Please have some respect and place your general questions in the Official Sony HS50(51) thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=444560) and respect those that either own this projector, will soon own this projector (have it on order) or are actually trying to help those seriously tweaking the Sony VPL-HS50/1 projector. Thank you!

Heh, so much for the tweak thread.

If I had mine to tweak, I would be posting, but I don't. I choose to believe that those that have received their projectors are either tweaking away and we will hear from them soon (as Brian has admitted) or they are so engrossed in watching movies, they haven't gotten into the tweaking mode yet.

At this point I've read enough to confirm my buying decision. The tweaks will be icing on the cake. Now, let's turn our collective energies to finding a way to shame Sony into filling more orders so we can all tweak!!

Happy Holidays to all!

Chuck

Could this be that some are finding the out of the box experience to be enough?

That's my optimistic view.

It could be that the out-of-the-box experience is enough for some but..
I am planning to apply SMART III tool over the next week, for starters.
One thing though is that i do not know if calibrating with smart iii should applied with iris off,on or auto OR if this has nothing to do with d65 calibration. You see i have the generic version for smart iii so i can calibrate and measure contrast before and after (possible will do measure contrast in all 3 iris settings).

Any ideas/suggestions will help a lot.

Cheers,

Nick

I have smart 3 as well and plan to use it when I am off the week after Christmas.

One tweak is to use this projector with iris auto and bulb low with a high gain screen. I am using a Da-lite High Power screen with it and dimmness is not an issue anymore whatsoever. Although, a high gain screen has its pluses and minuses, overall, I like it beter than the HCMW (1.0 gain screen) with this PJ, because of the obivous advantages of gain.

One other device I would like to use with this is the IMX lens which eliminates pixel structure on the screen but I do not have a source where I can try it out before buying it.

Ferret,

Tell the moderator to make this official and keep it at the top of the forum always.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Could this be that some are finding the out of the box experience to be enough?

My in the box experience is actually becoming quite enjoyable. I received mine on Monday and haven't moved it from the spot at my front door. I haven't even tweaked the position. In fact since I have no tables in my living room at the moment or any usable anywhere else, I've been setting my beer on it in the evenings. Thus far it has been a battle of wills.

I would post except I don't know what to do with it. I have not even read the manual, just changing things to taste. Avia so far has been useless. You loose control over many items going vga input, so any tweaking is through desktop controls.

I am somewhere around brightness of 50-55 and contrast of 55-60 if memory serves me correctly with lamp in low mode, iris on auto and temperature on medium. Low is too "warm" for me, at least with many movies.

Something I need to get a grasp of is the RCP (real color processing). The adjustments are confusing (especially since I have not read the manual). When you move the range for instance there is no number scale to tell you where you started. Just this pie chart looking thing with various color slivers that you slide back and forth. Not real clear to me what to do but moving red for instance left makes them more crimson and to the right makes them more orange.

Brian

Yeah, this is nice:)
Owner of An HS50 ( pal sweden version ) and picture quality blows me away, so silent, so sweet, so great -i love it!
Picture download is a nice one, still it's a pity it lacks of size.
(Another photo with 1600x1200 pixel is amazing to watch but does not fit this site)

One thing i am currently trying to determine is what short of signal is better, and i explain. I am using a sony 999es dvdp connected through components, outputing progressive signal in both ntsc and pal disks.
What i have found so far is that progressive from 999es gives me a more soft and brighter image (but to soft for me!).
When i change to interlace then the pq is sharper but less bright!
Since i am using a high contrast grey screen of 2,5 meters width (approx. 110" diagonal) with a gain of 1, i can use all the brightness i can have since i prefer the low lamp mode (is very quite vs high lamp mode which annoys me in quite parts of the movie).
So far havent made up my mind !!

Regards

Nick

PS I also prefer the mid color temp.

Originally posted by nb2121
It could be that the out-of-the-box experience is enough for some but..
I am planning to apply SMART III tool over the next week, for starters.
One thing though is that i do not know if calibrating with smart iii should applied with iris off,on or auto OR if this has nothing to do with d65 calibration. You see i have the generic version for smart iii so i can calibrate and measure contrast before and after (possible will do measure contrast in all 3 iris settings).

Any ideas/suggestions will help a lot.

Cheers,

Nick

Well hopefully I will be joining the tweakers soon as supposedly my powerbuy dealer has gotten six in and I am fourth on the list so just waiting to hear from them.

Does anyone know if changing the gamma affects the grayscale? If it doesn't then it seems we could calibrate the grayscale with the iris in either the on or off position (or auto for that matter).

I also have smart III so will be using that. Any news on the supposedly cheaper version of colorfacts coming for ces?

Gamma settings are as follows:
Off, Gamma 1, Gamma 2, Gamma 3.

Initially is Gamma = off.
I have found that this setting gives the most contrasty picture whereas settings from 1 to 3 give better shadow detail in exchange of the more contrasty perseption. Dark films can be better viewed in setting 1 or 2 wictch provide better details in the dark (but you lose the unique deep blacks that the off setting seems to offer - or at list the perception of them).

Well, i toggle between off and 1 so far.
Another experiment i am currently taking is to have gamma to either 1 or 2 and engage the Black Level setting to On. This gives me a better shadow detail and nice (perceived ??) blacks (or better a little crushed blacks) that compensate the the less aggressive gamma curve.

Well, experimantation continues !!

Regards

Nick

Just came back from watching Star Wars VI.
Well, one thing is for sure. If you need a very film like picture which will be more soft than sharp then use progressive signal from your dvdp (at least this applies to my 999es). If you feed the pj with interlaced signal then the picture is more sharp and "lcd like" but with no SD at all (at least from my viewing distance = 1,8 X screen width).
Looks like electronics/scaler of the HS50 are giving different pq than those of the 999es. Go feagure !

Nick

Nick, I am not sure I paid close enough attention during the i/P testing via the Panasonic Rp-56. We had switched back/forth to see if the deinterlacing internal to the Sony was better/worse than the Faroudja DCDi. I wonder if its really the deinterlacing, or just how the signal is handled in scaling.

For instance, maybe the Sony has a single processor that deinterlaces & scales, while it may use a dedicated scaler for progressive signals.

I cannot get my HT-PC which uses a Nvidia Gforce 5200 card and VGA connection to fill the screen using my HS-51. I have set the resolution to 1288 by 788. I was wondering if anyone has used the image director software that comes with the projector? Does the software allow you to stretch the picture to fill the screen?

Why 1288x788? The native panel resolution is 1280x720. I think the only thing the software does is to adjust the gamma.

Do this, go into the driver properties via the icon in the tray and select 1280X720 and 60hz. The HS51 will do its APA thing and you should get a very nice picture.

Or... I used powerstrip "1280X720-LCD" and this appears to give me pixel perfect.

There is a note in the manual by the way that states pretty clearly that if you do not use one of the standard resolutions you will get exactly what you described.

Brian

Originally posted by TheFerret
Nick, I am not sure I paid close enough attention during the i/P testing via the Panasonic Rp-56. We had switched back/forth to see if the deinterlacing internal to the Sony was better/worse than the Faroudja DCDi. I wonder if its really the deinterlacing, or just how the signal is handled in scaling.

For instance, maybe the Sony has a single processor that deinterlaces & scales, while it may use a dedicated scaler for progressive signals.

Might be the latter, since it ''seems'' that the hs50/51 "handles its panels" better in terms of scaling/deinterlacing (it reminds me that i have read somewhere that Infocus advise to use interlaced signals with the 777 for better results whatsoever).

So HS50/51 vs Sony DVP 999ES goes in favor of the HS50/51 (at least for my eyes).

Nick

I can't wait to get my HS50 but I amuse myself by reading the posts on this forum:)

Has anyone played arround with the resolution inputs namely this one.
With a HTPC and powerstrip would it enable playback of NTSC and PAL encoded discs full screen and enable just one set of calibration to hold true.?

Your thoughts please.

Has anyone played arround with the resolution inputs namely this one. With a HTPC and powerstrip would it enable playback of NTSC and PAL encoded discs full screen and enable just one set of calibration to hold true.?

Your thoughts please.

Me no comprende?

Brian

I think he just wants to use an HTPC & RGB for a single input and then use the software DVD player with a single setting for multiple regions. I presume PAL uses its own color space, too, right?

Thanks for the info. It looks like I will need to get Powerstrip. 1280x720 was not one of the selectable resolutions for my video card. There was something like 1920 x 1080 but the shape didn't look right either.

Lonnie

Lonnie, didn't look right from the projector or the computer monitor?

If you want to investigate the Service and Factory menus, here is how to access them. The usual warnings apply. Write down all default settings before you change them and be careful, especially in the Factory menu.

Under the user menu (click MENU key on remote), check that Setup/Status is turned ON. If not, turn it ON.
Exit the user menu by clicking the MENU key.
To enter the Service Menu, on the remote quickly click ENTER, ENTER, UP, DOWN, ENTER. When prompted to enter SERVICE MODE click UP for Yes. To return to User mode click the same sequence then when prompted to return to USER MODE click UP for Yes.
To enter the Factory Menu, on the remote quickly click ENTER, ENTER, LEFT, ENTER. When prompted to enter the FACTORY MODE click UP for Yes. To return to User mode click the same sequence then when prompted to return to USER MODE click UP for Yes.

Once in these modes click MENU on the remote and you will see new items at the bottom.

Service Mode adds a W/B menu (I'm guessing White Balance?) which allows tweaking the 6 color temperture options (High, Med, Low, Custom 1,2,3). It also lists additional details under the Information menu. Other than that, I could not see much difference from User Mode. But if all you want to do is adjust the gray scale this should get you there.

Factor Mode adds a menu at the bottom which provides access to a variety of cryptic settings probably best left alone unless you know what you are doing.

This was also posted in the huge Official forum, but it is probably worth repeating here where people seeking tips and tweaks can find it. It applies mainly to using Input A (Computer) on the HS51, but you can use it with HDMI as well to see if you are getting all the pixels. The patterns can be used with any HTPC or display.

The attached zip file contains a 1280x720 pixel bitmap file that you can set as your Windows desktop background. It is a 1x1 pixel B&W checkerboard which includes corner markers at 1, 5, and 10 pixels. Set this as your windows background/wallpaper and you can insure that you are getting the full 1280x720 pixels displayed.

If you see any interference patterns using Input A, use Menu, Signal, Adjust Signal, Vsize and Dot Phase to reduce or eliminate them. If you can't see the 1 pixel corner markers, use Signal, Adjust Signal, Shift to move the image around. Once you have it adjusted you must turn off "Smart APA" under the Function menu, otherwise the next time you turn on the PJ it will change the settings. You can always click the APA button on the remote if you want the PJ to adjust the settings, but it never provided the perfect settings for me (although it will get close).

To set this as your background, right click on the Desktop, select Properties. Open the Desktop tab and click Browse. Find the file and select it.

Using this method I was able to get 1 to 1 pixel mapping on a few different 1280x720@60Hz settings from the HTPC, so it may not be necessary to get Powerstrip if your graphics card already supports this resolution and frequency. However, page 57 of the manual lists the officially supported "preset signal #56" settings for 1280x720 if you are using Powerstrip.

The zip also contains some GIF patterns that you can load into an image viewer. 1 pixel vertical lines, a 2 pixel grid pattern and 2 pixel diagonal lines. If you can view all of these with no interference patterns you have the optimum settings. You must make sure you are viewing these GIF images at 100% or FULL size. They are 1386x788 pixels in size, so if you don't have scroll bars on a 1280x720 display they are being scaled down. The Windows Picture and Fax Viewer that opens in XP if your right click a GIF and select Preview has an "Actual Size" button at the bottom that will work.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jschefdog
[...........

Service Mode adds a W/B menu (I'm guessing White Balance?) which allows tweaking the 6 color temperture options (High, Med, Low, Custom 1,2,3). It also lists additional details under the Information menu. Other than that, I could not see much difference from User Mode. But if all you want to do is adjust the gray scale this should get you there."

Correct!
It is for white balance nut it is actualy 3 settings. The custom 1,2,3 are identical to high,mid, low and are there for having a starting point to tweak.

Regards,

Nick

PS. If i have the time i will proceed to apply smart 3 this weekend. Stay tuned!

Thats exactly what I want to do, I have a mix of PAL and NTSC encoded disks and would just like one setting to run them on.

