Cool stuff guys!

I know I love the sound quality from my Elite, and I couldn't tell a difference between it and the higher priced Onkyo SP1000.

On the firmware versions, as already suggested my guess is that the "main" revision number is 1.5, and that the subsequent digits merely distinguish regions, though why there's a difference between the Aussie region-free version of 1.516 and the SEA version of 1.526 is beyond me. Are Aussie machines multi-system as well? The SEA version certainly is.

Anecdotal reference on the "bottom-end" -- when I first hooked up the 969, I was surprised to find that with digital coax output to the receiver, the sub was suddenly way too loud and I had to turn it down immediately, compared to the results with my older Pioneer 655.

Originally posted by Rob Tomlin
Cool stuff guys!

I know I love the sound quality from my Elite, and I couldn't tell a difference between it and the higher priced Onkyo SP1000.

I thought you only compared digital outs with your Parasound. Did you get a chance to compare SACD and red book via analog?

I felt these two player had a significantly different sound. I guess it's a good thing for you as you saved a few $ and got the video player you prefered as well. :)

I have a new 59AVi (Nov. 04) and just purchased the DVD-A Eagles Hotel California. Is there some secret to getting the Disc Menu Captures (Top Menu) to display? Is there a bonus code you need to input in the initial settings to get them to play on the 59AVi that is hidden on the DVD itself?

I cannot get the menu to display on my TV which allows you to select the layer menus.

Re: Hotel California

Try this:

On the 59avi, go to Initial Settings...Options...DVD Playback Mode...DVD-Video.

BTW, do you prefer the DTS or DD mix?

James

I just realized that this was not what you were asking.

I now have the same question. How do you get to the top menu? For example, if I want to play the stereo mix, how do I select it?

James

Because of the copyright protection the menu will not appear if I use HDMI to my TV. I had to run an S-Video cable from my 59AVi to the TV so I can see the DVD-A menu.

Aargh!!!

I put the same DVD-A into my 47a and the menu is different. It gives me the choice between multi-channel and stereo.

Any ideas?

I just tried that myself with my DVD-A of Hotel California.

No menu from HDMI, works fine from component.

Originally posted by mimason
I thought you only compared digital outs with your Parasound. Did you get a chance to compare SACD and red book via analog?

I felt these two player had a significantly different sound. I guess it's a good thing for you as you saved a few $ and got the video player you prefered as well. :)

No. I compared BOTH analog and the digital outs. As I explained previously though, the comparison of the analog outs was more difficult and less accurate due to the amount of time between listening to the two sources.

What's the latest word on the chroma (Y/C) delay issue? Has it been fixed with updated firmware or was it a production fix?

I own the 59ai and the Sony KDF-60XS955 which uses a native resolution of 1386 x 788. I have the TV hooked up via HDMI.

My question. Since my TV uses a non-standard resolution I assume that I would be best feeding my TV a 480i (or 480p) signal and letting the TV handle the upconversion.

Are my assumptions correct?

-Brian

Originally posted by Bghead8che
I own the 59ai and the Sony KDF-60XS955 which uses a native resolution of 1386 x 788. I have the TV hooked up via HDMI.

My question. Since my TV uses a non-standard resolution I assume that I would be best feeding my TV a 480i (or 480p) signal and letting the TV handle the upconversion.

Are my assumptions correct?

-Brian

Brian-

I would say that if you are going to "assume" anything, this would be the safest assumption. However, I would suggest that you do your own "tests" with various output resolutions and see which one looks best to you. A lot of this will depend on the quality of the processing on the Sony.

Originally posted by armoury
On the firmware versions, as already suggested my guess is that the "main" revision number is 1.5, and that the subsequent digits merely distinguish regions, though why there's a difference between the Aussie region-free version of 1.516 and the SEA version of 1.526 is beyond me. Are Aussie machines multi-system as well? The SEA version certainly is.


Yep, Aussie machines are multi-region out of the box, it is illegal here to sell DVD Players with region encoding and thus every manufacturer MUST make it multi-region !

Just a stupid question, but what is SEA?


Ritesh

it is illegal here to sell DVD Players with region encoding and thus every manufacturer MUST make it multi-region !

Wow, that is awesome! Region coding is the most ridiculous annoying POS... gosh!

it is illegal here to sell DVD Players with region encoding and thus every manufacturer MUST make it multi-region !

don't worry - with your new Free Trade Agreement with the US that law will disappear soon enough.

Just a stupid question, but what is SEA?

South East Asia

Re: Post #494: Would some of you "in the know" go back and read my post #494 and please respond. I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

William,

Pioneer has not been forthcoming in letting anyone know what each firmware update does. It appears that 406 fixes the Y/C delay at least. Unknown what 506 does. The only way to upgrade is to send the unit to Pioneer.

As far as the HDMI goes, I'm not presently using it so others will have to answer your question.

Finally checked my firmware:
Born on date...June 2004
Firmware: 506

Fantastic player

Originally posted by PaulT_BC
don't worry - with your new Free Trade Agreement with the US that law will disappear soon enough.



:(

I think there may be new firmware beyond 506. My DV-59AVi is in for repair. I was told that the Firmware was checked first and I had the latest version (they did not specify the firmware).

I subsequently got a phone message saying return of my now repaired unit was being delayed for new Firmware they had to order, which they were unaware of until very recently. When I get it back, I'll check out the firmware and post

Interesting that they continue to update this model.

I ordered a brand new one today, and the salesman requested the latest version on the PO, so we'll see what I get.

I checked the demo model in the store and it was ancient (Nov 2003) at version 306! It did have the chroma delay (<1 pixel) on component, but none on HDMI.

I know this is stupid but in case when i get a chance i cant find it, how do i tell what firmware rev my player is?

John

Read the first post in this thread.

Great thanks!

John

HERE IS SOMETHING EVERYONE MAY WISH TO KNOW ABOUT FIRMWARE UPGRADES! I wrote to Pio customer service about this and here in part is what they said, and I quote: "Firmware upgrades relate to playback issues with some DVD audio due to the new music copywright act. The upgrade is NOT to improve the unit as the issue is not with the player but with a specific disc. If your unit (DV59AVi) is not having playback issues with a specific disc, then you do not need a firmware upgrade and the version you have (1.406) is the latest for that model." So, I guess the hidden message here is not to worry about firmware unless certain discs won't play back. WHEW! I WAS REALLY SWEATING BULLETS OVER THAT ONE! Just kidding)

great

How can I get a dvd to play from the same position once the dvd has been removed.. When I try program memory it says it can't be activated from here. Can this be done?

brian

Originally posted by bkushner
How can I get a dvd to play from the same position once the dvd has been removed.. When I try program memory it says it can't be activated from here. Can this be done?

brian

I have the same thing happen as well. I think it's mentioned in the manual that resume is canceled if you hit stop twice or open the tray.

Originally posted by Fred Krampits
I have the same thing happen as well. I think it's mentioned in the manual that resume is canceled if you hit stop twice or open the tray.

Take a look at my previous posts 462, 469 & 476 about the memory feature. I couldn't get it to work consistently & haven't had a chance to play w/ it since then.

Let us know if you can figure it out.

Doug

Stopped by my local AV store today and asked them about the Pioneer 59AVi and Denon 3910. They indicated they had (2) 59AVi's at the warehouse - 38% off MSRP. Tempted. With so much talk about manufacture date and firmware version - is there anything I should inquire about before I pull the trigger?

I asked how they handled firmware updates - they looked at me like I was from mars.

I have a Pioneer Pro920 plasma - good results with this combo? I currently have a Denon 1600 - frankly the PQ is great with that player. They did not have a demo unit - stated the players are sold as fast as they get them, and I would have 7 days to return if I did not think the PQ beat my current Denon.

Originally posted by tpaxadpom
As far as the sound quality goes I would definately recommend to upgrade the power cable. I built flavor 3 VenHaus power cord (http://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html). Chris (the owner of VenHaus)sells all the parts you need to build this cable. You can purchase this cable pre-built if you don't want to spend your time on building one.
Also I noticed that the power cable changed the brightnes and color/tint settings. I had to readjust TV settings after I've changed it. [/B]

Just wondering if anyone else has tried changing the power-cord and observed any different (hopefully for the better) in either SQ or PQ?
(hopefully I am not opening a can of worms :) )

Ritesh

I did replace my power cord because I specifically wanted a shielded one, but did I get any improvement in picture quality or audio? Nope. :) I just have a "thing" about using shielded interconnects *and* power cords.

Originally posted by dougotte
Take a look at my previous posts 462, 469 & 476 about the memory feature. I couldn't get it to work consistently & haven't had a chance to play w/ it since then.

Let us know if you can figure it out.

Doug

Doug:

I can't get a disc that allows program memory either. My program memory features are always greyed out. I'm amazed that PowerDVD will remember a disc without doing anything but a $1K player can't do this?

Brian

Why would anyone use memory? I mean, when you rent a movie, don't you hit play, watch it, and return the DVD to the case??

Or is this just about playing around with mindless features?

Some discs allow you to and some don't... from my experience it is 50/50... not a big deal at all.

As for the power cord, given that the one the player comes with isn't made of spaghetti, replacing it will do nothing for you.

Originally posted by thebland
Why would anyone use memory? I mean, when you rent a movie, don't you hit play, watch it, and return the DVD to the case??

Or is this just about playing around with mindless features?

Well not always. Sometimes you can't finish a movie or tv show and someone else wants to use the machine. That's just one instance.

Originally posted by bkushner
Well not always. Sometimes you can't finish a movie or tv show and someone else wants to use the machine. That's just one instance.

The answer for that is a second, cheap DVD player for the other users. I have a Bravo D2 piece of crap as DVD2 and they can have at that one all they want. My 59 AVi is ONLY for the feature presentation! :D

Here is another question I have. I've noticed when watching movies I have some problems with the REDS blotching. A red wall for instance, looks blotchy or melting, same for a red shirt. Is this the player?

Originally posted by thebland
Why would anyone use memory? I mean, when you rent a movie, don't you hit play, watch it, and return the DVD to the case??

Or is this just about playing around with mindless features?

Uh, yeah...just another mindless feature for us mindless folks! I already gave the reasons why I use the feature, way back when the topic first came up.

Doug:rolleyes:

Originally posted by bkushner
Doug:

I can't get a disc that allows program memory either. My program memory features are always greyed out. I'm amazed that PowerDVD will remember a disc without doing anything but a $1K player can't do this?

Brian

I tried it on To Have and Have Not last night, and it did work. However, it takes a lot of steps, when you reinsert the disc it automatically starts playing instead of waiting for you to choose Play, it goes to the beginning of the chapter and not the moment you paused, and finally: it plays back the memorized chapter and then stops!

In short, it's much more trouble than its worth. I agree, why would a cheap player like my old Sony have a feature like this, but not the Elite? It seems like it would be easy technically. The player simply memorizes the last stopped or paused location for any particular disc. I guess the answer can be found in this thread: most people never use it.

Doug

Originally posted by UMD_Terp
As for the power cord, given that the one the player comes with isn't made of spaghetti, replacing it will do nothing for you.

LOL! :D

Originally posted by bkushner
Here is another question I have. I've noticed when watching movies I have some problems with the REDS blotching. A red wall for instance, looks blotchy or melting, same for a red shirt. Is this the player?

I noticed something weird in the reds on the store's old demo unit. I saw it on the red 'A' in the AVIA main menu. It was more like a washed out banding. I figured it was either due to the old buggy firmware it was running (1.306) or the TV.

Originally posted by AVfile
I noticed something weird in the reds on the store's old demo unit. I saw it on the red 'A' in the AVIA main menu. It was more like a washed out banding. I figured it was either due to the old buggy firmware it was running (1.306) or the TV.

I was just about on the verge of returning my 3910, do to green push and btb issues, and picking up the 59avi, but reading this have made me think twice. Now I'm considering getting a cheap progressive scan player and waiting for Blu-Ray.

Can someboby build player that we can stick disc in and it will look great:mad:

It didn't stop me from ordering a new one. The store demo was built way back in NOV 2003. If they were all like that they would have been flunked by the reviewers, and everyone on here would be puking all over it. If it's good enough for Kris Deering it should be good enough for us. Pioneer has long since fixed the only major gripe Secrets had with it (chroma delay). A company with such a long standing reputation for reference video quality would not let this slip by.

I suggest you go to an Elite dealer and try before you buy. I will be testing my very own unit in a couple days, before it leaves the store.

Originally posted by bkushner
Here is another question I have. I've noticed when watching movies I have some problems with the REDS blotching. A red wall for instance, looks blotchy or melting, same for a red shirt. Is this the player?

I noticed this in scene two of AOTC, in Palpatine's red room. This was before Avia calibration, after which the problem went away.

I am having numerous problems with compression artifacts that I mentioned earlier, but am doing some more comparisons before posting.

Originally posted by bkushner
How can I get a dvd to play from the same position once the dvd has been removed.. When I try program memory it says it can't be activated from here. Can this be done?

brian

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure you can't. Not if you remove the disc. If you press Stop and then turn off the unit (using standby not the main power switch) and then turn it on again you should be able to resume. But only if you leave the disc in. Also, if you press stop twice you're smoked.

Now it wasn't always like this, on my very first pio this wasn't a problem. It's something they introduced when they "upgraded" their DVD series a few years back.

Also, on some later models you can't turn off the display completely. Yeah, you can dim it but not turn it off completely like you could on say an oldie like the pio 717.

You win some, you lose some.

Originally posted by Auditor55
I was just about on the verge of returning my 3910, do to green push and btb issues, and picking up the 59avi, but reading this have made me think twice. Now I'm considering getting a cheap progressive scan player and waiting for Blu-Ray.

Can someboby build player that we can stick disc in and it will look great:mad:

If you have tried the 3910 and found it to be not to your liking, then you should give the 59avi a turn provided you can take the 3910 back and have the option of taking the 59avi back as well if it is not to your liking either... FWIW, this player has been great with my Mits. DLP... I seem to remember you went from a Mits DLP to a Diamond CRT, correct? I think this player would look great on your CRT as well...

Originally posted by bkushner
Here is another question I have. I've noticed when watching movies I have some problems with the REDS blotching. A red wall for instance, looks blotchy or melting, same for a red shirt. Is this the player?

Before (1 year ago) Pio players suffered really badly from the CUE bug (chroma upsampling error) which is most evident in red scenes. This is a flaw in the MPEG decoder, Mitsubishi in earlier models. Which decoder they use now I'm not sure, but the algorithms is probably better. However, even though the new decoder is apparently a bit better the CUE can still rear it's ugly head. So although it's better in some situations it can still manifest itself.

Check out the info on Secrets here (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all#Pioneer%20EliteDV%20-%2059AVi)

One would think that a brand like Pio wouldn't have this, but it's only something that they've begun to address the last year...

Originally posted by UMD_Terp
If you have tried the 3910 and found it to be not to your liking, then you should give the 59avi a turn provided you can take the 3910 back and have the option of taking the 59avi back as well if it is not to your liking either... FWIW, this player has been great with my Mits. DLP... I seem to remember you went from a Mits DLP to a Diamond CRT, correct? I think this player would look great on your CRT as well...

I finally got a chance to see this player hooked up to a Mits 65" inch CRT and when I did I wasn't that impressed with the PQ over 3910. It might be better, but I don't want to get one only to inherit a different set of problems from the 3910. Also, I would have cough up another $300 more than what I paid for the Denon to get the 59avi.

Why did you choose the 59avi over the 3910? I assume you checked out both players?

Originally posted by Auditor55
I finally got a chance to see this player hooked up to a Mits 65" inch CRT and when I did I wasn't that impressed with the PQ over 3910. It might be better, but I don't want to get one only to inherit a different set of problems from the 3910. Also, I would have cough up another $300 more than what I paid for the Denon to get the 59avi.

Why did you choose the 59avi over the 3910? I assume you checked out both players?

Basically since I have a DLP, I didn't want to deal with the possibility of having the macroblocking issue at all, especially on a $1k+ player. I found that both players looked fairly similar, but I did not have a chance to look at both with my display. I think the problems with the 59avi are minor... the issues of passing BTB and potential macroblocking on the 3910 made the decision easier... I think your assessment regarding both players is correct in that they both produce a good, comparable picture. To my eyes, the 59avi looked better... and it was a few hundred cheaper than the 3910... I could find no good deals locally on either player and went with Hippo's Audio Video... they are authorized and had a great price as compared to local dealers...

UMD_Terp:

Smart choice. I own one and it looks smashing on the Qualia.

Enjoy.

Originally posted by Auditor55
I was just about on the verge of returning my 3910, do to green push and btb issues, and picking up the 59avi, but reading this have made me think twice. Now I'm considering getting a cheap progressive scan player and waiting for Blu-Ray.

Can someboby build player that we can stick disc in and it will look great:mad:

The DV-59avi looks *great*. I a/b demo'ed the 3910 and the 59-avi on a DPX-1100
with a Stewart Filmscreen and the 59avi beat the pants off the 3910. It wasn't
even a contest.

Explain how the first generation blu-ray player will make your existing collection of dvd's look better? Certainly blu-ray discs will look great, but I don't think regular dvd's will look much better (probably worse since the machines will be built to exploit the capabilities of blu-ray, not regular dvd) on a dv-59avi or even a 3910.

It happened last week when watching Ray, and this week watching another movie. Everything is working fine until the movie we're watching goes through a layer change. Then, the sound goes out. The 59AVi flashes "link check" on the display, and my 56TXi receiver does the same, but the receiver switches to my Cable box input, and the link does not reconnect.

Does anyone have any idea what this could be?

Originally posted by Bluesea
I noticed this in scene two of AOTC, in Palpatine's red room. This was before Avia calibration, after which the problem went away.

I am having numerous problems with compression artifacts that I mentioned earlier, but am doing some more comparisons before posting.
I have already calibrated with Avia.

bkushner,

Do you see the problem on the red 'A' on the AVIA main menu, or other colorful menus?

If you are having a true problem I would get it fixed or replaced under warranty.

Originally posted by Vagabond
even though the new decoder is apparently a bit better the CUE can still rear it's ugly head. So although it's better in some situations it can still manifest itself.

Check out the info on Secrets here (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all#Pioneer%20EliteDV%20-%2059AVi)

Vagabond, can you be more specific? The link you provided was the entire Shootout database which takes a long time to load. If you were referring to the 59AVi review in the shootout, it says the traditional CUE problems are solved. As for the remaining CUE and Chroma ICP, that can not be what we are seeing in these cases. I suspect it is an old production problem or a display problem in these few isolated cases.

I am looking at a 59AVi with a manufacture date of 4/04. In reviewing this thread - I assume it does not have the latest firmware.

1) Should I be concerned?

2) How would I get it updated?

Originally posted by AVfile
If you were referring to the 59AVi review in the shootout, it says the traditional CUE problems are solved. As for the remaining CUE and Chroma ICP, that can not be what we are seeing in these cases. I suspect it is an old production problem or a display problem in these few isolated cases.

Sorry for that, I thought it was only the actual review that was linked. Anyway here's a quote:

"The 59AVi does suffer from the same 3-2 alternating flag CUE problem found in the Denon DVD-2900/2200. This is readily apparent in Monsters, Inc. and results in a “flickering” in solid bands of color with some material."

Now to me this means that there are the odd situation where CUE can be seen.

I've attached a screenshot as well that indicates that not all is super well.

Please note this is not to slander the 59AVi in any way. It's a cracking machine but it's not the final DVD player. They all have their quirks, it's just a matter of if you can live with them or not.

Cheers

The ALT 3:2 flag issue is easily fixed... if you press DISLPAY twice and see that the '#' sign is flashing, just go into the video options and force Pure Cinema Mode to be ON.

Originally posted by UMD_Terp
The ALT 3:2 flag issue is easily fixed... if you press DISLPAY twice and see that the '#' sign is flashing, just go into the video options and force Pure Cinema Mode to be ON.


Well, as I've understood the Pure Cinema mode should really be avoided. The Auto2 mode seems to be the preferred mode. Here's another quote from the review regarding Pure Cinema mode:

// “Pure Cinema On” is a forced Film mode and shouldn’t be used at all. This mode failed a good majority of our tests and will result in the most artifacts if used for normal viewing.//

So I guess as always, you win some, you lose some...

Cheers

"Explain how the first generation blu-ray player will make your existing collection of dvd's look better? Certainly blu-ray discs will look great, but I don't think regular dvd's will look much better (probably worse since the machines will be built to exploit the capabilities of blu-ray, not regular dvd) on a dv-59avi or even a 3910."


1) Until you see and HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player in action you can't say they they are not going to do a good job of playing a SD DVD's.

2) I believe that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will play SD DVD's just fine, on par with most players available today. Today's SD DVD players, in my opinion,
have hit the ceiling, that is why there isn't much difference between a $200. player and one costing $3,500.

3) At least in the case of HD-DVD, the first player by Toshiba will cost $999.
The Denon 5910 is $3,500. I believe the Toshiba will be a superior piece of equipment over the 5910 or all existing 480P and "gimmicky" upscaling players.

4) The Toshiba is HD-DVD, folks who have purchased D-VHS players and tapes have already given testimony of how they blow SD DVD's away, but they are tapes, so the format was kind of still born.

If a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD will make DVD's look the same as they are now, but have the ability to record and also offer true HD PQ at cheaper price than these souped of SD players, I think that's a big advantage over what we have now.

Originally posted by Vagabond
Well, as I've understood the Pure Cinema mode should really be avoided. The Auto2 mode seems to be the preferred mode. Here's another quote from the review regarding Pure Cinema mode:

// “Pure Cinema On” is a forced Film mode and shouldn’t be used at all. This mode failed a good majority of our tests and will result in the most artifacts if used for normal viewing.//

So I guess as always, you win some, you lose some...

Cheers

That's right... you shouldn't use it for movies that have the flags set correctly, but in the case in which you have a disc that is mastered as such, temporarily switching to force film mode is an easy fix... For everything else, AUTO2 is fine.

Originally posted by Auditor55
"Explain how the first generation blu-ray player will make your existing collection of dvd's look better? Certainly blu-ray discs will look great, but I don't think regular dvd's will look much better (probably worse since the machines will be built to exploit the capabilities of blu-ray, not regular dvd) on a dv-59avi or even a 3910."


1) Until you see and HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player in action you can't say they they are not going to do a good job of playing a SD DVD's.

2) I believe that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will play SD DVD's just fine, on par with most players available today. Today's SD DVD players, in my opinion,
have hit the ceiling, that is why there isn't much difference between a $200. player and one costing $3,500.

3) At least in the case of HD-DVD, the first player by Toshiba will cost $999.
The Denon 5910 is $3,500. I believe the Toshiba will be a superior piece of equipment over the 5910 or all existing 480P and "gimmicky" upscaling players.

4) The Toshiba is HD-DVD, folks who have purchased D-VHS players and tapes have already given testimony of how they blow SD DVD's away, but they are tapes, so the format was kind of still born.

If a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD will make DVD's look the same as they are now, but have the ability to record and also offer true HD PQ at cheaper price than these souped of SD players, I think that's a big advantage over what we have now.

I remember getting a Toshiba SD-3006 in 1997 and it was certainly
not a great cd player by any means. In fact it was a rather dismal
redbook cd player. It was actually quite a while until a dvd player
came out that had decent audio capabilities.

My point is that if you are really in the market for a player that has
the abilities of the 3910 or the 59-avi (ie. universal player) I
don't suspect that the very first hd-dvd or blu-ray players will offer
performance of these machines today for existing formats. Certainly
the quality of hd-dvd will be better than the best superbit dvd
transfers currently available. However,look how far dvd playback
quality has evolved in both players and dvd transfers from 1997.

Now a 59avi with hd-dvd and/or blu-ray playback... that would be
something special. :)

Last week I purchased a Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi and I have to say I am as happy as can be. My decision was between the Denon 3910, Denon 2910 and the Pioneer DV-59AVi. This is why I picked the Pioneer:

1) I have many DVD players in my home, and the last DVD player hooked up to my main system (the Denon 3800) was problematic to say the least. The problems weren't earthshattering, but they were problems nonetheless. These problems included minor stuttering and stopping on video playback. Dropouts on certain DVD-Audio discs (of which I own a lot), which were also seen at the exact same points on the same discs on my friends Denon 3800. Lastly, the drawer started to close by itself over the past few weeks - so that was the last straw. It was out of warranty, but only 1 3/4 years old.

2) I read as many web forums as I could, this one being the premier web forum. My reading told me that the Pioneer was probably less problematic than either Denon. After having a problematic $1200 player from Denon (3800), I was considering Denon but would rather purchase a brand that would have better quality control.

3) I found that the Denon 3910 has it's issues depending on build date, so I wanted to stay away for the price ($1300).

4) I also found the Denon 2910 could have issues also, so I was gun shy after my previous Denon experiences.

5) I could get the Pioneer for a good price (I think - $1150), with a fairly new build date and the latest firmware.

6) I wanted a new HDMI capable DVD player to go along with my new HDMI capable HDTV.

7) A review I came across in a few month old Stereophile AV Guide to Home Theater magazine gave the Pioneer a stellar review, saying it bested the Denon 5900 in almost all respects.

I picked the Pioneer, and after 1 week of watching movies via HDMI at 1080i (setting everything up as indicated in this owners thread), and listening to DVD-Audio discs (which sound great on this player) I am a happy camper.

I also checked out the Pioneer's ability to do SACD, and it was darn good.. but I have 3 other SACD players in my home, one being the Sony XA777ES, so I really have no use for SACD via the Pioneer.

Originally posted by Auditor55
2) I believe that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will play SD DVD's just fine, on par with most players available today.

You already stated that current players aren't good enough for you, including two world-class machines (3910 and 59AVi), so there goes that argument ;)

Given that you cannot tolerate the 3910, I don't think you will be happy with a $200 player, even in the short-term.

Today's SD DVD players, in my opinion,
have hit the ceiling, that is why there isn't much difference between a $200. player and one costing $3,500.

That is simply a rediculous statement. There was a huge difference in my $2000 Sony 9000ES compared to every other player I've tried between $100 and $5000, and it's quite dated now. I bought that years ago and never regretted it. In fact I got to enjoy great video and great SACD for 4 years while the "wait for it" people were waiting for the perfect player to come along for $200. Now they are still waiting apparently.

If they really have hit the ceiling then wouldn't now be the optimal time to buy a good one?

3) At least in the case of HD-DVD, the first player by Toshiba will cost $999.
The Denon 5910 is $3,500. I believe the Toshiba will be a superior piece of equipment over the 5910 or all existing 480P and "gimmicky" upscaling players.

What?! It took almost 8 years of evolving to get DVD video and audio technology to the 5910 level. The fact that one can make SD look great on a 90" screen is amazing to me. What makes you think the 1st generation HD players won't have serious issues? It's going to be almost like starting all over again (new compression formats, bugs, buggy titles, format wars, etc). They probably won't even be universal players to begin with. Just how much longer are you willing to wait?

4) The Toshiba is HD-DVD, folks who have purchased D-VHS players and tapes have already given testimony of how they blow SD DVD's away, but they are tapes, so the format was kind of still born.

We're sure it will be great but let's not talk about software that doesn't exist yet. There are plenty of players out there with great picture and sound right now, capable of playing every disc released to date. I've got my HDTV on cable which is nice, but I'd rather watch a DVD of something I actually WANT to see. It doesn't perform so bad in comparison either, sometimes better!

If a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD will make DVD's look the same as they are now, but have the ability to record and also offer true HD PQ at cheaper price than these souped of SD players, I think that's a big advantage over what we have now.

I think an inexpensive HD player would make a nice complement, eventually, to a system already containing a world-class universal player bought today. You could buy an economical digital "transport only" unit knowing you've already got great audio and SD covered. Finding one that does everything to your satisfaction will probably be difficult, especially for the first couple years, not to mention expensive. But for now you can benefit from years of audio and video refinement, product maturity and a vast library.

I know you're thinking HD players will inherit this and just pick up where DVD left off. Hopefully it will get off to a better start than DVD did. But remember when DVD first came out people were amazed by the picture but said LD and CD players had better sound (some still do) - even though they could easily share the same audio technology!

I double dare you to buy the first cheapie Toshiba HD-DVD player that comes out. I bet you will be the first to say "This sucks, my Apex was better" or "I'm waiting for _______". There will always be hi-end machines and low-end machines. Pay now and enjoy, or pay later.

Originally posted by calpaugh
I remember getting a Toshiba SD-3006 in 1997 and it was certainly
not a great cd player by any means. In fact it was a rather dismal
redbook cd player. It was actually quite a while until a dvd player
came out that had decent audio capabilities.

Not to mention: No component out, no DTS out (LD and CD did!), would not pass BTB, would not play The Matrix, etc.


My point is that if you are really in the market for a player that has
the abilities of the 3910 or the 59-avi (ie. universal player) I
don't suspect that the very first hd-dvd or blu-ray players will offer
performance of these machines today for existing formats. Certainly
the quality of hd-dvd will be better than the best superbit dvd
transfers currently available. However,look how far dvd playback
quality has evolved in both players and dvd transfers from 1997.

Yes, and I just took too long trying to say the same thing :o


Now a 59avi with hd-dvd and/or blu-ray playback... that would be
something special.

And I can gaurantee you it would NOT be any cheaper!

"You already stated that current players aren't good enough for you, including two world-class machines (3910 and 59AVi), so there goes that argument

Given that you cannot tolerate the 3910, I don't think you will be happy with a $200 player, even in the short-term."

I never said that the 3910 is not good enough for me, it just have some issues, green push through DVI, can't pass btb on build dates beyond 08/04.

Its seem I can get a 59avi for the same price I paid for the 3910. I'm willing to try the 59avi, but I'm concerned about CUE problems and the inability to pass btb through HDMI to DVI adapter cable. Anyone care to discuss those issues.

BTW, I checked out a 59avi connected to Pioneer Elite 50" Plasma via HDMI and I didn't see any green push, but again, the overall picture didn't strike as having a better picture than the 3910.

I'm really trying to find out which player has fewer issues.

Originally posted by Auditor55
Its seem I can get a 59avi for the same price I paid for the 3910. I'm willing to try the 59avi, but I'm concerned about CUE problems and the inability to pass btb through HDMI to DVI adapter cable. Anyone care to discuss those issues.


I can help you with at least one of them.

I have a DVI display and have used a HDMI to DVI cable and now am using a DVI cable with HDMI->DVI adaptor; in both cases; not a problem. It is working fine. No problems with BTB either (I had to increase the brightness setting on the player by 1 step; but this is more due to the limitation of my display).

Regarding CUE, never noticed it....not yet anyway....

Originally posted by Auditor55
I'm really trying to find out which player has fewer issues. [/B]

After 6 months of long research and trying everything out there, I selected Pioneer (see my previous posts and a link to the Australian forum for my saga with various other players).

I really think Pioneer is the most reliable machine out there, with fewer issues than most....

Go with it and enjoy......you won't regret it....

Ritesh

Originally posted by Auditor55
I'm willing to try the 59avi, but I'm concerned about CUE problems and the inability to pass btb through HDMI to DVI adapter cable. Anyone care to discuss those issues.



I am also using a HDMI-DVI adapter and have no problems at all with my 59avi passing BTB.

In MY personal A/B comparison between the 59avi and Denon 3910 it was pretty clear which unit had the better overall picture quality......and you know which unit I own. ;)

Same here. I had the 2910 for 3 weeks and now own a 59avi ;)

Could someone provide me a link to the "Secrets" review of the DV59AVi, which I own. By the Way, Shane Buettner didn't seem to have very much good to say about this player in the latest Perfect Vision "shootout." His comment was that there were cheaper players out there which would equal, if not exceed, the DV59AVi. He also reviewed this player fully in a previous edition but didn't exactly sing praises at that time either. My only comment would be that it seems that the more money one pays for a player, the more problems it seems to have and the more frustrating it is to operate.

I would take Shanes review with a grain of salt.
To think that the Bravo D2 is superior to the 59avi is ridiculous!
Number 1, you have to realize that there were so many problems with the D2 you could never know if it was going to play the dvd you put in it.
In fact , I believe it had so many problems you cant even buy it from V-inc. anymore!
The 59avi is also superior to the Denon 3910 but the old Denon 9000 with the newest changes blows away the 59avi and the 9000 uses component output only!
Someday everyone will realize that the Dvi/Hdmi thing is just a way to pave the introduction for a connection for the new HD and Bluray formats.It is not really superior to component for 480p.
The best way to watch dvd is still 480P from the player scaled by the set or a scaler to 1080i.
Anything scaled by a upconverting player will introduce artifacts and that is the truth!

Originally posted by steviec

Someday everyone will realize that the Dvi/Hdmi thing is just a way to pave the introduction for a connection for the new HD and Bluray formats.It is not really superior to component for 480p.
The best way to watch dvd is still 480P from the player scaled by the set or a scaler to 1080i.
Anything scaled by a upconverting player will introduce artifacts and that is the truth!

Really?

I guess I learned something new today, because I have never seen my 59avi create any more upscaling artifacts than what my DWIN TV3 would do scaling the DVD output to 720p. I prefer the 59avi to take care of the scaling.

I also disagree with DVI/HDMI not being better than component. No, it isn't a "night and day" difference, but the digital connection is a bit cleaner when using it with a digital display (such as my DLP projector).

Anything scaled by a upconverting player will introduce artifacts and that is the truth!
So the DVDO scaler in the 5910 will produce artifacts? Also, why would you feed 1080i to a 720p DLP? If you are talking about certain CRTs, you need to be more precise.

larry

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anything scaled by a upconverting player will introduce artifacts and that is the truth!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I upconvert all of my DVDs to 1080i via DVI to my Mits WS-55413 with the DV-59AVi and I have not seen any artifacts period. Watching DVDs like Deadwood and Carnivale at 1080i looks better than watching it at 1080i on HBO-HD on my Comcast cable box.

59avi at 480p over HDMI to IScan HD upconverting at 1400X788. Zero artifacts. In fact, it's cleaner then the scaling performed internally by my D-ILA HX1U.

As previously discussed, I've been involved in a recalibration pass using my newly acquired set of Avia Pro calibration discs. The hardware setup is a Pioneer Elite 59avi (June 2004 build -- 506 firmware) and an HDDirecTivo satellite box (HR10-250) both running HDMI to DVI into a Dtronics 4x1 DVI switcher and then to the DVI input of a Fujitsu P50 (30 series) plasma.

Among other things I discovered that I got a much better picture if I lowered white levels (Contrast) several steps and compensated by raising Black Levels (Brightness) several steps beyond what I had previously done with regular Avia so as to keep Peak Whites from thresholding above Reference White (digital 235) -- i.e., to be able to distinguish steps from digital 236 through digital 254 -- while still preserving proper blacks. This has to be done carefully so as not to gray out Reference White or lose too much contrast ratio from blacks to whites. However the Fujitsu has a separate Luminance control which sets the overall light output produced for Reference White. By raising this judiciously I can get a proper, perceived white, great contrast ratio and STILL preserve distinguish-ability of the full range of steps above Reference White.

I also took this opportunity to lower the color temperature of the plasma closer to 6500K. Since this reduces the "false brightness" the eye perceives from a more blue color temperature, this was also a factor in having to raise luminance to get a good, non-grayed out white.

All I can say is WOW. Despite repeated assurances from various sources that properly mastered DVD and HD material will have little actual content in the Peak White range, the results I have seen make it obvious to me that there's a lot of Peak White content out there. Highlights, lamps, direct sun, sun glints, fireworks, fires, sun lit clouds, etc., etc. all look better. By the way, I've tried these tests at both my old and new color temperature settings, so this really is a Peak White effect and not due to the color temperature change.

Note that if my display didn't have that adjustable Luminance level, I would have been forced to use a brighter "picture mode" else lowering Contrast like this would have grayed out my whites too much. Switching to a brighter picture mode is bad news on many displays so what I did here may not work well on your display.

The extra test charts in Avia Pro make it much easier to see the effects of these blacks/whites changes. You can readily see just how much thresholding is happening near Reference White and all the way up to the top of the digital scale and can also see how blacks are interpreted (i.e., dithered) digital level by digital level in the vicinity of Reference Black (digital 16).

For folks who only have regular Avia, try this: The usual instruction for setting whites on a digital display in regular Avia is to lower Contrast until you can see both moving white bars against the white background, then raise it until the right hand bar vanishes into the white background, then lower it again slowly until the right hand bar reappears. Since the background is Reference White, the right hand bar, when Contrast is set properly, should be clearly visible but roughly about half as distinct as the left hand white bar. If your digital display has a white limiter circuit you may not be able to make the right hand bar vanish, in which case you need to handle this differently as has been discussed elsewhere. Essentially you are finding the point where data just below Reference White thresholds into Reference White -- which will maximize the Contrast ratio of the display without losing detail below Reference White. Unless something screwy is going on in your player/display this will also result in most Peak Whites thresholding as well because you are targeting maximal contrast ratio over distinguishability of Peak Whites. [As usual, you will need to iterate with adjusting black levels (Brightness control) to find this whites setting that also allows proper blacks setting. You are not done until both settings work.]

So now lower Contrast by a few more notches. How many notches depends upon the step size for Contrast on your display -- on the Fujitsu the proper setting was 4 notches lower. You will likely now also need to raise Brightness to reset blacks properly. If you are lucky, this means you will have reduced Reference White sufficiently below the point where thresholding occurs so that more, or even ALL Peak Whites will now be distinguishable. You are trading off contrast ratio for distinguish-ability of Peak Whites. There's no test chart in regular Avia to verify this, but you may be able to detect it with the gray ramps in DVE and it will be easy to see with the deep crossing ramps in Avia Pro. However, even if you don't have those tests, just try this new pair of Contrast/Brightness settings and watch some movies -- concentrating on the impact of bright highlight areas of the image.

Again, if lowering contrast like this grays out your whites, and you have no means to compensate on your display, then you'll probably have to forgo Peak Whites to get a sufficiently pleasing -- non-gray -- white cast for Reference White. When judging this, be sure your eyes are used to your normal viewing conditions -- which should be dim lighting but not blacked out.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operating at the proper color temperature is also a big win. Colors are much more natural. I had avoided it before due to the difficulty of figuring out the interaction of the controls on the Fujitsu -- and in particular the key requirement to raise Luminance to reduce the impression that colors were muddied at the lower color temperature (due to graying out of whites otherwise).

I should reiterate that all 59avi controls were in their default settings for HDMI Direct mode (except for Pure Cinema at Auto2). The HDDirecTivo box offers no controls.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the course of all this I also re-investigated the "best" resolution to send to the plasma. The DVI input on the plasma won't accept 480i, so my choices were 480p, 720p, or 1080i. The "native" resolution of the plasma is closest to 720p. The Fujitsu plasma is widely regarded as having an exceptional scaler, but the last time I tried this I decided I most liked the picture I got sending 1080i to the plasma from both the 59avi and the HR10-250.

This time my results were different.

I'm now firmly in the camp of sending HDMI 480p from the 59avi to my Fujitsu plasma. The results are subtle but real. The most striking difference is in the reduction in scaling related moire in the static and moving zone plate charts on Avia Pro. But I would have to say the subjective perception of image improvement goes beyond anything I can point to in the test charts.

As I stated in a previous post, sending 480p (or 480i) out the HDMI output means you really should leave the 59avi in HDMI 16:9 Wide mode so that 4:3 content is sent out without pillarboxing. The Fujitsu plasma offers the ability to pillarbox 4:3 content coming in on the DVI input at 480p (but not at 720p or 1080i). Letting the Fujitsu do the pillarboxing at 480p produces horizontal resolution up to the limits that Avia Pro can measure, whereas letting the 59avi do it clearly reduces the available horizontal resolution. This means you lose the "automatic" pillarboxing offered by HDMI 16:9 Compressed mode when 4:3 content is interspersed with 16:9 content -- i.e., turning pillarboxing on and off in the Fujitsu require a remote control operation -- but the image quality for 4:3 content is clearly better letting the Fujitsu do the work when the data is coming in at 480p. [NOTE: HDMI 16:9 Compressed mode works just fine if you are using 720p or 1080i output resolution.]

However, much to my surprise, this result did *NOT* carry over to the HR10-250. Having satisfied myself that 480p was the cat's pajamas for the 59avi/P50 combo, I assumed I would find that matching the broadcast resolution would yield the best result from the HDDirecTivo box -- i.e., 480p for standard def TV channels and 720p or 1080i for HDTV according to what was actually being broadcast on that channel. But no matter what I tried, I found that standard def channels looked much more noisy when I sent 480p to the plasma compared to sending 1080i, and even 720p HDTV broadcasts looked better when sent to the plasma at 1080i -- although the difference was much much smaller.

I can only assume there is some filtering going on in the HR10-250 that reduces whatever damage DirecTV is doing to their channels, and which works best when the HR10-250 is set to send out 1080i.

So I use 480p exclusively from the 59avi and 1080i exclusively from the HR10-250. As it turns out, the "best" calibration settings on the Fujitsu are identical for these two devices sharing the same DVI input -- which is certainly convenient. The proper overscan adjustments for the plasma ARE different, but fortunately the plasma remembers separate size and centering adjustments for the DVI input for each input resolution, so I can set up the ideal size and centering separately for the 59avi and HR10-250 even though they are sharing the same input.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

As I stated in my earlier post in this thread, the fact that I like the results from the scaler built into the Fujitsu P50 over what the Pioneer Elite 59avi offers is undoubtedly due to the very good scaler Fujitsu features in its plasma. Results on other displays will surely vary. The point is, you should find the time to experiment with HDMI 480p (or 480i if you have that option on your display) and see for yourself which really works better.

Also, I'm really quite taken with the Avia Pro tests. They are still about twice the price I think they should be, but they really are very very good.
--Bob

I can't agree with you more Bob.
I was not talking about scaling with a dvdo scaler.
I was stating that using anything other that 480p from the player will produce a picture with more artifacts.
480P thru hdmi/dvi is the way to go and let your set or a dvdo hd + do the scaling.Using 1080i or 720p from the player produces more visable artifacts.
You might also try 480p thru the component output, I think you might be surprised!

I am convinced that I get a better image on my 110" diagonal screen when I send my JVC HX-1 d-ila projector a 720p signal. It's subtle, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

James

I will confirm that sending 720p to my Mitsubishi DLP is better than sending it 480p... The differences are subtle, but they are there. Either way you do it, the signal is going to get scaled to the native resolution... it all comes down to which scaler does a better job.

UMD_Terp is on the right track here. There are some HDTV-ready displays that are just not all that good at scaling (or de-interlacing for that matter). For such displays, it should be the case that the closer you can get the input signal to the display's own "native" resolution the better off you'll be since the internal scaler in the display will have less work to do. Allowing a good up-scaling player to do this job would, in such case, produce a better image than sending 480p to the display and letting the display do the work.

Complicating this, however, is that not all displays will actually accept their "native" resolution. On top of that, most up-scaling players won't allow you to send out anything other than the "standard" resolutions. Finally, "native" resolution issues aside, HDTV-ready displays are often optimized in subtle ways to produce the best image when fed a 1080i signal since that's how they are most commonly evaluated in stores -- even when that IS NOT their "native" resolution!

As I stated in the "primer" thread, there's really no substitute here for doing the experiments yourself and seeing which combo you prefer with YOUR hardware. And as your eye gets more trained -- i.e., as you get more used to what your hardware does with different styles of program content and get more used to what a "calibrated" image looks like -- this is an experiment that's well worth doing OVER AGAIN.

I originally preferred an HDMI 1080i signal from my 59avi to my P50 plasma. I didn't reach that conclusion lightly, and I'd be perfectly happy watching my favorite movies at 1080i today. But after 6 months added experience, and some additional tools to refine my calibration, I now prefer an HDMI 480p signal. These are not day and night differences, but I really do believe I can see better results from letting my plasma do the scaling.

I fully expect that if I was using a display with lower quality scaling -- a Panasonic plasma just to toss out one popular option that has been widely compared to the Fujitsu (because they share the same glass in the 50" size) -- my preference would be to leave the scaling to the 59avi. The bottom line is that the 59avi's scaling is really very good. It's just that I think the Fujitsu's is a little better across a wide range of program content.
--Bob

I think most people who have a 720p native resolution display will find that sending it a 720p signal will give the best results. This has been my experience with several different upscaling players, including the 59avi.

When you have a display that does not have one of the "standard" resolutions (such as plasmas like Bob's) I think it becomes more likely that a 480p signal will give just as good or better results than one of the upscaled resolutions.

Originally posted by Rob Tomlin
I think most people who have a 720p native resolution display will find that sending it a 720p signal will give the best results. This has been my experience with several different upscaling players, including the 59avi.

When you have a display that does not have one of the "standard" resolutions (such as plasmas like Bob's) I think it becomes more likely that a 480p signal will give just as good or better results than one of the upscaled resolutions.

I think this is especially true of RPLCD displays since their native resolution is 768p rather than the 720p... it is cleaner to do a single conversion from 480p -> 768p rather than 480p -> 720p -> 768p ... the less adding/filtering or removing/filtering there is, the better... and for every scaling up or down, there must be filtering done afterwards.

If a display's native resolution is 768p, does it really do any "scaling" from a 720p input signal? I got the distinct impression from some magazine article somewhere, that those displays still only show 720p lines of info. I.e., they just don't show anything in the upper and lower bands of the extra 24 lines each. 'Course, that wouldn't be good for burn in though, but ... ??

kevin,
Without having done a survey, my guess would be that MOST of the 768 displays actually scale 720 data up to 768. However, there ARE known examples of 768 displays that present 720 data without scaling -- leaving a smallish black border around the image.
--Bob

I think the Sony RPLCDs scale up to 768p...

I thought I read in my DV59's manual that it said to set the pure cinema mode to Auto 1, unless there was some kind of picture interference, in which case it was suggested to use Auto 2. Also, how does one change the output thru HDMI to 480p? I thought on mine it automatically was set to 1080i if the HDMI cable was connected, which I have since disconnected since I couldn't see any major pic improvement. Thanx.

Originally posted by UMD_Terp
I think this is especially true of RPLCD displays since their native resolution is 768p rather than the 720p... it is cleaner to do a single conversion from 480p -> 768p rather than 480p -> 720p -> 768p ... the less adding/filtering or removing/filtering there is, the better... and for every scaling up or down, there must be filtering done afterwards.

Exactly!

