Optoma has a new 30 version the H31 w/480p Dark chip 2, native widescreen. Same case and remote as the H30 with added DVI, Component, in place of the VGA connection. First off Mike is right the Dark chip2 does produce a very dark black. Lucky for the H31 it does because this thing is a light cannon and in econo. So you get a large swing from blacks to whites. Contrast is high/brightness is high. Colors are intense with the classic Optoma citrus juicy look. :)

Optoma added some excellent aspect features to the H31. It has a 1080i 1 & 2, these come in handy because when viewing OTA 480p you can expand the image, making for thin bars on the sides and keeping the image natural. We all like a bigger picture. :)

Theres an feature called Edge Mask, this is good if a TV signal shows garbage around the rim. Hit the Edge Mask on and it disappears. Nice feature

There's several aspects for 4.3, Normal, 1.66, 1.85, 2.35. Normal is standard size, the other expand the image. These are also useful for non-anamorphic dvds although there's a discrete button on the remote for Letterbox which will handle NA-dvds also.

Then there's this great feature for electric screen users or maybe manual pull types. It's called image shift. Like last night I viewed Bourne Supremacy which is 2.35. You use the image shift to raise the image up to delete the top black bar and in turn raise up the electric screen to delete the bottom black bar. You end up with a panoramic 2.35 setup. Very nice

Also this procedure can go in reverse. A user with a Theater view Dalite type screen that pulls up from the floor can set the image shift down and in turn lower the top of his screen down. Deleting the 2.35 black bars. Each function has a memory setup to simplify with a hit of a button.

On to the screenshots. :)
I used a Phillips Q50 in progressive for these shots.

Also took a look at DVI with the Bravo and it's very clean. Seems 480p looked the sharpest. Avia showed Zero overscan.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31fifth1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31fifth2.jpg

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31lotr1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31lotr2.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31lotr3.jpg

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31glad1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31glad2.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31glad3.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31glad4.jpg

How to eyeball a better grayscale.
"Some tuning tips for all displays that have advance RGB-adjustments for grayscale.

After making initial Avia changes take a look at the Avia Needle Pulse pattern to see that there's no color tints in the Gray to White steps in the upper part of the pattern. The Pluge pattern also in Avia called Black Bars+ Log Steps. It's found under Video Test Patterns/Gray Scale & Levels/Black & White levels -

If it's not dead on grays to white make final changes with the user advanced adjustments.


Example - you see red/pink tint in the light gray/white.
R-contrast -2
G-contrast +2
B-contrast +2

If you see green in the dark grays/black
R-brightness +2
G-brightness -2
B-brightness +2

You see how it works, color in the light grays you use the RGB-contrasts

Color in the dark grays you use the RGB-brightness to fix.
enjoy and get good at it, can really make a huge difference "

Also I would start by first deleting the color you need until it's out of the grays. Lets say it took 8 clicks minus on the red to get there. Instead of leaving this make it just 4 clicks and inturn add four clicks more to the Blue & Green for better balance."

For you guys using DVI here's the numbers for D65k

First in the service area setting up Image/Film gamma 1
Picture -
Gain Red 167
Gain Gr 158
Gain Bl 155

Bias Red 123
Bias Gr 125
Bias Bl 125

DLP's are all at 32

Next PC gamma 1
Service picture area remains the same, just use the User Advanced RGB

Red Contrast minus 2
Gr Contrast 0
Bl Contrast 0

Red Brightness 1
Gr Brightness 0
BL Brightness 1

Don't change any other things in the service menu, just Picture. Don't mess around in there. Oh plus write down your original service Picture RGB numbers.

After changing use avia for black and whites my user blacks&whites were the following, at least for PC gamma1 which I'll be using.

Cinema
Contrast minus 17
Brightness zero
"

"Here's some colorfacts numbers for analog 480i/480p

480i Film gamma 2, yes that's right Film needs to be used for analog, PC wouldn't work it would crush out the whites, PC works for DVI though.

Service Picture RGB's
Gain red 165
Gain Gr 159
Gain Bl 155

Bias Red 128
Bias Gr 125
Bias Bl 129

480p component/analog, Film, gamma 2
Service menu

First ADC
Red Gain 170
Gr Gain 167
Bl Gain 169

Red offset 72
Gr offset 59
Bl offset 62

Picture service area,
Gain Red 122
Gain Gr 124
Gain Bl 125

Bias Red 124
Bias Gr 126
Bias Bl 124

If you try any of these pls write down your original numbers.

480i/480p numbers done with Denon 1600/RP82/Xp50, same deal. Any decent analog player that has normal blacks may work for these numbers, and maybe not. So save your old numbers incase you want to go back.

Bravo D2/H31 optoma DVI, I got a read back of 854X480 - 60hz - Mode84 with these settings. Pixel crop zero, Overscan zero.

Hor Freq 47900, Vertical Freq 5994
Vid width 0854, Video height 0480
Hsync 1312 PreHsync 0016
Hsactive 0096 PostHsync 0176
Vstotal 0800 Prevsyn 0001
Vs active 0003 Postvsync 0028
Hspolarity0001 Vsynpolarity 0001

I am far from a expert here, but seems like the contrast could be turned down just a bit, the LOTR shots seem like the whites are a little to hot, or losing a bit of detail. Look at gandalf(sp) hat, looks to me that it is losing detail at the top part of the hat.

Thanks for the review!

Camera exposure varies sometimes. Some look good/ some look great!
Live is always better.

"hat, looks to me that it is losing detail at the top part of the hat."

Ah ha, Dalite cosmo screen has an octagonal case, flat angled part which reflects light. I have to get around to painting it black some day.

Good work as usual Tom.

How is the setup right out of the box? That's been the bane of the H30.

Wing said they're pain stakingly tuning these for an excellent OTB picture. I didn't make any adjustments just used Avia, thinks look very good. Except at first I needed blinders on. :)

I was wondering if you'd done any adjustments. The colors look a lot richer than they do on the H30, and there isn't the slightest hint of a green push. Very nice!

Also, does it do component through the DVI port, or does it have a separate input?

any idea of MSRP and availablility?

Fabbas, yes it will handle analog component thru DVI, there's a menu switch for DVI-D to DVI-analog. Also it comes with a DVI to HDMI converter in addition to the VGA to DVI converter. Colors look strong I figure due to the Dark chip or dimple fix, it gives another level of black and makes colors strong.

Last I heard MSRP is $1499

Tom ,
-- I doubt that MSRP will stick at $1499 seeing how the 4805 MSRP just dropped to $1299 ;) .

--- So how would you say the H31 over-all image compares to the H30 [ brightness aside ] ?

--- Is it as smooth as the H30 or did the optics improve on the H31 ?

-------- Jason

It's smooth but you know what I think? The dark chip 2 creates a darker rim around the pixels. Doesn't create noise but the SD would be more viewable. Over all the image has a dark aura but luckily it's brightness is so powerful it pushes open black details. Colors are the classic Optoma look, which is similar in the whole line. Wish I had a Minolta Light meter I'd love to see what kind of CR we're getting.

Hate to even ask, but any buzzing??:D

Tom - I don't suppose you could take a picture up close to get a sense of the strength of the SDE?

Very quiet, I had to put my ear on the machine to hear something. It just sounds smooth.

Originally posted by Fabbas
Tom - I don't suppose you could take a picture up close to get a sense of the strength of the SDE?

It's just like the H30 SD, thin. But the lines are darker in color. Most all the VGA screen doors are similar and really not a bother when viewing at a correct distance.

Except for the Z90, I don't know what was going on with that one.

Hi Tom,

What is the brightness spec for this unit. Is it higher than the H30? Is the SDE less than the H30?

Not certain on the Lumens maybe the same 800 but having the light shoot thru the 16.9 frame boosts brightness incredibly. Result is, it's much brighter than the H30. Dithering is lower also. Screen door seems about the same.

Most all the VGA screen doors are similar and really not a bother when viewing at a correct distance.

I have to ask, what is a correct distance per resolution in terms of screen widths?

Thanks, Brian

About two times the screen width, give or take a foot according to how great your eyesite is. I often wonder if people that need to wear glasses have a disadvantage in this area. Probably yes

Hey Brian, If I remember right you had or have a DT200 or Z90, that was a ruff one for SD. I use to defocus it a little.

i am about to purchase the infocus 4805 but since this h31 has dvi, 16X9 native, and juicy colors i might consider, is this thing out yet, if not how soon can we see it? ps nice pics...

How would you compare the H31 to the Infocus 4805, if you know?
Thanks.

ditto on 4805 vs h31 question, can you place pics for comparison?

Great as always, Tom.

Improvements are cool, but I don't think H30 owners should fret at this point. Like Tom said before, this time next year there will be something bigger and better for the same price. Don't get upgrade-itus yet!

(Unless there is a CONSIDERABLE trade in from optoma...! Maybe Tom could look into it with his swanky connections...)

Tom: I know this is not HD resolution as such, but when you view HD from Directv or over the air network stations, do you get a 16 x 9 image on a 16 x 9 screen. I have a EDTV plasma now, and at 12 feet, there is zero difference between by HD Sony direct view and this Panny EDTV on HD programming 1080I (720P)and wide screen. So, I imagine this same general principle holds for front projectors. For $1500 this seems to be one of 2-3 I should be looking at, it seems. And I like quiet; some are not that quiet. I would sit back around 20 feet from screen by the way. I believe DVDs (480) look somewhat better on 480 screen cpmpared with 720 screen.

i have no answers in this thread only questions :(
i m looking for something quiet dlp thing too. I ve a 7x5 feet screen, is the resolution of the h31 good enough for bigger pictures ?
I think it will be the H31 or the h57 :p

On those screen shots, I realize you used the factory setting pretty much. I trust the reds can be tamed? No problem to adjust colors?

"Tom: I know this is not HD resolution as such, but when you view HD from Directv or over the air network stations, do you get a 16 x 9 image on a 16 x 9 screen"
For sure you get a full 16.9 image with HDTV thats sent in widescreen. OTA 480p most of the time is 4.3 and what I like about this one is you can expand it wide and natural with very small black bars on the sides. Most projector lock in the OTA 4.3 and you have to watch it small.

The machine is super quiet and resolution is perfect for DVD and scaling of HDTV is also excellent.

It can blast out a large image if you want because of the brightness. Use the two times rules for seating area and you'll be ok.

There's more adjustments in the Optoma than any other projector I've seen. Plenty of room there for tweaking.

Tom: Thank you, my friend. This begins to look like a best buy. My remaining consideration, should I go for HD definition. As I have said, at a distance, HD programming looks very good on and ED (480) display. I would imagine this will carry thru to HD DVDs in a year or 2.

Always go for HD if your budget allows. When we get into screens this size the difference is very noticable. HD looks good on a VGA machine but there's no comparison vs a 720p machine no matter how far you're back.

And your recommendation on a HD machine..under $2,000

Originally posted by mangopony
And your recommendation on a HD machine..under $2,000

lol, there aren't any DLP's. The Panasonic 700 LCD looks to be pretty good. But they come with some issues. You'll hv to research it.

Originally posted by duffybarracuda
i have no answers in this thread only questions :(
i m looking for something quiet dlp thing too. I ve a 7x5 feet screen, is the resolution of the h31 good enough for bigger pictures ?
I think it will be the H31 or the h57 :p

If you can afford the price on the H57 I'd look at that one. It's not out yet but it looks like these two will be out any day now. I should be getting a H57 to review any day now. I haven't had an XGA machine in while and forgot how well they do on HDTV. It's defintely worth the extra doe.

Thank you, Tom. By the way, it is just a
matter of opinion on which is better, DLP or LCD, yes? I know in rear protection they are a toss up. The Panny 700 and Sanyo 3 are both around $2000. Both are HD resolution, I believe.

Oh, and I think the Infocus 5000 is HD. And around $2000..little less. Will check it out.

How would you compare the H31 to the Infocus 4805? Thanks.

is this h31 available? if not when? whats the msrp? where can i get one?

how about: H31 vs. NEC HT510 overall image considering a 92" diag screen viewed 132" away. I don't want to see pixels, but I want nice colors...
which one, which one?

Four of these, each doing a quarter of the screen, 1706 x 960 resoloution
That's still pretty darn good resolution for $6K and super bright!. The globe replacement cost would be high.....hey but...the benifits are there.

I know they do this at exibitions etc.........does anyone here have a set up with a similar configuration. Budget HD!

Originally posted by Jim McC
How would you compare the H31 to the Infocus 4805? Thanks.

These are all pretty cool projectors and they have their trade offs. The H31 is similar to the 4805 in that it has the dark chip 2.

"Here's one thing I've figured out relating to these two projectors. 4805 owners/reviewers have said (me included) the screen door seems more noticeable and some added there's video noise. It's not video noise they're seeing it's pixel noise or the dots at the corners of the pixel. They see this more because the box around the pixel on the new chip is pronounced and dark. This does have an advantage in that the image has better blacks and takes on a sharper look. But it does come with it's trade offs on the clarity of the dots. Use the two times the screen rule on these projectors. Colors tend to look more natural on the Optoma line. THe H31 has a ton or new aspect features which are great.

The 510 has this same type chip but the pixels are half the size so it looks smoother, but it comes with it's disadvantage in colors and contrast. The 510 uses a prism design which is why it has less contrast. You should understand the 1200.1 is still a decent contrast. The picture does look clear, there's no haze effect that earlier models had. There's tradoffs across the board. Colors, blacks, Res, You'll hv to balance out what you like best.

Colors are better on the H31 and 4805, screen door is less bothersome on the H30, blacks and contrast are allot better looking on the H31. Lots of trade offs. lol

In the end anybody starting out would be happy with any of these machines compared to the old hazy LT150 days.

Originally posted by Bertola
how about: H31 vs. NEC HT510 overall image considering a 92" diag screen viewed 132" away. I don't want to see pixels, but I want nice colors...
which one, which one?

