I hadn't realized how much I missed BSG till I watched it tonight. Has Edward James Olmos been nominated for any award for his role on BSG? It blows me away how he plays the character so *quietly* and somehow radiates ten times the intensity and authority of the traditional portrayal of a commander/leader.

What if Bob Dylan is the final model???
I'm thinking that since the 5th unknown Cylon wasn't activated by "Watchtower" then he/she is probably a Beatles fan. Paul MCartney is the final model and will get switched on by "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds."

I hadn't realized how much I missed BSG till I watched it tonight. Has Edward James Olmos been nominated for any award for his role on BSG? It blows me away how he plays the character so *quietly* and somehow radiates ten times the intensity and authority of the traditional portrayal of a commander/leader.

That's my biggest issue. That scene from "Torn" with him and Starbuck and Tigh where he took out the pistol and... Easy award win with that one. And every single scene he's in is that good. I didn't know he was that good. Seriously he's like a Daniel Day Lewis, in that you forget that you are watching the actor and not a person.

PQ Report.

Fios SciFi SD pretty darn good. Helps that I got a great 50" panel (NEC) with scalar, allowed me to zoom in a bit with little or no distortion / artifacts. Its a go...

Damn, I forget how good this show I watched the last epsiode and the new one DVR's back to back for the flow...

AS to guessing the 5th...I am more interested what the other 4 are or are not going to do.

Also think Tory will be the first one exposed / whacked shes not even IN the "Last Supper" photo.

Yes I think Almos is amazing but I also think Michael Hogan is...he IS Tigh to me...

Was late to the party on this one- my shift at work ended at 10pm, and 3rd shift came in late. Had just enough time to race home, watch the 3rd Season cliffhanger on DVD, w/ 15 minutes to spare before the 12am repeat (don't have HD or a DVR yet, I'm sorry to say). And then... OH.:eek: MY.:eek: GODS.:eek: Best. Opening. Sequence. Ever... The drought is over. I'm SO glad this show is back.

the redhead is SO HOT.

I'm watching it in HD from DirecTV right now and the quality isn't what I'd call "pristine." I think it's more to do with the way they shoot it than the transmission.It's pretty grainy, especially all the low light scenes, but that's on the film. Overall D*'s PQ was decent; not the best but far from the worst.

AQ, on the other hand, was pretty bad. I had to turn it way up and the dialogue had a tinny, distorted character, with the score and sound effects overpowering it.

There is a problem with that. I think all four of them were on the planet when they were ruled by the Cylons. Brother Cavil (Dean Stockwell) did not show much respect or obedience to Colonel Tigh when he was torturing him - or helping him go for that cool eyepatch look. Yes, they strongly suggested that the Raider recognized Anders causing the Cylons to withdraw, but what was different? Did the rest of the Cylons hear the All Along the Watchtower song as well?

Well, I doubt very seriously that any of the other seven Cylons know who the Final Five are. And if they do on some level, their programming -- the Six in captivity aboard Galactica mentions that she's been programmed not to think about them -- may be keeping them from even recognizing the Final Five.

It's possible that only the "drone" Cylons -- centurions and raiders -- are programmed to recognize and obey the Final Five.

Note to Anders: If Kara asks "what's new?" just say something innocuous like, "oh, just the usual."

I've had too much time to think about the episode now, so....

Assuming that is the "real" Kara, and she's not a Cylon....how can the ship she is flying really be new?...I was getting one of those, what if the nebula is really an event horizon thoughts....where somehow a "past" Kara and a "future" Kara meet. Some sort of time loop where "all this has happened before". It was fleeting, and breaks down quickly, but they've been playing up the "Kara has a destiny" angle for quite a while now.

The other fleeting thought has to do with the Cylons themselves. I wonder if something is going on in Cylon society with the drones, centurions and human models. They've not given us many hints about what caused the original models to rebel. Yet it seems to me that the humanoid Cyclons are using the drones and centurions for all the crappy jobs.

Wouldn't it be a hoot if the humans and humanoid Cylons have to join forces to fight the "toasters" who have gotten tired of being underpaid and under appreciated?

Finally, since this is the last season, I'm wondering about a tie-in to the original 70's series. Shortly after the destruction of the Pegasus in the original series, a story arc occurred that involved a certain character. I'm wondering if the final Cylon model will be that character [if you've seen the original, you'll know who I talking about....if not, I didn't want to reference a possible "spoiler".]

Did the rest of the Cylons hear the All Along the Watchtower song as well?

I will be interested to see how well they tie all these plot elements together. Unless the writers are more careful than they have appeared to be, there will be inconsistencies that people will pick over for years. :D I wonder if they will ever explain away the reference to the Lagoon Nebula which was referred to as M8 (Messier 8) way back in season 2. That has always bugged me because the popular name for the nebula only goes back 100 years or so. It only works if they find a Earth of our distant future.

One has to wonder if the watchtower 4 are hearing a transmission of a non-Hendrix version of the song from earth. If that were the case, that would put them at roughly 40 light years from this old planet, given the first release of the song in the 60s. Provided of course that the story is set in 2008. They'll end up getting to earth in present day, run into SG1 and discover that they are all a bunch of replicators :D.

Here's a thought: Hera (child of Sharon and Helo) as the evolutionary 12th model.

Will Canada get season 4 in HD ?

... Unless the writers are more careful than they have appeared to be, there will be inconsistencies that people will pick over for years. :D I wonder if they will ever explain away the reference to the Lagoon Nebula which was referred to as M8 (Messier 8) way back in season 2. That has always bugged me because the popular name for the nebula only goes back 100 years or so. It only works if they find a Earth of our distant future.
Also the "petri" dish reference from last night (c:1887). I find myself ramping up the old ‘willing suspension of disbelief for the moment’ during those type of writing slips.

Didn't Anders eye change slightly to signal to the cylon while he was being scanned. Maybe it was just me and my crappy SD broadcast of the Sci-Fi Channel on Time Warner but it looked like his eye morphed just for a second to send out a signal. IF so that would explain why the attack was withdrawn since I figure the message was passed on to everyone else. Instead of the Cylon just looking at him and somehow knowing he was one of the 5.

I looked at it as a download to Anders (intel or instructions) - the flash of Anders' eye was the completion of the download. He looked too dumbfounded to be the one initiating the transmission.

Figured the attack wasn't called off because the toaster recognized a cylon - the attack had the sole purpose of swarming the colonials until they could locate one of the 5 to pass on the download. Once completed, mission accomplished and they withdrew.

^^^Good theory. But they could have easily destroyed one of the Final 5 that way without realizing it. They blew up one entire ship and severely disabled another one, causing hundreds of deaths among the Colonists. What if one of the 5 had been on them? One presumes that not every Viper survived the skirmish unharmed (although they frequently do - Raiders look like they're all graduates of the Imperial Storm Trooper School of Marksmanship). It was just chance that Anders and the Raider got turned and faced each other eye-to-eye as it were. The whole attack, if that were the mission, was an awfully inefficient way to accomplish that mission, if that were the purpose. The "brute force/blunt instrument" approach" writ large.

I felt it was a just matter of recognition. The toaster's red eye was reflected in Anders' eye. It recognized him as one of the final 5 and seemed to shut down, as if the F5 were not to be harmed. The attack thus had to be called off. Next week we'll see them scheming about what to do now - and the return of Brother Cavel, my favorite Cylon. :D

- and the return of Brother Cavel, my favorite Cylon. :D"What are you talking about? I'm not a frakkin' cylon----oh. Well...." :o :eek:

I don't try to correlate anything in the show with our actual history. Too much other stuff to try and make sense of that maybe should just be taken for what it is. The whole Roman gods polytheism thing for one: I don't remember ever reading about the ancient Greeks or Romans taking off for another solar system.
The Roman/Greek polytheism could be explained away by the founding of a new cult in the future. Earth & it's colonies was under the thumb of an single oppressive religious monotheistic government which was trying to destroy the upstart revival Greco-roman religion. The cult buys/steals some spaceships and flees far away to where they will never be found. They then rewrite their own history to turn Earth into the 13th colony and not the mother planet. But I seriously doubt that the writers will go that route. They are going to a more mystical plot/theme with the bit that this has all happened before and will happen again, etc. Why would the colonists still know the Lagoon Nebula by that name and as M8 after a couple of thousand years for example? Agree that this is just part of the willful suspension of disbelief and all that.

I looked at it as a download to Anders (intel or instructions) - the flash of Anders' eye was the completion of the download. He looked too dumbfounded to be the one initiating the transmission.

Figured the attack wasn't called off because the toaster recognized a cylon - the attack had the sole purpose of swarming the colonials until they could locate one of the 5 to pass on the download. Once completed, mission accomplished and they withdrew.

I can see your angle I just feel that the Final 5 are Cylon/Human Hybrids and ultimately can control the Cylons. He looked dumbfounded but also looked a bit fearful. Subconscious response transmitted the withdraw message so yeah the human side of him looks off in confusion while the inner Cylon knew what to do to survive.

^^^Good theory. But they could have easily destroyed one of the Final 5 that way without realizing it. They blew up one entire ship and severely disabled another one, causing hundreds of deaths among the Colonists. What if one of the 5 had been on them? One presumes that not every Viper survived the skirmish unharmed (although they frequently do - Raiders look like they're all graduates of the Imperial Storm Trooper School of Marksmanship). It was just chance that Anders and the Raider got turned and faced each other eye-to-eye as it were. The whole attack, if that were the mission, was an awfully inefficient way to accomplish that mission, if that were the purpose. The "brute force/blunt instrument" approach" writ large.

I felt it was a just matter of recognition. The toaster's red eye was reflected in Anders' eye. It recognized him as one of the final 5 and seemed to shut down, as if the F5 were not to be harmed. The attack thus had to be called off. Next week we'll see them scheming about what to do now - and the return of Brother Cavel, my favorite Cylon. :D


They've always presented the Five as being "special". It was either the fighter recognized him and gave a "back off" signal to the others, or Anders' "inner cylon" sent a recall signal.

Based on Anders' reaction, it wasn't anything he was doing consciously.

Interesting that a cyclon fighter would possibly recognize who he was---but a standard model like Sharon didn't recognize either the chief or Anders as card carrying members of the Cylon Club.

Baltar as a Cylon would almost ruin the whole show for me. One of the most interesting things about him is his betrayal of humanity. If he's a Cylon, it means nothing.

I only hope this doesn't end up being the new "Was Deckard a Replicant?" argument! :D

I gotta say that dude does very well for himself. He gets to be the ultimate bad guy and the good guy. I thought threesomes with Cylons on the basestar were going to be peak of his exploits but now he's got hot groupies who've built an altar for him. I can only imagine what debauchery will be happening there. Not only did he "land on his feet", he landed on some very attractive women! :eek:

I only hope this doesn't end up being the new "Was Deckard a Replicant?" argument! :D

Absolutely NOT! ;)

I gotta say that dude does very well for himself. He gets to be the ultimate bad guy and the good guy. I thought threesomes with Cylons on the basestar were going to be peak of his exploits but now he's got hot groupies who've built an altar for him. I can only imagine what debauchery will be happening there. Not only did he "land on his feet", he landed on some very attractive women! :eek:

And they can kick-ass too! That hot chick Sydney Bristow'd him right out of that tight spot. Looked like women outnumbered men 10 to 1 in that group. Now there's a cult I could get behind! :p

I hadn't realized how much I missed BSG till I watched it tonight. Has Edward James Olmos been nominated for any award for his role on BSG? It blows me away how he plays the character so *quietly* and somehow radiates ten times the intensity and authority of the traditional portrayal of a commander/leader.

This was the first thing that bought me on the series. Instead of the usual over the top acting we see so often in science fiction, Olmos plays Adama like a proper leader, hiding his anger and frustration in critical situations because he knows that's not how a leader is supposed to act. In the miniseries the whole universe is falling apart and we can see that in his eyes but his voice was calm and restrained as he gave out desperate orders.

Before NBC aired the miniseries, I had no idea that BSG was serious sci-fi. I was actually avoiding it because I thought remaking that stupid old series was the dumbest idea I had ever heard. I expected it to be something like the Bionic Woman remake -- lots of fluff wanting to be taken seriously.

Before NBC aired the miniseries, I had no idea that BSG was serious sci-fi. I was actually avoiding it because I thought remaking that stupid old series was the dumbest idea I had ever heard. I expected it to be something like the Bionic Woman remake -- lots of fluff wanting to be taken seriously.

You never know what will resonate with the great unwashed. Somebody remade 'Knight Rider', one of the cheesiest shows of all time, and it got boffo ratings on a Big Four network. They're giving it a full order next fall. Meanwhile, BSG - one of the most critically acclaimed, buzzed about, and beloved (if comments here are typical of it's tiny but devoted viewership) series of recent times struggled to get 2 million viewers a week last year. What's wrong with this picture? :confused:

I'm awaiting the overnight ratings with anticipation.... and dread. :o

I looked at it as a download to Anders (intel or instructions) - the flash of Anders' eye was the completion of the download. He looked too dumbfounded to be the one initiating the transmission.

Figured the attack wasn't called off because the toaster recognized a cylon - the attack had the sole purpose of swarming the colonials until they could locate one of the 5 to pass on the download. Once completed, mission accomplished and they withdrew.
^^^Good theory. But they could have easily destroyed one of the Final 5 that way without realizing it. They blew up one entire ship and severely disabled another one, causing hundreds of deaths among the Colonists. What if one of the 5 had been on them? One presumes that not every Viper survived the skirmish unharmed (although they frequently do - Raiders look like they're all graduates of the Imperial Storm Trooper School of Marksmanship). It was just chance that Anders and the Raider got turned and faced each other eye-to-eye as it were. The whole attack, if that were the mission, was an awfully inefficient way to accomplish that mission, if that were the purpose. The "brute force/blunt instrument" approach" writ large.

I felt it was a just matter of recognition. The toaster's red eye was reflected in Anders' eye. It recognized him as one of the final 5 and seemed to shut down, as if the F5 were not to be harmed. The attack thus had to be called off. Next week we'll see them scheming about what to do now - and the return of Brother Cavel, my favorite Cylon. :D
The Download theory is interesting and could be correct, but why would they need it as the Final 4 had already been pre-programmed to respond in a certain manner once the music played and the switch was thrown?

My 'initial' take was different, though I'm not claiming it is necessarily any more correct.

First, I don't think that was just any drone. I think it was 'Scar'. The ship's movement seemed very controlled and intentional. And no drone I know of is better at that than Scar.
Second, my interpretation of the 'red eye' express was not that it was a download, but rather a method to confirm that the activation switch was successfully 'thrown' for the Final Four, without creating suspicion. The rest of the 'attack' was basically a diversion to distract attention away from the main purpose, i.e. to confirm that the 'sleepers' had awakened.

I don't think it mere coincidence that Anders has been on board all this time, but only recently became a 'shock jock'.

Next week we'll see them scheming about what to do now - and the return of Brother Cavel, my favorite Cylon. :D
Yeah, and don't think we haven't all realized that its solely because you've wanted to bang Ellen Tigh since her first appearance. :D

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Oh, and as far as the 'who is the last sleeper' sweepstakes goes, my frontrunners at the moment are Bill Adama and Lee Adama , but for reasons that are entirely unrelated to each other.

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

You never know what will resonate with the great unwashed. Somebody remade 'Knight Rider', one of the cheesiest shows of all time, and it got boffo ratings on a Big Four network. They're giving it a full order next fall. Meanwhile, BSG - one of the most critically acclaimed, buzzed about, and beloved (if comments here are typical of it's tiny but devoted viewership) series of recent times struggled to get 2 million viewers a week last year. What's wrong with this picture? :confused:

I'm awaiting the overnight ratings with anticipation.... and dread. :o

I agree with you. But ... I've given up on worrying about the ratings. They are far too depressing to even think about. Smart, quality television is rarely rewarded with popularity. It's too dense, too complex for the average viewer's attention span. Besides, we're in the last season. I don't think the ratings really matter at this point - as long as they don't fall through the floor. And frankly, I may regret saying this, but how much lower than a 1.0 can it get?

I think one of the more interesting questions at this point is - what will Earth be like when they find it? It could be modern day 2008, or... it could go in any other direction - our past, the future - maybe an Earth where Cylons have already infiltrated the human race.
I'm sure Mr. Moore and his group will make it very interesting whatever it turns out to be. This reveal has the potential for a real shocker.

Other thoughts:
- R Moore said he used the downtime from the strike to tweak the endgame story
- looks like they also used the time to beef up the special effects - awesome CGI in this episode.

Without a doubt, the best show on tv (not named Lost).

Looked like women outnumbered men 10 to 1 in that group. Now there's a cult I could get behind! :p

Moi aussi!! :p :D

You never know what will resonate with the great unwashed. Somebody remade 'Knight Rider', one of the cheesiest shows of all time, and it got boffo ratings on a Big Four network.

Bionic Woman had the highest rated premiere of new shows last season. That became irrelevant as its ratings eventually slid below a show on Univision in the same timeslot just before it was put on "hiatus".

Oh, and as far as the 'who is the last sleeper' sweepstakes goes, my frontrunners at the moment are Bill Adama and Lee Adama , but for reasons that are entirely unrelated to each other.

My money is on Jimi Hendrix. That guy was a Cylon. He wrote the Watchtower song, right?

My money is on Jimi Hendrix. That guy was a Cylon. He wrote the Watchtower song, right?
Wrong! Bob Dylan wrote All Along the Watchtower. Jimi Hendrix wrote MacArthur Park. ;)

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I'm watching it in HD from DirecTV right now and the quality isn't what I'd call "pristine." I think it's more to do with the way they shoot it than the transmission.

And to elaborate on a previous post of mine, watching the last episode of season 3 right now and comparing it to what I downloaded from Amazon, they're surprisingly close in terms of PQ. This is on a Panasonic 58" 1080p plasma for both. If you can't get it in HD then Amazon should be a pretty close second if you don't mind paying for it.

It is the way it's shot/produced. If you caught the beginning of Stargate:Atlantis following the previews you can see the difference in how the 2 shows are shot/filtered, SA has a decidedly cleaner/sharper look to it. I saw only one very brief instance of artifacting during a close-up flyby during the battle sequence, the rest of it looked fine.

Viewed on a 73" CRT RPTV w/9" guns at native resolution.

I was also watching on SciFi HD on Directv and I'd say it was significantly worse quality compared to the BSG episdoes on UHD. There is always a 'film grain' to the BSG episodes on UHD, but I was seeing digital compression artifacts and digital 'mosquito' noise on SciFi HD that I never see on the UHD episodes. Since I had some previous episodes on UHD, I could go back and forth and there is a noticeable improvement on the UHD episodes.

Viewed on a 106" Sharp XV-Z20000u DLP projector and then again on my Panasonic 50" plasma both with HR-20 HD DVRs.

I think one of the more interesting questions at this point is - what will Earth be like when they find it? It could be modern day 2008, or... it could go in any other direction - our past, the future - maybe an Earth where Cylons have already infiltrated the human race.
I'm sure Mr. Moore and his group will make it very interesting whatever it turns out to be. This reveal has the potential for a real shocker.

Other thoughts:
- R Moore said he used the downtime from the strike to tweak the endgame story
- looks like they also used the time to beef up the special effects - awesome CGI in this episode.

Without a doubt, the best show on tv (not named Lost).

One quibble - it's the best show on TV. Period. ;) Lost has rebounded very nicely this season, but that doesn't make up for two bad seasons which almost had me quit the show.

I, too, am very interested in seeing what kind of Earth they find. I'm betting it will be deserted or in ruins.

My other thought is that they will arrive in the distant past and Baltar/Six will start populating the planet, thereby implicating that all of us are hybrids. :)

My money is on Jimi Hendrix. That guy was a Cylon. He wrote the Watchtower song, right?Bob Dylan wrote it- but Hendrix' version kicks @$$:D.

I was also watching on SciFi HD on Directv and I'd say it was significantly worse quality compared to the BSG episdoes on UHD. There is always a 'film grain' to the BSG episodes on UHD, but I was seeing digital compression artifacts and digital 'mosquito' noise on SciFi HD that I never see on the UHD episodes. Since I had some previous episodes on UHD, I could go back and forth and there is a noticeable improvement on the UHD episodes.

Viewed on a 106" Sharp XV-Z20000u DLP projector and then again on my Panasonic 50" plasma both with HR-20 HD DVRs.

I think you need to compare last night's episode with when they air in on UHD. I think last night's ep was for the most part even "grainier" than the show usually is. However, the opening battle looked superb. It often varies from scene to scene, episode to episode. The very next program was Stargate Atlantis, and it looked pristine on SciFi HD on D*. I have been very impressed with SciFi HD on D* and was also disappointed with how this particular episode looked. But other episodes have looked fantastic in HD on that channel.

My other thought is that they will arrive in the distant past and Baltar/Six will start populating the planet, thereby implicating that all of us are hybrids. :)
I'm not so sure about that. I see plenty of people on this website who are clearly running off of natural gas! :D

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I know everyone is expecting the final cylon to be someone from the main cast. However, I love Moore's sense of irony, and who wouldn't be the most ironic choice but BSG's most famous recurring character: Tom Zarek. Richard Hatch, the original Apollo and one of the most vocal former stars who were originally against the BSG remake, as the final Cylon would be a classic Moore move.

Anyway, amazing episode! I was cheering and screaming at my screen the entire hour. I think they needed the year+ to get funding to pay for all those special effects in the first five minutes. ;)

I know everyone is expecting the final cylon to be someone from the main cast. However, I love Moore's sense of irony, and who wouldn't be the most ironic choice but BSG's most famous recurring character: Tom Zarek. Richard Hatch, the original Apollo and one of the most vocal former stars who were originally against the BSG remake, as the final Cylon would be a classic Moore move.


Ummmm, let's try to keep up here... ;)


That is why my guess for the final Cylon is Zarek. He was also a part of the resistance, is Roslin's VP, and was not on Galactica when everyone else was hearing the music and convening in the gym.

I like that. And how fitting would it be that the original Apollo was the Final Cylon...? :p

Totally. ;) If it is not one of the main characters, Zarek is one that might have the strongest impact on fans. It's hard to top Tigh as a Cylon unless they pick Starbuck, Roslin, Adama, or Lee. I'm hoping it's not one of them. Although Lee might be interesting.

Sorry, haven't visited the thread until now, and who has the time to read 72 pages of material that's quickly growing? (Even though it looks like that was posted only a page or two ago.) ;)

However, I consider myself served nonetheless. :p

I think you need to compare last night's episode with when they air in on UHD. I think last night's ep was for the most part even "grainier" than the show usually is. However, the opening battle looked superb. It often varies from scene to scene, episode to episode. The very next program was Stargate Atlantis, and it looked pristine on SciFi HD on D*. I have been very impressed with SciFi HD on D* and was also disappointed with how this particular episode looked. But other episodes have looked fantastic in HD on that channel.

I'm with you on this, I kept watching for artifacting during that battle sequence as that would be where it would happen and only saw one very small brief instance of it, the rest looked fine. The overall look of the show is definitely grainier than say an ep of S:A. Agree that if the content is "clean" the PQ on SciFi-HD/DirecTV is outstanding, I've been very impressed with it as well.

Ron Moore has said that the Final Five are full Cylons, but "fundamentally different" from the other seven. I think at least one way in which they're different is fairly obvious: the Final Five age while the rest of them don't. After all, Adama has known Tigh for decades, and one assumes Tigh didn't always look the same.

Ron Moore has said that the Final Five are full Cylons, but "fundamentally different" from the other seven. I think at least one way in which they're different is fairly obvious: the Final Five age while the rest of them don't. After all, Adama has known Tigh for decades, and one assumes Tigh didn't always look the same.
Well, yeah, but that goes way beyond 'fairly obvious'' territory, and right into the heart of 'abundantly clear'. We knew the sleepers had to look 'human', or they'd make pretty lousy 'sleepers'. I always interpreted his statement as something that was markedly significant, like the ability to reproduce, or some sort of intuitive processing, not something as outwardly blatant as that their appearance would never change.

_________________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I was also watching on SciFi HD on Directv and I'd say it was significantly worse quality compared to the BSG episdoes on UHD. There is always a 'film grain' to the BSG episodes on UHD, but I was seeing digital compression artifacts and digital 'mosquito' noise on SciFi HD that I never see on the UHD episodes. Since I had some previous episodes on UHD, I could go back and forth and there is a noticeable improvement on the UHD episodes.

Viewed on a 106" Sharp XV-Z20000u DLP projector and then again on my Panasonic 50" plasma both with HR-20 HD DVRs.
I wasn't so much trying to comment on the quality of the broadcast last night as I was commenting on how good the downloads look in comparison. They're really pretty close. Grainy and dark is the look the producers have chosen for the show. It is what it is and I don't mind it.

I wasn't so much trying to comment on the quality of the broadcast last night as I was commenting on how good the downloads look in comparison. They're really pretty close. Grainy and dark is the look the producers have chosen for the show. It is what it is and I don't mind it.
Is it just me, or is anyone else wondering why a really hot chick like Chris O has nothing better to do than hang around a forum filled with HDTV geeks? :eek: ;)

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared m ind

I felt it was a just matter of recognition. The toaster's red eye was reflected in Anders' eye. It recognized him as one of the final 5 and seemed to shut down, as if the F5 were not to be harmed. The attack thus had to be called off. Next week we'll see them scheming about what to do now - and the return of Brother Cavel, my favorite Cylon. :D
That's how I see it too. The 5 got switched on and can now be recognized by other Cylons. At least by the raiders. We know now that Six can feel them, it'll be interesting to see if the other 6 can as well.

Is it just me, or is anyone else wondering why a really hot chick like Chris O has nothing better to do than hang around a forum filled with HDTV geeks? :eek: ;)

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared m ind
Why does everyone lately think that's a picture of me? If it was a pic of Homer J. you wouldn't think I was actually Homer, would you?

I think I need to remedy that somehow before someone proposes.;)

btw, it's Natascha McElhone the actress.

Why does everyone lately think that's a picture of me? If it was a pic of Homer J. you wouldn't think I was actually Homer, would you?

DAMN! Hope I can get the retainer back on that midnight dinner cruise I already booked. :mad:

btw, it's Natascha McElhone the actress.
Yeah, I get SHO, so I knew. That woman's got cheekbones that look like they were chiseled out of marble. And the rest of her ain't that bad either. ;)

I think I need to remedy that somehow before someone proposes.;)
Nah, she's a welcome relief at this forum. Just change the words below your sig name from 'AVS Special Member' to 'My Main Squeeze'. Then you'll just get PMs asking for her cell number after you ditch her. :rolleyes:

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I really liked the episode quite a bit but the blatant comparison of Baltar to Jesus was stunning. Ususally they're not so "in your face" about it.

Fundamental difference for the "5" could just be free will.

I really liked the episode quite a bit but the blatant comparison of Baltar to Jesus was stunning. Ususally they're not so "in your face" about it.

Gotta love the

Altar of Baltar, that was awesome.

I really liked the episode quite a bit but the blatant comparison of Baltar to Jesus was stunning. Ususally they're not so "in your face" about it.

Yes, that part of the episode I thought was just a bit over the top.

I really liked the episode quite a bit but the blatant comparison of Baltar to Jesus was stunning. Ususally they're not so "in your face" about it.

I think the point is that people are always looking for their next savior, and forgive me but in that case "The Jesus Look" is a great way to convey that message in the context of the show.

RE: The last five Cylons being different.

Maybe they can reason beyond there programming. Maybe they are "Good". In fact I know they are in shock, but why haven't they asked themselves if Boomer/Athena can be good then why not themselves? Maybe the Final 5 are to designed to bring the two species together...maybe they are designed for peace!

I really liked the episode quite a bit but the blatant comparison of Baltar to Jesus was stunning. Ususally they're not so "in your face" about it.
Well, then you may want to find another series. I think that may have been a warning shot across the bow. Let's not forget that these guys have been pushing the envelope of what is deemed as permissible on 'mainstream' TV, since the original mini-series, between nudity, promiscuity, thinly veiled obscenities (c'mon, you know 'Frak' was brilliant), politics, social issues, etc.

This is the last season and they're probably not going to have another oppurtunity at this kind of 'freedom' again soon, if ever, on non-premium TV. I expect them to kick out all the stops, and carve up as many sacred cows as they can get they're hands on. So if you're at all squeamish, I'd suggest planning on getting out while you can, as I suspect that before its all over, you'll be reminded of Bette Davis' warning about fastening your seatbelts, because it IS going to be a bumpy flight.

And if you're not....well, you'll probably be in for some of the best entertainment of your life.

_________________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

It's possible that only the "drone" Cylons -- centurions and raiders -- are programmed to recognize and obey the Final Five.

I buy this theory given the preview of next week. Reasonable if for some reason the 5 needed to be hidden from the 7 for some reason. +1 on really hoping the fifth is Zarek since among other things it would give him something to do for the first time in 2 seasons and since RDM on the podcast for Bastille Day called him "Nelson Mandela-like", what better way to finish that theme off than him coming up with a peace accord and being the unliked but only choice to lead both races? (Also, zero chance of Dirk Benedict given his badmouthing of the show, although if you listen to the podcast for I think Kobol's Last Gleaming they did originally consider him for another role, but you'll have to find that one out yourself!)

That said I think the Hera theory makes a lot more sense because it would tie up a long underlying plot line that crops up periodically: what's the difference between Cylon and human, and why does one race deserve to survive over the other? I'm sure others have probably speculated on this, but lets just say Cylon 1.0 was the original models, 1.1 the experiments from Razor, 2.0 the 7, and 3.0 the 5. The difference between 2.0 and 3.0 may simply be that they are machine-born humans, with all that implies, like that the whole goal of the Cylons was to become human and this finally accomplishes this, yada yada. Hence, Hera is significant not just as the 5th, but as the path for things to come for both races merging into one.

I may be unique but my favorite sequence was the Gaeta-Starbuck one; I was wondering why he was bordering on subordination and it took me a minute to remember the whole 'beg for your life' dog bowl scene in Collaborators. Nice touch.

10 days until SciFi HD, so my upconvert battlesequence wasn't as fun. I'm hoping they rebroadcast this in HD only so I can tell if that ship with the wheel has a hole in it - it looked like it!

Bob Dylan wrote it- but Hendrix' version kicks @$$:D.


+1
You know he played the bass on the studio version! :eek:

My favorite is the live version at the Isle of Wight.


Back on topic I loved the episode I have to say the whole "dark" aspect and having characters that have flaws has made the difference to me since season 1.

Does anyone else think the boy was healed by Head Six? Or was it just a lucky break for Baltar? I have long though she was manipulating Baltar (and by extension everyone else) for some greater purpose. Is she in fact the Angel of God she's always claimed to be?

I love that she was much more like the Head Six from Season 1 in this episode!

This is the last season and they're probably not going to have another oppurtunity at this kind of 'freedom' again soon, if ever, on non-premium TV. I expect them to kick out all the stops, and carve up as many sacred cows as they can get they're hands on. So if you're at all squeamish, I'd suggest planning on getting out while you can, as I suspect that before its all over, you'll be reminded of Bette Davis' warning about fastening your seatbelts, because it IS going to be a bumpy flight.The writers could have easily gotten the Jesus comparisson across without banging it through our heads multiple times. When they went to the scene where the camera moved panned back and showed Baltar praying with hands in an angelic like pose, I thought it was way too over the top, and was surprised they didn't put a halo like effect around his head. It was just too much for me to take.

The one thing I really respect about BSG is its' creative writing- even if it's in its final season there's no need for sloppiness at this point.

I remembered what bugged me about Tigh being a Cylon. It turns out this was actually a deleted scene from the miniseries so perhaps this information that Jimmy told Prez Roslin doesn't count:

"You know, Colonel Tigh is third generation colonial warrior. His father was a decorated fighter pilot killed in combat. His grandfather was Chief of Staff to President Mueller."

I'm probably not the first one to point this scene out.

Wrong! Bob Dylan wrote All Along the Watchtower. Jimi Hendrix wrote MacArthur Park. ;)
Next you're going to tell me that Jimi Hendrix didn't write the Star Spangled Banner! :)

Also the "petri" dish reference from last night (c:1887). I find myself ramping up the old ‘willing suspension of disbelief for the moment’ during those type of writing slips.

Yeah, and they speak English as well. :rolleyes:

The writers could have easily gotten the Jesus comparisson across without banging it through our heads multiple times. When they went to the scene where the camera moved panned back and showed Baltar praying with hands in an angelic like pose, I thought it was way too over the top, and was surprised they didn't put a halo like effect around his head. It was just too much for me to take.

The one thing I really respect about BSG is its' creative writing- even if it's in its final season there's no need for sloppiness at this point.

It wasn't sloppy writing. You completely missed the point. That entire sequence is hilarious because of the sheer absurdity. Callis' performance in that scene was pitch perfect, as Baltar was shocked himself that such a comparison was being made. The writers even tell the audience that they are wrong for thinking Baltar is Jesus like, when they show him shaving his beard. It's very smart and clever writing.

It wasn't sloppy writing. You completely missed the point. That entire sequence is hilarious because of the sheer absurdity. Callis' performance in that scene was pitch perfect, as Baltar was shocked himself that such a comparison was being made. The writers even tell the audience that they are wrong for thinking Baltar is Jesus like, when they show him shaving his beard. It's very smart and clever writing.I didn't miss the point, I just think they were trying too hard to get it across. Considering the idea of monotheism is a new idea to the colonists, the setting up of Baltar as a "prophet", false or otherwise comes completely out of the blue. Next thing you know he'll be "laying on of hands" (he was quite close to it with the boy), he already made sure many times to mention to his "followers" that he was "praying for him". Was that a truly noble act or just self serving?

Next thing you know he'll be "laying on of hands" (he was quite close to it with the boy), he already made sure many times to mention to his "followers" that he was "praying for him". Was that a truly noble act or just self serving?

He did do the "laying on of hands". And it was self-serving. Again the actor's performance got this across very well. And the Baltar character is a complete egoist. That little scene was supposed to be outrageous. The purpose wasn't to make a comparison to Jesus, it was a commentary on religion.

The one thing that was heavy handed were the close ups of the 4 on board. We know they're cylons, they know they're cylons. Their facial expressions of 'What could I do?:eek:" were overdone.

Oh wait. Dave Fi are you saying that the story wasn't progressing in a direction where Baltar would become a "healer"? I agree with you on that. His writings were about the class system of their society, nothing that would make anyone think he was a prophet. But apparently a group read them and thought otherwise. That is a bit of a plot problem(Unless Six had something to do with it, and they explain it later). But not the scene in the premier itself.

I remembered what bugged me about Tigh being a Cylon.

EVERYTHING bugs me about Tigh being a Cylon. I've been a huge fan of the show since I first read the script before it went in to production, and like many in this thread, I've watched every episode religiously. But when Tigh and the Chief were revealed as Cylons, I was certain the next scene would have Adama jumping a shark tank on a flying invisible motorcycle. Combining that with Starbuck's return, I was prepared for this season to be a total disaster.

This episode did little to prove me wrong. Great battle scenes, but every scene with Starbuck rubs me the wrong way. There's no way they'd let her out of a cell, with the evidence at hand. Her whole storyline is totally contrived. With what we've seen from Rosilyn in the past, she should have an airlock all ready and waiting for Starbuck. At least we're seeing Tigh appear to fight some Cylon urges. And how long were the Chief and Boomber banging each other without either one noticing the other's spine glowing? The writer's are going to have to work hard to get me back and embrace this story line.

But damn, great battle scenes.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u98/adzez/ef2b6947.jpg

I took a picture from a crappy digital camera of my PJ :o

What bugs me about Tigh being a Cylon is that he and Adama came up through the ranks together during the first Cylon war, 40 years ago. According to the little pre-Razor webisodes, Adama stumbles across one of the Cylon's early experiments in developing biological forms back then--how the hell was Tigh fully formed and functional, and serving as a Colonial Warrior? They're going to have to do some fancy dancing to explain that stuff. We'll see.

And I agree with you, vfxproducer--I don't buy the way that they're handling Starbuck. Until there's some reasonable explanation for what happened to her, she should be in the brig; she's apparently about to prove that point by threatening Roslyn. The fact that she can't understand why, under the circumstances that they can't just trust her is also ridiculous. I think that the Cylon-hating Starbuck that we've grown to know and love would be suicidal after learning the facts. She just brushes it all aside--"well, I don't know how I survived an apparently fatal explosion of my ship or how I returned in a brand new one or why I only have conscious memories of about 6 hours for the past two months, or how I got to Earth or how I got back, but frak all that--I know that I've been to Earth and I know that I can lead you back in some strange, intuitive fashion and you should trust me".

Unless Adama was programmed to remember fighting alongside Tigh. ;)

Unless Adama was programmed to remember fighting alongside Tigh. ;)


Then lee and his brother would be Hybrids which I don't think is the best idea since it seams in prior seasons the big deal was Athena/Boomers child. Now that the chief also has a hybrid baby it pretty much takes away from the whole storyline on how important Hera is. So if Lee is a hybrid due to Adam being a Cylon then Lee would be the one to try and bring the two sides together in the end. To predictable for me I guess. Same as if Lee was the final one I would think that Adam was there when he was born and raised him as best he could so I don't buy that angle either. I also get the feeling the Chief and Tigh being cylons was an after thought of the writers in an effort to give us some dramatic ending. Didn't the Chief already think he was a Cylon at one point when he pounded on Kali in the hanger. Well I know one thing this season will be interesting.

Re: Baltar as Jesus/Savior

In some episode a long time back, there was a flashback where Baltar and Six were on the outside deck of Baltar's fancy house. The scene ended with Baltar leaning back onto the railing of the deck, his arms outstretched and the camera angle lifted up into the air revealing Baltar to be in the classic "Jesus on the Cross" pose.

So the foreshadowing (or whatever point Moore was trying to get across) has existed for quite some time.

What bugs me about Tigh being a Cylon is that he and Adama came up through the ranks together during the first Cylon war, 40 years ago. According to the little pre-Razor webisodes, Adama stumbles across one of the Cylon's early experiments in developing biological forms back then--how the hell was Tigh fully formed and functional, and serving as a Colonial Warrior? They're going to have to do some fancy dancing to explain that stuff. We'll see.

............

I don't think you can rule out the possibility that Tigh could have been quietly 'replaced' by his Cylon twin at some point, or at least the writers can use that to explain things. A DNA sample and some sort of memory download into the new 'Cylon Tigh' and off we go. The same could be true of the others.

I think the Final Five are hybrids of a sort. Importantly, we know little about their childhoods. We've never met their parents. The only one who has spoken about his parents is Chief Tyrol, but those could be implanted memories. Perhaps they are the first experimental humanoid Cylons. Maybe they are Lords of Kobol.

I don't believe they can resurrect, but they are still programmed to behave in certain ways. That's why they all ended up where they are, close to positions of importance or power. That's why they even survived the initial attack.

I suppose this line of thinking would remove Lee as a possibility for the fifth since we know his mom and dad. We don't know much about Roslin's past, but what's the point of Tory being a Cylon if Roslin is one? I still like the idea of Zarek as the last, or maybe even Cain.

Whats neat about how the whole Tight and others, were they always Cylons or were they some how exchanged at some point. The great thing is they could explain it in so many ways.

What if the whole happened before thing is true, and the five are some wild gene from the past that manifested itself, and creates the final five, kinda like the red hair gene that comes up later, human cylon breeding creates the lords of Kobal, and they are just old Cylons from the past?

The biggest clue about the role of the final five is that the Cylons themselves are programmed to not think about them.

That really only leaves two scenarios.

1. They are deep, deep sleeper agents. Buried so deep that only in a case where one of them is is in imminent danger of being killed can a Cylon recognize them.

2. They are persona non grata. They did something to piss off the bosses.

Perhaps another clue is that each one aids an important part of the bigger plan (the one that God has, not the Cylons themselves). Anders is attached to Starbuck, who is obviously critical, has a destiny and whatnot. Tigh is attached to Adama. Chief is attached to the ship itself. And Tory is attached to the prez.

Then there is a vague implication that the whole Lords of Kobol versus the One True God may have some bearing on what is going. In a way, Cylon vs human could be a proxy war.

On the upside, Season 4 is on story and moving. BSG is only great when they're on the topic of finding Earth or fighting the Cylons. Both were happening this time episode.

2. They are persona non grata. They did something to piss off the bosses.

Or they are the bosses,
Did you notice the Awe and Apologies when D'Anna first saw them?


Perhaps another clue is that each one aids an important part of the bigger plan (the one that God has, not the Cylons themselves). Anders is attached to Starbuck, who is obviously critical, has a destiny and whatnot. Tigh is attached to Adama. Chief is attached to the ship itself. And Tory is attached to the prez.


Thats a pretty fair conclusion. maybe they are their "guides/angels/daemons" etc..

I don't think you can rule out the possibility that Tigh could have been quietly 'replaced' by his Cylon twin at some point, or at least the writers can use that to explain things.
Another common television plot device would be to have Tigh's parents adopt him as a child not knowing they were adopting a child that would grow up to be a Cylon sleeper agent. His family is famous and powerful and it would make sense that they would do anything to pass on the family name (assuming that deleted scene still counts). That would be exactly where the Cylons would want their first agent.

I can image Tigh being an early hybrid prototype. Didn't quite get the bugs worked out, did they? This model became a self-pitying drunk. The subsequent models turned out a lot better.

Rewatching the miniseries is maddening. Cylons Cylons Cylons! There's hardly one damn scene where there isn't a Cylon somewhere! And amazingly every single one of them survived the attack.

Another common television plot device would be to have Tigh's parents adopt him as a child not knowing they were adopting a child that would grow up to be a Cylon sleeper agent.That's even worse. Tigh fought in the original Cylon conflict--it would mean that the Cylons had developed biological forms a decade or more before they even rebelled, before they were called Cylons and they were just...labor-saving household appliances and such.

It will be interesting to get more of the back story when the series Caprica premieres. Just how were robots used in pre-war Colonial society?

We have to stop thinking of the F5 as the same sort of Cylon as the other 7. Remember that Moore tells us they are fundamentally different. Obviously, Tigh couldn't have been a humanoid Cylon all that time ago since they hadn't been "invented" yet. My guess is there's some kind of time warping or dimension swapping, or something like that going on here - the whole "this has happened before and it will happen again" concept would perhaps speak to the circular theory of time as opposed to the linear. And clearly, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

LOL!! I was thinking the same thing while reading your post and came to the same conclusion you did in that last sentence! :p:D

Do we have confirmation that they are the final Five? For all we know Tigh, Anders, etc might still be human, but during their time on New Caprica the cyclons might have found a way to mess with them, neural implants etc.

We have to stop thinking of the F5 as the same sort of Cylon as the other 7. Remember that Moore tells us they are fundamentally different.
Agreed. For some reason beyond my ken (and probably beyond my Barbie, as well :rolleyes:), many seem to be treating that aspect as inconsequential simply because it hasn't been made specific enough yet.
My guess is there's some kind of time warping or dimension swapping, or something like that going on here - the whole "this has happened before and it will happen again" concept would perhaps speak to the circular theory of time as opposed to the linear.
Quite possible. Then again, based upon our experience in Season 3, it may turn out that Ron Moore was just as enamored with the old CS&N song 'Deja Vu', as he was with 'Watchtower'. ;)
And clearly, I have no idea what I'm talking about.
LOL!! I was thinking the same thing while reading your post and came to the same conclusion you did in that last sentence! :p:D
Now that's a little ambiguous, Keenan. I understand that Arch is saying he has no idea what he's talking about. OTOH, your statement can be interpreted as either setting forth the belief that you have no idea what you're talking about, or think that Arch has no idea what He is talking about, as well. Or will claraification only compound the problem? :D Never mind. ;)

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I don't think you can rule out the possibility that Tigh could have been quietly 'replaced' by his Cylon twin at some point, or at least the writers can use that to explain things. A DNA sample and some sort of memory download into the new 'Cylon Tigh' and off we go. The same could be true of the others.

For a real mind FRAK, maybe w learn later on in the season the real Tigh has been imprisoned on a BaseStar for the better part of 35 years.

I really liked the episode quite a bit but the blatant comparison of Baltar to Jesus was stunning. Ususally they're not so "in your face" about it.

They are on their way to earth. With the Greek\Roman mythology and now Christian overtones, it's going to be interesting what they find there, or rather when...

Baltar and Six also seem to be paralleling Adam and Eve and their fall from grace.

Now that's a little ambiguous, Keenan. I understand that Arch is saying he has no idea what he's talking about. OTOH, your statement can be interpreted as either setting forth the belief that you have no idea what you're talking about, or think that Arch has no idea what He is talking about, as well. Or will claraification only compound the problem? :D Never mind. ;)

_________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Let the below pic summarize what I think...:p

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/864/scratchheadbo9.png

For a real mind FRAK, maybe w learn later on in the season the real Tigh has been imprisoned on a BaseStar for the better part of 35 years.

Or the real Tigh is still imprisoned on New Caprica. Was thinking also about the final Cylon maybe one of the girls in Baltars group, since the other 4 are in a place that can really hurt the fleet if needed. Maybe one of those ladies is there to guide Baltar for whatever reason. From the previews it appears that Starbuck and Roslin are on a basestar that is experiencing a meltdown of some sort. Is it possible Starbuck changes Roslins mind about the direction they are going and at one point get taken by Roslins assistant and brought to the ship.

EVERYTHING bugs me about Tigh being a Cylon. I've been a huge fan of the show since I first read the script before it went in to production, and like many in this thread, I've watched every episode religiously. But when Tigh and the Chief were revealed as Cylons, I was certain the next scene would have Adama jumping a shark tank on a flying invisible motorcycle. Combining that with Starbuck's return, I was prepared for this season to be a total disaster.

This episode did little to prove me wrong. Great battle scenes, but every scene with Starbuck rubs me the wrong way. There's no way they'd let her out of a cell, with the evidence at hand. Her whole storyline is totally contrived. With what we've seen from Rosilyn in the past, she should have an airlock all ready and waiting for Starbuck. At least we're seeing Tigh appear to fight some Cylon urges. And how long were the Chief and Boomber banging each other without either one noticing the other's spine glowing? The writer's are going to have to work hard to get me back and embrace this story line.

But damn, great battle scenes.

Not just Tigh and his missing eyeball (IF THE CYLONS RECOGNIZE ANDERS, WHY DIDN'T RECOGNIZE TIGH ON NEW CAPRICA???)

I am still disappointed from last season's reveal of 4 of the final 5. Two important characters, and two lesser characters now thrown into the mix. I mean, I know it had to be somebody, but Tigh, Chief, Anders, and the Prez' right hand lady has always been a weak 4 of the final five.

That said, still a great ep friday.

I felt it was a just matter of recognition. The toaster's red eye was reflected in Anders' eye. It recognized him as one of the final 5 and seemed to shut down, as if the F5 were not to be harmed. The attack thus had to be called off. Next week we'll see them scheming about what to do now - and the return of Brother Cavel, my favorite Cylon. :D

Can't say I feel the same way, as they harped on it for a bit and in the HD version, the color and graphic in his eye changes a bit, then flashes right before the cylon takes off.

Furthermore, it seems anders doesn't have any recollection of anything happening to him, he just doesn't know why he froze up.

It was pretty obvious some sort of exchange went on. There was a point where you see the cylon raider recognize him as cylon, but then the scene dragged on, and it looked like it triggered the cylon to pass information on.

Not just Tigh and his missing eyeball (IF THE CYLONS RECOGNIZE ANDERS, WHY DIDN'T RECOGNIZE TIGH ON NEW CAPRICA???)


They might not have been able to recognize Tigh on New Caprica since Tigh and the others weren't "activated" yet.

Not just Tigh and his missing eyeball (IF THE CYLONS RECOGNIZE ANDERS, WHY DIDN'T RECOGNIZE TIGH ON NEW CAPRICA???

I am still disappointed from last season's reveal of 4 of the final 5. Two important characters, and two lesser characters now thrown into the mix. I mean, I know it had to be somebody, but Tigh, Chief, Anders, and the Prez' right hand lady has always been a weak 4 of the final five.


That said, still a great ep friday.


The biological cylons seem to not know. We also don't know yet if the raiders even know, or if somehow anders communicated with that one raider with the eye flash. After all, it look like it was ready to blow him out of the sky.

I'm looking at the rolls these characters play, and they're perfect plants for the cylons. Each very close to an important character, or object.

More over, doesn't this mean Cali and Chiefs kid is also a hybrid?

Oh, and I loved the bridge scene from Fridays show. Talk about a shock seeing Tigh taking out Adama during the biggest battle yet, only to snap out of his fear induced day dreaming. That was pure cinematic gold, and had me going, "he did not just do that, what are they going to do, what will happen to liegh, ect". Once they came back to reality, I almost felt Tigh was going to blow his brains out right there, he looked so scared and disgusted, but he then pulled himself back together.

Good, good stuff!

Do we have confirmation that they are the final Five? For all we know Tigh, Anders, etc might still be human, but during their time on New Caprica the cyclons might have found a way to mess with them, neural implants etc.

Unless the writers of the show have confirmed it, I was also thinking along these lines. Anders "survived" on Caprica all that time before Starbuck eventually rescued his group. Anders could very well have been brainwashed and allowed to survive for some greater purpose.

Both Tigh and the Chief were stressed on New Caprica, so entirely possible something happened to them there. And lastly, we don't know a whole lot of backstory for the Prez' new assistant. She just sort of popped in once the other guy died, so any number of things could have happened to her in the past.

At this point, until the "final 4" do something definitively cylon-like the door is always open for this to be a big misdirect. Perhaps even the real final 5 are involved in this to keep themselves from being discovered.

Unless the writers of the show have confirmed it, I was also thinking along these lines. Anders "survived" on Caprica all that time before Starbuck eventually rescued his group. Anders could very well have been brainwashed and allowed to survive for some greater purpose.

Both Tigh and the Chief were stressed on New Caprica, so entirely possible something happened to them there. And lastly, we don't know a whole lot of backstory for the Prez' new assistant. She just sort of popped in once the other guy died, so any number of things could have happened to her in the past.

At this point, until the "final 4" do something definitively cylon-like the door is always open for this to be a big misdirect. Perhaps even the real final 5 are involved in this to keep themselves from being discovered.


Yes I do agree here as the writers maybe trying to do a big misdirect and the Final 5 are just people we have never seen before or maybe we have just never paid attention to them. The watchtower 4 all could have been brainwashed to believe they are Cylons in an effort to disrupt the fleet.

Originally Posted by cavalierlwt
Do we have confirmation that they are the final Five?

Only if you believe the opening credits :)

That's even worse. Tigh fought in the original Cylon conflict--it would mean that the Cylons had developed biological forms a decade or more before they even rebelled, before they were called Cylons and they were just...labor-saving household appliances and such.

It will be interesting to get more of the back story when the series Caprica premieres. Just how were robots used in pre-war Colonial society?

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the FIVE seem to go way, way back since they seem to be synonymous with the priests from the Temple of Five, built 4,000 years prior. The Five seem to, in some way, be the architects of the Cylon "plan."

Only if you believe the opening credits :)

Or Moore for that matter, he said so in the pre-thingy review show, something about how "appropriate" the final four are who they are.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the FIVE seem to go way, way back since they seem to be synonymous with the priests from the Temple of Five, built 4,000 years prior. The Five seem to, in some way, be the architects of the Cylon "plan."

Has anyone played Metal Gear Solid? Wonder if Moore has played it, as this who "Five" thing irks of the Patriots from MGS, or the Free Masons, thoes types of groups who have plans and create a destiny that people are pawns in.

The biological cylons seem to not know. We also don't know yet if the raiders even know, or if somehow anders communicated with that one raider with the eye flash. After all, it look like it was ready to blow him out of the sky.
Either you're watching some overseas variation of the show, or you need to go back and watch it in slo-mo on a DVR.

Here's what actually happened:

Anders warns Seelix that there's a cylon raider on her tail. Seelix does a 180 with the raider still on her tail. Suddenly, the raider comes to almost a dead stop vertically, and slooowly turns to face Anders directly. The cylon raider does not assume a 'kill' position, nor make any attempt to fire upon Anders. Anders wide-eyed, and frozen with fear, either is unable to, or does not, fire. Again, the raider takes NO offensive action, but merely scans Anders eye (IMO, to confirm that Anders - and by extension, the other sleepers, have become truly active). The Raider looks directly at Anders, it's eye slides back and forth twice, he gets the anticipated response, and then flies away. AT NO time did it appear that the raider was planning to blow Anders out of the sky.

what will happen to liegh, ect".
If you can tell me who 'leigh' is :rolleyes: , I may be able to help you determine whether your recollection on that one is any more accurate than the other one. :p

_______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Either you're watching some overseas variation of the show, or you need to go back and watch it in slo-mo on a DVR.

Here's what actually happened:

Anders warns Seelix that there's a cylon raider on her tail. Seelix does a 180 with the raider still on her tail. Suddenly, the raider comes to almost a dead stop vertically, and slooowly turns to face Anders directly. The cylon raider does not assume a 'kill' position, nor make any attempt to fire upon Anders. Anders wide-eyed, and frozen with fear, either is unable to, or does not, fire. Again, the raider takes NO offensive action, but merely scans Anders eye (IMO, to confirm that Anders - and by extension, the other sleepers, have become truly active). The Raider looks directly at Anders, it's eye slides back and forth twice, he gets the anticipated response, and then flies away. AT NO time did it appear that the raider was planning to blow Anders out of the sky.


If you can tell me who 'leigh' is :rolleyes: , I may be able to help you determine whether your recollection on that one is any more accurate than the other one. :p

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

The raider actually shut/closed it's "eye" before turning and flying off, that was the sign for me that some sort of confirmation had been made.

The raider actually shut/closed it's "eye" before turning and flying off, that was the sign for me that some sort of confirmation had been made.
Yup, no question. So let's delve one step further. Since the 'eye' seems to be smaller than the visor anyway, what do they actually need the visor for?
What, they could come up with a metal-alloy visor to protect the eye, but not some sort of transparent composite that could accomplish the same goal without actually having to open and close? :rolleyes: One of these days, those toasters are going to have to learn how to think outside the 'shell'! ;)

________________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I think the raider upon seeing one of the final five, shut down the raider attack and all raiders headed back to the base ships, at which point the other Cylons had defense and no choice but to get out of Dodge.

On next weeks previews Cavil is being told by a six to stop lobotomizing the raiders. why is he doing this (because they stopped the attack without orders) maybe to find some info since he cant box them.

I though someone said that raiders were programed to protect the final five.

Yup, no question. So let's delve one step further. Since the 'eye' seems to be smaller than the visor anyway, what do they actually need the visor for?
What, they could come up with a metal-alloy visor to protect the eye, but not some sort of transparent composite that could accomplish the same goal without actually having to open and close? :rolleyes: One of these days, those toasters are going to have to learn how to think outside the 'shell'! ;)

________________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Funny about that scene with the Raider closing its "eye". I flashed to the scene in The Day the Earth Stood Still where Gort was about to blow away Patricia Neal. When she uttered "Klaatu barada nikto", Gort shut his death ray eye and let her live.

Kinda like what happened to Anders, but without the cool sound bite.

When the Raider closed its eye, it looked to me like it just spun out of control, not really that it retreated. And then the attack was called off. Could be that Anders unwittingly called the attack off himself, or some secret programming operating on a subconcious level did.

It could be that the Centurian and Raider Cylons have some deep programming involved with the F5 that the humanoid Cylons don't.

I'd like #5 to be Billy just for kicks.

My money was on Lee, until the sit down with pops on the couch.

Funny about that scene with the Raider closing its "eye". I flashed to the scene in The Day the Earth Stood Still where Gort was about to blow away Patricia Neal. When she uttered "Klaatu barada nikto", Gort shut his death ray eye and let her live.

Kinda like what happened to Anders, but without the cool sound bite.
Which version are you referiing to, Michael Rennie's or Ringo Starr's? ;)

When the Raider closed its eye, it looked to me like it just spun out of control, not really that it retreated. And then the attack was called off. Could be that Anders unwittingly called the attack off himself, or some secret programming operating on a subconcious level did.

It could be that the Centurian and Raider Cylons have some deep programming involved with the F5 that the humanoid Cylons don't.
Wow, this really is what makes horse racing. Scar's ship (Yes, I'm sticking with my belief that this was Scar, why would you send anything less than your best pilot on this important a mission?) didn't seem out of control to me, just flipped back to head in the opposite direction once the confirmation had been made, to avoid generating any potential further suspicion by the BSG fighter crews. And as soon as (Scar) flipped back, all the other cylon ships turned away as well. If you get a chance, watch it again to see if my POV makes sense under the circumstances.

I'd like #5 to be Billy just for kicks.

My money was on Lee, until the sit down with pops on the couch.

My serious money is stll on both Bill and Lee, but each for different reasons as before. Lee makes better sense. Bill is more in line with RDM's 'left field' approach.

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

It could be that the Centurian and Raider Cylons have some deep programming involved with the F5 that the humanoid Cylons don't.

That's what I'm thinking, since D'anna was going on about The Five and seemed to indicate that THEY are the ones who programmed all of them (the 7, centurions, raiders, etc).

What it looked like to me was that the raider "felt" something, turned and attained some sort of confirmation from/in Anders and issued a full scale retreat order. We've seen a similar recall before, in the extended version of Razor, when the centurion walked away from young Cain.

Remember that the Raiders can somehow transmit code when they open the eye shield thingies. LOL They transmitted the viruses that way in earlier episodes. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it is certainly a possibility.

I personally agree with those who think the raider was just scanning Anders to confirm he was a Cylon, then turned and ran when he did confirm it. But I'm not ruling out the possibility that information was sent from Anders or from the raider.

Which version are you referiing to, Michael Rennie's or Ringo Starr's? ;)

Puleeeese! :D


Wow, this really is what makes horse racing. Scar's ship (Yes, I'm sticking with my belief that this was Scar, why would you send anything less than your best pilot on this important a mission?) didn't seem out of control to me, just flipped back to head in the opposite direction once the confirmation had been made, to avoid generating any potential further suspicion by the BSG fighter crews. And as soon as (Scar) flipped back, all the other cylon ships turned away as well. If you get a chance, watch it again to see if my POV makes sense under the circumstances.

While Scar would have been a good Raider for that scene, didn't Kat blow him to the Cylon equivalent of kingdom come after the Resurrection ship was destroyed?

Yes Kat did blow him up as Starback played chicken with him commenting on how tough he would be knowing he can't resurrect. And if the admiral turned out to be the Final Cylon then why would Tigh even need to be one, just seems like a poor idea to me.

I remembered what bugged me about Tigh being a Cylon. It turns out this was actually a deleted scene from the miniseries so perhaps this information that Jimmy told Prez Roslin doesn't count:

"You know, Colonel Tigh is third generation colonial warrior. His father was a decorated fighter pilot killed in combat. His grandfather was Chief of Staff to President Mueller."

I'm probably not the first one to point this scene out.

You certainly don't expect the writers of BSG to be consistent do you?
I gave up any hope in season 3 that they'd be rational and consistent. It's clear the writers DIDN'T 'have a plan' and they're just winging it. They've admitted that they only recently decided who the 4 outed spylons would be. That's pretty crappy.

I do enjoy the premise, the basic characters, the acting and the dialog.

The plot is dogmeat.

Scar couldn't resurrect because the Resurrection ship was too far away, correct?

Scar couldn't resurrect because the Resurrection ship was too far away, correct?

That's correct. Sorry Palladin, but your boy Scar is...ah...toast. ;)

That's correct. Sorry Palladin, but your boy Scar is...ah...toast. ;)
:eek:

This is what I get for not owning the DVD series for all 3 seasons. Just can't trust those frakkin' cylons. :(

Ah, what the hell, I'll give it a shot anyway. ;):

Obviously, many of you guys missed the over-extended version of Razer in which the the closely guarded Resurrection Dinghy was revealed. You're confusing the original Scar with the 'sleeper' Scar introduced during the 'Shelter from the Storm' episode.

See, you snooze, you lose. :D

___________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Just wanted to get my theory out there and see what people think. I believe the ending of this show is becoming somewhat obvious as time goes on...but I might be completely off base.

I believe that Galactica will crash land on Ancient Earth. On Earth the humans will forsake technology because of what happened with the Cylons.

Baltar will be persecuted by the humans. He will die...only to rise again as ta da the 12th cylon...he will then ascend to space via basestar.

This being ancient history will lay the foundation for christianity on future earth(Now).

Maybe old news but pretty cool article on Wired

http://www.wired.com/entertainment/hollywood/news/2008/04/bsg_preview#previouspost

Or they are the bosses,
Did you notice the Awe and Apologies when D'Anna first saw them?

This is very true. Solid point to be made.

IF THE CYLONS RECOGNIZE ANDERS, WHY DIDN'T RECOGNIZE TIGH ON NEW CAPRICA???

For that matter, why didn't they recognize Anders?

- - -

I know it is probably wrong to mine a guy's older material for answers, but writers often go back to themes, and I wonder if Ron Moore and Deep Space 9 might offer some clues.

I think the theme of guardians makes more sense for the final five, especially in the context of DS9's theme where Ben was a guardian. One of takeaways from Ron Moore's interviews has been that Moore was never able to tell the story he wanted to tell with DS9, and that Galactica is, to some extent, the story he wants to tell. By that I mean his big story. The way that moby Dick was Herman Melville's big story -- his grand comment on the human condition.

Also, if they're not guardians of some part of some plan that is bigger than the Cylons themselves, why would the Cylons almost chronically and clumsily let them escape? Anders, Tigh and the Chief have done nothing except turn and directly fight the Cylons tooth and nail since the beginning. If the Cylons really, really had it in them to kill them, they would have done it by now.

It should also be pointed out that the Lords of Kobol and the One True God clearly are direct actors in the story. Both have some interest in making sure the fleet makes it to Earth, even if for various reasons the end game may be to annihilate the other guy and his followers.

Remember, there was some backstory from season two about a single jealous god who ran off the others from Kobol and precipitated the exodus to the thirteen colonies. Maybe he wants a second shot at the title. One assumes that eventually the story will have to include some sort of showdown between the One True God and the Lords of Kobol.

Just wanted to get my theory out there and see what people think. I believe the ending of this show is becoming somewhat obvious as time goes on...but I might be completely off base.

I believe that Galactica will crash land on Ancient Earth. On Earth the humans will forsake technology because of what happened with the Cylons.

Baltar will be persecuted by the humans. He will die...only to rise again as ta da the 12th cylon...he will then ascend to space via basestar.

This being ancient history will lay the foundation for christianity on future earth(Now).

I've actually been afraid they would do something like this for a while now. But I'm going on the assumption that because we have already thought of it, it's unlikely they'll go there. :p

I believe the show is set in the future. That's why they call things petri dishes and use French phrases ... and hear All Along the Watchtower. Like many, I wonder if the people of the twelve colonies actually came from Earth originally, not Kobol.

T

Remember, there was some backstory from season two about a single jealous god who ran off the others from Kobol and precipitated the exodus to the thirteen colonies. Maybe he wants a second shot at the title. One assumes that eventually the story will have to include some sort of showdown between the One True God and the Lords of Kobol.

There's also the thing with the Temple of Five. Five priests, synonymous with the five cylons, dedicated to "The One Whose Name Cannot be Spoken." I'm thinking that some way/some how, Kara Thrace is that "One." The five priests were dedicated to her, in some incarnation.

This is very true. Solid point to be made.

For that matter, why didn't they recognize Anders?



As far as we know, Tigh (and Anders) was never in contact with a Raider or a BaseStar. Remember, the "animal" Cylons seem to be the only ones who who can identify the final five). The "skinjobs" are programmed not to even think about the final five, much less be able to identify them.

There's also the thing with the Temple of Five. Five priests, synonymous with the five cylons, dedicated to "The One Whose Name Cannot be Spoken." I'm thinking that some way/some how, Kara Thrace is that "One." The five priests were dedicated to her, in some incarnation.

I'm not sold on Starbuck being the One, or the final cylon.

Leoben has said that all the Cylons are aware that she is important and has a destiny. That knocks her, IMHO, out of contention for being the last Cylon.

- - -

Small question to all the more hardcore BSG followers:

I was watching Razor. Am I correct in taking away that this group of TOS style Cylons represents an isolated group of Cylons that got separated from the larger group of Cylons who eventually go on to conduct the attack on the Twelve Colonies?

I still can't imagine where they're going with that.

I almost wonder if this group already found Earth, and they're trying to keep the humans and the Cylons away.

As far as we know, Tigh (and Anders) was never in contact with a Raider or a BaseStar. Remember, the "animal" Cylons seem to be the only ones who who can identify the final five). The "skinjobs" are programmed not to even think about the final five, much less be able to identify them.

Weren't there Raiders flying missions on New Caprica?

Besides that, I think the better explanation for Anders interacting wth the Raider is that he sent it a signal, not too different than what Boomer did in the epsidoe where Galactica is infected by the computer virus.

Small question to all the more hardcore BSG followers:

I was watching Razor. Am I correct in taking away that this group of TOS style Cylons represents an isolated group of Cylons that got separated from the larger group of Cylons who eventually go on to conduct the attack on the Twelve Colonies?


I'd have to go back and listen to the DVD commentary again, but I believe the idea is that the old-style Centurions were too independent, asked too many questions.....so they were discontinued and destroyed. Except for this one small group, who were apparently out on a mission or something and escaped termination.

I have no idea if they're part of the larger storyline or not. I kinda think they were just paying homage to the original series.

Weren't there Raiders flying missions on New Caprica?


There were, but it seems unlikely that any of the Raiders would have had direct contact with them, seeing as how they were all flying around in the sky and Anders/Tigh/Tyrol/Tory were all on the ground.

It is also possible that hearing the Watchtower riff is what "activated" them as Cylons, and as such they would have not been recognized previous to that.

What bugs me about Tigh being a Cylon is that he and Adama came up through the ranks together during the first Cylon war, 40 years ago. According to the little pre-Razor webisodes, Adama stumbles across one of the Cylon's early experiments in developing biological forms back then--how the hell was Tigh fully formed and functional, and serving as a Colonial Warrior? They're going to have to do some fancy dancing to explain that stuff. We'll see.



I think I've got all this figured out. Now if I can just put it into words that make some sense.....;)

OK, we know the Final Five are fundamentally different from the rest of the Cylons. In a very real way, they're not even really Cylons - they have free will which allows them to reject their programming and live their lives as human beings.

It seems to me the Final Five are capable of some kind of reincarnation -- not the resurrection that regular Cylons do, but more like reincarnation of their essence into a new human body, presumbly an infant. This would allow them to live a normal human life, age, die, and be reborn as a new person ("all this has happened before, and all this will happen again").

It may even be that the Final Five have the ability to survive from one cycle of human existence into the next, which explains why the Cylons are aware of the circular timeline. It may even be that the Final Five are in fact somehow responsible for the beginning of each new cycle.

Maybe that makes sense. If not, attribute it to me being up WAY past my bedtime. :)

Darn, I shouldn't have read this thread. I was convinced the last Cylon was Bob Dylan. ;)

What an awesome episode!

OMG (no pun intended) Baltar pulling a "Jesus", with robe, beard and even miracle, and even the "devil" speaking to his ear with a red dress, it's like seeing one of those Jesus movies.

I'm still wondering what made the child healthy again..

Viral encephalitis is actually pretty common, and is usually so mild it is either misdiagnosed or missed completely (i.e. the infected person doesn;t even go in for treatment). So it didn't surprise me that the kid got better, probably all on his own. Hell, it could all have been a ploy by the redhead (or one of the other more cunning women) to set Balthar up for the others.

I'm still a bit disappointed with the entire cylon storyline. We get so little of their actual culture that their motivations are almost completely obscure. Why do they want to attack humans? Why do they insist on persecuting the final remnants so far from "known" space? If they had so thoroughly infiltrated human society, how could ANY ships escape, or do they want some to lead them to Earth? And if so, why?

The "Final 5" are even more problematic. Hopefully we will get a real resolution. I listen to Ron Moores podcasts and it seems like he has a rock solid plan, but we'll see.

I'm of the opinion that the humanoid cylons were designed and programmed by some other intelligence and don't fully understand their own impulses and directives. They attribute a lot to "God" without really knowing the origins of their beliefs. So hopefully the "final 5" are able to regain control of the cylon empire and bring peace. Heck, the entire point of the final 5 may be to gain a better understanding of humanity in order to fully realize the cylon ambition (which seems to imitate humans as much as possible).

On a side note, did the Chief ever interact with the raider they caught in season 1? I think it was "dead" and the eye wasn't on, but that is one final 5 who had close contact with a raider (and Starbuck rode in it).

On a side note, did the Chief ever interact with the raider they caught in season 1? I think it was "dead" and the eye wasn't on, but that is one final 5 who had close contact with a raider (and Starbuck rode in it).

I think that Raider was dead. It's soul was probably resurrected into another Raider already. The Raider carcass was probably just "alive" enough to allow Starbuck to get back to Galactica.

ft

All I know is that if this ends up being one big "dream sequence" I'm not going to be a happy camper. I can just see Starbuck waking up to a Cylon attack on New Caprica only after dreaming this whole thing.

On another note...anyone see last weeks issue of Entertainment Weekly with Katee Sackhoff in it? I'm still not convinced it was her. WOW!

Oh, and I loved the bridge scene from Fridays show. Talk about a shock seeing Tigh taking out Adama during the biggest battle yet, only to snap out of his fear induced day dreaming. That was pure cinematic gold, and had me going, "he did not just do that, what are they going to do, what will happen to Lee, etc". Once they came back to reality, I almost felt Tigh was going to blow his brains out right there, he looked so scared and disgusted, but he then pulled himself back together.

OK, we know the Final Five are fundamentally different from the rest of the Cylons. In a very real way, they're not even really Cylons - they have free will which allows them to reject their programming and live their lives as human beings.

I interpreted the bridge scene as Tigh overriding/ignoring the programming to kill Adama, something that Sharon was unable to do. Thus, one fundamental difference of the final five models.

jdg

I really don't think that Tigh was resisting programming. He was just having a walking nightmare about one of the many ways in which he could possibly betray humanity. If he, Anders, Torrey or Chief Tyrol were fractionally as patriotic as they think of themselves as being, they would turn themselves and the others in; anything else is putting the handful of humanity which remains at risk, since they can't possibly know that they can resist the impulse to do something which they've been programmed to do. Sharon would never have imagined that she could shoot Adama and she'd struggled to resist the impulse to commit a couple of acts of on-board sabotage. She pretty much knew that she was a Cylon before her mission on that Base Star confirmed it--like a true patriot, the knowledge drove her to attempt suicide. The four of the Final Five who have been revealed are cowardly, traitorous jerks, each and every one of them.

But then, maybe if Athena can defy her people time and again, maybe they can. Again, they can't be sure, so they should turn themselves in.

I think that Raider was dead. It's soul was probably resurrected into another Raider already. The Raider carcass was probably just "alive" enough to allow Starbuck to get back to Galactica.

ft

Raiders don't download and regenerate, as I understand it. Only the humanoid models do that.

Raiders don't download and regenerate, as I understand it. Only the humanoid models do that.

Then what's up with the speculation (read here) that Scar was flying against Starbuck knowing that there was no resurection ship around? Maybe it was just speculation ... I don't know.

Raiders don't download and regenerate, as I understand it. Only the humanoid models do that.Have you seen the "Scar" episode? The fact that Scar is so good because he's been through so many battles, during many of which "he" was killed, is the crux of the plot. In her cell in the brig Sharon/Athena explains it to a horrified Starbuck, saying something like, "If you could bring back fallen fighters, wouldn't you? Death becomes a learning experience."

EDIT: I found a transcript of the episode online:
Boomer: This guy's probably died and been reborn a dozen times. You may have faced him before.

Starbuck: So what, raiders reincarnate? Just like you?

Boomer: Yeah, just like me.

Starbuck: Great. What a frakkin' world.

Boomer: A raider's much like a trained animal, with the basic consciousness and survival instinct. But with the destruction of the resurrection ship, when they die, they're really dead. So, they're not gonna mount mass attacks where they could have major casualties.

Starbuck: Raiders reincarnate?

Boomer: Makes sense, doesn't it? It takes months for you to train a nugget into an effective viper pilot. And then they get killed. And their experience, their knowledge, their skill sets. They're all lost forever. So, if you could bring 'em back and put 'em in a brand new body, wouldn't you do it? 'Cause death then becomes a learning experience. How, uh-- how many pilots have we lost? I mean, have you lost?

Starbuck: You know, there are times when I look at you and I forget what you are. All I see is that kid that pooched her landings day after day. The kid that was frakkin' the chief and thinking she was getting away with it.

Boomer: Yeah, I remember. [Crying] You were like a big sister to--

Boomer reaches out to touch Starbuck o*n the leg. The marines promptly **** and raise their rifles to stop her.

Boomer: Kara, um-- be careful of Scar, okay? He's filled with rage.

Starbuck: About what?

Boomer: Dying's a painful and traumatic experience. Every time he's reborn, he's filled with more bitter memories. Scar hates you every bit as much as you hate him.That bit near the end of the scene where Starbuck reminisces about her former relationship with Boomer and Boomer reaches out to touch her is featured in that "What the Frak Is Going On?" clip :).

Have you seen the Scar episode? The fact that Scar is so good because he's been through so many battles, during many of which "he" was killed, is the crux of the plot. In her cell in the brig Sharon explains it to a horrified Starbuck, saying something like, "If you could bring back fallen fighters, wouldn't you? Death becomes a learning experience."

Okay, thanks. Couldn't remember if Raiders were reconstituted or not, and it's been awhile since I saw "Scar". I just remember them celebrating his demise. So, I guess it's only the Centurian "grunts" that never get a chance to "live" again, although both types seem to serve the same purpose - muscle for the humanoids. But the Raiders do have biological parts, unlike the Centurians. Perhaps therein lies the distinction.

My ideal ending would reveal the final (5th of the five) Cylon model only once they reach Earth. He would have arrived many years ago and will have gotten himself into a position to cripple Earth's defenses so the arriving Cylons can launch an all out attack and take over Earth.

Now if they can just get Bill Gates to guest star in the finale...... ;)

Now if they can just get Bill Gates to guest star in the finale...... ;)

Haunted by a "head Melinda"...? :p

I don't know if others here have been doing this but my wife and I have been listening to Season 3 Podcasts and they are illuminating and entertaining. Ronald Moore does one in a University film class. The questions he gets are very good. He is never defensive or in any way negative when someone doesn't like something about the show.
(Some podcasts have poor AQ - it's best to turn off the subwoofer when listening to them.)

It's interesting how many of the major themes are arrived at by others according to his Podcasts. I won't go into all specifics. But most cast members have contributed to the storyline through observations of their character.
I.E.: AJ (Gaeta) did not want to play his death scene as a desperate man in "Collaborators". He felt that his character would not beg , as was scripted. The truth that saves Gaeta comes from Starbuck's mouth. The Chief corroborates what Gaeta had earlier told Starbuck in a very well done scene.
In this same episode it is noted by Moore that Aaron Douglas (Tyrol) was the person who suggested that "Jammer" be the doomed collaborator and "Duck" be the suicide bomber instead of the way it was scripted. His reasoning is good.

There are many instances of how the entire ensemble has been a major player in the development and themes of BSG. The Official Companion books to BSG as well as the Podcasts are filled with info and interesting observations.

Great show!

Okay, thanks. Couldn't remember if Raiders were reconstituted or not, and it's been awhile since I saw "Scar". I just remember them celebrating his demise. So, I guess it's only the Centurian "grunts" that never get a chance to "live" again, although both types seem to serve the same purpose - muscle for the humanoids. But the Raiders do have biological parts, unlike the Centurians. Perhaps therein lies the distinction.For me, that "death becomes a learning experience" line was the whole point of the Scar episode--it was an important examination of an aspect of Cylon resurrection, perhaps their most significant advantage over the humans. Not only do they vastly outnumber humanity, if you kill one of them and they're in range of a resurrection facility, they lose nothing more than a little time. (Of course, the episode also did some nice character-building of Kat and Starbuck and their relationship).

I wouldn't bet that Centurions aren't reincarnated. I'm fairly certain that they all have organic brains at this point, though the Centurions' brains probably aren't much more complex than those in the Raiders. The mostly-mechanical types just don't get reborn in a warm goo-bath, surrounded, carressed and comforted by a small group of loving human-forms (I'm guessing :))

I wouldn't bet that Centurions aren't reincarnated. I'm fairly certain that they all have organic brains at this point, though the Centurions' brains probably aren't much more complex than those in the Raiders. The mostly-mechanical types just don't get reborn in a warm goo-bath, surrounded, carressed and comforted by a small group of loving human-forms (I'm guessing :))

We've seen plenty of Centurions killed, and none of them ever bleed as the Raiders do. Shoot them enough and they'll go down. Sometimes they even explode. But we've never seen any blood, which suggests to me that the Centurions they have no organic parts.

There's also a line in the miniseries that may lend some insight:

Baltar: "Last time we saw the Cylons they looked like walking chrome toasters"
Six: "Those models are still around, they have their uses"

- Which she says it in a dismissive way, as if she finds their existence distasteful. Probably because their use of the Centurions parallels the use of the original Cylons as a way to do the humans' 'dirty work'. I'm guessing there's going to be something revealed about that in next week's episode judging from the preview teaser.

I am confused. So an older Cylon detected that pilot as being a Cylon and didn't attack. But when Sol was being held prisoner, and they tortured him and ripped his eye out, they couldn't tell then?????

We've seen plenty of Centurions killed, and none of them ever bleed as the Raiders do. Shoot them enough and they'll go down. Sometimes they even explode. But we've never seen any blood, which suggests to me that the Centurions they have no organic parts.When have you seen a Raider bleed in battle? The only time we see them battle is in space (though they're probably capable of fighting in an atmosphere as well and when they're destroyed, they just explode. (Just like destroyed Vipers--you don't get to see the blood of the pilots when they die either). The only time we've seen the flesh inside of a Raider's mostly-mechanical carcass was when Starbuck piloted the corpse of one back to Galactica.

I am confused. So an older Cylon detected that pilot as being a Cylon and didn't attack. But when Sol was being held prisoner, and they tortured him and ripped his eye out, they couldn't tell then?????

I can only surmise that the "skin jobs" don't scan. All other models do.

Not sure if this was ever talked about, but it's been bugging me for a while.

I was rewatching the "Story So Far..." that was on iTunes before Season 3 started so that my wife could catch up a little bit. There was a confusing bit involving Sharon (later Athena) and Starbuck (when Starbuck went back to Caprica.

Sharon says that she is the Boomer that Starbuck knows and she has memories of flight school with Starbuck. However, this Sharon wasn't really the Sharon that knew Starbuck. That Sharon (Boomer) was still on Galactica.

So, can Cylons transfer memories from one individual to another without having died/resurrected? Was this just a production error?

Sorry if this has been discussed before.

ft

I am confused. So an older Cylon detected that pilot as being a Cylon and didn't attack. But when Sol was being held prisoner, and they tortured him and ripped his eye out, they couldn't tell then?????It's been suggested that no Cylon could detect that they are Cylons before they were "activated" which happened when they were all hearing "All Along the Watchtower".

Not sure if this was ever talked about, but it's been bugging me for a while.

I was rewatching the "Story So Far..." that was on iTunes before Season 3 started so that my wife could catch up a little bit. There was a confusing bit involving Sharon (later Athena) and Starbuck (when Starbuck went back to Caprica.

Sharon says that she is the Boomer that Starbuck knows and she has memories of flight school with Starbuck. However, this Sharon wasn't really the Sharon that knew Starbuck. That Sharon (Boomer) was still on Galactica.

So, can Cylons transfer memories from one individual to another without having died/resurrected? Was this just a production error?

Sorry if this has been discussed before.

ft

As I recall from Kobol's Last Gleaming, Sharon (the one from Caprica that came back with Helo) says that she has vague memories and recollections of the other Sharon's (the one who was with the Chief on Galactica) life.

Not sure if this was ever talked about, but it's been bugging me for a while.

I was rewatching the "Story So Far..." that was on iTunes before Season 3 started so that my wife could catch up a little bit. There was a confusing bit involving Sharon (later Athena) and Starbuck (when Starbuck went back to Caprica.

Sharon says that she is the Boomer that Starbuck knows and she has memories of flight school with Starbuck. However, this Sharon wasn't really the Sharon that knew Starbuck. That Sharon (Boomer) was still on Galactica.

So, can Cylons transfer memories from one individual to another without having died/resurrected? Was this just a production error?

Sorry if this has been discussed before.

ftI'm sure that it has been discussed before, but who knows when. They may have ways of downloading the memories of individuals prior to ressurection; Sharon/Athena also told Chief Tyrol that she remembered her feelings for him. Sharon/Athena was tasked on Caprica with seducing Helo so that she might be impregnated by him; certainly that would be easier if she were given the memories of the past that Helo shared with "Galactica Sharon". In fact, he'd probably have detected that she wasn't the same; she'd have fatally slipped up somewhere.

I'm disappointed that they just didn't put Starbuck on a Raptor and have her backtrack (as part of a crew) to where she thinks they need to go - then they could confirm/disprove based on what they find.

I'm disappointed that they just didn't put Starbuck on a Raptor and have her backtrack (as part of a crew) to where she thinks they need to go - then they could confirm/disprove based on what they find.

And have her reappear months later all alone on a brand new Raptor?

:D

(might be an interesting way to repair badly damaged ships/fighters tho, if it weren't for the months-long lag)

I'm kinda thinking that the trip that Kara experienced was a metaphor for the death/rebirth that the Cylons go through. Kara died in the wormhole (or what ever it was) and was reborn. The Viper went through as well and was "reborn", so both organic and inorganic matter is reborn this way.

The Eye Of Jupiter as a portal is also part of a whole rebirth. When the pilgrims of the 12 colonies went through the Eye, they experienced a rebirth (probably popped out the other end right next to Jupiter - the huge gas giant with rings).

Or maybe it was the other way around. Pilgrims leaving earth (due to some catastrophe) and coming through the eye the other way to settle on the twelve colonies.

My head's starting to hurt.

ft

(probably popped out the other end right next to Jupiter - the huge gas giant with rings).

My head's starting to hurt.

ft

Yes, your head hurts, the big planet with the rings is Saturn... LOL

Yes, your head hurts, the big planet with the rings is Saturn... LOL

:D

I'm kinda thinking that the trip that Kara experienced was a metaphor for the death/rebirth that the Cylons go through.

Why a metaphor? From the Galactica crew's standpoint, that is EXACTLY what happened to her. Since they know Cylons are ressurected, and they know Cylons have lived/worked under cover among them for years, it is only natural that the crew would assume returning Kara was a ressurected Cylon sleeper agent. Especially since they don't have a working Cylon test. They should have put her in the brig immediately, and never let her walk around the ship. By not having the crew react that way, the writers loose a lot of credibility.

Yes, your head hurts, the big planet with the rings is Saturn... LOL

Actually, Jupiter also has a planetary ring system, albeit not as dense as Saturn's.

Yes, your head hurts, the big planet with the rings is Saturn... LOL

Actually, Jupiter has rings too, but Kara could have meant Saturn. Both are huge gas giants. But seeing as how she went down the Eye Of Jupiter, Jupiter seems to be a better choice.

Here's a picture of the rings of Jupiter.

Rings of Jupiter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:PIA01627_Ringe.jpg)

Why a metaphor? From the Galactica crew's standpoint, that is EXACTLY what happened to her. Since they know Cylons are ressurected, and they know Cylons have lived/worked under cover among them for years, it is only natural that the crew would assume returning Kara was a ressurected Cylon sleeper agent. Especially since they don't have a working Cylon test. They should have put her in the brig immediately, and never let her walk around the ship. By not having the crew react that way, the writers loose a lot of credibility.I wasn't thinking from the crew's perspective. More from the viewer's perspective. Personally, I don't think that Kara is a Cylon. I'm thinking there's more to the whole Eye of Jupiter thing than that. Maybe that Earth wasn't the destination of a group from the 12 colonies, but the starting point that seeded the 12 colonies (someone else mentioned this - so I might be mind plagerising).

Anyways, I'm usually pretty bad with trying to figure out these things. I should just let the story play out. Until next week...

When have you seen a Raider bleed in battle?

Uh....you're kidding me right? The last episode, the one that aired Friday. Starbuck enters the battle, shoots down a Raider, blood and guts get splattered all over her windshield.

There have been other instances. Not sure exactly what episodes but it has happened at least 2-3 other times.

Personally, I don't think that Kara is a Cylon. I'm thinking there's more to the whole Eye of Jupiter thing than that.

RDM has stated several times that Starbuck is defnitely NOT a Cylon. He always says that Starbucks and Baltars' natures as beings are the same.

I think Starbuck really is dead. What we're seeing now is not that "real" Starbuck, it's a manifestation. She's the instrument of "God" (or whatever external force is moving the pieces.

From Moore's explanation I expect Baltar is also, like Starbuck, an "instrument of God", and that the REAL Baltar died in the nuclear blast on Caprica as seen in the pilot. Both Starbuck and Baltar have their 'imaginary friends' governing their actions (Six for Baltar, Leobben for Kara).

Yes, raiders have bled before.

Uh....you're kidding me right? The last episode, the one that aired Friday. Starbuck enters the battle, shoots down a Raider, blood and guts get splattered all over her windshield.

There have been other instances. Not sure exactly what episodes but it has happened at least 2-3 other times.

Don't forget that they practically gutted the captured Raider from the episode where Starbuck crash lands. We get a full anatomy lesson during that whole story arc.

So, can Cylons transfer memories from one individual to another without having died/resurrected? Was this just a production error?

The pool of Cylons of a particular model gains access to the memories once they resurrect. While the Cylons do not have a hive mentality, they do have access to the memory pool of others from their same model.

So, since Boomer died (shot by Cally) and was resurrected, it is presumed that Athena gained access to that pool of memories.

Depending on your view of what she knows, that also entails that when Athena was killed by Helo to go baby chasing on the Basestar that the Cylons probably slurped some of her memories.

Apparently the Cylons don't get very detailed memories out of this, or else Athena was not privy to much of real value, because it is implied that Galactica didn't suffer for her effort to fetch Hera.

Hopefully we won't be treated to any 1:4:9 black ebon monoliths orbiting Jupiter ... :D

Tony

Why a metaphor? From the Galactica crew's standpoint, that is EXACTLY what happened to her. Since they know Cylons are ressurected, and they know Cylons have lived/worked under cover among them for years, it is only natural that the crew would assume returning Kara was a ressurected Cylon sleeper agent. Especially since they don't have a working Cylon test. They should have put her in the brig immediately, and never let her walk around the ship. By not having the crew react that way, the writers loose a lot of credibility.

Except for the fact that Athena, a valued member of their crew, IS a Cylon, everybody knows it, and nobody seems to have any problems with it (at least not anymore).

Also, it's not as if they actually TRUST Starbuck. They do have two heavily armed security guards escorting her everywhere she goes.

Actually, Jupiter also has a planetary ring system, albeit not as dense as Saturn's.

As does Neptune (http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/science/images/neptune5.jpg). I had forgotten about other ringed planets.

Yes, raiders have bled before.

Wow, I didn't mean that to sound so ... short. LOL! I'm not sure what happened to the rest of my post.

Anyway, I had made another point and I guess I'll post it again...

I noticed on re-watch that when Baltar finds out the kid has been "miraculously" cured, Head Six is sort of looking on from behind him. He seems to be unaware of her presence. Is this the first time we've seen her when she was not interacting directly with Baltar? Does this mean something? Is it important, or am I reading too much into it?

Wow, I didn't mean that to sound so ... short. LOL! I'm not sure what happened to the rest of my post.

Anyway, I had made another point and I guess I'll post it again...

I noticed on re-watch that when Baltar finds out the kid has been "miraculously" cured, Head Six is sort of looking on from behind him. He seems to be unaware of her presence. Is this the first time we've seen her when she was not interacting directly with Baltar? Does this mean something? Is it important, or am I reading too much into it?
Its the latter. You're reading too much into it.

In fact, that's become endemic to this thread and the members who post here during the past several months, so don't think its just you. It wasn't always like this, but in more recent times, the BSG thread seems to have become the lastest incarnation of the ancient fable concerning the blind men and the elephant. What little unification is actually ever realized here, seems to quickly unfold and fragment. When you think about it, this is very atypical of Sci-Fi fans. The level of intersection is dramatically limited, which is unusual for this genre. Has anyone else noticed this?

____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind.

I still think that modern Centurions probably have organic brains--I can't imagine that they'd give them to Raiders and not Centurions and not enough of the Centurion would need to be organic for them to bleed when injured. That they would use organics in the human-forms and Raiders and not in Centurions doesn't make any sense. As ground fighting forces they'd benefit just as much from ressurection technology as any of the other models.

I have to agree that there's been no evidence of Centurions having any organics at all. Back when Helo is running from them on Caprica in S-1, he blows two of them up and then finishes one off with a shot to the head. No blood. And head Six tells Baltar that "they're still around and have they're uses", implying that the current Centurions are just upgraded mechanical models. You could be right, but I'd be very surprised. They probably just crank Centurions off the assembly line as needed; they don't have any real skills required other than kicking ass.

Uh....you're kidding me right? The last episode, the one that aired Friday. Starbuck enters the battle, shoots down a Raider, blood and guts get splattered all over her windshield.

There have been other instances. Not sure exactly what episodes but it has happened at least 2-3 other times.I'm not kidding you--I didn't notice that happen in that episode and I certainly never saw it happen before. I just went to the available episodes online and watched it and you're right about that instance (again, it hardly makes sense--the thing exploded as though it were a balloon bursting from too much pressure and not as though its fuel-source and/or ammunition erupted. However, they'd been fighting and running from the Cylons for weeks by Episode 1.9 (You Can't Go Home Again), when Starbuck crashes on a planet after a dogfight and manages to repair the carcass of a Raider and figures out how to fly it to get herself home (wildly unlikely though that was :rolleyes:). Prior to her bringing the thing back, they were utterly unaware that it contained an organic organism, so Vipers couldn't have been splattered with organic gunk during dogfights before that--someone would have noticed. 40 years back during the original war with the Cylons, Raiders were just ships manned by Centurions (the old guy-in-a-suit variety, one of which bails from his Raider and fights with Adama during one of the Razor Flashbacks).

I still think that modern Centurions probably have organic brains--I can't imagine that they'd give them to Raiders and not Centurions and not enough of the Centurion would need to be organic for them to bleed when injured. That they would use organics in the human-forms and Raiders and not in Centurions doesn't make any sense. As ground fighting forces they'd benefit just as much from ressurection technology as any of the other models.

Of course, I could be wrong :)--if we ever see one taken apart, then we'll know.

The answer is very simple... Starbuck was rescued by the "Ship of Lights". It's a reference to the original Battlestar Galatica. See http://www.firsttvdrama.com/show1/largcast/wargods2.php3 for details.

We have to stop thinking of the F5 as the same sort of Cylon as the other 7. Remember that Moore tells us they are fundamentally different. Obviously, Tigh couldn't have been a humanoid Cylon all that time ago since they hadn't been "invented" yet. My guess is there's some kind of time warping or dimension swapping, or something like that going on here - the whole "this has happened before and it will happen again" concept would perhaps speak to the circular theory of time as opposed to the linear. And clearly, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

OK ... I'll try out a theory. Go easy on me; while I've been watching the series, I haven't participated in this thread or in any previous speculation. I've just been watching to enjoy the show for what it is.

"It's happened before ...". What if a future earth had its own cylon war, where most of humanity and the earth cylons were destroyed. The few human survivors left a ravaged earth to found the colonies in a kind of Adam and Eve scenario. The colony founders decided to let humanity start fresh, and to develop technology on their own, hopefully avoiding the creation of cylons. However, mindful that cylons may be created by their ancestors, the earth settler's designed five cylon models whose purpose would be to save the race should cylons be created by the future colonies. These five were initially dormant, and designed to awake if and when a colony cylon war occurred. Part of their abilities would be to insinuate themselves into human lives, and to take the memories and appearance of the existing humans in the best position to bring peace.

... Just slapped this together, and I'm sure there are holes. But the idea that the five are fundamentally different because they were designed by the earth founders of the colonies in reaction to a prior earth/cylon conflict seems to me to answer a lot of questions.:)

I am confused. So an older Cylon detected that pilot as being a Cylon and didn't attack. But when Sol was being held prisoner, and they tortured him and ripped his eye out, they couldn't tell then?????

Maybe that is when he was replaced. What better way to throw off suspicion. It also makes it easier to understand how he could kill his wife.

The answer is very simple... Starbuck was rescued by the "Ship of Lights". It's a reference to the original Battlestar Galatica. See http://www.firsttvdrama.com/show1/largcast/wargods2.php3 for details.

Yeah - I said to my wife when SB came back last week and everyone was questioning her return, "Don't they know it was the Ships of Light?"

Maybe that is when he was replaced. What better way to throw off suspicion. It also makes it easier to understand how he could kill his wife.

I don't know... He seemed pretty devastated to have to do that. I understood it more from the perspective that he is a man of war, and those things have to happen when you are at war.

OK ... I'll try out a theory. Go easy on me; while I've been watching the series, I haven't participated in this thread or in any previous speculation. I've just been watching to enjoy the show for what it is.

"It's happened before ...". What if a future earth had its own cylon war, where most of humanity and the earth cylons were destroyed. The few human survivors left a ravaged earth to found the colonies in a kind of Adam and Eve scenario. The colony founders decided to let humanity start fresh, and to develop technology on their own, hopefully avoiding the creation of cylons. However, mindful that cylons may be created by their ancestors, the earth settler's designed five cylon models whose purpose would be to save the race should cylons be created by the future colonies. These five were initially dormant, and designed to awake if and when a colony cylon war occurred. Part of their abilities would be to insinuate themselves into human lives, and to take the memories and appearance of the existing humans in the best position to bring peace.

... Just slapped this together, and I'm sure there are holes. But the idea that the five are fundamentally different because they were designed by the earth founders of the colonies in reaction to a prior earth/cylon conflict seems to me to answer a lot of questions.:)

I think we've arrived at pretty much the same conclusions. I didn't articulate the idea of the Final 5 as "guardians" as well as you did but we're definitely on the same track.

I noticed on re-watch that when Baltar finds out the kid has been "miraculously" cured, Head Six is sort of looking on from behind him. He seems to be unaware of her presence. Is this the first time we've seen her when she was not interacting directly with Baltar? Does this mean something? Is it important, or am I reading too much into it?
Interesting observation. Perhaps he was aware of her but was fixed on the boy and didn't acknowledge her.

My wife agrees with your last thought.

Personally I like all the divergent thinking in this group. It reminds me of something I heard while watching the season three episode concerning genocide and listening to R Moore's podcast. Someone's sig line here at AVS sums it up well: "It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it."
-Joseph Joubert

OK ... I'll try out a theory. Go easy on me; while I've been watching the series, I haven't participated in this thread or in any previous speculation. I've just been watching to enjoy the show for what it is.

"It's happened before ...". What if a future earth had its own cylon war, where most of humanity and the earth cylons were destroyed. The few human survivors left a ravaged earth to found the colonies in a kind of Adam and Eve scenario. The colony founders decided to let humanity start fresh, and to develop technology on their own, hopefully avoiding the creation of cylons. However, mindful that cylons may be created by their ancestors, the earth settler's designed five cylon models whose purpose would be to save the race should cylons be created by the future colonies. These five were initially dormant, and designed to awake if and when a colony cylon war occurred. Part of their abilities would be to insinuate themselves into human lives, and to take the memories and appearance of the existing humans in the best position to bring peace.

... Just slapped this together, and I'm sure there are holes. But the idea that the five are fundamentally different because they were designed by the earth founders of the colonies in reaction to a prior earth/cylon conflict seems to me to answer a lot of questions.:)
Yes, there are several holes, including one so big you can drive a truck through. :rolleyes: I don't know if it was intentional or your subconcious was just working overtime to back up the theory. Did you happen to notice that you left out half of the tagline? Y'know the "AND IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN" part??

Now its one thing to have your 'pawns' come up with the 'it has happened before' bit, because they've been there and done that, but how the hell could they be so damn certain that it would 'happen again', to the extent that it would become part of this series' mantra? Mind you, the line isn't 'might happen again' or 'could happen again', or 'may happen again'. Its a definitive 'WILL happen again'. Now how could they possibly know that?

Is this whole series going to boil down to pre-determination and time loops? Because I've got to tell you, most of us are up to our ears suffering through the free will vs. pre-determination and time anomaly issues over in the 'Lost' thread, and I'm not all that anxious to be getting on and off the same 'philosophical horse' at the same time, in my two favorite shows. :(

So don't take this personally, because its not intended that way, but I'm starting to get a lot better appreciation of why Murtagh came up with "I'm getting too old for this $h!t." ;)

______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Yes, there are several holes, including one so big you can drive a truck through. :rolleyes: I don't know if it was intentional or your subconcious was just working overtime to back up the theory. Did you happen to notice that you left out half of the tagline? Y'know the "AND IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN" part??

Now its one thing to have your 'pawns' come up with the 'it has happened before' bit, because they've been there and done that, but how the hell could they be so damn certain that it would 'happen again', to the extent that it would become part of this series' mantra? Mind you, the line isn't 'might happen again' or 'could happen again', or 'may happen again'. Its a definitive 'WILL happen again'. Now how could they possibly know that?

Is this whole series going to boil down to pre-determination and time loops? Because I've got to tell you, most of us are up to our ears suffering through the free will vs. pre-determination and time anomaly issues over in the 'Lost' thread, and I'm not all that anxious to be getting on and off the same 'philosophical horse' at the same time, in my two favorite shows. :(



Considering the show's three plus year run so far, theres very little to require time loops or anything. It could easily be explained by the human nature to destroy oneself. Considering the root of the show is much more about human nature than Sci-fi, it might be a better hypothesis.

Maybe they could simply say that the human race starts from zero builds itself up, only to destroy itself again and again. If it happened 4-5 times you can easily start saying it will happen again... (Besides the tagline is much less ominous without the WILL...)

Galactica has a ton of intrigue and mystery, but nothing like lost where they basically wrote themselves into a corner that required wacky time travelling sci-fi where it doesn't make sense. Lost is a great show, but in a way Battlestar Galactica is less Sci-Fi oriented.

I really pray we're not talking any time loops, time travel, time salad or time ala mode.

Time is what ruined Star Trek. Time is the diseased monkey that bites good science fiction and turns it into crap.

A little time dilation, such as Starbuck suffered, is no big deal. Pretty established theory in fact if you're down with Einstein. But shoveling a bigger time-driven explanation would be obnoxious and lazy and most likely unnecessary.

Except for the fact that Athena, a valued member of their crew, IS a Cylon, everybody knows it, and nobody seems to have any problems with it (at least not anymore). Also, it's not as if they actually TRUST Starbuck. They do have two heavily armed security guards escorting her everywhere she goes.

Athena's earned the trust over time. Resurrected Starbuck hasn't. And no way they would just have two marines escorting her, with her combat training and a history of physical violence even under normal conditions. Security would be much tighter until her true nature was determined. At the very least, she'd be in the equivalent of leg-irons or handcuffs, so she couldn't do EXACTLY WHAT SHE DID at the end of the episode. Basic security precaution. The writing for her scenes was really dumbed down to the point where it was impossible for me to suspend disbelief.

Time is the diseased monkey that bites good science fiction and turns it into crap.

Wow, that's gonna make a great sig line for somebody.

I really pray we're not talking any time loops, time travel, time salad or time ala mode.

Time is what ruined Star Trek. Time is the diseased monkey that bites good science fiction and turns it into crap.

A little time dilation, such as Starbuck suffered, is no big deal. Pretty established theory in fact if you're down with Einstein. But shoveling a bigger time-driven explanation would be obnoxious and lazy and most likely unnecessary.

I don't think we're talking about LITERAL time travel here. Just the cyclical nature of human existence that the shows suggests -- the humans come from small numbers, build up themselves and civilization, become too dependant on technology, get wiped out, and start the whole cycle over again.

Athena's earned the trust over time. Resurrected Starbuck hasn't. And no way they would just have two marines escorting her, with her combat training and a history of physical violence even under normal conditions. Security would be much tighter until her true nature was determined. At the very least, she'd be in the equivalent of leg-irons or handcuffs, so she couldn't do EXACTLY WHAT SHE DID at the end of the episode. Basic security precaution. The writing for her scenes was really dumbed down to the point where it was impossible for me to suspend disbelief.

That's what the "What if it was Zack" conversation between Adama and Lee in the film room was all about. They're debating on whether they can trust her or not, and whether it even matters if she's a Cylon or not.

I don't find their actions toward Starbuck as inconsistent with their patterns of behavior throughout the rest of the series, anyway. It seems to me that they pretty often allow their emotional needs to overrule the bounds of good sense. Otherwise, Starbuck would've died in season 1, Tigh would've been kicked out of the service, Agathon would've been executed as a collaborator, etc. etc. etc.

Interesting observation. Perhaps he was aware of her but was fixed on the boy and didn't acknowledge her.

My wife agrees with your last thought.

Personally I like all the divergent thinking in this group. It reminds me of something I heard while watching the season three episode concerning genocide and listening to R Moore's podcast. Someone's sig line here at AVS sums it up well: "It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it."
-Joseph Joubert

Yes, I do tend to overthink this show a little too often. But I'll be watching a little closer to see if this meant anything. Because, heck, I watch each episode at least three times anyway. :D

Considering the show's three plus year run so far, theres very little to require time loops or anything. It could easily be explained by the human nature to destroy oneself. Considering the root of the show is much more about human nature than Sci-fi, it might be a better hypothesis.

Maybe they could simply say that the human race starts from zero builds itself up, only to destroy itself again and again. If it happened 4-5 times you can easily start saying it will happen again... (Besides the tagline is much less ominous without the WILL...).
Ahh, but there's the rub. Why even introduce the concept, let alone incorporate it as the central theme in the opening of every episode, if it is nothing more than a vague and obvious possibility. History repeating itself is about as hackneyed a cliche as one can run into in the annals of fiction or science fiction, and I think one of the pleasures of BSG, is that the creative team seems to make a concious effort to avoid those kind of conventions.

That's what makes this show so 'fresh'. It intentionally takes the sci-fi genre and turns it on its ear, and I suspect many of us wouldn't even be here talking about this series if that were not the case. My point is, to paraphrase another overused cliche, 'If it is fixed, why break it'? ;)

_________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

In fact, that's become endemic to this thread and the members who post here during the past several months, so don't think its just you. It wasn't always like this, but in more recent times, the BSG thread seems to have become the lastest incarnation of the ancient fable concerning the blind men and the elephant. What little unification is actually ever realized here, seems to quickly unfold and fragment. When you think about it, this is very atypical of Sci-Fi fans. The level of intersection is dramatically limited, which is unusual for this genre. Has anyone else noticed this?

I think you are being a little harsh on us :) BSG is ridiculously complex compared to normal sci-fi and has been off the air for a SIGNIFICANT length of time, memories fade :) In fact is has been what, 5 YEARS running with only three seasons and the mini-series? Given how repetitive and "rules heavy" most sci-fi is, a show like BSG that plays pretty fast and loose can be hard to pin down even with what we initially think is terra firma.

I relish being able to sit down in a few years and blow through the entire BSG saga in a short period of time. Hopefully this final season wraps up everyhting and we can pick up lots of foreshadowing in the early eps.

I'm currently attempting to watch all 10 seasons of Stargate SG-1 during the TV drought. I figure I can do 2 seasons a month so it should be possible. Fortunately I have wife supprt for this :) Anyway, I don't think a conventional sci-fi show like SG-1 sparks the debate and questioning that BSG does. The show is fun, but hardly more than brain candy.

Ahh, but there's the rub. Why even introduce the concept, let alone incorporate it as the central theme in the opening of every episode, if it is nothing more than a vague and obvious possibility. History repeating itself is about as hackneyed a cliche as one can run into in the annals of fiction or science fiction, and I think one of the pleasures of BSG, is that the creative team seems to make a concious effort to avoid those kind of conventions.

That's what makes this show so 'fresh'. It intentionally takes the sci-fi genre and turns it on its ear, and I suspect many of us wouldn't even be here talking about this series if that were not the case. My point is, to paraphrase another overused cliche, 'If it is fixed, why break it'? ;)



I don't think this time-loop concept (if indeed that's what is meant by "all this has happened before and will happen again") is going to play out like anyone here has yet envisioned. It's only cliché if it's something we've seen a zillion times before. I don't believe it will unspool that way based on how they've shaken the show up and rebooted it several times now, and always left us with our jaws on the floor wanting more, more, Moore. With this show, it's always been about the journey; I don't see that changing over these last 19 episodes.

I really pray we're not talking any time loops, time travel, time salad or time ala mode.

Time is what ruined Star Trek. Time is the diseased monkey that bites good science fiction and turns it into crap.



capt. kathryn janeway (st:voyager) had a great line:

"Time travel. From my first day on the job as captain I promised myself I'd never let myself get caught up in one of these God-forsaken paradoxes. The future's the past, the past is the future. It all gives me a headache."

I'm currently attempting to watch all 10 seasons of Stargate SG-1 during the TV drought. I figure I can do 2 seasons a month so it should be possible. Fortunately I have wife supprt for this :) Anyway, I don't think a conventional sci-fi show like SG-1 sparks the debate and questioning that BSG does. The show is fun, but hardly more than brain candy.

It's funny, I'm doing the same thing right now. I too have wife support since she bought the DVD set for me. I'm currently on season 7. Indeed!

I think you are being a little harsh on us :) BSG is ridiculously complex compared to normal sci-fi and has been off the air for a SIGNIFICANT length of time, memories fade :) In fact is has been what, 5 YEARS running with only three seasons and the mini-series? Given how repetitive and "rules heavy" most sci-fi is, a show like BSG that plays pretty fast and loose can be hard to pin down even with what we initially think is terra firma.
Harsh..MOI?? ;) I guess that's a matter of interpretation. You seem to suggest that i'm being critical of our collective reasoning abilities as being inadequate in some respect. Actually, that's not the case at all. To the contrary, I believe that most of the 'problem' (if you want to call it that, though I'm not sure I would) is attributable to the ingenuity of RDM and the creative team's ability to spin so many different 'plates' in so many different directions, that is nigh impossible for us to formulate a cohesive unifying theory that we can build upon. And don't get me wrong, I have a great admiration for his ability to accomplish that feat, but it certainly creates additional confusion for those of us who wish to integrate/reconcile the various issues. Think of this mind frak as a jigsaw puzzle. Getting the pieces in place around the perimeter is a relatively simple task. But as we get closer to the center, the path often actually appears to become more obscure.
I relish being able to sit down in a few years and blow through the entire BSG saga in a short period of time. Hopefully this final season wraps up everything and we can pick up lots of foreshadowing in the early eps.
Same here, unless it turns out that RDM in pursuit of his own cleverness, ends up going through so many contortions, that this thread unravels into little more than eye-roll emotes.

________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Wow, that's gonna make a great sig line for somebody.

It's there for the taking if someone wants it.

I don't think we're talking about LITERAL time travel here. Just the cyclical nature of human existence that the shows suggests -- the humans come from small numbers, build up themselves and civilization, become too dependant on technology, get wiped out, and start the whole cycle over again.

I don't know. It's hard to explain what is up with Final Five if you don't include either a time paradox or a splice onto the characters' lives. I guess you could push the human experiments back to the first war and call Tigh the first humanoid Cylon put into play.

I get the cycle of time. I'm just not sold that it can be written in a relevant manner into a plot conclusion.

capt. kathryn janeway (st:voyager) had a great line:

"Time travel. From my first day on the job as captain I promised myself I'd never let myself get caught up in one of these God-forsaken paradoxes. The future's the past, the past is the future. It all gives me a headache."

It's bad when the show itself says it is bad.

- - -

I guess we can all look on the bright side. RDM is about to finish his magnum opus. He's under a lot of pressure to make sure that a show whose bread and butter is ending episodes on a perfect cliffhanger ends well.

We should just all pray to the One True God that whatever ending the show gets -- even if it is Adama eating at a restaurant and the shot going black -- does not involve any time travel or paradox.

I don't think this time-loop concept (if indeed that's what is meant by "all this has happened before and will happen again") is going to play out like anyone here has yet envisioned. It's only cliché if it's something we've seen a zillion times before.
I'm using 'time loop' as a convenience to avoid the 'history repeats itself' cliche, although in the 'real' world, I think that is often the case. My concern is the distinct possibility that this groundswell of brilliant ideas could ultimately capitulate into a Tower of Babel. Don't forget, the road to Hell is often paved with great intentions.

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I'm using 'time loop' as a convenience to avoid the 'history repeats itself' cliche, although in the 'real' world, I think that is often the case. My concern is the distinct possibility that this groundswell of brilliant ideas could ultimately capitulate into a Tower of Babel. Don't forget, the road to Hell is often paved with great intentions.


Well, there's no question that no matter what happens, there will be a group that hates it and won't mind saying so, loudly. It's just too big a story. Same thing will happen with LOST only multiplied by 6 or so. For me, I'm just ready to be taken on the journey and wherever it leads, I'm likely to be happy and content, secure in the knowledge that's I've seen something of greatness unfold over a 6 or 7 year span that only a precious few others got to see because they preferred to vege-out on cop procedurals and reality fluff. I expect my primary feeling will be one of enduring gratitude that this thing ever got made in the first place.

For me, I'm just ready to be taken on the journey and wherever it leads, I'm likely to be happy and content, secure in the knowledge that's I've seen something of greatness unfold over a 6 or 7 year span that only a precious few others got to see because they preferred to vege-out on cop procedurals and reality fluff. I expect my primary feeling will be one of enduring gratitude that this thing ever got made in the first place.

So say we all. You put it very well.

I started watching about a year and a half ago. Just on a whim because the word on this series was so strong. We watched the miniseries and were hooked. I know many have similar stories. Rewatching has begun with Moore's Podcasts and it's nice to just watch the visuals and hear the ideas and backstories.

We are witnessing something very unique, I think. And the thoughts that come to my mind as I watch the episodes are the great reward for participating in this extremely well done show.
For me talking about it is fun, but only in retrospect. I was one of those who bought completely into the movie The Sixth Sense and I wouldn't want to have examined it so closely that the finale would have merely been a confirmation of my suspicions. So I tend to stay away from threads such as this during the time I'm viewing. I would rather be taken a bit unaware when events unfold.

The writing by many in this thread is really good - fun to read. I suspect I will be peeking less at this thread until season 4 is over. (Or will it be 4.0 and 4.5?)

As far as time loops being used ("Time is the diseased monkey that bites good science fiction and turns it into crap." - ;) ), I hope not. But then there have been MANY occurrences during this show's run that I didn't think would pan out only to find them later well vindicated.

It is a very well done show with a strong sense of purpose. I think we're fortunate.

Rumor has it that the Sci-Fi HD live feed is up on Dishnet as of yesterday on Echostar 8 at 110w on channel 9432.
It's not available to the general public quite yet, but there are reports from ppl with FTA and DVB cards that the picture quality is quite good.

Shouldn't be long before the rest of us with Dishnet finally get to see some Sci-Fi HD goodness! :D:D:D

For me, I'm just ready to be taken on the journey and wherever it leads, I'm likely to be happy and content, secure in the knowledge that's I've seen something of greatness unfold over a 6 or 7 year span that only a precious few others got to see because they preferred to vege-out on cop procedurals and reality fluff. I expect my primary feeling will be one of enduring gratitude that this thing ever got made in the first place.
Don't misunderstand, I share the identical sentiments you've expressed, particulalry with regard to BSG, and I only wish that there really were 6 or 7 seasons to that series. It has been a thought provoking journey, both emotionally and intellectually, and maybe I approached the BSG issues with too blunt an instrument out of frustration. Lost is kind of a different story however. As much as I love Lost (and you know I do),it could have played itself as an epic adventure/suspense drama and still accomplished the goal of providing great entertainment. Unfortunately, for whatever mindset was behind it, the Lost creatiive team determined to focus on, or 'spice up' the wealth of material that was available to begin with, by introducing puzzles and arcane mysteries for the audience to try to dissect and solve. Now conceptually, there's nothing really terribly wrong with that approach, as long as you ultimately deliver the goods. And I'm sorry to say that as of this point, Lost has not fully succeeded in that regard. To the contrary, after serving up promises of thoughtful mysteries and the exploration of the unknown, Lost, perhaps in an unwitting sense of self-parody, has become 'The Man Behind the Curtain', and I sincerely hope they can set themselves aright again during the remaining seasons. If I had to compare the two, I'd say that while Lost is great fun (and it is), BSG will always be remembered as something closer to great 'art'.

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Don't forget, the road to Hell is often paved with great intentions.

I've been on the DC Beltway. It's just paved with asphalt.

Don't misunderstand, I share the identical sentiments you've expressed, particulalry with regard to BSG, and I only wish that there really were 6 or 7 seasons to that series. It has been a thought provoking journey, both emotionally and intellectually, and maybe I approached the BSG issues with too blunt an instrument out of frustration. Lost is kind of a different story however. As much as I love Lost (and you know I do),it could have played itself as an epic adventure/suspense drama and still accomplished the goal of providing great entertainment. Unfortunately, for whatever mindset was behind it, the Lost creatiive team determined to focus on, or 'spice up' the wealth of material that was available to begin with, by introducing puzzles and arcane mysteries for the audience to try to dissect and solve. Now conceptually, there's nothing really terribly wrong with that approach, as long as you ultimately deliver the goods. And I'm sorry to say that as of this point, Lost has not fully succeeded in that regard. To the contrary, after serving up promises of thoughtful mysteries and the exploration of the unknown, Lost, perhaps in an unwitting sense of self-parody, has become 'The Man Behind the Curtain', and I sincerely hope they can set themselves aright again during the remaining seasons. If I had to compare the two, I'd say that while Lost is great fun (and it is), BSG will always be remembered as something closer to great 'art'.


While I don't really disagree with anything you say there except maybe the self-parody thing, I kind of like the approach they took with LOST. But I do think the puzzles and mysteries are organic to the plotline (which has probably gotten more complex over time), not just thrown in there to amuse the fan-atics. That's just a bonus. ;)

i like time episodes....even the last episode of star trek: the next generation had time involved and even critics say it was one of the best episodes of the series ever.

i like time episodes....even the last episode of star trek: the next generation had time involved and even critics say it was one of the best episodes of the series ever.

In the Star Treks, the ratio of good to bad time travel stories was about 1 in 10. But there were a few good ones: "All Good Things" which you mentioned (written by BSG's Ron Moore), as well as "Yesterday's Enterprise" from TNG; and of course the Harlen Ellison penned "City on the Edge of Forever", one of the best eps of the original series. 'Voyager' and 'Enterprise' just made a hash of it whenever they tried.

...and of course the Harlen Ellison penned "City on the Edge of Forever", one of the best eps of the original series. '

mmmm joan collins.

mmmm joan collins.

Now or 40 years ago?

Just asking.

In the Star Treks, the ratio of good to bad time travel stories was about 1 in 10. But there were a few good ones: "All Good Things" which you mentioned (written by BSG's Ron Moore), as well as "Yesterday's Enterprise" from TNG; and of course the Harlen Ellison penned "City on the Edge of Forever", one of the best eps of the original series. 'Voyager' and 'Enterprise' just made a hash of it whenever they tried.Don't forget the movie Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. That was an amusing outing.

I've been on the DC Beltway. It's just paved with asphalt.

That's just what they want you to think. If you'd been around and paying attention during 1972-92, you'd have realized that when the original Beltway was being widened, it was actually replaced by a sleeper Beltway.

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

While I don't really disagree with anything you say there except maybe the self-parody thing, I kind of like the approach they took with LOST. But I do think the puzzles and mysteries are organic to the plotline (which has probably gotten more complex over time), not just thrown in there to amuse the fan-atics. That's just a bonus. ;)Organic?? Is it microbiotic, too? :) C'mon now, Arch, If they plan on doing a story involving psuedo-supernatural elements that are supposed to be accepted at face value, its counter-intuitive to hobble the suspension of disbelief through the frequent references to smoke and mirrors.

Next you'll have them pulling rabbits out of thin air, instead of a hat. :rolleyes: :eek:

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Next you'll have them pulling rabbits out of thin air, instead of a hat. :rolleyes: :eek:



If so, I predict those rabbits will have numbers on them. ;)

Don't forget the movie Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. That was an amusing outing.

"They are not the hell your whales"

"Ah. The Giants."

Don't forget the movie Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. That was an amusing outing.

Nuclear wessels.

The best time travel story done on television was in Bablyon 5, "Bablylon Squared," and "War Without End," parts 1 and 2. Nothing else really comes close in either conception or execution.

Back to BSG, I really am puzzled about how they will explain Starbuck's return, and what she truly is. Who are "they" whom she said were waiting for her just before her Viper exploded? I need answers, dammit!

Finally got around to this. I really enjoyed it....but depressed knowing this is the last season.

Unfortunately I finally convinced my wife to sit down and watch it with me, but the 50 uses of the word "frak" or "frakking" or "frakker" during the first 5 minutes had her laughing so hard she quickly gave up on the show, probably forever. I have to admit I hate that too, as it sounds completely ridiculous and no matter how much the show has sucked me in, as soon as they say "frak" I immediately get sucked back out to reality.

Because "Get in your frakking ship" sounds better than "get in your damn ship"...sure it does.:rolleyes: Wouldn't be so bad if it was only a couple times an episode instead of a dozen or more. Just my opinion.

That's just what they want you to think. If you'd been around and paying attention during 1972-92, you'd have realized that when the original Beltway was being widened, it was actually replaced by a sleeper Beltway.

So now the Cylons AND the Stonecutters have their own secret transportation systems? I feel so left out.

Unfortunately I finally convinced my wife to sit down and watch it with me, but the 50 uses of the word "frak" or "frakking" or "frakker" during the first 5 minutes had her laughing so hard she quickly gave up on the show, probably forever. I have to admit I hate that too, as it sounds completely ridiculous and no matter how much the show has sucked me in, as soon as they say "frak" I immediately get sucked back out to reality.

No gorram frellin way!!!

The faux swear words are almost a critical part of the artistic score in sci-fi. Keep in mind, part of the sub-culture of geekdom is the use of these dumb words.

Every sci-fi series worth its salt has a few frackin words that make the fans nod and ask the outsiders, "Dong ma?"

Sci-fi without fake swear words would be like listening to a Verde opera in American English. It would cease to be itself.

Because "Get in your frakking ship" sounds better than "get in your damn ship"...sure it does.:rolleyes: Wouldn't be so bad if it was only a couple times an episode instead of a dozen or more. Just my opinion."Frak" is an obvious stand-in for that other F-word, which they can't use on television and which any group of close-knit American military people would use with equal frequency. It makes them seem that much more real to me, and increases my immersion. If they took it out or diminished the frequency it would seem like standard white-washed American primetime TV.

Besides, they also sometimes say "Gods damn it!", and "Gods damned such-and-such!" :D

And please don't forget the original F-bomb from the original version...

"Felgercarb" (3 syllables)

which quickly fell out of favor because of how long it took to say it! "Frak" is *so* much easier.

Regarding "frak" - I admit it took me a couple episodes to get used to it. I kind of rolled my eyes originally, just like I did with "gorram". But now I love it, and I use it occasionally. In fact, I don't even notice it in the show any more, just like I rarely notice that other word in movies.

I've pretty much replaced the traditional, time-honored "f**k" with Frak! as my go-to expletive when an expletive is needed. Wonderful idea; I can cuss up a storm and nobody gets offended. BSG's enduring gift to the masses.

OTOH, Katee says she never uses frak (or is it frack?) in her real life. Guess she thinks, under the circumstances, it might be a bit.... uh.... tacky.

Yeah, I agree with you on the "frak" word as it doesn't bother me (that much, although I do feel it's way overused in BSG). The issue was/is that my wife was laughing so hard at it, it turned off a potential viewer. Just my opinion that it kindof diminishes the seriousness of the show to your casual viewer and makes it more...uhm....laughable isn't the right word, but you know what I mean.

I sorta prefer the Firefly chinese phrases versus the endless "frak", but I'm pretty sure that damn near every sci-fi convention for the next 30 years is gonna start with some joke based on "frak" :)

Interesting how it rolls off the tounge better than its sibling, "frell". "Gorram" was used much better, just as an adjective, not a verb, noun, or name :)

I sorta prefer the Firefly chinese phrases versus the endless "frak", but I'm pretty sure that damn near every sci-fi convention for the next 30 years is gonna start with some joke based on "frak" :)

In fairness, Firefly was really trying to push the audience. If you could tolerate made up swear words, they had some Chinese to put you off. If you liked sci-fi, they had some western to put you off. If you liked action, they had way too much character development to put you off.

Firefly was probably the most challenging sci-fi show to watch, just because they were desperately trying to lose the audience.

In fact, I still feel that the decision to go more sci-fi with the film benefited the story tremendously. Of course, as shown by people who have followed the cast to every single project they've done (from killer robots shows to pie making flicks), the cast is ultimately what made Firefly.

But, it still was a huge loss to TV that Firefly couldn't get past its own dedication to weirdness long enough to capture the audience.

And that's the line you tread. BSG's achievement, IMO, is that it has made a more realistic sci-fi show, a case where you're actually losing room to be sci-fi-ish, without losing the audience.

Best fake swear-words IMO: Johnny Dangerously

I've pretty much replaced the traditional, time-honored "f**k" with Frak! as my go-to expletive when an expletive is needed. Wonderful idea; I can cuss up a storm and nobody gets offended. BSG's enduring gift to the masses.
While I am relectant to admit liftng some stupid sanitzed version of a perfectly good curse word, 'Frak' has become an integral part of my lexicon. And to my surprise, other people who have no familiarity with BSG don't even bat an eye. To the contrary, many have actually reacted as if it was genteel. Go figure.

Now if Ron and the team can come up with equally acceptable replacements for, oh say, 'ditch', 'runt' or pass-coal, I will never have to feel constrained again. :D

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

While I am relectant to admit liftng some stupid sanitzed version of a perfectly good curse word, 'Frak' has become an integral part of my lexicon. And to my surprise, other people who have no familiarity with BSG don't even bat an eye. To the contrary, many have actually reacted as if it was genteel. Go figure.


Same here. I use it all the time and nobody ever bats an eye or even lifts an eyebrow. Maybe they're all Battlestar fans (part of the millions that must be watching that somehow never get counted).

Farscape had quite a vocabulary, it was the first show I recall, I think one of their big words was frell, what the frell, how the frell, etc... it was multipurpose I think, it could be used for the F word, the H word, etc... I miss Farscape.

Best fake swear-words IMO: Johnny Dangerously

"Fargin icehole!"

I use Frak in my everyday life, thanks BSG!

Easy to tell when it is the middle of the week. :)

Back to BSG, I really am puzzled about how they will explain Starbuck's return, and what she truly is. Who are "they" whom she said were waiting for her just before her Viper exploded? I need answers, dammit!

Yes, The only plot devices that is more overused bu sci-fi/fantasy shows than the "time travel" plots are the no one is really dead plots. Nearly every character on Smallville and Alias has died or been presumed dead at least once.

If you're a character in a TV show and you die, do me a favor and stay dead! Don't crash land on an island and be rescued later. Don't have some character suddenly have magic life-giving powers to bring you back to life. Don't build a clone of yourself and blow it up -- insurance companies are onto that trick. If you find a clone of yourself walking around, don't kill it -- everyone will think you're the clone now. If 30,000 bullets splatter your guts all over a panel truck and you die in the hospital, don't hide out in Nepal (no Tibet, no Nepal, OK either one) after your funeral. If you wake up in Hong Kong not remembering the past two years, don't call into work -- they'll make you go back to work the next day. If you're shot and declared dead by doctors, don't walk around the lake shirtless with a bandaid on your chest the next day -- people will think you're Superman or something.

Sci-fi without fake swear words would be like listening to a Verde opera in American English. It would cease to be itself.

I grok that.

If you liked sci-fi, they had some western to put you off.

Mission accomplished!

Could the twelve colonies of kobol correspond with the 12 cylon models? As in, each cylon model comes from (or represents) one of the colonies in question. In which case, to find who the final cylon is we need to find which colony is missing a cylon? I could be way off here, just thought I'd throw this out tho...

So did anybody order their free pizza?

In fairness, Firefly was really trying to push the audience. If you could tolerate made up swear words, they had some Chinese to put you off. If you liked sci-fi, they had some western to put you off. If you liked action, they had way too much character development to put you off.

Firefly was probably the most challenging sci-fi show to watch, just because they were desperately trying to lose the audience.

In fact, I still feel that the decision to go more sci-fi with the film benefited the story tremendously. Of course, as shown by people who have followed the cast to every single project they've done (from killer robots shows to pie making flicks), the cast is ultimately what made Firefly.

But, it still was a huge loss to TV that Firefly couldn't get past its own dedication to weirdness long enough to capture the audience.

And that's the line you tread. BSG's achievement, IMO, is that it has made a more realistic sci-fi show, a case where you're actually losing room to be sci-fi-ish, without losing the audience.

Oh come on, everyone knows that Firefly died because no one ever watched it in the first place (poorly marketed, unannounced shifting time slots), not because it couldn't hold an audience.

In fact, although this is pure speculation and there's no way to ever prove it, I would guess that Firefly probably has one of the highest attach rates of any show I can think of. I mean, it is sooooooo soooooooo sooooooo rare to find people that give Firefly a chance, and end up not liking to it. Everyone that I've introduced to the show in real life has become a huge fan, and even online whenever there is a deal thread for the DVD set or something there are maybe 1 out of 1000 posters saying they didn't like it, whereas with any other show there are countless people dismissing it.

Firefly was behind from the start because it was a Sci-fi show on network television not named Star Trek and with a high production cost. That's a recipe for disaster from the get-go, but mix in how poorly it was handled by Fox and it never had a chance, and none of that had to do with too many people giving it a chance and deciding "no thanks".

As to the exact point at hand, words like "gorram" were close enough to the real thing that most people probably didn't even catch that they were different at first. Anyone that's not a sci-fi geek immediately rolls their eyes when they hear the word "frak". Mix that with the poorly named show (Battlestar Galactica just sounds like cheesy Kevin Sorbo sci-fi) and this is easily the one show that I've had the most difficult time getting non sci-fi geeks into, even though at its core I'm sure its better than anything else they're watching.

Hey Tricia Helfer will be on Friday on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno... refresh my memory, but isn't this the first Galactica cast member invited there?

I mean, it is sooooooo soooooooo sooooooo rare to find people that give Firefly a chance, and end up not liking to it. Everyone that I've introduced to the show in real life has become a huge fan, and even online whenever there is a deal thread for the DVD set or something there are maybe 1 out of 1000 posters saying they didn't like it, whereas with any other show there are countless people dismissing it.

Being bounced all over the schedule did not help its cause.

But, ever TV show has a main pitch that has to attract your eyeballs in the first place. Firefly's main pitch was a real a challenge to most viewers. And this is minding you that historically sci-fi is a pretty tough pitch as it is.

I admit Firefly is sticky once you get people to watch it. But, that is a tough pitch to make in 30 second spots, because the real appeal of Firefly is no where in the treatment for the show. The appeal of Firefly was in the actors themselves.

Also, it's still just a fact that audiences have an easier time process a straight-up hero. People will take a Bill Adama over a Mal Reynolds every day, because people don't quite understand how the good guy can be at once a crook, a bit of a drunk and a sort of lovable big brother to a crew rejects and mercenaries.

I have to confess, I watched a few minutes of the pilot when it aired (The Train Job was the pilot, unfortunately for the show) and I didn't get it and tuned out.

Firefly didn't get a fair shake. Few shows ever do. But, FTR, Firefly was a weird ass show and it is hard to attract an audience with a show that is just plain weird.

I've been a staunch Sci-Fi fan for 41 years, ever since reading Heinlein's Have Space Suit, Will Travel as a 9 year-old. I didn't hear about Firefly until after it launched and I occasionally tuned in to the odd episode and watched 10 minutes and it never grabbed me. It wasn't until I watched the Serenity movie at a friend's house that I learned to love it. (I was crazy about that movie and have never really understood why--it was on Showtime HD one weekend soon after I first viewed it on DVD and I watched it 3 times, something very rare for me). After that, I TiVo'd all 14 episodes airing back-to-back on Sci Fi and watched them in the order that Whedon intended them to be viewed in, which is somewhat different from the order in which they were originally aired. A two-part episode entitled "Serenity" was intended to be the pilot, but some network nimrods decided to change it up, making "The Train Job" the pilot. The order the producers intended them to be seen in was: (1) "Serenity", (2) "The Train Job", (3) "Bushwacked", (4) "Shindig", (5) "Safe", (6) "Our Mrs Reynolds", (7) "Jaynestown", (8) "Out Of Gas", (9) "Ariel", (10) "War Stories", (11) "Trash", (12) "The Message", (13) "Heart of Gold" and (14) "Objects In Space"; the order in which they aired was (2), (3), (6), (7), (8), (4), (5), (9), (10), (14) and (1), after which the series was cancelled. (11), (12) and (13) never aired during the original run and "Serenity", the intended pilot, ended up as the last episode in the network run instead of the first :rolleyes:. Now I'm a huge fan of the series as well.

It was definitely a worthy projected screwed over by profoundly poor network marketing and meddling.

Being bounced all over the schedule did not help its cause.
Firefly was never "bounced all over the schedule". Every single Firefly episode aired by Fox was on a Friday evening from when it premiered in September 2002 to when it was canceled in December 2002. Anyone who watched the show knew when it was on.

I wish Firefly fans would stop spreading this lie. If Fox is guilty of anything it was by showing total disinterest in the show by keeping it in its original timeslot while its ratings steadily dropped.

I have to confess, I watched a few minutes of the pilot when it aired (The Train Job was the pilot, unfortunately for the show) and I didn't get it and tuned out.

A two-part episode entitled "Serenity" was intended to be the pilot, but some network nimrods decided to change it up, making "The Train Job" the pilot.

You guys aren't really using the word 'Pilot' correctly. A pilot does not mean the first episode aired. You can't really call 'The Train Job' the pilot, simply because it aired first. A 'Pilot' is the single episode originally produced to sell the idea to the network, regardless of if/when the episode actually airs. In some cases, the pilot never airs in its original form, because of story or cast changes made after the network picks up the show. Star Trek and Heroes are examples of that. As is Firefly, because even the original 'Serenity' pilot was reworked before airing, to add more action and replace a cast member (Rebecca Gayheart).

After that, I TiVo'd all 14 episodes airing back-to-back on Sci Fi and watched them order that Whedon intended them to be viewed in, which is somewhat different from the order in which they were originally aired ("Serenity" parts 1 and 2 were intended to be the pilot, but some network nimrods decided to change it up, ordering the writing of "The Train Job" as a new pilot--apparently the DVD box set present the shows in the originally intended order).
The problem with the original pilot is that the network generally liked it but felt the production values were too low and wasn't comfortable with the series premiering with it. The special effects were cheesy, the sets didn't appear to be complete enough to be convincing, the acting was inconsistent, and there wasn't enough action. Nevertheless they liked the show and picked it up.

Unfortunately Fox didn't want to spend the money to reshoot the pilot so they made them quickly add a terrible voice-over intro explaining the premise of the series to "Train Job" which Fox thought would make a great premiere episode. The intro was just terrible. Some dope cowboy mumbling about finding "a new solar system" with "hundreds of planets" that were terraformed. It didn't make a damn bit of scientific sense and I immediately knew this was going to be more of a fantasy show than a sci-fi show.

Of course I don't quite buy that they made twelve planets habitable in one solar system in BSG, but at least it's not "hundreds". :)

Of course I don't quite buy that they made twelve planets habitable in one solar system in BSG, but at least it's not "hundreds". :)

I didn't realize the 12 colonies were supposed to be in a single solar system, until I read this and followed up with a Google search. How odd. Given that the rules of the BSG universe include hyperspace travel and terraforming, why wouldn't they have colonies spread out considerably further?

That's a good question. Perhaps if you're lucky enough to live in a solar system with twelve habitable planets, who would bother to leave? I guess the thirteenth colony did.

I didn't realize the 12 colonies were supposed to be in a single solar system, until I read this and followed up with a Google search. How odd. Given that the rules of the BSG universe include hyperspace travel and terraforming, why wouldn't they have colonies spread out considerably further?

I have trouble reconciling this too.

Maybe their religion/mythology prevents them from spreading out? Or maybe fear of encroaching on the Cylons territory? We also don't know how long they've actually had FTL capability. Maybe they didn't have it long enough to get the chance to spread out, before the Cylons came and wiped out the system.

You guys aren't really using the word 'Pilot' correctly. A pilot does not mean the first episode aired. You can't really call 'The Train Job' the pilot, simply because it aired first. A 'Pilot' is the single episode originally produced to sell the idea to the network, regardless of if/when the episode actually airs. In some cases, the pilot never airs in its original form, because of story or cast changes made after the network picks up the show. Star Trek and Heroes are examples of that. As is Firefly, because even the original 'Serenity' pilot was reworked before airing, to add more action and replace a cast member (Rebecca Gayheart).Huh. I just watched the "Serenity" episode on UHD this past weekend and the effects seemed pretty decent, but you say the episode was reworked. What part did Gayheart originally play? Was she replaced by another actor or was her character removed from the story?

I'm sure that you're correct about my misuse of the term "pilot", but at least Star Trek managed to make clever re-use of the original pilot, rewriting it as the two-parter "The Managerie" (one of my favorite episodes of the whole series). "Serenity", while decent, seems like a curious flashback to have been the 14th episode to air.

What part did Gayheart originally play? Was she replaced by another actor or was her character removed from the story?

She was supposed to play Inara.

Not that Ms. Gayheart is dog meat or anything but I think they made a good choice with the re-casting. :)

What part did Gayheart originally play? Was she replaced by another actor or was her character removed from the story?

She played Inara, the Companion.

From Wikipedia:
"Also, at the time they were shooting this, Rebecca Gayheart was playing the role of Inara Serra, but Whedon knew that it was not going to work out and so shot scenes with her interacting with the crew in singles, so that the only part that would have to be reshot would be the shots of Inara."

Hey Tricia Helve will be on Friday on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno... refresh my memory, but isn't this the first Galactic cast member invited there?

Don't know the answer to that question, however earlier this week there was news that Fox Broadcasting signed Tricia Helfer for a yet-to-be determined series.

Only posting this here because of the rabid-fan sentiment, but apparently, Firefly is about to re-emerge again in HD, on Blu-Ray.

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Firefly-Blu-ray-Release/9350

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I'll be watching BSG very closely tonight to gather more incriminating evidence...

http://cmpalmer.blogspot.com/2008/03/john-mccain-is-he-cylon.html

I for one welcome our cybernetic overlords.

Speaking about Firefly's demise, and even Battlestar Galactica's rating's slide (compared to it's highest point in Season 1), the fact is there is a relatively small number of people who will watch SciFi programming on a regular basis, especially a serialized show like BSG. These shows are not going to compete with mainstream programming. They may occasionally draw a lot a viewers for a brief time, due to a buzz, but the majority of those viewers will walk away. SciFi tends to be expensive to make, so with a range of viewers who number perhaps 1.5 million to a high of around 4 million, there is pretty limited upside to anyone making high quality 'Space Operas'.

That's pretty much the conclusion I've come to. Forget bad scheduling or network indifference. Being a fan of any SciFi mean getting used to disappointment.

New episode in less than 10 hours!! Yay!

Does anyone here actually watch the streaming at SciFi.com. Don't spoil, please, if you do. Just wondering...

Speaking about Firefly's demise, and even Battlestar Galactica's rating's slide (compared to it's highest point in Season 1), the fact is there is a relatively small number of people who will watch SciFi programming on a regular basis, especially a serialized show like BSG. These shows are not going to compete with mainstream programming. They may occasionally draw a lot a viewers for a brief time, due to a buzz, but the majority of those viewers will walk away. SciFi tends to be expensive to make, so with a range of viewers who number perhaps 1.5 million to a high of around 4 million, there is pretty limited upside to anyone making high quality 'Space Operas'.

That's pretty much the conclusion I've come to. Forget bad scheduling or network indifference. Being a fan of any SciFi mean getting used to disappointment.
I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree with certain aspects of it. How do you reconcile your position with the fact that Lost in Space came in 32d, 33d & 35th place in the ratings during its 3 season run? Seems to me that it suggests the viewers are not exactly walking away from the Sci-fi genre per se.

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree with certain aspects of it. How do you reconcile your position with the fact that Lost in Space came in 32d, 33d & 35th place in the ratings during its 3 season run? Seems to me that it suggests the viewers are not exactly walking away from the Sci-fi genre per se.


Lost in Space was very different from Battlestar Galactica. Lost in Space was pretty much totally episodic where Battlestar is totally serialized. You fall off the bandwagon of an episodic show you can hop right on again, who cares? a serialized show however, in my case I tend to say.. oh well, and wait for the DVD release.

Plus Lost in Space was very much a space family robinson show, there were no real sci-fi crutches, it was a western for kids that happened to be in space.

I didn't mean to say that SciFi was in decline, just that it's a small but steady number of people who enjoy it. Occasionally a SciFi show will attract a non-SciFi audience, but usually those people walk away after a little while. In other words, IMHO, a well managed and excellent SciFi show is not going to 'blossom' like a mainstream show and start pulling consistent mainstream numbers, like 8-12 million viewers. So that leaves shows like Firefly, BSG walking a thin line between expenses and limitied audience size.

Firefly pulled 3-4 million viewers on a big network, which is impressive for SciFi, but bad by Network standards. If Firefly had been on the SciFi channel, 4 million viewers would be a homerun, but then again SciFi channel would have a tough time coughing up the money for a show as expensive as Firefly.

SciFi shows will always be around, and there will be hits within the genre (Stargate SG-1, Star Treks etc) but we'll always be a niche market to the big Networks. Let's face it, it's a far better bet for them financially to just crank out another '5 wacky friends who live together/work together', or crime drama, or generic game show then it is for them to make a Space Opera.

SciFi shows will always be around, and there will be hits within the genre (Stargate SG-1, Star Treks etc) but we'll always be a niche market to the big Networks. Let's face it, it's a far better bet for them financially to just crank out another '5 wacky friends who live together/work together', or crime drama, or generic game show then it is for them to make a Space Opera.



Can't argue with anything you said in that post. But I have to believe that some day there will come along a sci-fi show that will break the big network jinx. CSI-Mars, perhaps? ;)

Can't argue with anything you said in that post. But I have to believe that some day there will come along a sci-fi show that will break the big network jinx. CSI-Mars, perhaps? ;)

Probably Mars Idol.

I see Deal or No Deal (worst game show ever) is having a Star Wars night. Does that count?

New episode in less than 10 hours!! Yay!

Does anyone here actually watch the streaming at SciFi.com. Don't spoil, please, if you do. Just wondering...

I watched the first 15 mins of it today. I couldn't help myself :(

I needed to see how the show started this week after last weeks ending. And it did not disappoint :)

I'm hoping 'Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles' can hang in for a season or two at least.

Lost in Space was very different from Battlestar Galactica. Lost in Space was pretty much totally episodic where Battlestar is totally serialized. You fall off the bandwagon of an episodic show you can hop right on again, who cares?
You do realize that's more than just a bit of an overstatement, don't you? In fact, BSG was not 'totally serialized', or there never would have been
the plethora of stand alone/'filler' eps during the past two seasons. The attempt to make it more 'episodic' in order to increase viewership was an acknowledged failure, and while I believe that the nature of BSG may have strained the patience of the average idiot viewer, making it 'episodic' did little to improve its numbers, and probably alienated a fair number of its existing viewers.

Conversely, Lost in Space (and believe me, I feel no great need to champion that show, other than to refute the notion that anything Sci-fi related is doomed to extinction) actually had some serialized qualities, including each show ending in a cliffhanger which would lead in to the next show, other characters who would appear more than once during the series, and like BSG, the continuing search to find a way 'home', whatever that might be.

Plus Lost in Space was very much a space family robinson show, there were no real sci-fi crutches, it was a western for kids that happened to be in space.
A 'Western' for kiddies? Again, a bit of an exaggeration. If you're pulling a spot in the prime-time ratings located between 32-35, your audience is probably not limited to the kiddies.

Look, I don't disagree that sci-fi has often occupied the role of the red-haired stepchild in the world of prime time ratings, but I'm not sure it is entirely the result of the reasons that some have suggested.

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind