Hi Carl,

Is the HDMI output on 59Avi a 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 ? It is not switchable in this Pio unit, but my other player, Marantz 7600, has that selection n will benefit from the 12-bit video processing in my Sony HS-60 projector..
Don't know. I can't get it to output anthing other than RGB in my setup.

If the HS-60 is dong the scaling (12 bits internally), I don't think it matters if you feed it 8-bit or 12-bit from DVD sources. If the 59Avi is doing the scaling, it would make sense to have it send 12-bit to the HS-60. Please note that I haven't tested any of this, so I may be writing out of my a**.

On another note, I tried the multi-region patch discussed a while back, available from some Swiss company. It really works great! I play a lot of region 2 PAL discs, and they are being output in native PAL interlaced format, which is exactly what I want.

On another note, I tried the multi-region patch discussed a while back, available from some Swiss company. It really works great! I play a lot of region 2 PAL discs, and they are being output in native PAL interlaced format, which is exactly what I want.

Does this patch include PAL->NTSC?

Also, one more clarification on the RGB/YCrCb thing. Is there any downside to using RBG with the 59AVi and any of the HDMI resolutions? I'm just curious as to why other recommend YCrCb for other upconverting players. I don't fully understand the differences between RGB and YCrCb as related to HDMI output formats, so any light you can shed would be appreciated.

Does this patch include PAL->NTSC?

Also, one more clarification on the RGB/YCrCb thing. Is there any downside to using RBG with the 59AVi and any of the HDMI resolutions? I'm just curious as to why other recommend YCrCb for other upconverting players. I don't fully understand the differences between RGB and YCrCb as related to HDMI output formats, so any light you can shed would be appreciated.
Nope, don't think it does any PAL->NTSC conversions. It just outputs whatever is on the disc.

By outputting YCbCr, you will gain two things:

1. Control over the Component->RGB transform (i.e Color/Tint controls on your set).
2. IF (and this is a big if)
....a. The 59Avi uses more than 8-bits internally to do the scaling
....b. The 59Avi up-scales to anything greater than 480p
....c. The 59Avi retains these extra bits when sending 12 bit data over HDMI
....d. Your display device accepts 12-bit data and retains it in 12-bit format all the way to the actual pixel being lit up.

...you could see better gradation. Maybe.

It's often recommended to use YCbCr over HDMI if available. The most common reason for this is that some (a lot) of players suffer white clipping when sending RGB data. The internal YCbCr->RGB transform re-maps the video levels, and messes things up. The DV59Avi does not suffer from this problem.

Carl,

Thanks for shedding some light on this subject. All of your comments on the 59AVi via HDMI are very informative, I compiled a list of some of your postings as a 'reference guide' for HDMI settings with this player :D

Also, were you able to verify if the 480i HDMI output is 4:4:4 or 4:2:2? 4:2:2 RBG would be ideal, right?

Carl,

Thanks for shedding some light on this subject. All of your comments on the 59AVi via HDMI are very informative, I compiled a list of some of your postings as a 'reference guide' for HDMI settings with this player :D

Also, were you able to verify if the 480i HDMI output is 4:4:4 or 4:2:2? 4:2:2 RBG would be ideal, right?
AFAIK, RGB over HDMi is always 4:4:4, i.e. full Luma and Chroma resolution, 8 bits each for R, G and B for every pixel. That's what you want.

Carl,

Thanks for shedding some light on this subject. All of your comments on the 59AVi via HDMI are very informative, I compiled a list of some of your postings as a 'reference guide' for HDMI settings with this player :D



I agree.

Sam, if you have a nice little summary of Carl's HDMI comments, I would be happy to put them in the first post!

:)

I agree.

Sam, if you have a nice little summary of Carl's HDMI comments, I would be happy to put them in the first post!

:)

They're all kinda jumbled up, but I'll PM them to you tonight and we'll see if we can organize them better ok?

They're all kinda jumbled up, but I'll PM them to you tonight and we'll see if we can organize them better ok?

Sounds good!

Carl,
Also, were you able to verify if the 480i HDMI output is 4:4:4 or 4:2:2?

over at the video processor forum some one confirms it does YCbCr 4:4:4 over HDMI 480i, when the HDMI Color Adju is "Standard".

I think 4:2:2 is unlikely as it would be labelled as "10bit" HDMI. If it could all the marketing material would have been raving abt "10 bit video" and stuff like that.

Since I have been updating the first post in this thread (I have been lagging behind on doing so) I would encourage anyone who has recommendations for additions to send me a PM and I will gladly consider it.

Someone sent me a PM with all the more recent firmware updates and somehow I lost that PM, so whoever sent it please do so again!

Thanks.

over at the video processor forum some one confirms it does YCbCr 4:4:4 over HDMI 480i, when the HDMI Color Adju is "Standard".


What about when HMDI color adjust is set to Enhanced? Member csundbom reports that Standard setting prevents output of any values lower than 16 or higher than 235 over HDMI based on measurements he did with Avia Pro.

What about when HMDI color adjust is set to Enhanced? Member csundbom reports that Standard setting prevents output of any values lower than 16 or higher than 235 over HDMI based on measurements he did with Avia Pro.
True, but remember that I tested RGB over HDMI only, not YCbCr.

Rob, I sent two PMs on 04/01/05 without response suggesting a direct link to

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Setting Black levels (and contrast) post# 348 by Bob Pariseau. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5132540&&#post5132540)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Otherwise, it is very cumbersome to navigate and locate. BTW, it appears on page 12 for my monitor, not page 18.

P.S. Thanks for doing a thankless job. No good deed goes unpunished. ;)

Thanks radar. Good point about the page number. I'll fix that.

You're welcome, Rob. Thanks.

I have a question for Carl Sundbom, if he'd be so kind to bother :).
I am using your settings to avoid white and black crush, and they work beautifully. So thanks a lot Carl.
Question concerns the IRE setting at 7.5 instead of 0. Isn't there any dynamics compression when setting it up this way?
What would the black level have to be (one to the left or middle or one to the right...) to output black at 16 with the IRE setting on 0? Just so I can fiddle some more with this machine:)

I have a question for Carl Sundbom, if he'd be so kind to bother :).
I am using your settings to avoid white and black crush, and they work beautifully. So thanks a lot Carl.
Question concerns the IRE setting at 7.5 instead of 0. Isn't there any dynamics compression when setting it up this way?
What would the black level have to be (one to the left or middle or one to the right...) to output black at 16 with the IRE setting on 0? Just so I can fiddle some more with this machine:)
Actually, there is compression the other way around. If you leave IRE at 0, 16 (and anything below 16 naturally) on the DVD comes out as 1-3 over HDMI. Raising the black level setting in the 59Avi all the way up gets it to around 10-11, but not close to 16. I detailed all the tests I did in some rambling posts months ago, so look there for more details. Keep on fiddling!

EDIT: I noticed that my test ramblings have been added to the first post of the thread, so you can look there.

Carl,
I even printed your settings out :D that's how good they are, especially for the white level. I was finally able to calibrate whiter than white, and those skies and cumulonimbus' look totally natural on my system now. There was now way to do that before.
I am thinking that black level might be a tad low though (rather the lower blacks too tight), even though I find no setting where blacks look better.
That's why I was wondering about dynamics compression with 7.5 IRE. I'll try this weekend with 0IRE and black level all the way up and see what it does, even if I am not raising my hopes, given the measurements you have made.
Thanks again for your work, it's brought up some settings that were absolutely impossible for me to find by myself. Bravo.

Bob,
I called Pioneer and spoke with an engineer a couple of weeks ago and he stated to me that the stereo analog l/r was of a bit higher quality in the analog stage then the multi channel l/r..somthing about it doesnt go through as much electronics as the multi-channel l/r does (he wasnt sure so I guess he could have been wrong?)..Im not really sure what the exact differences are but I dont think they would have put them there for no reason..I know on some other units that the seperate stereo l/r that the manufacturer actually uses higher quality parts ..not sure about the 59avi ..

If you want to measure this objectively, pass the same signal out of the two different sets of outputs, and into a digital recorder (e.g. soundcard) digitizing it both times (at, say, 16 bit/44.1 kHz for CD sources; theoretically you might want to use higher settings for SACD or DVD-A) . Then you can use something like Audacity or Cool Edit/Audition to compare the resulting .wav files. When you do this you may find that some player settings only affect one set of outputs. Or that some settings only affect CD but not SACD, for example. By doing this with my DV-45a, I found (for example) that leaving the channel levels at 'default ' -- equivalent to a 6 dB boost all around -- actually causes clipping at the output. I hope this isn't the case for the 59.



One other thing, call me crazy but I swear I hear a significant difference for the better when switching the 59avi into "pure audio mode"..however I assume that this mode cant be used when using the i-link connection ? because it turns off all the digital connections, led/display etc ..So I assume it turns off the i-link as well ? ..If this is the case it may be another reason why somebody may not want to run through the i-link

Well, in pure audio, you are bypassing all settings -- channel levels, speaker distances, speaker sizes. I doubt pure audio 'turns off' ilink -- ilink probably outputs 'purest audio' all the time.-- that is, the raw data from the disc, directly to an outboard DAC, without any processing in the player. Your player is really just a transport for audio, when using any digital connection for audio

I posted this in the Projector forum, but thought I'd ask here as well in case there's something on the DVD player side that I'm missing:

I purchased a Panny AE700 in November of 2004. Like most people, when using HDMI, I was getting the white flashes (but otherwise it looked great), so I stopped using HDMI and only used Component.

I knew I had 1 year to send it in and kept putting it off. Finally I called them in November and received a work order number to correct the white flash problem. Again, I put off sending it in, because I didn't want to be without it.

They finally called me 2 weeks ago and told me that my work order was about to expire and if I wanted the white flash issue fixed to send it in.

So I did.

I got the projector back 2 days ago and finally set it back up this afternoon.

The problem now, is that I'm getting NO picture over the HDMI input. The component looks great, but nothing at all on HDMI. Actually, I shouldn't say nothing at all because it's all snow. 100% multi-colored snow.

When I pick other inputs (like PC) that aren't connected, I just get a blue screen, but with HDMI it's snow.

The HDMI light on my DVD player (pioneer elite 59-avi) is solid blue, which means a signal transfer is taking place (if I unplug the HDMI from the projector, for example, the blue light on the DVD player blinks), but still no picture.

Now, it's been about 1 year since I've used the HDMI, so maybe I'm forgetting something stupid, but any ideas why I can't get a picture?

Did you ever consider the HDMI cable is making all this problem for you ? Try a better brand cable, especially if you are running a 10M length or above.

I'm not sure what you call white flashes, but some cables caused sparklies, actually multi-colored flashes on my projector. Another cable might help you there.

As for the snowstorm, I get that when the cable looses the connection. Wiggling it a bit puts everything alright again.

A few tidbits:

I'm fairly sure (at I've seen no mention here) that no DVD player outputs 12bit YCbCr 4:2:2 via HDMI. Pio makes a big deal of 10bit video output in the 79avi. Also, I think the 79avi has a 12bit component output option. However I think that's a translation issue to mean YCbCr 4:2:2. Over hdmi, each YCbCr component is actually sent as 12bits, but 8bit and 10bit video just has the unused bits as zeros. (see below).

I'm fairly sure RGB has to be 4:4:4 - same number of samples of r, g, and b. It's pretty much defined to be this way (I've never seen it described any other way), unlike YCbCr 4:2:2 where there is twice as many luma samples as chroma. This is why you can do 10 and 12bit YCbCr with HDMI. 24bits of video data is sent in one clock period. So RGB has 3 8bit components sent each time, but YCbCr has one clock period of luma (12bits total) and half the chroma bits (12bits total) and the next clock period has luma and the other half of the chroma bits.

larry

I fiddled some more with Carl Sundbom's settings.
Setting 0IRE and "enhanced" color, white level to minimum and black level to maximum solves my 'tight blacks' problem, the lower greyscale seems a bit wider.
But Carl is right: there is some dynamics compression down to 11IRE, everything from below 16 down to 12 IRE has the same value and level.
On the other hand, as I'm not really seeing these values after calibration, and as the above 16IRE blacks seem to get more 'room', I might be keeping this setting.
A weird thing is that 'enhanced' colorspace is quite different from the 'standard' one. There is more saturation, especially on reds, more 'three-dimensionality'.I wonder if one setting is outputting RGB and the other YCbCr?

My 59avi will pass either YCbCr or RGB over HDMI to the my IScan VP30. I am using 480i over HDMI from the 59 to the VP30. If you set the "HDMI Color Adjust" parameter on the 59avi to 'Standard' you get YCbCr 4:4:4 out. If you set it to 'Enhanced' you get RGB out.

Mike

My 59avi will pass either YCbCr or RGB over HDMI to the my IScan VP30. I am using 480i over HDMI from the 59 to the VP30. If you set the "HDMI Color Adjust" parameter on the 59avi to 'Standard' you get YCbCr 4:4:4 out. If you set it to 'Enhanced' you get RGB out.

Mike Ok. That's interesting. YCbCr 4:4:4 is 8bit video and so is RGB. It appears that the 59avi outputs 8bit video via HDMI which explains why they were touting the 10bit video output in the 79avi marketing literature.

larry

Did you ever consider the HDMI cable is making all this problem for you ? Try a better brand cable, especially if you are running a 10M length or above.

It's a possibility, but it worked fine before I sent the projector in. It's a BlueJean Cable.

I'm not sure what you call white flashes, but some cables caused sparklies, actually multi-colored flashes on my projector. Another cable might help you there.


White flashes are a known problem with the Panny AE700 Projector when utilizing HDMI, hence the warranty work.


As for the snowstorm, I get that when the cable looses the connection. Wiggling it a bit puts everything alright again.

I tried wiggling and re-checking the connections to no avail. If it was a bad connection though, wouldn't the HDMI light on the 59avi blink? It doesn't blink, it stays illuminated.

I think it's probably an issue with the projector, but I just want to make sure I'm not forgetting some setting or something that I have to enable to use the HDMI on the DVD player.

How you know it is YCbCr n RGB ? Did your VP30 display it when you are switching between the two ? Also, which one will be more suitable for a 1280x720 LCD projector, like Sony HS60. Thanks.

My 59avi will pass either YCbCr or RGB over HDMI to the my IScan VP30. I am using 480i over HDMI from the 59 to the VP30. If you set the "HDMI Color Adjust" parameter on the 59avi to 'Standard' you get YCbCr 4:4:4 out. If you set it to 'Enhanced' you get RGB out.

Mike

[QUOTE=Stew4msu]It's a possibility, but it worked fine before I sent the projector in. It's a BlueJean Cable.

I thought you said you had the HDMI problem already before sending it in.


]

[QUOTE=Stew4msu]It's a possibility, but it worked fine before I sent the projector in. It's a BlueJean Cable.

I thought you said you had the HDMI problem already before sending it in.


]

Nope.

The HDMI worked perfectly except for the white flash* problem which is a known issue with the Panny AE700 projector. The white flash issue has nothing to do with the cable or the DVD player.



*the white flash issue produces a very quick white flash on the screen about once every 45 minutes when using the HDMI on this projector. A software upgrade from Panasonic cures the problem.

I have this combo (Sharp XV-Z12000 with 59AVi) and can not get the DVI input to work with the HDMI output on the DVD player. It worked for about 30 seconds and then went to nothing but snow. The Sharp manual says you need to set the Input Signal, but does not explain how to set it for DVD video. It has setting for PC-RGB, PC-Component, etc. What do you use? Have you had issues with this combo before? How have you fixed them?

Hi All,

I recently bought the Denon 2910 to pair with my 32 inch Sony XBR LCD via HDMI. The picture looks fantastic. However, at certain scenes although the picture of the main object was exceptionally detailed and clear, the background seemed to be a little problematic. I noticed some graininess and artifacts on the background. Is this macroblocking that people have talked about? I believe that my Sony LCD is not susceptible to MB with the Denon 2910. Am I totally wrong?

I then went back to the local store and saw the Pioneer 59avi. It was the only one left. The store wanted to sell it to me as a floor sample. The store owner told me that I would not have the original 2-year warranty on it because the warranty was already filled out by the previous owner; hence, I would have to buy the extended warranty if I want to be safe. Additionally, there was no box or manual. The guy told me that he would sell it to me at a 20% discount. Please help me answer the following questions regarding this 59avi:

(1) Will this DVD player give me a better PQ than the Denon 2910? Audio is not my main concern, since video quality is my top concern.

(2) Is 20% discount a bargain? In fairness, after I told the store owner that at 20% discount, it seemed a little too high considering the lack of original Elite warranty, the box and the manual, the guy asked me to make him an offer. I would like to consult with you guys first ...

Thanks,

Jen

Does the 59avi convert between NTSC and PAL? Thanks. Jen

Hi All,

(2) Is 20% discount a bargain? In fairness, after I told the store owner that at 20% discount, it seemed a little too high considering the lack of original Elite warranty, the box and the manual, the guy asked me to make him an offer. I would like to consult with you guys first ...

Thanks,

Jen

With no Warranty then 20% discount (from MSRP) is not enough IMHO.

Used 59AVi's can be had for around 600USD or less at the moment (there are 2 on audiogon right now around that price).

The manual can be downloaded from Pioneers website.

If you make him an offer make sure he includes the iLink cable which definately comes with the unit.

59 warranty is transferable you just need the original receipt from an authorized dealer for balance of warranty.

If you make him an offer make sure he includes the iLink cable which definately comes with the unit.

I don't think I got an i-link cable in my new unit about a year ago, but I don't use i-link, so it might be sitting in the box. Are you sure they provide a cable?

Doug

(1) Will this DVD player give me a better PQ than the Denon 2910? Audio is not my main concern, since video quality is my top concern.

yes. definitely. a lot of ppl confirmed this, not only in this forum.


(2) Is 20% discount a bargain?

20% from MSRP ? definitely not ! That guy is BS'ing you! Even 2 yrs ago it could already be had at less than that. I can't say the street price here, but it has to be MUCh MUCH less than that.

I don't think I got an i-link cable in my new unit about a year ago, but I don't use i-link, so it might be sitting in the box. Are you sure they provide a cable?

Doug

Doug - check in the box - it will be buried in there somewhere. It is definately sold with the unit. Check the last page of your Manual under Accessories - those come with unit.

Thanks, Paul. If I ever get an i-link compatible AVR (currently, I'm happy w/ my Marantz 7400), I'll look for it.

Doug

Thanks for the prompt replies.

(1) I realize that price discussing is not permitted here. However, since this is a used one, my interpretation of the rules is that it's all right to provide the acceptable range of the price for the players with similar conditions. If and only if it's all right, please provide me with the range so that I can be more equipped in dealing with the store owner.

(2) Does this player have an internal PAL <-> NTSC conversion? After searching this forum, I found out that this player (and its replacement - 79avi - plays PAL disks, but there is no information whether it will internally convert the PAL signal into the NTSC one, so that my NTSC display can receive and output the signal.

(3) The store owner also informed me that I could get the 79avi at the price of the 59avi. I was so tempted to get the 79avi, thinking that it was a new and improved version of the 59avi, until I ran into the 54 pages of discussion of the 79avi regarding flying wedge pattern flaw. Please let me know if it's worth it to go with the 79avi?

Please advise.

Thanks,

Jen.

Thanks for the prompt replies.

(1) I realize that price discussing is not permitted here. However, since this is a used one, my interpretation of the rules is that it's all right to provide the acceptable range of the price for the players with similar conditions. If and only if it's all right, please provide me with the range so that I can be more equipped in dealing with the store owner.

(2) Does this player have an internal PAL <-> NTSC conversion? After searching this forum, I found out that this player (and its replacement - 79avi - plays PAL disks, but there is no information whether it will internally convert the PAL signal into the NTSC one, so that my NTSC display can receive and output the signal.

(3) The store owner also informed me that I could get the 79avi at the price of the 59avi. I was so tempted to get the 79avi, thinking that it was a new and improved version of the 59avi, until I ran into the 54 pages of discussion of the 79avi regarding flying wedge pattern flaw. Please let me know if it's worth it to go with the 79avi?


Please advise.

Thanks,

Jen.

I had a 59avi then replaced it with the 79avi, I would say the two are very comparable. As far as the problems the 79avi had when tested by Kris Deering I have had no problems related to picture quality in real world viewing. I have been very happy with the 79avi with both video and audio as well. It sounds like you can get the 79avi for a great price, thats the way I would go.

Bill

XBR32

Get the 79 and forget about the problems that only happens with test pattern disks. In the real world nobody has so far pointed to a single case of failure and even the famous Gladiator coliseum scene can be solved with a simple change in the motion settings. BTW, I had 3 other players , different brands and all failed the Gladiator scene. The 79 with a good DVD (new Titanic or Walking the Line) will produce an upconverted picture very close to true HD. My wife thinks the picture is better than some of the HD-LITE that we get from Directv and I guess she is right.

Sergio

According to Secret's tests, the 79AVi is simply just not as good of a video player as the 59AVi is. And since you can get a 59AVi for a much cheaper price...

If you use the *analog* audio outputs however, the audio from the 79 is probably improved. But most people for CD and DVDs use coax or optical digital anyway. No difference is likely in that case.



