Mitsubishi states that their 1394/firewire inputs on all their 1080P DLP sets will acccept a 1080P signal.

Originally posted by aaronwt
Mitsubishi states that their 1394/firewire inputs on all their 1080P DLP sets will acccept a 1080P signal.

Careful... Mits says "All Mitsubishi 1080p models will also receive an MPEG 1080p 24 fps signal via broadcast or IEEE-1394 input..." Not the same as an uncompressed 1080p @ 60hz.

Originally posted by schaffer970
... It is also not clear (at least to me) what might be possible over the D-Net (1394/firewire).

It's not clear to me either and this makes me wonder even more:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/audiovideocables.php

Scroll down to the paragraph on IEEE-1394.

I wouldn't expect firewire to accept an uncompressed signal. It doesn't have the bandwidth. The TV does the decoding. But I see it is also for MPEG2, so I don't know how that would come into play with Blu-Ray.

Is there any indication (FCC site, manual?) that the Sammy 1080p's have a built-in MPEG decoder?

Originally posted by UCSB
Since you live in Castro Valley, you could just drive over the Magnolia HiFi in San Ramon and take a look at the Qualia 006 and the Samsung 5067. I shop at Whole Foods next door every Friday, and visit that Magnolia many times. But I've not seen the Qualia 006. I'll take a look at it and the Samsung 5067 tomorrow! :)



Originally posted by UCSB
If someone has definitely made the decision, based on price, that they are going to go with the 67 series ... then they should do themself a favor, buy the set and don't go down and look at 1080p units. Period! Especially, in the larger screen sizes (61" plus). After seeing the 1080p Qualia the other night, I don't think I will ever look at my 720p set the same again. Well, that pretty much says it all right there. In my mind, that is a clear decision. I'll take a look at both models tomorrow. I'd like to see a 1080i feed, 720p feed and DVD. I have a total budget of $11.5K, incl the $4.8K for the 6168W and $1.4K for my Salamander stand. But, the installer I'm working with has his connections and I am certain he will obtain an attractive price. We'll be talking in detail soon, at which time I will know of the speakers, receiver, DVD player, etc., he'll recommend. Thanks for such a thorough response, UCSB.

donb1948, yes there is an MPEG decoder built in to the HLR sets. It is the Xilleon 226 from ATI for the 66, 67, 77, 87 & 88 series. However I do not know if it will do MPEG-4 (which is what will be outputted from HD DVD/Blu-ray) and can't find out anything from ATI as their website is down. I went back and looked at the press release from Samsung and ATI regarding the chips that would be used in the new HLRs and they leave out any mention of the 68/78 series. I'm not sure what this means. Also the 68/78 have not come up on the FCC site yet. Maybe Samsung has been tweaking the electronics in them up to the last minute? Who knows. Hopefully FCC approval will come in the next few days and more questions will be answered.

Originally posted by Enversions
In regards to this comment:

The new Samsung sets will have a native display resolution 1080p but can not accept a 1080p signal. This means that no matter what signal you send to the TV (480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i), the set will have to internally process the signal (scale/deinterlace) to get the 1080p signal for display. Thus, no matter how well your external scaler works and no matter how good a signal it produces, the signal will be further manipulated by the internal TV systems before display.

...

Best Regards,
Adam

I am currently running a MyHD MDP-130 HDTV card ($249) in my P4 computer and displaying the output at a 1600 x 1200 resolution on a Viewsonic P815 CRT monitor. This cuts out a little of the horizontal picture but I get the full 1080 lines of vertical resoultion. So I am looking at 1080p while everyone else is just talking about it.

I have line-of-sight to Mt. Wilson in the LA area and a good antenna and I will tell you that the picture I see on this screen from a 1080i signal is better than anything I have ever seen at Circuit City or Best Buy. The only thing that is close is the Qualia 006. If you guys are worried about the processing of 1080i to 1080p degrading your picture I think you are worring way too much. You can see the pimples on the pimples. The picture I get from my $249 card is simply spectacular and I fully expect to see something just as good from a 1080i feed when Samsung brings out their 1080p sets. If a $249 card can do it I have to assume a $6000 HDTV can as well.

Time will tell. I could be wrong but I don't think I am.

Originally posted by schaffer970
donb1948, yes there is an MPEG decoder built in to the HLR sets. It is the Xilleon 226 from ATI for the 66, 67, 77, 87 & 88 series. However I do not know if it will do MPEG-4 (which is what will be outputted from HD DVD/Blu-ray) and can't find out anything from ATI as their website is down. I went back and looked at the press release from Samsung and ATI regarding the chips that would be used in the new HLRs and they leave out any mention of the 68/78 series. I'm not sure what this means. Also the 68/78 have not come up on the FCC site yet. Maybe Samsung has been tweaking the electronics in them up to the last minute? Who knows. Hopefully FCC approval will come in the next few days and more questions will be answered.

I am pissed. Whatever the Xilleon 226 does it's not on my soon to be HLR-4667, just the 4266, and 5067. Why? Is the HLR-4667 a piece of junk? Why isn't it on the HLR-4667 sets? What is the HLR-4667 using instead, the Xilleon negative 103?

Originally posted by InterceptPoint
I am currently running a MyHD MDP-130 HDTV card ($249) in my P4 computer and displaying the output at a 1600 x 1200 resolution on a Viewsonic P815 CRT monitor. This cuts out a little of the horizontal picture but I get the full 1080 lines of vertical resoultion. So I am looking at 1080p while everyone else is just talking about it.

Displaying all 1080 horizontal lines on that monitor is impossible unless you are cropping the image to 4:3. When you scale down the 1920 horizontal pixels to 1600, you have to scale the 1080 vertical pixels to just 900 pixels. If you didn't, everyone on screen would look very tall and thin. :)

Displaying all 1080 horizontal lines on that monitor is impossible unless you are cropping the image to 4:3. When you scale down the 1920 horizontal pixels to 1600, you have to scale the 1080 vertical pixels to just 900 pixels. If you didn't, everyone on screen would look very tall and thin.

It sounds like he's cropping it a-la pan and scan, not scaling it down. Either way, this sounds like something I'd like to play around with on my PC, since I have the resolution to do so. I wonder if my CPU can handle it ....

-Breddy

Originally posted by schaffer970
Enversions is talking about 1080P on the VGA (analog) input.
I have been reading Post #1 for almost 4 months now and until Enversions mentioned it in his post, I had completely "not noticed" the reference to the VGA input on the HL-Rxx68's taking a 1920 x 1080p @ 60 hz signal, probably because I've always looked at VGA as a "computer" input and I have no interest in attaching a computer to my future HDTV. But, now more learning is obviously necessary. Can anyone provide answers to the following or direct me to a good place to find answers:
1. Enversions approach to avoiding internal processing seems logical to me. It might even be simpler than stated since both the iScan HD+ & Algolith Dragonfly both have RGB analog outputs (VGA HD-15 on the former and VGA-QXGA on the latter.) Are there any technical reasons why this might not work? Fundamentally, are there any reasons for not wanting to use the Sammy VGA input IF both VGA and HDMI inputs capable of 1080p @ 60hz were available. Are there any compromises involved with the VGA input relative to the hypothetical 1080p HDMI input?
2. Any comments on expected impact on PQ using the VGA input. One of Samsung's selling points for their DLP(tm) TV is the totally digital signal path to the display. Will there be extra DA/AD conversions involved using the VGA input?

Not looking for treatise - the Cliff Notes version would be fine.

Thanks.

Since the VGA input is analog, even if you input a 1080P signal, won't it have to do some processing since it has to convert it from analog to digital? If it could accept an HDMI 1080P signal won't it stay digital assuming you input a 1080P digital signal?

Yes, I would think so. However, it's now AD/DA processing and not deinterlacing or scaling. Any insight as to what impact, if any, this might have on PQ.

Originally posted by Breddy
It sounds like he's cropping it a-la pan and scan, not scaling it down. Either way, this sounds like something I'd like to play around with on my PC, since I have the resolution to do so. I wonder if my CPU can handle it ....

-Breddy

Oh yeah, I missed that statement, even though I quoted it. Yuck! I'd rather scale down.

Re: MyHD MDP-130 HDTV card.

I have the resolution setting at 1440 x 1080 on the MDP-130. In this mode it appears to crop the 1920 horizontal pixels to 1440 and fully display the 1080 vertical resolution. The output to the monitor is standard VGA so I am looking at 1080p video on an analog monitor and am "suffering" a D/A conversion.

I have to admit that I was shocked (very pleasantly) when I installed this card and had a look at the very high quality I got from the 1080i inputs. It was better by far than my father's 50" Runco 720p plasma.

It is also worth noting that 720p over-the-air signals do not look nearly as sharp as the 1080i. This is certainly due in part to the scaling in the MDP-130 to a 1080 line output. I have re-set the resolution to 1024 x 768 and tried various MDP-130 resolutions but I don't think any of these delivered the overall PQ of the 1080i transmissions.

Just hoping that the Samsung units can deliver the equivalent. We will all know in a month or so.

InterceptPoint, are you watching Fox's broadcasts to determine that 720p isn't as sharp? Don't! :) Fox has been using lower bandwidth than the other networks until it could be sure that all of their local stations could handle the full bandwidth. That is why their video doesn't look up to snuff. This Summer, they will be increasing the bandwidth they send to their stations and picture quality should improve a ton.

Also, remember that you sit a lot closer to a monitor than a TV. So I wouldn't be surprised at all if 1080p looks sharper at that distance than 720p.

While in the process of extensively researching the HLR5067 (ie. lurking here) I've recently seen the 5087 available at some online retailers. After emailing to confirm availability & warranty info and receiving an affirmative reply, I began digging into the 5087/5687 manual. As best I can tell, there is no VGA input. The area where the VGA & PC audio ports were located on the 5085 is now home to the digital audio out and Sammy's Anynet.
I realize that an etailor's email is not a true product confirmation, but perhaps the first post should be updated to acknowledge the absence of a VGA input on the HLRxx87 series. I know that post has been indispensable in my search for a new display, and of course would like to see it remain as accurate as is possible.
Finally, some speculative questions. How certain is everyone about the chip? Given the apparent lack of VGA (and looking now, IEEE 1394 is absent from the manual as well) is this model similar in spirit to the HLRxx77 (minimal upgrades to an existing product in order to remain FCC compliant - i.e. the now mandatory ATSC tuner)? I guess I was expecting more from the HLRxx87 given its much lauded predecessor. Apart from a HD2+ vs "HD4" debate, any new thoughts on this model?

Originally posted by 7ate9
The area where the VGA & PC audio ports were located on the 5085 is now home to the digital audio out and Sammy's Anynet.
I realize that an etailor's email is not a true product confirmation, but perhaps the first post should be updated to acknowledge the absence of a VGA input on the HLRxx87 series.

DONE ... POST #1 updated to indicate no VGA/PC.

Originally posted by UCSB
DONE ... POST #1 updated to indicate no VGA/PC.

Also, indicated NO 1394 on HLRxx87W in POST #1.

Originally posted by 7ate9
How certain is everyone about the chip? Given the apparent lack of VGA (and looking now, IEEE 1394 is absent from the manual as well) is this model similar in spirit to the HLRxx77 (minimal upgrades to an existing product in order to remain FCC compliant - i.e. the now mandatory ATSC tuner)? I guess I was expecting more from the HLRxx87 given its much lauded predecessor. Apart from a HD2+ vs "HD4" debate, any new thoughts on this model?

We have heard virtually nothing about this model (HLR5087W). If you liked the HLPxx85W models, then this would be worth a look. It should be easy to compare a HLPxx85W model to the new HLR5067W and form your own conclusions. If you find the HLR5087W anywhere and can confirm HD2+ pixel pattern, please let us know. I'd like to close out that open issue.

Originally posted by UCSB
If you find the HLR5087W anywhere and can confirm HD2+ pixel pattern, please let us know. I'd like to close out that open issue.
Although I haven't seen the unit to verify the pattern, the following excerpt from the Samsung product page for the HLRxx87 leads me to believe it makes use of a wobbulated chip, and not the HD2+

Home > Products > TV, Video & Audio > TV > DLP TV > HL-R5087W
Cinema Smooth 720p Light Engine

Samsung's Cinema Smooth 720p light engine is the culmination of years of industry-leading research and development. It releases the maximum power of the new generation of DMD microdisplays for the most film-like picture. It creates an image with no visible pixel structure and accurate shading and better low-light detail.
The Samsung website seems to only use the phrase "...an image with no visible pixel structure..." when referring to displays with wobbulated chips. This is pure speculation mind you, and given the multiplicity of conflicting info out there we won't know for certain until someone can verify the pattern.

Originally posted by Shape
InterceptPoint, are you watching Fox's broadcasts to determine that 720p isn't as sharp? ...

In Los Angeles we have channels 2-4-5-9-13 broadcasting at 1080i. Channel 7 (ABC) and Channel 11 (Fox) are 720p. So yes I am using Fox as my test case. And now that you mention it, ABC does look much better than Fox when they actually transmit some real HD content.

I just saw the HLR-5067 at Best Buy in Marlborough, MA (thanks for the tip, Shape) and it looked good. REALLY good. They have it a couple of units away from the old Kirk set, so I couldn't make TOO direct a comparison, but from what I saw today I can honestly say I like the 5067 better. I was previously a HD2+ bigot, so that's saying something :)

Unfortunately they only had a HD feed running so I couldn't check it out in SD. It looked fantastic in HD, though: brilliant colors and good detail. In fact, it made the kirk seem TOO detailed, if that's possible. I wouldn't say the 5067 was "soft", I'd instead say the kirk was "hard". If that makes any sense then more power too you :)

Of course everyone will have their own opinions on wobulated vs HD2+ and that's fine. I'm just saying that after seeing the 5067's HD4 I'm defecting from the HD2+ camp. Don't rule out the HD4 until you see it... you might be surprised.

Originally posted by pervtab
I just saw the HLR-5067 at Best Buy in Marlborough, MA (thanks for the tip, Shape) and it looked good. REALLY good. They have it a couple of units away from the old Kirk set, so I couldn't make TOO direct a comparison, but from what I saw today I can honestly say I like the 5067 better. I was previously a HD2+ bigot, so that's saying something :)

Unfortunately they only had a HD feed running so I couldn't check it out in SD. It looked fantastic in HD, though: brilliant colors and good detail. In fact, it made the kirk seem TOO detailed, if that's possible. I wouldn't say the 5067 was "soft", I'd instead say the kirk was "hard". If that makes any sense then more power too you :)

Of course everyone will have their own opinions on wobulated vs HD2+ and that's fine. I'm just saying that after seeing the 5067's HD4 I'm defecting from the HD2+ camp. Don't rule out the HD4 until you see it... you might be surprised.

Thank you! I have a palpable sense of excitement now that my decision to wait for the 1080P sets to arrive seems to be getting vindicated!!!

Even if the xx68/xx78 series are not noticably and appreciably better than the HLR xx67 series, the wait would still be worth it cos one could always get the HLR xx67 series knowing that they are still better than the 2004 sets.

Originally posted by donb1948
I
1. Enversions approach to avoiding internal processing seems logical to me. It might even be simpler than stated since both the iScan HD+ & Algolith Dragonfly both have RGB analog outputs (VGA HD-15 on the former and VGA-QXGA on the latter.) Are there any technical reasons why this might not work? Fundamentally, are there any reasons for not wanting to use the Sammy VGA input IF both VGA and HDMI inputs capable of 1080p @ 60hz were available. Are there any compromises involved with the VGA input relative to the hypothetical 1080p HDMI input?
2. Any comments on expected impact on PQ using the VGA input. One of Samsung's selling points for their DLP(tm) TV is the totally digital signal path to the display. Will there be extra DA/AD conversions involved using the VGA input?



1. The scaler may or may not output full resolution on the RGB output if the input is HDCP digital. I'm pretty sure it violates the HDCP license to simply decode the signal and output it as analog. So your scaler may not pass a signal from a HD-DVD/Blue Ray player to the RGB output, and HD-DVD/Blue Ray are unlikely to have full resolution analog outputs at all. This is a real shame, as any future HD prerecorded material will have to be sent as 1080i, and unless the set does proper 3:2 pulldown on 1080i, we're stuck with upscaled 540p.

2. The VGA input will interrupt a full digital path. Depending on the quality of the ADCs in the Samsung, and the DACs in your source, the difference may or may not be visible.

FWIW, My local dealer will start seeing 67 and 77 models trickle in beginning tomorrow. I'm hardly in a big city, so if my area is even starting to see these, the rest of you that are interested in the 2005 720p Sammy's should start looking out.

In regards to Post 3113:

1. Enversions approach to avoiding internal processing seems logical to me. It might even be simpler than stated since both the iScan HD+ & Algolith Dragonfly both have RGB analog outputs (VGA HD-15 on the former and VGA-QXGA on the latter.) Are there any technical reasons why this might not work? Fundamentally, are there any reasons for not wanting to use the Sammy VGA input IF both VGA and HDMI inputs capable of 1080p @ 60hz were available. Are there any compromises involved with the VGA input relative to the hypothetical 1080p HDMI input?

