DoubleDaz,
The 1.88 firmware is able to fix the DST shift. I guess you would be screwed if you took the DST shift into accound when you set a manual timed recording in anticipation of the one hour move earlier by DST.

I forgot that the problem is visible on the IPG NOT on the scheduled program list. The red highlight shows at where the program/timeslot used to be.


TerryB

I seem to have been ok with the DST shift in San Antonio. Our local Time Warner is using firmware 1.87.231. I really wish they would push out a newer version that gets rid of the "kick out to live tv" bug and the ability to watch from the beginning a show that is currently being recorded.

I called them today and they told me they'll get it out when they get it. Didn't give me very much confidence that they expected to be doing it any time soon.

If memory serves me correctly (which it often does not), you can record two programs and watch a third RECORDED program. The unit has two tuners, so in effect, you are using both for recording, and watching the third from the hard drive.

To those with more knowledge (or a better memory), is this correct?The unit actually has four tuners--two SD tuners, and two HD tuners. However, only two of them (in any combination) can be engaged at one time, so for all practical purposes it is reasonable to think of the box as having only two tuners.

Not true, as I explained there's a trick. In the situation described, if you start a recorded program, you can then tune a different channel without the message popping up.

The 8300HD has supposedly 2 tuners, but you can record 2 programs at the same time and watch a third channel or recording. I think there's actually 3 tuners, otherwise, I don't know how they do it. It's quite cool actually.In the 17 months that this box has been on the street, you are the first (and only) person I've ever seen claim to be able to use three tuners simultaneously. Forgive me for being incredulous.

April Fool's Day was Saturday, not today. What gives?

The unit actually has four tuners--two SD tuners, and two HD tuners. However, only two of them (in any combination) can be engaged at one time, so for all practical purposes it is reasonable to think of the box as having only two tuners.

That's what I remember! :)

Hey Jim,
Where did you get this? AFAIK there are two tuners. QAM 256 is used to transmit Speed channel SD and HBO HD. Only the data is different, not the data packet.

TerryB

The 1.88 firmware is able to fix the DST shift. I guess you would be screwed if you took the DST shift into accound when you set a manual timed recording in anticipation of the one hour move earlier by DST.Here's the scenario:

Before DST, the program is on a cable network, like Fox News, from 6:00-7:00 MST.

After DST, the program is now on from 5:00-6:00 MST (we don't change times in Arizona).

If I look at the IPG a few days before DST, say Thursday, I will see the program on starting at 6:00 on Friday, but it will be on starting at 5:00 Monday-Wednesday of the following week.

Are you saying that if I set up a timeslot recording for 6:00-7:00 before DST, 1.88.x.x will change it to 5:00-6:00 after DST? Timeslots will be correctly highlighted? I won't have to cancel the 6:00-7:00 and reschedule the 5:00-6:00?

I doubt that is the case, but if it is, what happens if the program is on a local channel where the broadcast times don't change like the cable networks? Unfortunately, it's too late to test it, but I'll try to remember when the rest of the country falls back.

This is the only scheduled recording I had to change.

Where did you get this? AFAIK there are two tuners. QAM 256 is used to transmit Speed channel SD and HBO HD. Only the data is different, not the data packet.There are 4 tuners, 2 each for analog and digital in order to be able to PIP 2 analog, 2 digitals, or 1 of each. One of th 8300 PDFs downloaded from SA specifically states DUAL analog and digital tuners for true PIP capability.

There are 4 tuners, 2 each for analog and digital in order to be able to PIP 2 analog, 2 digitals, or 1 of each. One of th 8300 PDFs downloaded from SA specifically states DUAL analog and digital tuners for true PIP capability.Whoops, that's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion--that's me muddling the distinction between analog vs.. SD digital vs. HD digital in my head.

Thanks for the correction!

DoubleDaz,
The network program will move in the great sceme of time in the universe. So no matter what firmware you have I think you would need to fix it. I think. (I thought that DST was observed everywhere except Indiana/Michigan somewhere.) Learn something every day.

Regarding tuners, does the PDF actually say two analog and two digital tuners or is it two tuners capable of analog or digital mode? The diag screens only ever show state of two tuners.

regards,

TerryB

Regarding tuners, does the PDF actually say two analog and two digital tuners or is it two tuners capable of analog or digital mode? The diag screens only ever show state of two tuners.Well, shoot. I can't seem to find anything from SA that says there are four tuners, and I can't remember for sure if I read that in SA literature or in posts here.

I did find some literature on the 8000HD, and it implies that there are only two tuners that are each capable of both analog and digital tuning. It can be found here: http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/4004400.pdf. It's probably reasonable to assume the 8300HD is similar.

We may be arguing semantics, though. Analog signals are very different from digital signals, and while you might be able to draw a box on a schematic diagram and label it "tuner", internal to that box there must be separate circuitry for demodulating the analog signal vs. the digital signal, and the analog signal will also need to be routed through an A->D capture / MPEG encoder module that the digital signal can bypass. Whether you call that "one" or "two" tuners is probably somewhat a matter of opinion.

Functionally, it certainly makes more sense that there are only two "tuner" boxes on that schematic each with a single input and a single output. That makes it more understandable why a user can only tune/record two different programs simultaneously rather than two analog programs plus two digital programs, as might be possible if there were truly four completely independent tuners in there.

Regarding tuners, does the PDF actually say two analog and two digital tuners or is it two tuners capable of analog or digital mode? The diag screens only ever show state of two tuners.The PDF states DUAL analog and digital tuners to allow true PIP capability of all channels. And I know I saw a spec sheet early on when the 8000 came out that specifically said 2 analog tuners and 2 digital tuners. However, that spec sheet is no longer available and they are now using the more ambiguous language in the first sentence.

I agree with jruhnke that it is probably more a matter of semantics and I seriously doubt you can open the box and find 4 separate tuners to pull out. My guess is the analog and digital tuning capability is probably built into a single chipset and the tuned signal goes through analogor digital decoding circuitry before it gets output.

Well, shoot. I can't seem to find anything from SA that says there are four tuners, and I can't remember for sure if I read that in SA literature or in posts here.

It has TWO tuners, not 3, not 4:

http://www.sciatl.com/consumers_new/CableBoxes/8300hd.htm

The PDF states DUAL analog and digital tuners to allow true PIP capability of all channels. And I know I saw a spec sheet early on when the 8000 came out that specifically said 2 analog tuners and 2 digital tuners. However, that spec sheet is no longer available and they are now using the more ambiguous language in the first sentence.

I agree with jruhnke that it is probably more a matter of semantics and I seriously doubt you can open the box and find 4 separate tuners to pull out. My guess is the analog and digital tuning capability is probably built into a single chipset and the tuned signal goes through analogor digital decoding circuitry before it gets output.

Just to refine Dave's point a little further:

If we take the term "tuner" back to the early days of radio it was a adjustable LC circuit (usually a fixed coil & variable capacitor) to "tune" specific radio stations. These early "crystal" radios had a crystal detector to convert the amplitude modulated RF to audio.

Since that time reception equipment has become much more sophisticated and tuner has often been taken to mean the whole package. But the need remains in any reception device to first separate (tune) the RF signal of interest from the rest of the spectrum. Hence, there are 2 TUNERS each followed by its own demodulators (in this case one NTSC analog and one QAM digital), processing, etc.

On the subject of multiple tuners, is there a way to pause live TV and switch tuners to channels surf? I am a DirecTiVo convert and my wife can't stand the fact that she can't switch tuners. It was so easy to pause live TV and switch tuners to channel surf, then switch back. I tried doing the same with the SA8300HD using the PIP, but when I paused the video and swapped it, the video would unpause. I'm away from my TV so I can't tell what software version it is using.

I've skimmed through this thread, but there seems to be no commercial skip :mad: or 15 minute advance :mad:. I guess that I'll just have to hope that the Cablecard TiVo hits shelves this year.

Not true, as I explained there's a trick. In the situation described, if you start a recorded program, you can then tune a different channel without the message popping up.

The 8300HD has supposedly 2 tuners, but you can record 2 programs at the same time and watch a third channel or recording. I think there's actually 3 tuners, otherwise, I don't know how they do it. It's quite cool actually.

I actually tested your method of tuning a different channel after I started a recorded program and I got the same message popping up. It wouldn't allow me to record two shows and watch another live show.

Houston Time Warner Cable
SA Explorer 8300 HD
SARA 1.87.16.a104

I have paused a recording I was watching, used the channel up button to go to channel 1 (NY1) then channel surfed or programed recordings. I then enter channel 1000 via the number pad (I do not use the DVR button) and come back to the paused play back.
Let me say this happens most of the time, there are sometimes it doesn't work.
I should add I'm running 1.88 dot something on an 8300HD.

I have paused a recording I was watching, used the channel up button to go to channel 1 (NY1) then channel surfed or programed recordings. I then enter channel 1000 via the number pad (I do not use the DVR button) and come back to the paused play back.
Let me say this happens most of the time, there are sometimes it doesn't work.You can program new recordings just fine even if both tuners are currently "occupied". But while you may have *thought* you were channel surfing while two programs were already recording, I don't think that's really what was happening.

My guess is that either one of the recordings had completed and you didn't realize it, so that one of the tuners freed up, or perhaps you accidentally disabled one of the recordings somehow and were then able to use that tuner...

My HD8300 running SARA 1.87.4.3 on Time Warner, Beaumont area has developed a problem. During the recording of a program if I try to play back another show, previously recorded, it locks up, all controls are inactive and after a few minutes it reboots. I've tried hard reboots and nothing helps. If I'm recording, I can't play back a different program.

I also have an external Seagate SATA harddrive. Time Warner has agreed to exchange the unit.

My question is ( I assume no one can solve my problem) if I exchange the unit will I still be able to access the programs on the external Hard drive?

Help will be really appreciated. Thank you in advance

Tom

My understanding is no. The information on the hard drive is "keyed" to a specific set top box, so a different STB would not be able to decode.

My HD8300 running SARA 1.87.4.3 on Time Warner, Beaumont area has developed a problem. During the recording of a program if I try to play back another show, previously recorded, it locks up, all controls are inactive and after a few minutes it reboots. I've tried hard reboots and nothing helps. If I'm recording, I can't play back a different program.

I also have an external Seagate SATA harddrive. Time Warner has agreed to exchange the unit.

My question is ( I assume no one can solve my problem) if I exchange the unit will I still be able to access the programs on the external Hard drive?

Help will be really appreciated. Thank you in advance

Tom

Before you do that, make sure that you try a HARD REBOOT (unplug power, wait 30 sec or more, unplug power to HD, wait another 30 sec., plug power to HD back in, wait another 30 sec, then WHILE HOLDING DOWN THE POWER BUTTON, plug power cord of 8300 back in, contie to hold POWER until "go around" appears.

Dave,

I've done that at least half a dozen times. But, thanks for the suggestion.

Tom

When I start to run out of space, I'd like to know what to get rid of that'd give me the biggest "bang for the buck."

Is there any way to determine the amount of HD space that a given program takes up?

(I suppose it'd be just as good to be able to determine whether a saved program is SD or HD.....would that work and can it be done?)

When I start to run out of space, I'd like to know what to get rid of that'd give me the biggest "bang for the buck."

Is there any way to determine the amount of HD space that a given program takes up?

(I suppose it'd be just as good to be able to determine whether a saved program is SD or HD.....would that work and can it be done?)Well, in general, HD programs take up 3-4 times the space of SD programs of the same duration, so that's always going to be where the best "bang for the buck" comes from.

As for knowing which programs are HD and which aren't, the SARA software does not indicate that when you're browsing the recorded programs list. You pretty much either need to remember where particular programs came from, or else you need to play the recording and see what format it's in.

Now that you bring it up, I agree that including information on the program format and/or the channel the program was recorded from would definitely be an improvement in the user interface. Personally, though, I've never thought much about that lack of information, since I generally can remember which programs came from HD channels and which didn't.

Well, in general, HD programs take up 3-4 times the space of SD programs of the same duration, so that's always going to be where the best "bang for the buck" comes from.

As for knowing which programs are HD and which aren't, the SARA software does not indicate that when you're browsing the recorded programs list. You pretty much either need to remember where particular programs came from, or else you need to play the recording and see what format it's in.

Now that you bring it up, I agree that including information on the program format and/or the channel the program was recorded from would definitely be an improvement in the user interface. Personally, though, I've never thought much about that lack of information, since I generally can remember which programs came from HD channels and which didn't.

Good point....I completely forgot that that little light indicates an HD program. (I sit so far away that I can't see what it says....)

Kind of a pain, but better than nothing!!

NEW QUESTION: Do all one hour HD programs take up the same amount of HD space???????

How about analog vs. digital programs???

thnx

I've noticed that the diagnostic screens show the QAM frequency for the current channel tuned into. Does the QAM subchannel show anywhere? Also, is there a way to change the QAM subchannel manually? I've read some posts about doing this in Passport and was wondering if these features are maybe hidden somewhere in SARA.

One thing as far as deleting programs to get space back - the space used depends on the bandwidth of the original broadcast as well. In deleting programs from several channels, typically CBS HD seems to use the most space. I guess you could check in the diagnostics while recording, but am not sure if that would give you a clear indication.

NEW QUESTION: Do all one hour HD programs take up the same amount of HD space???????No ... depends on the bit rate being used. For me, as an example, NBC-HD and CBS-HD take up (significantly) more space than Fox-HD. Discovery-HD takes up alot ... TNT-HD and Universal-HD not so much. Etc. Your mileage will vary depending on what your local cable plant / stations are doing.How about analog vs. digital programs???In general, analog SD programs will take up more space (and usually quite a bit more) than digital SD programs. HD takes up more space than analog or digital SD.

Digital SD - least space
Analog SD - more
Digital HD - most space

Originally Posted by philherz
NEW QUESTION: Do all one hour HD programs take up the same amount of HD space???????

No ... depends on the bit rate being used. For me, as an example, NBC-HD and CBS-HD take up (significantly) more space than Fox-HD. Discovery-HD takes up alot ... TNT-HD and Universal-HD not so much. Etc. Your mileage will vary depending on what your local cable plant / stations are doing.

VERY interesting! Just curious, if there's no easy way to see the space that any one program takes up, how did you come to this conclusion? Record something and check available space before & after??

Good point....I completely forgot that that little light indicates an HD program. (I sit so far away that I can't see what it says....)Not trying to be cheeky, ... if [generic you] are running low on space, and need the indicator light because [you] cannot immediately tell apart SD/HD from watching, why not record most of it in SD?

v/r,
C-F

VERY interesting! Just curious, if there's no easy way to see the space that any one program takes up, how did you come to this conclusion? Record something and check available space before & after??Yup ... deleting / recording things from certain channels seems to always free up (or take up) more/less space than others.

Also, I seem to recall a screen in the diagnostic mode that gives you a rough idea of bit rate ... but I don't go into the diagnostic screens that often so ... hard to recall.

Not trying to be cheeky, ... if [generic you] are running low on space, and need the indicator light because [you] cannot immediately tell apart SD/HD from watching, why not record most of it in SD?

v/r,
C-F

I can readily see the difference between an HD program and a SD program and I think that's the reason I've never even noticed the little HD light on the 8300 that would light up.

Although the difference is pretty easy to spot, in order to save space, I've switched most of my recording to the SD signal unless it's a show that will be significantly better in HD.

I find it very unappealing to transfer programs over to the VCR anymore!

Anyone with a DVD recorder find it decent until the HD-DVD recorders come out and get a reasonable price?????

I can't imagine not knowing whether a program I recorded is SD or HD; it's not like there is a great abundance of HD programming. But that's just me. Unless they're recording some things in SD that are also in HD (don't know why someone would do that but someone just said that they do - ???). I imagine when more than one person in the house is using the recorder it could get confusing.

[QUOTE=philherz]I can readily see the difference between an HD program and a SD program and I think that's the reason I've never even noticed the little HD light on the 8300 that would light up.QUOTE]

Don't feel bad - I've never noticed it either. Does it light up when recording, playing back or both?

Just curious, if there's no easy way to see the space that any one program takes up, how did you come to this conclusion? Record something and check available space before & after??No, there is not. As has been said, it all depends on the bitrate and this varies by channel as well as individual program. Here in Phoenix 1 channel (CBS) broadcasts as high as 17.9 Mbps, while another (ABC) is around 15.0, and the others (NBC/FOX) are between 12.0 and 14.0 or so. I've never seen a diagnostics screen that displays bitrate, but those who capture this stuff with PC cards have posted some TSReader bitrate info here. (http://members.cox.net/jginaz/) Of course, this is only for what they captured in the Phoenix market, so the numbers may not be close to those in your market and may not even reflect current broadcast rates here. For example, CBS has begun multicasting, so they went from 17.9 down to 14.3 and CBS recordings now require less space.

I can readily see the difference ... in order to save space, I've switched most of my recording to the SD signal unless it's a show that will be significantly better in HD... unappealing to transfer programs over to the VCR...OK, glad you did not take it the wrong way.

On the VCR/DVD front, I really liked the Pioneer Voyager HD STB because I could send a [SQUEEZED] HD image to the composite out. On my [32" 4:3 CRT] TV that picture was pretty close to the HD feed, and much better than the SD channels. I was able to record that to the VCR -- and upon playback, set the TV to [WIDE] bringing it back to the correct aspect ratio (letterboxed - but like all 16:9 signals on that TV).

I would not give up the DVR, but I wish the SA boxes had that ability and clarity in the HD->SD conversion.

v/r,
C-F

Yes and I noticed that the fast forward function is not as smooth as before.

I too was surprised to see the 4th speed added. This is "super" fast now . . . I go to skip thru the commercials and wind up skipping thru the rest of the program if I take my eyes off of it!

Wonder when they will get around to moving up the 2 speed "on demand
" programs?

I'm going to have to exchange my time Warner SA HD8300 and I have an external SATA Seagate 300 GB drive. Will I have to reformate the SATA drive, or will it just start working when I go through the start up routine. If so, how do I do it. I can't find a manual. Help will be appreciated.

Thanks.

Tom

I'm going to have to exchange my time Warner SA HD8300 and I have an external SATA Seagate 300 GB drive. Will I have to reformate the SATA drive, or will it just start working when I go through the start up routine. Yes, and yes.

The data currently on your external drive will not be accessible when you connect it to the new 8300HD. You'll have to reformat the drive before it can be used again.

When you connect the drive to your new 8300HD, you should see a message asking if you want to format the drive. Push the correct button to start the format process, and in a couple of minutes, you'll get another message telling you the drive is now ready for use. You should be back in business.

Thanks so much. I was aware that I lose everything I've now recorder, but I've been busy transferring to another DVD-r Where I can watch it at my leisure. It won't be HD but at least I won't lose it. Thanks again.

Tom

A similar question was just asked in the "8300HD + external SATA" thread, and I posted a couple of screen-grabs from the user manual, if you're interested: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7456347#post7456347

Also, if you'd like to see the manual, it's available on the Scientific Atlanta website. You have to sign up for the "Explorer Club", but it's free, and I haven't gotten any noticeable spam as a result. It's here: http://www.scientificatlanta.com/explorerclub/default.asp

A similar question was just asked in the "8300HD + external SATA" thread, and I posted a couple of screen-grabs from the user manual, if you're interested: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7456347#post7456347

Also, if you'd like to see the manual, it's available on the Scientific Atlanta website. You have to sign up for the "Explorer Club", but it's free, and I haven't gotten any noticeable spam as a result. It's here: http://www.scientificatlanta.com/explorerclub/default.asp

Thanks very much.

Deleting only a portion of a recording. Does anyone know how this can be done?

Deleting only a portion of a recording. Does anyone know how this can be done?

No

I too was surprised to see the 4th speed added. This is "super" fast now . . . I go to skip thru the commercials and wind up skipping thru the rest of the program if I take my eyes off of it!

Wonder when they will get around to moving up the 2 speed "on demand
" programs?

I don't have said 4th speed, which is your company?

Deleting only a portion of a recording. Does anyone know how this can be done?Fact: Not possible with current software.
Personal opinion: Not likely to be added anytime soon.

Wouldn't this be similar to deleting part of a file on a PC? How would you even do that?!?

Wouldn't this be similar to deleting part of a file on a PC? How would you even do that?!?
My SD DVR/DVD burner has built in editing. It is fairly rudimentary but quite effective. It allows you to delete out sections of a program (commercials or whatever) or split the program into as many sections as you want, then delete the sections you don't want. I don't know how it is done but it can be done. Of course, it was made to complete in the consumer market where customers have choices. Unfortunately, with the CableCo's you either take what they have or nothing.

As stated above, the chances of this happening with the 8300 are next to nonexistent. I'd settle for not being kicked out to live programming when a recording ends or a way to get to the middle of a 4 hour recording (like when you get kicked out to live in the middle of a 4 hour sporting event) without having to slog your way back through 120 minutes at 32X. Ugh.

As stated above, the chances of this happening with the 8300 are next to nonexistent. I'd settle for not being kicked out to live programming when a recording ends or a way to get to the middle of a 4 hour recording (like when you get kicked out to live in the middle of a 4 hour sporting event) without having to slog your way back through 120 minutes at 32X. Ugh.

Ain't that the truth...

Wouldn't this be similar to deleting part of a file on a PC? How would you even do that?!?No, it's actually Video Editing and it's done all the time to put home movies on DVD, etc. It will almost never be part of a DVR though, but I'm sure there are ways to get the file to a PC for editing with the right software. I know you can capture to a PC and extract individual sceens, but I don't know that there is any editing software yet to allow you to extract parts of an HD recording and save them for playback.

I would like to thank all of you who have provided so much help. I finally figured out how to overcome all the difficulties with my SA HD8300 DVD-R and the miserable SARA software provided by TW– I’m going to return the son-of-a-bitch to Time Warner. I’ve ordered DirectTV’s HD TIVO, and except for the $499 bucks for a permanent lease, will actually be a few dollars cheaper than I am now paying Time Warner. The interest I’m losing on this investment only amounts to about $2.30 per month.

This leaves me with a 300 gig Seagate SATA hard drive plus the enclosure and the special cable. Is anybody interested in acquiring same from me?

Again, my thanks for all the help.

Tom

No, it's actually Video Editing and it's done all the time to put home movies on DVD, etc. It will almost never be part of a DVR though, but I'm sure there are ways to get the file to a PC for editing with the right software. I know you can capture to a PC and extract individual sceens, but I don't know that there is any editing software yet to allow you to extract parts of an HD recording and save them for playback.

Ah, I get it. But, video editing is pretty processing intensive, isn't it? This seems out of the league of a set-top box...

Ah, I get it. But, video editing is pretty processing intensive, isn't it? This seems out of the league of a set-top box...The processor-intensive portion of "video editing" is when you change the format of the video. Converting between different resolutions, encodings (MPEG2/DivX/WMV, etc.), frame rates, etc. involves a lot of math, and can take a long time even with a high-power rig.

Deleting portions of a video file without changing anything else is pretty simple by comparison. It's certainly within the capabilities of any device that's capable of playback, fast-forward, and fast rewind of video, like a DVR.

The processor-intensive portion of "video editing" is when you change the format of the video. Converting between different resolutions, encodings (MPEG2/DivX/WMV, etc.), frame rates, etc. involves a lot of math, and can take a long time even with a high-power rig.

Deleting portions of a video file without changing anything else is pretty simple by comparison. It's certainly within the capabilities of any device that's capable of playback, fast-forward, and fast rewind of video, like a DVR.

I'll buy that...

Deleting portions of a video file without changing anything else is pretty simple by comparison. It's certainly within the capabilities of any device that's capable of playback, fast-forward, and fast rewind of video, like a DVR.

Yes, but you just can't simply delete a frame or two of a MPEG file. Because one frame is dependent on another (I frames, P frames and B frames) it is not just a matter of chopping out what you don't want.

Yes, but you just can't simply delete a frame or two of a MPEG file. Because one frame is dependent on another (I frames, P frames and B frames) it is not just a matter of chopping out what you don't want.
You can do this if the device understands frame accurate editing. As long as you just edit on the key frames this is possbile.

I do quite a bit of video editing but I mosting work with AVI which I believe are made up of all key frames, but recently someone in another forum pointed me to Womble that will allow you to edit DVD compatible MPEGs without re-encoding. I have not tried it yet but it looks pretty interestting.

That's good.

Some people use double connection from 8300 to a TV to avoid limitations of stretch modes for 4:3 content. One connection for HD content via component and one for SD via composite/S-Video. This way you switch input on a TV for SD contents and keep stretch active for that input. Not so sure if this tip is valuable enough to be included in Tips & Tricks.

Will
I currently have an older non-DVR HD box that allows me to do exactly this (use the Component and S-Video outputs simultaneously). Thing is, I tried going to the SA 8000 HD and this would not work, it was either one or the other which does not work for my setup. Just to be clear (I went crazy with my cable company on this one) the new SD 8300 HD will allow me to do this? Also, if only 2 outputs work at one time, how will the unit know which 2 to use?

The older 8000 will not allow simultaneous output, but the 8300 outputs composite, S-vid, and component at the same time.

as long as the 8300HD is in HD mode, composite output 2 and s-video are always outputting a picture. Full screen 4:3 for SD and letterboxed for HD channels. Changing stretch/zoom modes on the 8300HD (like when you press #) does not affect the composite or s-video output unless the box is in SD mode.

Looks like my software has just been upgraded on the SA8300. My new version is now 1.88.17.a100. I checked it after I noticed the extra FF speed. I also checked my 1394 copy protection changed to read DHCP. I haven't tried recording but I did play back to another monitor through my component output of my DVHS 30K. Seems like I now have a lot more picture breakup that before. It is still very watchable but would be very annoying. I would not bother to record with these flaws. I don't record much anymore to tape anyway.

I've had a problem with my HDMI connection now for about 2 to 3 months. I had to switch to using component.
I tried to get a new box and now TW is telling me it will be another month until they have them in stock. The new software now tells me that my set is not HDCP compatible and that the HDMI is blocked. It didn't tell me this before but it just quit working. I don't know if its my projector or the box but I can't see a lot of difference in picture quality between component and HDMI.

One other problem I have one program on the recorded menu that I can't access. This seemed to happen about the same time my software upgrade occurred but it may just be a coincidence. I have an extenal SATA drive and am not sure which drive it is recorded on. It was a 1 hour show and it list one hour as the recorded time but when you select it, it doesn't come up. I have about 1/2 of my recorded space used and everything else works.

sorry for the newb question, but when it says send to VCR in my dvr, can I just hook up a dvd burner and send it there? In other words, is there a way I can burn the stuff saved on my dvr? or do I need to get a dvd burner and send the signal to it so it can store and then burn my shows? thanks

I have searched this long thread and found nothing on this issue, so please forvige me if it has already been posted.

I have my 8300HD hooked up to my Panasonic TH50PX60U via HDMI. When I first power on the TV and try to press the "List" button to check the recorded channels, The TV gets a blip and looses its signal for a couple of seconds. It does not happen the second time that I hit the "list" button or thereafter. Also, this only happens when I first power on the TV and the cable box is already on (i.e. if the cable box is off and the TV is on, it does not happen when I power on the cable box). Also, I have tried component and the problem does not exist over component.

Please help...Is there something wrong with my new TV?

I have searched this long thread and found nothing on this issue, so please forvige me if it has already been posted.

I have my 8300HD hooked up to my Panasonic TH50PX60U via HDMI. When I first power on the TV and try to press the "List" button to check the recorded channels, The TV gets a blip and looses its signal for a couple of seconds. It does not happen the second time that I hit the "list" button or thereafter. Also, this only happens when I first power on the TV and the cable box is already on (i.e. if the cable box is off and the TV is on, it does not happen when I power on the cable box). Also, I have tried component and the problem does not exist over component.

Please help...Is there something wrong with my new TV?

there is nothing wrong with your TV. HDMI is really flakey and you are experiencing some kind of HDCP (copy protection) error.

so what can be done?

I just noticed that it is not just the "List" button that causes this, if I press the "Settings" button twice to enter the menu, it happens as well (but only the first time the TV is powered on).

One other problem I have one program on the recorded menu that I can't access. This seemed to happen about the same time my software upgrade occurred but it may just be a coincidence. I have an extenal SATA drive and am not sure which drive it is recorded on. It was a 1 hour show and it list one hour as the recorded time but when you select it, it doesn't come up. I have about 1/2 of my recorded space used and everything else works.Have you tried a reboot (pull power cord to the STB, repower, and try again after it comes back up)? I've never seen this problem for a single program, but I *have* seen this problem for groups of programs (my guess was it was all programs on the external drive, but I have no way to know that), and a reboot fixed the problem.

sorry for the newb question, but when it says send to VCR in my dvr, can I just hook up a dvd burner and send it there? In other words, is there a way I can burn the stuff saved on my dvr? or do I need to get a dvd burner and send the signal to it so it can store and then burn my shows? thanksThe "send to VCR" function simply takes the show you selected and plays it back via the "OUT 2" output of the 8300HD--left/right audio and composite video--without affecting the normal operations of the DVR (i.e., you can continue watching live TV or a different recorded program while dumping a completely different program to the OUT 2 jacks). You can have *anything* connected to those outputs--it doesn't have to be a VCR. It could be a TV, or a camcorder, or a DVD recorder, or anything else that can accept a composite video signal.

Note, however, that some versions of SARA software corrupt the video being shipped out the OUT 2 jack during "copy to VCR" playback. You might be disappointed with the quality of your recording if you have one of the software versions with this problem.

One workaround is to use the S-video output (assuming your DVD recorder has an S-video input), and then just use normal playback to transfer the program. (As an added bonus, you could fast-forward through some of the commercials as you transferred the show, if you wanted to...)

The "send to VCR" function simply takes the show you selected and plays it back via the "OUT 2" output of the 8300HD--left/right audio and composite video--without affecting the normal operations of the DVR (i.e., you can continue watching live TV or a different recorded program while dumping a completely different program to the OUT 2 jacks). You can have *anything* connected to those outputs--it doesn't have to be a VCR. It could be a TV, or a camcorder, or a DVD recorder, or anything else that can accept a composite video signal.

Note, however, that some versions of SARA software corrupt the video being shipped out the OUT 2 jack during "copy to VCR" playback. You might be disappointed with the quality of your recording if you have one of the software versions with this problem.

One workaround is to use the S-video output (assuming your DVD recorder has an S-video input), and then just use normal playback to transfer the program. (As an added bonus, you could fast-forward through some of the commercials as you transferred the show, if you wanted to...)


good stuff! thanks a lot. :)

Note, however, that some versions of SARA software corrupt the video being shipped out the OUT 2 jack during "copy to VCR" playback. You might be disappointed with the quality of your recording if you have one of the software versions with this problem.

After several months of this exact problem caused by a SARA update, TWC-Greensboro finally updated SARA again (to 1.87.27.1), and the problem is now fixed here.

After several months of this exact problem caused by a SARA update, TWC-Greensboro finally updated SARA again (to 1.87.27.1), and the problem is now fixed here.


what connection do you use then to export the stuff from the dvr to, I assume, a dvd recorder? also, how is the quality? I guess, perhaps, I should look into a better way to record my tv shows to dvd. I'd be happy with the quality of most torrents of tv shows like The Office or Arrested Development.

After several months of this exact problem caused by a SARA update, TWC-Greensboro finally updated SARA again (to 1.87.27.1), and the problem is now fixed here.

Thanks for the info,I'll have to check this and make sure. I've been waiting for the fix to come thru. Any other changes?

Have you tried a reboot (pull power cord to the STB, repower, and try again after it comes back up)? Just to clarify a bit, there are TWO reboot procedures and they do different things.

The "warm" reboot is accomplished simply by unplugging/replugging the power cord. It will solve a multitude of problems, but certainly not all.

The "hard" reboot is accomplished by unplugging the unit, then pressing/holding the Power button, while replugging the power cord back in. This procedure has solved problems that a warm reboot did not and should be tried when all else fails.

I believe the reason some folks say to leave the unit unplugged for up to 1/2 hour is to make sure there has been some attempt at communication with the headend. I think it's similar to making sure a capacitor is discharged before messing with the electronics in some devices or the latent power may shock you. :)

what connection do you use then to export the stuff from the dvr to, I assume, a dvd recorder? also, how is the quality? I guess, perhaps, I should look into a better way to record my tv shows to dvd. I'd be happy with the quality of most torrents of tv shows like The Office or Arrested Development.
You need to use the OUT2 coming from the DVR. OUT2 has a composite and S-Video connection and a set of RCA L-R Audio jacks.

However a mentioned above the "Copy to VCR" function which outputs to OUT2 is broken on some firmware versions. You can try this ahead of time by just watching the Copy to VCR output on a monitor. You will know right away if there is a problem because there are jagged lines through the picture.

One "trick" to maximize DVD quality from a HD recording is to record it in 16x9 forma. To do this:
1) DO NOT use "Copy to VCR" mode - connect DVR-R with S-Video.
2) Go to set up wizzard (Power off, push both Info & Guide buttons on front panel)
3) Select 480i (press A)
4) Turn 8300 on
5) Press "#" key to get stretch mode (will squeeze image).
6) Set DVD recorder to record 16x9 image & record.

When done, run the set-up wizard again to restore 8300 to normal HD mode.

Thanks to ReplayJanitor, who published this awhile ago.

One "trick" to maximize DVD quality from a HD recording is to record it in 16x9 forma. To do this:
1) DO NOT use "Copy to VCR" mode - connect DVR-R with S-Video.
2) Go to set up wizzard (Power off, push both Info & Guide buttons on front panel)
3) Select 480i (press A)
4) Turn 8300 on
5) Press "#" key to get stretch mode (will squeeze image).
6) Set DVD recorder to record 16x9 image & record.

When done, run the set-up wizard again to restore 8300 to normal HD mode.

Thanks to ReplayJanitor, who published this awhile ago.
Very interesting tip!

Question on #3, are you saying select 480i only. I already have 1080i, 480p & 480i selected.

Question on #5, will this cut off any portion of the picture?

Thanks!

Very interesting tip!

Question on #3, are you saying select 480i only. I already have 1080i, 480p & 480i selected.

Question on #5, will this cut off any portion of the picture?

Thanks!

#3: Yes, you are putting the entire box into the SD mode so everything is converted to SD (480i). That's the only way to get the box to let you squeeze the picture (which is what you want to make an anamorphic DVD).

#5: No, it only squeezes it.

Try it, you'll like it :)

#3: Yes, you are putting the entire box into the SD mode so everything is converted to SD (480i). That's the only way to get the box to let you squeeze the picture (which is what you want to make an anamorphic DVD).

#5: No, it only squeezes it.

Try it, you'll like it :)
As it turns out I happen to have one particular recording I really need to have at a 4:3 aspect ratio for later editing. I was just going to correct it on the PC but this may be a better solution. Sounds like a hassle to do all the time but will be useful for certain cases.

As soon as I get done with the recording in progress I will give it a try.

I was thinking of just telling the 8300 that I had a 4:3 display while I copied to the DVD recorder and was wondering it this would do the same thing.

Thanks again.

I have tried this little trick of setting to 480i but I see no difference. I am actually working through this in another thread in the DVD Recorder section, but the 8300 appears to already be doing the proper letterboxing for my DVD Recorder (Pio 633). No matter what I do the output looks the same even if I change the 16:9 flags on the DVD, because the 8300 is already taking care of the aspect.

I have noticed that I lose a small amount of video on the left side when I go from 1080i ---- > 480i.

VideoRoy, make sure you're connecting the S-Video on the 8300HD to your DVD recorder. An alternative to this if you don't have an S-Video cable is to hook up the 8300HD's Y output to the DVD recorder's composite input. OUT2 on the 8300HD will always letterbox widescreen programming.

Put an HD widescreen show on and when you set the 8300HD to Stretch 480i (pressing #), the top and bottom black bars should disappear. You will get a widescreen picture squeezed to 4:3.

VideoRoy, make sure you're connecting the S-Video on the 8300HD to your DVD recorder. An alternative to this if you don't have an S-Video cable is to hook up the 8300HD's Y output to the DVD recorder's composite input. OUT2 on the 8300HD will always letterbox widescreen programming.

Put an HD widescreen show on and when you set the 8300HD to Stretch 480i (pressing #), the top and bottom black bars should disappear. You will get a widescreen picture squeezed to 4:3.
I am using the OUT2 S-Video connection to my recorder and I am NOT using "Copy to VCR". When I tried this it did not seem to make any difference and when I hit # it expanded but I do loose some of the picture. Not sure what is different with my setup.

Are you saying that if I use a different output other than OUT2 this method will work properly?

As a side note TWC recently had a free preview of Showtime HD and I recorded a program from there in 1080i. The resulting disc plays full screen on my 16:9 & 4:3 TVs with no alterations. I believe the same thing was true on the HBO HD free weekend. In fact I do not even have to record anything since I can preview what the result will look like when it passes throught the DVD Recorder to the TV.

One other note I forgot. On the DVDs I create that are letterboxed if I hit the expand button on my 16:9 TV not the cable box, the black bars disappear and the aspect ratio looks correct with no loss of picture (besides what little bit I lost initially).

I am using the OUT2 S-Video connection to my recorder and I am NOT using "Copy to VCR". When I tried this it did not seem to make any difference and when I hit # it expanded but I do loose some of the picture. Not sure what is different with my setup.

It sounds to me that you did not put the cable box in the SD mode in the Set-Up Wizard. If the box thinks you have a HD set the first push of the # key will be just a zoom. If it is in the SD only mode (- Button "A" in the wizard) the first push of # will give you the stretch mode (nothing cut off) on the S-Video out.

It sounds to me that you did not put the cable box in the SD mode in the Set-Up Wizard. If the box thinks you have a HD set the first push of the # key will be just a zoom. If it is in the SD only mode (- Button "A" in the wizard) the first push of # will give you the stretch mode (nothing cut off) on the S-Video out.
This has actually been pretty frustrating because I think it is already working as well as it is going to, but it sounds like it could be better. I am wondering if I am just getting confused with the terminology. I am thinking maybe I should take a few pictures or screen shots to better describe what I am seeing and hopefully you folks can set me straight.

I had nothing set but 480i but there was no change. My TV will report back what is receiving and it was getting 480i either with or without the change but that may just be a function of the S-Video port.

I was going through the advanced wizard instead of the basic mode, does that make a difference? Also I tried telling it I had a 4:3 TV but that did not work either.

Really appreciate you folks hanging in there with me on this. I will work on it some more this evening.

I was going through the advanced wizard instead of the basic mode, does that make a difference? Also I tried telling it I had a 4:3 TV but that did not work either.

I think this is the key! You DO NOT WANT THE ADVANCED WIZARD! - You want the simple mode for SD where you press "A" as soon as you get into the Wizard (No matter what the screen initially shows)! That sets everything for a normal, everyday SD set. Only then will the # key go to stretch on the first push. Note the component output will be magenta in this mode. This is normal. I don't know about HDMI - but I suspect it will not work at all in this mode. But, you probably want to watch through your DVD recorder anyway.

Once you get the hang of it, you will switch modes from SD to the normal HD mode quite quickly.

This has actually been pretty frustrating because I think it is already working as well as it is going to, but it sounds like it could be better. I am wondering if I am just getting confused with the terminology. I am thinking maybe I should take a few pictures or screen shots to better describe what I am seeing and hopefully you folks can set me straight.
Screenshots might help. I think you need to make sure that the 8300HD is in SD mode. It sounds like you have it in HD mode with 480i only selected. To select SD mode, you have to start the wizard and it will usually say "press B for High Definition", but you need to press A at that point to get into SD mode.

Here's a capture of what I get recording to MPEG2 from 8300HD S-Video (click the thumbnails to see full size):
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/5376/nbastretch1uw.th.jpg (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nbastretch1uw.jpg)
4:3 (stretched/squeezed) - what you'd see if you hooked the 8300HD up to an old-fashioned TV without the fancy wide and zoom modes.

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/9417/nbawide0lr.th.jpg (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nbawide0lr.jpg)
same picture as above, but output from a DVD flagged for 16:9

Screenshots might help. I think you need to make sure that the 8300HD is in SD mode. It sounds like you have it in HD mode with 480i only selected. To select SD mode, you have to start the wizard and it will usually say "press B for High Definition", but you need to press A at that point to get into SD mode.

Here's a capture of what I get recording to MPEG2 from 8300HD S-Video (click the thumbnails to see full size):
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/5376/nbastretch1uw.th.jpg (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nbastretch1uw.jpg)
4:3 (stretched/squeezed) - what you'd see if you hooked the 8300HD up to an old-fashioned TV without the fancy wide and zoom modes.

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/9417/nbawide0lr.th.jpg (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nbawide0lr.jpg)
same picture as above, but output from a DVD flagged for 16:9
Thanks guys. I was just logging back in to say it works and you were exactly correct. :cool:

Somehow I skipped over the first piece because it did not give choice for "A" I suppose. My TV does not like it though when viewed through the component outputs. The screen has a horrible pink tint but once I switch to the DVD recorder the output is correct.

After doing this I am thinking I may not have to set my only output as 480i but I will have to check that after this recording. The only thing I may have to do is hit "A" or "B" at the beginning.

Thanks for the help! :D

I think this is the key! You DO NOT WANT THE ADVANCED WIZARD! - You want the simple mode for SD where you press "A" as soon as you get into the Wizard (No matter what the screen initially shows)! That sets everything for a normal, everyday SD set. Only then will the # key go to stretch on the first push. Note the component output will be magenta in this mode. This is normal. I don't know about HDMI - but I suspect it will not work at all in this mode. But, you probably want to watch through your DVD recorder anyway.

Once you get the hang of it, you will switch modes from SD to the normal HD mode quite quickly.
As it turns out it does not matter which wizard but you nailed it at the beginning. I was just missing the simple "A" key. Guess I was so used to just hitting "B" :o

Thanks for hanging in there with me.

As it turns out it does not matter which wizard but you nailed it at the beginning. I was just missing the simple "A" key. Guess I was so used to just hitting "B" :o

Thanks for hanging in there with me.

After you do this a while you'll see that the initial screen of the Wizard comes up with the key (A or B) that you were in. If you leave it for 20 seconds, or so, it will switch modes and show you the other key. But the thing you don't at first realize is that when the wizard comes up you can use either key.

;)

Glad to help.

After you do this a while you'll see that the initial screen of the Wizard comes up with the key (A or B) that you were in. If you leave it for 20 seconds, or so, it will switch modes and show you the other key. But the thing you don't at first realize is that when the wizard comes up you can use either key.

;)

Glad to help.
Last note on the subject. I went back and added all my formats back in (1080i, 480i, 480P) and then the put the box back in SD mode and it works. I suspected that would be the case after I did it the first time.

Luckily the 8300 remembers the previous settings for HD and when I switch back from SD I do not have to add them back in. This acutally makes it much more usable instead of setting only to 480i each time.

Thanks again!

This might be a very basic question, but if I record a movie in HD on my 8300 and send it to an external DVR by using the "send to VCR" setting, will the resulting DVD look about the same quality as a DVD that I'd buy at a store?

Also, I can't see how I'd get it broken into segments like with a pre-recorded DVD, right???

This might be a very basic question, but if I record a movie in HD on my 8300 and send it to an external DVR by using the "send to VCR" setting, will the resulting DVD look about the same quality as a DVD that I'd buy at a store?

Also, I can't see how I'd get it broken into segments like with a pre-recorded DVD, right???
It will be analog quality, not digital like a DVD.

It will be analog quality, not digital like a DVD.

So, will it be better or worse? Just because it is digital, doesn't necessarily mean it is better than analog.

For comparison's sake, look at the difference between music played from an iPod, and one played from a high-end turntable. Put both through a nice system, guess which one sounds better...

So, will it be better or worse? Just because it is digital, doesn't necessarily mean it is better than analog.

For comparison's sake, look at the difference between music played from an iPod, and one played from a high-end turntable. Put both through a nice system, guess which one sounds better...
The recording on a DVD will look about the same as if you had connnected your DVD player to your TV using composite video. You would not be able to get the quality offered by DVD players using component or even HDMI/DVI with upconversion. It won't look bad, and you PROBABLY won't notice the difference between the recording and the store bought DVD, but it WILL be of a lesser quality, speaking in technical terms, as analog depends on the encoders and strength of transmission (something is always lost while using analog means) whereas with digital, it is essentially sending 1's and 0's until the copy is EXACTLY the same as the original.

By the way, your analogy is not valid since iPods usually use AAC or MP3 files which are extremely compressed versions of the original CD file, and records are the original recording with nothing cut out, so you would have to compare it to playing a CD in order for the analogy to be valid.

Just my two cents. :D

The recording on a DVD will look about the same as if you had connnected your DVD player to your TV using composite video. You would not be able to get the quality offered by DVD players using component or even HDMI/DVI with upconversion. It won't look bad, and you PROBABLY won't notice the difference between the recording and the store bought DVD, but it WILL be of a lesser quality, speaking in technical terms, as analog depends on the encoders and strength of transmission (something is always lost while using analog means) whereas with digital, it is essentially sending 1's and 0's until the copy is EXACTLY the same as the original.

By the way, your analogy is not valid since iPods usually use AAC or MP3 files which are extremely compressed versions of the original CD file, and records are the original recording with nothing cut out, so you would have to compare it to playing a CD in order for the analogy to be valid.

Just my two cents. :D

Can't you record to DVD from the 8300HD via S-video? Wouldn't that give you 480i (or 576i)? That certainly isn't as good as 480p (assuming you have a digital TV), or higher with upconverting DVD players, but it certainly is better than composite.

Oh, and you actually affirmed the reason that I made the analogy. Making a statement that analog is not as good as digital (which is what your original statement implied) is too much of a blanket statement. Analog can be better than digital, in some cases, as well as the other way around.

So, will it be better or worse? Just because it is digital, doesn't necessarily mean it is better than analog.

Well it will actually be worse than a typical comercially produced DVD. The primary reason is that for HD programs the down conversion process reduces resolution down to VHS levels. For SD programs, broadcast TV (analog) is limited to 330 lines of resolution (vs 540 for DVD).

Can't you record to DVD from the 8300HD via S-video? Wouldn't that give you 480i (or 576i)? That certainly isn't as good as 480p (assuming you have a digital TV), or higher with upconverting DVD players, but it certainly is better than composite.

Oh, and you actually affirmed the reason that I made the analogy. Making a statement that analog is not as good as digital (which is what your original statement implied) is too much of a blanket statement. Analog can be better than digital, in some cases, as well as the other way around.
I don't have an SA 8300, i actually have a Motorola Moxi, but if you can output the video using S-video using the process you described, and your DVD recorder has an S-video input, then yes you can record using S-video in 480i and it will look slightly better than a composite connection.

As for the analog vs. digital analogy, i was referring only to uncompressed and uncut digital signals, which will always be better than analog. Also, when copying any type of media, digital will always do a better job as it never loses quality, while the use of analog means will cause a loss of quality with each copy.

What version number of SARA are you running on your 8300HD?

Mine is 1.87.32.1 and I am in MA.

Feel free to PM me with your version number and state. I think it would be interesting to see how Charter version numbers differ by region.

Thanks,

Theo

As for the analog vs. digital analogy, i was referring only to uncompressed and uncut digital signals, which will always be better than analog. Also, when copying any type of media, digital will always do a better job as it never loses quality, while the use of analog means will cause a loss of quality with each copy.
If something (audio or video) starts out as analog, then a digital copy of it will always be inferior (how could it be "better" than the original. The quesion of how inferior is dependent on the a to d conversion, and compression used. The conversion used in consumer DVRs (be they from SA, Motorola, Replay or TiVo) is not very good.

If something (audio or video) starts out as analog, then a digital copy of it will always be inferior (how could it be "better" than the original. The quesion of how inferior is dependent on the a to d conversion, and compression used. The conversion used in consumer DVRs (be they from SA, Motorola, Replay or TiVo) is not very good.
I was not referring to analog to digital conversions, but only native digital content. Also, there is a way to convert old movies shot on film (analog i guess you could call it) in SD to TRUE HD RESOLUTION. This is a very painstaking process, but they manually clean every frame of the film, and then scan into a computer using a VERY expensive scanner in a VERY high DPI. Then, they put the frames together in some kind of high end video editing software, and voila, TRUE HD movies. This has been done on a limited scale, but i doubt it will take off for most old films as it is expensive and time consuming, the computer upconversion is much faster, instantaneous actually, and costs much less. I suppose you could make the argument that the "original film" is still of better quality, but i would bet if you saw them side by side you would change your mind on this point.

I was not referring to analog to digital conversions, but only native digital content. Also, there is a way to convert old movies shot on film (analog i guess you could call it) in SD to TRUE HD RESOLUTION. This is a very painstaking process, but they manually clean every frame of the film, and then scan into a computer using a VERY expensive scanner in a VERY high DPI. Then, they put the frames together in some kind of high end video editing software, and voila, TRUE HD movies. This has been done on a limited scale, but i doubt it will take off for most old films as it is expensive and time consuming, the computer upconversion is much faster, instantaneous actually, and costs much less. I suppose you could make the argument that the "original film" is still of better quality, but i would bet if you saw them side by side you would change your mind on this point.
Could be, but the subjectof this thread is the SA8300, and thus my comments are in that context.

Could be, but the subjectof this thread is the SA8300, and thus my comments are in that context.
Sorry, simply addressing a question/issue that came up. Soooo........how about that SA 8300............ ;)

This might be a very basic question, but if I record a movie in HD on my 8300 and send it to an external DVR by using the "send to VCR" setting, will the resulting DVD look about the same quality as a DVD that I'd buy at a store?


If your SA8300 has the same software version as mine, this will look far worse than even a VHS recording.

The "copy to VCR" function is introducing a severe degradation of the image. I suspect that it is reversing the field order of the output, causing severe jaggies on diagonal lines and flicker on horizontal bands.

If something (audio or video) starts out as analog, then a digital copy of it will always be inferior (how could it be "better" than the original. The quesion of how inferior is dependent on the a to d conversion, and compression used. The conversion used in consumer DVRs (be they from SA, Motorola, Replay or TiVo) is not very good.

WOW, I've got a lot of people thinking about this!

I'll take it for granted that the DVD that I'd record won't look as good as a store bought DVD.

Will it look much better than a VCR recording of a movie that I saved with my 8300?

WOW, I've got a lot of people thinking about this!

I'll take it for granted that the DVD that I'd record won't look as good as a store bought DVD.

Will it look much better than a VCR recording of a movie that I saved with my 8300?

If your 8300 does not have the Copy to VCR bug mine does, the DVD recorder should look much better than a VHS recording.

If your 8300 does have the bug, the image will be so bad that you probably will not care to watch either a VCR or DVD recording.

This might be a very basic question, but if I record a movie in HD on my 8300 and send it to an external DVR by using the "send to VCR" setting, will the resulting DVD look about the same quality as a DVD that I'd buy at a store?

Also, I can't see how I'd get it broken into segments like with a pre-recorded DVD, right???Skip all the theoretical discussion about what it should or might look like, and conduct a simple experiment that will SHOW you what it will look like:

Connect the composite video out from your DVR to your TV. Initiate a "Copy to VCR" playback on the DVR, then switch your TV to the composite input.

Your DVD recording will look very similar to what you see on the TV.

Note that there are ways to get better-quality DVD recordings of HD shows, if you're willing to go through just a little more hassle. Scroll back in this thread about 3 or 4 days to the discussions between VideoRoy, davehancock, and ReplayJanitor for details (start around reply #2574 or so).

Jim

WOW, I've got a lot of people thinking about this!

I'll take it for granted that the DVD that I'd record won't look as good as a store bought DVD.

Will it look much better than a VCR recording of a movie that I saved with my 8300?
The recording on a DVD would look a fair amount better than a VHS copy, but the huge benefit to recording to DVD is the digital format, which preserves the quality forever, whereas a VHS will degrade in quality over time. Also, the digital format will allow transferring onto a computer for editing and many other digital transfers of the data with no loss of quality.

Has anyone encountered a problem with their SA8300HD where instead of booting up it says there is an Error 63? Is there anyplace one can find the error codes for this device?

Has anyone encountered a problem with their SA8300HD where instead of booting up it says there is an Error 63? Is there anyplace one can find the error codes for this device?

Have you called customer service at your cable company?

The recording on a DVD would look a fair amount better than a VHS copy, but the huge benefit to recording to DVD is the digital format, which preserves the quality forever, whereas a VHS will degrade in quality over time. Also, the digital format will allow transferring onto a computer for editing and many other digital transfers of the data with no loss of quality.

So here's a stupid question- VCR transfer is based on time (hours/tape speed), but what is DVD recording based on?

Will a typical 2 hour movie fit on a DVD-R?

Also, is it safe to assume that a movie saved on the 8300 would look the same whether it was the HD or SD version of that movie???

DVD recording is also based on time / bitrate. My standalone DVD burner has various settings (that correspond to various resolutions / bit rates) that allow for getting various amounts of time onto a DVD. 1 hour, 2 hours, etc ...

So yes, a 2 hour movie can certainly fit onto a DVD-R.

As to PQ ... no, don't assume HD and SD will be the same. Especially don't assume digital and analog channels will look the same. For best results, record from a digital channel and skip the extra A -> D -> MPEG2 compression.

As for the analog vs. digital analogy, i was referring only to uncompressed and uncut digital signals, which will always be better than analog.

There's that blanket statement again, and it's BS. Remember, unless you're listening to music or movies created using a synthesizer, everything starts off as analog... ;)


I know that this is off topic, but I feel the need to make this point, so that misleading statements won't be made.

Also, if I read the post correctly, Dave stated that the DVR downconverts to SD for the Record to VCR function. Assuming that you can use the S-video out, are you still getting composite out-quality signals?

Also, if I read the post correctly, Dave stated that the DVR downconverts to SD for the Record to VCR function. Assuming that you can use the S-video out, are you still getting composite out-quality signals?

Using S-video usually gives you better quality.

HOWEVER, many people have versions of software where the quality of the "Record to VCR" function is pretty bad - so for those folks, the quality is pretty bad no matter what. On the other hand, if you make the recording (to VCR or DVD) by simply connecting to S-VHS AND recording "live" (meaning play the DVR recording as if you were watching it) then you can get pretty good quality (not quite up to commercial DVD quality though). Then there is the trick discussed a little earlier in this thread to make anamorphic DVDs. Gets quality up a bit higher.

No, they have refused to activate the DVR for me, but the problem with the error message is unrelated to that.

There's that blanket statement again, and it's BS. Remember, unless you're listening to music or movies created using a synthesizer, everything starts off as analog... ;)


I know that this is off topic, but I feel the need to make this point, so that misleading statements won't be made.

Also, if I read the post correctly, Dave stated that the DVR downconverts to SD for the Record to VCR function. Assuming that you can use the S-video out, are you still getting composite out-quality signals?
Most HD Television programming that currently airs is SHOT IN DIGITAL, not ANALOG format, so it STARTS OUT as digital. Also, most music is recorded IN DIGITAL format in a recording studio. The sound goes straight from the mics into a computer for recording.

What does any of this have to do with the subject of this thread?

Most HD Television programming that currently airs is SHOT IN DIGITAL, not ANALOG format, so it STARTS OUT as digital. Also, most music is recorded IN DIGITAL format in a recording studio. The sound goes straight from the mics into a computer for recording.

Yes, most HD television and music is recorded digitally, but my point is that LIVE is analog. Have you ever been to a live concert, and then listened to the recording of that concert (which was probably recorded digitally :p )? The LIVE concert sounds better, even though it is ANALOG.

Again, the point is to clarify so misleading statement aren't made. This is certainly off topic as it pertains to the SA8300HD, but statements made by people need to be a little clearer as to the intent/background/context. The blanket statements are often misleading without a little more context.

Now, back to the regular programming...

Yes, most HD television and music is recorded digitally, but my point is that LIVE is analog. Have you ever been to a live concert, and then listened to the recording of that concert (which was probably recorded digitally :p )? The LIVE concert sounds better, even though it is ANALOG.

Again, the point is to clarify so misleading statement aren't made. This is certainly off topic as it pertains to the SA8300HD, but statements made by people need to be a little clearer as to the intent/background/context. The blanket statements are often misleading without a little more context.

Now, back to the regular programming...
I would also have to point out, as i will also do in the PM you will receive, that equpment at a concert costs tens of thousands of dollars, whereas a digital recording of that concert played on an iPod or computer, is a ridiculously unfair comparison based on the technology that goes into these separate entities. Of course if you spend a million dollars on tech equpment you'll get better performance and quality than with a $2,000 PC, and that's on the higher end of the PC scale. So if you wish to make comparisons, please make them fair.

Perhaps an analog recording on a HIGH quality system compared to a PC playing the digital version of the song hooked up through the same sound system may be a fair comparison..........that's all i'm saying.

All right, no more of this, i have said all that i need to.

Sorry to all for having to page through this.

Okay...I have HDMI hooked up from SA8300HD box to TV. All seems to be working okay, however when I have a 4:3 480i source that is letterbox (black bars top and bottom) the image is shifted more toward the bottom such that the top black bar is bigger than the bottom? What is up with this?

When I hook up using component , the image is in the middle of the screen and black bars are the same size..everything is fine.

Anyone know why?

Yes, most HD television and music is recorded digitally, but my point is that LIVE is analog. Have you ever been to a live concert, and then listened to the recording of that concert (which was probably recorded digitally :p )? The LIVE concert sounds better, even though it is ANALOG.

Again, the point is to clarify so misleading statement aren't made. This is certainly off topic as it pertains to the SA8300HD, but statements made by people need to be a little clearer as to the intent/background/context. The blanket statements are often misleading without a little more context.

Now, back to the regular programming...

Mythbusting:

Being involved with pro-sound concerts.......you would be surprised to learn that there is a lot of DSP used. The top touring consoles are digital. The speaker processing is digital (crossover, eq, dynamics).

http://www.digico.org/DiGiCo-05/products.htm
http://www.dbxpro.com/4800/4800.htm

Back OT.

Okay...I have HDMI hooked up from SA8300HD box to TV. All seems to be working okay, however when I have a 4:3 480i source that is letterbox (black bars top and bottom) the image is shifted more toward the bottom such that the top black bar is bigger than the bottom? What is up with this?

When I hook up using component , the image is in the middle of the screen and black bars are the same size..everything is fine.

Anyone know why?


Any opinions? Is it the box or the TV?

Any opinions? Is it the box or the TV?
You are using a 16x9 HDTV correct? If so, i don't see why there should be black bars on the top and bottom of ANY 4x3 content. 4x3 content displayed on a 16x9 HDTV should be displayed as either 4x3, with black bars on the left and right, or stretched to 16x9, depending on how the TV's "stretch" options and aspect ratio's are set.

Perhaps i'm just misunderstanding your problem.

You are using a 16x9 HDTV correct? If so, i don't see why there should be black bars on the top and bottom of ANY 4x3 content. 4x3 content displayed on a 16x9 HDTV should be displayed as either 4x3, with black bars on the left and right, or stretched to 16x9, depending on how the TV's "stretch" options and aspect ratio's are set.

Perhaps i'm just misunderstanding your problem.


Sometimes channels such as discovery and mtv are shown in 16:9. However, the source is 480i such that my tv wants to do a wide zoom...which it does. Regardless of my zoom mode, since the image is 16:9 it will have black bars on the top and bottom. My question is, why are these black bars not equal in size when using an hdmi connection between the tv and cable box? One is bigger than the other. Using component connections instead of hdmi the black bars are the same size on the top and bottom and everything looks as it should. Is there something inherent to hdmi and 480i that would cuz the image to have uneven black bars? Thanks!

Okay...I have HDMI hooked up from SA8300HD box to TV. All seems to be working okay, however when I have a 4:3 480i source that is letterbox (black bars top and bottom) the image is shifted more toward the bottom such that the top black bar is bigger than the bottom? What is up with this?

When I hook up using component , the image is in the middle of the screen and black bars are the same size..everything is fine.

Anyone know why?

All your TV inputs are not calibrated/setup the same way. Each input (and resolution over HDMI) will have different values for position, timing, brightness, contrast, and a host of other values.

vegggas

All your TV inputs are not calibrated/setup the same way. Each input (and resolution over HDMI) will have different values for position, timing, brightness, contrast, and a host of other values.

vegggas

I have the Sony KDFe50a10. Are these position values something that could be changed in the regular settings menu or would I have to go behind the scenes in the service menu? i don't see any position settings in the regular manual. Is this a problem with the TV not being setup correctly? Is it defective? Thanks for the response.

Sometimes channels such as discovery and mtv are shown in 16:9. However, the source is 480i such that my tv wants to do a wide zoom...which it does. Regardless of my zoom mode, since the image is 16:9 it will have black bars on the top and bottom. My question is, why are these black bars not equal in size when using an hdmi connection between the tv and cable box? One is bigger than the other. Using component connections instead of hdmi the black bars are the same size on the top and bottom and everything looks as it should. Is there something inherent to hdmi and 480i that would cuz the image to have uneven black bars? Thanks!
HDMI will not display 480i content, because HDMI/DVI only supports 480p, 720p, and 1080i, it does not support 480i resolutions. Instead, if your cable box is outputting SD content over HDMI, it will upconvert to either 480p, 720p, or 1080i. I don't know if this has anything to do with your problem, but just a thought.

Sometimes channels such as discovery and mtv are shown in 16:9. However, the source is 480i such that my tv wants to do a wide zoom...which it does.I'm still confused why the 16:9 image doesn't take up the whole screen of your 16:9 TV, but you don't seem to be concerned about that, so I'll ignore it.

Is it possible you have an overscan / horizontal placement imbalance on ALL your 480i material that you haven't yet noticed? For instance, if your TV was overscanning the top by 3% and the bottom by 10%, it might not be obvious that was occurring until some vertically-symmetric image like a letterboxed picture was displayed, at which time you'd see a wider black bar on top than on the bottom.

Edit: Whoops, that's essentially what vegggas was suggesting--sorry for the duplication!

Dan, I'm not familiar with your TV, but on mine, the picture scan and x/y placement adjustments are in a "hidden" menu not covered by the normal user's manual. You might have to do some digging.

Jim

I've followed the tread about using "copy to VCR" to record to an external DVR instead of a VCR.

Is there a way to output to a PC to use a built in DV-r?

I've followed the tread about using "copy to VCR" to record to an external DVR instead of a VCR.

Is there a way to output to a PC to use a built in DV-r?
What do you mean by this, are you talking transferring the content digitally directly to a PC, or just through one of the analog outputs such as composite or S-video. Both are possible if you have the hardware and as long as your STB has active firewire (IEEE 1394) ports for the digital output.

Clarify exactly what you would like to do please...........

What do you mean by this, are you talking transferring the content digitally directly to a PC, or just through one of the analog outputs such as composite or S-video. Both are possible if you have the hardware and as long as your STB has active firewire (IEEE 1394) ports for the digital output.

Clarify exactly what you would like to do please...........


WOW, shows how little I know about doing this!!! :o

Here's what I know-

I have a 8300HD from Adelphia in Buffalo, NY.

I plan on adding a DVD-R to my PC shortly.

I'm none too happy with the quality of tapes made with the "copy to VCR" function, so thought a DVD-R might be a good compromise before the DVD-HD dust settles and they get real on pricing in a few years......

What's my next step?????

thnx

PS: I'm not adverse to learning the basics thru a link to some references, by my Google of this thread didn't seem to help much...

PS: I'm not adverse to learning the basics thru a link to some references, by my Google of this thread didn't seem to help much...That's because this is a Tips & Tricks thread and not a How To Record To DVD thread. :)

Here is a tread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6380734&&#post6380734) discussing how to record via Firewire. The problem is most cableco's don't yet support Firewire on the 8300 so you are left with the Record To VCR option (with less than stellar results depending on your software version) or simply recording while viewing via Composite/S-Video depending on what connections your DVD recorder/PC has.

That's because this is a Tips & Tricks thread and not a How To Record To DVD thread. :)

Here is a tread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6380734&&#post6380734) discussing how to record via Firewire. The problem is most cableco's don't yet support Firewire on the 8300 so you are left with the Record To VCR option (with less than stellar results depending on your software version) or simply recording while viewing via Composite/S-Video depending on what connections your DVD recorder/PC has.


I just started to think about trying this and this thread seems to indicate that it's a lost cause if even the experts can't make it work!

thnx

Well, until Firewire is supported on the 8300, there isn't much you can do that way. But, if your DVD recorder/PC supports it, you can connect the 8300 via Composite or S-Video and record downrez'd HD. The Record To VCR option works fairly well for some, but at least oneverson of the software messes the image up pretty badly and the resulting recording is not worth watching. Recording directly while playing the recording provides better results, but I suspect you want to record the HD image and AFAIK that is not possible without Firewire. The folks here use the SA3250HD for that purpose because firewire is supported on the 3250. Even then you can't record everything because some is 5c copy-protected.

Posted on 8-8-2005

1.88.6.2 is a patch on the old software. Basically, it's a beta test of the next full version of DVR software (DVR 1.5) coming out at the end of the summer. You could equate it to using USB on windows 95/98v1 (extremely buggy) compared to USB on win98SE or higher (less buggy). The revision with built in support directly embedded in the OS will be far less problematic than applied workarounds. Some cablevision users have reported problems after the update that were introduced by the patch. other cableco's are aware of the risks and are not deploying this patch and are awaiting a full version later.

vegggas

Does anyone know when the next full version of DVR software (1.5) will be released?

