I think we'll see more series that are "up to snuff" in the future.

They DID raise the bar.

I think we'll see more series that are "up to snuff" in the future.

They DID raise the bar.

I have a feeling Warehouse 13 won't be included in that statement ;) It does look like a fun show though

I have a feeling Warehouse 13 won't be included in that statement ;) It does look like a fun show though

Yaknow?

I have to give some of these other shows a chance. I haven't before.

Pretty Good???? Its excellent...gives clarification on a lot of the questions people are asking

Well then you'll also like the Watcher article (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/03/battlestar-galactica-daybreak-finale-moore-mcdonnell-olmos.html#more)

That looked like a "National Geographic" RDM was supposedly reading in front of his two stars... I'm betting there were also a slew of other cameos in that scene, if we go back and look frame-by-frame. Not sure, but I highly suspect the woman with the cup sitting on the sidewalk "panhandling" as they began to walk off was Jane Espenson.

Bravo, I was happy to "Let Art Flow" and with that I was very happy with the finale and "The Wrap Up"

One thing that was shown at the very end of the previous episode was a Star system with Stars that were colored and arranged as same as the notes that Hera created. I was stunned that somehow that did not become part of the visual roadmap to Earth.

I did very much like how it came down to very base ideas of loneliness, self doubt, envy, trust, distrust, revenge, rage, friendship, fear of mortality and of course love, courage and faith.

For anyone that has read the Immensely rich Hyperion series by Dan Simmons, in that he postulates that the love is truly manifested as a physical "Force" in the universe...and it is Love that shapes the universe

I think here in BSG it was faith...I am ok with that.

I think if you look at every main character and the plot as a whole they/it were driven by faith

In the end, Gaius had been broken down and "reborn" by faith and that was his savior.

But most importantly Kara's Being was a physical manifestation of her unshakable faith that she had a destiny even if meant "crossing over", her faith (whether she wanted to consciously believe it or not) was a truly undeniable physical and spiritual force in the universe that would do whatever it took to follow that destiny and would not be denied.

And she did lead them to their end...end in this case not bad but just to the end of this journey and the beginning of the next.

(FWIW I am not really a faith driven person...maybe I should be more...)

I loved Alfred Hitchcock. He appeared in most of his movies in a cameo role.

My favorite is when he couldn't be in the boat during "Lifeboat" for his cameo, so they had a picture of him in a a newspaper in the life boat. :D

What the FRAK!?!?!:confused:

Didn't quite think they'd go that way.

Kind of figured Hera would stumble upon something really weird, for a moment there.

Don't stir the $hit. Everyone seems to be happy with the outcome.

Now for the lighter side...

I couldn't help a few times think of The Two ships as giant biological entities with their DNA / Cells fighting, mingling and trying to produce offspring.

Any one ever see "Everything you ever wanted to know about sex and was afraid to ask?"...Baltar just before the battle looked a bit like Woody Alan just before...

Andromeda is the closest spiral galaxy to us. It is not, however, the closest in the local group.

Sneezy, without doing any further research, for the moment, I will take your word on that. I know there are a lot of other, smaller galaxy types besides the large spirals. I just wasn't aware any were closer to us than Andromeda.
Jeff

So thousands in the diaspora never taught the indigenous people English or anything else? They must have lived horribly isolated lives.

I think there'll be a few survivors, who'll find our version of Earth...

That's right motherfrakkers. :p I was off on the rest of it though...sort of.

Someone asked how Anders would know the location of the colony. They said before that only the hybrids would know the location of the Hub, so it's reasonable to assume the same would be true for the colony. Plus Anders was a final-fiver who could control the other hybrids, so he probably tapped into that "stream" they kept talking about.

I absolutely loved it. Definitely cements BSG as my favourite show of all time.

I'm glad they left the head characters, and even Kara, open to interpretation, with a huge emphasis on there being some sort of higher power involved (explains where Kara got her new viper as well). Call it god, or call them gods or whatever...it was perfect. And that's coming from an atheist.

That whole portion from when Hera runs away from Athena and is roaming the ship with Roslin/Athena/Caprica/Baltar/Cavil/Centurions wallking around/looking for her? Frakking cinematic awesomeness.

Edit: By the way...did anyone else notice the "Head Character" music when they panned to Kara on Earth when she and Lee were talking to Adama? Sweet.

Edit 2: I forgot to say one more thing. I do think there are still basestars with Cavils/Simons/Dorals running around, but without resurrection, I don't think they matter.

Oh wise Moobius, I think those of us who aren't oracles may be musing over many of these meanings for many moons to come... There's certainly plenty of food for thought -- and perhaps even for the soul (or is that sole?) Just where is Neo when we need questions about "trinities" like Ronny's Angels answered? :cool:

From Fredfa's "Hot Off The Press" thread at the top of the HDTV Programming thread:

Critic's Notes
'Battlestar Galactica' (Sci-Fi)
Show About the Universe Raises Questions on Earth
By Ginia Bellafante, The New York Times - March 21, 2009

Earlier this week, in advance of the grandly anticipated conclusion of “Battlestar Galactica” on Friday, the United Nations convened a panel to discuss the show’s treatment of terrorism, human rights abuses and religious conflict.

Despite the obviousness of the public relations piggybacking, the United Nations occasion only further legitimized the political seriousness of a series that has explored the post-9/11 consciousness by examining the costs of wartime moral relativism. While a show like “Gossip Girl” might also be said to have ambitions — broadly, to address the injustices of class disparity, let’s say — it is unlikely that the name Blair Waldorf has ever come up at the coffee cart around which the Council of Economic Advisers gathers.

“Battlestar Galactica,” which during its four seasons has elevated the image of the otherwise campy and unambitious Sci Fi channel, has — like most science fiction — conducted an experiment in supposition. Ideas of faith, coexistence and democracy have been delivered with an air of intellectual rigor and a vagueness that has allowed the series to exist as a tabula rasa on which nearly any strain of speculative meaning might viably take shape.

The series began with the premise that the human race had been extinguished by a robot tribe, the Cylons, it had created to enslave. The Cylons, who devoutly follow a single god, have been understood, quite reasonably, as stand-ins for the robotic, prescriptive aspects of religious extremism; they are Islamic fundamentalists in one view, the politically aggressive factions of the Christian right in another. They are literally born and born again.

But toward the show’s finale, as the differences between the Cylons and the remaining humans began to dissolve, the opportunity for a more acutely contemporary symbolism emerged. It became easier to regard the series as an argument for the imperatives of shared interest in a post-racial world.

In another, if fringier, analysis, the show’s focus on the struggles of a contained brigade of human survivors in a post-apocalyptic galaxy is a loose parable for the events in the Book of Mormon: Gaius Baltar (James Callis), the venal scientist turned collaborator turned false prophet turned savior equated not with Jesus or a hundred televangelists but with Joseph Smith. (The original “Battlestar Galactica” of the late 1970s was created by a member of the Church of Latter-day Saints, lending the thesis a certain currency online.)

At the same time, it would hardly seem illogical to read the series, right now at least, as a housing-crisis metaphor: thousands of displaced people without a safety net in search of a home.

Since the revived “Battlestar Galactica” first made its appearance as a mini-series in 2003 it has been celebrated for its moral ambiguity, which seems empty praise, given how much bad television has been created in the name of a gray area and how little anything worthwhile is ever made without it.

But the series has been far more remarkable for the ways in which its characters’ principles and value systems have evolved. Most notable has been the change in Gaius, whose self-regarding penchant for expedience finally gives way to a moving and incalculably consequential display of rectitude in the final episode.

In the end, his self-serving rationalism comes to accommodate a genuine commitment to faith, one that seeks to resolve the show’s theological tensions, if not with the kind of pungence one might have hoped for. The humans have been worshiping multiple deities, but the longstanding battle between monotheism and polytheism is irrelevant, Gaius warns his adversary in philosophical summation.

“Whether we want to call that God or Gods or some sublime inspiration or a divine force that we can’t know or understand doesn’t matter,” he says. “God is a force of nature beyond good and evil.”

Atheism is the real enemy of mankind’s progress; salvation seems to lie in a vague belief in angels and higher powers, as if the series thought of itself as a promotional appendage of Alcoholics Anonymous.

I’m not sure that in the most fleeting sense, it hasn’t. The final three hours of the series devote considerable time flashing back to the lives of the survivors before the fall, who are all shown drinking to the point of physical and psychological compromise.

Though Laura Roslin (Mary McDonnell) seems able to imbibe with a semblance of moderation, we encounter her, in prehistory, learning that her father and two sisters have been killed by a drunken driver on the way home from a baby shower she has given. The scene poignantly contextualizes the calm that Roslin has demonstrated with a mesmerizing consistency throughout her tenure as president of the remaining colony of humans: her own world already evaporated a long time ago.

Roslin’s relationship with the fleet’s military leader, Adama (Edward James Olmos), one built on respect and shared sorrows and a profound inclination to give care, has provided one of the sublime, bittersweet pleasures of the final season. There has been no better or quieter rendering of love in midlife on television. “Battlestar Galactica” has upheld certain liberal pieties without the utmost subtlety. (Why should we abstain from waging biological warfare on annihilators? Because then it makes us no better than our enemies.) But it has drawn the need for, and the sustenance of, emotional connection with a nuanced and deeply felt authenticity.

“Battlestar Galactica” has aspired during its reign more toward the science fiction of Ursula K. Le Guin than toward the science fiction of “Stargate Atlantis”: the show’s taste for gender neutrality seems plucked from her 1969 novel, “The Left Hand of Darkness.”

But the show could not break with the genre’s tradition of hokey, hopeful earnestness. Landing finally on a pastoral facsimile of Earth, the human-Cylon partnership vows to start anew with pledges not to let science outpace soulfulness. One hundred fifty thousand years later, a city of neon stands on the green terrain — as well as the assumption that we won’t make all of the same mistakes over again.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/21/arts/television/21batt.html?_r=1&ref=television

Oh frak. I feel dirty for saying "frak". Anytime something fantastical happened god did it. It's just like that episode of the simpsons Lucy Lawless was in. At least I only purchased season 1 HD DVD.

"Lucy Lawless: Ah, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that, a wizard did it"

In BSG it was god and angels but same difference.

Centurians took it along with their freedom.

It's like Mom & Dad tossed them the keys - they'll spend the next millennium taking turns taking it for joyrides.

I'll bet you those Centurions are furiously humping every electrical outlet on that base ship the same way an un-neutered dog goes at your leg! :p

Mo Ryan's recap/interviews for the last "BSG" are up: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/03/battlestar-galactica-daybreak-finale-moore-mcdonnell-olmos.html#more. Also new details about which Season 4.5 episodes will get extended cuts:

Three episodes from Season 4.5 will have longer cuts on DVD (and Moore doesn't know when the DVD will be coming out, by the way):

The DVD version of "A Disquiet Follows My Soul" will be about 10 minutes longer.

The DVD version of "Islanded in a Stream of Stars" will be about 15-20 minutes longer.

The DVD version of "Daybreak," the series finale, will be about 15-20 minutes longer.

I would agree with most that I could not have imagined a better ending to the journey. Well done and congratulations to all of those involved in BSG.

I loved Alfred Hitchcock. He appeared in most of his movies in a cameo role.

My favorite is when he couldn't be in the boat during "Lifeboat" for his cameo, so they had a picture of him in a a newspaper in the life raft. :D

I thought it was self indulgent of Moore

I would agree with most that I could not have imagined a better ending to the journey. Well done and congratulations to all of those involved in BSG.
Its good if you can swallow that there are 2 earths. One we nuked and one very young. Unless they somehow FTL'd through time.

The whole thing of going from space fairing to stone knives and bear skins, is a bit hard to swallow. The second planet they decide to call Earth, I can live with that, although dint RDM say the nuked city was New York on cinder Earth.

ANd that there are "angels" and they look like Starbuck, Baltar and Six. And that the Angel Starbuck found the wrong earth the first time around. With so many scifi fans mad about having supernatural shows on SciFi I don't see how they can be happy with this. But we could see it coming especially after that show about Baltar in the photo at the mainframe and six making him believe in God. This show became less and less about science fiction and more about human nature and beliefs in the supernatural.

ANd that there are "angels" and they look like Starbuck, Baltar and Six. And that the Angel Starbuck found the wrong earth the first time around. With so many scifi fans mad about having supernatural shows on SciFi I don't see how they can be happy with this.

She found Earth the first time. Period. The second time she found another planet that was habitable.

The angels were part of this show from the beginning. God has been part of this show from the beginning. If people don't like that, that's fine, but that's the show. Since it was established early on, I have no problem with it. If it was something they just threw in at the end, it might be a different story.

ETA: I see you edited your post to acknowledge it's been part of the show all along.

She found Earth the first time. Period. The second time she found another planet that was habitable.

The angels were part of this show from the beginning. God has been part of this show from the beginning. If people don't like that, that's fine, but that's the show. Since it was established early on, I have no problem with it. If it was something they just threw in at the end, it might be a different story.

ETA: I see you edited your post to acknowledge it's been part of the show all along.

Baltar was an angel from the beginning? Maybe in hindsight. It would explain how he survived that nuke blast. Starbuck too? I dont think we suspected anything until she returned from the dead other than maybe she was a cylon becuase of her memories and the drawings. Sorry I have a bad habit of posting and adding. I click save and then think of more. Funny that planet they found last night had the continent structure of earth and its early inhabitants. Sure seemed like earth to me. It it wasnt supposed to be earth, then Moore really botched the ending showing and exact duplicate.

Firstly, they never showed the colony in any way actually blowing up, rather just getting hit by the nukes. Secondly, it's a bit unreasonable to assume that every single cylon was sitting at home hanging out in the colony and they didn't have baseships out there flying around like they did for the entirety of the 4 year series.



I knew people would bring up the multiple meanings of the word "end", but that doesn't really hold any water given that the preceeding line in the statement is "harbinger of death".

You don't think Cylon Earth was full of death and destruction? She led them to death and to their end, both the end of their struggles and the end of their races.

Baltar was an angel from the beginning? Maybe in hindsight. It would explain how he survived that nuke blast. Starbuck too? I dont think we suspected anything until she returned from the dead other than maybe she was a cylon becuase of her memories and the drawings. Sorry I have a bad habit of posting and adding. I click save and then think of more. Funny that planet they found last night had the continent structure of earth and its early inhabitants. Sure seemed like earth to me. It it wasnt supposed to be earth, then Moore really botched the ending showing and exact duplicate.

The real Baltar isn't an angel. But there is an angel that takes the form of Baltar, just like one takes the form of a Six. I always assumed the angels appeared as someone who the person seeing them would trust.

Starbuck? That's left to interpretation. She's been brought back for a purpose by some higher power - only that much seems certain. How you choose to see her specifically, I suppose, is up to you.

Sorry, I was speaking of Earth in the confines of the show. The planet they found last night was just some planet they named Earth in homage to the "real" Earth they found earlier. ;)

So what ever happened to "Kara Thrace is the harbinger of death, she will lead them to their end"?

She did lead them to the end.....to the end of their journey. Even if she died prematurely and needed a little divine intervention in the form of an angel to complete her destiny.

This was quite simply an excellent ending to an excellent show.

1. The Cinder Earth was the one of their legends. This is the REAL Earth.
2. The planet we call Earth is another planet and we call it Earth because they settled on it and renamed it Earth.
3. Kara found Cinder Earth but the pull-away at the end of season 3 was of OUR earth, not theirs. I'm convinced that the writers used some misdirection with that one.

As others have mentioned, it's the constellations that are the problem. The names of the constellations they found in the Temple of Athena are easily explained, they name our constellations on New Earth after those. The problem is, IIRC they looked like ours so they had to have come from our planet. If I'm right with all of that then I don't think there's any logical explanation.

I think a few are a little confused by the 2 Earths thing.

The planet the found earlier this season, cinder Earth, was the real Earth. It was the Earth from there past, home of the 13 colony (which was Cylon). It was the planet they were looking for the whole time, the planet that there religious history called Earth.

The planet they found tonight was just a nameless planet at that point int time, 150,000 years in our past. They named it Earth, in honor or recognition of the real Earth they found earlier. Why call it Earth? Well, like Adama said, Earth was always a dream, there dream home. They found a perfect planet to call home, one they have been dreaming about for years. They found there dream planet so, why not call it Earth.

So, Starbuck didn't lead them to the wrong Earth. She lead them to the planet they were looking for and she has know lead the to a new suitable planet that has become Earth, our Earth.

150,000 years later this is the only Earth we have ever know. We would have no way to know about the other real Earth from our distant distant distant past so, this one becomes the only planet we view as Earth.

The problem is, IIRC they looked like ours so they had to have come from our planet. If I'm right with all of that then I don't think there's any logical explanation.
Maybe they looked for a pattern of stars in our sky that resembled those constellation and name them like you said. They would have been able to see millions of stars in the night sky without any big cities on the planet. Would have been easy to connect the dots and to form constellations they recognized and past it down through our history.

Our planet is full of locations/regions named by founders naming it after their original homes. Calling it Earth makes much more sense than if they decided to just make up a new word to call it.

I think a few are a little confused by the 2 Earths thing.

The planet the found earlier this season, cinder Earth, was the real Earth. It was the Earth from there past, home of the 13 colony (which was Cylon). It was the planet they were looking for the whole time, the planet that there religious history called Earth.

The planet they found tonight was just a nameless planet at that point int time, 150,000 years in our past. They named it Earth, in honor or recognition of the real Earth they found earlier. Why call it Earth? Well, like Adama said, Earth was always a dream, there dream home. They found a perfect planet to call home, one they have been dreaming about for years. They found there dream planet so, why not call it Earth.

So, Starbuck didn't lead them to the wrong Earth. She lead them to the planet they were looking for and she has know lead the to a new suitable planet that has become Earth, our Earth.

150,000 years later this is the only Earth we have ever know. We would have no way to know about the other real Earth from our distant distant distant past so, this one becomes the only planet we view as Earth.


Maybe they looked for a pattern of stars in our sky that resembled those constellation and name them like you said. They would have been able to see millions of stars in the night sky without any big cities on the planet. Would have been easy to connect the dots and to form constellations they recognized and past it down through our history.

I suppose it's possible, WRT you last paragraph. BTW, I edited my last post to include 'the Real Earth'. I agree that our earth is just named after theirs, the original one. I wanted to make that clear.

I thought it was self indulgent of Moore

No worse than J. Michael Straczynski turning off the lights on Babylon 5. :)

After so many great hours of storytelling, I thought it was appropriate for him to "take a bow" as it were.

They said the constellations did match up.

They also said this last "Earth" was a million light years away. Given we know that this last Earth is our Earth that causes two big problems:
1. There's no chance the constellations are close given that distance.
2. If you go that distance from Earth in any direction, you are in the middle of intergalactic space. Not much there.

This issue and the Starbuck questions (what happened to her and where did she and the Viper come from) are pretty big holes in my book. They rest was so good it's very annoying that they couldn't deal with these.

Not sure why this is an issue. They have always thought of Earth as the 13th Colony (not realizing/remembering that they were Cylons). All of the markers that pointed the way (including the tomb of athena, eye of jupiter, etc) pointed towards the Cylon earth. And Kara and her Viper were found on the Cylon Earth, her new Viper POINTED toward Cylon Earth. So the constellations matched Cylon Earth, not ours.

Absolute perfection! That's all I have to say!

Those two angels (and whatever Kara is/was)... I couldn't have asked for anything more! I think Kara was some kind of Angel, too, but she just didn't know it... And Hera ends up being our "Eve."

PERFECT!

I'm just STUNNED!

Or Kara was the Child of (Insert Deity Name here)...sent to save humanity, give her life, and be resurrected.

i just dont like the fact they go thru all these years of fighting & then decide to send galactica into the sun and just hang out.

The biggest question is when the next smart show like this comes along, will there be an audience there to sustain it - or are we destined to continually head towards an "Idiocracy" society.

Depends on the Ecomony. And Electolytes :-)

You have to admit that it was a nice graceful end for the ship, though. I loved Adama's last fly-by, very nice. I also loved the playing of the original 70's BSG theme music while the ships were flying into the sun. Nice touch, can't wait to get the soundtrack for this season. I think that was only the second time the theme appeared in the series.

My brother raised a good question.

Did anyone get the impression that red dress six represented evil (devil with the red dress on) and Baltar (cough, cough) represented good?

When do we get to dig up the Raptors and Vipers that everyone came down to Earth in? I liked it OK, but I would have liked to see someone dig up some left over technology. Even if it was a uniform, a pocket knife, or a Raptor.

Not sure why this is an issue. They have always thought of Earth as the 13th Colony (not realizing/remembering that they were Cylons). All of the markers that pointed the way (including the tomb of athena, eye of jupiter, etc) pointed towards the Cylon earth. And Kara and her Viper were found on the Cylon Earth, her new Viper POINTED toward Cylon Earth. So the constellations matched Cylon Earth, not ours.

I'm with you on this.

It seems some people are trying to "true up" some things that cannot be reconciled. First off, BSG occurs in a fictional universe where a planet called Kobol was "homeworld".

In that fictional universe, as you say, the planet called "Earth" was one inhabited by Cylons, both metallic and skinjob versions. Humans were never a part of it. The constellations match that Earth.

Where the remnants of the Cylons and humans ended up last night was a planet in some star system which they named "Earth" in honor of the home they were seeking. Just because the jump 150,000 years into what we are calling the "present" showed scenes of what looked to be a current modern city doesn't mean it will track with real life.

Mainly because we aren't Cylons, or hybrids. Well, at least most of us aren't ;)

I'm with you on this.



I think I do remember that the Tomb of Athena had that little holographic thing at the end where the constellations came alive...and looked like ours. It's been quite some time and it goes all the way back to Season 2.

I think that's an untientional screw up on their part...at the time they might have been pointing towards our Earth, but realized Cylon Earth was more interesting and had more lessons to give.

The series finale was riveting television, the best I have seen by far, since the Six Feet Under finale. I liked that the show retained its other-worldly ambiguity while also giving us some answers and presenting the possibility of a future better than the past. The writers had to walk a fine line to achieve the effect, so highest marks to them.

The production values of the final episode were off the charts. The haunting and effective music particularly impressed me, as did some of the Africa like long shots.

it showed u can have special effects & character moments in the same episode.....not just 1 or the other like recently.

Well, it still could be "our" earth. The proto-humans they saw could have been the Neanderthals, who we know died out when Cro-magnum man emerged, for what reason nobody is quite sure. But genocide is not an unrealistic speculation, given what we know of man's baser, hard-wired instincts.

It's also not out of the question that evolution could have taken very similar paths on planets with similar makeups and ecosystems. After all, there are certain aspects of our "design" that nature keeps returning to again and again - four limbs, five bones in the extremities, two eyes facing forward for binocular vision and depth perception, two ears for sound location, etc. Every time in earth's ancient history where a big rock from space or a big volcano has wiped the slate clean allowing evolution to begin, essentially, from scratch (it's happened... what? twice, at least?), those fundamental features keep popping up. That's what the fossil record shows us.

This has been the best TV that I have ever watched. I am very sad to see it coming to and end. My Vision is to sit down with little boy in the future and watch the entire series with him. Some of my co-workers and I seat down every week after every episode to break down all scenarios, I am going to miss that.

Best to all the readers and people that posted blogs...Best show so far...

Thanks

Unintentional screw up or not, you land on a new world with completely different sky, but you want to instill some of the traditions and beliefs of home. Do you think it would be that hard to find completely different dots to connect, to create constellations in the night sky very similar to those of home?
With 2500 to 3000 of these dots visible each night, it wouldn't be too tough.

This has been the best TV that I have ever watched. I am very sad to see it coming to and end.

So say we all. :(

Great ending, definitely a huge improvement on what the rest of this last season was. I don't think it was the best series ending ever, but I do think it was the best possible ending for this show.

I was watching with a friend of mine and told her, "He's gonna kill Tory." and sure enough. Then afterwards I was thinking she should have made sure she was on the other side of the tub before putting their hands in LOL

I'm with you on this.

It seems some people are trying to "true up" some things that cannot be reconciled. First off, BSG occurs in a fictional universe where a planet called Kobol was "homeworld".

In that fictional universe, as you say, the planet called "Earth" was one inhabited by Cylons, both metallic and skinjob versions. Humans were never a part of it. The constellations match that Earth.

Where the remnants of the Cylons and humans ended up last night was a planet in some star system which they named "Earth" in honor of the home they were seeking. Just because the jump 150,000 years into what we are calling the "present" showed scenes of what looked to be a current modern city doesn't mean it will track with real life.

Mainly because we aren't Cylons, or hybrids. Well, at least most of us aren't ;)

I'm with you up to your last point. I think it is pretty clear that the planet they ended up on is our (this) Earth. The name may have been recycled, but it is still our Earth.

You don't think Cylon Earth was full of death and destruction? She led them to death and to their end, both the end of their struggles and the end of their races.

Harbinger of death = "Bringer of death".

She didn't bring any death on cylon Earth. If the cylon Earth was meant to be where she fulfilled the harbinger of death role, it would mean that you thought she destroyed cylon Earth, which obviously is not the case.

Still though, I liked the ending, I just felt like they copped out on the whole harbinger of death thing unless you really, really, really make some wild stretches.

I thought that in the end, they were either all going to die on "our Earth" or they were going to jump to the future and show the robots revolting again. If they all died on our Earth in the end that would perfectly fulfill her prophecy without making some really, really long stretches that people are trying to draw out here.

Great ending, definitely a huge improvement on what the rest of this last season was. I don't think it was the best series ending ever, but I do think it was the best possible ending for this show.

I was watching with a friend of mine and told her, "He's gonna kill Tory." and sure enough. Then afterwards I was thinking she should have made sure she was on the other side of the tub before putting their hands in LOL

Yeah, it was pretty clear she was going to get killed. He looked like he had murder in his eyes even before he found out about Callie.

Harbinger of death = "Bringer of death".

Not "bringer" of death - "sign of" or "symbol" of death.

A harbinger is a sign of things to come. Simply revealing death would fit the title.

I wonder if the writers did research to show that gazelles and flamingos existed 150,000 years ago and continued to present day without any sign of evolutionary change?

Not "bringer" of death - "sign of" or "symbol" of death.

A harbinger is a sign of things to come. Simply revealing death would fit the title.

Ah, you're right, just looked it up. My mistake.

The planet the found earlier this season, cinder Earth, was the real Earth. It was the Earth from there past, home of the 13 colony (which was Cylon). It was the planet they were looking for the whole time, the planet that there (sic) religious history called Earth.

The planet they found tonight was just a nameless planet at that point int time, 150,000 years in our past. They named it Earth, in honor or recognition of the real Earth they found earlier. Why call it Earth? Well, like Adama said, Earth was always a dream, there dream home. They found a perfect planet to call home, one they have been dreaming about for years. They found there dream planet so, why not call it Earth.

So, Starbuck didn't lead them to the wrong Earth. She lead them to the planet they were looking for and she has know lead the to a new suitable planet that has become Earth, our Earth.

150,000 years later this is the only Earth we have ever know. We would have no way to know about the other real Earth from our distant distant distant past so, this one becomes the only planet we view as Earth.

Maybe they looked for a pattern of stars in our sky that resembled those constellation and name them like you said. They would have been able to see millions of stars in the night sky without any big cities on the planet. Would have been easy to connect the dots and to form constellations they recognized and past it down through our history.


You're correct in your 1st paragraphs about the Earths. Note that in the finale, BSG flies by the Earth's moon and we see several views CLEARLY depicting SEVERAL of THIS Earth's continents.

As to the constellations cited last season as they found THEIR Earth from THEIR past history, I'll attribute their identification to writers' discontinuity. You need to really go out and look at the stars at night to realize the last paragraph rationalization doesn't play well. 'Constellations' are imagined linkages of brighter stars and are unique footprints form any stellar destination.

It's impossible to say what happened re Kara, Lords of Kobol, etc.because R Moore is SO incoherent in his plot and character development that most anything imaginable and ludicrous could be the answer.

The 1st 2 seasons were brilliantly conceived with good characterizations, mysteries and suspense. RDM's technique became presenting a weekly episode full of "Whoa! Wouldn't THIS be way cool!" scenes at the expense of episodic story telling. Sometimes this succeeded brilliantly and sometimes (the political stories, Lee Adama's out of the blue relationship with the hooker, the water stories) it didn't.

Once I learned to shut down all aspects of critical thinking, I enjoyed the last half season and even the rabbit outa the hat ending. Glad they chose to end it that way.

You're correct in your 1st paragraphs about the Earths. Note that in the finale, BSG flies by the Earth's moon and we see several views CLEARLY depicting SEVERAL of THIS Earth's continents.

Even more relevant: MSNBC on the TV.

Ok. I know this might not be a good idea, but here goes, was Kara Thrace the archangel Michael or even God. I mean the bird, the symbolism of her being the key to it all and the dying and resurrecting is that similar to Christianity. I haven't any understanding of Mormonism and have been reading how all this is loosely based on there teaching is there something in that faith similar to how Kara was portrayed. I am just so trying to figure out what she was this is the one story line that was not tied up very well to me.

Even more relevant: MSNBC on the TV.

Yep. And if Sci-Fi, uh excuse me, SyFy, was a Newscorp property instead of NBCU, it would have been FNC on that TV. :p

Could someone clear something up for me? Kara uses the music to determine the jump coordinates, which brings them to our Earth. Then the fleet jumps to those coordinates. Are we to assume that once Galactica got to our earth they sent a Raptor to the rendezvous point with the fleet? I find it hard to believe that they picked a rendezvous point prior to the attack that happened to be our earth so I'm assuming they sent a Raptor to get them.

I'm very happy with the ending. My hat is off to everyone who insisted there was a "real Earth" out there somewhere. I thought you were all wrong. I would have bet money on it. Congratulations.

It was good enough that the leftover plot holes don't really matter too much. After a couple of days reflection I might have some nits to pick, but overall I thought it was excellent. We're all Cylons in the BSG universe I guess. That very last scene with RDM I could have done without, but whatever.

To Galactica! She was a fine ship. So say we all.

diddo! Completely different direction from where I thought Moore was headed after they found Earth "1". This is pretty much how I thought the show would end before that, but it looks like Moore wanted to put a kink in the plot and have us all second guess is. He got me!

Oh, and was Cavils death not the best of a tv villain ever "It's a trap!" "Frak!" Blam! How the hell did they get the censors to let them show a person blowing his brains out on tv?

Toche, this one had it all. Tell you the truth, I'm not displeased with the angles\fate\destiny explication for Kara, and the head's.



As for Kara, after a bit of further reflection I think she was "the dove," in Lee Adama's apartment, "the Angel of Deliverance," who was interpreted by machines as someone who will "lead them all to their deaths."

Se kind of did, didn't she? She was leading the team that rescued Hera and brought her safely aboard Galatica. When they took back Hera, that was the end of cylon civilization as they know it. She also lead them to Earth2, in essence destroying the colonials way of life, but giving them a new beginning.


I do have to give it too Moore, his twisting of Faith and Science [which are seen as mutually exclusive more and more in today's society] is pretty creative, and most likely has quite a few on both sides twisted into a tizzy

Could someone clear something up for me? Kara uses the music to determine the jump coordinates, which brings them to our Earth. Then the fleet jumps to those coordinates. Are we to assume that once Galactica got to our earth they sent a Raptor to the rendezvous point with the fleet? I find it hard to believe that they picked a rendezvous point prior to the attack that happened to be our earth so I'm assuming they sent a Raptor to get them.

Admiral Hoshi mentioned that the raptor met them at the rendevous.

Maybe it's just me but in the triune final episode it seemed as if most every flashback to Caprica scene involved drinking to excess. Roselyn drinking and then a drunk driver killing her family, the strip club scenes where Adama, Tigh & Ellen pound 'em down (we needed more strip club flashbacks, but I digress), Adama barfing in the gutter, Lee and Kara's near drunken frak as Lee's brother slept in a drunken stupor. Is RDM's family in the booze business or am I missing the point and is this a 'too deep for me' message against drinking hard liquor?

Maybe it's just me but in the triune final episode it seemed as if most every flashback to Caprica scene involved drinking to excess. Roselyn drinking and then a drunk driver killing her family, the strip club scenes where Adama, Tigh & Ellen pound 'em down (we needed more strip club flashbacks, but I digress), Adama barfing in the gutter, Lee and Kara's near drunken frak as Lee's brother slept in a drunken stupor. Is RDM's family in the booze business or am I missing the point and is this a 'too deep for me' message against drinking hard liquor?

It's nothing more than a fact that humans do and always have indulged in substances to take them out of their real world.

Maybe it's just me but in the triune final episode it seemed as if most every flashback to Caprica scene involved drinking to excess. Roselyn drinking and then a drunk driver killing her family, the strip club scenes where Adama, Tigh & Ellen pound 'em down (we needed more strip club flashbacks, but I digress), Adama barfing in the gutter, Lee and Kara's near drunken frak as Lee's brother slept in a drunken stupor. Is RDM's family in the booze business or am I missing the point and is this a 'too deep for me' message against drinking hard liquor?

RDM is famously fond of fine scotch and cigarettes (although he says he only smokes now when he's around actors. Or while doing his podcasts). Take from that what you will. :p

Yep. And if Sci-Fi, uh excuse me, SyFy, was a Newscorp property instead of NBCU, it would have been FNC on that TV. :p

... and the series finale probably would have been the occupation of New Caprica. ;)

Maybe it's just me but in the triune final episode it seemed as if most every flashback to Caprica scene involved drinking to excess. Roselyn drinking and then a drunk driver killing her family, the strip club scenes where Adama, Tigh & Ellen pound 'em down (we needed more strip club flashbacks, but I digress), Adama barfing in the gutter, Lee and Kara's near drunken frak as Lee's brother slept in a drunken stupor. Is RDM's family in the booze business or am I missing the point and is this a 'too deep for me' message against drinking hard liquor?

I think the point was that the Colonies (particularly Caprica) had become corrupt, excessively consumptive, morally lax and in freefall. 'They would have eventually destroyed themselves, anyway,' said a six or a three or an eight in season 1. The excessive drinking was just a way to show that.

Ok. I know this might not be a good idea, but here goes, was Kara Thrace the archangel Michael or even God. I mean the bird, the symbolism of her being the key to it all and the dying and resurrecting is that similar to Christianity. I haven't any understanding of Mormonism and have been reading how all this is loosely based on there teaching is there something in that faith similar to how Kara was portrayed. I am just so trying to figure out what she was this is the one story line that was not tied up very well to me.

Don't forget that many religions are referenced in the show, including hinduism, prominently. The theme song for the show is a lady singing the ancient hindu Gayatri Mantra, and the references in the finale to the birth-death cycle are classic hinduism (and buddhism to an extent)

So in referring to Kara, you can't simply refer to Christianity in looking for allegory.

[B]So in referring to Kara, you can't simply refer to Christianity in looking for allegory.

Shussh! This is America ... and the Baptists think they're the only ones here in Heaven. ... padumpump ... how old is that joke? ;) :D

PS: or was it "Methodists" ... I forget ... :)

About as old as:

"Why don't Baptists have sex standing up?"

Because people may think they're dancing.

First off, what a great way to end a series. I'm in the camp of: it wraped up all its major plots and mysteries and only left a few minor questions. Color me very safisfied and content. Loved Cavil and Tory's deaths, respectively. Loved Hendrix's music over the images of robots "evolving".;) Loved the RDM cameo.

On a brief side note, I need to yell at the top of my lungs at Time Warner Cable in southeastern Wisconsin. It was the worst image quality last night, that I've ever seen.:mad: It looked good when there was no movement. But as soon as there was any action, there was major pixalization. Time Warner Cable realy spoiled my enjoyment of all the space battles last night. Oh well...

Now for the main reason I'm posting: Did anyone else watch the "Last Fracking Battlestar Galactica Special", earlier this week? Toward the end of it, there was a weird scene with a very old man, in what looked like a hybrid goo tank. At the time I though, "Who is that?", and then promptly forgot all about it:o until the final episode last night. At the start of the 2 hour finale last night, they showed the scene where Caprica 6 (before the attacks) tells Baltar that she found a new home for his father and last time she saw him, he looked happy. When I saw that scene, I thought, "Oh my God! She put Baltar's father in a hybrid goo tank! He survived the attack on the 12 colonies and is on the Cylon Colony Ship, waiting for Baltar.":eek::cool: Then after watching the finale, I though, oh, that scene was just to remind us about Baltar's relationship with his father. So that when Baltar said he knew about farming, it was kinda sad and ironic. But I still kind thnk that in the extra minutes they add back into the finale, on the dvd, we'll see Baltar's father in a hybrid goo tank.

Admiral Hoshi mentioned that the raptor met them at the rendevous.

Thanks! Figured I missed something like that.

First off, what a great way to end a series. I'm in the camp of: it wraped up all its major plots and mysteries and only left a few minor questions. Color me very safisfied and content. Loved Cavil and Tory's deaths, respectively. Loved Hendrix's music over the images of robots "evolving".;) Loved the RDM cameo.

On a brief side note, I need to yell at the top of my lungs at Time Warner Cable in southeastern Wisconsin. It was the worst image quality last night, that I've ever seen.:mad: It looked good when there was no movement. But as soon as there was any action, there was major pixalization. Time Warner Cable realy spoiled my enjoyment of all the space battles last night. Oh well...

Now for the main reason I'm posting: Did anyone else watch the "Last Fracking Battlestar Galactica Special", earlier this week? Toward the end of it, there was a weird scene with a very old man, in what looked like a hybrid goo tank. At the time I though, "Who is that?", and then promptly forgot all about it:o until the final episode last night. At the start of the 2 hour finale last night, they showed the scene where Caprica 6 (before the attacks) tells Baltar that she found a new home for his father and last time she saw him, he looked happy. When I saw that scene, I thought, "Oh my God! She put Baltar's father in a hybrid goo tank! He survived the attack on the 12 colonies and is on the Cylon Colony Ship, waiting for Baltar.":eek::cool: Then after watching the finale, I though, oh, that scene was just to remind us about Baltar's relationship with his father. So that when Baltar said he knew about farming, it was kinda sad and ironic. But I still kind thnk that in the extra minutes they add back into the finale, on the dvd, we'll see Baltar's father in a hybrid goo tank.

I think his flashback scenes were also meant to remind us how far his character evolved.

Now for the main reason I'm posting: Did anyone else watch the "Last Fracking Battlestar Galactica Special", earlier this week? Toward the end of it, there was a weird scene with a very old man, in what looked like a hybrid goo tank. At the time I though, "Who is that?", and then promptly forgot all about it:o until the final episode last night. At the start of the 2 hour finale last night, they showed the scene where Caprica 6 (before the attacks) tells Baltar that she found a new home for his father and last time she saw him, he looked happy. When I saw that scene, I thought, "Oh my God! She put Baltar's father in a hybrid goo tank! He survived the attack on the 12 colonies and is on the Cylon Colony Ship, waiting for Baltar.":eek::cool: Then after watching the finale, I though, oh, that scene was just to remind us about Baltar's relationship with his father. So that when Baltar said he knew about farming, it was kinda sad and ironic. But I still kind thnk that in the extra minutes they add back into the finale, on the dvd, we'll see Baltar's father in a hybrid goo tank.

That's an interesting point. I was at some stage thinking why that hybrid in razor was so old, whereas all the other hybrids are way younger.

So there's still something to explore (and they still have the Plan left...)

The Hybrid in Razor was on board one of the "Old Style" Baseships... thus had been in a tank for 40+ years...

Toward the end of it, there was a weird scene with a very old man, in what looked like a hybrid goo tank. At the time I though, "Who is that?", and then promptly forgot all about it:o until the final episode last night.Those were scenes from Razor, and I don't think that Hybrid was played by the actor who portrayed Baltar's father.

EDIT: Sorry--dfergie beat my comment, and his point that that Hybrid had been in that tank for over 40 years also says that it wasn't Baltar's dad :).

Don't forget that many religions are referenced in the show, including hinduism, prominently. The theme song for the show is a lady singing the ancient hindu Gayatri Mantra, and the references in the finale to the birth-death cycle are classic hinduism (and buddhism to an extent)

So in referring to Kara, you can't simply refer to Christianity in looking for allegory.

The theme was very Puranic (books of Indian philosophy). Eras of time in Indian philosophy are broken into yugas. But encasulating the yugas are the manvantaras and they repeat over and over. By that philosophy we exist again in each manvantara often doing the same things in our life roles. That I thought was well spelled out as was the astrological theme throughout the series. And though they claim (in the extras on the DVD and HD-DVD) to be making up the show as they go along I always figured this was where they planned to end up.

Someone mentioned watching the series with their son in a few years, my son 5 5 1/2 months old right now, I can't wait for him to be at an age to understand the concepts presented here so we can watch it together.

That's an interesting point. I was at some stage thinking why that hybrid in razor was so old, whereas all the other hybrids are way younger.

So there's still something to explore (and they still have the Plan left...)

isnt there a comic book coming out as well ?

The Hybrid in Razor was on board one of the "Old Style" Baseships... thus had been in a tank for 40+ years...

Fair enough, it was just a thought. But why would a hybrid age anyhow? None of the other cylons seemed to have an 'issue' with that.

The Hybrids were originally Human I believe(if I remember right), before being modified thus the aging...

From Fredfa's "Hot Off The Press" thread at the top of the Programming Page:

TV Notes
Tearful goodbyes at final 'Battlestar' screening
By James Hibberd, The Hollywood Reporter senior reporter, in his LiveFeed blog, March 21, 2009

Lee Adama and Laura Roslin sit beside each other near the middle of the theater.

Baltar, Romo Lampkin and Anders are together in a cluster near the back, like rowdy troublemakers.

That rebel Starbuck takes what some would consider the worst seat in the theater, and a few would call the best -- front row center -- the big screen towering above her.

This is at Friday night's Los Angeles screening of the series finale of "Battlestar Galactica." It's not a media event. It's cast and crew, their families, and some Sci Fi Channel executives. The BSG family, in other words, saying goodbye seven years after their ground-breaking series debuted. At the same time, viewers nationwide are watching the finale on the Sci Fi Channel (the early ratings for which indicate a huge send-off -- 2.4 million viewers, the best performance for "Battlestar" since its season "2.5" premiere three years ago; plus the final season has also been adding about 700,000 viewers per episode thanks to DVR).

One by one, "Battlestar" players take the stage to introduce the last episode:

"I've never done anything like this show," says star Edward James Olmos. "We're not going to get another chance like this. This is the standard. Don't judge anything else you do by this. It's going to be hard for Ron [Moore] and David [Eick] to excel beyond this."

The crowd laughs at this apparent jab. But Olmos is both sincere and not intending an insult.

"'Blade Runner' took 25 years to become what it is today," Olmos says. "This is the same way -- 25 years from today we will have have more recognition for this show than we do today."

Executive producer David Eick praises Sci Fi Channel, and deservedly so. Fans are tough on the network, but executive vp programming Mark Stern in particular deserves heavy credit for "Battlestar." For all the notes Moore and Eick have resisted over the years, Sci Fi gave the team enormous creative leeway and have promoted the hell out of the series even as its viewership shrank.

"We had this odd agenda -- to break new ground," Eick says. "They didn't want just another space show. It was a singular opportunity. Despite some telling us to lighten and brighten it, they took their foot off the brakes and let us do what we wanted to do."

Sci Fi's Stern takes the stage and gives a lengthy speech, often quoting critic reviews praising the finale. It's almost like he doesn't want the moment to pass and the show's voyage to be over.

"You don't have to look any further than the way this show is passed over by the Emmys to know the way sci fi as a genre is [slighted]," Stern says. "It's been am amazing journey. I'm not sure what I'm going to do without it."

And finally, showrunner Ron Moore:

"I really don't want this to happen," Moore says. "Tonight there is a 'Battlestar Galatica.' Tomorrow there was. I'm sure there will be reunions and retrospectives and extended cuts -- and other ways for me to make money" [laughter]. "And some solace can be found. But what has happened now. I'm looking out at faces here who are in anticipation of watching a new 'Battlestar Galactica' -- and that will not happen again."

"It was an honor," Moore says, his voice breaking, "to be your storyteller."

The crowd goes straight to its feet in applause. Many have tears in their eyes.

And with that, we watch part one and two of the finale. Time whips by. As the title "Daybreak" hints, Moore went for a well-earned happy ending. He also promised the conclusion would satisfy (http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/03/qa-ron-moore-on-battlestar-series-finale.html), and I think he delivered on that (a neater explanation for Starbuck's story aside). Most home viewers probably didn't notice, but producers sprung for a full orchestra accompaniment for composer Bear McCreary instead of the usual digitally produced arrangement for the finale. Together with the high-definition projection and the show's consistent overall quality, you'd be hard pressed to call the screening experience "watching television."

The lights come up. The crowd gives a standing ovation.

Lee and Roslin soberly hug.

Anders says, "I was the last person left on 'Galatica.' I'll be a Trivial Pursuit question."

Baltar mock-wipes a tear, but also looks legitimately a little weepy -- one can never be too sure about that guy.

And Romo, who received a battlefield promotion in the finale, says, "I'm still the f--king president."

http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/03/the-battlestar-screening-finale.html#more

Personally loved the little bits/images of Centurion on Centurion violence during the big inter-ship battle.

I'm with you up to your last point. I think it is pretty clear that the planet they ended up on is our (this) Earth. The name may have been recycled, but it is still our Earth.

Well, yes and no. From an interview with Ron Moore:

"RONALD MOORE: Well, I think at the end of season three, we showed you a glimpse of earth. You actually saw it and I think that you will see more of it. We will get to a place that we're going to call Earth by the end of the series. Yeah, you'll get to see it. "

Quote came from here (http://www.craveonline.com/articles/filmtv/04648062/battlestar_galactica_ronald_moore_talks_about_earth.html).

Then there is this from another interview:

"That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here...” This is the only Earth we’ll see?

They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth."

The link to that is here (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html).

What RDM is confirming is that the Earth found at the end of last season was in fact what we identify as "Earth". The constellations match.

The "Earth" in the finale was, in my opinion, more along these lines:

Even after the remnants of the rag-tag fleet of humans and Cylons colonized a completely different planet that they named "Earth", the modern civilization on that planet may or may not be heading down the same path that eventually destroyed the "real" Earth. I took it as a parable--a kind of tongue-in-cheek, "yes, you should be identifying with that civilization because it is a mirror of our own".

The whole Hera is Eve thing confuses me. Some skeletal remains of the resurrected 3 of the final 5, skin jobs and colonials are on our Earth. What do scientists make of those?

And on a related note that may have been previously explained, back on the real Earth, what differences did Baltar detect in the remains found there to indicate they were biological Cylons and not human. If different, how were the final 5 not ever detected as different from everyone else?

Personally loved the little bits/images of Centurion on Centurion violence during the big inter-ship battle.

Yah, for us space geeks Centurion on Centurion is like girl on girl stuff for normal hetero males. :eek:

Or maybe not.

I was talking with my brother this morning about this final episode and discussed that since we were given the backstory on Rosalin loosing her sisters and father to a drunk driver, it would have been a good tie in if the drunk driver would have been Admiral Adama and all this time Adama knew but Rosolin didn't. What a wasted opportunity.

The whole Hera is Eve thing confuses me. Some skeletal remains of the resurrected 3 of the final 5, skin jobs and colonials are on our Earth. What do scientists make of those?

And on a related note that may have been previously explained, back on the real Earth, what differences did Baltar detect in the remains found there to indicate they were biological Cylons and not human. If different, how were the final 5 not ever detected as different from everyone else?

In reality, very few fossil humans have been unearthed.

Mitochondrial Eve refers to a real statistical DNA study of humanity (NOT a skeleton) which concludes it's likely that one woman in particular around 150,000 years ago fostered the offspring that evolved into the current multi-billions of humanity. We're all mostly evolved from that super Mom.

I was talking with my brother this morning about this final episode and discussed that since we were given the backstory on Rosalin loosing her sisters and father to a drunk driver, it would have been a good tie in if the drunk driver would have been Admiral Adama and all this time Adama knew but Rosolin didn't. What a wasted opportunity.

Yah, given the amount that he and Tigh drank it's a wonder they didn't slaughter half of Caprica before the Cylon bitches nuked 'em.

Maybe they looked for a pattern of stars in our sky that resembled those constellation and name them like you said. They would have been able to see millions of stars in the night sky without any big cities on the planet. Would have been easy to connect the dots and to form constellations they recognized and past it down through our history.
There are only about 3,000 stars visible to the naked eye.

Unintentional screw up or not, you land on a new world with completely different sky, but you want to instill some of the traditions and beliefs of home. Do you think it would be that hard to find completely different dots to connect, to create constellations in the night sky very similar to those of home?
With 2500 to 3000 of these dots visible each night, it wouldn't be too tough.

I thought about that aspect over the last few months, too. I suppose you could connect the dots to any group of stars that you want; sort of a "you see what you want to see" sort of thing. But the constellations we see have been known for a long, long time, passed down since ancient times. They encompass, for the most part, the brightest stars in the sky. It's highly unlikely that the brightest stars in the sky just happen to coincide with the figures you want to find (the scales, the fish, the bull, the twins, the water carrier, etc.).

In the tomb of Athena, the holographic planetarium show showed the same pattern and layout of stars that we see. There is no known star close enough to us that could possibly have the same configuration of stars around it.

It's a plot hole. I can accept that, but it's there nevertheless.

And just who built the Tomb of Athena? Some of the 13th (cylon) tribe must have travelled back to Kobol and drawn up the plans for the planetarium with a map of the night sky on Earth. I can imagine that when T13 got to Earth they looked up and "saw their brothers", meaning the patterns of the brightest stars DID line up with the 12 tribal symbols they already knew. They "saw what they were looking for." It's a stretch, but at least it makes sense.

But why was that so important? When the T13 folks brought knowledge of Earth back to Kobol, were all the other tribes still there? The mere existence of another planet "out there" where the 13th tribe had made a new home would be significant, I suppose. But why the big secret? They didn't have coordinates back then to describe the location? They needed the supernova at the Eye of Jupiter temple to go off just at the right moment thousands of years in the future to let people figure out the location of this planet called Earth?

My biggest disappointment is the fallout of the mythology of the Colinial tribes and their Pythian Prophecies. God - or whatever you want to call him/it - played a significant hidden role in the series from beginning to end. But the Colonial religion had it all wrong. There was no reconcilliation or revelation at the end about any of that. Guess we have to buy the comic book for that information. They spent umpteen minutes with Baltar and his inane rambling religious nonsense - as bad as any phony TV preacher - but hardly any time at all on the breakdown of their traditional religion that they've been following for thousands of years. There's a ton of stuff they could have done in Season 4.5 that would have been better than some of the awful episodes they did.

I still like the ending. I guess it was the best they could do.

The "Earth" in the finale was, in my opinion, more along these lines:

Even after the remnants of the rag-tag fleet of humans and Cylons colonized a completely different planet that they named "Earth", the modern civilization on that planet may or may not be heading down the same path that eventually destroyed the "real" Earth. I took it as a parable--a kind of tongue-in-cheek, "yes, you should be identifying with that civilization because it is a mirror of our own".

What I regard as conclusive evidence that last night's planet is the planet WE call Earth is that as the Battlestar flew over a large moon with the blue planet in the background several, not just one or two, major Earth continents were clearly shown.

That's leaving out the MSNBC logo clearly shown 150,000 years later. Not that anybody actually WATCHES MSNBC.

I was talking with my brother this morning about this final episode and discussed that since we were given the backstory on Rosalin loosing her sisters and father to a drunk driver, it would have been a good tie in if the drunk driver would have been Admiral Adama and all this time Adama knew but Rosolin didn't. What a wasted opportunity.

That wouldn't work due to the fact she would have seen the "accused" drunk driver at the trial!;)

What I regard as conclusive evidence that last night's planet is the planet WE call Earth is that as the Battlestar flew over a large moon with the blue planet in the background several, not just one or two, major Earth continents were clearly shown.

That's leaving out the MSNBC logo clearly shown 150,000 years later. Not that anybody actually WATCHES MSNBC.

Well, look how long they have to build an audience! :p

Agree that the earth they finally settled on was our earth. Didn't play out the way I thought; no way did I think RDM was going to go where he went. Making it so mystical, making a "higher power" be the guiding hand all along - just didn't think he'd go there. Kinda' deus ex machina - literally. No way around it.

What I regard as conclusive evidence that last night's planet is the planet WE call Earth is that as the Battlestar flew over a large moon with the blue planet in the background several, not just one or two, major Earth continents were clearly shown.

That's leaving out the MSNBC logo clearly shown 150,000 years later. Not that anybody actually WATCHES MSNBC.

Also, wasn't that issue of National Geographic a REAL issue a few months ago?

What RDM is confirming is that the Earth found at the end of last season was in fact what we identify as "Earth". The constellations match.

Not at all. RDM is confirming in those quotes that what they found was the "Earth" that they had been searching for - the Earth of the 13th colony. Not that it was "our" Earth.

There's no doubt that the Earth from last night was our Earth.

I watched the BSG finale last night but did not record it. I have a comment/question:
Could the producers have computer generated a small continent off Africa and instead of sending most of their ships into the sun could have settled some people on what would become the mythical land of Atlantis? OK, you can start laughing now.........

Damn Verizon FIOS TVGUIDE!!! It cut off before it ended!!! The colonies were walking with the new President and it cut off right there...:(:(:(

Interesting bit of trivia from Alan Sepinwall's Q&A/interview with RDM: http://sepinwall.blogspot.com/2009/03/battlestar-galactica-ronald-d-moore.html

Moore: Cavil killing himself came from Dean Stockwell, to be honest. As scripted, in that climactic battle in CIC, Tigh was going to grab Cavil and fling him over the edge of the upper level, and he was going to fall to his death. Dean called me himself and said, "I just really think that in that moment, Cavil would realize the jig is up and it's all hopeless and just put a gun in his mouth and shoot himself." And I just said, "Okay."

I watched the BSG finale last night but did not record it. I have a comment/question:
Could the producers have computer generated a small continent off Africa and instead of sending most of their ships into the sun could have settled some people on what would become the mythical land of Atlantis? OK, you can start laughing now.........

I'm not laughing. Would have preferred something like that, I think. I just don't see them giving up all their tech, giving up being a space faring race, and starting from scratch. But, hang onto that thought 'cause I think that's where LOST might be going. ;)

The whole Hera is Eve thing confuses me. Some skeletal remains of the resurrected 3 of the final 5, skin jobs and colonials are on our Earth. What do scientists make of those?

Well, apparently those were never found. Hera's the protohuman, for good or ill, for continuity or stupidity.

And on a related note that may have been previously explained, back on the real Earth, what differences did Baltar detect in the remains found there to indicate they were biological Cylons and not human. If different, how were the final 5 not ever detected as different from everyone else?

Remember that Baltar's Cylon detector did work, but was discredited because Baltar didn't fess about Boomer in Season 1.

And, in fairness, the Final Five were detected prematurely at least twice.

#1: was by D'Anna. Whose reward for it was being boxed. Also, we later learn that she didn't really have a secret -- just privileged information Cavil preferred to have go unknown.

#2: was by the Raiders when they scanned Sam in the S4 opener. Their reward was a lobotomy, for the same reasons.

Don't forget that many religions are referenced in the show, including hinduism, prominently. The theme song for the show is a lady singing the ancient hindu Gayatri Mantra, and the references in the finale to the birth-death cycle are classic hinduism (and buddhism to an extent)

So in referring to Kara, you can't simply refer to Christianity in looking for allegory.

The cycle of time is a distinctly eastern religious component.

While people often read the cycle of time into western religion, that is a misread of God's destruction of creation. In the western tradition, God has no intention of starting over indefinitely.

Oddly, the cycle of time is generally considered to be a religious component influenced by the seasons. There is a reason that Norse religion has a clear end point while Hinduism does not. Cultures with four distinct seasons tend to have a more strict concept of an end time, largely influenced by our knowledge of winter.

The excessive drinking was just a way to show that.

Like a lot of things on BSG, drinking and sex were substituted for more thoughtful developments.

RDM is famously fond of fine scotch and cigarettes (although he says he only smokes now when he's around actors. Or while doing his podcasts). Take from that what you will. :p

I had a professor once in college who gave a very similar answer about pot. We all assume he meant that he tokes up all the time.

i just dont like the fact they go thru all these years of fighting & then decide to send galactica into the sun and just hang out.

I don't find that distinct from what they tried to do on New Caprica.

3. Kara found Cinder Earth but the pull-away at the end of season 3 was of OUR earth, not theirs. I'm convinced that the writers used some misdirection with that one.

In fairness, that was why Kara was so pissed. Remember, she said there were green fields and ice cream and every child had a puppy who stayed in a permanent state of puppiness.

Did anyone get the impression that red dress six represented evil (devil with the red dress on) and Baltar (cough, cough) represented good?

That was specifically squelched by the angels themselves, who said God doesn't do sides. Perhaps the robots might disagree, particularly given that dead Racetrack sure seemed nudged into firing her nukes.

- - -

Does any one else find it interesting that by releasing the Centurions into space, the show leaves open continuity with the Original Series? Or, for that matter, the implication that whatever happened to creators of ToS Cylons was what happened to humanity?

You'd sort of think God would tire of this cycle, and maybe just go play some Halo for a couple millenniums.

Interesting bit of trivia from Alan Sepinwall's Q&A/interview with RDM: http://sepinwall.blogspot.com/2009/03/battlestar-galactica-ronald-d-moore.html

Moore: Cavil killing himself came from Dean Stockwell, to be honest. As scripted, in that climactic battle in CIC, Tigh was going to grab Cavil and fling him over the edge of the upper level, and he was going to fall to his death. Dean called me himself and said, "I just really think that in that moment, Cavil would realize the jig is up and it's all hopeless and just put a gun in his mouth and shoot himself." And I just said, "Okay."

I think they should have stayed with the original scrip. As ego driven as Cavil was, he certainly wouldn't have off himself.

I'm not laughing. Would have preferred something like that, I think. I just don't see them giving up all their tech, giving up being a space faring race, and starting from scratch. But, hang onto that thought 'cause I think that's where LOST might be going. ;)


Same here. I just don't see it happening that way. It wasn't really the technology that got them into trouble, its what people did with it. It would have made more sense to send the trouble makers (think Baltar) into the sun. :)

Same here. I just don't see it happening that way. It wasn't really the technology that got them into trouble, its what people did with it. It would have made more sense to send the trouble makers (think Baltar) into the sun. :)

How do you maintain a technologically advanced society with just 15k people and a few battered ships? Look at New Caprica. That place was a mess before the cylons showed up. Remember, these people all went through that and then were found by their pursuers. Maybe blending in with the inhabitants would keep the bad cylons away. The fleet has no idea if they are still out there or not.

How do you maintain a technologically advanced society with just 15k people and a few battered ships? Look at New Caprica. That place was a mess before the cylons showed up. Remember, these people all went through that and then were found by their pursuers. Maybe blending in with the inhabitants would keep the bad cylons away. The fleet has no idea if they are still out there or not.

That was almost a "Watchtower" lyric.:cool:

How do you maintain a technologically advanced society with just 15k people and a few battered ships? Look at New Caprica. That place was a mess before the cylons showed up. Remember, these people all went through that and then were found by their pursuers. Maybe blending in with the inhabitants would keep the bad cylons away. The fleet has no idea if they are still out there or not.

I've not seen any thing to indicate that the bad cylons would discriminate with who they'd kill. If they look human, they're dead.

Fantastic conclusion to the series, and one that gets better each moment I mull it over. As the blog writer noted in the earlier link, BSG really "stuck the landing". How many hyped finales can say the same? Seinfeld, MASH, Sopranos, Alias? Nope.

I loved the journey's conclusion of Baltar's character (who was always the most interesting character to me) from traitor, to despot, to false messiah, finally to spiritual sage. The production values were off the charts, and the most shocking moment was one that will linger for a long time, Cavil's realization that all was lost, and to end it for himself.

The only negative was the hokey robot montage. Yeah, we get it, we're building robots. But this show was never about robots, remember?


Let's hope Lost can stick it's landing as well or better...

I've not seen any thing to indicate that the bad cylons would discriminate with who they'd kill. If they look human, they're dead.

Low technology = Hard to find.

That was specifically squelched by the angels themselves, who said God doesn't do sides. Perhaps the robots might disagree, particularly given that dead Racetrack sure seemed nudged into firing her nukes.



Yeah but the nukes targeted those that wanted continually conflict and to wipe out the human race. It left alone (if you can call it that) the Cylons that wanted Peace.

Same here. I just don't see it happening that way. It wasn't really the technology that got them into trouble, its what people did with it. It would have made more sense to send the trouble makers (think Baltar) into the sun. :)

The problem I had with them giving up tech is that they also gave up the ability to warn their progeny about the dangers of tech outpacing our capacity for compassion. So 'we' had to suffer through warring with one another until the present day, where we stand on the precipice of going through it all over again.

Our military seems hellbent on pursuing artificial intelligence for drones, packbots, etc...as it lowers the human cost of war. Hard to blame them. But what happens when the drones/bots are better armed than we are and have the ability to resason for themselves?

Then again, even with a warning, would we actually listen?

Well, yes and no. From an interview with Ron Moore:

"RONALD MOORE: Well, I think at the end of season three, we showed you a glimpse of earth. You actually saw it and I think that you will see more of it. We will get to a place that we're going to call Earth by the end of the series. Yeah, you'll get to see it. "

Quote came from here (http://www.craveonline.com/articles/filmtv/04648062/battlestar_galactica_ronald_moore_talks_about_earth.html).

Then there is this from another interview:

"That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here...” This is the only Earth we’ll see?

They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth."

The link to that is here (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html).

What RDM is confirming is that the Earth found at the end of last season was in fact what we identify as "Earth". The constellations match.

Spectacularly wrong interpretation of Moore's answer. Read his answer again: he actually evaded answering the question: he never answered "yes" to the question of whether the ruined Cylon Earth is the only Earth that's going to appear on the show. You interpreted - incorrectly - that he answered yes but his answer, while literally truth, is deliberately vague and leaves open the possibility of another planet called Earth appearing on the show.

After last night's series finale, we know why. The ruined Cylon Earth they found IS the Earth from their past history and mythology. When they found it, they found the Earth that they were looking for. That's what Moore meant when he said, "They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth." His answer carefully refused to agree with what the interviewer was trying to get him to acknowledge: that the Cylon Earth was the only Earth that was going to appear on the show. Had he agreed to that, he would have been acknowledging, by implication, that Cylon Earth was the real life Earth.

As we found out last night, Moore didn't want to concede that because it wasn't true. The real life Earth is a different planet from the Cylon Earth. Did you miss the multiple shots of the geographic features of the planet's surface, including the map that showed all the continents they were settling people on? Watch the Cylon Earth episode again. They deliberately took care not to show any geologic features of the planet's surface. All we saw was clouds and lots of blue ocean but no land masses. The reason is clear now: because the Cylon Earth doesn't have Africa, Asia, Australia, North America on it. But the Earth they settled on does. I don't know how one gets through watching last night's episode and still clings to the notion that "the Earth found at the end of last season was in fact what we identify as 'Earth.'" That WAS a possibility the writers obviously wanted to leave open after last season's episode. The series finale, however, has completely put to rest that theory.

^^^I agree with peter, peter. :p

God I miss it already. No reason to keep cable now(bad economy doncha know). NJ and other tri-state residents Edward James Olmos will be at the spring Chiller show this April along with the actress who played Kat. So save some bucks and salute your Admiral in person .

Spectacularly wrong interpretation of Moore's answer. Read his answer again: he actually evaded answering the question: he never answered "yes" to the question of whether the ruined Cylon Earth is the only Earth that's going to appear on the show. You interpreted - incorrectly - that he answered yes but his answer, while literally truth, is deliberately vague.

After last night's series finale, his vague answer has been clarified. The ruined Cylon Earth they found IS the Earth from their past history and mythology. When they found it, they found the Earth that they were looking for. That's what Moore meant when he said, "They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth." His answer carefully refused to agree with what the interviewer was trying to get him to acknowledge: that the Cylon Earth was the only Earth that was going to appear on the show. Had he agreed to that, he would have been acknowledging, by implication, that Cylon Earth was the real life Earth.

As we found out last night, Moore didn't want to concede that because it wasn't true. The real life Earth is a different planet from the Cylon Earth. Did you miss the multiple shots of the geographic features of the planet's surface, including the map that showed all the continents they were settling people on? Watch the Cylon Earth episode again. They deliberately took care not to show any geologic features of the planet's surface. All we saw was clouds and lots of blue ocean but no land masses. The reason is clear now: because the Cylon Earth doesn't have Africa, Asia, Australia, North America on it. But the Earth they settled on does. I don't know how one gets through watching last night's episode and still clings to the notion that "the Earth found at the end of last season was in fact what we identify as 'Earth.'" That WAS a possibility the writers obviously wanted to leave open after last season's episode. The series finale, however, has completely put to rest that theory.

Great post, and it's what I was going to write but you did much better than I would have. ;)

The problem I had with them giving up tech is that they also gave up the ability to warn their progeny about the dangers of tech outpacing our capacity for compassion. So 'we' had to suffer through warring with one another until the present day, where we stand on the precipice of going through it all over again.

Our military seems hellbent on pursuing artificial intelligence for drones, packbots, etc...as it lowers the human cost of war. Hard to blame them. But what happens when the drones/bots are better armed than we are and have the ability to resason for themselves?

Then again, even with a warning, would we actually listen?

I think that's exactly what RDM is saying. No matter our best intentions, we're destined to develop the technology that will ultimately lead to the cycle repeating itself over and over. It's inevitable. Enough time always passes that the mistakes of the past are forgotten and technology provides and becomes the villain every time. The whole process may have happened over and over; we only know of these two cycles.

The bigger question is, since RDM decided to go the mystical/religious route, why would an omniscient "God" and his "angels" continue to allow it to happen? Always results in a lot of heartbreak, misery, and violent death. As MeowMeow states above, you'd think He'd tire of all this at some point and use His vast and mysterious powers to end it once and for all. Or maybe the message is more subversive: God either has a weird sense of humor, or He's kind of sadistic. Or, maybe He's, as Baltar may have suggested, just pissed off that everybody keeps calling him "God". :D

But heartbreak, misery, fatigue, humor, sadism are all human conditions that may or may not apply to a "Force of Nature"...

v/r,
C-F

\

The bigger question is, since RDM decided to go the mystical/religious route, why would an omniscient "God" and his "angels" continue to allow it to happen? Always results in a lot of heartbreak, misery, and violent death. As MeowMeow states above, you'd think He'd tire of all this at some point and use His vast and mysterious powers to end it once and for all. Or maybe the message is more subversive: God either has a weird sense of humor, or He's kind of sadistic. Or, maybe He's, as Baltar may have suggested, just pissed off that everybody keeps calling him "God". :D

I actually think RDM acknowledged that in the Angels' discussion at the end. It will keep on going until something unexpected happens. The Angel Six seems to think it will stop...Angel Baltar is not so sure.

Free will is considered to be God's greatest gift...and a simultaneous curse. If he intervened every time we screwed up we wouldn't really be human. Our flaws define us more than our virtues, and overcoming them is up to us, hot God.

Spectacularly wrong interpretation of Moore's answer.
...
You interpreted - incorrectly - that he answered yes but his answer, while literally truth, is deliberately vague and leaves open the possibility of another planet called Earth appearing on the show.
...
I don't know how one gets through watching last night's episode and still clings to the notion that "the Earth found at the end of last season was in fact what we identify as 'Earth.'" That WAS a possibility the writers obviously wanted to leave open after last season's episode. The series finale, however, has completely put to rest that theory.
It was a wrong interpretation, but not spectacularly so. They were deliberately vague about it. Last night's episode does put it to rest, but you can't handwave away the fact that the constellations matched on cylon Earth. That was more than a little vague. That was either outright deception, an incompetent science advisor, or a ret-con.

You have to realize that if, in fact, the writers' strike had ended the show for good then they would have had no choice other than to declare that burnt-out cinder Earth was the one and only Earth. As it turns out, the writers had to come up with something else and we saw the result last night. But if the constellations matched on cylon Earth then there's no way they could also match on "our" Earth, with all the continents we know and love. It's a connundrum that must be accepted because it is what it is.

Yeah but the nukes targeted those that wanted continually conflict and to wipe out the human race. It left alone (if you can call it that) the Cylons that wanted Peace.

If you think of BSG in the Tarentino story structures (X's Story, Y's Story, Z's Story, etc), then God's Story in BSG is a one-for-one match to God's story in The Fifth Element: essentially God is on the side of life, in the broadest sense possible.

I'm just a little put off by a non-judgmental God passing out judgments. Killer robots have every right to kill as many people and dance to as much Jimi Hendrix as they can, without regard to the moral hazards therein or undanceability thereof.

Am I the only person who liked the dancing robots ending?

I've read some stuff online after watching the episode, and the one unifying feature of all criticisms seems to be something from tepid tolerance of to seething hatred for the Times Square ending.

I thought the robots dancing to Jimi Hendrix was a funny exclamation point for a show that often hemmed around the possibility that it's story is a pointless cosmic joke perpetrated by a thoughtless god.

It was a wrong interpretation, but not spectacularly so. They were deliberately vague about it. Last night's episode does put it to rest, but you can't handwave away the fact that the constellations matched on cylon Earth. That was more than a little vague. That was either outright deception, an incompetent science advisor, or a ret-con.

You have to realize that if, in fact, the writers' strike had ended the show for good then they would have had no choice other than to declare that burnt-out cinder Earth was the one and only Earth. As it turns out, the writers had to come up with something else and we saw the result last night. But if the constellations matched on cylon Earth then there's no way they could also match on "our" Earth, with all the continents we know and love. It's a connundrum that must be accepted because it is what it is.

Is it not possible that new constellations were named here on Earth and simply given the same name as the previous ones?

Am I the only person who liked the dancing robots ending?

I've read some stuff online after watching the episode, and the one unifying feature of all criticisms seems to be something from tepid tolerance of to seething hatred for the Times Square ending.

I thought the robots dancing to Jimi Hendrix was a funny exclamation point for a show that often hemmed around the possibility that it's story is a pointless cosmic joke perpetrated by a thoughtless god.

I've been a critic but me, I liked the dancing bots ambiguous ending. And emotionally I like the entrie tri-partite ending mini-series when I suspend all critical thinking facilities. Great music. Great scenery.

Am I the only person who liked the dancing robots ending?

I've read some stuff online after watching the episode, and the one unifying feature of all criticisms seems to be something from tepid tolerance of to seething hatred for the Times Square ending.

I thought the robots dancing to Jimi Hendrix was a funny exclamation point for a show that often hemmed around the possibility that it's story is a pointless cosmic joke perpetrated by a thoughtless god.

I can see why some people wouldn't like it...BSG doesn't, er that is, didn't usually have to hit you over the head with a brick to send a message.

But I'm ok with it, as this message is intended for US and our future and the dangers we face by letting our tech get too far ahead of our morals. And not just robots, but genetics, chemical/biological reseach, etc.

EDIT: Also, those little robots moving in lockstep with one another was....eerire. Just like the Centurions.

It was a wrong interpretation, but not spectacularly so. They were deliberately vague about it. Last night's episode does put it to rest, but you can't handwave away the fact that the constellations matched on cylon Earth. That was more than a little vague. That was either outright deception, an incompetent science advisor, or a ret-con.

My comments were too strong and I'd change them if they hadn't been quoted already by some other posters - thanks for the kind words :) - but I do think claiming Cylon Earth = real life Earth after the series finale is more than a little wrongheaded, which is what the poster I replied to believed, even after the finale. It was up for debate a year ago or whenever that Cylon Earth episode aired and Ron Moore gave that interview but not after the series finale. I don't know the details of the constellation match too well - like did ever show the exact star formations and pattern or was it like "that's the constellation Orion" in which case, it could be a different pattern of stars from the real life constellation of Orion - but it may very well be a continuity error. I'm sure it's not the only one. But the point I made is, that after the series finale, the evidence is overwhelming that they had settled on real life Earth and Cylon Earth was a different planet, overwhelming enough that the constellation match just wasn't a compelling objection anymore.

Regardless, my remarks were too forceful and gave the impression I was being insulting. I really wasn't, they were meant to be spirited, not disparaging and I certainly apologize.

Or maybe the message is more subversive: God either has a weird sense of humor, or He's kind of sadistic. Or, maybe He's, as Baltar may have suggested, just pissed off that everybody keeps calling him "God". :D
I'll go back to Frank Zappa circa 1981.

They call it the Earth which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right 'cause we behave the same...
We are dumb all over
...
Nerds on the left, Nerds on the right
Religous fanatics on the air every night
Sayin’ the bible tells the story
Makes the details sound real gory
’bout what to do if the geeks over there
Don’t believe in the book we got over here
...
Hey, we can’t really be dumb
If we’re just following God’s orders
Let’s get serious...
God knows what he’s doin’
He wrote this book here
And the book says
He made us all to be just like him,
So if we’re dumb...
Then God is dumb
And maybe even a little ugly on the side

George Santayana famously said,

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
There's a theory that says people are incapable of learning from the mistakes of history. It's in the genetic code somehow. I subscribe to that point of view because, in a non-scientific sample, the vast majority of people I know think that none of what happened in the past - even a mere 50 or 100 years ago - has any bearing whatsoever on their lives today. That's a cycle that may never be broken. We are truly dumb all over.

Yeah, a lot of good that Cylon blood did us 1,500 centuries ago, eh?

^^^I agree with peter, peter. :p

I was trying to give RDM more credit than some people are willing to do. Go back and look at the posts of people saying that there's a plot hole because the constellations on the Earth we saw last night would most likely be "wrong". Well, they'd have to be.

The constellations that match are the ones you'd see standing on the Cylon Cinder Earth. That is the planet that matches the Cylon history of where the 13th tribe of skinjob Cylons wound up. Now, even though the constellations match, clearly that Earth could never be "our" Earth since it was populated only by Cylons. So, no plot hole there.

The planet shown last night was meant to represent the planet we are calling present day "Earth". However, were you to look at the night sky of that planet, you wouldn't see the familiar constellations since that particular "Earth" is some distance away from Cylon Cinder Earth. So, for me, there's no plot hole that needs to be resolved.

The planet Earth we saw last night is the one we would certainlhy identify as "ours". Thing is, it exists in a fictional universe where life apparently began on a planet called Kobol. That part would never true-up.

Now, if you want something that could stand a little more clarification how about this one:

If we accept that the Earth we saw last night is "ours" (and I do, within the above context) then why don't we have at least part silica brains? That seemed to be a major way to tell a skinjob Cylon from a human. So, Hera was the product of a Cylon and a human. There were Cylons as part of the landing party who presumably did the dirty with the natives. So that means we are all hybrids. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

In any case, I'm too petered out to putter perpetually with this preposterous patter I've proposed. :D

I don't think the skinjob cylons had silica brains. They were medically indestinguishable from humans. So much so that at the molecular biology sub-cell level they could breed. No silica.

Yes, I'm ignoring the RDM for shock effect scene where Boomah stuck a fiber optic tube in her arm to interface with the computers. Continuity and rationality oversight by RDM. All too common.

Is it not possible that new constellations were named here on Earth and simply given the same name as the previous ones?

THe problem is they actually showed the constellations graphically...in a stonehenge type setting.

It's really not that huge an issue, only geeks like us will obsess about it :-)

They changed the direction they were going to a 'cylon' planet named Earth...and then introduced the new Earth that we know and love (although we don't always show it).

I was trying to give RDM more credit than some people are willing to do. Go back and look at the posts of people saying that there's a plot hole because the constellations on the Earth we saw last night would most likely be "wrong". Well, they'd have to be.

The constellations that match are the ones you'd see standing on the Cylon Cinder Earth. That is the planet that matches the Cylon history of where the 13th tribe of skinjob Cylons wound up. Now, even though the constellations match, clearly that Earth could never be "our" Earth since it was populated only by Cylons. So, no plot hole there.

The planet shown last night was meant to represent the planet we are calling present day "Earth". However, were you to look at the night sky of that planet, you wouldn't see the familiar constellations since that particular "Earth" is some distance away from Cylon Cinder Earth. So, for me, there's no plot hole that needs to be resolved.

The planet Earth we saw last night is the one we would certainlhy identify as "ours". Thing is, it exists in a fictional universe where life apparently began on a planet called Kobol. That part would never true-up.

Now, if you want something that could stand a little more clarification how about this one:

If we accept that the Earth we saw last night is "ours" (and I do, within the above context) then why don't we have at least part silica brains? That seemed to be a major way to tell a skinjob Cylon from a human. So, Hera was the product of a Cylon and a human. There were Cylons as part of the landing party who presumably did the dirty with the natives. So that means we are all hybrids. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

In any case, I'm too petered out to putter perpetually with this preposterous patter I've proposed. :DThe planet we saw last night was our earth. Just cut open Obama and Barney Franks' brain and you'll see that they are cylons. ;) BTW I missed the evidence that Cylon brains are silica based?

I don't think the skinjob cylons had silica brains. They were medically indestinguishable from humans. So much so that at the molecular biology sub-cell level they could breed. No silica.

Yes, I'm ignoring the RDM for shock effect scene where Boomah stuck a fiber optic tube in her arm to interface with the computers. Continuity and rationality oversight by RDM. All too common.
I agree

Yeah but the nukes targeted those that wanted continually conflict and to wipe out the human race. It left alone (if you can call it that) the Cylons that wanted Peace.

The fleet has no idea if any Cavils are left and bent on destruction. That would be an unknown.

Am I the only person who liked the dancing robots ending?

I've read some stuff online after watching the episode, and the one unifying feature of all criticisms seems to be something from tepid tolerance of to seething hatred for the Times Square ending.

I thought the robots dancing to Jimi Hendrix was a funny exclamation point for a show that often hemmed around the possibility that it's story is a pointless cosmic joke perpetrated by a thoughtless god.

I agree, thought it was brilliant. Of course, as previously mentioned, I'm one of the half-dozen delusional fools who thought 'The Sopranos' ending was sublimely inspired. :p

I've read some stuff online after watching the episode, and the one unifying feature of all criticisms seems to be something from tepid tolerance of to seething hatred for the Times Square ending.

The Times Square ending that wasn't actually filmed in Times Square. Newsstands in New York don't have "NEWSSTAND" written on them, there's no park with trees on in the middle of 44th and Broadway - the approximate location of where they are - and the bus that passes by right before it goes to credits appears to have a yellow strip on the side, which buses in New York don't have. Just to point out some more continuity errors. I'm guessing Vancouver substituting for Times Square superimposed on green screens?

I thought the dancing robots was fine. It's just a silly, playful moment. I don't think there's a big message behind it, like a warning against the potential dangers of robotics and artificial intelligence. It's a jokey thing.

... but I do think claiming Cylon Earth = real life Earth after the series finale is more than a little wrongheaded, which is what the poster I replied to believed, even after the finale...

I don't believe that's what I was attempting to express. Apparently I didn't do a good job.

Regardless, my remarks were too forceful and gave the impression I was being insulting. I really wasn't, they were meant to be spirited, not disparaging and I certainly apologize.

Some people might consider words like "spectacularly" and "wrongheaded" a little more than just being spirited :D. Actually, if the finale didn't evoke spirited discussion, I'd be surprised. Given all of the overt and covert topics touched on in this series, it is just a measure of how great it was as an epic achievement to create such passion.

In any case, I've been called much worse over the years, so I'm quite fine. However, I did catch my protective robot dog AIBO scanning the Internet attempting to locate you. For what reason, I don't know. ;)

I was trying to give RDM more credit than some people are willing to do. Go back and look at the posts of people saying that there's a plot hole because the constellations on the Earth we saw last night would most likely be "wrong". Well, they'd have to be.

The constellations that match are the ones you'd see standing on the Cylon Cinder Earth. That is the planet that matches the Cylon history of where the 13th tribe of skinjob Cylons wound up. Now, even though the constellations match, clearly that Earth could never be "our" Earth since it was populated only by Cylons. So, no plot hole there.

The planet shown last night was meant to represent the planet we are calling present day "Earth". However, were you to look at the night sky of that planet, you wouldn't see the familiar constellations since that particular "Earth" is some distance away from Cylon Cinder Earth. So, for me, there's no plot hole that needs to be resolved.

The planet Earth we saw last night is the one we would certainlhy identify as "ours". Thing is, it exists in a fictional universe where life apparently began on a planet called Kobol. That part would never true-up.

Now, if you want something that could stand a little more clarification how about this one:

If we accept that the Earth we saw last night is "ours" (and I do, within the above context) then why don't we have at least part silica brains? That seemed to be a major way to tell a skinjob Cylon from a human. So, Hera was the product of a Cylon and a human. There were Cylons as part of the landing party who presumably did the dirty with the natives. So that means we are all hybrids. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

In any case, I'm too petered out to putter perpetually with this preposterous patter I've proposed. :D

I agree with peter, peter. :p

All this has happened before and it will all happen again!

The planet we saw last night was our earth. Just cut open Obama and Barney Franks' brain and you'll see that they are cylons. ;) BTW I missed the evidence that Cylon brains are silica based?

This goes way back to the miniseries?

Little has been revealed about silica pathways, which apparently was a technology in the construction of Cylon "brains." Commander Adama compares silica pathways to a brain of sorts. He quickly mentions the technology as he challenges Leoben Conoy of being a new form of Cylon while the two are walking deep inside Ragnar Anchorage.

Apparently, Cylons are affected by the radiation generated by Ragnar's planetary storm. The radiation effects are not immediate on even humanoid Cylons, occurring within the space of hours after initial exposure. Humans appear to experience no symptoms to exposure.

There's a theory that says people are incapable of learning from the mistakes of history. It's in the genetic code somehow. I subscribe to that point of view because, in a non-scientific sample, the vast majority of people I know think that none of what happened in the past - even a mere 50 or 100 years ago - has any bearing whatsoever on their lives today. That's a cycle that may never be broken. We are truly dumb all over.

Yeah, a lot of good that Cylon blood did us 1,500 centuries ago, eh?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, think about it... We evolved from far more dangerous circumstances, where survival was the only name of the game. Our primitive lizard brains still too often govern our actions and its voice gets louder as the stress level rises. How else to explain the horror that men can so easily inflict on one another? How else to explain war? Has there ever been a war where sensible parties couldn't just sit down and work it out, saving everybody a lot of trouble? Why did Billy Stanford keep beating me up for my lunch money when we were kids? We still got a lot of evolvin' to do, my friends.

Maybe that's the ultimate message of this series. We've just got to evolve our way out of this mindset that springs from the deepest, most hidden, most dangerous portion of our minds.

You're correct in your 1st paragraphs about the Earths. Note that in the finale, BSG flies by the Earth's moon and we see several views CLEARLY depicting SEVERAL of THIS Earth's continents.

As to the constellations cited last season as they found THEIR Earth from THEIR past history, I'll attribute their identification to writers' discontinuity. You need to really go out and look at the stars at night to realize the last paragraph rationalization doesn't play well. 'Constellations' are imagined linkages of brighter stars and are unique footprints form any stellar destination.

It's impossible to say what happened re Kara, Lords of Kobol, etc.because R Moore is SO incoherent in his plot and character development that most anything imaginable and ludicrous could be the answer.

The 1st 2 seasons were brilliantly conceived with good characterizations, mysteries and suspense. RDM's technique became presenting a weekly episode full of "Whoa! Wouldn't THIS be way cool!" scenes at the expense of episodic story telling. Sometimes this succeeded brilliantly and sometimes (the political stories, Lee Adama's out of the blue relationship with the hooker, the water stories) it didn't.

Once I learned to shut down all aspects of critical thinking, I enjoyed the last half season and even the rabbit outa the hat ending. Glad they chose to end it that way.

Thanks for writing this, now I don't have to. I completely agree with all of it. I really did enjoy the ending, but only after I had already given up all hope of seeing all of the pieces come together.

There are only about 3,000 stars visible to the naked eye.

I thought about that aspect over the last few months, too. I suppose you could connect the dots to any group of stars that you want; sort of a "you see what you want to see" sort of thing. But the constellations we see have been known for a long, long time, passed down since ancient times. They encompass, for the most part, the brightest stars in the sky. It's highly unlikely that the brightest stars in the sky just happen to coincide with the figures you want to find (the scales, the fish, the bull, the twins, the water carrier, etc.).

In the tomb of Athena, the holographic planetarium show showed the same pattern and layout of stars that we see. There is no known star close enough to us that could possibly have the same configuration of stars around it.

It's a plot hole. I can accept that, but it's there nevertheless.

And just who built the Tomb of Athena? Some of the 13th (cylon) tribe must have travelled back to Kobol and drawn up the plans for the planetarium with a map of the night sky on Earth. I can imagine that when T13 got to Earth they looked up and "saw their brothers", meaning the patterns of the brightest stars DID line up with the 12 tribal symbols they already knew. They "saw what they were looking for." It's a stretch, but at least it makes sense.

But why was that so important? When the T13 folks brought knowledge of Earth back to Kobol, were all the other tribes still there? The mere existence of another planet "out there" where the 13th tribe had made a new home would be significant, I suppose. But why the big secret? They didn't have coordinates back then to describe the location? They needed the supernova at the Eye of Jupiter temple to go off just at the right moment thousands of years in the future to let people figure out the location of this planet called Earth?

My biggest disappointment is the fallout of the mythology of the Colinial tribes and their Pythian Prophecies. God - or whatever you want to call him/it - played a significant hidden role in the series from beginning to end. But the Colonial religion had it all wrong. There was no reconcilliation or revelation at the end about any of that. Guess we have to buy the comic book for that information. They spent umpteen minutes with Baltar and his inane rambling religious nonsense - as bad as any phony TV preacher - but hardly any time at all on the breakdown of their traditional religion that they've been following for thousands of years. There's a ton of stuff they could have done in Season 4.5 that would have been better than some of the awful episodes they did.

I still like the ending. I guess it was the best they could do.

Agreed. Its unfortunate that they invested so much in the mythology only to leaving it dangling in the wind at the end. None of the background mythology from the first few seasons mattered at all. In the end, it was simply an 'angel' that brought them to the promised land. And it wasn't any kind of 'Sixth Sense' revelation of an angel ... it was just dead Kara. Everybody knew she was dead. Everybody knew she was special. Everybody knew she'd do <something> in the end. That being said, the finale was still really fun to watch but I had to keep telling myself to ignore the finer details.

A couple of details that I really had trouble with ... how is it that the Final Five had been together for quite a while now yet they never 'linked' together sooner? Was there something stopping them from doing this before they entered the hornet's nest? Also, did it ever occur to the Final Five to offer resurrection to Cavel BEFORE their suicide mission? Did Tigh just realize at that moment that it might be a decent compromise? Are we supposed to assume that Cavel's crew knew what they were doing with Hera and didn't need resurrection plans from the final five until they lost Hera? I think that's a stretch.

I knew wouldnt be happy discarding technology, they did a rap song bitchin about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-ZyF8_HHe8&feature=related

Five to offer resurrection to Cavel BEFORE their suicide mission? Did Tigh just realize at that moment that it might be a decent compromise? Are we supposed to assume that Cavel's crew knew what they were doing with Hera and didn't need resurrection plans from the final five until they lost Hera? I think that's a stretch..

They would never offer resurrection to Cavil without being forced, after all they had already done so and Cavil turned on the Five.

Cavil simply could not be trusted.. Did you see Ellen's reaction to Tigh, when he said he would give them resurrection tech.

The hand of God had it all worked out, its the reason Tory killed Cally for just that moment.

A small inconsistency that just dawned on me... In the flashback where the Old Man is getting his polygrah (lie detector) test, he gets angry at the questions. In real polygraph tests the examiner does ask pointed, personal questions designed to stir up your emotions. Adama has had enough when asked if he's ever stolen money from a cash drawer, but the question before that gets him mad, too: Are you a Cylon?

Before the fall of the 12 Colonies, nobody knew there were skin jobs. That question would be absurd, not accusatory. You might say, "Do I look like a toaster to you?", but you certainly wouldn't get all upset by it. It would be like me asking someone if they were born on Jupiter. Ridiculous on its face.

Unlike in Season 1 when Roslin wants him to be tested first by Baltar. He tells her, "If I'm a Cylon, you're really screwed." Still one of my favorite lines from the whole series. But they knew there were skin jobs by then. They didn't at the time of the polygraph test.

They would never offer resurrection to Cavil without being forced, after all they had already done so and Cavil turned on the Five.

Cavil simply could not be trusted.. Did you see Ellen's reaction to Tigh, when he said he would give them resurrection tech.

The hand of God had it all worked out, its the reason Tory killed Cally for just that moment.

OK, I think you have the most reasonable explanation, but I still have some problems with that. They all knew this was likely a 'one-way' mission. If Cavil couldn't be trusted, then why would Tigh ever offer it to him, even when put in a corner (that they knew would likely be the case). But like I said, I think you have the best reasonable explanation.

But that still doesn't explain why the Final Five wouldn't have 'linked' sooner. ESPECIALLY, when they were struggling so hard to get the details out of a cricitally injured Anders in earlier episodes. Once they installed him in the goo bath, why would they have not immediatley 'linked'?

The hand of God had it all worked out. So in the end, nothing really mattered. Throw all logic out the window, they were all on cruise control with God at the wheel.

I knew wouldnt be happy discarding technology, they did a rap song bitchin about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-ZyF8_HHe8

Gods not that. It sucked the first time I saw it and still sucks now. That's like Limp Bizkit caliber rapping.

Actually, I wouldn't even call that rap.

A small inconsistency that just dawned on me... In the flashback where the Old Man is getting his polygrah (lie detector) test, he gets angry at the questions. In real polygraph tests the examiner does ask pointed, personal questions designed to stir up your emotions. Adama has had enough when asked if he's ever stolen money from a cash drawer, but the question before that gets him mad, too: Are you a Cylon?

Before the fall of the 12 Colonies, nobody knew there were skin jobs. That question would be absurd, not accusatory. You might say, "Do I look like a toaster to you?", but you certainly wouldn't get all upset by it. It would be like me asking someone if they were born on Jupiter. Ridiculous on its face.

Unlike in Season 1 when Roslin wants him to be tested first by Baltar. He tells her, "If I'm a Cylon, you're really screwed." Still one of my favorite lines from the whole series. But they knew there were skin jobs by then. They didn't at the time of the polygraph test.

I had the impression that he was just annoyed by the entire process, and the cylon question just annoyed him by its pure absurdity.

A small inconsistency that just dawned on me... In the flashback where the Old Man is getting his polygrah (lie detector) test, he gets angry at the questions. In real polygraph tests the examiner does ask pointed, personal questions designed to stir up your emotions. Adama has had enough when asked if he's ever stolen money from a cash drawer, but the question before that gets him mad, too: Are you a Cylon?

Before the fall of the 12 Colonies, nobody knew there were skin jobs. That question would be absurd, not accusatory. You might say, "Do I look like a toaster to you?", but you certainly wouldn't get all upset by it. It would be like me asking someone if they were born on Jupiter. Ridiculous on its face.


Actually, his response made perfect sense to me. After fighting the cylons in the first war, watching his friends die, what kind of question is that to ask a seasoned soldier? They're essentially asking him if he's the enemy. The fact that the enemy is pure metal makes no difference.

They spent umpteen minutes with Baltar and his inane rambling religious nonsense - as bad as any phony TV preacher - but hardly any time at all on the breakdown of their traditional religion that they've been following for thousands of years. There's a ton of stuff they could have done in Season 4.5 that would have been better than some of the awful episodes they did.

I still like the ending. I guess it was the best they could do.

True, but that just if you take it at face value. It's really about Baltar finding faith in something other then his egomania and vanity, and ultimately his redemption. It also played into his fate in the opera house.

It was heavy at times, agreed, but it worked.

Interesting bit of trivia from Alan Sepinwall's Q&A/interview with RDM: http://sepinwall.blogspot.com/2009/03/battlestar-galactica-ronald-d-moore.html

Moore: Cavil killing himself came from Dean Stockwell, to be honest. As scripted, in that climactic battle in CIC, Tigh was going to grab Cavil and fling him over the edge of the upper level, and he was going to fall to his death. Dean called me himself and said, "I just really think that in that moment, Cavil would realize the jig is up and it's all hopeless and just put a gun in his mouth and shoot himself." And I just said, "Okay."

and to me that was perfectly in line with Brother Cavils character. I was surprised how graphic it was and that it was allowed, but the shock of not seeing it coming at the same time making sense was awesome.

No way would Cavil let himself be captured by those disgusting wads of flesh.

I'm not laughing. Would have preferred something like that, I think. I just don't see them giving up all their tech, giving up being a space faring race, and starting from scratch. But, hang onto that thought 'cause I think that's where LOST might be going. ;)

I don't know. I'm sure some people had reservations, but if you've been bunked up in a small bulkhead for [is it six years?], and saw that technology lead to the deaths of billions and billions of your people, and know the cycle is destine to repeat, you might change your mind.

I mean, has anything like this happened to humanity? How would we know they wouldn't choose that option?


Anyways, I think we can all agree, this wasn't a "Enterprise"

\\\hurry up bluray!

But that still doesn't explain why the Final Five wouldn't have 'linked' sooner. ESPECIALLY, when they were struggling so hard to get the details out of a cricitally injured Anders in earlier episodes. Once they installed him in the goo bath, why would they have not immediatley 'linked'?

The hand of God had it all worked out. So in the end, nothing really mattered. Throw all logic out the window, they were all on cruise control with God at the wheel.

Well they wrote it just so. We can Geek pic at it all day, thats why we're even discussing it, but they wrote it off with the God thing.

But I agree, if they could let their pants down in the goo bath, you'd think they would have the minute Anders was put in, except Tory of coarse.

I still think they're all going to be eaten by Lions. :)

The fleet has no idea if any Cavils are left and bent on destruction. That would be an unknown.

I think you might have missed the point of the original post. Racetrack was already dead, and the poster implied that God took a side by causing her arm to move and fire the nukes(thus aiding the humans and hurting the machines).

My point was that God (if he was indeed intervening) only harmed the machines that still wanted war. Of course the fleet couldn't know that, but God has this funny was of knowing EVERYTHING. :-)

My biggest disappointment is the fallout of the mythology of the Colinial tribes and their Pythian Prophecies. God - or whatever you want to call him/it - played a significant hidden role in the series from beginning to end. But the Colonial religion had it all wrong. There was no reconcilliation or revelation at the end about any of that. Guess we have to buy the comic book for that information. They spent umpteen minutes with Baltar and his inane rambling religious nonsense - as bad as any phony TV preacher - but hardly any time at all on the breakdown of their traditional religion that they've been following for thousands of years. There's a ton of stuff they could have done in Season 4.5 that would have been better than some of the awful episodes they did.


I thought they covered that. Roslin burned her book. She went into isolation and disappeared from the public eye. People's frustrations over false prophecies/prophets (well, they weren't really false, but you know what I mean) not only lead to the mutiny, but also lead to Baltar's preachings carrying more weight, and lead to his ever expanding cult.

In regards to them giving up technology...what else would they do? We saw what life was like on New Caprica. It was hard. They were running out of medicine. They were living in tents, despite the presence of their ships. If they were willing to give up their ships in that kind of a harsh environment, why would it be so hard to believe that they'd give up their ships in a much more hospitable place? Why would they keep their ships around? I have no doubt a few raptors/vipers remained though...

Not to mention the fact that the Galactica was dead, so even if the cylons did return, they'd have no real way of defending themselves. What would they do? Just jump in their ship and FTL away? To what? They not only found 1 Earth, but they found 2. What are the odds that they'd find another planet that could support human life with the limited resources that they had (With the Galactica gone, several ships would be without water)?

It completely worked for me. I see no problem, for example, with the folks on the Tilium ship saying, "Frak this, I'm out."

This goes way back to the miniseries?

Little has been revealed about silica pathways, which apparently was a technology in the construction of Cylon "brains." Commander Adama compares silica pathways to a brain of sorts. He quickly mentions the technology as he challenges Leoben Conoy of being a new form of Cylon while the two are walking deep inside Ragnar Anchorage.

Apparently, Cylons are affected by the radiation generated by Ragnar's planetary storm. The radiation effects are not immediate on even humanoid Cylons, occurring within the space of hours after initial exposure. Humans appear to experience no symptoms to exposure.

Adama might have been talking out of his butt by referencing silica pathways (him not being an MD and all), but they definitely established that the Cylons became sick from the radiation there...and they never touched on that again.

I think you might have missed the point of the original post. Racetrack was already dead, and the poster implied that God took a side by causing her arm to move and fire the nukes(thus aiding the humans and hurting the machines).

My point was that God (if he was indeed intervening) only harmed the machines that still wanted war. Of course the fleet couldn't know that, but God has this funny was of knowing EVERYTHING. :-)

That's why stories involving God meddling in human affairs are pointless. God can do whatever he/she/it wants. God nuked the colonies. God made sure Galactica survived, God led them to Earth, God led them to another planet that they named Earth. God made sure that the first language ever spoken on Earth was 21st century English, but then made sure to have that language go extinct only to reappear 150,000 years later. OK, I've gone too far.

A long long time ago, there was to be a new Battlestar Galactica series. Great I said (yes I watched the original BSG). But the I learned that Starbuck was going to be a woman and Boomer a woman and Tigh some old cranky guy and Adama was going to be played by Lt. Martin Castillo (from Miami Vice) and Cain was going to be a women and cylons looked like us.....i just said, well this is going to suck....

Now present time, it's over...and I'm so sad that Friday nights are going to be emptier now....

I've been a regular viewer and seldom poster here, but I've gotten laughs from the posts (some of you take BSG waaaaaaay too serious) There have been some great "debates" and some really interesting guesses on what will come next which added to the whole BSG experience.

I've had my WTF moments and at times said forget it this is not want I want to watch, but I kept coming back just to see what would happen next and now it's over.

Yes it left some questions, but I think that is good in the fact that those questions will help keep it alive in our thoughts so it is not really over. (how many of you still have any thoughts (other than WTF) from the original series???

Good acting, good writing (except for a few episodes) good story, good entertainment that kept you engaged. Anything that both my daughter and I like and can discuss and argue about can't be all bad. And Six...........

Thanks BSG, I enjoyed the ride and look forward to the next ride.....whatever that may be

Sorry I teased you so much, JeffAHayes.

You are a good sport with a larger anus and an extensive vocabulary. :D

You've been fun and enlightening to read.

My friend.

Adama might have been talking out of his butt by referencing silica pathways (him not being an MD and all), but they definitely established that the Cylons became sick from the radiation there...and they never touched on that again.

And that they were immune from nuclear fallout. And they can plug data cables into their arms and interface with computers. And [sometimes] their spines glow when they get frisky. I do have a fundamental problem with something that fundamentally different from humans being able to breed with humans. Interbreeding is hard; the participants have to be very much alike. When they get too far unalike, new species result and interbreeding stops. That's good, because it's how evolution works and that's what's got us all the way here today. If RDM faltered in his mythology anywhere, that's my indictment. That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the frak out of the series, just that that part required a particularly pesky suspension of belief.

In regards to them giving up technology...what else would they do? We saw what life was like on New Caprica. It was hard. They were running out of medicine. They were living in tents, despite the presence of their ships. If they were willing to give up their ships in that kind of a harsh environment, why would it be so hard to believe that they'd give up their ships in a much more hospitable place? Why would they keep their ships around? I have no doubt a few raptors/vipers remained though...


I have a hard time believing that educated people who understand both the pros and cons of technology would simply just give it all up. Some of these people are doctors and scientists. Maybe they'll all think differently when the infant mortality rate spikes and the natives start attacking.

Why would they keep their ships around? Why wouldn't they? Why would they keep a few raptors and vipers but not keep the other ships? They didn't pilot their ships into a star when they went to New Caprica, they just didn't live in them. I wouldn't expect them to live in them on Earth either, but I think its a stretch to think that 30k+ people would agree to destorying them.

Thanks BSG, I enjoyed the ride and look forward to the next ride.....whatever that may be

'Caprica'! Where we'll get more insight into how those frakkin' toasters came to be so grumpy. I will tune in and lap up every word because, frankly, I am RDM's b****. So say we all!

Yes it left some questions, but I think that is good in the fact that those questions will help keep it alive in our thoughts so it is not really over. (how many of you still have any thoughts (other than WTF) from the original series???

Bingo! I haven't been able to get the implications of "Daybreak" and the entire series out of my head. It's the sign of a great storyteller to not only spin an interesting tale but leaving you satisfied, puzzled and thinking about it. And, unlike "The Sopranos" finale (which soured a lot of people toward the entire series/franchise), the ending of "BSG" has only left me hungry to rewatch the entire series because there's nothing in S4 or "Daybreak" (other than angel Starbuck, which I can live with) that feels completely whack or wholy out of place. Timeline/plot/character nitpicks aside (and they're legion if one feels inclined to waste time chronicling them) this entire "BSG" saga hangs together pretty tight and coherently. It certainly beats the leaps of logic and crazy plot stuff from the "Star Trek" series from the late 80's until "Enterprise."

BTW, Universal would be nuts to finance a Glen Larson-penned movie version of "Battlestar Galactica" after the thorough treatment RDM & Co. have given the re-imagined franchise. Can any two or even three hour movie come close to the SFX, character and storyline heights reached by "Daybreak"? For $40-50 million maybe, but why bother? The new series has so far eclipsed its origins as a cheesy 70's "Star Wars" ripoff that it's a shame they even share the same name. :rolleyes:

I have a hard time believing that educated people who understand both the pros and cons of technology would simply just give it all up. Some of these people are doctors and scientists. Maybe they'll all think differently when the infant mortality rate spikes and the natives start attacking.


Oh, I wouldn't worry. If the natives were Neanderthals, as I previously speculated, they got their asses kicked. The cerebral cortex - it's a good thing. ;)

Actually, his response made perfect sense to me. After fighting the cylons in the first war, watching his friends die, what kind of question is that to ask a seasoned soldier? They're essentially asking him if he's the enemy. The fact that the enemy is pure metal makes no difference.

The question is only insulting if it seriously implies you might actually be the enemy. When "the enemy" is a bunch of metallic robots it's absurd to even pose the question. The writers frakked up. Gods know it wasn't the first time.

If they were willing to give up their ships in that kind of a harsh environment, why would it be so hard to believe that they'd give up their ships in a much more hospitable place? Why would they keep their ships around? I have no doubt a few raptors/vipers remained though...

Why NOT keep the ships around? Of course it's a no-brainer to settle on New Earth unlike the decision to colonize New Caprica, which was controversial, not just because of the siren song of Old Earth but also because New Caprica's climate was so harsh and the planet resource-poor. But once you decide to settle on New Earth, why destroy the only means of ever leaving the planet? It seems like the rationale to not only abandon but destroy the ships, as well as the decision to also forego industrialization, is based on the notion that technology and industrialization are inherently corrupting. If that's what the writers are suggesting, fine, whether or not I personally agree with it, it's hardly an unbelievable notion, many smart people have and do believe it to varying degrees, but it does seem at odd with all the talk about how humans and Cylons living together is the path to break the eternal cycle. Humans and Cylons reconciled and together isn't enough? They also have to live an agrarian life?

The part that seems most dubious to me is the decision to spread out all over the world. There's not that many people left on the ships and though the intention is to mate and integrate with the native homo sapien population, you'd think the odds of survival are improved with more people settled together. And though they obviously did keep a couple Raptors around even after they junked the main ships, the Raptors will eventually run out of fuel and become inoperable. Spreading out around the globe pretty much ensured that the different settlements will lose contact with each other. It's one thing to give up cities and industrialization but why would you want to lose contact with the last survivors of your civilization?

The writers frakked up. Gods know it wasn't the first time.

Because Gods know, you'd tell us if it was. ;)

I'm not laughing. Would have preferred something like that, I think. I just don't see them giving up all their tech, giving up being a space faring race, and starting from scratch. But, hang onto that thought 'cause I think that's where LOST might be going. ;)

One can destroy technology, but one cannot destroy the minds who built it.

The knowledge is still on the planet. IMHO

The question is only insulting if it seriously implies you might actually be the enemy. When "the enemy" is a bunch of metallic robots it's absurd to even pose the question. The writers frakked up. Gods know it wasn't the first time.

You have a serious analytical disconnect. If they knew about skin jobs, and knew that they could be anybody - why would that question be used as a control question to elicit a negative response?

It has to be a question that everyone can truthfully answer "no" to.

Not sure if this has been mentioned before but I thought I'd spread it around.

"After Sci Fi Channel screened the "Battlestar Galactica" series finale for the press on Monday evening, there was a brief press conference featuring producers Ronald D. Moore and David Eick, and stars Mary McDonnell and Edward James Olmos."

http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html

This wrapped up alot of questions I had regarding the ending.

Oh, I wouldn't worry. If the natives were Neanderthals, as I previously speculated, they got their asses kicked. The cerebral cortex - it's a good thing. ;)

The doctor has determined that the Colonials can breed with the natives. My high school science is rusty but isn't one of the checklists with being of the same species is the ability to reproduce, which means the natives are the same species as the Colonials, and Neanderthals, while in the same genus homo as homo sapiens, are a different species and therefore can't inter-breed? So the natives can't be Neanderthals. I also think Neanderthals were alive 300,000 years ago - at least according to a quick check on wiki - and were long extinct by the time the Colonials arrived 150,000 years ago.

The question is only insulting if it seriously implies you might actually be the enemy. When "the enemy" is a bunch of metallic robots it's absurd to even pose the question. The writers frakked up. Gods know it wasn't the first time.

I just looked at the scene again and Adama doesn't become angry at the Cylon question. He just gives the examiner a look. It's not even an angry glare, just a look, which causes the examiner to apologize and say he's just asking control questions whose answers is obvious. I think another poster got it right: Adama was just annoyed the process he's being forced to undergo, frustrated by a company that would make him take a lie detector test and answer stupid questions like "are you a machine?" to get his new job instead of believing his word.

One can destroy technology, but one cannot destroy the minds who built it.

The knowledge is still on the planet. IMHO

Well, since we still have trouble getting off this planet, let alone travel to other stars, and can't build machines that look like Tricia Helfer, Grace Park or if you prefer, Samuel Anders, I think it's safe to say that the Colonial and Cylon minds and the knowledge contained within them pretty much died out and never got passed along.

The question is only insulting if it seriously implies you might actually be the enemy. When "the enemy" is a bunch of metallic robots it's absurd to even pose the question. The writers frakked up. Gods know it wasn't the first time.

You're taking it the wrong way. They were asking CONTROL questions - questions that are supposed to be absurd so they can get a baseline for your yes/no response. Since there was absolutely no way for Adama to be a Cylon, it was a good way to get a baseline no response.

The writers didn't frak up, you're just over-analyzing.

Interesting analysis of All Along the Watchtower lyrics. Also gets into the Hendrix interpretation.

http://www.reasontorock.com/tracks/watchtower.html

I have noticed this song used recently in other science fiction/fantasy. Wonder if it has for a while?

It was a wrong interpretation, but not spectacularly so. They were deliberately vague about it. Last night's episode does put it to rest, but you can't handwave away the fact that the constellations matched on cylon Earth. That was more than a little vague. That was either outright deception, an incompetent science advisor, or a ret-con.

You have to realize that if, in fact, the writers' strike had ended the show for good then they would have had no choice other than to declare that burnt-out cinder Earth was the one and only Earth. As it turns out, the writers had to come up with something else and we saw the result last night. But if the constellations matched on cylon Earth then there's no way they could also match on "our" Earth, with all the continents we know and love. It's a connundrum that must be accepted because it is what it is.

As much as I dislike agreeing with Hamburger.....he's right.

Is it not possible that new constellations were named here on Earth and simply given the same name as the previous ones?

As has been pointed out....certain stars stand out within the starfield.

There is no "willy nilly" about it.

Am I the only person who liked the dancing robots ending?

I've read some stuff online after watching the episode, and the one unifying feature of all criticisms seems to be something from tepid tolerance of to seething hatred for the Times Square ending.

I thought the robots dancing to Jimi Hendrix was a funny exclamation point for a show that often hemmed around the possibility that it's story is a pointless cosmic joke perpetrated by a thoughtless god.

I agree.

I thought the tone and content of the Times Square scene was a perfect ending. It was bright but ambigous, like an antidote to the rest of the series. It questioned whether people would ever learn from the past and posited that technology would, in fact, lead the world to repeating history throughout eternity. In effect, a much more open ending than the neat ending in the prior scenes. Very BSG like to me.

What about the dead crew aboard the ship that fired the nukes at the colony?

Was that "god driven" or "happenstance"?

I was talking with my brother this morning about this final episode and discussed that since we were given the backstory on Rosalin loosing her sisters and father to a drunk driver, it would have been a good tie in if the drunk driver would have been Admiral Adama and all this time Adama knew but Rosolin didn't. What a wasted opportunity.

Phooey! :D

As has been pointed out....certain stars stand out within the starfield. There is no "willy nilly" about it.How much do constellations change over 150,000 years?

v/r,
C-F

So the whole starfield thing...and I must say I am probably making this too simple...

The Starfield / Map matched for the First/Nuked earth...that being the earth that they were supposed to find via Toomb of Aethena / Sacred SCrolls etc.

But...I never saw (and maybe I need to watch again) where it was said / implied that the Second Good earth had a match to the star map. I think Kara, the music and the angels were the real destiny to the real "and led them to their End ....of their journey"

The star map led them to the first earth...which matched the star map

The second earth did not...but it was their destiny/end...

Am I missing something...I must be.

The doctor has determined that the Colonials can breed with the natives. My high school science is rusty but isn't one of the checklists with being of the same species is the ability to reproduce, which means the natives are the same species as the Colonials, and Neanderthals, while in the same genus homo as homo sapiens, are a different species and therefore can't inter-breed? So the natives can't be Neanderthals. I also think Neanderthals were alive 300,000 years ago - at least according to a quick check on wiki - and were long extinct by the time the Colonials arrived 150,000 years ago.


Your paleontology is a bit rusty. Current thinking and fossil analysis has the Neanderthals hanging on until as recently as about 30,000 years ago. As a species, they were quite successful for an extremely long time, at least a quarter of a million years. Their habitat didn't suddenly change, they just seemed to disappear, all of a sudden. The rise of the cro-magnums, with their increased capacity for critical thought and spacial skills, occurred simultaneously. Draw your own conclusions.

I thought the tone and content of the Times Square scene was a perfect ending. It was bright but ambigous, like an antidote to the rest of the series. It questioned whether people would ever learn from the past and posited that technology would, in fact, lead the world to repeating history throughout eternity. In effect, a much more open ending than the neat ending in the prior scenes. Very BSG like to me.

You know, the other thing is that it is mythologically consistent with the show's core thesis, constantly vocalized: all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen in Times Square because we didn't nuke Tokyo in 1945.

I mean, BSG pounded "all this has, etc, blah, blah" harder than any show I can remember ever pounded a stated theme of its own mythology.

For BSG to not imply that the cycle had repeated, and had repeated because of the actions taken by the characters, would have been dumb. The only way out of that would have been utter destruction, and Moore has strongly indicated he wanted to end on an up note, so that was ruled out early on in the process by all accounts.

While I think a Hamlet style "everyone dies" ending would have been more literary, I think it would not have done justice to the characters. Particularly, there was no way to do justice to the Bill and Laura love story with such an ending. Although, it would have made Saul and Ellen a more pointed tragedy, I don't know that it would have made very good TV.

I think Moore deserves tons of credit for opting to do justice by his characters instead of the fanboys. Frankly, the show started as a frak you to ToS fanboys and it ended as a frak you to re-imagined series fanboys.

How much do constellations change over 150,000 years?

Far beyond recognition. Even in the few thousand years of recorded history the constellations have moved enough that we're acutely aware of how much they've moved.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, think about it... We evolved from far more dangerous circumstances, where survival was the only name of the game. Our primitive lizard brains still too often govern our actions and its voice gets louder as the stress level rises. How else to explain the horror that men can so easily inflict on one another? How else to explain war? Has there ever been a war where sensible parties couldn't just sit down and work it out, saving everybody a lot of trouble? Why did Billy Stanford keep beating me up for my lunch money when we were kids? We still got a lot of evolvin' to do, my friends.

Maybe that's the ultimate message of this series. We've just got to evolve our way out of this mindset that springs from the deepest, most hidden, most dangerous portion of our minds.

Many religions claim that we have live 4 or 5 different ages of man. Each destroyed and each rebuilt.

I think it is strong in the hindu faith. So.............

Why NOT keep the ships around? Of course it's a no-brainer to settle on New Earth unlike the decision to colonize New Caprica, which was controversial, not just because of the siren song of Old Earth but also because New Caprica's climate was so harsh and the planet resource-poor. But once you decide to settle on New Earth, why destroy the only means of ever leaving the planet?

I agree. I mean, for gawd's sake, a Battlestar is probably worth the entire gross domestic production of the entire human race from the beginning of civilization to World War II!!

I also don't feel that the overt anti-technology explanation was necessary. Technology slips away fast. Look how much of the Apollo-era rocket tech we've already lost in under four decades!

If the old historian's creed holds true, and it truly does take an agricultural revolution to sustain an industrial revolution, then the settlers of Earth 2 (couldn't resist) would flame out just keeping food in bellies.

Also, the total maintenance cost of that technology was probably supported in large by cheap materials found in space, with cheap labor sustained by the benefits of space-based factories (low or no gravity, no heating issues, abundant solar electric power, etc.). Once you take away that advantage, the underlying economics of their technology would collapse in no time flat.

Finally, Lee's speech against technology reminded me of the ending of Mars Attacks where the kid suggests we should all live in teepees instead of houses "because it's better in a lot of ways".

The doctor has determined that the Colonials can breed with the natives. My high school science is rusty but isn't one of the checklists with being of the same species is the ability to reproduce, which means the natives are the same species as the Colonials, and Neanderthals, while in the same genus homo as homo sapiens, are a different species and therefore can't inter-breed? So the natives can't be Neanderthals. I also think Neanderthals were alive 300,000 years ago - at least according to a quick check on wiki - and were long extinct by the time the Colonials arrived 150,000 years ago.



I just looked at the scene again and Adama doesn't become angry at the Cylon question. He just gives the examiner a look. It's not even an angry glare, just a look, which causes the examiner to apologize and say he's just asking control questions whose answers is obvious. I think another poster got it right: Adama was just annoyed the process he's being forced to undergo, frustrated by a company that would make him take a lie detector test and answer stupid questions like "are you a machine?" to get his new job instead of believing his word.



Well, since we still have trouble getting off this planet, let alone travel to other stars, and can't build machines that look like Tricia Helfer, Grace Park or if you prefer, Samuel Anders, I think it's safe to say that the Colonial and Cylon minds and the knowledge contained within them pretty much died out and never got passed along.

By whos' book?

The doctor has determined that the Colonials can breed with the natives. My high school science is rusty but isn't one of the checklists with being of the same species is the ability to reproduce, which means the natives are the same species as the Colonials, and Neanderthals, while in the same genus homo as homo sapiens, are a different species and therefore can't inter-breed? So the natives can't be Neanderthals. I also think Neanderthals were alive 300,000 years ago - at least according to a quick check on wiki - and were long extinct by the time the Colonials arrived 150,000 years ago.



I just looked at the scene again and Adama doesn't become angry at the Cylon question. He just gives the examiner a look. It's not even an angry glare, just a look, which causes the examiner to apologize and say he's just asking control questions whose answers is obvious. I think another poster got it right: Adama was just annoyed the process he's being forced to undergo, frustrated by a company that would make him take a lie detector test and answer stupid questions like "are you a machine?" to get his new job instead of believing his word.



Well, since we still have trouble getting off this planet, let alone travel to other stars, and can't build machines that look like Tricia Helfer, Grace Park or if you prefer, Samuel Anders, I think it's safe to say that the Colonial and Cylon minds and the knowledge contained within them pretty much died out and never got passed along.

Look under the left paw of the Sphinx. :D

A couple of details that I really had trouble with ... how is it that the Final Five had been together for quite a while now yet they never 'linked' together sooner? Was there something stopping them from doing this before they entered the hornet's nest? Also, did it ever occur to the Final Five to offer resurrection to Cavel BEFORE their suicide mission? Did Tigh just realize at that moment that it might be a decent compromise? Are we supposed to assume that Cavel's crew knew what they were doing with Hera and didn't need resurrection plans from the final five until they lost Hera? I think that's a stretch.
There were a lot of stretches after S2.5. Cavil told Ellen he wanted the F5 to have a "front row seat to a holocaust". What was the purpose, then, of the charade on New Caprica? Cavil was pulling the strings. Why put them through that? He tells resurrected Ellen, "I guess that means things didn't go so well with the Mister," but a Cavil - maybe not John - was ON New Caprica running the show. He had the power to release Tigh from prison. He knew then that Ellen and Tigh were F5. Why wasn't he interested in laying open Tigh's brain then to find out the secrets of the resistance? The only reason for a lot of that is that the writers hadn't thought that far ahead. The whole purpose of the New Caprica storyline is kind of lost in the sauce with the way everything turned out. In fact, to my mind, the whole purpose of many different story arcs wasn't to advance the BSG plot as a whole, but rather to give the writers an opportunity to write some more stories. Painfully obvious. "They Have A Plan". Yeah, to stretch it out for 4 seasons when they could have done it in 3.

Ellen never outright refused resurrection tech to John. He just didn't believe her when she told him all of the F5 were needed to do it. Cavil didn't believe her and decided to do maximally painful brain surgery to get the information out of her. Then, Ellen escapes only to find out Cavil wanted her to escape so Boomer could kidnap the child for him. I guess resurrection wasn't so important after all. Until he bargained for it in the final battle. It's a massive stretch to connect all those dots into a cohesive narrative.

So the F5 being willing to give it to him at the end as part of a deal wasn't that outrageous to me. What didn't click was, as you said, why didn't they do the goo tub thing earlier when they all wanted to know about their past lives? Anders wound up being a huge Deus Ex and they used another Deus Ex to get him there. DX^2 if you will. Hey, let's take this brain-dead guy and put him in a goo bath and hook him up to the grid. Voila! Instant hybrid. He babbles, he controls, he sees all, he knows the harbinger of death.

The whole F5 saga just fell flat for me. Too random. And ultimately not as intertwined in the fabric of the backstory as I was hoping for. The F5 could, literally, have been anybody they chose and the story would have played out exactly the same way. If the actor had stuck around, though, I don't think Billy would have been F5. It probably would have been Duala and we would have had Billy-as-President there for the final episode. All useless speculation at this point. I don't know how they would have written it. They probably don't even know.

How much do constellations change over 150,000 years?

v/r,
C-F

From what I've read: Not much!

^^^(ec2546) ... Hate to say it, because I think you've been unduely and unfairly harsh on ol' RDM and his boys on occasion, but that was a helluva' spot-on post.

But that doesn't mean I still don't think it was a remarkable achievement. To expect them to juggle all of those balls in the air and land them all safely and completely coherently was probably more than mere humans could manage. While I'm willing to give RDM, Eick and their team a galaxy worth of credit, I don't secretly think he's...well...robotic. ;)

Agreed.

But let's not encourage him. :D

^^^(ec2546) ... Hate to say it, because I think you've been unduely and unfairly harsh on ol' RDM and his boys on occasion, but that was a frakkin' spot-on post.

But that doesn't mean I still don't think it was a remarkable achievement. To expect them to juggle all of those balls in the air and land them all safely and completely coherently was probably more than mere humans could manage. While I'm willing to give RDM, Eick and their team a galaxy worth of credit, I don't secretly think he's...well...robotic. ;)

From what I've read: Not much!

You need better reading material. Your reading material on star movement sucks big time.

For example, in a few thousand years the North Star will be an entirely different star.

Also, major changes in the visible stars we know have occurred in the last millennium thanks to non-movement issues such as stars going boom and such.

I guess resurrection wasn't so important after all. Until he bargained for it in the final battle. It's a massive stretch to connect all those dots into a cohesive narrative.

Why is that so hard to understand? Negotiations end in weird places even when the parties involved aren't under extreme durress.

Also, Cavil likely figured he was out of chips, and trading a chance at resurrection for the lives of a couple Colonial marines wasn't a bad deal. And, let's be honest: Cavil had already stated that with resurrection he'd gladly take centuries to hunt down and exterminate the human race if need be. It's a good deal all around from his view.

You need better reading material. Your reading material on star movement sucks big time.

For example, in a few thousand years the North Star will be an entirely different star.

Also, major changes in the visible stars we know have occurred in the last millennium thanks to non-movement issues such as stars going boom and such.

The North Star is only relative to our planet and not the solar system.

Stars going "boom" are rare. The big bright stars remain constant for many eons.

I'm surprised at you.

There were a lot of stretches after S2.5. Cavil told Ellen he wanted the F5 to have a "front row seat to a holocaust". What was the purpose, then, of the charade on New Caprica? Cavil was pulling the strings. Why put them through that?

Because he has a sadistic streak and he enjoys toying with people? Think of the perverse pleasure he must have gotten, manipulating, abusing and torturing his creators, knowing that he knew their past but he had wiped their memories. And remember the "charade" of New Caprica was the decision of the other Cylon models, not Cavil. He wanted to nuke the planet and leave. He went along with ruling humans because he was outvoted by the other models. How is Cavil's motivation and behavior a stretch? From what we know about his character, makes sense to me.

He tells resurrected Ellen, "I guess that means things didn't go so well with the Mister," but a Cavil - maybe not John - was ON New Caprica running the show. He had the power to release Tigh from prison. He knew then that Ellen and Tigh were F5. Why wasn't he interested in laying open Tigh's brain then to find out the secrets of the resistance?

Why would he bother? He doesn't care about finding out the "secrets" of the Resistance. If he had his way, he would have exterminated all the humans. No people, no Resistance, problem solved! Aside from the pain and aggravation of the occasional, unscheduled resurrection triggered by the Resistance, maybe Cavil doesn't mind the movement because the more success it has, the more likely he can convince the other Cylon models to go with his Final Solution. Also, experimenting on Tigh would have revealed the origins of the Final Five to the other Cylon models as well as to Tigh himself. Given how little he cared about rooting out the Resistance and how much he wanted to keep the Cylon origin to himself, I don't see what the problem is. The subsequent developments in the show do not contradict or diminish the New Caprica episodes, which are, IMHO, the high point of the show. Nothing they did before or after matched them.

The North Star is only relative to our planet and not the solar system.

Stars going "boom" are rare. The big bright stars remain constant for many eons.

I'm surprised at you.

Try again.

Point by point:

1.a. The North Star is not remotely just relative to our planet. It is moving in space. It's distance from the central gravity of our galaxy is different, and therefore it is moving at a different rate of speed than we are.

1.b. This fact applies to every other star in the sky, also.

2. Stars going boom are in fact not even close to rare. In fact, the lack of a decent, visible supernova event in recent centuries is the exception, not the rule.

Modern astronomy got a boost in part due the fact that the sky was blowing up like a BSG battle scene during the time of Tycho and Kepler. Our lack of supernova events today is good old-fashioned averages cleaning up the awesome party those guys got to see.

The rate NASA states regularly is one good visible supernova per century. Extrapolate that over 1500 centuries, and it makes a difference in the population of the visible sky.

3. Please don't express surprise. I don't mess around about these sorts of matters. Further understanding can be obtained by watch The Big Bang Theory on Monday nights on CBS.

Try again.

Point by point:

1.a. The North Star is not remotely just relative to our planet. It is moving in space. It's distance from the central gravity of our galaxy is different, and therefore it is moving at a different rate of speed than we are.

1.b. This fact applies to every other star in the sky, also.

2. Stars going boom are in fact not even close to rare. In fact, the lack of a decent, visible supernova event in recent centuries is the exception, not the rule.

Modern astronomy got a boost in part due the fact that the sky was blowing up like a BSG battle scene during the time of Tycho and Kepler. Our lack of supernova events today is good old-fashioned averages cleaning up the awesome party those guys got to see.

The rate NASA states regularly is one good visible supernova per century. Extrapolate that over 1500 centuries, and it makes a difference in the population of the visible sky.

3. Please don't express surprise. I don't mess around about these sorts of matters. Further understanding can be obtained by watch The Big Bang Theory on Monday nights on CBS.

NO!

The North Star is changing from one star to another as the axis turns. What used to be the North Star is changing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_star

Here's another:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-135566263.html

Try again.

Point by point:

1.a. The North Star is not remotely just relative to our planet. It is moving in space. It's distance from the central gravity of our galaxy is different, and therefore it is moving at a different rate of speed than we are.



I.a. is a strawman. Every star is moving at a different rate. Ergo: Your argument is null and the rest fall like dominoes.

NO!

Let's cut to the chase...

Are you positing that in 150,000 years, the constellations we outline will still be recognizable?

If so, you are wrong. Worse, you're proposing some sort of geo-centric universe that doesn't obey Newtonian physics.

Yes, the most rapid cause of change in the visible sky is the Earth's own movement. In point of fact, there's this one star that blows them all out on a friggin 24 hour cycle. It's crazy!

But, that is not the only cause. More importantly, over 150,000 years the other causes add up. There are a few stars that have come and gone in the time of civilization because they went boom. There are stars that have moved visibly in the time of civilization.

Within the 150,000 year timeframe, some of the visible stars are going to move completely out of their current constellations, or shift so much within their constellations as to change the arrangement. Some aren't going to move at all. A few new ones are going to appear. A few old ones are going to disappear.

I.a. is a strawman. Every star is moving at a different rate. Ergo: Your argument is null and the rest fall like dominoes.

A strawman in math and physics?

Seriously? A strawman?

What have you been huffing?

Are you trolling me?

Let's cut to the chase...

Are you positing that in 150,000 years, the constellations we outline will still be recognizable?

Yes. I am. The same....no.

If so, you are wrong. Worse, you're proposing some sort of geo-centric universe that doesn't obey Newtonian physics.

Yes, the most rapid cause of change in the visible sky is the Earth's own movement. In point of fact, there's this one star that blows them all out on a friggin 24 hour cycle. It's crazy!

But, that is not the only cause. More importantly, over 150,000 years the other causes add up. There are a few stars that have come and gone in the time of civilization because they went boom. There are stars that have moved visibly in the time of civilization.

Within the 150,000 year timeframe, some of the visible stars are going to move completely out of their current constellations, or shift so much within their constellations as to change the arrangement. Some aren't going to move at all. A few new ones are going to appear. A few old ones are going to disappear.

Enough of this strawman sh*t. You were wrong about the North Star and now you are trying to back peddle.

That's OK. I really enjoy your posts. Honestly.

OK.

Check back through the posts.

I'm starting to think you are nothing but an opinionated *****. I don't know from whence this came, to be honest. Go back and read. I have and I can't figure it out.

Enough of this strawman sh*t. You were wrong about the North Star and now you are trying to back peddle.

You're the one who injected a rhetorical concept into a math and physics argument.

Being obstinate in no way over-rides basic data such as the fact that Taurus is going to take a visual beating over 150,000 years! Taurus in 150,000 years is going to change more than Ben Roethlisberger's face after his motorcycle accident.

Jesus jumping christ...

Blah, blah, blah......

Come back when you have an argument.

Are the constellations permanent?
Ancient astronomers often spoke of the "fixed stars," which maintained permanent positions in the sky. And, indeed, the stars do seem almost fixed in place; the patterns they form look much the same today as they did when the constellations were first named nearly 3000 years ago. But the stars are all moving relative to the Sun, most with speeds of many kilometers per second. Because they are so very far away, it will take thousands of lifetimes to see significant changes in the star patterns. But, over time, they will change. Because of the motions of the stars within it, for example, the handle of the Big Dipper will, in about 50,000 years, appear more bent than it is today. We will, no doubt, keep the same names for the constellations, even if the stars change their positions. Constellations are, after all, products of human imagination, not nature.
---------------

So in conclusion over 150,000 years the stars will move somewhat but many constellations will in fact be recognizable. Some stars may move a lot, some not at all depending on their distance to earth. The North Star argument is a totally different one because Polaris is moving but the more dramatic change in apparent location in the sky is due to a shift in the earth's axis.

Supernovae are possible but like the previous poster said, most of the stars that go boom are not visible to the naked eye unless they are relatively close to Earth as the stars at the end of their lives tend to burn dimmer. Stars going boom happen every 50 years, but the last supernova that was visible to the naked eye was on October 8, 1604. Novas happen every decade or so but a nova and a supernova are two different things, novas happen for a variety of reasons and the star keeps on burning afterwards.

Not to be too pedantic about things (and it's taken me all night to catch up on this thread to SkyLite's 11:10 p.m. posting -- with me posting this beginning at 1:39 a.m., so I'm sure there will be lots in between, but I did want to see if anyone else had yet bothered to say these things)...

Simple, first... I got the impression that Adama wasn't as pissed about the question about being a Cylon as he was about the "have you ever stolen money from a cash drawer" question, and I got the impression the reason he got all indignant and stood up and ended the test at that point was because he probably had done that at some point -- maybe in his younger, wilder, days -- and he didn't want it revealed. Most of us have made some "youthful indiscretions" we wouldn't want revealed in a lie detector test.

2. This is the bigger one, to me. It seems quite a few folks are "perturbed" by the issue of the constellations, and how most of our major Earth constellations were observable from the "other Earth," which would be highly unlikely to also be the same from "this Earth." While I agree with this, in principle (although I also agree this is one of those places where folks are taking things WAY too seriously, lol), there are a three things to consider...

A. In a universe as large and as diverse as ours, who's to say that the same set of constellations couldn't be viewable from two different planets far apart? While it's not likely, it is possible. I mean "constellations" are simply the way we view the allignments of different stars into imaginary forms from a single point in space.

B. There's a 150,000-year time difference between their "Earth" constellations and our current Earth consetllations. As everything in the universe is in constant motion in relation to everything else, and almost nothing is in motion in the same direction relative to other objects, it's also quite possible that the same set of constellations could have been present on that Earth 150,000 years ago as on this Earth today, not, of course, by chance, but as a result of "God's plan."

C. This is the absolute most obvious reason... Because both Kara -- and from the time she was a small girl -- and the Final Five -- and Hera, were all three innately aware of "the song," and both Kara and Hera were also aware of a visual represntation associated with it -- and Kara made the final link that associated FTL coordinates with the notes of "the song," which led them directly to EARTH.

Perhaps after we see "The Plan" my following comments will be chickenfeed, but right now, I think the only two who had a real "plan" were the Baltar and Six "angels," and their plan seemed to work exactly as set forth.

Yes, there still is a bit of a paradox about the two Earths and how the Final Five could have come from the "Cinder Earth," yet the notes from "The Watchtower" translate into FTL code that take the fleet back to "our Earth." All I can say to that is, it was part of "the plan," lol.
Jeff

This pretty much started it all after I stated my opinion that I didn't think stars changed much in 150,000 years.

You need better reading material. Your reading material on star movement sucks big time.

For example, in a few thousand years the North Star will be an entirely different star.

Also, major changes in the visible stars we know have occurred in the last millennium thanks to non-movement issues such as stars going boom and such.

Jesus jumping christ...

Blah, blah, blah......

Come back when you have an argument.

Thank you for lowering the level of discourse.

Apparently an argument is only an argument if it includes hyperlinks as opposed to 7th grade science.

Not to be too pedantic about things (and it's taken me all night to catch up on this thread to SkyLite's 11:10 p.m. posting -- with me posting this beginning at 1:39 a.m., so I'm sure there will be lots in between, but I did want to see if anyone else had yet bothered to say these things)...

Simple, first... I got the impression that Adama wasn't as pissed about the question about being a Cylon as he was about the "have you ever stolen money from a cash drawer" question, and I got the impression the reason he got all indignant and stood up and ended the test at that point was because he probably had done that at some point -- maybe in his younger, wilder, days -- and he didn't want it revealed. Most of us have made some "youthful indiscretions" we wouldn't want revealed in a lie detector test.

2. This is the bigger one, to me. It seems quite a few folks are "perturbed" by the issue of the constellations, and how most of our major Earth constellations were observable from the "other Earth," which would be highly unlikely to also be the same from "this Earth." While I agree with this, in principle (although I also agree this is one of those places where folks are taking things WAY too seriously, lol), there are a three things to consider...

A. In a universe as large and as diverse as ours, who's to say that the same set of constellations couldn't be viewable from two different planets far apart? While it's not likely, it is possible. I mean "constellations" are simply the way we view the allignments of different stars into imaginary forms from a single point in space.

B. There's a 150,000-year time difference between their "Earth" constellations and our current Earth consetllations. As everything in the universe is in constant motion in relation to everything else, and almost nothing is in motion in the same direction relative to other objects, it's also quite possible that the same set of constellations could have been present on that Earth 150,000 years ago as on this Earth today, not, of course, by chance, but as a result of "God's plan."

C. This is the absolute most obvious reason... Because both Kara -- and from the time she was a small girl -- and the Final Five -- and Hera, were all three innately aware of "the song," and both Kara and Hera were also aware of a visual represntation associated with it -- and Kara made the final link that associated FTL coordinates with the notes of "the song," which led them directly to EARTH.

Perhaps after we see "The Plan" my following comments will be chickenfeed, but right now, I think the only two who had a real "plan" were the Baltar and Six "angels," and their plan seemed to work exactly as set forth.

Yes, there still is a bit of a paradox about the two Earths and how the Final Five could have come from the "Cinder Earth," yet the notes from "The Watchtower" translate into FTL code that take the fleet back to "our Earth." All I can say to that is, it was part of "the plan," lol.
Jeff

(1) It could be indignation or guilt, I guess.

(2) No!

(2a) No!

(2b) No!

:D

Who the frak knows. :)

Thank you for lowering the level of discourse.

Apparently an argument is only an argument if it includes hyperlinks as opposed to 7th grade science.

Yaaaaawwwnnnnn!!

There must be a computer program that displays the position of stars from any spot on Earth past, present or future that could settle this question? Google Stars?

I'm sorry, but the movement of the stars is a solid fact. Over 150,000 years the movement of some stars within the constellations referenced in the BSG story are going to have made some ZIP code changes.

Taurus is going to have a serious pair of droopy chest boobs (as distinct from cow boobs) and a very, very big butt in 150,000 years if a determined person insisted upon drawing the constellation with the current stars we use.

I overstated the case on the effect supernovas have on the visible sky. Fine. Score your points.

The truth is this is all because I used the greatest no-no word in the history of the internet: "sucks". You can't say anyone else's anything on the internet sucks, or they will start piling rocks to hurl at you. Primate rhetoric issues trump math 10 out of 10 times on teh intertubezes.

I'm sorry, but the movement of the stars is a solid fact. Over 150,000 years the movement of some stars within the constellations referenced in the BSG story are going to have made some ZIP code changes.

Taurus is going to have a serious pair of droopy chest boobs (as distinct from cow boobs) and a very, very big butt in 150,000 years if a determined person insisted upon drawing the constellation with the current stars we use.

I overstated the case on the effect supernovas have on the visible sky. Fine. Score your points.

The truth is this is all because I used the greatest no-no word in the history of the internet: "sucks". You can't say anyone else's anything on the internet sucks, or they will start piling rocks to hurl at you. Primate rhetoric issues trump math 10 out of 10 times on teh intertubezes.

Meow...

We're done here.

Yaaaaawwwnnnnn!!

I'm judging that's the entire summary of your argument.

More proof that closing strong is what it's all about.

There must be a computer program that displays the position of stars from any spot on Earth past, present or future that could settle this question? Google Stars?

Watch Stargate! :)

There must be a computer program that displays the position of stars from any spot on Earth past, present or future that could settle this question? Google Stars?

Yes, there are such programs. But it's two in the morning, and I'm going to sleep.

For the record, were you to use one of those fancy programs, and extrapolate over 150,000 years, the already difficult to discern constellations would become significantly more difficult to discern.

Yes, there are such programs. But it's two in the morning, and I'm going to sleep.

For the record, were you to use one of those fancy programs, and extrapolate over 150,000 years, the already difficult to discern constellations would become significantly more difficult to discern.

In other words:

The movement of the stars within the constellations would be neglegable. :D

Amazing! I wait more than 24 hours and spend literally hours reading dozens of posts before posting my comments about star movement and constellation shift, etc., only to discover that while I was "catching up" the thread literally caught fire with "nasty talk" about the very same subject(s).

I'm not going to argue about it, because to me it's "all academic." Since we have no way of knowing just where the "other Earth" was supposed to be or exactly how similar the constellations appeared to the oens with which we're familiar (well, there was a brief moment on the show), but still, it's fairly easy to make the "argument" that since constellations are simply how various stars appear from a single point in space (I won't even call them "star clusters" because the varying stars in a constellation could be millions of light-years apart, the same "constellations" could be visible from a variety of different vantage points...

Again, the likelihood of all of the same constellations being viewable from two different vantage points is infintesimal, but it's still not zero.
Jeff

True, Jeff.

However, I'd think they'd have to be in close proximity with one another and not millions of light years apart.

MeowMeow....

Let's be friends.

Whatta ya say? :)

True, Jeff.

However, I'd think they'd have to be in close proximity with one another and not millions of light years apart.

Well, with 100 billion stars in just our galaxy, and 100 billion known galaxies (that's roughly 10 sextillion known stars... 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars, give or take, in the known universe)... So start "doing the math," so to speak...

Frankly, I don't have a clue as to how to even begin to speculate whether or not the constellations we see are even remotely similar from our closest neighbor star systems, such as Alpha Centauri, but my guess would be "NO," that even moving a few light-years in one direction or another would totally change "the view." But with that many stars and that many potential solar systems from which to have a "view of constellations," is anyone going to seriously argue this point?
Jeff

I'm just curious...for the folks saying that them giving up technology is insane...do you think they completely abandoned all technology and just went into the wild with their bare hands? Because if that's why you're saying giving up the ships is insane, then yeah, I'd agree with you.

But they showed us those buildings that Lee and Kara were in. Is it too much to believe that they would have set up similar sites at all the selected locations? Perhaps to store what little medicine and weapons/tools they have? And to give them some shelter while they get their lives up and running? We saw those people walking off over those hills, but we really have no idea as to where they were going. And Lampkin was counting them off suggesting it was more than just running into the trees.

Maybe in the extended cut of the episode they'll fill this in a bit more. Because if you guys are right, and they completely threw everything in the ships and flew them into the sun, including weapons and tools and some safe harbour, then yes, that's kinda out there. But that's just not what I think was done. I think they set up somewhat safe havens from which they could expand.

I don't think I've seen this addressed in any of the interviews. If it was, point me in the right direction. I could be completely wrong, but I was right about Earth. :p

Oh, I wouldn't worry. If the natives were Neanderthals, as I previously speculated, they got their asses kicked. The cerebral cortex - it's a good thing. ;)


I though they must me neanderthals for a second (As soon as they said they appeared to have no speach) but then thought "They are on the wrong continent". But there were several distinct groups of pre-humans at that point so its obviously some other group.

I just cannot imagine 38K people ALL agreeing to give up technology. Especially as the humans of the Colonies seemed just as frail as we are. Meaning thousands of those people were probably using prescription backtion drugs for health issues!

And we also have to accept that not only were they willing to give up technology there were willing to NOT educate their offspring. After all it would not have taken more than a few generations to bring advanced tecnology to the world. (While we know that everyone today is a decendant of Hera, they were assuming they were able to breed with the locals and and of course with eachother).

Fantastic ending. But not without some SERIOUS suspention of disbelief. (Suspention of expectations you would have for being living in the BSG universe of course!)

Wait... I saw this story recently.... Forsaking technology... raising ignorant offspring... OMG THEY STOLE THE IDEA FROM THE VILLIAGE!!!!

I am amazed to the lengths and depths the discourse has reached on this thread. Since I am a relative newbie I will probably be ignored, but I guess this happens when a sci-fi show ends leaving a few issues unresolved so real fans go off the deep end over examine everything and try to apply real science to a ....STORY! I think Moore alludes to having issues with the story in the special when he mentions that he had a kind of epiphany in the shower realizing that it is about the characters. So, their background/personalities become the focus and their motivations drive the story to get to the end result he had mapped out. Tyrol killing Torry in anger when he learns she killed Callie thereby ending the truce resulting in Kara piloting them to a planet that becomes earth. A Cylon killing a Cylon for killing a human which then sends a mixed group to a place where they are willing to live together in peace. Throw in some redemption, hot babes, subtle warnings about the future and Hendrix and you have some pretty frakkin compelling stuff.

Sure glad no one sneezes cuz we might have ended up with 2 heads or ended all civilization. Uh oh, now I may have started a medical discussion. :eek:

I am still buzzing over the ending of the series. Thanks Ron Moore for playing Jimi at the end!:cool:

That's why stories involving God meddling in human affairs are pointless. God can do whatever he/she/it wants. God nuked the colonies. God made sure Galactica survived, God led them to Earth, God led them to another planet that they named Earth. God made sure that the first language ever spoken on Earth was 21st century English, but then made sure to have that language go extinct only to reappear 150,000 years later. OK, I've gone too far.

True, but that's destiny and fate you're talking about there. BSG also has it's heavy dose of free will too. The show was a comment on both.

Jesus jumping christ...

Blah, blah, blah......

Come back when you have an argument.

he's right jim.

Are you going to argue the earth is flat next? (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/&ei=ZkTGSbbZCs-Ltgfb2_nHCg&sa=X&oi=spellmeleon_result&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNEj8czel7fjLq-8byNZMvACRAxySw)

The North Star is only relative to our planet and not the solar system.

Stars going "boom" are rare. The big bright stars remain constant for many eons.

I'm surprised at you.

While the north star, currently Polaris, is an artifact of the Earth's axis precession, constellations change COMPLETELY over tens of thousands of years. Stars exhibit proper motion, their sky motion relative to us. Within a fraction of 150,000 years no constellation would be recognizable.

Well, with 100 billion stars in just our galaxy, and 100 billion known galaxies (that's roughly 10 sextillion known stars... 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars, give or take, in the known universe)... So start "doing the math," so to speak...

Frankly, I don't have a clue as to how to even begin to speculate whether or not the constellations we see are even remotely similar from our closest neighbor star systems, such as Alpha Centauri, but my guess would be "NO," that even moving a few light-years in one direction or another would totally change "the view." But with that many stars and that many potential solar systems from which to have a "view of constellations," is anyone going to seriously argue this point?
Jeff

Your guess is somewhat correct. There would be minor yet readily apparent distortions of the constellations from Alpha C. Bright 'nearby' stars like Altair, Vega, Sirius, Procyon et. al. would move noticably and sistort constellations. Also a bright star the sun would appear in the sky where none such is on Earth. And that's a paltry 4 LY shift.

Download the following if you want to see how the constellations distort over time.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sahjps/astro.html

Well, with 100 billion stars in just our galaxy, and 100 billion known galaxies (that's roughly 10 sextillion known stars... 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars, give or take, in the known universe)... So start "doing the math," so to speak...

Frankly, I don't have a clue as to how to even begin to speculate whether or not the constellations we see are even remotely similar from our closest neighbor star systems, such as Alpha Centauri, but my guess would be "NO," that even moving a few light-years in one direction or another would totally change "the view." But with that many stars and that many potential solar systems from which to have a "view of constellations," is anyone going to seriously argue this point?
Jeff

This seems to be the most sensible post on the subject of "constellations." Furthermore, all of the quotes of "facts" presented so far, assume that we currently actually know everything there is to know about "the universe." This assusmption is cannot be correct in any meaningful way. If the same question is addressed 1,000 or even 100 years from now, there are likely to be "answers" that are significantly different than those posited today.

fafner

This seems to be the most sensible post on the subject of "constellations." Furthermore, all of the quotes of "facts" presented so far, assume that we currently actually know everything there is to know about "the universe." This assusmption is cannot be correct in any meaningful way. If the same question is addressed 1,000 or even 100 years from now, there are likely to be "answers" that are significantly different than those posited today.

fafner

Actually we have known the facts about constellations and their distortions over time since the later 1800s. Stellar proper motion is a well known and easily OBSERVED phenomenon. It's simple Newtonian physics.

You need better reading material. Your reading material on star movement sucks big time.

For example, in a few thousand years the North Star will be an entirely different star.

Why am I delving into this fray? :eek:

But almost 100% of this (North star progression) is due to the axis of Earth's rotation wobbling (like a Top.)

Actually we have known the facts about constellations and their distortions over time since the later 1800s. Stellar proper motion is a well known and easily OBSERVED phenomenon. It's simple Newtonian physics.

My comment was related more to questions like could there be two very similar planets with similar arrangements of objects in the sky. Also remember that the BSG civilizations were far, far greater than ours of today, so they likely had a much more advanced understanding of "the universe" and we have not even remotely caught up to their understanding.

fafner

Also remember that the BSG civilizations were far, far greater than ours of today, so they likely had a much more advanced understanding of "the universe" and we have not even remotely caught up to their understanding.


What's hysterical is that the advanced society somehow never figured out how to build cordless phones or simple radios that didn't distort like hell! :)

What's hysterical is that the advanced society somehow never figured out how to build cordless phones or simple radios that didn't distort like hell! :)

Actually it is a failing of the writers/design team who decided at the beginning of the series to keep things like this to what was "familiar" technology at that time :)

fafner

What's hysterical is that the advanced society somehow never figured out how to build cordless phones or simple radios that didn't distort like hell! :)

They did have cordless phones - Roslin used one in the final episode.

What's hysterical is that the advanced society somehow never figured out how to build cordless phones or simple radios that didn't distort like hell! :)

They had cordless technology. Galactica didn't use it because wired was a more secure method of communication. They also avoided computer networks because cylons could hack into them.

Radio distorsion was caused by radiation in space.

I just cannot imagine 38K people ALL agreeing to give up technology. Especially as the humans of the Colonies seemed just as frail as we are. Meaning thousands of those people were probably using prescription backtion drugs for health issues!

And we also have to accept that not only were they willing to give up technology there were willing to NOT educate their offspring. After all it would not have taken more than a few generations to bring advanced tecnology to the world. (While we know that everyone today is a decendant of Hera, they were assuming they were able to breed with the locals and and of course with eachother).

Well, presumably, there were some people that disagreed. But I think the idea is that the vast majority of folks accepted the return to basics and for those who didn't, what choice did they have? And one has to keep in mind that most people not on Galactica or Colonial One have been living for 4 years with little or any access to such things like medical care or education so living on a new planet without such things is not a change for the worse but a vast improvement.

As for what happened after they landed, it's obviously speculation or the stuff of fan fiction and authorized books. I think Cottle or Baltar mentions that the people they see were pre-verbal; maybe they discovered that the humans on the planet weren't yet biologically capable of language (almost all contemporary theories of language posit a biological component to it) so it took thousands or tens of thousands of years of breeding before the language genes got passed on, by which time, much of the Colonial knowledge was gone. It only took a mere 3000 years before historical knowledge of Kobol got transformed into myths and that was with a civilization that presumably didn't renounce technology after they established the Colonies. Maybe they tried to hang on to the knowledge but they just weren't successful ultimately.

The more I think about it, the more comfortable I become with their decision to start with a clean slate. I think there's a tendency to treat the characters' decision as though the viewers were being asked to give up modern life tomorrow, which is almost inconceivable, as it also would have been for the Colonies 5 years ago. But the show characters aren't making this decision out of the blue but in a context. All the things we think they're giving up, they effectively lost 4 years ago. 20,000-30,000 survivors does not make for a civilization. Their civilization is dead and all the myths and religions and trust in science have been exposed as false or corrupting. They know whenever their ancestors have tried to reboot their civilization on a new planet, it has always led to disaster eventually. So they want to break the cycle and go cold turkey. Is it really that far-fetched? Even saying they're colonizing or settling on New Earth seems wrong because those terms imply bringing their old baggage to a new place and that's not what's going on. Instead of transforming the planet into their image, they are conforming themselves to the planet's. If that means giving up their tech, well, there's not that much to give up and besides, it's worth it.

What's hysterical is that the advanced society somehow never figured out how to build cordless phones or simple radios that didn't distort like hell! :)

Don't knock 'em - took us another 150,000 years to perfect the technology. :)

You're taking it the wrong way. They were asking CONTROL questions - questions that are supposed to be absurd so they can get a baseline for your yes/no response. Since there was absolutely no way for Adama to be a Cylon, it was a good way to get a baseline no response.

The writers didn't frak up, you're just over-analyzing.

I think they frakked up. We disagree. And don't even get me started on polygraph science fiction. They are, you know, complete fiction. In sound unbiased scientific tests they have been proven to "detect" lies with no better probabilty than randomly, i.e. 50%. There are a lot of things that purport to be based on "science" that are nothing more than elaborate fiction. Polygraphs are in that category.

IMO that question would not have been even considered in the days before the fall.

I think they frakked up. We disagree.

If you think they "frakked up", then you just didn't get it. It is either over your head, or you missed something.

You're free to disagree, but you're wrong.

Whoever complained about the fact they spoke English, give it up - that's only done as a convenience for the viewer, did you want a made up language with subtitles the whole series or to start every episode with a language transition like in Red October?

I think they frakked up. We disagree. And don't even get me started on polygraph science fiction. They are, you know, complete fiction. In sound unbiased scientific tests they have been proven to "detect" lies with no better probabilty than randomly, i.e. 50%. There are a lot of things that purport to be based on "science" that are nothing more than elaborate fiction. Polygraphs are in that category.

IMO that question would not have been even considered in the days before the fall.

Why do you even bring up the scientific validity of lie detector tests? The dubious effectiveness of the test is well known - the reason why lie detector results are not admissible as evidence in American courts - and acknowledged even by real life organizations like the FBI, CIA and the military that use the test all the time but it's irrelevant for the purposes of the scene. Asking "control" questions with indisputable right/wrong answers is part of the calibration process. Whether the test works in detecting lies is completely beside the point. Your criticism is misplaced.

I don't know why it's so hard to admit what many others have pointed out: the "Are you a Cylon?" question was not asked because they knew or suspected the existence of human Cylons but because the idea of a human being as a Cylon is so absolutely absurd, it has a clear and unambiguous answer: no. It is no different than if he had been asked, "Are you a zebra?" Or are you going to suggest that if they had asked Adama if he was a zebra, that's proves they knew about the existence of zebras that look human?

There are many legitimate slip-ups and continuity errors in the show. The lie detector scene is not one of them.

Don't knock 'em - took us another 150,000 years to perfect the technology. :)


If they had invented FTL speed, they could surely have invented hack/free encryption technology :)

fafner

- why does adama turn down a free 10 minute lapdance.
- why did they go to a bikini strip club....even with the alcohol they couldve picked a topless club.

Damn! Where were all those strip club scenes during the prior seasons?
Ol' coot Colonel Tigh sure seemed to be enjoying himself. Ellen seemed to be geting hot and ready. Scratch that, Ellen is ALWAYS hot and ready.

Things I learned from BSG...

1. Important problems and decisions are best solved while consuming mass quantities of hard liquor

2. Important relationship decisions are best addressed by first beating the sh!t outa each other

3. Some Angels are like wicked hot!

4. Always use a phone with a cord. Wireless is bad for you.

5. Don't ever make fun of toasters

6. Technology free, weaponless Colonials and Cylons are fast enough to outrun lions

Feel free to add to this important list...

Whoever complained about the fact they spoke English, give it up - that's only done as a convenience for the viewer, did you want a made up language with subtitles the whole series or to start every episode with a language transition like in Red October?

Whoever didn't realize that the English comment was a joke, give it up.

- why does adama turn down a free 10 minute lapdance.
- why did they go to a bikini strip club....even with the alcohol they couldve picked a topless club.

Maybe the top was coming off the next song.

The fact that our Earth sky looked drastically different 150,000 years ago is precisely my problem with how the constellation story angle was handled on this show. The problem is that the previous episodes led the viewers to understand that these were our Earth's CURRENT constellations (names and star configuration). And by current, I mean within the last 5,000 years or so. This would match up on the historic timeline with the 13th colony, etc. So when they turn it around and first say that the cylon Earth matches the constellations it just doesn't make sense. Then they turn around and find Earth2, which is our Earth that clearly wouldn't match the constellations.

So now we are to believe that our ancestors just happened to develop the same constellation patterns with the same names as the 13th tribe who lived on a different planet in a different part of the galaxy, 152,000 years ago? Even when we know that the sky looked drastically different 150,000 years ago when the BSG crew would have passed on this tradition and information? It just doesn't add up.

- why does adama turn down a free 10 minute lapdance.
- why did they go to a bikini strip club....even with the alcohol they couldve picked a topless club.

Because this is Sci-Fi, not Spice.

Maybe the top was coming off the next song.

but it looked like she already had singles.

The fact that our Earth sky looked drastically different 150,000 years ago is precisely my problem with how the constellation story angle was handled on this show. The problem is that the previous episodes led the viewers to understand that these were our Earth's CURRENT constellations (names and star configuration). And by current, I mean within the last 5,000 years or so. This would match up on the historic timeline with the 13th colony, etc. So when they turn it around and first say that the cylon Earth matches the constellations it just doesn't make sense. Then they turn around and find Earth2, which is our Earth that clearly wouldn't match the constellations.

So now we are to believe that our ancestors just happened to develop the same constellation patterns with the same names as the 13th tribe who lived on a different planet in a different part of the galaxy, 152,000 years ago? Even when we know that the sky looked drastically different 150,000 years ago when the BSG crew would have passed on this tradition and information? It just doesn't add up.

I'm an astronomer and this doesn't bug me that much given all the other common sense plot and technical violations. We all love the sound of guns and explosions in the space battles, but...

I'm willing to let this stuff go as creative/fantasy licence.

I'm less forgiving about lack of plot continuity, abberant character behaviour (Lee & the space hooker), booring wastes of time (too many series minutes over dwelling on Baltar's religion), and pseudo intellectual attempts at societal commentary (most all the political episodes - except when the bastids all got what was coming to 'em). The sudden need in the finale to dwell again on the Caprica lives could if really needed have been much shorter. I don't need the memory of Roslyn the cougar.

Harbinger of death = "Bringer of death".

She didn't bring any death on cylon Earth. If the cylon Earth was meant to be where she fulfilled the harbinger of death role, it would mean that you thought she destroyed cylon Earth, which obviously is not the case.

Still though, I liked the ending, I just felt like they copped out on the whole harbinger of death thing unless you really, really, really make some wild stretches.

Or its a prediction of our future.

Dumb question.....

If all these ships can jump "1 million light years", how exactly could these ships not have lost the Cylons chasing them?

Cylon ships can jump also. Plus they had cylons aboard the fleet.

Oh, and God wanted to keep them close and interacting. ;)

Dumb question.....

If all these ships can jump "1 million light years", how exactly could these ships not have lost the Cylons chasing them?

Good question. What Ive been reading is the, They are discounting the distance as exaggeration on their part. The nearest Galaxy to Earth is 2.2 million light years away. That we know, the milky way spiral arms could mask anything closer.