It won't work if you use a DVI source because of HDCP. If you input DVI with HDCP, you have to output DVI with HDCP. This is unfortunate, HDCP is crap, but that's what we get from heavily paid lobbyists and lots of money from Hollywood and the Networks. If the DVI input is not HDCP, then yes, you can output the signal on the HD-15 analog output. If HDMI was capable of 1080p on the Sammy, you would want to go that route as it would not need the A/D conversion and would also save you some money on the DVI to HD-15 converter. There are really no compromises in using VGA instead of 1080p HDMI, the PQ will not be noticable.

2. Any comments on expected impact on PQ using the VGA input. One of Samsung's selling points for their DLP(tm) TV is the totally digital signal path to the display. Will there be extra DA/AD conversions involved using the VGA input?

A/D has been around for so long and gotten so good that there will not be any noticable difference in using the VGA input on the Sammy if they use a decent enough A/D chip, which I can't imagine they wouldn't as they are so cheap these days.

Best Regards,
Adam

gpshumway,

Thanks. Some time ago, I'd read about the issue of HDCP compliant devices not being able to legally have both analog and digital outputs active at the same time - thanks for the reminder.

Overall, nothing has change - hopes are no higher or lower. It's still a matter of waiting to see what looks good.

PS. If anyone might be wondering why I'm so interested in getting a 1080p signal unscathed into the Sammy, check out this article on the Dragonfly/Mosquito combination (start at Post #61) and what it can do to a 480i signal: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5577556#post5577556

PPS. The old barb "If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it" definitely applies.

In Edit: Adam... Posted the above before seeing your response. Thanks for the explanations and comments. I'll be paying more attension to VGA in the future.

I just saw the 6167w on Crutchfield.com. The quote for the DMD chip says; "Deep inside this set is one of Texas Instruments' latest DLP image chips"
In the specs, contrast ratio is 2500:1. That can't have a HD3, right? It must be new...

I am hoping for some expert help here. I lurked on this forum for 5 months, but pulled the trigger on a 5674 from Costco with the idea that I could return it in a month if the xx67 looked better...

However, I am trying to get a good picture to see, and can't figure out which is the best way to connect. I tried the xx74 forum, but not enough activity there, so I am hoping someone here knows the answers.

Have Comcast cable with the Mot 8400 DVR STB. Only has 1 coax in, no coax out. 1 set of audio out the back, with S Vid, Component, and DVI for video. Comcast here in MA has analog cables 1-200, digital cable 200+, and HD 800+.

I was told pq for analog cable is best if you feed coax direct to Sammy. This looks to be true. The problem then is, how do I get cable signal to STB. If I take coax out of sammy and into STB, neither DVI nor Componet will give a picture. get a message saying, 'this channel should be available shortly' but never is.

If I put cable direct to STB, which output is better to use, Component, or DVI? I only have 1 audio output, so I can't use both.

Someone else suggested that I split the cable, and put one feed direct to TV, and the other to STB, but then I reduce signal, so I figure that kills quality, or am I wrong about that.

Really would appreciate any advice on how others have hooked up their STB to Sammy. Thanks!

Originally posted by UCSB
We have heard virtually nothing about this model (HLR5087W). If you liked the HLPxx85W models, then this would be worth a look. It should be easy to compare a HLPxx85W model to the new HLR5067W and form your own conclusions. If you find the HLR5087W anywhere and can confirm HD2+ pixel pattern, please let us know. I'd like to close out that open issue.

I am due to recieve a 5087 as a replacement for my defective 5085 on the 21st. I was hoping there would be more info on the 5087 prior to it's arrival (I really like the picture on the 5085) but I would imagine no matter what, it's going to be a really impressive set.

Originally posted by Scurbs16
I just saw the 6167w on Crutchfield.com. The quote for the DMD chip says; "Deep inside this set is one of Texas Instruments' latest DLP image chips"
In the specs, contrast ratio is 2500:1. That can't have a HD3, right? It must be new...

The HD3 had a CR of 1500 or 2000 if I remember correctly. The HD2+ had a CR of 2500.

Based on published data from Samsung

Model CR Chip
HLPxx63 1500 HD3
HLPxx74 2000 HD2+
HLPxx85 2500 HD2+ better light engine

HLRxx66/67 up to 2500 HD4
HLRxx77 2000 HD2+
HLRxx87 no info yet ???

HLRxx68/78 up to 10000 xHD4



The usual disclaimers!

I posted the above several pages back.

Originally posted by jbinbi
I am hoping for some expert help here. I lurked on this forum for 5 months, but pulled the trigger on a 5674 from Costco with the idea that I could return it in a month if the xx67 looked better...

However, I am trying to get a good picture to see, and can't figure out which is the best way to connect. I tried the xx74 forum, but not enough activity there, so I am hoping someone here knows the answers.

Have Comcast cable with the Mot 8400 DVR STB. Only has 1 coax in, no coax out. 1 set of audio out the back, with S Vid, Component, and DVI for video. Comcast here in MA has analog cables 1-200, digital cable 200+, and HD 800+.

I was told pq for analog cable is best if you feed coax direct to Sammy. This looks to be true. The problem then is, how do I get cable signal to STB. If I take coax out of sammy and into STB, neither DVI nor Componet will give a picture. get a message saying, 'this channel should be available shortly' but never is.

If I put cable direct to STB, which output is better to use, Component, or DVI? I only have 1 audio output, so I can't use both.

Someone else suggested that I split the cable, and put one feed direct to TV, and the other to STB, but then I reduce signal, so I figure that kills quality, or am I wrong about that.

Really would appreciate any advice on how others have hooked up their STB to Sammy. Thanks!

Split the cable signal and send one feed to your TV and the other to your Motorola 6412 HD DVR. Then connect the DVR to your TV via the DVI or component input. If you are going to get a up-converting DVD player then use component for the Motorola DVR.

After you have reconnected everything. Turn on the TV and check channel 2 or whatever is the lowest channel you get. If the signal is going to degrade it will start with the lowest channels and work its way up. If channel 2 still looks good, which is what I would expect, then don't worry about the cable split.

Well, I would like to thank everyone for the good info here. I was finlly able to view the HLR 4667 today at BB. The room was full of DLP and other projection TV's. The 4667 certainly stood out. Not "soft, and not too sharp...just right. Colors were vivid...what else can I say.

I then went to my local TV place and got my HLR 4667 for $2200, no delivery and a 5 year extended service deal (including bulb replacement) for $399.

The TV come Monday and I just can not wait!

I really thank this board for all of the usefull info...thanks!

Originally posted by UCSB
Since you live in Castro Valley, you could just drive over the Magnolia HiFi in San Ramon and take a look at the Qualia 006 and the Samsung 5067. Took a look at these 2 models tonight. Just like you said, UCSB, they were side by side. Saw TiVo HD source material, 720p and 1080i. BIGGG difference. I'm really glad I saw that comparison, as I now have no doubt it's worth the wait for the 6168. OK, here's some news that blew me away. The 6168 is expected in June (not June/July, but June), and the price is $3,999!! The salesman told me I'd have to pay in full up front for the order. He also said the price could go up anytime, but if I ordered while at $3,999, that would be my locked price even if there was an increase. I'm trying to contact my installer, as his business plan requires that he obtains all the hardware. Salesman said price could change literally any time.

EDIT: Salesman also said purchase must be made in person.

Dude,

all I have to say is that if you were given an offer for a 61" at that price, the 56" should definitely be about $300-$500 cheaper (at least), and I can only wonder what the 5078 would be based on the same scale... SWEET!

Originally posted by Ronnie 1.8
Took a look at these 2 models tonight. Just like you said, UCSB, they were side by side. Saw TiVo HD source material, 720p and 1080i. BIGGG difference. I'm really glad I saw that comparison, as I now have no doubt it's worth the wait for the 6168. OK, here's some news that blew me away. The 6168 is expected in June (not June/July, but June), and the price is $3,999!! The salesman told me I'd have to pay in full up front for the order. He also said the price could go up anytime, but if I ordered while at $3,999, that would be my locked price even if there was an increase. I'm trying to contact my installer, as his business plan requires that he obtains all the hardware. Salesman said price could change literally any time.

EDIT: Salesman also said purchase must be made in person.

I knew you would have your answer by the time you left the store!!! But, outside of the resolution, the picture (color, contrast, blacks, etc.) on the HLR5067W was really good ... right? I thought it had as much punch as the Qualia 006.

Originally posted by UCSB
I knew you would have your answer by the time you left the store!!! But, outside of the resolution, the picture (color, contrast, blacks, etc.) on the HLR5067W was really good ... right? I thought it had as much punch as the Qualia 006. Absolutely! Really good picture. In fact, I was so focused on it, that I viewed it for about 2 minutes before continuing to the right and seeing the Sony. Until I looked at the Sony, I was very very impressed. Still am, but after seeing the Sony at 1080p... What do you think about the $4,000 price on the 6168? Already $800 less than MSRP and it's not even out yet.

Originally posted by Ronnie 1.8
Absolutely! Really good picture. In fact, I was so focused on it, that I viewed it for about 2 minutes before continuing to the right and seeing the Sony. Until I looked at the Sony, I was very very impressed. Still am, but after seeing the Sony at 1080p... What do you think about the $4,000 price on the 6168? Already $800 less than MSRP and it's not even out yet.

When I was over there earlier in the week, the 68 series was not even in the computer. Let alone priced. I would go over and reserve one. Before too many people figure out what 1080p is all about. You would probably be one of the first to receive your set. You could always cancel your order later, if something better came up.

The logic $800 less than MSRP and not out yet ... ie. implying prices are going to drop further may happen. But, I really doubt it. These sets are going to be really popular. I may be crazy, but I think supply could be an issue and rising prices.

Let me add that if people react to these sets like you and I have, demand could be strong enough to bring prices up to MSRP. I know that sounds crazy, but truthfully, after seeing the resolution difference on the 1080p set how long did it take you to make your decision to go 1080p? I'll confess it took me 10 seconds and then another 20 seconds to think through what I was seeing. Now when I am watching my 720p set, I'm always wondering what that would look like in 1080p. EVEN WORST, the creative work on most of the HD material was done at 1080i ... so the producer was making judgements about how clear something will look. This becomes apparent after seeing 1080p.

DVI is superior to VGA in every sense, PLUS it's a digital connection....why oh why are we stuck with god damned VGA for our PC's?

Someone please tell me :(

- D

Originally posted by Daphoid
DVI is superior to VGA in every sense, PLUS it's a digital connection....why oh why are we stuck with god damned VGA for our PC's?

Someone please tell me :(

- D

D ... I'm pretty sure that we will get our computers working over the HDMI inputs. I'd say I'm 99% sure.

Originally posted by UCSB
When I was over there earlier in the week, the 68 series was not even in the computer. Let alone priced. I would go over and reserve one. Before too many people figure out what 1080p is all about. You would probably be one of the first to receive your set. You could always cancel your order later, if something better came up.

The logic $800 less than MSRP and not out yet ... ie. implying prices are going to drop further may happen. But, I really doubt it. These sets are going to be really popular. I may be crazy, but I think supply could be an issue and rising prices. Whoops - I didn't mean to imply that I believe prices are going to drop further. My thoughts were (and are) that I was shocked the set was already $800 below MSRP. Why would they come right out of the gate so far below MSRP? Surely there is already enough of an interest to drive sales at MSRP. If $4K is the researched price point to drive sales, why wasn't the MSRP set to $4K? (I'm not asking these questions of you, UCSB, rather to us all in general). Well, the acronym does stand for 'manufacturers suggested retail price' - it is a suggestion. I put a call in to my installer, as I really don't want to sit on that price another 24 hours (not even 12) - I want to order mine as soon as Magnolia opens tomorrow. I don't know if I can receive a full reimbursement should I choose to cancel. I'll call tomorrow when they open, and if so, I'll go down and purchase mine.

Originally posted by UCSB
Let me add that if people react to these sets like you and I have, demand could be strong enough to bring prices up to MSRP. I know that sounds crazy, but truthfully, after seeing the resolution difference on the 1080p set how long did it take you to make your decision to go 1080p? I'll confess it took me 10 seconds and then another 20 seconds to think through what I was seeing. Totally agree about interest driving prices to MSRP. As I said in my immediately prior response, I don't have enough information to understand why Magnolia isn't selling them at MSRP NOW. Re: comparing the Samsung 5067 and Sony Qualia - when they were both given the same source (TiVo HD 1080i), I first looked at the Samsung, and IMMEDIATELY upon glancing over and seeing the image on the Sony, I mean in under 1.0 seconds, I thought WOW!!! The difference wasn't subtle - it was as obvious as seeing one TV in color and the other in B&W.

Also, that Sony Qualia was sitting on the exact formation of the Salamander semi-custom stand I intend on ordering. Very very sweet. The width of the Sony was just about the same as the stand (66"), so I think the 57" width of the 6168 will have a slightly better visual balance. I like the stand wider than the set - balanced, kind of like a pyramid.

Originally posted by Ronnie 1.8
Totally agree about interest driving prices to MSRP. As I said in my immediately prior response, I don't have enough information to understand why Magnolia isn't selling them at MSRP NOW. Re: comparing the Samsung 5067 and Sony Qualia - when they were both given the same source (TiVo HD 1080i), I first looked at the Samsung, and IMMEDIATELY upon glancing over and seeing the image on the Sony, I mean in under 1.0 seconds, I thought WOW!!! The difference wasn't subtle - it was as obvious as seeing one TV in color and the other in B&W.

I am also interested in the 6168. No offense but you are comparing the samsung 720P to the $13000 Qualia which has a chip that produces the full 1920X1080 resolution. The Samsung will be nice I'm sure but I would not go assuming you will see as much difference since the chip the Samsung uses is not a true 1080p chip. I guess we will find out shortly. As far as pricing goes the MSRP might be $4800 but I am willing to bet the sticker price will be around $4500. Being offered the set for $4000 you are basically getting 10% off which is pretty easy to do any time you walk into a electronics store. I am fairly confident if I decide to go with the 6168 that I will be able to obtain 20% off the list price of $4500. I think I will wait it out to see what the 1080P JVC looks like.

Originally posted by Daphoid
DVI is superior to VGA in every sense, PLUS it's a digital connection....why oh why are we stuck with god damned VGA for our PC's?

Someone please tell me :(


My PC has a DVI output port, a VGA output port, a component video output port, S-video and composite.

And the DVI port can be used with a DVI to HDMI conversion cable.

So who's "stuck" with anything? :confused:

The fact is that VGA looks amazing on my TV. No "dot crawl." Just a perfect 1:1 pixel mapping with great color. And on my Mitsu DLP, the VGA port bypasses all of the sharpness filters. So I haven't even bothered to try HDMI (which doesn't bypass the filters).

Originally posted by Shape
The fact is that VGA looks amazing on my TV. No "dot crawl." Just a perfect 1:1 pixel mapping with great color. And on my Mitsu DLP, the VGA port bypasses all of the sharpness filters. So I haven't even bothered to try HDMI (which doesn't bypass the filters).

Shape..

Assuming you play dvd's, do you run them through your computer or do you have a standalone dvd player. If you have a standalone dvd player, do you run that also through the VGA port of your Mits or do you use a digital input?

I play all DVDs through Media Center on my PC, now. I used to use a DVD player on the component inputs, which looked really good. But they look better when they are scaled by my 6600GT video card.

The TV has a built in scaler, too, obviously. But the computer seems to do a slightly better job.

I have never used the HDMI port on my TV.

jkv: I was in Tweeters yesterday and asked about the 6168 and was quoted $4500. Interesting!

They said it would probably be a "special order" since the salesman thought that they would only carry, in the store, the 78 series.

Good Day,

I have an order in to get the 6168 as soon as it comes in, my distributor is quoting a list price of 4499.

Anybody have a firm idea on delivery?

Originally posted by John in LB
I have an order in to get the 6168 as soon as it comes in, my distributor is quoting a list price of 4499.

Anybody have a firm idea on delivery? I don't think it's been set. As I said above, as of yesterday, Magnolia Audio Video in San Ramon, CA said, "June", but no date in June.

Originally posted by UCSB
Let me add that if people react to these sets like you and I have, demand could be strong enough to bring prices up to MSRP. I know that sounds crazy, but truthfully, after seeing the resolution difference on the 1080p set how long did it take you to make your decision to go 1080p?

And talk like this could make it a self-fulfilling prophecy! :)

I think there MAY be a short term reaction but as more 1080p sets from other manufacturers become available, pricing will drop.

I notice vanns.com has the 6178 and the 5688 up for pre-orders. I would hope/expect the other sizes and variants to come forth before too long.

I note that both TV's are listed with 5000:1 Contrast ratio. Not bad! I figured 10,000:1 was probably unrealistic.

