lin-jung, baba160,

It is believed that the scheme used by TI for wobulation is different from that used by HP. So far we have only seen the demo sets from HP so there is no real data regarding what HP is doing. The only thing we do know is that there are patents applied for by HP that talk about 2-axis wobulation using mirrors in a rectangular array. The HP press releases for their sets more or less refer to this. As far as the 16:9 grid thing goes, spend some time looking at the posts by kiwishred in the Why TI rotated the mirrors thread linked above. The other thing that may help you is to stop thinking about each mirror as being one pixel. Instead think of each diamond shaped mirror as making up one square pixel in the middle of the diamond shape plus the left over parts making up portions of another pixel. Again try to follow kiwishred's arguments (he is an extremely sharp guy).

All of the current TI wobulated chips use the diamond pattern. All of the chips use the full number of mirrors in one direction and 1/2 in the other. Thus you have 960x1080 and 640x720. HD2+ is 1280x720.

None of this is easy to get you mind around and there is not much hard information. Good luck! :D

Originally posted by MikeAlletto
mshap, what happens if you go component from cable box to tv, and optical from cable box to receiver? You'll then keep your 5.1 but will you have sync problems? I have the same dvr box. If I have to use component from cable box its not that big of a deal.

I wonder how HDMI from a dvd player to tv with optical from dvd player to receiver works. If there is no sync problem with that then I would blame the cable box. If there is a sync problem then it definitely is the tv.

Mike and UCSB - I will try both of your suggestions and let post the results. Please be patient. I have busy weekend. It may be a day or 2 before I can try these suggestions out.

I see most of these lip sync complaints are with digital cable. Let me tell ya I see the same thing with my CRT TV on digital cable, dishnetwork, and DirecTV. And I see occasional, although increasingly rare, lip sync issues with DVD. I'm not so sure the TV is the problem.

some of the lip sync issues may be due to the cable or satelittle boxes are out putting stereo from the HDMI cable and the tv is passing this through.

otherwise why even have an optical out on the tv?


quick way to test that would be:

try hdmi out of a dvd player to tv and then connect optical out of the tv to the receiver to see if these tvs can pass a 5.1 signal

This recently raised lip sync issue is quite frustrating to me.

If I can use a Sony Wega 24" Standard 4:3 Television, and not have any audio problems at all (sure I'm using component connection) and this is a $350 USD TV.... Why can't a $4500 USD TV do the same thing?

I'd love to use the two HDMI ports on the TV, is it that much inferior of a technology or what? Isn't the whole point of using say HDMI on your cable box to your TV's HDMI port - to avoid a D/A translation?

I'm astounded that a samsung tech considered this a "minor issue"....

So if I get this big fancy 1080p television, is this my only option?

Video:
Cable Box --component--> Receiver
PS2 --component--> Receiver
DVD --component--> Receiver
Receiver --component--> TV

Audio:
Cable Box --optical--> Receiver
PS2 --optical--> Receiver
DVD --optical--> Receiver

With everything on component, will I still enjoy the best picture possible? And what? I now have 2 wasted HDMI ports on the TV?

- D

Originally posted by shanec
I see most of these lip sync complaints are with digital cable. Let me tell ya I see the same thing with my CRT TV on digital cable, dishnetwork, and DirecTV. And I see occasional, although increasingly rare, lip sync issues with DVD. I'm not so sure the TV is the problem.

I suggest an owner check the delay by spliting the video signal between the DLP and a CRT, let the DLP upconvert the signal and let both the un-delayed audio play through your Receiver and the delayed audio play through the TV speakers. Echos and noticable difference in audio delays will reveal the extent of the DLP video delay. This should be more reliable than testing with a videogame machine.

this info on the lip synch is disturbing. i thought it was with only 480i sources but that doesn't seem to be the case... if i have it hooked up awith components and optical audio in the following way

ps2audio/video->receiver->tv

and xbox video->TV
xbox audio ->reciever

would i have audio lag on an hlp5085?

Originally posted by Daphoid
This recently raised lip sync issue is quite frustrating to me.

If I can use a Sony Wega 24" Standard 4:3 Television, and not have any audio problems at all (sure I'm using component connection) and this is a $350 USD TV.... Why can't a $4500 USD TV do the same thing?

I'd love to use the two HDMI ports on the TV, is it that much inferior of a technology or what? Isn't the whole point of using say HDMI on your cable box to your TV's HDMI port - to avoid a D/A translation?

I'm astounded that a samsung tech considered this a "minor issue"....

So if I get this big fancy 1080p television, is this my only option?

Video:
Cable Box --component--> Receiver
PS2 --component--> Receiver
DVD --component--> Receiver
Receiver --component--> TV

Audio:
Cable Box --optical--> Receiver
PS2 --optical--> Receiver
DVD --optical--> Receiver

With everything on component, will I still enjoy the best picture possible? And what? I now have 2 wasted HDMI ports on the TV?

- D


I don't get what all the fuss is about. Aren't there delay settings on the receiver in order to adjust for this sort of thing?

No audio lag on my HLP5085w and the picture(calibrated)is stunning,even the calibrator commented on it and said it was the best DLP picture he has seen, he also said and his exact words were "as close to plasma without being plasma" actually now that I think about it I hope thats a compliment;) You can get the 5085 now for a steal.I was gonna wait for the 1080p models but I got the 5085w for $2999.99Canadian =$2385 US for the amount of money I saved and the uncerainty of how much better the 1080p models will be over what I have now.The picture is absolutely crystal clear so im sure it can be better but nothing that is gonna warrant spending top dollar just cause its 1080p with the same chip set.Thats just my opinion Im sure others would disagree and want 1080p no matter what and thats fine, but I will wait until their is a 1080p signal being broadcasted and the tv can accept it without having to up-convert to 1080p.The only flaw I find in the 5085w is tiny smudges at the bottom of the screen when the set is warming up then after a few minutes they are gone.Either way 1080p or 720p the picture is incredible with the hd2+ chip.

Don't blame Samsung or the cable company for HDMI not passing 5.1 audio.
This article explains the issue quite well. Make sure you read page 2.

http://news.designtechnica.com/talkback45.html

Originally posted by TVisEVIL
I don't get what all the fuss is about. Aren't there delay settings on the receiver in order to adjust for this sort of thing?

I have an older receiver that probably does not have a delay in it. Even if it did, it probably wouldn't matter since some shows have a worse lip sync issue than others.

I've said this before, U]it is not the fault of the TV[/U]. The problem exists when you send the video to the TV and the audio to your receiver. To correct this, you have to send both audio and video to the TV, then route the audio to the receiver. The next problem is that the cable boxes are not sending 5.1 through the HDMI ports. Too bad the TV does not have a digital optical in on the back of the TV.

Just a heads up that Toshiba just confirmed (as if we didn't already know) that the 1080p set should be called xHD4.

They have a press release about a seemingly very competitive line of sets (they moved the speakers to the bottom and ALL sets have 2 HDMI!).

Just read that press release as well. I think it is also noteworthy that the 56" TheaterWide model is listed at a full $1000 less in terms of MSRP than the Samsung Models, and the Cinema Series is $700 less than the Samsung Models. Yes, I know that MSRP does not necessarily mean much, but it very well may force Samsung to lower their prices given the fact that Toshiba TVs are scheduled for July to September release dates, which is pretty close to the Samsung releases.

I think I might be willing to wait an extra month for the 56" TheaterWide set if it will save me $1000. 1080p at a 720 price that will probably be under $3K for 56" (If I assume a 15% discount to MSRP). I can live with that.

Originally posted by Clorox
Just read that press release as well. I think it is also noteworthy that the 56" Theaterwide model is listed at a full $1000 less in terms of MSRP than the Samsung Models, and the Cinema Series is $700 less than the Samsung Models. Yes, I know that MSRP does not necessarily mean much, but it very well may force Samsung to lower their prices given the fact that Toshiba TVs are scheduled for July to September release dates, which is pretty close to the Samsung releases


MSRP means little: HLR 5668W's are up on the web in several spots for pre-orders in the low 3's, and will have to drop some from there by the fall to be competitive i would imagine.

Originally posted by SammiK
MSRP means little: HLR 5668W's are up on the web in several spots for pre-orders in the low 3's, and will have to drop some from there by the fall to be competitive i would imagine.

I would love to see where you're finding preorders for the 5668 in the low 3's. I just spent about 20 minutes looking and could not find anyone that came even close to what you just said. Agreed, MSRP doesn't mean much, but there's no way you're finding a 56" sammy 1080p in the "low 3's". Please PM me with a link, because I'll buy one in a heartbeat.

Originally posted by Clorox
I would love to see where you're finding preorders for the 5668 in the low 3's. I just spent about 20 minutes looking and could not find anyone that came even close to what you just said. Agreed, MSRP doesn't mean much, but there's no way you're finding a 56" sammy 1080p in the "low 3's". Please PM me with a link, because I'll buy one in a heartbeat.


Ummm... Yes, way! and i would wager they'll be UNDER 3K by the fall! Just do a "Google" for "Samsung 1080P":)

Don't blame Samsung or the cable company for HDMI not passing 5.1 audio.
This article explains the issue quite well. Make sure you read page 2.

Thanks for the info. This does explain the HDMI situation very well. However, it does not mention the delay problem. If you by pass HDMI for audio, does this eliminate the delay problem?

Originally posted by Gator1
Don't blame Samsung or the cable company for HDMI not passing 5.1 audio.
This article explains the issue quite well. Make sure you read page 2.

Thanks for the info. This does explain the HDMI situation very well. However, it does not mention the delay problem. If you by pass HDMI for audio, does this eliminate the delay problem?

Yes. I have found that it eliminates the delay problem, but you lose the 5.1 Dolby Digital.

Originally posted by mshap
Mike and UCSB - I will try both of your suggestions and let post the results. Please be patient. I have busy weekend. It may be a day or 2 before I can try these suggestions out.

I just connected the cable box to the TV using component cables and ran the audio from the cable box to my receiver. I had the same video delay as I did using HDMI.

I'm starting to think more and more that HDMI is still useless. If its not lip sync problems its not passing the full audio stream. I read that article before and was hoping that these new tv's would just pass on the full signal, but it may just be the sources not passing the full signal.

Thanks for the info. This does explain the HDMI situation very well. However, it does not mention the delay problem. If you by pass HDMI for audio, does this eliminate the delay problem?

It probably won't. You mean just using HDMI for video and routing audio directly to receiver from cable box (for example)?

I'm thinking the only way to really get around the sync problem is to send component and optical into a receiver, then component from receiver into the tv. I was really hoping to use hdmi this round, but i guess it isn't going to happen. My pre/pro supports hidef component switching so I'll be ok on that front. There are many reports of component still looking better than hdmi anyways.

I'll use the cable box in passthru mode to pass the native signal and not convert it, then let the tv upscale it to 1080p. With the SA hd cable boxes and hdmi it upconverts for you, there is no passthru over the hdmi output so this really isn't as bad as it could be.

Originally posted by SammiK
Ummm... Yes, way! and i would wager they'll be UNDER 3K by the fall! Just do a "Google" for "Samsung 1080P":)

Did you even take a second to look at the links that come up on Google?

Yeah, like I'm going to buy a television from retailers that have ratings of 3.7 and 3.2, respectively on Pricegrabber.... What are you smoking?

god only knows how much they cost for shipping, or if it will ever be in stock. Plus, I am pretty sure the two hits that come up on google at those same prices are the same store. Only a fool wouldn't be able to tell that. They have the same price for all of their products. Plus, NO RETURNS AT ALL.

Please... I think it is obvious when I say show me the price below 3500 that I am referring to a reputable dealer that can actually deliver. Plus, those places are in New York, so that's out of the question for me since there is no way I am paying tax on my TV.

I just connected the cable box to the TV using component cables and ran the audio from the cable box to my receiver. I had the same video delay as I did using HDMI.

What about cable box to receiver for both audio and video, then component from receiver to tv? In other words route absolutely everything through receiver first, then just have one component connection from receiver to tv. Basically tv turns into a monitor and thats it.

Originally posted by MikeAlletto
What about cable box to receiver for both audio and video, then component from receiver to tv? In other words route absolutely everything through receiver first, then just have one component connection from receiver to tv. Basically tv turns into a monitor and thats it.

The theory is that the video delay is due to the TV's own internal video processing. So running everything through a receiver first won't help--the TV will still take extra time to process the receiver's video output, so the audio coming out of the receiver will be ahead of the TV.

Running everything through the TV (presumably) eliminates the lag because the TV itself keeps the audio in sync with the post-processed video. An external receiver wouldn't know how much to delay it (unless you dial in a fixed delay, which may or may not exactly match the TV's lag).

I would imagine if you use a Cable Card instead of a STB the Digital Audio out from the TV would be 5.1 and there would be no Lip Synch issue. Has anyone tested this?

Rich

So in other words there is no way around the audio lag without spending hundreds of dollars more. Either that or put up with 2.0 audio because the tv doesn't pass multichannel.

So what is the point in owning a $4000 tv that has audio lag?

I guess I've just pushed back my purchase until either samsung solves this or some other manufacturer's model doesn't exhibit this glitch.

Originally posted by MikeAlletto
What about cable box to receiver for both audio and video, then component from receiver to tv? In other words route absolutely everything through receiver first, then just have one component connection from receiver to tv. Basically tv turns into a monitor and thats it.

Unfortunately, my receiver is old enough to not have component connections or I would try it.

My 2nd test was to take the cable box completely out of the equation. I connected the cable directly to the TV from the wall. I have the digital out from the TV to my receiver.

There is no video lag. Everything is in sync.

So, there is a new dilema. I rarely watch live TV. Almost everything I watch is from the DVR. If I get a cable card and split the signal coming in from the wall (1 cable going directly to the TV and one to the HD-DVR), will that significantly reduce my signal? Will my picture quality suffer?

