,3,4,7
Rd, Td, DTR, and RTS

How these might be mapped to the 4 Monitor ID pins is unknown.

Again, this is all speculation and educated guessing based on available evidence.

Nice research RGB!

I am doing some researh myself. I showed my girlfriend how i found EXT 2, and she said "too bad the iris were greyed out. Can't you try holding 2 buttons together as the same time or something?" Well then i remember all the codes on playstation. Press x-up-down-left etc. So this is what i am doing now :) I have tried turning iris off too. But can anyone help on this one. I mean try lot's of different stuff.

Thanks!

I have colorfacts AND a PTAE700. Has anybody run this unit through on this hardware yet? I'm thinking of giving it a shot tonight, but the PJ only has about 8 hours on it. Just so you folks think I'm being 'normal', per my usual behavior, I'd like to say that I completely disassembled the unit before I even plugged it in once.

I can also look at the pins on the HDMI connector the next time I take it apart, but that won't show much I suspect, it looked like a custom Panasonic chip on the HDMI connector, IIRC.

KBK

all riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight !!!

Originally posted by KBK
Just so you folks think I'm being 'normal', per my usual behavior, I'd like to say that I completely disassembled the unit before I even plugged it in once.

I can also look at the pins on the HDMI connector the next time I take it apart, but that won't show much I suspect, it looked like a custom Panasonic chip on the HDMI connector, IIRC.

Might be a good reason why the HDMI port seems flaky to some.

KBK,
Any chance of a PQ view from you? I'm sure many of us would be interested.

ted

Originally posted by JimP
KBK

all riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight !!!

He might just want to tinker.....:cool:
I *know* he has a stong interest in the "barn-door" flappy-type implementation of the iris.;)

ted

Quoted from above: "Of course, we need to know the baud rates/ stop bits/ flow control parameters of the serial lines..."

You might also need to know the protocols, i.e. what command elicits which response. Without knowing the language the AE700 talks, you can toy around forever and not get anywhere. I do a lot of this RS232 comms for a living, and unless you know what to tell the AE700 (or any other target device), you're swingin' in the breeze. Just figuring the pinouts for a port is about 0.0000001% of the job.

True enough about the pins, etc. It's like realizing that sounds come out of someone's mouth, it says nothing about the language. I haven't read anything on this puppy.

I won't be able to spend much time on it. I will quite likely use this PJ as a base for LCD image quality enhancement techniques. I've been sitting on my LCD tweaks for about three years or more, and never bothered to implement any. I'm going straight after ANSI contrast, and I have few ideas that I know for a fact will increase that factor tremendously.

We are principally after the PJ so we can then give out accurate numbers for estimates on what Goo coatings per screen size, etc., estimates of what the Z3 may need too. I will also be calibrating it, etc, via Colorfacts. We tend to go after CR for PJs to have lying about for testing, and haven't bothered with any LCD units until this one cam along. It's good enough that I happily watched a DVD on it last night and only noticed that it was a LCD projector about 20-30 times.. instead of the usual continuous situation with most LCD's.

I can also easily see the transition of the gated light..as far as PC desktops go. For example, right now, if I pull down my favorites menu, turning it on and off, I can see the flaps open and close, due to the extra white produced by the favorites menu turning on/off.

I won't be able to do any modifications until all the measurements have been made. Damn. I already had it apart..why not start in right away, I thought. Modify it before even firing it up once. But...

BTW. Note to potential buyers:

I've seen 3 of these units up close..and the panel alignment was/is idientically good on all three. A small sample group to be sure, but a decent omen. It bodes well.

Originally posted by KBK
True enough about the pins, etc. It's like realizing that sounds come out of someone's mouth, it says nothing about the language. I haven't read anything on this puppy.

I won't be able to spend much time on it. I will quite likely use this PJ as a base for LCD image quality enhancement techniques. I've been sitting on my LCD tweaks for about three years or more, and never bothered to implement any. I'm going straight after ANSI contrast, and I have few ideas that I know for a fact will increase that factor tremendously.

We are principally after the PJ so we can then give out accurate numbers for estimates on what Goo coatings per screen size, etc., estimates of what the Z3 may need too. I will also be calibrating it, etc, via Colorfacts. We tend to go after CR for PJs to have lying about for testing, and haven't bothered with any LCD units until this one cam along. It's good enough that I happily watched a DVD on it last night and only noticed that it was a LCD projector about 20-30 times.. instead of the usual continuous situation with most LCD's.

I can also easily see the transition of the gated light..as far as PC desktops go. For example, right now, if I pull down my favorites menu, turning it on and off, I can see the flaps open and close, due to the extra white produced by the favorites menu turning on/off.

I won't be able to do any modifications until all the measurements have been made. Damn. I already had it apart..why not start in right away, I thought. Modify it before even firing it up once. But...

Do you think it's dangerous to have the power on when the top is off. Does it get enough cooling? I did this 5 minutes, when i tried to find out which fan that was noisy. I did only see 3 fans inside. Do you see the same? AE500 had 4 fans. And how fast are those flaps? Pretty fast, right?

Try these settings:
~~~~~~~~~~
Note: In the near future, I will go back to the Cinema 3 settings, and re-calibrate. ignore these settings for the moment, and try the listed changes for the NATURAL settings, listed furthur on in the thread. I will be trying to get to a natural result (ie, perfect d6500 temp, and gamma ramping, all while keeping the image pleasing to look at) for all the different settings, one at a time.
~~~~~~~~~~
picture mode CINEMA 3
contrast -5
brightness +1

color temp 0

Gamma high -1
Gamma medium 0
Gamma low +1
Contrast R +4
Contrast G -5
Contrast B -5

Bright R -8
Bright G +6
Bright B +1

Color temp at that setting is about 6600, overall. Remember, the chromatic aberration due to panel mis-alignment may create slightly different results on your PJ than if it was measured with mine. I tried to use only the center of the panels for measurement, as area this hopefully has the least chromatic aberration.

