Due to the fact that there are currently numerous different threads on the Pioneer Elite 59avi, as well as several members who have indicated that it would make much more sense to have a single, consolidated thread to discuss all aspects of the 59avi to make searching easier, I have decided to start this thread.

I hope that all questions regarding settings, setup, and various issues or problems will be discussed in this thread, instead of having a new thread pop up every other day.

I think this thread should have been started quite a while ago, but it doesn't make sense to "not" do it for that reason either!

I will be editing this post semi-regularly to add relevant information for easy reference.

******************************************************

Firmware check for 59avi:

In Initial Settings->Options, while at this menu press DISPLAY in the remote, at the bottom of the screen you can see the firmware version. There has been 306, 406 and 506.

*****************************************************

Discrete Remote Control codes in MX700 format for 59avi:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4782551#post4782551

For MX500: see http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/files/rcfiles.cgi?area=mx500&db=devices&br=pioneer&dv=dvdplayer&md=elitedv59avi&fc=&kw=59&st=&ar=&dt=&so=&pg=1&file=mx500/devices/dvd/pio-dvd-dv59avi.zip
****************************************************

When making video adjustments the 59 avi's menu takes up almost the entire screen.Is there a way to make the size of the menu display smaller so you could see more of what you're displaying and trying to adjust?

It's in the manual but easy to miss. When looking at the full page of Video Adjust settings, simply scroll to the item you want to adjust and then hit Display on the remote. That will switch you to a one line display of just that item so that you can get immediate feedback of what changing it is doing to the image.

Up and down arrow in the one line display will switch which item is in the one line display just as if you were scrolling in the big list, and hitting Display on the remote will get you back to the big list. Changing the item will result in an immediate change to the movie image you are seeing in the background. Hitting Enter will make the current setting permanent and will exit Video Adjust.

Remember to hit Enter when you want to leave the Video Adjust display so as to make the changes permanent. If you exit in other fashions, theres a chance the prior setting(s) will get restored over your temporary changes. Frankly I haven't quite figured out Pioneer's logic behind that, so after making changes and exiting, I go back into Video Adjust to double check the changes really "stuck".

The Pioneer manual, in the trouble-shooting section, says that some changes made in Video Adjust will only take effect after the next time you Stop the current disc or open the disc tray, but so far I haven't spotted any such cases. If anyone finds such a case (changing a setting doesn't seem to change anything while the movie is playing but DOES change something if you then Stop the movie and then hit Play again) I'd be interested in hearing about it.

It also says you can lose changes you make if the power fails before the change actually takes effect. Just tossing this in for completeness, as its never been an issue for me.
--Bob

****************************************************

To skip forced trailers at the start of the DVD

In order to get past forced trailers and go directly to the beginning of the movie, simply hit the "stop" button twice in a row while the trailer is playing, then hit "play". The movie will start from the beginning. From that point you can also hit the "menu" button to go to the main DVD menu if desired.

****************************************************

Setting Black levels (and contrast)

See post# 348 by Bob Pariseau: Setting Black Levels (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5132540&&#post5132540)

****************************************************

Settings to Avoid White and Black Crush

The player suffers from white crush over HDMI in the default setting. All white information over 235 gets discarded. I've been measuring the HDMI port data, and found one, and only one, setting where the player behaves like it should. That is, outputting reference HDMI-Video levels, no black crush, no white crush and no compression of the signal range.

In the Video Adjust menu:

White Level: All the way to the left (min setting)
Black Level: One notch down from center settings (towards min)
Black Setup: 7.5 IRE
HDMI Color Adjust: Enhanced

All other settings as default for the "HDMI Direct" preset.

Settings for HDMI output were tested for RGB only. Don't know how YCbCr is handled over HDMI.

Carl Sundbom

***************************************************

Additional HDMI settings:

I did some work tonight, and these are my findings.

Tools:
Firmware revision of DVD Player: 1.526
Test patterns: Avia Pro IRE window patterns (from 2.5 IRE to 108.5 IRE)
Video black defined as 7.5 IRE, nominal white as 100 IRE, peak white 108.5 IRE.
Represents DVD content luma values from 6 to 254.
Data analyzer: Lumagen VisionHDP scaler IRE readout feature

Standard vs. Enhanced "HDMI Color Adjust": The "Standard" mode prevents output of any values lower than 16 or higher than 235 over the HDMI port. Assuming we are trying to output what's on the DVD, the only way to make this happen in "Standard" mode is to compress the dynamic range from 1-254 to 16-235 by using the black/white level controls to cram the BtB and WtW content into the 16-235 range. Not recommended, since we will lose fidelity. You will be able to see BtB and WtW if you do this, but you will lose grayscale steps in the middle.

"Enhanced" mode will allow us to output any value from 1-254. Now we just need to map the video black to 16 and nominal white to 235 (still preserving the WtW content up to 254). Since my testing concluded that we need "Enhanced" HDMI Color Adjust to get us in the ballpark, let's look at the other settings.

There is an interaction between the "Black Level" control and the "IRE Set up" control. You can achieve almost the same results by leaving "IRE Set up" at 0, and compensate by raising the "Black Level" control as you can be setting "IRE Set up" to 7.5. However, it's not perfect, and black will end up being a little off from its standard value (a little higher or lower than 16, depending on "Black Level" setting). Setting "IRE Set up" to 7.5 and lowering the black level one notch gets us to perfect video black (luma 16 over HDMI). This will also preserve most of the BtB content (80-90% in my estimation).

The "White Level" control in its default setting will re-sample all content over 235 to whatever the maximum value is. For "Standard", this will be 235, so everything over 235 will be output as 235. For "Enhanced" this will be 254, so everything over 235 will be output as 254. This will also "stretch" the rest of the grayscale, so all values will be too high. Lowering the "White Level" to it's leftmost position will preserve all the steps between 235 and 254. The "stretching" of the grayscale is also avoided to a large degree.

The settings I ended up with are the same as the ones I listed earlier. They are as close as I could get, but they're not perfect. There is still a slight "stretch". A value of 6 on the DVD would be output as 5 or 4, and a value of 251 on the DVD would be output as 254. There is clearly some re-sampling going on, no matter what settings are used. I doubt this will have any real effects watching a movie. An SDI mod may be the only way to get the 59-Avi to output a pristine "DVD perfect" signal, but from what I've seen so far, this is one heck of a player

A couple of more points of clarification.

1. The 'HDMI Color Adjust' defines the output range. Standard is 16-235 and Enhanced is 1-254. I think this control is a misguided attempt at implementing Video vs PC levels. "Standard" set video black at 16, and nominal white at 235, alright, but it compresses all BtB data into 16 and all WtW data into 235. Since the whole point of running Video instead of PC levels is to pass BtB and WtW, this is clearly a design flaw.

2. The black level control defines the value of black. This should be 16 over HDMI. It doesn't operate like a normal brightness control, which would move the entire video range up and down. Moving it up only compresses values in the midrange. Nominal white doesn't move when you increase black level.

3. The white level control should be renamed to "white crush control". All it does is define what values should be output with the maximum luma value. By default, it defines everything from 235 to 254 to be 254 (in Enhanced mode). Rasing the white level control pulls even more values in to be 254. It also "pulls" the rest of the range with it, increasing the difference between between the mid grays. So how much white crush do you want? Now you have a choice!

Carl Sundbom

I received one as a Christmas present this year. I've been in Maui since 12/29 so I have not had a chance yet to set it up with my 55TXi receiver and my 730HD RPTV.

Looking forward to enjoying the upgrade in video and audio connectivity.

Good for you, Rob!

I've owned my 59avi since July and so far have very little reason to regret the purchase. I believe I can see the ICP defect in the Snell chart on DVE but it has yet to be a problem for me in the video based DVDs I own. Having to manually change Pure Cinema mode for discs exhibiting the "alternating 3:2 flags" problem has been a non-issue for me as well.

I still don't like the 59avi's remote, but since I've got it programmed into a Pronto, I hardly ever use the player's remote anyway.

My biggest puzzle with the player is that I have yet to figure out what HDMI Color Adjust = Enhanced mode is SUPPOSED to be used for.

If anyone has saved links to some of my previous posts on adjusting and enjoying the 59avi, feel free to post the links here.
--Bob

Thats a great idea regarding copying and pasting some of your prior posts here Bob!

I was wondering about the Enhanced mode for the color adjust in the HDMI menu as well. It definitely seems to make the color more saturated. All my calibration with DVE is in the standard mode.

bsprtsgrp- congrats! I think you will really enjoy this player!

Rob,
As best I can tell, setting it to Enhanced only raises color saturation until you realize you need to re-calibrate the basic levels. After you re-calibrate there's no change I can detect in color, tint, or the color decoder. Instead the Enhanced mode seems to primarily affect Black and White levels, which makes no sense. Now I'm hooked up HDMI to DVI, so I suspect this "feature" only has useful effect if you are connected HDMI to HDMI, but I can't begin to guess what it is really trying to do.
--Bob

Here is some info that was posted in another thread that is very useful:

Originally posted by Kage:

I recently got the Pioneer DV-59AVi with a build date of November 2004 and I have questions on the pure cinema modes.
1) What is the difference of each pure cinema modes?
2) Does each pure cinema mode affect picture quality?
3) Which pure cinema mode is excellent for films?

Response by Bob Pariseau:

Pure Cinema ON forces film mode processing.

Pure Cinema OFF forces video mode processing.

Pure Cinema AUTO1 and AUTO2 are two different styles of automatic processing where the player attempts to determine on the fly whether any given scene was originally film or video based and to "do the right thing".

This is important stuff because the frame rate for film and video content is different (24 frames/sec vs. 30 frames/sec) and getting it wrong will produce artifacts in the image when de-interlacing is done. For examples of what can go wrong, see the very detailed write-ups in the DVD benchmarks section of the Secrets of Home Theater web site. Or more simply, leave Pure Cinema set to OFF while watching a typical DVD movie and you will start seeing combing and such yourself.

The factory default setting is AUTO1. The Secrets tests of the early production 59avi indicated that AUTO2 did a better job handling certain problematic DVDs. You can read the writeup in the Secrets test of the 59avi from early 2004 for details.

I originally recommended sticking with the factory default setting of AUTO1 because I had had such great results with the other factory default settings for HDMI output from the 59avi and because I thought I had detected some problems when I used AUTO2 as an experiment. I've recently tried this experiment again and can find none of the defects I thought I saw before, and so based on the original Secrets testing I too now recommend using AUTO2 as your default setting just in case you happen to pop in a DVD that has one or the other of the content problems that Secrets found AUTO2 handled better.

I should point out that I haven't personally seen AUTO2 do anything BETTER than AUTO1 either, but I trust that the Secrets tests really did reveal cases where AUTO2 worked better.

That leaves two problems that Secrets found. First, some video based material will exhibit the ICP problem. There is no workaround for this in the 59avi. I don't happen to see it in video content I'm watching, but the vast vast majority of my DVDs are film based so that's probably just me.

The other problem is the "alternating 3:2 flags" problem which is most commonly reported on some older Disney DVDs. There IS a workaround for this one.

Once the movie starts playing, hit Display twice on the remote to show the second page of the on-screen display. In the lower left of that screen is a "#" symbol indicating film mode processing in effect. If that "#" symbol is flashing, then this DVD has this problem. In such case, go into the video adjust settings and change Pure Cinema to ON for this DVD. In all other cases ("#" solidly on, or "#" solidly off) you should leave Pure Cinema in your default setting -- which I now recommend to be AUTO2.

The details of what AUTO2 and AUTO1 are designed to do differently is not exactly clear to me. My original assumption was that AUTO2 was designed for working better in the presence of European, PAL-video based DVDs and was also less sensitive to the proper presence of film mode flags in the DVD content. I'm not sure if that's precisely correct. But in any event, I use AUTO2 exclusively now (except when the "#" flashes) and have found no reason to want to go back to AUTO1.
--Bob

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Rob,
As best I can tell, setting it to Enhanced only raises color saturation until you realize you need to re-calibrate the basic levels. After you re-calibrate there's no change I can detect in color, tint, or the color decoder. Instead the Enhanced mode seems to primarily affect Black and White levels, which makes no sense. Now I'm hooked up HDMI to DVI, so I suspect this "feature" only has useful effect if you are connected HDMI to HDMI, but I can't begin to guess what it is really trying to do.
--Bob

Very interesting!

We are lucky to have someone here who actually takes the time to test things like this! :)

I have my 59avi going HDMI to DVI, and the Enhanced setting still has the effect I described....but I never bothered recalibrating via DVE (although it is obvious that you would need to do so).

In what way does it seem to affect the Black and White levels?

I don't have the details at hand any more but basically the recalibration required dramatically raising blacks and lowering whites or the other way around. The apparent perceptual change in saturation was due to whites/blacks being way off until you recalibrate.
--Bob

Hey guys I hooked up my 59 AVi and I am very impressed. I am running it HDMI to DVI into my Mits 65813 and the picture is great. I calibrated it with DVE and the overall picture is very similar to my 2900 thru component. I have looked at the DVE patterns at 480p and 1080i and what I have noticed is that at 480p there is very little edge enhancement or noise almost identicle to my 2900 at 480p, but at 1080i it seems a whole other level of noise and edge enhancement is introduced into the patterns and it is enough to be noticeble. I have all the settings at the direct setting for HDMI eccept for auto 2. I know my Mits has an slight halo effect with my 2900 but with the 59 at 1080i it is much more pronounced and that is why I bought the 59. I like having no scan lines visible. I was wondering if any of the other adjustments would help this without ruining the sharpness of the image.

Thanks

Monte

dvdmann,
This is something you should be able to control via the Sharpness control on your TV. It's not surprising that the set is doing something different when fed 480p vs. 1080i via the same input. You should recheck your calibration for each resolution.

First make sure you don't have any edge enhancement "feature" turned on in your Mits. This may require you to switch to a different picture mode if there's no specific control. You want a picture mode labeled something like "movies" instead of anything labeled, "vivid", "dynamic", "sports", or the like. If in doubt, select the picture mode that appears to start off with the DARKEST and SOFTEST looking image. Select the proper picture mode BEFORE you calibrate, just in case there's stuff going on in the background when you make that selection that you can't alter via the other available user controls.

Having selected the proper picture mode on your TV, double check that there are no other edge enhancement options still turned on. If there are any turned on, turn them all off in your TV. They are in there for handling lower quality video. You want to calibrate for the high quality signal you'll be getting from the 59avi. While you are at it, turn off any other "features" that modify basic adjustments on the fly or attempt to correct for crappy input signals such as "flesh tone correction", "automatic gain control", "velocity modulation", "noise reduction", etc. etc. Turn them all off. After you've calibrated, you can play with turning them back on if you'd like, but you'll likely be happier if you LEAVE them all turned OFF.

With all that turned off, NOW re-calibrate with DVE.

As far as setting Sharpness, for the high-bandwidth signal coming in on the HDMI connection, what you want to concentrate on is precisely the halos you are seeing. Look specifically at vertical black lines in the resolution or sharpness chart. Turn the sharpness way up and you should see distinct white halos around those lines indicating that "ringing" is occurring. Now turn the Sharpness all the way off and those halos should vanish but the lines should fuzzy up a bit. What you want to do is turn Sharpness up slowly to reduce the fuzzies, but stop before the first hint of white halo returns.

The proper setting for Sharpness will likely be well below the factory default setting. It will likely be in the lower third of the available range. Some folks find they need to turn Sharpness all the way off, but that's fairly rare. If you have to choose between two settings, pick the lower one even though that might leave the lines a little fuzzier than you think is correct.

That's the proper Sharpness setting.

If you are used to having Sharpness turned higher, it will take a while to get used to the image with Sharpness set properly. Give it time. The higher Sharpness you thought you saw at the old setting was really "false detail" and "ringing" that was actually obscuring the real detail in the image. After you get used to it the advantages will be obvious. Remember that most movies are filmed to have a soft look.
--Bob

Hey Bob, I am very aware of all of the things you mention. Everything including the sharpness on the Mits is turned all the way down or off. I think the 1080i signal is doing something because the HDMI 480p signal from the 59 is great just like my 2900. But when I change resolutions to 1080i that is when the additional noise and edge enhancement is present. I think the upscaling is causing the additional noise an somehow enhancing the ringing. Should I try to adjust the HDMI settings in the 59.

Thanks,

Monte

dvdmann,
Well, I get a clean signal from my 59avi at 1080i using the default "HDMI Direct" settings, and I believe others have found their 1080i outputs clean as well. But there is an "HDMI Detail" control in those settings on the 59avi that can be turned down, as well as separate Sharpness controls for different frequency ranges. As usual, load the HDMI Direct settings into a Memory and you can fiddle with those controls from there.

It certainly would be worth a try to see if you can fix this from the 59avi side, but I suspect you may find out your Mits has ringing in its internal video signal path at 1080i. The easy experiment would be to turn all those settings all the way down on the 59avi and see if it alters the halos.

If not, then you may need to address this in the Mits' service menu (i.e., with a calibration tech).

You might also want to take your 59avi to a store or to a friend's house where you can hook it up via HDMI 1080i to another HDTV-ready TV, just to verify you don't have a problem with your 59avi.
--Bob

Be neat to get how to look up the firmware rev in here. And also I think there was a post where Bob talked about the IRE setting. How to deal with anamorphic vs non-anamorphic DVDs and aspect ratio on the display, etc. Maybe even a little of the HDMI/iScan stuff. I am also quite happy with mine. The layer change could be improved some, but for the price and what *else* you get, I'm not complaining too much. :)

Here are some of the informative posts I've been Subscribed to since getting this player for Christmas:

Cinema Mode Questions
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=493680

HDMI 16:9 Questions
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=487120
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=485769
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=469997

HDMI Upscaling
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=479776

Settings
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=476594
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=471258

HDMI Settings then DVD-R playing
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=492040

DVD-R playing
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=490709

Mainly Firmware Questions
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=482641

Y-C Delay
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=487120

Discrete IR Codes
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=474587

Many thanks to Bob, Rob and Kevin for all their input on these threads.

Rob-I'm glad you started this thread. I will use this link in other 59avi threads and ask that they post here with comments and questions.

Bob: As always, the information is appreciated. The consolidation of 59 threads to one should give you an extra hour in your day....hopefully to enjoy in your HT.

Paul: Excellent work with all thos important links....you have made every newbie's life a little easier by doing the searching for them.

Ron

Denon 3910 owner here... http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/wavey.gif

just reading and learning about the 59avi....I like to learn about the "other" winner of the Secrets DVD player(s) of the year ;)

I have been reading about the 59 avi and it's audio DAC's but was
wondering that if you use a digital connection(coax or optical)
to your pre-pro aren't these not used and essentially useless?

Originally posted by RONM
I have been reading about the 59 avi and it's audio DAC's but was
wondering that if you use a digital connection(coax or optical)
to your pre-pro aren't these not used and essentially useless?

Maybe I don't fully understand your question....but, for those of us whoe bought the player for it's dvd playback/PQ, I use the digital coax audio exclusively. I have no need for the different audio formats, but wanted the best PQ for the dollar amount. I believe that is the 59avi.

Ron

I will try to be more specific.When playing red book cd's or dvd's you
would use typical analog connections for audio or a digital connection
(audio coax or optical cable).The way I understand it is that if you are using
analog then digital to analog conversion is happening and quality DAC's
would be a good thing.However if your connection is digital for these
sources(cd's,dvd's)then there is no digital to analog conversion and
DAC's of the 59avi are not being used and your pre-pro does the work.
Given the price of this player perhaps this is something to consider if
your pre-pro can match the Pioneers quality DAC,s.

Bob. I appreciate your valuable input. I have adjusted the controls in the 59 and it did seen to help but the picture got softer as well. I have noticed something that I find unusual when going through the DVE resolution patterns title 13 chapter 3, Multiburst, Vertical. The lower left lines and the upper right lines on the screen (these seem to be the same resolutions) have a very noticeable jitter in them. All of the other lines on the screen are fairly stable but the 2 narrowest set of lines on the screen (lower left and upper right) have this really obvious shaking. When I switch to HDMI 480p from the 59 the lines are rock solid as well as when I use 480p from my 2900. Do you have any idea what this means?.

Thanks, Monte

Where do we see or get into "Pure Cinema" mode to adjust AUTO1 or AUTO2?

Home Menu
Video Adjust
Select Memory 1, 2 or 3
Detailed Settings
you will see the Pure Cinema selection
set from the Default Auto 1 to Auto 2

pages 60-61 in the Manual

dvdmann,
Are these thin, horizontal lines (I forget which way that chart is organized)? If so, you are probably seeing the effects of the interlaced signal at 1080i since the problem goes away when you switch to a progressive signal. If your display supports 720p you should try that one as well.

---------------------------------------------------------------

EDITED TO UPDATE: Dvdmann, I just checked that test chart on DVE using my 59avi sending 1080i to my Fujitsu plasma and there is no jitter. This would add evidence that what you are seeing on your display is the effects of the interlacing in a 1080i signal, since my Fujitsu de-interlaces and scales a 1080i signal to a progressive signal nearer to 720p. I.e., the 59avi is not sending bad data out at 1080i, it's just that your eye is picking up the flicker of thin horizontal lines appearing and disappearing according to which field of the interlaced frame is currently being displayed and whether or not that line happens to be in that field or the other field.

The extra spatial resolution of 1080i doesn't come without the costs of it's interlaced nature.
--Bob

Originally posted by tpaxadpom
Here is a list of movies that I found problems using Auto2 setting.
If you can get your hands on "The Bourne Identity" there is one chapter that opens up showing multiple buildings. Use it to compare Auto1 to Auto2 settings.
In the movie "The League" look at chapter 4 (14min and 53s) take a look at the bookshelves.
There is another one in Shrek 2. It's a chapter that opens up with the tree at a night time (I'll find it tomorrow if you want me to). You can see jaggies on branches with Auto 2 setting. This one if the hardest one of all to see.
Anyway these are my observations. Check and see for yourself whether they show up on your system or not. Don't take me wrong I do trust the settings recommended by Secrets (I was initially using Auto2), but once I noticed the problem and switched to Auto1 they seem to disappear.

tpaxadpom,
I only have Shrek2 out of those discs, so I went looking for the scene in question. I believe you are talking about the start of Chapter 6, where the King is going to the inn to hire Puss in Boots. The Chapter starts with an establishing shot of the branches of a dead tree highlighted in front of a full moon. The camera then starts to pan down to pick up the sign of the inn and the path to the inn.

Now if you repeatedly Chapter Back to restart that scene over and over again, and concentrate on the branches that are across the face of the moon, then as the camera starts to pan down you will see a brief period of combing in those branches. This is visible when Pure Cinema is set to AUTO2, but is not visible (the image is clean) when Pure Cinema is set to AUTO1.

If this is what you were seeing, then you have good eyes!

However, try the following experiment: Instead of using Chapter Back to restart the scene, use Reverse Scan to back up into the end of the previous Chapter. Now hit Play and let the previous Chapter end and transition into Chapter 6.

If you play past the start of Chapter 6 in that fashion, there is no combing in either AUTO2 or AUTO1 mode!

AUTO1 uses flag data on the DVD to pick up the need to do film mode processing, and thus gets it right from the first frame of the Chapter.

AUTO2, on the other hand, needs a few frames to pick up the actual frame cadence, and thus it gets this particular Chapter start wrong -- but only if you restart the Chapter as opposed to playing the movie normally (where it defaults to the film cadence it already had in place from the end of the previous chapter).

You might try this trick with your other two discs and see if the problems you are seeing with AUTO2 in those cases can also be ascribed to AUTO2 needing to get re-started properly because of how you are viewing and reviewing that scene. I.e., that there's no problem with AUTO2 if you let the movie play through normally.

If I've scoped this out correctly, I would still continue to recommend that people use AUTO2 as their default Pure Cinema mode.
--Bob

Bob thanks for checking this out. So it is safe to assume that this perception of jitter is normal for a 1080i signal on any display that displays 1080i at 1080i. I just wanted to be sure that it is not a defect in the 59 or my 65813. Your explanation makes good sense and it would be nice if another 59 avi owner could verify this same jitter on their display viewing a 1080 HDMI signal from the 59avi into their display viewing it at a 1080i display rate. Maybe someone else will chime in.

Thanks again Bob.

Monte

I have noticed the same problem with jitter feeding 1080i when I was calibrating my friends TV (Pioneer Pro-530HDi) using VE(I don't have DVE calibration disc). It was 6.75 MHz circle with horizontal lines that was expiriencing this problem. I was going back and forth between 480p component video, 480p HDMI and 1080i. The problem only appeared in 1080i mode. Then after I've changed some settings on the player (or possibly turn the unit off and back on) this problem dissapeared. I own Pioneer Elite Pro-730HDi and have never noticed the same problem again (I run 1080i all the time with all settings at default except Pure Cinema - Auto2).
Bob, I will look further into this. Perfect observation, all of the problems I've mentioned show up in the beginning of the chapter. Thanks for your time.

You know, I am really impressed with this players PQ! Watched another movie last night, and I am just continually impressed.

This got me thinking, despite all the great comments and reviews you hear about using an external scaler such as the DVDO iScan HD+, I can't help but wonder how much improvement, if any, there actually would be? I mean, if I am not seeing any artifacts (at least none that I would think are caused by de-interlacing or scaling) how is an external scaler going to help?

The iScan HD+ will supposedly support HDMI 480i eventually, which is a big advantage to us 59avi owners since we wouldn't need to do an SDI mod or purchase the iScan with that option, saving hundreds of dollars. But even then, the iScan HD+ isn't exactly cheap, and would still cost more than what we probably paid for the 59avi itself.

Looking for comments here! :)

Rob, you're gonna end up hijacking your own 59avi thread! (grin!)

In addition to error free de-interlacing and scaling, the Iscan units offer the ability to get a precise pixel match to your display -- both in terms of no pixel cropping and in terms of generating the native resolution of the display. Now of course that's not going to do you much good unless you have a display that can accept its true, native resolution instead of one of the standard resolutions. Typically this means you are in the realm of the heavily tweakable, high end front projection systems.

In addition the Iscans will help solve a variety of mismatch problems between player and display.

Bytehoven has a recent thread where he did some detailed comparisons -- not against a 59avi as I recall, but no matter -- and you can search for that one to see the sorts of precision improvements he found.

The bottom line is that you are pushing the limits of what can possibly be done with a 480i signal off a DVD, so some of the improvements, albeit real and measureable, may not be visible unless you have (1) a trained eye, and (2) a big display.

------------------------------------------------

That said, the 59avi does produce a sweet image.

I suspect when all is said and done we are at the stage when we are seeing subtle defects of one player against another, as is often the case for example when comparing high end speakers. Any one of these top notch players should make any owner happy, but you may prefer the design choices made by one set of engineers over another. Iscan is just such another approach.
--Bob

Rob: I've struggle with the same issues that you layed out so well in your thread. What it comes down to for me is the percentage improvement that I would see for the money wouldn't be a good investment. Then you add into the equation that hd resolution players are right around the corner, it's hard to make that additional $1,300 investment ($400 for SDI mod and $900 for HD Iscan). I really think the only reason I even consider it is the pending hardware war between HD-DVD and Blu Ray players.

Another point I agree with is my on-going appreciation for the 59avi's PQ. One area that love is the lack of video noise...this drives me nuts and this player is one of the best I've ever seen in handling it.

Ron

I have a two questions about this player. This player is connected with component cables in 480p mode on a Sony 36 inch HDTV that does not have HDMI or DVI inputs. I'm going to get a new Sony LCD rear projection HDTV or a JVC DILA TV in early February.

1. I have a November 2004 build 59avi, and how to I read the Y/C delay chart in AVIA to know if my 59avi has Y/C delay?
2. When I calibrated the 59avi with DVE in movie mode on my Sony 36 inch HDTV, for some reason the pq is soft, not bright enough, and contrast seems a bit off, and colors seem muted, how to I fix this for the best possible picture? When I compared this dvd player in vivid mode in my tv that has been calibrated, vivid mode seems more punchy, but I see more artifacts with this mode.

Kage,
To read the Avia Y/C delay chart, look at each of the columns on the left hand side separately. You'll see a set of patterns in each column that shows whether that particular signal is early or late with "just right" being the 0 pattern in the middle of the column. What you want to do is find the pattern in each column where the LEFT edge of each of the two strips lines up most closely with each other. Ideally that should be the 0 pattern for each column. You may find the actual reading is in between two patterns, in which case you just use an in between number.

Meanwhile the vertical color bars on the right side will show you the effect of any Y/C delay error. The error shows up as an imprecise transition at the vertical edges where the background color changes over to the color bar on each side of the bar.

Now keep in mind that Y/C signal timing mismatches can be due to either the player OR the display or a combination of the two. In terms of using the player's controls (or any controls that might be available on your display) to fix it, that is not really important. You simply make the best adjustment you can to get the Y/C measurements as close to zero as possible and to get the color bars on the right looking as clean as possible on the edges. However if your display is generating the problem, and you fix it by adjusting the player's controls, you'll still have the problem as regards other source devices.

Once again, if you DO find a Y/C delay problem, keep in mind that unless you know the characteristics of your display, you can't jump to any conclusion as to whether the problem is coming from the player or is inside the display itself. Changing the signal path in the player or the display, as for example by hooking up to a different input, may reveal a problem that wasn't there on some other signal path.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you like the "Vivid" mode on your TV, the odds are you simply don't have experience with what a calibrated image looks like yet. TV manufacturers invariably ship their sets with default settings like "Vivid" that are disparagingly called the "torch" modes -- overly bright/contrasty, overly red, and overly sharpness enhanced. They do this because the torch modes make their TVs stand out in stores, particularly in the garish lighting found in stores. As you've found out, such settings are inconsistent with critical viewing. You will see artifacts and the true details of the film will be obscured by "false sharpness" and noise. In addition, colors will be flat out wrong.

Trust your calibration DVD! You did the right thing to calibrate in "movie" mode. Be sure you are calibrating with the room lighting set to your normal viewing conditions (which should be dim lighting but not totally blacked out).

Take some time to get used to the image you get with your set calibrated in that fashion. Keep in mind that most movies are intentionally filmed to have a soft look.

If this is your first time using a calibration DVD, you may very well find that it pays to go back in and try it again a few more times as you gain experience watching different films. Keep in mind that settings like Brightness and Contrast interact, so you need to iterate a few times to find the sweet spot setting that's right for both of them. Have patience, experiment with SMALL changes, and start to develop a feel for how tweaking one or another control actually alters the image you get.

If your TV has setting "memories", reserve one for your very best effort at doing the calibration "just right" as per the DVD. Then use any other memories for experiments where you deviate from those settings JUST A LITTLE BIT.

But for heaven's sake don't use "vivid" mode.
--bob

Bob,
Is it ok that I use standard mode on my tv to calibrate the DV-59AVi or do I have to use movie mode?

Is it possible to do the following?

Pio HDMI 480i, HDMI to DVI, then iScan, then back to HDMI to the display?

I know Levesque does it this way, but leaves it as DVI to his display.

I did ping DVDO, and they said an HDMI iScan is coming later this year. (I remember him saying Aug.)

Also, you *can* find those iScan boxes fairly discounted. ;)

tpaxadpom,

I sent you a private message concerning that great price you got your 59 for. If anyone else has a killer price on a 59 please private message me.

Thanks,

Monte

Kage,
Some TVs use the picture modes as just a shorthand for preset values of the user controls. In such cases, you COULD start with any mode and just make all the necessary calibrations from there. Starting from a mode closer to where you want to end up just makes it easier.

But other TVs do things in the background when you select certain picture modes, and you can't undo those from the available user controls. On such TVs it is imperative that you pick a picture mode which doesn't force unwanted, secret "features" on you before you begin to calibrate. The typical culprits here are extra edge enhancements, flesh tone adjusters, and signal filtering such as "digital noise reduction".

It's possible you can find out -- say by asking on the right TV forum here -- whether your TV does any such stuff. But it is almost always safest to start from the mode that begins with the darkest and softest picture.

If your normal viewing lighting is fairly bright, or if the TV designers went too far in darkening the picture for "movie" mode, then you may indeed need to start from a brighter mode. "Standard" is a name often used for the second best choice. Alternatively, you can lighten up your calibration for "movie" mode yourself. Typically you would do this by raising Contrast a few steps to add brighter whites, and then lowering Brightness a step or two to compensate by re-adjusting the black levels. Essentially you will be aiming towards a compromise between "movie" and "standard" choices.

It's OK to trust your eye on this, as long as you give the proper calibration levels a fair chance to sink in and show what they can do.

But the types of settings you'll get with Vivid mode are just wrong. The TV makers push whites towards blues to give the set a false brightness and then have to overly emphasize reds to keep flesh tones from looking awful. The result will catch your eyes in stores but for critical viewing it is just a mess. "Sports" mode is equally offensive. There they push greens to try to make grass on the playing field stand out. And both modes crank up the Sharpness processing ridiculously high.
--Bob

Well Bob, I spent the whole day yesterday working on my display to give the 59 the best possible chance and I am glad that I put in the effort. I fixed the geometry, over-scan, and did a complete convergence on all 3 colors for my 1080i scan rate and I must say it made a big difference. I still have a little more edge enhancement at 1080i than I do at 480p but except for that the picture coming from the 59 at 1080i is excellent. The jitter I was talking about in the highest frequency test patterns has also been reduce greatly (I think the convergence helped this) and I must say this is the best picture I have seen on my monitor ever from a DVD player. The 2900 rivals it in color, contrast, and deinterlacing, and overall picture quality but the added level of detail and the lack of any visible scan lines makes a huge difference it the distraction level that your eyes have to deal with. I have had the 3910 and I truly believe that it had a color space problem even using DVI to DVI at least on my monitor, where as the 59 does its HDMI to DVI correctly. I have a funny feeling that pioneer spent much more time making sure this would work considering that when it was released HDMI displays were not as common and DVI was the previous default connection. However they did it I am very happy that they did it correctly. I truly believe that for a display with a DVI input that this is one of a select group of DVD players that can upscale at 1080i really well without real noticeable artifacts like macro-blocking or increased noise or some other problem like audio sync. Now I need to find a great price on one. If anybody has a dealer that is selling the 59 for a killer price please private message me.

Thanks

dvdmann

Kevin,
The DVI standard doesn't support 480i. Now DVDO has stated that they have a trick in the works for their Iscan products to enable HDMI to DVI into the Iscan at 480i for those players that enable 480i output on HDMI (such as the 59avi), but I don't think it is available yet and I'm not clear on how they are going to make it work, and whether there might be a gotcha or two in there.

If they CAN make it work for input into the Iscan, then sending the de-interlaced and upscaled signal by HDMI from the Iscan to your TV is certainly doable if you have an Iscan with HDMI output or via DVI output cabled to HDMI input on your TV.
--Bob

dvdmann,
Good for you!

I'd suggest you enjoy it for a while and then take another calibration pass to double check all your settings, with particular emphasis on any settings that might deal with problems you see in the movies you watch. The closer you get to "proper" calibration, the more you will become sensitive to errors -- some of which will be in the content itself of course, but some of which will point to additional refinement you need to make in your settings. It really is worth the time to experiment here. Save your current "best" settings in a memory, make a small change, and see if that gets you closer to perfection. And just keep going.

I hope you find the geometry and convergence settings on your CRT less annoying than what i dealt with on an older CRT. I finally got fed up with the constant struggle to keep geometry and convergence adjusted properly on the CRT and switched to a plasma.
--Bob

Good string guys. I'll be happy to share any tips I get from my ISF after dialing in my 59.
I believe he's very experienced with the player. I use a Pio CRT & component.

E

Originally posted by dvdmann
Well Bob, I spent the whole day yesterday working on my display to give the 59 the best possible chance and I am glad that I put in the effort. I fixed the geometry, over-scan, and did a complete convergence on all 3 colors for my 1080i scan rate and I must say it made a big difference. I still have a little more edge enhancement at 1080i than I do at 480p but except for that the picture coming from the 59 at 1080i is excellent. The jitter I was talking about in the highest frequency test patterns has also been reduce greatly (I think the convergence helped this) and I must say this is the best picture I have seen on my monitor ever from a DVD player. The 2900 rivals it in color, contrast, and deinterlacing, and overall picture quality but the added level of detail and the lack of any visible scan lines makes a huge difference it the distraction level that your eyes have to deal with. I have had the 3910 and I truly believe that it had a color space problem even using DVI to DVI at least on my monitor, where as the 59 does its HDMI to DVI correctly. I have a funny feeling that pioneer spent much more time making sure this would work considering that when it was released HDMI displays were not as common and DVI was the previous default connection. However they did it I am very happy that they did it correctly. I truly believe that for a display with a DVI input that this is one of a select group of DVD players that can upscale at 1080i really well without real noticeable artifacts like macro-blocking or increased noise or some other problem like audio sync. Now I need to find a great price on one. If anybody has a dealer that is selling the 59 for a killer price please private message me.

Thanks

dvdmann


Does an ISF calibration do this or is it an extra item? Seems like a lot of work for a calibration. If it's included, they definately deserve what they get paid. lol fyi, my ISF guy comes highly regarded, so if it's included, I'm sure he'll do it.

Rob, Please place the firmware check instructions as well as the other links posted in this thread in your first post for easy reference.

Firmware check for 59avi:
In Initial Settings->Options, while at this menu press DISPLAY in the remote, at the bottom of the screen you can see the firmware version. There has been 306, 406 and 506.

Thanks

Finally got my two hdmi boards today for my panny Th50PHD7UY and it is SWEET :) This player and tv combo really are first rate. Thanks for starting this master thread Rob. I was just about to start it myself the other day when I saw your thread as the 59avi info and threads were spread out all over the place. I gave up on watching non anamorphic widescreen dvds with it.

My solution was to hook up my older toshiba dvd player thru component. This dvd player scales non anamorphic and 4:3 content so it's perfect and I only own a few titles in non anamorphic widescreen like The Abyss, 2010 and From Dusk Til Dawn.

Anyone who can scrounge up the dough for this player should really grab it. It produces a phenomenal picture upconverting thru HDMI :)

I have mine set to 'direct' on the 59 AVi - using HDMI output. IN that mode, there are few user adjustments (no auto 1, 2, etc.). Since the signal is sent 'unmodified' to the projector's HDMI input, all of the picture adjustments are made via the projector only.

Is there a reason, you guys prefer to tweak the DVD player AND projector?

Actually, thebland, I believe you'll find that "HDMI Direct" mode on the 59avi is just a collection of preset values of the user settable picture adjustment controls. It's not some sort of bypass of the video signal processing in the player. It's just the set of settings that happens to do the least to the image.

In particular, if you select, say, Memory 1, you can use the top item in the list of adjustments for Memory 1 to load a whole set of settings into Memory 1 from some other location. If you select "Direct" as the source of that load, the settings you'll get are the factory presets for "HDMI Direct" mode.

Now if you select HDMI Direct as your video option then you can't change anything, or even see what the settings are. But if you load the HDMI Direct settings into a Memory and select that Memory you can see what the actual settings are and change any that you need to change -- which SHOULD only include the Pure Cinema mode setting which defaults to "AUTO1" in the HDMI Direct presets.

So far the ONLY change I've found useful to make to the HDMI Direct presets is to Pure Cinema mode. I now use "AUTO2" as my default setting, with the only change from there being to "ON" in the face of a DVD disc that exhibits the "alternating 3:2 flags" problem.

Of course since the player is doing the de-interlacing, any change (Pure Cinema mode) needed to fix de-interlacing problems HAS to be done on the player side.

But Pure Cinema aside, all normal calibration adjustments SHOULD be made exclusively on the display side.
--Bob

Originally posted by mimason
Rob, Please place the firmware check instructions as well as the other links posted in this thread in your first post for easy reference.

Firmware check for 59avi:
In Initial Settings->Options, while at this menu press DISPLAY in the remote, at the bottom of the screen you can see the firmware version. There has been 306, 406 and 506.

Thanks

This is an excellent idea.

If anyone else has good "tidbits" like this that you think should be posted in the first post for easy reference, let me know and I will be happy to do so!

Bob,
I have been following this thread closely and I have a few questions and comments.

First of all, I am running the 59Avi into the Sony HS51 PJ through HDMI. I noticed a great thing tonight. The Sony allows you to select the color space. You can choose Auto, NTSC 3.58, NTSC 4.43, PAL, SECAM, etc. I initially was under the impression this player had the colorspace problems. Well tonight I verified that it does not have the colorspace problems. Using the player in 1080i mode and Avia, I notice no green depression on the color decoder. I switched the Sony through each of its settings and noticed no difference. So either the Sony is always decoding the proper signal or the Pioneer does not have this problem. Anyone else looked at this or done any other research on this problem for this player. I may have missed it in other threads.

Also, I used DVE and checked a few things as well. The Enhanced setting under HDMI crushes whites when used in an upconverted mode and I recommend against using it except for one situation. When I run the player in 480i this does not happen. Here is the trick, when running the player in 480i thru HDMI to the Sony, it will not pass below black unless it is set to 7.5 IRE and Enhanced. Using this mode does not crush white either. As a matter of fact, it is the only way to allow the player to produce a proper image in 480i. When moving back to an upconverted mode or 480p, the player will pass below black in either one of these combinations: 7.5 IRE and Enhanced or 0 IRE and Standard. From this I thought either one would work but after veiwing the DVE grayscale ramps you see that using the 7.5 IRE/Enhanced combo in 480p, 720p or 1080i the whites are crushed. On my display, this cannot be fixed with any amount of adjustment. I do not know what this tells us about the Enhanced mode but I would not use it for my display unless I was using the 480i HDMI.

I will also report, I have the 406 firmware and perfect Y/C delay according to Avia. So if people are wondering if 506 was the only firmware to have this fix, I can report it is not.

I hope this adds a bit to the thread. I will post any other findings and if there are any discrepancies in my findings, please let me know. Thanks.

awtryau89,
Your findings re HDMI at 480i are fascinating, and will be particularly important to anyone out there who was thinking of using HDMI 480i output to drive an external scaler.

It's not at all clear to me why you would have to make such an adjustment to get Blacker than Black and Peak White data to pass properly at HDMI 480i.

There's really no good reason why the player should treat HDMI 480i any differently than the other HDMI resolutions, except possibly that the designers thought folks would be using 7.5 IRE and Enhanced blacks settings for Component output at 480i and wanted to match that for HDMI.

In particular, the 0 vs. 7.5 IRE setting has no defined meaning with a digital video output signal, so whatever they player is doing to the HDMI signal when you change that from the HDMI Direct mode's default of 0 to 7.5 is anybody's guess.

Just to be clear here, all of your reported results are with HDMI output connected to the projector's HDMI input right? Not to a DVI input?
--Bob

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
awtryau89,
Just to be clear here, all of your reported results are with HDMI output connected to the projector's HDMI input right? Not to a DVI input?
--Bob

Bob,
Yes you are correct. I am using HDMI>HDMI. I have used this player HDMI>DVI but I never could try this because DVI will not support 480i. Any other theories to why it works this way would be great. Also if anyone else can double check me on this I would appreciate it.

Good report. My display is DVI only, so I can't double check this for you but I'm sure others here can.

As for the color space issue. While DVI (or HDMI to DVI) requires an RGB signal, HDMI to HDMI can be either an RGB signal or a YPbPr signal.