I note that HP (Hewlett-Packard) has their 1080p DLP's (to arrive 3Q) listed at 8,500:1 contrast ratio. They'll release a 58" and 65".

Originally posted by Ronnie 1.8
I note that HP (Hewlett-Packard) has their 1080p DLP's (to arrive 3Q) listed at 8,500:1 contrast ratio. They'll release a 58" and 65".

I'll say the same thing I said about the supposed 10,000:1 that we thought these Sammys might have:

I'll believe it when I see it. ;)

I thought the press release said "up to a 10000:1 CR".

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
I notice vanns.com has the 6178 and the 5688 up for pre-orders. I would hope/expect the other sizes and variants to come forth before too long.

The picture of the 6178 on the Vanns site looks like it has a 'matt' black border, like on the present xx63 sets, not the shiny, gloss black that we've seen so far. I wonder if this could really be the case--would be a great improvement IMO. Maybe Samsung heard our many complaints about 'that shiny black border'!

It appears to me that Vanns 6178 photo is not of the actual set: there appears to be no stablization base on it (although the rest of the set looks like the pictures appearing in post #1).

I saw the 67 today at my local best buy, It was set up next to a sony and a 5085. The 85 was my favorite PQ for the prior generation sets. They were all showing an HD loop. I would have to say I was pretty impressed. To my eyes, the blacks looked better on the 67. The colors looked more vibrant, and the difference in sharpness between the two wasn't apparent to me.

They had the 63 setup a few ailes down, and I kept running back and forth to remind myself what I liked less about the softer picture(I always preferred the H2+ to the H3). The softer picture was always noticeable on the 63, but on the 67 I just wasn't seeing it any more. I always have to see these sets in different stores and with different sources before I can draw a conclusion, but I really did like what I saw so far. I am still anxiously awaiting the 68 sets too.

A quesion for the other people who have seen the 67 and who liked the H2+ more than the H3. Do you think that the sharpness has improved in this set over the previous wobulated chips? I can always compare better myself watching a familiar movie rather than an HD loop, but I don't quite have the skill of some of the members here.

I noticed that Vann's listed having one Samsung HL-R 6168. Don't know, it could be a misprint.

What has been the board's experience with this e-tailer?

Originally posted by wtr1
I noticed that Vann's listed having one Samsung HL-R 6168. Don't know, it could be a misprint.

What has been the board's experience with this e-tailer?

Awesome! Call them on the phone for the best service.

Q of BanditZ: I guess we won't know until we see them, but are the Samsung DLPs and the Mitsubishi DLPs going to be very different? Any features that make a big difference or will it just be--who has the better looking picture?

Originally posted by Artwood
Q of BanditZ: I guess we won't know until we see them, but are the Samsung DLPs and the Mitsubishi DLPs going to be very different? Any features that make a big difference or will it just be--who has the better looking picture?

I'm still waiting to find that out myself. The way it has been is that one brand tends to favor certain features over the other and more or less the same sort of PQ.

Originally posted by jkv4
I am also interested in the 6168. No offense but you are comparing the samsung 720P to the $13000 Qualia which has a chip that produces the full 1920X1080 resolution. The Samsung will be nice I'm sure but I would not go assuming you will see as much difference since the chip the Samsung uses is not a true 1080p chip. I guess we will find out shortly. As far as pricing goes the MSRP might be $4800 but I am willing to bet the sticker price will be around $4500. Being offered the set for $4000 you are basically getting 10% off which is pretty easy to do any time you walk into a electronics store. I am fairly confident if I decide to go with the 6168 that I will be able to obtain 20% off the list price of $4500. I think I will wait it out to see what the 1080P JVC looks like.


Very good point. The JVC 1080P's, unlike the Samsungs, will have a true 1080P chip. JVC 1080P's had the best PQ discounting the Qualias at the CES in January. The Samsung 1080P's PQ was clearly better than their 2005 720P's, pretty nice, though not as nice as the JVC's.

Are you talking about the 68/78 series not being true 1080p? I thought its either 1080p or its not... I didn't think you could "kinda" have 1080p.

I also saw a 5667 at Best Buy today. It seemed like a definite improvement over the 63 (which was right next to it), deeper blacks, more realistic color, and it did seem more clear than the 63 without the almost extreme sharpness of the 85. One thing I didn't get was that I could not make out the detail on the 67 as easily as on the 63, but I think the 63 brightness was turned up. The 67 picture mode was set to Dynamic. Overall, I thought it looked great, but went down the street and saw the Qualia, so I think I will wait to see a Samsung 1080p 68 before I buy anything.

Oops, meant to say I couldn't make out detail in the shadows of the 67 as easily, but it didn't seem a fair test.

Originally posted by UCSB:
>Since you live in Castro Valley, you could just drive over the Magnolia HiFi in San Ramon and take a look at the Qualia 006 and the Samsung 5067.

Thanks UCSB, I checked them out today and appreciate you posting this information. It was neat to see the Qualia in person, and I am looking forward to the 1080P Samsung coming out so I can do a side by side in a month or so.

Ronnie 1.8, thanks for the tip. I went to the Magnolia in Santa Clara and confirmed the 6168 listing. The strange thing is that the 5668 was listed at $100 higher (and the 5688 even higher). The sales guy thought it was because the 5668 was a thin bezel design but I think we all know that the thin bezel design is the *78. Looks like there may be some small screwup somewhere. Anyway, he expected a July delivery for the 6168 but they should have more accurate dates in the middle of next week.

I was looking at the 67 today at Tweeter. The SDE seemed very noticeable to me at 8-9'. Agree, disagree? What is the expectation for SDE getting lessened in the 68?

Any comment on the new Xbox 360 specs? It seems like the 68 will be a great match to the new Xbox.

Originally posted by swankdaddy7
I was looking at the 67 today at Tweeter. The SDE seemed very noticeable to me at 8-9'. Agree, disagree? What is the expectation for SDE getting lessened in the 68?

Which Tweeter did you go to? Is it the one on rt. 38 between the Cherry Hill mall and Moorestown mall? I would really like to see this new models and compare it to the Sony Kd-34xbr960, which is my alternate choice if the Samsung 720p or 1080p DLP is not equal to or better than the Sony PQ.

Originally posted by swankdaddy7
I was looking at the 67 today at Tweeter. The SDE seemed very noticeable to me at 8-9'. Agree, disagree? What is the expectation for SDE getting lessened in the 68?

Any comment on the new Xbox 360 specs? It seems like the 68 will be a great match to the new Xbox.

Any of the new 2005 DLP's should be a good match, especially considering Samsung and MS have an alliance in regards to the 360.

Which Tweeter did you go to? Is it the one on rt. 38 between the Cherry Hill mall and Moorestown mall? I would really like to see this new models and compare it to the Sony Kd-34xbr960, which is my alternate choice if the Samsung 720p or 1080p DLP is not equal to or better than the Sony PQ.

I was actually at the Tweeter near the Deptford Mall (will visit the other one also probably). They told me they expected the 78 in mid-June. And they offer 20 months no interest. Can you expect to haggle on price and get the no interest??

I'm targeting the 6168 or 6178 with a 8-9' viewing distance. Anyone have opinions if I should be worried about Screen Door Effect (does it vary a lot from person to person)? I saw more SDE than I expected on some of the models (like the 67) at Tweeter.

Great forum, thanks for all the help.

Originally posted by swankdaddy7
I'm targeting the 6168 or 6178 with a 8-9' viewing distance. Anyone have opinions if I should be worried about Screen Door Effect (does it vary a lot from person to person)? I saw more SDE than I expected on some of the models (like the 67) at Tweeter.

I think you should see ZERO SDE with the 61" 1080p sets at 8 to 9 ft.

Originally posted by millerwill
I think you should see ZERO SDE with the 61" 1080p sets at 8 to 9 ft.

That's good news because that's basically the situation I'm looking at. I'm eyeing that 6178 at Vanns right now. I'm liking that price...

Originally posted by swankdaddy7
I'm targeting the 6168 or 6178 with a 8-9' viewing distance. I'll be buying the 6178 (had planned on the 6168 until yesterday, when the wife-approval factor changed it to a 6178), also at 8'. Should be awesome.

Originally posted by swankdaddy7
I was looking at the 67 today at Tweeter. The SDE seemed very noticeable to me at 8-9'. Agree, disagree? What is the expectation for SDE getting lessened in the 68?

I'm not sure what you were seeing, but to see SDE on either the HLP or HLRxx67 seems just short of impossible. Both of these sets use wobulation where portions of each pixel overlap, thus no SDE. Screen door effect (SDE) is basically being able to see each individual pixel as if you were looking at an image through a screen door (more or less like having a line around each pixel).

I thought SDE was mainly an LCD TV issue. Am I missing something? WolfpackRon.

Originally posted by Ronnie 1.8
I'll be buying the 6178 (had planned on the 6168 until yesterday, when the wife-approval factor changed it to a 6178), also at 8'. Should be awesome.

Interesting. I first thought I liked the xx68 'floating screen' design best, but my wife also prefers the xx78 form. And since I'm wanting to as BIG as possible, I am waiting to see the 7178; will compare it side by side to the Mits 73727 (supposedly out in Sept) and see which I think is best. Only downside is that I have to wait for the Mits to come out!

JUST SAW POSTING FOR THE SAMMY HLR6768W FOR $[MSRP ONLY] AND THE HLR6168 FOR $[Msrp Only]ON THE [Where to buy deleted] SITE TODAY. PRICE SEEM TO BE DROPING EVERYDAY:)

Welcome to the forum belasis and thanks for the information.

Now please stop yelling at us... ;)

I just saw the HLR 50, 56, & 61" models. I didn't notice any screen door effect. The TV's looked really good, even though they were on a 480p signal (50"), and CC in store loop (56" & 61") The 56" was close enough to a HLP 63 series to compare, and I noticed a difference ( how much is subjective). No stores near me have the 50" for sale yet though:confused:

Originally posted by schaffer970
I'm not sure what you were seeing, but to see SDE on either the HLP or HLRxx67 seems just short of impossible. Both of these sets use wobulation where portions of each pixel overlap, thus no SDE. Screen door effect (SDE) is basically being able to see each individual pixel as if you were looking at an image through a screen door (more or less like having a line around each pixel).

I suppose there's a chance it wasn't the 67 (but I certainly thought it was). It definitely was an effect of fine black grid (screen door) more noticeable at times than others. Maybe it was a model without wobulation? I'll re-confirm. So you are also saying the you expect no SDE on the 68 because it has wobulation?
Thanks.

I have been following this thread for a long time and have been excited to actually evaluate the 67 series in person. I even held off buying the 74 series based on everyone's comments. Maybe I built up my expectations that this was going to be THE tv, but I can say that it did not live up to my expectation of perfection.

I saw 67 series yesterday at [Delaer name removed] in MN. They had just put out the 42, 46, 50 inch on display a few hours earlier. They had the 46 on sale for ${MSRP Only]

There were two major problems I saw. I am not an expert, so I am not sure what to call the problems, so I will try and describe it. The signal was an HD discovery and the program was about Carnival in St. Thomas that was being fed to all tv's. Viewing distances was about 8 feet.


Problem #1:
When the camera was focused on a near object, objects in the background seemed hazy or noisy, it was more than just not being in focus because you could tell the image or pixals were moving around quickly. It seemed to be more noticeable when you concentrated on a specific point in the background for a few seconds.

Problem #2:
On two ocassions when some colorful dancers were moving very quickly, the image became very pixilated and the fast moving areas were turned to medium sized square blocks for about 2-3 seconds.

I was not able to see if this looked the same on DVD's, since they were having problems the the player connected to the 46 inch.

The good points on the set, I could not see any rainbows, stationary or slow moving images looked really good, I didnt notice lyp synch issues. Overall, the set did look better than the old 5063 they also still had on display, but not THAT much better. If I wouldnt have seen the two issues I probably would have bought yesterday. Now, I am going to have to wait for the 68/78 series to see if the wobulated 1080 will live up to my expectations.

The rep at Ultimate said they computer showed they had sets on order, but Samsung did not provide them a delivery date yet.

Thanks again to everyone for sharing their knowledge. Any ideas what to call these two problems?

For my dedicated HT room I am building I am waiting for the Qualia to come down in price. I saw it last month in Las Vegas and was BLOWN away.

Nepenthe

Originally posted by Nepenthe
The signal was an HD discovery and the program was about Carnival in St. Thomas that was being fed to all tv's. Viewing distances was about 8 feet.


Problem #1:
When the camera was focused on a near object, objects in the background seemed hazy or noisy, it was more than just not being in focus because you could tell the image or pixals were moving around quickly. It seemed to be more noticeable when you concentrated on a specific point in the background for a few seconds.

Possibly the way the show itself was shot. The camera work?



Problem #2:
On two ocassions when some colorful dancers were moving very quickly, the image became very pixilated and the fast moving areas were turned to medium sized square blocks for about 2-3 seconds.

A lot of these stores tend to split ONE signal amongst many TV's. I've seen it split across 12-20 TV's at a time! I trust this is how it's done at UE as well? That may figure into this equation...

Nepenthe ... The breakup in the picture was not caused by the TV, but was in the signal feeding the TV. It is just something that happens on HD broadcasts. The blurred background in the movie scene was how the camera recorded the scene when the movie was being produced. When a camera focuses on a near object, objects in the background may or may not be in focus depending on the aperture of the camera. This is called depth of field. Both of these issues do not have anything to do with the TV. The dancing dots ... I'm not as clear on this one. If you are close to a DLP set and focusing on the screen (say 3 feet), you will see something that looks like video noise. This might or might not be real. The best way to understand that issue is to connect up a DVD player to the TV via the HDMI input and see if it goes away. If it does, it was just video noise entering the signal because of how the store was setup and won't happen at home. If they are still there than it is just the low level projection effect.

One word of warning ... expecting perfection from the HDTV's might be expecting a little to much. The sets this year are the best I've seen, but the changes each year are evolutionary (with the step up to 1080p from 720p being an exception) and a new set will generally look a little better than last years set. These changes add up though.

Anyone viewed new Sammy's in the DFW area? If so where? I will be visiting in the next week. My area of NW FL is fairly barren on new technology.

Originally posted by AkaStp
Were the fine black lines of the grid horizontal+vertical or diagonal (forming a diamond pattern)? Did they appear only during motion/camera movement? If so, I've seen that same effect when looking close to the screen on the HLPxx63s and it becomes more noticeable as the screen size increases. I don't think its SDE per-se but rather some kind of motion artifact that is more coarse than regular SDE and can be seen from further back.

They were horizontal and vertical. I was approx 8-10' away. I think they may have only been when there was camera movement (but I don't recall 100%). I didn't look at it from 1-5' away for comparison. If it is a separate "motion artifact", I wonder if it will really bother me since I watch a lot of sports. I can't wait to see the 68/78's to see if I notice a difference. Any additional insights are valued.

On the other topic, they told me they split the signal and then boost it. I wonder what the net effect is of that generally?

Originally posted by AkaStp
What you saw may be some kind of bi-product of a poor feed.

If they're doing the usual retailer routine and splitting one signal about a dozen ways or so, I'd about count on this. These new sets really should be improved in just about every way from their predecessors.

I went to my local Sound Advice and the computer said that they had 30 HL-R5668's on order for arival in June. But..the computer also had the chip listed for this unit as the xHD3. I thought this was not the case for this model, but after 160 pages of stuff, I could have gotten confused in the last 4000 hours it takes to read all of this. :-)

It seems to me with the low prices of the 50 and the 52 inch models from Samsung and Mitsubishi and with the competition between the two that either Sony's SXRD and JVC's D'ILA will have to come down in price or be relegated to boutique land!

Originally posted by Artwood
It seems to me with the low prices of the 50 and the 52 inch models from Samsung and Mitsubishi and with the competition between the two that either Sony's SXRD and JVC's D'ILA will have to come down in price

Won't happen.

...or be relegated to boutique land!

You figure that out all by yourself?

Originally posted by Nepenthe
I have been following this thread for a long time and have been excited to actually evaluate the 67 series in person. I even held off buying the 74 series based on everyone's comments. Maybe I built up my expectations that this was going to be THE TV, but I can say that it did not live up to my expectation of perfection.

I saw 67 series yesterday at Ultimate Electronics in MN. They had just put out the 42, 46, 50 inch on display a few hours earlier. They had the 46 on sale for $XXX There were two major problems I saw. I am not an expert, so I am not sure what to call the problems, so I will try and describe it. The signal was an HD discovery and the program was about Carnival in St. Thomas that was being fed to all TV's. Viewing distances was about 8 feet.
...
Nepenthe

OK. I was at the Magnolia in Sacto yesterday and came across the same program. They did not have the Sony Qualia, which I wanted to see, but they did have about every other DLP including HLP's and HLRs (5067). What I saw was a bit different but it was enough to question why I would want any TV I saw, even though similar sets (5674 for example) looked great to me before.

Every display either had the fuzzy look (probably the source) but was also severely stair stepped. Not the same sort of blocky pixel structure you get with source that is not compressed or uncompressed properly. More like a image that had bad resolution. I was only 4-5 feet away but have been this close to the sets before and did not notice this effect. It makes me question that same source as the problem.

For what its worth the HLR5067 looked the best of the bunch but was not passable in my opinion. I definitely decided that it was going to have to be a 1080P for me, no matter what.

Originally posted by ccouper
OK. I was at the Magnolia in Sacto yesterday and came across the same program. They did not have the Sony Qualia, which I wanted to see, but they did have about every other DLP including HLP's and HLRs (5067). What I saw was a bit different but it was enough to question why I would want any TV I saw, even though similar sets (5674 for example) looked great to me before.

Every display either had the fuzzy look (probably the source) but was also severely stair stepped. Not the same sort of blocky pixel structure you get with source that is not compressed or uncompressed properly. More like a image that had bad resolution. I was only 4-5 feet away but have been this close to the sets before and did not notice this effect. It makes me question that same source as the problem.

For what its worth the HLR5067 looked the best of the bunch but was not passable in my opinion. I definitely decided that it was going to have to be a 1080P for me, no matter what.

If the PQ does not look right in the store, it is worth asking a few questions. Especially at a store like Magnolia with a knowledgeable sales staff. Often they will just make a comment like ... "it's a bad DVR feed would you like to see a direct signal." I go to the same stores and I know what these set are supposed to look like ... so when something is not right, I will ask. I typically get an immedate explanation. I can remember one football game that was playing once. It didn't look that good to me and so I asked what was up. They said, we know it is a poor quality broadcast and we are playing it off the DVR, but we wanted to see the game do you want us to turn it off and put something else on.

Originally posted by balasis
JUST SAW POSTING FOR THE SAMMY HLR6768W FOR $4,899 AND THE HLR6168 FOR $3,699 ON THE PCRICHARD.COM SITE TODAY. PRICE SEEM TO BE DROPING EVERYDAY:)

I just checked this out. Still the same price for the 6168. That is seriously low, so low that I would definitely think about getting one instead of the 5078.

Originally posted by Clorox
I just checked this out. Still the same price for the 6168. That is seriously low, so low that I would definitely think about getting one instead of the 5078.

Something doesn't smell right on those prices. The HLR5668W is actually $100 more expensive than the HLR6168W on the same page. I would also be all over the 6168 at that price point.

jpe

Originally posted by blaven2
I am not sure if this is the correct place for this question, but I think the most knowledgeable people on this happen to be in this forum.

I returned a Mits 52725 2 months ago due to the notorious bright spot. I now have a credit for about $4000. So, I have to buy something through the same store.

I have been following this forum and drooling at the prospects of 1080p DLPs. I went to the store ini question today, and by a private sale could get a 50" Panasonic plasma (TH-50PX50U) for $4500.

This is essentially the same price as the Sammy 5668. The price is only available for the next week, and again, I must buy through this store due to my credit.

For those who may have seen both sets, what should I go with...should I wait on the Sammy's...if I end up not liking it, I lose the private Tweeter sale price on the Panasonic and will probably pay $500 more. I had never considered a plasma, but as the prices fall, it is appealing.

Thanks for the help...this forum has been incredibly informative

Here is what I would do ... call around and see if you can locate a Qualia 006. If you can, go down and look at it. This will give you a good idea of what to expect with 1080p. Then go back and look at the plasma. If you are still open to the reduced resolution and screen size, then consider the plasma. Hint ... you probably won't be.

Originally posted by UCSB
Here is what I would do ... call around and see if you can locate a Qualia 006.

I've asked this question over in the Qualia Owners thread with no luck, so I might as well try here:

Does anyone know of a B&M in the lower peninsula of Michigan that has a Qualia 006 on display?

Posted yesterday by Neil of TVA in the Powerbuy thread!

"Also, for those of you interested, we should have pricing up for the 1080p models in the next 48-72 hours."




Sorry if this is a repost...

Not quite sure what it all means, but this is part of the guts of what makes a DLP work.

Altera FPGAs and HardCopy Structured ASICs Enable Texas Instruments to Deliver Industry-Leading Display Features

SAN JOSE, Calif., May 16 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Altera Corporation
(Nasdaq: ALTR) today announced that Texas Instruments (TI) leveraged Altera(R) solutions to bring its Digital Light Processing(TM) (DLP(TM)) technology to the consumer market, heralding a new generation of exciting TV products. TI has integrated Altera devices, including HardCopy(R) structured ASICs, Cyclone(TM) FPGAs, and Stratix(R) FPGAs, into its 720p and 1080p DLP TV chipsets. TI provides its DLP components to television manufacturers, enabling them to bring the highest quality visual experience to consumers.

(Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20050516/SFM019 )

"Altera solutions provide us with the flexibility to respond rapidly to
changing market demands while maintaining the cost-effectiveness to address customer needs," said John Van Scoter, senior vice president of TI, and general manager of DLP Products. "By enabling TI to quickly deliver leading- edge display features, Altera's FPGAs and HardCopy structured ASICs provide us with a critical time-to-market advantage, allowing our customers to offer the latest advances in television technology."

TI initially chose Cyclone devices for their 720p DLP product. Cyclone
devices met TI's performance goals with the lowest speed grade device,
resulting in the maximum cost/performance benefit. Cyclone devices were also readily available in high-volume quantities, a critical requirement for the consumer markets in which DLP technology is being enthusiastically received. Following the success of their 720p DLP product, TI adopted Stratix devices and HardCopy structured ASICs for their 1080p DLP product. The high- performance digital signal processing (DSP) capabilities of Altera's devices bolster the advanced video processing required to deliver the finest full HDTV picture quality at 1920 x 1080 pixel resolutions.

"By delivering comprehensive DLP-based solutions to their customers, TI
has established the foundation for a whole host of new display products that enable consumers everywhere to experience the best visual quality," said John Daane, Altera's president and CEO. "Developers of consumer technology are increasingly relying on Altera programmable logic to bring industry-leading innovations to fruition while shortening their design cycles. Reflecting this trend, the competitive edge that Altera provides to TI's DLP products reinforces their leadership position in the display space."

About Altera
Altera Corporation is the world's pioneer in system-on-a-programmable-chip (SOPC) solutions. Combining programmable logic technology with software tools, intellectual property, and technical services, Altera provides high-value programmable solutions to approximately 14,000 customers worldwide. More information is available at http://www.altera.com.

NOTE: Altera, The Programmable Solutions Company, the stylized Altera
logo, specific device designations and all other words that are identified as
trademarks and/or service marks are, unless noted otherwise, the trademarks and service marks of Altera Corporation in the U.S. and other countries. Digital Light Processing, DLP, and DLP Cinema are trademarks of Texas Instruments. All other product or service names are the property of their respective holders.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050516/sfm178.html?.v=2

What's this? A 1080p consumer electronics device (PS3) in one year? Well so much for all those HLR 1080p sets that don't accept 1080p, I guess they will end up with all the MPEG2 DirecTV HD-TiVo boxes and the looser of the HD-DVD/BluRay mess.

Okay so it probably isn't as bad as either of those two other scenarios but what the hell is with the HD revolution? Its a mess.

Originally posted by John_Jones_CA
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050516/sfm178.html?.v=2

What's this? A 1080p consumer electronics device (PS3) in one year? Well so much for all those HLR 1080p sets that don't accept 1080p, I guess they will end up with all the MPEG2 DirecTV HD-TiVo boxes and the looser of the HD-DVD/BluRay mess.

Okay so it probably isn't as bad as either of those two other scenarios but what the hell is with the HD revolution? Its a mess.

Dual HDMI up to 1080p on the Ps3 in Spring of 06. I'm not sure what to do, in light of that.

I am praying that Samsung, Mits., Optoma, Toshiba, et al make a decision here to provide 1080p availability on at least the HDMI input.

Either that, or do we have to wait until well into 2006 to buy a display? :rolleyes:

You'll probably have to wait until the 2006 models come out, unless they decide to change things halfway through the model year. I'm still going to get a 61"/67" 1080P this year. Althoough it looks more likely I will get the cheaper set. I figure I can always sell it in a year and get a new set if I have to. I've been waiting for 1080P for almost 4 years and I can't wait any longer. I'm ready to dump my 4 year old HD Toshiba asap.

Originally posted by aaronwt
You'll probably have to wait until the 2006 models come out, unless they decide to change things halfway through the model year. I'm still going to get a 61"/67" 1080P this year. Althoough it looks more likely I will get the cheaper set. I figure I can always sell it in a year and get a new set if I have to. I've been waiting for 1080P for almost 4 years and I can't wait any longer. I'm ready to dump my 4 year old HD Toshiba asap.

That's unacceptable for me. There's no way I'm buying a new TV this year and replacing it 6-12 months. When I make a move, it needs to last for several years, at least.

wow, those ps3 specs are mighty impressive. it will be interesting to see how the next gen games compare between the ps3 and xbox 360.

I want to buy a new tv not plasma at last 70 inches some advice should I buy now or wait and if you say wait then how long and for what?

Originally posted by mikefeldy
I want to buy a new tv not plasma at last 70 inches some advice should I buy now or wait and if you say wait then how long and for what?

Hell, I don't know anymore.

So no 1080p tv released this year outputs 1080p using hdmi?

Originally posted by abarsami
So no 1080p tv released this year outputs 1080p using hdmi?

So far, no. Maybe we'll get some last minute announcement from some company, but it's probably doubtful.

why buy 1080p tv then if it can't output to 1080p. I mean bluray, ps3, hd-dvd players... don't you need 1080p output via hdmi?

Or does it upconvert to 1080p? But then the image won't look as good.

The HD-DVD/BluRay players will output 1080i initially.

Don't want to turn this into a PS3 thread but that press release reads just like the PS2 press release.

3 ethernet ports? Bluetooth? Blue ray? Why?

So you are going to buy a device with a blueray drive and then they are going to combine the 2 competing formats and you won't be able to use your PS3 to play that new format movies. 3 ethernet ports? 2 output, 1 input? That makes ZERO sense and bluetooth is dead. Its almost like Sony went out and gathered all kinds of technology and tossed them in a box without looking at them and deciding if they were really needed.

oh and don't forget:

Design and specifications are subject to change without notice.

I'll believe it when I see it, right now I don't believe it, even though it was an official press release. Sony is just trying to steal some MS thunder and nothing more.

Does anyone really know if there is any visible difference between 1080i and 1080p? Since the current coming 1080p tv's upconvert a 1080i to 1080p is there really any quality loss?

wow, i didn't know that. Kinda wierd.

Originally posted by MikeAlletto
Don't want to turn this into a PS3 thread but that press release reads just like the PS2 press release.

3 ethernet ports? Bluetooth? Blue ray? Why?

So you are going to buy a device with a blueray drive and then they are going to combine the 2 competing formats and you won't be able to use your PS3 to play that new format movies. 3 ethernet ports? 2 output, 1 input? That makes ZERO sense and bluetooth is dead. Its almost like Sony went out and gathered all kinds of technology and tossed them in a box without looking at them and deciding if they were really needed.

oh and don't forget:



I'll believe it when I see it, right now I don't believe it, even though it was an official press release. Sony is just trying to steal some MS thunder and nothing more.

Does anyone really know if there is any visible difference between 1080i and 1080p? Since the current coming 1080p tv's upconvert a 1080i to 1080p is there really any quality loss?

How does 3 ethernet ports make zero sense? Especially if they are gigabit. I hagve a gigabit network and already have a couple of devices in my Living room on it. This could act as a gigabit hub. In my condo I have 9 devices on my network so far. If I added my TiVos that number would go up to 13. You can't have too many ethernet ports. And wireless is too slow for file transfers, especially if Im transfering several hours of HD recordings. At 8.5 GB for each hour recorded, I need that gigabit connection.

Originally posted by abarsami
wow, i didn't know that. Kinda wierd.

Just as DVD is 480i content that most modern players upconvert to 480p (or higher resolution) HD-DVD (BluRay) will be 1080i content, in which players will eventually upconvert to 1080p (or higher resolution). Of course with the advantage of a digital signal connection between the source and the display it no longer matters (at least in theory) whether the source or display is upconverting the signal. Actually from a bandwidth perspective all signal modifications should happen at the display rather than in the player. The actual quality of the conversion processing may ovveride this though.

1080p uses twice the bandwidth as 1080i (at the same framerate, and sample quality, uncompressed) Thus an uncompressed 1080p signal has much more information than a 1080i signal. After compression though the quality difference would be bounded by the data rate. Thus content creation devices (PCs, video game machines) have a much greater incentive than content delivery devices (TV, DVD) for using 1080p as opposed to 1080i since there is no signal compression between source and display.

Originally posted by aaronwt
How does 3 ethernet ports make zero sense? Especially if they are gigabit. I hagve a gigabit network and already have a couple of devices in my Living room on it. This could act as a gigabit hub. In my condo I have 9 devices on my network so far. If I added my TiVos that number would go up to 13. You can't have too many ethernet ports. And wireless is too slow for file transfers, especially if Im transfering several hours of HD recordings. At 8.5 GB for each hour recorded, I need that gigabit connection.

Why in the world would anyone buy a game console to use as a ethernet hub? It doesn't make any sense and isn't going to be any cheaper than buying a dedicated gigabit switch. Its very confusing as to what sony is trying to do with the playstation 3. Is it a game console? Some kind of hidef device? A blueray dvd player? Or a network device? You're tivos aren't going to benefit from a gigabit connection. The only things that will are any PC's with gigabit ethernet. Put a 10 or 100mb device on the same switch and you won't get any increased performance. I'd put money on even your PC not getting that much benefit. A file server dedicated to just dishing out data would but not a normal home pc. Adding a gigabit switch to an existing 10/100mb environment isn't going to give you anymore bandwidth and is a waste of money.

You're living in the 1990s. The PS3 is everything you want and more. Or at least thats what Sony hopes. It should be a console, media player, BD-player, HD content aggregator, etc. The PS3 can handle 12 HDTV streams at once. At 15Mbit/s per stream, thats 180Mbit/s. GBe is needed. Imagine watching one main HD feed and four or so surrounding it? All coming in over ethernet (encrypted of course - and it'd be easy for Sony to make a cable card 2.0 reciever).

Having no current TVs support 1080P input really makes me want to wait for spring 2006 to get a real-1080P TV and a PS3 (i'm not into online play as much - too many griefers). I was really waiting for the 61" DLP but maybe I'll wait and deal with my 27" TV for another 12 months or so.

I am planning on buying an HLR6168, when they arrive. One of my reasons for waiting for the 68 vs. the 67 was the additional HDMI input. The additional HDMI input will be great for video but I’ve learned that the audio feed will be limited to stereo because that is all the TV is capable of. The optical output on the TV will only pass a stereo signal, which is in sync with the video. If you want a Dolby Digital or a DTS signal for a surround sound system the signal will have to come direct from the audio source, which means it will likely be out of sync with the video. This link explains it best. http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/AV_lip_sync_delay.html

I hope one of the experts on this forum will tell me that I’m wrong. My current planned solution for my setup is to purchase a digital audio delay device. http://www.felston.com/dd540/ I would be very pleased to here that this isn’t necessary.

I wonder if Samsung could upgrade these 2005 1080P sets in the future to except 1080P? Just a thought.

Originally posted by jwv651
I wonder if Samsung could upgrade these 2005 1080P sets in the future to except 1080P? Just a thought.
Assuming "except" is a typo...

In theory, yes. From a practicality standpoint, who knows.

As usual, I'm not the expert, but here's what I've picked up from a discussion of such an upgrade in the Qualia 006 owners thread. Sony will be offering an "R2" upgrade to their Qualia 004 projector to allow it to take a 1080p@60Hz signal. The concensus is that the recent availability of an HDMI port capable of handling 1080p @ 60Hz signal makes this upgrade possible. There is speculation that a similar upgrade can be made available for the Qualia 006 HDTV. The upgrade for the Qualia 004 has been described as a "board" replacement that includes the HDMI ports in the back panel. Again, speculation is that a similar upgrade can be done for the Qualia 006 and there is certainly a strong desire for said upgrade to occur. One poster claimed that all of the Sony HDTV back panels were pretty much the same, so the upgrade might be universally possible all Sony 1080i sets with HDMI. (I'd advise going over to the Qualia Owners thread in case I've garbled something here.)

So, making similar guesses and speculations in regard to the Samsung sets, such an upgrade is at least theoretically possible. Whether it is economically feasible for Samsung is an entirely different issue.

Originally posted by MikeAlletto
Don't want to turn this into a PS3 thread but that press release reads just like the PS2 press release.

3 ethernet ports? Bluetooth? Blue ray? Why?

So you are going to buy a device with a blueray drive and then they are going to combine the 2 competing formats and you won't be able to use your PS3 to play that new format movies. 3 ethernet ports? 2 output, 1 input? That makes ZERO sense and bluetooth is dead. Its almost like Sony went out and gathered all kinds of technology and tossed them in a box without looking at them and deciding if they were really needed.


I'll believe it when I see it, right now I don't believe it, even though it was an official press release. Sony is just trying to steal some MS thunder and nothing more.

Does anyone really know if there is any visible difference between 1080i and 1080p? Since the current coming 1080p tv's upconvert a 1080i to 1080p is there really any quality loss?

This entire post brought me back down to reality. Thanks Mike! :) But the point about the 1990's is also valid. These game machines are a new animal entirely from a decade ago. A LOT of people are going to buy them as entry level, relatively cheap devices. Again, this assumes that those specs never change. ;)

"Subject to change without notice."

But the point about the 1990's is also valid.

Thats so true, which I hate. I can't stand this convergence phase we are in. I don't want any of my devices to be multipurpose. I wish these manufacturers would concentrate on making their device do one thing and do it the best they can instead of the device doing a ton of little things and it never ends up doing any of them very well.

I wonder if Samsung could upgrade these 2005 1080P sets in the future to except 1080P? Just a thought.

Wouldn't that be sweet. I'm not holding my breadth though. I'm still going to get the 6168 model. I figure tv's are just like computers. As soon as you buy it something new is just around the corner. You have to look at the current environment and get the best that you can afford at the time you want it. Otherwise you'll be waiting forever. Technology is not going to stop just so we can buy a tv :)

I probably won't even get a PS3. At least not right away. Watch for it to be priced $300-$400 when its released. No thanks. I did that horrible pricing with the PS2. I may sit this entire round out all together as far as consoles go.

Originally posted by MikeAlletto
Wouldn't that be sweet. I'm not holding my breadth though. I'm still going to get the 6168 model. I figure tv's are just like computers. As soon as you buy it something new is just around the corner. You have to look at the current environment and get the best that you can afford at the time you want it. Otherwise you'll be waiting forever. Technology is not going to stop just so we can buy a tv :)

I probably won't even get a PS3. At least not right away. Watch for it to be priced $300-$400 when its released. No thanks. I did that horrible pricing with the PS2. I may sit this entire round out all together as far as consoles go. Oh...I am not waiting either...I already pre-ordered the HLR6768 from TVA, I just received my refund check from Samsung for a faulty HLP6163...Now the waiting game starts again!

Do you by chance have the link to that powerbuy thread? I haven't been able to find it. Thank you so much!

Originally posted by housmank
Do you by chance have the link to that powerbuy thread? I haven't been able to find it. Thank you so much!

Very top of this forum. One of the sticky threads.

Originally posted by MikeAlletto
I probably won't even get a PS3. At least not right away. Watch for it to be priced $300-$400 when its released. No thanks. I did that horrible pricing with the PS2. I may sit this entire round out all together as far as consoles go.

well the PS2 was priced at $300 and the PS1 was the same. Just about every single gaming console since Atari has had the $300 pricetag to it. Its also a fact that when they up the price to 400 or 500 bucks, the system generally bombs. So the PS3 will most likely have a $300 price to it. I don't see what you get by sitting out this round for consoles. You decision but I guess we'll meet up again in 2010 or 2011 when the next gen consoles arrive with PS4 and Xbox3.

Anyway, I'm pumped to see how these new systems look on a 720p

Originally posted by AkaStp
Amazon (direct and thru OfficeDepot) has a great price on the HLR5067. Do a search on Amazon.com using "HLR5067WX"

Does anyone have a comment about this price? Specifically, can this really be true and what would shipping add to this?

Originally posted by uiucsb
Does anyone have a comment about this price? Specifically, can this really be true and what would shipping add to this?

The Amazon price says it qualifies for free shipping. Somebody give it a whirl!

Originally posted by Shape
My PC has a DVI output port, a VGA output port, a component video output port, S-video and composite.

And the DVI port can be used with a DVI to HDMI conversion cable.

So who's "stuck" with anything? :confused:

The fact is that VGA looks amazing on my TV. No "dot crawl." Just a perfect 1:1 pixel mapping with great color. And on my Mitsu DLP, the VGA port bypasses all of the sharpness filters. So I haven't even bothered to try HDMI (which doesn't bypass the filters).

Whoops I worded that wrong:

DVI is so awesome, then why are we stuck using vga to connect our comptuers to our DLP's.

Also I now feel the sadness of only 2 HDMI ports even.

1. HDPVR Cable box
2. DVD Player
3. Sony Playstation 3

they all need HDMI!

Why must I demote one to component? ugh.

- CG

Originally posted by Saluki
The Amazon price says it qualifies for free shipping. Somebody give it a whirl!

I know this has to be a mistake at Amazon (for instance, the listing is suspiciously devoid of real information). I'd snap it up, but I'm moving to a new house in 2 1/2 weeks...I don't want it delivered to my old house and have to lug it over there, but I don't want it sitting in THEIR garage before I move in...

Still, what a #*&ing price. And since when are giant TVs free shipping?

I may pull the trigger anyway.

EDIT: Anyone know how long ground delivery would take to Southern California? Maybe my above concern is a non-issue...

Originally posted by Daphoid

Also I now feel the sadness of only 2 HDMI ports even.

1. HDPVR Cable box
2. DVD Player
3. Sony Playstation 3

they all need HDMI!

Why must I demote one to component? ugh.

- CG

I also wonder why TVs are so far behind on connection points. But not to be dismayed, you'd be surprised that a lot of DVD players look better with component than HDMI. So says Secrets: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi

1. HDPVR Cable box
2. DVD Player
3. Sony Playstation 3

1. available now
2. available now
3. available around 2007

I wouldn't worry. By then hdmi splitter boxes will probably be really cheap. There really isn't anything you can do about it anyways except wait till 2007.

I'm hoping for Spring 2006 acccording to the release from Sony.

And yes, HDMI splitter should be fine assuming I can map that change with my MX-850.

- D

I've also heard that most people cant tell the difference between component and hdmi and dvi

well the PS2 was priced at $300 and the PS1 was the same. Just about every single gaming console since Atari has had the $300 pricetag to it. Its also a fact that when they up the price to 400 or 500 bucks, the system generally bombs. So the PS3 will most likely have a $300 price to it. I don't see what you get by sitting out this round for consoles. You decision but I guess we'll meet up again in 2010 or 2011 when the next gen consoles arrive with PS4 and Xbox3.

Which I thought was too expensive then. The new nintendo will probably be 150-199. With the new xbox and PS3 being 300-400. With the current generation there just wasn't anything new. Everything looked snazzier but the games were all the same. This next generation will just see more of the same. I just don't know how many versions of "lets kick the bad guy in the head till he drops over and over again" or "lets kill aliens and save the world" games I can play anymore. There isn't any originality left. I swear I watch the game more than I play them these days.

I definitely won't be there opening day, maybe after the first round of price drops.

Originally posted by abarsami
So no 1080p tv released this year outputs 1080p using hdmi? Isn't this a typo? Shouldn't this read that no 1080p TV released this year accepts a 1080p input, including via HDMI? I believe all Samsung 1080p's will output 1080p.

Originally posted by MikeAlletto
Which I thought was too expensive then. The new nintendo will probably be 150-199. With the new xbox and PS3 being 300-400. With the current generation there just wasn't anything new. Everything looked snazzier but the games were all the same. This next generation will just see more of the same. I just don't know how many versions of "lets kick the bad guy in the head till he drops over and over again" or "lets kill aliens and save the world" games I can play anymore. There isn't any originality left. I swear I watch the game more than I play them these days.

I definitely won't be there opening day, maybe after the first round of price drops.

I'm almost considering the same tactic, especially since I have a pretty nice gameworthy PC.

I'm not big on PC gaming anymore it seems, the ps3 already has a reserved shelf in my equipment rack, as does 4 of it's bluetooth controllers.... mmmmm......

Originally posted by shanec
I also wonder why TVs are so far behind on connection points. But not to be dismayed, you'd be surprised that a lot of DVD players look better with component than HDMI. So says Secrets: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi

I can see how some people can't tell the difference but how can component be better than dvi/hdmi? Assuming a digital source, component video connections would have to do a D/A conversion and then a A/D conversion just to get back to digital. How could this produce a better picture? Even if I couldn't tell the difference, I would psychologically need to use dvi over component!

Even if I couldn't tell the difference, I would psychologically need to use dvi over component!
Well stated! I feel so much better that I'm not alone in thinking that way. All someone had to do was put a slot for a module like on a Sony 127X video projector, and we could plug in whatever future digital connectors we needed. For the prices of the higher end RPTVs, I don't think thats too much to ask for. OR, just provide an upgrade at cost for the loyal owners. Either of these two options would make buying a $7K RPTV a lot easier to swallow.

still doesn't help me, I guess I need a HDMI switch in a year or so.

- D

Originally posted by Daphoid
I'm not big on PC gaming anymore it seems, the ps3 already has a reserved shelf in my equipment rack, as does 4 of it's bluetooth controllers.... mmmmm......

Don't bank on those PS3 specs just yet, especially near-death bluetooth.

Remember:Subject to change without notice.

I don't get why people think bluetooth is "near death." I have bluetooth in my laptop, PDA, phone, headset. People are even getting it in their cars these days. Hell, even Dodge is offering it as an option on most cars.

Bluetooth is a little awkward, but it works and is a cheap technology to include in a device.

Originally posted by Shape
I don't get why people think bluetooth is "near death." I have bluetooth in my laptop, PDA, phone, headset. People are even getting it in their cars these days. Hell, even Dodge is offering it as an option on most cars.

Bluetooth is a little awkward, but it works and is a cheap technology to include in a device.

Fair 'nuff.

Just because Bluetooth has failed to become a universal wireless connectivity method (the way USB has succeeded for wired peripherals) does not preclude it from being very usefull in applications such as the PS3 controller or cell phone headsets or other such applications. It just means that manufacturers can't assume other devices have bluetooth. Thus bluetooth keyboards and mouses (outside of Mac-dom) will need to be bundled with Bluetooth-USB base stations to be useable on the majority of systems without it.

Now if there were a similar standard that WAS taking off THEN bluetooth's utility for apps like the PS3 would be in jeopardy. With the current situation Bluetooth will just stagnate, not die. Sony can use it for its wireless controller for PS3 and it will be only slightly better than if they had used a proprietary technology instead. Its no longer a selling point but it still gets the job done in a reasonably efficient / economic manner.

I'm about to buy a 6168. I may end up buying an Xbox 360 and PS3. What's the bottom line impact to me that the PS3 outputs 1080p and the 6168 doesn't accept 1080p input? Significant PQ difference? Won't be 1080 at all? Is it stupid for me to buy a 6168 partly for gaming purposes rather than wait a year for 1080p input models? Thanks.

Originally posted by swankdaddy7
I'm about to buy a 6168. I may end up buying an Xbox 360 and PS3. What's the bottom line impact to me that the PS3 outputs 1080p and the 6168 doesn't accept 1080p input? Significant PQ difference? Won't be 1080 at all? Is it stupid for me to buy a 6168 partly for gaming purposes rather than wait a year for 1080p input models? Thanks.

My GUESS, based on everything I've read:

The difference between 1080p and 1080i is about the same as the difference between 480p and 480i.

I know it's not like a difference between 480i and 1080i.

The TV's convert 1080i to 1080p, so you'll still have 1080p.

They don't take a direct 1080p signal though AFAICR, so this may just be future proofing on Sony's part.

I've seen several comments about the debate between getting a 1080i HDMI input TV now, or waiting a year for TVs that accept 1080p over HDMI. I've been debating that myself actually. My question is, what evidence is there that anyone will actually make TVs that accept 1080p, next year or ever? I guess I just haven't heard any evidence other than an our assumption that it's on it's way.

Originally posted by BruiserG
I've seen several comments about the debate between getting a 1080i HDMI input TV now, or waiting a year for TVs that accept 1080p over HDMI. I've been debating that myself actually. My question is, what evidence is there that anyone will actually make TVs that accept 1080p, next year or ever? I guess I just haven't heard any evidence other than an our assumption that it's on it's way.

the best evidence is probably the fact that companies such as sony are planning to sell products that output a 1080p signal (ps3). if sony is going to be selling the ps3 with 1080p output via hdmi, you can bet sony will eventually be selling tvs that accept a 1080p signal. and if that happens, you can bet competitors will follow. even if there were no discernible difference between the pq of a 1080i and 1080p signal when displayed on a quality 1080p tv, it's too big of a marketing advantage for one company to be able to market their tv as accepting a full 1080p signal compared to a lowly competitor's tv.

Would Sony make the output selectable allowing you to send 1080i to a new Samsung 68 or 78 series?

If any source ouputs 1080p, and since these Samsung 1080p's don't accept 1080p (at this time as far as we know), is it 1080i that is actually being input, and then of course converted to 1080p? If a source outputs 1080p, is it accurate to assume it also outputs 1080i?

Originally posted by T. Perinne
Would Sony make the output selectable allowing you to send 1080i to a new Samsung 68 or 78 series?

I'd about bet the PS3 (and Xbox360, for that matter) will have dashboards from which to control audio and video settings like the present Xbox does.

On the present Xbox, you can turn on/off 480p, 720, and 1080i right in the menu.

Originally posted by Ronnie 1.8
If any source ouputs 1080p, and since these Samsung 1080p's don't accept 1080p (at this time as far as we know), is it 1080i that is actually being input, and then of course converted to 1080p? If a source outputs 1080p, is it accurate to assume it also outputs 1080i?

Disclaimer: My response will utilize the concept of 'clearly better' which is not strictly a well defined concept but I hope you follow allong anyways :)

Sources:
720p and 1080i are both clearly better than any of 720i (never seen), 480p, 480i (SD) or less. But neither one is clearly better than the other. 1080p is clearly better than either 720p or 1080i.

I think it is safe to assume that any source that outputs a format A will also output format B as long as A is clearly better than B. Although there is no reason why it must be so.

Displays:
A 1080p display that only accepts 1080i or 720p inputs is clearly better than either a 720p or a 1080i display. A 1080p display that accepts 1080p, 1080i or 720p is clearly better than a 1080p display that accepts 1080i or 720p only. The current 1080p sets are capable of displaying 'all' of a 1080i signal and all of a 720p signal, this is better than all previous TVs but it does NOT mean that they will be able to display 'all' of a 1080p signal, they can't.

I think it is safe to assume any display that inputs a format A will also input format B as long as A is clearly better than B. Although there is no reason why it must be so.

I could formalize these into some sort of 'Fundamental Theorem of HD Formats' but then I would have to prove them so I will just state them withoout proof :)

The whole issue is that the weak link in the system isn't the display (the light-engine) but is the electronics processing the data to be displayed on the display. This is not un-like a digital camera that is lens bounded. We are used to the image quality being bounded by the sensor (4mp camera) but as sensors get better (better than film per sensor area) the lens becomes the bottleneck, negating the usefulness of better sensors (without better lenses).

Aren't we also really waiting for source material to be recorded in 1080P? Evan if the new Samsungs were to accept 1080P, and HD-DVD / BluRay were to output 1080P, then the source material would also have to be recorded in 1080P or else you'd most likely be getting an upconverted 1080i signal from the players.

How hard is it to create games in 1080P? Are movies already in 1080P? I know I've read that the equipment is expensive and mostly likely a long time away for TV shows to be recorded in 1080P (for HDTV).

So I guess my point is if we don't start getting source material in 1080P its all being upconverted anyways so the new Samsungs not accepting 1080P isn't so bad. Am I right?

Originally posted by T. Perinne
... I know I've read that the equipment is expensive and mostly likely a long time away for TV shows to be recorded in 1080P (for HDTV).
Another issue in regard to TV broadcasts is that the current HDTV broadcast spectrum does not have sufficient bandwidth to carry an uncompressed 1080p signal.

Originally posted by T. Perinne
... So I guess my point is if we don't start getting source material in 1080P its all being upconverted anyways so the new Samsungs not accepting 1080P isn't so bad. Am I right?
My main complaint about limiting the Sammys to 1080i is that over the digital inputs you will loose the flexibility to decide for yourself which scaling/de-interlacing technology you want to use because the internal scaler will always be operating. Whether this is a significant limitation remains to be seen.

Originally posted by donb1948


My main complaint about limiting the Sammys to 1080i is that over the digital inputs you will loose the flexibility to decide for yourself which scaling/de-interlacing technology you want to use because the internal scaler will always be operating. Whether this is a significant limitation remains to be seen.

Question:

What about if you buy a DVDO Iscan or a Dragonfly or something like that. If the TV is capable of displaying 1080p, is there any way you can "get around" what you just described, possibly with an external processor?

