According to the block diagram, the Samsung 1080p use a SiI9021 which is HDMI 1.0 compliant only.

block diagram (https://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=528328&native_or_pdf=pdf)

SiI9021 (http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?id=19&ptid=1)
Well I guess that knocks off one of the open issues. So we better hope the processor in these new sets is real fast so we can avoid any of the delays between source and picture. This was the only real option for gamers but the STB and DVD folks had a chance if the sets could keep the 5.1 in tact and in synch.

Slimjim -

"According to the block diagram, the Samsung 1080p use a SiI9021 which is HDMI 1.0 compliant only"

I'm bumed if it doesn't pass 5.1.

Just what we need, another message about screen size!

I've been putting off making a decision between the 6168 and the 6768 for some time now for my 16 foot viewing distance (though the kids often sit considerably closer). I'd love to go for the larger size, but the $1300 difference has been my hang up. Anyway, I just got the call from TVA that they are ready to ship me the 6168 if I'm ready (order was placed 6/10). So, to help me make a decision I've used office paper to replicate the screen sizes (61" in white, 67" in blue) and have hung this in back of my 32" Proscan. Either way it looks like I'll be pretty happy with the increase in screen size!

I've taken pictures at 10', 12', and 16' (respectively) feet away in the event that they might help anyone else in a similar situation.

Review your room layout. Put the TV on a stand and bring it in a little closer and the 61" will be nice. If you are uncomfortable with spending the extra money, you will probably be able to place your TV and furniture in a slightly different setup and get a great result. I'm not sure that putting a big set where you have it in the photos is going to look attractive ... so a little more planning may pay off.

So is it settled, that if one wants 5.1 surround sound one must send the audio from a stb and dvd directly to an AV receiver via toslink (or coax), by-passing the tv? That's the take home message I'm getting.

Slimjim -

I can read this to say that the chip implements hdmi 1.1 (1st line above) and is backward compatible with hdmi 1.0 devices (4th from last line above). Although the diagram only shows stereo.

I'm bumed if it doesn't pass 5.1.

Oops you are correct, I missed that.

Whats the problem with that. That's the way I have everything connected now, besides the receiver can apply an audio delay if there is any lag.

Whats the problem with that. That's the way I have everything connected now, besides the receiver can apply an audio delay if there is any lag.

This audio connection (directly from source to AVR) is also what I now use (with my 6163), but people have indicated that this is (or may be) the origin of the synch problem (though I've never noticed such). But I'm not a gamer. And my AVR (Pioneer 1014) doesn't have an audio delay adjustment.

Thanks for your replies Rob and UCSB. My wife took one look at what I did and said (A) "You're crazy" and (B) "the white (aka, 61") looks right, the other one takes up to much wall." Rather than feel too frustrated, it's somewhat a relief and we'll have the extra cash to bank. I'll be considering UCSB's suggestions. Cheers!

slimjim -

I edited my post to delete the discussion on 1.0 vice 1.1. After looking at the product brief, it says: "PanelLink Cinema products are fully HDMI 1.0 compliant." Which seems pretty clear that if doesn't do 1.1.

TMSKLIZ -

How much heat does the TX-NR1000 put out. I don't see that spec on the Onkyo web site. One reason I didn't get a plasma is because of the high heat output. I like the Sunfire Receiver because of the low power draw, but no hdmi.

All: I find it a little strange that Microsoft and Samsung would team together for gaming and not have a solution to the lip sync/ video lag problems which can be so disturbing. The same goes for HDMI 5.1 audio. With all the video marvels, transmission/ reception of 5.1 audio should be the proverbial "no brainer."

What I am wondering is:

A. Has Samsung fixed the problem with the 68/78 series?

B. If not, will they introduce an upgrade/ retrofit?

C. Will it take next year's model to introduce a fix?

I haven't placed my order and I'm not going to until I have a better idea of what is going on and how it may effect my viewing pleasure. These issues are not necessarily show stoppers for me, but I want to understand what they are and how they may be fixed before I make what is a fairly major purchase.

I am really looking forward to some user reports this weekend.

Tell it the way it is!!

I think the best news on this whole topic of audio/video sync is that its so fundamental and critical to avoid Samsung receiving 90% of these TVs back in Korea as returned product, they MUST have addressed it.

Just about everyone who buys a 1080p big screen TV for $3000 to $6000 has 5.1 dolby digital sound and will not accept 2 channel stereo. And most people in this customer group use an external amp and speakers, not just the little tiny ones in the TV. So they must have kept the video latency small enough to allow the audio to bypass the TV or they must have enabled the HDMI 5.1 in/toslink 5.1 out TV loop-through. One of these two things will turn out to be true. As a gamer, I guess I hope they managed to keep the latency so small I don't need to loop the audio through the TV!

Samsung is too competent to completely screw up something like this. That being said, they might not support our ideal configurations and they don't seem to take the gamer market all that seriously.

I have some sympathy for Samsung with regard to the video latency problem as I have some design experience with high-speed real-time data processing systems not unlike these TVs. Basically any amount of processing can be accomplished given enough processing horsepower running in parallel and a deep enough queue to hold data while the processors chew on it. The latency resulting from this approach is directly proportional to the depth of the data queue. It sounds like everyone on here is pretty well educated and aware of the amazing amount of processing that needs to occur on these video streams. Between all the A/D, decompression, resolution conversion, noise filtering, edge detection/smoothing, etc. its pretty crazy. Its actually amazing that they can keep up with 30fps at these resolutions with less than 0.25 seconds of latency.

But as a gamer I'm worried. We shall see.

I agree with the previous person who said that for non-interactive media (ie not games), a programmable delay on the audio stream (introduced by the AV receiver or some other widget I've not seen marketed but could be built) can equalize any skew introduced by the TV on the video stream. One problem with this approach is that many AV receivers don't have a programmable delay setting. Many customers are not willing to replace their receiver to get one with this function - they would just return the TV. Another problem is that I think the introduced video latency may vary depending on the input type (HDMI vs component), resolution (720p vs. 1080i), and TV settings (DNR on/off). This wide variation is why there is so much contention/confusion between people on how much latency exists - everyone has a different combination hence a different amount of audio/video skew. How would you like to have to switch that delay setting back and forth between different values depending on if you are playing a DVD or watching your satellite receiver? No thanks.

It would be great if some professional reviewers could rig up a latency measurement system and start testing all these manufacturers, models, inputs, modes, etc. in a consistent way to report the numbers. It would be pretty easy to do actually. A DVD with a precise simultaneous video and audio event combined with a fast computer camera/microphone to capture the video image and sound would do it. I'd love to see that data.

-Dan

All: I find it a little strange that Microsoft and Samsung would team together for gaming and not have a solution to the lip sync/ video lag problems which can be so disturbing. The same goes for HDMI 5.1 audio. With all the video marvels, transmission/ reception of 5.1 audio should be the proverbial "no brainer."

What I am wondering is:

A. Has Samsung fixed the problem with the 68/78 series?

B. If not, will they introduce an upgrade/ retrofit?

C. Will it take next year's model to introduce a fix?

I haven't placed my order and I'm not going to until I have a better idea of what is going on and how it may effect my viewing pleasure. These issues are not necessarily show stoppers for me, but I want to understand what they are and how they may be fixed before I make what is a fairly major purchase.

I am really looking forward to some user reports this weekend.

Tell it the way it is!!


Yep, I've heard the reassuring news about Microsoft and Samsung having that relationship. Its definitely a hopeful tidbit - I hope its true! You are right that its hard to imagine them forming a relationship like this without planning to use this years 1080p TV's as the flagship demo product and without them performing at top-notch levels.

And I second your call for more real life reports right away! Those of you who have received your TVs, get to work!

Thanks,
Dan

I must report an interesting (?) WAF I experienced when stopping by to see the 5078 today. (I've had a hlp6163 for almost a year, but am planning to replace it with a 7178 [or possibly Mits 73727 if they look better, which I doubt]). The problem is that my wife really LIKES the 6163, even though I tell her that the 7178 is going to be so much better. And to make things worse, she likes the frame of the 6163--the gracefully sloped silver speaker section, and matte black border--better than that of the xx78 (with its shiny black border and angled silver speaker section). I tell her that one won't pay any attention to these features, but she is not convinced. She will certainly go along with my plans, but her enthusiasm is lacking; perhaps it will be rekindled by the PQ of the xx78. (Actually, I have to admit that I also like the frame of the xx63 better than that of the xx78!)

Just about everyone who buys a 1080p big screen TV for $3000 to $6000 has 5.1 dolby digital sound and will not accept 2 channel stereo. -Dan

Hi Dan,

If the HDMI is restricted to 2 channel stereo this will only affect people
using cable cards since the use of cable cards requires sending multi-channel
audio to the receiver FROM the display unit. I would be surprised if
this were case and we should have an answer on this within the
next day or two.

Those using set top boxes can send multi-channel audio directly
to their receiver via optical or digital coax.

Best regards,

Tony

For Those In The Phoenix Az Area The Fry's On Thunderbird Avenue Told Me They Put A 6168 On The Floor Today.

For Those In The Phoenix Az Area The Fry's On Thunderbird Avenue Told Me They Put A 6168 On The Floor Today.

I can confirm that the Fry's in Fremont/Milpitas (CA) has the 6168 on display. They have a 5677 displayed right next to it. This provided a great baseline for evaluating the 6168. They also have a 4667 and a 5667 on display. I normally review TV's at Magnolia HiFi, so I am unfamiliar with the video distribution system they have at Fry's. But, it is not very good.

I can confirm that the Fry's in Fremont/Milpitas (CA) has the 6168 on display. They have a 5677 displayed right next to it. This provided a great baseline for evaluating the 6168. They also have a 4667 and a 5667 on display. I normally review TV's at Magnolia HiFi, so I am unfamiliar with the video distribution system they have at Fry's. But, it is not very good.

Sounds like all of the reporting from Fry's Electronic stores has pretty much
been the same...

I just edited my "review" to mention that it was HDNet but at your typical store HD loop quality (average). It was the end of the Nascar program with some between-shows filler. No way to change the channel. Connection was via component. The TV had just been put out (I was the first person to see it) so could probably have benefitted from basic configuration and calibration that I didn't have time to do.

P.S. I am not panning this TV, more pointing out that there may be questionable incremental value to a 50" 1080p set.

If you ask at Fry's, they can change the satellite feed to another channel. I tried a few, including Discovery HD and HD Net. I should have gone over and looked at the settings on the satellite tuner ... clearly something was not right (480p?).

... pointing out that there may be questionable incremental value to a 50" 1080p set.

This is a very sensible suggestion. I think it has always been clear that the advantages of 1080p will be greatest for the large screen sizes, viewed relatively closely ( < 2 x screen diagonal), and that the advantage for smaller screens is questionable. The open question has been whether the enhanced CR, and other such advances unrelated to resolution, would make it worthwhile for the smaller sizes.

Yeah, Fry's signal distribution is poor. And that may be generous.

I think the receiver they use has a configuration setting for its output and they set it at 1080i. I suspect it always puts out 1080i and when necessary upconverts (badly) any SD images. So the Samsung set's info screen that reports what input it is receiving gives a deceptive view of reality.

It will be interesting to see who's upconverters do a better job. More and more DVD players, HD cable boxes, etc. are adding upconversion and eventually I think they all will have that feature. The Samsung sets also have an upconversion feature (everything including SD, 720p, 1080i, on any input, etc. to 1080p). My guess is that there will be a noticeable difference in the quality of image processing and upconversion from company to company and product to product. It may actually be better to setup the DVD player to output progressive SD rather than let it upconvert and let the TV make the conversion. Another item I'm looking forward to some comparisons/reviews from people who own the new Samsung TVs and upconverting DVD players!

With regard to the chain about the 50" 1080p vs. 50" 720p: I feel like I saw a really big difference in brightness, contrast and color. The 1080p really stood out as superior at Magnolia in Palo Alto, CA. Of course everyone has a budget and the 720p is a great set, but anyone on the DLP market now owes it to themselves to look hard at the 1080p with a good input signal so they can make an informed decision. If you decide on a 720p, I suggest you wait a few months as I think widespread availability of the 1080p will force the 720p prices to be substantially lowered in the near future.

-Dan

This is a very sensible suggestion. I think it has always been clear that the advantages of 1080p will be greatest for the large screen sizes, viewed relatively closely ( < 2 x screen diagonal), and that the advantage for smaller screens is questionable. The open question has been whether the enhanced CR, and other such advances unrelated to resolution, would make it worthwhile for the smaller sizes.

Right. I am still going through this analysis myself.

Even though I am considering the 67 inch model, since my viewing distance is 14 feet, there still might not be a big difference in quality between the 1080p models and the 720p units.

Hopefully I will get the chance to do some side by side comparisons.....which will be difficult

Right. I am still going through this analysis myself.

Even though I am considering the 67 inch model, since my viewing distance is 14 feet, there still might not be a big difference in quality between the 1080p models and the 720p units.

Hopefully I will get the chance to do some side by side comparisons.....which will be difficult

The only 1080p DLP Samsung model I have seen was the 6168 at Fry's with
rabbit ears as the source - they would not hook up a DVD player to the set.

I have seen the 52in Mits 1080p DLP at Ken Krane's and my impression is that even
from 20 feet away it is worth the upgrade just for 480i DVD! The blacks were inky
black, the shadow detail was amazing - definitely the best PQ I have seen on a
Rear Projection set at any price to date! It was like looking at a 52 in. CRT!

I should have my Sammy 6168 sometime next week and I plan on watching
the same scenes on it as I did on the Mits. My expection is that it will be in the
same ball park due to the same basic technology.

From from what I saw at Ken Krane's there is no question in my mind that
there is an enourmous difference in PQ versus any previous DLP set I have seen.

I expect we will get mixed reviews from the reporting done from looking at sets
in the stores since it will be difficult to have a standard source. But I will be
very surprised if anyone who tweaks one of these sets in their homes is
not blown away by the PQ.

I went by the Fry’s in Anaheim CA today to view the new Sammy. Looked at their 6168 and played with the settings a bit.

Note - their source sucks. In fact they had it on SD when I walked in, which didn’t look good at all. The source is rabbit ears in the steel building.
I asked if I could get a HD channel and they told me if I turned to 28 or 50 I could get some HD channels. They still had no DVD or quality source hooked up.

Contrast – Outstanding most blacks were close to perfect, whites were quite bright. This set clearly stood out from the others on display once I got it on a HD channel.

Color – as mentioned the color was extremely vivid. Very realistic

Detail – The amount of detail that I could see was truly amazing – every wrinkle on the actor’s faces eyes etc.

Brightness – Tried it in standard mode, enhanced and movie. Standard made this set nearly twice as bright as the others, very impressive.

Pixilation – did see this on occasion but was mainly on SD with poor reception so I don’t think it was fair to judge on this. HD has occasional pixilation and jitter but I suspect signal related as I saw a few times signal lost messages.

Menus – These were great, especially the custom color setting where there is a stunning photo and the screen is split where you see before and after as you make your adjustments makes it easy to see the changes you are making. No comparison with 720 vs. 1080 on photos with high resolution which should also translate to quality 1080 I reception as well. Text on the screen is where this is also very noticeable, clean text versus jagged on the 720 screens.

Screen glare – I liked the screen much better than others. The area was fairly dark but there was light which did reflect somewhat but at least I couldn’t see reflections of items behind me in the store as I could on some of the Mitsubishis.


Bottom line we are in for a real treat. It will be worth the wait.

Rob Tomlin -

I'd recommend the 67 at 14' easily. THX and Samsung viewing spec's rate it at around 8.4' for 16:9 and add the quality of 1080i(p) and HD broadcasts.

I don't understand the constant analysis of where one sits in a theater if you study the layout and geometry of a movie theater. Whether one sits in the front row or the back row the visual acuity of what you are looking at fills the entire wall in front of you and no such thing is replicated with a 1080P 67" unless your room is only 6' wide - (very unlikely unless your in a NY studio apt.).

That may demo a preference but it does not relate to a 16:9 screen that only takes a fraction of your visual acuity in your home and the wall it sets against - a true comparsion of that would be an overhead projector where in fact it can take up most of the wall and they usually exceed 100". Test it by going to a store and viewing 60+" sets for a few hours or many visits and you'll find it's not as large as you think especially at 14' - or better yet look at the Q006 70" thread and most folks are viewing it at significantly less than 14' without a problem. :D

Authorized Service.
I live about 60 miles from a authorized Samsung service provider. Samsung's customer service said repair could take up to two weeks and requirers special authorization. Anyone have any experience in a similar situation? I am in middle TN. I expect I'll have the same service situation no mater what brand large DLP I buy (even from the only local Tosiba and RCA dealers).

westa6969

When people are discussing where they sit in the theater, the concept is not whether it fills a wall in front of you. It is the overall proportion of your personal field of vision that is filled that is being discussed. This extends much further to the left and right of the full screen wall in the movie theater. When you sit at the back, you see much more of the side walls or black field around the screen. This is what they are trying to replicate in their home. Obviously if you have a large enough room to sit that far back in your home theater, then a much larger screen is needed.
What I believe is that the true movie experience is really a balancing act of the sound and vision. You can reduce the television size much smaller than you think, if your sound field is much larger. The audio envelopes you. I would not compromise imaging of speakers just to get a larger TV. I think the bigger crime for personal home theaters that I see today is an imbalance of large tvs with inexpensive audio.

Sounds like all of the reporting from Fry's Electronic stores has pretty much
been the same...


I was at Fry's in Burbank yesterday afternoon. I couldn't find any of the 1080P Samsungs, I finally asked and was told they do have two 6168s. But, they are buried in a mountain of new projection sets. On the sales floor, around the audio and video demonstration rooms, even in the sales register area, they are as much as three high and sometimes four deep! The sales people told me that they will have them out sometime this week. I don't know what happened, but I've never seen anything like this that this Fry's.

Lee

went to Tweeter last night and saw the 1080p Sony Quallia next to a smaller 720p Sony. Impressive but not much of a difference. Even the salesman was saying that most people can't tell the difference between the two.

Right. I am still going through this analysis myself.

Even though I am considering the 67 inch model, since my viewing distance is 14 feet, there still might not be a big difference in quality between the 1080p models and the 720p units.

Hopefully I will get the chance to do some side by side comparisons.....which will be difficultRob, I sit 13 feet from my TV...I started with a HLN567 which I still own...after watching the 56" set for a couple of days my entire family felt it was too small for our viewing...8 months later we bought a HLP6163 and for the first couple of weeks it seem fine even had some wow effect due to size...a couple more weeks later...it seem to shrink in size daily...I don't have the HLP6163 anymore...the point I am getting at is go as big as you can...I could go with a 71" but have decided the 67" will be perfect at 13 feet.

Rob Tomlin -

I'd recommend the 67 at 14' easily. THX and Samsung viewing spec's rate it at around 8.4' for 16:9 and add the quality of 1080i(p) and HD broadcasts.

I don't understand the constant analysis of where one sits in a theater if you study the layout and geometry of a movie theater. Whether one sits in the front row or the back row the visual acuity of what you are looking at fills the entire wall in front of you and no such thing is replicated with a 1080P 67" unless your room is only 6' wide - (very unlikely unless your in a NY studio apt.).

That may demo a preference but it does not relate to a 16:9 screen that only takes a fraction of your visual acuity in your home and the wall it sets against - a true comparsion of that would be an overhead projector where in fact it can take up most of the wall and they usually exceed 100". Test it by going to a store and viewing 60+" sets for a few hours or many visits and you'll find it's not as large as you think especially at 14' - or better yet look at the Q006 70" thread and most folks are viewing it at significantly less than 14' without a problem. :D


I think you misunderstood my post.

In no way do I think that 67 inches is too big for my 14 foot viewing distance. Quite the contrary! I have a projector as well with a 123 inch screen......and my viewing distance is only 14 feet!

My question was whether the increased resolution (and other benefits of 1080p) would be noticeable at that relatively long viewing distance.

I appreciate tonydeluce's comments in this regard!

I think you misunderstood my post.

In no way do I think that 67 inches is too big for my 14 foot viewing distance. Quite the contrary! I have a projector as well with a 123 inch screen......and my viewing distance is only 14 feet!

My question was whether the increased resolution (and other benefits of 1080p) would be noticeable at that relatively long viewing distance.

I appreciate tonydeluce's comments in this regard!MY HT....SWEET!!!

Rob, I sit 13 feet from my TV...I started with a HLN567 which I still own...after watching the 56" set for a couple of days my entire family felt it was too small for our viewing...8 months later we bought a HLP6163 and for the first couple of weeks it seem fine even had some wow effect due to size...a couple more weeks later...it seem to shrink in size daily...I don't have the HLP6163 anymore...the point I am getting at is go as big as you can...I could go with a 71" but have decided the 67" will be perfect at 13 feet.

I predict that you will wish you had gotten the 71"-er!

The only 1080p DLP Samsung model I have seen was the 6168 at Fry's with
rabbit ears as the source - they would not hook up a DVD player to the set.

I have seen the 52in Mits 1080p DLP at Ken Krane's and my impression is that even
from 20 feet away it is worth the upgrade just for 480i DVD! The blacks were inky
black, the shadow detail was amazing - definitely the best PQ I have seen on a
Rear Projection set at any price to date! It was like looking at a 52 in. CRT!

I should have my Sammy 6168 sometime next week and I plan on watching
the same scenes on it as I did on the Mits. My expection is that it will be in the
same ball park due to the same basic technology.

From from what I saw at Ken Krane's there is no question in my mind that
there is an enourmous difference in PQ versus any previous DLP set I have seen.



This is very interesting, the first comparison I've seen of the Mits and Sammy 1080p's; and I gather that your feel that they were comparably good, right? Probably not surprising, since they have the same TI chip, and the present HD2+ sets from the two companies are very comparable. I'm dying to see the Sammy 71" (7178) and the Mits 73" (73727) sets right next to one another! [Has anybody here looked closely at this Mits set? The only thing I see that is missing, compared to the Sammy, is the 1080p/60hz VGA input. Is this a major lacking?]

vimalp, do you mind tuning to your HDMI input and then checking if DNIe is greyed out in the TV's menu? This should confirm that DNIe is not used on the HDMI input (which was the way the older DLP sets worked).

I predict that you will wish you had gotten the 71"-er!I hope not...my wife is about to ship me out :eek: The problem I have with going any bigger is the width...with the HLP6163 when I sat real close 7-8' I noticed my neck was getting tired and painful from looking from side to side...as I sat back 10' feet it was less painful...so that's how I came up with a 67" should be fine at 12-13' away...I hope this makes some sense since I am typing this with about 1.5 hours sleep.

I hope not...my wife is about to ship me out :eek: The problem I have with going any bigger is the width...with the HLP6163 when I sat real close 7-8' I noticed my neck was getting tired and painful from looking from side to side...as I sat back 10' feet it was less painful...so that's how I came up with a 67" should be fine at 12-13' away...I hope this makes some sense since I am typing this with about 1.5 hours sleep.

10 ft for a 61"-er is 2 x screen diag (120"/61"), and this same ratio for your 67"-er would be 11 ft. So if you sit at 12-13 ft away, you will be seeing a smaller screen than you did at 10 ft from your 61" set.

PS 2 x diag for a 71"-er would be sitting at 11.8 ft; so you can try talking your wife into this one!

Actually, westa, the movie theater example is the exact same thing.

You keep spewing THX like they are the arbiter of this, so let's talk THX. The recommended viewing distance has everything to do with the portion of your visual field filled by the screen.

I personally want the screen to fill only enough that I can see the borders outside the screen. Otherwise, I get a little dizzy in fast-motion sequences. So I sit near the back in theaters and keep my screen smaller at home than some. The identical principle is applying for my personal screen-szie selectiction as it is for THX.

:rolleyes:
When's the last time anyone here went to a Theater and paid to view a Small Screen that would fill 20% of the backwall?

What if the Screen in the theater comprised 20% of the wall in front of you would you sit at the back row? Me thinks not!

Why is every Panel Maker manufacturing 1080P in sizes over 60" and most in 70+ now and above now and Plasma 65 and now Sharp 65" LCD, and Sony debuted SXRD in 70" with Q006, overhead projectors - It's called immersion. Ever hear of an IMAX Theater - they aren't trying to impress anyone with a regular field of vision they surround you in the size and sounds. And to that member suggesting that I have cheap Surround System I have several thousand in my sound system and it's all new and since I live in a Condo I cannot blow the walls off the place but what I have isn't cheap and I live in a Luxury Condo larger than most peoples homes not some cookie cutter Condo and to suggest my surround sound system is cheap and not immersive when you cannot see it all listed here and since it's a custom configuration and you've never heard it so I don't know what the insult at suggesting my sound system was cheap was all about. My challenge in a Condo is not making the sound so immersive as to break the Assn rules - so obviously I must strike a balance with neighbors and still have quality 5.1 surround sound.

How many posts are on this entire Forum of people complaining they bought a Screen TOO LARGE? Show us the proof wise guys! The only complaints I've seen are people visiting and viewing someone elses and they aren't used to it. Come on provide the feedback rather than B.S..

Instead of coming back with subjective comment return with links from this forum of people that have complained that their TV is too large - with 153,000 plus members and no such return that deflates your argument and in fact the opposite is true 100 to one - just check the people that express regrets a few weeks later they didn't go larger - come on link the members to support your case.

Go on Flame but I challenge those skeptics to support your claims with Objective data from the members on this forum and the polls that have been done here. Anyone responding here regret they didn't go smaller in their HT or the Movie House they visit? :mad:

vimalp, do you mind tuning to your HDMI input and then checking if DNIe is greyed out in the TV's menu? This should confirm that DNIe is not used on the HDMI input (which was the way the older DLP sets worked).

6168W doesn't have a setting to turn off DNIe. There is one menu item to turn on a "DNIe Demo" mode. This mode splits the image in two. The left hand image is shown with DNIe and the right hand without. I couldn't see much of a difference between the two (but then, I was watching SD content).

The last time I was in a movie theater (sitting about half-way, or a bit further back) I did an experiment: held up my ballpoint pen at arm's length and measured how many 'pen lengths' the screen width was. Then I did the same thing when I got back home. I was quite surprised by the result: to have the same viewing angle, I would have had to sit ~6-7 ft from my 6163, much closer than I actually sit (which is ~ 9.5-10 ft). I think the reason is that 1), we are so used to viewing a tv as a 'small screen', and 2) good tv's are much brighter than a movie theater screen. Anyway, I'm planning to go for 70+ " for my same viewing distance, but I fully acknowledge that this is a personal preference thing and certainly don't disparage anyone that likes it further back.

PS: Also, there is quite a bit of difference in having a tv in a 'home theater' mode than having it as just one item in a general purpose living or family room.

The last time I was in a movie theater (sitting about half-way, or a bit further) I did an experiment: held up my ballpoint pen at arm's length and measured how many 'pen lengths' the screen width was. Then I did the same thing when I got back home. I was quite surprised by the result: to have the same viewing angle, I would have had to sit ~6-7 ft from my 6163, much closer than I actually sit (which is ~ 9.5-10 ft). I think the reason is that 1), we are so used to viewing a tv as a 'small screen', and 2) good tv's are much brighter than a movie theater screen. Anyway, I'm planning to go for 70+ " for my same viewing distance, but I fully acknowledge that this is a personal preference thing and certainly don't disparage anyone that likes it further back.

PS: Also, there is quite a bit of difference in having a tv in a 'home theater' mode than having it as just one item in a general purpose living or family room.Very interesting reply...I will have to try that.

You guys have just been 0wned by Westa!

TVA still hasn't returned my message, way to go TVA!

By this wkend we should see a few posts from the people who should receive their 6168 sets this week, Some one please hook up an XBOX & give us feedback on the gaming experience!!!!

You guys have just been 0wned by Westa!
OK... I'll admit I'm not up on pop culture...

TMSKILZ - what the heck does this mean? :confused:

By this wkend we should see a few posts from the people who should receive their 6168 sets this week, Some one please hook up an XBOX & give us feedback on the gaming experience!!!!

Send me your xbox and I'll do it :)

OK... I'll admit I'm not up on pop culture...

Its leet speak. I wouldn't worry too much about it I can barely keep track of it all myself. Kids these days, abbreviate everything they can, mispell wherever they can, and expect us to keep up. I'm only 30 and I already can't keep up with some folks.

Go get'em westa!! :p

I currently sit 12 feet away from a 55'' Mits. When my 6768W gets here...I'm not moving my sofa and chairs one inch! ;) It would defeat the purpose IMHO.

6168W doesn't have a setting to turn off DNIe. There is one menu item to turn on a "DNIe Demo" mode. This mode splits the image in two. The left hand image is shown with DNIe and the right hand without. I couldn't see much of a difference between the two (but then, I was watching SD content).

Sorry, that's what I meant. Can you do a DNIe demo mode on HDMI input? If so, then it means that DNIe is implemented on the digital video path and doesn't just affect composite/svideo/component. It'd be annoying to know you are forced to use DNIe on all inputs, but from your reports (and others), the picture is still excellent.

:rolleyes:

Why is every Panel Maker manufacturing 1080P in sizes over 60" and most in 70+ now and above now and Plasma 65 and now Sharp 65" LCD, and Sony debuted SXRD in 70" with Q006, overhead projectors - It's called immersion. Ever hear of an IMAX Theater - they aren't trying to impress anyone with a regular field of vision they surround you in the size and sounds. And to that member suggesting that I have cheap Surround System I have several thousand in my sound system and it's all new and since I live in a Condo I cannot blow the walls off the place but what I have isn't cheap and I live in a Luxury Condo larger than most peoples homes not some cookie cutter Condo and to suggest my surround sound system is cheap and not immersive when you cannot see it all listed here and since it's a custom configuration and you've never heard it so I don't know what the insult at suggesting my sound system was cheap was all about.
:mad:

That's a lot of ranting and one heck of a run on sentence.

I don't believe the previous poster insulted your system at all but commented that good sound can improve the experience. No need to blow a blood vessel.

In regards to screen size, people have bought into "bigger is better" for quite a while. How long ago did they start selling FPTV and RPTV with an incredibly horrible picture? I remember seeing these sets blowing up VHS and SD material to insane sizes compared to the CRT sets of the day. They too used the same bigger is better argument. The set makers are more than happy to market to you in that case.

I'm with Tony on his comment about personal preference. I'm finally looking to move beyond my Sony 36XBR400 which has served me well with it's incredible picture even with full sunlight pouring in the room. It also handles SD better than anything else I've seen. For many, SD is still the majority of what people watch. I've had my HTPC set up doing HDTV since 2000 and it will be nice to see it on a much bigger screen (16:9 on the sony is pretty small).

Whew. When i first came to this site,I started off on thread 165 or so and i started reading and found myself overwhelmed at how little i knew.(I bought a 5685 at the end of may and some mix up acurred and told was no longer available.So they said they would honor my purchase with a 5688 upgrade.So iI had to investigate as to what this new model was,and here i be.)So to find out what this was buzz was all about i had to go to the beginning of this forum and start anew,and what an exalant adventureis has been.Every link that was posted i followed.Like westa i have notepads filled with info.
I must say that the people here and ther comments are informative,intellegent and common sense.Made me feel i was apart of it from the start.
It has taken me about 10 days none stop reading this info,it read better than a best seller novel.
UCSB you have done a most awesome job keeping all the info together and informative.But what struck me most is the thought, caring,opened minded advice you showed with the many people who lost at what this new generation of technology is bringin to us.And I myself,as you stated "lets have fun doing this."you have wisdom beyound your years.I thank You
shaffer970 have to admit think you were the most exicting to read.Reminded me of an investagating reporter running into the editors office door,clutching manuals above your head saying,"Look what i just found".Your resource investigating is a marvel in its self.
There have been many others who have also contributed information(all who posted)that i thank for thier insights, ideas and corniness which made this so fun.
Myself I think this forum would sell better than Harry Potter and maybe,maybe Samsung should use it as thier press release

Any comment on whether there is PQ loss going through a DVR box from Comcast Cable (I don't know what units they use in south NJ)? I have a appt for them to bring a box this Saturday after my 6168 hopefully arrives Friday. I ask because the picture is degraded going through my Series 2 TiVo to my crappy 27" SD television. I currently split my cable so I can watch without passing through the TiVo when desired.

It seems crazy to tolerate any signal degradation. I don't know if the $999 HD TiVo's are better? I do know that DVR capability is a must.

Good Evening All:

If you glance over in the Samsung 1080p Owners thread there's a awesome insight into the Lip Sync issue. Head over there for the full story but the basic solution is this:

If you switch sources realy fast (so fast that the source name (say DVI) doesn't get a chance to appear on the screen and sync) it WILL lag. However, if you take a second or so and pause while switching inputs, and let the source name blink on the screen, it'll stay in sync.

Wootness in my opinion.

ALSO! My installer isn't ignoring me, his ISP is being a total pain and he has been having trouble receiving my mail, thus we're all good again, I'm hoping he replies to my current message and tells me when I get my TV.

- D

Can't seem to find the post you mentioned. Can you post a link to it

Anyway, how about this: rather than go sequentially through the inputs, waiting for each one to "sync", what if you choose an input from the pick list in the Input section on the main menu?

I think he means the lip sync thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5903658&&#post5903658

Can't seem to find the post you mentioned. Can you post a link to it

Anyway, how about this: rather than go sequentially through the inputs, waiting for each one to "sync", what if you choose an input from the pick list in the Input section on the main menu?

Actually, I think the lip sync post D is talking about is in the Samsung 720p Owners Thread. I saw it myself and thought it was interesting.

The Magnolia HiFi store in San Ramon (CA) has a 5078 setup and operating. They are going to be swapping it out for a 5678 (they have many in inventory) this weekend. I was able to spend as much time with the 5078 as I wanted. I tried DVD's (using a Denon 3910 via HDMI), HD TV and SD TV (both via component). I have some things I have to do this afternoon and evening, but I will write-up my ideas and post them as soon as I can.

I just got a call from the Seattle Magnolia telling me they have a 56" 1080p Samsung on display.

I forgot to ask if it was a 5678 or a 5688.

Rob, I sit 13 feet from my TV...I started with a HLN567 which I still own...after watching the 56" set for a couple of days my entire family felt it was too small for our viewing...8 months later we bought a HLP6163 and for the first couple of weeks it seem fine even had some wow effect due to size...a couple more weeks later...it seem to shrink in size daily...I don't have the HLP6163 anymore...the point I am getting at is go as big as you can...I could go with a 71" but have decided the 67" will be perfect at 13 feet.

Somehow I missed this post before, sorry.

Yes, you are a perfect example of what I was talking about! Those seemingly "huge" screen sizes over 60 inches suddenly don't seem so big after you use it for movie viewing for a while.

And as Westa said, how often do you see people here post, or hear friends say that they got too big of a TV and they wish they had gone smaller? The ONLY time that happens would be because of room asthetics when the TV is NOT on.

westa6969

I think you need to reread my post if you took offense at it. My point is that bigger is not always better. I will give you my professional opinion based on 15 years of designing custom interiors including custom home theater rooms for multi-million dollar homes if you want an objective answer. Most tvs that people put in their everyday rooms are too big for the room. period. It is a simple design aesthetic of proportion that is not being adhered to. Regardless of how the tv looks when its on and the lights are dark, most rooms that are general use must accommodate entertaining and other purposes. Of course, proportion aesthetic does not apply to dedicated home theater rooms and I agree bigger is better. My recommendation was to balance the size of the tv and room as well as the audio experience. The goal of truly enjoyable viewing is an overall experience. I am not buying into bigger is better for biggers sake. I also don't buy into 1024 x768 is true HD, FWIW. But that's for another part of this forum!
I am one of those considering the 5078/5678 and find that this size is an important niche in the high quality tv experience. To discount this matter is not indicative of everyone's needs. I actually wish Samsung would make the 5068. I am partial to the floating screen. I personally like both of these sizes because it allows even better imaging of the front speakers.

... The Samsung sets also have an upconversion feature (everything including SD, 720p, 1080i, on any input, etc. to 1080p). My guess is that there will be a noticeable difference in the quality of image processing and upconversion from company to company and product to product. It may actually be better to setup the DVD player to output progressive SD rather than let it upconvert and let the TV make the conversion. Another item I'm looking forward to some comparisons/reviews from people who own the new Samsung TVs and upconverting DVD players!
...
-Dan

For what it's worth, many of the replies in the Samsung HLRxx67W Owners Thread indicate that for those models, the image of an upconversion from the tv from 480i dvd component source was noticeably inferior to that of an upconverting dvd player dvi/hdmi out into an hdmi input on the tv. Perhaps the HLRxx68/78 models will be different.

I hope your right dabl, that the tv does a great job. Otherwise I think there will be a line to get the new DVDO product or the Dragonfly. I think there are allot of people like me waiting in the wings to see what the now new owners of these sets say.

... Otherwise I think there will be a line to get the new DVDO product or the Dragonfly.
And, it could be a long wait for the Dragonfly. Last word I saw was that the first run of 100 is sold out, some of these 100 will not be delivered until the end of September, and they are no longer taking pre-orders. Just an FYI...

Re: 5.1 via hdmi

If Samsung is using the SiI 9021 chip, then the TV will only pass stereo. If you check here: http://www.siliconimage.com/products/applications.aspx?id=30
You can see that the HDMI Receiver core is 1.1 compliant while the SiI 9021 is only 1.0 compliant. Bummer.

Re: 5.1 via hdmi

If Samsung is using the SiI 9021 chip, then the TV will only pass stereo. If you check here: http://www.siliconimage.com/products/applications.aspx?id=30
You can see that the HDMI Receiver core is 1.1 compliant while the SiI 9021 is only 1.0 compliant. Bummer.

Maybe I am reading this wrong but the way I read it is that it
supports HDMI 1.1 but is also backward compatible with 1.0?

There have been several posts on this board that say you need HDMI 1.1 to use/ process/ transmit 5 channel audio. If so, how is the following quote from the HDMI Page explained?

"Does HDMI support Dolby 5.1 audio and high-resolution audio formats? Yes. From the start, HDMI was defined to carry 8-channels, of 192kHz, 24-bit uncompressed audio, which exceeds all current consumer media formats. In addition, HDMI can carry any flavor of compressed audio format such as Dolby or DTS. (Such compressed formats are the only multi-channel or high-resolution audio formats that can be carried across the older S/PDIF or AES/EBU interfaces.) The fact that the vast majority of HDMI products shipped are two-channel TVs that don’t support more than two-channel audio doesn’t make this any less the case. Most existing HDMI sources can output any compressed stream, and the newer sources can output uncompressed 6-channel, 96kHz audio from a DVD-Audio disk. There are several A/V receivers on the market that can accept and process the 6- or 8-channel audio from HDMI and more are expected to be available shortly. "

What gives?

Woot! My installer said he'd have pricing for me next week, and will even deliver the TV directly to my house, carry it into my room, and install it for me for free as far as I know, woot!

Now I just need that price from him, then decide what components to buy and what to wait on. I've decided to wait on the HDMI cable for the DVD player until I actually buy the DVD player.... However I think I need these immediatley.


- HDMI cable for HD PVR
- Toslink cable for HD PVR to Receiver
- UPS for TV (how important would you think this is? Could I wait a few months, or should I get one now).

Also is the Back UPS ES 500 (supports 300 watt load) (http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE500U) enough to handle the TV? I believe Bill said the DLP's used 230 watts, so is 300 enough head room, or should I bump up to the ES 650 (supports 390 watt load) model?

- D

Actually, westa, the movie theater example is the exact same thing.



I agree.

Westa, sometimes -- well, more than sometimes -- I have no idea what you are talking about.

You again go to a reductio-ad-absurdum argument about a screen at a movie theater filling 20% of the wall, when that's not what I -- or anyone else -- said. But there is a HUGE difference between sitting in the first third and the last third of the theater as far as field of vision filling goes. And the VERY SAME preferences people make in the theater apply at home.

And I have no unkind words about your surround sound at all, so I don't know what that's about. But I do know that IMAX hasn't put the rest of the movie theaters out of business and no one is suggesting that all theaters adopt an IMAX experience. If everyone wanted to have their visual field overfilled, surely all theaters would be headed towards IMAX-like "immersion".

Not everyone wants that. Get it through your head.

Westa, sometimes -- well, more than sometimes -- I have no idea what you are talking about.

You again go to a reductio-ad-absurdum argument about a screen at a movie theater filling 20% of the wall, when that's not what I -- or anyone else -- said. But there is a HUGE difference between sitting in the first third and the last third of the theater as far as field of vision filling goes. And the VERY SAME preferences people make in the theater apply at home.

And I have no unkind words about your surround sound at all, so I don't know what that's about. But I do know that IMAX hasn't put the rest of the movie theaters out of business and no one is suggesting that all theaters adopt an IMAX experience. If everyone wanted to have their visual field overfilled, surely all theaters would be headed towards IMAX-like "immersion".

Not everyone wants that. Get it through your head.

Get it through your cabeza that you've been seriously 0wn3d by Mr Westa! :p

If anyone see's my donkey or camel with my 5688, do me a favor & just shoot it on the spot! Thanks! :(

Get it through your cabeza that you've been seriously 0wn3d by Mr Westa! :p
The benefit of the doubt would dictate that you must be very very young. :rolleyes:

Maybe I am reading this wrong but the way I read it is that it
supports HDMI 1.1 but is also backward compatible with 1.0?

That's what I thought originally, but when you look at the specs, they both state quite clearly at the bottom as to what they support. And, it does mention "backward compatible". Still hoping I'm wrong though. How do the guys that are getting these sets delivered go about checking this out? I'm not that knowledgeable about the audio stuff - but I am learning!

ROGO


Hey Folks, I was trying to be helpful and how could anyone suggest a 14' viewing distance at less than 56" doesn't make sense unless the persons budget or furniture restricted them to that choice -
GO LARGER if you have a distance beyond 8'! :D



Hey why don't you get magnifying glasses? :eek: :D :D

Maybe I am reading this wrong but the way I read it is that it
supports HDMI 1.1 but is also backward compatible with 1.0?


Whether the tv is 1.0 or 1.1 it doesn't matter if the sending device isn't 1.1 also. Even if the tv says to the box, "hey, I'm 1.1 and can support 5.1 so send it to me" The sending box has to also say that its 1.1 and can send out 5.1. I seriously doubt any cable or sat box out there does this. I would also have my doubts that any dvd player unless it came out very very recently does this either.

Just what we need, another message about screen size!

I've been putting off making a decision between the 6168 and the 6768 for some time now for my 16 foot viewing distance (though the kids often sit considerably closer). I'd love to go for the larger size, but the $1300 difference has been my hang up. Anyway, I just got the call from TVA that they are ready to ship me the 6168 if I'm ready (order was placed 6/10). So, to help me make a decision I've used office paper to replicate the screen sizes (61" in white, 67" in blue) and have hung this in back of my 32" Proscan.

I just realized my order was placed on 6/6, not 6/10, as originally stated. I added a warranty on the latter date, thus the confusion. I hope this didn't raise the expectations for you all too much!

Second, if you are hoping to increase the WAF, you might want to go with a larger screen size as the outside and the one you really want as the smaller screen! Live and learn! ;)

What is the thought about CableCards and having 5.1 audio out of the TV to the receiver? Will it work and are there any sync issues? (And for that matter, does anyone out there even use cable cards?) I am getting a 61" 1080p Sammy but I want to cut down on STBs and remotes.

Since a major selling point of HDTV is 5.1 audio and the FCC wants everyone to go CableCard eventuallly, it seems like this would have to work.

But you can't pause live TV.

Mike and others: please explain the following quote.

"Does HDMI support Dolby 5.1 audio and high-resolution audio formats? Yes. From the start, HDMI was defined to carry 8-channels, of 192kHz, 24-bit uncompressed audio, which exceeds all current consumer media formats. In addition, HDMI can carry any flavor of compressed audio format such as Dolby or DTS. (Such compressed formats are the only multi-channel or high-resolution audio formats that can be carried across the older S/PDIF or AES/EBU interfaces.) The fact that the vast majority of HDMI products shipped are two-channel TVs that don’t support more than two-channel audio doesn’t make this any less the case. Most existing HDMI sources can output any compressed stream, and the newer sources can output uncompressed 6-channel, 96kHz audio from a DVD-Audio disk. There are several A/V receivers on the market that can accept and process the 6- or 8-channel audio from HDMI and more are expected to be available shortly. "

"From the start" ought to include HDMI 1.0. If so, then, the capability is there. Whether Samsung fully uses the capability is another issue.

Does anyone REALLY know what ground truth is on this subject?

Hey westa... from what I've seen so far I don't think anyone was trying to attack you or your approach to these things. I appreciate hearing their comments just as much as I appreciate hearing yours.
...tell me any theater that has any setup where my field of vision would encompass 80% of the wall and 20% screen? They don't exist.
All I think rogo was saying about this is that he wasn't talking about screen size in relation to percentage of wall ... of course there aren't any theatres out there that have a screen only 20% the width of the front wall. He was talking about percentage of your field of vision: As we all know, the closer we get to something of constant size, the larger it appears (and the less you see of the surrounding environment, right?). You can of course invert the equation for your living room and relate a fixed distance to a larger or smaller set, and have basically the same discussion -- which is why I think the movie theatre analogy is a particularly appropriate one. It's just another way to look at things, that's all.
...how could anyone suggest a 14' viewing distance at less than 56" doesn't make sense unless the persons budget or furniture restricted them to that choice - Misinforming could have someone get the set in their home and then live with buyers remorse they didn't go larger or return it and have to pay for the shipping or restocking if it's not a TVA PB...
My only point here (which underlies what Mark LP was saying) is that math isn't the only determining factor for many people. Yes, I'm one of those unfortunate souls with budget constraints ;). But I also consciously made a decision that for the small- to medium-sized multi-purpose room I'm placing my new 5078 in, anything larger than 50" or 56" would have dominated the room too much for the aesthetic preferences of my wife and I. The room has to serve other purposes for us. Certainly whenever I have the luxury to turn my basement into a dedicated theatre, then I will place a much greater priority on using the screen size calculators and such.

That's all ... I hope it's all good and you don't take offense at my comments, only trying to clarify what I think I heard others saying. :)

Mike and others: please explain the following quote.

...

"From the start" ought to include HDMI 1.0. If so, then, the capability is there. Whether Samsung fully uses the capability is another issue.

Does anyone REALLY know what ground truth is on this subject?

I agree with you: FWIW, the way I read the quote from the HDMI site indicates to me that our probable limitations of seeing 5.1 via HDMI on the new Samsung sets has nothing to do with the ability of the HDMI protocol to do it. It has everything to do with the implementation on the sending and receiving devices, and what they require of each other. Lovely, ain't it? Sorry, though -- I don't REALLY know anything, just my best guess. ;)

What is the thought about CableCards and having 5.1 audio out of the TV to the receiver? Will it work and are there any sync issues? (And for that matter, does anyone out there even use cable cards?) I am getting a 61" 1080p Sammy but I want to cut down on STBs and remotes.

Since a major selling point of HDTV is 5.1 audio and the FCC wants everyone to go CableCard eventuallly, it seems like this would have to work.

I think this is exactly what the optical out from the sets is for. I think we have all be pretty confident that the built-in tuners (over the air/cable card) would output 5.1 over the optical output. The question has always been if we input audio through the HDMI port could we get 5.1 back out through the optical out? Still working on that answer. :)

I think we have all be pretty confident that the built-in tuners (over the air/cable card) would output 5.1 over the optical output. The question has always been if we input audio through the HDMI port could we get 5.1 back out through the optical out? Still working on that answer. :)

Agree 100%.

I think this is exactly what the optical out from the sets is for. I think we have all be pretty confident that the built-in tuners (over the air/cable card) would output 5.1 over the optical output. The question has always been if we input audio through the HDMI port could we get 5.1 back out through the optical out? Still working on that answer. :)

But you are in a pretty good position to answer it for us too! Do you have an HDMI DVD player?!

Schaffer: Thank You!

I look forward to your answer about 5.1 through the HDMI!!!!!

But you are in a pretty good position to answer it for us too! Do you have an HDMI DVD player?!

Unfortunately no.

I've got a 5078 and a DVD-HD950 on their way ... I plan to run the 950's video to the tv via HDMI. I prefer to run the optical audio straight from the 950 to my AVR, but I will test the other route as well. Keeping fingers crossed that I get the equipment before the weekend, but it's a slim chance.

I've got a 5078 and a DVD-HD950 on their way ... I plan to run the 950's video to the tv via HDMI. I prefer to run the optical audio straight from the 950 to my AVR, but I will test the other route as well. Keeping fingers crossed that I get the equipment before the weekend, but it's a slim chance.

I've got everything needed (Denon 2910 DVD, Samsung 6168, Denon 2805 AVR) except for the HDMI cable (should be here today or tomorrow). I'll put this on my list of things to try:

Tried already:
1. DVD->SVideo->6168 - lip sync checking for 480i sources--observed less than 0.1 sec, or so I think, seemed only barely noticeable.
2. DVD->component->6168 -- looks really nice at 480p (still need to try 720p & 1080i)
3. NTSC via Comcast on RG-59 -- kinda bleh, watchable, but not spectacular
4. HD via Comcast on RG-59 -- wow!
5. ReplayTV recorded shows via SVideo (480p testing on component later) -- not very good, watchable, but now it's clear I need an HD PVR from Comcast.

Next to try:
6. PS2->component->6168 - check for lag (DDR Max2 is the best I can do) --tonight
7. DVD->HDMI->6168 and DVD->optical->AVR - lip sync?
8. DVD->HDMI->6168->optical->AVR - pass 5.1?


My preferred topology is going to send most signals via component & optical (if available) through my AVR, then component to the TV. The DVD will probably get one of the HDMI inputs on the TV though (sound will still go DVD->AVR directly via optical). A future Comcast HD STB will either take another HDMI input, or will go component to the AVR. If there is any perceptable lag with my PS2, it will get a dedicated component input set to GAME. My ReplayTV is the wild card, hopefully I'll still be able to use it to record standard def stuff with the STB, otherwise it will have to make do with just straight cable.

-se

I've got everything needed (Denon 2910 DVD, Samsung 6168, Denon 2805 AVR) except for the HDMI cable (should be here today or tomorrow). I'll put this on my list of things to try:

Tried already:
1. DVD->SVideo->6168 - lip sync checking for 480i sources--observed less than 0.1 sec, or so I think, seemed only barely noticeable.
2. DVD->component->6168 -- looks really nice at 480p (still need to try 720p & 1080i)
3. NTSC via Comcast on RG-59 -- kinda bleh, watchable, but not spectacular
4. HD via Comcast on RG-59 -- wow!
5. ReplayTV recorded shows via SVideo (480p testing on component later) -- not very good, watchable, but now it's clear I need an HD PVR from Comcast.

Next to try:
6. PS2->component->6168 - check for lag (DDR Max2 is the best I can do) --tonight
7. DVD->HDMI->6168 and DVD->optical->AVR - lip sync?
8. DVD->HDMI->6168->optical->AVR - pass 5.1?


My preferred topology is going to send most signals via component & optical (if available) through my AVR, then component to the TV. The DVD will probably get one of the HDMI inputs on the TV though (sound will still go DVD->AVR directly via optical). A future Comcast HD STB will either take another HDMI input, or will go component to the AVR. If there is any perceptable lag with my PS2, it will get a dedicated component input set to GAME. My ReplayTV is the wild card, hopefully I'll still be able to use it to record standard def stuff with the STB, otherwise it will have to make do with just straight cable.

-se

Thanks Steve! When you try the 1080i over HDMI from the Denon 2910 please
report if you notice any macroblocking - thanks!

P.S. Or any macroblocking from any output of the 2910?

Next to try:
6. PS2->component->6168 - check for lag (DDR Max2 is the best I can do) --tonight
7. DVD->HDMI->6168 and DVD->optical->AVR - lip sync?
8. DVD->HDMI->6168->optical->AVR - pass 5.1?

This will be great to hear about, especially items 7. and 8. Re these two items, could you also check for the DVD->HDMI->6168 step, is RGB or YbYrC (or whatever it is) better?

I was just about caught up reading all the threads when 2 mornings to my amazement my puter went poof.Being how addicting this post and technology is I ran out and purchased a new Gateway Dual core 64 bit processor home theatre unit.Nice unit I think.My questions are about no one taking advantage of the IEEE 1394.I was reading up on it and says it transfers 800 mb of info.Is this an acceptable to say use on a DVD player.And could you record to a DVD player.It has on the back of the unit (5688 OM) S400MPEG.

How is this connection (IEEE 1394)work for other components.I ask this cause the puters manual is only good to level a lopsided chair or table.

I just picked up a NV 7800GTX, which can drive tons of stuff at 1080p @ 60fps (I get Battlefield 2 1600x1200@~35-45fps with all chrome activated). Has anyone been able to confirm the crippled HDMI ports, and have they tried using the VGA input on any of these sets?

Jes' curious...

I just picked up a NV 7800GTX, which can drive tons of stuff at 1080p @ 60fps (I get Battlefield 2 1600x1200@~35-45fps with all chrome activated). Has anyone been able to confirm the crippled HDMI ports, and have they tried using the VGA input on any of these sets?

Jes' curious...

I have only tried VGA input from my laptop (powerbook) since I don't have a HTPC or an HDMI/DVI cable. As a computer monitor for web surfing etc the TV works well at 1920x1080 but small fonts are just a bit blurry, due to the wobulation I am sure.

Living in the Salt Lake Area? fyi, the HLR 6168W will be setup for viewing at R C Willey (300 W and 2200 S) tomorrow (7/22/05).
John

I've got a 5078 and a DVD-HD950 on their way ... I plan to run the 950's video to the tv via HDMI. I prefer to run the optical audio straight from the 950 to my AVR, but I will test the other route as well. Keeping fingers crossed that I get the equipment before the weekend, but it's a slim chance.

I purchased an HD950 in advance of my TV buy. I looked thru the manual last night and came away with the impression that it's hdmi is version 1.1 by looking thru the hookup instructions and reading between the lines. Thus, it will not show if the tv passes 1.1 or not.

It does appear the the Scientific Atlanta 8300 does support hdm1 1.1. To quote from the manual:

"On the 8300HD, you may override the automatic selection of audio by the HDMI interface by completing the following steps:

1. Press SETTINGS twice on the remote control to open the General Setting menu.
2. Press MOVE UP or MOVE DOWN to select the option Audio: Digital Out
3. Press MOVE RIGHT to select Dolby Digital. This setting will send Dolby Digital audio to the HDMI, DIGITAL AUDIO OUT, and OPTICAL AUDIO out connectors on the 8300HD."

I've got everything needed (Denon 2910 DVD, Samsung 6168, Denon 2805 AVR) except for the HDMI cable (should be here today or tomorrow). I'll put this on my list of things to try:


8. DVD->HDMI->6168->optical->AVR - pass 5.1?
-se

I really look forward to this and appreciate your effort. Just to confirm, the Denon 2910 supports hdmi 1.1?

Here is a site for the Denon Feature/Specification on DVD 556S, DVD 1720, DVD 756S ,
DVD 1920 .
http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/Denon2005DVDPlayers.php

Here is a site for the Denon Feature/Specification on DVD 556S, DVD 1720, DVD 756S ,
DVD 1920 .
http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/Denon2005DVDPlayers.php

Great! Looks like a go. Whoops, that's the 1920, not the 1910.

After i posted seen it wasnt the 2910.Had the same numbers just sequence was wrong lol sorry

I've got everything needed (Denon 2910 DVD, Samsung 6168, Denon 2805 AVR) except for the HDMI cable (should be here today or tomorrow). I'll put this on my list of things to try:

Tried already:
1. DVD->SVideo->6168 - lip sync checking for 480i sources--observed less than 0.1 sec, or so I think, seemed only barely noticeable.
2. DVD->component->6168 -- looks really nice at 480p (still need to try 720p & 1080i)
3. NTSC via Comcast on RG-59 -- kinda bleh, watchable, but not spectacular
4. HD via Comcast on RG-59 -- wow!
5. ReplayTV recorded shows via SVideo (480p testing on component later) -- not very good, watchable, but now it's clear I need an HD PVR from Comcast.

Next to try:
6. PS2->component->6168 - check for lag (DDR Max2 is the best I can do) --tonight
7. DVD->HDMI->6168 and DVD->optical->AVR - lip sync?
8. DVD->HDMI->6168->optical->AVR - pass 5.1?



Sorry, no UPS joy today--HDMI will have to wait until tomorrow.

PS2 and lag update: With component cables, 480i games do lag, _unless_ you set GAME mode. DDR Max2 was off enough to make it difficult to get even 'good' marks, until I set the input name to GAME. With GAME, I could detect no delay, presumably there is still a tiny delay (in order to properly progressivize a 480i signal, you'd have to delay at least one or two field-times, perhaps 1/30th of a second).

My wife will be pleased, she would be quite unhappy if she couldn't play her precious DDR on the big set.

-se

Sorry, no UPS joy today--HDMI will have to wait until tomorrow.

PS2 and lag update: With component cables, 480i games do lag, _unless_ you set GAME mode. DDR Max2 was off enough to make it difficult to get even 'good' marks, until I set the input name to GAME. With GAME, I could detect no delay, presumably there is still a tiny delay (in order to properly progressivize a 480i signal, you'd have to delay at least one or two field-times, perhaps 1/30th of a second).

My wife will be pleased, she would be quite unhappy if she couldn't play her precious DDR on the big set.


I haven't got component yet, I tested DDR with Svideo and didn't notice a lag, it will be interesting to see whether it changes with component.

OK. I need some high math done. I would be sitting about 12" from the TV and I want to get the 67". The first thing coming out is the 61". How far do I need to get somebody with the 61" to sit from their TV to have the same feel of what a 67" at twelve feet would be like?

...With GAME, I could detect no delay, presumably there is still a tiny delay (in order to properly progressivize a 480i signal, you'd have to delay at least one or two field-times, perhaps 1/30th of a second)...

"progressivize?" :D

Looking forward to what you learn once you get that cable ...

OK. I need some high math done. I would be sitting about 12" from the TV and I want to get the 67". The first thing coming out is the 61". How far do I need to get somebody with the 61" to sit from their TV to have the same feel of what a 67" at twelve feet would be like?

A '2 x diagonal' criterion corresponds to ~10 ft for the 61" set and ~11 ft for the 67" set; this is plenty far back (IMO), though some people may like to sit even further away. Probably the closest one would want to sit (but could do so with a 1080p set if you like the 'fully immersed' experience) is 1.5 x diagonal; this would be 7.5 ft for the 61" set and 8.3 ft for the 67". [Specifically in answer to your question: 12 ft back from a 67" set corresponds to ~11 ft back for a 61" set.]

OK. I need some high math done. I would be sitting about 12" from the TV and I want to get the 67". The first thing coming out is the 61". How far do I need to get somebody with the 61" to sit from their TV to have the same feel of what a 67" at twelve feet would be like?

No need to do the math yourself, just use this calculator:

Viewing Distance Calculator (http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html)

Using the above calculator, my figures pretty much macth millerwill's: 12 feet from a 67 inch set is equal to 11 feet from a 61 inch set.

I purchased an HD950 in advance of my TV buy. I looked thru the manual last night and came away with the impression that it's hdmi is version 1.1 by looking thru the hookup instructions and reading between the lines. Thus, it will not show if the tv passes 1.1 or not...

Just double-checking ... did you mean to say that you think the 950 is HDMI 1.0? If you really meant 1.1, can you please elaborate? I downloaded the manual and, given the fact that the player won't send DVD-A over HDMI (the 1.1 spec supposedly supports DVD-A), it looks to me that the 950 is 1.0 ...

Thanks, let me know if I misunderstood.

Using the above calculator, my figures pretty much macth millerwill's: 12 feet from a 67 inch set is equal to 11 feet from a 61 inch set.

really? Seems off for that close to such a large tv. The average distance on my sectional couch to the tv is 10 feet, so with those calculations, a 50" tv is somewhat small. haha.

These notes for the PS2 are good, I'll be using component (already use it, I don't even know where my composite PS2 cable is :D) so I'll set the input to GAME when i receive it.

Basically I plan to do this:

HDPVR:
- HDMI to DLP
- Toslink to AVR

PS2
- Component to TV
- Toslink to AVR

PC
- VGA to DLP
- Digital Coax to AVR

DVD Player
- Component to DLP (will go HDMI when I get a new player)
- Toslink to AVR

That's the plan thus far! Oh plus a little UPS for behind it (no one answered my question from a couple pages back either..... With a 230 watt load what's better, a UPS with a 300W max load, or 390W Max Load.

- D

My installer recommended the Denon 2910 to go with my HL R5078. I have noticed the comments about macroblocking. Does this mean that I should not get the Denon? And if not the Denon, then what, pray tell?! My installer has asked me to get your collective advice since he is more familiar with plasma and projector units.
I am sorry I have so little to offer this group but I am really just learning what all the technology does.
Thanks to all of you for your comments.
:)

If you live in the Denver area. The Denver West Soundtrack location has the 5078W on display, but the signal was a pretty bad feed. There is a large Soundtrack located up I-25 and 84th. I think it is the warehouse location here in Colorado. Anyways, I called them to ask if they had the hlr5078w on show and they said yes. So then I figured why not ask about the model I am really looking for, the 6178W. He looked it up and said they had that one in stock and on display also. So after work, I headed over there and what do you know, no display models out. I was pissed and grabbed the closest sales rep and told him to get the TV out of the box and out on floor right now, because I didn't drive across town for nothing. Sure enough, they brought it in and set it up. Anyways, things only look marginally better, but then I had him change the setting to Dynamic and turn the contrast way up and WOW! This thing is amazing. They had the Qualia right next to it and you would not be able to tell a difference( except that the Sony is $13,000 and over 70 in. Colors where stunning and man did the scales of the snake on it look incredible. Well yeah, you should check it out. The 78W series has a much better look than previous models. It is a shiny black laquer that hangs out over the bottom silver grille.

My installer recommended the Denon 2910 to go with my HL R5078. I have noticed the comments about macroblocking. Does this mean that I should not get the Denon? And if not the Denon, then what, pray tell?! My installer has asked me to get your collective advice since he is more familiar with plasma and projector units.
I am sorry I have so little to offer this group but I am really just learning what all the technology does.
Thanks to all of you for your comments.
:)

I am still trying to figure out why a Denon 3910 that I saw at Magnolia HiFi was performing so badly. I hope to go back tomorrow and try and figure out what is going wrong. But, you absolutely need the option to be able to return the 2910 if something goes wrong. The poor DVD PQ from the Denon made absolutely no sense, but there are reports of the 2910/3910 having problems with some displays. Just a suggestion, you might want to consider some of the cheaper DVD players (Samsung DVD-HD950, OPPO) and get an expensive player when HD DVD's show up in a little while. Although, I would even wait for reports on both of these players; but, some feedback should be available soon.

I am still trying to figure out why a Denon 3910 that I saw at Magnolia HiFi was performing so badly. I hope to go back tomorrow and try and figure out what is going wrong. But, you absolutely need the option to be able to return the 2910 if something goes wrong. The poor DVD PQ from the Denon made absolutely no sense, but there are reports of the 2910/3910 having problems with some displays. Just a suggestion, you might want to consider some of the cheaper DVD players (Samsung DVD-HD950, OPPO) and get an expensive player when HD DVD's show up in a little while. Although, I would even wait for reports on both of these players; but, some feedback should be available soon.

If I ever get my 6168 :-) I plan on putting my Denon DVD-3910 through the
works with it. It is possible there was some other problem that caused
the severe degradation of PQ. The macroblocking I have seen on the Mits
1080p DLP and my JVC D-ILA have been relatively minor after making
adjustments to the DVD player and display.

Until someone wiith one of the above DVD players and Samsung 1080p DLPs
throughly checks this out I would consider it one of the unresolved issues...

I purchased an HD950 in advance of my TV buy. I looked thru the manual last night and came away with the impression that it's hdmi is version 1.1 by looking thru the hookup instructions and reading between the lines. Thus, it will not show if the tv passes 1.1 or not.

It does appear the the Scientific Atlanta 8300 does support hdm1 1.1. To quote from the manual:

"On the 8300HD, you may override the automatic selection of audio by the HDMI interface by completing the following steps:

1. Press SETTINGS twice on the remote control to open the General Setting menu.
2. Press MOVE UP or MOVE DOWN to select the option Audio: Digital Out
3. Press MOVE RIGHT to select Dolby Digital. This setting will send Dolby Digital audio to the HDMI, DIGITAL AUDIO OUT, and OPTICAL AUDIO out connectors on the 8300HD."

found out from TWC customers that the PASSPORT UI-enabled 8300hd's do not have this option in the settings menu, seems only availabe on boxes with the SARA UI, like here on Cablevision systems

...Oh plus a little UPS for behind it (no one answered my question from a couple pages back either..... With a 230 watt load what's better, a UPS with a 300W max load, or 390W Max Load.

FWIW, I went with a higher max load (450W) battery backup unit from APC just for flexibility. Cost me under $70 on sale, not bad at all. In addition to the 230W from the DLP, I plan on running one or two components to it, probably a STB and/or something else, so that gets me into the 300W+ range. I think running a typical AVR on a 450W backup is going to be out of the question, since I think they typically draw something like 4+ Amps at 120V (if I understand the math correctly, which I may not, it's V*A=W, so 120V*4A=480W).

I've read a suggestion in the clean power thread that you should aim for ~50% max load over what you intend to run on battery backup, but I don't yet know the reasoning/validity is behind that suggestion. Haven't finished reviewing the entire thread yet. But I'm the kind of guy who likes to play it safe, and 300W seems a bit too tight for my comfort. Just a suggestion, but maybe I'm retarded. ;)

D / Cal --

Are either of you planning to actually watch TV when the power is out? I was doing the wattage arithmetic myself and then realized that if I only use the UPS to allow the fan to cool the bulb, and to allow my DVR to continue recording, I need way less than the 230 watts the set is rated at. 230 watts is what it takes to operate the set -- it probably takes a handful of watts to run the fan, plus 40 watts for my DVR means a UPS rated at 100 watts would more than suffice. (Of course, if you want a pure sine wave on battery backup, the smallest APC Smart-UPS is 750VA -- which is what I'm looking at -- so the math is irrelevant!) :D

If you live in the Denver area. The Denver West Soundtrack location has the 5078W on display, but the signal was a pretty bad feed. There is a large Soundtrack located up I-25 and 84th. I think it is the warehouse location here in Colorado. Anyways, I called them to ask if they had the hlr5078w on show and they said yes. So then I figured why not ask about the model I am really looking for, the 6178W. He looked it up and said they had that one in stock and on display also. So after work, I headed over there and what do you know, no display models out. I was pissed and grabbed the closest sales rep and told him to get the TV out of the box and out on floor right now, because I didn't drive across town for nothing. Sure enough, they brought it in and set it up. Anyways, things only look marginally better, but then I had him change the setting to Dynamic and turn the contrast way up and WOW! This thing is amazing. They had the Qualia right next to it and you would not be able to tell a difference( except that the Sony is $13,000 and over 70 in. Colors where stunning and man did the scales of the snake on it look incredible. Well yeah, you should check it out. The 78W series has a much better look than previous models. It is a shiny black laquer that hangs out over the bottom silver grille.
Awesome! I will go there this weekend.

D / Cal --

Are either of you planning to actually watch TV when the power is out? I was doing the wattage arithmetic myself and then realized that if I only use the UPS to allow the fan to cool the bulb, and to allow my DVR to continue recording, I need way less than the 230 watts the set is rated at. 230 watts is what it takes to operate the set -- it probably takes a handful of watts to run the fan, plus 40 watts for my DVR means a UPS rated at 100 watts would more than suffice. (Of course, if you want a pure sine wave on battery backup, the smallest APC Smart-UPS is 750VA -- which is what I'm looking at -- so the math is irrelevant!) :D

You need to account for the time between when the power goes out and when you can turn the set off. If you use an UPS that can't handle your TV when it is on, it will overload when the power goes out and will not switch over to battery power.

And if not the Denon, then what, pray tell?!
You can find information about all the current DVD players in this forum.

DVD Players (Standard Def) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=18)

My installer recommended the Denon 2910 to go with my HL R5078. I have noticed the comments about macroblocking. Does this mean that I should not get the Denon? And if not the Denon, then what, pray tell?! My installer has asked me to get your collective advice since he is more familiar with plasma and projector units.
I am sorry I have so little to offer this group but I am really just learning what all the technology does.
Thanks to all of you for your comments.
:)

I have a Denon 2910 in use with a Sammy hlp6163 and have been very pleased with it. On a (very) few occasions I have noticed (what I think is) MB'ing, but it has not been frequent enough for me to consider it a problem. The overall PQ is superb, as is the build quality, etc. It will be with me for several years (soon with one of the new 1080p displays) until HD dvd finally settles down.

D / Cal --

Are either of you planning to actually watch TV when the power is out? I was doing the wattage arithmetic myself and then realized that if I only use the UPS to allow the fan to cool the bulb, and to allow my DVR to continue recording, I need way less than the 230 watts the set is rated at. 230 watts is what it takes to operate the set -- it probably takes a handful of watts to run the fan, plus 40 watts for my DVR means a UPS rated at 100 watts would more than suffice. (Of course, if you want a pure sine wave on battery backup, the smallest APC Smart-UPS is 750VA -- which is what I'm looking at -- so the math is irrelevant!) :D

I only plan on running the set plus, say, an HD DVR on the backup if I'm actually in progress with recording something. Otherwise I will turn the equipment off nicely as soon as I can. But I think slimjim's right ... I certainly don't want one rated than less than the set, for the reasons he stated.

Alright it's not a huge cost difference so I'll go w/ the 390 For safety, the DIP is the only component on this UPS as it's behind the TV on it's custom shelf. Would you red a UPS for my other components? I was thinking surge protector For those?

(post written entirely via TabletPC)

- D

really? Seems off for that close to such a large tv. The average distance on my sectional couch to the tv is 10 feet, so with those calculations, a 50" tv is somewhat small. haha.

Use the calculator.

If you believe in the THX recommended viewing angles and distances, then yes, a 50" screen is too small if you will be sitting 10 feet from it.

As discussed extensively above, there are other considerations, such as aesthetics, cabinet or niche size etc etc

Since there are so many questions regarding DVD players right now, just let me add a brief recommendation for the Pioneer Elite 59avi. An excellent performing unit that does not have a macroblocking problem, and provides a very clean, smooth and detailed picture via HDMI. And it can be purchased for several hundred dollars less than a Denon 3910 and not much more than a 2910.

Hello all.

I am considering the following two stands for my Samsung 6168 DLP:

Samsung TR61X2X 56.9w 17.8d 17h
Plateau CR-2V(56) 56w 19d 17h

My question is (to anyone who knows), the specs of the 6168 have it listed at 56.9w and the Samsung stand matches that width.

I really want the Plateau stand, but it is only 56W. Will I have a problem with this? Plateau has a wider model (64w) but I think that is too wide for the 6168.

Any advice?

Thanks!

You need to account for the time between when the power goes out and when you can turn the set off. If you use an UPS that can't handle your TV when it is on, it will overload when the power goes out and will not switch over to battery power.
Well, that just makes too much sense! How in the blazes did I miss that one? Thanks for pointing it out!

(And I was proud when I realized I didn't have to worry about not being home to turn off the TV, because the TV is only on when I'm home! Sheesh!)

Would you red a UPS for my other components? I was thinking surge protector For those?

As long as my other equipment didn't have a specific need for uninterrupted power, that's what I'd do. All of my components are within 4' of the tv, so I can just plug the non-critical ones to the "surge only" outlets on my APC (half are surge only, half are also tied to the backup battery). If you've got equipment further away, then sure, a separate surge suppressor would be in order.

Great thread that's been around for a long time on clean power and surge suppression is here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=277384). Haven't finished reading it, but I learned a lot about quality surge suppression in a short time. We should probably continue any further discussion of this over there ... ;)

Hello all.

I am considering the following two stands for my Samsung 6168 DLP:

Samsung TR61X2X 56.9w 17.8d 17h
Plateau CR-2V(56) 56w 19d 17h

My question is (to anyone who knows), the specs of the 6168 have it listed at 56.9w and the Samsung stand matches that width.

I really want the Plateau stand, but it is only 56W. Will I have a problem with this? Plateau has a wider model (64w) but I think that is too wide for the 6168.

Any advice?

Thanks!

There is no way that .9" is going to make a difference with your set. I say go with the Plateau, remove the stabilization base from the TV and enjoy. From stability perspective, you'll be fine, and I don't see how that tiny bit of space would matter too much in terms of aesthetics either (you probably wouldn't even notice it).

There is no way that .9" is going to make a difference with your set. ...
From stability perspective, you'll be fine, and I don't see how that tiny bit of space would matter too much in terms of aesthetics either (you probably wouldn't even notice it).

Indeed, I had a pre-existing stand that I'm really quite attached to (special ordered from http://www.standsunique.com in the UK, if anyone cares). It turned out to be 3 or so inches narrower than my 6168. I had planned on removing the stabilization foot, but due to the caps on the tops of the stands posts, I have not yet done so.

Certainly with the 'foot' the fact that the stand is a bit narrower isn't a factor, and since the foot is narrower than the set, in principle it seems like you could have a stand nearly as narrow as the foot--even if you removed the foot (though then stability might indeed be a concern).

-se

FWIW, I went with a higher max load (450W) battery backup unit from APC just for flexibility. Cost me under $70 on sale, not bad at all. In addition to the 230W from the DLP, I plan on running one or two components to it, probably a STB and/or something else, so that gets me into the 300W+ range. I think running a typical AVR on a 450W backup is going to be out of the question, since I think they typically draw something like 4+ Amps at 120V (if I understand the math correctly, which I may not, it's V*A=W, so 120V*4A=480W).

I've read a suggestion in the clean power thread that you should aim for ~50% max load over what you intend to run on battery backup, but I don't yet know the reasoning/validity is behind that suggestion. Haven't finished reviewing the entire thread yet. But I'm the kind of guy who likes to play it safe, and 300W seems a bit too tight for my comfort. Just a suggestion, but maybe I'm retarded. ;)


Just got a Belkin 1200VA for my 6168, paid $80 for it. Can't wait for my New TV to get here

The lip of the Samsung is made to be removed as they do not anticipate everyone to buy that stand and an owner informed us it takes two screws in the rear bottom to remove and it slides loose and remains stable. Someone posted this during the past week. I'm awaiting my 6768 and could not tolerate the sammy stand as it failed to provide enough component space. I ordered the Bello 2663 which is a 1/4" wider on each side than the TV and perfect depth. It costs double or triple the Sammy Stand but I installed the stand last weekend and it's a beauty just waiting for my HT.

Enjoy your 61" perhaps the overhang may work since it's using a suspended panel above but usually you want the stand to be slightly larger or equal rather than narrower than the TV I would think as these sets are bottom heavy in looks and size but it may be negligible overhang? Perhaps you could view in a store and see if they have any on undersized stands and decide for yourself as these are usually quite heavy (mine was nearly 200lbs packaged/crated) and are expensive to ship and may not be able to return if your dissatisfied.

:D Good Luck and Enjoy!

Hello all.

I am considering the following two stands for my Samsung 6168 DLP:

Samsung TR61X2X 56.9w 17.8d 17h
Plateau CR-2V(56) 56w 19d 17h

My question is (to anyone who knows), the specs of the 6168 have it listed at 56.9w and the Samsung stand matches that width.

I really want the Plateau stand, but it is only 56W. Will I have a problem with this? Plateau has a wider model (64w) but I think that is too wide for the 6168.

Any advice?

Thanks!I have the Plateau 64" in silver I used it for a hlp6163 Excellent build quality, nice looking and all my components easily fit...even the center channel. Soon to be used for a 6768 whenever they come out.

Well my new 1080p set is finally on its way. It's a replacement being shipped directly from Samsung and I should have it in about a week, however, I'm suppose to get an HL-R5668W and the tracking notice describes the set as an HL-R5688W. Samsung assures me it's a typo, I guess I'll find out for sure in a week or so.

According to the block diagram, the Samsung 1080p use a SiI9021 which is HDMI 1.0 compliant only.

block diagram (https://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=528328&native_or_pdf=pdf)

SiI9021 (http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?id=19&ptid=1)

I know this is from *way* back a bunch of pages, but isn't the only real difference between HDMI 1.0 and 1,1 the ability to handle DVD-Audio? (which of course would be a useless thing to have on a TV)

I would really love to know if the new Sammy's pass 5.1 audio, but I am not sure that we *can* know that simply by virtue of the fact that they use the 9021 chip (i.e., I am pretty sure the chip should work fine with 5.1 and it would simply be an implementation thing on Sammy's part).

People have some of these sets already, has no one yet determined whether it does or it does not?

long time lurker, first time poster. I am first on the list at Vann's for the 5688 at a reasonable price. They claim they will get their shipment in on Aug 5. Let's go digital superstore claims to have the 5688 in stock NOW at a slightly cheaper price, with delivery in 7-10 days. I know Vann's is trustworthy. Should I take a chance with this other internet retailer who claims to have this product now or wait for Vann's to get the product. Any advice?

long time lurker, first time poster. I am first on the list at Vann's for the 5688 at a reasonable price. They claim they will get their shipment in on Aug 5. Let's go digital superstore claims to have the 5688 in stock NOW at a slightly cheaper price, with delivery in 7-10 days. I know Vann's is trustworthy. Should I take a chance with this other internet retailer who claims to have this product now or wait for Vann's to get the product. Any advice?


Myself i would look at TVAuthority(link at top of page)all the comments on this forum are very favorable.and i think you would be surprized in the cost.To me they seem to have great customer servive.give a call

I purchased an HD950 in advance of my TV buy. I looked thru the manual last night and came away with the impression that it's hdmi is version 1.1 by looking thru the hookup instructions and reading between the lines. Thus, it will not show if the tv passes 1.1 or not.

It does appear the the Scientific Atlanta 8300 does support hdm1 1.1. To quote from the manual:

"On the 8300HD, you may override the automatic selection of audio by the HDMI interface by completing the following steps:

1. Press SETTINGS twice on the remote control to open the General Setting menu.
2. Press MOVE UP or MOVE DOWN to select the option Audio: Digital Out
3. Press MOVE RIGHT to select Dolby Digital. This setting will send Dolby Digital audio to the HDMI, DIGITAL AUDIO OUT, and OPTICAL AUDIO out connectors on the 8300HD."


When I do this on my 8300 and 6168 I only get sound in the Tv with it on digital out. No sound on dd. I don't have it hooked up to any receiver yet.

When I do this on my 8300 and 6168 I only get sound in the Tv with it on digital out. No sound on dd. I don't have it hooked up to any receiver yet.

Not sure I understand what you're saying. You set the TV to digital out?

gjschwartzman New Member

Definitely stay clear of "Lets Go Digital" - they have no 5 Star Return Guarantee like TVA has on theirs and they also have TV's listed as in-stock when they don't exist yet in the market place, e.g.; Samsung HPR5572 55" Plasma - they have not been released yet they list them. Check Resellerratings on vendors.

See this link #26 (scroll 3/4 of the page and review the others for a little shocking comic relief) is Let's Go Digital on the page with photo's.
http://www.panix.com/~donwiss/pictures/BrooklynStores/

They are D.B.A. HypeAudio and Editor's Choice and others and they do the same thing posting TV's before release and "risk of going out of stock as High" - A tactic to get your credit card locked in and stall and Bait and Switch tactics afterwards even though they have no such stock since they don't exist to have in stock yet to slum Lords like this - many of the TV''s they report as in inventory as I've followed them for months on many TV's that have not existed yet they show them as available - from the looks of their storefronts would any Manufacturer give them advance inventory? No WAY!

They are part of a fraud alert investigation listed by Plasmaplanet as an educational service of internet dealers out of Brooklyn, Coney island and Manhattan. Some shown may do some legitimate business but they are located in a ghetto and many of these dealers are known for unethical practices that border criminal.

Go with TVA, Vann's or other trusted source. :D

long time lurker, first time poster. I am first on the list at Vann's for the 5688 at a reasonable price. They claim they will get their shipment in on Aug 5. Let's go digital superstore claims to have the 5688 in stock NOW at a slightly cheaper price, with delivery in 7-10 days. I know Vann's is trustworthy. Should I take a chance with this other internet retailer who claims to have this product now or wait for Vann's to get the product. Any advice?Personally I would at least call TVA...they are a very good company to deal with...excellent prices and they back up their products...I have used them 3 times without a problem.

There's some debate on the Power Buy thread about whether HD-DVR's reduce PQ slightly (specifically SA 8000 or 8300 HD). Any additonal opinions appreciated. After I set up my SA 8000, I may try a non-DVR box and see if I can notice a difference.

After spending a several hours with both a HLR6168W and HLR5078W on three difference occasions, I feel ready to add my comments to those of others about these truly outstanding TV’s.

I reviewed the TV’s at two locations: Magnolia HiFi in San Ramon (CA); and Fry’s in Fremont (CA). I’d like to thank the excellent staff at Magnolia HiFi!!! They worked with me to test/demo the TV under a large number of scenarios and went the extra distance to get good results. Thanks!!!

My impressions:

> These are outstanding TV’s. They were easily better than any other RPTV on display at either location. Since the HLR5078W was right next to the Qualia 006 at Magnolia, I compared the two TV’s. But, I don’t feel it is appropriate to compare a 50” to a 70” set, so the Samsung 1080p vs. Qualia 006 comparisons will have to wait until the 71” Samsung is available for comparison. Also, my intent here is not to compare the Samsungs to plasma, LCD, CRT, but I liked the new Samsung 1080p’s better than those technologies.

> Brightness – These TV’s are extremely bright. There is extensive headroom on brightness, even set at 50 on the 0 to 100 brightness scale in setup. The 5078 made all of the other TV’s on display look dim. Brightness is not going to be an issue. The extra head room will be used on the larger screen sizes (with lower max brightness specs) to maintain that bright attractive look.

> Contrast – The higher contrast ratio spec on these sets is readily apparent when viewing real life material. The picture is significantly better in this regard than the 720p units. The improved contrast takes PQ to a whole new level. The images have much more impact, when that is combined with the improved detail at 1080i the final result is an image that I have never seen on a RPTV.

> Color – Excellent. Rich, vibrant colors. Gone are the color problems of prior years.

> 1080p vs 720p – 1080p is definitely a clearer more detailed image than 720p (on 1080i material). I’m going to step up to 1080p! The improved resolution shows up best when appropriately sized detail is displayed on the screen. An example might be lettering on a sign or intricate detail.

> DVD Material – I had the opportunity to test with 5078 with a Denon 3910. The picture was disappointing and showed serious macroblocking (HDMI, 1080i setting). I decided to take another approach and the staff at Magnolia allowed me to swap the 3910 for a Samsung DVD-HD941 (HDMI, 480p). We really tried to get the Samsung set to 1080i, but I think the DVI to HDMI adapter we were using was causing a problem so I stepped back to 480p (NOTE, this was over HDMI). DVD’s looked stunning!!! Stable, beautiful images! The scaler in the Samsung was doing an excellent job. So if you have large DVD collection like I do (1000+ DVD’s), they will look superb! Again, thanks to the staff at Magnolia for allowing me to test with both DVD players under so many configurations!

> HD Material – HD material looked great! But, given the high performance of this TV we may be reaching a point were the equipment providing the HD signal, even the cable / sat company are going to start entering the equation big time. The HD material did not look as stable on the screen as the DVD material. I attribute this to one of the following causes: 1) Magnolia’s video distribution system was adding some signal degradation; or 2) the DirectTV HD signal is not as good as the Comcast signal that I watch every day. At any rate, the TV was being feed via component video and most of us will probably be using DVI/HDMI. Bottom line, it looked good and I would expect it to look much better (maybe perfect) once the set is at home. But, there is room for further testing here that just could not be done in the store. My guess is the TV will handle the signal perfectly (based on HDMI input from DVD player) and any small problems will be downstream from the TV in cable/sat box, broadcast, or material.

ADDED: Some of the faces on HD material looked like they had been smoothed. For lack of any terminology for this look, I will call then silk faces. I attributed this to possible signal compression on the DirectTV broadcast. If anyone has a very high quality HD feed, from quality HD equipment, via HDMI please let me know if this was just a problem unique to Magnolia's setup or DirectTV. It is the only defect that I observed on any of the material that I viewed.

> SD Material – SD looked good for SD. The set handled it well. People that were worried that SD would look worst on these sets, can relax that is not the case. I did not focus on SD material, it may have looked a little better than on a 720p set. Certainly did not look any worst.

> I did not take a game system up there with me, but Magnolia said that there would not be a problem if I wanted to bring one up and test. I probably will not do this because gaming is not a show stopper for me. I was unable to test any audio sync issues because of the setup. They also said that I could bring up my HTPC, but I won’t. Again, that is not a show stopper for me and I can better test HTPC performance at home.

In summary, I have seen enough. I am ready to buy!!! This is the upgraded system that I had hoped that it would be! It is even better than I expected. Hopefully, one of the owners will start running some of the other tests required to resolve the open issues on our list. :)

the dvd-941 does have hdmi out. Are you sure the BB guy didn't use the 841 instead (only had dvi out)

There's some debate on the Power Buy thread about whether HD-DVR's reduce PQ slightly (specifically SA 8000 or 8300 HD). Any additonal opinions appreciated. After I set up my SA 8000, I may try a non-DVR box and see if I can notice a difference.

HD-DVRs are simply "bit-buckets" ... they store the bitstream as it is received ...

UCSB, why didn't you simply change the output of the 3910 to 480p; or even try 720p to see if that resolved MB issues.

> DVD Material – I had the opportunity to test with 5078 with a Denon 3910. The picture was disappointing and showed serious macroblocking (HDMI, 1080i setting).


Is the macroblocking issue purely related to upconverting? Can it be eliminated by using a different resolution or the component outputs? I have a 67" on order, but I also purchased a Denon 3910 earlier this year and I am extremely pleased with its video and audio performance - would hate to think of giving it up!

Hello all.

I am considering the following two stands for my Samsung 6168 DLP:

Samsung TR61X2X 56.9w 17.8d 17h
Plateau CR-2V(56) 56w 19d 17h

My question is (to anyone who knows), the specs of the 6168 have it listed at 56.9w and the Samsung stand matches that width.

I really want the Plateau stand, but it is only 56W. Will I have a problem with this? Plateau has a wider model (64w) but I think that is too wide for the 6168.

Any advice?

Thanks!

I order online the Plateau CR-2V64 for my 6168 (should be here Tuesday). I assembled it a couple of weeks ago, and it seems pretty stable. The one draw back is that it looks a little cheap. The wood grain melamine kind of killed it for me.
Not worth $450. $250, and I would say it's a good value. The wife absolutely hates it. I can't say that I don't blame her. Hopefully, once I have the TV and components set up, the "wood" portion will be mostly hidden.

HD-DVRs are simply "bit-buckets" ... they store the bitstream as it is received ...

So there is no compression or processing or anything like that that would degrade the signal??

UCSB, great post, it's interesting that you mention HD source from cable/satellite provider as the potential new limiting factor (I have Comcast in NJ). That's why I'm concerned about any PQ loss at all across my SA 8000 DVR.

Schaffer: Thank You!

I look forward to your answer about 5.1 through the HDMI!!!!!


I too am interested in 5.1 throught the HDMI. I have a 5067 and am thinking about returning for a 5078.

I order online the Plateau CR-2V64 for my 6168 (should be here Tuesday). I assembled it a couple of weeks ago, and it seems pretty stable. The one draw back is that it looks a little cheap. The wood grain melamine kind of killed it for me.
Not worth $450. $250, and I would say it's a good value. The wife absolutely hates it. I can't say that I don't blame her. Hopefully, once I have the TV and components set up, the "wood" portion will be mostly hidden.Which color did you order...I have the 64" in silver and it looked awesome with the HLP6163...all my components fit on the stand.

UCSB
Thanks for the great review...I am looking so forward to the day when my 67" ships...but now I wonder if I made a mistake purchasing the OPPO.

Which color did you order...I have the 64" in silver and it looked awesome with the HLP6163...all my components fit on the stand.

I went with the rose "wood" color. I have a lot of natural and stained wood in my living room, so I figured it would be the best choice. Plus, I have a lighter wood veneer rack as well. All silver or black with silver tubes probably would look best but would look a bit out of place in the LR.

Overall, I needed a three "bay" stand along with my four shelf rack to house the following....
center channel
amp
pre/pro
3 tivos
hd/pvr cable box
hd-dvd
line conditioner
cd player

The Plateau was the only stand that provided enough room and height for everything.

I too am interested in 5.1 throught the HDMI. I have a 5067 and am thinking about returning for a 5078.


5.1 won't work through HDMI in a 5078 - or any Samsung DLP. Unlike other manufacturers, Samsung has no Dolby Decoder in their DLP's. If this is a major factor for you, Wait for the other manufacturer's 1080P's later in the year. Most will be better than Samsung anyway....

5.1 won't work through HDMI in a 5078 - or any Samsung DLP. Unlike other manufacturers, Samsung has no Dolby Decoder in their DLP's. If this is a major factor for you, Wait for the other manufacturer's 1080P's later in the year. Most will be better than Samsung anyway....

Which manufacturers and models will pass 5.1 through HDMI in 2005? Please cite model numbers and your sources for this information.

5.1 won't work through HDMI in a 5078 - or any Samsung DLP. Unlike other manufacturers, Samsung has no Dolby Decoder in their DLP's. If this is a major factor for you, Wait for the other manufacturer's 1080P's later in the year. Most will be better than Samsung anyway....Mr. Gazelle you have NO PROOF that other manufacturer's will be any better than what Samsung has to offer now...until they are released I honestly would take a sit back and wait and see approach if I were you... :rolleyes:

Mr. Gazelle you have NO PROOF that other manufacturer's will be any better than what Samsung has to offer now...until they are released I honestly would take a sit back and wait and see approach if I were you... :rolleyes:


Don't be silly - they ALL DID on last year's models, and the Mitsubishi 1080P just released certainly does. The coming Toshiba 1080P's all have built-in Dolby Decoders (as do all their 720P Models). What are you talking about? Samsung is the ONLY major manufacturer that does not...

Don't be silly - they ALL DID on last year's models, and the Mitsubishi 1080P just released certainly does. The coming Toshiba 1080P's all have built-in Dolby Decoders (as do all their 720P Models). What are you talking about? Samsung is the ONLY major manufacturer that does not...Gazelle, Gazelle, Gazelle :rolleyes:

The Denver West soundtrack here in colorado just set up the 6178W on display. Judging from distance to the distribution warehouse in Colorado, every Soundtrack location should have both the 6178 and the 5078. If they do not have them on floor, tell a rep to go pull it out of the box in the back for you. Don't let them be their usually lazy selves.

LMAO!! It amazes me that you guys still respond to gazelle's posts.

UCSB, why didn't you simply change the output of the 3910 to 480p; or even try 720p to see if that resolved MB issues.

I was trying to test the TV. Once I realized that the Denon was failing, I just wanted it out of my test setup. But, after seeing the fantastic image produced by the Samsung at 480p, I could have gone back and tried the Denon again. Unfortunately, I had completely taken over the 5078 for about two and a half hours at that time. In addition, I had been changing their SAT feed many, many times and testing the TV with a DVR. I had burned off hours of Magnolia staff time so I decided to wrap up my session. I'll go back in a few days to run some of my tests on a 5678 that they are going to be setting up. If the Denon is still handy, I'll test the lower resolutions. My focus was the TV and at least I can report fantastic results there.

I posted this on the home owners thread and decided to post it here also.

Gazelle: I noted your comment on the HDMI decoder.

"UCSB: Excellent report!!!!!!

Just a couple of follow-up questions, please.

1. Did you notice any lip sync issues with any of the source material? Were the internal speakers used? External speakers used?

2. Were you able to verify what sort of audio, 2.0 or 5.1, was output on the optical output as a funcition of the various inputs (HDMI, cable, over the ari, component, etc) to the TV?

Thanks for all of your effort. "

the dvd-941 does have hdmi out. Are you sure the BB guy didn't use the 841 instead (only had dvi out)

Sorry, I can't resolve the issue of 841 vs 941. We simply walked over to another Demo setup and disconnected the player and started using it. It looked like a 941 to me so I assumed it was. I'll be returning to Magnolia in a few days and I will check the model number. It is an important point because the 841 and 941 use different chips. It only had a DVI connection ... so if that means that it was a 841 then we should assume that it a 841. I was more interested in the image on the TV. I was not testing the DVD player and I should caution people not to just go out and buy a 841 because there may have been hidden issues. Specifically, there may have been a problem BTB. But, the bottom line is the TV images were outstanding and owners should be able to get a DVD player that will give them outstanding results.

Is the macroblocking issue purely related to upconverting? Can it be eliminated by using a different resolution or the component outputs? I have a 67" on order, but I also purchased a Denon 3910 earlier this year and I am extremely pleased with its video and audio performance - would hate to think of giving it up!

I'm sorry I didn't test 480p. If the Denon is still available on my next trip, I will retest with that resolution. My guess is that you will be able to find a combination of outputs and resolution that will minimize or completely remove the effect. But, my focus was on testing the TV.

HD-DVRs are simply "bit-buckets" ... they store the bitstream as it is received ...

Only for digital channels. Analog channels are convetrted to MPEG and this can and does result in degraded quality.

8300HD is better than 8000HD

My TVs analog tuner is better than either.

Samsung has no Dolby Decoder in their DLP's.

Since it has an ATSC/QAM tuner, doesn't it need to decode DD? Or does the ATSC spec require that a 2 channel stream be included along with the 6 channel stream?

Don't be silly - they ALL DID on last year's models, and the Mitsubishi 1080P just released certainly does. The coming Toshiba 1080P's all have built-in Dolby Decoders (as do all their 720P Models). What are you talking about? Samsung is the ONLY major manufacturer that does not...

According to this thread, previous Mitsubishi models (e.g. the xx527) don't pass DD5.1 over HDMI, and we don't know whether the new models will:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=554147&page=8&pp=30

The Mitsubishi manual for the WD-62525 says on page 14, item 12: "Digital Audio Output: This output will automatically send Dolby Digital audio from digital channels and IEEE1394 devices to a digital Audio/Video receiver." It doesn't mention passing DD to the digital output from HDMI sources.

Do you have different information? Thanks.

So there is no compression or processing or anything like that that would degrade the signal??

UCSB, great post, it's interesting that you mention HD source from cable/satellite provider as the potential new limiting factor (I have Comcast in NJ). That's why I'm concerned about any PQ loss at all across my SA 8000 DVR.

You can just get a CableCard subscription and by-pass the DVR to test this situation. I don't think there is any compression going on in the DVR. I do think Samsung 1080p owners will become much more aware of the quality of their HD signal after they get their sets. So if their carrier is degrading the signal, it will be more apparent.

UCSB
Thanks for the great review...I am looking so forward to the day when my 67" ships...but now I wonder if I made a mistake purchasing the OPPO.

I have no reason to believe that the OPPO won't do a great job with your new TV. I will be looking forward to your feedback on the OPPO.

I posted this on the home owners thread and decided to post it here also.

Gazelle: I noted your comment on the HDMI decoder.

"UCSB: Excellent report!!!!!!

Just a couple of follow-up questions, please.

1. Did you notice any lip sync issues with any of the source material? Were the internal speakers used? External speakers used?

2. Were you able to verify what sort of audio, 2.0 or 5.1, was output on the optical output as a funcition of the various inputs (HDMI, cable, over the ari, component, etc) to the TV?

Thanks for all of your effort. "

I could not really test lip sync or HDMI 5.1 audio pass through because I was not connected to a receiver.

The Denver West soundtrack here in colorado just set up the 6178W on display. Judging from distance to the distribution warehouse in Colorado, every Soundtrack location should have both the 6178 and the 5078. If they do not have them on floor, tell a rep to go pull it out of the box in the back for you. Don't let them be their usually lazy selves.
Glad to hear it.

I went in to the Park Meadows Soundtrack on Thursday. I saw the 5078 and was frankly pretty unimpressed. It was only marginally sharper than the 5067 next to it. A bit more detail in some shots, but it wasn't like it looked 3-D or really stood out from the sets around it. I might not have noticed the difference at all if I hadn't known it was 1080p and was looking for it to be sharper. I suspect this is more about how it was hooked up, the quality of the HDNet feed and how many times the signal had been split etc..

I could see that it was a somewhat sharper picture but the way they displayed it didn't make it appear to be worth the extra $1000. Would be interesting to see how the same store displays the 61 when they get it. I was even wondering if some stores may not want to make the 1080ps look all that great until they unload all the inventory of 720p dlp sets

I talked to some folks at the new local Magnolia inside BB. Their comment was that it really is how they are displayed. They plan to put their 1080p on a dedicated sat feed with its own powersupply to really show what it can do. However, it sounds like they wouldn't have the 6168 in for at least a week or two. Intersting how different stores in the same chain get them at different times.

If anyone in CO finds a store that really sets these things up please let me know.

could someone try out like halo 1 or halo 2 for xbox on there neww 6168 i really want to see if games like that have lag, i want this tv so bad but am not going to buy it if it has lag

I went to check out the 6168 just put out at the Indianapolis Indiana Frys last night and heard an interesting bit of info from a sales guy there:

He says they will be receiving a hard drive based system to feed a special loop of 1080p video material to the Samsung 1080p sets via the firewire inputs.

Does this make sense, ie can the firewire inputs on the new Samsung 1080p sets accept a true 1080p signal?

I went to check out the 6168 just put out at the Indianapolis Indiana Frys last night and heard an interesting bit of info from a sales guy there:

He says they will be receiving a hard drive based system to feed a special loop of 1080p video material to the Samsung 1080p sets via the firewire inputs.

Does this make sense, ie can the firewire inputs on the new Samsung 1080p sets accept a true 1080p signal?

This is one of our open issues in POST #1.

UCSB, which 1080p set are you going to buy?

HLR5668W ... it is the best fit with my existing cabinet and room. If I didn't have my existing cabinet, I would have gone with the 6168.

Only for digital channels. Analog channels are convetrted to MPEG and this can and does result in degraded quality.

8300HD is better than 8000HD

My TVs analog tuner is better than either.

Are there a lot of analog channels left in a typical digital cable lineup? If you subscribe to digital cable, can you just plug the raw coax from the wall into a 6168 and let the TV receive the analog signal? Forgive the neophtye questions, never had digital before.

You can just get a CableCard subscription and by-pass the DVR to test this situation. I don't think there is any compression going on in the DVR. I do think Samsung 1080p owners will become much more aware of the quality of their HD signal after they get their sets. So if their carrier is degrading the signal, it will be more apparent.

I spent 20 minutes on the phone with Comcast trying to get a cable card for comparison as you suggest. I said that I had no problem paying for an extra subscription. They said it was totally impossible to swap from one to the other because of the way their system is set up to feed one signal or the other. I may have been talking to a knucklehead, I don't know. They said they could send a tech out with a non-DVR box with DVI connection to compare. They told me the DVI on my 8000 was inactive. I'm anxious to hook up my 6168 on Monday. Anyone else curious about testing with and without DVR had better success?

> Are there a lot of analog channels left in a typical digital cable lineup?

Depends on the cable system, but, usually, YES.


> If you subscribe to digital cable, can you just plug the raw coax from the wall into a 6168 and let the TV receive the analog signal?

YES and you will also get unencrypted HD. Usually just the networks. Add a cable card and you get all of the digitals you want to pay for.

You will only want a cable box if you want their DVR.

UCSB, great review, you make my "review" seem amateurish in comparison (but of course I am an amateur in comparison to many of you resident experts ;-). You've stated a lot more clearly many of things that I was trying to say about the PQ. I did also notice that "smoothing", especially on faces, but attributed that to the poor HD feed and lack of calibration.

I have been amazed at how detailed objects are -- especially faces. I was watching Empire last night (recorded in HD on my Myth PVR), and could see the pores on the faces of the actors! I have to assume the smoothing you are seeing is caused by a lowered bitrate broadcast.

John

I spent 20 minutes on the phone with Comcast trying to get a cable card for comparison as you suggest. I said that I had no problem paying for an extra subscription. They said it was totally impossible to swap from one to the other because of the way their system is set up to feed one signal or the other. I may have been talking to a knucklehead, I don't know. They said they could send a tech out with a non-DVR box with DVI connection to compare. They told me the DVI on my 8000 was inactive. I'm anxious to hook up my 6168 on Monday. Anyone else curious about testing with and without DVR had better success?

If you just want to test, then you should be able to plug the coax directly into the TV and let it find all of the available (non-encrepted) stations. You should get some HD, digital SD, and SD. Use these to compare with the DVR and you will have your answer. I don't think that what they told you about cablecard is correct, but this other approach will be good enough for a test. If the picture is better and it is worth the expense and work you can call them back and work out the cablecard issues (ie. you may need to put a splitter before your DVR). But, the Cablecard will work because just think of it as another TV in the house.

I have been amazed at how detailed objects are -- especially faces. I was watching Empire last night (recorded in HD on my Myth PVR), and could see the pores on the faces of the actors! I have to assume the smoothing you are seeing is caused by a lowered bitrate broadcast.

John

Thanks. I think you are right.

I know that everyone here is focused on the new Sammy 1080p sets--as am I--but I wonder if anyone who has seen one of these Sammies (mostly the 5078) has also seen one of the new Mits 1080p's? And if you have (I know that they are very sparse at present!), how do the Mits and Sammy compare? Though I am leaning toward a Sammy, I feel uncomfortable taking the final plung without knowing how it compares to the Mits. (And for the size I'm interested in, the Mits--at 73"--is a bit larger than the Sammy 71", with a significantly lower MSRP.) (And before anyone reminds me, I know that Samsung has much better customer service that Mitsubishi; this is something one must of course factor into a decision, but I would first like to know how the products compare.)

Alright I'm excited for my TV. At first I was letting all these little issues get to me then I realized I currently have no digital cable, no HD at all, nothing, just Channels 2-62 and SDTV and have been happy with it. Thus I'm going to enjoy the positives of my new TV, not the negatives. If my visitors complain about a "sucky" or "horrible" picture, I shall try to ignore them and enjoy my purchase.

My installer's agreed to do some hunting for cables and UPS pricing, so if he's cheaper then APC direct or AV Cables directly, I'll go through him too.

Finally the only problems I am slightly worried about is the lag, as we really seem to have many fences to sit on with this issue.

The DVD player is the most worrying though, Bill didn't seem to be fond of the Denon 3910 at all and I was totally planning on pairing this with my Denon AVR-3805 so now I have to look for another solid player, poop.

- D

Alright I'm excited for my TV. At first I was letting all these little issues get to me then I realized I currently have no digital cable, no HD at all, nothing, just Channels 2-62 and SDTV and have been happy with it. Thus I'm going to enjoy the positives of my new TV, not the negatives. If my visitors complain about a "sucky" or "horrible" picture, I shall try to ignore them and enjoy my purchase.

My installer's agreed to do some hunting for cables and UPS pricing, so if he's cheaper then APC direct or AV Cables directly, I'll go through him too.

Finally the only problems I am slightly worried about is the lag, as we really seem to have many fences to sit on with this issue.

The DVD player is the most worrying though, Bill didn't seem to be fond of the Denon 3910 at all and I was totally planning on pairing this with my Denon AVR-3805 so now I have to look for another solid player, poop.

- D

D ... don't totally give up on the 3910, perhaps once more experienced 3910 owners start matching it up with these 1080p sets they will be able to figure out what needs to be done. The good news is how well the TV's looked even with the inexpensive Samsung player ... so I know with a little testing we are going to get some awesome DVD players identified at all price points.

... but I would first like to know how the products compare.)
You may have to wait a while. Magnolia's assistant manager in our store checked his Northern California inventory today, and didn't even find an "expected" date.

That 1080p Mitsubishi in LA is kind of far away for a side by side. ;)

That 1080p Mitsubishi in LA is kind of far away for a side by side. ;)

Maybe some of our So Cal friends will be able to do the job (of comparing the Mits and Sammy 1080p's).

Maybe some of our So Cal friends will be able to do the job (of comparing the Mits and Sammy 1080p's).
That could be tough unless the same dealer carries both. It didn't sound like it.

That could be tough unless the same dealer carries both. It didn't sound like it.

Mag HiFi, of course, carries both. Unfortunately their stores in this area don't seem to have received any of the Mits yet. I presume that Mag HiFi exists also in So Cal.

Please, someone, test for lip sync and tell us what comes out the optical output with the various inputs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is it 2.0, 5.1 or some combination?????

TIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How would you like to have to switch that delay setting back and forth between different values depending on if you are playing a DVD or watching your satellite receiver? No thanks.

Some receivers, those from Harman Kardon and Denon in particular, have audio delay settings that can be set individually for each input. Some other receivers have global settings for audio delay and they would require changing the audio delay every time the signal source was changed.

Alright I'm excited for my TV. At first I was letting all these little issues get to me then I realized I currently have no digital cable, no HD at all, nothing, just Channels 2-62 and SDTV and have been happy with it.

...




Hmmm, am I missing something here. You will be feeding your new Sammy analog SDTV? What size set are you getting? I'm sure you are aware, but analog SDTV will generally look like garbage; even worse the larger the set is...

Alright I'm excited for my TV. At first I was letting all these little issues get to me then I realized I currently have no digital cable, no HD at all, nothing, just Channels 2-62 and SDTV and have been happy with it. Thus I'm going to enjoy the positives of my new TV, not the negatives. If my visitors complain about a "sucky" or "horrible" picture, I shall try to ignore them and enjoy my purchase.

My installer's agreed to do some hunting for cables and UPS pricing, so if he's cheaper then APC direct or AV Cables directly, I'll go through him too.

Finally the only problems I am slightly worried about is the lag, as we really seem to have many fences to sit on with this issue.

The DVD player is the most worrying though, Bill didn't seem to be fond of the Denon 3910 at all and I was totally planning on pairing this with my Denon AVR-3805 so now I have to look for another solid player, poop.

- D
I was the same. The 5668 is my first HDTV. Prior to this we had 10 year old Tosh 16x9 CRT based RPTV that could only do 480i via component.

Don't let the negative posters worry you. :p To me most of their posts are out of context and they are judging something at less than optimal setup. I tossed our set together last night @ about 9pm. Had to do it on the floor and pretty much took all defaults everywhere, even for device types etc. It was still very impressive. My wife and daughter were blown away by the quality and stayed up tell 12am just trying different things.

I will post more details in the users thread in a few minutes. To summarize though you will be blown away I expect. This is the first TV that I ever saw where broadcast TV (1080i OTA feed) was actually better than a DVD (1080i over HDMI). Also no game lag to report on PS2 via component but we only tried one James Bond action game.

Can anyone comment on how much longer the 720p 67 series sets will be easily available? Will stores continue to order these when they run out of current stock?

My plan is to buy a 6167 when the time is right, ie at the lowest price point I can. I'm in no particular hurry, I can wait till fall but don't want to miss out.

When I asked at my local Frys they had 3 6167s in stock and the sales guy thought it was possible they wouldn't order more but I wonder if that's really true...

Any sage advice from experienced shoppers welcomed.

Can anyone comment on how much longer the 720p 67 series sets will be easily available? Will stores continue to order these when they run out of current stock?

My plan is to buy a 6167 when the time is right, ie at the lowest price point I can. I'm in no particular hurry, I can wait till fall but don't want to miss out.

When I asked at my local Frys they had 3 6167s in stock and the sales guy thought it was possible they wouldn't order more but I wonder if that's really true...

Any sage advice from experienced shoppers welcomed.

They will be sold until May / June of 2006 ... or longer. 2006 models should appear at that point.

Good Afternoon,

Is the supply of the 4677 drying up? The delivery to my area, Indy, Ovation store has been pushed back another 2 weeks to the first week in August. Samsung even took back the one on the floor. At least I got to see it before it disappeared. Looked great BTW. Is this the same story in other parts of the country? Firmware or software problem? Anyone?

Hmmm, am I missing something here. You will be feeding your new Sammy analog SDTV? What size set are you getting? I'm sure you are aware, but analog SDTV will generally look like garbage; even worse the larger the set is...

lol no no, I was just stating that I *currently* own a 24" 4:3 SDTV (Sony Wega, so it is a very nice picture for SDTV) and I'm good with that, thus HDTV is probably going to blow me away, thus I shall focus on the good and not the bad.

- D

OT but who else would rather watch SD on a small portion of a large screen TV than see it blown up too large? Why don't manufacturers include options for this?

I don't get TV reception but DVDs I own from SD content, such as the Simpsons, X-files, I love Lucy, 24, Futurama, Transformers etc all look real good so is digital broadcasts of SD material up to par with these DVD transfers? Is it just analog SD that blows or all SD? Or are you all just spoiled by HD (I don't have an HD source, all my viewing is DVD and a bit of video games)?

I'm just curious about the 1080p technology. It seems to me that 720p sets just came out a few years ago and now they are already moving onto another standard. Seems that the new standard could be bumped up to a higher PQ next summer and then 1080p sets will be old. Just my two cents.

I'm just curious about the 1080p technology. It seems to me that 720p sets just came out a few years ago and now they are already moving onto another standard. Seems that the new standard could be bumped up to a higher PQ next summer and then 1080p sets will be old. Just my two cents.Just like computers...they change with Technolgy...it will never end :eek:

1080p is the highest forcasted "standard" as far as I know, obviously there will be higher later, but for the current HD community and for the new upcoming dvd players the technology will be supported (and high end) for a few years at least. I would say it will be 5-7 years before the next thing hits and thats a good life span of a tv, and I'm not saying it will be junk then either. If I recall, 720p and 1080p and the other current standards were all pretty much set at around the same time and you know that the companies are going to try to keep the new dvd players the standard for a while many people are going to be reluctant to change as it is. Just my opinon, if you'd rather wait, then wait.

Seems that the new standard could be bumped up to a higher PQ next summer and then 1080p sets will be old.
720p and 1080i will be the standard for source material for several more years.

As for improved PQ every year, that's going to happen for several more years (or longer) too.

Any TV you buy for the next several years will not be as good as some of the very next year's models.

720p and 1080i will be the standard for source material for several more years.

As for improved PQ every year, that's going to happen for several more years (or longer) too.

Any TV you buy for the next several years will not be as good as some of the very next year's models.

I am not sure if I completely agree with you. Once we have CR of 10,000+ to 1,
CRT like black levels, accurate color decoding and grey scale tracking, etc.
improvements will be minimal. With the 1080p DLPs for those who don't
see rainbows and the new Sony SXRDs, we are, in my opinion, getting
very close to this.

It is a possbility that as early as the 06 models or as late as the 07 models
will reach this point.

When we do, I will be far less hesitant to purchase an expensive high
end TV since I will plan on keeping it for several years.

It is a possbility that as early as the 06 models or as late as the 07 model will reach this point.
Maybe for current resolutions and technology there will be insignificant improvement for 2007. That implies very little head room for Sony's SXRD sets to improve.

I don't expect 1080p or greater source material to be widely available by then.

Only time will tell, and our individual value judgements. :)

Maybe for current resolutions and technology there will be insignificant improvement for 2007. That implies very little head room for Sony's SXRD sets to improve.

I don't expect 1080p or greater source material to be widely available by then.

Only time will tell, and our individual value judgements. :)

I agree. But I don't expect any higher resoluton than 1920x1080 in the
next few years.

I agree. But I don't expect any higher resoluton than 1920x1080 in the
next few years.
I don't either. I was replying to this concern that 1080p sets could be "old" by next summer.


I'm just curious about the 1080p technology. It seems to me that 720p sets just came out a few years ago and now they are already moving onto another standard. Seems that the new standard could be bumped up to a higher PQ next summer and then 1080p sets will be old. Just my two cents.

The next stage in Microdisplay will be 2160p. This will allow both 1080 (line doubled) and 720 (line trippled) to be displayed without artifact.

I am NOT suggesting that we will see any 2160 native content. 1080p is probably the limit for at least the next decade. It took over 50 years to move up from 480.

The next stage in Microdisplay will be 2160p. This will allow both 1080 (line doubled) and 720 (line trippled) to be displayed without artifact.

I am NOT suggesting that we will see any 2160 native content. 1080p is probably the limit for at least the next decade. It took over 50 years to move up from 480.

This is a possibility but the process of line doubling introduces artifacts since
an up conversion is necessary...

I am not sure if I completely agree with you. Once we have CR of 10,000+ to 1,
CRT like black levels, accurate color decoding and grey scale tracking, etc.
improvements will be minimal. With the 1080p DLPs for those who don't
see rainbows and the new Sony SXRDs, we are, in my opinion, getting
very close to this.

It is a possbility that as early as the 06 models or as late as the 07 models
will reach this point.

When we do, I will be far less hesitant to purchase an expensive high
end TV since I will plan on keeping it for several years.

Well ... we have to then just wait for the 3-chip DLP sets :D

The next stage in Microdisplay will be 2160p. This will allow both 1080 (line doubled) and 720 (line trippled) to be displayed without artifact.

OK. I'll take one, but it better be all digital everything with no "gotchas" relating to computer input. It also better accept it's native resolution so the line multiplication can be done externally. :cool:

This is a possibility but the process of line doubling introduces artifacts since
an up conversion is necessary...

I don't agree, Upconversion by integral amounts can easilly be done so that the result is just as good as the original. There is no reason why 2160 can not display both 1080 and 720 material with equal quality to fixed pixel panels of 1080 and 720 resolution respectively. You are refering to line doubling this is pixel quading (made up term) which is lossless and artifact free.

I don't agree, Upconversion by integral amounts can easilly be done so that the result is just as good as the original. There is no reason why 2160 can not display both 1080 and 720 material with equal quality to fixed pixel panels of 1080 and 720 resolution respectively. You are refering to line doubling this is pixel quading (made up term) which is lossless and artifact free.

"Pixel quading" is lossless and artifact free because you simply duplicate
a pixel four times creating four times the resolution.

But going from 1080p to 2160p requires interpolation which introduces
artifacts, that is information that was not contained in the source.

OK. I'll take one, but it better be all digital everything with no "gotchas" relating to computer input. It also better accept it's native resolution so the line multiplication can be done externally. :cool:

Let's also remember to make it reasonably AFFORDABLE.

...the process of line doubling introduces artifacts since
an up conversion is necessary...

True, in general, but exactly doubling or tripling (or any integer multiple) does not create artifacts.

Let's also remember to make it reasonably AFFORDABLE.
I was going to include that provision until I remembered that I have plans to win the lottery before these sets hit the market. :D

"Pixel quading" is lossless and artifact free because you simply duplicate
a pixel four times creating four times the resolution.

But going from 1080p to 2160p requires interpolation which introduces
artifacts, that is information that was not contained in the source.

Pixel quading is a perfectly acceptable method of interpolating from 1080p to 2160p, others may prefer other algorithms for this interpolation that have the advantage of possibly increasing the apparent resolution of the signal with the downside that certain unwanted artifacts will necessarily be introduced, some of those artifacts are desired (by some who would choose these methods of interpolation over simple pixel quading).

So a 2160p display is not necessarily as good for 1080p material (720 respectively) as a native pixel display, but a 2160p display that has an option to use pixel quading to interpolate 1080p material is capable of displaying the material as well as a 1080p display (although a certain 1080p display can potentially do a better job than a certain 2160p display it is not a theoretical requirement)

Pixel quading is a perfectly acceptable method of interpolating from 1080p to 2160p, others may prefer other algorithms for this interpolation that have the advantage of possibly increasing the apparent resolution of the signal with the downside that certain unwanted artifacts will necessarily be introduced, some of those artifacts are desired (by some who would choose these methods of interpolation over simple pixel quading).

So a 2160p display is not necessarily as good for 1080p material (720 respectively) as a native pixel display, but a 2160p display that has an option to use pixel quading to interpolate 1080p material is capable of displaying the material as well as a 1080p display (although a certain 1080p display can potentially do a better job than a certain 2160p display it is not a theoretical requirement)

I will take a native 1080p display and native 1080p source any day of the week.