You might notice a Red level 'hump' that is centered in the 40-50 IRE range, this is seemingly impossible to remove via adjustment..without ruining everything else. I'm sure you can live with it. :)

It is a bit difficult to get this unit to give linear measurements with the Colorfacts program. I suspect this is because it may have been 'visually' optimized to deal with the limited number different 'light gating' settings that the 'flaps' in the dynamic iris can be set at.

I have noticed that there are low level scenes that can look spectacular, and other low level scenes that can be washed out. Same for mid level, and high level scenes.

6 of one, a half dozen of the other. You can't have it all.

So far, it seems to be a solid effort from Panasonic.

I have the unit looking uniformly like a LCD unit throughout the entire brightness and CR range that a given DVD may have, including Dark City.

I suspect that this is the best the PJ can do..is display all brightness and contrast images as good as a standard LCD can do..but to do it with all given scenes that a DVD may have..either a bright DVD, or a overall dark DVD.

The dynamic contrasting that we all desire in any given scene in a DVD....as presented by a LCD type unit..I suspect it isn't quite here yet.

The way the PJ looks with it's stock factory settings is notably more dynamic compared to the settings stated here. These stated (in this thread) are the settings that measure the best.

Remember, measurements aren't the 'be all, end all'. Many times a personal preference for settings is the better choice, at least for you. The next guy likes it different, as usual.

Give these setting a shot, it will be very overall 'color correct' throughout the 0-100 IRE ranges, but maybe that's about it.

The test was done in a dedicated measurement room, with no real light spill protection. Not necessary, long explanation. The screen was a entire wall done in Goo Systems Digital Grey, and the image size used for the test was a 84" diagonal 16X9, on that stated wall.

I have been watching a DVD of Baraka, and it seems to be looking quite good. I use the PC input myself, as it allows for gamma, contrast, brightness and color control manipulation outside of the PJ's settings. If you DVD player or PC allows for this, then leave the settings I have stated alone, at those stated points and indulge in subtle settings changes on the HTPC or the DVD player. This will give the best results, overall.

Have fun!

Was this a direct or reflected measurement? (i.e. photons out of the PJ or reflected of the grey? screen)

if reflected, would you expect any colorimetery differences if one was using a matte-white (BO cloth) screen?

Any particular reason you settled with cinema 3 mode? Did you use the overall B/C to set black/white levels and the ‘advanced’ individual B/C controls for D65 grey scale tracking?

My overall B/C start settings for MY HTPC source are quite different- B-9 and C-1 for an AVIA calibration but I’m also using ‘normal’ mode and have all the ‘advanced’ at default except the gamma which I coincidentally subjectively set the same as you have measured. I have a RFI modded 9800 pro video card running RGBHV to the panny.

Thanks for the report. I’ll give it a go. I’ll keep an eye out (my good one!) for more killer mods for this PJ from you.

Dave

So, what was before/after CR? Also, using a CC filter has improved others' calibration efforts- of course you give up a bit of brightness.

Originally posted by dlarsen
Was this a direct or reflected measurement? (i.e. photons out of the PJ or reflected of the grey? screen)

If reflected, would you expect any colorimetery differences if one was using a matte-white (BO cloth) screen?

This was a reflected measurement, off the Digital Grey Goo screen,and it won't change if used via a white screen. The gray is neutral.

Any particular reason you settled with cinema 3 mode? Did you use the overall B/C to set black/white levels and the ‘advanced’ individual B/C controls for D65 gray scale tracking?

Cinema 3 mode was the closest to d6500 out of all the settings. The PJ has about 40 hours on it so far, which is a factor.


My overall B/C start settings for MY HTPC source are quite different- B-9 and C-1 for an AVIA calibration but I’m also using ‘normal’ mode and have all the ‘advanced’ at default except the gamma which I coincidentally subjectively set the same as you have measured. I have a RFI modded 9800 pro video card running RGBHV to the panny.


The brightness contrast were manipulated along with the RGB controls, and the Gamma settings to give the most linear gamma ramp. The gamma straight out of the box is incredibly 'garish' and extreme, at best. It completely flat tops the 75-100 IRE levels..and it is far too muted in the lowest. This gives an exaggerated gamma curve in the middle range, and with the limited ANSI CR of a LCD PJ, this gives the "impression' of CR. The Infocus X-1 is the same way. The gamma is basically impossible to correct on either.

Thanks for the report. I’ll give it a go. I’ll keep an eye out (my good one!) for more killer mods for this PJ from you.

Dave

Welcome

The basic CR of the unit, as it came from the factory, was 1700:1, on average. The ANSI checkerboard CR ranged from 65-70:1. Average for a LCD unit. It's what I expected to see,and that's what showed up. Give the settings a shot. I liked what I saw.

The CR is largely irrelevant, in my estimation. Does it look good or not?

I assume the AE700 is under High lamp mode and Dynamic iris On, right?

What's the lumen output before and after D65 calibration? Thanks in advance.

And what gain is your wall paint? :D

regards,

Li On

Li On
I assume the AE700 is under High lamp mode and Dynamic iris On, right?

Yes. The projector was in high mode, Dynamic Iris on. THe shift from low to high power made little or no difference to the CR measurements, as expected.

What's the lumen output before and after D65 calibration? Thanks in advance.