Hi guy, like they've handed down over time.

"you can't have your cake and eat it to."

There's trade offs. If you want to view up close the higher res. If you want the best colors the RGB/RGB wheel. Which are you going to get?

Originally posted by mangopony
Thank you, Tom. By the way, it is just a
matter of opinion on which is better, DLP or LCD, yes? I know in rear protection they are a toss up. The Panny 700 and Sanyo 3 are both around $2000. Both are HD resolution, I believe.

LCD could be your solution for the best HDTV. They have some issues that bother people, vertical banding, more chance of dead pixels happening, panel degradation possibilities. Lots of new users still like them though. Research them some more.

Here's the $64K question: Can you access the service menu the same way as the H30? ;)

Yes, same way.

Tom,

Do you know what the throw ratio range is? I can't find info anywhere, including pjcentral and Optoma's site.

Thanks

Hey Tom-

Is the HT1100 still your fav?

The offset is average, about 8 or 10".

Ryan, I sold the HT1k along time ago and it's still the best 4.3 machine and same for the HT1100. I'm almost embarrassed to say it but my H77 is my favorite now.

If you want colors AND resolution the NEC HT1100 is still on the market, and the Optoma H57 as well. You need to pay more bills if you want both. Which BTW is not as much as it used to be - as it is now a proud member of this forum (MSRP $3499 w/o anamorphic lens)

If the Optoma H31 is as good a DarkChip2 480P implementation as the Infocus SP4805 - many people realize that if you make a small compromise moving back 2' to fit the 2x viewing rule - that you cannot beat colors/contrast on DVD's and HDTV still looks better. Yes you have to compromise your screen size compared to a 720P display - but name a 60" plasma you can buy for $1500.


The DarkChip2 has physically less screen door than previous chips - but because of contrast improvements it is easier to see. A darker thinner line is easier to see than a lighter fuzzier line. Glad to see Tom has finally figured that out ;-)

I only took a look at the 4805 once when it first arrived.

Kras, I was wondering last night why so many said there's video noise with the 4805 (It's not video noise, it's pixel dot). After seeing the same thing with the H31 I compared SD with the H30.

H30 is super smooth with no video noise effect which is a good thing. It's one of the high points I saw when trying a SVGA machine out. Which I thought was risky being use to the HT1000. If users consider themselves SD sensitive the H30 would be a good choice.

But there's no denying the added blacks of the H31 is nice also. The added black/contrast mimics the HD2+. Both still great machines.

Is that right the HT1100 msrp went to $3.5 w/the lens? If so with a nice street price that would be a killer deal.

Yep I think NEC figured they had to compete with the Infocus SP5700 which also just joined this forum.

Have a customer that needs fullscreen for photography so looking at the HT1100. I will add it to my comparison review.

So my burning question is, what's the throw ratio and length? I know some troublesome people insist projector manufacturers should use long-throw lenses to force people to sit at a distance that someone *else* thinks is correct, but I like the option to be able to throw a big picture in a small room, or a smaller and brighter picture by mounting the projector closer to the screen.

~ Kiran <entropy@io.com>

Optoma probably wont sell any H31 models till the H30's are gone. My guess is March for mass distribution. It will debut at CES.

Wing wouldn't have sent me one if they weren't ready to go. He's in Taiwan this week, usually that happens when they're ready to release some new items. I hope that means the H57 will be ready also.

Kiran, throw is just like the H30. I have it now in the same ceiling mount I use for the H30. Only difference is the offset it's smaller I'm able to use it with no keystone now. Projectors straight w/no up tilt.

i always liked the way people described the colors of the h30 but i didnt want to get it because of dvi which the 4805 has. i was all ready to get the 4805 this week but now i want the h31 but how soon will it come out, my money is burning a hole in my pocket, guiterman would you want to sell it? lol!!! just joking, is it possible to get it from over seas?

Just talked to the marketing director about it, he says soon. I can get a better idea on Monday when Wing comes back from Taiwan.

thanks so much, gues i will hold off on the 4805 until monday, any idea on msrp price? or wether it will be cheaper than the current h30?

Well, been doing lots of research for a very good, inexpensive fp. My conclusion: Infocus 4805 or Optoma H30. Can buy 4805 for around xxxx. I believe H30 will have to compete or come very close. Do you have a date for the H30? The new 5120 BenQ is also in this price range and seems to be very good as well. I just happen to find this is where the real value is in front projectors. I have compared with plus $2000 projectors but not side by side so to speak. From what I remember, playing same source material, just not a thousand dollars better. I can put that extra $1000 to a better use and still get a great picture. Also, things are moving fast in video (LCD, plasma, and FP). Just not the time to spend a whole lot of money for somewhat better performance (PQ).

Watch the pricing posts-MP

mangopony, I think you mean the H31. The H30 has been around for awhile and has recently dropped in price as well. There isn't a set price on the H31, but the recent drop in 4805 price will likely dictate its list price.

Originally posted by guitarman
Kiran, throw is just like the H30. I have it now in the same ceiling mount I use for the H30. Only difference is the offset it's smaller I'm able to use it with no keystone now. Projectors straight w/no up tilt.

I assume that mean it projects an image the same size as the 16X9 image produced by the H30?

That would suck for me--I'd prefer it to project an image the same height as the H30 and somewhat wider (since I'm limited by height rather than width.)

~ Kiran <entropy@io.com>

Originally posted by MikeSRC
Here's the $64K question

Young people today. It was the $64 question on a radio show called Take It Or Leave It

http://www.wordsmith.org/words/sixty-four_dollar_question.html

"From a popular radio quiz show in the US in the 1940s which offered $64 as the largest prize. The first question had a prize of $1 and the prize total doubled with each successive question: $2, 4, 8, 16, 32, culminating in the $64 question. With inflation, this term is used in many variant forms, such as, "$64,000 question" and upwards."

http://www.andrewtobias.com/bkoldcolumns/990617.html

"Regarding your recent column, the expression, in a less munificent version -- 'that's the $64 question' -- predates the television quiz show. In the 1940s a radio quiz show 'Take It or Leave It' had a $64 question that worked its way into the language and meant that later the title of the TV quiz show would have some resonance. I remember watching the television show the night it premiered. When I told my parents about it, they were quite certain I was confused -- NO ONE could possibly give away the almost unimaginable sum $64,000." -- Tom Williams

And here's another article on the history of quiz shows.

http://www.pclaunch.com/~kayton/MAHigh/QuizKids/history.htm

~ Kiran <entropy@io.com>

You're right, I wasn't around for the 40's radio show, so I just remember the 50's TV show, the $64,000 Question. ;)
See here:
http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/S/htmlS/$64000quest/$64000quest.htm

Anyway, here's a new $64 question for Tom: :D

Although I know you prefer a 4:3 screen, if you had to choose a projector for 16:9, would it be the 510, H31, 4805 or would you say the H30 was still better in 16:9 mode?

Why'd you have to ask me that. To be honest, I'd get the 510 for the res. Ever since I've had the H77 HD2+ resolution has me spoiled.

I would pick the H31 over the others because over all image quality is very high. I'd make myself get use to the higher SD for the higher contrast picture, plus the colors are even nicer if that's possible. The 31 beats out the 510 for contrast and colors by a very long margin also.

Edit: on second thought maybe I would choose the H31 or 510 or wait H31, what a dilemma it's a toss up. :)

Originally posted by guitarman
Why'd you have to ask me that. To be honest, I'd get the 510 for the res. Ever since I've had the H77 HD2+ resolution has me spoiled.


I know what you mean. I had a 7205 in for a few days to set up for a customer and it's hard to go back to the H30 right after that. :)

hey guys i am finally back on the forum :) , man what stressful couple of months i have had moving in to my new home but finally i am up and running :) ,in the nice city of oakville .


tom so i see the h31 is out and i figure the h57 is out also , so let the next mega thread began .


and mike and tom i can also sympathize about being spoiled with the higher end pj's ;) , personally i think it is cruel teasing in the ht market . :)


ps and tom i have set up 3 h77's so far and the pj is great , but there is still a little dither in the pq . But the pj dialed in pretty well

So you are doing the tuning thing. Did you pick up colorfacts? I may pick up the program again, I'll make it a Xmas present to myself. :)

I figure I could run an add, tune up your digital projectors. Could be lucrative with all the people picking up the RP-DLP's & RP-LCD's. Plus these will be a snap to tune up.

After viewing the H31 for the last few days, it's a very nice upgrade for new buyers. Very nice

Tom: Do you have a price on h31 as yet? And, a questions, as you seem to know projectors. LCDs Sanyo z3 and 700 Panny..around $2000..4805 and H31, a lot less money. Do you think it is jusified to spend a lot more money to buy the $2000 projectors?. I have a plasma in home and would watch only HD and DVDs. I have a EDTV now and the HD programming looks excellent. So, perhaps, a ED (480P) would be just fine. I have total light controlled viewing area. In other words, in your opinion, is the better PQ worth the bigger bucks?

Originally posted by mangopony
Tom: Do you have a price on h31 as yet?


I don't know anymore what the price is going to be. However, up until the price drop on the 4805, it was going to be priced the same. My local distributor had them on their order page at a price that was actually higher than the 4805. It's not listed there anymore.

However, they do have H57s in stock right now..... priced very high though, so I don't know if I will get one. I'm picking up Mitsubishi and will likely bring in their 900U for demo purposes in that demo room.

Rule #1 about Optoma: The left hand has absolutely NO idea what the right hand is doing.

The 4805 is a fine projector and at list of $1300, probably can not be beat. However, to try, Optoma will have to price H31 about at that price point. Seems, with the PQ on these cheaper projectors, it is hard to justify even spending $2000 anymore on a projector. Just my opinion.

hey tom if you are talking to me yes i have the colorfacts and it is pretty easy to do the optoma because of the easy access to the contrast and the brightness setting > :) , usually i don't have to go into the service menu and that is a plus also.


but i have to say even though i am not a big fan of infocus ,there 4805 and 7200 series pj's are very nice out the box and easy to dial in also .



and tom for it being lucrative , well i don't know about that but it is not bad much easier than working with crt based systems ;)

Originally posted by mangopony
Tom: Do you have a price on h31 as yet? And, a questions, as you seem to know projectors. LCDs Sanyo z3 and 700 Panny..around $2000..4805 and H31, a lot less money. Do you think it is jusified to spend a lot more money to buy the $2000 projectors?. I have a plasma in home and would watch only HD and DVDs. I have a EDTV now and the HD programming looks excellent. So, perhaps, a ED (480P) would be just fine. I have total light controlled viewing area. In other words, in your opinion, is the better PQ worth the bigger bucks?

The picture on the H31 is pretty incredible. The deep blacks that still show very good detail by the way added with the increased color saturation has it looking very much like the HD2+ with the dark segments color wheel. So if you view at a correct distance you'll get a smooth picture that's very 3D. The LCD's still can't compete with this kind of contrast and black detail. So for the large dollar sayings it's a great choice. Oh HDTV will still look more than excellent, scaling is top notch, brightness and detail is very good also.

That 2.35 setup for people with adjustable screens is pretty cool. Nothing better than watching a 2.35 movie in panoramic with no bars on the top and bottom. You get a better perceived contrast without the bars and a majority of movies are 2.35. Gotta ask if they can add that to the H77.

About the price, they were thinking of setting it similar to the 4805, $1495 I guess.
They tend to think their street prices can be better. So it may be that street wise you'll end up with a similar price to the 4805. I should find out the info early next week.

Originally posted by new teq joe
hey tom if you are talking to me yes i have the colorfacts and it is pretty easy to do the optoma because of the easy access to the contrast and the brightness setting > :) , usually i don't have to go into the service menu and that is a plus also.


but i have to say even though i am not a big fan of infocus ,there 4805 and 7200 series pj's are very nice out the box and easy to dial in also .



and tom for it being lucrative , well i don't know about that but it is not bad much easier than working with crt based systems ;)

I was figuring since the program is so expensive maybe I could re-coupe some of the expense by doing a few tunups. Probably not Lucrative for sure, most people don't know what Avia is or care. :) Maybe Milori will have a Xmas special.

Thank you, Tom. If I can buy it for same as 4805, I think I have found my first projector.

By the way, I will be viewing DVDs..and HD content. Do you know if resolution will be same on h31 as h30? I believe that was 800 x 600, yes? I would come into h31 with component; how would the h31 scale the 1080I or 720P? I could never understand why a projector would not be 480P or 1080I. How does the 600 resolution come into play, I wonder? Also, do you have numbers for contrast and light. I understand the strong suit of the Optomas have always been, the colors, yes? Bottom line, how is the 31 improved from the 30?

Originally posted by guitarman
Maybe Milori will have a Xmas special.

Probably not, but they may have a CES special in January (they had a CEDIA special). I've been thinking about getting Colorfacts as well. I'll have talk to Mark at CES and see what he can do.

I was also really impressed with the Optic One/Avia Pro package at CEDIA. I got a nice presentation from the engineer that created it, so that's another possibility. :confused:

Hi Joe. Glad to see you 'round these parts again. :)

was just reading what Projector Central had to say about H30. As usual, pros and cons but one thing did bother me. They said that brightness falls off 40 percent from center of screen to edges, quite high for a projector. Any comment from anyone who knows this projector. By the way, it was also stated that in practice of viewing video this was not that noticeable but it does make me a little nervous. I like the screen to show about same brightness throughout.

Originally posted by mangopony
was just reading what Projector Central had to say about H30. As usual, pros and cons but one thing did bother me. They said that brightness falls off 40 percent from center of screen to edges, quite high for a projector. Any comment from anyone who knows this projector. By the way, it was also stated that in practice of viewing video this was not that noticeable but it does make me a little nervous. I like the screen to show about same brightness throughout.