It's quite possible that what you've found is that in your HDMI to HDMI hookup, what's being sent is an HDMI(RGB) signal. In that case the player will necessarily convert the YPbPr data off the DVD to RGB and send that to your projector. Since your projector now sees an RGB signal it has no color conversion to do and it just uses the RGB data as sent from the player. If this is what is going on then you have verified that the 59avi is correctly using the 601 color matrix to convert YPbPr to RGB when sending out HDMI(RGB) at any resolution.

The fact that the settings on your projector made no difference would match this assumption, since they would only come into play if the projector needed to convert from YPbPr to RGB itself -- which it doesn't have to do if fed an RGB signal.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the Blacks/Whites issue: I just want to be clear again here that you are adjusting between 0 and 7.5 IRE in the "Black Setup" option and between Standard and Enhanced in the "HDMI Color Adjust" option, correct?

If so, it would appear that "HDMI Color Adjust" despite it's name and the very confusing description in the manual, is actually a toggle between video-style (Standard--the default) and PC-style (Enhanced) digital video encoding. Video-style encoding would send Black as 16, and would pass Blacker than Black and Peak White normally. PC-style encoding would send Black as 0, thus clipping any Blacker than Black data. But despite that, the specific combination of 7.5/Enhanced/480i HDMI output does "the right thing" anyway.
--Bob

I just returned my 2910 and ordered a 59avi. I can't wait. :)

Bob - what plasma are you hooked up to? I have a Fujitsu P50 and will be getting an HDMI->DVI adapter since I have a very good DVI cable already.

One thing I don't quite get about HDMI output...shouldn't it be "pure"/un-modified since the signal is digital on the DVD? Why is there any need for tweaking on the player side (aside from resolution output)? I'm thinking I'll likely stick with 480p since the scalar in my P50 is very good.

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Good report. My display is DVI only, so I can't double check this for you but I'm sure others here can.

As for the color space issue. While DVI (or HDMI to DVI) requires an RGB signal, HDMI to HDMI can be either an RGB signal or a YPbPr signal.

It's quite possible that what you've found is that in your HDMI to HDMI hookup, what's being sent is an HDMI(RGB) signal. In that case the player will necessarily convert the YPbPr data off the DVD to RGB and send that to your projector. Since your projector now sees an RGB signal it has no color conversion to do and it just uses the RGB data as sent from the player. If this is what is going on then you have verified that the 59avi is correctly using the 601 color matrix to convert YPbPr to RGB when sending out HDMI(RGB) at any resolution.

The fact that the settings on your projector made no difference would match this assumption, since they would only come into play if the projector needed to convert from YPbPr to RGB itself -- which it doesn't have to do if fed an RGB signal.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the Blacks/Whites issue: I just want to be clear again here that you are adjusting between 0 and 7.5 IRE in the "Black Setup" option and between Standard and Enhanced in the "HDMI Color Adjust" option, correct?

If so, it would appear that "HDMI Color Adjust" despite it's name and the very confusing description in the manual, is actually a toggle between video-style (Standard--the default) and PC-style (Enhanced) digital video encoding. Video-style encoding would send Black as 16, and would pass Blacker than Black and Peak White normally. PC-style encoding would send Black as 0, thus clipping any Blacker than Black data. But despite that, the specific combination of 7.5/Enhanced/480i HDMI output does "the right thing" anyway.
--Bob

Bob,
I really like your logic and even though I am trying these things you can somehow explain it better than I can.

As far as the Blacks/Whites issue, the settings I am trying are achieved as follows:

I go into the video adjust menu, I got to Memory 1 and Detailed Settings. Once in Detailed Settings, I switch the user mode to Direct then enter. This takes you out of Video Settings. I then go back in and back to Memory 1 and Detailed Settings and all the Direct functions are saved for me. On the first screen I change the deinterlacer from Auto 1 to Auto 2 as perscribed by Secrets. I then change Black Level to 0 from 7.5 or vice versa depending on which mode I am sending the Sony. On the last screen which is the third screen, I change the HDMI Color Adjust to Enhanced or Normal depending on which mode I am sending the PJ. I am pretty sure this is what you are talking about here. If it is not please let me now but this is how I am arriving at my conclusions.

As far as the colorspace issue, I think you have just explained that to me as well. Even though the Sony has an HDMI input and accepts a 480i signal, the display on the 59AVi always shows DVI 480i, 720p or 1080i depending on what I am sending. The Pioneer is obviously seeing a DVI connection on the other end during the handshake. In the manual, it tells you the display will show HDMI or DVI depending on what it senses. Well it makes sense that the Sony would be a DVI type connection because HDMI also carries audio and the Sony is a PJ and cannot do the audio. If this is the case, the Sony's HDMI is a DVI connection, then what you stated about the conversion to RGB and colorspace is correct.

One more thing which has nothing to do with the Pioneer. I also have a Hughes HTL-HD sattelite box. It has a DVI output and I use DVI to HDMI through a Gefen HDMI switcher. It also has a Standard/Enhanced function. When using this, I find that the picture severly crushes Blacks in Enhanced mode. I really cannot tell what it does to whites. So I am against using Enhanced for any display unless you can tell it to decode as a PC type signal. I did have this option on an Epson PJ I had and it would make things work with Enhanced modes.

I did go back and check my build date because of the Y/C delay issues and it is Feb 2004. The unit was purchased in April of 2004 and it does have 406 Firmware. It has no delay at all that I can see. Everything lines up perfect at 0. I wonder what the differences in 406 and 506 are but the fix obviously occurred in the 406 firmware. Someone has to be able to get to a Pioneer engineer and find this out for us.

Eric,
That's just what I was looking for. Neat!

So the mystery of the "HDMI Color Adjust" menu item appears to be solved! Just ignore what it says in the manual and think of it as PC vs video style digital encoding, with the Standard (default) setting giving the preferred video-style result.

The item you report about the front panel display showing DVI instead of HDMI may just be a displayed text bug. I.e., they forgot to use "HDMI" instead of "DVI" in that text. Or possibly they use "DVI" by mistake because the player decided to send out HDMI(RGB) instead of HDMI(YPbPr).

===>> Has anyone else using the 59avi connected HDMI to HDMI seen the front panel display "HDMI" text when it shows the connection resolution, or are all of you seeing "DVI" as well?<<====

In any event, the RGB output option from HDMI, if that's what's going on, is a perfectly acceptable choice for the designers to make. Since you can get a 480i signal that way, you know the player really has recognized your projector as an HDMI device, so it's not that confused.

I'm not familiar enough with the HDMI standard to know whether or not an RGB vs. YPbPr preference on the display's end is something that gets negotiated during the initial connection handshake. It could be the 59avi *ONLY* sends RGB out via HDMI -- which might be important to folks thinking of using an external scaler. Or it could be that your projector indicated a preference for RGB input, and thus that's what the 59avi sent out. Of course we're still just guessing that the color adjustment findings you achieved are really due to the 59avi sending out HDMI(RGB), but it certainly seems to fit the results!

As for the firmware; yes it would be useful if someone could develop a source at Pioneer who could explain what changed in each firmware level. But keep in mind that this player design also exists in a European version, so it's possible the change from 406 to 506 doesn't even affect the US version.
--Bob

goombawa,
My display is a Fujitsu P50 (30 series) plasma. I have it connected HDMI to DVI from the 59avi, and currently I'm under the impression that I like the image I get using 1080i best. I'm still a bit puzzled why that should be so. It would seem that 480p or 720p SHOULD work better, but 1080i is what I've latched onto.

Over the next month or so I plan to do a re-calibration pass and I'll try this experiment again.

As for tweaking things in the player; except for resolution, aspect ratio control, and the de-interlacing mode there's really nothing you should have to touch once you set the 59avi to the default settings found in "HDMI Direct" mode.

Obviously you need to pick the resolution you want to use. You also have to decide how you want the 59avi to handle any DVDs with 4:3 content. But you also have to keep an eye on the de-interlacing mode -- i.e., "Pure Cinema", the setting that determines how the player handles de-interlacing problems in the face of possible film or video frame rate content coming off the DVD.

Resolution is an experiment you'll need to do for yourself.

If your plasma is brand new, you should limit the amount of time you watch any content with letterbox or pillarbox black bars for the first couple hundred hours to give the phosphors all over the screen an equal chance to get their initial burn-in done. On the 59avi, that means selecting "HDMI 16:9 Wide" mode -- which is the default -- so that 4:3 content DVDs are stretched left and right to fill the 16:9 frame of your display.

Once the plasma's phosphors have had a chance to settle down, you may very well want to switch that to "HDMI 16:9 Compressed" mode which will cause the 59avi to automatically detect 4:3 content, even scene by scene if you have such a DVD, and to generate black pillar box bars on either side of it so as to preserve the original aspect ratio. My recommendation is that "Compressed" mode be used in combination with a high res output setting -- 720p or 1080i -- since that gives the 59avi plenty of extra resolution to generate those pillarbox bars without damaging the resolution of the 4:3 content (particularly it's color resolution) nestled in between them.

The default for Pure Cinema is "AUTO1". Based on the Secrets testing, and some trials I've made that satisfy me it doesn't cause any significant problems, I now agree with Secrets that you should Switch this and use "AUTO2" as your default setting for film vs. video detection and proper de-interlacing.

However there is one exception to this. Once the movie starts playing, hit Display twice to bring up the second page of on-screen display info and look for the "#" symbol in the lower left corner of that second page. If the"#" is flashing then the DVD you are playing likely has the "alternating 3:2 flags" problem -- most commonly reported on older Disney DVDs. In that case, it is best to change Pure Cinema to "ON" to force film mode processing -- but only for the duration of that DVD. Change it back to "AUTO2" when you are done. For other cases -- "#" solidly on or "#" solidly off -- "AUTO2" should work just fine for you.
--Bob

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
goombawa,
My display is a Fujitsu P50 (30 series) plasma. I have it connected HDMI to DVI from the 59avi, and currently I'm under the impression that I like the image I get using 1080i best. I'm still a bit puzzled why that should be so. It would seem that 480p or 720p SHOULD work better, but 1080i is what I've latched onto.

Over the next month or so I plan to do a re-calibration pass and I'll try this experiment again.

As for tweaking things in the player; except for resolution, aspect ratio control, and the de-interlacing mode there's really nothing you should have to touch once you set the 59avi to the default settings found in "HDMI Direct" mode.

Obviously you need to pick the resolution you want to use. You also have to decide how you want the 59avi to handle any DVDs with 4:3 content. But you also have to keep an eye on the de-interlacing mode -- i.e., "Pure Cinema", the setting that determines how the player handles de-interlacing problems in the face of possible film or video frame rate content coming off the DVD.

Resolution is an experiment you'll need to do for yourself.

If your plasma is brand new, you should limit the amount of time you watch any content with letterbox or pillarbox black bars for the first couple hundred hours to give the phosphors all over the screen an equal chance to get their initial burn-in done. On the 59avi, that means selecting "HDMI 16:9 Wide" mode -- which is the default -- so that 4:3 content DVDs are stretched left and right to fill the 16:9 frame of your display.

Once the plasma's phosphors have had a chance to settle down, you may very well want to switch that to "HDMI 16:9 Compressed" mode which will cause the 59avi to automatically detect 4:3 content, even scene by scene if you have such a DVD, and to generate black pillar box bars on either side of it so as to preserve the original aspect ratio. My recommendation is that "Compressed" mode be used in combination with a high res output setting -- 720p or 1080i -- since that gives the 59avi plenty of extra resolution to generate those pillarbox bars without damaging the resolution of the 4:3 content (particularly it's color resolution) nestled in between them.

The default for Pure Cinema is "AUTO1". Based on the Secrets testing, and some trials I've made that satisfy me it doesn't cause any significant problems, I now agree with Secrets that you should Switch this and use "AUTO2" as your default setting for film vs. video detection and proper de-interlacing.

However there is one exception to this. Once the movie starts playing, hit Display twice to bring up the second page of on-screen display info and look for the "#" symbol in the lower left corner of that second page. If the"#" is flashing then the DVD you are playing likely has the "alternating 3:2 flags" problem -- most commonly reported on older Disney DVDs. In that case, it is best to change Pure Cinema to "ON" to force film mode processing -- but only for the duration of that DVD. Change it back to "AUTO2" when you are done. For other cases -- "#" solidly on or "#" solidly off -- "AUTO2" should work just fine for you.
--Bob

Since you have the exact same plasma as I do, you are now my new best friend. ;) Once I get my 59avi I'll post here with my impressions and compare notes with you on your 59/P50 combo, e.g., Fine mode, 480p v. 1080i, etc.

One note about viewing 4:3 material and the initial "break in" period. I didn't watch any 4:3 for 100 hours but after that period about 30% of my viewing was in 4:3 for the next few months. The result - I have 4:3 burn in, i.e., the sides are slightly brighter than the center. Since I had just bought this panel in 1/04 and the problem showed up 6 months later, you can imagine how immensely upset I was (and still am). It is not that noticeable unless you look for it, but when you do it is clearly there. Any sky scenes or snow scenes and it is more than a little noticeable. I want to try using my PC to do a "reverse burn in" with white bars/black center but don't know where to find the right image.

So for those people who just bought a plasma, it is my recommendation to watch less than 20% 4:3 and/or use the white screen for 15 min before turning off the panel even after the break in period. JMO, your mileage may vary.

Yes, I watch all SDTV in stretched mode (which I'm used to so it's no biggie for me), and so I'm only pillarboxing 4:3 DVDs, which are a small portion of my watching.

That just leaves letterboxed movies to watch out for. So far no problems.
--Bob

I use my Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi with my Pioneer Elite PRO-730HDi TV set in 1080i. The 59AVi front panel shows "HDMI 1080i". So it does recognize HDMI input on TV side during the handshaking.

Originally posted by tpaxadpom
I use my Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi with my Pioneer Elite PRO-730HDi TV set in 1080i. The 59AVi front panel shows "HDMI 1080i". So it does recognize HDMI input on TV side during the handshaking.

Very interesting!

My projector only has a DVI input, and the Elite shows "DVI" on the front panel. Does this mean that the Elite is able to recognize what type of input the display is using (DVI vs HDMI) based on the "handshake"?

Rob,
Yes, the HDMI output is REQUIRED to recognize whether it is talking to a DVI or HDMI device to make sure it does things "the DVI way" when connected to a DVI device. For example, no 480i output and always sending an RGB formated signal.

--------------------------------------------

tpaxadpom,
What's the firmware level on your 59avi that properly displays "HDMI" when it shows the resolution in the front panel? Perhaps this was something fixed in the transition from the 406 to the 506 firmware.
--Bob

My two cents.

I have the firmware 506 59 feeding a Phelps calibrated JVC HX1 via HDMI out, DVI in.

Y/C spot on, according to Avia.

I keep trying to convince myself otherwise, but 1080i looks better.

I use Direct Mode, but changed to Auto 2.

Great thread. I'll be here often. Super resource.

James

I'll put this here, since probably most 59AVi owners are here...

In another thread, has been some discussion about the player's ability to play DVD-R's. I have exactly one disc a friend's friend made on a DVR/DVD burner box. Anyway, wouldn't play on my player, or my wife's Pio DV-333, or my PC DVD drive. Other's have mentioned *some* problems playing DVD-R's.

Finally made it to Frys today, and the disc wouldn't play on a Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Philips, or Onkyo players. So at least in this case, it isn't the 59AVi. My friend says his friend can play it on the unit that made it. But now I'm wondering if he "finalized" the disc or not (or something else). fyi.

There's another thread here where people have reported problems replaying these user created DVDs that are caused by simply putting a label on the backside of the DVD. I suppose the disc isn't spinning uniformly or some such.

When you think about the mechanical tolerances involved, it's amazing this stuff works at all -- much less working reliably.
--Bob

Originally posted by dvdmann
Bob thanks for checking this out. So it is safe to assume that this perception of jitter is normal for a 1080i signal on any display that displays 1080i at 1080i. I just wanted to be sure that it is not a defect in the 59 or my 65813. Your explanation makes good sense and it would be nice if another 59 avi owner could verify this same jitter on their display viewing a 1080 HDMI signal from the 59avi into their display viewing it at a 1080i display rate. Maybe someone else will chime in.


I'm using HDMI to connect my 59Avi to a Pio Elite 1110HD plasma. Pio engineered both HDMI systems, so this *should* be as good-as-it-gets in terms of compatibility...

With 3:2 pulldown, a wee bit of judder (I think jitter is an audio thing) will still be present because 24 frames per second of film doesn't *quite* match up with 60Hz.

Just to make it even more confusing, several of the recent Pio plasmas (4340 / 4345 / 910 / 920 / 5040 / 5045 / 1110 / 1120) can do a 3:3 pulldown (called by their marketing folks "advanced pureCinema") which ups the display's refresh rate to 72 Hz, which is an even multiple of 24 (i.e., 24 x 3 = 72). Hence the 24 film frames can be triplicated and lined up with the 72 video frames.

I have gone absolutely nuts trying different combos of ON / OFF / AUTO1 / AUTO2 on the 59Avi with ON / STD / ADV on the display (STD = 3:2 pulldown) with 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i signals over HDMI. I have *not* been able to find a combo that works best with all material. FWIW, I'm currently using AUTO1 on the 59Avi with ADV on the display, upconverted to 1080i.

As an aside, the 59Avi also addresses audio jitter if you connect it to an iLink Pio receiver such as the 55Txi or 59Txi (I'm using the former). When you use the iLink, the decoding clock on the 59Avi is locked to the receiver clock using a system called PQLS (Pioneer Quartz Locking System). When I fire up a CD or DVD-A, the 59Avi display momentarily flashes "PQLS" to alert (advertise?) the lock is in place.

One other point. If you put a DVD-A in the 59Avi with HDMI activated, it won't play high bitrate audio (> 96Khz) over iLink due to HDCP issues. Even though I'm using HDMI for video only, I have to disable the HDMI out in order to get the 59Avi to play. This is not an issue for CD, DVD video, SACD, or DVD-A in low bitrate (e.g., DD or DTS) mode. A minor nuisance since I have exactly 1 DVD-A title...

Ross

Ross,
What dvdmann was referring to when he wrote "jitter" was actually a case of interlace related flicker with thin horizontal lines at 1080i.

-----------------------------------------------------------

The conflict you found re high-res audio over I-link for DVD-Audio when HDMI video is also activated is an important gotcha that DVD-Audio fans should be aware of if they are going to get a 59avi.

I don't know whether or not this is common to other DVD-Audio players that also have I-link audio and HDMI (or DVI) video outputs.

----------------------------------------------------------

The Pioneer plasmas, and their available 72Hz refresh rate (36 frames/sec), certainly should show better results given film rate DVD content. The idea is that a 24fps movie off the DVD can only be sped up to the 30fps rate of conventional TV by duplicating portions of the film frames unequally. Some frames get more screen time than other frames. But if you up the frame rate to 36fps you can give every film frame equal billing on screen (duplicate one half frame or "field" from every frame).

I spent quite some time trying to find real-world cases where the 72Hz rate of the Pio plamas made a significant difference in real world movies, but in the end decide to go with the better blacks of the Fujitsu plasma despite it's mere 60hz rate.
--Bob

Here is a link to a download of the discrete codes for the 59avi in MX700 format posted by Kir:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4782551#post4782551

I will add this to the first page as well.

Everybody keeps talking about PQ here but noone makes comparisons in AUDIO quality.Me I could care less about PQ.If I had my way I would buy a player that was a universal player that didn't do video.How is the audio compared to say the Esoteric in terms of SACD playback?I haven't been impressed with any of Denon,Pioneer or Marantz for that matter.

While I can't comment about some of the mega buck players in terms of sound quality, I've never heard better sound quality from any CD or DVD player than what I'm getting with my i-linked 59 AVi.

Thought some of the 59 AVi owners here would be interested in hearing what Stereophile A/V has to say about the 59 AVi...

"This is one of the best DVD players on the market, regardless of price. The images produced by the Pioneenr were nearly impossible to fault in either interlaced or progressive component mode."

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Ross,
What dvdmann was referring to when he wrote "jitter" was actually a case of interlace related flicker with thin horizontal lines at 1080i.


Just so I'm clear; both jitter and judder (the latter I describe as non-smooth or jerky movement of panned images) can be used to describe de-interlacing artifacts...?

Ross

Originally posted by graphicguy
Thought some of the 59 AVi owners here would be interested in hearing what Stereophile A/V has to say about the 59 AVi...

"This is one of the best DVD players on the market, regardless of price. The images produced by the Pioneenr were nearly impossible to fault in either interlaced or progressive component mode."

I'd agree....Really an excellent value for a solid player. I look at it as a great transitional player until BluRay arrives....and even after it does, I'll keeo the 59AVi for DVD duties.

Ross,
Sure. Nobody owns those words. It's just that your description of improperly shaky camera pans (poor handling of film to video frame rate conversion) is what those who know the secret handshake tend to call "judder" -- kind of a jumpy shudder -- meanwhile the digital audio Illuminati have appropriated "jitter" to mean one of various audible artifacts resulting from improper agreement on the clocking of a digital audio signal between two devices.

Meanwhile, what dvdmann saw would probably be called "flicker" by folks trying not to confuse it with jitter or judder.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Years ago I used to study something called the "history and philosophy of science," one subfield of which included the study of how important discoveries got delayed for years, sometimes for decades, because the people working on the issue in different countries couldn't agree on what to call things and couldn't understand each other's definitions. For example, what precisely is "work", and how does it differ from "heat", and "energy"?
--Bob

tunerguy,
Audio quality is a valid debate to be sure, but you'd probably get more interest in debating this in one of the "brand x vs. brand y" threads. Folks following THIS thread have already MADE their buying decision -- for now at least.
--Bob

just trying to make an educated (possible) buying desision.I
ve been using a 999ES for SACD & I would like my player to be as good of quality or else I pass it by.