Originally posted by T. Perinne
xB]How hard is it to create games in 1080P? Are movies already in 1080P? I know I've read that the equipment is expensive and mostly likely a long time away for TV shows to be recorded in 1080P (for HDTV). [/B]

Most PC games could output in 1080p (although whether you graphics card can handle it is open to question - 1920x1080 is a lot of pixels!). Most movies are filmed at 24 frames per second. So they are no where near 60p in terms of what is filmed. This is why we have 3:2 pulldown - a way to move 24 frames to 60 frames.

Hello, I haven't read all 164 pages, but do we know around how long it will be until Samsung (or any other DLP) decides to make a rear projection set with 1080p input? I am planning to buy one whenever that happens but not without it.

Originally posted by ThePanda
Hello, I haven't read all 164 pages, but do we know around how long it will be until Samsung (or any other DLP) decides to make a rear projection set with 1080p input? I am planning to buy one whenever that happens but not without it.

Probably looking at a year from now, if I had to guess.

I see. Thanks.

Ranking the difficulty of creating 1080p sources...

Video Games / HTPC -- Easy, just requires more horsepower in the graphics card. We aren't storing or transmitting full motion video any more than a couple feet...

Hollywood Movies -- Anything shot on 35mm film can be scanned essentially at 4320p24. The framerate of a 1080i60 is not really better than a 1080p60 because of the low 'filmic' framerate, because of 3:2 pulldown. So 1080p for movies is unnecessary but easy (just wastes more bandwidth/ storage) With the same amount of bandwidth as 1080p60 we could have 1710p24 which would better match the captured source using the same bandwidth. That would be a more worthy goal.

Television -- Recording 1080p60 video is expensive, transmitting it over the air, on sattelites or even over cable is even more so. All TV reception will be TVoIP before we will be able to increase bandwidth requirements again. This is why 1080i and 720p were approved as compromises, we can't afford 1080p and that won't change soon.

If HDMI 1080p input does not show up on the current sets then I would agree that for Samsung sets Q of BanditZ is correct - next years sets.

I still believe that there is a chance that the HLR 1080p sets may have HDMI 1080p input. There is a LG set that received FCC approval approval yesterday (not a 1080p set - it is a 720p set) that had Silicon Image HDMI chips in it that can handle 1080p input. It seems clear to me that the manufacturers are aware of this issue and are trying to address it.

We will just have to wait and see when they arrive. :)

Originally posted by schaffer970
If HDMI 1080p input does not show up on the current sets then I would agree that for Samsung sets Q of BanditZ is correct - next years sets.

I still believe that there is a chance that the HLR 1080p sets may have HDMI 1080p input. There is a LG set that received FCC approval approval yesterday (not a 1080p set - it is a 720p set) that had Silicon Image HDMI chips in it that can handle 1080p input. It seems clear to me that the manufacturers are aware of this issue and are trying to address it.

We will just have to wait and see when they arrive. :)

I'm really hoping some of the "later" comers to this year, like Mitsubishi, Toshiba, and Optoma (dead quiet about 2005 so far), get a clue and make at least ONE HDMI input 1080p ready. Just that alone would make all the difference in the world.

Otherwise, is there a way, or such thing, as "upgrading" one of these sets to do it, in the future? How could it be done?

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
Question:

What about if you buy a DVDO Iscan or a Dragonfly or something like that. If the TV is capable of displaying 1080p, is there any way you can "get around" what you just described, possibly with an external processor?
Q...

Not over the digital inputs. The VGA port on the new Sammy 1080p sets will be able to take a 1080p @ 60Hz signal, according to current specs. It was proposed in a recent post that you could use a DVDO Iscan or Dragonfly with appropriate adapters to get an initially HDCP protected digital stream into the VGA port. Another post, in the same thread, suggested that the QP of such an arrangement should be good. On the other hand, I recently saw in a Mitsubishi(?,I believe) thread where someone commented that PQ over VGA on his system was unusable. And so it goes...

Using this picture from the first page:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=5554765&fullpage=1

What side of the tv are the connectors on? I'm trying to plan my cable lengths. My rack is going to be on the left side of the tv (when looking at the front). What side are the connectors usually at?

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
Otherwise, is there a way, or such thing, as "upgrading" one of these sets to do it, in the future? How could it be done?

In theory, yes. Recently, there was a discussion on the Qualia 006 owners thread about the R2 upgrade of the Qualia 004 projector to accept a 1080p@60Hz signal. The jist of the discussion was that the upgrade was basically a "board" swap in the Q 004 and that a similar action could be taken with the Q 006. I do not know a thing about construction/layout of the Sammy 1080p, but if anything like the Sony, an upgrade is theoretically possible. The caveat is whether such an upgrade would be economically feasible for Samsung.

ADDDED in EDIT: And then there is this... As the new owner of a $13,000 Qualia 006 (I'm not), I would be willing to pay another $2000 in a year or so to get new electronics that give me 1080p input capability and maybe fix a few bugs. As the owner of a new $4000 Sammy 1080p set, would I be willing to pay $1000 to $2000 a year from now for an upgrade, especially as we expect the price of new sets to drop.

got my HLR5067 set up last night, after beating myself up for ordering before the amazon deal.
my hookup:
Air2: OTA from a ratshack un-amp'ed rabbit ear
Component1: yamaha 5790 receiver as a switch
Component1-1: dishnetwork 811 - component to yamaha
Component1-2: cheap sony 480p dvd player - component to yamaha
Component2: playstation2

On the audio side, only the PS2 is feeding the 5067 via old red/white RCA.
the rest optical to the yamaha
going to get an extra optical tonight to feed the 5067 to the yamaha

Calibration: DVE via my DVD player, then copied the settings over to the Air input. Once tweaked, here's what I noticed at my current settings:
Contrast 60, Brightness 55, Sharpness 0, Color 52, color temp - normal
Red filter on the SMPTE screen, there's a slight red-push, no matter what settings I try.
Blue filter on the SMPTE screen, perfect blocks of blue and black, no other shades.
Green filter on the SMPTE screen, a total mess. Everything's coming in at different levels and no amount of tweaking could get rid of it.


Initial Impressions:
HDNET rules - watched Mind Meld and stared in amazement at Nemoy's house.
HDMovie - Terms of Endearment was very noisy
Other dishnetwork channels came in so-so.

clicking 'info' on the samsung shows I'm getting 1960x1080i/60hz

OTA - the channels I do get, come in great... ended up watching Conan for no good reason. Trumps red tie almost burned a hole in my retina. KCET-HD is especially excellent. (PBS-HD, I believe)

clicking 'info' on the samsung doesn't let me know what broadcast type I'm getting... unfortunately.

PS2 - big problems on what I'm doing... I have the component cable set and feed audio directly to the tv. Game in progress is Front Mission 4.
No lipsync, but it looks UGLY. no, it looks FUGLY. I'm saddened, but hopefully can find ways of fixing these issues. Probably need to copy the Air/Component1 settings to Component2 first. Either way, compared to the HD content, the PS2 might as well be an atari 2600. I quickly turned off the PS2...

480P DVD - watched a little bit of Titan AE, after DVE'ing. Excellent. Very crisp, almost HD-like. Going to do Phantom Menace tonight, and Attack of the Clones tomorrow, in preparation for Friday.

clicking 'info' on the samsung shows I'm getting 720x480p/60hz

DNR - can be turned off. I have it Off right now.
DNIe - cannot be turned off. Watching the Demo mode, I wish I could turn it off, as I like the Off side better.

This is the more technical version of what I thought :) Based on this thinking Im pretty sure I'd be happy with at new 68 series Sammy that upconverts 1080i to 1080p... with the exception of videogames, there wouldn't be too much missed without having 1080p inputs on the TV.

Thats IF the scaler in the Sammy is a good one though...


Originally posted by John_Jones_CA
Ranking the difficulty of creating 1080p sources...

Video Games / HTPC -- Easy, just requires more horsepower in the graphics card. We aren't storing or transmitting full motion video any more than a couple feet...

Hollywood Movies -- Anything shot on 35mm film can be scanned essentially at 4320p24. The framerate of a 1080i60 is not really better than a 1080p60 because of the low 'filmic' framerate, because of 3:2 pulldown. So 1080p for movies is unnecessary but easy (just wastes more bandwidth/ storage) With the same amount of bandwidth as 1080p60 we could have 1710p24 which would better match the captured source using the same bandwidth. That would be a more worthy goal.

Television -- Recording 1080p60 video is expensive, transmitting it over the air, on sattelites or even over cable is even more so. All TV reception will be TVoIP before we will be able to increase bandwidth requirements again. This is why 1080i and 720p were approved as compromises, we can't afford 1080p and that won't change soon.

Surely, if you don't mind me calling you Surely, there's a service menu thingie to turn DNIe off. Does anybody know how to get to a service menu on these HLR's?

Originally posted by donb1948
In theory, yes. Recently, there was a discussion on the Qualia 006 owners thread about the R2 upgrade of the Qualia 004 projector to accept a 1080p@60Hz signal. The jist of the discussion was that the upgrade was basically a "board" swap in the Q 004 and that a similar action could be taken with the Q 006. I do not know a thing about construction/layout of the Sammy 1080p, but if anything like the Sony, an upgrade is theoretically possible. The caveat is whether such an upgrade would be economically feasible for Samsung.

ADDDED in EDIT: And then there is this... As the new owner of a $13,000 Qualia 006 (I'm not), I would be willing to pay another $2000 in a year or so to get new electronics that give me 1080p input capability and maybe fix a few bugs. As the owner of a new $4000 Sammy 1080p set, would I be willing to pay $1000 to $2000 a year from now for an upgrade, especially as we expect the price of new sets to drop.

Very fascinating...

They are on the left side when looking at the back. So, they will be on the opposite side of your TV from your rack.
See also the photo on this page...

Hmmm...thanks. I will only have hdmi cables going to the tv initially, guess a 6' cable will do fine.

I have a question about the PICTURE menu settings on my HLR4667:

I set the CUSTOM parameters (contrast, brightness etc) to the same values as the MOVIE setting, but the picture
still does not look the same. Is there another setting that MOVIE uses that is hidden? Does the CUSTOM setting use
the brighter bulb setting (120W vs 100W)?

Would somebody mind reading off the service menu parameters available for the HLRxx67W? I'm interested in color decoder and white balance parameters.

Thanks.

bhchan -- Thanks for the detailed report!

Originally posted by bhchan
On the audio side, only the PS2 is feeding the 5067 via old red/white RCA.
the rest optical to the yamaha
going to get an extra optical tonight to feed the 5067 to the yamaha


Have you noticed any audio/video sync issues (since you're feeding the audio receiver directly)? Did you have to tweak a delay parameter on your receiver?

Thanks,

nj

Originally posted by sh05947
I have a question about the PICTURE menu settings on my HLR4667:

I set the CUSTOM parameters (contrast, brightness etc) to the same values as the MOVIE setting, but the picture
still does not look the same. Is there another setting that MOVIE uses that is hidden? Does the CUSTOM setting use
the brighter bulb setting (120W vs 100W)?

if you see things a little bluer or whiter in CUSTOM vs. MOVIE, look carefully down to where it says WARM1 or NORMAL. CUSTOM starts with NORMAL and MOVIE uses WARM1, IIRC. When I switched to CUSTOM, I had to change it to WARM1 to get the exact same image.

Using the various DVE filters and listening to the lengthy DVE explanation of color space, i think i might've ended up going back to WARM1 because that's the 'expected' color space from broadcasters, or something along those lines. (sorry, I'm no expert, I just followed DVE's suggestions/instructions.) :D

Originally posted by rictus
bhchan -- Thanks for the detailed report!
Have you noticed any audio/video sync issues (since you're feeding the audio receiver directly)? Did you have to tweak a delay parameter on your receiver?
Thanks,
nj

Well, given that I spent the night watching Nemoy and Shatner chat, it's going to be tough to answer your question. :D There was no noticeble sync problems on HDnet... though Shatner was still quite over the top, even in just an interview/chat setting.

There's a very good sound/video sync test on the DVE dvd, so at the very least, from 480P DVDs coming through the receiver via component connections, I did not notice any delays. The blink and the 'bloop' sound come out at the same time.

Since I'm component throughout, however, I might be circumventing some of the more strenuous processing in the samsung. (ie, 480i -> 720p)

I'll check tonight when I gingerly turn on my PS2 again. *sigh* If it's still ugly after more tweaking, the PS2 goes back to my toshiba 4:3 CRT.

If someone donates an XBox, I'll test it out for them. :D

Originally posted by rictus
Have you noticed any audio/video sync issues (since you're feeding the audio receiver directly)? Did you have to tweak a delay parameter on your receiver?

I cannot speak for anyone else but I have my 5067 connected directly to my old Technics SA-DX1040 via toslink and I haven't noticed any AV sync issues.

I did notice that while watching "24" the Technics receiver indicated it was receiving a 5.1 surround source, but I never heard a peep from the rear speakers or the sub...hmmm. Any ideas why this would be and how it can be resolved? It all works fine from my DVD players which are also directly connected.

Originally posted by jcs67stang
I did notice that while watching "24" the Technics receiver indicated it was receiving a 5.1 surround source, but I never heard a peep from the rear speakers or the sub

I'm only guessing here, but I had this happen on TNTHD and think they're sending DD5.1 flag, but they only provided two channels and the rest were empty.

Originally posted by bhchan
I'm only guessing here, but I had this happen on TNTHD and think they're sending DD5.1 flag, but they only provided two channels and the rest were empty.
I suppose that could be the cause. Please let us know if you get 5.1 performance with a different channel and / or program...at this point I just want to know that everything is working properly with the Sammy.

My HDTV box came with the standard Component Video cables. Actually the only cables I have are these yellow/red/white RCA cables. Should I be looking at SVideo, DVI or HDMI cables for the HLR?

Originally posted by nickavs
My HDTV box came with the standard Component Video cables. Actually the only cables I have are these yellow/red/white RCA cables. Should I be looking at SVideo, DVI or HDMI cables for the HLR?

Yes, do it! Also don't use those Y/R/W cables for component, the cable is rated for that kind of transfer.

DVI and HDMI are pretty.... Pick your poison.

- D

Originally posted by Daphoid
Yes, do it! Also don't use those Y/R/W cables for component, the cable is rated for that kind of transfer.

DVI and HDMI are pretty.... Pick your poison.

- D

Are all the DVI/HDMI cables relatively close in quality? I was going to go to the local best buy or circuity city to try and compare cables but honestly I'm sure I wont see any difference.

You guys have any probs ordering cables on line? I'm assuming no

Originally posted by nickavs
Are all the DVI/HDMI cables relatively close in quality? I was going to go to the local best buy or circuity city to try and compare cables but honestly I'm sure I wont see any difference.

If you are getting a HLRxx67 model then you can use the built-in tuner for cable or over the air TV. Of course your cable company has to support CableCard.

If you have to use the STB then you will need component cables or a HDMI cable with a DVI connector on one end.

If you want an upscaling DVD player then you will have several other choices to make.

The HDMI/DVI cables are over priced in all the stores I've been in.

Check out places like:

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/

Cablecard is all well and good, but I'm assuming those wanting OnDemand features like pause/rewind live TV, and PVR functionality, they're stuck with a cable box?

- D

Originally posted by Daphoid
Cablecard is all well and good, but I'm assuming those wanting OnDemand features like pause/rewind live TV, and PVR functionality, they're stuck with a cable box?

True, and they need more than one HDMI input or some device will have to use component inputs.

Maybe someone will bring a 4x1 HDMI switch to market for a reasonable price.

If I replace my HLP set then it will have to be with one that has at least two digital video inputs. :)

htwaits, you read my mind!

That's why I'm not going cable card, I WANTS my PVR tech, since Tivo isn't up here, and I've love a way to record TV so I can watch it when I want...

a 4x HDMI switch would be awesome, seeing as I have cable box, dvd player, playstation 3 (when it comes)...

Course I didn't make as much as I'd planned this winter, so I'm waiting on the Denon 3910 :\

- D

I just purchased some cables from www.monoprice.com (this company has been mentioned in a couple of threads about cables). Probably not the "best" cables in the world, but for short distances I think they will work. Supposed to receive them tomorrow, so once I get everything up and running I will post my findings. You will find no end of discussion of cables and the relative merits thereof. My feeling is that at least for digital and short runs, it's hard to go too far wrong. :)

Originally posted by Daphoid
a 4x HDMI switch would be awesome, seeing as I have cable box, dvd player, playstation 3 (when it comes)...

- D

Once you have the PS3 you can toss the DVD player as the PS3 will play DVDs also. In another thread someone was wondering how good the playback from the PS3 would be and commented that the horsepower in the PS3 will far exceed that in the standalone boxes, so will hopefully be just as good. We will have to wait and see. :D

Originally posted by schaffer970
Once you have the PS3 you can toss the DVD player as the PS3 will play DVDs also.
I'm using my PC for DVD playback and DVD storage now. TheaterTek is a great software DVD player.

There isn't enough on TV that I want to record, but in the future I may do that too. I don't care for "Cowboys and Aliens" twitch games. Maybe with HD there will be some that pull me in again. The last game I enjoyed was Riven.

this cable thing is driving me nuts, I never knew about the 2 types of DVI cables, the HDMI cable, svideo, rca...... oh man!

does the HLR support HDCP? My Scientific Atlanta Explorer 3250HD requires that for DVI use

thanks for all your help everyone!

Originally posted by nickavs
does the HLR support HDCP?

Yes.

I initially bought a HLR467 3 weeks back and later got a HLR4667
today as I wanted even better colors and black/whites and shadow details
as I saw HLR4667 tv sets at two different places recently and liked the colors
and details. I spent a few hours at home and I compared the PW, colors,
Black/white levels, contrast, shadow details on both of them when
connected to a dish receiver and watching SD channels.

Here are my obeservations while watching SD channles on both of them
(same channel and same picture on both the sets):

HLR4677 (HD2+) has a very sharp, crisp picture quality but lacks in details of
colors, a little bit of whites and blacks. HLR4667 shows some better colors,
vivid and clear but the picture is not that much sharp as HD2+ but is little
smooth and has grain like structure on the faces. Looking at the faces of the
people HD2+ shows the faces more clear due to its sharpness but the HD4
set(HLR4667) shows the faces a little ligher and bright and overall the
whole screen shows the lighter/darker color details of the same colors
very well perhaps due to the technical improvements
by samsung inthe 5th generation light engine and newer color wheels and
some improvements in the DLP chip by TI (this i did not observe on Hd2+
since it shows fills the same color and contrast). The variations of the
colors and white/darks is a plus point on HD4. But I am disappointed
with the clarity and picture quality when compared to HD2+, since HD2+
shows the faces and letter of text very very clear, but Hd4 due to wobulation affects has some little less clarity on the text and people's faces.

Also when I connected my Dish 811 with component to the HD4 set, the HD
quality is amazing with lots of colors and details but the crispness and sharpness that I see on HD2+ set is lacking on Hd4 and
it is some what noticable on some of the scenes.


Ideally, I would like to see a sharp picture of HD2+ and also vivid colors
with variations and good contrast with deeper whites and blacks and
details of HD4. I hope TI adn samsung can come up with that kind of s
set soon. May be the 78 series 1080P exhibits that characters. I am
inclining to think that the wobulated chips may not be able to produce
such a sharp picture as Hd2+. So we need as non-wobulated sharp picture with lots of color variations, vivid colors and deeper whites and blacks with
shadow details similar to the latest better wuality plasma displays.




I hope to get a HDMI-DVI connector and connect my DISH HD channels
with component to one of the set and with HDMI/DVI to the other and
compare both of them on HD channels soon. Somehow I liked the Hd2+
sharp picture(especially when looking at peoples faces and letters) as compared to Hd4. I lived Hd4 PQ better in some of the scenes as it
is better for scenaries and other things(background, natural scenaries etc).

I have still to do some more experiments and a comparision study on
both sets before I decide which set to keep and return the other.

Similar to most on this forum, I eagerly await the the release of the HLRxx68 series. However, can you believe that an 80" DLP may be in development.

HT Blog 5/18/05 (http://www.hometheaterblog.com/)

I may order a HLR6167 later today, but I am wondering about which DVD to use with it. I can get a good deal on the Sammy 941, but most of my research from other threads is out-of-date or inconclusive. Will I get a better picture from the 941 as opposed to a cheaper, non-upconverting player? Will the HDMI output that the 941 has make the difference? Sorry if this is on the wrong thread, but i want to order today.

Originally posted by gargoyle007
I may order a HLR6167 later today, but I am wondering about which DVD to use with it. I can get a good deal on the Sammy 941, but most of my research from other threads is out-of-date or inconclusive. Will I get a better picture from the 941 as opposed to a cheaper, non-upconverting player? Will the HDMI output that the 941 has make the difference? Sorry if this is on the wrong thread, but i want to order today.

I would like to know as well. Looking to replace the cheapie $20 dvd player with a good upconverter.

Also, anyone try compressed (dvd-shrink'd) dvds on these big screens?

Originally posted by Daphoid
[B]Cablecard is all well and good, but I'm assuming those wanting OnDemand features like pause/rewind live TV, and PVR functionality, they're stuck with a cable box?

OK, but can you get a cable card and then later add a third party HD-PVR? I have a low def Tivo now, and want to eventually get a HD version for my new 6168. I wonder if Comcast now offers HD-PVR at a good price in their boxes.

Originally posted by swankdaddy7
OK, but can you get a cable card and then later add a third party HD-PVR? I have a low def Tivo now, and want to eventually get a HD version for my new 6168. I wonder if Comcast now offers HD-PVR at a good price in their boxes.

Yes you can. In fact there are people who are using both a CC and a STB. It appears that the built-in tuner may do a better job of processing the cable signal that the STB but you obviously can't record. By having both you can use the CC if you are watching live and be recording on the STB. From what I have seen, the CC is usually only a couple of bucks a month. Virtually all of the cable providers now offer a HD-PVR box at reasonable prices.

Hi everyone....new to this forum. I've been keeping up with this thread on a daily basis to try to learn as much as possible. I'm getting ready to buy my first HD tv and I was just wondering why I don't see any comments on the upcoming HLR5688? Everyone seems to be talking about every model but that one. Is there a reason? Is it not a good TV? Not worth the price? I'm just curious because this is the TV I've really got my eye on.

Thanks!!!

Originally posted by gargoyle007
I may order a HLR6167 later today, but I am wondering about which DVD to use with it. I can get a good deal on the Sammy 941, but most of my research from other threads is out-of-date or inconclusive. Will I get a better picture from the 941 as opposed to a cheaper, non-upconverting player? Will the HDMI output that the 941 has make the difference? Sorry if this is on the wrong thread, but i want to order today.

If you are looking for a great up-converting DVD player, go with the OPPO. It works great with my HLP-4674. All the up-converting Samsung DVD players have lots of issues. The OPPO is not perfect, but it is very good, cheap ($199) and has great support. OPPO is directly working with several AVS users as Beta testers for upgraded firmware. Find out more than you need to know here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=482239&perpage=20&highlight=oppo&pagenumber=1

I have both a CableCard and a Comcast HD-PVR box on my TV. If I could get the CableCard working right (seems to be faulty and Concast is giving me the run-around) I can use the Firewire out of the TV to record off the CableCard to a Mac pretending to be a D-VHS drive. Comcast has two brands of HD-PVRs and which you get depends on your area. (The local head-ends are geared for either one or the other, so you can't switch.) While it has it's own problems, the Motorola brand is the better of the two. The Scientific Atlanta is one of the WORST hunks of junk I've ever had to use. And I do have to use it, if I want to have HD PVR right now. At least Comcast has signed a deal with Tivo, so I have hope for the future. (But it can't come soon enough for me.)

As for upconverting DVD players, remember that your TV can upconvert too. It has to since it takes all resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i) and plays them in it's own native resolution (720p or 1080i/p). So what it really comes down to is which does a better job, the DVD player or the TV. You really have to make your own judgments on that given any particular combination of player and TV. But that's not too helpful when shopping for DVS players, of course. In general though, the consensus is that the DVD players do a better job more often than not since they have the original data on hand as they go. They could look ahead and use upcoming frames to better do the upconversion. That that they DO, just that they could. Sorry if that's not too helpful, but that's the state of the industry for you.

Personally, I wouldn't be too uptight about DVD quality right now, and instead bide my time with a cheaper player until the HDTV discs and players come round. THEN quality will mean something.

I have been reading this thread since it started. (Finally needed to get some clarifications)

Like many I am looking at my first HD TV and I have held-off in lieu of the new HLR5678 model and the reported 10000:1 contrast ratio and the dual HDMI inputs.

I am fishing for some opinions, advice, etc...

My intention is to hook up DirecTV using a HD-TiVo with a Terk OTA ant.
(Comments on the above are welcome)

Assuming I am going to put a receiver in between I have noted in this thread that A/V sync may be an issue.

First question: If the above is true, what should I look for in a receiver to mitigate this issue? How have you handled this with other sammy sets?



I have envisioned HDMI from the DirecTV HD-tivo to the receiver and then HDMI to the TV. Though when all is said and done I will not be using the TV speakers, so I could, from what I know, just use a DVI to the TV.

2nd question: Is there any other reason I should use either or to the TV



I am considering the purchase via local dealer (No offense TVA)
the options are (BB, CC, Sound Advice, Sears, or Brandsmart)

3rd question: Which of the above would you recommend or not recommend?


Non-sequitor
I live in south Florida and power is always an issue, I am looking into a line conditioner and was wondering about using it in conjunction with a UPS.

TV, receiver, HD TIVO, DVD player, CD player. I would like them all on the line conditioner and at minimum the TV, the Tivo and the receiver on UPS to ensure they do not just shut off if the power is interrupted.

4th question: What should I be looking for when buying a line conditioner and UPS to handle the above without going to far over the top of my needs?

Thank you in advance, your help is appreciated!
Noz

Has anyone got the AV Connection Guide (left hand side on the Samsung USA Support page) to work? Want to make sure it is not just me. :)

Originally posted by schaffer970
Has anyone got the AV Connection Guide (left hand side on the Samsung USA Support page) to work? Want to make sure it is not just me. :)

Yes... It works for me :)

Back again... 2nd day's Impressions here. Since A/V sync issues were questioned, I specifically watched for those last night.

After buying an extra optical cable, I now have all sources pumping their audio to my Yamaha 5790, including the TV. Dishnetwork and DVD are also going through the Yamaha 5790. All connections are either optical or digital coax(depending on equipment) for audio, and component for video. Except OTA, which goes directly to the HLR5067.

Couch arrived, so now I'm watching the HLR5067 at a more proper level, and much more comfortably.

My antenna (and HT room!) is on the wrong side of the house! This means that every time I get up, I cross the 'path' between my antenna and the broadcast. LOL.

1) Watched American Idol OTA. No lipsync issues throughout the show. The caucasian girl looked especially nice in HD. :)

2) Watched the Fran Dresser show OTA. 1 second lipsync issues throughout the show. I blame the weaker signal and/or Fran speaking much faster than maybe the MPEG2 encoder could keep up. Fran doesn't look as nice as the American idol girl when rendered in HD... probably better to see her a little blurry. BTW, turning on and off DNR did not make any difference here sync-wise, but cleaned up the picture slightly.
(off topic: is it me, or does the "kid of fran" actor look like a mini Scott Bale?)


3) Watched Attack of the Clones in DVD (cheap 480P sony). No lipsync issues. Noticed for the first time that Yoda has fine facial hair. Natalie trumps the American Idol girl in sweet eye-candyness.

Tonight: I'm going to get an amp'ed antenna to see if I can clear up KTTV/WB's signal a little and whether the sync issue goes away.

So, to summarize on the lipsync or AV sync issue, it seems like the source material and/or the quality of said material are the main culprits.

Also, for what it's worth, the samsung's internal DTV signal whateveryoucallit pulls OTA signals from my unamp'ed rabbitear antenna a lot better than the Dishnetwork 811 receiver.

Bad news! I just got off the phone with (Mike) Samsung 2nd level technical service. They confirmed the lip sync problem, when using HDMI and a 5 channel audio input on the HLRxx67W series. If you use HDMI the only in sync audio signal available will be a 2 channel stereo signal from the digital (optical) audio out on the TV. His only solution was to bypass the TV with the audio signal. You would then need to use an audio delay device either in the surround sound processor or a separate audio delay box.

He also stated he didn’t think it was that big of an issue. I mentioned that one of the members from this forum stated it was unacceptable on his new HLRxx67W.

I asked him to confirm that the problem either exists or doesn’t exist in the HLRxx68W series. He didn’t have the information but said he would get back with me after contacting headquarters.

He commented that he believes none of the micro device TV manufactures have addressed this issue.

I sent e-mails to the editors of The Perfect Vision and Home Theater Magazine regarding this issue. I haven’t heard back from Home Theater Magazine but Robert Harley of The Perfect Vision said they had not addressed the problem yet in their articles but recognized it as an increasingly important topic as HDMI takes over.

It's wierd that HDMI would cause a delay while Component or OTA-direct does not... anyone with more EE-fu know what might cause the circuitry to slow down HDMI processing?


I don't have any HDMI equipment, so I can't check firsthand. If HDMI sync issues exist, it might hurt the Microsoft-Samsung alliance pushing the xbox360... (or will the xbox360 not use HDMI)

bhchan
The HDMI processing is not the problem. It’s the fact that the HDMI input will only accept a 2 channel signal because that is all the TV is capable of. The video processing takes time so the picture is delayed. If the bypassed audio is not delayed you will have a sync problem.

bhchan:

I also have not noticed any sync issues, I am also running optic from 5067 to my old Technics receiver and am using an un-amped Zenith antenna for OTA HD.

I am curious if you were getting DD5.1 signal AND sound? It seems like my receiver is getting 5.1 from the TV, yet I am only hearing two channel sound (front left/right). I am guessing and hoping that this is because the TV is receving a 5.1 feed via OTA HD, but the stations aren't broadcasting audio using all channels, just stereo. The end result is that my equipment is ready and waiting to produce surround sound, but no sound is being pushed to the rear/center/sub. Am I making sense or did I just confuse everyone...icluding myself?

BTW: receiver works fine with other sources such as my DVD players, I've run the receivers internal tests, tried various modes, etc. The receiver seems to be just fine.

Oh...almost forgot...Natalie is cuter than Carrie, but I'm guessing Carrie would be more fun to hang out with.

Are we saying that ANY audio coming from the TV's optic output is going to be 2-channel? If that is the case...why? And if this is the case, why does my receiver think it is sometimes getting 5.1 from the TV...depending on the station and show being watched of course. For this question, forget HDMI as I am not using HDMI at all...yet.

Thanks.

Lip sink
If you send the audio through the HDMI input it will be 2 channel out. The other inputs can handle 5 channels.

Has anyone actually seen the lipsync problem on these new tvs? I plan on using the hdmi for video only from my cable box. Then running optical from cable box to my pre/pro. If that ends up causing problems I'll just use componet and optical to the pre/pro from the cable box then component to the tv.

Same question applies with dvd players. Going to do the same thing using hdmi for video only. HDMI supports up to 8 channel sound but all the current implementations don't pass all the sound info which is why I'm using it only for video.

Originally posted by jcs67stang
I am curious if you were getting DD5.1 signal AND sound?

I think so, but you know what, I always have my yamaha 5790 in PLIIx mode, so it might be fabricating those... i heard some woofage from my sub yesterday during the American Idle/Idol title trailer thing that comes on every commercial break. Again, that might've been receiver-generated.

I'll check tonight on a 5.1 source both direct from TV and from my dishnetwork. (If I remember how to disable PLIIx, that is)

Oh...almost forgot...Natalie is cuter than Carrie, but I'm guessing Carrie would be more fun to hang out with.

I concur, but suggest that having both simultaneously would be even better. (I'm talking about turning on PIP and setting it to side by side, of course ;)

Originally posted by vandu
bhchan
The HDMI processing is not the problem. It’s the fact that the HDMI input will only accept a 2 channel signal because that is all the TV is capable of. The video processing takes time so the picture is delayed. If the bypassed audio is not delayed you will have a sync problem.

I'm not surprised that it can't take 5.1, because it doesn't have any digital in's, only a digital out... and the tv only has 2 speakers, after all.

the question still remains, is the delay now due to downmixing of the audio? What's the real deal causing a delay on HDMI and

(I guess this means that HDMI is only good for video and that I'll still be rerouting audio to my receiver directly)

Actually, rereading the samsung guy's statement, I'm not certain what the most favorable connection is, since passing audio directly to a receiver still requires a delay... if HDMI video doesn't create a delay, then why is he mentioning a receiver with a delay is needed?

Lip sync
I wouldn't expect the HDMI input to be any different than any other video input from a lag standpoint. If anyone owning one of these sets sends an audio signal directly to their surround processor (bypassing the TV) I would expect them to experience the same video delay that is being discussed. I'v only read about one person on this forum complaining about this. He made it sound very unacceptable and said when he used the digital audio out on the TV to drive the sound processor the problem was corrected. His next complaint was that it was in sync but it was only stereo because he was using the HDMI input. The video lag should very depending on the source. Some signals will require more video processing than others.

I wouldn't expect the HDMI input to be any different than any other video input from a lag standpoint. If anyone owning one of these sets sends an audio signal directly to their surround processor (bypassing the TV) I would expect them to experience the same video delay that is being discussed. I'v only read about one person on this forum complaining about this.

It is unacceptable. If when using HDMI you should be able to use the optical out on the tv to pass the full channel audio to a receiver. The speakers on these tvs are a waste of space and shouldn't be there to start with. Why any of these manufacturers think that people spend 2-4k on a hdtv and then use the internal speakers for their home theaters is beyond me.

Some signals will require more video processing than others.

If this were 3-4 years ago I'd agree with that. But not today in this age of extremely fast processors for stuff like this. There should be no delay.