Hello,

I don't know if this might be of interest but I found the information on a French forum discussing the HS50/51 using a HTPC.
On Input A (VGA) following refresh rates were tested:

1280x720 @ 60 Hz works 1:1 pixel mapping, no tearing
1280x720 @ 48 Hz works!!!!!! 1:1 pixel mapping, no tearing
1280x720 @ 72 Hz tearing
1280x720 @ 50 Hz seems to work but no 1:1 pixel mapping

Cheers

Anthony

Anthony, with 1280x720 @ 50 Hz seems to work but no 1:1 pixel mapping was the result cropping/blanking and was there tearing involved? Its interesting that the PAL-region units can't PAL-well. :) Has anyone tried the DOT-phase adjustment in the Factory menu?

Can someone test to see what Blacl-Level modes produce ringing on DVD's? I think some, but not all, may be doing this. I know someone already stated he observed ringing on Cinema-mode.

Coming from the land of Mitsubishi RPTV's I remember we came up with some extraordinary methods to get rid of red push and ringing, (I2C) which involved hooking up a computer to an internal circuit board connector and a computer program some interprising guy created. It worked wonders. I wonder if there is any ringing or internal sharpness settings that can be adjusted with service menu or something more drastic?

Brian

I'll be honest in saying I do not know what ringing is in the sense of what causes it. BTW, I also have a Mits RPTV, but it is unmodified.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Anthony, with 1280x720 @ 50 Hz seems to work but no 1:1 pixel mapping was the result cropping/blanking and was there tearing involved? Its interesting that the PAL-region units can't PAL-well. :) Has anyone tried the DOT-phase adjustment in the Factory menu?
The result of feeding 1280x720@50Hz to Input A from a HTPC is very odd. It looks very similar to 720P on the HDMI input, complete with black borders and lack of 1 to 1 pixel mapping (B&W checkerboard becomes uniform gray). If I used Powerstrip to move the frequency away from 50 Hz by about 1.5 Hz in either direction the screen would go black for a second, and refresh looking similar to other settings on Input A (no black borders). My guess is that somehow 1280x720@50Hz on Input A is being routed through the same processing that causes the HDMI issues.

Wow, that really is weird. Maybe the EC will fine Sony, hehe.

Well,

Just finished smart iii calibration on my HS50, using the generic version of smart tool.

So, here how it goes....

Initially, with Low color temp, Iris at Auto and lamp at low i calibrated with AVIA giving me brightness of 64 and contrast difficult to determine.
I started smart at the above settings and made the first (default) measurements prior to the calibration. These measurements gave me the following data (using a 94,5 inch width screen of 1 gain):

33 Lux at IRE 100
3,1 ft L at screen
107 Lumens

Contrast was:

117 Lux at 4 ft at IRE 100 and
0,05 Lux at 4 ft at IRE 0 giving a contrast ratio of 2.600

Same data for above settings BUT with High Lamp were:

44 Lux at IRE 100
4,1 ft L at screen
143 Lumens

Contrast was:

149 Lux at 4ft at IRE 100 and
0,07 Lux at 4ft at IRE 0 giving a contrast of 2.129.

Proceeding with SMART III D65 calibration (over the Low default settings), the program advised that Red was way up and advised to reduce it from 128 gain which was the default to 90. No changes needed for Blue and Green gain (39 and 30 respectivelly) and after obtained the proper color balance Smart advised me that i also have reached the Targeted Gamma (2,4).

Then I moved to the final stage of SMART calibration which is the correct setting of contrast according to which, we maximise contrast according to the readings obtained from the color with the largest gain value (Red in my case). This gave me a contrast setting of 97 !!!
Then i also checked all available color temps to find the max contrast before Red color is maxed out and i also got the same readings (from 95 to 98 !!).

So after setting the contrast, i went back to measure the calibrated (at D65) brightness AND contrast levels.

Following are these results:

Low lamp mode - Smart calibrated at D65 (in parenthesis are the same values before calibration for your ease of compearing):

55 Lux at screen for IRE 100 (33),
ft L at screen 5,1 (3,1),
Lumens 178 (107)

Lux at 4 ft at IRE 100 = 210 (117)
Lux at 4 ft at IRE 0 = 0,04 (0,05)

FINAL CONTRAST RATIO = 5.250 (2.600) !!!!!

Results for HIGH lamp where:

Lux at 4 ft at IRE 100 = 267 (149)
Lux at 4 ft at IRE 0 = 0,06 (0,07)

FINAL CONTRAST RATIO = 4.450 (2.129) !!!!!


Regards

Nick

:D :D

So help me out here, you lowered red (which I also kind of thought was needed) but where? You raised contrast to 95-98? That is thru the roof?... but I do not see any signs of bluming adjusting either. Where did brightness end up? And if I understand you correctly no other settings were changed?

Which input and source was this?

Brian

I would like to know how the CR measured post-SMART3 with contrast set to 80.

Originally posted by usabrian
So help me out here, you lowered red (which I also kind of thought was needed) but where? You raised contrast to 95-98? That is thru the roof?... but I do not see any signs of bluming adjusting either. Where did brightness end up? And if I understand you correctly no other settings were changed?

Which input and source was this?

Brian

Yep, I lowered red, but since i left green and blue almost the same (blue bias was only -3 from initial) i thought that perhaps i could leave red as is and raise with the same proportion the green and blue so to keep balance but have higher gains, which i did and color balance remaind the same with post Smart but now, contrast was raised only to 90.
So, make your pick. Either lower red and max contrast or increase green and blue and keep contrast setting to a more reasonable level (i.e 88 -90).

To make all these changes you must enter service menu.
Keep also in mind that custom 1, 2, 3 color temps are identical to High, middle and low, so i used the custom 3 (low) as a base to calibrate.

Brighntness is at 60 -64 (AVIA says 64 but my eyes say 60).

Input is components from a SONY DVP 999ES player sending interlaced to HS50 (i discovered that this gives me a more clean and sharp pq than sending progressive signal from the 999es to the HS50).

Nick

Originally posted by TheFerret
I would like to know how the CR measured post-SMART3 with contrast set to 80.

Did not measure since Smart dictated contrast at 97.
Also, Smart3 advised after calibration for a CC40R filter for optimum CR.
Wonder at what CR levels this will lead !!!

Nick

Yeah, if the red gain was dropped to 90 it would require essentially maxing out the contrast (if it works anything like the HS10 &20 I've worked with).

A 40R filter might measure great, but with the lumens you posted it better be a really small, high gain screen:) Thanks for the numbers- interesting!

Originally posted by TheFerret
I would like to know how the CR measured post-SMART3 with contrast set to 80.

TheFerret,

I will try to make a second measurement post-SMART3 with C at 80 and let you know.

One last thing is that it seems I like more the "second" set of numbers i ended up with a more reasonable Contrast setting (90).
That is to leave Red at 128 (instead of moving it down to 90 as Smart says) and increase Green and Blue by the same % of the Red decrease (from 128 to 90) having the same RGB balance but with higher RGB gains (thus more punch). Mind that bias remain unchanged (to the initial Low temp. ones).
All these lead to RGB gains VERY close to the Middle color temp but with a slight less G and B gains. In this case (my custom setting and Middle one) the biggest diff. is in the Bias numbers (mine - SMART3 are less high).


Nick

I guess I am just trying to correlate what WSR noted about the CR setting and the results therein. I also do not know what the consequences may be for maximizing the CR setting as almost had done. So, my curious nature makes me wonder. :)

Originally posted by TheFerret
I guess I am just trying to correlate what WSR noted about the CR setting and the results therein. I also do not know what the consequences may be for maximizing the CR setting as almost had done. So, my curious nature makes me wonder. :)

Done with measurements with B & C settings at default (50 and 80 resp.).

With Low lamp setting C=3.260 and with High Lamp setting = 2.957.

But i remind you that AFTER smart3 my B was at 64 and C at 97 (which i droped to 90 as it looks better - less punchy- for my eyes).

Nevertheless, i am planning for a recalibration with SMART 3 the next few days and this time i might done without engaging the Auto Iris feature.

Nick

I think if you turn the iris to ON or Off it will not open or close fully. I cannot remember where I got this and I could be wrong. By turning off the iris what are you looking to accomplish?

Originally posted by TheFerret
I think if you turn the iris to ON or Off it will not open or close fully. I cannot remember where I got this and I could be wrong. By turning off the iris what are you looking to accomplish?

Actually, by turning the iris On it is fully closed vs Off which is fully Open.
The Auto setting is the one which does not allow the full close or open of the Iris.

By turning the Iris off i am trying to have the max lumens so to have more accurate readings for SMART sensor in the lowest IREs (and also to see what is the contrast ratio without the help of the auto iris system).

Nick

That's not exactly what I meant. I mean that the range of close-ness and open-ness is not fully reached when the iris is set to either On or Off, but only when set to auto.

"but I do not see any signs of bluming adjusting either."

Blooming does not occur on fixed-pixel projectors, so you don't have to hold back on contrast level for that; white crushing and grayscale is another matter.

Originally posted by TheFerret
That's not exactly what I meant. I mean that the range of close-ness and open-ness is not fully reached when the iris is set to either On or Off, but only when set to auto.

TheFerret,

As far as I know When Iris is set to Off it is fully open (as if the pj had no iris at all) and same applies for when it is set to On (it sets iris to its smallest setting ref. light output).
In a European Sony product training about HS50/51 they said that, so it might be the case.

Nick

Originally posted by noah katz
"but I do not see any signs of bluming adjusting either."

Blooming does not occur on fixed-pixel projectors, so you don't have to hold back on contrast level for that; white crushing and grayscale is another matter.

That is correct.

Nick

Well, i new something was wrong!
Since my first Smart3 calibration i had a feeling that something was not correct. You see i have used smart previously for vw10ht, 11ht, 12ht and now for hs50 so i have a little experience.
It was the first time ever smart recomended to decrease the primary color (red). That made me wonder and decide to re run the calibration process with lamp at HIGH (thought the extra lumens would help the lightmeter provided with Smart3).
Boy was i correct !!

So after the end of the new calibration, results were more reasonable this time (in terms of color balance at d65 and contrast setting) and the final contrast ratio IMPROVED more !

Lets get to numbers then...

My initial Low settings (gain, bias) werefor R,G,B: 128, 33,39 and bias 111,128,126.
After the calibration for D65 i ended up with (same sequense):
128,60,62 and bias 108,128,114.

Now about contrast ratio:

After calibration BUT with Brightness and Contrast at factory defaults (50 and 80) contrast with HIGH lamp was at 4.267 and with the lamp at LOW at 4.020.

When i calibrated B and C using AVIA for B and smart3 for C (here i have to note that now the correct contrast was at 90) the contrast ratio was for HIGH lamp = 4.929 and for LOW lamp mode = 6.752 !!!!!!

Sorry for the initial wrong figures but it seems that the Smart3 tool needs a more sensitive lightmeter to give correct results at all IRE levels if you use the Low lamp setting.

Nick

Originally posted by TheFerret
That's not exactly what I meant. I mean that the range of close-ness and open-ness is not fully reached when the iris is set to either On or Off, but only when set to auto.

TheFerret you are correct (i am not).
Just asked my friend who attended the Sony Europe meeting for the HS50/51 and he confirmed what you have said.
Only in the Auto setting the iris closes fully or opens fully not the opposite as i thought.

Nick

As Darth would say: "Impressive, most impressive..."

Brian

I wouldn't image most relatively inexpensive meters to show their weaknesses at lower IRE. Is the measuring device any better in Colorfacts (I imagine so). I suppose the tolerance of the device at low-IRE can produce CR figures that can vary wildly. For instance, a difference between accurately measuring to 0.1 vs measuring to 0.01 is yield a 5-10 fold difference in CR due to low-IRE readings.

Originally posted by nb2121
Well, i new something was wrong!
Since my first Smart3 calibration i had a feeling that something was not correct. You see i have used smart previously for vw10ht, 11ht, 12ht and now for hs50 so i have a little experience.
It was the first time ever smart recomended to decrease the primary color (red). That made me wonder and decide to re run the calibration process with lamp at HIGH (thought the extra lumens would help the lightmeter provided with Smart3).
Boy was i correct !!

So after the end of the new calibration, results were more reasonable this time (in terms of color balance at d65 and contrast setting) and the final contrast ratio IMPROVED more !

Lets get to numbers then...

My initial Low settings (gain, bias) werefor R,G,B: 128, 33,39 and bias 111,128,126.
After the calibration for D65 i ended up with (same sequense):
128,60,62 and bias 108,128,114.

Now about contrast ratio:

After calibration BUT with Brightness and Contrast at factory defaults (50 and 80) contrast with HIGH lamp was at 4.267 and with the lamp at LOW at 4.020.

When i calibrated B and C using AVIA for B and smart3 for C (here i have to note that now the correct contrast was at 90) the contrast ratio was for HIGH lamp = 4.929 and for LOW lamp mode = 6.752 !!!!!!

Sorry for the initial wrong figures but it seems that the Smart3 tool needs a more sensitive lightmeter to give correct results at all IRE levels if you use the Low lamp setting.

Nick

Nick,
Thanks for the info so far. I initially tried your setting on my unit and found them okay but way too green. The new settings are much better. I am just tweaking as best I can until my bulb burns in and I can rent Colorfacts.

I need to ask one question though. I am fairly new to Sony's Service and Factory Menus. Where are the Bias controls located. I am using the Gain controls in the Service menu but I do not have Bias controls there. When entering the Factory menu, I am having trouble finding what I need to adjust. Any help is appreciated.

"Only in the Auto setting the iris closes fully or opens fully not the opposite as i thought."

Really? I thought part of the brightness problem was that with Autoiris on, the iris didn't open fully. So that was incorrect?

With the iris On it closes down. With the iris Off is opens. So, with the iris On and closed down I would imagine it would greatly impact the maximum lumen output, no?

Nick,
I would still like to know about the Factory/Service Menu values but I did find a work around. I basically translated your settings into +/- values and used the Bias/Gain settings in the User Menu. I also used the RCP and worked a good bit with the colors using Avia and DVE. Things are getting much better. Not perfect but better.

Originally posted by nb2121
Sorry for the initial wrong figures but it seems that the Smart3 tool needs a more sensitive lightmeter to give correct results at all IRE levels if you use the Low lamp setting. It sounds like you may want to put the lightmeter closer to the projector. Are you measuring from near the screen (or off the screen)?

--Darin

Originally posted by TheFerret
I wouldn't image most relatively inexpensive meters to show their weaknesses at lower IRE. Is the measuring device any better in Colorfacts (I imagine so). I suppose the tolerance of the device at low-IRE can produce CR figures that can vary wildly. For instance, a difference between accurately measuring to 0.1 vs measuring to 0.01 is yield a 5-10 fold difference in CR due to low-IRE readings.

In High lamp mode it managed to measure 0,05 lux at IRE 0, so i guess it is OK for accurate measurements.

Nick

Originally posted by awtryau89
Nick,
Thanks for the info so far. I initially tried your setting on my unit and found them okay but way too green. The new settings are much better. I am just tweaking as best I can until my bulb burns in and I can rent Colorfacts.

I need to ask one question though. I am fairly new to Sony's Service and Factory Menus. Where are the Bias controls located. I am using the Gain controls in the Service menu but I do not have Bias controls there. When entering the Factory menu, I am having trouble finding what I need to adjust. Any help is appreciated.

If you use your remote arrow keys (up or down) when you have in your screen the Gain numbers, you will see that when you scroll up or down and pass the last gain number (i.e. Blue) then the numbers change to those of the bias settings.

Nick

Originally posted by TheFerret
With the iris On it closes down. With the iris Off is opens. So, with the iris On and closed down I would imagine it would greatly impact the maximum lumen output, no?

TheFerret,

If you chose a very dark scene (while in Auto Iris setting) and you pause your dvdp and then switch from auto to ON setting, you see a quite big difference in lumens in favor of the ON setting !!
So that should tell us that the ON setting is closing the iris that much as the Auto one.

Nick

Originally posted by darinp2
It sounds like you may want to put the lightmeter closer to the projector. Are you measuring from near the screen (or off the screen)?

--Darin

Darin,

Initially i have placed the lightmeter at the same spot where i used to place it when calibrating my 12HT. But since 12ht was brighter it makes sense that either i should move it close (if using the Low lamp mode) or leave it there and select the High lamp mode (which i did the second time).

Nick

Nick, I am not sure if we are in complete agreement, or that you are trying to tell me something new. If you throw up a 0-IRE full-field test pattern with the iris=auto and then switch the iris=On does your lux measurement record lower or hogher lux reading?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Nick, I am not sure if we are in complete agreement, or that you are trying to tell me something new. If you throw up a 0-IRE full-field test pattern with the iris=auto and then switch the iris=On does your lux measurement record lower or hogher lux reading?

I have not tested this, BUT what i have tried is that i picked a very dark scene of a movie (Star Wars IV) where i paused the dvdp and switched back and forth from auto iris to iris on.
What i observed is that when i turned the iris from auto to on ther image became ... brighter ! So i speculate (other than what my friend from Sony told me) that iris on is a setting where the iris is NOT fully closed.
The dimmer image (and thus better blacks) is being provided by the Auto setting in the iris.
Well, at list this is what my eyes tell me.
But i will check with the lightmeter for IRE 0 and let you know the results.

Nick

Actually, it is much dimmer to my eyes with Iris to On versus Iris to Auto. Auto is the best setting per my eyes. Iris Off is brightest with Auto being a happy medium and apparently variable somewhere from Off to On based on the scene.

Brian

Brian, this is with a 0-IRE full-field test pattern?

Originally posted by usabrian
Actually, it is much dimmer to my eyes with Iris to On versus Iris to Auto. Auto is the best setting per my eyes. Iris Off is brightest with Auto being a happy medium and apparently variable somewhere from Off to On based on the scene.

Brian

Ok, i will check again and let you know.

Nick

Just finished a measurement from IRE 0 to IRE 100 using calibrated color temp from Smart3 and switching between Auto Iris and Iris ON.

Well i was correct!

Following are the results in Lux:

AUTO IRIS IRIS ON
IRE 0 0,08 0,21
IRE 10 0,09 0,23
IRE 20 0,89 1,60
IRE 30 7,44 6,54
IRE 40 21,6 16,7
IRE 50 45,3 30,5
IRE 60 92,6 56,5
IRE 70 150,7 84,8
IRE 80 208 121
IRE 90 299 163
IRE 100 376 210


It seems that my eyes were telling me the truth!
Auto iris offers less lumes on lower IREs and (obviously) more lumens in high IREs. So contrast ratio is optimum with iris at auto.

Nick

According to those figures the iris needs to be in auto for the widest range (0.08 to 376), and the iris being in the On setting is more limited (0.21 to 210).

nb2121

Great info!
IRIS-ON = CR 1,000:1
IRIS-AUTO = CR 4,700:1

What is the 0 IRE and 100 IRE IRIS-OFF numbers?

Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
nb2121

Great info!
IRIS-ON = CR 1,000:1
IRIS-AUTO = CR 4,700:1

What is the 0 IRE and 100 IRE IRIS-OFF numbers?



Sorry, don't have them yet, but it is one of the things i am planning to do next (along with posting some photos after smart3 calibration).

PS. The CR is actually higher (see my previous post) but i have to wait a bit longer at IRE 0 for the lightmeter to settle which at this last measurements did not have the time. From previous measurements it would propably settle at 0,07 lux.


Nick

nb2121 -> I was rummaging through the manual and it seems that middle is the neutral setting while low is supposed to induce a red tint. Have you tried using the middle setting as the base for calibration? I'm not sure there will be a difference, but it is something of interest.

Okay, I will add a few more tweaks I have found.

I initially said I set my sharpness to 35 but tonight I tried it a different way. When setting sharpness you cannot really see any difference while running up and down the scale. I tried a different approach. I set User 1 with sharpness to 0 and user 2 with sharpness to 35 (what I thought was originally best). All other controls were exactly the same. When switching back and forth quickly using the resolution charts on DVE you can really see the difference. The ringing appears immediately at 35 and show the higher resolution portions of the screen as washed out. Try this and see if you can get the same results but I now know sharpness need to be turned off.

Second, I really do like Nicks settings. Once again I will say I know they are not perfect for my setup but they get me much closer. I was really having a problem with the image being to washed out with green though and it was also just too dim for my tastes. I really do not know how all the controls interact but I found tonight that Nick's contrast setting is just too high. I really zeroed in by using the gray scale ramps and with the contrast set at 90 I was just seeing too much color shift. I brought the contrast down to 75 and this gives me the best results. In the ramps it looks a bit too red but somehow it helps the overall green saturation when going back to live video. Also this made me need to raise the brightness from 58 to 65. This give me a good bit more punch to the image in colors and overall light output. Somehow I really think this calms the iris down a bit too. I am wondering if the iris function is somehow tied to the overall contrast/brightness settings in the menu.

Hello!

I have seen 3 HS50 so far. I owned 4 DLPs in the last 5 yrs. All 3 HS50 I have played with had the same strange problems:

1. Shading: On a completely white picture the left side of the screen had a very clearly visible tendency to go into blue whereas the right side had a tendency to red. This was the case on all 3 units.

2. The convergence was not very good on all 3 units when using a test pattern with 1:1 mapping via VGA. There was a pixel shift of >1 pixel, especially on the edges. Is this normal for a LCD, because with DLP pixel mapping was perfect (of course).

3. This is the strangest problem I dicovered on all 3 units (and these 3 units came from different vendors): The upper right quadrant, especially in the area of the corner of the screen the image was "unstable". That is, if you went approximately 1m near the screen you could see the image shiver/vibrate a little bit. E.g. the text on windows decktop in this area was quickly moving up/ down/ left/ right a couple of millimeters. I have never seen this strange phenomenon on any projector... and it is not coused by the heat exhaust.

As these 3 problems occured on all 3 units I have seen on 3 different places, I asume it is not a defect but a HS50 specific problem on all current units (but maybe not on the HS51?). Any ideas, especially concerning point 3 and any tweaks for this. Is there a solution to minimize shading and optimize convergence?

Burnz.

Eric (awtryau89), you do realize that even with Nick's setting the red-removal/green-push condition is alleviated with a proper color correcting filter such that it allows you to dramatically reduce red (in the projector) and not begin to starve the image of green and blue.

Its interesting that you observed the ringing when sharpness is in use. Was black mode engaged or turned off? If engaged, what preset? I think WSR stated that a contrast around 80 should be fine, instead of anything higher.

Burnz, fyi, I do not see any of the items you described.

Brian

Burnz, when did you audition these three troublesome units? Were these units new arrivals (within the last 10-14 days)? Item #1 sounds like a diachroic splitter problem (or polarizer). Item #2 was reported in-similar condition with another European HS50 owner. Item #3 sounds like a video transport issue or power supply stability problem. Have you noticed this behavior on other transports (Component, HDMI or whatever the EC uses)?

Don't forget that even after calibration, Smart3 recomended a CC40R (color correction 40 red) filter. From my past experience with smart and cc filtering, after this recomendation from smart3, i must apply a cc40r filter and recalibrate to assure proper color balance (with the filter this time) based on my initial calibration results.
I am waiting from www.enhancedht.com to release CC filters dedicated for HS50/51 lens to try it.

Nick

Dedicated filters designed per projector? I can see using industry-standard filters, but I would really like to see how custom a filter can be for a projector. Does this mean the days of color-shifting lamps as the lamps age is completely over and solved for?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Eric (awtryau89), you do realize that even with Nick's setting the red-removal/green-push condition is alleviated with a proper color correcting filter such that it allows you to dramatically reduce red (in the projector) and not begin to starve the image of green and blue.

Its interesting that you observed the ringing when sharpness is in use. Was black mode engaged or turned off? If engaged, what preset? I think WSR stated that a contrast around 80 should be fine, instead of anything higher.

Yes I do realize I would need a color filter, but I am still trying anyway.

With Sharpness, black mode was off.

I also trust what WSR said but when working back and forth with Contrast and Brightness, this is what I come up with as accpetable in my setup.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Dedicated filters designed per projector? I can see using industry-standard filters, but I would really like to see how custom a filter can be for a projector. Does this mean the days of color-shifting lamps as the lamps age is completely over and solved for?
Specifically made to fit/attach to the HS51's lens.

Ah, ok. I am curious about exterior hushbox filters, both CC and ND. This may afford me to use sheets instead of threaded barrel type filters.

Tekara

Well, I finally got one good weekend to play with my new hs51. I'm projecting on a 90" dalite insta theater screen which is rated at 2.2 gain.

I believe the Dalite InstaTheater is a retroreflective screen, so would I be correct in saying your projector is around eye level or lower to achieve the maximum gain out of this screen? Do you notice any hotspotting?