How does the 59 handle BM? Does it have a adjustable crossover or is it fixed like the Denon pieces?

tunerguy,
SACD is not my thing, but when I was doing my own research on the 59avi it appeared to me that folks who had thought deeply about this preferred the Denon products (in a universal player), and similar comments have been coming from the folks who've looked closely at the Onkyo SP-1000 and its more expensive clones that carry the Integra label. There's a recent thread on buying decisions between the Denon 3910 and the Pioneer 59avi owners that might be of interest to you. There are also others who claim that SACD would best be handled by a dedicated audio player.

And yet there are obviously many satisfied 59avi owners who listen to SACD.

Unfortunately (I suppose) since audio is nigh unto perfect from any of the players mentioned here in any measurable sense, all such evaluations tend to be heavily in the nature of subjective claims. And the more exotic the amps and speakers used by the reviewer the farther afield such claims are from what an owner with more normal equipment might encounter.

The most important concern I've heard raised about the 59avi for SACD is that it doesn't provide Time Alignment for SACD over it's analog audio outputs. Thus you either need a receiver that can add Time Alignment to multi-channel analog audio inputs, or you need to invest in a receiver that will take an I-link digital audio connection from the 59avi.
--Bob

great thread. The only thing I can add is one minor peculiarity with my SACD playback:

The Police hybrid SACD: Every Breathe You Take is VERY sporadic in being able to play SACD modes. Sometimes when I load it, it will only play CD format. Weird...

NOTE: I did all the typical things, even exchanged the CD. It's just this one source material with this problem...

Bob Pariseau,
going back to HDMI 1080i on the front panel display.
The firmware I have is 1.506 (16), av1 2.0/2.8.

As far as the sound quality goes I would definately recommend to upgrade the power cable. I built flavor 3 VenHaus power cord (http://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html). Chris (the owner of VenHaus)sells all the parts you need to build this cable. You can purchase this cable pre-built if you don't want to spend your time on building one.
Also I noticed that the power cable changed the brightnes and color/tint settings. I had to readjust TV settings after I've changed it.

I guess its a good time for me to check in. I picked up a loaner 59AVi last Mon. and will receive my new unit next week.

Firmware: 506
Display: Panasonic 37PD25U
Connection: HDMI
Resolution: 480p
Calibration: Avia
Video Adj.: Direct/Auto 2

This particular player has had no problems with the 4 DVD-Rs I have tried thus far. After a good shakedown a JVB digital codefree mod will be installed.

I hope more owners will check in so that we can get a better picture on the build quality of the 59AVi. .

Here is an update on my DVD-R situation.

After more testing, I have been able to play some DVD-R's on the 59avi. It comes down to what method of burning was used. If it was a 100% direct copy of another disc, they work fine in the 59avi. If certain items were removed, those will NOT work, despite the fact that they work on all my other players.

Strange. But at least now I know that I can play some DVD-R's on the 59avi.

Intresting! I never had any problems playing DV-R's. I tried quite a few, from cheapest CompUsa brand to Memorex 8X. They all worked with no problems. It may be the way you burn those DVD-R's that cause trouble.
Question regarding multiregion mod. Do you still have to purchase an outboard Pal - NTSC converter?

Careful, guys. The DVD Player Forum rules prohibit discussion of details on copying stuff. Let's not get this thread closed.

Keep the discussion to 59avi issues for PLAYING these DVDs -- not how you managed to get them made in the first place. In the case where playback failure is related to how things were made, some PMs would probably be the best way to continue the discussion.
--Bob

The most important concern I've heard raised about the 59avi for SACD is that it doesn't provide Time Alignment for SACD over it's analog audio outputs. Thus you either need a receiver that can add Time Alignment to multi-channel analog audio inputs, or you need to invest in a receiver that will take an I-link digital audio connection from the 59avi.
Or, if your room allows, there's always the no-expense option: get out a length of string or measuring tape and place all your speakers equidistant to the listening/viewing position.

(And, of course, re-calibrate time alignment for all digital sources to "0", as no digital delay is now necessary.)

Originally posted by tpaxadpom
Question regarding multiregion mod. Do you still have to purchase an outboard Pal - NTSC converter?

PAL to NTSC conversion is performed by the onboard de-interlacer/scaler chip on some players, but not the 59AVi.

Bluesea,
There's a European variant of the 59avi that carries a different model number. Do you know if that one has more flexibility for PAL/NTSC?
--Bob

Quote.." The Sony allows you to select the color space. You can choose Auto, NTSC 3.58, NTSC 4.43, PAL, SECAM, etc. I initially was under the impression this player had the colorspace problems. Well tonight I verified that it does not have the colorspace problems."

This is true but the Sony and several dozen other PJ's are stretching the truth somewhat when they refer to their products as High Definition . If we feed them Standard Definition (BT.601) "data" from any DVD player , we will get a great picture with higher vertical resolution but still in SD colorspace . The problem arises when we feed them true HD (BT.709) "data" . If the particular PJ does not offer an option to change to HD colorspace , then this "better" input will be wasted .

From all the owners manuals available for download , it appears none of the LCD PJ's have this option and only DLP PJ"s over $5k have it (please update me if you find something different). For those with HD Plasma sets , it would be interesting to see if this is available to you . Not a great concern for those of us watching DVD or Satellite at present .

Scott.........................:rolleyes:

Hello, man this is a lot of information on the 59avi. I am just starting to think about replacing my old DVD player that I am using now, but have a question first if I may.

I have the Pioneer Elite 49 TXi receiver and I am getting a new Sony KDF-60XS955 television. How would I hook this set up to the DVD player (59avi).

Right now my old DVD is connected to the 49 TXi, matter of fact, all my components are connected to the 49 TXi. first. Is it better to connect the 59 avi directly to the TV. Or is it OK to connect it to the receiver first.

I hope you all can help someone that seems to be in the dark when it come to connecting this equipment up.

Thank you for your time and replies.

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Bluesea,
There's a European variant of the 59avi that carries a different model number. Do you know if that one has more flexibility for PAL/NTSC?
--Bob

Hi Bob,
Unfortunately I do not have any info on the euro version. Also, I wanted to express my thanks to you and others for sharing your wealth of knowledge on the 59AVi--it has been most helpful in the setting up of my player.

In terms of the iScanHD+ and its projected implementation of 480i through HDMI, at this point I'll have to regard it as a theoretical possiblity at best. It seems at this point that SDI is the way to go. Kris Deering made an interesting comment (in the locked 5910 thread) that the true test of these scalers was in how they can improve bad material.

micro,
If you are going to take advantage of the 59avi's digital video output (HDMI connection) then you will have to cable the video directly from the player to your TV since your 49txi receiver is not equipped to switch digital video from different sources -- i.e., it is not an HDMI switcher.

Meanwhile you would send digital AUDIO from the 59avi directly to your receiver and you would simply ignore the audio that is also going out on the HDMI cable. You could use optical/coax digital audio connection, or if the 49txi has an I-link input you'd be even better off using an I-link cable. However I think that Pioneer starts I-link support only at the 56txi level receiver.

To select your DVD player for playback then, you would need to select that source on your receiver for audio and also on your TV for video. This is easier to do if you use one of the various programmable remote controls that can record multiple commands to be sent out for one button press.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alternatively, if you were going to use Component (analog) video connections to your TV -- for instance if it doesn't have an HDMI or DVI digital video input -- then you could hook them up through the 49txi so that it could switch video sources for you as well as selecting the player as the audio source. The 59avi will only send 480i or 480p out via its Component video outputs (no 720p or 1080i), so if your 49txi is capable of switching Component video at all, it will have no bandwidth problems if the 59avi is connected as one of its selectable Component video sources.
--Bob

Micro, Some say that 1080i via HDMI to the Sony display works great. I am not sure why as I would think 480P would be better. Who knows. You'll need to try it out yourself. 788P is an odd bird.

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Careful, guys. The DVD Player Forum rules prohibit discussion of details on copying stuff. Let's not get this thread closed.

Keep the discussion to 59avi issues for PLAYING these DVDs -- not how you managed to get them made in the first place. In the case where playback failure is related to how things were made, some PMs would probably be the best way to continue the discussion.
--Bob

Thanks Bob, I edited my post accordingly.

I've had my 59 for about 2 months and have been extrememly pleased. The HDMI cable that I had was not working, so I've been running Component through my 56txi. I thought the picture on my Panny 700 looked fabulous. Well, this weekend, I finally got around to replacing my HDMI cable and I must say tht the picture difference is significant. I put in the new Fifth Element and did some comparisons by swithching from HDMI to Component. My wife and I immediately noticed that the HDMI connection was much better. It was brighter and showed more detail. For example, there's a scene when we're first introduced to Milla Jojovich (when she's in the tank) that has the two men talking about her at the control panel. The one military gentlman has on a dark V-neck sweater and a dark tie. With component, it was a little hard to tell where the sweater ended and where the tie started. With the HDMI, not only was this very clear, but you could also see the knot of the tie very clearly where you could not on the Component.

Thanks to all in this thread for providing the tweaks and if you're debating whether or not to go HDMI, I say DO IT.



Stew

Stew,
Remember to re-calibrate the basic blacks/whites/colors/sharpness levels on your TV for the HDMI connection. It is quite common for TVs to need different level settings between Component and HDMI. For example, HDMI may need even LESS Sharpness than the already reduced level of Sharpness you were using with your calibrated Component input.

These digital connections really do repay any time spent getting them dialed in "just right".
--Bob

Tunerguy,

The 59avi has set crossover frequencies that are dependent on your selecting either large or small.

Does anyone know what these "canned" crossover frequencies are?

James

I believe, but I'm not sure, that the crossover is 80Hz for steering base to the subwoofer from any speaker channel set as "small", but that no bass is steered to the subwoofer from any speaker channel set as "large".
--Bob

However I think that Pioneer starts I-link support only at the 56txi level receiver.

The 49txi has i.Link inputs. "i" suffixes are for "i.Link equipped" in Elite model #'s. 47ai, 59avi, 49txi, 56txi, 59txi, etc.

larry

That's my understanding as well. 80Hz is probably the best set frequency to do this, though I may set it a bit lower if I had the option (for the front two speakers anyway).

PooperScooper,
Thanks for that clarification re Pioneer I-linked equipped products!
--Bob

Review of the latest Sony 975 SACD/CD/DVD player in the new S&V. It uses a ... 120 Hz crossover for CD and SACD.

Also, as far as that DVD-R that I have? Got confirmation that it indeed wasn't finalized. ;) The dude is going to get me another one.

Jeff:

That's my plan.....hang onto the 59 AVi until Blu-Ray (if that's the direction the industry is goin?????) players and software gets a couple of iterations under its belt. Plus, I'll also wait until those prices drop. I figure I'm 3-4 years away from upgrading the 59 AVi.

Can't comment about analog bass management of the 59 AVi, although I do think it is 80Hz for the crossover. I can comment about i-link for all hi rez formats. It's the best audio performances I've heard.......ever! That said, I'm using the 59 AVi with a 59 TXi AVR which does BM via MCACC.

graphicguy,
Just curious but have you tested the automatic speaker setup of your 59txi against what you would have done manually? I.e., have you run some separate tests with a sound pressure meter and also double checked the time alignment to see how good the automatic setup with te microphones actually turns out to be in the 59txi?
--Bob

Frankly I think that one should always adjust the speaker volume manually with an SPL meter for better accuracy. My Parasound C 2 has auto calibration as well, and it was actually fairly close to accurate. But fairly close is still off by a few dB depending on the speaker....and the subwoofer wasn't even close.

Hi Bob.....I did compare MCACC to what I did with the Rat Shack meter and a tape measure. 59 TXi did a better job than I could do manually by a singnificant margin....most particularly with getting rid of some BM anomalies in my room. Long and short of it, with MCACC the bass is totally integrated with all the other speakers in my set-up without any localization cues present. Although I have di-pole surrounds, I can't pinpoint any directionality with surround material either.

Front to back, side to side imaging is very cohesive compared to what I got by just using an tape measure and SPL meter.

Moreover, rechecking with a tape measure and SPL meter, I could not have gotten any better measurements than what MCACC did.....even with my sub. Probably the biggest difference has been the LFE material that plays through my system by using MCACC. Although my surrounds only go down to about 70 Hz, I could swear they sound like they go down to 20 Hz by using MCACC.

Graphicguy,
Interesting! Now as I understand it the 59txi doesn't also try to do automatic room equalization ala the automatic setup system in say the Lexicon MC-12B, right? Just time alignment, level setting, and bass steering. No frequency based corrections for the room.

Also, do you find any difference in the usefulness of the automatic setup according to whether you are playing DVDs, CDs, or SACD? Some folks have reported instances with other players and receivers where the base management that was right for DVDs and CDs was grossly off when playing SACDs.
--Bob

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Graphicguy,
Interesting! Now as I understand it the 59txi doesn't also try to do automatic room equalization ala the automatic setup system in say the Lexicon MC-12B, right? Just time alignment, level setting, and bass steering. No frequency based corrections for the room.

Also, do you find any difference in the usefulness of the automatic setup according to whether you are playing DVDs, CDs, or SACD? Some folks have reported instances with other players and receivers where the base management that was right for DVDs and CDs was grossly off when playing SACDs.
--Bob

Hey Bob...the 59 TXi AVR's MCACC also has 9 bands of eqaulization in addition to room reverberation measurements/adjustments that it does automatically. Since I use i-link with my 59 AVi DVD player, it's all done in the digital domain....no need to set different crossover settings for each speaker since the MCACC does that for me and does it well.

It won't make a poorly mastered CD sound better, but I find DVD-A, SACD, DVD to be spot on. In fairness, since I've really shifted my listening to DVD concert disks and hi-rez, I haven't listened to many redbook CDs (relegating them to use in my car, mostly).

Thanks for the info! These devices really do add features faster than I can keep up with them.
--Bob

Bob...I totally know what you mean. As soon as I think I'm "state-of-the art", I find out I'm outdated again. If I triedd to stay current, I'd be swapping out gear every month.

For right now, I'm set until blu-ray becomes the norm.

I've read the manual a few times and can't find a reference to a zoom function for the 59avi. Has anyone, by chance, found any type of a zoom function?

Originally posted by hibeta
I've read the manual a few times and can't find a reference to a zoom function for the 59avi. Has anyone, by chance, found any type of a zoom function?
There is no zoom function.

You have limited options in the 59avi itself.

Set this in Initial Settings / Video Output for everything except HDMI -- but set it in Initial Settings / Options / HDMI Settings for HDMI output (the two sets of settings are independent of one another).

If your TV is a 16:9 (widescreen) TV, your choices are "Wide" mode which passes 16:9 content unchanged and stretches 4:3 content left and right to fill the 16:9 frame (distorting the image -- i.e., circles look like wide ovals), or "Compressed" mode which also passes 16:9 content unchanged but puts black pillar boxes on either side of 4:3 content so as to preserve the original undistorted shape of the 4:3 movie nestled between the two pillar boxes on either side padding it out to 16:9 width.

If your TV is a 4:3 (conventionally shaped) TV, your choices are "Letter Box" mode which passes 4:3 content through unchanged and generates black letter box bars above and below 16:9 content so as to pad it out to the squarer 4:3 shape, or "Pan & Scan" mode which also passes 4:3 content through unchanged but chops the sides off of 16:9 content so that it fills the 4:3 frame without distortion but with material cropped off either side.

In either case, the 16:9 or 4:3 content detection happens automatically once you make your choice -- even scene by scene which sometimes happens when viewing "extras" content on a DVD.

For folks with 16:9 TVs, I recommend you only use "Compressed" mode at 720p or 1080i resolution, since at 480i or 480p resolution the generated pillar box bars for 4:3 content will detract from the resolution, particularly the color resolution of the 4:3 content nestled in the middle. The alternative for 480i or 480p is to use Wide mode and use a stretch/zoom mode on your TV to compress the image back to 4:3 shape and generate the pillar box bars -- which your TV can do without loss of resolution.

If you are watching "wider than wide screen" movies, even on a 16:9 TV, you will see Letter Box bars top and bottom because they are in the content coming off the DVD (which includes no wider than 16:9 frames). The 59avi has no stretch/zoom modes to distort or crop such wider than wide screen movies to fill your TV's frame. Some TVs may offer this option, but it is unusual to find it on TVs when using high res digital video inputs, since the TV makers have not yet determined the marketing need to pay for sufficiently fast scalers to do the job.

If you prefer to watch distorted or cropped movies in such case instead of the letter box bars that are there to preserve the original aspect ratio of the "wider than wide screen" movie, your workaround would be to switch to lower output resolution, and quite possibly to analog video cables, so as to get to the stretch/zoom modes in your TV that are only available for that sort of input signal.

Note also that "wide screen" DVDs come in two flavors. The "anamorphically enhanced" or "enhanced for 16:9 TVs" wide screen DVDs actually represent 16:9 frames and are your best choice. But there are also "letterboxed" wide screen DVDs which are actually recordings of wide screen movies intended to be watched on 4:3 TVs. As such, they include letterbox bars top and bottom to pad the movie to the 4:3 shape, and all those pixels are just wasted resolution. In addition, the 59avi will detect such movies as 4:3 content (even though they include a wide screen movie), and so in "16:9 Compressed" mode the 59avi will generate black pillar box bars on either side of the movie. Since the movie already has its own letter box bars included in the content on the DVD, the net effect is you will see a properly shaped movie but completely surrounded by black on all 4 sides.
--Bob

Thank you for the replies.

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau


Note also that "wide screen" DVDs come in two flavors. The "anamorphically enhanced" or "enhanced for 16:9 TVs" wide screen DVDs actually represent 16:9 frames and are your best choice. But there are also "letterboxed" wide screen DVDs which are actually recordings of wide screen movies intended to be watched on 4:3 TVs. As such, they include letterbox bars top and bottom to pad the movie to the 4:3 shape, and all those pixels are just wasted resolution. In addition, the 59avi will detect such movies as 4:3 content (even though they include a wide screen movie), and so in "16:9 Compressed" mode the 59avi will generate black pillar box bars on either side of the movie. Since the movie already has its own letter box bars included in the content on the DVD, the net effect is you will see a properly shaped movie but completely surrounded by black on all 4 sides.
--Bob

Bob,

I put in Jurrasic Park III yesterday and while I didn't watch the movie, I wanted to see the trailers for all three movies (which are on this 1 disc). All three trailers were formated in 16:9, but it was much smaller than my screen (black bars on top, bottom, and both sides). Is this because the trailers were letterboxed (I have it set to 16:9 Compressed)? I guess I haven't watched a letterboxed movie yet, because I haven't seen this before.

When watching a letterboxed movie, should I change the setting to 16:9 wide to fill up more of the screen or would that distort it too much?

Also, is there a way to have the DVD players front display show the time remaining in the movie? Currently it shows how much time has elapsed in the current chapter.


Thanks,

Stew

Stew,
Yes, trailers and "extras" on a DVD are often produced in only 4:3 format, even when showing wide content, and then the same 4:3 content is put on both widescreen and fullscreen DVDs. So what you saw was how a letterboxed movie would look on a 16:9 TV in "Compressed" mode.

If you have a letterboxed DVD, the best way to view it is going to depend upon what flexibility your TV offers in Stretch/Zoom modes. Some TVs have a specific zoom mode for receiving a letter boxed movie (a 16:9 movie embedded in a 4:3 frame with letterbox bars top and bottom) and zooming in on it to fill the 16:9 screen again. Of course that's a lower resolution approach then if you used an anamorphic wide screen movie. You'll just have to experiment to see what works best for you. Or only buy anamorphic wide screen movies.

The Display button on the remote brings up two pages of info on your TV screen including time and chapters elapsed and time and chapters remaining info. I seem to recall that the front panel shifts to showing time remaining when that page of Display info is showing on the TV but I might be mistaken. I don't know of any way to adjust the front panel info as a preference or menu selection.
--Bob

Can someone PM me on where to buy online.Interested in checking out
authorized and non authorized dealers as well as possible refurbished.

RONM,

Augiogon and videogon often have authorized resellers posting there.

Here is the link for European version of 59avi - 868avi: http://www.pioneer-eur.com/eur/product_detail.jsp?product_id=5848&taxonomy_id=45-64
btw they don't have an elite product line. This player is multiregion and supports both Pal and NTSC (perhaps not in all countries it is multiregion by default). Also the instruction manual for 59avi is universal. It is the same manual for 969avi, which I think is Australian model. It also capable of playing Pal movies. 969avi would be the best choice since its power supply can handle a broad range of intput voltages, so that it can virtually work in any country.
Here is the link where you can find 868avi reviews in European magazines. Just search for dvd players, made by pioneer manufacter and then select 868avi to see the review: http://www.homecinemachoice.com/reviews/

Originally posted by tpaxadpom
Here is the link for European version of 59avi - 868avi: http://www.pioneer-eur.com/eur/product_detail.jsp?product_id=5848&taxonomy_id=45-64
btw they don't have an elite product line. This player is multiregion and supports both Pal and NTSC (perhaps not in all countries it is multiregion by default). Also the instruction manual for 59avi is universal. It is the same manual for 969avi, which I think is Australian model. It also capable of playing Pal movies. 969avi would be the best choice since its power supply can handle a broad range of intput voltages, so that it can virtually work in any country.
Here is the link where you can find 868avi reviews in European magazines. Just search for dvd players, made by pioneer manufacter and then select 868avi to see the review: http://www.homecinemachoice.com/reviews/

Thanks for the info.

An important factor for myself and perhaps for others who want multi-region capability but are stuck with either an exclusively PAL or NTSC display, is the players ability to to perform the PAL to NTSC/NTSC to PAL conversion on-board. These Pioneers do not do conversion.

I just noticed that with the direct-to-display HDMI connection, I no longer have access to my receivers OSD. Is there a work around for this?

