HLPXX63W Owners Thread/Problems/Tweaks/Service Menu/Discretes etc. [Text View]

htwaits

12-15-04, 11:13 AM

I posted this in the General Samsung HLP Issues & Questions (Post all here) thread yesterday. Maybe it will come in handy here.

Originally posted by millerwill
htwaits: Is it possible for you to give a step-by-step 'idiot proof' protocol for going into the SM and making this gamma change? I've never been into the SM and have always been nervous about the idea. But you sound like it's worth it. (Have a 6163.)
Can one idiot protect other idiots? ;)

Here are the "enter-SM" instructions for the HLN sets. They are the same for a HLP set but the contents of the SM and navigation keys are different. I haven't checked all the navigation instructions myself.

Find Samsung Firmware Version:

The firmware version installed on any set is recorded on the first page of the SM. There is a long ID number at the bottom of the page. The last three digits (HLN) or last four digits (HLP) are the firmware version of your set.

Remember that in any dealing with Samsung you are not supposed to know your firmware version.

Record your User Settings for "Picture" before you enter the SM. The HLP sets will revert to factory defaults for the UM when you exit the SM.

Instructions for accessing the Samsung Service Menu:

Anyone using these suggestions should know that the only change I have ever made to the SM is changing GAMMA from the default value to zero. I have never "messed around" in the SM. Remember that there is no reset function. If you see something that looks like one don't use it.

I can recommend, without any reservations, recording all original SM settings before making additional changes.

****** Thanks to LCH. 09/02/2003 ******

Turn Melody off in the user menu (allows entering the Service Menu from power On state without using a lamp cycle).

With the set ON, press Power-Mute-1-8-2-Power in quick succession.
(If the set is already off, just do Mute-1-8-2-Power )

The service menu should appear for the input you were viewing before keying the above sequence. Be sure to give the set enough time to complete the process(30-60 seconds).

While in the service menu, you can change inputs with the TV/Video button to view the SM for other modes.

Use the CH up, CH down & select keys to navigate the Service Menu. Press MENU to return to the main Service Menu after viewing individual functions.

Later, you will use the VOL(+) & VOL(-) keys to change the SM values.

" ... when you access the SM on the HLPxx63 (probably all HLP models), the directional arrows around the "Enter" button control navigation, not the volume and channel buttons ..." MacGyver1970.

To Exit the SM, power off. Leave it off for several(30) seconds. (until all cooling activity is complete)

Example steps to change GAMMA on a HLP5063 with firmware version 1011 and a build date of May 2004:

The SM main menu looks like this.

1. DDP1011 (The GAMMA setting is here.)
2. GM1601
3. DNIe
4. FLI2310
5. CXA2171
6. Vsp9437
7. Upd 64083
8. CCA
9. SP Actuator
10. OPTION (The tally of hours of lamp operation is in this menu.)

Ver: T_ATLNUS_1011 (this is the firmware version)

First record user menu entries for "picture" and enter SM.

Steps from the main SM.

1. Select DDP1011 using the directional arrow keys -- up and down.
2. Enter DDP1011. I used the right arrow key but maybe the "enter" key will work too.
3. Select GAMMA using the up or down arrow key.
4. I entered GAMMA using the right arrow key, but the "enter" key may also work.
5. I used the right and left arrow keys to change the value of GAMMA.
6. I used the up arrow key to return to the DDP1011 menu. Again, the "enter" key or "menu" key might do the same thing.
7. I returned to the main SM with the "menu" key.
8. Power off and wait for a full shut down to save entries that you have changed in the SM.

9. Power on after about 30 seconds and enter your user menu picture settings.

This change to GAMMA makes "some" owners happy. I feel that after setting GAMMA to zero and setting brightness with the DVE DVD that the details in dark scenes were improved. To really get the most out of our set I am getting an ISF calibration done by SethS.

As of 12/14/2004:
Mode = Cinema
contrast = 90
brightness = 45
sharpness = 0
color = 48
Digital NR = OFF
DNIe = OFF

Enjoy.

tjk

12-15-04, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by htwaits
Remember that there is no reset function. If you see something that looks like one don't use it.

I can recommend, without any reservations, recording all original SM settings before making additional changes.

I would further recommend that if you are going to play around in the SM, get the service manual. I got one for the HLP 74 series. It's $22.95 plus shipping from Samsung's parts website, and contains every default SM setting, so you don't have to worry about not being able to reset to default values. It's cheap piece of mind.

htwaits

12-15-04, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by tjk
... and contains every default SM setting, so you don't have to worry about not being able to reset to default values.

According to reports about the HLM, HLN, and HLP models the SM settings may vary from firmware version to firmware version and sometimes from set to set.

I think it's wise to record your SM settings if you plan on changing them in any significant way. I going to do it before and after having an ISF calibration done.

tjk

12-15-04, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by htwaits
According to reports about the HLM, HLN, and HLP models the SM settings may vary from firmware version to firmware version and sometimes from set to set.

I think it's wise to record your SM settings if you plan on changing them in any significant way. I going to do it before and after having an ISF calibration done.

Good point. You could always compare the service manual to your factory settings the first time you enter the menu. At a minimum, it could save you a bunch of writing.:)

I think the service manual is a decent investment for the ~$30 it costs. Of course, others may think it's a waste of time and money.

swest

12-15-04, 02:54 PM

I mentioned over in the general HLP thread that I had a DOA pixel on my new HLP-5063, and that I had notified Samsung and they immediately scheduled the local service provider to come out and replace the LE.

Well, he came today. I showed him the problem and he immediately set about installing the new light engine he had brought with him. After installation, we turned it back on and the black dot was still there!

Turns out it is a defect in the fresnel screen. He tried wiping it off, and even went as far as separating the screen from the anti-glare cover and wiping, and still no luck. It was actually embedded in the fresnel.

It was kind of interesting to see the screen assembly come apart. The two pieces are taped together at the sides and then there are 4 bezels that hold it tight to the box. He took the top, left and right bezels off and then pulled the tape off (carefully, he was expecting to put it back on after an attempt at cleaning between the screens). Then he pulled the anti-glare out away from the fresnel and reached down with some lens tissue. It was kinda scary, but the process didn't seem to be too big a deal. Anyway, it was unwipable and so he put it back together without worrying about the tape and he's ordering a new screen-set.

I'll let you know how it goes.

chinman

12-15-04, 03:25 PM

bump

tjtv

12-15-04, 03:28 PM

anyone ever seen a problem like this?
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~tjhayes/tvprob.jpg

I just had the light engine changed 2 days ago because the tv kept turning off randomly on me. Today it just started showing that pattern of gray bars as soon as the tv is turned on. I can't get it to go away, changing inputs doesn't help, rebooting doesn't seem to help.

OrangeKid

12-15-04, 11:32 PM

tjk

I intend to get the service manual for my HLP5063 but I was going to wait a few months hoping that it would be updated to include the settings in my firmware version.

If you look at the spreadsheet I uploaded the default settings vary from firmware version to firmware version and later versions of firmware have some settings that were not present in earlier versions.

As I recall in the HLM/HLN series of of sets there were some examples posted where the default settings for a given firmware varied from set to set. I think it is best to confirm the settings on your own set before tweaking them.

chinman

12-16-04, 07:57 PM

bump

swest

12-16-04, 11:13 PM

Ok, I finally got some quality time with the 5063. I popped in the AVIA disk to check for overscan... 5% ??? I know that I read elsewhere in the forum to expect this kind of number, but sheesh! Isn't that a little excessive? What's the spec. for this TV say it should be? Does anyone know? The HLM/Ns certainly didn't seem to suffer from that kind of overscan.

Now this is with the TV in 'Wide TV' mode. If one places it in Expand, then you get ~3% overscan. There is a description of the meaning of Expand, but I really didn't get it. Can anyone clarify it once more?

Also, it was quite easy to get into the SM and adjust the Vpos and Hpos. They were set to 30 and 60 and, to center the picture on the screen, needed to be set to 38 and 68... That modification won't negatively affect PQ will it? (it hasn't seemed to.)

Cheezmo

12-16-04, 11:32 PM

Go with expand. When you feed it 720p, expand is the 1:1 pixel mapping mode and also seems to be what the default was on earlier models. I have no idea where they came up with their terminology, but I can understand having a 5% mode as some SD programming will have garbage around the edges at lower overscan levels.

Gojhawks

12-17-04, 07:57 AM

but I can understand having a 5% mode as some SD programming will have garbage around the edges at lower overscan levels.
That is exactly what I have dicovered. I have started using "expand" and it seems to be slightly sharper to my eyes. What is annoying is when I am on a network digital channel which is showing a SD program and I can see bits of garbage flickering across the top. Fortunately it is only on one channel and very easy to switch back to wide.

By the way 5063 owners, keep up the suggestions. I have had mine since late June and finally working at dialing it in. May even get up guts to enter the SM this weekend. We shall see.

swest

12-17-04, 11:54 AM

Yes, yes. Expand. In addition to the overcan with regular TV, I was disappointed that I couldn't put my PC display in TV mode because so much of the PC screen was being lost. After reading about the 'expand' mode, I put the PC display in that mode and was back to the 2-3% overscan I was used to before, and my PC display looks really sharp.

Things are looking up.

w.r.t. the SM, I was in there looking around (on the GM1601 menu) and scrolled through the entries there and got down to ADC Calibration (with sub entries Red_Offset1, Green_Offset1, and Blue_Offset1). I couldn't scroll into the sub entries, so I hit enter (at ADC Calibration) and the values of the sub entries changed!! argghhsh... Before I did this the values were: R1:33, G1:25, and B1:30. Now they are R1:33, G1:26, and B1:31. There is no way to change them individually! If you are on ADC Calibration and you hit a right, left, or enter, the values change (within a tight range) but never go back to the original numbers... What have I done? I wasn't trying to change anything and now I have. I don't even know what the GM1601 controls!

p.s. So far I haven't noticed any catastrophic results from what I did. But now I'll always wonder...

htwaits

12-17-04, 12:04 PM

"looking around"
"fooling around"
"messing around"

All of the above "male" hobbies lead to trouble in the SM. :)

chinman

12-17-04, 12:06 PM

bump

swest

12-17-04, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by htwaits
"looking around"
"fooling around"
"messing around"

All of the above "male" hobbies lead to trouble in the SM. :)
I am properly reprimanded. I'll be more careful. Please don't take away my keys... :)

swest

12-17-04, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by chinman
can someone post/email me their service menu settings and help out a brother who messed his up? i have an HLP6163W (1035) and would greatly appreciate it. ever since i messed with it i am now getting 'clay faces'

chinman@yahoo.com
I am in the process ('you be careful in there' - htwaits) of documenting my HLP5063W(1035), October 2004, using orangekid's excel spreadsheet. I'm not going to have much time today to work on it, and it may not be appropriate anyway since its a '50'63.

Which input did you mess up? I'll get those first.

chinman

12-17-04, 12:57 PM

*bump*

htwaits

12-17-04, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by swest
... and it may not be appropriate anyway since its a '50'63.
The most important factor is to use the same firmware version. I'm not sure there would be a great difference between the HLP5063 and the HLP6163 if they both have version 1035 of the firmware.

As more owners report their OTB SM settings for different models and firmware versions it may turn out that, like the HLM and HLN sets, each TV may have differences.

Also the SM is a major "black box" challenge. During the HLM days it was discovered that the order in which changes were being made to the SM was very important.

When I recorded mine I tried to be careful to use the "menu" button to back up and to never use the right or left arrow once a setting was on the screen.

A good ISF certified calibration should solve all these problems. :)

Good luck.

1Mark1

12-17-04, 02:44 PM

Well my 5063 was made in May I think (5 after X), firmware 1014, and the default gamma was set to 8. Changed it to 0 and I like it, no more white crush at 90 contrast and the slight green tint seems to be gone. Just turned over 3000 hours! SM can be tricky, was checking out the test color and gray scale bars and had a hard time getting out of there. Had to hit menu button to get out of that section. Be very careful in SM for sure. I broke out in a sweat there for a minute.

swest

12-17-04, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by chinman
PRIORITY IS AS FOLLOWS:
1. DVI
2. COMPONENT
3. ANT

much appreciated

chinman@yahoo.com

Check your regular e-mail for the DVI defaults for an HLP5063, October 2004, T_ATLNUS_1035...

p.s. I'll post orangekid's excel spreadsheet when I've finished adding the rest of the 1035 defaults... Probably tomorrow.

Tim Gray

12-18-04, 04:24 PM

Took delivery of a HLP4663W today about noon - everything was fine out of the box, a couple of hours later and on the non-hd channels I get lots of streaking and video noise - same with the DVD. Strangely enough the noise goes away for a second when I hit mute, then it's back.

Component cables.

HD is fine. I'm scheduling a service/exchange call. Anything I can check in the meantime? Don't think it's cable since the same problem on DVD.

bent98

12-18-04, 04:27 PM

I have a HLP-5663W. Nov manufacter and 1035 firmware. This TV has terrible green push. I got it replaced with another. Same thing. I had samsung tech come over and replaced entire light engine. Made no difference. It happens from hdmi, dvi or component. I tried gamma settigns. Anyone having this issue? Please tell me what I should try in SM. I try moving settings with green but they dont do anything on screen.

htwaits

12-18-04, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by bent98
Please tell me what I should try in SM. I try moving settings with green but they dont do anything on screen.
I think you should stay out of the SM. :)

bruce73

12-18-04, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by htwaits
The most important factor is to use the same firmware version. I'm not sure there would be a great difference between the HLP5063 and the HLP6163 if they both have version 1035 of the firmware.

FYI, while perhaps not a great difference, I can confirm that my component SM defaults on my 5063/1024 build (July '04) do contain some differences to those of a 6163/1024 build (August '04) that I downloaded in a spreadsheet from one of these threads a few months ago. There are only a few (less than 10), but they do exist.

EricScott

12-18-04, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by 1Mark1
Well my 5063 was made in May I think (5 after X), firmware 1014, and the default gamma was set to 8. Changed it to 0 and I like it, no more white crush at 90 contrast and the slight green tint seems to be gone. Just turned over 3000 hours! SM can be tricky, was checking out the test color and gray scale bars and had a hard time getting out of there. Had to hit menu button to get out of that section. Be very careful in SM for sure. I broke out in a sweat there for a minute.

I have an April build 5063 with firmware 1013 and gamma was set to 8 as well. Changed to 0 to test it out. Unfortunately the SM automatically puts you into Dynamic as soon as you enter it while I usually use Cinema, so it's tough to see what the Gamma effect does exactly if you have a DVE test pattern on the screen for example.

So far looks pretty good, although it's tough to say whether I like it more or less than before. Will definitely need to give it some time though. Never really felt I had a green tint before but certainly don't have one now.

Can someone describe what effect we are supposed to see by turning Gamma down to 0 (from 8 in my case).

My other picture settings are as follows (Cinema always):
Contrast - 90-95 (95 on my S97 over HDMI, otherwise 90)
Brightness - 50-60 (60 on my S97 over HDMI)
Sharpness - 0
Color - 50-55
DNIe - Off
DNR - Off

chinman

12-18-04, 09:43 PM

bump

EricScott

12-18-04, 09:50 PM

So Gamma has more to do with picture detail than color? For some reason I thought it was a more precise color adjustment than tint for example.

Never really had clay faces before and in general though detail in dark scenes was good. So far so good with Gamma at zero though.

Good may have just gotten better.

chinman

12-18-04, 10:00 PM

bump

Vertigo

12-18-04, 11:03 PM

I have a three week old HLP4663W with 1035 firmware. I do have the green push problem. I noticed the second green color bar from the left to right is so green when showing test color bars from SM and also from HD recorded color bars I have. Modifying Gain and Offset for Green does not make much of a difference at all. I used to own a Mitsubishi 46805 and had it tweaked to perfection. All the colors were perfect and I had good black level. I don't think there is a way to reduce that green tint on this set. The green push is my only concern. I can live with lack of black level. Other than that, no more 64 point convergence grid alignments, geometry problems and those kind of issues associated with RPTV's. I used to spend hours trying to get geometry and overscan right. Could someone post the SM defaults for Gains and Offsets for 1035 firmware on the 4663? Thanks in advance.

OrangeKid

12-18-04, 11:12 PM

It appears that AVS members reporting green push on the HLPXX63 series have firmware 1035. I have not noticed reports from owners with earlier firmware reporting green push. Older Samsungs, particularly HLNs also appear to exhibit green push.

bent98

12-18-04, 11:54 PM

Ive been posting in a few different threads. I have gone threw two HLP-5663W TV's. Both had 1035 firmware. Both have had excessive green push issues. I also just had light engine replaced and still same thing. I am wondering if it has to do with the 1035 firmware. I am waiting to talk to samsung techs supervisor on Mon. I am pissed. $3000+ for this. Man picture looks terrible on dark scenes. You can use a THX test pattern from a movie DVD and goto brightness test. There you will see a grey scale. I have so much green in my greys. There are a few settings in the DNIE service menu that do make a change. You can mess with GAMA Offset B_G I think it is. I adjusted two green offset gama settings. I got rid of alot of the green, and set GAMMA to 0 in other menu. It was better but still not acceptable. I really am at a loss. I dont want to go with SONY Wega because of only 1 hdmi input and if I try to get a 56-85 I cant use my current stand. Anyone else out there have a solution?

Vertigo

12-19-04, 12:18 AM

If this green push issue cannot be fixed, I am thinking of returning this set. I have one week left before 30 days are up. Would downgrading firmware maybe fix this issue?

bent98

12-19-04, 12:34 AM

Best bet is to call samsung and ask if its a know problem. Thats what Im going to do. This is crazy. private msg me your phone or AIM.

OrangeKid

12-19-04, 12:34 AM

I would exchange or return the sets. Something sounds like it is not correct on these sets. One of the things that the the 7th segment of the color was supposed to correct was the tendency for green push in the earlier HLN sets.

My HLP5063 with 1033 firmware does not display any green push. My previous set a HLM507W did not exhibit green push. After a firmware upgrade to HLN innards, however, it did exhibit green push that I was mostly able to eliminate by adjusting settings in the service menu with help from AVS members. Unfortunately no one with ColorFacts or the equivalent has stepped forward and to analyze the gray scale and publicly post their service menu settings. Several AVS members did so for HLM and HLN sets which was a great help for those members that did now want to invest in a ISF calibration.

millerwill

12-19-04, 12:48 AM

I agree that something must be wrong. I don't see any problem like this in my 6163 (had it since August).

bent98

12-19-04, 01:13 AM

I went through 2 sets and now a light engine. So really thats 3 light engines. All with 1035 firmware. Its either a issue with that firmware or a defect in manufacturing with latest light engines. I also have a friend who has a HLN and had green push but did adjust it out in SM. This on the other hand shouldnt have to be adjusted since it has the 7 color wheel. I am sure the guys who do the ISF calibration have an answer. Could someone please respond back and let us know if they have the green push and have a fix for it in SM or at the very least confirm they have 1035 firmware and don't get the green push.

RED_C_COEFF
GRN_C_COEFF
BLU_C_COEFF
RED_B_COEFF
GRN_B_COEFF
BLU_B_COEFF

I was able to tone down green by lowering the GRN_B_COEFF and GRN_C_COEFF and setting it to GAMMA 0, But still not good enough.

As a side note just for information purposes. When the tech replaced light engine today he did say that there is a updated light engine which I did have and also a updated balist for lamp which I didnt have. The new engine had both which I currently have now, however I think picture is less sharp the the orginal light engine. Ofcourse the Green push is stronger then ever.

Vertigo

12-19-04, 11:49 AM

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I have decided to return to my set today. This is my second set by the way. The first one had the three blinking light problem. It turned out that the light bulb was broken inside. It's too bad because other than those issues mentioned, this is a great set. I am going to have to research now another 46 inch set. I have a custom made entertainment center that was
originally intended to fit the Mits 46805 perfectly. This way all you could see was the screen. The HLP4663W fit perfectly. I really did like the amount of inputs on this set as well. I could use the DVI for my HTPC to Radeon 9800, HDMI for SA8300HD DVR and component for future XBOX. Oh well. On a side note, I did try the COEFF settings and did very little for the green. Just look at the second green color bar. That excessive green does not go away no matter what! :(

bent98

12-19-04, 11:54 AM

You can always go for that Sony KDF-42WE655.

htwaits

12-19-04, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by OrangeKid
I would exchange or return the sets. Something sounds like it is not correct on these sets.
I agree. I had a May/1011 HLP5063 and exchanged it for an October/1035 HLP5063 and haven't seen a green push on either one.

Cheezmo

12-19-04, 01:13 PM

I'm seeing the phrase "green push" thrown around here and wonder if that is really what people are talking about.

"push" has been commonly used to describe color decoder errors. i.e., if you set the color and tint correctly using blue as a reference, most TV's these days would show red being too high, viewing color bars with a red filter. The red is pushed, hence red push.

But I think people here are talking about grayscale problems.. Watch a black and white movie. If that appears to have a green tint to it, you aren't talking about color decoder errors, you are talking about a grayscale that is too green.

Can those of you talking about "green push" clarify if you are talking about grayscale problems or color decoder problems?

Vertigo

12-19-04, 01:28 PM

Thanks for your comments Cheezmo. Would that explain the second green color bar being too green? More than the other three? I remember when I had my 46805, you were able to correct all three colors by SM and using color filters. That second green bar cannot be changed at all no matter what. Look at picture attached. It's not a very good picture since I put the green filter in front of my digital camera.

EricScott

12-19-04, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by chinman
go into the SM and under 1. DDP1011 - Gamma <-- change this setting and notice changes on the fly - choose optimal setting

I know that you can see changes on the fly, but what I am saying is that as soon as you enter the SM, the set goes into Dynamic mode. I prefer to use Cinema mode, so you can't really see changes on the fly b/c as soon as I get out of the SM I go back to Cinema. If the SM would just leave you in the Picture Mode you had selected then you could see changes on the fly but it doesn't.

Am I missing something?

Watching the Jets game on Fox HD and it seems like the field is a little granier than it used to be. Wonder if this has anything to do w/ the Gamma change. Tough to tell b/c every field is different, etc.

OrangeKid

12-19-04, 01:32 PM

htwaits:

Why did you exchange your 1011 firmware set for one with 1035? Does the new one show an improved picture? Why didn't you upgrade to a 74 series?

Cheezmo:

I was talking about gray scale problems.

Tim Gray

12-19-04, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Tim Gray
Took delivery of a HLP4663W today about noon - everything was fine out of the box, a couple of hours later and on the non-hd channels I get lots of streaking and video noise - same with the DVD. Strangely enough the noise goes away for a second when I hit mute, then it's back.

Component cables.

HD is fine. I'm scheduling a service/exchange call. Anything I can check in the meantime? Don't think it's cable since the same problem on DVD.

Some more details - when the set is powered on, it's ok for about 30 minutes then the streaking starts. It's only on the 480i (normal and wide) formats. Even in 480i, if I go zoom 1 from the STB, the streaks go away - funny, if I go zoom 1 from the TV they are still there. Taking the 480i options off the STB configuration works - but the "normal" SD format is stretched - it's watchable - fine actually, but I'm still going to get it fixed.

Cheezmo

12-19-04, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by OrangeKid
htwaits:

Why did you exchange your 1011 firmware set for one with 1035? Does the new one show an improved picture? Why didn't you upgrade to a 74 series?

Cheezmo:

I was talking about gray scale problems.

And Vertigo is talking about color decoder problems. That is why I wanted to clarify things.

Vertigo,

I need to know what the order of the color bars are on the pattern you used. You have to be mindful that your filter is not perfect. As you can see, you see a bit of "green" in the blue and magenta bars also, since blue leaks through your filter. Since Cyan contains green and blue, it should be brighter than the green and yellow bars (which have no blue), but should match the white bar (as it does have green and blue).

So, if the two brighter bars are white and cyan, what you are showing may not be too far off.

As I've said previously, given the variations from one firmware version to the next each one of these needs to be taken on a case by case basis, with test patterns and patience to figure out out to get things tuned just right.

htwaits

12-19-04, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by OrangeKid
Why did you exchange your 1011 firmware set for one with 1035?

I had some minor audio sync problems, smudging down the both sides of the screen, and there were reports that the earlier firmware didn't support a discrete command for HDMI. None of them big problems but since I had the offer of an exchange I took it.

Does the new one show an improved picture?

With the 1011 set I changed the gamma setting from 6 to 0 and used DVE to set brightness. That got me good detail in dark scenes.

The new (1035) set came OTB looking as good as the 1011 after my minor tweaks. I've left gamma alone at 2 and contrast and brightness are still the OTB settings.

I use Cinema with all sharpness and edge enhancements off or set to zero.

Why didn't you upgrade to a 74 series?

The price difference and extra bulk were the main two reasons. I tried several times to get my wife to say that the HLP5674 case was so pretty that she had to have it even though it was bigger -- no luck. :(

My main interest is DVD movies and I am happy with the HLP5063 PQ for film. Maybe in the future I will ... :rolleyes:

Vertigo

12-19-04, 02:38 PM

Thanks for the follow up Cheezmo. The color bars I used, are from HD test patterns that our local WB stations broadcasts every Friday. I am attaching the color bars without using the green filter so you can see the order of the colors. I also want to mention that red is perfect. Blue is a off a little and I noticed that changing blue offsets and gains does not make much of a difference as well.

EricScott

12-19-04, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by htwaits
I had some minor audio sync problems, smudging down the both sides of the screen, and there were reports that the earlier firmware didn't support a discrete command for HDMI. None of them big problems but since I had the offer of an exchange I took it.

htwaits,

Does the new firmware support discretes for HDMI? I have firmware 1013 and can't get the HDMI discrete to work. I thought I heard reports that the newer firmware (not sure which version exactly) actually supported less discrete codes than older versions.

htwaits

12-19-04, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by EricScott
Does the new firmware support discretes for HDMI? I have firmware 1013 and can't get the HDMI discrete to work. I thought I heard reports that the newer firmware (not sure which version exactly) actually supported less discrete codes than older versions.
I have no way to test it but there have been reports in the HLPxx74 thread of it working. I'm just hoping for the future. :)

bent98

12-19-04, 07:05 PM

In response to cheezomo I am talking about a guess a grey scale issue. But it does effect the over all picture. It is really bad when you are in dark or blue scenes. I will see if i can take a picture of what it looks like. Dont know how well its gonna come out.

bent98

12-19-04, 07:40 PM

Here is THX test pattern. As you can clearly see alot of green in greyscale.

Vertigo

12-19-04, 08:20 PM

OK, I did not return the set today. I have until Jan 7th according to the 30 day return policy. I ended up with an almost perfect blue and red and so so green. I am now using the following settings:

Dynamic
Cool2
Contrast: 90
Brightness: 45
Sharpness: 0
Color: 38

Color Weakness: On
Red: 3

These settings give me bright cyan and white bars and are pretty close in color when using green color filter. Still not perfect. I will keep trying.

bent98

12-19-04, 08:44 PM

Can you post a picture of your greyscale?

Vertigo

12-19-04, 09:02 PM

Here is one. I have no green like you. Picture did not turn out that good.

Vertigo

12-19-04, 09:05 PM

Which pattern are you using? I am using Avia's gray needle and pulse pattern.

bent98

12-19-04, 09:41 PM

try using the ones off THX optimizer on movie dvds. Green shows up more there then AVIA. I used toy story.

Vertigo

12-20-04, 12:03 AM

bent98, I will post picture later. All my DVD's are stored in a box right now. I was able to play AVIA from my storage device that has some of my movies ripped from my DVD's.

After looking at darker scenes in Dynamic mode, I did notice a pinkish tint on dark scenes. I turned off Color Weakness and it is a little better. That setting only lets you do one color and not the others.

Cheezmo, what are your thoughts on this?
The green is almost 15% on color decoder test pattern.

Cheezmo

12-20-04, 12:31 AM

I would try seeing if MATR_CBG and MATR_CRG can be used to get the green color decoding balanced (NOT for any grayscale issues). I would use the "Gamma On" parameter to isolate green instead of using a filter. Can't make any guarantees, but that is what I would try.

As always, write down your original values and be especially careful adjusting Gamma On since if you set it to 7 it turns all the colors off and there will be no picture if you accidentally exit the service menu or lose your place without immediately changing it back. Values between 1 and 6 should isolate the individual colors and their combinations.

EricScott

12-20-04, 09:51 AM

How do you get upgraded firmware-does a technician need to replace my digital boards? There are reports in other threads that the HDMI discrete code works in v. 1035. Given that discrete codes are a listed "feature" of the HLP series I think I should be able to get an upgraded firmware version to use them properly.

Is there any reason that I wouldn't want to upgrade? I currenlty have 1013 (April build / purchased in June) and am happy with my PQ.

bent98

12-20-04, 11:08 AM

I have 1035 firmware and yes the HDMI code does work on my remote.

Cheezmo. After looking at my picture what do you make of it??

Cheezmo

12-20-04, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by bent98
I have 1035 firmware and yes the HDMI code does work on my remote.

Cheezmo. After looking at my picture what do you make of it??

It is really hard to tell with a picture like that (how well calibrated is the display on my laptop, what influence does your camera have, etc.). It does look like there is some green "blotchiness" in the gray pattern. If DNiE and Digital NR are off, it seems like that may be a player issue or indeed something wrong with the TV. How was the DVD player connected to the TV?

bent98

12-20-04, 11:31 AM

DVD is HDMI hookedup HDMI, SAT (DVI), XBOX Component.

You can see that green in greyscale on all inputs. Not a DVD issue.

But this is 2nd tv and 3rd light engine.

timclark

12-20-04, 11:44 AM

All
Several comments were made concerning the use of the expand option to limit the amount of overscan. Using component and DVI input, I don't seem to have an expand option available. Is this something unique to the 5063 and larger sets?

Thanks
Tim

swest

12-20-04, 12:02 PM

Did you go into the menu, or press the p.size button to get to Expand?

I'm using Expand mode on both DVI (from my HD931) and PC inputs on a 5063 (which is part of your question) with firmware 1035...

When Cheezmo first mentioned the Expand mode I seem to recall thinking that I hadn't seen that option (while stepping through the p.size choices.) But then I went into the menu and went directly to the size option, and there it was.

I now have a better looking PC display than I had with the HLM507W (and I remember people complaining that the HLP5063 <didn't> look as good as a PC display... go figure.)

Cheezmo

12-20-04, 12:11 PM

Expand is only there for 720p (at least on my 5063). I just assumed it would be the same for the others, but you know what assuming does...

swest

12-20-04, 12:16 PM

Yes, my HD931 is set to 720P output, and my PC's video card is set likewise...

htwaits

12-20-04, 12:46 PM

My HTPC is outputting 720p over DVI and I get "Expand" using the "P. Size" remote button. That was true with a HLP5063 version 1011 and a new one with version 1035.

From what I've read anyone who doesn't see "Expand" is probably inputting something other than 720p.

timclark

12-20-04, 01:17 PM

Thanks for the tips. I can check this with my D* input over DVI. My DVD is still 480I over component so that may be why I don't have the option there.

htwaits

12-20-04, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by timclark
My DVD is still 480I over component so that may be why I don't have the option there.
Right.

Vertigo

12-20-04, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Cheezmo
I would try seeing if MATR_CBG and MATR_CRG can be used to get the green color decoding balanced (NOT for any grayscale issues). I would use the "Gamma On" parameter to isolate green instead of using a filter.

Thank you Cheezmo, I really appreciate your suggestions. I will try those two settings and will report back. So for the green I need to concentrate on making Cyan and White bars the brightess, right? If I can't get the same amount of green on all four bars?

gimphboi

12-20-04, 07:19 PM

OK, so I decided to get my set (HLP5063) ISF calibrated today.

The ISF Technician has worked with HLM and HLN models, but was having issues with my HLP. The settings that he was attempting to modify were having no effect. They were:

Red_Gain
Blue_Gain
Green_Gain

Red_Offset2
Blue_Offset2
Green_Offset2

Should these have an effect on the grayscale?

He then tried modifying the following:

Red_C_Coeff
Blue_C_Coeff
Green_C_Coeff

Red_B_Coeff
Blue_B_Coeff
Green_B_Coeff

They had an effect, but he described them as being course and not acting as he was expecting. Sorry I can't be more descriptive.

He had some information he had downloaded from either ISF or Sencore, but it was aimed at the HLN, HLM models not the HLP. Much of what it said did not appear to apply.

Help is appreciated.

Thanks,

-Tony

Cheezmo

12-20-04, 08:01 PM

Sad to hear that the calibrator was not familiar with the set. The XX_X_Coeff parameters are the ones that should have been used. The procedure is not trivial though. You generally have a choice of turning off CCA and leaving it off, then adjusting those parameters or doing the CCA calibration which involves turning it off, measuring the primaries and entering your target white point in the CCA menu, then turning CCA back on with a little bit of follow up tweaking to follow. I found on my particular chassis HL-P5063 with firmware 1014, leaving it off allowed me to get the best color decoding, etc. That basic procedure is described in the service manual which your calibrator should get ahold of.

I wouldn't be upset with him, but would expect him to learn about your set and redo it. Samsung is putting some pretty powerful stuff in their service menus, but how to use much of it is not well understood, even by the calibrator community, but we are working on it!

If he wants to visit www.isfforum.com and sign up there, there is information available to calibrators there that should help him out.

gimphboi

12-20-04, 08:12 PM

Thanks Steve!

What is CCA?

I also have the 1014 firmware like you.

Does someone have a spreadsheet with the 1014 default values? I found one for the 1011 and another firmware, but not the 1014.

Also, are the SM settings different for each input or do you only adjust them once for all of the inputs.

One thing he also did was do a AutoColor reset. It changed the values for the gain and offset2 but it did not improve the puicture. He has since put the values back to default.

Can the service manual be purchased online?

Thanks,

-Tony

andersa

12-20-04, 08:19 PM

Tony,

yes, you can order the service manual from http://www.samsungparts.com .
Mine is on it's way!

/Anders

gimphboi

12-20-04, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by andersa
Tony,

yes, you can order the service manual from http://www.samsungparts.com .
Mine is on it's way!

/Anders

Anyway to buy a PDF of it or something?

1Mark1

12-20-04, 08:27 PM

I believe dvi, hdmi and vga all share same settings and both component share each other, and all svideo share yet another. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Hmm I also have 1014 firmware.

gimphboi

12-20-04, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by 1Mark1
I believe dvi, hdmi and vga all share same settings and both component share each other, and all svideo share yet another. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Hmm I also have 1014 firmware.

I'm wondering about this, because I changed the gamma setting to 8 while in DVI, and then shut down and went to Component 1 and checked and it was also set to 8. Maybe I'm crazy...I don't know.

-Tony

1Mark1

12-20-04, 08:37 PM

Maybe the defaults were different. I'm only using hdmi and dvi so I can't check.

Well I guess I could go in thru dvi and see what it says. I was in hdmi when I changed gamma from 8 to 0.

htwaits

12-20-04, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by gimphboi
The ISF Technician has worked with HLM and HLN models, but was having major issues with my HLP.

You might also have him contact SethS who consults with Samsung and has done several HLPxx63 sets with good results.

gimphboi

12-20-04, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by htwaits
You might also have him contact SethS who consults with Samsung and has done several HLPxx63 sets with good results.

Do you have his email address?

Thanks,

-Tony

gimphboi

12-20-04, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by gimphboi
Do you have his email address?

Thanks,

-Tony

Never mind, I looked him up in the member profile.

-Tony

htwaits

12-20-04, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by gimphboi
Do you have his email address?

I just sent it to you in a PM.

andersa

12-20-04, 09:48 PM

Anyway to buy a PDF of it or something?
I doubt it. Hard copy is $29.95 with S/H.

/Anders

bent98

12-21-04, 01:15 AM

I went to my local store and requested a different TV. I have since ordered a SONY KDF-55XS955. I hope Im making the right choice. I just couldnt get rid of green in greyscale on 2 tvs. Samsung support sucked. Oh well. Lets see what happends.

gimphboi

12-21-04, 10:31 AM

Now I'm curious...

I was reading on the old HLM/HLN tweaks thread and there was some confusion as to what a AutoColor Reset does. Does anyone know what it does on the HLP models?

Thanks,

-Tony

Vertigo

12-21-04, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by Cheezmo
I would try seeing if MATR_CBG and MATR_CRG can be used to get the green color decoding balanced (NOT for any grayscale issues). I would use the "Gamma On" parameter to isolate green instead of using a filter.

I did this and man all my colors are right on now. Thanks Cheezmo. What I did in order to make this work perfectly was tricky. I isolated each color using Gamma On setting, quit SM and when to Cinema mode to see how each color looked until it looked perfect. I ended up with the following settings:

Contrast: 90
Brightness: 40
Color: 50
Sharpness: 0

My only complaint now is black level of course and getting an ISF professional to calibrate gray scale. :) It's looking great though. Be careful on setting 7 on Gamma On as Cheezmo indicated. I believe setting 3 isolates blue, 4 is green and 6 is red.

gimphboi

12-21-04, 11:44 AM

I spoke with the ISF technician this morning and he says he has been in contact with Sencore regarding the issues. He mentioned the possibility of using some sort of Sencore auto calibration software/unit. I'm not sure which. The HLP5063 doesn't have a RS-232 port on it, but I did notice a "SERVICE" jack on the back. Has anyone else heard of calibrators using this or the Sencore product he mentioned? He is still waiting for Sencore to finalize the information that he needs.

Thanks,

-Tony

Cheezmo

12-21-04, 05:48 PM

He is probably talking about the C3 interface that some Pioneers have. Sencore and Milori (and possibly one or two others) have software that can interface to those Pioneers, but I'm not aware of anything eminent for Samsung DLP RPTVs, especially those that are already on the market.

gimphboi

12-22-04, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by Cheezmo
He is probably talking about the C3 interface that some Pioneers have. Sencore and Milori (and possibly one or two others) have software that can interface to those Pioneers, but I'm not aware of anything eminent for Samsung DLP RPTVs, especially those that are already on the market.

Thanks for the info, I kind of figured that. He should be hearing back from Sencore today so perhaps I will have some new info to share.

BTW, are you familiar with what AutoColor Reset does on the Samsung HLP's?

Thanks,

-Tony

Ball

12-22-04, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by gimphboi
Does someone have a spreadsheet with the 1014 default values? I found one for the 1011 and another firmware, but not the 1014.

gimphboi - Do you still have the spreadsheet for 1011? I've been trying to find one for a while now...

gimphboi

12-22-04, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by Ball
gimphboi - Do you still have the spreadsheet for 1011? I've been trying to find one for a while now...

As it turns out, I was incorrect, it contains 1013 and 1028.

Sorry,

-Tony

Ball

12-22-04, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by gimphboi
As it turns out, I was incorrect, it contains 1013 and 1028.

Sorry,

-Tony

No problem, thanks!

bent98

12-23-04, 07:03 PM

I posted b4 that im getting rid of samsung and getting a sony kdf-55xs955. The samsung guys called my back and said its a simple fix for the green problem. Something about a jumper needs to be switch. There is a incompatablity on one of the boards. They were supposed to come today. They never showed up. As soon as I get info I will post if and what the fix was!

wingnut4772

12-25-04, 01:27 AM

I bought the HLP5663 with the 1035 firmware and the picture was a horrible green with some purple to boot. Two light engines and a didital board later I am sending it back. The picture is terrible. I was going to trade it back for the same but I decided to get the 5085. I saw the pic in the showroom on this and was thrilled...no green.

bent98

12-25-04, 10:39 AM

Im waiting for them to come. It has to be a issue with 1035 firmware with 5663W. Supposed to be a jumper setting. As soon as I get info ill post it.

wingnut4772

12-25-04, 12:49 PM

You would think the Samsung service guy would have heard of that. Oh well.....Now i just have to figure out where to put my center speaker.

network23

12-25-04, 04:20 PM

For anyone that is interested, I posted my settings here:
http://dlphdtvs.com/dlptvs/viewtopic.php?p=3#3
also, the factory settings (in case you get it out of wack) are here:
http://dlphdtvs.com/dlptvs/viewtopic.php?t=4

I used the AVIA disk and it was well worth it.
(HLN507 Samsung)

Vertigo

12-28-04, 09:58 AM

I am happy to report that after color decoding I did a couple of weeks ago, all is still well. The colors are much better now than my previous Mits 46805, even after ISF calibration and etc. I have close to 200 hours burned into the set now as well.

bent98, I never really had the problem you had. Did you get them to come and fix your set yet? What I was seeing was a green tint in dark scenes. The color decoding corrected that though.

Does anybody know how to turn off Antenna input by any chance? It is annoying when I toggle through Source button that it always comes up, even though there is nothing plugged into that input.

Thanks.

rodney_a

01-03-05, 01:43 PM

is the Expand mode available over component?

i have my STB feeding 720p into my 4663 component inputs and I only get wide and 4:3 when i hit the P.SIZE button on my remote.

is this picture mode only available over DVI or HDMI?

thanks in advance!

htwaits

01-03-05, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by rodney_a
is the Expand mode available over component?

I don't think so.

i have my STB feeding 720p into my 4663 component inputs and I only get wide and 4:3 when i hit the P.SIZE button on my remote.

If you switch the input to 480i or 480p I think you would get Panorama, Zoom1, and Zoom2 as well.

is this picture mode only available over DVI or HDMI?

I get Wide (TV), Wide (PC), Expand, and 4x3 with 720p through either DVI or HDMI. Wide (PC) is scaled to be a little smaller than the screen and can be useful for PC desk top work. Wide (TV) or Expand are best for movies and HDTV. Expand gives you a 1x1 bit map with a small (~1%) amount of over-scan. That's your sharpest image.

rodney_a

01-03-05, 05:14 PM

htwaits: thanks for the reply

another question...does anyone know how to adjust the green push in cinema mode? i know it's supposed to represent the 6500k standard (i've read that it uses the WARM2 picture setting), but to me it just looks to green.

i've been using the standard mode since i purchased the set, but the cinema mode does seem to provide nicer PQ with less noise/artifacts.

is there something in the Service Menu i can adjust?

BTW my set is a 4663 w/ the 1014 firmware...

htwaits

01-03-05, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by rodney_a
another question...does anyone know how to adjust the green push in cinema mode? i know it's supposed to represent the 6500k standard (i've read that it uses the WARM2 picture setting), but to me it just looks to green.

You can get a copy of Issue 58 of The Perfect Vision "2005 Buyer's Guide" which has a good article on calibration using the Digital Video Essentials calibration disk.

I changed gamma from 6 to zero in our HLP5063 which had firmware 1011 and thought I had good PQ. Our new HLP5063 has gamma set to 2 and I used the magazine to calibrate it. No problem with PQ but I'm sure the color balance and gray scale will benefit from an ISF calibration.

I'm on my way out now but if you want more details let me know.

gimphboi

01-04-05, 12:25 PM

Well, it's been a little while since I posted about my troubles getting my HLP calibrated. The ISF tech is still waiting to hear back from Sencore. Christmas and New Year's has made response time predictably slow. Now it looks like CES is slowing their response as well. I'll let you know how this all turns out.

-T

Vertigo

01-04-05, 02:03 PM

The green push can be easily be fixed by calibrating color decoder via SM as listed. Remember that when you are in SM, it uses Standard Warm 1 I believe. You have to isolate each color via Gamma On setting and go back to main menu to change to Cinema and adjust from there. For gray scale you need an ISF professional.

1Mark1

01-04-05, 03:22 PM

I have the 5063/1014 firmware and also had a green tint in cinema mode. Changed gamma from default 6 to 0 and green tint is gone.

htwaits

01-05-05, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by 1Mark1
I have the 5063/1014 firmware and also had a green tint in cinema mode. Changed gamma from default 6 to 0 and green tint is gone.
I did the same thing with firmware version 1011/5063.

kevinha

01-05-05, 02:12 AM

When you guys say "green," how green are we talking? A tinge of green or really green?

I was watching Seasion 3 of 24 on DVD today and noticed that Jack's daughter's hair (bleached blonde) has a green tinge to it ... and that the feeling of the picture overall has a green tinge.

I've calibrated with the standard DVE three bar pluge, though in trying to get the blues (and along with them, the reds and the greens) aligned has been very difficult.

Thoughts?

oswegoguy

01-05-05, 05:40 AM

After using the thx calibrations on my 4663 i have wiped out almost all green problems.My main problem was color was way to hi and contrast to low.My color on normal and cinema is at 35 which may seem low to alot of you but on my set after watching a dvd last night seems just right.No over exaggeration of colors.My contrast is at 90 and brightness at 50 i dont even know what sharpness is due to the fact i just pushed it anywhere it doesnt seem to do much.Color by the way on dynamic is at 42.Anyhow my only problem now is on cinema mode there just seems to be a dark green tinge in the blacks.Nothing like bright greens or anything just seems to my eyes greener than other settings.Its only in cinema.Mind you there isnt any tinge to hair or anything to that matter but just seems like it has a greener look to it in dark scenes.Is this normal or should i get ahold of samsung.

steel102

01-05-05, 03:27 PM

Hi: Great guide, unfortunately, lowering the gamma to zero didn't fix the problem i'm having, so I will contact Samsung. One question though: I do not have Avia or DVE, so could I use the built in test patterns accessible from the service menu to calibrate the TV? If so, what should I look for in each of the patterns?

Thank you

htwaits

01-05-05, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by steel102
Hi: Great guide, unfortunately, lowering the gamma to zero didn't fix the problem i'm having, so I will contact Samsung. One question though: I do not have Avia or DVE, so could I use the built in test patterns accessible from the service menu to calibrate the TV? If so, what should I look for in each of the patterns?

Thank you
With the problems you are having I think you would be better off to not do much in the SM. Why confuse the issue for Samsung?

steel102

01-05-05, 05:31 PM

I agree, but I was not planning on doing any thing in the SM right now, but I wanted to know for the future when everything gets sorted out. I did change the gamma to see if it fixed the problem i was having, but it didn't so I changed it back to the factory default setting.

htwaits

01-05-05, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by steel102
I agree, but I was not planning on doing any thing in the SM right now, but I wanted to know for the future when everything gets sorted out. I did change the gamma to see if it fixed the problem i was having, but it didn't so I changed it back to the factory default setting.
Wise.

Remember that the sets that have had good calibration data posted are ones owned by folks like UMR who have the knowledge and equipment to do the work correctly.

So far, I haven't run into any HLP owners with those credentials -- except for two ISF calibrators who post here and for obvious reasons they aren't posting detailed SM settings.

When the HLM sets came out there was a group of early adopters publishing that kind of information.

With the individual differences among sets it's not optimum to use SM settings from one set on a similar set.

I've used the DVE disk with the user controls, but I'm going to have a professional take our HLP5063 to it's optimum PQ -- what ever that is.
:)

collinp

01-17-05, 10:29 PM

So, where is Samsung getting these target values for CCA?

My set's (v1035) default CCA settings for DVI are :

DRedX 640
DRedY 340
DGreenX 300
DGreenY 620
DBlueX 150
DBlueY 60
DCyanX 205
DCyanY 270
DMagentaX 290
DMagentaY 140
DYellowX 425
DYellowY 515
D-White-X 291
D-White-Y 300

I would expect these desired primaries to be set to HD primaries. ITU 709 says HD whites and primaries should be :

Red=0.640,0.300
Green=0.300,0.600
Blue-0.150,0.060
White=0.3127,0.3290

These values are way off for SD primaries, so they are definitely trying to be HD primaries. This is not surprising considering this an HD set. ITU 470 says SD whites and primaries should be :

Red=0.670,0.330
Green=0.210,0.710
Blue-0.140,0.080
White-0.310,0.316

So, what the heck is going on? It seems strange that they would add a simple and precise way of calibrating these sets and then deliberately miscalibrate them.

- Collin

Cheezmo

01-17-05, 10:47 PM

The target primaries/secondaries don't work by just entering the correct values. Your best bet is to just start with the initial values, then tweak them from there, measuring your changes with your spectroradiometer until you dial each primary/secondary in.

collinp

01-17-05, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by Cheezmo
The target primaries/secondaries don't work by just entering the correct values. Your best bet is to just start with the initial values, then tweak them from there, measuring your changes with your spectroradiometer until you dial each primary/secondary in.

Oh, my impression from reading the service manual was that you would measure the native red, green, blue, and white points with CCA off. Once those values were entered into CCA, you would then choose your target primaries (ie. ITU 709 primaries), turn CCA on, hit WB Spread, and the set would automagically do the math to transform the measured colorspace into the desired colorspace. Is this not how it is intended to work? Or perhaps, this how it's intended to work, but it really needs a lot of hand tweaking to be accurate?

I'll probably end up just leaving CCA off and balancing the set the old-fashioned way, but I'd like to understand/experiment with CCA first.

- Collin

Cheezmo

01-17-05, 11:57 PM

I believe that is how it was intended to work, but it has not been my experience. I've only successfully tuned the primaries/secondaries on one and at least in that case entering the proper target primaries/secondaries just created a mess.

tloder

01-18-05, 03:36 PM

Is there anything in the service manual that really makes it worth buying?

swest

01-18-05, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by tloder
Is there anything in the service manual that really makes it worth buying?

Not in my opinion.

collinp

01-18-05, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by tloder
Is there anything in the service manual that really makes it worth buying?

It depends. I would buy it again since its not very expensive. Admittedly its relatively useless, though it does point you at the major items that need to be tuned. The defaults are useless as the defaults vary on these sets for each firmware (and perhaps each set). The explanation of each item in the SM is largely useless as they are usually defined in terms of themselves. (eg. The definition for AUTOCOLOR is "AUTOCOLOR - DTV auto color") It contains schematics for the set which I found relatively interesting. It also contains instructions for troubleshooting/repairing common problems, which I would make Samsung do. From a calibration perspective, the entire content could be boiled down to :

- adjust vertical and horizontal position with V-Position & H-Position
- tune the color wheel delay by maximizing red on the test pattern
- tune the wobulator with SP Actuator Gain by minimizing jaggies on the test pattern
- tune CCA by turning it off, measuring primaries, entering their values, entering your target primaries, turning CCA on, and hitting WB spread. Of course it appears that leaving CCA off and tuning with gains and cuts is the best way to tune these sets.

There is only slightly more detail on these topics in the service manual.

Some tuning items that aren't really explained in the service manual are :

- an alternate way to tune grayscale is to tune gains and cuts by leaving CCA off and adjusting the B_COEFF, C_COEFF, Sub_Contrast, & Sub_Brightness values in the DNIe menu
- adjust GAMMA setting in DDP1011 menu. Like on the previous models, GAMMA 0 appears to be the only true curve. All other curves seem to exaggerate the upper IREs and/or compress the lower IREs.

- Collin

collinp

01-20-05, 12:08 AM

These sets are a little slow to display video even when fed a digital 1:1 pixel mapped source. I have the audio delay on my iScan tuned to 40ms which is close, but not quite perfect. I've tried using the DVE a/v sync test patterns, but I find it difficult to fine tune the sync with these patterns. Unfortunately other DVDs are often plagued by poor ADR or mastering which make them difficult to tune with. I've been using the "guy talking about his car" sequence on DVE for this purpose, though I'm not convinced this sequence is perfect.

So what are other HLP owners tuning their audio delays to? Also, does anyone have any recommendations for DVDs which have solid lip sync to tune with?

- Collin

rodney_a

01-20-05, 02:50 PM

has anyone else noticed when viewing the "DNIE Demo" mode that the side which represents the set with DNIE turned on isn't quite the same as when the set IS ACTUALLY set to "DNIE On".

The "demo mode" DNIE seems to be a lot sharper and richer. Is there something wrong with my set?

collinp: can you expound on the following points you made

- tune the wobulator with SP Actuator Gain by minimizing jaggies on the test pattern
- tune CCA by turning it off, measuring primaries, entering their values, entering your target primaries, turning CCA on, and hitting WB spread. Of course it appears that leaving CCA off and tuning with gains and cuts is the best way to tune these sets.
- an alternate way to tune grayscale is to tune gains and cuts by leaving CCA off and adjusting the B_COEFF, C_COEFF, Sub_Contrast, & Sub_Brightness values in the DNIe menu

the only real tweak i've made in the SM is changing GAMMA to 0 which does look a little better, but would like to learn more about the above tweaks as well. also, can you get "stuck" in any of the SM options and render your set unusable. i'm trying to be cautious as well...

thanks in advance.

EricScott

01-20-05, 03:11 PM

Cheezmo

01-20-05, 03:35 PM

I wouldn't call it "sharper and richer" but "more overly enhanced and artifacty".

DNIe is best left off. It ads edge enhancement, makes black level dynamic and an unknown myriad of other undesirable things. If you prefer it fine, but be aware that you are sacrificing an accurate image.

collinp

01-20-05, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by rodney_a
has anyone else noticed when viewing the "DNIE Demo" mode that the side which represents the set with DNIE turned on isn't quite the same as when the set IS ACTUALLY set to "DNIE On".

The "demo mode" DNIE seems to be a lot sharper and richer. Is there something wrong with my set?

collinp: can you expound on the following points you made

- tune the wobulator with SP Actuator Gain by minimizing jaggies on the test pattern
- tune CCA by turning it off, measuring primaries, entering their values, entering your target primaries, turning CCA on, and hitting WB spread. Of course it appears that leaving CCA off and tuning with gains and cuts is the best way to tune these sets.
- an alternate way to tune grayscale is to tune gains and cuts by leaving CCA off and adjusting the B_COEFF, C_COEFF, Sub_Contrast, & Sub_Brightness values in the DNIe menu

the only real tweak i've made in the SM is changing GAMMA to 0 which does look a little better, but would like to learn more about the above tweaks as well. also, can you get "stuck" in any of the SM options and render your set unusable. i'm trying to be cautious as well...

thanks in advance.

Yeah, DNIe is best left off in my opinion. It adds edge enhancement and mucks with the gamma curve.

First off, yes there are things you can do which will render your set unusable. The only way to tweak the service menu is through the OSD so if you do something that keeps your set from displaying an image your set is useless. A simple example would be if you turned all gains down to zero. I've heard of people causing problems by selecting the wrong bulb type. Also there are reports that the autocolor option will muck with your colors in a way that can't be undone. I have no idea if that's true or not. Be careful and don't touch what you don't understand. Also write down all your defaults. They are unique to your set and they vary per input. Oh, yeah and accessing the service menu voids your warranty, but it sound like you've already done that. :)

These sets use an HP patented technique for increasing effective resolution called wobulation. There is a great thread with sample images of wobulation versus native resolution in the archives. <http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=394763&highlight=HD3>. My wobulator needed no tune up out of the box. Its easy to tune with no instruments. When you adjust the SP Actuator gain a little cross hair test pattern appears. If you look close the lines are made up of stacked and slightly overlapping diamonds. You adjust the gain until the edges of lines look least pointy.

The other things I mentioned require instruments which most people don't have access to. You can rent a ColorFacts system for such purposes, but hiring an ISF calibrator is about the same price.

The color wheel delay automatically displays a red test pattern. The delay should be adjusted to the point where you get the maximum CIE X reading. The Y value should not vary much. A good thread on setting the colorwheel delay on earlier models is in the archives. <http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=288534>

The other big thing to do is adjust your grayscale. The HLP series features two ways to do this, via a fancy new method called CCA which apparently does not work that well, and the old fashion way of adjusting gains and cuts (actually called B & C Coefficients on the HLPs). This is a subtle tuning and requires a high quality colorimeter. A good intro to the topic is the old TV calibration FAQ <http://myweb.accessus.net/~090/how2adj.html> Examples of the issues you are trying to minimize with grayscale calibration are available here <http://www.milori.com/articles/image_quality_issues.asp>

You want to do several things.

- Set the gamma so that your primaries track a smooth curve with an exponent between 2.2 and 2.5. This can be done easily on these sets by selecting gamma 0, though without retuning gains and cuts you might actually be crushing the low and/or high IREs and hence causing more issues than you're solving.

- Set the mixture of red, green, and blue light to match D65 from the perspective of the human eye. This is a more complex issue than most people realize. I good explanation of why is <http://www.milori.com/articles/color_measurement.asp>.

- Adjust the gains and cuts so that no color is being crushed low or high and all three colors maintain the same ratio throughout all IREs. This is called grayscale tracking. This is generally done by :

- Finding the color which stops getting brighter first as contrast is increased. On these sets it is red.
- Leaving the gains and cuts for this color at default (128) and adjusting it using sub brightness and sub contrast.
- Adjusting the gains and cuts of the other colors relative to this color.

ColorFacts features a wizard which walks you through this. Grayscale tracking is essentially impossible to get right with out the appropriate tools.

- Collin

Cheezmo

01-20-05, 09:01 PM

Another thing that can be calibrated with Colorfacts (or another spectroradiometer) on the later HLP sets (firmware > 1014) is the color primaries and secondaries. HDTV specifications call for a certain color of red, green, blue, etc. and on these sets you can actually calibrate that. Doing so eliminates the "limey greens/flourescent yellows" issue that you may see or have read about in reviews as the green primary is the one that is most off out of the box.

collinp

01-20-05, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by Cheezmo
Another thing that can be calibrated with Colorfacts (or another spectroradiometer) on the later HLP sets (firmware > 1014) is the color primaries and secondaries. HDTV specifications call for a certain color of red, green, blue, etc. and on these sets you can actually calibrate that. Doing so eliminates the "limey greens/flourescent yellows" issue that you may see or have read about in reviews as the green primary is the one that is most off out of the box.

Even with CCA off?

- Collin

Cheezmo

01-20-05, 09:46 PM

No. I ended up leaving CCA off with firmware 1014 because I got the best results that way. On the newer firmware (I've seen 1024 and 1035), I've been able to fully calibrate the primaries/secondaries with CCA on and haven't had the issues I had back on 1014 when CCA was on.

collinp

01-20-05, 09:57 PM

So what's the CCA tuning technique? Its a whole new way of tuning. Is the following relatively accurate?

- Tune the color wheel
- Measure the primaries
- Enter the measured primaries into CCA
- Don't enter the desired primaries/secondaries, but use the default primaries & secondaries as a starting point and tweak them until they match BT 709 primaries and secondaries
- Tweak the B & C COEFFs to get the grayscale tracking right. I assume it won't be that far off.

- Collin

Cheezmo

01-20-05, 11:02 PM

That is about right. I doubled checked my procedure and actually entered the measured primaries/secondaries as the initial targets. That way, they don't actually change when you turn CCA on and you can start tuning from there.

Also, after you tweak each primary/secondary value you need to rerun WB Spread.

htwaits

01-20-05, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by collinp
Oh, yeah and accessing the service menu voids your warranty, but it sound like you've already done that. :)
So far no one has ever reported that entering the SM has caused Samsung to void their warranty. On the other hand, don't ever start out with an entry level CS person by saying, "After I went into the SV the TV started ..."

collinp

01-21-05, 01:31 AM

Originally posted by Cheezmo
That is about right. I doubled checked my procedure and actually entered the measured primaries/secondaries as the initial targets. That way, they don't actually change when you turn CCA on and you can start tuning from there.

Also, after you tweak each primary/secondary value you need to rerun WB Spread.

That makes a lot of sense, start without any transformation then adjust the transformation until you hit the correct primaries/secondaries.

Did you find that the grayscale tracked pretty well once you had lined up the primaries and secondaries? Or did it require additional tweaking in the DNIe menu?

- Collin

dpa34

01-21-05, 10:25 AM

Hello, I have had the 5063w for a week Nov,

Unit has firmware 1035 Built in Nov 2004.

I know this is a stupid question but by mistake when I was in the sm menu I think I might have changed the color wheel setting? Can someone tell me if that setting should be on cw1 or cw2? I have it cw1 and TV is working just not sure if that was what it was set on by default.

Thanks and love the forum

htwaits

01-24-05, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by dpa34
Hello, I have had the 5063w for a week Nov,

Unit has firmware 1035 Built in Nov 2004.

Can someone tell me if that setting should be on cw1 or cw2? I have it cw1 and TV is working...
I have the same set and firmware version and the "color wheel" variable in the "Option" menu is set to cw1.

collinp

01-24-05, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by htwaits
I have the same set and firmware version and the "color wheel" variable in the "Option" menu is set to cw1.

And just to make everything simple, I have the same set and firmware version and the "color wheel" variable in the "Option" menu is set to CW2. Doh!

- Collin

htwaits

01-24-05, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by collinp
And just to make everything simple, I have the same set and firmware version and the "color wheel" variable in the "Option" menu is set to CW2. Doh!

- Collin
I should have also included that my build date is October 2004. :)

darkburst

01-24-05, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by htwaits
I should have also included that my build date is October 2004. :)

Where do I find my build date?

Iceblade

01-24-05, 12:18 PM

It's on the sticker on the back of your set that also has things like the serial number.

Later,
Jeff

jsantors

01-24-05, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by darkburst
Where do I find my build date?

It is on the sticker on the box. Serial Number, Manufacture date and Country.
Mine was November 2004 in Mexico.

htwaits

01-24-05, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by darkburst
Where do I find my build date?
Looking at the set from the rear I think it's in the lower right corner.

collinp

01-24-05, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by htwaits
I should have also included that my build date is October 2004. :)

October 2004 for me too. My guess would be that this is selecting for color wheels from different manufacturers or different batches. They probably have slightly different filter characteristics. Just a guess though.

I'd get the set ISF'd and tell the calibrator you fiddled with this option. It may be apparent from measuring the primaries which setting is appropriate. If the calibrator doesn't notice a difference either way then maybe the setting doesn't matter much.

- Collin

troll565

01-30-05, 10:03 AM

I just picked up a 5063W yesterday for $2199 and I have a November build date. I won't have any HD channels until Friday but my Sony DVD player through components looks amazing after adjusting all the settings I found in this thread. Thanks a bunch. I'll report back on Friday once I get my Comcast 6412 hooked up.

Tinker

01-31-05, 10:04 AM

Well just got a new digital board (new FW 1035? older was 1024-25?) for the 6163. The PQ is worst then before getting "repaired". The probm I phoned in about was the shifting of the pic in compnent 2 input to the extreme right that occured after about 4 months. The Pic on both component inputs are shifted, the worst being 2. Well after two weeks the repair shop got a part from Samsung. This was a completley new "digital" section that goes underneath where all the inputs are in the chassis. I'd never had any probm with the DVI. Now the PQ is totally cr@p. Clay faces in all shadow area's. The Coax TV input pic is all blowned out (washed) out. All other inputs are over bright (metalic looking at times) and looks like when a computer monitor is set up with not enuf colors on fast pans. Well the repair tech will see what Samsung says since he noticed that the PQ was also cr@p with the parts/instructions provide by Samsung. Only good thing about the new digital engine is that now on wide PC I get pic position and size adjustments...too bad the PQ looks like cr@p....just a little venting.

Cheezmo

01-31-05, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Tinker
Well just got a new digital board (new FW 1035? older was 1024-25?) for the 6163. The PQ is worst then before getting "repaired". The probm I phoned in about was the shifting of the pic in compnent 2 input to the extreme right that occured after about 4 months. The Pic on both component inputs are shifted, the worst being 2. Well after two weeks the repair shop got a part from Samsung. This was a completley new "digital" section that goes underneath where all the inputs are in the chassis. I'd never had any probm with the DVI. Now the PQ is totally cr@p. Clay faces in all shadow area's. The Coax TV input pic is all blowned out (washed) out. All other inputs are over bright (metalic looking at times) and looks like when a computer monitor is set up with not enuf colors on fast pans. Well the repair tech will see what Samsung says since he noticed that the PQ was also cr@p with the parts/instructions provide by Samsung. Only good thing about the new digital engine is that now on wide PC I get pic position and size adjustments...too bad the PQ looks like cr@p....just a little venting.

When my 5063 was upgraded from 1014 to 1035 I had a similar issue. It turns out that the SEQ_SELECT parameter in the service menu was not set properly. In my old board it was set to 8, in the new one it was set to 5. When I changed it back to 8, all the "banding/dithering/not enuf colors" issues went away.

Tinker

01-31-05, 10:33 AM

Cheezmo

Mucho thanx....

htwaits

01-31-05, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by Cheezmo
When my 5063 was upgraded from 1014 to 1035 I had a similar issue. It turns out that the SEQ_SELECT parameter in the service menu was not set properly. In my old board it was set to 8, in the new one it was set to 5. When I changed it back to 8, all the "banding/dithering/not enuf colors" issues went away.
Just a confirmation of what you observed. Our set (HLP5063 - October build) came with firmware 1035 and SEQ_SELECT was set to 8 OTB.

smithre4

01-31-05, 12:57 PM

Has anyone else noticed that you cannot see the 4% below black (far right and far left vertical bars) when calibrating brightness using DVE? Or is this something unusual on my set?

HLP6163
firmware 1024

Cheezmo

01-31-05, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by smithre4
Has anyone else noticed that you cannot see the 4% below black (far right and far left vertical bars) when calibrating brightness using DVE? Or is this something unusual on my set?

HLP6163
firmware 1024

Component or HDMI/DVI?

Either way, it is not unusual, but if you can see the 2% above black you should be OK. You are supposed to adjust the brightness so that you can't see the -4% and -2% anyway. In many cases there is also quite a bit of white clipping on component, and I'm still struggling over how to correct it properly. Some experimeneting with the Autocolor function with appropriate test patterns tents to yield some improvement but different behavior with different firmware versions makes it tough to get a handle on. I'm going back to wrestle with such a 6163 with firmware 1024 next week.

smithre4

01-31-05, 01:56 PM

It was with the HDMI input and that's how I tuned it anyway. I haven't tested my component input.

I was just curious as I was tuning a friend's LG 44" DLP the other day and I could see the 4% below (component input). Not apples to apples, but it got me thinking about my TV and if I had yet another issue.

Ross

bruce73

01-31-05, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by smithre4
Has anyone else noticed that you cannot see the 4% below black (far right and far left vertical bars) when calibrating brightness using DVE? Or is this something unusual on my set?

HLP6163
firmware 1024
Just a thought, but wouldn't this have more to do with your DVD player than the set, and how it passes BTB data? I have a 5063W (build 1024) and can see all bars with DVE using component or HDMI/DVI.

Bruce

smithre4

01-31-05, 07:52 PM

Bruce,

I just tried another DVD player (this time on a component input) and I had the same result, I do not see the 4% below bar.

So the two DVD players I've tried are:

XBox
Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi

Ross

Cheezmo

01-31-05, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by bruce73
Just a thought, but wouldn't this have more to do with your DVD player than the set, and how it passes BTB data? I have a 5063W (build 1024) and can see all bars with DVE using component or HDMI/DVI.

Bruce

It can be either. Some DVD players pass blacker than black, others don't (and it may be dependent on a setting on the player). Some Samsung's seem to pass it fine out of the box, but I've seen some where the component clips black and white horribly.

bruce73

01-31-05, 08:24 PM

Ross:

Hmmm. Well, out of curiousity, I looked up the DV-59AVi over at the Secrets site to see how it fared on its shootout (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=DVD+Player&manufacturer=30&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0) . All versions passed Black than Black successfully.

Cheezmo:

I didn't realize it could be either the player or the TV. I would figure that the TV would simply display whatever data it was presented with, but I'm sure that it's a helluva lot more complicated than that. :D

smithre4

01-31-05, 08:30 PM

Bruce,

Thanks for that link...I didn't know that site existed. So assuming the site is accurate, my DVD player should be passing the blacker-than-black, so it looks like my TV has the "issue".

If anyone else has a HLP6163 let me know if you can see blacker-than-black, otherwise, I'll wait to here back from you Steve after your calibration. :)

Ross

bruce73

01-31-05, 10:17 PM

You're welcome, Ross. When I was researching DVD players a few months ago (ended up with a Denon 2910), I found a link to the Secrets site and, while a lot of the info is beyond my expertise (to put it mildly, ;) ), it did teach me a few things and I came away not feeling quite so overwhelmed.

The only problem I had with passing BTB on my 5063 was when I had it hooked up to a Yamaha S-1500 player. That was definitely the player's limitation (as confirmed by Secrets) and I returned it for the Denon.

tloder

02-01-05, 09:22 AM

I have the 5063 and I don't think I can see the 4% bar.

Is this a known issue?

Tinker

02-01-05, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by smithre4
Bruce,

Thanks for that link...I didn't know that site existed. So assuming the site is accurate, my DVD player should be passing the blacker-than-black, so it looks like my TV has the "issue".

If anyone else has a HLP6163 let me know if you can see blacker-than-black, otherwise, I'll wait to here back from you Steve after your calibration. :)

Ross

When I 1st got my 6163, it was able to reproduce blacker than black using a Denon 2910 DVD player and DVE. But right now after the 6163 has been "repaired" I cant even tell if its showing all the colors correctly. The 6163 can reproduce BTB.

Cheezmo:
I did the setting u provided and other settings thru the SM and it did correct some of the probm's but still has major issues wiith the blow out images via the coax and to some extent thru component. DVI looks OK tho. I quess another new digital board will be needed....:rolleyes:

BTW thanx again for the hint.

EricScott

02-01-05, 01:41 PM

Anyone know if the HDMI input on the HLPs (I have a 5063) accepts 480i in addition to 480p, 720p and 1080i? Just got a Sci. Atlanta 8300HD with a working HDMI and was hoping to do a true pass through for all channels.

htwaits

02-01-05, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by EricScott
Anyone know if the HDMI input on the HLPs (I have a 5063) accepts 480i in addition to 480p, 720p and 1080i?
HDMI and DVI do not accept 480i.

EricScott

02-01-05, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by htwaits
HDMI and DVI do not accept 480i.

Crap. That's what I thought. Is this unique to Samsung or do HDMI and DVI typically not accept 480i - can they even?

Hopefully the 8300 won't have the same shortcoming of the 8000HD and I'll be able to output 480i over S-Video, while outputting HD over HDMI. This will give me more picture size options anyway.

pdermody

02-01-05, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by htwaits
HDMI and DVI do not accept 480i.

HDMI specs allow for 480i, DVI does not.

-pd

jwinterich

02-01-05, 02:48 PM

I can't get 480i to work either with HDMI on a 5063W with a SA8300HD. I had hoped I could watch all programming through HDMI - but that's not the case. I have to switch to S-Video or component to see 480i (i.e. non HD programming).

Also, anyone know why you can get noise on the Antenna feed on a 5063W when HDMI and Component inputs are feeding 1080i from a SA8300HD? The noise appears above in the black bands above and below the picture... of course there is no reason to view content on the ANT 1 input when the HD content is best viewed on the HDMI or Component input.. but I was curious if this was a SA8300 issue (which I think it is) and why it happened. No one in the other forum (STBs) seems to know.

What is the consensus on the best way to view SD on a 5063W? S-Vid?

I never saw a clear answer on which inputs are grouped together when changing settings (color, brightness, etc.)

Thanks,
Jeff

pdermody

02-01-05, 02:59 PM

The specs allow for 480i over HDMI, I think I read elsewhere that Samsung doesnt support it though. So with that, s-video or sd component look pretty good on the Samsung.

-pd

EricScott

02-01-05, 03:01 PM

Seems like a pretty poor design decision on Sammy's part. I agree with jwinterich. It would be nice to have one cable pass everything - that's one of the main benefits of HDMI. I know I can still pass all channels over HDMI but that involves letting the box convert 480i to 480p or 720p, which is likely to introduce interference.

I think the PQ will be quite good just using component for 480i and then I have a variety of picture size options on the Samsung. Not that big of a deal but definitely dings the WAF.

htwaits

02-01-05, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by pdermody
HDMI specs allow for 480i, DVI does not.

-pd
Samsung supports (to the best of my knowledge) 480p, 1080i and 720p over HDMI and DVI. They also support 480i, etc. over component. I haven't read about any other manufacturer's supporting 480i over HDMI. It would be interesting to know if any of them do do or why they don't.

Spaulding

02-04-05, 08:20 AM

All, I just received my Sammy 6163 yesterday. I am fairly happy with the picture, but concerned about the audio. I am currently hooked up to an RCA HD STB from Directv via DVI. when viewing SD channels, the volume seems to be normal, but when I switch to HD channels, the volume seems to be lower. Does anybody know what this could possibly be? This was fine when hooked up to my CRT RP. Also, I do not know how to get Auto Volume enabled on this TV. It is greyed out no matter what I do.

One last thing, regarding PQ. I noticed that in some darker scenes, that have clouds or some softer whites in them, the whites seem to become pixelated, and greyish (almost cartoonish). Has anybody seen this one?

Thanks!

RMSko

02-04-05, 10:05 AM

I just got a replacement 5663 and it has firmware 1035 built in December 2004. It doesn't appear to have any green push issues so maybe they have fixed it with the December builds (or maybe I'm just overly optimistic!). I haven't changed the gamma setting and think I may watch it a bit before doing so. Does anyone else have a December build date? If so, what are your results?

Riley9208

02-04-05, 10:17 AM

This is Samsung's self-proclaimed "last chance" to fix my TV. It arrived DOA back in August, 2004, a LE #2 allowed for a pic that I've been tweaking for 5 months. The PQ was great except for dark scenes and some blacks. Gamma=0 improved things quite a bit, but something was still not right. I finally broke down and hired an ISF calibration. He wouldn't even touch the set when we saw lots of greens on the gray-scale pattern and some bad posterization and banding on HDNet.

Samsung sent a tech yesterday, after one-half hour of polite arguing (and teaching him how to use his pattern generator) he finally broke down and ordered another LE. Samsung has told me if it's not fixed this time around, I'll get a new TV.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

bojangling

02-04-05, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Vertigo

Does anybody know how to turn off Antenna input by any chance? It is annoying when I toggle through Source button that it always comes up, even though there is nothing plugged into that input.

Was there ever an answer to this? Didn't think you could turn it off, but maybe I am missing something.

With firmware ver 1013, is it recommended to change the gamma from 8 to 0? What kind of picture difference would I expect to see?

Thanks.

collinp

02-04-05, 06:30 PM

How appropriate is the ColorFacts tristimulus meter for calibrating an HLP? Usually tristimulus meters are keyed to CRT primaries, but ColorFacts PR makes their meter sound more sophisticated than that. Does one really need a spectroradiometer to get things right?

- Collin

Cheezmo

02-04-05, 11:41 PM

To really get the best out of the sets with primary/secondary adjustment possible in the service menus, you really must have a spectroradiometer.

Shep4117

02-05-05, 10:19 PM

Samsung HL-P5063W Questions
First let me say that I have learned alot from this forum and I have already tinkered with the settings and improved the color, but my PQ is still pretty crappy. I have HDTV, and those pictures look good, but not mind blowing. The digital channels are decent and the analog channels pretty poor, but I expected that. After spending some time reading the forums, I have some questions that I would like to ask.

I was able to access the SM and found that my firmware is version 1035. MY TV was manufactured in November 2004 in Mexico.

1. I currently have the TV about 10 feet from the couch. Is that far enough or should I rearrange the furniture to accomodate the TV. It's no big deal if I need to.

2. I followed the directions posted in the forum and was able to change my Gamma from 2 to 0 and it made a marginal change.

3. The cable company installed the HD convertor box while I was on vacation earlier this week and they didn't quite set it up the way the directions state. They simply connected the cable wire directly to the convertor box and then from the box to the TV. After reading the manual, it looks as though the cable wire should have been directly connected to the TV through ANT-1 in and then a separate wire from ANT-1 out to the convertor and then from the convertor to ANT-2 in. Would this cause a poor picture?

4. I have read about an "Expand" picture setting and that this would provide the clearest picture. I also read that I need to have 720i (or something to that effect) in order for this picture option to appear. How do I get 720i?

5. On a couple HD stations, I get alot of interference along the top of the picture. What causes this and how do I get rid of it? I am thinking that it is a poor HD signal.

6. Is there a way to have the HD channels take up the entire screen and still have clear quality? Maybe with Expand?

7. On my NBC HD channel, I get 2 white bars on each side of the picture. Is that normal. It is annoying.

Thanks for your help and I'll keep reading.

Shep

1Mark1

02-05-05, 10:51 PM

Set your Cable box to 16:9, 720p
Use component or better yet DVI or HDMI conection to TV from
Cable box and set TV input to match whichever you use.

That should get you started.

Old^Style

02-05-05, 11:56 PM

anyone know of a good calibrator in the colorado springs area? and about howmuch would it cost to have it done professionaly just for the tv?

Gojhawks

02-06-05, 08:00 AM

The cable company installed the HD convertor box while I was on vacation earlier this week and they didn't quite set it up the way the directions state. They simply connected the cable wire directly to the convertor box and then from the box to the TV. After reading the manual, it looks as though the cable wire should have been directly connected to the TV through ANT-1 in and then a separate wire from ANT-1 out to the convertor and then from the convertor to ANT-2 in. Would this cause a poor picture?
If I understand correctly your cable box is only hooked up to the Ant 1 input. If so you have not been watching high definition at all. Coax cable will not pass HD from your cable box to your TV. As was suggested above you need to connect the cable box via DVI or Component in order to get true high definition signal on the HD broadcasts.

Gojhawks

02-06-05, 08:06 AM

I have read about an "Expand" picture setting and that this would provide the clearest picture. I also read that I need to have 720i (or something to that effect) in order for this picture option to appear. How do I get 720i?
To have the expand option your cable box needs to output 720p (native resolution of the DLP) Then will have choice of Wide TV, Wide PC, Expand and 4:3. As I noted above, you MUST have a DVI (could be HDMI) or at minimum Component hookup to your cable box.

troll565

02-06-05, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by Gojhawks
To have the expand option your cable box needs to output 720p (native resolution of the DLP) Then will have choice of Wide TV, Wide PC, Expand and 4:3. As I noted above, you MUST have a DVI (could be HDMI) or at minimum Component hookup to your cable box.

Are there any benefits or drawbacks of having the box output 1080i and then have the TV convert it?

Gojhawks

02-06-05, 09:55 AM

Are there any benefits or drawbacks of having the box output 1080i and then have the TV convert it?
The question is whether the TV or the cable box does better job of deinterlacing? I have tried outputting 720p and 1080i from my Motorola cablebox over DVI and frankly have seen no real difference. I leave my box outputting 720p so when watching ABC,FOX and ESPNHD there is no conversion and also have the "expand" picture option. When channel is broadcasting 1080i the cable box deinterlaces it before sent to Sammy. If output 1080i from cable box for all channels then 720p broadcast gets converted twice as cable box converts to 1080i and then Sammy deinterlaces back to 720p. Outputting 720p seems to make most sense to me.

I understand some set top boxes allow you to pass through the resolution that the channel is being broadcast in which seems ideal. Unfortunately I don't have that option. The thing to do is experiment and find out what looks best to your eyes.

troll565

02-06-05, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Gojhawks
The question is whether the TV or the cable box does better job of deinterlacing? I have tried outputting 720p and 1080i from my Motorola cablebox over DVI and frankly have seen no real difference. I leave my box outputting 720p so when watching ABC,FOX and ESPNHD there is no conversion and also have the "expand" picture option. When channel is broadcasting 1080i the cable box deinterlaces it before sent to Sammy. If output 1080i from cable box for all channels then 720p broadcast gets converted twice as cable box converts to 1080i and then Sammy deinterlaces back to 720p. Outputting 720p seems to make most sense to me.

I understand some set top boxes allow you to pass through the resolution that the channel is being broadcast in which seems ideal. Unfortunately I don't have that option. The thing to do is experiment and find out what looks best to your eyes.

I have a Sammy HLP5063W and a Motorola 6412. I have it set on 1080i right now and just tried switching back and forth from 720 and 1080 and don't really see a big difference. I'm on my way out to pick up a DVI cable right now, maybe that'll make a difference.

Cheezmo

02-06-05, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by troll565
Are there any benefits or drawbacks of having the box output 1080i and then have the TV convert it?

One issue is that the TV displays 1080i with ~4% overscan, while in Expand mode, it can do 720p at ~1.5% overscan.

So, at 720p, you'll get to see more of the picture.

The other issues with regard to which scaler is better in other posts also apply.

collinp

02-06-05, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by bojangling
Was there ever an answer to this? Didn't think you could turn it off, but maybe I am missing something.

I seriously doubt that this is possible. I've owned HLN and HLP sets and been all over their service menus. I've never seen anything which allows the configuration of things like this. The only thing relating to UI configuration is the ability to turn the "DNIE Demo" option off.

Originally posted by bojangling
With firmware ver 1013, is it recommended to change the gamma from 8 to 0? What kind of picture difference would I expect to see?

Thanks. [/B]

Recommended? Well nothing is recommended except perhaps in ISF calibration.

Gamma 0 is about a 2.5 to 2.6 gamma curve. Its slightly "darker" than the recommended 2.5 curve but I think it suits these sets. The other options are not true exponential curves, rather they are more "S" shaped. This means they tend to exaggerate the upper IREs and compress the lower IREs.

The problem however with just saying that gamma 0 is recommended is that you really should recalibrate everything else once you do this. On the HLNs this was definitely necessary as you would loose a lot of black detail until the cuts were brought up. On my 1035 HLP the black crush is less dramatic so you may be able to get away with it as a simple "tweak".

These gamma tables seem relatively unchanged since the first generation of Samsung DLPs. I'm pretty certain that you can find ColorFacts measurements of all the gamma settings if you dig deep enough in the archives.

What differences are you going to see? Well, right now you are probably losing a bit of detail in the blacks and whites which give the set a certain punchiness at the cost of shadow and highlight detail. This tends to give the set an increase in perceived contrast ratio, though it's just an illusion. Using a proper gamma curve will negate these "advantages" and create an image that looks a lot more like projected film.

- Collin

Old^Style

02-06-05, 01:46 PM

I have a motorola Moxi HD/DVR Cable box, and the 4663w. For some reason when i set the cable box to 720p the tv will not accept it. But with it is set to 1080 it does accept it. currently it is going through the component cables because my cable company hasyet to activate the DVI port on the back of the cable box.

Cheezmo

02-06-05, 01:55 PM

That is a known issue and if your firmware version is 33 or later, a technician can fix it with some service mode adjustments. If you have an earlier firmware version you'll need a digital board upgrade. In any event, contact Samsung and arrange for a service call, they should have a technical bulletin on that issue.

Old^Style

02-06-05, 01:59 PM

Alright, thank you very much. I also noticed the smudges on the screen for the first time today....can i have them fix that to? I have had my tv only for about 3 days. how long does it take for the smudges to go away after turn on?

Cheezmo

02-06-05, 02:20 PM

Yes, I would call Samsung and describe both problems and expect them to take care of it.

Old^Style

02-06-05, 02:38 PM

Thank you for your help cheezmo. I just tried calling, but the wait time se4ems to be long (i am guessing because of the super bowl and all everybody wants there tv fixed now! So i will wait till tonight or tomorrow to do it.

Old^Style

02-07-05, 02:23 PM

Well the guy at samsung does not beleive me, and wants me to call the cable company to make sure it works, then go rent an xbox game that is 720p to see if that works before he will send a tech out there. so i got to waste more time and money ti orove to them it does not work.

UPDATE: alright, called cable co they told me it is working. called samsung back and now they told me because i had it hooked into component 1 and to try it in component 2. And that did not work either, so now calling samsung back.

UPDATE 2: finaly got someone who acknolgese there is a problem, sent me over to there service dept to set up an a time for a tech to come out!

Riley9208

02-07-05, 04:43 PM

Old^Style,

Here's a good thread discussing how to get the smudges fixed. I called Samsung today to arrange for a replacement. We'll see how it goes.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=504411

Good luck.

chinman

02-07-05, 04:52 PM

hey that's my thread!

use it in good health ;)

smithre4

02-07-05, 10:08 PM

Well just to let you guys know, Samsung is replacing my HLP6163 set (for other reasons), so I will let everyone know if I still have BTB issues when the new set arrives in 14-21 days (good thing the TV is still operable :) ).

Ross

PS - If you live in the MD area and need an authorized service repair, let me know so i can tell you which ASP not to use...

S1DIMMER

02-09-05, 11:51 AM

I've had my HLP5663W since mid August, with no major problems to report. I've only seen one person here mention that their sharpness control does nothing to the picture. I have mine set at zero as I've seen in other threads. Overall my PQ is good. HD and DVD's look great. SD looks pretty poor but I kind of expected that. I can see some smudges or slightly whit-ish areas on the screen when the set is off. Once the set is on they do not seem to interfere at all with the picture? Again my picture quality seems great on HD and DVD sources, component and DVI respectively. I've only made minor adjustments in the user menu settings. I'm really curious to see differences in PQ between an ISF calibrated set and a strictly user menu calibrated set. Maybe some others might notice a difference but I'm not sure I would. My eyes aren't the greatest, I wear glasses to see detail but for the most part don't need them for daily tasks.

I'm going to check out the smudges thread to see what the deal is.

grego27

02-09-05, 01:35 PM

Samsung HLP5063W
Just purchased the HLP5063w from BB and I am having problems with the picture. I have been reading the posts here and have tried to adjust gamma settings in SM, but still have bad pics.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skin tones have improved, but there is still severe--worse even--banding in skies, on walls, etc. Any even toned surface with a light gradient is broken up into bands.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I seem to have the same problem with pic as moonhawk, plus I have a pronounced green tint to everything.

BB service is coming out thurs to look at it, but does it sound like a color wheel problem or just a settings issue? and is the BB tech going to be able to do anything about a settings issue?

Cheezmo

02-09-05, 02:25 PM

Those banding problems can be a result of the SEQ_SELECT service mode parameter being set wrong. I believe it should be 8 (at least it is on mine), but after a digital board replacement it can come defaulting to 5 which causes all kinds of bad banding/dithering effects.

Originally posted by grego27
Samsung HLP5063W
Just purchased the HLP5063w from BB and I am having problems with the picture. I have been reading the posts here and have tried to adjust gamma settings in SM, but still have bad pics.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skin tones have improved, but there is still severe--worse even--banding in skies, on walls, etc. Any even toned surface with a light gradient is broken up into bands.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I seem to have the same problem with pic as moonhawk, plus I have a pronounced green tint to everything.

BB service is coming out thurs to look at it, but does it sound like a color wheel problem or just a settings issue? and is the BB tech going to be able to do anything about a settings issue?

grego27

02-09-05, 03:37 PM

Thanks Cheezmo, I will try that. Do you have any ideas about the green tint?

EricScott

02-09-05, 03:42 PM

What are people's thoughts on trying to request a firmware upgrade for my 5063?

I got my set in mid June - firmware 1013. I had the light engine replaced when I had 3BL but otherwise the set has been trouble free (except for smudges now and then which I've learned to deal with). Wondering if it is worth requesting an upgrade to a newer firmware version. I'm pretty annoyed that I can't get my HDMI discreet to work. My DVI discreet works fine but I really need both to work.

Plus if the PQ is improved, I figure it's worth it.

What I'm worried about are some of the issues people are reporting after having their digital boards replaced. Seems like most have been able to correct these problems by tweaking the SM (like Cheezemo suggested above).

Have there been any reports of "unfixable" problems after swapping the digital board or "permanently" degraded PQ?

BTW, the only SM tweak I've made on my HLP is to set Gamma to 0. So far I've been happy with the change.

I guess I'm just looking for a good summary of the pros / cons of upgrading firmware.

Thanks for the help.

Eric

Apothecon

02-09-05, 03:46 PM

Can anyone summarize their service menu tweaks thus far ? All I have seen so far is setting gamma to zero.Are there any other parameters that can at least be adjusted without harm ?

zlindsay328

02-09-05, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by EricScott
What are people's thoughts on trying to request a firmware upgrade for my 5063?

I got my set in mid June - firmware 1013. I had the light engine replaced when I had 3BL but otherwise the set has been trouble free (except for smudges now and then which I've learned to deal with). Wondering if it is worth requesting an upgrade to a newer firmware version. I'm pretty annoyed that I can't get my HDMI discreet to work. My DVI discreet works fine but I really need both to work.

Plus if the PQ is improved, I figure it's worth it.

What I'm worried about are some of the issues people are reporting after having their digital boards replaced. Seems like most have been able to correct these problems by tweaking the SM (like Cheezemo suggested above).

Have there been any reports of "unfixable" problems after swapping the digital board or "permanently" degraded PQ?

BTW, the only SM tweak I've made on my HLP is to set Gamma to 0. So far I've been happy with the change.

I guess I'm just looking for a good summary of the pros / cons of upgrading firmware.

Thanks for the help.

Eric

I got a board upgrade in September because of sync problems I was having. I also had firmware 1013 and went to 1028. I would say that the picture quality was actually abit better...after poking in the service menu it looks like they made alot of changes to it between those versions. I do have other problems that were introduced with my new boards that will probably result in another swap out, but I plan on waiting until this get all of this discrete nonsense straitened out before I call.

My recommendation would be to wait until all or most of the known problems disappear since you warranty will be good until what...august if you registered online. You may introduce more problems then you solve.

pros-
better picture quality/firmware more optimized
overscan controls for computer hookup
possible HDMI discrete

cons-
potential green tint issue
might lose DVI discrete/discretes not consistent and not all functioning
sometimes entire screen turns red upon turning on (prob I have)
on/off melody might not work on shutdown

EricScott

02-09-05, 09:51 PM

zlindsay,

Thanks for the post - very helpful. I agree that it makes sense to wait a little while since my warranty doesn't expire until Sept. If i had to choose between having the HDMI or DVI discrete, I'd take the DVI since my 8300 STB is hooked up to that and i use it a lot more than the s97 hooked up to HDMI.

Did you have to tweak the SM after getting the new digital board or did you just tweak the user menu controls?

Obviously i don't want to mess with a perfectly good display but if i can improve my PQ it makes sense, especially since i was in a very early batch of 5063s

Can any ISF calibrators comment on which firmware versions are "better" PQ wise?

Are there any incompatability issues between certain version of firmware and different light engines or other components in the TV?

Cheezmo

02-10-05, 09:27 AM

For calibration, version 1024 or later is better, since the CCA menu includes parameters to calibrate the primary/secondary colors. That is very important for these sets as the green primary by default is very oversaturated (leading to "lime/flourescent" greens and yellows). These are the first consumer level sets that allow that kind of calibration and the results in terms of color accuracy are amazing.

grego27

02-10-05, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Cheezmo
Those banding problems can be a result of the SEQ_SELECT service mode parameter being set wrong. I believe it should be 8 (at least it is on mine), but after a digital board replacement it can come defaulting to 5 which causes all kinds of bad banding/dithering effects.

I checked the settings and it is on 8 not 5.

The BB tech came out today and turned the color all the way down to B&W and didnt see any green in the pic, so he says the tv is working fine, but I still have the banding problem and the green tint.

Any thoughts?

bojangling

02-10-05, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by EricScott
I got my set in mid June - firmware 1013. I had the light engine replaced when I had 3BL but otherwise the set has been trouble free (except for smudges now and then which I've learned to deal with).

Eric, why live with the smudge problem? Have you requested the new screen from Samsung that fixes the smudges?

EricScott

02-10-05, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by bojangling
Eric, why live with the smudge problem? Have you requested the new screen from Samsung that fixes the smudges?

I rarely get the smudges. Maybe once a week if I leave my window open and they go away quickly. Honestly, having them open up my set, take apart the screens and put it back together is likely to cause more headaches than the smudges currently cause me.

I didn't realize that people have reported an actual fix to the smudges - thought they still come back?

The digital boards are another story. There is no aligning, etc necessary - just slide in a new board. Granted you need to recalibrate but if I were to get a titled image or something like that from a replaced screen it woudl drive me nuts.

htwaits

02-10-05, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by EricScott
Granted you need to recalibrate but if I were to get a titled image or something like that from a replaced screen it woudl drive me nuts.
If you replace the light engine a tilted image could be a problem but I can't figure out how replacing the screen could do that.

On the other hand there is a very strong possibility of getting household junk on the new screen if the technician isn't very careful with his "screen hygiene". :D

EricScott

02-10-05, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by htwaits
If you replace the light engine a tilted image could be a problem but I can't figure out how replacing the screen could do that.

On the other hand there is a very strong possibility of getting household junk on the new screen if the technician isn't very careful with his "screen hygiene". :D

Yeah exactly. Or fingerprints or something. To me it's just not worth it.

canaugle

02-10-05, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by EricScott
I rarely get the smudges. Maybe once a week if I leave my window open and they go away quickly. Honestly, having them open up my set, take apart the screens and put it back together is likely to cause more headaches than the smudges currently cause me.

I didn't realize that people have reported an actual fix to the smudges - thought they still come back?

Yes. There is now a fix for the smudges. At least a few here have had it done and reported that the smudges are gone. Even the support Q&A on Samsung's website acknowledges that they have a fix.

I'm arranging a fix for mine, waiting for my local tech to call me back. I have smudges every day so I'm going to go ahead and get it fixed.

bojangling

02-10-05, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by EricScott
Yeah exactly. Or fingerprints or something. To me it's just not worth it.

Sounds right, if you can live with it, don't mess with it. Sometimes I wish I didn't follow these threads, they make me see things I'm not conviced I would otherwise.

However, if you follow the "Smudge" thread, most people have the technician load up white or blue screens from the Service Menu and make sure no hair/dust is trapped in. In fact, some people have had items on their screen removed, items originally on the screen after being disturbed during shipping!

You mentioned not having a discrete code for HDMI, what type of remote do you use? Just curious.

EricScott

02-10-05, 04:29 PM

MX-500. But I program the discretes using a One For All 6131 (IIRC). Program the advanced codes into that and then teach them to the MX-500.

Don't have one of the fancy computer based remotes.

grego27

02-11-05, 09:00 AM

Does anyone know what would be the cause or fix for a ghosting problem. I tried the THX tests and noticed that the white lettering all had a ghosting to the right of the words. Anyone have any ideas?

Cheezmo

02-11-05, 09:17 AM

Hard to say without seeing it. Is the ghosting a couple of pixels, or bigger than that.

If bigger, it sounds like some kind of optical issue (screen layers separated or something), or perhaps a serious cable problem.

If smaller, it could be edge enhancement, turn off DNIe, Digital NR, and reduce sharpness and see if that changes it.

grego27

02-11-05, 11:47 AM

It is bigger than a couple of pixels. I saw it before on my sat , but I figured it was just th s-video connection. I used the dvd with the component connections and it is still there.
I had the BB tech out yesterday, should I call Samsung now and do you think they will be more knowledgable about my problems?

tigerfan_9

02-11-05, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Old^Style
I have a motorola Moxi HD/DVR Cable box, and the 4663w. For some reason when i set the cable box to 720p the tv will not accept it. But with it is set to 1080 it does accept it. currently it is going through the component cables because my cable company hasyet to activate the DVI port on the back of the cable box. Originally posted by Cheezmo

That is a known issue and if your firmware version is 33 or later, a technician can fix it with some service mode adjustments. If you have an earlier firmware version you'll need a digital board upgrade. In any event, contact Samsung and arrange for a service call, they should have a technical bulletin on that issue.

Cheezmo - does this effect all types of motorola STB's trying to output at 720p and does it effect everything that you try to input into the TV at 720p? I had a similar problem with a moto HD/DVR STB when i set it to output at 720p and it went blank but it works on 1080i....will the same thing happen with something else at 720p (XBOX, etc) or just moto STB??

thanks

Cheezmo

02-11-05, 04:37 PM

Just Motorola STB's. Some timing thing isn't quite to spec or something. The newer firmware versions on the Samsung's have some new parameters that enable the technician to tweak it to accept what the Motorola is outputting.

bruce73

02-11-05, 06:25 PM

tigerfan_9 and Cheezmo:

Just to add from my own experience: neither the Motorola 6200 nor the Motorola BMC-9012 (MOXI) could output to my 5063 (b. 1024) at 720p, but only via component. I have the moto 6200 outputting 720p via DVI with no problem (the DVI port on the MOXI isn't enabled yet). As Cheezmo states, it has to do with the Motorola boxes being out of spec at this resolution. I believe there's some discussion of this in the HDTVoice.com forum as well.

grego27

02-11-05, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by Cheezmo
Hard to say without seeing it. Is the ghosting a couple of pixels, or bigger than that.

If bigger, it sounds like some kind of optical issue (screen layers separated or something), or perhaps a serious cable problem.

If smaller, it could be edge enhancement, turn off DNIe, Digital NR, and reduce sharpness and see if that changes it.

It is bigger than a couple of pixels. I saw it before on my sat , but I figured it was just th s-video connection. I used the dvd with the component connections and it is still there.
I had the BB tech out yesterday, should I call Samsung now and do you think they will be more knowledgable about my problems?

drjeckl

02-13-05, 07:48 PM

Folks, on a different yet related topic, I spent several hours yesterday with DVE. The Sammy manual (5063W) said that there is a "Custom" settings that one can create for specific settings, in addition to Dynamic, Cinema, and Standard. For the life of me, I couldn't get a "Custom" setting going. I picked Dynamic and changed those parameters. Any clue on how to do "Custom"?

Also, since the settings were done on the HDMI connector where my DVP-NS975V is connected, is it reasonable to copy the same settings to the DVI connector where I have the HR10-250?

Also, Cheezmo, what would be an average charge to get ISF collaboration? How long does it take?

Thanks...jce

Cheezmo

02-13-05, 07:56 PM

It usually takes about 3 hours. Calibrators usually publish their rates on their WWW sites, I'd refer you to those.

gimphboi

02-14-05, 12:23 PM

Is a light engine replacement the only way to get the firmware upgraded?

Do the Samsung DLP's support a firmware flash from a PC or something. I know the HLP's have a service jack on the back, I was just wondering what if any purpose it served.

I had my HLP5063 (1013 firmware) calibrated two week ago, unfortunately I lacked the newer controls contained in the CCA menu, so the calibration was not as precise as it could have been had I had a newer firmware.

Thoughts...

-Tony

EricScott

02-14-05, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by gimphboi
Is a light engine replacement the only way to get the firmware upgraded?

Actually the light engine has nothing to do with the firmware. I had my LE replaced a few months ago and my firmware stayed the same - 1013. You need to have your digital circuit boards replaced. Haven't had that done yet but I plan to at some point. AFAIK, you need to change the hardware to get newer firmware - no way to flash it. Seems pretty stupid from Samsung's perspective - having to open the TV, remove a part, replace it and put the thing back together takes time and costs $$.

collinp

02-15-05, 10:17 PM

drjeckl

02-16-05, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by drjeckl
Folks, on a different yet related topic, I spent several hours yesterday with DVE. The Sammy manual (5063W) said that there is a "Custom" settings that one can create for specific settings, in addition to Dynamic, Cinema, and Standard. For the life of me, I couldn't get a "Custom" setting going. I picked Dynamic and changed those parameters. Any clue on how to do "Custom"?

Also, since the settings were done on the HDMI connector where my DVP-NS975V is connected, is it reasonable to copy the same settings to the DVI connector where I have the HR10-250?

Also, Cheezmo, what would be an average charge to get ISF calibration? How long does it take?

Thanks...jce

Thanks Cheezmo for the calibration info. Anybody have advice on my other settings questions?

smu1997

02-16-05, 10:35 AM

Last night went into the service menu and changed the gamma from 2 to zero. I used the HDNetTest Pattern to set the contrast, brightness, color, and sharpness. Changed my output of my Tivo from 1080i to 720p. Changed the TV from wide screen to expanded. I noticed a dramatic difference in my HD picture quality (Bikini Destinations). I wanted thank all of you who have contributed to this post ... I was wondering if there are any more tips to tuning the TV... Also, if someone has the time to explain in laymen’s terms why changing the gamma from 2 to 0, the Tivo output from 1080i to 720p, and the set from wide to expanded improves the picture.

Thanks,

Iceblade

02-16-05, 10:51 AM

The short and sweet answers are:

1.) Gamma (This was for the HLN sets at least)
0 = Film Production
1 = Graphics
2 = Video Production
3 = forget it, no gamma correction
4 = Samsung's Gamma table

2.) 720p is the native rez of your set. You should ALWAYS feed your tv the native rez if you can as it will not then have to convert the incoming rez (1080i before you changed it) into 720p and possibly degrading the pic.

3.) Expand - This mode was DESIGNED to produce 1:1 pixel mapping on your screen with little to no overscan. i.e. every pixel that is input is displayed in a 1:1 ratio on the screen... no scaling... what you put in is what you see.

Hope that helps,
Jeff

Originally posted by smu1997
Last night went into the service menu and changed the gamma from 2 to zero. I used the HDNetTest Pattern to set the contrast, brightness, color, and sharpness. Changed my output of my Tivo from 1080i to 720p. Changed the TV from wide screen to expanded. I noticed a dramatic difference in my HD picture quality (Bikini Destinations). I wanted thank all of you who have contributed to this post ... I was wondering if there are any more tips to tuning the TV... Also, if someone has the time to explain in laymen’s terms why changing the gamma from 2 to 0, the Tivo output from 1080i to 720p, and the set from wide to expanded improves the picture.

Thanks,

smu1997

02-16-05, 12:02 PM

Thanks Jeff ... Another question that is bothering me. I just went through the last 12 pages of this post and notice that several members posting their contrast and brightness setting were the opposite of what my setting were.
3 members had the following settings:

Contrast - 90-95
Brightness - 50-60
Sharpness - 0

Contrast: 90
Brightness: 45
Sharpness: 0
Color: 38

Contrast: 90
Brightness: 40
Color: 50
Sharpness: 0

My settings are as follows:
Contrast: 20
Brightness: 80
Sharpness: 0
Color: 50

Iceblade

02-16-05, 12:05 PM

Wow dude, those settings sound pretty screwed up. Your overall dynamic range is super tiny with contrast that low, and pushing brightness way the hell up just makes everything into swirly little grey gnats. Have you tried matching your settings more towards the other people's? Have you messed around in the service menu or something? What gamma are you running?

Regs,
Jeff

smu1997

02-16-05, 12:25 PM

My gamma is set to 0. I’m using HDMI for TIVO, DVI for DVD (HD841), and Component for XBOX. Tonight I will try changing the setting ... I remember when I brought my first rear projection HDTV (Toshiba 50h81) in October of 2001. Most members were setting their contrast fairly low and their brightness high. I always thought torch mode meant having the contrast set very high.

Cheezmo

02-16-05, 12:34 PM

When it comes to setting contrast, CRT based displays are completely different animals from fixed pixel displays like DLP.

There is no such thing as "torch mode" to worry about on DLP's as there can be no burn in or "distortion" caused by high contrast. What you do have to watch out for is white clipping if you set contrast too high.

Contrast on a Samsung should usually be OK, up around 90, then set brightness as necessary. There are test patterns on various test pattern DVD's, HDNet, etc. that can help with this.

Riley9208

02-17-05, 11:05 AM

I just got a new light engine installed in hopes of getting rid of banding and excessive greens in the blacks. It seems to have helped a bit but I'm still not 100% satisfied with the dark scenes. Interestingly, the tech said he replaced my old "Version 4" light engine with a brand new "Version 8". Does this mean anything to anyone?

Believe it or not, with the new LE, HD network TV ("24", "Lost", "Alias") looks a lot better on my set in Cinema mode with the brightness up around 80 and contrast around 40. I can read both the "0" and the "10" on the HDNet test patterns with these settings. So, I really can't argue with smu's settings. If I have to put up with a few "gnats" I will to get some better PQ for the darker scenes.

HD sports is another story. I switch to "standard"; where I have set the brightness to around 50 and contrast to around 70. No complaints here. Live sports and bright scenes look consistently great.

(HLP-5063, July, 2004 build; HD-TiVo via HDMI)

EricScott

02-17-05, 11:18 AM

Wow. They have 8 version of LEs for the HLPs? Wonder which one I have - probably vesion 2.

1Mark1

02-17-05, 02:23 PM

I turned on my 5063W today and all I got was the green blinking lamp light. While waiting for a call back from the service center CC set up for me I unplugged my TV and plugged it back in and it came on. Should I still have them look at my set if they ever call back? I have had NO problems out of this set at all until now. I do have around 3500 hours on the bulb because I leave it on most the time as primary PC monitor.

JoeSchueller

02-17-05, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Iceblade

2.) 720p is the native rez of your set. You should ALWAYS feed your tv the native rez if you can as it will not then have to convert the incoming rez (1080i before you changed it) into 720p and possibly degrading the pic.

While it is true, the native resolution is 720p, I believe you have to let the best scalar/deinterlacer in your component stream do the conversion to 720p. If you believe your STB will do a better job than your TV in scaling/deinterlacing the signal, then set your STB to output only 720p. However, if you believe, as I do, that the digital image processing in your HLP is superior to your STB, then I would recommend setting your STB to pass through the native resolution and let your HLP handle the scaling and deinterlacing when needed.

Your rule of thumb presumes the STB will do a better job processing the signal up or down to 720p. This isn't universally true.

This is, of course, a big beef among D* customers because the HR10-250 won't automatically pass thru native resolutions. You have to change them manually.

Cheezmo

02-17-05, 03:44 PM

One thing to be aware of on Samsung DLP's is that with 1080i you are stuck with 4% overscan, while with 720p (over DVI/HDMI) you can get 1.5% overscan. Without any other obvious scaling issues, that is pretty significant factor to me.

Originally posted by JoeSchueller
While it is true, the native resolution is 720p, I believe you have to let the best scalar/deinterlacer in your component stream do the conversion to 720p. If you believe your STB will do a better job than your TV in scaling/deinterlacing the signal, then set your STB to output only 720p. However, if you believe, as I do, that the digital image processing in your HLP is superior to your STB, then I would recommend setting your STB to pass through the native resolution and let your HLP handle the scaling and deinterlacing when needed.

Your rule of thumb presumes the STB will do a better job processing the signal up or down to 720p. This isn't universally true.

This is, of course, a big beef among D* customers because the HR10-250 won't automatically pass thru native resolutions. You have to change them manually.

Iceblade

02-17-05, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by JoeSchueller

This is, of course, a big beef among D* customers because the HR10-250 won't automatically pass thru native resolutions. You have to change them manually.

Exactly. It's also a big beef of mine with regards to my Samsung TS160. I don't fault the ancient DTC100 I also use for not having passthrough, but come ON... switching rez with a physical switch on the BACK of the damn receiver is just assinine. These type of things are the things that make me wonder if the guys in Korea ever bother to setup the equipment in a real world environment instead of on the lab table. Crawling behind the box to switch rez every damn time is beyond bad design. I feel sorry for anyone who has one of these in a custom builtin environment.

There... now I feel better. :)

With regards to the thread itself, what Joe said is the right way to go. Set the box to passthrough and let the tv do the job better. Unless you are running a kick a$$ outboard scaler before you get to the tv, you're better off letting the tv handle things. I haven't heard of a cable box, DSS box or any other tv tuner type box that has a better scaler than the tv's. Equal quality? Sure. Better? No.

Regs,
Jeff

JoeSchueller

02-17-05, 04:44 PM

I wasn't aware of the overscan factor. Thx for the info Steve!

Turbo X

02-18-05, 09:24 AM

All your questions on TV's and which one is the best?
goto (extremetech) hit tab (3d graphics / audio & HDTV) scroll down to Display Technologies part 1-4. this will help you adjust your tv and explain the difference between the sets.

EricScott

02-18-05, 09:33 AM

Here is the link to what Turbo X is describing (haven't read it yet)

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1752680,00.asp

dslee

02-20-05, 12:40 PM

Hi, I'm having trouble viewing hdtv over component video with my 5063. I don't know which Picture Size to use. The choices I get are : wide, panorama, zoom1, zoom2, 4:3. Zoom1 seems to be the best, but it cuts off the top and bottom slightly.

I could use 4:3 but then there are black boxes on all 4 sides. I'd like to be able to view the picture using as much viewable area as possible.

Can anyone tell me which one I should be using?

Thanks!
David

Cheezmo

02-20-05, 01:11 PM

If you are viewing true HD over component, and your STB is outputing 720p or 1080i, you need to use the Wide setting. If you are seeing all the zoom settings, I suspect your STB may not be actually outputing HD. When the TV sees 720p or 1080i, it only offers the Wide and 4:3 modes.

decadenza

02-20-05, 05:11 PM

My experiences with my 5063W and some questions

I bought a 5063W in November from Circuit City. I'm an electronics nut, which in my circle of friends makes me an expert, but here pretty much a greenhorn. You can add to that even less knowledge about display devices, including computer monitors.

From the start I had picture quality problems, but to this day I still don't know what to expect from this television. My main problems are exteme pixelation in area where there is fog, smoke, shadows, or reflected light. Sometimes there is banding as well. I also had some sound sync problems that many of you are familiar with.

My first mistake was to go by someone's service menu tweaks here and didn't write down the settings. Luckily, I did no serious harm, although I assume there is some degradation of picture quality due to idiocy.

My connections are: Xbox by component, DVD by component, satellite by S Video.

I then thought I'd get it calibrated on my dime. There are three ISF guys in my area. I called one guy who used to be a customer of mine who knows a lot, but also is pretty opinionated about equipment. I told him I was trying to order a DVD with DCDi and a DVI connection, but there were few, and fewer in stock. I told him I had ordered a Zenith 318.

His reply was that I was only going to get limited results from a "cheap" TV and a "cheap" DVD player. Although I understand people have varying opinions about electronics quality, I privately felt that although normal people know a good picture when they see one, they hardly notice all the subtleties that an ISF calibrator would see. I wasn't calling him to get the best picture available through technology today, I was calling him to get the best picture with the equipment that I currently own.

The second ISF guy told me that DLP's can't be calibrated by him, and a bad picture is a service issue. This seems in direct contrast to the ISF guys here.

So I called Samsung just to see what they said. There were no service centers in my area. They would have a service contractor call me. The third ISF guy called me back over a week after I left a message (!). By this time, Samsung was already sending a guy out, and I told him I would wait.

The contractor contracted for my area only worked 9-5 M-F, so I had to take a precious day off of work. He then was delayed because of another job and I told him I understood. Our 12 PM appointment turned into 4 PM.

Talking by phone earlier, he felt it was the DLP engine, so he preordered one. He brought it with him. I had problem images paused on Tivo and two DVD players (component, and DVI on the 318), but he went ahead and started to replace the engine right away. He said Samsung had so many TVs it was hard to keep track of them all.

He had problems accessing the service menu because he didn't know to turn the melody off. This bothered me a little, but I couldn't say anything because I wasn't supposed to know this information. He put some settings in that he read off of a piece of paper.

We then looked at my images. Right away I saw some problems with the Panasonic E80H DVD recorder (which I'm not wild about). The E80 outputs at 420P, and you can do some settings in the player (black levels), but I hate the controls, and the quality seems iffy. I had chosen Silence of the Lambs because it had some dark scenes, and on the Panasonic, there were some problems with trails left by moving figures. I want to say he said it was a video syncing issue, but I don't remember and I'm not knowledgeable about it.

It was getting to be after five, and my impression was that he was getting restless, as his last job had took him hours over what he had thought it had should have. He told me to put the Lambs disc into the 318 (which I didn't upconvert), which had none of the trailing problems (but it did have the pixelation problems that have plagued all sources).

I then told him about audio syncing problems, and showed him some Tivo recordings. He had nothing to say. I then prompted him by saying that I thought I had seen a sound delay setting in the SM. He didn't know where it was, and I couldn't tell him because I wasn't supposed to know, so that took about 10 minutes. He then didn't realize that settings for each source had to be set up separately, so syncing was off in various ways from source to source.

Although I didn't see much improvement in picture quality, he told me that the problem was fixed. When I politely disagreed, he told me that since the regular TV menu showed up clear over any image, that other problems were because my source equipment had various flaws.

He then gave me a piece of paper with settings that apparently came with the engine. It consisted of the color settings for CCA (Which I assume is the engine), an index delay setting, and an actuator setting.

So that's my long story. Here's my questions for those of you kind enough to answer.

1. The contractor didn't set the CCA settings for each input. Aren't they all supposed to correspond to the settings that came with the engine?

2. Are all inputs settings the same at factory? In other words, I originally changed settings for component, but not DVI. Could I use the DVI settings for component?

3. Was he right that a cleary rendered TV menu means that the problem is with my sources?

4. . I still have the pixelation problems. I went to Circuity City yesterday and the same set there didn't seem to have the problem. It was a high definition component connection that I don't currently have. Could that be normal and I will have to live with it? If not, where do i go now? Circuit City refuses to talk about it.

Thanks.

collinp

02-20-05, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by decadenza
My experiences with my 5063W and some questions
From the start I had picture quality problems, but to this day I still don't know what to expect from this television. My main problems are exteme pixelation in area where there is fog, smoke, shadows, or reflected light. Sometimes there is banding as well. I also had some sound sync problems that many of you are familiar with.

Could you describe your issue in greater detail. There are a lot of ways to interpret "extreme pixelization". Is it noticeable pixel structure in the fine detail? Is it large slow moving blocks of color? Is it lots of fine grained noise in the chroma? How severe is the problem? Would a casual viewer notice it or only a videophile?

Originally posted by decadenza

My first mistake was to go by someone's service menu tweaks here and didn't write down the settings. Luckily, I did no serious harm, although I assume there is some degradation of picture quality due to idiocy.

Doh! Live and learn. Unfortunately every set has different defaults.

Originally posted by decadenza

My connections are: Xbox by component, DVD by component, satellite by S Video.

Could you be more specific here too. Which DVD player? You mention Tivo below, is the satellite through a Tivo? If so what kind of Tivo SA or DirecTivo?

Originally posted by decadenza

His reply was that I was only going to get limited results from a "cheap" TV and a "cheap" DVD player. Although I understand people have varying opinions about electronics quality, I privately felt that although normal people know a good picture when they see one, they hardly notice all the subtleties that an ISF calibrator would see. I wasn't calling him to get the best picture available through technology today, I was calling him to get the best picture with the equipment that I currently own.

Well yes the Samsung is a cheap TV. They have occasional build quality issues and mediocre support. The core engine, however, is quite capable. The DLP chip and controller are all TI and the color wheel is built to TI reference. The optics are Samsung's and there were some internal reflection issues in earlier models. The HLPs have no serious internal reflection issues, but brightness uniformity has decreased due I guess to smaller cabinet size. The deinterlacing and scaling engines are mid grade. They're by no means lousy, but they don't come anywhere close to rivaling a dedicated scaler. Anyway, these are very capable sets and once tuned by someone who knows what they're doing can look very, very good. Videophile grade front projectors use very similar technology.

The Zenith on the other hand is, well uhm, not good. I believe this player is subject to the Faroujda macroblocking bug. If this is the source you are seeing the "extreme pixelization" on then I bet that's your problem. Currently you need to spend significant cash to get a good digital player.

My recommended player options :

<$500 range : Sony 975 via DVI RGB 480p mode only (upconverted modes have a color shift error)
Used Panasonic RP82/XP30/XP50/Denon 1600 etc. via component 480p
(highly regarded inexpensive component players from a few years back)
$1000 range : Pioneer Elite 59AVi (very solid player, some minor chroma combing issues)
$2000 range : Onkyo SP1000
SDI modifiied player and external scaler (I use an RP82 variant through a DVDO iScan)

Originally posted by decadenza

The second ISF guy told me that DLP's can't be calibrated by him, and a bad picture is a service issue. This seems in direct contrast to the ISF guys here.

Well he's probably just being realistic. These new digital sets are significantly different beasts than old analog sets and he probably didn't have the experience/training on them. The CCA mode alone is a whole new world in calibration.

Originally posted by decadenza

We then looked at my images. Right away I saw some problems with the Panasonic E80H DVD recorder (which I'm not wild about). The E80 outputs at 420P, and you can do some settings in the player (black levels), but I hate the controls, and the quality seems iffy. I had chosen Silence of the Lambs because it had some dark scenes, and on the Panasonic, there were some problems with trails left by moving figures. I want to say he said it was a video syncing issue, but I don't remember and I'm not knowledgeable about it.

It was getting to be after five, and my impression was that he was getting restless, as his last job had took him hours over what he had thought it had should have. He told me to put the Lambs disc into the 318 (which I didn't upconvert), which had none of the trailing problems (but it did have the pixelation problems that have plagued all sources).

Trails left by moving figures, hmm. Combing perhaps from a crappy deinterlacer? Try sending 480i out of the Panasonic and enabling film mode on the TV.

The pixelization problems plague all sources, hmm. I want to say you're seeing the Faroujda macroblocking bug, but that problem should only affect the 318. The Faroujda macroblocking bug is a nasty problem inherent in the Faroujda silicon used in many upconverting players. It manifests itself as large slow moving blobs of color. The problem is most noticeable in shadows or highly saturated areas of color. The red walls of Palpatine's office in Episode II for example look like they are covered by a large blocky amoeba.

Originally posted by decadenza

I then told him about audio syncing problems, and showed him some Tivo recordings. He had nothing to say. I then prompted him by saying that I thought I had seen a sound delay setting in the SM. He didn't know where it was, and I couldn't tell him because I wasn't supposed to know, so that took about 10 minutes. He then didn't realize that settings for each source had to be set up separately, so syncing was off in various ways from source to source.

There are many parts to the audio sync issues.

1. Sources vary in their sync accuracy. Most TV feeds (even HD) have terrible sync. DVDs are better, though some still have mastering issues or poor ADR.

2. Deinterlacing and upconversion require a certain amount of buffering for the algorithms to work, this adds a certain amount of delay to the video signal. 3:2 inverse telecine (film mode) is the worst culprit. This means that audio fed to an external amplifier can often be ahead of the video. This is not a Samsung specific problem, but a problem with many HDTVs, particularly the fixed pixel variants. Many modern receivers/video processors are adding adjustable delays to handle this.

3. Early Samsung models did not properly account for the video delay when sending audio to the built in speakers. This was remedied in the HLNW1 & HLP series. The audio delay setting you found in the SM controls the amount of delay added to the audio signal before it is sent to the built in speakers.

Originally posted by decadenza

1. The contractor didn't set the CCA settings for each input. Aren't they all supposed to correspond to the settings that came with the engine?

The CCA settings are global.

Originally posted by decadenza

2. Are all inputs settings the same at factory? In other words, I originally changed settings for component, but not DVI. Could I use the DVI settings for component?

No the settings are different for each input. The settings are also different per set.

Originally posted by decadenza

3. Was he right that a cleary rendered TV menu means that the problem is with my sources?

Not really. If the TV menu wasn't rendered correctly there would definitely be a problem with the set. The TV menu however is not going to test if the inputs are tuned right.

Originally posted by decadenza

4. . I still have the pixelation problems. I went to Circuity City yesterday and the same set there didn't seem to have the problem. It was a high definition component connection that I don't currently have. Could that be normal and I will have to live with it? If not, where do i go now? Circuit City refuses to talk about it.

Since you've had the engine replaced and still see a problem, I too am suspicious of your sources. I think you need to describe the problem in more detail before we can get to the heart of the issue.

- Collin