I have an H30 and also dealt with 2 others (one I returned and the other was my boss's). I have to say the on the 3 I dealt with, brightness/focus uniformity was not that great. It's true that it's hard to notice anything awry while watching a movie from a normal distance, but it does bother me.
On mine, the left side of the screen is sharp...pixel squares are very apparent and the left screen boarder is sharp. But as you move to the right side of the screen, things start to get fuzzy...the pixel squares start to fade away and the upper and left black screen boarders are now fuzzy instead of sharp boarders. The upside to this I suppose is that you could sit a little closer as the pixels are not as noticeable...but it's not uniform and it seems to be an un-uniform focus issue, which bothers me overall.

Still, I can't seem to notice anything wrong from a normal viewing distance....except for the black screen boarders, I can still clearly see the top and right sides are fuzzy and the left side has a nice sharp black boarder.

And in case anyone thinks it's a keystone issue of some sort, it is not, I've tried all different angles and distances, but the focus problem seems to be internal to the projectors optics. There are pockets of sharpness and fuzziness through out, the fuzziness is not uniform.

I'm guessing this is possibly to be expected on a sub $1500 projector.

It bothers me though.

The other 2 H30's also weren't perfect on this...although the un-uniformity were in different parts of the screen. Just seems that the Q.C. of the optics are not the high point of this projector....on the 3 that I've had experience with.

Wondering if the H31 is any better?

And not to slow Tom's praise down, but my guess is that the H31 he got was probably cherry picked to make sure it was sweet, so while he might have a nice sharp optic H31, others might not be so lucky.

Fleaman

I wanted to add: My boss's H30 had better uniform pixels/focus than mine and when we were comparing the 2, it bothered him a little that his projectors pixel blocks were more noticeable than the ones on my H30.

To each is own!

Fleaman

Don't you think Benq dropped the ball when using only a 5 segment 2xspeed wheel where as every other one in this price range and chip resolution is running a 6 segment 4x speed wheel?

Tom
Did they address the Light spill around the lens hood or did your demo come with the modified lens cap like the H30's?

Originally posted by mangopony
[B]By the way, I will be viewing DVDs..and HD content. Do you know if resolution will be same on h31 as h30? I believe that was 800 x 600, yes?/B]

The H30 is 800x600, and the H31 is 854x480.

~ Kiran <entropy@io.com>

entropy: Thank you for info. that 480 makes a lot more sense. That is what my new plasma is. It matches DVDs exactly.

Yes, it seems, this big measured fall off in brightness (being uniform across screen) could be a deal buster for me. Hope the H31 takes care of this..up to a point, at least. Nothing is going to be near perfect for $1200 but, it seems to me, the brightness should be 'almost' even throughout the screen area. One thing about my new plasma; up close, on a white screen, the brightness (Ilight) is even (equal) .. center to edge throughout.

Hello Tom,

Thanks for the introduction to the H31! Always nice to see some screenshot to get an idea of what the projectors can do.

A friend of mine, Daniel from the Netherlands (he's a member of AVS and has posted on the H77 thread), posted 2 screenshots. It's the 2nd 5th Element screenshot with a picture of the professor's face. On the H31 picture the background looks a bit orangy. Where was the H77 looked "just right" with a brownish background.

Was this due to the way the H31 was set up? Can it be turned to give us the same output as the H77 color wise? I did read an earlier thead of yours where you mentioned something about needed to paint something on one of your DaLite screens? Is that your main screen? The Same one used with your H77?

Thanks! :)

Originally posted by gundyrat1
Don't you think Benq dropped the ball when using only a 5 segment 2xspeed wheel where as every other one in this price range and chip resolution is running a 6 segment 4x speed wheel?

Actually, they're taking the same approach NEC did with the 410. It's a different design philosophy that yields some decent results, but I still prefer the color depth of 6 segment, 4X wheel as well.

The screen case has a reflection which lights up the top of the image sometimes. I didn't do any color tuning other than using Avia on the H31. Things do look better live, DVI input it tuned better with less color saturation and it's brighter.

The picture over all looks very similar to the H77 accept for the resolution. :)

About the H30's and brightness uniformity, I had two H30 both that were fine if you displayed a 1 color clip (blue) or a 100ire pattern. Uniformity was very good they rate them at 90%. I have gone up to the screens and the pixels are clear but very faint compared to the H31. There's no light spill on the screen, there is light scatter from the lens if you ceiling mount. Thats not an issue all projector glow light on the ceiling where they're mounted.

Tom: Thank you with comment about uniform brightness across the screen. I guess it will vary from projector to projector somewhat. And 'Projector Central' just got one of those with brightness that was not that uniform. A person could always return it if he was unlucky.

Many projectors have poor brightness uniformity. It is one of those artifacts difficult to see. The brain sees brightness logarithmically - so a slight drop-off will be integrated by the eye/brain into a flat field.

The same psycho-visual trait is responsible for the people that buy Da-Lite High Power or Stewart FireHawk that say - what viewing cone? They don't see any drop-off at even extreme angles. Even though they have a very significant drop-off.

It takes a side-by-side comparison for your brain to notice that there is brightness uniformity issues.

RPTV has horrible brightness uniformity/angle - worse than any projector or high gain screen. So this is hardly anything new to technology



Now shading uniformity of an LCD - is very noticeable as the psycho-visual system is an excellent color comparator.

Also focus uniformity of cheaper lenses - very noticeable.

Newbies eventually learn to put not much stock in Projector Central reviews. It is a dealer referral site designed to direct you to projectors that their dealers want to (and can) sell. Ever notice how recent reviews have proclaimed all projectors need a scaler - and a certain new model scaler to boot?

I never buy (or not buy) from reviews/opinions of others. But, it is a starting point. I always get my choices down to 2-3 items and. then, if possible, use it in my home for 2-3 weeks. There is no such thing as 'the best' in anything you buy. But I do not want cons that I will notice directly..such as fan noice. Whether a projector has contrast number of 1500 or 2000, I could care less. Besides, I will be using projector in darkness. What I am saying you try to eliminate the products that whose imperfections you will surely notice. This, of course, will be different between different people. Bottom line, there are cons I can accept and some I can not accept.

By the way, my new Panny plasma display...On a white screen the light..to my eyes..remain same brightness center to edge all way around.

plasma displays have the highest brightness uniformity. You need to drop a couple notches for FP, and a few more for RPTV. You will be dissapointed comparing any FP to a plasma on that spec.

Brightness uniformity: To me it doesn't matter that a Plasma would even be 100% perfect brightness uniformity, 'cause to me most all (except the very expensive) Plasmas suck compared to even my lowly H30 projector.

And the suckiness comparison isn't due to the Projector having a bigger image, I actually only project a 55" wide image because I have a small room and I'm only 9-10ft away from the screen, but that 55" image is soooo much better than almost any plasma I have seen. I think you would have to spend $8,000+ on a plasma to have...to me...as nice as an overall image quality.

Bottom line, you have to take all pic quality issues into play, it all matters: Resolution, color pop, smooth and deep black levels, 3d depth, blah, blah, blah...

Overall, I would never buy a Plasma at today's prices. Maybe if they came down 50% in future, I might consider replacing my little 27" CRT TV.


Fleaman

Originally posted by guitarman
[B]The screen case has a reflection which lights up the top of the image sometimes. I didn't do any color tuning other than using Avia on the H31. Things do look better live, DVI input it tuned better with less color saturation and it's brighter.

The picture over all looks very similar to the H77 accept for the resolution. :)


Hello Tom,

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that because of the screen frame reflection lighting up the top of the image it would make the image appear different from how it really looks? Orangy even? As in the case with the 2nd 5th Element screenshot with the professor. Or that you had simply not done any real tuning just short of using the Avia dvd...and that THIS was what lead to the orangy looking background with the H31 screenshot?

Are you using the same screen for your H77? I'm just curious to know why the background looked so much more "right" with the H77 screenshot.

Thanks! :)

Fleaman: And to each his own, my friend. But I would never say your FP 'sucked'. That is dumb to say. this is all pretty much opinion. I paid $2100 for my Panmny plasma and, right now, it looks great on Sunday afternoon HD football. I can see good (and some bad) in all methods of displaying an image. We are blessed to have so many good choices these days. I am now here to try to decide about a front projector display.

Originally posted by mangopony
Fleaman: And to each his own, my friend. But I would never say your FP 'sucked'. That is dumb to say. this is all pretty much opinion. I paid $2100 for my Panmny plasma and, right now, it looks great on Sunday afternoon HD football. I can see good (and some bad) in all methods of displaying an image. We are blessed to have so many good choices these days. I am now here to try to decide about a front projector display.

Of course, that was just my opinion.

But, when you do get a nice projector set up, project an image the same size as your plasma and let us know who the overall winner might be.

I'm betting on the Projector.

Of course, the projector isn't that practical for use as a daily tv watching, like a plasma can be. That's why I watch tv on my $380 27" crt tv.

BTW, if your Plasma wins on the pic quality overall, I'd like to know which one you have, 'cause for $2100, I'd be real interested in getting one for myself:D

Fleaman

Flea..shall let you know my friend..overall..which I like better. Believe I will like both, actually, We will use our plasma for evening network HD shows, etc. And we will use the projector for HD sports, DVDs. We watch 80 percent HD these days with some DVDs. I sort of prefer the movies in HD over satellite. Saw Commander' and 'Samuri', lately, and preferred it over DVDs of same.

Magopony,

I assume you don't have an hidef plasma? For $2100 it must be std def....

I got my H30 mainly for dvd watching. Don't have hdtv capability (well, not paying for it on my cable and I live in hills, so reception is out of the question). Some of the SD movie channels can look pretty good and watchable on the projector, but still not nearly as good as a well done dvd movie.

Fleaman

flea. Go out and see for yourself or go over the plasma part of this Forum. I was going to buy a HD Panasonic plasma (I had the money). I viewed many different displays over months. Finally, decided between 2 sets. One was HD and one was ED. Viewed them both at home, at different times as I could not take both home the same time. Meantime we had a Sony HD at home..34 inch direct view HD display. Well, we compared and compared. Our desision, we bought the Panasonic TH 42PWD7UY because it looked slightly better on DVDs and SD (a closer match..480P and all). The Panny has great blacks, etc. But on resolution, at 12 feet plus, the Panny ED looked just about the same as the HD sets and our Sony was in same room with same HD content for several days. Bottom line, EDTV displays look very close to HD sets at 12 feet plus. to HD displays sitting closer but only, maybe, 10-15 percent, I would say. This same thing probably happens with front projection displays as well. As I said, everyone should go out and 'see' and judge for themselves. Sorry, for straying from front projectors for a moment here. But, I believe, my point is valid. Look for yoursellf and decide. Take nones' word.

wonder if this would respond well with a ND filter to tone down it's brightness

My head is about 9ft away from my screen at 55" wide (2x screen width).

The diagonal width varies depending on aspect ratio of course.

Not sure what the width of your 42" plasma might be, maybe 38"?

I can't go 12ft back, my back wall is 10ft from my screen. But, for std def (cable/tv), would it matter? How does it look from 9ft away, compared to a normal crt tv?

Sorry for straying a little OT.

Fleaman

Everyones' vision and thought-process is somewhat different. I am the guy who prefers to sit far back in theatre while I see others in front row, looking up at a sharp angle. It is trade off, actually, For most, a EDTV will look just fine at 12 plus feet from screen on a plasma on HD content. 10-12 feet is a sort of gray area. Closer than 10 feet, a person begins to see more resolution (sharpness) on a HD set showing HD content. On the other hand, for most , DVDs and SD begin to look better on a EDTV set over a HD set under 10 feet. A 42" plasma HD is a poor buy at $1500 over a EDTV display. On the other hand a 50 " HD display begins to be a good buy at $2600 over the 42" plasma set. There are no 50 inch ED plasmas far as I know. Bottom line, buy the EDTV 42" or the 50" HDTV in a plasma. But, of course, everyone should decide for himself, after much leg work and viewing, which is, in fact, best for him and his budget. Promise to be back on subject next message.

Originally posted by gundyrat1
wonder if this would respond well with a ND filter to tone down it's brightness

After viewing this thing for a week, i'm use to it. You don't need an ND filter with this one. The brightness is just right, what I should hv said on day is it's a contrast cannon.


Dark7pt1
About the pictures, all were taken at the same time live all the scenes look great. Should't try to dissect to much from a screen shot. Just try to get an overall impression from the whole group,

Hi Joe. Glad to see you 'round these parts again.



mike& tom i am very happy to be back here ( home ) for my self to get away from the hustle and bustle of life for a while :) and now that i am in a new city and a more laid back atmosphere maybe i can start doing some damage here and get some new client tell up here ;) , and also people that want to see how fp looks and works ect... , will get a great appreciation of how beautiful an fp setup can look when done properly .....



ps ,,,,,,, i honestly missed all my friends here on the forum and also you guys , :)

Well if you run across some buyers that want the bargain. Show them an H31. It is very much like the H77 (without the res). Colors and blacks are near the same, except for the color red, it's better/deeper with the H77. The H31 may have an edge on brightness. I think the dark segments on the H77's wheel tame down the brightness some.

So if they want the super cheapo deal the H31's the one to get.

Tom: The only thing is it will have to be priced at $1299 list, same as Infocus 4805, if they want to gain any sales from Infocus. You can already buy the 4805 for less than list, of course. $1399 will not be low enough for the h31. By the way, looked at an Epson 10 today for same list as Focus. One thing for sure it is build better than some of these other projectors at same price. And it looked pretty good to me.

Ok, what is the deal. When I try to bring up pictures..'page can not be displayed' comes up. Guess I am the only one, yes?

So, Tom, the brightness and contrast specs are: : ..and is it native 16 x 9? and I do realize numbers are a relative thing. They all lie some about specs. I know it is 480P. No pricing yet, huh?

