QUALIA 006 Owner's Thread [Text View] - Page 2

Dilbert1

01-23-05, 06:42 PM

NHEY addressed my concern about stand height. I think the height of the screen is probably important. The other stands I have been looking at are higher.
There was another comment about adding a black material insert to the Sony
stand. I think this would be easy to do if the opening to the stand is basically a rectangle. A simple frame with a thin foam border around the edges would work.
Then, all you have to do is stretch the material over the front, around the foam edges, and then staple from behind. The foam border could be the kind you buy at Home Depot to insulate your door. I like the foam border under the material because it would make a nice friction fit and give a slightly rounded look to the edges. I suppose if you were ambitious you could add hinges but I suspect it makes more sense to put the center speaker in the stand and then close it up with the material insert - and just leave it there.

I would really love to put all the equipment under the TV but it may just not be practical. Do you think a center speaker sounds better under the TV in the Sony stand or above the TV sitting on a shelf? If you took the center speaker out of the stand it would be easy to fit the components in the available space.

nhey

01-23-05, 06:50 PM

Dilbert1 -

I have my center speaker in the Sony stand. This is the first time I've ever had my center speaker below a TV.

NO PROBLEM. Can't tell any difference in the sound. I sit about 12 feet away. I actually placed the center speaker (which is obviously not too big) on top of my TIVO HD-DVR250 which has no vents on top.

Dilbert1

01-23-05, 07:25 PM

Kaduku wrote that he has a Denon 3910 and was interested in
comparing the Denon scaler to the Qualia 006 scaler. I wonder
if he has had a chance to do that and how the results turned out.
I need to buy a new DVD player and am trying to make the decision
what to buy. Others have suggested (Colortv I think) that a Sony
or Panasonic DVD would do fine if I use the Qualia scaler. I though I
would be using DVI instead of component to go from the player to the
Qualia 006 - correct? SD DVDs will likely be around for some time and
I think it makes sense to have a good solution for them.

I currently have Direct TV. I read a post about Comcast being less
compressed etc. Should I stay with Direct TV?

Thanks to all that have replied to me.

Dilbert1

Penton-Man

01-23-05, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by nhey
Has anyone noticed this phenomenon?

I had both component cables and a DVI to HDMI cable connecting my Comcast 6412 to the 006.

When switching inputs (going from component input 4 to the HDMI input 6) to see if there is any noticeable difference in the picture quality, I get a "double picture" with the HDMI input. If I switch back to the component input it goes away and the picture is normal. I have removed the DVI to HDMI cable and am staying with the component connection only.

Penton-man - is this the "handshake" issue you surmise causes the "artifact" described above?

Yes, I've seen the same "double picture" with my HD STB hooked up via DVI-HDMI....and not with component cables running from the other box...but all I've had to do was change the channel or turn off the HD STB for a sec. and then turn it back on and the double picture disappears.

Penton-Man

01-23-05, 07:32 PM

CBS game broadcast in 1080i looks noticably sharper than did the Fox game.

I don't know how much of this is due to stadium lighting in Pittsburg as I missed the later part of the Eagles game (walk the dog!) and I can't remember when they turned on the lights in Philly.

mauricef

01-23-05, 08:02 PM

Now that the Eagles have won a weight is lifted off my chest and I can post my settings. The CBS broadcast is much clearer than the Fox showing. Some of the Fox cameras were out of focus or were upsampled standard def cameras (particularly the long shots).

Here are my settings. They were all done in the Pro mode since it offers all the advanced options available.

Picture 58
Brightness 34
Color 33
Hue 0
Sharpness 25
Temp Neutral
Noise Low

Advanced Menu
Cinema Black Pro ON
Color Space WIDE
Color Corrector LOW
DTE OFF
Clear White OFF
Detail Enhancer OFF
Black Corrector MEDIUM
Gamma Corrector OFF
White Balance (not modified)

DOBE

01-23-05, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by Penton-Man
CBS game broadcast in 1080i looks noticably sharper than did the Fox game.

I don't know how much of this is due to stadium lighting in Pittsburg as I missed the later part of the Eagles game (walk the dog!) and I can't remember when they turned on the lights in Philly.

It's partially due to the lighting. The Eagles game looked a little better toward the end when the lights began taking effect. However, most of the difference you see is because CBS has more experience with HD and knows how to do "it".

It sounds like the 006 is not letting it's owners down. I've followed many threads. Usually there is complaining about something. This is especially true with new technology. STBs, HD TIVO, DVD players and on and on. Is it possible this SXRD technology is an exception to the rule that you should never buy the first product that includes new technology.

This rule usually applies to cars as well as audio. Is this really the exception. I''ll wait a few more months and hope you guys will report any problems you encounter. If they are small I will still pull the trigger.

So far...except the price...almost all these 006 reviews are too good to be true.:)

DOBE

01-23-05, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by DreamCatcher
BTW DOBE, As expected, NO contest between 006 and the P50! The 006 wins hands down, in every category (except the fact that the P50 looks cool mounted on the wall) and that's saying alot as the P50 is no slouch. dc

Dreamcatcher: Thanks for the report. Did all your guest agree? This is amazing coming from a P50 owner who still has the display and can compare it directly to the 006.

I saw a previous post on the plasma forum where you were considering the new Panasonic 65". It looks like it can be purchased for a bit less than the 006. What caused you to reject the Panny and buy the 006? Thanks.

wojtek

01-23-05, 08:09 PM

Heh, guys - I could see that the CBS telecast was sharper than Fox on my 34" Direct View set - the difference was that big.

CBS must have looked awesome on your Qualias.

