Optoma H31 review & screenshots [Text View] - Page 12

justinjas

06-19-05, 08:32 PM

Hey guys, I wrote in about a week ago to let you know I was getting my optoma H31 on Monday of this past week and would be trying it out on my linux pc. I've been pretty busy and vacationing this weekend in the outer banks so didn't have a chance to write in with my experience till now but wanted to give you guys an update.

I got the optoma and first thing tried to get it to work with the pc. I didn't have the problems others have mentioned with getting it to display over dvi-d but I'm also only using the 6 foot cable that came with my lcd monitor. At first I set it to a 848x480 as others had mentioned would work. I got an image fine but very quickly I started to notice the tearing effect. I thought that maybe if I tweaked around with the different x-windows modelines I could get the correct refresh rate and output that the projector would need to display without tearing. Unfortanately I tried every modeline I could find on the net with no luck, always tearing, sometimes worse than others but always there.

I then began to try other resolutions. I found this page that has a huge list of hdtv resolutions linuxis.us/linux/media/howto/linux-htpc/video_card_configuration.html. So I began to go through the list. A bunch wouldn't display because they were out of the refresh range however I was able to find one that will work for me with out tearing. I remember this being mentioned before but 1280x720 seems to provide an image that doesn't tear from a htpc. For any linux users out there the modeline I was using is:

ModeLine "ATSC-720-60p" 74.25 1280 1320 1376 1650 720 722 728 750

For me this produced an image that looks great and does not tear. Now as other have mentioned a 720p image sent to the optoma produces a slightly softer image than the native resolution or something like 1080i and that is also the case here from the pc. However to me I started to get used to the softer image and started prefering it. Of course this could be because it doesn't tear anymore but I'm pretty sure this is the setup I'm going to stick with.

Anyways just wanted to post my update and let you know what setup worked for me.

Justin

justinjas

06-19-05, 08:41 PM

One other thing I wanted to ask to the group. I know this is something that is possible with all dlp projectors but I was hoping that I wouldn't notice it. On certain scenes or on the thx video test (always on the circle test), I can see pretty bad rainbow effects. I actually didn't understand what it meant when I started looking into DLP projectors and thought maybe it just meant color bleeding or a rainbow effect across solid color screens. However the issue I have is when bright white or sometimes other colors are shown on the screen if I move my eyes (as in moving my focus from one side of the screen to the other) then the white image will kinda seperate into the three primary colors for a split second and then go back. Its hard to explain but I'm sure this is the RBE everyone talks about. Now don't get me wrong it's not bad enough that I would want to give up the beautiful image of the Optoma but I'm wondering if there are any adjustments that can be done to lessen the effect. Thanks.

Justin

AndrewZorn

06-19-05, 09:51 PM

I believe that the speed of the color wheel is the only thing that determines the rainbow effect, so you can't really fix it.

So a shorter cord reduces the chance of the Optoma failure? AGH I want the Optoma SO BAD but I plan to use a HTPC! If I knew it was going to work, my search would be over. I just don't want to pay for a 4805 and always wonder whether or not the Optoma would have worked, with its better image quality and shorter throw distance (which I need)!!!!

rbastedo

06-19-05, 11:51 PM

jedi35

06-19-05, 11:57 PM

Andrew,
No, it has not been proven for sure that using a shorter dvi cable will improve the chances of correct dvi-d detection as far as htpcs go. Justin didn't say that he tried a longer cable first and was unsuccessful. He just started with a shorter 6' cable. I'd be curious to know whether or not his H31 works with a Windows based pc, as he's only tried it with a Linux system. Tom showed us that his Bravo D2 dvi player has a problem putting out enough juice to run a long dvi cable to the H31, but I don't think that the fault is with the pj. Don't you guys agree? I don't think I've seen anyone post that his htpc works with a shorter dvi cable, and not a longer one.

Anyhow, congrats Justin!! You are a member of an elite club of precious few who've gotten a dvi-d image on the H31 from a pc. How many days has it been working? Mr. E only got a week out of his before the signal went away forever. Let us know. BTW, I think that we are getting variable results on the H31 with a 720p signal. I think it depends greatly on the source component. Most of my hd stbs look wonderfully sharp at 720p, but my Zenith 318 dvd player loves 1080i. I just wouldn't say that generally all of us are getting the same results.

Jason,
Yes, I agree that something is wrong somewhere if Arty is getting 6 stretched pixels. However, they are located on the extreme right edge of his picture, not spread out over the image. He is able to adjust them out of the viewing area, using edge masking or some other way. His H31 does report 854/480 as the resolution. Is it possible for him to be pixel mapped for the part of the image he's watching, where the pixels are not stretched?

Lenny,
I know that you are waiting for the XBox 360. However, for it to be the equal of an htpc, it must have dvi with adjustable resolutions. Does it have a dvi-d output? I'd love to know as much as possible about your friend's pc that is using the Nvidia 5700 card. This is good news indeed.

Aren't there others out there who've tried this card and couldn't get it to play nice with the H31?

AndrewZorn

06-20-05, 12:41 AM

You could try getting the H31 from a place that has a no quibble return policy.

I would not be an Optoma customer today had I done this, unfortunately for me I get zero support from the company that accepted my money for their projector and there's no way I know of to get this thing to work.

I suppose I could put another hard disk in this PC & get linux on it & see if it would output to the projector via DVI-D.

However I've never done anything with linux & don't know how difficult this would be.
It's easy to install, medium-difficulty to get to learning to do things, but the lack of driver support, especially for ATI cards makes it almost impossible for me to use. I love browsing the internet and stuff on it since you can't really get a virus, but no games, DVDs, or even music because of drivers.

AndrewZorn

06-20-05, 12:45 AM

CMRA

06-20-05, 10:00 AM

I've been meaning to hook up my laptop to my H31 and see what happens. Just never quite got around to it. Its native resolution is 1280x800 so I have to wonder how that will play out. More later.

AndrewZorn

06-20-05, 10:05 AM

usually you set the secondary display's resolution independently of the primary display's.

AndrewZorn

06-20-05, 11:12 AM

CMRA

06-20-05, 12:48 PM

What is a good way to test tearing? I'm going to see if I can take a laptop to Fry's with DVI-D and see if it works... simply dragging a window around or something wouldn't tell me much since that could be the computer just not moving fast enough.

You won't see any tearing whatsoever in 'desktop'. You'll need to pop in a dvd or play video from the hard drive.

OK, my laptop is VGA (up to 1280x1024). It suffers/enjoys the same fate as HTPCs even with DVI-A vs DVI-D. (I used the adapter that came with the Optoma).
The playback, film and video, scored equally against my towers. An occasional syncing tear but otherwise just fine. The tearing was usually minor and often got masked in scene transitions, hence you really had to watch for them.
So, two HTPCs (one nVidia and one ATI) plus the laptop ALL exhibit the same result.
It's an issue and slightly annoying. Like most here, I'll live with it and hope for a resolve in the future. It's not like I don't have options (six stand alone players that all work like day one).

BTW, I'm hoping to test George's Zenith DVB318 some more.

billymac

06-20-05, 12:54 PM

What is a good way to test tearing? I'm going to see if I can take a laptop to Fry's with DVI-D and see if it works... simply dragging a window around or something wouldn't tell me much since that could be the computer just not moving fast enough.

pop in Ocean's Twelve and watch the opening credits where the background color changes

isn't it pretty :mad:

Loner

06-20-05, 12:58 PM

I'll see if I can get the details. Seems it's 50/50 over in the HTPC/poll thread haven't some of the users there that

are working given some details? Looks like someone just chimmed on that's up and running ok also.

Hmm, I didn't know there WAS a htpc/poll thread for the H31! I barely have enough time these days to keep up with this thread, never mind having time to check if there are other threads I would like to read! I'll go looking for it tho, if people are posting their equipment, and do get dvi to work, it's certainly worth looking through. Odd that the ones who get their htpc and H31 to work with dvi don't ever come into this thread to discuss it :(

Don,

Good to see you posting again. Looks like I won't be able to show you the H31 after all. You're certainly still welcome to pop by and see the upgrade though if you're interested. I gave up after trying two H31s and both failing to consistently deliver over DVI. Interestingly enough, I seem to be the only one who's been successful at getting an H31 to work digitally with an HTPC and then lose the signal. Twice!

It took me long enough to start posting again tho... been putting in overtime trying to get caught up with this thread... was about a month behind, and MAN you guys talk a lot! :) I usually only read this thread at work, (you don't expect me to do what I am SUPPOSED to, do you?!), so it's been interesting trying to keep caught up. Shame I can't see the H31 in action, but I would definitely be interested in seeing the H57 and the Mystery Theatre! I'll pm you sometime soon and try to set up another time, I am sure I would very much enjoy it!

I talked a friend into buying the Panny S97 and then talked another friend into letting us bring it over and hook it up to his Benq 8700. Picture quality was GREAT at 720p! If you have your pc tweaked to look even better than that, I certainly wanna see! I think you said the S97 was about 90% of the pq of the htpc on the H31 pj. (man, enough acronyms or what?)

I have regular Xbox hooked up via component and it is amazing. I have Media center running on a PC right now and considered the Xbox media center extender for it...just to try it...

Anyone have experience with the extender?

That's good to hear about the xbox! I've got one I would definitely be hooking up to the H31 if I get one. Won't be trying the extender tho as I have the Xbox Media Centre. It has most of the flexibility I am looking for with my htpc, so I could may be happy with using an S97 and XBMC for everything else. Hard to say.

Don

HiHoStevo

06-20-05, 01:01 PM

What does this Xbox Media Center Extender do exactly??

Loner

06-20-05, 02:25 PM

What does this Xbox Media Center Extender do exactly??

It's a program you can run on your xbox, and if you have Windows XP Media Centre Edition and the xbox on your network, will allow you to view the music and videos and stuff from the MCE machine on the xbox. Could be pretty cool for those that have XP MCE and don't have XBMC. The software basically 'extends' your Media Centre into the living room.

Don

jedi35

06-20-05, 03:55 PM

Loner,
I know that you've had a lot of reading to catch up on. However, you might want to re-read some of Mystery's posts about his dvd player experiences. He actually was not too impressed with the S97...so much so that he didn't keep it. The glowing comment he made where he made a refence to the player being 90% of the htpc quality was concerning his upconverting LG dvd player, which is essentially the same as my Zenith 318 player. He's watching 1080i over component on this player, and loves it. Unfortunately, dvi from the LG locks up the player when connected to the H31.

Andrew,
I think that there are some slight misunderstandings here. My comments about cable length and dvi functionality are seperate issues from the htpc poll you saw. I believe the poll just takes into consideration whether or not the user is able to get the H31 to recognize and cooperate with a dvi-d signal from an htpc. I don't think that the poll asks who didn't get a signal at first with a long cable, but got one later with a shorter cable. Your post stated that a lot of people got their H31s to work with dvi from an htpc. However, Tom's post reveals that the results of the poll show that it's 50/50 between working ones and those that don't. To me, finding out that 50% of the dvi ports on the H31 work with an htpc is pretty bad. We'd all be pretty upset if 50% of the cars produced by a company actually worked like they should(if we bought one from that manufacturer).

You posted:

"I just have a hard time imagining that they shipped a unit with a port on it used primarily for computers and that it is impossible to get a computer to work with it. maybe it's just me, but I think either the issue is exagerrated or we're all missing something."

Well, the dvi port on a pj isn't there just for(or ever mostly for) htpc use. Your statement would be true if we were talking about a dedicated vga port. However, the dvi port can be used by an extremely wide range of hd set top boxes and dvd players. We can't go as far as saying that Optoma put it there mainly for htpc use. Dvi is one of the possible connections between a videocard and a pj(if present on both units), and it's the only way to get a truely pixel mapped 1:1 image(which I hear is spectacular). We had hopes that the H31's dvi port would have allowed this with consistent positive results and no tearing in the image.

My responses were based on certain assumptions about the poll(was it done by fleaman?). Please enlighten me if I'm wrong.

AndrewZorn

06-20-05, 04:00 PM

The only thing I need to know now is this: does the image quality of the H31 still prevail over the 4805 if you are using VGA? As in, assuming the DVI-D does not work AT ALL, and I run the image via VGA... compared to a 4805 being sent a 848x480 signal via DVI-D... which one 'wins'? Is it only sharpness that is improved? Because if the H31 STILL looked better, as far as blacks, contrast, (sharpness?) then it really doesn't matter if the DVI works, right? Can someone PLEEASE comment?

Andrew,
I think that there are some slight misunderstandings here. My comments about cable length and dvi functionality are seperate issues from the htpc poll you saw. I believe the poll just takes into consideration whether or not the user is able to get the H31 to recognize and cooperate with a dvi-d signal from an htpc. I don't think that the poll asks who didn't get a signal at first with a long cable, but got one later with a shorter cable. Your post stated that a lot of people got their H31s to work with dvi from an htpc. However, Tom's post reveals that the results of the poll show that it's 50/50 between working ones and those that don't. To me, finding out that 50% of the dvi ports on the H31 work with an htpc is pretty bad. We'd all be pretty upset if 50% of the cars produced by a company actually worked like they should(if we bought one from that manufacturer).
So FULL success, as in, no tearing or anything? Some say NO ONE gets it to work, some say the ones that get it to work get tearing, and some say that some people get it to work fully. The poll is flawed because people that HAVE it working are not going to scrape the internet looking for a solution.

Please read the beginning part of this post, because that is the ultimate question... even if the results of H31 on VGA and 4805 on DVI were the same, then the obvious choice is the H31.

jedi35

06-20-05, 04:38 PM

Andrew,
I'm guessing that you haven't gotten a response to the first part of your post because not many CAN replay to it. I don't know if any of us have compared vga from the H31 to dvi on the 4805(I think it's a digital M1 port). Some comparisons to the two pjs have been posted in this thread(I did a huge one with a buddy named Dan) and others. Just run a search. My comparison did not involve vga, and Dan didn't have his M1 to dvi cable at the time. These 2 pjs represent the best of the industry at this price point, and they both have strengths and weaknesses. You probably won't be able to get the majority of people who've seen both to say that one is a clear winner over the other. I like the blacks and contrast of the H31, but the 4805 was brighter, had some nifty image controls that the H31 doesn't have, and it has a much better out of the box color adjustment than the H31(closer to D65). SDE was more visible on the 4805 because of it's increased brightness. While my component input on the H31 shows a slight red push, I'm sure that calibration would yield great results. After calibration, both pjs should easily be at or near D65. Does the H31 prevail over the 4805? It's hard to say. They are both great machines. Jason(DaGamePimp) has now seem both, you might want to PM him. I don't think he's seen vga from the H31.

Also, you have to consider that with evenly matched pjs(they both have the same dlp chip), you are now comparing an analog signal to a digital one. Odds are in favor of the digital signal looking better. Using vga on the H31 doesn not guarantee that your image will be free from tearing. Many have reported tearing on dvi-a and vga as well. As you've asked me to read the beginning of your post, I'm asking you to please read the thread more closely. Even in recent pages, someone has asked Jason to check out the tearing issues over vga before he sends back the H31. I saw tearing when I connected the vga output of my IScan Plus 480p line doubler to the dvi port via an adapter. There's a lot of info in this thread.

In reference to your question about Full success without tearing, I'd say that yes, this is not too much to ask from Optoma. They have been in business awhile, with many business class pjs that have pc connection needs. This issue needs to be addressed by Optoma and fixed. It shouldn't be too hard for them. If they made a mistake in the software or something, they should admit it and release a new firmware that we can apply ourselves, or fix ours at the factory

AndrewZorn

06-20-05, 05:00 PM

Wow thanks

My latest plan is this

There's a good deal at Costco (which I just found out has physical locations) for the 4805, I think I'll get it. The 45 a year doesn't bother me, because think about it, if the website you were getting something from said "45 a year and you can return it whenever"... I think I'd get that. But this is for ALL your Costco needs. Seems like where it is.

In fact, I could get the H31 and see if it works first. I would, but I don't have a computer. I might get the H31, and if when I get my computer it does not work, then return it for the 4805.

ProjectorCentral just called the H31 better than the 4805, switching them on the top 5... this seems pretty significant to me.

billymac

06-20-05, 05:12 PM

i'll say it again. the difference in picture quality between the 4805 and the H31 is neglgible. NOBODY has been able to eliminate tearing on the H31 in 848x480 which is the sharpest possible picture. (dvi or vga). some have been able to successfuly reduce it's appearance, but not eliniate it completely and those who have, have done so by sacrificing some other form of picture quality; i.e., raising the res to 1280x720 or using a different scan rate. save yourself some valuable time and go pickup your 4805. even if the H31 didn't have those two serious issues, you'd still be splitting hairs as far as pq is concerned, so why not go with the one with fewer problems and better customer service and support. had i known then what i know now about the H31 i would have bought the 4805. and i think i can speak for a few other folks on this board that feel the same way.

jedi35

06-20-05, 05:13 PM

I'd be careful about basing my decision on any pj solely on the word from ProjectorCentral. Others here have warned about that too. That site is rooted and funded heavily by advertising, so you can't be sure if the reviews are affected by that. They do have it right that these 2 pjs are at the top of heap these days. You will find many 4805 lovers as well as H31 lovers. After seeing both in my home on the same screen, I can see why.

Now, if you're choosing one or 2 qualities that you prefer, then the choice is easier. I like good deep blacks, richs colors, and great contrast. It's hard to beat the blacks and contrast of the H31. I'm in a fairly well light-controlled room for viewing. If you have some ambient light issues to deal with, or want to be able to just take the pj out of the box and watch it without much setup fuss, the 4805 might be a better choice.

Loner

06-20-05, 05:14 PM

Loner,
I know that you've had a lot of reading to catch up on. However, you might want to re-read some of Mystery's posts about his dvd player experiences. He actually was not too impressed with the S97...so much so that he didn't keep it. The glowing comment he made where he made a refence to the player being 90% of the htpc quality was concerning his upconverting LG dvd player, which is essentially the same as my Zenith 318 player. He's watching 1080i over component on this player, and loves it. Unfortunately, dvi from the LG locks up the player when connected to the H31.

Hmm, maybe it's because I was reading in a hurry to catch up, but I seem to remember that Mr. E had said that the S97 was only marginally better than the 318 (and only in certain resolutions), making it not worth the money layout to get roughly the same quality. So I would tend to think that the 90%-of-htpc quality would refer to both of them, really. Maybe not tho. Maybe Wayne can chime in? If I shouldn't go with the S97, which should I go with? (have a feeling you will recommend the 318!) I can get the S97 for a good price right now, almost half off, and after seeing it on the Benq 8700, I would be VERY happy with the picture. Sharp, no resizing artifacts, all in all a great picture. Of course, we aren't talking about the 8700, we are talking about the H31, and it might "mate up" with it differently. But if the S97 really is about 90% of the quality, I could live with it for the convenience. Still, I know I will want to use the computer with it, either vga or dvi, and if it's not going to work, well, I know I will end up regretting it. Tough decision.

Don
Still have a bit of time to think about it tho. Guess I should start researching the 4805 a lot more too, just in case.

AndrewZorn

06-20-05, 05:25 PM

I figured it all up, and for the first year, it only costs me an extra 50 to get the 4805 at costco... sounds good?

I think if someone figures out the H31 nonsense, I can return the 4805 and get the H31. As much as I want the H31, HTPC is a must.

Loner

06-20-05, 05:27 PM

Now, if you're choosing one or 2 qualities that you prefer, then the choice is easier. I like good deep blacks, richs colors, and great contrast. It's hard to beat the blacks and contrast of the H31. I'm in a fairly well light-controlled room for viewing. If you have some ambient light issues to deal with, or want to be able to just take the pj out of the box and watch it without much setup fuss, the 4805 might be a better choice.

It's stuff like this that makes it so hard to give up on the H31! One of my complaints for a long time with cheaper pjs was the washed-out, murky blacks. The chance to get a pj that has great blacks (that I can actually AFFORD!) is so tempting. If the H31 has slightly better blacks and better contrast, even if only a little bit, I want it over the 4805. I don't mind the fuss is setting it up either. But I don't know if it's worth the trade-off of losing the htpc. Being a computer technician, it would kill the geek in me not to be able to use an htpc!

Don

AndrewZorn

06-20-05, 05:32 PM

Right. I want the better colors too, but if you are SURE I mean really really SURE that I will not be able to run a PC signal to it without tearing, then I want the 4805, at least until the H31 gets fixed, and hopefully I'll be able to do a Costco return.

billymac

06-20-05, 05:33 PM

or if you want to use a pc ;)

billymac

06-20-05, 05:34 PM

As much as I want the H31, HTPC is a must.

then the H31 is not for you my friend

AndrewZorn

06-20-05, 05:37 PM

now as far as 'how much worse the 4805 is', if i've never really seen a good projector in a perfectly dark situation or anything, I'd still be super-duper happy with the 4805? like stills looks better than a CRT-TV? i want to be blown away, so if im not 'comparing' them, it hardly matters, right?

the only thing i like about the 4805 that is not brokenness related is the ability to update the firmware. everything else about the h31 makes me want it sooooo bad, but i MUST have working HTPC.

EDIT oh yeah and how the 4805 can take 48hz... unless the H31 can too.

I just realized I have been categorizing the upcoming PS3 as a DVI device... but its hdmi that ill convert to dvi, and it should work since its not a htpc. but i still think the htpcness is worth it, since i need a tuner and good dvd player etc.

billymac

06-20-05, 05:41 PM

i'm telling you man, you will absolutely be blown AWAY by the 4805. get a nice 92" matte white pull down screen and you will not be disappointed.

AndrewZorn

06-20-05, 05:44 PM

i can only get a 72" max image because of my room size, and costco gives me a free 72" screen. if i get the projo off the internet, i can get a 100" screen that ill be able to use later and save 50 bucks... is it worth it, not having the guarantee/returnability? remember, i will only be able to use 72" MAX for about a year, and that 100" screen is only $80.

need some advice here before i leave work...

jedi35

06-20-05, 06:07 PM

It sounds to me like the 4805 is the right choice for you. I agree with Billy in that it will be easy to love both pjs. The 4805 can produce a killer image. After having seen it myself, I can say that I'd be proud to have one. No one can beat the Costco return policy, and a free screen from them that fits your room size? If I were you, I'd be on my way to Costco.

billymac

06-20-05, 06:11 PM

72 will be great to start! go for it man, you'll be loving it

jedi35

06-20-05, 06:14 PM

Billy,
When you say that no one has been able to eliminate tearing on the H31 in 848x480, does this include those who gave a good htpc report in the poll? I mean, does the poll let us know about who's H31 works well with no dvi or vga tearing issues, or just who can get the H31 to recognize a signal over dvi from a pc(even if tearing is still there)?

billymac

06-20-05, 06:21 PM

jedi

there are two distinct problems. 1. the digital sync and 2. tearing.

to my knowledge, even those who have been able to sync digitally to the H31 experience tearing. wayne did and so does arty. the only person that i know of who thinks they may have 86'd the tearing issue is the guy who's running linux. BUT, he's running 1280x720 which, imo, may solve the problem but creates another by throwing a softer image. the others who have lessened it's appearance have done so by raising the resolution or by playing with the refresh. again, only lessening it's presence not eliminating it.

PS and i could be totally wrong here, but i'm going to bet that the guy running linux does end up seeing it pop up again at some point.

rbastedo

06-20-05, 06:55 PM

I still get some tearing that is noticeable in scenes like heavy light sabre action in SW ep2.

My HTPC is connecting via DVI-A to the H31 so I am looking at an analog signal with a resolution of 848 x 480 @ 62hz.

Instead of a tearing line going all the way across the screen I am getting short lines where the heavy action takes place with flashing & bright scenes. The short lines don't last long and are usually limited to about 8 to 10 inches in length. This is much better than the lines that went all the way across the screen but it's still annoying.

I have heard that getting the DVI-D to work merely makes the lines sharper.

jedi35

06-20-05, 07:21 PM

So this means that the poll is reporting that 50% of H31 owners are getting a dvi-d signal from their htpcs, but they experience tearing, while 50% of them get nothing at all on dvi, right? If this is true, then we can't really say that 50% of the owners have success, because dvi with tearing is not really success IMO, because you can't watch it and enjoy it.

jedi35

06-20-05, 08:35 PM

Loner, here are some posts that Wayne made concerning the S97:

"javdog,

That Zenith DB318 will absolutely astound you upconverting over component. I have it's LG7832 counterpart and it sends a stunning image to the H31.

Zipplemeyer,

Your Panny S97 might suffer from a bit indigestion if it tries to eat the Zenith/LG player.

I compared both in my home and I eventually returned the S97 to the store. I found the upconversion to be soft and I actually preferred the S97 at 480p. So for me it seemed kind of silly to keep it if I wasn't going to use it at 720p or 1080i.

But it is a fine player and spits out a really nice image. I just didn't think that it was any better than the LG/Zenith and perhaps wasn't quite as good. But I'm a Minnesota Vikings fan so what do I know. "

Wayne

" CMRA is correct in that generally upconverting at 1080i/720p to a SVGA or WVGA projector renders a smooth film-like yet less than sharp image. This is what I observed using the Toshiba and Panasonic players.

Yet for some reason, the Zenith/LG player at 1080i doesn't appear too soft to me. I find the image quite clear and sharp but smooth as well. There seems to be a depth to the picture that I don't see on other players.

Anyway, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to purchase the Zenith/LG player for it's 480p output. The 720p isn't really good either so you buy it for the 1080i over component or DVI. That's if you can get it to work over DVI without locking up and freezing. Mine won't cooperate but I use it with component anyway."

Wayne

It's pretty clear to me that Wayne prefers his LG/Zenith player over the Panny S97. I think it's only fair to point out that the 318 is not issue free. The most recent firmware fixes the white crush over dvi but takes away it's ability to upconvert over component. However, you can easily download either firmware from the net, and updating the unit is quite simple, just choose whether you want it to work with component or dvi. The 318 may lock up with dvi, or it might not power up correctly and respond to commands when dvi is connected. I got past this by turning on the unit first, then connecting the dvi cable. The 318 shows green push to some users, still images may spill over into black screens briefly, and there are strange dots that can appear at the top of the upconverted image. Switching resolutions may fix this. Using edge masking on the H31 can also fix this. The worst issue is bad pixel cropping on the right side of the image, which cannot be fixed by either firmware. There are a few tricks to get past this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mystery

06-20-05, 09:56 PM

jedi,

I couldn't have said it better myself! :) I'm quite impressed that you were able to compile several of my 'greatest hits'. :D And I still stand by everything I said. The S97 is a terrific player and syncs beautifully with the H31 over DVI at any length of cable. I was pushing a signal from 50 feet away with it. However, it is not plug and play. You have to delve into the menus and tweak a fair bit to get the best images. To me, anything higher than 480p was not pretty. I did extensive testing and came to quite enjoy the S97 @ 480p which can be quite an expensive player at that resolution.

I then decided to revisit my LG7832/Zenith318 which I hadn't been using for a while due to all of the playing around with the Panny. Well, I was floored! Over component @ 1080i, the pictures were shockingly close to HTPC quality over DVI. I had forgotten just how good this little gem can be. Now, the Panny beats the LG/Zenith in that it doesn't have the annoying dots at the top and cropped pixels at the side and no lock up over DVI and no green push, but the Panny has had it's own issues with macroblocking and a pink tint in gray areas. The firmware has apparently for the most part fixed the Panny's problems though.

But as jedi so aptly put it, all of these problems can be addressed quite easily pertaining to the LG/Zenith. Certain displays will not be able to get rid of the green push. My Pioneer CRT RPTV is one of them concerning component but s-video is fine. However, any projector should be able to eliminate this nicely.

Don,

If you can get the S97 for half-price you will be getting a killer of a deal! However, the LG can be had for even less and requires much less work to glean a superb picture. A little edge masking here, a little horizontal shifting and/or projector zooming there, some lowering of green brightness/contrast, and voila! Shangri-La baby!

I would peg the S97 at about 80% of HTPC quality and the LG/Zenith at closer to 90%. But this is purely of course my experience and anyone/everyone else's may differ. You are wise to be thinking about re-searching the 4805. It works with an HTPC period! With the H31 you are gambling plain and simple. If you decide to go with the H31 make sure you have either one of these two DVD players because you may need to use them. And the H31 will either work with an HTPC or it won't. There isn't any in between except for my two weird failings with the H31 syncing with the HTPC after it initially worked fine.

The tearing issue with the H31 is very real and very annoying. DVD players are fine but an HTPC will more than likely exhibit this. I was able to for all intents and purposes, eliminate the tearing by going to 1280 x 720p and a resolution of 48 Hz. using PowerStrip and the ATI Radeon X700 Pro PCI Express card. However, as billymac has said, 848 x 480 is very sharp and a better resolution to work with although I would have been happy with the 1280 x 720p if only the darn H31s that I tried would have held onto a digital signal from my HTPC.

Wayne

LENNY 2112

06-20-05, 10:05 PM

Wow I can't believe every post on a budget projector all of the sudden turned into an Optoma bash...kinda makes me want to stay away from the forum. My neighbor has a SP4805 and cant even get a DVD player to work well...my S97...he is now waiting for a replacement. O'well can we make a NON-HTPC H31 thread???

billymac

06-20-05, 10:38 PM

lenny I understand you're upset about all the negative press, and it's not intended to bash optoma or upset you, but readers of this forum deserve to know the issues at hand with the projector and this thread has ultimately become a place to learn of it's shortcomings as well as it's strengths.

me2003

06-20-05, 11:20 PM

I wouldnt consider it a optoma bash there is just lot of upset people including myself who has purchased the optoma h31 and they are plagued by a few problems when using it with a pc. Now if you plan to use it with a standalone dvd player then you will have yourself a great projector and you will be happy with your purchase. I feel listing its disadvantages helps others make good buying choices. All we are trying to do is stop people from buying this product if they are going to use it with a pc.

HiHoStevo

06-21-05, 03:07 AM

It's a program you can run on your xbox, and if you have Windows XP Media Centre Edition and the xbox on your network, will allow you to view the music and videos and stuff from the MCE machine on the xbox. Could be pretty cool for those that have XP MCE and don't have XBMC. The software basically 'extends' your Media Centre into the living room.

Don

Thanks Don I appreciate the information............ I do have an MCE machine and an Xbox on the same network...........whoopie.... Oh, I forgot.. they sit next to each other in the Theater....... DOH!

jedi35

06-21-05, 04:13 AM

Lenny,
Sorry if any of my posts have come across as an Optoma bash. You have certainly earned a place of respect here. I recently posted about the deep blacks, rich colors, and excellent contrast of the H31, and that I prefer this over the brightness of the 4805. I still believe that the H31 is a great little pj, but it has some issues with htpc usage that need to be addressed by Optoma. I also feel that this is the correct thread to post strong points as well as problems with this pj.

biglyle

06-21-05, 07:14 AM

biglyle

06-21-05, 07:16 AM

Has anyone tried using a DVI to component adapter with the H31?

Will this work at giving me a second component input?

mystery

06-21-05, 07:39 AM

Lenny,

Optoma has manufactured in my opinion the best projector for it's price in the market. I remember the first time I fired it up after just having sold my X1 and I couldn't believe how much better the H31 was. Shadow details were completely revealed, color saturation was gorgeous, blacks were really black and the contrast ratio produced a depth of field that almost made me want to reach out and put my arm through the screen to find out if I wasn't just watching the screen but PARTICIPATING in the action.

Yup, this little pj is something else. I was just disappointed that my X1 worked better with a computer than the H31 did here in my home. Others apparently are happy with similar set ups.

I know I'll never bash Optoma over this issue. At least not Optoma Canada. They have responded to virtually all of my emails and have taken royal care of me personally. I have been critical of Optoma U.S.A. because it has been reported that once they have your money, they stop replying to queries. That is wrong plain and simple and Optoma should not be conducting business in this manner, even if they can't solve the problem. However, they have at least tried to reproduce the problems and that deserves kudos!

By the way, I think Optoma produces generally top-notch products. I've been thrilled with the H57 which I eventually upgraded to.

So, how's your 'theater' coming along? We're going to want to see some more pictures soon. :)

Wayne

LENNY 2112

06-21-05, 08:17 AM

"O'well can we make a NON-HTPC H31 thread???"

God, would that be nice.
There are three threads right now going on about the H31, and all three have become HTPC rleated. I just ordered an H31 last week after returning my Z3, and have no interest at all in the HTPC issue as I never plan on using one. I wish we could have one thread to talk about OTHER H31 related item.

Yea, that's what I feel that all the treads have turned away from the goodness of the projector. I totally hate it for the people that can't get their well invested HTPC to work with the H31. I guess I feel a nice Brainstorm HTPC to H31 thread would be nice, seems 50/50 on whether DVI-D connects to the PC or not. It just seems that we were moving along good, testing different modes and gammas and then Blah...that all went away. It was great unlocking all the great features and learning new things about the H31 itself.

Jedi: Thanks for your kind words, I like reading your posts as they are true to the point and very useful. I never thought you were putting down Optoma.

Mr. E: Theater is coming along great, I put in carpet last weekend. It is very dark and wow it really makes a difference, it is really starting to feel like a theater now. I'll post some pics tonight.

I watched Shark Tales and the colors in that movie are amazing, I saw it in the movie theater last year and I was very impressed with the DVD transfer.

I think my next challenge is to play with the Xbox over component (HD Pak). I'm wondering if a game would really take advantage of a different mode such as Film vs. Graphics etc. I'm thinking if Nemo and Shark Tales movies can almost look 3D I bet I can get the games to do the same.

mystery

06-21-05, 08:31 AM

Lenny,

I'm jealous! Dark carpet?! I've had to resort to laying dark blue mats over the beige carpeting. I think I'm fortunate in that using a High Power screen, most of the light reflection heads to the back of the room and of course we all know the 'Mr. E Theater' has a black back wall now. So perhaps I may not really need to change the entire carpet but if/when we do I'll push the WAF for at least something darker than beige. I don't think she'll mind. After all, any better half who'd agree to a black wall in a room probably won't object to dark carpet right? You're living proof of that! I'm sure my WAF will also not have a problem with a darker carpet.

Bring on the photos!!

Wayne

gottahavapj

06-21-05, 11:36 AM

But I'm a Minnesota Vikings fan so what do I know. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See.. now you truly are my hero Jedi, a fellow Optoma owner AND a Vikings fan. :)

Cheers!

Fokinel

06-21-05, 11:40 AM

Hi guys - it's been a slog wading through the forum (94 pages?!? :) but I've managed to get the H31 on my review list for installation into the new house. Mystery has been kind enough to answer a couple of questions and has pointed me towards the HTPC problems (I missed them in the first 60-odd pages). I haven't seen it in this particular thread but has anyone tried a DLink DSM-320 connection into the H31? Around 80% of my movies/TV Shows are stored on a PC, and so far this has been an adequate solution to view them on the TV. I'm wondering if the source will show enough inadequacy through a projector to make it useless.
Thanks - Craig

guitarman

06-21-05, 02:51 PM

"O'well can we make a NON-HTPC H31 thread???"

God, would that be nice.
There are three threads right now going on about the H31, and all three have become HTPC rleated. I just ordered an H31 last week after returning my Z3, and have no interest at all in the HTPC issue as I never plan on using one. I wish we could have one thread to talk about OTHER H31 related item.

This is a good concept. Looks like the HTPC poll thread would be a great place to keep up on results. Leave this old thread for basic Home Theater hook ups. If you want I'll post a warning up in the first post about the possiblity of not getting your HTPC to work.

Remember we can get a 1.1 pixel map with the Bravo D1, D2 only problem is the D2's output isn't as strong as the D1. It will work with a 6' cable but not a 30'cable. I'm pretty sure the D1 would be no problem and I plan on getting one to test. The other upscaling players are good and a smart MFG if they could could add a 854X480 resolution, maybe the Oppo guys. The Tosh I have does 480p, 720p, 1080i & 1024X768. So why not add in the new 480p match or 854X480. Maybe we could email support areas of the different manufacturers. The oppos guys are pretty accessible.

billymac

06-21-05, 03:08 PM

jedi35

06-21-05, 04:40 PM

Tom and Lenny,
Perhaps you are right. I didn't know that there were 3 threads on the H31, since I just have this one bookmarked, and all 3 are now focusing on the htpc issues. That's not really fair. Tom, I think you may have answered this before, but do you think my 5 meter dvi cable is too long to work with the D2? I love my 318, but the possibility of having an even sharper but pixel mapped image is tugging at me.

gottahavapj,
Hey man, I'd love to be your hero, but I have to pass the glory on to Wayne, Mr. E. I was just quoting his earlier post(several pages back) when he said that he was a Vikings fan.

guitarman

06-21-05, 04:49 PM

guitarman

06-21-05, 04:53 PM

Tom, can you do us a favor and ping your sources over at Optoma to find out if they're even working on these two issues? They won't even respond to us anymore. We'd sure appreciate it. If they're not going to do anything about it, we'd sure like to know so we can not hold out any false hope.

I should talk to them again this week I'll ask for the latest.

mystery

06-21-05, 05:50 PM

jedi,

Thanks for clarifying the Minnesota Vikings issue for me.

gottahavapj,

Yup, it's true. I'm a purple people eater fan. :) Now if you'd be so kind as to fax me my 'Hero Application Form', I'd be happy to review and sign it. :D

How's it going on the job front by the way?

Wayne

Numerikflip

06-21-05, 05:54 PM

Jedi, I can tell you I tested two long dvi cables and neither worked, one was 25' the other 30'. Only the 6' cable would work and without a hitch. I'd really like to see some of the other players add a 854X480. You'd have better luck with a Bravo D1 I think.

Just started reading the thread (HUGE!) Haven't gotten to this part. Is there an issue with the H31 and long DVI cables? Or is this only an issues with a certain DVD players?

I ask because I just ordered an H31 with an Oppo 971H, the DVI cable itselgf will be 25-30 feet.

Thanks in advance.

mystery

06-21-05, 06:05 PM

The H31 works just fine with very long cables. Of course, you should have good quality cables and a compatible component such as a DVD player with enough 'oomph' to get the signal to the projector or a computer that syncs well with the H31.

I have a 50 foot cable that worked flawlessly sending images to the H31 via the S97 or the Toshiba upconverting player and even for a time in conjunction with a computer.

Wayne

Numerikflip

06-21-05, 06:16 PM

Thanks for the response mystery

mystery

06-21-05, 06:19 PM

Numerikflip,

No problem. Write a review once you've received your H31.

Good luck!!

Wayne

guitarman

06-21-05, 07:06 PM

Just started reading the thread (HUGE!) Haven't gotten to this part. Is there an issue with the H31 and long DVI cables? Or is this only an issues with a certain DVD players?

I ask because I just ordered an H31 with an Oppo 971H, the DVI cable itselgf will be 25-30 feet.

Thanks in advance.

It's the players and projectors. Here's a run down from what I've seen.

Bravo D1 will work with my 30' DVI cable with the H31, HT1000 and H79.
Bravo D2 won't work with this cable with the H31 and HT1000 but will work with the H79.

Toshiba 5970 will work with this cable with all the machines.

Uggh I think I tried the Oppo with this cable and the H31 and it was a no go. I'm not sure though better ask around. Anybody using an Oppo with a 30' DVI cable to the H31 and getting no problems?

guitarman

06-21-05, 07:36 PM

Pray for a miracle, I just talked to the Oppo techs and they say they'll look into adding a 854X480 res. They didn't realize the profit potential for this resolution. They know it now, come on 854X480!

baconman

06-21-05, 08:02 PM

me2003

06-21-05, 08:24 PM

Hopefully they get the oppo to add the 854 x 480 resolution, because i would really like to purchase that player since it not very expensive and it support divx file playback and from what i read there are alot of happy people with that player.

guitarman

06-21-05, 08:27 PM

7.5 that's about a 25 footer. It is a high end expensive cable? You say needs to cycle, what exactly do you mean? For me I got zero picture.

You're giving up the 1.1 pixel match with the Oppo but picking up the Faroudja. The real good news about the Oppo is they're fixing the EE. If they can add the 854X480 H31 owners will be all set.

"I may end up moving the dvd player closer to the h31 in the long haul, but I would prefer not to."

That's a way around the problem also. You can easily get super long optical cable to run the sound far over to your equipment rack.

fleaman

06-21-05, 08:57 PM

I have a Momitsu V880DX with a 25ft DVI cable that cost me $40....no problems with that. The Momitsu does custom resolutions and I have had success with 854x480...but don't have all the parameters perfect, not sure how to come about them. Also, the Momitsu is region free and you can disable the Macrovison.

Strangely, I think the Momitsu is a Bravo underneath in some way because my menus are exactly the same as Guitarmans (menu) screen shots...even the default settings that come up under the custom dvi resolutions menu were exactly the same as Guitarmans....but I haven't had any problems with the 25ft dvi cable so far.

If anyone has 854x480 custom resolution settings that work well with the H31, please share (looking for the perfect #'s of course!)

Fleaman

rbastedo

06-21-05, 10:28 PM

"O'well can we make a NON-HTPC H31 thread???"

Tom, maybe you should add "don't post any problems with this PJ or Optoma" at the beginning of this thread.

Some of us feel that every potential H31 buyer should be made aware that:

1.) the only likely success they will have is if they use a 6 foot DVI cable and a stand alone dvd player, cable box or other non-htpc device.

2.) Otherwise this PJ will possibly (or probably) will not work as expected.

I agree with most that viewing content on this PJ is fantastic when #1 above is the scenario.

There is now at least one confirmed case of someone who bought a 4805 instead of the H31 because of warnings given here about the H31 not working well with HTPC's. That is a good thing, one less disappointed AVS subscriber.

Oh, and there is the small matter of their support - beyond a couple of answers that make no sense ("all signals over DVI are digital" etc...) they are silent to all pleadings for help. Hopefully none of you non-htpc users will encounter a problem

- God help you if you do.

The biggest issue here IMHO is the lack of intelligent persistent support from Optoma. Their "less than genius" responses to legitimate support issues and their lack of willingness to engage with their paying customers. Several of us have continued to ask them for help only to be met with numbing silence.

HiHoStevo

06-22-05, 04:32 AM

On the Good News Front........... Optoma is doing something about a panning bug on the H77 (an older projector than the H31)!

The fact that Optoma is stepping up to the plate on this H77 issue which like the HTPC/H31 does not bother everyone, I feel bodes well for the folks that want to run an HTPC with their H31.

Good for Optoma......... Whoopee

Let us hope that this is just an example of future support for all of Optoma's Customers!

Go Wing.... Go Wing...........

RBurnthorn

06-22-05, 05:10 AM

For the cost of this projector, it stands out in PQ over the current crop of projectors in this price range, if you are using a stand alone player and have no intention of using an HTPC, then this projector was the obvious choice for me.

When I was looking at this PJ, I wanted to know about the HTPC issue and felt it was an important factor, but in my particular case, an HTPC just wasn't the primary concern. I made that choice based on picture quality, size, and warranty, and I appreciate the hard work everyone here has put in determining the problems associated to the DVI-D issues.

biglyle

06-22-05, 07:24 AM

Some of just dont give a crap about the HTPC issue. It should be in its own thread, that way people interested in the other aspects of the PJ dont have to wade through 100 pages of the same thing over and over.

LuisGerena

06-22-05, 07:34 AM

Does that mean that with a Bravo, for example, I will be able to use the DVI input?
Regards

LENNY 2112

06-22-05, 08:15 AM

I agree that anybody wanting the H31 for a HTPC should be told to look at the 4805 or XYZ projector. That is what this forum is for, I think it should even be a sticky and stand out for a "Warning H31 HTPC Problems". I don't think that every thread that mentions an H31 needs to have the issue brought up. If I came into this forum now and wanted to buy a beginner projector and a decent DVD player I would hate to have to look through this thread and hear about the HTPC issues...and every H31 thread after that. It is just my opinion, but if I came in here I would see nothing but the HTPC problems and would probably scatch the H31 off the list. I'm glad I never scratched the H31 off my list, I've seen the 4805 and H31 on the same DVD player...I like the PQ of the H31 much better. But I may be the only one that feels this way...

floridapoolboy

06-22-05, 08:53 AM

I'm with you! I mentioned getting tired of all the HTPC gripes some time ago, and while I understand their concern, it needs to be confined to it's own thread. The H31 is a terrific beginners PJ, and can't be beat in terms of picture quality with my DVD and HDTV sat. The users with HTPC problems are out of luck, apparently, but everyone else looking for an entry level PJ should check out this one. Oh yeah, FYI, I run a 25 foot HDMI cable with a pair of HDMI/DVI adapters with no problems at all. And, my H31 came with an adapter in the box!

LENNY 2112

06-22-05, 09:25 AM

New darker capet.

I will be painting the risers flat black and capped the tops with carpet.

http://pic14.picturetrail.com/VOL547/3684429/7592806/101631057.jpg

http://pic14.picturetrail.com/VOL547/3684429/7592806/101631047.jpg

http://pic14.picturetrail.com/VOL547/3684429/7592806/101631039.jpg

http://pic14.picturetrail.com/VOL547/3684429/7592806/101631032.jpg

guitarman

06-22-05, 11:00 AM

dropzone7

06-22-05, 12:00 PM

Lenny, nice pictures! It's really coming along. What are the 2x4 frames at the walls? Are you building faux columns to house your surround speakers or will they serve some other purpose? Do you plan to celing mount the projector or use the tripod as it is now? I was experimenting with my SP4800 the other night and moved my screen down to where I think it would need to be to accomodate ceiling mounting the H31. Wow, it's only about 17" from the floor which is a lot different than what I'm used to. However, when I moved it down and then tilted the projector to compensate for the new screen location I realized just how out of alignment my projector had been. All this time my screen has been mounted about 18" from the ceiling and I had my projector tilted up to meet the top of the screen. As it is now, the projector is parallel to the ceiling surface as it should be. I think I actually like this look better aside from the fact that my second row cannot see over the front now. I guess what I'm saying is that maybe the H31 won't be as low as a thought and actually is fairly close to what my SP4800's offset REALLY is. Also, I would probably mount the H31 a good bit closer to the ceiling which would bring my screen back up a little. I really noticed a difference in ceiling reflections with the screen closer to the floor. More of the light is directed back into the room instead of bouncing off of the ceiling and taking away from the picture. This may work out after all.

guitarman

06-22-05, 12:28 PM

Fleaman,

Hey, just messing around this morning with D2/H31 optoma. I got a read back of 854X480 - 60000hz - Mode84 with these settings. Pixel crop zero, Overscan zero.

Hor Freq 47900, Vertical Freq 5994
Vid width 0854, Video height 0480
Hsync 1312 PreHsync 0016
Hsactive 0096 PostHsync 0176
Vstotal 0800 Prevsyn 0001
Vs active 0003 Postvsync 0028
Hspolarity0001 Vsynpolarity 0001

HiHoStevo

06-22-05, 12:35 PM

Tom,

Have you had problems with the D2 and a long DVI cable with all your projectors or just the H31?

Loner

06-22-05, 12:42 PM

Loner, here are some posts that Wayne made concerning the S97:

"I compared both in my home and I eventually returned the S97 to the store. I found the upconversion to be soft and I actually preferred the S97 at 480p. So for me it seemed kind of silly to keep it if I wasn't going to use it at 720p or 1080i. But it is a fine player and spits out a really nice image. I just didn't think that it was any better than the LG/Zenith and perhaps wasn't quite as good. But I'm a Minnesota Vikings fan so what do I know. "

Anyway, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to purchase the Zenith/LG player for it's 480p output. The 720p isn't really good either so you buy it for the 1080i over component or DVI. That's if you can get it to work over DVI without locking up and freezing. Mine won't cooperate but I use it with component anyway."

It's pretty clear to me that Wayne prefers his LG/Zenith player over the Panny S97. I think it's only fair to point out that the 318 is not issue free. The most recent firmware fixes the white crush over dvi but takes away it's ability to upconvert over component. However, you can easily download either firmware from the net, and updating the unit is quite simple, just choose whether you want it to work with component or dvi. The 318 may lock up with dvi, or it might not power up correctly and respond to commands when dvi is connected. I got past this by turning on the unit first, then connecting the dvi cable. The 318 shows green push to some users, still images may spill over into black screens briefly, and there are strange dots that can appear at the top of the upconverted image. Switching resolutions may fix this. Using edge masking on the H31 can also fix this. The worst issue is bad pixel cropping on the right side of the image, which cannot be fixed by either firmware. There are a few tricks to get past this.

Wow, that's quite the list! I edited it down of course. When I was reading through the thread trying to catch up, it had stood out that Wayne liked both of them pretty good, but I guess Wayne really liked the 318 a little bit more! Although from his quotes it seems he only likes the 318 at 1080i, and the S97 was good at 480p. Seeing the S97 on an 8700 at 720p looked great! Nice and sharp, no weirdness or anything that I could find. I would be VERY happy with that picture. Of course, that wasn't on the H31, and on the H31 things might match up a little differently. There seems to be a number of "issues" with the 318 that I would have to work around tho. The reason I would be going with a DVD player over an htpc would be to get away from the hassles. Doesn't sound like it with this player. I would probably like the picture, but be annoyed with some of its issues. Still, it might be worth looking into!

If you can get the S97 for half-price you will be getting a killer of a deal! However, the LG can be had for even less and requires much less work to glean a superb picture. A little edge masking here, a little horizontal shifting and/or projector zooming there, some lowering of green brightness/contrast, and voila! Shangri-La baby!

It's not quite half-price for the S97 but pretty close to it. You say the 318 is even cheaper? Hmm, where can I find one in our area? I've looked around but haven't seen it yet. The fact that it seems to do up-conversion over component could be handy for a friend of mine. Of course, I am sorta trying to talk him into replacing his Benq6100 with the H31 as he wants better pq. But if I could find a 318 for a good price, it might be worth getting that and then the H31. Decisions, decisions.

Wow I can't believe every post on a budget projector all of the sudden turned into an Optoma bash...kinda makes me want to stay away from the forum. My neighbor has a SP4805 and cant even get a DVD player to work well...my S97...he is now waiting for a replacement. O'well can we make a NON-HTPC H31 thread???
lenny I understand you're upset about all the negative press, and it's not intended to bash optoma or upset you, but readers of this forum deserve to know the issues at hand with the projector and this thread has ultimately become a place to learn of it's shortcomings as well as it's strengths.

Lenny, what billymac said! PLEASE don't take this as bashing Optoma! I am VERY interested in the pj despite its problems. But I don't think it would be fair to view it through rose-coloured glasses either! (wonder if you could calibrate that out? Hmmm...) It honestly and truly is an issue for me that is preventing me from buying it. If no one discussed this, I would blindly have purchased it and then end up very upset with it. It may be a budget pj, but it's still a lot of money for me. I certainly don't expect perfection, and would happily recommend someone to check it out if they aren't planning on using a pc on it. For me tho, I need to find a way to get the pc to work. My hopes with these discussions are that someone will find a way around it, or maybe we will discover that Optoma has fixed the issue on newer units (or it was something that was messed up in production on the first units), or something along those lines. I don't ultimately view the discussions as bashing, even tho some people are vocal about their unhappiness (which is their right of course). I view it as an attempt to turn the issue into something positive. Look at the 318. Jedi35 tells me it is an extremely good dvd player. He then rattles off a list of issues and problems with it, also tells me that one can work around it. Now I can make an informed decision if I want to buy it or not. The work has already been done to find workarounds and are probably well known now. I imagine that at some point down the road the htpc issue will exhaust itself, and people will know its good and bad points, and know the workarounds. We are still trying to discover them all at this point. I do imagine that for people that aren't using htpc's it is all unneccesary reading and maybe annoying, but I figure the thread is big enough for the pros and cons. If people want just a "H31 is great and here's why" type thread, couldn't someone just start one? I am sure it will take off in no time! This seems to be the original thread about the H31, and I've been reading it since it started pretty much, and lord knows it has pretty much convinced me to buy one! So I can't say it's all negative! :) Some people might get the impression that the pj "sucks" and shoudl stay away from it, but if they are planning on using an htpc with it, they SHOULD stay away at this point. I think there are enough other comments about how good it is otherwise that if they do even a little bit of reading, they will know they SHOULD buy it if they are not using an htpc (hopefully this all makes sense)

Nice pics of your theatre by the way, it's really coming along nice! Gonna help a friend redo his in the fall, looking forward to it! Wish I could do one of my own!

Thanks Don I appreciate the information............ I do have an MCE machine and an Xbox on the same network...........whoopie.... Oh, I forgot.. they sit next to each other in the Theater....... DOH!

DOH! is right! If they sit next to each other, I guess there isn't much point using the xbox to play stuff from your MCE when you have your MCE hooked up as well! LOL!

Pray for a miracle, I just talked to the Oppo techs and they say they'll look into adding a 854X480 res. They didn't realize the profit potential for this resolution. They know it now, come on 854X480!

What is this Oppo of which you speak? I wonder if the 854x480 rez would be a firmware upgrade or a new model? I want to look up some info on it. If it would do 1:1 mapping, it would be worth taking a look as well. Who knows, I may eventually switch over to "just" a dvd player. I could use less hassles in life anyways!

Don
(wonder if there is a message size limit?)

SweChris

06-22-05, 12:49 PM

HiHoStevo

06-22-05, 01:28 PM

LENNY 2112

06-22-05, 02:01 PM

I'm new to this forum and to pj . I'm planning to get a H31 soon. I would like to use it with Xbox 360 when it arrives, are those compatible (based on DVI-D problem)? Is there any drawbacks using 16:9 for videogames instead of 4:3.

Chris

Perfect example of the FEAR we are putting in these people...Oh DVI doesn't work on the H31!!! I think the HTPC problem is really sounding different more and more.

Loner: thanks for the comments, can't wait for the room to be done! Would it be easier for someone NEW to read a sticky that there is a problem with the H31 and HTPC rather than read a 90 page thread.

Xbox 360 will work with Composite, S-video, Component (HD) and VGA (HD)

guitarman

06-22-05, 02:58 PM

Tom,

Have you had problems with the D2 and a long DVI cable with all your projectors or just the H31?

With the 30' cable I got no signal with the H31 and my HT1000. With the same cable I got a signal on both the HT1000 and H31 but with the Bravo D1. People interested in the D2 which is awesome by the way, could first try a high end cable like an Ethereal or an easy way would be to locate the DVD player closer to the projector and run a super long optical sound cable over to the far away equipment rack.

Loner

06-22-05, 03:58 PM

Perfect example of the FEAR we are putting in these people...Oh DVI doesn't work on the H31!!! I think the HTPC problem is really sounding different more and more.

Loner: thanks for the comments, can't wait for the room to be done! Would it be easier for someone NEW to read a sticky that there is a problem with the H31 and HTPC rather than read a 90 page thread.

Xbox 360 will work with Composite, S-video, Component (HD) and VGA (HD)

I agree, there is always that chance... people will start questioning everything. Still, if we started an htpc-only thread, what's to stop the same person from reading that thread and asking the same question? For the guy asking about the Xbox 360, the obvious answer is that it is waaaayy to early to even speculate. I don't know if it has dvi, but if it does, no one has one yet, so how would anyone know? It's an unanswerable question. Now, my GUESS is that if it DOES have dvi, it would work the same as any set-top dvd player. Guess only. I also guess it would look spectacular too! Ya, a sticky would be easier for the uninitiated to zero in on the possibility of issues. Only thing is, I don't know if we are finished "compiling the list", so to speak. The pj is still new enough that people are still finding out what works and what doesn't, so we are still building that list. Hopefully there will also be some work-arounds to put on that list too, but alas, we are still trying to find those out. Although more and more, it seems like the htpc issue is becoming a dead issue. People have put a huge effort into trying to find something that works reliably, and they keep coming up against a wall every time. I've been hoping that the newest ones off the line might have been quietly fixed (specifications subject to change at any time, don't all the manuals say that?) and that people would start reporting that everything is working fine... one can dream right? I guess what I gotta do now is decide whether I can live without the htpc. AND get over to the Mystery Theatre to see what Optoma is capable of! (and hope the H57 and the H31 are close enough in overall quality!)

Don

guitarman

06-22-05, 04:10 PM

Tom, can you do us a favor and ping your sources over at Optoma to find out if they're even working on these two issues? They won't even respond to us anymore. We'd sure appreciate it. If they're not going to do anything about it, we'd sure like to know so we can not hold out any false hope.

Wing told me today there's an engineer right by him that's working on HTPC with the H31 right now. They've read some of the User's equipment here and put together similar setups. So yes they're looking at it.

billymac

06-22-05, 04:15 PM

Thanks for asking Tom. I really appreciate it. And it's good to know at least someone's listening I guess, even if they aren't responding. Time will tell I guess. Please share with us anything you learn in the future. Maybe there's a strand of a chance that they'll have a firmware fix.

mystery

06-22-05, 04:33 PM

Loner

06-22-05, 05:42 PM

Don,

The H57 and H31 are indeed fairly close in quality. I find that contrast ratio and blacks are about the same. Where the H57 seems to pull away is in color saturation, color accuracy, and showing less pixellation. Shadow detail is identical. Oh, and the H57 is even brighter than the H31.

Of course, the H57 seems to not be plagued by the HTPC issues on the H31 so that's a plus too. If the H31 synced consistently with a computer, I probably would advise that the H57 may not be worth the extra money. That again depends on what's important to you. For me, overall I'd recommend the upgrade if one can afford it.

Wayne

So it sounds like I will be able to judge a lot of what the H31 will give me off the H57. It's not like I would see the H57 then become dissapointed with the H31... I am not sure what an H57 runs for (I guess I could google it) but my guess it that it is a LOT more, in which case it would be out of my budget. I don't mind spending a little more to get something better, but I am not at the point where I can spend a LOT more :( Found a place around here that has the 318 (thanks Wayne!) although it is only marginally cheaper than the S97... gonna go check it out tho I think. Might be able to make a decision on a pj real soon, so I guess I better figure something out! Toms comments that Optoma enigineers are trying to replicate the problem with similar equipment are rather exciting to me, to say the least. If they figure out what is going on, maybe they can offer a firmware patch and then life will be all rosey again! And I'll have me a pj.

Don

baconman

06-22-05, 06:18 PM

it wasn't an expensive cable... i don't know the brand right off my head.

when i say "cycling" i mean that i keep the movie playing and then hit "tv mode" on the remote through all the dvi signals until it picks up. it will take about 10 full cycles (about 1min) before the timing is in sync.
then you're set until the next movie. :)

as of today, i am thinking the d2 still has nicer img quality, but i am keeping the oppo until the firmware to see if it fixes what i need.

-r

guitarman

06-22-05, 06:44 PM

Thx, I'll try it out. TV (res change button) just keep hitting it. Ok got it. I will admit I did get a picture a couple of times to my astonishment with the long cable, but it was no picture most of the time. Lets see if the tip helps me.

guitarman

06-22-05, 06:49 PM

"For you guys using DVI here's the numbers for D65k

First in the service area setting up Image/Film gamma 1
Picture -
Gain Red 167
Gain Gr 158
Gain Bl 155

Bias Red 123
Bias Gr 125
Bias Bl 125

DLP's are all at 32

Next PC gamma 1
Service picture area remains the same, just use the User Advanced RGB

Red Contrast minus 2
Gr Contrast 0
Bl Contrast 0

Red Brightness 1
Gr Brightness 0
BL Brightness 1
"

Hey some of you guys are using upscaling players thru the DVI input. How come you didn't try my numbers? Not chicken are ya :)

It if works you got a free ISF tunup.

mystery

06-22-05, 06:54 PM

Don,

The H57 runs about double the cost of the H31. The MSRP has dropped recently but not all vendors have followed suit. So it's important to think it through carefully. You'll have a better idea whether to rob a bank or not once you've seen mine. :D

Wayne

HiHoStevo

06-22-05, 07:42 PM

Tom.......... I had a thought! (amazing I know)

Being that you have gone to all the trouble to come up with some excellent numbers for folks to start with on their projectors.... Have you ever considered sending Wing your numbers?

As Optoma has a reputation for great colors, but that their projectors "generally" are not quite as good in their out-of-the-box calibration (ie: need a little more tweaking)... It seems that Wing could use the numbers you have for their production guys to insert into the machines. It seems a pity not to make full use of all the effort you have gone to!

guitarman

06-22-05, 08:56 PM

Wing has colorfacts and the optic 1 from the company. But just for engineering purposes. All the Optoma projectors are tuned in Taiwan. They're tuned with an automated reference system in massive amounts. They tune them at start for high contrast mainly. Most projectors are a little high above 6500k from the factory, Sharps, Seleco's etc

jedi35

06-23-05, 06:21 AM

Tom,
Yep, I keep wondering about this 5m dvi cable I have, and the D2. It's about 16 feet long, which is almost 10 feet shorter than your 25 footer. Being the optomist that I am, I'm hoping that a signal will get through to the H31. Ofcourse, the safe thing to do would be to buy one from a place that has a good return policy. BTW, D2s are kind of hard to find, aren't they?

Oh, I printed out your D65k dvi numbers. I just haven't gotten around to trying them out, but I will. Thanks.

Loner,
Tell your friend that I upgraded from the Benq 6100 to the H31, and it was a night and day difference in all areas. He won't believe the blacks that are possible with the H31 after having the 6100. I've seen $13K pjs that have blacks and colors that are maybe a little better, but not by much. The higher end pjs do have smaller pixels, however.

The Oppo 971H upconverting dvd player is an exciting new unit that claims to be the first at upconversion to 1080p. It seems that the company is responsive to user requests, which is great, and if they achieved 854/480 as a resolution, they would most likely offer a new firmware to make it backwards compatible with all units. I just wonder how the picture quality compares with the D2.

Lenny,
Great room pics!! I'm so jealous.

Chris,
Gamers would have the advantage of a higher resolution 4:3 image on an svga 4:3 pj, as a 16:9 pj fits this inside its borders, thereby using less of the wsvga dlp chip/lcd panels. You'll get less than 854/480 with the H31 on 4:3 games unless you choose to view the game in one of the widescreen modes(so you can use the whole chip), but you'll loose some of the image. An svgs 4:3 pj would use the entire chip(or all panels) at 800x600 for the same image. You also get the advantage of a bigger image if you go with a 4:3 screen. A 100" diagonal on this is a lot bigger than what you would get on a 100" diagonal 16:9 screen. I speak from experience, as I sacrificed the huge size of my 100" 4:3 image for the beauty of the H31's widescreen image, which is about 84"(diagonal) in my room. The widescreen image is the same size as what I was getting before, it's just that I can't go super-big anymore.

rbastedo,
Yes, I feel ya , man. However, I would hope that readers would see the multitude of posts where H31 users are getting results with dvi cables much longer than 6'. Mr. E is quite happy with his 50 footer. Aside from the D2, it seems that longer cables should work well with stand alone boxes hooked up to the H31.

Well guys, I'm off to Michigan, leaving behind my wonderful H31 until sometime in August. It'll be a few days before I can check back in, due to internet setup. Take care...

BTW, the central air fan will be cycling air constantly through my home while I'm gone, but I'm turning off the ac. Temps in here could get up to near 90. Would this be a problem for the H31? I hope not, since the unit gets pretty darn hot when it's on.

mystery

06-23-05, 07:58 AM

Lenny,

Your photos make me want to live in your movie room! I don't think I'll be able to stand it when it's finished!! :)

jedi,

Have a safe and happy time in northern Michigan. If you change your mind and decide to get away for a day, come on over to the 'Mystery Theater'.

Wayne

LENNY 2112

06-23-05, 08:20 AM

Thanks for the comments guys!

Tom you probably mentioned how to do this but I don't know how to get in the service area? I looked for the post but can't find it. I would like to try your numbers and see what the results are! Thanks

mystery

06-23-05, 08:32 AM

Lenny,

I found this on page 28 of this thread for you originally posted by Tom/Guitarman:

Service code
Up + Enter 2X
Left + Enter 2X

Up + Left + Down 1X

Move around with cross controls, enter to enter an area, in some spots enter will back you out, if not menu will back you out.

These buttons apparently must be keyed in on the unit itself, not the remote.

Wayne

Loner

06-23-05, 10:13 AM

Guitarman,
Regarding the numbers you posted and the "It if works you got a free ISF tunup", wouldn't those numbers be dependant upon other factors as well? As in, the colours or lightness of your walls, your screen, etc? Wouldn't a high-gain screen give different numbers than a gray one? What about having black walls as opposed to cream-coloured walls? The amount of washing out from reflected light would affect it all, would it not? Or am I missing something here? I've always been curious, so I figured I had better ask!

Mystery,
ya, robbing a bank might be the only answer right now! There are so many other things I want to do too! But ya, thinking it through carefully is what I have been doing a lot of! One thing I thought through this morning on the way in to work is that I wouldn't be able to live without a pc hooked up in some way. I don't care too much if it's dvi or vga, but I need to be able to connect. It seems with vga I will always be able to get a picture, but I will have to put up with the tearing. Does ANYONE have a quick video clip of this in action so I can see it for myself? If it's not too bad, I might be able to put up with it for playing music, (which won't be an issue), the odd bit of surfing when I need to get something, and for playing files from across my network, whether it's the odd tv show or something. I could leave the serious dvd playing to a dedicated player. So a clip of the tearing 'in action' would be nice if someone has one. I might just decide that it's not worth worrying about.

Jedi35,
Thanks for the model number, I'll have to do some looking into this unit as well. 1:1 pixel mapping sounds interesting if they do it, hopefully we'll get some favourable reporst if/when!

Don

LENNY 2112

06-23-05, 10:14 AM

Thanks Mr. E

dccebby

06-23-05, 10:37 AM

Should I expect to see some blurring of picture while watching fast moving scenes i.e. sports programs on the H31.

therapyjon

06-23-05, 10:43 AM

dropzone7

06-23-05, 11:39 AM

billymac

06-23-05, 12:09 PM

I hadn't looked at this thread for a week and I was surprised the HTPC was still a hot topic. I've been successfully using my h31 with my 17" powerbook from the getgo. Last night I noticed what I'm pretty sure is the "tearing" effect. Twice I noticed a horizontal line come up from bottom to top. But it only happened two times. Is this the beginning of something worse or just an occasional aberration?

For those who haven't seen my other posts, I'm using a 6' dvi to dvi Monster 400 synched at 848x480

Thank, Jonathan

the tearing is something that nobody has been able to resolve. it was always there, you probably are just now seeing it. it typically happens at scene changes, fast moving pans and fast action scenes. hopefully you'll be able to live with it. otherwise, you're going to have to use a standalone player.

consider yourself among the lucky who can sync digitally

fleaman

06-23-05, 12:26 PM

If that is 'tearing' then I've seen it too on my Momitsu dvd player thru DVI at certain custom settings. I'm still trying to find the perfect custom setting (will try Guitarmans setting in the Momitsu thread), but for now I'm just using the default 480p setting (at 720p I assume).

For me, the tearing results from the settings, not the set up (since other settings don't 'tear').

Fleaman

billymac

06-23-05, 12:35 PM

you're the first person i've heard of that's seen tearing from a stand-alone. that's very interesting.

fleaman

06-23-05, 12:42 PM

I don't get the 'tearing' (quick horizontal line at scene changes, etc) at the default settings and there were a couple custom (854x480) settings that it didn't happen on...but those settings cropped pixels from the side (about 4 per side).

Hence the reason (for me) that it's a result of the settings, not my set up.

Fleaman

idanhakia

06-23-05, 02:18 PM

i have been able to get a perfect picture from my 2 months old H31 thru DVI D connection at any resolustion

i used the Monoinfo to see if i can get more specific E-DID information and look what i got.

Monitor
Windows description......... OTM Monitor
Manufacturer description.... Optoma H31
Manufacturer................ OTM
————————————————————————————
Plug and Play ID............ OTM3348
Serial number............... 
EDID data source............ I2C bus (real-time)
————————————————————————————
Manufacture date............ 2005, ISO week 2
EDID revision............... 1.3
Display type and signal..... Digital
Sync input support.......... n/a
Screen size................. n/a
Power management............ n/a

Color characteristics
Display gamma............... 2.20
Red chromaticity............ Rx 0.642 - Ry 0.350
Green chromaticity.......... Gx 0.306 - Gy 0.652
Blue chromaticity........... Bx 0.136 - By 0.073
White point (default)....... Wx 0.296 - Wy 0.314

Timing characteristics
VESA GTF support............ Not supported
Horizontal scan range....... 16-69kHz
Vertical scan range......... 43-85Hz
Video bandwidth............. 170MHz
Extension blocks............ 1
Timing recommendation #1.... 848x480 at 60Hz
Modeline................ "848x480" 33.750 848 864 976 1088 480 486 494 517 -hsync -vsync
Timing recommendation #2.... 720x480 at 60Hz
Modeline................ "720x480" 27.000 720 736 798 858 480 489 495 525 -hsync -vsync
Timing recommendation #3.... 720x576 at 50Hz
Modeline................ "720x576" 27.000 720 732 796 864 576 581 586 625 -hsync -vsync
Timing recommendation #4.... 1280x720 at 60Hz
Modeline................ "1280x720" 74.250 1280 1390 1430 1650 720 725 730 750 +hsync +vsync
Timing recommendation #5.... 1920x540 at 60Hz
Modeline................ "1920x540" 74.170 1920 2008 2052 2200 540 542 547 562 +hsync +vsync

Standard timings supported
640 x 480 at 60Hz - IBM VGA
640 x 480 at 72Hz - VESA
640 x 480 at 75Hz - VESA
640 x 480 at 85Hz - VESA
720 x 400 at 70Hz - IBM VGA
720 x 405 at 85Hz - VESA
720 x 480 at 60Hz - OTM
720 x 576 at 50Hz - OTM
800 x 600 at 56Hz - VESA
800 x 600 at 60Hz - VESA
800 x 600 at 72Hz - VESA
800 x 600 at 75Hz - VESA
800 x 600 at 85Hz - VESA
848 x 480 at 60Hz - OTM
1024 x 768 at 43Hz - IBM 8514a
1024 x 768 at 60Hz - VESA
1024 x 768 at 70Hz - VESA
1024 x 768 at 75Hz - VESA
1024 x 768 at 85Hz - VESA
1280 x 720 at 60Hz - OTM
1280 x 1024 at 60Hz - VESA
1920 x 540 at 60Hz - OTM

Raw EDID base
00: 00 FF FF FF FF FF FF 00 3E 8D 48 33 03 04 00 00
10: 02 0F 01 03 80 00 00 78 0A 64 FE A4 59 4E A7 22
20: 12 4B 50 AF DE 00 31 59 3B D9 45 59 61 59 81 80
30: 01 01 01 01 01 01 2F 0D 50 F0 30 E0 25 10 10 70
40: 68 00 00 00 00 00 00 18 00 00 00 FF 00 4F 38 31
50: 47 35 30 32 41 31 30 32 37 0A 00 00 00 FC 00 4F
60: 70 74 6F 6D 61 20 48 33 31 0A 20 20 00 00 00 FD
70: 00 2B 55 10 45 11 00 0A 20 20 20 20 20 20 01 5A

Raw EDID extension (CEA-861)
00: 02 03 0C 00 47 02 03 11 12 05 84 00 8C 0A D0 8A
10: 20 E0 2D 10 10 3E 96 00 00 00 00 00 00 18 8C 0A
20: D0 90 20 40 31 20 0C 40 55 00 00 00 00 00 00 18
30: 01 1D 00 72 51 D0 1E 20 6E 28 55 00 00 00 00 00
40: 00 1E F9 1C 80 18 71 1C 16 20 58 2C 25 00 00 00
50: 00 00 00 1E 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 00 00 FF 00 00
60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 00 00 FF
70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 43

Display adapter
Adapter description......... Auxiliary port
Adapter device ID........... 0x4E681002
Display settings............ n/a

User/computer information
Registered user name........ Idan
Registered organization..... n/a
Network user name........... idan
Network computer name....... IDAN-B462855697
Windows version ............ Windows XP
Windows build .............. 5.01.2600 Service Pack 2
Installation date .......... 20/04/2005 12:00:00

------------------------
im using normal Sapphire Radeon 9800 Pro
with the latest ATI DRIVERS
and windows XP 2.

guitarman

06-23-05, 03:21 PM

I have a 7.5meter cable working with the H31 and a D2, but it's not always consistent. Sometimes I need to cycle through the settings.

I tried a 40' dvi last night and no luck.

I got the oppo today and will try that with the 7.5meter and see what happens.

I'm trying to figure out if the oppo is better than the d2, however. the d2 build quality is suspect, but i love the image.

I may end up moving the dvd player closer to the h31 in the long haul, but I would prefer not to.

-r

Wierd because yesterday I used my 25' DVD-D cable to the Bravo D2 and it worked perfectly. I was ready to jump thru the resolutions many times to see if your tip worked but I didn't have to. Custom resolution looked clean and sharp, very natural colors also. PJ confirmed 854X480 60Hz Mode 84. Since this cable was a little intermitent Id say anyone thinking of the Bravo D2 just get a high quality cable and you should be good to go. You can copy my custom resolution setup. It didn't take me long to figure out the best numbers also.

guitarman

06-23-05, 03:33 PM

"Guitarman,
Regarding the numbers you posted and the "It if works you got a free ISF tunup", wouldn't those numbers be dependant upon other factors as well? As in, the colours or lightness of your walls, your screen, etc? Wouldn't a high-gain screen give different numbers than a gray one? What about having black walls as opposed to cream-coloured walls? The amount of washing out from reflected light would affect it all, would it not? Or am I missing something here? I've always been curious, so I figured I had better ask!"

The tuning was done with a meter that faces the projector so outside factors won't effect it. Electonics could be different but it's still worth a shot. Especially since we starting at the front of the video chain by using the service area. Nobody's tried them yet? :)

krasmuzik

06-23-05, 03:43 PM

guitarman

You are misleading people by posting ISF settings . I can assure you my calibration settings were entirely different!

On digital projectors the primary deviation from ISF D65 setting is the lamp - and everyone's lamp is different - and wildy different when new. Lamps need to roll over triple digits so you can get a stable calibration. I have measured lots of SP4805's - and not one would have had the same settings - and that was using a consistent DVI source and a consistent projector measurement technique.

The room, source, and screen have much less impact than one would think. The factory calibrations tweaked for contrast and the lamps are the primary reason for ISF deviations. cine4home.de has a very good research analysis on these deviations. Of course when you are paying for an ISF these last few% differences are what you are paying for - but the reality is an ISF spends most of their time dealing with bad factory presets and lamp variances.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=de_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.cine4home.de%2fknowhow%2fProjoTuning% 2fEinleitung.htm

Of course if Optoma is tweaking for contrast at the factory - that would explain why it reads 7500K with a blown out gamma curve. I still took a big hit calibrating the film gamma#1, color temp#1. It would not hurt them to add a perfect ISF preset like NEC does - even if it does tune down the numbers - its not like they are going to use those numbers for marketing anyways. They will still continue to leave the ISF preset marketing to Infocus I am sure - since it lowers the brightness/contrast numbers the projector is capable of.

guitarman

06-23-05, 03:48 PM

Numerikflip

06-23-05, 04:16 PM

It's the players and projectors. Here's a run down from what I've seen.

Bravo D1 will work with my 30' DVI cable with the H31, HT1000 and H79.
Bravo D2 won't work with this cable with the H31 and HT1000 but will work with the H79.

Toshiba 5970 will work with this cable with all the machines.

Uggh I think I tried the Oppo with this cable and the H31 and it was a no go. I'm not sure though better ask around. Anybody using an Oppo with a 30' DVI cable to the H31 and getting no problems?

If need be I can always get another DVD player but the Oppo was tops on my list. I know I should ask this question in the DVD forum but how would the 5970 with the H31 and a 30' DVI cable do? If anyone out there would are to recommend me a DVD player for this set-up your input is greatly appreciated. Also feedback on the Oppo with the 30' DVI cable and H31 is appreciated.

guitarman

06-23-05, 04:25 PM

The Tosh works great, it's a powerfull signal sender, had no pixel crop, no y/c delay trouble, image looks clean and smooth.

rbastedo

06-23-05, 04:32 PM

I just tried loading a different OS and still couldn't get DVI-D.

For those interested I got Knoppix & put it on a CD & booted from it.
Loading to ramdisk makes it nice & fast too.

I get a display on DVI-A on the H31 still but "no signal" on DVI-D.
Just like in Win XP.

It's like my H31 has virtually no EDID at all. :(

Fokinel

06-23-05, 05:47 PM

Well... I ordered an H31 today - should be here in 4 biz days. The room it's moving into is totally empty at present, but with a bit of luck, once we finish moving into the new place, I'll be here asking a bazillion newbie questions til I get it working properly. I'll try the DVI from PC thing (95% of my movies are on HDD), but worst-case is running analog through DSM-320 (why doesn't it have an HDI output?). Thanks for all the information in the very long thread!

jwtseng

06-23-05, 08:15 PM

Here's an interesting question that I humbly present to you people to ponder...

How does the H31 compare with the Infocus 7210??? I know there is a difference in native resolution, but in the real world what will I notice in terms of brightness or sharpness, etc? BTW, I will be projecting on a 133" diagonal screen with a Draper M2500 surface.

I'm curious because there is obviously a BIG difference in cost here. What do you guys think?

krasmuzik

06-23-05, 08:41 PM

jwtseng

find my shootout thread from last summer - it had the H30 against the SP7205.

Yes there will be a tremendous difference in brightness/sharpness - at least 2-3x. Up to you to decide if that merits way more than 2-3x the price!

The Infocus would not need the high gain screen unless you are going for TV rather than movie brightness. I would not use such a large screen with a 480P machine unless you have a huge room and can sit 19' back.

CMRA

06-23-05, 09:23 PM

jwtseng

06-23-05, 09:37 PM

Haha....hey krasmuzik and CMRA....pretty much the response I expected to get. I'll definitely check out the shootout thread, though....sounds interesting. I'm really asking this question for the benefit of a friend who is thinking about taking the plunge into FP. He wants a big screen (and of course, only one as big as mine is good enough as far as keeping up with the Joneses), but he doesn't understand why the H31 won't do...or won't do as well as a higher res and brighter projector like the 7210. Whether it's worth the extra money, I'll leave to him, I guess.

I sort of got him interested in FP, so I don't want him to be disappointed (and I'm trying to tell him that he will be disappointed with the H31 at 133"). I'll have to break it to him easy. :p

CMRA

06-23-05, 10:06 PM

The Tosh works great, it's a powerfull signal sender, had no pixel crop, no y/c delay trouble, image looks clean and smooth.

I can't speak for cables longer than 10 feet, but the Tosh is exactly what Tom says it is. I have tried four other DVD players on my H31 and keep coming back to it. The remote gives everyone fits, however.

fleaman

06-23-05, 10:09 PM

We know it's a gamble but it's still worth a shot. If they like what they see and colors look more natural they'll be better off.

Here's the post from the momo thread.

"Hey, just messing around this morning with D2/H31 optoma. I got a read back of 854X480 - 60hz - Mode84 with these settings. Pixel crop zero, Overscan zero.

Hor Freq 47900, Vertical Freq 5994
Vid width 0854, Video height 0480
Hsync 1312 PreHsync 0016
Hsactive 0096 PostHsync 0176
Vstotal 0800 Prevsyn 0001
Vs active 0003 Postvsync 0028
Hspolarity0001 Vsynpolarity 0001
"

I'll try out those #'s if I get a chance tonight. I noticed that other than the resolution (854x480) the only other #'s you changed from the Bravo defaults (also the same as my Momitsu) was the Horz and Vert frequency's....all those other settings are the same as the default settings which were set up for 1024 x 768 (OTB custom setting default), which I wouldn’t normally think would be ideal for a 854x480 resolution...but hey, whatta I know! It's certainly worth a try since you're having luck with it.

Fleaman

baconman

06-24-05, 01:58 AM

where do you even change those numbers you guys are talking about?
thanks.
-r

fleaman

06-24-05, 02:12 AM

where do you even change those numbers you guys are talking about?
thanks.
-r

These are custom resolution settings for DVD players that have this ability, in this case, my Momitsu and Guitarman's Bravo D2. These are settings in the dvd player, NOT the H31 (you can't change the resolution of the H31!).

Did you have a dvd player that has this ability? I only know of the Bravo and Momitsu that can do this....maybe the Oppo too from what I hear.

Fleaman

fleaman

06-24-05, 04:41 AM

Ok, I tried Guitarman's custom DVI (DVD player) settings on my Momitsu V880DX dvd player:

> H31 read as 854x480 @ 60hz, mode 84
> No tearing (although, I managed no-tearing before w/some other custom settings)
> Pic looked ok and stable, couldn't tell if it was any sharper over the stock 480p DVI out.
> BUT, I still get pixels cropped at this setting. About 4 pixels each side and up to 16 pixels top and bottom! Yikes! Pic is noticeably smaller than the stock 480p dvi setting.

Now, here is the interesting thing regarding the cropped pixels> They are only cropped while an anamorphic film (dvd) is playing. In the Momitsu set-up menu, when the dvd is stopped (and the Momitsu display screen is shown) or when the dvd has a menu that fills out the 16:9 screen (like the menu on a superbit disc the 5th element), then NO pixels are cropped! Once I hit play and anamorphic content is playing (and in this case, 5th Element superbit), I lose pixels noted above compared to the stock 480p dvi settings (which is 720x480 according to what the H31 reads).

??

Guitarman: I still have a funny feeling that your D2 is not that much different than my Momitsu inside. At the very least, they might have the same OS and it's known that they use the same main chips, and have the exact menus and default custom settings (very strange!). I would be surprised if you really don't have cropped pixels like me at these custom settings.

What you should do is set back to your stock factory D2 480p setting (720 width) and make sure all your pixels line up at the very edge of all your black screen borders. You could use the menu on the 5th Element superbit disc as a guide....it should fill out the whole 16:9 box in 16:9 mode (projector and dvd player). Then, play the disc and of course you get black bars top/bottom as normal...measure the thickness of those bars with a ruler. The sides would of course stay the same...right at your black screen border.

Now, change to your custom dvi 854 setting, H31 will read as 854x480, dvd player set up menu will be fine, superbit menu will be fine, but once you start to play the 5Th Element, I bet you'll see and be able to measure your cropped pixels all the way around.

I can only think this might have something to do with the anamorphic material, since when my H31 read it as 854, nothing was cropped until the film played, which is anamorphic compared to the menus (right?). I tried your same #'s but changed the width to 852, 848,....all the same, cropped pixels all the way around. But, once I put in 720, NOTHING was cropped! This was WITH all your other custom settings exactly the same except for the Width (720x480 w/custom settings, not the default 720x480 setting).

I know you posted a screen shot of a pixel crop shot that showed no pixels were cropped...but I think that might be because it wasn't an anamorphic picture. Play an anamorphic disc and measure as I mentioned above and see what you get.

So, for now, I'm back again to the stock 480p (@ 720) default dvi setting. It looks just as good as the custom settings, even the 720 non-cropped setting. But, I'm guessing the default 480p setting probably has better optimized #'s than these custom settings that we are pulling out from the air.

Again, if anyone has a dvd player custom 854 setting they would like to share (that works w/o problems), then please do.

Thanks Guitarman for giving up some #'s for us to try, but at least for me, they just didn't work.

Another stupid guess (someone PLEASE correct me :D ): Even though my H31 reads my stock 480p dvi setting as 720x480, when anamorphic content is playing, isn't the H31 stretching those pixels to 854x480? So that while the H31 reads it as 720x480, it really is pixel matching to 854x480 panel before it shoots out the picture?
Maybe the HTPC guys do the anamorphic conversion within the PC and then send out the already stretched content to the projector @ 854x480, hence the 1:1 pixel map and no need for the projector to convert anamorphic content?
But on the stand alone dvd players with dvi, we can’t do that?
As you can probably tell, I know nothing about HTPC's, so someone either tell me I'm an idiot or a genius!

Fleaman

mystery

06-24-05, 07:44 AM

Tom has started a new thread for the new H27 from Optoma. Someone just posted on that thread that his H27 works from an HTPC using DVI-D and a resolution of 1280 x 720p.

I think we'll need to hear from more H27 owners that can digitally sync with an HTPC before we can conclude that it's not prone to the same problems as the H31.

Sounds promising so far though doesn't it? At least for H27 owners. If it proves to be stable then perhaps Optoma could better nail down why the H31 lacks consistency here.

Wayne

EHHoffman

06-24-05, 10:14 AM

Another stupid guess (someone PLEASE correct me :D ): Even though my H31 reads my stock 480p dvi setting as 720x480, when anamorphic content is playing, isn't the H31 stretching those pixels to 854x480? So that while the H31 reads it as 720x480, it really is pixel matching to 854x480 panel before it shoots out the picture?

Assuming you have your DVD player set to 16:9 mode, then yes, this is what is happening with anamorphic content.

Maybe the HTPC guys do the anamorphic conversion within the PC and then send out the already stretched content to the projector @ 854x480, hence the 1:1 pixel map and no need for the projector to convert anamorphic content?

Right again. The idea is that scaling on a PC will can be better then what most stand alone players implement. IMO, this has more relevance with HD source material then with DVD where you can take advantage of the display's entire array of pixels with actual source content. Personally, I'd like to use a HTPC to scale all my material so that I can use an anamorphic lense and make a constant height setup with a 2.35:1 screen.

--Eric

Loner

06-24-05, 10:37 AM

The tuning was done with a meter that faces the projector so outside factors won't effect it. Electonics could be different but it's still worth a shot. Especially since we starting at the front of the video chain by using the service area. Nobody's tried them yet? :)

Interesting... that way at least we know that the light coming onto the screen is as close to perfect as possible. Other room factors we will then have to take into account, maybe reducing light reflections off the side walls and stuff, but at least the source itself is good. Cool... I would try it if I could, but I don't have one yet! Should I get one, I will certainly be trying it out! I appreciate you posting the numbers, even without an H31 at present!

berserker37

06-24-05, 12:07 PM

Just thought I'd chime in here with some thanks, and also a few questions.

First of all, thanks in general for all the great info on projectors in general, and the H31 in particular. I went with this over the Infocus 4805 for two reasons: 1, I don't plan on jumping into the HTPC game anytime soon. And, 2, the quieter fan. I've had the projector ceiling mounted for a few weeks, but now that everything's painted (very dark gray), carpeting is in, sound system is set up (Denon receiver with Ascend speakers, 7.1 surround), and theater seats are in (Coasters), I've been able to finally settle down and watch some movies. So far I am blown away! Bought it from Visual Apex with the free 100" screen, and I just can't believe how much bang for the buck you get with this baby. I eventually plan to get a fixed screen (or maybe treat the wall), and possibly a masking system, but that's at least 6 months to a year away. In the next 6 months I hope to get an upconverting DVD player, and get into the HD game, but I'm awfully happy and satisfied right now. When I get a chance I will try to post some pics, I'm very pleased with how the room turned out.

Anyway, onto my questions. I've skimmed a lot of posts regarding calibrating the projector, and I've printed out some of that information, but I was hoping someone could give me some quick and easy starting points, or a reference to where I should look. I know guitarman has done a lot of work in that area, and I'm guessing there are some pretty good baselines to start from. I've got Digital Video Essentials and Avia, so I'll be using those. But what settings should I start with, in regards to the things like Gamma level and the other basic settings (things like Film, Cinema, Video, Dynamic, etc.). For reference I'm using a Panasonic DV-963A DVD player via component, and a DirecTivo via S-Video. Any advice about basic settings would be much appreciated.

Arty13

06-24-05, 01:16 PM

Hey everybody :D, long time no talk.. been busy... just skimmed through like the last 10 pages or so... but anyway... i read about the phoenix, and this is what it says for me... i'll attach it as a dat file, which it reads... maybe this will help some of you :D
also jason was saying that i do not have it pixel mapped, i agree that i dont have "True" 1:1 pixel mapping, just because my graphics card restricts me to get a 854x480 resolution, because the horizontal clock/freq needs to be a multiple of 8 with ATI, but the 848(on the left) are 1:1 pixel mapped, i have pictures in my gallery i believe with closeups, and the last 6 pixels on the right are not mapped, so yeah... but anyway, someone check out my EDID settings... and let me know whats going on :D
ohh yeah... also... Optoma Called me earlier this week and asked how i like the H31, I said i just loved it... should of told him i got my htpc working too :D maybe he would of wanted to talk longer... but ohh well :D

Arty

had to zip it, cause it was invalid format otherwise...
also i ran moninfo, another EDID program and this is what it had to say...

Monitor
Windows description......... Plug and Play Monitor
Manufacturer description.... Optoma H31
Manufacturer................ OTM
————————————————————————————
Plug and Play ID............ OTM3348
Serial number............... ÿ
EDID data source............ I2C bus (real-time)
————————————————————————————
Manufacture date............ 2004, ISO week 49
EDID revision............... 1.3
Display type and signal..... Digital
Sync input support.......... n/a
Screen size................. n/a
Power management............ n/a

Color characteristics
Display gamma............... 2.20
Red chromaticity............ Rx 0.642 - Ry 0.350
Green chromaticity.......... Gx 0.306 - Gy 0.652
Blue chromaticity........... Bx 0.136 - By 0.073
White point (default)....... Wx 0.296 - Wy 0.314

Timing characteristics
VESA GTF support............ Not supported
Horizontal scan range....... 16-69kHz
Vertical scan range......... 43-85Hz
Video bandwidth............. 170MHz
Extension blocks............ 1
Timing recommendation #1.... 848x480 at 60Hz
Modeline................ "848x480" 33.750 848 864 976 1088 480 486 494 517 -hsync -vsync
Timing recommendation #2.... 720x480 at 60Hz
Modeline................ "720x480" 27.000 720 736 798 858 480 489 495 525 -hsync -vsync
Timing recommendation #3.... 720x576 at 50Hz
Modeline................ "720x576" 27.000 720 732 796 864 576 581 586 625 -hsync -vsync
Timing recommendation #4.... 1280x720 at 60Hz
Modeline................ "1280x720" 74.250 1280 1390 1430 1650 720 725 730 750 +hsync +vsync
Timing recommendation #5.... 1920x540 at 60Hz
Modeline................ "1920x540" 74.170 1920 2008 2052 2200 540 542 547 562 +hsync +vsync

Standard timings supported
640 x 480 at 60Hz - IBM VGA
640 x 480 at 72Hz - VESA
640 x 480 at 75Hz - VESA
640 x 480 at 85Hz - VESA
720 x 400 at 70Hz - IBM VGA
720 x 405 at 85Hz - VESA
720 x 480 at 60Hz - OTM
720 x 576 at 50Hz - OTM
800 x 600 at 56Hz - VESA
800 x 600 at 60Hz - VESA
800 x 600 at 72Hz - VESA
800 x 600 at 75Hz - VESA
800 x 600 at 85Hz - VESA
848 x 480 at 60Hz - OTM
1024 x 768 at 43Hz - IBM 8514a
1024 x 768 at 60Hz - VESA
1024 x 768 at 70Hz - VESA
1024 x 768 at 75Hz - VESA
1024 x 768 at 85Hz - VESA
1280 x 720 at 60Hz - OTM
1280 x 1024 at 60Hz - VESA
1920 x 540 at 60Hz - OTM

Raw EDID base
00: 00 FF FF FF FF FF FF 00 3E 8D 48 33 89 04 00 00
10: 31 0E 01 03 80 00 00 78 0A 64 FE A4 59 4E A7 22
20: 12 4B 50 AF DE 00 31 59 3B D9 45 59 61 59 81 80
30: 01 01 01 01 01 01 2F 0D 50 F0 30 E0 25 10 10 70
40: 68 00 00 00 00 00 00 18 00 00 00 FF 00 4F 38 31
50: 47 34 34 39 41 31 31 36 31 0A 00 00 00 FC 00 4F
60: 70 74 6F 6D 61 20 48 33 31 0A 20 20 00 00 00 FD
70: 00 2B 55 10 45 11 00 0A 20 20 20 20 20 20 01 9D

Raw EDID extension (CEA-861)
00: 02 03 0C 00 47 02 03 11 12 05 84 00 8C 0A D0 8A
10: 20 E0 2D 10 10 3E 96 00 00 00 00 00 00 18 8C 0A
20: D0 90 20 40 31 20 0C 40 55 00 00 00 00 00 00 18
30: 01 1D 00 72 51 D0 1E 20 6E 28 55 00 00 00 00 00
40: 00 1E F9 1C 80 18 71 1C 16 20 58 2C 25 00 00 00
50: 00 00 00 1E 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 00 00 FF 00 00
60: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 FF 00 00 00 00 00 FF
70: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 43

Display adapter
Adapter description......... RADEON 9600 SERIES
Adapter device ID........... 0x41501002
Display settings............ 854x480, 32bpp

User/computer information
Registered user name........ Arthur
Registered organization..... King Arthur's Production
Network user name........... Art
Network computer name....... ART-CLEAR
Windows version ............ Windows XP
Windows build .............. 5.01.2600 Service Pack 2
Installation date .......... 6/16/2005 12:00:00 PM

fleaman

06-24-05, 01:57 PM

Quote:
(Originally Posted by fleaman)
Another stupid guess (someone PLEASE correct me ): Even though my H31 reads my stock 480p dvi setting as 720x480, when anamorphic content is playing, isn't the H31 stretching those pixels to 854x480? So that while the H31 reads it as 720x480, it really is pixel matching to 854x480 panel before it shoots out the picture?

Assuming you have your DVD player set to 16:9 mode, then yes, this is what is happening with anamorphic content.

Quote:
(Originally Posted by fleaman)
Maybe the HTPC guys do the anamorphic conversion within the PC and then send out the already stretched content to the projector @ 854x480, hence the 1:1 pixel map and no need for the projector to convert anamorphic content?

Right again. The idea is that scaling on a PC will can be better then what most stand alone players implement. IMO, this has more relevance with HD source material then with DVD where you can take advantage of the display's entire array of pixels with actual source content. Personally, I'd like to use a HTPC to scale all my material so that I can use an anamorphic lense and make a constant height setup with a 2.35:1 screen.

--Eric

Ah HA!

So, for us guys with DVD DVI players that have custom resolution capabilities, this is the reason my 854x480 custom resolutions are getting cropped on anamorphic material? Basically, I'm wasting my time trying to get 854x480 to work w/o cropping on my dvd player (with anamorphic dvd's)? And, the stock default 480p (720x480) dvi setting (that my H31 reads as 720x480) IS actually 1:1 pixel mapped when I'm playing Anamorphic material?

Wow.

If this is all true, I can't believe I've wasted time trying to get the custom resolutions to work. And, it's one of the reasons I went with the Momitsu dvd player, 'cos it could do custom resolutions! Duh!

The only thing I don't understand is exactly how the HTPC guys do it. The H31 only has a 16:9 and 4:3 setting, so to use the full panel they have to use 16:9, but then the H31 would stretch the image they send it, wouldn't it? So I'm still confused how sending a 854 resolution to the H31 (or 4805) when in 16:9 mode, the H31 won't still screw up the image by stretching...or in my case, cropping the image? Maybe the 4805 has another setting choice, like " full panel, no stretch " mode? Maybe that is what the H31 is lacking for the HTPC guys?
(Sorry, couldn't help making more stupid guesses :eek: )

Well, someone please confirm my conclusions, 'cos I want to get on with life :D

Fleaman

billymac

06-24-05, 02:07 PM

the way i understand it, when you're using 848x480 with a htpc you are pixel mapped, just not 1:1. you're not using a couple/few rows of pixels is all. 1:1 means you're utilizing the full capability of the panel.

mystery

06-24-05, 04:56 PM

berserker,

Welcome to the thread and the H31 club! It's turned out to be a very nice projector when used with a DVD player.

Probably AVIA is the best place to start as it's apparently easier to navigate though. I would start with Film mode and tweak from there with minimal gamma for now. You could always try PC mode etc...

Have fun!

Wayne

guitarman

06-24-05, 05:03 PM

fleaman

06-24-05, 05:34 PM

"Guitarman: I still have a funny feeling that your D2 is not that much different than my Momitsu inside."

So when you run Avia'a overscan and pixel crop patterns you don't see zero pixel crop and zero overscan? I do

The question is if Avia's overscan/pixel crop pattern is Anamorphic or not?

Remember, I don't see the pixel crop when non-Anamorphic material (like the menu in the Superbit 5th element, etc.) is projected...it fills out the entire 16:9 panel with no pixel crop.

Once the Anamorphic 5th Element film starts playing....pixel cropping happens.

Fleaman

guitarman

06-24-05, 05:54 PM

Hmmm, I never saw the need to expand the picture when viewing all types of movies but I'll take a closer look sometime.

fleaman

06-24-05, 06:25 PM

Hmmm, I never saw the need to expand the picture when viewing all types of movies but I'll take a closer look sometime.

What do you normally have your dvd player set at? I'm not sure if you are always running 854 custom or just use the 720x480 default?

I took a look at that Avia overscan pattern you used (just on my tv, it's daytime!) and noticed there was no notation in the menu as to whether it was a widescreen/anamorphic enhanced pattern or not. There was a separate menu for WSE (widescreen enhanced), but that particular pattern wasn't in it.

But, if you try my test as noted a few posts up and switch between the default 720x480 and your custom 854 settings, it should be clear as day the difference.

Fleaman

fleaman

06-24-05, 10:11 PM

A little present from me to fellow H31 owners (and anyone else reading of course!):

Deepdiscountdvd.com is having another one of their 20% off (anything released) sales...but it ends tomorrow (12am tonight?). I actually think it's good thru tomorrow.

You have to enter PRICESEARCH into the promotional code box to get the 20% off everything.

I just placed a $300 order (that was after the discount!).

Remember, they only have these 20% off sales like 2 times a year...was something like 6 months ago the last time it happened.

Happy hunting.

Fleaman

guitarman

06-25-05, 02:44 AM

What do you normally have your dvd player set at? I'm not sure if you are always running 854 custom or just use the 720x480 default?

I took a look at that Avia overscan pattern you used (just on my tv, it's daytime!) and noticed there was no notation in the menu as to whether it was a widescreen/anamorphic enhanced pattern or not. There was a separate menu for WSE (widescreen enhanced), but that particular pattern wasn't in it.

But, if you try my test as noted a few posts up and switch between the default 720x480 and your custom 854 settings, it should be clear as day the difference.

Fleaman

Bravo DVD is set with the custom setting res. To get a full screen for 16.9 I'll set the Bravo to 4.3 to fill the image. If you set the player to 16.9 you'll still get zero pixel crop or overscan, either way you'll see zero pixel crop zero overscan.

fleaman

06-25-05, 03:17 AM

Bravo DVD is set with the custom setting res. To get a full screen for 16.9 I'll set the Bravo to 4.3 to fill the image. If you set the player to 16.9 you'll still get zero pixel crop or overscan, either way you'll see zero pixel crop zero overscan.

As I mentioned, I see zero pixel crop with custom 854 resolution until anamorphic material starts to play, that's when the pixel crop happens. Both dvd and H31 set to 16:9 (as should be).

Again, try looking at the Menu of the 5th Element superbit dvd, it will fill out the full 16:9 panel. Then play the movie @ 720x480 default...no pixel cropping. Measure the thickness of your top/bottom black bars with a ruler. The sides should be right at your black screen border as normal.

Then try your 854 custom resolution. Again, the Menu will be fine (no pixel cropping anywhere). But once you play the anamorphic material, you will immediately see your LH/RH screen boarders shrink by about 4 pixels each side and your top/bottom black bars also be measurably bigger (about 16 pixels lost top and bottom = 32+ pixels!).

When I use the 720 width with all your other custom dvi settings the same, I get zero pixel cropping of the anamorphic image.

Try it.

Fleaman

guitarman

06-25-05, 03:28 AM

I haven't got around to testing, but even if you're losing a couple of pixel lines wouldn't it still be 1.1? Or no scaling being done by the projector which is what you're looking for.

CMRA

06-25-05, 10:39 AM

What happened to the HTPC puzzle?

Anyway, good news to report on that front. Played 'SharkTale' (all the way through) and only had a handful of tears. They were minor and hardly noticed (but still there).
Film transfers were not as favorable. Tearing was much more frequent there. I hugely suspect it has something to do with 24fps and the 3:2 pulldown. The Optoma is looking for flags(signals) the codec isn't sending. That's my best guess for now. I'm anxious to hear what Optoma reports back.

LENNY 2112

06-25-05, 01:36 PM

Do you HTPC guys think a simple firmware update can fix all this?

fleaman

06-25-05, 01:43 PM

I haven't got around to testing, but even if you're losing a couple of pixel lines wouldn't it still be 1.1? Or no scaling being done by the projector which is what you're looking for.

???

My rough guess of pixels lost (unused):

4 pixels each side x 480 lines = 3,840 pixels
16 pixels top and bottom x 854 lines = 27,328 pixels

Total unused cropped pixels with 854 resolution = 31,168 pixels gone!

Would you want to watch movies with this many pixels unused?

As for 1:1 > I didn't actually check to see if the actual picture was being cropped or if it was being reduced in size, either way, I can't see how that would be 1:1 pixel mapping to me. Once I switched back to 720x480, the pic was noticeably much larger...like I got my projector back! And, the sharpness was about the same.

Fleaman

CMRA

06-25-05, 01:58 PM

Do you HTPC guys think a simple firmware update can fix all this?

...but, I'm guessing. Other PJs don't suffer from this anomaly, so a fix is doable.

guitarman

06-25-05, 02:59 PM

???

My rough guess of pixels lost (unused):

4 pixels each side x 480 lines = 3,840 pixels
16 pixels top and bottom x 854 lines = 27,328 pixels

Total unused cropped pixels with 854 resolution = 31,168 pixels gone!

Would you want to watch movies with this many pixels unused?

As for 1:1 > I didn't actually check to see if the actual picture was being cropped or if it was being reduced in size, either way, I can't see how that would be 1:1 pixel mapping to me. Once I switched back to 720x480, the pic was noticeably much larger...like I got my projector back! And, the sharpness was about the same.

Fleaman

Goodmorning,
Bravo D2 was not syncing well today 30'cable. Once it worked I checked the custom res, right intro there's no lost image, once the movie plays about 4pixels on the sides were cropped in.

I tried the H27 and no go with the Bravo same cable. Tosh worked fine but I had to use 1024X768 to get zero overscan and zero pixel crop. Curious the border area didn't change size from the movie intro to anamorphic. But this is another projector more testing needed.

Jason figured it out already it's the 854X480 chip. You can't match it to 854 that's why he ended up going 848. But 848 can still pixel be a match, sorta :)

Find the cleanist 1.1 (or squared clean pixel boxes) and just zoom the image out. The sharpness advantage out weighs any small loss in picture video to me. That's if there really is picture loss. I haven't tested scenes yet.

Greg Rogers WSR info in clean pixel matching.

."A spatially “pixel perfect” image occurs when each pixel from a source is precisely mapped to a single projector pixel without scaling. In that case there is not a single pixel of overscan or underscan. (that part we can't get with the 854chip)

"The single pixel lines within a high frequency multiburst pattern are precisely
rendered as single pixel lines with full amplitude."

I just look at a 100ire pattern but there's got to be a better pattern to know the single lines are at full amplitude. Greg usues an Accupel generater an expensive piece of equipment. We need to find out a buget method to key in on pixel clearity. :)

fleaman

06-25-05, 04:23 PM

Jason figured it out already it's the 854X480 chip. You can't match it to 854 that's why he ended up going 848. But 848 can still pixel be a match, sorta :)

Find the cleanist 1.1 (or squared clean pixel boxes) and just zoom the image out. The sharpness advantage out weighs any small loss in picture video to me. That's if there really is picture loss. I haven't tested scenes yet.

Nope.

From my earlier post I said:

I can only think this might have something to do with the anamorphic material, since when my H31 read it as 854, nothing was cropped until the film played, which is anamorphic compared to the menus (right?). I tried your same #'s but changed the width to 852, 848,....all the same, cropped pixels all the way around. But, once I put in 720, NOTHING was cropped! This was WITH all your other custom settings exactly the same except for the Width (720x480 w/custom settings, not the default 720x480 setting).

I already tried 852 and 848, the pixel cropping was still extreme. Yeah, 'Only' 4 pixels each side, but about 16 pixels from the top AND bottom were also gone--that’s 32 vertical pixels gone!
(it might have actually been 18 pixels lost top/bottom, but I'm underestimating here).

Guitarman, measure the difference in your black bars between your 854 custom dvd and the default 720x480 dvi and you will see what I mean.

I'm still not sure if this is a issue with trying to do 854 on a dvd player with dvi + anamorphic not being compatible. Meaning, only the HTPC guys can correctly do 854 to the projector. Or, if this is issue with the H31 specifically.

So far one poster said I was correct about HTPC handling anamorphic to 854 dvi correctly. The only probably with that is it doesn't make sense (to me) how to stop the H31 from un-squeezing an already un-squeezed 854 image from an HTPC (since the 16:9 setting on the H31 would try to un-squeeze the image being sent to it).

I'm wondering if anyone in the 4805 thread has successfully done a custom 854x480 on a dvi DVD player (Momitsu, Oppo, Bravo) w/o cropping??

Fleaman

guitarman

06-25-05, 04:36 PM

They're probably in the same boat. I had high hopes for the H27 because it has 4.3, 16.9 & 1.1. But 1.1 wasn't available with DVI, which is odd. Pretty sure I saw it when I was running analog. I'll have to check with Wing on that but that's another PJ. :)

I must say though setting the Tosh to 1024X768 seemed odd but the picture was amazingly clean and sharp, looks like what we're looking for, crisp pixel lines. I'm not home to test but have you checked that even with the image being cropped down that you're losing outer image area?

guitarman

06-25-05, 04:40 PM

"But, once I put in 720, NOTHING was cropped!"

The projector was scaling it, like when using an analog player.

fleaman

06-25-05, 05:30 PM

I've been searching through the 4805 thread to see if anyone has a dvd dvi player with custom 854 working...and a few claim to...or at least, not noting any problems.

What I did find interesting from my search is that the 4805 has a 'Native' move, which is different from the 16:9 mode. It seems that when they do the 854 pixel map, they use the Native mode, not the 16:9 mode.

The H31 has no Native mode option...only 16:9 or 4:3.

BUT, I just remembered that it has a 'Letterbox" mode...maybe that might work the same as the 4805's Native. Hmmmm, I hadn't tried that....

Fleaman

guitarman

06-25-05, 05:41 PM

The H77 & H79 have native and 16.9, 16.9 adds about 2% overscan. But with the H31 in 16.9 using DVI I would get zero overscan with the Avia pattern. Search for how to tell if you're pixel matched even if you're missing pixels. :D

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31customset3.jpg

fleaman

06-25-05, 05:50 PM

But with the H31 in 16.9 using DVI I would get zero overscan with the Avia pattern.

Again Guitarman, that pattern is probably not anamorphic! Even you noticed the pixel lost once anamorphic material was played!

Fleaman

guitarman

06-25-05, 05:59 PM

The cropping down is somthing else or underscan. If 16.9 was producing overscan we would see it. I saw over 5% overscan with the Tosh at 480p with the H27 in 16.9, that's why I wondered why the 1.1 aspect wasn't available. Then again the Tosh with the h31 will show no overscan. Confused yet :)

Re Avia, Avia is a 4.3 disc. You can still use the overscan pattern though that's why we set it to 4.3 so it will stretch out to fill a 1.85 16.9 image. Our problem is the dislays causing underscan with custom resolutions. I don't think we'll be getting around the underscan. I'd say find the res that shows clean pixel boxes and zoom the image. For sure the Tosh with the H27 at 1024X768 look incredibly clean. I gotta check that out some more.

fleaman

06-25-05, 06:23 PM

Well, I got all excited about the Letterbox mode maybe working, I just tried it....

....and, no luck. The letterbox button has no effect at all....seems to only effect true letterbox material and since I was playing anamorphic, it probably wouldn't allow me to use it.

So, back to square 1, almost.

I say almost because I'm intrigued now that the 4805 has a native mode (besides the 16:9 mode). The H31 doesn't have this and I think maybe this is the problem when trying to do 854x480 with it.

I think the H31 in 16:9 mode is looking for anamorphic and when I send it the custom 854x480 or 848 (which I think is not anamorphic???), the H31 doesn't know to just pixel map it direct to the 854x480 panel. Instead, the H31 tries to unsqweeze the image, and the result in this case is some pretty major pixel cropping.

10 minutes later:
I just did a little test that might confirm this: I found an image on 5th Element that had a steady line in a scene right at the bottom of the projected image. I played and paused at that image on both the default 720x480 dvi setting and the custom 854x480 setting (which I loose at least 16 to 18 pixels at the bottom of the screen). And guess what? In the 854 mode the H31 is NOT cropping the actual anamorphic image, that line is there in both 854 and 720 modes.
So, it seems to be squeezing (or un-squeezing?) the image into a reduced part of the 854x480 panel (about 846x446). So aspect ratio is changed a little bit, but too small to notice. This might also explain why a larger percent is lost vertically (32+ pixels from only 480 lines) than width wise (only about 8 pixels from 854 lines). That says to me the aspect ratio was changed, especially since the actual anamorphic image from a scene in 5th Element showed no cropping of the Image , so the aspect ratio must of changed.
The main problem remains: Loss of way too many pixels.

I'm starting to think that the H31 needed a 'Native' mode in the 1st place, the mode that wouldn't alter the dvi image being sent to it.

Whatta you guys think? Am I one to something here?

Fleaman

Steve Schauer

06-25-05, 06:34 PM

fleaman

06-25-05, 06:37 PM

Just a quick comparison on how the aspect ratio was changed using percentages...

854x480 vs. 846x446>

854 to 846: About 1% difference.

480 to 446: About 7% difference.

Fleaman

fleaman

06-25-05, 06:49 PM

fleaman,

aren't you just seeing letterboxing from the 1.85:1 aspect ratio? 854x480 is 1.78:1, which matches HDTV aspect ratios, but many movies are 1.85:1 AR. 854x460 is 1.85:1. That's 20 black pixels.

I'm not sure what you are saying. All we are trying to do is pixel map with 854x480...and I would assume we wouldn't have to change that resolution for every different aspect ratio movie that we watch!

Correct?

Now, I'm not talking about the difference in a 1.78 to 1.85 movie. This is the same movie (5th Element in this case) in which the image size is changed from the default 720x480 dvi setting to the 854 (or 848, etc.) setting. This should not happen. It doesn't happen with the HTPC guys on the 4805 forum. This not a discussion about black bar differences between different aspect ratio movies.

BTW, the 5th Element is 2.35! Way more than 20 pixels difference from a 1.78 movie!

Fleaman

guitarman

06-25-05, 06:52 PM

I don't think we'll be getting 854X480 out of the image. I'm trying make sure we at least get a clean pixel match.

I posted a thread about how to tell you have a clean pixel match. Answers s/b interesting.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=553264

Steve Schauer

06-25-05, 06:56 PM

guitarman

06-25-05, 07:04 PM

fleaman

06-25-05, 07:07 PM

Well that's the thing. If it's 2.35:1 you're not going to see 480 vertical pixels light up. More like 364. The only way you should see all 480 is if it's a 1.78:1 source, like HDTV.

Again, I know this.

This isn't about Black bars, etc.

This is about 1:1 pixel mapping, black bars and all.

As you can see from my posts, and especially my recent post, the aspect ratio (with the Same Movie!) is slightly changed between 854, 848 custom and the 720x480 defaults.

This is not suppose to happen with 1:1 pixel mapping. It doesn't happen with the 4805's that are successfully 1:1 pixel mapped to and 848x480 resolution and it shouldn't happen with the H31. Something is wrong.

Again! > Nothing to do with aspect ratio differences between different movies!

Fleaman

fleaman

06-25-05, 07:10 PM

We're seeing some lost pixels on the sides. I'm trying to find a way we can at least see we're getting full contrast around the pixel boxes. We may be losing pixels on the sides but still may be at a point where the PJ isn't doing and scaling and basically still showing precise pixel matching.

Guitarman: We are losing pixels all around! Most of the lost pixels are the vertical pixels.

Check it out man, you will see at least 32 vertical pixels gone....Poof!

I already mentioned how to check that out...with anamorphic pic played (just measure the black bar thickness difference between default and custom 854 settings).

Fleaman

guitarman

06-25-05, 07:15 PM

Time to get the ruler out. The H27 was acting in the same way I think. Take a look at a 1.85 movie.

Loner

06-25-05, 08:21 PM

As you can see from my posts, and especially my recent post, the aspect ratio (with the Same Movie!) is slightly changed between 854, 848 custom and the 720x480 defaults.

This is not suppose to happen with 1:1 pixel mapping. It doesn't happen with the 4805's that are successfully 1:1 pixel mapped to and 848x480 resolution and it shouldn't happen with the H31. Something is wrong.

Again! > Nothing to do with aspect ratio differences between different movies!

Fleaman

Interesting... have you precisely measured the screen sizes to see which one is actually the correct ratio? Or are they both the same ratio with one just being shrunk smaller than the other one?

With 1:1 pixel mapping, if you were getting TRUE 1:1 pixel mapping, then in 720x480 you would see full size up and down and a smaller picture left and right... as in, only 720 pixels would actually be used!

This is not the case of course, 720x480 should get expanded out to the full size of the panel, but then it's not 1:1 pixel mapped. Up and down yes, left and right no. I don't think the pj knows different rezs, I think it would just expand it to be the full size of the panel no matter what signal is sent to it. But if it is aware of the different rez's, I wonder if it takes it into account when displaying the signal. As is, 720x480 is only a 1.5:1 ratio, 854x480 is 1.78:1 ratio. I would expect one to be shorter than the other. Hopefully the pj just takes whatever signal it gets and resizes in whatever direction it needs to the appropriate amount to get it to the edge of the screen. Sounds like this is not always the case tho. I don't know if I am getting across what I am trying to say, waaayyy too tired this evening, but hopefully it makes some sort of sense.

I've wondered about the settings on this pj (not having one yet of course)... my last pj was 1024x768. I had the option of either TRUE or EXPANDED. If I sent it a 640x480 signal, EXPANDED would scale it up to 1024x768 and use the full size of the screen, TRUE would just use 640 pixels of the lcd panel across and 480 up and down, in the middle of the screen. The rest of the panel would be unused. Then if for some reason I was permanently stuck at 640x480 I could mask out the rest of the panel and only use the sharp 640x480 and not have the softening due to the scaling. I don't suppose the H31 has something like this does it? If so, one could send it the 848x480, set it to the equivelant of my TRUE, be 1:1 pixel mapped, and just forget about the 3 pixels on either side of the screen that never get used. I am guessing tho that it doesn't have this or at least ONE person would have said they are just doing that to get a nice sharp picture without the pj trying to scale in an extra 6 pixels. If it does have it tho, I would be interested in how well it works.

Don

fleaman

06-25-05, 10:07 PM

Well that's the thing. If it's 2.35:1 you're not going to see 480 vertical pixels light up. More like 364. The only way you should see all 480 is if it's a 1.78:1 source, like HDTV, or 1.33:1.

This panel should be 1:1 pixel mapped (no scaling at the projector) with 1.33:1 (640x480), 1.78:1 (854x480), 1.85:1 (854x460), or 2.35:1 (854x364).

Ok, I made a clerical error regarding vertical pixels. Yes, I had that damn 480 # in my head which of course is not the amount used in a 2.35 movie. So, I should have been making my pixel amounts accounting for that 2.35 aspect size.

So, correcting my errors for a 2.35 aspect movie only (5Th Element):

>Amount of pixels that should be lit up: 854x364 (correct in 720x480 modes).
>Amount of pixels actually lit up in 854x480 mode: 846x332 (about).

854 to 846 % difference: About 1%
364 to 332 % difference: About 8%

As you can see, the % is still about the same as my previous flawed pixel counts. And yes 'Loner', the Aspect ratios are different:
>854x364 (854 divided by 364) = 2.35
>846x332 (846 divided by 332) =2.54

It really seems like the H31 is trying to squeeze the 854x480 content in 16:9 mode, hence screwing up the aspect ratio and loosing lots 'o pixels in the process.

So, does anyone else think that maybe the H31 is missing an 'Native' mode to run 854x480?

??

Fleaman

guitarman

06-26-05, 12:00 AM

I think we got a little off with the discussion. I tested an image this evening. I ran both the Bravo and Tosh with the resolutions that will show zero overscan and both looked great with no pixel cropping. Where I got pixel problems was with the other aspects that add overscan 5 percent or more with both machines. We're not losing image we're expanding image with the aspects that create overscan. :)

The Bravo D2 beats out the Tosh by a mile for crisp image quality, too bad I can only get it to work with a 6' cable. :(

CMRA

06-26-05, 01:28 AM

The Bravo D2 beats out the Tosh by a mile for crisp image quality, too bad I can only get it to work with a 6' cable. :(

As does the the Panny S97 and the Zenith 318. The Panny could even rival the sharp crisp image of my HTPC...at a price. Along with the crisper sharper image comes more noise and visable SDE. When you view the H31 at 1.6x as I do that becomes objectionable. The Tosh simply produces a softer silkier more filmlike image than its rivals. Wouldn't it be grand to find a player that was sharp and crisp and silky and smooth at the same time?

The Tosh also delivers in the most important area: It doesn't draw attention to itself with green push, macroblocking, video noise, crushed blacks or crushed whites. And when it comes to bringing out those luscious Optoma colors I have yet to see its equal.

Believe me, I keep trying to find a better player. I keep coming back to the Tosh as the better solution.

dropzone7

06-26-05, 09:07 AM

As does the the Panny S97 and the Zenith 318. The Panny could even rival the sharp crisp image of my HTPC...at a price. Along with the crisper sharper image comes more noise and visable SDE. When you view the H31 at 1.6x as I do that becomes objectionable. The Tosh simply produces a softer silkier more filmlike image than its rivals. Wouldn't it be grand to find a player that was sharp and crisp and silky and smooth at the same time?

The Tosh also delivers in the most important area: It doesn't draw attention to itself with green push, macroblocking, video noise, crushed blacks or crushed whites. And when it comes to bringing out those luscious Optoma colors I have yet to see its equal.

Believe me, I keep trying to find a better player. I keep coming back to the Tosh as the better solution.

CMRA, I'm curious if your using the component outputs for the Tosh player or the HDMI? The the excellent treatment of colors you speak of seems to be something inherent to the component output according to the specifications I was reading. At least that's the way it sounded.

CMRA

06-26-05, 10:12 AM

CMRA, I'm curious if your using the component outputs for the Tosh player or the HDMI? The the excellent treatment of colors you speak of seems to be something inherent to the component output according to the specifications I was reading. At least that's the way it sounded.

Both setups can do the job. It is however much easier via HDMI>DVI. The HDMI route also allows you to switch resolutions. Even though 480p gives you the sharpest crispest image on the H31, some DVDs benefit from upscaling. At 720p it tends to take away some of the 'digital' bite and produce a more filmlike image. A few DVDs even seem to benefit from going 1080i, ROTK comes to mind. In my H31 thread I posted my settings for the Optoma.

purdyd

06-26-05, 10:22 AM

[QUOTE=CMRA]As does the the Panny S97 and the Zenith 318. The Panny could even rival the sharp crisp image of my HTPC...at a price. Along with the crisper sharper image comes more noise and visable SDE. When you view the H31 at 1.6x as I do that becomes objectionable. The Tosh simply produces a softer silkier more filmlike image than its rivals. Wouldn't it be grand to find a player that was sharp and crisp and silky and smooth at the same time?

The Tosh also delivers in the most important area: It doesn't draw attention to itself with green push, macroblocking, video noise, crushed blacks or crushed whites. And when it comes to bringing out those luscious Optoma colors I have yet to see its equal.

QUOTE]

wow, i'm sorry, i thought for a second we were over in on one of the audio forums discussing speakers. That's normally where i read those type of adjectives :)

of course you can always put on the noise filter for the S97 or run it at 1080i or 720p into the H31 to 'soften' the image to that filmlike low noise (film low noise?). affect.

and i am sorry, it seems to me that SDE is SDE regardless of the source, it is an inherent part of the projector, those pesky spaces between the tiny luscious mirrors, of course i don't know everything,

but i do have an older toshiba DVD player and the newer S77 and the H31. SDE was SDE and sharpness was about the same (at least on static images) but the S77 does a slightly better job of displaying video material vice the older toshiba but i did think that the toshiba had some better colors,

now, i do know something about contrast and colors from digital photography and generally those eye popping colors are done by adjusting contrast curves. i hope this doesn't come as a shock to anyone that contrast curves are adjusted throughout the process of capture to display as well as white balance. by the way, there is no tooth fair, and if you saw the raw image captured from the CCD sensors of the camera before the contrast curve was applied, you would say, yuk, or some other adjective or compare it to some pungent nouns, oh and don't even get me started on white balance

anyway, to get eye popping color you increase the contrast range in the middle of the curve at the expense contrast in the top and bottom, i have spent a fair amount of time with wide dynamic range lighting pictures and in order to show the detail in both light and dark areas of wide dynamic range pictures, you often end up with a flat looking picture.

now the true gamma curve is an exponential function but different camera manufacturers and display manufacturers will vary from this to give their 'look' to images.

i am not sure what my point was, oh, yes,

The toshiba DVD through component looks pretty good
The panasonic DVD through HDMI looks pretty good - and if you play around with it (and the H31) you can customize to look quite a bit like the toshiba

when we all start talking with flowery adjectives, that means that measurable differences are getting slight which is good, that means the gear is all getting good!

oh and one last point, trust your eyes, not the equipment name plate

David

guitarman

06-26-05, 12:26 PM

As does the the Panny S97 and the Zenith 318. The Panny could even rival the sharp crisp image of my HTPC...at a price. Along with the crisper sharper image comes more noise and visable SDE. When you view the H31 at 1.6x as I do that becomes objectionable. The Tosh simply produces a softer silkier more filmlike image than its rivals. Wouldn't it be grand to find a player that was sharp and crisp and silky and smooth at the same time?

The Tosh also delivers in the most important area: It doesn't draw attention to itself with green push, macroblocking, video noise, crushed blacks or crushed whites. And when it comes to bringing out those luscious Optoma colors I have yet to see its equal.

Believe me, I keep trying to find a better player. I keep coming back to the Tosh as the better solution.

Very true about the smoother picture with the Tosh (CRT effect). Colors and signal power are a plus. But remote signal power is awful.

biglyle

06-26-05, 01:17 PM

What model Tosh are we talking about?

CMRA

06-26-05, 01:34 PM

Sd-5970

CMRA

06-27-05, 08:16 AM

I just found this thread on page two. You guys trying to hurt Tom's feelings?

dropzone7

06-27-05, 09:13 AM

CMRA, I know this is not the correct thread but since your here...I'm leaning very heavily towards getting the H31 to replace my Infocus SP4800. With all of your DIY screen experience, would you have a suggestion for me on a new screen combination? Other than Light Fusion that is. I'm sure LF is great but I just dont' think my wife is going to let me sink $100+ into a piece of plexi mirror when my blackout cloth screen is doing just fine. I'm just itching to try something different and was hoping you might have a suggestion for either a material or paint combination that might work well with the H31 or even with what I already have. I'm currently using 96"x54" blackout cloth screen painted with Behr UPW, rolled on with a bit of texture (not intentional). Anything fairly inexpensive I might try experimenting with? Thanks. :)

CMRA

06-27-05, 09:21 AM

AndyM

06-27-05, 05:58 PM

i'm hearing a lot of good things about how the H31 handles "good" transfers, but how does it handle bad ones (i.e. non-anamorphic, edge enhancement, mpeg ringing, blocking, early dvd transfers) ? obviously the image isn't going to be as good as on better transfers, but does it somehow make these look more watchable ? is edge enhancement/ringing/blocking less obnoxious etc. ? just curious. thanks.

biglyle

06-27-05, 06:18 PM

How good is the Panny S77 or S79 when a component connection is used?

I just hooked up my H31 and want to upgrade my 6 year old Panny RP32 (non progressive DVD player). I am not in the mood to run more cable, such as HDMI or DVI at this time (unless it really makes that much of a differance over component).

Will it be worth the upgrade?

RBurnthorn

06-27-05, 07:02 PM

I just picked up the LG DVB418 with my H31 and have had so far a very good experience with it. I had the Zenith DVB318 and it was very slow to respond whereas the LG version is very responsive. I thought these two were the same internally. I may have had a slow Zenith but it was the main reason for me to return it. So.. I thought I'd share that the 1080i looks great but the 480p doesn't look as good as my older JVC progressive.

RBurnthorn

06-27-05, 07:03 PM

Oh, I am using a via component with a component switcher 4 in 2 out.

CMRA

06-27-05, 07:43 PM

CMRA

06-27-05, 08:00 PM

How good is the Panny S77 or S79 when a component connection is used?

Will it be worth the upgrade?

I have yet to see a bad Panny player. From the RP series, to the XP series, to the S series, two thumbs up. Let's see...I have owned or auditioned the following:
RP 56
RP 62
RP 91
CP 72(5 disc changer)
XP 30
XP 50
S55
S97
S77

Yeah, it's safe too say they'll pass muster. Of course, I'd almost bet you'd like the HDMI even better.

LENNY 2112

06-28-05, 09:09 AM

Hmmm... I lost all my settings again, I guess I'll be sending my pj to Optoma. :(

milindn

06-28-05, 11:14 AM

Hi Guys! Thank You for all the great information!! Really helped me make the decession on the H31 and the Oppo. My only concern is I need a cable for about 30'. The ones that I have mostly seen on the market are either 25'(DVI Dual - $32) or 50'(DVI Dual - $55) . I can use the 25' with a 10' extension(DVI-D Dual - $8)

Is there a concern going either way (50' vs 25'+10')! - Just looking at the 'gurus' to point me in the right direction.

Thanks
Milind.

javajaws

06-28-05, 12:43 PM

I use a 30' DVI-D cable from bluejeanscable and don't have any problems. The cable coincidentally is hooked up to an Oppo.

Fokinel

06-28-05, 12:53 PM

[QUOTE=milindn]Hi Guys! Thank You for all the great information!! Really helped me make the decession on the H31 and the Oppo. My only concern is I need a cable for about 30'. The ones that I have mostly seen on the market are either 25'(DVI Dual - $32) or 50'(DVI Dual - $55) . QUOTE]

Unfortunate - there was a 32'/10m cable listed in the 'for sale' forum, but it's just been sold. I'll let you know how it works when the PJ shows up later this week ;)

biglyle

06-28-05, 05:49 PM

Well I just finished calibrating my H31 and I honestly cant believe how good this looks for how little it cost me. My wife and I are both in awe of this thing.
My setting seemed a little strange to me, but the work great will all the tests and the PQ is stunning, so I am set.

Anyone else have numbers close to these?

Cinima mode
film setting
bright 12
contrast 5
color 28
sharp 6
color temp 2
gamma 2
low bulb mode

high altitude fan mode (I dont mind the fan and a cool bulb is a happy bulb)

guitarman

06-28-05, 07:18 PM

What calibrating Disc did you use? You might get some tips in the first post of this thread. You don't have to go flat out and use the service numbers I added but there's other info there.

I usually find Sharpness a 3 eliminates the ghost but still keeps the image a little sharp.

AndyM

06-28-05, 07:28 PM

99 pages ? now that's a long thread, but where are all the screenshots ? a few on the first page (and mostly they look pretty good), but i (we) need more .... of course it's no substitute for seeing the thing in person, but it's a start. i'm seeing lots of words, but pictures would be more greatly appreciated ...

biglyle

06-28-05, 09:36 PM

guitarman

I was using DVE, but was having a lot of trouble with the contrats and brightness setting (didnt have this problem with the CRT), so I made some final adjustments using a THX optomizer disk.
I tried your settings and they give me pretty much the same results, the only differance is the numbers. I may like yours a tad more, so now I have -17 contrast and -2 brightness. I made a mistake earlier and posted gamma as 2 when in fact it was 1.

As for the sharpness adjustment, mine only seems to go in 12 number increments so it is staying at 6. Its either that or 17 or 16, go figure.

All in all, it looks amazing. I was watching an HD baseball game and couldnt believe it was a low res PJ. I have a 92 inch plasma killer for peanuts.

HeadRusch

06-28-05, 11:56 PM

H31 arrived today. The screen (freebie) is up and functioning (meaning...it deploys :) ). I just deboxed the Optoma, but it'll have to wait for tomorrow. I had NO IDEA this thing was SO SMALL!!!! I mean....its a *lot* smaller than I thought it was going to be.

Are the majority of the controls available via standard user menus?

How does one access the Service Menus....and is there anything in there that is
human-readable that needs to be tinkered with, or should this PJ do just fine
out of the box and with adjustments within the standard user menu's. I'm so used
to tinkering around with my Mits's service menu, not knowing how to get into one almost makes me feel useless :D

Now, can you guys give me the basics on setup without having to skim through these 99 pages again...? Questions to follow:

Does this thing have a filter? If so, do I need to clean it and how often......

What mode is the standard to use.....Cinema? Vibrant?? Does selecting one of these modes automatically put me into high lamp mode or not....the manual appears pretty sparse. I intend to run economy mode.

YES I own Avia and YES I will be using it first, before watching anything. This will probably happen sometime tomorrow evening. I will do the standard white/black balance and color adjustment. Then I will take Guitarman's advice and take a look at the greyscale step patterns and make sure there isn't any tint in any of them by adjusting R/G/B independently, which I *assume* you can do in the user menu and not have to go into a Service Menu.

POWER DOWN procedure: What is the defacto standard? This projector, once the "WOW" factor wears off, will be used for a few hours at a time...maybe 2 movies in a row and then not used for days, most likely. Pressing POWER on the remote will bring the projector down....can it then be left alone, or do I need to hang around for 1/2 an hour and shut off the powerstrip it will be plugged into....?

Many Thanks!

mystery

06-29-05, 07:29 AM

HeadRusch,

Return your H31, then read this entire thread through but don't skim. After that, re-order it and you'll be good to go. :D

Just kidding. :)

I'll answer some of your queries.

You don't need to go into the service menu but if you want to do this, the instructions are to be found on page 28 of this thread.

Thank goodness there is no filter to clean.

Don't worry about high lamp mode. You have to actually select it in order to be in it.

Many people start out with Film mode and then experiment with Graphics and PC modes to see the different gammas.

Just power down by pressing the power button on the remote twice and it'll go into it's cooling down cycle for a couple of minutes and then it'll 'sleep' until you're ready to view again. There is no off button on the remote or unit that will completely turn it off yet there's also no cooling fan that keeps running as the X1 has. So the H31 will sit quietly waiting for you to power it up again. A green blinking light will be evident indicating sleep mode. There is only a tiny bit of electricity going into the H31 during sleep mode and it's wise to just leave it like this unless you're going away on holiday for 2 to 3 weeks. It's designed and engineered to operate in this way and you don't need to unplug it from your power bar/wall socket except for long, extended periods of non-use.

Now hook that sucker up and we'll expect a full report on our desks in the morning!! ;) :)

Wayne

LENNY 2112

06-29-05, 08:26 AM

And when Mr. E wants a report Mr. E gets a damn polished shinny new report. :)

Well I'm getting reeeaaaal good at calibrating the H31. I finally wrote my settings down...phew. I think I'm going to try a good battery backup before I start pointing the problem at the H31. I noticed yesterday my lights in the theater room have a flicker to them, I'm wondering if I have dirty power. I'm thinking voltage drops may be the cause of this, Im hoping. I currently have a nice surge protector but that won't stop low voltage browning. Anyone know of a good battery backup???

HeadRusch: How things with the H31? What sources are you using: DVD, xbox?, HD cable?

mystery

06-29-05, 10:10 AM

Lenny,

I've got the Monster Power, Home Theater, Power Center HT200 Stage 1 surge protector/clean power device. Whew!! That's a mouthful! :)

Anyway, it works well for me. I don't know if it'll solve your settings problem but it may be worth a try. You're smart to have marked them down now. Still, this has to be a warranty issue if you can't figure it out any other way. The settings should hold unless you get a massive power outage.

Wayne

drdoan

06-29-05, 10:24 AM

LENNY 2112

06-29-05, 10:58 AM

A little keystone (IMHO) doesnt hurt the picture quality, I played around with it alot just messing around and never really noticed any picture degredation. Some mentioned it would be bad if a computer image was present, but I don't think any of us will be having that problem. :/

drdoan

06-29-05, 11:06 AM

I agree, I didn't notice a deterioration of the pic. Dennis

guitarman

06-29-05, 11:39 AM

I just received my H31 last Friday. I have played with the service and user settings. Thanks to Guitarman, the picture is so much better than I had imagined!! Thanks to all of the help on this thread (some day I will read EVERY post). I bought the projector with a 92" manual screen included. It just fits in my 11.8 x 15' HT room. I have blacked out the window and painted the room a very dark green (to match the "pale portabello" of the other rooms in our new home). The viewing angle is perfect. I did have to use a slight amount of keystone.
After having a Samsung 55" RPTV for a couple of years (calibrated several times), I didn't think moving to a PJ would be that impressive, apart from the screen size. I was wrong!!
the color is every bit as good and the contrast is way better than I thought it would be. Guitarman, thanks again for all your help. What a great PJ. Dennis

Sounds good, how's that screen working out? Mat White is known for natural colors and my big surprise was when I used the Dalite Mat white, even though it was non-tensioned and had physical waves, I couldn't see the waves when video was on it. The gray screen dalite makes would show waves with video, also the video spectra I had showed video waves. Now Optoma has their own screen and I'm buying one to try out. It's a high power gray screen they call GrayWolf. It's reflective like the Dalite High Power material so it shouldn't show waves, we shall see. The gain is 1.8 I think.

drdoan

06-29-05, 12:10 PM

The screen I got was made for Optoma as far as I can determine. It is a matte White. Not having much experience with other screens, all I can say is that: I don't notice any unevenness or distortions. My picture slightly overscans the screen because of the room size, but, it is not distracting at all. The whites look white and the blacks look black. Colors seem true and quite detailed. Since my room is very dark, I suppose that makes my screen perform well. Let us know what you think of the screen you are getting. Thanks again for your help Guitarman. Dennis

HeadRusch

06-29-05, 12:53 PM

drdoan

06-29-05, 01:24 PM

My HT room has the equipment in a stand on the right of the screen. I have a 25' component cable with a 6' extension to connect the receiver to the PJ. this setup seems to work just fine. I do have the center channel speaker under the screen with the tweeter at the same level as the side speakers. Even tho it is recommended that the center speaker be above the screen, I like the sound the way it is now. I sense that the sound stage is more even than before when the center speaker was on top of my rear projector tv. I pretty much have to keep my Harmon Kardon receiver in front of me to see the display because the stupid HK defaults to logic 7 music sound processing after it encounters a digital signal (as when surfing past digital and analog channels on my Direct TV HD receiver). You will love the picture when you get everything set. Have fun, Dennis

berserker37

06-29-05, 01:32 PM

Damn Optoma! This thing wont even throw up a menu without having a signal present, which is annoying :( I had hoped to use the menus to get the box situated and THEN run my cables....but no dice. Looks like later today I'll have to fire it up with one of my DVD players hooked up, just so I can dial in where the thing needs to sit.

Anyhow the NO SIGNAL display looked good :D

Where do you guys stash your audio equipment? I was going to leave mine tucked in the corner near the left or right hand sides of the screen...I dont find the LEDs to be that bright or distracting...but was wondering....are they that distracting...with a FP? I rarely noticed them with the RP.

There is no room for audio "behind me", it would have to be off to the left or right of my primary seating....which means I'd probably hear the DVD player whirring in soft scenes.

Maybe its time for one of those low-to-the-ground audio stands, and I can put my center channel on top of it, and sneak it under the screen. My Marantz receiver, which is the thing which throws off the most light from the front, has a "Display Off" button which I might get used to using.

Not exactly sure what it is called, but you can change the blank mode from black to blue. I did this, and it kind of helps in my totally dark theater when I power things off before turning up the room lights. It should also work pretty well for squaring things up. Of course, I guess you'd have to feed it a signal to get to the menus so that you could change it, but you could do that anywhere.

And as far as where the audio equipment goes, I got lucky - directly below our fireplace there is about a 4' wide by 2' deep "cutout" in the foundation, and it happens to be on the side wall of the theater. Makes a great spot for the audio equipment!

I'm eager to get some pics up, since I'm so pleased with how my theater turned out, but I just haven't found the time yet. Well, it will look better fully dressed anyway, with drapes over the windows and the wall decorations.

guitarman

06-29-05, 02:33 PM

My audio/video stuff is at the right of the screen also. But I was too chicken or lazy to crawl around the attic breathing fiberglass, plus my luck I'd probably fall thru the ceiling. I run the cables in house along the ceiling corner and then use plastic stripping to cover the wires.

benthered

06-29-05, 03:41 PM

Firstly, Id like to note that Ive just bought the H31 as a replacement for the 745/739 which *is not* suited to home theatre. The rainbox effects were BAD and the colours and picture were not as good as the H31. TigerDirect were excellent in replacing it - no restocking fee! For those tempted by the better resolution of the 745, don't bother, go with the H range of dedicated theatre models

Right! on to my question: I read in the manual the h31 can de-interlace a picture, but how do you switch that on - is it automatic? Im playing a DVD on a PlayStation2, using component connectors, so it is receiving a 480i signal. Also - the manual shows a 1080i option, but that doesn't appear on my menus - Im using a DVI connector from the Motorola HD cable box for TV and the component from the PS2 for DVD/games

drdoan

06-29-05, 03:44 PM

If I am not mistaken, the Projector will sense the correct signal and set it accordingly. Dennis

guitarman

06-29-05, 03:58 PM

I don't know can you set the Playstation to progressive? Anyway sending a component interlaced signal the projectors pixelsworks & 3Dpro will handle the scaling and deinterlacing, quite well I might add. Run some tests like Star Trek Insurrection, or Gladiator end of Chap 12 I think. The part where the toy gladiator is put in a scaled arena just after that the camera pans over buildings to the Colesium. Without good deinterlacing they'll be tons of jaggies activity here.

1080i gets picked up automatic. I remember seeing a 1080i choice 1,2 in a menu. Maybe it only appears with component video.

benthered

06-29-05, 04:01 PM

Thanks Tom. The PS2 can't handle progressive, so that was my question- does the H31 automatically de-interlace and interlaced signal? It seems 'yes' is the answer - cheers,
Ben

HeadRusch

06-29-05, 04:08 PM

Yes is the answer. All projectors will do this because digital projectors like DLP's and LCD's output a progressive signal by nature..they cannot produce an interlaced image.

The quality of the scaler and de-interlacer are what can often times set apart one projector from the next. That is why some people invest in a good DVD Player to handle the deinterlacing, whereas others just let the PJ do the work.

me2003

06-29-05, 08:57 PM

Im am curious on how many hours people have on there h31, i am currently at 496 hours and i had it since the end of january. The bulb is still nice and bright on my 80"screen and i havent even noticed the bulb dim at all yet, it looks like it did when it came out of the box.

Arty13

06-29-05, 11:53 PM

I've had my H31 since mid of Feb. 2005, i have 601 hrs on it... Still Lookes like its out of the box also... cant tell any difference in dimming :D
also me2003 did optoma call you this month at all asking how you liked the H31? just curious, not sure why they really called me... not totally sure how they got my cell phone number, unless they got it from the techs when i had to return my H30, but just curious... well the H31 is still going strong, and have no complaints unlike the H30 or many other pjs, DVI-D also works, even with 854x480(almost) :D... but if you are one that uses HTPC and you have no problem with the dvi-d, you will never have a complaint, otherwise if you arent an htpc user, you shouldnt have a complaint either :D

Arty

Dave Mack

06-30-05, 03:59 AM

RBurnthorn

06-30-05, 07:42 AM

My XBox puts out a 480p on some games and it looks amazing. Emersed in a 106" image...wow...

LENNY 2112

06-30-05, 08:27 AM

Well I'm going away until July 10th and I really want to bring my H31...it's like a 2nd child. I wish I had a little portable surround sound system.

AndrewZorn

06-30-05, 10:18 AM

has anyone tried HTPC with a dvi to component adapter (ati)? seems like it should work, no pixel mapping, but im starting to wonder whether the h31 on component would look better than the 4805 pixel mapped on dvi

CMRA

06-30-05, 10:30 AM

Well I'm going away until July 10th and I really want to bring my H31...it's like a 2nd child. I wish I had a little portable surround sound system.

Lenny...you sound like the perfect candidate for an Optoma MovieTime.

Dave Mack. I have compared both. The Mits will give the sharper image. It also puts out more light. Black levels are comparable.
The H31 retains Optomas legendary 'color' pallet and sells for half as much (street).
In home theater applications, you won't need the extra lumens so your'e left with 20% better resolution. Is that worth twice the price to you? Good hunting.

LENNY 2112

06-30-05, 11:13 AM

dropzone7

06-30-05, 11:23 AM

Once I ceiling mount the H31 it is staying til an upgrade or bulb change...maybe I can convince some family members to buy one of these...

Guys my next project is masking...in a sense for 2.35 material. I do see RBE a tad still and I notice it more on 2.35 material than 1.78 (obviously due to the black borders). This is my plan, to make a spare H31 lense cap (or some type of light deflector) and machine out the 2.35 profile so that only the projected 2.35 image will be on the screen, no projected black bars. Has anyone done any experimenting like this? Even if I block the borders with 2 peices of paper the image looks better and the RBE virtually goes away for me. I only have a few things to think about and that is how to keep it square with the H31 and how it can be removed remotely or without defocusing since the H31 will be on the ceiling.

I'm not so sure that putting something that close in front of the lens is a good thing. You might get heat build up over time and or a deteriorated image due to the light bouncing back into the lens from so close. I'm sure this has been done but I think it might need to be built where you can position the "border" a foot or two in front of the lens. This is all speculation of course but I would hate to see you mess up your projector. I'm interested in doing the same type of masking for 2.35 material so let's try and figure it out! :)

guitarman

06-30-05, 11:32 AM

Guitarman, can you tell me which would have better PQ when watching DVDs? The h31 or the Mits. hc900. I'm aware of the scaling/res. issues but have read great things about the Mits. in regards to black levels, (VERY imp!) and optics, etc...
Which would actually LOOK better?
Thanx! D

Probably you'll like an XGA res more. Mystery has an H57 which is priced like the HC900. Ask him the difference since he's had both the H31 and H57.

potus

06-30-05, 12:27 PM

I do see RBE a tad still and I notice it more on 2.35 material than 1.78 (obviously due to the black borders).

Er... why is this obvious? I can see RBE on 1.78 just as easily as I can for 2.35. One format seems no worse than the other. What's the black border got to do with it?

Dave Mack

06-30-05, 01:17 PM

CMRA,

Wouldn't that 20% more res. only apply to the HD signal? It would simply be upscaling the DVD signal, yes? The projectorcentral.com discussion seems to say that the sharpest pic. for DVD would be the straight non-scaled 480P. Now, I DO have LOTS of PAL dvds and I believe that if I bought a 2nd good stand-alone PAL player, (any suggestions, guys?) I could have some amazing images that way.
:) Thanx! D

biglyle

06-30-05, 02:11 PM

LENNY 2112

06-30-05, 02:14 PM

The only time I see RBE is when there is a very light color close to black, like white on black. So if the screen is bright scene I see the RBE on the edges of the 2.35 materia, that same bright scene on 1.78 the RBE goes away. To me it is like the black is acting like a mirror or something, when I get rid of the projector making the black by masking it goes away. I'll still see them in credits and dark scenes with bright lighting but this will eliminate alot for me. I'm sure everyone sees them different though.

LENNY 2112

06-30-05, 02:16 PM

well I just hooked my new panny s97 via component (set to 480p) and all I can say is , WOW.
What a differance this player makes from my 5 year old non progressive panny.

I am loving this PJ more and more every day.

Yea the Panny is great, will you try DVI soon? I just got my 25 footer in today, time to ceiling mount... :D

RBurnthorn

06-30-05, 05:03 PM

Doesn't there come a time when we just say , "lets enjoy the movie" and just let our little investment of what...1,029$...take over its value and just watch a friggin movie?

Ok. I just thought I'd be trying to convince myself anyways, but I have to say that 98% of people that walk into my theater room aren't looking for SDE, Color Reference, Balanced Contrast, etc.. Once they have a drink in their hand it is overwhelming to most that we have such things in our homes as theater rooms.

Most people think that it all costs in the 50K or more range for such a room, but I guess if you add the construction, the carpet, the seating and the treaments along with speakers and Audio components it does get up there, but not what most people think. But most of us are DIY people whereas it would cost someone that kind of money to have all this done.

This H31 has tons of bang for your buck performance, and I really have been surprised by its performance of such a low cost projector.

While we can nit pick it to death in small details, I am very pleased with its performance I feel it will last until the 1080p's come out and down to a reasonable level.

Just thought I'd throw the value of the H31 out there...now I'm off to play some Medal of Honor in my favorite room in the house.

mystery

06-30-05, 07:57 PM

Guitarman,

Yes, I'd be happy to say a few words about my experiences with the H31 and H57 for Dave Mack's benefit. Even though the H31 didn't work out for me, I'm still in the Optoma family with the H57. :)

Dave,

I don't know anything about the HC900 but I have owned both the H31 and H57. I feel that blacks and contrast ratio are virtually identical. Of course you can sit closer to the screen with the H57 due to the increased resolution. Also, the H57 is a super bright projector which means that you can use a larger screen without losing enough lumens to make the image dim. Color saturation seems to be a little better with the H57 and color accuracy is noticeably better on the H57. Reds are very red. I didn't care for the orangey reds on the H31.

The fan would appear to operate at the same decible level on both. The remotes are the same shape and size but the buttons are configured differently. The menu system is better on the H31 in my opinion. I also like the 1.66:1 aspect ratio option on the H31 for 4:3 material which the H57 doesn't have.

The H57 has worked without a hitch for me with an HTPC. Both H31s which I tried would only work initially via DVI from a computer and then inexplicably lose the ability to sync.

The H31 is very stylish and cute. The H57 won't win any awards for styling and it's much larger.

I also like the fact that the H57 has a separate VGA port while the H31 must share one port that does double duty DVI/VGA.

Both are terrific projectors. I elected to upgrade to the H57 and I'm very happy with it. I absolutely love the colors that Optoma projectors produce.

Wayne