They don't switch between 50Hz and 60Hz at the camera-end though, because they don't suddenly stop broadcasting across the Earth depending on which region they're in.


Sure they do. That truck is fully switchable between 50 and 60Hz. Almost all the HD trucks in Europe are switchable because they expect to do stuff for US customers. I am pretty sure that SiSLink truck for FOM uses Grass Valley cameras which are 50/60Hz.

There are no 1080p broadcasts anywhere. 1080i and 720p is all there is.

Yep - though 1080/25p and 1080/24p production is widespread, and can be carried losslessly in a 1080/50i or 1080/60i signal for reconstruction in the display (though many display de-interlacers don't handle 2:2 and 3:2 that well)

HOWEVER - the broadcast formats are still 1080i (50 or 60) and 720p (50 or 60) - and 1080/50p or 60p PRODUCTION required for sports is still experimental at best, non-existent at worst.

They don't switch between 50Hz and 60Hz at the camera-end though, because they don't suddenly stop broadcasting across the Earth depending on which region they're in.

You're missing the point.

Most HD production trucks can run in either 50Hz or 60Hz (and also some can work in 24Hz, 25Hz and 30Hz progressive format for certain shows) and the cameras, vision mixers, VTRs/VDRs are all switchable or cope with different frame rates.

Obviously a production will be at a single frame rate (unless you are doing something funky with 50i/25p mixed formats) - and often (but not always) this rate will be the frame rate of the host broadcaster responsible for that coverage (i.e. the local frame rate of the TV system in that country)

Therefore events in the US, Canada, Japan etc. are covered in 1080/60i (and 50Hz countries get a conversion) whilst events in Europe, China, Australia etc. are covered in 1080/50i (and viewers in 60Hz countries get a conversion)

It is not common for local production of global events like F1 to be at a single frame rate at every venue - production in 50Hz countries will be at 50Hz, production in 60Hz countries will be at 60Hz. However it IS possible to mount unilateral coverage (i.e. coverage aimed at a single country) in a non-local frame rate - such as using an HD truck in Europe to make a show just for the US in 60Hz. The multi-frame rate ability has made life a bit easier when you are mounting huge events - as European trucks can now be used in 60Hz regions (as was the case with the Japan/Korea World Cup I believe, and the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics?) and vice versa, as well as European trucks doing 60Hz production for US/Japanese clients.

Sure they do. That truck is fully switchable between 50 and 60Hz. Almost all the HD trucks in Europe are switchable because they expect to do stuff for US customers. I am pretty sure that SiSLink truck for FOM uses Grass Valley cameras which are 50/60Hz.

CKNA - did you know SIS have been announced as the preferred bidder for the BBC Outside Broadcast division?

Just like the US Networks - the BBC is finally divesting itself of its in-house OB facilities, which have already been commercially available for many years to non-BBC productions. It IS keeping its studios though - which wasn't expected as they were put up for sale as well.

Sure they do. That truck is fully switchable between 50 and 60Hz. Almost all the HD trucks in Europe are switchable because they expect to do stuff for US customers. I am pretty sure that SiSLink truck for FOM uses Grass Valley cameras which are 50/60Hz.

Well unless you work for the production crew, I'll take the word of the gentleman I spoke with who did seem quite knowledgeable on the topic as he didn't bat an eye before talking about framerates and resolutions.

He was wearing a Formula One International outfit on and when I asked him if he was taping in 720p or 1080i he immediately said "no it's 1080p at the camera, 50 frames per second", he continued by saying that the most accurate broadcast is in European countries and that the 60Hz countries will always be done as the secondary broadcast regardless of venue.

There is no coverage controlled by the "local" broadcaster in Canada - it is all presented by F1 and ITV. With Speed or Fox's coverage they too are given the feed from ITV and overlay their own graphics and do their own audio. You can watch the ITV feed side by side with the US feed and it's identical.

Thank God in Canada TSN just go with the ITV audio. It's painful listening to the guys from Speed.

Well unless you work for the production crew, I'll take the word of the gentleman I spoke with who did seem quite knowledgeable on the topic as he didn't bat an eye before talking about framerates and resolutions.

He was wearing a Formula One International outfit on and when I asked him if he was taping in 720p or 1080i he immediately said "no it's 1080p at the camera, 50 frames per second", he continued by saying that the most accurate broadcast is in European countries and that the 60Hz countries will always be done as the secondary broadcast regardless of venue.

There is no coverage controlled by the "local" broadcaster in Canada - it is all presented by F1 and ITV. With Speed or Fox's coverage they too are given the feed from ITV and overlay their own graphics and do their own audio. You can watch the ITV feed side by side with the US feed and it's identical.

Thank God in Canada TSN just go with the ITV audio. It's painful listening to the guys from Speed.


It maybe 1080p at the camera if they use Sony new HDC1500 cameras, but output is still 1080i. It makes no difference as their wireless cameras are SD anyway.

Speed coverage maybe the same, but Fox coverage last year had their own remote people in the pits.

There also lies the problem with FOM treating North America as secondary. If they want F1 to be popular here, they have to treat it better, like still have US Grand Prix and no strikes of crews like it happened two years ago, where only six drivers competed at Indy.

CKNA - did you know SIS have been announced as the preferred bidder for the BBC Outside Broadcast division?

Just like the US Networks - the BBC is finally divesting itself of its in-house OB facilities, which have already been commercially available for many years to non-BBC productions. It IS keeping its studios though - which wasn't expected as they were put up for sale as well.


That's cool about SIS. Do you have any specs on HD trucks they are using. I can't find it. What does SIS stand for?

That's cool about SIS. Do you have any specs on HD trucks they are using. I can't find it. What does SIS stand for?
SIS = Satellite Information Services I believe.

AIUI they started by generating "closed circuit" race course coverage for satellite link (B-MAC I think) for betting shops in the UK - where horse racing is a major betting sport. Think they were called "Racecourse Technical Services" back then - and had a reputation for being very cheap and at the very low quality end of the spectrum - just enough quality to see the horses run round the track and cross the finishing line.

SIS now provide the content, studio and OB, for At The Races - a horse racing channel available to Sky Digital subscribers in the UK

They now, through SISLink - their SNG wing, operate the SNG operations for ITN (who provide ITV and Channel Four's news content in the UK) and Sky News (who operate the Sky News channel and provide news content for the fifth terrestrial channel "five")

I don't know what HD facilities SIS already had - I'd imagine they have HD capable satellite uplink facilities - but I'm not aware of their production vehicles capabilities SD or HD. They obviously have enough to provide SD coverage of horse races - but AIUI this is effectively a small multicamera SNG truck not a decent production truck (though I may be wrong) I think that is why SIS are buying BBC OBs - as it provides them with an experienced OB staff base (including the very well regarded "special cameras" team who innovate the use of new mountings and link systems to put cameras in new locations and provide new views of sporting and other events)

AIUI SISLink have the Uplink contract for ITV's F1 coverage for all but one of the Grand Prix for a couple of years - i.e. they provide the satellite uplink operation. However I'm pretty certain that BBC OBs still have the European production truck deal.

Until freesat launches in the UK ITV is an SD only operation (and SD-lite on DSat at 544x576 not 720/704x576 as they are OTA digital)

AIUI the BBC currently have 4 HD OB units :

Unit 2 which dates from the early 90s when it was a composite PAL analogue truck, but which is small enough to park in London locations that an artic can't - and it spends a lot of time doing Music shows like the Proms, Royal Opera productions etc., and used to park outside the Later with Jools Holland studio at TV Centre before any TV Centre studios had been upgraded to HD. The truck doesn't have a huge production area by modern standards, and doesn't have a large VT/EVS replay area - but is ideal for recording events, and in the 90s used to do a lot of football matches with a secondary VT vehicle providing replays.

Units 10/11/12 are near identical - and are all now HD capable I believe. These are larger units with bigger production areas, more cameras and on-board EVS/VT operations. They are the work horses of most BBC sporting events these days - but also do Glastonbury etc.

There are HD SNG and Terrestrial microwave units in the BBC fleet as well.

The BBC have two megatruck units - the CMCCR and the DMCCR - which are designed for co-ordinating very large OB operations (and occasionally very large studio shows) - they don't have lots of cameras themselves, but instead are designed to take in many multiple feeds - so covered shows like the Oxford Cambridge boat race, provide the BBC One/Two presentation at Wimbledon etc. (One truck runs both networks during the day - hopping the presentation studio in and out of the two network paths for junctions between courts etc.) I believe plans are being made to create an HD replacement - presumably for the CMCCR which is itself a digital SDI upgrade of a composite truck built in 1995.

www.bbcresources.com has more details.

Well unless you work for the production crew, I'll take the word of the gentleman I spoke with who did seem quite knowledgeable on the topic as he didn't bat an eye before talking about framerates and resolutions.


I work with the production crew who do ITVs European presentation coverage and also do the ITV coverage of the British Grand Prix. (BBC OB Resources provide ITV with their facilities in Europe)


He was wearing a Formula One International outfit on and when I asked him if he was taping in 720p or 1080i he immediately said "no it's 1080p at the camera, 50 frames per second", he continued by saying that the most accurate broadcast is in European countries and that the 60Hz countries will always be done as the secondary broadcast regardless of venue.


The cameras are likely to be 1080/50p capable - but it is almost certainly operating in 1080i/720p if it is running HD.

There is no system, in widespread use, currently to get this 1080/50p video to the other end of a camera cable - it is only available dual-link HD-SDI out of the camera head. (This allows it to be recorded on an HDCAM SR field recorder but not to be fed to the truck on the other end of the fibre/triax)

As a viewer in Europe of ITVs coverage - it is always 60Hz converted to 50Hz when coming from a 60Hz country - you can see the standards conversion artefacts...

Unless I was talking to the Vision Operators who were running the cameras in the truck I would take anything spoken by anyone else in the operation with a pinch of salt - particularly camera operators - who effectively "just frame the picture" (but they do it very nicely) The camera itself is remotely irised, colour balanced, format switched (in some cases), has its ND filters switched in and out, remotely by the vision team.

If the guy said "taping" then I'd be very dubious - or was he running a camcorder? F1 is live - not taped (and EVS would be used not "tape" for replays) - and there is no widespread location 1080/50p "tape" format.


There is no coverage controlled by the "local" broadcaster in Canada - it is all presented by F1 and ITV. With Speed or Fox's coverage they too are given the feed from ITV and overlay their own graphics and do their own audio. You can watch the ITV feed side by side with the US feed and it's identical.


ITV will work in the native format of the country they are in (which is why they use BBC Resources in 50Hz Europe but don't in 60Hz Canada and the US) and convert 60Hz stuff in the UK - which is why you can watch the ITV Sport coverage (presumably with ITV Sport graphics and presentation - Steve Ryder and/or Jim Rosenthal in-vision?) with ITV Sport graphics in 60Hz from 60Hz locations. (Or do you just get ITV Sport commentary and not the in-vision presentation)

Speed coverage maybe the same, but Fox coverage last year had their own remote people in the pits.


Sounds like the way the BBC do their coverage of MotoGP (the motorcyle equivalent of F1 that the BBC have rights to - and is now their main motorsport since ITV got F1).

For European events they send an OB truck and co-ordinate the coverage on location (with BBC unilateral radio and cabled cameras (or sometimes multiple radio cams) commentators and the multilateral host broadcaster coverage all mixed in an OB truck on-site, along with VT play-ins played in locally) The OB facilities are now provided by Alfacam - who are based in mainland Europe so have lower travel costs than a UK based BBC crew... (Previously it was often the BBC crew who provided ITV's European presentation operation who also did MotoGP - as they are seldom -if ever - the same weekends) AIUI this feeds into a BBC gallery at TV Centre who add graphics, and also have an ISDN feed of commentary and the multilateral host broadcast coverage, to act as a backup for the OB operation on location.