That's difficult measure with Goo Systems coatings, without considerable effort. The gain is different it how it is portrayed. The gain is variable, via application method. One of it's greater assets and charms. One can reach a gain as high as 2.0 with Goo systems CRT White, or vary the gain peak and spread of the gain curve, down to a picture perfect 1.2: one can spray 2 liters of CRT white topcoat on a CRT Goo screen, and make a screen that makes one's jaw drop, every time one sits down in front of it to watch something.

And what gain is your wall paint? :D

See above.

All stock and post color calibration information graphing has been preserved via digital camera storage, in accordance with AVS anality laws.

I will also be attempting to calibrate other video modes for the best linearity. This would give a range of calibration settings for folks to play with, that have a relatively known accuracy.

Hmm... when I mean lumen output I mean using a light meter at the screen center, FACING TOWARD the projector. Get the reading and convert to lumen value. It has nothing to do with your Goo gain! :D

regards,

Li On

Originally posted by rocktim
Hey Darren
Just wanted to say I am in the same boat... beautiful picture with hdmi @ 720p and 1080i with my panasonic 97 ... it uses the same faroudja chipset and I also have tried different hdmi cables.. both very short cables of about 3 feet... and still have occasional flashes.. can't seem to set wss to manual even with s-video? all inputs have this option greyed out.. I will say that for some reason the last few movies... have had less flashes.. or I have missed them... I have logged about 57 hours on my projector.. would love to get the flash thing pinned down.. but they seem to be happening less frequently than before which is good... maybe it is the faroudja chipset upconversion... people have reported no flashes with the new sony hdmi player?? thanks Tim

I too thought it was the faroudja chipset, so I exchanged my Denon 1910 for the Sony 975V DVD player. I am still experiencing the same frequency of white flashes with my new player. Maybe there is a defect in the projector... or I wonder if there is a firmware upgrade or something. This is my only major problem with the projector... VB is really a non-issue with me, as it mostly goes away after the projector warms up. Does anyone have a solution to the white flash yet? I may just ditch HDMI and go component, but I really don't want to :(

Don't tease the man, he can't help himself with all that Goo.

Here's a bit of info that might place it in perspective: The projector measured via colorfacts, a level of overall output in the 85-90 cd/m^2 range, pre-calibration. Post calibration in the Cinema 3 mode, it measured 35-40 cd/m^2. This is not the lumen count, but a simple comparative number. ie, 85-90, then divided by the 35-40, which gives you a light drop in the output of a factor of approximately two. That's about normal for a HT projection unit. Nothing comes for free, 'iffin you recall the rest of your personal life story.....

A furthur comment on the situation regarding the Gamma curves being non-linear. All or many lower end (price wise) projectors are guilty in that regard, to some degree. Specifically LCD projectors can be an issue. Not a big issue, if it can be calibrated out, while maintaining a pleasing image. Sometimes the two do not meet. As you can see, many times the light output drops drastically.

Perhaps one of the other stock settings, after manipulation, will show itself to have better gamma ramping. I will hopefully have time to explore every single setting, recording the results along the way.

I gave your setting a go last night. It appears we have VERY different black levels from our source. Black levels were significantly raised using your settings so contrast was very poor. Perhaps you are using studio RGB levels? (ie black at ~45mV vs 0)

Dave

As I (sort of) said, this is rough experimentation. As I get to know how the AE700 behaves, the results will get better.

Excellent measurements do not always end in creating a pleasing image, the same way excellent audio equipment specifications don't always make for a good sounding piece of audio equipment. You have to mess with the settings a bit..but not much! it will skew things drastically. I would suggest the gamma as being a place to play with, or the settings on the DVD player or HTPC's DVD software. this will not alter the way the PJ presents the image, but it will alter what is going into it. This would produce what might be the most linear behaving modification of the settings, while leaving the PJ to produce the most linear results. Do you see what I mean?


Here's a prime example:

NATURAL setting

Contrast -3
Bright +1

Sharpness (wherever the heck you like it)
Color temp +1
Dynamic Iris On


Gamma high -1
Gamma Mid -1
Gamma low 0

Contrast R +4
Contrast G -3
Contrast B -7

Bright R -6
Bright G +2
Bright B -8

You might find that looks considerably more pleasing.

Look at the setting as a place to start. Only make subtle changes, one at a time...

With these stated settings, the gamma ramp is about 1.8, on average, and the CR is 1000:1, on average. Linearity is definitely there, in the image. Watch it for a while, and you will see what I mean.

Originally posted by dlarsen
I gave your setting a go last night. It appears we have VERY different black levels from our source. Black levels were significantly raised using your settings so contrast was very poor. Perhaps you are using studio RGB levels? (ie black at ~45mV vs 0)

Dave

The measurements are done via a computer laptop, and then tested via DVD players on a HTPC or a separate DVD unit, ie.,.... a Panasonic RP-56, modified. So there is no issue with the black level being raised.

Try leaving the color and gamma as is, and mess with the basic controls like Contrast and brightness.

Remember, a LCD image is inherently flat, and a garish presentation of the image may be pleasing in the short term.. or it may be pleasing in the long term, who knows. Each person's sensitivity is different. A LCD unit can't really do perfect D6500 and a perfect gamma ramp.. all at the same time without washing out the image. A lack of ANSI CR accounts for that aspect of the image presentation. You can get to that image 'pop' you want out of the unit, as you sacrifice detail and linearity. Caveat Emptor.

Just spent some time demoing the NATURAL settings with "The Fifth Element" Superbit. Much better. LCD is finally getting to the place where HT DLP units were at, 3 years ago.