Bluesea,
Not that I know of. I use a separate S-video run from my Lexicon audio processor to my display for those infrequent occasions when I need to make menu item changes. Other stuff I do using the front panel display on the Lexicon.
--Bob

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Bluesea,
Not that I know of. I use a separate S-video run from my Lexicon audio processor to my display for those infrequent occasions when I need to make menu item changes. Other stuff I do using the front panel display on the Lexicon.
--Bob

Bummer, I'm so used to the huge OSD. If I ran S-video from all components to the receiver, would that keep the OSD and still benefit from the HDMI and other component cable connection's superior qualities? DVD player, DVD player, Receiver, etc...

Bob-

I had a Pan S97 hooked up HDMI>DVI into an IF 7200 working w/out problem. I hooked up my new (but used: 2 mos. old) 59AVi w/the same HDMI connection that worked on the S97. (Pure Audio is Off.)

The HDMI light did not go on on the 59AVi, and in the set up menu when I clicked on HDMI settings I got the Message: "cannot access these functions." I tried powering player first, then proj, and the reverse. Plugged the HDMI into the S97 again and it worked perfectly.

Am I doing something wrong? No HDCP Handshake? Thanks.

Bob

Cissado,
For every device that you have hooked up directly to your TV, also run a video connection to your receiver (Component or S-video). Then run Component or S-video from your receiver to your TV as well..

When you want to use the on-screen display functions combining the receiver's display with the source devices image or on-screen display, simply select the input on your TV that comes from the receiver.

Once you are done setting things, if you want to take advantage of the better image quality of the direct connection from the source -- for example if it is a digital connection. Then switch the TV to that direct input.
--Bob

Robert,
Double check that the DVI input on your display is supposed to be HDCP-compliant.

If it is, then double check that the HDMI plug is properly seated in the 59avi. Hold it in by hand for 10-15 seconds to see if the connection gets made.

If that doesn't work, your 59avi may have a bad HDMI output. You might need to bring it into a store or someplace else where you can try it on another HDMI TV.
--Bob

Bob-

Yes my DVI in proj. is HDCP compliant. I've had 5 HDCP players hooked into it with no problem. Called Pioneer, and reset the player to new; still did noy recognize HDMI. Made sure HDMI was well seated. Pioneer's (and my) conclusion: defective HDMI in. TRhaks for the help.

Bob

Well, finally had the opportunity to hook-up my new 59AVi and all I can say is the video and audio are outstanding!! My 55TXi loves it's new partner and my 730 RPTV loves the HDMI feed. Still playing with the video navigations and settings. Trying a SACD tonight.

This is an awesome piece of technology!

bspr.....do yourself a favor.....get Floyd's DSOTM as your first SACD. Then prepare to be floored.......

do you guys think $1049 delivered from an authorized dealer is a good price for this unit?

Yes.

I paid $75.00 more than that and I was satisfied.

I paid even more that Rob, and it was worth it. But hey, it was from a B & M and this is Hawaii after all. I may be out a few more bucks, but I still go to the beach 4 times a week.

Originally posted by graphicguy
bspr.....do yourself a favor.....get Floyd's DSOTM as your first SACD. Then prepare to be floored.......

True, but if you really want to be blown away I would suggest picking up a couple of the incredible audiophile recordings on DVD-A from AIX Records (http://www.aixrecords.com/) .

I particularly recommend Lawrence Juber's Guitar Noir. You can also get their free sampler when you order something else.

These are truly amazing recordings. I've never heard anything like it. Note that the music on these discs were recorded at 96 kHz/24 bits! And they use MLP.

As good as DSOTM is on SACD, it was still recorded in the early 70's and it just can't compare to what AIX has done with these modern recordings. So, if you really want to see what the 59avi can do with its hi rez capability, give AIX a try!

I just took another look at the MPEG Decoder Test (Title 15 Chapter 7) on DVE. It includes, among other things a red and a blue "bow tie" pattern that shows combing.

The working assumption in previous discussions of this is that this was an example of the "4:2:0 ICP" problem the 59avi is known to have -- a type of de-interlacing chroma problem in the face of video frame rate source content. There is no known workaround for this problem and it is seen by some folks who like to watch a lot of different video based DVDs such as concert DVDs.

However, I just noticed that switching Pure Cinema to "ON" eliminates the problem on this chart! The problem remains visible using "OFF", "AUTO1", or "AUTO2".

Since Pure Cinema "ON" forces *FILM* mode processing, what people have been seeing in this bow tie pattern is evidently not due to improper handling of video based material, but rather a failure to automatically apply film mode processing.

I don't have that much video based material, and I haven't actually noticed "4:2:0 ICP" in that which I do have. But for others seeing problems with what purports to be "video" based material, you might try forcing film mode by setting Pure Cinema to "ON" just to see if that helps.

Doing so may introduce other problems which are worse, however.

[EDITED to correct the name of the problem to the one used in the Secrets tests.]
--Bob

With exchange I paid just over what Rob did from a B&M and I am extremely happy. Rob - I took you up on that Lawrence Juber DVD-A suggestion and it will be waiting for me to listen to when I get home in 3 weeks. DSOTM is a great mix, but I prefer Roxy Music Avalon.

Paul,
As an aside re: your signature, you might be interested in the related theory as regards "smoke". To wit: Once you let the smoke out of something it stops working.

This is obviously true about things like firewood. Once you let all the smoke out it's no good anymore, at least as firewood. But it also applies well to electronic devices. If you let the smoke out of your computer or TV, for example, it will likely stop working.
;)
--Bob

Yes, I understand the theory is that 'smoke makes things work', because once you let it out, they stop working :)

There is another theory developed by Buckaroo Banzai:

No matter where you go - there you are........

but there is a corollary:

You can't get there from here - you have to be somewhere else first.


Now back to our regulary scheduled posts :) ;)

Paul-

Let me know what you think after listening to the Juber DVD-A from AIX. I am confident that you will be impressed with both the music, and especially the sound quality!

You must be reading my mind because it's the first one I purchased. I've been playing DSOTM since 73' and I swear I'm hearing new vocals and instruments. I was blown away by the clarity of a SACD. Mixing 48 analog tracks into 2 you lose alot of what the musicians were feeling when they recorded the music and this format gives new life to old tracks. Toys in The Attic and Eat a Peach are next.

Rob - based on the short sound clip at AIX I already like the music. I'm a guitar player myself and have had the pleasure of seeing some of the really good ones live over the years. Al DiMeola, John McLaughlin, Paco DeLucia, Steve Morse, Jesse Cook.....can't wait to get home.

One good thing about the AIX discs is I can purchase them in Canada (no border fees and excess shipping) through HMV online (amazon.ca). I'll let you know what I think of the recording.

With my 59AVi I'm doing the BM via an ICBM so until I get a pre-pro with i-Link, everything comes out of the MC analog outputs. Time Alignment is a problem, but I'm sitting close enough to the centre of my speaker setup that it doesn't seem to make that much difference to my ears. With the ICBM at least I get the same BM for both SACD and DVD-A.

Hey Bob -

Just got my 59 today and hooked it DVI to my Fujitsu P50 (30 series). Since you have the exact same setup, can you post your settings?

So far I have:

AUTO2
Direct
1080i

Not sure which res I like best but as you know you can use wide2 on the P50 with 480p, and only wide with 720p/1080i. Since the scaler and deinterlacer in the P50 are very good, I'm inclined to go 480p, but the 1080i is looking good so far (no combing). Using LOTR2 as the ref DVD.

Question - does it look like a different aspect ratio using 480p/wide2 vs. 720p/1080i/wide? For some reason the wide2 mode seems to be a bit wider.

goombawa,
Yes the stretch modes for the lower resolutions on the P50 can be a bit confusing. What you need to do is to get a calibration disc like Avia and put up a wide screen resolution chart so that you can make sure circles in the center and the corners still look like circles. Otherwise you will be distorting your movies.

---------------------------------------------------------

Also -- VERY IMPORTANT -- the DVI input on the P50 ships in a factory default setting that is designed for receiving signals from computers. You need to go and change the setting for the DVI input from it's default (DVI1 as I recall) to the alternate setting (DVI2 as I recall). This is actually specified in the manual as the way to set up for DVD player or set top box source devices but it is in fine print and easy to miss.

---------------------------------------------------------

As far as the 59avi, you are already using the settings I use -- 1080i, HDMI Direct, AUTO2. I also have 16:9 Compressed mode selected for dealing with 4:3 content. You may want to leave that at 16:9 Wide until you are done calibrating.

My current settings on the P50 are:

Contrast -3
Brightness +8
Color +2
Tint -3
Sharpness -8
Picture Mode Fine
Precision Setting Luminance 50
Precision Setting Black Level -1
Precision Setting Color Temperature Standard

The R, G, B, values for User Color Temperature have been left in the factory defaults for Fine mode's color temperature Standard.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

One last hint, I use a Dtronics DVI switch box to switch sources. I find that sometimes the P50 doesn't properly re-do the handshake when I switch from some other digital video source device to the 59avi. The resulting image problems are not so obvious that you would immediately notice them but they are real.

The workaround is to powercycle the P50 *AFTER* the 59avi comes on line. That is, wait for the 59avi to announce on it's front panel that it has set up a DVI connection, then hit power on the P50 remote (to put it in standby), wait 5 seconds or so for the blue light to go out on the 59avi indicating the DVI connection has gone away, and then hit the power button on the P50 remote again.

I do this now as a matter of course each time I set up to use the 59avi.

If you are not using a switch box this may not be necessary, but it's a useful trick to try if you ever see a truly puzzling image defect after having selected the 59avi as input via the DVI.

Once you've done this, the connection will remain rock solid from there on out. So it's only a thing you might need to do when switching from other sources to the 59avi -- i.e., not something you might need to do periodically while watching movies.
--Bob

Bob - you are one of the most thorough posters on this board. I really appreciate you taking the time to post. :)

I already had the input on DVI2 for some reason, so that was ok. I don't use a switcher. so that's okay as well. However if down the road I get one for my cable box it's good to have that info you posted.


My P50 settings are:

Contrast 0
Brightness +5
Color +2
Tint +5
Sharpness 0
Picture Mode Fine
Precision Setting Luminance 85
Precision Setting Black Level 0
Precision Setting Color Temperature User (229/240/250-RGB)

For whatever reason, my P50 has a slight red push hence my settings.

It's tempting to play with the pic controls on the 59 but then again I don't quite understand the concept of tweaking the source. In theory all the adjustments should be made on the display side (my thinking anyway). I would think you'd want to send the purest signal possible to the panel and then work from there.

I have AVIA but a friend borrowed it last week. Need to get it back. I will say thought that it really didn't make that much of a difference from factory settings when I calibrated it (as you can see by my settings above)

I'm surprised that you don't find that Luminance setting WAY too bright. In my dimmed viewing room I sometimes feel that the Luminance 50 setting is too bright.

I also think you may want to re-look at Sharpness.

When you get Avia again, bring up the Sharpness chart and concentrate on the vertical black lines in the middle of the chart -- forget about the "horizontal frequency sweep" across the bottom.

Turn Sharpness all the way up and you will see distinct white halos around those vertical lines. That's "ringing". Turn Sharpness all the way down and those halos should completely vanish but the lines will look a little fuzzy. Turn Sharpness up slowly to reduce the fuzzies but stop before the first signs of halo start to re-appear.

That's the proper Sharpness setting. The factory default setting of 0 is not as bad as is shipped on some TVs but it is still too high.
--Bob

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
I'm surprised that you don't find that Luminance setting WAY too bright. In my dimmed viewing room I sometimes feel that the Luminance 50 setting is too bright.

I also think you may want to re-look at Sharpness.

When you get Avia again, bring up the Sharpness chart and concentrate on the vertical black lines in the middle of the chart -- forget about the "horizontal frequency sweep" across the bottom.

Turn Sharpness all the way up and you will see distinct white halos around those vertical lines. That's "ringing". Turn Sharpness all the way down and those halos should completely vanish but the lines will look a little fuzzy. Turn Sharpness up slowly to reduce the fuzzies but stop before the first signs of halo start to re-appear.

That's the proper Sharpness setting. The factory default setting of 0 is not as bad as is shipped on some TVs but it is still too high.
--Bob

Since you have your brightness at +8 and black level at -1, I can see how 85 would be really bright. If you put the BL at 0 and lower your brightness a few points you'll see it isn't quite as torchy. However I like a good amount of punch in the pq and in Fine mode (which I use for everything) I need the higher lum to get that punchiness. P.S. I do not have exhibition mode on.

I'll try the sharpness test when I get the Avia disc back. :)

Do you use any noise reduction? I usually have it off but sometimes try min.

For those interested in the Pio 59avi + IScan HD combo.

I was using 480p over HDMI to the IScan that was then doing the scaling. But I was able (finally got some time off) to try 480i over COMPONENT to the IScan, that is now doing the de-interlacing and scaling, and then out over DVI to my projector from the IScan.

Picture is better, smoother, more film-like. Even the blacks are better. The IScan is doing an awesome job with that 480i signal, even if it's an analog signal. I always tought that 480p over HDMI to the IScan was the way to go, but 480i over component is superior.

And I will stay like that until DVDO will release the patch to pass 480i over HDMI. I use the "professionnal' setting loaded in memory1, Auto2, and 7.5IRE. I was using 0IRE with HDMI direct, but at 480i, 0IRE is unwatchable... like others using 480i in this thread, 7.5IRE is the way to go for me.

LEVESQUE,

I have been out of this thread for a while but remember you being a 'dyed in the wool' Denon 5900 guy...Correct?

Anyways, I like what I am reading about the I-Scan. I, too, have a 59 AVi and considered trying a scaler.

What is the MSRP on a I-Scan with HDMI?? What benefits are you seeing?

I don't believe there is an IScan HD[+] with HDMI. It has DVI input. The "patch" is supposed to trick the HDMI device on the other end that it is HDMI and can accept 480i. But whatever the exact details, you will be able to get 480i into the IScan HD+ from your 59avi.

LEVESQUE,
That goes to show you that an extra D/A and A/D conversion isn't always bad. :)

larry

Originally posted by PooperScooper
I don't believe there is an IScan HD[+] with HDMI. It has DVI input. The "patch" is supposed to trick the HDMI device on the other end that it is HDMI and can accept 480i. But whatever the exact details, you will be able to get 480i into the IScan HD+ from your 59avi.

LEVESQUE,
That goes to show you that an extra D/A and A/D conversion isn't always bad. :)

larry

We should make it clear that that "patch" is not yet available from DVDO. They are "working on it", but there is no indication of when this would be released, or even if it will work.

Levesque,
Did switching to 7.5 IRE at Component 480i eliminate the yellow problem you mentioned in your PM?
--Bob

Originally posted by LEVESQUE
For those interested in the Pio 59avi + IScan HD combo.

I was using 480p over HDMI to the IScan that was then doing the scaling. But I was able (finally got some time off) to try 480i over COMPONENT to the IScan, that is now doing the de-interlacing and scaling, and then out over DVI to my projector from the IScan.

Picture is better, smoother, more film-like. Even the blacks are better. The IScan is doing an awesome job with that 480i signal, even if it's an analog signal. I always tought that 480p over HDMI to the IScan was the way to go, but 480i over component is superior.

And I will stay like that until DVDO will release the patch to pass 480i over HDMI. I use the "professionnal' setting loaded in memory1, Auto2, and 7.5IRE. I was using 0IRE with HDMI direct, but at 480i, 0IRE is unwatchable... like others using 480i in this thread, 7.5IRE is the way to go for me.

It's about time ;) I asked you if you compared the two about a month ago. You could have been enjoying the improvement that whole time. Here's another ;) so you know I'm only razzing you.

I am running the same combo too but don't have DVI or HDMI on my display so I had no choice. It's nice to hear that you find it favorable though as I am also totally impressed. It seems that I have it set up optimally and have never seen a better image to date. My only complaint now is the layer change which I can live with no problem.

If you want a great DVD-Audio disc to demo your system, try:

Ton Koopman - J.S. Bach Organ Spectacular (Warner/Teldec)

Nothing like a grand old pipe organ in an old European church to get that surround feeling.

So do most of you guys think the iscan HD+ does a superior job of deinterlacing on film mode compared to just using the pioneer 59 avi straight to the display? I am trying to decide if It might be a benefit to add the HD+.

I think that question largely depends on what type of display you have steviec.

Wow it must be close then. I am upgrading to a dlp projector soon . Theoretically if there is not much difference I'll save some money.

I have NOT seen a iScan in use myself, but I only hear good things. Then again, I think many would also agree that many of the advantages to the iScan would be lost on a 720dlp (such as custom resolutions).

If you have other sources that you would really like to upconvert as well (cable, satellite, VCR,XBOX) the iScan starts to make more sense.

Otherwise, the iScan's advantage over using the 59avi would only be its better scaling and deinterlacing ability. How much better this would be I can't tell you obviously since I haven't seen it. My guess is that it would be fairly subtle. Personally I have decided to wait for the next generation outboard scaler to make that purchase (with the Realta chip).

I was hoping for info on certain video adjustments on the 59 avi.
I am set to auto 2 and using component connection,0 ire.
The adjustment for progressive motion, do I adjust using avia,
by eye or leave it alone?Also am I better off leaving the noise reduction
adjustments off or is there a way to adjust these via avia.
Lastly,do I use the controls on my Pioneer elite 59avi to adjust contrast and
brightness or these controls on my front projector(IF 4805)?Possibly
a combination of both?

RONM,
I suggest you start with the factory default settings for the Pioneer 59avi's Component outputs and then make all calibration adjustments using only the controls on your display.

Except for Pure Cinema mode (automatic film vs. video detection and processing) you would likely not need to adjust the 59avi's settings for 480p either for calibration or on a movie by movie basis. If you use 480i, there's a report that you may need to select the 7.5 IRE Blacks setting to get the best signal.

The default for Component outputs is called "Professional" mode. I suggest you load the settings for Professional into a video adjustment memory (e.g. Memory 1) so that you can see what they are. To do that, select Memory 1 as your desired video settings -- that will exit the selection menu. Now go back into Video Adjust and you'll see an additional item for adjusting what's in Memory 1. Select that and you'll now see a list of all the settings currently in Memory 1. At the top of that list is an item for loading a bunch of settings in at once. Use that and select "Professional" as the source and you will have now loaded the default "Professional" settings into Memory 1. The "Professional" settings themselves can not be changed, but once you've loaded them into a Memory you could change them if you found the need. You can always re-load "Professional" into Memory 1 to get back to that default set.

If after doing your best to calibrate using the controls on your display you still see issues you would like to correct, THEN consider making changes in the 59avi's default settings. But on the whole, most people seem to get the best results with the default settings.

The "motion" adjustments are, I believe, used when de-interlacing video (not film) based content. Since the frames are made up of interlaced fields that are recorded slightly separated in time, what you have is a slightly motion-blurred double exposure. The player attempts to do a better job de-interlacing moving portions of the image AND still portions of the image by distinguishing moving areas from still areas, and does quite well. But you can alter it's bias in this regard with this control. For film based content, each frame of the film is recorded at once and then the player deals with it as if it were recorded in an interlaced fashion. Film based content has it's own de-interlacing problems due to the need to introduce duplicated fields periodically to generate the 30 fps video frame rate from the 24 fps film rate. But I don't think the motion controls affect what the player does with film based content..

The "noise reduction" controls *MIGHT* help if you have poorly made DVDs with excess imaging noise (that screws up the MPEG compression algorithms) or excess compression due to poor choices made by the producers. I've yet to hear of anyone reporting they get better results changing those from the 59avi default settings.
--Bob

Thanks Bob,I have it set up as you described and looks great.
I figured the noise reduction were best left at default but really
had no idea what progressive motion control was but now
realize will have no effect on my watching typical dvd's.

RONM:

I am in the same situation as you are. I have an ISF'd Pioneer Elite pro710hd that doesn't have DVI or HDMI so I am using the component connection. I recently got a 59avi and am using it in progressive mode. I have never calibrated my own set. I have ordered a copy of Digital Video Essentials but before I go messing with things I just wanted to be clear on what you did. You loaded the 'professional' settings into a memory and the only thing you changed on the player settings was - PureCinema changed from AUTO 1 to AUTO 2 and the Black Setup changed from 7.5 IRE to 0 IRE correct? All other adjustments you made from your display device correct? So now when I get my DVE disc any changes I need to make I will make on my TV. I can just leave my dvd player alone now. What the heck is the difference between 7.5 and 0 IRE anyway? Other than the picture looks darker when set to 0?

Lee,
If I recall correctly, 0 IRE is actually the default setting for the "Professional" factory default set of settings for Component, analog video output.

In any event for the details on what's going on with the 0 IRE vs 7.5 IRE stuff see the following thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=494606

Simply put these are just two different voltage standards for an analog video signal. The IRE levels are another way of describing the voltage on the cable that represents "Black". 0 IRE only looks darker than 7.5 IRE because you have not yet calibrated your display to properly display images using the lower voltage standard yet. Once you have recalibrated your display (i.e., re-adjusted blacks/whites levels with the Brightness and Contrast controls respectively) the resulting image should look IDENTICAL.

Some hardware prefers one setting vs. the other, and in such cases you have to pick the setting that works best with your hardware. The setup options thread referenced above goes into the details on that.
--Bob

Originally posted by LEVESQUE
For those interested in the Pio 59avi + IScan HD combo.

I was using 480p over HDMI to the IScan that was then doing the scaling. But I was able (finally got some time off) to try 480i over COMPONENT to the IScan, that is now doing the de-interlacing and scaling, and then out over DVI to my projector from the IScan.

Picture is better, smoother, more film-like. Even the blacks are better. The IScan is doing an awesome job with that 480i signal, even if it's an analog signal. I always tought that 480p over HDMI to the IScan was the way to go, but 480i over component is superior.

And I will stay like that until DVDO will release the patch to pass 480i over HDMI. I use the "professionnal' setting loaded in memory1, Auto2, and 7.5IRE. I was using 0IRE with HDMI direct, but at 480i, 0IRE is unwatchable... like others using 480i in this thread, 7.5IRE is the way to go for me.

