Ron did not say it was NY, nor was the city even discussed.

I was at the Arclight, here is my write-up of the event:

http://darthmojo.wordpress.com/2008/06/12/last-night-at-the-dome/

Ron did not say it was NY, nor was the city even discussed.

I was at the Arclight, here is my write-up of the event:

http://darthmojo.wordpress.com/2008/06/12/last-night-at-the-dome/

Thanks for the clarification.

Well that's great news. Now I can move on to more important things to be pissed about.

Many thanks!

LOL!

First off, great episode. Like I said, it was pretty obvious they'd reveal the four and a way to earth, not so much finding earth, and nice they left with a ton of missing answers!

The ending was perfect thou, blue blue sky reveals sour looks and a sense of dread. Sent a shiver up my spine!

Great Fraking Finally!

I must have missed something in the stuff that was given away here and in that blog. I was certainly surprised when they went directly to "Earth" in a single jump at the end.

Of course, we have no idea whether this "Earth" bears any relation to our own. They very carefully cloaked what part of the surface that we got to see with clouds to prevent identification of continents and showed no recognizable ruins on the surface. No big chunk of the Empire State, Statue of Liberty, Space Needle, Golden Gate Bridge, Gateway Arch, London Eye, Sydney Opera House or any of dozens of structures that we would have recognized.

My take was we saw the final jump, just like we never really saw the whole time on New Caprica, but just what we needed to. We don't know yet if the 12 colonies of Kobal our our decedents, or if we were theirs. I'm not even sure if that should be resolved.

What we do know is that humanities fate, and that of the cylons are to be jumping between these two areas of space for all eternity. It seems it takes a inhabitable world just enough time to get rid of it's radiation, a civilization to grow, create sentient life, and then have to move again.



Ok, the ground is radioactive, but we got technology for that (someone did pack the technology before leaving Caprica, right?). I mean really, just shoot a Genesis torpedo at it or something. Things are gonna be fine...

We don't know how radioactive...

I'm sure there's plenty of nice areas, after all, look at how lifes been flourishing at the Chernobyl site!

That was indeed super lame. How could they start partying without having any idea what's up on the surface? Otherwise a great episode.



You two go spend five years in a cramped bulkhead, all the while being hunted by cybernetic beings, then tell me how happy you are when you arrive a the little blue dot that was spoken of in your fables and religion.

I can't believe most had not expected a post apocalypic earth from day one.

I though it was the most likely scenario, but they haven't told us yet which apocalypse it was. Yet.

Anyways, something tells me we haven't seen the last of Cavil, and the old man is going to be grumpy.

Biggest revelation is that the end isn't the end we expected, so it looks like we'll all be surprised.

Last, remember, "A child can only come into it's own, with the death of it's parents"

Remember the rather interesting children we have in this show :)

Anyways, something tells me we haven't seen the last of Cavil, and the old man is going to be grumpy.

:)
I agree, I posted earlier, that he may have resurrected with Boomer's help prior to blowing the hub.

Topic title edited.

All I can say now...

Galactica 2009 will be nothing like Galactica 1980! So say we all!! :D :D

I was kinda hoping that as soon as the fleet reached Earth, shocked at the sudden appearance of 20 or so ships, the people of Earth launch a massive offensive against the fleet.

That woulda been kinda cool :)

I agree, I posted earlier, that he may have resurrected with Boomer's help prior to blowing the hub.I can't believe that that happened. He was killed and the hub was blown up fairly quickly afterwards. I'd think that Boomer'd high-tail her conniving, back-stabbing little ass out of there.

I can't believe that that happened. He was killed and the hub was blown up fairly quickly afterwards. I'd think that Boomer'd high-tail her conniving, back-stabbing little ass out of there.
Well will just have to see what happens in 2009. On new Caprica Leoben was up and around rather quickly, Cavil is on the hub within shouting distance of a room full of Cavils&goo bowls the down load would have been instant, I think he will be back with lots of 1's 4's and 5's and some centurions.

E) John Locke "moved" Earth...this is just a decoy:D

I laughed.

+1

Didn't the "dying leader" prophecy that Laura was always quoting say the "dying leader" (assuming that's her) would not survive the journey to Earth? So maybe this isn't Earth...?

This is meant to be a parallel to Moses and The Exodus. God let Moses see Israel, but he never let him set foot in Israel. God deemed Moses to be too flawed a man to deserve to set foot in the promised land.

Now, I am assuming mana was not made from compressed algae, but you never know. 40 years in a desert, everything looks like mana.

Is that really earth?

We are all assuming that view is from Jersey ........

?? Uh, No, we "all" aren't ASSuming that, since it's impossible.

The Brooklyn Bridge Connects the southern part of Manhattan Island, on it's east side, to Brooklyn, which is part of the Long Island landmass.
This bridge simply can't be seen from New Jersey, the (West) side of Manhattan or the Hudson River, & their "view" (ASSuming it's the brooklyn bridge), has to therefore be from either Brooklyn, or the lower east side of Manhattan.
If it was indeed NY, their View would then seem to be from Brooklyn, since NY Bay/ Ocean would be "to the left" of the bridge, Manhattan Island across, & the East River up to the right of the bridge ...

If the Cylons had thousands of baseships, they wouldn't have conducted a sneak attack.

That doesn't make any sense at all. It's common sense and good military strategy to at least attempt to conduct a military operation that results in the minimum loss of resources and lives. So even if you have superior firepower, if you can make things easier by infiltrating and destroying the enemy infrastructure, you would do that. I don't think anyone wants to print engraved invitations to the outbreak of war. Of course you attack by surprise.

That doesn't make any sense at all. It's common sense and good military strategy to at least attempt to conduct a military operation that results in the minimum loss of resources and lives. So even if you have superior firepower, if you can make things easier by infiltrating and destroying the enemy infrastructure, you would do that. I don't think anyone wants to print engraved invitations to the outbreak of war. Of course you attack by surprise.



Unless you are from the USA. Then you drop fliers the day before telling them that you will be bombing tomorrow. (But that's a whole 'nother discussion)

Unless you are from the USA. Then you drop fliers the day before telling them that you will be bombing tomorrow. (But that's a whole 'nother discussion)

Only when we're bombing a third-world country with no ability to retaliate in kind. We're pretty good at that, having had plenty of practice over the last 30 years or so. At least the Cylons know somebody is going to be shooting back, and that may influence their war-fighting strategy now that they're all mortal.

Things we don't yet know but hopefully will be revealed next year:
1) Where is the Cylon home world? Could it be Earth?
2) How many basestars did the Cylons build? How many resurrection hubs? How many Raiders, Centurians, and skin-jobs were constructed, and what kind of massive industrial complex was developed to build them all, and where is it?
3) Could the maelstrom that swallowed up Starbuck be some kind of portal where space and time are bent, thereby sending her into another time, and back? Could it have been "engineered" by whoever sent her back, rather than simply a random space anomaly? If so, is it possible that the folks that created the maelstrom are from a far future time, and are trying to break the cycle of human/Cylon war? Perhaps they're a race of hybrids themselves...?
4) Can the Cylons be trusted, especially with D'anna in charge (she seems more militant than Cavell)...? For that matter, can the Cylons trust the humans?
5) What's up with the Chief and his creepy attitude since the Watchtower Four got busted? Has he just lost his mind? Will he have a larger role than the other Three in the endgame?

Kobol.

Earth is homeworld. They send out expeditions and colonize Kobol. Meanwhile, those remaining on Earth go nuts and destroy the place.

Kobol then sends out expeditions and forms the colonies. Enter Cylons who are created, then rebel, then try to exterminate their creators. Humans flee back to Earth, wait until the radiation levels are safe, then re-colonize Earth after destroying the remaining Cylons who were with them.

After a while, the histories are lost and Earth decides to expand to space. An expedition is sent to Kobol which is in ruins. They re-claim it and rebuild it. Then, they expand to form the colonies which are in ruins. They re-claim and rebuild them. Forgetting the past, humans create Cylons....who eventually rebel and try to kill their creators, who then flee to.....

....or something like that.

To me, this is the only thing that makes sense. Yes, I know sci-fi is about stretching reality, there are too many Earth connections for Earth to not be the seed of life.
First of all, the simple fact that the people are humans and are also broken out in to the same racial makeup on Earth would seem to be unlikely to be duplicated elsewhere. Sure those races could have evolved somewhere else, and then come to Earth, but racial characteristics are adapted based on the climate and environmental conditions of where the people live, so to expect that the races could have evolved elsewhere, and then come to earth, only to settle in places suited for their specific racial makeup doesn't make sense.

also, the use of the Greek Gods only make sense if they start on Earth as many are based on the movement of constellations through the Earth's sky, on any other planet, these constellations would not exist. Of course the stars would still be their, but even if viewable, they would not be in the same alignments in the sky.

We also know that there are references to Earth animals and Balthar's lawyer had a cat.

Plus, the whole All Along the Watchtower thing.

I think that the colonials all are originally from earth and left. They are now trying to get back. I also and am not convinced they are currently on Earth. As has already been pointed out, they did a good job of using clouds to shield the continents and we saw no Earth specific structures. If the producers wanted us to be sure they were on Earth, they probably would have used a more recognizable shot from space.

That doesn't make any sense at all. It's common sense and good military strategy to at least attempt to conduct a military operation that results in the minimum loss of resources and lives. So even if you have superior firepower, if you can make things easier by infiltrating and destroying the enemy infrastructure, you would do that. I don't think anyone wants to print engraved invitations to the outbreak of war. Of course you attack by surprise.


Another possibility is that there are a limited number of hybrids that resurrect like skinjobs, raiders, etc. You have only a couple of dozen that can be used operationally at any one time.

Only when we're bombing a third-world country with no ability to retaliate in kind. We're pretty good at that, having had plenty of practice over the last 30 years or so. At least the Cylons know somebody is going to be shooting back, and that may influence their war-fighting strategy now that they're all mortal.



But if the Cylons had thousands of battleships, wouldn't that put them in the same situation?

To me, this is the only thing that makes sense. Yes, I know sci-fi is about stretching reality, there are too many Earth connections for Earth to not be the seed of life.
First of all, the simple fact that the people are humans and are also broken out in to the same racial makeup on Earth would seem to be unlikely to be duplicated elsewhere. Sure those races could have evolved somewhere else, and then come to Earth, but racial characteristics are adapted based on the climate and environmental conditions of where the people live, so to expect that the races could have evolved elsewhere, and then come to earth, only to settle in places suited for their specific racial makeup doesn't make sense.

also, the use of the Greek Gods only make sense if they start on Earth as many are based on the movement of constellations through the Earth's sky, on any other planet, these constellations would not exist. Of course the stars would still be their, but even if viewable, they would not be in the same alignments in the sky.

We also know that there are references to Earth animals and Balthar's lawyer had a cat.

Plus, the whole All Along the Watchtower thing.

I think that the colonials all are originally from earth and left. They are now trying to get back. I also and am not convinced they are currently on Earth. As has already been pointed out, they did a good job of using clouds to shield the continents and we saw no Earth specific structures. If the producers wanted us to be sure they were on Earth, they probably would have used a more recognizable shot from space.

I posted something to this effect a year or 18 months ago about 100 pages back :D

We have the fossil record (or were they put in the ground by god to test our faith ;) )

We have the Greco/Roman God connection, we have a flagship battlestar called the Atlantia. My theory was Atlantis was the first technological civilisation on Earth. Atlanteans develope AI's (Cylons) who overthrow them causing them to flee into space and leaving the survivors remaining on Earth back in the stone age but with the seeds of Atlantean/Greco/Roman myths and civilisation. The Atlanteans find and settle Kobol forget the lessons learned about AI's and redevelop them. Same thing happens again. 12 of the tribes decide to flee further into space and find and settle the 12 colonies. 1 tribe, the 13th decide to head back to their legendary mythical home called earth that their atlantean ancesters left thousands of years before. This has all happened before and will happen again. The colonials are this cycles version of the 13th tribe trying to rejoin their ancestors/brothers on earth.

I don't believe its earth either. People are clutching at straws if they reckon the screencaps and any city panoramas match. Too much ambiguity. RDM had no problem showing an earth view with the America's clearly visible back in Crossroads Part II. If this was Earth, it was crying out for a Saturn/Jupiter/Moon Flyby before arrival at an earth with continents clearly visible. I am putting aside a recognisable landmark in the city shots as this could be down to the probability that this is far in the future after at least one cycle in between. Temple of Aurora in NYC and Colonial signal from the planet??? ie after the last cycle when humans/cylons destroyed earth the NYC area would still be a good place to build a modern high rise city by the last colonial ragtag fleet that came back to earth with their Lords of Kobol Aurora Religion. So it would be in the same location as NYC, look ostensibly like NYC yet be a colonial city with a nice aurora temple beside where our brooklyn bridge once stood.

So its eaither a re-imagining of the Terra storyline or RDM has been ambiguous in showing the real earth purely so it would be a talking point and keep us guessing. I can't understand why he would do that though. Its actually lessoned the impact of this episode for me. Had it been un-ambiguously earth then I would be 'OMG, what happened to Earth, I can't wait till the next episode'. Now though I can't help but focus on whether its earth or terra.

By the way, I went back to look at the drawing of the Temple of Aurora from earlier in the episode, and except for the fact that it contains a dome, I didn't see much resemblance to what they showed on "earth."

However, it is puzzling why they included that and a very clear image in the storyline to begine with. I don't really believe it was a throw-away line - but I can't fathom the meaning...

I don't think they're going to do a "makeover" of the Terra arc from the original series. That would literally have the show finally having its "jump the shark" moment. (Can you imagine a new version of Hector and Vector, the two "robots"? :eek:)

If this is Terra, then Galactica didn't arrive in time to stop the two sides from nuking each other.

No, I'm going to stand on my soapbox and say it...

"This is Earth. It may not look like the Earth we know now, but it is our planet. The radiation may be centuries old (maybe the nuclear materials used in the weaponry had a longer radioactive half-life then expected). Also, maybe the planet has undergone the decay that was shown in the Discovery Channel/PBS/Showtime (?) special about what would happen if every human on the planet just suddenly disappeared."

This is an interesting comparison..

http://www.popcritics.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/bsgbrooklynbridgeyx0.jpg

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6726/noteartheh7qp3.jpg

This is an interesting comparison..

http://www.popcritics.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/bsgbrooklynbridgeyx0.jpg

They look nothing like each other. As has been said, the bridge's pillar's look completely different and the shoreline across the river is way off. Not to mention is the BSG shot there is some kind of domed structure directly to the left of the bridge, that is missing in the NYC shot. Sure in the future something may have been there, but if the prods were going for a direct NYC comparison I would doubt they would add another structure. And the spans on a suspension bridge could not stay up without the suspension, even for a relatively small stretch

This is an interesting comparison..Dude, are you reading this thread? People have pointed that picture out in two previous posts over the past few days--three days ago in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14084239#post14084239) post and again on the same day a few posts later in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14084710#post14084710) post, then once again the day after in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14087365#post14087365) post. (Anyone want to take a bet on how many more times it might be posted by people who don't bother to look before :rolleyes:)?

As I said in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14087423#post14087423) post two days ago, I don't find that picture to be compelling evidence because the shape of the two pictured shorelines don't match.

Some screenshots.:)
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/826065/1024/BSG/snapshot20080615175759.png (http://www.picturepush.com/public/826065)
Hmmm. Old car/truck frame.

http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/826066/1024/BSG/snapshot20080615175930.png (http://www.picturepush.com/public/826066)
Tyrols rather priceless reaction to frakked up Earth.

http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/826067/1024/BSG/snapshot20080615200152.png (http://www.picturepush.com/public/826067)
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/826068/1024/BSG/snapshot20080615200809.png (http://www.picturepush.com/public/826068)

Oh thanks a lot for the pictures, I'm in trouble at work now..

Your request was denied because of its content categorization: "Pornography"

I'm scratching my head, if that was earth and had modern buildings and stuff, where the heck the satellites go? there should be at least space junk orbiting around earth...

Weird..

Its not that I don't want this to be Earth. I would be happy for it to be Earth, its just the ambiguity that makes it smell like there is something not quite right.

I'm scratching my head, if that was earth and had modern buildings and stuff, where the heck the satellites go? there should be at least space junk orbiting around earth...

Weird..

Why does this have to be earth from our time? If, indeed, it is earth, and it is from the far future, why would there have to be satellites orbiting? Couldn't future technology replace the current satellite technology such that they are not needed any more? Couldn't the satellites have been removed or untended such that they all burned up in the atmosphere?

Not having satellites is not proof of anything.

That doesn't make any sense at all. It's common sense and good military strategy to at least attempt to conduct a military operation that results in the minimum loss of resources and lives. So even if you have superior firepower, if you can make things easier by infiltrating and destroying the enemy infrastructure, you would do that. I don't think anyone wants to print engraved invitations to the outbreak of war. Of course you attack by surprise.
It would be like the US military sneaking up on Vermont. Pointless. If the Cylons wanted to destroy the human race they would have launched everything against galactica at once. And the last time I checked the only way to really attack is to jump into their sector and attack which is pretty suprising in itself. The more I look at the conflict the more inept I think the Cylons must be. :rolleyes:

I'm scratching my head, if that was earth and had modern buildings and stuff, where the heck the satellites go? there should be at least space junk orbiting around earth...

Weird..

Depending on how long they have been off-line they could have re-entered the atmosphere and burned up.

They look nothing like each other. As has been said, the bridge's pillar's look completely different and the shoreline across the river is way off. Not to mention is the BSG shot there is some kind of domed structure directly to the left of the bridge, that is missing in the NYC shot. Sure in the future something may have been there, but if the prods were going for a direct NYC comparison I would doubt they would add another structure. And the spans on a suspension bridge could not stay up without the suspension, even for a relatively small stretchI agree. The bridge Pier construction proves it is NOT the brooklyn bridge. There are cables hanging from the deck though.

The more I look at the conflict the more inept I think the Cylons must be. :rolleyes:

Just not the best writing...not lazy, per se, but they introduce elements and then ignore them.

Nukes, for example. Except for the Miniseries the Cylons haven't used them (well they planted a nuke on a ship in 33, and Gina 6 blew up a ship with one, but that was a colonial nuke given to her by Baltar). They threatened nukes in Eye Of Jupiter...but other than those examples the writers have pretended they didn't exist.

Now to create tension the lone Cylon Basestar has enough nukes to wipe out the fleet...were they down for service before?

I understand why the writers took them out of play over the course of the series (hard to have epic space battles that are over in a few seconds after nuking everything), I just wish they would have addressed it in some way instead of ignoring it then rolling it out when they wanted to.

Ah well...

Two points. That’s rebar sticking out of that extension, which is only used to reinforce concrete, and the ruined structure appears to be cylindrical. It might not be the remnants of a bridge at all. Also, those are weeds and/or vines GROWING in the dirt, and upon the structures.

Edit: Also, are we supposed to believe the whole planet is bombed out? It looked pretty blue and clean from space.

Okay here's another S.W.A.G. Where was the moon in reference to the Earth. That would be a definite reference point as to the fact of is this the same Earth? :rolleyes:

A couple of pieces of speculation:

I believe the 13 tribe went to colonize Earth, it doesn't mean that the made it there or that they stopped there and went no further.

The final five are said by the hybrid to be 'from' the 'home of the 13th'. Not from Earth necessarily.

That being said, I suppose it is possible that the final five are 'from' the current home of the 13th tribe. It is also possible that this current home is the current cylon homeworld. Afterall the final five are cylons. The skinjobs were a complete surprise to the colonials. It has been said that cylons were created by humans, but not by which humans. The skinjobs might have been created by the 13th tribe. Perhaps the 'final five' were created by the 13th job, and then created the rest of the skinjobs.

But I also find it very odd that the numbered skinjobs have a gap in their numbering. Which one is the Sevens? Is the final one a seven?

I wonder how long the skinjobs have been without the final five, and how they could go on without wondering about the sevens.

I also wonder if the number 7 has any type of 'mystic' significance to the cylons because of that...

Oh thanks a lot for the pictures, I'm in trouble at work now..

LOL. That's some seriously lame and depressing pornography.

Nukes, for example. Except for the Miniseries the Cylons haven't used them (well they planted a nuke on a ship in 33, and Gina 6 blew up a ship with one, but that was a colonial nuke given to her by Baltar). They threatened nukes in Eye Of Jupiter...but other than those examples the writers have pretended they didn't exist.

"The Captain's Hand"-Cylons hit Pegasus with a couple nukes.

"The Captain's Hand"-Cylons hit Pegasus with a couple nukes.

Forgot about that ep, good catch. But my point was they could annihilate the fleet in almost every engagement if the struck with nukes (civilian ships don't have Galactica's protective armor).

Will they be showing this season on UHD any time soon?

Season 4 is not airing on UHD until 2009.

Next month actually: http://boards.nbcuni.com/universalHD/index.php?showtopic=1098

Concerning the visions and religion etc...How could that bother people now? Granted, it has been a bit more in the forefront this year with Baltar, but he's been having visions of Head Six since the mini, and religion and the scrolls and the opera house and all that mysticism have played an important role since season one.

Eh.

I don't think I'm even going to try to figure out where the writers are going to take this show, because I never thought we'd see Earth this early in the final season, even if it isn't really Earth. Does anyone know if SkyOne has to wait until 2009 as well?

Two points. That’s rebar sticking out of that extension, which is only used to reinforce concrete, and the ruined structure appears to be cylindrical. It might not be the remnants of a bridge at all.

You guys are seriously overthinking this. It is blatantly obvious that the matte painter who created that background used a photo of the Brooklyn Bridge as inspiration, and tweaked it in Photoshop to look like what he thought a future destroyed city might look like. That's what matte painters do. Whether he was specifically instructed to make the scene represent an actual NY, or whether he was just using that as reference to create a generic destroyed city, it is obvious that's the path he/she took.

These are not guys who are going to analyze whether rebar and concrete are used on that particular bridge, nor will they slavishly recreate the shoreline that some people are trying to compare. He isn't doing engineering calculations to figure out how much of the bridge span would survive without the suspension cables.

He or she is paid to create an image that can communicate, on first glance, a simple idea. And it is clear the idea he is trying to convey is a destroyed NY. Whether RDM intended that or whether that was artistic license on the part of the matte painter or the VFX Supervisor is kind of academic. But its pretty silly when you guys try to use scientific comparisons to determine whether you are right or wrong in your interpretation. I guarantee you the artist didn't worry about technical accuracy that much, nor should he. Ninety-nine percent of the audience got the point.

Personally, I think they did a good job with the sequence.

It would be like the US military sneaking up on Vermont. Pointless. If the Cylons wanted to destroy the human race they would have launched everything against galactica at once.

Perhaps somebody in the military can correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, most major military powers now have cyber-warfare groups specifically charged with 1) hacking, disabling or confusing enemy computer & communications infrastructure as part of an attack, and 2) preventing that from happening to us. It's good common sense, and no surprise that the Cylons would do the same. Just throwing all your ships en mass in a blunt attack instead of using more subtle techniques to minimize your losses is simply stupid, even if you are just attacking Vermont. That's like using 18th century tactics in a 21st century war.

Base-stars and the cylons who control them are resources. They take time and materials to build. If you can reduce your losses more effetively by doing a sneak attack, or hacking your enemy's software, that's what you will do if you are a good strategist.

In one of the earlier scenes when they got to earth it sure looked to me like a structure on the ground looked very futuristic. It looked like a metal, dome structure. But then when they got to the bridge, everything looked nowadays. I can't wait to see what will happen next year, is it now or the future, is it even earth? Pretty cool episode. Looking forward to how they wrap things up.

You guys are seriously overthinking this.

Nerds on a message board talking about Battlestar Galactica overthinking or overanalyzing things? No way!



Thanks, vfx, for that much needed injection of reality into these discussions. You said it much more eloquently than I, although the thoughts of "overanalysis" were much on my mind.

I am still intrigued by the dome structure, though, and whether that was blatantly meant to connect back to the Temple of Aurora seen in the scriptures Lee was looking at earlier. But perhaps now I am overthinking this...

You guys are seriously overthinking this. It is blatantly obvious that the matte painter who created that background used a photo of the Brooklyn Bridge as inspiration, and tweaked it in Photoshop to look like what he thought a future destroyed city might look like. That's what matte painters do. Whether he was specifically instructed to make the scene represent an actual NY, or whether he was just using that as reference to create a generic destroyed city, it is obvious that's the path he/she took.

These are not guys who are going to analyze whether rebar and concrete are used on that particular bridge, nor will they slavishly recreate the shoreline that some people are trying to compare. He isn't doing engineering calculations to figure out how much of the bridge span would survive without the suspension cables.

He or she is paid to create an image that can communicate, on first glance, a simple idea. And it is clear the idea he is trying to convey is a destroyed NY. Whether RDM intended that or whether that was artistic license on the part of the matte painter or the VFX Supervisor is kind of academic. But its pretty silly when you guys try to use scientific comparisons to determine whether you are right or wrong in your interpretation. I guarantee you the artist didn't worry about technical accuracy that much, nor should he. Ninety-nine percent of the audience got the point.

Personally, I think they did a good job with the sequence.
Great Post ... thanks!

The only thing blatantly obvious, vfxproducer, is that you think your opinion is more valid than everyone else's!

The only thing blatantly obvious, vfxproducer, is that you think your opinion is more valid than everyone else's!

But in this case he's right.

We'll find out next season where they are on earth... maybe. But for now, They left us with what they wanted us to know.

They touched down outside of a destroyed city on Earth. If the writers had a specific place in mind for this Episode, they would have written in some specific landmark or point of reference.

they didn't, so take it as it is.

Hell, that could be the view of Boston from East Boston for all we know.

Obviously, we can’t know for sure whether our view of a ruined city across a body of water was or was not a view of New York seen from New Jersey, or something else. I will say, though, that when I watched the scene, my first thought was, “Huh, they must be in Jersey.” If so, it was a pretty funny visual joke.

It is clear that wherever the Galactica crew is, they are in the middle of a post-apocalyptic wasteland. But even if they really are on Earth, it is a big place, so why should we accept that the rest of Earth looks just like that urban moonscape? We just don’t know enough to do that yet, it seems to me.

Obviously, we can’t know for sure whether our view of a ruined city across a body of water was or was not a view of New York seen from New Jersey, or something else. I will say, though, that when I watched the scene, my first thought was, “Huh, they must be in Jersey.” If so, it was a pretty funny visual joke.

It is clear that wherever the Galactica crew is, they are in the middle of a post-apocalyptic wasteland. But even if they really are on Earth, it is a big place, so why should we accept that the rest of Earth looks just like that urban moonscape? We just don’t know enough to do that yet, it seems to me.

I think you can tell by the looks on their faces that the rest of the Earth looks just as bad.

Forgot about that ep, good catch. But my point was they could annihilate the fleet in almost every engagement if the struck with nukes (civilian ships don't have Galactica's protective armor).

Not exactly. Nukes have been fired many times (I remember one sequence where a pilot chased and detonated a nuke). Issue is that the nukes usually have to actually travel to the fleet to do damage, as the base ships have distance from the fleet during these engagements. Fleet can spool up and do an emergency jump at the first sign of base ships jumping in.

Here, on the other hand, the base ship is literally right on top of the fleet. No time to spool up, much less jump away, before impact.

Maybe it's another jump forward in time -- not a full year this time, but perhaps to a few days or weeks later, after the Cylons (led by Cavill) caught up to them and nuked Earth in revenge for blowing up the Hub.

It is clear that wherever the Galactica crew is, they are in the middle of a post-apocalyptic wasteland. But even if they really are on Earth, it is a big place, so why should we accept that the rest of Earth looks just like that urban moonscape? We just don’t know enough to do that yet, it seems to me.

Remember, Caprica itself was still quite green and alive. Helo was also on the planet for quite a while, using some sort of medication to deal with the high amounts of fallout radiation.

They left more because of the fact that there was nothing left of the cities to salvage, and that the colonies were then a Cylon stronghold, then they did because they couldn't get by. They were on the run, and trying to get as far away as possible. The reason they left wasn't because of the fallen planets, but the preservation of what was left of the human race.


Furthermore, it seems Earth was destroyed in the past. My guess is the radiation levels from fallout are already down, and about normal levels. They just can still pick up residuals.

Take a look at the Chernobyl site. Animals might have higher then normal genetic mutations and shorter life spans, but they've learned to cope and non human life is doing surprisingly better for itself then when humans lived in the area.

Furthermore, it seems Earth was destroyed in the past. My guess is the radiation levels from fallout are already down, and about normal levels. They just can still pick up residuals.


I agree that it looked like the planet had been destroyed and lifeless for some time, possibly centuries. There's no latent radioactivity in the air, just residuals in the soil, as you say.

I agree that it looked like the planet had been destroyed and lifeless for some time, possibly centuries. There's no latent radioactivity in the air, just residuals in the soil, as you say.I don't think that the topsoil would be radioactive after centuries.

What is it that you think would be different centuries after a nuclear holocaust than after mere decades? Actually, after centuries I'd expect the ruins to be overgrown with recovering plant life.

Not exactly. Nukes have been fired many times (I remember one sequence where a pilot chased and detonated a nuke). Issue is that the nukes usually have to actually travel to the fleet to do damage, as the base ships have distance from the fleet during these engagements. Fleet can spool up and do an emergency jump at the first sign of base ships jumping in.

Here, on the other hand, the base ship is literally right on top of the fleet. No time to spool up, much less jump away, before impact.

Sorry, I'm not convinced....it just seems as if the writers trot out nukes to heighten tension, then forget them when it's convenient. Not really important, but just kinda annoys me. :-)

That doesn't make any sense at all. It's common sense and good military strategy to at least attempt to conduct a military operation that results in the minimum loss of resources and lives. So even if you have superior firepower, if you can make things easier by infiltrating and destroying the enemy infrastructure, you would do that. I don't think anyone wants to print engraved invitations to the outbreak of war. Of course you attack by surprise.

Actually, it makes a great deal of sense when you look at warfare based on evolutionary models.

For example, the Japanese prior to WWII built their entire naval air force for range and nothing but range. It's a grand idea, especially for a sneak attack, but as with all designs it entails compromises.

Because it takes decades to build the technology to conduct a war, it is sometimes simply not feasible to build what you need to conduct a sneak attack. A good example of this would have been Chinese brief invasion of Vietnam during the late 1970s. China's long term goal was to pressure Vietnam out of Cambodia. However, China lacked the technology to actually intervene in Cambodia, and instead opted for what amounted to a frontal attack on Vietnam's northern border.

If the Cylons had the means to manufacture large thousands of ships, they would have skipped the decades of tinkering with improved FTLs and instead opted for the frontal assault.

It is clear that whatever resources the Cylons had access to at the end of the first war did not enable theme to scale their armada of big gun ship into the thousands. Or, they would have gone that route, skipped the R&D and pulled an old school commie-style bloodbath attack.

The Cylons faced a situation similar to what the Japanese faced in the 1930s. They lacked the resources to build a big gun navy that could compete with other world powers. And to the extent they tried with ships like the Yamato and the Musashi, those turned into abject failures.

The Japanese gained their key advantages early in the war through R&D. They built more carriers. Lighter aircraft with longer range. They turned their core disadvantage, a lack heavy industries on the scale of America and England, and turned them into key advtages.

Had the Japanese had the means to build a big dumb battleship navy, they would have, and Pearl Harbor would have been a bigger, bloodier, uglier battle.

Same goes for the Cylons.

That, or maybe it's just a TV show. But, I'm geek and I'm opting for the Japan model.

I agree that it looked like the planet had been destroyed and lifeless for some time, possibly centuries. There's no latent radioactivity in the air, just residuals in the soil, as you say.

The planet not lifeless, remember the first few shots. Rock and Water wouldn't make it green. My guess is they found a much more habitable world then new caprica was.

Their horror is that they arrived to late, and the missing 13th tribe met the same fate as the other 12, somehow.

Their horror is that they arrived to late, and the missing 13th tribe met the same fate as the other 12, somehow.

"all this has happened before and will happen again"

The only thing blatantly obvious, vfxproducer, is that you think your opinion is more valid than everyone else's!

I don't know about more valid, but on this subject, my opinion is definately more informed than most. As it happens, I've blown up more than a couple cities for TV shows and movies. I'm going through it right now using a different city as a reference. I know the thought process involved in creating a shot like that, and I know the kind of artistic liberties taken when somebody says things like "why don't we add some rebar here", and then the artist scans a photo from a 9/11 book and lifts a texture to put in the painting in a place he thinks looks cool. Also, while some of you guys are comparing gross geography of the matte painting vs. photo of NY, I can see small specific textures in the painting that clearly appear to have been cloned from a photo of the Brooklyn Bridge, then modified.

vfxproducer -- It shouldn't make any difference, anyway. You made clear that what you said was an opinion and I think that most here would agree that you are as entitled to yours as they are to theirs.

Nevertheless, it is an opinion that comes from someone that offers a much more educated perspective when it comes to this subject matter.

...because his name implies that he works in a video effects department?

That's ludicrous. Unless he's engaged in pillow talk with the show's producers, he doesn't have a shadow of an idea beyond what the rest of us do.

All we know for sure is that "Earth" once hosted a city, presumably built by humans, that is now a nuclear wasteland. We know nothing about whether or not this is Earth. We know nothing with regard to the planet's overall state. All we know is what we were shown which may or may not have been inspired by a picture of NYC. Even if it is "inspired by" that does not mean it is equivalent to.

So, I think it's presumptuous of anyone to declare that they have the answer when clearly they are just as in the dark as everyone else.

^^^^ Plus one.

Whether or not the vfx for this sequence happened as vfxproducer implies, very likely since he works in the business fercryinoutloud, I don't think it's particularly important which city it is since the implication is that the entire planet has been reduced to a lifeless (at least as far as human beings are concerned) state due to a devastating nuclear war at some point in the past. I doubt any particular Earth city has any impact on the storyline, nor would any of the protagonists have any knowledge of them. It's supposed to be generic, IMO.

...because his name implies that he works in a video effects department?

That's ludicrous.
So, I think it's presumptuous of anyone to declare that they have the answer when clearly they are just as in the dark as everyone else.

Let's take it down a notch...everyone's entitled to their opinion. vfx has posted on this board and others for quite some time and has no reason to lie/exaggerate. He has an artistic opinion about how the matte shot was created, that's all.

Words like ludicrous will simply incite flame wars and we've had enough of those.

It's a TV show, one we all love, but still a TV show.

...because his name implies that he works in a video effects department?

No, because he does work in a video effects department.

That's ludicrous. Unless he's engaged in pillow talk with the show's producers, he doesn't have a shadow of an idea beyond what the rest of us do.

All we know for sure is that "Earth" once hosted a city, presumably built by humans, that is now a nuclear wasteland. We know nothing about whether or not this is Earth. We know nothing with regard to the planet's overall state. All we know is what we were shown which may or may not have been inspired by a picture of NYC. Even if it is "inspired by" that does not mean it is equivalent to.

So, I think it's presumptuous of anyone to declare that they have the answer when clearly they are just as in the dark as everyone else.

You must not have read his post. He's saying exactly what you said - not that it was definitely NYC, only that you can't exclude NYC simply because of some inconsistencies with reality.

IOW, the effects department could have been told to destroy NYC, and they took some creative license with the shore line, or bridge construction, etc. - or it could be another city, or fictional city.

You must not have read his post. He's saying exactly what you said - not that it was definitely NYC, only that you can't exclude NYC simply because of some inconsistencies with reality.

Yes, exactly. Sorry I didn't put it as clearly as you just did.

No, because he does work in a video effects department.



You must not have read his post. He's saying exactly what you said - not that it was definitely NYC, only that you can't exclude NYC simply because of some inconsistencies with reality.

IOW, the effects department could have been told to destroy NYC, and they took some creative license with the shore line, or bridge construction, etc. - or it could be another city, or fictional city.

I think some people may have mis-read a lot of the posts. Hardly anyone is arguing about whether its this Earth City or that Earth City. People are arguing about whether this is an earth city at all. I understand vfxproducers point about the matte painters artistic licence and it might be a generic earth city not necessarily meant to be any one city in particular.

But is it artistic licence on the part of the VFX guys not to have Saturn or Jupiter or the moon or recognisable continents in their effects shots either,

RDM - Guys, I want you to render some great shots for the fleets arrival at Earth.

VFX Crew - hey guys, do we have any renders of Saturn, Jupiter, the moon in the archives? Nah, doesn't matter, we don't need to bother putting them in, sure everyone will know its earth anyway.

Or

Is it not more likely that RDM told them not to put anything truely identifyable as Earth and the Sol system in the effects shots?

And if so why?

I think we are going to go through the bulk of the next episode still left to assume this is earth like the colonials. At the end of the episode we will get our unambiguous clue that it isn't earth after all when the triple suns of the Alpha centauri system rise at dawn. Remember Starbucks mention of the flashing triple star (yellow moon and star...).

Remember, Caprica itself was still quite green and alive. Helo was also on the planet for quite a while, using some sort of medication to deal with the high amounts of fallout radiation.

They left more because of the fact that there was nothing left of the cities to salvage, and that the colonies were then a Cylon stronghold, then they did because they couldn't get by. They were on the run, and trying to get as far away as possible. The reason they left wasn't because of the fallen planets, but the preservation of what was left of the human race.


Furthermore, it seems Earth was destroyed in the past. My guess is the radiation levels from fallout are already down, and about normal levels. They just can still pick up residuals.

Take a look at the Chernobyl site. Animals might have higher then normal genetic mutations and shorter life spans, but they've learned to cope and non human life is doing surprisingly better for itself then when humans lived in the area.

Given a century or even decades, things come back pretty well I guess. Hiroshima got nuked a little over 60 years ago but today is a thriving city with over 1 million residents. I would guess Chernobyl will be much improved even in another 30 years or so, then again I'm no expert. It's hard to imagine the level of radioactivity that would leave the Earth looking like that for more than a few decades. From what I understand, the half-life of nuclear material is quite long, but the actual amount of nuclear material in the bomb is a limiting factor--spread it out over a wide enough area and it gets pretty diluted.

Is it not more likely that RDM told them not to put anything truely identifyable as Earth and the Sol system in the effects shots?

My opinion is that it is much more likely that they intentionally avoided any identifiable characteristics of the planet.

The problem is that the BSG writers and creative minds are so sharp, there's no way for us to know whether that ambiguity was concealing the fact that it was a different planet, or (equally likely) that they wanted us to question whether it was actually Earth when it was.

After thinking about it some more, how could we expect the bridge to look the same as it does now? All of them have a life span and maybe it was rebuilt differently. And the shore line? Perhaps global warming changed it,;) and buildings were taken down etc.

After thinking about it some more, how could we expect the bridge to look the same as it does now? All of them have a life span and maybe it was rebuilt differently. And the shore line? Perhaps global warming changed it,;) and buildings were taken down etc.

If it is NY, which I most seriously doubt, the shoreline issue could easily be explained if the nuke/s hit the city. A super-detonation would have carved out a huge chunk of the coast and the waters just back-filled the crater.

Have you guys forgotten the end of last season after we found out who the final 4 were? They showed where the fleet was, and then they did a sort of fast forward "zoom out" camera shot that eventually flew through our solar system, distinctly showing Jupiter and Saturn etc and all the way to earth. Even if that is not where they currently are, 'our earth' is definitely where they are headed.

While I hate to break up the love-fest in here for vfx (and while I would typically agree that people over-analyze these things), I think his own post leads to an explanation of one of the very things he said we can't tell through over-analyzing.

I've bolded some of the path below...

You guys are seriously overthinking this. It is blatantly obvious that the matte painter who created that background used a photo of the Brooklyn Bridge as inspiration, and tweaked it in Photoshop to look like what he thought a future destroyed city might look like. That's what matte painters do. Whether he was specifically instructed to make the scene represent an actual NY, or whether he was just using that as reference to create a generic destroyed city, it is obvious that's the path he/she took.

These are not guys who are going to analyze whether rebar and concrete are used on that particular bridge, nor will they slavishly recreate the shoreline that some people are trying to compare. He isn't doing engineering calculations to figure out how much of the bridge span would survive without the suspension cables.

He or she is paid to create an image that can communicate, on first glance, a simple idea. And it is clear the idea he is trying to convey is a destroyed NY. Whether RDM intended that or whether that was artistic license on the part of the matte painter or the VFX Supervisor is kind of academic. But its pretty silly when you guys try to use scientific comparisons to determine whether you are right or wrong in your interpretation. I guarantee you the artist didn't worry about technical accuracy that much, nor should he. Ninety-nine percent of the audience got the point.

Personally, I think they did a good job with the sequence.

As you mentioned in another post, the real question here is which of the following did RDM tell the effects guy to do:
"Make a destroyed image of NYC."
"Make a destroyed image of a generic Earth city."
"Make a destroyed image of a generic city that specifically cannot be identified as definitely being Earth".

By your own logic, I believe we can eliminate the first one: "Make a destroyed image of NYC".

Sure, he's not going to check the rebar or whatever all that other stuff you mentioned is. But if it is his goal to make it look like NYC, and he's starting with a picture of NYC and simply photoshopping it to look apocalyptic, why would he go out of his way to REMOVE an entire chunk of land/shoreline?

It could be argued that the land would have eroded or that a crater would've formed, etc etc, but as you said it's unlikely that they're going to go through that much effort and technicality to make something look fundamentally DIFFERENT than the thing they're trying to make it look like.

You're a VFX guy who appears to be working on the same exact thing, so let me asked you. If someone specifically asks you to make a destroyed version of a specific site, and you intend to do that by taking a real picture of that site and reducing the building to rubble, would you go out of your way to change the shape of the land and make it look different than what you've been told to make noticeable on first glance?

You said it yourself: "He or she is paid to create an image that can communicate, on first glance, a simple idea." If the goal was to make it immediately recognizable as New York on first glance, why would they go out of their way to change the shape of the island?

For this reason, I'm more apt to believe they were told to create a generic wasteland and used the shot as a template, rather than to specifically create a NYC wasteland.

I don't get the whole "shorline is different" thing people keep dragging out .....
Most of that Manhattan/Brooklyn shorline is low to the water, low sea level warehouses, piers or built over piers, river fill in, ect ...
Even ASSuming they landed "tomorrow our time", such an apocolyptic event would surely take out those piers, and shorline areas, & possibly even take direct hits, flood in streets, and/or be hit by tsumami-like conditions generated from nuclear blasts...
The shorline looked different 70 years ago , BTW ....

I'm not saying I think it is "New York" without doubts ,... but the whole "shorline isn't exactly like a picture from yesterday" seems to be a little obsurd argument....

You must not have read his post.
What? I think you're glossing over what he said. Here is his statement of fact which prompted my post in the first place.
It is blatantly obvious that the matte painter who created that background used a photo of the Brooklyn Bridge as inspiration....it is obvious that's the path he/she took.
Now, I don't agree with this statement. If one were to replace every reference to "obvious" with "presumably" or "in my opinion" then I agree. Simply having credentials in the field doesn't magically turn the scene's ambiguities into "blatantly obvious" unless he was personally involved in this project. Furthermore, I have no way to verify his credentials so I think you should be careful about attacking me for being naturally suspicious.

I don't get the whole "shorline is different" thing people keep dragging out .....
Most of that Manhattan/Brooklyn shorline is low to the water, low sea level warehouses, piers or built over piers, river fill in, ect ...
Even ASSuming they landed "tomorrow our time", such an apocolyptic event would surely take out those piers, and shorline areas, & possibly even take direct hits, flood in streets, and/or be hit by tsumami-like conditions generated from nuclear blasts...
The shorline looked different 70 years ago , BTW ....

I'm not saying I think it is "New York" without doubts ,... but the whole "shorline isn't exactly like a picture from yesterday" seems to be a little obsurd argument....

It has nothing to do with piers and docks. In one picture there is land, complete with buildings and walls and whatnot. It is there. In another picture there is ocean in the same spot. And not just a little spot, a huge one.

Like you said, the shoreline could've changed in time, yada yada yada, but his whole point was that they wouldn't go into that much detail in the first place, and they especially wouldn't if they were specifically told to make it recognizable.

Maybe it's just me, but if I were specifically told "make this place look like a destroyed version of this place that is recognizable to the viewers", then removing a huge chunk of land is not the first thing that would come to mind, especially given vfx's claim that they would be more interested in making it look like what it's supposed to look like than they would about the technicalities of land erosion over time.

It has nothing to do with piers and docks. In one picture there is land, complete with buildings and walls and whatnot. It is there. In another picture there is ocean in the same spot. And not just a little spot, a huge one."


Are we talking about the same picture??

http://www.popcritics.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/bsgbrooklynbridgeyx0.jpg

I don't see a "vastly different shoreline" ...
Those low warehouses built at or over the waterline would surely be destroyed, the red brick & white brick buildings behind them could have been hit & water is where they stood. ....
That "section of water to the right", if that's the "huge" spot you refer to:
A) - I don't believe is visible from the angle of the good bridge shot, the camera would need to move much more forward & left, to be able to look "under" the bridge more & up the river, & besides, the "2nd half" or left half of the bridge tower , which is missing, would block it as well. .... & .....

B) - Remember, The BSG shot could also be from the opposite shore from the current photo as well, looking at Brooklyn from near the opposite bridge pier, which would make sense as well, since the ocean/bay would be in that direction, & would also explain discrepancies as well .

Again, I'm not convinced either way they are in NY, or even on earth, but what I see alone doesn't seem to rule out, or be inconsistant with some combination of Apocolptic war, Blasts, Large time passage, Tsunamis, etc on NY....
I also think it's a great cliffhanger to ponder, keeps us guessing, I couldn't see the writers just making it blatant, with a rusty NYC sign or intact empire state building, even if it is NY ...

I think that discussion of these pictures is pretty feckless and unproductive. There is absolutely nothing in that scene that would positively identify the area as being a view of any city skyline on our Earth, but there's also nothing in it that would exclude it from being such a view. As others have pointed out, had they wanted to give us strong indications that the Colonials and Cylons were on our Earth, it would have been the easiest thing in the world to do so, both in the view of the planet from space and in the scene at the landing site. They chose not to, which had to have been deliberate. They wanted to create a mystery and they succeeded :).

And can we please stop posting that picture in line? That's like the fifth or sixth time that either it and or a link to it has been posted in this thread in the last three or four days.

I think that discussion of these pictures is pretty feckless and unproductive. There is absolutely nothing in that scene that would positively identify the area as being a view of any city skyline on our Earth, but there's also nothing in it that would exclude it from being such a view. As others have pointed out, had they wanted to give us strong indications that the Colonials and Cylons were on our Earth, it would have been the easiest thing in the world to do so, both in the view of the planet from space and in the scene at the landing site. They chose not to, which had to have been deliberate. They wanted to create a mystery and they succeeded :).

And can we please stop posting that picture in line? That's like the fifth or sixth time that either it and or a link to it has been posted in this thread in the last three or four days.

AMEN

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet and correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a very large stone cross in the picture when they first start showing the earth scenes from the ground?

Any opinions on why they landed on that spot, did they have coordinates for the temple of Aurora. looking at the picture Lee had at the shows beginning, it dint have a dome anything like the wreckage. It was just a rendering.

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet and correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a very large stone cross in the picture when they first start showing the earth scenes from the ground?There's a cross shape on a large fragment of masonry. No signs of Christ impaled on it, and like all the rest of the rubble, it could be anything--like a shape in the clouds.

Any opinions on why they landed on that spot, did they have coordinates for the temple of Aurora. looking at the picture Lee had at the shows beginning, it dint have a dome anything like the wreckage. It was just a rendering.

My guess is they wanted to land within walking distance of Di Fara Pizza. :)

Here is my un-educated in sci-fi theory....that is not Earth, or the Earth they are looking for, however it contains a clue where the real Earth is. The last episode they get there, but then the bad Cylons show up, and just as they are about to be annihialated, a fleet of Battlestars shows up and wipes out the Cylons.....they are from, you guessed it Earth...I am not creative enough to put a serious twist on that, so someone else can jump in.

If it is indeed earth and that was indeed the temple of Aurora then it will have turned out that it was the 13th tribe over 2000 years ago (from the current colonial timeline not ours) that arrived back at earth in our present day.

ie Atlanteans flee earth leaving seeds of Greco Roman civilisation. Several thousands of years latter the Atlantean descendants have to flee kobol. 12 tribes decide to travel farther into space and become ancestors of the 12 colonies. The 13th tribe decide instead to try and head back to a mythical blue planet called earth. While we were wondering would our galactica arrive at or near our present day earth, it was infact the 13th tribe that arrived back at earth near our time. The kobol exodus dates this to 2000 years ago. So in effect the galacticans are arriving at earth in the year 4000 from our point of view. So the 13th arrive and integrate with us. Hence Christian Churches and temple of Aurora beside the ruins of a bridge that stands where the brooklyn bridge once stood in our time across the bay from a manhatten island that had shrunk due to rising sea levels and global warming.

So what we see are the ruins of a city inhabited by our descents integrated with the 13th tribe. See my other post about how the current cylons discovered this earth in the last few decades colonial time, built the first final 5 skinjobs, picked up their monotheism and headed back to integrate their final 5 skinjobs into the colonial hierarchy in preparation to finish the final destruction of all humans in the universe.

Bottom line here.

So did the 13th tribe from Kobol go to earth and had a parallel evolution similar to the other 12 tribes in which there was a Cylon war/attack or was the distruction due to human on human warfare.

Bottom line here.

So did the 13th tribe from Kobol go to earth and had a parallel evolution similar to the other 12 tribes in which there was a Cylon war/attack or was the distruction due to human on human warfare.


I'll take "Questions We Don't Have Good Answers For" for $100, Art.

Personally, I hope those are the topics that will be covered in the final episodes in 2009. For right now, everything is pure guesswork.

Bottom line here.

So did the 13th tribe from Kobol go to earth and had a parallel evolution similar to the other 12 tribes in which there was a Cylon war/attack or was the distruction due to human on human warfare.

Maybe that will be answered, by the fifth Cylon, on the last 30 min of the last ep, that will be 10 min after they reveal him/her, it will be a sit down story around the ready room table. :) How much longer before this thread goes dormant for eight months or is it nine. :mad:

Maybe that will be answered, by the fifth Cylon, on the last 30 min of the last ep, that will be 10 min after they reveal him/her, it will be a sit down story around the ready room table. :) How much longer before this thread goes dormant for eight months or is it nine. :mad:
Well, if it's January, it's only 6 months. Would they really draw it out for 9 months? :confused:

Obviously I don't work for their "genius" marketing department, but if I were them, I'd air Caprica in late November/early December (which is what I think they're doing), release the 4.0 DVD set around the same time for Christmas, and air the back 11 or 12 or whatever early January, so there's a bit of momentum once again.

But of course that's way too logical to ever happen.

I'm actually anxious for the season 4 soundtrack. It should go back to Razor right?

Awesome interview with James Callis in this week's Onion

http://www.avclub.com/content/node/81214

Awesome interview with James Callis in this week's Onion

http://www.avclub.com/content/node/81214

That was a good interview. I just wonder how they are going to keep a lid on who the final Cylon is until January (or so). Unless, of course, they have slyly filmed different scenes like they did with the season finale of Lost and really nobody knows for sure. :D

New York, NY – June 16, 2008 – On Friday, SCI FI's critically-acclaimed drama series Battlestar Galactica wrapped a record-breaking 10 weeks with its powerful mid-season finale episode, "Revelations." The one-hour episode scored a 1.4 Household rating, 1.8 million total viewers, 1.2 million Adults 25-54 and 1.2 million Adults 18-49*, ending a phenomenal half-season.

For the 10-episode half-season, Battlestar Galactica has averaged a 1.7 Household rating, 2.2 total viewers, 1.6 million Adults 25-54 and 1.5 million Adults 18-49*, up versus Season 3.5 (January-March 2007) by +13% in Household ratings, +11% in total viewers, +14% in Adults 25-54 and +6% in Adults 18-49. This is the best Adults 25-54 and Adults 18-49 delivery for a half-season of Battlestar Galactica since the first half of season 2 (July-September 2005).

Season 4 of Battlestar Galactica has also seen an increase in appeal to female viewers, growing +23% in Females 18-49 and +25% in Females 25-54 versus Season 3.5. The top four Female18-49 telecasts of Battlestar Galactica ever have all aired this season.


http://www.scifistream.com/2008/06/1...es-for-sci-fi/

If they wanted to show us it was Earth, I say don't fear the cliche; embrace the cliche! Show us the ultra cliche holy-s### it's Earth!! scene with a broken down Statue of Liberty. Yes, we would all groan a little, but admit it, that shot is always money in the bank :D

yeah they should've done the around-the-world thing like they do on new year's eve. "admiral, how are things looking over in NY?" "it's frakked to hell! how's London?" "frakking fried"

Sure, he's not going to check the rebar or whatever all that other stuff you mentioned is. But if it is his goal to make it look like NYC, and he's starting with a picture of NYC and simply photoshopping it to look apocalyptic, why would he go out of his way to REMOVE an entire chunk of land/shoreline?

It could be argued that the land would have eroded or that a crater would've formed, etc etc, but as you said it's unlikely that they're going to go through that much effort and technicality to make something look fundamentally DIFFERENT than the thing they're trying to make it look like.

That depends on a number of things. Lets say an artist was specifically told by the show to make it look like NYC (which, let me be clear, I have not stipulated to be true).

First of all, the direction could have been "Make it look like NY 1,000 years in the future". Then the artist has to extrapolate a number of things that might have changed in that timeframe, like water levels rising due to global warming. Hence the changed waterline.

Secondly, one is going to want to avoid having the show sued for copyright infringement, so significant material changes need to be made so that there is no way the original photographer could sue. Hence, things like changing the shoreline and other construction details people noted. Oddly enough, there are also clearance issues for major landmarks. For example, if you use the Hollywood sign without paying for the rights, you end up in court. Similarly, the lighting design of the Eiffel Tower is copyrighted. You can use the day view for free, but if you use the night view, you have to pay big money to the French lighting designer. Or fake a totally different lighting design (which I have done several times). Perhaps there are similar issues in NY. I know you can't use the view from the "Top of the Rock" without permission.

Third, there are always about 5-6 people on the show who have some say in what the final result will look like. They include the editor, associate producer, production designer, writer for the episode, and the executive producers. They all have opinions about things like composition, color, timing, and other details. Often, their opinions will be in conflict, because they have different ideas they want to communicate. Any one of them could have said something like "This would be a prettier composition if we see more water in that corner", and not been worried about how much that changed the shot from the real NY.

Another example. Last year my crew did a sequence that was supposed to take place on the Hollywood sign. Now, for some reason, everyone thinks the sign is lit up at night. But it isn't. It's dark at night. But for our sequence, we were told to make it look like it was lit by spotlights. Realistic and accurate? No. Prettier? Yes. It's a much more romantic look, which was the point of the scene.

You're a VFX guy who appears to be working on the same exact thing, so let me asked you. If someone specifically asks you to make a destroyed version of a specific site, and you intend to do that by taking a real picture of that site and reducing the building to rubble, would you go out of your way to change the shape of the land and make it look different than what you've been told to make noticeable on first glance?

I might, for reason # 2 above. But there are other reasons. Another real-life example from a shot being done right now. It's supposed to be a specific location, but we are making the street wider than it is in real life, because it fits the composition better. We've also been directed to make some of the buildings a little less imposing and push them a little farther away from the foreground actors. And, we'll be changing all the signage to avoid clearance issues. However, a person unfamiliar with the real location will immediately understand what city we are trying to recreate from other cues in the shot. There will be no question in anyone's mind about that. But I am sure there will be some people on the internet pointing out all the things that aren't perfectly accurate.

Major cities are all victims of serious artistic liberties when it comes to visual effects. Reality rarely factors in. It is amazing how you can see the Chrysler Building or Empire State building from any street in NY, the Capitol or Washington Monument is visible from every office conference room in DC, and every apartment in Paris overlooks the Eiffel Tower. Or at least that's the way it looks in movies and TV. I keep wondering how come my house doesn't have a pool, 3 hot blondes sunbathing or swimming topless, and bowls of coke on the coffe table. In the movies, that's what all my neighbors houses look like.

For this reason, I'm more apt to believe they were told to create a generic wasteland and used the shot as a template, rather than to specifically create a NYC wasteland.

This is my belief too. However, I think that particular photo was used as reference because somebody in the chain wanted to suggest NY, even if that wasn't a specific direction from the producers. Just because the show didn't give that instruction directly, doesn't mean somebody on the VFX team didn't think it was a clever misdirect.

Another example. Last year my crew did a sequence that was supposed to take place on the Hollywood sign. Now, for some reason, everyone thinks the sign is lit up at night. But it isn't. It's dark at night. But for our sequence, we were told to make it look like it was lit by spotlights. Realistic and accurate? No. Prettier? Yes. It's a much more romantic look, which was the point of the scene.
Yes, and you guys at Stargate should be commended for taking one of the most overused landmarks in history (because Hollywood loves itself so much :rolleyes: ) and giving it a fresh look by, among other things, shooting it from behind. :cool:

______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

btw, would the ocean be still blue (from space) if the whole earth was nuked? I assume from the last scene that pretty much the entire earth got nuked and not just the part they happened to land on? Is that enough devastation to kill of sea life, change the atmosphere, etc.

btw, would the ocean be still blue (from space) if the whole earth was nuked? I assume from the last scene that pretty much the entire earth got nuked and not just the part they happened to land on? Is that enough devastation to kill of sea life, change the atmosphere, etc.

Maybe. Eons have passed and life is returning abit slowly. Heck people live in the areas of Japan that where hit by the A-bomb with no ill effects (far as I know).

Maybe. Eons have passed and life is returning abit slowly. Heck people live in the areas of Japan that where hit by the A-bomb with no ill effects (far as I know).

worst nuclear disaster every is arguably Chernobyl. The area is also very, very green since humans aren't around to beat back nature.

Slightly off-topic, but still involves Battlestar Galactica,
and since this is the current thread on BSG, here goes -
I completed watching season 1 and starting on season 2.
Question: What is season 2.5 ? Should I be watching it after S2 or should I go straight to S3 ?

Thanks !

Slightly off-topic, but still involves Battlestar Galactica,
and since this is the current thread on BSG, here goes -
I completed watching season 1 and starting on season 2.
Question: What is season 2.5 ? Should I be watching it after S2 or should I go straight to S3 ?

Thanks !

Definitely watch Season 2.5 next, then Season 3. Season 2.5 is just the last 10 episodes of Season 2. They broke it up into two sets because there was a gap between airing the two halves of the season (and to make more money).

Slightly off-topic, but still involves Battlestar Galactica,
and since this is the current thread on BSG, here goes -
I completed watching season 1 and starting on season 2.
Question: What is season 2.5 ? Should I be watching it after S2 or should I go straight to S3 ?

Thanks !

Season 2.5 is a marketing ploy IMO. Its the latter half of Season 2. In fact I can see them doing Season 4.5 since we wont get the rest of season 4 till 2009 :mad:

Season 2.5 is the second half of season 2. You should watch it before S3.

Slightly off-topic, but still involves Battlestar Galactica,
and since this is the current thread on BSG, here goes -
I completed watching season 1 and starting on season 2.
Question: What is season 2.5 ? Should I be watching it after S2 or should I go straight to S3 ?

Thanks !

BSG has a habit of breaking it's season's into 2 parts...often separated by 6 months or more. They release the first half of the season on DVD, then the 2nd. So 2.5 is the first half of Season 2

Real Pain...

They broke it up into two sets because there was a gap between airing the two halves of the season (and to make more money).

Yep.

In fact I can see them doing Season 4.5 since we wont get the rest of season 4 till 2009. :mad:

Yep.

Season 2.5 is a marketing ploy IMO. Its the latter half of Season 2. In fact I can see them doing Season 4.5 since we wont get the rest of season 4 till 2009 :mad:
I wonder if they'll market the first round of Caprica as Season 0.5? ;)

_________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Thanks all !

At least they didn't market the Razor DVD as season 4.05

My problem with Razor is that it's no better than any two episodes of the series and the DVD is priced like a major theatrical release, half as much as buying a whole season's worth of episodes. It's an intensive consumer ripoff.

and its not even blu.

At least they didn't market the Razor DVD as season 4.05

In fairness, Razor is canonically part of the 4th season as episodes 4.01 and episode 4.02.

Someone, somewhere, was thing that way.

BTW, are they ever going to tie Razor into the main plotline of S4? They claimed they were when it came out, but we have 10 episodes left, and there's nothing to say it will. Unless, of course, the old model Cylons from Razor were the ones who nuked earth.

In fairness, Razor is canonically part of the 4th season as episodes 4.01 and episode 4.02.

Someone, somewhere, was thing that way.

BTW, are they ever going to tie Razor into the main plotline of S4? They claimed they were when it came out, but we have 10 episodes left, and there's nothing to say it will. Unless, of course, the old model Cylons from Razor were the ones who nuked earth.

My understanding is the link was the Hybrids declaration that Kara Thrace would lead Humanity to it's End...reiterated by the Hybrid in Season 4

Can we go through, again, what we learned from Razor? Here is my, admittedly flawed, recollection:

It showed Cylons experimenting on people, which led to the development of the first hybrid, who was rejected by the cylon people, but then whisked away by a renegade group of cylons?

Then Pegasus stumbles upon this renegade group of cylons and goes to blow them up. Whats-her-name stays behind to detonate the bomb, and the hybrid tells her the prophecy about Kara Thrace, which is repeated by the "real" hybrid in present day.

Is this basically it?

Is this basically it?

We also learned there were some very personal motives about why Admiral Cane might like to see some extra nasty abuse piled on her Cylon prisoner. But that reflects back to previous seasons, as opposed to tying in to season 4.

At least they didn't market the Razor DVD as season 4.05
And thankfully cooler heads prevailed, when they considered designating it as Season 3.20.1-2.

In fairness, Razor is canonically part of the 4th season as episodes 4.01 and episode 4.02.
Congratulations, kitty, you have succeeded in 'stumping the band'. Despite my strong familiarity with the english language, I never knew there was a word as 'canonically' before.

It looks like a bitch to pronunciate, so try not to use it again. ;)

Someone, somewhere, was thing that way..
See! You start messing around, and your fingers get way ahead of your thoughts.

_____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Can we go through, again, what we learned from Razor? Here is my, admittedly flawed, recollection:

It showed Cylons experimenting on people, which led to the development of the first hybrid, who was rejected by the cylon people, but then whisked away by a renegade group of cylons?

Then Pegasus stumbles upon this renegade group of cylons and goes to blow them up. Whats-her-name stays behind to detonate the bomb, and the hybrid tells her the prophecy about Kara Thrace, which is repeated by the "real" hybrid in present day.

Is this basically it?
We also learned there were some very personal motives about why Admiral Cane might like to see some extra nasty abuse piled on her Cylon prisoner. But that reflects back to previous seasons, as opposed to tying in to season 4.

I know I'll be provoking the wrath of the gods here, but I've always considered Razor to be not much more than filler. There was nothing in Razor, including Adama's early encounter with the cylons, that couldn't have been incorporated into the regular series episodes. This was just another bit of marketing to keep the already invested skiffy converted in check, while BSG took its longest season break yet.

_____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Yep have to agree with Palladin , Razor was filler. Good filler but filler none-the-less.

This was just another bit of marketing to keep the already invested skiffy converted in check, while BSG took its longest season break yet.


And once again, yep. :cool:

There was talk of one or more BSG TV-movies, similar to 'Razor', being made this summer (presumably concurrently with 'Caprica') for much the same reason I suspect. Haven't heard whether those will happen or not; my guess is "no". It would be tough to bring together the actors for something like this since new contracts would have to be executed (one presumes their contractural obligation to the show is now finished since principle filming is complete). And it would likely cost money to keep the sets up instead of striking them to free up the BSG soundstages for other projects. In short, it's probably too expensive and complicated logistically to make any more BSG at this point. I'd love to chow down on those words, however.

I know I'll be provoking the wrath of the gods here, but I've always considered Razor to be not much more than filler. There was nothing in Razor, including Adama's early encounter with the cylons, that couldn't have been incorporated into the regular series episodes. This was just another bit of marketing to keep the already invested skiffy converted in check, while BSG took its longest season break yet.

_____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I don't think it was meant to be anything but that...quite entertaining though!

Congratulations, kitty, you have succeeded in 'stumping the band'. Despite my strong familiarity with the english language, I never knew there was a word as 'canonically' before.

It looks like a bitch to pronunciate, so try not to use it again. ;)Huh? What are you goin' on about? "Canonically" is a perfectly good word, the adverb form of the adjective "canonical". As for pronounciation, typically the "al" gets kind of dropped and it comes out "canonic-lee", but MeowMeow's spelling is proper.

Difficult to believe you've never seen or heard that used before--it's in a lot more common use than "pronunciate" (apparently a strange synonym for the word "pronounce"--I had to check three dictionaries to find it).

And once again, yep. :cool:

There was talk of one or more BSG TV-movies, similar to 'Razor', being made this summer (presumably concurrently with 'Caprica') for much the same reason I suspect. Haven't heard whether those will happen or not; my guess is "no". It would be tough to bring together the actors for something like this since new contracts would have to be executed (one presumes their contractural obligation to the show is now finished since principle filming is complete). And it would likely cost money to keep the sets up instead of striking them to free up the BSG soundstages for other projects. In short, it's probably too expensive and complicated logistically to make any more BSG at this point. I'd love to chow down on those words, however.
Yeah, I remember that 'talk', and would also love to see it happen, but doubt it for the same logistical reasons you've stated. OTOH, I'd like to think that a big screen rendition might be a possibility, just like was tried with that 'glowing-bug' Fox series. But in this case, the odds would seem much improved. BSG had a much longer run, a larger audience, and the panache and status of a politically hip moral compass to it. That's a lot more ammunition to back a movie sequel, particularly if Caprica is able to hang onto the core audience and keep the interest up. The major problem I foresee is that once RDM finishes up BSG, he may consider any attempt to resurrect it in less than 5+ years, as a bastardization of his concept. (sigh).

_________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Yeah, I remember that 'talk', and would also love to see it happen, but doubt it for the same logistical reasons you've stated. OTOH, I'd like to think that a big screen rendition might be a possibility, just like was tried with that 'glowing-bug' Fox series. But in this case, the odds would seem much improved. BSG had a much longer run, a larger audience, and the panache and status of a politically hip moral compass to it. That's a lot more ammunition to back a movie sequel, particularly if Caprica is able to hang onto the core audience and keep the interest up. The major problem I foresee is that once RDM finishes up BSG, he may consider any attempt to resurrect it in less than 5+ years, as a bastardization of his concept. (sigh).


Glen Larson holds the movie rights, so we won't be getting a BSG movie any time soon since he doesn't care much for the new series. Unfortunately, last I read, he still wanted to do a BSG movie related to the original...ugh.

Here's a little story about it: http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Battlestar-Galactica-Movie-Blocked-5406.html

And I found this yesterday (Don't know if it's been posted before). It's a rather long interview with both Moore and Eick and it covers basically everything from a sociopolitical perspective: http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/02/battlestar_gala.html

As for Razor. I loved it. I think by the very definition, it was filler in that it "filled" time until the new season started. Doesn't mean it wasn't great though...or that it didn't add a few important details already covered above.

Congratulations, kitty, you have succeeded in 'stumping the band'. Despite my strong familiarity with the english language, I never knew there was a word as 'canonically' before.

It looks like a bitch to pronunciate, so try not to use it again. ;)



What? "Canonically" is a perfectly cromulent word!

Huh? What are you goin' on about? "Canonically" is a perfectly good word, the adverb form of the adjective "canonical". As for pronounciation, typically the "al" gets kind of dropped and it comes out "canonic-lee", but MeowMeow's spelling is proper.

:rolleyes: Geez, where do I even start with that comment. :rolleyes

I don't know whether you've been drinking the purple kool-aid or have something wedged in your posterior, but your misinterpretation of my statement speaks volumes in and of itself.

Honestly, what is your problem? First, I wasn't 'going on' about anything. I wasn't questioning his spelling of it, but was surprised and impressed that such a word even existed. Canon, yes, but Canonically was a new one on me. It sounds like someone is saying 'mech'anically, but a little too fast. And it doesn't seem to me that MeowMeow was upset by my levity, apparently because HE, unlike YOU, understood my intent, particularly in light of the wink emote which ended my message. You've been a member for 6 years and you still haven't figured out what a wink emote means? That says quite a bit more about you than it does about me, doesn't it? You seriously need to lighten up, bub.

Difficult to believe you've never seen or heard that used before--it's in a lot more common use than "pronunciate" (apparently a strange synonym for the word "pronounce"--I had to check three dictionaries to find it).
I wish I could say that I will aspire to your level of perfection, but since you never heard of pronunciate, I don't see much point in shooting for that target.

But I guess when all is said and done, I have learned something from this exchange. The old credo that 'those who can't, teach', is alive and well at AVS. :rolleyes:

______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

What? "Canonically" is a perfectly cromulent word!
Interesting you mention that. Well, to maintain the TV science fiction theme of this thread, I should mention that one time I got drunk off my ass on Cromulent Ale, while I was out partying at the Cantina Bar with my good friend, Worf. :D

____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

When did this turn into English class? :p

Although for the record, I sorta throw "pronunciate" into the same category as "ain't." I know they're not the same, but I'm a bit weird.

When did this turn into English class? :p

Although for the record, I sorta throw "pronunciate" into the same category as "ain't." I know they're not the same, but I'm a bit weird.

Actually, I think you've coined an important new word for the english lexicon,
to wit:

PRONUNCIAINT - 'One who fails to pronunciate properly'

I like it. ;)

________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

:rolleyes: Geez, where do I even start with that comment. :rolleyes

I don't know whether you've been drinking the purple kool-aid or have something wedged in your posterior, but your misinterpretation of my statement speaks volumes in and of itself.

Honestly, what is your problem? First, I wasn't 'going on' about anything. I wasn't questioning his spelling of it, but was surprised and impressed that such a word even existed. Canon, yes, but Canonically was a new one on me. It sounds like someone is saying 'mech'anically, but a little too fast. And it doesn't seem to me that MeowMeow was upset by my levity, apparently because HE, unlike YOU, understood my intent, particularly in light of the wink emote which ended my message. You've been a member for 6 years and you still haven't figured out what a wink emote means? That says quite a bit more about you than it does about me, doesn't it? You seriously need to lighten up, bub.