The solution will allow me to watch live TV with 5.1 dolby digital with everythig in sync. I will lose the 5.1 if I want to watch a show I recorded while keeping everything in sync.

On a side note, if I do this, I'll never be able to teach my girlfriend how this all works. :)

Originally posted by MikeAlletto
So in other words there is no way around the audio lag without spending hundreds of dollars more. Either that or put up with 2.0 audio because the tv doesn't pass multichannel.

So what is the point in owning a $4000 tv that has audio lag?

I guess I've just pushed back my purchase until either samsung solves this or some other manufacturer's model doesn't exhibit this glitch.

The poster's DVD player doesn't have any lag issues. This suggests that the TV has to work harder to convert the output of the cable box for whatever reason. Also, other posters have reported no lag with various sources. So it sounds like a hit-or-miss problem--depending on the quality of your input source, you may or may not get lag.

It would be interesting to find out if other DLP TVs have the same problem with the same input sources, but it's doubtful many people here happen to have two DLPs from different manufacturers...

We haven't confirmed ANY of the new 1080p Sammy's have this audio lag, have we?

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
We haven't confirmed ANY of the new 1080p Sammy's have this audio lag, have we?

That would be difficult to do before someone actually buys one :)

My 2nd test was to take the cable box completely out of the equation. I connected the cable directly to the TV from the wall. I have the digital out from the TV to my receiver.

Does the tv then pass the 5.1 signal since you don't have the cable box in between? If so this would mean that the cable boxes implementation of hdmi doesn't pass the 5.1 audio signal even though the tv can pass it on correctly. So if SA ever fixes their hdmi implementation you could still run hdmi out of the cable box to the tv. Then digital out of the tv to the receiver to keep hdmi and keep 5.1?

Originally posted by Daphoid
With everything on component, will I still enjoy the best picture possible? - D

Yes. I posted my 3 days worth of impressions here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5652316#post5652316

Component and optical to receiver works well... only the PS2 gave me problems, until I chalk it up to "um, the PS2 isn't a HD machine, dummy"

Originally posted by MikeAlletto
Does the tv then pass the 5.1 signal since you don't have the cable box in between? If so this would mean that the cable boxes implementation of hdmi doesn't pass the 5.1 audio signal even though the tv can pass it on correctly. So if SA every fixes their hdmi implementation you could still run hdmi out of the cable box to the tv. Then digital out of the tv to the receiver to keep hdmi and keep 5.1?

There are 2 sides of the equation. Yes, it would help if SA upgraded their equipment to allow 5.1 to pass out of their boxes. Even if that happens, does anybody know if these TV's will accept 5.1 through the HDMI.

Another solution would be for SA to add a 1394 output. That will pass Dolby Digital 5.1, but not DTS.

Another thing you might want to try keeping the cable box in the loop to get 5.1 out of the box via hdmi and the tv:


The HDMI interface will automatically configure the audio output for a
format supported by the television. Because not all TVs support a Dolby
Digital input, the HDMI interface may automatically select a 2-channel
stereo audio configuration instead of Dolby Digital. When the output is
configured for 2-channel audio, this configuration is carried over to the
other digital audio outputs of the 8300HD. This configuration prevents your
home theater system or Dolby Digital decoder from providing the full Dolby
Digital surround sound effect.

On the 8300HD, you may override the automatic selection of audio by the HDMI
interface by completing the following steps.

1. Press SETTINGS twice on the remote control to open the General Settings
menu.
2. Press MOVE UP or MOVE DOWN to select the option Audio: Digital Out.
3. Press MOVE RIGHT to select Dolby Digital. This setting will send Dolby
Digital audio to the HDMI, DIGITAL AUDIO OUT, and OPTICAL AUDIO OUT
connectors on the 8300HD.

Mike,

I've tried this. It doesn't work. When you select Dolby Digital, it only sends the audio to the digital audio out. It does not send the audio through HDMI.

Mark

This is a quote from Samsung's frequently asked questions.
"Lip sync Problem
If the sound on your DLP TV is out of sync with your picture and the TV is not connected to a home theater system, a Samsung technician can adjust the sound sync function on the TV so that the sound and picture are in sync.

To arrange a service call to adjust the sound sync function, call Samsung Customer Care at 1-800-SAMSUNG (1-800-726-7864).

If the sound on your DLP TV is out of sync with your picture and you are using a home theater system (HTS), things become more difficult. In many setups, the television signal comes into a set top box. The set top box audio output is connected directly to the HTS and the set top box video output is connected directly to the TV. Consequently, the audio portion of the signal is sent directly to the HTS without passing through the TV, and the video portion of the signal is sent directly to the TV without passing through the HTS. The two signals are separated and cannot be synced by adjusting the sound sync function in the TV."

If your system is set up as described above, you still may be able to resolve the sound sync problem. Check your HTS user's manual to see if your HTS has a Sound Delay function. If it does, you may be able to adjust the Sound Delay so that the sound and picture are in sync.

If your HTS does not have a Sound Delay function, you may be able to purchase an audio delay device that you can put into your system between the set top box and the HTS. You should be able to adjust the audio delay device so that the sound and picture are in sync.

Does the delay problem happen with all dlp's, or is this a problem unique to the HLR series?

Originally posted by MikeAlletto
What about cable box to receiver for both audio and video, then component from receiver to tv? In other words route absolutely everything through receiver first, then just have one component connection from receiver to tv. Basically tv turns into a monitor and thats it.

This works well.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5642076#post5642076

and

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5647735#post5647735

no sync issues unless the sync problem is at the source.

Originally posted by Scurbs16
Does the delay problem happen with all dlp's, or is this a problem unique to the HLR series?

some of it is at the source. you don't notice problems on a smaller tv. Heck, SD looks ultra-sharp on my 19" CRT, but I have to sit 3 feet away.

some of it is because of DNR and/or DNIe, which is a samsung thing, but other HDTVs have similar issues when upconverting.

Samsung's DNIe seems to be slower doing 480i -> 720p, which is what most of the current buzz about sync issue is about. (well, other than those whose getting shoddy source material and only noticing it because the TV is so big.)

If you feed it good clean input (HD from satellite via component, 480p DVD via component) you won't have any problems with the HLRs.

Yeah bhchan, I just went back and reread that. This is how I've always setup my systems, using the tv as only a monitor and routing everything through an av receiver or pre/pro. This whole thing has me scared though to pull the trigger on a 6168 once the powerbuy is announced. I guess if it doesn't work as I expect it to I can always use the 30 day return policy.

I was all set on buying the HLR5667W but now that Toshiba has just come out with their announcement of their 1080p models with MSRP close to that of the Samsung 720p models, I'm going to have to wait. I hope that'll force Sammy to lower it's prices.

Originally posted by blackdiamond
I was all set on buying the HLR5667W but now that Toshiba has just come out with their announcement of their 1080p models with MSRP close to that of the Samsung 720p models, I'm going to have to wait. I hope that'll force Sammy to lower it's prices.

The Sammy 1080P "street prices" are already a couple hundred bucks below the Toshiba MSRP pricing. Of course, the Toshiba actual "street prices" will be the typical 15 to 20% below MSRP shortly after they become available, i'm sure. :D

Originally posted by blackdiamond
I was all set on buying the HLR5667W but now that Toshiba has just come out with their announcement of their 1080p models with MSRP close to that of the Samsung 720p models, I'm going to have to wait. I hope that'll force Sammy to lower it's prices.

Probably all you'll have to wait for is Samsung's reaction to Toshiba's pricing...if capitalism works, you should reap the benefits soon. Of course, during the time that the Toshiba's aren't on the street, Samsung will still be able to command their prices.

Originally posted by profjoe
Just a heads up that Toshiba just confirmed (as if we didn't already know) that the 1080p set should be called xHD4.

They have a press release about a seemingly very competitive line of sets (they moved the speakers to the bottom and ALL sets have 2 HDMI!).

where can i find this press release?

Originally posted by aircasper
where can i find this press release?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=541611

Toshiba is Back With 1080p With Introduction of New "TALEN(TM) X" DLP(TM) Projection TV Models (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/05-19-2005/0003639403&EDATE=)

thanks for the toshiba links! :)

Can somebody post a link to online site which sells the Samsung 1080p with this low "streetprice"? If that's not allowed her, pm me please.
Thanks.

Any one could give an answer for the mirror count on both HD2+ and HD3?
This was asked by Baba160. I think the mirror for HD2+ is 1280x720 but I am not sure what is total mirror count for HD4, 640x360. However the screen resolution for HD4 chip unit is 1280x720. Am I right?
Jung

HD2+ mirror count is 1280x720; screen pixels is 1280x720
HD3/4 mirror count is 640x720; screen pixels is 1280x720

Thanks for the mirror count for HD2,3 and 4.
However, for HD3, 640x720 mirrors, the aspect ratio of 640/720 is not the same as 16:9 anymore. Is this correct?
For the dlp projection units with screen resolution at 1280x720 by using HD3 chip and wobulation along one direction. Could you explain to me how to see the 1280x720 screen resolution image? Thanks.

Jung

Go to these posts and follow the link/attachment:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5649310#post5649310

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5649347#post5649347

In the second link, read the attachement on SmoothPicture. This is TI's explaination of how wobulation works.

Originally posted by blackdiamond
Can somebody post a link to online site which sells the Samsung 1080p with this low "streetprice"? If that's not allowed here, pm me please.
Thanks.

Just do a "google" for Samsung 1080P and you'll find them yourself:)

Originally posted by lin_jung
Thanks for the mirror count for HD2,3 and 4.
However, for HD3, 640x720 mirrors, the aspect ratio of 640/720 is not the same as 16:9 anymore. Is this correct?

It's the aspect ratio of the image on the screen that counts. The "wobble" uses each mirror to create two pixels and the result is a true 16x9 (1280x720) aspect ratio on the screen.

Originally posted by schaffer970
Toshiba is Back With 1080p With Introduction of New "TALEN(TM) X" DLP(TM) Projection TV Models (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/05-19-2005/0003639403&EDATE=)

I think I heard that all of the newer 1080P DLP's that are coming out are going to use the wobilated chips, but is this true for these Toshiba's also?

Yes, all consumer 1080P DLP's use wobulated chips.

Originally posted by CGULL999
I think I heard that all of the newer 1080P DLP's that are coming out are going to use the wobilated chips, but is this true for these Toshiba's also?

All DLPs are produced by TI. TI does not produce a 1920x1080 DLP Array for consumers. Thus all 1080p DLPs do and will for the foreseable future use 'wobulation' or SP or whatever term HP's lawyers want us to use.

Originally posted by htwaits
It's the aspect ratio of the image on the screen that counts. The "wobble" uses each mirror to create two pixels and the result is a true 16x9 (1280x720) aspect ratio on the screen.

If the pixels are square (turned 45 degrees), how can a half pixel shift of a mirror create a 16x9 image from an 8x9 array of mirrors?

Not saying that it doesn't, obviously, but that is something that I have never seen explained.

At most, I could see a 641x720 image.

Originally posted by Shape
If the pixels are square (turned 45 degrees), how can a half pixel shift of a mirror create a 16x9 image from an 8x9 array of mirrors?

Not saying that it doesn't, obviously, but that is something that I have never seen explained.

At most, I could see a 641x720 image.

The array of mirrors is indeed 16x9 geometrically not 8x9 as a non-rotated array would be.

You could see that the mirrors are placed like the red squares on a checkerboard, all diagonal from one another. Now imagine rotating all these squares by 45 degrees and expanding them so that they just touch. You will see that we have NOT changed the aspect ratio of the squares OR the checkerboard but we have covered the entire board with only the red squares (except the border area).

The beauty of mathematics.

I saw a 67 series HLR at Best Buy today and was impressed with both the picture and the cabinet. I liked how the corners of the cabinet were rounded nicely. I am waiting for the 68 series so I was more interested in the cabinet than the picture.

I asked for a measuring tape, got one but had to listen to 'we have the dimensions listed', to which I responded that most times those numbers were wrong. I then pointed out to the blue shirt that the dimensions they had listed WERE wrong. He was very interested and measured himself to see that yes they were wrong. After that he didn't bother me any more. The measurements did however match up fairly well with the dimensions we have on post 1.

Originally posted by John_Jones_CA
The array of mirrors is indeed 16x9 geometrically not 8x9 as a non-rotated array would be.

You could see that the mirrors are placed like the red squares on a checkerboard, all diagonal from one another. Now imagine rotating all these squares by 45 degrees and expanding them so that they just touch. You will see that we have NOT changed the aspect ratio of the squares OR the checkerboard but we have covered the entire board with only the red squares (except the border area).


Boy do I need a picture. :)

Originally posted by Shape
Boy do I need a picture. :)

Part [1/3]
Split up due to image size limitations... I'm not hosting these myself :)

This is only shown for a 'square' checkerboard it is up to you to convince yourself that it holds the same for a 16x9 checkerboard.

Part 2/3

Part 3/3

Perhaps 'Shape' should re-think his nickname :)

It appears that at least two Toshiba DLP TVs can pass a Dolby®Digital signal through their HDMI inputs (2 HDMI inputs) and out their digital audio out (optical). The information can be found in the owner’s manual for the 52HMX94 and the 62HMX94. These sets have been out since October.

Mshap can not get his Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300 DVR to send a 5.1 channel audio signal through the HDMI input to his HLRxx67W.

The “Getting Started” guide for the Explorer 8300 DVR states the following:

“Important Note Regarding the HDMI Interface
The High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) is an all-digital audio and video interface. HDMI supports standard, enhanced, or high-definition video, plus digital audio.

Some HDTVs do not contain circuitry to decode Dolby Digital formatted content. If you connect your DVR to an HDTV that cannot support Dolby®Digital audio, the HDMI interface instructs the DVR to switch its audio outputs to 2-channel PCM audio (to be compatible with the HDTV)…”

The two Toshibas listed above have Dolby® Virtual SRS® TruSurround audio technologies built in, which play through the TV’s speakers. I assume that because it has a Dolby®Digital decoder built into the TV the HDMI interface will allow the Dolby®Digital signal to pass.