For non-European events they send the commentary team, who are ISDNed back to London, along with a camera operator and reporter who work with a single local radio camera operation which is backhauled unilaterally to London, along with a multilateral feed of the host broadcast coverage, which is mixed together in the London gallery.

MotoGP has gone 16:9 SD this season - and is expected to go HD 16:9 in the next year or two.

SpeedHD showed last nights MotoGP in 16:9 SD, a big improvement from the 4:3 feed from last year.

If they can/did do MotoGP 16:9, then they will most certainly show F1 in 16:9 as well. I think most folks are expecting it, but it now looks like a sure thing.

I thought people said that Speed did it in WS last year? It is good to see the Moto GP go 16:9 also but stupid me forgot to watch it. At least I can't miss the F1, it is right in the middle of the day. Just make sure you keep out of the city (Melbourne) on the day unless you are heading to the race.

Those cars (especially back in the V10) days were bad on the ears even across the town.

Fox did several races last year, and those were shown 16:9 SD. SpeedHD went live just before the Brazilian GP, and yet they still showed it 4:3.

Fox did several races last year, and those were shown 16:9 SD. SpeedHD went live just before the Brazilian GP, and yet they still showed it 4:3.

As said earlier Speed did not go HD before Brazilian GP. It was just place holder on D* with upconverted SD channel. Speed HD did couple things in HD and widescreen in January and launched officially in February before Daytona 500.

looked on the guide for the upcoming race. there was no HD sign on the guide on direct tv, so does this mean we are out of luck? upconverting signal?

F1 is getting increasingly lame. Ecclestone doesn't get it. I'm not holding out hope for F1 in HD. I think the sport is more interested in being adversarial and anti-fan than anything else.

I'm off to Sebring tomorrow to watch some real racing (ALMS, Speed World Challenge). I'll be back next week to watch the F1 cry babies wetting their diapers on my DVR. I expect it will be in SD widescreen.

There also lies the problem with FOM treating North America as secondary. If they want F1 to be popular here, they have to treat it better, like still have US Grand Prix and no strikes of crews like it happened two years ago, where only six drivers competed at Indy.

I can assure you, if "here" means North America, and you think it isn't popular, you've never been to Montreal for a race; it is one of the most popular venues on the circuit drawing an estimated 500,000 people to the city every year. It is one of the cornerstones of Montreal's current economy.

If the guy said "taping" then I'd be very dubious

I think you'll find it was me who said "taping", not the cameraman.

SpeedHD showed last nights MotoGP in 16:9 SD, a big improvement from the 4:3 feed from last year.

If they can/did do MotoGP 16:9, then they will most certainly show F1 in 16:9 as well. I think most folks are expecting it, but it now looks like a sure thing.

Yep - MotoGP host broadcast feed is now 16:9 SD not 4:3 SD as last year. Qatar looked OK - though not stellar in picture quality terms on BBC Three SD.

(Because it was an evening race it was shown on digital-only BBC Three - the lunchtime races are normally shown on BBC Two, which is also on analogue OTA. Qualifications are shown on BBCi Interactive TV on OTA, Cable and satellite - which is full screen video but not on a channel number - you press the red button on a BBC channel and select it from a BBCi menu. The BBCi channels are 544x576 SD-lite on OTA - but 720x576 full-SD on DSat and DCab AIUI)

I think you'll find it was me who said "taping", not the cameraman.

Sorry - my mistake.

The most unambiguous term I've come across is "shooting" - i.e. we're shooting in 1080/50i - as "taping" implies recording, and "filming" implies the use of celluloid.

looked on the guide for the upcoming race. there was no HD sign on the guide on direct tv, so does this mean we are out of luck? upconverting signal?

Does Speed flag anything as HD in the EPG?

Good point Jefbal. I do not know because I just got Sat one weelk ago.

They do with some of their primary NASCAR programming. The F1 listing does not have a HD tag but so far the HD tag has not been definitive.

F1 is getting increasingly lame. Ecclestone doesn't get it. I'm not holding out hope for F1 in HD. I think the sport is more interested in being adversarial and anti-fan than anything else.


I don't think F1 is getting lame, but I do think Ecclestone needs to be replaced quickly, he is a total slapper.

http://tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story/?ID=231642&hubname=auto_racing

Now he's threatening to take the Australian Grand Prix away because the organizers don't want to make it a night race.

Ecclestone has expressed his preference for Australia to switch to a night race in order for it to be a better viewing experience for European audiences.

"At the moment, it is ridiculous that people are asked not to sleep in order to see it live. That can't carry on," the F1 supremo tells The Mail on Sunday.

"The alternative is to pull the race completely from Australia. I've spoken to (Australian Prime Minister) Kevin Rudd and he's told me it would cost too much to re-stage the race, so I guess that's it. We won't be going to Australia for too much longer."


Umm, hello? PVR? What an absolute tit. No signs of the Australian race this weekend being in HD either.

Bernie is a f&*king spanner, no two ways about it.

The worst person in F1, in fact motor sport is without a doubt Max Mosley.

He is diluting what has made F1 great thru' out the years, and if left to his own devices might well completely ruin the sport.

When Bernie and the team owners can't run the sport the way they see fit, it bodes poorly for the sport.

As for Bernie, I believe it is time for him to pass the 'crown'. He is only interested in money at this point in his life, and is not remembering who in the past has helped him become a billionaire, e.g. the British, Aussie, European fans, etc. To threaten to strip the UK of its GP, when F1 is essentially 80% a British based sport is outrageous, imho.

Bish

BTW, an F1 race in wide screen SD digital is far better than having to watch it in 480i stretcho vision. I'd rather it be in HD of course, but this is a good first step.

I agree it is a good first step, but now a whole year has passed and it's time to take the second step.

Every race last year was in widescreen.

I think with the reduction of driver aids this year's F1 is far better than previous seasons. Not to mention Indy was a lousy circuit for F1 and Singapore looks to be amazing, especially as it is the first night race.

If we want a U.S. GP, it should be at Laguna Seca!

Indy was a lousy circuit for F1

If we want a U.S. GP, it should be at Laguna Seca!

I will kindly disagree. Indy is simply the greatest motor racing facility in the world. And the F1 course, though lacking elevation, was a fine course given the passing opportunities at the end of the long straight. And if you sit in the right spot at Indy you can see about 60% of the track if not more. I've been to Spa, Belgium as well---widely considered the greatest road course in the world. It's beautiful, but the spectator's view is limited. Right now there is no other facility in the States considered 'F1 worthy', whatever that means.

Whereas it may be so from the (on-site) spectators' point of view, it is disliked by the drivers (has been referred to as a "mickey mouse" course). Laguna on the other hand is a far better course, but I think F1's main problem with it is that it has limited crowd capacity and facilities.

Laguna Seca although small is a true road course where as Indy has a road course built inside of it. I'm not bashing Indy because if it were not for them we wouldn't have the racing we have been blessed with so far! They are bringing motogp there in September,woo,hoo! :D

If we want a U.S. GP, it should be at Laguna Seca!If I were going to pick a course for a USGP I would take Road America, a proper road circuit if there ever was one.

But the problem with RA and LS, and just about any other American race circiuit is that they just aren't up to FIA F1 standards. Indy had to spend $20M+ for F1.

I attended the USGP at Indy for 5 years, and enjoyed it a lot. It's really a pretty good course for a roaval. But if the USGP returns there, it will be different. They've reversed the direction and added a chicanne at old T13 for the MotoGP series.

Oh let me be clear, I highly doubt, barring the ground-up building of a U.S. F1 track that there will ever be F1 racing in the States again.

Laguna Seca is just where my pipe dream takes me. Of course, Limerock and Watkins Glen would be great courses too, but as was pointed out...they are in no shape to take on the demands of F1.

But, and with all due respect to my friend in Indiana, Indy is not an F1 track nor is it even close to the best racing facility bar none. If I never go there, I won't have missed much. And when was racing about the spectator?

Racing has always been a rich boy sport, ego a ego, etc. To be honest, F1 is the perfect extrapolation of old guard racing just in 21st century form. For me it is about the thrill of the cars, the technology and the driving skill. There are plenty of other more plebian and accessible race formats. If snobbery bothers you go elsewhere!

I will kindly disagree. Indy is simply the greatest motor racing facility in the world. And the F1 course, though lacking elevation, was a fine course given the passing opportunities at the end of the long straight. And if you sit in the right spot at Indy you can see about 60% of the track if not more. I've been to Spa, Belgium as well---widely considered the greatest road course in the world. It's beautiful, but the spectator's view is limited. Right now there is no other facility in the States considered 'F1 worthy', whatever that means.

When you're in the stands at Interlagos, you can see practically 100% of the course.

What is it about the "facility" that makes Indy the greatest? For me it's the entire racing experience. What you do before the race, during the weekend, the city, the people, the food, the drivers, the cars, etc., etc.

For me Montreal is the greatest place for racing, because Montreal is the greatest city in the world.

(...and I'm a Leafs fan)

In the words of Jim Rome...Bang your Monkey!!!

http://www.speedtv.com/article/get-speed-in-hd-today/

so this pretty much confirms that the weekend's feed will be upconverted SD,
since they pushed
at least give us widescreen like last year's TSN please :o

If I were going to pick a course for a USGP I would take Road America, a proper road circuit if there ever was one.

But the problem with RA and LS, and just about any other American race circiuit is that they just aren't up to FIA F1 standards. Indy had to spend $20M+ for F1.

I attended the USGP at Indy for 5 years, and enjoyed it a lot. It's really a pretty good course for a roaval. But if the USGP returns there, it will be different. They've reversed the direction and added a chicanne at old T13 for the MotoGP series.

I read that also. I guess there was a concern about top speed and the wall? I'm trying to go to the Motogp race at Donington in June! :D

We were hoping for Road Atlanta in 99-00 and we are hoping some more:)

-TPM

We were hoping for Road Atlanta in 99-00 and we are hoping some more:)

-TPM

Man that would be sweet... I sure don't remember seeing nearly enough seats the last time I was there though :(

Sure wish my apartment complex would upgrade their dish and switching so I could get the MPEG-4 D* channels by Sunday...

Man that would be sweet... I sure don't remember seeing nearly enough seats the last time I was there though :(

Sure wish my apartment complex would upgrade their dish and switching so I could get the MPEG-4 D* channels by Sunday...There aren't really any seats to speak of at Road Atlanta. Some on the front straight and at T10b. But it is a great track. We go there for Petit Le Mans every year. It's our favorite race.

We're about 6 hours from arriving at Sebring for this year's classic 12 Hours. :D

If the USGP comes back to Indy we'll go again. Our tickets are in the Penthouse right across from pit row & will put us at the brake point going into the new counter-clockwise T1.

RA would be a GREAT track for a GP. It has the character to make the race interesting, unlike a lot of the modern cookie cutter courses.

Unfortunately, it would take tens of millions to even approach bringing the circuit up to GP standards. I agree we are more likely to ground up build a track. Somebody get Bruton involved. :)

The Napoleonic f***** said F1 wouldn't miss the US, and unfortunately he was probably correct, but one can hope even in the most forlorn situations. :(

Bernie might not miss the USGP,

But Honda, Toyota, BWM, Mercedes, and Ferarri do.

I guess Renault and tata could care less.

Bernie might not miss the USGP,

But Honda, Toyota, BWM, Mercedes, and Ferarri do.