I wonder how many people will read this (hopefully) fairly relevant calibration thread, compared to the insectoid scrabble at the top of the forum. :rolleyes: :D

So there is no issue with the black level being raised.

But there are different black/white voltage levels depending on which RGB space one is using.
sRGB @ 0mV for black and 700mV for white vs Studio RGB @ 43.9mV for black and 645mV for white.

With overall brightness @ +1 and green brightness @ +6, I can’t get anywhere near black with my source. I’ll temporarily revisit your setting by adjusting my source. (Until I get my own photometer…)

Thanks again.

Dave

Just try the 'natural' settings instead. As I stated as an EDIT in the top or original posting, I'll go back to the Cinema 3 mode and revisit the calibration procedure as I learn more about the PJ. You may find that the image looks better with the newer settings, I'd imagine.

Here is some settings that naturalize the NORMAL setting..as much as it is possible to do so, without ruining the CR by too much. This is probably the best balance that can be achieved on the NORMAL setting.


Contrast -3
Bright 0

Color temp -2
Iris ON, of course

Gamma High -1
Gamma mid 0
Gamma Low 0

Contrast R +1
Contrast G -5
Contrast B -4

Bright R -13
Bright G -0
Bright B -2


There is some aberration in the color temp, but to correct it, the balance of everything else gos all to hecky-poo. It will be seen as a slightly elevated blue-red cast to things, overall. More like a mis-adjusted TV..what most people are used to. Compare that to the natural settings, which worked out quite well as far as having a natural color temp goes.

CR is about the same as the natural result, varying from 1000:1 to 1200:1, overall. Difficult to measure accurately. It is visible, though. Output is about 50% higher in peak levels, compared to that of the Natural settings.

I haver a thread started where I have been calibrating all the different settings of the AE700 PJ for maximum linearity with the Colorfacts calibration package. See what you think:

Calibration thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=479560)

Update on the 'white flash' issue. Can't believe I didn't think about trying this before. AE700U connected to Denon 2910 via Monster HDMI-HDMI cable.

NO DVD playing. It was just the default gray screen (selectable on the Denon player between blue, gray or Denon logo when nothing is playing or no DVD is inserted) and as I was doing something else after finishing a movie and before starting another one, took about 45 minutes (delay was longer than expected) and whaddya know? WHITE FLASH!!! So NO, it is NOT caused by the Faroudja chip, since I wouldn't think the chip is processing anything when it's just showing the default screen and nothing is playing.

RE-POSTED FROM THE MAIN THREAD

There have been a couple of recent augmentations to Aussie Bob's AE-700 cinema project:

1. The Demountable Screen.
I had been using some blackout cloth stuck up onto a pelmet in our living room with thumb tacks, until I made a final decision on how I was going to lay my (laughingly-called) "Home Theatre" out. This became too much of a pain to mantle and dismantle. So I went and bought some heavy duty 1-inch dowel (two 3.6 metre [142 inch] lengths) and some curtain knobs to screw into each end of the dowel (pictured in the attached jpgs). Hilarious scenes at the hardware store as A.B. tried to manoeuvre the two dowels through the checkouts without decapitating staff and/or customers... but that's another story. Also purchased some removable wooden hooks to hang the whole thing on and hey presto! A roll-uppable, take-downable 136 inch screen (with approximately 110x48 inch active picture area at 2.35:1... also pictured). When the screen's completely rolled up (via the knobs at each end of the dowel) I stash it behind the sofa (screen side "in") and remove the wooden hooks and all Her Rolling Pin can see are three sets of screws (painted white to camouflage them) in the pelmet. This is below her Irritation Threshold, so Aussie Bob survives to write this post.

The only mod I made to this setup (and this was anticipated) was to install a middle hook to provide support and prevent bowing in the middle. This middle hook sticks through a gap at the top of the screen... a small penalty to pay for complete demountability and stability while mounted. An added bonus is that I have a duplicate set of mounts in the upstairs area of the house and I can take the screen down from the living room and move it upstairs to Cinema #2 in five minutes. I'm even considering setting it up on our deck and having a "Cinema Under The Stars set-up". Why not?

Getting the screen to hang without kinks and creases took half an hour to perfect (best done when the screen is actually hanging). The final, de-kinked setup was tacked with a stapler as it hung, then taken down and hemmed properly on a sewing machine.

Total cost? A$45 for the blackout material, $70 for the curtain dowell and fittings. Tools: cordless drill, spirit level, Philips screwdriver, plus Her rolling Pin's sewing machine (for the top and bottom hems, once you get rid of the kinks in situ). To wind up the whole contraption, I glued the right-hand knob to the dowel (as well as screwing it in). This is because, winding it up (and keeping the screen side "in"), the direction of wind (counter-clockwise) also tends to unscrew the knob. So, add a hot-glue gun to the tools list.

2. Experiments with projector tuning filters (size of 2.35:1 screen is approximately 10 feet across)
My first "by eye" choice was correct: Lee Filters "Light Salmon", catalog number #109. Since guessing the filter by eye (and using the Lee Filters swatch for samples), I've evolved a technique for using a Nikon D100 ("Overcast" -2 white balance setting, 6400K) to photograph the screen as 50% gray is projected onto it, entering the RGB numbers of the resulting "gray" image (actually "gray" plus some unwanted cyan "haze" or bias illumination, the result of imperfections in the optics of the projector) into an Excel spreadsheet and coming out with the best "neutralizing" filter to get the "no-signal blacks" as achromatic (and hence as dark) as possible: in other words, a filter that filters out the haze.

This technique has been mentioned in a previous post, and it's a lot more involved than I thought, necessitating an understanding of how gamma curves and densities are calculated and transferred back and forth between Photoshop, the D100 and Excel (plus a "fudge-factor" column to make everything "right"). Many happy hours of Googling and reading technical PDFs right there...

A bonus to my research was an augmentation of the Excel spreadsheet I figured out for use with my flatbed scanner. As Lee Filters don't publish the Color Correction values of their filters - they just name them subjectively e.g. "Light salmon", "Flesh Pink", "Sunset Red" etc. - I figured out a way to scan them and then to turn the RGB values obtained into Color Correction factors (hint: start with ND filters... the Rs, Gs and Bs should all be equal.. if they're not, start using fudge-factors until they are... after that, everything else should come out correct, too). Each Color Correction unit equals 1/30th of a stop, by the way. It was only when I did this that I discovered that the "Light Salmon" filter was the closest Lee filter to my calculated, theoretically "ideal" filter for tuning the AE-700. The fudge-factor inputs are unique to each scanner and scanner gamma setting, but apart from that, all the other Excel calculations are based on rigorous theory, properly and soberly applied (I think).

To celebrate my (seemingly correct) decision to go with "Light Salmon", I went to the local Panavision shop (in McLachan Ave., Artarmon, Sydney for Aussies reading this) and shelled out $19 for a one-metre sheet of the stuff, plus A$85 for a 77mm mount "Clear Glass" filter. Geez, they know how to charge! No wonder movies cost a squillion dollars to make... at those prices!

Are Lee Filter sheets curly, or what? They're rolled up so tightly that it's impossible to flatten them out without "special" measures. Cutting a bit out and sticking it inside a book for 24 hours didn't even touch the sides. I swear I heard the Lee Filters wallahs laughing from afar at my pathetic attempts to tame their cursed gel. Eventually I applied the blowtorch to the belly and gave it The Treatment using a very low iron. Stick the gel between two sheets of printer paper, iron on a low heat for ten seconds and then stick it between the pages of a heavy book while still warm. Wait ten minutes and, voila!, a big sheet of Lee Filter bent (or rather, flattened) to my iron will. For some reason this gave me immense satisfaction: a backyard Aussie showing the mighty Lee Boys that we don't take no s--t Downunder.

For the final, finishing touch, I cut out a circular piece of this flattened gel (72mm diameter, slightly smaller than the filter diameter), bevelled off the top and bottom edges and stuck it to the back of the clear glass filter with sticky tape. After screwing the filter onto the AE-700, I now have a dust-proof filter assembly. All I need to clean is the glass front of the filter. The rest is sealed. This is also pictured in the jpgs.

Well (I hear you ask), is there an improvement? The answer is an emphatic "Yes". Blacks are richer, achromatic and contrast is vastly improved.

OK, what about the downside? Well, the "Light Salmon" filter modulates the lumen output of the AE-700 by just over 2/3rds of a stop: 23 Color Correction units (i.e. it nearly halves the PJ's brightness). Also, despite the blacks being now achromatic, the lighter tones are decidedly pink; so this needs to be compensated for.

Cine4Home picked "VIDEO" mode as their choice of mode to support the increased PQ that filtration provided. I went all the way and settled on "DYNAMIC" to increase brightness.

"DYNAMIC" is a wild beast: sharpening, contrast and brightness are wound out to the max to give the absolutely brightest "light cannon" output the projector is capable of. In short, it's horrible! But it can be tamed.

The basic approach I took was to never increase any BRIGHTNESS slider in ADVANCE set-up mode. I took out my pinks by reducing RED contrast and brightness, leaving BLUE and GREEN at "0" or less. As long as you don't increase brightness, then the no-signal blacks will stay at their darkest possible. Reducing brightness will not appreciably make the no-signal black any darker, or change its color temperature (because, by definition, it's as black as the projector can go, it's the "all pixels absolutely OFF" black level). But increasing brightness - any brightness - just adds numbers to all pixel levels that the slider affects, including no-signal black. So avoid the temptation to brighten your image with the "brightness" sliders (funny, eh?). It only makes the image less contrasty, and more muddy.

My "final" settings (always, of course, subject to change according to film transfer quality and personal whim) were:

PICTURE MENU
PICTURE MODE: DYNAMIC
CONTRAST: +4
BRIGHT: 0
COLOR: -4
TINT: 0
SHARP: -4
COLOR TEMP: 0
DYNAMIC IRIS: ON


ADVANCE MENU
GAMMA HIGH: 0
GAMMA MID: +3
GAMMA LOW: +3

CONTRAST R: -10
CONTRAST G: 0
CONTRAST B: 0

BRIGHT R: -5
BRIGHT G: 0
BRIGHT B: 0

with the Sony DVD player in either "Dynamic #1" mode or "Cinema #1" modes (both slightly "punchy"). To taste, reduce overall CONTRAST (the one in the PICTURE menu), even down to negative numbers, depending on the gamma of the film you're watching. But the above settings are my "basic" ones, committed to MEMORY-1 of the AE-700. You can also fool around with Color Management settings, mainly to reduce "yellowness" in flesh tones. But this is a matter of personal taste.

The Washup
How does Her Rolling Pin feel about all this? Well, she sat down the other night - after all of the above was complete - watched and really enjoyed two surprisingly entertaining movies (Spiderman II and I, Robot that really came alive on the Big, Big (and very flat) Screen (with nary a "pink" in sight) - and then said, "Great movies, Aussie Bob, but I'm sick of this house being turned into a BLOODY PICTURE SHOW!!!"

Moral Of Story
As has ever been the case in the history of Male v. Female interaction: you can't win 'em all... Her Rolling Pin will always find a way to burst any, and every bubble you blow in her direction.