I hope the HLRxx68s will have something similar to the Toshibas. Having two HDMI inputs with only half the function will be very disappointing.

Ok, I can see that now. And then since the squares are so much larger in that final image, you can shrink the 16:9 DMD down and get a device with squares that are the same size as the red squares in the first image. But the DMD would only have half the area of the original. The yield increases a ton as a result. Hence the win.

Very cool. :) Thanks.

Originally posted by Shape
At most, I could see a 641x720 image.
Have you read the information pointed to by this message?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5654097#post5654097

Shape, now that you have the "easy" part down (one picture is worth a thousand words - thanks John_Jones_CA), you might want to look at the following thread: Why TI has rotated the mirrors (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=534863&highlight=wobulation). There are a couple of very smart people who have done a lot of work trying to figure out how wobulation works and have posted a number of simulated images that are amazing. :D

I just checked it out, thanks. Very good data there.

I still prefer pixels that aren't rotated, though. :) I do understand why they did it. I'm a microprocessor engineer, so I understand the urge to shrink chips. And a 1920x1080 DMD would probably just be way too expensive for consumer products.

anyone ask samsung or steve P if the 1080P sets will pass dolby 5.1?

anything on the owner's manuals?

this seems like a big issue to be waiting until june-july to figure out.

2 hdmi and all you get is stereo. i will again ask , why have a digital out?

Originally posted by madjimithing
anyone ask samsung or steve P if the 1080P sets will pass dolby 5.1?

anything on the owner's manuals?

this seems like a big issue to be waiting until june-july to figure out.

2 hdmi and all you get is stereo. i will again ask , why have a digital out?


Don't think the Samsungs are capable of passing Dolby 5.1. They have no built-in decoders, however i believe at least some of the upcoming Toshiba 1080P's do have decoding circuits and are capable of passing Dolby 5.1 through HDMI. Someone correct me if i am mistaken?

I would like to see a sharp picture of HD2+ and also vivid colors with variations and good contrast with deeper whites and blacks and details of HD4. If I understand correctly all the newer chips will not have the sharp 'video' look anymore (which I perfer).
Costcutting................:mad:

madjimithing:

The better question is why *not* have a digital IN. I think the digital OUT is so that the built in TUNER can send 5.1. The issue is that externally tuned things (like DVD's or HDTivo boxes) will have to send digital stuff over HDMI which will not actually send 5.1 to the Samsung (since it cannot use it ITSELF), thus it never gets the CHANCE to pass though (or at least that is my understanding from reading about this issue across about 5 different threads).

This stinks becasue it seems the only way to completely eliminate lag is to let the set sync up audio and video (by sending the signal through the TV). If this is true, the cable card should NEVER produce lag, nor should HDMI (it will strip the 5.1 though). It seems that lag shows up when you SPLIT the signal yourself in your AVR.

Joe

madjimithing
I posed the question of 5.1 passing through the HDMI inputs on the HLRxx68s to Samsung second level support on May 19th. The technician confirmed that 5.1 will not pass through on the current sets and he would check with headquarters on whether or not it will pass on the HLRxx68s. He said he would respond with an e-mail, which I will post, when and if I receive it. I'll give them a week before I follow up with another call.

I believe the fundamental issue is that HDMI is a bi-directional signal rather than just tapping into a wire as in the analog connections. This enables the HDCP handshake to authorize the set to receive a signal from the source. During this connection establishment other parameters are chosen including the number of sound channels used by the set. In this manner it is actually the source that downgrades its output to match the set's advertized capabilities. So it is just a bit more complicated than the TV being wrong. For it to function as we would expect it would have to lie to the source (may hurt its HDCP compliance) and since it doesn't have a bi-directional channel to the receiver on its audio output channels it doesn't know exactly what to say.

I blame it all on HDCP since the set is no longer just a passive entity passing the sound signal on to its downstream connection, it is an active participant in protecting the IP rights of the content's copyright holder from us nasty consumers and our crazy fair use rights.

The set could be made smart enough to advertise that its capable of 5.1 when in reality its not, but it would then at least have 5.1 available to pass elsewhere on its digital output(s). I still blame the TV.

Originally posted by shanec
The set could be made smart enough to advertise that its capable of 5.1 when in reality its not, but it would then at least have 5.1 available to pass elsewhere on its digital output(s). I still blame the TV.

I'll blame the TV too but not for passing 5.1 channel outputs. The real fault of the TV is the unacceptable amount of display lag requiring this sort of hack to begin with. By letting the TV pass the signal we are letting it delay the audio to sync with the video. Fine and dandy for static content that can be timeshifted. Get out your old videogame machines and you have a completely different story.

Correct solutions to this problem are as follows...

1. Send all video signals to TV, send all audio signals to Receiver (2 wires from every source)

2. Send all signals to Receiver and 1 video signal from Receiver to TV.

3. Send all signals to TV and 1 audio signal to Receiver.

4. Send all signals to Switcher and 1 video signal to TV and 1 audio signal to Receiver.

1 is easiest to implement and works, 2 is hard because receiver has to do video processing. 3 is equally hard because TV has to do quality audio processing (our current dilema). 4 is unnecesarily difficult, but would simplify the design of TVs and Receivers especially if the Switcher were a HTPC that could be upgraded.

This evil delay problem (still not sure how bad it is, haven't seen it) forces us to use 3 when we would like to use 1. The cause of the problem is the delay, the audio passing bug is just another symptom of the disease.

I've asked this question before, but I think the topics took a turn. This seems like a good place to ask again.

Basically, I want my cake and eat it too. I want the DVR, but I also want 5.1 surround sound. If I split the signal coming in from the wall with one cable going to the DVR so I can record shows and another cable going to the TV and use a cable card, how will this affect my picture quality? Will the signal be significantly diminished?

Originally posted by mshap
I've asked this question before, but I think the topics took a turn. This seems like a good place to ask again.

Basically, I want my cake and eat it too. I want the DVR, but I also want 5.1 surround sound. If I split the signal coming in from the wall with one cable going to the DVR so I can record shows and another cable going to the TV and use a cable card, how will this affect my picture quality? Will the signal be significantly diminished?

This will typically work well. If there is any effect it will show up first in the lowest channel (channel 2 typically) and work it's way up the channel line-up. So you split the signal and then check channel 2, if it is OK, all of your remaining channels will be OK.

It appears the only slim model this summer are the 77's.

Does anyone know if any of the newer techology will be encased in a 56 cabinet with the same dimensions as the 5677 (less than 50 inches wide)?

Originally posted by afd10529
Does anyone know if any of the newer techology will be encased in a 56 cabinet with the same dimensions as the 5677 (less than 50 inches wide)?
None will.

Originally posted by UCSB
This will typically work well. If there is any effect it will show up first in the lowest channel (channel 2 typically) and work it's way up the channel line-up. So you split the signal and then check channel 2, if it is OK, all of your remaining channels will be OK.

The order that the channels are sorted in the cable and the order that they are numbered in is not guaranteed to be the same. In fact, in most cases it will not be the same. When our signal was split too many times, the affected channels were spread all over the "dial". (Comcast installed a signal booster to remedy the problem.)

I really want a simple 1394 chain between all my components, but even then there is a problem. Cable boxes with 1394 output don't put their on-screen menus on the feed, which makes it useless to use as your main connection to the TV.

Using 400 (or better yet, 800 or 1600) speed 1394 for you AV "bus" interconnects would allow a pristine video feed AND a menu over/underlay that the TV or other consumer on the line (D-VHS, etc) can mix in or ignore. But that's just me pulling solutions out of the air.

I'm possibly on the verge of ordering a 4667W or 5067W model. Two types of media that are important to me, and about which I'm somewhat nervous, are video games and lower-grade DVD's, such as TV shows on DVD.

As far as gaming goes, I'm primarily interested in Xbox games in progressive scan mode, and then of course the next gen systems (Xbox 360 & PS3). From what I've been reading here, my understanding is that I should get good results on those, as opposed to the more mixed results on the 480i output of the PS2, such as potential lag. Anyone disagree with this?

What about TV shows on DVD (such as, for example, Buffy the Vampire Slayer)? Can I expect decent PQ on the playback of this sort of thing? Sorry if that's been discussed already in this thread - I'm not sure what keywords I should use to search on this.

Originally posted by AkaStp


However, it looks like you can still turn DNIe off on the new HLRxx77 and HLRxx87 (HD2+) sets though.

You can turn DNIe off in the HLPxx63, HLPxx74, HLPxx67 and HLPxx85 models.

Note: I determined this by checking the online manuals for all these models on the Samsung web site so the information should be accurate.

I have the HLR4677 and can confirm that you CAN toggle the DNIe between on/off/demo.

I'd assume that if enough people complained that Samsung could enable this. I'm sure it's just a firmware switch to turn it on/off. Maybe a service menu option or some combination of key presses.

I have the HLR4677 and can confirm that you CAN toggle the DNIe between on/off/demo.


How?

Yikes ... I'm not sure I like these new forum graphics. Yellow text on purple background in quotes??? Plus italics. Even the white version has the purple for quotes.

Plus ... all of the links in POST #1 are no longer a different color or underlined, making them impossible to pick out. Hopefully, that will be fixed soon.

There have been many posts on this thread about the "lip sync" issue. Can anyone tell me how long the potential audio delay may be? I understand that there are HT receivers that have programmable audio delays. I looked at the Denon 3805 and it had a delay of up to 200 milleseconds. Is this enough?

There have been many posts on this thread about the "lip sync" issue. Can anyone tell me how long the potential audio delay may be? I understand that there are HT receivers that have programmable audio delays. I looked at the Denon 3805 and it had a delay of up to 200 milleseconds. Is this enough?

The problem with using your receiver to "fix" the delay is that you'll constantly be adjusting it and may never get it exact. In my opinion its not a good solution and is only a hacky work around. It seems to only happen with HDMI to the tv and audio to a receiver. Another person has posted that component to a receiver and optical to a receiver then one component into the tv exhibited no delay.

The problem with using your receiver to "fix" the delay is that you'll constantly be adjusting it and may never get it exact. In my opinion its not a good solution and is only a hacky work around. It seems to only happen with HDMI to the tv and audio to a receiver. Another person has posted that component to a receiver and optical to a receiver then one component into the tv exhibited no delay.

Best idea(s) as to what is causing this?

If you think about it, out of the cable box via hdmi it has to encode it to transport it and bundle it with video. At least on my cable box over hdmi it will up or down convert the signal. This takes time. Then when it gets to the tv it has to decode the signal and up or downconvert to match the tv. Meanwhile the audio is just getting sent over the optical to the receiver which is very fast.

If over component out of the cable box I can say just pass the native signal to the receiver. And pass the optical to the receiver. This is all very quick. The receiver then plays the audio and passes the video signal to the tv. The tv then needs to convert it but the tv can convert it a lot faster than your cable box can, but since its only 1 conversion the time penalty is probably negligible.

This is all just one big guess by me. I would assume the tv can convert a lot better and faster than the cable box. I'll know for sure once I get a 6168 and can give it a try. If I can't get it to work in my setup its going back.

Mike: I am also interested in a 6168. I will be most interested in your findings. Do you plan on getting one as soon as they hit the stores?

As for the delay, I tend to disagree. Unless the delay in the circuitry changes for some reason, once you have it set up, it ought to stay there. As I understand it, you can program different delays for the tv, dvd, etc.

Once again, anyone know how much delay there is? Is 200 milleseconds enough to compensate for it?

Mike: I am also interested in a 6168. I will be most interested in your findings. Do you plan on getting one as soon as they hit the stores?

As for the delay, I tend to disagree. Unless the delay in the circuitry changes for some reason, once you have it set up, it ought to stay there. As I understand it, you can program different delays for the tv, dvd, etc.

Yeah, I'm waiting for the powerbuy info then will probably get my name in the waiting list. I have a stand and audio rack already on order. If it doesn't work like I want it to I'll be using my 30 day return.

I don't think anyone has ever said if the delay is consistant between channels and day to day. Some channels are 720p and some 1080i. If the cable box converts everything to 720p and then sends it on I would think the delay would be different for 1080i channels than 720p channels (same if it were to convert everything to 1080i). My pre/pro does not have anything to adjust audio delay so if it doesn't work I'll be extremely pissed off but will have no problem sending it back. Also I would find it hard to believe if it were consistant that you could "dial-in" a receivers delay compensation to get it exactly matched up. I would think it would be an exercise in frustration. We will see though.

It just boggles my mind that Samsung didn't think that people would want to bypass the tv's audio circuitry. I don't know why these manufacturers bother to put speakers on these higher priced tv's anyways. For everyone I know that has an HDTV, none of them use the speakers on the tv. Hell I don't use the speakers on my 27" normal tv.

I would hope all the 1080p displays allow you to turn DNIe off, although it sounds like they won't. I wonder why they would remove that option?

I would hope all the 1080p displays allow you to turn DNIe off, although it sounds like they won't. I wonder why they would remove that option?

On my 2003 HLNxx7W series model. DNIe was not available on both the DVI and PC inputs. Therefore, since most of us are planning to put our best sources on the HDMI inputs on these new sets, I suspect DNIe will not need to be turned off because it will not be operating on HDMI.

UCSB - Is there any way to recognize what you write about DNIe not operating on HDMI? How can this be tested?

I just got the HLR-5087 as a replacement for my defective 5085. DNIe can be turned off and it's definitely enabled for HDMI use if you want it.

The set appears to basically be the same as the 5085 with the few minor design changes. With no DVI, I am now using the HDMI for upconverting DVD, forcing my HD-Tivo to component. I don't notice any difference in the picture.

