Originally posted by videobruce
NeedMoreToys; do you think those 1.5" legs with the dowels are enough lateral support? The stand looks nice and clean looking.
You have at least two more tools than I have. A jointer and a biscuit cutter (I forgot what they are called).

I think so. Part of the rational for the 22" wide "vanity cover" (aside from some place to attach things) was to improve lateral support. I was just going to use eight 1.5" legs, but it looked too "spindley" on paper. I felt better with 10 more dowels and the extra gluing surface.

Biscuit cutters are also known as plate joiners. They are very easy to use and you can make large boards very quickly compared to all the other options. A lot of woodworkers consider them "cheating".

I attached a pic of the backside. Even with the wire channels, it is still a mess back there.

That's a really nice piece, NMT! Good that you had the jointer, and could make those 20" panels. I have a really nice source of hardwood veneer plywood nearby, so I tend to build my casework etc. out of hardwood ply. Plain sawn oak veneer can look really nice (usually the best you can do in Home Depot is rotary-cut, which is pretty horrid looking), but nothing compares to "the real thing." Bet that was a pretty heavy piece to carry around, huh?

NMT...

Using bisquits is not cheating! ;) I have a DeWalt unit and I love it although I did not use it on this project (probably should've). Made a ton of extra deep pine shelves for my garage. And yeah... a huge 24" belt sander would be nice, but in the real world (not Norm's) we have to live with palm and 4" belt sanders. :)

Using solid wood also has it's benefits, especially when it comes to staining and finishing edges. And honestly, I think there's some added strength from a well-constructed solid piece as opposed to plywood... even when its rabbeted or plate joined.

I inherited my father's 4" jointer, and one thing I never paid much attention to was zeroing out the fence beyond using the guide.

I attached a pic of the backside. Even with the wire channels, it is still a mess back there. Gee! It never looks that way in the ads for furniture or equipment!;)

Just what are you referring to as the "vanity cover"? I'm surprised you didn't have a middle shelf so equipment wasn't sitting on top of equipment. Foe no other reason; heat dissipation, easier access and strength/support.

Here is the stand with the stain drying.

Here is the middle shelf with the controversial molding;

Originally posted by NeedMoreToys
I think so. Part of the rational for the 22" wide "vanity cover" (aside from some place to attach things) was to improve lateral support. I was just going to use eight 1.5" legs, but it looked too "spindley" on paper. I felt better with 10 more dowels and the extra gluing surface.

Biscuit cutters are also known as plate joiners. They are very easy to use and you can make large boards very quickly compared to all the other options. A lot of woodworkers consider them "cheating".

I attached a pic of the backside. Even with the wire channels, it is still a mess back there.

It's nice that you were able to use all hardwood. I was going to try joining two or three 8" solid red oak boards using my plate joiner, but became worried that it would be too much trouble to plane the surface if there were any warps, inconsistencies etc. I instead went with plywood sheets of Honduras mahogany and trim. The plan is for a 79"L x 20"H x 20"D three bay stand. The center bay will be 38" wide to house a 36" wide Magnepan center channel. I've got most of the parts cut and I need to start laying out the biscuit cuts for assembly. Doors will come later. Aside from the plate joiner, the most impressive tool so far has been the random orbital sander. I'll post pictures when the project gets moving again.

This is the tower cavity that I really screwed up by not wrapping the molding around. Not too happy about this, but didn't want to rip the glued/nailed in molding out and trash it.

This is the rear view that is worse because of the joint. It will be covered/hidden by the tower so it isn't a total disaster.

Originally posted by Kenlex
That's a really nice piece, NMT! Good that you had the jointer, and could make those 20" panels. I have a really nice source of hardwood veneer plywood nearby, so I tend to build my casework etc. out of hardwood ply. Plain sawn oak veneer can look really nice (usually the best you can do in Home Depot is rotary-cut, which is pretty horrid looking), but nothing compares to "the real thing." Bet that was a pretty heavy piece to carry around, huh?

You can do really nice work with oak plywood. The equipment rack/speaker stands I just replaced were constructed with 1.5" sq pine, 1/4" red oak plywood, and a red oak top. I made 2 of them. They are 31" high and hold a DefTech Powermonitor 700 in the slot. (cat/dog proofing) I attached a picture.

Those stands were my first big doweling and dadoing project. All the 1/4" plywood is glued into the dadoed slots in the pine structure to make the shelfs and walls. The top cap is 3 pieces of 3/4" red oak. The stands are incredibly strong and very light.

I attached a pic. They are nearly 3 years old and starting to look a tad worn in the pine areas from moving equipment on/off. The oak all looks like original.

Since we're supposed to learn from others mistakes.....

After this project I bought a plate joiner. I didn't edge join the top 3 pieces of oak on those stands because the 3 pieces were all dowled to the pine underneath them. I assumed they couldn't move. I was right. The dowles didn't move, but the oak shrank. After a couple years what was two flush butt joints on the oak top cap had become two 1/16" gaps. You can see them in the picture.

And you are right, it is really heavy. It weighs more than the TV.

Originally posted by IronHorse
NMT...
And yeah... a huge 24" belt sander would be nice, but in the real world (not Norm's) we have to live with palm and 4" belt sanders. :)


I checked again, but this thing still isn't under the tree:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?ItemNumber=G7216

:p

Edited: cause I screwed up the link and ruined the joke.

NMT,
Nice looking stand. I glad to hear what you made for the height, because that is exactly what I ended up with too. My current cabinet was built for a 35" Mitsu tube. Talk about heavy cabinet with gear!! It is too high for the new 50" LCD. The wife doesn't think so, but too bad!:D If all goes as planned I will FINALLY get you guys a picture of the new cabinet without stain hopefully tomorrow. As a former photographer and current carpenter, I never take pictures of any of my projects, and my own stuff is never 100% finished! Talk with you all tomorrow.

Pablo

Originally posted by videobruce
Gee! It never looks that way in the ads for furniture or equipment!;)

Just what are you referring to as the "vanity cover"? I'm surprised you didn't have a middle shelf so equipment wasn't sitting on top of equipment. Foe no other reason; heat dissipation, easier access and strength/support.

Here is the stand with the stain drying.

That looks great! I liked the rest of the pics too.

Even though it is structural, the "vanity cover" is the big piece of oak in the back to keep people from seeing the pile of wire behind it.

I really considered an adjustable middle shelf, but I was actually removing a lot of equipment for a change. After dumping my CD changer, VCR, and Satellite, I didn't have that much equipment left.

I didn't want a fixed height shelf because I can't predict the height of replacement components anymore. I was only going to have 16" of interior height. I use rubber isolaters to keep the 2 stacked components spaced well enough to breath.

I agree that those are all very good reasons to consider adding shelving.

Good looking stuff guys. Making me more anxious to do mine. Of course, i need the TV first :)

Great Thread! I'm hoping someone here can help me located this really unique entertainment center.. I stayed at a hotel a few months ago that had a full size dresser as an entertainment center for a 60 inch Samsung.. The unusual part was it had cut outs in the front for the sterero and two speakers.. but yet it looked like a functional dresser (about 5 feet long, 3 feet deep).. It was very cool and a great idea for a different look for an entertainment center.. I didn't get the company name, so I'm trying to see if anyone else has seen something simliar so I can order it or possibly build it?

Sorry, but I can't help you locate it. We all can help you build it!!:D
Lets work on the design. What do you think Iron Horse?

Pablo

I'll try and draw up a concept just to capture what I saw. It was really pretty nice although to some it might be considered too high.

Originally posted by Kid Red
Good looking stuff guys. Making me more anxious to do mine. Of course, i need the TV first :) No you don't.....................;)

OK, as a member of the purely unofficial BYO Design Team, we can make some suggestions.

Originally posted by Pablopsd
Sorry, but I can't help you locate it. We all can help you build it!!:D
Lets work on the design. What do you think Iron Horse?

Pablo

First, if you'd rather buy than build you might want to look online at the High Point NC Furniture links that you can google up. A good deal of your institutional and consumer furniture is still made in High Point, and you might find what you're looking for in a Entertainment Catalog from Thomasville, Hooker, Lane, or a number of other companies.

You didn't quite give us all the gory details, but are you talking about a 60" plasma... maybe on a lift? IOW, push a button and the screen rises up in the rear of the cabinet. Rockler has the mechanism for that. It's around $1400.00 just for the unit and it's own remote. But their systems only handle up to 50" displays.

A box 5 feet long and 3 feet deep sounds way too deep. Maybe you meant 3 feet high? And was the piece contemporary or traditional in design? We get some good details, we can certainly brainstorm a workable design that you can take to a decent cabinet shop and have it built.

I think another possibility for a "custom" cabinet would be to actually go to Home Depot and and look real hard at the Kraft Maid and Thomasville cabinetry books. They aren't usually on display, but if you ask for one, they'r about a quarter inch deep and very thorough. Flip through to the cabinetry for entertainment centers and take a good hard look.

If you want some ideas, we work cheap. And slow. But consider that cheap factor. :)

Without going to a woodworkers forum, what are the pros and cons of:
shellac
varnish
polyurethane
I'm using clear poly. Norm seems to use that all the time. I know the others have merits, but don't remember what.

BTW, after I wipped the stain down I notices the birch took the stain the greatest and the the most pronounced grain, while the maple and pine were not as dark, but equal to one another.

VB....

Picked this off of doityourself.com. I was going to say pretty much the same thing, and add my comments about Deft brushable lacquer, and then I though I'd seen something before.

Lacquer - Clear finish best suited for showing off wood grain.

Positives : Available in a variety of sheens, from flat to high gloss. Easily applied with brush or aerosol. Dries quickly (with a brush, you have to work fast.) Most retail brands require no substrate sealer. Damaged finishes can usually be repaired without stripping.
Negatives : Easily scratched and susceptible to water damage. Lacquer is the finish used on 99% of all commercially manufactured furniture with a clear finish.

Varnish - A clear finish.

Positives : Much more durable than lacquer. Slow drying (allows more time to work). Most minor damage can be repaired without stripping.
Negatives : Slow drying time allows dust motes to settle in finish. Tendency for beginners to 'over-brush' when applying the finish, resulting in brush marks in the dried finish. Although you can handle a varnished piece the next day, varnish hasn't cured completely until about a month later.

Polyurethane - A clear finish.

Positives : More durable than either varnish or lacquer, and easier to apply than varnish.
Negatives : Improperly applied finish usually must be stripped, unlike lacquer or varnish which can many times be "worked on" without stripping. Extremely difficult to repair scratches and chips - repair is not for the amateur. Sometimes difficult to strip.

Shellac - A clear finish rarely used as such today except in restoring period furniture.

Positives: Brilliant shine.
Negatives: Highly susceptible to damage from almost any liquid, including alcohol (mixed drinks will cut right through it), fruit juices (ditto), even water will damage it if left to stand. Shellac is used primarily today as a sealer and under coat. It can be used under lacquer or varnish, as well as some polyurethanes.

Interesting.
I never had to strip anything, so that really isn't a issue. I do have a chair that someone threw out with a coat of ?? that is flacking off would be the exception. I don't think it is worth it to do anything with ti as I HATE to strip wood period.

I see shellac is out.
Never though of lacquer. Why is that susceptible to water when that is used for auto finishes.
A month for varnish to cure?
Could you give an example of improperly applying poly?
"Dust motes"?:rolleyes:

I applied the first coat of poly. I have used a 3m (I believe) product as a sub for sandpaper that looks like the material that furnace filters are made of. What have you used to smooth out the coats?

Did anyone see this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=484959

Really don't know about that.

Well Gang... here's the finished product. It is not 100% of what I wanted with regard to finish, but I did salvage it enough that SWMBO is extremely happy with it. The height is just right for us, and it works great with the wood finish of the room's walnut walls because all you really see (after all is said and done) are the leading edges.

I'll post a pix tomorrow with the TV in place in the right room (in the basement here).

Here's another look at the finished stand with the TV on it. I've included pointer arrows to indicate things like the frameless glass doors, the center channel placement, and the storage drawer.

Underneath, there are eight (8) Shepard casters to aid in moving this monster around on the padded berber carpet. The extra wheels are pretty much hidden by the kick skirt, but I think the weight is better distributed than when I had four casters. There's about 3/4" - 7/8" open space between the carpet and the wood.

I think I'm going to get a nice horizontal stainless or aluminum handle for the drawer although I don't really need it. I can pull on the bottom and it glides out nicely. I used 12" full-extention ball-bearing slides so putting manuals, remotes, and other junk in there is easy.

Once I get around to flanking this setup with shelving units, you won't be able to look behind the cabinet, and just for the record, it's 20" deep, 60" wide, and about 21" high. I also want to get a clean power strip for the components, and when I get the back all arranged, maybe I'll take a picture of that too. I bought a wire channel setup that I want to integrate. Oopps... forgot to mention that I did not mount the pegboard back and have left the back of the cabinet open for the time being. My Yamaha RX is a bit deep, and should I replace it, I'll be looking for something that is around 16" deep rather than 19" with a huge 1" thick volume knob!

It's been a fun project and yep... I'll be here to offer any help I can. BTW, _this_ thread has now been officially added to the "most popular" thread list. Says something for all us creative types :)!

IronHorse,

Outstanding job!!!! You've given me something to aspire to.

Just wanted to wish everyone here a very Healthy and Happy New Year! :) I'm already happy because the Yankees got Randy Johnson! Carlos Beltran is next!!!

Clap Clap Clap Clap. Very nice iron, very nice.

(Yanks are still going to lose :) )

Dido, IronHorse on the Happy New Year.
I planned on using 6 of the Sheppard ball casters. Do you really think 8 were needed? I also have Berber carpet which is nice since it is not a deep plush.

As a word of advice, DON'T skimp and try to use those 'cheap' dual plastic wheel Chinese casters. It's not worth it. The plastic wheeled will separate from the axle sooner or later.

I still not sure what to do about the 2nd coat of poly. It is marred by 'specks' all over that I don't like at all. If I try to sand them down it will take the gloss off the finish. I purposely delayed the poly so the dust in the room would settle. I don't know if the specks were in the can from prior uses or where they came from. They are about the size of grains of sand.

If I had to do it all over again I would consider the solid plywood sides as IronHorse did since that would make it much easier. But, I would of used 1x1's as corner braces where the shelves meet the sides.

The triangle corner braces that were cut to use, turned out that I didn't need them. I sat and knelled on the top shelf and there was NO racking either front to back or side to side that I was concerned about.

IMO, the best thing to do would be to go for a third coat. Get a fresh can of poly and a new brush. Sand (I recommend wet sanding with wet/dry sandpaper). Wipe (first with a damp cloth, then with dry, if you wet-sanded). After the dust settles, use a new tack cloth to remove the residual dust (is it possible your specks are bits of dust left behind from the previous sanding that globbed together when the poly was applied?). Apply the poly. If possible, find a way to "tent" the piece with a plastic dropcloth to avoid any new dust.

An expensive solution in terms of materials, but the best, if you want a (relatively) flawless finish.

Happy New Year, all.

What do you think about using a foam brush?

Bruce...

I used a Purdy _Non-Oil_ brush called an ELITE 2½". I would not use a foam brush as they supposedly create more bubbles than a high-quality real brush. Also, don't use foam with shellac if you go that route.

After I applied the shellac, I _lightly_ sanded with 220, then wiped it down with a tack cloth. Next I applied the 1st coat of water based urethane. It actually looked decent at that point. The next day, I sanded again, using 300 paper and I should note that I used a solid felt sanding block rather than a rubber or wood block. Gave it the third coat after tack-ragging it again and the finish looked pretty darn good. My finish coat is Miniwax Satin Finish water-based urethane. It is somewhere in-between a semi-gloss and a rubbed effect. Fine for the stand.

As I said in an earlier post, we might fuss too much over the finish, but in truth, a good deal of the wood is now out of sight, and when I get done, all you'll see is the leading edges and skirt.

BTW, I ordered a Belkin 1100VA UPS with AVR that I will mount in the wiring pocket I built in the back of my stand as soon as it arrives. This is supposed to be a combination surge, battery backup, and clean power filter for the current coming in. It doesn't have provisions for cable, but that's OK. Once I get this mounted I'll rig up the cable chute to clean up the wiring in the back.

Bruce... One last thought, and I might even try this on a sample piece of wood. Get a can of wipe on poly and see if you can improve the finish look after sanding. I bought a can but haven't tried it yet.

Hey all,
Sorry I've been away for a week. Baby has been a little sick as has the Momma. I did get the bottom built but there was no way it was going to be finished for Christmas Eve, so it is just sitting there in the garage. Had to spend this week building some quick cabinets for a customer. Iron Horse, it looks good. You never did reply to me as far as finishing mine!! LOL Bruce, if you look back at the early posts, we had a discussion on finishes and brushes etc. Don't use a foam brush with waterbased poly. It will cause bubbles. I know from past trials when it first came out. Get a good quality brush for the finish. Sounds like you got some dust in the finish. I use a finishing pad between coats. Looks like a cleaning pad for dishes. They work well. The tack cloth helps a lot too. As does finishing in a different place from where you built it. You could also run an air filter. I actually bought one at HD years ago that we use on the job. We do a ton of remodeling, usually involving demolition in some really nice houses, and bring the filter along to keep the dust down. Spent about $100 I think. And it was portable.
I also took a look at your link RE the center channel. I was thinking of doing something temporary on top of the TV since I will someday have a full cabinet around the TV with provisions for the speaker on top. But I am a carpenter, and that means I will probably build a new unit for a new TV before the top is finished!
Iron Horse, did you use tempered glass? I had some problems with one that I did years back with the glass breaking at the hinges.

Check this out,
I was pulling the little bit if hair that I have out of my head while building my cabinet. My panels, sides etc were not coming out square and It was driving me nuts. Framing squares said they were good, sides measured parallel, but corner to corner was off. Wasn't always consistent, and figured my table saw might be off a little, but rips were coming out parallel. I finally told myself to grab another framing square from the shed, and sure enough the FRAMING SQUARE WAS OUT OF SQUARE. In all my years of work, I have never ever seen a framing square go off. Neither has my partner. I threw it right in the dumpster. It was a thick square too. They just don't go out of wack like that. Problem is my base was already done. We were working on the customers project. I had to do some rigging to straighten mine out. Only I know where to look. A good carpenter can fix his mistakes!!:p

Pablo

Re foam brushes & water-based poly: Yes, there are bubbles in the liquid coat when you use a foam brush with water-based poly, but in my experience those bubbles disappear and the finish is fine, EXCEPT when you try to re-brush a surface after it's already begun to get tacky (which happens pretty quick, with w/b poly!)

Re a framing square out of square: Says something about manufacturing practices today, doesn't it? I had the same problem with a framing square and was about to throw it out when my dad (a retired Mech E) spotted a tiny burr in the inside corner of the square. Some quick work with a sharp file rescued the square from the trash. If you have a good table saw whose entire table is a machined casting (rather than stamped sheet metal), a corner of the table is likely to be the most precise 90 degree angle you'll find in your shop -- great for checking squares, etc. Again, a tip from my MechE dad! (By the way, when I say my dad "spotted" the burr, I mean he went over the square with a fine-toothed comb for a good 5 or 10 minutes, checking everything he could think to check every which way he could think to check it. Few of us devote this much attention to our tools! I mean, how complex is a square?? But then, he'd spent a good part of his career figuring out why manufacturing processes yielded parts slightly out of tolerance and difficult for production workers to assemble)

Originally posted by videobruce
What do you think about using a foam brush?

I've noticed two things that can make foam brushes leave air bubbles behind:

Cheap foam: Not all foam brushes are alike. The cheapest of them use a foam which has much larger air pockets than the better quality ones. The denser foam releases the urethane more slowly, which seems to help prevent...

Leaning on the brush: Just like with regular brushes, people try to stretch the urethane too far. You're better off going back to the can more often and keeping the tip wet. If you lean on the foam brush, it will pour out air bubbles.

I'm not a fan of water based urethane, so you're on your own there:)

I never used a water bases poly or intend too. The obly water based anything I use is paint.
I looked at the 'specs' again and it could be air bubbles. I know it isn't airborne dust as it did it two days after I stained and wiped down the piece.

Here are macros of the issue;

Here is another shot. This is the WORST example. The whole surface ISN'T this bad! Seems to be a combination of raised grain, air pockets and MAYTBE dirt.
These were taken around 6-8" from the surface with no flash using the overhead lights for reflection. I cropped them down as far as I could and slightly reduced them to fit the requirements to post here.

Paul...

Glad to see you still have a sense of humor... will I finish your cabinet... sure... poof! It's finished. :)

As far as the glass goes, what I did was took the glass guy's advice... I used factory laminated sheet safety glass. The difference was $30 for two doors or $108 for two tempered doors. Both are ¼" thick and the laminated glass fits the hinges fine. You have to use the little pressure plate with e hinge set screws to distribute the clamping force. The guy even sanded the edges and broke the corners with a tight radius. Then he put a glass oil on the edges (standard practice). I think they call it a pencil finish.

That dust collector for $100 sounds like a smart investment for me. I'll look around at HD next time I go. I got a $100 gift card for Christmas from my son and I'm itching to buy something. :)
Bruce...

Man that looks like moon craters. :( On my last coat, after I used the #300 paper, I also used an ultrafine fiber pad like Pablo mentioned. You can also use #0000 steel wool, but then you have to blow off the particles, vacumn, and then use a tack cloth. You should _NOT_ have a finish like that if you are just reasonably careful. Of course, I don't know how powerful that macro shot was... it might be 300X!!! Don't give up.

It was at a distance of 6" the clostest I could get. It just shows the issue better. It's not really magified, one would see that if they were looking at it that close with ones eye.

Hi guys,
New to this thread and to woodworking but plan on building my EC sometime this year.
One suggestion on your raised grain, is has been told to me from a couple of finishing experts that when you plan on using a water based finish, to raise the grain first by wiping down with a wet rag and then sand it back down and you will minimize this problem.
HTH
GeoffQ

NO water based finishes used...........

sorry my bad

Paul...

Just wondered if you bought one of those Delta triangular deals with a built in light or the floor model with the two bags? There seems to be a number of variants of the dual-bag setup on eBay. I also seem to recall reading about combining a large plastic garbage barrel and running an intake and exhaust port thru the cover so dust and chips go into the barrel, but I forgot where I saw that.

Originally posted by Pablopsd
Hey all,
You could also run an air filter. I actually bought one at HD years ago that we use on the job. We do a ton of remodeling, usually involving demolition in some really nice houses, and bring the filter along to keep the dust down. Spent about $100 I think. And it was portable.

I'm attaching a composite picture of a few different dust collection options that could be used by the DIY'er and just about any of these units would help reduce dust and make finishing a cabinet a little bit easier. Even the little Shop-Vac unit will completely filter the air in a 290 square foot room every 10 minutes. The Delta AP400 is reasonably priced and it would interesting to find out if this unit would also filter dust in the air as opposed to only collecting sawdust.

Originally posted by videobruce
I never used a water bases poly or intend too. The obly water based anything I use is paint.
I looked at the 'specs' again and it could be air bubbles. I know it isn't airborne dust as it did it two days after I stained and wiped down the piece.

Here are macros of the issue;

It is really hard to tell from here, but I think I see a few things.

The larger dark bubbles look to be from stain in the grain trying to escape. I've had this problem with hardwoods. You have to be certain you get all the stain off. I use white terry cloth towels to wipe the stain until the towels come up clean. It can help to let the stain age a while before urethaning.

There may be some regular air bubbles.

Some plain old dust is evident. I don't have a "clean room", or air filtration, so I go the simple route. After going over every inch with a tack cloth, I leave the piece to be urethaned alone for several hours in my garage. It is important to let all the dust settle out of the air. Don't open doors, HVAC vents, run fans, etc. Do one last pass with a fresh tack cloth before urethaning.

I can't guess about the raised grain.

Iron Horse.
The air filter I bought was a Rigid one, not the Delta one. When I bought it, it was the only game in town. We use it a lot on the jobs. It is really just a fan on one end with a pre filter and another filter inside. I do like the Delta one for a permanent or hanging install.

Bruce, it is crud in the finish. Be it something that settled on it after or possibly something in the can. Was it brand new? How warm was it when you applied it? What exactly was it that you used? I don't have a dedicated room to finish anything. I usually just bring whatever it is inside from the shop after I build it, and finish it in the house. I have used so many different finishes from water-based to hand rubbed tung oils, and never had anything happen like that. I usually vacuum and wipe down the project and have been fine. I think you should be able to sand out the imperfections and apply another coat.

As far as stain coming up from the grain. How long did you wait between stain and finish? The stain should be dry and shouldn't be an issue.
Raised grain would be consistent along the whole grain pattern. You shouldn't have an issue with hardwoods. It would be more prevalent with softwoods, such as pine etc.:(

Bruce...

We're all probably spinning your head with suggestions, but if I can, allow me to make one more. :rolleyes:

Get a sample piece of representative wood, say a piece of 3/4 solid or plywood, maybe 5" X 20" (rough dimensions). Give it a quick sanding, then apply your stain like you did before. Wait 24 hours, and then give the un-waxed shellac (Bullseye Clear) a try. Dillute the shellac in a plastic cup 50/50 with denatured alcohol. You can proabably give it a very light sanding (220#) a few hours later, and then apply a 2nd coat. Use a fine (gray or white) fiber pad on that coat after it has dried.

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?DeptID=2067&FamilyID=256

Then take another crack at the poly, but before you apply, get yourself a conical varnish/paint filter and pour some of your poly through the filter into a cup. That way you are 100% positive there's no crystalizing that might've been in the can going on the wood. Let that first coat dry overnight, and then lightly hit the surface with 300# paper before tacking it and then applying the 2nd coat of poly. Once that's thoroughly dried, you could use the pad once again (no paper this time) to sort of burnish the finish before applying the poly. If you're doing the finishing in a garage that is somewhat warm, you could put some water on the floor to keep the concrete damp so dust won't fly as you walk around the piece.

I went with water based satin finish because everyone I talked to said it really lies down nicely if you do the prep, and it dries very quick too. It came out pretty nice. Not Henredon or Stickley nice, but relatively flat and _almost_ rubbed. Considering I was going to pain the darn thing black 2 weeks ago, I'm fairly pleased.

Hope this helps. :(

Kenlex
As far as a bur is concerned on the square.. It was out of square 1/8 over the 24" section. NOT a bur! It was a tweak, or manufactured that way. On the job we are using speedsquares all the time except for stair stringers, so I didn't really see it earlier. When we started to think back about it, we had a couple of times on the job that things seemed off, and just figured the help wasn't careful or something. Not major issues, but just enough for us anal builders to notice!
I was able to make do, and deal with the issues.

Pablo,

Having a framing square go bad is not an uncommon occurance, particularly with an L-shaped "rafter" square (which I assume you are describing. All it takes is one good drop, or even improper storage to knock one out of true. This goes double if you're using one of the $7.00 Home Despot specials.

Fortunately, you don't have to have a good square edge to check a square. All you need is a straight reference line. Align one edge of the square with a line on a flat surface, and use it to draw a line perpendicular to the first one. Then, flip the square over and check the line you just drew. If the square still lines up with it, it's dead on. If not, replace or attempt to "adjust" it.

Aluminum squares that are not too far off (probably within 1/8" in 24, maybe less) can be fixed. All you need is a hard surface (an anvil is good) and a ball-peen hammer or large punch. By striking the crotch or outside corner of the square (on the flat face) you can slightly expand the metal, thereby changing the angle of the square.

Now, to get this back on topic, I've been fascinated by this thread. As a sawdust maker myself, I find any discussion of techniques or design fascinating. As soon as I complete my current project (a window bench/bookcase combination that is going to hit the finishing stage this week) I'll begin design on an entertainment center. It's going to be a real challenge in that I have a large TV on a small wall, but I can't wait to jump in to it.

Dan

One interesting point; the 'pine' edge 'L' molding on top had very little 'specs'! Just the maple and birch pieces.The larger dark bubbles look to be from stain in the grain trying to escape.Interesting. I did wipe the piece down. I'm sure I didn't get ALL the extra stain off. I might of put it on a little heavy since I wanted a darker wood than the stain seemed to be. I have a tendency of 'laying it down' when I paint. I really hate a second coat! There weren't any 'specs' before I poly'ed the first time. get yourself a conical varnish/paint filter and pour some of your poly through the filter Another thing I probably should of done............:mad:

I did wait a day or longer before I stained and after I sanded/wiped the surface with a towel.
I did wait a day after I rubbed the excess stain off.
I did wait a day between poly coats.
The temp. of the room was around 50F. Low humidity. It is a separate room, but not totally sealed from the rest of the basement, but no traffic in the basement (no kids.
The poly was 2 years old I believe from a bathroom project (new window, wood door frame and medicine cabinet). (I know what you are going to say about that one........:mad: )

I hate to ask this, but just what exactly is a 'tack cloth'? I hear it all the time and I took is as just a clean rag.

A tack cloth is basically a piece of cheesecloth that has been impregnated with some sort of "sticky stuff." I think it's a wax. In any case, it picks up the dust and dirt that a clean rag will just push around.

They are cheap and can be had at most any hardware store w/ a paint department.

Dan

Tack as in tacky? I suppose when they get dirty you toss them?

Bruce,

I assume you sanded and wiped down between the coats of poly (you didn't say, in your most recent message)? I always wet-sand between coats, then wipe with a damp rag and let dry. Check the recommended recoat times on your poly. Sometimes you see directions like, "recoat within X hours or after Y hours."

Tack cloth -- an indispensable product, especially for high-quality finishing projects. It's generally a piece of cheesecloth that's been impregnated with resins so that it's ever-so-slightly sticky and will pick up whatever dust is left on a surface. You'd be amazed at how much a tack cloth will pick up, even after you think a surface has been wiped. Buy it in the painting supplies dept. Comes in a sealed plastic bag. It will dry out and become stiff and useless if you don't store it properly after opening it (save it in a zip-lock bag between coats, throw it away when the project is done. Re-fold it to expose a new unused face of the cloth for each coat)

You're going to go out and buy a tack cloth, new brush, and new can of poly for the final coat, right? Make sure the poly is kept at room temperature (not in a cold garage or something). 50F seems like the low end of temperatures recommended for using poly (check the label). Can you warm that part of the basement with an electric heater (and hold it long enough to allow the workpiece to get up to, say, 60F and remain there while the finish dries)? I remember having a devil of a time applying poly in a cool basement some years ago. Had to keep the can upstairs between coats, to keep it warm enough.

Best of luck with the (hopefully) final coat!

Originally posted by videobruce
Tack as in tacky? I suppose when they get dirty you toss them?

Correct.

The can I have now is new and unused. No on the electric heater. You DON'T want to use a foam brush for poly correct?

Bruce,

If you can't heat the basement a bit, then keep the poly upstairs 'til you're ready to apply it. I have always used a high-quality nylon (not polyester) brush with regular poly, and a foam brush with water-based poly. By the way, I've sometimes had bad things happen when I've used a brush (with solvent-based poly) that had previously been used with latex paint. Best is to use a new brush, and add it to your collection afterwards.

I've sometimes had bad things happen when I've used a brush (with solvent-based poly) that had previously been used with latex paint. You aren't going to tell me the poly disolved the particles of latex paint from the brush onto the surface of the wood are you?:mad:
Something stupid like that didn't happen???:mad: :mad:
Other than the easy clean up, why have you used water based poly?

Bruce...

One rule of finishing is never :mad:, never :mad:, never :mad:... and I repeat once more, NEVER :mad: use a brush that might've been used for opaque paint for a clear, natural finish... regardless of how many times you've cleaned it or examined it and found it looking clean. Way up inside the core of the brush you'd be surprised what you might find if you put a microscope on it, and yes... some finishes will act as a partial solvent for another finish and possibly release the buggers into the new finish. Tell us you used a virgin brush... puuulllleeeeeze?

Do yourself one big favor ;) and go to HD or wherever and pick up a brand-new brush that is designed for the product you intend to use. If you are using oil-based urethane, you would probably be better off with a natural bristle brush. White bristled natural brushes are recommended for varnishes and clear finishes. If you are using water-based urethane, then a high-quality synthetic bristle would be better. I like Purdy brushes because you can find them everywhere. A decent brush should cost about $15.00+. Use a permanent marker and write "CLEAR ONLY" on the handle, and save the cardboard sleeve for storing the brush after you've cleaned it.

The benefits of water-based urethane are mainly the fact that it cleans up with simple water and a drop of amonia, it drys to the touch in a hour or two, it can be sanded/recoated in maybe 6 hours (but the longer it cures, the better), and it tends to "lay flat" on the wood, thereby giving you a flatter, smoother finish with less work. It's also applied somewhat thinner in consistency out of the can than oil based stuff. I think it's a little bit more expensive too.

Bruce,

What Iron Horse said.

'Cept I think one can also use a nylon (NOT nylon/polyester "all purpose") brush.

But -- OMIGOD -- you didn't -- DID YOU? -- use a brush previously used with (ugh, shudder) PAINT???

With regard to to solvent-based vs. water-based poly... solvent-based poly will tend to darken over time; water-based will remain colorless. Thus, water-based is especially good for light finishes (natural maple, for example). A trade-off for the fact it goes on easy, in a thin coat, is that you have to give it more coats -- at least 3, possibly 4, rather than the 2 you might do with regular poly.

Remember, compared to the money you've spent on the fine wood, and with the value of the time you've spent: a new brush and a new can of finish is cheap insurance.

(I'm rarely as good as I should be about cleaning my brushes. If you can care for them as Iron Horse suggests, you're fine. But I always buy a new one before I finish a fine woodworking project; I save the previously-used brushes for varnishing the woodwork in the house, or some less critically demanding application.)

The brush I used was fairly new. The use before the poly was stain for this piece. Before that, I think I used that for ploy (semi gloss) for the window seat. Before that was probably paint. I didn't have any real problems with the window seat poly coats though! Since it was only the tip I was using and I always rub and fan the tip of the bristles with my hand to soften them before I use the brush, I didn't think the brush being used would be a problem.
I do have new unused brushes and a new can of solvent based poly. Most of my brushes are nylon.

Would not surprise me if it had stain in the brush from the earlier application which got in the poly. I know you waited 2 days, but up in the guts of the brush, there still may have been some fresh stain. I would think you could still sand out what is there and go for it again. Good thing you have open sides. It would be even harder with closed sides and shelves.

Paul

Originally posted by videobruce
Most of my brushes are nylon.

If it helps comfort anyone worried about using foam brushes and polyurethane, I attached a close up of the inside of one of the speaker "cups" I mentioned earlier this thread. Since this is the inside that is covered by a speaker, I didn't really go out of my way in finishing it. (There's even a little pooling at the joint)

The best part is after using a foam brush, you have 2 choices. Throw it away, or wrap (lightly) in plastic wrap and freeze for the next coat. The brush won't really freeze, but it won't cure either. I warm it back up in the urethane can.

I use a new brush for the final coat.

There are a couple pieces of dust in the picture, but they aren't in the urethane.

(Edited because I was told I should point out the reflection of the grain in the surface)

I also have "pooling" (didn't know what it was called) around the posts wher they meet the lower shelve.
Just what foam brush did you use? Is there a generic name for it other than 'foam'?

That's a wild idea 'freezing' a foam brush. Where did you find out about that?:rolleyes:

Originally posted by videobruce
I aslo have "pooling" (didn't know what it was called) around the posts wher they meet the lower shelve.
Just what foam brush did you use? Is there a generic name for it other than 'foam'?

That's a wild idea 'freezing' a foam brush. Where did you find out about that?:rolleyes:

Homedepot and Sherwin-Williams both sell good quality foam brushes around here.

My mother was into furniture refinishing. She gets the credit for the freezing the brush trick.

What do you guys think of these designs?

Larger sizes...

Wall unit...

I see you saw that other thread.................;)
The top drawing of the first image sure seems familiar in this thread doesn't it IronHorse?
I see those 'Purdy' brushes aren't cheap, but not that much more than the other better brushes that are made in China from HD!

Great thread.

If I weren't such a complete klutz at woodworking, I'll draw on these ideas.

Let me chime in on a couple of related matters:

First

* Center Channel Speaker

If you are concerned about retaining the fidelity of your center speaker but want to put it into your cabinet, then some guidelines to follow are:

1) Do not place it into a cabinet shelf where it is a tight fit, especially if the speaker has a port (hole) on the back of the cabinet. That port produces the lower bass of the speaker and has been designed & sized to allow free motion of air through it, which affects the bass driver of the speaker. It would be best if the back of the cabinet were open, or had a large hole.

2) If your final design has the speaker placed above or below your ear level, then you should angle the speaker to fire directly at your ears. Not doing so will cause a roll-off on high frequencies.

3) It will be best if the front of the speaker overhangs the cabinet by an inch or so. This will reduce edge defraction.

4) It is best to line the drivers in the center with the drivers in your sides. If you can't then most receivers have a speaker distance setting, which can compensate. Make sure after you are done that you reset the settings.

If someone has a relatively inexpensive speaker, then these things are not so critical. But if you put some time into gettting a good speaker and then put it into a tight enclosed cabinet, you are limiting its performance capabilities.

Rules of thumb:
A) Make sure your speaker can breathe.
B) Make sure it is angled at your ears.
C) Make sure your receiver or pre/pro has correct speaker distance settings.
D) If possible, have the speaker overhang the front of the cabinet.

Second topic:

* Ventilation of components

A lot of people love to have glass doors on the front of their cabinets. This is fine as long as you either A) have low-heating producing electronics within them, or B) substantial ventilation out of the back of the cabinet.

Electronics are always designed to allow for sufficent heat dissapation. They are spec'ed for running in specific air temperatures. If the air they are "breathing" is warmer than their design specs, the parts & chips will be subjected "hazardous" (from their perspective) operating conditions. This might not cause immediately failure, or a problem in 6 months or 12 months or 24 months. However it will age every chip & part in the unit and eventually a few of them will fail well before their spec'ed Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF).

Electronics like VCR and DVD players don't draw that much power and thus don't generate a lot of heat. They can usually do fine inside of a glass door cabinet. A non-DVF/hard drive satellite receiver might do okay, although they do generate more heat. Likewise for a standalone HDTV receiver (some of these will definitely overheat in an enclosed cabinet).

What you don't want in a closed cabinet is a receiver or anything with a hard drive. Both of these employ heat sinks and fans to cool their components. The heat sinks and fans are sized to draw in air within a specific temperature range. They do not have much, if any, excess capacity as that adds cost, weight, and noise (for the fans) and customers don't want that.

You could place a small thermometer on each shelf to measure the air temp. You definitely don't want it above 95 F in there and that isn't a safe number for the long-term. If it is too hot, then you should open holes in the of the cabinet and/or install a fan to pull air through.

If the temp in there is in the 90s then that is the temp of the "cooling" air being pulled into the unit. A component can't cool to designed operating temps if the cooling air is that warm.

Originally posted by videobruce
The top drawing of the first image sure seems familiar in this thread doesn't it IronHorse? Come on now VB, I didn't steal the guy's idea or anything. There's nothing to steal. Besides, I like the CC above the drawer. :)

That's right... there's nothing to steal because this thread is supposed to be a living, breathing composite of our designs... that fit our needs. Everyone should be honored to have someone like their design enough to borrow some/all of it for their design.

That being said, there's an old saying in the toy business that goes something like this; There's no such thing as a new toy, just a new design for an old toy.

From scooters to skateboards, from tin soldiers to action figures, old toys can get re-designed into new toys. And with TV Stands, the triple-bay is as old as the hills. And that goes for our home made ones as well as a triple salamander.

So Buck, build your stand, and design it so you like it, and if you need any cyber-help, we're all here for you :) !

Thanks IH, but I'm not building anything. I drew up those designs for the furniture manufacturer I sell for hoping they will expand into entertainment. I think these stands would sell very well. My drawings don't show any styles, just function. That's what's lacking on the market today.

I never used the word "steal"!

Originally posted by videobruce
I never used the word "steal"! OK VB, no worries.

If you guys remember, I built my center section with a false back for two reasons; one reason was to put in a full stiffening bulkhead, cleated around the entire perimeter. That was to prevent racking and it works fine. The second reason was to create a sort of "shelf" space for wiring and possibly a UPS.

I ordered a UPS last week from Belkin (VA1100) and installed it last weekend just before the snow and freezing rain storm we had over the weekend. Saturday during the Jets game we had three (3) short power outages lasting maybe 30 seconds to a minute each. It was really cool to watch this thing work as advertised. All the lights and the AV receiver goes out... but the TV doesn't even hiccup. The picture doesn't darken or anything just continues. And the UPS puts out a loud beep every 10 seconds or so to let you know that its running on battery backup.

This particular unit is tall and thin by UPS standards, and it has two (2) surge protected battery backup outlets and four (4) additional surge protected outlets. It has the normal USB/Serial interfaces also, and it is a "clean power" device as well, filtering the voltage before it hits the TV.

So just a word to all of you who are building a case, you might want to think about protecting your TV, and if you can build it into the design, all the better.

Cool beans iron Horse! I did a similar thing for mine, don'e know where I got the idea from, but it is only for my surge protector. I don't plan on using a UPS back there. Maybe someday.
I guess if I were a J-E-T-S Jets fan, I would need one, since the season could be over at any minute, like at Pittsburg. Still waiting for you to tell me whenI can bring my stand for you to finish! LOL

Pablo

Paul...

Can I mail you an aerosol can of clear lacquer? LOL :D

After finishing this project, I've decided that once I get through my interior painting projects, I'm going to clean out my shop and get a little more serious about organization and other things. A dust collection system is on my agenda, probably an air filter too. And I've always wanted a band saw.

While my Sears contractor saw has served me (and my father) well since 1970... :) I'm always on the lookout for a bargain cabinet saw... though the new hybrids from DeWalt, Jet, and Craftsman look pretty nice too. The Sears unit is only around $600, but I've missed out on good, older Unisaws for that price too. :mad:

And BTW, I expect everyone here to be pulling for the J-E-T-S JETS! JETS! JETS! tomorrow! :D

Iron Horse,
Sounds like you are working in my shop! I have a very old Delta saw that ws my Dad's in the shop at my mother's. Now that my garage is built, I am using the Makita saw that we use on the job. It is a workhorse. It is not a unisaw however. The old Delta served us well, but it has seen better days.
Guess what. We just finished hooking up the zone of heat in the basement a little while ago. Now I can bring in the new stand from the garage, and finish it in a heated environment. Can't wait. Well, maybe till after tomorrow to see who the Pats will play next week.
:p

Pablo

Paul...

My tablesaw is a Craftsman 10" circa 1968, model 113. Cast iron table, belt drive, lockable metal casters with spot legs. Its a pretty decent saw, but for some strange reason my father always liked his Delta tilt table better (go figure). I think these old craftsmans were made by Emerson, and they are sturdy, dependable machines. The addition of a good fence system would probably make it all I'll ever need.

My miter saw is a Makita 8½" SCMS... a beautiful piece of equipment I bought new a couple of years ago. My Jointer is a 4" Delta circa 1950, and I have a Delta ½" drill press built around then also. I have a Porter-Cable router/electric plane kit, a new PC circular saw and palm sander. I also have several drills... the big boy is the Milwaukee 18v ½" hammer-drill, but my everyday drill is a junky but reliable Ryobi 14v 3/8". I also have a hand-me-down Craftsman 3" belt sander, a 12" disc sander, and my favorite new toy has been my Stanley ½" - 1¼" nailer and 6 gallon compressor.

I've found that old doesn't necessarily mean bad or good, just that you have to keep maintenance up.

Well, I had agida saturday night after watching the Jets-Steelers game. Not that I think the Jets could've beaten the Pats, but they should've beat the Steelers. It think it'll be a Pats-Falcons Super Bowl and the Pats will win it.

All the mid line table saws ($500 - $800) are imported now.:mad: Possiblr the cabinet models are still made here (over $1500).
Delta is made in China and Rigid is made in Taiwan. I believe Sears (Craftsman) is using someone other than Rigid now since all their stuff (I had another name, but chose not to use it) is Chinese!
Other than where they are made notice how the fences have improved! What was a step up or optional fence is now standard.

Real sorry state of affairs. Notice how the prices stayed the same from when they were made here to now!

IH
I also have a 4" Delta joiner. It must be at least from the early 60's. Doesn't stay set very well anymore. I will probably replace it soon. As I said before, now that I have the garage, it is much easier to work. I have about double the space I had at Mom's. My Dad''s old tools have been around as long as I can remember. I was born in '68. Here I use my Makita 8" table saw with the Rouseau table set up. They don't make this saw anymore. ONly a 10" now. This saw is such a workhorse. It is used daily on the jobs, for the last 9 years. It even went flying out of my truck in an accident when it was a week old, and it still work. The Rouseau Table is awesome. It gets rid of the jucnk fence and give a really nice fence with a rip capacity of about 28" on a portable saw, with an outfeed table. I also have the 10' Makita slide compound miter, with a wide assortment of Porter Cable tools, sanders, nailguns, drills, staplers, etc. Gotta love the Ryobi drills. Very comfortable and strong for the $$. I use a 2 1/2 horse Ryobi router in my router table for raised panel work.
To be honest, I felt bed for the Jets choking this weekend, or should I say their kicker. All that work to have him miss 2 kicks. Do you want to borrow Adam next year in the playoffs?

Pablo

Thought I would post some pics of the Mits 725 tv stand. It has gone through some "as you go" design changes, e.g., decided against the 36" center channel bay. It is made of Honduras mahogany plywood for the top, bottom and vertical panels with mahogany solids for the moulding. Have to do the solid mah. doors this weekend, shelves and dye staining.

Pine2; welcome to the forum. Looks good so far. Would you give us a closeup of the edge detail? You say that is molding or did you use a router?
Are you going to have shelves between the partitions?

Originally posted by videobruce
Pine2; welcome to the forum. Looks good so far. Would you give us a closeup of the edge detail? You say that is molding or did you use a router?
Are you going to have shelves between the partitions?

It's all plywood so the edges are solid moulding and veneer for the flat edges. Pic attached. There will be shelves between the partitions. If you look close I think the holes are visible. The partitions attach with biscuits.

By the way, how do you attach multiple photos to one message?

IH- that's a nice APC. I like that one. Mine is the same kinda design just more boxy.

Question- anyone know what height a stand should be for the JVC 52"? I've seen a few stands 24" high and that just seems too high to me. I'm trying to come up with a design and dimensions.

Originally posted by Kid Red
Question- anyone know what height a stand should be for the JVC 52"? I've seen a few stands 24" high and that just seems too high to me. I'm trying to come up with a design and dimensions.

Generally, you want the center of the screen at eye level, so the answer will depend not only on the screen size, but on the design of the TV... what's below the screen?

I built furniture around my Samsung 43" DLP, which has the speakers beneath the screen, and found that 24" was just right.

It takes a little getting used to. I think many of us are used to older TV configurations with low stands. But movie theater's aren't like that! And you're building your home theater, aren't you?!

I have a current 36" CRT tube and it's base is only 19" high. So, not only would I be going to a bigger 52" set, but raising it 5" more inches? That just sounds too high to me. But if that's the standard, then that's what i will do. That's why i asked if anyone has the JVC and what height they chose. I can check out JVC's site for the height of their official stand i suppose.

By the way, how do you attach multiple photos to one message? You don't, or at least not by using the 'attach file' below the reply box.
If you 'host' your own pics you can I believe.

Well, the JVC stand they sell for their set is 56-1/4"W x 16"H x 19-3/4"D. So only 16" high. Ouch, doesn't leave a lot of room for tall component shelves.

Originally posted by Kid Red
Well, the JVC stand they sell for their set is 56-1/4"W x 16"H x 19-3/4"D. So only 16" high.

I think the stands TV mfrs sell are designed to appeal to furniture buyers (read: spouse) rather than meet the viewing needs of the home theater enthusiast.

I was about to build my stand for my Samsung based on the height of Samsung's stand, but a friend talked me into doing the eye-level thing instead (putting the CENTER of the screen at eye level). I'm glad he did.

If you're just building a stand that'll be naked against a wall, it may look tall. On the other hand, as part of a wall system, the added height won't be glaringly obvious.

Hmmm. Time for me to take some photos of my setup and post here.

kenlex- yea post your pics. Good advice. I guess I can guesstimate where the middle of the screen is, then find out how high that is from the base and go from there.

Well....after many weeks of start/stop effort I've almost finished the cabinet. Just have a few minor items remaining (cord management and painting) before I can relax and contemplate the next project.

I sincerely appreciate all of the assistance provided by this forum throughout the design and construction process (especially since I haven't built anything of substance since the 8th grade) and look forward to seeing how everybody else succeeds in their BYO stand endeavors.

Cheers
Kevin

island- nicely done man, great stuff. Thanks for the pics.

Nice!

My wife and I have been scouring the internet and local shops looking for an Entertainment Center for our new DLP set. We havent been able to find one that meets our requirements and living room decor.

I caught this thread and was inspired. Is this something that, given time and patience, I could tackle myself?

Originally posted by tinomen
My wife and I have been scouring the internet and local shops looking for an Entertainment Center for our new DLP set ... Is this something that, given time and patience, I could tackle myself?

tinomen,

You'll have to introduce yourself and tell us a little about your woodworking skills and experience, and the tools you have available to you!

Well, I am a novice at best. I have actable saw, router, chisels, and clamps. I have a garage to work in (clean, no cars). My neighbor does alot of carpentry, and he would be willing to let me use / borrow any other tools he has. What other tools would this type of project require or find usefull? I am willing to make an investment.

I have always wanted to do something like this, is this something I can learn to do with a little hands on help?

Originally posted by tinomen
Well, I am a novice at best. I have actable saw, router, chisels, and clamps. I have a garage to work in (clean, no cars). My neighbor does alot of carpentry, and he would be willing to let me use / borrow any other tools he has. What other tools would this type of project require or find usefull? I am willing to make an investment.

I have always wanted to do something like this, is this something I can learn to do with a little hands on help?

Welcome. This is also my first serious wood project and it was a great excuse to acquire more power tools! Yes, I probably spent almost as much on new tools, wood, parts, finishing materials, etc. than what a pre-built wood stand would have costed, but I figure that not only was it extremely enjoyable, but I was able to choose the quality and customize the stand to my needs. The satisfaction level is worth the economics and I have all the equipment to do later projects (already thinking about a mahogany DVD rack made out of leftover stand wood). Anyway, the major tools I used were:

work stands
circular saw
random orbit sander (w/ various grades of paper)
biscuit joiner
gorilla glue or equivalent
levels and squares
full length clamps
router (only used for doors)
*time*

My stand still needs to be stained and the doors screwed on.

Good luck, this forum has a wealth of information, especially the earlier posts by ironhorse and his progeny.

IronHorse; I think islandview is trying to upstage us.........:D
Pine2 & tinomen welcome to the forums.

Pine2 & tinomen; sounds as you have what you need. I did what I showed without a table saw, biscuit joiner or planer. I could of used more clamps at the time though.

I think all of us who have built something will always confess that in our heart of hearts, it isn't quite perfect... and that if we did it over, we'd do somethings differently. But the bottom line is to design your stand, build it, finish it, and use it. :)

I can happily say that since I've finished my stand, we're very happy with the result and my wife keeps complimenting me on how nice it does look. She says I've always been super-critical of my own work and that 99.9% of the people who see the cabinet think it was store bought. HA. Sure.

And of course, in the past couple of weekends, I've ripped out the slider to the Florida room and hung a set of 1-3/8" custom bi-fold French doors. So she's also happy about that being finally done.

Now she tells me that instead of buying bookshelf/curios to flank the TV, I should design and make them, because they'll match better than anything we'd find in the furniture stores. SWMBO has a point, but trying to build three (3) 36"w X 84"h X 18"d units complete with flush doors, shelves, and maybe glass curio doors above... is not trivial considering the size of my little shop. Gonna require a major junk purge first, and then maybe some new tools :)!

Aw, Tim the Toolman... you haven't been forgotten.

Hey all, I'm about to get my JVC, so I need to build my stand first. I came up with a rough idea, will of course have to plan it out more accurately with measurements, etc. I wanted input on it with any possible idea changes or suggestions on how to proceed (best way to assemble it)

Also, on the drawing, I have two areas, doors kinda, that will slide out as drawers that will house dvds & cds. I'm not sure if i want handles on them, and i can't think of any where to put a nook or sorts to grab on to to open them. I know there's that magnet push to pop open thing, tho I'm not sure if that would handle the weight. Also, any tips on installing the drawer tracks, etc? I've never done drawers before.

Looking forward to some feedback.

Kid,

Nice drawings! Looks like a terrific concept. (I can do traditional "mechanical drawings", but I can't do nice sketches like you did)

For the pull-outs, I would suggest using ball-bearing full extension slides of the type you can order from Rockler and other woodworking mail-order houses. (Rockler carries the Accuride line) I don't think kitchen-drawer type slides would suffice.

Also at Rockler, and sometimes at lumber yards that have really in-depth selections of moulding, you can find a moulding which acts as a pull-out. The Rockler catalog calls it "continuous pull." You attach it at the top of your drawer front, and it replaces the top 1 1/2 inches (or so) of the front. See on your sketch that shows the drawers pulled out, on the left one the top edge of the drawer is kind of shown as two horizontal lines? That's where this moulding would go; your drawing kind of gives the idea.

Alternatively, you could mount it vertically, so that it would comprise the left (or right) edge of the drawer front.

kenlex- Thanks, helps being an illustrator :) Mechanical drawings to too tight and technical for me, I'd try to freehand as much as I could rather then use a ruler.

As for the stand, I'd rather be able to buy everything from Home Depot or lowes if possible. Why don't you think the regular draw slides would suffice? The DVDs should be that heavy, and it won't have sides making the actual draw heavy. The two lines that you saw were more like lips, a 1x2 or something to make the 2 levels. I haven't measured everything out, but I should be able to get 2 divisions, maybe 8" high which I think fits the DVDs. I need to find out the exact height to the middle of the JVC screen to know for sure my stand height, but it seems to be around 20" high. Unfortunately, I don't think I'd have room for my center channel in the stand, so may have to go with the very top idea with the four shelves.

My big questions are-what kind of wood? It will be painted I think, not stained. So would MDF be ok? Anyone know what to put on top of paint to protect it? You can't put poly on top of acrylic, so is there a water based type of poly?

Also, how to do those dvd drawers as far as handles. I don't know if I want handles on them, I'd rather go clean with them.

My big questions are-what kind of wood? It will be painted I think, not stained. So would MDF be ok? Shame on you! MDF is crap! Why paint wood and hide the beauty??:mad:
Paint something and you are always painting it........

Red...

Nice sketch. I do that a lot too... Industrial Design background. Just too lazy to scan the sketches :) and make them into GIFs.

If you go 22" high, you might be OK with the CC speaker. What you might want to do is scale it out. Make half-size paper patterns for the fronts of your various components. Then make strips for shelves, top, bottom, and sides. DVD cases are 7½" high and about 5½" wide, so remember that when you build a drawer, you have to make it deep enough to include the bottom. Typically, when I make a drawer, I make a groove in the sides/front/back with my tablesaw, and then I use a piece of coated masonite as the drawer bottom. My carbide blad cuts a groove with just enough clearance for an 1/8th inch masonite. I leave about a ¼"+ from the bottom of the drawer to the start of the groove. And the bottom should not be glued in place... it should be loose inside the four sides of the drawer box. The drawer front is added on later, so keep that in mind when you figure drawer depth. I think HD and Lowes both have ball-bearing full pullout slides (stainless?) down to 12". You'll have to go to Rockler or Woodcraft to get shorter ones.

Go back in this thread and I think I might've posted some other shots of drawer construction. If not, maybe I can do it again.

Kid,

An illustrator, eh? That explains it!

Seriously, though, this is a complicated enough project that you might want to do a layout drawing with dimensions etc., and then perhaps even detail drawings of each piece you'll want to cut. You might also want to play "paper dolls" to figure out how to cut the pieces you need out of the big sheet.

Re MDF... well, I think we have a lot of purists on this board :) I typically work in maple and oak, but I did do a stand for a 25" TV out of MDF a few years back, because I wanted it black. So, in my view, there's no shame in MDF if you really want the painted look. It's more forgiving to work than plywood. However, it is heavier, and the dust more annoying than sawdust.

Probably one of the best tihings to cover the paint is... another coat of paint.

Some years back (probably 20) I used a product called "Varathane Colors in Plastic" which was essentially a pigmented polyurethane. Produced a fabulous result for some cheapo kitchen shelving I was doing. Don't know if it's still on the market.

Yes, there's water-based poly; Minwax makes one. You need more coats than with the usual polyurethane. Don't know how it does on top of acrylic; I've only used it on bare wood and subsequent coats. "Read the label", I guess.

The "continuous pull" isn't applied to the **face** of the drawer front; it becomes **part** of the drawer front, at the top or side. You rout a groove in the edge of your drawer front, and the moulding has a tenon that goes into the groove. You glue it up and it's part of your drawer front. See this description (http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=558&objectgroup_id=132&catid=41&filter=continuous%20pull) . The pdf data sheet on that page shows how you use it.

I guess you could use regular drawer slides; I was thinking it would be more stable to use extension slides in the middle side piece, rather than drawer slides at the bottom of the sides. For that matter, home depot may have the ball-bearing type slides, too; I've never looked.

Originally posted by videobruce
Shame on you! MDF is crap! Why paint wood and hide the beauty??:mad:
Paint something and you are always painting it........

HAHA, sorry man. I don't have any natural woods in the room, and I have to wall cabinets that will flank the stand painted the wall color. So, staining would make it stand out to much. I'm more concerned with the ascetics of the stand, not the finish. I'm contemporary also so I more about the overall looks then the finish. Sorry for the blasphemy :)

Kenlex- Yea, I will end up doing a better schematic, but wanted the finer details worked out first. That is just a 5 minute rough off the top of my head, me brain storming more or less. Like after taking some measurements last night, I won't have enough width the make the drawers wide enough to handle DVDs. So, now I'm more inclined, or limited, to maybe have thinner width doors with a small shelf inside. The drawer is a cool idea, just don't have the width I thought I did. Plus, since my center-channel can't fit, I need to find another area to use to mount my monster power bar surge protector. Or if I get a UPS instead, I'll need a space for that so it doesn't sit on the floor.

Also, if one of your brainiacs had a cool idea or suggestion I'd have to modify. So I want a solid design before I draw it up with more precision.

Kid,

Can you give us the dimensional constraints?

The DVD pull-out is a good idea. Could you do one? How about a pull-out that was the width of a DVD; you pull it out and access the DVD's from the side? That way, you get the full depth of the stand for DVD storage.

PM me with your dimensions and the dimensions of the stuff you'd like to have on the stand (including the c. chan) and I'll noodle it a bit over the weekend.

Originally posted by Kenlex
The DVD pull-out is a good idea. Could you do one?

What I meant was -- could you do ONE instead of TWO?

Kenlex- The kinda specs I'm going with now are 50w x 20h x 19d. I can go maybe 52w and maybe 21h-22h. But I have to have confirmation from the JVC stand about it's center point screen height. As for the drawers, I have them flanking both sides, so it would be in a pair. I have the center shelves 19"-20" wide for components leaving me with 5 1/2" left on the side. That's not wide enough for a DVD with the width of 6". Plus, you'd have the factor in the wood for the drawer and the space for the drawer pulls. So, I don't think i can do it.

Ultimately, I'd love to have my center channel in the stand, but I don't think I can have the stand that high, and room for components would b limited. So after the stand, I'll have to figure out how to wall mount my heavy CC.

Kid,

How about component shelves R and L, flanking a single DVD drawer in the middle?

Components are 19" wide, so you want your shelves to have at least 20" clear inside, to move the components around easily. I made mine 20 1/8, in case I ever wanted to go to rack mount. 20 1/8 is the width you need if you then use commercially-available metal "ears" to create the appropriate rack mount. Not sure I'll ever do that, but the provision is there. Remember to leave enough depth, too, for cables as well as components.

Re the center channel speaker, have you considered building the unit as a "hutch" (I **hate** that term, but what can you do?) with a compartment for the center channel speaker over the TV? It could be flanked by DVD storage...

Kenlex- Not sure if you remember my set up- http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4749607#post4749607

But i just think a hutch would make it too crowded, and fill the smallish room too much. I think mounting the CC on a shelf and maybe have a idealume light under it to wash the wall behind the set. By putting a drawer in the middle, I would lose 2 component shelves, unless you have something else in mind.

Thanks for the pointer to your photo. Yes, I see. I guess I would be inclined to have a shelf bridge all the way between the two book cases, with the TV stand centered underneath.

In terms of the DVD drawer, I was thinking a bay of component shelves on the left, the DVD drawer in the center, and a bay of component shelves on the right. Lots of component space, I'd think. If the DVD drawer were made shallower (front to back) than the rest of the unit, your power strip could use the rear of that space. If each component shelf bay is 20" wide, and your total stand width is 50", and you have the thickness of four 3/4" panels, that leaves you with 7" for the width of the DVD drawer bay, which is just about what you need.

So you think having the dvd drawer in the middle would look better then the components in the middle and doors on the side? I haven't thought of that, I'll make a drawing up to see what it looks like.

Kid,

I think that, aesthetically, DVD drawer - component bay - component bay - DVD drawer would look better, BUT you don't have the width for that! Component bay - DVD drawer - component bay will fit, will be fine aesthetically, your friends will ooh and ahh over what a nice job you did, and only YOU will know that you had wanted to do something different!

haha, good point. Well, I'll draw it up and we can compare.

K, here's quick rough, like this?

Yeah, that's it. I'd make the shelves in the component bays adjustable. Were you planning on a plywood back, or open? If you leave the component bays open in back, you'll want to have a plywood back on the DVD drawer compartment to provide needed rigidity to the whole assembly.

Wasn't sure if open or not. i want air to circulate freely. The DVD draw or shelf would have a back for the power bar. You really think the shelves should be adjustable? My receiver is 8" h and the shelf area would be at least 9" tall. I didn't think there would be any component much taller the that.

I.ve been lurking on this forum for a week or so. I have also been working on my stand. Attached is a picture of my stand at present. It still needs the op to be put on and the drawers to be completed. It is 57 wide, 22 3/4 wide and 23 1/2 tall. There are 3 bays 18 inches wide with two drawers and an opening in the middle. Yes, that is cherry plywood, there are some cherry solids and a solid top. I make grandfather's clocks for a hobby, so I have a complete woodworking shop. I'll post a few more pictures as well.
:)

Picture 2 of my stand

Picture 3 of my stand

Lets try picture 3 again of my stand

Originally posted by Kid Red
You really think the shelves should be adjustable? My receiver is 8" h and the shelf area would be at least 9" tall. I didn't think there would be any component much taller the that.

Well, no. But, you never know what you'll want to have where a few years down the road.

I would be inclined to put in a series of holes for the pin-type shelf supports. You probably don't need more than 3 or 5 holes in a row: One hole located so that the space is divided exactly in half vertically, and then an inch and a half or so above and below that spot, and then perhaps again.

Besides, it would be less work than fixed shelves!

trtinkerer- very nice. Almost the design I and Kenlex are pushing around. Cool to see something close, and how you went about assembling it.

Kenlex- good point. I see how trtinkerer did his, so I will do it that way as well.

I made mine open both in front and in back. What you may not see is that I put a rabbit in the back of my shelf stops so I can add a 1/4 inch piece of plywood if I think it needs a back. Being an electrical engineer I know how heat affects the lifetime of electronics and want to make sure they stay cool. Insert doors are also possible using european hinges.

For the shelves I used a shelf pin drillling guide and bit from Woodcraft, $35 or so. It puts holes in about every 1 1/2 inches.

Hey Red,
I just got around to checking over the forum and saw you mention MDF. MDF will paint great, and is stable as far as movement except if it gets really wet. However, I would not use it for anything structural. If you recall seeing some photos of a job I did way back at the beginning of the forum, we used MDF for the raised panels. It was a painted job. From experience, the MDF won't hold screws well or anything like that. Great for other non structural things, or decorative applications. I used birch plywood with poplar solids for face frames, MDF for the panels and decorative applications on the wainscoting.

Originally posted by Pablopsd
Hey Red,
I just got around to checking over the forum and saw you mention MDF. MDF will paint great, and is stable as far as movement except if it gets really wet. However, I would not use it for anything structural. If you recall seeing some photos of a job I did way back at the beginning of the forum, we used MDF for the raised panels. It was a painted job. From experience, the MDF won't hold screws well or anything like that. Great for other non structural things, or decorative applications. I used birch plywood with poplar solids for face frames, MDF for the panels and decorative applications on the wainscoting.

Pablo,

While I'd agree that birch plywood is easier to screw and nail into, you can successfully build stuctural stuff out of MDF. I'll bet you've had problems with fasteners pulling out. MDF is a strong enough material, but it DOES have the problem that fasteners will pull out if you use the wrong kind. Also, dadoes should be shallow. I have a painted MDF TV stand with a 25" Sony XBR CRT on it, and structurally it's fine. I dowelled and glued the top to the sides (don't have a biscuit joiner).

There are special screws for particle board that work well on MDF. Home Depot has them in the specialty hardware section. They are relatively large diameter with coarse threads.

Forgot to say, Pablo -- BEAUTIFUL project in your photo!

Well, we wen to Sears and then to BB, and I go the JVC. However, they had a decent stand there, the wife loved it, got the guy to come off 50% on the stand price, so I guess I won't be making my own. I get to built it, but from the box, lol. Oh well, we'll see how it goes and fits into what we have. So thanks for all the suggestions, I'm sure I'll use them at point.

Originally posted by Kid Red
...they had a decent stand there, the wife loved it, got the guy to come off 50% on the stand price, so I guess I won't be making my own. I get to built it, but from the box, lol.

Kid, it happens to the best of us from time to time!

You all have inspired me to build my own. I'm novice as far as carpentry goes, but I'm fairly handy (built my kitchen and patio). My biggest set back is that our small condo does not afford me the space I need to do this project right, so I have to do some creative shuffling.

I've attached a drawing of what I'm thinking of building. Don't pay too much attention to the numbers I threw on there. I'm thinking the rough dimensions would be 64Wx22Hx20D. I'm planning on getting the Sony 55WF or XS to fill the space. And the drawers should allow for DVDs and manuals.

I can't decide whether to get solid pine (which would allow me to route a nice edge) or use plywood. I understand that plywood is cheaper and stronger, but are there any other reasons I should be convinced to go one way of the other?

Also I took a test run cutting some pine with my compound miter saw and the edges were the cuts were made were shredded. I'm guessing I have the wrong type of blade (although I have a carbide tip one that I thought was really good). What kind of blade will give me clean cuts?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

-stale

Stale,

Welcome!

Taking your questions from the top:

If you want to build this out of solid pine, you'll have to get glued-up panels, because you surely won't find any 20" wide pine boards! I know Home Depot carries them, but I'm not sure whether they have panels > 16". This may actually be a good choice for you if you're working in a condo, with limited space to maneuver 4x8 sheets of plywood. Of course, you could also have the lumber yard cut do the major cuts on your plywood for you, though you can't expect them to be more accurate than +/- 1/8".

Plywood is uniform, stable, and easy to work. And, depending on your source, you can get it in many hardwood veneers. I like to work in red oak and maple, myself, though I'll use birch if I'm painting something (also will use MDF if it's to be painted).

With plywood, for the edge, you can by plywood edge moulding specifically designed for the purpose. Or, you can get "iron-on" veneer tape in the same specie as your plywood, which is what I always do.

For furniture work you want a good carbide blade like Freud. My main blade for finish work is a 50-tooth blade. For plywood I have an 80-tooth blade. Be aware of whether the top or bottom of the board being cut will have the cleaner edge. For hardwood veneer plywood, even an 80-tooth blade is apt to tear oak veneer. You can put masking tape right down your intended cut line to minimize the problem. I also have a steel plywood blade that also does a fine job.

Hope this helps!

Originally posted by stale

Also I took a test run cutting some pine with my compound miter saw and the edges were the cuts were made were shredded. I'm guessing I have the wrong type of blade (although I have a carbide tip one that I thought was really good). What kind of blade will give me clean cuts?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

-stale

Try scoring the cut line with a utility knife before making the actual cut. This helps with plywood and may help with pine.

Originally posted by Kenlex
If you want to build this out of solid pine, you'll have to get glued-up panels, because you surely won't find any 20" wide pine boards! I know Home Depot carries them, but I'm not sure whether they have panels > 16". [/B]

Actually I was just at HD and they had 2'X4' pine boards. 3/4" and 1 1/8" thicknesses. However, I don't like the knots... too rustic looking for our likes.

We are going to apply a dark stain (ebony or espresso). I'm now thinking of using birch, but you mention you use it only for painting... whats the reasoning behind this.

Thanks

I don't do a lot of dark staining, but as I understand it, birch tends not to take stain evenly. Perhaps someone with more experience than I can advise on that.

Be aware that solid wood expands and contracts with humidity changes. This could be as much as 1/4 inch on a 24 inch wide piece. When constucting with solid wood, the rule is do not cross the grain of the wood. Wood expands in width, so put all the grain going in the same direction so the whole unit expands in the same dimension. Plywood is much more stable, so you should not have to worry about expansionn general for plywood.

Yes, birch does take stain unevenly. There are techniques to minimize this, but i don't remember them off hand. Try looking in Fiine Woodworking for staining advise, they had a good article about it a year or so ago. I don't stain that much, just varnish.

Tearout on plywwod is common. Using masking tape on the bottom of the board does help, but does not always work. I use an 80 tooth Freud blade ans still get some tearout with masking tape. The top of the board does not gte torn out on a ttable saw, the bottom does. When using a circular saw, the opposite is true, the top gets torn and the bottom is smooth. The side the cutting edge of the blade exits is the side of the wood that gets tornout.

Be aware that solid wood expands and contracts with humidity changes. This could be as much as 1/4 inch on a 24 inch wide piece. When constucting with solid wood, the rule is do not cross the grain of the wood. Wood expands in width, so put all the grain going in the same direction so the whole unit expands in the same dimension. Plywood is much more stable, so you should not have to worry about expansionn general for plywood.

Yes, birch does take stain unevenly. There are techniques to minimize this, but i don't remember them off hand. Try looking in Fiine Woodworking for staining advise, they had a good article about it a year or so ago. I don't stain that much, just varnish.

Tearout on plywwod is common. Using masking tape on the bottom of the board does help, but does not always work. I use an 80 tooth Freud blade ans still get some tearout with masking tape. The top of the board does not gte torn out on a ttable saw, the bottom does. When using a circular saw, the opposite is true, the top gets torn and the bottom is smooth. The side the cutting edge of the blade exits is the side of the wood that gets tornout.

Kenlex,
Yes you can use special fasteners and stuff for the MDF, but I do tend to overbuild. MDF won't be any good for shelves, as they will bend over time with weight. 3/4 PW is much stronger. Everything I build has to pass the Fat Carpenter Test!:D It has to hold me or my partner! If it's mounted on the wall, it too has to hold me! I am not going to take that chance with MDF. I don't want to get hurt!:p
As far as birch for painting and not staining. Around this area, most if not all kitchen cabinets from the 60's and 70's were built in place using Birch lumber core, or plywood. Most of the time they were stained. I have used dark stains on birch myself, such as Walnut Minwax, and also another Yield House stain to match some stuff at my mother's that my Dad built years ago. I never had any issues with it. You will see much more variations in grain with Pine in dark stains than Birch in my opinion. Especially with some of the pine products you get from HD. This Rosetta Pine that they are selling now has a very strong grain pattern. Really shows with dark stains. Sorry for the long winded post!

Pablo:p

Stale,
If you do decide to use solids for the top, don't glue it to the sides. It was a common practice "back in the day" to let the top "float" with expansion and contraction. I have used cleats inside the cabinet and screw the tops down from underneath. As the humidity changes, the top has the freedom to move independently. If you go and look at some dining room table and the such, the tops usually are screwed down, sometimes with the screws going through slots in the cleats as opposed to holes. If you ever watch New Yankee Workshop, you will see Norm do this too!:p I wish that I had used solids on the top of the project I am working on now. I made a last minute design change during construction which caused me to go a different route. I might still change it, but I am using Cherry. Good chunk of money for the top, and I have to find some nice materials too.

Pablo

Originally posted by Pablopsd
MDF won't be any good for shelves, as they will bend over time with weight. 3/4 PW is much stronger.

...

As far as birch for painting and not staining. Around this area, most if not all kitchen cabinets from the 60's and 70's were built in place using Birch lumber core, or plywood. Most of the time they were stained. I have used dark stains on birch myself, such as Walnut Minwax, and also another Yield House stain to match some stuff at my mother's that my Dad built years ago. I never had any issues with it.

Excellent points, Pablo.

You're right about MDF bending--but it depends on the span. The top shelf of my stand for my Sony 25" TV has a 26" span AND, MORE IMPORTANTLY, the "feet" of the TV put the weight way out towards the side supports. So, there is no weight on the center of the span, and no bending whatsoever.

Built-in-place birch cabinets -- ah, yes. My Dad built himself a kitchen full of those in the '50s. With modern finishes, it's probably different, but he left his unstained and simply varnished them, and the whole shebang had a decidedly yellow cast after awhile. I've been doing my work lately in natural maple ply finished with Minwax Polycrylic, which is a very clear finish that doesn't darken or yellow.

YEP

Using MDF for anything except a outhouse should be avoided. Same goes for OSB!

Both cheap, and you get what you pay for...............;)

Originally posted by Pablopsd
Stale,
If you do decide to use solids for the top, don't glue it to the sides. It was a common practice "back in the day" to let the top "float" with expansion and contraction. I have used cleats inside the cabinet and screw the tops down from underneath. As the humidity changes, the top has the freedom to move independently. Pablo


Does plywood expand as much as solid? I uderstand that plywood might be more stable given the layers. I used glue and biscuits to attach the top to the sides and center dividers of my stand. Is that going to be a problem later?

Originally posted by Pine2
Does plywood expand as much as solid? I uderstand that plywood might be more stable given the layers.

Plywood is more stable because the grain of each ply runs perpendicular to the grain of the next.

I think I've decided to go for birch plywood. We've done some staining tests and I like the results.

The only problem is HD, Lowes, and DixieLine do not seem to carry birch molding. I wanted to use a little to coverup the horizontal edges, and birch edging tape (?) to do the verticals...

What a great idea. I did that this past summer to prepare for my HDTV. I used oak plywood with the iron on oak edging (quite easy to use) For the uprights I used 1.5"extruded aluminum from 8020.net. The adjustable center shelves are sealed and painted MDF. My wife loved it. Total cost was about $200. If you count the cost of the table saw that adds another $300.

Now all it needs is a HDTV

Cheers
Joeren
:D

Oh. BTW. I'm new to this site and have been reading the posts for about a week. Lot's of very good information. Thanks
Joeren

Stale,
I have used a combo of pine with birch PW, and dark stains. It worked for me. Try to use a native soft pine though, nice grain. Get a scrap and test it out. Don't know where you are, but we have a lot of scraps from the job daily here in MA!

Pablo

Originally posted by joeren
What a great idea. I did that this past summer to prepare for my HDTV. I used oak plywood with the iron on oak edging (quite easy to use) For the uprights I used 1.5"extruded aluminum from 8020.net. The adjustable center shelves are sealed and painted MDF. My wife loved it. Total cost was about $200. If you count the cost of the table saw that adds another $300.

Now all it needs is a HDTV

Cheers
Joeren
:D

That is the best "knock-off" (and I mean that as a sincere compliment) of a Salamander Triple 20 that I've ever seen! At a fraction of the cost. Can you get door hinges that will attach to the 8020.net aluminum posts? Just great!

They have everything you can imagine at 8020.net. Thanks for the compliment. I just couldn't see paying $850.

Joeren

Originally posted by stale
I've attached a drawing of what I'm thinking of building. Don't pay too much attention to the numbers I threw on there. I'm thinking the rough dimensions would be 64Wx22Hx20D. I'm planning on getting the Sony 55WF or XS to fill the space. And the drawers should allow for DVDs and manuals.
-stale [/B]

Nice design, I'm trying to figure out how you are going to make it 22 high with those drawers - I figured with top, bottom, shelf, footings of some sort that squeaking out 15 inches or so without drawers was pretty tough. Do your measurements add up?

Originally posted by joeren
What a great idea. I did that this past summer to prepare for my HDTV. I used oak plywood with the iron on oak edging (quite easy to use) For the uprights I used 1.5"extruded aluminum from 8020.net. The adjustable center shelves are sealed and painted MDF. My wife loved it. Total cost was about $200. If you count the cost of the table saw that adds another $300.

Now all it needs is a HDTV

Cheers
Joeren
:D
Nice! I have been thinking of building exactly this using the same 8020. You have any other pics or details?

The dimentions are close to the Salamander designs triple 20. I called them to see if they would make one a little shorter. They wouldn't do it. So I built my own. During the process I decided to put the center channel speaker in the shelf below the TV so I built it to roughly the same dimentions as the Salamander. I'll dig up what I can of my plans and post them soon. I have to travel tomorrow so it won't be until Friday or Saturday.

Originally posted by timdlp
Nice design, I'm trying to figure out how you are going to make it 22 high with those drawers - I figured with top, bottom, shelf, footings of some sort that squeaking out 15 inches or so without drawers was pretty tough. Do your measurements add up?

Hey, thanks for looking at this.

The Heights add up like this:

7" - Drawers for DVDs
7" - Middle shelf for Center Speaker, HtPC and Receiver
4.5" - Top shelf for Tivo, DVD and VCR
1" - feet
4x0.75" - height of shelves
-------
22.5"

The tightest component is my receiver which is 6.5" tall. This might be a little too tight... but I suppose I can forget the top shelves and stack the components.

Stale-

Give the reciever some room about to cool off. 1/2 inch even 1 1/14 inches above a receiver is not sufficient venting to cool a receiver. At these close distances you had better get used to replacing your burned out receiver. A fan may help, but I would give it 2-3 inches minimum. DVD players and VCRs do not give off near the heat a receiver or Satelite box does, so they can live at closer quarters than a reveiver.

Originally posted by trtinkerer
Stale-

Give the reciever some room about to cool off. 1/2 inch even 1 1/14 inches above a receiver is not sufficient venting to cool a receiver. At these close distances you had better get used to replacing your burned out receiver. A fan may help, but I would give it 2-3 inches minimum. DVD players and VCRs do not give off near the heat a receiver or Satelite box does, so they can live at closer quarters than a reveiver.

Yeah... thats what I was afraid of. I need good circulation for my htpc as well. Thats one reason I was going to have slots on the sides... but its probably not enough.

Stale...

Welcome to the thread. Depending on what you're looking for in the way of edging plywood, HD & Lowes have some possibilities. HD has iron on birch edging which worked out fine for me. I also believe I saw some cherry or alder/basswood (?) edge molding there, but it was ¾" shelf molding and contoured. If you have a tablesaw, you can buy some solid ¾" wood and cut strips. I was looking for a contemporary style, so I didn't want any rounded or detailed trim... so I had to settle for the oak. But the end result worked out fine with my dark stain. The oak grain isn't as predominant as one would think.

As far as staining birch plywood/solids goes... take it from me, it's not easy but it can be done. After struggling to get a particular shade (rosewood), I finally learned that you should try some samples and assume nothing. But assuming :) you have the cabinet built, and you might be using a water-based dye stain, here's the general process that worked for me:

1. Sand and vacumn the wood and only use a long hair brush to vacumn. Anthing rubbing on wood can leave a hidden mark that will show up later.
2. With a damp rag, wipe down the wood to raise the grain, then wait for it to dry and repeat the sanding/vacumn process.
3. Apply a Wood Conditioner with a brush (not a sealer), and while wet/damp, you start applying the stain doing a section at a time.
4. Let the stain set up but wipe it up to get the desired look, and let it dry overnight. Don't let it sit on the wood too long or you won't be able to keep it even-looking.
5. Get some _crystal clear_ Bullseye pure Shellac and dilute it 50/50 with denatured alcohol, and brush it on.
6. Use a water-based urethane and apply 2-3 coats, letting each coat dry maybe 4-6 hours. In between coats, use a fiber pad to lightly scuff the surface and remove any irregularities.

Again, this worked out OK for me. My stand is made with birch plywood and oak trim (horizontals) and birch banding on the verticals. You can go back in this thread and see just about every (agonizing... just ask Pablo) step and mis-step I went through. But definitely do some sample pieces to get color and finish before diving in.

Originally posted by stale
I think I've decided to go for birch plywood. We've done some staining tests and I like the results.

The only problem is HD, Lowes, and DixieLine do not seem to carry birch molding. I wanted to use a little to coverup the horizontal edges, and birch edging tape (?) to do the verticals...

Any software recommendations for making a schematic drawing? Plus maybe the ability to do a 3d view?

Here's a drawing using Microsoft Visio. I custom made my shelf and scaled pictures of my equipment before I even built the thing so I knew where everything would go. (A lot easier to drag pictures over with a mouse) The plywood is oak with iron on edging, stained to match my speakers. Most dimensions are in the drawing. Salamander used to have a detailed drawing on their web page but it doesn't look like it's there any longer. 8020 is easy to work with and they will cut to length and tap the ends for you if you want. I did all that myself. For hardware I used 8020 corner brackets 1" for the adjustable shelves. All of the other hardware, welding nuts, furniture slides, flanged button head bolts. I got online from McMaster Carr. If I find the pdf of Salamanders I will email it to you.

Joeren

without adjustable shelves

Thanks Joeren! Really nice the way it turned out. Oh when you say that they can cut it to length and tap it, did you that your self? If so what did you use to cut it?

Joeren,

Thanks for the info and the pictures. I was thinking of doing the same thing with the ITEM MB kit products. They can be found at www.itemAmerica.com. I am not sure of the pricing but I will check. Thanks again for the information and inspiration.

I purchased some scrap pieces from work (few minor dings and scratches) and actually had someone cut it for me in the shop. I think they used a good band chop saw. The center hole runs the length of the extrusion and is the correct diameter for a 5/16 tap. The ITEM products can be used just as easily and are less expensive. ITEM also has the black anodized extrusions which 8020 charges an arm and a leg for. I went with the 8020 because I got it cheap.

I have bought some molding for a face frame. The molding is 1/8-1/4 too wide. What is the best way to shave off the molding so it fits perfectly? I don't have a table saw, I'm worried that the jig saw would be to uneven, and I'm sure I can't do a straight cut with circular saw.

Optionally I could buy a belt sander and sand it down... don't know if my orbital would be sufficient for the job.

If you are going to sand off that much, I would use a belt sander. CAUTION!!!! If you are not careful, you WILL sand through the veneer on the plywood that you are trying to edge VERY EASY!!! You could also use a flush trimming bit in a router, but that has its issues as well, such as ripping the moulding apart. If the grain of the molding is funky, the bit could just tear it apart. You could also glue and/or nail a small piece of wood under the PW to make it the same thickness or a little bigger than the molding. Not knowing the design, don't know if this would work. But no tablesaw to make this either. Time to go buy one!! :-)

Pablo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stale
I have bought some molding for a face frame. The molding is 1/8-1/4 too wide. What is the best way to shave off the molding so it fits perfectly? I don't have a table saw, I'm worried that the jig saw would be to uneven, and I'm sure I can't do a straight cut with circular saw.

Optionally I could buy a belt sander and sand it down... don't know if my orbital would be sufficient for the job. [/QUOTE

Like Pablopsd said, be real careful sanding that close to the veneer, you can go right through before you realize. I would switch to a sanding block once you approach the edge for control. The alternative is that you just leave the 1/8-1/4 overhang and center the moulding. Many cabinets like this are built with a faceframe, which gives the unit edges a thicker look from the front. Although a wider overhang is more normal.

The stand is just about done. Maybe one more coat of Miniwax wipe-on poly and the main frame and doors will be complete. I still have to make the shelves, but that should be a weekender. These pics are just before and just after staining with no top coat.

Used 170 degree euro hinges from Rockler. The center is mortised to accept a black mesh of some type ala Salamander.

Solar-lux mahogany brown dye stain.

stale,

What you're doing sounds like edgeing, rather than a face frame.

I'd suggest using a block plane, a hand tool that shouldn't set you back too much. It would accomplish the same thing as a belt sander, but with less risk to the veneer. (Still, I'd put some masking tape on the plywood lest you get too close and nick or tear it.)

Plane the moulding down, taking small bites (1/32 or so) with each pass. Take care to note which way the grain goes on the moulding, so that the plane doesn't bite deeper in than you want. When you get close, switch to a hand sanding block, or use a finishing sander. Remove the masking tape for the final sanding passes. Like the others have said, it's waaay too easy to sand through the veneer.

Solar-lux mahogany brown dye stain.Yes............ Why would anyone want to paint wood?

joeren; nice idea if you don't want to cut/make legs yourself. Are they only available is chrome? Any dark color, or can they be painted? How much for each leg?

What you're doing sounds like edgeing, rather than a face frame.

I'd suggest using a block plane, a hand tool that shouldn't set you back too much.

Cool Beans. I'll give that a try.

Originally posted by Pablopsd
But no tablesaw to make this either. Time to go buy one!! :-)


If only I had the room to store it...

videobruce
The leveling legs could be made yourself, if you like. The ones I purchased are from McMaster Carr for $1.83 each (cat# 62805K34). They had a pretty good selection. Local stores like Home Depot also carries some leveling legs. I went with the poly base because they slide so easily on the hardwood floor. I can take the fully loaded shelf with TV and slide it out with no problem

Joeren

Stale...

If the molding is already attached (ie glued) to the plywood, you're in a scary place. You don't know anyone with a table saw? Using a plane to remove that much wood is tedious, not to mention tricky when you get close to the veneer surface. My advice if you're doing it this way is to leave the extra material on the side you won't see. IOW, make the top edge flush and let the extra material be on the "inside" of the top of the cabinet. That way you won't see any mistakes you might make with a plane.

You can actually buy a relatively inexpensive hobby-type table saw for well under a hundred bucks. Here's a couple of examples:

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00923204000&tab=spe#tablink

http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0138074545.1107810840@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccdhadddkkkdjmecgelceffdfgidgjl.0&CNTTYPE=PROD_META&CNTKEY=Super%20Categories/Tools%20%26%20Hardware&MID=9876&pos=p06

These are probably identical saws, and without the base, the measure less than 36" wide, 26" deep, and 18" high. You can pick them up and carry them around quite easily, and what I'd do is store it in the garage on or off the base. And I'd use the base or clamp the unit to a table or workbench before cutting anything.

These are not contractor's saws or real cabinet saws, but in a pinch I've used them (other peoples, not my own), and they can be useful. And if you search around your locale, you might find something similar for under $50 used but working.

I had the foresight to not mount the molding yet, fortunately. I can let the molding on the horizontal planes hang a little low, but not on the vertical planes. All and all, I want it flush.

I'm going to first try the block plane, and then my jigsaw. Failing that, I have my angle grinder for when I get mad ;)

Cost isn't my problem with the tablesaw, I literally have no place to put any more tools. We've got a small place, and my other tools have pretty much taken up my toolshed.

Speaking of table saws, what are some recomendations? What are people using?

Worms...

My tablesaw is an antique of sorts... a late 60's/early 70's vintage Craftsman 10" contractor's saw. Cast iron table and wing wit a custom outfeed roller and zero clearance insert.

My Slider Miter saw is a Hitachi 8½" that is a work of art.

If I could afford it, I'd love to have a older Unisaw, but some of the new hybrid saws... even Craftsman, would also work out OK for me. I don't have room for a full blown cabinet saw which can be 50+ inches wide.

If you have your saw set up reasonably well, almost any decent table saw would be more than adequate for hobbyist work. The older Sears (Models 113.xxxxxxx) are built like tanks and work just fine IMHO.

What I'd like to have is a medium-sized bandsaw (10"-12") before I buy another teablesaw. Sears just came out with a neat 10" bandsaw... with a tilting "arbor/blade" system and a fixed table. All cast iron and it doesn't look bad.

videobruce
I picked up a Ryobi BT3100 from Home Depot. I justified the purchase by saving the money buy building the stand myself rather than purchase the Salamander shelf. The table was a little small for the length cut I had to make but I made a couple of practice runs with scrap wood and took my time. The saw worked great and I've used it many time since. I would recommend it to anyone.
joeren

Big Worms,
I use a Delta Unisaw. What you need to look for is a belt driven table saw, not one that is directly attached to the motor. Belt driven drive the blade faster and have a lot less runout. After that cast iron tables are better than pressed metal tables, but cost more. Also look at the tablesaw and ask is this saw going to move a lot when I put a sheet of plywood through it. There are several good contractors saws in the $700 price range. Delta and Jet come to mind.

I'll second the votes for the Delta and the Jet (I have a souped-up Delta contractor's saw), but I'll also recommend the new DeWalt table saws. They're a lot of bang-for-the-buck and have all sorts of accessories and attachments when woodworking upgrade-itis strikes.

Jason

Hey Pine,
Where did you get that stain? I am trying to match mine new cherry cabinet to the Polk speakers, and yours looks like it might be close. I haven't had a lot of time to try to match stuff. We have a pretty large remodel job going on, and it is taking a ton of my time. You know, the joys of being self employed, you have all kinds of free time, and can just work whenever you want.......

Pablo

If money is tight and you'd rather spend it on upgrading your 52" set to a 62" :) then you actually might want to look at a Sears Craftsman. Here's a shot of three of the latest "hybrid" saws which are in-between the so-called "contractor's saw" and the "cabinet saw".

The Sears on the left sells for $599 in the store plus any sales or coupons you can come up with. The DeWalt sells for around $850on Amazon and the Jet... sells for $999.00 on Amazon.

All these saws have legit dust ports, cast iron tables and cast iron extentions, plus decent fences. I know all the stories about Crapsman, but honestly, that extra $250-$400 could go for a Forest II blade and a Shop Fox dust collector. While I'd drool over a Unisaw, I would be very happy if I found that Craftsman in my shop tomorrow morning. The only option I'd get would be a HD moveable base like I have on my current saw. I've cut plywood and PT lumber on it and have yet to see that saw move when it's in locked down mode. If I do get a bandsaw that is heavy (like a 14" Delta) then I'd get the moveable base for that too.

When I think about how I've gotten buy with my old Craftsman contractor's saw for all these years, I could only replace it if I had already bought a BS and a DC unit first, or there was a deal on a 110v Unisaw that I could not pass up. Buying a Unisaw with a 220v or even a 3 phase motor could be a headache and expensive to set up. I don't think you can even run a 3 phase motor in a residential setup.

But like all of us who have fun with these toys, we can all find _something_ we wanta'-gotta' have... right?

Originally posted by Pablopsd
Hey Pine,
Where did you get that stain? I am trying to match mine new cherry cabinet to the Polk speakers, and yours looks like it might be close. I haven't had a lot of time to try to match stuff. We have a pretty large remodel job going on, and it is taking a ton of my time. You know, the joys of being self employed, you have all kinds of free time, and can just work whenever you want.......

Pablo

Behlen Solar-Lux stain is available at www.garrettwade.com or www.woodworker.com among other sites. I wouldn't go by the color in my posting since the pic color varies so much depending on the underlying wood type and the lighting conditions. Sometimes the color is redder if I use a flash. Behlen has cherry stains also, which are lighter than the brown mahogany (which is still reddish) I used. Also, I don't know how experienced you are with NGR dye stains compared to miniwax type, but unless the dye stains are sprayed on, it is difficult to avoid lap marks over a large surface area (like a table top) because the stain soaks in and dries so darn fast (which is good since they can be top coated in an hour).

Originally posted by IronHorse

1. Sand and vacumn the wood and only use a long hair brush to vacumn. Anthing rubbing on wood can leave a hidden mark that will show up later.
2. With a damp rag, wipe down the wood to raise the grain, then wait for it to dry and repeat the sanding/vacumn process.
3. Apply a Wood Conditioner with a brush (not a sealer), and while wet/damp, you start applying the stain doing a section at a time.
4. Let the stain set up but wipe it up to get the desired look, and let it dry overnight. Don't let it sit on the wood too long or you won't be able to keep it even-looking.
5. Get some _crystal clear_ Bullseye pure Shellac and dilute it 50/50 with denatured alcohol, and brush it on.
6. Use a water-based urethane and apply 2-3 coats, letting each coat dry maybe 4-6 hours. In between coats, use a fiber pad to lightly scuff the surface and remove any irregularities.


So, I've started staining. I've sanded, then used wood-conditioner, then apply 2 coats of stain. The color I liked only came in a stain+polyurathane mix. So I need to coats and thats it according to the can.

Between coats I use a 0000 fine steel spung to rough up the coat.

What I'm finding is that my stain collects little bits after it dries.I'm not sure if its dust or pollen in the air, but on close inspection it shows up.

What is the best way to remove these imperfections, but still maintain a nice finish? The steel spung seems to dull the finish.

Originally posted by IronHorse
Here's a shot of three of the latest "hybrid" saws which are in-between the so-called "contractor's saw" and the "cabinet saw".



For another view, the Feb 05 issue of Workbench Magazine has a test of these 3 plus the General model.

Thanks for all the feedback on the table saws. Cutting with a circular saw and staight edge is not the easiest thing in the world.

Pine,
what did you use to spray it? HVLP? I have one of those, but not a good place to use it in the winter, and don't want to screw up the cherry wood $$$$. Wouldn't want to go through Iron Horses trials with the finish. Right IH? ;)

Pablo

Originally posted by Pablopsd
Pine,
what did you use to spray it? HVLP? I have one of those, but not a good place to use it in the winter, and don't want to screw up the cherry wood $$$$. Wouldn't want to go through Iron Horses trials with the finish. Right IH? ;)

Pablo

I used a "Critter" sprayer at about 35 psi. Basically, its a large airbrush. Your HVLP would give better atomization and control over the spray pattern. The critter sprayer pattern is round and relatively narrow, which takes some getting used to. I was also concerned with the low garage temperature (it was snowing when I did it), but found that the dye spray works regardless (Use a good filtration mask, not one of those disposable paper dust masks). It seems that the base is like alcohol in that it evaporates very quickly and is "largely" unaffected by temperature. I would not have tried staining with miniwax at that temperature.

Sorry to jump in. Can I show off my pics? I wanted to get a 60 inch tv or larger and wanted to kiddie corner it. There are very few options available other than custom made for tv's over 40 inches. My carpenter friend wanted $5000 plus to build what I wanted - I spent about $500 on materials and another $300 on custom doors bought on-line. It was good fun and I am proud of the results. All the woodwork in my house is painted white so that was the intention from the beginning. I have to admit - painting over all that hardwood killed me - but oh well.

Here are multiple pics from the beginning. Totally stick built with only a general plan in my head. My only limitations were I needed to fit the Samsung HLP6163.


<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/bostonbob/entertainmentcenter002.jpg">

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/bostonbob/entertainmentcenter011.jpg">

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/bostonbob/a4a04ad5.jpg">

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/bostonbob/1cd324e6.jpg">

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/bostonbob/entertainmentcenter049.jpg">

I am posting these to show that with very little experience and about 5 days of work - you can get good results and save some serious dough.

yikes - those pics are worthless - let me try this

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/bostonbob/entertainmentcenter001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/bostonbob/entertainmentcenter004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/bostonbob/entertainmentcenter012.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/bostonbob/a4a04ad5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/bostonbob/296609e0.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/bostonbob/3d45801e.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/bostonbob/1cd324e6.jpg

finished product:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v431/bostonbob/entertainmentcenter049.jpg

Bob,

Looks very nice. What pains me more than your painting over the hardwood is your covering over a perfectly fine window! But the end result looks like it really fits in well.

Just curious -- what provision did you make for access to the back of your TV?

Bob, really nice job!

Thanks Guys - my uncle said the same thing about my window! However, that room is filled with too many windows as it is. It is on the NW side of house and most of my sun comes in from front. It is not a safety issue either since it is over my garage so drop is about 18 feet to drive below. Those lower two cabinets are 30 inches wide each. Plenty enough room to crawl through. I am only 37 now so no big deal - when I get older I might need to get my 2 boys do it :)

Originally posted by stale
Actually I was just at HD and they had 2'X4' pine boards. 3/4" and 1 1/8" thicknesses. However, I don't like the knots... too rustic looking for our likes.

We are going to apply a dark stain (ebony or espresso). I'm now thinking of using birch, but you mention you use it only for painting... whats the reasoning behind this.

Thanks
What brand are you using for the stain?

Stale...

I would not use steel wool in-between coats. Get some of the fiber "sandpaper" they sell at Woodworkers or Rockler. These sheets are 1/4" thick and work far better than steel wool for the in-between stuff. Once you finish your "sanding" do a good job with a dusting brush, then vacumn with a tool end that has a brush on it. Finally... wipe it with a tack rag.

As Pablo knows, I went thru hell with my finish, but only because I used sealer instead of the pre-stain wood treatment.

Hey Paul... I think I'm going to get a bandsaw. I almost bought a Delta 14" Platinum last week (used but loaded and perfect), but while I was thinking about it, another guy pulled out his wallet! The guy was 5 miles away, so picking it up was no problem. It was a bit more than I wanted to spend, but it was also a bit more saw than I probably needed. Hitachi now has a 12" saw which looks better suited to my shop and needs... cast iron table too. Lowes has them for $299.00 and I have a 10% off coupon. Maybe.

There is a real old Craftsman bandsaw at my mother's that I never use. I used to use it as a kid, but I don't really care for it too much. My sister wants it for "crafts" like that will really happen!

Paul

Originally posted by IronHorse
I would not use steel wool in-between coats. Get some of the fiber "sandpaper" they sell at Woodworkers or Rockler. ...

Ackk... I wish I read this earlier.

My TV stand is complete, but I built a sofa table at the same time and I'm dissappointed in the finish. I used a polyurathane finish and it said to do a light sanding with 220 grit paper in between coats. So I did that but we can see the scrap marks from the sand paper. I did not use my orbital sander because I was afriad it would take off the stain...

Any advice on what the best way to fix this? You guys have been so helpful already.

Thanks

stale,

Did you sand through the varnish and sand away some of the stain? That would be a real hassle.

I always recommend wet-sanding, followed by a good wipe-down.

If you DIDN'T go down to the stain, I would suggest a uniform wet-sanding with 320 grit to get rid of the scratch marks, and then another coat.

Good luck!

Originally posted by Kenlex
If you DIDN'T go down to the stain, I would suggest a uniform wet-sanding with 320 grit to get rid of the scratch marks, and then another coat.


Fortunately I did not sand down to the stain.

What do you mean by a uniform wet-sanding? Is this with an orbiting sander or by hand?

Kenlex...

I suspect that Stale hasn't gone down to the stain, but apparently has some deeper surface cuts from sandpaper that are showing up as "scratches" once the stain was applied. This usually results from using too coarse a paper, and/or sanding across the grain in an effort to achieve some leveling need.

There's not much you can do with that, short of stripping the wood and trying to get the stain out of the deeper crevices... then starting all over again. Very dark stains are somewhat forgiving in this respect, but medium-light colors are not.

Palm sanders with high-quality 320 paper usually get rid of these mini-gouges in the sanding process. And if you can find something 400 grit that isn't wet, you can try that too.

But Stale, I don't know if you can get those scratches out.

Actually, I used Klenex's advice and wet-sanded with 320 grit. It actually caused me to take a little stain of the edges (I might have been a little more careful), but I restained the edges, and finished the rest. The scratches are mostly gone, and we are much happier.

Thanks to everyone. I'll try to post pictures if people are interested. I ended up going to same route as joeren by using the 80/20 aluminum polls. We are pretty happy with the result. My sofa table is zen insipred...

Stale,

I'm glad it worked out for you. I would have responded to your "what do you mean by general wet-sanding" query, but I was off-net for a few days.

I haven't posted on this thread for a while and just picked it up again.
As I was reading all the past posts I saw there was a lot of discussion about staining and finishing your project so I thought I would add my 2 cents worth.
As some of you have probably already found out, building the TV stand is the easy part. The toughest part is staining and finishing it and making it look good. All that time and work on your new EC can be ruined in no time flat by not applying the stain and finish properly. The Minwax commercials make it look easy. It's not. You can't learn how to do it from the back of a stain can or from a Home Depot salesman. He mixes paint. Before you even buy the stain or finish, I suggest you go to the library or bookstore and pick up a copy of "Understanding Wood Finishing. How to Select and Apply the Right Finish" by Bob Flexner. ($15) In my opinion it is the best and most understandable book on finishing wood that I have found. I have 2 copies, though I'm not sure why. It takes you from sanding to the final finish. It describes all the different types of stains and finishes. Their advantages and disadvantages. How to apply them and how to fix them if you screw it up. The book also makes suggestions on how to stain and finish different types of wood. No, my name is not Bob Flexner. <g> It's always better to have an idea how to do something before you start. It's free at the library.
More 2 cents worth. Staining is tough enough. Make it easier on yourself. Use the same type of wood for both the cabinet and trim. Don't mix woods. (birch cabinet and pine or poplar trim) It is very hard to make them look the same color. Let's face it. You just dropped 3 to 5 grand on a big, new flashy TV and have another $1000 worth of AV stuff, why cheap out on the TV cabinet. Spend the extra $100 on a sheet of cherry plywood or oak or whatever and get some matching solid trim. You won't regret it. The end result will not only look better, but it should be much easier to finish.
Final 2 cents worth. If you do much woodworking at all, spend the bucks on a HVLP sprayer instead of the new mortiser or bandsaw. In my opinion, you can get a much better finish with a sprayer than you can with a brush. It is messier though.
Too preachy? Sorry.

Here is a pic of the Mits 52725 stand with doors closed. I need to make horizontal shelves and consider a backing to hide the wires (which is a rats nest until I decide the arrangement of components). It's about 64" wide and about 20" deep. The 20" height brings the center of the tv image down to my eye level when seated, give or take an inch.

Originally posted by Pine2
Here is a pic of the Mits 52725 stand with doors closed. I need to make horizontal shelves and consider a backing to hide the wires (which is a rats nest until I decide the arrangement of components). It's about 64" wide and about 20" deep. The 20" height brings the center of the tv image down to my eye level when seated, give or take an inch.

Originally posted by Pine2

Pine2,

Great looking stand! Good work. Enjoy it.

Hey dadetigl, That was closer to a dimes worth.

:D :D :D

Some good advise though for those who haven't done much woodworking.

I thought I would come back and post a photo of my now completed JVC HD-ILA stand.
Advice and looking at photos of other posters’ stands helped a lot. Actually, I drew up the designs starting with some drawings on here and then my carpenter friend whipped it up. My dimensions are roughly 20h x 41w x 17d.

Pokelahoma; your carpenter did a nice job, but too bad the 'silver' of that set detracts from everything. Dark rich looking wood and chinsy silver................

Paul will appreciate this. Just acquired a Jet 14" bandsaw and some other new tools including a Delta drill press, a dust collection system and power air filter. Getting ready to start the 2nd phase of my entertainment wall next week.

Paul... keep your eye on the lookout for a used 10" cabinet saw (Unisaw, Jet, Grizzly, etc.) Has to be 220v single phase.

Mike

To bring this thread back from the dead and to show my stand after months of sitting in the basement waiting to sell my 15 year old CRT RPTV, here it is. (pretend it's a 50" Microdisplay sitting on top) The slot on the right is for the tower when all is said and done.;)

This is a wide shot of the corner and why I did what I did. Th position of the stand might have to move to the left when I get the set, but this was a guess on placement. The way the Living room is setup it has to go here, unfortunately blocking the fireplace. The TV is functional, the fireplace isn't (at least not anymore).

Here is a closeup of the rear. The power strip/protection unit I 'hung' with 4" right angles. It was a $80 unit that I got from a Hamfest for $25 (new)! BTW, I'll put that up against those $200+ overpriced consumer gimmicks. I also used two round head long metal screws as posts to tie the cables to.

Bruce,

Congratulations! It looks great. I especially like the look the half-round moulding gave the edges of the shelves. It's interesting the way it kind of wraps around the vertical support R of center, and on the bottom shelf it provides a nice break above the toe-kick.

Mike,
What kind of movable cart do you have under the band saw? Is it something that the machine can be cammed up off the ground to move it, and once you have it where you want it, dropped down so that the machine does not walk around under use? I hope that my second question is understandable.
I have an old Atlas band saw that I would like to set up the way yours is set up.
Fred

Kenlex; as I stated in a previous post with a detail shot, I needed someway to 'hide' the grain of the plywood and that seemed the easiest and cheapest.
I'm just disappointed with the stain. It should of been much, much darker! I have NO idea what I was or wasn't thinking at the time. It's not even close to the rest of the baseboards or furniture iin the room.

Yes, I understand the purpose of the moulding; just saying that beyond its functional purpose, using half-round added some nice stylistic touches compared to other mothods (edge-banding tape or a shelf-edge moulding that is much "flatter" than half-round).

Fred...

You hit the nail right on the head. The stand has four (4) wheels and the rear two are swivel units set up on a sort of cammed arrangement with a large (4"?) curved lever that allows you to lift with your toe, press with your sole. In the lift position, it hikes up the back of the saw about 3/4" and you can move it anywhere, then when you drop it... it's resting on large adjustable sliders in the rear, and non-swivel wheels in the front. Theres a sheet of 3/4" plywood inlaid in the metal frame, and the saw base is fastened to the plywood so there's no chance of it tipping out. I believe the "cart" is a Woodcraft item.

My current table saw also has a mobile cart, and I intend to put locking casters on my jointer. I'm probably going to sell/replace the tablesaw, and when I do, the "new" cabinet saw will have to have mobility as well.

Originally posted by Pelallito
Mike,
What kind of movable cart do you have under the band saw? Is it something that the machine can be cammed up off the ground to move it, and once you have it where you want it, dropped down so that the machine does not walk around under use? I hope that my second question is understandable.
I have an old Atlas band saw that I would like to set up the way yours is set up.
Fred

BTW, for those of you who are forever looking for hardware, one of the catalogs I would heartily recommend is Lee Valley's. Here's a link:

https://www.leevalley.com/home/CatalogSelect.aspx?c=2

Do yourself a favor, order something online and get the three (3) main catalogs (woodworking tools, hardware, and garden tools). Your better half will love the garden catalog, and the hardware catalog may inspire you to change hardware on existing cabinets... although there's way more than knobs and drawer pulls in that monster.

Iron Horse,
I will go to Woodcraft and price it out, I want one.
Do you have your PM activated? I tried sending you a message a while ago with no response.
Thanks for the information on the stand.
Regards,
Fred

Fred...

I apologize for not checking. I did disable the notification a while back. Thanks for the link. From what I understand, the phase converters needed for a typical 3 HP Unisaw are worth about $750-$1000 which is more than I want to spend on a (used) saw!

I'd sooner wait and see if I can find a 220v single phase cabinet saw, hopefully a local one, and just run a 220v line from the service panel to the shop (about 25 feet).

Mike

Mike,
I am glad that you liked the website. Sometimes woodworking equipment shows up there in the classified/sales area.
I think that you can get the converter for less than that. I think that I paid about $300 to $400 for the one I bought for my little surface grinder.
It probably would be cheaper to just run the 220 Volt line to the machine. I still have to do that to my surface grinder.
Thanks you for the BYO stand thread. I have enjoyed it a lot.
Regards,
Fred

IH
Sorry it took so long to respond. I haven't been poking around here too much lately. Very busy with a big project for work. Anyway, If I come across a good deal on a used Unisaw, I will let you know so that you can come and check it out in MY shop!

:D :D :D :D

Paul

PS I put a coat of stain on my cabinet.........Finally.

Paul...

You must be busy because you were going at warp speed for a while on the TV stand... right?

After I finish my entertainment room, one of my "Honey-Do" projects might be some built-ins in the living room. I remember some pix you sent once of a white-finished built-in setup and wanted to ask your advice on something. First, we have a fireplace centered in the LR, and what the wife wants me to do is build bookcases on either side. The mantel/trim is all white semi-gloss, and the top of the mantel extends about 6" past all other vertical trim from the floor up. I'm thinking I should "bury" the excess by snipping it off, and establish the inside vertical columns for the bookcases by actually building them out towards the opposite wall. That would give me some depth to work with. I could also look into notching into the wall with the cabinet and cheat it a little... maybe pick up 3"in depth, then make the unit 10" deep on top, and if I incorporate doors on the bottom, make that 12"-14" deep. Waaddayyaa think?

Mike

Well, I'm back! Well, maybe. After I got the decent stand from BB with my TV purchase and put off my mission to build a stand I am now interested in an entertainment center. I have contacts some local home theater custom cabinet makers to gauge prices, but one quick on based on past work started at $7 grand!! For a unit that's 70" tall and maybe 100" wide, $7 grand just sounds like over kill to me.

So, I still have to hear back from 3 guys. Depending on their prices, I may end up trying my damnedest to do it myself. I wanted to pass along my rough idea for some feedback. I ordered 'How To Build An Entertainment Center' actually, 2 books of the same title, from Amazon to help with the details. One thing will be doors, getting glass cut and then mounting them into a door frame. Drawers will also be a major pain as well as showing little if any screws/nail/ plugs.

Any one know offhand where to get DVD racks for mounting inside on shelves for pull out? And also where to get speaker cloth/grills for covering doors where a speaker will be placed?

This is my rough, very rough idea. The crosshatched areas are for my center, front mains (towers) and my sub.

Hey Kid,
For 7G's Plus, you can fly Iron Horse and me down, and we will hook you up! How does that sound IH?

Also, I am attaching a photo of a project that we did around an existing fireplace. This had nothing but brick when we started. We looked at some books, and the homowner saw something she liked, and we made it. Alot of time, bookshelves are 12" deep. In my opinion and experience, you don't need to have them 12" deep. 10 is more than enough. If the shelves are too deep, the books will slide way back, or you will have a lot of wasted space behind the books. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by Kid Red
Well, I'm back! Well, maybe...

Welcome back, Red!

This is about the same size and shape of entertainment center I built a year and a half ago out of maple veneer plywood. More shelves, fewer doors, but the general size and shape is similar, so I'd be happy to offer any advice/experience.

You can get both DVD rack materials and speaker grille cloth from Rockler. There's a Rockler store about 12mi. from me, which is nice, but you can order from their catalog or web site, too.

(Now that I finally have a digital camera, I should snap some pix of my unit and post them here)

Pablopsd- We are now exploring the option of having a local AV cabinetry company build them, $6500 or so for laminate, and $7500+ for hardwood. We have a couple of nice laminate pieces already and may decide that's acceptable if the finished can be matched. I have not deiced whether I can pull this off myself and may end up letting a pro do it. They are nice people, and are the company my local hi-fi store uses, so they came highly recommended. I have a meeting with them Tuesday to discuss it further, look at samples, etc but they will be able to design it in ways I would never know. Like a false back behind the components for wire management, etc. I may just bite the bullet and let them do it. The wife wants them to do it, so it's hard for me to say no. Just that $6500 on an entertainment system makes me wonder why I don't have a big plasma :) But my JVC 52" LCoS should be fine.

Kenlex- yea, I came across Rockler yesterday evening. They have everything I would need. Nice resource should I do this or something in the future. Which ever way I go, I'll be sure to post some pics, if only for the history and implementation of my design. Thanks for offering help, tho I may have set my goals too high on this one. We'll have to see how the meeting goes, but I may stick to smaller projects and let this fairly large one go to the pros.

Red...

Before you totally bite the bullet and fork over seven grand, consider (and don't laugh) going to Lowes or HD and talking to them about custom cabinets. Both places have custom order cabinets that go well beyond kitchens. They have 1/4" thick planning books that are available for the asking, but are not left out on the counters (usually).

You can spec a cabinet by the inch width and height, and it might be KraftMaid or Thomasville built depending on where you go. Supposedly, they also have "cabinet designers" on staff that you make an appointment with, and they'll actually come out to your house and see what you need and where you want to put it. Then they'll come back with a proposal or two. We ordered custom finished cherry doors from Lowes, and they are awesome. And yes, you can order complete cabinets, or doors/drawers, finished or unfinished. They have at least a hundred different finishes so matching should not be a problem. Bring a sample of what you want to match with you.

It's semi-custom, but I don't know how much more "custom" you'd need after looking at your drawing. Do yourself a favor and drive over to HD or Lowes and check this lead out. You might wind up spending half what you're talking about and the fit and finish of these cabinets is pretty darn good.

If SWMBO had OK'd $7000 for a cabinet project, Pablo or I would be adding to our tool collection :) and we'd give her change, but in your case, I don't think you have the shop or maybe you'd rather have someone else tackle this one.

IH- Yea, I have a garage :) I built a tv stand for my daughters room over the weekend just to gauge my level. What I learned was planning and cutting pieces is easy. Prepping/sanding the wood isn't as I gouged a little with my new belt sander. First time I've used a belt sander over my orbital sander so I will get better over time. The last thing is fastening the pieces together. What screws to use, how to hide them, using a pocket hole jig, better cuts, dowels, etc. If I had more experience with the fastening and prepping, I'd feel more comfortable, but I've never built anything half the size, much less the scope (doors, shelves, recessed lights, wire management, ventilation, etc. I'll have them present their idea and see their price, which will most likely be in the $6k-$6500k area I'm sure and see what happens. I just think building something this size is a little out of my league currently.

Red...

Try this link:

http://www.kraftmaid.com/rooms/index.cfm?navigationid=21600

http://www.thomasvillecabinetry.com/Specifications/OfficeCabinets_Accessories.asp

Now I'll admit their web sites leave a lot to be desired with regard to showing all the modular combinations that would easily build _your_ design, but if you get the books I mentioned, or sit with the cabinet guys at HD, they will piece it toether on their computer and print you out something along with giving you a price and a 100 finish choices.

Pocket Holes are a tough way to fasten anything IMHO. Bisquit joining is much easier, used with glue, corner clamps, and a nail gun. Screws are only used in hidden locations unless you want to counterbore and use wood plugs. BTW, a belt sander might be a bit much for any kind of finish work. Stick with a ROS unless you have major joint problems to even out.

IH- OK, I went by HD, gave them the basics, not actual exact measurements, but approximates for now just to get a quote. We'll see how it goes. Funny thing is, on Kraftmaid's site, they show freestanding towering media centers in the middle of the room. But the lady there, admittedly didn't know a lot about entertainment centers with Kraftmaid) said the until would come in sections, bottom, middle and top and that I'd have to wall mount them like a kitchen cabinet. So, I'm thinking that you'll see the 3 seems on the side. However, on their web site that's not the case. So hopefully, she just didn't know what she was talking about. I should get a quote from them today, my meeting with the custom AV guys is tomorrow.

Red...

She doesn't know squat. The guy I spoke to some months ago showed me in the catalog how he'd build a entertainment center quite easily with tall cabinets. She should have given you the "KraftMaid Ideabook" (check out page 74), and also "The Art of Kitchen Planning" which is deceptive, because it has more than kitchen cabinets inside. In the 2nd book, go to page 42 "Home Office/Furniture Cabinets" and there are a few pages of small and large components including 80" and 84" high cabinets (one piece). Further along in that book you can find "accessory" pieces including matching finished plywood. Lowes, for instance, sells ¼", ½", and ¾" finished cherry plywood that cabinet shops use for fillers and whatever. Cherry is one of 100 finishes available.

Now don't get me wrong... you may not be able to get _exactly_ the design you showed us, but I'd bet you could get so close, the LOYL would be extremely happy if you tell her you're saving some money.

IH,
So you don't want to go to Fla? LOL Hey I almost lost my new entertainment center today, before it was even finished. I lost a sump pump overnight, and with all the rain we had in the last 2 weeks... Anyway had 1-2" of water in the basement. Luckily I had the cabinet on cans for staining!! Would have had to build another!!

Pablo

Pablo...

I like the Keys, especially KW. But you couldn't get me to live in Florida for love or money. Christ, the national flag of Florida is a front view of a Caddy windshield with two bony hands on the steering wheel and a tuft of blue hair in the center. I'm getting to be an old fart, but I never want to mix it up with those shrunken folks down there, all fighting to get to the early-bird dinner places! Yikes! I'd rather stay up here an freeze every winter like a real man.

Iron- it sounds like you are stereotyping the entire state of Florida (all 8 hours long of it) as some retirement home. Ah, there are only 1-2 cities in the entire state with retirement communities that you describe. Florida has a few dozen cities, so you're missing the point on about 20 cities here.

I'll be sure to post pics of my unit once it's installed. It's not BYO, but it's custom from my design.

Sorry Red,
I have to agree with IH on this one. went down there and stayed at a friend condo, and I was going NUTS with traffic, lights and all the old people. Put me in New Hampshire with nothing to do but hike and bike and no people, and I would be happy! (Please keep in mind we are having a little fun here!) :p

Pablo

Hey Guys,
What is the weather like where you are? I have been using the pool all winter, here in Florida!
Yes depending where you visit the state there is a traffic problem and older folks, but its not our fault that they emigrated from the frozen steppes up north.:)
What does any of this have to do with TV stands ? Except that here we can work on them outside pretty much year round? It is a little difficult to fabricate and sand during a hurricane, but we don't have to worry about dust left on the surface if we have a 80 + mile wind blowing it clean.

Fred

I guess you don't have to invest in a dust recovery system either.

Pablo:D

Palbopsd- Traffic I can't comment on because that's an unfortunate byproduct of a million plus people commuting. As for the old people-where was this condo? That would explain everything depending on the city you visited. I'm in Orlando and I don't see many old people here. I grew up in Miami and there weren't many old people there. I lived in Gainesville and there's a majority of college kids there.

You're just not a big city boy I guess like I'm not much for hiking :)

Naples. Not like that is a big retirement community! LOL Just having fun Kid! That's the only problem with the internet! If you knew me, you would be laughing too!:D :D

Pablo

Hey, we have a Naples here in the West Coast with no hurricanes. Plus, it never rain in California!

Well, I finally completed my DIY stand. Here's a couple of pictures:

Right side view (http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php?photo=14473&size=big&sort=1&cat=500)
View from my seat (http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php?photo=14472&size=big&sort=1&cat=503)

I wanted a Salamander Triple 20, but didn't want to pay the price. I also didn't like some of their construction details. I was inspired by joeren who showed off his Salamander Triple 20 clone in this thread a few months ago. I did something similar, but made some interesting changes.

I wanted bullnosed edges, rounded corners, and hardwood rather than MDF. I also wanted the stand to be wider to accomodate my Ascend center channel, deeper to accomodate my receiver, and shorter by 2" to give me the optimal viewing height.

I made the center channel shelf flush with the front lip of the stand so the speaker wouldn't be in a cave. I also used Auralex MoPads to angle the speaker up to the listening position and decouple it from the stand which should diminish resonances. I actually prefer mounting the center above the TV, but the WAF factor changed all that. :D

I purchased the aluminum posts from tslots.com. I liked their look better than the other vendors I found because it has smooth outer edges rather than fluted edges. I bought the hardware from Salamander, and hardwood at a local dealer. I still have to make the doors to keep the kiddies out of my gear.

I finished it with Natural Danish Oil and a wipe on Poly topcoat. The project took me about 30-35 hours to complete over a month or so. I'm a novice, so I took my time and had some fun with it. I have about $350 into the stand, which is a lot easier to swallow than the $1600 price tag I was looking at for the Salamander with bells and whistles.

If anyone is interested in going this route, I would recommend using the Salamander hardware, as it's only a few dollars more expensive than ordering brackets from the tslot vendor and other hardware from McMaster. The Salamander top bolts and levelling feet extend much farther into the tubing than the stuff available from McMaster. That improves the stand's strength, but there is a price. You need to purchase an expensive (~$20) nut tap to tap the end holes deeper than a standard tap will go.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. Because of this thread, I was inspired to build my own stand, and I couldn't be happier with the result.

Swwweeeeettt stand jimsiff! For a self-described novice you do great work!!

Awesome stand jimsiff! Great job on it! How do you order Salamander hardware?

I agree whole heartedly with the previous posters, Ryansmith and Big Worms.
I also want to know how Jimsiff got the hardware. I am planning on doing the same thing.
Novice, HA!:) Beautiful work.
Regards,
Fred

Originally posted by Big Worms
Awesome stand jimsiff! Great job on it! How do you order Salamander hardware?

I ordered the hardware directly from Salamander because my local dealer wasn't interested in a chump change special order. I called their headquarters and told them I liked their design, but wanted to build my own version and my local dealer wasn't able to help me out. They were very helpful and willing to sell any parts to the stand including the aluminum posts.

The basic hardware kit was a good deal, but the door hinges, door lock kits, and posts are expensive. The hardware kit at $45 shipped included the top bolts, levelling feet, shelf pegs for three shelves, back panel t-nuts and studs, two wrenches, and a small level. I bit the bullet on the hinges and locks because I have a 1 year old. I found the posts for about $70 cut to length and shipped from tslots.com. They were $30 each (need 8) from Salamander.

If you want to put doors on one of these, you need the concealed hinges from Salamander to do it right. They're $30 / pair, and the door lock kit (great for toddlers :) ) is $25!!! each. There were other ways to attach doors, but I thought they all were serious compromises in one area or another. You could use glass panel doors with pivot pins and magnetic strikers, but the pivot pin hole would be drilled very close to the edge of the top and bottom pieces. I'd be worried about long term durability. Also, Rockler has concealed hinges that could mount to the top and bottom pieces, but they impede access to the bottom shelf and aren't made very well. T slot tubing manufacturers have various hinge designs, but they're all "industrial" looking and IMO not suited for the furniture look I was after.

Let me know if you have any other questions. It was a fun project.

Jimsniff,
Thank you for the information. I will call Salamander in a few minutes.
Regards,
Fred