Did you miss the part in your quote where vegggas said "the end of summer"? :)

Of course, that has already slipped from Q1 and could slip again. Then too, it will be up to your cableco when they actually install it. Bottomline is that it's really too early for a definitive date.

Did you miss the part in your quote where vegggas said "the end of summer"? :)

Of course, that has already slipped from Q1 and could slip again. Then too, it will be up to your cableco when they actually install it. Bottomline is that it's really too early for a definitive date.

Yes, I saw "the end of summer?", but he didn't specify which year. :confused:

So it has slipped about 7 months so far and still counting.

Or it could be the end of this summer. :rolleyes:

Oh, egg on my face, I didn't catch the original post date. :o

FWIW, IIRC now, it was supposed to be the end of last summer, then it moved to the end of Q1 this year, and it now seems to be somewhat in limbo. Not sure if vegggas has any current info he can share or not. The last I heard is that there was some movement to get OCAP implemented by year's end (this year) and I believe that will have a pretty significant impact of current STBs, IPGs, etc. Maybe vegggas will find some time to comment on this subject, hint-hint. :)

Thanks Dave for the info. I should have made the date of vegggas' post more obvious.

SA is working on a lot of different things right now. Click Interesting stuff at SciAtl.com a)new SARA manual b)8300HDC (CableCard 8300) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=662120) and Sientific Atlanta's MCP-100 Multi-Room HD-DVR w/DVD Recorder (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=620473) for more info. The new software version may have a lower priority then before.

I hope this isn't counted as a troll, but does anyone have an idea when the god-&!&* 'kick to menu' bug is being addressed? I've seen conflicting reports that it's being fixed/been fixed/in process, but nothing definitive. Is this in the 1.8.8 update? I'm an NC Adelphia subscriber if that makes any difference.

<rant>
Is it just me or is this a showstopping bug? I just can't believe that a mass-market device was shipped with a flaw this big. I know I'll be dismissed as 'another prima donna' tivo refugee, but this is the single worst consumer electronics device I've _EVER_ used. The lack of a 'real' season pass, the 'kick to menu' bug, the 'start-from-the-current-point-in-the-recording' "feature", the piss-poor search options, the grainy low-res menus, and the god-awful color schemes all combine to form a perfect-storm of suck ten miles wide. It isn't as if this box starting shipping yesterday, this thread was started in _2004_, and the same bugs are still unfixed. Tivo isn't just a little better; it's orders of magnitude better. It's hard to even express in words how much I despise this device. In case any SciAtlanta engineers browse this forum: y_o_u __s_u_c_k.
</rant>

I hope this isn't counted as a troll, but does anyone have an idea when the god-&!&* 'kick to menu' bug is being addressed?What do you mean by "kick to menu"? Describe it ...

If you mean the "drop to live" a.k.a "kick out to live" issue (when watching a scheduled recording in progress, and you aren't live, and the recording stops, you get dropped to live TV) ... that's fixed in 1.88.x.x.

But, I'm not sure what you mean by "kick to menu".

BTW, 'start-from-the-current-point-in-the-recording' has also been (indirectly) addressed. It still starts from the current point in the recording ... but there's a "Start From Beginning" option, even for recordings in progress. Before 1.88.x.x "Start From Beginning" only showed up for fully completed recordings.

ja30278's rant hardly deserves a response - so I won't (except to say that TW Rochester, NY got 1.88.17.a100 this week - which fixes the stuff he's ranting about).

Sorry, Dave, but I don't agree. Rants like his need to be responded to, if only to set the record straight.

He can rant all he wants, he obviously doesn't understand copyrights. Every issue he rants about has been explained in this thread many times. Tivo owns the rights and, until recently, they would not allow others, at least not SA, to use these features. Now that they are getting into the cable STB business, they are more willing to negotiate licensing of the features folks desire. The solution to his problem is simple, dump cable and go get a Tivo, or simply wait until his cableco is ready to release the 1.88.x.x or later software. All he's really done by ranting is limit the crediblity of any future posts he might make. I know I'll only read them for entertainment value. :)

Excellent point Dave (and well put too) ;)

He could very well be doing a rant, but some of what he said is true, far as I'm concerned. I haven't read this entire thread and I do not own a SA8300HD box. But, I've used one for extended periods of time and everytime I do, I change my mind about going to cable. The bad part is I wouldn't mind going back, but I really dislike that box.

I kind of doubt that some of the features that are missing is because of copyrights. Everyone has done a very good job of ignoring Tivo about that. In SC, where I'd end up using it most likely, they don't have any updated software recently that I'm aware of.

Just the 4:3 pitiful menu and the fact it doesn't even allow the start from beginning while recording and then ends completely at the end of the show, is bad enough.

Plus, since they are testing that Start Over and SDV, I've heard they probably wouldn't change the software unless it benefits those two things. But I can use it and I know how, electronics is something I've dealt with a long time. Its just with some somewhat minor changes it could be much better, but SA just drags really bad. They will only use SARA in SC because of so called beta testing.

Larry, you can doubt all you want. There are plenty of press releases that indicate SA and Tivo recently reached agreement on several issues and that resulted in version 1.88.x.x which addresses the issues he ranted about. Tivo is not the only one that holds the rights to all features BTW, though you might be hardpressed to figure it all out.

To be sure, a 16x9 IPG would be nice (and it'll come as cableco's move to new IPGs), but who really cares? FWIW, SA is not in the IPG business, they do what the cableco's ask and that's it. The IPG for many cableco's is provided by Gemstar/TV Guide, SA simply provides the interface to the 8300, etc. Gemstar/TVG alreay have a better IPG system available, but cableco's are reluctant to spend the money for it in view of coming things like OCAP, etc.

You can call SA all the names you want, but they are not the culprits in all this. Cableco's provide for the lowest common denominator and right now that is still their Analog/SD subscriber base. As they go all digital, things will change, but even that will still be somewhat limited because of the hodge-podge of cable head-end equipment and the cable brass mentality. SA also does not make decisions as to when and if any software release will be implemented by any given cableco. If 1.88.x.x. worked on every cable system, and if it were implemented cable-wide, the rants would then dwell on search functions, recording options for actors, directors, etc., and the 4:3 IPG display. The fact that all this is already available doesn't enter into the picture. Folks continue to badmouth SA and the 8300, when the cableco's are the ones responsible for what we are given.

Then too, there have been more than a few folks with the same reservations about moving back to cable. Fortunately, many of those found that for all it's faults, the 8300 actually works quite well for most people. Sure, it's not as slick or feature-rich as a Tivo, but the price is right for dual-HD recording capability and when the next gen DVR comes out, there won't be any cash outlay to get it. There also isn't any concern about MPeg-4, limited HD locals, etc. Just how does that slick Tivo do at recording the new MPeg-4 local HD channels on DirecTV anyway?

Larry, you can doubt all you want. There are plenty of press releases that indicate SA and Tivo recently reached agreement on several issues and that resulted in version 1.88.x.x which addresses the issues he ranted about. Tivo is not the only one that holds the rights to all features BTW, though you might be hardpressed to figure it all out.

<< SNIP >>


I couldn't find any press releases that indicate SA and Tivo have reached an agreement. Please provide links to them. Thanks.

Yes, I'd also like to see those press releases.

I hope this isn't counted as a troll, but does anyone have an idea when the god-&!&* 'kick to menu' bug is being addressed? I've seen conflicting reports that it's being fixed/been fixed/in process, but nothing definitive. Is this in the 1.8.8 update? I'm an NC Adelphia subscriber if that makes any difference.

<rant>
Is it just me or is this a showstopping bug? I just can't believe that a mass-market device was shipped with a flaw this big. I know I'll be dismissed as 'another prima donna' tivo refugee, but this is the single worst consumer electronics device I've _EVER_ used. The lack of a 'real' season pass, the 'kick to menu' bug, the 'start-from-the-current-point-in-the-recording' "feature", the piss-poor search options, the grainy low-res menus, and the god-awful color schemes all combine to form a perfect-storm of suck ten miles wide. It isn't as if this box starting shipping yesterday, this thread was started in _2004_, and the same bugs are still unfixed. Tivo isn't just a little better; it's orders of magnitude better. It's hard to even express in words how much I despise this device. In case any SciAtlanta engineers browse this forum: y_o_u __s_u_c_k.
</rant>


The short answer is that the bugs have been fixed. You can blame your local cable company, or SA, or both, for the extremely slow roll-out of that new build. It's a little understandable that the cable co's would be reluctant to simply fling a new build out there that could affect thousands of installed boxes. However, from what I can surmise, the build's been available for quite a while, and we're only seeing a trickle of roll-outs of the new build. It could take quite a while for you to receive the fixes, which doesn't help you at all.

Whenever someone posts something like you have questioning the worth/value/competence of this box (I hesitate to call it a DVR), they are always beaten down by the apologists on this thread. The apologists around here will say "it's your cable provider's fault", or "SA has that coded up, but no one's gotten it yet", or "Wah, we can't have that cuz Tivo's got a patent on that" or some other excuse. The bottom line for you, however, is what you've got in front of you : a nice piece of hardware saddled with some god-awful software.

I am a professional programmer, and the shortcomings this box are inexcusable. It has various "features" (I'm being generous here) that simply make me scratch my head, if not scream out loud. The lack of a functional series recording option, poor guide data, poor conflict resolution, Fisher-Price level graphical menus, not being able to easily watch a program from the beginning while it's recording, getting kicked out to live TV while you're watching something, and so forth... This box has promise, but it's got a lot of problems right now.

The answer to your problem will arrive sometime between July and September. My POS 8300HD box will be kicked to the curb in extremely short order when the TiVo ships.

Yes, I'd also like to see those press releases.
Sorry, but I'm not going to waste my time looking for them, they're well over a year old and may already be gone. Besides, they wouldn't make any difference to you anyway. You want a cable Tivo and nothing else will ever be good enough for you, regardless of price and other factors.

You can call me and others all the names you want, but that doesn't change the facts or who is at fault in all this. I've said often that even I could program this stuff better, but cableco's get what they pay for, period. And SA is not the only provider who has to deal with the shoddy IPG cableco's get from Gemstar/TV Guide. The 8300 is only one piece of the puzzle, but all you and others want to do is bash it and SA. And I support your right to do just that, no matter how non-productive it is. But, I don't have to sit here and let your posts go unanswered. The 8300 works just fine for a vast number of users and the price is a lot less than the Tivo alternative. When the S3 does arrive, I'll be one of the first to look at it, but price will be a big consideration. I suspect the S3 will not be cheap and sooner or later there will be even more alternatives to choose from.

Sorry, but I'm not going to waste my time looking for them, they're well over a year old and may already be gone. Besides, they wouldn't make any difference to you anyway. You want a cable Tivo and nothing else will ever be good enough for you, regardless of price and other factors.

So, let me get this straight, just to be sure I understand... You know I must be a little slow if I can't understand how the 8300 isn't better than a TiVo. :confused:

You state that there were agreements between SA and TiVo to resolve the patent and/or licensing issues, and press releases issued to announce said agreements. However, when pressed by multiple people (yes, someone else besides me requested a link) you fail to do so. We should just take you at your word then, I suppose, since you're obviously on the moral high-ground here in defense of the beloved 8300 POS.

Fine... Whatever...

The 8300 is only one piece of the puzzle, but all you and others want to do is bash it and SA. And I support your right to do just that, no matter how non-productive it is. But, I don't have to sit here and let your posts go unanswered. The 8300 works just fine for a vast number of users and the price is a lot less than the Tivo alternative. When the S3 does arrive, I'll be one of the first to look at it, but price will be a big consideration. I suspect the S3 will not be cheap and sooner or later there will be even more alternatives to choose from.

I was merely answering the questions of (yet another) frustrated 8300 user, who through no fault of his own, happens to agree with those of us who feel the 8300 is lacking. My primary point was not to bash you, but to enlighten the poster as to why things are in their current state of being. You chose to take my points personally, and that's your perogative.

In case you hadn't noticed it, independent cable box manufacturers aren't in abundance lately. Given the high barriers to entry (cost of R&D and manufacture, CableLabs licensing fees, contractual agreements between cable co's and manufacturers, etc), it's very understandable. TiVo will probably be the only available 3rd party box to many cable subscribers. So, your choice will be between your provider's standard box (and their failure to innovate) and TiVo (who continues to innovate and support their customers daily). I know where my money's going.

So, let me get this straight, just to be sure I understand... You know I must be a little slow if I can't understand how the 8300 isn't better than a TiVo. :confused:

You state that there were agreements between SA and TiVo to resolve the patent and/or licensing issues, and press releases issued to announce said agreements. However, when pressed by multiple people (yes, someone else besides me requested a link) you fail to do so. We should just take you at your word then, I suppose, since you're obviously on the moral high-ground here in defense of the beloved 8300 POS.

Fine... Whatever...

Paul, et al,

Go to a Tivo thread. I (and I would guess many others here) am trying to make the most of a somewhat flawed piece of equipment. I will not be shelling out many hundreds of dollars for a "better" DVR, when I find that the "8300HD POS" works just fine for my needs. If your needs are different, then by all means fine something else that fits them. But, your CONTINUED negativity does no good here. All of the comparisons between the 8300HD and Tivo were made a LONG TIME AGO. Many of those issues still linger. But, do we need to keep dwelling on them? I think not...

If I had never used Tivo (Sony DirecTV T-60), then I would think the 8300 was the best thing since sliced bread. That said, since I got tired of SD television and wanted to make the move to HD...I had to leave my 5 year old Tivo behind.

I guess it's just odd to me that a 5 year old Tivo worked 10x better and had much more robust features than a box that is just a year or so old. I think that is more SA's fault than the cable company.

I'm certainly not an "8300 hater" like some folks seem to be but I will definitely be looking at the new S3 Tivo when it is released. That said, maybe it's release will light a fire under SA to improve their product. Since I'm paying $10 a month now for DVR service, the new Tivo would really have to blow my socks off to pay $500 or more for it as it would take 50 months to break even. By that time, the 9300 might be released, etc....

I was merely answering the questions of (yet another) frustrated 8300 user, who through no fault of his own, happens to agree with those of us who feel the 8300 is lacking. My primary point was not to bash you, but to enlighten the poster as to why things are in their current state of being. You chose to take my points personally, and that's your perogative.

In case you hadn't noticed it, independent cable box manufacturers aren't in abundance lately. Given the high barriers to entry (cost of R&D and manufacture, CableLabs licensing fees, contractual agreements between cable co's and manufacturers, etc), it's very understandable. TiVo will probably be the only available 3rd party box to many cable subscribers. So, your choice will be between your provider's standard box (and their failure to innovate) and TiVo (who continues to innovate and support their customers daily). I know where my money's going.

Paul,

Of course I posted my previous post prior to your explanation. Yes, many of us are a little frustrated (seems like some more than others ;) ), but we needs to try to focus on getting the most out of this product, and making it better. It just adds to the frustration when we get into the bashing mode over and over again. :o

If I had never used Tivo (Sony DirecTV T-60), then I would think the 8300 was the best thing since sliced bread. That said, since I got tired of SD television and wanted to make the move to HD...I had to leave my 5 year old Tivo behind.

I guess it's just odd to me that a 5 year old Tivo worked 10x better and had much more robust features than a box that is just a year or so old. I think that is more SA's fault than the cable company.

I'm certainly not an "8300 hater" like some folks seem to be but I will definitely be looking at the new S3 Tivo when it is released. That said, maybe it's release will light a fire under SA to improve their product. Since I'm paying $10 a month now for DVR service, the new Tivo would really have to blow my socks off to pay $500 or more for it as it would take 50 months to break even. By that time, the 9300 might be released, etc....

TiVo's changed their pricing recently. You don't buy the box outright anymore, you lease it. It's a little too involved to get into here, but suffice it to say that there isn't a large up-front fee ($500 or whatever) any more. You simply pay a monthly fee to TiVo, end of story.

Paul,

Of course I posted my previous post prior to your explanation. Yes, many of us are a little frustrated (seems like some more than others ;) ), but we needs to try to focus on getting the most out of this product, and making it better. It just adds to the frustration when we get into the bashing mode over and over again. :o


No sweat. No harm, no foul. :)

Well, given the amount of forward progress that's been made by SA/cableco's on improving the 8300HD user experience (read : little to none), I really don't think it makes much difference what the focus is here. Nothing's gonna change.

It just irks me when someone pops up here for the first time, lists off the well-know list of gripes they have with the box, and is given the de facto aplogists' manifesto or a simple statement of "it'll be better, some day" without a balancing of the facts at hand.

My intent here isn't to stir up trouble. Really, it isn't. I really want people who come here asking questions to get all the answers, not just some of them.

I hope this isn't counted as a troll, but does anyone have an idea when the god-&!&* 'kick to menu' bug is being addressed? I've seen conflicting reports that it's being fixed/been fixed/in process, but nothing definitive. Is this in the 1.8.8 update? I'm an NC Adelphia subscriber if that makes any difference.

<rant>
Is it just me or is this a showstopping bug? I just can't believe that a mass-market device was shipped with a flaw this big. I know I'll be dismissed as 'another prima donna' tivo refugee, but this is the single worst consumer electronics device I've _EVER_ used. The lack of a 'real' season pass, the 'kick to menu' bug, the 'start-from-the-current-point-in-the-recording' "feature", the piss-poor search options, the grainy low-res menus, and the god-awful color schemes all combine to form a perfect-storm of suck ten miles wide. It isn't as if this box starting shipping yesterday, this thread was started in _2004_, and the same bugs are still unfixed. Tivo isn't just a little better; it's orders of magnitude better. It's hard to even express in words how much I despise this device. In case any SciAtlanta engineers browse this forum: y_o_u __s_u_c_k.
</rant>


The short answer is that the bugs have been fixed. You can blame your local cable company, or SA, or both, for the extremely slow roll-out of that new build. It's a little understandable that the cable co's would be reluctant to simply fling a new build out there that could affect thousands of installed boxes. However, from what I can surmise, the build's been available for quite a while, and we're only seeing a trickle of roll-outs of the new build. It could take quite a while for you to receive the fixes, which doesn't help you at all.

<< SNIP >>


The statement "the bugs have been fixed" is overly optimistic. The only bugs from ja30278's list that have been fixed in 1.88.X.X are the "kick to live" and "start from the begining of a program being recorded menu option." He called these the 'kick to menu' bug and the 'start-from-the-current-point-in-the-recording' "feature". The 'start-from-the-current-point-in-the-recording' "feature" might refer to something different than "start from the begining of a program being recorded menu option". The other issues have not been corrected.

I have an HDTivo sitting in the closet. I used it until I got tired of D* picture quality. I had basic cable anyway(my wife didn't like D*). At the time I had D* because I could record HD with 169time. Now I can record HD on cable.

Anyway I've used the 8300 and the HDTivo extensively. When I first changed to the 8300 I hated it. I really missed the 30 second skip more than anything. After using the 8300 for a while I got used to it and I don't miss the Tivo interface much. One thing I hated about the Tivo was the long wait time for scheduling a recording. The 8300 is instantneous and the guide is much quicker. My two biggest complaints on the 8300 were solved with the new software upgrade.

The cable industry is currently going through major changes and reworking of how a cable plant operates and is used. This is not a simple or quick step, and in fact has been started many months to years ago and will be actively seen starting at the end of this year. Every cable company has committed to going torward OCAP designation for the Open Cable standards http://www.opencable.com/ .
At this juncture, STB manufacturers, cable companies, users, etc will have a multitude of choices almost as easy as when TV's became "Cable ready" in the 80's. At this point a software version will no longer matter, as applications are run over a java script of available applications in ram. You buy your box and live with your choice.
As for defending SA and cable co's, the software has been written, but due to variances in cable design, each Head End currently has to modify the code to work with it's applications. Decisions have to be made to slap a band-aid on a design again and again, or move forward with a completely new design. SA makes the fixes and new software, but an individual cable co's applications do not always mesh with the design. I am experiencing this right now as I test a later version of software (not released anywhere) that is not playing well with other apps and causing lockups and abnormalities.
As for Tivo, good luck. As mentioned, they are having their own problems and are facing a situation just like the Sony cable DVR's did. A high cost with very few purchases and technology thats already obsolete before it's even released as OCAP emerges and Switched packet digital streaming becomes standard. Their sucessful lawsuit and payout against Echostar and select Royalty arangements with STB providers AND cable co's are about the only thing that kept them afloat all these years.
The good news with Tivo is their possible buyout by Cisco, who now owns SA. This will spawn off cheap devices like the Linksys brand that can be sold in any consumer store. They can offer differning levels of service at varying price points, and negate many of the patent disputes that each cable co has had to pay off Tivo for the use of playing back one program while recording another. Also at that point, with switched digital streaming, your STB is basically a router with a video output, which we know Cisco can easily make.
Think of the bigger picture here, and not today's quick fix.

Even though I haven't said enough, I've already said too much...
vegggas

The cable industry is currently going through major changes and reworking of how a cable plant operates and is used. This is not a simple or quick step, and in fact has been started many months to years ago and will be actively seen starting at the end of this year. Every cable company has committed to going torward OCAP designation for the Open Cable standards http://www.opencable.com/ .
At this juncture, STB manufacturers, cable companies, users, etc will have a multitude of choices almost as easy as when TV's became "Cable ready" in the 80's. At this point a software version will no longer matter, as applications are run over a java script of available applications in ram. You buy your box and live with your choice.
As for defending SA and cable co's, the software has been written, but due to variances in cable design, each Head End currently has to modify the code to work with it's applications. Decisions have to be made to slap a band-aid on a design again and again, or move forward with a completely new design. SA makes the fixes and new software, but an individual cable co's applications do not always mesh with the design. I am experiencing this right now as I test a later version of software (not released anywhere) that is not playing well with other apps and causing lockups and abnormalities.
As for Tivo, good luck. As mentioned, they are having their own problems and are facing a situation just like the Sony cable DVR's did. A high cost with very few purchases and technology thats already obsolete before it's even released as OCAP emerges and Switched packet digital streaming becomes standard. Their sucessful lawsuit and payout against Echostar and select Royalty arangements with STB providers AND cable co's are about the only thing that kept them afloat all these years.
The good news with Tivo is their possible buyout by Cisco, who now owns SA. This will spawn off cheap devices like the Linksys brand that can be sold in any consumer store. They can offer differning levels of service at varying price points, and negate many of the patent disputes that each cable co has had to pay off Tivo for the use of playing back one program while recording another. Also at that point, with switched digital streaming, your STB is basically a router with a video output, which we know Cisco can easily make.
Think of the bigger picture here, and not today's quick fix.