I am very pleased with the image. I am very impressed with the image during dark scenes of movies. I think I'll be watching movies for the next week

I guess you like the black levels!:) How are the room conditions, what are the colours of the walls, ceiling, furnishings and floor, do these appear to play a part in the quality of the image. Assuming 500 lumens from the HS51, on a 2.2 gain 90" screen, equates to about 42 lamberts in bright scenes, that's direct view CRT territory. Does this at times appear too bright and is the image washed out or is the contrast maintained.

This appears to be quite a nice cost effective combination till 1920x1080 becomes affordable!

Hope you have many hours of entertainment with your new TechToy!


Thanks Much!

TheFerret,

all 3 units were tested within the last 2 weeks and were retail units in home cinema stores in Germany.
The item #3 ("instability in the right upper quadrant) is independent of the source, you can even see it with no source connected when the screen is blue...

I thought item #1 is the so called shading... it was very obvious in all 3 units

Are there any owners of a HS51/50 having convergence problems?

I have a feeling that the quality of the Europe models (HS50) is somewhat worse than the HS51. However, neither of the 3 seen units were to dim to my taste.

Burnz.

Highjinx, with a viewing angle of 45* I do not believe that the wide-power screen is retroflective. I have not noticed any hot spotting. My room condition is the absolute worst. Since I am an apartment dweller, the high gain portable screen felt like a match made in heaven and it's proved to be true. My walls and ceiling are white and the light is not as controlable as I would like. My one saving grace right now is that living in the high nortwest it is currently dark by 5:00. I intend to work up some blackout cloth curtains in the next month or so.

The image does appear a little more washed out than I would like in dark scenes. The black level control on the HS50 remedies this perfectly but it does start crushing blacks so I've been debating on wether or not I want to use it.

Using DVE the settings I am currently using are
Contrast: max (can't crush whites)
Brightness: 60 (keep changing from 55-65 undecided on which looks best)
color, hue and tint all default
sharpness: min
black level and gamma turned off
color temperature: middle (I am still playing with this setting)
iris: auto
lamp: low

Burnz, sounds like a problem with the inventory reaching your area.

Tekra.....thanks, you are correct, the widepower is angularly reflective. Would you say the washing out of the dark scenes is room related?

Can HS50/51 owners do a quick check on your units and verify if you see the same LCD panel alignment problems that is described in the thread below (and perhaps reply with your results).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=487169

I would definately say that the white walls and ceiling are causing some of the troubles, I particularly need to get some cloth to cover the ceiling. If anything at least the first couple of feet in front of the screen.

I've been playing around with the black levels setting and so far I like the effect it has on the picture. By turning the brightness up to compensate for the black level setting the image loses the washed out look without any black crushing.

Right now I'm using same settings as before but with the black level setting at high and a brightness of 70 (DVE suggested 75). I've been watching Collateral and the it looks real good.

Originally posted by raysam
Can HS50/51 owners do a quick check on your units and verify if you see the same LCD panel alignment problems that is described in the thread below (and perhaps reply with your results).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=487169

I have the same issue but it is one pixel wide for blue mostly and 1/2 for green. It can only be seen in the menu letters if you look very close (10-15 cm).
Will check with a friend at Sony if this is normal (perhaps for reduction of SDE) or it is a general issue that has to be resolved somehow.

Nick

I am waiting for Cine4home to post pictures of their HS50 to see how the three panels are mounted to the diachroic combiner block. I noticed that with the AE700 the panels appear to be simply snapped or clipped on, meaning not really anything of precision.

I am running into an odd issue when trying to adjust picture settings when feeding my HS51 through HDMI input from my HTPC...when I begin to make adjustments, my HTPC starts the shut down sequence and turns off! Has anyone else experienced this problem? I have watched several movies while feeding the projector with the HTPC without any problem (except for the known 'cropping' issue of the picture edges)...Also, I am able to adjust settings without any problem when feeding the projector from my DVD player via component.

I cannot imagine any display would be the culprit in this kind of problem. What software are you using for these adjustment, or are you talking about adjustments via the HS51 remote?

Adjustments via the HS51 remote. It is very odd...it only occurs when I attempt to access the picture adjustment menu. When I use the other remote functions (eg toggle between cinema, standard, dynamic mode or press the menu button) there is no problem.

Originally posted by Bchav
I am running into an odd issue when trying to adjust picture settings when feeding my HS51 through HDMI input from my HTPC...when I begin to make adjustments, my HTPC starts the shut down sequence and turns off! Has anyone else experienced this problem? I have watched several movies while feeding the projector with the HTPC without any problem (except for the known 'cropping' issue of the picture edges)...Also, I am able to adjust settings without any problem when feeding the projector from my DVD player via component.

Are you using a LiteOn Airboard IR Keyboard. I had one hooked up and my PC shutdown everytime I went into the Sony's Menu items.

Mike

yes I sure do...maybe the shutdown command on the keyboard is the same as a command being transmitted by the sony remote when accessing the picture adjustment menu.

You know, Brian made a note about how the Sony remote kept turning on his lights in the room because they were IR-based switches. Now that's funny!

I got my hands on a camera so I took a few pictures of collateral since it was still in the DVD player. Camera is a Sony DSC-V1 and these were taking around 2:30 ish so there's plenty of ambient light.

I'm not allowed to post urls yet so here's the cut and paste information.

www DOT webpages DOT uidaho DOT edu/~grav3305/waf/HT/

some notes:
pixel_infocus is the convergence check raysam asked about, it's a lot more clear in person. it's not 100% perfect, but it doesn't look bad.

the outfocus is a file glitch. don't bother with it.

outoffocus is if the projecter is a hair out of focus and I do mean a hair, it seems to smear only the green color. I am using the lens shift, so this is probably the cause, but it is odd that the red and blue is fine, it's just the green that is smeared.

Then there's a bunch of shots from collateral, nothing else I can really say about them.

I'll try and take some more pictures tonight when the ambient light is not quite as bad.

You need to set the exposure much longer otherwise they are too dark. Try a nightime setting on your camera or manually adjust exposure longer.

Brian

thanks Brian, I will see If I can learn enough about the camera I am borrowing to take some better photos.

Tekara

You appear to have a two stuck on subpixels, around about the middle right of each frame. One red and the other blue. Hope the dealer gives you a swap ASAP!

It's smack between the guys in this shot......maximise the picture.

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~grav3305/waf/HT/COLLAT~3.JPG

Actually, I think he using the first pattern I posted and not the second one. My first posted pattern was unintentionally 2x2 and not 1x1.

Alright, I have a new set of photo's worked up.

In my first pixel photo's I did use the first background worked up by TheFerret, I got the second one and I am getting the same problem others have described. What a bummer. . .

I couldn't get any good photo's of it, but since others have posted what it looks like, my posting really isn't all that needed.

The stuck subpixels where induced by the camera, I'm not really sure what was up with them since they don't show up anymore.

Uhm. . . Here's some new photo's from spiderman2, there's three different scenes with 4 different presets. I think I'm getting a little better at taking photo's; these ones don't seem too bad, there's a hint of blur induced by the wobble of my improvised "tripod."

cinema - default cinema setting on the HS51, nothing adjusted. brightness 50 contrast 80

Middle - using the middle color tempurature setting with the brightness at 70, contrast maxed and black level on high.

Nick - using the color settings that nick posted. same B/C/BL as middle

Mine - the setting I am currently playing with which is basically Nick's setting with the blue gain increased to 92. same B/C/BL as middle

linky:
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~grav3305/waf/hs51/gallery

I'm slowly getting the full sized pictures up, I'm on dail up so give it a little time:

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~grav3305/waf/hs51/

Tekara,

Perhaps you have already seen Kranes screen shots here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=477183&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

Would be interesting to see if your HS51+InstaTheater could produce similar results, can't see why not.

Have you played around with RCP yet!

Have fun with your tweeking! Look forward to more of your screenies!

I installed the DVDO Iscan HD+ last night. I have my Sony 777ES dvd changer going into the HD+ via component (interlaced) and my Sony HD200 STB going in via dvi-d. I'm outputting at 1080i into the HS51. I must say that I am more than pleased with the results. Tuesday night I watched Return of the Jedi without the HD+ and while I was happy overall, I felt that picture appeared kind of "digital" (especially edges) and fast motion scenes could have been smoother. The HD+ really improved both of those niggles. I'm 98% satisfied now :). I have a few questions about the HD+ which I'll post in the processor forum.

Well Krane and I are using different cameras, so there will be a fair bit of difference in the colors and white balance in our pictures. The last batch I did definately show why white walls are not a good thing though in reality the room was not that bright. Nevertheless I am very pleased with the performance of the projector, I feel it looks a lot better in person. I have not played wit the RCP settings yet, once I am satisfied with everything else, I will probably start messing with it.

If your computer monitor is calibrated to 6500K and you have necessary software, I would suggest the following for screen captures that take in more than what is on the screen. Because the human eye is a much more capable device than any artificial eye or camera can be, I would make a copy of the capture, exposing once for the screen, and exposing a second time for what's off the screen. Then make a cut & paste composite.

With the computer monitor calibrated, each exposure compensated to meet what you seen in reality, etc. and the composite made, a more accurate representation of what is going on can be provided. In time, I wish to do this for what projected content is on the screen, while also compositing other areas of the screen with no content in it, but documenting the illumination of unused portions of a projector's panels.

Does anyone know which color temperature setting is closest to 6500K?

"Low" looked a little brown, much like 5400K on my desktop monitors. "High" looked pretty blue, so I'm guessing that it's above 6500.

I did my testing with Color Temp set at Medium, and it looked pretty good, but I wanted to find out if anyone knows for sure.

Hey Guys, check out this IMX lens tweak (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4894428#post4894428) for the HS51. Anyone seeing SDE at their normal seating position may want to place and order.

"Low" looked a little brown, much like 5400K on my desktop monitors. "High" looked pretty blue, so I'm guessing that it's above 6500.

I am apt to agree with your opinions on this. I currently use the middle settings as the low looks to red out of the box. It could just need adjustment or a filter though.

Brian

After agonizing over the colors on this PJ I have set everything back to factory setting (color temp wise) and I am also using Middle. Man I cannot wait to get colorfacts on this thing. Once you have lived with a properly calibrated PJ, you just cannot go back!

Well by design low is supposed to have a red tint and high a blue tint with middle being the neutral setting. I'm going to probably stick with the middle setting for a while as well.

Well, the auto Iris for sure tweaks the reds. When calibrating colors I found that the auto iris seems to crush reds. In avia, the 100% over 75% color bars show this perfectly (DVE users can look at the 4 gray shade pluge with the red filter). If you turn the iris on or off the crushing goes away, but with it on the red is immediately crushed.

I turned the red down from the middle settings 128 to 92 and this seems to have resolved the problem. It will be a bit before I can decide on how much of an effect this has on the overall picture quality.

I just got my HS51, and I am very impressed overall. I really don't understand how the RCP feature works, however. I am trying to tone down the yellows ... they seem too bright (almost florescent at times).
I am usually seeing this through a D* hi def receiver which is feeding the HS51 via a DVI to HDMI cable.

I have played around with the RCP, trying different ways to make the color pie shift around, get smaller, etc. Has anyone had any success using this feature? What is the best way to use this specifically? I only have the AVIA dvd for calibration (along with the 3 color filters), so if you know how to help me get rid of the excessive (to my eyes) yellow, I would appreciate it.

Friar

my salesman gave me a 1 minute wrap up on RCP - basically colors mean different things to different people. so RCP let you decide what should the primary colors, then the secondary colors look like. So my guess is first to tweak primary colors to Avia, next find real video to verify and fine tune to make it look 'right' to you yourself; then repeat process with secondaries

Friar, what modes are the iris, lamp, etc. in?

I haven't read through all of the posts in this thread, are there any recommended settings that should be changed right away for a basic tweak?

At first glance, I'm very happy with the contrast but disappointed with the color settings as well as the loss in resolution when comparing it to the HS20.

Thanks...RN

I've been reading both of the major threads on the HS51, and for the most part people seem to have a slight red push.

From my own experience, and using a htpc via vga as the source, there is a slight red push at least on my setup using a Da-Lite VideoSpectra with white walls.

For the most part I've left all the settings at a default, I've played around with red gain and bias a little and rcp, but I don't have any tools, so its just my eyeball :P

OK I can now confirm that Sony has NOT fixed the DTC-100 problem on the HS51.

