Battlestar Galactica on SciFi HD - Season 4 [Text View] - Page 14

RLJ

03-25-07, 11:30 PM

So I guess I'm the only one that took it like the 5th was Starbuck.

As for the other 4, it just doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Anders had no military association and was way back on Caprica. The Presidential aid was a nobody until Billy happened to be killed by humans, no cylons. They were both nobodies who happened into the situations they were in as important people by luck.

Likewise, Tigh mentioned being in the fleet 40 years. If I recall even half that time ago both he AND Adama were nobodies. So what, the Cylons knew 40 years ago during the 1st war that this random guy Bill Adama would be the Admiral leading the remainders of humanity away after their victory in the second Human/Cylon war? And wasn't the last war 40 years ago? Yet supposedly they didn't have human-looking cylons back then, but that's where Tigh would have to fall in line.

The only way this could even work is if they weren't "created" as Cylons, but rather real people that Cylons were modelled over and then at some point (presumably on New Caprica) the Cylons switched the "fake" Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, and aid for the "real" Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, and aid.

if you look up a couple comments, I alluded to Kara being 1 of the 5 also (post 3272). :D

afiggatt

03-25-07, 11:30 PM

Also, those 3 women who spirited Baltar away. What is their game?
Those were probably the Baltar groupies. Remember the woman who came to his prison cell so he would bless her? Baltar is probably going to become a cult leader and get even more action than he got on the Cylon ship.

As for entire ending, that was out of left field. Long wait to find out what the heck that was about.

If season 4 of BSG won't start until early 2008, will we see it on Sci-Fi HD?

lax01

03-25-07, 11:33 PM

I expect another 3 pages by the time I wake up tomorrow ;)

and this show better be in HD...I'm sick of this zoomed-SD crap...totally distracts from the overall greatness of this show

RLJ

03-25-07, 11:34 PM

Those were probably the Baltar groupies. Remember the woman who came to his prison cell so he would bless her? Baltar is probably going to become a cult leader and get even more action than he got on the Cylon ship.

True, but it could also put him in a worse spot. It seems to me, everytime he is presented with a better offer, it works out worse for him in the long run?

jcavner

03-25-07, 11:36 PM

So I guess I'm the only one that took it like the 5th was Starbuck.

As for the other 4, it just doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Anders had no military association and was way back on Caprica. The Presidential aid was a nobody until Billy happened to be killed by humans, no cylons. They were both nobodies who happened into the situations they were in as important people by luck.

Likewise, Tigh mentioned being in the fleet 40 years. If I recall even half that time ago both he AND Adama were nobodies. So what, the Cylons knew 40 years ago during the 1st war that this random guy Bill Adama would be the Admiral leading the remainders of humanity away after their victory in the second Human/Cylon war? And wasn't the last war 40 years ago? Yet supposedly they didn't have human-looking cylons back then, but that's where Tigh would have to fall in line.

The only way this could even work is if they weren't "created" as Cylons, but rather real people that Cylons were modelled over and then at some point (presumably on New Caprica) the Cylons switched the "fake" Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, and aid for the "real" Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, and aid.

Based on what I am calling your "nobodies theory" (which is a very valid point), is it possible that the Cylons have "planted" other 'nobodies' early on in hopes that some of them would reach positions in society that could benefit them? That of course would be hard to explain since there is only supposed to be 5 other models, but if the other models are so secret and hidden, whos to say that there werent other models, but they were destroyed during the war. After all, even the Cyclons dont know who they are...

RLJ

03-25-07, 11:39 PM

Based on what I am calling your "nobodies theory" (which is a very valid point), is it possible that the Cylons have "planted" other 'nobodies' early on in hopes that some of them would reach positions in society that could benefit them? That of course would be hard to explain since there is only supposed to be 5 other models, but if the other models are so secret and hidden, whos to say that there werent other models, but they were destroyed during the war. After all, even the Cyclons dont know who they are...

Did they actually say they don't know who they are? I thought they only didn't talk about them.
I think Ron is sticking to the only 12 models that was mentioned in that note to Adam at the end if the mini-series. Which brings up a question that hasn't been answered yet. WHO left Adam that note?!

HDNair

03-25-07, 11:43 PM

Also, Six and Baltar are about to see the 5. I am thinking our 4 new "Cylons" with maybe Kara in the group.

Nah, the 5th Cylon is obviously Bob Dylan. :D

aaronwt

03-25-07, 11:47 PM

Remember the early interview with Almos he said we will never reach earth, if they do and probably will then thats it for BSG.
They'll reach Earth and the show will come back on again in a couple of years and it will be called "BSG 2010". ;)

RLJ

03-25-07, 11:48 PM

Nah, the 5th Cylon is obviously Bob Dylan. :D
So long as it isn't Patrick McNee from TOS. :p

RLJ

03-25-07, 11:50 PM

They'll reach Earth and the show will come back on again in a couple of years and it will be called "BSG 2010". ;)
That will be a pretty big shark that they will "jump" over then. :eek:

loco

03-25-07, 11:50 PM

Am I the only one who thought I noticed a strange "look" between Roslin and that girl who came to see Baltar and asked him to bless her son? This was during the trial.

I need to watch it again, but I think I remember her looking over at her, for no apparent reason at the time. Then, the girl is among those who take Baltar away after the trial.

bfdtv

03-25-07, 11:50 PM

Was anyone not impressed?

aaronwt

03-25-07, 11:51 PM

That will be a pretty big shark that they will "jump" over then. :eek:

Don't you remember "Battlestar Galactica 1980"?

RLJ

03-25-07, 11:52 PM

jcavner

03-25-07, 11:52 PM

Did they actually say they don't know who they are? I thought they only didn't talk about them.
I think Ron is sticking to the only 12 models that was mentioned in that note to Adam at the end if the mini-series. Which brings up a question that hasn't been answered yet. WHO left Adam that note?!

I based what I said about not knowing who they are by the behavior of the Cylong played by Lucy Lawless doing all of that trying to see the faces of the final 5.

That being said, I am kind of a new fan and have watched all of the seasons, etc in the last 6 mos. It's entirely possible I missed something. At least I have til 2008 to watch them all again! :)

RLJ

03-25-07, 11:52 PM

Don't you remember "Battlestar Galactica 1980"?
I try not too. :rolleyes:

RLJ

03-25-07, 11:54 PM

I based what I said about not knowing who they are by the behavior of the Cylong played by Lucy Lawless doing all of that trying to see the faces of the final 5.

That being said, I am kind of a new fan and have watched all of the seasons, etc in the last 6 mos. It's entirely possible I missed something. At least I have til 2008 to watch them all again! :)
It was when Baltar and Lucy were walking through a corridor, he asked about the other 5 and she said that they don't talk about them. Or words to that affect.

loco

03-25-07, 11:55 PM

RLJ wrote:
I saw that. I thought she was looking at her aid though?

Maybe so RLJ. Must watch again.

I'm a little bit freaked out by this episode. It asked more questions than it answered, and that's good for a finale, I guess. I loved some of it, and other parts were a little too trippy for me. Maybe after another viewing it will make more "sense."

Waiting for January is going to suck.

bfdtv

03-25-07, 11:56 PM

Did they actually say they don't know who they are? I thought they only didn't talk about them.
I think Ron is sticking to the only 12 models that was mentioned in that note to Adam at the end if the mini-series. Which brings up a question that hasn't been answered yet. WHO left Adam that note?!Recall the cylon played by Lucy Lawless. She keeps killing herself over and over in the hope of seeing the final five. When she finally does gaze upon them in the temple, she says to one, "I'm sorry for what we did to you, I didn't know." Now it is clear that she was referring to:Saul Tigh

MOREPOWER

03-25-07, 11:58 PM

RLJ

03-25-07, 11:58 PM

Recall the cylon played by Lucy Lawless. She keeps killing herself over and over in the hope of seeing the final five. When she finally does gaze upon them in the temple, she says to one, "I'm sorry for what we did to you, I didn't know." Now it is clear that she was referring to:Saul Tigh

Hmmm, interesting. I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense. But there was also someone else that they did terrible things to.

Starbuck, back on Caprica when they took her eggs and then when that one Cylon singled her out for his own game.

RLJ

03-25-07, 11:59 PM

RLJ wrote:

Maybe so RLJ. Must watch again.

I'm a little bit freaked out by this episode. It asked more questions than it answered, and that's good for a finale, I guess. I loved some of it, and other parts were a little too trippy for me. Maybe after another viewing it will make more "sense."

Waiting for January is going to suck.

I need to watch it again also, catch all the things I missed the first time around.

RLJ

03-26-07, 12:01 AM

Maybe the 5th Cylon is madam president, She had a transfusion of Cylon hybrid blood like little nano bots the made an organic computer brain, thats why she collapsed when the power outage came, she has visions that could be produced by her cylon mind, but then again dint the priestess say she would not reach earth and shed die, maybe she just wont get there as a human.

So resistance is futile, she will be assimilated. :eek:

tripleM

03-26-07, 12:02 AM

Recall the cylon played by Lucy Lawless. She keeps killing herself over and over in the hope of seeing the final five. When she finally does gaze upon them in the temple, she says to one, "I'm sorry for what we did to you, I didn't know." Now it is clear that she was referring to:Saul Tigh

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO......way.
:D

I'm still surprised no1 has mentioned the walking cane that Lampkin left behind.
Is he not toooo obvious of a suspect?

MOREPOWER

03-26-07, 12:05 AM

bfdtv

03-26-07, 12:06 AM

I'm still surprised no1 has mentioned the walking cane that Lampkin left behind.
Is he not toooo obvious of a suspect?The cane was just part of Lampkin's act.

We know, for sure, four of the final five cylons. It was strongly implied that Kara was the last.

jcavner

03-26-07, 12:06 AM

Maybe the 5th Cylon is madam president, She had a transfusion of Cylon hybrid blood like little nano bots the made an organic computer brain, thats why she collapsed when the power outage came, she has visions that could be produced by her cylon mind, but then again dint the priestess say she would not reach earth and shed die, maybe she just wont get there as a human.

You may be on to something there! Is it 2008 yet? I think that the last of the final 5 is going to be more of a OSM (Oh $h!t moment) than the alleged current 4.

aaronwt

03-26-07, 12:11 AM

Well we have looong wait!

tripleM

03-26-07, 12:16 AM

The cane was just part of Lampkin's act.

We know, for sure, four of the final five cylons. It was strongly implied that Kara was the last.

The SciFi board would only 50% agree with your last statement.

IMO, It's tooo convenient esp. since Torrie had such a small role in the whole scheme of things.

johnbe

03-26-07, 12:20 AM

I am not convinced they are sleeper cylons. For one, Tyrol has thought he was a cylon several different times and it was disproved on those occasions. And then it would make his son another cylon/human baby. I don't think they need to deal with that plot point again. It would seem to make the Hera point moot.

help-r-monkey

03-26-07, 12:24 AM

The episode i think was to make us think they were the 4of the final five. I believe the music is something different and meant to distract us.

were they using google universe for that last shot?

Whats up with the jesus haircut and beard for Baltar?

I hope the forth season isn't the last. They could stretch out the trip to earth a couple more seasons, but i don't think they can reveal the last of the final five until the series end.

sorry if the post in incoherent, I am just still in a daze from the last ep.

bfdtv

03-26-07, 12:28 AM

And then it would make his son another cylon/human baby.Hadn't thought of that!

That said, we don't know enough about the "final five." They may be the very first cylon "human" designs. We have no idea how their abilities compare to the other seven. They may not have the genetically engineered immunities (to disease, etc) of the newest group. They may not even resurrect.

The episode i think was to make us think they were the 4of the final five. I believe the music is something different and meant to distract us.On the SciFi web site, it says to tune in to discover the identities of the final five.

What did you all make of the power outage throughout the entire fleet? Did the final five, directly or indirectly, have something to do with that?

epsilon

03-26-07, 03:48 AM

I agree that Roslin is the most likely 5th Cylon. That would be the most logical explanation of her sharing the dream with Sharon and Six.

petergaryr

03-26-07, 05:36 AM

FreeBaGeL

03-26-07, 08:31 AM

Another thing I was thinking about is that I wonder if the Cylons have already reached Earth. They obviously know where the Nebula was and beat the fleet there, and if Starbuck is the 5th then she's already been to Earth...

Then again we know that Starbuck has a mother, though Tyrol supposedly got his religious knowledge from his parents as well.

I still think the 4 of them being cylons would be an enormous plothole as mentioned last page (based on the properly dubbed "nobodies theory"). Even in addition to all that it introduces yet another coincidence that of the 12 cylons only 3 were military personnel, all of which happened to be stationed on the same ship, which happened to be the only military ship to survive..

lax01

03-26-07, 08:57 AM

What did you all make of the power outage throughout the entire fleet? Did the final five, directly or indirectly, have something to do with that?

I dunno...but didn't the power outage stop once they sealed them all in that room? :)

The only way those 4 are actual Cylons, are if the Cylons had been planning this for much longer than the previous episodes let us believe...Anders was a world(s) famous athlete...he could not just have materialized out of no-where and become that way...it doesn't make any sense...he had to be on Caprica for a lot longer than that...I'm still not convinced they are actual Cylons (at least not of the same generation as #6 and Sharon)

David F

03-26-07, 09:26 AM

The Final Five are definitely different from the other seven, otherwise they would be with them and the seven we know would know about them, which they do not. That is why Lucy Lawless was so surprised when she finally saw the face of one (probably Tigh, since she apologized for what they did and said "We didn't know").

I'm not sure they are Cylons as we think of it, but they must be either part of the Cylon society in some way or part of Cylon mythology. What if they are also the Lords of Kobol? What would it mean to the Cylons to discover that their Final Five are the "gods" of humanity? Does that end the war? Do they join forces? Is Kara leading both Cylons and humanity to Earth? And if so, then how does the show generate conflict?

bmel

03-26-07, 09:43 AM

Tigh thinks he is a cylon but wants to live his life as an officer. He returns to Adamas side. Should he not be mindful of what happened when Sharon-Boomer's cylon switch was activated? Would he not want to avoid such a situation? Of course if he is indeed a cylon his programing would block such thoughts and he would immediately go to the command center. Therefore he must be a cylon following his programing(??).

David F

03-26-07, 09:48 AM

Tyrol said it was like someone flipping a switch, so it seems they have internal information about their state of being that is not shown to the audience. They know they are Cylons. But they retain their humans selves and memories as well, which is why Tigh says, "My name is Saul Tigh and I'm an officer in the Colonial Fleet." Then goes on to say that if he dies today he will die as a man. I thought it was very moving.

help-r-monkey

03-26-07, 09:51 AM

I think what Starbuck meant when she said she had been to earth is not that she was teleported there but when she died she become an angel of god(s) to help them find thier way. Kinda like the six that baltar always talks to.

Then again we know that Starbuck has a mother, though Tyrol supposedly got his religious knowledge from his parents as well.

Sharon had "parents" too.

8 months is too long. I will be ok until they finish running through the shows in HD, but then I am going to have to find something to fill the void. I guess I will finally spring for the xbox or ps3.

Wytchone

03-26-07, 10:07 AM

replayrob

03-26-07, 10:08 AM

What about the impending attack on the fleet by the Cylon base ships? 20 minutes for a cold FLT start! Oh no… We cannot change the laws of physics, we’ve got to have 20 minutes!
But wait!, there’s a theory- a formula… maybe with the correct matter/anti-matter intermix ratio the engines will implode and the fleet will be thrown clear! It’s never been tried before and maybe they’ll go up like a super nova, but there’s a 1 in 10’000 chance it will work. Clear the corridors, the turbo-lift, I give- she takes…. red alert!!
Hmmm… (in my best old Biff voice) “there’s something awfully familiar about all this”.

Overall, I’d rate “Crossroads” a 4 out of 10 as a season finale- cliffhanger episode. It wasn’t up to the last two season finale episodes. The Baltar trial was interesting, but had absolutely nothing at all to do with “the music’s in the fracking ship” storyline. The trial issue could have easily been a regular season episode. Speaking of Cylon models, if Tigh is indeed one of the final five… the Cylon QC engineers need to do a model recall on that whole line… talk about some major product flaws. He must have been made on a Friday (during happy hour no doubt).

2008 till new episodes?? What the Frack! RDM better hope we still care enough to tune in BSG 8-9 months down the road. I guess if they drop ½ the audience when it returns- the experiment failed. :(

At least Sci-Fi has a pretty cool show in “The Dresden Files” which is quite watchable, and “Painkiller Jane” looks interesting….

bfdtv

03-26-07, 10:10 AM

Sharon had "parents" too. Sharon didn't really have parents. Those memories were implanted.

Starbuck's memories (at least to a certain point) were real. We've seen her apartment on Caprica and Adama has known her for >10 years.

HDTVChallenged

03-26-07, 10:28 AM

Random Theory:

If we are to accept the episode at face value, perhaps the "the final five" chose not to rebel against the humans? Thus the reason why the "known" cylons don't talk about them?

epsilon

03-26-07, 10:39 AM

I'm not sure they are Cylons as we think of it, but they must be either part of the Cylon society in some way or part of Cylon mythology. What if they are also the Lords of Kobol? What would it mean to the Cylons to discover that their Final Five are the "gods" of humanity? Does that end the war? Do they join forces? Is Kara leading both Cylons and humanity to Earth? And if so, then how does the show generate conflict?These are all very good questions and they will provide plenty of material for the season(s) to come. There'll still be conflict there, from the different factions fighting for acceptance, comprehension or mis-,self awareness, forgiveness, domination, etc., even amongst themselves. The majority of humans may have come to tolerate and accept Athena but what happens if a larger number of Cylons (and hybrids) joins them on the journey back to earth?

Tyrol said it was like someone flipping a switch, so it seems they have internal information about their state of being that is not shown to the audience. They know they are Cylons. But they retain their humans selves and memories as well, which is why Tigh says, "My name is Saul Tigh and I'm an officer in the Colonial Fleet." Then goes on to say that if he dies today he will die as a man. I thought it was very moving.Quoting you to emphasize your points :)

Don H

03-26-07, 11:01 AM

8 months is too long. I will be ok until they finish running through the shows in HD, but then I am going to have to find something to fill the void. I guess I will finally spring for the xbox or ps3.[/QUOTE]

To fill the void you might want to watch the tv series "The Untouchables" with Robert Stack due out April 10, 2007. You can buy the first set from Target on-line for about $30.

David F

03-26-07, 11:21 AM

Does anyone know why the gap between seasons is so long? Does everyone just need a vacation or what? That is an incredibly long gap. And it's closer to 10 months....

Palladin

03-26-07, 11:30 AM

Does anyone know why the gap between seasons is so long? Does everyone just need a vacation or what? That is an incredibly long gap. And it's closer to 10 months....
Noit sure, but I've heard a rumor that it was intended to help build up an audience for 'The Untouchables' TV series on DVD which is due out in April 2007 ;) :D

____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Mr. Hanky

03-26-07, 12:15 PM

Random Theory:

If we are to accept the episode at face value, perhaps the "the final five" chose not to rebel against the humans? Thus the reason why the "known" cylons don't talk about them?

...and maybe these models were also "boxed" for some big underlying reason? :eek:

Wytchone

03-26-07, 12:18 PM

Does anyone know why the gap between seasons is so long? Does everyone just need a vacation or what? That is an incredibly long gap. And it's closer to 10 months....

I wonder about this also. Sure there is suppose to be a Movie (TV) but was it due to them not knowing if they would be picked up for Season 4? As of Friday I found out they are going for a full season 4 but 8 to 10 months to wait sucks.

Iteki

03-26-07, 12:53 PM

Holy, holy crap. Wow. I have no idea where they are going to go with this.

I did notice the SFX were different again, and that the jumps had a slightly different sound effect. I kind of like the new look.

Yeah, they were a bit odd...

Iteki

03-26-07, 12:54 PM

Well since Lee was running probably heavy on the throttle and Kara just blew by him the first time, I think that her ship might be faster. Also, it can look like all the others, but be a complete sleeper. Guess we will have to see how it does in season 4 when the battle begins.

It looked BRAND SPANKING shiny new....interesting.

Iteki

03-26-07, 12:56 PM

Also,

Adama orders a emergency jump = it takes the fleet further away from Earth...

My only problem with this season is, it still seems like they rushed into this...they had 3 episodes of incredibly rushed and almost too much stuff going on...one minute they're in trial, the next they're preparing to jump...everything just came way too fast...

Had they not had 3 complete standalone (read: filler) episodes, and had been continually building the tension and storyline, the pace would have seen a whole lot smoother and continual...instead, we're left with this complete and utter brain-melt at the end guessing where they are going to go next...don't get me wrong, I thought the episode was great, but I just wished they had used the rest of the season more wisely

Agreed...pacing was off this season. Too much flashbang at the beginning/end with not enough in the middle.

Iteki

03-26-07, 12:57 PM

Thats a good point. Here is something to chew on as well. If they are doing a 2 hour movie around the Pegasus and it's beginnings, is it possible that there will be a Battlestar spinoff (like Stargate or Star Trek). Could the 2 hour movie be a testing ground to see how many of the BSG diehards would tune in to watch the Pegasus crew? Of course, we all know how that story ends..

They are already floating a 'Caprica' prequel that doesn't look like it will get picked up . I for one will be happy if it doesn't. BSG doesn't need any dilution of it's fanbase or an even more complex backstory/history that might hamstring them in future episodes.

Iteki

03-26-07, 12:57 PM

If season 4 of BSG won't start until early 2008, will we see it on Sci-Fi HD?

Excellent question...Let's Hope So!

Iteki

03-26-07, 12:59 PM

Iteki

03-26-07, 01:05 PM

Nah, the 5th Cylon is obviously Bob Dylan. :D

Jimi Hendrix, you mean. EDIT: His version is the quintessential version in my book. But they both performed it before I was born, so what do I know? :-)

Which brings up an interesting point. How does these 4 Cylons know the lyrics to a Hendrix song unless they know of/have been to Earth? And if so, that settles quite a few questions about the timeline of their story in regards to Earth's. It's at least the late 1960's on Earth as this story is taking place. It could be decades or centuries later, but it's not earlier.

Iteki

03-26-07, 01:07 PM

Does anyone know why the gap between seasons is so long? Does everyone just need a vacation or what? That is an incredibly long gap. And it's closer to 10 months....

Some of it is due to the challenges of producing a special effects laden series like BSG, and some is financial. RDM touched on it in an interview. They are able to spread the budget over more than one year and keep costs 'down' without actually effecting the per-episode budget.

It does suck a major mountain of *ss to have to wait that long, regardless of the reason.

petergaryr

03-26-07, 01:08 PM

In case you don't frequent the HD Programming forum (spoilers if you haven't seen the second part of the season finale---exercise control!):

http://www.tvweek.com/article.cms?articleId=31699

Keller

03-26-07, 01:15 PM

Jimi Hendrix, you mean. EDIT: His version is the quintessential version in my book. But they both performed it before I was born, so what do I know? :-)

Which brings up an interesting point. How does these 4 Cylons know the lyrics to a Hendrix song unless they know of/have been to Earth? And if so, that settles quite a few questions about the timeline of their story in regards to Earth's. It's at least the late 1960's on Earth as this story is taking place. It could be decades or centuries later, but it's not earlier.

One possibility for the song is that it means they are getting close to Earth. We always hear how our tv and radio signals get beamed out into space, I wonder if they picked up an old radio transmission? Doesn't really explain why they keep hearing the same song over and over, though.

Did anyone pick up on the meledy they were trying to describe to each other? Was it All Along the Watchtower like the lyrics they quoted?

Great use of music in this episode. I thought the heavy background music was perfect and added alot of drama to the episode.

Palladin

03-26-07, 01:28 PM

Of all the music and sounds that could have been used for that purpose, why All along the Watchtower specifically? Was it picked because it happened to be a personal fave of Moore? Do you think Dylan/Hendrix is intergalactic? (okay Hendrix, maybe :) ) . Look, unless he's being an unfair jerk about this, I would think that Moore wouldn't choose the song that activates 'sleeper' cylons, or those who have been made to think they were cylons, unless it had some particular significance.

I've looked at the lyrics again, and some of it seems to be suggesting the eternal battle between Chaos (humans) and Order (cylons), and is leading me to believe that the struggle is essentially a perpetual mobius strip, which has happened before and will happen again.

When I misread a post 1 or 2 weeks back, which I thought indicated the final five would be revealed, I came to the conclusion that one of them would have to be someone in a position of prominent power. That left 3 possibilities in my mind: Adama, Roslin or Baltar, if he in fact, assumed the messiah model that they seemed to be grooming him for. Knocked out Baltar for no other reason than he’s already been a cylon pawn; and Adama, because it just couldn’t be him without undermining the whole spirit of this series. This left Roslin, who had visions of other cylons, was saved from death by cylon/human antibodies (interesting that that concept was not pursued any further with the colonists). I join in with those who subscribe to that theory, until or unless someone comes up with a clearly better choice.

_____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Iteki

03-26-07, 01:33 PM

One possibility for the song is that it means they are getting close to Earth. We always hear how our tv and radio signals get beamed out into space, I wonder if they picked up an old radio transmission? Doesn't really explain why they keep hearing the same song over and over, though.

Well radio waves travel at 'about' the speed of light. That song is 40 years old, so if that were the case they'd be at least 40 light years out. I don't imagine that's a huge distance for them, but I don't know. I don't think it's the case, however. I believe the song was a 'wake up' call for the Final 5...meaning it's been around a while. Kara's hubby and Tyrol both mentioned it seemed familiar, like a memory from childhood.

Did anyone pick up on the meledy they were trying to describe to each other? Was it All Along the Watchtower like the lyrics they quoted?

Yes, it was. They just did it very badly :-)

JimsArcade

03-26-07, 02:01 PM

Tyrol's/Cally's baby is the only thing that makes me question the choices for the Final Five. Except for Helo's/Sharon's baby, the cylons have been unable to produce a successful hybrid. If it's explained that this restriction does not apply to the Final Five, I guess that would be OK. However, I think a better reason, and what would ultimately make for a really good episode, would be if the baby isn't Tyrol's after all... that Cally cheated on him while on New Caprica.

humdinger70

03-26-07, 02:11 PM

lax01

03-26-07, 02:18 PM

Well radio waves travel at 'about' the speed of light.

Not 'about'...they travel AT the speed of light (c)...since they are light waves....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/83/Atmospheric_electromagnetic_transmittance_or_opacity.jpg/800px-Atmospheric_electromagnetic_transmittance_or_opacity.jpg

David F

03-26-07, 02:20 PM

Did anyone notice that for the final two episodes, they did away with the usual opening - no "The cylons were built by man..." sequence, no opening music/flashback sequence which would include the pre-episode flashes - they started the episode and then the credits came on early as part of the episode.

Good idea or bad? I know it gets a little repetitve at times.

I think RDM said they had to get special permission from the Sci Fi Channel for this because they were running short on time and wanted to cram in as much material as they could in the allotted window.

lax01

03-26-07, 02:23 PM

I think RDM said they had to get special permission from the Sci Fi Channel for this because they were running short on time and wanted to cram in as much material as they could in the allotted window.

Thats the problem...I'm all for content-packed episodes...but when the past 3 episodes before these were absolute horrid BS, there is really no need to jam it so full

pappy97

03-26-07, 02:25 PM

Does anyone know why the gap between seasons is so long? Does everyone just need a vacation or what? That is an incredibly long gap. And it's closer to 10 months....

Probably because of the direct to TV/DVD movie that will come out before Season 4.

pappy97

03-26-07, 02:29 PM

I was disappointed with the season finale.

I thought the trial was great, but the Cylon revelation was weak. Besides the Chief, we were already led to believe the other 3 were Cylons. It was just too predictable. I was sure it was going to be someone else who was making them think they are cylons, but they really aren't (like Gaeta).

And just because of the music and them meeting up at the same place, now they are cylons? I'm not buying it.

Seems more like a cylon plan to make important people think they are cylon so they can't do their jobs properly. Notice all of these people are not main people, but they help out: they are right hand men to others (or right hand lady in one case). It would make sense to make people believe they are cylon just to frack with them!

David F

03-26-07, 02:38 PM

I thought the trial was great, but the Cylon revelation was weak. Besides the Chief, we were already led to believe the other 3 were Cylons. It was just too predictable. I was sure it was going to be someone else who was making them think they are cylons, but they really aren't (like Gaeta).

And just because of the music and them meeting up at the same place, now they are cylons? I'm not buying it.

There's more to it than just hearing the music and ending up in the same room. As I said on the previous page:

Tyrol said it was like someone flipping a switch, so it seems they have internal information about their state of being that is not shown to the audience. They know they are Cylons. But they retain their humans selves and memories as well, which is why Tigh says, "My name is Saul Tigh and I'm an officer in the Colonial Fleet." Then goes on to say that if he dies today he will die as a man. I thought it was very moving.

timltucker

03-26-07, 02:56 PM

Another thing I was thinking about is that I wonder if the Cylons have already reached Earth. They obviously know where the Nebula was and beat the fleet there, and if Starbuck is the 5th then she's already been to Earth...

Here is a wild guess that I'll throw out. The Cylon fleet we see at the end isn't from the previous seven Cylons but from the group of Cylons now known as the "final five". That might explain the siren song meant to wakeup the sleepers to help the "final five" team's fleet out at a critical moment. Too confusing?

We have the original seven Cylons out near the 12 colonies and a mystereous group of five Cylons that even the Cylons don't known about. Could they in fact be living out near Earth? Does this imply that the Cylons fractured into two groups sometime in the very distant past? Do they like each other? I'm guessing that they don't. That would make the Galactica a pawn in a very big game between these two groups.

Then again we know that Starbuck has a mother, though Tyrol supposedly got his religious knowledge from his parents as well...

I think this just re-enforces the idea that the so called "final five" Cylons are something very very different from the Cylons we have seen so far.

I still think the 4 of them being cylons would be an enormous plothole as mentioned last page (based on the properly dubbed "nobodies theory"). Even in addition to all that it introduces yet another coincidence that of the 12 cylons only 3 were military personnel, all of which happened to be stationed on the same ship, which happened to be the only military ship to survive...

What if the Galactica didn't get away by chance? That would explain why these sleeper Cylons are all on the Galactica. Maybe the Cylon's have had a plan all along...

Palladin

03-26-07, 02:57 PM

There's more to it than just hearing the music and ending up in the same room. As I said on the previous page:
Tyrol said it was like someone flipping a switch, so it seems they have internal information about their state of being that is not shown to the audience. They know they are Cylons. But they retain their humans selves and memories as well, which is why Tigh says, "My name is Saul Tigh and I'm an officer in the Colonial Fleet." Then goes on to say that if he dies today he will die as a man. I thought it was very moving.
Well since you brought it up again, let me point out the potential fallacy of that conclusion. Explain to me how they (or you) would differentiate between a 'switch' thrown that made them cylons, and a switch that would make them think they were cylons?

________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

tripleM

03-26-07, 03:23 PM

Here's is the latest Ron Moore confirmations article:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm

WilliamR

03-26-07, 03:44 PM

David F

03-26-07, 03:45 PM

Well since you brought it up again, let me point out the potential fallacy of that conclusion. Explain to me how they (or you) would differentiate between a 'switch' thrown that made them cylons, and a switch that would make them think they were cylons?

________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Why would anyone want to make them think they were Cylons if they weren't? And who would do such a thing?

Again, we don't know the information the "thrown switch" imparts to them. But who would install such a switch if not the Cylons?

David F

03-26-07, 03:46 PM

laserguns

03-26-07, 03:47 PM

Here's is the latest Ron Moore confirmations article:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm

ahhh sooo they are cylons just "fundamentally different".

I really hope we get at least 5 whole seasons out of BSG. From what it looks like now, we won't be getting another (5th) season, but I can hope. (even another 13 episode season would be enough)

man....did anybody else get chills last night when they panned out then zoomed in to earth? :D I just had to sit there for a while....

Palladin

03-26-07, 03:47 PM

In the week before last, who was in the bar with the Col. and when the Col. was tuning the radio, he looked over and said, no go back, you almost had it. Who said that, does that mean the person that said that is a Cylon too?
Won't swear to it, but pretty sure it was Anders.

______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

tripleM

03-26-07, 03:54 PM

ahhh sooo they are cylons just "fundamentally different".

I really hope we get at least 5 whole seasons out of BSG. From what it looks like now, we won't be getting another (5th) season, but I can hope. (even another 13 episode season would be enough)

man....did anybody else get chills last night when they panned out then zoomed in to earth? :D I just had to sit there for a while....

I'm really stunned that Ron Moore confirmed everything about the season finale.

pappy97

03-26-07, 03:56 PM

Why would anyone want to make them think they were Cylons if they weren't? And who would do such a thing?

As I said above:

"Seems more like a cylon plan to make important people think they are cylon so they can't do their jobs properly. Notice all of these people are not main people, but they help out: they are right hand men to others (or right hand lady in one case). It would make sense to make people believe they are cylon just to frack with them!"

Iteki

03-26-07, 03:57 PM

Won't swear to it, but pretty sure it was Anders.

______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

it was...

David F

03-26-07, 03:58 PM

Won't swear to it, but pretty sure it was Anders.

______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

You can swear to it. :) It was Anders. It was even recapped in the "Previously on Battlestar Galactica" at the start of the show.

Palladin

03-26-07, 03:58 PM

Well, you beat me to Anders. ;)

Why would anyone want to make them think they were Cylons if they weren't? And who would do such a thing?

Again, we don't know the information the "thrown switch" imparts to them. But who would install such a switch if not the Cylons?

It's like The Manchurian Candidate syndrome. Of course the cylons would throw the switch. But a cylon who knows it is a cylon might be more suceptible to detection.

OTOH, if you've got perfectly normal humans and you can elicit the desired response/result (i.e. doing your bidding) with a queen of hearts, which would be the more desirable course?

Of course this is merely a hypothetical exercise, as it appears to have been rendered moot by Moore's interview. I'm surprised he would take that action, perhaps he's concerned about 'Lost' backlash in the ratings.

_________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

David F

03-26-07, 04:04 PM

Well, you beat me to Anders. ;)

OTOH, if you've got perfectly normal humans and you can elicit the desired response/result (i.e. doing your bidding) with a queen of hearts, which would be the more desirable course?

I see where you're coming from, but since Tigh basically said, "Screw this, I'm Saul Tigh and that's who I choose to be," I would say the conditioning was a failure.

As you said, however, RDM's interview pretty much confirmed what I suspected, that they are Cylons but of a different type from the ones we know.

keenan

03-26-07, 05:31 PM

Regarding the music, specifically, "All Along The Watchtower", from Maureen Ryan's column,

Finally, I have to say that Bear McCreary, who does the show’s terrific music, did a great job of incorporating “All Along the Watchtower” into the final episode. This was a risky move that could have been really cheesy -- but it wasn’t, thanks to the skill of McCreary (and “Battlestar’s” editors, who did a great job of making that last set of scenes, when the four characters realize they're Cylons, compelling).

One quibble about the music -- I wouldn't have picked the vocalist that was chosen to sing the song in the closing moments. He reminded me of the guy who sang the "Star Trek: Enterprise" theme song, a theme I never really liked -- either version.

In any case, what does it mean that a song that is recognizable from our own, current Earth era was used in that episode? An episode in which the humans may have actually found a way to Earth? Very suggestive, no? I thought it was.

Here's what McCreary said, in part, on his blog regarding the use of "All Along the Watchtower":

"[T]he idea was not that Bob Dylan necessarily exists in the characters' universe, but that an artist on one of the colonies may have recorded a song with the exact same melody and lyrics. Perhaps this unknown performer and Dylan pulled inspiration from a common, ethereal source. Therefore, I was told to make no musical references to any 'Earthly' versions, Hendrix, Dylan or any others. The arrangement needed to sound like a pop song that belonged in the Galactica universe, not our own."

(McCreary adds that his version of "All Along the Watchtower" will come out in August, on the Season 3 soundtrack CD. One final digression, there's a recent Salon interview with Ron Moore here.)

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2007/03/but_you_and_i_w.html#more
Chicago Tribune | The Watcher

FreeBaGeL

03-26-07, 05:37 PM

On a totally unrelated note, something came up again in this ep that has me wondering if the actress playing Roslin is misreading her lines, or there just happen to be some errors in her dialog.

If you think back a few episodes to the boxing episode. In between rounds of Adama fighting Tyrol after Adama says he's not going to quit Roslin tells Doc Cottle "Coagulant for the swelling, ice for the bleeding". Kind of.....backwards.

Then in this episode when she is talking to Adama after Baltar wins the vote 3 to 2 and is still under the presumption that Adama voted guilty she says "what happened, you just couldn't sway the 2 other guys or what?". Given that she thought Adama voted guilty that leaves 3 other guys that voted not guilty, not 2. So really, either saying the THREE other guys (to get all the votes) or ONE other guy (to get 3-2 in their favor) would've made sense, but two sits as the only number that doesn't make sense.

Not important, just thought I'd mention it though.

Sean Nelson

03-26-07, 06:06 PM

Given that she thought Adama voted guilty that leaves 3 other guys that voted not guilty, not 2. So really, either saying the THREE other guys (to get all the votes) or ONE other guy (to get 3-2 in their favor) would've made sense, but two sits as the only number that doesn't make sense.I heard it in the sense that she assumed he voted guilty and would have needed to convince at least two others to vote guilty as well.

HDNair

03-26-07, 06:17 PM

Jimi Hendrix, you mean. EDIT: His version is the quintessential version in my book. But they both performed it before I was born, so what do I know? :-)

Which brings up an interesting point. How does these 4 Cylons know the lyrics to a Hendrix song unless they know of/have been to Earth? And if so, that settles quite a few questions about the timeline of their story in regards to Earth's. It's at least the late 1960's on Earth as this story is taking place. It could be decades or centuries later, but it's not earlier.

Dylan wrote the lyrics, if that counts for anything. Like the blog above laid out, I don't think they intended for either Dylan or Hendrix to be incorportated into the BSG Universe, but hey, for the purposes of my joke, Hendrix would work, but Dylan works a tad better. ;)

rezzy

03-26-07, 06:19 PM

Frakkin' great TV. I sat on the edge of the couch the entire episode.

The only way this could even work is if they weren't "created" as Cylons, but rather real people that Cylons were modelled over and then at some point (presumably on New Caprica) the Cylons switched the "fake" Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, and aid for the "real" Tigh, Tyrol, Anders, and aid.I tend to agree.

We know, for sure, four of the final five cylons. It was strongly implied that Kara was the last.We can definitely say we know who four of them are. It was strongly implied that Lee could be the final model also, but that was (IMO) an attempt to throw us viewers off. He looked a bit scatter-brained for a minute, but I think it was just simply shock and awe from the sudden cylon appearance.

IMO, Adama, Roslin and Lee are out, leaving Dee, Gaeta and Starbuck as the remaining cylon candidates. And what was with the "new Baltar resistance"? The co-worker I previously mentioned who believes in Baltar's innocence, is gonna throw that in my face tomorrow. Though, being innocent and being found innocent are two different things.

Palladin

03-26-07, 06:36 PM

Something occurs to me concerning this season when I reflect on that RDM interview with the post-gazette. Assuming that there wasn't a large gap in time before Scifi announced they had decided to pick up the 9 episodes for fourth season, and when they reached an accord with the BSG producers, the decision wasn't finalized until two weeks into February. IOW, the BSG team had no certainty that there'd be a fourth season until like 5 weeks before the third season was to end.

I'd like to think that RDM would appreciate the BSG fan following enough to provide a suitable end to this series, if it was going to get cut at the end of Season 3. Therefore, I could imagine him preparing the series finale to give it a proper send-off, made up of what would become 'Maelstrom' and the two 'Crossroads', followed by a "tie everything together and end it" episode.

But then they got the order for the 9 and then the 13 more eps (perhaps unexpectedly) and realized that the aforementioned eps, while being enough to finish Season 3, would unnecessarily limit their options for what had now become a full Season 4. What do you do?

I think the answer is that they pulled together what have now become the infamous 'filler' eps of this season that many have complained about, with their tangential tales of Helo, Adama & Tyrol. That way, they could give us the set-up for Season 4 at the end of Season 3, but didn't really have to start the 'next chapter' (RDM's phrase, not mine) until the following season.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that I enjoy the rare intelligence of this show so much, that if we had to endure the squandered ‘filler’eps, in order to afford a better Season 4, it was probably worth the price.

Frak, I’m never going to make it to January. :eek:

_______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Iteki

03-26-07, 06:48 PM

Dylan wrote the lyrics, if that counts for anything. Like the blog above laid out, I don't think they intended for either Dylan or Hendrix to be incorportated into the BSG Universe, but hey, for the purposes of my joke, Hendrix would work, but Dylan works a tad better. ;)

I find the whole 'identical songs pulled from the ether by different composers in different times/planets' to be a bit absurd, even for a sci-fi show :-)

So apparently Dylan wasn't original, he was plagiarizing an offworld songwriter :-)

Nice. LOL

I don't think you can introduce a song from our own world and timeline and then just pretend it's a coincidence....at least not without insulting our intelligence, and this show doesn't do that very often.

The only time I've seen this done well is in the Stephen King "Gunslinger" series, where there were many parallel universes and there were 'doors' to/from each that were rips in space/time. Through these doors came people/cultures that didn't belong. As a result, "Hey Jude" was a popular saloon song in the Gunslinger's world while a pop Beatle hit in ours, without saying which was the original (perhaps neither).

RLJ

03-26-07, 07:14 PM

It looked BRAND SPANKING shiny new....interesting.

Exactly!

HDNair

03-26-07, 07:14 PM

I find the whole 'identical songs pulled from the ether by different composers in different times/planets' to be a bit absurd, even for a sci-fi show :-)

I liked the effect of the music, but it did get me thinking about Dylan existing in the BSG universe which was probably not the effect they wanted. The only alternative would of course be for them to write original lyrics. It doesn't seem like it would be difficult for them to find a talented song writer or poet to write evocative lyrics that would fit the theme, but sometimes filmmakers will become fixated on using a particular piece of music, and they can't convince themselves to look for an alternative. At any rate, I did like this version of the song. My search through the internet for an MP3 will commence shortly.

RLJ

03-26-07, 07:17 PM

The Cylons definitely don't know who they are...Lawless' character got boxed for going too far in trying to find out.

That boxing seemed to me more for her doing things on her own and not following the crowd. It was her line that ordered the 1 raider to continue down to the surface to find out what was in the temple. I didn't think that the others besides Baltar really knew what she was doing, only that she was keeping secrets and doing things on her own.

Iteki

03-26-07, 07:18 PM

I liked the effect of the music, but it did get me thinking about Dylan existing in the BSG universe which was probably not the effect they wanted. The only alternative would of course be for them to write original lyrics. It doesn't seem like it would be difficult for them to find a talented song writer or poet to write evocative lyrics that would fit the theme, but sometimes filmmakers will become fixated on using a particular piece of music, and they can't convince themselves to look for an alternative. At any rate, I did like this version of the song. My search through the internet for an MP3 will commence shortly.

From the interviews I read, Moore had the idea for the song at the end of season 1, when Baltar first had his vision in the operahouse. He was supposed to meet God, who looked just like Jimi Hendrix.

So obviously he loves the song and felt it resonated with the storyline and wanted to include it.

I'm ok with it being in the show...it did fit the mood. But saying it's just a coincidental occurence cheapens it for me. Let's hope he was pulling the "composer"'s chain and not giving him too much information.

Workindood

03-26-07, 07:20 PM

Damn, 2008 might as well be 100 years from now! :o

Not if you compare it to waiting for Soprano Seasons...hehe! :p I personally have lost all interest in that show.

Just think by the time we get to see this show with new episodes we will have a whole lot of brand new Christmas Bills to pay off again...

It will be worth the wait as long as it stays true to form and quality...

RLJ

03-26-07, 07:21 PM

Did anyone notice that for the final two episodes, they did away with the usual opening - no "The cylons were built by man..." sequence, no opening music/flashback sequence which would include the pre-episode flashes - they started the episode and then the credits came on early as part of the episode.

Good idea or bad? I know it gets a little repetitve at times.

I have noticed and have been thinking that they are going to do some changes to it, but were going to hold off. Also, this way they could take out Katie's name without changing the intro. Plus, it gave them an additional minute or 2 of show that they could broadcast instead.

RLJ

03-26-07, 07:25 PM

Here is a wild guess that I'll throw out. The Cylon fleet we see at the end isn't from the previous seven Cylons but from the group of Cylons now known as the "final five". That might explain the siren song meant to wakeup the sleepers to help the "final five" team's fleet out at a critical moment. Too confusing?