Even though I haven't said enough, I've already said too much...
vegggas

I love Vegggas...

The statement "the bugs have been fixed" is overly optimistic. The only bugs from ja30278's list that have been fixed in 1.88.X.X are the "kick to live" and "start from the begining of a program being recorded menu option." He called these the 'kick to menu' bug and the 'start-from-the-current-point-in-the-recording' "feature". The 'start-from-the-current-point-in-the-recording' "feature" might refer to something different than "start from the begining of a program being recorded menu option". The other issues have not been corrected.



Hey, stop that! You're being negative! We're trying to be positive here! :)

If you want to be pedantic about things, all of our issues (along with cancer and world hunger) are resolved in the mysterious SARA 1.5 release that we may see before the ends of our lifetimes. Someone will get it sometime and somewhere, and the proclamation will go forth from the rooftops stating that all of our problems are solved, and we should all be grateful to SA because of it.

I'm not holding my breath...


Anyway I've used the 8300 and the HDTivo extensively. When I first changed to the 8300 I hated it. I really missed the 30 second skip more than anything. After using the 8300 for a while I got used to it and I don't miss the Tivo interface much. One thing I hated about the Tivo was the long wait time for scheduling a recording. The 8300 is instantneous and the guide is much quicker. My two biggest complaints on the 8300 were solved with the new software upgrade.

Totally agreed. The HDTiVo isn't without it's flaws or bugs. It's just that they're much less infuriating or confounding than those inflicted upon us by the 8300. The TiVo apologists could also point out (somewhat fairly) that DirecTV has also artificially held back the software on the HDTiVo, tying TiVo's hands in what they could and could not put on that box. It also suffered from HDMI issues as well, I believe.


Hopefully, with the releases of the Series2 DT (2-tuner analog) and the Series3 (2-tuner HDTV/MPEG-4), there will finally be a complete set of options for those of us who don't want to use cable company issued boxes for any use. Consumers being able to have a choice will drive competition and innovation on both sides of the fence, and HOPEFULLY all consumers will benefit. I can dream, can't I ? :)

As always, thanks for the update from the front lines, vegggas.

As for Tivo, good luck. As mentioned, they are having their own problems and are facing a situation just like the Sony cable DVR's did. A high cost with very few purchases and technology thats already obsolete before it's even released as OCAP emerges and Switched packet digital streaming becomes standard. Their sucessful lawsuit and payout against Echostar and select Royalty arangements with STB providers AND cable co's are about the only thing that kept them afloat all these years.

Don't forget the large sums of money that DirecTV was paying them for the millions of DirecTiVo subscribers they had. If I'm not mistaken, that was one of their largest source of revenues over the past few years.

Concerning switched packet : wouldn't that require a whole new set of head-end and customer-prem equipment anyways ? From my somewhat limited understanding of how it works, there needs to be two-way communication from the CPE gear to alert the upstream switches to what content to deliver. Is this correct ?

It seems as though these constant technological "upgrades" by the cable consortium really represent a moving target that's extremely difficult to track if you're not in the consortium. First CableCard is the future. As soon as it ships, CableCard 2.0 is the new hot thing. CC2.0 isn't even defined yet, and packet switching is the new, new hot thing. Eventually, they're gonna have to pick a technology and run with it. If they never settle on something, no one's gonna want to ship anything for fear of being instantly obsolete.

Thanks for the information, vegggas.

Do you think any more of the cable companies will release a patched 1.88.X.X instead of waiting for a new version 1.5?

Concerning switched packet : wouldn't that require a whole new set of head-end and customer-prem equipment anyways ? From my somewhat limited understanding of how it works, there needs to be two-way communication from the CPE gear to alert the upstream switches to what content to deliver. Is this correct ?
Millions of dollars of Head End equipment is needed to switch over to all packet technology. There are two distinct switch packet ideologies and a mixture between the two.
Scenario 1 is the most effective. Convert everything to switched packet digital, including the analog channels, which opens up the bandwidth limitations of each 6Mhz (38Mbps@256Qam) channel into 10/100 Gig connections. Direct the entire digital packet streams to the edge nodes right before the customer premises, where the utilization and resources are sent to the customer. Current STB's that are packet enabled (I think most digital SA and Moto STB's have built in cable modem technology for this) can request the stream from the node in real time. Common streams are Multicast to many users without replicating bandwidth. Individual PPV and low demand channels are Unicast to an individual STB.

Scenario 2 is a hybrid design that is the least disruptive to the customer. Convert everything to switched packet digital, including the analog channels, which opens up the bandwidth limitations of each 6Mhz channel (38Mbps) channel into 10/100 Gig connections. Direct the entire digital packet streams to the edge nodes right before the customer premises, where high demand channels are converted to edge QAM's for digital tuning, and analog based channels are converted back to analog streams for basic customer equipment tuning (i.e. cable ready TV's). This severely limits the bandwidth at the end user, but gives the backbone a wide network, and puts the limits at the customer premise side. STB's using the packet technology can still be used along side the QAM and analog technologies, but the throughput drops from the potential 100's GBps (Packet) down to 5.5GBps (all QAM) down to removing 38Mbps for each analog channel or QAM used (70 analog, and 10 QAM = 3Gbps throughput loss)

All existing cable companies (with local franchise agreements = ALL) are having to use scenario 2 to keep analog for their base customers as mandated by the local franchise agreements and transition into an all packet technology later. Newcomers with statewide franchises could go directly to scenario 1 "IF" they have an infrastructure in place to handle that much traffic. So far, none do, and they are using a more digital version of scenario 2 off of edge QAMs.

my head hurts...
vegggas

Thanks for the information, vegggas.

Do you think any more of the cable companies will release a patched 1.88.X.X instead of waiting for a new version 1.5?
Yes, but it's not as high a priority if they move over to OCAP this year and you have a"stable" system now. I'm testing a DVR 1.8 version (not a patch, but new version - please don't ask :eek: ) ahead of anything else released as far as I can tell, but even that is very old to SA as they have moved on toward farther revisions. Problems with new code and legacy apps already on the system create all kinds of problems that the cable co has to try to work around.

vegggas

Sorry for being stupid and little off topic but I still can't understand how Tivo could ever patent the concept of watching one channel and recording another? This is been done since first VCR with internal tuner came to the market, how can you patent that. BTW did anybody patented the wheel yet?

I'm testing a DVR 1.8 version (not a patch, but new version - please don't ask :eek: ) ahead of anything else released as far as I can tell, but even that is very old to SA as they have moved on toward farther revisions.vegggas
Earlier this week the TW system in Rochester, NY pushed 1.88.17.a100. I noted that it was DVR 1.8 version. I sort of expected it to be 1.5 There are a few reports on the local HDTV forum of people experiencing early termination of recordings. I'm not sure that is related, as there have been periodic reports of similar problems with the older version of SARA.

Sorry for being stupid and little off topic but I still can't understand how Tivo could ever patent the concept of watching one channel and recording another? This is been done since first VCR with internal tuner came to the market, how can you patent that. BTW did anybody patented the wheel yet?
How about this for a start http://news.com.com/Industry+ponders+impact+of+TiVo+patent/2100-1040_3-258345.html or try a google search on Tivo and patent.
Worse yet, a long time ago, someone patented digital audio and video streaming and storing video or audio in a digital state and transferring it to another device or location. That patent affects almost every facet of digital audio and video and a patent lawer consortium has bought the rights and is going after everyone to get royalties from past usage.

vegggas

Earlier this week the TW system in Rochester, NY pushed 1.88.17.a100. I noted that it was DVR 1.8 version. I sort of expected it to be 1.5 There are a few reports on the local HDTV forum of people experiencing early termination of recordings. I'm not sure that is related, as there have been periodic reports of similar problems with the older version of SARA.
I am testing a later version than that. So far recordings are good. It's the handoff to other aps and sharing of application resources that are causing problems.


vegggas

How about this for a start http://news.com.com/Industry+ponders+impact+of+TiVo+patent/2100-1040_3-258345.html or try a google search on Tivo and patent.
Worse yet, a long time ago, someone patented digital audio and video streaming and storing video or audio in a digital state and transferring it to another device or location. That patent affects almost every facet of digital audio and video and a patent lawer consortium has bought the rights and is going after everyone to get royalties from past usage.

vegggas

I think vegggas is talking about burst.com and their patent portfolio. They've won a $60M patent suit against Microsoft, and recently filed suit against Apple for similar infractions. What everyone seems to forget is that burst.com isn't just an IP holding company (which you see a lot of these days), they actually spent a lot of time, money, and effort developing their technology. They just didn't ship any of it in a mainstream fashion. Should their hard work go unrewarded ? Should others be able to copy their work and sell it off as their own ?

You need to take a lot more things into context when talking about patents, including the time-frame in which they were developed. For example, you realize that Morse code, the lightbulb, and traffic signals were all patented ? They seem trivial exercises now, but at the time they were revolutionary. What TiVo had patented in the mid-to-late 90's seems trivial now, but it was not so at the time. Sure, there were other "time delay" or "time shifting" pieces of equipment in existence at the time, but they were all multi $1K's pieces of gear. TiVo invented a way to consolidate a lot of tech in a brand-new and economical fashion in a way that had not been done so before. They should be rewarded for their efforts.

We've all seen the crazy patents being awarded nowadays (Philips recent patent for not allowing you to FFwd through TV commercials, Microsoft's recent patent which covers internet chatting or forums while you watch TV, Amazon's one-click patent). I think we can all agree these are foolishly granted. These are symptoms of the USPTO being overburdened by everyone trying to patent as much as they can, as quickly as they can. So, they simply rubber stamp stuff and let the courts sort it out. Well, the courts have sorted out some high profile patents recently, and things are working themselves out. TiVo's patents still stand, while NTP's patents fell at the hands of the Crackberry.

The good news with Tivo is their possible buyout by Cisco, who now owns SA. This will spawn off cheap devices like the Linksys brand that can be sold in any consumer store. They can offer differning levels of service at varying price points, and negate many of the patent disputes that each cable co has had to pay off Tivo for the use of playing back one program while recording another. Also at that point, with switched digital streaming, your STB is basically a router with a video output, which we know Cisco can easily make.
Think of the bigger picture here, and not today's quick fix.

Even though I haven't said enough, I've already said too much...
vegggas

I assume then there is no way that the series 3 Tivo will work with SDV, right? Thats the way I understand it, even though some are hoping it will, since the box isn't out yet.

There are already enough channels on SDV on TWC SC that I cannot buy the series 3 for that reason, which is too bad.

I read in the past from the spokesperson for SC that TWC wanted to switch all their systems to the same software, within 6-18 months. So I guess that ties with that open cable standard?

I don't hate the SA8300HD but I don't like that SARA interface at all. It does bother me its only 4:3 and there isn't enough information on the screen.

I assume then there is no way that the series 3 Tivo will work with SDV, right? Thats the way I understand it, even though some are hoping it will, since the box isn't out yet. Who knows? The current design is good for current technology, but it's quickly going to be future limited.

I don't hate the SA8300HD but I don't like that SARA interface at all. It does bother me its only 4:3 and there isn't enough information on the screen.
I still don't understand the statements about this issue. The Tivo has an SD 4:3 graphics overlay chipset similar to what the SA boxes use. The only difference is that it s-t-retch-e-s the overlay to fit the screen output type when in HD mode, wheras the SA box only stretches the overlay when in 480 SD standard modes.
Put your Tivo in SD 4:3 mode and the graphics remain the same but are now 4:3.

vegggas

I assume then there is no way that the series 3 Tivo will work with SDV, right? Thats the way I understand it, even though some are hoping it will, since the box isn't out yet.

There are already enough channels on SDV on TWC SC that I cannot buy the series 3 for that reason, which is too bad.

I read in the past from the spokesperson for SC that TWC wanted to switch all their systems to the same software, within 6-18 months. So I guess that ties with that open cable standard?

I don't hate the SA8300HD but I don't like that SARA interface at all. It does bother me its only 4:3 and there isn't enough information on the screen.

Weren't there some tie-ins between CableCard 2.0's bi-directional messaging and the switched video stuff ? I thought I read something about that, where the upstream messages coming from the CPE would be intercepted and acted upon by the upstream switches.

Who knows? The current design is good for current technology, but it's quickly going to be future limited.

I still don't understand the statements about this issue. The Tivo has an SD 4:3 graphics overlay chipset similar to what the SA boxes use. The only difference is that it s-t-retch-e-s the overlay to fit the screen output type when in HD mode, wheras the SA box only stretches the overlay when in 480 SD standard modes.
Put your Tivo in SD 4:3 mode and the graphics remain the same but are now 4:3.

vegggas

I don't know if it's coincidental or not, but it's sure funny that you chose to keep "retch" together when describing the 8300's video output. :)

I think his point is that if the 8300's outputting 1080i or 720p, it'd sure be nice for it to make use of the entire 16:9 frame. Not by st-retch-ing the same 4:3 GUI elements, but by actually presenting a 16:9 menu. Make use of the full amount of real estate given it, no pillar bars.

I don't know if it's coincidental or not, but it's sure funny that you chose to keep "retch" together when describing the 8300's video output. :)

I think his point is that if the 8300's outputting 1080i or 720p, it'd sure be nice for it to make use of the entire 16:9 frame. Not by st-retch-ing the same 4:3 GUI elements, but by actually presenting a 16:9 menu. Make use of the full amount of real estate given it, no pillar bars.
FYI, "retch" was in reference to the Tivo's s-t-ret-c-h GUI mode. Tivo will s-t-ret-c-h the GUI on HD output modes. It's still a 4:3 GUI.
Show me ANY DVR with 16x9 output that is not stretched. I've never seen one, but I haven't seen the all - yet.

As for cable card devices, Now that SA has released a 2.0 spec, I would have to read up on it for any relavant issues. As it is, cable card is only a de-cryptor device of streams generated by the receiving device (tuner or STB). 2.0 is supposed to allow the correct frequency back to the node for the stream generated by the tuner device to communicate correctly.

vegggas

vegggas, I think you misunderstood his humor, "retch" as in retched GUI. :)

BTW. In the future, I think I'll PM my response to you and let you wordsmith it. You said a lot of the same things I did, but you said them a lot better without the emotion I end up putting in. I can't seem to break myself of that habit. :)

Actually yes I would take stretched over 4:3, but since its a HD box, then use a 16:9 menu system. I'm confused on why all the HD boxes don't do this. I'm going to be able to use another 8300 soon, but what I remember is the menu that shows the recorded shows, is very small. But, I will need to look again since its been awhile now.

As far as what I read so far about the SDV stuff was that part of the what makes it work, would have to built into the hardware of the box. Of course I think thats still being argued about.

I guess it's just odd to me that a 5 year old Tivo worked 10x better and had much more robust features than a box that is just a year or so old. I think that is more SA's fault than the cable company.

Even though the 8300 is relatively new, the interface is exactly the same as SA boxes 6-7 years old. That's the real issue.

We can only hope SA will put some effort into redesigning it sometime soon.

The menu is still 1.5 hours wide and 5 channels deep. Stretching it to fill the screen won't change that.

Weren't there some tie-ins between CableCard 2.0's bi-directional messaging and the switched video stuff?A two-way host can access SDV channels. However, the specs for two-way hosts haven't been finalized yet. NCTA and CEA are still negotiating / finalizing.

Wow. Well at least I can't complain about lack of response.

As for the notion that Tivo's patent holdings are the cause my issues: I say: you speak in bollocks. Unless Tivo holds a patent on satisfying customers, I don't think patent encumberance comes into play. The things I'm talking about are simply careless engineering; they're 'bugs' plain and simple.

The 'kick-to-live' or 'kick-to-menu' bug is the most egregious example. There isn't any reasonable explanation why a bug this big should exist in a consumer product. Almost everyone that owns a DVR uses it for '20-minute timeshifting' aka. letting the live broadcast get enough ahead so that you have enough buffer to FF through all the commercials. This is bread-and-butter DVR stuff, and it's broken on this device. Also keep in mind that this bug is literally _years_ old. Unacceptable and indefensible.

The 'start-from-the-current-point-in-the-recording' "feature" is when you select an in-progess recording from the list and it starts playing from the current point rather than the beginning of the program. Is this the desired behavior for anyone? If I wanted to start watching at the current point in the program _I WOULDN"T RECORD IT IN THE FIRST PLACE_ . This is stupid, stupid, stupid. Also Unacceptable, also idefensible. It may be fixed now, but that fact that it has taken this long is ludicrous.

The interface problems are also easily fixable and reflect the 'I don't care' attitude of the whole device. Does Tivo hold a secret patent on anti-aliased type? on pleasing color schemes?

This whole device reeks of being designed in a Vietnamese sweatshop. At no point does it feel as if thought or care went into it's interface design or feature-set. I'm not sure I understand the loyalty shown to such an obviously crappy product. Are you SA stockholders? I don't care _who_ makes the device; as a consumer I simply want something that works. I wasn't specifically posting to bash the device; I was trying to find out if it was worthwhile to grit my teeth and bear the glaring limitations until a fix was available. Unfortunately, I just can't write or talk about this DVR without getting frustrated.

Wow. Well at least I can't complain about lack of response.

As for the notion that Tivo's patent holdings are the cause my issues: I say: you speak in bollocks. Unless Tivo holds a patent on satisfying customers, I don't think patent encumberance comes into play. The things I'm talking about are simply careless engineering; they're 'bugs' plain and simple.

The 'kick-to-live' or 'kick-to-menu' bug is the most egregious example. There isn't any reasonable explanation why a bug this big should exist in a consumer product. Almost everyone that owns a DVR uses it for '20-minute timeshifting' aka. letting the live broadcast get enough ahead so that you have enough buffer to FF through all the commercials. This is bread-and-butter DVR stuff, and it's broken on this device. Also keep in mind that this bug is literally _years_ old. Unacceptable and indefensible.

The 'start-from-the-current-point-in-the-recording' "feature" is when you select an in-progess recording from the list and it starts playing from the current point rather than the beginning of the program. Is this the desired behavior for anyone? If I wanted to start watching at the current point in the program _I WOULDN"T RECORD IT IN THE FIRST PLACE_ . This is stupid, stupid, stupid. Also Unacceptable, also idefensible. It may be fixed now, but that fact that it has taken this long is ludicrous.

The interface problems are also easily fixable and reflect the 'I don't care' attitude of the whole device. Does Tivo hold a secret patent on anti-aliased type? on pleasing color schemes?

This whole device reeks of being designed in a Vietnamese sweatshop. At no point does it feel as if thought or care went into it's interface design or feature-set. I'm not sure I understand the loyalty shown to such an obviously crappy product. Are you SA stockholders? I don't care _who_ makes the device; as a consumer I simply want something that works. I wasn't specifically posting to bash the device; I was trying to find out if it was worthwhile to grit my teeth and bear the glaring limitations until a fix was available. Unfortunately, I just can't write or talk about this DVR without getting frustrated.

Here we go again... :(

We all agree that there are shortcoming on this device. Whether they are minor or major are strictly a matter of opinion. There have been many posts as to why the shortcomings are still there. Believe them or not, it's your choice. You are obviously aware of what they are, yet you STILL insist on posting the SAME rantings that we've seen numerous times, even though you state that this is not the reason that you posted. You simply would like to "find out if it was worthwhile to grit my teeth and bear the glaring limitations..." How is anyone here going to help you make such a personal decision? Especially from your obviously already slanted frame of reference?

A two-way host can access SDV channels. However, the specs for two-way hosts haven't been finalized yet. NCTA and CEA are still negotiating / finalizing.

"Two-way host" being defined within the CableCard 2.0 spec, OCAP, or something else outside of those elements ?

Just trying to figure out how the 8300 (and TiVo, for that matter) will be able to interact (if at all) with the switched video stuff coming down the pike.

Here we go again... :(

We all agree that there are shortcoming on this device. Whether they are minor or major are strictly a matter of opinion. There have been many posts as to why the shortcomings are still there. Believe them or not, it's your choice. You are obviously aware of what they are, yet you STILL insist on posting the SAME rantings that we've seen numerous times, even though you state that this is not the reason that you posted. You simply would like to "find out if it was worthwhile to grit my teeth and bear the glaring limitations..." How is anyone here going to help you make such a personal decision? Especially from your obviously already slanted frame of reference?

To be honest, no one really addressed his questions. All he received was the usual "here we go again", "go to a TiVo forum", or "stop dredging up what we've already discussed 10,000 times". He didn't even get a cordial "these issues have been addressed, please use the search feature to find out more". The door was abruptly slammed in his face. What is old hat to the regulars here is something new to him. We should all try to remember that before we stomp on someone.


to ja30278 :
your answers are as follows : yes, we all know the box has big time issues. yes, the issues have been resolved in a future software release, which you may or may not ever see in your lifetime for various reasons. no, there really aren't a set of workarounds for the goofy behaviour this box exhibits, you just have to live with them (if you choose to do so).

your options are as follows : 1) suck it up with the 8300, it's not going to get any better any time soon, or 2) use something else (Motorola or TiVo product).

"Two-way host" being defined within the CableCard 2.0 spec, OCAP, or something else outside of those elements ?

Just trying to figure out how the 8300 (and TiVo, for that matter) will be able to interact (if at all) with the switched video stuff coming down the pike.Existing cable boxes (SciAtl 8300, Moto 6412, etc) ... to the user SDV will look / act just like any other channel. When a cable company implements SDV, they push the appropriate software to their boxes and ... all is good. Existing boxes have the hardware to communicate back / forth with the headend (OOB QPSK) ... they just need a software update (which the vendor provides). The implementation is actually very similar to VOD ... any existing box that can get VOD should get SDV (except, to the end-user SDV will look just like a regular channel).

As to CE devices ... Sorry, yes, when I said two-way host I was referring to OpenCable (CableCard, OCAP, etc.). CE products (like Tivo). One-way hosts can't access SDV ... two-way hosts should be able to (via cable-provided OCAP software, yes).

As to what this means to Tivo ... well, lots of discussion over at TCF:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=296014
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=294257
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=295619
Etc.

Probably a better place than this thread.

Existing cable boxes (SciAtl 8300, Moto 6412, etc) ... to the user SDV will look / act just like any other channel. When a cable company implements SDV, they push the appropriate software to their boxes and ... all is good. Existing boxes have the hardware to communicate back / forth with the headend (OOB QPSK) ... they just need a software update (which the vendor provides). The implementation is actually very similar to VOD ... any existing box that can get VOD should get SDV (except, to the end-user SDV will look just like a regular channel).

As to CE devices ... Sorry, yes, when I said two-way host I was referring to OpenCable (CableCard, OCAP, etc.). CE products (like Tivo). One-way hosts can't access SDV ... two-way hosts should be able to (via cable-provided OCAP software, yes).



Gotcha. That's exactly the information I was looking for. Thanks.

So, the approach is nearly analgous to IP multicast data transmissions, and IGMP group join/leave functionality. Except now the IP routers are replaced by video switches.

Heading over to TCF to read up some more.

Paul: Thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for: a concise summary of the current status of the fixes, and an appraisal of the likelihood of my seeing them. It's hard to get that kind of a 'state of the union' out of an 80pg thread.

In case anyone is curious, I probably _will_ go back to DirecTV until I can't use my DirecTivo any more, or until my cable system moves to Moxi or some other DVR solution. Maybe I'll build a mythTV box so at least I can _do_ something about bugs like this. The devil is in the details, or in this case, the lack thereof.

Paul: Thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for: a concise summary of the current status of the fixes, and an appraisal of the likelihood of my seeing them. It's hard to get that kind of a 'state of the union' out of an 80pg thread.

In case anyone is curious, I probably _will_ go back to DirecTV until I can't use my DirecTivo any more, or until my cable system moves to Moxi or some other DVR solution. Maybe I'll build a mythTV box so at least I can _do_ something about bugs like this. The devil is in the details, or in this case, the lack thereof.

No problem.

Although your fall back plans require you giving something up. 1) The DirecTiVo is probably the single best box I've ever used, but it's only SD (no HDTV) and you'll have to deal with the overcompression on DirecTV. 2) MythTV will only be able to record stuff that's "in the clear" or unencrypted, SD or HDTV.

ja30278, Want facts? Echostar just paid out $73 Million in patent lawsuits to Tivo because their DVR product was too close to Tivo in functionality and used a "multimedia time warp" feature that allows one to playback a delayed recording. Immediately DirecTV announced they will continue the support of the Tivo product and continue PAYING shared royalties so that they are not sued over their new DVR product.
SA has to make and design a product that in NO-WAY resembles what Tivo is doing or face an even bigger lawsuit. Any similar functionality has to have royalties paid to Tivo by SA AND the local cable co.

Some Tivo trademarked names that CAN'T be used by any other company
http://www.tivo.com/resources/legal_requirements.asp
Active Preview™
Season Pass™
TrickPlay™
Home Media Option™
Personal TV™
TiVo Rewards™
Series2™
TiVoToGo™
You've got a life. TiVo gets it.™
Thumbs Down™
Thumbs Up™
Tivo EXCLUSIVES http://www.tivo.com/resources/ca_messaging.asp
WishList® searches -
a TiVo® service exclusive that works like a search engine to find the programs you're interested in

Season Pass ™ recordings -
only from TiVo® service, gets every episode of all your favorite shows, minus the repeats
There's a lot more in litigation right now, but you can't use a season pass or a search function. SA has similar items, but based on an entirelty different platform, their IPG, which is the same for all their Digital STB's.

The SA design came out in about 1996. At least that's when I first tested it. The design is universal and can be used on all of their digital STB's. They had to build their DVR (the 8000) on that platform in 2001/02 to avoid litigation from Tivo, who just enforced their patents in 2001 for the next 8 years. The 8300 came along in 2003/04 and had to follow the same constraints.
The new design will be OCAP. 3rd part developers can make OCAP designed functions that yu can purchase as you see fit. Want a Tivo interface for a DVR? Buy a OCAP desiged STB and purchase a Tivo software package and monthly license to install on your machine when it becomes available. However, Tivo has to make it available, there has to be hardware to support it, and the local cable co has to be OCAP ready. Read my previous long thread (yesterday) about OCAP.
Until then, anything coming out is a work around to the patents.

vegggas

So, the approach is nearly analgous to IP multicast data transmissions, and IGMP group join/leave functionality. Except now the IP routers are replaced by video switches.That's one way of thinking of it. Although, when you start getting into implementation-specifics ... well, nothing is ever quite analgous. Also, there's a few different takes / strategies / thoughts on SDV right now ... and different vendors have their own differences ...

Anyway, lots of different white-papers and articles out there if you want to go to that level. Some good links in the TCF threads. Also, good whitepapers from various vendors ... for example, SciAtl/Cisco:
http://www.cisco.com/application/pdf/en/us/guest/netsol/ns457/c654/cdccont_0900aecd80458e33.pdf

ja30278, Want facts? Echostar just paid out $73 Million in patent lawsuits to Tivo because their DVR product was too close to Tivo in functionality and used a "multimedia time warp" feature that allows one to playback a delayed recording. Immediately DirecTV announced they will continue the support of the Tivo product and continue PAYING shared royalties so that they are not sued over their new DVR product.

Sorry, vegggas, but this is one of the few times where you got your facts wrong.

TiVo's win over EchoStar had to do with a few provisions of the patent in question. I don't believe it had to do with the "time warp" stuff in general, but a particular implementation item (how the audio and video were stored on-device, and how those parts were folded back together to form a coherent playback).

Also, DirecTV and TiVo re-upped their contract the day BEFORE the case went to the jury. Not after the decision was handed down. A small but important distinction.


Some Tivo trademarked names that CAN'T be used by any other company
http://www.tivo.com/resources/legal_requirements.asp

Tivo EXCLUSIVES http://www.tivo.com/resources/ca_messaging.asp

Now we start getting into the TiVo bashing, I guess... I'm sorry vegggas, I really value your input to this thread, but this goes a little too far.

You mean TiVo actually gets to call their features with a name that can't be used by someone else? Holy crap! Next thing you know, Ford won't be able to make a car called the Accord! Kidding aside, trademarking is something that's been around for a few centuries now, and to imply TiVo is evil for trademarking the name of some features is joke-worthy.


The new design will be OCAP. 3rd part developers can make OCAP designed functions that yu can purchase as you see fit. Want a Tivo interface for a DVR? Buy a OCAP designed STB and purchase a Tivo software package and monthly license to install on your machine when it becomes available. However, Tivo has to make it available, there has to be hardware to support it, and the local cable co has to be OCAP ready. Read my previous long thread (yesterday) about OCAP. Until then, anything coming out is a work around to the patents.

In fact, you'll be able to do so on Comcast systems in the not-so-distant future (late this year, I believe). TiVo and Comcast signed a deal where TiVo will OCAP-ify their stuff and slap it on the existing Motorola STB. You'll have the choice to use the regular Motorola guide, or the TiVo guide. You won't have to buy it, you'll still be able to lease the box from your cable co.

It didn't appear that TiVo dragged Comcast or Motorola kicking and screaming to the bargaining table to do so. In fact, TiVo was probably more willing to get that deal done, since it immediately followed DirecTV's decision to go their own way (NDS) and make their own DVRs (which have been getting lambasted by users due to the multitudes of bugs they're suffering). Which could also be why DirecTV and TiVo re-upped, since DirecTV knows their stuff isn't ready for prime time either.

It takes two to tango... SA could make a similar deal and make everyone happy.

TiVo and Comcast signed a deal where TiVo will OCAP-ify their stuff and slap it on the existing Motorola STB. You'll have the choice to use the regular Motorola guide, or the TiVo guide.BTW, AFAIK there has been no (public) information about whether Tivo is providing an OCAP-based application or a box-specific native application. Lots of speculation (both ways) ... but ... don't assume the Tivo implementation is OCAP (unless you have some info I don't).

It could be OCAP ... it could be a native app. My guess is the latter (although it certainly could be the former).

A post this long and speculative needs a lot of quoted documentation - Please forgive the extra long post.
Paul, I'm not arguing, just pointing out where my facts came from. Having read many of my posts, you should be able to surmise that try to be neutral whenever possible. Given the same info that I read, you may, or may not agree, but it's how I interpret the press releases [shown in quotes and linked to original source{tivo}].
Sorry, vegggas, but this is one of the few times where you got your facts wrong.

TiVo's win over EchoStar had to do with a few provisions of the patent in question. I don't believe it had to do with the "time warp" stuff in general, but a particular implementation item (how the audio and video were stored on-device, and how those parts were folded back together to form a coherent playback).

Also, DirecTV and TiVo re-upped their contract the day BEFORE the case went to the jury. Not after the decision was handed down. A small but important distinction.

I'm merely reporting what's on Tivo's press release and every other news source... If you know something different...
http://www.tivo.com/cms_static/press_87.html
ALVISO, CA — April 13, 2006 — TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ: TIVO), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), today offered the following comment on the jury's decision in its favor in its lawsuit against EchoStar Communications Corporation in the United States District Court, Eastern District of Texas:

"TiVo is pleased that the jury found that TiVo's pioneering time warping patent is valid and that EchoStar has been infringing on our intellectual property. TiVo is particularly gratified that the jury found that EchoStar willfully infringed on our patent and the consequences their actions had on our overall business. This decision recognizes that our intellectual property is valuable and will ensure that moving forward EchoStar and any others that want to use our patented technology will be required to provide us with compensation.

TiVo intends to seek a permanent injunction against EchoStar's DVR products.

TiVo is built on a strong foundation of innovative technology and intellectual property. We now hold more than 87 patents in our worldwide patent portfolio and have more than 138 patent applications pending. TiVo has a long list of licensees in the consumer electronics, cable and satellite markets, and we will continue to license our technology under appropriate circumstances and arrangements. We will also continue to vigorously defend our intellectual property for the benefit of our licensees and shareholders."

DirecTV saw that Echostar was going to lose the lawsuit and that they were going to be next. They did a pre-emptive strike to prevent a formal public lawsuit to pay off Tivo and "TiVo and DIRECTV agree not to assert patent rights against the other" . A small distinction on the date is correct, but this was a long trial and all three parties knew what was going to happen when the jury handed back a verdict. The decision was done a day earlier to prevent Tivo from announcing that the victory would help them with their patent suit against DirecTV.
http://www.tivo.com/cms_static/press_85.html
04/12/2006
TIVO AND DIRECTV AGREE TO EXTEND RELATIONSHIP FOR THREE YEARS
Agreement Guarantees Quality Service for Existing DIRECTV TiVo Subscribers ;
Also Addresses Intellectual Property

ALVISO, CA — April 12, 2006 — TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ: TIVO ), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), and DIRECTV, Inc. (NYSE:DTV), the nation's leading digital television service provider, today announced a three-year extension to the TiVo-DIRECTV commercial agreement.

Existing DIRECTV TiVo subscribers will be able to continue to receive the award-winning TiVo® service, with TiVo providing ongoing maintenance and support. In addition, TiVo and DIRECTV agree not to assert patent rights against the other. The agreement also extends the advertising relationship between the two companies. DIRECTV will continue to service existing DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service. While specific financial terms of the agreement were not disclosed, the recurring monthly economics of the agreement are similar to the economics for DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service activated since 2003.

"We are pleased to have reached an agreement with DIRECTV that will allow us to continue to provide our service to the more than 2 million DIRECTV TiVo households," said TiVo CEO Tom Rogers . "As the pioneer in the DVR market, we have created a service that is highly valued by consumers because of our technology, the wide range of our unique features and the unparalleled ease of our user experience. This agreement reflects TiVo's popularity among DIRECTV subscribers and importantly respects the value of our intellectual property as well."

"By extending our agreement with TiVo, we are ensuring quality support for DIRECTV customers who already own a DIRECTV TiVo unit," said Rômulo Pontual, DIRECTV's chief technology officer. "We are pleased to cooperate with TiVo in a way that will best serve DIRECTV and our DIRECTV TiVo customers."




Now we start getting into the TiVo bashing, I guess... I'm sorry vegggas, I really value your input to this thread, but this goes a little too far.

You mean TiVo actually gets to call their features with a name that can't be used by someone else? Holy crap! Next thing you know, Ford won't be able to make a car called the Accord! Kidding aside, trademarking is something that's been around for a few centuries now, and to imply TiVo is evil for trademarking the name of some features is joke-worthy.

If you look at the links in my thread and what you quoted, they are from TiVO's website for legal and trademark usage. They do not allow anyone to use the term "Season Pass" for DVR recording, or allow advanced tivo search functions for DVR recording without Tivo royalties and agreements. This is at the heart of a lot of complaints from former Tivo users.
I am not bashing Tivo, as I try to remain unbiased. I'm just merely pointing to the reasons that the previous poster wanted to know WHY he couldn't have those EXCLUSIVE Tivo features on his 8300 and that posters were apologetic to SA and thier DVR's.



In fact, you'll be able to do so on Comcast systems in the not-so-distant future (late this year, I believe). TiVo and Comcast signed a deal where TiVo will OCAP-ify their stuff and slap it on the existing Motorola STB. You'll have the choice to use the regular Motorola guide, or the TiVo guide. You won't have to buy it, you'll still be able to lease the box from your cable co.
I did not exclude those options, but to use the Tivo guide on the current STB's, you will have to pay a premium (estimated at $10 per DVR per month) over existing monthly payments. As OCAP is available and devices are able to be purchased from electronics stores, you can pick your hardware, then pick your software, each at differing price points. Currently, at this time, none of those options are available, so I said "when available" meaning that all the pieces have to be in place first.


It didn't appear that TiVo dragged Comcast or Motorola kicking and screaming to the bargaining table to do so. In fact, TiVo was probably more willing to get that deal done, since it immediately followed DirecTV's decision to go their own way (NDS) and make their own DVRs (which have been getting lambasted by users due to the multitudes of bugs they're suffering). Which could also be why DirecTV and TiVo re-upped, since DirecTV knows their stuff isn't ready for prime time either.

It takes two to tango... SA could make a similar deal and make everyone happy. This is a decision that has to be made by the cable provider for the end user. SA and Moto can't just roll out Tivo like agreements to multitudes of different customers (cable co's). Each customer has to have an agreement. Comcast is big enough [the biggest] to be able to leverage a deal among a percentage of it's 23 million subscribers.

vegggas

BTW, AFAIK there has been no (public) information about whether Tivo is providing an OCAP-based application or a box-specific native application. Lots of speculation (both ways) ... but ... don't assume the Tivo implementation is OCAP (unless you have some info I don't).

It could be OCAP ... it could be a native app. My guess is the latter (although it certainly could be the former).

Yeah, you're right. Incorrectly stated. As with lots of other details, we're in the dark concerning all things Series3 at the moment.

This press release has so many interesting items pertaining to "the 8300's lack of features", it needs to have it's own post.
Tivo Press release (http://www.tivo.com/cms_static/press_87.html)

ALVISO, CA — April 13, 2006 — TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ: TIVO), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), today offered the following comment on the jury's decision in its favor in its lawsuit against EchoStar Communications Corporation in the United States District Court, Eastern District of Texas:

"TiVo is pleased that the jury found that TiVo's pioneering time warping patent is valid and that EchoStar has been infringing on our intellectual property. TiVo is particularly gratified that the jury found that EchoStar willfully infringed on our patent and the consequences their actions had on our overall business. This decision recognizes that our intellectual property is valuable and will ensure that moving forward EchoStar and any others that want to use our patented technology will be required to provide us with compensation.

TiVo intends to seek a permanent injunction against EchoStar's DVR products.

TiVo is built on a strong foundation of innovative technology and intellectual property. We now hold more than 87 patents in our worldwide patent portfolio and have more than 138 patent applications pending. TiVo has a long list of licensees in the consumer electronics, cable and satellite markets, and we will continue to license our technology under appropriate circumstances and arrangements. We will also continue to vigorously defend our intellectual property for the benefit of our licensees and shareholders."
vegggas

Paul, I'm not arguing, just pointing out where my facts came from. Having read many of my posts, you should be able to surmise that try to be neutral whenever possible. Given the same info that I read, you may, or may not agree, but it's how I interpret the press releases [shown in quotes and linked to original source{tivo}].

Agreed. You're definitely a wealth of information who always makes the best effort to present information in an even-handed fashion.


I'm merely reporting what's on Tivo's press release and every other news source... If you know something different...

Right. It's just a press release. They're not going to go into the gory technical details of where the actual patent violation occurred. I was following the trial thread over on TCF. I'll have to dig in there to get the exact information, or court transcripts, but I assure you they're there.

DirecTV saw that Echostar was going to lose the lawsuit and that they were going to be next. They did a pre-emptive strike to prevent a formal public lawsuit to pay off Tivo and "TiVo and DIRECTV agree not to assert patent rights against the other" . A small distinction on the date is correct, but this was a long trial and all three parties knew what was going to happen when the jury handed back a verdict. The decision was done a day earlier to prevent Tivo from announcing that the victory would help them with their patent suit against DirecTV.

Well, the trial was only 2 weeks in length, so I don't know that you could call that "long"... We won't ever know who knew what and when, and jury trials are never a 100% certainty (see : O.J. Simpson).


I did not exclude those options, but to use the Tivo guide on the current STB's, you will have to pay a premium (estimated at $10 per DVR per month) over existing monthly payments. As OCAP is available and devices are able to be purchased from electronics stores, you can pick your hardware, then pick your software, each at differing price points. Currently, at this time, none of those options are available, so I said "when available" meaning that all the pieces have to be in place first.

Well, how much of a premium the TiVo will be remains to be seen. I thought I read somewhere from the Comcast CEO that he thought the additional cost would be on the order of $5. That was probably 3-4 months ago, so things may have changed by then. Point is, it's not a world of difference from the usual DVR fee.

I'm still having a hard time believing that the cable co's are going to allow 3rd party gear to be hooked up to their networks. They're so used to controlling every facet of the network. On one hand, it'll be a bitch to support. On the other hand, they can always point the finger at the 3rd party gear and say "not our fault".

This is a decision that has to be made by the cable provider for the end user. SA and Moto can't just roll out Tivo like agreements to multitudes of different customers (cable co's). Each customer has to have an agreement. Comcast is big enough [the biggest] to be able to leverage a deal among a percentage of it's 23 million subscribers.

Are you sure about that ? Why couldn't Motorola/SA/Toshiba/Pace/whoever license the TiVo software ? It's just software. It's not the usual stuff that carriage agreements get people all hot and bothered about (must carry, locals, networks, public access, etc). I'm simply asking a question, since I really haven't the faintest idea of what the implications of these agreements are.


I'll try to follow up on the trial details ASAP.

I love this. Even with quotes, press releases, etc., folks still want to argue. Tivo settled with Echostar, period. And they finally negotiated with SA for some of the features that are in 1.88.x.x and later releases. Whether SA sat on their asses or Tivo wasn't playing nice with ALL competitors is up for grabs and we'll never know. Tivo lovers will "think" Tivo can do no wrong or stiffle competiton whereas I choose to believe otherwise. Tivo lovers will believe that all this with Comcast would be happening even if DirecTV had not severed their exclusive ties. That's just "bollocks" (BS to me), pure and simple, they've had years to get into the cable business.

The bottomline is that NONE of this has anything to do with any tips or tricks on how to get the most out of the 8300, but it does add to my postcount the thread length. :)

Flame away.

PS. vegggas, now you know why I didn't go looking for any press releases, etc. I'm sorry you got dragged into this. I thought it would stop after your first post, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I even tried taking it to PM, but just when I was going to respond I saw what was going on in this thread and said to h*ll with it.

To be honest, no one really addressed his questions. All he received was the usual "here we go again", "go to a TiVo forum", or "stop dredging up what we've already discussed 10,000 times". He didn't even get a cordial "these issues have been addressed, please use the search feature to find out more". The door was abruptly slammed in his face. What is old hat to the regulars here is something new to him. We should all try to remember that before we stomp on someone.

Paul,

I guess I totally missed the "questions" he had. It all seemed like total flame to me. :p

bcoombs, he only had ONE question:
I hope this isn't counted as a troll, but does anyone have an idea when the god-&!&* 'kick to menu' bug is being addressed? I've seen conflicting reports that it's being fixed/been fixed/in process, but nothing definitive. Is this in the 1.8.8 update? I'm an NC Adelphia subscriber if that makes any difference.The rest of his post was total RANT and he identified it as such. If he had phrased his question without the terms "troll" and " god-&!&* ", and left out the rant, he might have gotten a simple answer. However, in light of his latest post, IMHO that would not have satisfied him. Besides, I haven't had this much fun reading this thread for some time now. :)

I love this. Even with quotes, press releases, etc., folks still want to argue. Tivo settled with Echostar, period. And they finally negotiated with SA for some of the features that are in 1.88.x.x and later releases. Whether SA sat on their asses or Tivo wasn't playing nice with ALL competitors is up for grabs and we'll never know. Tivo lovers will "think" Tivo can do no wrong or stiffle competiton whereas I choose to believe otherwise. Tivo lovers will believe that all this with Comcast would be happening even if DirecTV had not severed their exclusive ties. That's just "bollocks" (BS to me), pure and simple, they've had years to get into the cable business.

The bottomline is that NONE of this has anything to do with any tips or tricks on how to get the most out of the 8300, but it does add to my postcount the thread length. :)

Flame away.

PS. vegggas, now you know why I didn't go looking for any press releases, etc. I'm sorry you got dragged into this. I thought it would stop after your first post, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I even tried taking it to PM, but just when I was going to respond I saw what was going on in this thread and said to h*ll with it.

Tivo did not settle with Echo Star. Tivo won the first phase of its court battle with Echo Star. Tivo is still purueing the second phase that would prevent Echo Star from renting out the Echo Star DVR. Echo Star will appeal the verdict and is counter sueing Tivo claiming the patent is unenforcable.

I can't find any evidence of an agreement between SA and Tivo. If anyone knows of an agreement between SA and Tivo, please post a link to this. It would be nice to know what Tivo technology SA would like to be able to use.

You're absolutely right about Echo Star, got a bit carried away trying to make a point, my apologies.

Anyway, I can't find the press releases either, SA's website only goes back to April 2005. Maybe my memory is faulty, maybe it was simply a post in one of the HD forums, who knows? I did find a very short list (http://www.ghostweather.com/blog/2005/03/tivos-patents.html) of some of Tivo's recent patent approvals though. It may not be obvious to you and others, but from this short list, it looks to me like Tivo probably owns the rights to just about every DVR feature there is, at least in the specific way their feature works.

I don't even know if it's possible to get a complete list or a list of everyone who has a license agreement for a given patent, for that matter. But the point is that much of this stuff is patented by someone and, unless a licensing agreement is reached, that option cannot be included in a competitors product no matter how simple or obvious we think the option is. The fact that we think the Kick To Live and Start From Beginning features are rather obvious for a DVR does not negate the legalities of licensing those features for whomever owns the patents.

Also, the fact that a patent holder chooses to reach an agreement with one competitor does not mean that they are willing to reach an agreement with all competitors, even at higher licensing fees. Admittedly, I am not a Tivo supporter and I've stated as much many times. From what I've read about them as a company over the years, I believe they would not negotiate in what I consider good faith with either SA or cableco's, at least not until their exclusive deal with DirecTV ended.

With OCAP, they now see an opportunity to get their interface on cable DVRs, including the 8300 AFAIK. I see this as a good thing, I just don't like the fact that it's coming now when I don't know of one good reason why they didn't enter the cable market a long time ago other than they didn't need to (and no one would give in to their demands) whereas now they do. They still have the best interface, but more and more users are finding that cheaper alternatives, like the 8300, work well enough for the money. Even some die-hard Tivo users have admitted that the 8300 does a good enough job. Even more will be taking a hard look at cost when the S3 hits the streets, rental policy or not.

As with everything I post, in all but the first post anyway, this is pure conjecture on my part and what I've come to believe over the years. No one has ever said the 8300 is on the same plane as Tivo, but this is an 8300 thread and bashing is really off-topic and not needed. Short-comings can be pointed out without using derogatory terms and I could do a better job of controlling my emotions on this subject, but I generally respond in kind. That shouldn't detract from the point being made though and pointing out erroroneus statements in a response does not automatically negate the point being made.

My apologies to anyone I may gave offeneded, but I am who I am and I'm quite sure my emotions will get the beter of me in the future. You are all free to ignore my posts, but most of the offending ones wouldn't even be posted if folks would simply stay closer to topic and not wander in the world of My Tivo Is Better Than Your 8300. If you want to bash and rant and whatever, I'll be here to present the other side, just like in politics. :)

Well I've had it. I've had HDTV for over a year now and I'm already tired of all the crap. Got rid of the 42 incher and will be rid of COX and the 8300hd in a few weeks. No new programming, no bug fixes, no MR why bother with it any more.
I'm going back to SD DTIVO with my Syntax HVX in panoramic mode and that will do just fine.

Good Bye to you all!

I agree that Tivo owns most of the DVR patents and that makes it hard for SA to implement some of Tivo's features. Also, ReplayTV and other companies have some DVR patents.

The following article sums this up.

Industry braces for a spate of lawsuits or settlements as TiVo scans the landscape.

April 17, 2006
from Red Herring

After a weekend’s worth of analysis of the fallout from TiVo’s landmark victory over EchoStar, the telecommunications industry seems certain of a couple of things: TiVo will either file many more lawsuits or it will negotiate quite a few settlements, or some combination of the two.

Many expect TiVo to either sue or settle with Cisco Systems, which is in the process of acquiring set-top box manufacturer Scientific-Atlanta, and Motorola, the leading set-top box provider in the United States.

Click here (http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=16525&hed=TiVo+May+Replay+Lawsuit&sector=Industries&subsector=EntertainmentAndMedia) for the entire article.

Note: I think Cisco Systems has finished the acquistion of Scientific-Atlanta.

I think it's ridiculouse how widely patents such as Tivo's are being enforced and applied. Tivo has patents on things such as "watching one recorded program while recording another" and they are trying force other companies to pay massive sums for doing the same thing, but DISH's and other's DVR technology was developed COMPLETELY independently of Tivo's. The hardware, firmware, and software code in the various DVR's for cable and satellite are COMPLETELY different from Tivo's. These patents are just TOO broad. It's like the inventor of the "locomotive" to get a patent on "wheeled, powered transport vehicle" and then trying to extort money from the inventor of the auotmobile because technically his invention does the same thing. Now, i will admit that that is a bit of a wild analogy and not completely fitting, but it does get my point across. Cable companies and Dish companies came up with these features completely independently of Tivo given their customers' wishes. Tivo wants a huge monopoly on the DVR services, but they cannot even offer what cable and satellite providers can. The problem is that Tivo is not even a "TV provider," so they are basically saying that since they were the first to patent these ideas, ALL people who want to enjoy them have to pay $100+ for TV service (cable or satellite) and then buy the TiVo service for an EXTRA $12 or so/month and have the hassle of a much less convenient/capable system in which at least 2 boxes are set up. So, it seems like Tivo just wants EVERYONE to jump through hoops so they can get more money.

I will concede however, that if i were the CEO of Tivo, i would go after DISH and all other companies providing the DVR services, because it is vital to Tivo's survival. I just think the way the system (patents), at least the way it is implemented, is kind of weak and tends to screw either big companies, or the consumer.

As promised :

These are all snippets from TCF's Dale Dietrich's blog, who is a practicing IP laywer :HERE (http://www.daledietrich.com/imedia/Apr06.htm)



DAY2 : Former electrical engineering professor Jerry Gibson testified that on his analysis of the two boxes, the Echostar box used 11 technologies claimed in TiVo's patent. ...testified about the TiVo media switch at the heart of the patent. ... Lead inventor Barton described how he took a prototype to Echostar early on. He left the prototype with promises it would be returned the next day. It never was. Barton also testified about later sessions where the box was opened and TiVo explained to EchoStar engineers how the technology worked.

Let's see... Echostar had a prototype, was shown how it worked internally, and didn't give it back. So, TiVo was more than willing to share the tech involved and partner up with EchoStar.

The media switch is the heart of the patent.


DAY3 : ...compared six EchoStar PVRs and believed they all contained infringing "trick play" functionality covered by TiVo's patent, including replaying live broadcasts in slow motion, recording of the current live programming, fast-forwarding, freeze-framing, pausing and re-starting live broadcasts.

Gee, doesn't the 8300 have all of those features ? Why'd they chose to include those features, and not anything else ?


DAY4 : Estimating a loss of $1.00 per month (the royalty rate paid by DirecTV) for each of the 4.1 million remaining Echostar subscribers. .... Stuart West, TiVo's VP of finance testified that TiVo spent $193 million on research and development.

So, TiVo's licensing fees aren't insane ? A buck a day ? Also, TiVo spent and arm and a leg developing this technology.


DAY 5: Echostar called its first witness, Dave Kummer, VP of Engineering and Technology. His testimony revolved around the development of EchoStar's 7100 and 7200 set-top boxes that had a pause feature before PVRs existed. He testified that other features such as rewind, fast-forward and record were added to the 7200 model in December of 1999. He testified that when Barton approached Echostar in 2001 or 2002 about building a set-top box for Echostar, the company already had its own.

Outside of the shady timeline given by the EchoStar suit, not so much solid information given (you'll see this pattern a lot from the E* guys).


DAY 6 : Echostar called three witnesses. First up, Tom Rhyne, TiVo's Expert witness - a retired electrical engineering professor from Texas A&M. Rhyne testified that while there were some similarities between TiVo's patents and Echostar's products, there were a number of ways the Echostar box differed from the functions outlined in TiVo's patent. Ryan, [Dale's note: stating the obvious], said EchoStar boxes do not convert analog signals into MPEG streams. He pointed out that Echostar's boxes do not separate audio and video components, as do TiVo products [Dale's note, since Echostar's product is an all-digital end-to-end, why would it?] and therefore do not reassemble them as the TiVo patent claims [Dale's note, the unstated premise being that this is all the TiVo patent claims]. Since MPEG is already in digital format, there is no need to do the two-step conversation as is needed on TiVo boxes that use analogue inputs. Rhyne said EchoStar products do not have/use a media switch as TiVo alleges.

Lots of good stuff here. Echostar's entire argument focuses around the mis-assumption that TiVo's patent only covers converting analog -> digital and subsequent storage to MPEG-2. Ummm.... wrong!


DAY 7 : The last Echostar witness to testify Friday was Dan Landreth, Echostar's V.P. of Engineering. He testified that in 1997 he and others from his prior company, Media Four, made a "sales pitch" to Echostar about their MRX1 "media stream receiver" invention which he claimed had "time-shifting" capabilities. He demonstrated the MRX1 to the jury. Landreth said that Echostar subsequently purchased Media Four and all of its I.P. Under cross-examination Landreth said that Echostar abandoned the MRX1 and a patent that had been pending for it at the time of the merger.

Lots of other fluff and kinda goofy testimony from the E* omitted. E* was actively looking for DVR alternatives, but decided to go it alone.


DAY 8 : Echostar's CEO, Charles Ergen, took the stand. When asked if profitability and criticism gives somebody the right to take someone's IP, Ergen responded "no", adding he and his company respected others inventions. Baxter attempted to get Ergen to agree that DVR is indispensable to Echostar's customer retention but Ergen would not directly answer the question when asked several different ways. Baxter net referred to early Echostar comparative advertising copy which read "for people who think the idea behind TiVo is cool, but the price isn't". Baxter pointed out how TiVo is a verb and that sportscasters say things like "I wish I had TiVo'd that moment". He asked Ergen if he had ever heard anyone say "I wish I'd 501'd that moment". Ergen agreed he had never heard that. Ergen testified that Echostar had no need to steal TiVo technology since it employs its own staff of "the best engineering experts in the world'). [Dale's Note: Whether patented technology is independently developed has no bearing whatever on whether it infringes on someone else's patent claims - innocent infringement is just as much infringement as willful infringement.]

Echostar's last witness was Dr. Nathaniel Polish, an inventor of DVR products. He testified that TiVo's technology was nothing new and that more than 50 DVR-related patents had been granted before TiVo obtained one for its media switch. Among inventions that preceded TiVo's was the Screamin' Streamer, an EchoStar product, and the MRx1. On cross-examination Polish acknowledged that the Screamin' Streamer was only used in-house and never marketed commercially and admitted that the MRx1 was not capable of recording and playing live TV simultaneously. Tivo's attorney quipped, if the MRX1 was such a good product, "one wonders why they threw it out the door shortly after..." Media Four was purchased by Echostar.

Lots of good stuff here. Ergen is a well-known hot-head, liar and snake. Always thinks he's the smartest guy in the room. Very evasive under cross-examination.

The media switch is the heart of this patent.

The use of TiVo's name in their ads show a willingness to mimic functionality, but trying to undercut them price-wise (easy to do when you copy their work and don't pay the licensing/royalties). E* other DVR ventures didn't seem to work very well...

DAY 9 : TiVo CEO Jim Barton returned to the stand to rebut allegations made by EchoStar's witnesses claims that "trick play" technology elements existed in products prior to TiVo's May 15, 2001 patent grant. ... TiVo also called Professor Jim Storer of Brandeise University as a patent 'validity' expert to counter Echostar's 'invalidity' expert, Dr. Nathaniel Polish. The essence of Polish's earlier testimony was that some 50 DVR-related "prior art" patents pre-existed TiVo's patent, thereby nullifying TiVo's patent claims. Storer testified that Tivo's patent is "absolutely" valid: "This is pioneering technology ... [s]ure, all these bits and pieces - that were very expensive - existed before, but I have seen no prior system that does all these steps ...". The prior patents dealt with "little pieces of technology ... in incremental steps ... [t]here's a big difference between these and the gigantic leap of putting all of them together as is done in the Barton patent".

The basis for TiVo's patents, and relation to prior art. They invented a unique system, which was a large leap in technology.


The next day, the verdict came down with a win for TiVo. We have still to hear from the judge whether or not E* willfully violated the patents, which will lead to a 3x of the damages.


EchoStar filed a request late last year with the USPTO to reexamine TiVo's '389 "multimedia time warping system" patent. Engadget reports that Echostar is going the way of RIM/NTP and are asking Judge Folsom to stay the judgment until word comes back from the patent office.

More delay tactics by E*. Will also provide more definitive evidence of the patent's validity.

I think it's ridiculouse how widely patents such as Tivo's are being enforced and applied. Tivo has patents on things such as "watching one recorded program while recording another" and they are trying force other companies to pay massive sums for doing the same thing, .

What is intuitive and easy to understand now wasn't so easy in the mid-to-late 1990's. Thus, the patent was issued for a new and creative invention.

TiVo isn't trying to extort anyone. Companies can choose to license the technology if they wish. However, should they make use of the patented tech, beware to suffer the consequences of a lawsuit.


but DISH's and other's DVR technology was developed COMPLETELY independently of Tivo's. The hardware, firmware, and software code in the various DVR's for cable and satellite are COMPLETELY different from Tivo's.

Doesn't matter under the current patent scheme.


These patents are just TOO broad. It's like the inventor of the "locomotive" to get a patent on "wheeled, powered transport vehicle" and then trying to extort money from the inventor of the auotmobile because technically his invention does the same thing. Now, i will admit that that is a bit of a wild analogy and not completely fitting, but it does get my point across.

Valid to a degree. The patent system has been abused over the past few years.


Tivo wants a huge monopoly on the DVR services, but they cannot even offer what cable and satellite providers can. The problem is that Tivo is not even a "TV provider," so they are basically saying that since they were the first to patent these ideas, ALL people who want to enjoy them have to pay $100+ for TV service (cable or satellite) and then buy the TiVo service for an EXTRA $12 or so/month and have the hassle of a much less convenient/capable system in which at least 2 boxes are set up. So, it seems like Tivo just wants EVERYONE to jump through hoops so they can get more money.

First of all, your numbers are way off. TiVo's deal with DirecTV gave them $1 per DirecTiVo customer per month. Surely, a staggering fee which would cripple any corporation. [/sarcasm]
DirecTV customers who wanted TiVo had to pay a $5 service fee. Guess where the other $4 went ? DirecTV.

TiVo doesn't want to monopolize the DVR industry. That's insane. The just want to protect the hard work that they did to invent this technology. Any company can license it for a reasonable fee.

Paul, you assume Tivo offered all their features to everyone equally for use and I don't believe that is the case now and I don't believe it ever has been. It will be interesting if Cisco buys them and puts them together with SA.

Paul, you assume Tivo offered all their features to everyone equally for use and I don't believe that is the case now and I don't believe it ever has been. It will be interesting if Cisco buys them and puts them together with SA.

All conjecture. We'll never know the details. Obviously, what TiVo offered E* in 1997 would be different than what the could have offered SA in 2001-2005, since time had passed and TiVo had added more features.

I have a hard time buying the whole "Cisco or Apple's gonna buy TiVo" argument. The time for the takeover was when Tivo's stock was in the toilet a year or two ago. Not now, having seen the stock price jump up as a result of this lawsuit victory.

edit : What's the most reasonable thing to assume in all of this ? The relatively small and money-losing TiVo denied SA the opportunity to a fair deal and denied themselves a lot of revenue ? Or, the fairly large and established SA decided to go it alone ?

I agree, the patent stuff would probably sustain its own thread.

[immediately going hypocritical]
RE: buyout. Yes the 'best' time to buy would have been during the low prices.

But whether it makes sense [cents?] for Cisco now - would that not be a balance between [purchase and integration costs] and Cisco's future plans with respect to the expected licensing costs or even TIVO's willingness to bargain given they just got a win?

It just does not seem worth it to predict - without Cisco's vision and road-map and some analysis of how the patents affect that.

[/hypocrite]

v/r,
C-F

Wishing I could prognosticate and make millions on speculation.

Paul,

For once I can agree with you. :) We'll never really know just what, if anything, transpired between SA and Tivo.

I can also agree with your edit somewhat, but at the time all of this would have transpired, 4-5 years ago, if not more, I don't know that Tivo was losing money like it was whenthe Comcast agrement was worked out.

The other part of this that I believe I've read over the years that there was a lot of bad blood between Tivo and cableco's in general. I could be wrong, but I've always been under the impression that Tivo simply wanted too much from cableco's way back when. Tivo then took their technology and went the DirecTV route. They played nice with some companies that weren't directly involved with cable, but didn't play so nice with those that were. And here we are.

The "temporary" win certainly makes them less likely to agree to a buyout by Cisco under normal circumstances, but let's not forget where we think cable wants to go and how many users there will actually be to use standalone STBs in the future. The vast majority of subscribers will still simply plug in their cable and that's it. Most subscribers don't even like an STB to begin with, so the potential base for Tivo, or any DVR/external device, will still be fairly limited and it may take a marriage with Cisco to provide the wider range of services that will bring subscribers to the table.

Paul,
The other part of this that I believe I've read over the years that there was a lot of bad blood between Tivo and cableco's in general. I could be wrong, but I've always been under the impression that Tivo simply wanted too much from cableco's way back when. Tivo then took their technology and went the DirecTV route. They played nice with some companies that weren't directly involved with cable, but didn't play so nice with those that were. And here we are.

If you recall, TiVo and Comcast had been talking for a while, just after DirecTV had decided to not extend their deal with TiVo. The deal with Comcast fell apart, with TiVo walking away from the table. Didn't make sense at the time, and the CEO caught a lot of heat for doing so. Details starting coming out shortly after then, that the deal would have given TiVo even less money than they received from DirecTV ($1/sub). So, it appeared that Comcast saw TiVo was in trouble, and decided to squeeze them. I think both sides saw that a deal was better than no deal, so they eventually got a deal done. I don't ever recall hearing of any bad blood, with Comcast or any other cable co.

I think the cable co's have decided in general (perhaps not in a colluded way) that they can spin their own and compete with TiVo, without having to pay TiVo's licensing. Well, if TiVo's patent stands after further USPTO scrutiny, we'll see how wedded those cable co's are to their ideals.


One last (!) thing to point out is how TiVo deals with these patents, and their involvement in the legal system. TiVo's court victory actually netted them less damages than they had asked for, because the jury didn't think they attempted to protect the patents vigorously enough. It's another example about how TiVo would rather make deals than go to court. They're not some Gemstar-type company who'll sue anyone and everyone who even appears to be in violation of their IP. I believe they really value making cooperative deals first and foremost, and will only resort to the courts as a last resort.

I aggree. I always thought Tivo was shooting themselves in the foot by not aggressively suing everyone, big or small, to protect their patents and it turns out I was right. By choosing (for whatever reason) to let some companies infringe, they opened the door for others to follow suit. If they had done that too much for too long, they could have lost future suits altogether. But, unless you can show me that Tivo patents were open to SA and others for a "reasonable" fee (reasonable to SA, etc., not just Tivo) and that cableco's did not have a say in deciding not to license Tivo features, I simply choose to believe that SA and others have been unfairly locked out for competitive reasons, as well as bad-blood between companies. You obviously feel different and that is fine with me, really. People hate Microsoft, people hate cable, people even hate DirecTV, that's what makes the world go around and companies strive to do better. :)

Look, I simply don't like Tivo as a company because I don't think they "play nice". When I talk about bad-blood, I'm talking long before Comcast. But that really isn't the point. I support their protecting their work, I'd protect it to. My only argument is with those of you who simply refuse to believe that patents play a big role in what other companies are able to provide in their DVRs. It MAY be true that they can license all of Tivo's features, but I believe (and so do they apparently) that would be too costly for them and the cableco's they serve.

No other DVR comes close to Tivo in usefulness, so it's my opinion that SA is not the only culprit in all this. I check the Moto and other threads and there are just as many complaints there. I've used Passport on the 8300 and will use it again next month when I visit my daughter in North Carolina, but I still don't like it any better than SARA and there are some things I like better in SARA, probably just because I'm more used to SARA. I don't get all fuzzy inside about the slickness or color of a IPG or whether it fills the screeen. I simply want to be able to scroll to an item, press a button to set a recording, and the recording to take place as scheduled. The 8300 has done this for me without fail for well over a year and a half.

Would I like a widescreen IPG with 6 hours/10 lines of programming displayed? Sure, but no amount of my complaining in THIS thread is going to change what I have or how fast I get something better. TitanTV gives me that and my wireless notebook is right here. Eventually Cox will get a new IPG and make me happier, but I make do with what I have and I hav no desire to switch to DirecTv so I can get an HD Tivo. I drive a Dodge Dakota even though I know there are bigger and better trucks out there. I drive the Dakota and use cable and the 8300 because they meet my needs and fit my budget.