But I am not geting how you can map from 1080p to 2160p without introducing
any artifacts - can you explain this?

Assume you have 1920x1080 signal, and want to display it at 3840x2160. The pixel count is 4x, so just turn every single pixel into four (arranged into a square obviously).

Assume you have 1920x1080 signal, and want to display it at 3840x2160. The pixel count is 4x, so just turn every single pixel into four (arranged into a square obviously).

Dahh, I got you, and I agree.

This is what I said in the beginning, for some reason I was thinking
that 7680x4320 was needed.

Yes, in the case of 3840x2160 there are no errors introduced from
a 1920x1080 input but at the same time I suspect that only very large
screens, i.e. over 70 or 80 in. or even considerably larger will benefit
from this.

Please excuse if this is question has been asked already, but I couldn't find it specifically ansered. What is the difference between the 68 and 78 models, besides the cosmetics of the units. The lead post mentioned that it was thought that the components where all the same.

Please excuse if this is question has been asked already, but I couldn't find it specifically ansered. What is the difference between the 68 and 78 models, besides the cosmetics of the units. The lead post mentioned that it was thought that the components where all the same.

All the info and evidence is that they are identical except for the form of the cabinet.

All the info and evidence is that they are identical except for the form of the cabinet.

Great, thanks. I personally like the look of the 68's and didn't want to miss anything by not getting the 78. Now, it's just waiting.... :)

Dahh, I got you, and I agree.

This is what I said in the beginning, for some reason I was thinking
that 7680x4320 was needed.

Yes, in the case of 3840x2160 there are no errors introduced from
a 1920x1080 input but at the same time I suspect that only very large
screens, i.e. over 70 or 80 in. or even considerably larger will benefit
from this.

Ah, yes a simple misunderstanding, I am glad we are on the same page again :)

I agree 2160p would not be a substantial improvement (at least for my 56" screen at 9-10 ft) but it does hold the process of showing 1080 and 720 without artifacts per our earlier discussion. Of course to do the same with 480 we would need 4320 as you were thinking (that would be 9x9 = 81 pixels per source pixel). I believe that it is the general plan for the eventual next generation of HDTV since it matches the resolution used by movie studios to scan movie film and master special effects. That will probably be the end of the road for digital video.

On the Sony SXRD 50" and 60" - Oct/Nov Thread:

"The 1080P DLP's being sold now don't match up to what was shown at the CES - I'm told the Demo had a full 1080P chip while the consumer models coming out only have the "wobulated" chip. That probably accounts for them not being as good as the one that was demo'd at the CES. 1080P DLP's are still much better than the 720P's, but if the JVC 1080P's had a better PQ than the the full-chip 1080P DLP's, i'll leave it up to you as to how much better they will be than the "wobulated" 1080P DLP's."

Is this true ?

On the Sony SXRD 50" and 60" - Oct/Nov Thread:

"The 1080P DLP's being sold now don't match up to what was shown at the CES - I'm told the Demo had a full 1080P chip while the consumer models coming out only have the "wobulated" chip. That probably accounts for them not being as good as the one that was demo'd at the CES. 1080P DLP's are still much better than the 720P's, but if the JVC 1080P's had a better PQ than the the full-chip 1080P DLP's, i'll leave it up to you as to how much better they will be than the "wobulated" 1080P DLP's."

Is this true ?

No. Check out this post on the same thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5930878&&#post5930878

Is there any advantage in using the $150.00 HDMI cable over the $75.00 cable???

On the Sony SXRD 50" and 60" - Oct/Nov Thread:

"The 1080P DLP's being sold now don't match up to what was shown at the CES - I'm told the Demo had a full 1080P chip while the consumer models coming out only have the "wobulated" chip. That probably accounts for them not being as good as the one that was demo'd at the CES. 1080P DLP's are still much better than the 720P's, but if the JVC 1080P's had a better PQ than the the full-chip 1080P DLP's, i'll leave it up to you as to how much better they will be than the "wobulated" 1080P DLP's."

Is this true ?
That's gazelle who was being told that inside information. You must consider the source until you get the same information from reliable sources.

He followed it with this objective observation.

"Of course, this is assuming the PQ on the consumer JVC's will be the same as at the CES. As we now know, this was NOT the case with the DLP's."

Samsung displayed their sets and probably TI had a demo unit at the show. It may make a difference which units gazelle was being told about.

Remember this: According to the gazelle gospel all 1080p DLP sets yet to arrive will be better than Samsung 1080p DLP sets. Of course all those 1080p DLP sets yet to arrive were not at CES, but gazelle knows.

I don't know.

Many others who seem to have industry connections don't seem to know either.

Your guess is as good as any one elses other than "you know who".

Is there any advantage in using the $150.00 HDMI cable over the $75.00 cable???
There are many many reports that $20-$30 cables have worked just as well as either of those two price point if you are talking about runs of a few meters.

Two weeks ago i checked the price for 6168 @ tVA but did not order, yesterday when i'm ready to order the price is 500 higher for the 6168, is the powerbuy over? If not, how do i order as AVS member?

Also i was able to thank USCB personally @ Mag HI-FI for sharing his insights regarding this new technology. Again, thanks USCB and to all of those who read this forum to learn and share.

Is there any advantage in using the $150.00 HDMI cable over the $75.00 cable???

Not as much as with an analog cable.

With analog communications noise distorts the signal in a linear fashion so less noise is required to achieve a better signal. With digital communications noise is required to achieve a threshold amount before distorting a signal so that if the noise is kept sufficiently small absolutetly no errors will make it into the signal. Due to the random nature of noise however we can not absolutely guarantee such a threshold. When a random noise fluctuation is greter than the noise threshold this is translated into a bit error (or series of bit errors) in the transmitted signal. Fortunately error correction codes (even simple checksums) are able to either detect these incorrect sequences of bits and ask the source to retransmit them (this is how the Internet generally works e.g. TCP) or actually correct them (this is how deep space probe communication works, the difference being in the cost of retransmission, read latency).

So a better cable may have a lower bit-error-rate than a cheap cable, which holding all else equal, varies the expected time between bit errors that are not caught by error correction in an exponentially increasing fashion. With decent cables however this expected time between errors is very large and this increase is not necessarily worth any cost (much less, $75!!!).

Digital communications is far superior technology which among other things masks noise much better than analog communications.

Buy the cheap cable :D

Two weeks ago i checked the price for 6168 @ tVA but did not order, yesterday when i'm ready to order the price is 500 higher for the 6168, is the powerbuy over? If not, how do i order as AVS member?

Also i was able to thank USCB personally @ Mag HI-FI for sharing his insights regarding this new technology. Again, thanks USCB and to all of those who read this forum to learn and share.

Read the post at the following link and enter the TVA site through the provided link. You must add the set to the cart to see the special forum pricing:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5699561&&#post5699561

Is there any advantage in using the $150.00 HDMI cable over the $75.00 cable???

Depends. I would try the cheaper cable as long as you can return it.

With HDMI, better doesn't mean better PQ since it is all or nothing but a better
cable can allow you to have a longer length...

I will be using the HDMI cable for video ONLY. Will I still need the better cable for the best possible picture?? I will be running the cable from a direct tv H10 box to a 6168 (when I get it). Thanks for your reply.

I will be using the HDMI cable for video ONLY. Will I still need the better cable for the best possible picture??
That's not relevant unless your STB is a long way from your display you will be just fine with the cheaper cables.

John Jones' is correct, buy a cheap cable from a known company, over such short distances line losses and noise in the line will be negligible (termination would be more of a factor and that is for your receiver and tv to work out). It should be shielded and have good contacts. While the cables have valid properties to make them better, as an engineer I find the "designer cables" (Monster) to be a horrible exploit of the average consumer. Just wanted to back up the point.

BTW, good explanation Jones, saved me some typing.

On the Sony SXRD 50" and 60" - Oct/Nov Thread:

"The 1080P DLP's being sold now don't match up to what was shown at the CES - I'm told the Demo had a full 1080P chip while the consumer models coming out only have the "wobulated" chip. That probably accounts for them not being as good as the one that was demo'd at the CES. 1080P DLP's are still much better than the 720P's, but if the JVC 1080P's had a better PQ than the the full-chip 1080P DLP's, i'll leave it up to you as to how much better they will be than the "wobulated" 1080P DLP's."

Is this true ?I see Gazelle's at work again :rolleyes:

If you use HDMI cable to hook up a Hd dvd player do you get a better picture?? I was thinking of getting a Samsung HD 950 to connect to my 6168.

I see Gazelle's at work again :rolleyes:

You guessed it!

Has anyone heard when the 7178's are expected to appear? Anywhere (TVA, Magnolia, etc.)?
Since they are apparantly going to be the last ones to appear, perhaps any bugs that may be in the early sets will all be ironed out by the time the 'big ones' get here. :)

If you use HDMI cable to hook up a Hd dvd player do you get a better picture?? I was thinking of getting a Samsung HD 950 to connect to my 6168.
Yes but the HD950 is a SD upscaling DVD player. Using a HDMI cable with it should give you the best results. There are no HD DVD players on the market yet.

If you use HDMI cable to hook up a Hd dvd player do you get a better picture?? I was thinking of getting a Samsung HD 950 to connect to my 6168.

In case you didn't know, the HD 950 includes the HDMI cable!

:rolleyes: Gazelle Fan Club out there? I've had him on IGNORE for a few months so I rarely see what he's asserting but I find it comically entertaining to a certain extent to sit on the sidelines not seeing his comments unless you guys paste a piece in - but I've never seen him support a single statement with objective Facts, Evidence of any kind - NEVER!

Did someone at Samsung kill his family or something? I've copied virtually every persons feedback on the new Samsung 1080P's into a running text file and overwhelming majority are Fantastic results so how does he make these B.S. assertions that certainly do not match up to the evaluations by owners and in-store reviews? Oh that's right - He's Gazelle - the Sniper! What troubles me is a new member that comes in and see's his assertions and is trusting he's offering Fact and they may not know any better as a newbie - Oh well hopefully they read on as the vast majority of new owners and reviewers have provided feedback confirming these match up to the sets at CES despite what he's spouting.

Bring it on Gazelle and hyperlink these comments and your inside info where is it besides in your gray matter alone :cool: !

I'm just curious about the 1080p technology. It seems to me that 720p sets just came out a few years ago and now they are already moving onto another standard. Seems that the new standard could be bumped up to a higher PQ next summer and then 1080p sets will be old. Just my two cents.
The high def standard was always set for 1080i. Most TV's supported the input and possibly processed the content at 1080 but nobody until recently actually showed it at that resolution. Note that because of bandwidth limitations in trying to stay within 5 mhz, broadcast TV could not do better than 1080i. This is why their is a split in the camps between 1080i and 720p.

Could someone make a better resolution than 1080? Sure but their is no standard for the content so why bother? It would certainly not be mainstream and would have to work like the conversion of DVD content from 480 to 1080 now.

:rolleyes: Gazelle Fan Club out there? I've had him on IGNORE for a few months so I rarely see what he's asserting but I find it comically entertaining to a certain extent to sit on the sidelines not seeing his comments unless you guys paste a piece in - but I've never seen him support a single statement with objective Facts, Evidence of any kind - NEVER!

Did someone at Samsung kill his family or something? I've copied virtually every persons feedback on the new Samsung 1080P's into a running text file and overwhelming majority are Fantastic results so how does he make these B.S. assertions that certainly do not match up to the evaluations by owners and in-store reviews? Oh that's right - He's Gazelle - the Sniper! What troubles me is a new member that comes in and see's his assertions and is trusting he's offering Fact and they may not know any better as a newbie - Oh well hopefully they read on as the vast majority of new owners and reviewers have provided feedback confirming these match up to the sets at CES despite what he's spouting.

Bring it on Gazelle and hyperlink these comments and your inside info where is it besides in your gray matter alone :cool: !


These types of posts are even less constructive than gazelle's.

The high def standard was always set for 1080i. Most TV's supported the input and possibly processed the content at 1080 but nobody until recently actually showed it at that resolution. Note that because of bandwidth limitations in trying to stay within 5 mhz, broadcast TV could not do better than 1080i. This is why their is a split in the camps between 1080i and 720p.

Could someone make a better resolution than 1080? Sure but their is no standard for the content so why bother? It would certainly not be mainstream and would have to work like the conversion of DVD content from 480 to 1080 now.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

It does seem that stations out there are split with 1080 and 720. Does this mean they will stay split or possibly choose one or the other?

There's seem to be a lot of discussion about whether the new 1080p's accept a true 1080p signal. Most recent posts seem to indicate that it will not (except for the VGA input, which is still problematic) accept a true 1080p. Samsung Customer Service confirms that it will only upconvert a signal to 1080p, and some posts (from new owners) seem to indicate that the upconversion process works better on some inputs than others [perhaps due to the native source material].

My question is (and this applies to upconverting DVD players as well), how noticeable is the difference between a true 1080p signal and one that has been upconverted? Are we talking a miniscule difference, or one that puts us in the camp of holding off for a better technology/upgrade/model? I believe this question is part of UCSB's "unanswered" section, but how do we go about testing this? Do we take a 1080p video feed from the computer through the VGA port of the Samsung and do a side by side comparison through another input? How do we also know if we're getting true 1080p?

And now there are other questions about the 60fps vs. the 24fps difference, with the former being the television's capabilities, and the latter being Blu-Ray's potential capabilities. Has technology advanced to the point where the medium can't support it? I'm getting confused (or perhaps I just always have been).

All I can say is, I've seen the new Samsung 1080p and it looks stunning. But is stunning good enough?

--------

"I may not know art, but I know what I like"

These types of posts are even less constructive than gazelle's.
It's a close race. :eek:

These types of posts are even less constructive than gazelle's.

Perhaps, but they would never be made if it weren't for Gazelle "at work."

Can't we all just get along!! :rolleyes:

My question is (and this applies to upconverting DVD players as well), how noticeable is the difference between a true 1080p signal and one that has been upconverted? ...


We won't know for sure, until we have TVs that accept 1080p and we can compare etc. But the conventional wisdom is that no processing is better than any processing. So, 1080p accepted and 1:1 pixel mapping is better than 1080p --> 1080i --> 1080p that has to happen when HiDef DVDs come out this/next year.

Re the hlr 7178:

Just talked to Magnolia HiFi, and they say the 7178 is in their computer to appear Aug 10; but they also said that this date is a code, meaing 'sometime in Aug'! So it looks like it will be another month for the 'big one'. For comparison, the Mits 73727 is in the computer for Sept/Oct.

I also asked about the horrible service reports that one has heard almost uniformly about Mitsubishi (compared to the, also uniformly, GOOD reports one hears about Samsung), saying that I was interested in comparing the Mits and Sammy products but was very nervous about these reports about Mits service. MagHiFi said that they make all decisions about repair or replacement of problem sets themselves (since they do all service 'in house'), and then they themselves deal with Mits/Sammy. Sounds pretty reassuring; is this consistent with what people have experienced?

We won't know for sure, until we have TVs that accept 1080p and we can compare etc. But the conventional wisdom is that no processing is better than any processing. So, 1080p accepted and 1:1 pixel mapping is better than 1080p --> 1080i --> 1080p that has to happen when HiDef DVDs come out this/next year.

Good point. I'm planning to get the TV anyway, but out of curiosity (minor brainstorm here), is there anyone out there that can make the analogy with a 720p TV? For example, how much better is the PQ for a TV that accepts a 720p native input, vs. a DVD player (or TV) that upconverts to 720p? Do they look the same? What differences, if any, are noticed?

I posted a similar question to this one on the 1080p owner’s thread. When calibrating an HDTV, using DVE, is it correct to leave the image in letter box format? I noticed that if you expand the image to fill the screen the blacker than black area will blend into the background, making the adjustment very difficult. If you leave the image in 4:3 letter box format the blacker than black area is very apparent and is easily adjustable. Is this true on other sets?

I am using a 6168 with a 5 year old DVD player over component.

Has anyone ever used Better Made cables? If so how would you rate them?

Good point. I'm planning to get the TV anyway, but out of curiosity (minor brainstorm here), is there anyone out there that can make the analogy with a 720p TV? For example, how much better is the PQ for a TV that accepts a 720p native input, vs. a DVD player (or TV) that upconverts to 720p? Do they look the same? What differences, if any, are noticed?

Not sure it would be a useful analogy since one would be taking native 1080i source and deinterlacing to 1080p whereas the other is taking whatever native source you might be thinking (anything other than 720i since there is none ;)) and upconverting/deinterlacing (whatever the case may be given that the source can be 480i, 480p, 1080i; is there any native 480p source? are non-HD digital channels, e.g., cable or satellite, 480p native?) to 720p.

But in general, I have been wondering about the very same question. What I've recently come to believe is that the larger the TV (e.g., 70+), the bigger the difference we might be able to see.