I simply cannot wait to see BG in HD....now my question is hopefully not too newbish....

Will I be able to watch BG in HD here in San Antonio? I have yet to recieve it here.


It is shown in SD on SciFi channel currently. After the season is over it will be re-aired on Universal-HD in HD. At least that's what happened for the first season.

Congrats on your new HT.. :)

Glad this thread is now allowing spoilers. People were getting upset about Season 2 spoilers, so I stopped reading/posting.

I also thought that love comment was silly. It sounded like something from Star Trek: TNG, not BSG.

I am in San Antonio and will be getting Time Warner Cable in the home...hopefully in 2 weeks when we close. The Home theater guys are installing a nice system with a 110 inch screen!

I simply cannot wait to see BG in HD....now my question is hopefully not too newbish....

Will I be able to watch BG in HD here in San Antonio? I have yet to recieve it here.

Thanks in advance!

Mike


Uh, Dude, I hate to break this to you, but TWC doesn't carry the UHD channel (my provider too), so you're never going to see this show in HD unless we can somehow convince them to pick it up. I'm game for taking hostages.

Glad this thread is now allowing spoilers. People were getting upset about Season 2 spoilers, so I stopped reading/posting.

I also thought that love comment was silly. It sounded like something from Star Trek: TNG, not BSG.

Technically they aren't spoilers since they have already aired, but if you're an HD holdout then it will be a spoiler to you - at least until UHD airs the first 10 episodes of Season 2.

Uh, Dude, I hate to break this to you, but TWC doesn't carry the UHD channel (my provider too), so you're never going to see this show in HD unless we can somehow convince them to pick it up. I'm game for taking hostages.


NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh well...watching the SD version on a 110" screen will still blow away the 13" tv I am currently watching....LOL

Finally read the ENTIRE thread....good stuff written there! Some folks were saying that you could buy the series now on DVD? Is this just the first season in the states or is it some sort of UK version?

Keenan...thanks for the congrats...I cant wait to get it up and running!

Some folks were saying that you could buy the series now on DVD? Is this just the first season in the states or is it some sort of UK version?


First season, exclusively at Best Buy until Sept 20 I think when the US version is released. The Best But version is the UK release that has been re-coded for Region 1 playback.

Keenan...is there any content difference between the US and UK versions...aside from the sound track as I read earlier?

Careful, the UK version is in English.

Careful, the UK version is in English.

OMG....Really? :eek:

HEHEHE.....I think I may have to check it out just for grins. I own the original series on DVD as well! :)

Keenan...is there any content difference between the US and UK versions...aside from the sound track as I read earlier?
As far as I know, there is no difference other than the soundtrack. There may be some extras on the UK/US version although I'm not sure. I've had the UK version since April so I did not purchase the Best Buy release.

Careful, the UK version is in English.
But it comes with sub-titles... :p

I'd love to see it dubbed with British accents. :)

There was a thread started in the DVD forum on Season 2. Some comments were made there, but it was sporadic.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=559570

v/r,
C-F

First season, exclusively at Best Buy until Sept 20 I think when the US version is released. The Best But version is the UK release that has been re-coded for Region 1 playback.


Also, the BB exclusive is ONLY the first season. The version to be released on 9/20 will also contain the miniseries.


Wowzer! After recording a missing episode on the 16th, I've just finished all five of the new episodes. Yeah, it's fuzzy SD, but zoomed to fill the screen, I'm glad I didn't wait. This is the best TV I've seen in years. So, now we begin to understand the "plan" the Cylons have. Sort of like Planned Parenthood, but different.

Kinda the opposite of Planned Parenthood. They are "aborting" the adults and creating more fetuses. :)

Cant wait for it tonight!

According to IMDB, it appears to be video,

Technical Specifications

Color info: Color
Camera: Panavision Cameras and Lenses
Negative format: Video (HDTV)
Aspect ratio: 1.78 : 1
That's what I've been hearing, so this negative hair shouldn't be there. This had to have been shot on negative film.

I'm going to ask around about this.

To return this thread to it's HD roots for a moment, I would just add (belatedly since these were April comments) that I watched some of this series on UHD on VOOM before it went and I too found the HD to be wanting. Overall resolution just didn't match the best I've seen, Discovery HD for instance. I'm tempted to wonder if it's just 480p. Once again, there really seem to be so MANY flavors of widescreen/HD image quality available, based on how many generations removed something is from the in-camera elements, how much processing it's undergone both artistically and possibly specifically to monkey with resolution because of copy protection fears. Very hard to say.

That's what I've been hearing, so this negative hair shouldn't be there. This had to have been shot on negative film.

I'm going to ask around about this.Could be just a hair that strayed into the lens for a moment before getting blown off. I still say everything originates on HD-video

Could be just a hair that strayed into the lens for a moment before getting blown off. I still say everything originates on HD-video
The hair would have casted a black shadow on the image, not a negative white one.

The hair would have casted a black shadow on the image, not a negative white one.

I'm enjoying this debate. Sort of CSI-BSG. :p

I'm enjoying this debate. Sort of CSI-BSG. :p
I'm hoping Gil Grissom will post something like, "That looks like a hair, but it's not. It's actually a..." and then it will all make sense. :)

It's a crack in the present dimension...


According to IMDB, it's categorized as the same method used to do Collateral, 24 and Once Upon A Time In Mexico. HD video.

The cinematographer is listed as a Stephen McNutt, so if you can find something on him, you might get your answer.

3 minutes til I can watch BSG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Although this will be on a 13" color tv I picked up in Korea while stationed in Japan.....I NEED MORE COWBELL....Im sorry I NEED A BIGGER SCREEN!

Chat at ya after the episode!

Yes, more cowbell indeed! Just don't get no cow's hair on it, or scowl will have a--well, you know.

ARRRGHHHH......

I hate two parters! BTW...for those of us unlucky enough to be running in SD for our BSG....how does it look on a big screen? I think the cinematography with the shaky camera angles is awesome...however on a big screen I think the wife will be getting seasick...or space sick....LOL

The cinematographer is listed as a Stephen McNutt, so if you can find something on him, you might get your answer.
I got the answer from David Mullen at cinematography.com.

This part of the scene had to be shot on film. The Sony HDW-F900/3 they normally use simply can't shoot slow motion. You'll notice that all of the slow motion sequences in this scene have tons more grain and less contrast than the regular motion sequences.

There's even a short part shot on video (as Boomer passes in front of the camera) where they had the actors try to move in slow motion. After you watch it a few times you'll notice that all the actors are moving at different "slow motion" speeds. :eek:

This part of the scene had to be shot on film. The Sony HDW-F900/3 they normally use simply can't shoot slow motion. You'll notice that all of the slow motion sequences in this scene have tons more grain and less contrast than the regular motion sequences.

There's even a short part shot on video (as Boomer passes in front of the camera) where they had the actors try to move in slow motion. After you watch it a few times you'll notice that all the actors are moving at different "slow motion" speeds. :eek:The action doesn't have to be shot in slo-mo in regards to video. Final Cut HD (which I believe they sometimes use) and other programs can slow the action down. I've seen slo-mo/speed-up tricks in countless videos. Where the main subject and the background subjects are moving at different speeds and when played back at 'normal' speed, yields this cool effect.

Stephen McNutt. Isn't he the one who initially balked at shooting BSG on video? Or was it the DP? Someone might've talked Ron Moore into shooting certain scenes on 35mm film. But as far as I'm concerned they can shoot the entire process on film, but that would likely send production costs up too high.

Can someone tell me what happened to Caprica Sharon? I must have missed it.

She's on the Astral Queen in the brig.

...actually now she's on the away team down on Kobol.

So why was the fact that there were survivors on Caprica kept quiet..? It was never mentioned as far as I can tell.

Do you suppose Adama knew Dee had betrayed him, and that was the reason for the talk about betrayal and rage?

And doesn't Adama seem to be much more emotional since his brush with death..? I guess nearly dying will do that to you.. :p It seems as if he has a closer connection to the females in this show...

The action doesn't have to be shot in slo-mo in regards to video. Final Cut HD (which I believe they sometimes use) and other programs can slow the action down.
Yes, you can create choppy cartoonish 12 fps slow motion instead of 48 fps at half speed but they're two very different things. One looks professional and the other doesn't.

They actually did use a similar effect at the very end of the scene. They slowed down the video to almost nothing for about a second and sped it back up again. It looks a little silly but that's OK for a brief effect. You wouldn't want to do wacky stuff like that to long sequences in a huge shocker scene llike this.

Awesome season finale last night! I've never seen a more striking "cliff-hanger". When will the next season start?

Awesome season finale last night! I've never seen a more striking "cliff-hanger". When will the next season start?

Agreed....awesome show. Was glad to see they introduced the Pegasus plot from the original series with their own special twist. Remember Michelle Forbes from Star Trek the Next Generation? She was Ensign Ro, and the perfect choice for a queen bee hard ass female Admiral.

The way they were treating the female Cylon prisoners was BRUTAL...I almost couldn't believe it and then remembered that humans have been doing it to one another since the dawn of time...why would they show any more/less remorse for abusing a 'toaster'. In their minds it really wasn't a crime. The show actually made me feel sorry for a Cylon, didn't think that was possible.

season 3 or 2.5 depending on how you look at it begins in January -

did anyone else get a creepy feeling from pegasus - kind of like they were cylons?

great episode - bsg has turned out to be a damn fine series!

now if we could only get word on hd from universal hd

That Admiral Dominatrix is indeed one hard-ass evil biotch. I can't decide if I want to frack her or kill her. Maybe she should be put in a cell and subject to the same treatment as the female cylons receive from her crew.

I've never seen the "Old Man" filled with such laser hot rage and resolve. I think/hope Admiral Dom is about to get her leather panties blasted.

At first I wondered (as we do about everyone on this show) if the Pegasus crew were Cylons, but that doesn't jive with the way they treat Cylon prisoners. There is definitely something fracked up with that bunch, though.

At first I wondered (as we do about everyone on this show) if the Pegasus crew were Cylons, but that doesn't jive with the way they treat Cylon prisoners. There is definitely something fracked up with that bunch, though.

Remember how #6 beat the silica out of Caprica-Boomer to convince Helo she had been captured by Cylons? They are a tricky bunch.

True.

The 2nd. Half of Season 2 starts in Jan. 2006

The President of the Colonies needs to get a back bone and step in and remove Admiral Cain from Cmd. of the fleet.

Finally caught the Finale via Tivo.

BSG '06 is now my most anticipated premiere. More than 24, and even more than LOST was. How could they end it there? I got enough pent up energy to carry me until January. :eek:

How could they end it there?
I agree, I re-checked the recording to make sure that really was the end... :p

Man, Jan is a loooooong ways away. What's also disconcerting is that these last 3-4 eps are very disjointed. I'm definitely going to re-watch them(if they air them) before the Jan segment starts up to try and retain what all is happening.

Disjointed is right.. how they go from finding the temple to all of a sudden "no longer looking for earth" kind of attitude.. oh well it still rocks


I agree, I re-checked the recording to make sure that really was the end... :p

Man, Jan is a loooooong ways away. What's also disconcerting is that these last 3-4 eps are very disjointed. I'm definitely going to re-watch them(if they air them) before the Jan segment starts up to try and retain what all is happening.

Trust me, Earth is overrated. :)

season 3 or 2.5 depending on how you look at it begins in January -

did anyone else get a creepy feeling from pegasus - kind of like they were cylons?

great episode - bsg has turned out to be a damn fine series!

now if we could only get word on hd from universal hd

I doubt they are cylons, they could have wiped out the fleet with nukes from within by now.

The reason they seem so cold is that they've lost a huge piece of their humanity. For months they've existed for nothing but revenge and destruction. They weren't protecting a fleet or fighting for survival, but fighting a war that was already over.

My 2 cents.

Or they are clones :-) (inside joke for all the LOST thread guys reading this)

Shooting one guy in the head will give you a surprising amount of obedience. You end up with a whole ship that has the personality (disorder) of the Admiral and nobody with the balls to do anything about it.

Trust me, Earth is overrated. :)


yeah, can you imagine how pissed they'd be when they finally got here? We came all this way for THIS? Now they've got 5 billion defenseless humans to look after too, and not like they could evacuate the planet if the Cylons showed. We can't even evacaute Houston. (spoken as a Texas who saw the traffic jams)

To return this thread to it's HD roots for a moment, I would just add (belatedly since these were April comments) that I watched some of this series on UHD on VOOM before it went and I too found the HD to be wanting. Overall resolution just didn't match the best I've seen, Discovery HD for instance. I'm tempted to wonder if it's just 480p. Once again, there really seem to be so MANY flavors of widescreen/HD image quality available, based on how many generations removed something is from the in-camera elements, how much processing it's undergone both artistically and possibly specifically to monkey with resolution because of copy protection fears. Very hard to say.

Steve in_la. The look of the series is purposely designed to give the show that film look using 1080 camera's. They want it to be very dark in nature. I wish I kept the link where the cinematographer and one of the producers were discussing it. I can live with the picture quality because it is 1:78.1. I wish the sound track would come alive. Maybe a DTS in place of the Dolby Digital for the DVDs. I agree that the quality of the HD is lacking. On the other hand, the show tends to be very graphic in nature. I think it would be interesting to see what the show would look like using the full capability of the HD camera's with over the top set lights. Overall, this is one of the best shows on TV. My wife turned me onto it. People that don't like Science Fiction are watching the show. Probably because of Tricia Helfer and Grace Park, but the show just kicks ass.

Steve in_la. The look of the series is purposely designed to give the show that film look using 1080 camera's. They want it to be very dark in nature. I wish I kept the link where the cinematographer and one of the producers were discussing it. I can live with the picture quality because it is 1:78.1. I wish the sound track would come alive. Maybe a DTS in place of the Dolby Digital for the DVDs. I agree that the quality of the HD is lacking. On the other hand, the show tends to be very graphic in nature. I think it would be interesting to see what the show would look like using the full capability of the HD camera's with over the top set lights. Overall, this is one of the best shows on TV. My wife turned me onto it. People that don't like Science Fiction are watching the show. Probably because of Tricia Helfer and Grace Park, but the show just kicks ass.

Amen brother, Amen. Content is king :-)

I agree about the grainy look, I remember reading an interview with the producers, and the grainy look is by design. Although the outdoor scenes on Kobol were fantastic and more indicative of what the PQ could be like if they used the cameras to their full HD potential.

Trust me, Earth is overrated.
:D :D

Ronald Moore said that season 2 would be approx 22 episodes. So January will be second half of the season.

But the look on Amiral Kane's officers when she ordered her alert vipers to launch was "are you frak'in kidding?"

Wonder how her crew assigned to Galactica will act now that the 2 Battlestars have launched against each other? We know what the reassigned Galactica crew will do. If they take anything from the TOS series, they probably won't actually shoot, but Kane will probably be pulled back from the line she has crossed by the President and then in a joint Battlestar attack on the 3 basestars, Kane and the Pegasus will vanish and her left behind fighters will join Galactica.

:)

I'm blown away! Just watched the finale.

They threw me off a bit with that out of place music during the authentication back and forth dialog. I was shaking my head thinking.... Is a DirecTV softcore PPV bleeding audio onto SciFi? ;)

That said...this episode was just great. All brought their "A" game to this one. Congrats to cast and crew! Awesome!!!

I agree, great choice in casting Michelle Forbes as the Admiral!

January won't get here soon enough...Will have to hope that Lost fills the void ;)

The XO of Pegasus will take command and have the ADM arrested. Probably after she refuses the President's order to stand down.

Was there a similar storyline in TOS? Wasn't it Lloyd Bridges who joined the fleet with another Battlestar?

The reason they seem so cold is that they've lost a huge piece of their humanity. For months they've existed for nothing but revenge and destruction.

Like the Pegasus of the original series, the crew of the new Pegasus is fiercely dedicated to destroying as many Cylons as they can, but they're really just overcompensating for their cut-and-run cowardice displayed during the initial Cylon attack.

How many civilians did the Pegasus bother to save during the Cylon attack? None. Protection of civilian society is what a military is supposed to do; saving your own ass, while allowing your civilization to be destroyed, is hardly "heroic"...

Michelle Forbes is hot, but she deserves to be relieved of her command. :)

~Dan

Was there a similar storyline in TOS? Wasn't it Lloyd Bridges who joined the fleet with another Battlestar?

Yes, Lloyd Bridges was Adm. Caine, commander of the Pegasus in TOS...

~Dan

Saving military assets to fight later makes sense if they were truly in a no-win situation. (Only CPT Kirk can blindly go into any situation knowing that he'll improvise a solution ;) )

My question is why didn't the Cylons disable all network computers at the shipyard - especially since there were 3 Battlestars there?

Man, Jan is a loooooong ways away. What's also disconcerting is that these last 3-4 eps are very disjointed. I'm definitely going to re-watch them(if they air them) before the Jan segment starts up to try and retain what all is happening.

Hopefully, they'll start soon on UHD...

The storylines this season are so excellent, I just had to watch in SD on SciFi. Now I'm looking forward to some HD eye candy to tide me over 'till January.

~Dan

Saving military assets to fight later makes sense if they were truly in a no-win situation. (Only CPT Kirk can blindly go into any situation knowing that he'll improvise a solution ;) )
Kobayashi Maru? :)

Honor is fighting to the death for what you believe in. "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day" holds no water when the civilization you are sworn to defend is getting completely toasted.

As Worf would say: "the crew of the Pegasus has no honor."


My question is why didn't the Cylons disable all network computers at the shipyard - especially since there were 3 Battlestars there?
They should have, since the Pegasus is more modern than the Galactica, but since they were in the shipyard, perhaps their computers were all off-line when the Cylons sent the deactivation codes...

~Dan

Disjointed is right.. how they go from finding the temple to all of a sudden "no longer looking for earth" kind of attitude.. oh well it still rocksHuh? Where did you get the idea that they were "no longer looking for Earth"? I didn't get that impression. They know where it is now and they're headed in that direction (otherwise the Prez wouldn't be so content).

As they said when they were looking at the "star map", Earth is a very long way off. There's a lot of Cylon-dodging to do on the way :).

I was pretty shocked by the inhumane treatment of Cylons allowed on the Pegasus. Starvation, shackles and gang-rape? Rape as a form of interrogation technique? Now, the Galactica crew has had a pretty (understandably) nasty attitude toward Cylons--after all, they did murder presumably billions of humans. Starbuck tortured one while interrogating him, but there was some urgency, since he'd claimed he'd planted a bomb that was going off very soon. Roslyn spaced him when he admitted that he lied and wanted to space pregnant Sharon when she first saw her, but even that treatment was extremely mild in comparison to what the Pegasus crew did to the Number 6 in their brig.

Of course, they're attitude that "They're just machines--they don't have emotions, just software", probably helps tons with acting like this. But just letting your crew treat effigies of human being in this fashion seems like a bad idea.

The whole thing strongly reminds me of the (not particularly good) Robert Heinlein novel "Friday (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friday_%28book%29)", in which a genetically engineered "artificial person" fights prejudice against her kind, who were also create by people as servants.

Yes, Lloyd Bridges was Adm. Caine, commander of the Pegasus in TOS...

~Dan

Actually Lloyd Bridges was Command Kane, not Admiral Kane. Adama outranked him in more then one way. Being a commander longer and was as a member of the quarem of 12.


And spacing a Cylon is a lot more "humain" then raping them. A "quick" death. They are treating the cylons as human by performing a human act with them, but not giving them the dignity of human treatment. But then again, considering what Adm. Kane has done so far, not that shocked.

And when the president orders Kane to stand down, and she refuses, then she will be disobaying the orders of her direct superior, the president of the 12 colonies. Which is the one thing she detests in anyone subordinate to her. Disobaying orders and killed her XO for that very reason. So should prove intersting when this picks up in January.

Considering the ADM wasn't taking calls from the President prior to the Galactica launching Vipers - hopefully it will be the XO just acting on his own. I'd rather have that than having any authority behind his actions. Especially if he ultimately ends up commanding the Pegasus under Adama.

Saving military assets to fight later makes sense if they were truly in a no-win situation. (Only CPT Kirk can blindly go into any situation knowing that he'll improvise a solution ;) )

My question is why didn't the Cylons disable all network computers at the shipyard - especially since there were 3 Battlestars there?

She said they were due for a 3 month overhaul...they probably hadn't had their systems upgraded to Baltar's special nav program (traitorous punk).

I'm blown away! Just watched the finale.

They threw me off a bit with that out of place music during the authentication back and forth dialog. I was shaking my head thinking.... Is a DirecTV softcore PPV bleeding audio onto SciFi? ;)

That said...this episode was just great. All brought their "A" game to this one. Congrats to cast and crew! Awesome!!!

I agree, great choice in casting Michelle Forbes as the Admiral!

January won't get here soon enough...Will have to hope that Lost fills the void ;)



VERY cheesy music I agree. And usually the music is topnotch, not sure what happened there.

Ronald Moore said that season 2 would be approx 22 episodes. So January will be second half of the season.

But the look on Amiral Kane's officers when she ordered her alert vipers to launch was "are you frak'in kidding?"

Wonder how her crew assigned to Galactica will act now that the 2 Battlestars have launched against each other? We know what the reassigned Galactica crew will do. If they take anything from the TOS series, they probably won't actually shoot, but Kane will probably be pulled back from the line she has crossed by the President and then in a joint Battlestar attack on the 3 basestars, Kane and the Pegasus will vanish and her left behind fighters will join Galactica.

:)


Season 2 of BSG is 20 Episodes, same as the 2 SG series.

If the second set of 10 stories stay as good as the first 10, then the show should be picked up for next Late summer 2006

And spacing a Cylon is a lot more "humain" then raping them. A "quick" death. They are treating the cylons as human by performing a human act with them, but not giving them the dignity of human treatment.I'm sorry--that was the point that I was trying to make. The Galactica crew, though they've been pretty rough with the Cylons, haven't treated them in any truly inhumane ways, other than a brief session of torture that Starbuck put the one guy through trying to get him to tell where the bomb he claimed to have planted (and which was due to explode very soon) was. And that was extremely mild in comparison to what the people on Pegasus have done to the Number Six in their brig.

What's so "human" about rape? People have been known to rape animals. American slaves weren't considered by their owners to be human, as such (though they certainly knew better), yet they used them for sex. It's the same thing here.

The contradiction here is that, using rape as a form of torture presupposes that you believe that the psychological effects of the act--humiliation, shame, etc--will have an effect of breaking down the will of the "machine". By the very act, you declare that you believe that they have emotional responses and can be manipulated by them, just like people. That's hardly thinking of them as "machines". A machine would just be pretending to have emotions; if it were programmed to reveal nothing to you of any secrets it knew, then nothing that you could do would get any information out of it at all.

In the end, I think that they're all aware that the Cylons are more than just "machines"--well, maybe not the Pegasus crew, but the people on Galactica. The Galactica crew knew, worked and played with Sharon Valeri for years--many of them loved her. I think that Adama thought of her as a daughter. Now that they know that she was a Cylon, suddenly, she's an "it".And when the president orders Kane to stand down, and she refuses, then she will be disobaying the orders of her direct superior, the president of the 12 colonies. Which is the one thing she detests in anyone subordinate to her. Disobaying orders and killed her XO for that very reason. So should prove intersting when this picks up in January.She'll just be do the same thing that Adama did in the beginning with Roslyn--deny the validity of her presidency and her authority to command her in military matters.

Well, hope that the civilian fleet does not have to re-establish the point it made during Tigh's Martial Law period. With this officer, that would get ugly quickly. Thus, distrust is reinforced - undermining all that Commander Adama worked for with the [Inside Edition].

v/r,
C-F

What's so "human" about rape? People have been known to rape animals. American slaves weren't considered by their owners to be human, as such (though they certainly knew better), yet they used them for sex. It's the same thing here.

The contradiction here is that, using rape as a form of torture presupposes that you believe that the psychological effects of the act--humiliation, shame, etc--will have an effect of breaking down the will of the "machine". By the very act, you declare that you believe that they have emotional responses and can be manipulated by them, just like people. That's hardly thinking of them as "machines". A machine would just be pretending to have emotions; if it were programmed to reveal nothing to you of any secrets it knew, then nothing that you could do would get any information out of it at all.

In the end, I think that they're all aware that the Cylons are more than just "machines"--well, maybe not the Pegasus crew, but the people on Galactica. The Galactica crew knew, worked and played with Sharon Valeri for years--many of them loved her. I think that Adama thought of her as a daughter. Now that they know that she was a Cylon, suddenly, she's an "it".


And that was about the point I was trying to make. The Galactica crew knows they are machines, but are treated as human to a point. The Pegasus crew treats them as machines, until they want to get their rocks off. If they reall thought of them fully as machines, that would be about same as making it with the old chrome toasters. But they are using the act of rape, as a phychological (sp?) torture, and in that effect, thinking of them are human and expecting human responses out of a machine. I hope I was more clear this time.



She'll just be do the same thing that Adama did in the beginning with Roslyn--deny the validity of her presidency and her authority to command her in military matters.

True. But that was before it sank in that they needed to save the civilians and she was the remaining member of the colonial government and that she was right in what she wanted to do. They still clash, but it seems more on how to accomplish a goal rather then that the goal actually needs to be done. The Arrow of Apollo not withstanding. Should prove interesting no matter how it goes. :)

I think his initial 'she' and last 'her' were subs for Admiral Helena Cain, but nevertheless I think the intent was clear - Admiral Cain has had no such 'epiphany' in regard to the President Laura Roslin's election/appointment, the President's plan, or where the line between civil and military authority may lie. We have seen Commander Adama and the President hammer out a mutual working position, but personalities would dominate this uneasy arrangement even for two compatible heads of state and military.

The Admiral is clearly not interested in broaching the matter, because the resolution of who has ultimate authority and where the division may lay is not in her best interest just yet. The Admiral will avoid any situation where the President could request or demand <anything at all> thus requiring that answer now - lest precedent be set - until the Admiral has a better feel for the politics, and has set conditions to allow the military supremacy where desired.

v/r,
C-F

True

Saw this at The Digital Bits (digitalbits.com/#20) , an interesting bit of information about the episode Pegasus. Sort of pointless IMO to put it on the Season 2.5 DVD set unless one waits until Universal HD airs Season 2.5

There's no spoilers in the posting but I don't know what The Digital Bits (digitalbits.com/#20) policy is regarding re-posting of info from their site.

Looks like the 42 min version of "Pegasus" will be on the season 2.0 set released today 12/20/2005.
The longer version of "Pegasus" will be the first track on the season 2.5 set (next set release with the second half of season two episodes).
So, once you buy the two "season 2- half season" sets.... you'll own both versions of "Pegasus".


I was surprised at the excellent video quality of the season 1 DVD's. The flaws on most DVD's show up on my 42" plasma set. BSG season 1 is top notch. Upon watching the "bonus feature" on production (disc 5) , they mentioned that BSG is recorded in "24p", not interlaced video tape.

Here's something I found on the net regarding the "24p" format:
What is 24p?

24p is the new high definition format that is generating a lot of excitement in the Film/ Video community. The "24" refers to the frame rate, 24 frames per second. The "p" means, “progressive image scanning”…. “Progressive image” as opposed to “interlaced scanning”.


Looks Like Film!

The revolutionary aspect of this new format is that video shot in 24P looks like it was shot on film. When closely analyzed and viewed on SD (Standard Definition) TV, video shot on 24p HD and film have a very similar look. (Standard Definition) TV. We’ve screened our HD 24p to many DP’s and stumped a few of them as to which is film or video. Sure, some of us can tell the difference in the highlights; but the general audience certainly does not notice these subtle differences.


• Film Vs Video – “Production Value”

Most viewers think that film looks better than video, appears to have more “production value,” but they can’t specifically tell you why. We believe that the qualities that we like in film, those that give it higher “production value” and more believability, are: frame rate, aspect ratio, resolution and latitude. Until 24P, these are the qualities that traditionally differentiated film and video.


The introduction of 24p has brought the formats of film and video much closer together.

This process of bringing the two formats closer together started when video cameras were introduced with the ability to shoot in the16x9 aspect ratio. The 16x9 ratio afforded a more cinematic canvas to work on. At about the same time, HD (Hi Definition) resolution greatly improved picture quality.

So, you think they're going to force us to buy 2 DVD sets of season 2 just to get all the episodes? Frack that!

I was thinking they'd release a "combined" set after the second half of the season airs this winter, and had planned on waiting to buy it then.

So, you think they're going to force us to buy 2 DVD sets of season 2 just to get all the episodes? Frack that!


"So say we all" :D :D

What episodes comprise of season 2.5? I watched what was on SCI-FI friday nights at 10:00 this past fall... weren't they season 2? And new episodes are starting up again next month. Right? Wouldn't season 2.5 be the new episodes starting in Jan. 06? Or am I missing some episode?

What episodes comprise of season 2.5? I watched what was on SCI-FI friday nights at 10:00 this past fall... weren't they season 2? And new episodes are starting up again next month. Right? Wouldn't season 2.5 be the new episodes starting in Jan. 06? Or am I missing some episode?

Yes, the second half of the second season starts on January 6. IIRC, it's 10 eps, just like the first half...

I labeled it 2.5 to avoid confusion with the people just about to begin watching the first half of Season 2.

Just to clarify (for AVS purposes):

Season 2: 10 episodes aired on SciFi, about to air on UHD.
Season 2.5: Remaining 10 episodes of Season 2 about to air on SciFi.

I labeled it 2.5 to avoid confusion with the people just about to begin watching the first half of Season 2.

Just to clarify (for AVS purposes):

Season 2: 10 episodes aired on SciFi, about to air on UHD.
Season 2.5: Remaining 10 episodes of Season 2 about to air on SciFi.

whoa! the first 10 eps of season 2 are going to air on UHD? can you spare me the time to look and tell me when?

thanks!

1/1/06

Battlestar Galactica Season 2 Universal HD No Sci-Fi spoilers please (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=617850)

I labeled it 2.5 to avoid confusion with the people just about to begin watching the first half of Season 2.

Just to clarify (for AVS purposes):

Season 2: 10 episodes aired on SciFi, about to air on UHD.
Season 2.5: Remaining 10 episodes of Season 2 about to air on SciFi.


Thanks. I was worried I missed some episodes!

I wish TW had UHD... I'm stuck watching on Sci-Fi (non-HD)

Thanks. I was worried I missed some episodes!

I wish TW had UHD... I'm stuck watching on Sci-Fi (non-HD)
IME, the UHD picture quality was about as good as the DVD set. Also, about 1/3 of the time, only the rear audio channels came through as well. So, yes, it's a bummer, but not as much of a bummer as you might think! :)

Later,
Bill

IME, the UHD picture quality was about as good as the DVD set. Also, about 1/3 of the time, only the rear audio channels came through as well. So, yes, it's a bummer, but not as much of a bummer as you might think! :)

Later,
Bill
That was my take on it as well and I got blasted for stating as such months back..the UHD PQ is simply not that great at all.


edited to add UHD on DirecTV

same here.. not much better than the dvd

That was my take on it as well and I got blasted for stating as such months back..the UHD PQ is simply not that great at all.

I'm just glad that I didnt wait till now JUST so I could watch it in HD. Its not good at all. pq-wise.

Let me guess: you liked Starship Troopers? ;)
LOL! I saw ST for the first time this summer. It must be a really deep movie because it went right over my head. I didn't get it at all.

I saw it last night too.
I agree, the PQ was just slightly better than the DVD release. Scenes in the CIC varied from ok to quite good. Scenes in the hangar deck were wery grainy.

One thing to remember, the pilot episode(s) were shot on film in 2003.
The series episodes are all shot on digital HD tape.... so maybe the first season 2 series episode (Scattered) showing tonight will be better..... maybe.

The new episodes start back up tonight!

Resurrection Ship (Part 1)... Original Air Date: Jan 06, 2006

LOL! I saw ST for the first time this summer. It must be a really deep movie because it went right over my head. I didn't get it at all.What's not to get? Simplistic crypto-fascist Heinlein drivel :D.

The new episodes start back up tonight!

Resurrection Ship (Part 1)... Original Air Date: Jan 06, 2006I caught tonight's episode... this show is so "fracking" good... almost as good as "Lost!" Why isn't the Sci Fi Channel broadcast in HD?

It is -- well, sort of (http://www.universalhd.com/Series/#BATTLESTAR_GALACTICA). :D

My cable provider added UNI-HD to their channel line-up recently, and I've enjoyed watching some of the "back" episodes of BSG... unfortunately, even in HD, it's not quite as enjoyable watching repeats versus "new" programs.

Wow - another excellent episode. I still think this is one of the best dramas on tv, regardless of genre.

Baltar's lover's clone asking him to kill her, Adama realizing he has to kill his superior officer, Starbuck's conflict of being asked to assasinate the Admiral whom she agrees with on strategy by her mentor and father figure - this show goes deep into personal conflicts and loyalties.
All this topped off with a brilliant scene intertwining both Captain's instructions on assasinating each other.

I think when it comes down to it, Starbuck will do it and The Admiral's first officer will not. Knowing this show, these events will happen simultaneously.

I sure wish I got this in HD.

I fully agree... with the exception of "Lost" which is still my favorite TV show... what "floored" me last night was when we learned that Admiral Cain had "stripped" the surviving Colonial fleet ships of their weapons, jump drives & spare parts and then "enlisted" those civilians considered to be desirable while executing the families of those who wouldn't cooperate... this "bitc#" is "brutal."

I really enjoyed the closing scenes with Cain & Adama as each plotted the other's assassination.

I fully agree... with the exception of "Lost" which is still my favorite TV show... what "floored" me last night was when we learned that Admiral Cain had "stripped" the surviving Colonial fleet ships of their weapons, jump drives & spare parts and then "enlisted" those civilians considered to be desirable while executing the families of those who wouldn't cooperate... this "bitc#" is "brutal."

I really enjoyed the closing scenes with Cain & Adama as each plotted the other's assassination.


Yes, she's one mean mutha....

Brinksmanship strategy. I am not willing to compromise, so I plot a path to an extreme where no one is likely to go as far as I will, and I go there immediately. It works well until you push an opponent to his brink, or he is made aware of the endgame...

v/r,
C-F

Naw, I think she is just psychotic and has lost her own humanity down the drain of battling Cylons. She reminds me of a one General George Armstrong Custer...

Wow - another excellent episode. I still think this is one of the best dramas on tv, regardless of genre.

I disagree; It is the best show on TV regardless of genre. :)

Exactly! :) It is definately not a 'sane' or 'humane' strategy. It is effective and mostly efficient (cost-wise), but failure is normally catastrophic. Sometimes you want or need folks like that out at the pointy end of the stick. Sometimes they fail.

v/r,
C-F

Exactly! :) It is definately not a 'sane' or 'humane' strategy. It is effective and mostly efficient (cost-wise), but failure is normally catastrophic. Sometimes you want or need folks like that out at the pointy end of the stick. Sometimes they fail.

v/r,
C-F
True. It's interesting to see the differences in philosophy between the military that has been with the civilians and the one that hasn't. The Adama group "seems" to be much further along in their understanding of the Cylons than the Kane group. I also can't help but think that amongst the Adama group there are many that are beginning to struggle with the seeming "humanity" of some of the Cylons. I think Adama in particular is conflicted a lot about Sharon, the Chief and Helo are certainly "guilty" of showing a degree of empathy, and of course, Baltar is way ahead of all of them in understanding even though what he knows may be just a little part of the whole. This sort of thing played out a bit in Blade Runner and of course has played out in real history itself.

Great show, it's a shame so many folks are only seeing the surface, just another scifi space show, although the TV critics have finally started to tout the show you have to wonder if that is more a pack mentality. Many have exhibited a depth of understanding of what the show is really all about, so that is encouraging.

True. It's interesting to see the differences in philosophy between the military that has been with the civilians and the one that hasn't. The Adama group "seems" to be much further along in their understanding of the Cylons than the Kane group. I also can't help but think that amongst the Adama group there are many that are beginning to struggle with the seeming "humanity" of some of the Cylons. I think Adama in particular is conflicted a lot about Sharon, the Chief and Helo are certainly "guilty" of showing a degree of empathy, and of course, Baltar is way ahead of all of them in understanding even though what he knows may be just a little part of the whole. This sort of thing played out a bit in Blade Runner and of course has played out in real history itself.

Great show, it's a shame so many folks are only seeing the surface, just another scifi space show, although the TV critics have finally started to tout the show you have to wonder if that is more a pack mentality. Many have exhibited a depth of understanding of what the show is really all about, so that is encouraging.


Just the fact that the series was picked up for a 3rd. season of 20 Episodes before the end of the 2nd. season shows how good it is doing.

Excellent! I either missed that or forgot it somehow..(age thing) :p

Damn, I wish I had know this was airing on NBC. Is there any listing of NBC's planned HD airings of BSG? I'm on Comcast and don't get UHD for the older eps.

For me, this is the best show on TV, and it's torture watching it in SD on crappy sci-fi channel. I don't watch anything else in SD, since Lost, CSI, and 24 are all in glorious HD.

Damn, I wish I had know this was airing on NBC. Is there any listing of NBC's planned HD airings of BSG? I'm on Comcast and don't get UHD for the older eps.

For me, this is the best show on TV, and it's torture watching it in SD on crappy sci-fi channel. I don't watch anything else in SD, since Lost, CSI, and 24 are all in glorious HD.

Are they showing it on NBC in HD? Anybody know when? Now that would be something to record...

Are they showing it on NBC in HD? Anybody know when? Now that would be something to record...

Pilot / Mini - series available on DVD.

All Season 1 Episodes are on DVD.

Season 2 Episodes 201-210 are available on DVD

Season 2 Episode 211 just aired on Jan. 06, 2006

Season 2 Episode 212 will air Jan. 13, 2006 on SCI-FI...

The DVD's are well worth the $$$$$

Pilot / Mini - series available on DVD.

All Season 1 Episodes are on DVD.

Season 2 Episodes 201-210 are available on DVD

Season 2 Episode 211 just aired on Jan. 06, 2006

Season 2 Episode 212 will air Jan. 13, 2006 on SCI-FI...

The DVD's are well worth the $$$$$


I meant on NBC in HD....not on DVD (which I own all of)

Since I also don't have UHD, I have ot stick to non-digital SD viewing on Sci-Fi (which suck)

I only saw the season 1 finale on NBC in HD because it was a 1-time thing to get more viewers over to Sci-Fi/UHD right before Season 2 started.

I only saw the season 1 finale on NBC in HD because it was a 1-time thing to get more viewers over to Sci-Fi/UHD right before Season 2 started.
Yeah, NBC showed it on a Saturday I think, didn't they show 2 episodes? I thought they did the mini-series and then another episode, can't remember...

Yeah, I think the mini-series also aired on NBC in HD at the very beginning.

Yeah, I think the mini-series also aired on NBC in HD at the very beginning.

It was, however it was chopped up to meet network Commercial requirements.

It was, however it was chopped up to meet network Commercial requirements.

Although that was criminal, I have to say the OTA from our local NBC station looked way better than the UHD version.

Man, I'd love a 3-day pass aboard that resurrection ship. :)

Man, I'd love a 3-day pass aboard that resurrection ship. :)

That's Bad CPanther95 :D

Exterminate, Exterminate! Exterminate, Exterminate! :rolleyes:

That's Bad CPanther95 :D

Didn't mean to offend. Just to be clear, I wouldn't force them to do anything against their will. My assumption was that they were all unconscious. :D

I have a question for the group, Did anyone recognize who Admiral Caine was zooming in on, with the photo's from Starbuck's recon to the cylon fleet?

Was it a #6/Gina Model or was it a Caine Model? Afterall durring the "bring you up to date" show, Tricia H. did mention that one of her characters kill's another cylon spy.....

Definitely looked like a fresh, hot, batch of #6s in storage.

Definitely looked like a fresh, hot, batch of #6s in storage.

2 tickets to the cylon recreation ship, I mean resurrection ship :rolleyes: Please

is it friday yet?

When will someone do a sci-fi soap opera that airs Monday - Friday? (hint, Hint)

:) :D :) :D :)

They could do a new "evil twin" episode once a week and it wouldn't seem as hokey as it is on normal soaps. :)

guys, can you please watch spoilers...even supposed spoilers...thanks

just like to watch the show and actually see the surprises :)

Haven't seen any spoilers here. Even supposed spoilers.

eh maybe it was the other thread, but still, just please place spoiler tags if you want to talk about anyting spoilerrific...

I'm just suprised with the buzz/ratings for the show that NBC hasn't found a way to use it. Even if it does mean "dumping" it in as "filler" on a Friday or Saturday night.

A ship full of Boomers, #6s and Lucy Lawless' character? Ahoooooga!

I think when it comes down to it, Starbuck will do it..
Thats not twisted enough for BSG!

I saw a trailer for the conclusion episode, and it showed a gun to the head of Kain- the wrists/hands holding that gun had marks on them- like someone who's been in restraints for some time!! Like a certain prisoner aboard the Peggy
...... the plot thickens :eek: :eek: :eek:



I tried to post with some spoiler info, but I Couldn't get the spoiler thing working right, so I removed it after about 2 minutes.
Got some help in the test post area and now no-spoil! :D

Thats not twisted enough for BSG!

I saw a trailer for the conclusion episode, and it showed a gun to the head of Kain- the wrists/hands holding that gun had marks on them- like someone who's been in restraints for some time!! Like a certain prisoner aboard the Peggy
...... the plot thickens :eek: :eek: :eek:



I tried to post with some spoiler info, but I Couldn't get the spoiler thing working right, so I removed it after about 2 minutes.
Got some help in the test post area and now no-spoil! :D


THANKS! :)

A ship full of Boomers, #6s and Lucy Lawless' character? Ahoooooga!

The Lawless clones can handle the lotion and snack runs for all I care. :)

Better safe than sorry, but that wouldn't be considered a spoiler since it was in the previews for next week's show.

Better safe than sorry, but that wouldn't be considered a spoiler since it was in the previews for next week's show.


yeah but some of us don't watch those previews (except when you can't help yourself)...and if I do, I don't watch them closely...they spoil the show too much...I almost wish they didn't show previews...

That's where we've always drawn the line. After the show, people want to discuss the direction of the show, and that invariably factors in what was shown in the previews for the next episode. Since the vast majority watch the previews - and we assume the producers won't show anything that will ruin the next show - that's where we draw the line.

I gotcha I gotcha...but when you notice minute details that could possibly spoil the climax of the next episode, I just ask that a little tact be used when posting...thats all I'm asking for...

I feel your pain - I wish I hadn't read that spoiler.

I found it interesting that the pres. said she'd like one of those nice young Cylon bodies fresh off the Res. ship... Wonder if there's anything to that??
Looks like she's near the end, it would be a shame to write her off....

I found it interesting that the pres. said she'd like one of those nice young Cylon bodies fresh off the Res. ship... Wonder if there's anything to that??
Looks like she's near the end, it would be a shame to write her off....


See Episode 2-13

I sure wish NBC would air BSG instead of SCI-FI channel.

I wonder if they will reveal more clone models soon? Any idea what the Lucy Lawless model is up to?

I agree with the sentiments expressed by others that BSG may be the best series on TV. I had been waiting for it with baited breath ever since the show went on hiatus last September. Man, was I ever not disappointed. What great writing! Admiral Helena Cain may be the scariest character i have run across since Dracula. She is one creepy lady. President Laura Roslin is equally tough minded but she is sane.

I hate not being able to see BSG in HD but i do appreciate that SciFi Channel shows it in OAR. That way I can at least zoom the image so that it fills my screen.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by others that BSG may be the best series on TV. I had been waiting for it with baited breath ever since the show went on hiatus last September. Man, was I ever not disappointed. What great writing! Admiral Helena Cain may be the scariest character i have run across since Dracula. She is one creepy lady. President Laura Roslin is equally tough minded but she is sane.

I hate not being able to see BSG in HD but i do appreciate that SciFi Channel shows it in OAR. That way I can at least zoom the image so that it fills my screen.


AMEN!

I feel your pain - I wish I hadn't read that spoiler.
Me too. Channel your inner ADD. I successfully buried it after reading last season's Boomer spoiler somewhere by mistake - of course, I had more time to forget...

v/r,
C-F

BSG previewed for Air Force personnel. Nice touch!

"The Season 2 premiere episode of Battlestar Galactica was shown a day early -- Jan. 5 --to approximately 200 eager “Blaze Team” members.

“This is the first time we have done a showing like this at a military base,” said Michael Pilon, an NBC Universal manager of affiliate promotion. "

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123014009

How do we know that original Baltar on Caprica is the same as Baltar on the Galactica? The whole implanted chip vs. hallucination concept doesn't work (for me.) Remember, "Some Cylons are programmed to think they *are* human."

Furthermore, I suspect that part of the "Cylon plan" is to ultimately create a hybrid Cylon/Human race which is why the Cylons were putting Caprica-Boomer and Helo together. Writers rarely develop a plot line without an ultimate payoff ;)

I think that Six 'saved' Baltar when the thermo nuclear devices went off on Caprica in the first episode. That scene of Six pushing the head of Baltar down before the explosion hits, is replayed in the beginning credits of every episode. Six must have downloaded Baltar's mind before the two of them were destroyed. I think that they cloned his body and somehow the Six personality is mixed into Baltar's cloned body. That is how he sees Six while no one else can. Six had a mission to get security codes to the Cylons, but her fondness for Baltar made her save him. Has anyone else got any other ideas?

Less then 23 Hours to go till Episode 2x12 :)

I think that Six 'saved' Baltar when the thermo nuclear devices went off on Caprica in the first episode. That scene of Six pushing the head of Baltar down before the explosion hits, is replayed in the beginning credits of every episode. Six must have downloaded Baltar's mind before the two of them were destroyed. I think that they cloned his body and somehow the Six personality is mixed into Baltar's cloned body. That is how he sees Six while no one else can. Six had a mission to get security codes to the Cylons, but her fondness for Baltar made her save him. Has anyone else got any other ideas?

That makes the most sense I've heard yet. It's always been one of the great mysteries of this show: is she really there?
Did Baltar ever test himself with his designed Cylon detector blood test? It seems if above were true, it would be positive.

I agree with LiveLite. Also, if this is the case, they could use this to "fix" President Laura Rosilen and then she could be in "remission" at the 11th hour. :)

I don't think Baltar can be a Cylon. If the Cylons could easily clone any human, especially as accelerated as they'd have to do it to come up with a cloned Baltar, don't you think they'd have more than 12 models?

But then, I don't think Deckard was a replicant, either. ;)

The blood based Cylon detector is worthless. They need to take that dead Sharon model out of the morgue an dissect that toaster down to 1 inch samples. They are obviously like 99% organic but somewhere, someplace inside that Cylon is a chip or something. Rip out her spine find out what makes it glow. Something. I really can't belive the writers haven't addressed this. I have no moral problem with dissecting a live cylon, but there should be no reason at all the dead Sharon hasn't been cut down into like million pieces. It seems like such an obvious thing to do. Something is in there. When they find it they can figure out a way to detect it.

But then, I don't think Deckard was a replicant, either. ;)

They need to give Adama the line, "It's too bad she won't live." as an homage to that movie. :rolleyes:

Six had an ongoing relation with Baltar for some time and was getting his DNA by 'direct injection', if you know what I mean. The Cylons had time to clone him in the Resurrection ship prior to the attack. Six may have 'saved' Baltars mind during the attack because of his 'usefulness' to the Cylons more than her fondness for him. BSG is an interesting series and the writers are not going to give up a lot of information too fast. That is what makes it so interesting.

I think the detector found every Cylon that Dr. Baltar had the nerve to... And I doubt Commander Adama is feeling disposed to autopsy Sharon right now. He could be convinced to, but you are right, someone should have been clamoring for it. Maybe everyone assumes good old Doctor Baltar is on the case...

v/r,
C-F

I think the detector found every Cylon that Dr. Baltar had the nerve to... And I doubt Commander Adama is feeling disposed to autopsy Sharon right now. He could be convinced to, but you are right, someone should have been clamoring for it. Maybe everyone assumes good old Doctor Baltar is on the case...

v/r,
C-F

She is pregnant with a human child, and has been a source of useful intelligence. After the baby is born and she ceases to be useful, get ready for Hot Alien Autopsy

I don't think Baltar can be a Cylon. If the Cylons could easily clone any human, especially as accelerated as they'd have to do it to come up with a cloned Baltar, don't you think they'd have more than 12 models?

But then, I don't think Deckard was a replicant, either. ;)

The unicorn proves he was darnit!

She is pregnant with a human child, and has been a source of useful intelligence. After the baby is born and she ceases to be useful, get ready for Hot Alien Autopsy
We don't know it's a human child do we? All we know is that she is pregnant. I'd be surprised if it doesn't turn out to a hybrid of sorts. When Six was "showing" the baby to Baltar on Kobal I got the distinct impression that it was something different, something that would be the future of life, neither Cylon nor human.

I think that Six 'saved' Baltar when the thermo nuclear devices went off on Caprica in the first episode. That scene of Six pushing the head of Baltar down before the explosion hits, is replayed in the beginning credits of every episode. Six must have downloaded Baltar's mind before the two of them were destroyed. I think that they cloned his body and somehow the Six personality is mixed into Baltar's cloned body. That is how he sees Six while no one else can. Six had a mission to get security codes to the Cylons, but her fondness for Baltar made her save him. Has anyone else got any other ideas?

I tried floating that boat a while ago when they aired the original movie: that Baltar couldn't have survived that nuclear attack merely by a "duck and cover". When we see Baltar next on Caprica, he has a couple of scars, but that's it.

Since the brain scan didn't uncover a "chip" in his brain, you can believe that Baltar is:

a) crazy
b) seeing #6 as an "angel" of "god" as she claimed
c) crazy
d) somehow linked into the hive mind of the Cylons (oops, sorry, those were the Borg)
e) crazy

The blood based Cylon detector is worthless. They need to take that dead Sharon model out of the morgue an dissect that toaster down to 1 inch samples. They are obviously like 99% organic but somewhere, someplace inside that Cylon is a chip or something. Rip out her spine find out what makes it glow. Something. I really can't belive the writers haven't addressed this. I have no moral problem with dissecting a live cylon, but there should be no reason at all the dead Sharon hasn't been cut down into like million pieces. It seems like such an obvious thing to do. Something is in there. When they find it they can figure out a way to detect it.

Well, in the original movie, wasn't Adama suggesting that the radiation on the station was affecting the Cylon's silica brain?

I beg to differ - I practiced "Duck & Cover" in elementary schools on military bases all around the world. The whole point was to protect us in the event of a nuclear attack. Granted you need to have one of those chair/desk combos over your head for it to work - but I'd assume a Cylon would be an adequate substitution.

Maybe he just put on his tin-foil hat!
We all know how tin foil stops X-rays and such :D :D

Under 6 Hours to go till 2x12! :)

CPanther95 can you turn on Polls for this thread?

It's a BIG night for BSG fans... :)

I said the same thing each week about the NYG until the "wheels-came-off" :eek: last weekend. :(

It's a BIG night for BSG fans... :)

So say we all!

I said the same thing each week about the NYG until the "wheels-came-off" :eek: last weekend. :(

Glad we could help. :p

I tried floating that boat a while ago when they aired the original movie: that Baltar couldn't have survived that nuclear attack merely by a "duck and cover". When we see Baltar next on Caprica, he has a couple of scars, but that's it.

Since the brain scan didn't uncover a "chip" in his brain, you can believe that Baltar is:

a) crazy
b) seeing #6 as an "angel" of "god" as she claimed
c) crazy
d) somehow linked into the hive mind of the Cylons (oops, sorry, those were the Borg)
e) crazy

1. Actually "Duck & Cover" works if you are far enough away from the bomb judging by the time it takes the blast wave to hit Baltar's house after the detonation, he ain't close.

2. The "chip" may be somewhere else- connected to the spinal cord...?(love that Cylon in heat effect.) Besides it just seems to me that #6 gives Baltar advance notice on a number of upcoming events which could also mean "b" and Baltar is a prophet.
;)

1. Actually "Duck & Cover" works if you are far enough away from the bomb judging by the time it takes the blast wave to hit Baltar's house after the detonation, he ain't close.


:D :D

He was easily close enough to be vaporized. They still don't do that ridiculous "duck and cover" thing in schools anymore do they?

:D :D

They still don't do that ridiculous "duck and cover" thing in schools anymore do they?

Sure they do and milk for the week still only costs you a dime. :D

I beg to differ - I practiced "Duck & Cover" in elementary schools on military bases all around the world. The whole point was to protect us in the event of a nuclear attack.Right. I thought the prevaling idea was that 6 saved Baltar, not the other way around. She tells him to "Get Down!" just as a projectile strikes his house (she is incredibly quick and strong). Then her programming/consciousness was downloaded into his brain, or spine, or something. At least that's what I gathered from the mini-series.

SG-1 & SG-A now seem to drag for me. BSG just can not come quick enough now....

21 Min togo.....

I couldn't wait and listened to the podcast for tonights episode. WOW works.

Something tells me a US Military base in West Germany is not likely to be on the periphery (sp?) of a nuclear blast had an all out nuclear war broke out during the cold war. ;)

Show TIME :) :)

Can anyone else just hear Apollo saying, "Just how many kinds of stupid are you?"

Something tells me a US Military base in West Germany is not likely to be on the periphery (sp?) of a nuclear blast had an all out nuclear war broke out during the cold war. ;)

Did "Bert the Turtle" teach you how to duck & cover?
:p

Danm, I never got to fly the Blackbird! :(

Would someone please smack StarBuck upside the head and snap her back to reality.

"The Fleet would have been dead if Cain had survived and retained Fleet Cmd."

Only one word describes BSG


EPIC


incredible episode

Only one word describes BSG


EPIC


incredible episode

Damn Straight! :cool:

Great episode, Battlestar Galactica continues to top itself. Very good soundtrack tonight as well.

In the previews, what is it that Baltar says about the Cylon? I played it 2 times and couldn't make it out.

Great episode, Battlestar Galactica continues to top itself. Very good soundtrack tonight as well.

In the previews, what is it that Baltar says about the Cylon? I played it 2 times and couldn't make it out.

excellent soundtrack....incredibly different and moving...I loved it

[In the previews, what is it that Baltar says about the Cylon? I played it 2 times and couldn't make it out.[/QUOTE]




Oh good I'm not losing my hearing! I tried to understand what he said but still couldn't hear it clearly ! :rolleyes:

She is pregnant with a human child, and has been a source of useful intelligence. After the baby is born and she ceases to be useful, get ready for Hot Alien Autopsy

Not disect the active Sharon. Disect the dead one in the morgue. They have two. Even better would be some comparitive anatomy by disecting an active one next to a dead one.

Did I read the end of the last episode right? Are Chief and Helo just released back to the ship? Totally free? I just don't see how that can happen. They HAVE to stand trial for killing that other officer. And besides, they have been both so corrupted by Cylon Sharon that they just can not be trusted. Especially the Chief. First, he covered up for the first Cylon Sharon when she was blowing stuff up on the ship. Then he covered up the Fragging of Racetrack on Kobal. Now he is involved in the death of Lt. Thorne from the Pegasus. These too guys have to be stripped of rank and sent to Zariks prison ship. If they are back on duty next episode then I'll be very disappointed in Ron Moore.

And I don't want to get into a big moral thing here, but I think it will be hard for those two to justify their actions to a tribunal of officers and men from the two ships. Adama himself set the precedent when he didn't charge Callie with "murder" when she killed the first Sharon. If you can't murder a machine, you can't rape one either. At least in the legal moral universe of the show. The debate is a little different from the viewers perspective.

Are Chief and Helo just released back to the ship? Totally free? I just don't see how that can happen.
Looks that way :confused: :confused:
Maybe they'll clear that up in the next episode.
Also, where's Gina? You can't just shoot a flag officer and there's no search for the killer.
This episode left a lot of loose ends that need to be tied up- looks like they ran short of time again. Seems to be an ongoing problem with this series. On a recent interview, one of the writers said the season 2.5 final episode will tie up a lot of loose ends (but knowing BSG-probably create some others).

Best line from last night:
Cain to Gina "Frack You!!" Gina: "you're not my type" BANG!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

(Crashdown not Racetrack). Adama himself set the precedent when he didn't charge Callie with "murder" when she killed the first Sharon. If you can't murder a machine, you can't rape one either. At least in the legal moral universe of the show. The debate is a little different from the viewers perspective.I am not so sure of a consistent or uniform "legal moral" system. The point is that they are all working that out. Admiral Adama also apologized to [Caprica]Boomer for the attempted rape.

I believe that you can see Admiral Adama's position if you consider cylons to be a favored pet. SPC Cally's punishment was probably appropriate if she had shot someone's dog. In a sense this was inevitable, someone who would not get incised about the impending rape/torture/death of your dog, would be a cold hearted bastard that would not get a Cylon girlfriend - no heart strings to pull on...

The CPO and LT may be at liberty on the Galactica (or not - they could have been escorted) - it does not mean they are not still in the queue for punishment. The operating concern for the CPO and LT is to prove is that they believed that a 'rape' was taking place. The fact that an officer died as the result of their actions is not in contest, their motivation and the endstate they intended - do have a factor to play in punishment. And Admiral Adama now has twice as many positions to fill and only a limited pool to pull from...

I thought it apropos that Starbuck eulogized Admiral Cain, and what she said. Starbuck was taking advice from the Admiral and was trying to understand the decisions the Admiral made. Notice the two women in power making the tough calls.

Great episode last night. I was worried Lee would die out there, but afterwords when he said he didn't want to make it, I wondered what is going on in his head. I also thought it was a great turn of events that Cain(Kain?) and Adama backed down, but that Baltar's actions resulted in the necessary outcome (not the first time he's hidden the identity of Cylons, aided/abedded them (ahem, no pun intended), etc.).

I also liked how the attack, despite its massive scale, was downplayed (possibly due to budget constraints) and only a part of the show, with the character interactions and story development taking the lead. The attack was cool though, especially seeing the Vipers do bombing runs down the length of Resurrection, and the giant cannons shoot the star ships.

Did I read the end of the last episode right? Are Chief and Helo just released back to the ship? Totally free? I just don't see how that can happen. They HAVE to stand trial for killing that other officer. And besides, they have been both so corrupted by Cylon Sharon that they just can not be trusted. Especially the Chief. First, he covered up for the first Cylon Sharon when she was blowing stuff up on the ship. Then he covered up the Fragging of Racetrack on Kobal. Now he is involved in the death of Lt. Thorne from the Pegasus. These too guys have to be stripped of rank and sent to Zariks prison ship. If they are back on duty next episode then I'll be very disappointed in Ron Moore.

There is a counterargument to be made for freeing the Chief and Helo: they were preventing a rape when they attacked LT Thorne and his death was accidental. An accidental death of an attempted rapist at the hands of rescuers is NOT criminal misconduct and the argument that Sharon is "just a machine" doesn't get it, either.

Anyway, this is just one more example of the marvelous ambiguities that arise in this wonderful show.

I also liked how the attack, despite its massive scale, was downplayed (possibly due to budget constraints) and only a part of the show, with the character interactions and story development taking the lead. The attack was cool though, especially seeing the Vipers do bombing runs down the length of Resurrection, and the giant cannons shoot the star ships.

That was pretty cool, I like any other geek likes the eye candy, just wished it was HD though maybe some day.

I am surprised that no one is talking about the KISS. Was Adama's kiss to the president intimate, or just a friendly kiss, or does he have feelings for her? Or is it symbolic like he is the father of the fleet, and she is the mother?

Rthoreau

Also before Cain died when she was in her office before she was shot. They were showing her taking off her uniform, did anyone else think that maybe she was a Cylon? I was just waiting for her to pull a wire or something out of her neck, or arm and transmit a signal back to Clyon HQ.

I am still waiting for Adama to be a Clyon master doner, like the head Clyon is based on Adama. This happened when Adama was younger and donated his time and dna to a military project.

Rthoreau

That was pretty cool, I like any other geek likes the eye candy, just wished it was HD though maybe some day.

I am surprised that no one is talking about the KISS. Was Adama's kiss to the president intimate, or just a friendly kiss, or does he have feelings for her? Or is it symbolic like he is the father of the fleet, and she is the mother?

Rthoreau

Don't read too much into it. She's dying. The kiss was a brief connection, an affirmation of humanity after the resolution of a situation rife with intended brutality and despair. With those two, outright hostility in the beginning was replaced with grudging admiration, which now has grown into genuine affection. Both these characters have, to use Adama's words, "come a long way".

Last night's episode was simply amazing. Zoic continues to to fantastic work with the limited basic-cable budget; the space battle, while brief, was awesome. The characters continue to grow and change, but always within the parameters of their individual personalities (What's up with Apollo now? Has his brush with death changed him?). I don't think there's anything better on the tube right now; I just pity the fools that aren't watching this show. :cool:

Last night's episode was quite good, as usual, yet I had a few lingering questions after it and I'd like some other's reaction:

The Pegasus and Galactica are able to take out TWO basestars as well as the Resurrection ship with so little damage to either? Did anyone else think that was a stretch?

I'm trying to understand why both Adama and Kane both changed their plans to take out the other. Maybe one, but why would both have a change of heart? In the case of Adama, by not taking out Kane, wasn't he ignoring the order of the President, since it seemed from the previous episode that it was her idea?

The Pegasus and Galactica are able to take out TWO basestars as well as the Resurrection ship with so little damage to either? Did anyone else think that was a stretch?

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. There were lots of Raiders flitting about that would have had to engage the Colonial Vipers - certainly they would have lost a significant number of ships. And some of the battle shots showed explosions over large sections of the Galactica and Pegasus. The aftermath of the battle must have been costly to the Colonials, but it was certainly glossed over. Oh well, won't lose sleep over it; and they may deal with it in another episode.

m trying to understand why both Adama and Kane both changed their plans to take out the other. Maybe one, but why would both have a change of heart? In the case of Adama, by not taking out Kane, wasn't he ignoring the order of the President, since it seemed from the previous episode that it was her idea?

I think Cane (that's the correct spelling BTW) may have deduced the assassination plot against her by Starbuck's obvious discomfort, sweating profusely, nervous-as-hell look. Then Starbuck takes a call from Adama, looks relieved, and leaves. It was only after that encounter that Cain called off her own plan. She figured it out.

Now, as for Adama, he finally comes to the conclusion that his plan would dehumanize everyone involved and he couldn't live with himself. He's come to these sort of belated conclusions before, of course. He would just have to deal with Cain another way, but he couldn't have her killed. Then Gina took care of the problem for him. As the Church Lady would say...."How conveeeenient! :)

I was ok with a light touch on the battle damage overall, but I would have thought that it would have been more evident in the CIC than Admiral Cain's single lurch on Pegasus. There should be some attention paid to building more Vipers or replacement [space]-frames if they are going to keep the sortie rate up.

I would have liked to see more of Admiral Cain before Gina's [literal] Deus ex Machina.

v/r,
C-F

She is not in the character page, but is referenced as Admiral Helena Cain in the SciFi website episode guide.

Now, as for Adama, he finally comes to the conclusion that his plan would dehumanize everyone involved and he couldn't live with himself. He's come to these sort of belated conclusions before, of course. He would just have to deal with Cain another way, but he couldn't have her killed. Then Gina took care of the problem for him. As the Church Lady would say...."How conveeeenient! :)
I think Adama's little talk with Sharon is what changed his mind, she reminded him of something he said years ago about humans, being worthy of life or something, can't remember the exact words, but I'm pretty sure that's when he made the decision to spare Cain.

This is just another example of how close these two races really are even though on the surface they hate each other, and I'm not so sure hate is the right word when it comes to the Cylons. Ignorance and blind faith plays a huge part in this show.

It's interesting to note that "progress" is being made in little steps. Adama, I am convinced, does not see Sharon as just a machine and is perplexed about how she can show human traits such as empathy. The prisoner No.6 obviously sees something in Baltar that may lead her to believe that humans are not all bad.

Great show.

Fantastic episode.

I wonder how long the Pegasus's presence will last. (But if anybody actually knows and has a spoiler -- I don't really want to now yet... :))

There is a counterargument to be made for freeing the Chief and Helo: they were preventing a rape when they attacked LT Thorne and his death was accidental. An accidental death of an attempted rapist at the hands of rescuers is NOT criminal misconduct and the argument that Sharon is "just a machine" doesn't get it, either.

Anyway, this is just one more example of the marvelous ambiguities that arise in this wonderful show.


Well, I still insist that they were only preventing the interrogation of a Cylon "Device" which is how just about every other person in the fleet will see it I would think. I would bet they would have a hard time arguing justifiable manslaughter to a courts martial. But it will make for good sci fi drama as the writers have characters debate the legal status of a Cylon and the protections they may be entitled too. What do you bet that their lawyer will end up being reveled as another Cylon model?

I have formed a fairly rigid opinion of the Cylons. I see them as machines, toasters if you will, that have committed planetary genocide several times over and are not entitled to any moral or legal protections. We can only estimate numbers, but they have killed probably tens of billions. I guess I can see how one misguided human can come to belive in their humanity but I fail to see how a group, as in the fleet, will see them that way. I want to smack Baltar sometimes when he hears Six whining about the deaths of thousands of Cylons after they have killed Billions of humans.

Good thoughtful comments. I like both of your suggestions.

Even though I thought Admiral Cain was still a tad over the edge, she was an experienced flag officer and probably did have good instincts about reading people.

Sharon's talk with Adama probably did get him thinking about how much of his humanity he was willing to sacrifice to achieve a goal. I think she has a strong influence on him since he is still struggling with the question of how he could have loved/admired/respected the being he knew as Sharon.

I guess I can see how one misguided human can come to belive in their humanity but I fail to see how a group, as in the fleet, will see them that way. I want to smack Baltar sometimes when he hears Six whining about the deaths of thousands of Cylons after they have killed Billions of humans.
You use "misguided" where I might use "enlightened", and as far as the rest of the fleet, that's why they have leaders, leaders who have proven they have made the right decisions in the past. If these leaders are showing that they are seeing the Cylons as possibly something more than machines, then the genpop might be more inclined to see them differently as well. Being that military structure is basically follow the leader, this would not be hard to accomplish.

It's a great show in that it shows how we who are watching perceive different things in different ways, makes for good TV. :)

Regarding Helo and the Chief, that was more an accidental death, possibly manslaughter at worst, but the extenuating circumstances should play heavy on any determination of guilt.

Well, I still insist that they were only preventing the interrogation of a Cylon "Device" which is how just about every other person in the fleet will see it I would think.

That's the great thing about the military, it doesn't matter how the rest of the fleet sees it. Only Adama's opinion matters.

I'm with swamp. As much as I like Boomer & Chief & Helo - from the proper perspective, the military should prosecute Chief & Helo. The last message the leaders want to send to the fleet, particularly the military, is that these robots should be given sympathy. They are machines, built by machines who are single-minded of purpose - they want the complete destruction of all mankind - and they damn near accomplished their goal with absolutely no warning.

If they were "enlightened", they surely would have sent one of many of their "human" copies to that ambassadors ship to try and open up a dialogue instead of launching an all out war. Capture them, find out what makes them tick, and kill them - unless you can manipulate them somehow. Don't let your guard down, and certainly do not place the life and welfare of the robots on par with the humans.

How would you suggest handling the same situation here on Earth if another species was able to accomplish the same thing (and weren't as hot looking as Boomer & #6)

Having said that, I'm glad they did what they did and are getting away with it. After all, the Cylons haven't messed with us yet. :)

I also agree that there is no question that the death was accidental at most the punishment would be some short confinement and a reduction in rank.

Honestly, I viewed the Admiral's conduct in this matter a bit puzzling. She had to impress civilians to fill out her own crew but decides to summarily execute 2 crewmen because some beloved interrogator gets killed. Who was more valuable to the survival of the fleet, a crack Chief of the Deck or some thug who likes to rape Cylons? You make the call!

As she said this is war and tough decisions had to be made. The tough call would have been to put them back on duty for the good of the Fleet and take the heat from her own crew for doing so instead of execution. This was a different situation from her earlier "tough decisions".

The execution of the first XO was for disobeying a direct order while the execution of families was done to get the people she needed to keep fighting against the Cylons. Though both calls were reprehensible at least in her mind she was doing what she thought was right to keep her ship in the "game". The execution of Helo and the Chief would serve only to seek revenge and piss off Adama.

I also agree that there is no question that the death was accidental at most the punishment would be some short confinement and a reduction in rank.

Not exactly a gun going off while cleaning it type of accident. His death was the direct result of a deliberate assault.

Not exactly a gun going off while cleaning it type of accident. His death was the direct result of a deliberate assault.

Understood, but again his "intent" was prevent the rape not to kill the guy. Anyway Helo would be guilty of what exactly?


You know an interesting follow up to this would be what if someone kills a Cylon in an act of premeditated murder but doesn't know that that person was a Cylon until after the fact? Now that would be interesting!

I view this almost the complete opposite as you.
I don't really remember or know if we know very many details of the XO incident. But even threatening let alone actually killing someones family who doesn't want to be in the military is beyond reprehensible, and I don't think the people they press into service this way would be very reliable.
But Helo and the Chiefs actions directly led to the death of a fellow officer at a time of war and it appears that what she did was within her authority, it was certainly in the presidents authority to space a cylon.

I also agree that there is no question that the death was accidental at most the punishment would be some short confinement and a reduction in rank.

Honestly, I viewed the Admiral's conduct in this matter a bit puzzling. She had to impress civilians to fill out her own crew but decides to summarily execute 2 crewmen because some beloved interrogator gets killed. Who was more valuable to the survival of the fleet, a crack Chief of the Deck or some thug who likes to rape Cylons? You make the call!

As she said this is war and tough decisions had to be made. The tough call would have been to put them back on duty for the good of the Fleet and take the heat from her own crew for doing so instead of execution. This was a different situation from her earlier "tough decisions".

The execution of the first XO was for disobeying a direct order while the execution of families was done to get the people she needed to keep fighting against the Cylons. Though both calls were reprehensible at least in her mind she was doing what she thought was right to keep her ship in the "game". The execution of Helo and the Chief would serve only to seek revenge and piss off Adama.

You know an interesting follow up to this would be what if someone kills a Cylon in an act of premeditated murder but doesn't know that that person was a Cylon until after the fact? Now that would be interesting!

Not murder.

I view this almost the complete opposite as you.
I don't really remember or know if we know very many details of the XO incident. But even threatening let alone actually killing someones family who doesn't want to be in the military is beyond reprehensible, and I don't think the people they press into service this way would be very reliable.
But Helo and the Chiefs actions directly led to the death of a fellow officer at a time of war and it appears that what she did was within her authority, it was certainly in the presidents authority to space a cylon.

Actually, I was't questioning her authority. This is war! Her decision to execute them seems a bit out of character based on previous decisions.

And as far as the impress civilians, the episode showed that the civilian deck chief was not made of the same stuff as the Chief. She would have certainly have known this. It would have made more sense for her character to want someone capable of keeping her Vipers flying above all else!

I have formed a fairly rigid opinion of the Cylons. I see them as machines, toasters if you will, that have committed planetary genocide several times over and are not entitled to any moral or legal protections. We can only estimate numbers, but they have killed probably tens of billions. I guess I can see how one misguided human can come to belive in their humanity but I fail to see how a group, as in the fleet, will see them that way. I want to smack Baltar sometimes when he hears Six whining about the deaths of thousands of Cylons after they have killed Billions of humans.Two opinions:
- As soon as there is a possibility that some [creature/creation] can change its behavioral pattern to something acceptable, they should be afforded the right to do so and survive (in the global sense). When they can reason independently they should be considered a [being] (with greater rights) and not an animal/machine. When a such a [being] will not behave in an acceptable manner, they should be treated no different than a human sociopath. Some creatures are too dangerous to live in social environments. Some motivated creatures are too dangerous to allow freedom or life. Determining the 'line' defining acceptable behavior between tyranny and anarchy is the grail of civilization.
- The acceptability of coercion of any type (torture, manipulation, etc.) against any type of [creature] should be carefully examined and vetted because the act can shift or skew what is considered acceptable for other types in the actor or viewers. While some can maintain distinctions and ethics, not everyone can; and in groups, people are generally worse than individuals.

The CPO and LT should probably be reduced, confined, and set to labor (making more Vipers). With an unquestioned enemy and a total-war effort, the Fleet probably has a better chance at setting conditions to rehabilitate more of the civilian prisoners than we do with our penal system.

Killing a Colonial without knowledge it was a cylon would be "attempted murder", the same as if we set up a sting for a sniper with a fake target here.

v/r,
C-F

Putting the Chief in charge after he killed one of her officers would cause such discontent that the Chief would be ineffective at his job. It would also be extremely out of character for ADM Kane.

Putting the Chief in charge after he killed one of her officers would cause such discontent that the Chief would be ineffective at his job. It would also be extremely out of character for ADM Kane.

Why? The attack took place on the Galactica not the Pegasus. THe people that work the deck of the Galactica were his people. He could have stil done his job.

Why exactly would it have been out of character for her????

- As soon as there is a possibility that some [creature/creation] can change its behavioral pattern to something acceptable, they should be afforded the right to do so and survive (in the global sense).

I don't consider a machine (even with some human characteristics) that was designed to kill all humans - and they have continued towards that goal - to have an "acceptable pattern of behavior".

Why? The attack took place on the Galactica not the Pegasus. THe people that work the deck of the Galactica were his people. He could have stil done his job.

Why exactly would it have been out of character for her????

You're assuming that she would not want her leadership philosophy to extend to all personnel under her command. She would not perform her duties with two separate styles to accomodate the Pegasus and Galactica as separate entities. People talk.

As fas as being out of character, she is a hardass disciplinarian who believes in blind loyalty to the chain of command or there are severe consequences. Giving them a pass for killing one of her officers would not fit with her previous actions at all.

You're assuming that she would not want her leadership philosophy to extend to all personnel under her command. She would not perform her duties with two separate styles to accomodate the Pegasus and Galactica as separate entities. People talk.

As fas as being out of character, she is a hardass disciplinarian who believes in blind loyalty to the chain of command or there are severe consequences. Giving them a pass for killing one of her officers would not fit with her previous actions at all.

In her previous actions, she stripped whatever resources she could find to help her ship! Do you think that she would discard a valuable resource because people "talked." It didn't keep people from talking when she killed her XO, and those families. It didn't stop the scuttlebutt about abandoning the civilian fleet she had.

Your right, she was a hardass and all but she would have not killed them unless of course she was really a Cylon after all
;)

Two opinions:
- As soon as there is a possibility that some [creature/creation] can change its behavioral pattern to something acceptable, they should be afforded the right to do so and survive (in the global sense). When they can reason independently they should be considered a [being] (with greater rights) and not an animal/machine. When a such a [being] will not behave in an acceptable manner, they should be treated no different than a human sociopath. Some creatures are too dangerous to live in social environments. Some motivated creatures are too dangerous to allow freedom or life. Determining the 'line' defining acceptable behavior between tyranny and anarchy is the grail of civilization.
- The acceptability of coercion of any type (torture, manipulation, etc.) against any type of [creature] should be carefully examined and vetted because the act can shift or skew what is considered acceptable for other types in the actor or viewers. While some can maintain distinctions and ethics, not everyone can; and in groups, people are generally worse than individuals.

The CPO and LT should probably be reduced, confined, and set to labor (making more Vipers). With an unquestioned enemy and a total-war effort, the Fleet probably has a better chance at setting conditions to rehabilitate more of the civilian prisoners than we do with our penal system.

Killing a Colonial without knowledge it was a cylon would be "attempted murder", the same as if we set up a sting for a sniper with a fake target here.

v/r,
C-F
Well put, I agree 100%.

Do you think that she would discard a valuable resource because people "talked."

No, you don't kill him because people talk - you kill him because he killed one of your "valuable resources". If you don't, you leave it in each individual's hands to determine what resources are worth saving and which ones are worth killing. That's a power Kane would prefer to keep to herself.

One step back - two steps forward.

Well put, I agree 100%.

Remind me never to put you in charge of the survival of the human race. ;)

I don't consider a machine (even with some human characteristics) that was designed to kill all humans - and they have continued towards that goal - to have an "acceptable pattern of behavior".
I think you are looking at it being a black and white, on or off situation. The Cylons are clearly not 100% machines as in our definition of a machine: metal, electronics, they certainly have a degree of flesh and blood type physiology and they also have the ability of self-awareness, which is clearly not a machine-like attribute.

What would you call a human with prosthetics and a pace maker...a human, or a machine...? ;)

Remind me never to put you in charge of the survival of the human race. ;)
:D :D

No, you don't kill him because people talk - you kill him because he killed one of your "valuable resources". If you don't, you leave it in each individual's hands to determine what resources are worth saving and which ones are worth killing. That's a power Kane would prefer to keep to herself.

One step back - two steps forward.

Valuable? He sure wasn't very valuable as a Cylon interrogator! Exactly what info did he acquire with his interrogation methods? Nada.

Valuable? He sure wasn't very valuable as a Cylon interrogator! Exactly what info did he acquire with his interrogation methods? Nada.
Exactly, but he sure felt she was more "human" than "machine", would he have tried the same stunt with one of the toasters..? ;) :)

Maybe with a rubber - or some other non-conductive material. ;)

It would also be extremely out of character for ADM Kane.

It's not Kane, it's Cain! With a "C", like in Cylon. (And no, I don't believe Cain was a Cylon; let's not go there.)

I think you are looking at it being a black and white, on or off situation. The Cylons are clearly not 100% machines as in our definition of a machine: metal, electronics, they certainly have a degree of flesh and blood type physiology and they also have the ability of self-awareness, which is clearly not a machine-like attribute.

What would you call a human with prosthetics and a pace maker...a human, or a machine...? ;)

If you woke up tomorrow and cockroaches had become self-aware, could speak, and had annihilated over 6 billion humans while you slept (all but 50,000). Then throughout the next week, you watched cockroaches kill even more humans whenever they came in contact with them.

Then they told you specifically that they would not stop hunting you and your family down until you were all dead - what "human rights" protections would you like to see what's left of the Congress (silver lining? ;) ) pass into law? And should it be illegal to just step on a cockroach whenever you see one?

I won't even touch on the rape scenario because if you ever catch some sick ba$tard $crewing a cockroach, he deserves a bolt in the head. :)

, a crack Chief of the Deck or some thug who likes to rape Cylons? You make the call!



Lt. Thorne seemed to be well more than "some thug". It was begining to sound in the last episode like Thorne saved the life of everybody on the Pegasus at one time or another. As for the intel, breaking the will of that number six Cylon is in and of itself good intel. Now they know that they can break the artificial psychology of a Cylon. And remember, he was acting under orders and the authority of Cain to extract information from the Cylon Device. Using a technique that was sactioned under his command and, since Sharon was a Cylon, not prohibited under the colonial equivilent of the UCMJ or legal code.

As people have pointed out, they have spaced cylons without due process and in the first episode left one that was mearly suspected to die on that station. Callie kills the first Sharon and its nothing but improper discharge of a firearm. From the point of view of the world that the show is in, Thornes "techniques" are not improper and his death is unjustified.

I think you are looking at it being a black and white, on or off situation. The Cylons are clearly not 100% machines as in our definition of a machine: metal, electronics, they certainly have a degree of flesh and blood type physiology and they also have the ability of self-awareness, which is clearly not a machine-like attribute.

What would you call a human with prosthetics and a pace maker...a human, or a machine...? ;)Just what exactly makes a cylon tick? Processor or (flesh & blood) human brain(?)

A clock? Tourette's? I give up. :p

Just what exactly makes a cylon tick? Processor or (flesh & blood) human brain(?)
Not enough facts in evidence yet to make a determination. Could be one of the above, both or it could be neither.

What makes a human "tick"..?

A clock? Tourette's? I give up. :p
:p

Just what exactly makes a cylon tick? Processor or (flesh & blood) human brain(?)

Precisely ... remember that the Cylon spine glows red when aroused and stimulated. that's either mechanical or chemical lumenesence ... perhaps tests need to be done on that.

Too many posters fail to think of decisions in the mindset and psyche of one in the BSG universe. Take the rape thing from a few episodes back ... too many people are all caught up on "oh rape is such a horrible thing" ... but remember well the words of Col Fisk who says "you can't rape a machine" ... and that's precisely it ... you can't rape a machine.

If you can't murder one (think Cally) then you sure as poop can't rape one.

So - what do we do in terms of continuity with Helo and Chief?

1. They got into a fight with an officer in a time of war. (And Fisk said that has a most severe penality on Pegasus).
2. During this fight, someone was killed.
3. Since you can't rape a machine, LT Thorne's methods were quite lawful.

These guys CANNOT go back to regular duty as if all is well. THEY KILLED A MAN

They need:

1. A trial.
2. A guilty verdict.
3. A sentence .. and if you want to be sympathetic fine - but they need reduction in rank, loss of any command they might have had, and a good helping of hard labor or other crap duty.,

we'll have to see how RDM writes this up in forthcoming episodes.

(my thanks to swamphhh for the invitation to avs forums to comment on this thread)

Welcome to the forum.

This wouldn't even be a debate if the Cylons weren't so hot looking. If they were the cockroaches from my previous example people would be grabbing for their cans of Raid.

This wouldn't even be a debate if the Cylons weren't so hot looking. If they were the cockroaches from my previous example people would be grabbing for their cans of Raid.

:) You have a valid point.

Not enough facts in evidence yet to make a determination. Could be one of the above, both or it could be neither.

What makes a human "tick"..?

Keenan, your absolutely right here. We as viewers don't really have all the facts. I don't think the Colonials do either until they cut up a Cylon. Obviously they must be very organic. Not just an organic skin on a combat chassis like in Terminator. Not fully synthetic like a Bishop or a Data. But organic enough to pass flight physicals, take blood tests and have x-rays.

But I don't think they are simple clones like say the "Tanks" from Space, Above and Beyond. They have shown too many mechanical features like the glowing spines, the fiber optic interface, and the deep space memory upload transmitter. They seem to posses some sort of artificial intelligence or internal computing power that can process code and upload it through the fiber interface. Their internal systems are affected by certian types of EM or radiation that don't effect humans. And finally they seem to posses non human levels of strength and stamina. To me this all adds up to machine. And a machine that loves and cares and thinks is just a machine with insanely great software. Even if they are really, really hot.

You know maybe if they hadn't nuked billions of people and were 3 laws safe or something we could talk. But in the Galactica universe, I say no mercy to the toasters.

swamp, what you say makes sense, but you can't punish/blame all of them (preparing FTL for an imediate jump). Caprica Sharon so far has done all she can to help the humans. There are defectors who have switched sides in past wars, why can't there be in this one? And if we can acept Data as sentient artificial life form composed of all inorganic material, why can't we acept Caprica Sharon as sentient artificial life form composed primarily of organic material, with her own will? She could easily have killed the commander and the president in Home Part 2, but made a point that it was her choice not too.
So it is a complicated question. The actual mechanical cylons, sure, blast them, as for the humanoid ones, a tough call and is in Adm Adama's hands now.

There is a counterargument to be made for freeing the Chief and Helo: they were preventing a rape when they attacked LT Thorne and his death was accidental. An accidental death of an attempted rapist at the hands of rescuers is NOT criminal misconduct and the argument that Sharon is "just a machine" doesn't get it, either.

You make a good point.

If it's not "rape" because the victim is just a "machine", then why do it? Rape would have no effect on a "machine", and thus the rape would be tactically pointless.

Rape is, by definition, an act of power and control, not sex.

If the point of the attack is to psychologically intimidate the "machine" to gain information, then you must admit that the "machine" can be psychologically influenced.

If the victim can be psychologically influenced, it really is rape.

~Dan

^^ I agree

In the movie Bicentenniel Man, Robin Williams' character Andrew Martin begins "life" as a full mechanical, yet over the span of 200 years has upgrades that take him closer and closer to becoming human.

The Cylons seem to have a need to become what they say they despise: human. For them, apparently "replicating" isn't good enough. They need to "reproduce" at the biological level. Yet, as they approach "humanity", they wind up with a "Sharon" instead of a "Sharon Model".

If the current Sharon is showing love, and making free moral choices to help humans in their fight against "her people", should she be placed in a more protective class of prisoner of war?

That may be where Adama and some others are struggling. Do you stick with the "once a toaster, always a toaster" and "the only good toaster is a dead toaster" philosophy, or begin to think that, as a class of being, Cylons in general are evil but THIS PARTICULAR Cylon is not. Tough call.

So if the bio-mechanical (or even if fully bio) body is not the determining factor - and it's the mind, or the "soul" - do you hold Caprica Boomer responsible for the attempted murder of Adama since that Boomer is now fully contained within Caprica Boomer?

You make a good point.

If it's not "rape" because the victim is just a "machine", then why do it? Rape would have no effect on a "machine", and thus the rape would be tactically pointless.

Rape is, by definition, an act of power and control, not sex.

If the point of the attack is to psychologically intimidate the "machine" to gain information, then you must admit that the "machine" can be psychologically influenced.

If the victim can be psychologically influenced, it really is rape.
Great answer....

You use "misguided" where I might use "enlightened", and as far as the rest of the fleet, that's why they have leaders, leaders who have proven they have made the right decisions in the past. If these leaders are showing that they are seeing the Cylons as possibly something more than machines, then the genpop might be more inclined to see them differently as well. Being that military structure is basically follow the leader, this would not be hard to accomplish.

It's a great show in that it shows how we who are watching perceive different things in different ways, makes for good TV. :)

Regarding Helo and the Chief, that was more an accidental death, possibly manslaughter at worst, but the extenuating circumstances should play heavy on any determination of guilt.

My point was that the couterargument exists that Helo and the Chief had committed no crime. I do not necessarily advocate that position. It's ambiguities like this, created by the brand new world of the Cylons, that makes BSG such a great show.

Welcome to the forum.

This wouldn't even be a debate if the Cylons weren't so hot looking. If they were the cockroaches from my previous example people would be grabbing for their cans of Raid.

I agree that the Cylons appearing to be human and in some cases, such as Sharon and No. 6, appearing to be beautiful women, does tend to generate some sympathy for them, which would not exist if they looked like "cockroaches." But there's another reason why the surviving humans have to be very careful in how they deal with the Cylons: there are less than 50,000 humans left alive but there are exponentially more Cylons who are currently hell bent on wiping out the rest of the humans. Isn't humankind's best chance of survival -- maybe its only chance -- reaching some sort of accommodation with the Cylons?

God, it's no wonder I love this show!

You make a good point.

If it's not "rape" because the victim is just a "machine", then why do it? Rape would have no effect on a "machine", and thus the rape would be tactically pointless.

Rape is, by definition, an act of power and control, not sex.

If the point of the attack is to psychologically intimidate the "machine" to gain information, then you must admit that the "machine" can be psychologically influenced.

If the victim can be psychologically influenced, it really is rape.

~Dan


Dan et al:

Think back to around the middle of Season 1 when they find the 'Leoben Model" floating around in one of the ships. They sent Starbuck in to "interrogate" it.

Basically, they have him strapped to a chair and they beat the hell out of it. Starve it. Strike it. Torture it.

... but is it torture? Do I have to go thru the same rationale as yours above? Since if I can also beat the snot out of one to get information - is that morally right too?

Where was the outrage when the Leoben Model was flushed out the airlock like it was garbage? Where was the mercy and charity when condemning a sentient being into the abyss?

Remember... the cylons have a plan. And part of that plan is going to include PsyOps as well. Getting Helo and Chief all warped up around her is part of the plan.

Let's not forget the "baby snapping neck" scene from the mini, either. Cylons are blood thirsty killers and will stop at nothing to defeat humanity. They deserve zero compassion.

swamp, what you say makes sense, but you can't punish/blame all of them (preparing FTL for an imediate jump). Caprica Sharon so far has done all she can to help the humans. There are defectors who have switched sides in past wars, why can't there be in this one? And if we can acept Data as sentient artificial life form composed of all inorganic material, why can't we acept Caprica Sharon as sentient artificial life form composed primarily of organic material, with her own will? She could easily have killed the commander and the president in Home Part 2, but made a point that it was her choice not too.
So it is a complicated question. The actual mechanical cylons, sure, blast them, as for the humanoid ones, a tough call and is in Adm Adama's hands now.

While I'm not ready to close the door on rights for sentient artificial life forms in every sci fi show or even our own future, I'm still very suspicious of Caprica Sharon. As they say in the opening credits, the Cylons have a plan. Are we so sure Sharon's actions are self will or the result of programming. An autonomous sub routine, as Data would say, to build trust and report until she gets another signal to go beserker. All it takes is one signal or her programing to reach a certian result and she's walking around Galactica like the Lost in Space robot shouting "Destroy Adama Family!

The one thing I remember any time I might feel sympathy for the Cylons is that they incinerated several billion humans and sent the rest on a run for their lives. They are down to the last 49,000. As the president said in the first episode, its about survival of the species. Sharon's rights as such take a back seat to extinction.

I see will have more to discuss on this next week. I was scrolling through the program guide and next weeks episode concerns Cylon Sympathizers causing trouble in the fleet. Cylon Sympathizers! Can you belive it?

Let's not forget the "baby snapping neck" scene from the mini, either. Cylons are blood thirsty killers and will stop at nothing to defeat humanity. They deserve zero compassion.

She was showing the baby mercy since they were all going to die a horrible death shortly.

She was showing the baby mercy since they were all going to die a horrible death shortly.

Do I show the cockroach mercy when I step on it and squish it, rather than have it succumb to the slow, painful asphyxiation from the pest control man's chemicals?

That baby was murdered. "Oh, they're so fragile" - SNAP!

And .... that baby was also in Caprica City - which took a multi-megaton airburst - had it remained alive, it would not have suffered - it would have been instantly incinerated.

And where is the sympathy for Crashdown? What about his family or girlfriend or whatever? We can most certainly mutiny and kill a fellow human without remorse (and have a whole conspiracy - since there's like 8 folks that know) ... but the whole moral universe comes inploding in when we take female-looking-apparatus and forcibly extract information from it?

And more over, what about sentient robots? A fellow poster mentioned the movie "Bicentennial Man" - I'll see your Andrew Martin and I'll raise you the entire robotic cast from A.I. ... the little boy feels, loves, plays, cries ... but we can most certainly toss it aside like it's garbage. The humans had carnivals where they tortured and destroyed the machines - with glee.

But enough of this dead horse...

What I want to see next is:

1. Helo and Chief on restricted duty, suspended sentence, whatever - but justice must be served. If Cally goes to jail for discharging a firearm in the hallway, then certainly Helo and Chief should go to jail for accidentally dispatching Lt Thorne. (I'm sure they didn't intend to kill Thorne ... but they did anyway - down here, they call that involuntary manslaughter - and it still carries a penalty).

2. They need forensic analysis down to the molecular level of the dead Sharon that's cooling in a Galactica freezer.

3. They need scientific analysis of the Ressurection Ship - identify all known models from those photographs and weed out the fleet.

4. If they are still concerned with Cylons embedded in the fleet, why not just drive the fleet into one of those radioactive clouds and wait it out - they'll exterminate their cylon problem soon enough.

So if the bio-mechanical (or even if fully bio) body is not the determining factor - and it's the mind, or the "soul" - do you hold Caprica Boomer responsible for the attempted murder of Adama since that Boomer is now fully contained within Caprica Boomer?

Those are the types of questions that tend to make one's head explode.

If you hold that the sins of the father are visited on the children for many generations, then Sharon should be held responsible for the attempt on Adama's life. Then again, on Star Trek with the Trill species, the "worm" wasn't necessarily responsible for the actions of its host, though it had the collected memories of each.

Perhaps it was the action of Ship Boomer that caused Caprica Boomer to re-consider her loyalties, and potentially switch sides.

Then again, the Cylons are experts at deception and are more than willing to sacrifice large numbers of themselves to achieve their ultimate goal: the replacement of humans with themselves.

She was showing the baby mercy since they were all going to die a horrible death shortly.

Then again, it may have been an accident. She commented on how big the head was and was wondering how the neck could support it. Then, when she tested its strength, she found out that babie's heads need to be supported when picked up. A human mother would know that....a Cylon wouldn't.

Perhaps she was collecting data on the proposed "baby" the Cylons were planning. Note to Collective: support baby's head!

I'm with swamp. As much as I like Boomer & Chief & Helo - from the proper perspective, the military should prosecute Chief & Helo.


They were prosecuted and convicted. I have a feeling Adama just suspended the sentence.

Think back to around the middle of Season 1 when they find the 'Leoben Model" floating around in one of the ships. They sent Starbuck in to "interrogate" it.

Basically, they have him strapped to a chair and they beat the hell out of it. Starve it. Strike it. Torture it.

... but is it torture? Do I have to go thru the same rationale as yours above? Since if I can also beat the snot out of one to get information - is that morally right too?

That "torture" could easily be equated to knocking down a firewall or installing a virus in a computer that seeks out specific code. You know the info is in the memory, but you also know (or think) that in an attempt to program in some humanity, they may have inadvertently left a backdoor opportunity to extract that info using human vulnerabilities.

It's interesting that when they "spaced" him, there was much less outrage - I should say "philosophical support", I doubt any of you are actually "outraged" - and although he clearly showed himself to be a self-aware being with some degree of free will - he seems to be "less" of a being worthy of our protection. IMO, the fact that personality seems to be a factor in valuing a being's right to exist, undermines the whole argument of what determines when a "machine" crosses that threshold.

It is more a reflection of our own culture and our own psyche that allows her appearance and (apparently) genuine "human" compassion - along with the stigma we associate with rape (often perceived to be more abhorrent than murder) - that makes #6 and Boomer sympathetic characters.

The fact is, nothing they have done is any different than what the more "obedient" terrorist Cylons have done. The only real difference is some are pro-human and some are anti-human in their actions.....and that should have nothing to do with their worthiness to be considered "beings".

But the biggest argument for them being machines (aside from them being constructed by toasters) is in the actions taken by Galactica Boomer. She was just as "humane" and free thinking as the other two - yet her programming was able to override that free will. If free will is programmed, and can be "turned off", then it is not free will.

Someone above mentioned Commander Data. Since he was judged to be sentient without any organic composition whatsoever it is no leap to accept this as a valid Sci-Fi precedent. Thus allowing the Cylon models to have similiar rights and protection as humans.

It is also possible that the Cylons created these 13 models by manipulating human DNA. Certainly the ability to modify our DNA to create a blue-eyed child for a couple wouldn't make that child no longer human. How could you draw a line to determine how much manipulation is "acceptable"?

[Caprica]Boomer may yet betray their trust, especially after the events depicted in the preview, but they lose humanity if they blindly treat her as a mindless automation.

If she turns based on those events, it does nothing to prove or disprove it was all an Information Operations campaign. Without the source code, there is no way to tell if everything is simply IO programming or not, so there is no point to hand-wring over it. I am not going to give her the key to the city, or put her in the nursery, but I would not allow her to be raped or assaulted either.

Leoben Conoy just proves the point. IIRC he was not behaving acceptably for a human, and I would have no different feelings if he were one. Personality is everything, it divides sociopaths from scientists.

Yes, I would spare the sentient, sapient, acceptably behaving cockroach. I may want and need to always guard against action on its part, but I would consider the same for a human who has acted wrong. If it misbehaves, I would kill it. It takes more strength and nerve to have mercy on the deserving, than to succumb to your fears, generalize, and kill all of them.

There are times and places for everything, Admiral Cain's place was at the pointy end of the stick, the [kill them all - it could be a trick] might be appropriate there also. The problem for the Fleet is the shortness of the stick.

What good is saving humanity if the means corrupt it into something not worth saving?

v/r,
C-F

Now here's a question that I haven't seen asked yet. What about Starbuck and Apollo? Does Starbuck remain a captain and CAG of the Pegasus? Or does she transfer back to Galactica in her previous roll or as the Galactica CAG and as suck, the fleet CAG? Does Apollo get returned to a Captain? As a CAG?
Any thoughts?
I think Starbuck should be fleet CAG for one main reason, she has planned 2 major engagements against the Cylons and both have been very successful. For that reason alone, she should be the fleet CAG.

Leoben Conoy just proves the point. IIRC he was not behaving acceptably for a human, and I would have no different feelings if he were one. Personality is everything, it divides sociopaths from scientists.

So it's OK to torture, as long as they have a "bad personality"?

Well concidering that humans do it to each other all the time, torturing a Cylon prisoner is no different.

Rape is just a form of torture as well.

But the biggest argument for them being machines (aside from them being constructed by toasters) is in the actions taken by Galactica Boomer. She was just as "humane" and free thinking as the other two - yet her programming was able to override that free will. If free will is programmed, and can be "turned off", then it is not free will.

Is a person who has been "brainwashed or programmed" (think Manchurian Candidate) then just as guilty because he/she could not turn it off. A person can be deprogrammed, can a Cylon??

I actually had that in my post and deleted it. I decided that there's a difference between brainwashing and overriding what's natural and a being designed with no control from the start.

You could argue for the Cylons if they showed that they could overcome those programmed instructions controlling their actions, unfortunately for the humans of BSG, there'd be no way of verifying that ability. They could just as easily be programmed to appear to be fully independent or counteracting their "instructions" then 60 years down the road, they carry out some mission.

This has been my thinking from the begining, there is no way the humans can ever trust the cylons, the risk is simply too high.

I actually had that in my post and deleted it. I decided that there's a difference between brainwashing and overriding what's natural and a being designed with no control from the start.

You could argue for the Cylons if they showed that they could overcome those programmed instructions controlling their actions, unfortunately for the humans of BSG, there'd be no way of verifying that ability. They could just as easily be programmed to appear to be fully independent or counteracting their "instructions" then 60 years down the road, they carry out some mission.

So it's OK to torture, as long as they have a "bad personality"?No. The ethics and situational dependencies of torture are no different between an [creature] and a human, much less a [being] and a human. That response is taking things somewhat out of context, I was referring to the direct mention of the 'spacing' of Conoy, not his torture. Use "bad personality" if you wish to play off connotations, but Conoy was spaced because he demonstrated a continuing desire to act against the humans.This has been my thinking from the begining, there is no way the humans can ever trust the cylons, the risk is simply too high.Perhaps, and I may agree with you, but I have never advocated trusting them, I advocated treating them humanely until they demonstrate the need to isolate or destroy them as individuals or groups. No more and no less.

v/r,
C-F

I wasn't trying to twist your words, only trying to figure out if you were condoning his torture or not. It wouldn't be inconsistent to be against his torture but not have a problem "spacing" him (where you stand, if I understand you correctly). That would be no different than supporting the death penalty but being against torture.