I started this thread by taking vegggas' tips for the 8000 and updating them for the 8300. The problem is AVS wants virtually everything to do with the 8300 in this thread no matter how off-topic it is and that just makes it that much more difficult for folks to find answers without a ton of reposting old questions and rehashing the same old negative issues regarding Tivo.

AVS relented some time ago and allowed some other 8300 threads to develop, but I think you will find a "My Tivo Is Better" discussion in every one of them and I just don't believe that is necessary or right. You can even go through this thread and I think you will see that this subject has been discussed probably a half dozen times already. I would have much preferred a Tivo vs 8300 thread to discuss the differences, etc., and keep them separate from this and other 8300 threads. But, this is AVS and we follow their rules....sigh.

<snip> I simply want to be able to scroll to an item, press a button to set a recording, and the recording to take place as scheduled. The 8300 has done this for me without fail for well over a year and a half. <snip>

You are very lucky, then; that hasn't been my experience. I'd put the probability of getting all my recordings in a given week at 98% for my ReplayTVs and 75% for the 8300. Thank goodness for bit torrent, or I'd have to watch some shows in SD....
Sean

Yeah, I know, and I do consider myself lucky, though I don't know why some of us (I'm not alone here) simply don't run into many problems. It could be Cox Cable, we're still running 1.87.16.1 (though I hope to get 1.88.11.1 tonight or tomorrow sometime). It could be that I simply don't fill up my HDD or the recording schedule, though I use every recording option and have all kinds of season passes scheduled.

I do clean out the schedule for old shows that won't be on again until summer or next fall. For example, I delete series, like The Sporanos, The West Wing, etc., when they finish their seasons and then reschedule them when they return (funny I picked 2 that won't return :) ). I am careful not to accidently end up with 3 recordings scheduled for the same time and I usually don't keep recordings around for more than a week or so. I watch a recording while I've got 2 more recordings in progress and I often join recordings in progress. So, it's not like I don't do all the things most users do. And I use a Component connection, though I also have S-Video to the TV, Video/L-R Audio to a VCR (not sure why, too lazy to disconnect them I guess), and optical audio to my Denon.

I'm personally convinced that a lot of problems are the result of faulty memory useage, either by SA design errors or by cableco's who don't play nice with the technology. I have run into problems caused by IPG errors, like the First Run Flag missing, Title changes, etc. In fact, the missing First Run flag seems to be a continuing problem for my wife's Y&R recording, so I changed that recording to All Episodes/This Time slot, and now that I mention it, I think I need to change it because sometimes it gets moved ahead or rescheduled to make room for sports or something.

At least the SARA in Greensboro NC has the fixed firmware for the COPY TO VCR feature.

...I've used Passport on the 8300 and will use it again next month when I visit my daughter in North Carolina, but I still don't like it any better than SARA and there are some things I like better in SARA, probably just because I'm more used to SARA... I am careful not to accidently end up with 3 recordings scheduled for the same time and I usually don't keep recordings around for more than a week or so...Watching both sides, the Scheduled Recording Priority is the one thing about Passport that I think I would miss.
Everything else seems like just different work-arounds for whatever features each OS/version happens to have.
But I cheerfully started a truck by jumping the ballast resistor for two years...

v/r,
C-F

At least the SARA in Greensboro NC has the fixed firmware for the COPY TO VCR feature.

Why would they fix it? It prevents people to watch their recorded programs on another set while watching something else on the main set.

At least the SARA in Greensboro NC has the fixed firmware for the COPY TO VCR feature.
Why would they fix it? It prevents people to watch their recorded programs on another set while watching something else on the main set.
It was never fixed, nor officially broken as known by SA. They released an early version of 1.87.17 in mid to late 2004 that apparently had the copy to VCR bug, but was never reported back to them. All subsequent versions, including later 1.87.23 versions did not have the problem. When SA was asked about it, they could not duplicate the issue since it was only in a version that well over a year old and many revsions past. Many cable co's have held onto the same version of firmware because it's been stable and not worth the problems associated with mid-term upgrades, until DVR 1.8 (AKA 1.88.xx) is stable. I used to use it a long time ago, but passed when I got a second DVR and other HD compatible set.

vegggas

Watching both sides, the Scheduled Recording Priority is the one thing about Passport that I think I would miss. Everything else seems like just different work-arounds for whatever features each OS/version happens to have. But I cheerfully started a truck by jumping the ballast resistor for two years... That would be very useful, but it's just not a deal-breaker for me. I'll certainly admit I'd probably be singing a different tune if there were options available. Heck, if the price is right, I'lljoin the Tivo camp. Unfortunatey, the franchise system and the cable quasi-monopoly just don't allow such options, yet.

Funny analogy with the truck BTW. :)

Look, I simply don't like Tivo as a company because I don't think they "play nice". When I talk about bad-blood, I'm talking long before Comcast. But that really isn't the point. I support their protecting their work, I'd protect it to. My only argument is with those of you who simply refuse to believe that patents play a big role in what other companies are able to provide in their DVRs. It MAY be true that they can license all of Tivo's features, but I believe (and so do they apparently) that would be too costly for them and the cableco's they serve.

And that's the crux of the argument, right there.

I never disagreed with the point that TiVo's (or other company's, for that matter) patents played a large role in what DVRs (both TiVo's and other's) look like. That point is undeniable. It all boils down to licensing. Where you see TiVo wanting to not license their software (and limit their potential income), I see them as wanting to license it to any and all takers. It only makes sense for them to do so, since they're losing money every quarter and need more sources of revenue. They mainly lose money on their hardware subsidies, and try to make it back on the software (same business model as the wireless phone providers and others). It costs them substantially less money to do a licensing deal with someone else, since their only cost is the support of that customer.

DirecTV licensed TiVo's software, but chose not to license all of the features (basically all of TiVo's networking stuff) because they thought it represented too a large chunk of functionality/features for them to support properly. They wanted to keep it simple, which is fine. Their fee for licensing this software ? $1/customer/month. DirecTV kept the other $4/customer/month for themselves.

E* decided not to license TiVo's software, because they thought they could replicate it and not have to pay TiVo. Well, they got caught, and now they're on the losing end of a lawsuit because of it.

There you have both major satellite players involved with Tivo licensing. One worked out well, the other didn't. The fact of the matter is that they were both approached willingly by TiVo to license the software. TiVo didn't withhold anything. They wanted to make a deal with both of them.

Comcast's deal with TiVo is supposed to result in a Motorola 6412 with the TiVo software running on it. Rumor has it that the entire TiVo software bundle is going to run on it, but that remains to be seen.

So, if many major players are licensing the software, it must be readily available for reasonable fees ($1/month/sub is chump change to the big cable co's who increase their rates every year). Those who don't license it are just being cheap and unwilling to pony up to make their product better, or don't care if they make a crappy box.

I'm fairly new to this DVR/STB stuff and have read several sections of this thread. I also
searched for a way to find out how much space I have used on my hard drive. The
information they gave me, at TWC, and the information I downloaded has a way to check it but the
"List" then "B" button doesn't give me this information, neither does "Settings" and "More
Settings". I searched this thread but did not find what I wanted. Is there a way to check
how much space I have used? I'm on TWC with a 8300HD box running the
Passport/Echo software I think, at least that's what flashed up when it rebooted on it's
own once.
Thanks

There is a separate Passport thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453804) where you might find the answer you are looking for.

So, if many major players are licensing the software, it must be readily available for reasonable fees ($1/month/sub is chump change to the big cable co's who increase their rates every year). Those who don't license it are just being cheap and unwilling to pony up to make their product better, or don't care if they make a crappy box.Sorry, but I just can't agree with these assertions.

"Readily available" is not a truism simply because DirecTV and Dish had their chance at licensing. $1.00/mo/sub may be chump change to you, but it's still a lot of money any way you look at it and I've still seen no evidence of what, if anything, was offered to cable or when. If what you say is totally true, it boggles my mind that not a single cableco, until now with Comcast, bothered to pony up the $$$ and turn all their subs into Tivo aficionados.

I've had cable for a long time now and I can categorically state that I've gone multi-years without rate increases. In fact, my next "possible" rate increase will not happen until at least 2008 and that will be almost 4 years since the last one.

I guess I'll have to give you the last one. Maybe they are being cheap. Maybe they are just trying to keep their rates down for the vast majority of their subs. Maybe they made the same mistake Dish did thinking they can go it alone. If that is the case, it's okay with me. I am happy with what I have for the price I pay. I'll be just as happy when the S3 becomes available cable-wide. Even if I choose not to switch, it will be another option and that has to be good for everyone.

Internal Hard Drive Replacement
Popular Science magazine May 2006 issue, has instructions for replacing the internal hard drive.

Internal Hard Drive Replacement
Popular Science magazine May 2006 issue, has instructions for replacing the internal hard drive.

Just read the article. Can it be as simple as popping the case and plopping in a new drive, as the article indicates ? I would think that if it were that easy, some industrious individual here on AVS would have done so long ago...

PopSci Article (http://www.popsci.com/popsci/how20/0ad08278d3daa010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html)

Just read the article. Can it be as simple as popping the case and plopping in a new drive, as the article indicates ? I would think that if it were that easy, some industrious individual here on AVS would have done so long ago...

PopSci Article (http://www.popsci.com/popsci/how20/0ad08278d3daa010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html)

Why would you replace the hard drive in a box you don't own?

Just read the article. Can it be as simple as popping the case and plopping in a new drive, as the article indicates ? I would think that if it were that easy, some industrious individual here on AVS would have done so long ago...You gotta figure the boxes are designed for a certain level of relatively easy maintenance. Being able to swap out a failed drive to recover a box is a good repair option to have. It's an easy job to do either in the field or at a repair depot.

Why has no one done it, yet? Read on:
Why would you replace the hard drive in a box you don't own?Exactly. This has been discussed on this thread before. Some Canadians have bought their 8300HDs, but if you're a US customer, you're renting your box. Since the cableco can make you pay for the box if they notice that the case seals have been broken, and their price is usually >$500, is it surprising that no one here has thought it worth the risk?

Many customers have been able to use the eSATA port with no problems, reducing the number of customers who might be tempted to break the seals to get at the internal drive.

Internal Hard Drive Replacement
Popular Science magazine May 2006 issue, has instructions for replacing the internal hard drive.

This is really a bit of "old news" - reports of this article have surfaced elsewhere a couple of weeks ago.

Some of the information provided regarding connecting an external drive is dead wrong:

1) The article says that:

Before you start, determine which operating system your box uses—SARA or Passport—by putting the box into diagnostic mode. To do this, hold down the “select” button on the front of the box until the “mail” light flashes, then hit the “info” button. Scroll down to find the OS. Only SARA boxes can take a new internal drive, but either will work with an external drive.

*WRONG:* Passport will not work with external drive (not yet anyway).

2) The description of connecting the external drive leaves out the fact that the 8300 needs to be UNPLUGGED (not just turned off) then plugged in after the external drive is connected and powered up.

3) The writer also leaves out the "spec" that the drive should be 7200RPM.

So much for the accuracy of Popular "Science". :rolleyes:

Why would you replace the hard drive in a box you don't own?

I wouldn't. I can barely stand to USE this box, never mind have to buy it from my cable co if I broke it. :)

Just read the article. Can it be as simple as popping the case and plopping in a new drive, as the article indicates ? I would think that if it were that easy, some industrious individual here on AVS would have done so long ago...[/URL]They have (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=483092), but most either do not report success at modifying a rented box or use a different name. I might not wish to confess to a crime [or violation of TOS and $500 charge at the least] on-line either.

The fellow who wrote that got at least some of the information from here and the Yahoo 8000 and 8300 groups. He posted as something like PopSci Writer (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?userid=7581471) in both, and was advised of the ownership issue at least three times I viewed.

v/r,
C-F

They have (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=483092), but most either do not report success at modifying a rented box or use a different name. I might not wish to confess to a crime [or violation of TOS and $500 charge at the least] on-line either.

The fellow who wrote that got at least some of the information from here and the Yahoo 8000 and 8300 groups. He posted as something like PopSci Writer (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?userid=7581471) in both, and was advised of the ownership issue at least three times I viewed.

v/r,
C-F
You are right - he was warned. I sent a link to the article to our local TW people and they told me that they forwarded it to TW legal. I included the fact that the Yahoo groups warned the writer that there were legal issues. But, as I pointed out earlier, the guy didn't even get his facts straight :eek:

One "trick" to maximize DVD quality from a HD recording is to record it in 16x9 forma. To do this:
1) DO NOT use "Copy to VCR" mode - connect DVR-R with S-Video.
2) Go to set up wizzard (Power off, push both Info & Guide buttons on front panel)
3) Select 480i (press A)
4) Turn 8300 on
5) Press "#" key to get stretch mode (will squeeze image).
6) Set DVD recorder to record 16x9 image & record.

When done, run the set-up wizard again to restore 8300 to normal HD mode.

Thanks to ReplayJanitor, who published this awhile ago.

Dave,

I have been recording DVDs on a CyberHome DVD recorder attached to my SA8300HD via a S-Video cable. I've tried your suggestion for creating a anamorphic DVD put I can't get the SA8300HD to display it.

Here is a photo of the setup screen specifying "A":
http://www.geocities.com/truerock2/SA8300HD/tv1a.JPG

Here is the TV screen after I selected "A":
http://www.geocities.com/truerock2/SA8300HD/tv2a.JPG

Here is the SA8300HD LED console showing that I am receiving HDTV and displayin 480i:
http://www.geocities.com/truerock2/SA8300HD/tv3a.JPG

Here is the TV screen set to stretch mode put not "stretching"
http://www.geocities.com/truerock2/SA8300HD/tv4a.JPG
Note the grey bars at the top and bottom while being in 480i Stretch mode.
Also, Zoom1 and Zoom2 do not work. It's like it's stuck in Normal mode.

I noticed that if I'm receiving 480i (as well as displaying it) the Stretch mode is not available.

It seems my chepo $99 TV can't receive different kinds of Zoom and the stretch mode while my Panasonic plasma (which is in the shop being repaired) could. But, I was using component cables with the plasma TV and S-Video cables with the CRT TV.

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks...

I was using the "Copy to VCR" from my 8300HDDVR to a VCR and found the following message after the movie ended:

"Your HDTV does not support HDCP. Please disconnect the HDMI connector and use the YPrPb connection to continue watching TV."

Since I've been using an HDMI cable for 6 months between my 8300 and my SONY A10HDTV, I was a little surprised!

Any ideas?????

Dave,

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks...

It appears that you are doing everything alright. :confused:

What version of SARA are you running? It worked fine with 1.87.16.109 and I just checked it again on a recording I made of last night's Leno with 1.88.17.100 (which we received a week or two ago) and it still works fine.

I take it that you get exactly the same picture with "Normal" and "Stretch" settings (both with gray bars at top and bottom).

I was using the "Copy to VCR" from my 8300HDDVR to a VCR and found the following message after the movie ended:

"Your HDTV does not support HDCP. Please disconnect the HDMI connector and use the YPrPb connection to continue watching TV."

Since I've been using an HDMI cable for 6 months between my 8300 and my SONY A10HDTV, I was a little surprised!

Any ideas?????

philherz,

There have been reports here in central & western NY (Rochester, in my case) of new HDMI-HDCP problems concurrent with the release of a new version of SARA (1.88.17.100 - the one with 4x FF/RW & "Start from the Beginning"). I've seen indications that this is getting a wider roll-out - perhaps that is your problem.

By the way, it always helps when people include their location in their profile - then we all have an idea of what cable system you might be on. ;)

philherz,

There have been reports here in central & western NY (Rochester, in my case) of new HDMI-HDCP problems concurrent with the release of a new version of SARA (1.88.17.100 - the one with 4x FF/RW & "Start from the Beginning"). I've seen indications that this is getting a wider roll-out - perhaps that is your problem.

By the way, it always helps when people include their location in their profile - then we all have an idea of what cable system you might be on. ;)

I don't show 4x FF....would I have to re-boot???

PS: Good point about my profile....I'm in Amherst NY. (WNY)

thnx

No, I haven't heard that Adelphia/Buffalo upgraded yet. It's been on TW systems in Albany, Syracuse & Rochester. Maybe something else is going on. You don't need to reboot to get the new versions - "they" do it in the dark of night.

By the way, what is the latest word as to when TW takes over your system? You guys get a lot more HD channels than we do. I'm hoping that some sort of consolidation will bring your additional HD channels east.

No, I haven't heard that Adelphia/Buffalo upgraded yet. It's been on TW systems in Albany, Syracuse & Rochester. Maybe something else is going on. You don't need to reboot to get the new versions - "they" do it in the dark of night.

By the way, what is the latest word as to when TW takes over your system? You guys get a lot more HD channels than we do. I'm hoping that some sort of consolidation will bring your additional HD channels east.

No official word about the transfer to TW. Nothing of any value on the Adelphia newsgroups, either.

We get 16 HD stations....how many do you get?

Scary to think that we might have those 16 reduced down to your level, unless there's a big price reduction!!!

We also get 16 - but they are a little different. We have the WB (which you probably won't get), YesHD (when it is on) TNTHD and UniversalHD. You get StarzHD, CinemaxHD, ESPN2 HD and NFL HD (leave it to Buffalo to have that). Now if they just kept all of the ones you now get and add the ones we get (except WB HD) - you'd have 19, and we would have 20.

-FAT CHANCE :mad:

We also get 16 - but they are a little different. We have the WB (which you probably won't get), YesHD (when it is on) TNTHD and UniversalHD. You get StarzHD, CinemaxHD, ESPN2 HD and NFL HD (leave it to Buffalo to have that). Now if they just kept all of the ones you now get and add the ones we get (except WB HD) - you'd have 19, and we would have 20.

-FAT CHANCE :mad:

I think I'd prefer our package, but then again, I have one of those premium bundles and would prefer StarzHD & CinemaxHD to WB, YesHD & TNTHD.

Who knows what the transition will bring!!!???

http://thomashawk.com/2006/05/cox-communications-and-tivo-sitting-in.html

Credit to member GVC and this post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7610112&&#post7610112

Gosh, and I thought you had something interesting to post. :)

Wow, TiVo's working with a cable company ? :)

Hate to say I told you so, Dave, but there's more proof of TiVo's openness.

Also, forgot to mention in our previous conversations AT&T cable's use of the TiVo Series2 way back when. In fact, I think AT&T customers got it before anyone else could buy 'em in the stores.

Paul,

Openness today does not mean there was similar openness yesterday. I've never said cableco's couldn't get Tivo, just that the price was too high and there was badblood between them and some cableco's, I don't know why you can't understand the distinction. Tivo has been in some financial trouble, and even though I believe their financials look better, they have more than enough reason now to work with anyone they can.

The other part of this is that now Tivo is making a compatible (cablecard) unit and with OCAP, etc., cableco's don't have to change everything to accomodate them. And, if I read some of this right, the software is really all we are talking about here and elsewhere, Tivo software running on Moto, SA, and other boxes.

My observation and opinion is that Cable wants to "embrace" Tivo because of Series 3 with the cable card and dual tuner. If buyers choose this route over SA, then the cable companies have very little control over the way the boxes work and the way the recordings are distributed.

I have a sinking feeling that "CABLE" will be in control of it all still.

I have a sinking feeling that "CABLE" will be in control of it all still.

Enter... Verizon.

But as long as the viable option exists, the cable companies could top out and need to keep or seduce folks with service, features, or price...

v/r,
C-F
The hopeful cynicoptimist...


for personal CE equipment that is 'free' to skip advertisements and and/or [follow/skirt/push] the "Fair Use Rights" [whatever they are].

My observation and opinion is that Cable wants to "embrace" Tivo because of Series 3 with the cable card and dual tuner. If buyers choose this route over SA, then the cable companies have very little control over the way the boxes work and the way the recordings are distributed.

I have a sinking feeling that "CABLE" will be in control of it all still.
It has nothing to do with distribution. The S3 will have to abide by content distribution already in place and need the decryption of the cable card for playback and decryption algorithims of native content. Any distribution will be done at SD resolution, just as upcoming plans roll out this summer with the cable / Sprint two-way distribution deal announced at the start of the year.

vegggas

It has nothing to do with distribution. The S3 will have to abide by content distribution already in place and need the decryption of the cable card for playback and decryption algorithims of native content. Any distribution will be done at SD resolution, just as upcoming plans roll out this summer with the cable / Sprint two-way distribution deal announced at the start of the year.

vegggas

I hope this is the case and not like DTIVO where the networking is crippled.

vegggas, I thought the whole idea behind OCAP, etc., was that cableco's won't actually have to "embrace" anything, Tivo S3 or otherwise. If it works with CableCard, you should be able to buy it and connect it, no?

Open cable allows for 3rd party software developers to develop Java apps that run on OCAP capable STB's and for harware developers to make compatible hardware. Those developers must still abide by the content restrictions already in place and to the cablelabs guidelines. The cable card just allows for an installable decryption method after the tuner. All live and stored content must pass through the cable card decryption for playback.
Just because an application has Tivo features, does not mean that it will allow for content distribution or hacking of features. In fact many users may feel that the S3 features are being reduced because they are probably not as hackable as before.
The post about Cox asking customers about Tivo is too early for facts yet, but the going model would be for an OCAP application that would be written by Tivo for it's software features on existing hardware, AND consumer owned hardware.

vegggas

Yeah, that's the way I envisioned it. I guess my point is that cable isn't "embracing" Tivo as much as Tivo is simply following CableCard/OCAP specs to develop a software (Java) platform to run on it's own compatible box or someone else's. I know some will think I'm just mincing words (Hi Paul :) ), and maybe I am, but I just feel there are a lot of reasons why Tivo and cable seem to be playing nice these days.

Anyway, how do you envision the IPG working? With D*, I assume Tivo's data is transmitted to it's box for display, searching, etc. I guess cableco's would have to "embrace" Tivo enough to transmit that same data for Tivo-enabled boxes to use. This would let Tivo retain full control of it's data/applications. Or do you foresee Tivo becoming the de facto IPG as part of their agreements with cableco's?