in that exchange in prison, Baltar whispered to Gaeta that they both knew that Gaeta was also a traitor...that was when Gaeta stabbed him with the pen...

at the time, Gaeta was clearly a hero, so his action to such a silly accusation seemed "extreme" to say the least...

now we know (and confirmed even more with the webisodes) that the accusations were true...Gaeta played both sides and was, in fact, a traitor...

now we know (and confirmed even more with the webisodes) that the accusations were true...Gaeta played both sides and was, in fact, a traitor...

But, in terms of him being bamboozled by the Eight (what was her name?), if he didn't know, does that make him a traitor? What is the definition of that word? Another one of those thorny questions that this show noodles around in... Of course, his treachery is no longer in dispute. Or is it? To what ideal is one's highest allegiance owed?

But, in terms of him being bamboozled by the Eight (what was her name?), if he didn't know, does that make him a traitor? What is the definition of that word? Another one of those thorny questions that this show noodles around in... Of course, his treachery is no longer in dispute. Or is it? To what ideal is one's highest allegiance owed?

was he bamboozled? it seemed that he knew all along but was so torn by guilt that he re-wrote a fantasy in him mind that he was an unwitting victim...once she reminded him of what happened, the fantasy house of cards collapsed and he saw/remembered what he REALLY did and that he knew all along...

like Baltar said, at least he (Baltar) had a gun to his head when he committed "treason"...

was he bamboozled? it seemed that he knew all along but was so torn by guilt that he re-wrote a fantasy in him mind that he was an unwitting victim...once she reminded him of what happened, the fantasy house of cards collapsed and he saw/remembered what he REALLY did and that he knew all along...

like Baltar said, at least he (Baltar) had a gun to his head when he committed "treason"...

I think it's a little more complicated that that...Gaeta did give the Resistance vital information, without which their rescue by Galactica/Pegasus could never have taken place.

I believe he truly thought he was helping people when he wrote that list...but he's still a traitor in act even if not in thought. Giving away info to the enemy, even if you think you are doing the right thing, is still treason.

was he bamboozled? it seemed that he knew all along but was so torn by guilt that he re-wrote a fantasy in him mind that he was an unwitting victim...once she reminded him of what happened, the fantasy house of cards collapsed and he saw/remembered what he REALLY did and that he knew all along...


To me it's clear he had no idea. There was simply no reason to doubt her, especially when his mind was clouded with lust. I know that Grace Park could probably make me feel good about killing kittens if she put her mind to it. :p

Are the webisodes on the Season 4.0 DVD set, or will at least be with 4.5? I haven't seen any of them.

Are the webisodes on the Season 4.0 DVD set, or will at least be with 4.5? I haven't seen any of them.

They'll be on one or the other, for sure. Me, I'm holding out for the inevitable BD complete box set. Better start saving those pennies now; that one's gonna' hurt. ;)

Woohoo, after finally catching up on all the DVDs and now with recent episodes airing on Hulu, I can actually read this thread in real-time and participate in the discussion. It has been a long time coming. :) Of course, now that I'm all caught up, Hulu is going to switch episode availability from one day after airing to eight, putting me a week behind. So this is a short posting window for me. :p (I may finally bite the bullet and seek out less, er, legitimate ways of watching from now to the end of the series. You've got to give me credit for holding out this long, right?)

After not being very satisfied with a number of the most recent episodes dating back to Season 4.0 (which I just finished watching a week ago), I have to say this most recent episode was fantastic. Great to see Adama and Starbuck in full badass mode. And the level of tension maintained through the whole episode was through the roof.

I haven't seen the webisodes, but I'm totally buying Gaeta's motivations for mutiny even without the apparent full backstory. His lost leg was a catalyst that opened his eyes to what he sees are dangerous and unnecessary risks Adama is taking with the fleet. I also like the acting...am I the only one that is seeing fear and uncertainty in the performance? To me, he didn't seem cool, calculated, and confident at all. Especially when giving the order to fire on the Raptor. More like he hadn't fully thought through the gravity of the situation and the inevitable repercussions, but now he was backed in a corner and had no choice but to keep on going. The die was cast.

I was preparing to be a little let down by the final series of episodes and perhaps see BSG lurch to a disappointing finish, but a few more episodes as good as this one and we'll have an end run worthy of the rest of the season.

I was preparing to be a little let down by the final series of episodes and perhaps see BSG lurch to a disappointing finish, ...

:eek: You didn't honestly believe they'd let you down at this point?! :confused:

I don't know how the audience will take it, I suppose there will be critics no matter what happens, but by all accounts the cast and crew were all pretty satisfied and gratified with how it all turned out when they wrapped last summer. I can't see how it would be anything less than spectacular, considering what's come before.

Are the webisodes on the Season 4.0 DVD set, or will at least be with 4.5? I haven't seen any of them.They aren't on the 4.0 set, but the deleted scenes have alot of interesting information...

They'll be on one or the other, for sure. Me, I'm holding out for the inevitable BD complete box set. Better start saving those pennies now; that one's gonna' hurt. ;)

Me too. I wonder how much it will cost. Care to speculate? I hear talk here, and see on ebay where S1 HD-DVD sets go for around $20. I was thinking the complete box set would be in the $80 to $100 range.

Me too. I wonder how much it will cost. Care to speculate? I hear talk here, and see on ebay where S1 HD-DVD sets go for around $20. I was thinking the complete box set would be in the $80 to $100 range.

That's really optimistic. The only reason HD-DVD is going for so cheap is because it's on a dead format.

I predict a complete set on Blu-Ray will cost at least $150, but probably closer to $200.

I predict a complete set on Blu-Ray will cost at least $150, but probably closer to $200.

That's what I was thinking. It may come out even higher at first to skim off the truly hard-core fanbase and then settle down after 6 months or so. Wouldn't put it past 'em. Splitting the season sets up to double the revenue was something they didn't need to do, yet they did.

:eek: You didn't honestly believe they'd let you down at this point?! :confused:

Three things happened in S4.0 that made me seriously concerned. In order, they were:

Lee's ascension to the presidency.
Lee's ascension to the presidency.
Lee's ascension to the presidency.

:p

I know it was just one episode, but -ouch- that was contrived and awkward. More generally, I was concerned there'd be some heavy pseudo-philosophical/religious wankery that would bog down the end game. Don't get me wrong; I love the ethical and philosophical questions the show raises. I just think the exposition about those questions sometimes drags down the show. The only reason I can stand Baltar's endless proselytizing is because I'm amused that it is likely he is faking the whole thing.

"lurch to a disappointing finish" might have been phrased too strongly though. My point was that I'd felt a few cracks were showing over the last 10 or so episodes, and this most recent one gives me new hope that the show's end will not rely on goofy contrivances but instead get the thoughtful, intelligent (and yes, action-packed) ending it deserves.

I suppose there will be critics no matter what happens

Well, this is the internet, after all. :p

Me too. I wonder how much it will cost. Care to speculate? I hear talk here, and see on ebay where S1 HD-DVD sets go for around $20. I was thinking the complete box set would be in the $80 to $100 range.

When it came out on HD DVD, I believe the Season 1 boxset was $89. Now that the format is dead, Frys has it for $15.

I'd expect that a full series boxset would be completely unreasonable. there is no way that they could sell a $200-$300 boxset on Blu-ray, not enough to make it worth their while.

I'd expect them to re-release Season 1 on BD and have it retail for $69.99, and then release subsequent seasons later on.

When it came out on HD DVD, I believe the Season 1 boxset was $89. Now that the format is dead, Frys has it for $15.

I'd expect that a full series boxset would be completely unreasonable. there is no way that they could sell a $200-$300 boxset on Blu-ray, not enough to make it worth their while.

I'd expect them to re-release Season 1 on BD and have it retail for $69.99, and then release subsequent seasons later on.

The Sopranos complete series is selling for close to $300 on DVD on Amazon right now, so I wouldn't be surprised to see BSG in the same price range on Blu-Ray.

Firefly is the only "complete series" that I could find on Blu-Ray, but it was really only one season, so it is a poor comparison.

The Wire Complete Series boxset got down to $90 as a Gold Box special, and it was a 5 season, critically acclaimed show, but also on DVD since it was not presented in HD. (It is framed for 4x3).

Single seasons of Lost on Blu-Ray are selling for $50-60, while other shows (Dexter, Damages, Pushing Daisies) range from $23 to $50.

I predict the complete series will MSRP at $250, initially retail at $175 and work down to $125 a year after the release. Hopefully, it will include Razor and the webisodes properly upscaled.

I saw just "The Matrix: Trilogy" plus the Animatrix, box set in BD at Best Buy yesterday, and THAT was $99!

Then again, single movies are selling for $25-$30 (or at least $20 at discount stores, like Sam's club -- with the exception of "A Clockwork Orange," which they have for $10.87, digitally remastered at 1080P -- only one I've bought so far, lol).

I'm guessing, too, that when and if they release the entire BSG series Box Set on BD it will be AT LEAST $200, and more likely MORE, at least to start with... BUT with BD sales continuing to remain pretty flat, BD prices are going to have to start coming down, so unless you're heavy with cash, I'm thinking patience will pay off.
Jeff

I bought season 1 on HD-DVD for $9.99 at Fry's. Gotta love dead formats. :p

If you were to buy all the box sets of the DVD versions of BSG so far, this is how it breaks down (using amazon):

Season 1: $45.99
Season 2.0: $37.99
Season 2.5: $37.99
Season 3: $38.99
Season 4.0 (includes Razor): $31.99

That's nearly $200, and that's excluding 4.5 and the new movie. Unless they drop those prices, I wouldn't be surprised to see the BD set around $250 -$300.

It'll be interesting to see what they do with The Plan. Knowing that they included Razor in the 4.0 set, would anyone buy The Plan as a stand alone DVD (I wouldn't)? Or just wait for the 4.5 set? Or is it already being included in the 4.5 set?

Looking at those prices though, I'm glad I got most of those on sale. O_o

I saw just "The Matrix: Trilogy" plus the Animatrix, box set in BD at Best Buy yesterday, and THAT was $99!


best buy had it on sale for $64.99 christmastime.

best buy had it on sale for $64.99 christmastime.

I LOVED The Matrix trilogy, but I wouldn't pay more than $30 or so for the box set -- even in BD... I've seen all three movies SO MANY TIMES in HD on HBO, Cinemax, Starz or whatever... I've pretty much gotten my fill -- why on Earth would I then want to pay even $70 for the "box set?"

BSG, in the other hand, my local cable company is STILL not broadcasting Sci-Fi in HD, and I've seen only a FRACTION of the show replayed on UHD (and am pretty sure I HAVE missed some of the peripheral broadcasts), so that might be different... but I still won't pay big bucks for it.
Jeff

You can always go for the regular non-HD discs in what they call "anamorphic widescreen". Sure, the video isn't 1080 lines (it's 480) but it still looks really good to me. If you want to check out the picture quality maybe your local library has a couple of discs you could borrow. The real HD goods would be superior, no doubt.

Another show I loved was HBO's Deadwood. Only 3 seasons and it didn't get a proper conclusion. Nevertheless, the 3 season box set (non HD) DVDs are still about $125 at Amazon and it's been off the air for over 2 years. So figure "six seasons" of BSG could be double that, and it's not even HD. Hell, Babylon 5 DVDs are still $200 for the 5-season set and it's been off the air for over 10 years.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the complete BSG on Bluray go for $400 or more. Assuming, that is, there are people around with enough money to buy them.

Edit: I just did a little research on the B5 DVDs. Apparently Warner Brothers has raked in over $500 million in sales on them. The entire 110 episodes of the series were made for $90 million, yet the creator, Joe Stracznyski, says every time he mentions that to Warner Bros they change the subject. Kinda makes me not want to buy them just to spite WB. I hope the BSG guys have a better arrangement for royalties down the road.

Edit: I just did a little research on the B5 DVDs. Apparently Warner Brothers has raked in over $500 million in sales on them. The entire 110 episodes of the series were made for $90 million, yet the creator, Joe Stracznyski, says every time he mentions that to Warner Bros they change the subject. Kinda makes me not want to buy them just to spite WB. I hope the BSG guys have a better arrangement for royalties down the road.

And people wonder why the creative folks in the business feel they have to go on strike periodically. This is exhibit "A". The studios will totally screw you for life if they can. Also, it's why unions are still very much needed in this country, and sadly unappreciated these days, but that's getting OT.

I think the various BSG webisodes were a lightning rod for the strike. They made them, then declared them "Promotional Materials" and refused to pay the actors. (IIRC)

The Sopranos complete series is selling for close to $300 on DVD on Amazon right now, so I wouldn't be surprised to see BSG in the same price range on Blu-Ray.



You can't compare anything from a different network to HBO. HBO is has always been overpriced on their series. In fact, HBO and Paramount's Star Trek are the kings of overpriced DVD sets.

You can't compare anything from a different network to HBO. HBO is has always been overpriced on their series. In fact, HBO and Paramount's Star Trek are the kings of overpriced DVD sets.

Pretty much, the two season DVDbox set for Rome is going for around $120.

Individually they’re even higher!

I never have understood HBO's thinking on the price of their boxsets. I get that they want to create a "premium" allure for their product and a high price is part of that approach, but it seems counterproductive in terms of generating the most revenue. I know I've chosen not to buy any of their box sets due to those stratospheric prices, and I would think that attitude would be the rule, not the exception. And generating the most revenue with the least expense has become the all-encompassing mission of HBO the last few years, apparently. Who knows what makes them tick. :rolleyes:

So who's ready for some BSG? I have heard good things about the upcoming episode.

Holy crap... Starbucks got thyroid cancer! :(

http://www.dose.ca/tv/story.html?id=8a74aed8-54e2-4140-804f-363ca4d8d0f7
hooting the last few episodes of the show was especially tough on Sackhoff - in addition to the long hours and emotionally grueling scenes, she began feeling physically weaker; soon after filming wrapped, she was diagnosed with thyroid cancer.

"Luckily for me, and the people that get it, it's a 99 per cent success rate if you catch it in time because it's a contained cancer. So you take out the thyroid and you're OK," she says. "I didn't have to do the radiation, which was great."

Still, the diagnosis was enough to give Sackhoff pause.

Sucks, but at least she'll most likely be ok. Maybe this show is too depressing, it's even making the cast sick.

Second point first: It already looks great on widescreen DVD even if it's not true HD.

Baltar is not responsible for the betrayal of humanity. He was duped by Caprica 6. He has always felt guilty about that, but he really was in the dark about her treachery right up until the day the Colonies were attacked.



He gave an authorized civilian complete access to the Colonial Military Mainframe...that's treason whether he knew she was Cylon or not. If a civilian scientist working for the US Navy gave his girlfriend access and she wound up being a Chinese spy, he'd still be guilty of treason, even if he never knew she was a Chinese spy. And once he DID know, he didn't report it.

He gave an authorized civilian complete access to the Colonial Military Mainframe...that's treason whether he knew she was Cylon or not. If a civilian scientist working for the US Navy gave his girlfriend access and she wound up being a Chinese spy, he'd still be guilty of treason, even if he never knew she was a Chinese spy. And once he DID know, he didn't report it.

In the US and many other countries, intent is a key component of treason. If you did not intend for your actions to result in hostilities against your government, you have not committed treason. Maybe espionage or conspiracy, but not treason.

Baltar thought the access he was giving to Six would give her company an competitive advantage over a competing corporation. He did not intend for his actions to lead to an attack on his government. In the eyes of the law (assuming Caprica's laws are similar to US law) he did not commit treason.

In your example, the guy with the Chinese spy girlfriend is not guilty of treason either.

Popular opinion may not be as forgiving as the letter of the law, though.

In the US and many other countries, intent is a key component of treason. If you did not intend for your actions to result in hostilities against your government, you have not committed treason. Maybe espionage or conspiracy, but not treason.

Baltar thought the access he was giving to Six would give her company an competitive advantage over a competing corporation. He did not intend for his actions to lead to an attack on his government. In the eyes of the law (assuming Caprica's laws are similar to US law) he did not commit treason.

In your example, the guy with the Chinese spy girlfriend is not guilty of treason either.

Popular opinion may not be as forgiving as the letter of the law, though.


And his failure to report it AFTER he learned the truth?

And his failure to report it AFTER he learned the truth?

Entirely in character. This is Baltar we're talking about. :p

But didn't the attack commence basically as soon as he found out who she was?

And his failure to report it AFTER he learned the truth?

Maybe a treason charge could stick if he had learned about the attack before hand and had the opportunity to stop it before it happened. But he didn't have the opportunity.

To be guilty of treason, you must make an overt, purposeful act against your own government. While the definition of "overt" is up for judicial debate, I don't think withholding information about an attack after the attack occurs qualifies by any stretch of the imagination.

From findlaw.com (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article03/24.html) (who I found via Google just now - have no idea how valid a reference they are):

"For proof of treasonable intent in the doing of the overt act necessarily involves proof that the accused committed the overt act with the knowledge or understanding of its treasonable character. "

Balter may be a jerk, and may be guilty of lots of other lesser crimes, but not treason (by US law, anyway). A trial would probably play out relatively similar to the one he was already on, which is why I doubt we'll ever see one (because it would be boring and redundant).

He gave an authorized civilian complete access to the Colonial Military Mainframe...that's treason whether he knew she was Cylon or not. If a civilian scientist working for the US Navy gave his girlfriend access and she wound up being a Chinese spy, he'd still be guilty of treason, even if he never knew she was a Chinese spy. And once he DID know, he didn't report it.
You wrote three sentences that seem to contradict each other. First you say she was an authorized civilian (which I agree with). Then you say if a civilian working for the US Navy gave his GF secret info and the GF was a spy he's be guilty of treason regardless of whether he knew she was a spy or not. Then you backtrack a bit and say it depends on whether or not he reported it once he found out.

Baltar could be guilty of disclosing secret information but there's no way it would be treason. The idea of putting the Colonies in danger never entered his mind. He never had the intent to act against the humans or their government. I'm speaking of the idea of betrayal and what that means in a moral sense. Without the intent to help the Cylons genocidal plan there is no way he could be considered to have "betrayed humanity". Poor judgment, yes. Fatally poor judgment, but that's a long way from treason.

To be guilty of treason, you must make an overt, purposeful act against your own government. While the definition of "overt" is up for judicial debate, I don't think withholding information about an attack after the attack occurs qualifies by any stretch of the imagination.
Exactly. I wouldn't go overboard applying the laws of any particular country to the BSG universe, but I think no society is going to define truly infamous crimes like treason as something a person could just stumble into by accident. You'd have to do something tangible with the intent to cause harm in order to be morally culpable for those actions.

He gave an authorized civilian complete access to the Colonial Military Mainframe...that's treason whether he knew she was Cylon or not. If a civilian scientist working for the US Navy gave his girlfriend access and she wound up being a Chinese spy, he'd still be guilty of treason, even if he never knew she was a Chinese spy. And once he DID know, he didn't report it.

ignorance, or lust, isn't an excuse. It's a reason.

ignorance, or lust, isn't an excuse. It's a reason.

Or to paraphrase Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by horniness for a hot alien robot chick in a red dress. :p

So who's ready for some BSG? I have heard good things about the upcoming episode.

I am thrilled to report that after all these years, TWC-Charlotte has finally added SciFi-HD (along with USA and Bravo HD). Not supposed to officially go "live" until next Friday the 13th, but the test channels are up today. Am I excited? Am I psyched? Does a Cylon sh!t in space? First-run BSG in HD, first time ever, less than 6 hours away. <pause> I think I'm going to get all emotional here.

I am thrilled to report that after all these years, TWC-Charlotte has finally added SciFi-HD (along with USA and Bravo HD). Not supposed to officially go "live" until next Friday the 13th, but the test channels are up today. Am I excited? Am I psyched? Does a Cylon sh!t in space? First-run BSG in HD, first time ever, less than 6 hours away. <pause> I think I'm going to get all emotional here.


Tell me more. What are the test channels? I looked at the TW website and it didn't have it in the channel listing. Then again, I'm in Albemarle so I'm probably frakked anyway.

Tell me more. What are the test channels? I looked at the TW website and it didn't have it in the channel listing. Then again, I'm in Albemarle so I'm probably frakked anyway.

USA-HD - 1001
SciFI-HD - 1002
CNBC-HD - 1003
Bravo-HD - 1004

They will move to their permanent locations next week on the 13th.

I am thrilled to report that after all these years, TWC-Charlotte has finally added SciFi-HD (along with USA and Bravo HD). Not supposed to officially go "live" until next Friday the 13th, but the test channels are up today. Am I excited? Am I psyched? Does a Cylon sh!t in space? First-run BSG in HD, first time ever, less than 6 hours away. <pause> I think I'm going to get all emotional here.

Don't get too overly excited. :p

Your TWC system came late to the party, but you're still in time for the last seven episodes. We out on the west coast got SciFi-HD early in January so we've been able to watch since the start of the final 10 run on January 16, so we're going to be able to see all ten of the final eps in HD.

I don't know why your system was late (bandwidth? infrastructure? politicking?). Then again, TWC systems have rather slim picking all the way out bordering the Pacific. San Diego through Los Angeles (and Honolulu) have TWC, but once you get further north it's pretty much Comcast only (for cable) up through Washington state. :rolleyes:

Well, Charter here in Upstate South Carolina still doesn't have it, even though I just looked at my Discover Card account and noticed that they've increased my monthly bill by $17 from what it was LAST month (to a total of $257 a MONTH!) and I still don't get quite everything -- and there's NO PPV in that -- two phone lines, with basic service (only LD on one of those lines, two TVs with HD service, and one broadband 10 Mbps cable service).

I'd switch to the combo of AT&T & one of the Satellite services, but I've done the math and for comparable service, once the original bundle deal wears off, I'd be paying as much, if not more, and AT&T doesn't offer as fast broadband as I have now... I'm still FED UP with Charter, though! Anybody have any ideas what I can do to PUSH THEM to get Sci-Fi in HD?
Jeff

Your TWC system came late to the party, but you're still in time for the last seven episodes. We out on the west coast got SciFi-HD early in January so we've been able to watch since the start of the final 10 run on January 16, so we're going to be able to see all ten of the final eps in HD.

I don't know why your system was late (bandwidth? infrastructure? politicking?). Then again, TWC systems have rather slim picking all the way out bordering the Pacific. San Diego through Los Angeles (and Honolulu) have TWC, but once you get further north it's pretty much Comcast only (for cable) up through Washington state. :rolleyes:

Better late than never, I guess. They told me once that our system here in Charlotte, along with LA of all places, had the biggest bandwidth crunch of any TWC division in the country. I found that kinda' hard to believe since they were able to add any and all bandwidth-sucking analog channels that came down the pipe. Anyway, it was Switched Digital Video that finally rode to the rescue here.

Does a Cylon sh!t in space?

Wait...do they? :p

Does a Cylon sh!t in space? .
Well, they do cum in space, so they must surely go in space.:):o

"in space no one can hear u scream".
-alien.

even though ships/explosions make noise....never understood that.

Gaetta is in way over his head and just realized it. He doesnt have the stomach for what he has started and never did. I wouldnt be surprised if he gets suicidal.

Oh well looks like Adama took care of that little mouse.

Just finished Blood on the Scales..still processing...but...
1) Best Show on TV
2) Best Munity Sequence Arc I have ever seen
3) Edge of my seat stuff, My heart is still racing
4) Hmmm Gaeta...Hid did what he thought was right...but was wrong and he was OK with that...
5) Man I got to get me a special pen...never know when they might come in handy...

It is rare these days for me to be so involved with a series that I wanted to sign up for the squad. What an episode.

OK, what the heck did the Chief see on the wall?

It is rare these days for me to be so involved with a series that I wanted to sign up for the squad. What an episode.

OK, what the heck did the Chief see on the wall?
I interpreted if the have jumped the ship would have failed/burst.

Wow! Fraking Fantastic........

If he can do that with a pen, what could he do with a tin cup! Riddick!

Looks like Helen gets resurrected next week.

I love how Baltar finds time to get laid, by another very hot six (maybe the hottest yet) in the middle of a mutiny, lucky bastard, then he dumps her, before he finishes cuddling. :)

They should have cut off Gaeta's other leg and his arms and gave the limbs that that stupid dog had on TOS.

It is rare these days for me to be so involved with a series that I wanted to sign up for the squad. What an episode.

OK, what the heck did the Chief see on the wall?

A stress failure of some sort...

What a fantastic episode!

You wrote three sentences that seem to contradict each other. First you say she was an authorized civilian (which I agree with). Then you say if a civilian working for the US Navy gave his GF secret info and the GF was a spy he's be guilty of treason regardless of whether he knew she was a spy or not. Then you backtrack a bit and say it depends on whether or not he reported it once he found out.



Sorry meant to say 'UN-authorized civilian'. The last bit is incorrect...I said that EVEN if he didn't know when he did it, finding out later and not reporting it makes him guilty.

Let's not even bring up when 6 showed up on Galactica and accused him of being a traitor...he didn't report her as a cylon then either.

I don't think being a Tool is a very good legal defense..but he can always claim his penis made him do it :-)

They should have cut off Gaeta's other leg and his arms and gave the limbs that that stupid dog had on TOS.

Gaeta reminds me of Benedict Arnold. Most forget (or never learned it in the first place), but he was a genuine war hero, who lost the use of his leg after being wounded in battle.

His 'justification' for treason was the US alliance with France, whom he saw as a mortal enemy. (England and it's colonies had been at war with France for some time prior to the Revolution).

He was able to escape after his British handler was arrested (he received word of the arrest and fled before they could make the connection) The Brits made him a Brigadier General, and he saw action again on US soil.

From Wikipedia:

It is said that Arnold asked an officer he had taken captive about what the Americans would do if they captured him, and the captain is said to have replied "Cut off your right leg, bury it with full military honors, and then hang the rest of you on a gibbet."

I always liked Gaeta, but was glad to see he and Zarek get their just desserts.

A stress failure of some sort...

What a fantastic episode!,

Yea, that's something that will be referred later. Galactica is quite literally falling apart. Or at least the FTLs days are numbered. Speaking of which, not quite a warp core in there was it? Looked like a bigger version of Serinity's engine. Better call Kaylie!

Anyway, great episode. Loved the line by Tigh to Anders. But as good as it was it was almost eclipsed by the preview of Ellen Tigh resurrecting.

At the 17 min mark, my jaw was on the floor! :eek:

The Chief's discovery sets up nicely how they'll get the rest of the fleet to go along with the Cylon work crews and tech update. If Galatica, built to MILSPEC, is starting to fall apart then the rest of the civilian fleet surely is...and it's not like some ships haven't already gone missing during a jump.

Gaeta reminds me of Benedict Arnold. Most forget (or never learned it in the first place), but he was a genuine war hero, who lost the use of his leg after being wounded in battle.

His 'justification' for treason was the US alliance with France, whom he saw as a mortal enemy. (England and it's colonies had been at war with France for some time prior to the Revolution).

He was able to escape after his British handler was arrested (he received word of the arrest and fled before they could make the connection) The Brits made him a Brigadier General, and he saw action again on US soil.

From Wikipedia:

It is said that Arnold asked an officer he had taken captive about what the Americans would do if they captured him, and the captain is said to have replied "Cut off your right leg, bury it with full military honors, and then hang the rest of you on a gibbet."

I always liked Gaeta, but was glad to see he and Zarek get their just desserts.
Excellent observation

Did anyone notice when Starbuck smashed that one rebel's face into the wall that it literally seemed to "make sparks fly" off the wall where his head hit it? That lady DOES NOT play around, lol.

I wasn't watching the previews, as I had just come here to read what you peeps had to say, having not watched the first airing (since it conflicts with "Numbers" on CBS, lol). I guess now they "won't have Felix Gaeta to push around any more," huh? I agree about the stress fractures... looked to me like that part of the hull was just about to crack open. You really DO have to pay attention to every second of this show or you might miss something important to the story... Of course if it IS important, they'll make sure to do a flashback later to let you know it is.

One comment: we've been seeing previews of Roslyn yelling "I'm coming for all of you!" for what, more than A YEAR, NOW??? Good to FINALLY see the actual episode and to what that was in reference. Also, I remember the debate and concern after last week's previews about the deaths of Tyrol and Adama, and some of us (like me) made note of the common preview misdirections and said to NOT take them too seriously... Happy to see we were right. You just can't trust that sort of thing... And they even made it look MORE REAL with Baltar's dream, lol. They're sneaky, these BSG folks.
Jeff

This was an absolutely great episode, but I did puke in my mouth a little when Rosalyn went "Hillary" with her battlecry to end Zarek. I'm sure others were completely delighted by that scene for the same reason. ;)

OK, what the heck did the Chief see on the wall?
I took it to be metal fatigue cracks badly in need of repair. Like bvader, I think the idea is that an FTL jump would have been disastrous.

This was an outstanding episode IMO. I criticized Juliani last week for his acting. I think this week he more than made up for it. There were about half a dozen Emmy deserving performances in this episode.

I'm relatively new here and I understand Laura Roslin isn't exactly everyone's favorite character. I love the Roslin character and tonight I was reminded why. The woman showed tonight she's got more balls than half the men in the fleet. "I'm coming for you all." You go, Madame President!

Simply outstanding. Not perfect but any nitpicking I might have pales in comparison and isn't even worth mentioning.

One comment: we've been seeing previews of Roslyn yelling "I'm coming for all of you!" for what, more than A YEAR, NOW???

Not me. That was the first time I ever heard her say those words. I avoid the previews religiously. No muss no fuss, and no gnashing of teeth wondering what it all means, or even if it means anything at all. Those Roslin lines there in that situation were some of the best moments of the season (maybe the entire series) so far. I am frakking overjoyed that I never fanwanked upon their meaning before this night.

Good to FINALLY see the actual episode and to what that was in reference. Also, I remember the debate and concern after last week's previews about the deaths of Tyrol and Adama, and some of us (like me) made note of the common preview misdirections and said to NOT take them too seriously... Happy to see we were right.
Was it? At every turn I have never been disappointed by NOT watching the previews.

You just can't trust that sort of thing... And they even made it look MORE REAL with Baltar's dream, lol. They're sneaky, these BSG folks.
Anyone who watches the previews is a sucker IMO. Nothing personal, Jeff :) but I learned that in Season 1 of the Sopranos.

This was an absolutely great episode, but I did puke in my mouth a little when Rosalyn went "Hillary" with her battlecry to end Zarek. I'm sure others were completely delighted by that scene for the same reason. ;)
I thought that was one of the best moments of the entire season so far and I take offense to your suggested as to why. Roslin is not a ... let me put it this way: Roslin would get my vote. Very few real-life politicians ever do, including the one you mentioned. You wanna make that connection? Fine. Sounds like a personal problem to me.

Not sure what you are objecting so strongly about. I agree it was a great highpoint to the episode. I just thought it was needlessly cheapened by associating it to a Hillary moment with the "Not now, not ever..." excerpt. Roslin has built her own credibility to stand on to deliver a battlecry. Putting a "Hillary flavor" on it only risks diminishing what should be a Roslin moment (unless you really buy into the Hillary stature...then I'm sure it would be a gloriously affirming moment for some).

Honestly can we keep the polital-esque talk out of the thread it leads to nothing but trouble and bans....

As far as Roselins part oges I thought it was a powerful moment obviously spurnned by the preceived loss of her "love". I didnt feel anything negative towards it at all.

This episode I am sure are what people were lookng for almost end to end suspense. ANother episode that kept me glued to the TV not wanting it to end.

Not me. That was the first time I ever heard her say those words. I avoid the previews religiously.

I believe he was referring to the advertisements for the last part of the 4th season that have aired continuously for the last 9 months on the Scifi channel. If you ever watched the channel live, you couldn't miss that scene because it played in every ad.

Thanks to all who answered my question concerning the stress fracture in Galactia. Considering what that ship has endured over the years, it is a wonder it is still space worthy.

It has been interesting to watch how the friendship between Adama and Tigh has progressed. Despite what Tigh is, Adama has realized that what is more important is who he is: a longtime trusted friend. It makes it hard to buy into the "all Cylons are bad" philosophy when you've had a personal relationship with one of them.

Which makes me wonder: are there still Cylons in the colonial fleet? Way back when it was first revealed that "they look like us"---were pictures of all the known models generally distributed to all 40 thousand or so fleet members? Are there other fathers and friends out there who are really Cylons who would have a bond similar to Tigh and Adama's? I sure wish I had archived these episodes.

Great episode yet again. Honestly, I don't see the political angle that some of you mentioned, I think you guys are jumping at shadows.
What the hell is it about Baltar?? You could throw that guy off the roof of some random building and he will invariably break his fall by landing on a mattress with some new, super hot variation of a 'six' :D

The Chief's discovery sets up nicely how they'll get the rest of the fleet to go along with the Cylon work crews and tech update. If Galatica, built to MILSPEC, is starting to fall apart then the rest of the civilian fleet surely is...and it's not like some ships haven't already gone missing during a jump.


Yeah, what's that about?

Could it be that he's still breathing yet the stress fractures (whatever) should have decompressed that part of the ship?

Anybody noticed that Adama didn't bother with a trial in executing those guys. lol

Personally, I'd like to have seen them flushed out the airlock.

Best part of this episode for me was when the crew who were still loyal to Adama began to rally around him as he led the charge to depose Gaeta. I will miss Felix just as I still mourn for Dualla. Did not expect Zarek to go out that way but the man knew the power of disinformation.

I think the stress fracture in the hull signifies the end of the ride and that Galacta (and this show) has given all that it can and "Either we need to find a home fast or this all could end up in a big fireball"

There are little part of me that thinks this could all end in a cataclysmic battle where only 13 ships/tribes survive and scatter.

Anybody noticed that Adama didn't bother with a trial in executing those guys. lol

Personally, I'd like to have seen them flushed out the airlock.

Mutineers don't deserve a trial.

Gene Hackman should have fired Denzel out of the torpedo tube.

Great, great episode.

High points:

1. Gaeta and Zarek - Gaeta realized he is in way over his head. By teaming up with Zarek, he had let the Genie out of the bottle, and there was no way to contain it. I thought Gaeta was played perfectly - once he got past the Rubicon, he realized there was no way it was going to end well. Zarek was just a monster.

2. Roslyn's battle cry was absolutely fantastic. "I'm coming for all of you!" indeed! I have heard that a thousand times in the previews and thought it sound kind of goofy. When put in the context of what was happening, it fit perfectly. "I will use every cannon, every missile, every gun, to get you!" (Or whatever she said). She had nothing to lose.

3. Funny how spineless the cylons are now without resurrection technology.

4. Baltar's conversion? Seemed genuine now.

5. I loved the scene where Gaeta calls down to carry out the execution, the guy (can't remember his name) hangs up the phone and they show Tigh with a gun pointed at his head. This made me laugh - but it was done so well. They didn't even have to show how they took over the situation and made the marines stand down.

6. Adama marching back to the bridge with his army in tow - great stuff.

I feel bad for Gaeta. The guy was truly doing what he felt was the right thing. It's sorta like what Nacho says about not wanting to go against Adama, but he can't take orders from a Cylon since he hates them.

The funniest thing about Gaeta's situation is that right before he's shot, his amputation point ceases to be itchy. That sucks! I think it's symbolism ... like his itch represented the need for him to go against Adama. That was the itch and when the reckoning came, the "itch" was gone.

Anyways, it was a great episode.

ft

A couple of other items that I really liked, I'm a sucker for this stuff...that all the right folks...the heros of the show all did their piece...StarBuck/Lee & Chief/Tigh ... Athena they were all there even Hotdog didn't shoot the President's ship.

Curious did anyone else get the sense that Chief Tyrol had extra/super human strength when he pulled the part out of the FTL drive?

I haven't seen the webisode, need to, but the Baltar/Geata pre-execution discussion had a lot of weight and history, like they went back before the show time line.


Anyone who watches the previews is a sucker IMO. Nothing personal, Jeff :) but I learned that in Season 1 of the Sopranos.

I watch the previews because I AM a sucker, I know they are misleading it give me some food for thought to chew on for the week about what is Real and what is Mis Information...

Fantastic episode, really a two parter dealing with the mutiny along with last week's, with the "current time" illustrating how quickly events were happening. If '24' could bottle a fraction of that taut suspense, they'd again have the show they had their first couple of years. This is how you do it right.

Loved Starbuck and Lee doing their Bonnie 'n Clyde thing as they moved through the ship. Lee showed that just because he wears a suit instead of a uniform these days doesn't mean he still doesn't know how to kick some. Loved the fake grenade bit where he took out those heavily armed marines single-handedly (even shooting one in the back; that never happens on TV) and Starbuck's reaction. :p And Kara re-connecting with her dormant softer side in refusing to leave Sam. Damn. That woman completely sells it, every time, no matter what the scene calls for. Even more astonishing is how she kept up that intensity while suffering what we now know was thyroid cancer! Katee's a trooper, man.

The return of Romo Lampkin! Woot! Frak, I'd missed that guy. Loved how he asked, as he's being manhandled, shackled, through the corridors "Who's going to feed my dog?" :D Guess the ultimately ambivalent barrister finally took a side, eh? Last thing he would want anyone to know is that he really does have a moral code, no matter how much he struggles to rise above it. Now that the rebellion has been quashed, he and Starbuck will get Anders to Doc Cottle; guess we'll see how that turns out next week.

Loved how Gaeta and Zarak finally met their ends. Gaeta almost seemed relieved it was over. He had an opportunity to create a real mess had he opened up on the Cylon baseship, but when the FTL went offline at the last second, it was almost like a "message from the gods" that his mission was ultimately supposed to fail (when he mumbled Adama's warning). His last line about how his missing leg finally stopped hurting, seconds before the firing squad finally brought him blessed relief, was one of the most powerful moments the show has seen. No fear at all in his eyes. Same with Zarak. Ultimately, he wasn't a coward (never was), just a revolutionary to the end. When he slaughtered the Quorum, that was one of the ultimate "WTF did I just see?!" jaw-dropping moments in the show's history. Just goes to show you - this revolution stuff is not for the faint of heart. Kudos to Richard Hatch who sublimated his desire to reprise the original series and signed on to create one of the more memorable characters in the new, improved version. Bravo. Who knew the guy was that good?

The music. Bear McCreary is simply one of the best in the business. He can get your heart pumping with pulse-pounding percussion during action scenes, yet craft the most hauntingly beautiful refrain when Adama and Roslyn reunited at the end. The best score is one you don't even really notice, but which enhances the scene with perfect modulation. McCreary nails it every week.

Finally, just to reprise something I said last week - frakkin' Eddie Olmos. I've reached a decision. If he doesn't get an Emmy nom this year I'm burning down the Academy headquarters. Who's with me? Not only did he not bother with a military tribunal or something in dealing with the ringleaders, he didn't even offer them a blindfold or last cigarette. :p

My only disappointment? We didn't get to see a Viper to Viper dogfight between Hotdog and Narcho (especially since this was my first first-run in HD episode ever - thank you TWC). They must be marshaling their vfx budget for a blow-out battle at some point. And that, my friends, will be awesome.

he didn't even offer them a blindfold or last cigarette.

maybe he counted the cig he had with baltar. :D

Just want to agree with everyone -- really enjoyed this episode. I didn't think it was quite as excellent as last week. But basically I give last week an "Excellent" and this week a "Great+". :D

The slaughter of the Quorum was made of awesome. I was laughing through the whole commercial break - nice set of cajones this show has!

The only scene I didn't like was Baltar in bed with yet another Six. Hello? I don't know, that just seemed really tacked on to me. Considering all they must have cut from this episode for time, I didn't think that was the best way to handle Baltar's guilt epiphany.

Otherwise, wow! I was glad Gaeta got what he deserved, but they did manage to make me feel something for him again at the end. His final words: "It stopped!" How can one phrase make make me giggle, sadden me, and make me "woot!" all at the same time?

Roslin's warcry was great. And how far have we come? Roslin inspiring the Cylons to fight? Roslin and Leoben working together? Well, we know he's a pretty forgiving guy when he wants to be - I still wonder if he told any of his Cylon buddies about Starbuck's corpse.

Speaking of Madame Airlock - yeah, I would've much rather seen Zarek and Gaeta airlocked. Too bad Roslin wasn't calling the shots there. It's a shame in a way to see Richard Hatch go, with his history with BSG. But he got a heck of an ending.

Just want to agree with everyone -- really enjoyed this episode. I didn't think it was quite as excellent as last week. But basically I give last week an "Excellent" and this week a "Great+". :D

The slaughter of the Quorum was made of awesome. I was laughing through the whole commercial break - nice set of cajones this show has!

The only scene I didn't like was Baltar in bed with yet another Six. Hello? I don't know, that just seemed really tacked on to me. Considering all they must have cut from this episode for time, I didn't think that was the best way to handle Baltar's guilt epiphany.

Otherwise, wow! I was glad Gaeta got what he deserved, but they did manage to make me feel something for him again at the end. His final words: "It stopped!" How can one phrase make make me giggle, sadden me, and make me "woot!" all at the same time?

Roslin's warcry was great. And how far have we come? Roslin inspiring the Cylons to fight? Roslin and Leoben working together? Well, we know he's a pretty forgiving guy when he wants to be - I still wonder if he told any of his Cylon buddies about Starbuck's corpse.

Speaking of Madame Airlock - yeah, I would've much rather seen Zarek and Gaeta airlocked. Too bad Roslin wasn't calling the shots there. It's a shame in a way to see Richard Hatch go, with his history with BSG. But he got a heck of an ending.

I'm not really sure the execution happened yet.

Mutineers don't deserve a trial.

Gene Hackman should have fired Denzel out of the torpedo tube.


Funny that you mentioned Crimson Tide. I was watching that on TNT to kill time until the 11:00 premiere. Actually 11:20 so I can zip the commercial breaks.

I think the stress fracture in the hull signifies the end of the ride and that Galacta (and this show) has given all that it can and "Either we need to find a home fast or this all could end up in a big fireball"

There are little part of me that thinks this could all end in a cataclysmic battle where only 13 ships/tribes survive and scatter.


Anyone else speculating that these remaining ships will be the next 13 tribes with one of them being all Cylon?? Now wouldn't that be kewl? :D

I feel bad for Gaeta. The guy was truly doing what he felt was the right thing.

I don't. Regardless of what he felt, he was not doing the right thing and a lot of innocent people died - along with many of his shipmates.

Firing squad was way too humane - they should have programmed the toasters to repeatedly violate him.

I'm not really sure the execution happened yet.

Oh yes. Yes it did. Did you see the expression on Adama's face? If every one of the firing squad's rifles had jammed, he would have walked up to those two guys and strangled them with his bare hands.

Anyone else speculating that these remaining ships will be the next 13 tribes with one of them being all Cylon?? Now wouldn't that be kewl?

I think you're getting warm, Jim. ;)

I think the stress fracture in the hull signifies the end of the ride and that Galacta (and this show) has given all that it can and "Either we need to find a home fast or this all could end up in a big fireball"

There are little part of me that thinks this could all end in a cataclysmic battle where only 13 ships/tribes survive and scatter.

Dude you read my mind.. I think they will show Galactica has only a few jumps left, If any at all.

Heres how I think it will play out. (at least the end of the battle star)

The Galactica and The Cylon base ship With military crews, make a last stand against the last of the Cavils, which I think have un-boxed Helen, in the emergency resurrection tub, or in the hybrid goo bath, it could have been Helen all along in there, she just had to grow hair. With Cavil thinking that giving Helen a chance at redemption, by helping him destroy the fleet, along with the six, that stole her murdering wife abusing hubby.

A flaming blood bath brews, led by Adama and Starbuck, Helen turns on the other (Cavil) Cylons, who quickly realize they should have left her in the box.... TOO Late.

She blows them all to hell, with the power of an exploding super nova, and colorful concentric rings is all thats left....

End of the line.. The rest of the fleet bows out with loads of Cylons partners, to frak like rabbits and be merry... End of line

Yeppers...BTW its "End Of Line"...EOL .. computer term :)

Still need to find out what Starbuck's "Special Purpose" is...she could be the one that carries the nuke or something.

I don't. Regardless of what he felt, he was not doing the right thing and a lot of innocent people died - along with many of his shipmates.

Firing squad was way too humane - they should have programmed the toasters to repeatedly violate him.

Disturbing, most disturbing.... They already said no cigarette or blind fold.. and you want to give him a going away pressent..:confused::eek::D

which I think have un-boxed Helen, in the emergency resurrection tub, or in the hybrid goo bath,

I'll take, Things you never say when trying to convince someone that BSG is not typical SciFi and is the best drama on TV, for $400, Alex.

Anybody noticed that Adama didn't bother with a trial in executing those guys. lol

Personally, I'd like to have seen them flushed out the airlock.

Mutiny == summary execution.

i'll take, things you never say when trying to convince someone that bsg is not typical scifi and is the best drama on tv, for $400, alex.

lol..

Thank God(s) that they finally killed off that bloated over-acting poser from the old show. He's been the only thing wrong with this thing from the start... a constant bad reminder of the campy crud that was the original series. Good riddance.

I don't. Regardless of what he felt, he was not doing the right thing and a lot of innocent people died - along with many of his shipmates.

Firing squad was way too humane - they should have programmed the toasters to repeatedly violate him.

Remind me to never cross you as a Mod. :D

Don't worry, I have a hard enough time programming my own toaster to properly toast a bagel.

Don't worry, I have a hard enough time programming my own toaster to properly toast a bagel.

<<breathing a sigh of relief>>

Does anyone have a screen capture of that hull fracture? I was poking around on some fan sites and someone mentioned that Adama saw something similar in his bathroom a while back.

As far as the "hull fracture" goes, I'm thinking it is simply a stress fracture on a bulkhead, not the hull itself. Don't get me wrong, an internal fracture in the engine room is pretty damn bad in its own right. It's just not as bad as a hull fracture.

First off, if it was the hull that was fractured, you would have an issue of depressurization. Secondly, while I don't know the exact layout of the Galactica, I would like to think that the engine room has more than a couple layers of protection between itself and the hull of the ship. In fact, it should be as far into the interior as they can make it, so as to offer the most protection during a battle. Otherwise, a single kamikaze raider would be able to disable an entire battlestar.

<<breathing a sigh of relief>>

Does anyone have a screen capture of that hull fracture? I was poking around on some fan sites and someone mentioned that Adama saw something similar in his bathroom a while back.

Hasn't happened yet. It's one of the You Will Know the Truth "clues" from the Sci Fi website. That's when I quit looking at the clues -- way too spoilery for my taste.

<<breathing a sigh of relief>>

Does anyone have a screen capture of that hull fracture? I was poking around on some fan sites and someone mentioned that Adama saw something similar in his bathroom a while back.
I posted these and more elsewhere...(I didn't have the interlace set right or they would be slightly cleaner)

First off, if it was the hull that was fractured, you would have an issue of depressurization. Secondly, while I don't know the exact layout of the Galactica, I would like to think that the engine room has more than a couple layers of protection between itself and the hull of the ship. In fact, it should be as far into the interior as they can make it, so as to offer the most protection during a battle. Otherwise, a single kamikaze raider would be able to disable an entire battlestar.

I would think a warship like the Galactica would have some system of redundant outer hull, perhaps two or even three or more layers. Even oil tankers are double-hulled these days. After all, we've seen the damage from a direct strike by a nuke stay contained in a relatively small area. So, a crack in an inner bulkhead wouldn't necessarily translate to a crack all the way through. Still a mite scary, though. The Chief seemed more than a little exhausted by his sabotage of the FTL drive. Wonder if he got hit with any radiation or something?

...OT...
Bullcrap, even sub commanders can't fire missiles after the arm order is released until the actual fire code is confirmed. Yes PALS were not in sub nukes until latter, but the ability to launch without direct command in a state of war per SIOP is *#(@OR
...lost carrier...
;)
http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/reading_room/320.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Integrated_Operational_Plan

Geesh, you guys get SOOOOO nitpicky and technical :p

As for "only suckers" watching previews, I would contend that "only suckers BELIEVE EVERYTHING THEY SEE AND HEAR IN A PREVIEW." Watching them is an entirely different matter, and YES, as someone defending me pointed out, that line Roslyn uttered HAS been in just about EVERY SINGLE COMMERCIAL run about BSG on the Sci-Fi channel for the past 9 months, or so, so if you just WATCH THE CHANNEL, you just about HAD to see that line, unless you just NEVER caught any of their commercials.

As for the mutiny, and the execution, whether mutineers get a trial or not (and I DO believe summary execution is pretty standard), the show isn't required to SHOW US the trial just because they had one. I mean, we have to assume all these people, being human, use the bathroom every day, yet they never show it. Just because they don't show something the might normally precede something else doesn't mean it didn't necessarily take place. I believe it's left to the audience to INFER that the Rule of Law is back in place now that Roslyn and Adama are back in charge, and that however Zarek and Gaeta ended up in front of the firing squad, it was legitimate.

Gaeta may have had "best interests" at heart, but he was mighty naive about the realities of the fleet -- and especially Zarek. Fletcher Christian had very good, just and legitimate reasons for his mutiny against Capt. Bligh, yet was still eventually tried, found guilty and hanged for that mutiny. Mutiny is NOT taken lightly.

As for the Rebel Cylons, I think it will be interesting to see how they interact with Roslyn after seeing her as a Warrior Goddess -- and also after having acted as her protector from a mutiny. It's likely a DONE DEAL now that the Cylon upgrades will happen. These final 6 episodes should be a rather wild ride.
Jeff

...OT...
Bullcrap, even sub commanders can't fire missiles after the arm order is released until the actual fire code is confirmed. Yes PALS were not in sub nukes until latter, but the ability to launch without direct command in a state of war per SIOP is *#(@OR
...lost carrier...
;)
http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/reading_room/320.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Integrated_Operational_Plan

They received a valid launch order. Another message then attempted to come through but was never received.

Denzel should have gone for a swim.

I believe he was referring to the advertisements for the last part of the 4th season that have aired continuously for the last 9 months on the Scifi channel. If you ever watched the channel live, you couldn't miss that scene because it played in every ad.
OK, gotcha. Makes sense. I don't watch SciFi except for an hour a week. I threw in the towel after "Alien Express - Where Every Car Is A Meal Car".

It would have been funny if they panned to Hoshy's face, when adama told Gaeta to "shove it up your ass, I don't need a frakin lawyer"

A couple of other items that I really liked, I'm a sucker for this stuff...that all the right folks...the heros of the show all did their piece...StarBuck/Lee & Chief/Tigh ... Athena they were all there even Hotdog didn't shoot the President's ship.
I also enjoyed the scene where Roslin transmits one of her messages and when she's done the camera pans over to Leoben and a piece of cylon electronics. "I thought that might help." :D

As for "only suckers" watching previews, I would contend that "only suckers BELIEVE EVERYTHING THEY SEE AND HEAR IN A PREVIEW." Watching them is an entirely different matter.
Is that like smoking it without inhaling it? To each his own, my friend, but those of us who are not addicted to TV see it differently. Heh, you probably watch the commercials too. :D

wow, just wow. I don't care what anyone says, if they think BSG has gone downhill, they're morons that need nice little simple minded individual packaged episodes.

This was probably the best 4 episodes of the show when taken together.

Not sure what you are objecting so strongly about. I agree it was a great highpoint to the episode. I just thought it was needlessly cheapened by associating it to a Hillary moment with the "Not now, not ever..." excerpt. Roslin has built her own credibility to stand on to deliver a battlecry. Putting a "Hillary flavor" on it only risks diminishing what should be a Roslin moment (unless you really buy into the Hillary stature...then I'm sure it would be a gloriously affirming moment for some).

I think you're letting your political persuasion get in the way of seeing it for what it is. Like it was said, we need to keep that out of the thread.

She was fraking pissed that that worm Zarack and Felix would do this, and to what happened to Bill. You could almost see the two simultaneously **** their pants. It's also when Felix realized it was over.

I posted these and more elsewhere...(I didn't have the interlace set right or they would be slightly cleaner)

Thanks for doing that.

At first they looked almost like claw marks. There aren't any Cylon velociraptors are there?

Nah, metal fatigue maybe or breach more likely.

Not sure what you are objecting so strongly about. I agree it was a great highpoint to the episode. I just thought it was needlessly cheapened by associating it to a Hillary moment with the "Not now, not ever..." excerpt. Roslin has built her own credibility to stand on to deliver a battlecry. Putting a "Hillary flavor" on it only risks diminishing what should be a Roslin moment (unless you really buy into the Hillary stature...then I'm sure it would be a gloriously affirming moment for some).

Personally I thought the Roslin proclamation was as powerful a moment as I've seen in a while.

As far as the "Not now, Not ever" -- generally I don't see the connection other than being 2 women. Maybe I misremember, but was that not said in June at the convention. I avoid previews/commercials for BSG like the plague and I wish this forum would spoilerize anything not seen in the main show (doesn't seem to be official policy unlike some other boards however). BUT if Roslin's line has been in commercials/previews since the end of Season 4.0 then that was filmed well before the Sumemr Conventions so that should negate any overt nod to HC.

I think you're letting your political persuasion get in the way of seeing it for what it is. Like it was said, we need to keep that out of the thread.

She was fraking pissed that that worm Zarack and Felix would do this, and to what happened to Bill. You could almost see the two simultaneously **** their pants. It's also when Felix realized it was over.

I don't think you guys are getting the part I was really averse over. It's not about the rallying speech. As I explicitly cited earlier, I agree that the speech was very powerful. What I was commenting on is specifically about the "Not now, not ever" part, which I believe is lifted right out of one of Hillary's "historic" soapbox performances. It's delivered with the same cadence and everything- as if almost doing a Hillary impression.

Had Rosalin delivered the same speech, except w/o the Hillary reference in that short little bit, it would have been a 10/10 experience for me. Perhaps, the particular wording can be chalked up entirely to coincidence, but I think that is a bit naive (given that BSG is no stranger to incorporating current day political references into subtle undertones in the show). Seems like she has the weight of performance to pull it off just fine. That is why I thought the approach the writers took was needlessly campy.

I don't think you guys are getting the part I was really averse over. It's not about the rallying speech. As I explicitly cited earlier, I agree that the speech was very powerful. What I was commenting on is specifically about the "Not now, not ever" part, which I believe is lifted right out of one of Hillary's "historic" soapbox performances. It's delivered with the same cadence and everything- as if almost doing a Hillary impression.

Had Rosalin delivered the same speech, except w/o the Hillary reference in that short little bit, it would have been a 10/10 experience for me. Perhaps, the particular wording can be chalked up entirely to coincidence, but I think that is a bit naive (given that BSG is no stranger to incorporating current day political references into subtle undertones in the show). Seems like she has the weight of performance to pull it off just fine. That is why I thought the approach the writers took was needlessly campy.

I think you are the only one seeing a Hillary Clinton reference here, Hank. Nobody else seems to have gotten that at all. It was just a powerful moment that fits perfectly with the character of Roslyn. It was designed to raise goosebumps. If you thought it was "campy", then that's a valid stylistic criticism; comparing it to something HC may have said during a political campaign isn't. The two "speeches" weren't remotely similar in intensity, context or, obviously, intent. Let's move on.

Once again, replies such as the above fail to take into account the specific detail I am referring to, rather suggesting that I thought the entire speech was campy (which is not the case).

Once again, replies such as the above fail to take into account the specific detail I am referring to, rather suggesting that I thought the entire speech was campy (which is not the case).

No, no. The "specific detail" was specifically included. Nobody sees this but you. Nobody's looking for it but you, either. ;) Like I said, time to move on.

In that case, your earlier reply should have been clipped at the midway point, because the rest is utterly irrelevant to any point I was making.

To suggest that I was "looking for it" is offensively dismissive and unnecessary. If you don't see it, fine, then just say you disagree. Just don't discount the possibility that it simply flies over your head. If it does fly over, then there is no reason to object to my comments (you cannot very well argue the context/intensity/intent of something, if you aren't even sure if she said it or not, in the first place). If you do vehemently object, then that somewhat concedes that you do suspect something is there, and it is worth denying that there is a connection (rather than arguing the merits of should the connection exist or not).

As for dropping it, I did so about 12 hrs ago. For people to be bringing it up again 12 hrs later just to make the point that they don't agree, really suggests that they should consider following their own advice to not dwell on political-oriented topics, in the first place.

were pictures of all the known models generally distributed to all 40 thousand or so fleet members? Are there other fathers and friends out there who are really Cylons who would have a bond similar to Tigh and Adama's? I sure wish I had archived these episodes.

Yes. In the middle of Season 1, the President holds a press conference and in her hand she shows pictures of a Six and a Leoben.

Now, that said, a Six was able to hide in the fleet to the end of Season 2, when the Six called Natalie nukes one of the ships in orbit at the beginning of the New Caprica settlement.

Anybody noticed that Adama didn't bother with a trial in executing those guys.

At long last, Bill does what Admiral Cain would have done. After all, Bill is a commanding fleet officer on extended deployment at a time of war. He has broad authority.

As for Zarek... I still don't get why Gaeta would even involve him. For that matter, Zarek would have been long dead. No government can tolerate such an endless irritant. Tom Zarek would be buried under the Pyramid court on New Caprica.

On the Hillary Clinton reference...

BSG is littered with references to modern American democracy. Most of them are, in fact, visual references, such as the swearing-in of Roslin, which specifically emulated the swearing-in of LBJ. The entire story, it can be argued, is a cultural reaction to September 11th. The occupation of New Caprica is a direct reference to Iraq.

Heck, there's even the reference to Benedict Arnold, as someone offered early in this thread.

BSG has every right to directly reference the strongest female politician in American history.

Zarek would be the most obvious choice to consult for a "revolution", eh? However, I absolutely agree that Gaeta had no idea the sheer pandora box he was opening by relying on Zarek. He dared to play with fire w/o understanding the fire, and he burned himself real good.

On the Hillary Clinton reference...

BSG is littered with references to modern American democracy. Most of them are, in fact, visual references, such as the swearing-in of Roslin, which specifically emulated the swearing-in of LBJ. The entire story, it can be argued, is a cultural reaction to September 11th. The occupation of New Caprica is a direct reference to Iraq.

Heck, there's even the reference to Benedict Arnold, as someone offered early in this thread.

BSG has every right to directly reference the strongest female politician in American history.

Now there is a legitimate response to my comments. At the least, it acknowledges the white elephant in the middle of the room. I may not agree with where your point ended up ;) , but it is a legitimate reply, nonetheless. The stuff in the 1st paragraph is good stuff, though, and I believe we are on the same page with that. The Benedict Arnold part is also a good point, and I am glad it was brought up earlier. That reference would never have occurred to me (as I am hopelessly apathetic on the topic of history), but I definitely learned something.

Yes. In the middle of Season 1, the President holds a press conference and in her hand she shows pictures of a Six and a Leoben....


Great, thanks. Yikes. Season 1. When was that, like 10 years ago?

So then, as far as the fleet is concerned, they only know the Cylons as the destroyers of their homeworlds and never had the "they are really great 'bots once you get to know them" moments that Adama and Tigh have had.

No wonder the captains of the other ships don't want them aboard, tinkering with their FTL drives. If the "friendly" Cylons want full inclusion into Colonial society, that truly is a hard sell. Maybe an impossible one. This really could end badly.

....either that or the final scene of Galactica will be a curtain going down at the Opera House...the lights coming up....and someone commenting, "I don't know....I don't think I like this version of the Opera. I thought the staging that had the daggits and Boxey was better."

It would have been funny if they panned to Hoshy's face, when adama told Gaeta to "shove it up your ass, I don't need a frakin lawyer"

In the Podcast for last week, RDM said that they filmed these scenes before the the Faces webisodes when they established the Hoshi-Gaeta love affair thing. He actually remarked that if he knew they were going to go there then he would have like to done just what you suggested.

BSG has every right to directly reference the strongest female politician in American history.

I agree, but I just don't think they were in this specific case. You'd really have to be looking for that to interpret it that way, and there's plenty of evidence that it was simply in character for Roslyn who felt pure animal rage at that moment. HC never came close to that level of intensity in the referenced remark, nor in any public remarks I'm sure. Mr. Hanky, of course, begs to differ. And he's been beggin' pretty hard. ;)

I may not agree with where your point ended up ;)

First, I'd offer that for good or ill, Hillary Clinton has her place in American history. You may not be a fan of Hillary, but she counts. I mean, if there's a place for Jesse Jackson, whose legacy is a political dead-end, in American history, there's gotta be room for Hillary Clinton, whose legacy is still alive and kicking.

Second, I assume some of the dissatisfaction is for the over reference of Hillary on the left-right axis of blathering stoopid in American discourse.

To be honest, I think BSG has been kind to both political ends.

What's funny in the show's early part of its run Roslin was a stand-in for George W. Bush, or at least the neo-conservative argument for the value of expediency over moralization.

The fact is, expediency wins more often (that, or I completely fail to understand why we gave weapons to Stalin's Russia during WWII).

So, on the left-right axis, I've always felt that BSG did a surprisingly good job of representing both the left and the right, showing warts and all.

If the "friendly" Cylons want full inclusion into Colonial society, that truly is a hard sell. Maybe an impossible one. This really could end badly.

Agreed, this has really set the stage for calamity. It poses the question of (racial?) integration and the premise of how much is too much, too soon. Unfortunately, humans and cylons don't have the luxury of time, and their survival depends on it happening "soon". We are truly left with this pickle of a premise.



....either that or the final scene of Galactica will be a curtain going down at the Opera House...the lights coming up....and someone commenting, "I don't know....I don't think I like this version of the Opera. I thought the staging that had the daggits and Boxey was better."

I had a similar thought that at the end of the series, we pull back to the environment of the original series as they (Dirk Bennedict, et al) are actually watching this soap opera on the communal Galactica tv. ;) Original Adama stands up from his chair in humorous protest, "What bull$hit!"

So, on the left-right axis, I've always felt that BSG did a surprisingly good job of representing both the left and the right, showing warts and all.

Agreed, and I as well have had a certain appreciation of the show for their efforts to be as evenhanded has they have, while being thought provoking (as opposed to recklessly provocative just for ratings or to draw in a particular "kind" of audience).

I agree, but I just don't think they were in this specific case. You'd really have to be looking for that to interpret it that way

I took it as a Hillary reference. I just didn't react adversely to it (in fairness, I voted for her in the primaries, so... make of that what you will).

Truth is, people have a hard time disjointing Hillary Clinton from the myth / character assassination that was conducted against her during the universal healthcare debate in the 1990s.

We're not very good at differentiating our nations rather stupid discourse from who are leaders really are. In fact, some of those leaders get swallowed whole by our stupid discourse. How do you think we get geniuses like John Edwards and Sarah Palin on our TV?

...I had a similar thought that at the end of the series, we pull back to the environment of the original series as they (Dirk Bennedict, et al) are actually watching this soap opera on the communal Galactica tv. ;) Original Adama stands up from his chair in humorous protest, "What bull$hit!"

I like it (even if they've have to use a CGI Lorne Green).

Of course, if the writers ever pulled such a stunt, we all would probably pool our funds and purchase a ride for them for the first manned landing on the Sun.

While an, "...and they all lived happily ever after" ending wouldn't be consistent with the tone of this series, I confess I'd like to see a few scenes of happiness and contentment with several of the characters....before Cavil and his group show up and blast everything to kingdom come. :eek:

All humans get 1 free goo-bath as a measure of final indulgence before we ethnic cleanse you once and for all! :p

In the Podcast for last week, RDM said that they filmed these scenes before the the Faces webisodes when they established the Hoshi-Gaeta love affair thing. He actually remarked that if he knew they were going to go there then he would have like to done just what you suggested.

Woe! Shocked.. LOL

Definitely a satisfying conclusion to the mutiny story. The only thing I was iffy about was Zarek's slaughter of the Quorum. I liked that we the viewers had to acknowledge that mutiny was at least somewhat justified given the experiences and beliefs of the mutineers. After the execution of the Quorum, I was in full-on no sympathy mode for Zarek (and Gaeta by proxy).

A bit of mustache twirling, perhaps, but no so far out of character for Zarek if you consider the kind of ends-justify-the-means revolutionary he was described as in events prior to the start of the series. No wonder Adama and the lot never trusted him!

I liked that we the viewers had to acknowledge that mutiny was at least somewhat justified given the experiences and beliefs of the mutineers. After the execution of the Quorum, I was in full-on no sympathy mode for Zarek (and Gaeta by proxy).

You were supposed to have no sympathy for the mutineers. If you did, the murder of the Quorum was meant to show you the error of your ways - in a manner even the most dense viewer could not ignore.

I guess some people have no problem with 100 slaughtered Colonial military by traitors, but you whack a dozen spineless politicians and all of a sudden you've crossed the line. ;)

I took it as a Hillary reference. I just didn't react adversely to it (in fairness, I voted for her in the primaries, so... make of that what you will).


You can take it as a Hilary reference, but to say that that was the intention, isn't giving enough credit to the writers or even McDonnell. Many politicians throughout the ages have used those same words, or similar ones. Groucho's right in that you had to be looking for a specific reference to see it. Yeah, it's there, but it could be applied to a number of situations, just as the BSG writers have always done. Many of their political allegories don't pertain to a particular event (even the occupation), but can be applied to numerous events throughout our history.

As for this episode, I think it has all been said already. :p This show is the best thing on tv. End of line.

I think you are the only one seeing a Hillary Clinton reference here, Hank. Nobody else seems to have gotten that at all. It was just a powerful moment that fits perfectly with the character of Roslyn. It was designed to raise goosebumps. If you thought it was "campy", then that's a valid stylistic criticism; comparing it to something HC may have said during a political campaign isn't. The two "speeches" weren't remotely similar in intensity, context or, obviously, intent. Let's move on.

I saw W. I saw:

"The people who knocked these towers down are gonna here from all of us soon."

"We will not tire. We will not falter. We will not fail."

I did not see Hillary in that speech.

Definitely a satisfying conclusion to the mutiny story.

As someone who was not happy with Zarek goes revolutionary (again), I am thrilled that this storyline ended rather quickly.

I guess some people have no problem with 100 slaughtered Colonial military by traitors, but you whack a dozen spineless politicians and all of a sudden you've crossed the line. ;)


Actually, the Quorum were anything but spineless. Their refusal to go along with Zarek's coup is what got them killed.

wow, just wow. I don't care what anyone says, if they think BSG has gone downhill, they're morons that need nice little simple minded individual packaged episodes.

This was probably the best 4 episodes of the show when taken together.


I guess that would be me. I thought it was getting good last week, but this episode wasn't that great. There were some good moments, but some typical BSG stupid scenes brought it back down.

Why is a callback to Hillary any more offensive than the blatant copy of Mormon cosmology throughout the series? Any Mit Romney haters out there? ;)

Even more a question- what is there to be ashamed of with a reference to HC (that one would need to vehemently deny the possibility or cast aspersions upon those who suggest it could be there)? Some people may approve, some people may disapprove, some people may not even pick up on it. It's one thing to say that one sees/not sees or agrees/not agrees with it, but to reflexively reject that it could ever be the case that the writers intended to make a connection (however fleeting) is a whole different level of non-receptiveness to an evidently aversive idea.

The reaction to premising the idea is just as interesting (if not more) as the results of the initial "what do you see in this ink blot test". I mean, if you don't see it, then what difference does it make to you ("you", in general) if someone else sees it? Does that ruin the show in some way if such an idea is floated as a possibility? Even if you like HC, how big a deal should it be to you if someone sees it, but you don't?

The only real source of legitimate objection (out of the available possibilities) would be if you like the show but do not like HC, and hence demand that no connection ever be acknowledged or even considered for fear of ruining the perception of the show to you. I guess a variation of that could be if you like the show but are fearful that others may not like HC, so any scenario that could potentially link the 2 becomes an aversive proposition, if your liking the show is somehow tied to others liking the show.

I guess that would be me. I thought it was getting good last week, but this episode wasn't that great. There were some good moments, but some typical BSG stupid scenes brought it back down.

Okay. You know there's no way you can make a statement like that without clarifying right? I'll be frank...if you didn't think the last two episodes constitute fantastic television, I'd love to know what does.

Even more a question- what is there to be ashamed of with a reference to HC (that one would need to vehemently deny the possibility or cast aspersions upon those who suggest it could be there)?
I don't think it's about being ashamed (well, as far as I'm concerned anyway O_o). It's just that the writers have never made such an assertive political stance/portrayal on the show before, so I have no idea why one would assume they'd start now.

As has been said before, they just throw it up in the air, and it's up to the viewer to make their own conclusions, which is what you did obviously. You just shouldn't be surprised that no one else saw it, since it's something that's been heard before coming from the mouths of others way before HC.

That's another thing that should be cleared up- I never said anybody should see it there, just because I did. Nor did I fault anyone if they did not see it. I simply said that I saw it, and invited others to agree or disagree. The real offense here is when others who do not see it automatically insist that others are faulty in some way if they do see it (as if they are some divine authority on the matter). By all accounts, it shouldn't really matter to those who don't see it, unless they are attempting to defend the show under some specific leaning as opposed to another. Either way, there's no reason to run down others who say they did see it.

Okay. You know there's no way you can make a statement like that without clarifying right? I'll be frank...if you didn't think the last two episodes constitute fantastic television, I'd love to know what does.


Ok, I should have elaborated. First, my best friend pissed me off this week when he told me that the reason Moore/Eick did the Razer movie and are looking to move down that road is so they don't have to pay Glen Larson. Apparently, the deal was for episodic tv not movies or other content. Typical bs of screwing people over in Hollywood. This isn't really part of it, but my best friend had to compete against the Razer movie for an animation award. The difference was his animation was for television, which is what the category was. Razer was a movie with a bigger budget and more time to work on it. Like I said this didn't play into my bias over BSG this week, as I knew about the awards last year.

As for stuff that irritated me this week, how about the just in time Chief taking off the FTL? I despise JIT plot lines. I absolutely cringed when I saw Starbuck shooting not one but two pistols cross armed. Really, I am an ex-Marine armorer. I know it looks cool, but that is almost worse than Bauer hitting a flea on a mountain with a pistol (nod to a famous cartoon:)). What really got me though was the Adama plot. First, him and Saul con and take out their original brig escort. I overlooked that last week, but this week they capture what ten Marines. Then they turn everyone back to Adamas side and march back to the command center. Honestly, I was hoping for something a little better after last weeks very good episode.
Having said that, I did love Tom. I absolutely loved him killing the Quorum. I also loved Gaeta and his coming to grips with the whole situation and trying to do what he thought was best. I really think this needed another episode to flesh out better.

As for stuff that irritated me this week, how about the just in time Chief taking off the FTL?. He is a Cylon on a space ship , he was resurrected from another Cylon, 2000 years ago, so he used super Cylon power to disable an FTL drive? A faster than light engine cooked up by writers.. I guess if you cant get into it, watch survivor man. :)

I despise JIT plot lines. I absolutely cringed when I saw Starbuck shooting not one but two pistols cross armed. Really, I am an ex-Marine armorer. I know it looks cool, but that is almost worse than Bauer hitting a flea on a mountain with a pistol (nod to a famous cartoon:)).
I could see that one. But, she is some kind of she devil, she burned her own body? She has super powers. I'm surprised that the scene in the latrine dint bother you. Where she smashed the guys face into the wall, while he was taking a leak, must of hit him with the Emperors special sith lightning, his head sparked on the wall and left a flash burn on the wall. That was realistic, in a space ship.
What really got me though was the Adama plot. First, him and Saul con and take out their original brig escort. I overlooked that last week, but this week they capture what ten Marines. Then they turn everyone back to Adamas side and march back to the command center. Honestly, I was hoping for something a little better after last weeks very good episode.
Having said that, I did love Tom. I absolutely loved him killing the Quorum. I also loved Gaeta and his coming to grips with the whole situation and trying to do what he thought was best. I really think this needed another episode to flesh out betterAdama did have super friend Tighs help, he is a machine no? I dint think they turned everyone over, they did tie up some or all them.

Killing the Quorum was dramatic and convenient, now things could move faster without a government. I did love how they kicked Zareck out, he did give them that speech about supporting the president, and they did, he must have forgotten, he was only the vice president. Love how they told him to get, and made it a point of calling him vice president.

I'm glad they dint drag this out any further, I had figured one more eps to end it, I was pleasantly surprised. To each his own.:)

On Starbuck's dumb use of firearms...

Every show or movie at some point indulges its inner obedience to the John Woo School of Heroic Firearms Poses. Mix in a little Tomb Raider and a couple B-movies with rappers in them and away you go!

I could do without such moronic things. I see no reason to pimp the notion that Starbuck is a zombie ninja commando (I mean, hey, we have a G.I. Joe movie coming this summer if you really need a dose of that).

But, it's TV.

I was just watching an old episode of Star Trek where Kirk whiped his face with the end of his weapon. So, ya know . . . TV isn't exactly the land of good muzzle control or reasonable efforts at aiming.

FINALLY we're back to actually talking about THE SHOW... I was beginning to think what a LONELY THREAD this was going to become after some of the best posters got moderated out for all this political and religious nonsense (and trust me -- I can talk ALL DAY on BOTH subjects, myself), but this isn't the place.

Like all great drama, BSG certainly has a lot of story lines that can be viewed as allegorical to contemporary events, and sometimes seem pretty clearly taken from current events -- Then again, the Cylon march into New Caprica looked an awful lot like the Nazis marching into Paris, to me -- much moreso than anything that happened in Iraq (and NO, I wasn't even born then -- I've just seen it in films). But everything IS a matter of point of view.

I think considering just HOW controversial some public figures are to many people, when one of us thinks we see a veiled reference to one of them we might just keep it to ourselves the next time, rather than set off a needless firestorm, which I'm certain was NOT the poster's intent. I gather I missed a debate about the morality of certain events perpetrated by Colonial rebels on New Caprica (I won't even say what events, although I know, by inference, because it could stir things up again). Same there. If it's something likely to stir strong feelings -- a very controversial subject, I think we can discuss it happening in the show, but we have to tread really carefully about where we go with such subjects as to relating them BEYOND the show and getting into morality, or we risk further moderation.

Frankly, I have far too much fun discussing this show with you folks to see this thread canned this close to the end, so let's all take care and agree to tread lightly with sensitive subjects, OK?
Jeff

Ok, I should have elaborated. First, my best friend pissed me off this week when he told me that the reason Moore/Eick did the Razer movie and are looking to move down that road is so they don't have to pay Glen Larson. Apparently, the deal was for episodic tv not movies or other content. Typical bs of screwing people over in Hollywood. This isn't really part of it, but my best friend had to compete against the Razer movie for an animation award. The difference was his animation was for television, which is what the category was. Razer was a movie with a bigger budget and more time to work on it. Like I said this didn't play into my bias over BSG this week, as I knew about the awards last year.

Your friend is wrong. Glen Larson is the one blocking a BSG movie (http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Battlestar-Galactica-Movie-Blocked-5406.html) because he doesn't like the new series. Actually, some of the original cast members (like Dirk Benedict here (http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/dbenedict/2009/01/19/lt-starbuck-lost-in-castration/#more-23605)) simply hate the new series. They're already auctioning off everything BSG. After the movie The Plan comes out later this year, that's it. That's all she wrote for the new BSG. Larson might try to see the original cheesefest reinvigorated, but I have no idea who in their right mind would ever fund that.

As for Razor, some of the VFX shots in the movie were actually below some of the best the television series has had to offer. I mean, you could have thrown anything on tv against Exodus: Part II and it would have lost. Whether it's Zoic studios or the guys they use now, they do unbelievable work.

As for stuff that irritated me this week, how about the just in time Chief taking off the FTL? I despise JIT plot lines. I absolutely cringed when I saw Starbuck shooting not one but two pistols cross armed. Really, I am an ex-Marine armorer. I know it looks cool, but that is almost worse than Bauer hitting a flea on a mountain with a pistol (nod to a famous cartoon:)). What really got me though was the Adama plot. First, him and Saul con and take out their original brig escort. I overlooked that last week, but this week they capture what ten Marines. Then they turn everyone back to Adamas side and march back to the command center. Honestly, I was hoping for something a little better after last weeks very good episode.
Having said that, I did love Tom. I absolutely loved him killing the Quorum. I also loved Gaeta and his coming to grips with the whole situation and trying to do what he thought was best. I really think this needed another episode to flesh out better.

It wasn't just Tigh who took out the marines...there were several others including Athena, Kelly and Lee from what I remember. Besides, they also had the element of surprise.

I won't dispute the shooting two guns part of it, except to say that I agree with Meowx2. It's dumb, but it just looks cool. :p

As for Tyrol, I'm pretty sure this show has proven that just because you expect something to happen, that doesn't mean it will. There was a chance the Chief would fail (no matter how small it was), and that's why I love this show.

Hey people, it's Ellen Tigh, not Helen Tigh. But, knowing her, she must be Helen Bed! :D:D

Yes. In the middle of Season 1, the President holds a press conference and in her hand she shows pictures of a Six and a Leoben.


No, the pics were of Leoben and Aaron Dorel (remember him? a model 5)? Six was still an unknown - only appearing as a vision to Baltar and as "Shelly Godfrey".

Every show or movie at some point indulges its inner obedience to the John Woo School of Heroic Firearms Poses. Mix in a little Tomb Raider and a couple B-movies with rappers in them and away you go!

If just one of those idiots would head to a firing range - a single hot shell casing ejected into their face would prompt them to do a rewrite.

Don't know if it was mentioned but check around, there is a Canadian Preview for next weeks episode up that has some interesting information... ;)

dfergie,

Mind posting a link?

dfergie,

Mind posting a link?
Not sure on the Forum rules here on that... checking... :)

pm'd you.

It's no problem.

If just one of those idiots would head to a firing range - a single hot shell casing ejected into their face would prompt them to do a rewrite.

I love how half the time <insert name of show or character here> they never shoot to slide lock....then the trigger is pulled, "Click" and a look of surprise crosses the character's face, "It's empty!" Oh no! :rolleyes:

Mormon cosmology? What is the show taking from them?

pm'd you.

It's no problem.Thanks! May contain spoilers for those that do not watch previews... ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbC4KkAUiL8

Mormon cosmology? What is the show taking from them?

too bad marie osmond couldnt do a cameo....now that she lost the weight she could fit into a raptor again.

edit: maybe she couldve fit into it before anyways....i mean look at "porkins". <<< i have his autograph. :cool:

If just one of those idiots would head to a firing range - a single hot shell casing ejected into their face would prompt them to do a rewrite.

Yeah, but that crap's been around since people in Hollywood decided that John Woo is the Bee's Knees.

- - -

Small thought on this ep:

What's up with a tightly ended episode?!

No cliffhanger?!

So non-BSG.

Yeah, but that crap's been around since people in Hollywood decided that John Woo is the Bee's Knees.

- - -

Small thought on this ep:

What's up with a tightly ended episode?!

No cliffhanger?!

So non-BSG.

I think it was necessary to remove the Quorum, and move on with the story. Personally I think they backed themselves in a corner, with the Cylons requesting an equal membership in the Quorum, that would have never happened easily, with so few episodes, now they're out of the way, and can always create a new one, with Cylons in it.

Thats my thinking.

Thanks! May contain spoilers for those that do not watch previews... ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbC4KkAUiL8

Dint look like a much of a spoiler, just a longer preview that apparently has aired somewhere.

I think it was necessary to remove the Quorum, and move on with the story. Personally I think they backed themselves in a corner, with the Cylons requesting an equal membership in the Quorum, that would have never happened easily, with so few episodes, now they're out of the way, and can always create a new one, with Cylons in it.

Thats my thinking.

:D Roslyn, selecting new Quorum members...

Q: Do you agree to have a Cylon representative on the Quorum?
A: No

NEXT!

:p

:D Roslyn, selecting new Quorum members...

Q: Do you agree to have a Cylon representative on the Quorum?
A: No

NEXT!

:p

Thats about how it would go. Nobody's going to tell her and Adama anything now. :D

Mormon cosmology? What is the show taking from them?

It's actually pretty interesting, but not well known. Here's a bit from an article about it (a pretty good summary):

Unbeknownst to most viewers, "Battlestar Galactica" has been steeped in religion since its very inception. First pitched by uber-producer Glen A. Larson as a series of Bible stories set in space called "Adam's Ark," the reworked "Battlestar Galactica" was also influenced by another religious book: the Book of Mormon. A member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Larson borrowed plot points from his faith's sacred texts.

"'Battlestar Galactica' and the Book of Mormon both start from the premise that civilization is either about to be destroyed or has just been destroyed and that there's this remnant, this ragtag fleet that is preserved," explains Jana Reiss, author of "What Would Buffy Do?" "The story of the Book of Mormon is set in the time frame of the destruction of Jerusalem. The prophet Lehi has a vision of the destruction of Jerusalem and was able to get his family out in time."

There are many other similarities between the show and the Latter-day Saint scripture. While not purely a Mormon concept, the idea of the "Lost Tribes of Israel"--that ten tribes of Israel were "lost" to history after they were exiled--plays an important role in both the religion and in the show. "The idea of there being these other civilizations that have the gospel is a main tenet in Mormonism," notes Reiss. "There is this idea, in the show, that Earth will be this colony that they don't have a record of but they believe it exists."
Additionally, on the original series, the ruling colonial governmental body was known as "The Quorum of Twelve," the name given to the top leadership council of the Church of Latter-day Saints. Perhaps the most obvious parallel between Mormonism and the show is the Kolob/Kobol connection. Continues Reiss, "Kobol on 'Battlestar Galactica' is where the gods live and in Mormonism Kolob is supposed to be the greatest star in the universe and is the dwelling place of God."

While developer and executive producer Ronald D. Moore did not intentionally move away from the original show's basic Mormon cosmology in the current incarnation, he chose not to expand upon it.

"I was aware that Glen had used Mormon influences and how he had created the cosmology, but I'm not that familiar with Mormon belief or practice so it was kind of like whatever was in the show is what I was dealing with," concedes Moore, who also worked on the "Star Trek" franchise. "I essentially looked at the original series as mythos and the way it dealt with religion in sort of a global sense."

I'm not a Mormon myself, but I know many of them and have studied the religion, having lived in Nauvoo, IL for a number of years back when the old show was on. I remember one of the original series where they meet the "gods" who say, "You are what we once were; What we are, you shall become," which is almost pure Mormon doctrine.

Anyway, that's the original series that has its roots clearly in Mormon cosmology, and by this one borrowing that original theme, it's still there. However, they haven't built on it, or so they say. Still, I find that "Kolob" vs. "Kobol" thing rather astounding. Don't you?

Wow...so many replies and I hardly see any negative...Moore and Eick are definitely doing something right

Can't wait for next week...I wish I could watch them all right now

Wow...so many replies and I hardly see any negative...Moore and Eick are definitely doing something right

Can't wait for next week...I wish I could watch them all right now

All the haters are on the SciFi forums. :p

All the haters are on the SciFi forums. :p

Really? Are they actually complaining about the last few eps? I won't go over there myself. I did that at the beginning of S4 and accidentally found out about the state of Earth. Some jerk didn't spoiler his comments in a random thread I was reading.

Anyway, I'd love to read the conversations over there but I won't do it until the series is over. I won't take the chance of spoiling the ending.

Dint look like a much of a spoiler, just a longer preview that apparently has aired somewhere.I thought that the bit with the injured Anders telling Starbuck to get the others because he remembers everything now was spoilery. It wasn't in the US television version of the preview, at all.I wonder why they have different versions in the US and Canada?

Of course, I don't mind a little spoilery (particularly when there can be so much misdirection :)), as long as major plot points aren't revealed.

I thought that the bit with the injured Anders telling Starbuck to get the others because he remembers everything now was spoilery. It wasn't in the US television version of the preview, at all.I wonder why they have different versions in the US and Canada?

Of course, I don't mind a little spoilery (particularly when there can be so much misdirection :)), as long as major plot points aren't revealed.

But seriously not much of a spoiler, it means nothing, unless he says what he remembers and he dint. Either way I wont disclose it for the sake of others.

It's actually pretty interesting, but not well known. Here's a bit from an article about it (a pretty good summary):



I'm not a Mormon myself, but I know many of them and have studied the religion, having lived in Nauvoo, IL for a number of years back when the old show was on. I remember one of the original series where they meet the "gods" who say, "You are what we once were; What we are, you shall become," which is almost pure Mormon doctrine.

Anyway, that's the original series that has its roots clearly in Mormon cosmology, and by this one borrowing that original theme, it's still there. However, they haven't built on it, or so they say. Still, I find that "Kolob" vs. "Kobol" thing rather astounding. Don't you?

Wow. Who knew? I guess we have the mormons to thank for something. :-)

I thought that the bit with the injured Anders telling Starbuck to get the others because he remembers everything now was spoilery. It wasn't in the US television version of the preview, at all.I wonder why they have different versions in the US and Canada?

Of course, I don't mind a little spoilery (particularly when there can be so much misdirection :)), as long as major plot points aren't revealed.

Different network/distribution, probably to try and grab more viewers.

In the UK, they probably have nude scenes we've never seen here. :p

Different network/distribution, probably to try and grab more viewers.

In the UK, they probably have nude scenes we've never seen here. :p

Oh STOP talking like that, Keenan! You'll have me wanting to move to the UK! :p

Oh STOP talking like that, Keenan! You'll have me wanting to move to the UK! :p

I'm sure you'd like the advertisements. They are at times funnier and get the message across easier than the mindless crap shoved at us! The thing that shocked me when we went was walking into the flat we were staying in and seeing a widescreen TV with a subscription/digital box conected.:rolleyes:

I'm sure you'd like the advertisements. They are at times funnier and get the message across easier than the mindless crap shoved at us!

Nothing says it better than this Mini Cooper commercial from the UK, seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69ucRgPtfrA). As a Mini owner myself, it's even better. :)

Really? Are they actually complaining about the last few eps? I won't go over there myself. I did that at the beginning of S4 and accidentally found out about the state of Earth. Some jerk didn't spoiler his comments in a random thread I was reading.

Anyway, I'd love to read the conversations over there but I won't do it until the series is over. I won't take the chance of spoiling the ending.

It's hilarious. But of course a lot of the hate comes from fans of the original who just hate the new series. Some are calling the mutiny a jump-the-shark moment. I even saw someone say that the Quorom getting shot was too predictable (what?). Here's the thread discussing the new episode. (http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2323908) You don't have to read that whole thing (I didn't), but check out the picture on the first page. Sackhoff's chest... :eek:

And I'm with you. I'm avoiding those forums for the most part as well. There are morons who put spoilers in the thread titles. =\

Wow. Who knew? I guess we have the mormons to thank for something. :-)

You know, one of the cooler things about BSG is that in a single week it incites conversation about everything from Hillary Clinton to firearms to Mormonism.

You actually have to be fairly with it to follow BSG.

It's hilarious. But of course a lot of the hate comes from fans of the original who just hate the new series. Some are calling the mutiny a jump-the-shark moment.

Ah, let us pause and remember that JTS is a specific form of publicity stunt intended to jump start a show that is listing. Aside from the Letterman appearance, I have never seen an authentic publicity stunt done by SciFi on behalf of BSG. And the Letterman stunt was successful and came at one of the show's high points (because the nebula was the first I ever felt like TV wasn't jerking me around).

I even saw someone say that the Quorom getting shot was too predictable (what?).

So it was predictable? Big deal. The fact that it was predictable is pretty surprising for BSG, a show that asks the audience to trust it during big leaps

New Caprica? Four of the Final Five revealed all at once? The fifth revealed with nine episodes left?

What I like most about BSG is they get the obvious crap, like the Planet of the Apes ending, out of the way quickly so they can proceed with the zany stuff like revealing the Final Five.

And no one ever has the right to call BSG predictable after Saul frakkin Tigh was revealed to be a Cylon.

Say what you want, but my jaw hurt from hitting the floor when I saw that.

Dint look like a much of a spoiler, just a longer preview that apparently has aired somewhere.

I thought it was fairly interesting because up to now we got the impression that four of the final five know they're Cylons but not know how they got there or what the big plan was. Looks like they're about to tell us.

Excellent episode. Just a slight dissapointment in how Gaeta just suddenly changed his mind. One minute he is gun ho to do whatever, then he calls it all off. Other then that, best episode of the new season.

Excellent episode. Just a slight dissapointment in how Gaeta just suddenly changed his mind. One minute he is gun ho to do whatever, then he calls it all off. Other then that, best episode of the new season.

Even though he thought the execution had been carried out, he knew that Adama still had a leg up on him.

Excellent episode. Just a slight disappointment in how Gaeta just suddenly changed his mind. One minute he is gun ho to do whatever, then he calls it all off. Other then that, best episode of the new season.

I mentioned this in a longer post earlier, but it seemed to me like when he heard that the FTL drive mysteriously went offline literally seconds before they were going to jump, Gaeta interpreted that as a "sign from the gods" that this was "the reckoning" that Adama had told him was coming. It was all going to fail and his part in this passion play was over. To some extent, he felt relief; you could see it in his face.

Excellent episode. Just a slight dissapointment in how Gaeta just suddenly changed his mind. One minute he is gun ho to do whatever, then he calls it all off. Other then that, best episode of the new season.

My take on this is that Gaeta believed that the fleet was backing him until he realized that they weren't when the quarum was killed off.

My take on this is that Gaeta believed that the fleet was backing him until he realized that they weren't when the quarum was killed off.

Yeah...that was the turning point...

Anyways...I can't see how you can hate at this point...with this many episodes left, you really just have to be on board now...just go with it...

Even though he thought the execution had been carried out, he knew that Adama still had a leg up on him.
Oh, man, that's just so bad! :)

The mutiny and its aftermath could not have been better. This was wonderful television. The only downside for me was that the PQ was a little murky, compared to what I am accustomed to seeing on the OTA networks. Still, it was wonderful entertainment.

Roslin’s tough vow to get Gaeta and Zarek was a great dramatic moment. Only an actress as superbly talented as Mary McDonell could have pulled that off. She made my hair stand on end. I didn’t get any Hillary Clinton reference out of it, although I don’t dismiss the possibility. Even if I had seen one, it wouldn’t have bothered me, although I never voted for either Hillary or Slick Willie. Either way, that was a powerfully dramatic scene.

I had always suspected that Tigh’s wife, Ellen, was a Cylon? You don’t suppose?

Zarek proved what I had always thought of him, he was brilliant but was also a liar and a murderous thug. In stark contrast, Gaeta was a good man but doomed, twisted by his own misfortunes into setting in motion a tragedy worthy of the Greeks, which ended with the deaths of many, including his own. Despite their failings, Zarek and Gaeta did die with dignity and grace. Somebody suggested that they weren’t really shot. Although it seems unlikely, given the nature of television drama it’s certainly possible. Anyway, this was wonderful stuff

RIP Gaeta...

BTW was that a good job of having an amputee leg or the actor is really like that? nice old fashion FX there..


I was happy to see both Sixes in the episode..

Oh, man, that's just so bad! :)

The mutiny and its aftermath could not have been better. This was wonderful television. The only downside for me was that the PQ was a little murky, compared to what I am accustomed to seeing on the OTA networks. Still, it was wonderful entertainment.

Roslin’s tough vow to get Gaeta and Zarek was a great dramatic moment. Only an actress as superbly talented as Mary McDonell could have pulled that off. She made my hair stand on end. I didn’t get any Hillary Clinton reference out of it, although I don’t dismiss the possibility. Even if I had seen one, it wouldn’t have bothered me, although I never voted for either Hillary or Slick Willie. Either way, that was a powerfully dramatic scene.

I had always suspected that Tigh’s wife, Ellen, was a Cylon? You don’t suppose?

Zarek proved what I had always thought of him, he was brilliant but was also a liar and a murderous thug. In stark contrast, Gaeta was a good man but doomed, twisted by his own misfortunes into setting in motion a tragedy worthy of the Greeks, which ended with the deaths of many, including his own. Despite their failings, Zarek and Gaeta did die with dignity and grace. Somebody suggested that they weren’t really shot. Although it seems unlikely, given the nature of television drama it’s certainly possible. Anyway, this was wonderful stuff

I dont' understand - we "don't suppose" Ellen is a cylon? It was pretty much confirmed back on earth when Tigh had that flashback which showed he was with Ellen when the earth was destroyed 2000 years ago.

I agree - this was all wondeful stuff. Gaeta is definitely dead. Zarek is most definitely dead. The acceptance and resignation on their faces - combined with the fact that Adama yelled Fire and all the guns went off - yeah, that pretty much seals it. BSG plays dramatic guessing games, but I can't see them all the sudden saying later down the road, "oops, all the guns missed, so we let them go."

Someone earlier put it best - if all the guns missed, or jammed, Adama would have gone up and strangled them himself.

Yeah...that was the turning point...

Anyways...I can't see how you can hate at this point...with this many episodes left, you really just have to be on board now...just go with it...

Hey, I think its great TV. I never said that I hated it.

Excellent episode. Just a slight dissapointment in how Gaeta just suddenly changed his mind. One minute he is gun ho to do whatever, then he calls it all off. Other then that, best episode of the new season.

He was only doing what he thought was right, even if misguided. He realized he was wrong, and accepted responsibility for his actions.

You kind of saw that in the CIC as things were falling apart, cool calm Felix knowing it was over and the outcome. He accepted he was wrong. Zarack scared, frustrated, and angry. You could tell Zarack would have run to save his own ass if he could; live to cause trouble another day.

Did anyone notice Hera had a line in this last episode? I do believe it's the first we've heard from her, although I don't think it was a plot changer. heh.

RIP Gaeta...

BTW was that a good job of having an amputee leg or the actor is really like that? nice old fashion FX there..


I was happy to see both Sixes in the episode..


Nope, it's green screen FX for wide screen shots, then old fashion props for the closeups. Think Rose McGowan in Planet Terror.

He was only doing what he thought was right, even if misguided. He realized he was wrong, and accepted responsibility for his actions.

You kind of saw that in the CIC as things were falling apart, cool calm Felix knowing it was over and the outcome. He accepted he was wrong. Zarack scared, frustrated, and angry. You could tell Zarack would have run to save his own ass if he could; live to cause trouble another day.

Did anyone notice Hera had a line in this last episode? I do believe it's the first we've heard from her, although I don't think it was a plot changer. heh.




Nope, it's green screen FX for wide screen shots, then old fashion props for the closeups. Think Rose McGowan in Planet Terror.

Or Lt. Dan in Forrest Gump.

So in light of the number of posters on this thread, and the forthcoming demise of this series, let's see how well the intelligentsia can do under the circumstances.

Setting aside the trite and the obvious 'This has all happened before and it will all happen again' mobius strip dogma initially laid down from the incept by the creative team, what viable alternatives exist for the denizens and progeny of the BSG human and cylon races, that might produce a more unique and satisfying conclusion to this series, which would side-step the blanket superficiality of the pre-ordained, and perhaps deliver a more interesting or satisfying result?

Gentlemen ;) , the gauntlet is down. Start your engines.

_____________________________________________

Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

So in light of the number of posters on this thread, and the forthcoming demise of this series, let's see how well the intelligentsia can do under the circumstances.

Setting aside the trite and the obvious 'This has all happened before and it will all happen again' mobius strip dogma initially laid down from the incept by the creative team, what viable alternatives exist for the denizens and progeny of the BSG human and cylon races, that might produce a more unique and satisfying conclusion to this series, which would side-step the blanket superficiality of the pre-ordained, and perhaps deliver a more interesting or satisfying result?

Gentlemen, the gauntlet is down. Start your engines.


After being tossed around to and fro by this show for 5 years now, this card-carrying member of The Intelligentsia must finally admit that he's just not as intelligent as Moore and his buddies in that writing room. :p I think we're sort of on to something when we speak of the mixing of Cylon and human to create a new "hybrid species". But then I try to explain Starbuck and, admittedly, I got nuthin'. :confused: :o

One place they've never gone in this show is time-travel, alternate universes, and the like. Can't see them starting now, but I'm hard pressed to see how they're going to resolve everything without a mcguffin or two. Yet, I believe they will. ;)

On Mary McDonnell . . .

Does anyone remember the Super Bowl ad from a couple years ago with the woman just unloading on her husband, who's sitting there just right as rain the whole time?

I'd love to hear Mary McDonnell scream, "Would it kill you to show me some attention some time?!"

If Mary McDonnell were pissed at me and screaming, I would comply with whatever she wants just to hear some silence.

After being tossed around to and fro by this show for 5 years now, this card-carrying member of The Intelligentsia must finally admit that he's just not as intelligent as Moore and his buddies in that writing room. :p
Why do I get the feeling that card is the same dog-eared phony driver's license you used to try to get into bars with when you were under age? :D

I think we're sort of on to something when we speak of the mixing of Cylon and human to create a new "hybrid species". But then I try to explain Starbuck and, admittedly, I got nuthin'. :confused: :o
Well, add to that, that there seems to be certain members who, right or wrong, consider BSG to be a dark show generally. I find it difficult to reconcile a new 'hybrid species' as being particularly dark, as the already existing cylons ARE prsumably a hybrid species which is an extension of the human race.

I'm sure hoping there's something a lot more interesting than that in RDM's production line thinking. :(

_________________________________________________
Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

On Mary McDonnell . . .

.

You should see Grey's anatomy, she's screams there also... (and likes to be tightly hugged)

I dont' understand - we "don't suppose" Ellen is a cylon? It was pretty much confirmed back on earth when Tigh had that flashback which showed he was with Ellen when the earth was destroyed 2000 years ago.
In seasons before the current one, I had to watch BSG in SD or not at all. Consequently, I missed more than a few episodes, including, apparently, the one that seems to reveal that Ellen is a Cylon.

In seasons before the current one, I had to watch BSG in SD or not at all. Consequently, I missed more than a few episodes, including, apparently, the one that seems to reveal that Ellen is a Cylon.It was revealed at the very end of "Sometimes a Great Notion", season 4, episode 11, which aired on January 16th, three episodes before this last one. Surely you didn't miss that one? It was the first new episode of BSG since June.

Surely you didn't miss that one?

Don't call him Shirley :-)

I think it was necessary to remove the Quorum, and move on with the story. Personally I think they backed themselves in a corner, with the Cylons requesting an equal membership in the Quorum, that would have never happened easily, with so few episodes, now they're out of the way, and can always create a new one, with Cylons in it.

Thats my thinking. I think the killing of the Quorum was necessary for Felix to see how much in over his head he was. In the end he had no idea what he had gotton into with Zarak. And while waiting to die he talks about his past with Baltar completely ignoring his upcoming execution. When Geatta didnt kill Adama as soon as he captured him all of us knew the mutiny would fail.

Personally I thought the Roslin proclamation was as powerful a moment as I've seen in a while.

As far as the "Not now, Not ever" -- generally I don't see the connection other than being 2 women. Maybe I misremember, but was that not said in June at the convention. I avoid previews/commercials for BSG like the plague and I wish this forum would spoilerize anything not seen in the main show (doesn't seem to be official policy unlike some other boards however). BUT if Roslin's line has been in commercials/previews since the end of Season 4.0 then that was filmed well before the Sumemr Conventions so that should negate any overt nod to HC.
I do not think it was a Hillary reference at all.

I think the killing of the Quorum was necessary for Felix to see how much in over his head he was.

Killing the Quorum was necessary because that's how revolutions are conducted. The best any parliamentary body can hope in any revolution is to be dissolved (preferably in the metaphoric sense) and banned from future governments.

I still find the return to revolution by Zarek to be a bit lame. Yeah, I enjoyed the episode, and killing Zarek is better than doing nothing with him.

But, I thought the show actually does an awful job of depicting successful cultures of resistance. In a situation like the Colonials are in, people rally to strength. In fact, the greatest political pressure the Colonials would face is the urge to make Adama undisputed leader.

The dynamic that would emerge would be something akin to how the Turks responded to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Adama would become a figure like Attaturk, and people would follow him even even despite their reservations about his policies. In that regard, integrating the Cylons would be tolerated purely because no one would cross the Old Man.

A guy like Zarek in the real world would know better than to cross Adama.

EDIT: After reading what I wrote, I'll concede that revolutionary Zarek is more interesting TV than Zarek waiting for the Old Man to die.

Well with regards to Zarek. People do what the know; he knew revolution, resistance to authority, and used thuggish means when needed. He was ego driven as much for the cause. He was simple "Doing what Does".

So in light of the number of posters on this thread, and the forthcoming demise of this series, let's see how well the intelligentsia can do under the circumstances.

Setting aside the trite and the obvious 'This has all happened before and it will all happen again' mobius strip dogma initially laid down from the incept by the creative team, what viable alternatives exist for the denizens and progeny of the BSG human and cylon races, that might produce a more unique and satisfying conclusion to this series, which would side-step the blanket superficiality of the pre-ordained, and perhaps deliver a more interesting or satisfying result?

Gentlemen ;) , the gauntlet is down. Start your engines.

_____________________________________________

Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind


With all the twists and turns so far, I couldn't even be bothered to try. I'll just go along the ride, but after the past few weeks an observation I saw, when taken with the whole of the series makes sense; no matter what, the only thing that can come of Cylons and Humans is an armistice. There's just too much between them for reconciliation for the foreseeable future.

With that said, I'll be horrible disappointed if time travel rears it's head in any form. With Moores hatred of technobable, and his leanings to make this "us" in the not too distance future, I don't think he'll go that route.

But we shall see.

EDIT: After reading what I wrote, I'll concede that revolutionary Zarek is more interesting TV than Zarek waiting for the Old Man to die.

Isn't that the understatement of the day ;)

I thought it was well timed. Don't forget that Adama never had any political ambitions what so ever. The timing was right, as Zarack was always interested in securing his revolution, his rise to power.

The power vacuum left from Roslin was just the event he had been waiting for. Weather the people, or the quorum would support him was a moot point for him. the fact that he wanted to strand the ships that powered down their FTL's made that point. The only people worthy of their protection were those loyal to Felix and Zaracks point of view.

It's what makes Zaracks triads about democracy and abuse of power from previous episodes so insulting.

It was revealed at the very end of "Sometimes a Great Notion", season 4, episode 11, which aired on January 16th, three episodes before this last one. Surely you didn't miss that one? It was the first new episode of BSG since June.
Yeah, I saw that episode, all right, but had missed so many episodes in Season 3 that the revelation about Ellen slipped right by me. I just watched the episode again and was amazed to realize how much other stuff I had missed when I first saw it. I am better now, though. :)

Trying to come up with a satisfying ending to a series like BSG is a job I don't envy. Someone is bound to be disappointed....and I expect we shall hear a lot of that in a month or so.

Of course, that doesn't stop us from beginning the laundry list of things that we feel need some type of explanation:

1. Where did the current Starbuck and her spanking new Viper come from
2. Why all the references to an Opera House
3. Who nuked Earth and why
4. How did Baltar really survive the aftershock of a nuclear blast
5. What is the real nature of "head Six" (and where's she been lately?)
6. Where did the music come from that the 4 "OMG we are Cyclons" heard
7. How come Saul Tigh ages if he is a Cylon
8. What did they do with Kara's eggs
9. What exactly is her "destiny"
10. Who actually created the humanoid Cylons---the metalhead Toasters?---really?

...and so forth....

Trying to come up with a satisfying ending to a series like BSG is a job I don't envy. Someone is bound to be disappointed....and I expect we shall hear a lot of that in a month or so.

Of course, that doesn't stop us from beginning the laundry list of things that we feel need some type of explanation:

1. Where did the current Starbuck and her spanking new Viper come from
2. Why all the references to an Opera House
3. Who nuked Earth and why
4. How did Baltar really survive the aftershock of a nuclear blast
5. What is the real nature of "head Six" (and where's she been lately?)
6. Where did the music come from that the 4 "OMG we are Cyclons" heard
7. How come Saul Tigh ages if he is a Cylon
8. What did they do with Kara's eggs
9. What exactly is her "destiny"
10. Who actually created the humanoid Cylons---the metalhead Toasters?---really?

...and so forth....

I also really hope they get around to explaining why Baltar had visions of Six (and vice-versa).

Gentlemen ;) , the gauntlet is down. Start your engines.


Gauntlet sidestepped.

The only truly satisfying conclusion for most fans - home delivery of Sixes. So being similarly shallow, I'll take a Six, a Three, an Eight, and a couple of Starbucks.

Realistically, I don't see a happy ending...more like something along the lines of mutual annihilation.

I would say that the remaining cylons and humans come to the conclusion that if they don't want it all to happen again, then they must intermingle and become one race.

You'll go broke just maintaining their shoe collection! :p

You'll go broke just maintaining their shoe collection! :p

No, once you give them shoes, the Revolution begins. Best keep them unencumbered by any liberating accoutrements such as clothing. :-)

Not really, Mr. Hanky... I'd keep 'em all barefoot -- except for the Starbuck -- I'd keep her in charge of... coffee runs, of course :p (although I prefer Eight O'Clock French Roast)... And home security, too. Any home would be secure with a Starbuck on guard. :cool:

Don't forget Katee will be on Nip/Tuck.

I would say that the remaining cylons and humans come to the conclusion that if they don't want it all to happen again, then they must intermingle and become one race.

Another way for it not to happen again? Mutual annihilation (already posited by a previous poster).

I would say that the remaining cylons and humans come to the conclusion that if they don't want it all to happen again, then they must intermingle and become one race.

I don't think that's compatible with the fundamental theme of the show. Plus, the ending has already happened before, and it will happen again. So it's looking like the humans and Cylons will find a single home, but ultimately stay separated in some fundamental way.

The overarching theme we take from all this is that humanity\cylon are destined to repeat their sins for eternity, as History and knowledge are lost to time.

It's rather fitting, as our cultures have a hard time learning from our past and the lessons that we have readily available in a much shorter time span.

Don't forget Katee will be on Nip/Tuck.

ew....lets hope its not a nude scene....rather have the airlock chick for that....not the one that got shot out of the airlock....the one that did the shooting out of the airlock.

edit: tory....totally blanked on her name.

check out the picture on the first page. Sackhoff's chest... :eek:

I noticed how well she carried them in this episode the first time I saw that scene :D And the view of her walking away at the end of the scene wasn't bad either...

So in light of the number of posters on this thread, and the forthcoming demise of this series, let's see how well the intelligentsia can do under the circumstances.

Setting aside the trite and the obvious 'This has all happened before and it will all happen again' mobius strip dogma initially laid down from the incept by the creative team, what viable alternatives exist for the denizens and progeny of the BSG human and cylon races, that might produce a more unique and satisfying conclusion to this series, which would side-step the blanket superficiality of the pre-ordained, and perhaps deliver a more interesting or satisfying result?

Gentlemen ;) , the gauntlet is down. Start your engines.

_____________________________________________

Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind


I think the Lords of Kobol are a power we have yet to see. I don't know who or what they are, but I think they are responsible for the Opera House visions and Starbuck's "return." I would not be terribly surprised if we see a "ship of light" (or its equivalent) before the end.

I don't think Galactica (the ship) will survive. I think the stress fracture Tyrol saw in the FTL room is an indication of that.

I think the Cylons on the ruined Earth are the ancestors of humanity (e.g., the Final Five are really "human" even though the Colonial terminology calls them "Cylon"). I think the Colonials believe they are human but are really something else (at least from our vantage point of what human is).

I think the nuking of Earth that Tyrol and Tigh saw was the "first" Cylon (toaster/chrome robot)-human war ("this has all happened before and will happen again").

I don't think they will ever explain what the Cylon "plan" was.

I think the nuked Earth is our Earth in the future, after some kind of resurrection technology was invented, allowing the Final Five to escape the Cylon annihilation and flee to Kobol. Therefore, the timeframe of Galactica is several thousand years hence.

I think the Cavil contingent will appear and some will obey the Final Five but some will not (Cavil and the eights won't). They will be destroyed (and probably Galactica destroyed in the process). Ellen's return as the Fifth will play a role in this (though I'm not sure what).

They will find a home, but I have no idea what it is or where it will be.

ew....lets hope its not a nude scene....

she looks rather good in the preview...like...really good

1. Where did the current Starbuck and her spanking new Viper come from

Deus ex.

2. Why all the references to an Opera House

The Opera is symbolic. It implies a longing for a lost golden age of humanity.

5. What is the real nature of "head Six" (and where's she been lately?)

RDM has said this will be explained before the end of the show.

6. Where did the music come from that the 4 "OMG we are Cyclons" heard

It's a beacon. Very likely the same beacon Starbuck heard, only they had the right receiver to hear it.

7. How come Saul Tigh ages if he is a Cylon

The final five are different than the seven who are engineered. The Engineered Seven represent more robotics than biology. It's even possible that all their robotic limitations and difference are deliberate, as the Final Five were already on the receiving end of their own apocalypse.

8. What did they do with Kara's eggs

Indeed. Would be a good vehicle for explaining her return. Of course, it almost implies that one of the Final Five had to present and able to return to Earth. Sam has a lot of lost time that is never explained.

9. What exactly is her "destiny"

I think her destiny, insofar as the whole harbinger of the apocalypse, is over. Whatever that evil was, I think it went up in smoke with her original body. Remember, fire often represents rebirth and / or new knowledge.

My theories a bit over-complex, but I actually like the notion that her death and resurrection represent a necessary break from her destiny. In other words, she had to die to lose the black cloud over her head.

10. Who actually created the humanoid Cylons---the metalhead Toasters?---really?

Chicken or the egg, through many, many iterations. To the point no one really knows the answer.

10. Who actually created the humanoid Cylons---the metalhead Toasters?---really?

Chicken or the egg, through many, many iterations. To the point no one really knows the answer.

I STILL believe that ALL 12 MODELS came to life at least ONCE through natural birth on their home planet, but the first 7, at some point during the "Toaster" Cylon evolution and/or first Rebellion/war a "switch" went off in their heads similar to what happened to "The Four" in the nebula and they became self-aware of being Cylons and quietly slipped out of "human civilization" and became part of the Cylon nation, began leading the mechanical Cylons, developed cloning technologies to duplicate themselves, and at some point when they felt comfortable that they could begin to build their numbers in anonymity, they had the "Toasters" call a truce with the colonies and disappeared into "their territory" for 40 years to give them plenty of time to build up plenty of both mechanical AND biological forces, intellect, ships and weaponry, at which point some of the Original 7 quietly infiltrated society again (some as "sleepers," not even aware they WERE Cylons), and the rest is BSG history.
Jeff

I don't think that's compatible with the fundamental theme of the show. Plus, the ending has already happened before, and it will happen again. So it's looking like the humans and Cylons will find a single home, but ultimately stay separated in some fundamental way.

The overarching theme we take from all this is that humanity\cylon are destined to repeat their sins for eternity, as History and knowledge are lost to time.

It's rather fitting, as our cultures have a hard time learning from our past and the lessons that we have readily available in a much shorter time span.

Good post. Another literation would be that the Cavil cylons stay seperate and then 2000 years later show back up to do battle with the colonials and remaining cylons.

Deus ex.

They darned well better not! That would be too big a plot hole for most of us to swallow!

The Opera is symbolic. It implies a longing for a lost golden age of humanity.

That I could accept---though it could be a long lost golden age of Cylonity

RDM has said this will be explained before the end of the show.

He'd better!

It's a beacon. Very likely the same beacon Starbuck heard, only they had the right receiver to hear it.

Beacon for sure. But where is the source?

The final five are different than the seven who are engineered. The Engineered Seven represent more robotics than biology. It's even possible that all their robotic limitations and difference are deliberate, as the Final Five were already on the receiving end of their own apocalypse.

I'll have to think more about that one, but, possibly

Indeed. Would be a good vehicle for explaining her return. Of course, it almost implies that one of the Final Five had to present and able to return to Earth. Sam has a lot of lost time that is never explained.

Well, that would explain her being a clone, and I suppose the Cylons could have downloaded her memory into a new adult body---but I'm not convince that it is the Cylons behind this. I think it is someone or something else---though who or what is up for grabs. As I and a number of others have hinted at, the Ship of Lights and its inhabitants haven't made an appearance in this version of the series. That could be the source of the "new" Starbuck.



I think her destiny, insofar as the whole harbinger of the apocalypse, is over. Whatever that evil was, I think it went up in smoke with her original body. Remember, fire often represents rebirth and / or new knowledge.

My theories a bit over-complex, but I actually like the notion that her death and resurrection represent a necessary break from her destiny. In other words, she had to die to lose the black cloud over her head.

That could be, certainly...but that would be a "meh" destiny for me.


Chicken or the egg, through many, many iterations. To the point no one really knows the answer.

Well, the writers will have to come up with one. That's too big a question to leave unanswered

Sam doesn't really have any missing time (at least after Starbuck's capture/rescue) - he was with the resistance on Caprica.

Is there a good timeline somewhere out there for what we know so far? Perhaps I can start a rudimentary one, and others can fill in what we know about the history of what is going on. Perhaps that will help as some of this is a bit confusing.

What is particularly confusing is the "Final Five" and the "Temple of the Five" - are these two the same? I always kind of assumed they were, but how does it fit in the timeline?

So here is what I believe we know right now:

4000 years ago, the Temple of Five is built on the Algae planet. If my memory serves, the fleet had to fly through some kind of vicious anomaly to get to this planet - didn't it kill someone via radiation? Is the Temple of Five the same as the Final Five? Dianna has vision of "final five" in "temple of five" - certainly seems they are linked. However, Tyrol, as a "final five" has memory of life on earth 2000 years, and they clearly show others around that are not "final five" models. Tyrol is also "drawn" to the temple of five somehow. Starbuck has visions of the supernova that destroys the algae planet?

Sometime prior to 2000 years ago, the 13th tribe leaves Kobol and becomes the "lost tribe of Kobol" - it becomes written in the scriptures that the 13th tribe leaves Kobol and settles on earth. Someone leaves "markers" that point the way toward earth, implying that someone or something (the final five?) left ways to find earth when THEY came back. Someone had to come back and lay the markers down, unless the 13th tribe knew where they were going and left the markers as they went... Also, one of the markers has a virus that kills cylons.

2000 years ago, earth is destroyed via a nuclear war. It is discovered that all the remains on earth are cylon - skinjobs and toasters are found in the remains. Also at that time, present day final four all have visions back to the time of the war (it is assumed): Tyrol sees the blast as he is walking around the city street. Anders has a memory sparked of "playing" the song they all heard when he picks up remnants of a guitar (music star?) Tory? Did she have a vision? If so, I don't remember. Saul remembers Ellen and he together during chaos that is assumed to be the nuclear blast in a bank? Ellen says they will be together again someday - implying resurrection. Can only the final five resurrect? Can anyone on earth resurrect? If so, what happens to the rest of the civilization and why didn't they download, why only the 5?

2000 years ago, the 12 tribes leave Kobol and settle on Caprica (were there other planets they settled on as well in the same general vicinity? I was always unclear whether there were other planets for the other tribes).

Sometime between 2000 years ago and 40 years ago, the final five make their way to the 12 colonies and infiltrate the humans. However, Tyrol has memories of his parents, his father being a priest(?) of some sort? Implanted memories? Moreover, Saul serves with Adama during the first cylon war, which happened...

Also, sometime between 2000 years ago and 40 years ago, the 12 colonies make artificial intelligence - in fact, make the toaster cylons. However, the only evidence of this is implied from the tagline "They were created by Man". But when?

Before 40 years ago - the first cylon war. The toasters turn on humans, which starts a long protracted war with the metal cylons.

40 years ago - truce called, all the toasters leave to "cylon space". Not heard from until 3-4 years ago.

4 years ago, 6s and others show up on Caprica and on the space station, launch a massive attack to wipe out humanity - start nuclear war. We find out there are 12 models total, but only 7 are known. (Models 1-6 and 8; does this imply there was a "7" that was completely discontinued? Is one of the final five a "7"? Or was this just the way the story was originally written, before the writers fleshed out about "the final five.") The rest we know, or think we know, from what has played out on the series.

Anyone want to correct or fill in something I may have missed?

This is the timeline Battlestar Wiki has:

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_%28RDM%29

Anyone want to correct or fill in something I may have missed?

You should probably mention Boomer and Chief Tyrol joining the fleet unaware they were cylons.

Models 1-6 and 8; does this imply there was a "7" that was completely discontinued? Is one of the final five a "7"? Or was this just the way the story was originally written, before the writers fleshed out about "the final five."

This is a flat-out continuity error that RDM & Co never intend to fix.

According to interviews, the Final Five are not part of the original story arc for the show, and don't really come into focus until halfway through season three.

Understanding continuity errors on TV shows tends toward the historiographic side. You really have to understand how the writing evolved. In BSG's case, a lot of decisions were made without consideration to the larger story arc.

In this particular case, The Final Five were a big reveal that the writers went with despite the glaring continuity errors they cause.

One person's continuity error is another person's reveal of more information.

One person's continuity error is another person's reveal of more information.

I agree. Before we label things "continuity errors", let's just see what they have in mind for the endgame and how they intend to tie things together. Less than 2 months until we all find out anyways.

If the missing #7 has been admitted by the writers and producers to have been because they changed the plot in mid-series, then it was a continuity error, whether they manage to write it into the new plot or not. If they'd not originally planned to have this special "Final Five" (which, AFAWK, have no model numbers), then perhaps they'd meant to gradually reveal nos. 7, 9, 10, 11 and 12 over the course of the developing plot. If that was the plan, it seems much less conspicuous that the first seven models we meet just happen to be nos. 1 through 7 (bad enough that they include nos. 1 through 6 :)).

I agree. Before we label things "continuity errors", let's just see what they have in mind for the endgame and how they intend to tie things together. Less than 2 months until we all find out anyways.

I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt that they have always had something in mind...rather than they just never learned to count. :D

Without opening yet another can of worms, and given that BSG has a rather large dose of religion in it, the number 7 is sometimes identified as a "god" number that can represent, among other things: perfection, completeness, sabbath rest, and so on.

Has it been firmly establish (via RDM or others) that the "final five" don't have numbers assigned to them? If not, why wouldn't Ellen be #7?

Wow, good stuff in that Wiki timeline, partially reproduced here:
BCH=Before Cylon Holocaust
Ancient History

* Over 17,000 years BCH: A supernova creates the Ionian nebula
* ca. 4,000 years BCH: The Thirteenth Tribe reportedly leaves Kobol and builds the Temple of Five on another planet [1]
* ca. 3,600 years BCH: Pythia records her prophecies. Aside from reports of the landing on Earth and drawings of temples there, this book describes "the exile and rebirth of the human race" and a "dying leader" not making it to a "promised land," though how long before her writings that such events took place is not revealed.
* ca. 3,000 years BCH: A beacon is left at the Lion's Head Nebula, later marking the way to Earth. At some undated point, someone travels from Earth to Kobol, passing on information about Earth, including a map of its night sky [2]
* ca. 2,000 years BCH:
o The remaining Twelve Tribes leave Kobol [1]
o Lord of Kobol "Athena" kills herself in despair over this. A tomb is built for her containing a 3-D projection showing Earth and its Zodiac. The projection is activated by the Arrow of Apollo, which travels with the twelve tribes.
o Earth is left a nuclear wasteland. Copies of the Final Five die in a nuclear attack, though they have plans to be "born again."
* 2,000 years to 52 years BCH: The Twelve Colonies grow and prosper. Each colony acts as a sovereign nation, complete with inter-colonial wars

I've lost track of how many episodes are left. My brother keeps asking me and I've been making up numbers. :)

How many are left?

I've lost track of how many episodes are left. My brother keeps asking me and I've been making up numbers. :)

How many are left?

There are 10 final episodes. We've seen 4.

I've lost track of how many episodes are left. My brother keeps asking me and I've been making up numbers. :)

How many are left?

Tell him 19, Jim (that's my "favorite number), just to mess with his head and "get him" for being a pest! :p

As for that Wiki, think I'll have to read that sometime this week... Wikipedia is AMAZING with the level of detail it has about some things in it. Last week a re-run of "Eleventh Hour" had DARPA in it, and out of curiosity I decided to see if they were accurately representing DARPA (they were). Wikipedia had loads of stuff on DARPA (well, considering it IS a fairly sensitive/secretive government agency).

Don't have time to do the Wiki thing right now, but I'll probably get to it sometime tonight, although I'm almost afraid I'll learn something that will make me figure out maybe more than I should know, lol.
Jeff

I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt that they have always had something in mind...rather than they just never learned to count. :DThis is a flat-out continuity error that RDM & Co never intend to fix.

According to interviews, the Final Five are not part of the original story arc for the show, and don't really come into focus until halfway through season three.Moore says, in this (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html) interview:
...But at the point that we killed Ellen, around the same time frame, I was starting to come up with the idea that there were five Cylons that had yet to be revealed.

At the beginning of the third season, Baltar had gone to live on the Cylon base ship for a string of episodes. And it was really that plot move that threw into relief -- well, once Baltar’s over in the Cylon world, why wouldn’t he see all 12 of them? How could we get around that and parcel that out? Then I had this idea, well, what if it’s not random? What if there’s a meaning to the fact that we haven’t seen the five of them? And that’s how the Final Five became part of the mythos.As MeowMeow says, they were into the third season before they even came up with the idea of a mysterious, "fundamentally different", non-numbered "Final Five" Cylon models. Long before that, they'd given numbers to the other seven.
Has it been firmly establish (via RDM or others) that the "final five" don't have numbers assigned to them? If not, why wouldn't Ellen be #7?Yes, in that RDM said so in an interview (http://www.thefutoncritic.com/rant.aspx?id=20080611) held after a special pre-screening of "Revelations" in LA:
8:46 p.m.: Time for audience Q&A. Someone asks if the "final five" Cylons have model numbers and if/how the 12 tie into the colonials' mythology (i.e. is someone Gemini, is someone Taurus, etc.). Ron answers that the final five do not have model numbers, adding that "the pairing of the 12 colonies and the 12 gods and the 12 tribes and the number 12 - there's a certain repetition of the number in the mythology of the show - there's not a direct correlation between what you're asking about."(That site asks that it not be quoted, but it's just so much more easy to understand than trying to describe where to find that part of the interview. I did give a link as well :)).

If I felt a need for an explanation of why there's no #7 Cylon model (which I don't :rolleyes:), I'd assume that perhaps they created a #7, but the model didn't work out and they were discontinued and destroyed. Or maybe it is a religiously significant number for them, and they skipped it on purpose, in the same way that many high-rise buildings don't have a floor numbered 13.

Personally, I'll be satisfied if they give a reasonable explanation for the ersatz Starbuck and the brand new Viper she rode in on, with its special receiver which could hear the signal from the real Starbuck's crashed-and-burned Viper. That's been driving me nuts ever since it showed up out of nowhere.

Personally, I'll be satisfied if they give a reasonable explanation for the ersatz Starbuck and the brand new Viper she rode in on, with its special receiver which could hear the signal from the real Starbuck's crashed-and-burned Viper. That's been driving me nuts ever since it showed up out of nowhere.

Personally, there is a certain level of symmetry there that is really cool. Here Starbuck has a special destiny - that she is the Harbinger of death, she will lead them to their end. She knows the way to earth - the first thing she says is that she's been there (season 3 finale). (By the way, what did she mean by that??? That's never been explained.)

Somehow, she knows they are going the wrong way. And then her new viper detects her old viper and then actually does lead them to earth. It's like some kind of weird self-fulfilled prophecy...

Mike,

Thanks for those links and comments.

Personally, there is a certain level of symmetry there that is really cool. Here Starbuck has a special destiny - that she is the Harbinger of death, she will lead them to their end. She knows the way to earth - the first thing she says is that she's been there (season 3 finale). (By the way, what did she mean by that??? That's never been explained.)

....and she didn't happen to notice it was a burned out cinder?

Somehow, she knows they are going the wrong way. And then her new viper detects her old viper and then actually does lead them to earth. It's like some kind of weird self-fulfilled prophecy...

Now, that would be cool.

If I felt a need for an explanation of why there's no #7 Cylon model (which I don't :rolleyes:), I'd assume that perhaps they created a #7, but the model didn't work out and they were discontinued and destroyed. Or maybe it is a religiously significant number for them, and they skipped it on purpose, in the same way that many high-rise buildings don't have a floor numbered 13.


I'd buy those. I don't really feel like they need to explain that missing model number either.

And for those asking about what's going to be answered, I posted this before, but as a refresher, here's what Moore had to say: (http://sepinwall.blogspot.com/2009/01/battlestar-galactica-ron-moore-talks.html)

Obviously, the identity of the final Cylon, we will find this out?
Yeah.

The origin and nature of the Final Four and how they're different from the rest of them?
Yes.

The origin of the rest of the skinjobs?
Yes.

What happened to Earth and what happened to the 13th Colony?
Yes.

Who, if anyone, is orchestrating all of this?
Basically, yeah. I don't know if it's going to be wrapped up in a neat bow. The show has an answer for it, whether it's a satisfying answer, I don't know.

Will "All this has happened before and it will happen again" be explained in some way?
Yes.

The opera house?
Yes.

What happened to Kara when she went through the Malestrom?
Pretty much.

Identity and nature of the "head" characters?
Yes.

Tigh and Six's baby, and whether that means Cylons can breed?
Yes. That's not a "yes" to whether they can breed -- the question will be answered.

The fate of Boomer and whether there are other 1's, 4's and 5's floating out there?
Yes.

Roslin's health?
Yes.

Answering those questions would make me pretty content. And they've already started doing so.

What happened to Kara when she went through the Malestrom?
Pretty much.


wonder why every answer is a flat yes....except this.

Anyone remember the name of the episode, were Boomer is back on Caprica, it was after resurrecting, and she lives in a flat listening to some crazy Cylon top 40 music.

Starbuck looked pretty good on Nip/Tuck tonight...

Starbuck looked pretty good on Nip/Tuck tonight...

Thanks for mentioning that, Lax -- it reminded me to watch the midnight replay... I keep forgetting there's a new season on -- not even sure how many eps I've missed so far.

By the way, how many of you have Direct-TV and what's your Sci-Fi HD like on it? From what I can see, Sci-Fi isn't available in HD on DISH Network and Charter simply REFUSES to even give me a HINT of when they might carry Sci-Fi in HD, even though they had NO PROBLEM raising my TV rates by almost $20 this month!

I'm now at $128 a month just for the TV part (and that's with "3-way bundling" and WITHOUT any sports packages or Spanish language packages and NO PPV charges -- 2 HD boxes is all, and all the premium channels). From what I can see at the Direct-TV site, even AFTER my first-year discount wears off, with their BIGGEST package -- getting everything I am now, PLUS all the sports I don't care about AND HD on ALL the HBO and Showtime, etc (with Charter I just get it on ONE HBO and ONE Showtime, One Cinemax, One Starz HDNet and that's it)., I'd STILL come out about $20 less than where Charter has now put me -- with about 50 more HD channels! Sorry, I know this is off-topic, but I'm fed up, folks... If those of you who get Sci-Fi in HD on Direct-TV know of ANY reason I should NOT switch, please tell me. Feel free to PM me or email me to keep it out of the thread, if you prefer.
Jeff

Why do I have the feeling that Austin Time Warner Cable will finally pull their head out and give us Sci-Fi HD just *after* the final episode of BSG? At which point I will have no use for the channel, given the other dreck that's on it. Don't most Time Warner cities have Sci-Fi HD now?

Anyone remember the name of the episode, were Boomer is back on Caprica, it was after resurrecting, and she lives in a flat listening to some crazy Cylon top 40 music."Downloaded", Season 2, Episode 18.

By the way, how many of you have Direct-TV and what's your Sci-Fi HD like on it? From what I can see, Sci-Fi isn't available in HD on DISH Network ...snip
Jeff

Dish has SciFi in HD and has for a while. That was one of the main reasons I switched from local cable to Dish Satellite.

My random thoughts in no particular order, after catching up on the thread.

1) Thanks to all of you who chimed in on my request for speculation on the cost of the BSG BD complete set.

2) I am not convinced that both Zarek and Gaeta are dead. I think it is probable, but not definite. This show has led me astray too many times already. I have learned not to assume too much about what they don't show. Even when they showed Adama being shot via firing squad, that was a dream sequence, which was very well done. It could be that Adama ordered the firing squad to only shoot one of them.

3) Zarek and Gaita are only traitors because they lost. If they won, they would be heroes. I like how they covered the "History is written by the winners" issue. I think it was Zarak that said something to the effect of "Right and wrong is determined by whoever is left standing."

4) I think the aftermath of the killing of the Quarum was rather "clean" for a cablenet show. In reality, that would have been a much bloodier room. I just knew that guy that stood up and called Zarek the VP was going to get a bullet. I did not think it would be so soon.

5) It sure seems to me like a lot of people are getting killed off quickly this season. What is this, the new 24? I can't help but think we will see some of them again somehow. But admittedly, this is a wild guess on my part.

6) I think it is interesting that the Fifth was Ellen Tigh, and she did not even show up in the top ten of the survey we took on this sight about a year ago. They just love to do the unexpected on this show. That is why I don't think they will go with the time travel reasoning (or worm holes for that matter) for the Kara Thrace new viper issue. Perhaps black holes or string theory, but not time travel. They may not have this one tied up as neatly as the other issues. I guess that is why RDMs response to the inquiry on this one was less than a flat-out "Yes."

Jeff,

I have D* and I like it. The SCI-FI HD channel looks fine, but probably not as good as a BD (which I don't have, just guessing here). My bill is $56/mo with two HD PVRs and no premium channels (unless I call and ask for them free, which I sometime do). I have a $10/mo discount for a year going on still, so my normal bill would be $66. I think they are raising rates in march, so I expect to go up by $2 to $4. Good luck.

By the way, how many of you have Direct-TV and what's your Sci-Fi HD like on it? From what I can see, Sci-Fi isn't available in HD on DISH Network and Charter simply REFUSES to even give me a HINT of when they might carry Sci-Fi in HD, even though they had NO PROBLEM raising my TV rates by almost $20 this month!


Jeff

Sci-Fi on DirecTV is pretty much limited only by the material itself in my opinion. Much of the non-CGI shots from Stargate:Atlantis were absolutely stunning, some of the best HD I've seen. BSG, on the other hand, is generally a "dirty/noisy" looking image to begin with so it's not a show I would judge the picture quality of SciFi-HD on, although some of the closer in shots have been very good.

For many of the cable carriers, those that get some of their HD channels from HITS anyway, SciFi-HD is a 3-pak compressed channel and there were quite a few complaints about image quality, pixelation primarily, something I've never seen from the DirecTV feed. That condition may have improved though of late.

Jeff,

I have D* and I like it. The SCI-FI HD channel looks fine, but probably not as good as a BD (which I don't have, just guessing here). My bill is $56/mo with two HD PVRs and no premium channels (unless I call and ask for them free, which I sometime do). I have a $10/mo discount for a year going on still, so my normal bill would be $66. I think they are raising rates in march, so I expect to go up by $2 to $4. Good luck.

Given like material, no cable or broadcast channel is going to look as good as BD, it can't as they simply don't have the capacity that BD has. BD is the undisputed leader in image and sound quality, TV is a somewhat distant second place.

Sci-Fi on DirecTV is pretty much limited only by the material itself in my opinion. Much of the non-CGI shots from Stargate:Atlantis were absolutely stunning, some of the best HD I've seen. BSG, on the other hand, is generally a "dirty/noisy" looking image to begin with so it's not a show I would judge the picture quality of SciFi-HD on, although some of the closer in shots have been very good.


Agree with the "noisy/grainy" picture for interior shots, which is a director's choice and part of the show's visual template. But the vfx/cgi scenes are crystal clear and stunning, even more so in HD. Sometimes I just freeze-frame and stare in gap-jawed wonder at some of that stuff their art department and special effects wizards come up with.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's incredible what they're able to do on a basic cablenet budget. Although I'm sure it's relatively high by cablenet standards. Anybody know what Sci-Fi shells out, on average, for a weekly ep of BSG?

They're definitely straining the budget, thats why we get so few space battles and space shots in general. Did you see the CG person in the last ep, it was when the presidents ship was landing in Galactica, it was pretty bad CG, however I pass on it, since the story and acting is so good, I'm gonna miss this show when its all done.

2) I am not convinced that both Zarek and Gaeta are dead...

3) Zarek and Gaita are only traitors because they lost. If they won, they would be heroes.


2) I'd be very surprised if either one of them lived. That would be a very Heroes-like "Look whose dead...surprise they're not!" cheapo audience manipulation.

3) Yes, this ties into why I am conflicted about Zarek killing off the Quorum. Until that point, the mutineers could at least claim some moral justification. They lost that justification when Zarek, who likes to prattle on about the dangers of how close the fleet is to a military dictatorship under Adama, essentially appointed himself dictator...or tried to, anyway.

The Quorum was against having the Cylon technology forcibly installed in the fleet, which was the motivation for the mutiny in the first place. I don't think the "winners" could just wash away what they had done so easily. Unless it was Zarek's plan to frame the killings on Adama's forces.

I have been watching the first showing from DirectvHD in my HT room 73" screen Mitsubitsi HC1500U then moving to the Bedroom and watching from DishHD 99" screen Mitsubitsi HD1000U... very little if any difference between the 2 carriers on ScifiHD and as stated the grain is intentional, I have the S1 HD DVD set...