Iteki,

I have every intention of going back and watching everything from the beginning. I've been watching from time to time from the start, but never had the time to catch up till now.

To everyone else, I mean no offense. This may or may not be a good place to be, but I am here nevertheless and following your conversations here. If I have an occasional question (with respect) I don't see how it can hurt anything, and I appreciate the answers very much.

Thank you.

You are most welcome here. I would advise anyone who isn't up to date with season 4 to not read these "tomes". ;)
Cliff notes won't give you what experiencing the episodes can provide. Yes, even "filler" episodes. (a couple of which weren't very good, IMO) :)

Enjoy! That's what it's all about.

If you get tired of watching the soap opera with Grandma.
Just pop in "Kobols last gleaming" it will get you through the filler eps, at least till they move the story along. Also careful what you post (flame suit required) since some view this show like a religion, and do not like to see others criticize any part of it. :D

:D And genuflecting is not required.

Boom - Boom - Ka Boom! :eek:

Now, doesn't that feel better. ;)

You are most welcome here. I would advise anyone who isn't up to date with season 4 to not read these "tomes". ;)
Cliff notes won't give you what experiencing the episodes can provide. Yes, even "filler" episodes. :)

Enjoy! That's what it's all about.

Times 2....

Any significance to the scene where Cara and crew are on the raptor searching? She says "this is the place, I can hear it."? Leoban says something like "the unstruck(?) music vibrates in all of us, few can hear it, Cara is one of the few". Could that be music along the lines of the Watchtower tune that 4 of the 5 heard? An indication that Cara is the last of the 5?.

I think so.

Significantly, am I remembering right that Starbuck was presumed dead when the four became aware of the fact they were Cylons? Perhaps if Starbuck had been on Galactica with everyone else, she would have heard that music and then come to realise who she is.

This also explains how Leoben has come to be fascinated with her. Perhaps after removing her ovary (or whatever he did to her on Caprica) he came to realize who she is, perhaps on a subconscious level. How else do you explain his fascination with her?

My prediction? Anders and Starbuck will reignite their relationship and have the first pure Cylon child.

I just don't think Starbuck is the final cylon. It's too obvious. I think she is something else - they keep calling her an "angel". I think she is simply a different category - fully human, but a little bit more; something we have yet to define.

I mean, we don't just have human and cylon in this crazy show. Here are all the categories of "entities" that we have:

1. Human
2. 7 cylon models (1-6 and 8)
3. Final five (4 of whom are known)
4. Hybrids
5. Cylon raiders (alive and senscient?)
6. Cylon Heavy Raiders (alive and senscient?)
7. Cylon centurions (alive and sensicent?)
8. Cylon Basestars (alive and senscient?)
9. Human/Cylon halfbreeds (two of them)
10. Humans that appear to be able to project (Roslyn, Baltar, others?)
11. Starbuck (reborn?)

This also explains how Leoben has come to be fascinated with her. Perhaps after removing her ovary (or whatever he did to her on Caprica) he came to realize who she is, perhaps on a subconscious level. How else do you explain his fascination with her?



He became fascinated with her when she interrogated/tortured him on Galactica (they never met on Caprica, that was the black doctor model).

He sought her out on NEW Caprica and kept her locked up, hoping she would come to love him in time...but that um...didn't work out :-)

I guess unrequited love can make a Cylon do foolish things...just like humans :-)

I just don't think Starbuck is the final cylon. It's too obvious. I think she is something else - they keep calling her an "angel". I think she is simply a different category - fully human, but a little bit more; something we have yet to define.

I mean, we don't just have human and cylon in this crazy show. Here are all the categories of "entities" that we have:

1. Human
2. 7 cylon models (1-6 and 8)
3. Final five (4 of whom are known)
4. Hybrids
5. Cylon raiders (alive and senscient?)
6. Cylon Heavy Raiders (alive and senscient?)
7. Cylon centurions (alive and sensicent?)
8. Cylon Basestars (alive and senscient?)
9. Human/Cylon halfbreeds (two of them)
10. Humans that appear to be able to project (Roslyn, Baltar, others?)
11. Starbuck (reborn?)The Hybrids are the organic brains of Basestars--that's their purpose and their occasionally prophetic verbal ramblings are something they do incidentally, completely ignored by most of the "skin-jobs". Raiders and Heavy Raiders are known to have organic brains and parts, though who knows what their level of intelligence is; Boomer once implied that Raiders were somewhere on the level of trained dogs. Raiders are known to have willfully refused orders, causing the Cavil-lead faction to lobotomize many of them. I think that it's probable that Centurions have organic brains, though none have ever been shown to bleed, so their organic parts have to be minimal and localized. In response to the "Cavilites" lobotomizing Raiders, the Six-lead faction removed an electronic part from them called a "telencephalic inhibitor" in order to give them free will (telencephalons are the developmental precursor of our cerebrum); if they had electronic brains, they need not have been given the potential for free will, with the necessity of implanting little devices to keep them from acheiving self-awareness.

I think that it's probable that Centurions have organic brains, though none have ever been shown to bleed, so their organic parts have to be minimal and localized. In response to the "Cavilites" lobotomizing Raiders, the Six-lead faction removed an electronic part from them called a "telencephalic inhibitor" in order to give them free will (telencephalons are the developmental precursor of our cerebrum); if they had electronic brains, they need not have been given the potential for free will, with the necessity of implanting little devices to keep them from acheiving self-awareness.

I think the Centurions are fully mechanical. We've seen their heads blown open a few times and there's never been any blood. They've made a big deal about the Raiders being partly organic, but never any similar claims for the Centurions. The inhibitor device wouldn't indicate an organic component to a Centurion "brain" that I can see. It could act just like a governor on a car. Remove it and zoom. Finally, we have the statement from Six back in the miniseries about the "chrome toasters" - "Oh, they're still around. They have their uses." Indeed.

I think the Centurions are fully mechanical. We've seen their heads blown open a few times and there's never been any blood. They've made a big deal about the Raiders being partly organic, but never any similar claims for the Centurions. The inhibitor device wouldn't indicate an organic component to a Centurion "brain" that I can see. It could act just like a governor on a car. Remove it and zoom. Finally, we have the statement from Six back in the miniseries about the "chrome toasters" - "Oh, they're still around. They have their uses." Indeed.I respectfully agree to disagree. Again, if their brains are electronic, why give them the potential for self awareness? And why would the "governor" be given a name from organic neurobiology? Why would they give organic brains to the Raiders and Heavy Raiders and not to Centurions? Also, there's no reason to assume that their brains, electronic or organic, would be placed in their heads (even if they've shown one blown up, which I can't recall).

And I don't believe that quote proves anything, since the new model Centurions are greatly evolved from the models used in the war. We've seen the original models in action in flashbacks, and they aren't in use anymore.

No use arguing this point; we've had this discussion before. I've heard your reasoning and you've heard mine, and unless they actually show us a Centurion brain, or RDM makes a pronouncement about them being organic or electronic in a blog entry or podcast, we won't know for sure.

I respectfully agree to disagree. Again, if their brains are electronic, why give them the potential for self awareness? And why would the "governor" be given a name from organic neurobiology? Why would they give organic brains to the Raiders and Heavy Raiders and not to Centurions? Also, there's no reason to assume that their brains, electronic or organic, would be placed in their heads (even if they've shown one blown up, which I can't recall).


You might be right. I just base my conclusion on the fact that they've never been more than "muscle" to the skin-jobs, and Six referred to them as essentially, er, robots. As to them getting shot in the head, I think if you go back to that scene on Caprica where Helo blows two of them up with a mine and then finished one off with his sidearm, you'll see a head shot there; no blood 'n guts. Seems I remember another time or two, but can't pinpoint them right now; maybe the episode where they were rampaging thru Galactica(and spared Dee)...?

So where is the boxed '3'?

So where is the boxed '3'?

I have a feeling we're about to find out! Something tells me they're going to be a wee bit grumpy when they wake up and find out what Cavell's done.

I have a feeling we're about to find out! Something tells me they're going to be a wee bit grumpy when they wake up and find out what Cavell's done.

This is something that has been bugging me a little bit ever since they introduced the concept of being boxed. It appears that the 3 line is the only entire line to be boxed. Is this the only way boxing works? When they talked about it originally, it seemed that they boxed individual skinjobs, and not the entire line, for acting outside of their programming. And when they introduced it, it seemed like they had actually boxed cylons before.

But now they have boxed the entire line of 3s. I guess I am confused that they knew so much about it without every actually boxing any cylon before.

I also remember thinking that they were going to use the concept of boxed cylons to explain why we don't see all 12 models - but instead they went with the 5 missing models.

I also remember thinking that they were going to use the concept of boxed cylons to explain why we don't see all 12 models - but instead they went with the 5 missing models.

That doesn't inherently exclude the idea that the model lines of the final five were not boxed. It is possible they were boxed and that the ones we know in fact somehow escaped being boxed.

This is something that has been bugging me a little bit ever since they introduced the concept of being boxed. It appears that the 3 line is the only entire line to be boxed. Is this the only way boxing works? When they talked about it originally, it seemed that they boxed individual skinjobs, and not the entire line, for acting outside of their programming. And when they introduced it, it seemed like they had actually boxed cylons before.

But now they have boxed the entire line of 3s. I guess I am confused that they knew so much about it without every actually boxing any cylon before.

I also remember thinking that they were going to use the concept of boxed cylons to explain why we don't see all 12 models - but instead they went with the 5 missing models.

Or that previous cyclones humanoid models had been boxed, after all, the current ones had to come from somewhere, and the cylon culture and war flashbacks tend to point us to years of experimenting. It seems the Centurions and Raiders had the capacity for sentience, so they might have been boxed at one time, before being reprogrammed.

I think Cavil said something to the effect that her line had shown those reckless tendencies before, and thus the whole line was unstable in his view. So they were all boxed.

What I want to know is how the hell was this accomplished? It seems the only way would be to take out every 3, and box their consciousness before they downloaded. Wouldn’t a few escape?

I forget, do cylons have any group consciousness, or is each individual really individual?

Or that previous cyclones humanoid models had been boxed, after all, the current ones had to come from somewhere, and the cylon culture and war flashbacks tend to point us to years of experimenting. It seems the Centurions and Raiders had the capacity for sentience, so they might have been boxed at one time, before being reprogrammed.

I think Cavil said something to the effect that her line had shown those reckless tendencies before, and thus the whole line was unstable in his view. So they were all boxed.

What I want to know is how the hell was this accomplished? It seems the only way would be to take out every 3, and box their consciousness before they downloaded. Wouldn’t a few escape?

I forget, do cylons have any group consciousness, or is each individual really individual?
Good question, how to box the entire line? Would they have an orb that holds consciousness for all the 3's, or gather every walking Cylon and literally box them all a waste of space, plus then deterioration could set in, would the cavil mechanic then need to come in and check and change her oil? I'd like that job.

On the group conscience thing, someone said before They're not Borg, they're individuals, kinda like identical twins only more like "clones" the are clones, thats why a six can be raped and tortured, and have no effect on the others, only thing is that tortured six if resurrected can still have those same bad feelings from the ordeal, even though the caprica six while talking to the three that was boxed on Caprica said "you leave a lot of the baggage with the old body" but not all.

I wonder if all the past boxed models just showed more human tendency's "Free will" like the raiders, that caused them to get boxed, they want to breed like humans be like humans, but there are those that keep pulling back, thus the root of the civil war. I think this will be the end game Cylons and humans become the same race, and then must fight off the Cavils and toasters, or their toasters turn on all fleshy models and humans.

I like how the basestar is so organic (and have naked Sharon's, the Ferengi would be proud), seams that the Cylons have evolved and gone out of their way to use biological materials in everything, kinda makes the human fleet look more like old toasters the old toasters and the human race inflexible.

I think this will be the end game Cylons and humans become the same race, and then must fight off the Cavils and toasters, or their toasters turn on all fleshy models and humans.

The show has hinted many times at a toaster rebellion.

On the group conscience thing, someone said before They're not Borg, they're individuals, kinda like identical twins only more like "clones" the are clones, thats why a six can be raped and tortured, and have no effect on the others, only thing is that tortured six if resurrected can still have those same bad feelings from the ordeal, even though the caprica six while talking to the three that was boxed on Caprica said "you leave a lot of the baggage with the old body" but not all.



Didn't Natalie say something this past episode to the 6 that had been drowned - something about understanding her pain due to when her consciousness was downloaded? To me, that means that the others have access to the memories and emotions of those that had died and been downloaded?

Also, on Caprica, didn't the Sharon now known as Athena tell Helo that she had access to Boomer's memories so, in effect, she was just like boomer? I kind of remember something along those lines...

So it seems that while each may be an individual, there is an element of collective consciousness. Maybe not as extreme as the borg.

Didn't Natalie say something this past episode to the 6 that had been drowned - something about understanding her pain due to when her consciousness was downloaded? To me, that means that the others have access to the memories and emotions of those that had died and been downloaded?

Also, on Caprica, didn't the Sharon now known as Athena tell Helo that she had access to Boomer's memories so, in effect, she was just like boomer? I kind of remember something along those lines...

So it seems that while each may be an individual, there is an element of collective consciousness. Maybe not as extreme as the borg.

I though that Natalie simply plaid psychiatrist to the six, i though they just discussed it, or Natalie would have recognized the human female that drowned the six.

They must share something but I think only after downloading.
Even that is questionable, because if they did then shouldn't they all be aware of who the final five are, since the Three downloaded, and resurrected before Cavil pulls the plug.

Maybe there some sharing in a limited way between the individual models, but it seems like maybe a writers snafu.

Also, on Caprica, didn't the Sharon now known as Athena tell Helo that she had access to Boomer's memories so, in effect, she was just like boomer? I kind of remember something along those lines...

So it seems that while each may be an individual, there is an element of collective consciousness. Maybe not as extreme as the borg.

When they die their experiences are downloaded to the rest....or so I seem to remember.

You are most welcome here. I would advise anyone who isn't up to date with season 4 to not read these "tomes". ;)
Cliff notes won't give you what experiencing the episodes can provide. Yes, even "filler" episodes. (a couple of which weren't very good, IMO) :)

Enjoy! That's what it's all about.

That's exactly what it is about and thanks for the welcome!

Didn't Natalie say something this past episode to the 6 that had been drowned - something about understanding her pain due to when her consciousness was downloaded? To me, that means that the others have access to the memories and emotions of those that had died and been downloaded?

Also, on Caprica, didn't the Sharon now known as Athena tell Helo that she had access to Boomer's memories so, in effect, she was just like boomer? I kind of remember something along those lines...

So it seems that while each may be an individual, there is an element of collective consciousness. Maybe not as extreme as the borg.

It's obviously not a collective consiousness. Othewise the Cylons would always know where the Colonial Fleet is due the undercover skinjobs. I take it that it's more of an update when a model is 'tied-in' to the central core. Possibly what happened when Athena placed her hand in the red goo on the Base Star.

When they die their experiences are downloaded to the rest....or so I seem to remember.

They must share something but I think only after downloading.
Even that is questionable, because if they did then shouldn't they all be aware of who the final five are, since the Three downloaded, and resurrected before Cavil pulls the plug.

When they die their experiences are downloaded to the rest....or so I seem to remember.

Yes, they've mentioned that several times. So anything that happens to a given model will not be known to the rest until she dies and gets downloaded. Then, some kind of collective conciousness must take over to distribute those memories to all the other copies, or they periodically "check in" somehow to update their databases (perhaps like the method Rutgar posits above). Otherwise, the only copies who would have memories of other copies who just died/downloaded would be those who themselves have just died/downloaded. Assuming "nobody lives forever", the entire line would eventually know all the memories of all their individual copies, but that seems an awfully inefficient method of distributing collective knowledge (which is one of the advantages of being a Cylon, one would presume).

As to D'Anna, wasn't there a whole giant room full of Three's, all boxed up, when Cavell put her to "sleep"...? So, I would tend to think there's something about the procedure that causes all copies of a model being boxed to voluntarily "surrender themselves to the authorities" as it were. Otherwise, I suspect it could be difficult to find, apprehend, and box all the ones who weren't thinking that getting boxed was such a grand idea. The Three's, especially, seem to be free thinkers.

I've always thought that the cylon models had to sync in order to get the latest updates from their "clones." If they don't sync then they don't get the newest info... kinda like my PDA.

I take it that it's more of an update when a model is 'tied-in' to the central core. Possibly what happened when Athena placed her hand in the red goo on the Base Star.

I'm liking this idea more and more... How about when Anders starts to put his hand in the red goo and pulls back at the last moment...? He's pretty conflicted about who he is. Looks like he was tempted to get some answers, but then lacked the guts to actually go through with it. Almost like he wants to know, but doesn't want to really know.

They must share something but I think only after downloading.
Even that is questionable, because if they did then shouldn't they all be aware of who the final five are, since the Three downloaded, and resurrected before Cavil pulls the plug.

Good point, but if they're programmed not to think about the Final Five, then maybe that bit of D'Anna's knowledge got filtered out before it got "updated" to the others. In any event, the only ones who would know about it are the other Three's. The collective consciousness in terms of shared memories for Cylons is isolated to others of that model, no? They can, of course, talk to the other models about stuff, but they won't share memories of the other models, as I understand it.

Good point, but if they're programmed not to think about the Final Five, then maybe that bit of D'Anna's knowledge got filtered out before it got "updated" to the others. In any event, the only ones who would know about it are the other Three's. The collective consciousness in terms of shared memories for Cylons is isolated to others of that model, no? They can, of course, talk to the other models about stuff, but they won't share memories of the other models, as I understand it.

That's the way I see it. Programming, as well as memory is model exclusive.

So far, we've only seen memories shared by members of the same model set. Athena told Tyrol that she had fond memories of him, though she'd never actually met him in the flesh (so to speak :)). (BTW, though that was after Boomer'd been killed by Cally, when did Boomer ever download or interface before then or Athena interface after hooking up with Helo?) Even then, I don't know how accessible those shared memories are; they certainly don't have the same effect as living through it. The drowning experience drove the one Six slightly mad but didn't have the same effect on Natalie, though she could sympathize.

In any case, only members of the Model Three group would have access to the memories of their "sister" who saw the faces of the Final Five and they were all boxed before anyone could discuss it.

Great conversation about the downloading/boxing/sharing of memories of Cylons. It's been fun reading all your ideas!

I wanted to go back to the Hybrid prophecy real quick, specifically the "harbinger of death" part. I admit I read this idea somewhere else - at the Television without Pity board. This really makes a lot of sense to me. What if by harbinger of death, the Hybrid means that Kara will bring about the end of resurrection for the Cylons? Already, the rebel models have lost access to resurrection facilities, but what about the others? Maybe Kara will somehow destroy all the Cylon resurrection ships/hubs/whatever. This would bring about death to the Cylons in a real way. It wouldn't mean they would all die instantly, but that they would now all experience true death. And without the ability to reproduce Cylon-to-Cylon, eventually the pure Cylon race would in fact end.

I'm sorry if this was mentioned upthread. I hadn't remembered reading this idea anywhere else until this morning at TWoP. I really like this theory because it's not too literal, but still makes good sense within the story.

I'm liking this idea more and more... How about when Anders starts to put his hand in the red goo and pulls back at the last moment...? He's pretty conflicted about who he is. Looks like he was tempted to get some answers, but then lacked the guts to actually go through with it. Almost like he wants to know, but doesn't want to really know.

First though for me, was that he was scared to be found out, maybe when he sticks his hand in there, the Hybrid would call him out on it, or a "New skin job alert" would go off throughout the ship with Red lights flashing.

First though for me, was that he was scared to be found out, maybe when he sticks his hand in there, the Hybrid would call him out on it, or a "New skin job alert" would go off throughout the ship with Red lights flashing.

i thought starbuck or someone called him and started then talking to him....thats why he stopped with his hand.

i thought starbuck or someone called him and started then talking to him....thats why he stopped with his hand.

Yeah, it was Starbuck.

i thought starbuck or someone called him and started then talking to him....thats why he stopped with his hand.After Athena accesses the interface and starts explaining what needs to be done to adapt their jump sync generator to the Basestar, Anders stares at the interface in fascination, reaching out his hand toward it. When Athena finishes explaining what's needed to the crowd, Starbuck starts barking out orders, telling Jean Barolay to stay and help (at which point Once Drowned Six jerks her head around to take a good look at Barolay). Anders is shown with his hand almost touching the interface, when Starbuck ends her orders with, "Anders, you're on me." He jerks his hand away from the interface, turns and says, "It might be better if I stay here--I know the Raptor's systems better than they do." Starbuck replies, "Fine," and leave with Natalie and Leoben.

Who knows what would have happened if he touched that thing? Even if it didn't alert the Hybrid to his presence, he has no experience using it and would have no doubt reacted in some attention-drawing manner to the sensation of interfacing with the ship's systems.

I like what's happening with Anders--his fascination with the interface and with the death of the Eight in the Hybrid room. He's on a journey of self-discovery and self-acceptance that's at odds with his love for Starbuck, who would instantly hate him if she knew what he was.

It's the instant bigotry-breaker, eh? So you hate Cylons, Starbuck? Well, guess what- you've been banging one for 3 seasons! Ha-ha, joke's on you, you psycho! [after which, the inevitable chemical precursors start flowing, and Starbuck achieves the revelation that her hatred needs to be re-evaluated] :D

They must share something but I think only after downloading.
Even that is questionable, because if they did then shouldn't they all be aware of who the final five are, since the Three downloaded, and resurrected before Cavil pulls the plug.


Could that be why Cavil boxed the entire 3 line then?

I think my question just answered the one before it :)

It's the instant bigotry-breaker, eh? So you hate Cylons, Starbuck? Well, guess what- you've been banging one for 3 seasons! Ha-ha, joke's on you, you psycho! [after which, the inevitable chemical precursors start flowing, and Starbuck achieves the revelation that her hatred needs to be re-evaluated] :DOf course, in the season premiere episode, "He That Believeth In Me", he says something like, "Don't worry, sweetie! I don't care if you might be a Cylon--I still love ya'!", to which she replies something like, "That's the difference between you and me. If I thought that you were one, I'd kill you now."

I think that he can be fairly sure where he stands :D.

EDIT: I found a transcript of that episode (http://www.sadgeezer.com/node/6213) and here's the passage I was thinking of:Anders, kneeling at her side: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, hey, no. Kara, no. Listen to me. If you were a Cylon, then you've been one from the beginning.

Kara, disgusted: Like Boomer. Spend my entire life thinking I'm one thing...

Anders: Yeah, and then you wake up one day and discover you're another. Still doesn't change who you really are. Still doesn't change the fact that I love you no matter what.

Kara, joking: You are a better person than I am, Sam, because if I found out that you were a Cylon, I would put a bullet between your eyes.

Great conversation about the downloading/boxing/sharing of memories of Cylons. It's been fun reading all your ideas!

I wanted to go back to the Hybrid prophecy real quick, specifically the "harbinger of death" part. I admit I read this idea somewhere else - at the Television without Pity board. This really makes a lot of sense to me. What if by harbinger of death, the Hybrid means that Kara will bring about the end of resurrection for the Cylons? Already, the rebel models have lost access to resurrection facilities, but what about the others? Maybe Kara will somehow destroy all the Cylon resurrection ships/hubs/whatever. This would bring about death to the Cylons in a real way. It wouldn't mean they would all die instantly, but that they would now all experience true death. And without the ability to reproduce Cylon-to-Cylon, eventually the pure Cylon race would in fact end........
Sounded like a great thought ... but then I'd don't see Why the Cylons couldn't eventually build more ressurection facilities ...sure, they may be without them for 2 months, a year or whatever, but there's no reason to believe they would lose the technology they already have ....

I mean, we don't just have human and cylon in this crazy show. Here are all the categories of "entities" that we have:
...

9. Human/Cylon halfbreeds (two of them)
...


I think I would divide 9 into two different "entities". One the one hand (9a), we have a human/"skin job" halfbreed, and the other hand (9b), we have a human/final 5 halfbreed. This distinction is important b/c, remember, the Final 5 are fundamentally different than the others.

What if one of the distinctions between the Final 5 ("F5") and the remainder of the skinjobs is that they can age and procreate. Only when the are "activated", e.g. Jimi-style, does any Cylon programming become important.

In other words, they are otherwise indistinguishable from humans until "activated". Maybe the F5 are "human" until "activated", meaning at any moment, there are five humans which, when activated, become Cylons. Either these 5 are predetermined, or the Cylon-system (?) can select 5 humans to become the F5 when necessary. This would allow the 5 to be born, age and die just like normal humans.

Wow, that was pretty stream of consciousness!

Could that be why Cavil boxed the entire 3 line then?

I think my question just answered the one before it :)

I believe so, But the same models also act as one, not till Boomer went against the others, had that ever happened before, so he had no choice, the other sisters would have continued meddling and Gods know what else.

I believe so, But the same models also act as one, not till Boomer went against the others, had that ever happened before, so he had no choice, the other sisters would have continued meddling and Gods know what else.I don't think it's that all members of a model line literally "act as one", it's just that they all tend to agree on major issues and vote as a block. I don't know how they begin life; I assume that if they need a new member of a particular model line, they take one of the same bodies that they keep for resurrection purposes and download a "blank" personality, with a set of fake memories and maybe the skill-set for the work that they intend to assign to him/her. I don't know how deep the fake memories need to be--can a person with an organic human-analog brain be sane with no memory of growing up or of any past at all? I imagine that it's their life experiences that make them different, and Boomer's experiences are the most different of them all. She was downloaded upon creation with a fake set of memories of growing up and only became aware of being a Cylon a couple of years back. Athena's the next most different, having been fully aware of being a Cylon, loaded with Boomer's memories (and who knows how they got them, with no downloads are interfacing by her) and assigned to get close to Helo on the theory that emotional intimacy was what their reproductive function lacked. She fell in love with Helo and rejected her Cylon past and has lived apart from them for a couple of years. All the rest the members of the "Known Seven" models have lived in constant contact with other Cylons for their entire existence, picking up incidental memories of others one way or the other. Having identical brains, bodies (with a model) and sets of life experience which are very close to identical, one would expect that they'd think pretty much alike.

Since Boomer's sole dissenting vote was enough to win an decision for Cavil, I also assume that they keep the numbers of each of the various models exactly equal. That would mean that if they were going to add new ones, they add an equal number of each.

All the rest the members of the "Known Seven" models have lived in constant contact with other Cylons for their entire existence, picking up incidental memories of others one way or the other. Having identical brains, bodies (with a model) and sets of life experience which are very close to identical, one would expect that they'd think pretty much alike.

Well, all the rest of the them besides Boomer all lived and worked among humans as undercover agents for years, presumably, during which time they very likely had little or no contact with other Cylons. The difference is all except Boomer/Sharon knew they were working the Cylon side as agents.

Since Boomer's sole dissenting vote was enough to win an decision for Cavil, I also assume that they keep the numbers of each of the various models exactly equal. That would mean that if they were going to add new ones, they add an equal number of each.

Yeah, I agree with that. When one copy of a model dies but is not resurrected for some reason, ship being out of range most likely, then they would impregnate a new "blank" with downloaded memories from the other copies. Wonder how many blanks they have, sitting around in storage waiting to take a goo bath?

Which leads me to wonder where their shipyard is where they build all these fantastically huge baseships, raiders, centurions, and blanks. Hope we get to see something of the Cylon home world before the series ends.

I don't think it's that all members of a model line literally "act as one", it's just that they all tend to agree on major issues and vote as a block. I was referring to votes (obviously they don't act as a unit that goes without saying), they all agreed along model lines till Boomer cast a descending vote, "that had never happened before" Since Boomer's sole dissenting vote was enough to win an decision for Cavil, I also assume that they keep the numbers of each of the various models exactly equal. That would mean that if they were going to add new ones, they add an equal number of each
I think trying to keep the same exact number of any model Is impractical, and frankly there was no need for it! Since they voted as one, now things have changed, They can have a dictatorship or have elections. All hail Cavil.

Since Boomer's sole dissenting vote was enough to win an decision for Cavil, I also assume that they keep the numbers of each of the various models exactly equal.
Or maybe a non-unanimous model splits their vote proportionally, so there would be no need for exactly equal numbers.

Well, all the rest of the them besides Boomer all lived and worked among humans as undercover agents for years, presumably, during which time they very likely had little or no contact with other Cylons. The difference is all except Boomer/Sharon knew they were working the Cylon side as agents.I doubt that. One assumes that there are many thousands of each model. It was neither necessary to have thousands of undercover spies among humans (who were principally done in by the work of Caprica Six). Having thousands of spies living in the colonies would have been totally unnecessary and dangerous--you gotta think someone would have encountered multiple instances of the same model. They also would have had to extract all of them prior to their attacks on the colonies. I'm sure that they had their implanted spies, but I doubt that it was any significant portion of the Cylon population.

I doubt that. One assumes that there are many thousands of each model. It was neither necessary to have thousands of undercover spies among humans (who were principally done in by the work of Caprica Six). Having thousands of spies living in the colonies would have been totally unnecessary and dangerous--you gotta think someone would have encountered multiple instances of the same model. They also would have had to extract all of them prior to their attacks on the colonies. I'm sure that they had their implanted spies, but I doubt that it was any significant portion of the Cylon population.

You misunderstood me. I was saying that only a small number of each model, perhaps only one in most cases, actually worked among the humans as undercover agents; probably should have worded that better. My point was that all 7 models had experience with living apart from other Cylons for perhaps years at a time. The fewer there were, the more likely that was the case.

You misunderstood me. I was saying that only a small number of each model, perhaps only one in most cases, actually worked among the humans as undercover agents; probably should have worded that better. My point was that all 7 models had experience with living apart from other Cylons for perhaps years at a time. The fewer there were, the more likely that was the case.And I'll bet that every Cylon that worked hidden among humans for years are somewhat different from the others.

I think trying to keep the same exact number of any model Is impractical, and frankly there was no need for it! Since they voted as one, now things have changed, They can have a dictatorship or have elections. All hail Cavil.Exactly why would it be impractical? You just add 'em 7 at a time--BFD.

How would a voting system work where one dissenting vote from a block breaks a tie if the voting wasn't based on equal numbers of each block? If one of them dissents, then none of their votes count?

Exactly why would it be impractical? You just add 'em 7 at a time--BFD.
Well if you have a model such as Sharon or Caprica six out of contact, all of sudden you must add one or two, take roll call every day. Makes no sense its not logical.

How would a voting system work where one dissenting vote from a block breaks a tie if the voting wasn't
based on equal numbers of each block? If one of them dissents, then none of their votes count?
It worked because they counted all the six's and 8's as one vote per model, at least till Boomer defected and voted as an individual. Now this little system is out the window. All hail dictator "Cavil"

Michael Jordan

Touché salesman, touché.

I know this is getting off track a bit with the current discussion, but back when SciFi aired those marathons before season 4, were they in HD? I ask because they rerun they had last Friday (at like 2am or whatever), was in SD. Their Atlantis and Eureka reruns are in HD, so I was hoping it would be the same for BSG.

Touché salesman, touché.

I know this is getting off track a bit with the current discussion, but back when SciFi aired those marathons before season 4, were they in HD? I ask because they rerun they had last Friday (at like 2am or whatever), was in SD. Their Atlantis and Eureka reruns are in HD, so I was hoping it would be the same for BSG.

Only the Season 3 episodes were in HD. And I'm not even sure all of them were; I think so. The rest were all SD.

Sounded like a great thought ... but then I'd don't see Why the Cylons couldn't eventually build more ressurection facilities ...sure, they may be without them for 2 months, a year or whatever, but there's no reason to believe they would lose the technology they already have ....

Well, that's a good point. Maybe something could happen to wipe out all but a few Cylons who would be unable to rebuild? I dunno. I'm clingy when it comes to theories I like. :p

Only the Season 3 episodes were in HD. And I'm not even sure all of them were; I think so. The rest were all SD.

All of the BSG episodes have been aired in HD. Universal HD has shown every season in HD after they first ran in SD on Sci-Fi.

All of the BSG episodes have been aired in HD. Universal HD has showed every season in HD after they first ran in SD on Sci-Fi.

That they did. It is curious, though, why SciFi airs some of the BSG in windobox and some in HD (unless Universal paid for the HD broadcast rights---but even then, its the same parent company).

Probably some moron forgetting to flip the switch.

Which raises the question, aren't they watching it?

It worked because they counted all the six's and 8's as one vote per model, at least till Boomer defected and voted as an individual. Now this little system is out the window. All hail dictator "Cavil"It's not normally a problem, but given the boxing of the entire Number Three model line, a deadlock became possible, making a single dissenting vote an issue when all of the other models voted as a unamimous block.

Of course, in the season premiere episode, "He That Believeth In Me", he says something like, "Don't worry, sweetie! I don't care if you might be a Cylon--I still love ya'!", to which she replies something like, "That's the difference between you and me. If I thought that you were one, I'd kill you now."

Yes, I recall that scene, as well. It certainly demonstrates how strongly she feels on the topic of Cylons...but I think this is also one of those situations where you simply cannot know how to respond unless actually put into that situation, regardless of what you say you would do. The more history they develop together, the less certain the actions will be consistent with the words.

For example, if it weren't for Anders, Starbuck would have lost her standoff in the Demetrius and the ship will have jumped back to Galactica w/o the Basestar sidetrack. I'm sure he built major kudos points with Starbuck for that. At some point Starbuck will be confronted with Ander's true origin, and it will be a serious challenge to her preconceptions that all Cylons are evil and must be destroyed w/o qualification. Can she ignore the loyalty (beyond all logic for that incident, afaic) and camaraderie (dating back to original Caprica) that Anders has provided to facilitate her getting to as far as she does, or can she be true to her words spoken in haste and w/o full knowledge of the realities? At some point she will be challenged to re-evaluate her views of Cylons to reconcile how Anders can be as supportive as he has been to her goals while literally being the very thing she despises.

I think it makes for an interesting story facet, at least. Who knows- maybe it will never be remotely touched in the show. We shall see... ;)

It's not normally a problem, but given the boxing of the entire Number Three model line, a deadlock became possible, making a single dissenting vote an issue when all of the other models voted as a unamimous block.

Very true, the boxing of the three had repercussions.

I wish they'd have a filler ep with the Cavils and Boomer, she's the only chick on that base star. :eek: They can call it "Boomer does Cylons" :)

You sick little puppy! :p

It's the instant bigotry-breaker, eh? So you hate Cylons, Starbuck? Well, guess what- you've been banging one for 3 seasons! Ha-ha, joke's on you, you psycho! [after which, the inevitable chemical precursors start flowing, and Starbuck achieves the revelation that her hatred needs to be re-evaluated] :D

Noooooo! No revelation.

Starbuck should shoot him between the eyes, and then everyone will hug her and say, "That's our Starbuck!" Freeze frame as everyone throws their heads back and laughs. Roll credits over freeze frame (kind of an A-Team ending).

In seriousness though, Starbuck is like Groundskeeper Willie. Just ill-tempered living a life of endless suffering. You could easily see Starbuck saying, "I dinna cry when me own father was hung for stealing a pig." Grand transformation or not, Starbuck only has one instinct: turn and fight.

This is true...and yet the hope of the entire remaining human race! :eek: A transformation is nearly mandatory if the bsg finale is heading where we think it is. ;) Either that, or she gets heroically KIA'd before the end (thus circumventing the inevitable realization).

How would a voting system work where one dissenting vote from a block breaks a tie if the voting wasn't based on equal numbers of each block?
The vote could be split fractionally. For example, let's suppose that there are exactly 1 million copies of the #8 model. They have 1 vote as a whole. However, when one copy dissents from the rest, then the #8 vote is split: 0.999999 to one side, and 0.000001 to the other side. So it doesn't matter how many copies there are of the other models.

The vote could be split fractionally. For example, let's suppose that there are exactly 1 million copies of the #8 model. They have 1 vote as a whole. However, when one copy dissents from the rest, then the #8 vote is split: 0.999999 to one side, and 0.000001 to the other side. So it doesn't matter how many copies there are of the other models.

This doesn't answer the other poster's question... Unless there were also 1 million of each of the other models voting, then 1 vote swing doesn't make sense.

Each "side" had 3 models voting... IF they cast votes by the "head model" voting then the vote should have been 3-3 period. One "Boomer" dissention shouldn't make a difference.

IF it was a vote based on the total voting of each individual cylon within the 6 total models... then one "Boomer" vote could make the difference IF each model had the same population voting.

This doesn't answer the other poster's question... Unless there were also 1 million of each of the other models voting, then 1 vote swing doesn't make sense.

Each "side" had 3 models voting... IF they cast votes by the "head model" voting then the vote should have been 3-3 period. One "Boomer" dissention shouldn't make a difference.

IF it was a vote based on the total voting of each individual cylon within the 6 total models... then one "Boomer" vote could make the difference IF each model had the same population voting.

Well - I think you are looking at it from the "human" perspective, where what you say makes sense. If I put myself in the Cylon's shoes, however, I can clearly see where the one dissenting vote makes a difference. Here, we are talking about "thought blocks" - each having one vote. All of the other cylon models, except apparently boomer's, have absolute solidarity among them. They each are of one "mind" together, when it comes to voting. Therefore, each only gets one vote. Boomer is of a complete and utterly separate mind from the rest of her model. She also gets one vote as an "individual thought block." THerefore, she swings the vote. This may be an individual characteristic of the 8s, since an army of 8s approached Athena and told her she taught them to be more than their programming.

This means that it doesn't matter how many of each model there are. If they are of "one mind" or "thought block" - they only get one vote.

If you ride the slippery slope, this could be very messy for the cylons. Right now, Cavil has benefitted from this and used it to his advantage. But I would think individual "thought blocks" for each individual cylon would pose a problem for him in the future.

Each "side" had 3 models voting... IF they cast votes by the "head model" voting then the vote should have been 3-3 period. One "Boomer" dissention shouldn't make a difference.
In my example, the vote total would be 3.000001 to 2.999999.

Well - I think you are looking at it from the "human" perspective, where what you say makes sense. If I put myself in the Cylon's shoes, however, I can clearly see where the one dissenting vote makes a difference. Here, we are talking about "thought blocks" - each having one vote. All of the other cylon models, except apparently boomer's, have absolute solidarity among them. They each are of one "mind" together, when it comes to voting. Therefore, each only gets one vote. Boomer is of a complete and utterly separate mind from the rest of her model. She also gets one vote as an "individual thought block." THerefore, she swings the vote. This may be an individual characteristic of the 8s, since an army of 8s approached Athena and told her she taught them to be more than their programming.

This means that it doesn't matter how many of each model there are. If they are of "one mind" or "thought block" - they only get one vote.

If you ride the slippery slope, this could be very messy for the cylons. Right now, Cavil has benefitted from this and used it to his advantage. But I would think individual "thought blocks" for each individual cylon would pose a problem for him in the future.

I think trying to understand cylon politics with the very little information we have (one scene) is futile.

The easiest explanation is that Boomer's dissent voided the nay vote of the rest of the 8's since they seem to vote as a block/individual. Without that vote, Cavil's plan had the majority vote.

Basically Boomer caused the 8's to abstain because of the inability to reconcile a vote in their models.

On to two new topics,

I really hope we get to see the cylon home world at one point. I also hope we get to see the Black Opps episode (that appears to be coming) where the treaty-cylons and humans band together on a risky mission to unbox D'anna's behind enemy lines.

Hopefully they wrap it into the same episode, although I'm not sure why Roslin or Adama would be willing to work with them, especially with her distrust of starbuck, and their hatred of the cylons.

I think trying to understand cylon politics with the very little information we have (one scene) is futile.

The easiest explanation is that Boomer's dissent voided the nay vote of the rest of the 8's since they seem to vote as a block/individual. Without that vote, Cavil's plan had the majority vote.

Basically Boomer caused the 8's to abstain because of the inability to reconcile a vote in their models.

Good points - that makes sense as well. It may be futile, but it is fun to speculate.



On to two new topics,

I really hope we get to see the cylon home world at one point. I also hope we get to see the Black Opps episode (that appears to be coming) where the treaty-cylons and humans band together on a risky mission to unbox D'anna's behind enemy lines.

Hopefully they wrap it into the same episode, although I'm not sure why Roslin or Adama would be willing to work with them, especially with her distrust of starbuck, and their hatred of the cylons.

Perhaps the cylons have no homeworld, and just is a giant floating armada. So where is D'Anna boxed? It would be fun to see the mission to do so, but knowing this show, the people sent to do it will leave, then they'll have three episodes showing what Baltar eats for breakfast, then they will come back without showing anything. (ahem - cylon civil war...)

And as for getting Adama and Roslyn to trust the cylons - they already trust Athena, which makes little sense. Adama trusted Starbuck, which makes little sense. Why would this be any different?

Good points - that makes sense as well. It may be futile, but it is fun to speculate.



Perhaps the cylons have no homeworld, and just is a giant floating armada. So where is D'Anna boxed? It would be fun to see the mission to do so, but knowing this show, the people sent to do it will leave, then they'll have three episodes showing what Baltar eats for breakfast, then they will come back without showing anything. (ahem - cylon civil war...)

And as for getting Adama and Roslyn to trust the cylons - they already trust Athena, which makes little sense. Adama trusted Starbuck, which makes little sense. Why would this be any different?

I'm still waiting to see how one "boxes" a cylon, let alone an entire model. I'm assuming it would have to be some type of broadcast program that turns them all off simultaneously----no matter where they are physically located---sort of like in Star Wars I when the control ship is destroyed by young Anakin and the Trade Federation warriors just powered down.

This is true...and yet the hope of the entire remaining human race! :eek: A transformation is nearly mandatory if the bsg finale is heading where we think it is. ;) Either that, or she gets heroically KIA'd before the end (thus circumventing the inevitable realization).

I'd settle for heroically KIA. Of course, fanboys would groan about her being killed twice.

Maybe if they shoot her in the head, since she's undead, the fanboys would be cool with a Starbuck zombie cure explanation.

Hey, anybody consider the ramifications of Cylon Super-delegates in this process? :p

Here's a question for all the BSG fans out there who watch on SCIFI HD?

Has anybody seen that SCIFI HD will begin to re-air previous episodes from
this current season?

I checked my program listings last night and noticed that this channel was
not re-airing any of the previous episodes in the next couple weeks.
Struck me as a bit odd.

I'm still waiting to see how one "boxes" a cylon, let alone an entire model. I'm assuming it would have to be some type of broadcast program that turns them all off simultaneously----no matter where they are physically located---sort of like in Star Wars I when the control ship is destroyed by young Anakin and the Trade Federation warriors just powered down.
This doesn't make sense, since there was never an Episode 1 of Star Wars.
You hear me?! - NEVER HAPPENED

This doesn't make sense, since there was never an Episode 1 of Star Wars.
You hear me?! - NEVER HAPPENED

Truer words were never spoken.

Meesa thinks youwsa is VEEERRRRRY smart!

Just wanted to chime and say how absolutely amazing this season is so far...I had VERY HIGH expectations and they have matched or bested them every step of the way. I just caught up last night on the previous Friday's episode and this was by far the best episode of the year...

I can't wait to see the end of this season...should be amazing

This doesn't make sense, since there was never an Episode 1 of Star Wars.
You hear me?! - NEVER HAPPENED

It happened. And since it happened with the halo of George Lucas it is 100% canonical. Accept it: your man George Lucas sold ya out to make a buck.

In greater seriousness, though, the prequels were flawed because the story wasn't even a story until about 4/5 of the way through the awfully, awfully named Attack of the Clones. Until Yoda fights Dooku (spelling?) there isn't anything worth caring about in the prequels.

Oh, and G Luke completely wussified Darth Vader. The bawling Darth Vader at the end of Ep 3 was criminally bad plus entirely unnecessary.

The truth is, there are only two brilliant sequences in the prequels. Yoda vs Dooku -- which was the only thing that made Clones worth watching -- and the opening space battle of Revenge of the Sith.

Beyond that, none of it measures to the two attacks on the Death Stars, the imperial assault on Hoth or the Emperor trying to turn Luke at the of Return of the Jedi. Hell, most of it doesn't even measure up to the obnoxious Ewok village.

And, I reiterate, it was all done with the blessing -- no! the encouragement -- no! the raw seething stoopid -- of George Lucas.

Perhaps the cylons have no homeworld, and just is a giant floating armada.

The Cylon homeworld is discussed several times. While no one really says much about what it is it is implied that it is a planet and that the Colonials were aware of its existence.

The implication of the show is that where the Cylons gained the upperhand was by radically improving their FTL technology without the Colonials knowing it.

It happened. And since it happened with the halo of George Lucas it is 100% canonical. Accept it: your man George Lucas sold ya out to make a buck.

In greater seriousness, though, the prequels were flawed because the story wasn't even a story until about 4/5 of the way through the awfully, awfully named Attack of the Clones. Until Yoda fights Dooku (spelling?) there isn't anything worth caring about in the prequels.

Oh, and G Luke completely wussified Darth Vader. The bawling Darth Vader at the end of Ep 3 was criminally bad plus entirely unnecessary.

The truth is, there are only two brilliant sequences in the prequels. Yoda vs Dooku -- which was the only thing that made Clones worth watching -- and the opening space battle of Revenge of the Sith.


I would have to include the 3 way (cough) battle between Qui-gon, Obi-Wan, and Darth Maul (whom Lucas should have let escape).

The Cylon homeworld is discussed several times. While no one really says much about what it is it is implied that it is a planet and that the Colonials were aware of its existence.

The implication of the show is that where the Cylons gained the upperhand was by radically improving their FTL technology without the Colonials knowing it.Where they gained the upper hand was in spying to find out how to hack into fighters and Battlestars and completely disable them using their knowledge of Baltar's navigation program. If they faced an equal force of Battlestars and unhackable fighters, I don't think that improved FTL would give them much of an advantage, at least in one-on-one battle. Of course, in protracted struggles it would let them bring in reinforcements from further away, so under certain circumstances it represents a strategic advantage.

When the discussion of this series began here, I used to harp on the ridiculous plot contrivance of the Colonials allowing the Cylons to withdraw from the war and lick their wounds for 40 years without establishing kind of intelligence concerning their development whatsoever. Obviously they couldn't insert spies into "Cylon society" as the Cylons did to them, but there should have been enough information that they could have gathered from afar using stealth ships to keep track of their movements and build-out of basestars, etc. They should have known that something was up long before the attack.

To me it's inconceivable that you'd sign a truce with a bunch of renegade machinery and honor it, expecting that they'd do the same--I'd have gone away, spent several years rebuilding my forces while keeping a close eye on them, then I'd have brought the fight back to their door. Again, that's just me :D.

To me it's inconceivable that you'd sign a truce with a bunch of renegade machinery and honor it, expecting that they'd do the same--I'd have gone away, spent several years rebuilding my forces while keeping a close eye on them, then I'd have brought the fight back to their door. Again, that's just me :D.

Exactly why the Cylons attacked in the first place.

W

When the discussion of this series began here, I used to harp on the ridiculous plot contrivance of the Colonials allowing the Cylons to withdraw from the war and lick their wounds for 40 years without establishing kind of intelligence concerning their development whatsoever. Obviously they couldn't insert spies into "Cylon society" as the Cylons did to them, but there should have been enough information that they could have gathered from afar using stealth ships to keep track of their movements and build-out of basestars, etc. They should have known that something was up long before the attack.

They did, most likely several times over several years.

There was even an episode about it, where Adama was in command. Remember the guy that Adama shot down on an Opps mission into cylon space, and suddenly returned? It was a great episode.

That stuff was classified, and it's hard to think that many, if any, besides the very few ones in the military that flew some of the limited missions would know about it.

The Cylon homeworld is discussed several times. While no one really says much about what it is it is implied that it is a planet and that the Colonials were aware of its existence.

The implication of the show is that where the Cylons gained the upperhand was by radically improving their FTL technology without the Colonials knowing it.


The Cylon homeworld is = = = EARTH. Mankind and robots/Cylons left Earth and forgot it except in legend. Now both are seeking their homeworld again!!!

The Cylon homeworld is = = = EARTH. Mankind and robots/Cylons left Earth and forgot it except in legend. Now both are seeking their homeworld again!!!Except that mankind in the Colonies remember creating the Cylons from scratch, as mechanized servants who became self-aware and turned against them. They Cylons seem to remember it exactly the same way.

:DExcept that mankind in the Colonies remember creating the Cylons from scratch, as mechanized servants who became self-aware and turned against them. They Cylons seem to remember it exactly the same way.

Human Cylons, who no longer remembered they were Cylons, and who no longer remembered Earth, created the "first" mechanized Cylons. And the "first" mechanized Cylons then created the human Cylons. So the cycle goes on and on!!!@@@

Am I really the first to come up with this theory, which is as good as any, isn't it?:D

The Cylons have to have a homeworld, because there has to be some kind of industrial center from which to build their fleets. We have no idea how many basestars there are, but there seem to be a whole bunch of 'em and they're huge. Granted, they may build them in space, but there still would have to be a massive program to do so, from procuring raw materials to design and planning to the logistics of construction. They can't just "breed" them.

Anyway, as I said earlier, I want to see that homeworld before the series clocks out!

:D

Human Cylons, who no longer remembered they were Cylons, and who no longer remembered Earth, created the "first" mechanized Cylons. And the "first" mechanized Cylons then created the human Cylons. So the cycle goes on and on!!!@@@

Am I really the first to come up with this theory, which is as good as any, isn't it?:D

It's been bandied about, albeit more so in the early seasons. We'll just have to see.

Granted, they may build them in space, but there still would have to be a massive program to do so, from procuring raw materials to design and planning to the logistics of construction. They can't just "breed" them.

What?...you haven't seen 2 basestars scissoring? :p YouTube'it!

The Cylon homeworld is = = = EARTH. Mankind and robots/Cylons left Earth and forgot it except in legend. Now both are seeking their homeworld again!!!

I was thinking how does a race of people capable of space flight forget?
Could they have dropped the stone tablets? And lost all written records?
Like Moses dint he drop one and we ended up with only ten commandments instead of 15.

I cant wait till they try to explain everything, maybe they wont bother.

I was thinking how does a race of people capable of space flight forget?

The easiest explanation here is that the original colonists wanted to forget. Something so terrible happened that they all agreed to erase it from their records and not teach it to their children... and so history "starts over" to some extent.

Another scenario is that the original survivors who founded the colonies were not the scientists and scholars. Entirely possible that the smartest of the smart were killed in a war or something, and the survivors only had technology until it started to break down... they couldn't fix it... and so it faded into memory along with history, until generations later they were essentially able to re-discover and re-invent things again.

Could they have dropped the stone tablets? And lost all written records?
Like Moses dint he drop one and we ended up with only ten commandments instead of 15.

Only happened in a Mel Brooks movie.

The easiest explanation here is that the original colonists wanted to forget. Something so terrible happened that they all agreed to erase it from their records and not teach it to their children... and so history "starts over" to some extent.
.
Yeah, maybe they want to forget that the real human race hasn't existed in its original form for thousands of years, but at some point someone would have said lets not forget we seam to keep repeating the same mistakes, so lets write this down folks.

Only happened in a Mel Brooks movieNo way! Who's "Mel Books" Whats he have to do with "The History of the World" :confused::confused::rolleyes::D:p

Another scenario is that the original survivors who founded the colonies were not the scientists and scholars. Entirely possible that the smartest of the smart were killed in a war or somethingPossibly only the hairdressers and phone sanitizers survived the war.

Tonight's episode... Holy Crap!

If Gateta was thinking about auditioning for Colonial Idol, um, no.

Yeah, this show has clearly gone downhill. :rolleyes:

Great episode!

OK...why an Opera House?

A performance....a rehearsal....a place where operas are repeated

If Gateta was thinking about auditioning for Colonial Idol, um, no.

hmm......I thought he had a pretty amazing voice.

I'll have to re-watch the episode and pick out the lyrics, see if there's anything going on there.

Yet another theme from DS9 repeated here......Nog lost his leg in DS9's final season, Gaeta loses his in BSG's final season.

hmm......I thought he had a pretty amazing voice.

I'll have to re-watch the episode and pick out the lyrics, see if there's anything going on there.

Yet another theme from DS9 repeated here......Nog lost his leg in DS9's final season, Gaeta loses his in BSG's final season.

This may be just a coincidence, but he was singing through most of the episode....while those opera house visions were being flashed....and last season the 4 Cylons were "turned on" by music.

Maybe the producers just got finishing watching August Rush and decided music is the unifying force in the universe. :D

Yeah its really gone downhill, Cylons killing Cylons in front of Cylon children!
Oh the humanity.

So looks like Tigh has a bun in the oven with Caprica? I think.

Looks like a major toaster fight coming up. Funny how both sides are screwing each other on this deal.

This may be just a coincidence, but he was singing through most of the episode....while those opera house visions were being flashed....and last season the 4 Cylons were "turned on" by music.

Maybe the producers just got finishing watching August Rush and decided music is the unifying force in the universe. :D

It's possible.......I mean the final 4 were having that meeting speculating on who the last one is, and all of a sudden Anders starts talking about how Gaeta sings in sickbay.

I hope he's not it though. It would make perfect sense in the context of the show's events but dramatically it doesn't work.

This may be just a coincidence, but he was singing through most of the episode....while those opera house visions were being flashed....and last season the 4 Cylons were "turned on" by music.


Yup its not watch tower but who said it has to be just that.

I thought Gaeta's voice was gorgeous. Though I don't think just because we hear someone singing or someone mentions hearing a sound or song that that automatically means they are the Final Cylon. ;)

Anyway, another great episode! It sucks we have to wait two weeks to find out what happens. Roslin and Baltar stuck on a baseship together, lol. Wonder where they jumped? I guess the Hybrid sensed danger when Natalie was shot and bugged out? Not sure what was going on there.

And I found it completely awesome that Tory finally got called out for sleazing it up with Baltar. Roslin was cold, but that "I don't care if you get down on your knees to pray or just get down on your knees" line rocked.

Great episode. Drama on so many fronts. The mangled web of alliances got even more tangled tonight.
2 weeks will be a long time to wait.

Yeah its really gone downhill, Cylons killing Cylons in front of Cylon children!
Oh the humanity.

So looks like Tigh has a bun in the oven with Caprica? I think.

Looks like a major toaster fight coming up. Funny how both sides are screwing each other on this deal.

The child was out of the room. She waited for her daughter to leave.

I really think that earlier speculation I stole from TWoP was right on -- Kara is the harbinger of death, in that she'll play some major role in the destruction of the Resurrection Hub, thus bringing mortality to the Cylon race.

She wasn't on the basestar, was she? I don't remember seeing her at the end. I think it was just Roslin, Baltar, and Helo. Was any other Colonial of note there?

Looks like Leobin takes command...

I really think that earlier speculation I stole from TWoP was right on -- Kara is the harbinger of death, in that she'll play some major role in the destruction of the Resurrection Hub, thus bringing mortality to the Cylon race.

She wasn't on the basestar, was she? I don't remember seeing her at the end. I think it was just Roslin, Baltar, and Helo. Was any other Colonial of note there?
Yeah, I think you are right. They pretty much beat you over the head with the Harbinger of Death meaning ending resurrections for Cylons in tonights episode.

If you think 2 weeks is long, try waiting another year for the final 10! I still haven't found any official news that the final eps are airing in 2009... I haven't looked too much though, mostly cause I hope that it is just a rumor.

If Gateta was thinking about auditioning for Colonial Idol, um, no.

Yeah, I was thinking his singing was an overly melodrama-queen element. I kept screaming at the tv, "TAKE YOUR FRAKKIN' MORPHINE AND SHADDIT...SHATINUP!!!"

Great episode! Can't wait to see with Tigh has 'cooking'

JUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!

I had to pick my jaw off the floor after those final few seconds. Raw, disturbing, beautifully interweaving, then fade out on Gaeta's haunting voice.

So did Sharron kills off the wrong number 6? The one in her visions is blond.

Well according to Season 1 (or was it 2 ?), Sharon's child, though biologically hers, is Baltar's and a 6's.
Not sure if it's the imaginary 6's, or Caprica 6 though ...
(but definitely not the 6 she killed ...)

So did Sharron kills off the wrong number 6? The one in her visions is blond.

....and what's with the Sharon models taking out leaders? First an attempt on Adama, now the rebel leader?

But yes, the vision about Hera showed Baltar and "his" very blonde #6 taking the kid.

....and not to get to mystical....but Hera drawing the number 6 over and over....666....are they working in the number of the beast for some reason...or just another red herring?

JUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!

I had to pick my jaw off the floor after those final few seconds. Raw, disturbing, beautifully interweaving, then fade out on Gaeta's haunting voice.

Yeah, the hybrid screaming jump was pretty good. That's one of those unexpected twist that I like a lot.

Now as for Gaeta's haunting voice, a little of it was O.K., but they went a bit overboard with it. Actually, I think I would have preferred Sharron blowing away Gaeta after the first bar and leave the 6 on the bay ship alone. This goes on to prove that the sharron model is fundamentally flawed. They keep shooting the wrong cylon/humans :D

I also thought the episode was great.

Minor quibbles: Wouldn't it have made more sense for Demetrius to jump back, explain what is going on, then have the basestar jump in? Wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic, though! ;)

Also, it reminded me a bit of Star Trek: A technical malfunction keeps the demetrius from jumping, and then a technical malfunction keeps the basestar from being able to communicate with Galactica. What are the odds?

Finally, the cylons have a pretty weak set-up, don't they? It seems awfully inefficient - first to have their resurrection ships with the potential to separate from the fleet so easily. Then to have a "resurrection hub" that, in one blow, can render the entire cylon army mortal. Seems like a pretty big flaw in their defenses. Being machines, I would think they would redundancy after redundancy to protect their downloads.

...snip...

Finally, the cylons have a pretty weak set-up, don't they? It seems awfully inefficient - first to have their resurrection ships with the potential to separate from the fleet so easily. Then to have a "resurrection hub" that, in one blow, can render the entire cylon army mortal. Seems like a pretty big flaw in their defenses. Being machines, I would think they would redundancy after redundancy to protect their downloads.

No problem, they just order more from their home planet. Wouldn't that be a hoot. Adamas thinks he's killed the last Cylon and boom, 30 bay ships appear.

We know that they're around 39,000 humans left. Wonder how many cylons are left (in this production run).

Yeah, I was thinking his singing was an overly melodrama-queen element. I kept screaming at the tv, "TAKE YOUR FRAKKIN' MORPHINE AND SHADDIT...SHATINUP!!!"

My thoughts exactly.

Great episode though.

So did Sharron kills off the wrong number 6? The one in her visions is blond.From what I could glean watching the "in 2 weeks" preview, that 6 is -- to quote Python -- not dead yet. Preggers?

If you remember the Opera scene with the 6 (Caprica ?), Sharon (Athena ?), Roslin, Hera and Baltar, there were subliminal flashes of the Hybrid, implying she was directing these players to some particular end. She's got 2 out of 5 on the baseship now ... hmmmm, "2 out of 5".

I wonder if the Hybrids are manipulating things to bring about their own deaths. I sure wouldn't be happy hooked up to some machine and stuck in a bath all day.

I wonder if the Hybrids are manipulating things to bring about their own deaths. I sure wouldn't be happy hooked up to some machine and stuck in a bath all day.

imagine the agents pitch to the actress that plays the hybrid:

"ive got a great part for you....all you have to do is lay in a puddle of goo and ramble on insensically....yea that'll look great on your resume."

http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=349

Some good info on Gaeta's song and how it evolved and came about.

So looks like Tigh has a bun in the oven with Caprica?


eww to the 9th power.

Possibly only the hairdressers and phone sanitizers survived the war.

Got that..LOL.. Guess I'm a geek. :eek:

No problem, they just order more from their home planet. Wouldn't that be a hoot. Adamas thinks he's killed the last Cylon and boom, 30 bay ships appear.

We know that they're around 39,000 humans left. Wonder how many cylons are left (in this production run).
What's a "Bay" Ship???

eww to the 9th power.

I'm guessing on this, from what I saw in the promo for the next EP, looks like Doc found something in an exam Of Craprica six, could it be Two Cylons procreated? Could Cylons/humans that have been to Earth, be able to reproduce.

If earth based Cylons can reproduce, I would assume they evolved enough to be just like us, no need for resurrection.

I think Adama may have serious doubts about Tigh, first he countermands his orders for no operant reason, then he finds out there are 5 final models in his fleet, I think from the body language Adama suspects Tigh.

Yeah, I was thinking his singing was an overly melodrama-queen element. I kept screaming at the tv, "TAKE YOUR FRAKKIN' MORPHINE AND SHADDIT...SHATINUP!!!"That would be "morpha" :). I thought that his singing was okay, given the choice of song, but him singing that over and over must be driving the people in sickbay INSANE. You'd think that someone ambulatory would walk over there and smother the frakker with his pillow, or at least that Doc Cottle would keep him too sedated to sing until he could release him :D.

We know that they're around 39,000 humans left. Wonder how many cylons are left (in this production run).Cavil made a statement in some recent episode indicating that there are millions of copies of each model.

In the final episode I definitely got the feeling of a "setup". It looked as though the Natalie 6 and the Leobin/Sharons didn't agree with what they should do about the alliance. Leobin/Sharon sends Natalie 6 to the Galactica to leave her swinging in the wind and at the same time capture Roslin. Geez, a little more web-weaving going on. Makes me wonder if Athena was consciously in on the gig as well.

I'm confused- is Athena's kid walking around real or a vision? :confused: I'm lost with all of these "identical" models walking around, too!

I'm confused- is Athena's kid walking around real or a vision? :confused: I'm lost with all of these "identical" models walking around, too!

Really walking...and saying "bye bye" to Athena..and drawing pictures of her with #6.

I'm confused- is Athena's kid walking around real or a vision? :confused: I'm lost with all of these "identical" models walking around, too!The vision that Athena, Roslin and Caprica Six have shared has Hera running around the Opera House on ancient Kobol, with both Six and Athena pursuing her. Six catches her and she and Baltar walk through a door with her holding Hera, which slowly closes in Athena's face. Roslin is there and witnesses this.

In this week's episode, Hera is running through the real corridors of Galactica; Natalie/Six is visiting Galactica to talk to Admiral Adama to stall their attack on the Ressurection Hub, to give Leoben time to defuse the trap that she's set up with the Centurions, since she thinks that their lying to the humans might offend the Final Five. (Natalie is discernable from most Six's because her hair is a few shades darker than their typical platinum blonde). She's being escorted through the corridors under heavy guard, accompanied by Tigh, when Hera runs up to her. She stoops down to hug the child and when Athena rounds the corner and sees them, she pulls her gun and has Tyrol get the child and take her away. When she knows that Hera is far enough away not to hear her, she shoots Natalie down, apparently afraid that the vision fortells one of the Sixes permanently taking Hera away from her. That's happening in real life, not a vision.

Yes, I'm aware that in the shooting scene, everything is real. I guess my mind is blank wrt when Hera and Athena were reunited (so it seems like Hera is a "vision" in all of those earlier scenes).

My other comment was just acknowledging that there sure are a lot 6's and Boomers running around. I know they are not exactly identical. It's just a lot to keep track of. ;)

That would be "morpha" :). I thought that his singing was okay, given the choice of song, but him singing that over and over must be driving the people in sickbay INSANE. You'd think that someone ambulatory would walk over there and smother the frakker with his pillow, or at least that Doc Cottle would keep him too sedated to sing until he could release him :D.

In the grand scheme of things all the attention paid to Gaetea being shot in the leg and his subsequent surgery has nothing at all to do with the overall storyline.

I'm hoping there is some significance to his plight that hasn't been disclosed yet. Oherwise it has been simply a sideshow created solely to demonstrate the talent of the composer and the singer. That would be a real shame.

fafner

I had recorded this week's episode, just got to watch it. Wow! Again they are just firing on all cylinders on this show. I hope they can keep this up all the way to the conclusion. I really think this show is going to get it's recognition someday later, when it's all over and it can looked upon in it's entirety. The depth of the characters combined with the sheer scope of the story is just amazing.

Yeah, the hybrid screaming jump was pretty good. That's one of those unexpected twist that I like a lot.

Unexpected? My first thought when they suggested talking to the hybrid was, "What if the hybrid does her own thing?"

Sorry, the whole episode just had a lot of deus ex machina going on. After the 57 previous contrivances that episode, one big one with baltar and the Prez just felt right.

Oddly, in its lame way, the whole episode actually worked well. For all the contrivances, the story moved fast, which is a welcome break from the 900 hours of Baltar's sonorous, crappy sermonizing on how CyGod totally loves broken losers.

Also, while it is a contrivance, the contrivance itself doesn't change the big question: where the hell did the hybrid take them?

I'm not really understanding how the word contrivance fits into any of those sentences...

So you're saying the whole episode felt plotted and planned? Isn't that the whole idea behind the show...to write a plot?

Hey... maybe Gaeta is a hybrid!

He serves some of the same functions on Galactica that the hybrid does on the Cylon ship... he just isn't plugged in to anything.

:)

Hey... maybe Gaeta is a hybrid!

He serves some of the same functions on Galactica that the hybrid does on the Cylon ship... he just isn't plugged in to anything.

:)

....that thought crossed my mind too.

What was he trying to accomplish by not being put under during the amputation? Although he said that he didn't want to wake up missing a leg, did he want to experience the process similar to how 6 was telling Col Tigh to feel the pain?

Hey... maybe Gaeta is a hybrid!

He serves some of the same functions on Galactica that the hybrid does on the Cylon ship... he just isn't plugged in to anything.
:)
....that thought crossed my mind too.
Mmmm, same here, particularly with the repetitiveness of the song lyrics. The hybrid often repeats the same phrase. He 'fits' for purposes of consistency with the hybrid model. Perhaps that is why he aided the New Caprica rebels, i.e. he knew the rebel cylons would eventually require the humans help.

Then again, with RDM, this could be just another indicia of his penchant for misdirection. :confused:

What was he trying to accomplish by not being put under during the amputation? Although he said that he didn't want to wake up missing a leg, did he want to experience the process similar to how 6 was telling Col Tigh to feel the pain?
Actually, I was thinking along a different line. IF Gaeta actually was a 'hybrid', he might have serious concerns with regard to what he might inadvertently reveal under anesthesia.

BTW, don't know if this has been mentioned, but didn't the girl in the Quiznos commercial look an awful lot like Callie?

__________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

:D

Human Cylons, who no longer remembered they were Cylons, and who no longer remembered Earth, created the "first" mechanized Cylons. And the "first" mechanized Cylons then created the human Cylons. So the cycle goes on and on!!!@@@

Am I really the first to come up with this theory, which is as good as any, isn't it?:D
Actually, I've had a similar theory for awhile, except it starts one step before yours, with one extra piece....
The easiest explanation here is that the original colonists wanted to forget. Something so terrible happened that they all agreed to erase it from their records and not teach it to their children... and so history "starts over" to some extent.
Since the series has unabashedly (and rightfully) villified the horrors of war as its theme, particularly during modern times with super-weapons and the advent of global destruction, a logical connection can be reached.

The Earth 'War' was initially between two or more superpowers. To avoid the use of global destruction, conventional warfare was observed., i.e. humans from one side fighting humans from another, to determine the outcome. But due to the avoidance of nuclear weapons, conventional weapons for military warfare needed to be 'upgraded'. So experiments began with grafting cybernetic enhacements onto human beings. This was the 'terrible thing' that happened, which HDMe2 alludes to, that must be ultimately concealed. The enhancements are sucessful to some extent, and each of the warring nations seek to gain supremacy, at the expense of grafting more and more supplements to its soldiers, who once were human, until the human race has essentially been supplanted as the dominant species completely by the continually evolving cyborgs. And then one day the cyborgs discovered their concealed historical records and were fascinated by their heritage, and so determined to once again 'evolve' by 'de-borging' cylons and attempting to regain their humanity.

Of course, these are the rumblings of a Sunday morning mind, so ...;)

_________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

In the grand scheme of things all the attention paid to Gaetea being shot in the leg and his subsequent surgery has nothing at all to do with the overall storyline.

I'm hoping there is some significance to his plight that hasn't been disclosed yet. Oherwise it has been simply a sideshow created solely to demonstrate the talent of the composer and the singer. That would be a real shame.

fafnerWell, they've already kind of tied the lyrics of the song to the situation of the unplugged Hybrid on the damaged Basestar, who wakes, and screams "Jump!" just as Gaeta is singing "To have her please, just one day wake". I doubt that we're meant to believe that Gaeta was thinking of her, whom he has never seen in any case.

I'm sure that Gaeta will have a heavy role in the future. He's jammed packed with bitterness and resentment against Helo, Starbuck and Anders, all of whom combined to precipitate the loss of his leg. That's gotta play out somehow.

....that thought crossed my mind too.

What was he trying to accomplish by not being put under during the amputation? Although he said that he didn't want to wake up missing a leg, did he want to experience the process similar to how 6 was telling Col Tigh to feel the pain?Except that I don't believe that he experienced any significant pain. He asked them to just numb everything up and leave him awake, which should be possible (some variety of spinal block), and if it wasn't, I don't think that the doctor would have agreed to do it. (I actually doubt that it'd be possible, because the pain would cause involuntury convulsions, though I guess that they could strap him down really, really well if they were determined to toture him that way). With a spinal block, he'd feel them tugging the limb, but not a lot else.

For more info on Gaeta's song check out Bear McCreary's Blog (http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=349)...

For more info on Gaeta's song check out Bear McCreary's Blog (http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=349)...That blog entry was already pointed out back here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13888089#post13888089), but thanks anyway.

Sorry :) missed it... some possibly reaveiling stuff in the promo's for next week if you pause and go frame to frame ;)

Minor quibbles: Wouldn't it have made more sense for Demetrius to jump back, explain what is going on, then have the basestar jump in? Wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic, though! ;)

Yeah, that was my only complaint about the episode, and it is a minor one. Overall, great drama this week.

Except that I don't believe that he experienced any significant pain.

Aside from the psychological trauma from knowing what's going on. Not to mention hearing the saw going through his leg. That's probably worse than any physical pain.

I'll have to go back and look, but I could've sworn that Anders shot him in the left leg.:confused:

BTW, don't know if this has been mentioned, but didn't the girl in the Quiznos commercial look an awful lot like Callie?

Cylon!

I also thought the episode was great.



Also, it reminded me a bit of Star Trek: A technical malfunction keeps the demetrius from jumping, and then a technical malfunction keeps the basestar from being able to communicate with Galactica. What are the odds?



The odds are pretty high if you consider sabotage. If one of the would be mutineers on the Demitrious sabotages the FTL and the wireless, then the base ship jumps into the fleet with no way to call off Galactica. Kara, Athena & Anders would be toast but for Tigh, perhaps sensing Anders. Certainly at least one of the crew would have had the motive particularly after Gaeta was shot.

At which point is it best [to watch] Razor?

At which point is it best [to watch] Razor?

Anytime;)

It was aired after season 3, hence that would be the logical order.

Anytime;)

It was aired after season 3, hence that would be the logical order.

Roger, that. Returning to base.

In the mini-series it did appear that Baltar did survive the what looked to be an after blast. 6 apparently "died" when she shielded him... and then their was Blatar out on the fields running for his life with all the others. The Head 6 is their, and I've seen her use some strength. Though Baltar can only see her, she is there and real. She's a Cyon, and she is their. And I believe that question will be answered.

Regarding the fifth, final Cylon model....
Remember the episode where Leoben (who was about to be air-locked) whispered in Roslin's ear the identity of a Cylon agent. Well, we know the identity of eleven models... and none of them was the one Leoben referred to.
He may have been frackin with her, but then again maybe he wasn't..... Hmmmmm....??? :eek::eek:

(Sig line) Emergency, everybody to get from street.
"What would the Russians be doing on United States of America island.... No, we, we are of course... Norveegans".
Love that movie :D

Anytime;)

It was aired after season 3, hence that would be the logical order.

I think it would be best after season 2.

So, why is it we have to wait 2 weeks for resolution to this cliff hanger?

Also, Gaeta's story was fit in nicely I thought, and the music really did add to the episode. It was really chilling in a way.

As said it wasn't significant in the two main plots in of itself, but it did act as a way of tieing them together nicely.

Now, Where did that basestar go? And whats to become of Natilee? I was growing rather fond of her.

More important, what of Athena?

I’m going to be pretty disappointed if we get a hardly laugh and Adama saying “oh, that’s our Athena, har, har, har”. Granted Natilee is a toster, but she was under the protection of the fleet. There has to be repercussions from Athena’s Actions. Discharging a weapon, premeditated (toaster) murder right in front of a marine escort. Especially since she is, herself, a cylon. Why would Adama trust a lose cannon like her, when they know for a fact she's a cylon, and running around popping cylons under his protection.

The most unbelievable thing is the actions of the military security detail. Granted they were there to keep an eye on the cylon, but they also would not have acted the way they did in a threat situation like that. What gives?

...snip...

The most unbelievable thing is the actions of the military security detail. Granted they were there to keep an eye on the cylon, but they also would not have acted the way they did in a threat situation like that. What gives?

They should take lessons from the Centurians. They put a cap in that human that was disconnecting the hybrid in a heartbeat. Better training, I guess. :)

Don't you think Athena shot the wrong Six? after all the visions were with Caprica Six, not Natalie Six, even the daughter draw the blonde six, not the brunette... mmmm

I also can't wait where the hybrid took the basestar..

Goof-off, Basestars run on windows XP, that's why the malfunction, maybe the Demetrius was running Vista and was slower..

http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=windowsxptd2.jpg

This bothered me, as well. For all of that security, they were sure ineffective at doing their job. Sure, they were told to standdown, but if 1 armed gunman opposition is all it takes to circumvent that security, what is the point of having security?

Don't you think Athena shot the wrong Six? after all the visions were with Caprica Six, not Natalie Six, even the daughter draw the blonde six, not the brunette... mmmm



Yeah, I'm having a little trouble with that too. Surely, she can't kill every Six that are still left alive in order to keep them all away from her precious little Hera. But it did seem to me like she kind of.... ah.... overreacted a teensy weensy bit. :eek:

At which point is it best [to watch] Razor?

I watched it last weekend (5/10/2008) and thought the timing was perfect.

Fish

The security was to protect the crew from six, not for six's protection.

Slow motion of next week's teaser shows what appears to be a conscious Natalie in a prone position ...

I watched it last weekend (5/10/2008) and thought the timing was perfect.

Fish

I finished the mini-series again, last night. I already watched S2, but have not seen S1. I have seen most of S3, and until last week, been watching S4 since it started.

In a few days I will have my hands on all of the disks, and plan an starting at the beginning. My plan is to watch S1 - S3, all in order. I'm considering NOT watching S4 at this point, and just keep recording for later till I get caught up.

Considering my whacky situation, where best in my plan should I insert Razor?

Considering my whacky situation, where best in my plan should I insert Razor?I would wait till end of Season 3 ...

I finished the mini-series again, last night. I already watched S2, but have not seen S1. I have seen most of S3, and until last week, been watching S4 since it started.

In a few days I will have my hands on all of the disks, and plan an starting at the beginning. My plan is to watch S1 - S3, all in order. I'm considering NOT watching S4 at this point, and just keep recording for later till I get caught up.

Considering my whacky situation, where best in my plan should I insert Razor?

I would wait until I finished S3, just to follow the order in which they were aired. Nothing in 'Razor' should be terribly impacted by what you haven't seen in S1. Oh, and you're in for a treat when you do get around to them. The first episode of the first season, "33", is one of the most tense, taut, nail-biting hours of TV you'll likely ever see, just a great episode which set the tone for all that's followed. Like a lot of folks here, I kind of envy you getting to watch them now for the first time. :cool:

Yes, 33 is definitely one of my all time favorite of the entire series!

So, why is it we have to wait 2 weeks for resolution to this cliff hanger?


memorial day weekend....yes we know everyone has dvrs but lets not go thru that again.

I would wait until I finished S3, just to follow the order in which they were aired. Nothing in 'Razor' should be terribly impacted by what you haven't seen in S1. Oh, and you're in for a treat when you do get around to them. The first episode of the first season, "33", is one of the most tense, taut, nail-biting hours of TV you'll likely ever see, just a great episode which set the tone for all that's followed. Like a lot of folks here, I kind of envy you getting to watch them now for the first time. :cool:
Where's the Haitian when you need him? ;)

Where's the Haitian when you need him? ;)

Umm, doing the nasty with mama Petrelli??

There's something to say for every time being the first. The blush is never off the rose. ;)

_____________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

This bothered me, as well. For all of that security, they were sure ineffective at doing their job. Sure, they were told to standdown, but if 1 armed gunman opposition is all it takes to circumvent that security, what is the point of having security?

Nobody wants to cross Tigh. They'll follow his orders no matter what, or he'll do gods knows what to them.:cool:

I would wait till end of Season 3 ...

Why would you wait until after season 3? Everything that happens in Razor is tied up by the end of Season 2. In fact Razor parallels Seasons 1 and 2. Waiting until after Season 3 is completely unnecessary. Plus I think that what takes place in Razor works better if seasons 1 and 2 are fresher on your mind.

Nobody wants to cross Tigh. They'll follow his orders no matter what, or he'll do gods knows what to them.:cool:

I agree there is a moment of reckoning there- are you there to protect the "package" en route or there to facilitate a sanctioned execution. What Tigh "allowed" to happen (and what the guards allowed to happen by following Tigh's orders) was an execution. Now I realize we wouldn't have a story w/o this scene, but it does require an unnecessary leap of disbelief suspension to premise this happening with a straight face. The only way to save the credibility for the scene, at this point, is some serious heads rolling and severe punitive measures demonstrated in the next episode...

(Hey, you'd think if the state of technology allows for ftl drives, somewhere along the way there should have been "a phaser that can be set to stun", eh? ;) ) ...or how about one of those armored guards tackling the 6 and covering her as a shield, presidential style? ...or maybe this is a "What would Starbuck Do" moment? :p

I agree, Razor fits best after season 2

I agree there is a moment of reckoning there- are you there to protect the "package" en route or there to facilitate a sanctioned execution. What Tigh "allowed" to happen (and what the guards allowed to happen by following Tigh's orders) was an execution. Now I realize we wouldn't have a story w/o this scene, but it does require an unnecessary leap of disbelief suspension to premise this happening with a straight face. The only way to save the credibility for the scene, at this point, is some serious heads rolling and severe punitive measures demonstrated in the next episode...

(Hey, you'd think if the state of technology allows for ftl drives, somewhere along the way there should have been "a phaser that can be set to stun", eh? ;) ) ...or how about one of those armored guards tackling the 6 and covering her as a shield, presidential style? ...or maybe this is a "What would Starbuck Do" moment? :p

All of this could be a big part of Tigh and Adama's fallout referenced in the previews for the 2-hour finale.

Could be...

If so, isn't it ironic that Tigh should be the point man to save the fleet from absolute catastrophe on the "Hold Fire" order on the ally basestar, but then also utterly fail the mission to deliver 6 from point A to point B, safe and sound? ;) I guess there are good days and bad days...sometimes in the same week!

Oh snap...the next one is the 2-hr finale?! I am seriously clueless about this. Seems like The End arrived all too quickly!

Oh snap...the next one is the 2-hr finale?! I am seriously clueless about this. Seems like The End arrived all too quickly!

i think 3 shows are left yet:

69. Sine Qua Non
First aired: 5/30/2008
A power struggle among the Colonials results when one of their leaders is abducted.
Writer: Michael Taylor

70. The Hub
First aired: 6/6/2008
Colonial Viper pilots plan an attack on the Resurrection Hub with their Cylon rebel allies.
Writer: Jane Espenson

71. Revelations
First aired: 6/13/2008
Rebel Cylons go to extreme measures to draw out the Final Five from the Colonial fleet.
Writer: David Weddle, Bradley Thompson

Why would you wait until after season 3? Everything that happens in Razor is tied up by the end of Season 2. In fact Razor parallels Seasons 1 and 2. Waiting until after Season 3 is completely unnecessary. Plus I think that what takes place in Razor works better if seasons 1 and 2 are fresher on your mind.Because Razor is technically the first episode of Season 4...

Ok, I can handle 3 shows! That sounds about right to wrap it all up. :D

Because Razor is technically the first episode of Season 4...

Yeah, that's right. Moore and Co. think of 'Razor' as the first 2 hours of S-4 and refer to it that way in their internal correspondence. And what happens at the end is better appreciated if you've just come off S-3 since it relates directly to events that will transpire in S-4.

Ok, I can handle 3 shows! That sounds about right to wrap it all up. :D

Remember that this will only be the end of the first half of the 4th season; still 10 eps to go, probably next year. But I'm sure they'll leave us with a doozy of a cliffhanger, if history is any indication.

Because Razor is technically the first episode of Season 4...

Uh... No it's not. It came out between 3 and 4 as a stand alone mini-series. As I already said, it's time line and story runs parallel with seasons 1 and 2.

Could be...

If so, isn't it ironic that Tigh should be the point man to save the fleet from absolute catastrophe on the "Hold Fire" order on the ally basestar, but then also utterly fail the mission to deliver 6 from point A to point B, safe and sound? ;) I guess there are good days and bad days...sometimes in the same week!

Oh snap...the next one is the 2-hr finale?! I am seriously clueless about this. Seems like The End arrived all too quickly!


I think that all could be to hi-light Tigh's internal conflicts. Both consciously and unconsciously.

Remember that this will only be the end of the first half of the 4th season; still 10 eps to go, probably next year. But I'm sure they'll leave us with a doozy of a cliffhanger, if history is any indication.

Ah, man! [towlie voice] I have no idea what's goin' on, then!...stupid "half-seasons"! Who's the wise guy that though up the idea of a "season" broken into however many pieces you please?

Ah, man! [towlie voice] I have no idea what's goin' on, then!...stupid "half-seasons"! Who's the wise guy that though up the idea of a "season" broken into however many pieces you please?

The Frakin Bean Counters at Sci-Fi.

They should just call it Miniseries installment 1, Miniseries 2, Miniseries 3...

Uh... No it's not. It came out between 3 and 4 as a stand alone mini-series. As I already said, it's time line and story runs parallel with seasons 1 and 2.

Uh, yes it is.

http://www.hulu.com/battlestar-galactica

Take a look at the episode numbers for season 4. Guess what episodes 4.01 and 4.02 are? Yes...Razor.

Where the story fits into the time-line doesn't really change the fact that Razor is considered to be the first two episodes of season 4. I don't really think it should be either, but that's the way it is.

Uh, yes it is.

http://www.hulu.com/battlestar-galactica

Take a look at the episode numbers for season 4. Guess what episodes 4.01 and 4.02 are? Yes...Razor.

Where the story fits into the time-line doesn't really change the fact that Razor is considered to be the first two episodes of season 4. I don't really think it should be either, but that's the way it is.And your "proof" that it's part of season 4 is that Hulu, a start-up whose days are clearly numbered, thinks it is?

IMDb doesn't list Razor among the episodes of BSG. TV.com does, but it shows it marked "Special" with no episode number. The fact is that if you never saw Razor you wouldn't have any problem following the plot of the series.

Doesn't this dispute sound eerily familiar to the sorts of geeky discussions you would find Trekkies arguing over, regarding that Pike dude and episode #'s? :p I think it was all deftly orchestrated by RDM... ;)

And your "proof" that it's part of season 4 is that Hulu, a start-up whose days are clearly numbered, thinks it is?

IMDb doesn't list Razor among the episodes of BSG. TV.com does, but it shows it marked "Special" with no episode number. The fact is that if you never saw Razor you wouldn't have any problem following the plot of the series.

Exactly. Besides, 'Painterpaul' specifically asked, "At which point is it best [to watch] Razor?" Which I replied, "Between seasons 2 and 3." And I gave reasons why. He didn't ask when it came out. And he didn't ask if it had an episode number.

And your "proof" that it's part of season 4 is that Hulu, a start-up whose days are clearly numbered, thinks it is?

IMDb doesn't list Razor among the episodes of BSG. TV.com does, but it shows it marked "Special" with no episode number. The fact is that if you never saw Razor you wouldn't have any problem following the plot of the series.

Um, yes? Hulu is directly tied into NBCU, whereas imdb is as inaccurate, as, well, imdb.

They don't even have the air-dates correct (They still list part 2 of "Guess" as airing this Friday).

But since hulu.com doesn't satisfy you: http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/index.php

Notice what's listed first? Even on the SciFi forums this last episode is 4.09.

And I don't really care what the episode number is, I was just trying to point out that TPTB consider it to be part of season 4.

Oh and the speech the hybrid makes in Razor is pretty important. You probably could skip it, but it adds a lot to the mystery of season 4.

Full seasons are 22 episodes.

Razor is 401 and 402

We get 403-412 this year

We get 413-422 next year

Yeah, that's right. Moore and Co. think of 'Razor' as the first 2 hours of S-4 and refer to it that way in their internal correspondence.

NBC/Universal also treated Razor as the first episodes of Season 4, for purposes of budget and schedule. The fact that Sci-Fi decided to air it as a movie event, between seasons, is a marketing decision. However, since it's a flashback, the actual season it aired doesn't mean as much as the story timeline.

Personally, I'd wait to watch Razor after the episodes surrounding Admiral Kane. I think it's more interesting to find out why she allowed the mistreatment of the Six AFTER her story arc, rather than before. It makes it a more suspensful reveal. But I don't know that I would bother waiting all the way to season 4.

Doesn't this dispute sound eerily familiar to the sorts of geeky discussions you would find Trekkies arguing over, regarding that Pike dude and episode #'s

or kinda like in "Family Guy: Blue Harvest" when Peter says "This is the story of Star Wars. Let's start with Episode 4".

If so, isn't it ironic that Tigh should be the point man to save the fleet from absolute catastrophe on the "Hold Fire" order on the ally basestar

I don't know about 'abosolute catastrophe'. They would have lost a few officers and an interesting opportunity if they blew up the base star. Sad, but not dire. We still don't know if the decision to not shoot could result in WORSE circumstances.

Exactly. Besides, 'Painterpaul' specifically asked, "At which point is it best [to watch] Razor?" Which I replied, "Between seasons 2 and 3." And I gave reasons why. He didn't ask when it came out. And he didn't ask if it had an episode number.

That’s correct. Most of you guys have been blessed with having the time to have actually followed the show from the beginning. I know Razor was released after S3. I was just wondering… knowing what you all know… when it might be best to be introduced to Razor. I don’t eve knowhow long it is. A few hours? I get completely immersed in this stuff, and it’s great to just go with the flow. I’d not want to be pulled out of that flow.

I suppose if it’s between S2 and S3, it would probably be ok. I could re-watch the last S2 ep just before kicking off S3.

Thanks to all.

There are essentially 2 options where to put Razor. As mentioned above it was aired after S3, which is one option to watch. Or the other option would be after "The Captains Hand" (S2.17), which is where it fits timeline wise, at least for those parts that play at the "present" time of Razor.
Watching it at the end of S2 doesn't make a lot of sense, since that's in the middle of the New Caprica storyline.

That’s correct. Most of you guys have been blessed with having the time to have actually followed the show from the beginning. I know Razor was released after S3. I was just wondering… knowing what you all know… when it might be best to be introduced to Razor. I don’t eve knowhow long it is. A few hours? I get completely immersed in this stuff, and it’s great to just go with the flow. I’d not want to be pulled out of that flow.

I suppose if it’s between S2 and S3, it would probably be ok. I could re-watch the last S2 ep just before kicking off S3.

Thanks to all.

There is a certain revelation in Razor that I think places it best just before season 4, and after season 3. I can't say what it is without getting all spoilery, but I think certain events later in season 3 have more of an impact if you haven't seen Razor yet.

And it's about 2 hours long (unedited version anyway).

There is a certain revelation in Razor that I think places it best just before season 4, and after season 3. I can't say what it is without getting all spoilery, but I think certain events later in season 3 have more of an impact if you haven't seen Razor yet.

And it's about 2 hours long (unedited version anyway).

I agree. There are certain revelations that fit after season 3, as it was shown. There are certain revelations in Razor that may ruin some reveals in season 3 if you view it out of the order it was shown in.

Back to the episode at hand ...

Why do you think Baltar was in the hospital while Felix was singing ?

...needed to score weekly supply of contraceptives from the med office. I kid, I kid! :p

Back to the episode at hand ...

Why do you think Baltar was in the hospital while Felix was singing ?

He was getting a penicillin shot. So many groupies and only one member.

Um, yes? Hulu is directly tied into NBCU, whereas imdb is as inaccurate, as, well, imdb.

They don't even have the air-dates correct (They still list part 2 of "Guess" as airing this Friday).

But since hulu.com doesn't satisfy you: http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/index.php

Notice what's listed first? Even on the SciFi forums this last episode is 4.09.

And I don't really care what the episode number is, I was just trying to point out that TPTB consider it to be part of season 4.

Oh and the speech the hybrid makes in Razor is pretty important. You probably could skip it, but it adds a lot to the mystery of season 4.Okay--you have points there (and I didn't realize that Hulu was a part of NBC). I stand corrected.

I still think that Razor kind of stands to the side of the main story and can easily be skipped. I feel certain that it won't come packaged in the Season 4 DVD set.

Back to the episode at hand ...

Why do you think Baltar was in the hospital while Felix was singing ?

Baltar has a history with Gaeta. Remember, Gaeta was his assistant when he was President on New Caprica. They were close at one time. I suppose Baltar was concerned about him.


Regarding Razor, I just wanted to add my voice to those recommending watching it after Season 3. Then again, Painter Paul, you are watching things out of order anyway, aren't you? I can't remember if you've been watching Season 4 or not. If so, there may be no real reason for you to wait. As moob said, the main reason to wait until after Season 3 is because of the "revelation" at the end of Razor that is addressed early in Season 4.

I also think Razor sort of comes across as a lot of rehash of the Pegasus story. Personally for me, it worked better having not seen those episodes for a while. I think if I'd watched Razor immediately following those episodes, I would've felt like I was just seeing stuff that had already been talked about in those episodes played out on screen.

Back to the episode at hand ...

Why do you think Baltar was in the hospital while Felix was singing ?

It's been implied that Baltar has a bit of a friendship with Gaeta despite all that has gone terribly wrong.

The recurring theme of BSG is forgiveness. Go as far back as S1, when Adama and Starbuck are talking about Zack's death. Right thru Baltar's trial, the question of why and when we forgive is right there.

Of all the people whose forgiveness Baltar really does need, Gaeta's forgiveness is up there. Of all the people in the fleet, Gaeta is probably the closest thing Baltar ever had to a real friend. And what did Gaeta get to show for it? He was almost thrown out an airlock for it!!

And there is also the underpinning theme of music as a cue for the characters' actions. Maybe Baltar sought out Gaeta's singing the same way Tigh & Co sought out the music at the nebula.

Oh yeah !

Forgot about their history ...

Hopefully there's some resolution to their "past", as I'm still curious was to what Baltar told Felix, that almost got him killed !

Oh yeah !

Forgot about their history ...

Hopefully there's some resolution to their "past", as I'm still curious was to what Baltar told Felix, that almost got him killed !Gaeta was Baltar's aide when he was President of the Colonies on New Caprica. He was almost killed by a group of insurrectionists which included Tigh and Anders after the escape, who were judging various people as Cylon collaborators. Gaeta had been the mysterious figure feeding inside information to the insurrection; his knowledge of details of how the information was dropped was all that kept him alive. They dropped the witch hunt after almost making that horrible error.

Gaeta also detected Roslin's attempt to steal the election which won Baltar the Presidency and blew the whistle, probably why he was chosen as his aide.

Loco,

Yeah, I’m all buggered up with what I’ve seen and the order. I was watching S4, but haven’t really studied last week’s ep. I thought that maybe I’d stop watching it altogether now that I will have my hands on the whole series in a day or so. I’m DVR’ing S4 in any event, because I’ve needed to watch each show more than once anyway. It will be there for me.

I don’t know. It’s looking like it might be best seen between SE and S4. That’s for me, because I’ve been watching the show not unlike a Bit Torrent. I don’t think the experience will be ruined for me, though, because I am essentially at the starting point (again). Most importantly, I was thinking about watching Razor first… and I can see by the responses that wouldn’t be wise.

Thanks for your insight.

Okay--you have points there (and I didn't realize that Hulu was a part of NBC). I stand corrected.

I still think that Razor kind of stands to the side of the main story and can easily be skipped. I feel certain that it won't come packaged in the Season 4 DVD set.

I don't think they'd package it as part of season 4 either. I'm guessing they made a healthy profit with Razor (does anyone have numbers?), so I don't think they'd shoot themselves in the foot.

As for Gaeta and Baltar...they've been hinting that there's something going between the two of them for a while now, so hopefully they unveil what that something is. O_o

But didn't Gaeta lie on the stand about Baltar signing the termination order? I would think Baltar would find it difficult to forgive that insult. I bet he was there merely so we the audience would know he heard the song (which must come up again, I would think) or he might try to enlist Gaetas help.

Tighe WANTED Natalie dead. When she said Three could identify the final 5 he about had a stroke. My guess is that he was HOPING something would happen to scrub the mission (or turn it into a full strike rather than a commando raid).

I think it would be AWESOME if Anders is killed during the attack and pops out of a resurrection bath just as Starbuck and co burst in to "unbox" Three. Even if they don't recover the base star with Baltar and Laura, looks like they still carry on with the attack.

Methinks poor Athena is gonna be back in the brig, AGAIN. Either that or she and Hera (and maybe Helo) are gonna take off in a Raptor for parts unknown and probably get caught by other cylons.

On a side note, is anyone other than me suprised that they can still reach cylon occupied space so easily? They have made how many jumps? I would think that they would be so far away that anything relating to the old colonial space would be all but unreachable by now.

Remember when they jumped back to Caprica to rescue Anders and company... 7 or so jumps and the one Raptor that malfunctioned found New Caprica...

Yeah, but that was back before tehy struck off towards the eye of Jupiter, right? I figured in the beginning with eps like "33" theat even though they were making hundreds of jumps, they were sticking close to colonial space because they had no other options. But once they found Kobol and took off, seems to me that they ought to be hundreds of light years away, especially if the very stars look different from Earth. Guess they have never really explained just how far you can jump, indeed, what was once a fairly elaborate affair is pretty commonplace now :)

Cylon occupied space...

Is that where the resurrection hub is? I missed that if that is where they said it was...

Could it be that the entire cylon fleet, including the hub, is on the move and slowly trailing the basestars that are tracking the human fleet?

I think it would be AWESOME if Anders is killed during the attack and pops out of a resurrection bath just as Starbuck and co burst in to "unbox" Three.Remember, there has to be a "blank" body for him to be downloaded into. I imagine that there are "ressurection workers" who obtain the appropriate model "blank" from storage and place it in a prepared goo bath, plug it into the central computer and initiate the download. They don't just "appear" in the tub. I don't think that resurrection is an option for the Final Five, since if "blanks" for them existed, the other models would have seen them.

Rumor has it that SciFi is looking at doing up to 3 more 'Razor'-style movies for broadcast between these two halves of the fourth and final season. The always reliable (and huge BSG fan - bless her heart) Maureen Ryan reports the full story here (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/05/more-battlestar.html) for those who are interested.

In other news, looks like they're going to finish up filming the entire fourth season by June. Any actors appearing in any of these three proposed telemovies will presumably have to enter into separate contracts for those. How they'll keep spoilers on the series finale from leaking for an entire year after they've wrapped is an interesting question. :confused: :eek: We'll all just have to be careful I guess.

Rumor has it that SciFi is looking at doing up to 3 more 'Razor'-style movies for broadcast between these two halves of the fourth and final season. The always reliable (and huge BSG fan - bless her heart) Maureen Ryan reports the full story here (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2008/05/more-battlestar.html) for those who are interested.

In other news, looks like they're going to finish up filming the entire fourth season by June. Any actors appearing in any of these three proposed telemovies will presumably have to enter into separate contracts for those. How they'll keep spoilers on the series finale from leaking for an entire year after they've wrapped is an interesting question. :confused: :eek: We'll all just have to be careful I guess.

Wow, Archi.. you couldn't have brought better news to almost make up for a crummy day at work !! Three more movies !! Awesome, if true !!!

Regarding the leaks during the hiatus, I think all involved with this show share the collective pride in their work and realize what it means to their fans, so I don't think they would spoilerize anything.

Maybe they'll shaw the first half of each movie, then the other half next year.

Wow, Archi.. you couldn't have brought better news to almost make up for a crummy day at work !! Three more movies !! Awesome, if true !!!

Regarding the leaks during the hiatus, I think all involved with this show share the collective pride in their work and realize what it means to their fans, so I don't think they would spoilerize anything.

Apparently, for the first time, the entire cast and crew have had to sign confidentiality agreements. They have been much less forthcoming with information in recent interviews than in the past. I also heard they aren't allowed to take their scripts off the set where they used to have them emailed to them.

However, I still think it's going to be next to impossible to keep everything under wraps until next year, if we have to wait that long. All it takes is one person to run his/her mouth.

I predict an appearance of a Cloverfield!

starbuck....well the actress....is doin a 4 episode arc on nip/tuck.

Remember when they jumped back to Caprica to rescue Anders and company... 7 or so jumps and the one Raptor that malfunctioned found New Caprica...

They were using a cylon computer to calculate the jumps, otherwise it would have taken them hundreds of jumps, with the Galactica, even more with raptors, if they could have made it back at all. They're so far out now, that it would probably take the cylons more than a few jumps to get back to the Colonies.

Could it be that the entire cylon fleet, including the hub, is on the move and slowly trailing the basestars that are tracking the human fleet?

That's what they said in the episode. The hub follows the cylon fleet(s), but stays far away and jumps regularly.

That's what they said in the episode. The hub follows the cylon fleet(s), but stays far away and jumps regularly.

The Cylons not-quite-plan has a lot of horrific flaws.

It seems like a big vulnerability to have the hub moving anywhere at all. You'd think you'd find the biggest, densest iron-filled asteroid and build it inside that, and then surround the asteroid with troops.

I have to admit, I really don't get why the Centurions tolerate the human models at all. For that matter, seemingly, why the Centurions ever built the human models in the first place.

Cripes. The Centurions are the only part of the whole Cylon force that is actually scary. And they're subjugated to the dumbest whims of the human models.

I still desperately keep waiting for the freed Centurions to just slaughter everyone. It will be too awesome for words.

They were using a cylon computer to calculate the jumps, otherwise it would have taken them hundreds of jumps, with the Galactica, even more with raptors, if they could have made it back at all. They're so far out now, that it would probably take the cylons more than a few jumps to get back to the Colonies.



That's what they said in the episode. The hub follows the cylon fleet(s), but stays far away and jumps regularly.Nope they were depending on Athena, albeit a cylon, but not a cylon computer ;)

I have to admit, I really don't get why the Centurions tolerate the human models at all. For that matter, seemingly, why the Centurions ever built the human models in the first place.

Cripes. The Centurions are the only part of the whole Cylon force that is actually scary. And they're subjugated to the dumbest whims of the human models.

I still desperately keep waiting for the freed Centurions to just slaughter everyone. It will be too awesome for words.

There's obviously more to Cylon hierchy than we know about. There seems to be an implied high command structure which goes far beyond the Centurions or even the Human models. I think the fly in the Cylon ointment is that the Human models are a little 'too' Human. And their biological halves are reeking a little havoc with the Cylon halves.

2009 for the end of Season 4 would do a MAJOR dis-service to the fans...they need to air it in the Fall...

Maybe they'll shaw the first half of each movie, then the other half next year.
LOL, would be funnier if it wasn't so close to the truth.

2009 for the end of Season 4 would do a MAJOR dis-service to the fans...they need to air it in the Fall...

Don't think they will. Remember they announced this dizzy plan last year prior to the end of S3.

There's obviously more to Cylon hierchy than we know about. There seems to be an implied high command structure which goes far beyond the Centurions or even the Human models. I think the fly in the Cylon ointment is that the Human models are a little 'too' Human. And their biological halves are reeking a little havoc with the Cylon halves.

I have thought about the human models/centurions for a while. The centurions are just too dumb to have created the human models. There has got to be some higher intelligence that has yet to be introduced regarding the development and building of the human models. And I don't think it is the final five - I think there is something "lording" above all the cylons that they have never even mentioned. What the skinjobs refer to as the cylon God? The "break-away" Lord of Kobol? Something else?

2009 for the end of Season 4 would do a MAJOR dis-service to the fans...they need to air it in the Fall...

It's NBCUniversal's way of spreading the cost out to make the show viable for them. Instead of all the costs lump summed into one year, they can spread it to two. Otherwise the show's ratings don't warrant the $$ they spend on it. Or so i remember reading way back when.

It's NBCUniversal's way of spreading the cost out to make the show viable for them. Instead of all the costs lump summed into one year, they can spread it to two. Otherwise the show's ratings don't warrant the $$ they spend on it. Or so i remember reading way back when.

That's about the size of it. Considering the considerable buzz factor of this show - it has to be the most talked about, written about, speculated about, and all-around-gushed-over scripted drama on TV next to LOST - the ratings of only about 2 to 2.5 million viewers on SciFi completely baffle me. It's almost like that can't possibly be right. 'The Closer' on TNT, a basic, competent cop procedural not really much different than any of the other 275 cop procedurals on the tube, gets about 3 times as many eyeballs - and it has virtually no buzz whatsoever.

It's a tough road these days for smart, complex pure-serialized shows. They've essentially ceased to exist on the Big Four networks except for LOST. I don't begin to understand it. Maybe America's collective IQ is, in fact, dwindling as some suggest. Scary thought, that.

Well, the writer's of BSG only have themselves to blame. The dip in ratings started during last season's crappy-ass 'filler' episodes, and have never recovered. And this season's over-the-top obsession with "Roslin", isn't helping things either. I remember reading an interview with the creators of the show right after season 2, during it's peak in popularity. One of the guys said something to the effect of, "With the show being so popular, it's up to us to NOT SCREW IT UP." Evedently, they didn't heed their own advice. Now obviously, the weak episodes and weak moments haven't been enough to chase me away. But the same can't be said for the masses.

Of course, there are plenty of us who saw no decrease in quality from an amazing S-3. Those "crappy-ass filler" episodes all serve to broaden and enrich the viewer's experience, and give us a peak at what's happening elsewhere in the fleet while our heroes are engaged in all that daring-do. And, it can't be said enough, being on a cable channel means they don't have the budget to do huge whopper episodes every week; they require a certain number of "bottle" episodes in order to marshal their resources and balance the limited budget they've been given. It's amazing that some people still don't get that.

In fact, the only episode I ever saw that I was kinda' disappointed in was the Black Market episode. But even that was redeemed by knowing that, hey, that sort of stuff is probably going to happen in the fleet, there will be profiteers no matter how bleak the collective situation, and it's nice to see them acknowledge it. And it starred Bill frakkin' Duke, ferpetesake!

And it starred Bill frakkin' Duke, ferpetesake!

"Anytime...."
"Turnaround..."


Name that movie!

"Anytime...."
"Turnaround..."


Name that movie!

Predator springs to mind.:D

I have thought about the human models/centurions for a while. The centurions are just too dumb to have created the human models. There has got to be some higher intelligence that has yet to be introduced regarding the development and building of the human models. And I don't think it is the final five - I think there is something "lording" above all the cylons that they have never even mentioned. What the skinjobs refer to as the cylon God? The "break-away" Lord of Kobol? Something else?

Have we seen any indication that the Centurions are capable of communication with a human? I do not recall any. If not, then how was the peace treaty agreed to at the end of the first war? Kinda hard to agree to anything when you can't talk to the one trying to kill you!

I have thought about the human models/centurions for a while. The centurions are just too dumb to have created the human models. There has got to be some higher intelligence that has yet to be introduced regarding the development and building of the human models. And I don't think it is the final five - I think there is something "lording" above all the cylons that they have never even mentioned. What the skinjobs refer to as the cylon God? The "break-away" Lord of Kobol? Something else?

Imperius Leader anyone?

Have we seen any indication that the Centurions are capable of communication with a human? I do not recall any. If not, then how was the peace treaty agreed to at the end of the first war? Kinda hard to agree to anything when you can't talk to the one trying to kill you!

Well, I know in the original series the centurions were quite the chatterboxes.

However, I don't recall any of the current ones having any conversations. They do understand what to do when given an order, but I haven't heard one, "By Your Command" from any of them. :D

Actually, the "original" centurion cylons DID exist in the new series. They were shown in Razor, including the "By your command..." line. So presumably the leader unit existed as well to negotiate the peace.

IIRC I believe we have seen the CGI centurion models communicate with each other. I seem to recall seeing them squeak to each other during the early episodes with Boomer and Helo on Caprica. But that was years ago and my memory may be faulty.

I have thought about the human models/centurions for a while. The centurions are just too dumb to have created the human models. There has got to be some higher intelligence that has yet to be introduced regarding the development and building of the human models. And I don't think it is the final five - I think there is something "lording" above all the cylons that they have never even mentioned. What the skinjobs refer to as the cylon God? The "break-away" Lord of Kobol? Something else?The "skinjobs" never say "Cylon God"--they say "God" and insist that he's God of everyone, Cylon and Human. He is quite obviously a mystical, non-coporeal force.

I agree though that we've been given no indication of how Cylons evolved. They started as servants (and I have to think that the Centurions were created by the first Cylons, though it's possible that the Colonial made armed robotic guards--incredibly foolish, but possible). The nature of the first Cylons, how they organized themselves and created a revolt powerful enough to fight the Colonies to standstill is a complete mystery which will hopefully be exposed in the upcoming Caprica series. Hopefully we learn at least something more about it in BSG.

Well, the writer's of BSG only have themselves to blame. The dip in ratings started during last season's crappy-ass 'filler' episodes, and have never recovered. And this season's over-the-top obsession with "Roslin", isn't helping things either. I remember reading an interview with the creators of the show right after season 2, during it's peak in popularity. One of the guys said something to the effect of, "With the show being so popular, it's up to us to NOT SCREW IT UP." Evedently, they didn't heed their own advice. Now obviously, the weak episodes and weak moments haven't been enough to chase me away. But the same can't be said for the masses.

Roslin is only played by one of the top tier actors on the show. That character was criminally ignored last season and I, for one, am happy to see such a terrific actress finally have some interesting to do again. In fact, from my perspective, the marginalization of Roslin last season was one of the problems of Season 3. I would argue they focused a bit much on secondary characters at times last year. I still enjoyed Season 3 a lot, but I do think it sagged in the middle, though the first five hours were the best thing I've ever seen on TV.

Nope they were depending on Athena, albeit a cylon, but not a cylon computer ;)

They had her "hooking" herself up to a cylon navigation computer that they has salvaged from the heavy raider brought back from Caprica. They couldn't have done it without her and the computer, because they couldn't make the thing work by itself.

Roslin is only played by one of the top tier actors on the show. That character was criminally ignored last season and I, for one, am happy to see such a terrific actress finally have some interesting to do again. In fact, from my perspective, the marginalization of Roslin last season was one of the problems of Season 3. I would argue they focused a bit much on secondary characters at times last year. I still enjoyed Season 3 a lot, but I do think it sagged in the middle, though the first five hours were the best thing I've ever seen on TV.


My issue with 'Roslin' isn't the actress playing her, or her acting ability. This show has a very large esemble cast. And many of them are top-tier actors as well.

My issue with 'Roslin' isn't the actess playing her, or her acting ability. This show has a very large esemble cast. And many of them are top-tier actors as well.Huh? They're all relative unknowns except for McDonald and Olmos (and Hatch, but he's only known for the old BSG). Many of them are doing bang-up jobs in these roles, but they none of the young people who are the leads of this series can be described as "top tier", which implies great fame and deep, good reputation.

Roslin is only played by one of the top tier actors on the show. That character was criminally ignored last season and I, for one, am happy to see such a terrific actress finally have some interesting to do again. In fact, from my perspective, the marginalization of Roslin last season was one of the problems of Season 3. I would argue they focused a bit much on secondary characters at times last year. I still enjoyed Season 3 a lot, but I do think it sagged in the middle, though the first five hours were the best thing I've ever seen on TV.
I agree 100% with that. I'd probably throw the 6th episode in there as well.

3.14 and 3.15 could have been airlocked as far as I'm concerned.

As for the Centurions evolving...wasn't that the whole point of Razor? That was the original hybrid that they killed. It seems like the hybrid is the "missing link" as it were between the toasters and skinjobs. Maybe that's why the Centurions seem to be so over-protective of the hybrids. ?

Well, it's McDonnell. :) She's been nominated for two Oscars, and she's pretty well known, compared to most of the rest of the cast.

My point really was just to say that I'm very happy to see the show include Roslin in the major storyline, rather than just have her off on the sidelines occasionally interacting with Adama and no one else, which was what was happening much of last season. For some reason, the writers don't seem to know what to do with that character unless she's got cancer.

I agree 100% with that. I'd probably throw the 6th episode in there as well.

3.14 and 3.15 could have been airlocked as far as I'm concerned.

As for the Centurions evolving...wasn't that the whole point of Razor? That was the original hybrid that they killed. It seems like the hybrid is the "missing link" as it were between the toasters and skinjobs. Maybe that's why the Centurions seem to be so over-protective of the hybrids. ?

Well, obviously. But the question still remains - who was doing the experimenting? Certainly not the centurions.

Well, the writer's of BSG only have themselves to blame. The dip in ratings started during last season's crappy-ass 'filler' episodes, and have never recovered. And this season's over-the-top obsession with "Roslin", isn't helping things either. I remember reading an interview with the creators of the show right after season 2, during it's peak in popularity. One of the guys said something to the effect of, "With the show being so popular, it's up to us to NOT SCREW IT UP." Evedently, they didn't heed their own advice. Now obviously, the weak episodes and weak moments haven't been enough to chase me away. But the same can't be said for the masses.

You could just as easily say the rating have dipped because of the horrible time slots. At the height of its popularity, Sci-Fi chose to put BSG on Sunday night, a certain death sentence. Then for the next season, they put it on Friday night, another death sentence. There appears to be no logical reason behind these decisions.

And I rather enjoyed those "crappy-ass filler episodes". They were entertaining and did a good job exploring many issues that would naturally arise in a displaced society on the edge of destruction. So, please, stop presenting your opinion as objective fact.

(let me guess, this is the part where you whine about people disagreeing with your grand declarations)

Well, obviously. But the question still remains - who was doing the experimenting? Certainly not the centurions.

Why not the Centurions? Clearly they had the reasoning and intellect to do so. Otherwise the skinjobs would not have disabled that ability in the newer ones.

My thought is, the original Centurions, possessed of reasoning and intelligence, rebelled against the humans. In the natural course of war, they decided the best way to infiltrate the colonies was to make Cylons that appeared human-like in every way. Eventually the skinjobs became dominant, somehow disposed of the original Centurions, and created the new ones as foot-soldiers and dumbing them down so that they would not rebel.

Of course I could be completely wrong, but I think it makes some context in what we've seen in the interactions of the skinjobs and current Centurions. It also fits in with the whole cyclical theory, especially if, as some expect, the current Centurions also turn against the skinjobs.

Well, it's McDonnell. :) She's been nominated for two Oscars, and she's pretty well known, compared to most of the rest of the cast.Actually, I'd say that Olmos is more recognizable. McDonnell's had a handful of awards nominations, but never won anything (correction: she won an Obie for some off-broadway stage production). Olmos has been nominated for an Oscar as well (Best Actor for Stand and Deliver) and won an Emmy and two Golden Globes (and nominations for other Emmys and GGs) and a host of more minor awards and nominations (see the awards pages for Mary McDonnell (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001521/awards) and Edward James Olmos (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001579/awards) at IMDb). He also has nearly twice the number of film and television acting credits, as well as several turns as director (including 3 episodes of BSG) and producer.

He also has nearly twice the number of film and television acting credits, as well as several turns as director (including 3 episodes of BSG) and producer.

It's interesting to hear Ron Moore talk about Olmos's directing style in one of his recent podcasts. His goals are a little different than their usual stable of directors. He likes to keep the audience a little more unbalanced, doesn't like to spoon-feed them as much. That sort of fits with his personality, I should think.