Gary--- I have the same setup as you do....I'm going to try it !!
Thanks,
Dan

Originally posted by gdemott
For those of you with a iScanHD+ and a DirecTv HD Receiver/DVR (HR10-250).....
This may work with other HDCP sources!
....
....
...
Here's what happening:
iScanHD+ setting

DVDO manual
HDCP Mode OFF
HDCP is disabled at the iScan HD+'s DVI input. Some sources will turn off HDCP in this case the iScan HD+ will drive a non-HDCP DVI display or analog display.

So the Hughes will output HDMI output if it detects a non HDCP device.

My new configuration:

HR10-250 via 1080i HDMI -> iScanHD+ 720p -> INPUT A Computer

Awesome !

Gary

Brian (usabrian), have you had both your coffee and wheaties this morning?

Ok, maybe I did a poor description of what I am getting at. Take your projector and make it produce the blackest full-field black you can. I attempted this my creating and wallpapering a graphic using 0,0,0 RGB color in Microsoft Paint. My desktop is already void of anything and the taskbar is hidden.

This position told me how dark I could get as a frame of reference for material coming across the Input-A using PC-RGB. Now, if I load my Avia disk into the computer and play it using PowerDVD I then put up a 'Chapter #7 (Gray Steps and Ramps), and play either Vertical or Horizontal 10-IRE Steps'.

This pattern shows IRE bars, horizontally or vertically, in steps of 10-IRE from Zero (0) to 100 IRE. The two darkest bars I think representitive of 0-IRE and 10-IRE. While they are close and very distinguishable on my CRT, they cannot be seen differently on the HS51. I am interpreting this to mean that the minimal light output for black representation is at or above 10-IRE.

Keep in mind that I left this DVD-based material in 4:3 intentionally, because I wanted a frame of reference outside of the DVD presentation area. The darkest it was representing to my eyes was the same on the desktop as was in the two darkest bars on those two Step patterns.

I then decided to see what would happen using something other than my PC. So, I had made Component cable this weekend and connected my Panasonic RP-56 via YPbPr (Component Input) with 480i being transported. I intentionally left the 4:3 DVD format as-is so as to have my frame of reference black outside the DVD content window.

Prior to doing any of this I chose to setup the Br/Cr levels, but the end result was the same as with the PC, and the darkest two IRE Steps in those patterns were indistinguishable, and no lighter or darker than the frame of reference being used. This, in effect, told me what my out of box basement was for blacks.

Now, I am open to experiences, suggestions, and methods for lowering this black level so that minimally the lowest two IRE Steps are distinguishable.

All Ferret is saying is that he put an image on the screen that should be pure black. But when he projects it, he still sees some light coming from the projector. He wishes he could bring that amount of light down a bit. He suggested possibly using a filter.

reaper

Originally posted by TheFerret
<snip>My desktop is already void of anything and the taskbar is hidden.<snip>

@ Ferret:

You realize, even with the taskbar hidden, there is still a sliver that is showing nonetheless. I too have my taskbar hidden, and yet I still make out 2 rows of pixels on the bottom.

Food for thought...


S.Anderson

Actually, I am thinking maybe that it is getting crushed below 10 IRE (i.e. 10 IRE is displaying exactly as 0, so 10 is crushing to 0). Or are you saying that you think 10 IRE is correct but that 0 is just not dark enough?

Are you using overlay or VMR9 via the htpc? PowerDVD may also not be the best player to use. I have had much better experience recently with NVDVD, WinDVD and Dscaler but I use only vmr9 now. Overlay always appeared to crush blacks when I was using it before with my Barco.

Note, I have been without my Sony to play with for a week as I got a destructive streak in me and decided to rip out my rear acoustic ceiling and replace it with sheetrock. Sheetrock dust is everywhere. So I cannot play around and compare exactly what you are doing. Its also frustrating because I received my IMX but have not had a chance to use it...

Brian

S.Anderson, I agree and I have this below the horizon (off the screen). I suppose light scatter in the lens assy and in the dichroic combiner block could result. Maybe I should try the high-contrast back desktop color theme which makes it a black taskbar?

Brain, when I follow the steppings the 10-IRE appears to be correct, but I cannot tell for sure, especially without a method for measuring. For all I know the 10-IRE Step could be 12. LOL

Originally posted by TheFerret
Curious, how does one create a custom resolution in PS to where it will allow non-integer values for refresh/scan rates?
Not easy to describe how to use Powerstrip in a few words. Try PowerStrip Timings 101 (http://www.htpcnews.com/main.php?id=powerstrip_guide_1) at the HTPC News web site.

Originally posted by zeroendless
Perhaps hdmi 720p is not 1:1 mapping (blurring texts) after all or it's not a true 720 panels but bigger ....and hdmi 720p is defaulted to centered timing?
You have found what several of us have reported in the really long "Official" thread. There doesn't seem to be any way to get 1:1 pixel mapping over HDMI. It does not seem to be scaling since the size of objects is the same as 1:1 on Input A, but does seem to be processing the pixels in some way. It seems that every 720P input option except Computer mode on Input A adds the black border and does some type of processing. For some odd reason, even 720P@50Hz on Input A in Computer Mode has the same issues.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Now, I am open to experiences, suggestions, and methods for lowering this black level so that minimally the lowest two IRE Steps are distinguishable.
I don't know anything about PowerDVD. Does it have internal brightness and contrast settings? If so, it might be necessary to adjust those to see all the IRE steps. I use TheaterTek. There is a lot of discussion on their web site about using "scoped settings" to set the brightness and contrast in TT to duplicate the voltages expected by a display. If these settings are not correct, you may not see all the IRE steps no matter how you adjust the display.

I must have tried at least more than 15 P.S preset resolutions for HDMI(Released version Jan 9), while waiting for long vga cable...but none are as sharp as what HDMI/DVI in should be. At one point, i believed only 1776x1000i is the sharper i could get but shifting is off. With "masking" or not, it's not suitable for occasion PC usage, timing seems off.

I didn't follow the long discussion but have briefly went through some of issues before ordered it. VGA in is very good thus it doesn't bother HTPC user that much.

I love how sony provide a correct EDID information unlike the Panny 500 i used to have problem with Nvidia 6800. PS is reading the EDID just fine though i never tested with 6800 just yet. But with borders issues, guess it's useles...

Gary (and anyone else who cares)-- I have the same equipment as Gary (HR10-250, ISCAN HD+, HS51). I tried the inputa connection tonight. I had a hard time finding a SVGA cable longer than 6ft, so I put a compusa 6ft cable with a 6ft extension. Although the 720p banding went away, I liked the HDMI picture much better than the INPUTA. Also, the INPUTA picture had several dark vertical bands along the left 20% of the image. Were my results influenced by the cheap cables ? One question I have is what you meant by " DVDO manual" in your setup instructions ? The rest was straight forward. I also picked the RGB color space in the Iscan.

Based on Gary's and others posts, it seems the VGA input should yeild the best picture, what else should I be doing ?

Thanks--Dan


Originally posted by gdemott
For those of you with a iScanHD+ and a DirecTv HD Receiver/DVR (HR10-250).....
This may work with other HDCP sources!

I am not new to Projection TV and I'm currently on my 4th System. I now have what I consider to be the most impressive, drop dead gorgeous, absolutley jaw dropping picture I have ever seen on ANY Projection system.

My original connection was : HR10-250 -> iScanHD+(set to 720p output) > VPL-HS51 via HDMI

I decided to try the INPUTA - Computer Mode 720P hookup which produced absolutely great results from a Sony RDR-HX900 Dvd player but I quickly found out that when I switched the input source to DVI the iScanHD+ refused to output on the VGA port.

Well guess what? If you configure the iScanHD+ to HDCP OFF you can input a HDMI 1080i signal and OUTPUT to VGA. This works with the Hughes DirecTv Receiver with aweseome results.

Here's what happening:
iScanHD+ setting

DVDO manual
HDCP Mode OFF
HDCP is disabled at the iScan HD+'s DVI input. Some sources will turn off HDCP in this case the iScan HD+ will drive a non-HDCP DVI display or analog display.

So the Hughes will output HDMI output if it detects a non HDCP device.

My new configuration:

HR10-250 via 1080i HDMI -> iScanHD+ 720p -> INPUT A Computer

Awesome !

Gary

Originally posted by mintakaX
One question I have is what you meant by " DVDO manual" in your setup instructions ? The rest was straight forward. I also picked the RGB color space in the Iscan.

Based on Gary's and others posts, it seems the VGA input should yeild the best picture, what else should I be doing ?

Thanks--Dan
I was referring to the DVDO instruction manual and quoting from the manual how to turn OFF HDCP on the INPUT DVI port of the iScanHD+

Prior to discovering this I was unable to output VGA mode from the iScan when feeding a HDMI signal from the Hughes HD Receiver.

BTW,

Did you assign INPUT-A on the Sony to Computer mode? (IMPORTANT!)
Are you outputting 720p from the iScanHD+?

If you still see 720p cropping when using VGA then INPUT-A probably was not set to Computer mode.

Originally posted by jschefdog
I don't know anything about PowerDVD. Does it have internal brightness and contrast settings? If so, it might be necessary to adjust those to see all the IRE steps. I use TheaterTek. There is a lot of discussion on their web site about using "scoped settings" to set the brightness and contrast in TT to duplicate the voltages expected by a display. If these settings are not correct, you may not see all the IRE steps no matter how you adjust the display. Good idea. I had not thought of this. So, let me restore the factory positions for Br/Cr on the HS51 and then give pDVD a whirl.
Originally posted by mintakaX
Gary (and anyone else who cares)-- I have the same equipment as Gary (HR10-250, ISCAN HD+, HS51). I tried the inputa connection tonight. I had a hard time finding a SVGA cable longer than 6ft, so I put a compusa 6ft cable with a 6ft extension. Although the 720p banding went away, I liked the HDMI picture much better than the INPUTA. Also, the INPUTA picture had several dark vertical bands along the left 20% of the image. Were my results influenced by the cheap cables ? One question I have is what you meant by " DVDO manual" in your setup instructions ? The rest was straight forward. I also picked the RGB color space in the Iscan.

Based on Gary's and others posts, it seems the VGA input should yeild the best picture, what else should I be doing ? I have compared both Input-A and Component, and today I will compare them to the HDMI Input. The Component cable length was about 25'. The VGA cable length was traied at both 6', 25', and a whopping 50'. The DVI-to-HDMI cable I will try today is a 5-meter cable.

I originally thought that the HS51 at 720p via HDMI mode was displaying the INPUT without any scaling / processing and was just cropping the edges.

We'll once you see HDMI --> iScanHD+ --> INPUT A VGA there is no doubt that there is some processing going on with the HDMI input of the HS51.

Ok, I connected my PC up to the HS51 using a 5-meter DVI-to-HDMI cable. Desktop, as always, is set to 1280x720. I created a pattern in Microsoft Paint that was also 1280x720, black field, and starting in the upper-left corner I placed color pxiels like this:

W
_W
__W
___W
____G
_____W

I did this with a 1x1 pixels with every 5th pixel being colored green, then blue, then red, then cyan, and then magenta. I saved this as a 24-bit Windows bitmap and used it as a desktop graphic where it was 'centered' (and not tiled or stretched).

This means I was prepared to test out to 25 pixels of cropping. Guess what? I couldn't see these colored pixels at all. Talk about a cropping condition. LOL

And I agree with some other obseervations, too, about the easily observable processing going on in this digital input. My description of what I witnessed with his HS51 and a kind of 2-dimensional dispersion of the pixels was now being seen on mine, but on the HDMI input.

I am curiuos, though. Does Sony (and potentially others) see the HDMI input as being used only for consumer electronics and not computers? Anyway, the dispersion of a pixel cannot be adjusted that I know of, unless someone knows something that I do not.

Now I will go make another pattern to determine exactly the extent of the cropping. Has it been determined that the 720P cropping is the same for all units (i.e. a deliberate configuration in the firmware), or has it been determined, conclusively, to vary from unit to unit?

Okay, this is a bit off-topic but maybe some of you will find this interesting.

While walking back and forth from this computer to my MiniMe room I noticed the Windows screensaver coming on. I usually have this as nothing but a black screen. Well, I decided to try the Marquee. I placed a single character of smallest size in a black background and did a preview.

This screensaver allows you to adjust the speed of the marquee, and also you can center its elevation or have it random. I wonder if this can be used to create artificial panning motion?

Update: I changed the font to Arial Black, Bold, 72 size and used an 'L'. I then set the position to centered and speed to fast. I can see tearing easily. Even under the slowest setting I am seeing some sort of artifact.

Gary--- I'm at work now, but what is the procedure to assign INPUT-A to computer mode ? I'm not sure if I did it or not. I am outputting at 720p. I did not see 720p cropping, however I did see the dark band on the right of the screen (which you mentioned) and fixed that by adjusting the HS51 H size in the signal menu.

Thanks,
Dan


Originally posted by gdemott
I was referring to the DVDO instruction manual and quoting from the manual how to turn OFF HDCP on the INPUT DVI port of the iScanHD+

Prior to discovering this I was unable to output VGA mode from the iScan when feeding a HDMI signal from the Hughes HD Receiver.

BTW,

Did you assign INPUT-A on the Sony to Computer mode? (IMPORTANT!)
Are you outputting 720p from the iScanHD+?

If you still see 720p cropping when using VGA then INPUT-A probably was not set to Computer mode.

First time poster here (long time lurker). Just got my HS51 Monday and am thoroughly enjoying playing with this thing - very nice picture. The only, and I mean only thing that is bugging me right now is an apparent ghosting or ringing around certain objects in different scenes mostly in the background using HDMI from a Sony 975 DVD player set at 1080i. I did a search on this topic and it seemed most were attributing it to sharpness but I've tried changing it from min to max and no difference is observed. I haven't tried Input A yet (maybe tonight) to see if there's a diffference. Anybody have any thoughts? There were a couple posters who brought this up awhile back but I couln't find any resolutions to the problem.

My setup is
Sony HS51 at ~12'
Dalite Hi power 110"
Sony NV 975 DVD player output 1080i
Hypersonic G7 laptop with ATI 9700 pro video card with DVI out (not tried yet)
Dish Network HD receiver ouput component at 1080i

bigt737, don't let some of those DVD's confuse you. I originally thought what I observed to be ringing was in fact EE on Pirates of the Caribbean DVD. BTW, what is your sharpness set to?

bigt737
My guess is that the extra processing going on via the hdmi creates ringing or magnifies any existing edge enhancement.

Brian

1. Enter the Setup Menu
2. Select SETUP
3. On the right Select Input-A Signal Set:
4. Choose Computer

By default Computer is not selected so hopefully this will solve your problem!


Originally posted by mintakaX
Gary--- I'm at work now, but what is the procedure to assign INPUT-A to computer mode ? I'm not sure if I did it or not. I am outputting at 720p. I did not see 720p cropping, however I did see the dark band on the right of the screen (which you mentioned) and fixed that by adjusting the HS51 H size in the signal menu.

Thanks,
Dan

I have a question about the minimum light level output of the HS51 used in the WSR review. It was reported with contrast set to maximum and in low lamp mode the measured amount of light was 0.09L.

If this is the case, and pretty typical of production units such as the one I have, I can only wonder, really wonder, exactly how sensitive to light my eyes are.

If I throw a black (rgb 0,0,0) 720P pattern the amount of light observed seems like more than what I had perceived to be 1/11 of a lumen. :) Has anyone measured the Cr=100/Everything else defaul minimum light level?

I actually ran home and figured this out before I saw this--the default for the input-a is auto, switching it to computer made no difference. I still see some vertical bands on the left side of the image and I am not convinced that the vga is giving better PQ; to my eyes the image seems softer, why might this be ? I guess I need to re-calibrate the contrast,brightnes,etc before making a final judgement. I have ordered a better cable and I have a feeling that will eliminate the VB. On the positive side, It is nice to have the 720p image exactly the right size. I have a couple of questions:

1) When switching projector inputs from HDMI to INPUT-A, the projector takes about a minute to sync up. In this time it makes lots of clicking sounds and flashes wierd pictures on the screen---is this normal ?

2) Is it at all possible that the extra processing going on with the HDMI input could actually improve PQ ? I'll certainly pick the input that looks best to me, regardless of the theory. I can live with the underscan or overscan or whatever is causing the 720p problem.

3) What are the implications (if any) of having the HDCP set to off in the ISCAN HD+ ?

Thanks

Originally posted by gdemott
1. Enter the Setup Menu
2. Select SETUP
3. On the right Select Input-A Signal Set:
4. Choose Computer

By default Computer is not selected so hopefully this will solve your problem!

Mine takes about 2 seconds. No flashing.

Originally posted by mintakaX

1) When switching projector inputs from HDMI to INPUT-A, the projector takes about a minute to sync up. In this time it makes lots of clicking sounds and flashes wierd pictures on the screen---is this normal ?
Thanks

Originally posted by TheFerret
bigt737, don't let some of those DVD's confuse you. I originally thought what I observed to be ringing was in fact EE on Pirates of the Caribbean DVD. BTW, what is your sharpness set to?