The one plus is that I have basic cable to reduce the price of my modem and with the wire directly into the TV, I can get local HDTV stations. Since DirecTV does not have PBS or KTLA in the LA area, this is a plus if there's something I really want to watch on those stations.

UCSB - Is there any way to recognize what you write about DNIe not operating on HDMI? How can this be tested?

I have not seen a HLRxx68W manual or set ... so we can not check DNIe on HDMI right now. I just brought it up because in the past DNIe was not offered on the digital input.

I just got the HLR-5087 as a replacement for my defective 5085. DNIe can be turned off and it's definitely enabled for HDMI use if you want it.

Same here for a HLP5063.

Can someone explain to me the whole deal with DNIe? Why would you want to disable it and why does it exist in the first place?

The problem with using your receiver to "fix" the delay is that you'll constantly be adjusting it and may never get it exact. In my opinion its not a good solution and is only a hacky work around. It seems to only happen with HDMI to the tv and audio to a receiver.

I believe the poster you're referring to (mshap) actually said he had sync problems over both HDMI and component with his cable box, but didn't have problems over component with his DVD player. So the problem seems to be with the source of the video (cable box vs. DVD), not with the interface (HDMI vs. component).

I believe the poster you're referring to (mshap) actually said he had sync problems over both HDMI and component with his cable box, but didn't have problems over component with his DVD player. So the problem seems to be with the source of the video (cable box vs. DVD), not with the interface (HDMI vs. component).

Except he didn't have a receiver that accepted component in. So he was routing audio from cable box to receiver and component from cable to tv. So yeah, i guess interface doesn't matter, but since we can't take hdmi to a receiver yet but we can take component to a receiver hdmi causes more problems.

At the end of the day though I think its pointless to use HDMI since the tv won't pass along the multichannel audio. HDMI just isn't all its cracked up to be yet.

Can someone explain to me the whole deal with DNIe? Why would you want to disable it and why does it exist in the first place?
It's edge enhancement and is used to sell TV sets. It also degrades the overall PQ so ISF calibrators and a lot of owners here at AVS turn it off along with all the other marketing enhancements.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5607603&highlight=DNIe#post5607603

I can't wait for the 1080p models to come out, after they were announced in January I'd been putting off buying a TV till June/July and pay the premium to have one of these babies first.

I know from what I read their won't be that much usefulness in having 1080p until Blu-Ray and HD-DVDs become mainstream, but its interesting to point out that PS3 apparently will support 1080p . . so I wonder how that's going to turn out ... I suppose not much different than playing a computer game at 1080 resolution . .

I can't wait for the 1080p models to come out, after they were announced in January I'd been putting off buying a TV till June/July and pay the premium to have one of these babies first.

I know from what I read their won't be that much usefulness in having 1080p until Blu-Ray and HD-DVDs become mainstream, but its interesting to point out that PS3 apparently will support 1080p . . so I wonder how that's going to turn out ... I suppose not much different than playing a computer game at 1080 resolution . .

Even though they will be 1080p displays, they won't have the ability to accept a 1080p signal, so the usefulness of 1080p is strictly for upconverting 720p/1080i to 1080p, since you can't feed it a native 1080p signal. :(

Even though they will be 1080p displays, they won't have the ability to accept a 1080p signal, so the usefulness of 1080p is strictly for upconverting 720p/1080i to 1080p, since you can't feed it a native 1080p signal. :(

It's a still a nice PQ boost, man. I'm not sure it merits a :(.

The lack of inputs merits a :confused: :rolleyes: :mad:

What htwaits said plus...
The best way to determine if you like DNIe or not is to find an outgoing HLPxx63 model and try the picture with DNIe turned on and off.

I'm not certain, but if Samsung made any changes to DNIe between models, you're going to be doing yourself a slight diservice by judging the HLR sets with an HLP set.

the HLR's should be viewable now at all B&Ms even if it's the tiny 4266. I'd go with that instead, when judging how bad DNIe looks.

my own opinion is that it's not that bad... wish i could turn it off, but it isn't a dealbreaker.

Sneaky!! I didn't know that, so the 1080p can't take in a native 1080p resolution, thats kinda silly . . unless that was always the intention. So I know from what I saw from the Sony press release that the PS3 supports 1080p, although I hvaen't been able to confirm that its outputting a 1080p signal but if the Samsung TV can't accept a 1080p signal I'm kinda confused about what conversions take place on that front.

Looks like the site is pretty much back to normal. Post #1 is readable again. Personally, I like the look of the upgrade and would like to thank AVS! :)

Sneaky!! I didn't know that, so the 1080p can't take in a native 1080p resolution, thats kinda silly . . .

I agree. While it's a 1080p native display, it can't actually accept a native input, so all sources have to be upconverted.

Obviously it's going to look better than the current 720p chip flavors, but without being able to feed it a 1080p source I think I'll wait for the 2nd gen 1080p devices (with perhaps a 1080p input) before bucking up.

On the first page, it says it can accept 1920x1080x60Hz over the VGA input. So it can accept 1080P, just not via the HDMI input (because there were no 1080P HDMI receivers until recently). I guess the solution is to use a HTPC or a scaler with a VGA output.

It will still have to go through an Analog to digital conversion since VGA is analog.

Man, I must need to adjust my meds, but this is really bugging me. Please forgive the rant which follows...

Either I'm really confused about this, or a lot of other people are... could go either way... but I don't understand statements like there won't be that much usefulness having a 1080p monitor until Blu-Ray and HD-DVDs become mainstream, and I start to jump at the keyboard everytime I read someone mention "upconverting" 1080i to 1080p!

Most of the stations that are broadcasting HD right now are broadcasting at 1080i, which means a 1080p monitor doesn't have to upconvert or upscale the signal, just deinterlace it. There are already 1080 lines of resolution in the signal, even though those lines are interlaced.

Am I right or am I right... or am I right?

(Or am I wrong?)

End of rant.

... like there won't be that much usefulness having a 1080p monitor until Blu-Ray and HD-DVDs become mainstream
You're right. :)

What's it like for you when you are wrong? :eek:

Also, many folks don't know that HD DVDs will be recorded at 1080i regardless of the format.

Those that know seem to think that 1080i will scale to 1080p so well that it would be very hard to tell the difference. Of course that means you need to be sure you get a 1080p set that doesn't cut too many corners on it's scaling.

You're right. :)

What's it like for you when you are wrong? :eek:

Oh, I am often wrong.

Makes it feel that much better when, occasionally, I am right. :D

This article clarifies how 1080p improves 1080i and other factors.

http://news.designtechnica.com/talkback47.html

;) 1080p doubles the frame fill in upconverting. waiting for a second generation 1080p won't resolve the fact it's the broadcast medium and compression changes toward mpeg4 by cable and satellite broadcasters. after viewing side-by-side of 720p vs. 1080p the 1080p provides added detail and better blacks and provided a more look of a quality plasma panel.

was skeptical until viewing several demo's of them side-by-side and dvd bluray will take gaming to hd and ultra hd levels with dramatic increases in storage capacity for gaming developers. sony is converting their movie inventory for blu-ray taking us from 480 to 1080p and ps3 will be able to play those as well and xbox will have capability of 1080p and seeing how they are partnered with samsung it will occur as they should have the first distribution of 1080p's in the marketplace on a large scale. next generation will always improve but it's the other broadcast sources that need development more so than the tv itself.

Thanks for the link, westa6969!

All right, if Mark can talk about "upconverting" 1080i to 1080p, I guess I can chill out and stop letting the terminology bother me!

There are two things that are continuously brought up that I have quit worrying about. The first is "Oh my god, the 1080p set doesn't have 1080p input" the second is "Oh my god, there is audio lag".

As far as 1080p goes htwaits and westa6969 pretty much covered it. In addition, I really believe that we need to wait and see what the actual capabilities of the 1080p sets are. There are HDMI Rx chips available now that will accept 1080p, whether Samsung uses those chips or not remains to be seen (the chips used by Samsung are from Silicon Image it depends on which one they select).

On audio lag, I went back through all the comments regarding this and we have two people who have experienced this and it appears to be source related not due to the set. Samsung has said that audio lag will not be a problem in the new sets (and maybe Samsung didn't learn a thing from the previous model years, but I'm betting that they did!).

Anyway, I can't wait for the 1080p sets to be released so I can get it hooked up and start enjoying it. :D

Anyway, I can't wait for the 1080p sets to be released so I can get it hooked up and start enjoying it. :D

Amen, brother! I am so jazzed about the 1080 models, I can't wait to see them! I really get into the programming I watch, and the quality of the picture is really secondary. That's why I know I'm gonna love these sets -- 1080 lines of resolution AND much greater contrast AND two HDMI inputs AND all the other improvements Samsung has made since the HLPs! I'm gonna be happy with my 5078 or 5678 or 5668 (exact model yet-to-be-determined) for many years to come, regardless of what unforeseen technological revolutions the future may bring!

Bring on da 1080's!

Man, I must need to adjust my meds, but this is really bugging me. Please forgive the rant which follows...

Either I'm really confused about this, or a lot of other people are... could go either way... but I don't understand statements like there won't be that much usefulness having a 1080p monitor until Blu-Ray and HD-DVDs become mainstream, and I start to jump at the keyboard everytime I read someone mention "upconverting" 1080i to 1080p!

Most of the stations that are broadcasting HD right now are broadcasting at 1080i, which means a 1080p monitor doesn't have to upconvert or upscale the signal, just deinterlace it. There are already 1080 lines of resolution in the signal, even though those lines are interlaced.

Am I right or am I right... or am I right?

(Or am I wrong?)

End of rant.


I guess the main concern, since the Samsung 1080p unit will not even accept it's own native resolution, is how good the deinterlacing ability of the set is. It's a bit frustrating that we can't even rely on a DVD player or external scaler to do the deinterlacing, but have to rely soley on the set to do it.

I guess as someone stated earlier that it will accept a 1080P input through the VGA connection. It will just have to convert the 1080P signal from analog to digital. I'm looking forward to trying this out with my iScanHD. I just need to get another cable to replace the iscan component cable I'm using. And I guess I aslo need to get the TV. I can't wait. I still need to decide if I will pay the extra for the 67" over the 61".

I guess the main concern, since the Samsung 1080p unit will not even accept it's own native resolution, is how good the deinterlacing ability of the set is. It's a bit frustrating that we can't even rely on a DVD player or external scaler to do the deinterlacing, but have to rely soley on the set to do it.

I understand. I'm tending not to worry about the set's scaling and deinterlacing ability, since past Samsung DLPs have used Faroudja chips to accomplish these tasks, and from what I understand, these are excellent chips.

Since the ability to accept 1080p on the HDMI input on the 68, 78, and 88 series sets is of interest to just about everyone, I plan to add the item below to 'Items we would like to test, once HDTV's are available' section in POST #1. I think many of us hope that the Samsung engineers will find a way to add the capability to the sets before they are finally released. I guess we will have to use a HTPC to test it.

4. Will 1080p be supported on the HDMI input on the 1080p models (68, 78, 88 series)? All of our information collected up to this point indicates that it won't, but it is an important item and many of us hope Samsung will find a way to include it in the final production sets. It should be checked when the sets are released.

I will add the item as soon as I can ... right now the system is not letting me make changes to POST #1.

According to Schaffer970: (the chips used by Samsung are from Silicon Image it depends on which one they select).

If the above is true, and according to a Silicon Image press release attached below, I am betting that the Samsung 68 and 78 series WILL accept a 1080p signal from the HDMI inputs when it ships. A quick look at their site shows 3 Rx HDMI chips that work with DLP TVs. The oldest SiI9993 is the first gen chip and is not capable of 1080p. All of the rest (SiI9011, SiI9021) are fully 1080p capable! The 9011 is a single-input receiver, while the 9021 is a dual-input receiver. Samsung has stated that the 68 and 78 series both have 2 HDMI inputs, which lends to the 9021. Also, the 9021 was released over a full year ago in January of 2004! The new 9011 was released in January of this year. For them to use a chip that is over 2 years old when a new, better, and (from the looks of it) cheaper solution exists from the same manufacturer, it just doesn't make any sense to use the 9993. My bet is that it's the SiI9021 HDMI receiver in the 68 and 78 series DLPs and the whole non-1080p input issue that has been going on on this board is a waste of time. The 68 and 78 series will be able to accept 1080p sources when it ships. I'm betting on it, and if it doesn't, I still have my iScan HD+ to get to 1080p through the VGA port. :-)

http://www.siliconimage.com/news/press/detailpressrelease.aspx?id=275
http://www.siliconimage.com/news/press/detailpressrelease.aspx?id=217
http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?id=19

Best Regards,
Adam

According to Schaffer970: (the chips used by Samsung are from Silicon Image it depends on which one they select).

If the above is true, and according to a Silicon Image press release attached below, I am betting that the Samsung 68 and 78 series WILL accept a 1080p signal from the HDMI inputs when it ships. A quick look at their site shows 3 Rx HDMI chips that work with DLP TVs. The oldest SiI9993 is the first gen chip and is not capable of 1080p. All of the rest (SiI9011, SiI9021) are fully 1080p capable! The 9011 is a single-input receiver, while the 9021 is a dual-input receiver. Samsung has stated that the 68 and 78 series both have 2 HDMI inputs, which lends to the 9021. Also, the 9021 was released over a full year ago in January of 2004! The new 9011 was released in January of this year. For them to use a chip that is over 2 years old when a new, better, and (from the looks of it) cheaper solution exists from the same manufacturer, it just doesn't make any sense to use the 9993. My bet is that it's the SiI9021 HDMI receiver in the 68 and 78 series DLPs and the whole non-1080p input issue that has been going on on this board is a waste of time. The 68 and 78 series will be able to accept 1080p sources when it ships. I'm betting on it, and if it doesn't, I still have my iScan HD+ to get to 1080p through the VGA port. :-)

http://www.siliconimage.com/news/press/detailpressrelease.aspx?id=275
http://www.siliconimage.com/news/press/detailpressrelease.aspx?id=217
http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?id=19

Best Regards,
Adam

Thanks Adam, that is why many of us are holding out hope that they will be able to add 1080p on the HDMI input (especially on the 68, 78 series). The big unknown is the other chips in the sets and the firmware.

