Battlestar Galactica on SciFi HD - Season 4 [Text View] - Page 29

moob

01-17-09, 02:01 AM

The cry-baby thing and the boozing it up is... getting old and it's losing it's effect. But I will stick with it, what the hell. <ho hum>
Remind me when my entirely family dies in a nuclear holocaust and then after being on the run from the enemy for years and then having my one reason for living being pulled out from under me to eat some cotton candy and laugh it up. :confused:

As for the episode, welcome back BSG. I missed being depressed. :p

I think everyone knew something was going to happen with Dee since they threw all this attention on her out of nowhere, but I didn't really expect that. And with the smirk she gave Gaeta, and with what she said to Hera, I did kind of think she could have been the 5th.

Speaking of the 5th, as I said before, no matter who they chose, people would feel let down. But for me, it works. It fits with what we've seen, and the how and the why haven't been answered.

I'm not even going to try to speculate anymore. For me, I think the best thing to do now is just sit back and watch the writers work their magic. The best show on television is back and I'm content to just enjoy the ride.

HDTVChallenged

01-17-09, 02:03 AM

2x
another one of my thoughts is that Ellen Tigh is really an older version of the 6 and maybe one Cylon is still to be revealed. I can't imagine that they are going to go the rest of the season having already given away the last Cylon. :cool:

I'm going to have to go back and re-check, but I'm pretty sure I saw individuals other than "The 12" in Tyrol's flashback ... then again maybe I was just hallucinating from the hypothermia.

HDTVChallenged

01-17-09, 02:07 AM

As for the episode, welcome back BSG. I missed being depressed. :p

LOL ... to properly set the mood, I re-watched the last 2 episodes of "Torchwood," season 2 before the premier.

ec2546

01-17-09, 02:28 AM

I cropped and posted 2 screen caps of the Cylon robot head they dug up on Earth. I think you can click on my username and then "View Blog".

If that doesn't work, you can also click on "Member BLOGs" at the very top of the page and type "BSG" into the "Find Blog Entries" box on the left. That should take you to it.

Battlestar Wiki is fubar right now so I can't get to their treasure trove of old Cylon pictures at the moment.

Edit: I found other pics of TOS Cylons. No, they're not the same at all.

ec2546

01-17-09, 02:50 AM

I'm going to have to go back and re-check, but I'm pretty sure I saw individuals other than "The 12" in Tyrol's flashback ...
There were 3 others, none I recognized. The blonde girl, though, looks a lot like the same actress who was in the dig site scene; wearing a blonde 6 wig in the background. HD is wonderful, but not wonderful enough to make out the designer name on the glasses Earth Cylon Tyrol was wearing.

moob

01-17-09, 03:05 AM

LA Times already has an interview with Kate Vernon up.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-cylon-2009jan17,0,3409207.story

Doesn't really reveal anything, but it is funny that she has had to sit on this for a while.

Great article (Maureen Ryan) with Ron Moore about the 5th as well: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html

Edit 2: I'm still reading through that article, but I think this answers a question many of us have:

Maureen Ryan: We see the flashback of Tyrol in that marketplace, and it seemed like a planet full of lots of different kinds of people, not just 12 different models. Is that right?

Ron Moore: Yes.

HDMe2

01-17-09, 03:24 AM

Pulling from my backside here...

Still entirely possible that the "final 5" are not THE 5 at all. By which I mean, they were human/cylon models from "earth" who somehow as yet to be explained survived that nuke... and they were somehow instrumental of development of new skinjob models... BUT there could be 5 skinjob models out there.

Again, purely from my backside... but we've been fed a lot of red herrings.

petergaryr

01-17-09, 05:28 AM

Going back to Ellen's comment about things being in place and we shall live again:

Could that be a reference to the 13th colony creating the first resurrection ship? Given that BSG has always included some religious allusions, how about a "Noah's Ark" plotline?

The 13th colony is on the brink of a nuclear war over some issue as yet to be revealed. The "final five" have figured out a way to escape the destruction through a resurrection process, making them "special". The "flood" of war comes, and only the few who know about the resurrection process manage to survive.

In any case, welcome back BSG. I've missed you.

whitestang06

01-17-09, 05:44 AM

They're the final five cylons of the 13th colony. All that was left after whoever, or whatever, wiped them out on Earth.

I'm also going to guess that whatever method of "rebirth" they had set up is what is responsible for the new Kara.

Trying to wrap my head around the timeline:
-4,000 years prior, the 13th tribe builds the Temple of the Five on the "Algae Planet." These 5 are the five priests of the "one whose name cannot be spoken."
-2,000 years prior, the Cylon civilization/13th colony is nuked into oblivion and the Five, apparently synonymous the the Five of the temple built 2,000 before Earth's holocaust.

Anyone willing to bet that this is linked to the "Great Blaze" that befell Kobol?

humdinger70

01-17-09, 06:02 AM

I'm just wondering how long it will take to reveal the final Cylon? They won't do it during this premiere episode (or will they?).

I posted that several hours before the episode aired. I was expecting that they would milk it for at one or two episodes, but this??

Cripes, did I call that or what? :D:eek::D:eek:

Palladin

01-17-09, 07:16 AM

The coolest reveal was finding out that we are all cylons.

And probably the most anticipated one as well. Cylons created man in their own image. Chicken and egg. Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. :(

________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Rutgar

01-17-09, 07:32 AM

In memory of Lt. Anastasia Dualla, 'Dee' (a photo that I took):

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff282/rutgar/BSG_HT022.jpg?t=1232195473
Kandyse McClure

bakntime

01-17-09, 07:51 AM

I love this show. I wish I had Sci-Fi HD.

vurbano

01-17-09, 08:17 AM

IMO the big reveal was finally that Starbuck is a cylon or well .......... an angel of death or god. What a wonderfully fracked up show.

Rutgar

01-17-09, 08:26 AM

IMO the big reveal was finally that Starbuck is a cylon or well .......... an angel of death or god. What a wonderfully fracked up show.

I thought it was stated that no one in the 'Last Supper' portrait was a cylon. I'm thinking that whatever happened with the ressurection of the 'five' on Earth, also affected Starbuck when she crashed. Starbuck being a Cylon is just too obvious of an answer. I hope, I'm not giving the writers to much credit here.

bakntime

01-17-09, 08:29 AM

Dualla was acting pretty weird too... It was very out of character for her to shoot herself, and there was something fishy about how sad she got over the jacks, why she took them off the planet, etc. It was almost like she was going through the same stuff that Anders, Tigh, Tyrol, and Tory went through.

And if Kara isn't a Cylon, then there's still some very big questions as to how and why she painted that "glyph" when she was a child, and where the brand new viper came from.

JimP

01-17-09, 08:53 AM

IMO the big reveal was finally that Starbuck is a cylon or well .......... an angel of death or god. What a wonderfully fracked up show.

Yeah, its got us wondering how Starbuck fits in. ...and the math doesn't work either. We've got 6 that are the final 5....unless there's a difference between the final 5 and whatever these guys are.

What would fit is Starbuck is a Cylon but was kicked out of the final 6 for insubordination leaving us with 5. lol

Bet the ship of lights from the original series shows up as a resurrection ship for these 5/6 characters.

vurbano

01-17-09, 08:57 AM

donaldsonjune

01-17-09, 10:12 AM

hello all,

what about col. thig's wife ellen? he's said to her while in the water, "you're the 6th?" :confused:

GrouchoDude

01-17-09, 10:13 AM

As for the episode, welcome back BSG. I missed being depressed. :p

LOL! So true. No show can bring the Prozac like BSG. Nothing else can make you feel so good about feeling so bad. :D

After sleeping on it all for a few hours, this is what I'm thinking....Okay, so what do we know about the Final Five's previous lives? When Tyrol, Anders, and Tigh were having their flashbacks, it was to an "ordinary" life in a pleasant, modern city, perhaps right before the nukes started dropping. (Would that indicate the explosion/damage in that bank vault; or was it a simple heist gone bad?) Notice the change in color palette? For a second, I thought our show crossed with 'Smallville' or 'Pushing Daisies' or something. First time in the show's history they've ever shot anything in something other than that washed-out, bluish sepia look. Maybe we got a little preview of what 'Caprica' is going to look like, fashions, etc.

I'm thinking that it's going to go down something like this: Earth represented a culture of Cylons decended from Cylon/human hybrids like Hera. They're all Cylons kind of like the way anyone with a drop of African blood is considered "black". So many generations have passed that the integration is complete, and all inhabitants of that earth are essentially Cylon. But then they're "discovered" by a tribe of either pure Cylons or pure humans who want to destroy the "bastard race" in order to give re-birth to a "pure" race. Since no amount of inbreeding can completely eradicate the human impulse to destroy anything unlike themselves, this cycle just keeps repeating over and over again.

So maybe Ellen is the "leader" of this faction of five that creates the regeneration technology. So then, they're finally ready when the "balloon goes up". They get regenerated, but everyone else dies. The rest of the Final 12, those other 7 skinjobs, are the last remaining "pure" Cylons, undiluted with human DNA, and they have the resurrection technology too. The Cycle repeats every few millenia. Not that far fetched; just look at how far human technology has advanced in just the last 50 years. Look at how close we're getting to real artificial intelligence just 30 years or so after the introduction of the personal computer. We're moving into an uncertain future at a frightening pace. "Future Shock", indeed.

I can see now how perhaps 'Caprica' might tie into this conclusion of BSG, and how Moore and Co. might be sowing the seeds for their next great saga.

Bring it on, baby. :)

aaronwt

01-17-09, 10:48 AM

hello all,

what about col. thig's wife ellen? he's said to her while in the water, "you're the 6th?" :confused:

drop it down one.

David F

01-17-09, 11:10 AM

I said a loooong time ago during the first season that the only two plotlines from the original show that might make it into the new one were the Pegasus and the Ship of Light. Nailed the Pegasus. I'm very unsure what is going on with Starbuck, but it feels as if she is an entity -- or being manipulated by entities -- other than Cylons or humans. She obviously is more than a standard human from the 12 Colonies. But she is also not a regular Cylon either, or she would have resurrected on one of their ships when she "died" at the gas planet. They obviously do not know her as a Cylon either (I loved the way Leoben was creeped out by her discovery of her corpse).

So what power brought her back? What power gave her prescience to paint the glyph as a child? It seems the only reasonable answer is that there is some other power we have not seen yet.

hooked01

01-17-09, 11:13 AM

I know it's been discussed previously, but...

How do you explain that Tigh was the same age on Earth when the Holocaust happened as he is "current" day and then somehow has been resurrected over the past 2000 years and then ended up on Caprica to be Adama's friend?

Adama said that Tigh had hair when they first met, so he's aged over the years that Adama knew him. All of the final five have. What gives? Maybe one of their differences is that they are reborn, not resurrected?

antneye

01-17-09, 11:36 AM

Although I have watched every episode through the years, I am by no means an expert on every last detail so some of what I say may not make sense.

1) I think the truth is that they are all Cylons in the sense that they were bred from the final 5.
2) Ellen says they will be reborn, not resurrected, so I suspect that explains the "aging" issue. Perhaps the final 5 are the only remaining that can go through the life cycle and reproduce. This would make them very special to the survival of the species.
3) Earth is "ground zero" for the resurrection process. I expect Starbuck was resurrected when she died on Earth. Being that we are descendants of Cylons, this will work on so called "humans"
4) Dee won't be so lucky since she didn't die on earth. Maybe she will..not sure.

My thoughts are not formed to the point that I can get them on paper, but I see this as a cycle where this group starts from earth goes out and starts a new civilization and in a few thousand years they blow themselves up and return to earth looking for a new beginning. I think what we are seeing now through the remainder of the series is the cycle beginning all over again.

FOPA

01-17-09, 12:03 PM

LOL! So true. No show can bring the Prozac like BSG. Nothing else can make you feel so good about feeling so bad. :D

...
I'm thinking that it's going to go down something like this: Earth represented a culture of Cylons decended from Cylon/human hybrids like Hera. They're all Cylons kind of like the way anyone with a drop of African blood is considered "black". So many generations have passed that the integration is complete, and all inhabitants of that earth are essentially Cylon. But then they're "discovered" by a tribe of either pure Cylons or pure humans who want to destroy the "bastard race" in order to give re-birth to a "pure" race. Since no amount of inbreeding can completely eradicate the human impulse to destroy anything unlike themselves, this cycle just keeps repeating over and over again.

So maybe Ellen is the "leader" of this faction of five that creates the regeneration technology. So then, they're finally ready when the "balloon goes up". They get regenerated, but everyone else dies. The rest of the Final 12, those other 7 skinjobs, are the last remaining "pure" Cylons, undiluted with human DNA, and they have the resurrection technology too. The Cycle repeats every few millenia. Not that far fetched; just look at how far human technology has advanced in just the last 50 years. Look at how close we're getting to real artificial intelligence just 30 years or so after the introduction of the personal computer. We're moving into an uncertain future at a frightening pace. "Future Shock", indeed.

...

Bring it on, baby. :)

Thanks GrouchoDude - Really great points here And what exactly IS a hybrid? We know their function, but do we know anything else?

Steve Scherrer

01-17-09, 12:33 PM

Some thoughts:

It seems that Ellen was not that concerned about dying in the vault because she knew she would be resurrected. Tigh seemed a lot more concerned, but didn't he nod knowingly when she said - we'll be together again?

I am also assuming the explosion in the vault related to the nuclear holocaust 2000 years ago.

So what are the "cylons" on earth? Here's a thought - they are humans who have learned how to download their conciousness into new bodies. Sort of the reverse of cylons - they have learned how to move towards machine from human, as opposed to moving from machine to human, as the 7 seem to be able to do.

So what I can make of the timeline - 13 tribes on Kobol. 1 tribe disagrees with the other 12, they go on their way to find earth. The other 12 settle on and near Caprica. The 1 tribe finds earth, learns how to download their own conciousness into manufactured human bodies? Some kind of enemy (pure machine? pure human? something else?) nukes them starting a war. Only 5 of these "cylon" humans survive and decide to try to find their way back to the 12 colonies. Somehow they make it back and hook up with the cylon machines during the 40 years of peace between the humans and their own cylon machine creations (on caprica). They team up with the machines to develop 7 new models of skinjob cylons (or are captured and used as a template to creat the 7 new models). So they aren't like the original five, but some derivative of the 5 - so the 5 are more advanced and different somehow, something they couldn't entirely replicate when they made the 7. And a difference between them and the final five is that there are no "copies" of the final five - only one conciousness that can be downloaded into only one new body, but multiple replicas of the new 7.

But somehow the original 5's memories were wiped and they were planted into the fleet for some reason. (But now this doesn't make entire sense because Tigh was in the fleet before this timeframe - perhaps some or only one of the final five models was used as a template to make the 7 new models, and the rest were incorporated into human society, then the final was incorporated into human society?)

I don't know if any of this makes complete sense. My suspicion is that the original earth cylons are really humans that learned how to download their conciousness into new manufactured bodies turning them, effectively, into cylons.

So what is Kara? There has got to be some entity pulling the strings (akin to the Ships of Light) that has used the original earth technology to insert her conciousness into a new manufactured body - so she is now like the original five while not actually being one of the original five?

MeowMeow

01-17-09, 12:44 PM

Whatever the story is, it takes huge balls to throw a bunch of grenades willy nilly into your story this late in its run.

I guess my long-standing theory is now shot. I was betting on the Asimov ending, which is basically the five were there to shepherd humanity to a new beginning. Oh, well. I should have known the answer couldn't be THAT simple. It is Galactica, after all.

Of course, in a way this could be an inverse Asimov. Maybe the five are there to shepherd humanity to its end. After all, some sheep do get turned into mutton.

My backup theory is almost done, too. I've been working through the notion that maybe everyone is dead, and has been dead since the attack on the colonies, and that the end role of Cylon God in the story is making them come to grips with their deaths. That one's kind of painful, though, since it would require Ron Moore stealing the and expanding the plot from The Sixth Sense >>gag<< .

Anyhoo...

Should be interesting.

MeowMeow

01-17-09, 12:53 PM

I loved the way Leoben was creeped out by her discovery of her corpse.

On the uptick, at least now the Cylons know how it feels when the humans meet one of them again.

MeowMeow

01-17-09, 01:01 PM

My thoughts on Ellen being the fifth:

1. It fits the Cylon MO. Particularly the notion of their relentless use of promiscuity as a tool of war. Sort of the old Napoleon quote that men are better governed by their vices than their virtues.

2. It sort of does explain how she came out of nowhere.

3. Poor Saul. How many times should a man watch his wife die?

4. Of all the characters who could be grand architect of something so nefarious, Ellen is the only one who truly, deeply fits the job. Every single other character in the story is barely able to bring themselves to brush their hair, let alone all of this.

I am assuming we'll see more Ellen, and not just in Saul's head. Should be fun.

Side thought: what ever happened to larger plot from Razor? Particularly, the band of old model Cylons that is implied to still be floating around.

Davinleeds

01-17-09, 01:08 PM

I love this show. I wish I had Sci-Fi HD.

Me too. So I usually download from Xbox marketplace to watch it in HD. Didn't realize it's there already. First time I checked after an episode. Will watch tonight and will try to forget all these posts. :)

petergaryr

01-17-09, 01:30 PM

...
My backup theory is almost done, too. I've been working through the notion that maybe everyone is dead, and has been dead since the attack on the colonies, and that the end role of Cylon God in the story is making them come to grips with their deaths. That one's kind of painful, though, since it would require Ron Moore stealing the and expanding the plot from The Sixth Sense >>gag<< .

Anyhoo...

Should be interesting.

I see dead Cylons?

cavalierlwt

01-17-09, 01:51 PM

Great episode, I'd almost forgotten how good the acting is on this show. I love how even the supporting cast is capable of bringing it: case in point was the actress playing Dualla. I was still shocked by her end, but at the same time you could really see the moment aboard that Raptor where she just snapped, gave up.

humdinger70

01-17-09, 02:41 PM

michaeltscott

01-17-09, 02:44 PM

Side thought: what ever happened to larger plot from Razor? Particularly, the band of old model Cylons that is implied to still be floating around.I just watched that again the other day. In Razor, Athena--while she was still being led around in shackles--examined an old-style Raider that was destroyed by Starbuck in one of Pegasus' landing bays and told them that there were references in the Cylon databases to a group of old Centurions who escaped being scrapped, which they called "Guardians". They were said to be guarding the single, original prototype Hybrid which was thought to still be alive, trying to somehow "evolve" itself. When they nuked the Basestar containing that Hybrid, that was presumably the end of that. Even if there were survivors of that attack, they'd have lost purpose with the destruction of the first Hybrid.

scanpa

01-17-09, 02:48 PM

gwsat

01-17-09, 03:19 PM

Gods, that was some frakkin’ GREAT TV last night, welcome back BSG! :) As usual, about as many questions were asked as were answered in last night’s episode but it was intriguing and consistently interesting. The performances were, as usual, outstanding. I tend to overlook from time to time what a wonderful actress Mary McDonnell is. She was particularly effective last night.

The reveal that Ellen Tigh was a Cylon confirmed a suspicion I had harbored since Season 1. Exactly what Kara Thrace is and where she came from is going to be a fertile field. That and the many other unresolved threads in the show made me understand why there are 9 more episodes to wrap things up. I hope that they will be enough.

Hmmmm I am watching the current episode (Hub) on SciFi HD on Verizon FiOS (which is usually pretty spectacular) and boy I have to say the PQ is pretty poor. I always watched on Universal HD before which was pretty good (not excellent) but much better than what I am seeing right now. Bummer... not that it will stop me.
It seems to me that Universal HD’s PQ is about as good as it gets on cable. While I agree that Sci-Fi HD’s PQ of last night’s BSG episode was not quite up to what I have come to expect from UHD, it wasn’t bad, either

ec2546

01-17-09, 03:40 PM

The auction in Pasadena is pathetic. If you walked in to that room right now - and it costs nothing to register and get in - you would have your choice of front row seats. I doubt there are 50 people there, and half of them are probably working the auction. They keep showing a table or 2 of guys (fans? collectors? dealers?) who don't look all that thrilled to be bidding. Psychologically it must be tough. They have to be wondering just how much interest there actually is in this stuff if hardly anyone bothered to show up.

Most items going for way below the estimated auction value. A few things higher, like Lee's fat-suit dress uniform from the Pegasus. :D

scanpa

01-17-09, 03:52 PM

You can look, watch and bid on the auction here:

http://www.auctionnetwork.com/

thejokell

01-17-09, 04:09 PM

You can look, watch and bid on the auction here:

http://www.auctionnetwork.com/

Wow, the place is completely empty.

pappy97

01-17-09, 04:16 PM

ec2546

01-17-09, 04:18 PM

Thank you for posting the link. I should have put that in my post. Careless on my part.

They'll probably make some money, but my gut tells me the way it's going down is a casualty of the recession. There are a handful of items I would absolutely love to have.

pappy97

01-17-09, 04:20 PM

The original hybrid was right: Starbuck did lead the human race to its destruction. By bringing them to Earth, an Earth that is uninhabitable, she single-handedly killed the hopes and dreams of the surviving human race.

pappy97

01-17-09, 04:21 PM

The coolest reveal was finding out that we are all cylons.

Where did you get that from last night's ep? I get that the 13th tribe of Kobol that went to Earth was cylon, but does that necessarily mean that all humans are cylons (or descended from cylons)?

theelviscerator

01-17-09, 04:34 PM

then the whole premise is dumb.

If all the humans are cylons, why are the cylons attacking themselves for the last 4 years?

mpalmieri1203

01-17-09, 04:38 PM

Were you right?

No, but the show's not over yet!

ec2546

01-17-09, 04:56 PM

There's the possibility that the mechanical toaster Cylons invented by the Colonies went off after the first Cylon war and had a vger-like encounter with their ancestors. Maybe they got the skinjob tech from them. Or maybe those ancestral Cylons hit up the Colonial Cylons with the telencephalic inhibitors almost immediately, re-enslaving them for... what? revenge?

I think we're going to find out more about the true nature of the Lords of Kobol. A race of Cylons thousands of years old would have, you'd think, better data storage ability than the humans, who rely on old and tattered sacred scrolls serving as their historical documents.

petergaryr

01-17-09, 04:58 PM

Arative

01-17-09, 05:11 PM

What was TOTALLY ignored in this premiere, which better be explored in upcoming episodes, is how there is a "Six" (Tricia Helfer) that is pregnant with Col. Tigh's baby. Everyone remembers that, right? I mean, that is BIG. We are talking about a child between a regular cylon and a final 5 cylon.

That HAS to fit in all of this somehow.

Well if the 13th tribe is cylon and the 12 tribes were humans and this has all happened before and will all happen again. Then the half-breeds will form the basis of the new human race of the 12 tribes and the purebred cylon will form the 13th tribe. Eventually they'll all forget their history, split and kill each other again maybe?

ec2546

01-17-09, 05:45 PM

I'm finding the auction fascinating. Ahead of the event they suggested if you wanted something "low cost" you should focus on the artist's concept sketches and drawings. Most of those sold for 2 or 3 times what the estimated price was. Now uniforms and other costumes are going for less than half of the estimated prices! $1,000 for Doc Cottle's sickbay outfit. Duck's entire New Caprica Police uniform went for $500 as opposed to the $2,000 they estimated.

I guess they are "bargains" :eek: There are definitely less than 20 people actually in the auction room. The "red dress" should be up in the next half hour or so.

moob

01-17-09, 05:49 PM

What was TOTALLY ignored in this premiere, which better be explored in upcoming episodes, is how there is a "Six" (Tricia Helfer) that is pregnant with Col. Tigh's baby. Everyone remembers that, right? I mean, that is BIG. We are talking about a child between a regular cylon and a final 5 cylon.

That HAS to fit in all of this somehow.
Check back a few pages. There was another Q&A with Moore where he basically says all of the big question we have will be answered.

Here: Q: Tigh and Six's baby, and whether that means Cylons can breed?

Moore: Yes. That's not a "yes" to whether they can breed -- the question will be answered.

And after rewatching this episode, it ranks up there as one of my favourites. The way Dee died...that's just something you won't see anywhere else.

DaveFi

01-17-09, 05:57 PM

The coolest reveal was finding out that we are all cylons.This is not a new idea in sci-fi, and is an excellent point brought up by the writers, especially during a time when we will have an African American President and the minority ethnic population in the US will soon outnumber the previous anglo majority of the last 3 centuries.

If you read Frank Herbert's Dune series, the Fremen, who inhabit the deserts of the planet Arakis, are the direct descendants of the mix of Earth groups of Middle Eastern and Asia, etc. This is the way things are going. In 50-100yrs the lines will divide us even less and more and more of us will look the same.

So, the idea that we all stemed from the same source is not new, it's just Adam and Eve retold (but in this case, maybe with a little genetic enginering or extra-terristrial help), but it is sci-fi afterall.;)

Steve Scherrer

01-17-09, 06:33 PM

The line of reasoning works if Earth was inhabited by cylons (and only cylons) and we are their descendants.

Thing is, humans had to have come from somewhere, and that somewhere probably isn't the Earth we just saw.

A while back, my theory was that Earth was actually homeworld. We went to the stars and landed on first on Kobol. Somewhere along the way, humans decided that helper machines would be useful (anybody take a look lately at how far Honda's Asimo has come?) and out pop the cylons.

Then, all the "stuff" happened on Kobol with 12 tribes of humans heading to the colonies, and 1 going back "home" to Earth (while leaving markers along the way). Something goes sour on Earth and the Cylons and humans nuke one another with only 5 Cylons left who somehow have figured out a way to be "reborn". They head back, design 7 new models, decide that humans need to go away and we have Cylon War I.

Then....well, all the rest happens with Cylon War II.

I liked the theory, but now it seems to have crumbled. So, I guess the premise of the original series sticks with, "there are those who believe that life here began out there". The thing is, where does our present history timeline fit into this universe (or, as I suggested in an earlier post---maybe it just doesn't---and this is a universe unto itself)?

Well, 9 episodes to sort it out. On the bright side, there's are no Dr. Zee or Super Scouts in sight ;)

I think your theory can be salvaged - somewhere along the way the original cylons, of which the final five are representatives, developed. Whether they were skinjob cylons that left Kobol (possibly) or skinjobs that developed from metal cylons that were created by the 13th tribe, it appears that earth, at some point, is populated by skinjob cylons that are nuked by an unknown adversary. If they were skinjobs that left kobol - this could be the reason for the disagreement that split the 13 tribes. Or - there was some other disagreement that made them go on their own way, and they got to earth as humans, but somehow earth became populated by the skinjobs. I still think the humans of tribe 13 figured out a way to immortalize themselves by creating the technology to reproduce their bodies as cylons so their conciousnesses could be downloaded. Perhaps this caused a rift in the 13th tribe and the nuke attack were pure humans who saw the cylon humans as an abomination because they were machines, not truly human. The 5 were the only surviving members, and having nothing left, they try to find the 12 colonies to "reunite" or to wipe them out.

DaveFi

01-17-09, 06:41 PM

The myth of the "Lost Tribe" has been passed down in many different cultures. Once again, if you haven't I highly encourage people to read Dune - I think the writers of BG are borrowing heavily from it (or are at least big fans, and that's coming through here).

thejokell

01-17-09, 07:04 PM

Six's red dress sold for $13,000! :eek:

ragtop13

01-17-09, 07:09 PM

$13,000 for Six's red dress!?!?!?!:eek: Did six come with it??? :rolleyes:

pappy97

01-17-09, 07:13 PM

This is not a new idea in sci-fi, and is an excellent point brought up by the writers, especially during a time when we will have an African American President and the minority ethnic population in the US will soon outnumber the previous anglo majority of the last 3 centuries.

If you read Frank Herbert's Dune series, the Fremen, who inhabit the deserts of the planet Arakis, are the direct descendants of the mix of Earth groups of Middle Eastern and Asia, etc. This is the way things are going. In 50-100yrs the lines will divide us even less and more and more of us will look the same.

So, the idea that we all stemed from the same source is not new, it's just Adam and Eve retold (but in this case, maybe with a little genetic enginering or extra-terristrial help), but it is sci-fi afterall.;)

I still don't get where in the ep they said all humans are cylons.

Is it being suggested that 13 tribes of Kobol are ancient Cylon? And that 1 went to Earth while the others went to Caprica, and that humans are descended from those ancient cylons.

Then those humans created new cylons, who rebelled, evolved, and started wars with humans, only to now find out that everyone is related?

Where did you get that from the ep? I get that the 13th tribe of Kobol was Cylon, but where do you get that the other 12 were not human?

scowl

01-17-09, 07:53 PM

just SFX, one shot you could still see the blurred out section of his leg.
Yes, it was just like what they did with Gary Sinise's legs in Forrest Gump. Ten years later it's even easier to do.

humdinger70

01-17-09, 08:04 PM

Yes, it was just like what they did with Gary Sinise's legs in Forrest Gump. Ten years later it's even easier to do.

Or Michael Ironside's arm in Starship Troopers. That's where I thought it could be SFX - Michael has two good working arms. Suspension of belief when Michael's left stump of an arm touched Denise Richards in the classroom scene.

The reason I asked the original question was the scene in the officers quarters with Gaeta and Dee, right before she kills herself. It begins with Gaeta, in a close up, putting on a covering over the stump of his right leg before he attaches the artificial leg.

Sorry, it just looked real. Amazing! :D:D

DaveFi

01-17-09, 08:05 PM

Where did you get that from the ep? I get that the 13th tribe of Kobol was Cylon, but where do you get that the other 12 were not human?There is no real answer here, and I doubt we will get one before the series ends. What this series has always been about was trying to parallel the doubt and fear surrounding the "War on Terrorism" and "9/11" and just who the "others/outsiders" are. As the years go on, the lines thin and the answers just don't seem as important.

Hopefully if there is a prequel we might gain more solid insight as to who the progenitors of the Human and Cylon race are (if there is a difference).

petergaryr

01-17-09, 08:08 PM

"The Cylons were created by Man"
"They evolved"
"They rebelled"

At some point, we have to start with just humans and no Cylons (on Earth, on Kobol, somewhere).

After all these years of watching the show, maybe some else's memory is better than mine: is the premise that the original Cylons were the Centurion models that were originally featured in the 1977 series? These are the ones that rebelled?

If so, and that's a big if, that model didn't appear to have the smarts to design a humanoid model. I know (from what I've read) the premise of Caprica is to show the origins of the Cylons---so eventually that question will be answered. The humanoid models are so much more sophisticated than the pure metal ones.

The question that keeps popping up for me is, what does it mean to be human? With advances in prosthetics, we could eventually get to the point where we start replacing major parts. Not to mix universes, but Anakin Skywalker had a lot of work done on him and old Darth would up being more machine than man. Yet, at the end, Ani was still in there.

So, if we get to the point where we can construct a brain based on silica, and find a way to "upload" what we have in a carbon based brain, are we still human?

What if we can construct a carbon based brain instead of silica and put that in a constructed flesh body, "upload" the consciousness of say someone named Kara Thrace, does that make the "new" Kara any less a person than the "old" Kara?

I recently was running out of space and bought a new 500 gb hard drive. It came with a fairly simple cloning software that has the ability to take the full contents of the old drive, partitions and all, and transfer the whole mess to the new drive.

As far as the PC is concerned, it has the same operating system, the same programs, the same partitions...but suddenly there is a lot more storage space. The PC is now the same, but different, yet somehow still the same.

sirjonsnow

01-17-09, 08:12 PM

Obviously the BSG humans and cylons ARE different, otherwise studying the bones on Earth they wouldn't have discovered the remains are cylons.

Earth residents - cylon mix
Kobol/colonies - humans

And besides any possible Tigh/Six baby, why has everyone in the show completely ignored the fact that the Chief's baby is also half-cylon? I've been thinking that baby and Boomer's will be the Adam/Eve ever since we learned the Chief is a cylon.

GrouchoDude

01-17-09, 08:35 PM

So, if we get to the point where we can construct a brain based on silica, and find a way to "upload" what we have in a carbon based brain, are we still human?

What if we can construct a carbon based brain instead of silica and put that in a constructed flesh body, "upload" the consciousness of say someone named Kara Thrace, does that make the "new" Kara any less a person than the "old" Kara?

And therein may lie the answer to the mystery of Kara Thrace. She dove into a gas giant whose gravitational field somehow holds open a permanent wormhole leading to Earth. The Cylons know about it. And they were somehow able to grab her consciousness and download it into a new Kara, same as the old Kara, while she and her Viper went splat.

Nah, I don't buy it either. :p And it doesn't account for the brand new Viper branded with the same numbers as her old one. That Viper's a tough one. Those crafty writers; what do they have in mind for that?

ec2546

01-17-09, 08:35 PM

At the auction they figured the Raptor would go for between 30 and 60 grand. Highest bid: 25,000. Didn't meet the reserve so it went unsold.

The viper didn't go either.

MeowMeow

01-17-09, 08:47 PM

I just watched that again the other day. In Razor, Athena--while she was still being led around in shackles--examined an old-style Raider that was destroyed by Starbuck in one of Pegasus' landing bays and told them that there were references in the Cylon databases to a group of old Centurions who escaped being scrapped, which they called "Guardians". They were said to be guarding the single, original prototype Hybrid which was thought to still be alive, trying to somehow "evolve" itself. When they nuked the Basestar containing that Hybrid, that was presumably the end of that. Even if there were survivors of that attack, they'd have lost purpose with the destruction of the first Hybrid.

Fair enough I guess. So we can just toss everything from Razor, because nothing that material to the running plot wasn't already explored in a later episode.

Disappointing. I was hoping to see the old school Cylons. Especially after watching the Starbuck funeral pyre, I thought it would be fun to go from Star Wars homage to the old school show's strong preference for ripoff.

I know BSG isn't really all that big on symbolism most of the time, but does anyone else take Starbuck's funeral pyre to be a classic symbol of rebirth? That she's beyond that gray cloud that always rained on her?

I thought that's what I liked about this episode the most: so much symbolism. The episode was surprisingly literate for a show that's often ham handed (for example, the reasoning of most character actions is either "They were horny", "They were drunk" or "They were drunk AND horny").

Now the The River has been there as symbolism since the middle of the first half of Season 4. And that's gotta mean something, right? Especially since we came back to it again, hard this time with Saul and Bill.

And final thought: I could have done without their short descent into Lord of the Flies on the ship. This is a military vessel. They have to know how to cope with hard news. The whole place wouldn't just turn into Bartertown overnight.

GrouchoDude

01-17-09, 08:50 PM

And besides any possible Tigh/Six baby, why has everyone in the show completely ignored the fact that the Chief's baby is also half-cylon? I've been thinking that baby and Boomer's will be the Adam/Eve ever since we learned the Chief is a cylon.

Maybe the Final Five are able to get preggers with humans or Cylons. That's what makes them special; they're a wild card. And any offspring share the same trait. The reason Hera is so important is that she's the beginning of a new cycle. Same with Chief's baby with Callie. Perhaps the Final Five have residual memories implanted (we've seen evidence of that) that go all the way back to the last cycle, so they intuitively know how this thing all works. But that premise leads me straight to Helo as being the Fifth, since he was able to knock up Sharon, an "ordinary" skin job. There has to be something special about Helo, right? Along with Six, he didn't make an appearance in this episode, I don't think.

So, if we take that as a premise, then Tigh was wrong about Ellen being the Fifth, and we have another reveal to come. Oh, who am I kidding? We've probably got another dozen huge reveals to come, at least. Better stock up on more Prozac. :p

DaveFi

01-17-09, 09:07 PM

As I said earlier, I have a feeling the series is going to conclude with a lot more questions than we have answers.

pyro530

01-17-09, 10:03 PM

Maybe the Final Five are able to get preggers with humans or Cylons. That's what makes them special; they're a wild card. And any offspring share the same trait. The reason Hera is so important is that she's the beginning of a new cycle. Same with Chief's baby with Callie. Perhaps the Final Five have residual memories implanted (we've seen evidence of that) that go all the way back to the last cycle, so they intuitively know how this thing all works. But that premise leads me straight to Helo as being the Fifth, since he was able to knock up Sharon, an "ordinary" skin job. There has to be something special about Helo, right? Along with Six, he didn't make an appearance in this episode, I don't think.

So, if we take that as a premise, then Tigh was wrong about Ellen being the Fifth, and we have another reveal to come. Oh, who am I kidding? We've probably got another dozen huge reveals to come, at least. Better stock up on more Prozac. :p

Exactly why I think Ellen is a number 6 model, because Tigh has proven that they can age. That means one is still to be revealed.

ec2546

01-17-09, 11:13 PM

I'm liking the "downloaded Kara" idea. The Cylons wanted to partake in more human experiences, like love and having children. The other side of that coin is humans going through Cylon experiences/technology. Kara's not a cylon, she's a human that has gone through the downloading process into a new body. It freaked out Leoben, that's for sure, so if the explanation is something like that, then the significant 7 don't have a lot of insight into what happened, either. Maybe Cavill does.

"Lost"

01-17-09, 11:21 PM

Exactly why I think Ellen is a number 6 model, because Tigh has proven that they can age. That means one is still to be revealed.

Nice theory, I like it! Only problem is, Tigh would have recognized all the six's in the show as a spitting image of his wife? He's been banging Caprica six for some time, and he does see Helen at times as an illusion, but never has he said "dam baby its about time you were reborn in a hot new bod, that carriage was getting old"

Ryan48

01-18-09, 12:07 AM

whitestang06

01-18-09, 12:32 AM

At some point, we have to start with just humans and no Cylons (on Earth, on Kobol, somewhere).

That would be us, here and now on this world. Sometime in our indiscriminate future, this cycle begins. At this point, they would be, at the very least, 5,000 years into our future. In an interview, or podcast (I can't really remember), Moore mentioned that the indisputable reality of human evolution on Earth cannot be ignored, as it was by the original.

jebbbz

01-18-09, 02:01 AM

As I said earlier, I have a feeling the series is going to conclude with a lot more questions than we have answers.

I'm not so sure. Here we always seem to have many more answers than there are questions, six or seven times as many. Why would that change with the series ending?

humdinger70

01-18-09, 02:08 AM

"Fasten your seat belts, we're in for a bumpy night" - Bette Davis, All About Eve

That about sums it up where we are, kiddies. We are now entering uncharted waters. This whole thing is now further than BSG has ever gone, a lot further than where Glen Larson was going with the first incarnation of this show.

The original idea for both versions was simple: find Earth and the 13th tribe. The whole thing presupposed a viable Earth, a planet of milk and honey and possibly, a whole slew of hot and cold running babes and hunks.

But Ron Moore and David Eick have thrown us a curve, and what a curve! A nuked planet, now 2,000 years since it happened. Laura Roslin put it right: We traded one nuked civilization for another. And the fabled 13th tribe - Cylons after all, all of them. And Ellen Tigh was the last unknown member of the final 5?

"All this has happened before and all of it will happen again". Indeed.

Sort of looks like how the planet would look after man had been gone for that long (ala, the special on the History Channel ... or was it Discovery Channel? - betcha Glen Larson never would have thought that one up!!)

So now, we've been to Earth for, what, 2 episodes? We can't stay here - planet's too contaminated. SO WHAT HAPPENS NOW?

9 episodes to go - is there humanity out there? Are these people even human?

HDTVChallenged

01-18-09, 03:34 AM

So now, we've been to Earth for, what, 2 episodes? We can't stay here - planet's too contaminated. SO WHAT HAPPENS NOW?

LOL ... well we've been to a planet that the Colonial/Cylon alliance *thinks* is Earth, anyway.

I'm not convinced, but I'm done guessing. Just load 'em up and beam 'em on down ... :)

petergaryr

01-18-09, 05:22 AM

You guys are over thinking everything... Read these interviews.

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html

I know they could be just Fraking with us, but I don't think so....

Interesting article...but it communicates a sense that some of us have had for a while, that while there may always have been a plan for the overall story arc, major plot elements are made up along the way.

Not that it matters really, because in the end what is important is "does it work" as a story (series).

"Lost"

01-18-09, 07:53 AM

Palladin

01-18-09, 10:22 AM

I'm still in the cathartic process of coming to terms with integrating the latest plot developments and will probably give this ep at least a third
runthrough over the next day or two before adopting any firm conclusion.

But should this series eventually be diminished to nothing more than a catch-phrase in the future, I hope it will be that "Battlestar Galactica" took us to a place where mere mortals fear to tread".

________________________________________________________

Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Don H

01-18-09, 11:19 AM

:confused: What happened to all the cylons that were nuked on Earth 2000 years ago? Were they all reborned? If so where are they now? We know where 5 of them are. Did the 13th colony have a replenishment ship near by. Must have so were is it now.

Was Starbuck gone for 2000 years when she left the fleet searching for Earth? If not why did she crash? Planet was already nuked. Was she reborn? Who build the replacement Viper? Will Dee be reborn?

CPanther95

01-18-09, 11:26 AM

Was Starbuck gone for 2000 years when she left the fleet searching for Earth? If not why did she crash?

Flock of flying cockroaches?

GrouchoDude

01-18-09, 11:40 AM

Interesting article...but it communicates a sense that some of us have had for a while, that while there may always have been a plan for the overall story arc, major plot elements are made up along the way.

Not that it matters really, because in the end what is important is "does it work" as a story (series).

And it has to be that way. I think we sometimes lose sight of that. You hear a lot of stuff along the lines of "those crummy, unimaginative hacks they've got in that writing room are making all this stuff up as they go along; they're just winging it". Well, yeah. To a certain extent, they have to. But if they're good, and they see that their show will have legs, they'll figure out an endpoint early on. Or maybe they had it scoped out all along. That's got to be a real heartbreaker when the network turk comes calling.

With LOST, they said they figured out where the story was ultimately going in general terms right up front, when they had JJ's attention, and they then scripted the storylines to move them along in that direction. But it wasn't until they got to determine their end-date, with the glorious feeling of knowing they're essentially cancellation-proof if they don't blow it, that they were able to fine-tune their wrap-up down to the single episode. If a successful show gets that opportunity, they can usually craft a successful endgame. I think that's going to happen here as well. These guys are, uh, pretty smart.

petergaryr

01-18-09, 02:18 PM

Oh yeah, I'll grant them that (and the writers of Lost). A clever bunch of folks they are. Both of these shows have managed to come up with a mythology that has held my attention for many years.

As others have said, I am going to miss both of these series when they end...but better they do it with dignity and a planned conclusion rather than the way some shows limp on years after they have run out of creativity.

AAF

01-18-09, 02:18 PM

Seems like only yesterday the gang was running around a 'freshly nuked' planet.

I wouldn't waste a lot of time trying to balance all that's happened with how the show ends. There will still be a lot of crap up on the wall that all the writers were throwing at.

thejokell

01-18-09, 02:41 PM

...but better they do it with dignity and a planned conclusion rather than the way some shows limp on years after they have run out of creativity.

Kinda like Lost? ;)

BSG has definitely had some low points (mostly during season 3), but overall I think it has been a very well done series and I'm glad they're wrapping it up when they are.

Brian Conrad

01-18-09, 03:39 PM

I recently picked up the Season One HD-DVD at Fry's cheap and staeted watching last night the first (or mini-series) episode with the commentary. They do indeed create a lot of this ad hoc with a general idea of where they want to go. Rather than guessing one should at least rent the DVDs and find out the behind the scenes info. It is very much worth a listen.

pappy97

01-18-09, 03:47 PM

I'm not so sure. Here we always seem to have many more answers than there are questions, six or seven times as many. Why would that change with the series ending?

Also, lots of questions will likely be answered in the Caprica series and the BSG TV movie that will follow the series.

GrouchoDude

01-18-09, 03:50 PM

Kinda like Lost? ;)

No, I think LOST has been remarkable in how they've managed to create an expanding and encompassing mythology that does a pretty good job of making us think they had it all figured out from the beginning. Ditto BSG. They've done a superb job of keeping more and more balls juggling up in the air; now it's time for them to pluck them back out in a way that all makes sense.

Palladin

01-18-09, 07:08 PM

No, I think LOST has been remarkable in how they've managed to create an expanding and encompassing mythology that does a pretty good job of making us think they had it all figured out from the beginning. Ditto BSG. They've done a superb job of keeping more and more balls juggling up in the air; now it's time for them to pluck them back out in a way that all makes sense.

And if we are fortunate, I expect both of those series to serve as the gold standard benchmark of quality entertainment, by which all future pretenders to the throne will be measured. :cool:

_________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Davinleeds

01-18-09, 07:10 PM

Spoilers
http://scifiwire.com/2009/01/dualla-speaks-about-last-nights-battlestar-episode.php
sort of.

ec2546

01-18-09, 07:19 PM

Some of us have been cognizant for a while now that the writers have been making it up as they go along. You get that from listening to the DVD commentary and the podcasts. Within a broad framework Ron Moore has allowed the story to take on a life of its own.

I laugh at the fanwankers who try to see meaning and find clues in every little plot development along the way. "Oh, that MUST mean THIS and anyone who disagrees with me is WRONG." Ha ha.

I wasn't disappointed or angry to learn that Ellen is the last of the final 5. I was much more disappointed with the first 4. Listen to Ron Moore's audio commentaries and he basically confirms they used the "dartboard technique" to choose them. There were no hints or clues leading up to the day he and the writers made their decision. But it is what it is, and that is a great storyline in the end. With the caliber of writing the show has had, in the end it doesn't really matter. BSG will go down as one of the best shows ever produced for television.

michaeltscott

01-18-09, 07:48 PM

You guys are over thinking everything... Read these interviews.

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html

I know they could be just Fraking with us, but I don't think so....
I like over thinking, thats the whole fun of it.

The interview is spoilery, don't read it, unless your into that.That interview wasn't "spoilery" in the sense that it says what's going to happen in the future, though it does confirm some things introduced in the episode that people in this thread have been conjecturing might not be as they seem :rolleyes:. So it might be considered "spoilery" in that it might put an end to speculation that the obvious isn't what it plainly seems to be, which some people in this discussion take delight in :).

jabbathespud

01-18-09, 08:05 PM

I was so disappointed. When they pulled that cylon head out of the sand, I was so hoping it would be a terminator skull.

"Lost"

01-18-09, 08:15 PM

That interview wasn't "spoilery" in the sense that it says what's going to happen in the future, though it does confirm some things introduced in the episode that people in this thread have been conjecturing might not be as they seem :rolleyes:. So it might be considered "spoilery" in that it might put an end to speculation that the obvious isn't what it plainly seems to be, which some people in this discussion take delight in :).

He did say what is going to happen, In the interview, He said (without giving to much away, then *******) to me thats a spoiler, minor but a spoiler, I stopped reading, the're to few eps left, I want to savor every last one. But I do enjoy all the speculation, and discard the obvious illogical ones, like Helen being a Six, It would be great if they could make that work, more power to Tigh one of my Favorite.

"Lost"

01-18-09, 08:27 PM

I was so disappointed. When they pulled that cylon head out of the sand, I was so hoping it would be a terminator skull.
I thought it would have been Robbi the robot. :) How about the bones did they find serial numbers stamped on the bones, like car parts? they never have said they can ID Cylon bones. Except Baltars blood test, which was somewhat a sham but it did pick out Sharon. OK is next week here yet.:)

Exist2Inspire

01-18-09, 09:01 PM

I've got a few things here, that I've been thinking of.

Okay, so Ellen is the fifth. Interesting. This brings me back to season 1 when Ellen was brought onboard by Commander Adama. Baltar did the Cylon Detector on her, and said it was false. But he also told Six that, He wouldn't tell anyone if he found a cylon ( as per what happened with Boomer, if i recall correctly).

So, that leads me to believe that Baltar knew that Ellen was the fifth cylon. And, I imagine that Baltar also knew that Tory, Col. Tigh, and Chief Tyrol were Cylons. My reasoning is that, Adama would be an idiot not to have his most important crew members check first, before anyone else, due to... obvious reasons. So, this pretty much makes Baltar's quest of finding the final five pretty damn pointless, because he knows who they are.

Secondly, here is my thought on Starbuck. She's a clone. It's the only logical explaination. She isn't a Cylon, as per the "Last Supper" picture, and Ron Moore said it wasn't Starbuck. Recall back in Season 2 (?) when she is at the farm? She woke up with a strange scar on her? She ended up thinking that it was a breeding facility... but it was a cloning facility. This way, she would appear 100% human. I have no fracking idea how she had a different viper though...

Palladin

01-18-09, 09:18 PM

Some of us have been cognizant for a while now that the writers have been making it up as they go along. You get that from listening to the DVD commentary and the podcasts. Within a broad framework Ron Moore has allowed the story to take on a life of its own.
Well, geez, I SURE hope that same group has been cognizant that that is PRECISELY what storytelling is all about, from its very earliest roots. :rolleyes:

How 'bout a quick reality check here for say, oh the last two millenium, or so. Let's see - that whole plague on the pharoah and the egyptians thing, parting of the red sea, immaculate conception, fish and loaves of bread, resurrection, etc., etc,. Were those dead-on descriptions of what took place, without say, any embellishment, or changes that took off in other directions.

And hell, that's just Judeo-Christian. What about all the various far-eastern and mid-eastern variations of similar concepts? How 'bout those caves at Altamira? Was those pictures exactly what the very first ORIGINAL Cavemen had contemplated creating? Folklore is, and always has been, a rather flexible interpretation of the truth made up of various contributions. Why exactly should RDM et al., be singled out to be held to some artificially alternative standard?

_____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

moob

01-18-09, 09:25 PM

Why exactly should RDM et al., be singled out to be held to some artificially alternative standard?

Because the haters need something/someone to hate.

Lawguy

01-19-09, 09:21 AM

sirjonsnow

01-19-09, 09:38 AM

I've got a few things here, that I've been thinking of.

Okay, so Ellen is the fifth. Interesting. This brings me back to season 1 when Ellen was brought onboard by Commander Adama. Baltar did the Cylon Detector on her, and said it was false. But he also told Six that, He wouldn't tell anyone if he found a cylon ( as per what happened with Boomer, if i recall correctly).

So, that leads me to believe that Baltar knew that Ellen was the fifth cylon. And, I imagine that Baltar also knew that Tory, Col. Tigh, and Chief Tyrol were Cylons. My reasoning is that, Adama would be an idiot not to have his most important crew members check first, before anyone else, due to... obvious reasons. So, this pretty much makes Baltar's quest of finding the final five pretty damn pointless, because he knows who they are.

No.

Baltar did the tests but didn't check the results. There was the big scene in Baltar's lab where finally they decided to stop the tests and destroy all the samples, without seeing the results of tests already done. Baltar never knew of any Cylons from the tests except for Boomer.

eta - I don't remember about Ellen, if he said she wasn't a Cylon or if her results were supposed to be part of the big blowup in Baltar's office. I do know she was there with them in the office for that. If Baltar had previously told Adama she was not a Cylon, he could have been lying or just lying about even finishing her test. However, he wouldn't have known about any of the others.

GrouchoDude

01-19-09, 09:57 AM

I hate to say this but major elements of the story just seem to be almost preposterous and I question how they can all be logically tied together.

Is this science fiction or fantasy?

I hate to say it but not of this even remotely can make sense.

It's allegory dressed up as science fiction. Of course they need a few magic mcguffins to keep the story going. But it's all in service to the story and never driving it. Remember, it was only a few years ago that your fancy HDTV and your trusty MacBook were magic mcguffins. The whole premise of a small remnant of humanity fleeing for their lives from creatures they themselves created is a little on the fantastic side, I'd say. But it's all plausible within this particular world they created in service to the tale they're telling. Isn't that basically what any work of fiction, let alone science fiction, does? If it's pure practical science you want, you've got the Discovery Channel.

petergaryr

01-19-09, 10:07 AM

It might be better if we just re-named the genre "Fiction Science" rather than "Science Fiction".

In Fiction Science, you make up a universe that allows for things such as time travel, self aware machines, FTL drives, the sound of engines or explosions in the vacuum of space, or anything else the writer fancies. In the best of these stories, the writer creates a set of rules that are at least consistent with the concept of the universe s/he has created.

Sometimes it feels as if people get wrapped around the axel trying to apply real world scientific principles to what is, essentially, a fantasy world. It is never going to reconcile. I know because the last time I time warped, I asked my future self that question and I told me so.

michaeltscott

01-19-09, 11:26 AM

eta - I don't remember about Ellen, if he said she wasn't a Cylon or if her results were supposed to be part of the big blowup in Baltar's office. I do know she was there with them in the office for that. If Baltar had previously told Adama she was not a Cylon, he could have been lying or just lying about even finishing her test. However, he wouldn't have known about any of the others.I found a (really poor quality, dialog-only) transcript of the episode (Season 1, Episode 9, "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down"). Here's the dialog from the final scene:
Baltar - Green. Green, everyone. Mrs. Tigh is definitely human.
Adama - No hard feelings I hope, Ellen.
Ellen - I completely understand. But let's be sure and test you next.
Baltar - Doctor? My pleasure. My job.
Ellen - You don't wanna frak with me, Bill. Try to remember that.
Adama - Don't frak with me either, Ellen.
#6 - If only they knew that everyone passes these days.
Baltar - Well, it's so much simpler that way. No muss, no fuss.
#6 - So... what did her test really say?
Baltar - I'll never tell.(I'd guess that the line "Baltar - Doctor? My pleasure. My job." was actually "Adama - Doctor?/Baltar - My pleasure. My job.") In any case, that's about how I remember it and it left open the possibility that Ellen was a Cylon.

dfergie

01-19-09, 11:40 AM

Everyone seems to forget that the Final Five are a different breed of cylons... Baltar's detector (even if it actually did work) would likely miss them...

Steve Scherrer

01-19-09, 12:12 PM

I hate to say this but major elements of the story just seem to be almost preposterous and I question how they can all be logically tied together.

Cylons are machines that were created by humans as a recent development in the series' story line. More recently, the Cylons came up with new model "skin jobs." Only, it turns out that Cylons have been around for thousands of years (both in their mechanical and skin job form). [Side note - how can one creature that is mechanical (metal Cylons) even be considered to be related to the flesh and blood skin jobs?] Even more, the lost tribe of Kobol is actually a Cylon tribe. To top it off, some Cylons die and get rebore as their old selves.

Is this science fiction or fantasy?

I hate to say it but not of this even remotely can make sense.

Also, the last episode just seemed to be driven by one premise: let's be as dramatic as possible. This is kind of hack writing, I am sad to say.

I am confused - what these episodes seem to tell ME, is that this whole notion of cylons being of recent construction by the Capricans is not correct, and that this "relationship" between "real" life and artificial life goes back a lot longer than anyone seems to realize on the show. The only explanation is that the human's explanations, or the way they see their universe is false. There is something a lot larger going on here.

I, for one, do not really think the metal cylons and the skinjobs are related at all. I still think that the original cylons (13th tribe) were humans that made themselves mechanical by creating technology to download their "selves" into new organic/mechanical bodies. This could have created the original conflict between "mechanical" humans and "real" humans. The skinjobs are benefactors of this technology, but implemented by the metal cylons 2000 years later. That is why there are two fundamentally different types of cylons.

Now, why there is no "model no. 7" (after all, the skinjob models go 1-6, 8 and the final five are simply referred to as that - no model nos.), I have no answer for. My present belief is that there was originally a different concept of how the cylons were modelled at the beginning of the series than now, and the writers hadn't concluded how they were going show all 12 models. Ron Moore eludes to this in his interview in the Chicago Tribune. I suspect they will just ignore this small fact that probably most people are not asking about anyway.

Lawguy

01-19-09, 02:25 PM

CPanther95

01-19-09, 02:33 PM

Maybe the Cylons created humans who ended up rebelling and nuking Earth. :)

petergaryr

01-19-09, 02:44 PM

That's the kind of plot twist the producers would love!

michaeltscott

01-19-09, 02:47 PM

Everyone seems to forget that the Final Five are a different breed of cylons...And yet, they're enough like other Cylons that they could tell that the people of Earth (from whom the Final Five apparently come) were Cylons by examining their ancient remains. (Note that Baltar took part in this analysis and pronouncement).

Perhaps it's time to look back at the "Prophecies of the First Hybrid" :). The First Hybrid, in Razor, proclaims:
At last, they have come for me. I feel their lives, their destinies spilling out before me. The denial of the one true path, played out on a world not their own, will end soon enough. Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening, struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. And in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one. The way forward at once unthinkable, yet inevitable. And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering. I can see them all. The seven, now six, self-described machines who believe themselves without sin. But in time, it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of one splintering into many. And then, they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an angel. Not an end, but a beginning.Some of these things seem apparent: "The denial of the one true path, played out on a world not their own, will end soon enough," seems like the whole New Caprica interlude.
"Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening, struggling with the knowledge of their true selves," would be Tyrol, Tigh, Tory and Anders.
"And in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one," is probably the blossoming of romance between Roslyn and Adama (though there are probably other things that it could refer to).
"I can see them all. The seven, now six, self-described machines who believe themselves without sin. But in time, it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of one splintering into many," would seem to describe the Cylon Civil War. One interesting thing about this statement is that this prophecy was made before the boxing of the Threes; Razor is essentially episode 15 of Season 2, whereas the Threes aren't boxed until "Rapture", episode 15 of Season 3--"the seven, now six," were still seven when the First Hybrid said that.But what of "And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering"? I believe, as implied in this last episode, that Ellen Tigh is the fifth. If so, how shall she "claw toward the light"?

The First Hybrid's final pronouncement was:
Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her.And, yet, they did (utterly inexplicably :rolleyes:) follow her. (The First Hybrid was speaking to Kendra Shaw--or at least says this in her presence--who tries to relay it to Lee Adama on Pegasus but is prevented by radio interference). Does this mean that they're doomed? Or is there some final direction that she'll try to lead them in that they must resist?

ec2546

01-19-09, 03:44 PM

I am confused - what these episodes seem to tell ME, is that this whole notion of cylons being of recent construction by the Capricans is not correct, and that this "relationship" between "real" life and artificial life goes back a lot longer than anyone seems to realize on the show.
It seems to be saying that given enough time, humans will progress technologically and build humanoid robots to serve them. Then it all goes to hell in a handbasket. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I think the biggest disconnect with respect to plausible (but fictional) science in BSG is the cylons' failure to control genetics. They've constructed a vast wireless network in space that connects a fleet of resurrection ships with a hub. It allows conscious memories and personalities to flow across interstellar distances. They create skinjobs that have the same plumbing as humans and are almost indistinguishable from the real thing. But we're supposed to believe they can't make DNA "work". The reproductive aspects should be the easiest part to get right. Science can almost completely control DNA right now, but we really understand very little about consciousness.

Suspending disbelief for that aspect is harder for me than accepting FTL and artificial gravity. We're conditioned to accept those because they're used almost universally in contemporary scifi. You could argue that a show depicting the reality of weightlessness in space wouldn't even be interesting, for obvious reasons.

The bottom line is it's all fictional and you just have to enjoy the story for what it is.

PainterPaul

01-19-09, 05:04 PM

rezzy

01-19-09, 08:46 PM

Just watched 'Notion and have to say, I'm still on board, implausibilities and all. I don't think they've jumped ship yet, and hoping they won't.

The First Hybrid's final pronouncement was:
And, yet, they did (utterly inexplicably :rolleyes:) follow her. (The First Hybrid was speaking to Kendra Shaw--or at least says this in her presence--who tries to relay it to Lee Adama on Pegasus but is prevented by radio interference). Does this mean that they're doomed? Or is there some final direction that she'll try to lead them in that they must resist?How could the 'old man' forget what that creepy 'cyber-skin-job' told him years prior?

Steve Scherrer

01-19-09, 10:06 PM

And yet, they're enough like other Cylons that they could tell that the people of Earth (from whom the Final Five apparently come) were Cylons by examining their ancient remains. (Note that Baltar took part in this analysis and pronouncement).

Perhaps it's time to look back at the "Prophecies of the First Hybrid" :). The First Hybrid, in Razor, proclaims:
Some of these things seem apparent: "The denial of the one true path, played out on a world not their own, will end soon enough," seems like the whole New Caprica interlude.
"Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening, struggling with the knowledge of their true selves," would be Tyrol, Tigh, Tory and Anders.
"And in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one," is probably the blossoming of romance between Roslyn and Adama (though there are probably other things that it could refer to).
"I can see them all. The seven, now six, self-described machines who believe themselves without sin. But in time, it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of one splintering into many," would seem to describe the Cylon Civil War. One interesting thing about this statement is that this prophecy was made before the boxing of the Threes; Razor is essentially episode 15 of Season 2, whereas the Threes aren't boxed until "Rapture", episode 15 of Season 3--"the seven, now six," were still seven when the First Hybrid said that.But what of "And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering"? I believe, as implied in this last episode, that Ellen Tigh is the fifth. If so, how shall she "claw toward the light"?

The First Hybrid's final pronouncement was:

Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her.

And, yet, they did (utterly inexplicably :rolleyes:) follow her. (The First Hybrid was speaking to Kendra Shaw--or at least says this in her presence--who tries to relay it to Lee Adama on Pegasus but is prevented by radio interference). Does this mean that they're doomed? Or is there some final direction that she'll try to lead them in that they must resist?

The funny thing about prophecies - they usually can be construed in multiple ways, and the way one may be fulfilled may be completely different than what is expected. I have always thought that the one about Kara Thrace doesn't mean the destruction of the human race. This could mean something entirely different. I could construe this to mean that Kara will lead the human race to the end of its journey. She is herald of the apocalypse (to the cylons), the harbinger of death (to the cylons). They must not follow her (or the cylons are doomed). See how this prophecy still makes sense, but has a completely different spin that what one would first suppose? And if the hybrid is saying it, it makes more sense that it is bad for the cylons if humans follow Kara.

SO - in essence - I don't put much stock in what the prophecies are saying for this very reason. Likely, the writers are trying to set up some red herrings.

michaeltscott

01-19-09, 10:30 PM

SO - in essence - I don't put much stock in what the prophecies are saying for this very reason. Likely, the writers are trying to set up some red herrings.Possibly, though I'm not sure how "likely". I've had similar thoughts, though. From a post I made to this thread in June:
Word for word, what the Hybrid said in "Faith" was:"Thus will it come to pass.
The dying leader will know the truth of the Opera House.
The missing three will give you the five,
who have come from the home of the 13th.
You are the Harbinger of Death, Kara Thrace.
You will lead them all to their end.
End of line."Define "them all" and "their end" and we might know something :). Since the rest of the diatribe is about "the dying lead", "the missing three" and "the five", it could well be only those people whom she will lead to "their end". When dealing with predictions by oracles, one must take care to avoid wrong assumptions--typically, they want to be misinterpreted.(Personally, I think that the Hybrid in "Faith" should have said, "You are the Harbinger of Death, o' thing which closely resembles the dead Kara Thrace," but perhaps that would have been too telling :D). Still, it's fun to speculate on the meaning of prophecies, as long as you don't let yourself commit to any specific interpretation.

Steve Scherrer

01-19-09, 10:54 PM

This explanation asks you to accept that all of the presently existing Cylons are mistaken about their origins, particularly the origins of the the skinjobs (who heretofore had presumably only been in existence for perhaps a few years or more). So, all of the metal Cylons who presumably created the skinjobs (and the skinjobs themselves) are mistaken about events that have only so recently occurred and certainly would have taken place during the life times of presently existing Cylons.

This seems implausible.

Well, we already know that the seven are not allowed to talk about the final five (aren't they forbidden to even think about them?) So there already seems to be some kind of subterfuge going on within the ranks of the cylons. I wouldn't find it hard to believe if it came out that the cylons didn't really know how they were created. After all, only Cavil seems to know much about the deep background of the cylons. Although, I believe in one episode, a 6 is talking about how flawed the 8s are because they were created with deep emotional connections.

jebbbz

01-19-09, 11:47 PM

whitestang06

01-19-09, 11:55 PM

Based on some of the stuff said earlier in S4, the seven pretty much have no clue as to who created them, but some seemed to think that it may have been the Five, or that they would have an answer. The mechanical centurions seemed to be involved in the creating of the first hybrid, though.

Lawguy

01-20-09, 07:01 AM

Well, we already know that the seven are not allowed to talk about the final five (aren't they forbidden to even think about them?) So there already seems to be some kind of subterfuge going on within the ranks of the cylons. I wouldn't find it hard to believe if it came out that the cylons didn't really know how they were created. After all, only Cavil seems to know much about the deep background of the cylons. Although, I believe in one episode, a 6 is talking about how flawed the 8s are because they were created with deep emotional connections.

It is one thing for the seven not to think about the final five. It is another entirely for them not to think about themselves and their own origins.

Steve Scherrer

01-20-09, 08:27 AM

It is one thing for the seven not to think about the final five. It is another entirely for them not to think about themselves and their own origins.

The previous two posts summed it up much better than I. But that is what I was driving at - the seven don't seem to know about their origins. But they do seemed pretty convinced the final five might give them some answers.

Incidentally, I rewatched the episode and what struck me is how they pretty much discounted the "cycle" theory of the cylons on earth - "The humans made machines that rose up against their former masters..." (During the discussion with Baltar around the table). Not saying there couldn't be more to the story, and at some point in the past the cylons rose up against humans, somehow got integrated into society, then split off as the 13th tribe? I don't think that is what happened.

But this leads me to question what a cylon even is? Are they simply talking about artificial life? What is with the "different" centurion helmet in the sand? If the humans on Caprica made the centurions later on, how could the be so similar to the centurions on earth?

Lawguy

01-20-09, 08:55 AM

The previous two posts summed it up much better than I. But that is what I was driving at - the seven don't seem to know about their origins. But they do seemed pretty convinced the final five might give them some answers.

I can't disprove the idea that the Cylons don't know about their origins because I can point to no evidence either proving or disproving it. I am pretty sure that there is discussion among the Cylons early on in the series (perhaps the mini series) where Cylons do discuss it. Perhaps I am wrong.

The whole "the Cylons evolved' idea is announced at the beginning of every episode, so I suppose that I didn't even question it.

JimP

01-20-09, 09:05 AM

Do we know for sure that the toasters created the skinjobs? My recollection is hazy but to the humans they just showed up and humans assumed the toasters must have created them. Have any of the seven stated they believed they were products of the mechanical Cylons? Credibly? The seven, save for perhaps Cavil, don't know much about the final five so perhaps their understanding of their own roots is incorrect.

You make a good point. How likely is it that the Centurian models created the skinjobs? Not very likely. Even in the Razor episode, its not confirmed who were conducting the experiments.

I bet what we're going to find out is that the humans created the first generation skin jobs to extend their life but in doing so, lost the ability to reproduce. When the neuclear blast hit, some had found a way to upload their consciousness. Not sure why they would be trying to kill humans as they need them to reproduce.

GrouchoDude

01-20-09, 09:12 AM

I think it's pretty clear that the Brother Cavel's (# 1) are something special, and not just because of Dean Stockwell's formidable acting skills. That model knows more about this strange historical cycle than the rest. When one of the 3's (Deanna) started getting curious herself, he sort of took it upon himself to act as judge, jury, and executioner when deciding to "box" her, maintaining his virtual monopoly on this kind of knowledge. The rest of the models in his "coalition of the willing", if you will, just seem to follow his lead. He's also more militant than the rest. Perhaps the 1's and the 6's, who have emerged as the "leaders" in this supposed society of equals, both want to break this endless cycle, get off this repeating merry-go-round. They just have different ideas on how to go about it.

MeatChicken

01-20-09, 12:05 PM

"Thus will it come to pass.
The dying leader will know the truth of the Opera House.
The missing three will give you the five,
who have come from the home of the 13th.
You are the Harbinger of Death, Kara Thrace.
You will lead them all to their end.
End of line."

So the "5" have come from the home of the 13th ... apparently/possibly meaning NOT the rest of the cylons ...

Here's some random things/thoughts/vague possibilities to bounce around ...:

* The 13th tribe of Cobol may have been the "original" race, with genetic markers that make Adama's group think they are "Cylon" .. Humans could have (historically) been the genetic offshoots ...

* The original series had a mysterious "exhaulted leader" of the Cylons, that no one saw, & the "ship of light" that brought back the "dead" ... Perhaps these are connected to each other, to earth & to the glowing beings D'anna saw, in this series, & we will yet see these ....

* We don't know how long Kara's body was rotting on the planet, but based on the fact that it's skin/hair was more intact than skeletons, & the "battery" was weak but still functioning, leads one to ASSume it was much closer to "now" than 2,000yrs ago ...

* Perhaps the "current" Robot cylon technology was "in tune" with/taken over by some ancient earth "rebirth" probe ,that the metals came across in deep space, which caused a "re-programming" of them, to persue creating their hybrids & genetic based ships/tech & the war .. when the cylons were away in deep space, they were being controlled by some sort of Earth based entity or technology ....

* We don't know who nuked Earth, or why .. it may have been "humans", themselves, Metal cylons or something yet unknown ..

* Does all this in any way tie directly into Baltar getting hit full force by the nuclear blast in episode 1 & apparently "living", & will that ever be explained ...

* Is Dirk Benedict the exhaulted ruler of the Cylons that only Cavil knows about?

SSpectre

01-20-09, 01:06 PM

Do we know for sure that the toasters created the skinjobs? My recollection is hazy but to the humans they just showed up and humans assumed the toasters must have created them. Have any of the seven stated they believed they were products of the mechanical Cylons? Credibly? The seven, save for perhaps Cavil, don't know much about the final five so perhaps their understanding of their own roots is incorrect.

No, we don't know the origins of the seven. What we do know is that about 52 years prior to the start of the miniseries, the Cylon war began. 40 years prior to the miniseries, an armistice was declared and the Cylons left the colonies. All Cylons at this point were mechanical.

We also don't truly know how smart the Centurions are. They have those telencephalic inhibitors restricting their higher functions. Perhaps the Centurions did create the humanoid Cylons, and the humanoids overtook the Centurions. However, that's a lot to have happen in 40 years.

MeatChicken

01-20-09, 01:57 PM

.... Have Ellen, Tigh & the others been reborn hundreds of times over 2,000 years of colony history.. is this what Ellen meant by being reborn many times, & were they "switched on" w/ a mission in these past lives .....

... Will the Galactica somehow yet be the one responsible for nuking Earth in the past ...

... Will Kara discover the ship of light, & on the ship sits Christian, father of Jack on "Lost" ....

HDMe2

01-20-09, 02:29 PM

One thing about prophecies... is you assume they are written with an intent to accurately describe what has gone before and predict future outcomes.

What if the prophecies themselves are intentionally misleading.

Consider... Instead of the 13 colonies going their separate ways (12 one way, 1 the other to Earth)... perhaps it was the original 12 colonies who followed the 13th to Earth and nuked it.

This would be an interesting twist, in that it would be the cycle repeating/bouncing back and forth. 12 bombed out the 13th... then later the 12's decendants get bombed out by a new 13th of cylons... then they all come together for a time of peace... then the whole thing starts all over again.

A neverending cycle of peace, discord, betrayal, and so forth.

MeatChicken

01-20-09, 02:44 PM

Consider... Instead of the 13 colonies going their separate ways (12 one way, 1 the other to Earth)... perhaps it was the original 12 colonies who followed the 13th to Earth and nuked it..

Is there a known time ("X" years ago) the tribes left Cobol?
This "Earth" seemed pretty well developed, Massive Cities, bridges, skyscrapers, Banks, Businesses, well developed Populations & cities apparently all over the planet ... Something that would take many hundreds, if not thousands of years, for a colony of tribe ship(s) to eventually turn it into ...
If they were nuked "2000yrs" ago, they weren't simply "followed & nuked", but nuked hundreds or thousands of years after they settled & built up Earth, meaning hundreds or thousands of years had past after they originally reached Earth, & before they were nuked .. ...

SSpectre

01-20-09, 03:41 PM

Is there a known time ("X" years ago) the tribes left Cobol?

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_%28RDM%29

According to this timeline, the 13th tribe left Kobol about 4,000 years before the Cylons return at the beginning of the miniseries. They built the Temple of Five on the alage planet on their way to earth.

Somewhere in this period someone travelled from Earth to Kobol, giving information about Earth including a map of its night sky.

The other 12 tribes leave Kobol about 2,000 years before the Cylons return. This is also about when the 13th tribe is wiped out on Earth.

Are the two related? I'm not sure there's enough information to make this determination yet.

The humans built Cylons on the colonies about 3 years before the first Cylon war. However, Cylons also already existed for at least ~3,945 years.

Hopefully, this all will be straightened out by the time the show ends.

MeatChicken

01-20-09, 04:21 PM

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_%28RDM%29
According to this timeline, the 13th tribe left Kobol about 4,000 years before the Cylons return at the beginning of the miniseries. They built the Temple of Five on the alage planet on their way to earth.

Somewhere in this period someone travelled from Earth to Kobol, giving information about Earth including a map of its night sky.

The other 12 tribes leave Kobol about 2,000 years before the Cylons return. This is also about when the 13th tribe is wiped out on Earth.

Are the two related? I'm not sure there's enough information to make this determination yet.

The humans built Cylons on the colonies about 3 years before the first Cylon war. However, Cylons also already existed for at least ~3,945 years.
Hopefully, this all will be straightened out by the time the show ends.
OK, so the "13th" tribe actually left Kobol for Earth a couple of thousand years before the other 12 .. this would explain Earth being built-up so well.
It may be possible that the nuking of Earth and/or exit from Kobol, 2K yrs ago may be related & due to some sort of war between the 13th & the other 12 tribes leaving Kobol ..

One (partial incomplete) scenario is ... the Earth tribe perfected the ability to download themselves for rebirth, & created mechanized cylons, & this somehow became a threat between Earth & Kobol ... Either their tribe's DNA was always "cylon", or they somehow "became" cylon later..
Earth is nuked, Kobol is abandoned for some related reason, and only a handfull of Earthlings, either directly or "downloaded" somewhere, survived....

The remnants of the long lost earth rebirth-resserection technology/probe/people/whatever made it's way into the colonies &/or into the colonial cylons, changing the mission & purpose of the modern cylon machines.
A combination of the now centuries old original Earth missions of revenge, & rebirth of the Earth civilization, was partially programmed into these new colonial cylons, thus lead to the skinjobs, & the nuking of the colonies.

Due to missing 2,000yr old data, new cylon tech or some other reason, the skinjobs are not perfect downloads of their originals, & don't know or remember the full story...
This of course, still doesn't explain Baltar surviving a nuke blast or Kara's new white ship ...

GrouchoDude

01-20-09, 04:55 PM

[B] This of course, still doesn't explain Baltar surviving a nuke blast or Kara's new white ship ...

Ah yes, that frakkin' new ship. That's a puzzler. Lots of speculation on all the other stuff, but nobody's even tried to tackle that one yet. Hey, don't look at me. :p

sirjonsnow

01-20-09, 05:37 PM

Baltar survived a shockwave strong enough to blow out windows, that's all, he wasn't the epicenter of the blast or anything, it wasn't even strong enough to destroy the walls. However, it would have been good if we had ever had any decontamination or something for survivors that made it off planet post-attack (Baltar and the batch with him on the Raptor, Anders and his crew)

ec2546

01-20-09, 05:42 PM

I bet what we're going to find out is that the humans created the first generation skin jobs to extend their life but in doing so, lost the ability to reproduce. When the neuclear blast hit, some had found a way to upload their consciousness. Not sure why they would be trying to kill humans as they need them to reproduce.
This is a good theory. Perhaps the Final Five were meant to be their collective conscience about right and wrong, and they became "lost" to them somehow. The "something has changed" is the awakening of the Five and the realization that they shouldn't have tried to wipe out the humans. Cavil is the one who doesn't believe in "god", and he will become the holdout model that must be eliminated or boxed.

sirjonsnow

01-20-09, 06:02 PM

JimP

01-20-09, 06:42 PM

Anyone else sitting on pins and needles about what will be revealed this Friday?

Digger16309

01-20-09, 06:58 PM

Anyone else sitting on pins and needles about what will be revealed this Friday?

Since I saw the previews, no, I'm not on pins and needles, and I already don't like that one of the last few episodes is being taken up with that kind of storyline.

Palladin

01-20-09, 07:59 PM

Also, 2,000 years is a long time. Look how much the real Earth has grown in the last 2,000 years. Now, the colonies wouldn't have started out with near the population we had 2,000 years ago, but they started at a spacefaring technology level! They didn't have to worry about plagues and warfare, all they had to do was make babies and build build build.
Look, allow me to be blunt here. If there were an abundant supply of 3s, 6s, and ESPECIALLY 8's, building would be pretty far down on my list of priorities. ;)

________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

moob

01-20-09, 09:15 PM

Since I saw the previews, no, I'm not on pins and needles, and I already don't like that one of the last few episodes is being taken up with that kind of storyline.

What kind? you mean 6's kid? I hope that's not what you mean, because that's a pretty important plot point. Theonly other main thing I saw from the previews is pretty important as well.

MeowMeow

01-21-09, 12:21 AM

Another thing to remember is that Ron Moore tends to write almost stream of conscience, and with the specific goal of slaughtering sacred cows. He's almost shameless in his willingness to to just blow the story up.

And RDM also sometimes just flat-out lies in order to hide upcoming plotlines.

sirjonsnow

01-21-09, 08:44 AM

Look, allow me to be blunt here. If there were an abundant supply of 3s, 6s, and ESPECIALLY 8's, building would be pretty far down on my list of priorities. ;)

You're right, I should have said, "all they had to do was make buildings and breed breed breed."

GrouchoDude

01-21-09, 09:01 AM

Look, allow me to be blunt here. If there were an abundant supply of 3s, 6s, and ESPECIALLY 8's, building would be pretty far down on my list of priorities. ;)

Oh sure, it seems great now, but just remember what they say: for every gorgeous woman, there's some guy who's tired of having sex with her (see: Hugh Grant). :p After awhile, you'd get bored and start looking for a beam to stack on a post, or an FTL drive to develop. ;)

JimP

01-21-09, 09:23 AM

Digger16309

01-21-09, 09:44 AM

What kind? you mean deleted I hope that's not what you mean, because that's a pretty important plot point. Theonly other main thing I saw from the previews is pretty important as well.

No, that is not what I meant. I meant politics within the fleet. I know there is disappointment and anger after Earth turned out the be a bust. But I would rather not re-visit season 1 or 2 or whenever it was that politics played a major role.

Palladin

01-21-09, 09:50 AM

Oh sure, it seems great now, but just remember what they say: for every gorgeous woman, there's some guy who's tired of having sex with her (see: Hugh Grant). :p After awhile, you'd get bored and start looking for a beam to stack on a post, or an FTL drive to develop. ;)

Don't think so.

....and what planet are you from? :D

I think he intended those as metaphors, Read between the lines. Beam…. Post…. All phallic symbols, whereas FTL drives and ‘stack’ are both generally recognizable as being associated with the female anatomy.

That being said, I would seek to reach a happy medium. Therefore, I would be busy doing some building, more specifically 17s , 21s , 24s, 28s (noticing a pattern) 32s, 35s, and maybe even a well kept 37. I mean, man cannot live off of 3s, 6s & 9s alone. :D

_____________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Steve Scherrer

01-21-09, 10:11 AM

No, that is not what I meant. I meant politics within the fleet. I know there is disappointment and anger after Earth turned out the be a bust. But I would rather not re-visit season 1 or 2 or whenever it was that politics played a major role.

Huh - different strokes for different folks, I suppose. The one thing I have really like about this series is its exploration of the political angle and how the decisions of the elite affect the rest of the survivors.

GrouchoDude

01-21-09, 10:21 AM

Huh - different strokes for different folks, I suppose. The one thing I have really like about this series is its exploration of the political angle and how the decisions of the elite affect the rest of the survivors.

Agreed. What kind of show did he think he was watching? It's the willingness to explore the political angles as well as the human interest situations that elevate this series above any other wiz-bang adventure show. Within any group of people, defining and governing organizations will naturally emerge; indeed they must, or you don't have much of a civilization. One of the fascinating aspects of BSG is the exploration of how such institutions would form and evolve in situations of unimaginable duress.

TyrantII

01-21-09, 10:47 AM

I'm curious about the actor behind Felix Gaeta.

Has he been an amputee for a long time? There were scenes of him walking or running (especially on New Caprica) where it appears he has two good working legs.

If he's not an amputee, that's one hell of bit of special effects!!!!

little green and you can make that leg disappear digitally real good. No need for the old, folded into the pant leg routine.

As for the whole thing, remember, it's all happened before, it'll happen again.

"The Cylons were created by Man"
"They evolved"
"They rebelled"

and my new take:

"Man was created by Cylons"
"They evolved"
"They rebelled"

At last, they have come for me. I feel their lives, their destinies spilling out before me.

1. The denial of the one true path, played out on a world not their own, will end soon enough.

2. Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening, struggling with the knowledge of their true selves.

3. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity. And in the midst of confusion, he will find her.

4. Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one.

5. The way forward at once unthinkable, yet inevitable.

6. And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.

7. I can see them all. The seven, now six, self-described machines who believe themselves without sin. But in time, it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of one splintering into many.

8. And then, they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an angel. Not an end, but a beginning.

1. Humans hoping Earth to be their salvation.
2. Final four obvs.
3. Tigh will find Ellen, the 5th
4. The rebel Cylons and the Humans truce will last
5. Interbreeding
6. Ellens return, and boy is she pissed off
7. 7 original cylons models that are not part of the fleet, -1 (Diana’s the only of her model left) start to inter-fight even more as they realize their humanity and sin.
8. Redemption in conciliation

TyrantII

01-21-09, 10:50 AM

If all the humans are cylons, why are the cylons attacking themselves for the last 4 years?

if you don't see the brilliance in that, I'll go out on a limb and say you have no intelligence as to why it makes sense.

It's pretty damn relevant to the human experience.

I was much more disappointed with the first 4. Listen to Ron Moore's audio commentaries and he basically confirms they used the "dartboard technique" to choose them. There were no hints or clues leading up to the day he and the writers made their decision. But it is what it is, and that is a great storyline in the end. With the caliber of writing the show has had, in the end it doesn't really matter. BSG will go down as one of the best shows ever produced for television.

Wouldn't go that far, since it sounds like, for their commentary, they did invest quite a bit of time picking them out, seeing how it would fit, looking for conflicts, ect, .

Sure, they left the specifics to the last imaginable time possible, but once they had to make the decision, it seemed very nuanced and thought out as to who it was. Kinda makes their choice more plausible in my opinion, since the writers were literally in the same ship as the colonials in all those episodes before hand where everyone was on edge because anyone could each be a cylon. I imagine the writing could have been much different if they knew for 2-3 seasons before who they were going with, and it might have come off on screen as very deliberate.

As for major gripes, since I've comment on a few here, I have only one:

the horrible, STUPID idea to put a blond wig on Starbucks corpse.

Come on guys, we're not a 2 &1/2 Men audience here. We can notice and understand the small details like dog tags, viper markings, ect. And if you do decide to keep the hair, at least make it look as decomposed as the damn corpse.

That just look horribly silly to me, and ruined the moment. Kinda like, hey, look Starbuck found a movie prop version of her dead self! whewww! that was close!

rickmccamy

01-21-09, 01:54 PM

TyrantII

01-21-09, 02:41 PM

Not until the 8 started bitching about remodeling the kitchen.
The only reason men went to the Moon, or the top of Everest, or to our sucky jobs everyday is to get laid.

In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women.

change country for existence, and you're right on tune.

vfxproducer

01-21-09, 04:03 PM

Anyone else sitting on pins and needles about what will be revealed this Friday?

No. I can be pretty sure it will feature brilliant acting, with inspired dialog, in scenes which are written for big dramatic moments that ultimately serve as great clips to put on an acting real, but don't drive the story forward or resolve any questions...just like Dee shooting herself, Kara finding her own dead corpse, and Tigh and Adama playing with pistols. It's like watching individual pieces in a really good acting showcase, rather than an advancing story arc.

At this point, I still love watching BSG for the quality of the performances, but I have long stopped caring about where the story is going, the relationship between Cylons and Humans, or whether the survivors will ever find a home to live peacefully and rebuild. You can be pretty sure the series is going to end with more questions than answers. So how we get there isn't really that interesting to me anymore. It's still better than most of the shows on TV, don't get me wrong, but I no longer have a sense of anticipation for the next episode. I could be happy just watching the last one and saying "oh, that's how they ended it."

GrouchoDude

01-21-09, 04:32 PM

No matter what happens in the end, there are those that won't be satisfied, and who will complain that the storyline just didn't deliver the requisite goods versus what they had anticipated. Some have started griping already saying they just know the ending is going to let them down, questions won't be answered, and other things they presumably find while rooting around in Ron Moore's brain, Malkovich-style. There's no way around it; it comes with the territory in a show like this.

Personally, I'm finding the storyline fascinating and care very much where it's going, and where it will end up. I don't particularly care if every last question is answered, so long as the main issues are resolved and that the conclusion makes sense in terms of what's come before. I trust them to deliver on that level. They haven't let me down yet.

TyrantII

01-21-09, 04:37 PM

No. I can be pretty sure it will feature brilliant acting, with inspired dialog, in scenes which are written for big dramatic moments that ultimately serve as great clips to put on an acting real, but don't drive the story forward or resolve any questions...just like Dee shooting herself, Kara finding her own dead corpse, and Tigh and Adama playing with pistols. It's like watching individual pieces in a really good acting showcase, rather than an advancing story arc.

At this point, I still love watching BSG for the quality of the performances, but I have long stopped caring about where the story is going, the relationship between Cylons and Humans, or whether the survivors will ever find a home to live peacefully and rebuild. You can be pretty sure the series is going to end with more questions than answers. So how we get there isn't really that interesting to me anymore. It's still better than most of the shows on TV, don't get me wrong, but I no longer have a sense of anticipation for the next episode. I could be happy just watching the last one and saying "oh, that's how they ended it."

Ahh so you were looking for one big happy orgy on Earth with their newly found Earth friends? Moore really alienated those of us who thought that's how it would be ending.

Moore said he's going to wrap it up with a lot of answers, and if you read that interview back a few pages, you'd see that this episode was meant to be exactly what you said it was.

A time out and a look at how the characters dealt with finding a nuked cinder that was supposed to be their Eden. A look internally at the crew. Whether you like this type of episode, that's opinion.

He also said how the next episode is plot heavy, moving the story forward after this one episode hiatus. the only real plot point given out in this episode was done as a cliff hanger, and to merely get it out of the way and to keep from creating more questions later on, when they're looking to be giving answers.

I like their attempt not to leave the story with a final episode or two where they have God like character come in and tell us neatly how everything was tied together. Usually those story's show a lack of skill from their writers, leaving a charter to dictate what the hell just happened, when in fact it's just poor and all over the place story telling that leads to it. Kinda the Evil Bad Guy tells you his whole plan and how you fell into it crap.

Personally I thought the last episode was one of the best of the series so far. brilliant acting, and loved seeing how everyone dealt with a mortal blow to their moral.

And come on, you all thought Dee was the 5th from her brilliant performance.

scowl

01-21-09, 07:19 PM

Anyone else sitting on pins and needles about what will be revealed this Friday?
What's happening this Friday? Oh yeah... thanks for reminding me! :D

Digger16309

01-21-09, 09:04 PM

Huh - different strokes for different folks, I suppose. The one thing I have really like about this series is its exploration of the political angle and how the decisions of the elite affect the rest of the survivors.

You folks must be joking.

You cannot be serious that this:

Zarek returning to his historical roots and inciting a rebellion

is worth the lost time in this series when numerous more compelling stories need to be told. A return to season one is not necessary.

michaeltscott

01-21-09, 09:15 PM

You folks must be joking.

You cannot be serious that this:

Zarek returning to his historical roots and inciting a rebellion

is worth the lost time in this series when numerous more compelling stories need to be told. A return to season one is not necessary.Seems to me that that might be a natural and forseeable outcome of disappointment over where the people have been led by the "current administration" :).

TyrantII

01-21-09, 10:48 PM

Seems to me that that might be a natural and forseeable outcome of disappointment over where the people have been led by the "current administration" :).

also might lend to some important allegiances in and outside the fleet.

Don't forget, the seas get darker before you reach the shallows. Bringing the fleet to a smoldering Earth is causing the **** to fly. We only started to see that in 4E1.

The fleets fracturing and their focus is drifting. My guess is we'll be seeing a cylon armada making a entrance soon, and they're pretty pissed off at their forced new mortality.

MeowMeow

01-21-09, 11:04 PM

A return to season one is not necessary.

Anyone want to bet it is a bottle episode?

The stretch run of S4 Galactica by all accounts I've heard was a budget disaster. And every successful show solves budget disasters the same way: simple bottle episodes that ensure the outlays for big wow episodes are offset.

Of course, in fairness, a handful of all bottle episodes are some of the best episodes a show ever airs, because those episodes fall right into the hands of the writers. And, of course, a fairly large number are awful (Black Market, anyone?) .

This is how television gets made. Shows that don't run their budgets well get canceled. Considering that BSG is about to be reborn again with Caprica, it is fair to say no one involved has angered the budget gods.

The price we pay, as viewers, is that sometimes a show has to stall on some awful plot for a week. The trade-off, especially with Galactica, is that the budget for scenes like the opening battle of Season 4 is workable.

TyrantII

01-21-09, 11:13 PM

Anyone want to bet it is a bottle episode?

The stretch run of S4 Galactica by all accounts I've heard was a budget disaster. And every successful show solves budget disasters the same way: simple bottle episodes that ensure the outlays for big wow episodes are offset.

Of course, in fairness, a handful of all bottle episodes are some of the best episodes a show ever airs, because those episodes fall right into the hands of the writers. And, of course, a fairly large number are awful (Black Market, anyone?) .

This is how television gets made. Shows that don't run their budgets well get canceled. Considering that BSG is about to be reborn again with Caprica, it is fair to say no one involved has angered the budget gods.

The price we pay, as viewers, is that sometimes a show has to stall on some awful plot for a week. The trade-off, especially with Galactica, is that the budget for scenes like the opening battle of Season 4 is workable.

You guys really need to read that interview in full on the other page.

This last episode was 2 & 1\2 times over it's budget and had to severely cut back from some really wicked scenes. We were supposed to see the annihilation of Earth in flashbacks, but got Tyrol facing a prop wall with some styrofoam thrown at him and a camera overexposing the shot.

Same reason the epic initial attack in season one\mini was very short lived, and not vividly depicted as an all out assault. They just don't have the budget for those kind of CGI GFX if they want any parts of the rest of the episode to remain intact.

They almost cut Dee's crying scene on the flight back to Galatica. Now that would have really made her suicide a WTF moment.

MeowMeow

01-21-09, 11:32 PM

Now that would have really made her suicide a WTF moment.

Yeah, because it didn't turn into a WTF moment at all, did it?

Man, it was like killing Wash at the end of Serenity. There is no nice, linear, easy-to-understand way to kill off the most beloved character on the entire show.

Starbuck? Sure. It's not only easy to kill her off, a few fans were probably disappointed she was resurrected (sorry, but if Katee Sackhoff had to anchor a show by herself, her go-to move, the "I am so wounded that my face is contorting as the wounding goes to my brainage" would become obnoxious fast).

Dee? No dice. You kill Dee, you're announcing that it is on. No one here gets out alive.

GrouchoDude

01-21-09, 11:43 PM

Lets face it, we all know about the limitations of the cablenet budget. But that's never what this show was about. If they had a Big Four budget, and could do all those scenes we know from podcasts they had to abandon, would it make the show any better? Maybe it's been the show it's been because they've had to deal with character issues more than wiz-bang vfx precisely because they've had to fight a never-ending battle with the bean counters. Or not. Whatever. They've done astounding things with the meager resources afforded them; that's the bottom line.

Palladin

01-22-09, 12:09 AM

Yeah, because it didn't turn into a WTF moment at all, did it?

Man, it was like killing Wash at the end of Serenity. There is no nice, linear, easy-to-understand way to kill off the most beloved character on the entire show.
I disagree. Killing Wash came across like a throwaway. Killing Dee did not (leastways not to me).

In either case, Its tough for me to care that much now that LOST is back. :cool:

_________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

vfxproducer

01-22-09, 03:10 AM

Ahh so you were looking for one big happy orgy on Earth with their newly found Earth friends?

No. I merely expected to see more plot, less scenery chewing. Like, perhaps, SOMETHING that explained better WHY they couldn't resettle the planet, if they wanted to. For example, it didn't appear that anyone was taking any sort of radiation precautions. Presumably, 2,000 years later, most of that planet would be pretty habitable.

ec2546

01-22-09, 04:24 AM

As for major gripes, since I've comment on a few here, I have only one:

the horrible, STUPID idea to put a blond wig on Starbucks corpse.
...
That just look horribly silly to me, and ruined the moment. Kinda like, hey, look Starbuck found a movie prop version of her dead self! whewww! that was close!
True, but I have to believe there would be a lot of "It wasn't really Starbuck" proto-conspiracy-theories if they didn't, and the dogtags wouldn't have convinced them. Throw a little yellow wig in there and it removes all doubt. We don't know how long the viper is supposed to have been there all crashed up like that. All we know is that the beacon, according to Leoben, has been on "for a long time". 2,000 years and only now its batteries are running out? I'll buy the coincidence of the Algae Planet's star going nova, but the beacon batteries also going kaput at this exact moment is a stretch. Maybe the time of dead Kara's viper crash is not coincident with the rest of the devastation.

On the other hand, the metal toy jacks that Dualla picked up would have corroded away to nothing long ago unless they were made out of gold. There are other things that shouldn't still be there after 2,000 years. When all is said and done I think we're going to be left with a very funky timeline.

This leaves out the entire question of "Colonial year" vs. "Earth year". I think we have to accept that a "year" in the show is what we're accustomed to. I doubt they're going to spring a "the years on this planet are 5 times as long as ours" reveal on us now. At least they ditched the whole yarhen thing from TOS.

Ph8te

01-22-09, 04:31 AM

No. I merely expected to see more plot, less scenery chewing. Like, perhaps, SOMETHING that explained better WHY they couldn't resettle the planet, if they wanted to. For example, it didn't appear that anyone was taking any sort of radiation precautions. Presumably, 2,000 years later, most of that planet would be pretty habitable.

From the short shots when they were doing the radiation tests, I thought it was pretty clear that the planet was not "habitable" due to radiation levels in the soil. I dont think they have the tools to actually fix anything, they need a planet that is "good to go" where all they need to do is land and start building. While the radistion levels might not have been high enough to wear suits, I think they were high enough to prevent any type of crops\food from being planted.

At least that is what I got from the few places where it was discussed.

ec2546

01-22-09, 04:52 AM

For example, it didn't appear that anyone was taking any sort of radiation precautions. Presumably, 2,000 years later, most of that planet would be pretty habitable.The devstation looked much, much worse than what they did to Caprica in the miniseries. Sure, Athena, Helo, Starbuck and Anders' army of resistance had anti-radiation meds when they were running around there, but the sheer physical destruction didn't seem to be anywhere close to what they found on Earth. The episode did sort of gloss over the aftermath. Helo reports survey teams see the same thing everywhere on the planet, and D'Anna says hers do too. So the whole planet is toast and they can't stay there; all wrapped up in about 5 minutes.

I loved Roslin's line: We traded one nuked civilization for another.

sirjonsnow

01-22-09, 07:49 AM

Difference between Dee and Wash is that audiences liked Wash.

Palladin

01-22-09, 09:05 AM

Difference between Dee and Wash is that audiences liked Wash.

Well sure, everybody's going to like the comedy relief best. It could have just as easily been Jayne, but then you would have lost that "Who do you trust?" element.

And I'm not so sure audiences didn't like Dee, rather than at one point, perceiving her as an obstacle to Apollo and Starbuck's bizarre 'fairy tale' romance. But when you get right down to it, you had Anders as a similar counterpoint.

_______________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

GrouchoDude

01-22-09, 09:21 AM

I liked Dee. :( And there was a time when I was absolutely sure she was a Cylon (after she was mysteriously spared by the super-centurions rampaging through the ship a few seasons back - they killed everyone around her but left her alive). Shows what I know.

TyrantII

01-22-09, 10:04 AM

Yeah, because it didn't turn into a WTF moment at all, did it?

Man, it was like killing Wash at the end of Serenity. There is no nice, linear, easy-to-understand way to kill off the most beloved character on the entire show.

Dee? No dice. You kill Dee, you're announcing that it is on. No one here gets out alive.

Oh, it was a WTF moment, but it did make sense in the whole of the episode. The scene made sense, since that's where she lost it and gave up. Swam out to sea, if you will. That last date with Lee was her trying to have some control over how she went. I don't think it would have worked as well if all of a sudden bubbly Dee just offed herself with no signs of her broken psyche.

No. I merely expected to see more plot, less scenery chewing. Like, perhaps, SOMETHING that explained better WHY they couldn't resettle the planet, if they wanted to. For example, it didn't appear that anyone was taking any sort of radiation precautions. Presumably, 2,000 years later, most of that planet would be pretty habitable.

I think they did that pretty well with the numerous Geiger counter shots, shots of minimal vegetation, and even the president saying they can't stay there. Earth looked more inhospitable then the algae planet.

it's obvious it's still irradiated, so don't see the issue with leaving it at that. Do we really need Baltar running around with scientific instruments proclaiming how many rads are left in the soil?

And yes, some timelines will be screwy, some little things won't add up, but seriously, if you take a show that serious you need to just settle down. Cannon is fun for a bit, but take it too seriously and you get trek, as series boxed into a small little world.

Enjoy the ride, work out the cannon later.

Steve Scherrer

01-22-09, 10:59 AM

GrouchoDude

01-22-09, 11:22 AM

Was there a reason they couldn't go back and settle on Kobol? Besides the fact that the cylons were all around? Wouldn't they have this problem no matter where they end up, so why not go back and take chances on Kobol?

They'd have to defeat the Cylon threat first or they'd be sitting ducks, just like they were the first time. You're right about that threat existing wherever they went, but it's a big galaxy, and if they found a remote enough location, they might be able to hide from the Cylons until they become strong enough again to mount a credible defense. Or offense. That issue has gotten a bit cloudy. ;)

MeowMeow

01-22-09, 12:27 PM

I disagree. Killing Wash came across like a throwaway. Killing Dee did not (leastways not to me).

Actually, killing Wash is important to the ending of Serenity, especially as Zoe expresses the obvious question about whether Jayne thinks any of them are going to get out alive. The whole point of killing Wash is to set the tone so the film could end as a massacre, or a kind of Battle of the Alamo.

Of course, the flaw in that is picturing the scenario where Joss Whedon would have killed them all off. Odd as it sounds, I thought letting River live was the worst throwaway, since the story would have been much more poetic had River died protecting her brother. The poetry being that the entire animus of the larger story was that Simon was trying to save River.

Difference between Dee and Wash is that audiences liked Wash.

I have never taken away that audiences didn't like Dee. Hmmm.

Aside from ditching Billy to attempt a failed breeding with Apollo, the ultimate Man of Endless Procrastination and Debate and Moralization, I never really had it in for Dee.

Now, had Helo blown his brains out, I suspect a loud cheer would have erupted.

Oh, it was a WTF moment, but it did make sense in the whole of the episode.

No question. It served its purpose and it didn't feel out of place. But, it was shocking.

Of course, we've long had a running joke going in the household and among my friends that whatever you do on BSG as an actor, either become a dominant main character or say nothing.

Ron Moore loves to murder his developed, second-tier character. Look at Kat, Billy, Calley and Crashdown. Anders can be glad he got promoted to main character. Now, the bald, tatted up Chinese guy has never said a word and he's still there -- that's how you survive on BSG.

michaeltscott

01-22-09, 01:01 PM

I found killing Dee shocking simply because I didn't expect her suicide (I don't even recall her crying in the shuttle), not because she was a character that I thought was particularly important or that I cared much about. It was a very powerful moment and would certainly have a profound effect on Lee, her ex-husband and Bill Adama, who was like a father to her. It kind of punctuated the general atmosphere of despair after finding Earth, and realistically her suicide would only be one of many.

Killing Wash (and earlier, Reverend Book) in Serenity was much more shocking, since they were two of only nine principal characters, whereas BSG is a relatively huge ensemble. The loss of Dee isn't going to change the story much.

Palladin

01-22-09, 01:24 PM

Now, had Helo blown his brains out, I suspect a loud cheer would have erupted.

Hell, yeah! That would mean that Boomer was back on the market. Hmm. Now, what to do with the potentially dangerous rug-rat. :p

_____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

michaeltscott

01-22-09, 02:20 PM

Hell, yeah! That would mean that Boomer was back on the market. Hmm. Now, what to do with the potentially dangerous rug-rat. :p

_____________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mindNot Boomer--Athena. Don't get your 8s mixed up :).

Mr. Hanky

01-22-09, 02:37 PM

I found killing Dee shocking simply because I didn't expect her suicide (I don't even recall her crying in the shuttle),...

It was an utter shocker to me. She may not have been crying on the shuttle, but she was definitely shellshocked. If we examine all of her behaviors between that point and the suicide, it makes sense. Prior to the suicide, we were led to believe that she was making a progressive recovery from her state on the shuttle, but taking the suicide into account, it then also fits that she had mentally "checked-out" since the shuttle and was just tying up loose ends for a dignified exit (helping Lee come up with a saving-grace speech, then savoring one last dinner date, and then going-out with a smile on her face).

Palladin

01-22-09, 03:04 PM

Not Boomer--Athena. Don't get your 8s mixed up :).

I know, but I generally tend to default calling any of the 8s 'Boomer', simply because I like how she got that nickname. ;)

____________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

michaeltscott

01-22-09, 03:39 PM

I know, but I generally tend to default calling any of the 8s 'Boomer', simply because I like how she got that nickname. ;)To me, they're not really interchangeable. Boomer turned into a pro-Cylon-Plan bitch after being executed by Callie and reincarnated on Caprica; the one in the "Name of the Enemy" web series apparently ran a game on Gaeta on New Caprica, having most of the people he asked her to save executed. Athena is the only known tried-and-true-friend-of-humanity 8 (actually, the only tried-and-true-friend-of-humanity Cylon, period, other than some of the Final Five).

Palladin

01-22-09, 08:15 PM

To me, they're not really interchangeable. Boomer turned into a pro-Cylon-Plan bitch after being executed by Callie and reincarnated on Caprica; the one in the "Name of the Enemy" web series apparently ran a game on Gaeta on New Caprica, having most of the people he asked her to save executed. Athena is the only known tried-and-true-friend-of-humanity 8 (actually, the only tried-and-true-friend-of-humanity Cylon, period, other than some of the Final Five).

Great, but AFAIC, none of that is anywhere near as cool as how Boomer got her nickname. :p To each his own.

____________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

ec2546

01-22-09, 09:11 PM

Was there a reason they couldn't go back and settle on Kobol?I think that's exactly where they're going. Right after they deal with the Cavil faction. My guess is they change his mind with Ellen's help, or they finally carry out their genocide plan with the microbes after figuring out how to immunize the allied Cylons. Hera and Nicky could play a part in that.

I actually hope I'm wrong. The writers usually do a better job than I expect.

jason10mm

01-23-09, 09:59 AM

Depressed folks who commit suicide are frequently reported to have become elated during their final days ("he/she seemed so happy!" is a common statement). This is because they have decided to commit suicide, therefore they finally have control over whatever is making them depressed. Thus Dualla's final moments are not all that shocking or unexpected. Plus I'm sure she was meant to be a reflection of the attitude of most of humanity at this point.

I bet that if he (RDM) didn't have season long contracts for the major stars, many of them would have been killed off by now. I'd LOVE to see a show of ONLY guest stars, so any and everyone leaves or gets killed off in a regular fashion. Probably a scheduling, writing, and filming nightmare though.

scanpa

01-23-09, 10:21 PM

Well that ends the storyline on Chief's Kid being part Cylon/human....

So who is the father? Did Baltar ever sleep with her?

Nothing like closing one question and opening another.

scanpa

01-23-09, 10:57 PM

Danm that was another fast 1 hour episode.

8 to go!

Next week looks good. Wonder who gets shot, hope it's Felix. they should have airlocked the fracker when they had the chance!

"Lost"

01-23-09, 11:09 PM

Gaeta! What a little bitch. I really hate that guy, I cant believe they don't see the wheels turning on his plot, meeting with the vice president and no one knows? its a military vessel, they should know who's seeing who in the brig.

Seems like Bill is doing the presidents pain pills. And Baltar is turning on God?
They're stirring the pot now.

ec2546

01-23-09, 11:22 PM

Well that ends the storyline on Chief's Kid being part Cylon/human....

So who is the father? Did Baltar ever sleep with her?
Baltar was the first name I thought of, but Hotdog was the second. I don't think we ever saw Cally hanging with anyone, and Hotdog is the only male character with a name who would normally be around the flight deck.

Frakking around doesn't seem to be in line with Cally's character. Especially after she was accusing him of having an affair and using "their son" as a weapon trying to make him feel guilty about it. This new twist about him not being the baby's father is too much like a soap opera. What I wanted to see is what Tyrol does when he finds out about Tory's murdering ways, although now he might not care.

What's with all the pills the old man is taking? They also made a point of showing him picking up crumpled pieces of paper, twice, before he picked up Zarek's coordinates of the tillium ship. Any further significance or symbolism there?

The whole mutinous fleet against the alliance with the Cylons seems a bit contrived. You don't want to allow these teams to install FTL upgrades? Fine. We're leaving. See ya. Alternatively it seems like the alliance would be an easy sell to the Quorum. You tell them, look, the alliance is temporary. Nothing has been decided on a permanent basis, and if anybody's got a better idea then now's the time to speak up.

Tonight's lesson: If the police arrest you, wave a folder in your face, and claim they've got evidence against you, they're bluffing. Seen it all before on about a dozen different cop shows.

It was an OK episode. But if I was watching it on DVD a year from now for the first time, I would have gone right on to the next one. I watched the first 3 seasons that way. This week-to-week business is for the birds.

scanpa

01-23-09, 11:54 PM

Baltar just seemed to be the first choice.

I was waiting for Gaeta and Starbuck to go at it.

loco

01-23-09, 11:55 PM

Baltar was the first name I thought of, but Hotdog was the second. I don't think we ever saw Cally hanging with anyone, and Hotdog is the only male character with a name who would normally be around the flight deck.

Frakking around doesn't seem to be in line with Cally's character. What I want to see is what Tyrol does when he finds out about Tory's murdering ways. I hope this new soap opera-like development leads to that.

What's with all the pills the old man is taking? They also made a point of showing him picking up crumpled pieces of paper, twice, before he picked up Zarek's coordinates of the tillium ship. Any further significance or symbolism there?

The whole mutinous fleet against the alliance with the Cylons seems a bit contrived. You don't want to allow these teams to install FTL upgrades? Fine. We're leaving. See ya.

The thing I have to keep reminding myself is that the civilians in the fleet don't really know a lot about what's been going on. They only know what the Quorum is telling them, or what they hear through rumors. In fact, the Quorum itself doesn't seem to know much. Adama/Roslin have kept a pretty tight lid on the goings-on.

So, it's actually natural for these people to not want to trust the Cylons. All they know is the Cylons killed 20 billion humans and then put them through hell on New Caprica. And Adama/Roslin led them to a nuked inhabitable planet. It's not their fault it was that way, but there it is.

I was going, "WTF, get over it" through the episode until I tried to think of this from the civilian perspective. It makes sense that they would be very hesitant to join up with the Cylons.

ec2546

01-24-09, 12:14 AM

I was going, "WTF, get over it" through the episode until I tried to think of this from the civilian perspective. It makes sense that they would be very hesitant to join up with the Cylons.
I suppose you could look at it that way. But wasn't there a widespread desire within the civilian fleet to make peace with the Cylons in season 1? The fleet is way too fickle. And Zarek has to go.

Mr. Hanky

01-24-09, 01:16 AM

I anticipate a gruesomely fitting death for Zarek. C'mon- it's practically obligatory at this point, no?

moob

01-24-09, 01:23 AM

I suppose you could look at it that way. But wasn't there a widespread desire within the civilian fleet to make peace with the Cylons in season 1? The fleet is way too fickle. And Zarek has to go.
I just bought Season 1 on HD-DVD (What? Don't look at me like that...it was less than $10 okay :p), so I'll know soon enough when I re-watch, but from what I can remember, the fleet has never trusted the cylons, especially in the first season when they wanted to airlock anyone who was even a possibility.

loco's right in that the fleet doesn't know even half of what the viewer does, so their reactions to Earth and any possible alliance makes perfect sense. Remember how much they even tried to keep Athena's pregnancy from the public? Not to mention New Caprica and everything that's happened after.

What made the episode for me were all the Roslin scenes, along with everything with Tigh. He made me lol a few times, which is pretty rare on this show. I liked the Starbuck/Gaeta scene too, although knowing what we know from the webisodes, that was just loaded with irony. I'm still not a huge fan of Baltar's cult, but it seemed like maybe he was questioning his own beliefs, so there are possibilities there. The bluff against Zarek seemed unnecessary as well as I'm sure have real evidence against him.

As an aside, I've always loved the music on this show, but now I want the season 4 soundtrack even more after hearing the song during Roslin's jogging scene. O_o

Mr. Hanky

01-24-09, 01:37 AM

I liked how they weaved a little Blogojevich flavor into the Zarek storyline- instant scumbag credibility (if you didn't already dislike Zarek).

Cmd Adama had great line for the episode- [after the fuel ship for the entire fleet jumps out to who knows where] "You know, there are days where I just hate this job."

bvader

01-24-09, 01:43 AM

What's with all the pills the old man is taking? They also made a point of showing him picking up crumpled pieces of paper, twice, before he picked up Zarek's coordinates of the tillium ship. Any further significance or symbolism there?

I think it just symbolizes how the fleet has become a disorderly heap of trash and that little symbolism is Adama's wish/desire to have the "Good Ole Days" of a simple tight well cared for ship with military order under his complete command...everything in its place...everything ship shape

Gaeta! What a little bitch. I really hate that guy, I cant believe they don't see the wheels turning on his plot, meeting with the vice president and no one knows? its a military vessel, they should know who's seeing who in the brig.

Gaeta has his own "sphere of influence", the quick glance of the guard and the "I have people" comment indicated the guard was aware/in on it. Remember after the trail and it all came out Gaeta was seen as a hero passing information to the resistance which interestingly enough was headed by Cylons (Chief and Tigh) agains Cylons...bend that one in your brain...

Also, Interesting how Tigh now that he's got in all figured out in his head who he is, he *is* the together one not Adama.

PainterPaul

01-24-09, 01:51 AM

This is way over-hyped and I for one have not been sucked in at all. Very so-so. I'm finding I'm not liking or caring about the characters much at all anymore. Yes there are some unanswered questions, but I;m not caring much about it. I'm cleaning up the DVR. There's definitely better things to do... I can always catch up later.

They should have finished this up last year. I must have grown a little or a lot. I'm really losing interest now. Adama actually pisses me off now, and Lee as a politician is just not working.

At least Adama got laid. But so what. They are both very unattractive.

Roselin's attitude about sums it up.

I still like Starbuck... but really... she's getting old too.

This is going to be a mess, I'm sorry to say.

This should have been finished last year.

Gaeta! What a little bitch.

True, but who cares? Not me. Not any more.

moob

01-24-09, 02:11 AM

They are both very unattractive.

Ignoring everything else...wut?

They may make Mary McDonnell look sickly on the show, but she sure as hell isn't ugly.

Olmos on the other hand...at least he has a nice ass*.

*I'm hoping people get the reference otherwise I'll seem pretty weird.

ec2546

01-24-09, 03:36 AM

Also, Interesting how Tigh now that he's got in all figured out in his head who he is, he *is* the together one not Adama.
He does seem to have it more together than the rest. My GF remarked during the show, "Their friendship is what's going to save them in the end." Could be.

Before tonight's episode we re-watched "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down" to get the full Ellen effect. What a great episode that was. There were several scenes where the old man mentioned his close friendship with Tigh and how Ellen was such a destructive force in his (Tigh's) life. I wonder if Cylon-ized Ellen will still be a drunk floozy.

moob: No shame there :) I actually thought about buying a leftover (cheap, too!) HD-DVD player just for this show. I heard there were problems with the picture quality of the HD transfers, though, and decided to wait. Maybe that was only one particular season; I haven't looked into it recently. When they release the rest in about a year I'll buy the boxed sets for 4.0 and 4.5 to complete my collection. I'll eventually buy the Bluray versions too.

JimP

01-24-09, 05:14 AM

So if Ellen is actually the 6s, which model is derived from Col. Tigh?

JeffAHayes

01-24-09, 06:17 AM

Whew! I hadn't been here in about 10 days and WOW, I came just after tonight's show and there were like 6 pages to read to catch up (300 or so posts???)... And after all that, I can DEFINITELY SAY... "All this has happened before. It will all happen again," as different folks seemed to make relatively the SAME postings OVER AND OVER, lol.

I have a theory of my own that's been sort of "percolating" up here in my noggin for many moons now, but didn't actually start to drip Maxwell House until last week's episode wrap. Several posters have sort of "danced around" this idea, but nobody's really HIT on it, yet (which is why I read all 300 or so posts -- to make sure, before I posted it)...

I suspect that in the distant past, all humanity found some way to integrate technology into themselves at the genetic level so that they could be both human AND machine, either to lengthen their lives, make them less prone to or immune to disease, or possibly so they could simply clone themselves and transfer their consciousness into new bodies when they died (like, or similar to what the first 7 Cylon models could do BEFORE the last resurrection ship was destroyed). These were the inhabitants of the "Earth" just found and abandoned by the BSG/Cylon fleet.

About 2,000 years ago, that world suffered a MASSIVE nuclear war (as to 2,000 years being enough time for the radiation levels to return to SAFE levels for habitation, SOME dangerous radiation has half-lives in the tens-of-thousands and even MILLIONS of years, so NOT necessarily). At any rate, whatever was the CAUSE behind the nuclear holocaust (and I'm not doing any guessing on THAT), although for my theory to work, the humanoid Cylons would have to be able to REPRODUCE SEXUALLY rather than through cloning, SOME OF THEM were able to escape Earth in a spaceship, and eventually settled on Caprica and/or some of the other colonies, minus whatever technology was required to continue living as "Cylons," or else they made some conscious DECISION not to continue that "lifestyle." So they started to repopulate, and the "Cylon trait" eventually became a recessive gene in the Human population -- something that existed in the DNA of EVERYONE, but didn't "express itself" in anyone, UNTIL they arrived at a point where humans once again built artificial intelligence machines to do work for them, and that flipped some sort of "switch" for some of the parents and a few offspring became Cylons, some of whom automatically knew their purpose through some sort of "genetic memory," and when the time was right went offworld and began to build cloning facilities to build their numbers and also took control of the former "rebel centurions."

For some other "switched on" Cylons, the path was different, and they grew as normal Humans. For the REST of humanity, that gene is still in their bodies, and lying dormant, and potentially there to be "switched on" if the need arises -- either for their benefit or to their detriment. I'm thinking it would be for their beneifit, and Cavel knows some, most or ALL of this and that's why he's so obsessed with nobody -- even the first 7 Cylons learning anything about the Final 5 -- or anything else.

As for Ellen being the 5th, I think that was a "writers' ruse." Based on what they showed, I'm sure she WAS a "Cylon," but I DON'T think she was the ONLY ONE. I suspect we're going to discover there are many more, and as I said, it may very well end up that they ALL are. Kara is OBVIOUSLY some sort of Clone. She may have traveled through time when she "went down" on that gas planet. Perhaps she created a time paradox, wherein there were TWO of her -- one that crashed on Earth, and one that didn't?

I was shocked by Dee's suicide for JUST a minute, but then it made sense to me, too. Suicide victims DO often have a sense of elation just before, because they're "at peace" with their decision.

A PLOT HOLE to me, is NOT have continual audio-visual monitoring in a prison cell holding a V.P. suspected of Treason, among other things -- especially when he has a visitor who has already shown OBVIOUS CONTEMPT for the orders of the very Admiral who had him arrested.

A MAJOR PLOT HOLE, to me, is that after 2,000 years, not only would those metal jacks likely be rusted to nothing (unless they were made of aluminium or something similar that doesn't generally rust), but they'd ALSO likely not be RIGHT on the surface... They'd be buried under SEVERAL FEET of sediment... along with most of the OTHER artifacts they found right at the surface level... And even IF the jacks wouldn't have been rusted (because maybe they WERE aluminum), there's NO WAY IN HELL that wooden guitar neck would have still been in one piece -- struts and all -- after 20 years, much less 2,000!

Still, all in all, I enjoyed both of the last two episodes (although much of tonight's was a bit "slow"). It DID have some pretty good plot development, and at least it didn't have ridiculous things, like 2,000-year-old guitar necks sitting on top of the ground in almost-perfect condition.

Sorry, but as much as I love this show, my "willing suspension of disbelief" can go ONLY so far. As a Sci-Fi fan, I'm EASILY willing to accept that there's some "physics we don't yet know about" that will explain FTL travel, and artificial gravity, and so forth. But the physics and chemistry and biology and geology that we DO know about tells me most of that stuff they "found" ON Earth is COMPLETE FANTASY!
Jeff

Ph8te

01-24-09, 07:18 AM

I have to say I really liked this episode :)......Everything moved pretty quickly looks like they are picking up speed.

As for the question about Adama picking up paper, I agree with others who said that he was trying to keep "order", the discarded paper represented the disorder in the fleet and that the screws are coming loose.

Jeff, as far as the metal goes we dont know what it was made of, so really it could be made of a metal we have no knowledge of. I agree with them not being on the surface, but again this was meant to be "the right time at the right place" IMO.

I still dont get people who contantly come back to this thread and others to only complain maybe looking for validation. If you dont like it there are a bunch of other things to do, but those are the ways of the forums, and there are ways to "deal" with posts like that ;)....

I really think people are bringing too much of our current science into thie game when really the humans are light years ahead of us, and the cylons are lightyears beyiond them, so to try to figure it out would be fruitless.

As with most shows and movies these days I go into it with a blank slate and I dont try to over analyze every minnute detail, and really I have enjoyed everything much much more. I never thought it was the science that led the show it is the people story 1st.

I also agree that while Ellen is the 5th she may not be the last cylon revealed in the end. We can see the same statement said over and over and over " All the has happened before, it will happen again", what we are seeing is a retelling of history as there are those who did not learn from history so they are doomed to repeat it.

petergaryr

01-24-09, 07:22 AM

I know some folks are down on Gaeta, but it's not like he doesn't have some good reasons for his behavior:

The Cylons destroyed his civilization
They chased the remnants trying to destroy the survivors
A #8 betrayed him badly
Kara (married to a Cylon) wrecked his leg
Adama and Roslyn followed half baked prophesies to a nuked Earth
The alliance with the "friendly" Cylons is a very recent development

Not that I particularly like the guy, but I can certainly understand his reasons.

vurbano

01-24-09, 07:27 AM

Ignoring everything else...wut?

They may make Mary McDonnell look sickly on the show, but she sure as hell isn't ugly.

Olmos on the other hand...at least he has a nice ass*.

*I'm hoping people get the reference otherwise I'll seem pretty weird.
She's a dog

scanpa

01-24-09, 08:26 AM

Now that the remaining Rebel Cylons know that the 13th Tribe was Cylon, I think they have every right to join the humans, and be represented on the Council of 12 ... 13!

more then likely this is what the show is heading towards, that and the battle with Cavils remaining Cylon forces.

Steve Scherrer

01-24-09, 08:51 AM

This is way over-hyped and I for one have not been sucked in at all. Very so-so. I'm finding I'm not liking or caring about the characters much at all anymore. Yes there are some unanswered questions, but I;m not caring much about it. I'm cleaning up the DVR. There's definitely better things to do... I can always catch up later.

They should have finished this up last year. I must have grown a little or a lot. I'm really losing interest now. Adama actually pisses me off now, and Lee as a politician is just not working.

At least Adama got laid. But so what. They are both very unattractive.

Roselin's attitude about sums it up.

I still like Starbuck... but really... she's getting old too.

This is going to be a mess, I'm sorry to say.

This should have been finished last year.

True, but who cares? Not me. Not any more.

Can you promise, then, that this will be the last post from you?

I am enjoying the show immensely. While I don't think last night's epi was one of the better ones, I still appreciated watching the fleet trying to contend with everything going on.