We have the original seven Cylons out near the 12 colonies and a mystereous group of five Cylons that even the Cylons don't known about. Could they in fact be living out near Earth? Does this imply that the Cylons fractured into two groups sometime in the very distant past? Do they like each other? I'm guessing that they don't. That would make the Galactica a pawn in a very big game between these two groups.

I think this just re-enforces the idea that the so called "final five" Cylons are something very very different from the Cylons we have seen so far.

What if the Galactica didn't get away by chance? That would explain why these sleeper Cylons are all on the Galactica. Maybe the Cylon's have had a plan all along...

Very interesting, I had just started to think that myself, hense why Starbuck said it was going to be okay. That it is actually "her" fleet (final 5), not the "Cylons" (group of 7, now 6) fleet.

RLJ

03-26-07, 07:51 PM

So, if this is the final 5's fleet, who says that they haven't actually evolved since they split from the other 7, and had managed to actually create a race with more then the 5 models? And they put their own sleeper agents into the main Cylon "civilization" (the main 7) and those being Sharon (Athena) and Caprica Six? And the final 5 have actually been waiting where they are for the the rag tag fugitive fleet to catch up to them? Also that they join the human fleet?

Just a thought that stretches from a few "facts", Starbuck actually alive(?), the white light before she "died", the raider she saw before she died, the awaking of these 4 new cylons, Roselin, Caprica and Athena's join dream?

All a stretch, but intriguing anyway.

loco

03-26-07, 08:47 PM

On a totally unrelated note, something came up again in this ep that has me wondering if the actress playing Roslin is misreading her lines, or there just happen to be some errors in her dialog.

If you think back a few episodes to the boxing episode. In between rounds of Adama fighting Tyrol after Adama says he's not going to quit Roslin tells Doc Cottle "Coagulant for the bleeding, ice for the swelling". Kind of.....backwards.

Then in this episode when she is talking to Adama after Baltar wins the vote 3 to 2 and is still under the presumption that Adama voted guilty she says "what happened, you just couldn't sway the 2 other guys or what?". Given that she thought Adama voted guilty that leaves 3 other guys that voted not guilty, not 2. So really, either saying the THREE other guys (to get all the votes) or ONE other guy (to get 3-2 in their favor) would've made sense, but two sits as the only number that doesn't make sense.

Not important, just thought I'd mention it though.

What's wrong with 'coagulant for the bleeding, ice for the swelling'? Not sure I understand what you're getting at. Coagulant stops bleeding. Ice makes swelling go down. ?

As for the line about not being able to sway the other two judges -- yeah, something's wrong there. But I didn't even notice until you said that. So, I guess I can see how it got through. I could never be a continuity person! :o

FreeBaGeL

03-26-07, 10:36 PM

What's wrong with 'coagulant for the bleeding, ice for the swelling'? Not sure I understand what you're getting at. Coagulant stops bleeding. Ice makes swelling go down. ?

Whoops, I posted that wrong (well I posted it the way it was supposed to be, not the way it was incorrectly stated in the episode).

In the episode she actuallys says "coagulant for the swelling, ice for the bleeding".

Heh I guess it was so off I couldn't even say it that way when I tried.

calibos

03-26-07, 10:52 PM

On the whole Dylan lyrics cosmic coincidence thing. By that rationale do we also view the whole Colonies/Earth Greek and Roman God mytholgies as also just another cosmic coincidence because they are patently not a coincidence. I liken hearing "All Along the watch tower" to the Original BSG ep coincidentily featuring the aforementioned Mcnamee where Apollo at the end of the Ep picks up a transmission of.....the Apollo Moon Landings. ie it is our first indication that they are getting close to Earth. The fact that it happens to be a trigger for sleeper cylons is further twist on it....Its not just, "Wow a transmission from Earth" its "Wow a transmission from earth thats used to trigger sleeper cylonc WTF"

Also picking up on another posters good point about this 30 year old song and the speed of light meaning the fleet is at least 30 light years away. They could be 3000 light years away and that 30 year old signal(from our perspective) has been traveling for 3000 years etc. this clears one question I have always had since I contemplated how a re-imagining would deal with finding earth. I figured the writers would have to put their own twist on the "finding the Earth" final Ep/Season. Might they arrive on earth not in our present day like galactica 1980 but say in the middle ages for instance. That can't happen now. They can still arrrive in our present day granted (but that means its a straight copy from the original series) but it also means the other possibility is they arrive in our future as it were. ie They might arrive in our 2500AD for example. That for me seems plausible. Its a twist on the original and could pay homage to another storyline in the original series. Remember Apollo or Starbuck being caught on a long range scouting mission by the Evil Terran Facist/Nazi like Eastern Alliance (Terra was not Earth but where some of the original Thirteenth tribe stopped at and decided to settle while the rest kept going eventually finding Earth. NB* They also turned out to be more advanced than Earth)

Anyway Apollo/Starbuck basically say to their captors, Hey wait till out fleet arrives, You are so in trouble. The Eastern Alliance captor brushes this off proudly procalaiming his Eastern Alliance Battle Cruiser flagship as the match of anything. Eats his words when Galactica pulls into view and dwarfs his "Massive battle Cruiser" which fits inside the Galacticas port Nacelle. Anyway picture this New Series Galactica Arrives at Earth with Cylon fleet in hot pursuit. All seems lost. What have they done leading the cylons to Earth.....Except 2500 AD era Earth Battle Cruiser 5 times as big and as "hard" as Galactica tears the Cylon fleet to shreds.

Works for me!!

I have also been thinking about the whole Greek/Roman Mytholgy thing. Most people take it to mean that Kobol was the birthplace of both Earth Humans and the Colonials. ie thats how we on Earth have Greek Roman Mytholgy and so do the Colonies......Heres the thing. Earth has all the fossils and missing links. Earth was the birthplace of man. Think this ties in with Leobans, "its all happened before and it will all happen again" thing.

Think about it.

Atlanteans, Earths most advance civilisation where the greeks and Romans draw their culture from finally develop AI's (Their Cylons) Defeat by the AI's forces the Atlanteans to flee Earth. They arrive on Cobol and settle there. They lose their advanced Tech and knowledge and when they finally re-develop it they make the same mistake again and develop AIs (Kobol version of Cylons) again. Some flee onward and found the Colonies as we know them. A thirteenth tribe decide to head back to a mythical to them Earth. Hence Starmap to Earth back on Kobol. Same thing happens again on our Galactican colonies. Lose Tech, Regain tech, re-unite colonies etc.....and re-develop AI's (Our cylons)

Opps, We did it again. ie Leobans, "this has all happened before and it will happen again"

aaronwt

03-26-07, 11:01 PM

Let's just wait until 2008 to see what happens.

RLJ

03-26-07, 11:06 PM

RE: calibos - Post 3382, I find that interesting and had thought bits of what you posted. I hadn't taken it as far as you had, but find it a good stretch and we will all have to wait and see how RDM takes it.

MOREPOWER

03-26-07, 11:14 PM

Opps, We did it again. ie Leobans, "this has all happened before and it will happen again"Yeah what he said, I like it!

petergaryr

03-27-07, 08:12 AM

That could work. Though what I'd prefer is as the Cylons come through the nebula in hot pursuit of the RTF, they hear "...arm photon torpedoes" and come face to face with the Enterprise along with several other starships from the United Federation of Planets.

RLJ

03-27-07, 09:20 AM

Or else the Whitestar fleet along with a fleet of Mimbari ships slice through the Cylon fleet. :D

help-r-monkey

03-27-07, 09:28 AM

I have also been thinking about the whole Greek/Roman Mytholgy thing. Most people take it to mean that Kobol was the birthplace of both Earth Humans and the Colonials. ie thats how we on Earth have Greek Roman Mytholgy and so do the Colonies......Heres the thing. Earth has all the fossils and missing links. Earth was the birthplace of man. Think this ties in with Leobans, "its all happened before and it will all happen again" thing.

Funny I was just thinking about this. I made a post a while back about the possibility that the humans have made the trip to and from earth several times during this whole
"its all happened before and it will all happen again" thing.

I also find it a bit ironic that cylons were created to serve man, and now we find that four of the final five are in positions that serve the remaining leaders of the colonies. Heck Tori and Tigh even said as much. I was waiting for them to say "by your command".

Iteki

03-27-07, 09:41 AM

Funny I was just thinking about this. I made a post a while back about the possibility that the humans have made the trip to and from earth several times during this whole

Here's a snippet from an EW.com interview with Eddie Olmos, Mary McDonnell, and Ronald D. Moore:

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Okay, Ron, what was with including Bob Dylan's ''All Along The Watchtower'' in the finale?
RONALD MOORE: I had always had this idea of using that particular song in the show as a marker that there were other things going on here. There was this idea developed early in the series, that one of the Colonial scriptures says, ''All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again,'' that certain elements and situations and even people repeat in a cycle of destruction and rebirth and exodus and chase, etc. One of the ideas I wanted to play was, okay, if you found a song that we, the audience, recognize, you realize that you have a connection to this world too, and suddenly other pieces start to fit. Well, why do they wear suits and ties? Why do they look so much like us? What is the connection between them and us? It would put in stark relief the idea that there is a connection between the people on Galatica and our experience on Earth.

The remainder of the interview can be found here (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20015932,00.html)

Palladin

03-27-07, 10:07 AM

RONALD MOORE....There was this idea developed early in the series, that one of the Colonial scriptures says, ''All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again,'' that certain elements and situations and even people repeat in a cycle of destruction and rebirth and exodus and chase, etc.

Funny I was just thinking about this. I made a post a while back about the possibility that the humans have made the trip to and from earth several times during this whole
its all happened before and it will all happen again" thing.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, you’re not the only one ;) :
In my mind, this is clearly what the whole “This has happened before and it will happen again” mantra has been all about. It seems to suggest an inevitable cyclical pattern that exists surrounding the entire colonists/cylon relationship. Kind of an all-encompassing ‘Groundhog Day’ gestalt, but without Bill Murray’s deadpan humor.

And the clues and markers have purposely been left behind from the initial cycle to ensure the continuity of its repetition. We don’t really know which direction this whole thing started from. It is just as conceivable that it started from the Earth side of the equation, and that it was the humans from our planet who travelled to the colonies, and left hints in their legends/religion for future generations to find the way back home, instead of vice-versa.
___________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Palladin

03-27-07, 10:23 AM

Hey! At least RDM acknowledges what many of us were bitching about, in Iteki's link above:

How do you feel having that many episodes worked for the third season? There was some fan grumbling that some of the more stand-alone episodes in the second half of the season weren't quite as up to Battlestar's high standards.
Yeah, I thought that was a valid criticism, and I think ultimately that provides the answer for the show about how much serialized [episodes we do] versus non-serialized. I don't know that it was a direct result of there being 20 episodes instead of 13, but certainly having a longer order, we said, okay, maybe there's a few here that are more stand-alone and are more accessible to people who aren't following the story as [closely]. There were a couple of good ones in those stand-alones, but by and large I'd say our serialized storytelling is more successful.

So is that what you're aiming for with your fourth season?
It will be a serialized show to an extent. I think what we talked about with the network — because their concern is the drop-off in viewers and giving too many hurdles for new viewers to overcome to watch the show — we're always going to try to provide at least an episodic quality to each show. Even though there are plotlines that are ongoing over the course of the whole season, we'll try to give you something in each episode that you can hold on to that starts and stops within that episode.

______________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

petergaryr

03-27-07, 10:34 AM

Or else the Whitestar fleet along with a fleet of Mimbari ships slice through the Cylon fleet. :D

That would be difficult: Delenn is stuck on an island somewhere in the Pacific calling herself "Danielle" these days. :D

humdinger70

03-27-07, 12:58 PM

Wouldn't it be a hoot that in season 4, the Cylons and the humans will come to realize that they need each other, and it will be to combat an even greater threat (not yet seen) that threatens both?

lax01

03-27-07, 01:01 PM

Wouldn't it be a hoot that in season 4, the Cylons and the humans will come to realize that they need each other, and it will be to combat an even greater threat (not yet seen) that threatens both?

like The Alliance??? :D

loco

03-27-07, 01:12 PM

Whoops, I posted that wrong (well I posted it the way it was supposed to be, not the way it was incorrectly stated in the episode).

In the episode she actuallys says "coagulant for the swelling, ice for the bleeding".

Heh I guess it was so off I couldn't even say it that way when I tried.

OK, gotcha. That is all kinds of wrong. Maybe Mary McDonnell really does do 'chamalla'! :D

tripleM

03-27-07, 03:34 PM

Here's a snippet from an EW.com interview with Eddie Olmos, Mary McDonnell, and Ronald D. Moore:

The remainder of the interview can be found here (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20015932,00.html)

Okay the ONLY revelation I care about: when did Anders & Tory hook up??!! :eek:

Iteki

03-27-07, 03:36 PM

Okay the ONLY revelation I care about: when did Anders & Tory hook up??!! :eek:

They traded some kind of flirtatious look the previous episode, but they went straight to sex in the officer's quarters. Seelix sure seemed PISSED...is it because she feels he is betraying Kara's memory by moving on too soon, or because she wants him herself, or both? Not that it really matters.

pappy97

03-27-07, 03:37 PM

Have any of you read this blog review of the season finale? It shows there are TONS of holes in the season finale we just watched:

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/03/27/143829.php

TV Review: Battlestar Galactica - Season 3 Finale
Written by TV and Film Guy
Published March 27, 2007

Let’s get something straight right off the bat, people: simply having a pretty good cliffhanger at the end of an episode, particularly a season finale, doesn’t make up for boring the audience for the previous 45 minutes.

That’s right, today we’re talking about the seasonal finale of Battlestar Galactica (and don’t read the rest of this if you don’t want to know the twists and reveals, because it’s what we’re talking about). So little that happened in the first three-fourths of the episode was interesting. I will completely accept that Lee Adama’s speech was great during the Baltar trial, but there are a couple of huge problems with it.

First, the immediate one, Lee testified in order to give evidence for a mistrial, which not only did he not do, but the show completely ignored the move for the mistrial upon the conclusion of his testimony. Apparently the judges forgot why Lee was testifying to begin with. They never said yea or nay to the motion for a mistrial, they just proceeded as though Lee had simply been giving testimony like any other witness. That’s really weak writing and hugely disturbing for a show that usually incredibly well-written.

The second problem with the scene is that Lee brings up the fact that President Roslin issued a blanket pardon for all crimes committed on New Caprica. This is true. Roslin did issue said pardon. Baltar however is on trial for crimes committed on New Caprica, crimes that Roslin’s blanket pardon must have included. Excuse me while I get incredulous for a moment here, but how is it possible that no one on the Galactica, no one in the Colonial Fleet, and not one of the writers or producers or stars of this show stood up and said before this moment something along the lines of: pardon me, but how is it possible that Baltar could be on trial for crimes for which he was already pardoned. Furthermore, when he is acquitted by a vote of 3-2, it is never explained how two judges could have voted to convict someone who was already pardoned of the crimes for which they were on trial.