I hope you are right Adam. Good info.

As far as the 1080p via the VGA port, is this really worth it? Yes, this allows you to use an external scaler/deinterlacer, but you are doing an extra step with the digital-analog-digital conversion, which increases the chances of introducing artifacts.

I'm really not worried about the DA/AD conversion at all with VGA. The iScan has superb DA conversion and I assume the Samsung has good AD back to the set. If it's noticable, then I'll have to think of something else.

A. I don't think it will be an issue at all since I'm pretty sure there will be 1080p HDMI connectors on the set.

B. I come from the computer world and while I have a digital flat panel monitor on my desk, it is fed with a DVI cable, but if I switch it to VGA, there is no difference. Sure I have to tweak the colors a bit, but the picture is sharp and clear. I expect nothing less from the Samsung.

Best Regards,
Adam

UCSB, it's starting to worry me that the 68 and 78 series haven't shown up in the FCC documents yet. It's almost June and for them to not be there by now probably means we are still quite a way from the sets hitting the streets. I believe it is usually a one month minimum from when they are in the FCC system. I want mine now, damnit. hehe What is your take on this?

Best Regards,
Adam

UCSB, it's starting to worry me that the 68 and 78 series haven't shown up in the FCC documents yet. It's almost June and for them to not be there by now probably means we are still quite a way from the sets hitting the streets. I believe it is usually a one month minimum from when they are in the FCC system. I want mine now, damnit. hehe What is your take on this?

Best Regards,
Adam

I still think we will see the 68 / 78 series before the end of June. Hopefully, the manuals will show up over the next week or 10 days. I'm really counting on Schaffer970 to find them ... Schaffer970 you have been looking, right?

Will there be any 42"/46" 1080p models?

I don't believe so. 50" is the smallest size they've shown so far, and many thought they'd never make a 1080p that small. I personally think you're severely diminishing the advantages of 1080p in a set that small. Save your money and get a 720p set at that size.

Thanks!

For them to use a chip that is over 2 years old when a new, better, and (from the looks of it) cheaper solution exists from the same manufacturer, it just doesn't make any sense to use the 9993.

Hmmm... Obviously, never worked for a large manufacturing company. ;)

Just a thought, but won't the FCC documentation show us which of Adam's chips are used for the HDMI? C'mon Schaffer970, get on it! ;)

If Adam is correct and the new sets will accept 1080p over HDMI, what else is needed to futureproof these things? Max resolution, 2 HDCP-compliant HDMI ports that accept 1080p, ATSC tuner and Cablecard-ready. Would this not be the set we could be happy with for the next 10 years (those of us who prefer wobulation, that is)???

Even the Sony Qualia 006 doesn't accept 1080p sources, does it?

Checking daily (well multiple times a day :) ).

Just so everyone knows where we are at on the HDMI 1080p issue. Samsung has received FCC approval for only one of the 1080p sets, the HLR5688. The block diagram for that set shows the HDMI receiver chip as being the Silicon Image 9021 (SiI9021). When you look at the Product Brief from Silicon Image, they mention two part numbers one capable of 1080p and the other 1080i. Again we will just have to wait and see. :)

Even the Sony Qualia 006 doesn't accept 1080p sources, does it?
No, it does not. However, there are rumors (wishful thinking?) in the Qualia Owners' thread that Sony will (could) upgrade the 006 with HDMI inputs capable of 1080p @ 60hz.

Since the ability to accept 1080p on the HDMI input on the 68, 78, and 88 series sets is of interest to just about everyone, I plan to add the item below to 'Items we would like to test, once HDTV's are available' section in POST #1. I think many of us hope that the Samsung engineers will find a way to add the capability to the sets before they are finally released. I guess we will have to use a HTPC to test it.

4. Will 1080p be supported on the HDMI input on the 1080p models (68, 78, 88 series)? All of our information collected up to this point indicates that it won't, but it is an important item and many of us hope Samsung will find a way to include it in the final production sets. It should be checked when the sets are released.

I will add the item as soon as I can ... right now the system is not letting me make changes to POST #1.

I can now update POST #1 and I have added the 1080p issue to our items that we will want to test once HDTV's are available.

Just an FYI...I spoke to someone over at Vanns yesterday and they said they were expecting the 5688 in on June 6 and would begin shipping them out a few days later.

Cheers!

Just an FYI...I spoke to someone over at Vanns yesterday and they said they were expecting the 5688 in on June 6 and would begin shipping them out a few days later.

Cheers!

Thanks, I've updated POST #1 to indicate that the 5688 will be available in June.

It is encouraging to hear the 1080P from Samsung is coming very soon. I would like to know a little more about this unit: including such as native and screen resolutions, panel size, pixel size,wobulation used, light engine,color segments for color wheel------

Thanks.

Jung

Everything that is known about these sets is contained in Post #1 of this thread (which is updated on a regular basis). Look over the information there and if you have additional questions, ask away.

Just checked out Amazon for the HLR5667W. They have them now (previously was not available) and the price is pretty attractive.

I see that ABT Electronics is now taking pre-orders for the '78' series. The 6178 looks to retail at $4999.99. Here's the link to their HLR sets:

http://www.**************.com/scripts/site/site_search.php3?search_token=hlr&submit.x=12&submit.y=4&setflag=1116963419

So, as we await the 1080p sets, which do you think is better, the new HL-R5667W ($3,099.99) or the older HL-R5677W ($3,499.99).

Amazon price is attractive, but not as much when I consider lamp-changeout is not included in their warranty - darn shame they don't include

New members should always check out the "sticky" posts at the top of the RPTV forum thread list -- specially this one. :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=482944

I would like to know the pixel size as well as the light panel dimension for the Samsung TV HLR5688. Thanks you in advance for your information. Jung

So, as we await the 1080p sets, which do you think is better, the new HL-R5667W ($3,099.99) or the older HL-R5677W ($3,499.99).


I appreciate the newbie advice. :o I was merely quoting prices for identification purposed, and those are the list prices from the Samsung website. My question more directly relates to the chips. The HL-R5677W uses the HD2+ which, correct me if I'm wrong, has been the best dlp chip to date. What chip does the HL-R5667W use, and is it better than the HD2+. And if so, why would the older set cost more (all that for the thin bezel?)

As an interesting fact, this season of American Idol has been shot on Sony 1080p cams as a test of the technology. Unfortunately, it does nothing to help their voices

So, as we await the 1080p sets, which do you think is better, the new HL-R5667W ($3,099.99) or the older HL-R5677W ($3,499.99).

They are both brand new 2005 models, how is one "older" than the other?

The 5677 will have a sharper picture with a bit of SDE, which is likely to be invisible at standard viewing distances.

The 5667 will have a slightly softer image with almost no visible picture structure.

It is possible that a person could see more rainbows from one than the other, as they do use different color wheels. Which is worse, if either, will depend upon the person viewing them.

Personally I like the x74/x77 series a little better, but you might like the x67 better and we would both be right.

Help Me Fine Tune. Just received HLR 5667. Installed roof top Terk Off Air HD antenna and everything is great.

I would like quick advice on how to fine tune. where do I set color,brightness,etc... I know there is software that can assit but I want to do some fine tuning asap.

I am using Dish Network receiver and have not noticed any lip sync issues, just some weird color flashes that seem to linger and then fade quickly. Is that rainbow?

What is this "Color Weakness" setting in the menu I see in the user manual for the HLRxx67W? Is this like RGB gain for use in setting greyscale?

Chips in Samsung DLP sets can be confussing. :D

I appreciate the newbie advice. :o I was merely quoting prices for identification purposed, and those are the list prices from the Samsung website.

OK. :)

My question more directly relates to the chips. The HL-R5677W uses the HD2+ which, correct me if I'm wrong, has been the best dlp chip to date. What chip does the HL-R5667W use, and is it better than the HD2+. And if so, why would the older set cost more (all that for the thin bezel?)

Have you read the first message in this thread? It has all the most reliable information on the Samsung 2005 models.

Which chip is best gets to be a very personal choice and involves several different factors.

The sets with the HD2+ chip cost more because it's a larger chip. The light engine Samsung uses with it comes from their original models that used the HD2 chip - HLM, HLN, HLP models all with six element color wheels. The chip has 1280x720 mirrors which means one mirror controls one pixel on the screen. There are decernable gaps between the pixels if you are close enough to the screen to see them. The result is what many see as a sharper image. The HLP contast ratio was 2,000:1

The HLPxx85 sets have a HD2+ chip and a new light engine which includes a seven element color wheel and have a 2,500:1 contrast ratio.

The HLPxx63 sets use a HD3 chip which is smaller and cheaper to produce. The light engine for this series uses a seven element color wheel and claimed a contrast ratio of 1,500:1.

The HLRxx67 sets use a HD4 chip which is a later version of the HD3 chip. Each mirror controls two pixels which have been rotated such that there is some overlap with neighboring pixels. The image is slightly softer and most of us can't see the boundry between pixels. The HD4 chip has the same contrast ratio (2,000:1) in the HLR sets that the HLP/HLR (six element color wheel) HD2+ sets have.

The thin bezel case appears to also add to the cost. Samsung doesn't seem to have plans to ever produce them in large numbers.

I hope I haven't confussed things. Samsung has been very active creating different versions of their light engines.

People who's primary interest is watching films from DVD tend to think the HD3/HD4 chip sets are a better deal.

I think that if your main interest is HDTV and you can get a good OTA signal then the HD2+ chip is going to give you more "PoP" for your buck. Unfortunelty cabel and satalite services degrade their HDTV signals enough to take away some of that extra "PoP". :rolleyes:

Checking daily (well multiple times a day :) ).

Just so everyone knows where we are at on the HDMI 1080p issue. Samsung has received FCC approval for only one of the 1080p sets, the HLR5688. The block diagram for that set shows the HDMI receiver chip as being the Silicon Image 9021 (SiI9021). When you look at the Product Brief from Silicon Image, they mention two part numbers one capable of 1080p and the other 1080i. Again we will just have to wait and see. :)

Do you have a link to this on the FCC site?

Do you have a link to this on the FCC site?

Yes, I too am interested in a link to the FCC site. I keep seeing reference to it but I'm not sure whether this is some public database or not.

Thanks.

Do you have a link to this on the FCC site?

The search page is

https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/GenericSearch.cfm

1. Enter "samsung" (without the quotes) in the "Applicant Name" field.

2. Enter "dlp" (without the quotes) in the "Product Description" field.

3. Add a "0" (without the quotes) to the "10" in the Show... Records at a Time" field (I'll explain why in a minute).

4. Press the "Start Search" button.

When the result page comes up, click once on the heading of the "Grant Date" column. This will order the search results by date, with the most recent at the top.

You want to enter a large number in the "Show... Records at a Time" field in step 3 because only the results on the page you're looking at are put in order when you click on "Grant Date," so if you're only looking at the first 10 out of 21 results (there are a total of 21 results from searching on "samsung" and "dlp" at this moment), only those first 10 will be put in order, and you won't necessarily see the most recent grant at the top.

On the abt electronics website you can download the spec sheet of all the hlr xx78 dlp's, including the 7178. Gives the dimensions that are different than the ones on the first entry of this thread. E.g., without the 'pedestal base', the WxHxD of the 7178 is 65.8x45.9x18.7.

To add to thommy's info, the Federal Communication Commission (FCC) site is a public database. All manufactures must do testing for electromagnetic fields from electronic devices insuring that they do not exceed specified levels (most of what you see is cell phones and that type of device). The testing is normally done by certified laboratories (I think the FCC does do some of its own testing) and is submitted to the FCC for their approval. The submitted information is then available for your review. If you look around for very long, one of the things you will notice is that you can't find data from most (all?) the Japanese manufactures. As near as I can tell we have some sort of trade agreements with certain countries that allow for them to do their own testing. The US then apparently doesn't require anything to be submitted to us. I have tired to find where information might be available on some site in Japan, but so far have found nothing - at least that was in english. Enjoy your tax dollars hard at work! :D

From the ABT spec sheet millerwill found:

Currently, HDMI, DVI and Component inputs can only accept up to 1080i signals.
All 1080i signals are converted to 1080p. Off-air 1080p signals are displayed in their
broadcast format.

Probably not what people wanted to hear - but the last sentence is interesting!

I have made some additions to POST #1. They include:

1. Adding a DLP Chip Operation bullet in the spec's area on each model line.
2. Comments at the top of the 720p section indicating that all 2005 models are now shipping and how to quickly identify 2004 and 2003 models.
3. Links to SamsungUSA.com in the 77, 87 series sections.

The other interesting item to note is that Samsung is using the "up to 10,000:1" CR.

So since it looks like the HDMI input can only accept 1080i it begs to ask three questions.
1. How expensive is the Silicon Image 9021 - 1080p "accepting" version
2. Could one swap the two out / are they of the same spec when it comes to size etc
3. What are the chances of a future wireless broadcast from HD-DVD player / P3/360 etc that the tuner would be able to pick up (since it can display 1080p if received OTA)

I am guessing that the last question truly shows how little I know in that area, but the thought just hit me and I figured that some people can probably answer pretty simple and it is either going to be - A) possible or B) no way ever

So no 1080p through HDMI just waiting for the "sorry can't do 5.1 through the HDMI" either confirmation

Some sites offering Pre-Orders for Samsung '68 & '78 series 1080P's: ABT Electronics, Wholesale Connection, Radar City, 1-888Camcorder. do a little digging and you'll find more. Within a week or so, there will be a lot more. Remember, patience will be rewarded - this Summer and Fall there will be an astounding amount of 1080P sets hitting the market from many manufacturers; Toshiba, Mitsubishi, JVC, LG, just to name a few. Price points are already dropping drastically on the Samsungs and they're not even out yet! When the competition heats up in the Fall, you'll be able to pick and choose among 1080P's with vastly superior electronics, design, workmanship and PQ at a LOWER price than people were paying for 720P's of the same screen size just about this time last year!!~
It is truly going to be a "Buyer's Market".

I've updated the contrast ratio on all 1080p specs in POST #1 to read 'up to 10,000:1'. I have also added a link next to the model/price info at the top of the 78 series section to the .pdf spec sheet. I'll review and update the dimensions here later this evening.

Thanks millerwill for finding the spec sheet! It really locks the 78 series model line-up into the 50", 56", 61", and 71".

mhdiab, I don't think just changing a part will do it. These sets are taking digital signals and "computer" processing them. It takes programing along with the parts to make everything work. Your thought of wireless transmission is interesting - tune your HD DVD/Blu-ray player to channel 47 and your set to channel 47 and away you go! :D (don't count on it anytime soon)

As I continue to read what Samsung says - I also note that they leave out firewire (1394) in the above quote. Interesting, verrry interesting.

Some sites offering Pre-Orders for Samsung '68 & '78 series 1080P's: ABT Electronics, Wholesale Connection, Radar City, 1-888Camcorder. do a little digging and you'll find more. Within a week or so, there will be a lot more. Remember, patience will be rewarded - this Summer and Fall there will be an astounding amount of 1080P sets hitting the market from many manufacturers; Toshiba, Mitsubishi, JVC, LG, just to name a few. Price points are already dropping drastically on the Samsungs and they're not even out yet! When the competition heats up in the Fall, you'll be able to pick and choose among 1080P's with vastly superior electronics, design, workmanship and PQ at a LOWER price than people were paying for 720P's of the same screen size just about this time last year!!~
It is truly going to be a "Buyer's Market".

It's difficult to know these things for sure, but I do think that you are right.

It's just a matter of whether I (we) can actually hold out until fall/winter!

Thanks schaffer970 - I was figuring since the tv is capable of receiving a 1080p signal it would just be a matter of getting it into the tv, but probably setup to work with the HDMI data so no way of getting around it - guess we will see. Someone might have enough cash to risk a few thousand :)

In regards to pricing - if they don't come down quick enough then at least it should put some great pressure on the 720p's and I might just end up with one of those. It is incredible how cheap you can find the 67W-series already and the fluctuation day to day - I was tracking it on one website and the 61-inch fluctuated 30% from yesterday to today - amazing (reputable site).

One spec that I find interesting on the HLRxx78W spec sheet is Brightness (cd/m2). It varies by screen size.

71" = 500
61" = 600
56" = 700
50" = 800

gazelle, I think you are right about the prices. As far as vastly superior electronics, I doubt it. We've heard from all the manufacturers for this years models, and all have pretty much said the same things about their electronics. As we are all aware, the cycle will start all over again in January!

I've added the brightness spec for the 78 series to POST #1. I wonder if the higher numbers on the smaller sets will mean higher perceived contrast or more impact from the image.

UCSB, did you notice that the 71" has a 120w/132w bulb rather than the 100w/120w bulb for the other sizes? It apparetly takes a lot of watts to light up that 71" screen!

UCSB, did you notice that the 71" has a 120w/132w bulb rather than the 100w/120w bulb for the other sizes? It apparetly takes a lot of watts to light up that 71" screen!

Yes ... I was thinking of adding the lamp specs to post #1.

I've updated the dimensions for the 68, 78 series in post #1. millerwill, I'm sure you are happy with the reduced dimensions of the larger 71" set!

Ok, based on the Block Diagram (https://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=528328&native_or_pdf=pdf) for the HLR5688, Samsung shows video and audio into the HDMI Rx chips, a I2S (Inter-IC Sound - serial bus path for digital sound) out and going to the audio in on the Xilleon (ATI) chip. Finally there is a SPDIF (digital audio) out from the Xilleon chip. It would appear that there is a digital sound path all the way from the HDMI input to the digital audio out.

This diagram is relative straight-forward (I can more or less make out what is going on. The one for the HLRxx67 models is in a different format and it's not as clear to me what is going on with regard to sound. :confused:

I've added the lamp specs to the 78 series section of POST #1.

Ok, based on the Block Diagram (https://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=528328&native_or_pdf=pdf) for the HLR5688, Samsung shows video and audio into the HDMI Rx chips, a I2S (Inter-IC Sound - serial bus path for digital sound) out and going to the audio in on the Xilleon (ATI) chip. Finally there is a SPDIF (digital audio) out from the Xilleon chip. It would appear that there is a digital sound path all the way from the HDMI input to the digital audio out.

This diagram is relative straight-forward (I can more or less make out what is going on. The one for the HLRxx67 models is in a different format and it's not as clear to me what is going on with regard to sound. :confused:

In the 78 series brochure ... under connections they list DVI Audio In. This does not make any sense to me. I guess it should be labeled HDMI Audio In. Did you notice this?

Everyone seems to be confused by this one. Its for when you have a STB with DVI out (no sound), you use a DVI to HDMI cable/converter and plug this into the HDMI port. Then to get sound to the set you use the DVI Audio In for L/R sound from the sets speakers. If your STB has a digital sound out you send this directly to your receiver (with the possibility of lag???). There is no digital sound into the set other than HDMI and the Cable/OTA tuners.

I was just thinking about this issue of audio/video lag and it dawned on me what the problem is that the engineers are facing (based on my very limited knowledge of what is going on). With HDMI and fireware the audio and video have a timing relationship built-in between them. If the video and audio are in-sync coming out of one device and you keep track of the timing through all the processing you know how they go back together. When it comes to the other types of input, there is no timing connection between the video and audio. It's always been assumed that they were in-sync and any delays involved were minor. This may or may not be the case now. So if they are out of sync coming into the set what do you do? There is no way for you to match them together. If the delay is due to your processing, you have a good idea of what that is and can correct for this (I believe Samsung has a way to do this in the service menu). So the result of this is that only HDMI, Firewire, Cable tuner and OTA audio are going to be kept in a digital format in the set and be available in the digital audio out. Everything else might just as well be sent directly to your receiver as there is nothing the set can do to fix things.

If anyone has more thoughts on this, please share!

Everyone seems to be confused by this one. Its for when you have a STB with DVI out (no sound), you use a DVI to HDMI cable/converter and plug this into the HDMI port. Then to get sound to the set you use the DVI Audio In for L/R sound from the sets speakers. If your STB has a digital sound out you send this directly to your receiver (with the possibility of lag???). There is no digital sound into the set other than HDMI and the Cable/OTA tuners.

Thanks.

Is there any spec sheets for the 68 series...being that the 78 series spec sheets are now release does that mean the 78's will be released before the 68's.

Found this on the 1080p toshiba thread: http://www.ultimateavmag.com/news/052305toshiba/

Scroll down to the last couple of paragraphs. It says that the "HD4" chip is NOT worbulated. Could that be why sales people are being told that the HLRXX67 has an HD2+ chip? Or is this just another press error?

OK, just when we thought it was safe to assume our nomenclature for chips was correct....

An article on the upcoming Toshiba sets (where the 1080p finally has the speakers *on the bottom*, BTW), says that they are using the xHD4 for the 1080p, and the HD4 for the 720p (fine, that's what we have said since January).

The kicker is here: THEY CLAIM THE HD4 IS THE SUCCESSOR TO THE HD2+ (i.e., NOT wobbulation!?)

Does this mean that their or two new 720p chips?! or is the article simply wrong? (I found nothing *else* wrong in the article, so it is hard to judge.)

Here is the source for thos interested. The chip talk is at the end:


http://www.ultimateavmag.com/news/052305toshiba/

DOH! donb is too fast for me (that'll teach me not to refresh :) )

The article is wrong. If it uses the HD4 chip it is wobulated. If it still uses the HD2+ chip it is not. This info is at the beginning of the threrad.

aaronwt: I realize that the article could be wrong, but you must recall several things:

1. WE started calling it the HD4, TI does not recognize that as a chip name at all, so there easily could be TWO 720p chips and since we made up the same name that toshiba did, we are confused.

2. Despite the fact taht UCSB is doing an outstanding jobe of keeping post #1 up to date, IT IS NOT GOSPEL. In fact, most of it has been hashed together from half conversations with reps or from docs swiped off websites. The "According to TI" part of the fellows article makes me thing he actually TALKED to TI (which no one on this thread has AFAIK)

so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility that out speculation is somewhat off.

Just one more observation:

Although I have not actually looked at one yet, I would imagine that someone could easily confirm that the Samsung 67 series were wobbulated simply by looking for the diamond pattern.

This does NOT, however, prove that there is no updated version of the HD2+ (should we call it the HD4+ ;) )

I've updated the dimensions for the 68, 78 series in post #1. millerwill, I'm sure you are happy with the reduced dimensions of the larger 71" set!

You are indeed correct UCSB! With the screen dimensions of the 71" screen, this means that the black bezel on the top and sides is only 2" wide, and the distance from the bottom of the screen to the bottom of the set is 9" (all measurements without the 'pedestal base'), which are precisely those of the present hlp 6163 that I have. So the 7178 is going to be more 'all screen'! Furthermore, from the pictures, it looks like the black bezel on the xx78's is the flat (matte) black--also like that on the present hlp xx63's--rather than the high gloss black shown in the Jan Las Vegas show. IMO these are all very positve changes in the xx78 framing.

The author got things mixed up. There is a .55" XGA chip that is not wobulated - mirror count is 1024x768 which is used in projectors. The chip that TI calls the 720p is a .55" chip with 640x720 mirrors and is wobulated. Based on known mirror sizes and the math involved the only way to get a .55" chip that will do 1280x720 screen pixels is to make it wobulated.

schaffer970: where have you confirmed that the Toshiba chip is 0.55" ?

UCSB: Could you check on the black bezel of the xx78 series sets? In the spec sheets it really looks to be the flat, matte black like on the present hlp xx63 sets, rather than the glossy black we have seen up til now. This would really be nice if it were true.

Quick newb questions:

Will I be able to run my mac Mini through the VGA port at high resolutions? I'd love to use one of these big TVs as a monitor, stick bluetooth in the mini and just chill on the couch while surfing the web. I tried this on my current TV, but it's resolution is nowhere near the 1900x of these.

Also, I looked at projection TVs last year before getting a plasma and noticed that unless I was sitting directly in front of them, the screen wasn't nearly as crisp. Is that going to be true with these as well? Thanks.

schaffer970: where have you confirmed that the Toshiba chip is 0.55" ?

I don't have anything that says Toshiba is using a .55" chip. However if they are using the TI 720P chip then it is .55". There are several presentations by TI floating around that show their product line. The only 1280x720 chip left is the HD2+. Unless TI is making a secret chip for Toshiba (which I highly doubt) then they are either using the HD2+ or 720P chip which is wobulated.

Manuals for the HLRxx64 series (42, 50, 56 and 61 inch) went up on the Samsung Global download site.

From the manual 1-HDMI, 1-DVI, 1-VGA, the usual component, S-video inputs etc., NO cable card, NO TV Guide. DNIe can be turned off and on.

There are manuals in both english and french so it looks like this will be a Canadian model also.

64 series?!

UCSB: Could you check on the black bezel of the xx78 series sets? In the spec sheets it really looks to be the flat, matte black like on the present hlp xx63 sets, rather than the glossy black we have seen up til now. This would really be nice if it were true.

The .pdf file that we are using for the 78 series specs is only 108k in size. It has been so severely compressed that any detail in the photos has been obliterated ... such as the gloss on the bezel. I think the safe bet is that the bezel is still as shown in all of our earlier high resolution photos.

On May 9, TWICE ran an article with the following quote:

Derivative DLP models featuring 2004 styling cosmetics will be offered in a 56 series for mass merchants and warehouse clubs. This series will include 50W-inch and 56W-inch models, and possibly a 61W-inch model later in the year. These models have ATSC tuning but omit CableCARD slots.

I believe the 64 series are these - looks like they changed the number or TWICE got it wrong - who knows?

Although I have not actually looked at one yet, I would imagine that someone could easily confirm that the Samsung 67 series were wobbulated simply by looking for the diamond pattern.

I've carefully inspected the 67 series ... it is wobulated.

I think the safe bet is that the bezel is still as shown in all of our earlier high resolution photos.

Hope springs eternal.

On May 9, TWICE ran an article with the following quote:

Derivative DLP models featuring 2004 styling cosmetics will be offered in a 56 series for mass merchants and warehouse clubs. This series will include 50W-inch and 56W-inch models, and possibly a 61W-inch model later in the year. These models have ATSC tuning but omit CableCARD slots.

I believe the 64 series are these - looks like they changed the number or TWICE got it wrong - who knows?

So I guess the 64 series is restyled/revised 63 series. Should I add them to the 720p section of POST #1?????

UCSB, I think I would wait. It's not clear yet how these will fit in and where they will be sold. It would be nice if Samsung would put together a full line product brochure so we could see what they are up to. :D

UCSB, I think I would wait. It's not clear yet how these will fit in and where they will be sold. It would be nice if Samsung would put together a full line product brochure so we could see what they are up to. :D

OK ... let's wait and see where and if they show up.

I've added brightness and lamp specs to the 68 series section of POST #1. These numbers are based on the 78 series data. I didn't have data for the 67" HLR6768W, so I estimated values. Hopefully, someone will find the 68 series brochure when it is released and we can confirm the numbers.

I agree whole heartedly with the above comments regarding the excitment. Bring on the 1080p models, I'm itching to swap out my 24" Wega for a 61" Samsung.

- D

aaronwt: I realize that the article could be wrong, but you must recall several things:

1. WE started calling it the HD4, TI does not recognize that as a chip name at all, so there easily could be TWO 720p chips and since we made up the same name that toshiba did, we are confused.