We're all still waiting with bated breath for your in-depth review! I for one have no more fingernails to chew! :)

steve

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
kevin,
Without having done a survey, my guess would be that MOST of the 768 displays actually scale 720 data up to 768. However, there ARE known examples of 768 displays that present 720 data without scaling -- leaving a smallish black border around the image.
--Bob

Bob what resolution would you suggest on a Hitachi ALIS plasma (1024x1024). I have only had my player for a little while and would be testing it out further; but am curious what the poeple here suggest I feed my display.

Even if we make the assumption that the scaler in 59avi is better than the one in my Hitachi plasma; theoritically is it better to send 720p or 1080i, I wonder?

In any case, any other 59avi with an ALIS plasma, I'd be most interested on your experiences too?

Thanks,

Ritesh

Alright! I picked up my new 59AVi yesterday and it is beautiful. I am really impressed with everything from the smooth-action front drawer to sturdy gold-plated output jacks to the beefy 14-gauge power cord it comes with. The sexy gloss-black finish matches perfectly with my old Elite LD player. The remote is very nicely done - although not backlit, easy to use in the dark.

Picture Quality wise (sorry I'm a 480p analog dinosaur) I am 99% impressed. It is the most stunning detailed picture I've ever had from DVD. The only problem is a slight chroma delay as reported in the original Secrets review, but nowhere near as bad as my previous Denon or Linn players (the Sony 9000ES is still the king of channel timing but it cost me twice as much). Unfortunately most of the picture controls in the player are too coarse to perfectly dial-in chroma delay, chroma level, black level, tint (still have to use the TV's controls to fine tune). Test patterns aside, the end result on real program material is great - I've never seen so much detail in the 5th Element girl's face! And NO chroma bug (CUE)!!

Sound Quality wise (analog multi-channel) I am 99% impressed overall, and 200% impressed considering the price. It is a very "rich" sound and I think I prefer it to the "lean" Linn Unidisk SC ($5000) which I returned yesterday! In a nutshell - the Pioneer has more body and less bright. If the equivalent Denon sounds darker than this (as reported by others) that could be too much.

There are many settings so I'll have to report more later.

Cheers,

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Among other things I discovered that I got a much better picture if I lowered white levels (Contrast) several steps and compensated by raising Black Levels (Brightness) several steps beyond what I had previously done with regular Avia so as to keep Peak Whites from thresholding above Reference White (digital 235) -- i.e., to be able to distinguish steps from digital 236 through digital 254 -- while still preserving proper blacks.

Bob, does this mean that it's not a good thing to raise the player's white level above the factory default? I initially raised it one or two clicks, because it made the white box on the AVIA "grey steps" test pattern brighter without crushing the box below.

I found the default black level (with 0 IRE setup) almost perfect so I left it alone.

I have an ISF calibrated CRT.

Thanks,
Stefan

AVFile,
The general advice for the 59avi is to leave it in the factory default levels you get using HDMI Direct mode (except for 480i output) and do all level adjustments on the TV. We have lots of happy campers here who are doing just that. This means you would normally only consider tweaking a level on the 59avi if you discover a problem that you CAN'T seem to fix using the TV's controls.

Now you have an ISF calibrated display so you have a slightly different problem. Your display has been calibrated to match either your tech's signal generators or your previous DVD player depending upon how your tech did the work. In either case, your new 59avi might be slightly different than what your ISF guy used, and so a level change on the 59avi may better match what he used.

However, for a digital input (HDMI or DVI) you need to understand that if you tell the 59avi to modify the levels then you are either going to lose or compress data somewhere. There are only 254 discrete luminance steps in the data for example (0 and 255 being reserved values). If you raise white levels in the digital signal you either have to lose something off the top or you have to compress steps somewhere in the range from black to white because there is no 255th or 256th level.

On the other hand, tweaking the level on your TV may give you less than the best gray ramps that have been so carefully adjusted by your ISF tech.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's fine to experiment, and by all means trust your eye. But since you haven't had your 59avi very long, I would recommend you leave it at the factory HDMI Direct levels and get some experience watching movies without tweaking it. You may discover the default 59avi settings are actually a BETTER match for your ISF calibrated set than you had with your previous player. You may also want to contact your ISF tech and get his advice as to how he set up your digital input and whether tweaking the settings on the TV will be OK to do or whether the gray steps were too sensitive.

Ultimately you may want to have him come in and redo the calibration specifically for the 59avi.

========================================================

EDITED TO ADD: Ah, I see by your other post that you are using analog 480p connection -- presumably via component cables -- instead of a digital connection.

I'm less concerned about tweaking white level on the 59avi for an analog connection, although I still think you should try the factory defaults (as I recall that's "Professsional" mode) for a while first, and it's still probably wise to consult with your ISF tech.
--Bob

ritesh,
I don't have enough experience with ALIS panels to know their quirks. I'd suggest you ask this question over in the flat panel forum here, since I've seen lots of discussion of ALIS over there.
--Bob

ritesh,
Try both, but I recall reading somewhere that 1080i is better suited for 1024x1024 ALIS. They can basially drop some horizontal lines from top and bottom and scale vertical lines down 2:1 each interlaced frame.

larry

I bought a DV-59AVI over eBay for $800 two months old from a person who bought from an Auth. Dealer. The HDMi output was dead (no blue light, etc.) into an HDCP proj.I had used a Pan S97 HDMI w/out any problems. Because the orig. dealer was states away, a swap was not possible

I sent my DV-59AVi into a local authorized Pioneer service center,which incidentally was highly recommended by Pioneer USA which replaced the HDMI input board. I rec'd it back today. No HDMI. No blue light. I use a Gefen 2X1 DVI switcher which detects an output before the proj. Although it showed an output from my Zenith HDTV rec'r, it showed none from the DV-59AVi. (Yes, I switched inputs.)

My IF 7210 (previously tried using the DV-59AVi on IF 7200) is HDCP compliant. I tried powering the proj, then the DV-59AVI, and tried powering the DV-59AVI and then the proj. I held the HDMI plug in the Pioneer for 5 minutes. Nothing worked.

Pioneer USA confirmed no HDMI output. I asked to send it to Pioneer for service and was told that Pioneer does not repair the DV-59AVi and if I sent it to Pioneer for servive, Pioneer would send it to the nearest local authorized repair center.

Any suggestions? At this point I have orered another Pan S97. But I would like to get the DV-59AVI working rather than junking it.It would have no value with a dead HDNI output.

Robert,
Have you tried connecting directly to the projector (no Gefen switch)? "rbooster" had a similar problem that turned out to be due to using a DVI switch. He eventually found a workaround using an HDMI switch instead (and converting to DVI downstream of the switch). [NOTE: I've used both the Dtronics and Gefen DVI switches with my 59avi and have had no such problem.]

There have also been a couple reports of compatability problems between the HDMI of the 59avi and the DVI input of a BENQ projector. There's a thread on this forum that discusses this (subject something like 59avi compatability problems with DVI-D cables), and I don't believe there's been a resolution yet.

One theory is low voltage on the HDMI output, but that's just a guess.
--Bob

Bob-

There is no way in my config. that I can bypass the Gefen switcher. The proj cable is a 5 meter dvi/male to dvi/male. The Gefen provides the necessary male/female hookups. W/out the Gefen, I would be trying to hook the male DVI end of the HDMI/DVI cable to the male DVI end of the projector cable.

To switch switchers, which would involve buying an HDMI 2xi switcher and additional adaptors and/or cables, without any guarantee it would work, wouldn't be smart as it might be throwing money down the drain.

At this point I think the repair center rec'd a defective HDMI board, and did not have an HDCP compliant display w/DVI or HDMI in, and couldn't verify its operation. I am calling them tomorrow to verify this as they are closed today. If so, I'm sending it off to United Radio in Syracuse, NY which Pioneer recommended (as it did the first place), and alledgedly can verify correct operation

Just out of interest I priced switching over to an HDMI switcher the way I think it should be done:
InFocus M1-DA to HDMI Adapter $45
Gefen 2x1 HDMI Switcher $250
Monster HDMI Cable 6 meters $170 (Blue Jeans HDMI $55)
$350 or $465, just to get the DV-59AVi work over HDMI when I've has two other HDMI out players work w/out problem? I'm keeping my fingers crossed on a defective HDMI board.

Robert as Bob mentioned I had a problem running the HDMI to DVI switcher, then DVI out to HDMI in on my Yamaha LPX 510 projector. If possible, I would relocate the player (for the test only) and use the HDMI to DVI cable direct to the projector...leaving the switcher out of the link. My money is on the player and projector syncing up....that way you know that it's not the board. Then you can weight the options...in my case, I added a HDMI switcher to the series. I send both the Momitsu and Sat receiver DVI out to a DVI switcher...then send the DVI cable from the switcher to the HDMI switcher (using an adpater). So the HDMI switcher has the Pioneer on #1 input and the signals coming from the DVI switcher into #2 input on the HDMI switcher. The signal from the HDMI switcher goes to the projector. At the time, there wasn't a "4 input" HDMI switcher or I would have went that route and left the DVI switcher out of the loop altogether. I hope this helps

Ron

rboster-

You're absolutely right. I hooked up the DV-59AVi into the M1-DA to DVI adapter from the projector and blue light on. It is interesting to note that the annoying M1-DA input which InFocus persisits in using is, essentially an HDMI video input, as it can accept a 480i signal which DVI can not. So, I was going HDMI (DV-59AVi)>DVI>HDMI (IF 7210) without problem. The inference is that this kind of hookup can work.

Went back to the Gefen. No blue light. Since HDMI>DVI>HDMI works, there is some sort of problem in using the Gefen DVI switcher as you stated. The Pan S97 and Sony 975 worked without problem through the Gefen. The problem is incompatibility using the Pioneer in such a set up.

I am first going to contact Gefen and see if they aware of the problem and any fixes. If not, I'm going to have to decide if it's worth nearly $400 in switcher, adapter and cable to keep the Pioneer.

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Finally, "native" resolution issues aside, HDTV-ready displays are often optimized in subtle ways

for 1080i etc., etc.
Hello Bob,
Can you please elaborate on this "optimized in subtle ways." I have seen you mention this now more than once and I was wondering if you knew exactly what is it that they do?

Also, in regards to having ANYTHING other than the Pio do the scaling….have you heard or do you have any comments about this puppy which has the Realta chip…
http://www.algolith.com/index.php?id=137&L=0

Does the 59avi have picture adjustment memory settings like the 3910, the 3910 has 5 different memory setting? That is the one thing I really love about the 3910, I wouldn't want to give that up going to the 59avi.

Originally posted by dvdguru
Same here. I had the 2910 for 3 weeks and now own a 59avi ;)

Shane Buetner of the Perfect Vision rated the 2910 higher than the 59avi:o

Yep and same Hirez playpack and red book score...whatever. I have come to the conclusion that I only take reviews with a grain of salt. Also no AB was done directly since the 59avi was reviewed several months prior.

I spoke w/Gefen tech support. I was told that their old 2x1 DVI switchers were NOT HDCP compliant, but only HDCP pass through.

Gefen has just made its 2x1 DVI switcher fully HDCP compliant. Its 2x1 HDMI switcher has always been HDMI compliant.

They also said that, in general, they have found Pioneer DVD players to be quite finicky.

They would not take my 2x1 switcher back to make it HDCP compliant (18 mos. old), saying "It is a product we no longer support." Nor would they give me any price break on either switcher because of the problems I am having.

The Owner's Manual which came me my Gefen says "Supports HDCP compliant devices" and "Supports DDWG standard for DVI compliant monitors." The tech did apologize for the incorrect information in the Manual. BFD

He was surprised to hear that the Pan S97 and Sony 975 HDMI out players worked with my Gefen switcher as he said that the HDCP standards have been tightened.

I would never buy a Gefen product again in my life. And I am not about to shell out $400 in order to use the DV-59AVi. It's going on Videogon cheap, even though about a year a half of Pioneer's warranty remains on it.

I don't care who rated what about the Denon 2910. My eyes tell me the Pioneer spanks it :) My biggest problems with the 2910 were green push and the loud noise the player made when playing dvds. Now I've got a great picture and a quiet player so I don't miss the denon at half the 59avi price ONE BIT...

Originally posted by Auditor55
Does the 59avi have picture adjustment memory settings like the 3910, the 3910 has 5 different memory setting? That is the one thing I really love about the 3910, I wouldn't want to give that up going to the 59avi.

You have three different memory settings I believe... plus a few preset settings. The three memory settings are fully user configurable, while the presets are hard set and unchangeable.

Here's a good one. On Gefen's web page for its 2x1 DVI switcher, it states "Fully HDCP Compliant"...and further on "HDCP Pass Through Only."

Robert:

Here would be my suggestion.....sell the Gefen DVI switcher noting that it will not work with Pioneer players....I do bet it will work with all DVI/HDCP signals. Secondly, look for a used HDMI switcher. The net result should be much less than $400.

Ron

Ron-

I figured if I'm going to do it, do it right.So I got an M1-DA/HDMI adaptor for the InFocus 7210 ($45), a 15 ft. BlueJeans HDMI to HDMI cable ($55), and a Gefen 2x1 HDMI switcher ($200), for a grand total of $300. The rationalization is that things are moving from DVI to HDMI. If this doesn't work, I'm going to cry.

Bob

Has anybody noticed that the component video outputs are cropped compared to the hdmi output? Is this expected? Strangely the hdmi output is left shifted by about 30 or 40 pixels leaving a 2" black bar on the right
hand side of my 106" screen, but it contains *way* more information than the component output. What's up with this? For fun I compared my dv-45a component output and the cropping is identical to the component output cropping on the dv-59avi. I was using the thx setup frames from Fight
Club. I cannot find any combination of video setup on either the dv-45a or the dv-59avi and picture mode on my projector (normal, through, 16:9 squeeze, etc) that results in all of the picture being displayed as it is when using the hdmi output (720P). Has anybody seen something like this?

Originally posted by UMD_Terp
I think this is especially true of RPLCD displays since their native resolution is 768p rather than the 720p... it is cleaner to do a single conversion from 480p -> 768p rather than 480p -> 720p -> 768p ... the less adding/filtering or removing/filtering there is, the better... and for every scaling up or down, there must be filtering done afterwards.

Just got my new 59-avi hooked up to my sony kdf-50we655. Since it has to convert to the 768p, I was expecting the 480p over hdmi to be best for me. However, that looks much fuzzier or softer (not sure of the correct terminology here) to me than either the 720p or 180i output. Even on the Home Setting display, once I change froma say 720 to 480 I can notice what seems to me a significant degradation of sharpness in the text. I am rather surprised by this, because I think your point about reducing the amount of filtering, etc. makes a great deal of sense.
Still playing around with the settings, so it may end up that I just haven't found the key to getting better 480p output. At this point the 720 and 1080 are very close to looking the same.

Originally posted by Ahab
Just got my new 59-avi hooked up to my sony kdf-50we655. Since it has to convert to the 768p, I was expecting the 480p over hdmi to be best for me. However, that looks much fuzzier or softer (not sure of the correct terminology here) to me than either the 720p or 180i output. Even on the Home Setting display, once I change froma say 720 to 480 I can notice what seems to me a significant degradation of sharpness in the text. I am rather surprised by this, because I think your point about reducing the amount of filtering, etc. makes a great deal of sense.
Still playing around with the settings, so it may end up that I just haven't found the key to getting better 480p output. At this point the 720 and 1080 are very close to looking the same.

have you tried the component input on the set to see how that looks as well? That very well may look the best for you in the end given all this.

Originally posted by UMD_Terp
have you tried the component input on the set to see how that looks as well? That very well may look the best for you in the end given all this.

Thanks for the suggestion. Haven't tried that yet. Will give it a shot tonight after work. Given that the sony converts the signal to analog even on the hdmi connection, it may very well be that component will work out better.

ahab,
The filtering inherent in scaling is by no means the only filtering in the signal path, and is often the least of your worries as far as filtering is concerned. Many HDTV-ready TVs are guilty of using excessive filtering on standard-def TV signals to make crappy input signals look more watchable (at least in the short term). This is, of course, death to any high quality signals coming in at that resolution. Some TVs have options for turning much of this stuff off -- "velocity modulation" is a typical culprit which should be turned off for example -- but it is often the case that not all this nonsense can be turned off by user controls or even by service controls. In any event, be sure to double check the user settings that are being applied to your 480p digital input signal and TURN OFF as many as possible of the "features" that are there. Re-calibrate after selecting the proper "picture mode" and turning off all these "features". Once you have re-calibrated you can experiment with turning the features back on, but the odds are you will be happiest if you leave them off for DVD watching.

Now usually you would not expect to see this nonsense on a digital input. But it may be the case with your set that a 480p digital input is processed this way even though the 720p or 1080i resolutions are not. One likely culprit here is that your set is converting a 480p digital input signal to ANALOG and then dropping it into the same signal path it would use for normal analog video input -- including excessive "enhancement features". In such case, there may be no way for you to get as clean a signal path at 480p as you can get at 720p or 1080i.
--Bob

calpaugh,
Are you sure that extra cropping of component signals is not at least partially caused by what your projector does differently with component signals?

The 720 horizontal resolution coming off the DVD is about 9 pixels beyond what's really supposed to be legal for an NTSC signal. So at 480i or 480p resolution, the 59avi should crop about 4 to 5 pixels off either side. But that's all you should lose. Of course you need to adjust the centering and size controls on your display to eliminate any overscan.
--Bob

Bob-

Once I get everything I need to get my DV-59AVi working (assuming I can get it working), I am going to compare 720p out from the Pioneer into the IF 7210 with 1 to 1 pixel mapping with 480i out from the Pioneer, letting the FLI2310 in the IF7210 do the deinterlacing and scaling. Any predictions?

My apologies, but what are the settings on the DV-59AVi I have to change for 480i? The IF7210 uses Studio (not PC) RGB. Thanks.

Bob

Bob,
Thanks for the info.
I am still working on the calibration part with DVE. On the Sony I have the picture mode set to Pro, which is I think supposed to be the least 'intrusive' of the 3 modes: vivid, standard and pro. Have also turned off noise reduction, mild mode, and other such enhancements
Actually, the PQ on both the 720 and 180 is very good. I hope I didn't come across as compaining about the 59avi. Mainly I was surprised that the PQ was so much worse with the 480 in comparison to the other resolutions.
I'm not sure what the Sony does with the various signals coming in from the hdmi connection. I was under the impression that it converted all of them to analog, but, as you suggested, there could very well be other differences in how it handles the different signals.
By the way thanks for all the other info you and others have provided in this thread. It's been very helpful to a newbie like me.

Penton-Man,
I don't think I can give you any specific examples of "subtle optimizations" for 1080i, but it comes down to compromises that are made during design. At every stage of the game, the engineers will have to make choices that either raise the cost or bias the image quality towards one resolution or another. As you can imagine, the choice is usually made to bias the design for the best image quality during sales evaluations -- without raising the cost. Since HDTV-ready TVs are most commonly evaluated in stores by looking at 1080i signals, that's where all the energy goes. This is true even for EDTV sets that are really only 480p sets.

Filters are a big factor here. Filter designs don't work equally well at all signal bandwidths. Of course the worst culprit here is excessive filtering that's intentionally applied by some sets to standard resolution input signals to make crappy input signals look better at the expense of screwing up high quality input signals. But even for high res signals, the engineers have to make choices that bias quality for one signal vs. another.

Scaling algorithms, and the way the scaler is paired with pixels of a certain shape come into play as well. It is often the case these days that engineers don't have a free hand in display element selection or selection of electronic components in the video signal path. They are forced to use less than optimal components due to pre-existing purchasing arrangements and prior model designs. Video processing circuits, which are essentially specialized computers, have a longer product life cycle than the TVs they are used in. Which means your scaler may not be as good a match for your panel as it could be if you had a free hand and extra design time. Thus, again, you compromise to make the best match for one input signal at the expense of another.

Even issues such as luminance vs. color signal timing, gamma correction, and overscan may require compromises that, again, will tend to be optimized for a 1080i signal if you can't raise the cost enough to do it right.

Even in the QA process, emphasis will likely be given to final tweaks based on optimizing a 1080i input signal.

It's all about getting people to BUY the set. How it actually works once they get it home is not nearly as important. But the net of it all is that even if 1080 is not the set's native resolution, the design tweaks that were done to help sell the set may very well mean that the set works best at home when fed a 1080i signal -- at least from common HDTV sources.

The question, then, is whether such 1080i-based enhancements are actually important enough to overcome the other issues involved in using something other than the "native" resolution. That's not easy to predict for any given set. The point is, particularly with the lower cost displays, you should not ASSUME that 480p or 720p will be superior to 1080i for that display. You have to try it yourself and see what the engineers have hidden in there.
--Bob

Thanks again Bob.
You’re the best.

Originally posted by Penton-Man
Also, in regards to having ANYTHING other than the Pio do the scaling….have you heard or do you have any comments about this puppy which has the Realta chip…
http://www.algolith.com/index.php?id=137&L=0

I'm anxiously waiting for the Dragonfly (by Algolith) to use it with my 59avi at 480i over HDMI.

That scaler is the reason why I didn't go with the Denon 5910:
- It will use the Realta chip for de-interlacing AND scaling
- It will be able to process all my other sources (something the 5910 can't do).
-AND be able to use presets and custom resolutions for any non-standard resolution (another thing the 5910 can't do)...

And it will be around the same price, compared to the 5910. :D The Dragonfly is everything the 5910 should have been...

59avi + Dragonfly will be :D for me...

Robert,
Good luck with your new wiring scheme. By the way, if you purchase your Gefen switch from their own web site, they have, in the past, had a 15 day return policy for any issues. I returned my original Gefen switch due to intractable remote control code conflicts and had no problems getting a refund from them.

I don't have the ability to test 480i myself. Reports from others in this thread are pretty consistent however. When using HDMI at 480i you should expect to have to change two items from the factory defaults you get when you load the 59avi settings of "HDMI Direct" mode into a Memory. First, change HDMI Color Adjust from Standard to Enhanced. Second, change Black Setup from 0 to 7.5. Again, this is *ONLY* reported as necessary for HDMI 480i.

This combination is supposed to be necessary to preserve both Blacker than Black AND Peak White data properly at HDMI 480i.

There's been a report that for a digital input stuck in PC-style digital video mode (black sent as digital 0 instead of the normal digital 16), better results are achieved leaving Black Setup at 0. But since your projector uses normal, video-style encoding, you should expect to have to make the change to Black Setup described above.

As best we can figure out, HDMI Color Adjust appears to have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with colors, but does affect proper passing of Peak Whites at HDMI 480i.

Again the above is for DIGITAL 480i output -- HDMI 480i connected to a digital input that accepts 480i. We haven't had any good reports yet on folks experimenting with analog, component 480i.
--Bob

ahab,
As I recall, there's some massive FAQ information on tweaking the Sony TVs over on the appropriate display forum here -- getting into the service menu and such. Whether you feel like making such changes or not, reading that info may give you a better handle on what your TV does differently at 480 resolution.
--Bob

auditor55,
The video adjustment interface on the 59avi is a bit different to what you are used to from the Denon. The 59avi provides several sets of named, factory pre-set settings that you can select between. For example, folks using the 59avi via HDMI digital video connections in this thread most commonly recommend using the "HDMI Direct" settings.

If you pick one of these named sets of settings you can neither see nor change the actual settings that are being used. They are fixed, immutable, and mysterious.

However, the 59avi also offers three Memories for user adjustable settings. If you select a Memory, you can both see and change the current settings in the Memory.

The cool thing is that you can load a Memory with the pre-set values from one of the named sets of settings.

So what folks in this thread recommend is that you select a Memory to use, say Memory 1, and then go into the adjustment menu for that Memory and load it up with the set of factory settings represented by HDMI Direct mode. You do this by using the first menu item in the list of setting adjustments for Memory 1 -- specifying "Direct" as the source for the settings you want to load into Memory 1.

Having done that, Memory 1 will now be set to all the default HDMI Direct settings. But the difference is you can now see them AND change them if you feel like it. The important thing to remember is that any changes you make affect only Memory 1. Which means you can always reset Memory 1 back to the original HDMI Direct settings by Loading "Direct" back into Memory 1 again. HDMI Direct remains unchanged no matter what you do.

If you are experimenting with different settings, you can also use this Load function to copy the set of settings from one Memory into another.

Once you have your Memories set up the way you like, switching between them on the fly is an easy remote control operation that can be done while a movie is playing.
--Bob

Levesque,
I am very much looking forward to some practical reviews of the Algolith "Dragonfly" external scaler with the 59avi at HDMI 480i.

Any idea when the "Dragonfly" is supposed to be available?

-------------------------------------------------

At this point we have reports in this thread for two external scalers used with the 59avi at HDMI 480i. We have a first hand report with a Lumagen scaler and a second hand report with an HD Leeza scaler. Both reports indicate it works quite well.

As best I can tell, there is no update as to if or when the Iscan scaler will be modified to work with HDMI 480i from the 59avi.
--Bob

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Levesque,
I am very much looking forward to some practical reviews of the Algolith "Dragonfly" external scaler with the 59avi at HDMI 480i.

Any idea when the "Dragonfly" is supposed to be available?


Approximately in 3 months, around june this summer. I know someone who will try it... :D

Originally posted by LEVESQUE
Approximately in 3 months, around june this summer. I know someone who will try it... :D
LEVESQUE please check your PM.

I observed something interesting recently; regarding compatibility with my display (a Hitachi plasma) and the Pioneer 59avi.

I noticed that with the DVI input on my display,

if I increase either my brightness above a certain level on the TV; OR
decrease this "black-enhancement" settings on my TV OR
increase the corresponding "black-level" setting on the 59avi OR
change the IRE setting from 0 to 7.5 on the 59avi (and I thought IRE doesn't affect digital video outputs at all :) )

THEN I can see, if I am upclose to the display and there is totally black screen on the display, these stationary red-green lines/ants covering the whole screen.

Changing any of the above setting/s by just 1 step, totally eliminates the problem. Thus, I can turn these red-green ants ON or OFF (just by changing the brightness/black-level by 1 step) !

Infact, trying a combination of the above, I managed to make the red-green short-lines/ants appear ONLY on the bars at the side of the DVE PLUGE pattern !

I have tried 480p/1080i and it happens in both; only on my digital video input AND it is not the cable/adaptor as I have a fair few handy and have tried them all. But it is interesting, and highlights the importance of compatibility I guess.

Luckily for me, the black-level/brightness setting which makes this happen is not the correct one (i.e. it is brighter than what I'd calibrate the display to be) and thus I am not too bothered. But I am interested to know, what might be causing this.

I am very very curious about potential reason/s for above observations though..... for details on this issue, read this (http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=15793) post here on the Australian forum.

Any guesses, theories, etc. are most welcome,

regards,

Ritesh

ritesh,
Think of it as a rounding error in your digital display.

When you raise black levels in the display above the proper calibrated level, what you are telling the display to do is to make "black" something lighter than black -- a very, very dark gray. But the display only has a fixed set of steps it can use for each primary color of each pixel. So the electronics attempts to follow your instructions by turning on one or two primary colors (by one step only) in widely scattered pixels.

This "speckle pattern" of widely scattered, motionless pixels which are barely turned on in a nearly regular pattern (usually green or purple) in what should be large areas of "black", looks a lot like noise or interference but it is not, and will not go away by changing cables or any such effort. The TV is just trying to follow your improper instructions on black levels.

Use the appearance of this speckle pattern in a digital display as yet another upper limit for how high you can crank up black levels on your display and be sure that you leave black levels set low enough so that the speckle pattern does NOT appear in large areas of what should be "black".

Note that if you mis-adjust blacks so that the speckle pattern appears, the speckles themselves may be hard to see from a distance. But don't fool yourself into thinking it is OK to leave them there, as the "rounding error" will also appear in other brighter colors as well -- causing white spots in bright colors for example that are much more noticeable.
--Bob

FYI: According to Gefen, their current 2x1 DVI switcher is fully HDCP compliant (not a pass through which is why I couldn't get my DV-59AVi to work with my older Gefen 2x1 DVI switcher). Their 2x1 HDMI switcher has always been fully HDCP compliant; not a pass through.

For any who have been following my saga, this means that instead of buying the switcher, cables and adaptors I bought, all I had to do was get a new Gefen 2x1 DVI switcher.

Thanks Bob and radarblip regarding very concise and helpful explanations ....

Really appreciate it,

cheers,

Ritesh

Originally posted by UMD_Terp
have you tried the component input on the set to see how that looks as well? That very well may look the best for you in the end given all this.

I did give the component hook up a try. Actually looked very good set at 480i. On 480p the image looked too soft (fuzzy) as with the 480p on hdmi.
Am going to do a little more tweaking on hdmi before settling on component, though that is where I may end up with this. Though I think this is a great dvd player, it will be interesting if I finally end up on component set at 480i.

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
ahab,
As I recall, there's some massive FAQ information on tweaking the Sony TVs over on the appropriate display forum here -- getting into the service menu and such. Whether you feel like making such changes or not, reading that info may give you a better handle on what your TV does differently at 480 resolution.
--Bob

Yes, I have been perusing that thread. Afraid a lot of it still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I really don't think, given my level of knowledge at this point, that it would be wise for me to try making adjustments on the service menu. Would rather spend my time trying to find a good professional calibrator and have him come in and make the adjustments.

Not really complaining here about the player or tv, guess I'm just trying to get the best picture I can out of my setup. Though sometimes I think I'm worrying too much about that rather than spending time enoying my dvd viewing.:o

Just got this player and Im in the video adjust menu but the professional setting is not available to me as I scroll through, what is available is enhanced,direct.natural, and the memory 1,2,3 Im assuming professional is one of the preferred settings how can I find this setting?

If hooked up via hdmi there is no 'professional' setting. See p. 60 of the manual for complete info.

There are different named settings for analog Component video output and for digital HDMI video output. The ones you are seeing are for the digital HDMI connection, and the one you want is HDMI Direct mode.

If you disconnect the HDMI cable so as to use Component cables, then you will see the other set of choices -- and the one you want in that case is Professional.
--Bob

Hi everyone. I've been watching this thread for the last few months and have found it very positive re. the 59avi. I've got a demo home for a test drive this weekend.

Any sugesstions for the initial setup for my test drive. I have it hooked up to a Sony HS20 via HDMI & component cables. The audio is connected to a Rotel 1068 (both digital / analog). My old player was the Pioneer 563, so this is a significant upgrade.

I've just set it up and have A/Bed using the component cables between the 563 and 59 and watching Gladiator. My initial observations are:
- the 59 was much more detailed, especially in the coliseum scences with the background crowd / scenery.
- the 59 appears a little washed out but maybe the 563 is just too dark and the colours over saturated. I'll see how it seems after watching it a bit more.
- I tried the HDMI at 720p and the colours were a bit richer but the focus was a little softer.

Anyway, if anyone has any suggestions regarding setup (I have the player till Monday AM) I'd appreciate it.

Don

Very informative thread - purchased an open box unit at my local AV store for just over 50% of list. Had seen some on Ebay for about the same price, but wanted the warranty. Denon 1600 will be headed for Ebay soon.

Unit was manufactured in July - Region: 1 / Ver: 1.506(16) / AV1: 2.0/2.8

Connected to Pioneer Pro 920 via monster HDMI. Have set up video via the various comments Bob and others have provided on thread - Auto 2, 16:9 compressed.... Will be getting Avia out later today.

My question is about DVD audio - I have the DVD connected to my Yamaha 795a via optical out. The Yamaha does Dolby / DTS processing. The instruction manual indicates I should connect via analog cables? R/L/Surround R/Surround L/Center/Sub. What am I missing by using the digital connection? The Yamaha does have these inputs for an external decoder - which is what I guess I would be using from the 59Avi. How are you making this connection with your receivers?

Very nice Player - thanks for all of your input.

The traditional optical and coax digital audio outputs of any of these universal players, and the corresponding digital audio inputs on the A/V receivers or pre-amp/audio-processors, are unable to carry the high bandwidth digital signals used by the exotic audio formats -- DVD-Audio and SACD. I.e., those connections are limited to the digital signal bandwidths used by normal CDs and the multi-channel audio of regular video DVDs. There are some cases where you can get down-converted audio out of those connectors, but usually you will get nothing.

You have two options with the Pioneer 59avi. Either use the stereo or multi-channel ANALOG audio output connections -- in which case the 59avi will decode the digital audio data for you -- or pass high bandwidth, stereo or multi-channel digital audio to your receiver via the IEEE1394 (I-link or "firewire") connector. Of course in the that case you will need to use a receiver or pre/pro that has an I-link input and is able to decode DVD-Audio and SACD.

If you connect I-link to your receiver or pre/pro, you can use that connection for ALL audio formats from the 59avi -- it's a one cable audio solution. The audio DACs in the receiver will do all the work.

If you connect multi-channel analog audio to your receiver or pre/pro, you can also use that for all audio formats -- in which case the 59avi does the decoding and your receiver likely only does volume control ( but note that some receivers and pre/pros offer the option of doing processing on incoming analog audio signals), or you can ALSO connect the optical or coax digital audio and use that for normal CDs and DVDs -- in which case the receiver does the work for those formats.

Besides decoding and converting the digital data to analog for your speakers, the other types of processing your receiver might provide include volume matching for the different speakers, steering bass from the normal speaker channels to your subwoofer, correcting for the time delays inherent in the different distances between speakers and your ears, and room equalization. If you have the 59avi do the work and send out analog audio, it offers a fairly limited set of those features. If you use I-link, of course, those features in the 59avi are bypassed and it is up to the receiver or pre/pro to do that stuff.
--Bob

Hopefully you have calibrated with Avia or some other video cal disc...

Thanks Bob - I do not believe the Yamaha will accept I-Link. Will stick with Digital, as I do like the Yamaha sound fields.

Kevin - getting out the Avia disc tonight. While DVD looked very good right out of the box, hoping for some PQ improvement after calibration.

Is anyone else using this player in conjunction with a Karman Kardon 7300? I have a specific question.

Thanks,
James

Anyone have problems reading certain DVDs? For some reason, I'm getting (for lack of better word) stuttering, or what it appears to be pixelation. I thought it was a bad disc that I rented, but its happened a few times now, and yeah, even though the rental disc does looked a little scratched, when I play it on my crappy old 4 year old Sony, it plays OK.

BTW, it WAS a floor model, but I was told it had very little time on it -- how do I check the life of the player (hours played)?

Even though its a floor model, I can take it back still, so I was wondering if I may have a bum part or if I should take it back and exchange it for something else.

Thanks!

Originally posted by phatboykim
Anyone have problems reading certain DVDs? For some reason, I'm getting (for lack of better word) stuttering, or what it appears to be pixelation. I thought it was a bad disc that I rented, but its happened a few times now, and yeah, even though the rental disc does looked a little scratched, when I play it on my crappy old 4 year old Sony, it plays OK.

BTW, it WAS a floor model, but I was told it had very little time on it -- how do I check the life of the player (hours played)?

Even though its a floor model, I can take it back still, so I was wondering if I may have a bum part or if I should take it back and exchange it for something else.

Thanks!

I have played all sorts of DVDs on my DV-59AVi with no playback problems. Actually some that were touchy on other players work like a charm on it. You really should consider taking it back ASAP!

The Gefen HDMI switcher is HDCP compatible. This config. works:
DV-59AVi HDMI out into HDMI in on Gefen. HDMI to DVI adaptor on Gefen out going via DVI cable into IF 7210 M1-DA input w/DVI to M1-DA adaptor. DV-59AVi display says DVI.

When I get the adaptor, this will be replaced by HDMI out from Gefen, HDMI cable, going into HDMI to M1-DA adaptor into 7210. Wonder if display will say DVI or HDMI?

Originally posted by dixi
doctorG4, I too had a similar problem with my Pio 868 which is connected to a Sony FQ80 TV (CRT) via an Ixos 811 Scartcable (RGB).

On some DVDs, eg The Manchurian Candidate (1962) and Monsters Inc, the subtitles had a somewhat blurred, whiteish background which also was stretched over the lower part of the picture. On Manchurian, dark scenes also got somewhat green.

Luckily, I found a (very) easy way of getting rid of this problem and it has not appeared since:

On your 868, select the following: Home Menu (on the remote) - Initial settings - Video output - Component out - Progressive (NOT Interlaced!)

Don't ask me why it worked but it does. Give it a try (if you haven't)!

dixi,

(what you describe is _exactly_ the artifact I get, boosting the contrast up will in fact show that the white strips becomes a greenish/whitish tint in the whole part of the screen below the offending title)

thanks for the tip. I will give it (yet another) try.

In meanwhile I contacted Pioneer Germany who stated :

1) that they think it is an incompatibility between TV and DVD (up to here nothing new)

2) they think it is triggered by Macrovision (I do not have an opinion about this, what I can say is that it appears in most DVD with subtitle enabled or writing exibiting contrast with background) Recently I noticed a strong effect as well in the menu of DVE which should not be MV protected)

3) They say that exchanging the unit will probably not bring any improvement. :-(

4) they offered to modify the capacitor at the output of RGB to make it more stable. :-)

so I sent in the Pioneer 868 and got it back "modified". Unfortunately exactly the same
defect is there. :-(

I will now do the following:

a) try the trick you suggest.(I think it is already non progressive but....)
b) play with the back level etc.

Here I have a question to Bob (Pariseau):

I have a proble defining the practical sequence how to calibrate the display. Normally I would leave the source (the Pioneer) in the default value and then use AVIA/DVE to adjust the TV settings. If I have simultaneously to modify TV AND DVD it becomes less clear what is the best order in which to do it. Furthermore the presence of Black setup complicates further the process.

Should start with DVD default, adjust the TV then go back to the DVD and ....???
Should I leave Black setup to 0 (as it normally is in PAL countries) and play with the black and white level on the Pioneer or first try setting to IRE 7.5 and then play with black and white ??
If I try both (plus the TV to make it look good) I get infinite number of combinations!

Thanks for any advice you can provide me.

I imagine that this is true in general but I have managed to find this player in the 800.00 range at non authorized dealers but at authorized dealers it is 1300.00... Whats the best way to buy one of these?

Originally posted by cmartyn
I imagine that this is true in general but I have managed to find this player in the 800.00 range at non authorized dealers but at authorized dealers it is 1300.00... Whats the best way to buy one of these?

check your PMs...

I bought mine from an authorized dealer well under $1K.

Don't buy unauthorized unless you like spinning the wheel to save $100

Somebody please PM me about an authorized dealer with a sub-$1K price. I'm in North Carolina and Tweeter is my only local option at $1300.

Thanks.

Yes, 1300 is like an unreal price it seams but the more I read about this player the more I like it, even at 1300.

Thanks for that PM by the way!

One question. I have a Sony 4:3 HDTV TV. My Sony player was set to Wide Screen. 4:3 material appeared full screen and 16:9 material appeared letter boxed. There was no pillowboxing. Will the Pioneer work the same way? By reading this thread, it looks like it will pillowbox it through the HDMI. That would suck. I try and get 4:3 versions of DVD's whenever I can because most directors dont have a clue how to use a widescreen lense anyhow.

Originally posted by KramerTC
Somebody please PM me about an authorized dealer with a sub-$1K price. I'm in North Carolina and Tweeter is my only local option at $1300.

Thanks.

I bought mine for under $1000 at a authorized dealer here in N Cal.

Tell the guy at Tweeter you will pay $950-975 for it and to go see the manager.

Thanks for the PMs guys.

I did not know you could ask for a price reduction at Tweeter. I'll try it this weekend. If it doesn't work I'll use the sources provided on the PMs.

ABT has it for 999

Originally posted by KramerTC
Thanks for the PMs guys.

I did not know you could ask for a price reduction at Tweeter. I'll try it this weekend. If it doesn't work I'll use the sources provided on the PMs.

It's surprising how many people don't realize this.

You can attempt to "deal" with the salesmen at The Good Guys as well.

Just thought Id check in with you fellows..

My 59avi continues to do a flawless job, so much so that I have abandoned the "dvd" forum boards lately..so I thought Id come by and say hi :)

Originally posted by psujohny
Just thought Id check in with you fellows..

My 59avi continues to do a flawless job, so much so that I have abandoned the "dvd" forum boards lately..so I thought Id come by and say hi :)

hehehe... I must agree that it is a great player. Absolutely no complaints from me at all. I watched The Day After Tomorrow yesterday on it and everything was flawless... dark scenes, bright scenes, no macrblocking, color issues, etc... at all. :)

I just bought a 59avi from HIPPO'S AUDIO VIDEO.COM, an authorized dealer, for a total price of slightly over $900. Shipping from NY to CA took one week. Hippo's double-boxed the unit, and shipped it via UPS within a few hours of my phone order.

Originally posted by WayneFChin
I just bought a 59avi from HIPPO'S AUDIO VIDEO.COM, an authorized dealer, for a total price of slightly over $900. Shipping from NY to CA took one week. Hippo's double-boxed the unit, and shipped it via UPS within a few hours of my phone order.

That is an incredible price from an authorized dealer.

Congrats, and welcome to the club!

:)

I just returned my 59avi (which was the floor model having disc reading problems).

Even though it was past the 30-day store policy, they exchanged it for me with a brand new one! Funny thing, brand new, it is now less than $1k (at the time I bought the floor model, a brand new one was a couple hundred OVER $1K). Since I paid less for the floor model, I just paid the difference to their current new price. In essence, I guess I was able to enjoy the player for a few months and still (in the end) get it from an authorized dealer for under $1k!!

The new one is great! Later build date (Sept 2004) so I assume all y/c delay problems have been addressed, it contains the latest firmware (506) and it plays the discs I had troubles with earlier!!


Originally posted by Fred Krampits
I have played all sorts of DVDs on my DV-59AVi with no playback problems. Actually some that were touchy on other players work like a charm on it. You really should consider taking it back ASAP!

Originally posted by WayneFChin
I just bought a 59avi from HIPPO'S AUDIO VIDEO.COM, an authorized dealer, for a total price of slightly over $900. Shipping from NY to CA took one week. Hippo's double-boxed the unit, and shipped it via UPS within a few hours of my phone order.

I did as well a few months ago. Great price and great service.

htomei

Originally posted by htomei22
I did as well a few months ago. Great price and great service.

htomei

I did as well... good place to order from... I am planning on buying a 56txi from them as soon as they have them in stock... :)

I cant seem to get DVD audio's to work? The menu with song selection is on the screen DVD is playing but no sound? help pleaseeeeeeeeeeeee
Thanks
-T

Originally posted by island_342
I cant seem to get DVD audio's to work? The menu with song selection is on the screen DVD is playing but no sound? help pleaseeeeeeeeeeeee
Thanks
-T

First thing to check, do you have the analog cables connected from the player to the receiver?

Second I would check the players settings and make sure you configured it right to play DVD-Audio.

Wanted to chime in and let you know that I bought the 59avi at Tweeter this weekend. $999 is now their price. Fair price for a local purchase so I got it from them. Thanks to all of you. I've been lurking on this thread for quite a while and became very impressed with the quaility of information being shared and the lack of any serious bugs. Build date is October 2004 and firmware version is 506.

This player will be used in the family room mainly for listening to DVD-As and SACDs and will feed a DLP front projector in that same room in a few months.

In the mean time I connected the 59avi to my CRT RPTV to watch some movies using component at 480P; my TV doesn't have digital inputs. I have a HTPC (using VGA at 1080i timings) and a Zenith 318 (1080i through component) for DVD viewing. I was very surprised by how much better than the Zenith 318 the Pioneer was at 480P. Much better colors, I saw more detail accross the board and the picture just looked more 3D. Oh yeah, no macroblocking and no green push.. but you guys knew that already.
The Pioneer was on par with the HTPC and of course much easier to use.

I can't wait to use the hdmi output at 720P to my future DLP projector.

Here's one for some of you guys to "scratch your heads over." My 59 Avi has been connected to my VSX-56xTXi since I bought that receiver several months ago. It's connected to the receiver via component and firewire for the audio. I had the HDMI out connected to my Sony RPTV (KP57WV700) DVI input with a Monster "breakout" cable but honestly, I couldn't see much if any improvement in the picture, so I disconnected it. The receiver is connected to the display via Monster M-1000 component cable and I have watched several DVD's since making the original hookup and no settings were changed .Well, lo and behold, this past Sat night when I went to watch "Ben-Hur" I got no picture from the component output. After checking the menus again and reading the trouble-shooting sections of both manuals, I pulled out the TV and unplugged the receiver's component cable from its original input and replugged it into the other component input, removing the Dish's component cable and plugging it back in where the receiver's cable had been connected. (Confused yet?) Basically, I swapped component cables and inputs in the TV. And then, Voila, I once again had a picture. Also I checked the other component input
on the TV and it also was working. So, I'm wondering what happened here. And, again, I didn't change any menu settings either on the player or the receiver. Would it be more likely that the output from the player failed temporarily or might it have been the receiver? This receiver has only two component inputs but I'm only using one of them for the DV59. I would greatly appreciate any comments, input or suggestions. Thanx.

I am thinkng of buying this player to be used with my iScanHD (not HD+) which does not process any HDCP signals. When the pioneer outputs in 480i/p via its HDMI output does it output an HDCP signal? The reason I am asking is that I want the iScan to process the signal and not pass it through. To connect to the iScan I will be using an HDMI to DVI cable.

Many thanks

Try connecting the player to the DVDO HD via component and setting the player's output to 480i.

Works fer me. The DVDO HD is outputting 720p over dvi to my front projector.

No DVDO product processes 480i over it's dvi input yet.

Have you tried connecting the DVD player via HDMI straight to projector? Wondering if you notice any quality difference vs. component.

I also have HDTV with HDMI and am wondering if I should connect the dvd via HDMI and then HDTV via component or vice versa. If I connect HDTV via component then any non HDTV channels will be processed via the DVDO and any HDTV channels will be passed through.

I do not think you can use that model DVDO w/the DV-59AVi. The Gefen DVI switcher which in only HDCP passthrough, not HDCP compliant, will not pass the HDMI signal from the DV-59AVi. The Gefen HDMI switcher which IS HDCP compliant does pass the HDMI signal. Since your DVDO is HDCP passthrough ONLY, I doubt it will pass the HDMI signal onto your display device. Check w/DVDO.

Just bought a 59AVi from Hippos also. Great price. Does anyone know if the newer units shipping are without the CUE problem? Sorry if this has been addressed but the search didn't bring up anything useful.

When did the 59avi ever have the CUE problem? IIRC, Secrets initial testing showed some chroma delay (via component?). Is this what you are referring to?

larry

There is the alt 3:2 flags problem, but that is easily corrected by forcing film processing... you can check for this easily if you see a flashing # symbol in the display next to the bit rate display...

Originally posted by UMD_Terp
There is the alt 3:2 flags problem, but that is easily corrected by forcing film processing... you can check for this easily if you see a flashing # symbol in the display next to the bit rate display... Ah, yes. But not the "original" CUE bug that is chronicled at Secrets that the previous Pio players (and others) had.

larry

Originally posted by PooperScooper
Ah, yes. But not the "original" CUE bug that is chronicled at Secrets that the previous Pio players (and others) had.

larry

Yeah, the original CUE problems that plagued prior Pioneer players have all been fixed... chroma delay (a problem only with component output) was fixed via firmware upgrades and the latest version has no real outstanding issues at all.

Hi - has it been definitively determined that the 59AVi will work with a NEW Gefen DVI switch? I saw some iffy comments earlier in the thread.

And, my old Gefen DVI switch was flaky in responding to IR and switching back and forth often took a few tries - anyone using any other DVI switch with 59AVi?

According to Gefen engineers the answer is yes, but no one in this thread has confirmed it. Also, with a presumed mixture of Gefen DVI switchers in the marketplace, some compliant and some not, I would say you can only safely buy one from Gefen.

Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
According to Gefen engineers the answer is yes, but no one in this thread has confirmed it. Also, with a presumed mixture of Gefen DVI switchers in the marketplace, some compliant and some not, I would say you can only safely buy one from Gefen.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to try the DVILink model instead. I used to have a Gefen and it was flaky at switching and I didn't like the "end to end" cable config. So, with this issue, I'm taking this opportunity to try another product. I'll report back whether or not it works.

According to Kris Deering, Secrets did another testing round on the 59AVi recently. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=525949

Originally posted by UMD_Terp
If you have tried the 3910 and found it to be not to your liking, then you should give the 59avi a turn provided you can take the 3910 back and have the option of taking the 59avi back as well if it is not to your liking either... FWIW, this player has been great with my Mits. DLP... I seem to remember you went from a Mits DLP to a Diamond CRT, correct? I think this player would look great on your CRT as well...

I picked up a 59avi the other day and compared it to my 3910. I could not own the 3910 without looking at the 59avi, the 59avi stayed in my head, I tried to ignore it but it would not go away, it kept calling me.

In my subjective comparison, the 3910 edges out the 59avi in PQ. I thought the picture produced by the 59avi was a tad bit too noisy for my liking. The 3910 just have produces a clearer and less noisy picture. I made this comparsion of players hooked up to my TV via component cables.

I will give the 59avi the edge for having the better scaled image through HDMI/DVI even though I did not compare it to the 3910 that way. Since no one has reported any green push via HDMI with the 59avi connected to any type of display, I will accept that as evidence that 59avi is better scaled than the 3910, do to the slight green tint on the 3910.

But the progressive scan image via component on the 3910 is better. The blacks are most impressive on the 59avi, but the picture is still kind of shaky or fuzzy, the 3910 has a sharper picture.

I found the noise reduction controls of the Pioneer useless to reduce the noise I was seeing. I used several DVD's to check if the noise was coming from the player or coming from the disc. I tried Spiderman 2 SB, LOTR ROTK, and Jurrassic Park 3. On all three disc, I noticed that noise, when I sampled the same discs using the 3910, the noise was less noticeable.

Even though the 59avi has that noise the picture is pretty good, very little tweaking is necessary to get a good picture, but the overall picture, in my opinion, just isn't better than the 3910.

Originally posted by UMD_Terp
If you have tried the 3910 and found it to be not to your liking, then you should give the 59avi a turn provided you can take the 3910 back and have the option of taking the 59avi back as well if it is not to your liking either... FWIW, this player has been great with my Mits. DLP... I seem to remember you went from a Mits DLP to a Diamond CRT, correct? I think this player would look great on your CRT as well...

I picked up a 59avi the other day and compared it to my 3910. I could not own the 3910 without looking at the 59avi, the 59avi stayed in my head, I tried to ignore it but it would not go away, it kept calling me.

In my subjective comparison, the 3910 edges out the 59avi in PQ. I thought the picture produced by the 59avi was a tad bit too noisy for my liking. The 3910 just have produces a clearer and less noisy picture. I made this comparsion of players hooked up to my TV via component cables.

I will give the 59avi the edge for having the better scaled image through HDMI/DVI even though I did not compare it to the 3910 that way. Since no one has reported any green push via HDMI with the 59avi connected to any type of display, I will accept that as evidence that 59avi is better scaled than the 3910, do to the slight green tint on the 3910.

But the progressive scan image via component on the 3910 is better. The blacks are most impressive on the 59avi, but the picture is still kind of shaky or fuzzy, the 3910 has a sharper picture.

I found the noise reduction controls of the Pioneer useless to reduce the noise I was seeing. I used several DVD's to check if the noise was coming from the player or coming from the disc. I tried Spiderman 2 SB, LOTR ROTK, and Jurrassic Park 3. On all three disc, I noticed that noise, when I sampled the same discs using the 3910, the noise was less noticeable.

Even though the 59avi has that noise the picture is pretty good, very little tweaking is necessary to get a good picture, but the overall picture, in my opinion, just isn't better than the 3910.

Originally posted by Auditor55
I picked up a 59avi the other day and compared it to my 3910. I could not own the 3910 without looking at the 59avi, the 59avi stayed in my head, I tried to ignore it but it would not go away, it kept calling me.

In my subjective comparison, the 3910 edges out the 59avi in PQ. I thought the picture produced by the 59avi was a tad bit too noisy for my liking. The 3910 just have produces a clearer and less noisy picture. I made this comparsion of players hooked up to my TV via component cables.

I will give the 59avi the edge for having the better scaled image through HDMI/DVI even though I did not compare it to the 3910 that way. Since no one has reported any green push via HDMI with the 59avi connected to any type of display, I will accept that as evidence that 59avi is better scaled than the 3910, do to the slight green tint on the 3910.

But the progressive scan image via component on the 3910 is better. The blacks are most impressive on the 59avi, but the picture is still kind of shaky or fuzzy, the 3910 has a sharper picture.

I found the noise reduction controls of the Pioneer useless to reduce the noise I was seeing. I used several DVD's to check if the noise was coming from the player or coming from the disc. I tried Spiderman 2 SB, LOTR ROTK, and Jurrassic Park 3. On all three disc, I noticed that noise, when I sampled the same discs using the 3910, the noise was less noticeable.

Even though the 59avi has that noise the picture is pretty good, very little tweaking is necessary to get a good picture, but the overall picture, in my opinion, just isn't better than the 3910.

I agree with most of what you say here, including the fact that the 3910 was "cleaner" than the Elite.....but I would note that this difference in noise was very, very slight and I thought it made the Denon's pq softer in comparison to the 59avi.

But, in any event, this is not the thread to compare the 59avi with other players, it is for owners of the 59avi to discuss various issues with their units.

:)

Originally posted by Auditor55

In my subjective comparison, the 3910 edges out the 59avi in PQ. I thought the picture produced by the 59avi was a tad bit too noisy for my liking. The 3910 just have produces a clearer and less noisy picture. I made this comparsion of players hooked up to my TV via component cables.


Not on my display (42'' Hitachi plasma), both 2910 and 3910 were not in the same league either via Component or HDMI/DVI to either 2900 or Pio 59avi. Pio 59avi is prestinely clear and via HDMI/DVI it is in a class of its own....

Anyway, agree with Rob; this is getting off-topic....

Ritesh

Originally posted by Auditor55
I picked up a 59avi the other day and compared it to my 3910. I could not own the 3910 without looking at the 59avi, the 59avi stayed in my head, I tried to ignore it but it would not go away, it kept calling me.

In my subjective comparison, the 3910 edges out the 59avi in PQ. I thought the picture produced by the 59avi was a tad bit too noisy for my liking. The 3910 just have produces a clearer and less noisy picture. I made this comparsion of players hooked up to my TV via component cables.

I will give the 59avi the edge for having the better scaled image through HDMI/DVI even though I did not compare it to the 3910 that way. Since no one has reported any green push via HDMI with the 59avi connected to any type of display, I will accept that as evidence that 59avi is better scaled than the 3910, do to the slight green tint on the 3910.

But the progressive scan image via component on the 3910 is better. The blacks are most impressive on the 59avi, but the picture is still kind of shaky or fuzzy, the 3910 has a sharper picture.

I found the noise reduction controls of the Pioneer useless to reduce the noise I was seeing. I used several DVD's to check if the noise was coming from the player or coming from the disc. I tried Spiderman 2 SB, LOTR ROTK, and Jurrassic Park 3. On all three disc, I noticed that noise, when I sampled the same discs using the 3910, the noise was less noticeable.

Even though the 59avi has that noise the picture is pretty good, very little tweaking is necessary to get a good picture, but the overall picture, in my opinion, just isn't better than the 3910.

I can't comment in relation to the component PQ being noisy as I did not make that comparison. To me the 59avi PQ seems more detailed over HDMI. The difference is slight though. I never noticed any noise in the picture and I am using a DLP display. Both the 3910 and 59avi are great players IMO and their differences are subtle. To me the 59avi over HDMI just looked more detailed and had better colors overall.

So what player are you going with now... tough call, I bet :)

With a 1080i capable display, is it always best to allow the 59AVi to upconvert the pic to 1080i rez thru HDMI, or will 480p make for a better picture? I'm talking about using this player with a CRT RPTV with DVI input.

Originally posted by William Moore
With a 1080i capable display, is it always best to allow the 59AVi to upconvert the pic to 1080i rez thru HDMI, or will 480p make for a better picture? I'm talking about using this player with a CRT RPTV with DVI input.

"Always", no.

Your best bet is to try both and see which looks better to your eyes.

I would think letting the 59avi do the scaling would yield the better result, but this really depends on your particular display.

I know this is kind of funny to ask this question in this thread. But does anyone have news about Pioneer's upcoming flagship DVD players as 59AVi has been out for a while(I know it's still very good, but everyone is catching up)

Originally posted by Auditor55
In my subjective comparison, the 3910 edges out the 59avi in PQ. I thought the picture produced by the 59avi was a tad bit too noisy for my liking. The 3910 just have produces a clearer and less noisy picture.

That's DETAIL DETAIL DETAIL !

The 59avi is capable of extracting so much detail from the DVD (that is normally filtered but the Pioneer has a control in the video adjust menu) that you are seeing MPEG compression artifacts!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Rob Tomlin
But, in any event, this is not the thread to compare the 59avi with other players, it is for owners of the 59avi to discuss various issues with their units.

OK, here's what owners could try:

Set sharpness mid to 1/4 (2 clicks above soft)
Set sharpness high to 1/4 (2 clicks above soft)
Set detail to 1/4-1/2 (2-4 clicks above min) depending on the quality of the DVD!
Set chroma and hue according to blue filter test on the PLUGE.
Of course brightness (black level) as per your favorite test pattern.
Everything else I left at default.

No excess noise just killer detail and a real, film-like (but not soft), transparent image!

Originally posted by Auditor55
Even though the 59avi has that noise the picture is pretty good, very little tweaking is necessary to get a good picture, but the overall picture, in my opinion, just isn't better than the 3910.

As you can see by my last post, a considerable amount of tweaking IS required to get the best picture. You also need test patterns and some knowledge to do it properly.

Originally posted by AVfile
As you can see by my last post, a considerable amount of tweaking IS required to get the best picture.


You are in the minority, unfortunately. The consensus is this player is almost perfect out of the box with very little tweaking required but ar least you are getting great results.

Out of the box, sharpness was a little high, causing ringing visible on the sharpness test pattern.
All the settings I mention are standard stuff to double-check whenever getting a new source.
I'm glad I took the time to do it. I was tempted to crank DETAIL to the max, as in my Pioneer RPTV.

Ideally you want the player to be "neutral", i.e. decode/deinterlace/scale the mpeg without any filtering if you want to see what's really on the DVD (whether you like what you see or not). It's possible you need tweaks to achieve this, although I don't know a way to do this. However, a lot of people only use player adjustments when sharing one input on the display via a switch, or to make up for deficiencies in the display.

larry

Out of the box, sharpness was a little high, causing ringing visible on the sharpness test pattern. Meaning you saw ringing with sharpness off/disabled on your TV? (along with VSM and some of the other things CRTs like to employ).

larry

Yes.

Interesting. Component or HDMI?

larry

I only use component.
YMMV.

Ok, I was hoping you didn't say HDMI because that would really be interesting. :) Even with things properly calibrated/setup it can be tough to get rid of ringing via component. Seems like it was nice that the player had the feature to adjust sharpness.

larry

Others have complained about excessive noise/ringing via HDMI, in some threads here, but I think they were able to get it sorted.

Originally posted by AVfile
Others have complained about excessive noise/ringing via HDMI, in some threads here, but I think they were able to get it sorted. Oh, ok, I missed those posts.

larry

Hello all,

I am trying to gauge the differences in the audio stages and the relative merits (yes, I know this is 59avi owners thread, please don't flame me...) of the Elite 59avi vs. Denon's flagship 5910.

In that respect I would like pointers to things like DAC models in the Pioneer (AFAIK it's BB, but which one ?) and later audio stages.

Kris ?

TIA for any pointers,

F.

P.S. The database at http://members.cox.net/alexhardware/IC_database1.htm looks old. It lists only the 59avi but not the "Elite" version, and I am assuming there is a difference btw them. Right ?

Originally posted by Florian.Daniel
Hello all,

I am trying to gauge the differences in the audio stages and the relative merits (yes, I know this is 59avi owners thread, please don't flame me...) of the Elite 59avi vs. Denon's flagship 5910.

In that respect I would like pointers to things like DAC models in the Pioneer (AFAIK it's BB, but which one ?) and later audio stages.

Kris ?

TIA for any pointers,

F.

P.S. The database at http://members.cox.net/alexhardware/IC_database1.htm looks old. It lists only the 59avi but not the "Elite" version, and I am assuming there is a difference btw them. Right ?

They more than likely sound identical. They both probably sound identical to your gardern variety $150.00 dvd player.

www.pcabx.com

It lists only the 59avi but not the "Elite" version, and I am assuming there is a difference btw them. Right ?
There is only one Pioneer Elite 59avi. European model number I'm pretty sure is different.
larry

Sorry if I've missed it but I've read all the thread and cannot find which chips the DV-59 use for de-interlacing/scaling. Could someone point it to me?

Originally posted by Florian.Daniel
Hello all,

I am trying to gauge the differences in the audio stages and the relative merits (yes, I know this is 59avi owners thread, please don't flame me...) of the Elite 59avi vs. Denon's flagship 5910.

In that respect I would like pointers to things like DAC models in the Pioneer (AFAIK it's BB, but which one ?) and later audio stages.

Kris ?

TIA for any pointers,

F.

P.S. The database at http://members.cox.net/alexhardware/IC_database1.htm looks old. It lists only the 59avi but not the "Elite" version, and I am assuming there is a difference btw them. Right ?

I checked out the chart at your link and the chart seems to be just receivers and amps. The Elite 59 on it is the A/V receiver not the DVD player.

Originally posted by Fred Krampits
I checked out the chart at your link and the chart seems to be just receivers and amps. The Elite 59 on it is the A/V receiver not the DVD player.

Look again. At the bottom of the table there is a tab that says
"AV Receivers-Processors / DVD Players / Soundcards" ....

;)

Originally posted by Auditor55
They more than likely sound identical. They both probably sound identical to your gardern variety $150.00 dvd player.

That pretty much sums it, then. I'll start looking elsewhere.

Thanks all who chipped in.

F.

Originally posted by Florian.Daniel
Look again. At the bottom of the table there is a tab that says
"AV Receivers-Processors / DVD Players / Soundcards" ....

;)

Thanks! I got it.

My eyes must be getting old.... :)

Originally posted by walker15
I know this is kind of funny to ask this question in this thread. But does anyone have news about Pioneer's upcoming flagship DVD players as 59AVi has been out for a while(I know it's still very good, but everyone is catching up)

Anyone?

As far as I have read, Pioneer has not released any info about any new flagship model to replace the 59AVi at either CES2005 or other Electronics shows held recently.

Originally posted by Florian.Daniel
That pretty much sums it, then. I'll start looking elsewhere.

Thanks all who chipped in.

F.

You are kidding, right? I wouldn't dismiss it based on one person's comments. The 59avi is no $150 cd player and neither is the 5910 but that's a different topic and thread entirely. The best advice is to listen to the players yourself.

Yes, I was kidding (like the original poster, apparently).

However, since there is only one 59avi (no Elite and no-Elite versions) and it has been out there for a while I will look for other (i.e. newer) alternatives.

Originally posted by Florian.Daniel
Yes, I was kidding (like the original poster, apparently).

However, since there is only one 59avi (no Elite and no-Elite versions) and it has been out there for a while I will look for other (i.e. newer) alternatives. Read hear more often and you'll see the that the original poster was not kidding. And neither am I. :)

larry

Originally posted by Auditor55
They more than likely sound identical. They both probably sound identical to your gardern variety $150.00 dvd player.

www.pcabx.com

Uhh...no. Have you listened to the 59AVi in comparison to a "garden variety $150.00 player?" I upgraded to the 59 from a Sony NS755V (1st generation budget DVD/SACD player). The difference in the DACs (especially redbook; to a lesser extent SACD as well) is immense.

Doug

I have owned:
Toshiba (various)
Melos DVT ($2k)
Sony 9000ES ($1.5k)
Denon 2900 ($1k)
Linn Unidisk SC ($5k)
Pioneer 59AVi ($1k)

There were huge differences in all of the above. The Sony was my old favorite and the Pioneer Elite is my new favorite, in terms of both audio and video quality.

Originally posted by dr00w
Sorry if I've missed it but I've read all the thread and cannot find which chips the DV-59 use for de-interlacing/scaling. Could someone point it to me?

Some info here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi

Punch in Pioneer Elite.

Originally posted by Florian.Daniel
Yes, I was kidding (like the original poster, apparently).

However, since there is only one 59avi (no Elite and no-Elite versions) and it has been out there for a while I will look for other (i.e. newer) alternatives.


Why? The 59AVi is not really lacking anything, and it's been through some bug fixes. Newer = more bugs. It is a solid product that might be around for a while. Things are not changing as fast as they were a year ago.

Also why compare it to the 5910 which is in a completely different price range? If that is in your budget the 5910 is better, period. However compared to the 5900, at least one professional reviewer prefers the sound of the 59AVi. I think it sounds very high-end.

Originally posted by dougotte
Uhh...no. Have you listened to the 59AVi in comparison to a "garden variety $150.00 player?" I upgraded to the 59 from a Sony NS755V (1st generation budget DVD/SACD player). The difference in the DACs (especially redbook; to a lesser extent SACD as well) is immense.

Doug

No I have not. I would never say conclusively, that player "A" sounds better than player "B" without conducting a properly set up double blind level matched listening test. That is the BEST way to truly determine if sonic differences exist between any source component and not any sighted, bias influenced, unequal listening test.

Can some one share their experience settings, connection 59avi to Sony GW 4 LCD/RPTV, 60XS955, or 55XS955?, connected via HDMI
Thnx

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, I think we've missed answering Daniel's question on whether the DV-59AVi will sound better than the garden variety $150 DVD player like the DV-578As for example.

Connecting to the receiver via digital coax or optical, most of the sound processing will be done by the receiver he's connected to. So in that case, maybe there won't be that much of a difference. The receiver is going to be the difference.

Now if he is connecting to a Pioneer Elite receiver via iLink, there's going to be a much better audio sound, but then again it's being processed on the receiver level. I personally love the way the iLink delivers the audio.

Now in the case of SACD/DVD Audio on the analog from the DV-59AVi and comparing it to the analog from the DV-578As, the DV-59AVi is going to totally blow the lesser player away. I've owned both.

So the question is for Daniel now, in which way are you going to be listening to audio and what kind of a receiver are you using with the player?

That was not Daniel's question. He was asking about DAC chip models and later analog stages, to help himself draw his own conclusions about the DV-59AVi compared to the DVD-5910. So I think it's pretty clear that he is beyond the level of discussion so far.

Originally posted by AVfile
Some info here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi

Punch in Pioneer Elite.

I've already looked there and the infos are incomplete...

MPEG Maker: unknown
MPEG Model: unknown
Deinterlacer Maker: Pure Progressive Cinema
Deinterlacer Model:

Thanks anyway. I guess nobody knows...

Originally posted by AVfile
That was not Daniel's question. He was asking about DAC chip models and later analog stages, to help himself draw his own conclusions about the DV-59AVi compared to the DVD-5910. So I think it's pretty clear that he is beyond the level of discussion so far.

Bingo. But apparently I was not clear enough in my post and I was given the "double blind w. golden ears/ since you can hear it it's not important, garden DVD will be equally good for you" argument...

Yes, 59avi and 5910 are in completely different price brackets. Apples and oranges. But just for comparison sake I wanted to look on TECHNICAL grounds at what's important to me and evaulate if the price difference is worth MY needs.

Was that too much to ask ?

Anyway, since there is only one 59avi I got my answer at the link I posted above.

Cheers,

F.

P.S. For the record, I am looking for a not-too-expensive universal player that has top-end DACs / audio analog and can function decently in a high-end stereo today, later (when getting old) to be integrated in a low/mid home cinema setup (needs to have Firewire/HDMI, audio decoded in the newer/better AVR).

Oops, meant to post here:

I have a question regarding picture alignment/geometry. My Mits 62725 has been set up using the internal set up / alignment test patterns. It is perfectly aligned using those patterns. When I dispaly the test patterns in AVIA or DVE, the picture is off centered to the left. With my returned Denon 2910 you could align the picture from the DVD player setup menu. I don't think you can do this with the 59avi.

I am using the HDMI output directly to the TV. Anyone else seen this and have a solution to offer?.

Has anyone compared the hdmi/dvi out to the component out.
I run the component in auto2 ,7.5 setup and this seems to give me much more detail in the low blacks.
Using the hdmi/dvi out with this setup you have to really lower the contrast and boost the color to get anywhere near the same great picture.
Using 0 setup instead of 7.5 the blacker than black bar in DVE is crushed compared to the 7.5.
I watched fifth element and wow! i,m staying with the component out on this player

Using 0 setup instead of 7.5 the blacker than black bar in DVE is crushed compared to the 7.5.
Good thing you checked. :) Also, it's not uncommon for analog and digital inputs to have completely different PQ settings from the same DVD player.

larry

I am in Australia and have a DV-S969AVi (Oz equivalent of the 59). When setting the HDMI color settings to anything other than ENHANCED I get a purple screen and purple tinge to menus etc.i.e I have a Pioneer 435 plasma and it is connected to the player via direct HDMI.. I have resolution set to 1080i on the player... Any ideas why this occurs.. ?

I recently bought a 59AVi to replace a Toshiba RDXS32 DVR as my primary DVD player, as well as to add SACD/DVD-A functionality and i.Link connectivity to my 56TXi receiver.

While the 59AVi seems to have better PQ than the DVR, I have noticed a few quirks my other DVD players (all Toshiba) have not had. For instance, my 2 year old daughter likes to watch Elmo (Sesame Street) DVD's and some of them will not play on the 59AVi. I get a "check disc" error message displayed on my TV. Yet, the same disc will play flawlessly on my other DVD/DVR players. This past weekend I started playing Star Wars - A New Hope and when I went to the DVD's Options menu and selected the language (it's an old habit I always manually select the 5.1 etc sourround sound) and hit enter, the DVD froze and on the players display the Chapter number was blinking. I removed the disk and cleaned it several times and it continued to do this. There were no significant scratches or "dirt" on it. I went up stairs and put it in a basic Toshiba DVD player and it played just fine. I went back downstairs and was finally able to get the disk to play by quickly skipping the chapters past the main menu and THX sequence. This only happend with SW - A New Hope DVD issue, the other 4 Star Wars DVD's play perfectly.

I don't know if this is a problem, but when I put a DVD-R in that my local boat club made, I had to turn off progressive scan to get it to play, otherwise it would play a frame, and freeze for many seconds, play a frame and freeze, etc. This doesn't bother me much, I assume it's just cause it's a DVD-R and it's not high-qulaity material or critical viewing anyway

I'm mainly bothered by the fact that a $1000 flagship DVD player has these issues, but a 4 year old mainstream DVD player does not. :confused:

You might want to report these problems to your dealer and if you continue to have problems you can certainly request to replace the "defective" unit with a new one. Also check the troubleshooting pages in the manual. Sometimes they can help. I once had an SACD which my 59 AVi wouldn't play and I sent the disc back to Telarc for a replacement, but I have yet to check the replacement disc. I have found over the years, especially with video, that the more costly and complex and equipment is, the greater potential for problems. P.S. I also have a 56TXi which is connected to my 59 via the Ilink. I really like that. Do you?

Monty:

If you bought the player at a local dealer you may want to visit them with the DVD and see if the Star Wars DVD has the same problem on one of their floor models. I've played hundreds of DVDs in mine now and have not had a single problem. DVDRs have worked fine as well.

This is an open question to anybody who has information regarding SDI modifications to the 59avi.

I have been searching all of the avs forum threads for information regarding SDI modifications to the Pioneer 59avi.

I was wondering if anyone knows where I may be able to find information regarding the correct wire connection points on the video processing board for the Pioneer 59avi using a Pixel Magic Systems SDI modification board (BT656 Pro).

I have already found the 27 MHz clock signal (4 V P-P confirmed at SDI mod board with a 60 MHz Tektronix DSO), the 5 Volt supply, and what I believe is the 8-bit signal from the MPEG2 decoder. But all I see on the TV screen through my DVDO iScan HD+ with the SDI input selected is a black screen, sometimes with sporadic bits of video information (or something else?).

I just want to verify that my connections are correct before I try to troubleshoot the iScan or the PMS SDI board.

Your help would be appreciated.

This might seem like a stupid question, but since the 59 does 480i over HDMI, what is the point of doing an SDI Mod to it? Won't an HDMI/DVI cable work for the iScan HD+?

This might seem like a stupid question, but since the 59 does 480i over HDMI, what is the point of doing an SDI Mod to it? Won't an HDMI/DVI cable work for the iScan HD+?
__________________________________________________________
The iScan HD+ does not input 480i over the DVI input...yet. I have heard some recent responses from DVDO that they have thought about adding this functionality through an update to the HD+, but not to count on it as it may never happen.

The Lumagens accept a 480i signal over DVI.

Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
The Lumagens accept a 480i signal over DVI.

Yep.

How much is the Lumagen scaler?

Originally posted by Rob Tomlin
Yep.

How much is the Lumagen scaler? My PJ dealer carries them affordably I believe www.hometheaterdoc.com. They guys here probably do as well.

Need help? sony GW4 owners pls? thnx

Who's going to A/B the Oppo Digital DVD player (Secrets Score of 94) against the DV-59AVi?

Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
Who's going to A/B the Oppo Digital DVD player (Secrets Score of 94) against the DV-59AVi?

MB problem = no care...

There is a poll in the Video Processors section of AVS for those interested in passing 480i over HDMI to the scaler DVDO IScan HD+ here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=531123

It would be nice if 59avi owners interested in that "feature" would go there and vote also, since the 59avi is still one of the few players out there that can pass 480i over HDMI...

Please post and give input on the poll. I will guarantee it gets to various sources at DVDO. Thanks.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=531123

Last week I posted to this thread regarding some issues with my 59's inability to properly play a few disks - wouldn't play a Sesame Street Elmo DVD, would only play my boat clubs DVD-RW disk if I turned off progresive scan, and would only play my Star Wars Episode IV disk if I skipped past the menu's directly to the feature.

I returned my player to ABT Electronics today and was even more impressed with them than ever. I originally bought my 59AVi as a demo/floor model at a great price. When I went in this morning, all I wanted to do was trade it in on a new one and pay the difference, ~$200. To my surprise, they gave me a brand new, sealed box 59AVi in exchange for my floor model/demo 59AVi. So in the end I ended up with a brand new played for less than 50% MSRP.

After hooking up the i.Link and my component cables to my 56TXi and plugging it in and setting it up, I immediately tried the disks that gave me problems before and the played flawlessly.

I don't know if it's my mind playing tricks on me, but I'd swear the PQ was even better. I'd noticed a few situations with the previous 59 where there was blooming, outlining (like too much sharpness), and some grainy textures on certain images that are no longer present with the new 59 even though my display is calibrated correctly for sharpness, brightness, etc.

I love ABT! It pays to find a good retailer and stick with them.

Monty:

This one probably has newer firmware which could result in the difference in pic quality. Glad to hear that the DVDs played now. I have not had a single problem with a disc yet.

You sound as happy with yours now as I am with mine! :D

I am fairly new to this arena and have just purchased a 59avi to go with my 56txi. I have it hooked up via ilink and component running through my AVR to a mistubishi 55" HDTV (no HDMI/DVI input). I have done my best to set up my monitor video settings using the DVE DVD but now I see the 59avi has its own settings some of which are the same at the tv has (black level, contrast, etc). How do the settings on the TV and the settings on the DVD player interact with one another. If I have already set the monitor settings, do I have to set the dvd settings too?

To be honest, I do not see much picture quality differnce between the 59avi and the standard progressive scan dvd player I had previously...so maybe I don't have it set up properly. I am certainly not an expert in Video processing and don't know what half of the video settings on the 59avi do...so some help would be much appreciated

Thx,

set your player settings to DIRECT and make adjustments on the tv. As far as upconversion usually flat panel tvs benefit the most from this (LCD, Plasma). I don't know how component looks from this player as most people are probably using hdmi/dvi with it. Use DVE to calibrate your tv settings. Oh, and lemme know how the 56txi sounds with Ilink as I'm thinking about getting that receiver ;)

Thanks.

The ilink sounds very crisp, clean and clear. I have only had the dvd player for a week so I plan on doing more exploration. The reciever has no trouble pushing my 4ohm m&k's and sounds great. I think I have read somewhere that the DAC's on the 59avi are better than on the 56txi but when connected through ilink, you are using the ones from the AVR. So far I have not compared the DVD-A/SACD via the mutiple line hookup to ilink so I can't give you feedback there.

Kris Derring of Secrets (from thread on new Benchmark Tests);

In the end I still feel the Denon 5910 and Pioneer 59AVi are the showcase players right now that should look great regardless of display. [MB not an issue w/either.] The Oppo is great for video but only if you don't have the MB issue. The 5910 is way up there in price, too.

The 3910 is a phenomenal player IF you don't have any MB issues. The 59AVi and 3910 are breakthrough products in terms of features and build for the price, but the 3910 has the MB caveat, that may be a deal breaker for a lot of people.

Summary: If you have MB problem: 1) Denon 5910; 2) Pioneer 59AVi.
If you don't have MB problem: 1) Denon 5910; 2) Denon 3910/Pioneer 59AVi; 3) Oppo.

Can't wait to see Kris' now 59AVi ratings.

I've got the Oppo (latest firmware), 59AVi (latest firmware), and the Samsung 850 sitting in my theater room waiting for my new H79 to arrive. I can't wait to compare the performance on them.