On a different note :), I finally put in Carl's settings and Avia'ed my setup (59AVi to a Panasonic 37pwd8uk via HDMI). I thought it was interesting that there was a fairly small range of brightness and contrast where I could get both the white moving bars from the one test pattern, and the black moving bars from the other test pattern to display properly. But the final picture? In-freaking-credible. :) I held off getting the Panny plasma for the longest time, paranoid that I wouldn't be able to get as good a picture as the 32" Toshiba HDTV-capable CRT that I had. The blacks of the plasma are not quite as good as from the Toshiba, but the increase in size of the picture more than makes up for that.

According to Secret's tests, the 79AVi is simply just not as good of a video player as the 59AVi is. And since you can get a 59AVi for a much cheaper price...

.

Is not as good in reference to tests with calibration/test DVDs or everyday viewing? Yes you can get the 59avi cheaper but in everyday viewing I would say the two are very close in video performance. I have had both and although I am far from a videophile I can honestly say on my 42" Panasonic plasma I would not say one was better than the other. But to say the 79avi is simply not as good a video player is not correct IMO.

I am yet to see so many people trying so hard to find a problem "in the real world" that was detected during one of the cadence tests done by Kris. You can read 100's of posts and the only reference is that famous Gladiator scene which is well known to cause artifacts in almost all other players. The 79 with the right settings passed the same test but then we have people saying that it should pass with the default settings, like changing settings was some kind of cheatting (give me a break!). You can find unhappy people even with the most expensive Denon flagship but 99% of the 79 owners are VERY happy with the picture and sound.

I am pretty sure that the 59 is basically the same player and therefore very close in quality but to say that it's better than the 79 because it failed a test (without changing settings), that can't be visible with any DVD so far ,is ridiculous.

I have absolutely nothing against Kris or the Secret's test but opinions of hundreds of owners should also be taken in consideration.

For the money there is no better player than the 59 or the 79. If sound is important the 79 should be a bit better .

Sergio

Sheez. We've had the same discussion in the 79AVi thread, and now it's here in the "59Avi Owners Thread". :)

Y'all can legitimately say that the 79AVi's video performance approaches that of the 59AVi, but it is not better. You can argue about "real world" observations all you want. But go read the reviews for each machine at Secret's web site. I thought Kris did a very good job himself comparing the two machines. If the 79AVi was a better video machine than the 59AVi, I would have one. In fact, I am still waiting to see if there's any response from Pioneer to Kris' tests. But for right now, if you want the best video performance from a universal player from Pioneer, "real world" or with test patterns :), it's the 59AVi.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=0&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=0&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0#Pioneer%20EliteDV-59AVi%20(HDMI)
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=0&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0#Pioneer%20EliteDV-79AVi%20Universal%20DVD%20Player%20(HDMI)

And what I think is truly enlightening, is to compare where the two machines fall compared to all the other players that they've tesed. Plus, add the fact that the 79Avi is a 2 year newer design, and yet its video quality in spite of those additional 2 years of development, learning, and progress, is actually a small step backward.

Sheez. We've had the same discussion in the 79AVi thread, and now it's here in the "59Avi Owners Thread". :)

Y'all can legitimately say that the 79AVi's video performance approaches that of the 59AVi, but it is not better. You can argue about "real world" observations all you want. But go read the reviews for each machine at Secret's web site. I thought Kris did a very good job himself comparing the two machines. If the 79AVi was a better video machine than the 59AVi, I would have one. In fact, I am still waiting to see if there's any response from Pioneer to Kris' tests. But for right now, if you want the best video performance from a universal player from Pioneer, "real world" or with test patterns :), it's the 59AVi.

And what I think is truly enlightening, is to compare where the two machines fall compared to all the other players that they've tesed. Plus, add the fact that the 79Avi is a 2 year newer design, and yet its video quality in spite of those additional 2 years of development, learning, and progress, is actually a small step backward.

Yes we did have the same discussion on the 79avi thread but it was you who bought it up again in this thread. You are giving your opinion and I am giving mine. I also believe XRB32 was asking for opinions on the 79avi, so as a 79avi owner thought I would give mine. I have seen mention many times that reviews such as those by Kris Deering at Secrets as a starting point to provide information on a specfic component but that actual hands on experience with that component to be the real test.

All your thoughts of the 79avi are based on the Secrets review no others, as I have asked you before have you had any experience with this player in your HT? You also seem to miss the many positive posts by 79avi owners who are very happy with this player with both video and audio performance. Yes I would have been pleased if the 79avi did better on the Secrets tests but throw out that review and what you have is a lot of happy 79avi owners including myself.

Bill

From all that I have read about both players and seen of the 59avi, if you have an 8bit display, the 59avi is probably the better "buy". 10bit display? I'd definitely check out the 79avi for it's 10bit video capability.

larry

Larry, a bit off-topic but how do we know if a display is 8 or 10 bits? Is my Mitsubishi 73927 8 or 10 bits?

Thanks

Sergio

Well for one, the number of colors it can generate: 8bit x 3 color components = 24bits = 16.8 million, 10bits x 3 = 30bits = ~1 billion. If they claim 12bit video processing, then there's a chance they accept 10bit video. N.B. For digital input you have to have HDMI and use YCbCr, not RGB.

larry

Thanks , Larry. I still can't find any info on my Mitsu regarding 8,10 or 12 bit processing. The specs never mention anything like that. Sorry , I know I am way off-topic now.

Sergio

According to Secret's tests, the 79AVi is simply just not as good of a video player as the 59AVi is. And since you can get a 59AVi for a much cheaper price...

If you use the *analog* audio outputs however, the audio from the 79 is probably improved. But most people for CD and DVDs use coax or optical digital anyway. No difference is likely in that case.



On a different note :), I finally put in Carl's settings and Avia'ed my setup (59AVi to a Panasonic 37pwd8uk via HDMI). I thought it was interesting that there was a fairly small range of brightness and contrast where I could get both the white moving bars from the one test pattern, and the black moving bars from the other test pattern to display properly. But the final picture? In-freaking-credible. :) I held off getting the Panny plasma for the longest time, paranoid that I wouldn't be able to get as good a picture as the 32" Toshiba HDTV-capable CRT that I had. The blacks of the plasma are not quite as good as from the Toshiba, but the increase in size of the picture more than makes up for that.


The "problem" with the 59 is that to get the whole dynamic range you need to enable "color enhanced", and so RGB, while the "standard" setting, YCbCr, compresses the grayscale. As at some point the signal will have to be RGB anyway, this is not really dramatic.

Going from there I tweaked Carl's settings a bit, and found two interesting settings. One is Carl's with black at 7.5 IRE. Works beautifully. :)

The other is black at 0IRE, white level all the way down and black level all the way up. This does compress btb 12-15 to 11, so you're loosing some btb gradations. On the other hand you're getting more dynamics in the grayscale, and the resulting picture is less flat and dull and more 3-d. The differences are so subtle though that you only notice them in direct comparison. I'm not noticing any loss in btb detail, other than on test pictures.

I'm staying with the 0IRE setting for now and let it sink in, before deciding wich one is better.

The fact is though that the 59avis standard settings are not passing the signal properly, and that you have to tweak it. There goes the comparison with the 79avi. :D

The other is black at 0IRE, white level all the way down and black level all the way up. This does compress btb 12-15 to 11, so you're loosing some btb gradations. How did you determine this?

larry

Carl confirmed it here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7187763&&#post7187763
Credit where credit's due. :)
And I can see on test screens that btb between 15 and 12 looks the same.

All your thoughts of the 79avi are based on the Secrets review no others, as I have asked you before have you had any experience with this player in your HT?

And like I mentioned in the 79AVi thread, Kris is the expert, I am not, so I trust his judgement. Secret's tests are a quantified measure of video performance. Some people put a lot of faith in them. Some don't. I do. But why, now, would anyone get a 79AVi when you can spend less money but get better video performance?

You might think I'm coming down hard against the 79AVi, and in a way, I am. It is supposed to be a better player than the 59AVi. It's not. Shoot, if they hadn't messed with the video circuitry at all, and just added on the more robust build quality for audio, *that* would have made for a nice machine. But they didn't. It's not even *as good* a video player. I don't understand how Pioneer *worsens* an existing product, and then puts it out for sale as "new and improved." I wanted the 79AVi to be the "last, best," standard definition DVD player from Pioneer. 'T'ain't.

Ourdall- Yes. :) And how do we know the 79AVi doesn't have any problems with its standard settings too? Oh wait: we do! :) Kris mentions the "tweak" for the 79AVi and the Slow Progressive Motion setting in his review.

And remember, in spite of what Carl and you found out about the 59AVi, subjecting both machines to the exact *same* tests, Kris got the test results that he did with the 59AVi and the 79AVi.

In fact, because essentially now that Carl has "ISF'ed" the 59AVi, I'm personally convinced that we can now get the best picture possible with this machine. I'm not sure that can be said yet with the 79AVi. And that gives a further benefit to the 59AVi.

If *I* had a 79AVi and I was scoping this thread, know what I would do? I'd ask Carl or Ourdall, hey, if I send this player to you, could you take a look at the black/white/grey dynamic range thing the same way you've looked at the 59AVi? That way, you could be assured that you'd be getting the best picture out of that machine too.

I do need to try your settings too, btw. :)

If *I* had a 79AVi and I was scoping this thread, know what I would do? I'd ask Carl or Ourdall, hey, if I send this player to you, could you take a look at the black/white/grey dynamic range thing the same way you've looked at the 59AVi? That way, you could be assured that you'd be getting the best picture out of that machine too.

I do need to try your settings too, btw. :)
LOL. Really, all you have to do is put in Carl's numbers, they are on the first page of this thread.
Then you can fiddle and tweak and turn those knobs and never, ever leave your hands off the machinery. :D
There is a "tweak or watch" poll going on in the projector's forums. We should port that one over here ;) .

just for the record, the 59 also fails those"real life" cases that the 79 failed. And I believe Kris didn't test the rotating wedge clip with the 59, so it's unknown whether the 59 is "better". I had both the 59/79 for a brief period and at least on my setup ( a 10ft wide screen) the 79 is marginally better at HDMI output. The deinterlacer is slightly different on the chroma channel that's for sure. On DVE mpeg test clip the difference is obvious, although on real material it's very tough to tell. I finally keep the 59 not because it's better, simply because it's half the price for me (and also because I'm only going to use it purely as a transport). If I'm buying a player now and if in this market the price diff between the 79 and 59 is not that big, I will pick the 79 any time.
I have great respect to the ppl in Secrets, but there are always some items that cannot be objectively measured. For example the color "style" between the pioneer and the denon are very different. Both I and my wife do not like the Denon 3910's colors, whether it deinterlaces it corretly or not. For me the weak point of Pio is on those Disney titles. Always has some kind of haziness (on a big screen). The 79 for sure improves on this.

Dude, there are some *additional* tests that he did run on the 79AVi. But for the web site score, those are all the same, exact, identical tests on *all* the players listed.

BTW, colors can be perfectly 100% quanitifed with the triangle color spectrum measurement and graph that some reviewers do.

Ourdall- The 79AVi is *not* the same player that the 59AVi is. So no one knows at this point if Carl's numbers are as valid for the 79AVi as they are for the 59AVi.

For those of you who seem to want to ... diminish ... the importance or validity of Secret's methodology and their test results, that's fine. Secret's reviews are just a tool for helping us decide between players. But I really wonder what tune you'd be singing if the 79AVi had actually done better than the 59AVi...

Ourdall- The 79AVi is *not* the same player that the 59AVi is. So no one knows at this point if Carl's numbers are as valid for the 79AVi as they are for the 59AVi.

No it's not, and I didn't read your sentence as I should have, sorry. I'm just seeing "59" everywhere....need a rest...
What has to be done though is read the black and white values as they are output by the player, as Carl has done. Wich is not an obvious step to make, it didn't occur to anyone even on this thread, and the Secrets tests nowhere make a mention of it either, so I'm not sure they are testing for this.
On a sidenote, it could not be done by just calibrating the player, you do need hard numbers: after all it seems the 59 does pass btb even in "standard" setting, but it does so by compressing the grayscale, wich you just won't notice unless you're measuring the output. So, I'm quite happy Carl had a hand in this.
But frankly, this is a bug or at least shoddy engineering, and Pioneer should not have let it pass, and maybe they didn't on the 79avi. At least, there is a way around it, so...

Dude, there are some *additional* tests that he did run on the 79AVi. But for the web site score, those are all the same, exact, identical tests on *all* the players listed.

BTW, colors can be perfectly 100% quanitifed with the triangle color spectrum measurement and graph that some reviewers do.

Ourdall- The 79AVi is *not* the same player that the 59AVi is. So no one knows at this point if Carl's numbers are as valid for the 79AVi as they are for the 59AVi.

For those of you who seem to want to ... diminish ... the importance or validity of Secret's methodology and their test results, that's fine. Secret's reviews are just a tool for helping us decide between players. But I really wonder what tune you'd be singing if the 79AVi had actually done better than the 59AVi...

As you said in a earlier post "If I had the 79avi..." well apparently you do not and you also have not answered if you have ever actually viewed this player. Again your only basis you have about the performance of the 79avi is Kris' tests at Secrets. I have the utmost respect for Kris and his work but I am not going to base my HT purchases on test results I have read.

Maybe if you had viewed this player or actually used it in your HT I would respect your opinion of the 79avi but I do not as again it is based on one series of tests done by Kris. Apparently you still ignore the positive postings by actual 79avi owners and dismiss our opinions. The only positive thing for me if the 79avi did better in the Secrets tests is that you would have to dig a little deeper to trash this player. So my tune is still the same that I am enjoying this player very much, regardless of how calibration/test discs look on it. The real question is what tune you would be singing if the results were better? I know its only a DVD player but.....

Bill

You keep arguing in circles. *If* the 79AVi *had* done better in Secret's testing, better than the 59AVi, I would have bought one, and this "discussion" would not exist. You don't seem to get that I *wanted* the 79AVi to be my last SD player. I am frustrated and disappointed that it didn't test that well. *That's* why I am still waiting to see if there's any response from Pioneer. But that's *also* why I keep questioning people considering this player when there are better players out there for less money. ... The 59AVi being a prime candidate. ;)

I have previously owned the following Pio players: 414, 333, 05, 45a, 47Ai, and now the 59AVi. In each of *those* cases, video performance was improved from generation to generation. (Some of the improvements, even I as an admitted non-expert could see. :) ) But dang man! The 79AVi is not even *as good as* the 59AVi in terms of video performance.

I have said it before, and allow me to repeat it one more time: *I* am not an expert on video performance in DVD players. Kris is. I trust his judgement. As for all the 79AVi *owners* who have posted positive comments? I know of at least two of them who later got rid of the player for something else. Plus, hmmm, none of them have the credentials that Kris does in terms of adequately quantifying the performance of a player. How many people have compared the two players without even Avia'ing each? How many have tried to compare the two players in a (ahem) dealer's showroom? Secret's testing methodology has been around for years, and quite a few people use it as a tool in terms of making a decision on what player to purchase. You don't. That's fine. I get that. But don't dismiss or try to diminish the value of their methodology and the results that they get.

Carl confirmed it here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7187763&&#post7187763
Credit where credit's due. :)
And I can see on test screens that btb between 15 and 12 looks the same.
Oh, ok. I didn't remember the 0 <-> 7.5 option switching between PC and studio RGB levels which would explain 16 and below going to almost 0.

larry

I hope this is something simple I've overlooked, but......

I'd like to disable the HDMI audio on my 969avi.
I have the 969 HDMI direct to a Samsung DLP, and the audio via an AVR on coax & 5.1 analogue.
Currently, when I play a DVD, I have to turn the sound down on the Sammy. I can't see a use in my present setup to have audio on the HDMI.

Any suggestions?

JEL: The Sammy has an 'internal mute' that you can choose to mute its speakers.

Thanks Bill. Is that the option in the audio setup menu?

The problem with that is it turns off all audio, ie it's not input specific.

JEL: I don't have my Sammy anymore (swapped for a Mits 73727), but yes, I presume it is in the audio setup menu. And yes also, it is not input specific. But I send the audio from my cable stb and that from my dvd player to the AVR (and a surround speaker system) via digital cables, and thus always want the tv's speakers muted.

When I first hooked up HDMI, it replaced component video in my setup. When I heard the audio from the DVD coming from my plasma's speakers, I couldn't figure out what was going on! Took me a while to remember, that yup, HDMI carries audio too. :)

I hope this is something simple I've overlooked, but......

I'd like to disable the HDMI audio on my 969avi.
I have the 969 HDMI direct to a Samsung DLP, and the audio via an AVR on coax & 5.1 analogue.
Currently, when I play a DVD, I have to turn the sound down on the Sammy. I can't see a use in my present setup to have audio on the HDMI.

Any suggestions?

put a DVI adapter in the middle to "filter out" the audio part.

put a DVI adapter in the middle to "filter out" the audio part.
the thought had crossed my mind, but it seemed like a messy way of doing things. I was hoping there was some obscure setting somewhere, either at the player or the display.

put a DVI adapter in the middle to "filter out" the audio part.
That probably won't do it. DVI and HDMI cables are just that, cables. The adaptors are passive. DVI and HDMI transport data the same way. I'm assuming you mean use 2 adaptors to still have HDMI on each end. The HDMI handshaking is still done and the player will know that HDMI is on the other end. If the TV has a DVI input, no audio will be sent. I assume there isn't a DVI input on the TV. The only way that it may work is if HDMI has some extra pin/signal on the cable unrelated to TMDS that the adaptors will not "connect". I don't think this is the case, however.

larry

larry : I suspect you're right, though I don't know how the signal transfer is done in HDMI & DVI. I guess it makes sense if the audio & video are on the same data stream.

I'm thinking of buying a Pioneer 59Avi -- the online prices just keep dropping.

How much better is the player than the Panasonic XP-30? Anyone ever compare the two? However, I would be using the player for upconverting (CRT RPTV) to make scanlines invisible and makes the image a bit smoother.

Hey Guys,
When I play DVD-Audio through my Pio Elite DV59AVi (connected to my 74TXVi with HDMI and iLink) my recevier reads that it is playing DVD-A 96KHz but I do not get any on screen menus. I only ask because when I first put this DVD-Audio in (Bethoven's 1st and 2nd symphonys) my DVD player said menu on the front display but nothing was coming up on the screen. I had to hit stop and then play to get it to begin.
So simply put, does video get passed through HDMI while DVD-Audio is playing through iLink and will the 74TXVi handle both signals properly at the same time? Thanks guys.
-Evangelo2

Hey Guys,
When I play DVD-Audio through my Pio Elite DV59AVi (connected to my 74TXVi with HDMI and iLink) my recevier reads that it is playing DVD-A 96KHz but I do not get any on screen menus. I only ask because when I first put this DVD-Audio in (Bethoven's 1st and 2nd symphonys) my DVD player said menu on the front display but nothing was coming up on the screen. I had to hit stop and then play to get it to begin.
So simply put, does video get passed through HDMI while DVD-Audio is playing through iLink and will the 74TXVi handle both signals properly at the same time? Thanks guys.
-Evangelo2

With my 79 there is an option to show or not video when playing DVD-A. Check your initial setup options.

Sergio

Hey Guys,
When I play DVD-Audio through my Pio Elite DV59AVi (connected to my 74TXVi with HDMI and iLink) my recevier reads that it is playing DVD-A 96KHz but I do not get any on screen menus. I only ask because when I first put this DVD-Audio in (Bethoven's 1st and 2nd symphonys) my DVD player said menu on the front display but nothing was coming up on the screen. I had to hit stop and then play to get it to begin.
So simply put, does video get passed through HDMI while DVD-Audio is playing through iLink and will the 74TXVi handle both signals properly at the same time? Thanks guys.
-Evangelo2

I made the following mistake the other day and had to chuckle when I realized why I wasn't getting the DVD-A screen. I had turned on the Direct button to get the best audio. Of course, the Direct button shuts off all video circuitry. Maybe you did the same thing?

Doug

I made the following mistake the other day and had to chuckle when I realized why I wasn't getting the DVD-A screen. I had turned on the Direct button to get the best audio. Of course, the Direct button shuts off all video circuitry. Maybe you did the same thing?

Doug

I definitely have to check this as I may have Direct selected as well. I also found an old post in this thread at the top of Page 20 that says the same thing about Direct.

-Evangelo2

That probably won't do it. DVI and HDMI cables are just that, cables. The adaptors are passive. DVI and HDMI transport data the same way. I'm assuming you mean use 2 adaptors to still have HDMI on each end. The HDMI handshaking is still done and the player will know that HDMI is on the other end. If the TV has a DVI input, no audio will be sent. I assume there isn't a DVI input on the TV. The only way that it may work is if HDMI has some extra pin/signal on the cable unrelated to TMDS that the adaptors will not "connect". I don't think this is the case, however.

larry

well in theory it should be, but in reality I dun know for sure. In the video processor forum some one was unable to connect a Denon's HDMI output to a VP's HDMI in, because of the audio setting in the VP somehow "hangs" the denon. By using a HDMI->DVI cable + DVI->HDMI dongle , the connection works. So despite the theory HDMI->DVI->DVI->HDMI == HDMI-HDMI direct, in reality it isn't, at least for some implementation.

well in theory it should be, but in reality I dun know for sure. In the video processor forum some one was unable to connect a Denon's HDMI output to a VP's HDMI in, because of the audio setting in the VP somehow "hangs" the denon. By using a HDMI->DVI cable + DVI->HDMI dongle , the connection works. So despite the theory HDMI->DVI->DVI->HDMI == HDMI-HDMI direct, in reality it isn't, at least for some implementation.This part of my original post could explain it. "The only way that it may work is if HDMI has some extra pin/signal on the cable unrelated to TMDS that the adaptors will not "connect". Or something do that effect. DVI and HDMI transfer video (and audio with HDMI) bits on the wire the exact same way.

larry

How noticable is the CUE with film-based material on this player?

"But dang man! The 79AVi is not even *as good as* the 59AVi in terms of video performance."


I will ask you again have you viewed this player? You for some reason do not want to answer this simple question. To say the 79avi is not as good as the 59avi in terms of video quality is wrong. Again you make this statement as if you spent many hours viewing these two players but you have not. So your statement in regards to the 79avi in my opinion is worthless. You keep bringing up The Secrets tests as your only reference well I feel The Secrets tests are important to some people but actually using and viewing the 79avi to me is more important. If someone buys the 79avi lives with it awhile then decides it is not the player for them I respect that. Not someone that has never viewed it but tries his best to discourage people from buying it.


"As for all the 79AVi *owners* who have posted positive comments?"

What does this *statement* mean?


"I know of at least two of them who later got rid of the player for something else."

I took the time to go through the entire 79avi thread and found at least forty people who have bought the 79avi and are very happy with it and if you like I can list each post number from these happy 79avi owners. And yes I did see the two 79avi owners who *got rid of* one to buy a Onkyo SP-1000 and another to get a 59avi. Both very good players but choices made after at least *viewing* the 79avi.



" Plus, hmmm, none of them have the credentials that Kris does in terms of adequately quantifying the performance of a player."

So what you are saying here that unless any of the happy 79avi owners have the *credentials* that Kris Deering has our opinions on any one component is not of much value?



"But don't dismiss or try to diminish the value of their methodology and the results that they get."[/QUOTE]

In your reference here to The Secrets testing I think you are forgetting about the *methodology* of actually buying a specific component and testing it in your own HT system. I recall Kris remarking that his tests as important and revealing as they are actually having *hands on* experience is just as important.

Bill

(Quotes listed are from Kevin C Brown Post #1563)

You keep arguing in circles. *If* the 79AVi *had* done better in Secret's testing, better than the 59AVi, I would have bought one, and this "discussion" would not exist. You don't seem to get that I *wanted* the 79AVi to be my last SD player. I am frustrated and disappointed that it didn't test that well. *That's* why I am still waiting to see if there's any response from Pioneer. But that's *also* why I keep questioning people considering this player when there are better players out there for less money. ... The 59AVi being a prime candidate. ;)

I have previously owned the following Pio players: 414, 333, 05, 45a, 47Ai, and now the 59AVi. In each of *those* cases, video performance was improved from generation to generation. (Some of the improvements, even I as an admitted non-expert could see. :) ) But dang man! The 79AVi is not even *as good as* the 59AVi in terms of video performance.

I have said it before, and allow me to repeat it one more time: *I* am not an expert on video performance in DVD players. Kris is. I trust his judgement. As for all the 79AVi *owners* who have posted positive comments? I know of at least two of them who later got rid of the player for something else. Plus, hmmm, none of them have the credentials that Kris does in terms of adequately quantifying the performance of a player. How many people have compared the two players without even Avia'ing each? How many have tried to compare the two players in a (ahem) dealer's showroom? Secret's testing methodology has been around for years, and quite a few people use it as a tool in terms of making a decision on what player to purchase. You don't. That's fine. I get that. But don't dismiss or try to diminish the value of their methodology and the results that they get.

Kevin,

100% agree, I've owned an 989 (=UK 79AVi) for a coupel of months and have found Kris's review to be very accurate, basically the deinterlacer just is not up to scratch. Now I can't compare with the 59AVi, but I "upgraded" from a lowly samsung HD935 (Faroudja based) and I have to say the 935's deinterlacing is much better than that in the 79AVi, just a shame it doesn't pass pluge and suffers from bad MBE (and being flakey in other ways!). If I hadn't have primarily bought for 480i/576i HDMI out for use with upcoming scaler purchase I would have returned it to the dealer within a couple of weeks.

I've tried explaining the problems in a couple of threads over on the avforums but some people just seem incable of accepting that there are issues even though the majority have never done a proper back to back comparison.

Cheers,
John.

John:

I have both the 59 and the 79 and find their video similar at least from what I can see on my particular TV set up. The audio is far superior on the 79 again at least in my system. I have not had any flakey issues, maybe I can help if you describe the specific problems you are having with deinterlacing. I have a lot of experience with these two players. Also, I have used an external processor with the 79 and I think you are really going to like this player when you get an external processor. When using this player especially with external processing I just haven't seen any problems.

Hi Rick,

the flakeyness was with respect to the samsung not the pioneer, which seems ok in this respect (other than slightly slow menues). On video quality I think the only thing I've read is that the 59 does a better job that the 79 with vertical motion, although apparently the 79's component out is better, which I would be inclined to beleive as there is very little difference between it and HDMI in my system.

Out of interrest what external processor are you using?

Cheers,
John.

Rick, just to point out that the deinteracling "flaws" reported with the 79ai are not a problem if you output 480i to an external scaler.

John:

I am using a Faroudja DVP 1080 as my external processor and so far really like the 79 and I have the 59 sitting right beside of it and I have done a lot of testing back and forth with three of the popular test discs and regular movies. Both the 59 and 79 are fine. I will sell the 59 because there are things on the video side that I like a lot better on the 79. And. the Audio is better on the 79.

Bill:

Yes, 480i out would not have deinterlacing problems because it is not deinterlaced by the player.

In my test I didn't see problems with the deinterlacing on the 79 through the HDMI output if you set the HDMI detail setting to anything except all the way to the left. There is a brick wall filter at a little over 5MHtz that I think is tripping up the deinterlacing tests that were done by Kris. I PM'd him over a month ago but never heard from him. Anyone who wants to see this put up a high frequency test with vertical lines and watch the high frequency lines just plain disappear when you switch the HDMI detail all the way to the left. Then go on to the HCV test disc and watch the 79 fail about everything. Next, move the HDMI detail anywhere to the right and it will pass everything. I just wonder if Kris set it all the way to the left thinking that it was the default position. This might explain why it fails these tests. And, this is in any deinterlacing mode out of the 79, not with the external processor. When you put the Faroudja DVP 1080 in the system, the DVP 1080 can't correctly deinterlace either if the HDMI detail is set all the way to the left, but move the setting to the right and it sails through everything.

I don't have a test disc with the infamous flying wedge test so I can't determine if this is the reason that the 79 failed this test when Kris did it and I haven't heard from him so I just don't know for sure about this.

For me the CUE is filtered by my external processor and the CR delay on the test discs on the 79 is about the same as the 59. Maybe off by 1/2 a pixel but the 59 is off by maybe 1/4 pixel and I can't see it during regular viewing.

Really, the 79 is fine. I'm selling the 59 even though the 79 technically may not be able to pass every secret test. I really am not biased for the 79. They are really the same picture in my set up even when they are both outputting a deinterlaced signal. There are just a few things I like better with the 79.

Bill Mac- You're too funny. :)

THE 79AVi IS SIMPLY NOT AS GOOD A VIDEO MACHINE AS THE 59AVi.

You can argue you all you want. But Kris's tests are Kris's tests. Allow me to repeat once more: I personally put a lot of weight on Secret's test results. You, obviously don't. Fine for you, not for me. Secret's test methodology is a quantifiable way of looking at the video performance of a DVD player.

Now, please allow me to answer your question, that you've now repeated at least 5 times in 2 different threads:

I will ask you again have you viewed this player?

Yes. I went and spent 20 minutes looking at it in a dealer's showroom the other day, just to make you happy. Both the player and the display had unknown calibration. (But I did change the player to Auto 2, made sure all the other video parameters were centered or at their default settings, and I checked on the plasma to make sure I had the Warm picture, Cinema mode, and all artifical detail adjustments to the off settings.) What did I see? A pretty good picture from a machine that I know I couldn't be happy with because I know it didn't test as well as the 59AVi.

Rick,

I have seen similar improvement by winding up the HDMI detail level, however I haven't been able to get the same level of detail out the 79 as I used to get out of the Faroudja based Samsung without introducing excessive ringing. I also see some pretty bad combing artifacts on the 79 as well at times.

How do you think the results from the 79 (direct to PJ) compare with your scaler?

As you say, I think I'll be quite happy once I get the external processor into my system.

Cheers,
John.

I maybe asking a stupid question here among experts. When you guys are using an external scaler, does it matter (in view of video quality only)if you are using a 59 or 79 as your transport ??? Since both will be sending out unprocessed 480i signal, right ???

I found that the detail in the 59 and 79 to be the same. I just like the HDMI detail setting in the 79 because it is more useful to me because it moves the detail in larger increments. With no detail dialed in on the other detail settings there is no ringing in this player. If you see ringing then the other detail settings are too high or it is in the source DVD.

What I would like to try and convey is that the HDMI detail setting may be causing the deinterlacing errors when set full left HDMI detail(FLHD). FLHD causes high frequency filtering that either makes the high frequency detail break up and results in combing and other detail effects or FLHD just simply trips up the deinterlacing. The 59 does not show this effect because the FLED setting does not filter high frequencies like a brick wall. The 59 does not allow enough filtering in the detail setting to cause these types of errors.

Having said this, I like FLHD setting for some crappy discs. It results in a mosquito reduction effect and this effect looks better on poor discs. The effect is not even close to correct but it is a powerful tool for bad discs. It makes a bad disc look good. But, I never would think of using FLHD for a good disc. It would make a good disc look terrible. The 59 does not have this effect when the HDMI detail is set full left. This is one of the several reasons I like the 79.

And, just so I don't get flamed, I have the 59 and I like it but it doesn't do this and it doesn't seem to give me as rich of colors or depth and it doesn't seem to be as smooth with motion like scrolling credits. And, I can switch back and forth with a HDMI switcher and directly compare on my PJ. For most of these things I have discussed I could not tell the difference between the 59 and the 79 if I couldn't switch back and forth. They are so close that I would say they are the same more than I would like to convey any differences. These observations are not from going to a dealer show room. This was from 2 days wasted over a weekend when everyone was out of the house and I could indulge myself. I won't argue about this because there are so many variables that could make one player look better on one particular display. I suspect that the color depth that I like on the 79 is due to how I have it set up. The 59 just doesn't let me get the depth of color out of my PJ like I can with the 79 If someone can get the 59 to look better on their specific display, I would bet they are right.

OK, enough of that. To answer your question on how the scaler compares to the 79 deinterlacing. The Faroudja DVP1080 is a lot better. Color is better, motion is better, the image is just put together in a smoother way that looks more film like. The deinterlacing is smother. It also looks better on my PJ because I can run 960p or 1080p to the PJ. I love the 480i out of the HDMI direct to the DVP 1080. If you have a big display, you are going to love having an external processor. Ok, the other point of view. In my opinion, if you have a wide screen display that is smaller than 64 inches diagonal and 720p/1080i the deferences are going to be very small. The 59 and the 79 look gorgeous on my Fujitsu 50 plasma. There is not very much improvement when I use the Faroudja processor.

Hope this helps someone.

Bill Mac- You're too funny. :)

THE 79AVi IS SIMPLY NOT AS GOOD A VIDEO MACHINE AS THE 59AVi.

You can argue you all you want. But Kris's tests are Kris's tests. Allow me to repeat once more: I personally put a lot of weight on Secret's test results. You, obviously don't. Fine for you, not for me. Secret's test methodology is a quantifiable way of looking at the video performance of a DVD player.

Now, please allow me to answer your question, that you've now repeated at least 5 times in 2 different threads:



Yes. I went and spent 20 minutes looking at it in a dealer's showroom the other day, just to make you happy. Both the player and the display had unknown calibration. (But I did change the player to Auto 2, made sure all the other video parameters were centered or at their default settings, and I checked on the plasma to make sure I had the Warm picture, Cinema mode, and all artifical detail adjustments to the off settings.) What did I see? A pretty good picture from a machine that I know I couldn't be happy with because I know it didn't test as well as the 59AVi.

Kevin,

Now I am a happy man! I hope you did not have to drive too far as to not take you away from watching calibration discs and rereading The Secrets test results! What dealer was it, I hope you didn't make a scene yelling out *THAT DAMN BILL MAC and SECRETS NOW, SECRETS NOW, SECRETS NOW!*

But I had a few other questions in my last post if you would care to answer when you get a chance. I knew if I kept asking you would just have to take a peek. "A pretty good picture" now that didn't hurt now did it! Now to be serious for a minute as we have found we differ in our opinions as far as the 79avi, I see it as more of a debate than a argument. But I still respect your opinions on this forum even if they are different than mine.

Bill

I maybe asking a stupid question here among experts. When you guys are using an external scaler, does it matter (in view of video quality only)if you are using a 59 or 79 as your transport ??? Since both will be sending out unprocessed 480i signal, right ???

Here is the more technical answer, yes. They both are out-putting a digital signal the has not been deinterlaced. But, Kris would say that the core processing on the 59 is better because of tests the 79 failed that are done during core processing at the level of the MPEG decoder implimentation. He would say that the YC delay and CUE is worse on the 79. The last two problems are resolved in the external processor though.

Here is the fuzzy answer, no. I can't tell much difference between these two players when they are in the 480i HDMI mode going through my Faroudja DVP 1080.

OK, enough of that. To answer your question on how the scaler compares to the 79 deinterlacing. The Faroudja DVP1080 is a lot better. Color is better, motion is better, the image is just put together in a smoother way that looks more film like. The deinterlacing is smother. It also looks better on my PJ because I can run 960p or 1080p to the PJ. I love the 480i out of the HDMI direct to the DVP 1080. If you have a big display, you are going to love having an external processor. Ok, the other point of view. In my opinion, if you have a wide screen display that is smaller than 64 inches diagonal and 720p/1080i the deferences are going to be very small. The 59 and the 79 look gorgeous on my Fujitsu 50 plasma. There is not very much improvement when I use the Faroudja processor.

Hope this helps someone.

Thats pretty much the response I expected given my experience when comparing with the samsung (would have been scratching my head if you hadn't said this). The comment about the image quality on the 50 inch plasma also gels with my experince on my 42 inch plasma, but as you say its a whole different story when go through something (a lot) bigger.

Regards,
John.

I have finished comparing 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE settings. It seems that the main perceptible differences between those settings are due to a 0.5 IRE difference in black level. This can not be calibrated out with the brightness settings, as that one is not subtle enough and seems to work only in 1 IRE increments.
I'm hard pressed to determine if there are otherwise perceptible differences in dynamics, or others, not attributable to the difference in black level. I may be seeing better degradations on PAL discs with the 0 IRE setting.
I might not know what to look for, and don't have the technical equipment to push this further. So, Im closing this particular case and go back to watching movies :)

EDIT: I'm talking about Carl Sundbom's settings, when applied to 0 and 7.5 IRE.

When I had my 59avi and Mits 73727 ISF calibrated, the first thing the guy did was to set IRE at 0 and then go from there.

When I had my 59avi and Mits 73727 ISF calibrated, the first thing the guy did was to set IRE at 0 and then go from there.

I agree. With my 79 and the Mitsu 73927 I could never get the right brightness with the IRE set to 7.5 Zero produces a more solid black and 7.5 always look "milky".

Sergio

Hi Guys!
I am planning to connect 59AVi to 6-channel inputs of Anthem AVM30. AVM30 does BM & TA on 6-channel inputs. How do I set the speaker distances in the player so that it does not interefere with Anthem's TA?
Thanks.

Doesn't matter, they all just have to be the same.

Thanks Kevin!! I will just set everything to 10ft in the player & let Anthem do TA.

I tried to search this thread n it seems nobody said anything about the proper setting of the noise reduction feature in this unit, like YNR n CNR. Should we leave this at default(50%) n will this affect the setting on Sharpness High n Low too ?

Thanks.

I tried to search this thread n it seems nobody said anything about the proper setting of the noise reduction feature in this unit, like YNR n CNR. Should we leave this at default(50%) n will this affect the setting on Sharpness High n Low too ?

Thanks.

Good question. I don't recall this coming up either. I have left mine in the default position, for no reason other than I don't even know if I was aware of this feature!

:o

Hi Rob,

Did you leave the 2 sharpness at 25% as many suggested here ?

Thanks.

Hi Rob,

Did you leave the 2 sharpness at 25% as many suggested here ?

Thanks.

Yep, sure have.

Just remember that many of the preferred settings in this thread were based on trial and error, so don't be too afraid of trying out different settings for yourself. Just be sure to write down the default settings.

Even when using a test disc, Sharpness is one thing that I don't see much difference when turning it up n down, especially if you are talking about that 'ringing effect' or EE.

I'm keeping all sharpness levels at default. Anything else induces ringing or softens the picture (detail setting), or screws up the frequency response (middle and high sharpness).
Noise reduction is usually off. I programmed a user setting for 'very' grainy pictures though i.e. Hitchcock's 'the birds' or 'Down at the Waterfront' (you get the picture). I put luminance NR at three steps from the left, and chroma at two steps. That smoothens "excessive" grain without filtering out too much detail.

Edit: to be somewhat clearer: detail is off; hdmi detail is at default at the middle, as are both sharpness settings

I have searched the thread and could not find an answer to the following question.

What audio formats are passed over HDMI? What version of HDMI has the DV-59AVI?

Does it convert SACD to LPCM and then send it over HDMI? What about DVD-A over HDMI?
I was going to get a prepro that supported ilink but the options seems quite limited and with bad quality. Future prepors will definetly support audio from HDMI does the 59avi?

/// Carl

Hi all -

I have my 59avi connected via DVI to my Sammy HLN507 50" DLP and have always had an oddball error when trying to watch PAL dvds. I didn't worry about it too much in the past because I had a very small library of Region 0 PAL Dvds but now that I have modded the player to be multiregion capable (look at my earlier threads for more info), I have started to build quite an assortment of PAL dvds and the problem is becoming more annoying.

When watching PAL, it seems as if I am getting an occasional frame problem (a few times a minute) which is especially noticable and more frequent during scenes with lots of motion or panning. I'm using the "frame loss" definition loosely...as it's a bit hard to communicate exactly what I'm seeing. It's actually more like a "tearing" really and it's almost in your peripheral vision because it happens so fast. It doesn't seem to be confined to anamorphic or non-anamorphic PAL. Just PAL in general and I'm convinced there must be an easy fix or setting that I'm missing because I would think people would be ranting about this.

Is this an identified problem and could someone suggest a fix or point me in the right direction. Believe me when I say I've scanned this thread for hours before I decided to bite the bullet and post.

Back in Feb 2005, someone mentioned that they couldn't get PAL to "sync" with DVI and they had to use component instead. If that is causing the problem, I can add in a component cable for the times I watch PAL, but I would love if someone can confirm or help identify the prob for me.

Cheers,

RobbW

P.S. I just picked up the DVD set of Spaced and the anamorphic 2-disc Lost Highway British port of the MK2 French release and am dying to enjoy them without this distraction. :(

P.S.S. I don't want to add an extra layer of confusion (or a red herring) for those that don't have this DLP TV, but I should also mention that the problem seems to be a little bit less frequent when I switch the DLP over to "DVI (PC Mode)" which ever so slightly windowboxes the entire picture and adds about a 1/2" black border all around. Normally, the DVI is set to "DVI TV Mode" which expands the picture to fill the entire screen. (DVI on the HLN-507 DLP only toggles between these two options).

Could it maybe be your display: compatibility with PAL's 50Hz, 25 Fps?

RobbW,
I assume you are using 720p via DVI to DLP. DVI or component should not have any issues with 50Hz PAL. If your TV gets a picture at all with a PAL signal then it accepts it or is supposed to (a quick check in the manual will also confirm it). Also PC DVI is not what you want. If you have intermittent problems it is either a player or TV "glitch" or DVD issue. Were you using film or video based PAL DVDs?

larry

Hi Larry -

Indeed, the Sammy DLP's definitely can handle a PAL signal. Funny you bring up video vs. film...I was thinking about it last night and the last three PAL discs I have played have all been video. (The Office, Muse Concert, Spaced). I actually don't recall if the error was present on PAL film but I'll try a PAL film when I return and double check.

Is there a path this leads you down if it were to have been video specific? I've read about the Pure Cinema modes/toggles. Is this the problem people have when the player misreads film as video or vice versa?

Thanks!

Robb

I think I remember somewhere that they said that there's something different (i.e., "better") about the stereo outputs. Maybe audio asylum or somewhere. Maybe even here, a while back. Shoot, the Russian guy who knows all about DACs n' such.

My interest was piqued after this post, but I just got around to playing with it. When I initially bought the unit, I posted that I couldn't really hear a difference between the stereo outputs vs. the 7.1 outputs, based upon cursory testing w/ 2ch SACDs using headphones.

This week I climbed in the armoire and scratched up my forearms while hooking up the stereo outputs again (I had left them unplugged after removing and reinstalling everything a while back). I also checked the oversampling (Legato Pro). I thought it was engaged, but it wasn't. I switched it to Effect 3.

Well, this is completely unscientific, but CDs and 2ch SACDs really sound sweet coming out of the stereo outputs. Of course, the oversampling would only affect CDs. I figure even if the quality of the outputs is the same (but someone else talked to a Pioneer engineer who said the stereo outputs are better quality), having only the 2 channels coming in to the amp instead of an unneeded 7.1 channels, it's got to be easier on the amp. I just wanted to pass on my findings.

Doug

Hi Larry -

Indeed, the Sammy DLP's definitely can handle a PAL signal. Funny you bring up video vs. film...I was thinking about it last night and the last three PAL discs I have played have all been video. (The Office, Muse Concert, Spaced). I actually don't recall if the error was present on PAL film but I'll try a PAL film when I return and double check.

Is there a path this leads you down if it were to have been video specific? I've read about the Pure Cinema modes/toggles. Is this the problem people have when the player misreads film as video or vice versa?

Thanks!

Robb
Now that I'm more awake I just realized that film and video would both be 2:2 for PAL. Film is "sped up" to 25fps during the encoding. Try forcing to "video mode" if possible and see what happens.

larry

Also try to disable progressive output on the player and let the display handle deinterlacing, or vice versa and see what happens.

Today I purchased a DV-59AVi to go along with my Pioneer 5060-HD 50" plasma. Very happy with the picture quality compared to what I was using. However I noticed what may or may not be a problem with the unit. Regardless of the DVD when pushing the "surround" button on the remote I get on the plasma screen either "off" or "V-SRS" on. I cannot however tell any difference at all in the audio. On the player display in the manual it shows that a "surround" icon with light up (come on) when activiated. It does not. What is strange however is that when I stop the disc (not pause) I can push the same button and it lights up. If I hit start (play) again the light goes off. I looked close at the display and it's not like any other part of the display covers or overlaps that icon. Any thoughts on this problem or non problem would be greatly appreciated. For a $1,000 bucks you want something that works 100%. Thanks

Not 100% sure what you want to say. If you are not using a receiver n just using the speakers on your plasma , you should leave the surround on the DVD player at 'off', n just use the SRS feature on your plasma as surround controller. Since if you are using SRS on both units at the same time, you are doing the surround effect twice n it will not sound good.

Not 100% sure what you want to say. If you are not using a receiver n just using the speakers on your plasma , you should leave the surround on the DVD player at 'off', n just use the SRS feature on your plasma as surround controller. Since if you are using SRS on both units at the same time, you are doing the surround effect twice n it will not sound good.

Not using SRS on plasma unit. Only DVD unit. Regardless it not delivering SRS sound. Only when the DVD unit is stopped does it display the SRS icon on the DV-59AVi. The plasma screen toggles between Off or SRS on but does not make any difference in sound. If I do not use the SRS feature on the player the plasmas own SRS works fine. My point is that for a grand it should work regardless the equipment I'm using. Does anyone else have the problem or have they even noticed it. I'm just not getting any SRS and display incon only shows when unit is stopped.

Not using SRS on plasma unit. Only DVD unit. Regardless it not delivering SRS sound. Only when the DVD unit is stopped does it display the SRS icon on the DV-59AVi. The plasma screen toggles between Off or SRS on but does not make any difference in sound. If I do not use the SRS feature on the player the plasmas own SRS works fine. My point is that for a grand it should work regardless the equipment I'm using. Does anyone else have the problem or have they even noticed it. I'm just not getting any SRS and display incon only shows when unit is stopped.

I haven't used SRS, but did you check the notes for it on page 58 of the manual? It only works through the stereo analog outputs, and the Audio Output Mode must be set to 2 channel.
Good luck,
Doug

Hi all -

I tried all of the above ideas and thank you for the suggestions!!

Now that I have had a close and recent look at the problem, it is most assuredly a flickering (or perhaps frame drop?) problem during motion such as panning, or fast motion in general.

I toggled Prog Scan on and off, changed from Auto 1/2/Pure On/Pure Off modes and was unable to see a vast improvement in any combination.

Again, here is what I can tell you for sure:

o This is only happening during PAL playback, NTSC is great.
o I tested a number of discs and it doesn't matter whether it is PAL Video or Film. The error still happens.
o My Sammy HLN DLP doesn't really offer any DVI choices other than DVI TV (Wide) Mode or DVI (PC) Mode although the display on the DLP correctly shows 50hz mode during playback.
o Out of these two DLP modes, the (slightly) windowboxed setting of DVI PC Mode does noticably improve the flickering motion error during playback.
o When I played "Lost Highway", I noticed that even though the PAL DVD was very much film and not video, I couldn't get a hash mark to show up in the display transmission screen (or even a flashing one for that matter) no matter what mode I tried (Auto 1/2/Pure on/off). I thought a # sign is supposed to display when the 59avi detects that it is film. I don't know if this relevant but i thought I'd mention it just in case.

Oh well, I'm going to try to connect a component cable just to see if the error is still present...

Cheers,

Robb

I have had the 59AVi DVD player for over a year now and it has worked beautifully. Using the DVD players HDMI output into a JVC HD2K projector. Today when I turned on the DVD player, the little blue light (indicator for HDMI) on the front panel did not light up and of course I got no picture at all. Yesterday it worked perfectly. Could hear sound but I am using separate cables for sound output into a receiver. I have no idea how to proceed to figure out what the problem might be.
Any help will be much appreciated.

Thanks, Al

RobbW,
report back if the component cable works or not; that would eliminate HDCP or DVI compatibility problems.
Also, what is happening to the picture if you're going frame by frame: any ghosting or jaggies? Remember to set the still picture setting to frame and not field or auto.

Hi ourdall,

I was out all day and hadn't had the opportunity to test the component cable as yet. However, I can tell you that the stills are all perfect and crisp. No ghosts or jaggies.

Robb

It sounds like loose cable connection on either end of the HDMI. That's why I still prefer the locking system of DVI jacks.



I have had the 59AVi DVD player for over a year now and it has worked beautifully. Using the DVD players HDMI output into a JVC HD2K projector. Today when I turned on the DVD player, the little blue light (indicator for HDMI) on the front panel did not light up and of course I got no picture at all. Yesterday it worked perfectly. Could hear sound but I am using separate cables for sound output into a receiver. I have no idea how to proceed to figure out what the problem might be.
Any help will be much appreciated.

Thanks, Al

RobbW,
I looked at your past posts about the mod you made to your player. As it's a software mod to make the player regoin-free, I wonder if the 59avi is able to natively play back PAL or if what you're seeing is an artifact from internal PAL to NTSC conversion that's not handled properly.

Good point...but the problem was happening before the mod as well. It's just that I hadn't been overly concerned at the time because I had only a couple of Region 0 PAL DVD's that were in my library and would actually play. Now that I can play any region, and my library has grown, it's more of an issue.

Robb

P.S. I'm starting to wonder if it's just my DLP. I have a Sammy HLN507w and I decided to call their tech support today. I spoke with general tech support and then was escalated to level II support, and they told me that if I can get the DLP to display a PAL signal, then bully for me, but only their Plasma TV's are supposed to work with PAL and they claimed they have heard of these types of errors on their DLPs when someone has tried to send through a PAL signal and i should just be happy it works at all.

I was a bit stunned to hear this because I thought I read somewhere that the DLP's natively support PAL. I mean, obviously they do, as I get a signal, but perhaps the key point, is "not well".

Perhaps this ultimately, is the problem? Any DLP owners want to chime in?

... Any DLP owners want to chime in?
I couldn't get my HLN-507W1 to display PAL through DVI from 59avi at all. No problems doing it via component connection.

I couldn't get my HLN-507W1 to display PAL through DVI from 59avi at all. No problems doing it via component connection.

I assume that your 59 was modded to play PAL at all, since my (un-modded) 59 refuses to load PAL discs. My SP7200 will display PAL discs if I can get my 59 to play them. That's why I'm considering a mod - so that I can play the PAL discs that I used to play on my Momitsu.....

htomei

I assume that your 59 was modded to play PAL at all, since my (un-modded) 59 refuses to load PAL discs. My SP7200 will display PAL discs if I can get my 59 to play them. That's why I'm considering a mod - so that I can play the PAL discs that I used to play on my Momitsu.....

htomei
The 59Avi can play PAL discs fine even unmodded. However, it's region locked to region 1, so it can't play region 2 discs. If you have PAL discs that are region free, they will play fine and the 59Avi will output PAL video (576i/50Hz). I used to rip the discs to drive, strip the region encoding, and write them to DVD+RW discs to get around the problem. Since I got my player modded, no more work-arounds needed.

The 59Avi can play PAL discs fine even unmodded. However, it's region locked to region 1, so it can't play region 2 discs. If you have PAL discs that are region free, they will play fine and the 59Avi will output PAL video (576i/50Hz). I used to rip the discs to drive, strip the region encoding, and write them to DVD+RW discs to get around the problem. Since I got my player modded, no more work-arounds needed.
That would eliminate the 59Avi as the source of the problem then, it seems. That leaves the display: there should be a reference table ,usually at the end, of the instruction manual, showing the resolutions supported at various inputs. If the display doesn't support 50Hz on the DVI input it would show tearing when there's a pan in the movie. Then again, if the display isn't even supposed to show anything in PAL.....

Carl,

Thanks. I'll try the 'ripping' trick, and let you know how it works out....

htomei

ac388: Thanks but I checked the HDMI to DVI cable connection and there is no problem with it. My 59AVi is still not recognizing HDMI (no blue light lit and no picture).

I will say that when I connected up the 59AVi via component cable and I do get a picture but my scaler has only one component input which I need for something else so I really would like to get this HDMI problem figured out.

Any other thoughts about my 59AVi HDMI problem that I posted on 3/25/06????

Thanks, Al

Thanks all for going through this situation with me. I'll throw one last post up when I test with component but I truly have appreciated all the comments and advice.

Ourdall, you're absolutely right about the reference guide for the Sammy DLP. Sure enough, there was a list of all supported resolutions, and PAL/50hz was not specifically touched on. I think that pretty much covers it. Well, let's see what component does or doesn't do...

To be continued...

RobbW

Assuming your HDMI/DVI setting on your DVD player n TV is correct, there must be a problem on the HDMI transmitter or receiver on your units. Of course, the easiest thing is to bring your DVD player to a nearby store to test it out.




ac388: Thanks but I checked the HDMI to DVI cable connection and there is no problem with it. My 59AVi is still not recognizing HDMI (no blue light lit and no picture).

I will say that when I connected up the 59AVi via component cable and I do get a picture but my scaler has only one component input which I need for something else so I really would like to get this HDMI problem figured out.

Any other thoughts about my 59AVi HDMI problem that I posted on 3/25/06????

Thanks, Al

Carl,

Tried the ripping 'trick', and it worked like a charm!! Thanks a million. :)

htomei

Some of you may remember that I worked out a way of of preserving BTB and WTW data and still output reference signal levels over HDMI RGB. I've been thinking about this, and I now realize what my settings did, and what the price is for doing it.

On the DVD itself, data is stored in 480i component format with luma levels between 16 and 235. Sometimes, there is BTB (<16) and WTW data (>235) stored as well. Many DVDs are filtered to clip all data to the 16-235 range as part of the authoring process, but there are exceptions.

Choosing the "HDMI Direct" preset sets "HDMI Color Adjust" to Standard, and all sliders to their default. This will make the DVD player output 16-235 levels, clipping anything outside that range to 16 and 235 respectively. This will effectively eliminate all BTB and WTW content.

Setting "HDMI Color Adjust" to Enhanced expands the video levels, translating 16 to 1 and 235 to 255, interpolating levels as needed. This is know as PC RGB levels.

The way I accomplished keeping WTW and BTB without moving the reference black level of 16 and the nominal white level of 235 was to change the black level/white level/7.5 IRE settings.

This is the order I think things happen inside the player.

1. White/Black/IRE settings are applied to the data. In my case, this would push the BTB and WTW data into the 16-235 range. This will move the black level up to somewhere in the 20s, and nominal white (235) down to 220 someting. Any WTW data will now reside <235. Any BTB data will now reside >16.

2. Conversion from "Standard" to "Enhanced" will stretch the signal back to the 1-255 range, putting black back at 16 and nominal white back at 235. The BTB and WTW data will end up in the same place they are on the DVD itself.

I don't know how accurate these operations are, or how many bits are used to do this processing. In my particular setup, I noticed a few steps missing in a "1-254 by 1" step pattern which is a pattern displaying all the possible levels of gray in distinct steps. A few steps ended up with the same brightness, looking like 128,129,130,130,132. I can only attribute this to rounding errors or lack of bit depth during the compress/expand operations. In a ramp pattern, this could look like banding.

Now, is this visible with standard material? Don't know, but I want to give you a heads up. It all depends on how important it is to keep BTB and WTW data, and how commonly it appears on the DVDs you use. If you are fine discarding it, just set the player to "HDMI Direct" preset. This will make it harder to set black level right on your display, especially if you have a CRT. It will, however, eliminate any banding coming from the DVD player (in HDMI RGB mode). Of course, you may get banding for all kinds of other reasons further down the video chain.

One way of getting 1-255 passed digitally without any compromises is to have the player SDI modded. Perhaps sending YCbCr over HDMI could do this as well, but I can't test it in my setup.

Thanks, Carl. Since you are only capable of 8bit video, what you say about some sort of rounding issue could be true and/or something during the YCbCr -> RGB conversion. It would be nice if you could get a hold of a 79avi. You may also want to check out the new Oppo 970HD when it comes out shortly. It will do 480i via HDMI and should be priced quite affordably (afordable?).

larry

Hi Carl,

I checked Avia's gray ramps for banding with your settings, and sure enough, it's there. It's not so much banding as hard gradation transitions. The ramps are smooth on 'Direct' settings. I do see those transitions on the whole grayscale though, and not just on some IRE levels. So, rounding errors in the 8-bit processing does sound like a viable explanation.

I'm not sure this is visible on normal film material, but now that I know what to look for, I'll keep an eye open.

Can anyone comment on if the picture quality on the Pioneer dvr 531 dvd recorder would be same as the 59? I went to the pioneer website but could not locate what kind of chip is used. I believe someone in the forums said the quality of the picture of dvd recorders is usually less than players. I am mainly interested in playing dvd movies.

It's not so much banding as hard gradation transitions.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Steps are missing in the ramp, probably a dozen or more.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Steps are missing in the ramp, probably a dozen or more.
Carl, it appears to me that what causes it is the change in the white and black levels. Standard v. enhanced doesn't seem to make a difference, nor does 0 IRE v. 7.5 IRE.
If you have the opportunity, could you confirm by checking on your 0-254 grayscale ramp?

Carl, it appears to me that what causes it is the change in the white and black levels. Standard v. enhanced doesn't seem to make a difference, nor does 0 IRE v. 7.5 IRE.
If you have the opportunity, could you confirm by checking on your 0-254 grayscale ramp?
Confirmed, looking smooth. The player must be dithering the interpolated steps for a clean look.

Some of you may remember that I worked out a way of of preserving BTB and WTW data and still output reference signal levels over HDMI RGB. I've been thinking about this, and I now realize what my settings did, and what the price is for doing it.

On the DVD itself, data is stored in 480i component format with luma levels between 16 and 235. Sometimes, there is BTB (<16) and WTW data (>235) stored as well. Many DVDs are filtered to clip all data to the 16-235 range as part of the authoring process, but there are exceptions.

Choosing the "HDMI Direct" preset sets "HDMI Color Adjust" to Standard, and all sliders to their default. This will make the DVD player output 16-235 levels, clipping anything outside that range to 16 and 235 respectively. This will effectively eliminate all BTB and WTW content.

Setting "HDMI Color Adjust" to Enhanced expands the video levels, translating 16 to 1 and 235 to 255, interpolating levels as needed. This is know as PC RGB levels.

The way I accomplished keeping WTW and BTB without moving the reference black level of 16 and the nominal white level of 235 was to change the black level/white level/7.5 IRE settings.

This is the order I think things happen inside the player.

1. White/Black/IRE settings are applied to the data. In my case, this would push the BTB and WTW data into the 16-235 range. This will move the black level up to somewhere in the 20s, and nominal white (235) down to 220 someting. Any WTW data will now reside <235. Any BTB data will now reside >16.

2. Conversion from "Standard" to "Enhanced" will stretch the signal back to the 1-255 range, putting black back at 16 and nominal white back at 235. The BTB and WTW data will end up in the same place they are on the DVD itself.

I don't know how accurate these operations are, or how many bits are used to do this processing. In my particular setup, I noticed a few steps missing in a "1-254 by 1" step pattern which is a pattern displaying all the possible levels of gray in distinct steps. A few steps ended up with the same brightness, looking like 128,129,130,130,132. I can only attribute this to rounding errors or lack of bit depth during the compress/expand operations. In a ramp pattern, this could look like banding.

Now, is this visible with standard material? Don't know, but I want to give you a heads up. It all depends on how important it is to keep BTB and WTW data, and how commonly it appears on the DVDs you use. If you are fine discarding it, just set the player to "HDMI Direct" preset. This will make it harder to set black level right on your display, especially if you have a CRT. It will, however, eliminate any banding coming from the DVD player (in HDMI RGB mode). Of course, you may get banding for all kinds of other reasons further down the video chain.

One way of getting 1-255 passed digitally without any compromises is to have the player SDI modded. Perhaps sending YCbCr over HDMI could do this as well, but I can't test it in my setup.


Is there an implication here as to any settings I should change when driving my new Pioneer 5060hd plasma?

I love the 480i into it. I don't remember if I have it set to direct or enhanced, I will need to check. I think I may have it set to enhanced. Its HDMI out to HDMI in on the panel in case you are wondering.

Carl,
The original problem of white and black crush was reported way back when by a user going HDMI to HDMI into a projector at 480i. He reported he had to make several changes from the default "Direct" settings to keep both Blacker than Black and Peak White.

Your results mirror what he reported at 480i, so there really does seem to be something important going on at 480i.

----------------------------------------------

You ALSO report that you have confirmed this at all resolutions, but my results at 480p going HDMI to DVI into my Fujitsu plasma seem to be different.

Using default "Direct" settings (except for PureCinema set to Auto2), and going HDMI to DVI into my Fujitsu, I see both Blacker than Black and Peak White steps using Avia Pro [EDIT: And DVE] test screens.

For example, by raising black level on the Fujitsu I see the Blacker than Black moving bar in the normal luminosity levels test chart, and I see a sharp line at peak white on the deep double-X ramp chart rather than a wide band of white without a sharp peak above 235. With black level raised on the Fujitsu I also see distinct Blacker than Black steps on the deep monoticity steps test charts.

I have another player, a Pioneer Elite DV-09, that fails to pass BTB and Peak White regardless of how you set it (a well known flaw with this player), and so I know what those charts look like for a player that is truly clipping to the 16-235 range.

Again this is with the DEFAULT settings from "Direct" mode.

Now I have no tool to measure the precise digital value of the steps being sent to the Fujitsu, but as far as visual confirmation of BTB and Peak White goes, I see no need to switch to the adjusted settings that clearly DO seem to be needed for HDMI to HDMI at 480i.

I wonder whether there's perhaps a firmware difference between our machines? Or perhaps the difference is due to my using HDMI to DVI?

------------------------------------------------------------

As far as real movies go, after normal Avia Pro level setting I can get a very pleasing picture using the default Direct settings OR using your settings, but I too see what appears to be some rounding errors in the gray ramps using your settings. Now at the lowest gray levels, the Fujitsu plasma has its own rounding errors of course, and thus true "banding" seems the same on this plasma with either set of 59avi settings (default Direct or yours), but I suspect it is probably better to use the default Direct settings rather than introducing more rounding errors in the mid and upper gray levels for anyone, like me, who appears to be passing BTB and Peak White anyway.

--Bob

Hey Bob! GREAT to see you posting again!

:)

Hi, Bob.

In my testing, 480i/480p/720p/1080i all looked the same. Do you know if you are receiving YCbCr or RGB data? My testing was confined to RGB data only. YCbCr may work as it should.


I wonder whether there's perhaps a firmware difference between our machines? Or perhaps the difference is due to my using HDMI to DVI?
I'm using HDMI to DVI as well, but there could be a firmware difference I suppose.

Now at the lowest gray levels, the Fujitsu plasma has its own rounding errors of course, and thus true "banding" seems the same on this plasma with either set of 59avi settings (default Direct or yours), but I suspect it is probably better to use the default Direct settings rather than introducing more rounding errors in the mid and upper gray levels for anyone, like me, who appears to be passing BTB and Peak White anyway.
I agree!

If I go directly, HDMI to HDMI, to the projector, without scaler etc, at 720p resolution, the player does pass BtB and WtW on the 'Direct' and hdmi color 'Standard' settings. At least it passes 10, 12, 14 lumen values, as well as 237, 239 and 241. These are the only ones I can measure with the test discs at hand, but I suppose the rest of the luma scale is also passed correctly.

Carl,
I didn't think it was POSSIBLE to do other than RGB when going into DVI. Doesn't DVI only support RGB?

Now the classic HDMI to DVI clipping bug -- widely reported here as due to a poorly designed HDMI output driver chip commonly used, even today, in many many players (including, I suspect, this one) -- results in clipping HDMI to DVI output to the 16-235 range *IF AND ONLY IF* the faulty chip is asked to do the conversion to RGB.

The workaround is to do the conversion to RGB earlier and to pass RGB to the chip if the player detects a DVI display at the other end of the cable, which means the faulty chip has no work to do in that regard and thus no faulty clipping takes place.

The working assumption when the 59avi first came out, and was first confirmed to pass BTB over HDMI to DVI, was that it was either not using this particular, faulty output driver chip or was doing the conversion to RGB on its own before passing data to that chip.

In any event, my 59avi certainly seems to pass both BTB and Peak White running HDMI to DVI at 480p when using the default "Direct" settings.

So I wonder whether Pioneer might have switched to the faulty chip in later production runs, or perhaps made a firmware change where it NOW depends on the faulty chip to do the conversion to RGB for HDMI to DVI output?

If so, it is possible that your setting changes force the player to do the RGB conversion before passing the data to the chip -- as well as the compression and re-expansion of the data range (with rounding errors) as you have described.

Sigh. This stuff really shouldn't be this complicated.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to be crystal clear here, let me re-confirm that you are, in fact, seeing the following in your test rig, and I haven't just misunderstood you:

With the 59avi set to DEFAULT "HDMI Direct" settings, and cabled HDMI to DVI at 480p, you are seeing NO data lower than 16 or higher than 235 getting through, correct?

If so, then there is something fundamentally different between your rig and mine. What a puzzle!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't test HDMI to HDMI at 480i with my hardware, but I believe we now have several confirmations from different people (including you) that setting adjustments on the 59avi are indeed needed to pass BTB and also Peak White in that arrangement. And the reported setting adjustments mirror what you found.

So folks running at 480i will likely still be best served with your adjusted settings (trading off BTB and Peak White for a handful of rounding errors in the mid grays).
--Bob

If so, it is possible that your setting changes force the player to do the RGB conversion before passing the data to the chip -- as well as the compression and re-expansion of the data range (with rounding errors) as you have described.
--Bob
It's some time ago that I put Carl's settings in, but I remember that that was one of the purposes of putting them in. If I remember correctly, the player does the RGB conversion before passing the data on when in enhanced hdmi color mode, and after it passes the data on when in standard hdmi color mode.

This might be different for different firmwares though, I never really checked.


Sigh. This stuff really shouldn't be this complicated.



I agree. :)

I 1st came across the possible issue with HDMI to DVI losing btb in a Secret's article. But I remember that article being written early on in the lifecycle of the 59AVi. And they specifically said that the 59AVi didn't have the problem. ??

I'll ask ZZTop's question again too. (I admittedly don't understand everything y'all are talking about. :) )

I am still using Carl's earlier recommended settings. Should we change? HDMI direct defaults (and standard mode)?

Also, I have a Marantz 9600 here. Fine player, no question. But for those of us with 59AVi's, you will understand this. I'm probably going to keep the 59AVi. The Marantz is great, but it's missing one key critical "convenience" feature that the Pio has but it doesn't:

Pio:
elapsed track time
remaining track time
remaining disc time

Marantz:
elapsed track time
elapsed total time

The 9600 doesn't even put up total disc time when you load the disc. No way to display remaining track time or disc time even on the video display. I don't think I can live without those.

I am still using Carl's earlier recommended settings. Should we change? HDMI direct defaults (and standard mode)?

It depends on your whole setup. In my current setup, the pio now passes BtB and WtW in Standard Direct settings. So I'm probably going that way now, as there is no real reason anymore to apply more processing to the video signal than needed.

Unless something else comes up, of course.

Kevin,
Hang in there for a bit. We are still trying to understand this better.

However you are correct that all of the early reports regarding the 59avi (including my own) said that it passed BTB just fine using HDMI to DVI at 480p, 720p, and 1080i.

Of course you can't run HDMI to DVI at 480i so when we first started getting HDMI to HDMI at 480i reports was when we first heard there might be a problem requiring different settings on the 59avi. Some such settings let BTB pass but clobbered Peak White data. The trick was to find a way to get ALL the data to pass through.

Carl's work has nailed down a good way to do those alternate settings so as to get the full range of data, and apparently this work-around has the added advantage of working THE SAME WAY at all resolutions, but apparently at the expense of some rounding errors. For folks using HDMI 480i, or switching between HDMI resolutions that happen to include HDMI 480i, the tradeoff between clipping BTB and Peak White data vs. introducing those rounding errors is not quite clear yet.

Now in a perfect world, Carl's settings would not be necessary at any resolution. And except for rounding errors due to the extra processing, Carl's settings SHOULD produce the identical results as the default settings. In essence they are a workaround to force the machine spit to out what it should have been spitting out to begin with.

Now, where the originally reported problem is coming from at HDMI 480i is not clear. And just what HDMI Color "standard" vs. "enhanced" is SUPPOSED to do is also, at least to me, not clear. And why I and at least some others appear to see BTB and Peak White data using the Direct default settings at 480p and above but Carl and I guess some others are not is ALSO not clear.

So wait a bit while we try to figure this out. While you are waiting, you should have a fine picture using Carl's settings. If you are lucky like me and don't seem to be having this BTB and Peak White clipping problem at 480p and above you should ALSO have a fine picture using the Direct default settings at those resolutions.

But stay tuned, because I suspect we'll learn more shortly.
--Bob

Good to see you back, Bob. And, the only thing I'm going to point out that I tried to make clear in some thread, maybe here, is that just because you see the BTB bar does not mean you are seeing BTB (<16) data. The BTB bar is encoded at 15 (I think) and if the player raises it to 16 or higher you will still see the "bar" by tweaking the black level on the display if necessary. However, as long as the player is passing all the data, even elevated, you can compensate in the display, i.e. take the 16 or 17 and drop it down to 15 (unseen) and hopefully the black level adjustments are fine enough to do it 1 "tick" at a time. I doubt any data is coming in at above 250 and won't be lost. The only way to tell if you are really getting the BTB data to the display is to examine the bits. It seems the Lumagen diags let you do this to some extent. Also, a good test to see if the player is clipping BTB is to lower the brightness/black level on the player and see if the BTB bar is still visible by raising the black level on the display.

larry

Bob,

Turns out I was pooping out of my fingers. I just re-ran the tests, and you are correct. 480p/720p/1080i all pass BTB and WTW correctly in HDMI Direct mode. Only 480i seems to suffer from the clipping. That would explain the things we are seeing. So this is the new recommendation:

1) If you are running the 59Avi in 480p, 720p or 1080i, please select "HDMI Direct" mode, with "Standard" for "HDMI Color".
2) If you are running 480i, please use my original settings if you care about passing BTB and WTW. If you don't, use "HDMI Direct" settings.

Best,
Carl

PS DVI supports YCbCr as well, but it's an optional implementation. HDMI add this as a requirement. DS

Carl,
Ah hah! Okey doke.

So we still don't know what it is, precisely, that the 59avi is doing wrong at HDMI 480i to cause it to clip like that.

And I wish I could figure out why Pioneer chose to name that one setting HDMI *COLOR* Adjust. As you say, it just seems to spread the data out to force PC-style encoding, which should have nothing to do with "color" anything!

Thanks for double checking!

And I'll repeat, anyone who DOES use your settings SHOULD be getting a fine picture in real films, and those settings DO seem to work identically regardless of resolution, which you can't say for the default Direct settings.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, this latest pass at setting levels taught me something I hadn't tried before. Avia Pro, in addition to the normal Color and Tint setting stuff found on regular Avia, also has what they call a color checkerboard. This is three sets of color squares in a checker pattern that lets you separately see the effect of color decoding and color level/balance on each of the Red, Green and Blue channels and their complement. You look through each of the three color filters in turn to see how close you are to "right" for each color channels set of checker squares.

With the normal scheme you adjust using Blue only (flashing patches chart on Avia), and then go to the color decoder test chart to see if you need to reduce Color a bit more (thus deliberately misadjusting Blue) to counter Red push.

But if you don't have decoder problems in your display, one of the issues of adjusting using Blue only is the sensitivity of the eye to Blue levels. It's tough even with Avia's flashing patches! And so you may ignore alternate, slightly different, settings that might be "just as good" for blue.

So here's the trick. First adjust Color and Tint on your display for Blue using the flashing patches -- the normal Avia chart used with the Blue filter. Then, if you have it, switch to Avia Pro's static color checkerboard chart. Now start playing around making very small changes in Color and Tint on your display.. What you are looking for is the best "compromise" setting to make each of the three different colored checkerboard sets, in turn, appear as one common color when viewed through the right color filter -- i.e., you want the individual checker squares to vanish so that you just see one flat larger square where the checker squares used to be for that color channel.

When you start, of course, Blue should be perfect and Red and Green off a bit (when each is viewed through the right color filter) because you just adjusted Blue using the flashing patches. When you finish, your final settings should be very close to your original choices found by testing with Blue but there should be a distinct improvement in the over-all average "rightness" of the setting when viewed through each of the three color filters in turn.

I did this expecting it to have no real significant impact on final image quality since the changes from the original, Blue-only, settings were small. But BOY WAS I WRONG! It made as big an improvement in naturalness of the imagery as you might expect going from factory default gray scale settings to the proper calibrated settings! It was like finally getting Gamma right. I was shocked.

Anyway, the moral is that -- even if you DON'T have a color push problem -- what you decide are the ideal settings by testing for Blue alone may, by minor tweaking, be greatly improved upon if you compromise Blue just a tad for improved Red and Green.
--Bob

Sometimes you have to strike a compromise in the color saturation settings. You don't want to de-saturate blue and green *too* much to compensate for red push problems.

The "HDMI Color Adjust" actually changes the color saturation as well as re-sampling to PC levels. Try both "Standard" and "Enhanced', and you will see that you will need to adjust saturation in the display to compensate.

Carl,
Yes. If I start from Avia Pro calibrated display levels using default Direct settings in the 59avi at HDMI to DVI 480p, and then JUST change HDMI Color Adjust from Standard to Enhanced, the most noticeable change is that the gray levels are clearly off.

The change made to the gray levels output by the 59avi seems consistent with your assumption that one thing "Enhanced" is doing is stretching the luminance scale such that the original data range from 16-235 is stretched to 0-255, with the original BTB and Peak White data pushed off the scale at either end.

Then if you add the other changes you describe, the gray levels output by the 59avi go back to normal (except for rounding errors), with the full data range preserved.

Indeed the Avia Pro calibrated Contrast, Brightness and Sharpness on my Fujitsu Plasma are identical using either the default Direct settings or your combination of changes.

In fact the calibrated Tint setting is also identical.

But when switching from the default Direct settings in the 59avi to your settings, I need to LOWER the Color setting on the Fujitsu by 7 steps. I realize the units are unknown here, but that's a fairly sizeable reduction of color saturation.

So HDMI Color Adjust "Enhanced" is increasing color saturation sent out by the 59avi as well as, apparently, stretching the luminance scale so that you have to counter it, somehow, or you will effectively be using PC-style encoding where Black = 0 and Reference White = 255, and no BTB or Peak White data exists.

Fine and dandy. The question is, WHY???

What on earth would be the POINT of such a control, and why associate it with HDMI?

I mean I realize it helps you get around the HDMI 480i clipping problem but given its name, that hardly seems to be what it was designed for.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I suppose we could just declare victory and say we now know settings that work to pass the entire data range at each resolution, but I'd feel much better if I knew what that Standard/Enhanced control was INTENDED to do.
--Bob

Bob's last post sums things up nicely. I can't fathom the why of the hdmi color settings either though: it seems like somebody changed his/her mind about the finality of the settings whilst in the middle of designing the thing. Maybe some other engineer took over and just assumed the previous' ones intentions with the settings and simply got them wrong.

Bob and Carl mention the change in color saturation in the different modes: does this relate to what some people mentioned about RGB conversion happening before or after the data is passed onto the hdmi output driver chip?

ourdall,
Typically DVD players will offer the option of converting the DVD standard's video style encoding (Black=16, Reference White=235, BTB=1 to 15, Peak White=236 to 254) into PC style encoding (Black=0, Reference White=255, no BTB or Peak White) so that the player can be used with displays whose digital input can not be configured to accept other than the PC style encoding used by typical computer graphics cards AND whose Blacks/Whites adjustment range is not large enough to do the job itself if fed video style encoding. Using such a display without having this option in the player would mean you couldn't achieve proper, calibrated Blacks/Whites levels.

[This is somewhat like what happens with analog video connections where the player can send out Black as the analog voltage corresponding to either 7.5 IRE or 0 IRE to allow for different TV set and display manufacturing standards in different parts off the world -- and where video switchers and displays may not be able to pass BTB sent at negative voltages (i.e., below 0 IRE). But in reality these are two distinct types of compatability problems, and a player with both analog and digital video outputs should be able to address both of them separately.]

So since the HDMI Color Adjust "Enhanced" setting appears to incorporate this digital output range stretching from normal video style encoding to PC style encoding, it would appear to be targeted at computer style displays.

Thus the question is: Is there a type of computer style display standard anywhere in the world that ALSO requires an over saturated color encoding because it otherwise doesn't have enough color adjustment range to handle the normal, weaker, incoming digital color signal?

I can't think of any.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Another possibility here is that HDMI Color Adjust "Enhanced" is intended to exploit an optional protocol for HDMI and we aren't seeing the "advantage" of it either because we are going HDMI to DVI or because our HDMI to HDMI connections are into display devices that don't properly support this optional protocol.

But I also can't think what that might be! The logical choice is RGB to YCbCr, perhaps at higher bit depth, but it doesn't make sense to me that then converting that back to RGB for output to a DVI display would yield the results we are seeing.

Even if selecting "Enhanced" is forcing the HDMI output driver chip to turn on its RGB conversion (and thus its clipping bug) we wouldn't get this result. That chip's clipping bug just discards data below 16 and above 235. It doesn't also stretch the range to move Black from 16 to 0, etc.

It's a real puzzle.

I don't know if this control exists in the newer 79avi and whether it might be better explained for that machine.

Ah well, I like the picture I get with the DEFAULT "Direct" settings, so I suppose I'll just stick with that and be happy.

But it sure would be nice if we had some Pioneer engineers on this forum who could explain what the heck they were thinking when they added this control -- not to mention some of their other controls.
--bob

So, what are the implications of these observations for those of use sending 480i to our video processor/projector. Should we use Carl's settings in post 1 of this thread?

Thanks for your answers Bob. Your interventions have shed light on some puzzles that seemed very opaque till now, even if all hasn't been said and done yet.

I will try your color and saturations adjustments later on and see what can be done with them. I never was able to get the three colors to blend perfectly, so your settings will definitly be tried.

I think this is what's going on with "HDMI Color Adjust"...

There are two different ways of converting YCbCr to RGB for standard definition. One generates so called "Studio RGB" (16-235) and one generates "PC RGB" (0-255) from nominal YCbCr (Y=16-235, CbCr=16-240) values.

Component Y values are 16-235 nominal (excursions outside are allowed for BTB and WTW data). Component Cb and Cr are 16-240 nominal (excursions allowed as well). 128 is considered the neutral value for both Cb and Cr.

BT.601 specifies the following formula for conversion to Studio RGB:

R=Y+1.371(Cr-128)
G=Y-0.698(Cr-128)-0.336(Cb-128)
B=Y+1.732(Cb-128)

Y=16, Cb=128, Cr=128 would yield R=16, G=16, B=16 (Studio RGB black)
Y=128, Cb=128, Cr=200 yields R=227, G=58, B=128 (a red pixel)

Now, there is a transform that's used to convert YCbCr to "PC RGB" that does the "stretching" as part of the conversion. It's one formula doing both. I found this one on the web, and it seems to be the one commonly used.

R=1.164(Y-16)+1.596(Cr-128)
G=1.164(Y-16)-0.813(Cr-128)-0.392(Cb-128)
B=1.164(Y-16)+2.017(Cb-128)

Y=16, Cb=128, Cr=128 would yield R=0, G=0, B=0 (PC RGB black)
Y=128, Cb=128, Cr=200 yields R=244, G=72, B=128 (a redder pixel)

As you can see, the RGB values for the red pixel are very different depending on which transform you use. The "PC RGB" one has higher value for red than the "Studio RGB" one.

I think the "HDMI Color Adjust" simply selects which of these algorithms are being used for the YCbCr->RGB conversion in the 59Avi.

PS This seems to make since, since you are not only clipping WTW and BTB, you are also clipping "Redder than red", "Bluer than blue" etc when you convert to PC RGB. This will lead to a higher color "saturation" in RGB space. DS

mskreis,
If I were in your shoes I would probably use Carl's settings until something better comes along. I'm a big believer in the importance of presenting Blacker than Black and Peak White data to the display (projector in your case) so that the display has the full range of data to work with as it does any internal processing -- rather than having a sharp cutoff of the data at 16 and 235.

If you've ever looked into how "signal processing" works you'll know that one of the big no-nos is to put a sharp cutoff on either end of the data range, as that introduces various artifacts into the math near those ends. Instead you want a smooth drop off of "extra" data range at either end to give the math algorithms a little extra room to maneuver.

And Peak White data should even add to what you see on screen in things like clouds, sparks, and glint highlights -- presuming your display isn't also clipping it with a contrast limiter or some such.

I don't think the handful of rounding errors Carl reported will make that much of a difference given the other errors that are introduced all along the processing chain from movie camera to screen. I mean he's not talking about any drop outs or shifts of more than one step. But I suppose the jury is still out on that.

If you see image problems in the mid grays, try switching back to the "default" Direct settings -- being sure to re-adjust levels, particularly Color, afterwards. If the "default" settings seem to have problems at the top and bottom of the gray scale, try switching to Carl's settings and recalibrating again. Only your eye will tell you which is better. And if you see no difference, then use either one.

--------------------------------------------------------------

The real solution is to push for a fix from Pioneer that lets HDMI 480i pass BTB and Peak White data the way it is SUPPOSED to. This is a bug, and we are just talking workarounds at this point.
--Bob

Speaking of bugs, it was reported way back when that the 59avi seems to screw up either its de-interlacing or it's film cadence detection if you bring some set of it's on screen displays up. For example, pressing the Video Adjust button on the remote to bring up that menu apparently locks the 59avi into a mode where it no longer does this stuff right -- even after you exit that menu.

It appears to be an artifact of whatever image overlay generation process the 59avi is using to put that menu on the screen. And the reports way back when were that the only way to kick the 59avi back into doing things right were to power cycle the 59avi after exiting such menus!

In recent testing with the HQV benchmark DVD I've seen this problem, and it is true that power cycling the 59avi makes it go away (not THAT nasty since the 59avi remembers where you were in the DVD).

My question is whether anyone knows off a fix from Pioneer on this or a less annoying way to get the 59avi back to doing things right other than power cycling it after each use of its menus?
--Bob

Carl,
I suppose that makes sense, although it would have been SO EASY for them to use a more descriptive label. E.g.: HDMI Output Mode = "Normal TV" vs. "Computer Display"

Also they talk about it in the manual as correcting color problems when in fact the problem most people will see first (if their display input requires PC style encoding) is bad black levels.

Sigh.... And if you are correct, it sure makes it clear that this setting was not INTENDED as a way to fix the HDMI 480i output problem.

Thanks for the lesson on color issues in PC style encoding!
--Bob

And if you are correct, it sure makes it clear that this setting was not INTENDED as a way to fix the HDMI 480i output problem.
That's for sure! After all, what you want out of an RGB->YCbCr->RGB conversion chain are the same values that went in. This doesn't seem to be possible with the DV-59Avi in RGB 480i mode without discarding BTB and WTW.

Rob,
I think you can safely update Carl's settings reported in the first post of this thread as being appropriate ONLY for 480i resolution by folks using the HDMI output (with HDMI set to use RBG encoding on the display end).

Folks using HDMI to HDMI or HDMI to DVI at 480p, 720p, or 1080i should continue to use the DEFAULT "HDMI Direct" mode settings -- with the usual suggestion that PureCinema = Auto2 may well be the most trouble free setting to leave in place, rather than the default Auto1.

And of course Carl's settings are just a workaround for the player's bug at HDMI 480i, so if we ever get a fix from Pioneer that would certainly be preferable.

Carl's settings introduce some minor rounding errors that some people may find more objectionable than the loss of BTB and Peak White caused by this bug. But the settings are definitely worth a try for HDMI 480i users and could very well be a win for those users.

In addition, folks switching between the default "Direct" settings and Carl's settings should be alert to the need to re-check their display levels -- particularly the Color level -- as Carl's settings also have the side effect of increasing color saturation coming out of the 59avi.
--Bob

Carl and Bob- You guys rock. Thank you !!

Carl and Bob- You guys rock. Thank you !!

Agreed! The information shared in this thread is very much appreciated.

I tried Bob's advice for finding a compromise on color saturation. Going through hdmi, I don't have tint and color settings on my display, so I tried the hue and chroma level settings on the 59avi.

In the default 'direct' settings, blue is perfect, but green is a bit off, and red even worse.

On several test discs, including Avia and DVE, the best overall compromise I could find are these: chroma level up almost all the way one click shy from maximum, and hue down two clicks shy from minimum. No color is quite perfect anymore, but at least they play all together in the same ballpark.

Funnily enough this ends up giving the same saturated picture as Carl's settings in enhanced mode.

ourdall,

Sounds like you may be suffering from red push. What display do you have?

Sanyo Z3.

Carl, I should add that yes the Z3 does seem to have red push. It's a bit tricky to calibrate, especially without filters, but I more or less am happy with the colors. The shading is way more of a problem.
As I don't have tint and color on the Z3 thru hdmi, I always left saturation and tint 'as is', at default and never calibrated those settings.
But what I found interesting is that once I calibrate the hue and chroma level on the player for a good compromise, blue and green are almost spot on and red the best I could get it, the results definitly looked to have the same saturation than your 'enhanced' settings (minus the changes in hue and I had to push red a bit on the projector to compensate).
What I am trying to say is that it's not only the red that seems affected, but all three colors. As the instructions for the Pio say the hdmi color setting is intended to give better color, I wonder if Pioneer actually has done this on purpose and deliberatly raises saturation in enhanced mode. As to 'why'....? The fact that 'enhanced' corresponds more or less to the colordecoder of my projector is probably unintended.
The Z3 was a bit on the under-saturated side in direct mode, so the tweaked settings actually make for some interesting viewing, while keeping the benefits of the direct mode.
I'm not sure if those settings are keepers, and they do seem to be very display dependant. But the 59 sure provides for a lot of different situations.

Update: I re-checked and it seems that while saturation looks the same in "enhanced" mode and my "direct" settings, colors are not the same in the colordecoder tests.

Red and green are both too saturated in the enhanced mode, blue seems ok. This coincides with your findings about two different transforms used.

I have to give these settings some time before making a decision. Problem is: I like the saturation in "enhanced" mode in my setting. How about that?

Update: I re-checked and it seems that while saturation looks the same in "enhanced" mode and my "direct" settings, colors are not the same in the colordecoder tests.

Red and green are both too saturated in the enhanced mode, blue seems ok. This coincides with your findings about two different transforms used.

I have to give these settings some time before making a decision. Problem is: I like the saturation in "enhanced" mode in my setting. How about that?
You can fix red/green push in the service menu of that projector, so you may want to explore that option.

Sadly red/green push cannot be fixed for hdmi in the service menu. It's supposed to be perfect. :(

Sadly red/green push cannot be fixed for hdmi in the service menu. It's supposed to be perfect. :(
That would make sense, since red/green push errors are normally introduced by the color decoder that transforms YCbCr to RGB. Assuming your primaries are in the right spots, and the grayscale is D65, you should be good. Are you using filters or is there a color isolation feature on the Z3? Filters are pretty leaky, especially for green.

No filter nor isolation. Actually I always assumed tint and color, if not D65, would be ok thru hdmi and never checked until the saturation issue with your enhanced settings came up. I always did find the "direct" settings a bit dull, but assumed that's the way it ought to be (and the more saturated enhanced setting was a consolation. :))

I'm surprised that calibrating hdmi color saturation and tint thru the player's, limited, hue and chroma level controls actually show an improvment over supposedly 'perfect' hdmi, at least on color-decoder tests.

I've owned a Pioneer DV-59AVi for just over two years now. From day one, the
player tended to skip/hang/freeze on some discs. Not too often, so it wasn't a
big hassle, but often enough to border on a small hassle :-). . Most discs that
it wouldn't play would play just fine on my $32 Cyber-Home player.

Recently I decided to have this fixed and called Pioneer. Turned out the warranty
had run out just two week earlier... As far as Pioneer was concerned, at that
point it wasn't their problem.

I'm hoping that I can fix the player myself. Does anyone have a service manual
(or good copy) to sell? Does anyone have a clue as to what would cause
this problem in this model?

Thanks in advance,

-- Ron

Ron,
The worst case scenario is that you need to replace the transport itself because the motor that positions the laser is faulty -- either it isn't going where it is supposed to go or, more normally, it isn't responding fast enough to the slight repositioning stuff that needs to happen constantly as it tracks playback on each disc.

If your problems happen most often at the outside or inside extremes of the arm travel (e.g., near the start of the movie or near the layer change), then this is most likely what's going on -- motor too weak to track reliably at one end or the other of arm travel. All DVD transports will eventually get weak positioning motors as they age, but yours might have been faulty from the beginning.

I suppose you could replace the transport yourself, but most people would have a repair shop do it.

---------------------------------------------------------

The next worst problem is that the laser head is out of alignment -- sometimes caused by playing a disc upside down and with something like tape on it that hits the head, or by using one of those dang "DVD Head Cleaner" discs that deliberately brush up against the head. Again this is something that you probably want a shop to deal with. If the laser head has been damaged you may need to replace the transport. A mis-aligned laser head would typically show problems at any playing time, but the problem would not get worse over time.

---------------------------------------------------------

The better scenario is that your player just needs to have the transport area cleaned because it has gradually accumulated enough dust or smoke particles that it's no longer getting a good look at your discs. This is often a problem if the player is used in a room where a lot of smoking happens or in a room with a smokey fireplace.

If your problems seem to happen equally at all sorts of different times during playback, and if it seems to be getting worse, and if you are using the player in this sort of room, this is likely the reason.

Do NOT try those "DVD Head Cleaner" kits that provide a scrubbing disc to put in the player! They are as likely to mis-align the laser as clean it.

Instead, get a can of clean compressed air of the type used for cleaning camera lenses and try a few brief shots of that into the disc playing area where the laser head is. This stuff comes out cold so don't overdo it or you'll get condensation in there that has to evaporate before the player will work properly. If that doesn't do it, then you'll likely need to pay a shop to clean it for you, but that's not that expensive.

---------------------------------------------

The best scenario is that your discs are simply dirtier than you think they are! Take another good look at the discs giving you grief.
--Bob

Ron- Don't give up. Long story short: I bought a refurb DV-05 a bunch of years back. Refurb, so 90 day warranty. The drive started making noise about 6 months in, then died. Even though it was out of warranty, I wrote a nice letter about it being an Elite product, $1000 list price, 6 months for a drive to fail was unacceptable, etc. They said, we are sorry, but too bad. I wrote again, nice but a little firmer this time, about how I am constantly recommending Pio players to my friends, but now I wasn't, and reiterated all the stuff in the first letter. Lo and behold, they took my DV-05 in trade for a very nice credited amount for a 47Ai directly from Pioneer.

In your case, focus on the fact that you've had the problem even before the warranty was up, you just lost track of time in terms of contacting them. Or something. Keep trying. :)

I doubt very much you'd be able to fix this on your own. Longer time ago, the drive in my CD player was failing, and one of the mnt techs where I work took a look at it, and he said there wasn't anything he could do. One of the better techs we had.

are they only applicable when the pio is outputting RGB ? what abt YCbCr output ?

I have a VP30 connected to it. At 480i with "Standard" I'm getting YCbCr444. (If I change to "Enhanced" I'm getting RGB.) With YCbCr it seems I'm losing BTW also.

are they only applicable when the pio is outputting RGB ? what abt YCbCr output ?

I have a VP30 connected to it. At 480i with "Standard" I'm getting YCbCr444. (If I change to "Enhanced" I'm getting RGB.) With YCbCr it seems I'm losing BTW also.

c722,

Like you, at 480i over HDMI to my vp30 I get YCbCr444 using "standard" and no BTB. But I found that if I then changed the IRE (on the 59avi) from 0 to 7.5 I could get the BTB bar in DVE. At the 0 setting I couldn't get it no matter how I adjusted the brightness on the pj (IN76).

I've been following this thread closely (and trying to undertand!) but I'm probably doing something wrong. Not sure the way I have it set is correct thing to do.

Mike

I think what you will find is that changing that IRE setting has the effect of raising ALL the luminance data by about 16 steps (the digital equivalent of the voltage range represented by going from 0 IRE to 7.5 IRE on an analog video cable). The bug in the digital output then clips anything below 16, but since you've now pushed BTB data (normally 0-15) into the range 16-31 that data still goes out the HDMI.

Now when you try to set levels you'll find you need to LOWER blacks by 16 steps to compensate and get Black back to where it is supposed to be.

I.e., Black= 16 becomes 32 in the player and then you lower it back to 16.

You'll see BTB data become visible if you don't lower it quite that much. All fine and dandy at the low end of grays.

The problem is what is going on at the OTHER end of the scale.

That IRE setting is likely pushing everything all the way up to Reference White (235) up as well, which means the 16 steps just below Reference White have now been pushed up into the Peak White range (above 235). And now the bug clips THAT data before sending it out the HDMI cable.

When you then lower things again to get blacks correct, you'll likely find you've not only lost Peak White but also the top 16 steps leading up to Reference White.

I.e., Ref White = 235 becomes 251 in the player but is then clipped by the output bug back to 235, and then you now lower it to 219. Essentially any original data from 219 through Reference White (235) and beyond that all the way up through Peak Whites to 255 all gets crushed down to 219.

The earliest poster on this HDMI 480i topic basically found just this. He could easily recover BTB, but only at the expense of severe white crush at the top of the gray scale. However by doing what is essentially Carl's trick (adding in the HDMI Color Adjust "Enhanced" setting), he could preserve both the top and bottom of the scale. At the time that appeared to be a complete win although he didn't have the numerical display tools to verify it completely. We now know that even with a few other corrective adjustments Carl discovered to insure the complete range gets through, this workaround is at the expense of some rounding errors.
--Bob

Bob, I agreed with what you said. However I seem to remember all Carl's findings are on RGB. He doesn't have the tools available to test on YCbCr. When I change the HDMI to Enhanced, the 1st thing I get is an RGB output not YCbCr output. So if we really want YCbCr and not RGB, we can't use the Enhanced trick.

c722,
I believe you are correct. Setting that "Enhanced" mode forces conversion to RGB (apparently) using the alternate style of color math that Carl discovered -- as well as having the side effect of stretching the data to PC style encoding (which is countered by the other setting changes in Carl's setttings).

I use DVI cabling, so YCbCr is not an option for me. The connection handshake will discover that DVI wants RGB and thus a conversion to RGB must happen at some point in the 59avi.

You might experiment and see if your HDMI processor/display has an option to FORCE YCbCr rather than just accepting whichever the 59avi would rather send out. If you can make the processor/display say it only understands YCbCr, then the 59avi will discover that stubborness during the connection handshake, and the various 59avi settings might react differently -- or it might just refuse to make the connection.

----------------------------------------------------------------

By the way, for folks using component cabling, I believe there were also early reports in this thread that Component 480i also required setting changes, but that's more understandable since different displays expect different analog voltages on the cable representing Black (i.e, either IRE 0 or IRE 7.5). However a properly designed display and player combo can still pass BTB (and Peak Whites) with EITHER of those voltage standards. For example, using IRE 0 setting where Black is represented as zero voltage on the analog cable, BTB is just represented as small negative voltages. The whole idea of IRE 7.5 was to allow BTB to be represented by small positive voltages between 0 volts and the positive voltage associated with IRE 7.5. This made for simpler analog TV circuits way back when since all the real image data was positive voltages while the sync signals were negative voltages.

----------------------------------------------------------------

And the more I think about it, the more sense it makes to me that Carl's settings MUST have rounding errors.

His settings first compress the data range so that almost the entire range fits in the smaller range of steps from Black to Reference White. The "Enhanced" setting then stretches the range back again to 0-255. But you can't do that compression and re-expansion without smearing some steps in the process -- unless you have infinite precision math. In reality the 59avi is undoubtedly doing this with fixed precision math -- 8 bits or 10 bits or whatever.

The fact that Carl found only about a dozen rounding errors of a mere size 1 step actually means the math in the 59avi for this type of processing is doing a pretty good job.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Nevertheless, this is still just a workaround for a bug that shouldn't be in there to begin with.
--Bob

Carl,
Could you comment again on what you found when you changed JUST the IRE setting to 7.5 and the HDMI Color Adjust setting to "Enhanced" at HDMI 480i without any of the other corrective changes?

Was it just that the clipping at each end moved closer to 0 and 255 instead of clipping everything below 16 and above 235? Or were the unclipped steps in the middle also showing missing steps (non-linearity) to a greater degree as well -- countered more or less by the rest of your changes?

If by making just those two changes the clipping could be moved out to pass, say, 10-241 instead of just 16-235, but with good linearity in the unclipped range that makes it through, that might be a good compromise option for folks concerned with the rounding errors in your current "best" set of settings.

------------------------------------------------------

Also, now that we know that "Enhanced" also alters color response coming out of the player, what do you think of the merit of trying to counter this by just changing Color, or even Color/Tint on the display? I.e., if we switch to "Enhanced" and then lower Color on the display, do you think that's a complete corrrection to what "Enhanced" did to the colors, or is it likely that some portions of the color gamut will still remain distorted.

I'm having trouble picturing what the alternate conversion math really does, but it is hard to believe that just lowering saturation on the display will return things back to "normal" color response as viewed on screen all across the range of colors.
--bob

Bob,

Thanks much for your detailed reply.

This is not a hard fault, but, rather, marginal behaviour. The problem
is very intermittent and does not occur with new or my own discs,
but, mostly, with rental disks. Also, it generally occurs well into
playing of the disc -- say, beyond half an hour or so. In addition,
it was cured once or twice by carefully cleaning the disc.

Also, in the beginning, I did use a lens cleaning disc (never suspected
that the soft brush could actually do damage) -- possibly, due to a
genuinely bad rental disc.

For these reasons, I think it less likely the transport or motor are at
fault and that marginal laser alignment is more likely.

Looks like my course of action should be:

1. Clean the transport/lens. Don't need service manual for that.

2. Check/correct alignment. Need service manual. Do you know whether
I also need some special tool/gauge?

3. Replace transport. Again, I'd get the instructions before proceeding.
The same question regarding special tools applies.

I think/hope I am fully capable of doing all the above (I was a tech for
years, before getting the BSEE and MSCS and personally maintain all
devices in my system).

Thanks again for your help. Truly appreciated.

-- Ron

And the more I think about it, the more sense it makes to me that Carl's settings MUST have rounding errors.

His settings first compress the data range so that almost the entire range fits in the smaller range of steps from Black to Reference White. The "Enhanced" setting then stretches the range back again to 0-255. But you can't do that compression and re-expansion without smearing some steps in the process -- unless you have infinite precision math. In reality the 59avi is undoubtedly doing this with fixed precision math -- 8 bits or 10 bits or whatever.

The fact that Carl found only about a dozen rounding errors of a mere size 1 step actually means the math in the 59avi for this type of processing is doing a pretty good job.
--Bob
I'm still out debating wether I see those rounding errors in actual movies or not. One some large objets, like walls etc, some gradation errors may be there, as those same walls do look smoother with Standard settings. Let's say the Enhanced setting gives a grittier look, and the Standard one a smoother. But picking up on those 'errors' is hard, and even being anal about it I'm still not sure if I'm seeing anything or making it up. If someone can point me the way.....

The saturation is not the same in both settings, and it definitly looks like contrast is not quite the same either, even though black and white levels are the same. Probably some colors are clipping as Carl noted, due to the saturation levels being elevated.

I'm unable to calibrate the differences out completely, so I can't tell for sure what causes the minute differences I still see in the image between the two settings. Saturation for hdmi color levels has to be calibrated to really compare both settings, and I am unable to do this with sufficient precision. The chroma level settings of the pio provide a bit of help but are really too crude and hue drifts to the red when chroma is elevated, probably indicating clipping. The real problem might be that it's not actually saturation (affecting all three colors) thats the culprit, but the transform used for the RGB conversion (affecting only red and green). For those who'll want to give it a try, the closest saturation settings for Standard with correct blue and green levels I could come up with is chroma two clicks shy of max and hue corrected one click down towards green.

Meanwhile, the Enhanced settings have more of a 3-D look with better "atmosphere", while Standard has more natural texture.

Wich one to choose......?

Carl,
I'm having trouble picturing what the alternate conversion math really does, but it is hard to believe that just lowering saturation on the display will return things back to "normal" color response as viewed on screen all across the range of colors.
--bob
Saturation and tint being analog controls, a lot of displays don't let you use them on digital video. I wonder if the pio's hue and chroma are digital or if the player converts to analog and back to apply changes.

ron,
I've never actually tried to learn how to fix one of these beasties myself, but I would suspect that aligning the laser would involve using a scope to measure it's response while playing back some sort of specialized tracking test disc. Presumably that's also how you would confirm whether the motor is tracking within suitable responsiveness specs at both ends of its range.

If your problem is rental discs, particularly discs mailed to you from mass rental outfits, then you may simply have run afoul of the fact that some of these discs are actually copies made with permission, but not made with the same quality controls as used by the first class studios. In particular, the center hole may be slightly off center thus forcing the player to do more severe motions to track properly because the disc is actually wobbling slightly. If you have a marginal motor, that may be enough to cause the problem.

Cleaning the rental disc may give the laser just that small extra bit of visibility it needs to track even though the motor is not quite up to snuff. Concentrate your cleaning efforts near the rim and near the center hole.

You have probably noticed the "layer change" delay that usually occurs at about 1 to 1 1/2 hours into playback. At the layer change the laser head is at one extreme of it's range. Near the beginning of the movie (and near the end if the movie has been compressed only so much as to completely fill the disc) the laser is at the other extreme of its range. These are the points where a weak motor is most likely to develop problems. So see if your problem is happening near the layer change, and see if it really is associated with just rental discs from mass rental outfits.

Now the player really SHOULD be able to handle those rental discs, so you may still want to try to fix it.

I don't know how you can lay your hands on a service manual.
--bob

So, it appears that there is indeed a problem outputting 480i. I, along with others, was hoping to have near SDI quality output by sending 480i to a processor like the VP30. The big question in my mind is should I continue to send 480i to the VP30 and live with this shortcoming or try some other resolution, say 480p. Any comments?

mskreis,
If you watch primarily movies, the de-interlacing in the 59avi seems to be really very good. Auto2 mode catches most issues, and only gets fooled if the movie drops in and out of presenting film mode flags like some of the older Disney computer animations (the flashing "#" in the second set of on-screen "Display" info indicates this) which you can counter by manually FORCING film mode for that movie by setting PureCinema to ON instead.

So sending HDMI 480p to a quality external scaler could be a win, so as to still take advantage of 1-1 pixel matching from the external scaler for example.

But I wouldn't give up on HDMI 480i just yet. The two choices we have now, either clipping BTB and Peak Whites, or some rounding errors in gray scale and possibly some color side effects that are not well understood yet, may very well be minor compared to the advantages of a better de-interlacer for a mix of movie and video frame rate DVDs in the external box.

It's tough to say.

I send HDMI/DVI 480p to a Fujitsu plasma whose own, excellent, internal scaling does the rest. I watch almost exclusively movie based DVDs and the results are really quite pleasing.

But there seems to be no doubt that this player needs to be deemed less than perfect for HDMI 480i unless and until Pioneer fixes this clipping flaw properly.

For folks with external scalers, COMPONENT 480i might be the way to go as the 59avi seems to have a quite reasonable analog video output stage. But I don't recall whether the BTB and Peak Whites stuff has been confirmed for Component 480i either.

It's definitely disappointing that Pioneer would go to the trouble of enabling HDMI 480i and then also cripple it this way.
--Bob

Carl,
Could you comment again on what you found when you changed JUST the IRE setting to 7.5 and the HDMI Color Adjust setting to "Enhanced" at HDMI 480i without any of the other corrective changes?
Sure, Bob.

By JUST changing the IRE setting to 7.5, video black (16) moves up to 32. However, video nominal white (235) stays at 235, so there is some compression happening of the values in between. The player will now pass 16-235, just like before, but we cram 0-15 in there as well, forcing some re-sampling. The BTB bar will be visible, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea.

Also, now that we know that "Enhanced" also alters color response coming out of the player, what do you think of the merit of trying to counter this by just changing Color, or even Color/Tint on the display? I.e., if we switch to "Enhanced" and then lower Color on the display, do you think that's a complete corrrection to what "Enhanced" did to the colors, or is it likely that some portions of the color gamut will still remain distorted.
I suck at explaining these things, but I'll take a stab at it...

Imagine a circle. It's shaded in different colors, red at the noon, blue at 4 o'clock and green at 8 o'clock. In the center of the circle you will have 0% saturation, representing white (D65). The saturation of the colors get greater the closer to the outer edge you get, so you will have 100% red/blue/green at the outer perimeter. In between noon, 4 and 8 you will have the secondary colors: yellow, cyan and magenta. The secondary colors are just a mix of the two primary colors that they are in between. This circle represents RGB color-space.

Now, imagine another circle inside this circle. It's 90% of the original circle's size and centered within the first circle.

The inner circle represents "Studio RGB" color space, and the outer circle represents "PC RGB" color space. If you visualized this correctly, you will see that the inner circle is capable of less color saturation than the outer circle.

When we are talking about "whiter than white", we are always referring to Component color space. In RGB, the correct terms would be "redder than red", "bluer than blue" and "greener than green", since there are no "white" values in RGB.

The space between the inner and outer circles is the "headroom" allocated in Component space for excursions due to rounding errors, extreme conditions, scaling etc. By selecting "PC RGB" color space in the 59Avi through the "HDMI Color Adjust: Enhanced" setting, you are using the "headroom" space for the nominal (16-235) Component values, making every color more saturated. You are stretching the nominal Component values all the way to the outer edge of the outer circle. This will cause clipping of all "redder than red", "bluer than blue" etc. By using "HDMI Color Adjust: Standard", you will preserve the "headroom" for excursion into the space between the inner and outer circles. However, if you run this player in HDMI 480i mode, this information is discarded, so you will never achieve full saturation.

Any display that accepts digital RGB data shouldn't need a color/tint control, since these controls SHOULD only affect the conversion from Component (YCbCr) to RGB. If there is a control present, it probably means that the display is converting RGB back to YCbCr internally as part of the video processing. If this is done right, it shouldn't really be a problem. Since the pixels are R/G/B, the display will still have to convert it back to RGB in the last stage. This feature can be used to bring the increased saturation caused by the "HDMI Color Adjust: Enhanced" down to where it's supposed to be, by controlling the internal processing.

Saturation and tint being analog controls, a lot of displays don't let you use them on digital video. I wonder if the pio's hue and chroma are digital or if the player converts to analog and back to apply changes.
The controls are not necessarily analog. The can be both analog and digital. What they do is control the conversion between Component color space and RGB color space.

The controls are not necessarily analog. The can be both analog and digital. What they do is control the conversion between Component color space and RGB color space.
You're right of course. And you're quite good at explaining these things. :)

mskreis,
But I wouldn't give up on HDMI 480i just yet. The two choices we have now, either clipping BTB and Peak Whites, or some rounding errors in gray scale and possibly some color side effects that are not well understood yet, may very well be minor compared to the advantages of a better de-interlacer for a mix of movie and video frame rate DVDs in the external box.
--Bob
Carl's post before last explains what I'm seeing color-wise with the Enhanced settings. The rest is really only a matter of re-calibration and if your display has color controls through hdmi you're all set. Otherwise the pio's controls can help out, but I don't know enough about them to make a claim.

For now, the rounding errors seem negligible compared to de-interlacing issues etc.

Carl,
Thanks for the explanation!

The color diagrams I've seen have an irregular shape (like a curved triangle, not regular like a circle) and my concern was that the math the 59avi was using for PC-style color conversion, would, say, bias the colors towards one of the primary colors instead of just stretching the range equally all around in order to implement the increased saturation -- or some other non-linearity that would be hard for a viewer to detect by eye.

And then lowering Color on the display (for a display with such adjusment) wouldn't counter that completely, so that although the overall average saturation is back to "normal", the colors are not identical to what you would have gotten if the 59avi had sent out the right stuff to begin with.

So let me ask it this way. Would you assume that a properly implemented Color control on a display WOULD INDEED likely correct the increased color saturation effects introduced by switching the 59avi to "Enhanced" mode -- barring minor, ignorable rounding errors of course? Or would you think that the combo of Enhanced on the 59avi plus Color reduction on the display must necessarily introduce some biases or non-linearities to the colors that could only be adjusted out by more sophisticated controls such as in a service menu?

Or let's put it another, more practical, way. If the 3 Avia color checkerboards to test Red, Green, and Blue Color level, and the corresponding 3 checkerboards for Tint showing the balance of the compliment colors are -- all 6 of them -- looking good after setting Enhanced and then re-adjusting Color (and Tint if necessary) on the display as best you can, is that enough? Or should we worry that there's some other non-linearity being introduced by this combo -- kind of like a gamma error, or mismatch of assumed and actual primary/secondary color points, or unexpected altering of "color temperature" that might introduce more subtle errors?

I.e., is there something the average user (not an ISF expert) can check with a calibration test disc to feel reassured that this combo of Enhanced plus reduced Color has, indeed, returned colors to "normal" -- as good as he would get using the DEFAULT Direct mode settings? Or are there likely some hidden color gotchas lurking in there?

--------------------------------------------------------

And ourdall,

Yes if you are viewing discs that the 59avi isn't de-interlacing as well as your processor, I can easily imagine that the minor rounding errors in Carl's settings would be far outweighed by freedom from de-interlacing glitches. With the two 59avi setting choices available for folks equipped to use a good external processor at HDMI 480i, I think there's no reason to abandon improved de-interlacing just because the data going to the processor is not "perfect".
--Bob

okay today I finally have some time to seriously play around with the settings.
To have it pass BTB in YCbCr 480i HDMI, u just need to move black level up. Any setting above the default middle will pass BTB bar in DVE. This is in IRE 0.

I do not know if it passes everything below 15 or just 10 as I dun have a better test material.

Now Bob/Carl can you make out what the pio is doing in YCbCr ?

c722,
If YCbCr output is clipping BTB by default in the 59avi, then raising black level on the player is likely just moving the BTB data up above the point where it is clipped by the player. Now you'll also need to lower black level on your display to compensate again so that the BTB data doesn't become, improperly, visible.

The thing is, there are only so many steps available for the data. There's no such thing as data below 0 or above 255 in this scheme, and there are no half steps or otherwise. So if you raise the black level in the player SOMETHING has to happen elsewhere as well. Either you are pushing data off the top (and thus losing it forever), or you are compressing the range so that now, say, pixels of original luminance in the 10-235 range, are sent out by the player in the fewer number of steps represented by the 16-235 range. If the player is ALSO clipping data below 16, then the original data from 10-15 is no longer clipped since you raised it up, but some of the steps must now be bunched together. I.e., there's no such thing as a pixel being sent out with a digital luminance value of "20.125". It's going to be sent out as exactly 20 or 21.

So you'll need a measuring setup like Carl is using to tell precisely what raising black level on the player is really doing from one end to the other of the gray scale. However, by looking at gray ramps and switching between paired settings (i.e., a change on the player AND a compensating change on the display) you MAY be able to discern any signifcant banding problems, or clipping at the white end of the ramp, by eye.

Again, I can't display HDMI 480i with my stuff, so I can't help here.
--Bob

Bob,

Sounds like you are referring to the CIE 1931 xy diagram. It plots in xy space, which is for chromaticity only. My circle example is really only a slice of a cylinder in RGB space. Imagine a spinal cord going through the center of the cylinder, that would be your grayscale tracking. The bottom of the cylinder is black, and the top is 100% brightness.

Setting color decoder with the Avia flashing patterns will work the same way no matter what the saturation level is. You can set color decoder with 50%, 70% or 100% saturated patterns, it doesn't make a difference, since you are setting the relative saturation between the colors.

When I get a chance I'll compare the gamma, primaries and secondaries for the two different settings. I don't see any reason why gamma or grayscale would change though, but it can't hurt to take a look.

I use the 59avi at HDMI 480p connected HDMI to DVI into my Fujitsu Plasma.

With even the best DVD transfers I have the nagging suspicion that there's still a little more noise in the image than there should be despite anything I do to refine the various display levels.

Normally I disdain noise reduction in these players, feeling that it will damage the image from the best quality DVDs. And indeed the Pioneer default settings for HDMI Direct mode have both YNR (gray scale noise reduction) and CNR (color noise reduction) set all the way to minimum -- indicating that even Pioneer feels that produces a purer result.

But despite that, I decided to experiment with setting YNR 2 steps up from minimum, and CNR also 2 steps up from minimum in conjunction with my best set of Fujitsu level adjustments and I believe it's a win! Scenes in better quality DVDs that struck me as not quite "perfect" before do indeed seem more transparent.

The choice of 2 steps here was just a guess.

So here's the problem: How do you tell when you've turned on TOO MUCH noise reduction?

It's possible that only 1 step would be a wiser choice or perhaps 3 or 4 steps would be safe, but how do you tell? The image changes are very VERY subtle.

Does anyone know of a good test using the common DVD calibration test discs that would show the value of noise reduction in the player, and would also show when you have turned on TOO MUCH noise reduction?

The only one I know of is the pair of noise reduction tests on the HQV benchmark DVD and it appears way too subjective to be much use.
--Bob

I found some NR to be beneficial on some discs, mostly with two kind of discs: too soft/filtered ones and very good but very grainy ones.

For the soft/filtered ones I use the pio's 'enhanced' presets as base, (YNR and CNR two steps up, detail in the middle and hdmi detail two shy of max, if I remember well) and apply my usual settings re. IRE setup and prog motion etc. The detail settings sharpen the picture, while the NR settings clean up the sharpening artifacts introduced by this. It is a nice gimmick.

For the good but grainy ones, I use the 'Direct' presets and use YNR on 3 steps from min, CNR 2 steps. Anymore and fine detail starts being lost.

I didn't find any test discs with useful tests, but most any disc with high detail levels should do provided they are not too 'clean' i.e. 'The Birds' from the R1 Hitchcock Masterpiece Collection is a good disc to test this on.

Interesting discussion. The picture I normally get on newer DVD transfers is so clean coming out of the 59avi, that I have never felt the need to increase NR. But some older/poorer transfers may benefit, so I will keep this tweak in mind. Thanks Bob!

Rob,
I just reviewed a few more of my "good" DVDs and I'm feeling more comfortable that this minimal introduction of YNR and CNR (2 steps up from none) over HDMI 480p is a win.

I saw no negatives and got the distinct feeling that a few scenes were cleaner in some subtle way even though I'd never really noticed noise in them before.

The problem is, I'm not sure I'd really be able to spot excess noise reduction unless it was pretty blatant -- e.g., overall blurring and loss of clarity.

This YNR/CNR setting has no effect on the excellent gray scale and color resolution and sharpness over HDMI as tested with Avia Pro's resolution and sharpness tests.

By the way, unlike ourdall I've still got all the 59avi's sharpness and detail controls at their default settings for HDMI Direct. So I'm ONLY introducing YNR and CNR at this point.
--Bob

Rob,
By the way, unlike ourdall I've still got all the 59avi's sharpness and detail controls at their default settings for HDMI Direct. So I'm ONLY introducing YNR and CNR at this point.
--Bob
I should clarify that I'm currently using three different NR settings:
1. 'normal' is basically hdmi direct setttings.
2. 'NR for good and detailed but a bit noisy dvd's', based on hdmi direct settings, the only change is the settings is YNR at 3 clicks and CNR at 2 klicks from minimum.
3. 'bad and soft dvd's': preset 'enhanced'.

These settings are supplementary: you will have to put them in over your usual settings re. 'auto 2' 'IRE', 'hdmi color' etc.

While looking for potential problems with my recent YNR/CNR change described above, I rediscovered something important that bears repeating.

If you are connected to a widescreen display, the HDMI Settings portion of Initial Settings / Options / HDMI Settings provides you with two useful choices -- 16:9 Wide or 16:9 Compressed. [NOTE: There are similarly named settings ELSEWHERE in the 59avi menus that only alter the player's ANALOG video outputs. Only by making this change in Initial Settings / Options / HDMI Settings will you affect the player's HDMI output.]

"16:9 Wide" sends both 16:9 and 4:3 content out as if it were 16:9. ANY 4:3 content viewed this way LOOKS stretched but in reality it is just that the 720 pixels across each line are each interpreted as "wider" by the display. So this setting does no actual processing in the 59avi and simply preserves the 720 horizontal resolution of EITHER the 16:9 or 4:3 content coming off the DVD regardless of which resolution you are sending out from the 59avi. Meanwhile you will probably also use a Stretch/Zoom setting on your display to add black pillar boxes to either side so as to restore the normal 4:3 aspect ratio to 4:3 content. A fixed pixel display does this as part of it's scaling operation to get the image up to its native resolution for example. And thus it has extra pixels across each line to devote to the black pillar box bars without having to skimp on the original 720 horizontal resolution coming off the disc.

Meanwhile, if you set the 59avi to "16:9 Compressed" it will automatically detect 4:3 content and produce its OWN black pillar box bars on either side of the image so as to present it to the display as if it were a 16:9 image. The display's stretch/zoom would be then be set to it's normal setting as if viewing REAL 16:9 content, and the original 4:3 image would appear in proper shape in the middle of the pillar box bars already generated by the 59avi.

So it would appear that you are free to choose either setup. Either let the 59avi handle it for you, or have the 59avi send out the image unmolested and let your display handle it for you. Letting the 59avi handle it for you has the added advantage that it does it AUTOMATICALLY -- detecting 4:3 imagery, even if the DVD switches back and forth between 16:9 and 4:3 as sometimes happens when viewing "Extras" added to the DVD. Whereas if you want your display to handle it, you willl likely have to make a manual change of Stretch/Zoom on the display each time the incoming content changes.

Thus the temptation is to let the 59avi do it.

BUT BEWARE! If you are sending out either HDMI 480i or HDMI 480p, setting the 59avi to add it's own black pillar box bars for 4:3 content will produce a SIGNIFICANT reduction in horizontal resolution!

The reason is simple. When the 59avi is sending out HDMI 480i or HDMI 480p it only sends 720 pixels of digital data for each line. That matches the data coming off the DVD, which is fine if the DVD contains 16:9 content OR if the 59avi is set to 16:9 Wide mode for 4:3 content. But if the 59avi uses a bunch of those pixels to form black pillar box bars (i.e., when set to 16:9 Compressed mode and viewing 4:3 content) it must squeeze the REAL data representing the movie image itself into the fewer pixels left to it in the middle of each line!

If you do resolution checks in this mode, say with Avia, the loss of horizontal resolution is immediately apparent. And since color data is ALREADY coming off the DVD at reduced resolution, this additional loss of horizontal resolution has an even worse impact on color resolution.

So why does the 59avi offer this option? Well that's simple, too. If you have the 59avi set to output 720p or 1080i, then it also is sending out a corresponding increase in horizontal pixel count. Now if you tell it to use some of those pixels to create black pillar box bars, there are STILL enough pixels left in the middle of each line to preserve the original movie resolution.

So this is what you should do:

1) If using HDMI 720p or HDMI 1080i feel free to set the 59avi to 16:9 Compressed in the the Initial Settings / Options / HDMI Settings menu, so as to take advantage of the convenience of automatic detection. Please note that this setting is INDEPENDENT of the OTHER, similarly named menu setting elsewhere that only alters ANALOG video output. Your display Stretch/Zoom would then be left in its normal mode for viewing normal 16:9 content all the time regardless of which type of content is coming off the DVD. The 59avi will even switch automatically on a scene by scene basis if that's how the DVD was put together.

2) However, if using HDMI 480i or HDMI 480p, you really should set the 59avi to 16:9 Wide in the Initial Settings / Options / HDMI Settings menu, so as to preserve horizontal resolution. Again note that this is a separate and distinct setting from the similarly named setting elsewhere in the menus that adjusts only the 59avi's ANALOG video outputs. You will then, most likely, need to manually change your display's Stretch/Zoom mode to the appropriate mode for the content currently playing off your DVD. When your display is set to create black pillar box bars, the display will use its NATIVE resolution to do it (or simply move the scan beam in a smaller range in the middle of the screen for CRTs) and thus there will be no loss of real movie resolution. The preserved resolution makes a noticeable difference in real movies.
--Bob

Bob- Sweet. :)

Rob- Maybe you could link post 1706 in the very 1st thread too?

Bob- I was thinking about your Q about NR. The only thing I could suggest is that if you think 2 clicks up is pretty good for both, maybe on a few DVDs, push it all the way and see if there's any badness. At the point where you start to see bad effects, back it off to 1/2 in between that point and 2 clicks up and see if that might be the best compromise. Be neat to try that with both good and poorly authored DVDs. I do appreciate you and ourdall being so interested in these settings and passing along your observations to the rest of us.

I always use this approach when I set brightness, contrast, etc. I want to know where it looks "good" as well as where it looks "bad", then I can *better* choose the final setting.

And ourdall,

Yes if you are viewing discs that the 59avi isn't de-interlacing as well as your processor, I can easily imagine that the minor rounding errors in Carl's settings would be far outweighed by freedom from de-interlacing glitches. With the two 59avi setting choices available for folks equipped to use a good external processor at HDMI 480i, I think there's no reason to abandon improved de-interlacing just because the data going to the processor is not "perfect".
--Bob

I think it would be wise for everyone to identify whether they are using RGB or YCbCr when discussing HDMI at 480i. For those of us following this thread, we know that "Carl's trick" only applies to HDMI 480i RGB. However, for those not following the thread closely, they might inadvertantly apply Carl's settings when using HDMI 480i YCbCr. We don't know what effect this would have because Carl does not have the capability to measure this configuration. I know it is mentioned several places, but you know how folks only read what they think is important. Anyway, that is my $.02. ;)

Mark

I use DVI cabling, so YCbCr is not an option for me. The connection handshake will discover that DVI wants RGB and thus a conversion to RGB must happen at some point in the 59avi.

Bob, I have been wondering (without bothering to check the manual or menu system) how to select the YCbCr output of the 59-avi. It would seem you are saying that the display is responsible for telling the source device what to send? I wonder if there are source devices out there which can specify the HDMI output format.

You might experiment and see if your HDMI processor/display has an option to FORCE YCbCr rather than just accepting whichever the 59avi would rather send out. If you can make the processor/display say it only understands YCbCr, then the 59avi will discover that stubborness during the connection handshake, and the various 59avi settings might react differently -- or it might just refuse to make the connection.

--Bob

I have a Pioneer Pro 1130HD plasma, and it has the option of selecting the HDMI input format it accepts. The options are "Component 4:4:4", "Component 4:2:2", "RGB", and "Automatic". The plasma manual does not indicate the bit depth of the YCbCr signals accepted, but the 59-avi is only 8-bit, correct?

Mark

giomania,
I don't know of a way to force the 59avi to only put out YCbCr if the display is willing to accept either.

I'm also not sure of the bit depth it would use. But when the 59avi was launched, HDMI using more than 8 bits in the output data stream (as opposed to whatever might be used internally prior to that) was an optional HDMI feature that most all of the new crop of HDMI devices had not yet tried to implement.
--Bob

The 59avi doesn't do 10bit video output so RGB, YCbCr 4:4:4, or YCbCr 4:2:2 are all 8bit. The latter saving some bandwidth if it's used and the first two are 8bit only via HDMI. The 79avi does 10bit video, so only YCbCr 4:2:2 can do that via HDMI. Of course, 10bit video isn't necessary for 480i.

larry

I think it would be wise for everyone to identify whether they are using RGB or YCbCr when discussing HDMI at 480i. For those of us following this thread, we know that "Carl's trick" only applies to HDMI 480i RGB. However, for those not following the thread closely, they might inadvertantly apply Carl's settings when using HDMI 480i YCbCr. We don't know what effect this would have because Carl does not have the capability to measure this configuration. I know it is mentioned several places, but you know how folks only read what they think is important. Anyway, that is my $.02. ;)

Mark

To be sure we are all on the same page, which setting are you changing for YCbCr vs RGB?

To be sure we are all on the same page, which setting are you changing for YCbCr vs RGB?

If I understand your question, you want to know which setting in the 59-avi is being changed. From recent posts, it would seem the HDMI Color Enhanced -vs- Standard changes between the RGB and YCbCr respectively, but ONLY if your display can be forced to accept only YCbCr via HDMI.

I don't have any equipment to determine which HDMI video signal the 59-avi is sending out. It is a shame, since my Pioneer Pro 1130HD plasma can force the acceptance of either YCbCr 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:2:2. It would be nice to get to the bottom of this question.

Mark

from the VP30 it shows YCbCr444 for all HDMI connections, 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, under "Standard". In "Enhanced" it's obviously RGB.

I dun think the pio can do YCbCr422.

If I understand your question, you want to know which setting in the 59-avi is being changed. From recent posts, it would seem the HDMI Color Enhanced -vs- Standard changes between the RGB and YCbCr respectively, but ONLY if your display can be forced to accept only YCbCr via HDMI.

I don't have any equipment to determine which HDMI video signal the 59-avi is sending out. It is a shame, since my Pioneer Pro 1130HD plasma can force the acceptance of either YCbCr 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:2:2. It would be nice to get to the bottom of this question.

Mark

I have the 59avi connected to a DVDO VP30 video processor at 480i over HDMI. The VP30 shows what type of signal is being received from the 59avi. When the 59 is set to "standard" the signal is YCbCr 4:4:4. When the 59 is set "enhanced" the VP30 shows RGB. This is with the VP30 set to "auto detect" the signal type.

I can change the VP30 "auto detect" option. I can set it manually to RGB or YCbCr 4:4:4. It I have the pio set to "enhanced" and I tell the VP30 that the signal is RGB the picture looks the same as in 'auto" mode. But if I tell the VP30 the incoming signal is YCbCr 4:4:4 (which it is not), I get completely wrong colors on screen.

Likewise, if I set the pio to "Standard" and I tell the VP30 that the signal is YCbCr 4:4:4 the picture looks the same as in 'auto" mode. But if I tell the VP30 the incoming signal is RGB (again, it's not), I get completely wrong colors on screen.

Hope this helps.

By the way, I'm still trying to decide which looks better - using RGB with Carl's settings or using "standard" at YCbCr 4:4:4 (and IRE=0). I don't have any test gear like Carl so I'm relying on my less than perfect eyesight and DVE. Right now I do feel that I'm getting a better picture with YCbCr 4:4:4.

Using "standard" I can adjust the black level on the 59avi to see the BTB bar. I know it has been said the this may be just pushing the blacks higher up the scale only to need to be pushed back down at the PJ. But I don't think we know this conclusively yet. So I adjusted the black level on the 59avi just to where the BTB bar is just barely visible against the background. In my simple-minded way I'm thinking that this is no different than the BTB adjustment that I would normally make on the PJ. In my case I only moved the black level one notch to the right. With the DVD gray scale ramps on screen , I also did the same thing to the white level so I would get WTW. I needed to move the white level 1 tick to the left.

If it turns out I’m not really getting BTB and WTW ( and as Bob said this is likely the case), then I guess I could live with that. But it would be nice to know if there is any work around. And I wonder is the Pio 79avi has this same issue. If not, I might seriously consider it.

Mike

If I understand your question, you want to know which setting in the 59-avi is being changed. From recent posts, it would seem the HDMI Color Enhanced -vs- Standard changes between the RGB and YCbCr respectively, but ONLY if your display can be forced to accept only YCbCr via HDMI.

I don't have any equipment to determine which HDMI video signal the 59-avi is sending out. It is a shame, since my Pioneer Pro 1130HD plasma can force the acceptance of either YCbCr 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:2:2. It would be nice to get to the bottom of this question.

Mark I would guess it is sending YCbCr 4:4:4 because the 59avi is 8bit only video and YCbCr 4:4:4 is an easy convert to/from RGB 4:4:4. In this case, also, it really doesn't make much of a difference if it is 4:4:4 or 4:2:2.

larry

Edit: Post collision. And I guessed right. :)

Mike,
As I said in a post earlier, lower the black level on the player and if you can adjust the brightness on your display (higher) and still see the BTB bar, then it is passing BTB data.

larry

Mike,
As I said in a post earlier, lower the black level on the player and if you can adjust the brightness on your display (higher) and still see the BTB bar, then it is passing BTB data.

larry

larry,

I see what you're saying; I tried it. When the black level on the player is lowered I cannot get BTB by adjusting the PJ. :(

So for now I guess I'll just put the black/white levels on the 59 back to their default middle position and live without BTB/WTW.

Mike

I wonder is the Pio 79avi has this same issue. If not, I might seriously consider it.

Mike

Mike, thanks for checking this out. Too bad you don't live near Chicago, since I have a 79-avi sitting in the box for when I complete my HT. Anyone in the Chicago area with a VP-30? I would be curious to know how the 79-avi performs.

Mark

from the VP30 it shows YCbCr444 for all HDMI connections, 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, under "Standard". In "Enhanced" it's obviously RGB.

I dun think the pio can do YCbCr422.

Thanks for checking!

Mike, thanks for checking this out. Too bad you don't live near Chicago, since I have a 79-avi sitting in the box for when I complete my HT. Anyone in the Chicago area with a VP-30? I would be curious to know how the 79-avi performs.

Mark

Mark,

I'm a Chicagoan transplanted to So. California who still misses Chi-Town (except the weather :) ). Will be looking forward to your experience with the 79avi.

Thanks,
Mike

I believe the Samsung SP-H710 uses a Faroudja processor which can't properly deinterlace 1080i, so which would be a better resolution to feed it, 720p or 1080i. With a 1080i signal would the DV-59avi still be performing deinterlacing?

I believe the Samsung SP-H710 uses a Faroudja processor which can't properly deinterlace 1080i, so which would be a better resolution to feed it, 720p or 1080i. With a 1080i signal would the DV-59avi still be performing deinterlacing?

Yes, the Pioneer would still be doing deinterlacing before scaling the signal to 1080i.

As for which resolution will look better, try them both and see what your eyes tell you. I have a 720p DLP projector and 720p out of the Elite looks a little better to me, and allows perfect pixel matching.

Thanks Rob. Actually I don't own the DV-59avi yet, the only thing holding me back is the imperfect deinterlacing for video sources such as music videos and TV on DVD. I'm used to Faroudja deinterlacing. One solution would be to run both HDMI and component to my projector and then let the projector deinterlace video source and use the HDMI at 720p for film source. Will the player output both at the same time or would I need to switch the output configuration every time?

Thanks Rob. Actually I don't own the DV-59avi yet, the only thing holding me back is the imperfect deinterlacing for video sources such as music videos and TV on DVD. I'm used to Faroudja deinterlacing. One solution would be to run both HDMI and component to my projector and then let the projector deinterlace video source and use the HDMI at 720p for film source. Will the player output both at the same time or would I need to switch the output configuration every time?

You could also send out 480i signals via HDMI.

Thanks Rob. Actually I don't own the DV-59avi yet, the only thing holding me back is the imperfect deinterlacing for video sources such as music videos and TV on DVD. I'm used to Faroudja deinterlacing. One solution would be to run both HDMI and component to my projector and then let the projector deinterlace video source and use the HDMI at 720p for film source. Will the player output both at the same time or would I need to switch the output configuration every time?

Not sure, but I am guessing you would have to change it each time. An easier solution would be as giomania indicated: just send a 480i signal to the pj via HDMI and let the Samsung do the deinterlacing for your video based sources.

Unfortunately the Samsung doesn't accept 480i. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately the Samsung doesn't accept 480i. :rolleyes:

D'oh!

D'oh!

Ditto!

How common is it for 720p projectors to NOT accept a 480i signal? Now I am wondering if my DWIN does.

Thanks Rob. Actually I don't own the DV-59avi yet, the only thing holding me back is the imperfect deinterlacing for video sources such as music videos and TV on DVD. I'm used to Faroudja deinterlacing. One solution would be to run both HDMI and component to my projector and then let the projector deinterlace video source and use the HDMI at 720p for film source. Will the player output both at the same time or would I need to switch the output configuration every time?

Going back to this question, what good would it do to also use component if your pj doesn't accept 480i? You will still have to feed it 480p out of the component connection, which means the Elite will still be doing the deinterlacing.

Going back to this question, what good would it do to also use component if your pj doesn't accept 480i? You will still have to feed it 480p out of the component connection, which means the Elite will still be doing the deinterlacing.

Perhaps he meant it doesn't take 480i over HDMI? I would think any display device would accept 480i over YPbPr (component), but ya' never know.

Mark

Perhaps he meant it doesn't take 480i over HDMI? I would think any display device would accept 480i over YPbPr (component), but ya' never know.

Mark

Good point.

Perhaps he meant it doesn't take 480i over HDMI? I would think any display device would accept 480i over YPbPr

Correct, 480i over component would be deinterlaced by the Faroudja chip, then I would run 720p over HDMI-->DVI.

Hi all,

I know that DVD+R DL is not an officially supported format by the DV59 but I have been playing properly finalized discs successfully for some time. A short time ago, my player started freezing when I turned on the unit and it would take forever to go from one menu screen to the next. Stuff like "chapter" or "title" blink on the player until it successfully navigates to the next screen. When the movie plays, playback is normal unless you try to navigate using rewind, fast forward, etc. When I turn the player off, it almost takes a full minute when it used to only take like 5 seconds.

My one workaround was to turn on the player, hit the stop button, enable Pure Audio, disable Pure Audio, and then all DVD functions work normally with no freezing (but the player still takes forever to turn off). This has to be done every time I power the unit up.

Someone else in this thread had a similar problem but his solution was returning the unit for a brand new one. I was wondering if anyone else had a similar situation where playing DVD+R DL may have possibly damaged the unit? The Pioneer website warned against playing DualDiscs but I don't own any and the only music discs I play are redbook CD's, hybrid SACD, and DVD-Audio. Any ideas or did this former flagship player just break down?

larry,

I see what you're saying; I tried it. When the black level on the player is lowered I cannot get BTB by adjusting the PJ. :(

So for now I guess I'll just put the black/white levels on the 59 back to their default middle position and live without BTB/WTW.

Mike

I have been thinking about this situation, as I recently performed a user calibration with my Pioneer Elite 1130HD plasma after "breaking it in" for 200 hours. What effect does changing the black level setup from 0 to 7.5 IRE have on passing BTB or WTW data? I used to know this, but cannot jog my memory.

If anyone has an 1130HD and the 59-avi, here is a post I placed in the 1130 forum which contains all the sordid details. I should have changed the IRE level as well to see what effect it might have. Perhaps I will do that tonight before Lost airs.

Post from the 1130 forum:

I performed the "calibration" of my 1130HD after 200 hours of break-in time. I am using a Pioneer Elite DV-59avi DVD player connected via HDMI and sending out digital component (YCbCr) at 480i resolution to the panel. I used both Avia, Video Essentials, and Digital Video Essentials calibration DVD's.

Interestingly, I could set contrast as high as 50! At 51, the whiter than white bars in the Avia test pattern disappeared. I didn't really feel comfortable keeping it that high, so I set it at 30. I'm wondering what experience others have had setting contrast with the avia pattern.

Also, I'm confused about the Color Management controls, which I have not used yet. The way I see it, you would use those controls instead of color and tint. If I recall correctly, "Color" adjusts red, green, and blue all at once, and "Tint" adjusts cyan and magenta at once. The Color Management controls provide individual control over red, green, blue, cyan, magenta, and yellow. I'd be curious to hear if anyone else has used the Color Management controls and how you adjusted them.

Thanks for any input.

Mark

I thought I would include my settings. I copied them from Excel, so not everything lines up correctly.


Application DVD
Equipment DV-59avi
Connection Type HDMI YCbCr at 0 IRE
Date 5/21/2006

Main Settings
A/V Selection Pure

Contrast 30

Brightness -1

Color 3

Tint -4

Sharpness 0

Pro Adjust Settings
Pure Cinema ADV

Color Detail
Color Temp Low
R High 0
G High 0
B High 0
R Low 0
G Low 0
B Low 0

CTI Off

Color Management
R 0
Y 0
G 0
C 0
B 0
M 0

NR
DNR Off
MPEG NR Off

DRE
Dynamic Contrast High
Black Level On
ACL Off
Gamma 2 (Now at 3...see below)



I recently researched the aspects of gamma, and I was wondering what effect changing the settings on the 1130 HD might have. When I performed my initial calibration above, I had noticed something when viewing a vertical ramp pattern in Avia: The two bars on the extreme right of the picture were displayed as one black bar. In other words, I was seeing one black vertical bar when there should have been two black bars with different brightness levels (0 and 10 IRE, I think).

From my research on gamma, I knew the different settings might allow both bars to be displayed. As it turns out, this was correct. A gamma setting of 3 revealed (ever so slightly) the differences between the bars. I also tried different DRE settings of Dynamic Contrast, Black Level, and ACL, but they had no noticeable effect on this particular pattern. I re-checked the brightness setting with the appropriate test pattern, and I didn't need to change the setting.

Next, I wanted to see the effect on the top end of the gray scale, so I checked the contrast pattern in Avia. This time, I could only raise contrast to 42 or so before the whiter than white bars disappeared. I'm wondering what experience others have had setting contrast with the avia pattern, as I just leave it at 30 even though I can raise it higher.

I also wanted to try and understand the Color Management controls. I displayed the color bars in Avia and ran the controls up and down, but could not detect any changes in colors. Next, I displayed Avia's full field color patterns and ran the controls up and down. On these patterns, I noticed changes, and they were very subtle. That said, I still do not know what utility the Color Management controls have.

Mark

Hi, Mark

The Color Management controls on the Pioneer are for gamut adjustment. You can re-align each primary (RGB) and secondary (CMY) to match whatever standard you want to implement (usually SMPTE-C or HDTV). All they do is define the maximum saturation for each color, and where on the CIE chart it's located. You will need a color analyzer to do this correctly.

There are three things that interact to determine what color a particular pixel with have: gray scale, color decoder and gamut. If your gray scale is calibrated to D65, color decoder is implemented correctly, and your primaries and secondaries are in the right spots, you will have reference colors (a good thing). If any of the three variables are off, you will not get the correct colors. Color and Tint control the color decoder part of the equation. Assuming the set doesn't have any red/green push, calibrating grayscale and setting color/tint with Avia/DVE should get you pretty accurate.

Regarding contrast, setting it to the point of white clipping may be a little extreme with a bright panel. If you have a light meter, aim for 25-30 Foot lamberts. If you don't have one, just set it according to your preference (while avoiding white clipping of course!). If you get eyestrain when watching for long periods in the dark, contrast is probably set too high. You could also consider a bias light behind the set to help with eyestrain and make black levels look better.

Hi, Mark

The Color Management controls on the Pioneer are for gamut adjustment. You can re-align each primary (RGB) and secondary (CMY) to match whatever standard you want to implement (usually SMPTE-C or HDTV). All they do is define the maximum saturation for each color, and where on the CIE chart it's located. You will need a color analyzer to do this correctly.

There are three things that interact to determine what color a particular pixel with have: gray scale, color decoder and gamut. If your gray scale is calibrated to D65, color decoder is implemented correctly, and your primaries and secondaries are in the right spots, you will have reference colors (a good thing). If any of the three variables are off, you will not get the correct colors. Color and Tint control the color decoder part of the equation. Assuming the set doesn't have any red/green push, calibrating grayscale and setting color/tint with Avia/DVE should get you pretty accurate.

Regarding contrast, setting it to the point of white clipping may be a little extreme with a bright panel. If you have a light meter, aim for 25-30 Foot lamberts. If you don't have one, just set it according to your preference (while avoiding white clipping of course!). If you get eyestrain when watching for long periods in the dark, contrast is probably set too high. You could also consider a bias light behind the set to help with eyestrain and make black levels look better.

Carl, thanks for the info. The panel is pretty bright, and most of the owners have contrast around 30, which is what I feel comfortable with. I have a bias light behind the set as well, and have not experienced any eyestrain.

I am using the "Low" color temp setting, and the Pioneer is supposed to be pretty close to D65. However, I never read any reviews of which color temp setting corresponds to the D65, but everyone else uses "Low", so I am just following the herd, so to speak.

Can you comment on the effect of changing the black level setup in the 59-avi from 0 to 7.5 IRE when using HDMI (YCbCr) at 480i? Alas, I just remembered, you cannot test YCbCr on your setup. Anyway, maybe you can pontificate on what should happen to the video signal when changing that parameter.

Thanks for your help.

Mark

[pontification on]

Changing IRE from 0 to 7.5 in "Standard" mode would most likely raise your black level from digital 16 to digital 32 or so. This would expose BTB data that would otherwise be clipped by the player, but it would cause a compression of the signal range. With IRE 0, 16->235 would get passed unmolested, with IRE 7.5, 0->235 would get crammed into the 16->235 range with some banding as a possible side effect.

[pontification off]

[pontification on]

Changing IRE from 0 to 7.5 in "Standard" mode would most likely raise your black level from digital 16 to digital 32 or so. This would expose BTB data that would otherwise be clipped by the player, but it would cause a compression of the signal range. With IRE 0, 16->235 would get passed unmolested, with IRE 7.5, 0->235 would get crammed into the 16->235 range with some banding as a possible side effect.

[pontification off]

Excellent, Smithers! (I mean, Carl) ;) .

So, the black level setup parameter of IRE 0 will maintain the correct levels, assuming the player is behaving correctly. I thought that was correct, but I had forgotten the details. I was not able to set brightness with the Video Essentials PLUGE pattern, but I managed with the Avia patterns.

I seem to remember there was some "issue" with the Video Essentials PLUGE pattern. Or was the "issue" the fact that DVD players were not being designed to correctly display the pattern, and Avia developed a more forgiving pattern?

Do you ever travel to Chicago? I wouldn't mind having you calibrate my plasma.

Mark

[pontification on]

Changing IRE from 0 to 7.5 in "Standard" mode would most likely raise your black level from digital 16 to digital 32 or so. This would expose BTB data that would otherwise be clipped by the player, but it would cause a compression of the signal range. With IRE 0, 16->235 would get passed unmolested, with IRE 7.5, 0->235 would get crammed into the 16->235 range with some banding as a possible side effect.

[pontification off]

Are you saying that the 59avi clips BTB data when set to 0 IRE? I can see the BTB bar perfectly fine on the Digital Video Essentials disc, with IRE set at 0.

Are you saying that the 59avi clips BTB data when set to 0 IRE? I can see the BTB bar perfectly fine on the Digital Video Essentials disc, with IRE set at 0.

Interesting, I cannot see the BTB bar on the PLUGE pattern from the original Video Essentials. However, as I posted above, I there were problems with that particular pattern. Whether it was the pattern itself or the players which were at fault, I do not recall. I did not check Digital Video Essentials (DVE) which I also have. I used the Avia patterns to set contrast, brightness, color, tint, and sharpness. I have to check out DVE this weekend and report back whether or not I can see the BTB bar. Which specific pattern in DVE did you use?

Now that I think about it, doesn't the Avia pattern have three bars? If so, I don't think I saw all three, but cannot recall for certain.

Mark

Interesting, I cannot see the BTB bar on the PLUGE pattern from the original Video Essentials. However, as I posted above, I there were problems with that particular pattern. Whether it was the pattern itself or the players which were at fault, I do not recall. I did not check Digital Video Essentials (DVE) which I also have. I used the Avia patterns to set contrast, brightness, color, tint, and sharpness. I have to check out DVE this weekend and report back whether or not I can see the BTB bar. Which specific pattern in DVE did you use?

Now that I think about it, doesn't the Avia pattern have three bars? If so, I don't think I saw all three, but cannot recall for certain.

Mark

I don't recall exactly what the pattern is called, but it is the one that has a vertical BTB bar on the left AND right side. I can check the exact chapter if needed.

Are you saying that the 59avi clips BTB data when set to 0 IRE? I can see the BTB bar perfectly fine on the Digital Video Essentials disc, with IRE set at 0.
If you are running "HDMI Direct" settings, my player clips BTB and WTW over HDMI/RGB. Other people report this being a problem with HDMI/YCbCr as well. If you muck with the black level and white level controls, you can get it to pass BTB over HDMI. If you get it to work with "HDMI Direct" settings, there may be some firmware difference.

Now that I think about it, doesn't the Avia pattern have three bars? If so, I don't think I saw all three, but cannot recall for certain.
Mark
Yes, three bars on Avia, two above black and one below black.

Avia does not have any BTB info on the disc that I know. The pattern with the two moving black bars and two moving white bars has each set of bars very close to the "extreme" on either end, but not beyond. Each bar on either end is a couple "values" apart. DVE does have BTB info in multiple patterns on the disc.

Edit: Post collision: Carl, you must be talking about Avia Pro. The "regular" (some years old now) Avia does not have BTB info on the disc - at least I've never seen it on the moving bars pattern. :) I'm pretty sure Guy Kuo, some time ago, told us what the digital values were on the pattern - at least the pattern I mentioned.

larry

Avia does not have any BTB info on the disc that I know. The pattern with the two moving black bars and two moving white bars has each set of bars very close to the "extreme" on either end, but not beyond. Each bar on either end is a couple "values" apart. DVE does have BTB info in multiple patterns on the disc.

Edit: Post collision: Carl, you must be talking about Avia Pro. The "regular" (some years old now) Avia does not have BTB info on the disc - at least I've never seen it on the moving bars pattern. :) I'm pretty sure Guy Kuo, some time ago, told us what the digital values were on the pattern - at least the pattern I mentioned.

larry

So it may be that VE and DVE have the correct patterns to check for BTB, but Avia made it "easy" for all the players that won't pass BTB data. Is that about right?

If so, I am not getting BTB over HDMI YCbCr at 480i with the 59-avi, because I cannot see the BTB bar on the VE PLUGE pattern. As I mentioned, I have yet to check DVE. I am using the HDMI Direct settings copied into Memory 1 with Auto 2 selected; nothing else was changed.

IIRC, the 59-avi passed the BTB test over HDMI in the Secrets review, so what gives? We know for a fact it won't pass it over HDMI RGB at 480i thanks to Carl. Further, I think we are pretty certain it won't pass BTB over HDMI YCbCr at 480i either.

Mark

Edit: Post collision: Carl, you must be talking about Avia Pro.
Yeah, that's what I meant. Haven't used the old Avia in years. Sorry about the confusion.

Are you saying that the 59avi clips BTB data when set to 0 IRE? I can see the BTB bar perfectly fine on the Digital Video Essentials disc, with IRE set at 0.
Rob, if you are running 480p,720p or 1080i you will be OK. It's only 480i that suffers from this problem. That's maybe why the Secrets review didn't see this...

Rob, if you are running 480p,720p or 1080i you will be OK. It's only 480i that suffers from this problem. That's maybe why the Secrets review didn't see this...

I was going to respond to your earlier post, and I was going to point this out again, so you took the words right out of my mouth. I think it is important to point out that this BTB issue is only with the 480i output.

Are you saying that the 59avi clips BTB data when set to 0 IRE?

I thought it's already been confirmed by both Carl and Kris that the 59AVi does pass BTB?

I thought it's already been confirmed by both Carl and Kris that the 59AVi does pass BTB?

It does. Read the other posts following mine, Kevin, and you will see they were ONLY talking about 480i.

I just picked up a Pioneer dv-59avi and love it except for one big issue I've been having.

When I play SACD only discs (such as Beck: Sea Change), both SACD stereo and multichannel work great. However, for my Hybrid SACDs, it will only play the CD portion, no SACD playback at all for stereo or multichannel.

I have read the manual front to back (page 73 in particular) and did what I could to troubleshoot (tried both 2-channel and multi in initial settings for SACD playback; as well as unhooking all of the video and digital interconnects).

Please help! I did a search on SACD throughout the thread and did not find any answers to this problem. I get NO sound through multichannel or stereo analog when playing hybrid SACDs, only CD playback through R/L and digital outs. The LED reads CD at all times for the Hybrids.

Thanks!