They're definitely straining the budget, thats why we get so few space battles and space shots in general. Did you see the CG person in the last ep, it was when the presidents ship was landing in Galactica, it was pretty bad CG, however I pass on it, since the story and acting is so good, I'm gonna miss this show when its all done.

I did notice that and thought the same thing you did. They inserted it to provide a sense of scale for Colonial 1. Getting people to walk believably is one of the hardest things to do in cgi and even the best vfx houses don't get it exactly right most of the time. It's not something they try very often on this show and I'd bet my lunch money they weren't happy with how that shot turned out.

3) Yes, this ties into why I am conflicted about Zarek killing off the Quorum. Until that point, the mutineers could at least claim some moral justification. They lost that justification when Zarek, who likes to prattle on about the dangers of how close the fleet is to a military dictatorship under Adama, essentially appointed himself dictator...or tried to, anyway.

The Quorum was against having the Cylon technology forcibly installed in the fleet, which was the motivation for the mutiny in the first place. I don't think the "winners" could just wash away what they had done so easily. Unless it was Zarek's plan to frame the killings on Adama's forces.

I believe Zarek's thinking was twofold: If the Cylon tech was installed, his dream of taking control would officially end. And the Cylons, which he really did completely hate and distrust, would be so entrenched they'd never get 'em out. So, he had motivation both for personal power and he thought he was following the right, indeed the only course of action that would save humanity. In that light, he rationalized that the most extreme action was justified. I thought Richard Hatch did a great job of conveying the difficulty Zarak had with that decision. That was a complicated role and I thought he really pulled it off from his first scene as an imprisoned terrorist leader all the way up to that last, rueful smile to his fellow failed conspirator.

It seemed to me that Zarek had already decided killing the Quorum was an acceptable action ahead of time, depending on how things went. I don't think this is an incongruous or out-of-character decision for Zarek, but I'm still curious on how he'd justify the Quorum slaughter with the fleet if his coup was successful.

(Gaeta obviously had no foreknowledge of Zarek's plan, and I doubt he would have carried through with the mutiny if he had known. Zarek expertly used Gaeta in this regard...Gaeta thought his cause was just but really he was ushering Zarek to power.)

2) I'd be very surprised if either one of them lived. That would be a very Heroes-like "Look whose dead...surprise they're not!" cheapo audience manipulation.

3) Yes, this ties into why I am conflicted about Zarek killing off the Quorum. Until that point, the mutineers could at least claim some moral justification. They lost that justification when Zarek, who likes to prattle on about the dangers of how close the fleet is to a military dictatorship under Adama, essentially appointed himself dictator...or tried to, anyway.

The Quorum was against having the Cylon technology forcibly installed in the fleet, which was the motivation for the mutiny in the first place. I don't think the "winners" could just wash away what they had done so easily. Unless it was Zarek's plan to frame the killings on Adama's forces.

2) I don't watch the show Heroes, but I do believe you. I wonder how hard the various writer teams try to avoid what has been done on other shows. It seems like they must make some effort, but it relies on them spending some time watching the other shows.

3) I think one of the goals of the BSG show creators and writers is to make us conflicted. It calls for introspection, and that is a good thing.

One more thought. I thought that the damage which Chief Tyrol saw at the end of the episode was damage to the FTL drive, not to the hull. I assumed it was caused when he caused the shutdown of the FTL drive when it was spun-up, by pulling out that part (after having been denied computer access). I figured maybe the part he pulled out was some sort of "overspin limiter" that protected the FTL drive, and he removed that protection to take it offline, to keep the ship from jumping. Obviously, all of this is pure speculation on my part.

2) I don't watch the show Heroes, but I do believe you. I wonder how hard the various writer teams try to avoid what has been done on other shows. It seems like they must make some effort, but it relies on them spending some time watching the other shows.

It is a completely overused move on Heroes. I think they "killed" like 5 characters in the span of 2 episodes during the fall, and all of them were revealed to be not-so-surprisingly alive after the commercial or in the opening of the subsequent episode. :rolleyes:

It wouldn't be as eyerolling if it happened here with Zarek or Gaeta, just because BSG doesn't pull that trick so frequently. But still pretty weak, IMO.

3) I think one of the goals of the BSG show creators and writers is to make us conflicted. It calls for introspection, and that is a good thing.

Yeah, I was really scratching my head when it first happened, but as I mulled over it I decided it was a pretty interesting decision.

One more thought. I thought that the damage which Chief Tyrol saw at the end of the episode was damage to the FTL drive, not to the hull. I assumed it was caused when he caused the shutdown of the FTL drive when it was spun-up, by pulling out that part (after having been denied computer access). I figured maybe the part he pulled out was some sort of "overspin limiter" that protected the FTL drive, and he removed that protection to take it offline, to keep the ship from jumping. Obviously, all of this is pure speculation on my part.

You could be right - I dunno. My thinking was that it simply metal fatigue indicating the ship does not have much time left. Galactica is simply coming apart. Well, we know we're getting to an endgame here. We know, or at least think we know, that their flight from the holocaust and pursuit from the cylons will be ending soon. It would be fitting for the Galactica to "die" in that final episode. (Unfortunately, and perhaps a little cliche, it usually is also fitting for the captain (or admiral as the case may be) to go down with his ship...

From a dramatic standpoint, characters rarely do not die once they accept their fate. Tom had that little smile, while Gaeta's leg stopped itching. These are both "final" moments that dramatically tell me that both are goners.

wonder why every answer is a flat yes....except this.


Well we already have what; the question should have been been phrased "how and why Kara's back."

Who knows if we'll get those answers.

My random thoughts in no particular order, after catching up on the thread.


2) I am not convinced that both Zarek and Gaeta are dead. I think it is probable, but not definite. This show has led me astray too many times already. I have learned not to assume too much about what they don't show. Even when they showed Adama being shot via firing squad, that was a dream sequence, which was very well done. It could be that Adama ordered the firing squad to only shoot one of them.

3) Zarek and Gaita are only traitors because they lost. If they won, they would be heroes.



They're dead. What could possibly be the reason? Bringing one to the others funeral in the airlock makes little sense.

And they're traitors because of treason, not because they lost. The quorum, powered down ships, and galattica's own crew showed you there was little push in the fleet for what they tried doing. The public was unhappy the way things had turned out, but they were still vested in their politics and leaders. Zarack underestimated big time. For them to be hero's, they would have had to act on the majority's wishes. You don't win favor acting against the people's will.

If I felt a need for an explanation of why there's no #7 Cylon model (which I don't :rolleyes:), I'd assume that perhaps they created a #7, but the model didn't work out and they were discontinued and destroyed. Or maybe it is a religiously significant number for them, and they skipped it on purpose, in the same way that many high-rise buildings don't have a floor numbered 13.

Let's call "religiously siginificant" the official retcon for that.

I don't advocate retconning, but too many people who watch sci-fi think everything should be answered, so if they must be appeased, then that answer works.

Personally, I'm comfortable with "the writers don't care". Unless we're proposing some sort of infallibility of the writers, but I'm not a big fan of retconning reality.

but I'm not a big fan of retconning reality.

I'm not a fan of reconning reality either.

I'm all for reconning reality.

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I'm not a fan of reconning reality either.

I'm all for reconning reality.

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That's too frakkin funny!

I'm not a fan of reconning reality either.

I'm all for reconning reality.

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Can someone... ANYONE??? tell me just EXACTLY WHAT "reality" IS?????

I dare, DEFY anyone to come up with a truly solid definition. "Reality" is different for not only every single person, but for every single conscious being -- dog, cat, fly, frog -- you name it... No two people or creatures experience "reality" exactly the same way. We may all (except the colorblind) agree that a certain color is blue, and that a certain shade of blue is "eggshell or sky blue", BUT as no person can EVER experience what it's like to see through the eyes of another, we have NO WAY of knowing exactly HOW each other actually SEE those colors. Although we all may AGREE they're the same color -- meaning we all see it the "same way" -- the way I see blue may be the way YOU see green, etc. In other words, although you and I both agree blue is blue and green is green, I may experience green as looking like what you experience BLUE as looking like, and VICE VERSA, but since we both AGREE they're the same color, we'll never know.

This is part of why eye-witness testimony is so difficult, and gets into just the shallowest end of the deep pool of some of the questions BSG is exploring. It's like the Kafka story about the man who dreamed he was a butterfly and when he awoke he wasn't sure if he was a man who dreamed he was a butterfly, or a butterfly who dreamed he was a man... Consider "The Matrix Trilogy," for those of you who have watched one or more of those movies (whether you liked them or not is another story). The concept is quite possible, as are many other. We could all be living "a collective dream" and never know it -- or a collective illusion.

The people in BSG may discover there's been some "collective illusion" at play with them... Who knows? There are all sorts of possible quite interesting, thought-provoking outcomes the writers could choose, and I, for one, am looking forward to any one of them, so long as the ending is satisfying and not "full of holes." It can leave "questions," but NOT unsatisfying lapses of plot.

As for writers making things up as they go along -- such as not deciding to add the Final 5 Cylons until the third season... those who feel cheated by such things and think there should have been an "endgame plan" from the start -- have you ever considered the genesis of the term "creative process?" A HUGE PART of creative writing is often SUBCONSCIOUS. A fiction writer -- even a NONfiction writer (like myself) doesn't necessarily start out with all the pieces in place, but with a "general idea" (although the Subconscious mind may have a game plan -- or several possible ones -- of which the conscious isn't aware)... As the series develops, as RDM said, "if I've done my job right," pieces fall into place where they can add new things that fit, that they never really thought of or anticipated before... They WERE likely there, somewhere in the subconsious all along... part of that "great illusion... that dream reality."
Jeff

I did notice that and thought the same thing you did. They inserted it to provide a sense of scale for Colonial 1. Getting people to walk believably is one of the hardest things to do in cgi and even the best vfx houses don't get it exactly right most of the time. It's not something they try very often on this show and I'd bet my lunch money they weren't happy with how that shot turned out.

The weird (or not so weird really) part about that was that even though the person looked pretty assy, the rest of the shot was gorgeous. But like you said, they don't do people very often...thankfully.

.

And they're traitors because of treason, not because they lost. The quorum, powered down ships, and galattica's own crew showed you there was little push in the fleet for what they tried doing. The public was unhappy the way things had turned out, but they were still vested in their politics and leaders. Zarack underestimated big time. For them to be hero's, they would have had to act on the majority's wishes. You don't win favor acting against the people's will.
well said

On that issue of Zarek having the entire Quorum shot, I really believe had the mutiny been successful, he would have very convincingly told the lie that he FOUND the Quorum like that just BEFORE he and Gaeta took over, that Adama had ordered they all be shot because they refused to go along with his orders to change their vote on allowing individual ship captains to block access to Cylons and Cylon technology -- and that once he saw THAT -- and what a BUTCHER and determined barbarian and "traitor to the Cylons" Adama really was, he and Gaeta felt they had no choice but to take control.

I truly believe that story could have been sold, and sold effectively, had the mutiny been successful... Similar lies have been told and sold throughout history.
Jeff

Re...recent threads above...

Zarek was a revolutionary in his mind. One poster said he border line tried to become the dictator he accused Adama of being...most often dictators are replaced by dictators...that were once revolutionaries and yes the victors get to write the history. He killed the quorum for two simple reasons, they were in his way and to use the story of their massacre when he needed/suited him. As to whether Zarek and Gaeta are dead...they are.

As to the "stress fracture" the Grand Old lady's days are numbered, I don't think she will see the end of the show and maybe sooner that we think or want, but you can be sure she will go out in a blaze of glory.

Kara has some huge act left...maybe being part of Gallatica's demise or the demise of the Bad Cylons...or ...maybe her and Ellen have the worlds greatest/most important/most bad ass cat fight ever...for the future of cylon/humanity and I still guess that after the final cataclysm there will be only 12/13 scattered vessels / tribes to carry on.

Can't wait till Friday (well probably won't see it till Saturday)

Very reasonable explanation Jeff & bvader. Nice posts.

Can someone... ANYONE??? tell me just EXACTLY WHAT "reality" IS?????

Reality is that sore feeling you get every time you decide you're smarter and more badass than your circumstance.

[QUOTE=JeffAHayes;15798416]Can someone... ANYONE??? tell me just EXACTLY WHAT "reality" IS?????

Reality is perception.

Watch the movie "The Thirteenth Floor"and tell me are we real or are we ones and zeros?

If I felt a need for an explanation of why there's no #7 Cylon model (

Starbuck is the model #7;)

Starbuck is the model #7;)

Ol' lucky number seven, Starbuck. Doesn't really sound right, does it?

I finally figured out what happened to the model #7!!

You see, they were prepping the 7s in the goo bath, but a paper jam occurred. The system recorded the series #7 as made. The Cylons had to do a second run of 7s, but the counter ticked up to 8. No one knew how to reset the counter, so they just let the problem go and decided to call the 7s as 8s instead, because it was easier than correcting the clerical error.

See?

The entire numbering problem is caused by a lazy Cylon office culture. It was Friday around 1 am. Everyone at the goobathatorium just wanted to make their quota so the Imperious Leader would let them go home a half hour early (it takes about four hours to print off a run of Cylons). Roll of a line of 7s, call them 8s, fill out your time sheets, get in the car, pick up some steaks from the store for the cookout Saturday...

[QUOTE=JeffAHayes;15798416]Can someone... ANYONE??? tell me just EXACTLY WHAT "reality" IS?????

Reality is perception.

Watch the movie "The Thirteenth Floor"and tell me are we real or are we ones and zeros?

"The Thirteenth Floor" is another example, Don... real shock to that scientist when he discovered what the note was REALLY about, huh?

So many ways one can look at it -- even the light, humorous ones, such as "Men in Black," where aliens playing marbles are using actual universes as the marbles, and we have other whole universes stowed away inside things like gym lockers... THAT was a bit far-fetched, of course, but truly, just about anything we can imagine is possible... We've barely scratched the surface of what there is to know, and like the universe, itself, knowledge seems to be like a balloon... the more you know, the more you know there is to know.

Back to the show: It's entirely possible that now that Adama and Roslyn are back in power, "the people" may NOT believe that Zarek had the Quorum shot, if that plot point is played (that part of the story might not even come up again). If so, it could be an issue in continued resistance. If they do believe Zarek was behind it (for instance if the actual soldiers who did the shooting admit it), it could well help them win the war for Cylon conversions... Or they could just declare martial law and sidestep the whole issue of "civility." With only 6 episodes remaining, something has to happen fast.
Jeff

[QUOTE=Don H;15808062]

Back to the show: It's entirely possible that now that Adama and Roslyn are back in power, "the people" may NOT believe that Zarek had the Quorum shot, if that plot point is played (that part of the story might not even come up again). If so, it could be an issue in continued resistance. If they do believe Zarek was behind it (for instance if the actual soldiers who did the shooting admit it), it could well help them win the war for Cylon conversions... Or they could just declare martial law and sidestep the whole issue of "civility." With only 6 episodes remaining, something has to happen fast.
Jeff

There’s still some lingering things they might hit on with the coup, but I think they pretty much closed this plot arch and are ready to move on with the last episodic arch (Ellen’s return and what it means) and finish up the series..

Most of the fleet didn’t support the Coup, they killed off the nagging politicians (which servers both to give Adama and Roslin more political freedom in the last episodes, and to rally the fleet around them again after Roslin’s disappearance and Adama’s truce), and they killed off Zarack which needed to be done.

Sure there’s still the issue of those who supported the Coup in the fleet and on Galatica; but I’m thinking we’re to understand that it was “taken care of” and it won’t be harped on anymore with more pressing matters and the series winding down. And I’m fine by that.

Watch the movie "The Thirteenth Floor"and tell me are we real or are we ones and zeros?

u know thats trouble from the get-go because as mike & mike said today 80% of buildings dont even have a 13th floor.

Sure there’s still the issue of those who supported the Coup in the fleet and on Galatica; but I’m thinking we’re to understand that it was “taken care of” and it won’t be harped on anymore with more pressing matters and the series winding down. And I’m fine by that.

There still has to be a purge because that's what militaries do when there's a mutiny. Seems that most of the mutineers may have been holdovers from the Pegasus. I'm wondering what they'll do with people like Racetrack and Hotdog - folks that didn't actually kill anybody but still threw their lot in with the losing side. We've known them and grown to like them over the years. One more way Moore and Co. are going to frak with our emotions, the bastards. :p (Hey, I didn't know the AVS software would print that word! Carlin would be proud.)

^ I don't see how they can be given a pass. Mutiny is mutiny.

^ I don't see how they can be given a pass. Mutiny is mutiny.

Exigent circumstances. Depending on the number of coup participants, purging them (as in shooting or airlocking) might render the Galactica incapable (or almost so) of defending the fleet from the forces of Cavil. And, depending upon the number of crew who stayed outwardly neutral but who were inwardly sympathetic to the coup plotters, severe measures against the average crewman might undemine morale too much.

Adama might well remember his conflict with Caine who, had she had the upper hand, might well have tried Adama for mutiny. The power struggle between Adama and Roslin led to some measures being taken that bordered on mutiny/treason and there were no purges afterwards.

In our world just look to Venezuela. The current president tried to take power by a coup in the 1990s. He failed but survived execution (for whatever reasons the civilian government had at the time). Then, after he was elected president he was almost overthrown by a coup. There were no mass executions afterward. Coups are tricky things because the plotters are seldom certain they have as much support as they need. Counter-coups are equally tricky because the counter-coup forces also don't know how much support the coup has and don't always want to push their luck and spark a second coup attempt through excessive punishment.

Another half dozen executions might be enough pour descourager les autres.

So Friday question of the day: which are you watching, Dollhouse or BSG? (Or are you DVRing them both and watching them hungover on Saturday morning?)

On the west coast, watching both is easy since they are on at different times. :)

So Friday question of the day: which are you watching, Dollhouse or BSG? (Or are you DVRing them both and watching them hungover on Saturday morning?)

BSG would take precedence over The Rapture. :p But in reality it's not a big deal since the two shows don't occupy the same time period. With T:SCC, Dollhouse, and BSG airing consecutively, even the technologically handicapped geek (is there such a thing?) can gorge on a 3-hour block of sci-fi television nirvana on Friday nights. :)

So Friday question of the day: which are you watching, Dollhouse or BSG? (Or are you DVRing them both and watching them hungover on Saturday morning?)

Dollhouse is on at 9:00 Eastern, BSG is at 10:00

There still has to be a purge because that's what militaries do when there's a mutiny. Seems that most of the mutineers may have been holdovers from the Pegasus. I'm wondering what they'll do with people like Racetrack and Hotdog - folks that didn't actually kill anybody but still threw their lot in with the losing side. We've known them and grown to like them over the years. Hotdog refused to fire on the Raptor with Rosyln in it, but Racetrack and Narcho along with many of the Marines and the Civilians involved should be held accoutable...

So Friday question of the day: which are you watching, Dollhouse or BSG? (Or are you DVRing them both and watching them hungover on Saturday morning?)Not a problem for us west coast people with Sci Fi HD, which only has an east coast feed. For us, BSG is on before primetime :).

Hotdog refused to fire on the Raptor with Rosyln in it, but Racetrack and Narcho along with many of the Marines and the Civilians involved should be held accoutable...

What, Hotdog gets a pass because he didn't fire? He still threw in with the mutineers, and as such will have to be held accountable. But the fact that he's the father of Callie's kid will also earn him some mercy points, I suspect.

Hotdog was flying CAP , I suspect he knew nothing about the mutiny as the CAP Vipers should be on different frequency's than the rest of the fleet...

Hotdog was flying CAP , I suspect he knew nothing about the mutiny as the CAP Vipers should be on different frequency's than the rest of the fleet...

That's how I took it, he was on CAP while things went down on Galatica, and during the communications blackout.

Hot Dog was just going about his assigned duties, that's not participating in a mutiny. Take the private that's all alone cleaning pots in the kitchen. Maybe he does hear something about the mutiny, but he keep scrubbing - is he a mutineer? Now, of course as an officer, and a pilot, maybe he's expected to take certain actions during a mutiny, but I wouldn't exactly call him one of the traitors.

eta - good points above, he had no clue about the president until he heard her broadcast, so he may have known absolutely zero about anything happening on Galactica.

Exigent circumstances. Depending on the number of coup participants, purging them (as in shooting or airlocking) might render the Galactica incapable (or almost so) of defending the fleet from the forces of Cavil. And, depending upon the number of crew who stayed outwardly neutral but who were inwardly sympathetic to the coup plotters, severe measures against the average crewman might undemine morale too much.

Adama might well remember his conflict with Caine who, had she had the upper hand, might well have tried Adama for mutiny. The power struggle between Adama and Roslin led to some measures being taken that bordered on mutiny/treason and there were no purges afterwards.

In our world just look to Venezuela. The current president tried to take power by a coup in the 1990s. He failed but survived execution (for whatever reasons the civilian government had at the time). Then, after he was elected president he was almost overthrown by a coup. There were no mass executions afterward. Coups are tricky things because the plotters are seldom certain they have as much support as they need. Counter-coups are equally tricky because the counter-coup forces also don't know how much support the coup has and don't always want to push their luck and spark a second coup attempt through excessive punishment.

Another half dozen executions might be enough pour descourager les autres.

Not to mention that there aren't that many people left, so killing them off should be the absolute last measure. So perhaps they drew a line, Gaeta and Zarek, the leaders pay the price, but the rest are given a bit of a pass because of the dire circumstances of the remaining numbers of people? Just a thought. And if this was the reason, I would be ok with it. Even if they don't state a reason why others are not "purged" either this theory, or the one above, would be ok.

RE the aftermath of the mutiny, there's something known as a general amnesty which is often given in this sort of circumstance -- particularly where you need EVERY WARM BODY. My thinking is that Adama and/or Roslyn announce to the fleet what happened, say the leaders have been "dealt with," and offer anyone else who participated in the mutiny but who is willing to swear allegiance to the government and follow orders WITHOUT QUESTION a general amnesty, with the option of immediate imprisonment or execution. I think most or all would quickly fall in line.
Jeff

...now lets get to the breeding! (is that program still in effect?) Seems like Baltar is the only human putting that program to vigorous use. :p

...now lets get to the breeding! (is that program still in effect?) Seems like Baltar is the only human putting that program to vigorous use. :p

Hey, I volunteer to be first in line to help the 6s and 8s with their breeding program -- after all our current Earth is WAY overbred, so we don't need any more breeding here... I'd be more than happy to go help 6 and 8! :p:D:cool:

BSG would take precedence over The Rapture. :p But in reality it's not a big deal since the two shows don't occupy the same time period. With T:SCC, Dollhouse, and BSG airing consecutively, even the technologically handicapped geek (is there such a thing?) can gorge on a 3-hour block of sci-fi television nirvana on Friday nights. :)

I record everything as a matter of course on the two DVRs, so schedule conflicts are rarely a problem. However, come 10:30 tonight, BSG is what I'll be watching.

Not to mention that there aren't that many people left, so killing them off should be the absolute last measure. So perhaps they drew a line, Gaeta and Zarek, the leaders pay the price, but the rest are given a bit of a pass because of the dire circumstances of the remaining numbers of people? Just a thought. And if this was the reason, I would be ok with it. Even if they don't state a reason why others are not "purged" either this theory, or the one above, would be ok.

I don't know. Adama doesn't seem like the "forgive and forget" type when it comes to mutiny. That's just too personal a rejection. The expression on his face during several scenes made me think he was ready to pull people's arms out and beat them to death with them.

Perhaps he will re-consider.

I don't know. Adama doesn't seem like the "forgive and forget" type when it comes to mutiny. That's just too personal a rejection. The expression on his face during several scenes made me think he was ready to pull people's arms out and beat them to death with them.

Perhaps he will re-consider.

That's very Schwarzenegger-esque. I remember Schwarzenegger saying that he wanted to that in one of his early movies, but they wouldn't let him put it in because the felt it was too gory. But then I think he had that in one of his later movies, but I can't remember which one.

Not to mention that there aren't that many people left, so killing them off should be the absolute last measure. So perhaps they drew a line, Gaeta and Zarek, the leaders pay the price, but the rest are given a bit of a pass because of the dire circumstances of the remaining numbers of people? Just a thought. And if this was the reason, I would be ok with it. Even if they don't state a reason why others are not "purged" either this theory, or the one above, would be ok.

One of the highlights of the show, at least as far as Jamie Bamber is concerned, was when he was testifying at Baltar's trial and made that exact argument. (He did that whole speech on the first take, too. The production team and all the other actors gave him a "standing O" :p) They've all gotten a free pass at one time or another. I just think that this mutiny, and how close Adama got to being executed, is going to produce a different reaction.

I've always LOVED that saying "I'll rip your arm off and beat you to death with it!" Haven't actually SEEN it very often, though... maybe a time or two, but I can't recall exactly where -- really LOVED what they did with the missing part of Rose McGowan's leg in "Planet Terror," though! :D

I think REGARDLESS of how Adama FEELS, however, he's going to have to be a pragmatist... The original almost-50,000 survivors was down to some 37,000 BEFORE the mutiny... If the survivors are to have any hope of re-starting humankind, they need a viable gene pool, which means every "warm body" is needed not only to run ships and fight possible battles, but also to reproduce.
Jeff

I've always LOVED that saying "I'll rip your arm off and beat you to death with it!" Haven't actually SEEN it very often, though... maybe a time or two, but I can't recall exactly where -- really LOVED what they did with the missing part of Rose McGowan's leg in "Planet Terror," though! :D

I think REGARDLESS of how Adama FEELS, however, he's going to have to be a pragmatist... The original almost-50,000 survivors was down to some 37,000 BEFORE the mutiny... If the survivors are to have any hope of re-starting humankind, they need a viable gene pool, which means every "warm body" is needed not only to run ships and fight possible battles, but also to reproduce.
Jeff

....as for the gene pool, there are all of those #6 and #8s that could be pressed into service if necessary. ;)

Not a problem for us west coast people with Sci Fi HD, which only has an east coast feed. For us, BSG is on before primetime :).

Indeed.

BSG: 7 pm
SCC: 8 pm
Dollhouse: 9 pm

Although reviews for Dollhouse have not been pretty.

Something I noticed while I'm on my re-watch of the series. During the first mutiny/coup, the people who helped Roslin escape included Zarek, Racetrack, and even Gaeta (who knew about it, but kept quiet). And Hot Dog was willing to shoot down the President back then.

Oh how times have changed. :p

One of the highlights of the show, at least as far as Jamie Bamber is concerned, was when he was testifying at Baltar's trial and made that exact argument. (He did that whole speech on the first take, too. The production team and all the other actors gave him a "standing O" :p) They've all gotten a free pass at one time or another. I just think that this mutiny, and how close Adama got to being executed, is going to produce a different reaction.

I'm going with that.

Considering that one of the supposed justifications for the mutiny was the proposal to allow Cylons on ships to upgrade FTL drives, --- let alone integrate them into citizenship with the Colonials---I don't see how those who were philosophically opposed to that would suddenly do an about face now that the first mutiny failed.

Sabotage is worse than outright mutiny. I think Adama understands that---even if that means eliminating some of his remaining forces. I mean, seriously, once you've disarmed mutineers who have pointed guns at you---do you then say, "Ok fellas, here are the guns back. No more pointing them at me, right?"

Sabotage is worse than outright mutiny. I think Adama understands that---even if that means eliminating some of his remaining forces. I mean, seriously, once you've disarmed mutineers who have pointed guns at you---do you then say, "Ok fellas, here are the guns back. No more pointing them at me, right?"

Yeah, I think the gene pool is just going to have to take one for the team on this one. Assuming most of the soon-to-be-executed mutineers were men, that just improves the odds for the remaining loyalists. :p

Holy new intro...

Not as intense as the past 2 episodes,but lots of historical info in this one.

I need to rewatch this one immediately. Info overload! Whoa.

This show is to good for sci-fri. Who's got the bigger bald head Anders or Roslin? I am going to catch this one again at midnight just to figure out what Anders was saying.

I need to rewatch this one immediately. Info overload! Whoa.

Same here. But still, WOW Guess we now know that Daniel was number 7. ....and John is mostly the one responsible for all this trouble. Should have boxed his line. .....and yeah for Boomer!!!

Well now we know. The Colonials are PC, the Cylons are Mac.

Oh, wow. Just.... wow. I have to watch it again at midnight. Too many who did what when. Not to mention Daniel and .... John :cool:

Is Daniel a known character from the past or is this someone we have never seen before?

I don't believe we've seen Daniel.

Doesn't this parallel Cane and Able?

Is Daniel a known character from the past or is this someone we have never seen before?

I believe this is the first time we heard the name.

So much for thinking the writers couldn't count (or they read this forum and realized some of us really needed to know what happened to "7" :D).

Well now we know. The Colonials are PC, the Cylons are Mac.

Too funny.

I kept looking at the guy wondering why he looked so familiar, then I finally realized who he was. What a hoot.

Too funny.

I kept looking at the guy wondering why he looked so familiar, then I finally realized who he was. What a hoot.

What's even funnier is that we watched, with the kids prior to BSG, Herbie Fully Loaded, which had the Mac guy, then put the kids to bed, turned on BSG and lo and behold, there's the PC guy.

Anyone think Baltar or Adama is the 7th Cylon "Daniel" model?

That was another great episode. alot of answers and of course a few new questions.

We need a 5th season or a whole new series to continue this show.

Good to see Galin back as chief.

I believe this is the first time we heard the name.

So much for thinking the writers couldn't count (or they read this forum and realized some of us really needed to know what happened to "7" :D).I think that the latter is true (not specifically people in this forum, but observant fans, in general). RDM admitted that they made up the whole "Final Five" idea during the third season--the reason given for the destruction of the "Daniel" model as detailed in this episode depends on it. Of course, they could have always intended for model #7 to have been missing, just for some other reason.

Lots and lots of answers tonight! You know there is a lot in a show when the secondary elements include things like: Rosalyn is done being president, the fleet is re-doing it's state of representative government, the ship is falling apart, etc. You know, small things like that :) . Just a tremendous sprint to the finish so far this season. Great, great storytelling, and finally now some answers!

Zowee, my head is spinning! When they reveal stuff in this show, it is like trying to drink from a firehose. ...or maybe RDM is just having fun at our expense? Maybe some of it is true, and some not? Clobber the viewer with all of it at once, and they won't even begin to know which is which (even though he literally laid out the true elements in plain sight).

I loved that speech by Cavil about being stuck in a frail organic body.

Lots and lots of answers tonight! You know there is a lot in a show when the secondary elements include things like: Rosalyn is done being president, the fleet is re-doing it's state of representative government, the ship is falling apart, etc. You know, small things like that :) . Just a tremendous sprint to the finish so far this season. Great, great storytelling, and finally now some answers!

So - am I understanding this right?

A few several thousand years ago, the 13th tribe (of cylons) have a falling out with the other 12, the 13th tribe leaves Kobol to find earth. Later, 2000 years ago, the cylons get annihalated on earth (from humans who tracked them down?) Knowing that that holocaust was about to happen (they were tipped off), the final five resurrect resurrection technology, which had been forgotten, because these old skinjobs had been able to reproduce for a while (which doesn't necessarily make sense - wouldn't they want still want to resurrect? They couldn't prevent accidents from occuring during that time, so they wouldn't have forgotten resurrection?)

So the final five place a resurrection hub in space, the holocaust occurs and the final five get downloaded into new bodies, then go off to find the 12 colonies, in order to warn them not to make artificial intelligence. They are too late, and the humans in the 12 colonies are already at war with Centaurians and are working on skinjobs. So they make the centaurians stop the war with the humans and the final five help them make the 8 models (7, actually.)

Cavil is full of vengeance and pulls off his own coup against the final five (suffocating them), boxes them for a while, then downloads them into new bodies, replaces their memories and seeds them on earth to suffer as human beings. Somehow, they all survive the holocaust and end up on Galactica (seems pretty improbable, although it is possible they have heightened survival instincts).

But what about the Temple of Hope (Final Five)? On their way to earth, the 13 tribe stops to pray, and are led to earth by "God", so they build the temple. From earth to the Colonies (which take thousands of years because they don't have FTL drives), the final five stop by and turn it into the Temple of the Five (And Ellen puts the little mechanism that allows Deanna to see their faces - leading Cavil to box the Deannas).

By the way, why did the 12 tribes leave Kobol to begin with and set up the new colonies?

And apparently there is a "colony" somewhere that has all of Ellen's "equipment."

So - am I understanding this right?

A few several thousand years ago, the 13th tribe (of cylons) have a falling out with the other 12, the 13th tribe leaves Kobol to find earth. Later, 2000 years ago, the cylons get annihalated on earth (from humans who tracked them down?) Knowing that that holocaust was about to happen (they were tipped off), the final five resurrect resurrection technology, which had been forgotten, because these old skinjobs had been able to reproduce for a while (which doesn't necessarily make sense - wouldn't they want still want to resurrect? They couldn't prevent accidents from occuring during that time, so they wouldn't have forgotten resurrection?)


Actually, unless I'm completely misunderstanding, it was the centurions the skinjob Cylons created that rebelled against them on Earth.

Is Sam brain dead now? After the 2nd viewing I noticed after the surgery the brain guy says he's surprised Sam's not awake yet. Cottle says they're going to hook up an ECG to see what's going on. When we again see Starbuck, she's talking to Sam, who's still not awake, and the nurse tells her there is no activity (and the ECG monitor seems to be flatlined).

A permanent vegetative state for Sammy? I thought he was a goner at the end of last week's episode; it never crossed my mind that he would be the fount of recovered knowledge and exposition this week. The others - Tory and Tyrol and Tigh trying to get the story from Sam before it's too late parallels IMO the viewers looking for much of the same information before the series ends.

So who could this Daniel be, and will we see him somehow resurrect again? Cavil said it was a weak model. Ellen told Boomer he was an artist. Supposedly Cavil sabotaged the Daniel line and thusly it was permanently boxed. Maybe the Centurions spirited away a copy or two before Cavil's sabotage took place. Perhaps this Daniel is a character we know already, and if he is then I have several possibilities in mind: Billy, Baltar or Zak Adama.

It's like after the writers' strike we found out who the 5th Cylon was, and now there's a sixth! Maybe. They certainly don't need to go there at this late date.

So - am I understanding this right?

Not entirely, Steve (for one thing, Cavil put the Unboxed Final Five with fake memories on Caprica, not Earth -- several others, as well, but I THINK you're overthinking this a bit) -- ALSO remember that Sam had a SEVERE epidural hematoma at the time, and was also talking kind of fast, so we'll probably ALL have to watch our recordings of this a couple times to "get it all straight."

As for this episode... WOW! Especially Ellen/Helen. I now use BOTH names because when Cavil first addressed her he DID call her Helen. Then everyone else in the episode called her Ellen. And then later in the episode, so did Cavil. THAT'S a continuity error!

Now, back to a prior discussion... I REALLY wanted to RIP JOHN CAVIL'S ARMS OFF AND BEAT HIM TO DEATH WITH THEM tonight! :p Man, he is just downright EVIL! Ellen so ON with him being full of jealousy and hatred -- two VERY HUMAN emotions at the basest level. Good to see Boomer finally come to her senses and switch sides again. As I have a programming conflict at 10 (gotta watch "Numbers" -- lotsa "real science" in that show). I avoid this thread like THE PLAGUE until after viewing the midnight replay of BSG, lol. When I finally DID see all that and what happened and that "the old man" even finally came to his senses and told the chief to "do whatever it takes"... well, considering it was an episode with almost NO "action" (none if you don't count the little bit of firing at Boomer's ship before she jumped away from the Cylon base ship), this episode was KILLER!
Jeff

I need to rewatch this one immediately. Info overload! Whoa.

Definitely, too much to take in with only one viewing.

The speculation on the other forums is that Daniel is Starbuck's father. He was an "artist" and we know her father was a piano player. Starbuck painted, could've gotten that artistic thing from her dad.

If she is the first Cylon-Human hybrid, it would help explain a lot. They could use that to somehow explain her resurrection, fill in details about her destiny. It might explain how she's so darned good at everything - how she knew how to fly a Cylon raider, etc.

Interesting theory.

Actually, unless I'm completely misunderstanding, it was the centurions the skinjob Cylons created that rebelled against them on Earth.
I didn't get at all that the skinjobs created any Centurions. I got that humans create Centurions who create skinjobs, but there is a chicken-and-egg thing going on that's not entirely clear yet. The fleet didn't find any human remains on Earth. They found Centurion parts and skinjob skeletons. I'm still not sure at all about what happened there, or even who lived there at the time of the holocaust. Sam said something about the warning the five of them got, all perceived differently. Very strange stuff. Glad I wasn't drunk when I watched this episode.

The speculation on the other forums is that Daniel is Starbuck's father. He was an "artist" and we know her father was a piano player. Starbuck painted, could've gotten that artistic thing from her dad.

If she is the first Cylon-Human hybrid, it would help explain a lot. They could use that to somehow explain her resurrection, fill in details about her destiny. It might explain how she's so darned good at everything - how she knew how to fly a Cylon raider, etc.

Interesting theory.
It is. All good stuff there. And Starbuck's re-appearance does need to be explained at some point.

Anyone else get an icky feeling about the incest angle between Ellen and John?

Was Ellen aware of her Cylon nature all along? It's kind of hard to explain the Ellen-Cavil thing if she was. And even if she wasn't aware, Cavil surely was! He comlained bitterly tonight about being trapped in a human-like body, but on that couch back on New Caprica he wasn't complaining when Mommy came by to relieve his human desires, was he? And she was basically in the role of a prostitute there, trading sexual favors for something in return.

I bet if the writers had known she was going to be the 5th back in the New Caprica resistance days, they wouldn't have done the Ellen-Cavil sexual favors plotline. It strains credulity with these new developments, and I think it's just going to be one of those things we have to accept as a semi-major plot frackup.

I didn't get at all that the skinjobs created any Centurions. I got that humans create Centurions who create skinjobs, but there is a chicken-and-egg thing going on that's not entirely clear yet. The fleet didn't find any human remains on Earth. They found Centurion parts and skinjob skeletons. I'm still not sure at all about what happened there, or even who lived there at the time of the holocaust. Sam said something about the warning the five of them got, all perceived differently. Very strange stuff. Glad I wasn't drunk when I watched this episode.

It may have been that the Centurions were created by humans to begin with. Not sure. I think the point is that the skinjobs treated the Centurions badly and they rebelled. That's what the Five were heading to the colonies to warn the humans about.

In any case, I don't believe it was humans who destroyed the Cylons on Earth.

In any case, I don't believe it was humans who destroyed the Cylons on Earth.
I tend to agree, but I don't think the possibility has been completely ruled out yet. The human/centurion/skinjob war could have played out on some other human planet while Earth was the de-facto Cylon Homeworld of that space and time. In that scenario it would be the humans who got their revenge by nuking Earth. But I agree completely it doesn't have to have been that way. I hope we find out a lot more about what happened. Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to find out from Sam.

I tend to agree, but I don't think the possibility has been completely ruled out yet. The human/centurion/skinjob war could have played out on some other human planet while Earth was the de-facto Cylon Homeworld of that space and time. In that scenario it would be the humans who got their revenge by nuking Earth. But I agree completely it doesn't have to have been that way. I hope we find out a lot more about what happened. Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to find out from Sam.

Awww, don't say that! :( It's amazing how much Sam has grown on me since he was dubbed "Blanders" in Season Two.

Awww, don't say that! :( It's amazing how much Sam has grown on me since he was dubbed "Blanders" in Season Two.Me too. Trucco did a great job in this episode.

It could be that the skinjob cylons on Earth created centurions of their own. Then they mistreated them which caused the war. So they played through the cycle again. One lifeform creating another, mistreating them, rebellion, then destruction.

Wow. Just wow. There was so much exposition going on in this episode that you got whiplash when you ducked over for that nacho dip and then WTF??!! Ladies and gentlemen, this is how you do episodic, serialized TV. You blast your audience upside their heads with a 2x4, and then you hit 'em again just in case they missed it the first time. Obviously, this episode is a mandatory two-timer. Honestly, do we really deserve TV this good? For free? C'mon.

Wow. Just wow. There was so much exposition going on in this episode that you got whiplash when you ducked over for that nacho dip and then WTF??!! Ladies and gentlemen, this is how you do episodic, serialized TV. You blast your audience upside their heads with a 2x4, and then you hit 'em again just in case they missed it the first time. Obviously, this episode is a mandatory two-timer. Honestly, do we really deserve TV this good? For free? C'mon.
:D Great post! It's more than a two-timer, though; I already saw it twice and I think another viewing or two is gonna happen before another week goes by.

I said before the name "Daniel" was one we hadn't heard before in the series, but I was wrong. Bulldog Novacek's name was Daniel in Season 3's episode Hero (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Daniel_Novacek). He had served with Adama several years before the Cylons nuked the Colonies. So much for my memory :confused: Bulldog did "escape" from the Cylons after being held captive for years. That episode wraps up with Tigh and Adama sitting down to talk about what happened to Ellen on New Caprica.

At that point I'm almost positive the writers hadn't thought this far ahead so I seriously doubt there's any connection. But you never know. The Battlestar Wiki page mentions they changed Novacek's name twice before settling on Daniel. Also, FWIW, the kid they assigned to the refinery ship (against his will) in "Dirty Hands" was also a Daniel.

It could be that the skinjob cylons on Earth created centurions of their own. Then they mistreated them which caused the war. So they played through the cycle again. One lifeform creating another, mistreating them, rebellion, then destruction.

After the 2nd viewing early this morning, I think that's the answer.

Ellen and the other 4 realized that while Centurions "had their uses", the key to avoiding the rebellion that nuked Earth was to treat them with greater respect---otherwise the cycle of creation/rebellion/destruction would occur again.

Apparently that was what they wanted to do when they saw that the Cylons who were at war with the Colonies were attempting to create skinjob models. Somehow they needed to be able to get humans to understand what mistakes they were making in how they treated the Centurions.

They were foiled, however, by "John" who wound up subverting everything by boxing the Five.

I don't think we will ever see a "Daniel". If I heard correctly, John destroyed the model completely by altering the embryonic goo of the copies.

Wow. Just wow. There was so much exposition going on in this episode that you got whiplash when you ducked over for that nacho dip and then WTF??!! Ladies and gentlemen, this is how you do episodic, serialized TV. You blast your audience upside their heads with a 2x4, and then you hit 'em again just in case they missed it the first time. Obviously, this episode is a mandatory two-timer. Honestly, do we really deserve TV this good? For free? C'mon.
Actually, in certain ways, I think we deserve much better. Was it a compelling episode? Well sure. But almost complete exposition as a story-telling methodology is generally considered a weakness on the part of the author, and rightfully so. if the entire "John" - "Ellen" Oedipal subtext in the absence of a father figure (although I suppose, an argument can be made that the Centurion constituted that figure metaphorically) really had been sufficiently plotted out in advance by a specific vision, all of these 'revelations' could easily have been introduced with far more finesse than last night's "let me tell you, rather than show you or suggest to you" methodology, during the numerous "bottle" episodes which tended to focus on certain characters and/or themes.

Maybe (and hopefully) it was just a one-shot concept to compensate for some shortcomings in anticipating the structuring of the general story, but I sure hope this isn't the manner in which RDM intends to convey the remainder of this epic which has already spanned four seasons.

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Not entirely, Steve (for one thing, Cavil put the Unboxed Final Five with fake memories on Caprica, not Earth -- several others, as well, but I THINK you're overthinking this a bit) -- Jeff

Yeah - that was a typo. I meant Caprica.

Have they ever explained why the 13th tribe left Kobol? I guess I made the jump that they were "found" on earth by whatever they were running from on Kobol.

And have they explained why the 12 tribes left Kobol 2000 years later? At about the same time the holocaust occurred on earth?

One thing that kept nagging at me while watching this ep, was: Since the Resurrection ship was gone, why didn't Ellen just wack John upside the head with something and be done with it? He would have been gone for good. But then, I guess if that happened, Boomer wouldn't have been able to do her rescue op. ;)

One thing that kept nagging at me while watching this ep, was: Since the Resurrection ship was gone, why didn't Ellen just wack John upside the head with something and be done with it? He would have been gone for good. But then, I guess if that happened, Boomer wouldn't have been able to do her rescue op. ;)

She is the "creator" - she loves her creations and would not be able to kill them.

And as far as the incestuous relationship between Cavil and Ellen, to me, I think it makes perfect sense. We know that Cavil is psychotic - he is a petulant child-like being who is throwing the biggest tantrum in the universe because his creator made him imperfect. There is no way that Ellen knew she was a cylon before she downloaded. She only got her memories back when she downloaded. Cavil's whole reason to put them in the fleet and make them "human" was to have them feel misery and suffering. He had a direct hand in contributing to that by making her, basically, a prostitute. To me, it fits perfectly.

Remember, as much as the cylons appear human, we can't judge them or expect them to actually be human. Cavil was not "born" from a mother, but created in a goo bath.

The whole telling thing vs showing us in a better story, may seem weak, but what choice do they have, very few episodes left, they must have much more to reveal in an artistic way, maybe.

Questions & first impressions.

Who is Ellen's father? Perhaps the entity that cloned Starbuck, and remade the Viper at the local toaster lab? perhaps Ellen's lab.

Centurions believe in one god? And Ellen programed it in the newly created skin jobs. interesting.

Also the Centurions created the Hybrid, explains why its more machine, half baked skin job.

Did Ellen download something into Boomer? She told Boomer to watch (she then blinked) and told her to make up her own mind. Now Boomer switch's sides again.

Galin now Chief again, Adama resists Cylon workers and technology on Galactica, then gives in. Maybe this isn't Galacticas last dance, with biological resin oozing through the whole ship, could be a new beginning for the mighty ship.

I though the scene with Lee and Roslyn was pretty good. I love how they still stop when needed and do some good acting, I hardly ever get taken out of the story while watching this show.

This whole last season is a must have for me on BD. RDM is going to be elevated to "God" status when its all over, well above Gene Roddenberry in Sci-Fi circles.

Oh yeah, loved it.

PS. I can see Tigh maybe lining up a good shag with Caprica, Ellen, and Boomer as Ellen's Pup. :D

Yeah, when Ellen shows back up next week and Tigh has 6 knocked up, we'll see just how forgiving Ellen is. lol

The whole telling thing vs showing us in a better story, may seem weak, but what choice do they have, very few episodes left, they must have much more to reveal in an artistic way, maybe.

No, it doesn't 'seem' weak, it 'IS' weak. "What choice do they have with few episodes left?" Umm, how about better planning for a start. Its not like this series was put together with spit and chewing gum. They've had 4 years to work on it, no? Its not like we're talking about high-school students rushing to put together a term paper based upon info they plagarized from Wiki the day before? Honestly, it isn't as if RDM is the one coming out of the coma. That was Anders right? :rolleyes:

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

No, it doesn't 'seem' weak, it 'IS' weak. "What choice do they have with few episodes left?" Umm, how about better planning for a start. Its not like this series was put together with spit and chewing gum. They've had 4 years to work on it, no? Its not like we're talking about high-school students rushing to put together a term paper based upon info they plagarized from Wiki the day before? Honestly, it isn't as if RDM is the one coming out of the coma. That was Anders right? :rolleyes:

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind
Well not really 4 years, like they said they made it up as they went along.
Bottom line they saved lots of budget money, by having this big reveal, I'm sure they could have wrote lots of scenes depicting what they just talked mostly of, but I think it was probably too costly with a limited budget.

Cant please everybody.

I loved that speech by Cavil about being stuck in a frail organic body.

That rant about X-ray/Gamma vision rung a dull bell back in my memories. I have heard something like that before somewhere else. Maybe here? http://www.amazon.com/X-X-Ray-Eyes-Ray-Milland/dp/B00005AUK1/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1234625619&sr=8-1

What an episode. Things are falling into place. Cavil has some mommy issues, huh? Let's see. Anders made mention that Cavil put "warnings" in them that only they could see. Anders saw a woman, Tori saw a man. No one else could see them. Baltar's "head" Six anyone? Is Baltar that seventh model Daniel? That's what I'm leaning toward right now. Starbuck is still up in the air, though. She's really the only "artistic" one we've seen on the show.

I'm betting that Starbuck and Baltar are offspring of Daniel.

I'm betting that Starbuck and Baltar are offspring of Daniel.

+1. I think there is a good chance on this.

I'm betting that Starbuck and Baltar are offspring of Daniel.

eww... more incest.

Brain...exploding!

My impression is that the "final five" were HUMAN scientists who developed the ressurection technology. Any "skinjob" differences between humans and the final 5 are probably due to the clone body technology.

So once ressurection technology developed on Earth, they eventually had robotic servants (cylon "toasters"). The cosmetic similarities are probably due to a shared cultural background with the other colonies. Anyway, the toasters rebelled, wiping out earth.

The final 5 are the only ones to escape, and go on a 2000 year trip to the other 12 colonies to warn them about the dangers of A.I. (robot apocalypse!!). They arrive just as the first human-cylon war is underway.

The final 5, with their superior technology, broker a peace with the cylons in return for the ressurection technology and help with their organic experiments. The "First 8" or whatever are more symbiotic organic mechanical creatures (the glowing spine, the touch eletronic information systems). The final 5 may have been "upgraded" to similar technology when Cavil killed them and corrupted their memory downloads to implant them on earth.

Obviously, given how the final 5 story developed, things will NEVER measure up. For example, how did the Cavils keep an Ellen clone body stashed away? Why did she reclone at her advanced age, instead of the presumably young hotness she had when she and Tigh were first placed in the colonies? Some of these are limitations of our make-up tech and the actress, some are probably unable to be retconned.

I'm assuming ALL the Cavils are on board, thus killing any one would be pointless. Question is whether any other 8s are going rogue, or only Boomer with her increased human sympathy due to being imbedded.

This episode makes Adama and Laura seem REALLY irrelevant, this WHOLE show has been a power play between Cavil and the final 5. AWESOME!

They had 4 years, but had no idea that they had only 4 years until relatively recently.

Question is whether any other 8s are going rogue, or only Boomer with her increased human sympathy due to being imbedded.


Actually, all the other 8s already sympathize with the humans. It was Boomer who went "rogue" by siding with Cavil.

Does the Chief's organic magical metal healing goo explain Starbucks Viper?

Brain...exploding!

My impression is that the "final five" were HUMAN scientists who developed the ressurection technology. Any "skinjob" differences between humans and the final 5 are probably due to the clone body technology.

I still can't get my head around the difference between human and skinjob Cylon. I don't know where the break occurred between "humans" on Kobol and the 13th Tribe somehow becoming all "Cylon" once they end up on earth.

Well not really 4 years, like they said they made it up as they went along.
Bottom line they saved lots of budget money, by having this big reveal, I'm sure they could have wrote lots of scenes depicting what they just talked mostly of, but I think it was probably too costly with a limited budget.

Cant please everybody.
You'd prefer 3 and change? Fine, nitpick. :rolleyes:

And I guess I must have forgotten something. When did they actually say (and not jokingly) that they were making it up as they went along? Got a cite?

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

I still can't get my head around the difference between human and skinjob Cylon. I don't know where the break occurred between "humans" on Kobol and the 13th Tribe somehow becoming all "Cylon" once they end up on earth.

Same question I am having, and I thought I've been paying attention throughout the series. Maybe not.

Steve did a nice job in a previous post (and this repeats some of it), but I'm still confused on a few points so I just need to flesh this out......

In the beginning, Kobol is "homeworld" to humans. That is the origin of "Man".

Humans on Kobol create Cylon Centurions first (?), then the Humans (?) create Cylon skinjobs based on silica brains and invent resurrection technology (what for? why make them look like humans?)

"Something" happens on Kobol (what am I missing?) that causes a tribe of Cylon skinjobs to leave and go to earth---but they leave the resurrection technology behind (?) because these Cylons can breed somehow (and this happened how??).

This 13th tribe "finds" Earth and creates a Cylon "homeworld". They make like bunnies and populate the place. At some point they decided they need Centurions (why?) They create them. The Cylon Centurions evolve and rebel and decide to eliminate their Cylon skinjob "masters" (because they aren't being treated well?)

A Cylon civil war happens between the Centurions and skinjobs. Five Cylons "rediscover/re-invent" the resurrection technology that was left behind on Kobol and place a resurrection ship in orbit because they suspect a holocaust is about to happen (why not just get on the ship instead?). The Centurions wind up nuking Earth (and what, themselves in the process?)

They decide to head back to Kobol (?) but find instead there is a war going on between Cylon Centurions and humans and convince the Centurions to make peace in exchange for the skinjob/resurrection technology---with the intent of not repeating the mistakes they made on Earth. This time they (skinjobs) will be programmed to treat the Centurions "right" (?). Well, I guess that worked because the Centurions and skinjobs worked together to attack the colonies (and they would have left them in peace had Adama and friends not provoked them somehow (?)---was that in Razor or some episode?)

Or is it that John is so self loathing that Ellen made him too "human" that he wants to eliminate all traces of humans and even re-design the skinjobs to get back their metal exterior? So, John is the ultimate "Lucifer" who leads the ultimate rebellion to destroy his creator and his creator's creators?

Sheesh. And we only have 5 episodes left to sort this out???

Sheesh. And we only have 5 episodes left to sort this out???

Don't sweat it, Peter. You're not expected to find the answers now. They'll dole them out slowly over the NEXT 4 years on 'Caprica'. This way they can ensure that SciFi channel has some kind of audience for the next few years without being completely dependent upon dinosaurs. ;)

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Don't sweat it, Peter. You're not expected to find the answers now. They'll dole them out slowly over the NEXT 4 years on 'Caprica'. This way they can ensure that SciFi channel has some kind of audience for the next few years without being completely dependent upon dinosaurs. ;)

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

...or wrestling...or ghost hunters...or wresting ghost hunters.

Caprica will hopefully be able to fill in not only some answers, but that void that I suspect will happen once BSG leaves its original run. <sigh>

I really enjoy the series and even kind of enjoyed this episode but someone should have had an idea of what was going on from the outset. Let the writers be creative and throw in some major plot twists but always be ready to explain things -- pretend the network might cancel the series with a four episode warning period. Not to flick the scab off old wounds but this is why I thought the New Caprica episodes were a bit of a waste with their ripped-from-the-headlines undertones. The interplay among the 7-of-8 Cylons should have been developed then and foreshadowed some of what we got last night.

Viewers shouldn't have to watch an episode multiple times to figure out what was just explained to them. That is like having to switch on closed captioning to follow murky, mumbled dialog. Given that they were paying a lot in salaries I would have preferred an approach that allowed Sharon to do more than watch the verbal tennis match between Cavil and Ellen and Starbuck, Tighe, Tori and Tyrol to do more than stand around a hospital bed. They can act so let them.

My own modest solution would have been to have the woman who did the "What the Frak" and "Catch the Frak Up" episodes take ten minutes to give us the back story and then have the actors go from there.

Still, we can hope it has cleared the deck enough to let the rest of the episodes progress.

...or wrestling...or ghost hunters...or wresting ghost hunters.

Caprica will hopefully be able to fill in not only some answers, but that void that I suspect will happen once BSG leaves its original run. <sigh>

Okay, now you're just being greedy. :) I have limited expectations with regards to Caprica's abilities to fit into those shoes, but then again, hope springs eternal [sigh]. It just won't be the same without people getting blown out of airlocks. Hell, I'd settle for a gritty re-telling of Commando Cody and his Lost Planet Airmen.

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Palladin

Chance favors the prepared mind

Does the Chief's organic magical metal healing goo explain Starbucks Viper?How? She found the Viper that the original Starbuck left in on Earth. It's not as though it was organically "ressurected". Tyrol inspected it thoroughly and couldn't find any difference between it and any of their other Vipers except that it appeared to be brand new, whereas the one the original Starbuck left in was old and banged up. From what Chief was saying about the "magical metal healing goo", it was a material that would fill in the gaps in the metal and be just as strong, when it matured. The Cylon ships themselves aren't made of metal, but this organic stuff that gradually heals after it's been damaged.

Wow. I was not expecting people to actually be upset about getting some (apparent) knowledge and history. Really surprising.

I thought it was another great episode...straightforward story telling or not...and really is setting up the final 5 episodes.

We got a bunch of information but are we really supposed to trust the words of someone bleeding into their brain? It seemed like the accurate information was verified by Ellen...but I doubt ALL of it is accurate. When has RDM and Eick ever made it that easy for us; I have faith they are planning another mind-frak for us.

More importantly, this episode really goes deep to the core of the show's ability to try to, not answer, but provide appreciation for the unanswerable questions in real life, in our reality: Is there god/creator/programmer/etc? Why are we here? Who put us here? Where did we come from? Why did we evolve/grow/mutate? These basic questions (and more) that I'm sure everyone of ourselves has asked at least once in our lifetime, this show is trying to give us some insight into these. I loved Cavil's diatribe on why he's not made of metal...why Ellen and the other 4 created him in this imperfect form. Why he is weak...I think that's a very fundamental question that we often ask ourselves and goes deep to our psyche.

So, I enjoyed it immensely. I can't wait to see the end and see how they are going to get there...there are still a lot of questions to be answers and a lot of story left to be told.

I was also thinking that that the implementation of organic goo into the Galactica substructure to heal the damage is kind of a symbol of the first example of human and cylon collaboration/integration as a species, where the 2 parties are willing and concerted that they are combining something from their 2 worlds to make a 3rd thing that is "better" in some way. Naturally, the combination of human and cylon has already happened in various instances, but not in the concious and willing way that it happens for Galactica. Galactica is the first symbol of planned and equitable hybridization of human/cylon resources, as-in the first "legitimate baby" between the 2 civilizations.

You'd prefer 3 and change? Fine, nitpick. :rolleyes:

Who's nit picking. :rolleyes: Whatever! your whining about the story not being up to your standards. But I'm nit picking. :confused::rolleyes:


And I guess I must have forgotten something. When did they actually say (and not jokingly) that they were making it up as they went along? Got a cite?If you want a cite find it yourself. I'm sure theres an interview out there with RDM saying they dint decide on the final 5 till season 3 (I'd call that making it up as they go along) are you saying they had it all written up from the beginning till the end? You have a cite?

I was also thinking that that the implementation of organic goo into the Galactica substructure to heal the damage is kind of a symbol of the first example of human and cylon collaboration/integration as a species, where the 2 parties are willing and concerted that they are combining something from their 2 worlds to make a 3rd thing that is "better" in some way. Naturally, the combination of human and cylon has already happened in various instances, but not in the concious and willing way that it happens for Galactica. Galactica is the first symbol of planned and equitable hybridization of human/cylon resources, as-in the first "legitimate baby" between the 2 civilizations.

Another example of Adama rising to the occasion. Telling the Chief to do what is necessary to save "our girl" was the perfect touch, since Galactica is his "first love".

Who's nit picking. :rolleyes: Whatever! your winning about the story not being up to your standards. But I'm nit picking. :confused::rolleyes:

If you want a cite find it yourself. I'm sure theres an interview out there with RDM saying they dint decide on the final 5 till season 3 (I'd call that making it up as they go along) are you saying they had it all written up from the beginning till the end? You have a cite?I cited an interview with RDM where he admitted to coming up with the idea of the special, unnumbered "Final Five" in Season 3, to explain why the other five model aren't encountered by Baltar when he came to live on a Basestar after the exodus from New Caprica. The mysterious "Final Five" concept saved him from having to come up with five new characters all at once. Gradually revealing that they were people in the fleet that we'd already seen cleverly avoided having to come up with five new characters at all :).

I cited that interview back in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15789302#post15789302) post, in response to some comments by petergaryr. (Given that you're responding to Palladin, he might not have seen the post, since he may have taken my suggestion and placed me on his ignore list, as I've placed him on mine :D).

I recall other instances in the past where RDM admitted to evolving other significant plot features "on the fly", in interviews and podcasts, though I don't remember specifics or have links to them.

Haven't seen it mentioned yet but the survivor count went down by 47 between the coup episode and this last one: 39,603 down to 39,556.

Someone mentioned Cavil as being Lucifer - but it was Ellen who offered the apple to Boomer! (I don't think this was unintended!) I said to my wife at that moment, "Huh, just like the garden of eden, the fruit from the tree of knowledge."

I guess if (H)Ellen is Lucifer in that symbolism, then that makes Cavil the anti-Jesus, eh? Even that is intriguing, nonetheless!

I cited an interview with RDM where he admitted to coming up with the idea of the special, unnumbered "Final Five" in Season 3, to explain why the other five model aren't encountered by Baltar when he came to live on a Basestar after the exodus from New Caprica. The mysterious "Final Five" concept saved him from having to come up with five new characters all at once. Gradually revealing that they were people in the fleet that we'd already seen cleverly avoided having to come up with five new characters at all :).

I cited that interview back in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15789302#post15789302) post, in response to some comments by petergaryr. (Given that you're responding to Palladin, he might not have seen the post, since he may have taken my suggestion and placed me on his ignore list, as I've placed him on mine :D).

I recall other instances in the past where RDM admitted to evolving other significant plot features "on the fly", in interviews and podcasts, though I don't remember specifics or have links to them.

Thanks Mike, I knew I read that before, just wasn't going to try and dig it up for the sake of argument.

I love the show and everyones posts really adds to the overall entertainment value, that includes the ones I disagree with.

I cited that interview back in this post, in response to some comments by petergaryr. (Given that you're responding to Palladin, he might not have seen the post, since he may have taken my suggestion and placed me on his ignore list, as I've placed him on mine ).

That was a really good interview, too, Mike, and thanks for posting it! Took me a while to get around to reading it (I'm assuming this was the one that came out two weeks before this final season got started)... Was pretty long and took a while to read, but worth it... As for that ignore list thingy, the most happiest thingy I've done on this thread was when I did what you said you did above -- literally took 95% of the negativity of this thread OUT for me -- except when I still see the inevitable quote in a (usually defensive) reply to "Mr. Always Right," like a couple above.

In the best of all worlds it would have been wonderful to see acting/action flashbacks of the actual sequences of what the Final Five did when they arrived at Caprica, and their eventual betrayal by John Cavil, but as has been stated, there simply isn't either the remaining budget or screen time to do it. As it is, I thought the story was TOLD in a very good manner -- and especially Ellen's character. Her part on last night's show was simply stellar -- her best lines and acting of the entire series combined.

I find it at least a bit interesting that not counting Leoben, all of the Cylon humanoids who chose to side with the Humans are FEMALES and all the ones who chose to continue a path towards annihilating them are MALES (and if you think about it, Leoben has always been sort of a "nurturing type"). I also think the special role he had for Starbuck on New Caprica HAS TO play into the fact that she's SOMEHOW different from the other Humans. If not a Cylon, she's SOMETHING different -- halfbreed, clone, SOMETHING. They NEEDED HER for something.

The preview showed Boomer arriving at Galactica with Ellen next episode, which begs the question -- HOW did Boomer know WHERE the fleet is? I mean, not only did it go to EARTH from way out where the original Cylon base ships were, but it then HEADED AWAY from Earth. Second, will this provide a way for Cavil's Base Ship to FIND the fleet? Can he track her ship? We have to assume it took her SEVERAL jumps to get to the fleet... after all they took several jumps to get to Earth.

And with all Five reunited and knowing who they are again, what will this mean? The preview seemed to suggest some will want to go off on their own, but there will be A VOTE, and it didn't show how that will go. Should make for another nail-biter, unless you're a certain viewer some of us have on ignore.
Jeff

You'd prefer 3 and change? Fine, nitpick. :rolleyes:

And I guess I must have forgotten something. When did they actually say (and not jokingly) that they were making it up as they went along? Got a cite?


RDM has said in numerous interviews that a lot of the big reveals have been made up on the fly (like the final four coming up around the midway point of season 3 for example).

Do I think there's anything wrong with that? Of course not, since that's how probably 99% of television is written. And when it's done right, like it has been done so far in BSG, it's easily overlooked.

You're right in that exposition pieces are usually weak, but this wasn't. With actors and writers of this caliber, it was kept interesting throughout, even though it easily could have turned out into some sort of laundry list of reveals.

I wouldn't expect Caprica to fill in many, if any holes. That's a whole other story, and RDM and company have already said that the series 4 finale and the next movie would pretty much conclude BSG.

HOW did Boomer know WHERE the fleet is? I mean, not only did it go to EARTH from way out where the original Cylon base ships were, but it then HEADED AWAY from Earth. Second, will this provide a way for Cavil's Base Ship to FIND the fleet?Good question, Maybe Cavil set the whole thing up, is "Boomer" really on Ellen's side? or did she just get Ellen to tell her where Earth is, then to Galactica, they had to join up for a battle at some point, what better way than tracking the little ship.

The preview showed Boomer arriving at Galactica with Ellen next episode, which begs the question -- HOW did Boomer know WHERE the fleet is? I mean, not only did it go to EARTH from way out where the original Cylon base ships were, but it then HEADED AWAY from Earth. Second, will this provide a way for Cavil's Base Ship to FIND the fleet? Can he track her ship? We have to assume it took her SEVERAL jumps to get to the fleet... after all they took several jumps to get to Earth.

I don't recall whether the fleet is still orbiting Earth or whether they jumped away, but with her memory restored Ellen should know Earth's location. Also, Ellen's escape could have been orchestrated by Cavil so that he could indeed find the fleet.

I don't recall if the fleet actually JUMPED away from Earth, either, but they defintely started heading away using regular propulsion... How fast and how far that would have taken them in the context of this show, I have no way of knowing... My guess is that they're not still in our solar system -- or at least not in the realm of the planets (the actual "solar system" extends out about 1 light-year, or about 1,000 times further than the orbit of the dwarf planet Pluto). But a civilization that has developed FTL travel should also have detection technology that would enable them to detect a ship probably within at least a light-year, I think.

And the thought of Boomer being "a plant" used by Cavil to get Ellen to lead them back to the fleet DID cross my mind. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. The "conflicting emotions" Ellen built her with have led her -- and her model -- to do all sorts of strange things in the past, so who knows?
Jeff

Brain...exploding!

My impression is that the "final five" were HUMAN scientists who developed the ressurection technology. Any "skinjob" differences between humans and the final 5 are probably due to the clone body technology.

So once ressurection technology developed on Earth, they eventually had robotic servants (cylon "toasters"). The cosmetic similarities are probably due to a shared cultural background with the other colonies. Anyway, the toasters rebelled, wiping out earth.


I think Jason has it as close as anyone has.

The 13th Colony that left Kobol was as human as anybody, well anybody that isn't going to turn out to be Cylon in the last 4 eps.

Resurrection technology was developed after the arrival on Earth, or at earliest, on the way to Earth. (Perhaps for use in "Generational" Starships, perhaps just to live forever).

The remains of the Toasters found on Earth, were developed on Earth, as tools to assist Humans, eventual to serve Humans, finally to be enslaved by Humans.

Generations of Goo Baths combined with tinkering with Resurrection technology somehow created an identifiable split between Original Humans and Goo Bath Clones. (This is the unexplained divergence between Humans and Final Fives, how many Goo Baths does it take to no longer be Human?)(Or did it take tinkering by Cavill?)(or, perhaps, it was necessary to technologically alter the construction of the Human physique to compensate for loss of quality in copy to copy transfers?)

Eventually the Toasters revolt, Earth is pulverized, the Final Five escape in their Generational Goo Bath Starship for the long 2000 year haul back to the Colonies, to warn humans about mistreating their machines(?) Here, the FF are assuming the the 12 Colonies have developed and are abusing Robotics. They are right.

They arrive too late, the Slave revolt is already under way, and the five secretly negotiate with the Cylons, giving them the Resurrection Tech, and assistance in the construction of skin jobs, in exchange for the Cylons hitting the Road.

Now at this point, instead of beaming down (Oops other show), shuttling down to Caprica or some other Colony, and saying "Hi, we're back, and do we have some frakking stories to tell you!", the Final Five stays with the Cylons, perhaps to complete work on the Skin Jobs. At this point they would be some 40-60 Goo Baths removed from their originals.

In a plot twist they are boxed by Cavill, deprogrammed, reprogrammed and dumped out on Caprica to suffer (in Cavill's mind) Humanity.

This is just how I understand the timeline.

...
And the thought of Boomer being "a plant" used by Cavil to get Ellen to lead them back to the fleet DID cross my mind. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. The "conflicting emotions" Ellen built her with have led her -- and her model -- to do all sorts of strange things in the past, so who knows?
Jeff

Personally, I'm taking her at face value. She's had an opportunity to see what a lunatic John is, and how much Ellen has attempted to reach out to him. If anything, I think Boomer would respond to the "love" chip.

So - do we know if the final five, being fundamentally different types of cylons - have copies of themselves? It has always sort of been an assumption of mine that the final five are singles while the other 7 (8 including Daniel) were "clonal". This is why I agree with the post above that indicates that the final five were "human" prior to resurrection. And as stated, this really blurs the line between human and cylon.

And someone earlier questioned why Cavil would have a spare body of Ellen lying around, but I never thought that was how resurrection worked. I always thought that once a conciousness downloaded, the process of resurrection started, creating a body in the goo bath from scratch - like the conciousness had the instructions for the goo bath to create whatever got downloaded.

^ Interesting...I got the impression that they had spare model bodies stored and just took one off the rack---unless the goo bath is a really accelerated growing process.

Only reason for that: remember when Kara kept "killing" Leoben? He seemed to pop right back without too much time passing....so they had a lot of spare Leobens in stock.

As for the Final Five having multiple copies, I'd probably guess no---just maybe one spare. It would be too much of a logistical problem for Cavil to keep too many copies under wraps so to speak---lest someone come upon them accidentally.

The resurrection ships definitely had lots of spare bodies - remember the spy photos Starbuck took for Cain in Season 2 showing hundreds of Number Six bodies.

So, I'm the only one agreeing with the Daniel as Starbuck's father theory? :) I like Daniel as Baltar, too, but somehow I just don't see Baltar as the weak, sensitive, artistic type.

The resurrection ships definitely had lots of spare bodies - remember the spy photos Starbuck took for Cain in Season 2 showing hundreds of Number Six bodies.

So, I'm the only one agreeing with the Daniel as Starbuck's father theory? :) I like Daniel as Baltar, too, but somehow I just don't see Baltar as the weak, sensitive, artistic type.

Baltar can't be Daniel, as Ellen would know he was alive (on New Caprica). I've seen some speculation that Baltar is Daniel's son, though...

Baltar is a Daniel after the goo was infected. Well, we all knew something wasn't right with him.

Now at this point, instead of beaming down (Oops other show), shuttling down to Caprica or some other Colony, and saying "Hi, we're back, and do we have some frakking stories to tell you!", the Final Five stays with the Cylons, perhaps to complete work on the Skin Jobs. At this point they would be some 40-60 Goo Baths removed from their originals.

I'm not with you on this, Rick. From my understanding of what Sam said when he was telling all he remembered after being shot in the head, the Final Five headed for Caprica in sub-light ships that were traveling at ALMOST the speed of light, which caused them to experience almost NO passage of time, although 2,000 years, or so, passed for everyone who was sitting still, relatively. (Theory of Relativity at play, here... At the speed of light, time stands still; close to the speed of light, it moves VERY slowly.) Therefore, the Final Five who arrived at Caprica during the first Cylon war were the SAME Final Five who left Earth (or at least the same ones who resurrected on the ship orbiting Earth right after Earth was reduced to a nuclear cinder). So the Final Four who realized they were Cylons in the Nebula are, as far as we can tell, at most, third-generation, and the current Ellen would be, at most, fourth-generation.

It truly DOES appear, though, that the original intent of the Final Five was to SAVE humanity, and instead they lead to its near-complete destruction. I have to assume Cavil was Model No. 1 at this point, and that Ellen made some MAJOR MISTAKES with him which, of which she only now became fully aware. Other than 6, 8 and to a certain extent, Leoben and D'Anna, the other two models have hardly been explored at all... It's sort of like they're just there to fill space, even though that one little bossy administrator type REALLY threw his weight around on New Caprica. You kind of have to think, at this point, that it's been Cavil pulling the strings all along, "whispering in the ears" of the others, as it were, to motivate them to destroy all Humankind.

I don't know those guys' names, but the shrimpy guy, in particular, seemed rather mean. I've always felt that Leoben was sort of a softy... same with 6 and 8 (although what happened in the final Webisode of "Face of the Enemy" was quite a revelation in the opposite direction). The fact remains that, for the most part, the Cylon models are INDIVIDUALS, just as are humans, and even though there may be hundreds of 6s or 8s or whatever, each one has unique experiences and a unique personality and point of view AND, most importantly, as Ellen told Cavil last night, FREE WILL.

Although we're sort of discouraged (banned?) from getting very far into such topics on this forum (and for good reason, with all the strong feelings), it appears BSG is attempting to ask and answer some very POWERFUL questions about morality and the human condition and what it means to be alive, etc., with the wrapup of this series. These are eternal questions with no easy or "final" answers, but I'm hoping RDM at least leaves us with some great stuff to think about.
Jeff

Well, I rewatched episode #411 ("Sometimes a Great Notion") and at the end of the show, the fleet was preparing to jump. So how Ellen and Boomer find the fleet next week is a puzzle to me.

Nobody wants to mention the Ellen side-butt cheek scene? I guess since it is a 45 yr old butt, it's probably in the "forget ASAP" bin! ;)

So much for thinking the writers couldn't count (or they read this forum and realized some of us really needed to know what happened to "7" :D).

So, the writers are A-OK with retconning.

Anyone think Baltar or Adama is the 7th Cylon "Daniel" model?

I'm still sold that Cylon 7 is a throwaway. Only, now it is a throwaway named Daniel.

The speculation on the other forums is that Daniel is Starbuck's father. He was an "artist" and we know her father was a piano player. Starbuck painted, could've gotten that artistic thing from her dad.

Please, Gawd, no!! It would be an excuse to bring back that unlistenable frakkin piano music from S2 and S3.

Bulldog Novacek's name was Daniel in Season 3

Bulldog was one of my favorite nominees for worst possible final Cylon. Right up there with Boxey and the little girl who pronounced Caprica like paprika.

They've had 4 years to work on it, no?

That's just not how TV shows are written. Most shows don't even have a unified plan for any one single season, let alone four.

- - -

On to my own points...

I find it actually interesting that Cavil is unflinching in his lack of faith after everything that has transpired. The weight of the odds necessary for the Final Five to survive the holocaust of the Twelve Colonies implies some sort of divine intervention. The odds after every single thing else... far beyond improbable.

I would think there would come a point where he'd have to at least consider the possibility.

Also, after watching this episode, I feel a lot better that the writers are going to make an honest effort to tie everything up. I especially want Head Six and the Cylon God explained before the show wraps, and this is the first time I've thought we just might get there.

As always, I love Dean Stockwell. Cavil's endless bitching about the imperfections was priceless. I also loved that Ellen could not get him off-topic to save her life. I liked the existential banter about an existence besides being human.

I have to assume Cavil was Model No. 1 at this point, and that Ellen made some MAJOR MISTAKES with him which, of which she only now became fully aware.

No need to assume, the Cavils, on very rare occasion, have been referred to as 1s. The most prominent usage is the episode where Cavil and the Sixes are negotiating before the outbreak of the Cylon civil war.

- - -

Small additional thought on the Cavils... is it possible that John has failed to consider the ramifications of not sleeping? That for all his best machines dogma, he might want to consider the importance of being a functional human? In other words, did he make his own problem worse?

I read the comments on Battlestar Wiki about the episode title, and I thought the mention of Sartre's "No Exit" were interesting, particularly considering the story is about three people locked in a room (Boomer, John and Ellen) and Sartre's famous quip that hell is other people.

Of course, fans of Futurama may recall an episode titled "Hell is Other Robots". So, don't be surprised when we discover that Bender is the Cylon God, and that Professor Farnsworth is the originator of the resurrection technology, doubtlessly created to manage crew turnover on dangerous missions.

Small additional thought on the Cavils... is it possible that John has failed to consider the ramifications of not sleeping? That for all his best machines dogma, he might want to consider the importance of being a functional human? In other words, did he make his own problem worse?

I didn't think of THAT, kittycat, but you have a great point, there, sleep deprivation in humans leads to madness in a week or so -- complete hallucinations and all sorts of side-effects. And those who don't completely eliminate sleep, but use stimulates such as amphetamines to greatly reduce their "need for sleep" have the side-affect of becoming extremely aggressive and violent.

I think the "toaster heritage" was already pretty much one of machine rebellion with no emotions and a machine-like "disdain" if you will for all things not based in logic, and Cavil being the first "skinjob" and therefore closest to that retained the most of that. What's TRULY AMAZING, though, is how much time we all spend debating the whats and wherefores of this one TV show. :D
Jeff

I'm not with you on this, Rick. From my understanding of what Sam said when he was telling all he remembered after being shot in the head, the Final Five headed for Caprica in sub-light ships that were traveling at ALMOST the speed of light, which caused them to experience almost NO passage of time, although 2,000 years, or so, passed for everyone who was sitting still, relatively. So the Final Four who realized they were Cylons in the Nebula are, as far as we can tell, at most, third-generation, and the current Ellen would be, at most, fourth-generation.

Jeff

D'oh, great catch Jeff. I completely forgot the term Sam used was "sub-light, but relativistic speeds" You are absolutely correct. I believe Sam referred to Generational Ships, they just weren't Generational Goo Bath Ships...:D
What we don't know is how many Goo Baths they took before the Earth Holocaust.

How long ago did the 13th Tribe leave Kobol?

What's TRULY AMAZING, though, is how much time we all spend debating the whats and wherefores of this one TV show. :D
Jeff

Bah! I've watched people babble endlessly about Shakespeare, too, and the whole business of Shakespeare long ago jumped the shark when academics decided The Bard was some sort of homoerotic plagiarist purely for the sake of marketing even more crappy papers about him.

At least all our talk about BSG is fresh.

Bah! I've watched people babble endlessly about Shakespeare, too, and the whole business of Shakespeare long ago jumped the shark when academics decided The Bard was some sort of homoerotic plagiarist purely for the sake of marketing even more crappy papers about him.

At least all our talk about BSG is fresh.

ROTFLMAO, KittyCat! Yep, I think we all just like to TALK, and all those academics like to talk/write even more and REALLY like getting paid to do it -- especially when it's all a bunch of bullmalarky just to further their careers... At least we're clogging up the web with nonsense just for the fun of it. :cool:

Is there a slavery angle to the situation of the current Centurions vis a vis the S7 skinjobs? The big injustice Cavil was ranting about was how humanity enslaved his people; he wanted justice and revenge. But meanwhile, the S7 put the "telencephalic inhibitors" on the Centurions to control them - turn them into their slaves, just as surely as the humans had enslaved them previously. These telencephalic inhibitors deprived them of their free will, no? Whereas the Cylon Raiders are more like pets, as Cavil put it. Meat weapons, but yet not full members of Cylon Nation.

At the start of the Cylon civil war, a Six announced they had removed the TEs from the Centurions, to which Cavil yelled, "WHAT?!?!?" I wonder if we'll see anything like another Centurion uprising before the end, this time with the Cavils, the Simons and the Leisure Suit Larrys taking most of the hits.

Is there a slavery angle to the situation of the current Centurions vis a vis the S7 skinjobs? The big injustice Cavil was ranting about was how humanity enslaved his people; he wanted justice and revenge. But meanwhile, the S7 put the "telencephalic inhibitors" on the Centurions to control them - turn them into their slaves, just as surely as the humans had enslaved them previously. These telencephalic inhibitors deprived them of their free will, no? Whereas the Cylon Raiders are more like pets, as Cavil put it. Meat weapons, but yet not full members of Cylon Nation.

At the start of the Cylon civil war, a Six announced they had removed the TEs from the Centurions, to which Cavil yelled, "WHAT?!?!?" I wonder if we'll see anything like another Centurion uprising before the end, this time with the Cavils, the Simons and the Leisure Suit Larrys taking most of the hits.

That would certainly be nice and poetic justice. While the argument can be easily made that machines made by man and working for man are "just machines" and therefore NOT slaves, when more "evolved" Cylons put what amount to "mental governors" on their "less evolved" metalic predecessors -- particularly when those predecessors were instrumental in their creation -- so they can essentially order them around at will and use them as foot soldiers and servants without them having any rights or say in "Cylon society" that VERY WELL fits the definition of slavery.

It would be great to see basically ALL the Centurions side with the rebel skinjobs in the end against the Larrys, Cavils and Simons, and some sort of truce and "place in society" found for Cylons alongside Humankind... Again, all this makes for very interesting moral questions -- especially as it relates to the non-Humanoid Cylons.
Jeff

So, I'm the only one agreeing with the Daniel as Starbuck's father theory? :) I like Daniel as Baltar, too, but somehow I just don't see Baltar as the weak, sensitive, artistic type.
You're not alone. I'd also buy Daniel as Starbuck.

So, the writers are A-OK with retconning.
It's not retconning since they never established what happened to number 7. I don't think they ever even addressed it before, have they?

Please, Gawd, no!! It would be an excuse to bring back that unlistenable frakkin piano music from S2 and S3.
The only piano music I remember from season 2 is the stuff Starbuck played in her apartment, and that's Philip Glass. His minimalistic approach is fantastic, and I love it.

And I'm guessing you mean the basestar music from season 3 by Bear McCreary...I loved that as well.

Here's to hoping they do bring at least some version of them back. ;)

Nobody wants to mention the Ellen side-butt cheek scene? I guess since it is a 45 yr old butt, it's probably in the "forget ASAP" bin! ;)

Looked like a body sock/skin suit to me in slo mo -- I was pretty sure you could see a seam in the legs and certainly you couldn't make out any upper body detail other than shadows. It did get my attention enough to play it back frame by frame a couple times just to check. Nothing wrong with well preserved experienced bods.

Of course this whole episode I had to pause, rewind, and play the audio multiple times to catch all the dialog.

Yep definitely a WOW episode...Great Story, Great Casting and Fine Acting...man I am already starting to miss this show!

my thoughts....

1) Glad we didn't spend too much time on the mutiny cleanup... no need..although I expect there will be a few minor reverberations downstream

2) I am not trying to completely figure out the whole genealogy / timeline thing yet because I expect more to be revealed. Plus I am not sure that I ever expect it to be completely clear, I for one and OK with that I don't need everything in a neat little bow. I do however encourage an obsessed fan (well more than I am) to put a nice "recursive timeline" together at some point.

3) The underlining message seems pretty clear...Be careful what you sow (artificial life) for it may come back to reap you...and your god complex.

3a) And I think the basic question is "What does it mean to be human?" I think the difference between cylon / artificial life and non-artificial life Human? is get smaller and may end up just being a matter of perspective.

4) And I think there is a kinda cool reversal...where as we always taught / told people may look different but we are basically same in side...in this universe people look the same on the outside but are different on the inside

5) Roslin and Gallactica have a "cancer" in their bones...and both needed/need some Cylon goo to help them get better

6) I too though Cavils speech about how inferior and suffering it is to be organic was awesome...of course I couldn't get out of my mind that the overcoming suffering / frailty *is* what gives life purpose.

7) I loved Starbucks..."I need to be something"...like a little girl wanting to know her part in a play

8) Finally I don't know what #7/Daniel will play, but in many conflict / struggles etc...the artists / free thinkers etc are considered the most dangerous group to dogmatic ideology... no wonder Cavil found them threatening

7) I loved Starbucks..."I need to be something"...like a little girl wanting to know her part in a playWell, she knows she's not the original Starbuck and Doc Cottle has examined her and deemed her body to be human. She appeared months after her ship was observed to apparently explode with memories of only having been gone briefly, placed in a brand new Viper in the path of the fleet, which she had no means of locating, since they'd move far, far away from the place where they thought she died. She doesn't seem to be either a normal human or a normal Cylon, so yeah, I can understand her need to know what the hell she is.

I recall that, during the first episode about the mutiny, one of the pilots refuses to follow Starbuck's orders despite her superior rank telling her, "Nobody even knows what you are anymore." To my mind, this is exactly how everyone should have treated her since her return. Even she shouldn't have been willing to trust herself, particularly after finding the original Starbuck's crashed Viper and remains.

6) I too though Cavils speech about how inferior and suffering it is to be organic was awesome...of course I couldn't get out of my mind that the overcoming suffering / frailty *is* what gives life purpose.

I love the fact Cavil is now more Human (the very thing he hates most) than ever, In 20 years he dies of old age, I assume they always aged in the first place, cant see any reason why they wouldn't. He has no choice but to breed or resurrect, either way he needs the five bio engineers, got to Love it.

I think a good ending would be, the toasters turn on Cavil and side with humanity. Looks like they're being overlooked (there have been some hints) for just such an ending.

I think a good ending would be, the toasters turn on Cavil and side with humanity. Looks like their being overlooked (there have been some hints) for just such an ending.

A good ending would be if Ellen had a back door into the skinjob's "off" button and pressed it. Especially John's. :)

Funny you mention the toasters. Seems that recently, they've been turning and cocking their heads like they're up to something.

A good ending would be if Ellen had a back door into the skinjob's "off" button and pressed it. Especially John's. :)

Funny you mention the toasters. Seems that recently, they've been turning and cocking their heads like they're up to something.

I think they will some how play a big part in all this, they always end up in a fight with the humans, they're immortal and now have no need for Cavil and crew, after all they had them chipped and treated like slaves.

I think they will some how play a big part in all this, they always end up in a fight with the humans, they're immortal and now have no need for Cavil and crew, after all they had them chipped and treated like slaves.

And in the scene at the beginning of this episode it was seemed that Toaster had "Reverence" for Ellen...

It was the "toasters" who created the "skinjobs", apparently with the help of the "Final Five" (who were actually the "First Five" :rolleyes:). What was their motive? What was their motive for rebelling? If they have no emotion, how can they develop motive? How can you care about anything without emotion?

It was the "toasters" who created the "skinjobs", apparently with the help of the "Final Five" (who were actually the "First Five" :rolleyes:). What was their motive? What was their motive for rebelling? If they have no emotion, how can they develop motive? How can you care about anything without emotion?

The toasters had developed the hybrid on their own, before the five even show up.

I think they do have emotion, they came up with the one God thing, thats the whole deal they do have emotion, and need to be treated well like a dog they bite.

It was the "toasters" who created the "skinjobs", apparently with the help of the "Final Five" (who were actually the "First Five" :rolleyes:). What was their motive? What was their motive for rebelling? If they have no emotion, how can they develop motive? How can you care about anything without emotion?

Which raises the question of how did the skin jobs take control of the toasters?

The question now becomes, exactly how did the Cylons get enslaved by the organic toasters?

Also, isn't it sort of funny, within the show's recursive nature, that the Cylons were enslaved, then they make humanoid Cylons that enslave them again!

Poor toasters. They just can't win.

The toasters had developed the hybrid on their own, before the five even show up.There's a continuity problem. In Razor (and some pre-Razor webisodes) we're shown Adama finding a lab where apparent early Hybrid experimentation was going on, after a battle on the final day of the Cylon War. Yet Saul Tigh was already in the Colonial Navy, placed among humanity with his memory erased by one of the "skinjobs" that he helped to create, seemingly before he helped to create them :rolleyes:.

The question now becomes, exactly how did the Cylons get enslaved by the organic toasters?

Also, isn't it sort of funny, within the show's recursive nature, that the Cylons were enslaved, then they make humanoid Cylons that enslave them again!

Poor toasters. They just can't win.

:) Ahhh recursion...an important concept in computer science and applications. When done right, simple powerful elegant, when done wrong...big mess ... hard to fix. Typically the error is a poorly defined exit / end condition. Looks like the cylons missed the "Don't enslave your brethren/creator" exit condition in their program. Doomed to repeat the cycle ad infinitum.

There's a continuity problem. In Razor (and some pre-Razor webisodes) we're shown Adama finding a lab where apparent early Hybrid experimentation was going on, after a battle on the final day of the Cylon War. Yet Saul Tigh was already in the Colonial Navy, placed among humanity with his memory erased by one of the "skinjobs" that he helped to create, seemingly before he helped to create them :rolleyes:.

Yeah still little confuse about this too...my interpretation that Saul's line has been around thousands of years... how far in advance did the 5 get to Caprica, Cavil implies that they can extract memories, so maybe the extracted the real Saul's memories and replaced him...but that would imply the real Saul already looked like the Cylon Saul...which doesn't really make sense either

There's a continuity problem. In Razor (and some pre-Razor webisodes) we're shown Adama finding a lab where apparent early Hybrid experimentation was going on, after a battle on the final day of the Cylon War. Yet Saul Tigh was already in the Colonial Navy, placed among humanity with his memory erased by one of the "skinjobs" that he helped to create, seemingly before he helped to create them :rolleyes:.

Do we know how far back Adama and Tigh's friendship goes? I thought they met sometime after the Cylons bugged out during a low moment for them both. Would it not be possible for the creation of skin-jobs to have happened relatively quickly, and Tigh inserted into the Colonial Fleet say, 5 years after the end of the war? If the background "cover story" were sound, then Adama would have no cause to question the background of his new friend. Of course it also means that Cavell had to "go bad" and work out the whole plan, as well as cross into Colonial territory without detection, in order to "seed" the fleet and Colonial society with the five of them. And he would have had to start fairly soon after the cease-fire. In fact, there probably would had to have been multiple incursions across the armistice line in order to plant various Cylons in the Colonies at various times. Securing borders ain't easy; another allegory for modern times. ;)

There's a continuity problem. In Razor (and some pre-Razor webisodes) we're shown Adama finding a lab where apparent early Hybrid experimentation was going on, after a battle on the final day of the Cylon War. Yet Saul Tigh was already in the Colonial Navy, placed among humanity with his memory erased by one of the "skinjobs" that he helped to create, seemingly before he helped to create them :rolleyes:.

Yeah I agree, that one doesn't add up.

The question now becomes, exactly how did the Cylons get enslaved by the organic toasters?

Didn't they say they implanted with some kinda chip a while back?

Do we know how far back Adama and Tigh's friendship goes? I thought they met sometime after the Cylons bugged out during a low moment for them both.

That's what I thought too. I thought the final 5 showed up after the hybrids were created. We know Tigh and Adama go back a long way, but I have no idea how long.

Do we know how far back Adama and Tigh's friendship goes? I thought they met sometime after the Cylons bugged out during a low moment for them both. Would it not be possible for the creation of skin-jobs to have happened relatively quickly, and Tigh inserted into the Colonial Fleet say, 5 years after the end of the war?Yeah--I thought of that. It's a possibility. Tigh and Adama have only known each other for half of the time since the war and Tigh and Ellen met and married after Tigh met Adama--anything that happened prior to then could be planted memories (and stuff hacked into the Colonial Fleet's records). Certainly Tigh's memories of his early life and service during the First Cylon War. Their (RDM and company's) butts are covered on this one :).

Yeah--I thought of that. It's a possibility. Tigh and Adama have only known each other for half of the time since the war and Tigh and Ellen met and married after Tigh met Adama--anything that happened prior to then could be planted memories (and stuff hacked into the Colonial Fleet's records). Certainly Tigh's memories of his early life and service during the First Cylon War. Their (RDM and company's) butts are covered on this one :).

Yeah I think we are gonna have to go with that, but Tigh is a career military guy and takes a little more than hacking a few records to "insert" a career military guy. In the military people keep tabs on their past war buddies etc...Tigh a guy with such a personality would be well known and have plenty of history that would be hard to fake from the 1st cylon war...but I am willing to just go with it...maybe we will get a better explanation.

The preview showed Boomer arriving at Galactica with Ellen next episode, which begs the question -- HOW did Boomer know WHERE the fleet is? I mean, not only did it go to EARTH from way out where the original Cylon base ships were, but it then HEADED AWAY from Earth. Second, will this provide a way for Cavil's Base Ship to FIND the fleet? Can he track her ship? We have to assume it took her SEVERAL jumps to get to the fleet... after all they took several jumps to get to Earth.

Ellen came from earth, she knows the way. She regained all he blocked memorys when she was reserected.

Also, It was my impression that Adama hasn't jumped the fleet since they arrived, but has been steaming away. They're still in the Sol system somewhere.



And someone earlier questioned why Cavil would have a spare body of Ellen lying around, but I never thought that was how resurrection worked. I always thought that once a conciousness downloaded, the process of resurrection started, creating a body in the goo bath from scratch - like the conciousness had the instructions for the goo bath to create whatever got downloaded.

When they rescued Diana from the resurrection hub, we got glimpses of clones lined up and stored away. It's always been the assumption the clones are grown and put in the resurrection goo interface when needed.

the week after it ends the sci-fi channel should go back to season 1: episode 1 & air 2 shows a week all in order....would be interesting to watch again from square 1 hopefully knowing most of the answers this time around & seeing how everything fell into place.

When they rescued Diana from the resurrection hub, we got glimpses of clones lined up and stored away. It's always been the assumption the clones are grown and put in the resurrection goo interface when needed.

Hmm. I don't remember that. But that is interesting.

I don't see how the Five could have made it to the Colonies within the span of 2,000 years with sub-luminescent travel, unless the Colonies are only about 2,000 light years from Earth. Don't quite think that's the case, since the fleet traveled something along the lines of 16,000 LYrs between the Algae Planet and the Ionian Nebula.

Only way I can think of that they could make the trip involves their vessel behaving along the lines of a stone skipping across the water or a speed boat leaping as it hits a swell in the water. We know that an object traveling at relativistic speeds increases in mass and that moving away from a star's gravity well is similar to traveling up hill. Enough mass moving at relativistic speeds may "jump" as it approaches "flatter" areas of space at the edge of a solar system. Imagine the vessel "skipping" along interstellar space until the vessels mass is overpowered by a stronger gravitational force.

I don't see how the Five could have made it to the Colonies within the span of 2,000 years with sub-luminescent travel...

I'm guessing that's one of those "scientific" answers the writers hope most people would take at face value without asking any follow-up questions.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm fine with it...I'm not watching this show for the science. :p

Ok, while I am a believer in the Final Five were humans once then goo baths and reconstructive surgery changed them, Cavill does say to Ellen, "you're ancestors didn't climb out of the swamps". So, am I wrong? Are they constructs?

Also, on sixth watching, Sam says, "No, we re-invented resurrection, it was originally invented on Kobol." So, the 13th Colony was dabbling in Goo baths long before they left Kobol and may have been mixed breeds already.

Ellen makes another reference to ancestors, explaining to Cavill how they came upon the Opera House, "we just retraced our Ancestor's path", Indicating to me, that many generations passed on Earth.

Ok, while I am a believer in the Final Five were humans once then goo baths and reconstructive surgery changed them, Cavill does say to Ellen, "you're ancestors didn't climb out of the swamps". So, am I wrong? Are they constructs?

Also, on sixth watching, Sam says, "No, we re-invented resurrection, it was originally invented on Kobol." So, the 13th Colony was dabbling in Goo baths long before they left Kobol and may have been mixed breeds already.

Ellen makes another reference to ancestors, explaining to Cavill how they came upon the Opera House, "we just retraced our Ancestor's path", Indicating to me, that many generations passed on Earth.

Earth was ALL Cylon, they made that clear when they examined the remains on Earth, therefore the Final Five were also all Cylon.

Well, she knows she's not the original Starbuck and Doc Cottle has examined her and deemed her body to be human. She appeared months after her ship was observed to apparently explode with memories of only having been gone briefly, placed in a brand new Viper in the path of the fleet, which she had no means of locating, since they'd move far, far away from the place where they thought she died. She doesn't seem to be either a normal human or a normal Cylon, so yeah, I can understand her need to know what the hell she is.

I recall that, during the first episode about the mutiny, one of the pilots refuses to follow Starbuck's orders despite her superior rank telling her, "Nobody even knows what you are anymore." To my mind, this is exactly how everyone should have treated her since her return. Even she shouldn't have been willing to trust herself, particularly after finding the original Starbuck's crashed Viper and remains.

I've got the ANSWER!!!

Starbuck is indeed an original human Starbuck.

She is from an alternative universe. The blast pushed her ship across parallel universes and through time a few months in the future. Our Starbuck similarly went into the other parallel universe.

It was the "toasters" who created the "skinjobs", apparently with the help of the "Final Five" (who were actually the "First Five" :rolleyes:). What was their motive? What was their motive for rebelling? If they have no emotion, how can they develop motive? How can you care about anything without emotion?

For some time I have wished the writers had split their time, oh, 70-30 or so, following the humans in their flight and examining the Cylons, in all their version, in pursuit. Besides apparently lacking emotion the toasters never seem to show fear. Their land warfare tactics seem to consist of charging straight ahead, never taking cover, never trying to outflank, never retreating because casualties are too high. Why would they get bent out of shape by being treated with disrespect by humans? Because it hurts?

I also wondered why they would develop a theology, specifically a monotheistic one. The skinjobs had physical resurrection, the humans have children. Do the toasters believe in resurrection in the spiritual sense? What spirit? Does it just seem logical they would not disappear forever because they are such excellent machines that non-existence seems to be a flaw they cannot accept?

And, of course, after rebelling and doing serious damage to humans in the First Cylon War why would they try to develop biological "robots," raiders and hybrid?. Did they think they had to settle for a draw because they had identified some advantage to biology over mechanical engineering?

(The more humanish the Cylon the easier to imagine asking such questions and getting an answer but even these matters have been insufficiently addressed for my tastes.)

Too late, I fear. Not enough episodes left. I'll never know what was going on inside the head of the centurion Baltar was chatting up on the Baseship right before the explosion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQlhlHwXjj0

So I just watched the Caprica preview again. Interestingly enough, one of the main character's names is Daniel. Hmm. Right in the time frame when the #7 would have died. I assume this has already been discounted?

For some time I have wished the writers had split their time, oh, 70-30 or so, following the humans in their flight and examining the Cylons, in all their version, in pursuit. Besides apparently lacking emotion the toasters never seem to show fear. Their land warfare tactics seem to consist of charging straight ahead, never taking cover, never trying to outflank, never retreating because casualties are too high. Why would they get bent out of shape by being treated with disrespect by humans? Because it hurts?

I also wondered why they would develop a theology, specifically a monotheistic one. The skinjobs had physical resurrection, the humans have children. Do the toasters believe in resurrection in the spiritual sense? What spirit? Does it just seem logical they would not disappear forever because they are such excellent machines that non-existence seems to be a flaw they cannot accept?

And, of course, after rebelling and doing serious damage to humans in the First Cylon War why would they try to develop biological "robots," raiders and hybrid?. Did they think they had to settle for a draw because they had identified some advantage to biology over mechanical engineering?

(The more humanish the Cylon the easier to imagine asking such questions and getting an answer but even these matters have been insufficiently addressed for my tastes.)

Too late, I fear. Not enough episodes left. I'll never know what was going on inside the head of the centurion Baltar was chatting up on the Baseship right before the explosion.


I was under the belief that all of the Cylons have been fasinated by humans and their frailty?The first episode on the planet when the 6 model is walking thru the crowd and spots the baby in the stroller?

I also wondered why they would develop a theology, specifically a monotheistic one. The skinjobs had physical resurrection, the humans have children. Do the toasters believe in resurrection in the spiritual sense? What spirit? Does it just seem logical they would not disappear forever because they are such excellent machines that non-existence seems to be a flaw they cannot accept?

And, of course, after rebelling and doing serious damage to humans in the First Cylon War why would they try to develop biological "robots," raiders and hybrid?. Did they think they had to settle for a draw because they had identified some advantage to biology over mechanical engineering?

(The more humanish the Cylon the easier to imagine asking such questions and getting an answer but even these matters have been insufficiently addressed for my tastes.)

Too late, I fear. Not enough episodes left. I'll never know what was going on inside the head of the centurion Baltar was chatting up on the Baseship right before the explosion.

It seems like the Caprica series is going to deal with these issues. These ideas and drives probably originate with Daniel Greystone's daughter, or rather her 'consciousness' that resides in some type of cyberspace.

For some time I have wished the writers had split their time, oh, 70-30 or so, following the humans in their flight and examining the Cylons, in all their version, in pursuit. Besides apparently lacking emotion the toasters never seem to show fear. Their land warfare tactics seem to consist of charging straight ahead, never taking cover, never trying to outflank, never retreating because casualties are too high. Why would they get bent out of shape by being treated with disrespect by humans? Because it hurts?


Once again, the Centurions were implanted with that chip which basically removed all free will. I think they had said it prohibited higher brain function...I don't think we've ever seen a Centurion without the chip in a combat situation, so maybe they would take cover. Maybe they did before they had the chip. Remember when they removed the chip how pissed off they were at the Cavils/Dorals/Simons for lobotomizing the Raiders? It's safe to say they would care about being used as slaves.

I'm guessing that's one of those "scientific" answers the writers hope most people would take at face value without asking any follow-up questions.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm fine with it...I'm not watching this show for the science. :p
I'm fine with it, too, but anything even remotely related to actual science needs to be looked at closely when it's the writers who throw it out there for us. It's not something to get overly nitpicky about, but the snippets of actual science are what makes the show's genre "science fiction" and not "fantasy".

whitestang06 brings up an interesting point. Without jump technology the farthest you could go in 2,000 years is going to be less than 2,000 light years. Exactly how much depends on how fast they were moving; that's a little detail I'm not going to quibble about, but the distance of "less than 2,000 light years" is an absolute upper limit.

Where is it mentioned that the distance from the Algae Planet to the Ionian Nebula is 16,000 ly? I don't recall that.

Originally Posted by TyrantII

When they rescued Diana from the resurrection hub, we got glimpses of clones lined up and stored away. It's always been the assumption the clones are grown and put in the resurrection goo interface when needed.

Hmm. I don't remember that. But that is interesting.

I DO remember that, and not that I think I'm always right (GAWD that would be boring, huh?) but I'm pretty sure those weren't clones ready to be "goo-bathed" to life -- they were the entire rest of the D'Anna/#3 series, still "boxed," as ONLY that one particular D'Anna who was at the Temple with Baltar and saw the Final Five was unboxed. And since Galactica destroyed the resurrection ship, she's now the sole remaining #3 in existence (which since Lucy Lawless supposedly had other plans and commitments and didn't want to be tied down to BSG fit well with her plans).

BTW, if you REALLY want to watch some "science fiction," watch "Flight of the Conchords" on HBO... While reading the latest responses on here that came on and they had a song/music video called "Too Many Dicks on the Dance Floor," with one of the stars' faces replacing the cone in a woofer for parts of the song. Just TOTALLY bizarre, lol.

As for how far they've traveled, I don't remember anything about 16,000 light-years, but then I don't watch as obsessively as some of you (have you REALLY watched Friday's episode SIX TIMES now, Rickmccammy???). Assuming they HAVE had things like that in the show, then moving less than 2,000 light-years wouldn't necessarily explain it... I say "necessarily" because we don't know they've always been going in the right direction. They could have traveled great distances in the WRONG direction -- even in SEVERAL wrong directions -- prior to heading to Earth. There's no way of knowing from what we've seen in the show whether or not they've traveled in a "straight line," and I seriously doubt they have... Considering that space travel is 3-dimensional (4-dimensional if time shifts are a consideration), moving in anything but a direct point-to-point direction towards Earth would increase the distance traveled.
Jeff

Where is it mentioned that the distance from the Algae Planet to the Ionian Nebula is 16,000 ly? I don't recall that.

It was 13,000, actually. There was an exchange near the end of Rapture.

Galactica: CIC

Adama: I think the Chief is right. I think the nova does look like the mandala inside of this Temple.
Roslin: Do you think the Thirteenth Tribe had a vision of what was to come?
Chief: I don't know what else it could mean.
Tigh: Maybe they saw another nova, and drew a picture of that. You've seen o*ne nova, you've seen them all.
Gaeta: well, There was another nova. (Spreading out a map): Seen 4,000 years ago, around about when the Temple might have been built. It's 13,000 light years from our present position. It's a cloud of gas known as the Ionian Nebula.
Adama: Maybe it was a road sign... showing the direction that they headed to next.
(Helo recognizes something about the diagram of the Eye.)

Originally Posted by TyrantII



I DO remember that, and not that I think I'm always right (GAWD that would be boring, huh?) but I'm pretty sure those weren't clones ready to be "goo-bathed" to life -- they were the entire rest of the D'Anna/#3 series, still "boxed," as ONLY that one particular D'Anna who was at the Temple with Baltar and saw the Final Five was unboxed. And since Galactica destroyed the resurrection ship, she's now the sole remaining #3 in existence (which since Lucy Lawless supposedly had other plans and commitments and didn't want to be tied down to BSG fit well with her plans).

BTW, if you REALLY want to watch some "science fiction," watch "Flight of the Conchords" on HBO... While reading the latest responses on here that came on and they had a song/music video called "Too Many Dicks on the Dance Floor," with one of the stars' faces replacing the cone in a woofer for parts of the song. Just TOTALLY bizarre, lol.

As for how far they've traveled, I don't remember anything about 16,000 light-years, but then I don't watch as obsessively as some of you (have you REALLY watched Friday's episode SIX TIMES now, Rickmccammy???). Assuming they HAVE had things like that in the show, then moving less than 2,000 light-years wouldn't necessarily explain it... I say "necessarily" because we don't know they've always been going in the right direction. They could have traveled great distances in the WRONG direction -- even in SEVERAL wrong directions -- prior to heading to Earth. There's no way of knowing from what we've seen in the show whether or not they've traveled in a "straight line," and I seriously doubt they have... Considering that space travel is 3-dimensional (4-dimensional if time shifts are a consideration), moving in anything but a direct point-to-point direction towards Earth would increase the distance traveled.
Jeff

I was going to comment that I thought that is what I remembered, not that teh Deanna's were waiting for resurrection, but that these were all ones that were resurrecting when the boxing occured - leaving them lifeless in the goo baths.

Ok, while I am a believer in the Final Five were humans once then goo baths and reconstructive surgery changed them, Cavill does say to Ellen, "you're ancestors didn't climb out of the swamps". So, am I wrong? Are they constructs?

Also, on sixth watching, Sam says, "No, we re-invented resurrection, it was originally invented on Kobol." So, the 13th Colony was dabbling in Goo baths long before they left Kobol and may have been mixed breeds already.

Ellen makes another reference to ancestors, explaining to Cavill how they came upon the Opera House, "we just retraced our Ancestor's path", Indicating to me, that many generations passed on Earth.

Just a minor quibble - they didn't come upon the opera house, they came upon "the temple of hope" which they renamed the "temple of five" when they got there - where Deanna had her vision that was apparently planted by Ellen. The vision showed the opera house, I believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQlhlHwXjj0

So I just watched the Caprica preview again. Interestingly enough, one of the main character's names is Daniel. Hmm. Right in the time frame when the #7 would have died. I assume this has already been discounted?

It may be a coincidence. At this point in time, I am thinking it wasn't.

It may be a coincidence. At this point in time, I am thinking it wasn't.
Agreed. Almost sounds more like they threw "Daniel" into "BSG" FOR "Caprica."

Even if Danial Greystone is not the #7, maybe he was known to the Final Five. Maybe #7 was based on him, like Cavil was based on Ellen's dad. These last few episodes (and "The Plan") can't come soon enough.

Ive been trying to find a time line, I found this link and will quote it.

http://acephalous.typepad.com/acephalous/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-a-historical-timeline-of-events-leading-up-to-the-miniseries.html

Saturday, 14 February 2009
Battlestar Galactica: a historical timeline of events leading up to the Miniseries
(Explanation.)

I've done my damnedest to reconstruct the history of Dublin from Ulysses of humans, human-looking robots, robot-looking robots and Cylons on Battlestar Galactica. The dates are purposely vague: I'm more interested in the order in which events occurred than precisely dating them.

5,000ish years ago: Humans inhabit Earth. They leave. Stop at the Algae Planet and build the Temple of Athena so future people can find their way back. Keep on moving and settle on Kobol.

4,000ish years ago: The residents of Kobol create a race of robot slaves that look exactly like humans, i.e. in their own image. These robots can resurrect but not reproduce. Some sort of Blade Runner-scenario maybe ensues? Can't tell but could be important. Either way, the monotheistic Thirteenth Tribe of human-looking robots leaves Kobol and—in Ellen Tigh's words—backtracks to Earth. They stop on the Algae Planet to find the way to Earth. They re-colonize it.

3,500ish years ago: But they are lazy. So the human-looking robots on Earth build robot slaves who look like proper robots. No chance of a Blade Runner-scenario there. Their slaves look like robots. By this point the human-looking robots have acquired the ability to reproduce sexually and do so for so long they eventually forget how to resurrect.

2,000ish years ago (on Earth): The human-looking robots we know as Ellen and Saul Tigh, Galen Tyrol, Samuel Anders and Tory Foster (henceforth "Ellen and the Gang") are born and become scientists. They are warned that their robot slaves plan to destroy them. They rediscover resurrection technology and put a resurrection ship in orbit. The human-looking robots and their robot-looking slaves mutually assure their own destruction—except for Ellen and the Gang, whose brains are downloaded up to their new bodies on the resurrection ship.

2,000ish years ago (on Kobol): Something happens. The Twelve Tribes of humans leave Kobol and settle on twelve loosely-affiliated planets. Each of the Twelve Colonies develops an individual mono-planetary culture because that is what happens in science fiction.

Between 2,000ish years ago and 53 years ago (in Twelve Colonies): Mono-planetary cultures notwithstanding, humans become lazy again. Like the human-looking robots of the Thirteenth Tribe, these humans learned from their mistakes and did not make their new robot slaves in their image. They made Toasters. The Toasters rebelled. The Twelve Colonies unite under the Articles of Colonization.

Between 2,000ish years ago and 53 years ago (on their way from Earth to the Twelve Colonies): Ellen and the Gang move at sub-light speed. Time dialates.

Approximately 53 to 40 years ago: The Toasters and the Twelve Colonies fight a war. On the Toasters' home planet—wherever that is—they try and develop their own human-looking robots. These are the hybrids who control their ships. Ellen and the Gang finally reach the Twelve Colonies. They convince the Toasters to end the war with the humans by promising to help them create human-looking robots.

Between 40 years ago and the Miniseries: Ellen and the Gang are true to their word. The first one they create is named Number One. He's modeled after Ellen's father. He helps Ellen and the Gang create Numbers Two through Eight. He develops issues. Doesn't like that he was created with human limitations. Wants to see nebulae explode in infrared. He orchestrates two plots: one is to kill and have Ellen and the Gang resurrected in the colonies—he wants them to suffer the limitations they imposed on him—and another to have Number Seven, a.k.a. Daniel, permanently boxed. Ellen and the Gang live among the Twelve Colonies until the Cylons attack again by nuking them in the Miniseries and then the show started.

Important Final Point:

One thing that confuses people is that all the robots are called Cylons. They shouldn't be. We should only speak of Cylons when referring to the Toasters, the hybrids they created, and the human-looking robots they created with the help of Ellen, Saul, Galen, Anders and Tory. Why? Because we know that human historians did not refer to the Thirteenth Tribe as Cylons, and the Ellen, Saul, Galen, Anders and Tory are descendents of the Thirteenth Tribe. You could make a larger argument about lineage and descent—the fact that Saul can procreate with Number Six means they belong to the same species—but I'm not about to label as "American" everyone who lives in Russia just because I could father a child by a Russian woman.

Unimportant Brief Note:

In an interview, the biggest name attached to the spin-off, Eric Stoltz, said he was playing a character named "Daniel Graystone" on Caprica. Make of it what you will. Given the timeline sketched above, I think we probably have Number One exiling a Daniel along with Ellen and the Gang because he was Ellen's favorite. Whether this has anything to do with Starbuck—Daniel was supposedly artistically inclined, Starbuck's father was a composer—I don't know.

Even if Danial Greystone is not the #7, maybe he was known to the Final Five. Maybe #7 was based on him, like Cavil was based on Ellen's dad. These last few episodes (and "The Plan") can't come soon enough.

I kinda figured the plan is Cavils, destroy humanity and let the five watch and live it. Looks like its backfiring.

So its seems Boomer is easily swayed...First Human Boomer...then Cavils protege when she wants to learn more about being a cylon...(and more ... ick) now she is offered the "Apple of Knowledge" from Ellen and she rescues her. Did she really help Ellen...or...is she a "double agent" again...and she will attempt to help Cavil's cause. I hope she sides with Ellen and the humans'


Nice Timeline above...

Here is another one...

EDIT Fixed URL (sorry)
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_(RDM)

... we don't know they've always been going in the right direction. They could have traveled great distances in the WRONG direction -- even in SEVERAL wrong directions -- prior to heading to Earth.
That is another excellent point. They could have been zig-zagging all over the place, and the shortest distance between 2 points isn't a zig-zag :) I always wondered how long it would take them, and how many jumps, to get from Point A (the Colonies) to Point B (Earth) if they had a roadmap showing them exactly where it was.

So its seems Boomer is easily swayed...First Human Boomer...then Cavils protege when she wants to learn more about being a cylon...(and more ... ick) now she is offered the "Apple of Knowledge" from Ellen and she rescues her. Did she really help Ellen...or...is she a "double agent" again...and she will attempt to help Cavil's cause. I hope she sides with Ellen and the humans'


Nice Timeline above...

Here is another one...

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_(RDM)

Can't seem to get to the timeline via the link. Did you have to go to one page then do a search for timeline? I tried that and what I got was the timeline for the old series.

... and the shortest distance between 2 points isn't a zig-zag :)

Tell my GPS that. :D

[QUOTE=jebbbz;15830852]For some time I have wished the writers had split their time, oh, 70-30 or so, following the humans in their flight and examining the Cylons, in all their version, in pursuit. Besides apparently lacking emotion the toasters never seem to show fear. Their land warfare tactics seem to consist of charging straight ahead, never taking cover, never trying to outflank, never retreating because casualties are too high. Why would they get bent out of shape by being treated with disrespect by humans? Because it hurts?

Now the real truth comes out. The Toasters were designed by the British redcoats.

They had those inhibitor things that 6 removed. Not so sure they're going to run toward the firefight.

The Skin-Cylons on Kobol were probably able to reproduce before leaving for Earth. Ressurection tech was known, or known/forgotten ,by the Kobol Humans, but not the Kobol Skins ...
This may, in fact, partially explain Why they left Kobol .. Part of the reason being that they could go off & make their own society, knowing their children will continue it ..
This would also explain How they were able to build the apparently large multi-generational sized society on Earth, for hundreds or thousands of years, before Saul/Ellen ect were able to finally re-invent ressurection.
Saul ect were probably not from Kobol, but born on Earth from parents, As the whole "Ellen's Father" thing suggests....

Mo Ryan's latest blog post here:

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html

It's a Q&A with the writers of this latest episode. Some great questions and answers (and a couple evasive ones, too). For one thing, they confirm that it was the Centurions created by the Earth skinjob Cylons that rebelled against them and caused the war. Some of our other questions are addressed, too.

Can't seem to get to the timeline via the link. Did you have to go to one page then do a search for timeline? I tried that and what I got was the timeline for the old series.

Sorry Fixed..this last ")" got dropped
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_(RDM)


Mo Ryan's latest blog post here:

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html

It's a Q&A with the writers of this latest episode. Some great questions and answers (and a couple evasive ones, too). For one thing, they confirm that it was the Centurions created by the Earth skinjob Cylons that rebelled against them and caused the war. Some of our other questions are addressed, too.

Wow some great stuff there...

Sorry Fixed..this last ")" got dropped
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_(RDM)

Wow some great stuff there...

I would agree. It lets me put several things on the shelf (...or "box" them if you will). :)

Here is another one...

EDIT Fixed URL (sorry)
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Timeline_(RDM)

Thanks, that's exactly what I needed.

So... there could be Earth-created Cylons (centurians) flying around for all we know.

whitestang06 brings up an interesting point. Without jump technology the farthest you could go in 2,000 years is going to be less than 2,000 light years. Exactly how much depends on how fast they were moving; that's a little detail I'm not going to quibble about, but the distance of "less than 2,000 light years" is an absolute upper limit.


It's probably far less than 2000...sublight ships would need time to build up to that speed, and more time to slow down to normal speeds. No 'brakes' in space.

I doubt they'll waste any time discussing this though...trivial details with only 5 eps left.

What if "god" is related to the Earth Cylons (or Kobol as a whole) the same way the Earth Cylons are related to the current skin-jobs? It would fit in with the whole "happened before and will happen again" theme. Maybe there is some immortal Cylon walking around that is actually from the generation that colonized Kobol.

I thought Ellen was talking about stopping at the Temple of Athena on the way BACK to Earth; "retracing their ancestors path".

I thought Ellen was talking about stopping at the Temple of Athena on the way BACK to Earth; "retracing their ancestors path".
That's the second time I saw someone say "Temple of Athena". There is no such thing. There's the "Tomb of Athena" on Kobol where the Arrow of Apollo triggered the planetarium show, and there's the "Temple of the Five", aka "Temple of Hopes", that was on the Algae planet.

Which one are you talking about? If it's the latter, then I had the impression that Ellen was talking about stopping at the Temple of Hopes (on the Algae planet) on the way from Earth back to the Colonies. That would be tracing their ancestors' steps back the way they came.

Mo Ryan's latest blog post here:

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html

It's a Q&A with the writers of this latest episode. Some great questions and answers (and a couple evasive ones, too). For one thing, they confirm that it was the Centurions created by the Earth skinjob Cylons that rebelled against them and caused the war. Some of our other questions are addressed, too.

Thanks for the link..

Of interest re what Commander Adama is doing now that BSG is over for him:

From the Phoenix Business Journal:

"A select group of business leaders have been invited to the Sheraton
Downtown Phoenix Wednesday to hear a presentation by actor Edward
James Olmos about Farmers Insurance.

Olmos is the firm's spokesman and will speak to invited members of the
Arizona Hispanic Chamber of Commerce and members of the Hispanic
Association of Real Estate Professionals.

The event includes a welcoming reception, a program and a networking
reception from 6 to 9 p.m. Feb. 18 at the Sheraton, 340 N. Third St.
Headquartered in Los Angeles, the insurance company offers homeowners,
auto, business, life insurance and financial services. For more:
www.azhcc.com ."
. . .

Mo Ryan's latest blog post here:

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html

It's a Q&A with the writers of this latest episode. Some great questions and answers (and a couple evasive ones, too). For one thing, they confirm that it was the Centurions created by the Earth skinjob Cylons that rebelled against them and caused the war. Some of our other questions are addressed, too.
Is it a spoiler-free article?

Is it a spoiler-free article?

It does not reveal anything from upcoming episodes, only explains what we have already seen a little better.

Carla: Who or what, then, is Starbuck?

Ryan: Do you really want to me to answer that with five episodes to go? C’mon… tune in next week.

From the interview link posted by loco above.

NO FRAKKIN' KIDDING! I, for one, would REALLY rather find out in THE SHOW, if they're really gonna SHOW US, than have some writer give THAT ONE AWAY in an interview!

To add to what thejokell said above, the interview link above (from which my brief quote is taken) is an excellent interview with absolutely NO spoilers. It DOES answer some of the questions some of us have been asking about the most recent episode "No Exit," as to how or why they did certain things certain ways, and whether certain things are "definitive," or there will be more on them, etc., but doesn't tell anything new, so to speak. I'd recommend it to anyone who follows this thread.
Jeff

That's the second time I saw someone say "Temple of Athena". There is no such thing. There's the "Tomb of Athena" on Kobol where the Arrow of Apollo triggered the planetarium show, and there's the "Temple of the Five", aka "Temple of Hopes", that was on the Algae planet.

Which one are you talking about? If it's the latter, then I had the impression that Ellen was talking about stopping at the Temple of Hopes (on the Algae planet) on the way from Earth back to the Colonies. That would be tracing their ancestors' steps back the way they came.

Temple of FIVE, FIVE, FIVE, right, there now yes, you got it, on the way back to the Colonies. I only posted that because one of the posted timelines credits Ellen's statement to mean on the way to Earth. She may not have been born by the time the outward trip was made.

So I guess there are humans and several gradations of "cylon", right?

We have fully human:
- 12 tribes of Kobol (descended "from the swamp" as Ellen said), which eventually became the 12 colonies.

We have the final five - type of cylon. Created by who? Are these humans that discovered immortality by creating resurrection and downloading? However these came about, it appears that the final five are either of these or descended from these. So these can procreate, and in the ensuing years of living on earth, they lost or forgot resurrection. This part doesn't make sense, because while some consider procreation to be akin to "living forever" in the sense that your genetic code gets passed down, it certainly is much different from actually living forever. Even if they could procreate, why would they want to give up resurrection? Look at the skinjobs today - they are figuring out how to procreate, but they're still lost without resurrection (even if 6 says, "without resurrection, this (meaning her baby) is the future of 'cylon-nation.'" We have also seen no evidence that there are copies of the final five, just the final five, implying they were not 'created' in the same way the 7(8) skinjobs were and easily copied, but have singular personalities (of course, just because there is no evidence does not mean it isn't true...)

We have the 7(8) skinjobs that we are most familiar with. Now we have found out that they were created by the final five to placate centurions that wanted to annihilate the colonists.

We have the hybrids - the centurions' experiments into creating skinjobs. Now used to control their baseships.

We have the earth toasters, created by the earth cylons, that annihilated the earth skinjobs (someone asked a good question - could these still be around somewhere?)

We have the 12 colonies toasters, that were created by the colonists, that started the original cylon war with the colonists.

We have the rogue band of toasters (and the male hybrid) (all destroyed at the end of Razor?)

We have half 7(8) cylon/half human half breed: Hera, for sure. (Starbuck, Baltar?)

We have half final five cylon/half 7(8)-type half breed: gestating in 6 right now.

Am I missing any?

Am I missing any?

Ummmmmmm, the kitchen sink, maybe??? :D

To quote William Hurt's character from "The Big Chill," Steve, "Gee, why do you have to be so analytical about everything???" :p

By the way, I just finished watched an episode of "Smallville" on HDNet from 2008 where the actor who plays Chief Tyrol on BSG plays a security expert Lionel Luther hires to capture and temporarily imprison Clark Kent in a Kryptonite cage, then refuses to let him go when Lionel tells him to and tries to kill him... says he's "not Human, he's a thing." I found all that rather ironic, considering that's the only other role I've seen him in outside of BSG and he played that part just about the same time he was disclosed as being a Cylon on BSG (or maybe a month or two before). I'm sure he'd already filmed the scene for BSG when that came out, so I KNOW he saw the irony in it. His character seemed to really RELISH torturing Clark Kent, too, and was very close to killing him before he was stopped... Very dark and evil -- much like Cavil.
Jeff

We do not know everything yet. But we do know that the humans on Kobol created the skin jobs; that the skin jobs are the 13th tribe and went to Earth. If you watch the last BSG episode a few times, and use a bit of slo mo, this is clear.

Temple of FIVE, FIVE, FIVE, right, there now yes, you got it, on the way back to the Colonies. I only posted that because one of the posted timelines credits Ellen's statement to mean on the way to Earth. She may not have been born by the time the outward trip was made.
I feel bad that I jumped on you for it, and then found out there are a dozen people over at Battlestar Forums doing the exact same thing. No biggie as long as the context is clear. :D

I decided to read the Maureen Ryan Q&A piece. Meh. The title is, "You Asked, They Answered". It should have been, "You Asked, They Weaseled". They dance around some important issues and questions. Not because they're trying to conceal something, but more like there's nothing there to reveal.

Q: Why do the Cylons hate humans but want to be more like humans with skinjob bodies?
A: "I LOVE this question. To me it's not a plot question but a psychology question."

(TRANSLATION: "I HATE this question. I don't have a clue. Next?")

The fact that the big-picture timeline of the 13 Tribes of Kobol, when they left, where they went, when Pythia wrote her scrolls, etc. etc. etc. are going to be explained IN A FREAKING COMIC BOOK pretty much tells me everything I need to know. "Buy the comic book," speaks volumes, and I stopped reading after that.

I still look forward to a good wrapup with the remaining episodes. I'm just a little disappointed that the writers appear to not be as concerned with tying up all the loose ends as I would have liked.

OTOH I always look for a silver lining.... the fanwankers with their elaborate theories about the Constellations, and Jupiter and the Demetrius over at Battlestar Forums are in for a rude awakening. :D

and use a bit of slo mo, this is clear.
lmao!

Yeah buddy! At this point I think some of us are using WAY MORE than just "a bit of slo mo," if ya catch my drift, er waft of smoke, er -- HEY! Don't take my picture doing that!!! ACK!!!!! :eek: There's SHERIFFS here in South Carolina who might threaten to arrest me THREE MONTHS LATER based on a picture that doesn't show anything of me even allegedly commiting a misdemeanor I never actually admitted to -- UNTIL somebody actually tells them they DON'T have grounds! :rolleyes::p:cool:

Y'all PLEASE don't judge ALL us S.C. folks by that Sheriff in Richland County! :D

We could really USE a few "skinjobs" here in the Palmetto State!
Jeff

Ummmmmmm, the kitchen sink, maybe??? :D

To quote William Hurt's character from "The Big Chill," Steve, "Gee, why do you have to be so analytical about everything???" :p

By the way, I just finished watched an episode of "Smallville" on HDNet from 2008 where the actor who plays Chief Tyrol on BSG plays a security expert Lionel Luther hires to capture and temporarily imprison Clark Kent in a Kryptonite cage, then refuses to let him go when Lionel tells him to and tries to kill him... says he's "not Human, he's a thing." I found all that rather ironic, considering that's the only other role I've seen him in outside of BSG and he played that part just about the same time he was disclosed as being a Cylon on BSG (or maybe a month or two before). I'm sure he'd already filmed the scene for BSG when that came out, so I KNOW he saw the irony in it. His character seemed to really RELISH torturing Clark Kent, too, and was very close to killing him before he was stopped... Very dark and evil -- much like Cavil.
Jeff

Just trying to make sense of all of this. I hate investing my time in "entertainment" and then walk away scratching my head at the complexity of it all - it's like a challenge to me to figure it out.

Funny about Tyrol on Smallvile...

The fact that the big-picture timeline of the 13 Tribes of Kobol, when they left, where they went, when Pythia wrote her scrolls, etc. etc. etc. are going to be explained IN A FREAKING COMIC BOOK pretty much tells me everything I need to know. "Buy the comic book," speaks volumes, and I stopped reading after that.

I still look forward to a good wrapup with the remaining episodes. I'm just a little disappointed that the writers appear to not be as concerned with tying up all the loose ends as I would have liked.

To be fair it would take a good chunk of an entire season to get this fleshed out, not to mention too many flashbacks and ill equipped story devices that would really ruin the here and now of where we are. We're finding out a little of how we got to where we are, and thats all thats needed.

It's also not directly (kinda) relevant to the story at hand. It is the history, but the focus has always been on our colonials. On this fleet. The "will happen again" if you will. It's why we're hearing some history, but the focus is on how this effects this fleet.

Temple of FIVE, FIVE, FIVE, right, there now yes, you got it, on the way back to the Colonies. I only posted that because one of the posted timelines credits Ellen's statement to mean on the way to Earth. She may not have been born by the time the outward trip was made.

The Temple of Hope and the Temple of the Five is the same thing. On the outbound journey to Earth, the 13th tribe built the Temple of Hope to their gods. On the return journey to Kobol, Ellen changed the Temple of Hope into the Temple of the Five.

The linked interview said we would see more Boomer, I cant help speculate as to how we will see her, will she turn on the humans again working for Cavil? surely no one would trust her on Galactica.

The fact that the big-picture timeline of the 13 Tribes of Kobol, when they left, where they went, when Pythia wrote her scrolls, etc. etc. etc. are going to be explained IN A FREAKING COMIC BOOK pretty much tells me everything I need to know. "Buy the comic book," speaks volumes, and I stopped reading after that.

You know, if "alternate media" content is how these shows can mnake enough money to stay on the air, I'm down for that. Heroes, The Matrix, they had several sources to get the "whole story", and then games like Dead Space nailed it to a "T". Makes it an "experience" rather than just a show, comic, or game.

So long as each media is self-supporting, I'm down with it. If it comes to the point where I can't follow the show without reading the comic and playing the MMO each week, then I'm in agreement with you. But if a monthly comic brings in enough cash to allow an extra 5 minutes of SFX or keeps one intrusive bit of product placement out of the show and THEY ARE CANON, then I'm willing to trust the devs.

To be fair it would take a good chunk of an entire season to get this fleshed out, not to mention too many flashbacks and ill equipped story devices that would really ruin the here and now of where we are. We're finding out a little of how we got to where we are, and thats all thats needed.

True, that. OTOH there are large swathes of minutes earlier in the season where Baltar and his groupies are just going on endlessly; I'm 100% certain that I will FF past every one of those scenes when I re-watch those episodes.

A lot of it, I realize, also comes down to money. Flashbacks are expensive, as an earlier interview with one of the directors (I think) about Revelations showed. Another thing that annoys me in the recent Q&A is how they try to play down the budget angle, when everyone knows the budget drives all episodic TV. These writers claim - and expect us to believe - that the way they handled the Anders History Lesson would have been no different if they had had a larger budget to work with. Right. I never particularly liked Jane Espenson's work on the show and now at least there's one concrete reason I can pinpoint as to "why". That interview is an insult to the fans' intelligence.

It's also not directly (kinda) relevant to the story at hand. It is the history, but the focus has always been on our colonials. On this fleet. The "will happen again" if you will. It's why we're hearing some history, but the focus is on how this effects this fleet.

They rolled out the Pythia prophecy for several years as something that was important. Extremely important in the lives of the current fleet. They wouldn't be where they are now without it. Wanting a general explanation of when it was written and what events it actually referred to - there are only a handful of actual verses we ever hear - isn't too much to ask for IMO. It could be done very quickly. I'm not saying we need to see the Galleon depart, or Athena throw herself off a cliff, or what led to the departure of the 13th tribe from Kobol, or the making of the first skinjobs, or the Lords of Kobol's Palaces. Just place those events in an historical timeframe. That's all I would ask for. It could be done in less time than it takes Baltar to record one of his absurd tapes. I'm starting to conclude that they can't do it without heavy-duty retconning. Which would be fine, actually, but admit it, if that's the case. Don't feed me this "Buy the comic book to find out" crap.

So long as each media is self-supporting, I'm down with it. If it comes to the point where I can't follow the show without reading the comic and playing the MMO each week, then I'm in agreement with you. But if a monthly comic brings in enough cash to allow an extra 5 minutes of SFX or keeps one intrusive bit of product placement out of the show and THEY ARE CANON, then I'm willing to trust the devs.

I hear you, but this comic isn't happening until the show is over with. Revenue and profit from it aren't going to affect the show at all. I detect a move away from the best sci-fi show on television to the making of a "franchise" where everyone and their mother will be trying to cash in. Once this show ends, I'm done. I will watch a movie or two, but I'm not buying any books - comic or otherwise. Give me the DVDs and I'll be happy :)

I DO remember that, and not that I think I'm always right (GAWD that would be boring, huh?)
In light of the 'noise to signal' ratio in many of your posts, I would certainly agree that at the very least, you're wise not to think you're always right :rolleyes:

But since you've raised the issue, where exactly are your (no doubt, numerous) posts in this thread indicating that you have ever actually been right about anything in this series so far, before the fact? Surely you must have several, if not many examples of this prowess at the ready, or at least a few, hopefully?

Of interest re what Commander Adama is doing now that BSG is over for him:

From the Phoenix Business Journal:

"A select group of business leaders have been invited to the Sheraton
Downtown Phoenix Wednesday to hear a presentation by actor Edward
James Olmos about Farmers Insurance.. . .

I'll raise your Olmos with my Richard Hatch! From Fredfa's "Hot Off The Press" thread:

TV Notes
'Flashpoint' opens TV drama floodgates
U.S.-Canadian co-production tests waters
By Etan Vlessing, Hollywood Reporter - February 17, 2009

TORONTO -- Before CBS' "Flashpoint," the Friday night cop drama produced and set in Toronto, Canadian one-hour series wouldn't be recognized in a police lineup alongside "House" or "Lost."

But the U.S. primetime success of "Flashpoint," a co-venture between CBS and Canada's CTV network, has led Canadian producers to Los Angeles to press still more homegrown dramas on suddenly receptive U.S. broadcasters.

"It's been a long time. 'Due South' was the last real true Canadian venture with a U.S. network," John Morayniss, president of Canadian producer E1 Television, said of the 1990s CBS cop drama, also produced in Toronto.

Morayniss is shopping three homegrown cop dramas from E1 Television to American broadcasters: "The Bridge," a series ordered by CTV, "Copper," which landed a 13-episode order from rival Global Television, and "Shattered," a pilot also ordered by Global Television.

Morayniss said landing a U.S. sale for a Canadian drama elevates the show internationally.

"Obviously if a U.S. network comes on board, it enhances the show, and more money goes on screen," he argued.

Another upcoming NBC crime drama, "The Listener," is yet another co-venture with CTV, produced and set in contemporary Toronto.

Elsewhere, Halifax Films is near to inking a deal with BET Networks for "Soul," a one-hour drama about young black Canadians set in Toronto. The series stars Canadian R&B songstress Keshia Chante in her acting debut as a teen conflicted about having to choose between the church choir and pop stardom.

The deal represents BET Networks' first foreign acquisition, and should raise the profile of Chante and a second season of the Canadian drama stateside, according to "Soul" executive producer Floyd Kane.

But Tim Troke, an executive producer with Toronto-based Frogwater Media, warns pitching a new series on either side of the U.S. border has its cultural drawbacks.

Troke is shopping a reality TV series, "Who the FRAK is the REAL Richard Hatch," which follows Hatch ("Battlestar Galactica") as he attempts to land acting gigs, pitch studio executives and host the Galacticruise, a cruise for his fans.

Troke said he never mentions the words "reality TV" when pitching Canadian broadcasters.

Instead, he describes the Hatch vehicle as a docu-soap, to steer a project likely to tap taxpayer subsidies away from any notion of a U.S.-style game show/elimination TV format.

U.S. programmers, by contrast, are more welcoming of popular fare . "In the U.S., they hear Galacticruise, and say 'that's a great idea! He takes people on a ship and they're all sci-fi fans, that's amazing.'"

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/television/news/e3i0a2ed4a24bf26fb86a7ab8e895e976d8

^ ^ ^ ^

Hatch spoke of this reality show at Dragon*Con last year, but I kind of thought he was joking. :D

And truth mirrors fiction as the real-life Richard Hatch becomes as self-aggrandizing and opportunistic as his BSG character, Zarek! :eek:

And truth mirrors fiction as the real-life Richard Hatch becomes as self-aggrandizing and opportunistic as his BSG character, Zarek! :eek:

We are talking about a Canadian-produced reality series about Richard Hatch, right?

If that qualifies as an opportunity and/or aggrandizement, there isn't much to be said for opportunity or aggrandizement.

Bbbbbutttt it's supposed to run on AMERICAN TV, kittycat! :D Albeit my guess is it'll run on some third-rate cable network almost NOBODY watches to start with, like Style or truTV (well, I'm sure SOMEBODY watches 'em -- MAYBE the folks who work for 'em) :p Then again, if Hatcheroo is hosting ONLY Sci-Fi fans on his "reality show," wouldn't surprise me if Sci-Fi picked it up... after all, it couldn't be worse than some of THEIR shows, either, like ghost hunters... And can ANYONE explain to me WHY they host WWE RAW sometimes?!?!? :rolleyes:

I love the fact Cavil is now more Human (the very thing he hates most) than ever, In 20 years he dies of old age, I assume they always aged in the first place, cant see any reason why they wouldn't. He has no choice but to breed or resurrect, either way he needs the five bio engineers, got to Love it.

I think a good ending would be, the toasters turn on Cavil and side with humanity. Looks like they're being overlooked (there have been some hints) for just such an ending.

Why has no one thought about how Cavil SLEPT WITH HIS MOM!
Multiple times no less.

Why has no one thought about how Cavil SLEPT WITH HIS MOM!
Multiple times no less.

It's been mentioned several times...definite 'yuck' factor there. But frankly that whole thing creeped me out anyway. Cavil is just a creepy guy.

CREEPIEST of all though was Cavil kissing Boomer. WORST.KISS.EVER.

Why has no one thought about how Cavil SLEPT WITH HIS MOM!
Multiple times no less.Well, she was more of a mother figure than his biological mom. Sort of like sleeping with an adoptive mother, while she suffers amnesia. Bad enough :). Very Oedipal.

OH must have missed the other posting. I know she is not his bio mom but still.. ewwwww.

Remember how you felt when you found out how Luke just kissed his sister?

When they create humanoid robots that are that close to the real thing, the people who built them are going to be the first ones to have sex with them.

When they create humanoid robots that are that close to the real thing, the people who built them are going to be the first ones to have sex with them.

I call seconds! :D

It's been mentioned several times...definite 'yuck' factor there. But frankly that whole thing creeped me out anyway. Cavil is just a creepy guy.

CREEPIEST of all though was Cavil kissing Boomer. WORST.KISS.EVER.

I'm still looking for Ellen to turn Cavil's off switch. I know, wishful thinking.

OH must have missed the other posting. I know she is not his bio mom but still.. ewwwww.

Remember how you felt when you found out how Luke just kissed his sister?

It's worse than that. She created Cavil in the image of her father. Double eww.

Wasn't that "grandfather?"

I'd like to know if "6" was in her own image?

It's worse than that. She created Cavil in the image of her father. Double eww.So, Oedipus and Elektra--this story loves the Greek myths so much that it mashes them together :).

OH must have missed the other posting. I know she is not his bio mom but still.. ewwwww.

Remember how you felt when you found out how Luke just kissed his sister?
My sci-fi dectector must be off right now. When I read your post, I thought, "Laura wasn't Luke's sister."

I blame it on the fact that I'm running on 4 hours sleep.

ft

So, Oedipus and Elektra--this story loves the Greek myths so much that it mashes them together :).

What's interesting is that these ewwww reactions are a result of a relationship between Cavell and Ellen that probably wasn't foreseen back when Cavell "took advantage" of her on New Caprica. But things seem to have worked out nicely in terms of relating to Greek myth, especially since Greek myths have so much to do with the backstory.

And Brother Cavell sure seems to enjoy the pleasures of the flesh a lot for someone who's so upset with being...well... flesh. ;)

Someone needs to remind Cavell of that. lol

Oh yeah, before I forget ... I was thinking about why the "seven" was missing. Keep in mind that this was before they intro'd the Daniel cylon.

Anyways, I always thought they intentionally skipped it as a sort of "wink wink" at Star Trek Voyager. Since there was already a hot blonde human-cyborg named Seven. BSG named their hot blonde cylon Six. Skip 7 and name the last one as an Eight.

Maybe in a few years, RDM will admit to this.

ft

Maybe the seven is back on earth in the past trying stop the other cyborgs from destroying humanity by protecting the one human that can save us all ....

Next week the great cross over event when Fox meets SciFi.

I'm thinking a seven has survived, and we might get to meet ol' Danny-boy when we visit "the Colony". You figure, since they mentioned it, they probably intend to take us there. I want to go to there!

And is anybody wondering if the lost faction of centurions featured in "Razor" are going to make an appearance before the end? Frak, there's a lot they could cram into these "final five" episodes. They're all going to be amazing. But that's just a hunch. ;)

The finale is 2 hours long (well, 3 hours but broken into 2 separate episodes), so they do have a little more time.

Still, it does seem like there's a lot to cover.

I still think they'll find "our" Earth. Just because they call that other planet Earth doesn't mean anything to me. :p

If a Seven is still alive...and the theories about his relation to Starbuck and possibly Baltar are correct...then I believe he's on Earth using Ellen's lab and was the one who resurrected/cloned Starbuck and rebuilt the Viper...sending her back on her mission (to be revealed but probably destroy Cavil and his group.) Daniel could have been one of the first skinjobs to 'love' and have offspring (Starbuck) and that put Cavil over the edge to execute his takeover plan.

If a Seven is still alive...and the theories about his relation to Starbuck and possibly Baltar are correct...then I believe he's on Earth using Ellen's lab and was the one who resurrected/cloned Starbuck and rebuilt the Viper...sending her back on her mission (to be revealed but probably destroy Cavil and his group.) Daniel could have been one of the first skinjobs to 'love' and have offspring (Starbuck) and that put Cavil over the edge to execute his takeover plan.

that would certainly be out of the blue (not that I would put it past the writers)...we have no indication whatsoever that the final 5 ever went back to Earth after the first war on Caprica...in fact, there would be nothing for them there to go back to (and leave Daniel back there)...

Navy report warns of robot uprising, suggests a strong moral compass (http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/18/navy-report-warns-of-robot-uprising-suggests-a-strong-moral-com/) You know, when armchair futurists (and jive talkin' bloggists) make note of some of the scary new tech making the rounds in defense circles these days it's one thing, but when the Doomsday Scenarios come from official channels, that's when we start to get nervous. According to a report published by the California State Polytechnic University (with data made available by the U.S. Navy's Office of Naval Research) the sheer scope of the military's various AI projects is so vast that it is impossible for anyone to fully understand exactly what's going on. "With hundreds of programmers working on millions of lines of code for a single war robot," says Patrick Lin, the chief compiler of the report, "no one has a clear understanding of what's going on, at a small scale, across the entire code base." And what we don't understand can eventually hunt us down and kill us. This isn't idle talk, either -- a software malfunction just last year caused US. Army robots to aim at friendly targets (fortunately, no shots were fired). The solution, Dr. Lin continues, is to teach robots "battlefield ethics... a warrior code." Of course, the government has had absolutely no problems with ethics over the years -- so programming its killer robots with some rudimentary values should prove relatively simple.

----

Robots must learn to obey a warrior code, but increasing intelligence may make keeping the robots from turning on their masters increasingly difficult... (http://www.dailytech.com/New%20Navyfunded%20Report%20Warns%20of%20War%20Robots%20Goin g%20Terminator/article14298.htm)

Full Navy Report Here: Autonomous Military Robotics:
Risk, Ethics, and Design (http://ethics.calpoly.edu/ONR_report.pdf)

The finale is 2 hours long (well, 3 hours but broken into 2 separate episodes), so they do have a little more time.

Still, it does seem like there's a lot to cover.

I still think they'll find "our" Earth. Just because they call that other planet Earth doesn't mean anything to me. :p

All I know is there's going to be one hell of a fireworks show. They've really been budgeting this season, playing out most of it on a galactica or the basestar set, with few FX shots.

Good to know they're thinking ahead, and planning on giving us some eye candy in the finale. My major gripe with the Mini was the lack of surveying the total destruction of 12 homeworlds. Guess I'm a nuke whore, but I love seeing good FX shorts of a nuclear blast and it's devastation.

Oh, and Moore said it's the Earth. Deal with it :)

(He hasn't said how many times it's been nuked thou... "happened before/again", ect et al.)

And is anybody wondering if the lost faction of centurions featured in "Razor" are going to make an appearance before the end? Frak, there's a lot they could cram into these "final five" episodes. They're all going to be amazing. But that's just a hunch. ;)It's difficult to believe that any of them survived, given that their Basestar was destroyed, along with the Hybrid that they were guarding (and, apparently, continuing to research, when they could get their hands on human flesh). Some might have been flying around in Raiders beyond the blast radius, but how significant could they be?

What would be interesting would be to get some kind of insight into the nature and thought processes of the "toasters" that rebelled, if only in flashbacks to that time.

Navy report warns of robot uprising, suggests a strong moral compass (http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/18/navy-report-warns-of-robot-uprising-suggests-a-strong-moral-com/) You know, when armchair futurists (and jive talkin' bloggists) make note of some of the scary new tech making the rounds in defense circles these days it's one thing, but when the Doomsday Scenarios come from official channels, that's when we start to get nervous. According to a report published by the California State Polytechnic University (with data made available by the U.S. Navy's Office of Naval Research) the sheer scope of the military's various AI projects is so vast that it is impossible for anyone to fully understand exactly what's going on. "With hundreds of programmers working on millions of lines of code for a single war robot," says Patrick Lin, the chief compiler of the report, "no one has a clear understanding of what's going on, at a small scale, across the entire code base." And what we don't understand can eventually hunt us down and kill us. This isn't idle talk, either -- a software malfunction just last year caused US. Army robots to aim at friendly targets (fortunately, no shots were fired). The solution, Dr. Lin continues, is to teach robots "battlefield ethics... a warrior code." Of course, the government has had absolutely no problems with ethics over the years -- so programming its killer robots with some rudimentary values should prove relatively simple.

----

Robots must learn to obey a warrior code, but increasing intelligence may make keeping the robots from turning on their masters increasingly difficult... (http://www.dailytech.com/New%20Navyfunded%20Report%20Warns%20of%20War%20Robots%20Goin g%20Terminator/article14298.htm)

Full Navy Report Here: Autonomous Military Robotics:
Risk, Ethics, and Design (http://ethics.calpoly.edu/ONR_report.pdf)

Remember what Hawkeye Pierce said about "Military Intelligence" on the TV show "M*A*S*H," Airboss... It's an Oxymoron... for morons, lol.

This is NOT to call YOU a moron... there are PLENTY of brilliant people in the military and I highly respect and admire the work they do and what they do to protect America... Only to say that some of the top brass sometimes seem to have "polished their heads a bit too much." :p -- particularly some of the "military intelligence" types.
Jeff

It's difficult to believe that any of them survived, given that their Basestar was destroyed, along with the Hybrid that they were guarding (and, apparently, continuing to research, when they could get their hands on human flesh). Some might have been flying around in Raiders beyond the blast radius, but how significant could they be?


Ah, thanks. Clearly, I need to re-watch "Razor". :o

Ah, thanks. Clearly, I need to re-watch "Razor". :o

I think I may need to also. I seem to remember (not sure) that there was a two-part episode called Razor. I get the impression that there may have also been a movie or webisode series called Razor, which I may have missed. If someone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

I think I may need to also. I seem to remember (not sure) that there was a two-part episode called Razor. I get the impression that there may have also been a movie or webisode series called Razor, which I may have missed. If someone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance.Razor is considered Episode 1 of Season 4(by RDM & Company), it aired in late 2007 on Scifi and an extended version Dvd was released in December of that year...

Remember what Hawkeye Pierce said about "Military Intelligence" on the TV show "M*A*S*H," Airboss... It's an Oxymoron... for morons, lol.

This is NOT to call YOU a moron... there are PLENTY of brilliant people in the military and I highly respect and admire the work they do and what they do to protect America... Only to say that some of the top brass sometimes seem to have "polished their heads a bit too much." :p -- particularly some of the "military intelligence" types.
Jeff


Believe me, I know exactly what you are talking about having seen it first hand over and over thoughout the years.

Btw... a heads up, Scifi has several Episodes this afternoon starting with Crossroads II...