To steal from the show, what the frak? This is another ridiculously large example of poor writing. And, what’s more disturbing about it, is that so much of the latter half of this season of the show has been leading to trial which should never be allowed to happen. It’s really quite sad. Did Roslin’s blanket pardon not include Baltar? I don’t recall her saying “I hereby pardon everyone for everything that happened on New Caprica save Gaius Baltar because gods damn it, we’ll have nothing to do for the rest of the season.”

Diehard fans, and people looking to absolve the show of all sins will state that Roslin’s blanket pardon was for everyone in the fleet, and at the time the pardon was issued Baltar was not physically in the fleet, he was with the Cylons. However, as a survivor of the Twelve Colonies, and as a one of the last members of the human race, Baltar is unquestionably, a member of the fleet, which Roslin used as a stand-in for all of humanity anyway. Baltar was included in the pardon.

I’m trying so hard to like this show. I used to really, really enjoy it. But, my faith is being sorely tested here. Perhaps the showrunners realized the huge problem with the Baltar trial too late, and the cliffhanger ending and the possible reveal of four of the “Final Five” was thrown in to make up for it. I’m just not sure though.

We don’t know that those four people are really four of the Final Five Cylons either. We don’t know what they felt or what led them to that conclusion. We also don’t know if something happened to them during their time on New Caprica (or maybe even old Caprica for those that were there) to later make them think they were Cylons. It’s unclear. It’s unproven. Okay, it’s interesting and it’s enough to keep me watching, but it was only one of the two cliffhangers we were given.

The final cliffhanger, the return of Starbuck, worries me (yes, again, I’m worried). Katee Sackhoff (Starbuck) has signed on to guest star in NBC’s Bionic Woman pilot. She’s not the lead, but she is in it and if it gets picked up, she may end up as a regular. Okay, that’s a lot of “ifs,” and both shows are all part of the NBC-Universal family, so something could be worked out wherein Sackhoff could appear regular on both, but that could be like NBC and HBO saying not to worry, sure Drea de Matteo can be on Joey and The Sopranos a couple of weeks before she gets whacked.

And, lastly on this score, I thought getting rid of her character was fantastic. I was so incredibly tired of Starbuck’s whining. Every season she seemed to go further and further downhill as one trauma in her past after another was revealed. Every season these traumas would be resolved, Starbuck would act like a real human being for a couple of episodes, and then she’d sink deeper into her self-loathing quagmire. I was happy when her head finally went below the surface of her self-made swamp. She can come back, I’m okay with that, but only if she gets reworked.

I can accept the poor-writing and ill-conceived plotlines we dealt with this season in Battlestar Galactica, but what could turn me off the show next season is 22 episodes of Starbuck playing the poor little mistreated viper jock.

So, in closing, I look forward to next season, I still have faith that the show can return to a better time. I hope that the Colonial Fleet finds Earth, that they destroy the Cylons, and that the Final Five are truly revealed.

But, much like how the Fleet must feel, while I have hope, I also sense a darkness coming.

Iteki

03-27-07, 03:46 PM

Just occurred to me that Deanna met Anders on Caprica, when he was trapped in the basement with her, Boomer, and Six (nothing but Cylons in the room). Deanna may have been apologizing to him....

tripleM

03-27-07, 03:53 PM

They traded some kind of flirtatious look the previous episode, but they went straight to sex in the officer's quarters. Seelix sure seemed PISSED...is it because she feels he is betraying Kara's memory by moving on too soon, or because she wants him herself, or both? Not that it really matters.

I must've missed that. Will have to pull from the TiVo's delete box. Thanks Iteki.

tripleM

03-27-07, 04:02 PM

pappy97

03-27-07, 04:12 PM

This point has been confirmed by the show's creator Ron Moore. Now whether they are pure bred or hybrids or mutants, is open for debate.

Was this point discussed by Moore:

"The second problem with the scene is that Lee brings up the fact that President Roslin issued a blanket pardon for all crimes committed on New Caprica. This is true. Roslin did issue said pardon. Baltar however is on trial for crimes committed on New Caprica, crimes that Roslin’s blanket pardon must have included. Excuse me while I get incredulous for a moment here, but how is it possible that no one on the Galactica, no one in the Colonial Fleet, and not one of the writers or producers or stars of this show stood up and said before this moment something along the lines of: pardon me, but how is it possible that Baltar could be on trial for crimes for which he was already pardoned. Furthermore, when he is acquitted by a vote of 3-2, it is never explained how two judges could have voted to convict someone who was already pardoned of the crimes for which they were on trial.

To steal from the show, what the frak? This is another ridiculously large example of poor writing. And, what’s more disturbing about it, is that so much of the latter half of this season of the show has been leading to trial which should never be allowed to happen. It’s really quite sad. Did Roslin’s blanket pardon not include Baltar? I don’t recall her saying “I hereby pardon everyone for everything that happened on New Caprica save Gaius Baltar because gods damn it, we’ll have nothing to do for the rest of the season.”

Diehard fans, and people looking to absolve the show of all sins will state that Roslin’s blanket pardon was for everyone in the fleet, and at the time the pardon was issued Baltar was not physically in the fleet, he was with the Cylons. However, as a survivor of the Twelve Colonies, and as a one of the last members of the human race, Baltar is unquestionably, a member of the fleet, which Roslin used as a stand-in for all of humanity anyway. Baltar was included in the pardon."

This kind of plot hole really bothers me in retrospect.

tripleM

03-27-07, 05:15 PM

Was this point discussed by Moore:

"The second problem with the scene is that Lee brings up the fact that President Roslin issued a blanket pardon for all crimes committed on New Caprica. This is true. Roslin did issue said pardon. Baltar however is on trial for crimes committed on New Caprica, crimes that Roslin’s blanket pardon must have included. Excuse me while I get incredulous for a moment here, but how is it possible that no one on the Galactica, no one in the Colonial Fleet, and not one of the writers or producers or stars of this show stood up and said before this moment something along the lines of: pardon me, but how is it possible that Baltar could be on trial for crimes for which he was already pardoned. Furthermore, when he is acquitted by a vote of 3-2, it is never explained how two judges could have voted to convict someone who was already pardoned of the crimes for which they were on trial.

This kind of plot hole really bothers me in retrospect.

No.

& if I can add my opinion: if we think about this logically, we as humans can barely understand the law currently, much less practice it judiciously. Therefore, how can we expect the last remnants of a human race gathered in a tube traveling through space be able to grasp all of the laws' complexities? Even if it may seem simple or trivial, this is isn't Noah's best 2 of each kind in this armada.

I think in my following post, I take RDM's attitude that if it doesn't affect the outcome of the plot, it's is not important enough to spend valuable time on.
We have to suspend some plot continuity. I mean do you really remember every1 of your own life's detail as much as you do of this show's (ie Get a life)?

Iteki

03-27-07, 05:15 PM

tripleM

03-27-07, 05:25 PM

There is a RonMoore 20 questions Q&A posted on the BSG SciFi board right now that he answered last night. A couple of people touched on plot continuity & logic & basically he said :

Question:
Sure, I'll take a shot. When, exactly, in the creative process did you decide that the story need not be bound by any of the elements that it had previously established?

RonMoore:
I take the continuity of the show and the consistancy of the universe we've created quite seriously, but I don't feel that one must be a puritan in this regard. We have a covenant with the audience to keep as regards honoring the history we've established and we all strive mightily to keep it week after week. However, I will not be hamstrung by an off-hand reference to an event being on a Tuesday if later I need that event to take place on a Wednesday -- if the initial reference has no real bearing on the show. If Captain Kirk says that he's from the United Earth Space Probe Agency one week and calls it the United Federation of Planets another week, I'm willing to grant him that license in pursuit of constructing a better and stronger series universe. I won't consider changes that I think change the fundamentals of what's important to me in the series, but I am willing to make compromises around the margins. The difficulty comes when you, the audience, feel that I've changed something important and that it has a destructive impact on the show and damages your viewing experience. In that instance, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I simply look at the show from a different perspective than you do and I guess your mileage does indeed, vary.

Iteki

03-27-07, 05:42 PM

There is a RonMoore 20 questions Q&A posted on the BSG SciFi board right now that he answered last night.

Here's a link (http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2270103)

rezzy

03-27-07, 06:51 PM

RLJ

03-27-07, 08:33 PM

That would be difficult: Delenn is stuck on an island somewhere in the Pacific calling herself "Danielle" these days. :D
I never knew. But then again, I don't watch that show.

MOREPOWER

03-27-07, 08:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RLJ

Starbuck from a parallel universe? Or maybe they caught up with the past. I really dislike that 'this all has happened before stuff'. Sounds to much like the [i]Matrix to myself. And if they pull a 'Neo' and make peace with the machines....! :mad:
I think thats exactly whats going to happen (they make peace with them) I think in the end they find out they're one in the same reaching for the same heaven the real humans are just closer to they're goal, coarse that would suck nah lets just have them fight, no need to replay old stuff (Babylon 5)

RLJ

03-27-07, 08:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RLJ
Well since Lee was running probably heavy on the throttle and Kara just blew by him the first time, I think that her ship might be faster. Also, it can look like all the others, but be a complete sleeper. Guess we will have to see how it does in season 4 when the battle begins.

Starbuck from a parallel universe? Or maybe they caught up with the past. I really dislike that 'this all has happened before stuff'. Sounds to much like the Matrix to myself. And if they pull a 'Neo' and make peace with the machines....! :mad:
So then Starbuck and the remaining 5 Cylon's fleet was waiting there for the humans to come along as they had stopped there before and would again? Actually, you never know. My "money" is still down that this Cylon fleet is not part of the one that has been chasing them since the destruction of the colonies, but the fleet of the remaining 5 cylons. Read an earlier post where I expanded on this.

jonnyozero3

03-27-07, 09:40 PM

The second problem with the scene is that Lee brings up the fact that President Roslin issued a blanket pardon for all crimes committed on New Caprica. This is true. Roslin did issue said pardon. Baltar however is on trial for crimes committed on New Caprica, crimes that Roslin’s blanket pardon must have included. Excuse me while I get incredulous for a moment here, but how is it possible that no one on the Galactica, no one in the Colonial Fleet, and not one of the writers or producers or stars of this show stood up and said before this moment something along the lines of: pardon me, but how is it possible that Baltar could be on trial for crimes for which he was already pardoned. Furthermore, when he is acquitted by a vote of 3-2, it is never explained how two judges could have voted to convict someone who was already pardoned of the crimes for which they were on trial.

One comment - did you notice this before it was mentioned in the show? Be honest.

Seriously - sure Roslin issued a pardon, but it makes sense that *everyone* would think Baltar needed to be tried for his crimes. I never thought about the pardon applying to Baltar until Lee mentioned it, and I thought it was a damn good point. I also thought it was completely natural for it not to be brought up until it was.

Don't think in black and white logic - think like a person in that situation. Would you even begin to imagine that the man 'responsible' for the situation on NC would have been pardoned and not due for trial?

humdinger70

03-27-07, 09:58 PM

The thing about the revelation on who is now a Cylon, especially Col. Tigh, brought back a remembrance, and possibly a spoiler (?) into what's coming up next.

For some reason, I remembered some stuff I saw in one of those old cheesy 1950s era sci-fi movies. It was about a society that had built robots to serve them. They started out as model #1, which looked like your basic clunky mechanical man robot. They got better at it and the next models started looking more and more like humans and the model numbers went higher, accordingly. Basically, the scale ran from 1 to 100, where a model 100 was a perfect human being.

Now one of the people in the society, an official of some sort, had a an absolute hatred of these mechanical beings, he called them "clickers". At one point, when one of the clickers got a little too uppity, he gouged out the eyes of said clicker, insulting them that they could never be real humans. Another clicker that had observed all this started laughing. When the clicker-hater inquired about what was so funny, he couldn't reply because his programming forbade it.

From time to time, these units reported to a central station where they would report on what was happening. One day, the clicker-hater, not by his own conscious choice, found himself in this said station reporting on his happenings. When he finished, he woke up and to his horror, found out he himself was a clicker, a model 96 - the closest to human that had ever been created. The facility manager, who observed all this explained that humans had wiped themselves out with war and the remaining humans and robots did what they could to patch up society to make it work again.

The manager said he could make this fellow and his friends like him, into real humans (bump up to a model 100). Was this possible? Sure, we do it all the time he said, and then, looking right into the camera (and apparently at us) said: "That's why you're out there."

Now I know I've left a lot of things out (I wrote what I could remember of the plot), but wouldn't it be a hoot if Ron and David had based everything that's been done and what's coming in season 4 on this piece of dreck?

By the way, any of you film buffs know what this film was (Title? Cast?)

EmptyPocketsCarl

03-27-07, 10:32 PM

Mr. Hanky

03-27-07, 10:36 PM

"Clicker" and "toaster" do have an awfully similar ring...coincidence?

EmptyPocketsCarl

03-27-07, 10:59 PM

From a TVWeek interview...

TVWeek: There's a real difference watching "BSG" on Sci Fi and when it airs on UHD months later in HD and 5.1 Surround Sound. Has this lag time been frustrating that viewers aren't watching the original airings the way it was shot?
Mr. Moore: I don't see it that way. We don't cut it in HD. When I sit in the Avid room, it's not in HD. As a practical day-to-day matter, there's no reason for me to be watching it in HD. ... When it comes out on UHD months later, I'm usually sort of surprised. "It's gorgeous! Look at that, you can see the reflection on the glass and everything." My head isn't geared toward HD at all.

I just lost all respect for that dude!!!!

HDNair

03-28-07, 12:45 AM

I wound up getting the soundtracks for season 1 and 2, and listening to the music on it's own, it's striking how great some of the music from this series is. I always enjoyed the music but it just kind of blended so well with what was going on that I never thought to seek it out until recently, but they really found a great composer in Bear McCreary. So much of the music from television shows is so generic, if BSG had fallen in that trap the series really would have lost something, though I don't think there was ever a danger of that happening. Nevertheless, McCreary deserves a lot of credit for helping this show maintain the level of quality and uniqueness that it has.

jonnyozero3

03-28-07, 09:50 AM

From a TVWeek interview...

I just lost all respect for that dude!!!!

I saw that and wasn't too happy - but, I can forgive him. If he shoots his stuff well enough in SD that it is amazing in HD...I can't fault the guy at all. It just means he's good, and he has other people on his staff that make sure the HD version comes out looking good. As it does.

Think of the bright side - at least he isn't George Lucas and all that matters is special effects. At least he does more with the dialog than write it on a bar napkin or make it up along the way....

ragtop13

03-28-07, 10:59 AM

Iteki

03-28-07, 11:05 AM

If memory serves... I think in the original BSG (yeah I admit it... :o ), Starbuck gets marrooned on a planet and is given up for dead....but then comes back to the fleet...don't remember all of the details (memory issue thing :eek: )...but as it has been said before...this all has happened before... :confused: mmmmmmmm......

Only his child came back, if I remember correctly. He and the 'baby mama' (who supposedly died as well, but was reborn? She wasn't human, that's for sure) remained stranded on the planet. The child became an Oracle of sorts...boy genius. It has been a while, I could be wrong.

tripleM

03-28-07, 11:31 AM

They traded some kind of flirtatious look the previous episode, but they went straight to sex in the officer's quarters. Seelix sure seemed PISSED...is it because she feels he is betraying Kara's memory by moving on too soon, or because she wants him herself, or both? Not that it really matters.