Late-breaking update...
She has now calmed down, even rang from work next day to apologize for the outburst. Clincher: she's invited some of her girlfriends around to watch Under The Tuscan Sun... "on the Big, Big Screen" (cute film, by the way... I think I am deeply in love with Diane Lane... One thing I know: I know that I wouldn't send her back home to Cortona from the Amalfi Coast if she came calling on me in that white dress... no-sireee, Bob...and, Joy Of Joys, according to her I.M.D.B. biog, Di's a Home Cinema aficianado... how I would love to explain the finer points of Projector Fine Tuning, or Screen Hanging to her, and her alone, behind the big, big blackout cloth, as I progressively scan her...sigh... I fear it may never be...).

Postscript
H.R.P. and Aussie Bob may disagree on many things, but we'll always have Cortona.

We didn't always have it. We... we lost it for a while. But we got it back. Before Osama, terrorism, Neo-Cons, Iraq and Under The Tuscan Sun we had Cortona all to ourselves. We discovered it one lovely summer's day in June 2001, quite by accident, and only because there weren't any hotel rooms at Trasimino. We instantly fell in love with the place... and each other, all over again.

Sweet little cobble-stoned streets; centuries old hotels; a centro full of happy promenaders on Sunday morning; that Opera House which couldn't possibly fit into such a small building... but it does; psychopathic Italian drivers in little Fiats with the sides bashed in, no mirrors left, and the only piece of apparatus still working being the horn...

If you've been there, you'll know exactly what I mean. It'sa Belissima!

So, if she wants to watch the Tuscan Movie with her girlfriends on the Big, Big Screen, who am I to deny her - and myself - the pleasure? I even get to cook for The Gaggle. What joy! The bottom line is this: if it takes a blatantly sentimental girly-movie to make Aussie Bob's Home Cinema part of the Domestic Furniture, then so be it.

I ain't complainin'.

And the wide-angle view (still don't know how to post two images attached to the one post).

Hey Bob, with the blinds and bead-board paneling (on the walls) do you ever notice VB? :D

I'll take a shot at trying out your settings, but the PJ is already too hot on the top of it's ranges (In terms of linear gamma ramping,a nd the red output simply isn't there. I ahve a ton of ROSCO filters about, sI can use 'pink salmon' as well.) to begin.

Pushing the controls too far out their ranges..in disagreeance with one another, can result in some very noticeable degradation of detail, and incorrect delination of color..the two being combined. What to watch out for is a 'cartoonish' casting of the colors. Severe loss of detail, which on it's own helps portray realism and puts depth into the image. Subtlety of image detail is key here.

The 'natural' and 'normal' settings I stated both do this nicely. If one was to play with the controls after setting them as I stated, one would play with the low gamma by a notch..and then the brightness (the singular brightness control) by a notch or two..at most. Then, control brightness in the DVD player, or the DVD program on the HTPC. The results from going back and forth between these final tweak points do much to improve the presentation in the low level scenes. Just remember to not stray too far off your starting points, and leave the color/tint controls alone, if oyu are driving via a DVD player. The colors are already correct in their RGB levels and mix levels. Just mess with the low gamma and the brightness, as a final touch.

I'm not a fan of the filters because they ruin or damage a ANSI CR that is already cutting close to the limit. "Just a little bit more flatness' is a large price to pay for the small increase in other areas, in my opinion. One may play with the filters, but one may also find after much experimentation, that the image looks better without.

I have a method of keeping the peak brightness up very high, while maintaining maximum linearity, Maximum color fidelity, all while maintaining maximum ANSI CR. It has nothing to do with filters, and it gives maximum image linearity. It is startling to see..

I thoroughly enjoyed watching DVD's on this particular set up. The first time I sat and watched a LCD without noticing that I was using one. For me, that takes -- quite some-- doing.

A new coating from Goo Systems is what it is. Calibrated just for this type of situation.


Stay tuned.

I intend to try your natural mode settings tonight and see what kind of a difference it makes. I have logged 100 hrs on my AE700 without touching any of the "out of box" settings and my wife and I are very pleased with what we see. FYI...we've been watching a 34" 16:1 Panasonic Tau HDTV for the past 4 years.

My question relates to whether the type screen you are using plays into any tweaking approach? My assumption is that what you may see on your screen will look different from what I may see on my screen (92" HDTV dalite designer contour electrol with high power). So if I use your adjustments the results rendered will be different, therefore, it is of little benefit to use someone else's tweak numbers.

I hope I'm wrong as I would like to adjust my pj but I don't have a calibration DVD (well, I have Avia, but I found it almost useless when I tried to adjust the Tau...I basically just did a "what looks good to me" adjustment as what they said to look for while tweaking wasn't very apparent).

I would think that you would need a reference point to start and your comments about not adjusting too far off factory are helpful. I'm going to try this "natural mode" adjustment anyway....but would like to hear your opinion on my question.

Thanks,

Bob

KBK
How nice is it to have a filter after a dichroic filter in the light path of the lcd before a panel. This is the approach from Epson. This wouldn´t cause any ANSI cr degradation.

Which lcd-projectors have the best ANSI cr? Is hs51 one of them with a modified (->lower value as a result) ANSI cr of 150:1?

KBK said: I'm not a fan of the filters because they ruin or damage a ANSI CR that is already cutting close to the limit. "Just a little bit more flatness' is a large price to pay for the small increase in other areas, in my opinion. One may play with the filters, but one may also find after much experimentation, that the image looks better without.

You're not necessarily correct there, KBK. To my mind, the whole point of using the filter is to increase contrast.

Here's why: the no-signal black (RGB all = "0") is the darkest "black" the projector can produce. Yet, there is a haze over it, consisting of mostly excess B and G. This haze does nothing for detail. All it serves to accomplish is to reduce contrast, by making no-signal blacks not quite "black". The idea of the filter (Light Salmon is magentaish-yellowish) is to provide a basis for cutting back on the B and G haze in the blacks, but not to interfere with the R part of the "black" signal. Hence, after filtration, no-signal blacks should have:

(a) less haze (and be thus closer to achromatic, "no-color" black) and
(b) more "blackness" because the B and G haze elements have been reduced.

This leaves the problem of the mids and highlights, which take on a decidedly "pinkish" appearance. I use the individual color contrast and brightness controls (in the ADVANCE menu) to remove the pink by reducing R, rather than increasing B and G.

If you increase any of the brightness sliders above "0" then this will add brightness to all levels, including the no-signal black level. Conversely, reducing any brightness level cannot darken the no-signal black, since no-signal black is, by definition, at its blackest already. Reducing brightness sliders will, however, reduce the particular color in the mids and highlights, which is what I needed to do to remove the pink cast.

In effect, using the filter outside the internal optical system of the projector (i.e. screwed onto the front of the lens after the haze has been added internally) "anchors" the no-signal black at its blackest and most achromatic state, allowing you to "rubber-band" the brightness curves of individual colors to remove color cast from the mids and highlights.

Potential for dimming of the picture is as follows:

(a) the filter itself removes about 2/3rds of a stop of light.
(b) reflection by the filter back into the light path removes more.
(c) reflection from the rear face of the clear glass filter removes more.

All in all, my estimate is that about a whole stop is lost by my process. The light is halved. In order to get back some of this lost light I use the projector in high-bulb mode, coupled with DYNAMIC picture mode. "Taming" DYNAMIC mode is an exacting process but, as I proposed above, it can be done.

The resulting pictures keep all but the very brightest "near white" highlights in the most contrasty movies. Reducing the CONTRAST slider can very often reduce the (already minimal) loss of these highlights. A good telecine transfer leaves some headroom in the whites and many movies do not require this extra muting of CONTRAST. Likewise, the MID gamma slider can be reduced back to +1 or even 0, depending (once again) on the quality and nature of the transfer (using a projector amplifies flaws and enhancements in transfers much more than a relatively small CRT tube will ever do).

By contrast (forgive the pun), the three CINEMA modes and NATURAL look awfully muddy and dim. NORMAL and VIDEO come closer, but don't quite have the punch that DYNAMIC has. Their colors may be OK, but they're just that little bit too dim (quite dim for the CINEMA and NATURAL modes) for the large size of image I prefer (about 110 inches across), especially with Cinemascope format titles which require even more enlargement.

On Telecine Transfers Generally
I know that, in theory, telecine transfers destined for DVD are supposed to be the highest quality possible. Certainly, if they are originated in high definition (as most recent movies have been) and then interpolated down to PAL and NTSC resolution, they would probably have been created as flat and unenhanced as possible. But I suspect that somewhere in the interpolation process instructions are given from the producers or wonks in the movie company management chain to "add a bit of sparkle" to the lower resolution images by means of extra unsharp masking, more contrast and brighter colors in particular. DVD transfers are destined for consumption by the masses, most of whom (despite our little perfectionist cadre here) have relatively small, traditional CRT screens to watch their movies on. They take little pride in adjusting their set-ups to achieve 6500K nirvana. They have the contrast wound out too far and colors too high. They like bright pictures and plenty of them. So the movie companies provide what their public wants.... not in all cases, and not as much nowadays, but regularly enough.

Result? A nice, sharp, punchy image on a 76cm CRT screen. But when the same title is projected 110 inches across the long axis, with a wider, closer viewing angle (because projector aficianados like BIG cinema-type screen dimensions) the artificial sharpening halos around light-to-dark transitions are about an inch wide and stick out like a sore thumb. MPEG artefacts in static scenes sparkle... and distract. Detailless shadow detail, only part of an eyeful on a TV ten feet away, becomes the whole eyeful when you're looking at a projected image five or six times the width of your TV image... and then you notice for the first time that there's just no meaningful information there under this actor's chin or that actor's eyelids... at all.

So we tweak to try and defeat the "helpful enhancements" that the movie companies have so thoughtfully provided us. We reduce sharpness, contrast and color (the COLOR slider reduction is about the only tweak universally agreed upon by tweak advisers here).

I'm not certain that being able to present a movie exactly as it was projected in a cinema, from film, isn't a Holy Grail that may never be found until DVD authoring companies and production designers realise that their "enhancements" show up poorly on the increasing numbers of big screens - projection and plasma - that are being introduced into domestic homes. I guess what I'm saying is that it's all very well and good to make your projector conform to a test signal, but it's a pity that DVD companies don't seem to have used the same test signal (or have wilfully ignored it) when they author their titles.

A well scanned, 35mm film-originated, high bit-rate transfer is truly a joy to behold on the AE-700, almost indistinguishable from what we remember the actual movie looked like at the cinema complex when we saw it a year or so ago (even more convincing if we never saw the cinema version). Suspension of disbelief and immersion in the program material (rather than VB and white-flash complaints) overcomes any residual resistance to the fact that we're watching an image - the product of an imaging system designed in the 1950s before even video tape existed - that was never intended to be blown-up to more than about 24 inches across. That suspension of disbelief is as good as it will get. Unfortunately, much of the enhancements that we are dished-up by the movie corporations, seeking to serve the lowest common denominator, serve to diminish this ideal state of viewer appreciation.