Originally posted by mangopony
Ok, what is the deal. When I try to bring up pictures..'page can not be displayed' comes up. Guess I am the only one, yes?

you mean the pics at the first page. I also tried got the same message. I thought zonealram is the culprit. I guess not. I am able to see pictures in other threads but notthe one in the cigarbest.com

Mupi: glad I am not the only one!

My website's out so I pulled the latest. I just posted a known picture and it was no go, be back.

IMO the H31 is better than the 4805. :)

Fan noise/throw ratio/zoom
Any idea what the numbers are for those.

Originally posted by mangopony
So, Tom, the brightness and contrast specs are: : ..and is it native 16 x 9? and I do realize numbers are a relative thing. They all lie some about specs. I know it is 480P. No pricing yet, huh?

To start with they're rating it 3000.1 in contrast. It will probably do very in contrast tests from what I'm seeing here. If the H77 came in at 2800.1 at D65 that the H31 s/b close, they look about the same.

Well, if the 3000:1 is close to right, then everyone else is wiped out under...$3500, yes? Contrast is much more important than brightness numbe . All of these projectors are bright enough in a dark room and that is where they should be viewed. May have found my first projector!
What is weight (The heavier the better) . When it is heavier, the quality is better. Also, noise rating..db..27 would be great! anything below 30 is good.

Most specs will be like the H30, it's the same case. Funny but the first thing I noticed was the H31 was a little heavier than the H30. Fan seems quietier also, prob about 28/27db's in econo.

Ya, the h31 should be quiet. Hey, saw a nice projector today..prices same as 4805 but LCD. Ya, I know most here like DLP. But this was very nice and held up very well with more expensive projectors in a hi end shop. Very well built for price and weighed in a 9 pounds. New bulb only $200. Specs are fair but picture is really very good. Epson Home 10+. And it is very quiet. Right over my head and I could not hear it.

Tom, You said Optoma h31 is 16 x 9 native, yes? The h30 is 4 x 3 native as you know. I would only buy a 16 x 9 for DVDs and for HD. and the new h31 is a 480P machine ..yes?

Probably nice but after Home Theater mag did it's shootout they said it has the same drawbacks as most LCD's, blacks and more important detail in the blacks. Like can you watch the opening of Master and Commander and actually see what's going on, or are you going to be mad and cursing the video screen. :)

of course, DLPs and LCDs have their fans. I am leaning toward DLPs. But, at times, I think I can see rainbows...Of course, I think I saw rainbows today in the Epson LCD!..I know, impossible!

Originally posted by mangopony
Tom, You said Optoma h31 is 16 x 9 native, yes? The h30 is 4 x 3 native as you know. I would only buy a 16 x 9 for DVDs and for HD. and the new h31 is a 480P machine ..yes?

Yes it's a set 16.9 chip with the dimple fix which gives the best blacks. It's a 1.1 pixel match for DVD's 854X480p res. You use the DVI input which will 1.1 pixel match with no overscan with a Bravo D1 like I use, or pc. I have a few DVI pictures but my server guy is holding me up. :(

well, seems my warm bed (and wife) are saying..."come to bed"..so..nite all.

I shall party on!

Ok while I'm still online, sites back up.

Three new shots done with the Bravo D1/DVI
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31riddick1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31riddick2.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31riddick3.jpg

More impotant here's a look at the new special aspect features/menu's
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31menu1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31menu2.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31menu3.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31menu4.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h31menu5.jpg

Tom, sorry if you already answered this, but the offset is pretty extreme on the H31, no? I have a 7'6" ceiling...

Thanks,
Steve

Originally posted by guitarman
IMO the H31 is better than the 4805. :)

--- Uh Oh , now you did it Tom ...

--- How is it better ? [ please explain without all the Optoma Marketing behind it ] .

--- And how can you honestly A-B compare the two since you have not seen the 4805 since it was new to market ?

--- Please do not mis-understand here , I have no doubt that the H31 is a fine unit and certainly has the ability to match the 4805 but I am interested to hear how it surpasses it exactly .

--- If InFocus were to loan you a 777 would you then like the 4805 :D , sorry man but the Optoma [ and now NEC ] marketing engine is getting a bit overdone IMO . I guess they have a great new tool to use for marketing their product on AVS ... bribe an established forum member with free demos . I am sorry for being so blunt here Tom but you really have nothing bad or even constructive to say about any of the freebies that you demo [ or is it just that they are all the best of the bunch ? ] .

--- Sorry for sounding a bit harsh , I do not mean to offend but I am bothered by the way this marketing is pulled off in order to suck in the unknowing masses .




---------- Jason

Nothing much but I liked the colors of the H30 over the 4805. The colors on the H31 are even better. that's it

But be happy with what you got, I'm sure you'll be fine. At this point the only time to think about upgrading is to get a higher resolution. I mean no need to upgrade just because the colors may be a little more pleasing. enjoy :)

Oh and ditch all that marketing bs, lighten up. Didn't you think I gave a fair assessment of the NEC HT510 and 410?

Originally posted by Steve James
Tom, sorry if you already answered this, but the offset is pretty extreme on the H31, no? I have a 7'6" ceiling...

Thanks,
Steve
Just measured my setup. It's 15" on the offset for no keystone. That's with a 106" diagonal screen, pj lens is back 14', with still more room to zoom in and out.


'

Originally posted by guitarman
Nothing much but I liked the colors of the H30 over the 4805. The colors on the H31 are even better. that's it

But be happy with what you got, I'm sure you'll be fine. At this point the only time to think about upgrading is to get a higher resolution. I mean no need to upgrade just because the colors may be a little more pleasing. enjoy :)

--- While I agree that the H30 has more natural looking color than the 4805 the 4805 is still the more accurate of the two [ if the H31 colors are similar to the H30 then I suspect once again that they are not accurate (which certainly is not to say that they look bad on the H30 - they don't) ] .

--- I am very happy with what I have and that had nothing to do with why I was asking :D .

--- I am just seeking some honest opinion beyond the marketing hype . It seems that any more all the new PJ's get hyped to no end and the real world results are leaving people scratching their heads [ like the mighty AE700 hype machine ] .

--- All I am saying here Tom is that you really need to bring the negative aspects along with the positive or your wonderful reviews/screen-shots will begin to fall to the wayside once people start seeing how this marketing scheme is really working [ free demos = great review on the webs largest HT forum ] . People like me will never get free demo units to review because I state the cons as well as the pros [ even on the units I own ] . A little honesty goes a long way if you want people to continue to respect your opinions [ and I do not mean the unknowing masses that fall under the 'hype' spell ] .

--- We all know that you know what you are talking about and that you have some valuable PJ experience that most here do not have so please do not think that I am trying to say you have no idea what you are talking about [ I most certainly am not ;) ] .


----- Best Wishes ,
-------- Jason

DaGamePimp,

I agree with some of your reservations but do not think that the reviews Tom posts are overly glowing. The H31 "should" be better than the 4805 since it is over a year newer and they have a bar to shoot for.

There was nothing glowing about the HT410 and HT510 reviews he posted and he stated that the 4805 beat the 410.

Given the price tag on these new machines it is hard to go wrong and I appreciate the fact that Tom is out there providing some comparisons.

Originally posted by DaGamePimp
[B]--- While I agree that the H30 has more natural looking color than the 4805 the 4805 is still the more accurate of the two [ if the H31 colors are similar to the H30 then I suspect once again that they are not accurate (which certainly is not to say that they look bad on the H30 - they don't) ] .


If you agree that the H30 has a more "natural looking color" are you not in fact saying that it's more "accurate"? :) To me an "accurate" picture is "natural" looking. Not with over exagerated reds for example. Maybe you could clarify what you meant for me (us)?

Thanks! :)

problem here is.,.most everyone sees 'natural' in a different light. Natural to one person may not be natural to you. Best thing, to choose for yourself what is most natural and most pleasing to your senses. It is your money and your choice. Same thing applies in music. What is most natural sounding speaker system? Just a matter of opinion. I still prefer and use valves (tubes) in my audio system and still use 2 channel. To me this is most natural and, certainly, most pleasing. To each his own in sight and sound.

"I am just seeking some honest opinion beyond the marketing hype . It seems that any more all the new PJ's get hyped to no end and the real world results are leaving people scratching their heads [ like the mighty AE700 hype machine ] .

--- All I am saying here Tom is that you really need to bring the negative aspects along with the positive or your wonderful reviews/screen-shots will begin to fall to the wayside once people start seeing how this marketing scheme is really working [ free demos = great review on the webs largest HT forum "

This will be my last responce on a defence. The first thing I said about the H31 is the screendoor is much more noticable and saying this feels kind of stupid, so last responce.

DaGamePimp, I agree with the concept of your post, we should not be getting too much "marketing hype" on the forum. However I strongly dissagree with the way you formulate your point and the facts that you are stating in your comments.

I just bought a NEC ht-510 a week ago, most of it based on Tom's reviews, and I am very satisfied. I certainly did not buy it because of the "hype" Tom has created. I mean, he clearly stated that the contrast/black and colors were not as nice "to his eyes" has the H30. However, he was nice enough to post some screen shots for all of us to take our own decision based on our own judgement. I personnally found the colors of the NEC410 nicer and more natural "to my eyes" than the H30 even if he does not think so. I think colors and our perception of it are what is important here and we are very lucky that Tom is one that takes the time to post screen shots here. The ideal situation would be for Tom to get all the projectors that exist and have him take the same screen shots with the same screen, same camera, same settings... This way, it is for us to make our own decisions even if he puts a bit of "marketing" into it. A lot of us don't have big shops to go demo all these units so this forum in a very useful tool.

Anyway, this is just my opinion. I think yours is fine but I also think you are not fair with Tom on this because as far as I can see on the forum, his contribution is MUCH appreciated by a lot of people, marketing hype or not!

Cheers.

Again, the only way to buy..to spend your money..is to tert drive..so to speak..several projectors that you have concluded are the best for you at a certain price level. You may have to make a concerted effort to see these projectors but do give it a good try even if you have to drive aways. The reviews, comments, and opinions stated here are a beginning point. Use them as such..no more and no less. If you can not see a product, because of lack of time, then just buy a product such as Infocus 4805 or Panasonic 700 or the Sony at $3000 plus. The consensus of opinion move toward these products as being among best at a certain price level. And, certainly, you can not go far wrong. However, the best way to buy is to go, to see, to compare, and to decide.

I think most people that lurk here, myself included, are a little more knowledgeable than the average HT enthusiast and can discern between marketing hype and good reasonable reviews. That said, I believe Tom's reviews and responses are fair and reasonably balanced. His reviews, screenshots, and opinions generate good discussions. Isn't that the whole point of AVS?

Demoing these units in person is difficult when they aren't available locally (seeing the 4805 in action at Costco in a fully lit room is not my idea of a demo) so you try to get as much information as you can from this forum.

I'm following the 4805, H31, and HT510 threads very closely. If anything most of the hype comes from very happy owners giving glowing reviews of their projectors. I think that's great. Do you research, buy what fits your budget and taste and enjoy watching movies on a really big screen.

If my H30 was cherry picked for me by Optoma, I would probably have very little to complain about. Of the 3 H30's I've dealt with, there were some pretty big differences in QC and all had pixel uniformity issues due to differences in the optics. Granted, it was difficult to observe the optics issues from a normal viewing distance, but it was easy to see the screen boarders were not all sharp on some sides.

I think I offered to trade my H30 + extra cash for Guitarman's H30 at some point!

Guitarman didn't take me up on that offer. Good thing too, as he would of got a buzzing, un-uniform pixel/focus H30 and I would got a real nice H30 that apparently had none of these problems.

I'm still willing to trade btw.

Fleaman

Tom

I think all DaGamePimp is asking for is to be a little more clear with negative reviews.

I like John @ Integrity HT's reviews - he always clearly lists the PROS and CONS side by side of every projector in the shootouts. This helps people understand what is important to them and decide which direction to go.

I do appreciate your reviews since even dealers do not get freebie access to demos as yourself. It helps me decide which ones I should look at or not - it helps that I have been reading your posts for a while and now how to read between the lines.

The new H31 sounds like it fixes most the criticism I had of the H30 (they still have not moved the calibration controls from screen center based on your pics). So clearly stating CONS is never a bad thing. The good manufacturers listen, the bad ones leave their blinders on.

Dark7pt1, mangopony

There is a clear difference between accurate objective and natural subjective colors.

The sad truth is that both ATSC and NTSC chose color primaries that are not natural. In both systems it is impossible to produce a Coke Red, or a Washington Green, or an Indigo Blue.

Since Primaries are mixed to produce Secondaries, and all the other colors - having accurate colors that match the standard is important to produce what the video mastering engineer saw on their monitor.

Sure you can make a Washington Green very dark and saturated like it should be. But that means that your Banana Yellow will look a little green.

Recently one of the AV mags reviewed a small direct tube TV - and found it amazing that the color primaries were dead on - and they raved about it. Until one sees such a display - you have no idea how badly colored everything else is.

If anyone is interested in how displays measure up - I encourage reading Cine4Home.de reviews - they do a good job in this regard.

Tom,

I hope you get a ColorFacts Spectradiiometer for Christmas. Having an objective source that explains your subjective comments is a good thing.

My comments were not meant to offend anybody here and I tried to keep my point straight forward without sugar coating anything so I guess I deserve the responses that I did [ sorry , it was not my intent to upset anybody ] .

--- My point in all my blabber is that the 'Marketing Scheme' that is being done here is obvious [ at least it is to me ] and I would not want for anybody to buy blindly based only upon such 'Marketing' .

--- One very big point to make [ again ] is that nobody should buy a PJ based upon screen-shots [ they should never be taken as basis for a purchase , they are simply for fun and to give a basic idea ] .

--- With that said I will apologize to Tom [ Sorry Tom ] and anybody else that I may have offended [ Sorry ] . This was nothing personal after all .