No, we did not. If you look at the pictures from CES, Optoma and Sharp were already calling it the HD4 (on specs cards), which is confirmed with pictures. See below.

2. Despite the fact taht UCSB is doing an outstanding jobe of keeping post #1 up to date, IT IS NOT GOSPEL. In fact, most of it has been hashed together from half conversations with reps or from docs swiped off websites. The "According to TI" part of the fellows article makes me thing he actually TALKED to TI (which no one on this thread has AFAIK)

When I talked to the representatives at the TI booth they referred to two .55" DMD chips, including a newer one with improved contrast. If you compare the specs of the HLP5663 with the HLR5667, you will find that they both have .55" DMDs, but the HLR is rated at 2500:1 contrast ratio, while the HLP is rated at 1500:1. All .55" DMDs used in rear-projection are SmoothPicture (wobulated) 720p chips.

so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility that out speculation is somewhat off.

If you read the Optoma press release about their HD4 equipped new sets (just google HD4 and optoma), they are listed as SmoothPicture chips.

To sum up, this is more than speculation. Chip sizes don't lie. I did talk to TI reps at CES. Moreover, we did not christen the chip the HD4--Optoma and Sharp broke TI's "no chip names" protocol at CES and explicitly named the chips in their sets.

It's quite possible that TI has changed the chip nomenclature since then. This is not the first chip nomenclature controversy--in Gary Merson's HDTV Insider article in The Perfect Vision (last month, I believe), he said the 1080p chip may be called the HD4. Press reports since then have named the chip the xHD4, a term I have not used until it was used by the manufacturers themselves (I used the term xHDy before). I think it is much more likely the article writer is mistaken.

It's been a bit depressing to read in the various threads about the lip sync problems with the new Samsung xx67 sets (720p). It seems that the problem arises if one feeds the audio from the cable box (or dvd) directly to one's AVR via a digital cable (e.g. fiber optics) and the video from the cable box (or dvd) to the tv via HDMI. But isn't this the prefered way to do things? Is this really ubiquitous, and does one expect it also to be a problem on the xx68's and xx78's?

FWIW, component video is still rock solid, so you don't necessarily need to buy into the HDMI hype for now. :)

(I based this only upon switching between component dishnetwork DiscoverHD and KOCE or KCET HD directly off the air. The PQ is the same to me)

Plus, IIRC, I heard that current HDMI only does 2 channel audio through the TV, so it's not that great.

the TV's optical out can provide 5.1 (as I can see from OTA going directly to the TV and out the digital toslink to my receiver) so it's not the TV that's refusing to pass 5.1 output.

It's been a bit depressing to read in the various threads about the lip sync problems with the new Samsung xx67 sets (720p). It seems that the problem arises if one feeds the audio from the cable box (or dvd) directly to one's AVR via a digital cable (e.g. fiber optics) and the video from the cable box (or dvd) to the tv via HDMI. But isn't this the prefered way to do things? Is this really ubiquitous, and does one expect it also to be a problem on the xx68's and xx78's?

I am keeping an open mind on the lip sync issue. I wished I had a HLRxx67W to run some tests because I suspect that many of the reports of lip sync relate to problems outside of the HDTV. There have been little problems with many of the reports including descriptions that sound like broadcast issues, using inferior STB's, uncertainty about setup and confusion over connections. On the other hand, there have been reports of no lip sync issues from some owners.

Sometimes problems can be really hard to understand. Case in point, I read a post recently where a new owner was underwhelmed by the performance of the TV. This really surprised me because I have seen the set and was impressed. This is what I think their issue was: I think they were using an SA8300HD STB at 720p. I'm not completely sure, but think this is one of those devices that cuts 1080i down to 540 to scale back to 720p. If this is the case, it sure would explain the disappointment with the HD material on the new TV. But, the issue has nothing to do with the TV.

I am keeping an open mind on the lip sync issue. I wished I had a HLRxx67W to run some tests because I suspect that many of the reports of lip sync relate to problems outside of the HDTV. There have been little problems with many of the reports including descriptions that sound like broadcast issues, using inferior STB's, uncertainty about setup and confusion over connections. On the other hand, there have been reports of no lip sync issues from some owners.

Well, UCSB, I hope you are right, i.e., that these problems are mainly source-related. I have heard very little on Mits threads about lip sync problems (of course there are other things that people in the Mits camp gripe about!) Still looking for the perfect set.

How long does it take a manufacturer to anounce final specs and data on new products? The Samsung sets are supposed to appear in four-plus weeks. Are they still making final modifications to the specs? The Model no.s have been known for a while now. How is one to decide without firm data? Do TV manufacturers even consider informing the public or are they just...(Just a question(s)!...)

Ed, if we get real data we'll just have to start bitching about reality instead of making it up as we go along! :D

How long does it take a manufacturer to anounce final specs and data on new products? The Samsung sets are supposed to appear in four-plus weeks. Are they still making final modifications to the specs? The Model no.s have been known for a while now. How is one to decide without firm data? Do TV manufacturers even consider informing the public or are they just...(Just a question(s)!...)

Ed, if you go to the 78 series section of POST #1 and click on the spec sheet link next to each screen size, it will bring up a Samsung brochure for the 78 series. I just added these yesterday! The 78 series specs are the same as the 68 series ... so I think things are pretty much defined now. I also updated all of the relevant 68 and 78 series specs in post #1. I'm pretty sure that it is accurate and reliable.

Have I missed a spec or feature that you need?

UCSB,

Thanks. No, you have not missed a beat! I was just expressing fustration at this waiting game...something that I'll never get used to. Some reach an age where type A behavior paterns may be detrimental to one's health.

Ed, if you go to the 78 series section of POST #1 and click on the spec sheet link next to each screen size, it will bring up a Samsung brochure for the 78 series. I just added these yesterday! The 78 series specs are the same as the 68 series ... so I think things are pretty much defined now. I also updated all of the relevant 68 and 78 series specs in post #1. I'm pretty sure that it is accurate and reliable.

Have I missed a spec or feature that you need?

Strange that no one has been about to russle up a similar spec sheet for the xx68 sets.

Well, UCSB, I hope you are right, i.e., that these problems are mainly source-related. I have heard very little on Mits threads about lip sync problems (of course there are other things that people in the Mits camp gripe about!) Still looking for the perfect set.

It's definitely source-related in that bad source really compounds the sync issue. turning off DNR helps a little. DNIe might, if it was disengageable.

It may also be input-related, as major sync reports come from those via HDMI while my component-only setup seems to be ok.

I'm very sensitive to the whole ventriloquism effect. With my 5067w, I've only noticed it on some material (like the Fran Dresser show in HD) and not others.

Sometimes, it's certain scenes (A New Hope DVD, scene with Princess Leah chatting it up with Darth Vader, for instance) but not others (Han chatting it up with Obiwan in the Cantina) and may still be source related. (Someone with the widescreen DVDs and another tv, please go to the scene with Leah and see if she's a bit off-sync)

I've spent sessions watching OTA HD, dishnetwork HD, and/or DVDs with no sync issues, so YMMV.

Sometimes, it's certain scenes (A New Hope DVD, scene with Princess Leah chatting it up with Darth Vader, for instance) but not others (Han chatting it up with Obiwan in the Cantina) and may still be source related. (Someone with the widescreen DVDs and another tv, please go to the scene with Leah and see if she's a bit off-sync)


I tried to notice a lag on this Leiah / Vader scene but I didn't notice any. At first I thought I noticed it at the very begining of the scene but the shot was too wide to really tell for sure. This is with a traditional old CRT over S-Video / RCA.

It may also be input-related, as major sync reports come from those via HDMI while my component-only setup seems to be ok.

Is anyone that is having sync problems on HDMI on the HLRxx67W using a DVD player? Are all HDMI sync problems coming from broadcast (cable, satellite)?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=540029


64 series is for Canada only - I read through all posts just a few nights ago and knew I read about it in this very thread and the link was posted by Akastp on 5/15

Originally Posted by schaffer970
Ok, based on the Block Diagram for the HLR5688, Samsung shows video and audio into the HDMI Rx chips, a I2S (Inter-IC Sound - serial bus path for digital sound) out and going to the audio in on the Xilleon (ATI) chip. Finally there is a SPDIF (digital audio) out from the Xilleon chip. It would appear that there is a digital sound path all the way from the HDMI input to the digital audio out.

So to get to the bottom of this - HDMI on 88 series will be able to pass 5.1 and the lag issue should not be there (not judging if it is there on other models) if you run HDMI in and optical out to the receiver - correct?

The sales guy at BB that I talked to was sure - HD4 on the 67 series he said - then he continued to tell me how it does 1080p until I pointed to the note on the tv that said 720p and he changed it to accepts 1080p - if they get one thing right they screw up on the next..............

FCC approval was granted today for LAR4264. The pictures show the floating screen design and the manual they provided was actually for the HLRxx67 series. mhdiab, sounds like you are right, Canada only - that may be why no cable card or Tv Guide (I don't know why they go through FCC for approval but maybe it's easier to do it that way).

Hello,

I am new to the rear projection TV world and I was wondering if any of the HLR* TVs can be mounted on the wall? I think I heard something about DLP TVs that are like 17-20 inches thick and can be mounted on the walls like Plasma/LCD. Thanks.

I think I heard something about DLP TVs that are like 17-20 inches thick and can be mounted on the walls like Plasma/LCD. Thanks.
There is one model (RCA) that is a little less than 7". The 50" Samsung HLP set is about 14" deep. It might look ok if you cut a hole in the wall.

Does anyone know if the HLR sets have CCA? It's a service menu feature which allows someone with a spectroradiometer to accurately adjust the set primaries. It was introduced on the HLP line and now I will never buy another display without a similar feature.

So on the HLRs is there a menu called CCA in the service menu?

I ask because I was considering recommending an HLR5067 to a friend.

Thanks,
Collin

millerwill: I have posed the question, several times, on this thread as to how long the delay for "lip sync" really is. In other words, what is the video processing time, how many frames? To date, either I have not seen the answer, no one has posted it, or no one knows.

But, the bottom line is that many of the new, medium to high end, audio/ HT receivers and seperates have programmable "lip sync" delays of from 200-250 milleseconds. My only question is, is this enough.

Until the new Sammy's are in customers' hands and several "someones" address this issue, I think that it is very premature to suggest that it is a real problem. Of course, buying a new stereo may be a problem just after buying a new Sammy!

For What It Is Worth.

I've heard about the CCA feature on the service menu and would be very interested to know if it's there on the HLRxx67W, as I just ordered one. Being able to adjust the color primaries would be great. I've heard reports that you can't even disable DNIe from the service menu and that has me worried, however.

I realize that somehow people seem to be taking it personally that I am still questioning that we have the complete picture here as far as the chips are concerned. I am not sure why this is true (I am very pleased and impressed with the level of detail available currently BTW).

Here is my last comment in this regard, however. It is simply not true that there is no successor to the HD2+ chip. The Toshiba-article writer may well be wrong in deciding to call it an HD4 chip (since actual observation of the 67 series seems to agree so well with Sharp and Optoma's description of what THEY are calling HD4, and it is clearly a wobbled chip), but there is certainly a "new" chip around, and this may be what Toshiba's 720ps are going to use. This from Sim2's site:

"The RT80 is the first rear projector in the market to feature the new 0.8" 720p DarkChip3™ by Texas Instruments (HD2+ DC3). The DarkChip3™ incorporates smaller mirror hinges, reduced gaps between mirrors, a flatter, more reflective surface and a new light absorbent coating for unmatched contrast and color uniformity. Also the DarkChip3™ is a Fast Track Pixel (FTP) chip that allows an approx. 50% reduction of the dithering effect for an exceptionally natural, crystal clear image."

IIRC FTP and DC3 are both "criteria" for calling a chip a "next gen" (i.e., HD4, xHD4 contemporary) chip.

What's coming out first the 78 series or the 68 series...seems like the 78 series is showing up more than the 68 on web sites.

(straw man)

When did anyone ever deny TI would update the HD2+ chip? It would be a silly argument. If TI has improved the HD2 chip, the HD3 chip, and the xHD3 chip, it would follow that they are also trying to improve the HD2+. The only information we have on the new Toshiba sets is from the Toshiba press release and that article that supposes the HD4 is a 1:1 mirror to pixel chip. I just believe the writer was mistaken--nothing more, nothing less.

I realize that somehow people seem to be taking it personally that I am still questioning that we have the complete picture here as far as the chips are concerned. I am not sure why this is true (I am very pleased and impressed with the level of detail available currently BTW).

Here is my last comment in this regard, however. It is simply not true that there is no successor to the HD2+ chip. The Toshiba-article writer may well be wrong in deciding to call it an HD4 chip (since actual observation of the 67 series seems to agree so well with Sharp and Optoma's description of what THEY are calling HD4, and it is clearly a wobbled chip), but there is certainly a "new" chip around, and this may be what Toshiba's 720ps are going to use. This from Sim2's site:

"The RT80 is the first rear projector in the market to feature the new 0.8" 720p DarkChip3™ by Texas Instruments (HD2+ DC3). The DarkChip3™ incorporates smaller mirror hinges, reduced gaps between mirrors, a flatter, more reflective surface and a new light absorbent coating for unmatched contrast and color uniformity. Also the DarkChip3™ is a Fast Track Pixel (FTP) chip that allows an approx. 50% reduction of the dithering effect for an exceptionally natural, crystal clear image."

IIRC FTP and DC3 are both "criteria" for calling a chip a "next gen" (i.e., HD4, xHD4 contemporary) chip.

profjoe, I need to apologize, I didn't mean to jump on you. I had completely forgotten about the .8" 720P chip. I think you have hit on exactly why TI has changed their numbering system. I believe you are correct in that the .8" 720P is is basically an upgraded (FTP, DC3) HD2+ - maybe they should have called it the HD2++ :) I think we have gotten to a point where there are several lines of chips each of which have different qualities that some may or may not like. This has given rise to the new designation of size and resolution (.8" 720p, .85" 1080P etc). The SmoothPicture designation then provides information on whether the chip is wobulated. With the other designations giving even more information (and at least some are optional). Now if we could just get the manufacturers to actually tell us what they are using in each set. :D

I recommend that when referring to this 2005 upgraded HD2+ that we refer to it as a HD2++ (.8" 720p). I wonder if it made it's way into the HLR5087W?

isn't it better to call it the .8" 720P non-wobulated to avoid all the confusion the HD* designation style is causing?

millerwill: I have posed the question, several times, on this thread as to how long the delay for "lip sync" really is. In other words, what is the video processing time, how many frames? To date, either I have not seen the answer, no one has posted it, or no one knows.

what the heck!? Haven't I been answering the lipsync question multiple times in multiple threads now? what am i, chopped liver?!

i must be on some ignore list or another. :D

edit: for the record: no delay on component = 0 msec.
delay because of source material = variable msec because you can't set a specific number, since it comes and goes.

I tried to notice a lag on this Leiah / Vader scene but I didn't notice any. At first I thought I noticed it at the very begining of the scene but the shot was too wide to really tell for sure. This is with a traditional old CRT over S-Video / RCA.

IIRC, the scene is the one where Leah starts out in the holding cell. Vader comes in. At some point, they zoom in on the Interobot holding a big syringe. There are a lot of close ups in that one to Leah.

I wonder, maybe sync problems are more visible because the image is so big on these tv's. :D

IIRC, the scene is the one where Leah starts out in the holding cell. Vader comes in. At some point, they zoom in on the Interobot holding a big syringe. There are a lot of close ups in that one to Leah.

I wonder, maybe sync problems are more visible because the image is so big on these tv's. :D

No sorry I thoought you were refering to Leiah and Vader talking at the beginning (I am a member of the Imperial senate on a diplomatic mission to Alderan / You are a rebel spy and a traitor) I will look at the interregation scene latter.

Aaaah...

HD2+, HD2++, HD4... Does this change any opinions or add any uncertainty as to what's in the HL-RXX67? (Remembering his military training, our not so intrepid poster keeps his head low while offering as an aside...On the other hand, does it matter?)

NO, the HLRxx67s have the HD4 in them without question.

isn't it better to call it the .8" 720P non-wobulated to avoid all the confusion the HD* designation style is causing?

I have not abandoned the HD designation because the .8" 720p type of descriptions do not convey any idea of which chip we are talking about. For example, if you have a .8" 720p that is a 2004 chip and a .8" 720p that is a 2005 chip, how would you distinguish between them?

I agree that HD2++ (.8" 720p) is confusing, especially since we just made it up :D :D :D but it may be the best we have.

I probably should change all of the descriptions in POST #1 to a format like xHD4 (.85" 1080p).

OK, whew...glad we got *that* straightened out. I would hate to continue "arguing" with people who I think have spent their time MUCH more productively putting together a wealth of information for me and others to use when deciphering which new DLP to get!

As schaffer970 said, I guess we see why TI has asked manufacturers to stop using the chip "names". :)

So, as far as *this* thread is concerned, Samsung doesn't care that there is still a 1:1 720p chip (at least for the 67 series). Other manufacturers (definitely Sim2, and *possibly* Toshiba) apparently are going to use it for their sets.

I, personally, find this to be *great* news since we now have basically three "levels" of DLP sets to choose from:

High end - 1080p wobbled chip (CR 5000-10000)
Mid range - 720p 1:1 mapped chip (CR 3500? from Sim2 anyway)
Economically viable - 720p wobble chip (CR 2500)

The more choice the better. :)

BTW, I would be *shocked* if the 87 series did not use the HD2++ (or whatever we are going to call it ;) ). If we got an update CR or saw any mention of DC3, we would know better...

(edit: minor change and spell check)

Well...looking again at the preliminary CR of 2500, maybe I shouldn't say "shocked" since they were possibly just throwing in the tuner.... ;)

There is one model (RCA) that is a little less than 7". The 50" Samsung HLP set is about 14" deep. It might look ok if you cut a hole in the wall.

Thanks for the info. What about the HLR series models?

I noticed in the pictures that the depth is not symmetrical on the back of the Samsung and there is a hump near the bottom. Are there any HLR models that do not have this hump near the bottom and that is 17" deep throughout the whole chassis?

For analogy, think of a LCD or a Plasma that is 17" deep without any humps and looks really thick.

I'm trying to wade through all the stats, model numbers, etc and make a decision on a HDTV. I've seen several of the Samsung DLPs, and I generally like the picture (and my wife seems to like it too!). [If anyone wants to offer other brands or technologies to look at, I'm open, but I don't expect it on the Samsung DLP HLR thread.]

We've decided on the 56".

Now, I can't get over how many 56" Samsung DLP models there are!

At first, I was following well; I'd see comments like 3rd Gen, 4th Gen, 5th Gen. But now...

I go to web sites and do comparisons:

the 67 appears to have a higher contrast ratio 2500:1 vs 2000:1
will I be able to see this?

the 77 appears to have fewer (legacy) inputs
might not matter to me because I'm (un)fortunately (re)building my HT from scratch.

the 67 has 5th Gen HD vs the 77 HD2+
what's the difference? (I did read some of the earlier portions of this thread, but I couldn't quite pull it together)

are there other differences?

I see a lot of posts about 87 and HD2++; what is everyone expecting and how much better will it be? should I wait?

On a semi related note, if I don't have cable, should I get a unit w/o a cable card?

Do all the models have HD tuners? Is there any advantages in waiting to buy the tuner separately later?

Please forgive me for having so many questions, but I am truly overwhelmed by the number of choices after narrowing it down to size, technology and brand.

Thank you, in advance.

I'm trying to wade through all the stats, model numbers, etc and make a decision on a HDTV. I've seen several of the Samsung DLPs, and I generally like the picture (and my wife seems to like it too!). [If anyone wants to offer other brands or technologies to look at, I'm open, but I don't expect it on the Samsung DLP HLR thread.]

We've decided on the 56".

Now, I can't get over how many 56" Samsung DLP models there are!

At first, I was following well; I'd see comments like 3rd Gen, 4th Gen, 5th Gen. But now...

I go to web sites and do comparisons:

the 67 appears to have a higher contrast ratio 2500:1 vs 2000:1
will I be able to see this?

the 77 appears to have fewer (legacy) inputs
might not matter to me because I'm (un)fortunately (re)building my HT from scratch.

the 67 has 5th Gen HD vs the 77 HD2+
what's the difference? (I did read some of the earlier portions of this thread, but I couldn't quite pull it together)

are there other differences?

I see a lot of posts about 87 and HD2++; what is everyone expecting and how much better will it be? should I wait?

On a semi related note, if I don't have cable, should I get a unit w/o a cable card?

Do all the models have HD tuners? Is there any advantages in waiting to buy the tuner separately later?

Please forgive me for having so many questions, but I am truly overwhelmed by the number of choices after narrowing it down to size, technology and brand.

Thank you, in advance.

This thread might help your decision:

Just ordered a Samsung HLR5667W
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=543366

BTW, I would be *shocked* if the 87 series did not use the HD2++ (or whatever we are going to call it ;) ). If we got an update CR or saw any mention of DC3, we would know better...
I recently suggested...


Although I haven't seen the unit to verify the pattern, the following excerpt from the Samsung product page for the HLRxx87 leads me to believe it makes use of a wobbulated chip, and not the HD2+

Home > Products > TV, Video & Audio > TV > DLP TV > HL-R5087W
Cinema Smooth 720p Light Engine

Samsung's Cinema Smooth 720p light engine is the culmination of years of industry-leading research and development. It releases the maximum power of the new generation of DMD microdisplays for the most film-like picture. It creates an image with no visible pixel structure and accurate shading and better low-light detail.
The Samsung website seems to only use the phrase "...an image with no visible pixel structure..." when referring to displays with wobbulated chips. This is pure speculation mind you, and given the multiplicity of conflicting info out there we won't know for certain until someone can verify the pattern.

Has anyone seen the xx87 to verify the pattern? Perhaps the DC3, etc. feature set (esp. the "...smaller mirror hinges, reduced gaps between mirrors") is the reasoning behind the "no visible pixel structure" statement.

While I'm on the xx87, I've seen conflicting reports of a VGA input. The manual does not mention a VGA input, but even that data seems suspect in these tumultuous times for microdisplays. Can anyone definitively answer whether or not this set has a VGA in?

:) BJG2005
I believe the new Kirk 5688 series may a good choice for you and I think it's at 5,000:1 CR unless it's been upped to 10K.

Cable Card enables hookup to cable without paying a cable box rental fee but is one way only for now - sacrificing "On Demand" Services - cards may not become 2way for another year or so. Whatever you do get HD Broadcast's as it will blow you away. Watching sports or even American Idol which I normally never watch are friggin amazing on HD - Discovery HD, PBS, Concerts, INHD Travel and You are There Baby! I cannot wait to see it on a 67 or 71" 1080P as it amazes me on a 32" LCD right now what will big screen do.

As to buying which set/components sometimes you have to buy the farm to get the horse you want but may not need the cow - sort of like buying a Lexus you may have to take some things you don't need to get what you really want but the good news with Sammy is they have so many flavors you couldn't ask for more choices the next 3-6 months. I recommend you make a matrix chart on Excel if you have it and then go back to UCSB's first page listing as he has everything under the sun and updatd there to determine your best choice. You'll probably never find a more definitive source that he has created at the very beginning of this thread for nearly 6 months. Bravo to UCSB!

OH MY GOD, what have I started now????? :D The only reason I said anything about a HD2++ was to convey what a mess TI has gotten themselves into (and are trying to extricate themself from). We all know 2 is better than 1 and 3 is better than 2, but what happens when we essentially have different product lines with what was probably just an internal numbering system being used to define how "good" the product is? You end up with the mess TI has now. I would suggest that depending on what you will be using your set for (TV, DVDs, Computer) and how sensitive you are to price, picking between the HD4 (.55" 720P) and the HD2++ (.8" 720P) may not be easy to do.

If anyone from TI looks at this forum, I would suggest that TI comes clean, let us know what the various chips are and what you are going to call them. The folks on this forum are very knowledgeable and will be recommending various sets to friends and family. The more we know, the better job we can do at recommending products. As you can see this issue has and continues to cause a great deal of confusion. Thanks, and I will step off the soapbox!

I took matters into to my own hands to day with a download from Universal Remote to my handy-dandy MX-800 of the Samsung Discrete Codes along with codes from the old HLP series. I then made a visit to a local BB store hoping to find a HLR-5067W but couldn't find one and settled for an HLR-4667W.

The discrete power on and off functions both worked.
The DNIE discrete code only activated the DNIE demo - sorry - it won't turn off DNIE.
The aspect mode 16:9 and 4:3 codes worked.

As far as video input modes, I cannot be 100% certain but it seems as though the proper codes work for each source. The TV I tested only had Component 1 hooked up. When I entered the discrete code for other sources, I got a message similar to "Input not connected". I went through Vid, S-Vid, Comp, HDMI, PC and IEE 1394 with the same messages.

It appears that the old HLP codes are compatible with the new HLR models.

I called Samsung Tech support to verify - but the support engineer said that if it is not explained in the manual - it is not supported by Samsung. He further stated that if the discrete codes worked on the HLP that they will work on the HLR. I asked for an escalation to a senior engineer to confirm with no luck. I mentioned the Samsung TV Discreet Key guide posted on their web site but he still insisted discrete codes are not supported. Now how's that for customer support!

Here is the "official" Samsung position from the tech support section on their site:

"The remote control that came with your system cannot transmit discreet IR codes. Consequently, to get the discreet code functions to work, you must purchase a third party programmable/learning remote control that generates IR codes. This remote control must be able to accept the discreet codes published by Samsung.
You should be able to find information about remotes and remote dealers at websites such as http://www.remotecentral.com.

If you would like to see a list of discreet codes for some Samsung TVs, please click Discrete IR Codes Revised.pdf in the Attached File field above. "

I have added the new TI chip descriptors to POST #1. These are DLP chip descriptions that are in the following format (.85" 1080p). I have also left our original descriptions in place, ie. xHD4.

schaffer970, could you please quickly check the chip descriptions to insure that I have not made any mistakes I was working from memory. I know you have done more work in this area than any of us.

I have also added a reference to the HD2++ (.8" 720p) chip in the 87 series section. I indicate that at this point in time we do not believe that it is in the model. But, Chris has started a 87 series owners thread and he feels that the contrast ratio is improved on the 87 series so I guess this is something that we can keep our eye on.

UCSB, the only thing I would change is the designation for the xx87. I would just leave it at the HD2+ (no size/resolution) - Samsung is still using HD2+ for the 77 models so I think that that is safe. Everything else looks good to me.

I have been looking at the Samsung dlps since they came out, and have been waiting for the quality to improve. I have limited space (45"W x 32"H x 19"D) (built in entertainment center), so the 46" dlps are the best fit. I was excited about the new 4677, only to find out it has the hd2+ chip.....then I was excited about the cheaper 4667, only to hear all of the complaints on the forums about audio sync issues, picture quality..etc.... So, then I saw the new Panasonic PT-44LCX65...size is perfect...but again I see complaints and people saying it isn't as good as the Samsung dlps. I would love to buy a 1080p tv, but they don't make a 46" model, and people say that is too small to see the benefits anyways. If they made a slim bezel 50", that would be perfect. I want a tv within the next 1-3 months max...any advice??? Any new models coming out that might be better and fit in my limited space?? Thanks

OK-Went into CCity today to view the new Panny 44" RPLCD. Not in yet. They had (in a box, not on display yet) a HL-R4266W. A GREAT price. 42" is what I want. New TI chip, etc.....any good; thoughts please; I may buy Sunday for the sale is over on Monday.