Anyone else have this double image in DTC-100 HD problem?

Phil, I do not have a DTC-100 (nor an HS51 yet for that matter), but I should be able to arrange this next week. Does this occur when using 1080 HDTV only, or with the 540P upconverted SDTV?

Hello all,

I just got my HS51 up and running. It was a long 3 month wait from when I ordered it.

This is my first projector and I am very impressed with the HS51. I have watched a couple of dvd's and the USC/Oklahoma game last night. All I have done is turn the lamp to low and have flipped from dynamic to cinema depending on the source. I have Video Essentials but have yet to use it and have not gotten into the image director as well.

I also have the new Sony 975 DVD player and like it as well, just using component until I order a long HDMI cable.

I am projecting onto a 4x8 Do-Able board painted with Behr SilverScreen paint. I have to say it looks very good. The viewing agle is virtually 180 degrees. My goal is to be able to hold off on a "real" screen until the Sony Black is avaiable.

Anyway, I love the projector and I want to thank everyone for all of the information that I have used in making my first projector purchase.

Brian

Ferret:

I Only see the double image on the HD channels. Others are fine.

You can choose the computer setting and the double image goes away, but then you have an Anamorphic image with no option to stretch into full mode.

So maybe I just keep the DTC-100 with the KL9000W I was using before the HS51 and buy another Direcvtv HD receiver that supports Component or HDMI.

Originally posted by awtryau89
Nick,
I would still like to know about the Factory/Service Menu values but I did find a work around. I basically translated your settings into +/- values and used the Bias/Gain settings in the User Menu. I also used the RCP and worked a good bit with the colors using Avia and DVE. Things are getting much better. Not perfect but better.


Dear All

if i had HS50, May i install HS51 application software:confused:
Using the specified controller,"ImageDirector". Adjustable Gamma correction or others.

i want to test Factory Menu value,too. Is it dangerous?:D

Well the only software to install is the image director software which requires a connection to the projector via USB. . . If there is no USB connector on the HS50, then there is nothing you can do.

Hey Phil, that is pretty unusual. I am not familiar with the DTC-100/1080i problem on Sony projectors of which you refer to. Can you PM me on this historic issue that has evidentally plagued other generation of Sony projectors?

I may be able to borrow someone's DTC-100 to try with HS in-route HS51. I will be personally using my own Samsung SIR-TS160, though, as the long-term source for HD (unless D* wants to sell me an HD TiVo really cheap). :)

OK, I need major help! I have my X-box going through the VGA adaptor, I have setup in the dash 480P, 720P, and 1080i!

When I send the signal through Input A on the sony configured for Computer or auto. The sony only sees it as a 640 X 480 signal??? it smooches my 16X9 games into a 4X3 frame. If I set to Video GBR it works fine, but the crappy sonys internal proccessing takes over, crushing blacks, and adding the artifical shapness that makes edges crappy!


I want just the pure signal through computer mode! waaaaaaaa!

Also has any one found out how to turn off the internal video proccessing? So that the sony can just pass the signal?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Friar, what modes are the iris, lamp, etc. in?

Iris=auto
Lamp=low
color temp=middle
black=off
gamma=off
rcp=off
contrast = 72
brightness= 55
sharpness = 30
color saturation and hue are 48 and 46 (per avia)

I've ordered a 110" firehawk, which is supposed to get here next week. In the interim, I'm projecting on a white sheet that is tacked up to a tan wall. I'm now thinking that this mickey-mouse temporary screen setup may be part of the problem, but all the other colors seem to be normal. Any thoughts on using the RCP or other adjustments to get the yellow toned down a bit?

Also, is there a better calibration disk available than the avia one for LCD projectors? It seems that it was devised for crt issues, and adjusting the contrast control on the lcd projector have minimal effect on the avia calibration screens for contrast (white) levels. Is the DVE disk better for lcd, or are there other options?

Thanks,
Friar

Lose the sharpness. Actually, Create another Custom memory using all of these settings, but with Sharpness set to zero (0). Then do an A-B comparison. Not that this has anything to do with your excessive yellow, but can you see a reason for elevating the one variable (in the projector) that could introduce ringing?

What are you projecting onto right now? You may wish to try the DVE disk, but I have no experience with it. How about a PC where you could generate field-patterns using RGB?

Originally posted by Tekara
Well the only software to install is the image director software which requires a connection to the projector via USB. . . If there is no USB connector on the HS50, then there is nothing you can do.

Thank you for your respond.

Tekara

Do you know how to tune the factory setting ?

y_no_ho

friar:

The first thing to do is to make sure that no tan is bleeding through your sheet. You can't really tell just by looking at it. Remember that you are shining a powerful light at (through) your sheet. If you can, peek behind the sheet while the projector is on, if any of the image is bleeding through, the color of the wall will be affecting your image, and I would put your color concerns on hold until you get something white (or gray) to project on.

If you are still having problems after that, take a look at the gray steps and ramps on Avia or DVE. If you still see yellow, then the problem is with your white balance. If your gray scale looks good but the yellows still looks wrong in color, you should be able to dial in the yellow using the RCP (I don't have it, but that's what it is supposed to be for.)

But I wouldn't make a single color adjustment until you're sure you're projecting on something white or gray.

Pip

Originally posted by TheFerret
Lose the sharpness. Actually, Create another Custom memory using all of these settings, but with Sharpness set to zero (0). Then do an A-B comparison. Not that this has anything to do with your excessive yellow, but can you see a reason for elevating the one variable (in the projector) that could introduce ringing?

I used one of the avia test patterns for resolution and noticed that there was a difference in crispness between tight black/white lines. The pattern looked a bit blurred when at 0, but got crisper/sharper once I hit about 30.


What are you projecting onto right now? You may wish to try the DVE disk, but I have no experience with it. How about a PC where you could generate field-patterns using RGB?

I am projecting onto a sheet right now (see above post). What would be the benefit between generating RGB field patterns via computer, and using a dvd with the same color patterns coming from my DVD player with an HDMI-HDMI connection?

The benefit would be that you could get an idea of the yello you are looking for by varying the color to numerical values.

Okay guys, I just ordered Colorfacts. It should be here sometime next week. I hope to be able to do numerous calibrations on my HS51. I plan on calibrating it with the Iris off and see what I get. Then calibrated it with the Iris on Auto and see how much things change. I also hope to do separate SD and HD colorspace calibrations. I hope to be able to give some good tweak settings as well. If Byte comes through on the service manual and the different parameter definitions, who knows what I will be able to come up with. Of course all this will be subject to my PJ on my Carada BW 110" screen, using my Pioneer Elite 59Avi DVD and my Hughes set top box. I cannot promise these will work for anyone else. I know that I tried Nick's settings and also Minge's settings and they were absolutely awful for my PJ. Nothing close to being at all natural. For all you Atlanta area members, feel free to contact me and maybe you can swing by and see how I am calibrating and what a correctly calibrated HS51 looks like.

I wouldn't calibrate with the iris to on or off, there seems to be a red push induced by the auto setting. If you don't use the auto setting you won't compensate for this push.

Originally posted by Tekara
I wouldn't calibrate with the iris to on or off, there seems to be a red push induced by the auto setting. If you don't use the auto setting you won't compensate for this push.

You see, I disagree here. The red push comes from having the reds jacked up too far to compensate for their loss at the higher IREs. I think a filter will be more applicable. Also, you have to keep in mind the dynamic video adjusting that is going on while the Iris is set to Auto. If this is truly linear as it is supposed to be, a calibration with the Iris off will be just as effective as one with it on auto. I plan on doing a good bit of tweaking so we will know for sure and have definitive answers to all our theories.

I agree. Clamp the iris to a static condition, color correct by filtration as well as set brightness and contrast, and then see what happens with the iris set to auto. If the iris isn't opening to maximum in ON or OFF position then this needs to be taken into account and may call for a second brightness and contrast round with iris on auto.

Can't wait to see how this turns out, Eric. Using the Custom memories should provide for some interesting A-B comparisons.

Yes, please do keep us all in the loop on your findings. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that the auto iris causing the reds te be crushed. This goes away if you set the iris on or off. So I would love to see if a filter would correct this.

Is it possible to do a factory reset on HS50/51?

Bosse

Originally posted by Pip
friar:

The first thing to do is to make sure that no tan is bleeding through your sheet. You can't really tell just by looking at it. Remember that you are shining a powerful light at (through) your sheet. If you can, peek behind the sheet while the projector is on, if any of the image is bleeding through, the color of the wall will be affecting your image, and I would put your color concerns on hold until you get something white (or gray) to project on.
........

Pip

Pip, last night I did take a peek behind the sheet. Man, was there ever a bunch of light coming through the sheet and on to the wall! Now I see that I could be getting alot of bounce-back light off the wall, which is probably changing the colors I see. I am going to wait until the screen gets here before I try any other adjustments. Thanks for the advice.
Friar

Go buy a black sheet and put it behind the layers of white sheets.

Hey guys, remember that forth-coming Sony BlackScreen (or whatever they are calling it)? Well, read this announcement from Sony (http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5516) and note near the end how the HS51 incorporates three proprietary LCD panels specific for this screen. Sounds like the ultimate HS51 enternal-tweak.

And finally, a price for it!

"The new screen will be available this spring for about $2,000"

No, Ferret, I did not read that. The closest I come to seeing a statement like that is this:

""This screen is optimized to provide outstanding picture performance from Sony's VPL-HS51 projector, enabling images and video to be delivered at their best.""

I don't see that it it saying that the HS51 is optimized for this screen, I do see that it says that the screen is optimized for the HS51. That's a big difference.

reaper

You are right. My over-enthusiasm has committed bad-tasting cookies. :( Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Is it possible to use an iScan HD+ and output 720p DVI into the HDMI port of the HS50/51 and not get the borders ?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Hey guys, remember that forth-coming Sony BlackScreen (or whatever they are calling it)? Well, read this announcement from Sony (http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5516) and note near the end how the HS51 incorporates three proprietary LCD panels specific for this screen. Sounds like the ultimate HS51 enternal-tweak.

From the article:
With an 80-inch screen size and ...

Kinda small, isn't it?

In relation to rear-projectors, yes, it's massive. Compared to a 106"x60" setup, it's a step backwards. Maybe they'll have larger versions someday (with an equally larger price).

I have to admit, having a black screen has a certain amount of "cool" factor to it...

Not everyone is hooked on big video drugs, sir BigScreen. If its 80" wide then that is what I am using now with my 7" CRT for a 92" diagonal. Now, if it is 80" diagonal then forget it as it would be too small.

And I wonder how this setup would be taken as an alternate solution. I do not know off hand what the largest Sony RPTV, but a HS51+Sony screen for $5500 list ain't too shabby for those typically buying premium 65" RPTV's costing the same (list-price comparison).

Originally posted by Bytehoven
May I suggest we keep the posts in the tweaking thread about tweaking and not a CES product review.

Maybe we could go back and delete all of the chit chat, and try to keep this thread specifically on message with HS-51 calibration tweaks.

I'll certainly delete this post, but I thought it might be a point worth making since it looks like the thread is getting filled up with alot of non-tweaking comments.

I agree.
Let's try and keep this thread on topic.

Argh, one new thing you will have to spend your money on... :P

So, has anyone started playing with the gamma controls? I presume anyone that has seriously jumped into this has already calibrated their HS51 to a satisfactory point.

Hey guys, I have a scenario for you relating to a source-display setup. I am helping someone else, but this will, in time, be just as applicable to my own situation, too.

Hughes HR10-250, otherwise known as an HD TiVo connected to the Sony VPL-HS51 projector. The HD TiVo is setup so that it knows the display is 16:9. Trying to determine how to handle the 4:3 material, though, as it comes across this source and into the projector. I though Normal and Zoom modes as the valid options, but Wide Mode seems to be locked out.

Now, I am not physically present at this individual's location, and I do not yet have either my HS51 or a HD TiVo, but I thought I might ask just in case someone else does have these two items. Problem is that there seems to be an inability to get into this portion of functionality on the projector.

The wide mode feature does not seem to work with 720p or 1080i material only 480i/480p. That is the feature can be used with 480i/p but when you change to 720p or 1080i the feature doesn't work. So I do not think that there is anything that can be done projector side as the projecter assumes that all 720p and 1080 material is widescreen. . . . which is logical.

The best place to look is to see if the Tivo unit has an auto pillarbox option available for 4:3 material.

Okay, this is good to know. I guess then for non-HD material carried on an HD channel, for nstance, this is still a locked-out feature because the projector is essentially seeing an HD channel and could care less about the content therein.

[The best place to look is to see if the Tivo unit has an auto pillarbox option available for 4:3 material. [/B][/QUOTE]

What is this and were would you find it?

Yes this is something that is typically set in the box. You should set the Tivo to either put bars on the side or zoom mode to fill the screen (people look slightly shorter and fatter). That is what I use and after a while you do not notice really.

Brian

I just got the vpl-hs51 for myself for christmas. The panels on it seem to misaligned or something. It looks like the green is high and to the right and the red is low and to the left. I dont think it looks normal. For 3500 bucks I think sony should check these things alittle better. Thankfully
i got it from crutchfield so its going back tommorrow for an exchange. Anyone else have this problem? Is there a service menu so i could tweak it? I shouldnt have to mess with it since it is brand new but im kinda worried that the second one will have the same problem. Is this a common problem for the hs51?

Anyone remember the panel misalighment early-on with the HS20? I am pretty sure that was the case (and not my imagination).

The HD Tivo when set to 720P or 1080i will send all channels in the chosen format. The HS51 does not allow for changing to zoom, wide zoom, etc. The only way to change the 4x3 material is via the Tivo remote. It is the upper left hand button. Pressing this button changes from 4x3 to full which makes everyone look short and fat. One option would be to set the Tivo to 480i or 480P when watching non HD broadcasts. This is a pain in the rump but does allow one to utilize the zoom features.

Hi guys,

Sorry if this question has been asked before (couldn't find it in a search).. is there a way to get my HTPC to output in 1080i so as to avoid the HDMI 720p issue?

I have a GeForce 6800GT 256mb - the highest resolution it seems to support is 1600x1200 (and in the tech specs it says "Max DVI resolution: 1600x1200"). Would I have to use powerstrip in order to get the 1080 res? Or is it just not possible with this card?

Also is there any downside in supplying the PJ with a resolution higher than it is designed to support? Will a 1920x1080 over HDMI image look identical to a 1280x720 over VGA image?


Thanks


Tom

Tom, if your operating system and video card will support, yes, you can use PowerStrip. Not only does it have a bunch of predefined resolutions, but you can create them as well.

I have a GeForce 6800GT 256mb - the highest resolution it seems to support is 1600x1200 (and in the tech specs it says "Max DVI resolution: 1600x1200"). Would I have to use powerstrip in order to get the 1080 res? Or is it just not possible with this card?

I have this card. There is something wrong as you should see 1920x1080 as a standard hdtv option in the menu system of the nvidia. No need for powerstrip at all.

Are you using clone or dual modes? Note it should detect your HS51 if you are going through hdmi.

Brian

Thanks guys - to be honest I haven't actually tried to set it to 1920x1080 yet; I just read the specs saying that was the maximum, and the (unrecognised by Nvidia) CRT I'm currently using only lets me move the slider up to 1600x1200

My HS50 just arrived, I am setting it up for the first time tonight :) So maybe if if the GeForce recognises the PJ, that will enable the higher resolutions on the slider.

This is why we often tell our computers we are using a high res monitor like the Sony WDM-900 so we can get higher resolutions.

Brian

Thanks Brian!

Just one final question - is there any downside of running a picture at 1920x1080i into the Sony HS50? I was assuming there must be some problem or trade-off doing this, else everyone with a HTPC would do it and far fewer people would care about the 720p problem?

Thanks again,


Tom

The downside is the scaler must convert it to 720p. Other than that...

Brian

Hey Brian,

I took a look at the 6800GT cards on NewEgg (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=property&DEPA=1) and they all say 2048x1536 as the maximum resolution. Weird.

Thanks Brian

How come you use 720p over VGA rather than 1080i over HDMI?

How come you use 720p over VGA rather than 1080i over HDMI?

As I mentioned above, because the scaler has to convert 1080i. 720p is pixel perfect and bypasses the scaler. Also, have you ever tried to read a desktop at 1080i?

Brian

Hey Everyone,

Just received my HS51 yesterday and noticed a couple of issues.

#1. In the opening battle scenes there were a lot of trails and static movement during fast motion sequences, and at points the picture was unidentifiable. It just seemed very choppy. Is this a cinema-graphic trick of the director or is it common for LCD units?

#2. There were halos or rings around people that were in front of light backgrounds.

#3. When there were scenes that panned across open desert etc. the picture appeared wavy, and almost made me dizzy whenever I saw it.

I had purchased an A/V set up disk from BB, I think its sound and vision, and it appeared that everything was set up correctly, but the issues above bothered me.

The source for the video is a "cheap" VHS DVD combo via component. Could the problem be in the DVD player? I am projecting onto a matte white wall.

I am a newbie, so please forgive any inadvertent stupidity.

You forgot to mention which movie these opening battles take place in!

A cheap dvd player could be the cause of lots of problems though.

Brian

Originally posted by DaveHe
Hey Everyone,

Just received my HS51 yesterday and noticed a couple of issues.

#1. In the opening battle scenes there were a lot of trails and static movement during fast motion sequences, and at points the picture was unidentifiable. It just seemed very choppy. Is this a cinema-graphic trick of the director or is it common for LCD units?



Probably not what you wanted to hear but I noticed something similar watching football. On the quick over the middle passes the image would blur and then refocus again. I thought this was only an issue with DLP so I was surprised to see it but on the other hand it wasn't as bad as I have seen an a DLP.

Hey Everyone,

Just received my HS51 yesterday and noticed a couple of issues.

#1. In the opening battle scenes there were a lot of trails and static movement during fast motion sequences, and at points the picture was unidentifiable. It just seemed very choppy. Is this a cinema-graphic trick of the director or is it common for LCD units?

#2. There were halos or rings around people that were in front of light backgrounds.

#3. When there were scenes that panned across open desert etc. the picture appeared wavy, and almost made me dizzy whenever I saw it.

I had purchased an A/V set up disk from BB, I think its sound and vision, and it appeared that everything was set up correctly, but the issues above bothered me.

The source for the video is a "cheap" VHS DVD combo via component. Could the problem be in the DVD player? I am projecting onto a matte white wall.

Two things jump out at me- your poor source(cheap DVD player) is a big drop in picture quality from a good player, and two, your matte white wall. If there's more than a coat or two of paint on the walls, the wall texture may have a lot to do with what you're seeing.

I played around some with the DIY screens when I first got into FP, but always found to many issues with texture & tint. You may be sensitive to this artifact, too. Take a good look at the wall.

Let me start by saying the movie with the motion artifacts was Gladiator.
The scene was in the first ten minutes of the movie.

I have since changed my source to my XBOX with Psyclone component cables, and I still get the same motion artifacts. Also, I am projecting onto drywall with one coat of primer (brand new house).

However, upon powering up the unit after work today to sit with the kids and watch Nemo, I was shocked to see some sort of striped patern of faded lines all across the screen. I wonder if I am seeing vertical banding for the first time. Here is a sample pic taken with a digital SLR from watching distance approx 11 ft.
Other than these issues the picture is fantastic, can anyone offer me some advice. Thanks in advance.

That seems too drastic to be VB, likely a power, source or cable issue. Otherwise, you would box it up and send it back...

Brian

I think the issue is with the xbox. It is the poor internal scaler. Turn off 480p from the xbox and let the projector do the scaling. HolyCow had this same issue with the Xbox and an AE700.

reaper

So, if I'm reading you guys right I should change the surge protector that the equipment is plugged into, and turn off the 480P on the XBOX. Can I still keep the 720P enabled for some of the games?

By the way I forgot to thank everyone who contributes to these threads, you guys have created a monster!!! Or, at least that's what my wife says.

DaveHe,

If it were me, I'd just tr the 480p switch first and skip everything else. It's an easy thing to change and undo if it doesn't fix the issue. Also, I would leave 720p and 1080i enabled and see if they cause the same issue when playing a game that supports these resolutions. If they do, turn them off too. But I'd keep them on until you prove it's an issue.

Of course, none of the switching may help and you could then turn ann resolutions back on and try some of the other suggestions.

reaper

Byte, exactly how high are you pushing the contrast? Above 80?

DaveHe, what DVD player were you using aside from the X-Box?

Quick question--can the VPL-HS50/1 be controlled via a rs-232 or usb port so I can integrate into a control system (crestron or other)? If so, are the commands availiable? Thanks!

There is no RS-232 port. And I believe only the HS51 has the USB (corrections forthcoming I am sure) port.

Wow that is really bad. I have seen it on the ps2, but never even close to that. My xbox never gives me problems at all.

Reaper, Ferret and USABrian,
I changed back to my other DVD player (Panasonic PV-D4743S) which is plugged into the same surge protector/outlet that the XBOX and HS51 are plugged into and the vertical bands went away. I tried Reaper's suggestion of turning off the 480P on the XBOX but the bands were still there. However they only appear during movies, not games. So I guess my question now is, could this be from the new cables I purchased (psyclone component) or is this an internal issue with the XBOX itself? I was hoping to use the XBOX as a kind of all-in-one unit until I can save up to get a Bravo D2 or similar unit. But it looks like my plans aren't going to work. I am glad that the issue was not with the projector. Later today I'll put my settings and some pics in the official thread.:cool:

zxlr8,

Could you tell me what cables etc your using with your XBOX?
Thanks.

Thanks Ferret,

So there is now way to control this unit other than IR?

DaveHe, I have an ae700, but I am using the xbox brand high definition kit. I am using high quality gold plated connector component cables from Radio Shack. Lol. It's the truth. For the ps2, I am using a lowere end cable. That might be part of the problem. Probably not though because I go through a switcher and I have a 25 foot component cable from monoprices.com that attaches to the projector. So that is a bout 30 feet of cable and o banding on xbox but some on ps2 in 480p. I still use 480p on the ps2 sometimes because it is hardly noticeable.

Originally posted by barhoram
So there is now way to control this unit other than IR?
Supposedly you can control the HS51 (not HS50) from the Ethernet port on the front, but good luck with that. I could never get my HS51 to connect to my router or my PC using this port. Packet sniffing software never showed any packets coming from the MAC address of the HS51. Someone else reported similar problems, and I don't think anyone has reported success connecting via this port. As far as I can tell, the USB port is only for setting custom gamma using the included software, but I did connect to it successfully.

Did you use the protocol manual for this?

The protocol manual is no help. It just says to connect the PJ to your router, power everything up, check the IP address in the PJ status, and away you go. The only problem is it doesn't work. The PJ never connects to my router and as far as I can tell never broadcasts any packets to even attempt it. Unless there is some trick to make it work, mine is non functional. Not a big deal to me since I was mostly just curious to see what it could do, but it could be to people who intend to control the PJ from a PC.

Hmm, someone managed to get it working. Remember those web page clippings someone posted a month or two back? That is from a browser on the Ethernet port, I think.

Anyway, i though I observed there is a preconfigured IP on the projector? I do think its using a potentially abnormal protocol in general, which could further complicate the scene, but this should be addressible.

The only way I would think that your router would communicate with the projector is if a) it either has a preconfigured private network address or will accept a DHCP config, b) the router is running DHCP and can configure a host for a network address the projector allows for, and c) is done using identical protocols.

While there is an Ethernet port, this by no means should suggest its using TCP/IP in the conventional sense.

Not sure if this will work but it expands on what Ferret is saying. Take a ethernet crossover cable and connect to the HS51. For this to work you will need to configure the network connection on your PC to be on the same IP subnet as the HS51. You may also need to mess with the speed settings since I don't know if the HS51 ethernet port is 10Mb, 100Mb, full or half duplex. Maybe if I can dig up a crossover cable I'll give it a try this weekend.

Just curious...Has anyone done a Colorfacts or SMART calibration yet. I know someone has done the SMART one but I didn't think they had done the filter.

Originally posted by DaveHe
Let me start by saying the movie with the motion artifacts was Gladiator.
The scene was in the first ten minutes of the movie.


The choppy or strobe motion in the beginning Gladiator battle scene is by design. IIRC it was filmed at a higher frame rate with no motion blur. I believe king Arthur was done the same way.

Has anyone bothered to play around with the settings in the Black Level Adjustment menu? I currently have it on High, which the manual states: "Gives higher emphasis to the black color". After calibrating Constrast in the Digital Video Essentials DVD I see no black crush, everything looks good.