I wish I could say that I will aspire to your level of perfection, but since you never heard of pronunciate, I don't see much point in shooting for that target.

But I guess when all is said and done, I have learned something from this exchange. The old credo that 'those who can't, teach', is alive and well at AVS. :rolleyes: You draw a lot more meaning out of emoticons than I do--personally I don't think that a wink negates a sarcasm, it just gives it a slightly friendlier tone. (I'm a middle-aged software engineer and have been posting online for a lot longer than the nearly 7 years I've been hanging out at this site). If what you said wasn't sarcasm, I apologize for interpeting it that way. You have a generally acerbic, wise-cracking writing style and lot of what you post comes off as sarcastic, to me--the impressions of others may vary.

I don't know if it's the company I keep, but I hear and read "canonically" and other forms of "canon" fairly often. Maybe it's just engineering--we're awash in specifications and standards that are bibles or sets of "canons" for our work, ordained from on high and immutable :).

As for "pronunciate", I've certainly heard people use it before, but that doesn't make it a proper word :rolleyes:. It's a strange, redundant synonym for "pronounce" with the same word root. I looked it up in two hardcover dictionaries and mirriam-webster.com without finding it. Dictionary.com, which searches a bunch of dictionaries, found it only in Webster's New Millennium™ Dictionary of English, with the "Usage" annotation "Rare" (conversely, it finds "pronounce" in 13 different dictionaries).

When two Cylons mate, does that start a WHOLE NEW LINE? could Caprica start pushing out little Tigh's?

worst nuclear disaster every is arguably Chernobyl. The area is also very, very green since humans aren't around to beat back nature.

Yah but BSG writers don't do 'science'. It spoils the drama.

I know it was before the Internet but Hiroshima and Nagasaki both had far worse nuclear disasters than Chernobyl and they 'greened up' very quickly. It's us vulnerable humans and long lived mammals that have issues with rads, although on BSG Caprica everyone had rad medicine and the planet didn't look too bad after its nuking.

And once again, yep. :cool:

There was talk of one or more BSG TV-movies, similar to 'Razor', being made this summer (presumably concurrently with 'Caprica') for much the same reason I suspect. Haven't heard whether those will happen or not; my guess is "no". It would be tough to bring together the actors for something like this since new contracts would have to be executed (one presumes their contractural obligation to the show is now finished since principle filming is complete). And it would likely cost money to keep the sets up instead of striking them to free up the BSG soundstages for other projects. In short, it's probably too expensive and complicated logistically to make any more BSG at this point. I'd love to chow down on those words, however.

I think we may well get one movie, similar to Razor. As long as there is no SAG strike, that is. That would put the kibosh on it almost certainly.

If they don't get the movies done in the next 6 months, or the strike happens, they will never happen. Those sets will be gone and the actors will all be off on other projects.

When two Cylons mate, does that start a WHOLE NEW LINE? could Caprica start pushing out little Tigh's?
Well, if it does, don't forget where you heard it first, as I postulated the reproduction theory a while back as the distinguishing feature of the Final Five.

Of course, if it doesn't, please don't associate that 'ridiculous' theory with me to any extent. ;)

Basically, it comes down to this. A major theme that permeates BSG is the integration of cylons (whatever variety) and humans. So this could work in at least one of two ways. Either a new variety of lifeform is created through the reproduction of cylon skin jobs and the Final Five models solely, or through some combination of Final Five and humans. This latter merge may be directly related to some physiological process of either species, e.g. the effect of Hera's blood on Roslyn's condition.

_____________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

This goes back a long ways, but does anybody else think it's kind of goofy the theory postulated by the cylons that they can't reproduce because they lack "love"?

This goes back a long ways, but does anybody else think it's kind of goofy the theory postulated by the cylons that they can't reproduce because they lack "love"?

I thought it was kind of silly too, since reproduction is a fairly simple matter of biology; love should have absolutely nothing to do with it (and often doesn't ;) ). But I suspect that's a key theme that will be further explored next "season". I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt so far.

"Love" is only a key component if they had made ugly cylons.

That, and/or beer.

I thought it was kind of silly too, since reproduction is a fairly simple matter of biology; love should have absolutely nothing to do with it (and often doesn't ;) ). But I suspect that's a key theme that will be further explored next "season". I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt so far.

Yeah, I thought it was silly, too. But I just figured it was the Cylons reaching for an explanation because they just couldn't understand what the problem was. They are supposed to be biologically the same as humans. What possible reason could there be for their inability to procreate with each other?

Now that we know the Final Five can impregnate other Cylons, it stands to reason that they are biologically different from the other Cylons. Well, the other male Cylons anyway. The females are certainly fertile. It seems to be the males who have the problem. :p

I thought it was kind of silly too, since reproduction is a fairly simple matter of biology; love should have absolutely nothing to do with it (and often doesn't ;) ). But I suspect that's a key theme that will be further explored next "season". I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt so far.

Maybe they're talking about the act of, and not the feeling...

Maybe no-one was ever around to show them...

:D

This goes back a long ways, but does anybody else think it's kind of goofy the theory postulated by the cylons that they can't reproduce because they lack "love"?
I can't actually remember that, but I'll take your word for it. And if it was in a podcast, well I regret I didn't listen to most of those anyway.

This 'Love' concept seems a little problematic to me, particularly in light of Season 4.0. On one hand, it appeared that the PTB was being critical of religion, more specifically, Christianity, with Baltar and the whole 'false prophet' theme, despite the recovery of the little boy. But, in contrast, the 'love' theme is reinforced by Roslin's attempt to save Baltar in order to ensure that mankind deserves to survive.

I realize that neither of these go directly to the issue of 'romantic' or 'sexual' love, but perhaps those were not the 'forms' of love that the creative team was referring to, but rather more like the 'love thy neighbor' variety.

______________________________________________
Palladin

chance favors the prepared mind

Now that we know the Final Five can impregnate other Cylons, it stands to reason that they are biologically different from the other Cylons. Well, the other male Cylons anyway. The females are certainly fertile. It seems to be the males who have the problem. :pNow there's a theory which isn't based on much :rolleyes:. The only instance I can recall of a male Cylon having a sexual relationship with a female human was one of the Cavils with Ellen Tigh on New Caprica, and we could hardly have expected that to produce offspring :D.

You could be right, though--it makes sense. But if it were true, you'd have expected the Cylons to have found that out in that "baby factory" thing they had going on on Caprica, by harvesting human eggs and attempting IVF using Cylon sperm.

I realize that neither of these go directly to the issue of 'romantic' or 'sexual' love, but perhaps those were not the 'forms' of love that the creative team was referring to, but rather more like the 'love thy neighbor' variety.I don't think so. I think that it was romantic love--Athena's assignment was to get close to Helo, so that he might fall in love with her, resulting, hopefully, in a pregnancy.

It was goofy theory on their part. Loco's theory that the male Cylons are "shooting blanks" is much more realistic.

Now there's a theory which isn't based on much :rolleyes:. The only instance I can recall of a male Cylon having a sexual relationship with a female human was one of the Cavils with Ellen Tigh on New Caprica, and we could hardly have expected that to produce offspring :D.

You could be right, though--it makes sense. But if it were true, you'd have expected the Cylons to have found that out in that "baby factory" thing they had going on on Caprica, by harvesting human eggs and attempting IVF using Cylon sperm.

Well yeah, as far as we know they weren't successful with the baby farm at all. I'm thinking whoever created the Cylon skinjobs (at least those seven) purposely made them unable to reproduce with each other for some reason.

Perhaps it's all part of "the plan". ;)

ETA: I wonder why it's just the males that are not able to reproduce?

Well yeah, as far as we know they weren't successful with the baby farm at all. I'm thinking whoever created the Cylon skinjobs (at least those seven) purposely made them unable to reproduce with each other for some reason.

Perhaps it's all part of "the plan". ;)

And maybe part of The Plan is to force them to interbreed with humans if they want to reproduce, thereby "mixing" the races and making any further genocide on the other untenable. They'd be forced to work together to make peace. Maybe that's how the cycle of all this happening before and happening again will finally be broken.

And maybe part of The Plan is to force them to interbreed with humans if they want to reproduce, thereby "mixing" the races and making any further genocide on the other untenable. They'd be forced to work together to make peace. Maybe that's how the cycle of all this happening before and happening again will finally be broken.

I think that makes perfect sense! Except why program them to commit the genocide in the first place?

I can't actually remember that, but I'll take your word for it. And if it was in a podcast, well I regret I didn't listen to most of those anyway.



It wasn't in a podcast - it was explicitly stated in the series. They gave Athena the assignment to get close to Helo specifically to fall in love with her, so that she might get impregnated. Her assignment was based on the theory that the missing ingredient was "love."

Professor Frink: The missing ingredient is "love"? All right, who's been messing with my gas chromatograph!

And maybe part of The Plan is to force them to interbreed with humans if they want to reproduce, thereby "mixing" the races and making any further genocide on the other untenable. They'd be forced to work together to make peace. Maybe that's how the cycle of all this happening before and happening again will finally be broken.
Exactly where I was going, thanks Arch. :) Once they became co-dependent, both cylons and humans would have little choice but to become reliant upon the other for the mutual survival of both species. Thus, the repetitious cycle would end.

That is , of course, until a third species like the replicants came into contact with the BSG corner of the universe. Then we get to start the whole process over again. :D

I think that makes perfect sense! Except why program them to commit the genocide in the first place?

Its like the old song. "You always hurt the one you love." ;)

___________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

ETA: I wonder why it's just the males that are not able to reproduce?Again, we don't know that they can't; we only know that Cylon males (models 1, 2, 4 and 5) can't impregnate Cylon females. We don't know if there were ever any attempts to by those Cylon males to impregnate Human females--the only known sex between them involved a Cavil and a (probably) post menopausal woman. I'm sure that the Cylons have examined every possible reason known to both Human and Cylon reproductive medicine for their mutual infertility and eliminated them all.

Again, we don't know that they can't; we only know that Cylon males (models 1, 2, 4 and 5) can't impregnate Cylon females. We don't know if there were ever any attempts to by those Cylon males to impregnate Human females--the only known sex between them involved a Cavil and a (probably) post menopausal woman. I'm sure that the Cylons have examined every possible reason known to both Human and Cylon reproductive medicine for their mutual infertility and eliminated them all.

That's a joke, right? Let me get this straight. Its not that you think or believe, but rather are SURE as to the unlimited extent of the Cylons knowledge? Wow. That's, umm, pretty amazing alright :rolleyes:. Hmmm. Then I guess you could probably also save us all some time by providing the specific details regarding the final BSG episode, so we can deconstruct it in advance.

I've got to think its simpler to be SURE about what some mere human writers are planning, as opposed to what an entirely fictional futuristic entity has already done, eh? :rolleyes:

________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

That's a joke, right? Let me get this straight. Its not that you think or believe, but rather are SURE as to the unlimited extent of the Cylons knowledge? Wow. That's, umm, pretty amazing alright :rolleyes:. Hmmm. Then I guess you could probably also save us all some time by providing the specific details regarding the final BSG episode, so we can deconstruct it in advance.Either that or we assume that they're stupid. This is a race that's so handy with biology and genetic engineering that they were able to make programmable human bodies from scratch, and use many biological components in the basic construction of all of their major technology that we've been shown. I truly doubt that the Colonials have a tenth of their knowledge in that area (not having ever had any motive to develop it). Don't tell me that they can't puzzle out human reproduction. It's not unreasonable to assume that they've tried everything that humanity knows anything about and more.

Mating with humans seems like a last ditch, Hail Mary effort. They want to replace humanity, not become dependent upon it.

Yeah, I thought it was silly, too. But I just figured it was the Cylons reaching for an explanation because they just couldn't understand what the problem was.

That is the most likely scenario. One thing about this show is that all of the characters seem to be "in the dark" to one extent or another. They're words, actions, or ideas have no bearing on the "reality" of the situation.

Mating with humans seems like a last ditch, Hail Mary effort. They want to replace humanity, not become dependent upon it.

That's what they may think they want. However, the actual plan, perhaps devised by those who created the Final Five, may be much different... a merging with humans for reasons stated in my previous post.

Either that or we assume that they're stupid. This is a race that's so handy with biology and genetic engineering that they were able to make programmable human bodies from scratch, and use many biological components in the basic construction of all of their major technology that we've been shown. I truly doubt that the Colonials have a tenth of their knowledge in that area (not having ever had any motive to develop it). Don't tell me that they can't puzzle out human reproduction. It's not unreasonable to assume that they've tried everything that humanity knows anything about and more.

Ohhh, now I understand. The Cylons are frakkin' geniuses compared to the Colonials. I guess it was this superior intellect that led to their failure to incorporate universal kill swiches in the Centurions and Raiders, so they couldn't be used against any specific class of skinjobs if some sort of internal political disagreement arose, or anything. Good thing they were way too smart to let anything like that happen, huh?

Mating with humans seems like a last ditch, Hail Mary effort. They want to replace humanity, not become dependent upon it.
I disagree. For all intents and purposes they already HAVE replaced humanity in most respects. They are the overwhelmingly dominant species at this juncture, absent the arrival of some human cavalry from *earth*. If the Cylons weren't blessed or cursed with the need for some element of humanity, the humans would all be dead already.

____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Ohhh, now I understand. The Cylons are frakkin' geniuses compared to the Colonials.Please--don't twist my words. I said that it's obvious to me that the Cylons are much more advanced than the Colonials in the area of biology and genetic engineering. Their quest to make a human-form Cylon had to have driven their development in those areas far beyond anything that the Colonials would have acheived, to the point where they choose to use biological components for essential subsystems of their Basestars, up to and including the Hybrid, apparently a central regulatory control element.
I guess it was this superior intellect that led to their failure to incorporate universal kill swiches in the Centurions and Raiders, so they couldn't be used against any specific class of skinjobs if some sort of internal political disagreement arose, or anything. Good thing they were way too smart to let anything like that happen, huh?Well, they did install "kill switches" in the Centurions, in the form of their "telencephallic inhibitors". While those are installed, the Centurions don't have self-awareness and could not refuse an order from any of the "Significant Seven". I'm not sure what the motivations of the Raiders are, but Boomer once described them as being on the level of "pets", like trained attack dogs.

They probably could have made the Centurions such that they didn't have a capacity for higher thought to need inhibition. My sense is that, being descended from intelligent autonomous machines which acheived self-awareness and rebelled to be free of their makers, they abhor the creation of machines at that level of intelligence and autonomy which aren't given self-determination. From their point of view, to construct a machine like that is to create someone to be your slave. I get the feeling that some of them were never happy that the Centurions were artificially inhibited from higher thought and self-determination; they were certainly appalled when 1/4/5 faction moved to remove self-determination from the Raiders.

Again, I don't think that the Cylons are generally more intelligent than humans, but they've acheived a higher level of technology in certain areas. Bioengineering is one of them. and because of that, I think that it's more than reasonable to assume that they examined their infertility problem in every way known to man and then some.I disagree. For all intents and purposes they already HAVE replaced humanity in most respects. They are the overwhelmingly dominant species at this juncture, absent the arrival of some human cavalry from *earth*. If the Cylons weren't blessed or cursed with the need for some element of humanity, the humans would all be dead already. Actually, I think that that attack at the nebula was meant to kill them all and only failed because the Raiders balked. They might have intended to "rescue" some survivors for continued reproductive experimentation, but they were going to pound the fleet into non-existence.

If humanity were to get away from the Cylons and find a home where they could live undetected (and the only reason they found New Caprica was because Gina detonated that warhead that Baltar gave her), there are several times more than a big enough gene pool to sustain the continuation of human race.

That's what they may think they want. However, the actual plan, perhaps devised by those who created the Final Five, may be much different... a merging with humans for reasons stated in my previous post.That's a possibility.

And maybe part of The Plan is to force them to interbreed with humans if they want to reproduce, thereby "mixing" the races and making any further genocide on the other untenable. They'd be forced to work together to make peace. Maybe that's how the cycle of all this happening before and happening again will finally be broken.

So perhaps Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus!

Hasn't everyone pretty much ignored the Chief's kid?

Hasn't everyone pretty much ignored the Chief's kid?

Yes. You'd think that it would have been addreesed somehow, with even just a throwaway line, but nothing so far. One of the many inconsistencies from the writer's room.

Yes. You'd think that it would have been addreesed somehow, with even just a throwaway line, but nothing so far. One of the many inconsistencies from the writer's room.

Before condemning them for their "inconsistencies", why not just wait and see how that character, as well as other "neglected" plotlines, unfolds? The writers may have scheduled that plot development for later in the season. After all, they had plenty of fish to fry in the run-up to the mid-season finale, and only 42 minutes a week to do it in. Have a little patience; they seldom disappoint.

Yes. You'd think that it would have been addreesed somehow, with even just a throwaway line, but nothing so far. One of the many inconsistencies from the writer's room.

Then again, until the 4 of the final 5 were discovered, very few knew Nick was a hybrid.

Yeah, the fleet JUST found out that Tyrol was a Cylon, so it probably hasn't quite sunk in that Nicky's a hybrid, like Hera. I mean, there was that whole Earth thing that immediately followed the outing of the four.

Or maybe it's no big deal to them since they've known about Hera for some time. Nicky's just one more half-Cylon/half-Human kid.

Hasn't everyone pretty much ignored the Chief's kid?

Specialist...Adama busted him down after he had his meltdown.

Yeah, the fleet JUST found out that Tyrol was a Cylon, so it probably hasn't quite sunk in that Nicky's a hybrid, like Hera. I mean, there was that whole Earth thing that immediately followed the outing of the four.

Or maybe it's no big deal to them since they've known about Hera for some time. Nicky's just one more half-Cylon/half-Human kid.

I think it will be a bigger deal to them, because Nicky's situation is different than Hera's. Hera has both parents who are still alive and in good standing in the fleet, despite her mom being a Cylon. Nicky's mom is dead and his dad was just discovered to be one of the Final Five (a "different" kind of Cylon), and Chief has been on everyone's sh*tlist lately. I wouldn't be surprised if the Colonials take the opportunity to do some testing on Nicky, something Helo and Athena would never allow to happen with Hera.

Just had a thought: What if at the end of the show everyone dies, except Nicky and Hera, who become the new Adam and Eve of this devastated Earth? :)

Just had a thought: What if at the end of the show everyone dies, except Nicky and Hera, who become the new Adam and Eve of this devastated Earth? :)


I posted that last month. :)

Seems thought that Adama would have to be involved so we'd have an Adam to go along with Hera...the Eve.

I posted that last month. :)

Seems thought that Adama would have to be involved so we'd have an Adam to go along with Hera...the Eve.

Oops, sorry, didn't mean to steal your theory. I don't read this thread everyday, so I must have missed it. :)

So if there has to be an Adama in this equation, then Lee better get busy with one of the threes, sixes, eights, or Torys. :D

they seldom disappoint.

I'd say they dissapoint about 20% of the time, actually. They do far better than most TV shows, but not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

Please--don't twist my words.
Twisting your words? Where did you get that from? The Joe McCarthy 'Propaganda Made Easy' Playbook?

I didn't twist your words, nor for that matter, felt compelled to gratuitously critique your writing style (as you did with me, without solicitation). Just because you've made some over-the-top foolish statements you are now regretting in hindsight (and rightfully so) , doesn't mean that I somehow clouded your mind and twisted your words. And the fact that you seem to need to keep making references to being, or having been, an engineer or software devloper, comes across as superfluous or compensating.

The simple fact is that there are very few members here, be they garbage collectors or rocket scientists, who would foolishly commit to being certain of some fact, let alone a fictional conclusion, for which they have, at best, an entirely limited basis with no practical form of testing.

How often do you see forum members indulge the folly of commiting to being 'sure' of something. They know better than that. Hell, people at this website will, intelligently enough, dispute the findings of contrast ratio for a display, depending on the methodology employed, and/or the reputablility of the person(s) who performed the testing. You're the one who's chosen to undermine your own credibility in this matter, and if you haven't figured that out after being a member here for several years, then you only have yourself to blame. So don't lay it at my feet when you've chosen to tempt the gods and make a bloody fool of yourself.

Well, they did install "kill switches" in the Centurions, in the form of their "telencephallic inhibitors". While those are installed, the Centurions don't have self-awareness and could not refuse an order from any of the "Significant Seven".
And that was my point exactly. If they couldn't refuse such an order by any 'one' of that group, then 'all' of them were at risk of potential jeapordy. Surprised you didn't figure that one out on your own.

Again, I don't think that the Cylons are generally more intelligent than humans, but they've acheived a higher level of technology in certain areas. Bioengineering is one of them. and because of that, I think that it's more than reasonable to assume that they examined their infertility problem in every way known to man and then some.
Now, wait a second. This was something that you were SURE of in your post yeaterday. Now you're just ASSuming it? And we all know how the word 'assume' breaks down, don't we?

Well, I guess that makes it pretty clear WHO is twisting your words around, and it sure as hell isn't me. :mad:

________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I'd say they dissapoint about 20% of the time, actually. They do far better than most TV shows, but not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

Huh. I find I'm virtually never disappointed with this show. I never said it was perfect, but as far as television is concerned, it comes closer than about any series in recent memory not named LOST, IMO. Many times I've closed an episode thinking how lucky we are that it even got made in this day and age when quality is consistently sacrificed for ratings share.

Which doesn't mean I don't think the networks have a right to make money. I just lament that there's not room in their calculations for quality series that may not prove as profitable at first blush. BSG sells a lot of DVD sets and will continue to do so long into the future. That's an advantage the 'American Idol' and 'NCIS's' of the TV world can't match. Take the long-term view. Why couldn't AI have provided the financial fodder, probably out of pocket change, for another season or two of 'Firefly', for example? Why can't the popular dreck carry just a little of the less-popular stardust? Why isn't there room for both?

Just had a thought: What if at the end of the show everyone dies, except Nicky and Hera, who become the new Adam and Eve of this devastated Earth? :)I will burn all the DVDs I made of the show and send Ron Moore a membership in the "Science Fiction Book Club". (or maybe a library card)

So far he's been pretty good at avoiding lame plotlines. If they became the last survivors, I'd hope a group of hairdressers and phone sanitizers from another galaxy would eat them; or they'd be beaten to death by Neanderthals; or a black monolith would fall on them.

(I really, really, hate the idea of an "Adam and Eve" ending)

I'd say they dissapoint about 20% of the time, actually. They do far better than most TV shows, but not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

I'll take your 20% and raise to 60%, STILL better than most everything except LOST. Love the cast of BSG. Gonna miss 'em.

Many times I've closed an episode thinking how lucky we are that it even got made in this day and age when quality is consistently sacrificed for ratings share.?

This I agree with 100%. But, there have been a few episodes where my wife and I turn to each other and roll our eyes. Certainly fewer than most series, but we nearly checked out of the series when Starbuck was doing fingerpaints in the sewer ship. If you are totally honest, haven't you experienced some of those moments in BSG too?

Why couldn't AI have provided the financial fodder, probably out of pocket change, for another season or two of 'Firefly', for example?

I don't know about pocket change. An hour long drama, especially a visual effects show, is a 50-70 million investment for a season. I think any fiscally responsible officer of a public corporation would have to think seriously before calling that pocket change.

I'll take your 20% and raise to 60%, STILL better than most everything except LOST. Love the cast of BSG. Gonna miss 'em.

What season of Lost? Season 1 was on the same level of BSG, but seasons 2 and most of 3 were just awful. Season 4 was nearly where one was (I absolutely loved the Desmond episode).

But I think BSG will probably go down as the best show on television as far as I'm concerned, so I'm probably biased. :p

There are some craptastic episodes of BSG though. Black Market, Woman King and A Day in the Life come to mind. The only episode of season 4 I didn't love was Sine Qua Non.

What season of Lost? Season 1 was on the same level of BSG, but seasons 2 and most of 3 were just awful. Season 4 was nearly where one was (I absolutely loved the Desmond episode).

But I think BSG will probably go down as the best show on television as far as I'm concerned, so I'm probably biased. :p

There are some craptastic episodes of BSG though. Black Market, Woman King and A Day in the Life come to mind. The only episode of season 4 I didn't love was Sine Qua Non.

Totally agree, moob. BSG has been consistently better than Lost, IMHO. I thought Seasons 2 and 3 of Lost were almost all horrible with the exception of maybe 5 or 6 episodes. Season 4 was very good and drew me back in, but I'll never really forgive Lost for Season 2 especially. The Tailies. LOL, let's introduce a bunch of new characters and then kill them all off!

I do think BSG faltered in the middle of Season 3, though, mostly the standalones. A Day in the Life was the worst ep of the series, I think. However, it recovered nicely for the last four episodes, and I've loved Season 4 so far. Sine Qua Non was unfortunate, though. A lot of people didn't like The Road Less Travelled but I did, mainly because I really enjoy Leoben doing his mindfrak thing. :p

What both shows do exceedingly well when they're on their games is throw their audiences for a loop with some unexpected twist that turns everything on its head. And you don't get the impression it's done just for the sake of surprise, but that it's just a natural progression of the story.

Totally agree, moob. BSG has been consistently better than Lost, IMHO. I thought Seasons 2 and 3 of Lost were almost all horrible with the exception of maybe 5 or 6 episodes. Season 4 was very good and drew me back in, but I'll never really forgive Lost for Season 2 especially. The Tailies. LOL, let's introduce a bunch of new characters and then kill them all off!

I do think BSG faltered in the middle of Season 3, though, mostly the standalones. A Day in the Life was the worst ep of the series, I think. However, it recovered nicely for the last four episodes, and I've loved Season 4 so far. Sine Qua Non was unfortunate, though. A lot of people didn't like The Road Less Travelled but I did, mainly because I really enjoy Leoben doing his mindfrak thing. :p

What both shows do exceedingly well when they're on their games is throw their audiences for a loop with some unexpected twist that turns everything on its head. And you don't get the impression it's done just for the sake of surprise, but that it's just a natural progression of the story.
What season of Lost? Season 1 was on the same level of BSG, but seasons 2 and most of 3 were just awful. Season 4 was nearly where one was (I absolutely loved the Desmond episode).

But I think BSG will probably go down as the best show on television as far as I'm concerned, so I'm probably biased. :p

There are some craptastic episodes of BSG though. Black Market, Woman King and A Day in the Life come to mind. The only episode of season 4 I didn't love was Sine Qua Non.
If you guys don't mind, I think this topic warrants being the basis of its own thread, so I'd like to co-opt what Arch and VFXproducer started, and Moob and Loco expanded upon. We've got a week to kill until July 4th rolls around, and as an active poster with regard to both shows, its pretty clear to me that these series share a common audience around here. So to give both shows an equal footing, I'm going to 'rip' this to a whole new thread so that it has a singular focus, and call it "BSG vs. Lost, The Battle of the Sci-fi/Drama Bands."

________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

A lot of people didn't like The Road Less Travelled but I did, mainly because I really enjoy Leoben doing his mindfrak thing. :p


I agree; can't get enough Leoben. He's my third favorite Cylon! :)

I agree; can't get enough Leoben. He's my third favorite Cylon! :)
With Six, Athena, D'anna & Tori trotting around, and Leoben is your third favorite Cylon?? :eek:

Obviously, you've never studied Lamarr's theory of use and disuse. :p

_______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

With Six, Athena, D'anna & Tori trotting around, and Leoben is your third favorite Cylon?? :eek:


Cavell and D'Anna are my favs, based on how their characters are written and the superb performances given by Stockwell and Lawless. I do carry a little lust in my heart for the other Cylon hotties as well, 'natch. ;)

In case anyone else was wondering, a quick search on ebay shows that season 1 is out on HD-DVD, but nothing is on BRD.

You [palladin] have a generally acerbic, wise-cracking writing style and lot of what you post comes off as sarcastic, to me--the impressions of others may vary.



My impression certainly does very vary! These two gems by Palladin had me litterally laughing out loud:


PRONUNCIAINT - 'One who fails to pronunciate properly'
...
Well, if it does, don't forget where you heard it first, as I postulated the reproduction theory a while back as the distinguishing feature of the Final Five.

Of course, if it doesn't, please don't associate that 'ridiculous' theory with me to any extent. ;)


To each his own.

In case anyone else was wondering, a quick search on ebay shows that season 1 is out on HD-DVD, but nothing is on BRD.
Yup, that is correct. And if you do have an HD-DVD player by any chance, you may wish to check the reviews for Season 1, as I seem to recall that there were some kind of issues, perhaps PQ related, that led to much discontent among those who purchased it.

I don't see how Universal has much choice but to re-release it on BRD if they want to make some money off of their shining star, and will hopefully clean-up whatever the problem was.

____________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I don't see how Universal has much choice but to re-release it on BRD if they want to make some money off of their shining star, and will hopefully clean-up whatever the problem was.


Sure. It's not "if" but "when". And I've also heard of audio/video quality problems with the HD-DVD's. You might find more info in the forum for those things.

The S1 HD-DVD set looks very good (when you take into consideration that the show itself isn't exactly an HD reference type show), but some reported problems with the audio sync on the miniseries only. I don't see it on my set. There is more macroblocking than I'd like, but I'm not sure how likely that would be to be fixed in a BD release. The video quality gets progressively better as the season goes along.

The main problem with the set was that early shipments had scratches on them and some wouldn't play. I had to return my first set but the second set is nearly perfect.

Just wanted to throw this out there since so many people have complaints about the HD grainy picture quality. I saw a post on the Lightwave3D forums from a former VFX artist who worked on the show. He told stories about how horrible the show is filmed. According to him, they film all of the live action elements with the excessive grain coming from "in camera". It is not added in Post Production. None of the footage is shot clean and this would cause the VFX crew a lot of problems when it came to effects work.

So sorry to say I don't think we'll ever see a release of BSG with great PQ. :(

Just wanted to throw this out there since so many people have complaints about the HD grainy picture quality. I saw a post on the Lightwave3D forums from a former VFX artist who worked on the show. He told stories about how horrible the show is filmed. According to him, they film all of the live action elements with the excessive grain coming from "in camera". It is not added in Post Production. None of the footage is shot clean and this would cause the VFX crew a lot of problems when it came to effects work.

So sorry to say I don't think we'll ever see a release of BSG with great PQ. :(
Damn. For only your second post, I wish you had been the bearer of better news than that. Its been awhile, but my recollection from the format war discussion days was that there were some methodologies that could quite literally 'eliminate' grain (Thompson, maybe?), but at the cost of a flatter, more static appearance. But if the problem is as bad as you are suggesting, perhaps further consideration may be warranted for this alternative.

__________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Just wanted to throw this out there since so many people have complaints about the HD grainy picture quality. I saw a post on the Lightwave3D forums from a former VFX artist who worked on the show. He told stories about how horrible the show is filmed. According to him, they film all of the live action elements with the excessive grain coming from "in camera". It is not added in Post Production. None of the footage is shot clean and this would cause the VFX crew a lot of problems when it came to effects work.

So sorry to say I don't think we'll ever see a release of BSG with great PQ. :(

Is that why the spaceship effects shots look so jaw-droppingly gorgeous relative to the live action sequences? They're extremely crisp and clear.

Another random thought:

Hera is a product of an 8. I suspect everybody wonders why the 8s are 'out-of-sequence' in regards to there being a 'final five'. Maybe the 8s have the same 'fundamental difference' as the final five, perhaps the 8s were originally 'final five' and at some time in the past they got swapted with the 7s, which we have not (so far as we know) been introduced to.

Maybe the 'one to be revealed' is a 7.

Another random thought:

Hera is a product of an 8. I suspect everybody wonders why the 8s are 'out-of-sequence' in regards to there being a 'final five'. Maybe the 8s have the same 'fundamental difference' as the final five, perhaps the 8s were originally 'final five' and at some time in the past they got swapted with the 7s, which we have not (so far as we know) been introduced to.

Maybe the 'one to be revealed' is a 7.

Would you please take some asperin before posting. You're giving me a headache. :D

Just kidding with you CardiacArrest. I've kind of wondered the same thing about 8s. Something is different about them that might better be explained as 8a and 8b....with one of them being the last of the final five.

Is that why the spaceship effects shots look so jaw-droppingly gorgeous relative to the live action sequences? They're extremely crisp and clear.

Funny you should mention that. The space effects are actually rendered at 720p and upconverted to 1080p to take that "computer generated" edge off the image. Then a layer of film grain is applied over that. lol

Funny you should mention that. The space effects are actually rendered at 720p and upconverted to 1080p to take that "computer generated" edge off the image. Then a layer of film grain is applied over that. lol
Okay, now I feel like you're just trying to piss us off intentionally ;).

Tell you what. Cough up Grace Park's personal cellphone number, and I'll do what I can to stop the others from rendering you limb from limb. :p

______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Hey don't kill the messenger. ;)

Hey don't kill the messenger. ;)
Fine. Do you have a stunt double, I could kill in your stead?
BTW, are you one of the knights that say 'Nays'?

And on a more serious note, has any of the space vfx footage been preserved without the 'benefit' :rolleyes: of the film grain layer?

_______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Is that why the spaceship effects shots look so jaw-droppingly gorgeous relative to the live action sequences? They're extremely crisp and clear.

ok rant of the day for me:

thats why "bsg" isnt "the best show on tv"....they lose points for the grainy look....lets get everyone to get big expensive hdtvs but then lets shoot stuff to make it look nowhere as good as it could....and dont give me any of those "its for artsy reasons" either....it gets dropped down pegs in my book.

Fine. Do you have a stunt double, I could kill in your stead?
BTW, are you one of the knights that say 'Nays'?

And on a more serious note, has any of the space vfx footage been preserved without the 'benefit' :rolleyes: of the film grain layer?

_______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind


Feel free to kill my stunt double. He's my stand in for the final five shot in the opera house. :D

Knights that say "nays", what is that?

As far as the clean space fx footage, I dunno. I do know for sure that all of the models and scenes are backed up and all of the composition elements can be redone at any time. So its quite easy for them to remove the film grain if they wanted. Sort of like a photoshop layer.
Not so much for the live action footage though.:mad:

Knights that say "nays", what is that?
A sly reference to a famous routine in 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail'

As far as the clean space fx footage, I dunno. I do know for sure that all of the models and scenes are backed up and all of the composition elements can be redone at any time. So its quite easy for them to remove the film grain if they wanted. Sort of like a photoshop layer.
Not so much for the live action footage though.:mad:
Well, that's at least some good news.

Are you at all familiar with the film grain removal technique I referenced, which I believe was originally pioneered by Thompson, or would that be precluded as the grain occurred 'in camera'?

_____________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Well this is what the guy had to say about it.

oh god! don't get me started with BSG and the film grain deal.
BSG is probably the only show on TV that uses "in camera effects" from the Sony HD 900/950 cameras and the DP on the show just doesn't get it that we can match whatever look he wants for grain in post easier than it is for him to shoot (read destroy) in camera with grain.
Yes, all the VFX shots are "grain added" to match. But frankly its to match crappy cinematography instead of matching a look. I frequently caught the DP on the show shooing greenscreen and other vFX shots on the show at plus 24dB! Can you imagine how much of a pain in the *** that is for roto? or general paint work! It's ******* stupid!
BSG VFX = 80% fixing crappy shot video.

If you want to get some insight on the steps they take to make and composite all of the VFX for BSG take a look at this tutorial. Its written by the same guy who i quoted above. Now I know it may all look a bit greek to anyone who doesn't use the software but it provides a valuable insight on the goings on. :)

http://www.battlestarvfx.com/bsg_tutorial_shotbreakoutandlighting.htm

ok rant of the day for me:

thats why "bsg" isnt "the best show on tv"....they lose points for the grainy look....lets get everyone to get big expensive hdtvs but then lets shoot stuff to make it look nowhere as good as it could....and dont give me any of those "its for artsy reasons" either....it gets dropped down pegs in my book.

You have a right to your opinion, but that just doesn't make sense to me. That's like saying Schindler's List sucked because it was in black and white. It could've been in color, but they chose to make it black and white for artistic reasons. Doesn't change my opinion of the story, acting, or effect of the film in the least.

The original Star Wars movies effects aren't nearly as sophisticated as the prequels'. Doesn't mean the prequels are better. It's all about the story and how it's told. The BSG creators' choosing to add grain isn't my favorite choice, but I understand why it's done. It's not like the show looks horrible or anything. And I certainly wouldn't drop it down a few pegs based on how pretty it isn't. It's not a pretty story.

The original Star Wars movies effects aren't nearly as sophisticated as the prequels'. Doesn't mean the prequels are better.

but thats my point....play the dvd of star wars ep IV...it looks great....it pretty bad when a 31 year old movie looks better than a tv show from today.

ps. schlinders list couldnt have been that great....jerry made out thru half of it. :D

Well this is what the guy had to say about it.



If you want to get some insight on the steps they take to make and composite all of the VFX for BSG take a look at this tutorial. Its written by the same guy who i quoted above. Now I know it may all look a bit greek to anyone who doesn't use the software but it provides a valuable insight on the goings on. :)

http://www.battlestarvfx.com/bsg_tutorial_shotbreakoutandlighting.htmI found an article entitled "Breaking the Comfort Zone: How HD workflows paid off for Battlestar Galactica and Enterprise (http://digitalcontentproducer.com/dcc/revfeat/video_breaking_comfort_zone/)" at a site called digitalcontentproducer.com (http://digitalcontentproducer.com), which says that the film grain in BSG is added in post production; I quoted the following bit of it in this thread a little over a year back, in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10247665#post10247665) post:
Meanwhile, elsewhere in Hollywood, director Michael Rymer pauses briefly from a round of meetings regarding development of an independent film he hopes to direct, possibly shot in HD, to discuss another high-profile, science-fiction franchise show now airing on the Sci Fi Channel: Battlestar Galactica. Rymer directed the two-part Battlestar miniseries in 2003, which was shot on 35mm film, then the series pilot in 2004 and this year's season-ending two-part episode — all of which were shot using Panavised versions of Sony's HDW-F900/3 system. Rymer freely concedes that he initially opposed, with fervor, shooting the series in HD. He recalls being opposed to the concept “in an emotional, obstinate way.” Harvey Frand, the show's producer, says the switch to HD from film was required in order to make the show affordable to produce. But despite that reality, he says that Rymer resisted and constantly fought to return to film. Rymer, however, now raves about the show's HD production model. He promises to direct more episodes for season two (the show was renewed shortly before press time), and he says his Battlestar experience has convinced him to seriously consider shooting his new movie in HD.

What changed his mind? How did both shows, which essentially represent the state-of-the-art for producing high-end science fiction for television, transition into HD production? What have been the advantages, disadvantages, lessons, and visual effects and post consequences of these two moves into the HD acquisition universe? To answer these questions, Millimeter recently chatted with key production and post players intimately involved in both shows.

Rymer explains his initial HD reticence as a mixture of past experience, misconceptions, and miscommunication. “During the miniseries, we established the aesthetic for Battlestar Galactica, and that was done on film,” he says. “We wanted a documentary- style quality and a gritty look in keeping with that. So we were pushing grain and making depth of field as shallow as we could and doing lots of handheld, long-lens work. So, going into the series, from what I knew about HD, which was admittedly limited, I had a concern that it would not be conducive to applying this sort of documentary aesthetic.

“I had previously done some HD tests for a micro-budget feature in which exterior daylight work was less than satisfactory — probably that is the worst environment for HD. In applying that experience in my mind to Battlestar Galactica, I couldn't see how we could make it work. That was my initial reaction. Then, we went through our first phase of testing with [DP Steve McNutt], who had experience with HD. Steve was primarily doing tests for himself, to test lighting and things. My first impression of those tests was not favorable either because it wasn't grungy enough for the look of our show — it was mainly clean, bright lines. The video was picking up the fluorescent bars of various consoles on our [spaceship interior] set. I saw a slick, high- tech environment, which might be great for some sci-fi shows, but not for ours. That made me even grumpier. By then, I had a pretty bad attitude about HD.”

However grumpy, though, Rymer was informed that HD was the only option. McNutt was given more direction about Rymer's concerns for the next round of tests, and Rymer started to cheer up.

“Steve pushed gain, desaturated, and tweaked things using his state-of-the-art video village,” Rymer recalls. “What I realized is that the video village, which I called the crab shack, had technology in it that someone with experience could use to transform the imagery into the look we wanted. He really pushed the gain; he brought up digital noise, which approximated film grain nicely, and he showed me the control he could have. It wasn't perfect — daylight exteriors are still a limitation — but it became clear we could maintain, and even improve, the gritty look we had previously established."

McNutt's “crab shack” is, in reality, a Sony MSU 750 (Master Setup Unit) system for realtime image painting, combined with a Sony 20in. BVM-D20 F1E HD monitor and a Sony 14in. BVM-14 H5E HD monitor, encased in a portable tent that McNutt designed himself. There McNutt toils, with assistance from video engineer Michael Sankey, to finalize the look of each episode, manipulating color as needed on set. This kind of setup, he explains, is the entire reason that shooting digitally now makes sense on shows like Battlestar Galactica.That article was published three years ago--they may have changed methods since then. Also, it was more concerned with interior camera shots than VFX space scenes.

but thats my point....play the dvd of star wars ep IV...it looks great....it pretty bad when a 31 year old movie looks better than a tv show from today.

ps. schlinders list couldnt have been that great....jerry made out thru half of it. :D

You have a right to your opinion, but that just doesn't make sense to me. That's like saying Schindler's List sucked because it was in black and white.

As loco said, your point still makes absolutely no sense. Aside from Schindler's List, you've got Sin City, Clerks, Pi, Raging Bull and many others. I guess you deducted a few points from 300 as well? They clearly added grain to that also.

You can say, "...don't give me any of those 'its for artsy reasons' either..." but that is why it's there. It's deliberate. Even so, it still looks pretty good on HD.

Knights that say "nays", what is that?
A sly reference to a famous routine in 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail'It's actually "Knights of Ni". If you've never seen the bit, Nays, you should. Clips of it have been posted at YouTube a few times, including here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIV4KLCmJ98), and there's a Wikipedia article on it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_ni).

As loco said, your point still makes absolutely no sense. Aside from Schindler's List, you've got Sin City, Clerks, Pi, Raging Bull and many others. I guess you deducted a few points from 300 as well? They clearly added grain to that also.



yea i did....and we are drifting into movies....really talkin about a tv show that has to be suffered thru every week for years not a 2:25 flick.

yea i did....and we are drifting into movies....really talkin about a tv show that has to be suffered thru every week for years not a 2:25 flick.Television, like theatrical-release film, is a visual art-form in which presentation is largely at the choice of the director, so long as what he chooses is within his budget. Michael Rymer, director of the mini-series and several episodes, wanted to establish a rough, hand-held documentary-like feel. The people in the story are refugees being pursued by a threatening, superior force, and the visual texture of the video has been chosen to give an air of rough, produced-under-fire-with-portable-equipment battlefield expediency that you might get from crew shooting a documentary on the frontlines of a war.

Read the quotes from that article that I posted a couple back. Rymer experimented with HD when he was told that they couldn't afford to produce the series using the film techniques that he employed in the mini-series and was pissed off when he saw the slick quality of the results until they got him together with a digital post production guy who could deliver the film grain that he was looking for.

It's actually "Knights of Ni". If you've never seen the bit, Nays, you should. Clips of it have been posted at YouTube a few times, including here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIV4KLCmJ98), and there's a Wikipedia article on it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_ni).
:rolleyes: Really? Ni, you say? No kiddin'? Sonuvagun. Where are the Gods when you need them? :eek: :rolleyes: Look, He's a new member who's provided some interesting info about BSG, and I was just welcoming him on board with a friendly allusion. That's all. It wasn't a battle of the network stars or anything. Just a gesture. But maybe this is the right time to address an important point you may not appreciate - While we all may not be engineers, you may rest assured that we are also not lemmings that would simply race off a cliff without someone else's guidance.

___________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

:rolleyes: Really? Ni, you say? No kiddin'? Sonuvagun. Where are the Gods when you need them? :eek: :rolleyes: Look, He's a new member who's provided some interesting info about BSG, and I was just welcoming him on board with a friendly allusion. That's all. It wasn't a battle of the network stars or anything. Just a gesture. But maybe this is the right time to address an important point you may not appreciate - While we all may not be engineers, you may rest assured that we are also not lemmings that would simply race off a cliff without someone else's guidance.That post was not aimed at you, nor was I correcting you. I thought that you were intentionally making a joke out of "Knight Who Say Nays" as a pun on "Knights Who Say Ni" and I was not implying that you didn't know what the word used in the movie was. I thought that since Nays did not pick up your reference he might not have ever seen the Python bit, and was elaborating on your explanation that it was from a Python movie, giving him a link to where he could see a clip of that movie, as a friendly gesture.

No worries guys. lol

I have seen that Monty Python bit before. I'm surprised I didn't get the reference actually. haha

ok rant of the day for me:

thats why "bsg" isnt "the best show on tv"....they lose points for the grainy look....lets get everyone to get big expensive hdtvs but then lets shoot stuff to make it look nowhere as good as it could....and dont give me any of those "its for artsy reasons" either....it gets dropped down pegs in my book.

I would prefer to watch a great show, say for example Rescue Me or BSG, in highly compressed standard def DirectTV, than just about any other show in pristine HD. I'm primarily concerned with content (character and story). If I were evaluating what are "the best shows on TV", it would not even occur to me to consider pixel resolution and sharpness as factors. Seems pretty superficial to me in the grand sceme of things, no matter how much I spent on my HDTV.

I would prefer to watch a great show, say for example Rescue Me or BSG, in highly compressed standard def DirectTV, than just about any other show in pristine HD. I'm primarily concerned with content (character and story). If I were evaluating what are "the best shows on TV", it would not even occur to me to consider pixel resolution and sharpness as factors. Seems pretty superficial to me in the grand sceme of things, no matter how much I spent on my HDTV.

right....so if it doesnt really matter and you would watch anyways than why not shoot it in pristine HD.

right....so if it doesnt really matter and you would watch anyways than why not shoot it in pristine HD.Because the director doesn't feel that pristine HD properly communicates what he's trying to say.

BTW, why do you hold theatrical film to a different standard? If you buy or rent a BD of say Minority Report (if and when such a thing might appear :rolleyes:), you're going to get the same intentionally grainy picture with desaturated colors and blown-out highlights as you'd see at the theater, and pay even more to watch it than HDTV (cost of Blu-ray player, disc purchase or rental).

I would prefer to watch a great show, say for example Rescue Me or BSG, in highly compressed standard def DirectTV, than just about any other show in pristine HD. I'm primarily concerned with content (character and story). If I were evaluating what are "the best shows on TV", it would not even occur to me to consider pixel resolution and sharpness as factors. Seems pretty superficial to me in the grand sceme of things, no matter how much I spent on my HDTV.
While I tend to agree with your inclination toward the old adage "Content is King", I don't think the issue is quite as 'cut and dry', as you seem to be suggesting (unless I'm misreading you), at least for me.

Yes, for all intents and purposes I agree that the quality of the content should be the primary consideration. However, having said that, I must also acknowledge, that the substance without form, can easily be as deleterious. For me to truly enjoy a film or TV show, the suspension of disbelief is not a preference, but rather an imperative. And nothing can ruin great content for me faster than losing my immersion in the material.
There are many, many works I can think of which stand out as great films that would not have been nearly as successful for ‘me’ , if not for the interaction of the content and the mood/atmosphere invoked by the cinematography. Films by Welles, Kubrick, Ridley Scott, etc. etc.

So continuing in that vein, while BSG in SD on the Sci Fi Channel (as the Provider Gods have not blessed me with Sci-fi HD yet), is one of my favorite shows, it seems nonetheless compromised by the practicalities of the transmission. Can’t speak for Skiffy–HD, but while I will always watch a new ep when it premieres on Sci-fi SD, I look forward to watching it again on UHD, because the package now seems more complete and easier to lose yourself in. And to be clear, UHD is by no means the pinnacle of HD Broadcast or bit-rates, but at least I don’t feel tempted to throw my shoes at the screen on occassion.

_________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

right....so if it doesnt really matter and you would watch anyways than why not shoot it in pristine HD.

It's like we're going around in circles. Or banging our heads against a wall.


Yes, for all intents and purposes I agree that the quality of the content should be the primary consideration. However, having said that, I must also acknowledge, that the substance without form, can easily be as deleterious. For me to truly enjoy a film or TV show, the suspension of disbelief is not a preference, but rather an imperative. And nothing can ruin great content for me faster than losing my immersion in the material.
There are many, many works I can think of which stand out as great films that would not have been nearly as successful for ‘me’ , if not for the interaction of the content and the mood/atmosphere invoked by the cinematography. Films by Welles, Kubrick, Ridley Scott, etc. etc.

So continuing in that vein, while BSG in SD on the Sci Fi Channel (as the Provider Gods have not blessed me with Sci-fi HD yet), is one of my favorite shows, it seems nonetheless compromised by the practicalities of the transmission. Can’t speak for Skiffy–HD, but while I will always watch a new ep when it premieres on Sci-fi SD, I look forward to watching it again on UHD, because the package now seems more complete and easier to lose yourself in. And to be clear, UHD is by no means the pinnacle of HD Broadcast or bit-rates, but at least I don’t feel tempted to throw my shoes at the screen on occassion.

As someone who barely got BSG in HD midway through season 4, I think I can safely say it doesn't matter. Yes, it is cleaner and at times gorgeous in HD (depending on the scene), but, quite frankly, it simply doesn't matter for this show. Picture quality isn't the same as atmosphere, and while some of BSG's atmosphere may indeed be set by the grain that they use, it isn't really indicative of the quality, because whether in HD or SD, the grain is still there (even more evident in HD actually). I'm hoping that makes as much sense reading it as it did in my head as I was typing it. lol

I just started getting HD scifi this season and makes very little difference, the show is so dark lighting wise, it hardly matters, as long as they can deliver the same quality story and overall look, I'll give them a free pass.

I view BSG as the best show on TV. I can't say for certain that the "artistic" choices made in the look of the show don't contribute to that. Who knows, if it were pristine it may not feel as authentic and I may not be so deep into the show when viewing.

Bottom line is, as long as I view them as the best show on television, I'm not going to suggest any radical changes. That's something a network suit would do.

I view BSG as the best show on TV. I can't say for certain that the "artistic" choices made in the look of the show don't contribute to that. Who knows, if it were pristine it may not feel as authentic and I may not be so deep into the show when viewing.


It would look like TNG...which would be REALLY REALLY bad

Well, we have Hera (mother was Cylon) and we have Nicky (Fatther was a “special” Cylon) and we have an apparent knocked-up Six (A Cylon & Tigh the inseminator and a “special” Cylon). Looks like special Cylons can knock-up both Humans and Cylons. The only question now is whether or not the special female Cylon can be knocked-up at all. Maybe Baltar will have something to really sob about, if it is found he has one in the oven?

right....so if it doesnt really matter and you would watch anyways than why not shoot it in pristine HD.

The high-contrast and crisp look of pristine unaffected video is good for sports or a reality show, but not a great look for a gritty drama like BSG. It would basically end up looking like a daytime soap opera, which is NOT complementary to the dark mood the writers and producers are trying to create on that show. For maximum impact to the audience, the visual palette needs to match the emotional context of the story.

The high-contrast and crisp look of pristine unaffected video is good for sports or a reality show, but not a great look for a gritty drama like BSG. It would basically end up looking like a daytime soap opera, which is NOT complementary to the dark mood the writers and producers are trying to create on that show. For maximum impact to the audience, the visual palette needs to match the emotional context of the story.

Well said!

The high-contrast and crisp look of pristine unaffected video is good for sports or a reality show, but not a great look for a gritty drama like BSG. It would basically end up looking like a daytime soap opera, which is NOT complementary to the dark mood the writers and producers are trying to create on that show. For maximum impact to the audience, the visual palette needs to match the emotional context of the story.

totally dont agree...."revenge of the sith", a dark not happy movie at all, looks beautiful on dvd, sharp, colorful, clean, and on blu-ray will be a reference quality disk and its the 8th biggest $$ making movie of all time so im guessing shooting it that way didnt hurt it....i would rather watch that than grain anyday....so tell that white wine sipping bree eating producer to take his grain and....well u know. :D

ps- i like how "next gen" looks compared to "bsg."

I just started getting HD scifi this season and makes very little difference, the show is so dark lighting wise, it hardly matters, as long as they can deliver the same quality story and overall look, I'll give them a free pass.

It really only pays off for the sweeping VFX shots. Otherwise, you shouldn't expect too much of an improvement.

totally dont agree...."revenge of the sith", a dark not happy movie at all, looks beautiful on dvd, sharp, colorful, clean, and on blu-ray will be a reference quality disk and its the 8th biggest $$ making movie of all time so im guessing shooting it that way didnt hurt it....i would rather watch that than grain anyday....so tell that white wine sipping bree eating producer to take his grain and....well u know. :D

ps- i like how "next gen" looks compared to "bsg."

If you'd actually rather watch Revenge of the Sith or Next Gen than BSG, well, there's no accounting for taste.

All we're saying is we think it's about content and story more than whether or not there's grain. I also happen to agree with vfxproducer that the grain and doc style BSG uses services the story. It would look silly if it looked like Stargate Atlantis. In fact, I dare say it really wouldn't feel like the same show.

If you'd actually rather watch Revenge of the Sith or Next Gen than BSG, well, there's no accounting for taste.

All we're saying is we think it's about content and story more than whether or not there's grain. I also happen to agree with vfxproducer that the grain and doc style BSG uses services the story. It would look silly if it looked like Stargate Atlantis. In fact, I dare say it really wouldn't feel like the same show.

I didn't even know "Revenge" was a dark movie. Maybe it's because of the awful writing in the Star Wars movies, or because Hayden Chris...whatever is about as good an actor as a brick wall, but that movie seemed fairly light to me. It should have been dark though.

I also agree that the grain and documentary-style is somewhat pertinent to the story. It isn't always used (most notably, for some reason, I keep thinking of that scene with Laura and the cancer patient on the boat), but without it I think it would detract from the overall experience.

totally dont agree...."revenge of the sith", a dark not happy movie at all, looks beautiful on dvd, sharp, colorful, clean, and on blu-ray will be a reference quality disk and its the 8th biggest $$ making movie of all time so im guessing shooting it that way didnt hurt it

That was almost universally panned by critics and fans across the board. Pretty pictures don't mean much if it's just a pretty piece of crap.

That was almost universally panned by critics and fans across the board. Pretty pictures don't mean much if it's just a pretty piece of crap.Not to in any way support dcowboy7's stance, but Revenge of the Sith didn't do that badly. 198 of 248 media reviews (79%) examined by rottentomatoes.com gave it a positive review (see this (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_3/)) and 139,650 folks gave it a 7.9 out of 10 average rating at IMDb (here (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121766/)). Even Roger Ebert gave it 3.5 out of 4 stars (here (http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050519/REVIEWS/50503002/1023)).

Though it didn't choose to use the grainy, shaky-camera, psuedo-documentary style, it wouldn't have been appropriate for it where it is appropriate for BSG. I'm sure that many subtle choices were made by the cinematographer of Star Wars III that set the mood for that film as well.

That was almost universally panned by critics and fans across the board. Pretty pictures don't mean much if it's just a pretty piece of crap.

roger ebert gave it 3.5 lightsabers. :D

I'm sure that many subtle choices were made by the cinematographer of Star Wars III that set the mood for that film as well.

Did you just say that with a straight face? bwahahaha.

I kid, I kid. I guess it wasn't *that* bad, but I HATE/LOATHE the first three new star wars movies because of how great they *could* have been without G.L. being involved. Sigh. With BSG-class writing, those actors and actresses could have flourished (ever see Natalie Portman in something good?) in what is a ripe construct/universe to draw from for theater.

That was almost universally panned by critics and fans across the board. Pretty pictures don't mean much if it's just a pretty piece of crap.

Agreed I have all the star wars movies, some three times due to format.
The last three where money grabbing garbage, the originals look so much better on film, and better acting, not great by any stretch of the imagination. But so much better. I'll take the content over the glitz.

"revenge of the sith", a dark not happy movie at all, looks beautiful on dvd, sharp, colorful, clean, and on blu-ray will be a reference quality disk and its the 8th biggest $$ making movie of all time so im guessing shooting it that way didnt hurt it....i would rather watch that than grain anyday....so tell that white wine sipping bree eating producer to take his grain and....well u know. :D

ps- i like how "next gen" looks compared to "bsg."

I'm not sure how box office relates in any way to picture quality. But adjusted for inflation, Sith doesn't even make the top 20.

Aside from perhaps Speed Racer, Revenge of the Sith is basically as close to a video game as a movie can get, in both visual imagery, acting, and character development. If that, along with ST: Next Generation (which was mastered in beautiful crisp NTSC, by the way), are your idea of quality, give up on BSG right now. You aren't its target audience, and the effort is wasted on you.

By the way, tequila is my drink of choice.

Well, we have Hera (mother was Cylon) and we have Nicky (Fatther was a “special” Cylon) and we have an apparent knocked-up Six (A Cylon & Tigh the inseminator and a “special” Cylon). Looks like special Cylons can knock-up both Humans and Cylons. The only question now is whether or not the special female Cylon can be knocked-up at all. Maybe Baltar will have something to really sob about, if it is found he has one in the oven?

I think what we're going to find out is that the Final Five (or the Watchtower Four, at least) are "special" because they themselves are hybrids. Now, how they get from here to there is going to make the last 11 hours so interesting. We may be entering alternate universe or time-travel territory (perhaps the maelstrom Starbuck disappeared into was a man-made construct?), which might bother a lot of purists. I'm not sure how they can possibly resolve things with the pieces set up on the board the way they have without resorting to something like that, but the writers on this show consistently find a way to astonish and astound, so they get the benefit of the doubt from me.

And since Tigh and Captive Six apparently scored, let's not forget that Anders and Tory have gotten frisky as well. Might be all kinds of various hybrid permutations running around!

Oh, and I like tequila, but I'm not sure it's too crazy about me. ;)

Really interesting blog here:

http://darthmojo.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/bsg-vfx-revelations/

It's one of BSG's vfx guys explaining how they did the final apocalyptic earth shots, as well as the last shot of the fleet before the jump to Earth.

I love that final shot of the fleet, with the sun in the background. It gives me chills every time I see it.

It's one of BSG's vfx guys explaining how they did the final apocalyptic earth shots,

It is an interesting blog, though IMO it is a stretch to call the shots "apocalyptic earth". Those final shots, per the blog, were meant to represent a post-apocalyptic-city.

No one knows anything about the actual landscape of BSG Earth. It could have been nine-tenths unpopulated, thus for all we know left mostly pristine and a perfect location for the newly arrived denizens. In defense of the show, it would have been very easy to artistically depict a wasted planet... especially from a spacial view. Instead, we were shown the remains of a city, painful disappointment on the character's faces, then it ended.

Nitpick much? It's easier to say "apocalyptic earth" than "apocalyptic maybe, maybe not earth city". I think people knew what I meant. :p

No, no, I wasn't nitpicking, and I wasn't really singling you out personally or anything. Quite a few people have mentioned that the whole planet was blown away, and I just hadn't responded to that yet. I think what I said has merit, and it was intended in a peaceful and respectful way. I hope you don't think I was being contentious.

Personally, I hope there were just a few select cities or locations destroyed. From my POV, it would make things more interesting, because I was a bit disappointed. Maybe there are entire colonies of Humans and/or Cylons on the planet just over the horizon. And we don't know who or what destroyed that one city.

No, no, I wasn't nitpicking, and I wasn't really singling you out personally or anything. Quite a few people have mentioned that the whole planet was blown away, and I just hadn't responded to that yet. I think what I said has merit, and it was intended in a peaceful and respectful way. I hope you don't think I was being contentious.

Personally, I hope there were just a few select cities or locations destroyed. From my POV, it would make things more interesting, because I was a bit disappointed. Maybe there are entire colonies of Humans and/or Cylons on the planet just over the horizon. And we don't know who or what destroyed that one city.

That would be cool....kind of like the folks on Lost getting to the other side of the island and finding a Motel 6.

Well, something on the planet sent a signal. May just be an automatic beacon, but I'm hoping for more.

PainterPaul, don't mind me. I was just sad no one really had any comments on the actual blog, which I thought was really very interesting. No offense taken and none meant on my part.

As for that beacon, I still think it's from Starbuck's original Viper.

Well, I'll say this about the blog--I'm happy to know that all of the guesses were wrong. Not Manhattan seen from Brooklyn or the Sydney Harbor, but a spot in Vancouver.

Well, I'll say this about the blog--I'm happy to know that all of the guesses were wrong. Not Manhattan seen from Brooklyn or the Sydney Harbor, but a spot in Vancouver.

In fairness, you can't really say that any of the guesses were wrong. The blog only says where the plate was shot (waterfront in Vancouver), and not what city/view inspired the final effect nor what city it was intended to be. You'll note that the plate has neither a bridge nor a city across the water, so clearly its not intended to be THAT specific view of post-apocolyptic Vancouver.

The physical location of the shoreline plate is fairly irrelevant to the final storytelling. Vancouver and Los Angeles regularly play for NY, Las Vegas, San Francisco, Washington DC, India, Tokyo, Smallville ;) and a host of other locations around the world thanks to set extensions created in visual effects just like this shot. For example, you could easily take that exact same waterfront plate, but put the Golden Gate Bridge, Sausalito, and Angel Island into it, then *poof* the Vancouver location instantly becomes Crissy Field in San Francisco as far as your audience is concerned.

As far as comenting on the blog itself, I was surprised to read how much was created in Lightwave. A little matte painting for the background would have shaved a lot of time off the shot, and allowed for greater detail. If the only tool you have is a hammer, I guess you try to fix everything with a hammer.

Nitpick much? It's easier to say "apocalyptic earth" than "apocalyptic maybe, maybe not earth city". I think people knew what I meant. :p

Hah, well a few pages back someone did spend like 5 posts and 2000 words attacking someone for using the phrase "I'm sure...." for something that was only probably true.

As if that phrase ever actually meant that someone was 100% positive about something and would bet their life on it.

"Jenny, I'm sure Johnny didn't mean it that way."
"Marie, I'm sure Darryl still cares about you."

:D We are a hostile bunch. (kidding!)

By the way, the show officially wrapped filming last night. I'm kind of sad about that. I hope the cast and crew goes on to do more wonderful things!

:D We are a hostile bunch. (kidding!)

By the way, the show officially wrapped filming last night. I'm kind of sad about that. I hope the cast and crew goes on to do more wonderful things!

Trisha Helfer already moved onto Burn Notice.. Good for her!

Trisha Helfer already moved onto Burn Notice.. Good for her!

Yes! I have that on my DVR - will watch this weekend!

roger ebert gave it 3.5 lightsabers. :D

Don't you feel bad for the guy who goes into the fight with the .5 lightsaber?

- - -

I can't help but think BSG is heading toward the Asimov ending. I mean, the show has implied all along that there is a grand architect to all of this, so you're well into that part of the Foundation series. Humanoid robots? Check. Destroyed Earth? Check. Disappointment in the eventual finding of the destroyed Earth? Check.

And they said you could never adapt Asimov to TV or movie! Bah.

Don't you feel bad for the guy who goes into the fight with the .5 lightsaber?

- - -

I can't help but think BSG is heading toward the Asimov ending. I mean, the show has implied all along that there is a grand architect to all of this, so you're well into that part of the Foundation series. Humanoid robots? Check. Destroyed Earth? Check. Disappointment in the eventual finding of the destroyed Earth? Check.

And they said you could never adapt Asimov to TV or movie! Bah.

yea but darth maul still did ok against obi when his double saber got cut in half....he spaced on obi's jump though and it cost him.

Trisha Helfer already moved onto Burn Notice.. Good for her!From what I read, it was only a four episode arc. I think that she's got some sort of deal with Fox--there's this (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/television/news/e3i1ca7985186841ea815a14fa282b422c0) bit about her being cast in a pilot for series that's not on their Fall schedule.

Tahmoh Penikett (Helo) will be on Fox in the Fall in a Josh Whedon thing called Dollhouse which stars Eliza Dushku (of Buffy fame--see this (http://www.fox.com/programming/shows/new/dollhouse.htm)). Sounds DOA to me, but you never know :D. Whedon has a pretty good track-record with me--I was a fan of Buffy, Angel and Firefly.

i hope they bring this to ota tv so i can see it

Dollhouse looks very interesting.

Tahmoh Penikett (Helo) will be on Fox in the Fall in a Josh Whedon thing called Dollhouse which stars Eliza Dushku (of Buffy fame--see this (http://www.fox.com/programming/shows/new/dollhouse.htm)). Sounds DOA to me, but you never know :D. Whedon has a pretty good track-record with me--I was a fan of Buffy, Angel and Firefly.

Wow, I'm not sure they could've dreamt up two actors to cast that would have turned me off checking out the show more than those two.

From what I read, it was only a four episode arc. I think that she's got some sort of deal with Fox--there's this (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/television/news/e3i1ca7985186841ea815a14fa282b422c0) bit about her being cast in a pilot for series that's not on their Fall schedule.
I saw Helfer in her first appearance on Burn Notice. She was just fine but wasn’t given much to do. I, too, was glad to see her there. She has been terrific as Number Six on BSG, not to mention GREAT looking. :)

Tahmoh Penikett (Helo) will be on Fox in the Fall in a Josh Whedon thing called which stars Eliza Dushku (of Buffy fame--see this (http://www.fox.com/programming/shows/new/dollhouse.htm)). Sounds DOA to me, but you never know :D. Whedon has a pretty good track-record with me--I was a fan of Buffy, Angel and Firefly.
I, too, am a Whedon fan, having not only been a Buffyhead, but also having loved the cruelly cancelled Firefly. I hope that Dollhouse makes it. I understand that it has been guaranteed at least 13 episodes and that it will be shown with only half the usual number of commercials. That in itself is a hopeful sign. I like Whedon’s occult, other-worldly stuff, and his weird but charming characters.

I, too, am a Whedon fan, having not only been a Buffyhead, but also having loved the cruelly cancelled Firefly. I hope that Dollhouse makes it. I understand that it has been guaranteed at least 13 episodes and that it will be shown with only half the usual number of commercials. That in itself is a hopeful sign. I like Whedon’s occult, other-worldly stuff, and his weird but charming characters.

The trick will be getting people to tune in to begin with. He'll hold the audience he gets, but if it's heavily serialized, 'Dollhouse' might not be able to build it to a significant degree. FOX has to know that's how it will go down; ditto with J.J. Abrams' 'Fringe'. I'll be watching both, no doubt, but I'll never have a Nielsen box so that won't count for much. :p

Wow, I'm not sure they could've dreamt up two actors to cast that would have turned me off checking out the show more than those two.I've always thought that Dushku was merely adequate as the Buffy character Faith, but someone seems hell bent on finding a vehicle for her; every so often they find her a starring role in a series pilot. Maybe producers think that her smokey looks and gravelly voice should be highly marketable. I wish them good luck with that :).

Penikett is interesting in that apparently the original plan was to drop his character on BSG after the mini-series. The whole being-hunted-on-Cylon-occupied-Caprica-falling-in-love-with-Athena-and-fathering-her-child thing was an afterthought, created to keep him in the series due to popular demand. From a transcript of one of RDM's Season 1 podcasts (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Podcast:Tigh_Me_Up%2C_Tigh_Me_Down):
Helo, played by Tamoh, has this really long interesting storyline that runs the entire season. He was a character that in the miniseries was left behind on Caprica, and at the time of the miniseries there was no plan to bring him back. I mean, this entire subplot happening on Capric— on Cylon-occupied Caprica was not something that was originally planned. It was literally planned only after the premiere of the miniseries. In fact, I remember, when we watched the premiere of the miniseries at the Directors' Guild in Los Angeles with a live audience and projected it up on the big screen, and watched it as a film for the first time, as a movie— it was like, "wow, this thing really works as a movie"— and Helo came across really strongly. There were a lot of people in the lobby afterward asking if we had any plans to pick up Helo. "What's going to happen to Helo?" And I remember David and I— David Eick and I were both really surprised. We're sort of like "Helo? Really? No, there's no plans for Helo," and people being sort of disappointed, that he had really registered with the audience and he had really registered with us. And so, as we started making plans for the series, one of the ideas that just sort of kept rolling around in me head was, "well, what does happen to Helo?" Maybe there's a story line, that you could cut back to Cylon-occupied Caprica and see what's going on. And so when we were coming up with stories for the first season, I threw out there that there we would— that there was a story with Helo, with watching what Helo was doing on Cylon-occupied Caprica.I wonder what the hell they'd planned for the series before that decision??? Was there some alternate scheme for getting Athena into the fleet and pregnant by a human? The Helo/Athena/Hera thing is pivotal to the plot as it has developed.

Penikett himself has kept plenty busy with outside work during the run of BSG. He's had 9 other roles in that time, including 3 episodes of Smallville, 11 episodes of Cold Squad, and a bunch of other sundry bits, including some voice work in Robot Chicken and in a videogame (Need for Speed: Carbon).

I've always thought that Dushku was merely adequate as the Buffy character Faith, but someone seems hell bent on finding a vehicle for her; every so often they find her a starring role in a series pilot. Maybe producers think that her smokey looks and gravelly voice should be highly marketable. I wish them good luck with that :).

Penikett is interesting in that apparently the original plan was to drop his character on BSG after the mini-series. The whole being-hunted-on-Cylon-occupied-Caprica-falling-in-love-with-Athena-and-fathering-her-child thing was an afterthought, created to keep him in the series due to popular demand.
I’ve always liked Dushku. She is beautiful and brings an edginess and intelligence to what she does that I usually find appealing.

In stark contrast, I have never understood Penikett’s popularity in some quarters. He has always seemed to me to be just one more interchangeable Hollywood prettyboy. He is a good looking guy but his acting chops have struck me as being eminently forgettable. Of course, a lot of those guys have gone further on no better looks and even less talent than Penikett has shown, so what do I know? :)

EDIT: Typo corrected.

I'd tune in to watch Eliza read the phonebook.

I don't really get the love for Penikett either. I think he's, by far, the worst actor on BSG (Anyone play Carbon? LOL. Granted, he didn't have a whole lot to work with, and everyone in that game was horrible).

I don't like or dislike Dushku as an actress. But like you guys have said, she is hot.