The American viewing public seems to have no patience for complex serialized shows like this one.
I am starting to wonder grade everybody is in. Maybe its video game thinking evolution...
Perhaps it the mindless Big Brother/Punked/Jackass generation starting to influence the ratings??
Don't think it's just TV that's being dumbed down... have you guys seen the mind numbing theatrical releases in the past couple of years?

Though there have been requests from a few people people to "blow stuff up", I don't think that I, vfxproducer, MOREPOWER and others are asking for that. There have been a ton of essentially VFX-less episodes in the past that were marked "filler" that I enjoyed, but these are just dreck. Hell--there was a cool wrecked heavy Raider explosion in the previous episode and that didn't do anything to elevate beyond dreck. No amount of VFX peppered into that crap would have made it any more tolerable.

And don't get all condescending about who "understands" this program and who doesn't. I've watched the whole kit-and-kaboodle from the beginning: mini-series, every episode, every special, every webisode, read some of the blogs, several magazine interviews and listened to some of the podcasts, and I still think that the last two episodes were boring, depressing dreck based on actions by the characters that made no sense whatsoever, even considering their desperation. It was just plain bad television--I'm happy that you and others enjoyed it but that's on you.

It's ridiculous to classify those episodes as "dreck". That's simply hyperbole of the worst sort. If you actually believe that, then I'm sorry, you just don't "get" the show and it's not "condescending" to say that. I don't have a problem with pointing out weak points in an episode here or there, I do it myself and welcome insightful comments along those lines, but to call them "dreck"? Tune into nearly anything else on the tube if you want to see the very definition of that word. There was much in those episodes to appreciate and savor, and which are propelling the plot forward to the conclusion. Every episode now is doing that; there will be no more "filler"; they simply don't have time. I'm sorry you apparently missed it all, but don't get mad at me and others for saying that. Not our fault; perhaps you just need to watch them again. ;)

It's ridiculous to classify those episodes as "dreck". That's simply hyperbole of the worst sort. If you actually believe that, then I'm sorry, you just don't "get" the show and it's not "condescending" to say that. I don't have a problem with pointing out weak points in the episode here or there, I do it myself, but to call them "dreck"? Tune into nearly anything else on the tube if you want to see the very definition of that word. There was much in those episodes to appreciate and savor, and which are propelling the plot forward to the conclusion. Every episode now is doing that; there will be no more "filler"; they simply don't have time. I'm sorry you apparently missed it all, but don't get mad at me and others for saying that. Not our fault; you just need to watch them again. ;)<Heavy sigh>.

First off, archiguy, settle down. I'm not the one whose getting mad, and I haven't expressed a single word of anger toward anything anyone else has said here--as I've already said, I'm happy that somebody's enjoying this junk. This is art (after a fashion :rolleyes:) and everyone's opinion of it doesn't have to agree with your own to be valid. I like to think of myself as an intelligent person: a retired software engineer who's an amateur artist/craftsperson, making pottery, photography and playing classical and jazz piano since childhood. I read fiction constantly (I used to write a lot when I was younger) and watch a lot of film. I know what I like and what I don't like and my opinion is an informed one. No amount of my watching those last two episodes over will make me agree with you (and I'd pay cash to avoid that, if pressed). And yes, telling people who don't like a piece of artwork that you enjoyed that they're "just not getting it" is condescending, period--I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.

Calling it "dreck" might be hyperbole, but I'm just summarizing what I've stated in detail over my last several posts. I watched these episodes as carefully as I watched every other episode and I get what they're doing--I just don't think that it makes any sense in the context of the characters as they've developed them and it saddens me to watch this devolve from something wonderful into a self-conflicting mess, that's boring on top of it in my opinion, which deserves no less respect than I give yours. I'll keep watching for the moment, but I've just about lost all expectation that this will end a fashion that I'll find satisfying, sensible or very interesting (though I'm still hoping that they'll surprise me). I think that this series had a great beginning, but it seems to be working its way towards a poor ending, which has happened many times before in the history of television, including some of the past work of the much hallowed Ronald D. Moore.

Again, we'll just have agree to disagree, but I'll thank you to avoid posting angry reactions to what I have to say, claiming that I don't know what I'm talking about and need to go back and watch until I agree with your "correct" opinion.

I still think a lot of the problem is that we have a week to sit around and think about and try to discuss events that happened in two episodes which were rather talky and a little slow moving. I happened to enjoy both episodes - but I am so captivated by the cast and the characters that I simply enjoy watching them, even if the story takes a turn I don't like. (I did not enjoy The Woman King or A Day in the Life last season, and in my opinion, these episodes do not in any way compare to those on the "dreck" scale. :) )

Is it possible that the show is not going according to some people's expecatations, in terms of story and plot? I know I'm not happy that Starbuck is a raving lunatic, but I'm accepting that is the story they want to tell at this point.

Anyway, I guess what I'm suggesting is that we might just have to exercise more patience than normal this year. We're all tired of the extreme hiatus we just had to endure. Now, each episode is just a piece of the puzzle in a long continuous story with no real resolution at the end of the episode. Some episodes are bound to be more exposition than action. Some fans will get frustrated because we want to hurry up and get there. I'm just along for the ride and am trying to enjoy every second I have left of it.

Again, we'll just have agree to disagree, but I'll thank you to avoid posting angry reactions to what I have to say, claiming that I don't know what I'm talking about and need to go back and watch until I agree with your "correct" opinion.

Hey, I'm not at all angry; just disappointed in that reaction and feel it's unjustified. We can agree to disagree; let's just try to hold the hyperbole in check. No way an episode from this series deserves the dreaded "dreck" tag; no how, no way.

I'm just along for the ride and am trying to enjoy every second I have left of it.

That summarizes it for me nicely. I remember the TV universe before this show and can predict what it will be like after - not as rich an experience. Complex long-form serial shows, especially those with this kind of depth and scope, are a dying breed, folks. Some of us, at least, are going to miss them when they're gone. Hell, I might have to go back to reading novels. :eek: ;)

I'm just along for the ride and am trying to enjoy every second I have left of it.

+1 Yup.

Is it possible that the show is not going according to some people's expecatations, in terms of story and plot? I know I'm not happy that Starbuck is a raving lunatic, but I'm accepting that is the story they want to tell at this point.It doesn't bother me that Starbuck's become a raving lunatic--it bothers me that Adama would take the raving lunatic out of the brig and give her a ship--even a garbage recycler--four Vipers, a Raptor and a brace of his most experienced and valuable bridge officers and fighter pilots and send her out on a mission with her in command. For me, that entire plot line become BS, because there's no way to make sense of the premise. There should be no "Mutiny on the Demetrius" because the Demetrius shouldn't be under Starbuck's command (arguably, it shouldn't be out there at all, but I'm willing to let that pass :)). Not one of the others on board is in favor of her choosen course of action, because it's quite predictably insane. What would one expect of someone who comes back to life with no memory of the past several weeks since her ship was observed at close range to explode many light-years back in your journey, claiming to have been to Earth but not knowing how she got there or how she got back, piloting a brand-new fighter craft, babbling about how you've just got to ignore all of that and follow her, bringing the last precious remnants of humanity with you :rolleyes:?

When the plot starts to make goofy, inexplicable turns like this, everything kind of sours for me. I'm fully expecting them to explain all of it using supernatural, deus ex machina BS like a "reimagining" of the Beings of Light/Ships of Light from the original series.

archiguy, sorry that you disapprove of my use of the word "dreck", but it describes how I felt about those episodes pretty well. I finished the last and sat in numb silence thinking, "Will someone just shoot me now?" If you disagree, I don't think that you get it and need to go back and rewatch the episodes until you feel the same way :D.

See, I feel Adama's actions vis a vis Starbuck are entirely consistent with how he's felt about and dealt with her over the years. He knows she's a loose cannon, but at times that's been a fleetsaving attribute; might be again as well. And we can't forget that he's desperate to find Earth if it even exists; they all are. For all he knows, she might be right, and he's willing to take the chance with an "expendable" ship. And including so many of his top officers was more a need the writers have to keep those characters involved; I'll cut them some slack there. Anyway, in Adama's mind, the ends justify the means; their back is really against the wall now and he's not going to leave any stone unturned. Makes perfect sense to me.

And at the very least, Mike, the show still has the ability to inspire passionate reactions in its fans, right? Can't really say that about NCIS or '...5th Grader' now, can we? ;)

It doesn't bother me that Starbuck's become a raving lunatic--it bothers me that Adama would take the raving lunatic out of the brig and give her a ship--even a garbage recycler--four Vipers, a Raptor and a brace of his most experienced and valuable bridge officers and fighter pilots and send her out on a mission with her in command. For me, that entire plot line become BS, because there's no way to make sense of the premise. There should be no "Mutiny on the Demetrius" because the Demetrius shouldn't be under Starbuck's command (arguably, it shouldn't be out there at all, but I'm willing to let that pass :)). Not one of the others on board is in favor of her choosen course of action, because it's quite predictably insane. What would one expect of someone who comes back to life with no memory of the past several weeks since her ship was observed at close range to explode many light-years back in your journey, claiming to have been to Earth but not knowing how she got there or how she got back, piloting a brand-new fighter craft, babbling about how you've just got to ignore all of that and follow her, bringing the last precious remnants of humanity with you :rolleyes:?

When the plot starts to make goofy, inexplicable turns like this, everything kind of sours for me. I'm fully expecting them to explain all of it using supernatural, deus ex machina BS like a "reimagining" of the Beings of Light/Ships of Light from the original series.

archiguy, sorry that you disapprove of my use of the word "dreck", but it describes how I felt about those episodes pretty well. I finished the last and sat in numb silence thinking, "Will someone just shoot me now?" If you disagree, I don't think that you get it and need to go back and rewatch the episodes until you feel the same way :D.

I get it. I do. I can explain it all away fairly easily, though, by trying to put myself in the characters' positions. Starbuck truly believes she's been to earth, and she's crazy. So, it makes sense that she doesn't understand the suspicion surrounding her. Adama loves her like a daughter, always has. Of course, he's going to give her a chance to prove herself right. It would feel wrong to me if he didn't. From his perspective, it's the safest choice - send her out with an expendable ship and a good crew which can be trusted to keep her in check.

I do agree that he shouldn't have sent an all-star crew with her. But I think we may find out there's a reason that most of those people are there. Is it a little too convenient? Maybe, but I'm willing to give them that one.

Along those lines, I keep wondering why Sharon is there. I think she's on that crew because she needs to be there if/when they get to that basestar.

ETA: I see archiguy beat me to some of my points. Sorry, didn't mean to be repetitive.

And don't get all condescending about who "understands" this program and who doesn't. I've watched the whole kit-and-kaboodle from the beginning: mini-series, every episode, every special, every webisode, read some of the blogs, several magazine interviews and listened to some of the podcasts, and I still think that the last two episodes were boring, depressing dreck based on actions by the characters that made no sense whatsoever, even considering their desperation. It was just plain bad television--I'm happy that you and others enjoyed it but that's on you.

I have to agree...I love the show too and enjoy the character development but a boring ep is a boring ep. I know they have to move their chess pieces around to setup the finale, but I didn't find the storylines particularly gripping. (Except for Tyrol nearly STRANGLING Baltar of course :-)

Just because I find the ep boring doesn't mean I'm an impatient weaned on video-games/pavlovian dog who can't appreciate good drama. Sometimes the writers misfire. Perhaps we'll see the last 10 eps and say "oh...NOW I see why Tyrol and Baltar had to make nice"...or perhaps not. I still trust the writers/producers but that doesn't mean I have to rubber stamp everything they put out there.

:D And ABC is doing the same thing with their hit serialized show, LOST. Dragging it out over 3 years in that case. The producers claim it was their idea, but.....

It was...they asked the network for permission to set an end date so they could plot out the exact timeline. Otherwise it would get milked for as long as possible with no resolution.

I was happy to hear about the timeline of the show's end...it means we'll get SOME answers. :-)

It When the plot starts to make goofy, inexplicable turns like this, everything kind of sours for me. I'm fully expecting them to explain all of it using supernatural, deus ex machina BS like a "reimagining" of the Beings of Light/Ships of Light from the original series.

Just because I find the ep boring doesn't mean I'm an impatient weaned on video-games/pavlovian dog who can't appreciate good drama. Sometimes the writers misfire.

Exactly. Just because you aren't slavishly appreciative of every nugget uttered in an episode, doesn't make you an adolescent video-game junkie. There's nothing wrong with a little critical analysis when the writers take what appears to be a bad left turn. The Starbuck-in-command scenario defies logic to such a degree it makes it nearly impossible for me to suspend disbelief.

I love the show and I eagerly look forward to them getting on track, but if they don't demonstrate that there is some big plan that justifies the plot drift and poor logic soon, some elements (like Baltar's harem) are going to drift into the daytime soap realm.

Just had to weigh in on some of these points. I think we definitely have two sides to this issue, and from my perspective, both are right.

These episodes WERE slow - a bit plodding, there's no doubt about that. I still find it fascinating, though. And even if it doesn't stack up against the best BSG has ever offered, I was still into the episodes. Having said that, I am a little surprised that some are so vehement about their dislike. Unlike the Woman King and other epis from last season, at least these episodes fit the ultimate plot. As I understand it, the Woman King was a storyline that they began and ultimately abandoned, which is why it feels so out of place and has no bearing on what happens with the rest of the series.

So, I wouldn't call these filler. There WILL be some kind of payoff with Baltar as the savior, and obviously how each of the Watchtower cylons reacts to their situation is important to the endgame of the show.

Also, my enjoyment may be due to my expectation of where they are going with the storyline. To me, the story is not merely, will they or will they not reach earth. The better story is on the nature of humanity and "cylonness" and how these two entities intertwine to the ultimate destruction or salvation of the human race. The earth is merely a PLACE they are trying to get to. But the more pressing matter is where humanity ends up in terms of their existential natures.

Having said that, Baltar will ultimately factor in, as well as the Watchtower 4, as well as the final cylon, as well as the halfbreeds. Perhaps the epis are a little slow, and they might have done a better job with them, but I am fascinated with what they do with Baltar and how he gets there. (My wife can't stand what she calls the "Baltar crap.")

I do agree that this is a series that is MUCH better suited to watching on DVD. I didn't get into BSG until I happened to watch the season 1 finale rerun on Universal HD and was blown away. My wife and I immediately went out and got the DVDs from the beginning. There were a bunch of slow episodes mixed in, and when that happened, we merely said, "Let's put on the next show." Can't do that with live tv.

I've been enjoying the episodes from this season so far, of course I'd like more to happen in each episode but I realize with time constraints to tell something properly it takes longer than an individual episode will give. I find that when the end of the episode is nearing I'm not aware of how much time I've been watching and feel that there is plenty of time for more story in each ep, but in reality time's up and I'm left waiting for next week... I don't mind this, to me a hallmark of a good show is when it's over you don't even notice that 45 minutes passed.

Now to be fair, those calling the episodes dreck... lets just say that when stating opinion saying things like "this was simply bad tv" or "these episodes were dreck" well, a lot of folks will take offense to that a lot more often than "This was simply bad tv to me" and "I thought these episodes were dreck" amazing how simply making sure to state it as an opinion helps a lot with people not firing back at you personally for it.

It's obvious it's an opinion with or without the to-me's or the I-thought's, isn't it? I don't think the person you're referring to demeaned anyone who didn't agree with him, though.

Personally I love the show, and much of what others don't like I like very much simply because I like all of it. But I'm easy, and it is after all but a tv show, albeit a very good one. If I don't get something, I ask, because I'm trying to enjoy what I have been watching. I get the feeling, though, that if I didn't like the show, regardless of how my opinion was prefaced, I'd not be so well received.

I think vfx, for example, makes some valid points, some really good ones, actually, but for me I just don't care. I could nit pick, but it doesn't have to make perfect sense. I'm just glad the show exists, I'm glad I like it, and I'm happy to watch it regardless. There seems to be a fair amount of angst over how it will all end. I don't understand this concern because the show has thus far been so very good, and for the most part everyone here likes it very much. I'm going to just let it unfold, and it's going to be what it's going to be. Hopefully there will be another show like this someday.

to me a hallmark of a good show is when it's over you don't even notice that 45 minutes passed.

I notice this with BSG more often than any other show I can presently think of. (I'll think of a couple after I've posted :rolleyes: - well, maybe Veronica Mars and The Wire, for two and I never saw VM in any form other than DVD. Same with BSG before this season.)
It really is a surprise to me when the BSG episodes end so soon.

It doesn't bother me that Starbuck's become a raving lunatic--it bothers me that Adama would take the raving lunatic out of the brig and give her a ship--even a garbage recycler--four Vipers, a Raptor and a brace of his most experienced and valuable bridge officers and fighter pilots and send her out on a mission with her in command. For me, that entire plot line become BS, because there's no way to make sense of the premise. There should be no "Mutiny on the Demetrius" because the Demetrius shouldn't be under Starbuck's command

I think you've gravely missed how much Adama has changed since the mini-series, and also failed to realize just how connected Starbuck is to Adama and his family. After all, she is (was) his daughter in law.

Also, she almost did get sent out the airlock, and almost got shot in the head. Roslin’s taken over that role.

Adama know she's a wreck, even more so now that she might not be who she says she is, but he's always had her on a short leash.

I think you've gravely missed how much Adama has changed since the mini-series, and also failed to realize just how connected Starbuck is to Adama and his family. After all, she is (was) his daughter in law.

Also, she almost did get sent out the airlock, and almost got shot in the head. Roslin’s taken over that role.

Adama know she's a wreck, even more so now that she might not be who she says she is, but he's always had her on a short leash.There's nothing that I don't realize about his relationship with Starbuck (BTW, she was only engaged to Zak Adama, who died before she could marry him). However, if the woman that he released from the brig is the actual Kara Thrace, then they've witnessed a real and present walk-on-water, water-into-wine, loaves and fishes, raising of the dead miracle. Again, she was observed to be in a ship that exploded, dead and gone for several weeks to suddenly reappear, light-years away from where she apparently died in a spotless, fresh-off-the-factory-floor new ship with no memory of the time when she was missing, but with a crazed obsession with leading the fleet somewhere. It would be bad enough if they found her alive somewhere in their path, but reappearing in an impossible brand-new Colonial Viper is just way the hell too much. Never mind how she survived the explosion of the Viper she left in, but if we accept that she did, then someone created a new Viper, placed her in it and dropped her in their path, after holding onto her for several weeks. What's worse, it happened during a massive Cylon attack that really ought to have wiped them out, which mysteriously ended without cause. We know that the attack ended because the Raiders refused to continue after one of them scanned Anders, but they don't know that--for all they know it was part of a Cylon plan for returning Kara to them.

I'm sorry, but the only action that makes any sense would be for him to place "Starbuck" and her Viper-of-unknown-origin under heavy guard on a ship other than Galactica with extremely limited access to her and it granted to anyone until they have a full and sufficient explanation of where she and it came from and who was responsible for her return. It's impossible for me to believe that this man, having guardianship over the last remnants of humanity would risk everyone by letting her run around Galactica under light guard in the first place. I can understand him setting up a mission to find out where she's so driven to lead them to, but giving her command of that mission is just insane. It's a nonsensical plotline that difficult for me to enjoy.

My guess is that while many of us here really enjoy the show, the high note that season three left us with followed by the extremely long wait, has us wanting more immediately from this season. However you have to realize that they have to build it up, just because you have a long running story arc doesn't mean you can have one big cliffhanger high drama run of episodes that lasts all of season 4.

There's nothing that I don't realize about his relationship with Starbuck (BTW, she was only engaged to Zak Adama, who died before she could marry him). However, if the woman that he released from the brig is the actual Kara Thrace, then they've witnessed a real and present walk-on-water, water-into-wine, loaves and fishes, raising of the dead miracle. Again, she was observed to be in a ship that exploded, dead and gone for several weeks to suddenly reappear, light-years away from where she apparently died in a spotless, fresh-off-the-factory-floor new ship with no memory of the time when she was missing, but with a crazed obsession with leading the fleet somewhere. It would be bad enough if they found her alive somewhere in their path, but reappearing in an impossible brand-new Colonial Viper is just way the hell too much. Never mind how she survived the explosion of the Viper she left in, but if we accept that she did, then someone created a new Viper, placed her in it and dropped her in their path, after holding onto her for several weeks. What's worse, it happened during a massive Cylon attack that really ought to have wiped them out, which mysteriously ended without cause. We know that the attack ended because the Raiders refused to continue after one of them scanned Anders, but they don't know that--for all they know it was part of a Cylon plan for returning Kara to them.

They must somehow be intercepting re-runs of Lost because their lack of curiosity is amazing. Now, the Doc did examine Kara and proclaimed her to be human. Couldn't explain anything else, and by this time he probably knows what to look for in a Cylon. So, she's a human who survived a massive explosion and doesn't have a scratch on her.



I'm sorry, but the only action that makes any sense would be for him to place "Starbuck" and her Viper-of-unknown-origin under heavy guard on a ship other than Galactica with extremely limited access to her and it granted to anyone until they have a full and sufficient explanation of where she and it came from and who was responsible for her return. It's impossible for me to believe that this man, having guardianship over the last remnants of humanity would risk everyone by letting her run around Galactica under light guard in the first place. I can understand him setting up a mission to find out where she's so driven to lead them to, but giving her command of that mission is just insane. It's a nonsensical plotline that difficult for me to enjoy.

Adama is certainly acting out of character. This is the same commander who was willing to put Cally up against a bulkhead and shoot her....and now is letting the suspicious at best Kara tool around the universe with some of his best crewmembers. I don't understand....but I'm clearly invested enough in the series to give the writers the benefit of the doubt that they are going to tie all this together somehow that will make sense.

I really don't think we're going to get any more explanation for why Adama let her take a ship and go on a mission to find Earth. If you can't accept that he has let his feelings for her cloud his judgement, then I guess it's just one of those things you'll have to dislike about the show. But that's the explanation - Adama and Roslin even had a fairly brutal argument over that very thing.

He's done it before in Season One - he risked the fleet in a desperate search for her when she had crash landed on that planet and for all they knew had run out of air hours ago. Roslin had to step in then and make him realize the risk he was putting them in. This is entirely consistent behavior for him.

And I don't think it's fair to compare this to what he threatened to do to Cally. Adama loves all his people, but Cally was not in any way, shape, or form as close to him as Kara.

My guess is that while many of us here really enjoy the show, the high note that season three left us with followed by the extremely long wait, has us wanting more immediately from this season. However you have to realize that they have to build it up, just because you have a long running story arc doesn't mean you can have one big cliffhanger high drama run of episodes that lasts all of season 4.


My brother and I were discussing how slow BSG is moving along and figured that they've got to get 20 (maybe closer to 15 now) episodes out of the remaining plot line.

The truth be known, somebody like me should stop watching these weekly 1 hr episodes (slow water torture), get the DVD(s) at the end of the season and watch it over a short timeperiod.

There's nothing that I don't realize about his relationship with Starbuck (BTW, she was only engaged to Zak Adama, who died before she could marry him). However, if the woman that he released from the brig is the actual Kara Thrace, then they've witnessed a real and present walk-on-water, water-into-wine, loaves and fishes, raising of the dead miracle. Again, she was observed to be in a ship that exploded, dead and gone for several weeks to suddenly reappear, light-years away from where she apparently died in a spotless, fresh-off-the-factory-floor new ship with no memory of the time when she was missing, but with a crazed obsession with leading the fleet somewhere. It would be bad enough if they found her alive somewhere in their path, but reappearing in an impossible brand-new Colonial Viper is just way the hell too much. Never mind how she survived the explosion of the Viper she left in, but if we accept that she did, then someone created a new Viper, placed her in it and dropped her in their path, after holding onto her for several weeks. What's worse, it happened during a massive Cylon attack that really ought to have wiped them out, which mysteriously ended without cause. We know that the attack ended because the Raiders refused to continue after one of them scanned Anders, but they don't know that--for all they know it was part of a Cylon plan for returning Kara to them.

Guess you're just gonna have to keep tuning in to find out what happened to her like the rest of them :D

I really don't think we're going to get any more explanation for why Adama let her take a ship and go on a mission to find Earth. If you can't accept that he has let his feelings for her cloud his judgement, then I guess it's just one of those things you'll have to dislike about the show. But that's the explanation - Adama and Roslin even had a fairly brutal argument over that very thing.I don't care how Adama feels about the real Starbuck, he has no evidence that this is the real Starbuck. Until he gets some kind of explanation about how she disappeared while strapped in an exploding Viper and then reappeared several weeks later and several light-years away from where they watched her die, piloting a brand spankin' new fighter with no memory of where she'd been all that time, there's absolutely no way he should trust her. No matter whether she's been "certified human", she's obviously been interfered with and is acting in wild and erractic fashion, screaming in anguish every time they make a jump, attacking the President at gunpoint trying to force her to turn the fleet around. You don't take someone like this and give her command of a mission involving vital personnel and equipment (not just a "garbage scow", but four perfectly good Vipers and a Raptor). It wasn't necessary--he sent his best people along with her, a few of whom could easily have been given command. It's not just bad judgement--it's an insane move which turns the entire subplot into a cheap contrivance. There should be no dramatic "mutiny" because there was no necessity to put her in command and it's unbelievable that Adama would have done it. (Hell, just attacking the President of the Colonies should have instantly stripped her of command rank, if not made her ineligible to ever serve again).

I can understand him setting up a mission to find out where she's so driven to lead them to, but giving her command of that mission is just insane. It's a nonsensical plotline that difficult for me to enjoy.

I think he and Roslin are far more desperate than they let on. They've lost over 20,000 people in that last year and a half...the human race is down to a little over 30,000 people. I think Adama felt he needed to swing for the fences for a chance to find Earth. Because with those numbers the cylons only have to whittle down over time and they are done.

I agree...sending a team out was fine, but putting her in charge was very foolish.

I think he and Roslin are far more desperate than they let on. They've lost over 20,000 people in that last year and a half...the human race is down to a little over 30,000 people.Small nit--it's a few less than 40,000 people left. The number in the titles last week was 39,676. Since they started with 50,298, they've lost 10,622 over the 3-to-4 years they've been on the run. See the Survivor Count article (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Survivor_count) at Battlestar Wiki, which gives a nice graph of population over time.

The biggest loss was probably when Gina (the #6 repeatedly raped and tortured by the crew of Battlestar Pegasus) set off a nuclear warhead given to her by Baltar on Cloud Nine, which destroyed some nearby vessels as well. Between the beginning of that episode and the start of the new season, they lost 6150 people. Some of them were no doubt victims of insurrectionist activity on Cylon occupied New Caprica.

Small nit--it's a few less than 40,000 people left. The number in the titles last week was 39,676. Since they started with 50,298, they've lost 10,622 over the 3-to-4 years they've been on the run. See the Survivor Count article (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Survivor_count) at Battlestar Wiki, which gives a nice graph of population over time.

The biggest lost was probably when Gina (the #6 repeatedly raped and tortured by the crew of Battlestar Pegasus) set off a nuclear warhead (given to her by Baltar) on Cloud Nine, which destroyed some nearby vessels as well. Between the beginning of that episode and the start of the new season, they lost 6150 people. Some of them were no doubt victims of insurrectionist activity on Cylon occupied New Caprica.


My bad, I remembered the 30,000+ but not the exact count. Still, they've lost over 20% of the remaining population. I don't remember from school what the minimum # is to maintain the species without murdering the gene pool, but their numbers are dwindling way too fast.

michaeltscott,

It looks like no amount of talking is going to convince you that this isn't the most ridiculous plot contrivance in the history of BSG. I do not have such a problem with it. Adama's judgement is not real good when it comes to Kara Thrace. End of story.

I remember the conversation he had with Lee a few episodes ago. Lee asked, "what if it was Zak that got out of that Viper?" What if Zak was a Cylon? Would you love him any less, would you be any less ecstatic to see him? I think that conversation really affected Adama. I don't think he really cares if Kara's a Cylon. Or a miracle. He's just glad to have her back and he'll do anything to avoid losing her again, as Roslin said.

It's really just as simple as that. I agree it was stupid to give her command, but people do stupid things when their judgement is not quite right.

loco --

You're right--you and I are definitely not going to agree about that "Adama's judgement is not real good when it comes to Kara Thrace. End of story", is even close to being a reasonable explanation for his actions. I don't think that you rise through the ranks of your military service and become a fleet battleship commander if you're susceptible to making emotionally-driven decisions, and I'm unaware of any previous situation in which he's demonstrated any such tendency.

I'm curious, though--what would you nominate as having been a bigger BSG plot contrivance than giving command of a mission to a demonstrably insane woman, mysteriously returned to you after several weeks presumed dead with no memory of her absence, just after she commits an act of treason? She must have been in the custody some other group of people, who gave her a piece of equipment (the fighter) that she didn't leave with and returned her with her mind obviously addled. If not the Cylons (and we know that it wasn't them, though Adama has no evidence to rule them out), then who are they and what are their motives? They left her with no memory of her stay with them but with an insane and overridingly strong compulsion to lead the fleet somewhere. If whomsoever's motives for wanting the fleet whereever it is that they want it were pure, you'd think that they could have directly contacted them and invited them to come. It's reasonable to set up a mission to find out where it is that "whomsoever" is blatantly using Kara to lure them to, but I think that it would have been more reasonable for him to have given command of a such a mission to Boomer immediately after he recovered from having been shot by her :rolleyes:.

Frankly, I was more bothered by Roslin's miracle cure in Season Two than I am by this Starbuck thing. Over time, my opinion on that has changed a little. It doesn't bother me as much now, but I remember thinking at the time that I was glad she was OK but I wished they'd come up with just about anything else as an excuse to keep her alive.

But yeah, we're not going to agree on this. I sincerely hope that whatever transpires the rest of the season will make this annoyance worthwhile to you. I'm just saying I think they've provided all the explanation we're going to get.

Regarding the Cylon trick theory -- I don't know what Adama would think would be the point of such a trick. From his perspective, the Cylons had them dead to rights. They could've finished them off in the first episode. Why bother putting Kara back into the fleet to lead them into some other trap? If the idea is that Kara would lead them all (including the Cylons) to Earth, why wouldn't the Cylons have just gotten the location from her when they supposedly had her? I just don't understand why the characters would believe this is some "Cylon trick".

My question is how did they find the fleet in the first place, if not from Starbuck who?

The other question that festers is the new Viper, weren't all viper of the Galactica of some early vintage (first Cylon war) without computers.

Yet she had a new old style Viper, this leads me to think there was some type of time travel, maybe the viper hit 88 mph prior to exploding, which it really dint, it just went Back in time.:eek: But seriously was last weeks show filler or what. :D oops I blasphemed.:(:p:D

If I'm Adama, the fact that the Cylons inexplicably backed off when they had them dead-to-rights would just mean that the Cylons don't want them dead. It's perfectly possible that they may have other plans for them that involve getting as many living human beings as possible to some choosen location for internment. If this were the plan, it would be best if the Cylons could lure them into moving themselves whereever it is that the Cylons want them to be. Sure, they could have defeated them in that attack and captured the survivors, but they probably would have had to kill nearly all of them to do it. We, the viewers, know that this isn't what's happening because we've been given glimpses of the interactions of the Cylon leadership--we know that they didn't cancel the attack and we know that they didn't abduct Kara Thrace. Adama and Roslin don't have that information. All they know is that Kara was observed to have been killed and then returned to them weeks--"over two months"--later in a brand new ship that she certainly had no way of creating with no memory of having been gone for anywhere near so long--she thought that she'd only been gone for a little over six hours. Obviously, if it is the real Kara Thrace, someone abducted her while destroying the fighter she left in, kept her alive and healthy for several weeks, placed her in that new ship, and dropped her in their path, and someone has tampered with her mind, giving her an obsession with leading them "back to Earth" that's driving her mad the longer that she tries to ignore it. Adama and Roslin are unaware of anyone else being out there except the Cylons, so who else would it be? Again, we the viewers know that it wasn't them (or at least we know that it wasn't the group of Cylon's that's been hounding and harassing them), so I'm not advancing that as a plausible theory, but Adama doesn't know what we know.

For the umpteenth time, she's been held somewhere by someone and kept alive for two months, then returned with no memory of what happened to her in that time, just some possibly bogus memory of having been to Earth and knowing the way to get back (her theory is apparently that she got there from the location where they saw her die and then to the location where they are now, two months further along their journey, in a total of 6 hours). There's no way that he can trust her at all, and she's done nothing to encourage that trust. In fact, she should be up on charges of treason for threatening the life of the President--certainly she should have been stripped of all military rank on that account. Instead, he dusts her off and gives her command of a mission. Please.

EDIT: I watched little bits of the season premiere over and in the scene where they're on the flight deck examining the ship that Starbuck returned in, Adama and Roslin posit the theory of the Cylon's mysteriously aborted attack and Starbuck's simultaneous reappearance as being part of the same Cylon plot, ultimately being to lead them to some place for unknown reasons. Neither of them discounts the possibility of her being a Cylon (what Cottle certified was not her humanity, but that her DNA was identical to that in Starbuck's medical record). Tigh and Tory, who are both present, state that her having the same DNA was no proof that she wasn't a Cylon, since she might have been one all along (while they're doing this the camera bounces from Tyrol to Tigh to Tory).

The other question that festers is the new Viper, weren't all viper of the Galactica of some early vintage (first Cylon war) without computers.

Yet she had a new old style Viper, this leads me to think there was some type of time travel, maybe the viper hit 88 mph prior to exploding, which it really dint, it just went Back in time.:eek:It was the same model ship that she left in, with the same tail-number painted on it (as well as her name and call-sign), but somehow restored (after it was observed to explode) to pristine, factory floor condition. They all have computers; no doubt their control systems are a fly-by-wire design. The navigation computer on the one that she brought back had no record of her flight path.

It was the same model ship that she left in, with the same tail-number painted on it (as well as her name and call-sign), but somehow restored (after it was observed to explode) to pristine, factory floor condition. They all have computers; no doubt their control systems are a fly-by-wire design. The navigation computer on the one that she brought back had no record of her flight path.

My point about the ship being an older design is maybe, its from the past?
In the original mini series, the new vipers were all disabled due to computer sabotage by the Cylons, they grabbed the old vipers out of the museum (older firmware) they weren't effected, I'm wondering if this is an old viper, a new old viper could only come from the past, time travel must be in the final story somehow? Me thinks. So maybe she dint die, but went back to the past.

Perhaps they're just being lured to Earth by the original Cylon skin job designers, for whatever reason, maybe to make more models with the new crop of Humans. I just hope Balter ends up being an insignificant human that just started a cult.

My point about the ship being an older design is maybe, its from the past?
In the original mini series, the new vipers were all disabled due to computer sabotage by the Cylons, they grabbed the old vipers out of the museum (older firmware) they weren't effected, I'm wondering if this is an old viper, a new old viper could only come from the past, time travel must be in the final story somehow? Me thinks.Interesting theory, but I think that what sunk the newer Vipers wasn't so much that they were newer, but that they had their auto-landing control systems active. In the mini-series, when Apollo showed up to play a part in the Galactica decomissioning ceremonies, he was surprised that they didn't take control of his Viper and land it for him. Apparently they had those systems on Galactica, but Adama had it all disabled, because it involved computer networking, a vulnerability that the Cylons had exploited in the war. It's possible that the ability of a battlestar to assume control of a ship for automated landing via wireless networking constituted an opportunity for Cylon systems to hack in and disable them. I could be wrong.

In any case, Tyrol stated in a scene in the season premiere that the ship that Starbuck returned in was identical to the one that she left with, except that it didn't have a single scratch or ding on it, and might have just come off the "showroom floor", whereas he'd been nursing the ancient ship that she'd been flying since the beginning. Roslin said, "So, it's not the same ship?" and he replies, "Unless she found one hell of a body shop out there, no ma'am, it's not the same ship." If it was a different model ship, I should think that he'd have mentioned it.

LOL, I give up michaeltscott. I can deal with this plot and it certainly doesn't in any way ruin my enjoyment of the show, particularly if the "contrivance" pays off.

I am about to give up on Lost again, though. I don't know how they can get away with constantly introducing more ridiculousness in almost every episode with little to no hope of ever explaining the whole thing satisfactorily. Yet when BSG spends an episode setting up chess pieces for its final season, it's lambasted by its own fans.

Interesting theory, but I think that what sunk the newer Vipers wasn't so much that they were newer, but that they had their auto-landing control systems active.

Not quite...it was Baltar's navigation program. It gave the Cylons a back-door into the computer of any ship that had it installed and running. That included all of Galactica's modern Vipers (the vipers they fly now were stored in the other Flight Deck Musuem). And most of the Fleet.

Galactica had the program on it's mainframe, but they never installed or ran it. So they were immune.

Okay. Of course, I could have looked it up, but I was lazy :).

Also, could the maelstrom have been an wormhole in that gas giant? Could the explosion have been the cylon raider leading her into it? Could it have been from Starbuck crossing an event horizon?

We just don't know these things yet, so we just need to sit back and relax and enjoy the show.

Also, could the maelstrom have been an wormhole in that gas giant? Could the explosion have been the cylon raider leading her into it? Could it have been from Starbuck crossing an event horizon?

We just don't know these things yet, so we just need to sit back and relax and enjoy the show.

Something along those lines, I'll wager, but I've really got no idea at this point - not that I care. And your last paragraph is good advice. We obviously don't know where Moore and Company are going with this astounding plotline, but it's bound to be good if past plot developments are any indication. Saying it's all preposterous and therefore the show is in decline or become "dreck" is not only premature, but downright silly (at the risk of sounding, dare I say it?, condescending). Let the nice people tell their story, fercryinoutloud. If, at the end of next season's finale, we find ourselves disappointed (as if...:rolleyes:), then let the whining & bellyachin' commence. Until then, let's just enjoy the show. (Or there's always 'Deal or No Deal'; what suspense there!) And there's a new episode tonight, which should be good as Kara gets some face time with a Hybrid! Woo-hoo! :)

I am about to give up on Lost again, though. I don't know how they can get away with constantly introducing more ridiculousness in almost every episode with little to no hope of ever explaining the whole thing satisfactorily. Yet when BSG spends an episode setting up chess pieces for its final season, it's lambasted by its own fans.

You do see the irony here, right loco? :D We're talking about the two best shows currently on TV, with the most fiendishly complicated storylines devised by extremely creative and imaginative people for our enjoyment. We should be celebrating our collective cluelessness, not condemning it. Embrace the confusion, I say, for all too soon shall ye be enlightened and the fun will be over.

Saying it's all preposterous and therefore the show is in decline or become "dreck" is not only premature, but downright silly (at the risk of sounding, dare I say it?, condescending).It was condescending, but I'm beginning to understand that that's just in your nature :). I present an opinion, go on and on about my reasons for holding that opinion and instead of presenting a detailed counter-argument, you just call what I say "preposterous" and "silly". Thanks :rolleyes:. It's stuff like that which precipitates all the bickering in these threads. I really look forward to hearing your opinions and theories about what's happening on the show, but you really should try to keep your opinions of other people's opinions to yourself.

I'm fairly certain that there will be no further explanation given by the show for one of my main problems, Adama handing command of a mission to Starbuck, when she's been gone for two months that she can't remember, returns in an apparently different ship (it was, of course, restored to a like-new state by her time-bending trip through the "wormhole" :rolleyes:--no offense intended, TyrantII :cool:), is driven slowly and obviously insane by their ignoring her bizarre compulsion to lead them to "Earth" and has committed the treasonous act of holding the President at gunpoint.

My other problem is them spending so freakin' much time on Baltar's Religion. These endless, nauseating scenes of him interacting with this grimy room full of a pathetic woman can convey nothing that couldn't be said in one tenth the amount of screen time, without torturing the viewer. I have to suspect that they simply don't have a season's worth of story left to tell and they're just stretching it out any way that they can.

As for Lost, I'm not having any problem with it this season. I'm really enjoying all of the reveals and the dialogue and acting has been damn good from where I'm sitting. There are only a few things that I need to know, and they have plenty of time to give explanations for those.

It was condescending, but I'm beginning to understand that that's just in your nature :). I present an opinion, go on and on about my reasons for holding that opinion and instead of presenting a detailed counter-argument, you just call what I say "preposterous" and "silly". Thanks :rolleyes:. It's stuff like that which precipitates all the bickering in these threads. I really look forward to hearing your opinions and theories about what's happening on the show, but you really should try to keep your opinions of other people's opinions to yourself.


All right, this is going too far; now I'm starting to get a little peeved. I haven't been attacking you personally, didn't even mention you, like you're doing to me with the "condescending" crap, just pointing out how ridiculous it is to be making blanket statements about the quality of the plotline at this point when none of us have any idea where said plotline is going. All I'm saying is, again, give the creators the benefit of the doubt as they haven't done anything so far to give one reason to believe they're not going to pay this off in spectacular fashion.

I, and others, have also pointed out examples within the series to illustrate that Adama's actions with regard to Starbuck are entirely consistent within the historical context of the show including his treatment of and feelings for Kara Thrace, but you stubbornly refuse to even consider that possibility and keep going on about how it's all so unrealistic to you and that's making the show "dreck". If you're not open to other possibilities and explanations, then at least stop attacking me for trying to point them out to you. Once again, let the nice people tell their story and stop jumping on me. I'm just here to have fun and discuss the show and all the possibilities for great storytelling it's providing. I don't know why you're so willing to let that happen with LOST, but not with this show which is of equivalent quality. We're damn lucky to have both of them considering what real dreck populates the rest of the current TV universe. If you insist on shutting your mind to those possibilities, then that's on you. :rolleyes:

You do see the irony here, right loco? :D We're talking about the two best shows currently on TV, with the most fiendishly complicated storylines devised by extremely creative and imaginative people for our enjoyment. We should be celebrating our collective cluelessness, not condemning it. Embrace the confusion, I say, for all too soon shall ye be enlightened and the fun will be over.

I'll keep watching Lost, but I'm having trouble caring as much. I don't want to get off on a tangent on Lost again, and I apologize for bringing it up. But I do have many reasons for my frustration with that show.

However, I do agree that, when it's at its best, Lost is an example of how good TV can be. I just care much more about the BSG universe at this point.

Anyway, let's hope that tonight's episode of BSG blows us all away and we can all come back here to discuss its brilliance. :)

I hate to join the naysayers, but so far this season has been a snoozefest. My only hope is that this is all a bunch of critical character development to set up a wild ride to the finish. It almost reminds me of the time on Lost when Jac, Claire and Sawyer were locked up in the Others camp. It sucked when you were going through it, but it paid huge dividends in the end.

All right, this is going too far; now I'm starting to get a little peeved. I haven't been attacking you personally, didn't even mention you, like you're doing to me with the "condescending" crap, just pointing out how ridiculous it is to be making blanket statements about the quality of the plotline at this point when none of us have any idea where said plotline is going.Again, you said:
Saying it's all preposterous and therefore the show is in decline or become "dreck" is not only premature, but downright silly (at the risk of sounding, dare I say it?You didn't say my name: you quoted me. Who is it that called the last two episodes "dreck"? I and only I said that (and you've harped on it ever since as though I'd given deadly insult to your mother). So how is that not a condescending opinion of my opinion? Saying that you disagree and calmly stating your reasons why is one thing; calling my opinion "downright silly" is another. I don't care that you may be thinking that, but posting it is just rude and can only lead to useless arguments like the one that we've been having (and believe me, you don't want to know the adjectives that I'd use to describe some of your opinions). We could go 'round and 'round on this--let's not and just tell people that we did.
All I'm saying is, again, give the creators the benefit of the doubt as they haven't done anything so far to give one reason to believe they're not going to pay this off in spectacular fashion.Well, I believe that they have done things to make me doubt that the ending will be at all interesting or enjoyable (much less "spectacular"), though I am giving them the benefit of a doubt, because, as I've already stated, at this point I plan to continue watching. But we don't have to agree about that, nor do I need some colorful disparaging description of how you feel about my opinion :).
I, and others, have also pointed out examples within the series to illustrate that Adama's actions with regard to Starbuck are entirely consistent within the historical context of the show including his treatment of and feelings for Kara Thrace, but you stubbornly refuse to even consider that possibility and keep going on about how it's all so unrealistic to you and that's making the show "dreck".Huh? I've just scanned the last week's worth of posts and you, loco and TyrantII are the only people who've defended Adama's act of putting the demonstrably insane, psychotically violent Starbuck in command of a mission. None of you has given any specific "examples within the series". You all stated that Adama's judgement is impaired when it comes to her because of the love that he feels for her, and you yourself have additonally pointed out that though Adama knows that she's been something of "a loose cannon", that very quality has saved the fleet on more than one occasion. I grant you both points, but what you stubbornly refuse is to acknowledge that this is a deeply different situation. At no point in the show's past was Starbuck missing for two months with no memory of where she was and what happened to her during that time. At no point in the show's past did Starbuck have a psychotic break, causing her to hold the President of the Colonies at gunpont, insanely thinking that she could force her to turn the fleet around and order it to follow her lead to whereever it is that she's maniacally driven to go. When he gave her command of that mission, she was not a "loose cannon"--she was a lunatic freshly returned from a lengthy, profoundly suspicious and totally unexplained absence, who'd amply demonstrated herself to be unstable and dangerous. It's not only nonsensical that he would free her from confinement and give her command of a mission, it was completely unnecessary, and it doesn't make any sense that any of the officers that he assigned would quietly agree to be placed under her command, given what they all know about her current situation. Though I can understand his desire to find out where whoever's been messing with Starbuck's mind wants them to go, the mission should have had her on the ship with no rank, confined to quarters and under constant guard. Helo should have been in command, with strict instructions to give her whatever resources she needed to figure out how to get to whereever she was driven to lead them and to take the ship whereever she directed him to go, as long as he judged each move to be reasonably safe. He should further be under strict instructions to make a scheduled rendezvous to report, refuel and restock (they'd been gone for 58 days when they found Leoben in that distressed Heavy Raider). Giving her command of a mission is a gigantic, idiotic contrivance which, for me, stinks up the entire ensuing subplot. They shouldn't be staging a mutiny against the predictably insane orders of an clearly disturbed woman, since there's just no way that she would been placed in command, no matter how much Adama loves her.Of course, if you've watched the preview of tonight's episode which aired at the end last week's, then you know that they will end up on that Cylon basestar with Starbuck talking to its Hybrid, and maybe this is the only way the writers could think of to get them there.If that's true, it's just unspeakably lame :rolleyes:.

Since past episodes are just that, past, my hope going forward is that the writers give us more air time on the Cylon-on-Cylon insurrection. A fascinating topic fraught with interesting possibilities. For the gratuitous folk, maybe a bit of a resurrection tub wrestling match between the Boomers and Sixes.

For the gratuitous folk, maybe a bit of a resurrection tub wrestling match between the Boomers and Sixes.:D

Look, Mike, what you're arguing is that Adama wouldn't act the way he has with Starbuck, so it's a lame plot device and it's ruining the show for you. All I and the others are arguing is that, given his past behavior of which several good examples have been given, it is not inconsistent of him to allow Starbuck to go on this mission. He can't afford to throw her in the Galactica brig on the off chance that she might actually know the way to earth. He can't afford not to take that chance in case she's right. And an overwhelming Cylon attack just mysteriously stopped the moment she showed back up, which would give him pause that she's dangerous. They could have finished the fleet off then and there. Now, I grant you that putting her in charge of the mission might not be the wisest choice, but for dramatic plot potential, it's great. No, he might not have sent all his best officers with her, but it keeps their main players involved in a big storyline. Again, got no problem with it; they've got to make an entertaining TV show after all. And that they're doing, most of us would agree. I don't mind you having a dissenting opinion; I just thought you went overboard on how it's affecting the show. Like Baltar's comely sirens, I rose to protect its honor. ;)

Feed on SciFi HD is coming in as windowboxed. Ick.

Feed on SciFi HD is coming in as windowboxed. Ick.

At least I'm not the only one :(

same here. I reset my D* receiver thinking it was on the fritz.

They just showed a full 16x9 commercial, though.

edit: and now it's fixed.

Ok... which idiot forgot to throw the "HD" switch???

Feed on SciFi HD is coming in as windowboxed. Ick.

Same here on DirecTV. Why is is so difficult to get a TV picture sent correctly??? BTW, Dr. Who before BSG was also letterboxed.

Oh good...someone found the switch.

Now it's in HD.
Is HD so hard to do??:(

First segment of the show is not in HD tonight via E*... They forget to flip the switch, yet a commercial during the first break is HD?! What the Frack? Just came back from commercial in HD...

Same here on DirecTV. Why is is so difficult to get a TV picture sent correctly??? BTW, Dr. Who before BSG was also letterboxed.

FIXED!

Was this the first time since sci-fi went HD that they screwed up?

Is that patient Roslin is talking to Nana Visitor from Deep Space Nine???

Same here on DirecTV. Why is is so difficult to get a TV picture sent correctly??? BTW, Dr. Who before BSG was also letterboxed.

That's how Dr. Who always is though.

That was made of awesome. Great episode!

Another *yawn* boring episode....no action, no big 'sposions. Do these writers have any idea what they're doing.....Clearly this show is going downhill.

[/sarcasm]

When a man watches science fiction on his expensive television, he demands to see spaceships shooting at each other! There's my sarcasm! :)

Is that patient Roslin is talking to Nana Visitor from Deep Space Nine???

Yes it was. She looks weird without her Bajoran wrinkle between the eyes ;)

Yes it was. She looks weird without her Bajoran wrinkle between the eyes ;)

I'm not familiar with the actress, but she was very good. Please tell me those weren't her real teeth. :p

Very good episode. I need to watch it again to process all that happened though.

I'm not familiar with the actress, but she was very good. Please tell me those weren't her real teeth. :p

She played Major Kira on Deep Space Nine for 7 years. And I could be mistaken but I think she did a stint on Babylon 5 as well.

Those definitely aren't her real teeth. :D

She played Major Kira on Deep Space Nine for 7 years. And I could be mistaken but I think she did a stint on Babylon 5 as well.

Those definitely aren't her real teeth. :D

Thanks, I am strangely relieved. I never watched DS9. Makes sense RDM would cast her then.

Athena is losing me. Show a little humanity. That was cold.

She played Major Kira on Deep Space Nine for 7 years.
Those definitely aren't her real teeth. :D
She was also in half a dozen Dark Angel episodes in 2001 (as was about 50% of the BSG cast:D).

I checked my DVR for the first showing. Letterboxed SD until the commercial break, as noted earlier, so I recorded the second showing. Exactly the same! What the FRACK???!!!

Hey Bill Shakespeare, did you notice Baltar was quoting you? :)

Yeah, I'm setting my DVR for Sunday's night's showing now to see if Skiffy can finally get it right and show the whole episode in HD. Sheesh.

Anyway, let's hope that tonight's episode of BSG blows us all away and we can all come back here to discuss its brilliance. :)

On a similar note, anybody ever wonder if 20 yrs from now, this awesome bsg series will be seen as yet another ridiculously campy and cheesy chapter in bsg's history (similar to how the original series is seen today)?...or have the creator/writers finally achieved redemption for the franchise and will forever be heralded as one of the best sci-fi classics to come out at the turn of the millenium?

It seems that I may have been right about the Final Five being from Earth.:cool:

On a similar note, anybody ever wonder if 20 yrs from now, this awesome bsg series will be seen as yet another ridiculously campy and cheesy chapter in bsg's history (similar to how the original series is seen today)?...or have the creator/writers finally achieved redemption for the franchise and will forever be heralded as one of the best sci-fi classics to come out at the turn of the millenium?

I think it'll be the latter. They've created something truly special that will resonate for many years to come. It'll join the ranks of Blade Runner and 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Wouldn't you love to be annointed the harbinger of death by a woman in a goo bath? As if Starbuck wasn't unstable enough as it is....

On a similar note, anybody ever wonder if 20 yrs from now, this awesome bsg series will be seen as yet another ridiculously campy and cheesy chapter in bsg's history (similar to how the original series is seen today)?...or have the creator/writers finally achieved redemption for the franchise and will forever be heralded as one of the best sci-fi classics to come out at the turn of the millenium?

What makes it great also will help it stand the test of time. Its built on character development and storyline. Something that most shows never do.

What I will say about the original series is that there was great writing. It was a great show in its own right. If it hadn't been, they wouldn't have done another series no it. We haven't seen a remake of Plan 9 from Outer Space:D

Okay guys. Even the most ardent defenders of this show have to admit that the over indulging Rosalyn scenes last night were mind numbingly BORING! Not to mention a huge waste of screen time. Had I been watching this on my DVR instead of live, I would have fast forwarded through all of that Major Kira crap and not missed a single important thread of story information. Some people have been comparing BSG to Lost. At least Lost keeps the story moving and knows when to get on with it.

Okay guys. Even the most ardent defenders of this show have to admit that the over indulging Rosalyn scenes last night were mind numbingly BORING! Not to mention a huge waste of screen time. Had I been watching this on my DVR instead of live, I would have fast forwarded through all of that Major Kira crap and not missed a single important thread of story information. Some people have been comparing BSG to Lost. At least Lost keeps the story moving and knows when to get on with it.

It's those small moments that help make the show special, IMO. Rosalyn has become ever more the "iron lady" these days, very Margaret Thatcher-like. What those scenes did was reintroduce us to her very real humanity that had been in short display for awhile now. She knows her role in the prophecies, knows it's all winding down now, and she's desperate to hold on until they actually find Earth. All the sacrifices she's had to make, all the compromises, all of it will finally be justified - and she's terrified she's not going to see it through.

It's all a part of the texture of the show, and they just happen to have a wonderful actress that can pull those scenes off. I'm especially enjoying the expanding relationship between her and Adama as they gently move into that good night. And it gives us a chance to catch our breath between scenes of stuff blowin' up real good. There was some good stuff there, too, last night. All the base ship battle carnage. Wow. :)

Okay guys. Even the most ardent defenders of this show have to admit that the over indulging Rosalyn scenes last night were mind numbingly BORING! Not to mention a huge waste of screen time. Had I been watching this on my DVR instead of live, I would have fast forwarded through all of that Major Kira crap and not missed a single important thread of story information. Some people have been comparing BSG to Lost. At least Lost keeps the story moving and knows when to get on with it.

A resounding no on that one. Boring? My goodness. Having lost people slowly to painful deaths over my years, including cancer, I can sadly tell you from experience how accurate and how heartbreaking those scenes were. It was an amazing look into death and how people prepare for it. Mary McDonnell and Nana Visitor were both incredible and that acting powerhouse would be enough for most shows. But the realness of how they portrayed not only their views of death but also Roslin's slow turn to understanding Baltar's religious views made those scenes truly special. By the way, that was a major plot point, in case you missed it - Roslin may be coming around on Baltar's religion.

What kind of show would this be if it didn't address the fact that the Roslin is dying in a real, humane way? If anything, this episode restored my faith (heh) in that character, along with Starbuck.

Incredible episode.

Blah, there was just too much story advancement and action on the Cylon base star for my taste.

What happened to good Ole Baltar and his merry making:confused:
I want the kind of action and plot doldrums from the last two episodes. I really miss the filler, makes good extra season box set stuffing:rolleyes:

OK, question: speculate on why the "Sharon" blood in the goo bath caused the hybrid to snap out of the confusion and give Starbuck straight information...including quoting the prophesy about the "dying leader".......the floor is open.....

Although unlike many I'm not especially a space battle scene junky, preferring the notable big ideas and the characters, I loved watching the aftermath of the BaseStar battle scenes. Gorgeous and well done. As I'd long hoped, they spent some time with the Cylon Civil War issues. Great to see the many Boomahs, even if they were clothed this time. Loved the (predictable but so what) way that stone bitch Natalie evened the score so that the bigger issue of finding Earth could be advanced.

My theory is that Baltar's boring diatribes make the terminal cancer patients wish for death. Those Ros scenes are where the script writers get pretentious and so full of themselves. No need to waste tens of minutes seting the scene.

Can't wait for the un-boxing and all hell breaking loose back on the battlestar as they search for the Five. Meanwhile, what's the other Cylon faction up to?

Sent an email to feedback@scifi.com regarding the first act being shown in SD on the HD channel. I asked about the upcoming Sunday night's showing too.
Lets see if they respond.

Great episode. It seems like each episode lately has some amazing acting from one character or another, kind of unexpectedly. Chief surprised me a few weeks ago with his scene in the bar. This week I was caught off guard by Rosalyns scene, talking about her mother dying. I actually got a little misty there.

My theory is that Baltar's boring diatribes make the terminal cancer patients wish for death.

:D

Great episode. It seems like each episode lately has some amazing acting from one character or another, kind of unexpectedly. Chief surprised me a few weeks ago with his scene in the bar. This week I was caught off guard by Rosalyns scene, talking about her mother dying. I actually got a little misty there.

I know, she was incredible. And just a note on that: I'm pretty sure McDonnell's real mother and sister died from cancer. Those scenes must have been very emotional for her.

I know, she was incredible. And just a note on that: I'm pretty sure McDonnell's real mother and sister died from cancer. Those scenes must have been very emotional for her.

You cross an experienced, accomplished actor with that kind of readily accessible motivation from which to draw and you get scenes like that. Good stuff.

It's those small moments that help make the show special, IMO.

If those moments were kept small and poignant, I wouldn't have a problem. But to wallow endlessly in them and devote half of the show to them makes me want to slit my wrists. This goes for what they're doing with Baltar as well.

If those moments were kept small and poignant, I wouldn't have a problem. But to wallow endlessly in them and devote half of the show to them makes me want to slit my wrists. This goes for what they're doing with Baltar as well.

By "small and poignant" you mean "insignificant and ineffective". like 99% of what television has been throughout its history where TV shows make their characters die contented in one scene like they're going to take a short nap. These scenes were so realistic it was hard to believe I was watching television. Only the L Word has dared to show terminal cancer as it is in real life.

If you're a lucky man, Rutger, you'll never have to experience what you saw last night and you'll never be affected by it like many of us were. Sorry that these endless scenes bored you.

wow, the condescension is getting laid on thick in this thread. There's all the jabs at people who want action instead of endless talking (which ignores that most of the people who want action seem to want it so the dang plot will actually move forward instead of sticking in molasses) insinuating they're knuckle draggers who can't appreciate good acting and drama/storytelling.

Now there's a couple of posts indicating the only folks who can appreciate the Roslin scenes last night are those who have personally gone through a family member dying, of cancer or otherwise.

I've gone through two close family members dying of cancer. I've been there, I've sat at their bedside. I know what the deal is. I did not feel much of anything in the Roslin scenes last night. It felt like pandering to me, it felt somewhat insincere, and it was boring. It didn't help that the way they've portrayed Roslin over the past half season has made me dislike her so much I really don't care what she does and look forward to the time her character isn't there anymore to bother me.

Just because some of us don't "appreciate" what they're doing with the Roslin cancer storyline, even with Bill Adama, doesn't mean we don't see plain as day what they're saying with it or what it's supposed to mean. We get it. We still think it's boring and not well carried out.

Moving on, last night's episode was the first in a while that had me pretty interested. Loved the Athena stuff, especially her reluctance to comfort her "sister" as she died; her severing of all of her ties to the cylons looks like it's being carried out even more next episode. I'm looking forward to hopefully seeing things continue to move forward with the cylon/human alliance forming.

Also great was the scene with that 'six' talking about how that woman killed her previously. BSG is simply amazing it's decision to make the Cylons as human and complex as they are, and to illustrate that there's two side to every story. Those Cylons that got wiped out by the insurgents, as though they were just a bunch of clay pigeons, have a different point of view, don't they? Athena confronting her 'sisters, Adama's relationship with Rosalyn, 'You made me believe'....BSG is just firing on all cylinders right now.

By "small and poignant" you mean "insignificant and ineffective". like 99% of what television has been throughout its history where TV shows make their characters die contented in one scene like they're going to take a short nap. These scenes were so realistic it was hard to believe I was watching television. Only the L Word has dared to show terminal cancer as it is in real life.

If you're a lucky man, Rutger, you'll never have to experience what you saw last night and you'll never be affected by it like many of us were. Sorry that these endless scenes bored you.

Oh good grief! :rolleyes: I was wondering when this kind of nonsense was going to come in. I guess we can't simply talk about a show without dragging a bunch of personal baggage into the mix. Just because I don't want my Sci-Fi to wallow in such things doesn't mean I've not experienced family members dying with cancer, or dealt with death and dying. Because believe me, I have. And in more ways than one. Without getting into unnecessary details, I treat cancer patients as a profession. So I have probably more first hand experience than most in this forum. And I deal it with it every day.

I watch shows like BSG for entertainment, and escapism. If I wanted to watch shows that focus on people dying of cancer, I would watch ER, and other medical shows. One more time: I have NO problem with the subject being addressed. But it's matter of extent, and there are far more interesting topics going on within the boundaries of the show, that in my opinion merit much more attention and screen time. For example, the Cylon Civil War, first came to a head 4 weeks ago. That was a very exciting event in the series. It took 3 more episodes, before they ever got back to it. And what did we get in the mean time??? The religious Baltar BS storyline. And last night, we got more Rosalyn cancer and dying BS. Which was totally rung out in the first couple of seasons, and doesn't need to be continually addressed to such an extent this late in the game. There are many other interesting things going on that are being totally ignored.

Everyone's gotta realize, different strokes for different folks. I'm loving this, but others want something different, nobody's opinion is wrong in this case. Although I'm enjoying this direction BSG has taken, I do understand where you're coming from Rutgar. Our preferences are not indications of our life experiences or level intelligence, etc. Personal taste is just personal taste.

I just finished watching my recording of last night's episode and I thought it was fantastic, from beginning to end. I think that they could have gotten us there without the Adama-frees-the-crazed-criminally-violent-and-suspicious-Starbuck-and-gives-her-command-of-a-mission bogus plot contrivance, but I'm definitely on my way to forgiving them for it :). Even the peek at next week's episode shows great promise. I'm so happy :D.

I loved the scenes betweem the dying Emily and Roslin. It was great acting, and it advanced the story by modifying Roslin's motivations, giving her a sense that the faith that Baltar's teaching has substance. Where she'll take that is anyone's guess, but she couldn't have changed her mind about it and him without them showing why, and no briefer set of scenes could have been used to convey a strong enough experience.

The revenge killing of Barolay by the crazed Six was also brilliant. I'd have had Natalie snap her neck after kissing her though. I also loved Anders' yearning to place his hands in their computer interface :).

I'm now much more hopeful for the series. They could end up making more bogus moves that would alienate me, but the ride looks like it will be fun again for a while.

wow, the condescension is getting laid on thick in this thread. There's all the jabs at people who want action instead of endless talking (which ignores that most of the people who want action seem to want it so the dang plot will actually move forward instead of sticking in molasses) insinuating they're knuckle draggers who can't appreciate good acting and drama/storytelling.


I'm sorry, but there's a lot of finger wagging going on here and it really needs to get throttled back. It's not condescending to point out that scenes some find boring, others find riveting. There seems to be a persecution complex being formed by some of us, which is ridiculous. As well as they're being done, those "talking" scenes don't detract from the other, faster-paced storylines at all, IMHO. Instead, they enhance them by mixing up the pace of the show and further developing the characters by allowing us to see how swirling events are driving changes in their motivations and priorities. If some don't see it that way, so be it, but to attack those who are trying to point these things out is counterproductive to the type of illuminating discussion we usually have here. I suspect that the only thing that would satisfy these folks is if every episode from here on out were balls-to-the-wall action, conflict, plot twists, and daring-do. And that's not going to happen even if they wanted it to. They have to marshal resources, and there's a lot of subtle storylines they still want to flesh out and which need more fleshin'. The Roslin cancer storyline, in particular, is important in her life-journey and is critical to the coming endgame.

I'm enjoying it all, but not enjoying the endless parade of whining about how slow and boring things are (and worse) which seem to come every episode now. This pace is likely to continue for the remainder of the series run, so are we going to have to read the same thing by a small group of malcontents every week? Do we really want that? If so, I'll bite my tongue and shut up about it. But enough with the persecution complex; nobody is trying to be condescending to anybody else. We're all here because we love the show and have no intention of bagging it this close to the end (well, most of us anyway).

I just finished watching my recording of last night's episode and I thought it was fantastic, from beginning to end. I think that they could have gotten us there without the Adama-frees-the-crazed-criminally-violent-and-suspicious-Starbuck-and-gives-her-command-of-a-mission bogus plot contrivance, but I'm definitely on my way to forgiving them for it . Even the peek at next week's episode shows great promise. I'm so happy. :D

You don't realize it, but you've done your good deed for the day, Mike. Made my weekend. :D

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the comment that the final five are from the thirteenth tribe (AKA Earth) or did I read that wrong.

Also great was the scene with that 'six' talking about how that woman killed her previously. BSG is simply amazing it's decision to make the Cylons as human and complex as they are, and to illustrate that there's two side to every story. Those Cylons that got wiped out by the insurgents, as though they were just a bunch of clay pigeons, have a different point of view, don't they? Athena confronting her 'sisters, Adama's relationship with Rosalyn, 'You made me believe'....BSG is just firing on all cylinders right now.

That 6 talking about how she couldn't get over being disposed of like an insect was masterful, eclipsing even the other excellent interaction between Boomer & her sisters.

Memory fades, what explicitly happened in that prior 6 disposal scene back on Caprica? Was it shown?

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the comment that the final five are from the thirteenth tribe (AKA Earth) or did I read that wrong.

no whitestang06 post#5323 mentioned it already:

"It seems that I may have been right about the Final Five being from Earth."

Okay guys. Even the most ardent defenders of this show have to admit that the over indulging Rosalyn scenes last night were mind numbingly BORING! Not to mention a huge waste of screen time. Had I been watching this on my DVR instead of live, I would have fast forwarded through all of that Major Kira crap and not missed a single important thread of story information. Some people have been comparing BSG to Lost. At least Lost keeps the story moving and knows when to get on with it.

:rolleyes:



Can't wait for the un-boxing and all hell breaking loose back on the battlestar as they search for the Five. Meanwhile, what's the other Cylon faction up to?

Good question, they've been silent lately. They also don't have an army, unless they were able to get the centurions in line.

Wonder what Adamas and Roslins reactions are going to be when a basestar jumps right on top of them with crazy Starbuck at the helm...

Also looking forward to the black opps episode they're setting us up for. Cavil isn't just going to let them walk in and unbox Diana.

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the comment that the final five are from the thirteenth tribe (AKA Earth) or did I read that wrong.

Something about the three, who knows the 5 from earth.

Now what the hell does that mean? Are they human? are they cylon or half breeds?

One thing I don't understand is Roslin in this episode. She seemed very religious in previous seasons, and believes in her visions and the scripture, but in this episode it's revealed she's very afraid of death, and doesn't believe in the gods or an afterlife...

I just don't understand how that jives after, unless it can just be explained away as death is very close. But talking of her mother, it seems this has always been her view...

Everyone's gotta realize, different strokes for different folks. I'm loving this, but others want something different, nobody's opinion is wrong in this case. Although I'm enjoying this direction BSG has taken, I do understand where you're coming from Rutgar. Our preferences are not indications of our life experiences or level intelligence, etc. Personal taste is just personal taste.

Exactly. People are entitled to their opinion without being taken to task by people who don't agree.

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the comment that the final five are from the thirteenth tribe (AKA Earth) or did I read that wrong.

Yes, I caught that as well. What surprised me is that it didn't illicit the response from Starbuck that I would have expected.

It's those small moments that help make the show special, IMO. Rosalyn has become ever more the "iron lady" these days, very Margaret Thatcher-like. What those scenes did was reintroduce us to her very real humanity that had been in short display for awhile now. She knows her role in the prophecies, knows it's all winding down now, and she's desperate to hold on until they actually find Earth. All the sacrifices she's had to make, all the compromises, all of it will finally be justified - and she's terrified she's not going to see it through.

It's all a part of the texture of the show, and they just happen to have a wonderful actress that can pull those scenes off. I'm especially enjoying the expanding relationship between her and Adama as they gently move into that good night. And it gives us a chance to catch our breath between scenes of stuff blowin' up real good. There was some good stuff there, too, last night. All the base ship battle carnage. Wow. :)

I agree with Archiguy. These scenes are what make this show special. They provide depth to the characters where most shows leave only stick figures. Since many of the posters here, like I, did not begin watching this show from the beginning and benefited from DVD's and in my case watching Universal for season 2 while DVR'ing season 3 on SciFi, having to wait an entire week for the next installment is frustrating. Frustrating because of the desire for each episode to move the overall plot closer to fruition. IMHO, the richness of he characters makes what eventually happens to them a more rewarding experience for the viewer.

Wonder what Adamas and Roslins reactions are going to be when a basestar jumps right on top of them with crazy Starbuck at the helm...



I was wondering the same thing. It surprised me that we didn't see this at the end of the episode when Adama and Roslin were having their talk.

Well I'm thinking the final Cylon is the entire Colonial population at this point :) This has all happened before and will happen again! The civil war, the partnering, the abuse of the centurions and then the "enablement" of them, one god, no god, many gods, .....

The obvious explanation for Baltar's accurate description of their dreams isn't that he is right - it's that the dreams were a result of listening to him while they were sleeping.

Without getting into unnecessary details, I treat cancer patients as a profession. So I have probably more first hand experience than most in this forum. And I deal it with it every day.
And I'm guessing that's why you don't want to deal with it on television. It can't be fun having the most difficult part of your profession depicted realistically. Your job would make me want to slit my wrists.

I watch shows like BSG for entertainment, and escapism. If I wanted to watch shows that focus on people dying of cancer, I would watch ER, and other medical shows.
You should know more than any of us that those shows aren't realistic.

We've known since the first season that the president, one of the most important characters on the show, was dying of cancer. How did you expect BSG to deal with this? Did you assume they'd do the usual T.V. show road and just shove the character into the background while she died so the audience wouldn't have to deal with such depressing subject matter? Ronald Moore has said from the beginning that this show is not about generic sci-fi escapism like the original series was.

:rolleyes:



Good question, they've been silent lately. They also don't have an army, unless they were able to get the centurions in line.

Wonder what Adamas and Roslins reactions are going to be when a basestar jumps right on top of them with crazy Starbuck at the helm...

Also looking forward to the black opps episode they're setting us up for. Cavil isn't just going to let them walk in and unbox Diana.



Something about the three, who knows the 5 from earth.

Now what the hell does that mean? Are they human? are they cylon or half breeds?

One thing I don't understand is Roslin in this episode. She seemed very religious in previous seasons, and believes in her visions and the scripture, but in this episode it's revealed she's very afraid of death, and doesn't believe in the gods or an afterlife...

I just don't understand how that jives after, unless it can just be explained away as death is very close. But talking of her mother, it seems this has always been her view...

Well Danna was one of the ones who saw the five in the temple and maybe that is why they are going to unbox her.

I'm sorry, but there's a lot of finger wagging going on here and it really needs to get throttled back. It's not condescending to point out that scenes some find boring, others find riveting. There seems to be a persecution complex being formed by some of us, which is ridiculous. As well as they're being done, those "talking" scenes don't detract from the other, faster-paced storylines at all, IMHO. Instead, they enhance them by mixing up the pace of the show and further developing the characters by allowing us to see how swirling events are driving changes in their motivations and priorities. If some don't see it that way, so be it, but to attack those who are trying to point these things out is counterproductive to the type of illuminating discussion we usually have here. I suspect that the only thing that would satisfy these folks is if every episode from here on out were balls-to-the-wall action, conflict, plot twists, and daring-do. And that's not going to happen even if they wanted it to. They have to marshal resources, and there's a lot of subtle storylines they still want to flesh out and which need more fleshin'. The Roslin cancer storyline, in particular, is important in her life-journey and is critical to the coming endgame.

I'm enjoying it all, but not enjoying the endless parade of whining about how slow and boring things are (and worse) which seem to come every episode now. This pace is likely to continue for the remainder of the series run, so are we going to have to read the same thing by a small group of malcontents every week? Do we really want that? If so, I'll bite my tongue and shut up about it. But enough with the persecution complex; nobody is trying to be condescending to anybody else. We're all here because we love the show and have no intention of bagging it this close to the end (well, most of us anyway).



You don't realize it, but you've done your good deed for the day, Mike. Made my weekend. :D

I'm not sure what you mean by finger wagging and if you feel I'm doing that or not (certainly not intended), but the thread has had condescending remarks from both sides of this made up issue.

No, it's not condescending to point out that scenes some find boring others find riveting. But it is to insinuate that those who find those scenes boring just don't get it. And that's been going on out in the open and in subtext.

And it's been going on from both sides.

And, honestly, bringing out the old persecution complex bit is a little condescending in and of itself (IMHO, of course) and can usually be applied to both sides in board dysfunctions like this.

In any event, everything else you say is absolutely spot on. My problem isn't that there are "slow" dialog/character based episodes and overarcing storylines that are carried through. It's part of what hooked me into this show to begin with. My problem is they aren't doing those things as well. Of course Roslin's journey through cancer as the dying leader of prophecy is a critical storyline and theme as the series nears its end...yet I and many other viewers don't feel these scenes are being carried out well and have lost interest in a critical part of the story. This is not the fault of the viewer.

That's all I'm going to say on it and I'll let it rest. I'm going back to lurking.

I just finished watching my recording of last night's episode and I thought it was fantastic, from beginning to end. I think that they could have gotten us there without the Adama-frees-the-crazed-criminally-violent-and-suspicious-Starbuck-and-gives-her-command-of-a-mission bogus plot contrivance, but I'm definitely on my way to forgiving them for it :). Even the peek at next week's episode shows great promise. I'm so happy :D.


Been waiting for your opinion on this one. I'm truly very glad to read this!

We've known since the first season that the president, one of the most important characters on the show, was dying of cancer. How did you expect BSG to deal with this? Did you assume they'd do the usual T.V. show road and just shove the character into the background while she died so the audience wouldn't have to deal with such depressing subject matter? Ronald Moore has said from the beginning that this show is not about generic sci-fi escapism like the original series was.

Look. You and I don't agree. The difference is that I'm not taking you and your opinion to task on this subject. So just drop it. You're not saying anything that's going to change my view.

Well I'm thinking the final Cylon is the entire Colonial population at this point :) This has all happened before and will happen again! The civil war, the partnering, the abuse of the centurions and then the "enablement" of them, one god, no god, many gods, .....

One of the early theories of the nature of the Universe is that the expansion would eventually reverse and collapse back in on itself. This would result in another 'Big Bang'. So I always thought that that's what they were refering to with, "This has all happened before..." Of course in reality the Universe is not only still expanding, but that expansion is speeding up. So... so much for that theory. As many times that they have repeated this phrase, surely they will eventually answer what it means.

Look. You and I don't agree. The difference is that I'm not taking you and your opinion to task on this subject. So why don't you quit be a jerk and drop it. You're not saying anything that's going to change my view.I don't think that scowl was being a jerk in the passage that you quoted. He just stated that he disagreed with your opinion and was giving his reasons why--that's what discussion is. He was out of line with his previous suggestion that you didn't appreciate the scenes between Roslin and Emily because you'd never been through any similar experience. I assume that he doesn't know you personally, and can't know that you aren't actually in the middle of watching someone that you care about slowly die of cancer or some other disease, which would have made what he said a terribly hurtful insult. (Knock on wood--hopefully that's not the actual case :)).

And that is what we all have to avoid doing in this and other discussions. We can't avoid having emotional reactions to the stated opinions of others and making qualitative value judgements of those opinions, or assumptions about their experiences, cultural sophistication, education, intelligence and emotional sensitivity which combine to form their opinion, but we can and should avoid posting any of that here. When your knee-jerk reaction is "Well that's just a stupid|silly|ignorant|goofy thing to say! That person is probably some insensitive video-game-obsessed jerk who lacks the fine sensibility necessary to appreciate this program", please don't post it or even a hint of it. Take a moment, and think of what it is that you disagree with in what was said and post that, couched in as calm a tone as you can manage. It's possible that a peaceful exchange of your individual perceptions of the program under discussion might bring you into agreement, or at least a peaceful agreement to disagree. The other stuff just leads to people being uselessly pissed off at one another.

Actually Michael, I already edited that out, considering it rude and as you said, "a knee jerk reaction". But you must have grabbed it just before I did my edit. What's funny is the time stamps show a 17 minute difference in your post from my edit. I guess this forum isn't as 'instantanous' as we sometimes think.

Look. You and I don't agree. The difference is that I'm not taking you and your opinion to task on this subject. So just drop it. You're not saying anything that's going to change my view.

Without naming anyone in particular, the problem with a lot of the people who have been criticizing this show is that they're too impatient to let the story play out. They want instant gratification........this plot point must be settled, now, now now!!! It's like listening to children in the candy aisle at the grocery store.

Look, you even said it yourself:

I watch shows like BSG for entertainment, and escapism. If I wanted to watch shows that focus on people dying of cancer, I would watch ER, and other medical shows.

Key word here is I. Which is fine, obviously your opinion is yours to have.
The problem here is (not necessarily with yourself, but some others) is that when the show doesn't immediately satisfy their expectations they use it as some damning criticism.....the writers don't have a plan, they've lost their way, this show is going down the tubes, blah blah blah. People can't just watch the show and enjoy it for what it is because they have all these expectations. The problem is that this show doesn't abide by anyone's expectations and never has, ever since Six broke that baby's neck in the miniseries.

....me me me me me!!!! If the show doesn't do exactly what I want then it obviously sucks!!!! (exaggerated for effect but you get the point). It's just such an ego-centric view. If the show doesn't fulfill your expectations, I would suggest just not watching it. (not you personally, the universal "you")

Back to the impatience thing: there was a poster a while back (don't remember the name) complaining about how they had "abandoned" the plot line with Hera to that point. This was his "proof" that the writers had "lost their way".

But lo and behold, the teaser for next week's episode sure does look like a continuation of that plot line. But this can't be, can it? After all, I thought the writers had "abandoned" that plot thread, right?

I guess what I'm saying is that people need to just get the hell over themselves. If you can't handle the idea that this show is not going to immediately fulfill your every fanboy expectation of it, then I'd suggest simply stop watching it.

One thing I don't understand is Roslin in this episode. She seemed very religious in previous seasons, and believes in her visions and the scripture, but in this episode it's revealed she's very afraid of death, and doesn't believe in the gods or an afterlife...

I just don't understand how that jives after, unless it can just be explained away as death is very close. But talking of her mother, it seems this has always been her view...

Roslin has never been shown as being religious (at least, not to my knowledge).

She does, however, believe that the scriptures and prophecies have some basis in truth. Not so dissimilar to a history professor I once had, who was an atheist but constantly used a copy of the Bible which he called "the greatest history book ever written".

Well I'm thinking the final Cylon is the entire Colonial population at this point :) This has all happened before and will happen again! The civil war, the partnering, the abuse of the centurions and then the "enablement" of them, one god, no god, many gods, .....

So to follow your idea, could Adam and Eve have been skin jobs and their descendants populated the earth?

So to follow your idea, could Adam and Eve have been skin jobs and their descendants populated the earth?

"There are those who believe that life here began out there.."

I was wondering the same thing. It surprised me that we didn't see this at the end of the episode when Adama and Roslin were having their talk.

I cant wait. Just picture it "boom" the basestar jumps on top of them and Starbuck is screaming "dont shoot I made a truce with them...."

Something about the three, who knows the 5 from earth.

Now what the hell does that mean? Are they human? are they cylon or half breeds?

They're 100% Cylon. I think if we had more background on how the final five split off from the rest of the group this would all be easier to understand.

- - -

Um, am I off on this or are we now officially stealing from Asimov in a weird way? Human-like robots from an unfindable Earth there to steer humanity through its greatest crisis. Seriously, if the fifth Cylon is a robot name Daniel Oliver who lives inside the moon I'm going to cheer loudly.

I guess, if you're gonna steal material, steal good stuff.


Wonder what Adamas and Roslins reactions are going to be when a basestar jumps right on top of them with crazy Starbuck at the helm...

Judging by how he handled the Pegasus appearing out of nowhere, I'd imagine he'll be pretty cool.

Of course, sorting her out after her conversation with the hybrid will be interesting. Also, isn't having the hybrid say the same thing to Starbuck that she did to the chick in Razor all but make Razor moot?

Not so dissimilar to a history professor I once had, who was an atheist but constantly used a copy of the Bible which he called "the greatest history book ever written".

The Bible is the only extensive history that has been preserved intact for anything the period before AD 1000. Huge swathes of human history are lost because so few records were maintained and survived.

The Bible was the only book deemed deserving of enough copies to ensure its accurate transmission through thousands of years.

When you think that so few copies of great works were ever made, it is baffling how much knowledge humanity lost over and over again before the printing press. Consider that many of original copies of the Greek masters were all siting in a nice pile to be torched in Alexandria, with few if any other copies anywhere in the world.

It is amazing how recent a development caring about the survival of knowledge is.

Well Danna was one of the ones who saw the five in the temple and maybe that is why they are going to unbox her.D'Anna is the only one who saw the faces of the five in the Opera House vision (she was standing in the "Temple of Five" on the algae planet when it happens, just after its star begins to nova). Others have had visions of the Opera House but no one else saw the Five. She dies immediately after the vision, and when she's ressurected and starts blabbering about it, Cavil pulls her plug, having decided to box her.

Actually Michael, I already edited that out, considering it rude and as you said, "a knee jerk reaction". But you must have grabbed it just before I did my edit. What's funny is the time stamps show a 17 minute difference in your post from my edit. I guess this forum isn't as 'instantanous' as we sometimes think.It took me a while to compose my thoughts. I'd been wanting to post a "please don't post your subjective opinions of other people's opinions" message, and your exchange with scowl was a good example.

Funny how everyone in the room overlooked that whole "harbringer of death" stuff.... :rolleyes:

D'Anna is the only one who saw the faces of the five in the Opera House vision (she was standing in the "Temple of Five" on the algae planet when it happens, just after its star begins to nova). Others have had visions of the Opera House but no one else saw the Five. She dies immediately after the vision, and when she's ressurected and starts blabbering about it, Cavil pulls her plug, having decided to box her.

That's one. If we go with the idea that earth was populated by Cylons, its not too unrealistic to assume that the Cylons we know about are centurions trying to protect their home planet and that a couple of leaders "Have a plan"

Funny how everyone in the room overlooked that whole "harbringer of death" stuff.... :rolleyes:"Thus will it come to pass.
The dying leader will know the truth of the Opera House.
The missing three will give you the five,
who have come from the home of the 13th.
You are the Harbinger of Death, Kara Thrace.
You will lead them all to their end.
End of line."(A wonderfully pronouncement, full in the tradition of the greek oracles, poetic and obfuscated. No doubt the writers were pleased with that bit. I particularly like that "missing three..." sentence--very clever :cool:). It wasn't overlooked by Starbuck, who was visibly shaken to her core by it--eyes and mouth wide, she gasped as she heard it. Hopefully someone remembers to tell it to Roslin and Adama, when they make their report, but I'm somehow doubting it.

I guess what I'm saying is that people need to just get the hell over themselves. If you can't handle the idea that this show is not going to immediately fulfill your every fanboy expectation of it, then I'd suggest simply stop watching it.

THe insults need to stop on both sides. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean it has to become personal.

Loved this ep, even the cancer storyline. In a way, her facing death is a microcosm of the human race facing extinction. The desire to know what comes next, if anything, can be overpowering.

Um, am I off on this or are we now officially stealing from Asimov in a weird way?

Is there any Sci Fi out there that doesn't steal something from Asimov? He covered just about every possible thing to some degree.

Well if we read these 2 lines again :

"The missing three will give you the five,
who have come from the home of the 13th"

That means the Diana (Lucy Lawless) which is the 3rd model of cylon knows the final five are, as we all have seen the past episodes.

What I think the next line means is : The final 5 actually made it to earth before the 7 models where made and came back to Caprica. Once back they decided to erase thier memories of the event and knowledge they are hybrid cylons after constructing the 7 other models, leaving those in command. This would save earth from the anger of the cylons toward those they feel are thier creators.

The statement reads, who have come from the home of the 13th. Not.. who hearld or who originate, words that more aptly state that is your home planet. As a point I can tell someone I come from Winnipeg, but I actually grew up in (say) Calgary.

Kara could be the " Harbinger of Death" leading all those who's faith are in the gods of Olyimpus to thier ends when they discover earth has more different religious groups with Christianity making up the largest.

my take on it.

THe insults need to stop on both sides. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean it has to become personal.

Just to clarify I wasn't trying to insult anybody. I was making a broad generalization.

Just to clarify I wasn't trying to insult anybody. I was making a broad generalization.

I know.

Just to clarify I wasn't trying to insult anybody. I was making a broad generalization.

For someone not trying to be insulting, calling people 'fanboys' and telling them to stop watching is pretty insulting.

Is there any Sci Fi out there that doesn't steal something from Asimov? He covered just about every possible thing to some degree.

That's about as true as true can be.

For someone not trying to be insulting, calling people 'fanboys' and telling them to stop watching is pretty insulting.

Sorry, I just call it like I see it. I certainly wasn't trying to insult anyone in particular, but I guess if you want to take it that way there's nothing I can do about it.

Well if we read these 2 lines again :

"The missing three will give you the five,
who have come from the home of the 13th"

That means the Diana (Lucy Lawless) which is the 3rd model of cylon knows the final five are, as we all have seen the past episodes.

What I think the next line means is : The final 5 actually made it to earth before the 7 models where made and came back to Caprica. Once back they decided to erase thier memories of the event and knowledge they are hybrid cylons after constructing the 7 other models, leaving those in command. This would save earth from the anger of the cylons toward those they feel are thier creators.

The statement reads, who have come from the home of the 13th. Not.. who hearld or who originate, words that more aptly state that is your home planet. As a point I can tell someone I come from Winnipeg, but I actually grew up in (say) Calgary.

Kara could be the " Harbinger of Death" leading all those who's faith are in the gods of Olyimpus to thier ends when they discover earth has more different religious groups with Christianity making up the largest.

my take on it.

Good thoughts. I would also add the colonials believed in multiple gods and the cylons claim they believe in a single god just like most people on earth.

When they reach earth, it will be run by apes.

The obscured identity that Dianna saw was a furry dagget.

When they reach earth, it will be run by apes.

The obscured identity that Dianna saw was a furry dagget.


Dam dirty Apes!

Dam dirty Apes!

Ape Skin Jobs!

Is there any Sci Fi out there that doesn't steal something from Asimov? He covered just about every possible thing to some degree.He the recently departed A.C. Clarke and Robert Heinlien... :)

Ape Skin Jobs!

Hey, that is a future racial slur! :p

Is there any Sci Fi out there that doesn't steal something from Asimov? He covered just about every possible thing to some degree.

This is very true. I was just wondering aloud about how overt BSG is being about it.

Of course, it can't be too heavy of stealing from Asimov, or it would be impossible to actually film, as we all know that Asimov may be the least adaptable screenplay of any writer who ever put a word to paper.

Hey, that is a future racial slur! :p

Hey, we still haven't established BSG's timeline is in the future. This could be an archaic racial slur for all we know!

This is very true. I was just wondering aloud about how overt BSG is being about it.

Of course, it can't be too heavy of stealing from Asimov, or it would be impossible to actually film, as we all know that Asimov may be the least adaptable screenplay of any writer who ever put a word to paper.



Hey, we still haven't established BSG's timeline is in the future. This could be an archaic racial slur for all we know!

There is a possibility when this is all through I can call you brothers "Son of a skin job" and variations thereof.

Well if we read these 2 lines again :

"The missing three will give you the five,
who have come from the home of the 13th"

That means the Diana (Lucy Lawless) which is the 3rd model of cylon knows the final five are, as we all have seen the past episodes.

What I think the next line means is : The final 5 actually made it to earth before the 7 models where made and came back to Caprica. Once back they decided to erase thier memories of the event and knowledge they are hybrid cylons after constructing the 7 other models, leaving those in command. This would save earth from the anger of the cylons toward those they feel are thier creators.

The statement reads, who have come from the home of the 13th. Not.. who hearld or who originate, words that more aptly state that is your home planet. As a point I can tell someone I come from Winnipeg, but I actually grew up in (say) Calgary.

Kara could be the " Harbinger of Death" leading all those who's faith are in the gods of Olyimpus to thier ends when they discover earth has more different religious groups with Christianity making up the largest.

my take on it.

Very interesting Joe.

I think you're right about the missing "3" model giving you the final 5 models. Are you saying that 13 relates to earth being the 13th colony or that there is a 13th model ????

I think the second line is referring to a "13th" model......which might be Starbuck. Didn't she come from Caprica and the recently revealed 4 skinjobs come from Caprica?

Now that Starbuck has heard that she's the "Harbinger of Death" wonder what she'll do. Paint some more? :)

It was also interesting that one of the 6 models killed another 6 to prove to the humans that they were willing to do whatever it took to move forward. Sure went out of the way to mention that without a resurection ship nearby that that cylon was really dead.

Home of the 13th : referrs too the 13th colony of the colonials. 13 colonies left thier planet of Kobal to the "old" Caprica. Only 12 showed up the 13th was lost. Those 12 then went on to settle a new planet, its moons etc. They then made the orignal cylons "from that 70's tv show", stalemated the war, truce, then betrayal by the new 7 models. Hence that is why they refer to earth as being the lost 13th tribe.

"who have come from the home of the 13th" means they (final 5) pbly found earth, realized either A) they should be left alone B) are more powerfull then the cylons/colonials , and that is why the orignial 5 wiped thier memory of the planet and the fact they are hybrids.

Joe

Thanks for the clarification on what the home of the 13th meant. I really shouldn't post when I'm half awake. :)

If the final five came from the home of the 13th, they would have been around much longer than 40 years, the end of the first Cylon war, probably thousands of years older. I keep wondering if earth is of the future or the past, I'm thinking future Earth.

This would explain Tight being around and a Cylkon all these years.

I question why theres even a base star left at all, were they not badly outnumbered, why did the Cavils not thoroughly destroy them all.

If the final five came from the home of the 13th, they would have been around much longer than 40 years, the end of the first Cylon war, probably thousands of years older. I keep wondering if earth is of the future or the past, I'm thinking future Earth.

This would explain Tight being around and a Cylkon all these years.

I question why theres even a base star left at all, were they not badly outnumbered, why did the Cavils not thoroughly destroy them all.What the Hybrid said was "the five, who have come from the home of the 13th", not how long ago they came from there or in any way implying that it was also their home. It needn't have taken them any longer to "come from" there than it's taking the surviving Colonials to get there (and probably a lot less long, since they presumably knew the way, which the Colonials don't).

I don't see where you're coming up with "probably thousands of years older" at all. The only hint that we have about what the "other seven" models know about them is one of them (a Six or an Eight) excitedly exclaiming "imagine the things they must have seen!" when they were arguing with Cavil about the Final Five's presence in the Colonial fleet being why the Raiders suspended their attack.

Wasnt Starbuck already the harbinger of death? she killed lots of cylons. and bringing humanity to its end? could that just mean the end of the cycle(Earth)?

I agree with above that the the three is d'anna and that either the 5 come from earth or were sent and returned from there. They dont need to be that old since it will take less that 5 years for the fleet to reach earth.

Great season so far....I can see the plot really building up. Every show cant be intense and action packed, otherwise it would called somekind of crapfest like 24.

I've lost track, where is 'Caprica 6'. Was that the '6' that was just killed? The '6' in the Galactica's brigg is the one from the Pegasus, correct?

I've lost track, where is 'Caprica 6'. Was that the '6' that was just killed? The '6' in the Galactica's brigg is the one from the Pegasus, correct?

Caprica 6 is on Galactica (the one banging Tigh)

If the final five came from the home of the 13th, they would have been around much longer than 40 years, the end of the first Cylon war, probably thousands of years older. I keep wondering if earth is of the future or the past, I'm thinking future Earth.

This would explain Tight being around and a Cylkon all these years.

I question why theres even a base star left at all, were they not badly outnumbered, why did the Cavils not thoroughly destroy them all.

I wondered if maybe Boomer convinced Cavil to leave them adrift with no FTL drive. She seemed upset that they were killing them for real.

I've lost track, where is 'Caprica 6'. Was that the '6' that was just killed? The '6' in the Galactica's brigg is the one from the Pegasus, correct?

The Six in the brig is Caprica Six. The one from Pegasus (Gina) died in the nuclear explosion that took out Cloud 9 - there was no Resurrection Ship around. The Six that died in this episode was just a random Six as far as I can tell.

ETA: Iteki beat me to it. :)

Very interesting Joe.

I think you're right about the missing "3" model giving you the final 5 models. Are you saying that 13 relates to earth being the 13th colony or that there is a 13th model ????

I think the second line is referring to a "13th" model......which might be Starbuck. Didn't she come from Caprica and the recently revealed 4 skinjobs come from Caprica?

Now that Starbuck has heard that she's the "Harbinger of Death" wonder what she'll do. Paint some more? :)Why are you people working on this like an unsolved puzzle? It was interpreted for us during the episode, and you're just drawing the same conclusions the characters did. After the Hybrid gave her predictions, there's a commercial break and the next part of the scene with Roslin and Emily. When they return to the scene in the basestar:{the room is now dimly lit only by flashing symbols from the Cylon computer interface. They all watch an Eight die (having been gunned down by the Centurion in the room who became upset after they initially disconnected the Hybrid from the ship)}
Natalie: {in wonder} It's as if she doesn't even see us anymore.
Anders: {gently, with compassion in his voice} She's looking past us. I've seen that look many times, but never in the eyes of a Cylon.
Dying Eight: {in breathless bursts} Athena...you were right...Forgive me.
{Dying Eight reaches out for her hand; Athena, standing over her, reaches down and almost takes it, but in the end decides not to touch her. Anders kneels down and takes Dying Eight's hand and places his other hand on her cheek}
Anders: {gently, kindly} It's okay. I'm with you.
{Dying Eight take a few more ragged breaths, then a long exhale. Anders gently closes her eyelids. The camera cuts to Starbuck's face, still shell-shocked with her reaction to the Hybrid's "Harbinger of Death" statement}
Leoben: She will lead us to the end. We will now know the truth of the Opera House.
Natalie: The home of the 13th--
Starbuck: {as though just waking up} What?
Natalie: The Hybrid said, "the missing three will give you the five, who have come from the home of the 13th". {voice rising in mounting excitement} The home of the 13th tribe of humans--
Starbuck: {softly, slowly} And the five...is your final five Cylons.
Natalie: {still excited} If they've come from the home of the 13th tribe, then they must know the way back.
Starbuck: {still softly} They know how to get to Earth.
Natalie: {excited exhalation}
Athena: And the missing three is the model you boxed, for looking at the face of the five (sic).
Leoben: D'Anna.
Starbuck: {still softly} She can recognize 'em. {louder, resolute} Let's go. Demetrius is waiting for us.
{everyone gets up and leaves the room. Anders, still kneeling and gazing raptly at the face of the dead Eight, lingers for a moment, then rises to follow}Of course, they could be mistaken in their interpretation. That's the wonderful thing about sybils and oracles--they usually present their predictions in deliberately vague and imprecise terms, and in the ancient myths the major figures who consult them often experience great defeat or personal tragedy because they interpreted what they were given incorrectly. Note, for example, Leoben's first statement, implying that the Hybrid was saying that Starbuck would show them the way to their goal, totally ignoring the "Harbinger of Death" warning. But then, Leoben is interpreting the Hybrid's words through the filter of his obsessive love for Starbuck, and his conviction that she has a great destiny :). And what does he mean by "we"? It's the "dying leader" who will "know the truth of the Opera House"--who says that she (I assume--it might work out to be a "he" :)) will share that truth with anyone? :D

What the Hybrid said was "the five, who have come from the home of the 13th", not how long ago they came from there or in any way implying that it was also their home. It needn't have taken them any longer to "come from" there than it's taking the surviving Colonials to get there (and probably a lot less long, since they presumably knew the way, which the Colonials don't).

I don't see where you're coming up with "probably thousands of years older" at all. The only hint that we have about what the "other seven" models know about them is one of them (a Six or an Eight) excitedly exclaiming "imagine the things they must have seen!" when they were arguing with Cavil about the Final Five's presence in the Colonial fleet being why the Raiders suspended their attack.

The way I see it, The 3 saw the final five in the very old temple, how old was it, I figured it was thousand years at least? So how did she see the final five models? they would've had to be around far longer than the time of the last Cylon war, because the Hybrid dint say how long ago doesn't discount it, its not like she had an in depth conversation. I also assume the 12 lords of Kobal are Cylons, not goods that humans anointed as. Thats my thinking. For now.

I wondered if maybe Boomer convinced Cavil to leave them adrift with no FTL drive. She seemed upset that they were killing them for real.



:)

Good point makes sense, if she could actually convince him.

Yeah just watched Kobals last gleaming in HD (what a good episode) and looks like your right all visions are in that same house regardless of which planet they're on.

I see what you mean, there's no resemblance to any of the four revealed.

The way I see it, The 3 saw the final five in the very old temple, how old was it, I figured it was thousand years at least? So how did she see the final five models? they would've had to be around far longer than the time of the last Cylon war, because the Hybrid dint say how long ago doesn't discount it, its not like she had an in depth conversation. I also assume the 12 lords of Kobal are Cylons, not goods that humans anointed as. Thats my thinking. For now.The temple in which D'Anna had her vision of the Final Five (the Temple of Five on the algae planet) was very old, but in her vision, they were in the ancient Opera House on Kobol, the ruins of which were visited in season 1. I see that Opera House as just a setting for visions, and not indicative that the people having the visions were seeing into the ancient past. Baltar, Roslin, Athena and Caprica Six have all had vision set in that Opera House. At the end of "Kobol's Last Gleaming", the two-part season one finale, Baltar walks through the ruins of the Opera House on Kobol and experiences a vision of the Opera House in ancient times, and walks to the stage with Head Six to gaze down into a glowing cradle, which presumably holds Hera, the yet-to-be-born Cylon/Human crossbreed, who Head Six has been referring to as "their child"--Hera was not on that stage in the past, and I see no reason to think that the final five ever stood on the Opera House stage in the ancient past either. Of course, with this show, anything's possible, so I could be wrong :).

On an amusing note, there's a 10 Mpixel image of the D'Anna vision of facing the "Final Five" on the Opera House stage from the episode "Rapture" at the Battlestar Wiki, here (http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/4/42/Final_Five.jpg). I use my 46" 1080p LCD panel as a screen for my laptop, and I've blown it up to more than fill that screen and scrolled around through it. None of the robed actors in the scene bear any definite resemblance to the known "Penultimate Four"--you can see one woman's face clearly, including her eyes, and it's no one I recognize from the series. It's also quite obvious that none of them are Tory and probably just as obvious that none of them have the aged, grizzled chin of Tigh :). An unavoidable continuity nit, since that scene was shot long before the writers had decided on the identity of the Final Five. (If you're using Internet Explorer, clicking that link will display the picture in a window and scaled down to fit it--move the cursor to lie on the image and it will appear as a magnifying glass with a plus sign in it. Left-click the image and it will re-render it at full 3872x2592 resolution with scroll bars on the right and bottom. Really easy to make out fine details at that res :)).

Yeah just watched Kobals last gleaming in HD (what a good episode) and looks like your right all visions are in that same house regardless of which planet they're on.

I see what you mean, there's no resemblance to any of the four revealed.Sorry--I detest those little "edited by soandso on ..." tags that get put on posts that are edited after a certain period, so if I edit something that's still the final post of the thread, I'll cut it, delete it and repost. Your post caught me doing that :D.

OK just caught up on the ep and the thread (skimmed alot of the negative/personal stuff geez)

Couple little points from amateur me...

1) Being "Harbinger of Death" and "You will lead them all to their end" may not be bad things. Depends who are "Death'ing" and how you interpret "End" end could be death but for who? or End could simply mean conclusion like finding earth.

2) Clearly Starbuck doesn't think she is a Cylon cause she wants to un-box the 3 who would recognize her as such. But in the raptor, Leobon (and his lies) basically came out and said it. So we are still on the fence. Either way if Kara is she's a special model.

3) Funny First thing I though about the 13, was a 13th model too, but I think it mean earth now.

4) I too was trying to remember a 6 being drowned, but am having trouble recalling that. I thought Natalie was gonna snap her neck too.

Look. You and I don't agree. The difference is that I'm not taking you and your opinion to task on this subject. So just drop it. You're not saying anything that's going to change my view.

I had no intention of changing your view. I only wanted you to explain your view like I did mine. For some reason that upsets you. Sorry about that.

I don't think that scowl was being a jerk in the passage that you quoted. He just stated that he disagreed with your opinion and was giving his reasons why--that's what discussion is. He was out of line with his previous suggestion that you didn't appreciate the scenes between Roslin and Emily because you'd never been through any similar experience.

Yes, I was totally wrong about where Rutger was coming from and he filled me in. That gave me a new perspective of how someone would view these scenes and I appreciated that. Believe it or not, the only opinion that I'm trying to change is my own and I have absolutely no interest in changing what other people think since that's a complete waste of my time.

2) Clearly Starbuck doesn't think she is a Cylon cause she wants to un-box the 3 who would recognize her as such. But in the raptor, Leobon (and his lies) basically came out and said it. So we are still on the fence. Either way if Kara is she's a special model.Huh? I suppose that you're referring to when they were tooling around wreckage of the Cylon battle. At one point Kara says, "I can hear it," and Leoben tells the others, "The unstruck music vibrates in all of us. Few can hear it. Kara's one of the few". By "all of us", I took him to be referring to all sentient beings, humans and Cylons, and not "all of us Cylons". If Leoben thought that she was a Cylon, I'm sure that he'd have shared that with the Sixes and Eights and that they'd have acknowledged it more strongly than that.
4) I too was trying to remember a 6 being drowned, but am having trouble recalling that. I thought Natalie was gonna snap her neck too.I thought that it would have been perfect (especially since she says, "Then, I'm glad it's you", to Natalie, who who then grips Crazed Six's face as she kisses her like she might be about to give her head the requisite twist). Rendering human eye-for-an-eye justice while saving her sister the humility of being shot down like a mad dog by a (supposed :)) human.

EDIT: I just watched that over and now realize that Natalie did kill her, by standing up, then reaching down and pulling the trigger of the gun that Anders is still holding to Crazed Six's head. Don't know how I missed that before. Much better :).

An unavoidable continuity nit, since that scene was shot long before the writers had decided on the identity of the Final Five.

Not really, since those were just stand-in's used to carry out the scene. They wanted to surprise the actors as much as they surprised the audience with the reveal, so they wouldn't have wanted to use the "actual" five.

Not really, since those were just stand-in's used to carry out the scene. They wanted to surprise the actors as much as they surprised the audience with the reveal, so they wouldn't have wanted to use the "actual" five.

no it sounds like a good nit picker comment to me....they should have just shot the scene so that you couldnt really get a good look at the faces.

Huh? I suppose that you're referring to when they were tooling around wreckage of the Cylon battle. At one point Kara says, "I can hear it," and Leoben tells the others, "The unstruck music vibrates in all of us. Few can hear it. Kara's one of the few". By "all of us", I took him to be referring to all sentient beings, humans and Cylons, and not "all of us Cylons". If Leoben thought that she was a Cylon, I'm sure that he'd have shared that with the Sixes and Eights and that they'd have acknowledged it more strongly than that....


I took "All of us" as "All of us Cylons" as he slipped a sly look at Anders, and why would you suppose Leobon would tell the others, he seems to be always trying to manipulate the situations/others. And a few choice words from Natalie about his fascination with Kara, maybe he's keeping it to himself / or just suspects it.


EDIT: I just watched that over and now realize that Natalie did kill her, by standing up, then reaching down and pulling the trigger of the gun that Anders is still holding to Crazed Six's head. Don't know how I missed that before. Much better .


Dude how did you miss that :)

Not really, since those were just stand-in's used to carry out the scene. They wanted to surprise the actors as much as they surprised the audience with the reveal, so they wouldn't have wanted to use the "actual" five.

No. Moore only decided on who was the Fab Five after that scene was shot.

No. Moore only decided on who was the Fab Five after that scene was shot.

Even so, it doesn't change that those were just stand-ins with no bearing on the five.

It's a noob mistake to think Leoben was talking about only Cylons. Leoben's concept of spirituality extends miles past Cylon v human. Reference his interaction, including the Cylon dream/projection plane, with Roslin.

What's interesting is that all along Roslin has been on the opposite side of Leoben's prophecies. She dumped him out an airlock because at the end of the day she is sure he spins half truths in order to sow discontent. And considering Leoben's obsession with Starbuck, the hybrid's pronouncements really makes Leoben's constant dogging of Starbuck look veeery suspect.

The hybrid basically said, "Starbuck bad. Roslin good. End of line."

I've been more interesting in the hybrids line

"the children of the one reborn will find their own country" ...

Now I'm, thinking children actually refer to the cylons, the one reborn could be baltar, and "their own country" may suggest that "earth" may be a cylon planet ...

Also, the hybrid mentioned something about a toy soldier. Anyone remember what that was ?

Dude how did you miss that :)On first viewing, I thought that Natalie made a move to disarm Anders, causing his gun to go off by accident. See? Snapping Crazed Six's neck would have been unmistakeably deliberate, as well as more dramatic, IMHO :D.

I've been more interesting in the hybrids line

"the children of the one reborn will find their own country" ...

Now I'm, thinking children actually refer to the cylons, the one reborn could be baltar, and "their own country" may suggest that "earth" may be a cylon planet ...

Also, the hybrid mentioned something about a toy soldier. Anyone remember what that was ?That line must have been from Razor. For some reason, I don't remember the movie very well--I must have been very sleepy when I watched it :). I've been wanting to re-watch it and looked for a download, but the only one I could find was on Amazon Unbox, and there was no rental option. I don't want to pay $15 to "own" a download :rolleyes:, so I put the disc on my Netflix queue.

The toy soldier line was definitely from this episode (as was the "one reborn" stuff).
It was part of the hybrids ramblings ...

Actually, are there actual transcripts of these episodes, cause sometimes it's hard to take in everything these hybrids say.

The toy soldier line was definitely from this episode (as was the "one reborn" stuff).
It was part of the hybrids ramblings ...

Actually, are there actual transcripts of these episodes, cause sometimes it's hard to take in everything these hybrids say.Actually, I looked for a transcript and couldn't find one. (I'm always a little leary about using sites that give TV series transcripts, song lyrics and the like--they're notoriously apt to plant viruses and malignant spyware).

I didn't pay much attention to the ramblings of the Hybrid until she responded to Starbuck (and neither did any of the other characters, except to basically reject what she was saying up to that point as useless gibberish). I'll go back and give it a listen.

http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2307489

Found a transcript !!!!!

Okay, I listened to the passages of Hybrid-babble. It gives lots of things that sound like reports on maintenance operations, a few sentences that sound like they're from physics theorems and the following bunch of poetic lines, apparently nonsensical:
Then shall the maidens rejoice at the dance.
The children of the one reborn shall find their own country.
The intruders swarmed like flame. Like the whirlwind. Hope soaring to slaughter all their best against our hulls.
The city devours the land, the people devour the city, (something unintelligible because Leoben and Starbuck spoke over it)
No ceremonies are necessary...
The obstinate toy soldier becomes pliant.
All these things at once and many more. Not because it wishes harm, but because it likes violent vibrations to change constantly.
But you are a spark of God's fire.I don't know that they have much meaning, but they sound good. I really like the bit about the intruders and the one about violent vibrations :D.

Thanks for the link, lordvader. I think that mine are a bit more accurate, except for omitting the prosaic stuff.

The hybrid basically said, "Starbuck bad. Roslin good. End of line."

I'll take a even money noob bet that it is not that simple in terms of interpretation and/or story arc.. Bad and Good is in the eye of the observer, but to another observer it could be Good and Bad, depends on which side you are observing from;)

Thanks above, I was trying to listen to the Hybrid, she typically interlaced one tactical/repair issue with an abstract one.

And just because Leoben is supposed to be "special spiritual" etc, he is still a character of deception as far as I am concerned, he seem to always know more than he lets on.

BTW this noob, has watched the series from the beginning:D

Even so, it doesn't change that those were just stand-ins with no bearing on the five.Putting in a scene that shows faces that D'Anna was supposed to recognize which were faces of random people is totally bogus. They could be absolutely sure that fans would blow the frame up and check it out, and if any visible features didn't jibe with the Final Five revealed, those fans would be justifiably peeved, particularly if D'Anna is able to identify the FF, having supposedly seen the same thing that we did. They should have completely obscured the faces and hidden the hands, such that you couldn't make out even skin color, and used a bunch of people of approximately the same height, though maybe slightly different builds. (That guy at the far left is unusually short--D'Anna stands at least a head above him and Lucy Lawless is 5'11").

Back to the impatience thing: there was a poster a while back (don't remember the name) complaining about how they had "abandoned" the plot line with Hera to that point. This was his "proof" that the writers had "lost their way".

But lo and behold, the teaser for next week's episode sure does look like a continuation of that plot line. But this can't be, can it? After all, I thought the writers had "abandoned" that plot thread, right?

I guess what I'm saying is that people need to just get the hell over themselves. If you can't handle the idea that this show is not going to immediately fulfill your every fanboy expectation of it, then I'd suggest simply stop watching it.

Really, that's your argument for why the storytelling is so great?

While we may get back to Hera in the next episode, it's still kind of weak writing that she has barely been mentioned this season, given how important she was before. And as my wife pointed out to me tonight, with Athena and Helo on board the sewer ship, where the heck is that little baby and why would they leave it behind without a word about it after fighting so hard to get her back? The adoptive mother died some time back, aren't they taking care of the kid now since the baby was brought back to the fleet? I would think Athena would be inseperable from Hera at this point after all she's been through. Seems a topic worth explaining earlier in the season. It's pretty weak writing that there wasn't one single line of dialog to adress the baby in some way or another before now. "Brother Chuck"-ing her for half a season after making her a focal point for an entire previous season is pretty lame storytelling, whether you think so or not.

It's a pretty meandering narrative from time to time, and could be tightened up a tad. In a book, there would be an objective editor from the publisher helping the writer keep on focus, but the way a television writer's room work, that doesn't happen as much as it should because there's no objective point of view in the process.

Every script, every piece of literature, every play, or any other form of fictional storytelling will have its strengths and weaknesses, and is subject to critical review. This show, like every other show, has its flaws. Nothing is perfect. I suppose what I'm saying is that some people need to get the hell over themselves. If some fanboys can't handle a little commentary and critique of their favorite shows, and just want to watch the show with blinders on, I'd suggest simply stop reading bulletin boards on the internet.

Its sometimes a bit too obvious that the meandering is to add content to stretch what they do have into the remaining number of episodes.

I'll take a even money noob bet that it is not that simple in terms of interpretation and/or story arc.. Bad and Good is in the eye of the observer, but to another observer it could be Good and Bad, depends on which side you are observing from;)

I'd actually prefer a straight good/bad ending. There's a thin line between ambiguous (Firefly) and just plain convoluted (The 4400). I pray that Galactica doesn't cross it.

BTW this noob, has watched the series from the beginning:D

Fair enough. My bad.

Its sometimes a bit too obvious that the meandering is to add content to stretch what they do have into the remaining number of episodes.

Indeed... it makes you really wonder why they didn't stick with the original 13-episode order. These last five episodes could have easily been compacted into two or three, and then we wouldn't have had to gag down the Baltar Christ Superstar story in so many different and completely unpalatable ways.

They could be absolutely sure that fans would blow the frame up and check it out

Dude, this is by far the most unbecoming feature of sci-fi fans. There comes a point when we all need to get off it, dumb it down and just enjoy the story. Sci-fi fans always seem to have a way to get wound up over some fairly irrelevant detail. I'm sorry, but the composition of the shot and the choice of the glowing beings as a visual device is just a giant message saying, "We promise we'll reveal them soon, just not right now." They never were meant to be identifiable.

I'm sorry, but the composition of the shot and the choice of the glowing beings as a visual device is just a giant message saying, "We promise we'll reveal them soon, just not right now." They never were meant to be identifiable.Unfortunately, they are identifiable, which is the problem. Even without blowing it up, if I ever go back and watch this, it will be obvious that none of those people are any one of the "Penultimate Four" (well, a couple of the guys could possibly be mistaken for Tyrol from a distance, maybe, with their hoods pulled well forward.

They're not "glowing" for one thing--they easily could be, and so out of focus that it would eliminating every hint of the features and colors of their faces and hands. It was just sloppy, and as I said in the first place, an amusing nit.

Yes, I was totally wrong about where Rutger was coming from and he filled me in. That gave me a new perspective of how someone would view these scenes and I appreciated that. Believe it or not, the only opinion that I'm trying to change is my own and I have absolutely no interest in changing what other people think since that's a complete waste of my time.I never meant to imply that people should seek to change one another's opinions. I said that a peaceful exchange of perspectives on the program might bring you into agreement--or not. In any case, you'll understand one another, which is a good thing :).

(I wasn't really talking about you and Rutgar, but trying to make a general statement on why I think that threads get sidetracked in bitter dispute, with people slinging insults at one another without even realizing it, especially when people care as much about the topic as folks do about this program).

Unfortunately, they are identifiable, which is the problem. Even without blowing it up, if I ever go back and watch this, it will be obvious that none of those people are any one of the "Penultimate Four" (well, a couple of the guys could possibly be mistaken for Tyrol from a distance, maybe, with their hoods pulled well forward.

They're not "glowing" for one thing--they easily could be, and so out of focus that it would eliminating every hint of the features and colors of their faces and hands. It was just sloppy, and as I said in the first place, an amusing nit.

The one I'm looking at one that page is NOT a frame from the episode, but rather a production photograph. In the episode, all of the robed figures are hidden in light and unidentifiable. For all we know, the people in robes could have been pulled off the street, given $20, and asked to stand there in a white robe.

In episode
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h238/icanseeyou2/396.jpg

In production
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h238/icanseeyou2/640px-Final_Five.jpg

Well, I came in here to find out if the SD/HD issue was SciFi's fault, and apparently it was. What freaked me out was this was my first week with DirecTV HD, so I thought something was seriously wrong on my end. Thankfully that wasn't the case. But they didn't even fix it for the repeat Sunday night. =\

Anyhoo, I ended up reading the rest of the thread since and this caught my eye:

I watch shows like BSG for entertainment, and escapism.

What I want to know is...since when is BSG considered escapism? Or even entertainment (in a certain context)? Don't get me wrong...I love Battlestar Galactica. In fact, I think it may be the best show on television, maybe ever, but escapism?

This is a show that covers (in a much more realistic manner, as opposed to something like 24) torture, suicide bombings, rape, rape as a form of torture, terrorism, morality, religious morality, genocide, abortion, politics, bigotry and a whole host of issues almost every other show on television shies away from for obvious reasons. It is relentlessly bleak and depressing, and is by far the darkest show I've ever seen on tv (why I love it by the way). I've just never heard someone refer to it as escapism before. It's always the complete opposite. O_o

Oh, and whitestang is correct in that the people in that picture were only stand-ins. Even if Moore didn't know who all of the Final Four were when they shot that episode, it doesn't really change the fact that they were only stand-ins, and that picture means absolutely nothing. Also, if they weren't even able to keep Starbuck's death a secret for just a few episodes, do you really think they'd be able to keep something as huge as who the Final Four were secret for half the season? Hogan has even said that they stopped giving the actors scripts ahead of time as a way to control what got out.

What I want to know is...since when is BSG considered escapism? Or even entertainment (in a certain context)?

You do realize that BSG is only a TV show, right? :rolleyes:

First off, if BSG wasn't 'entertaining', it wouldn't be as popular as it is and would most likely not even be on the air. Second, 'Escapism'... the avoidance of reality by absorption of the mind in entertainment or in an imaginative situation, activity, etc. Pretty much all fiction fits this bill eh?

This is one of the most asinine statements I think I've read on this forum. You do realize that BSG is only a TV show, right? :rolleyes:


Hey, this is precisely the problem we've been discussing. No need to call the poster's opinion "asinine", c'mon.:rolleyes: We didn't use to see that sort of thing here. He makes a valid point about this show consistently swinging for the fences and aiming a little higher than most in terms of subject matter. In that regard, it's far less of mere escapism than most everything else on the tube ('24' being a great example of mindless adrenaline rush, careening from one preposterous cliffhanger to the next, with no real message I can discern other than torture is always the best way to extract information). You're intended to have to devote a little more time and effort to these carefully constructed allegories and metaphors reflecting our society today, as all good science fiction does. This is a thinking-man's show, which is unfortunately reflected in its ratings. But let's try to respect others' opinions without resorting to blatant insults, shall we? No need for that here.

This is one of the most asinine statements I think I've read on this forum. You do realize that BSG is only a TV show, right? :rolleyes:

First off, if BSG wasn't 'entertaining', it wouldn't be as popular as it is and would most likely not even be on the air. Second, 'Escapism'... the avoidance of reality by absorption of the mind in entertainment or in an imaginative situation, activity, etc. Pretty much all fiction fits this bill eh?
agreed despite what the pc police may say.

Hey, this is precisely the problem we've been discussing. No need to call the poster's opinion "asinine", c'mon.:rolleyes: We didn't use to see that sort of thing here. He makes a valid point about this show consistently swinging for the fences and aiming a little higher than most in terms of subject matter. In that regard, it's far less of mere escapism than most everything else on the tube ('24' being a great example of mindless adrenaline rush, careening from one preposterous cliffhanger to the next, with no real message I can discern other than torture is always the best way to extract information). You're intended to have to devote a little more time and effort to these carefully constructed allegories and metaphors reflecting our society today, as all good science fiction does. This is a thinking-man's show, which is unfortunately reflected in its ratings. But let's try to respect others' opinions without resorting to blatant insults, shall we? No need for that here.

Okay, just for you Archiguy, I removed that line.

The final cylon is a woman...

So who will she be? If we go by the understanding that the production photo wasn't of the actual five (since they hadn't picked them yet), but represented them, then we already have one woman and the three guys.

The last, and missing one, is a woman. Anyone want to compile a list of all the main and secondary female characters?

Okay, just for you Archiguy, I removed that line.

I thank you, and Mr. Moob thanks you (I'm speaking for him, of course; maybe Moob ain't in a thankin' mood. Fun to read that line aloud, though. :p ).

Seriously though, I would say that in terms of pure escapism with no higher thought in mind than providing an adrenaline-fueled escape from reality, this show really doesn't aim that low, and thankfully so, IMO. The TV landscape is riddled with shows like that; this one's subject matter aspires to something more, wouldn't you say? That's why we're here every week dissecting it. Don't see that happening with the CSI's and L&O's of the small screen. Nothing there to discuss, really, except how hot the guest stars are that week or something similarly fluffy. We want more from this show, and we usually get it if we're paying attention.

The final cylon is a woman...

So who will she be? If we go by the understanding that the production photo wasn't of the actual five (since they hadn't picked them yet), but represented them, then we already have one woman and the three guys.

The last, and missing one, is a woman. Anyone want to compile a list of all the main and secondary female characters?
How exactly do we know it's a woman?? Not that it can't be, but where are you getting your assumption from?

As for the other person's "nit" about the production stills - that's not the episode, they were all blown-out glowing people in the ep! They weren't identifiable as specific people at all! That's like saying you have a nit with Star Wars because production stills show that Chewbacca is a man in a furry suit.

I thank you, and Mr. Moob thanks you (I'm speaking for him, of course; maybe Moob ain't in a thankin' mood. Fun to read that line aloud, though. :p ).

Seriously though, I would say that in terms of pure escapism with no higher thought in mind than providing an adrenaline-fueled escape from reality, this show really doesn't aim that low, and thankfully so, IMO. The TV landscape is riddled with shows like that; this one's subject matter aspires to something more, wouldn't you say? That's why we're here every week dissecting it. Don't see that happening with the CSI's and L&O's of the small screen. Nothing there to discuss, really, except how hot the guest stars are that week or something similarly fluffy. We want more from this show, and we usually get it if we're paying attention.

No where in the definition of 'escapism' does it refer to having a lack of quality. Something can be quality and still be entertaining and escapism. I don't care for the CSI's and L&O's. In fact, I'm just completely burned out on both Cop shows and Doctor shows, and have been for years. Which is probably why I have such a low tolorance threshold for all of the Roslin cancer stuff.

The final cylon is a woman...

So who will she be? If we go by the understanding that the production photo wasn't of the actual five (since they hadn't picked them yet), but represented them, then we already have one woman and the three guys.

The last, and missing one, is a woman. Anyone want to compile a list of all the main and secondary female characters?

Don't know for sure it will be a woman, but:

"The children of the one reborn shall find their own country"

Still fuzzy on whether this "one reborn" could really refer to Starbuck. If she isn't a Cylon and didn't pay a visit to a resurrection ship, yet she was most likely blown to smithereens when her Viper exploded, then she was "reborn" somehow. Since the Cylons were after her eggs....thus her "children".....

Don't know for sure it will be a woman, but:

"The children of the one reborn shall find their own country"

Still fuzzy on whether this "one reborn" could really refer to Starbuck. If she isn't a Cylon and didn't pay a visit to a resurrection ship, yet she was most likely blown to smithereens when her Viper exploded, then she was "reborn" somehow. Since the Cylons were after her eggs....thus her "children".....

That works. But also, Roslin (President=leader; citizens=children) could have been "reborn" during her remission from cancer, and her leadership during a particularly trying time is one of the reasons they're all still in the hunt for their own country (the 13th tribe=earth).

Some people say your reborn when you find the one true god.

Some people say your reborn when you find the one true god.

In which case the children of the reborn could mean Baltar and his followers. But we're all over the map here. This is the problem with prophecies. It's far easier to make them fit past events, than it is future ones.

Wow, I found this from Oct '06:

Since we do not know the timeframe for the series, I was wondering how the series will end. How about:

They find Earth, and the people living here today (meaning "us") are either:

1. Human-Cylon hybrids or
2. Cylon decendants (who have learned to procreate).

How exactly do we know it's a woman?? Not that it can't be, but where are you getting your assumption from?

As for the other person's "nit" about the production stills - that's not the episode, they were all blown-out glowing people in the ep! They weren't identifiable as specific people at all! That's like saying you have a nit with Star Wars because production stills show that Chewbacca is a man in a furry suit.

Well it's just an assumption; that they already cast the final five as 2 women and 3 men, then used stand ins for the five in the temple.

We're not supposed to be able to tell who they are on the TV (even gender), but the production photo clearly shows 2 women and 3 men. It's all conjecture, but why go through the trouble of having a mix like that when you could just use all guys or gals.

Don't know for sure it will be a woman, but:

"The children of the one reborn shall find their own country"

Still fuzzy on whether this "one reborn" could really refer to Starbuck. If she isn't a Cylon and didn't pay a visit to a resurrection ship, yet she was most likely blown to smithereens when her Viper exploded, then she was "reborn" somehow. Since the Cylons were after her eggs....thus her "children".....


very good catch!

But I do think we're headed for a conclusion that involves Baltar. I'm seeing it as he is reborn and forgiven for his sins. Head Six is always going on about his destiny, and his path does seem one of sin, and possibly, finally retribution.

I've only been able to get my hands on S2, and have watched 4 out of the 20 so far. (I'm also following S4).

Can someone please explain to me what/where Kobal is and what/where is Caprica? It's Caprica, and not New Caprica, right? New Caprica comes later. Wasn't Caprica where the original Cylon attack happened? Still some humans left there... Starbuck has the Arrow, and just met what's-his-name...

Thanks in advance.

I've only been able to get my hands on S2, and have watched 4 out of the 20 so far. (I'm also following S4).

Can someone please explain to me what/where Kobal is and what/where is Caprica? It's Caprica, and not New Caprica, right? New Caprica comes later. Wasn't Caprica where the original Cylon attack happened? Still some humans left there... Starbuck has the Arrow, and just met what's-his-name...

Thanks in advance.

Man, you really need to go back and watch the mini-series first, and then the seasons in order. Bringing you up to speed to watch season 2 cold would take several pages. Netflix has all of it. I would bet that Blockbuster does to.

You do realize that BSG is only a TV show, right? :rolleyes:



What?

Next thing you're going to say is that there's no Santa Claus.


You are kidding, right? :D

Man, you really need to go back and watch the mini-series first, and then the seasons in order. Bringing you up to speed to watch season 2 cold would take several pages. Netflix has all of it. I would bet that Blockbuster does to.

Yeah, I'll second that. This is one show where you want to follow events from the beginning. Much less confusing that way. I've got two DVD sets of the mini/1st season making the rounds on loan right now. After that, they're hopelessly hooked and don't mind springing for the rest. ;)

The children of the reborn could mean the children Athena, Chief Tyrol had, that we know of, we are still missing the fifth... Could be Dee if it is a woman, I don't think Roslin is the final cylon. Starbuck is too obvious and I don't know who else could be (I was also suspicious of the one that the six killed, but she's dead now lol).

BTW how easy Six killed that woman, it was like a bump in her head and she was dead like nothing, I guess she used her super cylon strength..

Kudos for having Major Kira from DS9 in the show, at first I didn't recognized her with her ugly teeth and bad hair, but when we saw her after she died on the boat I surely recognized her.. (and not paying attention to the guest stars on the beginning).

So, the brunnette Six is the Six's boss? I'm still a bit confused about that, is like Sharons and Boomers right? they think different?

The one I'm looking at one that page is NOT a frame from the episode, but rather a production photograph. In the episode, all of the robed figures are hidden in light and unidentifiable. For all we know, the people in robes could have been pulled off the street, given $20, and asked to stand there in a white robe.Cool! I couldn't remember what they looked like in the episode and it seemed as though it would be so easy to obscure their identities completely. My faith in their post production is restored, and Battlestar Wiki should be ashamed of themselves for posting that production photo.

Why is it that people think that "The children of the one reborn shall find their own country" should be any more meaningful than "Then shall the maidens rejoice at the dance"? Personally, I think that its all just prattle.

BTW how easy Six killed that woman, it was like a bump in her head and she was dead like nothing, I guess she used her super cylon strength..


Yeah super human strength, then Anders manhandles her into a submissive pose, but they were all too busy to notice his super strength, or they just assumed he's a big male.

He was wearing teh Axe deodorant. :)

I've only been able to get my hands on S2, and have watched 4 out of the 20 so far. (I'm also following S4).

Can someone please explain to me what/where Kobal is and what/where is Caprica? It's Caprica, and not New Caprica, right? New Caprica comes later. Wasn't Caprica where the original Cylon attack happened? Still some humans left there... Starbuck has the Arrow, and just met what's-his-name...

Thanks in advance.The miniseries, the pre-season-4 movie Razor, and all four seasons are available for purchase at Amazon Unbox (and, I think, at the iTunes store); they can be downloaded for playback on PC, portable devices or directly into networked TiVos. Obviously they're not free, and I personally would much rather watch the DVD sets (which have got to all be available at your local Blockbuster and from Netflix), but that's one way. You really should go back and watch the whole thing, from the beginning.

Yeah super human strength, then Anders manhandles her into a submissive pose, but they were all too busy to notice his super strength, or they just assumed he's a big male.Starbuck fought a Six on Caprica, when she went to fetch the Arrow of Apollo. She got her ass royally kicked, but she got her licks in. They're strong, but not undefeatable.

No where in the definition of 'escapism' does it refer to having a lack of quality. Something can be quality and still be entertaining and escapism.
Yes, but if you take a look at the great works of fiction, you'll find very few that are completely escapist and most that are escapist are children's novels which also appealed to adults. Some science fiction was considered escapist when it was written but became social relevant years later as society and technology changed. It's hard to classify any work as completely escapist because it's next to impossible to write any fiction in a vacuum. Some smartypants is always going to find hidden meaning in anything!

I don't care for the CSI's and L&O's. In fact, I'm just completely burned out on both Cop shows and Doctor shows, and have been for years. Which is probably why I have such a low tolorance threshold for all of the Roslin cancer stuff.
I'm the opposite. I gave up on almost all television in the early 80's because it was silly, gutless and irrelevant to my life. I know people loved Fantasy Island and Love Boat and Dukes of Hazard but I'd rather rent a movie. I was very surprised when I got HDTV and found out how much network television has improved over the years (that was the only HD available at the time).

Unfortunately, they are identifiable, which is the problem.

It's only a problem if you go off trying to identify them for no materially relevant reasons. It's like complaining that Jake Lloyd doesn't sound at all like Darth Vader.

The 6 really didn't fight back against Anders either, she knew what she did was wrong, she just wanted her revenge for being drowned. We've really seen it before with the 6's - the 6 from Pegasus getting her revenge, then later not wanting to live any more.

Regarding the hybrid's lines, I do think they have meaning. The problem with prophecies is they can be interpreted a lot of different ways. Wouldn't it be funny if the little amateur detective show we witnessed between Starbuck/Six/Leoben turned out to be the wrong interpretation?

And hi, moob! I know you from somewhere. :) I was pretty disappointed to find that last night's repeat also had the SD teaser. Why couldn't SciFi fix that??

Why is it that people think that "The children of the one reborn shall find their own country" should be any more meaningful than "Then shall the maidens rejoice at the dance"? Personally, I think that its all just prattle.

....and that could be! That's the fun of a show like this: always keep 'em guessing and coming back for more.

Most likely the only thing the hybrid said that counts is what happened after the blood hit the goo, she touched Starbuck, and seemed to be lucid.

It's only a problem if you go off trying to identify them for no materially relevant reasons. It's like complaining that Jake Lloyd doesn't sound at all like Darth Vader.It's not a problem at all, since that photograph isn't what aired, and the post-production scene totally obscured their identities. As such, that photograph is completely irrelevant, since it's not properly part of the show.

Had it aired like that, with chins and hands and whole faces visible, I'd have had a valid beef :).

Regarding the hybrid's lines, I do think they have meaning. The problem with prophecies is they can be interpreted a lot of different ways. Wouldn't it be funny if the little amateur detective show we witnessed between Starbuck/Six/Leoben turned out to be the wrong interpretation?I made that point before, at the end of the post where I gave my transcription the scene (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13842848#post13842848). People in Greek and Roman mythology are always coming to bad ends due to misinterpretation of predictions by oracles and sybils, since they never render those predictions in plain language.

I still think that 99% of the non-maintenance-related stuff that the Hybrids babble is pure nonsense. Even if they are prophetic, "The children of the one reborn shall find their own country" hardly seems to be very much on point, or useful to the Colonials or Cylons. I mean, what can we say, but "Good for them, whoever they might be." Not nearly as helpful as "The missing three will give you the five, who have come from the home of the 13th". But if it amuses you to ponder its myriad possible meanings, by all means, enjoy :)!

The missing three (D'anna), will give you the five (the final five), this has alredy happened, although after D'anna saw the final five was boxed right away and didn't tell the others who the 5 were, so If they find the ship(s) where the boxed D'annas are they could identify the final 5, I'm sure she calls out the four we already know..

I made that point before, at the end of the post where I gave my transcription the scene (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13842848#post13842848). People in Greek and Roman mythology are always coming to bad ends due to misinterpretation of predictions by oracles and sybils, since they never render those predictions in plain language.

I still think that 99% of the non-maintenance-related stuff that the Hybrids babble is pure nonsense. Even if they are prophetic, "The children of the one reborn shall find their own country" hardly seems to be very much on point, or useful to the Colonials or Cylons. I mean, what can we say, but "Good for them, whoever they might be!" Not nearly as helpful as "The missing three will give you the five, who have come from the home of the 13th". But if it amuses you, enjoy pondering its myriad possible meanings, enjoy :).

I'm sorry, I missed that post. I didn't mean to step on your toes. I read several BSG boards and it's often hard to keep track what points have been made where.

It's not a problem at all, since that photograph isn't what aired, and the post-production scene totally obscured their identities. As such, that photograph is completely irrelevant, since it's not properly part of the show.

Had it aired like that, with chins and hands and whole faces visible, I'd have had a valid beef :).

I didn't read all your posts... I thought you were one of the folks pulling the obnoxious fanboy crap over the glow people pics. Now that I went back and carefully read your posts against their posts I see that your on this side of the argument. Sorry for my zealotry.

Sci-fi would have twice as many fans if it weren't for regular folks not wanting to be associated with dweebish fanboyism.

The biggest thing that hurts any discussion of BSG are folks who seem really intent on keeping the show canonical. This is a show that's pretty trippy, and I'll be satisfied just with a coherent ending.

Man, you really need to go back and watch the mini-series first, and then the seasons in order. Bringing you up to speed to watch season 2 cold would take several pages. Netflix has all of it. I would bet that Blockbuster does to.

I saw the mini-series, just never finished S1. I have S2 right now. If you aren't going to tell me, that's ok. I'll figure it out. Thanks anyway.

I saw the mini-series, just never finished S1. I have S2 right now. If you aren't going to tell me, that's ok. I'll figure it out. Thanks anyway.I think that Rutgar was only trying to be helpful by suggesting that you go back and watch everything you skipped. I believe that both he and I are urging you to do that because we expect that it will ultimately increase the satisfaction that you get from watching the series. If you're dead-set against trying to watch all of the episodes that you missed (and the final few episodes of season 1 are particularly well worth catching), I'd suggest doing your research at the Battlestar Wiki. For instance, your questions about the difference between the various characters from the Cylon Model Number Six "clan" are probably all answered by the Number Six article (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Number_Six) on the Wiki. Hopefully your poking around there won't ruin the suspense of the series for you.

If you don't go back and watch, you're missing lots of incidents and reveals of the past that explain the motives of the characters in the series later.

It's only a problem if you go off trying to identify them for no materially relevant reasons. It's like complaining that Jake Lloyd doesn't sound at all like Darth Vader.


but jake lloyd is vader as a kid....all kids sound different....thats why they are kids.

I think that Rutgar was only trying to be helpful by suggesting that you go back and watch everything you skipped. I believe that both he and I are urging you to do that because we expect that it will ultimately increase the satisfaction that you get from watching the series. Hopefully your poking around there won't ruin the suspense of the series for you.

If you don't go back and watch, you're missing lots of incidents and reveals of the past that explain the motives of the characters in the series later.

I've never watched a series that so completely required what Rutgar and michaeltscott have suggested here. It really is a series that should be seen complete and in-order; with your own mind deciphering the data. :)

This thread is not a good place to be until one has caught up to current events.

JMO

Any significance to the scene where Cara and crew are on the raptor searching? She says "this is the place, I can hear it."? Leoban says something like "the unstruck(?) music vibrates in all of us, few can hear it, Cara is one of the few". Could that be music along the lines of the Watchtower tune that 4 of the 5 heard? An indication that Cara is the last of the 5?.

I saw the mini-series, just never finished S1. I have S2 right now. If you aren't going to tell me, that's ok. I'll figure it out. Thanks anyway.

Kobol: Original home of the 13 colonies before they left. 12 went together, the 13th (Earth) went their own way.

Caprica: One of the 12 Colonies...it was nuked all to hell by the Cylons and was occupied until the Cylons decided on a new strategy to deal with humans.

New Caprica: A rocky, cold, wet planet that was centered in a radiation field that made surveying difficult. Humanity settled there on Baltar's presidential campaign promise to find a new home. It was felt the Cylons couldn't find it. Then Gina 6 (6 that was captured on Pegasus and raped/tortured) took the nuke that Baltar gave her and nuked the 'vacation dome' ship. This made New Caprica visible to the Cylons.

The Adamas (in command of Galactica and Pegasus) and the rest of the fleet jumped out of the system and left those on New Caprica behind.

The Cylons occupied the planet and killed off resistance but stopped short of all-out genocide.

The Adama's returned and freed most of the humans on New Caprica and humanity set out once again in search of Earth.

You do realize that BSG is only a TV show, right? :rolleyes:

First off, if BSG wasn't 'entertaining', it wouldn't be as popular as it is and would most likely not even be on the air. Second, 'Escapism'... the avoidance of reality by absorption of the mind in entertainment or in an imaginative situation, activity, etc. Pretty much all fiction fits this bill eh?

Well, despite all the critical acclaim, BSG isn't very popular. The ratings aren't very good, and it probably would have been canceled by now if SciFi didn't want to lose a show of this caliber (One reason they're pushing for Caprica now that BSG's ending, when it was dead in the water not too long ago).

Yes, it is indeed only a tv show. But it is a tv show that's built for a post-9/11 era. It's a tv show that was meant to reflect what's going on in our world today (Moore even said as much, and it's why they avoided many of the SciFi cliches like aliens or space outfits or technical jargon), and by your very definition (the avoidance of reality by absorption of the mind in entertainment or in an imaginative situation, activity, etc.), it isn't escapism. Battlestar Galactica forces you to think about the world we live in and it draws direct parallels to it. If you want escapism in the science fiction realm, you can watch Firefly or Atlantis or Lost or Heroes (I watch/ed all those shows by the way). The original BSG was indeed escapist, but the new one clearly isn't.

That comment may be asinine to you, but please, find me an instance where a reputable reviewer calls BSG escapism. Just one instance...anywhere. As I said before, of all the reviews I've read for this show, you're the first person, as far as I've seen, to call BSG escapist. It's even been called the only show on television to, "dare tackle the war on terror" (Guardian). I'm not exactly sure how a show with that pedigree can possibly be called escapism.

As an example: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NWIyMTk3NDgwMjg5NzBmMzcxOTUzYjdjYzkyZDRiODM=

It is especially nice to note where that article comes from, seeing as many have claimed that it took a hard left in season 3.

I thank you, and Mr. Moob thanks you (I'm speaking for him, of course; maybe Moob ain't in a thankin' mood. Fun to read that line aloud, though. :p ).
LOL@Mr. Moob. I kinda like that myself.


And hi, moob! I know you from somewhere. :)
Hiya! I'm guessing the HD-DVD boards. :p

Well, despite all the critical acclaim, BSG isn't very popular. The ratings aren't very good, and it probably would have been canceled by now if SciFi didn't want to lose a show of this caliber (One reason they're pushing for Caprica now that BSG's ending, when it was dead in the water not too long ago).

Yes, it is indeed only a tv show. But it is a tv show that's built for a post-9/11 era. It's a tv show that was meant to reflect what's going on in our world today (Moore even said as much, and it's why they avoided many of the SciFi cliches like aliens or space outfits or technical jargon), and by your very definition (the avoidance of reality by absorption of the mind in entertainment or in an imaginative situation, activity, etc.), it isn't escapism. Battlestar Galactica forces you to think about the world we live in and it draws direct parallels to it. If you want escapism in the science fiction realm, you can watch Firefly or Atlantis or Lost or Heroes (I watch/ed all those shows by the way). The original BSG was indeed escapist, but the new one clearly isn't.

That comment may be asinine to you, but please, find me an instance where a reputable reviewer calls BSG escapism. Just one instance...anywhere. As I said before, of all the reviews I've read for this show, you're the first person, as far as I've seen, to call BSG escapist. It's even been called the only show on television to, "dare tackle the war on terror" (Guardian). I'm not exactly sure how a show with that pedigree can possibly be called escapism.

As an example: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NWIyMTk3NDgwMjg5NzBmMzcxOTUzYjdjYzkyZDRiODM=

It is especially nice to note where that article comes from, seeing as many have claimed that it took a hard left in season 3.


LOL@Mr. Moob. I kinda like that myself.


Hiya! I'm guessing the HD-DVD boards. :p

I would agree with your point regarding BSG and "escapism." But I guess if a person wants to escape to a post-apocalyptic world where humanity is under the constant threat of extinction, that's their business. :D

And nope, I believe I know you from Skiffy. ToA here. :)

He was wearing teh Axe deodorant. :)

LOL!!! :D

I would agree with your point regarding BSG and "escapism." But I guess if a person wants to escape to a post-apocalyptic world where humanity is under the constant threat of extinction, that's their business. :D

Is there any better escape from the source of my problems than the annihilation of the human race? It would be like a desert island, only with no lingering fear a ship might come by and attempt to rescue me.

es·cap·ism n. - The tendency to escape from daily reality or routine by indulging in daydreaming, fantasy, or entertainment.

Now tell me how this doesn't apply to watching BSG, or any other fictional show or movie for that matter.

Iteki,

Thanks much. I have every intention of going back and watching everything from the beginning. I've been watching from time to time from the start, but never had the time to catch up till now.

To everyone else, I mean no offense. This may or may not be a good place to be, but I am here nevertheless and following your conversations here. If I have an occasional question (with respect) I don't see how it can hurt anything, and I appreciate the answers very much.

Thank you.

Why is it that people think that "The children of the one reborn shall find their own country" should be any more meaningful than "Then shall the maidens rejoice at the dance"? Personally, I think that its all just prattle.

Perhaps, but she did repeat the "children of the one reborn" line about 3 or 4 times ...

Perhaps, but she did repeat the "children of the one reborn" line about 3 or 4 times ...It was very cyclical--she repeated everything over and over except for "The city devours the land" and "But you are a spark of God's Fire", each of which she said once.

es·cap·ism n. - The tendency to escape from daily reality or routine by indulging in daydreaming, fantasy, or entertainment.
If any kind of entertainment that takes me out of my daily reality is escapism then that would include pretty much everything on television for me.

I would agree with your point regarding BSG and "escapism." But I guess if a person wants to escape to a post-apocalyptic world where humanity is under the constant threat of extinction, that's their business. :D

And nope, I believe I know you from Skiffy. ToA here. :)
Ah! I never would have figured you out from "loco." :p I thought it was from the HD-DVD board since that's the only other board I've really posted on here. Skiffy makes much more sense.

And I suppose you're right on the first part as well.

If any kind of entertainment that takes me out of my daily reality is escapism then that would include pretty much everything on television for me.
Yeah. The news isn't usually a part of my routine, so I suppose that's a form of escapism as well. Who doesn't dream of having skills like Kobe when they see his highlights?

Perhaps, but she did repeat the "children of the one reborn" line about 3 or 4 times ...

Mark me down in the column that the quote above does mean something in the context of the show. Perhaps it is a little thing, but I think it's an easter egg that will have some meaning once the show is all done.

Mark me down in the column that the quote above does mean something in the context of the show. Perhaps it is a little thing, but I think it's an easter egg that will have some meaning once the show is all done.

Well, you can always start enumerating who has been reborn on the show and who has a kid. Of course, that leads you pretty quickly to Sharon Agathon.

Starbuck reborn, but no kid.

Baltar, arguably rebord (I don't buy it, but the argument is make-able); no kid.

I'd offer that it is possible to include the Chief, since it was never established that the Chief's suicide dream was really a dream. It may have been a memory. Maybe that's how the final five got kicked out of the group: they broke CyGod's commandment. After all, that's how D'Anna got kicked out (OK, she broke a whole slew of commandments, but still...).

On the uptick, it's a pretty short list of characters who currently qualify for the prophecy. And, of course, as someone mentioned these prophecies are a real invitation to misinterpret and subsequently fail.

Meh. I just hope the criipled basestar's return with Starbuck heralds season four shifting into gear. I can really do without yet another one of Baltar's droning sermons. If his voice quiets babies and dying people, that's a sad commentary on the state of the fleet. By far the most "ugh" part of this season so far.

A few explosions would make me forget that, however. I'm easily bought off.

A few explosions??

Iteki,

Thanks much. I have every intention of going back and watching everything from the beginning. I've been watching from time to time from the start, but never had the time to catch up till now.

To everyone else, I mean no offense. This may or may not be a good place to be, but I am here nevertheless and following your conversations here. If I have an occasional question (with respect) I don't see how it can hurt anything, and I appreciate the answers very much.

Thank you.

No problem...we were all new once. It really is a good idea to check out battlewiki or even wikipedia.org if you have some spare time. It can help clarify things even for those of us that have watched every episode from the mini-series on.

Well, you can always start enumerating who has been reborn on the show and who has a kid. Of course, that leads you pretty quickly to Sharon Agathon.

Starbuck reborn, but no kid.

Baltar, arguably rebord (I don't buy it, but the argument is make-able); no kid.

I'd offer that it is possible to include the Chief, since it was never established that the Chief's suicide dream was really a dream. It may have been a memory. Maybe that's how the final five got kicked out of the group: they broke CyGod's commandment. After all, that's how D'Anna got kicked out (OK, she broke a whole slew of commandments, but still...).

On the uptick, it's a pretty short list of characters who currently qualify for the prophecy. And, of course, as someone mentioned these prophecies are a real invitation to misinterpret and subsequently fail.You're being way too literal for interpretation of a prophecy. On the other hand, you're not being literal enough. The phrase was "children of the reborn will find their"--that's plural, and I don't think there've been any major characters introduced with more than a single living child. Anyone, why would one (or two or three or six) biological children of a single person need "their own country"?

I think that Baltar certainly does qualify, as someone "reborn" in religion. His figurative "children" would be his pathetic followers. Another interpretation might be that mankind is somehow (or will be) reborn, with the Cylons being their "children"--dialog in the series has already referred to them as such on more than one occasion. "Reborn" can be plural, referring to all of humanity.

Iteki,

Thanks much. I have every intention of going back and watching everything from the beginning. I've been watching from time to time from the start, but never had the time to catch up till now.

To everyone else, I mean no offense. This may or may not be a good place to be, but I am here nevertheless and following your conversations here. If I have an occasional question (with respect) I don't see how it can hurt anything, and I appreciate the answers very much.

Thank you.

People don't mind answering questions, but nobody wants to spoil anything for you. The big plot reveals, reversals, and twists are part of the enjoyment of the show and are best discovered organically as you go along. More fun for you that way.

People don't mind answering questions, but nobody wants to spoil anything for you. The big plot reveals, reversals, and twists are part of the enjoyment of the show and are best discovered organically as you go along. More fun for you that way.

....kind of like telling someone who Luke Skywalker's grandma's son is.

You're being way too literal for interpretation of a prophecy. On the other hand, you're not being literal enough. The phrase was "children of the reborn will find their"--that's plural, and I don't think there've been any major characters introduced with more than a single living child. Anyone, why would one (or two or three or six) biological children of a single person need "their own country"?


We really haven't heard the word "country" used in the context of the show in the way we understand it; in fact, that may be the only time it's ever been used. In BSG's universe, we understand "country" to mean world. It's a common conceit in sci-fi for other worlds to be unified; only our earth is fractured up into many different countries and interest groups. Maybe in this case, it's more akin to Star Trek's "The Undiscovered Country" or some such, a more open-ended use of the word.

That said, perhaps the "prophecy" refers to the "children" of Baltar, that is to mean the monotheists, eventually breaking off and forming a society based on that religious concept.

I think that Baltar certainly does qualify, as someone "reborn" in religion. His figurative "children" would be his pathetic followers. Another interpretation might be that mankind is somehow (or will be) reborn, with the Cylons being their "children"--dialog in the series has already referred to them as such on more than one occasion. "Reborn" can be plural, referring to all of humanity.Forget the second point--I just reviewed what she said and it was "the one reborn". Not humanity. Baltar's followers would now be my only guess.

Forget the second point--I just reviewed what she said and it was "the one reborn". Not humanity. Baltar's followers would now be my only guess.

Athena's Child maybe?

cant we just get back to blowin up things....is that too much to ask....this is now like a show my granma would like.

Who doesn't dream of having skills like Kobe when they see his highlights?

Michael Jordan

cant we just get back to blowin up things....is that too much to ask....this is now like a show my granma would like.

Then your "granma" sounds like a very smart lady who prefers subtlety to sledgehammer, nuance to napalm, allegory to action. It sounds like you would do well, young grasshopper, to follow her lead in choosing which TV shows to watch. This one, however, may not be exactly what you're looking for. ;)

Athena's Child maybe?Again, she said "children...will find their", which makes it sound like a group (or at least more than a single child).

cant we just get back to blowin up things....is that too much to ask....this is now like a show my granma would like.There were quite a few really nice explosions in the Cylon battlefield this past week :).

Then your "granma" sounds like a very smart lady who prefers subtlety to sledgehammer, nuance to napalm, allegory to action. It sounds like you would do well, young grasshopper, to follow her lead in choosing which TV shows to watch. This one, however, may not be exactly what you're looking for. ;)

:D

cant we just get back to blowin up things....is that too much to ask....this is now like a show my granma would like.
If you get tired of watching the soap opera with Grandma.
Just pop in "Kobols last gleaming" it will get you through the filler eps, at least till they move the story along. Also careful what you post (flame suit required) since some view this show like a religion, and do not like to see others criticize any part of it. :D

Anyone, why would one (or two or three or six) biological children of a single person need "their own country"?

Where exactly is the cut-off on that? There's a pretty good argument that 39,000 people don't need a country, either. Ask the Hmong.

Am I being too literal? Probably. It is an essential part of geektitude.

Truth is the writers are going to write the most compelling ending without serious regard to all this setup. As I said before, I will be content with a coherent ending.

I think that Baltar certainly does qualify, as someone "reborn" in religion. His figurative "children" would be his pathetic followers. Another interpretation might be that mankind is somehow (or will be) reborn, with the Cylons being their "children"--dialog in the series has already referred to them as such on more than one occasion. "Reborn" can be plural, referring to all of humanity.

This is a buyable argument. Perhaps when all is said and done the polytheists and the Balarites go their separate ways. From a survival standpoint, it would help humanity's odds.

it's more akin to Star Trek's "The Undiscovered Country" or some such, a more open-ended use of the word.

Didn't Baltar use that exact phrase in his radio sermon?

Thanks Iteki and Archi,

I do understand that “it is for my own good”, but alas… it is too lake for me. (smile)

I’m way too buggered up now. I tried the original season for awhile but lost my DVR… then I lost track of the series. I’d tuned in for some of S2. And none of S3. Then, the DVR was back and I watched maybe 10 – 12 of the final S3 trying my best to watch them in order, and most of them were up to the S3 finale (Starbuck “dying” and all). Then of course I’m DVR’ing S4 and have been watching it from the beginning. And now I’m half way through S2.

Again, a (big smile).

I see many here watch and rewatch on a pretty regular basis. My interest in the show is so strong, I will start from the beginning again as soon as I get the disks. Till then I am thoroughly enjoying S2. After I finish S1, I will start o S3… in the meantime… while glued to S4.

Again, Iteki, your explanations were more than helpful to me. I will check your suggested links as well.

Take care, and thanks to all.