People that are dealing with delay now how do you have it setup so you get around it?

I plan on running hdmi out of my cable box to the tv and optical out of the cable box to my pre/pro. Same for dvd. If this setup is going to introduce delay I'm going to have to rethink my whole purchase. Either that or not use hdmi at all and run everything via component and optical to the pre/pro first then just one run of component to the tv. Defeats the purpose of having hdmi.

Lip Sync

I am still trying to figure out a way to have 5.1 surround sound with no lip sync. There is an external audio delay I can buy, but I'd rather not spend another 200 - 250.

I currently have HDMI going from the cable box to the TV, then digital optical from the TV to my receiver. We now know that the cable boxes are only sending a stereo signal out through the HDMI port. If I use the component output from the cable box to the tv, will that send a 5.1 signal that I can then route to my receiver?

If I use the component output from the cable box to the tv, will that send a 5.1 signal that I can then route to my receiver?

You still need to send audio from cable box either to tv or receiver.

If you go HDMI to tv and optical from cable to receiver how bad or is there a delay?

There are a few options:

Video:
1. HDMI from cable box to tv
2. Component from cable box to tv
3. component from cable box to receiver then to tv

Audio:
1. HDMI from cable box to tv, optical from tv to receiver
2. optical from cable box to receiver

Audio 1 won't pass more than 2 channel.

Combination of video 1 and audio 1 no lip sync problem BUT only passes 2 channel.
Video 1 and audio 2 introduces lip sync? Has anyone experienced this?
Video 2 and audio 2 lip sync problem?
Video 3 and audio 2 lip sync problem?

"If you go HDMI to tv and optical from cable to receiver how bad or is there a delay?"

There is a pretty bad delay. I can't quantify it in milliseconds, but in layman's terms, I would say it is about half a word delay.

Originally posted by mshap
"If you go HDMI to tv and optical from cable to receiver how bad or is there a delay?"

There is a pretty bad delay. I can't quantify it in milliseconds, but in layman's terms, I would say it is about half a word delay.

mshap ... can you give us a little more information. What cable box / company are you using? What is your connection (component video)? What type of material are you watching (SD, digital SD, HD)? What program or network (or all)? What is the viewing mode of the TV (normal, panorama, etc.)?

Lip sync can really get confusing, if we are not specific about where the problems are showing up.

Hmmm...not good. I'm assuming the delay is the same going from hdmi to tv from dvd player as well? (and then optical to receiver for decoding)

Guess I'm gonna have to run component from cable box and dvd player and optical from cable box and dvd player to pre/pro. Then component into tv. Then again I don't know if that will cause a delay as well. If that also causes a delay these tv's are useless to me.

If only the tv would pass whatever audio channels it got from the source out of the optical out on the tv instead of only passing 2 channel we probably wouldn't have these problems.

I'm still hoping the 68 models don't have these problems though.

Originally posted by MikeAlletto
People that are dealing with delay now how do you have it setup so you get around it?

I'm not dealing with delay because I haven't really seen it consistantly.

if it got lost in the thread and posts, let me reiterate that the only delay i've seen so far was material based (Fran dresser's show) while as far as I'm concerned, I have no sync issues (yet... knock on wood)

So, no problems for the most part on (with an example of the programming watched):
OTA direct (watched all of American Idol. singing, sync issues would be apparent)
OTA via dishnetwork811 (can't remember what I watched... at least some random Korean show on KSCI when I was trying to get the antenna tuned in the right direction. Granted, I don't speak Korean, but the lip movements matched the sound, so that's as good as it gets)
dishnetwork811 HD channels (Nimoy chatting with Shatner)
dishnetwork811 SD channels (Next American Model or whatever the model show with Tyra Banks is called)
DVD 480P (Attack of the Clones)

Set up is
Video source --component--> Yamaha5970 --component--> HLR5067
Audio source --optical--> Yamaha5970

I do not have any delay settings engaged on the yamaha. it merely serves as my video switch box on the video side.

Originally posted by MikeAlletto
You still need to send audio from cable box either to tv or receiver.

If you go HDMI to tv and optical from cable to receiver how bad or is there a delay?

There are a few options:

Video:
1. HDMI from cable box to tv
2. Component from cable box to tv
3. component from cable box to receiver then to tv

Audio:
1. HDMI from cable box to tv, optical from tv to receiver
2. optical from cable box to receiver

Audio 1 won't pass more than 2 channel.

Combination of video 1 and audio 1 only passes 2 channel.
Video 1 and audio 2 introduces lip sync? Has anyone experienced this?
Video 2 and audio 2 lip sync problem?
Video 3 and audio 2 lip sync problem?

Mike... Excellent summary. For clarity and for us folks with short memories, could you edit the first line under combinations as follows: "Combination of video 1 and audio 1 - No lip sync problem but only passes 2 channel."

This would be in line with Mike the Tech's response in vandu's post #3321 while clearly indicating a work-around for the lip sync issue that I'd like to see if anyone can verify in the real world. (If I'm wrong on this, let me know and I'll delete this post rather than add to the confusion.)

vandu, what type of video signal were you using when you experienced video lag using hdmi? any type of delay due to processing on the hdmi input would cause problems with gaming, regardless of whether you get the audio to match the video delay.

i was under the impression that the only real issues for the previous hlp series was when you ran a 480i signal to the tv, which caused a delay in processing. if the hlr causes a delay on any video signal to the hdmi input (regardless of whether it is 480p, 720p, 1080i) that would be a big problem, and contradictory to statements by samsung's steve p. (regarding elimination of lag on the hlr series) and at odds with the whole samsung hd / xbox360 marketing partnership.

Originally posted by swankdaddy7
I'm about to buy a 6168. I may end up buying an Xbox 360 and PS3. What's the bottom line impact to me that the PS3 outputs 1080p and the 6168 doesn't accept 1080p input? Significant PQ difference? Won't be 1080 at all? Is it stupid for me to buy a 6168 partly for gaming purposes rather than wait a year for 1080p input models? Thanks.

The PS3 will also output the other HD resolutions. So you don't need to worry about whether it'll work with your TV. Heck, it'll still work with your old b&w tv if you have one.

ATI says their GPU in the Xbox360 can easily do 1080P, but Microsoft is only advertising that it does 720P or 1080i. Maybe it's because right now, everyone has 720p or 1080i and they didn't want people confused and wondering if they're spanking new tv would work with it.

Originally posted by onlysublime
The PS3 will also output the other HD resolutions. So you don't need to worry about whether it'll work with your TV. Heck, it'll still work with your old b&w tv if you have one.

ATI says their GPU in the Xbox360 can easily do 1080P, but Microsoft is only advertising that it does 720P or 1080i. Maybe it's because right now, everyone has 720p or 1080i and they didn't want people confused and wondering if they're spanking new tv would work with it.

well, when specifically asked whether the xbox 360 would support 1080p, the xbox VP of hardware development stated it would not.

extreme tech interview (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1817025,00.asp)

Originally posted by aircasper
well, when specifically asked whether the xbox 360 would support 1080p, the xbox VP of hardware development stated it would not.

extreme tech interview (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1817025,00.asp)

Like displays, I wonder if there will be an upgrade that can be done a year or two down the road for the Xbox360.

Even though PS3 is going to launch in Spring of 06, and assuming those specs even hold (A lot can change between now and then), I very seriously doubt you will see many games doing 1080p in the PS3's first year.

aircasper,
I don't own a DLP TV yet. I became aware of the sync problem on the HLRxx67's after reading mshap's previous posts and decided to do some research. This article explains the problem very well. http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/AV_lip_sync_delay.html
My plans were to buy an HLR6168W, when they become availabe. I'm uncertain what my next steps will be if this problem is as bad as mshap experienced. I planned on using the HDMI inputs and the digital output prior to hearing about this problem. At the very least the capability of the digital out, when using the hDMI inputs is a letdown.

Refering to the post #23, TI uses 940x1080 chip with wobulation to achieve the 1080P resolution. Under that situation, the aspect ratio of the active pixel is not 16:9 anymore, I wonder how one can see the imagine on the screen that is still 16:9 aspect ratio. I understand the resolution of 940 that can be convert to 1920 pixel resolution with wobulation along one direction by shfting 0.5 pixel. I thought one probably needs to wobulate along both x and y directions and keep the aspect ratio the same.

I hope some one could explain to me. Thanks.

Jung

Originally posted by lin_jung
Refering to the post #23, TI uses 940x1080 chip with wobulation to achieve the 1080P resolution. Under that situation, the aspect ratio of the active pixel is not 16:9 anymore, I wonder how one can see the imagine on the screen that is still 16:9 aspect ratio. I understand the resolution of 940 that can be convert to 1920 pixel resolution with wobulation along one direction by shfting 0.5 pixel. I thought one probably needs to wobulate along both x and y directions and keep the aspect ratio the same.

I hope some one could explain to me. Thanks.

Jung

If you are truly interested in the details of wobulation, I would recommend that you read through these two threads:

Why TI has rotated the mirrors (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=534863&highlight=wobulation)
Wobulation vs. Tilt development (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=534177&highlight=wobulation)

Originally posted by lin_jung
Refering to the post #23, TI uses 940x1080 chip with wobulation to achieve the 1080P resolution. Under that situation, the aspect ratio of the active pixel is not 16:9 anymore, I wonder how one can see the imagine on the screen that is still 16:9 aspect ratio. I understand the resolution of 940 that can be convert to 1920 pixel resolution with wobulation along one direction by shfting 0.5 pixel. I thought one probably needs to wobulate along both x and y directions and keep the aspect ratio the same.

I hope some one could explain to me. Thanks.

Jung

I'm not sure what you mean by the phrase "aspect ratio of the active pixel, but this article indicates that wobulation does occur on both the x and y axes: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zdext/is_200406/ai_ziff129182. (See second page.)

I plan on the 6168 also. I already knew about the hdmi and optical out on the tv, but was under the impression that this lip sync problem would not be there on these new models since the samsung rep said video game systems would not encounter a delay. I figured since that problem has been solved so must the other. Its all about processing speed. Process the video fast enough and there isn't a problem in bypassing the tv for audio.

Originally posted by donb1948
I'm not sure what you mean by the phrase "aspect ratio of the active pixel, but this article indicates that wobulation does occur on both the x and y axes: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zdext/is_200406/ai_ziff129182. (See second page.)

The wobulation that HP is using in their upcoming sets is two axis wobulation. TI is only using one axis of movement. See the attached document from TI on SmoothPicture (TI wobulation).

I was told the lip sync problem was fixed with the HLP series. So good luck on the HLR's!

Originally posted by aircasper
well, when specifically asked whether the xbox 360 would support 1080p, the xbox VP of hardware development stated it would not.

extreme tech interview (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1817025,00.asp)

ATI designed the graphics chip and said that it can do 1080P. Now, if they had control of the design from generation to output, it should be able to do 1080P. But if Microsoft gave the video output job to another company, that's another issue. For example, my notebook's GPU outputs 32-bit color but the crappy TV output "intelligently" converts all output to 16-bit color so even though Windows is saying that the system is displaying 32-bit color, I actually only see 16-bit color on the TV (16-bit color can look awful sometimes) while simultaneously seeing 32-bit color on the LCD. I had to look up the schematics/specifications of all the chips to find this out! I kept switching drivers to no avail and it turns out it was a hardware issue.

And we have to be careful of stats especially since the release is months away and can change. At this point, I see that Microsoft can only change the size of the hard drive, the optical drive (possibly subbing a HD-DVD drive), and possibly

ATI says that the GPU can do 96 billion shader ops per second while Microsoft is claiming 48 billion shader ops per second. Now that seems to be a big discrepancy. I'm not sure about trusting information from management. Management people are usually nontechnical, and they end up regurgitating info from the technical staff, often messing up in the process. I'd rather trust the Microsoft, ATI, IBM, and SIS engineers actually building it.

Originally posted by UCSB
mshap ... can you give us a little more information. What cable box / company are you using? What is your connection (component video)? What type of material are you watching (SD, digital SD, HD)? What program or network (or all)? What is the viewing mode of the TV (normal, panorama, etc.)?

Lip sync can really get confusing, if we are not specific about where the problems are showing up.

I have Time Warner Cable in Houston. They provided me with a Scientific Atlanta HD-DVR. The model number is 8300. I have mostly beenw atching digital SD and HD. The viewing mode is normal.

I am using HDMI from the cable box to the TV. Digital out from the TV to the receiver.

I originally had the audio going out from the cable box directly to the receiver. The good news is that I had 5.1 surround sound. The bad news is that I had a bad lip sync issue. The issue went away when I sent the audio from the TV to the receiver. However, I lost 5.1 surround sound.

I forgot to mention that I am not experiencing any lip sync issues with my DVD player.

I have a 5-year old Sony progressive scan DVD player.

Video is going to the TV through component cables.
Audio is going directly to my receiver through the digital optical cable.

Originally posted by mshap
I forgot to mention that I am not experiencing any lip sync issues with my DVD player.

I have a 5-year old Sony progressive scan DVD player.

Video is going to the TV through component cables.
Audio is going directly to my receiver through the digital optical cable.

our experiences with component matches then. seems like the sync problems are limited to the HDMI domain.

the new samsung dlp's are at teh stores, i know my store has it in the back but hasn't put it out yet

I am actually thinking of selling my HLR5688 for local pick up here in Miami when Samsung delivers it I guess in June or late May. I am thinking of picking up a projector instead.

Originally posted by bhchan
our experiences with component matches then. seems like the sync problems are limited to the HDMI domain.

Another possible explanation would be that the problem is on the source end (cable box vs. DVD), not the input end (HDMI vs. component). To eliminate that possibility, mshap could try switching the cable box to the component input and seeing if the sync issue still occurs.

If the issue really is HDMI vs. component, that seems weird. I don't actually know much about HDMI--is there some extra decoding that the TV has to do for the HDMI input compared to the analog component signal? It would be kind of ridiculous if that processing were so complex as to cause lag.

mshap, what happens if you go component from cable box to tv, and optical from cable box to receiver? You'll then keep your 5.1 but will you have sync problems? I have the same dvr box. If I have to use component from cable box its not that big of a deal.

I wonder how HDMI from a dvd player to tv with optical from dvd player to receiver works. If there is no sync problem with that then I would blame the cable box. If there is a sync problem then it definitely is the tv.

Originally posted by mshap
I have Time Warner Cable in Houston. They provided me with a Scientific Atlanta HD-DVR. The model number is 8300. I have mostly beenw atching digital SD and HD. The viewing mode is normal.

I am using HDMI from the cable box to the TV. Digital out from the TV to the receiver.

I originally had the audio going out from the cable box directly to the receiver. The good news is that I had 5.1 surround sound. The bad news is that I had a bad lip sync issue. The issue went away when I sent the audio from the TV to the receiver. However, I lost 5.1 surround sound.

It would be interesting to connect your cable to the set and use the internal tuner and see if you are still getting the sync issue. You could output audio to your receiver via the digital optical connection and see if you are getting 5.1. How can you be sure that the SA box or your cable company is not introducing the sync issue?

Thanks for the tips of wobulation technology. Is the approach at TI the same as the one at HP? With wobulation,the panel mirrors 1920x1080/2 is needed if only wobulation is along only the x-direction as my understanding. That leads to the native resolution of 960x1080 mirrors. The ratio of 960/1080 is not 16:9 anymore unless the mirror size is designed differently. Is my argument correct? Also, so far as I know, TI projection TVs with HD3 chips wobulate only one direction and HP's as announced is working 2x wobulation. It means along both x and y directions. I feel something is still missing------
Thanks for your additional comments in advance.
Jung

What is the mirror count on both Hd4 and Hd2+ chips?
1280 X 720 or 640 X 360?

Most of you would have seen my previous post on
HD4 chip (HLR4667) v HD2+ chip(HLR4677):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5645893#post5645893

Questions:-

Does the new DLP TI chip used in HLR4667 (with smooth picture
technology, I think it is called by some as HD4) use diamond pattern
(wobulated) and does it have an internal resolution of half the size
of 1280 X 720 mirrors on the DLP chip, which means only 640 X 360
internal mirrors or is it a full mirror chip (1280 X 720 internal mirrors like
Hd2+ chip and with full mirrors does it also do some wobulation to achieve smooth picture).

I notice that the picture shown by Hd4 has some rough grainy look(especially
on people's faces, edges of objects) when compared to Hd2+ chip (has sharp
and clear edges but little darker faces of people) based DLP TVs when
viewing the same scene simultaneously on both of them. Will this
edges go away if we increase the sharpness/CR parameters on the
HD4 DLP TV? Any other calibration techniques to use?


Also I believe this coarse grainy edges may still continue in the new
TI chips (xHD*) with smooth picture even though they are 1080p and supposed to be showing higher resolution, since it looks like it is an
inherent principle of how the wobulation/smooth picture technolgy is
handling the picture as per my understanding below:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=534177&perpage=20&highlight=wobulation&pagenumber=3