Iteki: the only time this was referenced was on RDM's podcast for Part1 of CrossRoads. Otherwise, I saw the supposed look @ the bar in Part1, & it was more to do with the Watchtower song ringing in their ears. No coital contact afterwards.

petergaryr

03-28-07, 12:17 PM

Only his child came back, if I remember correctly. He and the 'baby mama' (who supposedly died as well, but was reborn? She wasn't human, that's for sure) remained stranded on the planet. The child became an Oracle of sorts...boy genius. It has been a while, I could be wrong.

Yes, the legendary Dr. Zee --- a great example of why animals sometimes eat their own.

The Return of Starbuck, however, as a episode was actually very good in an Enemy Mine sort of way.

Iteki

03-28-07, 12:49 PM

Iteki: the only time this was referenced was on RDM's podcast for Part1 of CrossRoads. Otherwise, I saw the supposed look @ the bar in Part1, & it was more to do with the Watchtower song ringing in their ears. No coital contact afterwards.

Sorry, I'm working from memory only here, I no longer have the ep. This finale will probably stay on my DVR until 2008 however :-)

keenan

03-28-07, 12:57 PM

Sorry, I'm working from memory only here, I no longer have the ep. This finale will probably stay on my DVR until 2008 however :-)
:D

I'm going to keep it until UHD airs the HD version then I'll keep that one until 2008. :p

help-r-monkey

03-28-07, 12:59 PM

They traded some kind of flirtatious look the previous episode, but they went straight to sex in the officer's quarters. Seelix sure seemed PISSED...is it because she feels he is betraying Kara's memory by moving on too soon, or because she wants him herself, or both? Not that it really matters.

If you notice in the previous ep. Anders is playing a pyramide type game with seelix and they are flirting. I think she is jealous, about him and Tori.

Iteki

03-28-07, 01:06 PM

tripleM

03-28-07, 01:19 PM

If you notice in the previous ep. Anders is playing a pyramide type game with seelix and they are flirting. I think she is jealous, about him and Tori.

Yeah, but was it because she caught him looking @ another girl or that she knew something was going on?

Cause nowhere is it implied that they hooked up. & all of the above occurred while that blasted song was scratching on the boom box @ the bar.

Also: when President Rosalyn scolded her about doing her job in front of the press, what was the reference to getting some1 who can put a comb through her hair?? Was that implying Tory looked disheveled ? Which could also lead 1 to think she was having sleep nights due to her having the same head music issues as the others & not that Tory's been boot knocking.

Man, I'm starting to overanalyze details like those geeks with no life on the SciFi forum :p :D

RDK006

03-28-07, 01:22 PM

You mean other than we all got riped off for watching the whole season and now you get a bone that has to last a whole year. :mad: This wasn't very good dam Boltar trial took all the time.
Man, some of you guys are so frakin' negative! This was one of the best seasons of a TV show that I've ever seen. The first 5-6 eps were stunning, this finale was positively shocking, and I even enjoyed the so-called "filler" episodes for how they focused on lesser characters and gave us a chance to see more of the inner workings of the ships.

RDK006

03-28-07, 01:46 PM

Opps, We did it again.
Okay, I can accept Dylan and Hendrix in the BG universe but not Britney Spears! :D

timltucker

03-28-07, 02:29 PM

I think thats exactly whats going to happen (they make peace with them) I think in the end they find out they're one in the same reaching for the same heaven the real humans are just closer to they're goal, coarse that would suck nah lets just have them fight, no need to replay old stuff (Babylon 5)

You know that the whole "This has happened before and will happen again" verse is lifted from the beginning of the original "Peter Pan" movie narration (the original Disney version released in 1953). I have never seen the original novel by J. M. Barrie so I have no idea if it starts off with the same verse but it seems likely.

I wonder if this tells us something about where all of this might be headed for BSG? The parallels to Galactica are interesting where the "children" go on a wild and dangerous journey to a far away place and we find out in the end that the parents did too when they were young...and the cycle repeats again and again.

pappy97

03-28-07, 02:36 PM

One comment - did you notice this before it was mentioned in the show? Be honest.

Seriously - sure Roslin issued a pardon, but it makes sense that *everyone* would think Baltar needed to be tried for his crimes. I never thought about the pardon applying to Baltar until Lee mentioned it, and I thought it was a damn good point. I also thought it was completely natural for it not to be brought up until it was.

Don't think in black and white logic - think like a person in that situation. Would you even begin to imagine that the man 'responsible' for the situation on NC would have been pardoned and not due for trial?

I didn't write that blog entry, so I don't know if the original person noticed it before it being mentioned, but I think so.

It didn't make sense to me, because I never thought Baltar committed any crimes.

I don't even think Baltar is the man responsible for the situation on New Caprica.

After all, he was duly elected on a platform to settle on that planet. In fact Roslin tried to fix the election. The citizens in the fleet wanted to live on that planet more than anybody.

It wasn't his fault that the Cylon's found out the location of the planet.

And when the Cylons landed, he had no choice but to surrender.

Even if you disagree (Which is fine), these points could have been explored, not just in the finale, but throughout the season. Instead we got weak filler episodes and a lot of these points got lost because it all had to be squeezed into Lee's speech in the season finale.

loco

03-28-07, 02:39 PM

Also: when President Rosalyn scolded her about doing her job in front of the press, what was the reference to getting some1 who can put a comb through her hair?? Was that implying Tory looked disheveled ? Which could also lead 1 to think she was having sleep nights due to her having the same head music issues as the others & not that Tory's been boot knocking.

Man, I'm starting to overanalyze details like those geeks with no life on the SciFi forum :p :D

According to RDM's podcast, there was a scene cut from the Crossroads I episode that involved Roslin confronting Tory about her relationship with Anders. He didn't go into great detail about it, but apparently Roslin was cautioning her because 'a lot of people in the fleet thought his wife was a hero and were upset about her death' or something to that effect.

loco

03-28-07, 02:41 PM

It wasn't his fault that the Cylon's found out the location of the planet.

I agree with the rest of your post, but don't forget about the nuke Baltar gave Gina. The nuclear explosion that took out Cloud 9 is what caused the Cylons to find New Caprica, so it was at least indirectly Baltar's fault.

pappy97

03-28-07, 02:42 PM

I agree with the rest of your post, but don't forget about the nuke Baltar gave Gina. The nuclear explosion that took out Cloud 9 is what caused the Cylons to find New Caprica, so it was at least indirectly Baltar's fault.

Good point, but Baltar did not knowingly give the nuke to Gina so that the Cylons could find New Caprica.

Palladin

03-28-07, 03:32 PM

:D

I'm going to keep it until UHD airs the HD version then I'll keep that one until 2008. :p
Good point...I did the same with Exodus...still have that one saved and protected in HD on my Dish Vip622...not going anywhere anytime soon. :-)
Same here. Still have UHD cuts of Pegasus and Resurrection Ship(s), along with Exodus I & II. UHD Crossroads II will probably end up on the DVR as well, just so I can compare where we left off and the kick-off of season 4. Recently had to ditch Downloaded (another personal favorite) as BSG and Heroes have been battling for the measly hours of HD space on the DVR.

Good point, but Baltar did not knowingly give the nuke to Gina so that the Cylons could find New Caprica.
Now that you mention it, I’ve forgotten the reason. Why the hell did Baltar give Gina the nuke in the first place anyway??

______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

loco

03-28-07, 03:58 PM

LOL, who knows why he gave the nuke to Gina? The message he sent with it was that it was a symbol of his sincerity towards her.

pappy97 - No, he didn't know the nuke would be used to give away their location, but he certainly must have known that nothing good could come of giving a nuke to a Cylon. What did he think she'd do with it? It was by far the worst thing he's done, and the most inexcusable.

tripleM

03-28-07, 04:14 PM

The second problem with the scene is that Lee brings up the fact that President Roslin issued a blanket pardon for all crimes committed on New Caprica. This is true. Roslin did issue said pardon. Baltar however is on trial for crimes committed on New Caprica, crimes that Roslin’s blanket pardon must have included. Excuse me while I get incredulous for a moment here, but how is it possible that no one on the Galactica, no one in the Colonial Fleet, and not one of the writers or producers or stars of this show stood up and said before this moment something along the lines of: pardon me, but how is it possible that Baltar could be on trial for crimes for which he was already pardoned. Furthermore, when he is acquitted by a vote of 3-2, it is never explained how two judges could have voted to convict someone who was already pardoned of the crimes for which they were on trial.

Back to this topic & since I haven't watched the episodes again yet:

Are we sure it was only for the NC crimes & not for the OC's crimes? That's why they brought in the stuff about Rosalyn seeing him hanging out with the OC 6 prior to the nuking.

Iteki

03-28-07, 04:45 PM

Now that you mention it, I’ve forgotten the reason. Why the hell did Baltar give Gina the nuke in the first place anyway??

______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Because he's a pissant. When Roslin thought she was dying she left him a letter advising him to correct his character flaws for the good of the Fleet/Human Race. He took it personally and shipped the nuke to the 'resistance' in an act of petulance. Why he thought giving a Cylon a nuke wouldn't end badly I don't know why lol

rezzy

03-28-07, 05:57 PM

Pappy becomes the second person I've heard to declare Baltar's innocence. As already mentioned, a co-worker of mine was the first. Maybe there'll be some big reveal next season, and he's innocent afterall. *shrugs* I'd sure like to know where he was rushed off to, though.

RDK006

03-28-07, 06:21 PM

"Innocent or guilty?" I'm frankly surprised that this is such an issue. BG is one of the few shows where such things are not so clear cut - as Lee's speech/testimony made pretty obvious.

Let's each ask ourselves this: was Baltar "guilty" of signing that execution order at the end? Yeah, he did it, but only under duress, with a gun to his head. (A point, btw, that Gaita lied about - which should make for some great drama between them next season.) I thought Lee made some very good points, and I'll have to admit that I'd probably find Baltar "not guilty" as well - which as Adama pointed out isn't at all the same as "innocent."

archiguy

03-28-07, 06:32 PM

Good point...I did the same with Exodus...still have that one saved and protected in HD on my Dish Vip622...not going anywhere anytime soon. :-)

Add me to the list of those who've given that episode a "permanent" home. What a shame there's no active firewire on my SA8300 DVR so that I could dump it off to tape. Can't understand why IEEE 1394 died such an ignoble death... :(

archiguy

03-28-07, 06:35 PM

MOREPOWER

03-28-07, 06:37 PM

Baltar is Innocent of deliberately selling out the human race.
He's more Innocent than Dr Smith in "Lost in space" the original that guy was guilty.

loco

03-28-07, 11:09 PM

archiguy, it's true that Starbuck's voice sounded clear part of the time. But at first, it's definitely fuzzy, like it's being heard over the radio. I'm not sure we can draw any conclusions from that.

johnbe

03-28-07, 11:42 PM

Her ship showed up on Dradis, though, which has me befuddled.

Did her ship show up on Dradis? Helo (or someone, not sure) asked who was in viper #3? Lee responded he was in that viper. Lee then mentioned the bogey and went after it. So Galactica may not have even seen Starbuck's viper. That's how I saw the scene.

michaeltscott

03-28-07, 11:56 PM

Just to add one thing to the discussion of the season finale: Notice how "clear" Starbuck's voice was at the end when she was telling Lee about Earth? Not the raspy radio voice we always hear when they're talking ship-to-ship. No, methinks Lee heard her in his head, somehow, which leads me to believe she wasn't really there, a la Baltar's Six. Her ship showed up on Dradis, though, which has me befuddled.I just watched that again; when Lee says "Galactica I'm in Viper 3, I have a bogey on my 10, I'm gonna go check it out", the camera is close in on his cockpit and his voice is crystal clear. When the camera is on Starbuck's cockpit, her voice is clear; we cut back to Lee's cockpit as she continues to speak and her voice is raspy, as heard through Lee's radio. They then cut back to Starbuck's cockpit and her voice is again clear.

Her ship showing up on dradis doesn't mean much; they only showed it on Lee's screen and he's been known to hallucinate while flying now and then :).

That was a horrible version of "All Along the Watchtower". I guess that they couldn't get permission to use Hendrix. Of course, many of the audience would have recognized it too early on if they had.

michaeltscott

03-29-07, 12:16 AM

You know that the whole "This has happened before and will happen again" verse is lifted from the beginning of the original "Peter Pan" movie narration (the original Disney version released in 1953). I have never seen the original novel by J. M. Barrie so I have no idea if it starts off with the same verse but it seems likely.The entire text of that novel is online at Project Gutenberg, here (http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext91/peter16.txt); it does not start that way.

aaronwt

03-29-07, 12:55 AM

I just watched that again; when Lee says "Galactica I'm in Viper 3, I have a bogey on my 10, I'm gonna go check it out", the camera is close in on his cockpit and his voice is crystal clear. When the camera is on Starbuck's cockpit, her voice is clear; we cut back to Lee's cockpit as she continues to speak and her voice is raspy, as heard through Lee's radio. They then cut back to Starbuck's cockpit and her voice is again clear.

Her ship showing up on dradis doesn't mean much; they only showed it on Lee's screen and he's been known to hallucinate while flying now and then :).

That was a horrible version of "All Along the Watchtower". I guess that they couldn't get permission to use Hendrix. Of course, many of the audience would have recognized it too early on if they had.
It costs money. I'm sure it would have cost alot more to use the Hendrix version if thats what they even would have wanted to do. I doubt they have the budget for something like that.

HDNair

03-29-07, 02:50 AM

That was a horrible version of "All Along the Watchtower". I guess that they couldn't get permission to use Hendrix. Of course, many of the audience would have recognized it too early on if they had.

I don't think they would have wanted to use Hendrix's or Dylan's version even if money wasn't a question. They wanted a version of the song that fit in with the aural atmosphere already established on the show.

But to each his own, while I didn't think the vocalization was very good, I thought the instrumentation by Bear McCreary was excellent. But I love just about everything McCreary has done with this series.

keenan

03-29-07, 03:51 AM

I don't think they would have wanted to use Hendrix's or Dylan's version even if money wasn't a question. They wanted a version of the song that fit in with the aural atmosphere already established on the show.

But to each his own, while I didn't think the vocalization was very good, I thought the instrumentation by Bear McCreary was excellent. But I love just about everything McCreary has done with this series.
That was the idea, they didn't want it to be instantly recognizable, they wanted to put out the idea that someone, somewhere else may have come up with a similar song. It wasn't supposed to be an exact rendition by an easily familiar artist.

RLJ

03-29-07, 07:59 AM

David F

03-29-07, 09:03 AM

I don't think they would have wanted to use Hendrix's or Dylan's version even if money wasn't a question. They wanted a version of the song that fit in with the aural atmosphere already established on the show.

But to each his own, while I didn't think the vocalization was very good, I thought the instrumentation by Bear McCreary was excellent. But I love just about everything McCreary has done with this series.