Is Black Level Adjustment set to HIGH a big no-no?

I have Picture mode in cinema, contrast at 90, brightness at 55, color at 40, hue at default, sharpness at default. All settings calibrated via DVE DVD on a Da-Lite High Power 106" diagonal screen. Projector is table mounted and I'm using DVI a 1080i via OPPO DV971H.

Any recommendations? Still debating whether to get an IMX lens. I am noticing SDE more and more (viewing at 12.5' from screen).


S.Anderson

I understand calibration of the PJ for dvd content using Avia or Video Essentials, but how does one calibrate for say HD content from a satellite reciever ? Is there any method for this ?

I find that by using the black level on high and the brightness turned up that it removes a bit of the "wash out" effect on the screen. I too use it on high and aftor calibration, I don't have any black crushing either.

The black level does not appear to alter the IRE setup at all; when calibrated with black level set to high, there is still a distinction in the 0 IRE of the pillarboxing and the 7.5 IRE of the material when veiwing TV source.

Why not just neutrally filter the light and effectively lower the lumens coming off of the screen when black is needed?

I just received an HS-51 for a friend of mine and am anxiously waiting to start setting it up. I probably won't get started until this weekend. I have Colorfacts with the Eye-One spectroradiometer? and will be doing a full ISF setup after we get some hours on the projector. We will be running HDTV/TV from a Time Warner Cable box on the component input, and DVD via HDMI from a Denon 3910. After reading all the posts on this and the other HS-51 threads, I am really looking forward to firing this thing up. As soon as I start getting some results I will definitely share with everyone.

mintakaX:

You will need a High Definition video pattern generator such as the Accupel HDG-3000 in order to fully calibrate for any high definition sources.

Link:http://www.accupel.com/

Curious, is it impossibe to calibrate for high-definition using a PC?

Originally posted by AV-NUT-99
<snip>

mintakaX:

You will need a High Definition video pattern generator such as the Accupel HDG-3000 in order to fully calibrate for any high definition sources.

Link:http://www.accupel.com/


Is the Accupel system what ISF calibrators use, or is it Colorfacts? Which is more "professional", Accupel or Colorfacts? My reasoning is: why not just pay $300 for the in-home ISF calibration, rather than $1500 for accupel/colorfacts?

Any thoughts from the gallery?



S.Anderson

Is it possible to use the patterns generated by a DVDO HD+ to do the HD calibration ?

Originally posted by GScott
Not sure if this will work but it expands on what Ferret is saying. Take a ethernet crossover cable and connect to the HS51. For this to work you will need to configure the network connection on your PC to be on the same IP subnet as the HS51. You may also need to mess with the speed settings since I don't know if the HS51 ethernet port is 10Mb, 100Mb, full or half duplex. Maybe if I can dig up a crossover cable I'll give it a try this weekend.
I did everything you describe except mess with the speed settings, but I still never saw any packets from the PJ and could not ping the IP address displayed in the status. I wish you luck. If you figure out how to make it work let us all know.

Rieper,

Sorry about the delay on this response but I had some interruptions for my real job that I had to attend to.

Unfortunately, you need both. There are several other products that do this as well but I am most familiar with Sencor and Colorfacts products. The Colorfacts software, along with either the spectroradiometer or the trichormat-1 sensor is a system that allows you to measure the amount of red, green, and blue light that makes up a displayed picture. When you do a greyscale calibration you display the range of Grey from 0 IRE to 100 IRE and track the proper "white" level across the range based on the output of your color sensor. If you are calibrating for a DVD input, you can generate the proper test patterns from a test disk such as Avia or DVE. The Accupel, or similar device from Sencor can output test patterns at 480i, 480P, 720 P and 1080i. This probably does not make much difference for greyscale patterns, since you could pretty much transfer your results settings for the DVD input to the HD input and be quite close. If you are looking for the best possible picture for the HD input then you should calibrate with signals with HD quality on the HD input. If you are trying to find out how well your display handles HD resolutions, etc., then you definitely need an HD signal generator. Colorfacts will also allow you to generate the correct greyscale patterns but I have not tried using them with a PC and an HDTV capable video card.

And yes, for an end user you would probably be better off having an ISF tech calibrate you display for you.

mintakaX,

I am not familiar with the test patterns from the DVDO HD+. If it outputs the 0 - 100 IRE patterns, then you should be able to calibrate for proper greyscale. The big question concerns whether these patterns are traceable to a proper reference. The AVIA and DVE test disks, as well as the HD signal generators from Accupel and Sencor, provide a solid reference to the same NTSC and ATSC standards, so that various displays can be repeatably calibrated correctly to a "reference", and that, ideally, they will all display the same color of grey when done.

jschefdog, I would help, but unfortunately Hi-Fi buys (Tweeter) cannot honor their two-day delivery of the unit I ordered last Wednesday. For a company that supposedly sitting on +80 units, they found great success in charging my Amex card, but zero success in evverything else.

Thus, I wait (have been since October), and wiat, and wait some more. :(

[i]I don't know if this might be of interest but I found the information on a French forum discussing the HS50/51 using a HTPC.
On Input A (VGA) following refresh rates were tested:

1280x720 @ 60 Hz works 1:1 pixel mapping, no tearing
1280x720 @ 48 Hz works!!!!!! 1:1 pixel mapping, no tearing
1280x720 @ 72 Hz tearing
1280x720 @ 50 Hz seems to work but no 1:1 pixel mapping
[/B]

How is this exactly tested? For me 72Hz is never an issue, especially for HDTV were you can't use reclock to upspeed the movie from 23.976->24fps
due to the fact dvxa has to be enabled for smoorth playback. So how does it perform on 71.928 (3x 23,976)
And of course what are the results on 75Hz refreshrate

thanks in advance
gr,

Albert

Does the Sony VPL-HS50/51 allow for switching between Standard Definition (SD) Colorspace , BT-601 , and High Definition (HD) colorspace , BT-709 ?

If it does not then one must be careful when calibrating this PJ . Sending a Test Pattern or Color Bars from a DVD (SD) through to the PJ will result in a 720p image with SD colors . Sending a "true" HD signal from a Satellite or Cable feed or HD-DVD (as in WMV-HD) will also result in a 720p image with SD colors .

If it does , then seperate calibrations would need to be done for the two different colorspaces , SD and HD and saved into different memories .

If the DVDO IScan-HD+ or the Accupel HDG-3000 are not changing the colorspace when they are scaling the image , then we are still only seeing SD colors and not all the benefits of having a HD PJ .

Someone in the Panny 700 thread mentioned having this option in the menus , but I can't locate it in the Operator's manual . Someone else mentioned here that they had spoken to a Sony Rep and that this might be a possibility in a future upgrade .

For those using HTPC's , try downloading this chart and see if you are getting SD or HD colors... http://www.belle-nuit.com/testchart.html

Just my 2 cents worth ,

Scott..............

What if I send the DVD patterns via 720P/RGB?

1280x720 @ 50 Hz seems to work (but no : yes !) 1:1 pixel mapping


50 works fine ;)

Originally posted by Scott_R_K
Does the Sony VPL-HS50/51 allow for switching between Standard Definition (SD) Colorspace , BT-601 , and High Definition (HD) colorspace , BT-709 ?



Yes the Sony does have this option. You can choose Auto, NTSC 3.58, NTSC 4.43, PAL, SECAM, etc. I have my Pioneer Elite 59AVi running to it in 1080i upconverted mode and the Sony is set to Auto. As far as I can tell, in this mode the Sony senses that this is a SD colorspace even though it is upconverted. I have verified this with Avia Color Decoder and switching color modes on the fly.

ANyone remember what the 'default' vertical lens shift position is along the dial's range? Yesterday when setting a panel alignment test the salesperson went and adjusted the vertical lens shift before I could stop him. I wanted the projector in its default lens shift position to know how it naturally projects above.below the centerline axis. Was the dial in a mid-position, or defected all the way in one direction? Any help would be appreciated.

BTW, the second illustration on p.19 of the OM is very misleading. It suggests that the projector projects directly forward on its centerline. In reality, the projector projects above the centerline, which I believe Brian mentioned to me in another post.

And the reason why I am trying to get back to that default position is to eliminate potential keystone as a result of lens shift.

When I have more time I will post my review of my own unit that I own, and I will tell you guys the true about whats good and bad with the unit!

We wait breathlessly...

Actually, I dont disagree with what you wrote much. You just parroted what I and a few others have already said numerous times in this forum regarding VGA vs HDMI.

Brian

SOWK... stop. Now.

-MP

By the way SOWK = Someone who Knows LOL!!!

I set this up because people in the HDTVARCADE fourm are not the sharpest pencels in the drawer.

Originally posted by SOWK
Eather HTPC's,

that remotley
End. [/B]

"Pencels" ????????? your ranting and raving might be taken more seriously if you could spell. This kind of flaming makes me love my Sony projector even more ! I'll listen to Ferret, Reaper and Bill C. from Widescreen Review before I'll listen to a guy with 18 posts!:o

Mine glad you love your Sony, as do I = I own the unit... I didn't waste $3000 on a unit that can't do anything right! It can, but only through Input A in computer mode at 720P or 1280X720

But if you are going to use the unit with any other input besides Input A in 720P, there are better projectors out there for cheaper!

Originally posted by awtryau89
Yes the Sony does have this option. You can choose Auto, NTSC 3.58, NTSC 4.43, PAL, SECAM, etc. I have my Pioneer Elite 59AVi running to it in 1080i upconverted mode and the Sony is set to Auto. As far as I can tell, in this mode the Sony senses that this is a SD colorspace even though it is upconverted. I have verified this with Avia Color Decoder and switching color modes on the fly.
I see the same thing. I just got a Sony DVP-NS975V upscaling DVD player with HDMI output and tried it with my HS-51. According to the WSR review, this player does not output HD color space from 720p or 1080i. However, I don't see any difference in the Avia color bars when switching between 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i. So it seems that the HS-51 is automatically handling it correctly. I checked the Avia color bars using the red, green and blue filters, and Hue and Saturation were dead on for all 3 with the default PJ settings. See my post in big thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4983509#post4983509) for more details.

Quote...
"According to the WSR review, this player does not output HD color space from 720p or 1080i. However, I don't see any difference in the Avia color bars when switching between 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i. So it seems that the HS-51 is automatically handling it correctly."

This is true in as much as every current DVD player will ALWAYS produce SD colorspace at its output regardless of how it is scaled because the source , the DVD , was encoded in SD colorspace . The PJ is the final "link" in how the signal gets displayed , either in SD or HD colorspace . It is unclear and undocumented whether scaling DVD players will transcode the colorspace as well as upscale the video .

If you can feed the PJ a truly HD signal (BT-709 encoded) and can trust that it is in fact HD encoded (Joe Kane has his doubts) then one must be able to select an HD colorspace option in the PJ menu for a true HD input to properly render the colors .

Another reasonable question would be ...are the color filters used in AVIA and DVE good for HD colorspce ? Hmmmm ?

Scott......................:confused:

Folks, if you have ever displayed a white dot or line as a test pattern did it sit steadily on the screen, or did it vibrate?

I have my HS51 sitting on a wire shelving unit with 3/4" plywood over the wire shelf. Nothing of considerable mass is on this thing and I am observing a mild shaking. I hope its the construction outside and not something specific to my setup.

This shaking is best observed with a 1:1 condition and a pattern that can give a high-contrast (monochromatic b&w) dot or line of single-pixel dimension. I was going to shoot a macro of the panel misalignment, but until I resolve this I cannot as a long exposure will be blurred.

I didn't notice any shaking when I did the 1280x720 white dot field to check for the minor convergence issue.

The panny s97 DVD player I use, according to folks in it's big thread, will alter the colorspace from SD to HD when upconverting. From my experience, there is no color shift so something in the mix is compensating properly.

Also for those interested in the ethernet port, I haven't been able to get much out of mine. The projector just doesn't send any packets out. It doesn't attempt to register itself on a network. . . it doesn't seem to do anything over the ethernet port.

Originally posted by Tekara
I didn't notice any shaking when I did the 1280x720 white dot field to check for the minor convergence issue.

The panny s97 DVD player I use, according to folks in it's big thread, will alter the colorspace from SD to HD when upconverting. From my experience, there is no color shift so something in the mix is compensating properly.

Also for those interested in the ethernet port, I haven't been able to get much out of mine. The projector just doesn't send any packets out. It doesn't attempt to register itself on a network. . . it doesn't seem to do anything over the ethernet port.

Maybe it has to be "activated" by SONY with some future firmware... (but that's just speculation). Time to call SONY and ask about the RJ-45 port...

S.Anderson

Maybe SOWK=LiOn They both seem fixated on pixel perfect.

Brian

Originally posted by Rieper
Maybe it has to be "activated" by SONY with some future firmware... (but that's just speculation). Time to call SONY and ask about the RJ-45 port...

S.Anderson

My thoughts are along similar lines. I believe that the port is there for servicing the projector and that the service tech will have software that will spit out a "magic" signal that the projector will respond to.

But then of course there is the whose issue of why is the port on the american model and not on the european model. . .

i finally got mine last night after 4 months of waiting...sigh...

i noticed pixels vibrating while i was looking for panel misalignment.
mine was set on a firm table and there was no construction work going on at 2am...so Ferret isn't the only person seeing this.
i have to admit that i'm using an elcheapo vga cable and powerstip settings aren't optimized... so NO conclusive answers to why i saw what i saw... i need more time to test so don't let this be a show stopper.

anyway, i was able to access the PJ via Ethernet Port this morning.
i don't know why some of you can't access this menu...

i simply connected HS51 to my SOHO router(DHCP enabled) with a straight thruough cable. HS51 grabbed an IP w/ no prob. i was able to ping it and then access it via web browser. web menu is functional not only in active mode but also in standby mode.


there are 3 links from the index page.
http://www.imoda.net/bbs/data/hs51/index.gif

++ 1st page ++ shows information about your PJ (IP info, serial number, etc)

http://www.imoda.net/bbs/data/hs51/info.gif

++ 2nd page ++ Virtual Remote
(this should become handy for HTPC users. You can even power up the HS51 with this virtual remote)

http://www.imoda.net/bbs/data/hs51/control.gif

++ 3rd page ++ Setup Menu

http://www.imoda.net/bbs/data/hs51/setup.gif


it requires authentication.
i tried a few userID/password combination but they didn't work.
so i don't know exactly what's in there...
i did notice there's a form mail from one of the html sources i captured.
i don't know how this is going to be used...

<form name="tempmail">
<input type="hidden" name="mailtime">
<input type="hidden" name="weekly">
<input type="hidden" name="monthly">
<input type="hidden" name="lamptime">
<input type="hidden" name="maintenancetime">
<input type="hidden" name="maintenancereset">
<input type="hidden" name="timing">
<input type="hidden" name="to1adr">
<input type="hidden" name="to2adr">
<input type="hidden" name="cc1adr">
<input type="hidden" name="cc2adr">
<input type="hidden" name="mailformat">
<input type="hidden" name="mailadr">
<input type="hidden" name="smtp">
<input type="hidden" name="testmail">
<input type="hidden" name="authentication">
<input type="hidden" name="authenticationtype">
<input type="hidden" name="pop3">
<input type="hidden" name="accountname">
<input type="hidden" name="accountpswd">
<input type="hidden" name="accountnames">
<input type="hidden" name="accountpswds">
<input type="hidden" name="mailstatus">
</form>

to zno:

I'm sure Sony can provide the default login, its usually "admin" and you leave password blank. Try this and see if it works for you.

S.Anderson

Sweet! At least I know its not just me observing this jumping phenomena.

720P/RGB(PC)

The computer is the most recent one built in my home. Antec Sonota case and power supply. Abit AA8 motherboard with 925 chipset. Intel P4 LGA775 3GHz processor. Corsair XMSpro memory (1GB). Albatron PCX5300 video (PCI Express, 128MB, NVidia 5300 chipset). Windows XP profession w/SP4.

In fact, its one reason why I am not getting a very clear image to photograph of the pixels. Long exposure and Mexican jumping pixels are not an easy to document thing. :)

BTW, how does one display an interlace signal when the source and display deinterlacer is not on? I didn't know this was possible. I always thought either the source or [digital] display had to deinterlace.

Well. . . I'll be. After seeing the success from from before with the ethernet port I played around with it on mine some more and got it working.

I found out were my problem is, the projector only checks the network when you plug it into the wall and not when an ethernet cable is plugged in like most other electronics. So to get the projector to acquire an address from the DHCP server you have to make all the network connections connections then plug in the power.

Well now it's time to play around with the system and see what all can be done.

Well that wasn't too bad. . . the magic login for the setup menu is:

USER: root
PASS: (leave blank)

Here's a pic of the menu. . . there's some interesting looking things in here:
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/~grav3305/waf/HS51/SONY.JPG

Hehe, you are funny at times, Byte. :) Tomorrow I plan on comparing 1080i/RGB on Input-A to 1080i YPbPr, now that I have fabricated some coomponent cables and run them through the attic. These paths will be direct, with nothing device-wise between the source and display. It will be a matter of switching between YPbPr and RGB on the STB. Let's see what I see then.

Hey, are there macro-style lenses for inexpensive consumer camcorders?

All, has anyone entertained the though of monitoring the outbound traffic on your network to see if the projector sends to your router's gateway (i.e. Internet)? Now that would be funny if Sony did something that mean. :D

Originally posted by Tekara
I found out were my problem is, the projector only checks the network when you plug it into the wall and not when an ethernet cable is plugged in like most other electronics. So to get the projector to acquire an address from the DHCP server you have to make all the network connections connections then plug in the power.
Thanks for the tip Tekara. I tried this on my HS-51 and it worked. Unbelievable. I tried turning the power on and off from the remote after connecting the cable, but not actually pulling the plug. This it the first I have heard of an internet device that only broadcasts when plugged in. I wasted a lot of time trying to get this to work, and never even thought about trying that.

USER: root
Password: <blank>
good find Tekra!
i'll try this when the Falcons game is over.

Go Falcons!!!

I could be wrong but that screen looks like a great and easy way to upgrade firmware. Maybe Sony can put it to use.

Maybe with Internet connectivity we could enable the Order Pizza button.

Last night I got into the Factory menu and tried tweaking all the settings to deterimine if there was any way to get rid of the black border on 720p input. I had a Sony DVD player feeding 720P over HDMI while making the tweaks. Nothing altered the size or appearance of the black border. Sort of a "there is no tweak" post, but I thought I would let others know so they don't waste time on it.

Hey Byte, are these in the factory menu? I think we need to find a speciifc piece of material to use during the experimentation. BTW, I watched about five hours of football on my HS51 today. I compared the 720P/YPbPr, 1080i/YPbPr, 720P/RGB (both video and computer), and 1080i/RGB (both video and computer).

Probably the single most interesting observations was with RGB-computer. When a friend of mine came over today I was doing some more single-pixel observations (have a look at the last panel misalignment pic I posted). We just happen to stumble upon playing with the APA and the before/after was remarkably different.

At the moment of discovery, we were viewing his HS51 (yes, to in my house, hehe). Looking at the the WRGB pixel set in the black field showed some 2D dispersion (x-y) while in RGB-computer mode. We hit the APA (I do not know why we did this) and waited for it to quit movie the projected image and then the 2D dispersion reduced itself to 1D (x-axis only).

I do not know why this is a feature of RGB-computer, but then again this examples my ignorance of this feature altogether.

I guess I will need to learn how to adjust sync timings per input and try again. BTW, I forgot to mention something else my guests and I observed yesterday everytime we changed signal types (PC-RGB vs. Video-RGB vs. YPbPr {on the YCbCr input}). The color setting kept changing itself from Medium, which a few have decided is closest to the D65 marker, to Low.

Man, someone could go a long way to writing a consumers Dummies Guide to Calibrating the Sony VPL-HS51. And I'm serious!

For those of you with a iScanHD+ and a DirecTv HD Receiver/DVR (HR10-250).....
This may work with other HDCP sources!

I am not new to Projection TV and I'm currently on my 4th System. I now have what I consider to be the most impressive, drop dead gorgeous, absolutley jaw dropping picture I have ever seen on ANY Projection system.

My original connection was : HR10-250 -> iScanHD+(set to 720p output) > VPL-HS51 via HDMI

I decided to try the INPUTA - Computer Mode 720P hookup which produced absolutely great results from a Sony RDR-HX900 Dvd player but I quickly found out that when I switched the input source to DVI the iScanHD+ refused to output on the VGA port.

Well guess what? If you configure the iScanHD+ to HDCP OFF you can input a HDMI 1080i signal and OUTPUT to VGA. This works with the Hughes DirecTv Receiver with aweseome results.

Here's what happening:
iScanHD+ setting

DVDO manual
HDCP Mode OFF
HDCP is disabled at the iScan HD+'s DVI input. Some sources will turn off HDCP in this case the iScan HD+ will drive a non-HDCP DVI display or analog display.

So the Hughes will output HDMI output if it detects a non HDCP device.

My new configuration:

HR10-250 via 1080i HDMI -> iScanHD+ 720p -> INPUT A Computer

Awesome !

Gary

Proberly asked before, but is there also a possibility to connect a HS50 (europe) to ethernet. Or is this only possible with HS51?

Originally posted by hybride
Proberly asked before, but is there also a possibility to connect a HS50 (europe) to ethernet. Or is this only possible with HS51? You can find your answer here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=543305&sortby=&sortorder=).

Originally posted by Bytehoven
Regarding APA... it is very much AccuBlend on the NEC projectors, although I found NEC does a better job. It's basically an auto calibration function. Although I have noted when the projector auto calibrates for one format under VGA-RGB, it can throw out calibration under HDMI. Also, APA does not perfectly calibrate for the input signal.
What does APA do under HDMI? I thought it only worked with Input A in Computer mode.

I also found that APA got close with my HTPC connected to input A, but manual tweaking of the Adjust Signal settings was required to eliminate the interference patterns and get 1 to 1 pixel mapping. This was true even if I set Powerstrip to exactly match Preset Signal 56 on page 57 of the manual.

Curious, how does one create a custom resolution in PS to where it will allow non-integer values for refresh/scan rates?

apa is nothing but a fancy name for auto-adjustment. It's a common feature, i believe pretty much all PC monitors has it; but only usable for VGA.
My retired Panny 500 has it and so do all 4 of my flat PC minitors, from very first generation of LCD to current Dell WD. It works the same, an auto timing and dot pixels adjustment.

one thing i noticed is with VGA 720p in, you 1:1 mapping only if you set to computer RGB mode. In video mode, you get same borders issue just like hdmi 720p in with similar blurring effect on clear texts. That means 720p digital in is same as video mode in Vga or the other way around? sounds like a 'centered timing' found in most digital LCD display.

Perhaps hdmi 720p is not 1:1 mapping (blurring texts) after all or it's not a true 720 panels but bigger ....and hdmi 720p is defaulted to centered timing?

5 minutes lunch bs over, back to work.

I did not know an acronym was a 'fancy name', LOL. auto pixel adjustment

Hmm, durnig yesterday's Eagles game on Fox, which was ni 720P OTA there were borders that I tried to use APA on, but there is a caveat ni the OM about borders being present. BUT, APA does not work in Video-GRB mode. So, when I switched to Video-GRB mode the problems went away even though APA doesn't work in Video-GRB.

I did not know an acronym was a 'fancy name', LOL. auto pixel adjustment

LOL, it's? Never read the menu, pardon me.

If only i can't get htpc to 1080i to hs51/50, i'll be done with this borders issues. But, 25' vga is on its way, pray it doesn't ghost with that length.

All, how have you labored into lowering the black level of your projectors?

If I display a 0,0,0 desktop via a PC using the PC-GBR on Input-A (noting that I have an iconless desktop with an Auto-Hide taskbar) the minimum amount of light is fairly high to me. If I run Avia, go to Chapter #7 (Gray Steps and Ramps), and play either Vertical or Horizontal 10-IRE Steps I cannot distinguish between the two darkest bars.

This pattern is 4:3 displayed, and the two identical-looking darkest bars are producing what I would call the minimal amount of light for the setup at hand. Now, if I use a regular DVD player, which I have done, I use the Component transport into the projector with the same results. BTW, this was after setting the Brightness (black level) and Contrast (white level).

Because I am looking to compare this to and compete it with a 7" CRT I am seeking appropriate methods for lowering this minimal light output without greatly impacting the white level. I figured halving would be the most I could entertain, but presently finding a 77mm ND2 (0.3) is somewhat difficult in the local setting.

Suggestions?

Unfortunately, I have no idea what you just said. :(Brian