ON a similar note, I'm using the 59avi with the Lumagen Vision HDP with HDMI over 480i (they just released the update to support this last week) and it looks stellar, i couldnt be happier with it.

I noticed an improvement when switching from component 480i going to HDMI, overall a cleaner and punchier image.

I know the guys over at Lumagen are getting a 59avi in house to continue to tweak their performance of the unit so future improvements of 480i over HDMI would be 'optimized' for the 59avi. :)

Theres a lot of settings on the lumagen but if i set the pedestal to video levels in and out on the Lumagen i cant pass BTB at 0 IRE. 7.5 IRE works great though.

Theres a few more significant updates coming for the Lumagen as well, 1080i inverse telecine and a true 10bit data path(currently only 8 bit).


The Lumagen isnt as pretty a box but man can in deinterlace/scale! :)

The performance is probably very similar between the two since they both use the SI 504, i just needed the 2 DVI inputs and full transcoding that the lumagen offered. I think street price may be a few hundred more for the lumagen so if you dont need those things the Iscan is probably a great choice.

John

Originally posted by Expletive
ON a similar note, I'm using the 59avi with the Lumagen Vision HDP with HDMI over 480i (they just released the update to support this last week) and it looks stellar, i couldnt be happier with it.

I noticed an improvement when switching from component 480i going to HDMI, overall a cleaner and punchier image.

I know the guys over at Lumagen are getting a 59avi in house to continue to tweak their performance of the unit so future improvements of 480i over HDMI would be 'optimized' for the 59avi. :)

Theres a lot of settings on the lumagen but if i set the pedestal to video levels in and out on the Lumagen i cant pass BTB at 0 IRE. 7.5 IRE works great though.

Theres a few more significant updates coming for the Lumagen as well, 1080i inverse telecine and a true 10bit data path(currently only 8 bit).


The Lumagen isnt as pretty a box but man can in deinterlace/scale! :)

The performance is probably very similar between the two since they both use the SI 504, i just needed the 2 DVI inputs and full transcoding that the lumagen offered. I think street price may be a few hundred more for the lumagen so if you dont need those things the Iscan is probably a great choice.

John

Will the basic unit 'Vision DVI' also support HDMI 480i? I may need to jump ships since I doubt DVDO will get their firmware in gear anytime soon. From what I gather in the vid processor threads the firmware update is further down their list of priorities.

Originally posted by mimason
Will the basic unit 'Vision DVI' also support HDMI 480i? I may need to jump ships since I doubt DVDO will get their firmware in gear anytime soon. From what I gather in the vid processor threads the firmware update is further down their list of priorities.

Yes it does and that one is only $999 as opposed to $1499 for the HDP. What its missing is that due to a less powerful FPGA it can only scale to 800p, so if you get a 1080p display down the reaod youll only be able to feed it 800p.

The only other specific item they mention on the website between the 2 is that the HDP and Pro HDP have 'improved video quality over the DVI' not sure what that means but you can call LUmagen and theyll be happy to explain it all to you.

Ive also heard that some features being considered down the road may not be able to fit on the DVI as well.

John

Originally posted by LEVESQUE

Picture is better, smoother, more film-like. Even the blacks are better. The IScan is doing an awesome job with that 480i signal, even if it's an analog signal. I always tought that 480p over HDMI to the IScan was the way to go, but 480i over component is superior.



Hi,
I am wondering what you mean by "more film-like"? Before I acquired the 59AVi, for a short time I had the Denon 2900. Not having A/Bed both players, my impressions are based on memory but it seems that the 2900 had an excellent and pleasing picture quality that was a bit softer than the 59AVi. Sometimes I wonder about HDMI as there seems to be a slightly harder quality to it.

Expletive,
Note the post earlier in this thread that reported that HDMI 480i from the 59avi only passes Blacker than Black and Peak Whites if TWO changes are made to the "HDMI Direct" default settings. Blacks need to be changed from 0 IRE to 7.5 IRE and HDMI Color Adjust needs to be changed from Standard to Enhanced. Apparently this only applies to 480i. It's not clear whether or not it should also apply when using an HDMI to DVI 480i hack as with the Lumagen.

It would be good to get confirmation that this is really true. Both Peak Whites and Blacker than Black need to be checked.
--Bob

Bluesea,
Be sure to recheck your Sharpness settings for HDMI. The HDMI signal has a higher bandwidth likely due to less filtering at both ends. This is particularly evident in color charts. The result is that even LESS sharpness enhancement is needed.
--bob

Bob I replied on the other thread as well, how do i test for peak white? The 7.5 IRE setting was necessary to pass BTB. I have Avia and the THX optimizer to test...

John

John,
I use DVE to test for Peak Whites. DVE has gray ramps that indicate "reference white" with a small dot and peak whites are then above that point. Unfortunately I have a DVI display so I can't use a 480i signal to confirm this.
--Bob

For those interested in Firmware upgrades to the newest .506 - here is the response I got from Pioneer via email after 1 month......

12/28/2004 12:46 AM
To poccs@pioneer-usa.com
cc

Subject Elite 59AVi Firmware

I have just purchased from my local Pioneer Dealer a Pioneer Elite 59AVi DVD player with a manufacture date of November 2003 - unit serial number XXXXXXXXX. The firmware via the remote/display is listed as Ver 1.306 (16) AV1: 2.0/2.8.

I understand that there are also versions 406 and 506 for this player.
How can I go about upgrading to the latest version available? Can this be done via a CD myself as I have done with my spare Panasonic RP82 unit? Does this have to be done by the Dealer or Authorized Repair Facility?

Can you give me any indication as to what has been upgraded or changed with the newer firmware versions?

Regards,
xxxxxxx


Subject: Re: Elite 59AVi Firmware
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:43:06 -0500
From: poccs@pioneer-usa.com
To: xxxxxx <xxxx@xxxx.com>
CC: poccs@pioneer-usa.com

The firmware upgrades are only performed at the Pioneer Factory Service Centre (address below). Please ship the unit via courier to our address along with a copy of the bill of sale and a written request for firmware upgrade.

F N

Pioneer Electronics of Canada
300 Allstate Parkway
Markham Ontario L3R 0P2
Toll free: 1 (877) 283 5901
Fax: 1 (877) 746 4848


Not a lot of info - looks like it's a trip cross country for the 59. :(

Paul,
Sigh.... I wish Pioneer would do themselves a favor and be more forthcoming here.

Since you have a 306 firmware player, have you found any problems in it yet that MIGHT be fixed by upgrade? For example, have you checked with Avia to see if you have the Y/C Delay problem that was reported in the early reviews.
--Bob

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
John,
I use DVE to test for Peak Whites. DVE has gray ramps that indicate "reference white" with a small dot and peak whites are then above that point. Unfortunately I have a DVI display so I can't use a 480i signal to confirm this.
--Bob

Bob, while i dont have DVE to test officially heres what ive seen.

Before using 480i over HDMI i had been using 720p and the 'passthrough' feature on my lumagen to the Optoma H77 (not sure why really, i treid it once it looked ok and i didnt feel like doing a bunch of comparisons since 480i release was immminent) . The brightness and contrast settings were -11 for brightness and 26 for contrast (if memory serves, i could be wrong but it was close to that if not exactly that). Once i switched to HDMI 480i, to get it calibrated properly i had to set brightness to -20 and contrast to 48 (the range is -50 to +50). This seemed somewhat odd to me that there was such a discrepancy between the two resolutions.

Once i set the the HDMI color to 'enhanced' (jsut now) i recalibrated and my settings are now -12 and +24 for BRT and CON respectively. So it seems to me that by setting it to enhanced there is a significant impact to calibration and its much more in line with what i had before.

So from my persepctive yes you do need both 7.5 IRE and enhanced color level on HDMI.

John

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Paul,
Sigh.... I wish Pioneer would do themselves a favor and be more forthcoming here.

Since you have a 306 firmware player, have you found any problems in it yet that MIGHT be fixed by upgrade? For example, have you checked with Avia to see if you have the Y/C Delay problem that was reported in the early reviews.
--Bob

Bob - I got the player for XMas then left for work, so didn't run a full re-cal with Avia, but I did check the Y/C delay (S-Video out at the moment) with Auto2 and all other settings Default and I seem to recall it was -.20 or some such, so, unless I need to tweak the TV again (as Kevin Brown did I believe in another post), then recheck the Y/C, it would seem that .306 has the problem. I can report more about this in another couple of weeks.

I don't know what the #%&^ secret is here. Same thing with their double coding for their remote codes and changing the codeset every few years. On another note I think I've figured out how to get the 59's discrete on/off codes for my MX500 via the JP1 route and some software I found, so I'll make the .m5 files available on remotecentral and post the link here if it all works out.

I can only imagine how this thread will take off if/when DVDO releases the iScan HD with the ability to accept 480i via HDMI.

It's good to have info start coming in re settings for the Lumagen, which should be similar to what we would need to do with the iScan.

I would be interested in hearing your comments regarding the benefits of the Lumagen vs the 59avi alone when you get the chance Expletive.

Originally posted by Rob Tomlin
I can only imagine how this thread will take off if/when DVDO releases the iScan HD with the ability to accept 480i via HDMI.

It's good to have info start coming in re settings for the Lumagen, which should be similar to what we would need to do with the iScan.

I would be interested in hearing your comments regarding the benefits of the Lumagen vs the 59avi alone when you get the chance Expletive.

From a 'compulsory' standpoint the Lumagen should garner a perfect score on the Secret's tests while the Pioneer on its own will not.

I know the last time Kris tested the Lumagen, theres was one problem with PAL material but i'm pretty sure thats fixed now.

I dont know how important this is to anyone but seeing it usually comes up in regard to DVD player performance i figured it was worth mentioning.

I'll try to get some subjective stuff done at some point but right now i am in DIY acoustic panel hell which will tie me up through the big game a week from Sunday. :)

Everthing looks really superb now, without an A/B comparison i cant quite put my finger on it but the image looks more - here it comes - filmlike! (when compared to the Pioneer going 720 out of its HDMI)

Of course the placebo affect is alive and well in all of us. :)

John

Well guys I got this player in the mail today.

The 59avi just replaced a Panasonic RP-62. I was skeptical that there would be such drastic differences between the two, but after hooking up the 59avi and tweaking with Avia (and boy did it need to be tweaked, I was going to cry when I first hooked it up and saw a washed out looking mess), I can hardly keep my jaw off the floor.

Now the video is of course a drastic improvement, Lord Of The Rings looks 3-d now if that makes any sense...but the audio...its like night and day. My surrounds are actually participating now, and where I used to have the volume set to 60 I now have to set it at 40 or risk 'breaking my lease early'.

Anyways, not trying to interject into the current subtopic just wanted to voice how excited I am about this great machine, and to urge people to calibrate it first before making any judgements because if I had just hooked it up without changing settings I would have been quite upset.

My setup if you're curious:

59avi---component----mitsubishi 48"HD/rptv


59avi---optical cable---onkyo 601---bose cubes (yah I know, but when I get a house I plan on having in-walls)---Hsu 8" subwoofer

Originally posted by Expletive
From a 'compulsory' standpoint the Lumagen should garner a perfect score on the Secret's tests while the Pioneer on its own will not.

I know the last time Kris tested the Lumagen, theres was one problem with PAL material but i'm pretty sure thats fixed now.

I dont know how important this is to anyone but seeing it usually comes up in regard to DVD player performance i figured it was worth mentioning

John

I consider your feedback and info on scalers to be invaluble, as I can definitely see myself upgrading to an external scaler/deinterlacer in a few months. I just don't see the new HD formats becoming a big player anytime soon so it will be worth it to go for the best SD PQ.

Congrats moribund, its good to see more 59er's joining in.

I am curious here....am I the only one, or are there others that do all of their projector source (DVD) calibrations via the projector's adjustments and then store each source to the projector's memory. Essentially leaving the DVD player settings at their default.

BTW- -when HDMI 'direct' is chosen, is there a way to make adjustments to the video (e.g. contrast, brightness, IR, etc.).

Thanks Bob Pariseau for the very informative reply concerning the 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE settings as well as the useful link. Its great that you are taking the time to help a newbie like me and I am learning a great deal from this thread. Just to show you how new I actually am at this when I ordered my DVE disc the guy told me that there were 2 versions available. One was called Digital Video Essentials and the other was Digital Video Essentials - PAL version. I just want to make sure that I actually did order the right one. If I'm not mistaken I want the one that is NOT the PAL version because I live in Canada and the PAL version would only be for the U.K., Europe, Australia, and China. This is correct is it not?

Originally posted by thebland
I am curious here....am I the only one, or are there others that do all of their projector source (DVD) calibrations via the projector's adjustments and then store each source to the projector's memory. Essentially leaving the DVD player settings at their default.

BTW- -when HDMI 'direct' is chosen, is there a way to make adjustments to the video (e.g. contrast, brightness, IR, etc.).


Same here, all adjustments done through the display.

I believe you have to load Direct into Memory 1 to access the adjustments. With Mem 1 selected there will appear another menu option directly below. In that new menu will be the players various video settings.

There is an interesting adjustment there called HDMI Detail. Has anyone played with it or know what its function is?

The majority of calibration adjustments (color, contrast, brightness etc) should definitely be done with the displays controls, not the DVD players. Setting the player to 0 IRE vs. 7.5 IRE is a different issue, as are settings such as "16:9 compressed" and "Auto2" etc.

Originally posted by Bluesea
I consider your feedback and info on scalers to be invaluble, as I can definitely see myself upgrading to an external scaler/deinterlacer in a few months. I just don't see the new HD formats becoming a big player anytime soon so it will be worth it to go for the best SD PQ.

Congrats moribund, its good to see more 59er's joining in.

I completely concur with this sentiment. Even if the Blu Ray or HD-DVD players are released in a year (which I think is unlikely myself), it will be a while after that before they have a universal player or the format war is decided, not to mention a scarcity of titles (this may or may not be a issue). But even if these formats take off like crazy out of the gate, I will still have my collection of 400 DVD's that will NOT be replaced by the new HD format (other than a few of my top favorites) which means we will still need a top grade solution for our standard definition DVD's.

Whether or not the Lumagen or iScan provides enough of a picture quality improvement over the 59avi alone to justify the extra cost remains to be seen, which is why comments/opinions from people who have gone this route, such as John (Expletive), are so important.

thebland,
You can't alter the factory default values for any of the named sets of settings, for example HDMI Direct mode. But you CAN load those values into a Memory and THEN alter the settings in the MEMORY.

Select a Memory as your choice for video settings, for example Memory 1. This will exit the Video Adjust menu. Go back into Video Adjust and you will see Memory 1 as the current choice of settings, and under that an item for making adjustments. Select that item and you will be switched to the current set of values in Memory 1. At the top of that list is an item for loading a bunch of settings in at once. Use that item and choose "Direct" as the source and you will have loaded the factory default values for HDMI Direct mode into Memory 1 where you can see them and alter them as you feel necessary. You can always reload Direct back into Memory 1 to restore any settings you might have altered in Memory 1 since nothing you do will ever change the original values in Direct mode itself.

You are correct that for the most part you should strive to leave those settings in their default values and make all adjustments on your projector or display instead. Pure Cinema mode is the only one you are likely to find any need to change on a movie by movie basis for example.

If you do want to experiment with making changes to the 59avi settings, here's another trick. Scroll to the setting you want to change and then hit Display on the remote control. This will toggle you to a one line display of that particular setting only, so that you can see more of the movie while making changes so as to get instant feedback as to what the change is doing.

Up and down arrow will change which setting is shown in the one line display, and hitting Display again will toggle you back to the complete list.
--Bob

Lee,
Yes, Canada uses the NTSC form of video the same as is used in the USA. So you want the version of DVE that's NOT for PAL.

DVE also comes in a high definition digital tape version for folks with digital tape players. Obviously you don't want that one either since it won't work on your DVD player.
--Bob

Bluesea,
I'm pretty sure that HDMI Detail is a form of vertical edge enhancement. I haven't found any reason to want to change it from the default provided with HDMI Direct mode. Since HDMI seems to provide a higher bandwidth signal, this may be vertical edge enhancement in a different frequency band than those that are tackled by the Sharpness controls.
--Bob

Originally posted by thebland
I am curious here....am I the only one, or are there others that do all of their projector source (DVD) calibrations via the projector's adjustments and then store each source to the projector's memory. Essentially leaving the DVD player settings at their default.

BTW- -when HDMI 'direct' is chosen, is there a way to make adjustments to the video (e.g. contrast, brightness, IR, etc.).

All i change on the pioneer is the purecinema setting, the IRE setting , and the HDMI color level setting. I dont have memories in my projector but i do have them in the Lumagen (which actually has memories within memories so you can have different memories per input - i.e. a 'sports' mode for HDTV and a 'movie' mode)so I calibrate my projector to DVD, and then tweak all the other inputs accordingly. I do this only becuase it is suggested in the lumagen manual, not sure what benefit it has.

John

Just picked up a 59avi yesterday and have a couple of questions.

I cant seem to get the video to work on my dvd-audio discs ? ( video works for everything else ) but when I put in a dvd-audio disc the display on the 59avi says menu ..but it seems no matter what button I push I still dont get any video ..

Secondly, I assume there isnt a little light that lights up when you have a sacd disc in ( to verify that you are indeed playing the sacd portion of the disc ) ..and the same for dvd-audio ..So my question is, how can you be sure that your playing the sacd portion of say an sacd hybrid disc ? ( that also has a redbook version on it to ) ....same question on dvd-audio ..

Thirdly, I guess there isnt a way to flip from 5.1 audio to 2 channel stereo on the fly from the remote ? ..You have to go into the settings menu every time you wanna change this ? ..

When settings are on 5.1 audio in main menu , will this downmix the audio track and send a stereo signal out the seperate analog l/r stereo outs of the 59avi ( Im not talking about the l/r outs of the 5.1 outs)

thebland.

My D-ILA was calibrated by Phelps, and strangely, everything is at "0" even in my projector menu, when I send 480p to the IScan over HDMI. So I use HDMI direct, I change Auto1 to Auto2, 0IRE, and that's all.

I don't know what Phelps was using to calibrate my D-ILA, but after using AVIA and DVE, everything is perfect with "0" everywhere in my projector menu.

The 59avi is the 1st player I have tried (and I did try ALOT of players!) behaving like that.

The D-ILA remembers the different settings for all my dfferent inputs.

Originally posted by psujohny
Just picked up a 59avi yesterday and have a couple of questions.



psujohny,

What happened to the Sony 999ES? How does the audio of the 59 compare to the Sony?

psujohny,
What happened to the Sony 999ES? How does the audio of the 59 compare to the Sony?

I saw an excellant deal for a slightly used 59avi for 650.00 and I just couldnt pass it up., After selling the 999es There was only around a 200.00 difference between the two.

I havent had it long enough to comment on the audio or picture. Im just in the process of getting the initial settings correct.

It isnt quite as heavy as the 999es and I can already say that I like the interface/navigation on the 999es a little better. From my brief first listening session, initial thoughts (and this may change) is that it's audio capabilities may not be quite up to the level of the 999es..I really need to spend some time with it first however..(but sometimes your very first initial impressions are correct)

psujohny,
As regards playing video from a DVD-Audio disc, check out DVD Playback Mode on page 73 of the instruction manual and see if this does it for you. Also note that this resets to Audio playback whenever you change discs.

I believe there may also be a restriction in seeing menus over an HDMI video connection if the DVD-Audio disc is copy protected, but I'm not sure of that.

------------------------------------------------

I don't know of any indicator to show the system has recogized an SACD disc, nor any button to switch between 5.1 and 2 channel playback for DVD-Audio or SACD -- although you might find the Audio button on the remote is enabled for that on some discs.

-----------------------------------------------

When set to 5.1 output, the stereo output jacks yield the same signal as the Front L/R jacks of the 5.1 output. I.e., there is no downmixing for them. See the note on page 76 of the instruction manual.
--Bob

Originally posted by psujohny
I saw an excellant deal for a slightly used 59avi for 650.00 and I just couldnt pass it up., After selling the 999es There was only around a 200.00 difference between the two.

I havent had it long enough to comment on the audio or picture. Im just in the process of getting the initial settings correct.

It isnt quite as heavy as the 999es and I can already say that I like the interface/navigation on the 999es a little better. From my brief first listening session, initial thoughts (and this may change) is that it's audio capabilities may not be quite up to the level of the 999es..I really need to spend some time with it first however..(but sometimes your very first initial impressions are correct)

I think most people will be interested to hear about your stint with the 3910 compared to the 59avi. Audio and video.

Man you really do cycle throught these player. I am taking bets at 3:1 odds on how long you keep the 59avi;)

Does an ISF calibration include all of these tweaks or adjustments to the DVD player as well as the TV? I'm wondering if I have to adjust my DVD player before the ISF calibration. I really don't want to go in there if it would be done in a couple of weeks anyway.

I see a great picture with my 59AVi but I'm far from a critical viewer, so my opinion does'nt say much.

Is it possible to switch between 5.1 SACD/2 channel SACD/CD playback without changing the default setting?


Thanks.

cissado,
It depends on the knowledge of the particular ISF tech you hire and what you are willing to pay for. The tech can calibrate the inputs on your display using his own signal generators, or he can do it through your source devices -- such as by putting calibration discs into your DVD player or by sending generated HDTV signals into your HDTV receiver -- or he can do both. Not all ISF techs are equally familiar with all displays and source devices, so when choosing a professional calibrator, have a discussion, find out what he has the experience and equipment to do, and find out what the various options will cost you.
--Bob

kk02,
I dug around in the manual a bit on this, and was unable to find anything hopeful as regards one button switching between 5.1 and 2-channel audio modes.

There IS a statement that the Audio button on the remote may be enabled to do something useful here depending upon the construction of each individual DVD-Audio disc, but I don't really have high hopes this will do it for you. There's no similar statement for SACD discs however.
--Bob

Bob,

I was able to switch between stereo/5.1 on a DVD-A. No such luck on a SACD....

Thanks,

Thank you Bob. The ISF tech was highly regarded on here and I was lucky enough to live minutes from his location, so I got an appointment 1.5 months in advance, that was his earliest opening. Wow! lol Anyway, I need that to have my TV run for a little while before gettin it calibrated anyway.

I did make the appointment and he'll discuss the details with me at the time of service. Thanks again, I have confidence it will be a good experience as I see the AVIA disk alone makes a difference, so I expect this to be good as well. Thanks again Bob.

Very much like to become owner of the 59avi. Can someone PM me on an authorized dealer with good price? Also, should I get from a reputable non-authorized dealer and add an extended warranty? Thanks a lot.

Originally posted by almond
Very much like to become owner of the 59avi. Can someone PM me on an authorized dealer with good price? Also, should I get from a reputable non-authorized dealer and add an extended warranty? Thanks a lot.
Please do not order the 59AVi from non-authorized dealer even with the extended warranty, because Pioneer will not honor the warranty, and some of the extended warranty companies are a joke.

Originally posted by thebland
I have mine set to 'direct' on the 59 AVi - using HDMI output. IN that mode, there are few user adjustments (no auto 1, 2, etc.). Since the signal is sent 'unmodified' to the projector's HDMI input, all of the picture adjustments are made via the projector only.

Is there a reason, you guys prefer to tweak the DVD player AND projector?


Originally posted by thebland
I am curious here....am I the only one, or are there others that do all of their projector source (DVD) calibrations via the projector's adjustments and then store each source to the projector's memory. Essentially leaving the DVD player settings at their default.




I guess having a new baby will make you forget questions you've previously asked in the same thread.



Stew

Stew,
You wouldn't have to ask this if you had any concept of just how much sleep you can lose trying to calibrate a new baby....
--Bob

I think most people will be interested to hear about your stint with the 3910 compared to the 59avi. Audio and video

The problem on the audio side is that I just bought new amplifiers ( two Cinenova Grands ).. and I was running the Denon 3910 and Sony 999es on my old amp's, so my observations could be skewed by this. I hate changing two pieces of gear at one time as you dont really know what attributes each has independently.

I did some two channel listening last night on the 59avi and was really concerned, as it sounded like total crap on sacd/dvd-audio ..I was freakin out about how bad it sounded ..Well, if anybody out there is listening in stereo mode, Please make sure and switch all the 59avi's initial setting to 2 channel when listening in stereol ! , even if you have 5.1 hooked up ..Because in stereo mode you do indeed only get the L/R out of a 5.1 mix. ..Anyway, much better now ..still have to put some more listening time under my belt before commenting.
I guess Ill just have to go into setup each time I wanna switch from two channel to 5.1.

Calibrated with avia/dve last night and everything passes ( btb wtw, no crushing, colors are correct, no y/c delay ) ..

I saved everything in memory one, and have it set to auto 2, 0 ire, normal and everything else at its default.

Would it be better to use the " direct mode" ? instead of memory one ..and if so, can you make the above settings in the direct mode ? ..When I set it to "direct" I cant seem to find out where to make these settings changes.

psujohny,
You can't make any changes to the named sets of settings such as "HDMI Direct", but you CAN load the Direct settings into a Memory to see them and change them there if you want to. Use the first item in the list of setttings of, say, Memory 1, and specify "Direct" as the source for loading settings. Any changes you make will only affect that Memory, and not the default settings of Direct mode itself.

If you load in the Direct settings and compare to what you are currently using, I suspect you will find that using AUTO2 is the only difference.
--Bob

psujohny,
[These questions are for any other new readers as well!]

For the record, what's the firmware info from your new 59avi? To see this, go to Initial Settings, click on Options, and then hit Display on the remote. That will bring up the firmware numbers in the lower portion of the screen on your TV. Number strings with 306, 406, and 506 have been reported but we've yet to figure out what any of these actually fixed.

Also, are you connected HDMI to HDMI or HDMI to DVI? If HDMI to HDMI there are two items awaiting confirmation. We believe that with the 406 firmware, and apparently fixed in the 506 firmware, the front panel display will show "DVI" incorrectly instead of "HDMI" when briefly showing the resolution established on the digital connection.

We also believe that to use HDMI to HDMI at 480i (and ONLY for that resolution) you need to alter the HDMI Direct set of settings to Blacks of 7.5 IRE and to HDMI Color Adjust of Enhanced to get BOTH BTB and WTW data to pass correctly. We've had two reports that this is necessary for BTB, but only one of those posters was able to check WTW.
--Bob

Originally posted by psujohny
The problem on the audio side is that I just bought new amplifiers ( two Cinenova Grands ).. and I was running the Denon 3910 and Sony 999es on my old amp's, so my observations could be skewed by this. I hate changing two pieces of gear at one time as you dont really know what attributes each has independently.

I did some two channel listening last night on the 59avi and was really concerned, as it sounded like total crap on sacd/dvd-audio ..I was freakin out about how bad it sounded ..Well, if anybody out there is listening in stereo mode, Please make sure and switch all the 59avi's initial setting to 2 channel when listening in stereol ! , even if you have 5.1 hooked up ..Because in stereo mode you do indeed only get the L/R out of a 5.1 mix. ..Anyway, much better now ..still have to put some more listening time under my belt before commenting.
I guess Ill just have to go into setup each time I wanna switch from two channel to 5.1.

Calibrated with avia/dve last night and everything passes ( btb wtw, no crushing, colors are correct, no y/c delay ) ..

I saved everything in memory one, and have it set to auto 2, 0 ire, normal and everything else at its default.

Would it be better to use the " direct mode" ? instead of memory one ..and if so, can you make the above settings in the direct mode ? ..When I set it to "direct" I cant seem to find out where to make these settings changes.

Sounds like you have a very good wife that accepts the hobby. I pushed too hard in 2004. 6 dvd players, new speakers, Iscan HD,oodles of cables........and am hearing it now. Will wait a couple months to start on the new display.

The 5.1 vs 2 channel setup was one really cool feature about the 3910 that I miss that the 59avi lacks. It's not a big problem to work around though.

I'm a little confused re this 5.1 vs two channel issue??

What 2 channel source are you talking about? Hi Rez formats, or CD? I am guessing it is the latter.

What change needs to be made when listening to two channel in the Elites menu?

Almost all of my listening on the Elite has been with hi rez formats so far, so I havent noticed a problem with CD (obviously).

Rob,
With DVD-Audio and SACD you usually have your choice of whether to listen to a 5.1 track or a 2 channel track, both at high bandwidth. SACD sometimes offers a third choice to listen to a CD quality 2 channel track.
--Bob

And with these options, you must go into the menu and change something on the Elites settings if you choose the 2 channel track?

Rob,
Im talking about sacd and dvd-audio ..you should set 59avi's setting's to two channel if listening in stereo..I wonder how many people out there are listening to two channel with a 5.1 setting and dont even know it ...It loses center imaging for starters because the 5.1 mix is using a center, and who knows what other information is missing..Im not sure if this also would apply to redbook cd's or not.

Bob,
Im using hdmi to dvi ..I will check the firmware version anyway. I bet its the oldest firmware because its a Nov. 2003 build date on back. My worries/questions were that I thougt I would have a Y/C delay issue with the older firmware, but I checked the Y/C delay in Avia and unless Im looking at it wrong, I dont have any Y/C delay at all ( The zero setting has perfectly matched lines on the Y/C test ) Is there something Im missing here ?

Mimason,
I have conformed my habits to mesh with my wifes, and have made many consessions ...The one area where I have mantained control is big ticket purchases ..and also when we moved I told here she could do whatever she wanted with the whole entire house ..except for one room, which would be totally mine to do with what I wanted. Not even exagerating Ive owned over 40 amps now in the last 5 years, countless recievers/pre-pro's, dvd-players etc...and even several speaker and sub changes ..But I told her " I swear honey, Im just one piece away from being done " and she say's " Yea, I know thats bullsh*t" :)

And with these options, you must go into the menu and change something on the Elites settings if you choose the 2 channel track?

Actually I was playing sacd disc's that dont have the option on the disc to switch from 5.1 to 2 channel ( sacd must be done at the player unlike dvd-audio ) ...As far as dvd-audio, Im not sure if changing it on the disc itself will suffice .. I will go home tonight and change the settings back to 5.1 on the player itself and then choose two channel on the dvd-audio disc to see if the same applies to dvd-audio as it does with sacd.

psujohny,
OK, so the HDMI to HDMI tests are out. We need to get some more 59avi owners with HDMI displays! (grin!)

If it turns out you do have the 306 firmware and no Y/C Delay that would be a good data point as well. It's quite possible the Y/C Delay fix was simply a matter of better quality control during manufacture as opposed to a firmware fix anyway. In fact if you have the 306 firmware, it would be great if you could hook up Component connections long enough to double check Y/C delay on Component 480p as well since that's where Secrets actually noticed it. Use "Professional" mode on the 59avi -- which is the factory default set of settings for Component connections.

When checking the Y/C Delay chart in Avia, find the pattern in each column where the LEFT hand edges of the two strips match up most closely -- i.e, the edges furthest from the center of the screen. The pattern labeled "0" in the middle of each column represents perfection.

No real effort to get things calibrated should be necessary before checking this, but if you DO notice a problem, it would be best to double check the rest of the Component input calibration on your TV to make sure there's not some setting on the TV that's causing this (Y/C Delay problems can arise either in the source device OR in the display).
--Bob

When checking the Y/C Delay chart in Avia, find the pattern in each column where the LEFT hand edges of the two strips match up most closely -- i.e, the edges furthest from the center of the screen. The pattern labeled "0" in the middle of each column represents perfection.

Yea, this is the pattern I was trying to descibe, I did indeed check this and I have no y/c delay through hdmi to dvi ...When I get time I will check to see if this also applies to the component output ( dont currently have components hooked up)

Good info re the 5.1 vs two channel for SACD psujohny. I don't have any 2 channel SACD's yet, so I haven't noticed a problem.

Let us know what you find with regard to DVD-Audio.

I don't have any 2 channel SACD's yet, so I haven't noticed a problem.

Keep in mind that most sacd discs have a two-channel track and a 5.1 track ..but in sacd's case...the player itself must be set to either two-channel or 5.1 ( unlike dvd-audio,where you can choose on the disc on screen which track you wanna use) ...Pop in one of your sacds that have both multi-channel and a stereo track and then listen to it in stereo with the 59avi's setting set to 5.1 and then switch the setting to two channel in the 59avi and see if you notice a major improvement.

I used the HDMI->DVI connection to a Infocus 7205 and just got "noise". I had to switch the 59AVi's HDMI Resoulation setting to 720x480P ( before getting a picture. Is this normal or am I doing something wrong?

I used the HDMI->DVI connection to a Infocus 7205 and just got "noise". I had to switch the 59AVi's HDMI Resoulation setting to 720x480P ( before getting a picture. Is this normal or am I doing something wrong

I dont think so ..Im using hdmi to dvi on a panasonic ae500 and have the 59avi set to 1980 ? X 1080

kk02,
It should just be a matter of selecting the 59avi output resolution in the Initial Setttings / Options / HDMI menu, as well as making sure you have a good cable connection.

Is it possible that your cable is too long? Establishing a digital connection over a long cable is harder to do at the higher resolutions.
--Bob

Bob,

I have a DVI cable running from the rack to the projector mounted on the ceiling. I am guessing 15'. I am using a DVI/HDMI connector to connect the DVI cable to the HDMI input of the 59AVi.

I will play with it some more to ensure all connections are good....

kk02,
A 15 foot cable should be no problem, unless of course the cable is faulty.

Other tests are to hook the 59avi to another TV (perhaps in a store) to make sure its HDMI output is functioning normally and that you really are making the resolution selection properly, and to bring the 59avi close to the projector to try using a short cable (6 feet or less). I know this is a nuisance since the projector needs a DVI to M1 cable, but again perhaps you could do that at the store where you got the projector.

I took a look at the online users manual for the projector and couldn't spot any settings on the projector that should affect this.

I presume you were trying to use 720p or 1080i, right? Because of course digital 480i isn't supported by a DVI device such as your projector. HDMI 480i output is only intended for HDMI display devices.

Also, I presume the blue HDMI light on the 59avi is coming on and the front panel briefly shows DVI 480p when the connection works and that the light is NOT coming on, and there's no front panel message, when you try a resolution that produces snow.

Finally be aware that the combined length and weight of an HDMI to DVI adapter and the DVI plug and cable attached to it, put a good deal of strain on the small HDMI plug in the socket. It is not at all uncommon for the plug to work loose partially so that the connection is not solid even though the plug looks to be fully inserted. The usual symptom here would be no signal at any resolution, but perhaps you've got just a marginal connection.

Try holding the HDMI plug into the 59avi socket by hand and see if that gets you a connection. It may take 10 seconds or so for the connection to establish so be patient. If that fixes the problem then you need a support under your HDMI/DVI adapter -- I use a folded paper towel -- or you need to use a cable tie of some sort to tie the DVI cable to another nearby cable at the 59avi end so as to take the strain off the plug.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDITED TO ADD: I also have seen reports that the Infocus players require a "special" M1 to DVI cable, so if you are using a cable you got from some other manufacturer, that might possibly be the problem. I've no idea whether or not such reports are correct.
--Bob

Well I do indeed have the oldest firmware version ( 3.06 ) and I dont have any y/c delay issues via hdmi to dvi ..still havent checked to see if component output has a y/c problem yet however.

In the video menu on the 59AVi, I can't get it to go out of 4:3...something TV. I'm trying to get into widescreen but it says "not allowed" or similar when I do try to enter that.

This may be normal as I'm not too familiar with the whole setup thing. Having said that, I am getting a wide picture on my 65H84 TV. So maybe it is right.

I'm connected directly to the TV with an HDMI/HDMI cable from the 59AVi.

Also, should I have it in Widescreen "compressed" mode or the other widescreen option?

cissado,
Welcome to the fascinating world of crappy user interface design!

The HDMI settings for the 59avi are one menu level deeper than you think they should be.

The settings in Initial Settings / Video Output only apply to your analog video output connections (e.g., Component). To make the same sorts of selections for your HDMI output you need to go to the special "HDMI" menu.

To get there, go to Initial Settings scroll down to Options and hit Enter. Scroll right into the list of Options settings and scroll down to the bottom of that list where you will find "HDMI". Hit Enter again and you will be taken to the settings menu for HDMI. The settings in this menu and in the Video Output menu are independent.

HDMI 16:9 Wide mode (the default for HDMI output) will pass 16:9 content unchanged and will stretch 4:3 content left and right to fill the 16:9 frame.

HDMI 16:9 Compressed mode will ALSO pass 16:9 content unchanged, but will pad 4:3 content with black pillar boxes left and right so as to preserve the original shape of the 4:3 content nestled in the middle. I recommend Compressed mode only if you are sending out a 720p or 1080i signal since otherwise the black pillar boxes consume too much resolution (particularly color resolution) from the 4:3 content. Personally, I prefer HDMI 16:9 Compressed mode.

With either choice, the detection of 16:9 or 4:3 content is automatic, even on a scene by scene basis as sometimes happens when watching "extra" content on a DVD.

If you use Avia for calibration, I suggest you leave the mode at HDMI 16:9 Wide until you are finished calibrating.

The other two choices are for use when connected to a 4:3 shaped TV.
--Bob

Thank you again, Bob. Great info throughout...

I have a problem with my new Pioneer 868AVi which is the European version of the 59

In RGB and Video on some kind of material where there are titles/writing on dark background there are VERY visible horizontal smearing/strips.

An example are the red titles of Blade or the subtitle in chapter 14 of Casablanca.

The Blade defects appear with RGB and Composite but not S-Video, while the Casablanca one appears with RGB and not with S-Video or Composite.

the connection is a high quality SCART to a Sony 32 Flat (CRT) TV.

The same DVD work flawlessy with my old Pioneer 525 in all RGB/SVideo and Composite mode....

After investigation (there is a complete thread on european www_avforums_com/forums/showthread.php?t=177516)
it looks like it is a general problem with the whole model.

Outcome from Pioneer NL (via the repair shop I sent the player to) is as follows:


I just received a phone call from the dutch repair shop where my Pioneer 868 has been sent for repair due to white banding problem with RGB output.

They were able to reproduce the problem with my (Blade, Casablanca) but also with many other DVD.

Pioneer NL sent in another new Pioneer 868 unit for comparison.

Result of the test is that both 868 units exibits the same problem with RGB out.

The shop then tested with Pioneer 656, 565 and 525.

Outcome is that the RGB output of the 868 and 656 is compromised while the one of the 565 and 525 is not.

I was told there is nothing to do a part from bringing it back to dealer for substitution with a different model since it affects all 868 and is not a batch problem.

I know that the US version does not have SCART video connector (and therefore no RGB out) but I am very interested to see if any of you has a technical assessment of this. Note it also happesn with Composite Video but not with S-Video.

You can see a sample here below and a lot more of talking between people having the problem in Europe on the thread mentioned above.

Furthermore I'm surprised that NO review in any magazine or web site (and I've checked many before spending 1000 EUR (1300$) on this) noticed the problem...

doctorG4,
Well that's certainly nasty! I've seen nothing like that with the 59avi, nor heard any such complaints from others.

If I understand what you are saying, this appears in some or all of the analog video outputs -- primarily Component RGB via the SCART connector. Is it correct that there's no problem on the digital (HDMI) output? How about Y/C analog video via the SCART? How about the regular (YPbPr) Component output?

Is the problem always with a PAL analog video output signal (i.e., has anyone had a chance to check whether the problem also appears with NTSC analog video output)?

Also, does the problem occur with interlaced output as well as progressive output?

Off-hand this looks like over-saturation of the PAL analog video signal, which really shouldn't be happening on an RGB Component output. You could try lowering the Color level using the video adjust menu of the 868avi to see if that helps.

Whatever the fault actually turns out to be, this is a fairly fundamental problem and I'd be shocked to discover that Pioneer released a unit with an imaging flaw this easy to reproduce. Also it makes no sense to me that this would not have been reported by reviewers of the 868avi.

I think it would be wise to double-check with Pioneer that this really is an unfixable flaw.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, I just read through the thread you referenced, and here are a few additional thoughts:

1) What you are seeing is *NOT* CUE or any other such artifact resulting from errors decoding the data off the DVD or de-interlacing the image. What you are seeing is a mismatch of signal levels between the player and the TV. This is exaggerated when bright, saturated colors show up in the image.

2) Apparently this occurs in some but not all of the analog signals generated by the PAL, analog, video output stage. HDMI (digital video) output is clean.

3) Your first thought when seeing such problems should be that there is a calibration (settings) error on either the player side or the TV side. Either the player's analog video output stage is being over-driven by the image it is trying to send or the signal it is sending is over-driving the video input of the TV.

Now I'm not familiar enough with the controls offered on the 868avi for adjusting the levels of the PAL analog video output signal to know if there's a setting change you should try, or if this is just a faulty design and it CAN'T be adjusted to levels that will work with your TV. In the NTSC versions, there is a menu item called Black Setup which sets the voltage level on the analog video cables that represents "black". Many TVs only have enough calibration range to work well with one of the two possible voltage settings, and the player has to be adjusted to match what the TV can tolerate.

So before giving up on this player, you might want to get a copy of the PAL version of Digital Video Essentials (DVE) and correspond with some people on your European forum who are familiar with calibrating players and TVs for analog PAL video signals.

Again, this may be a faulty design in the player, but it doesn't make sense to me that something this bad wouldn't have been reported by reviewers.

Note also that it is common, at least in the US, for TV manufacturers to ship their TVs set to default settings which are truly dreadful -- what are called the "torch" modes -- in order to produce overly bright/contrasty, overly red, and overly sharpness enhanced images which attract people in stores. If your TV is set that way, then it is quite possible that one DVD player might mute it's default signal expecting to be connected to a mis-adjusted TV whereas a "better" player might, by default, send out a "proper" signal which causes the mis-adjusted TV to look awful -- under the theory that folks buying the better player will take the time to adjust their TVs correctly. The point being, you really do need to calibrate the basic blacks/whites/colors/sharpness settings of your TV for your new DVD player before making any decisions about image quality.
--Bob

Another stupid question, I guess... How does one discern which speaker output levels are being used between the 59AVi or the AV receiver? My receiver was calibrated with all the 5.1 speakers and now the AVi asks to do this as well. Should I leave the AVi settings to zero as they are now or change them as well?

Also, the distance of each speaker is an optiona with the 59AVi, I DID set that up because it was easy, I did'nt break out the SPL meter though, for the other stuff. Is there a selection to use either one? (AV receiver or 59AVi?)

cissado,
Use the speaker level and distance adjustments in the 59avi if you are using the ANALOG 5.1 audio output jacks.

Use the speaker level and distance adjustments in your receiver if you are passing digital audio to your receiver.

If you are switching between the two types of connections -- digital for DVDs and analog for DVD-Audio for example -- set up both independently.
--Bob

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
cissado,
Use the speaker level and distance adjustments in the 59avi if you are using the ANALOG 5.1 audio output jacks.

Use the speaker level and distance adjustments in your receiver if you are passing digital audio to your receiver.

If you are switching between the two types of connections -- digital for DVDs and analog for DVD-Audio for example -- set up both independently.
--Bob


OK thanks. So after calibrating or adjusting, when I switch between the two audio settings on my receiver, does that input automatically go on? So if I'm listening with the ANALOG 5.1 audio output jacks, does it "automatically" use the AVi's audio and vice versa?

btw I have both the Analog 5.1 and the digital audio hooked up to the 59avi, in case that's important.

The settings in the 59avi are always active on its analog audio outputs and have no effect on its digital audio outputs (since the receiver does all the work on a digital audio input). The only thing you need to watch out for is that your receiver is not set to process it's analog audio inputs as well. Most receivers pass through the analog audio inputs. Some offer the option to adjuts them as well. Of course for the volume adjustments you can verify with a meter, but for the analog connection distance adjustments, if both devices want to get in on the act set one device to 0 distance and do all the adjustment in the other device.
--Bob

OK, I just connected my player up and I can't get to the HDMI menu. Funny thing is I can get the set up menu on DVI on my projector , but the HDMI light doesn't come on and I can't access any of the settings.

HDMI settings is in gray instead of black and it says operation can't be performed.

I'm using a 10m DVI cable to an HMDI adapter. I used the same set up with the Onkyo SP 1000 previously with no problems. Checked all connections. The cable and adapter also works fine on my SA 8300 set top HDTV box. with HDMI.

I'm wondering if I have a faulty player. Any thoughts?

epiney,
That's a combination that should not be possible. There should be no video over that cable if the blue HDMI light is not on. Are you sure you are not looking at video coming over a Component or S-video cable that's also hooked up?

Sounds like a faulty HDMI output on the player, but you should try the usual things. Make sure the HDMI plug is making good contact in the player by holding it into the socket by hand for 10 seconds or so. Try a shorter connection to insure that cable length is not the issue (30 feet of cable is iffy for a DVI input, but there are lots of folks using that length without problems from the 59avi). Try the HDMI output of the 59avi on another TV, perhaps at the store, to see if you can get it to function on another TV.

As far as what might have gone wrong here, presuming it's not just bad hardware, it's possible the 59avi got confused during it's new owner startup stuff about whether there was a proper digital connection. Try turning power off on the projector, wait about 10 seconds, and then power it on again. If that doesn't work, leave the projector on and try power off and on at the 59avi.

You could also hook up Component or S-video (unplug the HDMI from the 59avi), go through Setup Navigator to get the unit past its new owner startup stuff, and THEN plug the HDMI back in to see if that gets it past some sort of initial confusion.

Also, there should be no disc running when you try setting this stuff up. It's best if the tray is empty..

And make sure you haven't hit the Pure Audio button on the front panel by accident as that too will disable video output -- although again that doesn't explain why you say you have a menu showing on your DVI input.

The 59avi should default to 480p over it's HDMI output until you change things.
--Bob

Thanks Bob,

I've tried many of those things, but will try them all again. In some cases I unplugged all the component video outputs and I get the Pioneer menu when I power up over DVI!!!

Discs don't play at all on DVI/HDMI.

I've been fooling around with it for an hour and it's getting mighty frustrating.

Well I think I've got a bad HDMI output. The menu comes on over DVI and I can't access HDMI. If I put a disc in I can't see the picture, but I get sound.

Works fine on interlaced and progressive component.

epiney,
I presume you are not trying to connect via a DVI switch of some sort, right?
--Bob

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
epiney,
I presume you are not trying to connect via a DVI switch of some sort, right?
--Bob

Nope, direct cable only. Everything else works on the cable, even my very unstable HDTV cable box.

Well unless you have another HDMI or DVI TV handy at your place or a friends place, it's probably time to take this puppy back where you got it, and try it on a TV at the store. If that fails then swap it out for a working unit.

If, on the other hand, it works, then you've got me. I'm out of ideas.
--Bob

epiney,
I've got another question for you. When you get the menu onscreen via the DVI input, is it responsive AT ALL? That is does it change what's highlighted when you scroll around using the 59avi's remote control? Can you activate other settings even though the HDMI settings won't come up?

If what you are getting is a frozen image of the menu that's not responsive at all then the failure is likely a failure of the HDCP (copy protection) handshake. Some displays and projectors freeze frame the unencrypted video image that comes up for an instant just before the lack of HDCP shuts down the connection. Since you know your DVI input is HDCP compliant (per use with the Onkyo player) this would then be additional evidence that the HDMI output of this 59avi is kaput -- or alternatively that it doesn't quite have enough oomph to drive the signal over your 10 meter DVI cable.
--bob

I can activate and change everything else except the HDMI and Bonus options. Both of these are in gray instead of black. The menu in DVI is not as sharp as in component. The display is a bit fuzzy. I know for sure my PJ is HDCP compliant (Benq 8700). The new HDTV box works with it and as I said the Onkyo worked like a charm, except for the lip sync.

I can't get the HDMI meu on component as well.

epiney,
Well it certainly sounds like a bad HDMI output on the 59avi.
--bob

Bob,

thanks for the reply (and for taking the time to skim through the www_avforums_com/forums/showthread.php?t=177516 thread.


Well that's certainly nasty! I've seen nothing like that with the 59avi, nor heard any such complaints from others.

I assume this is because in US there is no SCART so RGB is not used, furthermore the target user for the 868/59 is the high end (due to cost) and these users would use Component or HDMI, so I assumed this was overlooked somehow.


If I understand what you are saying, this appears in some or all of the analog video outputs -- primarily Component RGB via the SCART connector. Is it correct that there's no problem on the digital (HDMI) output? How about Y/C analog video via the SCART? How about the regular (YPbPr) Component output?

As you say below, apparently only RGB and CVBS are affected, while S-Video (Y/C) and HDMI is OK. I do not have any info about Component (YPbPr) from anybody who has observed the problem with RGB and CVBS.

Is the problem always with a PAL analog video output signal (i.e., has anyone had a chance to check whether the problem also appears with NTSC analog video output)?


The problem appears also with NTSC (region 1) DVD like Star Wars I and II on a 868 which was made region free.


Also, does the problem occur with interlaced output as well as progressive output?


This I do not know. We have tried forcing the 868/59 to progressive (with the button on front), and changing the settings (Auto1, Auto2, PureCinema, etc) to no avail.


Off-hand this looks like over-saturation of the PAL analog video signal, which really shouldn't be happening on an RGB Component output. You could try lowering the Color level using the video adjust menu of the 868avi to see if that helps.


Yes. I was guessing a defect in the analog Video generation circuitry. The MPEG decoder is obviously not involved. I have not tried playing with DVD Player setting (as for me there should no way a DVD player should be able to generate an image which is obviously so wrong , someone else with the problem did it and was able to get rid of the stripes but the resulting contrast was very adversely affected (according to him: "In video adjust, increase white and black levels to the max, black setup to 7.5, gamma to maximum. Then descrease the brightness of your TV until you get a normal brightness. Then it is fixed but you loose all the contrast"). Furthermore there is the fact that the image is perfect on my older Pioneer 525 (with same TV) and with my Computer. BTW The manual for European 868 can be downloaded from any Pioneer euro site (I put an extract below so you can see which kind of control it has)..


Whatever the fault actually turns out to be, this is a fairly fundamental problem and I'd be shocked to discover that Pioneer released a unit with an imaging flaw this easy to reproduce. Also it makes no sense to me that this would not have been reported by reviewers of the 868avi.


Don't tell me ! I spent 1000EUR on the thing and I cannot watch a movie with subtitle on!


I think it would be wise to double-check with Pioneer that this really is an unfixable flaw.


I sent e-mail but no reply... Someone in UK sent same complaint to Pioneer UK and is told (see the euro-thread)
that problem is due to way that DVD has been prepared, which is preposterous IMHO.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1) What you are seeing is *NOT* CUE or any other such artifact resulting from errors decoding the data off the DVD or de-interlacing the image. What you are seeing is a mismatch of signal levels between the player and the TV. This is exaggerated when bright, saturated colors show up in the image.


Yes. Agree 100%


2) Apparently this occurs in some but not all of the analog signals generated by the PAL, analog, video output stage. HDMI (digital video) output is clean.


Yes. And also with NTSC.


3) Your first thought when seeing such problems should be that there is a calibration (settings) error on either the player side or the TV side. Either the player's analog video output stage is being over-driven by the image it is trying to send or the signal it is sending is over-driving the video input of the TV.


Yes, but as this happens with different TVs (at least with Sony and Phillips) and the TV are calibrated correctly (e.g. using THX Optimiser)
plus they never exhibit problem with other RGB and CVBS analog sources (VHS VCR, two different DVD players) one would assume the TV is behaving within specified signal tolerances.
What I do not know is specifically which "mistake" in the Analog output can cause brightening of image areas adjacent (horizontally) to bright titles/subtitles.
Since the black background turns into white (and not green, red or whatever) and since this also happens with BW movies(see Casablanca snapshot below) I would guess that all 3 color component signal level in RGB (and the luminance in CVBS) are increased somehow too much. What is strange is that S-Video is OK (which I would expect to be affected since luminance is used to build CVBS).
Could this be due to the fact that in a SCART working in RGB mode the synch is not on green but is taken by the TV from the CVBS signal (which normally stays there also when the output of the player is set to RGB) ??


Now I'm not familiar enough with the controls offered on the 868avi for adjusting the levels of the PAL analog video output signal to know if there's a setting change you should try, or if this is just a faulty design and it CAN'T be adjusted to levels that will work with your TV. In the NTSC versions, there is a menu item called Black Setup which sets the voltage level on the analog video cables that represents "black". Many TVs only have enough calibration range to work well with one of the two possible voltage settings, and the player has to be adjusted to match what the TV can tolerate.

The control on the 868 are:


You can adjust any or all of the following
picture quality settings:
•
Prog. Motion
– Adjusts the motion and
still picture quality when the player is set
to progressive video output. This has no
effect when set to On
•
PureCinema
– When watching DVD
movies, PureCinema optimizes the
picture quality. The default setting is
Auto1, but if the picture appears
unnatural, then set to
Auto2,On or Off as appropriate.
•
YNR
– Adjusts the amount of noise
reduction in the Y (brightness) part of the
video signal.
•
CNR
– Adjusts the amount of noise
reduction in the C (color) part of the video signal.
•
Sharpness High
– Adjusts the sharpness
of the high-frequency (detailed) elements
in the picture.
•
Sharpness Mid
– Adjusts the sharpness
of the mid-frequency (less detailed)
elements in the picture.
•
Detail
– Adjusts the sharpness of edges
in the picture.
•
White Level
– Adjusts the intensity of white.
•
Black Level
– Adjusts the intensity of black.
•
Black Setup
– Setup to correct the floating black color for better 3-dimensional realism.
•
Gamma
– Adjusts the brightness of darker images.
•
Hue
– Adjusts the overall color balance between red and green.
•
Chroma Level
– Adjusts how saturated colors appear.
•
Chroma Delay
– Adjust to correct the gap
between the Y and C components in the
video signal.
(This setting only affects
progressive video output.)
When the HDMI output is connected, the
following options also appear:
•
HDMI Color Adjust
– Adjusts the overall
color intensity in the HDMI video signal
(select between Standard and Enhanced).
•
HDMI Detail
– Adjusts the sharpness of
edges in the HDMI video signal.
4 Press ENTER to save the preset and
exit the Video Adjust screen.



So before giving up on this player, you might want to get a copy of the PAL version of Digital Video Essentials (DVE) and correspond with some people on your European forum who are familiar with calibrating players and TVs for analog PAL video signals.


I will order one straight away....:-(


Again, this may be a faulty design in the player, but it doesn't make sense to me that something this bad wouldn't have been reported by reviewers.


This is really puzzling (@£$%&!!! euphemism!) me. All the review in Europe and US sings high praise for the player including analog out,
I wonder how much time reviewer spent watching different material, again in a normal image there is no apparent flaw.
It is only high contrast Titles and subtitles at least) which causes this..

Note also that it is common, at least in the US, for TV manufacturers to ship their TVs set to default settings which are truly dreadful -- what are called the "torch" modes -- in order to produce overly bright/contrasty, overly red, and overly sharpness enhanced images which attract people in stores. If your TV is set that way, then it is quite possible that one DVD player might mute it's default signal expecting to be connected to a mis-adjusted TV whereas a "better" player might, by default, send out a "proper" signal which causes the mis-adjusted TV to look awful -- under the theory that folks buying the better player will take the time to adjust their TVs correctly. The point being, you really do need to calibrate the basic blacks/whites/colors/sharpness settings of your TV for your new DVD player before making any decisions about image quality.
--Bob


I will try playing with the DVD settings when it comes back from repair shop (where no repair has been done!).

doctorG4,
I wish I had an easy answer for you here, but I don't. Here are a few additional thoughts.

The menu control I mentioned as regards analog video output voltages is the one labeled Black Setup. In the 59avi, the choices are 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE which refer to the voltage on the analog video cable that represents "Black". Many TVs only have enough calibration range to work with one setting or the other and will exhibit a variety of image problems if sent the other voltage -- although I've not seen the particular problem you are getting. [The wrong setting here won't damage the TV, it's just that the image can't be made to look right.] When you change this control from one setting to the other you must then RE-adjust the blacks/whites/colors/sharpness setting on your TV to match. For example, switching from 0 IRE to 7.5 IRE will immediately make the picture look brighter, but that's only because you still have to make the corresponding adjustments on the TV. For a TV that is able to handle both voltages equally well, the image resulting after re-adjusting the TV will be IDENTICAL regardless of which voltage is chosen. For a TV that handles only one voltage well, the image will only look right when the player is set to send out that voltage, regardless of what you try to do to adjust the TV.

Although the THX Optimizer test charts are OK for a quick double check, they are not your best choice for actually setting up your player and TV. That's because these charts are sometimes mangled by the final editing process that created the movie DVD itself. I.e., the levels recorded on the Optimizer charts are just wrong on some DVDs, and there's no easy way for you to know which DVDs have them right and which have them wrong. This has become less of a problem recently, but for some older DVDs the errors introduced in the charts were quite large.

The PAL version of DVE has a dependable set of test charts. It is also the case that the PAL version of DVE is well known in the industry as a properly made DVD. And thus if you see the same sort of image defect when looking at images from DVE itself -- after properly adjusting the blacks/whites/colors/sharpness settings on your TV according to the narration on the DVD -- there is no doubt that the problem is actually that of the player being incompatible with your TV. I.e., Pioneer can't lay the blame on the DVD disc itself.

I don't know how much longer you will want to struggle with this. It seems you've bent over backwards to give Pioneer a chance to sort this out already, and whether the problem is just a few units or all of these SCART equipped units is hardly your concern since YOURS is broken. So you might just want to give up and try a different player.

But if you feel like working at this some more, then I'd suggest trying an alternate Black Setup menu option with your TV to see if that helps (after re-adjusting the levels on your TV). In any event, getting a copy of the PAL version of DVE would be a useful thing to do as it will help you get the best out of whichever player you end up with. In the US there's another popular calibration disc called Avia, but it does not yet exist in a PAL version.

I looked through the online owners manual for the 868avi and I don't have any other suggestions for you.
--Bob

Just a quick update. I watched a few films over the weekend (sky captain, and 'extende 'something else about mary') using the lumagen and 480i HDMI and its really been stunning on my H77. Ive never seen DVDs look this good and while i dont have the time right now to do an in depth comparison with the onboard 59avi 720p scaling, i really feel this is a step above. (ive always liked the SI 504 for films tho back to my denon 2900 days). I cant imagine it gets better than this, although the gang from Lumagen says once they implement the 10bit data path, it will clean up the 'low level noise' (apparently a by-product of scaling precision in 8-bit processing) which i can barely see unless i walk up to the screen. ( i do know the pioneer on its own and most all other players suffered from this as well).

Anyway just wanted to give a quick update. Now i know what all the SDI/Iscan people were raving about!

John

Thanks for that "teaser" update John.

Sounds good so far!

Dear Bob,

thanks for the nice words.

I have just ordered the PAL DVD Essential _and_ the Avia since the 868AVi-S can play NTSC as well (BTW this was a question some time ago from someone else on the thread : The European 868 can play both PAL and NTSC and output either to NTSC or to PAL 60). The only problem would be the region but that can be made region free reasonably easy.


Were not for this problem the 868AVi-S would be better than the 59 since it has additional outputs and can play both NTSC and PAL .

When the 868 comes back I will play with the setting and report (just for fun :-(, well sort of)

A question though, I thought that the IRE setting was sort of a normalisation factor on the whole signal leve (a sort of scaling/amplification)l, here you are saying that it affects only the back ? Have I misunderstood something ?

doctorG4,
First a side note to anyone else following this: As I read the 868avi owners manual, the player is capable of sending out a PAL signal if viewing a PAL DVD or an NTSC signal if viewing an NTSC DVD, or converting. However, if you have the player converting NTSC to PAL you are limited to an interlaced signal only. Progressive output will not work when converted. I don't know how this might affect an HDMI output. The Pioneer Europe web site has the owners manual online in their Support section if you want to check up on this.

Meanwhile as to IRE Setup levels, the details can be found in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=494606

The original idea was to keep all of the video content as postive voltages on the cable so that the sync signals could be sent as negative voltages which would be easier for cheaper electronics to detect. Since a video signal includes "Blacker than Black" data which comes from light levels recorded below what the producer choose to consider Black for artistic and quality control reasons, if you want to keep all the content signals as positive voltages you need to agree that "Black" will be represented by some voltage greater than zero so that there is positive voltage space below that for the Blacker than Black data.

However there's no good reason to do this except for convenience and so there are also analog TV signals where "Black" is represented as zero volts (0 IRE -- no "Setup" above 0) and the Blacker than Black data is represented as small negative voltages with the sync signals distinguished because they are much larger negative voltages.

Changing the Setup level affects the voltages used for the entire range of the signal from Black to White. This would not be an issue except that some source devices and some displays don't have enough flexibility to handle both voltage arrangements equally well.

If you change the voltage Setup you must re-adjust Black *AND* White levels on your TV. Partly this is because the whole signal is affected but mostly because the controls on the TV that adjust these (Brightness control to adjust Black levels and Contrast control to adjust White levels) interact on most TVs -- changing one means you also need to adjust the other and so forth. You need to iterate a bit to find the sweet spot settings that are correct for Both controls.

The image defect you are seeing, I think is due to some portion of the video signal path being driven beyond its working range. If the damage is being done inside the player, you may not be able to correct for it at your TV. But if the damage is being done in the TV (because the player is sending a signal the TV is not able to deal with), then making setting adjustments in the player and/or TV may very well reduce or eliminate the problem.
--Bob

I have a quick question:
Are you able to have both the component and hdmi connection hooked up at the same time and switch between the two with the 59avi?.
A friend of mine says if the component out is connected then hdmi will not function unless he disconnects the component. Is there a way to leave both hooked up and switch between the two? Thanks!

Originally posted by steviec
I have a quick question:
Are you able to have both the component and hdmi connection hooked up at the same time and switch between the two with the 59avi?.
A friend of mine says if the component out is connected then hdmi will not function unless he disconnects the component. Is there a way to leave both hooked up and switch between the two? Thanks!


I have component hooked up through the rcvr to access its OSD, and HDMI direct to display. HDMI works fine, although I have not tried to watch DVDs through component yet. Selection is made at the display.

Steviec,
Both can be connected at the same time but the Component outputs will not be live if there is an active HDMI connection. Depending upon what your TV does when you switch it from HDMI to Component input, the HDMI input into the TV may still look live as far as the 59avi is concerned, and thus the Component outputs won't be live. [This disabling of the Component outputs is part of the HDCP copy protection stuff.]

There is no button on the 59avi or it's remote to turn off HDMI if the 59avi sees a live HDMI or DVI input on the other end of the cable. So if that's how your TV works the only way to make the Component outputs live is to unplug the HDMI cable. If you turn off the HDMI at the TV end, it will take a few seconds for the 59avi to shut down the connection and turn on its Component outputs. Since the video settings in the 59avi for HDMI and Component outputs are independent, you do NOT have to worry about changing resolutions or whatever when switching between them.

As soon as the 59avi detects a live connection again on the HDMI cable it will automatically switch back to HDMI output and turn off the Component outputs.
--Bob

Okay, I popped in a disc and the Panasonic plasma can indeed switch on-the-fly between HDMI and component. I may try to do some comparisons later.

Thanks guys!

Well, due in large part to the many intelligent posts on this board, I joined the 59 club yesterday. We still have SDTV, so I got it mostly to improve RB/SACD sound, and to a much smaller degree to add DVDA capability, but I am thinking to the future when we'll upgrade to HD and will appreciate better PQ.

I just set it up this afternoon, but haven't had a chance to play yet because the family has commandeered the room to watch the Omen marathon on AMC.

Question about RB: I'm assuming setting the audio Hi-Bit "on" will improve performance. I know this is a very subjective option, and I'll play with it myself, but I was wondering what you gurus' thoughts and experience were?

Regards,
Doug

PS I think the only thing I'll miss on the old Sony 755 is the disc memory option, in which the player remembers the last viewed location of a DVD (not audio discs, and not from a menu, of course) after it's removed then replaced in the player.

Welcome Doug! We need more SDTV/59avi owners to flesh out the reports in this thread.

When you get a chance, post some details about your setup. How are you cabled? What are you using as aids to calibrating your TV? What are the firmware numbers from your 59avi? Any problems? In particular, are you seeing any of the problems that "doctorG4" reported as regards his European version player?

As far as "high bit", my understanding is that this feature, available on various RedBook (Newbie Translation: Conventional CD music disc) players including the 59avi, is that it is a "good thing", but that there are some who feel it hurts certain CDs and thus the option is in there to turn it off.
--Bob

I think the consensus is that Hi Bit is OK. It won't degrade the signal, and you might get some benefit out of it. But a lot of people do not like Legato Pro.

Originally posted by steviec
I have a quick question:
Are you able to have both the component and hdmi connection hooked up at the same time and switch between the two with the 59avi?.
A friend of mine says if the component out is connected then hdmi will not function unless he disconnects the component. Is there a way to leave both hooked up and switch between the two? Thanks!



I have my HDMI hooked up directly from the 59 to my PJ and the component is hooked up to my receiver (and then from the receiver to the PJ). By using the imput select button on my PJ remote, I can switch back and forth between the two sources on the fly.



Stew

When making video adjustments the 59 avi's menu takes up almost the entire
screen.Is there a way to make the size of the menu display smaller so you
could see more of what you're displaying and trying to adjust?