Sorry, I got caught up in a phone conference so I'm a little late on the reply. Currently my sharpness is set at 35 but I've tried multiple settings and none have seemed to had any effect on the ringing or EE or whatever it is. The DVD I noticed it the most was Pearl Harbor. Anyone know if EE is a problem with that title?

With HDCP set to ON or AUTO.....

By design if the iScan detects a HDCP signal it must pass that signal along with any processing enhancements to the DVI output port and by design not output to the Analog port.

When set to OFF...
This turns off HDCP at the DVI input.

I'm guessing here....
Some sources that would normally turn on HDCP signal will simply turn off HDCP if a non HDCP display device is detected at the other end. This would allow a Display Device that non-conforms to still be able to display from a HDMI HDCP source.

This works great on the iScan because the Directv HD tuner then stops sending HDCP.

If I'm wrong on this someone please correct me.



Originally posted by mintakaX


3) What are the implications (if any) of having the HDCP set to off in the ISCAN HD+ ?

Thanks

Originally posted by bigt737
First time poster here (long time lurker). Just got my HS51 Monday and am thoroughly enjoying playing with this thing - very nice picture. The only, and I mean only thing that is bugging me right now is an apparent ghosting or ringing around certain objects in different scenes mostly in the background using HDMI from a Sony 975 DVD player set at 1080i. I did a search on this topic and it seemed most were attributing it to sharpness but I've tried changing it from min to max and no difference is observed. I haven't tried Input A yet (maybe tonight) to see if there's a diffference. Anybody have any thoughts? There were a couple posters who brought this up awhile back but I couln't find any resolutions to the problem.

My setup is
Sony HS51 at ~12'
Dalite Hi power 110"
Sony NV 975 DVD player output 1080i
Hypersonic G7 laptop with ATI 9700 pro video card with DVI out (not tried yet)
Dish Network HD receiver ouput component at 1080i




Here's you fix...

http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/DCDA1.ASP

Get a Hdmi to DVI adaptor = $30, buy this.

Go into your Input A on the sony in computer mode, and sit back and injoy the perfect image.

So an answer to your question, If you go into Input A, in computer mode, it will fix all your problems.

P.S., make sure you set the output to 720P

Originally posted by SOWK
Here's you fix...

http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/DCDA1.ASP

Get a Hdmi to DVI adaptor = $30, buy this.

Go into your Input A on the sony in computer mode, and sit back and injoy the perfect image.

So an answer to your question, If you go into Input A, in computer mode, it will fix all your problems.

P.S., make sure you set the output to 720P


Hey SOWK,

How is the ghosting with this "converter"? Also, how long a cable are you using to the projector? Thanks.

S.Anderson

Originally posted by TheFerret
I created a pattern in Microsoft Paint that was also 1280x720, black field, and starting in the upper-left corner I placed color pxiels like this...
The Avia disk has a pixel cropping test pattern that you can use to determine how many pixels are being cropped. I think it is under the "other" test patterns section. On overscan patterns I see about 2.5% cropping for 720P to HDMI, but I haven't checked the pixel count.

Originally posted by mintakaX
I actually ran home and figured this out before I saw this--the default for the input-a is auto, switching it to computer made no difference. I still see some vertical bands on the left side of the image and I am not convinced that the vga is giving better PQ; to my eyes the image seems softer, why might this be ? I guess I need to re-calibrate the contrast,brightnes,etc before making a final judgement. I have ordered a better cable and I have a feeling that will eliminate the VB. On the positive side, It is nice to have the 720p image exactly the right size. I have a couple of questions:

I would question first, whether you have truly synced one to one pixel perfect. While the sony apa will sync up it never seems to get you all the way there. Somebody posted a pattern earlier in this or the other thread that helps you get 1:1.

Originally posted by mintakaX
1) When switching projector inputs from HDMI to INPUT-A, the projector takes about a minute to sync up. In this time it makes lots of clicking sounds and flashes wierd pictures on the screen---is this normal ?

No, this does not sound normal. It sounds like your signal is somehow not standard output and its taking the Sony quite a while to sync up.

Originally posted by mintakaX
2) Is it at all possible that the extra processing going on with the HDMI input could actually improve PQ ? I'll certainly pick the input that looks best to me, regardless of the theory. I can live with the underscan or overscan or whatever is causing the 720p problem.

While it is possible that the pure digital connection even with the processing going on results in a better signal for viewing than a vga (in theory colors and black levels could be truer), it is counterintuitive to me because text looks worse. So if text looks worse you would think the picture would be worse. Truth be told, I was able to switch back and forth between vga and hdmi while watching a movie through Theatertek 2 using my Geforce 6800 and its clone/dual mode. I was hard pressed to tell the difference but I did not play with it long.

Brian

Originally posted by SOWK
Here's you fix...


Get a Hdmi to DVI adaptor = $30, buy this.

Go into your Input A on the sony in computer mode, and sit back and injoy the perfect image.

So an answer to your question, If you go into Input A, in computer mode, it will fix all your problems.

P.S., make sure you set the output to 720P


I thought the DVI output on ATI 9700 cards would do both digital and analog since they can drive a standard monitor with just a cheap DVI- analog adapter that just changes pinouts. What advantage would the converter in your link provide?

Its for people with DVD Players.

Brian

Originally posted by Rieper
Hey SOWK,

How is the ghosting with this "converter"? Also, how long a cable are you using to the projector? Thanks.

S.Anderson

Ghosting, HA. I am a person that would not settle for ghosting. So

AKA. None, as long at you set for the proper APA in computer mode.

Also I am using A Phatty 15' VGA cord, and a 6' monster cable DVI-D cord.

Originally posted by jschefdog
The Avia disk has a pixel cropping test pattern that you can use to determine how many pixels are being cropped. I think it is under the "other" test patterns section. On overscan patterns I see about 2.5% cropping for 720P to HDMI, but I haven't checked the pixel count. I think I know which pattern you are talking about. I found it the other day, but I didn't know if it was useful since that disk was mastered for analog displays.

As a percentage, the issue I got on 1080i was healthy, and on 720P very unhealthy. LOL As such, I thought about whether it was a valid indicator of the condition at hand. Do you see a problem in the approach I took by creating a 1280x720 wallpaper with individual pixels creating a ruler?

"For some odd reason, even 720P@50Hz on Input A in Computer Mode has the same issues."


no. it's just perfect in 720p/50hertz computer (vga).

I think it is safe to say that Sony got no 720P game.

Originally posted by TheFerret
I think I know which pattern you are talking about. I found it the other day, but I didn't know if it was useful since that disk was mastered for analog displays.

As a percentage, the issue I got on 1080i was healthy, and on 720P very unhealthy. LOL As such, I thought about whether it was a valid indicator of the condition at hand. Do you see a problem in the approach I took by creating a 1280x720 wallpaper with individual pixels creating a ruler?
I just checked and the Avia Pixel Cropping pattern is under "Special Tests" which my faulty memory translated to "other" tests. I just checked it out and I think it is assuming a 720x480 DVD resolution, which would make sense. On my setup using 720P HDMI from a DVD player, I'm seeing about 11 cropped pixels top and bottom, and 22 on each side using this pattern. However the overscan pattern shows about 2.5% on each edge, which would be more like 18 pixels top and bottom and 32 pixels each side. Either of these patterns is also handy for centering the image using Adjust Signal. On my setup it was not centered by default on HDMI or Input A.

I don't see anything wrong with your approach, but if you want to compare with others using these patterns on Avia might be easier since many people have it and it can be used on both PCs and DVD players.

Originally posted by Busherie
"For some odd reason, even 720P@50Hz on Input A in Computer Mode has the same issues."

no. it's just perfect in 720p/50hertz computer (vga).
Glad to hear it works for you, but it didn't for me. On my PC, if I set it to exactly 50 Hz, it looked like 720P to HDMI. If I moved off about 1.0 Hz in either direction, the screen would go black for a second and it would restore looking like most settings on Input A (no black borders, 1:1 mapping). I don't use this setting, I only tested it once at the request of someone on the forum, so maybe I missed something. Do you have a HS50 or 51? Maybe they are different.

Mine is perfecto at 720p/50hz as well, hs51/ATI cat 4.11

Originally posted by jschefdog
Glad to hear it works for you, but it didn't for me. On my PC, if I set it to exactly 50 Hz, it looked like 720P to HDMI. If I moved off about 1.0 Hz in either direction, the screen would go black for a second and it would restore looking like most settings on Input A (no black borders, 1:1 mapping). I don't use this setting, I only tested it once at the request of someone on the forum, so maybe I missed something. Do you have a HS50 or 51? Maybe they are different.


hs50 without powerstrip (nvidia drivers)

No problems with HTPC through input-A in either 50 or 60hz for me at least. I have a HS50.

usabrian: Any progress with your IMX lens? I'm for one very interested in hearing your verdict on how much it helps the HS50/51 since im on the verge of ordering one.

Originally posted by Havocsi
No problems with HTPC through input-A in either 50 or 60hz for me at least. I have a HS50.

usabrian: Any progress with your IMX lens? I'm for one very interested in hearing your verdict on how much it helps the HS50/51 since im on the verge of ordering one.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5020065#post5020065



S.Anderson

p.s. I got my IMX lens yesterday. I'll have my verdict by the end of the week (in case anyone cares).

I care, but I would care more if you and the IMX were visiting me. :)

I would love to hear your verdict, Im really interested in ordering one since I at 1.7x viewing distance see SDE from time to time. Nothing a slight off focus cannot fix, but it would be great to not have to worry about that :P

Then a strange occurance I have found out. Currently I use a HTPC on input A, 720p and have used the APA. Then when I have started the HS50 and made the APA and signal fixes I make the small off focus. After about half the movie I often find myself thinking...did I just see some SDE? And then when I pause the movie and goes out to the desktop the HS50 is suddenly better focused than it was when I did the tuning...I find it a bit strange.

Originally posted by Havocsi
No problems with HTPC through input-A in either 50 or 60hz for me at least. I have a HS50.
Interesting. Maybe I made some mistake, or it was something about the Powerstrip preset that I used. Or maybe Sony actually fixed it. My HS-51 is a pretty early unit, one of the first batch from SonyStyle shipped back in late November. Good news for people who need PAL.

Well, I have been using Colorfacts on my HS51 all day today. I have been calibrating using Avia and my DVD for my HDMI output. I plan on also calibrating the component through DVD and I hope to be able to do some work on the VGA. Those with a HTPC will be able to work this much easier. I think I can just get a VGA cable and use my laptop to use Colorfacts and check how good the colors are on HDTV.

Anyway, I have come up with some very interesting findings. I have got the unit to track grayscale very well with the Iris on. I am coming up with about 263 lumens everytime. I also am working with the primaries but I cannot figure how to make RCP work to adjust these. The primaries are all very close although not spot on for SD. The amazing thing is the secondary colors are all almost perfect. Blue is also very close with green being a bit oversaturated and red being a bit more. Anyway, the best CR I have come up with calibrated is around 2800:1. Bear in mind, the standard color meter that comes with Colorfacts is terrible at the lower IREs and I have been told I can add about 500:1 to that number according to an ISF tech friend. A few other findings:

Red Gain can be pushed to about 142 before it runs out at a contrast setting of 80. Even here no clipping but it just quits pushing.

Red Bias is very high on the lower IREs. Why Sony did this, I do not know. I am having to reduce Red Bias into the upper 20s to get a proper calibrated grayscale.

Green and Blue will track perfectly across the range until about 10 IRE.

I am thinking the same old hard and fast rule applies about filtering. A filter to cut Blue and Green will help gain maximum contrast and keep them in line with red but I would be concerned if it cut light output any more than I have now.

Anyway, I have much more to do and cannot spend to much time here. Afterall, I only have this for a month.

Eric, I did play with RCP early-on, but haven't touched it since last Friday. Its weird in the controls, but being able to orient the color pulse focus in location and width for the primaries (cannot remember if its available for the secondaries) was intriguing. I want to see how narrow I could get, but hope this doesn't reduce color resolution if the pie slice is too narrow.

Its interesting about the strong red bias at low IRE. From my PC's black & barren desktop when I open menus from the start button I can easily see a red push initially until the green and blue kick in as brightness increases (and the iris opens).

If you do chose filtration keep in mind the inside lens shroud (focus ring) has that darn spherical outer element, so you will have to mount outside the ring. I measured the ring to be about 74mm yesterday.

Well, I'm up late and got everything satisfactory for HDMI and Component. I have all the values and settings ready to post but I can't just yet. You see, I have been following the Colorfacts thread on the <$3500 forum and I just learned tonight that it is best to aim the meter at the PJ. I did all my readings by aiming at the screen. I am going to wait and rerun everything tomorrow and post my best settings. I will say though I was able to get 2791:1 on CR and that is with a crappy meter. I am being told this will improve even more by aiming at the PJ. This is at a calibrated grayscale reading of 6600K with a delta of 2. Lumens are coming in at 315 and this is measured off the screen. I am guessing this will increase as well when aiming at the PJ. Gamma is 2.52 and Colorfacts standard is 2.5 so I am right on there as well. All my calibrations are done with contrast set to 80. The picture looks awesome so if I can improve my numbers I will but I am almost satisfied with what I have now. If you do not have this PJ set up for proper grayscale, you need to get it done. It is a major improvement. Justa another note, my component settings are very near what the HDMI settings were with a few differences in the Biases. Grayscale actually tracked better on component than it did on HDMI although CR was a bit lower and lumens were as well. Finally I did a set of measurements with the Iris off and the lamp on high. Color temp is a bit cooler and lumens are higher as well but not by as much as I would have figured. CR was 656:1 but this is not an issue for this setting for me as I will use it for video games and ambient light. I did not spend nearly as much time working on this setting either and I am sure I can get better readings for CR with more tweaking.

Hello folks. This is my first post on AVS. However, I have been reading here for quite some time. I currently have a Sony VPL-HS10. I have an HS51 on order. My questions are cable related. I plan on buying a Sony 975 DVD Player and have a Sony DTC-200 HD DTV Box to hook up. My projector is about 25' from my AV Rack. I will also throw an HD Tivo in the mix when the price gets a bit better. I have read that there is some issues with the new HDMI. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I am currently using the cable that came in the box with the HS10. BTW , How much are HS10's bringing in the used market?

I think this should be mentioned in here: I just talked to the guys from benedicus in Germany, they have a colorfiltered and calibrated HS50 which reaches 7000:1 at D65. Anyone considering to add this tweak to his unit?

Damn Eric, I should have told you that from my one previous experience watching someone calibrate my CRT 15-months back. Sorry. Still, I am intrigued by what the numbers are for your settings and such.

Okay, here are my settings.

Disclaimer-These are readings that were taken off the screen at appoximately 18" (Carada 110" Diag BW 1.4 Gain)and not directly from the PJ. The measurements were taken at the default Colorfacts IRE setting of 30IRE and 80IRE. I tried lower and higher IRE values for both but these definitely produced the most even results. These settings are for HDMI and then component. The contrast was set at a default of 80 and I pushed red up as high as it would go before clipping (because fo the definciency) and locked it. Gamma/Black Level is off Iris is on Auto and lamp low. Sharpness is minimum and Color and Tint were set to 50.

HDMI-Brightness set to 60

Red Gain-140
Green Gain-30
Blue Gain-34

Red Bias-88
Green Bias-130
Blue Bias-139

Resulting in 6600K DE:2
Gamma Curve 2.52
Lumens 315

Component-Brightness set to 55

Red Gain-140
Green Gain-29
Blue Gain-33

Red Bias-93
Green Bias-140
Blue Bias-146

Resulting in 6579K DE:2
Gamma Curve 2.4
Lumens 300


As you can see, the gains are very close for both inputs but there is a bit more of a difference in the biases. All of these readings are subject to the errror in this meter. I consistently did Dark Readings to calibrate the meter every 5-10 minutes so I feel pretty confident the readings are as good as I could get with my equipment.

Anyway, feel free to try these but as I learned from trying other settigns that were posted earlier, these may not work for you at all. I know when I tried a few of the calibrated settings I found my picture looked much better using Sony's defaults. Let me know what you think.

PS: I will post my additional findings tonight on the measurements taken directly from the PJ. We can then see if there are any great differences.

Can anyone help me with my post above? Thanks in advance

Originally posted by rcmorgan540
Can anyone help me with my post above? Thanks in advance
I think there was a reported issue when using the DTC-100 STB, but I do not know if this carries into the 200 model. If you use 720P without using the Input-A from a source then you may run into pixel-cropping issues.

I cannot remember which thread someone asked me about the extent of my cropping and/or overscan using the Avia test disk. I am using a Panasonic RP-65 standalone DVD player feeding both 480i and 480P Component directly into the Sony's YPbPr input. Pixel cropping & overscan for the 480i and 480P outputs (from the RP-56):

(Top, Bottom, Left, Right)

>>>480-interlaced output

14, 18, >20, >20 pixels
3, 4, 5, 4.5 percent

>>>480-progressive output
17, 15, >20, >20 pixels
4, 3, 5, 4.5 percent

Rcmorgan540 "Can anyone help me with my post above"?

I am not quite sure what you are asking. Are you asking what brand cables work well with the above equipment? Try bluejeanscable.com you can pick up both 30ft component and HDMI for under $200. I use this length with the same equipment and they work great. Or are you asking what type of cable you should use to attach your equipment? I use HDMI from the Sony 975 DVD Player and component from the HD Tivo. If this does not answer your question please be more specific.

Good Luck

Originally posted by Kevin152
I am not quite sure what you are asking. Are you asking what brand cables work well with the above equipment? Try bluejeanscable.com you can pick up both 30ft component and HDMI for under $200.
You might also want to check RAM Electronics (forum sponsor, see links at top). Both Blue Jeans and RAM have received good reviews in these forums for having good quality cables at reasonable prices. Much cheaper than comparable Monster or boutique cables.

Originally posted by awtryau89
Okay, here are my settings.

Disclaimer-These are readings that were taken off the screen at appoximately 18" (Carada 110" Diag BW 1.4 Gain)and not directly from the PJ. The measurements were taken at the default Colorfacts IRE setting of 30IRE and 80IRE. I tried lower and higher IRE values for both but these definitely produced the most even results. These settings are for HDMI and then component. The contrast was set at a default of 80 and I pushed red up as high as it would go before clipping (because fo the definciency) and locked it. Gamma/Black Level is off Iris is on Auto and lamp low. Sharpness is minimum and Color and Tint were set to 50.

HDMI-Brightness set to 60

Red Gain-140
Green Gain-30
Blue Gain-34

Red Bias-88
Green Bias-130
Blue Bias-139

Resulting in 6600K DE:2
Gamma Curve 2.52
Lumens 315

Component-Brightness set to 55

Red Gain-140
Green Gain-29
Blue Gain-33

Red Bias-93
Green Bias-140
Blue Bias-146

Resulting in 6579K DE:2
Gamma Curve 2.4
Lumens 300


As you can see, the gains are very close for both inputs but there is a bit more of a difference in the biases. All of these readings are subject to the errror in this meter. I consistently did Dark Readings to calibrate the meter every 5-10 minutes so I feel pretty confident the readings are as good as I could get with my equipment.

Anyway, feel free to try these but as I learned from trying other settigns that were posted earlier, these may not work for you at all. I know when I tried a few of the calibrated settings I found my picture looked much better using Sony's defaults. Let me know what you think.

PS: I will post my additional findings tonight on the measurements taken directly from the PJ. We can then see if there are any great differences.

Okay, I pasted my previous results above. Now I have reun everything with the meter pointed at the PJ. The results were different, a bit more conistent and CR really improved. Here are my new settings:

HDMI-Brightness set to 60

Red Gain-140
Green Gain-48
Blue Gain-42

Red Bias-88
Green Bias-128
Blue Bias-136

Resulting in 6527K DE:2
Gamma Curve 2.5
Lumens 362

The most noticeable improvement was in the CR measurement. I am now getting a whopping 3249:1 calibrated at this temp. If you still use the theory that the meter is probably off at the low IREs I am realistically in the 3500-3700:1 range and this is with the Lumens averaging 362. This PJ is not bright but it definitely is not dim either for those of us with dedicated, light controlled rooms. The picture looks outstanding and switching back and forth from my old settings, I can definitely see less red as the settings would indicate. Also another thing I noticed was the primaries seem to be off a bit more by reading straight from the PJ. They are still fairly good but could use some tweaking.

Let me know if this helps anyone.

Thank you Kevin. I bought cable from BJC for my plasma and was very impressed with the quality. I am just use to using that all in one cable with my HS-10. I was going to spring for good cables. I posted that I had a DTC-200. It is actually a Sony HD200 Sat. reciever. Thanks!

Got my projectorand Chief mount kit. The way the top part goes in the ceiling, seems like it can hang all in one floor joist, since they run parallel to the screen. This makes for an easy installation.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Thanks for the effort and for posting your results. Excellent!

I will give them a spin and post some feedback.
Wouldn't your Component sources potentially assist in producing slightly differing results? Not to mention projector differences, too?

awtryau89

Great info. Your comprehensive image review and now detailed tweaking results have been superb.

Originally posted by awtryau89
The most noticeable improvement was in the CR measurement. I am now getting a whopping 3249:1 calibrated at this temp. If you still use the theory that the meter is probably off at the low IREs I am realistically in the 3500-3700:1 range and this is with the Lumens averaging 362.
Eric, did you report what your 'out of the box' CR was? I am curious to know what ballpark I might be observing with my unit.

I accidentally made my above post here instead of the hs51 thread. Sorry.

Before going to work this morning I was playing around trying to document the black level on the HS51. Unlike our eyes, which seem to have light-meters per cone, the 6.3 million pixels in the Nikon D70 have to take a democratic vote as to which the exposure is. So, in reality its actually brighter (high level) than this image once you've spent a minute or do adjusting to my bat cave viewing environment.

http://www.brae.us/tmp/hs51/wbOpt720PDSC0010.jpg

Dang, I didn't realize the compression would granularize the image. Anyway, what I hadn't (consciously) noticed was the subtle coloration which I am sure is a result of the dichroic splitters/combiners. I've seen this in LCoS.

Does anyone know the difference in how B&H differentiates filters between their Color Compensating and Color Conversion filters? I'm trying to make sure I am look at Color Correction? I think its Compensating but would rather avoid a buy&return situation.

BTW, Looking at the Opti-Flex 3x3 CCxxyR filters.

autryau89,

Since the low light level accuracy of the probe is what is in question your actual CR reading of 3249:1 is actually much lower not higher then what you measured ! To more accurately measure the display with your equipment you need to place the probe in a very close proximity to the lens of the projector without going into saturation (approximately 24" should work). Once you have a Black level reading which is higher then the low light level accuracy specification of the probe you will have a much more accurate value to report for the CR then you have been listing in your postings.

To be accurate you actually need to be able to read to at least one order of magnitude greater then the lowest light level to be measured (ie to measure to .01 fL requires accuracy to at least .001 fL). To get accuracy to .001 fL requires extremely pricey instrumentation. I have a PhotoResearch PR-880 which hasa Photomultiplier tube in it and provides accuracy to .001 fL but these instruments sell new for approximately $35,000.00 which is a bit higher then the average enthusiast is willing to spend.


Cliff

Originally posted by ghibliss
autryau89,

Since the low light level accuracy of the probe is what is in question your actual CR reading of 3249:1 is actually much lower not higher then what you measured ! To more accurately measure the display with your equipment you need to place the probe in a very close proximity to the lens of the projector without going into saturation (approximately 24" should work). Once you have a Black level reading which is higher then the low light level accuracy specification of the probe you will have a much more accurate value to report for the CR then you have been listing in your postings.

To be accurate you actually need to be able to read to at least one order of magnitude greater then the lowest light level to be measured (ie to measure to .01 fL requires accuracy to at least .001 fL). To get accuracy to .001 fL requires extremely pricey instrumentation. I have a PhotoResearch PR-880 which hasa Photomultiplier tube in it and provides accuracy to .001 fL but these instruments sell new for approximately $35,000.00 which is a bit higher then the average enthusiast is willing to spend.
Cliff

Cliff, two things:

First, why is it just because the probe is lacking it is automatically assumed by you the projector must be worse? I can say the same for Eric's assumption, but I honestly couldn't draw either conclusion with confidence. How does the probe make the contrast better/worse?

Secondly, I doubt 99.99% of the AVS members on here have access to a $35K probe, and if they did why would they be entertaining the po folks forum? :) Is there someone that rents a $35,000 probe & software kit for 1/10 the projector cost?

But, this is an interesting point. What equipment are the professional calibrators on AVS using? So far we know one person using a $35K probe, but I think most are using equipment much, much less. Still, just because a probe is lacking should one automatically presume the projector must be, too?

Originally posted by awtryau89
Okay, I pasted my previous results above. Now I have reun everything with the meter pointed at the PJ. The results were different, a bit more conistent and CR really improved. Here are my new settings:

HDMI-Brightness set to 60

Red Gain-140
Green Gain-48
Blue Gain-42

Red Bias-88
Green Bias-128
Blue Bias-136

Resulting in 6527K DE:2
Gamma Curve 2.5
Lumens 362

The most noticeable improvement was in the CR measurement. I am now getting a whopping 3249:1 calibrated at this temp. If you still use the theory that the meter is probably off at the low IREs I am realistically in the 3500-3700:1 range and this is with the Lumens averaging 362. This PJ is not bright but it definitely is not dim either for those of us with dedicated, light controlled rooms. The picture looks outstanding and switching back and forth from my old settings, I can definitely see less red as the settings would indicate. Also another thing I noticed was the primaries seem to be off a bit more by reading straight from the PJ. They are still fairly good but could use some tweaking.

Let me know if this helps anyone.

Okay, an all day session. I just could not leave well enough alone. I liked the image I was getting but I noticed too much green and yellows were especially hot. I looked at how Cine4home professed to get almost perfect grayscale and yet their readings were much different than mine. Anyway, after looking into this a good bit further, I realized that my high end red readings wer skewing things way too much. I was trying to find where red clipped at 100 IRE and then work back from there. Anyway, something funny is going on with Sony's Dynamic Video Processing while the Iris is on. I had to puch the red way to high for clipping and in doing this I had to boost green and blue a good bit higher in the mid/lower IREs to get proper tracking. Anyway, I did some very thorough testing and found that red gain is best left at Sony's factory setting of 128. With this setting or maybe 1 or 2 higher, I didn't have to work nearly as hard with green or blue gains. Also on the low end, I actually had to lower red bias a good bit. Green bias was left alone and then blue bias was boosted. Anyway this resulted in the most linear tracking so far. I took 3 different measurements after taking Dark Readings (recalibrating the meter) and they all came out the same so I am fairly confident in these numbers for my set up.

HDMI-Brightness set to 60

Red Gain-128
Green Gain-38
Blue Gain-35

Red Bias-86
Green Bias-128
Blue Bias-136

Resulting in 6478K DE:0
Gamma Curve 2.54
Lumens 345
CR 3196:1

For those of you that would want to use the User Menu, just use Custom 3 and these settings:

Red Gain- 0
Green Gain- +6
Blue Gain- -4

Red Bias- -28
Green Bias- 0
Blue Bias- +13

I can't really say these will work for anyone and this is a work in progress so just try them and see if you like them. My image looks outstanding. The green saturation I had is gone. This is also indicated in the primaries chart which is much closer to perfect now.

Originally posted by ghibliss
autryau89,

Since the low light level accuracy of the probe is what is in question your actual CR reading of 3249:1 is actually much lower not higher then what you measured ! To more accurately measure the display with your equipment you need to place the probe in a very close proximity to the lens of the projector without going into saturation (approximately 24" should work). Once you have a Black level reading which is higher then the low light level accuracy specification of the probe you will have a much more accurate value to report for the CR then you have been listing in your postings.

To be accurate you actually need to be able to read to at least one order of magnitude greater then the lowest light level to be measured (ie to measure to .01 fL requires accuracy to at least .001 fL). To get accuracy to .001 fL requires extremely pricey instrumentation. I have a PhotoResearch PR-880 which hasa Photomultiplier tube in it and provides accuracy to .001 fL but these instruments sell new for approximately $35,000.00 which is a bit higher then the average enthusiast is willing to spend.


Cliff

Cliff,
Thanks so much for the insight. Believe it or not, I got my misinformation from an ISF trained and certified tech. He uses much better instrumentation than comes with Colorfacts but he has used Colorfacts before and he was the one that told me the instrumentation was bad for the loew IREs and if I could use better instrumentation that I would most likely get better CR readings by around 500:1 more. Oh well, I'll have to call him on that one and see what he says.

Also, if you ever want to drop by GA and give me a correct reading, I am sure I could by your dinner or something.:D

Originally posted by Bytehoven
OK... Here are some setting folks can try. I am sending a VGA-RGB 720p signal from the Iscan HD, and a RP-91 SDI is sending to the Iscan HD.

....

W/B Custom 3:
R Gain = 105
G Gain = 55
B Gain = 95
R Bias = 128
G Bias = 128
B Bias = 131
I tried these out and like them. With Auto Iris and the default Low color temp, many of the grayscale test patterns on Avia look too red/brown to me. As someone noted, if you switch the Iris to On or Off this goes away, so the Auto Iris mode must be doing some processing. I have been using the Middle setting since I liked it best of the standard settings, but it looks a little blue and I see some color variation in the gray scale steps. I tried Bytehoven's settings above and they seem to reduce the red tint without getting too blue, and have less color variation in the steps.

I tried the earlier settings from awtryau89. They look better than the standard low setting, but still somewhat too red. I haven't tried the latest settings that awtryau89 posted today, but will check them out later.

I have never done a grayscale calibration, so this is all pretty subjective based on viewing the Avia gray scale patterns and switching between the color temp settings. If you're like me and don't have the equipment to do this, you might want to give their settings a try. Since the HS-51 has 3 custom color temps to play with, if you don't like them you can always go back to the standard low, middle or high.

Thanks to both of you for taking the time to post your results.

I think tomorrow I will try some of these and see how they turn out. I still think the inherent red weakness needs color correction, but not if you cannot afford to lose lumens.

Well guys, I am having a weird experience. First of all, I live with the Sony and its factory settings of Low, Middle and High for a good while. Well you just get used to all the extra red in the picture. After calibrating this PJ over the last few days and getting everything set right, my picture looked too green/blue to me. Well I have checked over and over again and it is calibrated correctly. Anyway tonight, after 2 movies and some HD, it all began to set in. This is what the colors are supposed to look like. Everything isn't supposed to be red. Well, I'm really liking it now. My wife and I watched Cellular tonight. Wow what a bad movie. Anyway, it actually is a great movie for this PJ though. Alot of color contrasts and dark room scenes. The Sony really flexes it's muscles. Anyway, all I can say is that I'm that much closer to perfection.

PS: To everyone trying my settings, please do not be alarmed if they look terrible to you. I have tried 2 other's settings that were ISF'd and they did not work on my Sony. I really think this one has to be worked on individually. I know that Byte's settings are not close for my PJ. Anyway, fun to try.

Ferret, you need to call and we can get together on your PJ. PM sent.

both of two Sony HS50s that I saw initially were red biased. For example, I see red hint on the face of Russo Crow in Ch. 2 Gladiator, and more reds in the fire off that chapter. Second machine somewhat lighter, but machine was less clean too. These reds were not seen in HDTV CRT at home using same DVD

So red needs to be tamed after calibration

The two units I saw yesterday before buying mine were much better in not pushing reds, but there is a tint of red on the right side (table top unit, not ceiling mount), and a slight blue on the left side of the screen when you look at white field pattern of 10 or 20 IRE

regards

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Thanks again for posting your settings, as it helped me get my butt in gear and start working with the white balance adjustments.

I'm curious about a couple of things.

1) what is your source playback device, resolution and color space?

2) what directed you to have such a divergent spread between R and G/B bias/gain settings? I include your settings as a reference.

Red Gain-128
Green Gain-38
Blue Gain-35

Red Bias-86
Green Bias-128
Blue Bias-136

If you have a moment and don't mind, maybe you could walk me thru your calibration process.

1) I am using a Elite 59AVi DVD player at 1080i resolution. It is set to NTSC colorspace. The 59AVi outputs RGB through the HDMI so colorspace is not an issue for calibration on this machine. I have also verified this with the Colorfacts program and measuring the primaries.

2) I am using Colorfacts Pro with the Milori Trichromat meter. In my calibration the first things I do after setting the meter and taking a Dark Reading is find which color is least efficient at 100IRE. This will set the basis for overall contrast control. We all know it is red because it will run out at the 100IRE first. Once you find this, you leave red alone. Do not touch it. I then drop to 80IRE and bring blue and green in line with red. What you will find is that subtracting blue will help bring green in line and vice versa. Blue is of course the dominant color at the higher IREs. (Of course with the Sony on low color temp, the Red, Green and Blue gains are already set very near my settings and if you look at the chart posted by Cine4home you will see how close the PJ is to 6500 at the higher IREs.) Next I move to 30IRE and take the readings. On the lower IREs I do not touch the Green Bias. This is set by making sure brightness is correct before the calibration. I adjust Red and Blue Biases to bring them in line with Green. The same thing applies here as above, adding and subtracting Red will bring the Blue and Green in line with each other. After checking and rechecking a few times with a few more adjustments, I then run a grayscale. From this I can look at my chart and see where I am off on each color at different IREs. This is where we remember 40IRE and below is Bias, 50IRE and above is Gain. I tinker with my settings a bit to get it as perfect as I can. This is kind of an art at this point I am finding.

Anyway, this is how I have calibrated so far. It has worked very well and the results have shown it. I would definitely invite any recommendations for those who are trained better in this area. Let me know if this helps.

I wonder exactly where I should begin in the CCxxR filtration for boosting this weak channel. I am not exactly sure if I should interpret the numerical scales for RGB bias as being equal to one-another. The 86 vs. 128 vs. 136 (on a 0-255 scale?) could be interpreted as being slight, meaning a CC10R or even CC05R, but relative to one-another's value could mean something strong and thus looking at CC30R or stronger.

I am glad I didn't manage to find an ND2/4 filter as of yet to lower lumens (for the black level), because the CCxxR could effective drop lumens along the same lines as an ND2, or more.

I just checked mine, standard setting is 203?

HCPC -> Sony via VGA

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Did you also try the Auto Iris Close Reg change?

I haven't heard any feedback on that factory menu change since I posted it awhile back.

It was:

-> Factory Menu -> Device -> Other -> Iris Close Reg = 210-220 (instead of 255)

I use 210, but some real dark films can benefit from taking the adjustment higher.

I would love to hear any feedback. I found the change allows brighter scenes to be reproduced more brightly, because the iris opens up more fully.

Does this setting change the reaction time for the iris to open/close?

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Did you also try the Auto Iris Close Reg change?

-> Factory Menu -> Device -> Other -> Iris Close Reg = 210-220 (instead of 255)
I checked this and mine was already set to 210 by default. I tried playing with it briefly and saw the effect you mentioned, if I went higher the image looked darker. I also found that higher settings (above 240) caused a perceptable lag in Iris operation. When a scene changed, it seemed to take about 1 second for the Iris to settle in. I could actually see it getting gradually lighter or darker just after the scene change. I put it back to 210.

Now this is interesting. Could it be that the delay was due to having to go back and making some adjustments to the settings?

hey guys, HTPC users.

I clocked in 3 hours of powerstriping yesterday.... it won't hurt to try it and see if you like it.

custom resolution with powerstrip.
DVI in with sony set to video mode.
PS preset resolution 1920x540p and select 16:9, when you click on 16:9, it will change to 960x540. if that happended, click that resolution again, it will stick to 1920x540p with 16:9.

windows will looks funny since it's being stretched to fit the screen but play back video is fine.

With this setting, i'll get less overscan than 1080i or 1776x1000i with NO BORDER ISSUES. I can't comment how good it's compare to 720p SINCE i don't have the proper calibration to get the numbers. For those you have, can you try?? Thanks.

Just trying to get the other way around to get rid of the blanking.....

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Under the factory menu, I have been playing with these settings:

Iris Adj = 0
Open Reg = 0
Close Reg = 255
Open Hall (indication only)
Close Hall (indication only)

I have been specifically playing around with the Close Reg = 255 setting.

Try taking it down to (206). I find it provides much brighter daylight scenes, almost as bright as iris OFF. It also reduces the processed look of white in some scenes.

(206) is as low as the setting can go, before a completely black scene begins to elevate in brightness. I also find reducing the setting to 235 is when it really starts to make a difference. This leads me to believe it might be related to the 0-255 8-bit grayscale volumes.

I have not yet played with OPEN REG = 0 setting, except to confirm as the value is raised to around 40+, the bright whites are reduced.

I haven't yet seen an adjustment for the speed of the iris function as far as opening or closing.

Not sure what (Iris Adj = 0) does as the auto iris seems to stop working in either (1) or (2) settings. These settings do allow for a variation of the iris static setting, but it does not apply to just the iris in the ON mode, rather both ON and AUTO.

Byte,
I pulled your original comments on this. I just checked my settings and they are:

Iris Adj = 0
Open Reg = 41
Close Reg = 200

I changed my Close Reg to 210 and I am amazed at how much quicker the iris shuts down. I will keep working with this but I am finding that 210 may even be too high for my eyes. I do wonder if this effects my recent calibration as far as colors go. Having check all my Service Menus, they are all farily close to what has been reported but some are quite different. I wonder how Sony is tweaking these units as they leave the factory. They may be on a learning curve here. I got my unit the last week of December. I would be interested in knowing what some of the "newer" unit's settings are.

According to the service manual (p.46):

Iris Adj = =
Open Reg = 0
Close Reg = 255

Of course, there is some doubt as to whether this is the actual case or not. I will look tomorrow when I begin seriously playing with my HS51.

Originally posted by awtryau89
Byte,
I pulled your original comments on this. I just checked my settings and they are:

Iris Adj = 0
Open Reg = 41
Close Reg = 200

I changed my Close Reg to 210 and I am amazed at how much quicker the iris shuts down. I will keep working with this but I am finding that 210 may even be too high for my eyes. I do wonder if this effects my recent calibration as far as colors go. Having check all my Service Menus, they are all farily close to what has been reported but some are quite different. I wonder how Sony is tweaking these units as they leave the factory. They may be on a learning curve here. I got my unit the last week of December. I would be interested in knowing what some of the "newer" unit's settings are.

My Close Reg default was 198. I wonder why the factory defaults are different for the HS51 projectors.

Did I read correctly in a previous thread that one person had a default of 255? That is WAY dark. I can't believe any projector would have that default.

I raised mine to 210, but then reduced it again back to default (198) because it darkened the image too much.

Okay guys, I played with the Iris settings a good bit tonight. I discovered that the Iris Close Reg settings control how quickly the Iris will shut down. Basically I just put up a low IRE full field and played with the settings. This setting will not change the amount the iris opens or closes. It just is like a throttle on the iris. At the higher settings the iris will close at the least little part of the image getting dark. I discovered this by watching some scenes where someone would wake into range of the camera and darken the image briefly. When this happened, the iris would shut down immediately and then have to reopen. It seems to reopen just as slowly as normal and this makes sense because of I am not fooling with Iris Open Reg. This is very distracting to me. At my factory setting of 200, I only occasionally notice the iris shutting down but if I move it any higher than 205 it becomes really distracting. I to reverted back to the factory number of 200. One thing to mention, I really do not think this is any correlation to CR and this setting. I am pretty sure that you will get just as good of a CR leaving it at the lower number but it will just take a bit longer to shut down and achieve maximum CR. This is a good thing though, because if you are watching something that is going from light to dark quickly and then going back, I think you want the iris to hold its position and not adjust just for that quick scene. Anyway, stick with what you have on the factory settings. I am thinking that with the numbers being different but all similar, Sony is testing the units as they leave the assembly line with some sort of instrumentation to hit a certain reading. They set each PJ at that reading in the menu. Tolerances would indicate they would all not be exactly the same.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
That has not been my observation. With a bright daylight scene paused on my source, as I raise the Close REG value, the scene does indeed get darker. At a certain point, I can see the HS-51 video processing kick in on the white levels.

Perhaps your observation of shutter speed, is related to how the shutter reacts to an overall scene luminance value, and the greater the range the slower the perceived shutter reaction.

I also noticed with a full black scene, the black level begins to get brighter as I go down past 205. I wonder if you observe the same thing.

It is indeed interesting how projectors have different settings. The HS-51 seems to be all over the map in several areas of image calibration. I wonder why.

Well its funny, I never tried a bright scene. I can unequivocally state that is does not increase or decrease CR though. You will not get better CR with a higher value. You may darken the picture up a good bit becasue of the video processing but CR will remain unchange or even worse because of less luminance where its suppose to have it. I definitely would not run mine much over 205 as it begins to degrade the overall image quality and veiwing experience.

This variance in standard setting may be the reason why there have been such varied reports on the brightness of the HS51. If they are all so different out of the box some may be very dim and others reasonably bright.

Do you think the setting may simply be the range over which the iris works and that the figure is the average IRE level in the scene. ie once the average IRE level gets to 41 the iris starts to open, once it gets to 210ish the iris is fully open.

This would explain why the picture was dark when it was set to 255 as the average input ire would need to be maximum (full white screen) before the iris is fully open. If you were using video level input the iris would never have fully opened as the max video level would have been 235.
Do the std numbers differ when the projector is set to Video vs Computer level inputs?

-Scott

For all of you who have posted your numbers post tweaking, Thanks. I wonder if you were able to post your factory numbers before tweaking and then you numbers post tweaking? We may then be able to figure out which persons projector is closet to ours and utilize their numbers. Or maybe we can adjust our projector after calculating the percentage of change on your projectors bias and gain and then apply that percentage change on our projector.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Have you tried the 59avi at 480i over the HDMI connection?

I assume yes, and that you prefer the deinterlacing & scaling of the 59avi rather tha the HS-51 processing of the 480i HDMI signal.
I personally have not tried 480/HDMI, but that is due to lack of ability to do this. But I can see processing difference between a Faroudja FLI2100 480i processing (from the standalone Panasonic RP-56) vs. the Sony's processing. I think I may actually like what the RP-56 is doing, but that video chain is something I am use to and the no telling how all this will change post-calibration.
Originally posted by Smartarse88
This variance in standard setting may be the reason why there have been such varied reports on the brightness of the HS51. If they are all so different out of the box some may be very dim and others reasonably bright.

Agreed, and I thought the same and mentioned as much to Eric yesterday. But, these should be meaningless for conditions in which the iris is switched to on/off vs. auto. An on/off iris setting is not dynamic anymore.

Do you think the setting may simply be the range over which the iris works and that the figure is the average IRE level in the scene. ie once the average IRE level gets to 41 the iris starts to open, once it gets to 210ish the iris is fully open.

This would explain why the picture was dark when it was set to 255 as the average input ire would need to be maximum (full white screen) before the iris is fully open. If you were using video level input the iris would never have fully opened as the max video level would have been 235.
Do the std numbers differ when the projector is set to Video vs Computer level inputs?

-Scott
I would imagine that the iris function is definitely based on inter-scene luminance when set to auto. My concern for the open/close reg would be if one were to set it pre-calibration and then come back and expect it to not have to be re-adjusted post calibration. Calibration will undoubtedly impact brightness and force a reg adjustment.

I could presume the reason why these settings are different from unit to unit is due to how they might be factory-setup. Since Sony has no way of knowing about the QC for chips they buy in bulk for factories, they probably connect each pj up and run an automated setup. The minor deviations can be explains to subtle differences in the electronics in an individual unit.

Originally posted by Kevin152
For all of you who have posted your numbers post tweaking, Thanks. I wonder if you were able to post your factory numbers before tweaking and then you numbers post tweaking? We may then be able to figure out which persons projector is closet to ours and utilize their numbers. Or maybe we can adjust our projector after calculating the percentage of change on your projectors bias and gain and then apply that percentage change on our projector.

Okay, here are my initial settings before calibration. I never measured High Color Temp so I will not post those. Also I want to mention I am adding my post calibration settings for my PJ with the Iris off and Lamp on High. I did a calibration for this as I expect to use this function for video games and some anmbient light situations. Finally I am posting my component settings for 480i. All my previous postings were for the HDMI input.

Initial Settings

Open Reg 41
Close Reg 200
No change here.

Low Color Temp Factory/// Middle Color Temp Factory
Red G - 128/// Red G - 128
Green G - 32/// Green G - 37
Blue G - 39/// Blue G - 59
Red B - 118/// Red B - 118
Green B - 128/// Green B - 128
Blue B - 123/// Blue B - 124

As you can see, these settings are very close in the biases but differ in the gains.

Calibrated Settings (Iris Off/Lamp High HDMI)

Red Gain-128
Green Gain-46
Blue Gain-49

Red Bias-86
Green Bias-128
Blue Bias-123

Resulting Color Temp 6513 DE:2
Lumens 381
Gamma 2.51
CR 379:1

This mode produced the best looking charts I have seen from the PJ. All colors were perfect from 30-80IRE with the DE exceptions coming in the lower and higher IREs. The PJ seems to be a good bit more linear with the video processing for the Iris function off.

Calibrated Settings (Component 480i)

Red Gain-128
Green Gain-40
Blue Gain-38

Red Bias-75
Green Bias-128
Blue Bias-124

Resulting Color Temp 6543 DE:1
Lumens 326
Gamma 2.53
CR 2757:1

These settings were with contrast set ot 80 but I had to run brightness up to 65 to achieve the proper black level with Avia and DVE. I have read where people have stated HDMI is a dimmer input. This may be the case vs. VGA but it is not the case vs. Component on my PJ.

I hope this helps. I will be very interested to read others original settings and see how close they are to mine.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Have you tried the 59avi at 480i over the HDMI connection?

I assume yes, and that you prefer the deinterlacing & scaling of the 59avi rather tha the HS-51 processing of the 480i HDMI signal.

Byte,
I really cannot decide which one I prefer. Something funny happens when I used 480i through HDMI. I have to revert to the 7.5 Black Level setting and use Expand on the 59AVi to get it to pass BTB. I have had discussions about this on the DVD forum and we have come to the conclusion the 59AVi is passing RGB through HDMI and not YPrBr. Anyway, sometimes I think I prefer 1080i and sometimes I think I prefer 480i. 480i seem to look sharper but I can identify SDE more readily. The 1080i seems to be smoother overall. I really do not know. You have actually opened a question to me. I think I will calibrate the PJ in the 480i HDMI mode and see what kind of results I can get. Depending on where the primaries fall, I may find I will use this option. Thanks for the question.

This morning I ordered a kodak 4" gel filter (CC20R), but it will take 2-3 days to get here. I am curious as to how this will help in providing headrom for the lamp's red deficiency.

I could not find anyone in Atlanta that actually carried the CCxxy Kodak filters. A couple of places had the sheet gels, but these were not optical, but rather for studio light coloration.

My factory iris settings are 42 and 209.

what you guys use for calibration? Smart III or colorfacts?

I am thinking of smart III, but they don't have the bundle made for hs50/51 just yet. Should i wait or get the generic?

Most importantly, does it accurate?? Thanks

Originally posted by zeroendless
what you guys use for calibration? Smart III or colorfacts?

I am thinking of smart III, but they don't have the bundle made for hs50/51 just yet. Should i wait or get the generic?

Most importantly, does it accurate?? Thanks

I'm using Colorfacts Pro. I do know anything about Smart.

As I have been trying some of the color temp settings posted here, I noticed that the default High, Middle and Low settings on my HS-51 are different on the different inputs. Do other people see this?

At first I assumed that these settings were input independent, but after setting Custom 1 on Input A then switching to HDMI, I realized that the each input has it's own color temp settings. This is a good feature, but I was surprised that the defaults are not the same for each input. I first tried out the settings that Bytehoven posted from my HTPC to Input A, and liked them better than any of the defaults. I then used his same settings with a DVD player on HDMI and could see no difference between his settings and Middle. I thought they both looked too blue, and bluer than the same settings on Input A. When I checked, his settings were almost exactly the same as Middle on HDMI, but quite different than Middle on Input A.

It might be interesting if we could post our default Low, Middle, and High color temp settings for each input to see if Sony is setting them all the same or tweaking on a per PJ basis. I will try to post my settings from home tonight.

Originally posted by jschefdog
As I have been trying some of the color temp settings posted here, I noticed that the default High, Middle and Low settings on my HS-51 are different on the different inputs. Do other people see this?

At first I assumed that these settings were input independent, but after setting Custom 1 on Input A then switching to HDMI, I realized that the each input has it's own color temp settings. This is a good feature, but I was surprised that the defaults are not the same for each input. I first tried out the settings that Bytehoven posted from my HTPC to Input A, and liked them better than any of the defaults. I then used his same settings with a DVD player on HDMI and could see no difference between his settings and Middle. I thought they both looked too blue, and bluer than the same settings on Input A. When I checked, his settings were almost exactly the same as Middle on HDMI, but quite different than Middle on Input A.

It might be interesting if we could post our default Low, Middle, and High color temp settings for each input to see if Sony is setting them all the same or tweaking on a per PJ basis. I will try to post my settings from home tonight.

Great catch. My defaults I posted were from my HDMI input. I have calibrated component but I did not even bother to check to see if the defaults were different.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Were you making your changes under the fcatory mode W/B menu, or under the mani Menu OFFSET controls for RGB Gain/Bias?

If the letter, it might be because the offset values I gave are bing made to a different set of base RGB Gain/Bias settings.

I tried the same settings under the factory menu for Custom 3 on HDMI, VGA-RGB and Component 480i, and I found they were very similar. Slight difference due to the inherent color space difference, but still very close.

I also checked all my inputs tonight in the Service Menu. When an input is active (i.e. a signal is being displayed) all of my Color Temp settings are the same. No differences in Low Middle or High. When the input is not active, any color temp selected displays that last color temp chosen on an active input.

These threads got interesting in my absence. :) Makes for some good technical reading.

Brian

The HDMI and Component inputs gave the exact gain and bias figures as follows: (all are factory settings except for Custom 1)

....................High..........Medium..........Low....... ...Custom 1 (Experimentation)
Gain Red.......128............128..............128..............1 03
Gain Green....65...............53...............47............... . 55
Gain Blue.......102............78................56.............. ..95

Bias Red........120............119..............122.............. 128
Bias Green.....128............128..............128............. 128
Bias Blue........124............125..............126............. 131

Open Reg...41
Close Reg..198


I don't have any tweaking equipment so I am using Custom 1 to try out various suggestions from those who do.

When I raise the Close Reg. number, the image darkens. I am leaving my Close Reg at the default 198.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Were you making your changes under the fcatory mode W/B menu, or under the mani Menu OFFSET controls for RGB Gain/Bias?
I've been making all my adjustments from the W/B menu, all the main menu CUSTOM offsets are at zero. Like ricwhite I found that the Component and HDMI settings are the same on my HS-51, but different than the settings he posted. Input A on my PJ is different than the other two. If I changed any of these from the factory default it was an accident, I've been testing the numbers posted here using the Custom 1-3 settings.

Here are my W/B numbers, all checked with the input active.

Component High Middle Low
& HDMI

Gain Red 128 105 128
Gain Green 59 55 49
Gain Blue 81 95 50
Bias Red 112 128 114
Bias Green 128 128 128
Bias Blue 129 131 128

Input A

Gain Red 128 128 128
Gain Green 60 58 50
Gain Blue 89 75 55
Bias Red 122 122 124
Bias Green 128 128 128
Bias Blue 134 135 134

Open Reg=42
Close Reg=210

I gave consideration this morning to trying out some of the configs people have been posting, but for some odd reason I am stumped as to where the RGB Bias controls are located. I stumbled upon the RGB Gain controls, though. Also, are you folks making changes to the User1/2/3 on the Service or Factory level?

PS My Open/Close Reg was found to be 42/199, and the Open Close Hall was 671+/-1 and fluctuating. Anyone care to guess what the Hall settings are for, or rather what its measuring?

Originally posted by TheFerret
I gave consideration this morning to trying out some of the configs people have been posting, but for some odd reason I am stumped as to where the RGB Bias controls are located. I stumbled upon the RGB Gain controls, though. Also, are you folks making changes to the User1/2/3 on the Service or Factory level?

PS My Open/Close Reg was found to be 42/199, and the Open Close Hall was 671+/-1 and fluctuating. Anyone care to guess what the Hall settings are for, or rather what its measuring?

service menu
w/b
Get to the Gain RGB and scroll down and it will then go to the Bias RGB

Oh, I wasn't planning on trying to adjust the hall values, but curious nonetheless. Ric, thanks for the heads up. LOL, its always 'that' simple.

So, are you folks conducting these on the service or factory level?

Originally posted by Brian Wright
Hello all,

I just got my HS51 up and running. It was a long 3 month wait from when I ordered it.

This is my first projector and I am very impressed with the HS51. I have watched a couple of dvd's and the USC/Oklahoma game last night. All I have done is turn the lamp to low and have flipped from dynamic to cinema depending on the source. I have Video Essentials but have yet to use it and have not gotten into the image director as well.

I also have the new Sony 975 DVD player and like it as well, just using component until I order a long HDMI cable.

I am projecting onto a 4x8 Do-Able board painted with Behr SilverScreen paint. I have to say it looks very good. The viewing agle is virtually 180 degrees. My goal is to be able to hold off on a "real" screen until the Sony Black is avaiable.

Anyway, I love the projector and I want to thank everyone for all of the information that I have used in making my first projector purchase.

Brian


Brian,

Sounds like you're quite pleased with your HS-51. Is your projector ceiling mounted? When you say you have a virtual 180 degree viewing angle, you don't lose image quality, brightness, etc. as you walk across to either side of the screen?

Thanks,

Jeff

Admiral, you tend to not have any viewing angle problems with front projectors. IMHO
The only image loss I've seen was with a High Power screen, and that was only if you stood up as opposed to a regular seating position.

With a normal screen you shouldn't have any issues.

Thanks, that makes me feel better. I plan to use a Carada Briliant White screen, which has a 1.4 gain. With the HS-50 ceiling mounted, I hope it will be ok. :confused: :cool:

Hope I'm not hijacking this thread!

I have been playing with RCP on my HS-51. For some reason green saturation with my HTPC connected to input A is very low. I was trying to see if I could improve it using RCP. It seems to work, but I don't know if this will cause other color problems. What surprised me is that RCP seems to be one of the few picture settings that is not input specific. If you customize User 1 RCP setting and make it current, it stays current as you switch inputs. The customization values also do not change as you change inputs.

Kind of a minor issue, but this seems like an oversight. Since the color can vary from input to input and may need to be tweaked differently for each one, it seems like the RCP settings should be input dependent like the others. At the very least, it would be nice if each Input remembered which RCP User setting was last selected for that Input.

Originally posted by jschefdog
Last night I got into the Factory menu and tried tweaking all the settings to deterimine if there was any way to get rid of the black border on 720p input. I had a Sony DVD player feeding 720P over HDMI while making the tweaks. Nothing altered the size or appearance of the black border.
I have been reading through the babelfish translation of the www.cine4home.de review of the HS-50 and came across this comment:
Also in the service/Factory menu of the VPL-HS50 there are no functions for the influence of the Overscans!
So there is confirmation from people who know a lot more than I do.

Also in the Cine4home review there is a section titled "Shading" which seems to be discussing problems with color uniformity. The menu they show is the German version of the Factory "Gamma" menu. I never messed with it, assuming it adjusted... Gamma.

What it really does is allow you to tweak the RGB balance at 273 points on the screen for 11 different white field levels. It is either a tweakers paradise or a nightmare. That is 273x11x3=9009 different numbers you can tweak!

First you have to get into Factory Mode (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4862442#post4862442). Then click the Menu button and open the Device/Gamma menu. The screen goes black and you get the menu.

Level: sets the white field intensity from 0 (black) to 11.

Position: moves a cross hair to the point to adjust. You cannot see it in the upper left corner when you first open the menu.

The effect is pretty interesting. As you change the RGB values you can see a color change in a roughly circular area around the cursor.

So if anyone has a white field uniformity problem you might be able to correct it with this menu. Like the W/B and other Factory settings, changes are not saved unless you click the "Save to Memory" button. Otherwise changes are lost when you power off. A good thing if you screw around with this menu since it would be difficult to keep track of the original settings.

jschefdog, yes. If you look at the picture I posted for black level, you can actually see the off-condition color uniformity. But, there are bigger issues to fry Sony on. :)

"Using the High lamp output and contrast set to maximum ..."

This is a grab from the Bill Cushman review (WSR). It doesn't say using what color temp (Low, Middle, or High). Anyone care to guess?

To better understand the context in which those words were used, please read the WideScreen Review (http://www.widescreenreview.com/attractions/eqrevfeature.html). Under the section The Dynamic Auto Iris, Contrast Ratio, And Light Output, the second paragraph, third sentance.

I understand the deviating white point due to the deficiency of red and blue, but I am puzzled as to which color temp they set the projector to.

When selecting INPUT-A COMPUTER....

Can someone explain what the DOT PHASE adjustment is actually doing?

I discovered something last night.

My iScanHD+ has the ability to output some very usefull test patterns. There is a frame and geometry pattern that displays a 1 pixel wide box around the very outside of the image. My original DOT PHASE setting was set to 6.

When I set the DOT PHASE value to '0' two great things happened:

1. The left 1pixel wide vertical line was fully visible on the left side of the screen.

2. The checkerboard test pattern that consists of a 1-pixel black and white checkerboard no longer had slight noise. The checkerboard was rock solid perfect.

Also the magic number for H-Size on my system is 1650. At his setting there is absolutely no banding when displaying 1-pixel wide alternating black and white vertical lines.

Gary

Well I got my HS51 and 975 DVD player yesterday. It came in earlier than expected. I am now waiting on my cables to come from Blue Jean. Does anyone have reccomendations for what to do right out of the box? I plan on running component from my SAT-HD200 and HDMI from the 975 DVD player. I have read all the posts here but am wondering what a good starting point would be. I do not have Colorfacts or SMART. I only have the Avaya DVD. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Byte, YGM.

When selecting INPUT-A COMPUTER....

Can someone explain what the DOT PHASE adjustment is actually doing?

I discovered something last night.

My iScanHD+ has the ability to output some very usefull test patterns. There is a frame and geometry pattern that displays a 1 pixel wide box around the very outside of the image. My original DOT PHASE setting was set to 6.

When I set the DOT PHASE value to '0' two great things happened:

1. The left 1pixel wide vertical line was fully visible on the left side of the screen.

2. The checkerboard test pattern that consists of a 1-pixel black and white checkerboard no longer had slight noise. The checkerboard was rock solid perfect.

Also the magic number for H-Size on my system is 1650. At his setting there is absolutely no banding when displaying 1-pixel wide alternating black and white vertical lines.

Gary



Vga is anolog while your display is digital, thus incoming vga signal has to convert to digital. Doing so, the pixels clock must be properly adjusted and sync to avoid pixels jittering. Dot Phase allow you to track sync of dot pixels so you screen won’t appear flickering or blurring texts. The distorted one pixel pattern is a result of that. If you have htpc, load in windows desktop, you see the result of ‘before and after’ APA much clearly.

But one must not confuse pixels misalignment with dot phase adjustment. They are not uniformed. However, The Panels misalignment plays a big role with dot phase. In close up 1 pixel pattern, it may appear blurring due to misalignment but not the dot phase. Put on 10x10 or 50x50 1 pixel test pattern, you will see misalignments aren’t the same from area to another. If you adjust the dot pixels tried to alignment pixels at the left… the center, top, bottom or others may be off. To be accurate, test and adjust them with 50x50 1 pixel pattern. A single or just couple vertical lines pattern doesn’t do the justice…at least not for me.

The APA works for me just fine.

So, has anyone attempted to do as the WSR did in raising Cr to 100 and setting the Lamp to high mode to measure CR? I do not seem to be reaching the stellar +5800:1 reported, nor Cine4home's amazing 6100:1. The best I could come up with was 4900:1 (all be it using a CC20R filter).

I do not know about the Cine4home review methodolgy use in achieving the 6100:1, but it didn't appear the WSR approach measured this post-calibration and with no mention of ColorTemp setting (Low, Middle, High).

Seems like a big mystery, here, waiting for Nancy Drew to solve it. :)

Our Test-untit reached this high contrast ratio after maximizing the RGB-Gains to their Max (right before clipping). Best method to do that is to use the service menu.

BTW: There might be some contrast deviation between units too (I mentioned that earlier)


Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cine4home.de

Ekkehart, thanks for the reply--its appreciated. Curious, I have been playing in the service menu as its how I managed to get >4K:1 with a variance of 1 from D65. I did this, though, with Cr set to 95 and proper massaging of the gain and bias controls.

I also conducted all of this using a CC20R gel. Did you or do you plan to calibrate further for maximum CR while staynig close to or at D65?

Ok folks, I am looking for suggestions. I took the liberty to measure the minimum light output of the HS51 and compare it to the CRT I have been comparing it to. Keep in mind that this is an air-coupled CRT, which means there is sufficient light scatter between its C element and the glass plate used for cooling the CRT tube face.

I used the same Black Bars test pattern in Avia with the same source. The only difference is that when using the source DVD player for the HS51 I used 480 Component directly into the projector. For the CRT, I fed 480i into a DVDO iScan Pro to transcode to RGBHV, but left the Brightness setting unchanged. The DVD player was set for darker blacks in both cases.

The best I could do for the most contrast with a mildly color corrected (filtered) calibration nearest to D65 was 0.015 Lux. For the CRT, which was calibrated +15 months ago, the Lux reading was 0.002. Unfortunately, I do not know what magnitude of potential inaccuracy is.

While the HS51 100-IRE measurement was 43.6 Lux was twice that of the CRT (21.0), I would guess an ND4 would be needed to lower the black level to something close of the CRT. Using an ND4 would greatly impact the 100-IRE Lux measurement (guessing one-forth of the unfiltered output at 100-IRE).

And while lowering the minimum light output would be desirable, it will not yield better contrast for me. I realize I can use an ND2 to halve the minimum/maximum light output and have whites as bright as the CRT, but then there is another question, too.

I am not sure what you want us to suggest. I think you knew already going in that your crt would have lower black levels and better cr so no real surprises there. I suppose the question is can you live with it?

BTW, I don't think your sensor is accurate enough to read those low of light levels. I would suggest moving it closer to the pj to get the numbers higher. I don't think it will matter much in the comparison between the two however as your crt will still have a lower bl.

So, how close would you suggest? One foot, two? Isn't the same distance for the 0-IRE reading going to be needed for 100-IRE? Would this potentially saturate the sensor? Any low level reading inaccuracy would apply to all cases. I took several reading, performing the self-calibration in between each case, and the figures I got were at least consistent.

Also, I was hoping someone would suggest something that I haven't thought of. I guess I've thought of everything, or at least everything you have. :)

TheFerret
glenned posted this a while back

"A $140 light meter like the Entech CA811 will measure from .01 lux to about 200,000 lux (20,000 fc) and has a dynamic range of about 20 million : 1. The limiting factor for accurately measuring on/off CR with this meter is the lower sensitivity level because the meter always rounds up or down to the closest digital reading. So a reading of .05 lux is shown on the meter for any illuminance level from .045-.0549 lux. This induces a possible error due to rounding of about 10%, which induces a possible error of +/- 10% in the on/off CR measurement.

The light meter needs to be mounted close enough to the PJ so that at Black the meter reads at least .05 lux, and preferably .1 lux (where the max possible rounding error is only about +/- 5%) or higher.

With the 4000:1 CR of a calibrated Sharp 12000 this requires a mounting distance of about 3' from the PJ's lens. The meter has enough dynamic range that it doesn't need to moved back to read 100 IRE.

As DarinP pointed out to all of us over a year ago, none of the mid level colorimeters used to set grey scale have sufficient accuracy at Black to be used for this measurement"

in this thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=425277&highlight=lux

It would have been nice to have seen that thread days ago. Now its too late. I'll re-edit the previous post(s) and remove the figures. So, what meters meet the short list of acceptance? Can they be rented for less than the cost of the projector, or will we all be just 'eyeballing' the contrast and black levels?

I am glad HHF you pointed this out. I now consider everyone's figures as meaningless, include WSR.

The Ferret

IIRC WSR uses a Minolta light meter

FERRET

Please dont take this the wrong way, but whats with all the concern on how to measure the SONY LCD, properly, and how those measurements would compare to your CRT? Other than idle curiosity, you have and own both, surely one pleases more than the other. Just enjoy the incredible video experience your fave projector gives you . Just like in audio, measurements can cetainly be a guide, but the bottom line is what sounds best to you. I have heard many a piece of audio gear over the years, that had superb test bench measurements, however sonically left much to be desired. I dont see video as being any different. If it pleases the eye, how important are those measurements? AS they say, beauty is indeed, in the eye of the beholder.

CHEERS, TC

I think you have missed a point, TC. Its not a concern on how to measure the Sony LCD, but rather how to measure the two systems being compared when one attempts to make effort to getting one to perform as closely as the other.

For example, let's say I simply was concerned with black level and not at all as to what impact the applied solution would create in terms of 100-IRE lumen output, contrast, or the color temp 'white' wound up being. How would I determine this without proper, reliable, and accurate measurement?

This has nothing to do with the Sony, the CRT, or Macintosh Apples. :)

I've just had a thought, I bought my HS50 to actually watch movies on.

I've been messing with it for days and any adjustments I now make are really counter-productive to my best efforts so far. So I'm happy that I've gotten all that I can out of it.

I know it will never stand upto my Barcodata 808 but hell, its not a million miles away.

All I'm saying is too much tweaking can be a bad thing., afterall this is a hobby and not a life.

True, but you also have to consider why people are tweaking in the first place. Maybe its because what they are looking for cannot be had out of the box, and the result impacts one's ability to watch (and see) things in that movie. :)

Another thing to consider are those of us that are looking to purchase something like this that DEMAND accuracy because it will be used in a reference evaluation system. Right now I am considering this for my room which I do reviews of equipment and DVDs. If there are a lot of compromises, threads like this will usually clue me in to them.

Hi Kris,

There are quite a few compromises in the HS50 design but by and large its successful at what it does.

After living it with for nearly two months now I've got used to the compromises and the only really annoying thing is the red push at low IRE when the iris is in AUTO.

Compared to the AE700 this is on the next level up, picture is virtually artifact free, colours are more vibrant through high contrast although I did prefer the AE700's screendoor.

Zero, have you calibrated your unit and look at the grayscale to try and tame the red?

I do remember that when I had the PC connected and went from a black barren desktop to opening the menus the red-push was there. It was almost like the blue and green lagged a little in response.

Hi,

I have a question for people having both HS50/51 and iScan HD (not plus). I am little dissatisfied for my Z2 (new Z3 is the same), which I couldn't adjust color and tint, if input is in DVI. I can only obtain fully control when the input is in component. I have read HS50/51's manual, which states that user can adjust color and tint when the input is in HDMI. My question is the iScan HD doesn't has HDMI and only has DVI. Can you adjust color and tint with DVI input? Can I just buy an adapter to convert DVI to HDMI, or it isn't that simple

Originally posted by xiaoyu
Hi,

I have a question for people having both HS50/51 and iScan HD (not plus). I am little dissatisfied for my Z2 (new Z3 is the same), which I couldn't adjust color and tint, if input is in DVI. I can only obtain fully control, if input is in component. I have read HS50/51's manual, which states that user can adjust color and tint when the input is in HDMI. My question is the iScan HD doesn't has HDMI and only has DVI. Can you adjust color and tint with DVI input? Can I just buy an adapter to convert DVI to HDMI, or it isn't that simple

Should present no problems for you to just run a DVI-HDMI adaptor.

For those of you who are interested, there is a LINK to a new review by THOMAS NORTON, (ULTIMATE AV) in the OFFICIAL SONY THREAD, on the SONY HS51. I cant ever recall him giving another digital projector a more favorable review. He even mentions " THIS PROJECTOR IMPRESSED ME MORE THAN ANY OTHER PROJECTOR I HAVE EVER REVIEWED" He does go on to mention that he has to qualify that statement, and makes reference to a few negative things, however rest of the review is extremely positive.

CHEERS, TC
PS, some key measurements he took, showed peak contrast, at d6500, in low lamp to be, approx, 3100/1, and in high lamp mode=3900/1 (auto iris on in both cases). Ansi contrast came in at 224. He was able to get near 6000/1 peak contrast , with all paramaters( contrast,etc.) bumped to the max.

That 3100:1 with Lamp=Low (and i presume Iris=Auto) seems a little low, but I guess differences in measuring equipment and in projector variation can produce this.

So, from the reveiws that I have read, the BEST contrast would be achieved by having the lamp on "high" and the iris on "auto" with the black adjustment "off" and the color temp on "medium" or a close custom setting.

True?

I've tested the black adjustment option and sometimes feel I get a better image with the black adjustment on. What does using the black adjustment do to overall contrast and image quality?

Which custom settings have you found to be the overall best on the RGB gain and bias controls? (Understanding that each projector is a little different and will vary to some degree).

Any other "tweaking" tricks to get the maximum image quality?

I'm just trying to make sure that I'm doing every simple thing possible to get the best image from my HS51 and since I don't have calibration equipment I have to rely on those who do and post their settings and tweaks.

Thanks

Originally posted by ricwhite
So, from the reveiws that I have read, the BEST contrast would be achieved by having the lamp on "high" and the iris on "auto" with the black adjustment "off" and the color temp on "medium" or a close custom setting.

True?

Thanks

Having the lamp on high will give the brighest picture. However, it will not give you the ideal picture for viewing films, low is what you want for that scenario.

Originally posted by ricwhite
So, from the reveiws that I have read, ...

I've tested the black adjustment option and sometimes feel I get a better image with the black adjustment on. What does using the black adjustment do to overall contrast and image quality?

Thanks

I used to be a supporter of Black Adjustment "ON". Mainly because in DVE I noticed no evidence of black crush. The three greyscale bars displayed perfectly after adjusting the Brightness.

Unfortunately, I noticed a lack of shadow detail when Black Adjustment was turned ON. So, although turning on BA may appear to give the image a jet black look to the picture, the detail you would be losing is more of a disadvantage.

Bottom line, turn the BA to OFF, IMO.

Enjoy the HS51. ;)

Originally posted by ricwhite
So, from the reveiws that I have read, the BEST contrast would be achieved by having the lamp on "high" and the iris on "auto" with the black adjustment "off" and the color temp on "medium" or a close custom setting.

True? I did not this to be the case. I think several people had the lamp in High mode during their calibration--as I did--but the post-calibration was set back to low, unless there was something I missed.

Originally posted by TheFerret
I did not this to be the case. I think several people had the lamp in High mode during their calibration--as I did--but the post-calibration was set back to low, unless there was something I missed.

Now I'm confused as well. From what I'd read previously, including reviews, has been that the image is better in Low lamp mode. I can understand the argument about larger screens, but I'm kind of surprised it's the first time I've heard it used. The only other references I've read about for high setting have been for either strong ambient light levels and watch TV sports.

The recent professional tests of the HS51 seems to indicate to me that the lamp mode (high or low) DOES affect contrast. Note this from Ultimate AV web site on their recent review:

But with everything tweaked to the nines, the peak on/off contrast measured 3100 (12.40fL with a 100 IRE white field, 0.004fL with video black, 16:9, 80-inch wide Stewart Studiotek 130 screen, lamp Low, Iris on Auto) With the lamp on High, the peak contrast increased to 3888

So, with low lamp, their calibrated contrast was 3100. On high it was 3888. That's a 20 percent increase in contrast simply by switching the lamp mode from low to high.

Other reviews indicated similiar findings. So, I must conclude that the best contrast is achieved by having the lamp mode on "high." Am I missing something? Am I reading all of these professional reviews wrongly?

Originally posted by ricwhite
The recent professional tests of the HS51 seems to indicate to me that the lamp mode (high or low) DOES affect contrast. Note this from Ultimate AV web site on their recent review:

But with everything tweaked to the nines, the peak on/off contrast measured 3100 (12.40fL with a 100 IRE white field, 0.004fL with video black, 16:9, 80-inch wide Stewart Studiotek 130 screen, lamp Low, Iris on Auto) With the lamp on High, the peak contrast increased to 3888

So, with low lamp, their calibrated contrast was 3100. On high it was 3888. That's a 20 percent increase in contrast simply by switching the lamp mode from low to high.

Other reviews indicated similiar findings. So, I must conclude that the best contrast is achieved by having the lamp mode on "high." Am I missing something? Am I reading all of these professional reviews wrongly?
I think that may have resulted from two sets of calibration, one in which the lamp was left in Low mode and the other with the lamp in High mode. I made this mistake initially and when I placed the lamp in High mode for calibration my numbers were better, but the contrast measurements were done with Lamp=Low Iris=Auto.

With all the on the fly video adjustments the Sony makes when the auto iris is engaged, I suppose it is possible for the contrat ratio to change depending on the lamp setting.

But if we are correctly assuming that the only thing that changes from low lamp to high is the lamp output, then there is a very simple explanation for differing CR measurements - measurement error. It is notoriously difficult to measure extremely low light (black) levels accurately. At very low light levels, very minute differences in meter readings can result in apparently large differences in CR.

Pip

Do not confuse the situation here. The intra-scene CR is never greater than when measured while the iris is On/Off. Think of it as a 'window' of contrast that can move up/down a scale of luminance depending on where the iris sits in relation to it being in a given position.

Also, measurement error can, to a certain degree, be minimized my simply moving the measuring device close enough to the projector to get the black reading. Reducing the sensor-projector distance to one-tenth (0.1) will yield 100x more light during that black reading.

Originally posted by Bytehoven
I also asked for a detailed explanation of the changes associated with the 720p cropping solution, as well as how HS-50 projectors will be handled.

Thanks Byte, much appreciated! :) I have this nice Blue Jean DVI to HDMI cable disconnected from my HTPC right now. Really interested in seeing what this PJ can do with a pixel perfect image over HDMI.

Hmm, you are going to be feeding 128020 via DVI-to-HDMI?

Anyone in this thread with a HS51 in the Sonoma County or Northern SF Bay Area? I am very interested in this machine but would like to see one in action.

Thanks.

Interesting, just finished a calibration and I think others have mentioned this but with perfect grescale tracking I am looking at about 3100:1 or so contrast. If I max the contrast setting on the HS51 this goes all the way up to about 4100:1 but you can see that the red takes off at the upper end of the histogram. These measurements are in low lamp mode with Iris set to Auto. Subjectively speaking I do not see much difference between 4100:1 and 3100:1.

Next, I wll try different lamp and iris settings.

Brian

You know, if I owned this equipment then at this point I would surely have thrown it out the window and run over it three times with my car. This is getting ridiculous as I can no longer recreate the contrast ratios I was getting before (now its saying 2200:1) and each time I run the calibration I get differening cuts and gains and cannot track very close to D65. If you change just one or two variables like high versus low lamp, iris on versus off, etc. you will get totally different numbers. I am seriously questioning what the value of this stuff is at this point...

Brian

Brian, YGM!

HI I RECENTLY PURCHASED A VPL-HS51 AND I AM A MEMBER OF AVSFORUM.COM THERE HAS BEEN SEVERAL DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE HDMI 720P INPUT AND THE BLANKING OR CROPPING ISSUSES (BLACK BORDERS AROUND THE 720P PICTURE WHEN DISPLAYED) WHEN WILL AN UPDATE (FIRMWARE) BE AVAILABLE FOR YOUR CUSTOMERS? IT WOULD REALLY GO ALONG WAY IF YOU WOULD LET US KNOW. MANY PEOPLE ARE UNHAPPY ABOUT THIS ISSUE. HOW ABOUT GIVING USE SOME INFORMATION ON THAT, YOU COULD EVEN GOTO AVSFORUM.COM AND POST SOME SORT OF STATEMENT AS TO THE OFFICAL HEADWAY YOU ARE MAKING TOWARDS FIXING THIS (DISPLAYS UNDER 3500$) THANKS JEFF PLEASE EMAIL ME AT JEFFPAIGE31@HOTMAIL.COM


FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT BROTHERS SEND IN YOUR EMAIL TO

http://esupport.sony.com/

Maybe if they fix this ill try for a number four replacement since the first 3 i had to send back because of convergence issues jeff

Jeff, what's with the caps? On the Internet, an all-caps post is interpreted as someone that us YELLING at the readers.

And have you called Sony and asked?

FYI everybody, I have seen numerous posts from people who think that the middle setting is the correct temperature setting for D65. The first thing I did yesterday was check the default out of the box settings and low seemed to be closest to D65. Middle was closer to D75, but I find I really like this grayscale. High was about D93.

I recalibrated my inputs so that low is tracking true to D65, middle D75 and high D93. If I did a quick blind test and asked you which was correct I bet many would pick D75 over D65, or at least most might be unsure which to choose.

Brian

Originally posted by usabrian
FYI everybody, I have seen numerous posts from people who think that the middle setting is the correct temperature setting for D65. The first thing I did yesterday was check the default out of the box settings and low seemed to be closest to D65. Middle was closer to D75, but I find I really like this grayscale. High was about D93.
Did you make the measurements with the Iris set to Auto? If so that is a surprise. To me the Low setting looks distinctly reddish when viewing grayscale test patterns with the Iris set to Auto. This goes away if I switch the Iris to On or Off, but the whole point of this PJ is the auto iris so that doesn't matter.

I also prefer Middle of the 3 standard settings, but have been using some custom settings posted earlier by Bytehoven since I like them better. Can you post your settings and let us know which input you used? The default settings on Input A are different than HDMI on my HS-51.

Earlier in this thread a few of us posted our default Low, Middle and High color temp settings and discovered that they also vary from PJ to PJ. It could be that Sony has some automated method of setting the defaults for each PJ. It's unclear if everyone is seeing the same thing using the standard color temps.

Hmm, I had not even thought to measure the color temp of the other two settinges. I just took someone else's word for it. Doh!

Ferret
How you like the CC20R? Does it help much gettin off the green push? in additon to CR

Its not so much of the green push as a red weakness. And yes, I liked it a lot. I chose a conservative approach as I could have gotten a CCxxR in xx=5/10/15/20/25/30/35/40 and so on.

I should have bid on the auction in ebay last time, dude got full set of kodak color collection filters and most in 4x4. Too late..........

I'm waiting on steve smart III version2 to pals with the filters, glad to hear it works on yours. You did use calibration tool for it right? Does the kodak 4x4, 100mm fit the thread just fine?

Sorry about the caps, thats how i sent the email to sony. Anyway I called yesterday and was on hold for about an hour , then my lunch break was over so I had to go back to work. I "talked" to someone about the cropping and alignment issues over the internet at the sony support but alvin (my support rep) only said hmm never heard of those probs with the hs51,yawwwwn. No help. Byteoven (sorry if I misspelled) I hope you have better luck. Please let us all in on how to get this fix done, (at least on the hdmi 720p) (I can always send a projector with convergence probs back to the store I received from.) when you get it fixed. crossing my fingers jeff

A couple of NOOB questions.

I've been enjoying my unit for over six weeks now, just running in cinema mode with iris on auto. I have fiddled with the brightness and contrast controls but now I want to get adventurous and delve into the service menu.

From trawling this and the official thread, I believe that "enter, enter, up, down, enter." will get me in to the service menu, correct?

Should I tweak the white balance control? Does this give me individual gain and bias for red, green and blue?

I do not have access to real test disks to use other than the THX set-up menu you find on some dvd's.

Is there some set brightness and contrast settings, combined with RGB gain and bias settings that seem to give a good picture (I understand that each pj may differ and I don't really want to get into filters etc).

If I change settings in the service menu, can they be saved to User 1 for example, or will the changes affect all pre-set settings (Cinema, Dynamic etc) on the machine?

Some settings I have read on the forum include -

B - 60; C - 90

Gain R 128
G 60
B 62

Bias R 111
G 128
B 126
...........................

B - 50; C - 50

Gain R 128
G 60
B 62

Bias R 108
G 128
B 114
..............................

B - 60; C - ?

Gain R 140
G 48
B 42

Bias R 88
G 128
B 136

Personally, it may be fun to try other people's settings, but the reality is a good bet that your HS50/51 is not 100% identical in condition to their unit and unless you have equipment to let you know what you may need to know to fine tune for your particular unit its an almost a moot point.

I could easily pull environment, sources, fave transports, screens, etc. all into the equation and have someone else's settings not be the right thing. For instance, how many HS50/51 owners bought their projector with the intention of squeezing as much contrast out of the unit as possible? Now, what good will their settings be to someone that doesn't share the same goal, sources, environment, and screen?

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Fun Hater

:D You trying to get on my good side? :)

This is turning out to be a dream come true!

Ok, got my hdmi cable today from Blue Jean Cable, and got the sony ceiling mounted in my newly painted, light controlled room. (Black ceiling, Black wall behind screen, dark blue all other walls - room is 21 ft long and 10 ft wide) I had only opened the sony a few days ago and tried it on my new Carada screen with a svhs cable. It looked very good. Tonight, I got the hdmi cable pluggged in and viewed the sony for the first time with my new sony 975 dvd player via the hdmi. OH MY!! This is just everything I hoped for and more. The image is simply stunning, STUNNING! The hdmi cable really did make a big difference, more than I imagined it would. I fooled around a little with some of the picture settings, but even out of the box, this projector is something else. And a big thanks to David at Carada Screens. He suggested the 100 inch diag. Brilliant White and it has turned out to be a pure winner.

By the way, in auto iris and cinema mode, now that some of you have been using the sony for a while, can anyone tell me what image settings they have found to look best? (conrast, sharpness, etc...) By the way, I will be setting up my sound system tomorrow, but even without any sound, I could hardly hear the projector at all. Man is this thing quiet! I hope you are all enjoying this projector as much as I all ready am and when the sound is all set up, I bet it's going to be even better :-)

Thanks!

Larry

larsil,

If you can, give the Input A a whirl. I bought the same BJC cable but went back to VGA as it looked much better IMHO. I won't go into the gory details as they've been mentioned numerous times here.

Originally posted by RoninTech
larsil,

If you can, give the Input A a whirl. I bought the same BJC cable but went back to VGA as it looked much better IMHO. I won't go into the gory details as they've been mentioned numerous times here.

I want to give this input A a try , but remain confused .Do I have to go DVI to RGB or is it component to RGB (from DVD player) or are we talking about RGB to RGB from a pc as no RGB output from DVD player?

Anyone used Ekhart (Cine4home) to calibrate their Sony - what were the results like (pre-cal and after-cal)? (I suspect due to shipping this is a question for the european guys).
Thanks,
Paul

Originally posted by Paul Butler
Anyone used Ekhart (Cine4home) to calibrate their Sony - what were the results like (pre-cal and after-cal)? (I suspect due to shipping this is a question for the european guys).
Thanks,
Paul

Nah, there's nothing like paying several hundred in customs fees and taxes to semi-socialist countries!

Brian

I really am surprised that no one in the good old USA has not started a business (WM, could be the only one?) where you send you projector to a calibrationist and have it tweaked, filters and everything, for the goal you had in mind (whether that be color accurate, maximum contrast, etc. as the #1 goal).

Sounds like an excellent $199 opportunity. Also sounds like an excellent way for a calibrationist to experience a variety of projectors. The only problem I see is the inability to calibrate to one's intended sources and external processors.

Brian,

Can you tell me how you got the plate on the omnipro mount to sit tight against the hs51? (I believe you have the mount) I just got my mount and the screws only go in so far. Did you go and buy shorter screws or did you leave the plate a little loose when hanging from the ceiling?

Thanks

And let's see some pictures of that mount with the HS51!

"Sounds like an excellent $199 opportunity."

I'm sure you can ship it for less than that in the States :)

What, hehe, are you talking about? I meant for some smuck to calibrate it as a fee, not for S&H.

Originally posted by larsil
Brian,

Can you tell me how you got the plate on the omnipro mount to sit tight against the hs51? (I believe you have the mount) I just got my mount and the screws only go in so far. Did you go and buy shorter screws or did you leave the plate a little loose when hanging from the ceiling?

Thanks

Simple, use two washers instead of one. Or you can go to HD and buy shorter screws.

Brian

Originally posted by reaper
And let's see some pictures of that mount with the HS51!

Sorry Reaper I forgot about that. Will do this weekend...

Brian

I'll see if I can help Brian and post some pictures of the Omnimount with the HS51. I installed mine this weekend. Its a snap, clean and professional looking when completed. I can't thank Brian enough for informing us about this mount. Definitely a high value item!

I think I'll have to attach one view per post due to size limitations. Here's the front view.

Chuck

Here's a side view.

Here's a rear view showing the cable management.

Thanks for the images, Chuck...

reaper

Great images Chuck. I had order this mount as well but it is just sitting in a box in my office until the PJ gets here. The images definately gave me piece of mind though on it!!

More pictures of the Omnimount for those interested:

I have the mount attached to its longest length right now (about 18-in) due to my crt projector still hanging in front of it.

Also, pardon my incomplete room, I just put in the hard ceiling.

Brian

Looks familiar.....I see you are using the flush ceiling mount. The only SLIGHT disappointment for me was that the finishing ring can't be used except with the flush mount. I'm sure it could be modified in some way to work with a drop ceiling, but who looks above the projector when it will be used in a dark room with stunning video displayed? ;)

Thanks again for the recommendation!

Chuck

Hey BYTE what about if a customer is having problems with panel alignment, is there something juan in laredo is willing to do about that or just the 720p update? Since they also incorporated a "new" way of placing the panels in better seems like they would have a fix for both problems. Did you ask about that? I guess I could call and ask also, just thought you had kindof an inside track on this stuff at sony. thanks jeff

Since they also incorporated a "new" way of placing the panels in better seems like they would have a fix for both problems.

Is there any way to tell by serial numbers if these "fixes" have been done to new available units? Getting ready to buy one but this info would be nice to know to avoid getting one that has to be sent in for a "fix".

Thanks.

I think right now only ones directly from sony have the update, and I think someone said there is also a delay because they are on backorder. jeff

Well, that's sort of a bummer, it certainly influences my purchasing decision...

Hey BYTE what about if a customer is having problems with panel alignment, is there something juan in laredo is willing to do about that or just the 720p update?
Your best bet is just to call and ask, but my experience has been that the only way to fix panel misalignment is to replace the projector's optical block. Once the new block is installed, it's hit-or-miss as to whether the panel alignment is better or worse than it was originally. If possible, it's probably just better to wait until the factory fixes have made their way onto the street...that's what I intend to do, anyway...I'll wait several months if necessary. Hopefully Byte or someone else will be able to provide serial number data once it's available.

Schwa, I think your right im going to wait also. I have another projector to hold me over until they get the vpl-hs51 straight. Some people say the alignment issue is a non issue, but I have to disagree 100%, but everyone has their opinon. jeff

I have some vital info from an impeccable source that might be useful to some of you.

When you calibrate your grayscale turn on the auto iris but set the contrast at 40. This is the trick to avoid the problems HT and S&V had in their reviews.

Once calibrated you can crank the contrast back up to 70 or more.

You have to calibrate with the AI on because the video auto-gain circuit that operates only with AI needs to be compensated for.
This circuit automatically boost the video gain to exactly compensate for the dimming effect of the iris. It obviously can't boost beyond max white which is why you want to leave plenty of headroom while calibrating (40) and some headroom while viewing (70-80)

Also, try the 480i and 1080i inputs for best video results.

Enjoy!
Ken

Modeline "1280x720" 74.250 1280 1360 1488 1664 720 723 728 748 -hsync +vsync

I had alot of trouble trying to find the exact line that would call Preset mode#56, and that is the correct Modeline for X. The Image is definately more solid, and I don't get a slight pixel color leak.

Originally posted by darkwire
Modeline "1280x720" 74.250 1280 1360 1488 1664 720 723 728 748 -hsync +vsync
Thanks for posting the info, but can you provide some more details on how or where this is used? Is it some type of display or Powerstrip setting?

I tried to set my PC to Preset Mode #56 using PowerStrip, but I still had to tweak the projector settings to get 1:1 pixel mapping.

Originally posted by jschefdog
Thanks for posting the info, but can you provide some more details on how or where this is used? Is it some type of display or Powerstrip setting?

I tried to set my PC to Preset Mode #56 using PowerStrip, but I still had to tweak the projector settings to get 1:1 pixel mapping.

That is the modeline for X windows. I can give you a sort of 'breakdown' how to feed it to powerstrip.

PowerStrip timing
1280x720=1280,80,128,176,720,3,5,20,74250,NEEDS_SOME_NUMBER_ HELP

Generic timing
HFP=80 HSW=128 HBP=176 kHz=? VFP=3 VSW=5 VBP=30 Hz=?

Modeline "1280x720" 74.250 1280 1360 1488 1664 720 723 728 748 -hsync +vsync

What I know is that khZ= ((74.250/1664)*1000)~=44.62 and Hz is ((kHz/748)*1000)~=59.65 (I just remember mode #56 says 56.6x, I forgot what x equals)

Sorry I do not have windows/powerstrip to get u the real powerstrip/generic line, but I looked on the web for the format and thats as much as I can figure out. But all the vital numbers should be there.

The instruction book is incorrect in saying Hz = 59.94, because that does not match what mode #56 says in the ROM.

If I solve my spdif garbage noise issue maybe I can drop in a windows hd and try powerstrip to get the missing numbers, but don't hold your breath :P

When you get mode#56 recognized, don't forget to hit APA!!! And make sure your proj is good and warmed up, I think mine takes about 25-30 mins to completely stabilize the lamp (e.g. pixels look slighty out of focus and slowly gain more sharpness until it looks perfect at about 30 mins of warm up)

Gentlemen:

Apologies for jumping in and asking a question that has likely been asked and answered elsewhere...the issue being that I simply cannot find it.

The issue/situation is as follows:

-- I purchased an HS50 projector from a dealer two days ago.

-- The dealer advised me that he had the unit in stock since late December 2004.

-- The dealer further advised me that he had returned to Sony for purposes of having the firmware upgrade performed prior to delivery to me as he had done for his other units (which, he notes, others are using without flaw through the HDMI connection).

The unit will be installed on Sunday/Monday. That said, what and how do I check that the firmware upgrade has indeed been made?

Many thanks,

Joel

Bytehoven:

Many thanks...I will test it out and let you know whether the dealer is telling the truth or not...very much appreciated.

Point of clarification...can I go directly to FACTORY MODE or do I first have to go to SERVICE MODE and then FACTORY MODE. TIA

Joel

You can go directly to the Factory mode, there is no need to enter the Service mode first.

Thanks for the clarification!!!

The dealer was not telling the truth..fired the projector up...wnet into factory mode...only to find the original software...damn am I frustrated.

Decided not to even mount the projector as I am going to try and get the dealer to order me a brand new one with the prism assembly and firmware already upgraded.

Joel

If I am getting ready to purchase this projector, is this firmware and prism upgrade something I should definitely make sure is done, and if so how can I tell without opening it up and hooking it up and checking???

Thanks,

Ben

Originally posted by Ben98gs
If I am getting ready to purchase this projector, is this firmware and prism upgrade something I should definitely make sure is done, and if so how can I tell without opening it up and hooking it up and checking???

Thanks,

Ben

Ben:

If you are planning on using HDMI and/or want the best possible colour convergence then YES...you need both upgrades.

The only way to tell is to fire it up...enter the FACTORY menu...and look at the results. I suggest that you do this at the dealer and fire it against a blank wall.

See the other thread on the HS50/51 for details as to how to get into factory mode as I do not remember off hand but...it is there.

Joel

Well, I was definitely planning on running HDMI and want the best possible color convergence (or else I would be thinkin about a cheaper projector... lol).

So when did they start shipping out the upgraded units... That way I can try and find a place that hopefully "renews" stock and doesnt have the same projector sitting on the shelf from the time they started carrying them.

Let me ask you guys a question about getting a 1280x720 image from a laptop onto the PC. I've never done it. My friend's HS51 arrives tomorrow. We are hoping that we will simply connect the laptop to the projector and the plug and play type features will enable widescreen resolutions through the ATI drivers. Then we will simply select 1280x720 for HDMI and VGA connections. Am I ridiculously out in left field? Is powerstrip required or is that more generally used for creating custom timings and more intricate setups?

Can someone provide a step by step tutorial for the uninitiated as to how to get a 1280x720 image from a laptop to the projector? Vid card is Radeon 9000 if that makes a difference.

reaper

Software like powerstrip or the like will make it easier to tweak, but once you plug in the hs51, the video card should just be able to do 1280x720@60. As long as it has those timings in its driver inf files, if not, powerstrip time :)

Originally posted by reaper
Let me ask you guys a question about getting a 1280x720 image from a laptop onto the PC. I've never done it. My friend's HS51 arrives tomorrow. We are hoping that we will simply connect the laptop to the projector and the plug and play type features will enable widescreen resolutions through the ATI drivers. Then we will simply select 1280x720 for HDMI and VGA connections. Am I ridiculously out in left field? Is powerstrip required or is that more generally used for creating custom timings and more intricate setups?

Can someone provide a step by step tutorial for the uninitiated as to how to get a 1280x720 image from a laptop to the projector? Vid card is Radeon 9000 if that makes a difference.

reaper
Hi Reaper,
I did have to use Powerstrip on my laptop. The video card in my Thinkpad T41 is a Radeon Mobility 9000. Just installing powerstrip opened up additional resolutions with 1280 x 720 being one of them.
I then plugged in the VGA cable into the laptop from the projector, and went to the "settings" tab on the Display Properties screen. I then selected "Extend my Windows desktop onto this monitor".
This put my laptop into dual monitor configuration. THis allows me to use the laptop screen for whatever I need (such as the controls to my software DVD player or even a web browser). The projector is then the 2nd screen on which the display window can be dragged. You just then maximize the window on the projector, and you have you video displayed full screen.
This configuration is great since I can have a web browser available as well. I typically do "Previews" before my main feature by going to www.quicktime.com and downloading the movie trailers. (You just move the web broswer to the projector screen to show them).
My laptop does not have HDMI or DVI out, only VGA. I would assume that this would work the same way for HDMI (but you may have the masking problem around the edges).

Right now, I just use PowerDVD for watching movies, however I am planning to experiment with better software solutions soon (ffdshow,etc), but I haven't got to that point yet.

So, from memory:
1) Install powerstip
2) Plug in VGA cable
3) Go into Display properties
4) Select the Settings tab
5) Click on the projector display (You may have to specify 1280x720 at this point, I don't remember)
6) Select "Extend my Windows Desktop onto this monitor
7) Treat the projector as your 2nd monitor

Hope this helps.

John

To anyone who has sent the sony in for 720 update and prism block replacement:

Do you find that 720p via hdmi is really superior to you than 1080i? Also, what difference do you see with a new prism block?

Thanks!

Larry

anyone?

I will let you this weekend or early next week. Mine is in the hands of Juan as we speak. I asked for 720, prism alignment and lense shift tightening.

There's only one guy so far got the new prism block replaced, may be he has the answer for it. But i doubt itll' help with deinterlace or scaling sources

Eric,

Thanks. Actually, I overnighted mine to him yesterday as well. After seeing your last post, I decided to go for the same three fixes. By the way, do you kn ow if he will overnight them back to us? Maybe we can compare the results by early next week. By the way, what screen are you using?

Larry

Originally posted by larsil
By the way, what screen are you using?

Larry

Carada 110" Brillaint White Criterion

Eric,

Hey, me too, except I have the 100" and with a black wall, I got the non-criterion. Great screen.

Larry

I thought that grey screens were the ones recommended for LCD/DLP type projectors, something like the Stewart GreyHawk RS...?

That was the old school of thought for LCD to help the poor contrast. Now we have these new LCD projectors with impressive contrast. The grey screens are no longer required.

reaper

Originally posted by larsil
anyone?

720P has a slight edge in being less proccessed, and having a little cleaner picture. But everything else is the same. Grays, color, blacks.

Originally posted by reaper
That was the old school of thought for LCD to help the poor contrast. Now we have these new LCD projectors with impressive contrast. The grey screens are no longer required.

reaper

Interesting...I'm hoping to see this PJ in action soon, nobody in my area carries them, I'm going to have to make a day trip down to SF, once I find a store that has one set up, or even one of the members here in my area if they would be so gracious as to let me see their setup.

My biggest concern is light, I really don't want to have to turn my room into a cave on Sundays to watch football, and I'm not sure a LCD PJ will handle that sort of situation well...night viewing I don't imagine would be a problem, it's daytime sporting events and the like that concern me..

Yeah, this is nice
Owner of An HS50 ( pal sweden version ) and picture quality blows me away, so silent, so sweet, so great -i love it!
Picture download is a nice one, still it's a pity it lacks of size.
(Another photo with 1600x1200 pixel is amazing to watch but does not fit this site)

Originally posted by keenan
Interesting...I'm hoping to see this PJ in action soon, nobody in my area carries them, I'm going to have to make a day trip down to SF, once I find a store that has one set up, or even one of the members here in my area if they would be so gracious as to let me see their setup.

My biggest concern is light, I really don't want to have to turn my room into a cave on Sundays to watch football, and I'm not sure a LCD PJ will handle that sort of situation well...night viewing I don't imagine would be a problem, it's daytime sporting events and the like that concern me..

Daytime viewing is one reason why I didn't go with the white screen, and instead opted for a 110" firehawk. I don't need blackout drapes on the windows (just some horizontal blinds). I do however run the projector on auto iris, and lamp on high bulb output when I'm watching sports during the day. With the firehawk, I may lose something during night-time viewing, but I feel that I gain something for daytime sports viewing. There's always a tradeoff!

Friar

Originally posted by friar
Daytime viewing is one reason why I didn't go with the white screen, and instead opted for a 110" firehawk. I don't need blackout drapes on the windows (just some horizontal blinds). I do however run the projector on auto iris, and lamp on high bulb output when I'm watching sports during the day. With the firehawk, I may lose something during night-time viewing, but I feel that I gain something for daytime sports viewing. There's always a tradeoff!

Friar

Yep, there just doesn't seem to be a "one size fits all" solution...:(

Sony HS51 aka SOWK, pick one alias and stick to it.

Thanks,
Kyser

i'm going to take off the sticky since most of the discussion seems to be taking place in the other thread. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=444560

LOL! :D

I second Bytehoven's sentiments. If it weren't for this thread, I would not have known to send my 51 to Juan and get back the finest projector this side of $3500.00. In fact, after seeing the $25,000.00 Qualia last week, I am even happier because the hs51 get's pretty darn close - very, very close! - and for my small room, the hs51 is everything I could ever want. So, thanks for all the great advice and help I have received here.

Larry

Hello All: I had the HS51 up and running using an 82 inch GreyHawk RS screen and DVDO HD+. All of my components go into the DVDO and then I have a DVI out to the HDMI in on the Sony. This is my first front projector. As I was reading through the forum and discovered that some owners were returning their units for upgrades. Overall, I think that the picture quality is good. But I did check the software version: I have the original software...1.01. I guess my questions is: What will the new software upgrade to for me???? Thank you for your support.

So....Should I go through the hastle and danger of taking down my HS51...packing it up....and shipping it out.?????

Does anyone know the filter size on the lens? I know it's a bit bigger than 67mm... Thanks.

Help!

Just received the 51 and with progressive component I can not see any brightness pattern. Avia, DVE - nothing - even with brightness up to 100. Using a Sony DVD player that I know passes BTB and currently have a 10HT displays the pattern fine.

I also can't see the Avia 10IRE window pattern. The HS51 seems to be crushing blacks. Black level adjust is OFF, gamma correction is OFF. I've also tried with all of these in different positions, as well as all the iris settings, etc.

Can anyone help?

Pip

Originally posted by Kysersose
i'm going to take off the sticky since most of the discussion seems to be taking place in the other thread. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=444560

Kyser,

Might I respectfully suggest you "temporarily" ban individuals rather than close a dedicated thread which affects a great many HS51 owners? Why should all of us be "closed off", when its only a few rabble rousers who are stirring trouble?

This is a critical time...

A lot of us are just now getting our HS51 back from Laredo Service Center with the updates and would like to hear comments from each other regarding the updates/fixes.

Regards,
Steven

Originally posted by Rieper
Kyser,

Might I respectfully suggest you "temporarily" ban individuals rather than close a dedicated thread which affects a great many HS51 owners? Why should all of us be "closed off", when its only a few rabble rousers who are stirring trouble?

This is a critical time...

A lot of us are just now getting our HS51 back from Laredo Service Center with the updates and would like to hear comments from each other regarding the updates/fixes.

Regards,
Steven

Hear!! Hear!! I second that motion!! Theres a lot going on right now. I would really like to hear if anyone else has had the same negative experience I did with my returned 51!

Charles

Oh yeah, and if you are going to ban these guys, don't do it for very long. They all bring value to the forum even if they can't agree on anything. Even if it's just to agree to disagree! :) It is just a hobby after all, at least for most of us. :D :D :D

Does anyone know the filter size on the lens? I know it's a bit bigger than 67mm... Thanks.



postive? won't fit on 72mm here

I have been away from this thread for awhile enjoying my projector, so I need to apologize in advance for changing gears here on you.

I am ready for my first tweak and wanted the input of other owners. I am debating between an IMX lens or an outboard scaler. My question is which will give me the biggest improvement for the money. Also, if it is a scaler which is the scaler of choice for the HS51. I am running a D* HD Tivo and a Pioneer Elite 59AVi both through the HDMI.

Thanks for the input in advance.

HI all I am going to demo a sony hs50 soon and would like to know what the best settings are for this projector I know many people on here have diffrent setting but i would like to know all of them so that i can test the projector at its best

what brightness, contrast and other setting do you use
what settings for the user and what colour temp

I diod have a quick go of one and it seemed the cinama was the best picture setting ???

would love to see them all before i go next time so that i can make my mind up there and then

I watched my first Black and White movie on the HS51 this weekend...wow, that color shift problem is quite annoying. The right half of the image was noticeably red tinted, while the left half looked totally normally. Bummer. I've been looking for the post that details how to make this better (via factory menus) but can't find the right one....anyone know where that is?

My PJ looks like this after it came back from being upgraded, btw.

I think you want this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5068315) which describes the Factory "Gamma" menu. It allows adjusting the color uniformity across the screen if you have the patience. If you don't, you might want to send it back for service. I never saw a significant problem with this before or after sending mine for service. I wouldn't say it's perfect, but I don't find it distracting when watching B&W movies.

If you look at the numbers under this menu it would appear that Sony is setting them on a unit by unit basis, so they must have some automated method of doing what is a tedious manual process. Maybe the service center has the equipment to adjust it.

A while back there was some discussion in the huge "Official" thread about changes in Iris behavior of units coming back from service.

I was looking through the service manual and came across a section titled "Iris Adjustment". I had sent my unit for service (blanking fix), so decided to try the adjustment and see if the settings were correct. I had recorded the Iris settings before sending the unit for service, and they had not been changed as a result of the service. The adjustment process resulted in slightly different settings, so maybe it is a good idea to check it if your unit was serviced.

Before Adjustment:
Open Reg: 42
Close Reg: 210

After Adjustment:
Open Reg: 40
Close Reg: 202

If anyone wants to try it, here are the steps. This is in my own words, the original instructions in the manual are not the best English.

Open the Factory menu.
Open the Device menu and select Other.
Use the up/down arrows to select the setting, the right/left arrows to change the setting.
Record your current 35/Open Reg and 36/Close Reg settings in case you need to go back.
Change 34/Iris Adj from 0 to 1.
Set 35/Open Reg to 0 and record the value of 37/Open Hall.
Increase 35/Open Reg and frequently check 37/Open Hall. You can probably go pretty quickly until you get close to the original setting. Stop as soon as 37/Open Hall has decreased by 2 from the value recorded when 35/Open Reg was set to 0.
Increase 35/Open Reg by 10 from the value in the last step.
Set 36/Close Reg to 255 and record the setting of 38/Close Hall.
Set 36/Close Reg to 0 and record the value of 38/Close Hall.
Increase 36/Close Reg and frequently check 38/Close Hall. You can probably go pretty quickly until you get close to the original setting. Stop as soon as 38/Close Hall is 1 higher than the value recorded when 36/Close Reg was set to 255.
Decrease 36/Close Reg by 14 from the setting in the last step.
Record your new settings and compare to the original.
Change 34/Iris Adj from 1 back to 0.
Press Enter to go back to the Device menu, select Save to Memory and press Enter.

I was looking through the service manual and came across a section titled "Iris Adjustment".


Hi jschefdog,

Where we cand find this famous service manual ?

Thank you

Just got a used hs51 from forum member with about 300 hours. This is my 3rd, after panny ae100 and the current benq pb6200 DLP. This is a quick summary before any calibration.

W/o using AVIA, the current setting is as follow, projecting into a HCCV 45x80 at a distance of about 2X:

Noise: minimal comparing to the benq (both about 2 ft in front of me)

Color/hue/sharpness is at 50
contrast 80
Brightness 60
color temp medium
cinema mode with auto iris on, at low lamp

Contrast: not as 3D or snanppy

Black level: no light leakage; no eye strain at all with Sin City; I do see RBE with the benq, but no headache; it's more an annoyance factor but my wife does have headache. Looked blacker than benq.

Color: red is better than benq

SDE: none; neither was the panny ae100 at 2X.

Overall picture: dvd seemed a bit soft, using zenith 318 with component cable to upconvert to 1080i; 480p was bad; 720p had the problem of smaller picture; guessed the firmware was old. BTW, with the 1080i; Wide Mode is DISABLED or not applicable; no issue with the wide mode at 480p. XXX State of the Union was squashed; lucky the zenith has both vertical and horizontal zoom adjustment.

I've no HD, but ordered a HDMI-DVI-D cable for the zenith.

Comments or suggestion from anyone with HCCV and/or zenith 318 is greatly appreciated.

Rationale for going with an old sony: not impressed with the current D5 LCD or the new sony's price. Will wait for C2Fine or the new sony panels. DLP at 1080 should be at an "approachable" price point in two-three years.

Please pardon my rambling and thank you for all the forum member's support since 2002.

Time for Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6964138#post6964138

Having said that, I wonder what your factory auto-iris settings are... On the HS50 there was some variation between units, so some would say "great blacks" vs "poor blacks" or "dim unit" vs "bright unit", because the iris would close more or less, according to the factory setting. My HS60 has the CloseReg setting at 221, which I actually find to be a little too much (too dark and more visible action of the iris on dark scenes), but maybe I need to do some more tweaking. Having it on 215-218 for now appears to provide a little bit more pleasurable experience (dark scenes are brighter and there is less iris movement perception), at a sacrifice of a slightly worse black level on very dark scenes (only).



Funny my unit HS50 has the same CloseReg setting at 221

lg

I have a new 51A and am thinking of getting the OPPO DVD with the DCDi scaler. What interface configuration will I need to use to get the DCDi scaler to override the scaler in the 51A such that there is the minimum of processing but that I get the DCDi scaling?

The OPPO has DVI output and I have a DVI cable and a HDMI adapter.

If there is a forum topic on these issues please point me to it.

Thanks for any tips/advice.

M./

Funny my unit HS50 has the same CloseReg setting at 221

lg

Well, that's a high value, but your pj picture may be perfectly ok with that setting. This is just another example of how different the settings are from unit to unit (and not just the iris), probably due to factory variations in the panels, lamps, whatever... The values themselves are probably meaningless to compare between units.

What matters is if you feel that setting is ok for you. On my particular HS60 unit, and on very dark scenes only, I still find 221 to be a little bit too much, as those scenes appear a bit too dark and subtitles change visibly back and forth from white to gray. Also, the brightness changes are more visible on shadow detail. Changing my setting from 221 to 218 (after a few adjustments, this is my current best setting) makes it all appear more neutral. I don't notice differences in middle brightness and bright scenes from that change.

I haven't spent much time tweaking my unit as I spent with my previous HS50, so I may change this value again. ;) Also, I haven't yet tried the procedure for the iris adjustment described by jschefdog (don't even know if those values are correct for the HS60/51A, probably not)...

Dave.

Wow, what a waste ! Have a nice projector like HS51A n using an elcheapo player like OPPO. The Sony deserves something better.


I have a new 51A and am thinking of getting the OPPO DVD with the DCDi scaler. What interface configuration will I need to use to get the DCDi scaler to override the scaler in the 51A such that there is the minimum of processing but that I get the DCDi scaling?

The OPPO has DVI output and I have a DVI cable and a HDMI adapter.

If there is a forum topic on these issues please point me to it.

Thanks for any tips/advice.

M./

Wow, what a waste ! Have a nice projector like HS51A n using an elcheapo player like OPPO. The Sony deserves something better.


Do you mean it deserves something better "just to talk about it" or in that there is something that will deliver substantially better visual performance for a moderate increase in price over the OPPO?

You see I actually bought the very first consumer VCR in 1978 (the original Betamax) and I have had a 7 foot diagonal home theater since 1983. Over the years I have owned well over $150,000 worth of exotic gear and I am all over with the idea of owning something for anything but its ability to perform.

From everything I have read the OPPO delivers a high degree of performance at a price such that you need to spend many many times its price to get any visual improvement.

But if you know of a DVD player only (no CD, SACD crap since if I want high-quality audio performance I will play vinyl) that is a better value than the OPPO, then post about it.

But if "deserves something better" means something with a thick faceplate or fancy remote well, I've been there and done that and it's boring to me now.

Also, I saw a Blu-ray vs. DVD demo at CES and the improvement was such that I would not spend very much $$ on DVD at this time. But again, if you know of a much better player in the same general range . . .

Thanks for the reply,

M./

I found an new Service Menu tweak worth looking into.

Once you are in the FACTORY service mode, go to the bottom menu below W/B, then go into DISPLAY ENGINE. Look for...

04 DE/UF SW = 1 try changing it to 0.

This controls the GAMMA shading section inf the Service menu, 1 = ON, 0 = OFF.

When you put up full field grayscale test patterns, and you go from 0 to 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 & 100, do any of the patterns appear to be a little more red on one side/corner and blue on the opposite side/corner? If yes, try watching one of the test patterns while changing 04 DE/UF SW to 0. You will see the side to side red/blue bias disappear.

It has come to my attention Sony does not do a perfect job of programming the GAMMA shading section in the factory service menu. My projector was recently repaired, and while it was restored to it's previous good condition, the GAMMA shading was back to normal but still not perfect. I attempted to pick the most offending luminance level in the GAMMA menu and began writing down the settings while I remapped everything to 0-0-0. I found when I had remapped all 273 point adjustments, all of the red/blue bias error went away. Unfortunately, the setting changes did not stick as they somehow switched back to their previously programed value as I continued to work with the projector.

Hmmm, I thought. Maybe there is a way to turn this GAMMA shaping section off. So I began looking. I found it. Line item #4 of the DISPLAY ENGINE factory menu controls the GAMMA shaping ON/OFF condition.

I'm gonna see if there is a way to SAVE changes within the GAMMA shaping menu, since the SAVE option in the service menu did not work.

Some folks have said their projector also exhibits a red/blue bias. Give this tweak a try and post your results.

OK sports fans, here are some new calibration numbers with the gamma shading turned OFF.

These were dialed in using the Progressive Labs CA-6X.

cont = 80
bright = 50
color = 50
hue = 50
auto iris

ColorTemp....6500k...7500k....9300k

RG.................138.......124........123
GG...................49.........49..........45
BG...................55.........63..........76
RB.................126.......124........123...
GB.................132.......129........130
BB.................134.......132.........131

Delta for all of these color temps were .5-4 except 100 = 9-ish I really didn't mind 100 being a little more blue.

Oddly enough GAMMA 3 provided the best tracking of 2.2 gamma. GAMMA 2, 1 & OFF progressively dipped under with 40 having the greatest dip to 3.1. Eric and I have talked about using Image Director to tweak Gamma 3 to correct the very bottom and top, but I'm not diving into that now.

The new LOW MID & HIGH temps provided by Sony were all over the map. :confused: Although they did track better with the service manue GAMMA shading turned on, but they were not anywhere near 6500/7500/9300.

Hi Bytehoven,

Now that you have done all that great work . . .

Is the image *substantially* better than you had it using whatever visual method you might have tried first time through (DVE, Avia, THX cal etc.) such that you can look back on all the hours and expense and say you received good value for your time/money?

I mean does it knock you back on how much better it is visually or are there subtleties that only you would notice because you remember how it once looked?

I ask because I have weaned myself off the "why split hairs in 2 when you can rotate them again and split them into 4s" mentality I had when I was an audiophile and I would like to stay away from it but I am a life long film fan (I bought a BetaMax the first year so I could tape movies that showed at 3 AM) and I have a new 51A too ;-)

Thanks for any info.

M./

Yes, I do see a difference.

While it's possible to get a rough grayscale track using a split grayscale test pattern, it's amazing how far off you can go and your eye will compensate.

The main problem with trying to do it by eye, is what can happen to the color of gray/white during a fade to black or on a film like Sin City. The color of gray/white starts jumping all over the place, and it's very apparent. When you are able to get the color temp within 0-200k of the base line from top to bottom, the stability in gray/white is apparent.

The very bottom and top 0-10 & 100 on the HS-51 still run a little blue, but it's so much better than before.

Next step is dialing in the Primaries and Secondaries so RGBCMY all look as accurate and saturated as possible.

Is it worth it to buy a rig like the CA-6X & AVIA Pro? For me yes, as I can use the equipment on other professional monitors in the studio, as well as to recalibrate a family room Sony 41" CRT RPTV that was ISF calibrated about 12 years ago.

There are some less expensive calibration tools, including the Spyder TV Pro due out in March. The calibrating process is a little over whelming, but it's also alot of fun when you start getting tha hang of how to manipulate the projector controls.

Incidently, the method I had used previously is called the Kodak Gray Card techinque. I have grayscale and colorbar chip cards designed for use in FILM/Video shooting, and when you shine a 6500k, 7500 or alternate temp lamp on them, they provide an accurate grayscale reference.

At some point, maybe I could try this calibration technique again and measure how much the grayscale track varies from a properly calibrated track. IMHO you run into the largest errors in the 0-30 and 80-100 video ranges.

Yes, I do see a difference.

The color of gray/white starts jumping all over the place, and it's very apparent. When you are able to get the color temp within 0-200k of the base line from top to bottom, the stability in gray/white is apparent.

The very bottom and top 0-10 & 100 on the HS-51 still run a little blue, but it's so much better than before.

Is it worth it to buy a rig like the CA-6X & AVIA Pro? For me yes, as I can use the equipment on other professional monitors in the studio, as well as to recalibrate a family room Sony 41" CRT RPTV that was ISF calibrated about 12 years ago.

There are some less expensive calibration tools, including the Spyder TV Pro due out in March. The calibrating process is a little over whelming, but it's also alot of fun when you start getting tha hang of how to manipulate the projector controls.



I have a Spyder2Pro with the 2.0 SW so based on reading the forum thread on that product line it seems I could go with that although I have yet to see a step by step writeup on the 'best practices' procedure. I own it because I calibrate monitors for graphic artists and myself. I think it was determined that I could also buy the CA-6X and use it with my Spyder although that Spyder thread was the most confusing I have ever read on the 'Net.

What sensor were you using?

I used to calibrate Kloss Novabeams and was a consultant to LightSource when they were developing the Colortron (I owned 2 of those) so I know most of the principles. It's not what I would call daunting but my real main reason for not wanting to wade in too far is wondering how high up the spike in performance I want to live. When I had some direct heated triode gear I could hear that it didn't get on the money until it had been on for about 6-8 hours sitting there dissipating 450 watts/hour. It wasn't as much fun until I let it warm up that far. I jump through hoops making my espresso and on and on. My fun factor would go way down if I needed to re-cal every 200 hours on the bulb etc.

My point is that if you don't know what you are missing, sometimes life can actually be more fun ;-).

But anyway, I will probably fool with it some when I get more hours on the bulb. I can see the red/green errors in the greys on the classic Noir films I like to watch.

Are there any threads/posts that you can recommend I read on accessing the service menus etc. on the 51/51A? that 50/51 thread is 170+ screens.

Thanks for the feedback above.

M./

Awtryau89 has talked about starting a new 51A/60 tweak thread, and maybe that's a great idea. He has said there are somethings very different on the new projector which make calibration a little easier, and I am looking forward to playing with the 51A one of these days.

I have the standard probe which comes the the CA-6X. The software can take a number of other probes, but I don't know which make/model Progressive uses as there new standard probe.

Here is a pic of what it looks like. The back side has concentric cirles of small suction cups for attaching the diffuser.

http://www.progressivelabs.net/images/probe_only.jpg

I was tempted to wait on the Spyder TV Pro since it's price is going to be nearly half of the CA-6X, but I decided to jump Progressive rig now rather than wait.

Let me know if you have any questions regarding tweaking the HS-51/51A. I'm sure Eric (awtryau89) will also be glad to share what he has been learning about the new projector.

One thing I will say, the service menu digital RGB gain/bias adjustments are sure alot easier to deal with than the analog pots I'm going to have to play with when I get around to recalibrating my old Sony RPTV. :D

Greetings,

Byte, I have been using the setting previously posted by Kris Deering and have been satisfied with them. Have you used those settings and if so will your new ones here be an improvement?


Thanks for your hard work and for posting the results.


Regards,

Greetings,

Byte, I have been using the setting previously posted by Kris Deering and have been satisfied with them. Have you used those settings and if so will your new ones here be an improvement?


Thanks for your hard work and for posting the results.


Regards,

Oddly enough, Kris' calibrations worked good on my projector before the Laredo repair, which included a replacement of the prism block (including the LCD panels).

Since then, none of my old calibrations look right. Also consider I turned off the gamma shading for better screen uniformity, and this causes me to lose a little more red bias over all.

My new calibrations might be worth a try for anyone also seeing a benefit of turning off the gamma shading.

What's funny, I'm not sure what Sony was thinking with the new LOW, MID & HIGH color temps settings they programmed in during my repair. They were totally whacked out gamma shading or no gamma shading. Well those settings have been offically replaced. :D

Greetings,

Byte, I am going to throw up some gray fields and check for any bias shifting. If so I will try turning of the gamma shading and see what the results are.

I took a look at the new SpyderTV Pro. I see no reference to it's use with front projectors. What's the scoop for those of us who might consider using this as a tool for a front projector?

Thanks again.

Regards,