---------- Jason

NEC baby

Even Tom said don't buy based on his screen shots - I find it amazing that you did. There are certainly too many variables - his camera and it's calibration, your browser, your monitor and it's calibration.

I found one of Tom's colorbars screenshot horrendous - I know my display chain is calibrated - but only pointed out to Tom to check his chain. He said he did not run AVIA - that was out of the box. Which means nothing can be gained about the projector - either it produces Cyan as Green(doubtful) - or his DVD player voltage levels are wacked (more likely)

I sold the last CF for $1500. First I'll ask if he wants to dump it back. Otherwise I like the price I saw at Molori, it's less that I thought $2400. Different sensor from the one-eye but I've seen it in action and like not having to keep doing dark readings. :)

I got no other bad info about the H31 other than the SD is more visible. I just found out it has a stronger bulb, they went from a 180 to a 200watt.

" --- My point in all my blabber is that the 'Marketing Scheme' that is being done here is obvious [ at least it is to me ] and I would not want for anybody to buy blindly based only upon such 'Marketing' " -

Having met Tom, and having seen both the H30 and the H77 he had, and compared them both to my NEC HT1000 which I brought with me, I can tell you that this isn't " marketing hype ". Tom is a projector enthusiast like many of us here and he truly likes these machines, just like he did the NEC HT1000 - which I bought sight unseen after reading several glowing reviews on the web ( not his - hadn't found this place ). These are machines however, and some may need calibration or not be perfect to begin with. My neighbor bought an H30 after I told him about my impressions of Toms, and it has worked great ( a few glitches - but he runs the thing 8 hours a day ).

Originally posted by DaGamePimp
My comments were not meant to offend anybody here and I tried to keep my point straight forward without sugar coating anything so I guess I deserve the responses that I did [ sorry , it was not my intent to upset anybody ] .

--- My point in all my blabber is that the 'Marketing Scheme' that is being done here is obvious [ at least it is to me ] and I would not want for anybody to buy blindly based only upon such 'Marketing' .

--- One very big point to make [ again ] is that nobody should buy a PJ based upon screen-shots [ they should never be taken as basis for a purchase , they are simply for fun and to give a basic idea ] .

--- With that said I will apologize to Tom [ Sorry Tom ] and anybody else that I may have offended [ Sorry ] . This was nothing personal after all .

---------- Jason

lol, no replys in 45mins, you guys really know how to turn a thread cold, Just an observation. Nothing shifty going on here. There's no marketing scheme lol

If I got something that's junk to me I'd say so and have in the past. Thx for the apology though.

guitarman,

If you want to measure primaries to see if your subjective observations match objective measures - the spectroradiometer is the only one to get.

I would not use it for pro calibration services - but thinking about it for reviews. The other sensors either primary drift or cannot even read saturated color (as you know from my .sig review). They only QA the other sensors for D65 accuracy not primary accuracy.

Thx, guess I should look at the package where you get them both. I'll email my buyer also he got the one-eye but also picked up the spectro.

You want to know the best thing about the H31? This I can tell you this with certainty without having ever laid eyes on one - its debut has apparently dropped the price of the H30 at least $ 300.00 - which opens up this great hobby and the joy of home theater to that many more people - which in turn will swell our ranks in the future!! A bit off topic, but thanks for listening!!

for arguments' sake, let us say the h30 and 4805 are equal overall. Then, 2 things remain..built quality..(weight)..and ...cost! Some of these new projectors are just getting too lite in weight to suit me. If nothing else, I prefer a nice heavy case around the inner-workings. If the Optoma h31 is priced higher than the 4850, it will not sell very well. The Optoma h30 is probably a very good buy right now..at $1000.

//correction, meant to say H31 in first sentence above.

mangopony,

As long as manufacturers reduce cost by using their portable projector cases for their budget HT models - you will not see an increase in weight. The last thing a marketing dept wants is a portable projector with increased weight - so I think plastic cases will continue to be the norm.

Besides you can make the case out of lead - and it will not change performance one iota.

Magnesium cases are something that would improve heat conduction - but I think regarding lamps that conduction is too slow - convection is required. Besides Magnesium is also fairly light casing itself.

I fail to see the point that weight=quality. Pride of ownership that you bought a hunk of metal - yes I can see that.

I have always preferred weight to my products, whether they be a tube amp or a quality loudspeaker. Even prefer a heavy car over a lighter car. I do know the trend has been toward lighter products for a long time now. But I do not have to agree with that trend. I just bought a Cambridge 540d dvd/cd player and it is all metal with a very handsome front..and controls that 'snap' when they are engaged. Some of these players..about same price..weigh in a 4-5-6 pounds. This player weighs just over 10 pounds, same weigh as the Denon 2910 which sells for $600. The Cambridge Audio sells for 50 percent of that. Which all proves very little..but, hey, I do prefer a company that still tries to put a little weight (quality perceived, at least) into their products. Again, what I say here on this Forum are my views..only. And I do respect the views and comments of others. If we all agreed there would be no Forum. By the way, saw the Epson Home 10+ yesterday and it looked very good against much higher competition. It weighs about 9-10 pounds and it is bigger than other similarily priced products.

Oh if it wasn't so easy as to just buy the heavier product.

Power amps and the like I can see more coloration to heft.

Heavier cars might give a little more security (as in safety) than a lighter car, but all things being equal, the lighter car will out perform the heavy one on the road in all ways.

I've gotten over the heavy=quality issue a while ago. I was quite surprised at the light weight of my H30, but the thing was designed to be portable, even comes with a carrying case. The one benefit, I was able to use a cheap light weight speaker mount to mount it on my ceiling. If I were to upgrade, say to a Benq pe7800, I'd have to get a real projector mount that could handle it.

Besides, if you really want a hefty projector, look no further than a CRT projector! Be prepared to mount that to a strong cross-beam and have a few people handy to help...or a lift.

and that is what makes the world spin..difference of opinion..and a good thing it is. By the way, a girl I know just got in an accident. Her car was heavy; the other car was light. It was almost head on and the driver of other car was drunk. Bottom line, the police on the scene said the heavier car (more steel) probably saved her life. I saw the 2 cars; the other car was totaled. Her car is being repaired and will be back on the road. Which, in itself, proves nothing. Afterall, this is my view about weight. I go back a long ways when many things weighed more. A lot depends on what we have grown up with. And I can appreciate the others' opinion.

Originally posted by mangopony
the police on the scene said the heavier car (more steel) probably saved her life.
Ok, had to jump in here, but there's very little truth to this myth. The protection a car offers has mostly to do with how well it absorbs the energy of impact without transferring it to the passenger compartment, and not merely with how much it weighs. Frankly, your classic American hunk-o'-metal does quite horribly in this department, unless its front happened to be designed--back then mostly purely by accident--as a decent crumple zone. In fact you will find that many modern Japanese and European compacts have much higher crashworthyness than your preferred hunks of metal. A favorite means to finish off its driver of many of the grand lands yachts was by impaling him with the steering wheel. To be honest, many of the modern compacts are really not all that lightweight, just smaller. But the weight is nowadays distributed where it makes sense, as highly energy absorbing crumple zones.

Unfortunately the myth of weight=safety partly helps perpetuate the ZIP-code sized monsters on American roads which endanger all less well-endowed vehicles (as well as their own drivers) through sheer size. And because of that, I don't think a preference for these vehicles is just a difference of opinion. The US government has closed more than just one eye to the inadequacies of SUVs in particular for the sake of the economic benefit of the Big Three in the face of massive import competition. Eventually I hope sanity and a certain sense of reality will return.

The police arrived right after the accident; I did see the cars later on. No comparison, the smaller car was twisted and a total waste. The heavier car had damage but not as much as a person may think from a head on accident. The police DID make the remark about the heavier car probably saving the girls' life. Of course, this is one incident and proves nothing. Every accident is different. But, as for me, I still want lots of steel around me instead of plastic. It is opinion because this is my opinion. And the observation of the police arrivng at the scene that night. I shall let this matter rest and respect others' right to disagree. Back to projectors.

Originally posted by mangopony
By the way, saw the Epson Home 10+ yesterday and it looked very good against much higher competition. It weighs about 9-10 pounds and it is bigger than other similarily priced products.

I did a comparison review with the H30, Home 10 and the BenQ 6100 on another website (don't want to break any rules by linking to it here) and the Home 10 was a solid third. It's a decent LCD projector for the price, but the blacks and color saturation paled in comparison to the H30 or 4805 IMO. I don't see that the 10+ would add enough to change that conclusion. I imagine I'd have the same opinion regarding the H31.

Mike: And, of course, we all have our opinions here. But against more expensive units (including its' expensive brother) it gave up little on HDNET programming and it was much less in price. I imagine the 4805 is better but, then, the Epson can be bought for $300 less. That makes it a good value. Granted, in stores, we never know how projectors are set up and so on. But the source material was very good from satellite. For the very low cost, I thought it was a decent projector and should get a mention now and again on this Forum. Afterall, we hear about many of the same projectors day after day. Just to give a little equal time to another option.

MikeSRC,

HT mag did that similar review last summer - was that you? Same conclusion - H30 topped the others.

Fyi, the offset for me is exactly 13.5 inches from center lens with no keystone, PJ back 14' from a 92" wide screen. 13.5" is a moderate common offset.

Tom,

Any update on MSRP or ship dates?

Originally posted by fleaman
My head is about 9ft away from my screen at 55" wide (2x screen width).

The diagonal width varies depending on aspect ratio of course.

Not sure what the width of your 42" plasma might be, maybe 38"?

I can't go 12ft back, my back wall is 10ft from my screen. But, for std def (cable/tv), would it matter? How does it look from 9ft away, compared to a normal crt tv?

Sorry for straying a little OT.

Fleaman

I have the same plasma that Mags has. I sit about 7 ft away from it and i would agree that you lose about 10% from a similiar HD plasma. Now when i stand up and move behind my chair at about 9 ft i can see no difference. Before i had a 53 inch Pioneer HDTV rear projection set and I sat about 12 ft away from that. IMO the Panasonic from 7 ft is better. it just may be that its smaller and the picture is bound to be better.

I agree that in almost any light controlled situation that a PJ like the 4805 or H31 would stand up well to any plasma the advantage is that you can go to a 100 inch screen and its still stands up well to my 42 inch. I am looking for a PJ as well to go into my converter garage for my home theater. The 4805 Nec 510 2000 700u and z3 are all contenders but l love the look of DLP so for me its between the 4805 510 and the H31

Originally posted by mangopony
Mike: And, of course, we all have our opinions here. But against more expensive units (including its' expensive brother) it gave up little on HDNET programming and it was much less in price. I imagine the 4805 is better but, then, the Epson can be bought for $300 less. That makes it a good value. Granted, in stores, we never know how projectors are set up and so on. But the source material was very good from satellite. For the very low cost, I thought it was a decent projector and should get a mention now and again on this Forum. Afterall, we hear about many of the same projectors day after day. Just to give a little equal time to another option.


Mags,

The 4805 IMO has a better pq then the current range of Hd resolution LCDs that are in the marker. The hitachi and panasonic and sanyo. I have seen them side by side and in allmost every circumstance the DLP based PJ produced a more realistic image. The only case lacking was true HD where these LCDs shined. Again it was similiar to what you have experienced with your plasma though a 10% gain in PQ.

If your even considering going HD and doing it with a LCD please get a 720p machine. You will regret it if you dont.

I

Seems the Optoma h31 will have a difficult sales road if it is priced higher than the Infocus 4850. I would imagine the 4805 now has a good sales lead on Optoma 30. Overall, the specs (just a relative measurement, I know) favors the 4805 over the h30, but, ever so slightly. . Slight weight advantage goes to Infocus. But, of course some people believe the ligher the better so we will call that a wash. Past reliability, not knowing to much about this, we will call a ..wash. Now, the newer H31 may have some specs slightly different than the H30. Anyway, everything considered, it comes down to price. Optoma must meet the $1299 list of Infocus to gain any sales on them. Not that they will, but a price of $1199 would gain them sales. But, then, this may cut into profit to sharply. I do not know. Most likely, Optoma will price same as Infocus at $1299. To price the H31 at $1399 would cut sharply into their sales (and profits). You will be able to buy them both a a slight discount. If Infocus can continue to improve their PQ with their next generation projector, they will really cut into sales of everyone, even the $2000 projectors, in my opinion.

And, as most everyone knows, that 10 percent difference fades when you view a EDTV plasma display at 12 feet plus..compared with an HD display. I know, because in my home, we have that set up now. And the HD set is one of the best..Sony HD 34" direct view. I imagine, with any EDTV display, as you step back, the difference between an EDTV and HDTV display fades..fades..(when viewing HD programming) .The beauty of it is that a EDTV looks somewhat better on SD and DVDs so it is a win..win situation. And, of course, you also win big on value.

By the way, guys..Several weeks ago, I knew zero about FP (having a direct view HD and EDTV plasma at home). I want to thank you all for the education these past weeks. I realize I still have much to learn. It is amazing how very much some of you guys know. Again, my thanks. I am convinced, at this time, the real value in FP is around $1200+. I have viewed as many projectors as possible in stores (not so easy as viewing plasmas of course). Each year, now, we are seeing increased PQ and I can not see spending anymore than $1200 at this point. I believe, with 3-4 years the expensive projectors (above $3000) will loose much of their value. In 4 years, the $1000 projectors of 2009 may be on a par with a $3000-$4000 projector of today. In fact, even now, a projector such as the Infocus 4805 comes close in some respects..to my eyes, at least. Yes, $1200 is where the most value lies.

Optoma is hoping their extra aspect features will be liked by potential users. I make use of the 2.35 panoramic feature, plus when I'm viewing 4.3 I like to use the larger 1.66 aspect, with OTA 1080i that's 4.3 I use the 1080i expansion for a larger image. I use the edge mask also for OTA. Some may prefer leaving these aspects alone but it's nice to have the options.

No word on price, I did here certain top dealers already received some. Which ones I don't know.

edit:
X out the no word on price. This just in! $1299

Wow. Pricing is getting really agresive on FPs.

Just think what you'd have had to pay only a year ago for an H31. Or an H30!

At least $3,000.

Amazing.

Kras and Guitarman,

I'm down to a H31 or an Infocus 4805. I'll be viewing mostly DVDs in a light controled room. Whats you take between the two. I have not had a chance to review either but want to buy soon.

Thanks,
Copter

Originally posted by mangopony
By the way, guys..Several weeks ago, I knew zero about FP (having a direct view HD and EDTV plasma at home). I want to thank you all for the education these past weeks. I realize I still have much to learn. It is amazing how very much some of you guys know. Again, my thanks. I am convinced, at this time, the real value in FP is around $1200+. I have viewed as many projectors as possible in stores (not so easy as viewing plasmas of course). Each year, now, we are seeing increased PQ and I can not see spending anymore than $1200 at this point. I believe, with 3-4 years the expensive projectors (above $3000) will loose much of their value. In 4 years, the $1000 projectors of 2009 may be on a par with a $3000-$4000 projector of today. In fact, even now, a projector such as the Infocus 4805 comes close in some respects..to my eyes, at least. Yes, $1200 is where the most value lies.


I agree if your talking about DLP. DLP at this price point is so much better then LCD it really has to be seen to be believed. The only real advantage for most of us on from the higher rez pjs is for computer use. I may still wait though to see if one of the big boys can put out a DLP that is 720p like the LCD panasonic Sanyo and Infocus. If they can get it to that same price point I will jump.

I don't give technical reviews of projectors I have not measured. My technical comments on the H30 are contained in my .sig review. Extrapolate from that what you think the delta improvements to H31 are. I am not an Optoma dealer (like MikeSRC) nor a favoured reviewer (like Tom) - so unless we have another local shootout with an H31 contributor - I don't plan on reviewing. So unless DaGamePimp or jeff442 are upgrading not sure that will happen!

All I have gained from this thread is the improved contrast because of widescreen DC2 (match?), and a new DVI/HDCP port (match), and some nifty aspect menus (H31).

Has the colorwheel changed, has the calibration changed? I dunno!

I do know that Tom's favorite argument of "I like 4:3 over 16:9" is no longer a difference!

$1299 list for Optoma. The company is wise. Now, the 2 top machines (most likely) can battle it on a level playing field. Now, it is gonna be a real hard choice! Practically, a toss up, I would say.


Copter: Well, the numbers are just about the same on brightness and contrast between the 2. Probably, both sets of numbers are inflated some but, probably equally. Going by the companies' specs, the 4805 gives 4000 hours on a lamp and Optoma h31 gives 2,000 hours (standard); 3,000 hours (economy) The H31 has a 180 watt bulb and the Infocus ranges between 160-200. This makes me ask..does the H31 have an economy mode? Noise levels on the Optoma is 30-32 so the H31 must have an economy mode as well. I believe the noice level on 4805 about same, maybe a touch higher. Do not have figures. As mentioned before, the 2 very good protectors are 'right on' It is useless to try to find much difference in their specs. The logical way to choose between the 2 is to have them both in same room with 2 screens showing same material; both adusted to the best of your ability. But, for vast majority this is not gonna happen. So, seems flipping a coin is about the best way. Or, again, the absolute lowest price. Seems they are the cream of the crop at their price level. There may well be other contenders, of course. Take your choice. You can not lose! A very good situation.

Originally posted by copter17
Kras and Guitarman,

I'm down to a H31 or an Infocus 4805. I'll be viewing mostly DVDs in a light controlled room. Whats you take between the two. I have not had a chance to review either but want to buy soon.

Thanks,
Copter

Only Tom has seen both units in action [ and not at the same time ] , he says he prefers the H31 due to more natural looking color [ from what his response was yesterday on the subject ] . While I would agree that the H31 probably is going to have more natural looking colors [ if it is same as H30 ] however it is not as accurate as the 4805 [ you have to decide what is more important to you as I would bet the over-all image between the two is about equal - and I think Tom agrees here based upon his previous comments ] .

--- Not trying to speak for Tom or kras here , it is just my observation on the subject and I am certain Tom will correct anything that I have stated if he disagree's ;) .

--- Either way you probably cannot go wrong regarding image quality .


----------- Jason

Originally posted by RyanJNielson
Wow. Pricing is getting really agresive on FPs.

Just think what you'd have had to pay only a year ago for an H31. Or an H30!

At least $3,000.

Amazing.

Very true, when I bought the first Z90 it was $3995 and bought an import at xxxx. These projectors are far superior to the Z90.

Again, $1200-$1300 is where the value is, for sure. And, each year, projectors are improving. In a few years, most likely, the $1000 projectors will be as good or surpassing the $3500 projectors of today. So, the best value has to be at the low end today.

And, by the way, the same downward pricing is happening in plasmas and LCDs. Certainly not the time to be putting big money into displays. I paid $2200 for my Panny plasma a month ago and the PQ is excellent.

Kras. Mangopony and DaGame Pimp.

Thanks for you opinions. I'm looking at a 4805 Friday and if it looks good I'll probably order one. The longer throw will work better for my room.

Copter

copter17: Do keep us posted on your adventures in projector land. You can not go wrong with a 4805. I will be buying a 4805 or a h31 after the holidays. I have little time now to go shopping for a projector. Seems this time of the year is so busy.

Originally posted by mangopony
copter17: Do keep us posted on your adventures in projector land. You can not go wrong with a 4805. I will be buying a 4805 or a h31 after the holidays. I have little time now to go shopping for a projector. Seems this time of the year is so busy.


--- Or you are just too busy posting here on AVS to go shopping - lol .

--- Sorry but I just noticed your post count which has been done in about 3 months of AVS membership - WHOA !!! You are a postin' fool my man !!! :D

------ Best Wishes ,
---------- Jason

Mangopony: I will do. I'm flying home to Mpls where a dealer has one on display. Sure would like to have one by Christmans for the family.
Copter.

Ok I can't type. I meant Christmas

So, the H31 has a shorter throw than the 4805?

Which one handles 1080i best?

Pimp: Yes, came to forum 3 months ago and learn a lot about buying a top plasma; bought the Panny EDTV. Then, went to DVD forum and bought the Cambridge Audio 540D..2 great choices it is proving out and a great combo. Now, here in this FP sction in quest of a new projector. have narrowed choices down to 4805 and the h31. You agree with my 2 choices?

Originally posted by mangopony
Pimp: Yes, came to forum 3 months ago and learn a lot about buying a top plasma; bought the Panny EDTV. Then, went to DVD forum and bought the Cambridge Audio 540D..2 great choices it is proving out and a great combo. Now, here in this FP sction in quest of a new projector. have narrowed choices down to 4805 and the h31. You agree with my 2 choices?


--- Well I have not as of yet seen the H31 so my opinion would be based upon assumption only ;) . That said I think you have it down to the 2 best choices for any sub $2k Digital Projector [ 720p LCD's included ] . My opinion here on the H31 is due to the excellent image thrown by the H30 . My only other input here is to be aware of the Optoma build quality as I went through 3 H30's [ Optoma however does have excellent customer service ] . Now all PJ's will have a fair share of build issues/defects/etc. so just consider it as a possibility .


-------- Jason

Originally posted by DaGamePimp
--- Well I have not as of yet seen the H31 so my opinion would be based upon assumption only ;) . That said I think you have it down to the 2 best choices for any sub $2k Digital Projector [ 720p LCD's included ] . My opinion here on the H31 is due to the excellent image thrown by the H30 . My only other input here is to be aware of the Optoma build quality as I went through 3 H30's [ Optoma however does have excellent customer service ] . Now all PJ's will have a fair share of build issues/defects/etc. so just consider it as a possibility .


-------- Jason

Hmmm, even the BenQ pe7800? I've seen them getting to the sub 2k point...

But certainly they are not sub-2k @ manufacture list.

mangopony,

You sound like the sort to move in - see what is hot - then move on. You might want to wait awhile for the first buyers to report on the H31. I would expect it could take a while for comparison reviews to surface.

In the meantime while you are waiting - there are hundreds and hundreds of pages of H30 and SP4805 thread archives to be read.

So you might be hanging out longer in the FP forum than you think!

Originally posted by krasmuzik
I am not an Optoma dealer (like MikeSRC) nor a favoured reviewer (like Tom) - so unless we have another local shootout with an H31 contributor - I don't plan on reviewing. So unless DaGamePimp or jeff442 are upgrading not sure that will happen!


Actually, I'm an InFocus and BenQ dealer as well, so there may be a little 4805/H31 comparison in the future (although I like to wait for the freebee ones from my press meetings at CES). :D

Originally posted by krasmuzik
mangopony,

You sound like the sort to move in - see what is hot - then move on. You might want to wait awhile for the first buyers to report on the H31. I would expect it could take a while for comparison reviews to surface.

In the meantime while you are waiting - there are hundreds and hundreds of pages of H30 and SP4805 thread archives to be read.

So you might be hanging out longer in the FP forum than you think!

You got that right! Look at my forum registration date...that was when the X1 was hot and I was just as hot to get one. But even though there were lots of praise for that projector, some crazy flame wars went on about the potential for rainbows. To me, there was just too high a # of people reporting them and it just seemed like a good idea to wait, and I'm glad I did!

I waited over 1 1/2 years before I finally plunged into an H30. If I would of bought the equivalent of an H30 when I 1st started researching projectors, I would have had to spend $3,500+ easily.

But, I have more patience than most, and tend to be a tight wad:D

Fleaman

Originally posted by MikeSRC
Actually, I'm an InFocus and BenQ dealer as well, so there may be a little 4805/H31 comparison in the future (although I like to wait for the freebee ones from my press meetings at CES). :D

If you can add a BenQ Pe7800 to that shootout, man would that be interesting, to see how much of an improvement it is over the 4805/h31 gang. I know it's a little above the class, but some would like to know if it is worthy of the extra $500 or so over the 4805/h31 camp.

Fleaman

Look at my registration date - 1999 and $15K bought you a 400 lumen 250:1 XGA with RGBW color wheel from Runco (or $5K from NEC). D65 calibration maybe was half that spec.

Business color wheel and jaggie deinterlacing. Fun!

Originally posted by krasmuzik
Look at my registration date - 1999 and $15K bought you a 400 lumen 250:1 XGA with RGBW color wheel from Runco (or $5K from NEC). D65 calibration maybe was half that spec.

Business color wheel and jaggie deinterlacing. Fun!

Ain't it the truth. ;)

Now we're upset at a new projector that might retail for $1500 instead of $1300. Gotta love the progress. :)

Have not decided, for sure, new projector to be an Optoma31. I may still go with the 4805. I have decided the $1200 level is where my money goes; with a screen for $300 and I am in business. It is very difficult to compare these 2 projectors together. And, they are so close in PQ, you must view them at same time to know for sure which one is better..for you. As I mentioned before, I believe either way, a buyer is the winner.

Mangopony,

my $.02 being an X1 owner is that the 4805 noise level can be somewhat distracting if it is similar to X1 levels and increased brightness would be welcome. So if PQ is the same I would gravitate toward the H31.

timctx. Thanks for comment. Although the brightness specs (I know all specs are inflated) are about the same on both; both projectors need a boost in brightness. Their contrast of 2000:1 is very good..even for a $2000 plus projector. Actually, I will be viewing in a dark room so I am sure brightness is ok on both. I have heard the noise level is somewhat high on the 4805. I prefer silence so could be a deciding factor. I am calling overall PQ..the same.

Originally posted by mangopony
timctx. Thanks for comment. Although the brightness specs (I know all specs are inflated) are about the same on both; both projectors need a boost in brightness. Their contrast of 2000:1 is very good..even for a $2000 plus projector. Actually, I will be viewing in a dark room so I am sure brightness is ok on both. I have heard the noise level is somewhat high on the 4805. I prefer silence so could be a deciding factor. I am calling overall PQ..the same.

While I haven't seen either in-person I have seen numerous screenshots (yes I know you can't use screenshots to judge PQ but I feel you still do get an idea...why else do we post em? Heh...) and read many posts/reviews...most agree that the PQ on the H30 (H31 should be simular) is more akin to a CRT projector...more "smooth" and "natural" looking...if that is your preference I would lean towards the H31. I know this is my preference. My only deciding factor really is...Do I go for the H31 and save some money or go for the gusto and get the H77 for the added resolution? Hmmmmm....

In any case, either the H31 or 4805 would be a winner! :)

My 2 cents...

Last Saturday I viewed Optoma h30 and Epson 10+ along with some very expensive projectors..like $10,000. Bottom line, on very good HD programming (DiscoveryHD Theatre), it was a close call..believe it or not..Just sit back a little further than you would normally on HD programming, viewed on a 480P projector, and you will be amazed how good it can look. I do realize what the numbers say but your eyes will not see that difference in 'dots' at a little further distance. I was certainly surprised..to a point. But, then, I have a Panny EDTV and already know how good 480P can look showing 1080p or 720p. When viewing on a plasma, just sit back 12 feet or so. The PQ will be great.

On dvd I agree you get only modest benefit from increased resolution but with HDTV sporting and nature events the increased resolution of high dollar DLP or 720 lcd's is very desirable.

timctx, same debate with no real answer, of course. I have mentioned, on HD content (over the air PBS), last Saturday, viewing a $1200 projector and a $5000 projector and a $10,000 projector, the differences were slight..and this comment came from about 10-12 people who wandered into viewing room at a hi end dealer. The same thing happens with my EDTV Panny plasma. At distance of 12 feet plus, HD content looks about same as the same HD content compared over a HD display..in the same room in my home. The Panny looks great on HD content when viewed at 12 feet plus. Same thing holds true, to my eyes, on front projection when viewed some further away than most people view. I prefer to view displays screen further away than 'average'. Anyway, which proves we all see things differently in this world. Of course, we knew this.

I have always noticed that where FPs are concerned, $1K-$2K more for a competing projector is rarely worth the money. The differences between $1200 FPs and $5000 FPs has never been huge IMO. Sure,the more expensive FPs are usually better- but $2-3-4K better? Almost never.

Some would disagree.

Then again, I don't have money to burn. If I did, I'm sure I'd see things differently!

I am always impressed by the quality of HD programming on the H30. CSI and Football are wonderful. I have seen the hi-res FPs and it's nice, but again, $2K more?? No me gusta.

The key advantage I see with the HD2 is the smooth picture. You can view very close and never see pixels. Figures are rounded out better and this is very noticeable when actors are in the background. The background figure on the screen will have twice the amount of pixels in their silhouette making them appear smooth and more detailed, or less bumpy looking. This is the main advantage I see. Right now it comes at a premium price but things are getting better. Also now Ti has the HD3 or double dimple fix for another step up in blacks & contrast.

But for right now as far as the blacks and colors, the DC2 chip looks very close to it's HD2+ brother. Not on a par but very close.

Originally posted by guitarman
But for right now as far as the blacks and colors, the DC2 chip looks very close to it's HD2+ brother. Not on a par but very close.

Yes. It's going to be interesting at CES to see how the new InFocus 7210 with the DC3 chip looks vs. the 7205.

I got an invite plus guests pass to CES and should be there. I'll wear my AVS/guitarman name tag. ;)

Just was wondering if anyone had any info or experience with Optoma 737. It has 1024 x 768 resolution; contrast and brightness slightly ahead of H31. I know it is for commercial use. Interesting part, can be bought for same as list on Optoma h31. Can anyone tell me why this would not work for home..not that I am going to buy it. Just seems unteresting with specs and price.

mangopony,

Home Theater projectors maximize contrast and brightness while constrained on having accurate greyscale and saturated colors. Business projectors maximize contrast and brightness without constraint. Sometimes the business projectors give access to dial in the greyscale - but then you lose on contrast and brightness, but you can never dial in the primary/secondary colors.

Indeed some business projectors are sold in the home theater market without making any changes - they are bought by the crowd that values pixels and lumens per dollar, and cares less about colors and greyscale. The romance of the bright big movie screen fades after a while - then they start complaining about colors and greyscale - coming to AVS looking how to tweak.

If your primary purpose is computer usage in home - they are a good deal. Most people like to watch DVD's on the big screen though.

Kras: I thought as much. It is just that this 737 was very interesting from its' very good specs and price. I do want a projector that will give me pleasing colors and, just maybe, add a touch of depth on HD programming as my EDTV plasma does. I will be watching more HD than DVDs just because it looks a lot better. I love live sports in HD. And I saw what these $1200 DLP projectors can do last Saturday on HD content and was surprised (to a point) and very pleased. As with my plasma, to me, one of the most important spec is contrast. The more contrast, the more all colors look better. Contrast on my plasma is 4000:1. Some of these latest DLP projections are cracking 2000:1 already. Of course, all specs are inflated so it is a relative thing. The point is, these projectors have come so far in 3-4 years, it is amazing.

Personally I think it should be mandatory for HT market projectors to have two sets of specs - max brightness/contrast and HT/D65 version of same. Runco 'CMS' does this. Infocus 'Video Lumens' does this. Many do not.

If the others did this they would not initially sell as much because the HT specs would be bad. They would actually have to improve design spec if they wanted HT market share - which is a good thing.

Does these PJ have a sealed light engine? I have a concern with dust blobs.

It was not clear to me if the 4805 or H31 could be further back (throw distance) for the same screen width.

Does the 4805 have similar aspect ratios as the H31? I like what was described for the H31, but is that feature unique? If so, how?

Thanks,

I haven't heard from anybody on dust blobs, it's seem to be well sealed up. There's even a glass shield between the bulb and color wheel.

The aspect ratios are unique to the H31.

Until HDTV becomes available through our cable company we will be watching some SDTV on whatever PJ I get. How does the H31 do with SDTV? I'd prefer the 4805 though because of the longer throw range. I know SDTV isn't great with any projector but if one or the other does better with SDTV it may be a deciding factor . . .

The PJ will be used for 50% SDTV (as least for now) 35% DVDs and 15% PS2. It would be nice to watch TV during the day with some ambient light but this is not a big deal since we have another TV in a different room. Any thoughts/suggestions?

SDTV looks as good as it can on the H30, H31 & 4805. They all have excellent scaling. Way better than the PJ's of yesteryear.

"It was not clear to me if the 4805 or H31 could be further back (throw distance) for the same screen width."

I can tell you i'm pretty close to max zoom at 14' back with a 92" wide screen. If I went to minimum zoom maybe I could mount the PJ 2 or 3 feet further back.

pjgirl: Ideally, it is best to have 2 displays. A direct view, plasma or LCD for daytime viewing and a projector for nighttime viewing or for a room where you can control the light very well. I have a Plasma for most viewing and will be getting a FP for special viewing of HD live Sports, HD movies, and programming from DiscoveryHD Theatre, HDNET, etc. I believe the plasma and the projector will compliment each other well. In the 4805 and the h31, I believe, you have narrowed the choices down to 2 of the best under $2000. I believe both of them to be best buys at their price level.

PJ Girl, you may also want to consider that if you use any projector for that much TV viewing you will quickly go through bulbs, which, at around $400 a pop for the H30 at least, is a pretty expensive way to go. Also, even the brightest projectors suffer a lot from ambient light. (I've seen a 2600 projector doing a 40" image on a high gain screen, and that was about the only thing that could SOMEWHAT survive ambient light.)

As mangopony mentioned, it's really best to not have your pj be used for normal tv viewing, even though it will look fine. You can have a look in my gallery for my setup for the H30 and a tv.

Best of luck!

So, I am ready to buy after Christmas. Anyone have any info on date h31 will be available. I am quite sure I shall buy the h31 or the Infocus 4805. I have a new Panny plasma for general viewing. I believe my new projector will fill in just fine for DVD movies and for live HD sports from networks and ESPN HD>

Like I said some dealers already have the H31 for sale. Finding thems the hard part. Put your search skills in play. Ask AVS also

You can't go wrong with the H31. Did you see the screen shots? I took shots with the same setup/camera on the H30, see if you like the difference. I can see it.

Like how about the Titas gladitator shot. Or for that matter any of
the Gladiator shots. :)

H31 not in search engines yet but you can sure get a great deal on a H30..under $1000. As long as I get my projector by Superbowl I am ok. So much to do right now around Christmas would not have much time to view new projector anyway.

guitarman: Have I ever asked you:..Have you ever compared Infocus with Optoma in the past few months? The next generation of the 4805 (probably in Spring of 05) should really be something as far as pq is concerned. Then, again, maybe they will just fix a few minor things like 'fan noice', etc. Afterall, they can not get 4805 too good; who would buy their more expensive projectors?

Tom: I have seen some of your screen shots of h77 and some with the h30. Now, what I would like to see is direct comparison of same shot (scene) on both projectors with same cameras under same conditions. I have seen EDTV projectors (480p) against 720P projectors on very good HD content. And, if viewed from 2.5 times screen width, there is little difference to my eyes. I did the comparision with the Epson line of projectors plus a $10,000 Runco. I have compared your h77 shots with h30 shots and saw little difference. But, it might be somewhat better if both were on 'same page' so a person could make a very quick comparison. There is no doubt which is the best value.

Tom: come to think of it, use the h31 for comparison.

I did say that the H31 mimics the HD2+ machines in blacks and 3D effect. HD2+ machines? well people pay up for the smooth as glass look/no screen door and the added detail in all images, plus the low dither in blacks. But I could enjoy the 3D effect,blacks/colors of the H31 also, especially at the low price. :) You guys are on the right track, dollar per quality of image these can't be beat. The H57 will be an in between budget model that s/b killer also. Hope to get a look at that one in week or so.

Originally posted by guitarman
SDTV looks as good as it can on the H30, H31 & 4805. They all have excellent scaling. Way better than the PJ's of yesteryear.

If 4:3 SDTV is the deciding factor, H30 is the best choice.

H30 displays 4:3 at 800 x 600

16:9 480p projectors display 4:3 at 640 x 480

H31 can display 4:3 at 640 x 480
or
685 x 480 with 3.5% of its top and bottom image cut off.

True, a nice combo for SDTV would be a 100" 4.3 screen and the H30. You'll get full screen fill on SDTV 800X600res, HDTV will be 480P scaled, DVD will be 480p.

Originally posted by yauwing
If 4:3 SDTV is the deciding factor, H30 is the best choice.

H30 displays 4:3 at 800 x 600

16:9 480p projectors display 4:3 at 640 x 480

H31 can display 4:3 at 640 x 480
or
685 x 480 with 3.5% of its top and bottom image cut off.

For me I'd rather have a native 16:9 projector with SDTV.

My SDTV cable signal/pic quality is never as good as DVD and practicaly all DVD's are widescreen of some sort. I'd rather have the SDTV 4:3 image be smaller than my DVD image as it looks better due to the lower pic quality that I get through SDTV cable.

I have a H30, but when ever I upgrade, it will certainly be a native 16:9 projector of some sort.

Fleaman

Fleaman, As I understand it, the new h31 is native 16 x 9. How do you like PQ with your Optoma?

Originally posted by mangopony
Fleaman, As I understand it, the new h31 is native 16 x 9. How do you like PQ with your Optoma?

Yup, the H31 is 16:9. I would prefer it to my H30 if anyone is up for a trade(+ a little cash)? But I doubt I will sell my H30 just to get a H31, more than likely when I upgrade, it will be for something further up the projector stluz, like a Benq pe7800. When I bought my H30 there were no native 16:9 projectors in this class for me to look at.

PQ with the H30 is great, although I wish Optoma paid attention to QC better (I've already addressed this earlier in these threads).
Customer service is tops, I just wish I didn't need a reason to call it.

mangopony: Unless you want to spend hrs onto weeks to calibrate your projector (if an Optoma), I would guess that the 4805 might be a better bet for OTB calibration, they seem to be consistent and have very good OTB calibrations according to many well respected members of AVS.

I've never seen an infocus 4805 in action, but would like to compare it to my H30 in the departments of brightness/focus/pixel uniformity, dark scene ditherings and overall contrast performance. If anyone has compared them 2 on these points in particular, I'd like to know your thoughts!

Fleaman

Originally posted by fleaman
For me I'd rather have a native 16:9 projector with SDTV.

My SDTV cable signal/pic quality is never as good as DVD and practicaly all DVD's are widescreen of some sort. I'd rather have the SDTV 4:3 image be smaller than my DVD image as it looks better due to the lower pic quality that I get through SDTV cable.

I have a H30, but when ever I upgrade, it will certainly be a native 16:9 projector of some sort.

Fleaman

Signal is why I'd recommend a 100" diagonal 4.3 screen. You're right cable SDTV is soft compared to Direct TV. I have cable right now but this week I'll hook my Direct TV back up and use cable for the tube TV's that are all over the house.

From what I remember standard cable has a res similar to VHS around 200 lines. Digital Satellite is over 300 lines or closer to 400.

fleaman. Will take my time in deciding between h31 and 4805. They are both very close in all the specs (numbers) and in PQ (comparing with h30). It comes down to other things besides the very good picture on the screen. Such things as reliability, time to set up properly, noise, company response, and life of bulb.

Originally posted by fleaman
I've never seen an infocus 4805 in action, but would like to compare it to my H30 in the departments of brightness/focus/pixel uniformity, dark scene ditherings and overall contrast performance. If anyone has compared them 2 on these points in particular, I'd like to know your thoughts!

Fleaman

There's krasmusik's comparison review and I had some comments on the two when I had them together, but I think that's buried in the H30 thread. Some of Tom's comments about the H31 apply here as well. The 4805 is brighter than the H30 (as is the H31). I don't remember any specific differences in the other categories, although I believe the 4805 has a slightly tighter focus.

I saw the Infocus 4805 and 7205 setup at Magnolia today. I can say for sure I like what I see with the H31 over the 4805 and I really like what I see with the H77 over the 7205. Just a way better picture imo.

Maybe they didn't use Avia or the stewart screens weren't a good match. But this isn't a minor difference I'm talking about here.

Best to get out and see these projectors and compare before you buy.

Originally posted by guitarman
I saw the Infocus 4805 and 7205 setup at Magnolia today. I can say for sure I like what I see with the H31 over the 4805 and I really like what I see with the H77 over the 7205. Just a way better picture imo.

Maybe they didn't use Avia or the stewart screens weren't a good match. But this isn't a minor difference I'm talking about here.

Best to get out and see these projectors and compare before you buy.

Tom,

You're comparing projectors setup at Magnolia to stuff at your house?? Come on!!!!

I completely agree with your assessments on how great the H77 is.... but you have to see both in the same setups or in more controlled conditions before drawing any conclusions on the two units.....

I've had a 7205 and the H77 setup in head to head shootouts here several times. the H77 outclasses the 7205 in the contrast department and depth to the image as a result. But there is no denying that the 7205 is much brighter than the H77 and that shows up in a big way on a big screen.

The 4805 outclasses the H30 in every single way, imo. Contrast, black level, depth to the image, color rendition, everything... The H30s that I've had here required a LOT of calibration and still weren't right (I agree with the assessment that the greens are too green and it hurts the color balance for the secondary colors, etc..

I'm very curious to get my hands on the H31 and look forward to comparing it with the 4805.

I've got a Mitsubishi HC900U on the way as well. I'm really looking forward to spending some time with this unit. In addition, there is a Sim2 HT300e in the near future for me as well... that'll be interesting to see how it compares with the H77....

Yeah I know it wasn't fair comparing home to a video store, but that's the way it went. I felt there wasn't much hope at getting these to come up to the standards I was seeing on the H77 & H31. I may just be hooked on the Optoma look, can't wait to see the H79 HD3 I heard today they'll have one at CES. I may have to upgrade again. I'm ready :)

Originally posted by guitarman
I saw the Infocus 4805 and 7205 setup at Magnolia today. I can say for sure I like what I see with the H31 over the 4805 and I really like what I see with the H77 over the 7205. Just a way better picture imo.

Maybe they didn't use Avia or the stewart screens weren't a good match. But this isn't a minor difference I'm talking about here.

Best to get out and see these projectors and compare before you buy.


--- UGH !!!

--- Here we go again ... "But this isn't a minor difference I'm talking about here" and "I felt there wasn't much hope at getting these to come up to the standards I was seeing on the H77 & H31" .

--- Ok , I am zipping it this time so I do not offend anybody ;) .


---------- Jason

I can see we are pretty well divided on which is better..4805 or h31. That means to me, whichever one a person chooses is the 'right' one. There can be no loser.

Ah thegamepimp, enjoy your 4805 at least you got the jump on the H31. Just like the H30 jumped out in front suppling a RGB/RGB low priced SVGA w/DDR.

Benq is comming out with a Dark Chip 854X480 but I wouldn't worry about it.

Originally posted by mangopony
I can see we are pretty well divided on which is better..4805 or h31. That means to me, whichever one a person chooses is the 'right' one. There can be no loser.


--- Pretty much , which is why comments of one not having the hope of coming to the standard set by the other is just ridiculous [ and I mean this going either way as I do not think the 4805 would eclipse the H31 either ... in other words I am not BIASED I am just truthful ;) ] .


-------- Jason

Originally posted by guitarman
Ah thegamepimp, enjoy your 4805 at least you got the jump on the H31. Just like the H30 jumped out in front suppling a RGB/RGB low priced SVGA w/DDR.

Benq is comming out with a Dark Chip 854X480 but I wouldn't worry about it.


--- Enjoying what I have is not the point as even if I owned another brand I would still find the bias within your comments . This is not a battle of 4805 vs. H31 after all , at least not in my eyes [ obviously others appear to be fighting for a cause ;) ] .


---- Jason

It's not battle, just what my eyes tell ME. Not fair though I'm the only one that's seen the H31, give it time.

Originally posted by hometheaterdoc
Tom,

I've got a Mitsubishi HC900U on the way as well. I'm really looking forward to spending some time with this unit. In addition, there is a Sim2 HT300e in the near future for me as well... that'll be interesting to see how it compares with the H77....

I look forwards to your report from your shootout with the Sim2 HT300e and the H77. Hopefully you can provide screenshots too! Maybe post the pictures one under the other for a direct comparison of the same frame of the movie...

Keep us posted! :)

I'd be interested in a view on the HT300e and H77 or H79 for that matter. Mainly because it's said the Seleco is bright which is a change for them. Color wise the Seleco's have always been great. Until I saw the Optoma H77 I thought they had a lock on the color Red. :)

Hello, Tom. I'm a newbie here.

I want to buy a PJ to mostly view DVD(80%) in a dark room. I want the best black/contrast under $2k. Now I need to decided between H31 and SP4805.
Which one of them has better black/contrast? The H31 MSRP is $200 more. Is it worth the difference?

My aim is to get a picture close to my CRT TV.

I could also get PE7800 and Sharp XV-Z201E. They are 576P, good for my HD movies. But I don't know how good their black/contrast is compared to H31.
Their spec is 2000:1 and H31 is 3000:1.

Thanks a lot.

The pictures I posted give a very good rendition of what I see in colors and contrast. I think it's awesome to get this kind of quality for such a low dollar. When I saw my first 4805 it looked very good also but it's been some time and I'd really have to have them in the same setup to decide which one looks best.

riddick05

black levels and contrast are not the same thing

You can have a 100 lumen projector with 1000:1 contrast - it has the same black levels as a 1000 lumen projector with 10000:1 contrast. Or they may have different black levels if the projector setups with screen size/gain do not achieve the same brightness.

black level is lumens divided by contrast in other words.

You need to seek out home theater reviews that provide two of the three measures to figure the third. Don't bother using marketed specs - they have no basis in reality for HT calibration.

Sadly - you will not find any projector that is close to your CRT. CRT's do not have pixels but they have superb on/off contrast of 10,000:1. They also have horrible ANSI contrast of 100:1 due to floating black voltages - but they have superb ambient light rejection capabilities.

Digital projection is something different entirely than direct view CRT.

riddick< I do not believe the h31 will be retailing $200 more than the 4805. I have decided, overall, they are about equal and that is the way most of the public will see it, I believe.

They told me $1299. In general dealers hold tight on the initial release so finding a discount could be tuff. Allot of buyers pay what ever they have to to be the first around to use the new projector. Like with the Sony HS51

and, if the Optoma is listed at $1299 and you can buy the 4805 for less, the Infocus will continue to outsell Optoma. If, in fact, the public sees the 2 projectors as 'equal' then the actual pricing must be about the same. Bottom line, if I can buy either one for same price, I may consider h31. If I can buy the 4805 for $100+ less, then the 4805 will be the one I buy. I, for one, will not pay more for being one of the first to try a new projector. In fact, many times, it is best to buy a projector near the end of its' production run. Many of its' problems may have been corrected during the year and you will. also, get the lowest prices of the year.

riddick; And never get caught up in the numbers game for it means very little. I found this out back when solid state amps came onto market. The numbers were great over valve amps. I went for the numbers and bought a solid state amp. Used it for a year or so and went back to my trusted tube amps and have been with them ever since. You must see and hear equipment to decide. Do not pay much attention to numbers. And use reviews (opinions) only as a guide to, maybe, narrow your buying range of equipment down some. The final choice in purchasing any piece of equipment is yours totally.

Yep try to get out there and see of hear the item for yourself. After a live view of the H31 you may just end your searching. :)
Happy Hunting!

Just been doing some checking online. Price I have seen on h31 is $200 more than list on Infocus 4805. If this holds, then sales will never get off the ground on a nice new projector. I will certainly buy a 4805 if this $200 difference holds.

Here is a quote from the H31 user manual for letterbox

"Enable the viewing of a 2.35:1 or 1.85:1 movie without black bars at the left and right of the screen. Some of the original image will be lost from the up and down edges of the screen."

Does not make sense to me. Is this a typo. After having seen 2 projectors my humble understanding is that for 2.35 and 1.85 you only get bars at the top and bottom and not at the left and right. I guess for 1.85 the bars are not much noticable because the difference between 1.85 and 1.78 (16:9) isnt that much.

In the case of 4805 the letterbox option works like this. It takes the 4:3 image (SD cable) and crops a bit at the top and bottom and shows the 16:9 portion unstretched. I have seen many channels and I dont find it objectionable because I dont care what is going on at the borders of the image.

Now to convert 2.35 to 16:9 and fill the screen without stretching, one could crop the image at the left and right ends where there is not much major details. I care less what the director intended me to see. I am sick and tired of having to deal with masking so if I lose a bit on the left and right I dont care. I dont pan my eyes all the time left and right to see what is going on at the ends anyway. So as long as I can get the major portion of the movie I am fine.

So what exactly does the letterbox option in H31 do assuming that I am playing an anamorphic DVD and I have set my DVD player to 16:9 and not to 4:3 letterbox. If I play an non-anamorphic DVD I presume it will just put
bars at the top and bottom but what the manual says does not make sense to me.

It says some image will be lost at the up and down edges of the screen. This makes sense only if the first line says "without black bars at the top and bottom". I am thinking who ever typed it just made a typo or my understanding of letterbox has been completely wrong.

Any idea what the diameter of the focus ring is. Will a 62mm filter fit the
focus ring. I noticed that the zoom ring is separate from the focus ring which is nice. I wont hit the wrong ring everytime :-)

The discrete letterbox button will play non anamorphic dvds correctly. They won't be squashed and there will be 2.35 bars. The other aspect features will expand 2.35 anamorphics to delete the bars, it will expand non-anamorphic 2.35's also. These added aspect features will also expand HDTV/OTA and standard 4.3 images to make a larger picture, there will be smaller bars on the sides. Some will expand the bars totally but to keep the image natural they expand from top to bottom also. For OTA 4.3 and standard 4.3 I'll just use a semi larger expand were the image will look natural and I'm not losing too much vertical image.

I'm not home to measure the exact focus ring diameter, get back later. I don't think you'll need a filter though.

Originally posted by guitarman
The discrete letterbox button will play non anamorphic dvds correctly. They won't be squashed and there will be 2.35 bars. The other aspect features will expand 2.35 anamorphics to delete the bars, it will expand non-anamorphic 2.35's also. These added aspect features will also expand HDTV/OTA and standard 4.3 images to make a larger picture, there will be smaller bars on the sides. Some will expand the bars totally but to keep the image natural they expand from top to bottom also. For OTA 4.3 and standard 4.3 I'll just use a semi larger expand were the image will look natural and I'm not losing too much vertical image.

I'm not home to measure the exact focus ring diameter, get back later. I don't think you'll need a filter though.


Filter: so why do you think a filter is not needed. On 4805 I find it a must especially if I am watching on a white screen or even an off white wall. On a grey screen filter is not needed but I still prefer to use it. Because later on when the bulb gets weaker I can remove the filter and still get the same brightness instead of changing the screen or the bulb.


Aspect Ratio:

so when the 2.35 DVS are expanded to fill 16:9 screen, are they stretched
so people look taller and skinnier

(or)

the ends of the 2.35 image are cropped to maintain the aspect ratio
and scaled.

For example lets consider a non-anamorphic 2.35 DVD. It has 640x272. i,e only 272 out of 480 are part of the image and rest are for bars. H31 or any 854x480 PJ will scale 640 to 854 and 272 to 363 and the 2.35 image is now 854x363. The rest 117 are for bars. If it is anamorphic DVD then all 363 lines of image are available so no need for vertical scaling. so only horizontal scaling is required. So far so good with both anamorphic and non-anamorphic.

Now consider the filling part. i.e to take an image 854x363 and fill it to 854x480 without losing the aspect ratio. 363*16/9=645. So crop 209 out of 854 to get 645x363. This is a 16:9 image with proper aspect ratio but some 100 pixels of image are lost at the ends. Take this 645x363 image and scale it to 854x480. There is no loss of resolution nor aspect ratio. Only loss of image. But since a smaller image is scaled i.e from 645x363 to 854x480 the image may not be as sharp.

Is this what is done when H31 fills a 2.35 DVD to 16:9 screen or it just stretches 854x363 to 854x480 in which case people will look tall and skinny which non one would prefer.


A crazy thought. Just like they make 4:3 Pan & Scan where they basically crop the ends of a wider image to get a 4:3 image so that the main focus of the people involved in a conversation is in the 4:3 image, why cant they
make a 16:9 pan & scan. Instead of blindly cropping some 100 pixels on either side they can pan the 2.35 image and pick the 16:9 portion just like they pick the 4:3 image in 4:3 Pan & Scan so the main focus of the scene is not lost. Isnt this a cure for getting rid fo bars. If people hate this and prefer 2.35 with bars they can use the 2.35.

Ofcourse this would need more space on DVD. well make 2 DVDs in the widescreen version. One for 2.35 and one for 16:9 Pan & Scan. 4:3 lovers can buy a 4:3 Pan & Scan version. Or add the 16:9 pan & scan in the superbit

I dont think this is a bad idea.

The projector is bright but comfortable to watch without an ND filter. Blacks and color don't need any help either.

Things will be expanded uniformly, figures will be natural but you'll hv to lose info from the sides for 16.9, or info from the top & bottom for 4.3 material.

Originally posted by guitarman
The projector is bright but comfortable to watch without an ND filter. Blacks and color don't need any help either.

Things will be expanded uniformly, figures will be natural but you'll hv to lose info from the sides for 16.9, or info from the top & bottom for 4.3 material.

you mean lose info from the sides for 2.35?

Just an observation:

To fill 4:3 image in 16:9 without losing aspect ratio (people look normal), the 4:3 image has to be cropped at the top and bottom by 1/8 th of the height

To fill a 2.35 image in 16:9 without losing aspect ratio (people look normal), the 2.35 image has to be cropped at the left and right by 1/8 th of the width

The cropped 4:3 image on 4805 did not look bad at all. So I am assuming the cropped 2.35 would be fine, especially when the heads are not going to be cut as in cropping 4:3 to fill 16:9


SO IN SUMMARY: I do not need a 2.35 masking as I can view all DVD's in 16:9 with people looking normal. Right?

I wonder why 4805 doesnt have this option. it fills the screen but people dont look normal.

Tom
how is the brightness uniformity and light spill on H31. I guess H30 doesnt have even brightness left to right.

X1 had that bright lower left portion and some slight spill around the image

4805 alsol has a brighter lower left portion and the light spill around the image as they probably used the same chasis so there is some light reflection or whatever. 4805's brightness uniformity is better. On a bigger screen the brightness is pretty much unifiom and not as distracting as on X1. Only on a small image like 50 inch I can notice the lower left corner being bright. There is some light spill around the image but if the wall is black this light spill is absorbed. But there is a major light spill from the front grill (front lower right when table mounted) which wasnt there on X1. This has been documented in the 4805 thread. This is a concern if PJ is ceiling mounted as that light spill gets bounced back by the ceiling. For table mounting this is not a serious concern but still I would not like it as it adds that extra ambient light to the room. Covering it with the hand make a lot of difference especially if I have white carpet.

There's light scatter out of the projector for the H30 & H31. Also a halo that projects on the ceiling from the lens. With the H30 the lens cap tames down the halo. I'll try the lens cap on the H31 later. When bringing up a 100IRE pattern brightness uniformity looks good corner to corner. Pixels look distinct also. But more distinct on the H31.