I've found my own tweaks and can finally rest easy with almost any DVD transfer I care to throw up on the screen without having to endlessly adjust the display parameters to suit the particular, individual program. A tweak here, a tweak there if I'm feeling picky, but not much more than that.

That, to me, is bliss. The Holy Grail of perfection will have to wait for another day.

KBK,

Keep up the good work. As most of us don't have filters, I am looking forward to trying your settings in the different modes.

I am also interested in your comments on how different screens affect calibration and therefore are one person's settings applicable to a different screen.

Since this is the tweak thread, did anyone purchase their projector here:
http://www.ausmedia.com.au/panasonicae500.htm

They are supposed to have some VB and flicker adjustment details in a password protected article. Interesting.......

KBK, thank you, thank you, thank you.
After a quickie black and white level tweaking for my setup, your Normal settings have really improved things alot for me over my previous best attempts. More detail and 3d look to me, and less screendoor. At the least a very good starting point.
Go Goo man!

I also have to admit my blacks do look a little, teeny weeny bit green to me.

Originally posted by MMan
Since this is the tweak thread, did anyone purchase their projector here:
http://www.ausmedia.com.au/panasonicae500.htm

They are supposed to have some VB and flicker adjustment details in a password protected article. Interesting.......

Let me guess, a copy and paste of the first page of this thread, only "service menu" was changed to "secret menu"?



:o

Originally posted by dogger2
KBK,

Keep up the good work. As most of us don't have filters, I am looking forward to trying your settings in the different modes.

I am also interested in your comments on how different screens affect calibration and therefore are one person's settings applicable to a different screen.

There is a far, far, far, far larger variation in color, or 'chromatic aberration' within any..oh... three of the AE700's being used in this thread, compared to the color tonality of -any- two given white or gray screens, or any combination thereof. That should be explanation enough about color shifting, and black levels, etc.,and whether it is a question in my attempts at calibration...and passing that information on. Good screens don't actually measure much different in color shift, but the eye remains sensitive to it.

With the natural and normal settings I have proposed, you should see much more correct colors, much more even (meaning at any brightness) gamma (depth of image) effects, much more fine detail, and dimensionality of things. Less cartoonish garishness in the image. It should also make Vertical Banding much less noticeable. You might want to bring your overall contrast control down to the -5 range, as well. It cuts peak whites, but linearizes the 90-100 IRE range nicely.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Once the CR gets high enough in any given projector, the subtle shortening of the image created by the use of filters gets to be noticeable. I could see it in modified NEC LT-150 XGA (800:1 CR)units, I suspect it is visible here too. I would rather have the immediate 'sharpness' of peaking that is afforded by use of the PJ without filters. UNLESS you choose to use some of the best high end coated glass filters. That minimizes the loss and it is still noticeable there.

I have to test on 'neutral' screens at work, as I have, uh...er.... other types of screens at home.

I have left-to-right blue-to-red shift on my particular brand new AE700, which I'm hoping to cure by correcting the optical path. This seems to be the place where it has come from. Looking at the internal light path of a LCD projector (which I haven't done for quite some time) I can see a multitude of places where issues can form, or take place. It's a wonder they work at all. But they do work.

OK. Just took the unit apart,and re-set the polarizing filter for the green channel.

Run your AE-700 projector in the 'shutter' mode. Your screen should be a uniform black, or in this case gray, but it should be a bluish/red black, not one with a green cast. If it has a green cast at all, the adjustable polarizer for the green channel is out of alignment, and you are loosing CR. If it is not exactly placed, or aligned with the Green channel LCD, you get a greenish cast to that black level. The difference could be remarkable, down in the near blacks, if this is aligned badly,and then properly.

NOW..the important part. Don't get all anal and swing out of control here.. just do the simple test. Make sure what you see is greenish in tint, before getting all frantic, if you are prone to such behavior.

I'm curious how many may have an issue with this. I suspect not many. I mention it, merely because it is plausible to possibly have an issue with this.

It would be nice if the blue and red were adjustable too..but alas..they felt the green was enough. There may be a perfectly valid design reason for doing it that way, so don't jump to any conclusions.

I haven't manged to fix my chromatic aberration, but I think I just subtly improved the black level. I am sure that some may benefit,and other PJ's will not.

KBK, you're right to say there is probably variation between individual units. The settings and filter I gave for my situation were quite clearly caveated as "try it and see." Until I worked out and tested the filter values I thought I could use and purchased the clear glass filter to mount the gel behind, the exercise didn't cost a red cent, as I used sample filters from the readily available swatch book. It was hardly a panic-stricken process.

But taking a projector apart to tweak is troubling; a whole new ball game. It could cost plenty if the smallest mistake is made. Apart from warranty considerations, all kinds of nasties can get into the optical path: from dog hairs to bits of grunge that just happen to be floating past the projector at the time. Once in, I'd opine they're real hard to get out.

Adding a filter to the front of the lens is less fraught with danger and delivered (at least to me) very much improved results. Being in the electronics business I'm not afraid of pulling pieces of equipment apart to see how they work (and to hopefully fix them), but when it might cost me an arm and a leg to rectify a mistake I'm more circumspect about diving in the deep end.

You have a curious mixture of apparent respect for the factory picture settings of this device (with the implication that all units will be equally good in these areas) and a seeming scepticism of its hardware set-up, enough to pull your own unit apart and re-set the green polarising filter.

I'll admit that opening the lid of my own projector would be akin to opening the lid of Pandora's Box, unless I had a clean room (as Panasonic's factory and your good self undoubtedly do) and then I'd still be nervous. Call me a wimp for staying away from open heart surgery on my projector, but that would be the last thing I'd ever do.