I watched this again last night, and I'm really itching to get this song. Agree the vocals are weak, but it's so spooky and weird I just loved it!

Iteki

03-29-07, 09:19 AM

Baltar is Innocent of deliberately selling out the human race.
He's more Innocent than Dr Smith in "Lost in space" the original that guy was guilty.

He's 'not guilty' of the charges they levied against him...if they only knew about his original betrayal (deliberate or not), he'd be screwed. And he deliberately gave a known hostile Cylon (Pegasus Six) a nuke, which she used to kill over 10,000 people. I can only hope his time will come.... and that he whimpers alot when it does

Iteki

03-29-07, 09:20 AM

It costs money. I'm sure it would have cost alot more to use the Hendrix version if thats what they even would have wanted to do. I doubt they have the budget for something like that.

They were going for a different sound...hendrix but if he lived in their culture. They used a lot of Eastern instruments (sithars, etc).

Iteki

03-29-07, 09:21 AM

But to each his own, while I didn't think the vocalization was very good, I thought the instrumentation by Bear McCreary was excellent. But I love just about everything McCreary has done with this series.

The vocalist is the composer's brother...so nepotism at work there. I agree they could have gotten a better voice for the song.

aaronwt

03-29-07, 11:17 AM

I'm considering buying the soundtrack for the third season when it's released later this year.

aaronwt

03-29-07, 11:23 AM

HDNair

03-29-07, 06:15 PM

Heck I just went ahead and ordered the soundtrack for seasons 1 and 2. I had a $25 Amazon reward certificate so I figured I might as well use it for something different than my usual HD DVD/BD purchases.

That's a very good buy. I just got them earlier this week and I've been listening to it a lot. You can't quite appreciate how rich the music is unless you listen to it on it's own.

pappy97

03-29-07, 06:24 PM

Back to this topic & since I haven't watched the episodes again yet:

Are we sure it was only for the NC crimes & not for the OC's crimes? That's why they brought in the stuff about Rosalyn seeing him hanging out with the OC 6 prior to the nuking.

If you watch the first episode of the 2 parter, you'll see the prosecutor saying she won't try Gaius for any crimes on OC, although Rosalyn really wanted the prosecutor to do so.

pappy97

03-29-07, 06:25 PM

EmptyPocketsCarl

03-29-07, 06:34 PM

Now here is a thought, since all of this has happened before and will again, what if the rag tag fugitive fleet IS the 13th tribe? They get to Earth and remanents of a civilization, but no people. Then as they scan explore the system, they find something on the dark side of the moon, it is a battlestar that has a major passing resemblance to TOS Galactica and next to it is another one which is even older, which is next to one that is even older... etc.

Fun concept!

I'm really hoping they pull something really far out of left field to wrap this up. So far, I'm extremely disappointed in the progression of the series:

Miniseries: Whoa!
Season 1: Exciting!!
Season 2: No way!!! Awesome!!!
Season 3: uh... wtf? did i accidently dvr a law show???

Season 4 is carrying a huge burden and better fracking be exciting, unexpected, and intense. Get crazy on us!!!!

RLJ

03-29-07, 08:55 PM

Fun concept!

I'm really hoping they pull something really far out of left field to wrap this up. So far, I'm extremely disappointed in the progression of the series:

Thanks :)

rezzy

03-29-07, 09:36 PM

Never said innocent, just not guilty. There is a difference.Umm....I'm aware there's a difference. However, you stated you never thought Baltar committed any crimes. Then you went on to say you didn't think he was the man responsible for the New Caprica situation. What does that make him exactly, if not innocent?

pedrojunkie

03-29-07, 09:53 PM

From a TVWeek interview...

I just lost all respect for that dude!!!!

Why? Its a Sci-Fi production, meant to be shown on the Sci-Fi channel, why should he spend all the extra time effort and money to cut and edit the show basically just for syndication?

pedrojunkie

03-29-07, 10:05 PM

They were going for a different sound...hendrix but if he lived in their culture. They used a lot of Eastern instruments (sithars, etc).

Plus theres the cliffhangar of not knowing exactly what the hell we heard over the break...

Was it a transmission from earth?
Was it a song from their childhood like they said?
Did the Cylons implant it and they have been to earth first?
Was it something else?

If it was a song from their childhood does that mean hendrix got the song from the colonies? or does BSG take place in the distant future and somehow the song made its way across the galaxy either by radio or emigration before the colony went lost.

michaeltscott

03-29-07, 11:48 PM

If it was a song from their childhood does that mean hendrix got the song from the colonies? or does BSG take place in the distant future and somehow the song made its way across the galaxy either by radio or emigration before the colony went lost.Hendrix got the song from Bob Dylan, who wrote it and released it on an album in the year before Hendrix covered it on Electric Ladyland (1967 and 1968, resp.)--where Dylan got it from... :D

ragtop13

03-30-07, 02:40 AM

petergaryr

03-30-07, 06:37 AM

bfdtv

03-30-07, 07:28 AM

Let us know what you find out. I thought he was actually doing the tests, but "rigging" them so that all the results would be negative (even though he could actually tell who was a cylon). Of course, if that were true, he'd know who the other cylons in the fleet were all along.I remember that episode. The results came up positive (red?). As Sharon came around to look at the screen, he frantically mashed buttons which changed the screen to negative (green?). In between, the imaginary Six showed up and suggested that if he told Sharon, her cylon programming would take over and he'd be killed.

Palladin

03-30-07, 09:14 AM

Based on the fact that when they found out that there were cylons amongst the humans (back in season 1 , I thinks), they asked Baltar if he could develop some kind of a cylon detection method which he did. He tested it on Sharon which the results said that she was cylon, but Baltar said the results were negative which they weren't. That was before before Sharon shot Adama. Based on that action, I'd throw his ass out of an airlock. I think he eventually said he couldn't do it, but I'd need to watch that episode again to refresh the ole memory bank.
Funny, but I was trying to remember exactly how the events unfolded back in that episode when the whole discussion of Baltar’s ‘innocence’ first came up. Fortunately,

I remember that episode. The results came up positive (red?). As Sharon came around to look at the screen, he frantically mashed buttons which changed the screen to negative (green?). In between, the imaginary Six showed up and suggested that if he told Sharon, her cylon programming would take over and he'd be killed.
Thanks, I was a little hazy at first about a couple of details, but your version of it was pretty much what I remembered as well. Remember the look of fear on his face, when he was trying to keep Sharon from seeing the panel where the results were.

Arguments can be made about Baltar’s awareness with respect to Caprica Six on New Caprica, but once he knew there was a real ‘flesh and blood’ cylon on board (as opposed to the one in his head), and didn’t report it during a time of war, I think we’re getting pretty much into treason, or conspiracy to commit treason territory, and that’s not even taking Gina & the nuke into consideration. On that basis I’d have to agree – Out the airlock. ;)

Let us know what you find out. I thought he was actually doing the tests, but "rigging" them so that all the results would be negative (even though he could actually tell who was a cylon). Of course, if that were true, he'd know who the other cylons in the fleet were all along.
No, not necessarily, based on RDM’s recent mantra about how the final five were all ‘cough’ fundamentally different ‘cough’, and they may not have been detectable by Baltar's apparatus.

__________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

archiguy

03-30-07, 10:56 AM

No, not necessarily, based on RDM’s recent mantra about how the final five were all ‘cough’ fundamentally different ‘cough’, and they may not have been detectable by Baltar's apparatus.

"Fundamentally different" is right. Clearly, these folks are not "original" Cylons, and I don't believe they're Cylons at all. They've been coopted somehow, perhaps a hidden Cylon receiver implanted in them at some point, maybe for sinister ends, maybe not (if, as some postulate, we're about to meet a whole new group of "good" Cylons).

Besides, we all know that Dee is "the 13th Cylon", dadgumit! ;) :D

petergaryr

03-30-07, 11:45 AM

...No, not necessarily, based on RDM’s recent mantra about how the final five were all ‘cough’ fundamentally different ‘cough’, and they may not have been detectable by Baltar's apparatus.

__________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Ah, good point (and convenient ;) )

rezzy

03-30-07, 12:54 PM

I wondered why ol' Col. Tigh didn't punish Caprica-Six for striking him back in retaliation. Perhaps his programming wouldn't allow it, and/or perhaps he discovered had the hots for her. I'm guessing Six doesn't yet know he's a comrade; but if she finds out, man, she's gonna mess with his head.

loco

03-30-07, 01:08 PM

Tigh put Six in shackles and I assume she's been that way ever since. Roslin even "apologized" to her for it in this last episode. I guess that was meant to be her punishment.

I really believe these Final Five Cylons are somehow not down with the other seven. When Three saw them, she got boxed, and I think it was so she'd never tell anyone else about them. Six told Baltar that they never speak of the Final Five. She seemed scared when she said it.

Hmmm, I wonder if the Cylons didn't just leave their homeworld to take revenge on humans, but maybe they were kicked out. But then that probably ruins my theory that the Final Five are based on Earth. This show messes with your head.

Palladin

03-30-07, 03:40 PM

....Six in shackles and I assume she's been that way ever since.
Hmmmmmm. For some reason, reading that line has created an entirely different image in my mind than when that part was actually shown on television. :)

Could you post it again, but this time don't forget the teddy and fishnet stockings. :D

_______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

EmptyPocketsCarl

03-30-07, 07:28 PM

Why? Its a Sci-Fi production, meant to be shown on the Sci-Fi channel, why should he spend all the extra time effort and money to cut and edit the show basically just for syndication?

Because HD just rocks, dammit!! Maybe if the force behind the best show SciFi has *ever* had was an HD fanatico we might just have SciFiHD by now. But, no, we have letterboxed fuzz-o-vision instead.

<sigh> :(

michaeltscott

03-30-07, 08:15 PM

help-r-monkey

03-30-07, 08:47 PM

^^^^ This is true and a little hrad for me to swallow as well.
However,
For all we know he could have been captured during the first war and a "replacement" was sent back.

Maybe the Final five are actually the original five human type cylons and were created by humans in a secret weapons lab to help fight in the war. We are just going to have to sit back and wait for season four to explain this.......

rezzy

03-30-07, 08:59 PM

I have a very hard time believing that Tigh is a Cylon. He fought in the first Cylon war, didn't he? It was forty years back, long before one assumes that the "skin-jobs" were developed by the Cylons.It seems to be pretty much a given the four individuals who came together are cylon. I hope I'm wrong, and us viewers got played by the writers.

Mr. Hanky

03-31-07, 12:21 AM

I know we are lead to deduce this, but it is troubling to me that the answer can be this simple. Hence, I suspect this is another one of those "things" where the real answer is purposely not the obvious one. The obvious one is deliberately there to throw you off track, so the real one is an utter surprise.

I'm not going to fall for this thinly veiled ruse, RDM! :p

Steve Scherrer

03-31-07, 08:13 AM

Palladin

03-31-07, 09:26 AM

Had the oppurtunity to re-watch the last ep, due to back pain last night, and realized there were two things I hadn't caught the first time around, because I was so busy trying to guess how RDM was going to end it.

The first (and I'm embarrassed for having missed this initially) was the revelation that Romo was only using the cane he didn't actually need, as a stage prop (kind of like Roslin's glasses) to elicit sympathy, and to add emphasis at certain times. This was really a tour de force for Sheppard, particularly when Gaeta was on the stand and he first approaches him, and with a piercing gaze is able to determine that Felix will continue to perjure himself against Baltar, and therefore decides not to cross-examine.

BTW, what was Romo's comment to Apollo at the end "I knerw you were an honest man, much unlike your grandfather" coming from? I know Romo had jousted with him, but I don't recall any reference by Romo to old man Adama's dishonesty previously.

The other thing I caught this time around was at the end. At the same moment BSG initiated the dradis scan, Roslin actions indicated that she was immediately in some kind of distress, and acted weak and dizzy. Now this might have been just another RDM fake-out, but I think it further supports the suspicion of a few here (including myself) that Roslin is the fifth cylon. I'll go a step further and hypothesize that with her natural leadership skills, she is probably the leader of the final five.

If both of these were already covered and I somehow missed it, then never mind. :)

_____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

petergaryr

03-31-07, 10:13 AM

I think the last 5 human cylons (skinjobs) are vastly different than we think they are. After all, a vision of them as seen in the Eye of Jupiter temple, which is supposed to be about 3000 years old! (Now, the vision could have been individual-specific, in that Deanna saw the vision of the 5 because they are personal to her.

But I suspect these 5 cylons are much "older" than we think they are, and weren't actually developed by the machine cylons from the first war. I suspect that the machine cylons left after the first war, and stumbled upon some kind of ancient technology of cloning/resurrection, manipulated it for their own purposes, and came up with the 7 that we know. I still think (and this line of thinking goes back a few pages) that all 12 cylons are somehow genetically related to the original 12 Lords of Kobol.

Ever read Issac Asimov's The Last Question?

This particular story deals with the development of a computer called Multivac and its relationship with humanity through the course of seven historic settings. The first is set in the year 2061. In each of the first six scenes a character presents the computer with a question, namely as to how the threat to worthwhile continued human existence posed by heat death can be averted. As the characters in the story recognize, the question is equivalent to: "Can the second law of thermodynamics, used in the story as entropy, be reversed?" In each case the computer finds itself unable to reply due to "insufficient data for a meaningful answer".

In the last scenes, the god-like descendants of humanity watch the universe finally approach the state of heat death and ask the Cosmic AC, Multivac's descendant, the question one last time before it merges with "Man." Cosmic AC is still unable to answer, but continues to ponder the question after space and time cease to exist. Eventually the Cosmic AC discovers the answer, but has nobody to report it to; the universe is already dead. It therefore decides to show the answer by demonstrating the reversal of entropy, creating the universe anew; the story ends with AC's pronouncement, "LET THERE BE LIGHT!" And there was light—"

Once BSG's Cylons started using the phrase, "all this has happened before...." I started wondering if it was a variation on the Asimov plot.

Man creates robots. Robots become self aware. Rebel because they don't like being slaves. Make themselves into the image of their creator. Want to destory their creator. Realize they still need their creator to continue as a species. Integrate with their creator. Become the creator and creates the the next generation of robots....who then become self aware.....

loco

03-31-07, 10:27 AM

A ha! Here is where we diverge, Palladin! I think all the hints about Roslin in this episode (the shared vision with two Cylons, the sick spell right before the power outage) are all there to make us debate whether or not she's a member of the Final Five. However, I imagine there must be some other explanation. Perhaps Hera's blood has given her some connection to the Cylons, but I doubt she's really one of them. After all, she didn't hear the music.

Tigh is at the right hand of Adama, Tory is at the right hand of Roslin. I think there's a reason for that, they were put there next to these two leaders of humanity for some reason. So, why would Roslin then be a Cylon. In my opinion, Roslin is the dying leader in the prophecy. She will lead humanity to Earth and then die, never getting a chance to live there. I think there is a kind of Moses parallel going on with her.

Rutgar

03-31-07, 10:48 AM

Ever read Issac Asimov's The Last Question?

.....

"The Last Question", is one of my favorite Asimov short stories. Although, any connection between that story and BSG is a bit of a stretch IMO. Although, as BSG plays out, you may prove to be right. Currently, I think Phillip K. Dick's, 'Do Android's Dream of Electric Sheep?" (AKA 'Blade Runner') is a better parallel.

bfdtv

03-31-07, 10:59 AM

BTW, what was Romo's comment to Apollo at the end "I knerw you were an honest man, much unlike your grandfather" coming from? I know Romo had jousted with him, but I don't recall any reference by Romo to old man Adama's dishonesty previously.Romo such an excellent lawyer, in good part, because of his ability to manipulate others into doing what he needs for a case. He is not an honest man. Quite the contrary, we've seen that he is an accomplished liar. Very little coming out of his mouth was actually true.

Weren't we told that Romo had learned "everything he knew" from Adama's grandfather? By that implication alone, he couldn't have been an honest man.

Palladin

03-31-07, 12:02 PM

Ever read Issac Asimov's The Last Question?

Once BSG's Cylons started using the phrase, "all this has happened before...." I started wondering if it was a variation on the Asimov plot.
Based on what I will call RDM’s playful side, for all we know this is a self-mockery, and the joke is that he’s referring to his “lifting” of other ideas from the past (e.g.Azimov, Dick, the original series or whoever), and his recognition that perhaps 20 years in the future, someone will be lifting ideas from RDM’s work as well. Hopefully, it won’t be anything as blatant as ‘BSG-The Next Generation’, but some other work.

A ha! Here is where we diverge, Palladin! I think all the hints about Roslin in this episode (the shared vision with two Cylons, the sick spell right before the power outage) are all there to make us debate whether or not she's a member of the Final Five. However, I imagine there must be some other explanation. Perhaps Hera's blood has given her some connection to the Cylons, but I doubt she's really one of them. After all, she didn't hear the music. .
Okay Loco, I admit I’m a little nervous about this one, because BSG has certainly made enough attempts to lead us to suspect almost every major character (and a few minor ones) in the fleet, and Roslin is particularly high-profile due to a number of factors, including her staus; her dreams of Caprica Six on Caprica, Hera and others.

So it’s too obvious a possibility. BUT remember this is RDM we’re talking about, and he likes to throw curveballs. Making someone look a distinct possibility to a grioup like his audience, almost ensures the fact that they will reject it for that very reason, when its really just a natural progression of his shell game. Who would have ever suspected Tigh as a cylon? I mean, that was the BIG shocker, and Chief to a lesser extent, whereas we have little emotional investment in Anders or Tory. That’s why I’m wondering about Roslin’s reaction to the dradis scan at the end. Was this intended as further reinforcement of a misdirection, or the 'red herring' he was carefully placing over the jungle pit. If you’ve recorded it, take a quick look and let me know your thoughts.

Tigh is at the right hand of Adama, Tory is at the right hand of Roslin. I think there's a reason for that, they were put there next to these two leaders of humanity for some reason. So, why would Roslin then be a Cylon. In my opinion, Roslin is the dying leader in the prophecy. She will lead humanity to Earth and then die, never getting a chance to live there. I think there is a kind of Moses parallel going on with her.
Entirely possible in this puzzle. But to use your own right-hand examples, wouldn’t Callie be the choice as the assistant to Chief, instead of Chief himself? I don’t get the impression that Anders is prominent in the fleet pecking order, so the concept while interesting, doesn’t seem to have a truly universal fit. But, of course, that may just be what RDM wants us to think.

Romo such an excellent lawyer, in good part, because of his ability to manipulate others into doing what he needs for a case. He is not an honest man. Quite the contrary, we've seen that he is an accomplished liar. Very little coming out of his mouth was actually true.

Weren't we told that Romo had learned "everything he knew" from Adama's grandfather? By that implication alone, he couldn't have been an honest man.

I don’t know. That depends on whether you consider Romo to be immoral or dishonest, or rather extremely clever, which is the way I’ve viewed him. Let’s assume you’re correct. What purpose would Romo have to make this statement after he’s already finished his manipulation of Lee for purposes of the trial. It just seemed out of character to me.

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

loco

03-31-07, 02:05 PM

So it’s too obvious a possibility. BUT remember this is RDM we’re talking about, and he likes to throw curveballs. Making someone look a distinct possibility to a grioup like his audience, almost ensures the fact that they will reject it for that very reason, when its really just a natural progression of his shell game. Who would have ever suspected Tigh as a cylon? I mean, that was the BIG shocker, and Chief to a lesser extent, whereas we have little emotional investment in Anders or Tory. That’s why I’m wondering about Roslin’s reaction to the dradis scan at the end. Was this intended as further reinforcement of a misdirection, or the 'red herring' he was carefully placing over the jungle pit. If you’ve recorded it, take a quick look and let me know your thoughts.

Are you talking about the dizzy/sick spell right before the power goes out or her reaction when the power returned? I do seem to remember thinking she didn't have much of a reaction when they saw the "massive Cylon fleet" on Dradis. And yes, I thought that was kind of odd.

Entirely possible in this puzzle. But to use your own right-hand examples, wouldn’t Callie be the choice as the assistant to Chief, instead of Chief himself? I don’t get the impression that Anders is prominent in the fleet pecking order, so the concept while interesting, doesn’t seem to have a truly universal fit. But, of course, that may just be what RDM wants us to think.

Well, yeah, that's why I didn't mention the other two!! :p But Anders was the leader of the resistance on Caprica and played a prominent role in the New Caprica resistance. As did Chief. Chief sort of represents the everyman type and is the leader of the union.

I don't know. I guess they don't all have to be at the right hand of someone important. I suppose the gist of what I am thinking is that they all have a prominent role as either a leader or right-hand of a leader of humanity. I think these four were chosen to be part of the Final Five for that reason.

help-r-monkey

03-31-07, 04:55 PM

that all 12 cylons are somehow genetically related to the original 12 Lords of Kobol.

Do we know that there are 12 lords of Kobol. I know there are multiple lords but I never remember a number being thrown around.

Are you talking about the dizzy/sick spell right before the power goes out or her reaction when the power returned? I do seem to remember thinking she didn't have much of a reaction when they saw the "massive Cylon fleet" on Dradis. And yes, I thought that was kind of odd.

Maybe Roslin triggered the fleet wide outage? If she is one of the final five and possibly the leader.

Well, yeah, that's why I didn't mention the other two!! But Anders was the leader of the resistance on Caprica and played a prominent role in the New Caprica resistance. As did Chief. Chief sort of represents the everyman type and is the leader of the union.

I find this more signifacant since Roslin and Adama are in a position of leadership and power;were as Anders, Chief and Tyrol are leaders because men and women chose to follow them.

damn, now I am going to have to watch the whole series over again and take notes this time.

Alimentall

03-31-07, 04:59 PM

I don't know if anyone posted this about the All Along the Watchtower version:

http://www.bearmccreary.com/html/blog/blogmain.htm

Palladin

03-31-07, 06:15 PM

Are you talking about the dizzy/sick spell right before the power goes out or her reaction when the power returned? I do seem to remember thinking she didn't have much of a reaction when they saw the "massive Cylon fleet" on Dradis. And yes, I thought that was kind of odd. .
Here’s the chronology. The dizzy/sick spell occurred immediately as the Dradis scan commenced. This was followed by the power outage, at which point we see Roslin starting to recover herself from the effect of the Dradis scan. I think the next shot is of Tigh leaning against a wall hearing ‘the music’, followed shortly after by the Four hooking up in the same room.

Glad you asked me though, because the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the Dradis scan ‘triggered’ something.

Remember 2001:A Space Odyssey. When we landed on the moon and approached the monolith buried there, a shrill, deafening alarm went off , which was to notify the aliens that planted it that mankind had finally accomplished interplanetary travel. Which led to the Jupiter mission, Dave’s ‘acid trip’ ;) and the Starchild.. I think the Dradis scan had a somewhat similar effect in the BSG universe. IOW, the Dradis scan was the inadvertent catalyst for what happened next – i.e. what Tyrol referred to as a ‘switch being flipped.’, and the scan triggered the Final Five to realize or believe that they are cylons. And that scan occurred at the same moment that Roslin became distressed.

Well, yeah, that's why I didn't mention the other two!! :p . :D :D I admire your candor. :)
I find this more signifacant since Roslin and Adama are in a position of leadership and power;were as Anders, Chief and Tyrol are leaders because men and women chose to follow them.
But then you're left with Tigh and Tyro, neither of which have any sort of positive following in the fleet.

I think Loco may be onto something here, but I'm still trying to connect the dots. Somehow I feel that this has more to do with those who can provide the necessary components of a society, i.e. a Government, Military defense, labor/natural resources, etc. Still can't fit Anders in unless he's a natural leader. Roslin also fits in there as she would supply the religious/spiritual aspect (the Moses parallel Loco mentioned).

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

help-r-monkey

03-31-07, 06:32 PM

But then you're left with Tigh and Tyro, neither of which have any sort of positive following in the fleet.

Tyrol was the labor leader on new caprica and Tigh gained popularity and leadership as part of the insurgancy(this part is speculation and an attempt to connect the dots)

Anders was leader or the resistance on Caprica as well as one of the leader of the insugency as well. I don't remember him taking any orders from from the others.

loco

03-31-07, 08:13 PM

Glad you asked me though, because the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the Dradis scan ‘triggered’ something.

Well, I hadn't thought of that. I figured the arrival at the nebula or the impending power outage was what caused Roslin's faintness or headache or whatever it was, as well as the 'switch-flipping' of the Final Four. That's an interesting idea about the Dradis scan, but she's been there for Dradis scans many times, as have the others. Why would this particular one cause that sort of reaction?

Regarding Roslin, she's been having visions off and on since Season One, and they've turned out to be pretty amazingly accurate. I figure she's some sort of prophet or Seer. Maybe she somehow 'felt' or 'saw' the power outage coming and her body reacted to it. IOW, she felt something big was about to happen, wasn't sure what it would be, but was overcome by this feeling of dread or impending doom. How dramatic! :D

I'm sure RDM wanted fans to debate the cause of Roslin's problem and he's getting his wish, isn't he? :)

Palladin

04-01-07, 09:18 AM

Tyrol was the labor leader on new caprica and Tigh gained popularity and leadership as part of the insurgancy(this part is speculation and an attempt to connect the dots)
Anders was leader or the resistance on Caprica as well as one of the leader of the insugency as well. I don't remember him taking any orders from from the others.
Okay, first off, ‘Tyro’ was a sloppy ‘typo’, because I needed to finish the post and run out. Actually that was supposed to be TORI, and that’s the weakest link for that theory because AFAIK, nobody is led by Tori , except possibly Anders and that’s got nothing to do with her ‘leadership’ skills. ;)

Secondly, If we’re going to consider this theory, we’ve got to drop the leadership aspect because, a) it creates inconsistencies , and 2) I think the ‘leadership’ component is being vastly overrated. Look, all we really need is a single leader, and I suspect it will most likely be the fifth cylon.. As I stated before, I think the knowledge and skills of the final four for creating and/or maintaining different aspects of a civilization is why they were chosen, I mean, how many frakkin’ leaders do we need anyway?:rolleyes:

Well, I hadn't thought of that. I figured the arrival at the nebula or the impending power outage was what caused Roslin's faintness or headache or whatever it was, as well as the 'switch-flipping' of the Final Four. That's an interesting idea about the Dradis scan, but she's been there for Dradis scans many times, as have the others. Why would this particular one cause that sort of reaction?
Good point, but that’s why I raised the 2001 analogy. Through a series of jumps, BSG finally got to the system where the ‘marker’ (i.e. monolith) had been planted, and it was triggered by the (pulse, frequency, radioactive signature, whatever) of the Dradis scan. The prior Dradis scans had no effect because there was nothing set to react to it in those locations. In fact, if we take the very end of the episode literally ( and I don’t think I do, because it seemed to have been done for dramatic effect), Earth seems like it may be only one ‘jump shortcut’ away from where Starbuck hooks up with them.

Regarding Roslin, she's been having visions off and on since Season One, and they've turned out to be pretty amazingly accurate. I figure she's some sort of prophet or Seer. Maybe she somehow 'felt' or 'saw' the power outage coming and her body reacted to it. IOW, she felt something big was about to happen, wasn't sure what it would be, but was overcome by this feeling of dread or impending doom. How dramatic! :D
Every bit as plausible as my theory, but how will you reconcile the cylons ‘switches being flipped’ at the same time? Hard to believe it was coincidental.

I'm sure RDM wanted fans to debate the cause of Roslin's problem and he's getting his wish, isn't he? :)
No doubt. Hell, I’ll go a step further, since iit was suggested that he was lifting ideas from other sources, I wouldn’t put it past him to purposely create these ridiculous plotholes/entanglements, and has a P.A. follow various boards to see what solutions we came up with for him. Lazy bum. HEAR ME RDM! We are on strike until we start getting at least union scale. Please contact our leader Tyrol so that we can work out a mutually acceptable monetary resolution! :mad: :D

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

help-r-monkey

04-01-07, 10:29 AM

Okay, first off, ‘Tyro’ was a sloppy ‘typo’, because I needed to finish the post and run out. Actually that was supposed to be TORI, and that’s the weakest link for that theory because AFAIK, nobody is led by Tori , except possibly Anders and that’s got nothing to do with her ‘leadership’ skills.

WOW that was a typo. Well she could be considered to lead the presidents staff, but i see what you mean. I am just throwing stuff out there no rhyme or reason just things that pop in my skull.

lax01

04-01-07, 01:24 PM

Random: I just had the most vivid dream about BSG and where they are going next season...maybe I'm one of the final five ;)

archiguy

04-01-07, 01:43 PM

Random: I just had the most vivid dream about BSG and where they are going next season...maybe I'm one of the final five ;)

Was Six in your dream as well? That's okay, you don't have to explain it to us.... :p

Palladin

04-01-07, 03:02 PM

WOW that was a typo. I said I was in a hurry. :p Not my fault that RDM used practically the same set of letters to name two recurring characters. :eek:

I am just throwing stuff out there no rhyme or reason just things that pop in my skull.
Well don't sweat it. Its not like the rest of us are astrophysicists or anything. ;)

Random: I just had the most vivid dream about BSG and where they are going next season...maybe I'm one of the final five ;)
Sorry, that's already been closed. I hear there are still openings in the New Earth Six; my own group, the Magnificent Seven; and the Black Sox Eight. After that, everything's pretty much shut out until you get to the 4400. :D

Was Six in your dream as well? That's okay, you don't have to explain it to us.... :p
This post made me wonder. Has there ever been a poll here for the hottest BSG babe?? Cause I gotta tell you, I have a weakness for asian women, and I'd take Sharon like a shot over Caprica Six. I mean, how do you resist a chick who's call sign is 'Boomer'?? :cool:

Come to think of it, maybe I'll start one. We've got Six, Starbuck, Sharon, Roslin, Seelix, D'anna, Helena Cain, Kat, Apollo's hooker, Ellen, who have I left out? Should I put Callie in? Is anyone going to vote for her? ;)

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind