Did anyone see the Star Trek TNG refference i n the BSG episode last night?

The Compartment Door that the Galactica 4 cylons keep meeting in is labeled 1701D.

:D

Well Calley's baby would be another hybrid baby and Torey's programming went off to save the baby at all costs since they think they lost they other one.

What "they" would still think the other baby was lost? Initially everyone (cylon and human) thought the baby died, while Roslyn had it hidden.

Later the cylons found out the baby had not died, and took it back on New Caprica, but the humans thought it had died... then the good Sharon found out and went to get her baby back from the cylon ship.

From that point, everyone should know the baby is alive.

The only folks (besides dead Callie of course) who know the Chief's baby is a hybrid, are the final four.

What "they" would still think the other baby was lost? Initially everyone (cylon and human) thought the baby died, while Roslyn had it hidden.

Later the cylons found out the baby had not died, and took it back on New Caprica, but the humans thought it had died... then the good Sharon found out and went to get her baby back from the cylon ship.

From that point, everyone should know the baby is alive.

The only folks (besides dead Callie of course) who know the Chief's baby is a hybrid, are the final four.

Oops your right, hard to remember all the details.

Speaking of one, was it Callie that shot the first boomer after the Adama assassination attempt.

Oops your right, hard to remember all the details.

Speaking of one, was it Callie that shot the first boomer after the Adama assassination attempt.

Yes, it was. And it may be perverse, but that's something I never forgave her for.

Did anyone see the Star Trek TNG refference i n the BSG episode last night?

The Compartment Door that the Galactica 4 cylons keep meeting in is labeled 1701D.

:D


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13678756#post13678756


Also LOVED the easter egg in this episode! Did any of you catch it?


weapons locker 1701D...

Looks like I'm in the minority....

While I think this episode did well to advance the plot lines..... Everything seemed telegraphed and predictable which is not what I've seen in season's past.

* the scene with Lee at the counsel meeting. He gets shot down by the big boss, then counters by dropping a bomb. (course that kind of fuels the theory about Ros and #12 since she appears to be establishing ultimate control)Tony
Don't know how I missed this. I posted back at the end of S3 my belief that Ros was likely the errant cylon for a few reasons. The mind connections with Athena and Six was decent evidence, despite the fact that Ros was made to appear the least likely candidate of all. But something bizarre happened right towards the end of that ep, and I'm a firm believer that if its on the screen, RDM put it up there intentionally for a reason.

At the end of Crossroads Part II, the fleet jumps, Adama orders a strata scan, the camera zooms in on Ros who has clearly experienced some kind of physical or mental issue at that moment, a power fluctuation occurs which shuts down the entire fleet, and the volume goes up on 'Watchtower' as the '4' unkowingly head to their meetng place.

Now, could alll this be a red herring by RDM? Of course. Won't be the first or the last. But there was something about the timing and the expression on Roz' face that was entirely unnecessary, unless RDM wanted us to think this meant something. Yes, it could be nothing more than manipulative frakkin' around, but my gut doesn't easily buy that.

_______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

In the podcast for Crossroads II, RDM says that Roslin was having another vision at the moment they jumped into the nebula. But they cut the vision for time.

That's what he said. Now, of course, THAT could be a red herring, too. LOL

In the podcast for Crossroads II, RDM says that Roslin was having another vision at the moment they jumped into the nebula. But they cut the vision for time.

That's what he said. Now, of course, THAT could be a red herring, too. LOL
Gotta start listening to those podcasts. :( Did he say what it was supposed to be a vision of? Because, among other things, it could have been a vision of Roz herself with the other 4 in the meeting room. That RDM can be a tricky sonuvabitch. :)

_____________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Roslyn could be explained because she received the cylon blood, and it is responding to the cylon signal (designed for the final 4) when they jump to the nebula.

Roslyn could be explained because she received the cylon blood, and it is responding to the cylon signal (designed for the final 4) when they jump to the nebula.
Sorry, I've never really been that big a fan of the blood theory generally, and think too much has been made of it. Yes, the Athena connection is at least possible, because that's hera's mother (but still a stretch in my mind). BUT, as far as I recall, none of the other four who are part of the final five ever gave Roz blood, and there is no reason why Hera's blood should react to 'Watchtower'.

______________________________________________
Palladin

Chancce favors the prepared mind

Not to be a downer but I fully expect RDM to leave a number of questions that will be resolved in the Caprica spin off. For example the Col Tigh - how can he be a skin job?

Don't know how I missed this. I posted back at the end of S3 my belief that Ros was likely the errant cylon for a few reasons. The mind connections with Athena and Six was decent evidence, despite the fact that Ros was made to appear the least likely candidate of all. But something bizarre happened right towards the end of that ep, and I'm a firm believer that if its on the screen, RDM put it up there intentionally for a reason.

<snip>

_______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Now that you brought this up, I remembered something from that episode. Roslyn had the shared vision with Six (and Boomer/Athena ?) wherein Roslyn and Boomer were running behind Hera, and Hera gets picked up by Six. In that shot, there is someone else behind Six, in the doorway of the Opera House with the whole background being fuzzied up in a swell of light. At that moment, I thought it might be Baltar, but couldn't be certain.

Was this point discussed before? I only started reading this thread after the new season started.

Looks like I'm in the minority....

While I think this episode did well to advance the plot lines (Tori's acceptance as a Cylon, Lee''s impact on the counsel, Starbuck seeming more and more "resurrected, Cylon civil war) I didn't think it came across as well as with shows from previous seasons. Everything seemed telegraphed and predictable which is not what I've seen in season's past.

* the scene with Starbuck and Adam appeared to come straight from a soap. Overly toned down conversation slowing building up to a screaming match ending with kissing and "fracking." Soon as she started shoving him I knew they'd end up bumping uglies.
* the scene with Lee at the counsel meeting. He gets shot down by the big boss, then counters by dropping a bomb. (course that kind of fuels the theory about Ros and #12 since she appears to be establishing ultimate control) Most boring subplot evah philw1776
* Tori & Calli. Just seemed too cliche to have that whole storyline set up so that we never know whether she hallucinating or seeing reality. I did like Tori's character development and how's she's becoming sort of the leader of the 4. But again, this was all telegraphed throughout the last 2 episodes with how she's been acting like a bomb about to go off. The scene of her leaving the meeting let me know right then and there that Calli was a goner.
* Also, the airlock scene. So Calli goes from caring so much about not wanting her and/or her child to have to suffer to handing her child over to one of the last people on the ship she trusts??? Was I the only one who saw what was coming next? NO! philw1776(though that was probably the most entertaining part of the episode. Cyclon bitch slap!) :) :) :)
* And the Cyclon trap. Let's just say advanced intelligence does not appear to equal common sense.

I think maybe the absence of Six (Balter's version) over the last few episodes is making me a lil cynical. Just seems like with so many subplots, they aren't able to properly advance each one (ala Lost)


I'd posted much the same in another forum.
Aside from seeing the ever annoying Callie get what I've wanted for her for years, an awful episode. The opening scene with Adama & Ros was overdone to the extreme. They've destroyed Starbuck character for soap opera purposes. Lee becoming a pol is a major snore.

The Final 5 is a joke, members decided only recently by Moore who has such disdain for his audience that he slacked off and didn't think the story lines thru from the beginning. BSG was a great concept but season 3 showed the cracks and this last episode was excerable, again except for Callie's end. :D

Gotta start listening to those podcasts. :( Did he say what it was supposed to be a vision of? Because, among other things, it could have been a vision of Roz herself with the other 4 in the meeting room. That RDM can be a tricky sonuvabitch. :)

_____________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind


Yes, he can be! I don't remember if he said what the vision was, would have to listen to it again.

Didn't Caprica Six have a vision right around that moment, too? I can't remember exactly when she had her vision of the Final Five looking down on her and Baltar/Hera from the balcony of the Opera House, but if it was at the same time as when they jumped into the nebula, maybe Roslin was originally going to be in that vision, too. That's just a guess on my part, though.

* the scene with Starbuck and Adam appeared to come straight from a soap. Overly toned down conversation slowing building up to a screaming match ending with kissing and "fracking." Soon as she started shoving him I knew they'd end up bumping uglies.

Yeah no kidding, how many times have they done this now on this show, especially with Starbuck? Everything someone shoves someone as the opposite sex you can pretty much be sure that they're about 7 seconds away from making out and then getting it on.

As soon as she stood up and shoved Anders, I said "here we go again" outloud.

Well, I don't think the final 5 is a joke, I think Moore shows anything but disdain for his audience, and I thought the 3rd season was when the show really took off. Callie I never found annoying-in fact she was one of the moral compasses for this show, one of the few characters who's morals or motives were never questionable, and her death was about the most shocking moment this side of Whedon. Outside of those few minor quibbles I agree with your insights philw1776.:)

A decent episode.....but disappointing at the end.Maybe I missed something,but how did Tori know that Callie was the one eavesdropping?How did Tori know that Callie was in the airlock with the baby?

As someone above stated.......why would Callie give the baby to a cylon that she knew about?Wouldn't happen.Why wouldn't Callie go to a superior officer and report what she knew.Commit suicide w/o telling anyone what she knew?Not plausible.:(

Maybe I missed something,but how did Tori know that Callie was the one eavesdropping?

She put two and two together after Tyrol said that Callie probably got Tigh's note to meet there, and then a few seconds later she found out that someone was snooping. Not exactly going out on a limb to guess that it was Callie ;)

A decent episode.....but disappointing at the end.Maybe I missed something,but how did Tori know that Callie was the one eavesdropping?How did Tori know that Callie was in the airlock with the baby?

As someone above stated.......why would Callie give the baby to a cylon that she knew about?Wouldn't happen.Why wouldn't Callie go to a superior officer and report what she knew.Commit suicide w/o telling anyone what she knew?Not plausible.:(

Because she's Cally. She has been a selfish little immature whiner since the beginning of the show.

She had a crush on Tyrol. So she shot Boomer.
She was going to kill her own son, for goodness sake.

This was totally in character for her. Her world was crashing down and nothing else mattered to her. Nothing ever does.

_______

Having said that, it was a little sad that when she finally let her guard down around a Cylon, it bit her in the butt. Hey, maybe she was right all along! Oh well. :D

A decent episode.....but disappointing at the end.Maybe I missed something,but how did Tori know that Callie was the one eavesdropping?How did Tori know that Callie was in the airlock with the baby?

As someone above stated.......why would Callie give the baby to a cylon that she knew about?Wouldn't happen.Why wouldn't Callie go to a superior officer and report what she knew.Commit suicide w/o telling anyone what she knew?Not plausible.:(

My guess is not only was she totally distraught, but after suddenly finding out that both her husband and even Colonel Tigh were Cylons, she likely didn't think there was anyone she could trust.

Gotta start listening to those podcasts. :(
_____________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind
I'm new here and I discovered podcasts only in the last month or so. I think most of the other posters are regulars. But for those new to this thread I wanted to say that the podcasts are excellent. Lots of insight into plot, planning and how densely collaborative this effort has been.
My wife and I have been listening to Season three and we're up to episode 17 "Maelstrom".

I recommend podcasts to all who want more BSG. It's very apparent why RDM is as accomplished as he is by his discourse.
I haven't started on Season 4 yet. I'll do them with the DVDs.

then you'll see all the patterns...

OK, Leoben... cool it down with seeing the patterns.

Speaking of which, why are we so short on Leoben screen time when all this stuff is right up his alley?

- - -

Am I the only person who thinks maybe Tori is a bit different from Chief, Anders and Tigh? That maybe she hasn't over-ridden her programming as well as the others? Or that perhaps she's somehow in with Baltar now, and Head Six plus CyGod are pushing her in the wrong direction?

Tori at no point has seemed as inclined to over-ride her Cylon nature as much as the other three have.

Apologies, but I've skipped over the prior posts in this thread because I don't want to accidentally stumble across any spoilers.

I'm wondering if anyone can tell me whether Season 4 is the final season or not. I originally heard that it was going to be a 20-episode final season, then I heard that due to the strike-induced late start it was being re-vamped into two more 10-episode seasons (ie, Seasons 4 and 5 with 10 episodes each). Can anyone confirm one way or the other?

My understanding is that season 4 will be 20 episodes and will be the last season. However, it has not been confirmed whether season 4 will be shown straight through or if it will go on hiatus. Scifi normally will start new shows in Jan-Feb and then again in Jul. The writer's strike and BSG has been causing a change in the normal scheduling.

I'm wondering if anyone can tell me whether Season 4 is the final season or not. I originally heard that it was going to be a 20-episode final season, then I heard that due to the strike-induced late start it was being re-vamped into two more 10-episode seasons (ie, Seasons 4 and 5 with 10 episodes each). Can anyone confirm one way or the other?

Season 4 is the end by all accounts. Like previous seasons, the second set of ten episodes will be packaged as season 4.5, rather than season 5.0. You can see this especially in how previous seasons were marketed on DVD (2.5 was pushed especially hard).

Am I the only person who thinks maybe Tori is a bit different from Chief, Anders and Tigh? That maybe she hasn't over-ridden her programming as well as the others? Or that perhaps she's somehow in with Baltar now, and Head Six plus CyGod are pushing her in the wrong direction?

Tori at no point has seemed as inclined to over-ride her Cylon nature as much as the other three have.

Of course she's different, she's a different person with a different background. She's always been a bit cold and calculating and willing to do whatever it takes to achieve a given goal. For example,she was the primary architect of the plot to steal the election for Roslin, along with Tigh, interestingly enough. I don't really think that there is any kind of programing to overcome, at least any more than the average human has.
They've all responded to their newfound "identity" in ways in line with their personalities. Tory seems to be accepting, and even embracing, it, maybe because it gives her a newfound sense of purpose. Tigh seems to have gone into full-on survival mode, like he's always done. Tyrol seems to be agonizing over it, just like he's agonized over about everything else he's had to face. Anders, well, he seems to be the same old Anders, as though nothings changed. He might be in denial.:)

Now that you brought this up, I remembered something from that episode. Roslyn had the shared vision with Six (and Boomer/Athena ?) wherein Roslyn and Boomer were running behind Hera, and Hera gets picked up by Six. In that shot, there is someone else behind Six, in the doorway of the Opera House with the whole background being fuzzied up in a swell of light. At that moment, I thought it might be Baltar, but couldn't be certain.
Didn't Caprica Six have a vision right around that moment, too? I can't remember exactly when she had her vision of the Final Five looking down on her and Baltar/Hera from the balcony of the Opera House, but if it was at the same time as when they jumped into the nebula, maybe Roslin was originally going to be in that vision, too. That's just a guess on my part, though.
Well, so much for my intention to ease into this slowly. ;)
Yes, you are both correct that this was the same episode with Six in the Opera House and the glowing Final Five, so you probably have a good idea of where I'm heading with this. The proximity of those events were not the result of serendipity, but rather the raison d'etre for both.

________________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Anyone notice that its like there is more Cylon/Human baby making attempts going on, the whole Love/Sex thing. That is if you believe Starbuck and Baltar are not Skin-Jobs :) and yes I know Tory was supposed to be pumping him for information....did I really just type that with a straight face....but unless she is a great actor, she seems to be buying/drinking his cool aid, or yes maybe she is just cold and synthetic blooded

Anyone notice that its like there is more Cylon/Human baby making attempts going on, the whole Love/Sex thing. That is if you believe Starbuck and Baltar are not Skin-Jobs :)"Attempts" by who? I doubt that either Tory or Anders is consciously trying to produce a baby. Athena's baby was planned by the Cylons, who are unaware that Galen Tyrol is one of them, making Nicholas Tyrol a hybrid.

Lord only knows what Starbuck is. If by some bizarre miracle she even is the original Starbuck, she might not be capable of reproduction after having her plumbing hacked on by the Cylons.

Anyone else catch the constellation Orion in the scene where the baseships jump in right before they are surrounded and blown up?

Yes. Taurus was also visible in the correct position.

I wonder if they used an accurate starfield to indicate that they're near Earth, or if someone just decided to use an accurate starfield without thinking of what it might mean for the plot.

"Attempts" by who? I doubt that either Tory or Anders is consciously trying to produce a baby. Athena's baby was planned by the Cylons, who are unaware that Galen Tyrol is one of them, making Nicholas Tyrol a hybrid.

Lord only knows what Starbuck is. If by some bizarre miracle she even is the original Starbuck, she might not be capable of reproduction after having her plumbing hacked on by the Cylons.

I'm just saying we got some serious Inter-species Frakin going on...and when there's Frakin, babies are always possible...who's to say that the under-wiring or "sub-conscious" of all Skin Jobs 5.0 is not to create new hybrids...if one ..or two is important why not more; a new race has to start with more than one.

I know this probably doesn't make sense in the story arc right now...or could it...

My understanding is that season 4 will be 20 episodes and will be the last season.

Season 4 is the end by all accounts.

Thanks! I'm recording all the 4th season episodes and plan to watch them all together once they've all aired. I find it much more engrossing to watch them without a week's interruption between each one.

Now that you brought this up, I remembered something from that episode. Roslyn had the shared vision with Six (and Boomer/Athena ?) wherein Roslyn and Boomer were running behind Hera, and Hera gets picked up by Six. In that shot, there is someone else behind Six, in the doorway of the Opera House with the whole background being fuzzied up in a swell of light. At that moment, I thought it might be Baltar, but couldn't be certain.

Was this point discussed before? I only started reading this thread after the new season started.

Well, so much for my intention to ease into this slowly. ;)
Yes, you are both correct that this was the same episode with Six in the Opera House and the glowing Final Five, so you probably have a good idea of where I'm heading with this. The proximity of those events were not the result of serendipity, but rather the raison d'etre for both.

________________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I meant to say that there was someone other than Roslyn, Boomer and Six in that scene.. someone standing behind Six, in the doorway of the opera house as a bare silhouette in a swell of light.

Who could that have been?

I wonder if they used an accurate starfield to indicate that they're near Earth, or if someone just decided to use an accurate starfield without thinking of what it might mean for the plot.

That would be a huge frak up considering the way sci-fi fans are hyperanalytical about every detail. "Did you see that there was a frayed thread on that one outfit? That's a clue!!! In the second frame at 33 minutes and 22 seconds you can clearly see a frayed thread. He NEVER has a frayed thread. He's always super neat."

I think it is intended as a wink to the fact that Earth is nearby. Kinda like when you're playing warm-cold and people start shouting and laughing and screaming "You're on fire!!! You're damn near standing on it!!!!" And then somehow the person still manages to not find it.

she seems to be buying/drinking his cool aid, or yes maybe she is just cold and synthetic blooded

Up to that point, she really seemed like a woman who needed a good frak.:)


Lord only knows what Starbuck is. If by some bizarre miracle she even is the original Starbuck, she might not be capable of reproduction after having her plumbing hacked on by the Cylons.

Maybe they "spayed" her.:)

My guess is not only was she totally distraught, but after suddenly finding out that both her husband and even Colonel Tigh were Cylons, she likely didn't think there was anyone she could trust.

perfect explanation, and she didn't want her baby to fall in the hands of cylons. But that still doesn't explain why she gave her baby to Tori/cylon.

hmmmmm!!!

BSG is becoming very bizarre, they totally changed Lee's character he's kind of a prick(pardon my french) now.

I meant to say that there was someone other than Roslyn, Boomer and Six in that scene.. someone standing behind Six, in the doorway of the opera house as a bare silhouette in a swell of light.

Who could that have been?
I honestly had no idea what the hell this meant until I remembered there were 2 different scenes at the Opera House during that episode. You are referring to the first here, which took place prior to the end of the trial, and I am referencing the second, which took place after the verdict. For a moment there, you had really stumped the band.;)

Okay, let's go with your scene first. Yes, there is most definitely a momentary backlit silhouette in the hallway leading into the main chamber. It could be one of at least 3 people, because RDM enjoys these kind of fake-outs. It could be Baltar, as we see him in the very next shot with Six & Hera, but the silhouette's form seems to have a distinctly feminine Emma Peel angled at the hip-type pose. Of course, Baltar's hair length only helps to further obscure (thanks so much, RDM :rolleyes: ) the issue. Based upon the length and shape of the hair and form, it could also easily be Ros or possibly Tori.

Now in the second scene (post-trial, and the one I was originally talking about), we see Six, Hera & Baltar facing the stage of the O.H., and Baltar turns and looks up, apparently apprehensively, at the Final Five in the balcony. Now, if the vision is in anyway accurate, I'm uncertain as to why Baltar should be staring at the Final Five with confusion or consternation, if he is one of them. Unless, of course, the Baltar/cylon god really is a seperate identity. Something else troubled me in this scene. RDM seeems to utilize certain types of patterens symbolically. However, there seems to be an inconsistency to that on the stage of the O.H.in this scene. There are ribbons of white light on the stage (apparently echoing the figures of the Final Five), BUT there are SIX ribbons of light, as opposed to FIVE, which is either meaningful, or another example of RDM creating ambiguities, intentionally or otherwise, and the rest of us attributing meanings he's never even thought of. :confused: ;)

IOW, just like everybody else, I'm not exactly sure what this tricky S.O.B. is up to. ;)

____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Could we possibly standardize on the correct spellings of the characters' names? According to the cast list at scifi.com (http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/cast/index.php) it's "Roslin" and "Tory" and "Cally".

I really don't think that Baltar is a cylon. It's too trite, and the Cylons have already denied it. Roslin's my favorite candidate for the "Final One"--the shared dream with Athena and Six is otherwise inexplicable.

Could we possibly standardize on the correct spellings of the characters' names? According to the cast list at scifi.com (http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/cast/index.php) it's "Roslin" and "Tory" and "Cally".

I really don't think that Baltar is a cylon. It's too trite, and the Cylons have already denied it. Roslin's my favorite candidate for the "Final One"--the shared dream with Athena and Six is otherwise inexplicable.

Could be explained by traces of Cylon blood in Roslin.. and thereby that "moment of shared consciousness with the nearest Cylons. Baltar could have come from Six's figment of imagination within that dream..

But the monkey-wrench in the works with that explanation is.. why just that one instance of collective consciousness, and none ever since?

But the monkey-wrench in the works with that explanation is.. why just that one instance of collective consciousness, and none ever since?

Because they're Cylons, and not Borg. ;)

Where is Athena's and Helo's baby? Did they bring it with them on the jump ship to earth? I watched every show, but didn't see that. It would be strange for them to bring thier child on a possibly dangerous mission.

Last I looked, this was the AVS Forum, not the ANAL Forum.


Wow, thank gods. That would really be frakked. So say we all.

LMAO, so say we all!

I picked Roslyn as the fifth "Cyclon" awhile back, but was shot down because she has cancer.

How weird would be, the cylon and humans are almost to Earth, then Roslyn dies of cancer (fulfilling the prophecy) only to resurrect on a cylon ship, :eek: then you wait till 2009 for the second half.

Bickering and off-topic posts removed. Stay on topic, please.

Regarding Roslin as the final cylon. I seem to recall that RDM saying in an interview or podcast or somewhere that none of the people in the Last Supper picture (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34527294@N00/2177726792/sizes/l/) are the final five. And Roslin is in the pic.

Regarding Roslin as the final cylon. I seem to recall that RDM saying in an interview or podcast or somewhere that none of the people in the Last Supper picture (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34527294@N00/2177726792/sizes/l/) are the final five. And Roslin is in the pic.Excellent point. Another thing that elminates Baltar, as well. Of course, he could have been lying as a diversion :).

Regarding Roslin as the final cylon. I seem to recall that RDM saying in an interview or podcast or somewhere that none of the people in the Last Supper picture (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34527294@N00/2177726792/sizes/l/) are the final five. And Roslin is in the pic.
As I noted a few posts back, I've really never listened to the podcasts, but in light of what you and some others have posted, I probably should. So 'assuming' RDM is playing this one 'straight', I guess we need to start re-examining the remaining options as to who might appear to be the best 'fit'. I still like Lee as a candidate, and Adama based on what took place in Razer. I would like to think that with all the twists and turns that RDM has served up, it would be someone we would generally consider unlikely. Should we take turns advocating a position for each character, or just start a poll to see if there is any firm consensus?

___________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Regarding Roslin as the final cylon. I seem to recall that RDM saying in an interview or podcast or somewhere that none of the people in the Last Supper picture (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34527294@N00/2177726792/sizes/l/) are the final five. And Roslin is in the pic.

Well then "Tight" "Tyrol" and starbucks husband are all in it, they're not Cylons?

Or do you mean that the final fifth is not in there?

Well then "Tight" "Tyrol" and starbucks husband are all in it, they're not Cylons?

Or do you mean that the final fifth is not in there?
Well those posts offer two very different meanings. Does anyone have a link that would help?

_________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Well then "Tight" "Tyrol" and starbucks husband are all in it, they're not Cylons?

Or do you mean that the final fifth is not in there?Moore's statement was that the "Final One" wasn't in there--obviously three of "the four" (Tigh, Anders, Tyrol), two Sixes and a Eight are in that picture :).

Moore's statement was that the "Final One" wasn't in there--obviously three of "the four" (Tigh, Anders, Tyrol), two Sixes and a Eight are in that picture :).

Well if that's the case then that rules out Rislin as a Cyclon..

Interesting blog about this episode (Ties That Bind) HERE (http://sepinwall.blogspot.com/2008/04/battlestar-galactica-ties-that-bind.html).
I guess many people didn't like Cally. (Hated actually) Or the actress. I did. (do)

This will be the last exchange I will indulge you with on this topic.

Palladin (were you trying to spell the word "paladin" when you chose that username :)?),
No, I know how Paladin is spelled, but chose the alternate spelling out of necessity.

if had any iota of respect for you or anything that you have to say in these forums, I might have been hurt by your comments.
Since that speaks more to your own character than mine, no response is necessary.

But I do feel that noticing "six ribbons of light" in the opera house scenario and trying to draw conclusions from it is far more anal than my twinging when people misspell character names.
I was constructively attempting to add one more piece of information for the group's potential consideration, as I do not believe that RDM tends to be careless with regard to this series, and intends meanings that may often appear at first to be innocuous, but yield more under closer examination. That is very different than seeking others to change their posting styles to suit your own personal preferences.

(And yes, I appreciate the irony of my misspelling the word "misspell" while complaining about people misspelling character names, though I don't think that misspelling English words is as offensive as misspelling proper names, but that's just me). I don't have any "anger issues" about people's meaningless speculations about this show. We're all anal retentive geeks here, or wouldn't be wasting time reading and posting in forums like this. Any "anger issues" I had were over your pot calling my kettle black.
I guess that's one way to try to justify adopting a hypocritical approach (i.e. do as I say, not as I do),but that doesn't make it any less hypocritical.

As I've pointed out, I don't have any power to demand that people spell the characters' names correctly; it was just an ask. I don't expect for your to stop spelling Roslin as "Roslyn" or Tory as "Tori" or Cally as "Callie"; courtesy to the writers of the show would be out of character for you.
Ahh, now I understand. You were just trying to protect those poor helpless and defenseless writers of the show who are constantly checking this thread for misspellings of character's names. Well, you should have just said so, and we could've saved some time. :rolleyes: Right. Ron and Dave, on behalf of the members of this thread I humbly beg you to forgive our trespasses. :rolleyes: Do you actually believe this nonsense, let alone think that I do?? :eek:

This discussion is over.

___________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Well if that's the case then that rules out Rislin as a Cyclon..As was pointed out back a few posts (here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13686588#post13686588)) by gadianton when he brought Moore's comment up.
This discussion is over.What discussion? I innocently and politely asked whether people could try to spell the characters' names correctly; just an ask, which you were free to ignore, but you chose to uselessly make an issue over it, as though I got up in your face demanding something. Typical :rolleyes:.

I guess many people didn't like Cally. (Hated actually) Or the actress. I did. (do)

What I didn't like was that they punted the issue of someone else knowing who some members of the final 5 are, and more importantly,

they eliminated one thing I was looking forward to: the Chief/Cally/New Hybrid baby dynamic. You could say they gave them an episode, but there was more there. I guess they still have the baby.

Moore's statement was that the "Final One" wasn't in there--obviously three of "the four" (Tigh, Anders, Tyrol), two Sixes and a Eight are in that picture :).

Which still leaves Lt. Gaeta, rumored to be a Cylon since Boomer shot Adama (and Gaeta gave her a look before the shooting which launched the rumors that he as a cylon triggered Boomer).

My guess is not only was she totally distraught, but after suddenly finding out that both her husband and even Colonel Tigh were Cylons, she likely didn't think there was anyone she could trust.

Not to mention she was hopped up on sleeping pills and anti-depressants.

Has anyone else wondered if the sharon/boomers and 6s on galatica felt something when their sisters were totally obliterated? At least far as we know the Deana? model is still just boxed not destroyed.

I gotta say this season is plunging downhill. Three episodes and not one Cylon/Colonial space battle, excepting the half battle left over from the season cliffhanger, which was kinda lame. Some angst over "I hear music, I must be a Cylon". A soap opera episode about Calliegh and the Chief's marriage on the rocks, culminating in a murder.

It's certainly a good thing this is the last season. The first three episodes worth of plot could easily have been packed into one, and it would have been tighter and better.

Guess I am in the minority here. I didn't like this episode at all. I found it rather boring. The whole president and the Admiral's son is boring and seemed pointless. Oohhh they are debating how judges will be appointed. Reviting.

I was sad to see the Six's are stupid enough to be led into that trap. After all that has happened, they went in blindly and just said, oh you must of changed your ways, sure we will just take these couple ships and go wherever you want.

Starbuck's part of the episode was okay, and the only redeeming part but still, nothing there really. Just her painting, yelling, confused. No substance.

Oh well. Still an awesome series, but this episode had me bored.

Boomer was very disturbed by killing off her own kind.

I'd bet that she'll surprise us by doing something to either hurt the bad cylons or help the cause of the good cylons.

................and as devious as the 6s are, I'd bet they have a backup plan.

Guess I am in the minority here. I didn't like this episode at all. I found it rather boring. The whole president and the Admiral's son is boring and seemed pointless. Oohhh they are debating how judges will be appointed. Reviting.

I was sad to see the Six's are stupid enough to be led into that trap. After all that has happened, they went in blindly and just said, oh you must of changed your ways, sure we will just take these couple ships and go wherever you want.

Starbuck's part of the episode was okay, and the only redeeming part but still, nothing there really. Just her painting, yelling, confused. No substance.

Oh well. Still an awesome series, but this episode had me bored.

Huh, I thought these episodes have been fantastic. Much going on.

1. I took the whole President/Apollo exchange to be a set up for something major to happen down the road with respect to Roslyn's presidency - and Apollo is square in the middle of it. The main threat to her presidency is not going to come from Zarek - Roslyn seems to have neutered him externally. But internally, he appears to be as conniving as ever, and has apparently adopted Apollo as his protege. Nothing boring about this at all. The appointment of judges may have seemed mundane on its surface, but I thought there was a lot going on beneath the surface.

2. Six falling into a trap - I thought this was completely consistent with the cylons. Although the cylons can be pretty evil, backstabbing, etc. to their enemies, the humans, turning on one another is pretty new to them. I don't think the 6s even gave a thought to the possibility that the 1s would be this dastardly. My impression is that she thought she was being kind of smug and "funny" by having them killed. She knew that they would be resurrected, but she was sending a strong message. Cavil's response - killing them without a resurrection ship nearby was just evil, and not a response that the 6s ever would have expected. My take on it is that the other 6s (and the other models on her side) will declare an all-out civil war. Boring? Wow, not at all.

3. If there is one thing we have learned from this show (especially now that they have an end-date) is that things are thought well in advance. With Starbuck, it seems entirely consistent with someone obsessed with trying to accomplish something, but every decision made leads them further away. I thought they played her character very well - especially with her feelings of detachment. It's like she has been given a divine mission, but when she was reborn, she retained all of the things that made her kind of psychotic. It's a great combination, IMO, and great for her character.

There are many things that made me fall in love with this series, and one was the brash Starbuck and the cool Apollo in dogfights together. Sadly, those days are past. Frankly, if these characters didn't grow and change, the series would become a bit boring.

Hmm, I wonder if we'll see the surviving 6's and 8's (and Leobens?) and their Basestars limping away, then somehow trying to work to join on the human side.

Hmm, I wonder if we'll see the surviving 6's and 8's (and Leobens?) and their Basestars limping away, then somehow trying to work to join on the human side.

A human/cylon alliance would be interesting. But I think they would need a lot more than just the rest of this season to fully flesh something like that out.

A human/cylon alliance would be interesting. But I think they would need a lot more than just the rest of this season to fully flesh something like that out.

Anything can happen...after all, its TV. :)

From a logistics point of view, I think it's possible the writers are simply trying to set up an isolates Cylon contingent that Galactica can at least can put up a decent fight against. Just in terms of logistics, there must be a schism amongst the cylon if you want the cylon to be involved in anything other than the annihilation/conquest of the remainder of humanity at the close of the show. Galactica simply doesn't have enough nukes for the Cylon to be both cognizant of the fleet's location and whole...unless they go the whole germ warfare route, which I would have supported vehemently had I been involved with some of the events of season 3.

Looking at the ending...repeated evolutionary process? Machines rise, and exodus of their masters forces the "evolved" Cylon to join humanity as a biological partner? "They're all cylons" was something I posted during Season 1 at some other forum....could the colonists all be the result of an earlier, similar evolution? Like, perhaps, during something akin to our future planet earth, the "evolved" Cylons won, or lost and were exiled, and took on the role of humans on an off-world colony?

I gotta say this season is plunging downhill. Three episodes and not one Cylon/Colonial space battle, excepting the half battle left over from the season cliffhanger, which was kinda lame. Some angst over "I hear music, I must be a Cylon". A soap opera episode about Calliegh and the Chief's marriage on the rocks, culminating in a murder.

It's certainly a good thing this is the last season. The first three episodes worth of plot could easily have been packed into one, and it would have been tighter and better.

Wow, I guess we all have different opinions here. I always thought that the best aspects of this show are the character interactions and excellent character development. The battles are just a side aspect. I truly think if you are watching this show just for space battles, you are better off watching something else.

Okay so after you people ate my butt last year for me saying this show "Lacked action", I am giving it a shot this year....so I have a question for the sci-fi geek squad, do I need to be stoned or something while watching this?

Oh and as another poster said, little less BS, and a little more space battle type stuff wouldn't hurt the casual viewership. I think its real nice to explore the depths of chracters and mix in todays politics, but at some point I might as well switch over to CNN because the whole thing from an entertainment viewpoint begins to drag.

It is almost like going to see a movie that all the critics rave about, but afterwards you are sitting there saying "WTH was that?" ("The English Patient springs to mind).

This last episode wasn't my favorite but according to the reaction online, some are calling it the best of the series. We're all different, we all like different aspects of the show. And that's what makes it so great; there's a huge variety of things to like.

The space battles have always been secondary to BSG. It's a character-driven show. To put it bluntly, it's in its last season and they aren't pandering to new viewers or casual viewers. If you don't like it, that's really a shame. But you are free to change the channel.

It's not often a show gets to go out on its own terms. They are free from network prying or worrying about getting viewers caught up. They are doing this their own way and I applaud them for it. And I'm enjoying the ride until the end. There's not likely to be another show like this for a very long time. Some may say, "good riddance". Fair enough. Not me.

3. If there is one thing we have learned from this show (especially now that they have an end-date) is that things are thought well in advance.

You must be kidding. Moore himself said that they only decided on who the final Five were shortly before they were revealed. It's clear the "and they have a plan" applies neither to the Cylons or the writers.

Great concept for the series, fantastic start. Good characters, usually well written dialog and very well acted. However the entire track of Lee Adama's legal and political quest is a major snore to me. And they've recently made Starbuck into a soap opera queen. Gotta luv the recent Cylon on Cylon conflict. Masterfull.

But having a plan for the series and attention to details as precursors for things that are revealed in later episodes is not an attribute of this writing team.

I enjoy the series for what it is. What it isn't is something you can analyze to understand where the writers are going. They make it up as they go along, doing what seems cool at the time.

Okay so after you people ate my butt last year for me saying this show "Lacked action", I am giving it a shot this year....so I have a question for the sci-fi geek squad, do I need to be stoned or something while watching this?

Oh and as another poster said, little less BS, and a little more space battle type stuff wouldn't hurt the casual viewership. I think its real nice to explore the depths of chracters and mix in todays politics, but at some point I might as well switch over to CNN because the whole thing from an entertainment viewpoint begins to drag.

It is almost like going to see a movie that all the critics rave about, but afterwards you are sitting there saying "WTH was that?" ("The English Patient springs to mind).

Sounds like you think Rush Hour 3 deserved best picture...

:p

/and there's nothing wrong with that

Regarding Roslin as the final cylon. I seem to recall that RDM saying in an interview or podcast or somewhere that none of the people in the Last Supper picture (http://www.flickr.com/photos/34527294@N00/2177726792/sizes/l/) are the final five. And Roslin is in the pic.

Which leaves my choice still a viable option:

Doc Cottle

Why not?

No, but I think the two biggest travesty's at the Academy Awards in my lifetime, where "Titanic" getting Best Picture over "LA Confidential", and "Shakespere in Love" beating out "Saving Private Ryan" (I still remember the uncomfortble silence of the crowd for about 2 seconds before they applauded, it was as if everyone thought it was a joke).

Look I understand the character development, but if thats the case then BSG is basically a spruced up version of "Star Trek". For example "Jaws" was a great thriller, but wasn't it basically a modern day take on "Moby Dick"?

Thats my problem with BSG, nothing new, "Hey look at the poor struggling humans, fighting the mean robots, oh wait the robots aren't really robots, they are like humans, and they aren't as mean, and....blah, blah."

All we need is a cameo by Obama and its complete.

No, but I think the two biggest travesty's at the Academy Awards in my lifetime, where "Titanic" getting Best Picture over "LA Confidential", and "Shakespere in Love" beating out "Saving Private Ryan" .

mine are:
1. 1977 - star wars losing to annie hall.
2. 1982 - e.t. losing to gandhi.

i know im a sci-fi buff but cmon....kinda why i dont watch any award shows anymore....ok just the country awards cause the chicks are hot.

No, but I think the two biggest travesty's at the Academy Awards in my lifetime, where "Titanic" getting Best Picture over "LA Confidential", and "Shakespere in Love" beating out "Saving Private Ryan" (I still remember the uncomfortble silence of the crowd for about 2 seconds before they applauded, it was as if everyone thought it was a joke).

Look I understand the character development, but if thats the case then BSG is basically a spruced up version of "Star Trek". For example "Jaws" was a great thriller, but wasn't it basically a modern day take on "Moby Dick"?

Thats my problem with BSG, nothing new, "Hey look at the poor struggling humans, fighting the mean robots, oh wait the robots aren't really robots, they are like humans, and they aren't as mean, and....blah, blah."

All we need is a cameo by Obama and its complete.
Tough crowd here! Judging from these comments on BSG, you must really not like anything on television, other than Dexter!

The trouble with ranking and awarding entertainment vehicles like television and movies is that it is all subjective. I thought Shakespeare in Love was thousands of times better than Saving Private Ryan. Other than the first beach scene, I thought Ryan was just another shlocky American war movie. I do agree that Titanic winning was a joke!

In the end, we can all watch what we want, and are all free to change the channel or go read a book.

And I thought that Titanic deserved every accolade it received. So go figure.

I do agree about Star Wars/Annie Hall. Especially looking back on it now. Star Wars got ripped big time!

You can also put me in 'BSG is one finest Sci-Fi series ever created' catagory.

Boomer was very disturbed by killing off her own kind.

I'd bet that she'll surprise us by doing something to either hurt the bad cylons or help the cause of the good cylons.

................and as devious as the 6s are, I'd bet they have a backup plan.

That was because she physically witnessed it. I was referring to the boomers and 6s that would have no way of knowing what happened. Meaning some meta-physical or another unknown cylon communication method would be required for them to feel something had changed.

It was my impression that all of the 6s and sharon/boomers were on the ships that got destroyed. The only ones to survive were with the humans on galactica and of course the boomer/sharon with #1.

"Shakespere in Love" beating out "Saving Private Ryan" (I still remember the uncomfortble silence of the crowd for about 2 seconds before they applauded, it was as if everyone thought it was a joke).



That was a travesty...problem is the Academy is full of drama club geeks (isn't that how every actor/writer/director/producer, etc) gets their start? And that movie was a drama geek's wet dream.

Saving Private Ryan should have SKATED to a win...

Which leaves my choice still a viable option:

Doc Cottle

Why not?

Could be, but as I said in a few posts up, Gaeta makes more sense (no need for spoiler tags, because we are simply speculating):

Which still leaves Lt. Gaeta, rumored to be a Cylon since Boomer shot Adama (and Gaeta gave her a look before the shooting which launched the rumors that he as a cylon triggered Boomer).

That was a travesty...problem is the Academy is full of drama club geeks (isn't that how every actor/writer/director/producer, etc) gets their start? And that movie was a drama geek's wet dream.

Saving Private Ryan should have SKATED to a win...I hadn't even considered Saving Private Ryan. It was Elizabeth that got ripped off that year :).

I hadn't even considered Saving Private Ryan. It was Elizabeth that got ripped off that year :).

I'd disagree...but it would have been a better choice than Shakespeare in Love....

I'd disagree...but it would have been a better choice than Shakespeare in Love....

Shakespeare in Love was a film with a strong appeal to the academy. Just as the media loves reporting about itself, the acting business adores stories about acting.

All that said, it was one of the stronger years for films.

FTR, groundbreaking films rarely win Oscar honors. Look at Citizen Cane, which lost to How Green is My Valley. Obviously Cane is a landmark film. Although SPR isn't quite as groundbreaking as Cane, SPR rendered generations of war films unwatchable.

But, that's the Oscars for you.

Just remember, these are the folks that gave honors to Jerry Maguire (the most "gag me" film ever made) and My Cousin Vinny (a decent film, but Oscar worthy?).

So, If they kill all the 6's, 8's (Sharons), and Leobens, did they also killed all the sentient centurions? and in this case they will continue to build "dumb" centurions and raiders?

I guess we will have to wait and see the faith of the rebel cylons, at least they have some copies scattered, even if they completely wiped the basestars, we still got the 6 on galactica and the boomer on the trash freighter..

Also a very close call for one of the four seemenly unique cylons, I thought we almost lost one in the airlock.

Great season so far. Actually is starting to make up for the crappy previous season.

"Crappy?" Well, tastes sure differ. I'm still waiting for this season to reach the highs of Season 3.

Wow, I guess we all have different opinions here. I always thought that the best aspects of this show are the character interactions and excellent character development. The battles are just a side aspect. I truly think if you are watching this show just for space battles, you are better off watching something else.

I agree. BG has become one of my wife's favorite shows and she doesn't even like sci-fi or battle action. That shows just how strong the character drama is.

"Crappy?" Well, tastes sure differ. I'm still waiting for this season to reach the highs of Season 3.

I don't think it's tastes, but most (including the media, but not you I guess) will agree that the post-New Caprica episodes were a big let down (mostly filler eps), until the season finale.

And then most of the Season finale was great, except that, again, I know there are many of us who were disappointed that four of the final five are the Chief, Tigh, the Prez's right hand lady, and Anders.

With the last two, it's even more diappointing as they were not on the show since the beginning.

Y'know, I constantly hear from some how this show has gone downhill and how horrible season 3 was, etc. etc.

I don't see it. For me, this show has done nothing but improve. People claim season 3 was bad because of the "filler episodes" (Helo and the Sagittarons for one) but they ignore the fact that seasons 1 and 2 were CHOCK FULL OF "FILLER EPISODES"!!! (just for the record I don't believe that an episode with a story outside of the story arc is necessarily "filler")

I guess I just don't understand people who criticize this show (and other thought-provoking intelligent shows, films, music, etc). No, BSG is certainly not perfect, but would you rather be watching American Idol or something?

I agree. BG has become one of my wife's favorite shows and she doesn't even like sci-fi or battle action. That shows just how strong the character drama is.

This is exactly the reason that those clamoring for more battle action aren't going to get it. We all need to realize that BSG is Sci-Fi for people who don't like Sci-Fi.

BSG appeals to a wide audience because it is character/ideology/etc focused, and never gets bogged down with tech (as in Star Trek, which I like, but I admit that at times it is focused on warp drives and the like).

If you don't want "filler episdes" go watch a frakkin' 2-hour movie! :D

But having a plan for the series and attention to details as precursors for things that are revealed in later episodes is not an attribute of this writing team.

I enjoy the series for what it is. What it isn't is something you can analyze to understand where the writers are going. They make it up as they go along, doing what seems cool at the time.

I really wish we could get past comments like these. Everyone has a right to an opinion, but when they have no basis in fact then maybe a little discretion is called for. They certainly do have an overall plan, always have, and they're following it. To say they're "making it up as they go along" is ludicrous. While smaller "logistics" of plot and character certainly evolve over time, the "strategic" vision of where the show is going was in place from Day 1. That's what the executive producers tell us, and everything I've seen in this show buttresses that statement. These guys are brilliant writers.

When you have an open-ended series, of course there's going to be some meandering about as a fuzzy idea of where they're going coalesces over time. But in this case, they know precisely how long they have to finish the story and everything this season is directed toward that goal. Every step has been thoughtfully planned out, even as individual episodes are written and edited.

Some people say the same thing about the LOST writers not knowing where they're going, but those voices have quieted a bit this year as the plotline begins to be fleshed out for the home stretch drive where more and more connections to events in the first several seasons are revisited with significant results. Same will be true of BSG where, to give just one example, they've hinted at a future destiny for Starbuck involving "the Eye of Jupiter" since the first season. Let's please just give credit where credit is due, is all I'm saying.

Y'know, I constantly hear from some how this show has gone downhill and how horrible season 3 was, etc. etc.

I don't see it. For me, this show has done nothing but improve. People claim season 3 was bad because of the "filler episodes" (Helo and the Sagittarons for one) but they ignore the fact that seasons 1 and 2 were CHOCK FULL OF "FILLER EPISODES"!!! (just for the record I don't believe that an episode with a story outside of the story arc is necessarily "filler")

I guess I just don't understand people who criticize this show (and other thought-provoking intelligent shows, films, music, etc). No, BSG is certainly not perfect, but would you rather be watching American Idol or something?

Actually I watch AI too, but realize that it is mindless entertainment while BSG is thought-provoking.

The thing is, a true fan is critical, it just means you love the show that much. As a whole Season 3 was not as good as Seasons 1 or 2, although Season 3 contains some of the best eps ever (the resistance eps, season finale besides the reveal of 4 of the final 5).

I really wish we could get past comments like these. Everyone has a right to an opinion, but when they have no basis in fact, then maybe a little discretion is called for. They certainly do have an overall plan, always have, and they're following it. To say they're "making it up as they go along" is ludicrous. While smaller "logistics" of plot and character certainly evolve over time, the "strategic" vision of where the show is going was in place from Day 1. That's what the executive producers tell us, and everything I've seen in this show buttresses that statement.


I hear what you are saying, but I also saw somewhere that Moore and co. didn't decide who the revealed 4 of the final 5 were until very recently, not at the show's inception.

And IMHO, the final 5 is not a minor thing that you can just wing, but they did just that. That's why it was so disappointing to see who actually was 4 of the final 5, which included two characters who weren't there from the beginning.

Actually I watch AI too, but realize that it is mindless entertainment while BSG is thought-provoking.

The thing is, a true fan is critical, it just means you love the show that much. As a whole Season 3 was not as good as Seasons 1 or 2, although Season 3 contains some of the best eps ever (the resistance eps, season finale besides the reveal of 4 of the final 5).

Hmm, for me a show like Night Rider would qualify as mindless entertainment.

AI on the other hand......=P


BSG is in a league all it own...hopefully it has set somewhat of an example for future shows to follow...otherwise after this season is over...TV will once again be void of thought.

Wow, I guess we all have different opinions here. I always thought that the best aspects of this show are the character interactions and excellent character development. The battles are just a side aspect. I truly think if you are watching this show just for space battles, you are better off watching something else.

You spoke my exact thoughts as I read Gary's post. I find the character developments and interactions to be one of the main reasons I watch BSG. It's also interesting how many of the actors have had such a strong influence on their characters and in the resulting plot evolutions.

BSG is one of the most creative entertainment endeavors I've yet seen. And from my vantage point it has gotten better with time. (A few episodes have been less than I wanted but with the amount of screen time BSG has filled the quality is amazingly great.)

Oh and I do like big explosions in space. :D

I hear what you are saying, but I also saw somewhere that Moore and co. didn't decide who the revealed 4 of the final 5 were until very recently, not at the show's inception.


I would lump that in the "just details" category if in fact they always knew there were going to be a Final Five of Cylons who figure prominently in the endgame, but we won't really be able to pass a judgment on that until we have the luxury of looking back on the series as a whole.

^

Of course, I'm not saying it's above criticism, but it seems some people have a predisposition to bashing it. Here we are, 3 episodes in, and some are already talking about "going downhill" and "thank God they're ending it before it gets any worse" (paraphrase).

Of course it's not limited to just that. I just got done arguing with a guy bashing the upcoming Opeth album (which is not even out until June, mind you) even though he only heard 2 minutes of one preview track. I just don't get the hyper-critical mentality.

I'd disagree...but it would have been a better choice than Shakespeare in Love....

Shakespeare In Love is one the finest films ever made.
There, said it. The writing (Tom Stoppard), the acting and the music are first rate.

Oh and I really like Forrest Gump, too. (but you probably knew that. ;) )

I hear what you are saying, but I also saw somewhere that Moore and co. didn't decide who the revealed 4 of the final 5 were until very recently, not at the show's inception.

And just why is that so horrible?

Does the fact that they didn't have a plan set in stone from the beginning of the series somehow make the show inferior? No television writers have all the details worked out when they start a series, and if they tell you they do they're lying.

Shakespeare In Love is one the finest films ever made.
There, said it. The writing (Tom Stoppard), the acting and the music are first rate.

Oh and I really like Forrest Gump, too. (but you probably knew that. ;) )
I would wager to guess our DvD libraries are quite different.:D

Back to the original topic, my problem with BSG, and this is where I am not a SciFi fan, I like closure on things, good or bad, and its obvious BSG isn't going to offer a lot of closure. Also why shoyuldn't I expect mroe battle scenes, the name of the show is BATTLEstar Gallactica.

Oh and "Casablanca" is the best written movie of all-time.

Thats my problem with BSG, nothing new, "Hey look at the poor struggling humans, fighting the mean robots, oh wait the robots aren't really robots, they are like humans, and they aren't as mean, and....blah, blah."


Which is funny because on of the mantras of the show "it's all happened before, and will happen again"

After all, didn't someone once say all of humanities story's have already been told, it's just the details that change?



And IMHO, the final 5 is not a minor thing that you can just wing, but they did just that. That's why it was so disappointing to see who actually was 4 of the final 5, which included two characters who weren't there from the beginning.

I don't think you can make that statement, until you know the significance of the final 5.

It might just be they're the only ones that make sense and fit into the end game, but we don't know yet because we don't have all the pieces.

Here's a rhetorical question... Who would you have as the final four? I'm sure we could debate endlessly how it wouldn't work from a story point of view.

Back to the original topic, my problem with BSG, and this is where I am not a SciFi fan, I like closure on things, good or bad, and its obvious BSG isn't going to offer a lot of closure. Also why shoyuldn't I expect mroe battle scenes, the name of the show is BATTLEstar Gallactica.


Obvious to who? You? Okay; but not so obvious to me. And remember that this show is produced on a shoestring budget relative to a Big Four show like, say 'Firefly'. They can't have big space battles every week; there's neither money nor time for that. I think it's rather remarkable what they're able to do on a basic cable budget. And, as others have said, big pyrotechnics are not what this show is about anyways. It's a character drama first and foremost.

I would wager to guess our DvD libraries are quite different.:D

Back to the original topic, my problem with BSG, and this is where I am not a SciFi fan, I like closure on things, good or bad, and its obvious BSG isn't going to offer a lot of closure. Also why shoyuldn't I expect mroe battle scenes, the name of the show is BATTLEstar Gallactica.

Oh and "Casablanca" is the best written movie of all-time.
Why don't you think there's going to be closure? What is there that is "obvious"?
Perhaps your idea of closure is something different than mine. Closure, for me doesn't mean answering ALL questions posed - but there must be an understanding of what the overall arc of a story was about. And the end of the story should hint at many more stories possible. But NOT if that includes a cracking giant egg with a monster's scream just before or after credits. :rolleyes:
(Okay - I do watch Matthew Broderick's Godzilla when I need a stupid-popcorn-movie fix. :o )

Gotta agree with Casablanca.

Big fancy flashy space battles is NOT Sci-Fi...its Star Wars or Star Trek.

BSG is closer to what I would consider good sci-fi than anything that has been on TV.

Is made to seem real and not totally made up like Star Trek...very little need for techno babble to explain things.

Just look how its shot...particulary the scenes on the Bridge of the Galactica...very much like what you would see on a modern day carrier or battleship...even the sounds.

Kara plotting navigation...she was using a compass and protractor.

But all that aside....BSG is way more about the characters...the choices they make...the dilemma's they have...the interactions they have...it happens to take place in a "sci-fi"ish environment...which again is just like several of the greatest sci-fi novels and such.

There is so much a person can read into a particular scene or dialogue. And probably different from person to person...again making us think...which is another aspect of good sci-fi.

Oh...And I like big explosions in Space also but if BSG has to sacrifice somthing to be able to offer the great character development and acting we have scene then I can live without big fancy space battles :)

Thats what Birds of Prey,Star Destroyers and Winnebegos are for.

Big fancy flashy space battles is NOT Sci-Fi...its Star Wars or Star Trek.

BSG is closer to what I would consider good sci-fi than anything that has been on TV.

Is made to seem real and not totally made up like Star Trek...very little need for techno babble to explain things.

Just look how its shot...particulary the scenes on the Bridge of the Galactica...very much like what you would see on a modern day carrier or battleship...even the sounds.

Kara plotting navigation...she was using a compass and protractor.

But all that aside....BSG is way more about the characters...the choices they make...the dilemma's they have...the interactions they have...it happens to take place in a "sci-fi"ish environment...which again is just like several of the greatest sci-fi novels and such.

There is so much a person can read into a particular scene or dialogue. And probably different from person to person...again making us think...which is another aspect of good sci-fi.

Oh...And I like big explosions in Space also but if BSG has to sacrifice somthing to be able to offer the great character development and acting we have scene then I can live without big fancy space battles :)

Thats what Birds of Prey,Star Destroyers and Winnebegos are for.

I'd say you're close to the mark when comparing BSG to Star Wars... but not Star Trek. In fact, you can easily substitute everything you said about BSG with Star Trek, and still be accurate. Well... except for maybe the 'technobabble'. Which was mostly a crutch that 'Voyager' overused.

I'd say you're close to the mark when comparing BSG to Star Wars... but not Star Trek. In fact, you can easily substitute everything you said about BSG with Star Trek, and still be accurate. Well... except for maybe the 'technobabble'. Which was mostly a crutch that 'Voyager' overused.

Hmm, I have been a "trek" fan for a long time...and although it had some good "stories" that went beyond tricks...it was still too "unbelievable"....and too "perfect". If I try to imagine human beings in the future having space travel...what I see in BSG is way more believable than what I see in Star Trek.

And I disagree completely that Voyager was the only Trek that used that crutch...they all did..and sometimes to the determent of the story.

That said...I love Trek...Its a fun escape from reality....but it hardly ever made me "think" as much as BSG does.

My only hope is that this whole deal with Kara in BSG does not turn out to be some time-travel crap.

Look at Citizen Cane, which lost to How Green is My Valley. Obviously Cane is a landmark film.

How Green Was My Valley (A novel/film about a memory of time and place) is another one of my favorite films. (Richard Llewellyn's book is a great read.) I do think Citizen Kane was the film that should have won the Oscar though. Like BSG Citizen Kane was a large/complex film made with very little money.

Shakespeare In Love is one the finest films ever made.
There, said it. The writing (Tom Stoppard), the acting and the music are first rate.

This is why I'll never have a girlfriend again. After a few months I found myself saying crazy things like this. :confused:

my biggest oscar actor ripoff:
sean penn aka jeff spicoli in "fast times at ridegemont high"....classic.

I was really disappointed with the ending of Casablanca, I didn't think it was very good at all, very trite even when it was made. Citizen Kane was revolutionary film making in its day with the techniques used, but not a very good film. Shakespeare in Love and Titanic don't crack the Top 250 on IMDB for a reason, and I'll take Doctor Zhivago over Gone with the Wind - at least he had regrets and tried to help people and do right, Scarlet was just a self-centered tragedarian (I made that word up). Also, Return of the King is overrated and if any of the LOTR should have won, it was Fellowship. The list of Oscar winners that sucked is long, ugh, Chicago?? (though that was a lean year)

Anyway, I don't think BSG has ever really let me down, though I could have seen making the Callie story play out slowly over 2-3 eps, and I do miss a good battle like when they destroyed that first Resurrection Ship.

Big fancy flashy space battles is NOT Sci-Fi...its Star Wars or Star Trek.

Wow.

So Star Wars and Star Trek were not Science Fiction?

Shakespeare In Love is one the finest films ever made.
There, said it. The writing (Tom Stoppard), the acting and the music are first rate.

Oh and I really like Forrest Gump, too. (but you probably knew that. ;) )

It was entertaining for one sitting...and for me that was about it. Saving Private Ryan has stood the 'test of time' for my viewing. I can always watch it again, and I can always get choked up at the end.

But different strokes for different folks.

Wow.

So Star Wars and Star Trek were not Science Fiction?


Sure they were..just with a whole lot less "science".

Personally I would classify both BSG and Trek as Science Fiction, and place Star Wars in the Fantasy Genre. I like them all, but they are different.

This is why I'll never have a girlfriend again. After a few months I found myself saying crazy things like this. :confused:
:D

Try just once more. Maybe it won't sound crazy the next time you say things like that.

Sure they were..just with a whole lot less "science".

Not really any less so than BSG. The only difference is BSG is newer and brought up to date special effects wise. And the writing leans more towards the dramatic with less comedy. But just like Trek and SW, BSG has plenty of 'fiction' to go along with its 'science'. However, I'm not complaining. I like all of these shows. Adding "Firefly", I think you've got 4 of the best Sci-Fi shows ever created.

It* was entertaining for one sitting...and for me that was about it. Saving Private Ryan has stood the 'test of time' for my viewing. I can always watch it again, and I can always get choked up at the end.

But different strokes for different folks.
Yup - switch the titles and I have the same sentiment as you.
That's why things come in different colors.


(*Shakespeare in Love)

Not really any less so than BSG. The only difference is BSG is newer and brought up to date special effects wise. And the writing leans more towards the dramatic with less comedy. But just like Trek and SW, BSG has plenty of 'fiction' to go along with its 'science'. However, I'm not complaining. I like all of these shows. Adding "Firefly", I think you've got 4 of the best Sci-Fi shows ever created.


Me too.

But the distinction that I see between BSG and Trek is that BSG has yet...as far as I know to use "science" or "technobabble" as part of the explaining some story element or solving some story dilemma. I mean everytime I saw a TNG show that had Wesley Crusher uttering more than a single line...I knew I what sorta story and more importantly what sorta resolution whatever the problem of the week was gonna have....And I learned to shut my brain off.

Many of the stories and dilemma faced by the characters in BSG could just easily be taking place today...since the fact that its on a space ship plays very little into it.

For me unbelievable science was too much a factor in alot of Trek.

I hope everyone does not take me the wrong way. I love Star Trek...have found something I like with just about every incarnation of it...ok except maybe Voyager.. And would take watching re-runs of Trek over most of the american idol style crap thats on TV these days. But I simply do not place it at the top of what I consider good science fiction.

Yup - switch the titles I have the same sentiment as you.

That's why things come in different colors.

There are FOUR Lights.

There are FOUR Lights.

I'm sure later on today I'll be doing some task and I'll stop and say: "Oh, that's what he meant." :)

Actually I watch AI too, but realize that it is mindless entertainment while BSG is thought-provoking.

The thing is, a true fan is critical, it just means you love the show that much. As a whole Season 3 was not as good as Seasons 1 or 2, although Season 3 contains some of the best eps ever (the resistance eps, season finale besides the reveal of 4 of the final 5).

My sentiments exactly. To me, the more bickering over the details and direction of a show the more it seems to me that it's a show worth watching. I've been following this thread from the beginning and several times I've seen comments that spark interesting conversation and I consider that an extension to the content of a show. The same with Lost, a show that's been critiqued extensively since the 1st season.
As a whole, BSG at its worse is far better than 95% of what's on tv (IMHO) and I've been enjoying the ride.


Just gotta get past why a ship that can navigate to space and time with FTL's needs someone to use a protractor and a compass:p
My $.02
Tony

Which leaves my choice still a viable option:

Doc Cottle

Why not?

Ive been saying this for the past 2 years

Sure they were..just with a whole lot less "science".

You really think Star Trek was a lot less "science". Wow, I've seen some of those Nova specials dedicated to the science of Star Trek. Incredible puts it mildly.

I'm sure later on today I'll be doing some task and I'll stop and say: "Oh, that's what he meant." :)

LOL

Just a hint... think of a two-part episode.

Ive been saying this for the past 2 years

I have thought that from the beginning.

I have thought that from the beginning.

hes perfect - hes been here since the start, hes always been reliable...he somehow can smoke excessively and not die and he is old which implies he could mastermind it all

You really think Star Trek was a lot less "science". Wow, I've seen some of those Nova specials dedicated to the science of Star Trek. Incredible puts it mildly.

I guess I am not explaining myself very well...oh well. Trek used science and very unrealistic science as a major plot element too often. The enterprise, the transporters, the EPS conduits, the plasma injectors, the warp core were almost "characters" themselves.

And I seriously doubt that Star Trek is the reason we have cell phones today.

Didn't Discovery channel also have a special about the "Science of Star Wars"? =P

hes perfect - hes been here since the start, hes always been reliable...he somehow can smoke excessively and not die and he is old which implies he could mastermind it all

And could easily know who is and is not a Cylon...and perhaps was the "trigger".

With regards to the final cylons being decided at the last minute...

It is entirely possible that while the specific identities were decided by the writers at a last-minute roundtable... the groundwork could still have been written much earlier.

I expect that the reality here is that the writers had a bunch of characters (some from the beginning, others newly added along the way) that they left some nebulous backstory and always wrote with a "what if" mindset so that they could always pick from that pool of characters ultimately. Then, they let the characters and story evolve and write themselves to a point where the final five essentially reveal themselves to the writers.

It's actually a very good way of crafting a story that evolves naturally in the context of the show, leaves itself a little wiggle-room, and still can tie up plot points when the need arises.

I guess I am not explaining myself very well...oh well. Trek used science and very unrealistic science as a major plot element too often. The enterprise, the transporters, the EPS conduits, the plasma injectors, the warp core were almost "characters" themselves.

And I seriously doubt that Star Trek is the reason we have cell phones today.

Didn't Discovery channel also have a special about the "Science of Star Wars"? =P

Yes they did.

Any type of Science Fiction has a certain amount of science and a certain amount of fiction, by defnition. How much or how little the fiction follows 'plausable' scientific extrapolation doesn't change whether it is science fiction or not. People have come up with sub-categories to help gather together types of science fiction into buckets based on that. For instance: Hard Sience Fiction is the stuff that tries to stay very close to science and plausible science (stuff that has been theorized about). Things like Asimov and Clark. Space Opera is the term coined for things like Star Wars where the science doesn't really matter very much.

Star Trek originally attempted to stay closer to Hard Science Fiction then Space Opera. They had staff assigned to research the science and try to keep things within the theoretically and plausable.

As much as I love BSG I have to say it is more Space Opera then Hard Science. There's no explaination for anything on the show (science wise). It mostly stays in the realm of the plausable by not departing very much from current day. The technology needed to create an AI raise that could rebel against its makers is not really seen in the technology the humans have. Sure there is attention to details like making the ships move somewhat realistically (inertia), and having the attitude jets and such, but what fuels the ships? Why would they be under near-constant burn? What's the theory behind the FTL engines? Why haven't they developed anything past slug-throwers and nukes?

You could take BSG and transplant it on a bunch of pre-industrial or renaissance sailing ships trying to find the new world and it wouldn't be that much different, except for the cylons. I mean insofar as the world that the characters live in (not the plot).


Star Trek may not be the reason we have cellphones, but I think it would be difficult to discount it entirely as the reason for 'flip phones'.

There are FOUR Lights.

Good Ep. :-) And it put Marina Sirtis in a uniform... Nice :-)

Apparently the producers saw her in the uniform for the first time and said..."Why didn't we do this before?!!?!?!"

Me too.

But the distinction that I see between BSG and Trek is that BSG has yet...as far as I know to use "science" or "technobabble" as part of the explaining some story element or solving some story dilemma. I mean everytime I saw a TNG show that had Wesley Crusher uttering more than a single line...I knew I what sorta story and more importantly what sorta resolution whatever the problem of the week was gonna have....And I learned to shut my brain off.

Many of the stories and dilemma faced by the characters in BSG could just easily be taking place today...since the fact that its on a space ship plays very little into it.

For me unbelievable science was too much a factor in alot of Trek.

I hope everyone does not take me the wrong way. I love Star Trek...have found something I like with just about every incarnation of it...ok except maybe Voyager.. And would take watching re-runs of Trek over most of the american idol style crap thats on TV these days. But I simply do not place it at the top of what I consider good science fiction.


"Science" did come up a lot in ST:TNG, but then again, ST:TNG had it's moments that had nothing to do with "Science."

For example, Season 1 gem entitled "Justice." (Coincidentally the ep centered around Wesley Crusher). They go to a planet where Wesley breaks a law and steps on a few flowers. The punishment for breaking the law is death. In the ep, as in our [american] justice system, the people of the planet point out that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Although there is some sciency stuff, Picard argues that "life itself is an exercise in exceptions", and to every living creature within the sound of his voice, "there can be no justice so long as laws are absolute!"

Riker adds, "When has justice ever been as simple as a rulebook?"

Then they all get transported off the planet as the "Gods" of the planet apparently pardon Wesley.

That ep centered around legal theory and respect for the laws of a sovereign entity.

But yeah, BSG could easily be a totally non sci-fi genre show and still work, while the Star Trek's *need* their space/future/warp/anti-matter stuff.

Ive been saying this for the past 2 years

Am I the only one who thinks it's Gaeta?

LOL

Just a hint... think of a two-part episode.

Is this an ST:TNG reference? Picard tortured to say the opposite of what he sees?

And I see someone has responded to the Four lights phrase.
Yes, Marina Sirtis. :p

I guess maybe I am just not a "Deep thinking" sort of guy when it comes to my television viewing.

I really want to believe in the writers ability to deliver on this final season. But when Cavil mentions a
http://skugg.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/can-of-worms.jpg
it puts a huge strain on my go-with-the-flow. Are these genetically engineered Cylon worms? Do Cylons use can openers or tab tops? Can it be that Cavil is just a good 'ole boy who spent his summers on old Earth in Scranton fishing behind the shed that his Grandpa built?

Is there a BSG Writers Bible? Or can any old idiom make it past QC?

That said, I've been completely "hooked" since the mini-series.

Is this an ST:TNG reference? Picard tortured to say the opposite of what he sees?

And I see someone has responded to the Four lights phrase.
Yes, Marina Sirtis. :p

That was the ep when they took the Enterprise away from Picard to send him off an a suicide mission that turned out to be a trap. He was tortured for info (which he never gave), and was brought to the brink with the question "How many lights do you see" (there are 4). Picard answers 4 and is tortured. The interrogator tells him there are 5 lights. At the end Picard almost breaks but is 'rescued' via diplomacy.

He confesses to Counselor Troi that he actually did see 5 lights at the end.

The hardass who took over the Enterprise while Picard was gone made Troi wear a regular uniform...and she looked SMOKING in it. So they kept it, even after Picard returned.

...snip...

The hardass who took over the Enterprise while Picard was gone made Troi wear a regular uniform...and she looked SMOKING in it. So they kept it, even after Picard returned.


Glad to hear that I wasn't the only one that thought Troy looked really good in it. :)

mine are:
1. 1977 - star wars losing to annie hall.
2. 1982 - e.t. losing to gandhi.

i know im a sci-fi buff but cmon....kinda why i dont watch any award shows anymore....ok just the country awards cause the chicks are hot.

I'll give you Star Wars, but comparing E.T. to Gandhi? You've got to be kidding me ! You can't but appreciate how authentic the portrayal of Gandhi and the life in India circa 1900-1948. Ben Kingsley's portrayal of Gandhi has to be one of the greatest roles ever reprised in Hollywood history. There was no Ben Kingsley, he WAS Gandhi personified.

E.T., in all fairness, was a great movie, but it does not hold a candle to Gandhi in terms of sheer artistry and film making. A better Spielberg achievement worthy of standing next to Gandhi would be Schindler's List. Two of the greatest movies ever made.

Transported off the planet.. there's your science part right there.. LOL

Is there a BSG Writers Bible? Or can any old idiom make it past QC?



In one of those Sci-fi channel documentaries, back when season 1 was about to start, Moore had some sort of book/booklet that he called the series' "bible." I'm sure some of it gets left open to interpretation, though. In terms of language, it probably says whatever it takes to make it fully recognizable to average people today and prevent the type of "disconnect" that so often plagues sci-fi shows.

This whole argument about which show is 'more' science fiction is just silly. If we compare any ONE of these shows to say the actual proposed vehicles for the upcoming mission to Mars, and what it will take for us to get there and back, then they ALL look pretty far out there.

That was the ep when they took the Enterprise away from Picard to send him off an a suicide mission that turned out to be a trap. He was tortured for info (which he never gave), and was brought to the brink with the question "How many lights do you see" (there are 4). Picard answers 4 and is tortured. The interrogator tells him there are 5 lights. At the end Picard almost breaks but is 'rescued' via diplomacy.

He confesses to Counselor Troi that he actually did see 5 lights at the end.

The hardass who took over the Enterprise while Picard was gone made Troi wear a regular uniform...and she looked SMOKING in it. So they kept it, even after Picard returned.

Thanks Iteki. I should have remembered that better. I do remember his confessing to seeing 5 lights at the end. I'll have to revisit TNG someday. My wife and I were into TNG almost to the extent of our BSG interest.
http://www.hellenism.net/images/famous/sirtis.jpg

BSG is in a league all it own...hopefully it has set somewhat of an example for future shows to follow...otherwise after this season is over...TV will once again be void of thought.Strongly agreed. Lost is the only other thing that comes even close.

BTW, "....there__are__foah'__lights....!" I had to get that outta my system. :D

Its a good thing LOST is coming back because somehow this thread has been infected with the stuff that prevailed in 28 Days Later. Hmm. Actually that may not be fair to the denizens of 28 Days Later. Its more like someone's dumped an alien variation of purple microdot in this thread's water supply.

This is the BSG thread, or at least one of them, isn't it? So what's the topic of discussion? Bsg, no? And yet, for some entirely questionable purpose, you've got 'Shakespeare in Love' admirers gathering together for a group pedicure, grown trekkers who are still obsessing over Troi's tits, which really makes little sense when you stack up [pun intended] ;), the overall group of hot chicks that BSG offers even the most discriminating or horniest sci-fi geek who is still trying to get to 2d base with his cousin. :rolleyes:

So let's focus for a moment on the criticsm, undeserved or not, which is specifically being leveled at this show. And to avoid any confusion, I will own up at the onset that I have, and still do, consider this one of the very best shows currently avaiable on television, and possibly for some time to come, warts and all.

I'd love to put a copy of this series and thread in a time capsule and bury it for, oh say maybe 3 or 4 years, and then pop it open for comparison with the prevailing 'hot show' at that time, to see how it fares against it. Let's not forget that 'Heroes' became a red-hot show right out of the gate, only to stumble and break its leg at the second corner/season turn.

So why should BSG be any better in its 2d or 4th Season? Pretty much the basics. A clear and committed vision enhanced by writing which appeals to our intelligence, as well as our need for adventure. I can only speak for myself, but generally I'm looking for entertainment which doesn't necessarily pander to the lowest common denominator. If the story is compelling, the characters have qualities that keep them interesting, and there is a dedication to the concept that a series can be something more than a lightweight piece of crap to fill up the lethargic air space between advertising revenue, I can easily forgive its occassional stumble, or an episode that was not as strong as other chapters of that same saga for some reason. Because, in this instance, the whole really is greater than the sum of its parts. And if its science does not strictly adhere to the precepts we recognize, I can live with that too, because there's no reason creativity should be shackled to those limitations.

In a sense, I think it will prove to be a legacy to another generation.

___________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I really wish we could get past comments like these. Everyone has a right to an opinion, but when they have no basis in fact then maybe a little discretion is called for. They certainly do have an overall plan, always have, and they're following it. To say they're "making it up as they go along" is ludicrous. While smaller "logistics" of plot and character certainly evolve over time, the "strategic" vision of where the show is going was in place from Day 1. That's what the executive producers tell us, and everything I've seen in this show buttresses that statement. These guys are brilliant writers....

Some people say the same thing about the LOST writers not knowing where they're going, but those voices have quieted a bit this year as the plotline begins to be fleshed out for the home stretch drive where more and more connections to events in the first several seasons are revisited with significant results. Same will be true of BSG where, to give just one example, they've hinted at a future destiny for Starbuck involving "the Eye of Jupiter" since the first season. Let's please just give credit where credit is due, is all I'm saying.

You have a very strange definition of fact. Fact is that Moore said they only decided on the Final 5 just before that episode. Moore has also said that attention to details and consistency is not important to him. Your mileage may vary.

You mentioned LOST where from the beginning the writers had a plan. LOST afficianados can consistently see the seeds of later revelations sewn in earlier episodes. A well planned storyline, of course modified by creative insight as it evolves. It doesn't have to be rigid, just consistent.

Moore and company are the antithethis of this type of well planned storyline.

I guess you'll just have to deal with "comments like these".

And yet, at least for Tyrol, there have been glimpses of his "cylon-ness" (or is it "cylon-hood") from a while ago. When he was inexplicably taking freak-walks around the ship, then proceeded to beat the crap out of Callie? Then his connection to the final five temple?

HOWEVER - I will grant that the others seem to have been decided late in the game, almost as if RDM sat down and said, "who are the least likely to be cylons," then made them cylons (especially Tigh). But although I felt that this was written into the show late (except for Tyrol), I am willing to suspend my disbelief if the final reason or explanation for the final five makes sense. Right now, it doesn't - because if you look at Tigh, he has been with Adama even before the skin jobs were in existence (although according to Razor, they were experimenting back then...) Either the skinjobs go back a bit further than anyone thinks - or they go back A LOT further than anyone thinks, and aren't really cylons, in the sense that they were created by the metal ones. This would make a bit of sense since the temple of 5 definitely predates the metal cylons (by thousands of years, seemingly) and appear to be connected to the final five.

All this has happened before...

Is there a BSG Writers Bible? Or can any old idiom make it past QC?

According to Moore there is a writer's Bible but it only sketches out the general parameters. He said that he got tired of the restrictions of Star Trek which put him in a "box" creatively.

The commentary track on the miniseries answers a lot of these type questions about the writers' intentions when they started off.

Basically, when they started off, their entire concept was that the show should look and sound as realistic as they could possibly make it. That's why they filmed it documentary-style. It also led them to use props from everyday life rather than the conventional sci-fi gizmos (talking into a regular telephone rather than a "communicator" for instance).

It's also the reason they use the kind of language they do. It's just a way to connect with the casual viewer. They took a calculated risk, figuring it was better to try and appeal to a wider non sci-fi audience.

Personally, I think it works. There's something a lot more visceral and real when Adama picks up the telephone handset to make an announcement than when Picard taps his communicator.

Sure, there are slip-ups and things that make no sense whatsoever (Tigh's exclamation of "Jesus Christ!!!" in a recent episode particuarly) but they're just tiny little details that have no bearing at all on the story.

People need to just sit down, relax and enjoy the show instead of worry-warting over every little minor tihng. There are much bigger concepts at work to mull over here rather than picking apart inconsequential details.

Its a good thing LOST is coming back because somehow this thread has been infected with the stuff that prevailed in 28 Days Later. Hmm. Actually that may not be fair to the denizens of 28 Days Later. Its more like someone's dumped an alien variation of purple microdot in this thread's water supply.

This is the BSG thread, or at least one of them, isn't it? So what's the topic of discussion? Bsg, no? And yet, for some entirely questionable purpose, you've got 'Shakespeare in Love' admirers gathering together for a group pedicure, grown trekkers who are still obsessing over Troi's tits, which really makes little sense when you stack up [pun intended] ;), the overall group of hot chicks that BSG offers even the most discriminating or horniest sci-fi geek who is still trying to get to 2d base with his cousin. :rolleyes:

So let's focus for a moment on the criticsm, undeserved or not, which is specifically being leveled at this show. And to avoid any confusion, I will own up at the onset that I have, and still do, consider this one of the very best shows currently avaiable on television, and possibly for some time to come, warts and all.

I'd love to put a copy of this series and thread in a time capsule and bury it for, oh say maybe 3 or 4 years, and then pop it open for comparison with the prevailing 'hot show' at that time, to see how it fares against it. Let's not forget that 'Heroes' became a red-hot show right out of the gate, only to stumble and break its leg at the second corner/season turn.

So why should BSG be any better in its 2d or 4th Season? Pretty much the basics. A clear and committed vision enhanced by writing which appeals to our intelligence, as well as our need for adventure. I can only speak for myself, but generally I'm looking for entertainment which doesn't necessarily pander to the lowest common denominator. If the story is compelling, the characters have qualities that keep them interesting, and there is a dedication to the concept that a series can be something more than a lightweight piece of crap to fill up the lethargic air space between advertising revenue, I can easily forgive its occassional stumble, or an episode that was not as strong as other chapters of that same saga for some reason. Because, in this instance, the whole really is greater than the sum of its parts. And if its science does not strictly adhere to the precepts we recognize, I can live with that too, because there's no reason creativity should be shackled to those limitations.

In a sense, I think it will prove to be a legacy to another generation.


___________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

wow.

I don't want to spend much time with this. It's, of course, very ironic but I agree with the necessity to keep ontopic and I apologize for veering off. The insulting nature of what you write is what I expected after lurking here for some time. It's mostly egocentric, I realize, but it is a waste of writing talent.

I agree with your last assertion about BSG's quality and what constitutes that quality. It's all about character integrity. You say it better than I and I will not merely paraphase.
One disagreement (and the reason I write). I am currently watching season one of Heroes (OT but there is a precedent - yours) and, while I am enjoying it, I am surprised by the poor writing. Hackneyed phrases keep popping up and the character depth is lacking. I am halfway through and I do keeping watching but it is not A or even B work. It's a solid C+ that I hope improves.
Whenever I have noticed an easy plot device or some other qualitative slip in BSG there always seems to be a future rectification that allows me to get back in and "believe" what I am seeing.

Keep a close eye on us now. ;)

Either the skinjobs go back a bit further than anyone thinks - or they go back A LOT further than anyone thinks, and aren't really cylons, in the sense that they were created by the metal ones.

I believe this is supposed to be the idea. Like you said, the time cycles thing. The Cylons have probably been around for a very long time indeed. The humans create the Cylons, the Cylons turn against the humans, the Cylons become human, the two races reach some resolution, and the cycle begins to repeat all over again.

You have a very strange definition of fact. Fact is that Moore said they only decided on the Final 5 just before that episode. Moore has also said that attention to details and consistency is not important to him. Your mileage may vary.

You mentioned LOST where from the beginning the writers had a plan. LOST afficianados can consistently see the seeds of later revelations sewn in earlier episodes. A well planned storyline, of course modified by creative insight as it evolves. It doesn't have to be rigid, just consistent.

Moore and company are the antithethis of this type of well planned storyline.

I guess you'll just have to deal with "comments like these".

You seem to have a major problem with this show.

I would suggest simply not watching it, if it bothers you that much.

wow.

I don't want to spend much time with this. It's, of course, very ironic but I agree with the necessity to keep ontopic and I apologize for veering off.
The insulting nature of what you write is what I expected after lurking here for some time. It's mostly egocentric, I realize, but it is a waste of writing talent.
There is certainly no need to apologize for veering off from keeping on topic here, as its a constant at any forum. Just to be clear, my comment was not directed at anyone specifically or personally, and I regret that you may have thought it was intended that way. Actually, it was more an attempt at general flippancy to try to bring us collectively back into focus with the purpose of the thread. And if I was unsuccessful in that regard, than I do apologize if I unintentionally insulted you, particularly as I enjoy reading your posts. And I won't address the remainder of your paragraph, as it appears to have arisen as part of a misunderstanding.

I agree with your last assertion about BSG's quality and what constitutes that quality. It's all about character integrity. You say it better than I and I will not merely paraphase. One disagreement (and the reason I write). I am currently watching season one of Heroes (OT but there is a precedent - yours) and, while I am enjoying it, I am surprised by the poor writing. Hackneyed phrases keep popping up and the character depth is lacking. I am halfway through and I do keeping watching but it is not A or even B work. It's a solid C+ that I hope improves.
Whenever I have noticed an easy plot device or some other qualitative slip in BSG there always seems to be a future rectification that allows me to get back in and "believe" what I am seeing.
Yes, I strongly agree that 'integrity' is a very important attribute both in ourselves, as well as in our connections with fictional characters. It is what makes us better than we might be.

Heroes downfall was its success. In the words of Pink Floyd, it 'traded a walk-on part in the war, for a lead role in a cage').

Keep a close eye on us now. ;)
Hmmm. Not exactly sure what that means. Should I be prepared to duck? :D

_________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

It's also the reason they use the kind of language they do. It's just a way to connect with the casual viewer. They took a calculated risk, figuring it was better to try and appeal to a wider non sci-fi audience.



I don't concern myself with the language - and I think you are referring to the particular idioms they say. But it goes beyond that, of course. After all, they are speaking perfect English! So my take on it is that any particular resemblance to our world is only done so to make it approachable to us, English speaking earthlings of the 21st century. Therefore, I "pretend" they are not REALLY speaking English. I pretend that when they use words like "Jesus Christ" or "Can of Worms", that it is really other concepts that are "translated" to make it understandable for us. When they use a song such as "All Along The Watchtower," I simply believe that it is a different song in the "reality" of the show, and not meant to be any clue as to when the show might take place. In other words, if the show had no connection to us, we wouldn't watch.

By doing this, nothing they say or do is out of place at all.

Sure, there are slip-ups and things that make no sense whatsoever (Tigh's exclamation of "Jesus Christ!!!" in a recent episode particuarly) but they're just tiny little details that have no bearing at all on the story.



When did he do that? I certainly didn't notice. I did, however, notice that Starbuck said 'radar' while planning the op in "Hand of God," but that may not mean anything.

You seem to have a major problem with this show.

I would suggest simply not watching it, if it bothers you that much.

Perhaps you read my response, not my original post which listed the many attributes of BSG that I liked. Apparently not enough points for the True Believers though.

You and other acolytes seem to have a major problem with any cogent critism of BSG's writers lack of discipline and forethought.

I would suggest you not reply, if any criticism whatsoever bothers you that much.

Perhaps you read my response, not my original post which listed the many attributes of BSG that I liked. Apparently not enough points for the True Believers though.

You and other acolytes seem to have a major problem with any cogent critism of BSG's writers lack of discipline and forethought.

I would suggest you not reply, if any criticism whatsoever bothers you that much.

Your "criticism" seems to be based in the idea that the writers haven't planned far enough ahead to satisfy your whims. This is not constructive criticism, it's just speculative bashing.

Again, all I'm saying is that if it bothers you that much, just stop watching. "Lost" started getting on my nerves after a while, so I simply stopped watching it. Life's too short to let yourself get so agitated over these things.

And again, no television writer has everything mapped out. Those that tell you they do are lying through their teeth.

And since you want to get personal: Yes, I have read many of your posts, and it's always the same old thing. Your act is getting old, and frankly, you come off as a grade A jerk.

Am I the only one who thinks it's Gaeta?

Well flashback to season 3, and recall that Baltar whispered something to Gaeta, and was almost killed as a result. Still wondering what was said ...

Perhaps Baltar knows who the final is ?

I do think Citizen Kane was the film that should have won the Oscar though.

Well, history is the final judge, not the Oscars. And history says Orson Welles totally rocks. No generation can judge its own history. The Oscars are just a bigger example of that fact.

Its a good thing LOST is coming back because somehow this thread has been infected with the stuff that prevailed in 28 Days Later. Hmm. Actually that may not be fair to the denizens of 28 Days Later. Its more like someone's dumped an alien variation of purple microdot in this thread's water supply.

Could be worse... it could be whatever caused the writers to make the ending to 28 Weeks Later.

If you recall, the "stuff" they were infected with was rage. I'm assuming this type of rage infection was similar to the one Homer suffered from the episode where he developed welts on his neck holding his rage in.

So, I guess the BSG thread is officially the rage infected monkey thread.

To all the rage infected monkeys:

I applaud your thoughtful discussions of the 1942 and 1999 Academy Awards. If rage infected monkeys can do this, I have little doubt that one day a rage infected monkey can be president. Oh, never mind. Been done; my bad.

I applaud your rage infected desire for Dr Troy's breastses, although I will offer I spent the ST:TNG years as young not-yet-man discovering a taste for redheads courtesy of Dana Delaney on China Beach. And, yes, Dana Delaney will be my lone grasp for BSGness in this post. She's still very yummy today.

I commend your efforts to further degrade Star Wars as fantasy whenever possible. Star Wars is a heroic myth tale, and as such could have easily been a western or a samaurai movie.

Lastly, I wish to award you all with a piece of flesh to eat, as a reward for your efforts to continue pimping Firefly. If you read a discussion of social and emotion engineering into the movie Serenity, it's pretty frakkin sci-fi, gorammit.

Point being: the BSG thread should always be proudly off-topic.

Until Friday. Then you better shape the frak up.

So, who thinks there's enough material in a single page of this thread for about a half season of The Big Bang Theory?

(Was that all off-topic enough?)

Thanks Palladin. This is a cool place, I've rarely enjoyed reading posts this much.
We're in accord.


No ducking. :D

Well flashback to season 3, and recall that Baltar whispered something to Gaeta, and was almost killed as a result. Still wondering what was said ...

Perhaps Baltar knows who the final is ?

There is evidence for Gaeta though. Go back and watch when Boomer shoots Adama. Right before she does, it appears that Gaeta gives her look. Perhaps he "triggered" her.

I don't like Gaeta as the final Cylon just because it lacks dramatic impact. Clearly, they're going for a big reveal; otherwise they could've just unveiled all five at the same time. I don't like Dualla for the same reason...and she's even more boring than Gaeta.

Plus, it would've had to be somebody that was not on the ship (or otherwise indisposed) when Watchtower was playing. It could even be someone who's "dead".......Zack Adama?

Plus, it would've had to be somebody that was not on the ship (or otherwise indisposed) when Watchtower was playing. It could even be someone who's "dead".......Zack Adama?

According to the Hybrid in Razor :"And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."

Now, when did Tigh say "Jesus Christ?" I checked the last 3 episodes on my hard drive, but haven't found it.:cool:

I don't like Gaeta as the final Cylon just because it lacks dramatic impact. Clearly, they're going for a big reveal; otherwise they could've just unveiled all five at the same time. I don't like Dualla for the same reason...and she's even more boring than Gaeta.

Plus, it would've had to be somebody that was not on the ship (or otherwise indisposed) when Watchtower was playing. It could even be someone who's "dead".......Zack Adama?

I don't buy the boring argument because in my book, Tigh, the Chief, Anders, and the Indian chick were a weak 4 of the final 5. Only makes sense that weak group is rounded by Gaeta.

At least there is evidence it could be Gaeta (as I said, the look given to Boomer just before Boomer shot Adama). There hasn't been much of anything to hang your hat with as far as anyone else goes.

Now, when did Tigh say "Jesus Christ?" I checked the last 3 episodes on my hard drive, but haven't found it.:cool:

My bad........it wasn't in a recent episode, it was actually in the miniseries, which I recently watched. Must've got it twisted.

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Continuity_errors_(RDM) Scroll down to "dialogue errors"

My bad........it wasn't in a recent episode, it was actually in the miniseries, which I recently watched. Must've got it twisted.

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Continuity_errors_(RDM) Scroll down to "dialogue errors"

Haha. I'm gonna have to go look for that stuff now. It's amazing what you can overlook, simply because you're used to it.

I don't buy the boring argument

But see, the difference is this: There was no huge buildup to the reveal of the Four. The fact that they were revealed in the way they were was all the dramatic impact that was needed.

But this time around, they're hyping it. The "One will be revealed" tagline in the opening credits, the other Four's search, and so on. Don't you think the writing staff would have more pride than to hype up the final reveal for a year and then have it be somebody like Dualla?

Also, one of the producers made a comment a while back, and I wish I could find it now, but it was something to the effect of "The final Cylon unveiling will be very dramatic and will much of the elements that don't make sense to suddenly "click into place" for the viewer.

That's paraphrased of course, and I can't seem to find the exact quote now, so take it with a grain of salt if you're so inclined.

We may be focusing too much on there only being 12 skinjob models.

I happened across one of those interview catchup episodes that was aired at the beginning of the season (cleaning off a DVR) and what they said was that there 12 skin job models "as far as we know". Seems strange that they wouldn't have just said that there were 12 skin job models without making it sound like there may be more that we don't know about.

You have a very strange definition of fact. Fact is that Moore said they only decided on the Final 5 just before that episode. Moore has also said that attention to details and consistency is not important to him. Your mileage may vary.

You mentioned LOST where from the beginning the writers had a plan. LOST afficianados can consistently see the seeds of later revelations sewn in earlier episodes. A well planned storyline, of course modified by creative insight as it evolves. It doesn't have to be rigid, just consistent.

What are you talking about, in that regard both series are doing the same thing!

Ben wasn't supposed to be a recurring character, now he is. Some of the "tailies" were originally going to be on the show longer, they wanted to do other things, now they're gone. Jack was orginally going to die early in the first season, now he's the hero model. Etc, etc.

Moore has always had a direction where he wants to take the show and how it needs to end, the details of getting there are flexible. Please, go back to past seasons and you can find plenty of setup in BSG for things that happen much later.

Hmm, I wonder if we'll see the surviving 6's and 8's (and Leobens?) and their Basestars limping away, then somehow trying to work to join on the human side.

....I agree as I suggested earlier -- a sort of Cylon/Human "utopia"...;)

At least there is evidence it could be Gaeta (as I said, the look given to Boomer just before Boomer shot Adama). There hasn't been much of anything to hang your hat with as far as anyone else goes.

There have been a couple of instances with Dualla, the chief one being that she was mysteriously spared when the super-Cylon boarding team was rampaging thru the ship a couple of seasons back. They found her in semi-shock sitting on the floor after the Cylons had passed through that compartment killing everyone they came across. Except her. ;)

I've been saying for a year now that Zarek is the final Cylon. No reason to change my mind. He hungers for redemption, too. And I think that reveal would be more satisfying than Dee or Gaeta, although I understand the arguments for them as well.

I've been saying for a year now that Zarek is the final Cylon. No reason to change my mind. He hungers for redemption, too. And I think that reveal would be more satisfying than Dee or Gaeta, although I understand the arguments for them as well.

A good guess and one I certainly wouldn't be surprised by. I'd be willing to bet a years' supply of tylium it's one of those three, however.

Thanks Palladin. This is a cool place, I've rarely enjoyed reading posts this much.
We're in accord.


No ducking. :D

Crap...even the Cylon/Human beginning to "understand/tolerate" each other rubbed off on you two!!!! :eek:

A good guess and one I certainly wouldn't be surprised by. I'd be willing to bet a years' supply of tylium it's one of those three, however.

I was going to bet cubits, but you're right - tylium is far more valuable at this point! :D

I think the choice of the 4 actually make a bit of sense, particularly if you accept there is a type of "destiny" or precognition involved in their placement.

Tigh is second to Adama
Indian chick is second to the President
Anders is "second" to Starbuck
Tyrol is "second" to the Galactica itself.

So the final 4 are in unique places to influence or at least monitor almost everything that happens in relation to the human surviviors. By this logic, the doc would be a good choice, or whoever acts as a "second" to Baltar (Gaeta?) as it seems he has a strong impact on the humans survival as well.

Anyway, it is hard to figure out the final 5 as we don't really know what the cylons are after in the first place. I'm not sure THEY even know. Seems more and more like they are just following a script or some directives handed to them without total comprehension. There have been plenty of times where they could have wiped out the fleet, or at least a large fraction of the human survivors if that was their goal. Yet if they wish to convert the "heathen" humans to the one true god, they do a poor job of being missionaries. If they want to find Earth to totally exterminate humanity, then they makes little sense as many cylons wish to be more human themselves, so what is the point?

I still think the cylons are supposed to be a stressor for the humans. Much like the Jews trek from Egyptian slavery into the desert, whoever is motivating the cylons is trying to drive the humans to some goal, presumably Earth and a new divine existance.

Of course maybe we will have a final fight between the Cylon god and Zeus :P

I think the choice of the 4 actually make a bit of sense, particularly if you accept there is a type of "destiny" or precognition involved in their placement.

Tigh is second to Adama
Indian chick is second to the President
Anders is "second" to Starbuck
Tyrol is "second" to the Galactica itself.

So the final 4 are in unique places to influence or at least monitor almost everything that happens in relation to the human surviviors. By this logic, the doc would be a good choice, or whoever acts as a "second" to Baltar (Gaeta?) as it seems he has a strong impact on the humans survival as well.

Anyway, it is hard to figure out the final 5 as we don't really know what the cylons are after in the first place. I'm not sure THEY even know. Seems more and more like they are just following a script or some directives handed to them without total comprehension. There have been plenty of times where they could have wiped out the fleet, or at least a large fraction of the human survivors if that was their goal. Yet if they wish to convert the "heathen" humans to the one true god, they do a poor job of being missionaries. If they want to find Earth to totally exterminate humanity, then they makes little sense as many cylons wish to be more human themselves, so what is the point?

I still think the cylons are supposed to be a stressor for the humans. Much like the Jews trek from Egyptian slavery into the desert, whoever is motivating the cylons is trying to drive the humans to some goal, presumably Earth and a new divine existance.

Of course maybe we will have a final fight between the Cylon god and Zeus :P

Well put.

I don't buy the boring argument because in my book, Tigh, the Chief, Anders, and the Indian chick were a weak 4 of the final 5.


Tigh is second to Adama
Indian chick is second to the President
Anders is "second" to Starbuck
Tyrol is "second" to the Galactica itself.

FYI and FTR, the "Indian Chick" is named Tory. Let's try to keep up here. ;)

Well, history is the final judge, not the Oscars. And history says Orson Welles totally rocks.

In that particular case, history is correct. Of course, it didn't exactly hurt having Gregg Toland, Robert Wise and Bernard Herrman, on board, either.

So, I guess the BSG thread is officially the rage infected monkey thread.
Could be. Then again, how do we know you didn't choke on a hairball and spread some 'cat scratch fever' around ?

Point being: the BSG thread should always be proudly off-topic.
Until Friday. Then you better shape the frak up.

Actually, I've generally found it to be the contrary over the course of time. Usually the posts are directed to the preceding episode during the following couple of days, followed by speculation concerning the future and/or next episode, and once we reach approximately wed/thurs, almost all of the posts have gone off-topic.

SO DON'T SCREW AROUND WITH TRADITION!! :mad:

And as a reward, we've left some kibbles and bits and a squeaky toy for you in the corner of this chat room. Bon appetit. :p

_____________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

FYI and FTR, the "Indian Chick" is named Tory. Let's try to keep up here. ;)
Uh-Oh. I see where this is going. By lunch time we're going to have a whole spate of posts arguing about whether she's Indian, Pakistani, Native American, or (fill-in blank). This, of course, will be followed by observations about the correct spelling of Tori(y) and how it only came into existence because some hot-looking Victorias didn't want to get saddled with being called 'Vicki' for the rest of their existence; and then completed by some kind of reference to Aaron Spelling and his kin.

Waitress, check please ;) :D

__________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Uh-Oh. I see where this is going. By lunch time we're going to have a whole spate of posts arguing about whether she's Indian, Pakistani, Native American, or (fill-in blank).

Who the hell cares, shes hot!



As for the final cylon, It' tough, but it's apparent it will either be a major character, or one who returns from the dead.

And as a reward, we've left some kibbles and bits and a squeaky toy for you in the corner of this chat room. Bon appetit. :p

It should be noted you did indulge the OT discussion about Citizen Kane :eek:

I've been saying for a year now that Zarek is the final Cylon. No reason to change my mind. He hungers for redemption, too. And I think that reveal would be more satisfying than Dee or Gaeta, although I understand the arguments for them as well.

There aren't that many characters left who would be really surprising.

Let's be honest: they're not gonna top Tigh being a Cylon. Tigh was the very single, absolute, last person who you would have thought. Except for the episode where he overpowers Bulldog (which I thought was weird at the time, but now makes total sense) there isn't much evidence leading up to Tigh being one.

You gotta figure the final Cylon has to be a big reveal. Tory and Anders were pretty weak, but set alongside the Chief and Tigh, and also done so suddenly, that was a good reveal. But, if the final Cylon is another Tory caliber character... well, screw that!! That would be disappointing as hell.

Zarek is probably the low-end of reveals that would be worthwhile. I could live with that, but I would never think it was as shocking as Tigh.

It should be noted you did indulge the OT discussion about Citizen Kane :eek:
Actually, no. I was too busy to get to the forum until late in the evening, and by that time, all the off-topic flotsam and jetson had preceded me. But since I was responding to your post anyway, I felt obliged to see that the many people who deserved credit for that masterpiece were acknowledged.
Let's be honest: they're not gonna top Tigh being a Cylon. Tigh was the very single, absolute, last person who you would have thought.
Yup, that was probably the primo shocker for the series so far.
There aren't that many characters left who would be really surprising.
I disagree. Sticking primarily with those who are supposed to be human, there are probably at least a handful that could prove surprising.

Zarek is probably the low-end of reveals that would be worthwhile. I could live with that, but I would never think it was as shocking as Tigh.
Again I'd disagree. The only 'value' that Zarek could offer is the irony of being Apollo in the original cast. Zarek has essentially been a 'bad guy' for the majority of the series, including a conspiracy to murder another character. One of the bad guys then turning out to be the bad guy, really doesn't qualify as any real kind of surprise, does it? :(

_____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Again I'd disagree. The only 'value' that Zarek could offer is the irony of being Apollo in the original cast. Zarek has essentially been a 'bad guy' for the majority of the series, including a conspiracy to murder another character. One of the bad guys then turning out to be the bad guy, really doesn't qualify as any real kind of surprise, does it? :(

I could do without it being Zarek, that's for sure.

Zarek seems to mostly be the writers' tool for when they need to turn some political dealing into a little more intrigue. Kind of a throwaway character when you get right down to it. The writers just never felt an urge to do much with him.

I think Bill Adama would be interesting considering it was already pitched by Leoben. Also, it would be interesting because that would make Lee a hybrid, and it would, by way of the Valkyrie storyline, make the Cylons the cause of their own war.

BTW, does anyone with any spoiler knowledge have any idea whether they're ever going to tie some of the loose ends from Razor into S4?

I remember reading during the off-season that they did intend to pull all of that back into the plot. So far, besides the comments about Starbuck, there really isn't much to tie the two together.

For the record, I'm not saying I want it to be Gaeta but right after the Season 1 finale all the BSG boards were crazy with people insisting Gaeta was a Cylon because of a look given to Boomer right before she shot Adama.

What I want is for it to turn out that Anders and Tory are NOT Cylons, and replaced in the Cylon world by more interesting characters.

I think Bill Adama would be interesting considering it was already pitched by Leoben. Also, it would be interesting because that would make Lee a hybrid, and it would, by way of the Valkyrie storyline, make the Cylons the cause of their own war.Again, RDM has stated that "the Final One" is none of the characters in that "Last Supper" photo, eliminating both Adamas, Baltar, Helo, Starbuck and Roslin.

Of course, the statement could have been a big misdirect :). "Oh, I'm sorry--did I say that it wasn't one of them? I misspoke. My bad."

It's already a big enough mystery as to how Tigh can be a Cylon, since he and Adama are contemporaries in the military, and Adama discovered evidence of seemingly early Cylon experiments with creating biological forms during his one and only mission in the first Cylon war. He was extremely young at the time and could well have met Tigh a year or two after that.

It's already a big enough mystery as to how Tigh can be a Cylon, since he and Adama are contemporaries in the military, and Adama discovered evidence of seemingly early Cylon experiments with creating biological forms during his one and only mission in the first Cylon war. He was extremely young at the time and could well have met Tigh a year or two after that.

Moore and Eick have stated that the Final Five are "fundamentally different" from other Cylons, which would give them some cover when issues such as Tigh's age are brought up. Where they're going with this is the subject of much idle speculation. ;)

Uh-Oh. I see where this is going. By lunch time we're going to have a whole spate of posts arguing about whether she's Indian, Pakistani, Native American, or (fill-in blank). This, of course, will be followed by observations about the correct spelling of Tori(y) and how it only came into existence because some hot-looking Victorias didn't want to get saddled with being called 'Vicki' for the rest of their existence; and then completed by some kind of reference to Aaron Spelling and his kin.

Waitress, check please ;) :D

I thought she was Caprican?

As for Razor, I thought the only loose end was the comment about Starbuck.

One of the reasons I believe the final Cylon is Zarek is because there's no one left that will be shocking. They can give up on that. Everyone and their mother right now seems to believe Roslin is the final Cylon. Adama would be surprising, I guess, but shocking? Nah. It's simply not going to be a big surprise.

And yeah, I think making the original Apollo a Cylon is something RDM and company would get a kick out of.

Zarek may not have been in many episodes, but he has always been a compelling character, one you can't quite figure out which side he's on. He's not a "bad guy", I don't think. He's simply straddled the line between good and bad - just like all the other characters have.

In the exciting series finale of Battlestar Galactica, Apollo (Richard Hatch) shakes Starbuck (Dirk Benedict) awake in his rack. Starbuck, a little dazed at first looks at Apollo as says, "No more late night ambrosia parties for me. You wouldn't believe the dream I had: I was a woman and a badass one at that.

Apollo stares at him for a moment, then says, "Well, I guess the shock of finding out that you are a Cylon was just too much for you." He then shoots him. Fade to black.

I realize that will never happen, but I just can't imagine who the revelation of the fifth Cylon could be that would be that shocking. The fact that so many people think they have it figured out because of the "clues" that have been dropped suggest to me that it probably isn't anyone already mentioned. In fact, if it does turn out to be any of the ones already mentioned, it would probably be anticlimactic.

Has there ever been much discussion regarding the Last Supper picture? The characters positions are interesting for a few reasons. Caprica 6, is positioned in the Jesus spot with the major characters surrounding her in similar positions to DaVinci's painting. However, in the painting the characters are in groups of three, the same as BSG, save Baltar and Lee. Is one of them Judas? Not sure if there are any connections to the roles of the BSG characters to their Christian counterparts in the painting. Perhaps someone just thought it was a cute idea.

One of the reasons I believe the final Cylon is Zarek is because there's no one left that will be shocking. They can give up on that. Everyone and their mother right now seems to believe Roslin is the final Cylon. Adama would be surprising, I guess, but shocking? Nah. It's simply not going to be a big surprise.
:confused:Why would Zarek be more shocking than say, Adama, Lee, Doc Cottle, etc.??

And yeah, I think making the original Apollo a Cylon is something RDM and company would get a kick out of.
I can't believe that they have put so much effort into this series, to sacrifice its credibility like that for a slight in-joke. Remember, most viewers have never seen the crap that was known as BSG 30-40 years ago .

Zarek may not have been in many episodes, but he has always been a compelling character, one you can't quite figure out which side he's on. He's not a "bad guy", I don't think. He's simply straddled the line between good and bad - just like all the other characters have.
Okay, you're doing a better job of getting me on board with this concept. I don't think he was originally intended to be quite the three dimensional character you're trying to describe. I mean, he did conspire in the attempt to ambush Lee, although he ultimately did not follow through, for any variety of reasons. But yes, he may very well be the most ambiguous (and therefore potentially most realistic) character on the show, due to his untiring self-interest. But conversely, I don't see him as being a shock, either.

____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Has there ever been much discussion regarding the Last Supper picture? The characters positions are interesting for a few reasons. Caprica 6, is positioned in the Jesus spot with the major characters surrounding her in similar positions to DaVinci's painting. However, in the painting the characters are in groups of three, the same as BSG, save Baltar and Lee. Is one of them Judas? Not sure if there are any connections to the roles of the BSG characters to their Christian counterparts in the painting. Perhaps someone just thought it was a cute idea.

I suspect that any similarities between placement of characters in BSG's "last supper" publicity shot and the actual painting are purely..... intentional.

I realize that will never happen, but I just can't imagine who the revelation of the fifth Cylon could be that would be that shocking. The fact that so many people think they have it figured out because of the "clues" that have been dropped suggest to me that it probably isn't anyone already mentioned. In fact, if it does turn out to be any of the ones already mentioned, it would probably be anticlimactic.
But the problem there is that pretty much EVERYONE HAS been mentioned. :rolleyes: Who got overlooked that you would consider a viable alternative?

_________________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I suspect that any similarities between placement of characters in BSG's "last supper" publicity shot and the actual painting are purely..... intentional.
I hope not that is not the case, as I enjoy his work, and would be gravely concerned that he might do permanent damage to his spine, during the process of bending that far over backwards. ;)

____________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Is one of them Judas? Not sure if there are any connections to the roles of the BSG characters to their Christian counterparts in the painting.

Lee is Judas. We have seen glimpses of this during the last episode and at the trial. As to how far they will take this analogy, your guess is as good as mine.

If Six is Jesus then Baltar should be Judas... he's the only one that could betray her, although she was betrayed by Cavil and killed almost her model, so now what?

But the problem there is that pretty much EVERYONE HAS been mentioned. :rolleyes: Who got overlooked that you would consider a viable alternative?

_________________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I think that's the problem I'm having. I agree that probably all the "viable" candidates have been mentioned. I've been following the points people have been making for "their" candidate, and most are making pretty good cases.

Problem is, what if the fifth Cylon is someone like Adama? Then the whole "he's shot, he could die, Lee is sad" looses the original impact. Roslin? So what if she died, she'd just resurrect. The scenes of Adama and her growing closer, and him falling for her and afraid of losing her to the cancer then fall flat.

Even if it were Baltar, that wouldn't be a surprise. It is still implausible for me that he survived the nuclear blast that destroyed his home and Six.

Having said all that, I'm still enjoying the ride and think this has been one of the best of a limited number of series I would call favorties. For the most part, great acting and fascinating plots involving what constitues the essence of being human, why do we desire to be what we want to destroy, and so forth.

As for the identity of the 5th Cylon, actually I'm not so much interested in the who as opposed to why that person (or machine, or man machine or machine man) is so pivotal.

I had a vision the final Cylon is "Adama" that's why the Three said she was sorry in the temple, sorry for sending Boomer to kill him.

This is why all the final Cylons are with the Humans, they're protectors to all humans, they have a mission and a plan. :confused:

I think that's the problem I'm having. I agree that probably all the "viable" candidates have been mentioned. I've been following the points people have been making for "their" candidate, and most are making pretty good cases.

Problem is, what if the fifth Cylon is someone like Adama? Then the whole "he's shot, he could die, Lee is sad" looses the original impact. Roslin? So what if she died, she'd just resurrect. The scenes of Adama and her growing closer, and him falling for her and afraid of losing her to the cancer then fall flat.

Even if it were Baltar, that wouldn't be a surprise. It is still implausible for me that he survived the nuclear blast that destroyed his home and Six.

Having said all that, I'm still enjoying the ride and think this has been one of the best of a limited number of series I would call favorties. For the most part, great acting and fascinating plots involving what constitues the essence of being human, why do we desire to be what we want to destroy, and so forth.

As for the identity of the 5th Cylon, actually I'm not so much interested in the who as opposed to why that person (or machine, or man machine or machine man) is so pivotal.

Maybe the final five don't resurrect (in response to your comment that if it is Roslin, then she'll just resurrect).

We still don't know the differences between regular Cylons and the final five, and we don't know why the Cylons are so hush-hush internally about them.

I agree, answers to those questions are far more interesting than debating over who is the final Cylon model.

Starbuck is the 5th, I'm booking it at 10-1 odds, my PayPal address is ....:D

:confused:Why would Zarek be more shocking than say, Adama, Lee, Doc Cottle, etc.??


I never said it would be shocking. In fact, what I said is that no one would be a shock at this point. Everyone has been considered a candidate.

We don't know Baltar's house was destroyed, just that the windows were blown in, with 6's body shielding him. She wanted him to survive and would know how strong the blast would hit the house from that distance from ground zero, I think she would have calculated that she could keep him from dying in the shockwave.

Starbuck is the 5th, I'm booking it at 10-1 odds, my PayPal address is ....:D

My man Keenan, you are kidding right? Just wanted to make sure since Moore said nobody in the Last Supper pic is the 5th, and Starbuck is in that pic.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2158/2177726792_7b0e59cfbd.jpg?v=0

We don't know Baltar's house was destroyed, just that the windows were blown in, with 6's body shielding him. She wanted him to survive and would know how strong the blast would hit the house from that distance from ground zero, I think she would have calculated that she could keep him from dying in the shockwave.

It was a nuclear blast, both of them would've been vaporized. There's no evidence anywhere in the series that a skinjob Cylon could survive that. In fact, ALL the evidence points to the skinjobs having the same physical weaknesses as any other human.

Both Six and Baltar died in that explosion. The Baltar we've known throughout the series is not the same person we saw in the miniseries prior to the nukes going off.

That much I'm positive of.

My man Keenan, you are kidding right? Just wanted to make sure since Moore said nobody in the Last Supper pic is the 5th, and Starbuck is in that pic.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2158/2177726792_7b0e59cfbd.jpg?v=0

Didn't Moore also say something to the effect that they can change things without having to make sense?

Starbuck is the 5th, I'm booking it at 10-1 odds, my PayPal address is ....:D
Hmm, real nice odds.

Actually, I think I'll wait until you post the odds on the Starbuck-Lee Exacta, and preferably before everyone else realizes they will be shuffling in the next evolutionary step of human/cylon hybrids, following the Chief-Callie and Boomer-Helo dry runs. ;)

_________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared min

And I think that Baltar did survive the blast. Isn't it conceivable that his house wasn't in the direct blast zone that would have vaporized everything, but merely was in the path of the shockwave that blew the windows out? I think we take that scene at face value. 6 died in the blast protecting him, and he survived.

I am not saying that it couldn't be possible that the Baltar we are saying is not the same as the one in the house, but my gut feeling is that it's not true.

OK - here's a question that has puzzled me for a while.

Wasn't Gina the 6 that was leading the rebellion against Cavil? IIRC, she died in the nuclear blast right before they colonized New Caprica. So I guess she downloaded and regenerated? Except that it took a year for the cylons to track down the humans on New Caprica because of the nuclear blast.

My impression is that Gina didn't resurrect (of course, she must have) because there were no resurrection ships close by. But if there were, and she did resurrect, then wouldn't she have been able to tell the other cylons where New Caprica was?

I just can't figure out (or have forgotten) how Gina got back in the mix.

^ Yeah, but think about it for a second.

Baltar appeared to die in a nuclear blast, but miraculously appears to have lived.....and has Six in his head, acting as a his "guide" and repeatedly telling him he has a "destiny".

Meanwhile, Starbuck appeared to have died when her ship exploded. But she, also, appears miraculously to have lived. And she has Leoben in her head, acting as her guide and telling her she has a "destiny".

I find it doubtful this is coincidental.

There's also the little RDM tidbit about Starbuck and Baltar having "similar natures".

OK - here's a question that has puzzled me for a while.

Wasn't Gina the 6 that was leading the rebellion against Cavil? IIRC, she died in the nuclear blast right before they colonized New Caprica. So I guess she downloaded and regenerated? Except that it took a year for the cylons to track down the humans on New Caprica because of the nuclear blast.

My impression is that Gina didn't resurrect (of course, she must have) because there were no resurrection ships close by. But if there were, and she did resurrect, then wouldn't she have been able to tell the other cylons where New Caprica was?

I just can't figure out (or have forgotten) how Gina got back in the mix.

That's not Gina, it's a new one named "Natalie". She does look remarkably similar though.

I don't see any way Gina could have resurrected.

They were miles from the impact, we never saw the house again so we have no idea how much damage it did where they were. And wasn't he wearing the same clothes? How'd they know what outfit he'd put on. I'm not saying he wasn't killed, I'm saying we don't KNOW that he was - it's just assumptions and speculation either way.

Moore and Eick have stated that the Final Five are "fundamentally different" from other Cylons, which would give them some cover when issues such as Tigh's age are brought up. Where they're going with this is the subject of much idle speculation. ;)

Honestly, I hope they don't even try to explain Tigh's Cylon nature. If they do it will end up being the BSG version of midichlorians. I can't imagine a detailed answer that would be superior to "because".

What do you think of the final five being some sort of original hybrids. Which would explain them being around for so long and even appearing to be born to their supposedly human families.

Honestly, I hope they don't even try to explain Tigh's Cylon nature. If they do it will end up being the BSG version of midichlorians. I can't imagine a detailed answer that would be superior to "because".

Well, that's why you're not on Ron Moore's writing staff, I guess. ;)

I had a vision the final Cylon is "Adama" that's why the Three said she was sorry in the temple, sorry for sending Boomer to kill him.

This is why all the final Cylons are with the Humans, they're protectors to all humans, they have a mission and a plan. :confused:

Succinct....but I like it!!! Hmmmmmm.....:confused:

I just rewatched the Razor episode yesterday.

In the scene where young Adama crash lands into the lab and saw the human experiments and partially opened the door where the humans were being held captive, I think I saw some of the now known skinjobs.

One of them looked a lot like a distorted face Colonel Tigh. There was also a blond (probably 6) and Leoban.

They were miles from the impact, we never saw the house again so we have no idea how much damage it did where they were. And wasn't he wearing the same clothes? How'd they know what outfit he'd put on. I'm not saying he wasn't killed, I'm saying we don't KNOW that he was - it's just assumptions and speculation either way.

He wasn't wearing the same clothes. Before the blast he was wearing a robe, if you'll remember he had just gotten out of bed. the next time we see him, he's running through the field towards Helo and Boomer.

I just don't see any way he could possibly be alive. Are we really supposed to believe that Six (who can't weigh more than 90 pounds) protected him from the blast with her chicken legs?

You are right in that there's no proof either way but given his "destiny" and so on it makes a whole lot more sense if he is merely a copy of the original Baltar, as a vessel for the "one true God" or whatever.

I just don't see any way he could possibly be alive. Are we really supposed to believe that Six (who can't weigh more than 90 pounds) protected him from the blast with her chicken legs?


The blast effects would degrade by the square of the distance from the explosion (I think, if I remember my high school physics correctly), so it's entirely possible, depending on how far away the blast was, that the shock wave was strong enough to blow out the windows, but weak enough by that time to leave the rest of the house standing - and he ducked down beneath the height of the solid deck railing, which would have given him some protection as well. It's entirely conceivable that Baltar could have survived depending on how far removed he was from the blast.

Of one thing I am certain: Baltar is no Cylon (and neither is either Adama). Take it to the bank. ;)

Ah, I thought he got dressed after getting out of the bed. I need to pick up season three and watch the whole series for a third time. Baltar or Starbuck being the Cylon are the most obvious choices, based on the things that don't quite add up (Baltar surviving and Kara returning) but I'm just going to enjoy the ride.

I'm still reeling from the last ep, I'm going to watch that one again too.

Terrific BSG recap and analysis here... LONG

http://www.salon.com/ent/tv/feature/2008/04/02/bsg_explainer/index.html

Those of you extremely spoiler averse (really speculation & spoiler hints) might want to skip page 5

If the final five are supposed to be protecting the humans, they are doing a pretty lousy job!

Your "criticism" seems to be based in the idea that the writers haven't planned far enough ahead to satisfy your whims. This is not constructive criticism, it's just speculative bashing.

Again, all I'm saying is that if it bothers you that much, just stop watching. "Lost" started getting on my nerves after a while, so I simply stopped watching it. Life's too short to let yourself get so agitated over these things.

And again, no television writer has everything mapped out. Those that tell you they do are lying through their teeth.

And since you want to get personal: Yes, I have read many of your posts, and it's always the same old thing. Your act is getting old, and frankly, you come off as a grade A jerk.


No, it is precisely constructive criticism. I provided contrasting examples. Remember, it was YOU who responded in tone to me, not the other way around. You just don't agree with my contrasting examples of series foreplanning, which is fine, but unfortunately you let it get your big girl panties all atwist into some sorta Big Angry thing.

No, it is precisely constructive criticism. I provided contrasting examples. Remember, it was YOU who responded in tone to me, not the other way around. You just don't agree with my contrasting examples of series foreplanning, which is fine, but unfortunately you let it get your big girl panties all atwist into some sorta Big Angry thing.

His point is that you are presupposing a lack of "planning" in BSG that is a subjective opinion lacking any factual support. In fact, a careful viewer can find a number of major plot points as well as supporting details that are revisited even seasons later demonstrating the foresight shown by the showrunner and his staff. They can and do change minor details as they go along as they must, but the overall strategic vision was in place here from the beginning, as it was with LOST. There's a reason these are the two best shows currently running on TV, IMO, and it starts in the Writing Rooms. They have a Plan; oh yes they do.

Starbuck is the 5th, I'm booking it at 10-1 odds, my PayPal address is ....:D

You can put me down for 100 gold cubits.

If the final five are supposed to be protecting the humans, they are doing a pretty lousy job!

Again, if the final 5 are in some way special and above the rest of the Cylons (hence the reverence accorded to them by D'Anna in the temple, and hence the halo'd appearance as if they were some kind of demi-Gods), who/what "reactivated" them by playing that song?

I think the Final 5 are in some way 'benign', and not cylon-moles.

I just rewatched the Razor episode yesterday.

In the scene where young Adama crash lands into the lab and saw the human experiments and partially opened the door where the humans were being held captive, I think I saw some of the now known skinjobs.

One of them looked a lot like a distorted face Colonel Tigh. There was also a blond (probably 6) and Leoban.I just rewatched the relevant "webisodes" (as downloaded in HD from the "Shorts" section of the Xbox Live Video Store) and I think that you're wrong. In webisode 6. two living people are shown locked in a room that Adama attempts to free--the one who speaks is the actor Ben Cotton (who bears a minor resemblance in that scene to Callum Keith Rennie, the actor who plays Leoben Conoy). There's a woman who looks out from the bottom of the partially opened door; I can't find an acting credit for her, but it's not Six.

In webisode 5, you glimpse a couple of apparently dead people in cages, one of whom resembles the present day Tigh (he seems to have died with a horrible grimace on his face, on his knees, clutching the bars of the cage). Maybe the actors were chosen to suggest that they were archetypes for the eventual "skinjobs".

No, it is precisely constructive criticism. I provided contrasting examples. Remember, it was YOU who responded in tone to me, not the other way around. You just don't agree with my contrasting examples of series foreplanning, which is fine, but unfortunately you let it get your big girl panties all atwist into some sorta Big Angry thing.

Can you two take your cat fight to PM's? No one here wants to see you both puffing up your chests and having a slap fight!

:p

Of one thing I am certain: Baltar is no Cylon

Oh, I don't think he's a Cylon either. I think he's something else entirely.

No, it is precisely constructive criticism. I provided contrasting examples. Remember, it was YOU who responded in tone to me, not the other way around. You just don't agree with my contrasting examples of series foreplanning, which is fine, but unfortunately you let it get your big girl panties all atwist into some sorta Big Angry thing.

See, there you go again. "big girl panties" WTF is that? Are you 9 years old?

All I suggested is that you seem to have a major problem with the show (which is extremely apparent from the repetitive posts you make), then maybe you should stop watching it. I fail to see why that should be taken as an insult, but yet you feel the need to respond with derision and insults (AGAIN!!!), and then you pull out the whole "martyr" act.

...I think the Final 5 are in some way 'benign', and not cylon-moles.

Cally might have agreed, if she hadn't been, you know, like killed by one. :D

Can you two take your cat fight to PM's? No one here wants to see you both puffing up your chests and having a slap fight!
:p

Yeah, sorry. Next time I'll know better than to fall for this guy's little games.

His point is that you are presupposing a lack of "planning" in BSG that is a subjective opinion lacking any factual support. In fact, a careful viewer can find a number of major plot points as well as supporting details that are revisited even seasons later demonstrating the foresight shown by the showrunner and his staff. They can and do change minor details as they go along as they must, but the overall strategic vision was in place here from the beginning, as it was with LOST. There's a reason these are the two best shows currently running on TV, IMO, and it starts in the Writing Rooms. They have a Plan; oh yes they do.

Supporting what I'd said about 'plans'...

http://www.salon.com/ent/tv/feature/2008/04/02/bsg_explainer/index4.html

"As Moore explains in the season finale podcast, it was his idea to out four "Battlestar" characters as Cylons in the finale. Once that decision was made, he and the writers narrowed down contenders.

Ultimately, the four were chosen for their plausible back stories and dramatic impact: Anders survived for an extended period of time on Caprica under Cylon occupation; Tyrol had a long-standing love affair with a Cylon; and nobody knows anything about Tory -- besides her fondness for pantsuits -- making her history easy to fabricate.

As for Tigh, Moore admits that his will be the hardest back story to explain. Tigh has known Adama for decades, and fought in the original Cylon war. He's a drunk, hates the Cylons more than anything else and was a principal figure in the anti-Cylon insurgency.

Moore has made it clear that these four Cylons will be unlike those previously shown on the show. As he points out in his commentary, "They're a different kind of Cylon and ... these rules that we've painstakingly established for the other Cylons need not necessarily apply to [them]."


So, late in the series Moore suddenly decides who the Final 5 are which is what I'd said that somehow gets some folks all bent outa shape. Moore did it for dramatic reasons (his perogative) neglecting plot consistency and making previous episode revalations moot (my point). Then the writers are forced to come up with revisionist backstories; this revisionist move blows away any previous 'hints' at cylon attributes, glowing spines, et. al.

What I am attempting to say is that it is most often pointless to look at details in BSG episodes because they capriciously often mean little, as plot is subordiate to what seems cool to Moore et. al. when planning the next episode.

I don't want to take a BSG thread and make it a LOST thread but the two shows are contrasts at opposite extremes in terms of plans.

It could even be someone who's "dead".......Zack Adama?

Now that is a cool idea!

Cally might have agreed, if she hadn't been, you know, like killed by one. :D

Eh, I'd eject that whiny little beyotch myself even if I weren't a Cylon. Tory was 'benign' and ended my suffering of being unable to tolerate Cally lately.

All kidding aside, I think Cally had to be ejected for serving some greater purpose. Or else that whiny little.. err.. girl would have endangered the final five, and thereby sabotaged the greater good.

Can you two take your cat fight to PM's? No one here wants to see you both puffing up your chests and having a slap fight!

:p

+1

Cally might have agreed, if she hadn't been, you know, like killed by one. :D

Is that a problem? :D

Supporting what I'd said about 'plans'...

http://www.salon.com/ent/tv/feature/2008/04/02/bsg_explainer/index4.html

"As Moore explains in the season finale podcast, it was his idea to out four "Battlestar" characters as Cylons in the finale. Once that decision was made, he and the writers narrowed down contenders.

Ultimately, the four were chosen for their plausible back stories and dramatic impact: Anders survived for an extended period of time on Caprica under Cylon occupation; Tyrol had a long-standing love affair with a Cylon; and nobody knows anything about Tory -- besides her fondness for pantsuits -- making her history easy to fabricate.

As for Tigh, Moore admits that his will be the hardest back story to explain. Tigh has known Adama for decades, and fought in the original Cylon war. He's a drunk, hates the Cylons more than anything else and was a principal figure in the anti-Cylon insurgency.

Moore has made it clear that these four Cylons will be unlike those previously shown on the show. As he points out in his commentary, "They're a different kind of Cylon and ... these rules that we've painstakingly established for the other Cylons need not necessarily apply to [them]."


So, late in the series Moore suddenly decides who the Final 5 are which is what I'd said that somehow gets some folks all bent outa shape. Moore did it for dramatic reasons (his perogative) neglecting plot consistency and making previous episode revalations moot (my point). Then the writers are forced to come up with revisionist backstories; this revisionist move blows away any previous 'hints' at cylon attributes, glowing spines, et. al.

What I am attempting to say is that it is most often pointless to look at details in BSG episodes because they capriciously often mean little, as plot is subordiate to what seems cool to Moore et. al. when planning the next episode.

I don't want to take a BSG thread and make it a LOST thread but the two shows are contrasts at opposite extremes in terms of plans.

OK, at the risk of getting into another round of name-calling.......

Your assertion is that the writing staff hasn't fully mapped out all the details and prefers to write on the fly.

However, I'm not seeing what makes that an inherently "inferior" method of writing. If it does, then we'd better start reevaluating our opinions of people like Herman Melville and William Faulkner as literary giants.

So, late in the series Moore suddenly decides who the Final 5 are which is what I'd said that somehow gets some folks all bent outa shape. Moore did it for dramatic reasons (his perogative) neglecting plot consistency and making previous episode revalations moot (my point). Then the writers are forced to come up with revisionist backstories; this revisionist move blows away any previous 'hints' at cylon attributes, glowing spines, et. al.

What I am attempting to say is that it is most often pointless to look at details in BSG episodes because they capriciously often mean little, as plot is subordiate to what seems cool to Moore et. al. when planning the next episode.

I don't want to take a BSG thread and make it a LOST thread but the two shows are contrasts at opposite extremes in terms of plans.

If that's your contention, then it's EXACTLY like Lost, not the opposite at all.

So, late in the series Moore suddenly decides who the Final 5 are which is what I'd said that somehow gets some folks all bent outa shape. Moore did it for dramatic reasons (his perogative) neglecting plot consistency and making previous episode revalations moot (my point). Then the writers are forced to come up with revisionist backstories; this revisionist move blows away any previous 'hints' at cylon attributes, glowing spines, et. al.

What I am attempting to say is that it is most often pointless to look at details in BSG episodes because they capriciously often mean little, as plot is subordiate to what seems cool to Moore et. al. when planning the next episode.

I don't want to take a BSG thread and make it a LOST thread but the two shows are contrasts at opposite extremes in terms of plans.

You're still not "getting it", so I'm going to try once more... You're taking the fact that they didn't make the final decision on the Watchtower Four until recently as the basis for a much larger indictment on lack of strategic thinking by Ron Moore and his writers. It's not a valid complaint. Moore knew from the beginning where he was going to take this series (i.e. back to Earth). He probably knew he was going to reveal 7 Cylon models with 5 "sleepers" to form the basis for tying the plotlines together. Certainly, everything seems to be hanging together quite well thusfar. I and others have tried to point out the difficulty of writing for a weekly TV show where situations, budget, and even the availability of certain actors can change not only from year to year but from week to week! Details will and must change and evolve (and I consider the identities of the Watchtower Four to be a detail), whereas the concept of The Final Five, for example, is part of the strategic plan in place from the start. I've no doubt that if the young actor who played Billy had not had a shot at a pilot and left the show, he would be the Cylon currently known as Tory (who replaced him).

I don't see a single major plot point for BSG that has been changed because the writers wrote themselves into a corner. The whole glowing spine thing was kinda' silly to begin with since Cylons share human physiology and I know my wife's spine doesn't glow during sex (at least I don't think it does - better get more mirrors just to be sure!) Certainly, LOST is doing the exact same thing and has to endure the exact same complaint (not from you but from well-meaning folks like you). In summation (whew!), don't mistake the fluid nature of details with strategic planning, or lack thereof. Two different things.

If that's your contention, then it's EXACTLY like Lost, not the opposite at all.

^

I stopped watching Lost a couple years ago but my friends who still watch it are all starting to complain that the show has "lost its way" (no pun intended).

Cally might have agreed, if she hadn't been, you know, like killed by one. :DJust as she was about to, you know, kill herself and infant son :rolleyes:.

^

I stopped watching Lost a couple years ago but my friends who still watch it are all starting to complain that the show has "lost its way" (no pun intended).

None of my friends feel that way; most of them have been re-energized by this season's compelling storylines. If you only watch 2 hours of TV a week, one of 'em needs to be LOST. (And the other one needs to be the one we're talking about here.) ;) But then, I think well done serial shows are inherently superior to cop procedurals and reality fluff. They certainly struggle with maintaining an audience more than those others.

Is that a problem? :D

Apparently not for some people!

None of my friends feel that way; most of them have been re-energized by this season's compelling storylines. If you only watch 2 hours of TV a week, one of 'em needs to be LOST. (And the other one needs to be the one we're talking about here.) ;) But then, I think well done serial shows are inherently superior to cop procedurals and reality fluff. They certainly struggle with maintaining an audience more than those others.


Agreed, on all points.

It is too bad because a number of thought-provoking shows go by the wayside in favor of the "wrap it up in 60 minutes" ones or bizarre reality.

It's a wonder no one has attempted such radical crossovers like L&O:Deal or No Deal Unit or CSI:Americanidolville

None of my friends feel that way; most of them have been re-energized by this season's compelling storylines. If you only watch 2 hours of TV a week, one of 'em needs to be LOST. (And the other one needs to be the one we're talking about here.) ;) But then, I think well done serial shows are inherently superior to cop procedurals and reality fluff. They certainly struggle with maintaining an audience more than those others.

Just to be clear I wasn't trying to bash Lost. I know literally nothing about it other than there were some polar bears and some kind of a giant invisible monster.

It's a wonder no one has attempted such radical crossovers like L&O:Deal or No Deal Unit or CSI:Americanidolville

personally I'm holding out for "Law and Order: Bad Haircut Victims Unit"

I don't see a single major plot point for BSG that has been changed because the writers wrote themselves into a corner. The whole glowing spine thing was kinda' silly to begin with since Cylons share human physiology and I know my wife's spine doesn't glow during sex (at least I don't think it does)

Hmmm. Maybe you should bump her up to a halogen when she isn't looking, y'know, just to be sure. :D

_____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Does anybody here believe that COMCAST On Demand will begin to show the new season of BSG anytime soon? And if so, do you think the show will appear in HD via On Demand?

Hmmm. Maybe you should bump her up to a halogen when she isn't looking, y'know, just to be sure. :DOr use a mirror---oops!

Or use a mirror---oops!
Hey! I remember you now. You were in the team band and always slammed the cymbals together one beat too soon, right? :D

________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind