Dumb question.....

If all these ships can jump "1 million light years", how exactly could these ships not have lost the Cylons chasing them?

It became pretty apparent when Boomer jumped directly to the fleet with Ellen that Cavil has known where the fleet was at all times, and was just playing a game of cat and mouse with them. Of course we never got into the technicalities.

33 also supports this idea, but before we thought it was because of plants within the fleet.

per digitalbits.com:

DVD and Blu-rays will feature extended versions of these S4.5 episodes:

A Disquiet Follows My Soul (+10 minutes)
Islanded in a Stream of Stars (+20 minutes)
Daybreak (+20 minutes)

50 minutes....thats like getting over a whole new episode....of course thats if its worthwhile stuff. :D

Good question. What Ive been reading is the, They are discounting the distance as exaggeration on their part. The nearest Galaxy to Earth is 2.2 million light years away. That we know, the milky way spiral arms could mask anything closer.

I've got a million things to do so I can't respond to this now. Maybe later. :)

fafner

One thing I keep reading in reviews is that this was a "happy" ending. I suppose for most of the fleet it was, but for most of the main characters, it was pretty depressing was it not?

On the other side...Boomer died. Cavil died. Tory died. For all intents and purposes, without resurrection, all the human cylons were dead or dying.

The Galactica was dead.

Roslin died.

Anders died alone, and arguably died several episodes ago.

Starbuck realized she didn't know wtf she was and was already dead (Though it could be said she ended up with Anders).

Lee lost Starbuck. Dee. Adama. Roslin. Who does he have now? Romo?

Tyrol lost his wife. His baby. Boomer...twice. Found out one of his own kind killed his wife. And now he's just going to live a life of solitude.

Adama lost the two women he loved most in his ship and Roslin. And also said goodbye to his son and Tigh to live a life of solitude. Or just end it. I'm not really sure.

I suppose the only real happy endings were for Helo and Athena and Hera. Along with Tigh and Ellen. Even Baltar and Caprica had a somewhat depressing realization at their end.

The weather was nice, but it was pretty gray for most of those we cared about.

On the Significant Seven (Six?) just dying out, and ignoring the neat tie in with "Mitochondrial Eve", I thought all you needed was love...

v/r,
C-F

Ellen is humping the Neanderthals.

per digitalbits.com:

DVD and Blu-rays will feature extended versions of these S4.5 episodes:

A Disquiet Follows My Soul (+10 minutes)
Islanded in a Stream of Stars (+20 minutes)
Daybreak (+20 minutes)

50 minutes....thats like getting over a whole new episode....of course thats if its worthwhile stuff. :D
Daybreak part 2 with the commercials cut out ran about 1:35:55 with part 1 total was around 2:20, so add the :20 minutes (if the 2 parts are joined)2:40 or so running time...

On the Significant Seven (Six?) just dying out, and ignoring the neat tie in with "Mitochondrial Eve", I thought all you needed was love...

v/r,
C-F
Well, the Cavil's, Doral's and Simon's don't have any women to love and get freaky with, so they'll just be gone without resurrection.

The 6's, Sharon's and Leoben's at least have a chance at love on Earth.

And I forgot one more, by the end of the show, everyone we knew was dead. O_o

Ellen is humping the Neanderthals.

Frakin hilarious, man!

And I forgot one more, by the end of the show, everyone we knew was dead. O_oExcept the three [angels].

Except the three [angels].

True. Except I don't think Starbuck was the same as the other two head-characters. I think once her destiny was fulfilled, she really was gone.

Frakin hilarious, man!

I knew you'd like it. :)

True. Except I don't think Starbuck was the same as the other two head-characters. I think once her destiny was fulfilled, she really was gone.

And met Anders on the "other side".

And met Anders on the "other side".

Yeppers.

BTW...

Roslyn reminded me of Moses and the Promised Land.

He, too, was allowed to see it but not step foot on it. I think they flubbed that one.

ETA: He, too, was burried on a mountain top, according to scripture.

Well, she just sort of laid on it...not sure how much stepping was done. :p

Now that I'm thinking about it, Roslin was probably my favourite character. A lot of that had to do with Mary McDonnell's performance.

Well, she just sort of laid on it...not sure how much stepping was done. :p
:D

Agreed, moob.

After all is said and done, even though they all brought something special to the cast, I think Tigh, Roslyn and Caprica Six were the strongest during the entire series.

Maybe that was just because of how they were written. They were all good, so I shouldn't even go there, probably. No one could have been left out without the show suffering.

And don't even get me started on polygraph science fiction. They are, you know, complete fiction. In sound unbiased scientific tests they have been proven to "detect" lies with no better probabilty than randomly, i.e. 50%. There are a lot of things that purport to be based on "science" that are nothing more than elaborate fiction. Polygraphs are in that category.

They worked fine on Mythbusters.

They worked fine on Mythbusters.

They just aren't "reliable".

Many companies still use it to screen job applicants.

ETA: And it still works against you if you agree to undergo the test, in good faith, but fail.

Whoever complained about the fact they spoke English, give it up - that's only done as a convenience for the viewer, did you want a made up language with subtitles the whole series or to start every episode with a language transition like in Red October?

You must of missed the part where all of the new DTVs include a universal translator.

Are you saying I should be looking for the Babel Fish logo on the front of my new AVR in addition to Audyssey, Dolby® TrueHD, DD+, and dts-HD™ Master Audio?

v/r,
C-F

I think the point of the "closed system eventually repeats" thing is that there are only so many variations allowed within our nature. Eventually, the same languages, styles, etc eventually come around because of the way we work.

For the most part, we are still those primitive tribal creatures that we were 150,000 years ago. At our core we have not evolved enough to properly handle the responsibility that comes with the creation of new life. Instead of improving ourselves, we pump billions into the creation of smarter weapons of war, including AI. We run the risk of our technology outrunning our capacity to comprehend the implications thereof.

MeowMeow....

Let's be friends.

Whatta ya say? :)

Sorry for the long time to respond on the peace offering. I was enjoying my first outdoor BBQ of the year.

Accepted.

If they had invented FTL speed, they could surely have invented hack/free encryption technology

Have you ever written encryption?

Even in the absolute best case scenario, where you're using the strongest encryption with no stupid flaws (buffer overflows, for example) and all participants are not undermining the system in any dumb way, your opponent can gain an advantage with raw processing power.

FTL technology seems to requires a ton of raw processing power, and the Cylons' FTLs were just plain better. Since the Cylons seem to have much better raw processing power, it's a fair bet they could could easily blow past the Colonials in terms of hacking.

I'd also offer the possibility that FTL doesn't have to be as advanced as people assume. Maybe they eventually arrive at a Unified Theory that allows manipulation of space with something as simple as a big magnet.

Personally, I'm glad Moore's people never indulged the Trekkier tendency to actually explain these things. I loved Adama's frak you to that tendency in the finale when he's telling Roslin how the Final Five goo bath resurrection planning commission uplink works.

For example, has anyone ever read Arthur C. Clarke's 2001 series of books end-to-end? The story veers off badly as more and more explanation is provided. "All these worlds are yours" is way more interesting than actually knowing the nature of the monoliths. Also, the universe of those stories becomes crippled with explanations and retconning to the point that you really wonder if Clarke just was suffering diarrhea of the typewriter.

I think the point of the "closed system eventually repeats" thing is that there are only so many variations allowed within our nature. Eventually, the same languages, styles, etc eventually come around because of the way we work.

For the most part, we are still those primitive tribal creatures that we were 150,000 years ago. At our core we have not evolved enough to properly handle the responsibility that comes with the creation of new life. Instead of improving ourselves, we pump billions into the creation of smarter weapons of war, including AI. We run the risk of our technology outrunning our capacity to comprehend the implications thereof.

Anthropologists did a study of primitive tribal societies (both the historical primitive villages and the "modern primitive" tribes that have had little or no interaction with truly modern civilization). One thing they came to realize was that in truly tribal civilization, human "tribes" tended to be about 150-200 strong. This seemed to be truly universal, so the question arose, how does this translate into modern life -- particularly in huge cities with millions of people. The answer that emerged was that essentially all people have their own "personal tribe" of roughly 150-200 people, but in modern society, that personal tribe may be connected through social organizations such as schools, church, work, civic organizations, health clubs, the internet -- you name it... At any rate they determined that almost everyone will have roughly no more than 200 people they will actually know by name and feel a "personal connection" with, and that this is something going back as far as our species prehistory does.

This thought kept continually running through my head as the Colonists were breaking up and spreading throughout Earth. I kept thinking how it would be "almost natural" for them to form roughly 200 camps of about 200 people in probably 200 different places throughout Earth, which would give a pretty wide and diverse distribution and certainly almost guarantee the continuation of them as a species even in the event their new planet happened to experience major cataclysms -- such as the medium-sized meteor strike in Arizona 50,000 years ago, which likely killed off a good percentage of life in North America, at least.

Similarly, however, with groups of 200, even if they did keep most of the technology they had other than their spaceships, how much of it would last or be sustainable and/or reproduceable through 150,000 years -- especially if they were, indeed, to begin mating with the indigenous population (Cro-Magnun -- Homo Sapiens -- was just emerging about 150,000 years ago). If some of them DID begin mating with the indigenous population, it's doubtful they'd even try to share their technology with them, or explain it... Their brains weren't developed to the point that they'd likely be able to "get it." Those 40,000, or so, amongst however many indigenous people were here, might just become so diluted that eventually all (or most) of their technology and knowledge would be lost.

Again, this really is overthinking all of this, but I can easily see how an advanced civilization that made the sort of choice the Colonials and Cylons made could be "forgotten" and erased over that many centuries... They could have been "diluted." Many of them could have been "eaten by lions" or even killed (and maybe also EATEN) :eek: by the indigenous humans.

Go figgur. :p
Jeff

Sorry for the long time to respond on the peace offering. I was enjoying my first outdoor BBQ of the year.

One of your neighbors pissed you off, eh??

:D :D :D

One of your neighbors pissed you off, eh??

:D :D :D

SkyLite, you're not accusing MeowMeow of being a cannibal :eek: are you??? :p

I mean... barbecuing neighbors is legal only in the more backward areas of some of the more rural counties of some of our Southern states -- and even then, only if you have at least two witnesses to prove a legitimate grievance -- Oh, and just the right barbecue sauce! :cool: (Maurice Bessenger's is on the approved list) :rolleyes:
Jeff

Once it becomes clear that Lions can distinguish between humans and Cylons, and in fact, don't like how Cylons taste, the indigenous locals begin to revere the newcomers.
This will lead to the first successful spin off, "Caprica Six, Queen of the Serengeti". Red Dress replaced with tattered leopard skins. Baltar sits at her side as the "Holy Man". The Angels will appear regularly, giving them tips on which Berries to eat, which Berries to feed to your rivals.

I mean... barbecuing neighbors is legal only in the more backward areas of some of the more rural counties of some of our Southern states -- and even then, only if you have at least two witnesses to prove a legitimate grievance -- Oh, and just the right barbecue sauce! :cool: (Maurice Bessenger's is on the approved list) :rolleyes:
Jeff

Jeff, you've obviously never lived in the really redneck parts of the country. Prosecution in a redneck county depends largely on whether the cops care to do the paperwork.

Once it becomes clear that Lions can distinguish between humans and Cylons, and in fact, don't like how Cylons taste, the indigenous locals begin to revere the newcomers.
This will lead to the first successful spin off, "Caprica Six, Queen of the Serengeti". Red Dress replaced with tattered leopard skins. Baltar sits at her side as the "Holy Man". The Angels will appear regularly, giving them tips on which Berries to eat, which Berries to feed to your rivals.

LMAO, Rick, you think just like I do! They can even have Lucy Lawless guest star in the show as "D'anna: Worrier Cinderess" :p

Once it becomes clear that Lions can distinguish between humans and Cylons, and in fact, don't like how Cylons taste, the indigenous locals begin to revere the newcomers.

One lion eats one of the Sixes. He says to the other lion, "Does this taste too hot to you?"

Jeff, you've obviously never lived in the really redneck parts of the country. Prosecution in a redneck county depends largely on whether the cops care to do the paperwork.

KittyCat, you've obviously NOT looked at where it says I live under my name, nor bothered to consider that I'm a lifelong resident of South Carolina, born and reared here, originally from a much smaller "city" of 10,000 in "the low country," with many relatives who lived and still live in little crossroads such as McClellanville and Manning and much smaller places.

Anyone who saw "The Secret Life of Bees" that was in theaters recently, well, it was set in SC, and the opening part was supposed to be in rural Spartanburg County (I live in Spartanburg County), on a peach farm (Spartanburg County during that period produced more peaches than the entire state of Georgia). The small towns in the rural parts of Spartanburg County can't afford to be like that too much any more, because there's too much "metro area" within close reach, but they very much were back as recently as the 60s, and many of them are still towns of just 1,200 or so residents... I know many of these areas of SC quite well.

I also once traveled to the very rural area of Cajun country to supposedly work on offshore supply boats for oil rigs, but things were slow, so I ended up working for a month for one of the local Cajun bosses (who was like a local crime boss). Trust me, I would not have put some of those folks past barbecuing someone... Nor would I put some in the "backwaters" of many rural, bigoted areas in many states of being capable of doing the same. Where I was in rural Cajun Louisiana, a small town called Golden Meadow, the guy called "Bubba" I was working for 7 days a week, for almost no pay, just a free hotel room and food when they felt like it, also happened to have the sheriff as an uncle. It was told to me on more than one occasion that I was not beyond being "cut in da head" and showing up as gator bait "in da bayou," by a good many different people, and I trusted their veiled references... After a few weeks of that I decided to get the heck BACK to very very much more enlightened Upstate South Carolina, lol.
Jeff

Anthropologists did a study of primitive tribal societies (both the historical primitive villages and the "modern primitive" tribes that have had little or no interaction with truly modern civilization). One thing they came to realize was that in truly tribal civilization, human "tribes" tended to be about 150-200 strong. This seemed to be truly universal, so the question arose, how does this translate into modern life -- particularly in huge cities with millions of people. The answer that emerged was that essentially all people have their own "personal tribe" of roughly 150-200 people, but in modern society, that personal tribe may be connected through social organizations such as schools, church, work, civic organizations, health clubs, the internet -- you name it... At any rate they determined that almost everyone will have roughly no more than 200 people they will actually know by name and feel a "personal connection" with, and that this is something going back as far as our species prehistory does.

This thought kept continually running through my head as the Colonists were breaking up and spreading throughout Earth. I kept thinking how it would be "almost natural" for them to form roughly 200 camps of about 200 people in probably 200 different places throughout Earth, which would give a pretty wide and diverse distribution and certainly almost guarantee the continuation of them as a species even in the event their new planet happened to experience major cataclysms -- such as the medium-sized meteor strike in Arizona 50,000 years ago, which likely killed off a good percentage of life in North America, at least.

Similarly, however, with groups of 200, even if they did keep most of the technology they had other than their spaceships, how much of it would last or be sustainable and/or reproduceable through 150,000 years -- especially if they were, indeed, to begin mating with the indigenous population (Cro-Magnun -- Homo Sapiens -- was just emerging about 150,000 years ago). If some of them DID begin mating with the indigenous population, it's doubtful they'd even try to share their technology with them, or explain it... Their brains weren't developed to the point that they'd likely be able to "get it." Those 40,000, or so, amongst however many indigenous people were here, might just become so diluted that eventually all (or most) of their technology and knowledge would be lost.

Again, this really is overthinking all of this, but I can easily see how an advanced civilization that made the sort of choice the Colonials and Cylons made could be "forgotten" and erased over that many centuries... They could have been "diluted." Many of them could have been "eaten by lions" or even killed (and maybe also EATEN) :eek: by the indigenous humans.

Go figgur. :p
Jeff

I was thinking about pretty much the same stuff. Funny eh?:)

I was also thinking that it makes sense that Hera, and her family line would be the most successful survivors/reproducers out of the group. In the first few years, a large portion of the colonials would die off due to disease they have no resistance to, infections, predators, etc. Hera, and the full Cylons with the humans, would survive the longest of anybody. They're much hardier than humans due to their increased strength/speed and incredible immune systems.

SkyLite, you're not accusing MeowMeow of being a cannibal :eek: are you??? :p

I mean... barbecuing neighbors is legal only in the more backward areas of some of the more rural counties of some of our Southern states -- and even then, only if you have at least two witnesses to prove a legitimate grievance -- Oh, and just the right barbecue sauce! :cool: (Maurice Bessenger's is on the approved list) :rolleyes:
Jeff

Where did you get that crazy idea that you needed witnesses? :D

Where did you get that crazy idea that you needed witnesses? :D

That part was a joke! Everbody knows any good redneck kin find a coupla bubbas who'll witness anythin' fer him jis because... especially if theyz soft on his sister! :o:D:p

per digitalbits.com:

DVD and Blu-rays will feature extended versions of these S4.5 episodes:

A Disquiet Follows My Soul (+10 minutes)
Islanded in a Stream of Stars (+20 minutes)
Daybreak (+20 minutes)

50 minutes....thats like getting over a whole new episode....of course thats if its worthwhile stuff. :D

When will the BD be released?

When will the BD be released?

word is July-ish

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Battlestar-Galacticas-Ron-1004256.aspx?

"I just had an image of someone in their house chasing a bird from the room, I didn't know what it meant but it's an image and let's put it on the board."

Frakin' typical.

Every time this self-important fool RDM opens his yap, he reveals himself for the opportunistic slacker he is. He flatters himself thinking that BSG provided much social commentary of worth. BSG could have done so, had it actually explored the issues it raised, but it went nowhere. His penchant for inserting scenes into episodes just because it would be cool (e.g. Lee seeing the pigeon) provided some interesting moments, but in aggregate ruined the series. The finale flashbacks were gratuitous and an afterthought. (OK, OK I liked the strip club, where was it all these seasons, but that's my failing as a male) Roslyn as a cougar out of the blue typifies RDM's penchant for shock at the expense of character arc.

And yah, I'm shallow enough a viewer that I was able to shut down my rational side and simply enjoy the final episodes as pure entertainment devoid of rationality. Great scenes, once great characters and fine music.

I think they should have stayed with the original scrip. As ego driven as Cavil was, he certainly wouldn't have off himself.
Yes, he was ego-driven, but he was calculating. He chose to simply speed up what everyone knew was the inevitable.

I am one of those watched-the-first-three-seasons-on-DVD-then-watched-season-4-live people. I wish I would have waited. When the show took a dramatic religious turn in season 3, it honestly didn't set with me well. The characters I enjoyed changed...Lee, Starbuck, Baltar...they were completely different people. Battles were non-existent for a long stretch of episodes. The whole Kobol and prophecy thing seemingly disappeared, though I became confused due to the time between episodes. Of course, it was easier to follow on DVD, which is why I wished I had waited as the plot took this deeper turn. But, really, the deus ex machina ending was coming...which is something of a oxymoron statement. They pushed the religious agenda so hard, when it turned out some force of nature and its angels were guiding events, it was okay with me. It wasn't a cop out. I'd like to believe that the "all this has happened before, all this will happen again" cycle IS broken. As I said in a previous post, that's what makes this cycle--the one we see--special.

Then again, maybe the fact we are building robots again, it'll lead to a new cycle...of the Matrix. /gasp =P

I was thinking about pretty much the same stuff. Funny eh?:)

I was also thinking that it makes sense that Hera, and her family line would be the most successful survivors/reproducers out of the group. In the first few years, a large portion of the colonials would die off due to disease they have no resistance to, infections, predators, etc. Hera, and the full Cylons with the humans, would survive the longest of anybody. They're much hardier than humans due to their increased strength/speed and incredible immune systems.

They're stronger/faster, but we've already been show that their immune systems aren't so good.

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Battlestar-Galacticas-Ron-1004256.aspx?

"I just had an image of someone in their house chasing a bird from the room, I didn't know what it meant but it's an image and let's put it on the board."

Frakin' typical.

Every time this self-important fool RDM opens his yap, he reveals himself for the opportunistic slacker he is. He flatters himself thinking that BSG provided much social commentary of worth. BSG could have done so, had it actually explored the issues it raised, but it went nowhere. His penchant for inserting scenes into episodes just because it would be cool (e.g. Lee seeing the pigeon) provided some interesting moments, but in aggregate ruined the series. The finale flashbacks were gratuitous and an afterthought. (OK, OK I liked the strip club, where was it all these seasons, but that's my failing as a male) Roslyn as a cougar out of the blue typifies RDM's penchant for shock at the expense of character arc.


Yeah, and that Mark Twain was just writin' about Huck havin' a swell time on the river; no subtext there. And that Shakespere dude - a lot of sound and fury, and lots of fancy words, signifying nothing. Poser. :rolleyes:

Don't project an inability on your part to appreciate what RDM was trying to do with inadequacy or pretension on his part. Many people saw many things in the show that you clearly missed. Glad you were able to turn off your great big rational brain and enjoy the finale on a purely viseral level though. Everyone should know their limitations. ;)

I'm a lifelong resident of South Carolina, born and reared here, originally from a much smaller "city" of 10,000 in "the low country,"

I've never automatically equated Southern with redneck. Why? Because quite a bit of the South isn't as backwater as the stereotype.

The real redneck America is deep in coal country (West Virginia, eastern Kentucky). There the stereotypes are as true as anywhere on Earth. I'm from western Pennsylvania, and of course we constantly try to convince ourselves we're not the same as West Virginia. Largely by making fun of people from West Virginia, although it doesn't really dull the pain of being cut by rusty objects on our front porches.

I also once traveled to the very rural area of Cajun country to supposedly work on offshore supply boats for oil rigs [. . .] After a few weeks of that I decided to get the heck BACK to very very much more enlightened Upstate South Carolina, lol.

Too funny. You've been to the "murder is too much paperwork" parts of America. They just didn't tell you in such a way.

His penchant for inserting scenes into episodes just because it would be cool (e.g. Lee seeing the pigeon) provided some interesting moments, but in aggregate ruined the series.

"Ruined" is a bit strong.

I'm rather of the opinion that BSG has been sort of like watching you're favorite sports team: you're going to watch some bad games, even in good years. You're going to really wonder "WTFROTFLMAOBBQ!" sometimes. You take the good with the bad and you hope the team's in a position to win at the end of the season.

I'll admit, as I have before, that if they weren't winding the show down I would have bailed by the middle of season 4. If I were faced with the prospect of another four seasons, the show would have bothered me to the point of leaving. But, the promise of a pay-off was good enough to keep me watching ten more episodes.

That said, yes, RDM's approach is flighty as hell.

Yeah, and that Mark Twain was just writin' about Huck havin' a swell time on the river; no subtext there. And that Shakespere dude - a lot of sound and fury, and lots of fancy words, signifying nothing. Poser. :rolleyes:

Don't project an inability on your part to appreciate what RDM was trying to do with inadequacy or pretension on his part. Many people saw many things in the show that you clearly missed. Glad you were able to turn off your great big rational brain and enjoy the finale on a purely viseral level though. Everyone should know their limitations. ;)

RDM is a far cry from Twain or Shakespeare.

RDM is a far cry from Twain or Shakespeare.

TV writing is a far cry from writing novels and plays.

One thing I keep reading in reviews is that this was a "happy" ending. I suppose for most of the fleet it was, but for most of the main characters, it was pretty depressing was it not?

On the other side...Boomer died. Cavil died. Tory died. For all intents and purposes, without resurrection, all the human cylons were dead or dying.

The Galactica was dead.

Roslin died.

Anders died alone, and arguably died several episodes ago.

Starbuck realized she didn't know wtf she was and was already dead (Though it could be said she ended up with Anders).

Lee lost Starbuck. Dee. Adama. Roslin. Who does he have now? Romo?

Tyrol lost his wife. His baby. Boomer...twice. Found out one of his own kind killed his wife. And now he's just going to live a life of solitude.

Adama lost the two women he loved most in his ship and Roslin. And also said goodbye to his son and Tigh to live a life of solitude. Or just end it. I'm not really sure.

I suppose the only real happy endings were for Helo and Athena and Hera. Along with Tigh and Ellen. Even Baltar and Caprica had a somewhat depressing realization at their end.

The weather was nice, but it was pretty gray for most of those we cared about.

I absolutely love this post. I hadn't thought about the finale this way, but you're absolutely right. I think it was certainly the best way to go, though.

They all served their purpose of leading the flock of civilians to their new home.

RDM is a far cry from Twain or Shakespeare.

No kidding. :rolleyes: The point was there is was a lot more going on in this show than the poster could evidently assimilate. Plenty of people have enjoyed Mr. Clemens and the Bard without "getting" everything there is to get. Nothing wrong with that. But to say that when RDM was swinging for the fences he was consistently missing is bogus. He had a lot more home runs than strike-outs.

TV writing is a far cry from writing novels and plays.

Not that far in this case. BSG, like LOST, is a long-form serialized show, very similar to a novel. Think of each episode as a chapter, each one building on what came previously. There is a narrative arc that extends from start to finish and themes are fully realized and fleshed out. That said, there are a lot more limitations and restrictions on TV writing as well. In some ways, it's far more difficult to do what RDM has done than to sit down and hammer out a complete book or play at once, where nobody will see it until it's edited and complete. I consider BSG a masterpiece. Didn't like or agree with everything that happened in the finale, especially the literal deus ex machina wrapup, but as a complete body of work, there's no doubt in my mind it will live on as one of the supreme examples of the genre - for some of the very reasons that poster cited as failures.

TV writing is a far cry from writing novels and plays.

Exactly. So comparing the two at all is kind of futile.

Don't get me wrong, I think RDM has done a great job with BSG, but I think sometimes he is given a bit too much credit. I think it's apparent that he frequently focuses on the short-term, "what would be cool for this episode" planning instead of long-term plot development.

RDM is a far cry from Twain or Shakespeare.

You're right, he's better (given the medium/stories he's trying to tell). :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, I think RDM has done a great job with BSG, but I think sometimes he is given a bit too much credit. I think it's apparent that he frequently focuses on the short-term, "what would be cool for this episode" planning instead of long-term plot development.

Goes back to what I said above: he's still got to make an entertaining TV show that will appeal to fans on all sorts of levels, and he has to make that happen every week or, unlike a novelist or playwright, he won't get the opportunity to finish his work. If the show was all space-battle simplicity every week, as a lot of folks evidently would have preferred, it certainly wouldn't have garnered the overwhelming praise it's gotten, and probably wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. And finally, Moore is a sci-fi geek at heart; he likes cool. So do we. ;)

Not that far in this case. BSG, like LOST, is a long-form serialized show, very similar to a novel.

Unless the novel in question is On the Road, I don't see much comparison between the freer form that TV writing takes and novels.

RDM's main flaw, if we even wish to call it a flaw, is his commitment to keeping the show interesting. Even at the cost of continuity.

Which is actually kind of a funny criticism, considering the one thing BSG was always given points for were great cliffhangers.

Unless the novel in question is On the Road, I don't see much comparison between the freer form that TV writing takes and novels.


If you're talking about the far more prevalent and successful (in terms of drawing eyeballs) procedural format, I would agree with you. But the purely serialized format (they even call it "novelization") is much tougher to do well, and represents the epitome of what the medium is capable of when a really smart guy(s) is running the show. That format is more analogous to long-form novels.

Well I think overall it was a very satisfying finale to a great SciFi series. Ranks right up there with Babylon 5 (probably tops it.) RDM and company have given us 4 seasons of thought provoking scifi and its been a great ride. I really enjoyed the first hour and the 2nd one was good I'm ok with them finding 'our earth.' The NY 21st century scene was a bit over the top and seemed out of place. Would have liked the ending to be the pullout shot of Adama by Rosilin's grave on the mountain top.
I feel most questions were wrapped up decently (exceptions below.) I really liked RDM's tribute to the classic series. With the theme music as the ships headed into the sun. Also setting up the original's premise quite nicely.

"There are those who believe that life here began out there, far across the universe, with tribes of humans who may have been the forefathers of the Egyptians, or the Toltecs, or the Mayans. That they may have been the architects of the great pyramids, or the lost civilizations of Lemuria or Atlantis. Some believe that there may yet be brothers of man who even now fight to survive somewhere beyond the heavens..."

We have a bit of ancient astronaut theory here where the colonists with their knowledge help humanity's cultural evolution. I'm betting that 'map' Adama has of all the settlements points to a few places like Stonehenge, Egypt, Atlantis (near Gibraltar maybe?), Mayan and Aztec ancient cities etc.

But where did the colonists' descendants go? Here's where the importance of Hera comes in (and mitochondrial Eve). Really liked this connection as it tells us we know why Hera was important for humanity (for the cylons we already knew they needed her to dissect and find out how to reproduce.) It does require some detail which may be fleshed out in the comic. With 38k colonists settling all over the planet and reproducing...you'd think a GREAT majority of their descendants (ie totally human) would survive. But the case is only Hera's make up modern mankind. My guess is her hybrid DNA allows her descendants to survive (natural selection) some type of world wide cataclysm (disease most likely) that wiped out all the colonists' descendents (and Atlantis, Mayans etc.)

What I didn't like was the revelation (or lack thereof) of the religious angle (angels and Starbuck in particular.) I was somewhat surprised RDM took this route but I really appreciate his attempt to ask some great provoking questions about faith. But his solution is too simple and open-ended (has he hung around Lucas lately...heck I was waiting for Baltar to shout 'the midichlorians did it!' ;) God is whittled down to some 'force', neither good/evil (very Eastern religious thought here....yinyang; whole cycle=Hindu as people have pointed out.) But yet he brings in angels (demons?) and the concept of resurrection with Starbuck which is from Western tradition. The Watchtower notes were Earth's location - only answer to this is divine intervention. Starbuck - divine intervention. The nukes firing - maybe divine intervention. I'm ok with that...with a divine that is concerned for humanity and His creation. Not some impersonal force. The mishmash that RDM presents attempts to satisfy all...but ends up satisfying none.

Yeah, and that Mark Twain was just writin' about Huck havin' a swell time on the river; no subtext there. And that Shakespere dude - a lot of sound and fury, and lots of fancy words, signifying nothing. Poser. :rolleyes:

Don't project an inability on your part to appreciate what RDM was trying to do with inadequacy or pretension on his part. Many people saw many things in the show that you clearly missed. Glad you were able to turn off your great big rational brain and enjoy the finale on a purely viseral level though. Everyone should know their limitations. ;)

Ah, the oh so superior attitude that pretentious supporters of RDM's hacks exude. Haven't seen that since college lit classes. The slacker admits repeatedly that he just inserts stuff just cause it's cool. So much for all the real posers reading mythic significance into the pigeon. So much for the whole Final Five bit as he and the crew scrambled to randomly pick the Five after the fact. I confess that I did like his last minute choices, esp Tigh and Ellen.

I guess only some of us see the ultimate irony in "and they have a plan."

"Ruined" is a bit strong.

I'm rather of the opinion that BSG has been sort of like watching you're favorite sports team: you're going to watch some bad games, even in good years. You're going to really wonder "WTFROTFLMAOBBQ!" sometimes. You take the good with the bad and you hope the team's in a position to win at the end of the season.

I'll admit, as I have before, that if they weren't winding the show down I would have bailed by the middle of season 4. If I were faced with the prospect of another four seasons, the show would have bothered me to the point of leaving. But, the promise of a pay-off was good enough to keep me watching ten more episodes.

That said, yes, RDM's approach is flighty as hell.

You're right, "ruined" was over the top. I like your analogy.

If you're talking about the far more prevalent and successful (in terms of drawing eyeballs) procedural format, I would agree with you. But the purely serialized format (they even call it "novelization") is much tougher to do well, and represents the epitome of what the medium is capable of when a really smart guy(s) is running the show. That format is more analogous to long-form novels.

The big problem/difficulty with serialization is you have no idea how long the show is going to run. Take the old nighttime soaps like Dallas it ran over 10 years. When the suits tell you you have another season so go start writing.

How do you create the big picture story arc. All you can do is create a seasonal arc because that is all you know.

After a while all they cna do is create more mysterious characters or have one arc transition into another. 24 has learned to this within a season. essentially 4 terrorist stories that are weaved together. 24 doesn't try to weave seasons together.

Lost had an advantage in that they worked a deal with ABC to say we are going to wrap it up in 3 years. However if the ratings really went up you can bet ABC would hey want some more years out of you and that would have royally messed up their carefully planned arc.

In all a great series. I will really miss it. Let's hope someone comes up with something this good real soon.

The F5 could, literally, have been anybody they chose and the story would have played out exactly the same way. probably because thats what the writers did. They sat down and picked them. they didnt know at the start who the F5 were and thats why it doeesnt tie in as strongly as you would like.

The fact that our Earth sky looked drastically different 150,000 years ago is precisely my problem with how the constellation story angle was handled on this show.


And here's my problem with people obsessing over the constellation issue.

You are all just po'd because RM and company didn't make it "easy" for you to figure out the end game 3 seasons ago.

(Despite the fact that was rather obvious ... and many folks guessed pretty darn close to the ending long ago ... ok maybe so maybe not the Head-6, Head-Baltar so-called "Angels" strolling down the streets of Manhatten part.) ;) :D

Give it a rest ... you were just duped, rope-a-doped, whatever ... get over it. :)

In all a great series. I will really miss it. Let's hope someone comes up with something this good real soon.

From Fredfa's "Hot Off The Press" thread at the top of the 'HDTV Programming' Page:

TV Notes
Sci Fi orders 'Phantom,' 'Riverworld,' 'Alice'
From James Hibberd's Hollywood Reporter 'Live Feed' Blog - March 23, 2009

So what's going to take the place of "Battlestar Galactica"?

Sci Fi Channel has few ideas.

The network-soon-to-be-known-as SyFy has greenlighted a trio of miniseries fantasy projects, including two that will serve as potential series pilots, and two of which are based on well-known classic titles.

Sci Fi has ordered a retelling of "Alice in Wonderland"; a fresh take on the comic-book hero "The Phantom"; and "Riverworld," from a series of fantasy books by Philip Jose Farmer. All the projects are four-hour movies from prolific production company RHI Entertainment.

"Riverworld," about a photojournalist transported to a mysterious world occupied by everyone who has ever lived on Earth, and "Phantom" will air as backdoor pilots (titles under consideration for a series order contingent on drawing a large enough audience). It's the programming model the network has used with success before, as in the case of "Battlestar."

"The four-hour format allows us to command large dollars around the world for our shows that puts about ($4 million-$6 million) of production on the screen per hour," said Robert Halmi Jr., president and CEO of RHI entertainment. "It gives the network a chance to try a concept with the same production values, if not better, than you'd get for a series."

The new "Alice" promises to be different than previous incarnations (more than a couple of which were produced by RHI). The project is written and directed by Nick Willing, who also did Sci Fi's highly rated "Wizard of Oz" revamp "Tin Man."

"We thought 'Alice' was the perfectly underlying material to tell a classic story with a modern twist," Halmi said. "We'll have new incredible worlds and a more grown-up feel."

Sci Fi Channel executive vp original programming Mark Stern pointed out that weaknesses in the original "Alice" story, which often was more about the passing scenery than character development, allow for more leeway and modernization than most fantasy tales.

"Lewis Carroll was more concerned about politics and satire then telling a mythological story," Stern said. "You're not really engaged with Alice in a proactive and emotionally fulfilling way."

"Phantom" has been adapted a few times without much success, but Halmi said the previous stumbles are a good reason to try again.

"That there hasn't been a successful 'Phantom' leaves the door wide open for us, since nobody has made it their own yet," Halmi said.

Sci Fi appreciates that the crusader doesn't have superpowers and is more in the grounded vein of Iron Man and Batman. "It's not a guy in purple tights," Stern said.

"Riverworld" is considered to have the most series potential if producers pull off the novel's tricky combination mixing a modern protagonist with reborn historical figures.

"'Riverworld' has a little bit of everybody's' idea of heaven and everybody's hell," Halmi said of the setting.

Characters in the story's world will be portrayed by actors in their 20s, so somebody like Napoleon wouldn't be "a balding man with his hand in his coat."

"Part of the fun of this is the reveal of who each character is," said Stern, whose network previously took a crack at a "Riverworld" pilot some years ago.

"Alice" is planned for the winter; "Riverworld" and "Phantom" come out next year. RHI also is doing "Meteor" and "The Storm" for NBC in the summer. The Sci Fi backdoor pilots are part of RHI's effort to expand from movies to series programming.

"They're one of the few production companies that are still doing longform and really doing it well," Stern said. "They have an economic model that most of us are mystified about, the way they're able to fund their shows and make a deal very attractive for us."

http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/03/sci-fi-phantom-riverworld-alice.html

TV Notes
Sci Fi orders 'Phantom,' 'Riverworld,' 'Alice'
From James Hibberd's Hollywood Reporter 'Live Feed' Blog - March 23, 2009

"Part of the fun of this is the reveal of who each character is," said Stern, whose network previously took a crack at a "Riverworld" pilot some years ago.


I remember it as not being very good. On the other hand, a couple of years ago they did a fascinating mini about a mysterious motel room with strange objects having mystical powers that was very well regarded, as I recall. Loads of potential. What happened to that project?

But where did the colonists' descendants go? Here's where the importance of Hera comes in (and mitochondrial Eve). Really liked this connection as it tells us we know why Hera was important for humanity (for the cylons we already knew they needed her to dissect and find out how to reproduce.) It does require some detail which may be fleshed out in the comic. With 38k colonists settling all over the planet and reproducing...you'd think a GREAT majority of their descendants (ie totally human) would survive. But the case is only Hera's make up modern mankind. My guess is her hybrid DNA allows her descendants to survive (natural selection) some type of world wide cataclysm (disease most likely) that wiped out all the colonists' descendents (and Atlantis, Mayans etc.)

We don't know any of that. The only thing we know is that Hera's were the earliest FOUND remains directly related, anything else is pure speculation.

Not that far in this case. BSG, like LOST, is a long-form serialized show, very similar to a novel. Think of each episode as a chapter, each one building on what came previously. There is a narrative arc that extends from start to finish and themes are fully realized and fleshed out. That said, there are a lot more limitations and restrictions on TV writing as well. In some ways, it's far more difficult to do what RDM has done than to sit down and hammer out a complete book or play at once, where nobody will see it until it's edited and complete. I consider BSG a masterpiece. Didn't like or agree with everything that happened in the finale, especially the literal deus ex machina wrapup, but as a complete body of work, there's no doubt in my mind it will live on as one of the supreme examples of the genre - for some of the very reasons that poster cited as failures.

Goes back to what I said above: he's still got to make an entertaining TV show that will appeal to fans on all sorts of levels, and he has to make that happen every week or, unlike a novelist or playwright, he won't get the opportunity to finish his work. If the show was all space-battle simplicity every week, as a lot of folks evidently would have preferred, it certainly wouldn't have garnered the overwhelming praise it's gotten, and probably wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. And finally, Moore is a sci-fi geek at heart; he likes cool. So do we. ;)

Groucho, no offense but have you ever written for TV and/or written a novel? There really is no point in even comparing the two. It would be like saying that its easier to hit a major league homerun off a 95 mph fastball than it is to catch a TD pass in the NFL. Both take amazingly talented people to do it well. That's about all that needs to be said.

And here's my problem with people obsessing over the constellation issue.

You are all just po'd because RM and company didn't make it "easy" for you to figure out the end game 3 seasons ago.

(Despite the fact that was rather obvious ... and many folks guessed pretty darn close to the ending long ago ... ok maybe so maybe not the Head-6, Head-Baltar so-called "Angels" strolling down the streets of Manhatten part.) ;) :D

Give it a rest ... you were just duped, rope-a-doped, whatever ... get over it. :)

No, its not a dupe if it doesn't add up. Its just bad story telling (this part, not the entire series). I was looking for the opposite of "easy" ... I was hoping for a logical explanation within the construct of their original story. I had NO CLUE what the ending would be, because leading up to the finale, nothing seemed to logically make sense anymore. In my opinion, they went with the Easiest of all Easy endings ... GOD DID IT. And yes, I understand that this season was all about 'Nothing makes sense anymore' for all of the characters. I just didn't find it very compelling TV after about two episodes dealing with the same theme over and over. And 30 minutes into the finale, after I gave up on a logical ending, I very much enjoyed the finale.

Contrast this to the current season of LOST where I'm absolutely amazed each week that the writers are able to stick to the rules within the world they've created. Before this season, I definitely would have said BSG was my favorite show ever ... now there is no question that I'd choose LOST.

If you're talking about the far more prevalent and successful (in terms of drawing eyeballs) procedural format, I would agree with you. But the purely serialized format (they even call it "novelization") is much tougher to do well, and represents the epitome of what the medium is capable of when a really smart guy(s) is running the show. That format is more analogous to long-form novels.

I completely agree with you on this one. As much as I was annoyed by Season 4, I still think Moore and the rest of his team did an amazing job on this show. Its just unfortunate that Networks don't allow more shows like LOST that were able to negotiate an end-date far in advance.

Groucho, no offense but have you ever written for TV and/or written a novel? There really is no point in even comparing the two. It would be like saying that its easier to hit a major league homerun off a 95 mph fastball than it is to catch a TD pass in the NFL. Both take amazingly talented people to do it well. That's about all that needs to be said.


Well, I agree. All I was saying was that the long-form serialized TV format is analogous to the long-form novel; there are many similarities in the construction of each. You could take the analogy one step further and say procedurals are similar to short stories. Really short stories. ;) Of the two, serialized is tougher to do well, just as novels are tougher to do than short stories, by and large.

If you're talking about the far more prevalent and successful (in terms of drawing eyeballs) procedural format, I would agree with you. But the purely serialized format (they even call it "novelization") is much tougher to do well, and represents the epitome of what the medium is capable of when a really smart guy(s) is running the show. That format is more analogous to long-form novels.

I'm not going to deeply disagree. But, I am going to disagree.

One, because writing is up to whoever has the most influence. Particularly in RDM's case, he seems to let everyone involved have some input (for example, blogs say that Cavil's death was the one Dean Stockwell recommended).

I'd imagine there are show runners who approach it like novelists. I would also suspect those show runners end up pissing off a lot of people and have a hard time wrangling good people to make good shows.

And there's where I think the other critical difference occurs.

When writing a book, only a handful of people get input, and only for a limited time. Obviously, besides the novelist, the editor wields the biggest veto.

Conversely, a TV show is under constant revision, even as it is being shot. Sometimes an idea works well on paper and falls apart on film. Sometimes an actor does something surprising with a character. Sometimes you end up with found art because of some weird accident.

Heck, even the audience enhances the show. For example, RDM all but said that Daniel is a retcon to fix the numbering of the Cylons and provides a Cain and Abel story for Cavil. Fans took Daniel a loooong way further. If there had been a fifth season, you could be all but assured they would have revisited the fan reaction to Daniel.

I just don't see how that process is similar to writing a novel.

In all a great series. I will really miss it. Let's hope someone comes up with something this good real soon.

I'm certainly going to give Caprica a try.

I'm not going to deeply disagree. But, I am going to disagree.

I just don't see how that process is similar to writing a novel.

I've covered the similarities as I see them in my previous posts on the subject. I don't disagree with any of your comments about dissimilarities either, as all are valid and I've even mentioned some of them myself. I think this discussion is veering away from my initial premise: long-form serialized TV is similar in format to long-form novels. Identical? No. Similar? Yes. Better than procedurals? Good Heavens, yes, by and large. But that's just me.

I'm certainly going to give Caprica a try.

I'm concerned about the show. As with the Star Wars prequels, we know how this story ends (sort of). So other than the action sequences, there wasn't much for me in those movies. I found the 3rd to be the best.

I am interested in seeing The Plan however, as that's a side of the story we haven't seen.

4. Always use a phone with a cord. Wireless is bad for you.


Which it was referred as "The wireless"

No, its not a dupe if it doesn't add up. Its just bad story telling (this part, not the entire series). I was looking for the opposite of "easy" ... I was hoping for a logical explanation within the construct of their original story. I had NO CLUE what the ending would be, because leading up to the finale, nothing seemed to logically make sense anymore. In my opinion, they went with the Easiest of all Easy endings ... GOD DID IT. And yes, I understand that this season was all about 'Nothing makes sense anymore' for all of the characters. I just didn't find it very compelling TV after about two episodes dealing with the same theme over and over. And 30 minutes into the finale, after I gave up on a logical ending, I very much enjoyed the finale.
Contrast this to the current season of LOST where I'm absolutely amazed each week that the writers are able to stick to the rules within the world they've created. Before this season, I definitely would have said BSG was my favorite show ever ... now there is no question that I'd choose LOST.

Let me defend RDM's Deus Ex Machina ending. :eek: Actually, the non physical, mystical ending was well set up right from the 1st season. Constant references to god(s) ran through the series. Even though I attributed head Six to psychological trauma from realizing you destroyed humanity for a Lewinski, the supernational explanation was pre-established as a possibility. In retrospect, RDM cleverly hid the Angels in plain sight, that is assuming that he knew that from the beginning.

That said, nobody could have a clue about the ending because it was what it was on a recent RDM whim, not a consequence of the story arc. I agree that suspension of critical thinking is a must for the finale and in my view, for the last couple seasons. I thought that the last episodes were very entertaining once I knew chaos was inevitable and layed back and enjoyed it.

BSG started out with more intriguing mysteries and certainly more substantive issues than LOST began with, but after season 2 it was clear to me that BSG wasn't in the same league as LOST. BSG substituted pretentious and superficial storylines related to current issues but failed to have anything of substance to say. A higher goal than LOST but a complete failure. Despite its ups and downs LOST has delivered a better ever growing story arc, better more consistent and rational character development and far better science fiction. One series key you mentioned is that the LOST writers have remained internally consistent to their universe vs changing people's behaviours and events on weekly "that's cool!" whims.

Although many of us discussed early on the possibility of them reaching a prehistoric Earth - leading up to the finale, I was thinking that it would be cool if they found a near-future Earth and were attacked by an automated defense system and unmanned drones. Then Galactica would nuke the hell out of our (seemingly mechanical run) planet only to later discover that it was fully populated by humans. :D

Conversely, a TV show is under constant revision, even as it is being shot. Sometimes an idea works well on paper and falls apart on film. Sometimes an actor does something surprising with a character. Sometimes you end up with found art because of some weird accident.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/lost/images/thumb/3/30/BenLinus.jpg/270px-BenLinus.jpg

This guy (Michael Emerson) was supposed to be on a couple of "Lost" episodes as a guest star. When the writers/producers saw what they had on their hands they re-wrote whatever they had planned and stuck this character in (for the betterment of the show). Ditto for the Nikki/Paolo thing but in reverse: they washed themselves off unpopular new characters and gave Losties a memorable stand-alone episode Alfred Hitchcock himself would have been proud of (since the "Lost" writers stole the 'twist' from his 50's anthology show :D).

If you're going to get on RDM's case for going 'on a whim' too often then you also have to be mad at "Lost" because those guys were doing the same thing for almost three years. It isn't until they agreed with ABC to end the series at 100 episodes three years down the road that "Lost" gained storyline/continuity momentum.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/lost/images/thumb/3/30/BenLinus.jpg/270px-BenLinus.jpg

This guy (Michael Emerson) was supposed to be on a couple of "Lost" episodes as a guest star. When the writers/producers saw what they had on their hands they re-wrote whatever they had planned and stuck this character in (for the betterment of the show). Ditto for the Nikki/Paolo thing but in reverse: they washed themselves off unpopular new characters and gave Losties a memorable stand-alone episode Alfred Hitchcock himself would have been proud of (since the "Lost" writers stole the 'twist' from his 50's anthology show :D).

If you're going to get on RDM's case for going 'on a whim' too often then you also have to be mad at "Lost" because those guys were doing the same thing for almost three years. It isn't until they agreed with ABC to end the series at 100 episodes three years down the road that "Lost" gained storyline/continuity momentum.

Ben was a little bit different, though. His character wasn't so much added to the mythology, as it was merged with an as-yet-unseen Other-in-charge. So they already had the mythology in place of what Ben became.

I'm concerned about the show. As with the Star Wars prequels, we know how this story ends (sort of). So other than the action sequences, there wasn't much for me in those movies. I found the 3rd to be the best.

I am interested in seeing The Plan however, as that's a side of the story we haven't seen.

Knowing how the story ends isn't necessarily a bad thing. As long as the Caprica story isn't a prequel to the BSG story ... and from what I've seen, it isn't. It looks like a story about two families on Caprica that just happens to occur before the Cylon War.

Titanic wasn't so much a story about a sinking sink as it was a story about two young people in love. And that story won an Oscar.

I'll give Caprica a shot.

I do agree that The Plan looks awfully interesting. Any opportunity to see more of Six is OK by me.

ft

BTW, I know that there will never be consensus on the Kara issue, but is there a consolidated list of theories as to what happened to Kara? I've looked through the Battlestar Wiki and there's more questions than answers. Has someone attempted to compile a list of theories? Not that I'm volunteering ...

My personal opinion (based on the fact that deep down, I'm a romantic) is that Kara stayed on board Galactica with Sam as they drifted into the Sun.

I'm concerned about the show. As with the Star Wars prequels, we know how this story ends (sort of). So other than the action sequences, there wasn't much for me in those movies. I found the 3rd to be the best.

I am interested in seeing The Plan however, as that's a side of the story we haven't seen.

The Star Wars prequels could have been great, with a different writer and director (sorry, George). For me, knowing the outcome didn't matter. Like someone said, it's the journey that's most interesting.

I have hopes for Caprica because of the writers and directors (assuming many/most are coming over from BSG).

Totally loved the show. I'm happy with the ending.

Thanks to BSG we have "Pulpit Actuals" in our mill.

For me, knowing the outcome didn't matter. Like someone said, it's the journey that's most interesting.



LOL I get that, people tend to oversimplify things when I bring up this topic.

But it's difficult for me to invest in fictional characters whose fates I already know. For example, Jack and Rose. of course we know right away that Rose lives (she's telling the story). But Jack's fate isn't revealed until the end of the movie. THAT's what keeps you on the edge of your seat...right up until Rose promises to Never Let Go...and then promptly does (yes I'm joking, she didn't mean it Literally) :-)


Of course I'll be watching the full run of Caprica, just as I lined up to watch all 3 Star Wars prequels. But getting other people to watch might be difficult.

This James Hibberd guy sure is busy with Sci-Fi Channel stories lately. From Fredfa's "Hot Off The Press" thread at the top of the 'HDTV Programming' page:

TV Notes
Sci Fi Channel founder bashes name change
From James Hibberd's Hollywood Reporter 'Live Feed' Blog - March 23, 2009

A co-founder of the Sci Fi Channel is taking offense at NBC Universal's plan to change the network's name.

"SyFy, say it's not so!" writes channel originator Mitch Rubenstein. "What would Isaac [Asimov] have said if the name was instead SyFy Channel? He would have said (we believe): 'That's just plain dumb.'"

Rubenstein, along with his partner Laurie Silvers, were Boca Raton entrepreneurs who conceived of a sci-fi themed cable network, then sold the concept to USA Network in 1991.

Rubenstein and Silvers now own Hollywood.com, where he posted the protest yesterday. The rest of Rubenstein's open letter gives you a pretty clear sense of sci-fi community sensitivity, and if anything should comfort the cable network's executives that this too shall pass. Back in the early '90s, apparently even calling a network the Sci Fi Channel was met with outrage.

You see, there's SF and then there's sci fi -- the former SF is hard science fiction, characterized by factual attention to detail (Arthur C. Clarke, etc.), whereas purists considered the latter sci-fi to be silly stories about wookies. It seems when Rubenstein first announced the channel, hardcore genre fans insisted the channel be called the "SF Channel," but some argued that drawing a broader audience was more important (sound familiar?).

From his letter:

Laurie and I presented the concept of a 24-hour cable TV network dedicated to science fiction to a packed room of SF writers at the Science Fiction Writers of America meeting.

The writers were not happy — and that's an understatement. They said they wouldn't watch it. They would oppose it unless we called it the SF Channel because calling it "Sci Fi Channel" was a put-down to the SF genre, as "sci-fi" is slang for SF and science fiction — and a huge mistake. And I said if we called it the SF Channel, people would think it's about the city of San Francisco.

I was booed.

Then Isaac started to speak and said that the name had to be Sci Fi Channel and not the SF Channel in order to draw a wide, diverse audience and be successful. To be in a financial position to acquire and produce the best programming. That's really what counts, right? The writers came around and agreed. Heck, it was Isaac Asimov saying "Sci Fi Channel" was OK, and that was that.

http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/03/sci-fi-channel-founder-bashes-name-change-.html

A great series and I am already missing it.

The viewer is forced to acknowledge that New Caprica was the defining moment in their journey. I would not have come to it on my own. The destruction of Caparica was not enough of an incentive for them to change or change the destructive life cycle. However, once on New Caprica and escaping barely in a way many have not had to before their lessons were brought to New Earth with a resolute, not going to go there again. After being cast out by Gaia it is Gaia that leads them back not as creator, but as co-creator.

The end of BSG showed Times Square with robots (Nomo?) in the window.

I think, despite everything they did to avoid it, the gears are already in motion for "...it all happened before..." so nothing was resolved/changed.

Like I said before, in so many words: "They couldn't destroy all their knowledge unless they sent themselves into the sun. They had to have used it and passed some of it on.

Just think of the money they'll save with the sequel. They only have to replay this series. The outcome will always be the same, IMHO.

ETA: I think the only way everything would have worked is if everyone had died. But then again, we enter a paradox. There had to be a beginning before with the human race....so that wouldn't have worked either, would it?

I'm of the mind that things cannot change, which leads to a complete futility of the whole thing.

BSG started out with more intriguing mysteries and certainly more substantive issues than LOST began with, but after season 2 it was clear to me that BSG wasn't in the same league as LOST. BSG substituted pretentious and superficial storylines related to current issues but failed to have anything of substance to say. A higher goal than LOST but a complete failure.

A "complete failure"? Good grief. :rolleyes: Those "pretentious and superficial storylines" are what won the show a Peabody Award, you realize that don't you? That stuff was what made the show more than just a lightweight space opera; it became an allegory of our times. Just because you didn't "get" what RDM was trying to say doesn't mean that everybody didn't. Just a perusal though the 300 pages and nearly 10,000 posts of this thread will show you that most of us saw much more in the story than you did. That's not a problem; people took from it what they liked and not everybody liked everything. Right-wingers hated the New Caprica arc, for example, and many bailed at that point (thereby cutting off their self-righteous noses to spite their faces, but whatever). As you can see from a comment just above, many others thought it was the key plot element of the show, driving so much future behavior and tragic consequences. Coming in here and saying the show was a "complete failure", however, is completely ridiculous.

Originally Posted by philw1776 View Post
BSG started out with more intriguing mysteries and certainly more substantive issues than LOST began with, but after season 2 it was clear to me that BSG wasn't in the same league as LOST. BSG substituted pretentious and superficial storylines related to current issues but failed to have anything of substance to say. A higher goal than LOST but a complete failure.

A "complete failure"? Good grief. Those "pretentious and superficial storylines" are what won the show a Peabody Award, you realize that don't you?

It won the Peabody after its second season.

It won the Peabody after its second season.

I'm aware of that. The comment was more on the lines of the Peabody being an expression of the overall quality of the show and the importance of the issues they tackled. Those certainly didn't diminish after S-2. The New Caprica arc came at the beginning of S-3.

I'm aware of that. The comment was more on the lines of the Peabody being an expression of the overall quality of the show and the importance of the issues they tackled. Those certainly didn't diminish after S-2. The New Caprica arc came at the beginning of S-3.

Not to put words in Phil's mouth, but he pretty clearly implies that in his opinion the quality dropped post S2. I am in the minority, but my opinion is that Season 4.5 was a significant drop.

Not to put words in Phil's mouth, but he pretty clearly implies that in his opinion the quality dropped post S2. I am in the minority, but my opinion is that Season 4.5 was a significant drop.

I think he's making sweeping generalizations and overall quality determinations about the show that I feel are unfair and unwarranted, regardless of season. We'll just have to disagree on that. But saying it's a complete failure, pre or post S-2, is just crazy-talk, IMO.

BSG substituted pretentious and superficial storylines related to current issues but failed to have anything of substance to say.

Go back and watch Saul Tigh's speech to the other Final Four Cylons when he realizes he's a Cylon. That's one of my favorite moments in the history of TV. And it says tons.

Well, as was pointed out to me last week when I was complaining about the flashback vignettes - that I wouldn't be able to evaluate their relevance until the finale airs (I feel more than vindicated), post finale is an appropriate time to take stock of of the series as a whole. Complete failure is too strong for me to sign off on for the series as a whole, but the conclusion did significantly lessen my opinion of the whole piece. Basically it drove home that while it was serialized, and at some point an end date was chosen, the actual ending was not particularly planned. In my opinion it showed.

It dropped from a great show to a pretty good show that had great parts. I am hoping the Lost guys have a real plan.

I agree, dc.

I think they didn't know if they had another year or not and was "caught off guard" when they had to come up with an ending without having another year to do it.

Go back and watch Saul Tigh's speech to the other Final Four Cylons when he realizes he's a Cylon. That's one of my favorite moments in the history of TV. And it says tons.

Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2H6Lx-Fkjc. :)

A "complete failure"? Good grief. :rolleyes: Those "pretentious and superficial storylines" are what won the show a Peabody Award, you realize that don't you? That stuff was what made the show more than just a lightweight space opera; it became an allegory of our times. Just because you didn't "get" what RDM was trying to say doesn't mean that everybody didn't. Just a perusal though the 300 pages and nearly 10,000 posts of this thread will show you that most of us saw much more in the story than you did. That's not a problem; people took from it what they liked and not everybody liked everything. Right-wingers hated the New Caprica arc, for example, and many bailed at that point (thereby cutting off their self-righteous noses to spite their faces, but whatever). As you can see from a comment just above, many others thought it was the key plot element of the show, driving so much future behavior and tragic consequences. Coming in here and saying the show was a "complete failure", however, is completely ridiculous.

I agree that 'complete failure' was unjustified hyperbole on my part. There's pitifully little 'get' to what RDM has to say. He just films what seems cool. Sometimes it's entertaining. Other times, it's a failure. Far more misses than hits in my book.

It won the Peabody after its second season.

I liked the 1st two seasons. Back when I foolishly thought 'they had a plan' to coin a phrase.

Go back and watch Saul Tigh's speech to the other Final Four Cylons when he realizes he's a Cylon. That's one of my favorite moments in the history of TV. And it says tons.

I agree with you on that scene as I remember it (not in detail). Tigh became one of my favorite characters the last season.

BSG started out with more intriguing mysteries and certainly more substantive issues than LOST began with, but after season 2 it was clear to me that BSG wasn't in the same league as LOST. BSG substituted pretentious and superficial storylines related to current issues but failed to have anything of substance to say. A higher goal than LOST but a complete failure. Despite its ups and downs LOST has delivered a better ever growing story arc, better more consistent and rational character development and far better science fiction. One series key you mentioned is that the LOST writers have remained internally consistent to their universe vs changing people's behaviours and events on weekly "that's cool!" whims.

Groucho already covered the NC part of that. It seems like politics is what changed everything.

As for Lost...are you f**king kidding me? After a spectacular season 1, the show was absolutely dreadful for a season and a half, spinning their wheels more than RDM and company could ever dream of. It has definitely returned to greatness since they set an end date, but it is still all-over the place at times, and completely illogical. Far better science fiction? Come on. It's funny that people are getting upset over Starbuck's resurrection and the religious angle, when Lost has just done the exact same thing, only people seem to be buying into it more readily.

That is kinda funny to me actually. Two giant frakking islands jumping around the ocean in both space and time that manage to keep perfect tides and climates...an island that seemingly heals people and brings them back from the dead...a story that's even more involved with destiny with a billion more "hand of god" coincidences than BSG could ever imagine...and yet folks still buy into it.

But throw words like "angels" and "god" into the mix, and suddenly it's, "OMGWTFBBQGOD!IMPOSSIBLE!COPOUT!DEUSEXMACHINA!"

Ignoring the fact the angels and the concept of god have been there since the beginning of the series of course.

I agree, dc.

I think they didn't know if they had another year or not and was "caught off guard" when they had to come up with an ending without having another year to do it.

Caught off guard or not, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that at some date the show is going to end and all the loose ends have to eventually tie together.

Maybe, they're just not that smart.

Caught off guard or not, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that at some date the show is going to end and all the loose ends have to eventually tie together.

Maybe, they're just not that smart.

Maybe so, Jim, but you can't tell me that Anders' spiel in the hospital with the other Cylons would have happened the way it did if they'd thought they had another year.

Possibly to the beginning of season 4 they started to panic and they had to catch up, since there was not going to be a season 5.

Scripts don't happen in "real time" as we see it.

Maybe so, Jim, but you can't tell me that Anders' spiel in the hospital with the other Cylons would have happened the way it did if they'd thought they had another year.

It backed the story line up. Probably to the beginning of season 4 and they had to catch up, since there was not going to be a season 5.

Scripts don't happen in "real time" as we see it.

Given the filler episodes in the final season, it could have very well happened the same way had they had 3 more years to end it.

I'm being too critical and I apologize over that. It just seems to me that they wasted a lot of time in some places and rushed things in others.

Given the filler episodes in the final season, it could have very well happened the same way had they had 3 more years to end it.

I'm being too critical and I apologize over that. It just seems to me that they wasted a lot of time in some places and rushed things in others.

Over all, Jim, I agree.

But I do think the lack of a 5th year set them with "the vapors".

Groucho already covered the NC part of that. It seems like politics is what changed everything.

As for Lost...are you f**king kidding me? After a spectacular season 1, the show was absolutely dreadful for a season and a half, spinning their wheels more than RDM and company could ever dream of. It has definitely returned to greatness since they set an end date, but it is still all-over the place at times, and completely illogical. Far better science fiction? Come on. It's funny that people are getting upset over Starbuck's resurrection and the religious angle, when Lost has just done the exact same thing, only people seem to be buying into it more readily.

That is kinda funny to me actually. Two giant frakking islands jumping around the ocean in both space and time that manage to keep perfect tides and climates...an island that seemingly heals people and brings them back from the dead...a story that's even more involved with destiny with a billion more "hand of god" coincidences than BSG could ever imagine...and yet folks still buy into it.

But throw words like "angels" and "god" into the mix, and suddenly it's, "OMGWTFBBQGOD!IMPOSSIBLE!COPOUT!DEUSEXMACHINA!"

Ignoring the fact the angels and the concept of god have been there since the beginning of the series of course.

You have me confused with someone else. I have no problem with BSG's god & angels theme. As I said previously it's one of the few consistencies.

I'm concerned about the show. As with the Star Wars prequels, we know how this story ends (sort of). So other than the action sequences, there wasn't much for me in those movies. I found the 3rd to be the best.

I am interested in seeing The Plan however, as that's a side of the story we haven't seen.

Oh, totally. That one's a given. It will help ease the pain of knowing they chopped up the sets and sold them at auction. :eek:

You have me confused with someone else. I have no problem with BSG's god & angels theme. As I said previously it's one of the few consistencies.

Actually yeah. I probably should have separated that more since it wasn't really aimed at you...but it was connected to Lost so I just kinda left it. :p

I wonder what will bring in the most money/ or did bring in the most money:

Kara's dog tags?

Booze bottles? (Nevermind. They always threw them up agains a wall.)

The prophetess' "bible"?

Roslyn's pain killers? :D

I would definitely wear Adama's admiralty pins.

etc......

I can appreciate that some may not have liked the way they wrapped up the series, but I adored it. I thought they did everything right, they ended it better than I could have possibly imagined.

As for "it has all happened before and it will happen again" it all comes down to a question of destiny vs. free will. Towards the end of the series, they tried to make it seem like they were all destined for something. The prophecies and whatnot. But in the end, the prohpecies were SELF FULFILLING. There is no fate, no desiny. There is only a divine force ("God" and the "angels" Baltar, Six, perhaps Kara, etc), and the will of the people to make what they want of themselves.

The Angel Six and Baltar said as much. They implied very strongly that although they had their doubts, that things could, and probably WILL be different "this time."

How anyone can draw a pessimistic conclusion from the ending of that episode is beyond me.

I think Angel Six's red dress brought in some serious coin at the auction, remember reading that... Moore bought Baltar's cigarette case. :p

So, do you think anyone had the forethought to leave a message in a bottle about not building Cylons?

<snip>
The Angel Six and Baltar said as much. They implied very strongly that although they had their doubts, that things could, and probably WILL be different "this time."

How anyone can draw a pessimistic conclusion from the ending of that episode is beyond me.

Easily! :)

They had been wrong before, obviously.

So, do you think anyone had the forethought to leave a message in a bottle about not building Cylons?

In order for descendants to know "what not to do", they would have to know:

This is how it was done. Now. Don't do it! :)

Speaking of the auction, you know somebody had to end up with those full-size mock-ups of Raptors and Vipers. Wouldn't you love to have one of those things in your back yard? Your cool guests would go: "Awesome!". Your un-cool guests would go: "WTF is that? Dude, how do you mow under that thing?" :D

Speaking of the auction, you know somebody had to end up with those full-size mock-ups of Raptors and Vipers. Wouldn't you love to have one of those things in your back yard? Your cool guests would go: "Awesome!". Your un-cool guests would go: "WTF is that? Dude, how do you mow under that thing?" :D

Didn't Galen say, during an interview, he was gonna keep a Viper in his garage?

Easily! :)

They had been wrong before, obviously.

Actually Angel Baltar seemed surprised at Angel 6's optimistic response (as if it were the first time she had done so).

Don't have his exact quote, but it seemed like a new development to me.

Look at some of these BSG props prices.

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Battlestar-Props__W0QQ_armrsZ1

Actually Angel Baltar seemed surprised at Angel 6's optimistic response (as if it were the first time she had done so).

Don't have his exact quote, but it seemed like a new development to me.

I'll bet all the gods/angels ever have is "hope". :)

Look at some of these BSG props prices.

http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Battlestar-Props__W0QQ_armrsZ1

I didn't go past the first page but a Viper was bidding at 18k. C'mon, some of you guys spend that much on your loudspeakers alone. A Viper in my back yard? Raptor in my driveway? I'd settle for Bose if I could have that! :p

I didn't go past the first page but a Viper was bidding at 18k. C'mon, some of you guys spend that much on your loudspeakers alone. A Viper in my back yard? Raptor in my driveway? I'd settle for Bose if I could have that! :p

Hey there.

I have Bose.:(

Yer rite.

BTW:

Did anyone else hear Lee Adama pronouncing Raptor, as they were launched, as Rapture? Not once but at least two times?

Hey there.

I have Bose.:(

Yer rite.

Well, then, put in your bid Dude. I'm rootin' fer ya'! But the Raptor I'm going to win will kick your tail. I'll just jump in behind you, see, and then fire a missile up yer tailpipe. Boom!

Um, gods-damn, didn't catch that homoerotic subtext there. Never mind. :p

Well, then, put in your bid Dude. I'm rootin' fer ya'! But the Raptor I'm going to win will kick your tail. I'll just jump in behind you, see, and then fire a missile up yer tailpipe. Boom!

Um, gods-damn, didn't catch that homoerotic subtext there. Never mind. :p

It's all happened before and, with any luck, it will all happen again.

So say we all! :D

This is the THIRD story about "Battlestar Galactica" and/or Syfy that James Hibberd has written today. The man just can't let go of a good story! From Fredfa's "Hot Off The Press" thread at the top of the 'HDTV Programming' page:

Commentary
A space odyssey to keep an eye on: SyFy without 'Battlestar' at the helm
By James Hibberd The Hollywood Reporter - March 23, 2009

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/photos/stylus/75982-Battlestar_Galactica_341x182.jpg

After six years, Sci Fi Channel's "Battlestar Galactica" concluded Friday with a large ratings sendoff: 2.4 million viewers, the best performance for the space opera since 2006.

As the series finale aired, the show's cast and crew gathered in North Hollywood and said tearful goodbyes at a private screening.

"I really don't want this to happen," showrunner Ron Moore told the packed auditorium. "Tonight there is a 'Battlestar Galactica'; tomorrow there was. I'm looking out at faces here who are in anticipation of watching a new 'Battlestar Galactica,' and that will not happen again.

"It was an honor," he added, his voice breaking, "to be your storyteller."

The crowd went straight to its feet in applause, many with tears in their eyes.

Applauding too was Sci Fi executive vp programming Mark Stern, whom producers praised for supporting "Battlestar" even as they took creative risks.

"It's been an amazing journey," Stern said. "I'm not sure what I'm going to do without it."

Indeed, with the series gone, the question for Sci Fi becomes: What now?

Although not the network's top-rated program, "Battlestar" by far was its most talked-about. A vast majority of media coverage about Sci Fi was spurred by interest in "Battlestar." Such shows as "Eureka" and "Ghost Hunters" don't tend to make magazine covers or get covered obsessively by critics and the blogosphere.

The online interest is particularly important because "Battlestar" was the biggest driver of viewers to Sci Fi's Web site and helped spur the online extensions on which parent NBC Universal places such high value. On Sci Fi's message boards, there are 2.4 million posts about "Battlestar," and the closest series runner-up is "Stargate: SG-1" with 480,000.

The conclusion of "Battlestar" coincides with the network's revelation that it will rebrand in July, adopting the broader and supposedly more feminine-named SyFy. Some fans are using the dual events as an opportunity to reconsider their relationship with the network. There's a sense Sci Fi traded a brand that was perfectly clear and targeted for one that's deliberately fuzzy and that only a copyright lawyer could love.

"It's frakked up that they scapegoat the sci-fi fans who have made shows like 'Battlestar' a success," one fan wrote on the Sci Fi boards, echoing a common sentiment. "If we hadn't tuned in for the miniseries, they wouldn't still be here six years later. But according to them, we are what is holding them back, because the general viewing public is afraid of looking like geeks if they watch a channel named Sci Fi."

At least one "Save Science Fiction on Sci Fi" protest site has sprung up online, and even network co-founder Mitch Rubenstein has registered his dismay.

"SyFy, say it's not so!" he wrote in an open letter protesting the switch. "What would Isaac (Asimov) have said if the name was instead SyFy Channel? He would have said, we believe: 'That's just plain dumb.' "

Stern says fan reaction has not worried the network.

"We knew walking into it there's going to be certain concerns or reactions," he says. "I think it's to be expected, especially before they have a sense of a couple things -- mainly that we're not changing our programming; we're not changing our genre."

Sci Fi hopes the rollout of "Warehouse 13" in the summer and the "Battlestar" spinoff "Caprica" next year will help reassure fans, along with the order of several fantasy-driven miniseries projects from RHI Entertainment including "Phantom" and "Riverworld."

One suspects the network is correct to think fans will get over the name change. In his letter, Rubenstein notes that genre purists originally were outraged that the network would be called Sci Fi Channel instead of SF Channel, the latter delineating science- and fact-based sci-fi.

Rubenstein recalls presenting the name at a writers convention: "The writers were not happy -- and that's an understatement. They said they wouldn't watch it. They would oppose it unless we called it the SF Channel because calling it Sci Fi Channel was a put-down to the SF genre. ... Then Isaac started to speak and said that the name had to be Sci Fi Channel and not the SF Channel in order to draw a wide, diverse audience and be successful."

A purist-offending name change to draw a wider and more diverse audience? Sounds familiar, right?

Sci Fi is correct that fans eventually will overlook the name in favor of its content; no sci-fi fan avoids "Lost" because it's on female-soap-driven ABC. Replacing "Battlestar" is a more genuine concern, if more for the show's acclaim and buzz than its viewership.

On both the fictional show and the real-life network, "Battlestar" was the respected leader of a ragtag fleet of supporting players. Sci Fi can drift for a while, but regardless of its name, the network will lack a strong sense of momentum until it can find a new flagship.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/features/columns/inside-the-box/e3ib501b76c37004ff7af6fa3807354012c

RDM has clearly stated that the essence of the ending of the show has been known since the beginning. I suspect that the same thing exists for Lost. In both cases, what was unknown was how long the middle would be. In this situation, writers have a fantastic license to explore variations on the main themes, create and end subthemes, and do other things that they think will be interesting to them and their audiences. In both cases, the writers have stated that knowing when the middle would end was both constrictive and liberating. This should not be suprising to anyone who understand the creative process.

Along the same lines, it is disappointing that posters here have vilified RDM for sharing three particular instances of how the creative process works for him.

Specifically, he stated that the vision of Six in Times Square was essentially around from the beginning; that the part about the ending being about the characters and not the plot occuring to him in the shower; and lastly about the image of a dove flying around in a room. None of these examples relate to "making up the show as they go along." All three undoubtely came to someone's mind as they were mulling over various things about the story line and how to make things visually interesting and perhaps symbolic. The point of him being in the shower is irrelevant...it could just as well being while he drove home, or in one of his dreams.

The significant point is that all three were kind of "Eureka" moments, which occur in any creative mind, whether it be artistic or scientific or something else. I would venture to guess that most if not all of us here have one, two or many such moments in our lifetimes.

In my opinion, BSG did a fine job with the beginning, middle and end. Lost did a great job with the beginning, has struggled mightly with the middle, and hopefully will rebound with the ending..which is just beginning.

fafner

It's all happened before and, with any luck, it will all happen again.

So say we all! :D

You know that all things considered, considering it's brevity yet precise focus on capturing the very essence of the greatest sci-fi series of all time (even including the paltry but occasionally well earned criticisms that we mortals could bequeath upon it), this might be the all-time greatest and most succinct post on the entire BSG thread. Brilliant. Archi would be proud. :D

You know that all things considered, considering it's brevity yet precise focus on capturing the very essence of the greatest sci-fi series of all time (even including the paltry but occasionally well earned criticisms that we mortals could bequeath upon it), this might be the all-time greatest and most succinct post on the entire BSG thread. Brilliant. Archi would be proud. :D

I was hoping you'd understand my sub-text.....I thought you would. :D

You did, didn't you?

Who the **** is Archi?

I'll bet all the gods/angels ever have is "hope". :)

Well true, but labels aside, they don't appear to be agents of good or evil. They server a higher power, and that higher power is ok with billions of deaths and destruction, but preserves the core of life so the cycle can start anew. Neither good nor evil. I could just have easily have called them Demon Baltar and Six. Probably a better label would be Agent Baltar and Six. They are just following orders :-)

Well true, but labels aside, they don't appear to be agents of good or evil. They server a higher power, and that higher power is ok with billions of deaths and destruction, but preserves the core of life so the cycle can start anew. Neither good nor evil. I could just have easily have called them Demon Baltar and Six. Probably a better label would be Agent Baltar and Six. They are just following orders :-)

Positive and Negative. The perfect balance....etc...

Not: Right or Wrong.

I agree with you on that scene as I remember it (not in detail). Tigh became one of my favorite characters the last season.

And that, IMHO, is the trick to really loving Galactica. I think you have to filter out the bad and be happy with the really brilliant moments.

Some character arcs worked incredibly well.

Tigh's ends up being downright classic by the time it's finished. For what it's worth, I think Tigh deserves to be remembered as an all-time great TV character along the lines of someone like Hawkeye from MASH. How many characters do you think were ever improved by a story arc where they condone suicide bombing?! Well, you know, Larry from Three's Company, sure, but I dare you to name another.

The Chief's story arc, particularly at the end of season 2 when he's contemplating suicide, is excellent, even if it sort of fell off with the whole murder of Cally.

Bill and Laura are near the top of my all-time favorite love stories. For a show full of insincere, gratuitous sex, that they ever wrote anything like Bill and Laura into the show without dumbing it down is amazing. (By far my worst complaint with the show is its chronic substitution of crazy monkey sex for relationship development.)

And, yeah, there were some awful character arcs. For example, Helo's story gets dumber and dumber until he commits outright treason by saving the Cylons from the thought disease or whatever the hell it was (awful, awful episode). And pays no price for it . . . somehow.

And I never understood why they bothered having Zarek if he was only going to be a foil for every dumb plot to undermine Roslin and Adama. "Hey guys! We need to burn an episode . . . how about this time Zarek plots with the Bald Chinese Guys with the Tats Who Never Speaks to foster a mutiny in the rec room? Yeah, that'll work, and we can say it was a brilliant and very current commentary on the treatment of deaf-mutes!"

You just gotta filter out the dumb stuff (pretty much everything that happened on Cloud 9) and focus on the good stuff (Tigh and . . . um . . . the dog, the heroic dog of the resistance was great).

You know that all things considered, considering it's brevity yet precise focus on capturing the very essence of the greatest sci-fi series of all time (even including the paltry but occasionally well earned criticisms that we mortals could bequeath upon it), this might be the all-time greatest and most succinct post on the entire BSG thread. Brilliant. Archi would be proud. :D

I do hope you understand I was making a joke off of your homoerotic post.

If not, you're not the fine poster I thought you were. I've really enjoyed your posts, so far.

ETA:

I think they gave Richard Hatch a role just to shut him the hell up.

And, yeah, there were some awful character arcs. For example, Helo's story gets dumber and dumber until he commits outright treason by saving the Cylons from the thought disease or whatever the hell it was (awful, awful episode). And pays no price for it . . . somehow.

And I never understood why they bothered having Zarek if he was only going to be a foil for every dumb plot to undermine Roslin and Adama. "Hey guys! We need to burn an episode . . . how about this time Zarek plots with the Bald Chinese Guys with the Tats Who Never Speaks to foster a mutiny in the rec room? Yeah, that'll work, and we can say it was a brilliant and very current commentary on the treatment of deaf-mutes!"


Actually I'm pretty sure that Chinese dude followed Starbuck, not Gaeta. :p

Though I'm with you on Helo. I've never really liked Helo. I think my issue is with the actor though...I think he's awful. Even in Dollhouse. Maybe that's just his acting style, but I've always thought he was the weakest link in the BSG acting chain, and stands out even more because the majority of the cast is fantastic. While most of the other young actors matured quite a bit during the 5 or 6 years or whatever, Helo still seems bad.

And I keep calling him Helo because I don't know how to spell his real name. lol

<snlp>

Bill and Laura are near the top of my all-time favorite love stories. For a show full of insincere, gratuitous sex, that they ever wrote anything like Bill and Laura into the show without dumbing it down is amazing.

Meow. I coudn't agree more. It was "classical", IMO.

And I never understood why they bothered having Zarek if he was only going to be a foil for every dumb plot to undermine Roslin and Adama. "Hey guys! We need to burn an episode . . . how about this time Zarek plots with the Bald Chinese Guys with the Tats Who Never Speaks to foster a mutiny in the rec room? Yeah, that'll work, and we can say it was a brilliant and very current commentary on the treatment of deaf-mutes!"


They were just trying to shut Hatch the f#ck up, IMO.

And, yeah, there were some awful character arcs. For example, Helo's story gets dumber and dumber until he commits outright treason by saving the Cylons from the thought disease or whatever the hell it was (awful, awful episode). And pays no price for it . . . somehow.




Helo's storyline is a tragedy (unintentional)...I remember liking him in the miniseries...he was a good friend and soldier, and gave up his seat for what he thought was the good of humanity (turns out he was right...although not for the reasons he thought).

He wasn't supposed to come back, but the fans really liked him so they wrote him in...and it went downhill from there. One bad decision after another...until he became a joke.

Same thing for the Chief as far as I'm concerned.

Helo's storyline is a tragedy (unintentional)...I remember liking him in the miniseries...he was a good friend and soldier, and gave up his seat for what he thought was the good of humanity (turns out he was right...although not for the reasons he thought).

He wasn't supposed to come back, but the fans really liked him so they wrote him in...and it went downhill from there. One bad decision after another...until he became a joke.

Same thing for the Chief as far as I'm concerned.

Chief was Job from the Bible. IMO.

And I posted earlier that Roslyn is Moses.

Anyone else with some ideas?

Jonah Goldberg is a conservative political commentator who happens to have been a big fan of BSG. Here is a link to his reaction to the finale that might be of interest:

BSG Is Over (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWIwNzkyMmZkZTc0Y2NiZDAyZDkyNDkzYWIyZTVhMjg=)

I don't think he made any political comments that might deter anyone from finding it interesting.

Bye guys.

I've enjoyed it but I've had enough of this "one-up man's idea" and who owns the thread concept. Etc...etc.....

When nice posters start getting ugly, it's time to leave.

Then again, on second thought, maybe not. :(

See you at Caprica? :D

It's all happened before and, with any luck, it will all happen again.

So say we all! :D

....and so it begins (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,509684,00.html).....

"The U.S. military is calling out the "BigDogs" in addition to its big guns as it deploys more troops to fight terrorists in Afghanistan.

The BigDogs — four-legged robots that can navigate the country's treacherous terrain — and pilotless helicopters than can transport tons of supplies to very remote bases are just two of the new weapons being tested in Afghanistan."

Helo's storyline is a tragedy (unintentional)...I remember liking him in the miniseries...he was a good friend and soldier, and gave up his seat for what he thought was the good of humanity (turns out he was right...although not for the reasons he thought).

I didn't think Helo got really awful until after the Pegasus story. But, when Helo went downhill, he went fast.

They were just trying to shut Hatch the f#ck up, IMO.

True. And Hatch was the ToS person doing the most actual footwork on a new series. So, of all those who probably deserved a cut of the new series, it was Hatch.

I never had a problem with Zarek as a character. I actually thought Hatch did as well as he could with the material given.

My problem has always been that every time they took a good step forward with Zarek (such as him and Laura talking on New Caprica) they turn around a half season later and have him go right back to pointless, opportunist. At some point I would have liked to see Zarek develop and learn. Because as acted by Hatch, Zarek always seemed smarter than the scripts he was given. It seemed a waste of a potentially deeper character.

Imagine if they had just left Saul a useless shell of a drunk. While I'm not saying Zarek could have been as interesting as Tigh, I know he could have been more interesting than Zarek.

See you at Caprica? :D

I'd imagine that will be a separate thread, if there isn't one already.

I'd imagine that will be a separate thread [for Caprica], if there isn't one already.

How about this one? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16109761#post16109761)

Jonah Goldberg is a conservative political commentator who happens to have been a big fan of BSG.

I remember him. He wasn't a fan of the New Caprica story arc and he's been bitching ever since. I also remember it because a few months later, someone else over at NRO called it the best show on television, (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NWIyMTk3NDgwMjg5NzBmMzcxOTUzYjdjYzkyZDRiODM=) which put a smile on my face.

He already lost me when he said, "I say that even though I found a lot of the back story stuff to be actor-driven filler" early in his review. But then he goes on about how 6 was an angel who gave him a nuke. It's already been said here, but the head characters aren't "angels" as most people think of them. Eh...

My problem has always been that every time they took a good step forward with Zarek (such as him and Laura talking on New Caprica) they turn around a half season later and have him go right back to pointless, opportunist. At some point I would have liked to see Zarek develop and learn. Because as acted by Hatch, Zarek always seemed smarter than the scripts he was given. It seemed a waste of a potentially deeper character.


For me, I thought that was the point of his character. He was what he was...an opportunist and a terrorist. Dee even called him a butcher. Some people learn, and some don't. I thought it was nice to see a character remain just as blood-driven as the day we first met him.

I remember him. He wasn't a fan of the New Caprica story arc and he's been bitching ever since. I also remember it because a few months later, someone else over at NRO called it the best show on television, (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NWIyMTk3NDgwMjg5NzBmMzcxOTUzYjdjYzkyZDRiODM=) which put a smile on my face.

He already lost me when he said, "I say that even though I found a lot of the back story stuff to be actor-driven filler" early in his review. But then he goes on about how 6 was an angel who gave him a nuke. It's already been said here, but the head characters aren't "angels" as most people think of them. Eh...



For me, I thought that was the point of his character. He was what he was...an opportunist and a terrorist. Dee even called him a butcher. Some people learn, and some don't. I thought it was nice to see a character remain just as blood-driven as the day we first met him.

I agree, Mooby. They couldn't redeem everyone. I'm actually surprised as many folks accepted the redemption of Baltar as did. I think had the show somehow engineered a way to have Zarek finally redeem himself in this final season that would have been seen as a true attempt to take things in weird directions... Instead, having Gaeta turn mutineer along with him made for a more interesting and believable story arc -- particularly for anyone who'd seen the Webseries "Face of the Enemy."

Frankly, I'm quite amazed at how many folks are still arguing over, essentially "how many angels can fit on the edge of a pin." I mean, some of the "fine points" of the finale being argued one way or another just really don't seem all that important when the "big picture" is taken into account. Each person making his or her point once seems enough, but some of you folks seem to want to argue this stuff ad infinitum... I can't fathom why.

As for that viper, which has still not met the "minimum reserve" at $18,100 -- I'd just love to have one of those in my back yard, too -- mowing or no mowing (I cut the grass only about 4 times a year, anyway, lol)... But man, that's like two years' wages for me on disability at the current, "reserve not met" price... And even if I DID start actually writing for money again, I'm not sure I'd make enough to buy a Viper in the next 3 days (frankly, I think the chances of that are about the same as a planet somewhere else in the galaxy having the very same constellations as ours, lol).

Ummmm, besides, we all know any of those Vipers or Raptors truly deserve to be in either museums or, if held by private owners, in large rooms that are climate-controlled so they don't rust and whatnot -- not out in the weather where they end up with pollen and snow and bird droppings and whatever else on them.

As for Bose, ahem (and I realize that may have been a joke), I've been of the opinion since I first became an audiophile in 1977 that Bose is the most over-rated, over-priced technology on the market. This is not to say that it's not good -- just never as good as it's chalked up to be and certainly never worth what they charge for it... It's even worse than most of the stuff by Sony, lol. If you want true audiophile quality stuff, well, frankly all that stuff is really out of my range these days, but I know where to look for it, and Bose is only on the periphery of it, at best.
Jeff

....and so it begins (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,509684,00.html).....

"The U.S. military is calling out the "BigDogs" in addition to its big guns as it deploys more troops to fight terrorists in Afghanistan.

The BigDogs — four-legged robots that can navigate the country's treacherous terrain — and pilotless helicopters than can transport tons of supplies to very remote bases are just two of the new weapons being tested in Afghanistan."

There are some really intriguing videos of this. Google "big dog robot". This is the one I first saw:

Big Dog Walking (http://gizmodo.com/368651/new-video-of-bigdog-quadruped-robot-is-so-stunning-its-spooky)

There may be others but at least take a look at this one.

A couple more reviews: http://perpetualpost.com/?p=1234

I'll be honest. I never considered the family aspect. Well, I did, but not nearly to that extent. Sure it brought some folks together, but it also tore some families apart, in the harshest ways possible.

There are some really intriguing videos of this. Google "big dog robot". This is the one I first saw:

Big Dog Walking (http://gizmodo.com/368651/new-video-of-bigdog-quadruped-robot-is-so-stunning-its-spooky)

There may be others but at least take a look at this one.

Hmmmm, I wonder just when DARPA is gonna let the private market start selling those "big dogs" to the general public? I bet they'd make great watch dogs! I can see putting one of those in my back yard -- armed with a bit of pepper spray, a 360-degree machine gun turret and maybe a few anti-personnel missiles, just for good measure... Of course I'd want one with a muffler on it to mask that annoying "model airplane" sound, replaced, perhaps, with pre-programmed sounds of a dog growling and/or barking.

I bet it could kick some serious butt! :p
Jeff

wait till it has a red light added for eyes going in a sweeping pattern.

There are some really intriguing videos of this. Google "big dog robot". This is the one I first saw:

Big Dog Walking (http://gizmodo.com/368651/new-video-of-bigdog-quadruped-robot-is-so-stunning-its-spooky)

There may be others but at least take a look at this one.

That one is downright scary. At first I thought it was a joke---you know, a couple of guys (or maybe women since the legs were so thin) in a "big dog" suit.

wait till it has a red light added for eyes going in a sweeping pattern.

...and when you give it instructions it says, "By your Command".

In that video, I wouldn't want to be the guy who kicked it. It may remember. And get him.

wait till it has a red light added for eyes going in a sweeping pattern.

I think what the finale of BSG has taught us is when your robots get to the point where they have that red sweeping thing goin' on where their eyes should be, it's time to work on your "exit strategy". Pronto. 'Cause things are probably not going to end well. :D

I loved the finale. For me the "God" aspect actually works pretty well. we'll see in a few years when we watch the show again, knowing the ending.

IMHO, God was distressed at seeing his creations continually destroying themselves. So he orchestrates a holocoust to force his people out on a journey. Visiting "Cinder Earth" is a way of hammering home the point that their technology is destructive and is crucial in getting everyone to abandon it once they reach "New Earth". I think I would have preferred an "Atlantis" type advanced colony (particularly as it is so richly ingrained in our own mythology) but I'll take it.

Stuff like the constellations, glowing spines, etc can be fan wanked, I don't see them as critical. Heck, for all we know, "New Earth" is only a few dozen light years from "Cinder Earth" thus the constellation similarity holds true.

That one is downright scary. At first I thought it was a joke---you know, a couple of guys (or maybe women since the legs were so thin) in a "big dog" suit.

They actually did a spoof of the big dog using just that (two guys in a costume). It's pretty funny, somewhere on youtube.

No, its not a dupe if it doesn't add up. Its just bad story telling (this part, not the entire series). I was looking for the opposite of "easy" ... I was hoping for a logical explanation within the construct of their original story. I had NO CLUE what the ending would be, because leading up to the finale, nothing seemed to logically make sense anymore. In my opinion, they went with the Easiest of all Easy endings ... GOD DID IT. And yes, I understand that this season was all about 'Nothing makes sense anymore' for all of the characters. I just didn't find it very compelling TV after about two episodes dealing with the same theme over and over. And 30 minutes into the finale, after I gave up on a logical ending, I very much enjoyed the finale.

Well to me, it was obvious that Cyndyr Earth was a standard TV/Hollywood misdirection. And the end-game was pretty much set up in Season one.

OTOH, I do agree that RM went the easy, standard ... sure to be liked by all, Hollywoodish ending. If the series had ended on Cyndyr Earth with everyone milling around in disbelief, I might have more respect for the series as a whole. "Something wonderful" might have happened, instead we just got a standard story that we (Humans) have been telling each other for thousands of years.

That having been said, I found the ending "satisfying," but disappointing at the same time. :)

My verdict on the series arc: Plot C+ ... Execution/Acting: A- ... with occasionally brilliant individual episodes ...

PS: But seriously the best "we" could do was "Life is a bunch of misery and dung, but just hang on long enough and you'll reach paradise." .... a little disappointing.

For me, I thought that was the point of his character. He was what he was...an opportunist and a terrorist. Dee even called him a butcher. Some people learn, and some don't. I thought it was nice to see a character remain just as blood-driven as the day we first met him.

I won't disagree. I suppose some of my misgivings come from the fact I thought there was more to Zarek. Oh, well. Not the worst disaster in the history of TV.

And that, IMHO, is the trick to really loving Galactica. I think you have to filter out the bad and be happy with the really brilliant moments.

Some character arcs worked incredibly well.

Tigh's ends up being downright classic by the time it's finished. For what it's worth, I think Tigh deserves to be remembered as an all-time great TV character along the lines of someone like Hawkeye from MASH. How many characters do you think were ever improved by a story arc where they condone suicide bombing?! Well, you know, Larry from Three's Company, sure, but I dare you to name another.

The Chief's story arc, particularly at the end of season 2 when he's contemplating suicide, is excellent, even if it sort of fell off with the whole murder of Cally.

Bill and Laura are near the top of my all-time favorite love stories. For a show full of insincere, gratuitous sex, that they ever wrote anything like Bill and Laura into the show without dumbing it down is amazing. (By far my worst complaint with the show is its chronic substitution of crazy monkey sex for relationship development.)

And, yeah, there were some awful character arcs. For example, Helo's story gets dumber and dumber until he commits outright treason by saving the Cylons from the thought disease or whatever the hell it was (awful, awful episode). And pays no price for it . . . somehow.



Absolutely dead on with those character arcs. Drunken, incompetent Tigh's emergence as a strong main character while still keeping his foibles like excessive drinking of fine malt beverages IS classic TV.

An adult love story (Bill & Laura) with mature non hard body characters is rare on TV, especially one with such a long arc and strong main character focus.

It could well be argued that BSG is mainly a love story vehicle. :eek:
Bill & Laura, Apollo's long love for Starbuck vs his brother and Bill Anders, the entire fleet & Starbuck, Caprica Six and Baltar, Chief and Boomer/Athena an incredible story, Chief & Callie, Tigh and Ellen over millenia, Adama and Tigh (strong male bonding thru incredible conflict) ...the list is huge. Each story was played out in great detail. And given the human cylon spin there was lots of creativity and uniqueness. And there were even a couple space battles thrown in here and there.

Also, what a difference 4 years can make for the Centurions. They went from "see a human, kill a human" mode to soldiers willing to take point and follow orders from humans.

I loved that they were refered to as "Red Stripes". What's their favorite beverage? Of course... "Red Stripe Beer" (Hooray, Beer!) :D:D

...the entire fleet & Starbuck. lol

I loved that they were refered to as "Red Stripes". What's their favorite beverage? Of course... "Red Stripe Beer" (Hooray, Beer!) :D:D

Is that "Red Stripe" a reference/homage to something (besides the beer, I mean)? I just figured it was because they had a big red stripe on them...which I figured was so the humans could tell the "good" centaurians from the bad ones.

I liked the "classic" centurians in the ep...but some of that CG was pretty bad.

I think what the finale of BSG has taught us is when your robots get to the point where they have that red sweeping thing goin' on where their eyes should be, it's time to work on your "exit strategy". Pronto. 'Cause things are probably not going to end well. :D


Uh uh! we already have an intelligent car with he red sweep thingy on it! OMG we are doomed!

Also, what a difference 4 years can make for the Centurions. They went from "see a human, kill a human" mode to soldiers willing to take point and follow orders from humans.

The removal of the telecelephonic inhibitors is probably the reason the Centurions behaved more "human-like".

I think what the finale of BSG has taught us is when your robots get to the point where they have that red sweeping thing goin' on where their eyes should be, it's time to work on your "exit strategy". Pronto. 'Cause things are probably not going to end well. :D

Still... it gave us Athena and Caprica Six.

It's a risk I'm willing to take. With those random variables in the right order Head Six talked about, I might even have a cosmic chance!

:)

...the entire fleet & Starbuck. lol

I forgot "the entire Twelve Colonies and Ellen". My bad.

Well to me, it was obvious that Cyndyr Earth was a standard TV/Hollywood misdirection. And the end-game was pretty much set up in Season one.

OTOH, I do agree that RM went the easy, standard ... sure to be liked by all, Hollywoodish ending. If the series had ended on Cyndyr Earth with everyone milling around in disbelief, I might have more respect for the series as a whole. "Something wonderful" might have happened, instead we just got a standard story that we (Humans) have been telling each other for thousands of years.

That having been said, I found the ending "satisfying," but disappointing at the same time. :)

My verdict on the series arc: Plot C+ ... Execution/Acting: A- ... with occasionally brilliant individual episodes ...

PS: But seriously the best "we" could do was "Life is a bunch of misery and dung, but just hang on long enough and you'll reach paradise." .... a little disappointing.

Who was the famous statesman who said, "Democracy is the worst form of government possible... Except every other form tried so far!"???

Life's kinda like that... Life sucks, and then ya die... Life's tough, but most of us still prefer it to death -- or worse yet, to the terrible pain and suffering most people seem to endure prior to dying...

All we are is "dung and worm food," yeah, so what? If you believe in "life," you have two choices, live it, or don't... It's like I tell younger people when they hear one of my knees pop, or something... "getting older is rough, but it's generally considered better than the alternative." (Amazingly some of them don't even get what I mean by "the alternative" and I have to spell it out for them, lol.)

Of course if you believe in "eternal life" and therefore don't truly acknowledge "death," per se, than it's just a transition... Yet most folks seem to cling to every last second no matter what they claim to believe. Life, no matter what "form" it's currently taking, is very tenacious and rebellious and will fight for "survival" even if that survival is always only fleeting and illusorally -- and even if that "life" happens to exist via artificially created intelligence sometime in the future, I think.

As for Kara Thrace "leading them all to their death." Of course she did. She lead them all to their final destination, where they surely died, eventually. Interpretation is everything.
Jeff

As for Kara Thrace "leading them all to their death." Of course she did. She lead them all to their final destination, where they surely died, eventually. Interpretation is everything.
Jeff

It true literally and figuratively. The human race as it existed, died off. It continued only through Hera and her descendants.

Who was the famous statesman who said, "Democracy is the worst form of government possible... Except every other form tried so far!"???

Winston Churchill

I liked the "classic" centurians in the ep...but some of that CG was pretty bad.

That stuck out to me, as well. I never even question the realism of the spaceship scenes (which look fantastic), but as soon as they try to animate cg centurians, the quality falls apart quickly.

I was very happy with the finale. The 1st hour was EPIC! The last part was kind of like the end of LotR, where it kind of goes on just to wrap things up nicely.

That stuck out to me, as well. I never even question the realism of the spaceship scenes (which look fantastic), but as soon as they try to animate cg centurians, the quality falls apart quickly.

I was very happy with the finale. The 1st hour was EPIC! The last part was kind of like the end of LotR, where it kind of goes on just to wrap things up nicely.

LOL I remember the Oscars talked about LOTR: ROTK and said it had been nominated for 13 Oscars: One for each ending. :-)

It true literally and figuratively. The human race as it existed, died off. It continued only through Hera and her descendants.


How so? Hopefully you aren't going on that nonsense about Hera being Mitochondrial Eve. That was the big and unnecessary flaw in the ending. Even if mtDNA could survive for 150,000 years, the only conclusion that scientists could make is whether or not the creature had (within a statistical variation) our mtDNA. Besides, who cares? MtDNA is pretty trivial and is only significant because it is passed down strictly from our mothers.

How so? Hopefully you aren't going on that nonsense about Hera being Mitochondrial Eve. That was the big and unnecessary flaw in the ending. Even if mtDNA could survive for 150,000 years, the only conclusion that scientists could make is whether or not the creature had (within a statistical variation) our mtDNA. Besides, who cares? MtDNA is pretty trivial and is only significant because it is passed down strictly from our mothers.

No flaw whatsoever. M Eve is a REAL scientific hypothethis. Based on DNA analysis of modern humans some evolutionary biologists contend that ONE woman was the antecedent of all modern humanity.

As for Kara Thrace "leading them all to their death." Of course she did. She lead them all to their final destination, where they surely died, eventually. Interpretation is everything.
Jeff

With that lose of an interpretation then anything is possible. Your viewpoint trivializes everything and is valueless because it allows anything.

And the Hera/Eve thing only means her remains were the only ones FOUND, not that they were the only ones to reproduce

That stuck out to me, as well. I never even question the realism of the spaceship scenes (which look fantastic), but as soon as they try to animate cg centurians, the quality falls apart quickly.


I don't know why but it does seem like they have a harder time with the older model centurians. But the new ones looked fantastic, like in the corridor with Lee or in that dream-ish scene with Hera and everyone looking for her.

The quality jump compared to season 1 is enormous.

And they said Kara was going to "lead them all to their end," which she did...end of the journey (and end of the human race as we know it). I don't think they ever said she was going to lead them all to their deaths.

And the Hera/Eve thing only means her remains were the only ones FOUND, not that they were the only ones to reproduce

You misinterpret the Mitochondrial Eve, which is a real scientific hypothethis. ME is NOT a skeleton as RDM the hack implies. It's an analysis of modern DNA which contends that everyone is descended from one particular woman 150,000 years ago.

How so? Hopefully you aren't going on that nonsense about Hera being Mitochondrial Eve. That was the big and unnecessary flaw in the ending. Even if mtDNA could survive for 150,000 years, the only conclusion that scientists could make is whether or not the creature had (within a statistical variation) our mtDNA. Besides, who cares? MtDNA is pretty trivial and is only significant because it is passed down strictly from our mothers.

there is also a mitochondrial Adam. they aren't 'related' per se. They simply represent the earliest ancestors that all human beings (present day) have in common.

Adam could have existed earlier or later in time, he just represents the earliest example they could find in common with all humans.

Basically RDM was saying that we ALL have Hera's DNA in us, therefore we are all part Cylon. There are no humans existing today who DON'T have her DNA (which is nonhuman in origin). Therefore the human race as it existed in the colonies is 'dead'....

You misinterpret the Mitochondrial Eve, which is a real scientific hypothethis. ME is NOT a skeleton as RDM the hack implies. It's an analysis of modern DNA which contends that everyone is descended from one particular woman 150,000 years ago.

And she had a virgin birth? We all have her DNA, but that doesn't mean you don't have a little Baltar DNA too, or that I have some Leoben DNA.

And she had a virgin birth? We all have her DNA, but that doesn't mean you don't have a little Baltar DNA too, or that I have some Leoben DNA.

Yes but pure humans and pure cylons went out of existence. I think that's the point RDM and co. were trying to make.

It's an analysis of modern DNA which contends that everyone is descended from one particular woman 150,000 years ago.

joan rivers ?

Yes but pure humans and pure cylons went out of existence. I think that's the point RDM and co. were trying to make.

No, I agree with you Iteki, that was to the other person who didn't seem to think any other Colony survivor spread their DNA.

there is also a mitochondrial Adam. they aren't 'related' per se. They simply represent the earliest ancestors that all human beings (present day) have in common.

Adam could have existed earlier or later in time, he just represents the earliest example they could find in common with all humans.

Basically RDM was saying that we ALL have Hera's DNA in us, therefore we are all part Cylon. There are no humans existing today who DON'T have her DNA (which is nonhuman in origin). Therefore the human race as it existed in the colonies is 'dead'....

I presume you're referring to Y-chromosomal Adam. I doubt if RDM knows his ass from a hole in the ground, concerning mtDNA. Please don't confuse mtDNA with the vastly more important regular DNA. The idea of relating Mito Eve with Hera is nonsense.

With that lose of an interpretation then anything is possible. Your viewpoint trivializes everything and is valueless because it allows anything.

I'm not exactly sure what a "lose" interpretation is. Is that when you interpret how someone is going to lose? :rolleyes:

If, on the other hand, you meant "loose" interpretation, well... what else is there at this point? It's an accurate interpretation, and there's no way to deny that, no matter how anyone wants to try to argue that point. Kara's input of that code using the notes of the song and only her input of that code provided the jump coordinates to "our Earth," which lead all the remaining members of both her species and its allies to their final destination, where they all lived out the rest of their lives, which meant their "ends" or their "deaths."

One certainly can't expect a "literal message" from a Cylon hybrid that runs ships and ordinarily speaks in all sorts of riddles that sound more like some kind of machine-code jibberish than anything that makes sense to begin with. So on the rare occasion(s) that those hybrids do make what appears to be an actual statement about someone, why would we expect it to have exact, literal meaning?

Your response, however, IS exactly the sort of nitpicking, arguing about "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin" sort of ongoing, seemingly "baiting" argument I fail to fathom reason for in this thread. I hesitated to make even this one response. It will cerrtainly be my only one. I really don't see how there is a more reasonable explanation than this, however.
Jeff

Not singling anyone out but I just wanted to say that it's a TV show, fer cryin out loud. The idea RDM is trying to get across is that we are all descended from Hera, who is a combination of cylon and human. He added the MC Hera remains scene 150,000 years later to hammer home the point.

Personally, I don't care if it's mtDNA, normal DNA or Sony HDNA. I get his point in context of the story and I don't really care if it makes sense from a real-world biological POV. And no, that doesn't make me a 'dumb viewer'.

^5'n yet another of your posts, here, Roland (except for the part about "Sony HDNA," lol)... angels on the heads of pins... :rolleyes:

^5'n yet another of your posts, here, Roland (except for the part about "Sony HDNA," lol)... angels on the heads of pins... :rolleyes:

I don't have a Sony but I couldn't help myself ;)

No flaw whatsoever. M Eve is a REAL scientific hypothethis. Based on DNA analysis of modern humans some evolutionary biologists contend that ONE woman was the antecedent of all modern humanity.

Not exactly. Mitochondrial eve is simply the most recent common ancestor of all humans today via maternal lines. It isn't that no other women at the time produced mitochondrial lines, it's that her's is the only line that can be linked to everyone today. If you look at DNA as whole, the most recent common ancestor of all humans alive today would fall much closer to our time, probably within the last 10,000 years.

In terms of the BSG story, it simply means that Hera probably had a number of daughters, who in turn had a number daughters, and so on. Something about her status as a human-cylon hybrid made her well suited to survival in her new environment and made her a successful producer of female offspring, who were also strong survivors and child bearers. The cylon bits of her genetic code would be long since diluted, but would have made for strong "breeding stock" for a good start in the harsh conditions of their new home.

Mitochondrial Eve isn't really a hypothesis. Not in the strictest sense of being testable and falsifiable. ME is a reasonable statistical assumption within our theories of genetics and evolution. But not falsifiable.

If, on the other hand, you meant "loose" interpretation, well... what else is there at this point?

I vote that we proceed from loose interpretations to downright promiscuous interpretations!

A good example of a promiscuous interpretation:

1. In ToS BSG, the Cylons creators were a long-gone lizard race.

2. ToS Cylons were never ordered to cease fire, and just went on waging endless wars.

3. In RDM BSG, the centurions were turned loose by the Colonials without orders.

4. Therefore, clearly we are lizard people.

See? It's just that easy. Never settle for a loose interpretation when a potentially promiscuous interpretation is just waiting to spring forth.

It true literally and figuratively. The human race as it existed, died off. It continued only through Hera and her descendants.


Sorry, but I think that's a misdirect.

Remember, they were calling themselves "humans." Humans exist today, so how did they die off.

The big question that seems to not be asked is will the current time humans which is actually part Cylon know not to make the same mistake of abusing robots.

I'm not exactly sure what a "lose" interpretation is. Is that when you interpret how someone is going to lose? :rolleyes:

If, on the other hand, you meant "loose" interpretation, well... what else is there at this point? It's an accurate interpretation, and there's no way to deny that, no matter how anyone wants to try to argue that point. Kara's input of that code using the notes of the song and only her input of that code provided the jump coordinates to "our Earth," which lead all the remaining members of both her species and its allies to their final destination, where they all lived out the rest of their lives, which meant their "ends" or their "deaths."

One certainly can't expect a "literal message" from a Cylon hybrid that runs ships and ordinarily speaks in all sorts of riddles that sound more like some kind of machine-code jibberish than anything that makes sense to begin with. So on the rare occasion(s) that those hybrids do make what appears to be an actual statement about someone, why would we expect it to have exact, literal meaning?

Your response, however, IS exactly the sort of nitpicking, arguing about "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin" sort of ongoing, seemingly "baiting" argument I fail to fathom reason for in this thread. I hesitated to make even this one response. It will cerrtainly be my only one. I really don't see how there is a more reasonable explanation than this, however.
Jeff

More importantly, it was the end of the Colonial civilization. They put all their 'stuff' they were hanging on to into the sun and started anew.

Jane Espenson on Kara, the "angels" and all that good stuff: http://galacticasitrep.blogspot.com/2009/03/angels-demons-projections.html

She has the same views as some of us here.

I loved the show till the moment they jumped in front what happened to be this earth, our own earth. I found it a rather cheesy ending, with all the imagination possible, they choose that kind of lame ending. I would have prefered a bit more original ending. I didn`t mind the divine interventions really, the very ending with the robots dancing and all along the watchtower hinted the cycle is not going to be broken yet, if ever. the latter a tiny bit redeemed it.

I vote that we proceed from loose interpretations to downright promiscuous interpretations!

A good example of a promiscuous interpretation:

1. In ToS BSG, the Cylons creators were a long-gone lizard race.

2. ToS Cylons were never ordered to cease fire, and just went on waging endless wars.

3. In RDM BSG, the centurions were turned loose by the Colonials without orders.

4. Therefore, clearly we are lizard people.

See? It's just that easy. Never settle for a loose interpretation when a potentially promiscuous interpretation is just waiting to spring forth.

Why do I get the feeling you are, indeed, quite promiscuoous, KittyCat??? :p (stickin' out my forked lizard tongue at ya!)

Not singling anyone out but I just wanted to say that it's a TV show, fer cryin out loud. The idea RDM is trying to get across is that we are all descended from Hera, who is a combination of cylon and human. He added the MC Hera remains scene 150,000 years later to hammer home the point.

Personally, I don't care if it's mtDNA, normal DNA or Sony HDNA. I get his point in context of the story and I don't really care if it makes sense from a real-world biological POV. And no, that doesn't make me a 'dumb viewer'.

Well said

Sorry, but I think that's a misdirect.

Remember, they were calling themselves "humans." Humans exist today, so how did they die off.

That wasn't really my point. 'humans' is just a word describing ourselves. Humans as THEY described themselves didn't include Cylon DNA.

Hera allowed both races to survive, but not as they were. Humans finally got to a place where they could accept that a hybrid cylon/human was their best hope for survival, but if you'd told them that a few years before they would have spit in your face. Hera was just as much Cylon as she was human...she could project, remember?

So the human race and the cylon race (humanoid) essentially came to an end...and started anew with Hera and her line.

That's the point RDM was trying to get across, we don't have to agree with his reasoning, but there it is.

There were 38,000 purely human survivors, who presumably were going to start breeding in force now that they finally found a new home, and one crossbreed in Hera. Tell me again how she became the "mother" of a new race?

There were 38,000 purely human survivors, who presumably were going to start breeding in force now that they finally found a new home, and one crossbreed in Hera. Tell me again how she became the "mother" of a new race?

....loose morals?

....loose morals?

:p Seen scratched on a petrified tree next to an ancient latrine: For a good time call Hera!

...snip...
That's the point RDM was trying to get across, we don't have to agree with his reasoning, but there it is.

I agree with what you're saying.

But I wouldn't exactly call it "reasoning." :)

Not sure if this has been mentioned before but I thought I'd spread it around.

"After Sci Fi Channel screened the "Battlestar Galactica" series finale for the press on Monday evening, there was a brief press conference featuring producers Ronald D. Moore and David Eick, and stars Mary McDonnell and Edward James Olmos."

http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html

This wrapped up alot of questions I had regarding the ending.

Good stuff!!! :)

Not exactly. Mitochondrial eve is simply the most recent common ancestor of all humans today via maternal lines. It isn't that no other women at the time produced mitochondrial lines, it's that her's is the only line that can be linked to everyone today. If you look at DNA as whole, the most recent common ancestor of all humans alive today would fall much closer to our time, probably within the last 10,000 years.

In terms of the BSG story, it simply means that Hera probably had a number of daughters, who in turn had a number daughters, and so on. Something about her status as a human-cylon hybrid made her well suited to survival in her new environment and made her a successful producer of female offspring, who were also strong survivors and child bearers. The cylon bits of her genetic code would be long since diluted, but would have made for strong "breeding stock" for a good start in the harsh conditions of their new home.

I agree completely. I thought this aspect of the finale was clever and interesting for a TV series.

There were 38,000 purely human survivors, who presumably were going to start breeding in force now that they finally found a new home, and one crossbreed in Hera. Tell me again how she became the "mother" of a new race?

Because there are no living humans today who DON'T have her DNA. She's just the earliest femail ancestor that we all have in common (in the BSG universe lol).

There were 38,000 purely human survivors, who presumably were going to start breeding in force now that they finally found a new home, and one crossbreed in Hera. Tell me again how she became the "mother" of a new race?

Because God wanted it that way. The 38,000 human survivors likely died off pretty fast after throwing away all their technology. Also, weren't there a bunch of cylons that also stayed on Earth? Maybe one of the angels made it possible for the cylons and humans to more easily breed. Apparently they really just needed true love, right? So maybe God sent Cupid?

Because there are no living humans today who DON'T have her DNA. She's just the earliest femail ancestor that we all have in common (in the BSG universe lol).

Then shouldn't those dormant Cylon genes still be in there somewhere? So maybe, if we squint real hard, we can project? I'd like to project a situation where Salma Hayek and I go off and live happily ever after in an FLW-designed house like Boomer did, for starters. :p

Because God wanted it that way. The 38,000 human survivors likely died off pretty fast after throwing away all their technology. Also, weren't there a bunch of cylons that also stayed on Earth? Maybe one of the angels made it possible for the cylons and humans to more easily breed. Apparently they really just needed true love, right?


That's making some assumptions the show didn't show. Humans are resilient. My guess is out of 38,000 of 'em, some of them started building stuff right away. Adama was going to build his cabin; Lee was going off exploring. I suspect the metallurgy learning curve, to cite just one example, would be very short for folks with their background.

But I'm having a little trouble with the whole "God" thing vis a vis the ending anyway, still, even after a second viewing. Einstein said that "God doesn't play dice with the universe." Well, that last comment made by Angel Six to Angel Baltar, about all the endless permutations eventually getting one "right", would seem to contradict that. And besides, what kind of a benevolent God would allow massive genocide to happen over and over? There's giving them free-will, and then there's something I can only term Devine Sadism. Looks to me like BSG's "God" (no matter what He likes to be called) crossed that line.

Then shouldn't those dormant Cylon genes still be in there somewhere? So maybe, if we squint real hard, we can project? I'd like to project a situation where Salma Hayek and I go off and live happily ever after in an FLW-designed house like Boomer did, for starters. :p




Indeed...stay thirsty my friends. :-)

Again, it only means we ALL have some Hera DNA, that does NOT preclude a person from also having some other Colonist DNA as well - just we don't ALL have Baltar DNA or ALL have Cally's baby's DNA, some people certainly will have some of that too.

TV Notes
Sci Fi orders 'Phantom,' 'Riverworld,' 'Alice'
From James Hibberd's Hollywood Reporter 'Live Feed' Blog - March 23, 2009

"Part of the fun of this is the reveal of who each character is," said Stern, whose network previously took a crack at a "Riverworld" pilot some years ago.


I remember it as not being very good. On the other hand, a couple of years ago they did a fascinating mini about a mysterious motel room with strange objects having mystical powers that was very well regarded, as I recall. Loads of potential. What happened to that project?


I liked the riverworld movie. i was hoping that they were going to do more but that was years ago. I had planned to read the books after seeing the movie on SciFi(SyFy:rolleyes:)but never got around to it.

I liked the riverworld movie. i was hoping that they were going to do more but that was years ago. I had planned to read the books after seeing the movie on SciFi(SyFy:rolleyes:)but never got around to it.

Aaron, the books are awesome. The movie really compressed a few of the books into one 2 hour TV movie, so it didn't really do it justice.

The author Philip Jose Farmer recently passed, but it's good to see his work is still being read/viewed/respected/discussed, etc.

You misinterpret the Mitochondrial Eve, which is a real scientific hypothethis. ME is NOT a skeleton as RDM the hack implies. It's an analysis of modern DNA which contends that everyone is descended from one particular woman 150,000 years ago.

Actually, I think they traced it back to a *group* of approximately 4 "women." OTOH, It has been awhile since I read the original article.

Again, it only means we ALL have some Hera DNA, that does NOT preclude a person from also having some other Colonist DNA as well - just we don't ALL have Baltar DNA or ALL have Cally's baby's DNA, some people certainly will have some of that too.

I never said that colonists' DNA had died out. Just the 'pure human' didn't exist anymore.

I loved the show till the moment they jumped in front what happened to be this earth, our own earth. I found it a rather cheesy ending, with all the imagination possible, they choose that kind of lame ending. I would have prefered a bit more original ending. I didn`t mind the divine interventions really, ....

Complete with the unrepentant sinners (Calvil's Cylons) getting tossed into the pit (black hole) .... and the repentant heros (Colonials and Cylons that renounced technology and freed the Centurions) gaining Paradise (Unspoiled New Earth) ..... And .... OMFG!!! the Scrolls of Pithia were actually "true!"

Gahhhhg! .... Pfffft! We've all been duped ... it was all religious propaganda from the start. ;)

The more I think about the finale and series, the less satisfying it becomes.

I never said that colonists' DNA had died out. Just the 'pure human' didn't exist anymore.

I didn't say YOU said that :p Others did though

This is kinda cute:

http://io9.com/5178837/spike-and-angel-debate-the-bsg-finale

I didn't say YOU said that :p Others did though

Well all right then :-)

Crap...what now? A sad feeling is coming over me. It's really really over. :-(

Actually, I think they traced it back to a *group* of approximately 4 "women." OTOH, It has been awhile since I read the original article.

This may help folks...It helped me correct my mis-rememberings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

Mitochondrial Eve (mt-mrca) is the name given by researchers to the woman who is defined as the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) for all currently living humans. Passed down from mother to offspring, her mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is now found in all living humans: every mtDNA in every living person is derived from hers. Mitochondrial Eve is the female counterpart of Y-chromosomal Adam, the patrilineal most recent common ancestor, although they lived at different times.

She is believed to have lived about 140,000 years ago in Eastern Africa: specifically, in what is now Ethiopia, Kenya, or Tanzania.

Mitochondrial Eve is the MRCA of all humans via the mitochondrial DNA pathway, not the unqualified MRCA of all humanity. All living humans can trace their ancestry back to the MRCA via at least one of their parents, but Mitochondrial Eve is defined via the maternal line. Therefore, she necessarily lived at least as long, though likely much longer, ago than the MRCA of all humanity.

Why do I get the feeling you are, indeed, quite promiscuoous, KittyCat??? :p (stickin' out my forked lizard tongue at ya!)

Well, ya know that the promiscuity levels of the fans of any given show is directly proportional to the promiscuity depicted on the show. So ... carry the 3 ... multiply by 7 ... divide by 4 ... well, all the folks who watch BSG are unspeakable degenerates.

If only...

So, here's the real remaining question -- how long will it take this thread to actually die?

So, here's the real remaining question -- how long will it take this thread to actually die?

Completely? A while I'm guessing. It'll die for a few months but may come back once they air the movie in the fall.

Or when the DVDs are released (in July?) and we see the extended versions of some of these episodes.

By the way...all this talk about ME...I don't know how many others are like me, but I don't really care about the true scientific nature of it. I got what RDM was trying to convey (as others here have). I don't care whether or not it's scientifically sound. If I gave a rats ass about any of that I would have stopped watching this show a long time ago since they've never focused on the details of scientific fact before.

^Most science fiction is more fiction than science anyway, so your approach is most likely the one to increase the ability to enjoy an opus like BSG.

...how long will it take this thread to actually die?

Perhaps it will not die, but rather merge with another thread and become a hybrid....:D

Actually, it's already died (all that carping and whining in the past few pages sent it to "the other side" with Anders and Starbuck), but then it came back in a shiny new thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1132334) to point the way to more BSG'verse goodness next year! :)

Well, ya know that the promiscuity levels of the fans of any given show is directly proportional to the promiscuity depicted on the show. So ... carry the 3 ... multiply by 7 ... divide by 4 ... well, all the folks who watch BSG are unspeakable degenerates.

If only...

So, here's the real remaining question -- how long will it take this thread to actually die?

Like MacArthur:

"....it just fades away...".

But before it fades away...

A neat little article. (http://www.alternet.org/movies/133419/battlestar_galactica:_immersion_therapy_for_post_9_11_world/?page=entire) It goes along with my view that the finale wasn't exactly "sunshine and butterflies" as some have made it out to be.

But before it fades away...

A neat little article. (http://www.alternet.org/movies/133419/battlestar_galactica:_immersion_therapy_for_post_9_11_world/?page=entire) It goes along with my view that the finale wasn't exactly "sunshine and butterflies" as some have made it out to be.

Now that we're into publishing thoughts from elsewhere...

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2009/03/20/battlestar-galactica-watched-the-finale-still-got-questions-weve-got-answers/#comment-5479

Jeff Says: March 21st, 2009 at 3:27 am
I could not have been more disappointed with the cowardly ambiguity of this finale. You built Kara up to be something, but without even your own idea as to what. That’s not writing. That’s daydreaming. You built Hera up to be something, but she turned out to be nothing more than a little girl. She affected nothing. You turned Adama into a simpering goat, who dealt with death on a daily basis but abandoned his son and everyone else because Rosslyn was dying. Apollo had lost a wife. Kara had lost a husband. Adama can’t suck it up and accept death? Hard to take.

The head six and head Baltar were “angels” all along. No scientific explanation even attempted. Not for them. Not for Kara. Not for everyone’s various visions. All the work of some higher power. All along, we’re watching a show about a chaotic God who sometimes wants to do good, sometimes wants to do evil, and only plays with a few selected characters. No further explanation given. There’s a fine line between clever and stupid, but this is just disrespectful to your fans.

You abandoned your prophecies - the dying leader DID live to see the new world. Kara Thrace was NOT the harbinger of anyone’s death.

And her body was found on the old dead Earth. Yet the song led her to the new Earth. Yet the Viper was built to go to the old Earth. Yet the planet you showed when she returned was the new Earth. All it means is that you didn’t know what the heck you were doing. It meant nothing.

The song woke up the cylons, but she heard it too. Her father taught it to her. And you can say it was a “music is universal” meme, but that’s garbage. THAT song was the coordinates to Earth. Hera drew it. Kara typed it. But if it was God, why did it wake up the Cylons? Did God do that? If it was a cylon trigger, why did Kara know it in her youth? She wasn’t any part Cylon, according to you.

That’s writing of convenience. It’s lazy, undeserving of the build up you gave it, of the accolades you once received, and of your viewer’s intelligence. Deus Ex Machina is the simplest, tackiest “get out of jail free” card in writing, and you used it like carnival tickets, basically saying “God did it” for every one of your plot holes. Angels. Demons. Toy Robot montages. Hackery.

It’s like saying, “Well, we wanted to leave it up to the viewer’s imagination weather or not Frodo made it to Mordor. Or weather Gollum was a hero or a villain.” Garbage. A writer makes decisions and tells a tale. If you intend on being ambiguous to encourage thought or posit the unknowable, then you do it with strong writing, and you tell your viewer that’s what it’s going to be. We didn’t need to see what Roy’s life was going to be like at the end of Close Encounters, we were artfully delivered to a place where our imagination could take over, and every promise made leading up to that point had been fulfilled. We know we’re not meant to understand the end of 2001. We were clearly told that whatever was happening was beyond understanding, but, like David Bowman, we had to know anyway.

You made promise after promise, blatantly advertising, “They have a plan” and “You will know the truth”. But you did either. There was NO plan revealed, and not one single truth resolved in the finale. If you need ANOTHER two hours to wrap things up, unable to fit the narrative into a season of virtually hollow episodes, then all you’re doing is explaining yourself after the reading of the tale is complete. That means the tale itself was incomplete.

There are spans of Galactica that are brilliant. But you brought it home in a mess that left no threads tied, no questions answered (apparently even in your own mind), and little satisfaction. What’s worse, is that in failing to resolve these threads, you’ve damaged the watchability of some previous great hours of television. Going back, I’ll know the prophesies meant NOTHING. The Opera House was no more than Baltar and Six taking a scared child to safety - the same exact place that Athena or Rosslyn themselves would have taken her. And that there was no outcome she affected, other than as a hostage that both sides cared for. It could have been Kara or Apollo or anyone that had been taken, rescued, and then held at gunpoint. Anyone. I’ll know that when Kara returns, there is no payoff. Just a wandering random two-planet confusion. Hours of foreshadowing and build up and prophecy that you DID NOT EVEN ATTEMPT to resolve. Just end.

An ending is not a resolution. Galactica may have ended tonight, but you robbed your fans of a resolution.

Except I posted an actual article as apposed to some random dude whose opinion I don't care about.

You should have posted the rebuttal post lower down (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2009/03/20/battlestar-galactica-watched-the-finale-still-got-questions-weve-got-answers/#comment-5554) if you're just going to quote some random ramblings (though he is wrong on point #2).


And keep in mind that a lot of the negative comments over there have to do with the fact that "god" played a major role. You know...despite it being blatantly in your face for 4 seasons.

Edit: And this is what Jeff said later: You guys prove my point. Matt, especially. In your defense of the show’s ambiguity, you’re filling in the holes for the show’s writers. YOU are providing clarity from your imagination that was not present in the tale THEY told.

So he wants everything spelled out for him in some neat little package with no ambiguity or mystery whatsoever. That would just be awful.

to quote jeff spicoli..."hey, i know that dude !"

thats jeff hayes a poster from here....clues are: name=jeff, discovery mag, capital letters.

ps - how does sean penn not win an oscar for that.

to quote jeff spicoli..."hey, i know that dude !"

thats jeff hayes a poster from here....clues are: name=jeff, discovery mag, capital letters.

ps - how does sean penn not win an oscar for that.

I'm pretty sure the Jeff here liked it though. :p

As for Sean Penn, is there a bigger douche who's a great actor? I mean, the dude can act, but he's just so unlikable. lol

& just to bring it full circle:

1 of spicolis surfer dude friends in the food joint is.........eric stoltz ....who is in caprica !

"no shoes, no shirt, no dice"
"wow"


its a small galaxy huh.

But before it fades away...

A neat little article. (http://www.alternet.org/movies/133419/battlestar_galactica:_immersion_therapy_for_post_9_11_world/?page=entire) It goes along with my view that the finale wasn't exactly "sunshine and butterflies" as some have made it out to be.

Quite a good article. Thanks.

Did Pythia actually say the leader would die before seeing the promised land? Or are we conflating Moses a little too directly with Roslin?

As for Jeff . . . maybe he's got a little Boomer in him. Can't pick a side. People are entitled to ambiguous feelings toward BSG if it even is him. I don't think the show ever invited people to feel entirely positive about it ever.

Quite a good article. Thanks.
Your welcome. ;)

Did Pythia actually say the leader would die before seeing the promised land? Or are we conflating Moses a little too directly with Roslin?

As for Jeff . . . maybe he's got a little Boomer in him. Can't pick a side. People are entitled to ambiguous feelings toward BSG if it even is him. I don't think the show ever invited people to feel entirely positive about it ever.

I'm pretty sure they did indeed say that the dying leader wouldn't live to see the people reach the promise land (I don't know the actual wording but it's something like that). But here's the thing about the Pythian prophecy...wasn't it talking about Earth 1? So if the dying leader really was going to die, they would have died before they got to Earth 1, much less Earth 2. And I thought the failure of the Pythian prophecies is what led to the general confusion once they found Earth 1 (and also led to so many other things, like Baltar's religion gaining followers) since they no longer had any sort of a guide on what to do next.

Knowing what we know now, it does make Roslin's visions of the priestess woman (can't remember her name) when the baseship was jumping a little more interesting.

And I've bitched about episodes myself, but a lot of the complaints over at discover have to do with "god" being present in the show. Which to me is just silly. I mean, it is fiction after all (beside the concept being there since the first episode). Just because they say god and angels (or something like a god and angels) exist on the show, doesn't mean you have to start believing in them in real life. I mean, I'm an atheist and two of my favorite shows are BSG (all-time favorite) and Carnivàle. lol Good storytelling is good storytelling, no matter what the subject matter.

I liked the riverworld movie. i was hoping that they were going to do more but that was years ago. I had planned to read the books after seeing the movie on SciFi(SyFy:rolleyes:)but never got around to it.

Me too, Aaron -- very much. I didn't see it when it originally aired... Wasn't even aware of its existence at that time. But I caught it as a re-run movie late at night on the PsiPhi channel twice since then, and both times I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was pretty obvious by the way it ended that it was intended as the pilot for a TV series, and both times I was disappointed that I didn't see follow-up advertising from PsiPhi that they were going to make a series out of it.

Frankly, I thought that original pilot was good enough that if most of the major actors are still available, they could likely just run it again and pick up from there. I particularly liked how they introduced some of the more famous characters from Earth's history (most of whom were very guarded about their actual identities and with whom that lived after them they shared them). As you might well guess, one of my favorites was the "river boat captain."

As for that long "article, or Blog," or whatever it was posted above with the name "Jeff," TRUST ME, that was not me! I would think as complimentary as I've been of BSG overall, and the finale, in particular, that NOBODY could possibly have imagined I'd have posted something like that elsewhere, unless I was simply really trying to "rattle someone's cage," and were that the case, you'd likely have seen some of my sarcasm in there, as well, lol.

I've got the entire 3 hours of finale on HD DVR (first time ever recorded in HD), plus the "Best Frackin' Special Ever," but I haven't gotten around to watching them again, yet (although I watched both through twice "live." I'll likely save them for a long time -- perhaps permanently, regardless of how much or how often I watch them, regardless.
Jeff

And I've bitched about episodes myself, but a lot of the complaints over at discover have to do with "god" being present in the show. Which to me is just silly. I mean, it is fiction after all (beside the concept being there since the first episode). Just because they say god and angels (or something like a god and angels) exist on the show, doesn't mean you have to start believing in them in real life. I mean, I'm an atheist and two of my favorite shows are BSG (all-time favorite) and Carnivàle. lol Good storytelling is good storytelling, no matter what the subject matter.

Pretty much this. And the argument goes that "God caused everything" and that's a cop out.

I never saw it as god caused everything. The entire story was a play on the intertwining of our very human concepts of Destiny and Free Will.

I mean, people are arguing that the final five survived because god did. I love the retroactive hate and justification, but come on guys. That's a jump you can't make, and a justification because you just can't put down your atheist bias for two seconds and enjoy a good story. In fact, God did very little and left the actors up to their own free will. He had an opinion, but he didn't play a full hand; instead influencing from the fringes.

Kara, Baltar, Adama, Laura, Caprica; they were never forced in their decisions, nor were they ever protected.

One guy on another tubes was arguing that the god/faith concept in DS9 worked, but this didn't, and that they never went into faith and god in this series till the last episode :confused:

But before it fades away...

A neat little article. (http://www.alternet.org/movies/133419/battlestar_galactica:_immersion_therapy_for_post_9_11_world/?page=entire) It goes along with my view that the finale wasn't exactly "sunshine and butterflies" as some have made it out to be.

Loved it...some interesting thoughts!!

I'm pretty sure they did indeed say that the dying leader wouldn't live to see the people reach the promise land

I can't find it. Battlestar Wiki says it's mentioned by the priestess in the Hand of God episode (the Colonial attack on the refining facility in season 1).

What kills me is that BSG was a show with a thick show bible. By all accounts, their show bible had a lot of background that never even makes it to the screen.

Say whatever you will about RDM, but Moore sure didn't let his story get in the way of his show, did he?

Well, I'm just about spent on BSG discussion... I think it's time to make my contribution to not expanding this thread anymore.

Pretty much this. And the argument goes that "God caused everything" and that's a cop out.

I don't have a problem with "God Did It," in fact on one level BSG is a story about how the many religions and visions of "armaggeddon" might have originated.

Head 6 = Kali ... Head Baltar = Shiva ... etc, etc

My problem with the ending is that it implies that the Colonial scriptures were literally "True" and by extension so must be certain current "prophecies." I don't know if that was the intent, but it certainly resonates that way.

Oh, and apparently "God" does play dice with the Universe and all it's creatures .... ;) :D

As to the "dying leader not living to see the people reach the promised land", perhaps the assumption that the "leader" was either Roslin or Bill Adama is incorrect. Maybe it was Starbuck all along. Certainly, by the time she finally offed herself, she was dying inside. She had lost all hope and was just acting on instinct. So she dies, but in doing so is able to set a chain in motion by her "resurrection" that ultimately leads them to New Earth, and a new shot at getting it right. Then, mission accomplished, she finally finds the happiness and contentment that eluded her for her entire life and "ascends" to "the other side". Insert your Judeo-Christian analogy here. The fact that they ultimately may go down the same path again, as evidenced by the epilogue, is evidence of a fundamental flaw in humanity - free will? - that not only defines us, but ultimately continues to destroy us. Nonetheless, as Angel Six says, there's always hope that maybe this time, we'll get it right. And the implication is that "God" will continue to "play dice with the universe" until we do, in fact, get it right and are able to continue man's journey to a place of ultimate enlightenment and peace.

Food for thought, which has always been the whole idea of this show. I suspect that many of us may look at the ending of this series differently after a period of time and reflection.

Interesting take on Starbuck being the leader. Certainly by the end Roslin was too ill to do any actual leading.

...and it was Starbuck who did the final jump calculation that took them to Earth-2. Of course, she wasn't dying at the time--just dead--but alive. Sort of.

OK.

Now I'm starting to develope a "tic".

...and it was Starbuck who did the final jump calculation that took them to Earth-2.

Starbuck did no calculations. She just punched in numbers that Hera had written as musical notes.

fafner

Starbuck did no calculations. She just punched in numbers that Hera had written as musical notes.

fafner

Well, she did and she didn't.

(tic is getting worse.)

Starbuck did no calculations. She just punched in numbers that Hera had written as musical notes.

fafner

Yes, she did. They showed her pouring over a sheet of paper that had calculations written all over it as she worked it out. Don't know how you could have missed that.

Yes, she did. They showed her pouring over a sheet of paper that had calculations written all over it as she worked it out. Don't know how you could have missed that.

I was just about to post the same thing. She is the one who created the calculations to turn the musical notes into the jump co-ordinates. I think the room she was in was kind of cold as well...she was cold and calculating.

Well...actually...she didn't "calculate".

She "interpreted".

or....transposed...or translated.

Well...actually...she didn't "calculate".

She "interpreted".

:confused: What do you mean? She wrote the calculations, based on the musical notes, from which the jump coordinates were derived.

:confused: What do you mean? She wrote the calculations, based on the musical notes, from which the jump coordinates were derived.

The calculations were written/done by someone/something else in the form of musical notes.

She simply (or not simply) interpreted/translated them. Like it or not.

OK.

Now I'm starting to develope a "tic".

Let me know when you get a "tock" to go along with that. :D

I can't find it. Battlestar Wiki says it's mentioned by the priestess in the Hand of God episode (the Colonial attack on the refining facility in season 1).


The episode title made finding it really easy...Control+F for "dying" for the win.

Elosha: She also wrote that the leader suffered a wasting disease and would not live to enter the new land. But you're not dying... are you? (http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/battlestar/season1/galactica-110.htm)

I don't know how many of you read Bear McCreary's blog, but he discusses the numbers/keys here under the title "Generating Kara’s Coordinates." (http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=1760#more-1760) It goes into pretty deep detail.

And Moore answered questions over on SciFi's forum: http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2329378&st=0

The calculations were written/done by someone else in the form of musical notes.

She simply (or not simply) interpreted them. Like it or not.

The notes were timeless; they had always been there as long as this struggle had continued. They always pointed the way to New Earth; presumably that's what "God" wanted. But it took Starbuck and her calculations to ferret that meaning out and turn them into jump coordinates. It was all her, so I guess you could say she "interpreted" the notes if you want. The Final Fivers could hear them because in some fashion the notes were permanently embedded for them, but they were never able to make the connection. Kara was the leader that would take them to their end: "End of Line" as the hybrids put it (the separate Cylon and human lines, that is).

I guess we are discussing semantics:

Calculation vs. Interpretation. Fair enough. I just don't think she was the one to "calculate". It was done by someone else, many years ago. She just figured out the numerical translation.

Let me know when you get a "tock" to go along with that. :D

Tic Tock:

"Time, they say, is the fire in which we burn!"

I guess we are discussing semantics:

Calculation vs. Interpretation. Fair enough. I just don't think she was the one to "calculate". It was done by someone else, many years ago. She just figured out the numerical translation.

I can live with that. :)

I can live with that. :)

Me, too. (kissy, kissy)

And, not to get too mushy, but that's the ultimate message of the show isn't it? Lee knew that the only way to even have a shot at breaking the cycle was to compromise with the "implacable" enemy. The other leaders, Roslin, Adama, Cavel, all advocated fighting to the death (the only way to be "sure"). And Lee also knew that if they brought any of their advanced technology with them, they would probably soon annihilate the existing indigenous natives (although we're free to speculate that might have been the fate of the Neanderthals) and the process would quickly begin again. Lee's way, as difficult as it was, was the only way.

I guess we are discussing semantics:

Calculation vs. Interpretation. Fair enough. I just don't think she was the one to "calculate". It was done by someone else, many years ago. She just figured out the numerical translation.

Yes. What she did was put a blank sheet of music paper over Hera's spots. Her contirbution was to realize that the spots were acually music. From that she knew the numbers. No calculations necessary, only intrepretation.

fafner

The episode title made finding it really easy...Control+F for "dying" for the win.

Elosha: She also wrote that the leader suffered a wasting disease and would not live to enter the new land. But you're not dying... are you? (http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/battlestar/season1/galactica-110.htm)

I don't know how many of you read Bear McCreary's blog, but he discusses the numbers/keys here under the title "Generating Kara’s Coordinates." (http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/?p=1760#more-1760) It goes into pretty deep detail.

And Moore answered questions over on SciFi's forum: http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2329378&st=0

And Roslin didn't live to "enter" the new land, technically, because although she did live long enough to land on Earth, she died before Adama could land their Raptor (or Viper -- I confuse them) on the spot he'd picked as their "new home."

So once again, we do get into semantics, but "technically" she never did live to see her "new home," because she died before he actually got them there, while looking at a flock of flamingos.

Yet again, interpretation is everything, and this probably really is splitting hairs, but I think it's technically true that she never did see her "new home."
Jeff

Yes. What she did was put a blank sheet of music paper over Hera's spots. Her contirbution was to realize that the spots were acually music. From that she knew the numbers. No calculations necessary, only intrepretation.

fafner

No, there had to be calculations - that's what we saw on that paper, remember? - to get to the numbers that needed to be fed into the jump computer. She couldn't merely "interpret", she needed to calculate, and we saw the equations that she wrote due to her calculatin', ferfrakkinoutloud. Whatever - fafner, you are a stubborn one. As SkyLite and I concluded, it's all semantics anyway. Let it go; there are far more important issues to discuss as long as the thread continues.

No, there had to be calculations - that's what we saw on that paper, remember? - to get to the numbers that needed to be fed into the jump computer. She couldn't merely "interpret", she needed to calculate, and we saw the equations that she wrote due to her calculatin', ferfrakkinoutloud. Whatever - fafner, you are a stubborn one. As SkyLite and I concluded, it's all semantics anyway. Let it go; there are far more important issues to discuss as long as the thread continues.

Groucho....you aren't playing fair. :)

No, there had to be calculations - that's what we saw on that paper, remember? - to get to the numbers that needed to be fed into the jump computer. She couldn't merely "interpret", she needed to calculate, and we saw the equations that she wrote due to her calculatin', ferfrakkinoutloud. Whatever - fafner, you are a stubborn one. As SkyLite and I concluded, it's all semantics anyway. Let it go; there are far more important issues to discuss as long as the thread continues.

Why did you do this? We had an agreement that is was semantics. How should I trust you again? That surprised me.

"Time, they say, is the fire in which we burn!"

star trek: generations - the guy that looked like sting.

da doo doo doo....da da da da.