I guess Renault and tata could care less.

Well, for half a billion dollars (give or take a hundred million) they could build a circuit and host a race for 10 seasons. BMV has a location just south of Charlotte that would do nicely.

Don't think they miss it that much...

Yes, the numbers are arbitrary and pulled out of thin air. My point is the costs are prohibitive given potential returns.

Can someone please watch the F1 Practice tonight and tell me if they do indeed show it in HD? Thanks.

Sorry, no one on this thread watches F1....

Can someone please watch the F1 Practice tonight and tell me if they do indeed show it in HD? Thanks.

DVR maybe? remote booking?

Argh, I have a HR20 at work, but its having a problem with receiving signal for Speed & and a few other of the newer HD channels. D* is coming out on Monday. I should have called last week.

I'm watching the Practice now and while it may not be in HD it does look pretty good in upconverted widescreen SD.

F1 has never looked so good!!! Yeah!

I'm watching the Practice now and while it may not be in HD it does look pretty good in upconverted widescreen SD.

F1 has never looked so good!!! Yeah!

My RCN feed of F1 on Speed TV looks like sh!t. Granted, it's not an HD channel on my cable yet, however, it is not even in wide screen SD. Same old 4:3 garbage SD feed.:mad: Might as well turn off my 50" Kuro and turn on my old 27" crt.

The overlay graphics are very sharp. I think Speed must be taking the SD widescreen feed, upconverting it and then overlaying HD graphics.

This is only my guess so it would be nice for someone else to confirm.

Watching on Speed HD via Directv's HR20-700 on a Philips 47in 1080p display via HDMI.

Even the on-board cameras are widescreen, but at a lot lower quality thought.....

The overlay graphics are very sharp. I think Speed must be taking the SD widescreen feed, upconverting it and then overlaying HD graphics.

This is only my guess so it would be nice for someone else to confirm.


If they were doing that, then they should be positioning them for 16:9 instead of 4:3

You would think that the advertisers would push for HD as in SD (especially on most systems) the broadcast quality is so bad that you can's read the sponsors logos. In HD that would become so much easier.

To me, the sponsors logos are more legible than last year but still a bit short of the full HD experience.

If they were doing that, then they should be positioning them for 16:9 instead of 4:3

Good point.

In fact, after I posted the message it was commented (I forget by whom) that the new graphics (that detailed drivers) came from F1 management - so I figure it is just good upscaling of a good quality SD feed.

One thing that is apparent is how much we have been short changed over the years because Standard Definition widescreen can give a very good picture (think DVD quality) when not compressed to hell by the broadcasters.

Calling it SD isn't quite fair. As others have said, the world feed is sent out in 576i (PAL), and Speed is upconverting that to 720p. And the point about advertisers and HD is a good one. You'd think Bernie would jump at anything that would please the sponsors.

Calling it SD isn't quite fair. As others have said, the world feed is sent out in 576i (PAL), and Speed is upconverting that to 720p. And the point about advertisers and HD is a good one. You'd think Bernie would jump at anything that would please the sponsors.

Though I now live in Chicago I am originally from the UK so for me SD is also 576i PAL :)

I thought about the advertising angle because I work for an Italian company that has sponsored and had its logos on the Ferrari nose before. I remember the company made a big deal about the sponsorship (Ferrari came 1,2 in the race if I remember correctly) bit when I watched the race the logos were illegible. I doubt our company cared because our boses got to hang out with the Ferrari team, and most of the sponsorship benefits were then promoted in print advertising where the quality is significantly better than even HD. Just my view on things....

Something tells me that we are going to choking over what to call this "ED/SD/HD" F1 feed all year long.

Just wish I could see it on Dish too. :(

Yeah, everyone without D* will have to wait for the FOX races again.
I'm surprised that we really haven't heard a peep from FOM or Bernie about HD. There seems to be a story in Autosport everyday with his comments about something, but never HD or broadcast rights. Then again, if they make the HD jump, we might hear not about it until the last minute, like how ITV waited until today to announce their streaming plans.
Oh, and does this thread need a name change now?

Something tells me that we are going to choking over what to call this "ED/SD/HD" F1 feed all year long.

Why? It is SD. Very simple answer that - all local SD is 16:9 in most countries. Simply because it is UC doesn't make it HD. Over here (Australia) it is upconverted to 1080i and looks just like any other sport in the Country.

It would be great to see it in HD but the chances of that look low. Not that it matters too much as it isn't that bad - 4:3 on the other hand was inexcusable in this age.

Call it what you want, but it looks much better than any previous SpeedTV F1 coverage. They have the graphics placed for a 4:3 display though, and that is a little annoying.

Call it what you want, but it looks much better than any previous SpeedTV F1 coverage. They have the graphics placed for a 4:3 display though, and that is a little annoying.

All major international sports covered in 16:9 will be shot 4:3 safe - and the host broadcast graphics package will also be 4:3 safe.

Two main reasons :

1. There are still a lot of 4:3 SD countries out there with no 16:9 SD or HD infrastructure - so they have to have a 4:3 feed (and the cheapest way of generating this is to take a 4:3 centre cut from a 16:9 SD or HD feed)

2. Many 16:9 SD and HD countries with 4:3 SD (mainly analogue) outlets - like analogue OTA - will still broadcast sports in 4:3 full-frame - and most will also flag their 16:9 SD broadcasts as AFD 4:3 safe (triggering a 4:3 centre cut on some boxes configured to feed a 4:3 display)

Any major host broadcast feed from a major event - F1, MotoGP, Olympics, Wimbledon, World Cup Football, Six Nations Rugby etc. will be shot 16:9 HD or SD but will be 4:3 action and graphics safe for quite a few years more...

It looked nice on SpeedHD with Directv. Just like the Canadian and US races last year. I was hoping for full HD but I'm very happy with this.

I thought it looked great. I can only imagine and hope that HD will come and fast!

All major international sports covered in 16:9 will be shot 4:3 safe - and the host broadcast graphics package will also be 4:3 safe.

Two main reasons :

1. There are still a lot of 4:3 SD countries out there with no 16:9 SD or HD infrastructure - so they have to have a 4:3 feed (and the cheapest way of generating this is to take a 4:3 centre cut from a 16:9 SD or HD feed)

2. Many 16:9 SD and HD countries with 4:3 SD (mainly analogue) outlets - like analogue OTA - will still broadcast sports in 4:3 full-frame - and most will also flag their 16:9 SD broadcasts as AFD 4:3 safe (triggering a 4:3 centre cut on some boxes configured to feed a 4:3 display)

Any major host broadcast feed from a major event - F1, MotoGP, Olympics, Wimbledon, World Cup Football, Six Nations Rugby etc. will be shot 16:9 HD or SD but will be 4:3 action and graphics safe for quite a few years more...

It's not the host graphics I was complaining about, rather the SpeedTV bug. Since they (speed) are adding it, it would be nice if it was moved to a different location for SpeedHD. Most other HD networks move the bug relative to the SD channel placement.

It's not the host graphics I was complaining about, rather the SpeedTV bug. Since they (speed) are adding it, it would be nice if it was moved to a different location for SpeedHD. Most other HD networks move the bug relative to the SD channel placement.

Ah - sorry - didn't get that. I guess it depends how the SD channel is generated.

To me it looks exactly the same as it did last year.

I guess I'll just have to be happy that it's in WS.

Calling it SD isn't quite fair. As others have said, the world feed is sent out in 576i (PAL), and Speed is upconverting that to 720p. And the point about advertisers and HD is a good one. You'd think Bernie would jump at anything that would please the sponsors.

since when is PAL SD not SD? :confused:

i agree with doby- the practice last night looked exactly the same as last year- the 16x9 screen format was the only difference.

Anyone else watching the American Lemans on Speed? Sure looks like HD to me!

The in-car cameras switch to 4:3, but everything else appears HD to me.

What say the rest of you?

Yeah, all of the ALMS stuff on Speed is supposed to be in HD this year. So it all of the IRL stuff on the Micky Sports networks.

Anyone else watching the American Lemans on Speed? Sure looks like HD to me!

The in-car cameras switch to 4:3, but everything else appears HD to me.

What say the rest of you?

Odd that the in-car cameras are 4:3, and not SD 16:9 upconverted. 16:9 SD in-car cameras aren't exactly cutting edge...

What's the latest word on F1 in HD? Last I could find, Bernie said not enough people have it so wasn't important. Like others have said, in Canada we get a 16x9 SD feed which I guess is better than 4x3. I swear I saw a copy of the 2007 Japanese Grand Prix in HD floating on the net. It was several gigabytes but I didn't bother downloading it as a friend just told me it was super wet and nothing could be seen.

Odd that the in-car cameras are 4:3, and not SD 16:9 upconverted.

That's how Nascar was before they went to HD in-car cameras.

The race was edge of the seat thrilling! I'm a fan of Ferrari, but all in all great racing.

As for picture quality, it was certainly improved with full screen, but I can't say I would be able to tell in a head to head between this year and last. Perhaps the feed was a bit more compressed last year.

I could tell that the newer cameras were displaying the Ferrari racing red color as more orange (which it is in reality), while the older cameras were displaying it as proper Ferrari red, so they'll have to go back and reformulate the paint to match the current level of technology.

The quality of Sebring was excellent...that was vastly improved with HD. Can't wait for F1 in true HD.

I thought it was a cluster**** of a race overall. Talk about rust...

Still was happy to see my beloved BMV team on the podium. I hope to see it more in the future, but I suspect that next week the ponies and that other Bavarian auto manufacturer will be solidly up front again.

F1 fans might find this tidbit interesting...

http://blog.ibj.com/thescore/?p=74

I guess I should say something about presentation, since this isn't a motorsport forum....I don't yet have SpeedHD, so it was....blah. :)

I could tell that the newer cameras were displaying the Ferrari racing red color as more orange (which it is in reality), while the older cameras were displaying it as proper Ferrari red, so they'll have to go back and reformulate the paint to match the current level of technology.

Huh? :confused:

What a great race for Bourdais. Shame to get let down with that end of race engine failure. I know that Torro Rossa has a "minardi" stigma still attached to them, but they really are much better than that as Vettel showed last year. I don't think that this will be the last time we see Seabass get points this year.

Austrialian GP was this weekend on Speed-HD. It was 16X9, but not HD.

Austrialian GP was this weekend on Speed-HD. It was 16X9, but not HD.


Not HD but a vast improvement over the 4:3 we got last year.

Huh? :confused:

Ferrari's official red paint for the road cars is called Rosso Corso. Because tv cameras display Rosso Corso differently than it appears in real life, Ferrari created a special red paint for its race cars which has more orange in it. That way it will look like Rosso Corso on tv.

My point was that the new generation of cameras displays the Ferrari racing red as is, while the 4:3 format old cameras in the car and in the pits render the racing red as Rosso Corso. Hopefully, Ferrari will go back and change the paint so it will look correct on the new technology.

The widescreen coverage now adds quite a bit to the viewing experience. And even though it is still SD, I do think the PQ is improved when you flip channels on D* and compare. It does appear a bit more sharp and crisp on SPEED HD vs. SPEED. Looking forward to the rest of the season, off to an exciting start.

Just watched the race last night.

It looked pretty good and is a big improvement over what we got before this year.

I started watching the 12 Hours of Sebring, and it looks great in HD. I was even able to freeze and point out my car parked outside T17. :D

Just watched the race last night.

It looked pretty good and is a big improvement over what we got before this year.

I started watching the 12 Hours of Sebring, and it looks great in HD. I was even able to freeze and point out my car parked outside T17. :D

What was with the bridge over the track at Sebring? It was so eerie (and a bit annoying) to see extremely slow moving vehicles driving on the bridge over extremely fast moving race cars underneath. The bridge looked like an amusement park ride!

What was with the bridge over the track at Sebring? It was so eerie (and a bit annoying) to see extremely slow moving vehicles driving on the bridge over extremely fast moving race cars underneath. The bridge looked like an amusement park ride!That is the only vehicular bridge into what's known as Green Park (the crazy spectator area). The bridge has a rather large incline and is blind going over the top. You have to go slow.

This should be great news regarding F1 in HD: F1 UK coverage returns to the BBC (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65897) With any luck, HD coverage is part of the new Bernie/Beeb contract. Unfortunately, we'll have to wait a year to find out.

This should be great news regarding F1 in HD: F1 UK coverage returns to the BBC (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65897) With any luck, HD coverage is part of the new Bernie/Beeb contract. Unfortunately, we'll have to wait a year to find out.

I do not see anything about HD, so it is no news as far as HD.

I do not see anything about HD, so it is no news as far as HD.

No - and ITV are launching their HD service later this year when freesat launches in the UK.

Ironically - the BBC currently use Alfacam OB resources to cover MotoGP in Europe, and these are, I believe, HD capable - I'm not sure Alfacam have much that isn't HD these days. (Though until this year have been 4:3 SD when they switched to 16:9 SD).

However ITV Sport use OB Resources from BBC Outside Broadcasts (soon to be bought by SIS) which are 16:9 SD...

I would expect that the BBC will be thinking very seriously about how to do F1 in HD - particularly in Europe where it may well not need a London gallery in the transmission chain (though the main BBC Sport gallery in London does have a limited HD path available - as has been used for some Rugby) If the host broadcast coverage is HD I think there is a good chance the BBC will show it in HD - but no guarantees of course...

Also no announcement if the F1 coverage will be produced in-house by the BBC or sub-contracted to an independent producer (a minimum of 25% of BBC programmes have to be commissioned from indies, with only 50% guaranteed to in-house production departments, with the final 25% up for grabs between the two...)

I haven't noticed this problem in this discussion so maybe my setup on my D* DVR was messed up. All of the practice and qualifying rounds of the Australian GP were in 16:9 SD but the race was in 4:3 SD. I'm hunching that for some reason my recorder recorded the race on the Speed channel while it recorded the practices off the SpeedHD channel. Is this what happened?

Jack

FWIW

Maylasian GP practice session looked much worse than the Australian. :(

Must be a host broadcaster issue.

Am I supposed to get Speed in HD on Comcast in Chicago?

Am I supposed to get Speed in HD on Comcast in Chicago?

Speed HD has not been added to any comcast systems yet.

http://www.speedtv.com/article/get-speed-in-hd-today/

The Speed website lists what MSOs carry speed hd

what the hell is up with none of the majors cable cos NOT carrying SpeedHD? We get ****ing animal planet HD, but we don't get Speed HD? W T F!

what the hell is up with none of the majors cable cos NOT carrying SpeedHD? We get ****ing animal planet HD, but we don't get Speed HD? W T F!I figured out over a decade ago that cable isn't really interested in satisfying customers. They assumed they were the only real game in town and acted incompetently and greedily. I think they're still clueless & glad I haven't had to deal with cable for a very long time. My experience with D* is that they have taking care of and satisfying customers figured out, and they've been doing it consistently for the 10 years I've been with them.

Here in St. Louis we have the one of the worst of the whole lot with Charter.

Any idea if and when Dish will start offering Speed in HD?

It's not like they don't have room - just lose some of that crap Voom HD stuff.

Well, Dish is supposedly going to add a bunch of new HD channels in the next few weeks, but Charlie did not list any of the Fox Cable networks (FX-HD, Fox Business HD, Speed-HD, or Fuel-HD) amount those channels. So it looks like Dish and News Corp haven't had their negotations yet. Hopefully when Fox News goes HD, that will get talks going.

But then again, CNN-HD didn't get on the air when TBS-HD did, so I have a hard time making sense of what those suits are thinking.

This is a screen capture from Philips demonstration of F1 in 720p.

This is what we're missing, this is what I want to see. Ecclestone is an idiot.

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/7954/vlcsnap494632pw2.png

It looks like Fox will be doing four races this year. Will they be in HD, SD or SD widescreen?

They will be in SD 16x9
:(

Ecclestone doesn't think HD is important enough yet and feels that widescreen 576i is where it's at right now.

As this screen cap shows F1 will look formidable in HD.

Hopefully they might release the 2008 season in review on Blu-ray.

Anyway, compare that screen cap to this one from Turkey also in 720p which is obviously upscaled.

http://hdtvfeeds.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/24.png

Would be cool that they used those 1080p cameras, broadcast in 1080i, but release their blue rays in 1080p, I would buy them...

Now I want to see a super slow-mo 1080p/i sequence..

I can't wait for it. Here's some more of the Philips screencaps:

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8642/f14je6.jpg

Pits

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5201/f16ph4.jpg

Those are Walllpaper worthy screen caps. They look stunning.

Bah, who wants HD when LQ blurry 16:9 looks so wonderful :rolleyes:

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/6861/formula11080ikh4.th.jpg (http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/6861/formula11080ikh4.jpg)

Now that one really looks good. Where did you get it?

Some of those Philips screencaps look to be from a highly location directed and post-produced HD demo reel - not a live-cut from a real F1 OB

Don't get me wrong - HD will improve things - but beware demo reels being typical HD quality.

Some of those Philips screencaps look to be from a highly location directed and post-produced HD demo reel - not a live-cut from a real F1 OB

Don't get me wrong - HD will improve things - but beware demo reels being typical HD quality.

For sure. I have a 1080p copy of the file (found at racing-underground), and it is 23 Mbps MPEG2 (336 MB file size). Shot at Jerez, in at least two shoots (the cars have Lenovo livery in some shots, blank in others). It's only a demo reel, but it's still really cool. Crossing my fingers for BBC HD in '09.

For sure. I have a 1080p copy of the file (found at racing-underground), and it is 23 Mbps MPEG2 (336 MB file size). Shot at Jerez, in at least two shoots (the cars have Lenovo livery in some shots, blank in others).


Is it 1080/25p or 1080/30p rather than 1080/50p or 1080/60p? If so the motion rendition must be "interesting".

It's only a demo reel, but it's still really cool. Crossing my fingers for BBC HD in '09.

If you are in the US then BBC America HD won't be carrying F1. If you are in the UK (or mainland Europe with a suitable dish :rolleyes: ) you may well be in luck.

I would be surprised if the BBC didn't provide F1 in HD if Bernievision provide it in HD next year. My Magic 8 ball may be useful later this year...

Now that one really looks good. Where did you get it?

I can't recall, it was a message board that offered short clips so I don't know where or what it was used for. I can't even find the video either, only that image I took from it.

Is it 1080/25p or 1080/30p rather than 1080/50p or 1080/60p? If so the motion rendition must be "interesting".

If you are in the US then BBC America HD won't be carrying F1.

It is 1080/25p. There aren't any really fast shots, but I can see that the motion might not be great for a full-field race.

And if the Beeb does get F1 in HD, only way I'd be watching is downloading. It would be on Speed HD over here, but that is only available on DirecTV sat (= $$$ for one channel)

Here is a photo of the cameras in use at Monaco last weekend at the historics (and I assume being used for the GP, this weekend). This one was between the swimming pool and La Rascasse. Same type of camera was in use in Casino Square and elsewhere.

I know nothing about individual cameras, but I'm sure some the experts will be able to identify them.

Richard

Here is a photo of the cameras in use at Monaco last weekend at the historics (and I assume being used for the GP, this weekend). This one was between the swimming pool and La Rascasse. Same type of camera was in use in Casino Square and elsewhere.

I know nothing about individual cameras, but I'm sure some the experts will be able to identify them.

Richard

This looks like LDK 4000 Grass Valley/Thomson cameras. These only output 720p or 1080i. This proves that there is no 1080p used in F1 production. Plus they use a lot od SD cameras like in cars,

I would be surprised if the BBC didn't provide F1 in HD if Bernievision provide it in HD next year.

As soon as Bernie provides it......he's the only missing link in this chain.

Some of those Philips screencaps look to be from a highly location directed and post-produced HD demo reel

That's exactly what I said it was on the first picture, a "Philips demonstration of F1 in high definition"

HD will improve F1 dramatically, even if it's not as pristine as this demonstration.

Right now it's complete bollocks.

Hmmm, makes me wonder if Max Mosely's famous flick is in HD. Whoo hoo! That might be a good replacement for the US Grand Prix this year.

Does anybody know if the Fox feed for the Canadian GP this year be widescreen or no?

This looks like LDK 4000 Grass Valley/Thomson cameras.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10297748#post10297748

Right now it's complete bollocks.

The Speed Channel broadcast from DN looks horrible....and that's being kind.

Does anybody know if the Fox feed for the Canadian GP this year be widescreen or no?
I'd bet $100 that it will be. Fox was Widescreen on the three races that followed Montreal last year and Speed-HD (A fox network) has been widescreen for every race this year. I can't imagine that they'd take a step backwards after such consistency.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10297748#post10297748

ISTR that the quoted article is talking about SIS uplinks - not OB production. In other words - SIS can provide the satellite uplinks of an HD "Bernievision" feed but don't produce the Bernievision feed.

ITV Sport also use SIS OB Production facilities (which were known as BBC Outside Broadcasts until April 1st this year when the BBC finally sold their OB resources) for their local unilateral presentation in Europe - i.e. their in-vision anchor stuff and local graphics and VT replays.

Here is a photo of the cameras in use at Monaco last weekend at the historics (and I assume being used for the GP, this weekend). This one was between the swimming pool and La Rascasse. Same type of camera was in use in Casino Square and elsewhere.

I know nothing about individual cameras, but I'm sure some the experts will be able to identify them.

Richard

Definitely an LDK series model - and I'm pretty certain it is an HD model. I'm not expert enough to tell whether it is a 4000, 6000 or 8000 model. They vary in their support of 1080p and at what frame rates - but given that F1 will be 1080i I don't see why anything more than a 4000 would be required for this, though if the facilities are partially rented in then that supplier may have other clients with 1080p requirements. (1080/25p is not that unusual for some productions in Europe these days - some music concerts are now shot 25p rather than 50i for example)

However if the cameras are owned by Bernievision - or a bespoke set-up built for it - then there may be no need for 1080/25p or 1080/50p facilities.

I found this link.

http://bt2.kaicn.com/html_210221.html

I don't know how torrents and stuff works. Maybe someone who knows how to do this can download it and see. Seems to be a 1080p, 300mb+ file

Kinda seems strange that we can't get F1 races broadcast in HD given the following link.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/06/08/odeon-cinemas-to-play-f1-races-in-hd/

That's exactly the though I had when I saw that.

Kinda seems strange that we can't get F1 races broadcast in HD given the following link.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/06/08/odeon-cinemas-to-play-f1-races-in-hd/

It isn't really in HD--the main picture is still the same 16:9 576i world feed. However, FOM upconverts it to 720p, and puts in the graphics at that resolution. There's a screenshot I've seen of it somewhere (might have been in this thread), and the graphics look great--really sharp, and framed for widescreen.

Edit: found a screenshot, looks from Monza last year: F1 in Cinema 720p50 (http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/4735/snapshot20070910233424fg6.jpg).
Linked from this massive thread at digitalspy.co.uk (http://digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=19146&page=1200).The feed is sent out FTA--this site (http://hdtvfeeds.wordpress.com/category/feeds/sport/motorsport/) seems to post coordinates weekly.
This page (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=17756950) also has some comparison screenshots from Fuji TV's 720p broadcast of Japan 2006.

It still looks pretty damn good on FOX...HD or not, its better than the crap they play on Speed

It still looks pretty damn good on FOX...HD or not, its better than the crap they play on SpeedIf you have Speed HD, it's the same quality as what you get on Fox. In fact, it seemed to me the Fox quality was maybe a bit less than Speed HD from previous races this year.

It makes no sense. If they are going to show the races in HD then obviously they shoot F1 with HD cameras. Oh well not that it matters... Time Warner will obviously never get Speed HD.

I get sick of watching Nascar cars go round in round in glorious HD while the most sophisticated race cars ever get standard def. Actually I swear the crap that Time Warner gives us on Speed is LESS than standard def.

It makes no sense. If they are going to show the races in HD then obviously they shoot F1 with HD cameras. Oh well not that it matters... Time Warner will obviously never get Speed HD.

I get sick of watching Nascar cars go round in round in glorious HD while the most sophisticated race cars ever get standard def. Actually I swear the crap that Time Warner gives us on Speed is LESS than standard def.It's still not HD on Speed. It's standard def widescreen unconverted to HD.

From the head of HDTV at BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/seetha_kumar/):

JdNthLdnN9 and trevorjharris want to know whether Top Gear and Formula One will make it on to BBC HD.

top_gear_polar_adventure.jpg

We showed Top Gear's Polar Challenge in HD; let me know if you caught it. And of course, I'd love to show the series. Who wouldn't? Our team has discussed this and we're talking to Top Gear to understand the specific production challenges. Regarding F1, we hope that this will be available in HD as soon as possible within our new contract, but this depends on demand from other international broadcasters as well as from us."

I wonder what "as soon as possible" means.

I wonder what "as soon as possible" means.

I'll translate for you...."When Bernie gets around to it." Further translation..."When Bernie has blackmailed all the broadcasters into doubling the rights fees."

Topics merged.

I really wish that my DVR would capture both F1 on Speed and Fox. It didn't catch the race this year (it only caught practice and qualifying). I just set the next race manually to record.

I see one comment above about the quality of the Montreal race. Was it pretty decent?

I happened to attend - and it was HOT.

-JR

I really wish that my DVR would capture both F1 on Speed and Fox. It didn't catch the race this year (it only caught practice and qualifying). I just set the next race manually to record.

I see one comment above about the quality of the Montreal race. Was it pretty decent?

I happened to attend - and it was HOT.

-JR

use a keyword search and autorecord.

Done! :)

-JR

For missed races you can always go here:
https://www.racing-underground.com
:)

Is this HD or just an incredibly good upscale? (Sorry to the modem users but I don't now how to thumbnail the links)

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/6347/0926163432orf1hdgerformxc2.jpg

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9056/0926163432orf1hdgerformij2.jpg

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9498/0926163432orf1hdgerformjg5.jpg

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1610/0926163432orf1hdgerformed8.jpg

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1996/0926163432orf1hdgerformjr2.jpg

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/588/0926163432orf1hdgerformdt9.jpg

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/9705/0926163432orf1hdgerformft1.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7856/0926163432orf1hdgerformel7.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1368/0926163432orf1hdgerformum4.jpg

After doing some resizing to PAL resolution I have to say: there is too much detail in those images for them to be PAL upscales. So the F1 HD era has begun and nobody is talking about it?

I did start talking about it a few weeks ago , but they insist it is not HD, but it looks darn freaking good on the 12 foot wide Titan Reference projection.

In addition the Singapore grand prix this weekend is the first one to be conducted at night with Soft artificial lighting specified for seeing every nuance of color..

The ORF HD stuff is accepted to be 720/50p upscaled from 576/50i or 480/60i depending on the territory. It is a very good upscale, from a very good SD source, and is broadcast at a good data rate in H264 by ORF, but it is still accepted to be an upscale. It has caused quite a few people in Europe to get excited about F1 in HD - but it isn't apparently.

Most people in Europe who like F1 and can get ORF HD chose to watch F1 that way as although it isn't HD, it is the best quality feed you can get.

AIUI Bernievision is using HD cameras but in SD mode - or if they are in HD mode the HD feed never leaves the compound. However the SD resulting is very clean, and with minimal SD detail enhancement added, so the upscaled version looks as good as it can do. (If HD content is downconverted to SD and upconverted back up to HD, it almost always looks better than stuff shot native SD, particularly if the SD signal has had minimal or no compression.)

For those who wondered who or what ORF is - ORF is the Austrian state broadcaster (which like SVT HD, uses the EBU recommended 720/50p mode), kind of the Austrian equivalent of RAI (Italy), TVE (Spain), SVT (Sweden), NRK (Norway), ARD/ZDF (Germany), the BBC (UK) etc.

BTW - PAL is not the same as digital component 576/50i... (PAL is a legacy composite encoding format - now mainly used for broadcast - and is used in both 576/50i and 480/60i territories, and with three different chroma sub-carrier frequencies, and thus differing chroma bandwiths) Some people (including DVD manufacturers) continue with the sloppy nomenclature that PAL = 576/50i digital component. It doesn't...

I'm talking specifically about Singapore. Previous ORF broadcasts were clearly upscales but this is different. Looks quite obvious to me. I'll upload a short sample clip.

Clip: http://rapidshare.com/files/148797554/orf_f1_hd_clip.ts

Monza did look great too.

Monza did look great too.

Didn't see it. Any screenshots, clips?

Clip: http://rapidshare.com/files/148797554/orf_f1_hd_clip.ts

Just watched that clip - still looks like a good SD upconversion from 576/50i to me.

Look at the heavy aperture correction/detail on the white track markings (i.e. the black edges that they have) which appears very SD, there also appear to be SD de-interlacing artefacts on some of the fast motion (which shouldn't be there on a 720/50p native HD capture or that visible on a 720/50p from 1080/50i cross-convert) There is also no fine HD detail.

There is also ringing on the camera edges - which implies analogue triax cabling is in use. This COULD be used for HD (both Sony and GrassValley/Thomson/Philips cameras can use triax for HD) but wouldn't be present if fibred cameras were in use - unless there are analogue interconnects downstream (which is unlikely)

Just watched that clip - still looks like a good SD upconversion from 576/50i to me.

Look at the heavy aperture correction/detail on the white track markings (i.e. the black edges that they have) which appears very SD, there also appear to be SD de-interlacing artefacts on some of the fast motion (which shouldn't be there on a 720/50p native HD capture or that visible on a 720/50p from 1080/50i cross-convert) There is also no fine HD detail.

There is also ringing on the camera edges - which implies analogue triax cabling is in use. This COULD be used for HD (both Sony and GrassValley/Thomson/Philips cameras can use triax for HD) but wouldn't be present if fibred cameras were in use - unless there are analogue interconnects downstream (which is unlikely)


I agree it is clearly SD, but looks better than previous races, probably because qualifying was at night, so contrast is better. I can't believe that somebody would mistake this for real HD, you can see in these captures lack of detail that would be present in HD.

Just watched that clip - still looks like a good SD upconversion from 576/50i to me.

Look at the heavy aperture correction/detail on the white track markings (i.e. the black edges that they have) which appears very SD, there also appear to be SD de-interlacing artefacts on some of the fast motion (which shouldn't be there on a 720/50p native HD capture or that visible on a 720/50p from 1080/50i cross-convert) There is also no fine HD detail.

There is also ringing on the camera edges - which implies analogue triax cabling is in use. This COULD be used for HD (both Sony and GrassValley/Thomson/Philips cameras can use triax for HD) but wouldn't be present if fibred cameras were in use - unless there are analogue interconnects downstream (which is unlikely)

You make some good points. Maybe I am underestimating what you can get out of a 576i source. Somehow though I still find it hard to believe that the difference to a typical 576i broadcast can be so huge just because of some resizing and sharpening.

I can't believe that somebody would mistake this for real HD, you can see in these captures lack of detail that would be present in HD.

I never thought it was a great HD image, just slightly too good for an SD source.

If you have seen clips of a Nascar or other series that was run at night you will know that we are still missing tons of detail. This Singapore race in actual HD would be the bomb. But we aren't there yet.

Here is hoping that when the Beeb takes over next year that it will lead to HD over in North America as well.

Any idea where to get Nascar clips? I've seen some crappy reencodes but never a real full quality stream.

It looks like ORF is using the F1 in Cinema feed, which has graphics rendered in 720p, but the video is the same 576i. I didn't know any broadcasters were using the Cinema feed, but maybe this will become more common in anticipation of HD.
Now that FOM is sending out a 720p feed (that is being used by more than the Cinema), could we see actual 720p video at Fuji (where Fuji TV does the production in HD)?

You make some good points. Maybe I am underestimating what you can get out of a 576i source. Somehow though I still find it hard to believe that the difference to a typical 576i broadcast can be so huge just because of some resizing and sharpening.


If you compare a 576/50i signal, sourced at broadcast quality, and upconverted to HD with a decent upconverter, like a Quasar, and broadcast at a decent HD bitrate in H264, and compare that to a 576/50i source, backhauled in 576/50i, broadcast in highly compressed SD MPEG2, and you'll see one hell of a difference.

Not all 576/50i is the same - just as not all 480/60i is the same. There is a potential slight benefit in spatial resolution from 576/50i over 480/60i when upconverting (though equally 480/60i has improved temporal resolution), however in reality issues like the level of detail enhancement wound in and other camera set-up issues will have more of an effect. (PAL 4.43 composite usually delivers sharper chroma than NTSC 3.58 composite, though good PAL decoders are more complex than good NTSC ones - however PAL and NTSC are not really issues in modern TV production - as everything should stay in the component digital domain)

If the source video is well looked after - and well lit floodlit coverage, where the lighting is uniform, controlled and much lower contrast than varying sunlight/shade (and video cameras deal better with low contrast scenes than very high contrast ones) - then the results can look very good, particularly if decent cameras are used, and the video is handled well by those controlling and setting up the cameras.

If you have seen clips of a Nascar or other series that was run at night you will know that we are still missing tons of detail. This Singapore race in actual HD would be the bomb. But we aren't there yet.

Here is hoping that when the Beeb takes over next year that it will lead to HD over in North America as well.

Whilst the BBC might be lobbying for HD - or at least hoping for it - Bernie and his operation will have the final say.

Publicly people in BBC Sport and at BBC HD have said they are discussing it - but nothing more concrete than that...

It will be interesting to see how it pans out next year.

I saved a Premiere rerun and directly compared some frames to ORF: I do now believe that the level of detail is actually close enough for both to be from SD source. As you said sneals, it's more a case of one broadcaster making the most out of it and the other one trying to destroy as much quality as he can.

Here's one frame for comparison.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1458/4orfgg4.jpg
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/228/4premierefb9.jpg

The top pic looks like it is very heavy on the edge enhancement, the bottom one looks like the brightness (black level) is slightly to high leading to a washed out pic.

How did the Singapore GP look on SPEED HD? Or are those screen caps above from SPEED?

Looks like the beeb won't be doing the races in HD this year. I wonder if that means no for Speed as well.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/01/15/bbc-wont-air-formula-1-in-hd-this-season/

The Engadget article is kinda misleading--BBC isn't showing F1 in HD because Formula One Management (who produce the F1 world feed) aren't producing it in HD. It isn't really the BBC's (or Speed's) call, since they don't actually produce (most of) the races. There were rumors that FOM would produce a few races in HD this year, I guess it could still happen.

But to whet everyone's appetite, someone at Digital Spy posted a 500MB clip of Fuji TV's HD broadcast of the 2007 Japanese GP (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=29671677&postcount=2173). Yes, I lied above--FOM doesn't produce all of the races. Monaco and Japan are still done by host broadcasters, and Fuji TV has had a special deal in place since 2006 to do an HD broadcast. Unfortunately, it doesn't leave Japan.

Yep - the Engadget HD article implies that the BBC have decided not to broadcast F1 in HD, whereas in reality it has no HD source to broadcast. F1 will only be broadcast in HD when the F1 operation decides to provide an HD feed.

Fingers crossed for 2010...

(But then Bernie could just get up one morning and decide to do F1 in HD...)

*Sigh* I wish Fuji Television did all the broadcasts and sent out an HD feed because that video is... *drool*

*Sigh* I wish Fuji Television did all the broadcasts and sent out an HD feed because that video is... *drool*

Fuji broadcast does not look like HD. It simply looks like good SD upconvert to me.

The Engadget article is kinda misleading--BBC isn't showing F1 in HD because Formula One Management (who produce the F1 world feed) aren't producing it in HD.

Actually you have that wrong. Bernie is willing to give it to any one who wants it in HD. The problem is he wants more money for it than any one can afford.

Actually you have that wrong. Bernie is willing to give it to any one who wants it in HD. The problem is he wants more money for it than any one can afford.

That is NOT my understanding of the situation, having spoken to people who are producing the UK F1 programmes this year. An HD feed is simply not available as I understand it - and that was pretty much straight from the horses mouth.

Why can't NASCAR productions use minimal graphics like F1?

If I'm just flipping through and I find an F1 race on, usually it'll get my attention for a while.

That is NOT my understanding of the situation, having spoken to people who are producing the UK F1 programmes this year. An HD feed is simply not available as I understand it - and that was pretty much straight from the horses mouth.Bernie has said in the past he doesn't see the point of doing F1 in HD since so few worldwide have access to it. Meanwhile, just about every other major sport is taping in HD. :rolleyes:

Bernie has said in the past he doesn't see the point of doing F1 in HD since so few worldwide have access to it. Meanwhile, just about every other major sport is taping in HD. :rolleyes:

Or live - I don't watch many sports taped... ;) And those that are non-live are often these days "disced"!

Or live - I don't watch many sports taped... ;) And those that are non-live are often these days "disced"!Taped, live, whatever...my point is that just about all major sports we get are in HD. Race series that are much smaller than F1 (e.g. Speed World Challenge) get the HD treatment.

Taped, live, whatever...my point is that just about all major sports we get are in HD. Race series that are much smaller than F1 (e.g. Speed World Challenge) get the HD treatment.

That's because Speed World Challenge is only going to Speed, whereas Formula 1 goes to the entire world.

Taped, live, whatever...my point is that just about all major sports we get are in HD. Race series that are much smaller than F1 (e.g. Speed World Challenge) get the HD treatment.

Yep - but how many Global sports events held outside the US do you get - and how many in HD? Presumably Speed is a US-domestic production just for the Speed Network - and isn't an operation that has to move between continents week-by-week?

The number is increasing - Olympics, some Tennis, some Athletics, some Soccer.

Outside the US we also get some Rugby and some Cricket in HD (not sure the market for HD Rugby and Cricket is that huge inside the US)

I think the point is that whilst most domestic national sports coverage in the US is HD - not all international events are yet covered in HD.

The US and Japan are heavily HD, the UK, some parts of Europe and Australia are somewhat HD, but large portions of Europe, lots of mainland Asia and most of the Middle East is still SD...

Europe, the Middle East, South America and the Far East are the major F1 regions - North America is not considered hugely significant for F1 at the moment (hence the demise of any North American GPs in 2009) - and whilst HD is significant in North America (and increasingly the UK, France, Germany and Aus) it is less so elsewhere in F1 heartlands.

any news on HD for the '09 season of Formula One?

any news on HD for the '09 season of Formula One?

Try reading the previous page of the topic.

If ITV had kept the rights to F1 I wonder if we would have had it in HD this year.

http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/2007030730594/information-technology-archive/investment-in-mk-after-f1-tv-deal-is-secured.html
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2007/05/13/f1-will-get-hd-coverage-this-year/

If ITV had kept the rights to F1 I wonder if we would have had it in HD this year.
Moot point.

By the way, sneals2000 knows of what he speaks.

Topic title edited, again....

SPEED is listing (http://www.speedtv.com/programs/formula-one-on-speed/) both the Australian GP and the Malaysian GP as HD on their site. Can we safely assume that means upconverted widescreen SD? Not that we haven't seen falsely advertised high definition programming before, right? :rolleyes:

SPEED is listing (http://www.speedtv.com/programs/formula-one-on-speed/) both the Australian GP and the Malaysian GP as HD on their site. Can we safely assume that means upconverted widescreen SD?Yes.

Topic title edited, again....

But this is most confusing. When I saw this topic I went to the first post, saw "2009" in the title, saw that the posts were from 2005, and didn't see any "Last Edited" information.

SPEED is listing (http://www.speedtv.com/programs/formula-one-on-speed/) both the Australian GP and the Malaysian GP as HD on their site. Can we safely assume that means upconverted widescreen SD? Not that we haven't seen falsely advertised high definition programming before, right? :rolleyes:

Definitely. All F1 produced GP coverage will only have 16:9 SD host feeds available. Confirmed by BBC on their HD blogs etc.

The only exception that I am aware of is Japan - where Fuji TV are host broadcaster and produce in HD for domestic broadcast only. The host feed for other broadcasters remains 16:9 SD. (I think Monaco is the only other GP that has a non-F1 host - and that is SD)

Rumblings of HD for 2010.

But hey - at least in the UK the BBC have got the rights back from ITV, so we won't have annoying commercial breaks, and will have a decent interactive TV service to complement the main BBC One broadcasts. (And BBC One on satellite is full-SD 720x576 at a reasonable data rate rather than ITV1 which is SD-lite 544x576 and compressed to lego-bricks)

Now if only Comcast would add SpeedHD :(

Now if only Comcast would add SpeedHD :(

They have added it, in select areas.

They have added it, in select areas.
My area is never selected. :(

The local channel here has thankfully taken a decent feed (although with the idiotic local commentary team) with 16:9 F1 watermark. How is the one SPEED has? It is also DD5.1 which is good to finally hear.

I'm watching F1 practice now (recorded this morning) and it is most definitely crappy SD widescreen. We've been watching the 12 Hours of Sebring this week -- which is in HD -- and the difference is night and day.

Oh well, I like ALMS better anyway (and attended Sebring last week). The drivers there don't need diapers and pacifiers, and are grateful to the fans that come to watch them.

Ugh the sound quality on SPEED HD for the practice session was awful, couldn't hear the track noise unless you wanted the commentators to blow out your windows. The commercials were also louder than the practice session.. it was just a bad experience all around.

Ugh the sound quality on SPEED HD for the practice session was awful

Shame that is the case - I heard today that Australia was the first country to get 5.1 audio for the TV broadcast. It is great to have this and the proper graphics, not the 4:3 safe rubbish that is normally shown.

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5968/2009melbournef1.th.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5968/2009melbournef1.jpg)

Now to bring on HD...

Edit: I did find it amusing checking out how it looks on Analogue - they cropped it to 14:9 yet my older TV cut off the times on the left. I hope they do a 16:9 broadcast next time rather than dumb it down for us digital viewers.

Ahah! I was wondering what was up with the graphics on Speed in SD on E* this morning, they switched to a 4:3 safe feed about halfway through Q1, so I guess they're doing separate feeds for 16x9 and 4:3 now and Speed was just cropping 16x9 for the SD channel until they realized it. Anyone with Speed HD notice if the graphics stayed 4:3 unsafe the whole time? Sure would have liked that last year when I had D*...

Ahah! I was wondering what was up with the graphics on Speed in SD on E* this morning, they switched to a 4:3 safe feed about halfway through Q1, so I guess they're doing separate feeds for 16x9 and 4:3 now and Speed was just cropping 16x9 for the SD channel until they realized it. Anyone with Speed HD notice if the graphics stayed 4:3 unsafe the whole time? Sure would have liked that last year when I had D*...

I think there must either be two 16:9 feeds or a separate data feed allowing broadcasters to add their own graphics.

The BBC 16:9 SD feed had 4:3 safe graphics. (Many 16:9 SD broadcasters in Europe broadcast 16:9 sporting events in 4:3 centre cut, rather than the 14:9 letterbox or 16:9 letterbox used for other genres, on their analogue SD outlets)

Anyone with Speed HD notice if the graphics stayed 4:3 unsafe the whole time? Sure would have liked that last year when I had D*...

I just finished watching qualifying. The graphics switched from 16:9 to 4:3 safe with 2:25 left in Q1 and stayed that way for the remainder of the broadcast.

Well I've sobered up, got the caffeinated drinks cooling, popcorn ready...come on 12:30 AM (central).

Guess the timing ended up worse for US viewers in the end. We have the race live here at 5pm and it is looking like a nice day around the track. Next time it might be even later with talks of a night race still going on. Looks like the 5am Canadian/US races are going to be something you will also have to get used to.

Ah well, with only one race in the western hemisphere (thanks Bernie!) I think those of us especially on the east coast who have to get our beauty sleep are used to DVRing most of the races :)

I am in USA, I paid my service provider - Verision - for SPEED HD channel just for F1. I am disapointed I am not getting the product I am paying for.
Bernie is a good businessman. If he says there is no sense in HD becasue most of europe is not HD, then that may be true. If we write all teh sponsors that we are not buying there products they may suggest to Bernie that HD does make sense. Well Bernie may just agree.
Do we know if F1 is not recorded in HD in the first place?
or is the signal just not transmitted in HD?
The compression artifacts are terrible even for SD.
Cheers,
Jim

No where does Speed adverstise F1 in HD. Don't know why you'd think you're paying for F1 HD.

The F1 television package is a Eurpean based production. Speed provides their own audio commentary over their pictures. Peter Windsor is Speed's on the scene guy and he reports from the grid during pre-race. That's the only at the track footage Speed provides. During the race you'll hear his and the studio guys' audio only.

Don't know who they'll get to replace him if the US Grand Prix team works out.

Do we know if F1 is not recorded in HD in the first place?


The only race we know that is covered in HD is the Japanese GP (which Fuji TV can apparently broadcast in HD locally) AIUI F1 host coverage (other than in Monaco and Japan) is produced by F1 not local broadcasters these days - though they may use some local facilities at some locations. My understanding is that some of the F1 kit is HD-capable, and I wouldn't be surprised if some internal trials have been done in HD.

My understanding is that the on-boards have switched systems recently, from one requiring helicopter reception to round-track diversity COFDM, and that these cameras and circuits are SD-only.

Whether any races (other than in Japan) are covered in HD internally is a good question. What is clear is that this feed is not made available to anyone for broadcast.


or is the signal just not transmitted in HD?


It isn't a case of Speed not picking up an HD feed, it isn't an option for them, or any other broadcast rights holder currently.

The best feed currently available is SD 16:9.


The compression artifacts are terrible even for SD.


That IS a Speed backhaul issue I suspect - I'd imagine they are backhauling in SD. If they are showing live unilateral grid presentation but have studio commentary from the US I suspect they are backhauling a unilateral (the Speed on-site presentation) and a multilateral (the F1 host feed) - rather than paying for on-site production facilities (two circuits may be cheaper)?

The pictures from Melbourne on BBC One looked pretty good for SD - with only the usual SD compression artefacts, and nothing additional. I suspect the BBC backhaul at a decent SD bitrate (24Mbs is what the EBU recommend for SD MPEG2 sports links - and it wouldn't surprise me if the BBC used that standard rate)

No where does Speed adverstise F1 in HD. Don't know why you'd think you're paying for F1 HD.

http://www.speedtv.com/programs/formula-one-on-speed/

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=138281&d=1238419056

You guys entirely sure it was SD when they were showing the 16:9 graphics? It looked markedly clearer to me during quali when they had the proper graphics.

Interesting (to me) note: it seems that when they had the 16:9 graphics up during quali the SD folks couldn't see any graphics at all. So, one feed for both SD and HD from Speed, it seems -- at least for F1.

You guys entirely sure it was SD when they were showing the 16:9 graphics? It looked markedly clearer to me during quali when they had the proper graphics.

Interesting (to me) note: it seems that when they had the 16:9 graphics up during quali the SD folks couldn't see any graphics at all. So, one feed for both SD and HD from Speed, it seems -- at least for F1.The only thing that's in HD is Peter Windsor's camera guy in the paddock for the pre race show. If you think any of the rest was HD, then I can only think to say you are in for a pleasant surprise when you actually do get to see it HD. I don't think that'll happen anytime soon (i.e. this year).

Speed did the 12 Hours of Sebring in HD. That was a substantially better picture than the F1 artifact-ridden crap.

http://www.speedtv.com/programs/formula-one-on-speed/

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=138281&d=1238419056

Nice catch. Clearly an error and worth an email to speed.

You guys entirely sure it was SD when they were showing the 16:9 graphics? It looked markedly clearer to me during quali when they had the proper graphics.

Interesting (to me) note: it seems that when they had the 16:9 graphics up during quali the SD folks couldn't see any graphics at all. So, one feed for both SD and HD from Speed, it seems -- at least for F1.

Almost certainly Speed are backhauling just the 16:9 SD feed and upconverting this to 16:9 HD for Speed HD and centre-cutting to 4:3 for Speed SD. If the graphics weren't 4:3 safe - then SD viewers will have had an interesting time.

The BBC seem to have a 16:9 SD feed with 4:3 safe graphics. However they have a large on-site operation.

The Beeb are running with 2 on-site commentators - Jonathan Legard and Martin Brundle, 2 reporters - Ted Kravitz and Lee Mackenzie, a presenter - Jake Humphrey, and 2 co-presenters - David Coulthard and Eddie Jordan with VT replays, on-site 2D and 3D graphics, on-site edits etc. They don't go via a studio or control room in London - they work directly to the BBC One/BBC Interactive playout area with the entire show coming from the OB at the race.

I suspect there are a number of feeds that F1 will provide (4:3 SD, 16:9 SD with 4:3 safe graphics, 16:9 SD with 16:9 safe graphics etc.) so it is a case of picking up the right one. If you are on-site then I suspect ensuring you have the right one is easier.

My understanding is that there is no HD feed available for broadcast this season. (Whether there is a preview on-site - I don't know)

The BBC are showing Practice live on the Red Button interactive TV service on OTA, Satellite and Cable, with Qualifying live on BBC One, and the main Race live on BBC One, with an after-race "fan forum" on the Red Button interactive service. All with no commercial breaks obviously. For the races that are early-morning for us we get a pretty full re-run during the day (Melbourne was live at 6am and then repeated 1pm) and then highlights on BBC Three at 7pm. They're taking this really seriously (BBC One isn't an all sports network - it is the most popular OTA network we have in the UK - just - it runs sport, news, drama, documentary, kids etc.).

They also quite an extensive website : http://www.bbc.co.uk/f1

and their main presenter/anchor, Jake, is blogging as he goes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/jakehumphrey/

The only thing that's in HD is Peter Windsor's camera guy in the paddock for the pre race show...

Are you sure?? It doesn't seem like it'd make much sense to do that?

Are you sure?? It doesn't seem like it'd make much sense to do that?It makes enough sense. That's the part Speed produces. Everything else is produced by FOM, which only provides SD feeds.

Okay my fellow F-1 fans Sneals 2000 mentioned "Martin Brundle". Do any of you remember when he flipped his car at the Start of the Austrailian GP?;) Pretty horrific crash he walked away from.

http://www.speedtv.com/programs/formula-one-on-speed/

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=138281&d=1238419056
Check the forum over there. It has been noticed. http://www.speedtv.com/forums/viewthread/414293/P10/

It makes enough sense. That's the part Speed produces. Everything else is produced by FOM, which only provides SD feeds.
Watching this weekends coverage, it sure doesn't look like Peter's camera is sending out any HD.

Some of you should join this conversation: http://www.speedtv.com/forums/viewthread/414293/P10/

I was in that thread. Its just a people complaining about the HD logo on Speed's website. We all know that the F1 races are not in HD. Well all know that they originate from that 576i european pal widescreen format. Well all know that is better than 480i 4:3, but worse than 720p. They only thing that causes if problem is that no one knows what to cal it.

Speed wants to show that its more than just the SD broadcast stretched so they use the HD logo that they have. Purist know that it isn't really 720p, so they call it out.

I for one know that its not HD, but I like it better than the 480i 4:3 on a bit starved dbs SD channel.

Just thought I would mention that in the midst of all this HD talk, there is an exciting F1 season upon us with Ross Braun and some others attempting to dethrone the Ferrari and McLerand camps.
You guys should pay attention or you might miss a good show this year.

I was in that thread. Its just a people complaining about the HD logo on Speed's website. We all know that the F1 races are not in HD. Well all know that they originate from that 576i european pal widescreen format. Well all know that is better than 480i 4:3, but worse than 720p. They only thing that causes if problem is that no one knows what to cal it.

Speed wants to show that its more than just the SD broadcast stretched so they use the HD logo that they have. Purist know that it isn't really 720p, so they call it out.

I for one know that its not HD, but I like it better than the 480i 4:3 on a bit starved dbs SD channel.
Speed HD does not stretch the picture. They show widescreen SD upconverted to 720p. It is not better than 16x9 480i, because of lower frame/field rate. It is called upconverted SD for those that do not know what to call it. Also when races that are in countries with 60Hz like Japan or Brazil, FOM feed originates as 16x9 480i/60Hz. We have covered this many times and it keeps coming back every year. It is getting old for me.

Just thought I would mention that in the midst of all this HD talk, there is an exciting F1 season upon us with Ross Braun and some others attempting to dethrone the Ferrari and McLerand camps.
You guys should pay attention or you might miss a good show this year.

Yep - a very exciting start to the season. Brawn GP have surprised quite a few people!

The rain at Sepang was amazingly heavy - the on-boards looked like they were driving through a washing machine.

Schumacher is back!!!!
http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/story/?id=286113

And BMW is gone. (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/f1/news/story?id=4363004)

MUNICH -- BMW is pulling out of Formula One at the end of this season, the second carmaker to leave the series within a year.

And BMW is gone. (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/f1/news/story?id=4363004)

MUNICH -- BMW is pulling out of Formula One at the end of this season, the second carmaker to leave the series within a year.I consider that good news because F1 has become a stupid joke with boring races, and now BMW will give more focus to sports- and touring-car racing, which is what the brand is about. I've attended the USGP several times and ALMS races numerous times. I'd take the latter over the former without hesitation or thought.

When I was at the 12 Hours of Sebring this year, I saw (and met) Mario Theissen in the Rahal-Letterman M3 GTR paddock. That was a mere week before the F1 season opened in Aussie. I wonder if he saw the writing on the wall.

I consider that good news because F1 has become a stupid joke with boring races....


Agree. First Honda, now BMW pulling out. Interested to see what will happen in F1's future.

Racetripper -- Fantastic photos on your site.

schumacher is back!!!!
http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/story/?id=286113

wow!

Agree. First Honda, now BMW pulling out. Interested to see what will happen in F1's future.

Racetripper -- Fantastic photos on your site.Glad you like the photos. Im trying to find time to load up a bunch more.

Watching the qualifying on Speed HD this morning brought to mind two questions I have always been interested in...

Many of the cars now carry HD in car cameras and even though its shown as an upconvert here, the picture quality is discernably better from those cameras.

How does the signal path get to us though. I assume the source is 576i and it ends up on Speed as 720p. So is it downconverted to 480i for transmittal to the US, then upconverted to 720p before transmission, or is the 576i preserved and then upconverted directly?

Secondly, I am always impressed by the 'highlight packages' that are put together and shown at the end of most sports shows - they must be assembled pretty much in real time - is there a particular workflow to do that, or how is it done - both 'artistically' and 'technically' (ie is it editted together as they go, or do they simply tag certain pieces of the action and assemble at the end)?

Thanks for any insight

Richard

Topics merged.

Watching the qualifying on Speed HD this morning brought to mind two questions I have always been interested in...

Many of the cars now carry HD in car cameras and even though its shown as an upconvert here, the picture quality is discernably better from those cameras.

How does the signal path get to us though. I assume the source is 576i and it ends up on Speed as 720p. So is it downconverted to 480i for transmittal to the US, then upconverted to 720p before transmission, or is the 576i preserved and then upconverted directly?

Secondly, I am always impressed by the 'highlight packages' that are put together and shown at the end of most sports shows - they must be assembled pretty much in real time - is there a particular workflow to do that, or how is it done - both 'artistically' and 'technically' (ie is it editted together as they go, or do they simply tag certain pieces of the action and assemble at the end)?

Thanks for any insight

Richard

You may want to read through recent comments in this topic.

Did anyone else experience this? The Italian Grand Prix on my DirecTV DVR came through with absolutely no sound (digital and analog outputs).
I realize that only a couple of you out there actually watch F1, but did anyone else notice this?

Did anyone else experience this? The Italian Grand Prix on my DirecTV DVR came through with absolutely no sound (digital and analog outputs).
I realize that only a couple of you out there actually watch F1, but did anyone else notice this?

I watch SpeedTV in SD on DirecTV (channel somewhere in the 600's; I TiVo all that stuff so once I have Season Passes set up I don't really need to remember the channel).

Anyway, in SD, recorded on a DirecTiVo, both the video and the audio were "fine" (or at least as good as could be expected given the amount of compression that DirecTV has).

Audio was fine on my DVR

No problem here watching a recording in HD on Dish...

I didn't see or hear any problems with my DirectTV connection.

Many of the cars now carry HD in car cameras and even though its shown as an upconvert here, the picture quality is discernably better from those cameras.According to the info we have been given in this thread, that is not true. Besides, it would seem to me that the camera systems in each car would have to be exactly the same to be fair, since this is weight and volume they are all required to carry.

Doesn't each F1 car carry more than one camera? What would be the massive increase in the sheer volume of transmitted data if all the in-car cameras on the track were switched to HD? Could this be a problem?

Since a rather large percentage of the race coverage is from the in-car cameras, that is probably one more excuse for not providing full HD broadcasts.

Does eventually having an F-1 HD feed on Speed depend upon Bernie's greed?

Since a rather large percentage of the race coverage is from the in-car cameras, that is probably one more excuse for not providing full HD broadcasts.Not really, since the technology is readily available due to NASCAR use of it.

Does eventually having an F-1 HD feed on Speed depend upon Bernie's greed?

Unfortunately almost everything in F-1 is dependent on Bernie's greed.

According to the info we have been given in this thread, that is not true.

According to Peter Windsor, on air, two races ago - he mentioned that FOM now had much better cameras in several cars. Then there were reports (on Speed TVs website), that FOM now had a total of 7 HD in-car cameras.

Thats not saying they are transmitting HD, since they are clearly not doing so. But they have upgraded equipment, which provides a noticeably better image and, hopefully, they will go HD sometime soon...

Besides, it would seem to me that the camera systems in each car would have to be exactly the same to be fair, since this is weight and volume they are all required to carry.
If the newer equipment is heavier or bulkier, they could easily add weight or volume to the older equipment to make it fair for all the cars. Easy fix. The problem with making anything bulkier is that packaging on most modern formula cars, F1 in particular, is extremely tight. There's barely room for the nut behind the wheel. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, if the size of the camera pod has to be increased to accomodate HD cameras, the aerodynamicists will have a say. Everyone has to carry the same pod so that everyone has the same aero penalty (or benefit).

According to the info we have been given in this thread, that is not true. Besides, it would seem to me that the camera systems in each car would have to be exactly the same to be fair, since this is weight and volume they are all required to carry.

Doesn't each F1 car carry more than one camera? What would be the massive increase in the sheer volume of transmitted data if all the in-car cameras on the track were switched to HD? Could this be a problem?

Since a rather large percentage of the race coverage is from the in-car cameras, that is probably one more excuse for not providing full HD broadcasts.

There was some speculation (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=35447612&postcount=816) on a UK coverage thread about the cameras:

Gigawave announced today the technology for HD onboards. As normal FOM don't get mentioned but we do know that it is gigawave technology that is used by tem.

from IBC daily news:


Gigawave in pole position

Wireless specialist Gigawave has added to its motorsport package with a tiny, new on-board HD 1080i camera, with a 2/3-inch sensor and very wide angle lens (3.5mm), plus a hand-held controller.
"This is the first time Gigawave has produced its own cameras," explained marcoms manager David Earl, and it has tried to make it as easy as possible to control without disturbing the race team.
The new Gigascope handheld telemetry unit that goes with it allows users to set up each camera without having to plug in to make changes. It includes a low-power microwave transmitter/receiver, so that users can check the pictures. A racing car can have two or three cameras, so the unit allows you to switch them remotely.
Gigawave systems are being used for Moto GP motorcycle racing, A1 GP, FAI GT and the Superleague Formula, for which it has installed a new portable receive unit that can access up to eight antennae and combine the SD or HD signals from each to create the best possible pictures.
There can be 20-plus channels in one unit (as it uses for Moto GP). "This is pretty much state of the art. It's essentially a diversity receiver, but with maximum ratio combining," Earl explained.

The HD cameras that FOM has been testing look obviously better than the old ones. I especially see the better color fidelity (like the Brawn neon green and ING orange) and the resolution (trackside banners and team logos are much clearer). Even if the final product is 576i, it's worth it.

I had heard that F1 had switched from helicopter links to trackside diversity digital links last year or this year for their on-boards, and that they used SD digital circuits.

I guess :

1. They could be using HD on-boards and SD links just to see how the HD cameras fare?

2. They could be using HD on-boards and have upgraded HD links as well for them? As encoders improve the bitrate required for HD is reducing all the time.

(For all we know they could be running some races in HD - other than Japan which is in HD anyway on Fuji TV - and providing SD downconverted feeds to the outside world. They're quite a secretive bunch in F1 TV...)

Does anybody have a invitation code for Racing-Underground?
Im dying to get on the site. I'm willing to give 20$ by Paypal.

email me, kern@meublesdp.com

Thanks

Just got the Oct issue of F1 Racing. There is a little blurb in there about FOM possibly using the Abu Dhabi as a test HD broadcast in preparation for a full season of HD next year. The blurb states the arrival of on-board HD cameras as roadblock that's been removed.

Just got the Oct issue of F1 Racing. There is a little blurb in there about FOM possibly using the Abu Dhabi as a test HD broadcast in preparation for a full season of HD next year. The blurb states the arrival of on-board HD cameras as roadblock that's been removed.

Wow! Been monitoring this thread since January 2005. Could it be that we might be almost there?

I'm watching the Suzuka practice round and it looks spectacular...well, decidedly better than every other telecast this season. Unfortunately it's raining, so no one's on the track...thus no onboards. But PQ overall is much, much improved from the earlier rounds. I don't wanna jinx it by calling it HD, but...WOW!!!

Forecast looks good for race day (fingers crossed)!

Historically, hasn't the Japanese GP been the "odd one out" in HD terms?

AIUI Fuji TV are host broadcasters (not FOM) and are allowed to cover in HD for domestic audiences only. Thus the Japanese GP has been HD in Japan only for a number of years? I think this is because many Japanese channels are effectively all-HD (many of the ones in my Tokyo hotel room seemed to be.) so SD coverage would really stick out and be even more unacceptable than in the US and Europe?

(The other GP that is non-FOM host broadcast is Monaco I believe - though that is SD)

For an upconversion, the Brazilian GP looks pretty darn good today.

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/10/09/abu-dhabi-gp-to-be-seen-in-hd/

As usual, the Japanese GP was produced by Fuji TV in 1080i HD, and the HD was broadcast only in Japan. There's a sample here (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=T8M8VAU6), no racing but still looks really good. The whole file is 13GB.

And I personally don't think Abu Dhabi will be broadcast in HD. It seems like the only sources are paddock whispers and that note in F1 Racing, and everyone else is saying it won't happen. FOM might produce Abu Dhabi in HD (as a test in preparation for next year and to give the Abu Dhabi organizers some pretty video to show off), but I expect the world feed will still be 576i50 as usual.

As usual, the Japanese GP was produced by Fuji TV in 1080i HD, and the HD was broadcast only in Japan. There's a sample here (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=T8M8VAU6), no racing but still looks really good. The whole file is 13GB.

And I personally don't think Abu Dhabi will be broadcast in HD. It seems like the only sources are paddock whispers and that note in F1 Racing, and everyone else is saying it won't happen. FOM might produce Abu Dhabi in HD (as a test in preparation for next year and to give the Abu Dhabi organizers some pretty video to show off), but I expect the world feed will still be 576i50 as usual.

Yes - I suspect very few on-site broadcasters would have 1080/50i kit available to deal with local production of a 1080i feed even if it did magically become available at the 11th hour... Some might be able to backhaul it separately and do a clever sub mix operation back at HQ - but the cost of that - and the logistics of mounting it would probably preclude it.

Most of these rumours seem to have come from the local provider who are providing FOM with production facilities to promote their new HD truck...

As usual, the Japanese GP was produced by Fuji TV in 1080i HD, and the HD was broadcast only in Japan. There's a sample here (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=T8M8VAU6), no racing but still looks really good. The whole file is 13GB.

And I personally don't think Abu Dhabi will be broadcast in HD. It seems like the only sources are paddock whispers and that note in F1 Racing, and everyone else is saying it won't happen. FOM might produce Abu Dhabi in HD (as a test in preparation for next year and to give the Abu Dhabi organizers some pretty video to show off), but I expect the world feed will still be 576i50 as usual.

I just looked at that sample clip and it is defintely not HD. It clearly is upconverted 16:9 SD.

I just looked at that sample clip and it is defintely not HD. It clearly is upconverted 16:9 SD.

Having spoken to someone who was at the Japanese GP and dealing with the host feed, Fuji were DEFINITELY producing it in HD. (The graphics sometimes looked ropey as they were a 576/50i upconvert to 1080/60i AIUI and then a downconvert for 480/60i or 576/50i audiences outside Japan)

I just looked at that sample clip and it is defintely not HD. It clearly is upconverted 16:9 SD.

I haven't watched anything more than the sample, but to my eyes, it looks better than upscaled SD. Not a lot better, and not up to the standard of HD sports that we get in America, but better than the usual world feed.

Someone else made a screenshot comparison (http://comparescreenshots.slicx.com/comparison/18589/) between the Fuji TV cap and an upscale of the BBC TS. The Fuji shots look better, but not by a whole lot. You decide.

The BBC clip will almost certainly have been 60i to 50i converted AND will have been broadcast at around 3Mbs MPEG2 576/50i - so any compression artefacts will be quite large.

Even if the Fuji TV broadcast is an upconvert it is likely to be a 60i upconvert with no frame rate conversion AND any compression artefacts on broadcast are likely to be at the 1920x1080 resolution, so much smaller.

Thus an SD source broadcast as an HD upconvert on Fuji TV is likely to look a lot better than the same source frame rate converted and broadcast on a relatively heavily compressed SD platform.

The BBC clip will almost certainly have been 60i to 50i converted AND will have been broadcast at around 3Mbs MPEG2 576/50i - so any compression artefacts will be quite large.

Even if the Fuji TV broadcast is an upconvert it is likely to be a 60i upconvert with no frame rate conversion AND any compression artefacts on broadcast are likely to be at the 1920x1080 resolution, so much smaller.

Thus an SD source broadcast as an HD upconvert on Fuji TV is likely to look a lot better than the same source frame rate converted and broadcast on a relatively heavily compressed SD platform.

This is exactly how that clip from Fuji TV looks. Upconverted SD to HD without any standards conversion. We know that FOM shoots the races in the local TV formats. Since Japan is 60Hz like US it was shot 480i/60Hz.

If anyone wants to see a 1080i HD sample of Fuji 2007, stefmeister at digitalspy posted a 8 minute, 500MB sample here (http://www.digitalspy.com/forums/showpost.php?p=29671677&postcount=2173).

The shots from the pitlane make it obvious that its HD--you can read the timing screen over Ron Dennis' shoulder. I could really get used to watching F1 like this.

Abu Dhabi practice on Speed-TV looked good, but not quite HD-good. I thought the quality of the in-car cameras looked about as good as the trackside cameras, though.

Definitly not HD. The track reminds me a lot of the Paul Ricard track.

the quality of the in-car cameras looked about as good as the trackside cameras

I noticed that myself, they looked clear and in the correct aspect ratio now whereas before they were blurry (webcam style) and looked like someone had cropped an analogue image.

It was also SD only here in Australia and we get the cinema feed complete with DD5.1 audio and 16:9 safe graphics. If anyone would be getting it in HD around the world, it would have been us or SPEED (US). I wonder if anyone got the High Definition feed? Perhaps it was a local only thing?

AIUI the rights-holders on-site weren't offered an HD feed - so if it was produced in HD I doubt it left the truck...

Lots of rumblings that the host coverage WILL be HD next year - but like so many things in F1, nothing is ever certain until it actually happens...

I see that Speed cut a new deal with Greed Inc FOM to keep showing F1. Any one know if they HD was was a factor in the deal?

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/formula-1-news/225340/multi-year-formula-1-agreement-for-speed/

I just read that Schumacher is coming back to Fi with team Mercedes which means I might start watching again. The problem is, I dumped cable a while ago and would rather not get it again. Is there any other way to watch F1 in the U.S.? Can it be watched someplace online such SpeedTV.com or YouTube? Thanks.

I just read that Schumacher is coming back to Fi with team Mercedes which means I might start watching again.
If you missed the last two seasons because of no Schumacher, you've missed a lot. The 2009 season was very interesting as the old teams were getting trounced by the newer teams. I think Schumacher will find it very challenging to learn the new cars and compete with the younger drivers. However, I realize everyone has their favorites.

The problem is, I dumped cable a while ago and would rather not get it again. Is there any other way to watch F1 in the U.S.? Can it be watched someplace online such SpeedTV.com or YouTube?
I dumped cable, too, and went back to DirecTV. Both of the satellite carriers, DirecTV and Dish, carry Speed in HD.

Don't know about on-line feeds. I've heard there are some European sites where you can download a lot more F1 video than we get in the US.