Jason30

01-23-05, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by DOBE
Is it possible this SXRD technology is an exception to the rule that you should never buy the first product that includes new technology.

This rule usually applies to cars as well as audio. Is this really the exception. I''ll wait a few more months and hope you guys will report any problems you encounter. If they are small I will still pull the trigger.

So far...except the price...almost all these 006 reviews are too good to be true.:)

Remember, this is a second generation SXRD device. The 004 has been out for a couple years.

kaduku

01-23-05, 09:12 PM

Dilbert1,
I am assuming that the Denon 3910 scaler is overriding the 006 scaler while playing a dvd. I thought Colortv was going to find a way to disable the scaler on a player so that the scaler on the 006 can perform the upconverting. Anyway the PQ on the 006 with the 3910 is simply gorgeous. I agree on what Colortv says about dvd players. If the 006 scaler is that good, which I know it is, then you don't really need an expensive player, especially now that HD DVD is around the corner. On the other hand, if have money up your ass, then go for it!!!!!!! Denon 3910 is a great player.

nhey,
I can't believe these people complaining on how the Sony stand looks like. They should not talk if they have not seen it in person. I wished my stand was as low as the Sony stand.

DreamCatcher,
Congrats on getting your set.

mauricef,
Thanks for the settings you provided. I will try them after the game.

Everyone,
The CBS broadcast of the game, WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My Steelers is losing, but the 006 is the real winner.

nhey

01-23-05, 09:52 PM

Mauricef -

Did you use Avia or Digital Video Essentials to come up with your settings, or did you just eyeball them?

I'm so happy with this set's picture quality I haven't been able to use a calibration disk yet.

Agree with everyone else - the CBS game was even better than the Fox game picture-wise. Both great.

I've never seen such a sharp picture as the CBS game.

The black Pittsburgh uniforms were BLACK. Was anyone unhappy with the "blackness" of the uniforms? (without "black enhance" on).

The 16" height of the Sony stand should not be ignored. It also looks very nice in person.

P.S. I definitely don't work for Sony.

Penton-Man

01-23-05, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by mauricef

Here are my settings.

Can you tell us how you arrived at those settings ?

Thanks.

Do you have the D.V.E. 1080i version ?

mauricef

01-23-05, 09:55 PM

Yes from AVIA with a Panasonic XP50. I also tried these settings with a JVC DVHS and HDTV with CableCard and found them very pleasing. A with anything you mileage may vary.

Good Luck

Maurice

mauricef

01-23-05, 09:58 PM

I also agree that the blacks looked good on the Pittsburgh game no matter what settings I used. I was trying to correct some crush I had seen on test patterns.

mauricef

01-23-05, 10:00 PM

Penton I don't have DVE 1080i. I almost purchased it when I had the Toshiba LCOS. Maybe I will buy it now that I have a 1080i TV again.

Penton-Man

01-23-05, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by DOBE
Usually there is complaining about something..:)

13K still hurts.

I wonder what could have been if Rogo's Japanese engineer ever gets back to him and confirms that the scaler in the 006 does indeed bob.

Am I still happy about the purchase?
Most definitely.

Does the Sony stand bug me at all?
Not at all, especially given the fact that we live in earthquake country and our sectional is very low to the ground.

Penton-Man

01-23-05, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by DOBE

So far...except the price...almost all these 006 reviews are too good to be true.:)
They are....we're all Sony plants.:) :D :)

ehlarson

01-23-05, 10:04 PM

kaduku

01-23-05, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by jp2
Kaduku,
No issues with xbox with component adapter with 006. I purchased mx unleashed which is a 1080i xbox game and it looks very good. Just to make sure, I went into the xbox setup console and disabled everything except 1080i.

Halo 2 on the 006 rocks!!!

It just gets better and better!!!

Penton-Man

01-23-05, 10:59 PM

mauricef-
Which DRC mode in the Advanced Video menu did you select?

Or have you experimented with mode1 vs CineMotion ?

colortv

01-23-05, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by SRT-10 Viper
I am new to the forum... Have been following this forum as well as the previous one on Sony 006. I ordered the TV sight unseen based on the feedback here on the forum. I would like feedback on the way I plan to set up my system:

1) TV to Comcast HD STB (Firewire) since it has no HDMI it has DVI but
Firewire does both Digital Video and Audio
2) Comcast STB to Denon 5803 A/V Reciever (Optical)
3) Denon DVD to TV (HDMI)
4) Denon DVD to Denon 5803 A/V Receiver (Denon Link) this works now
5) JVC D-Video to TV (Firewire)
6) JVC D-Video to Denon 5803 A/V Reciever (Optical)

I figured since composite is Analog I would try to go all digital connections... Any recommendations on the above connections? I think I read from JB007 the TVs firewire port is 4 pin.

I get my 006 Tuesday... Can't wait!

Viper,
Another way to do your Firewire connections is as follows (no need to connect each Firewire device directly to the TV - you can loop the Firewire connections from one device to the next one, and terminate the final one at the TV):

Comcast STB >JVC DVHS (Firewire)
JVC DVHS>TV (using other Firewire port on DVHS machine).

This will allow you to record from the Comcast box to DVHS foir archiving your DVR, then view either Comcast STB or DVHS machine on the TV. Both will show up in the iLink menu on the TV - you select which device you wish to view. You will even have transport controls for the DVHS machine accessible on the iLink menu on the TV. Since you have Firewire 2 devices feeding the DVHS machine (the TV and the Comcast STB) you can select either device on the DVHS channel selector and record HD either from the TV's ATSC tuner or the Comcast box. For example, the Sony TV shows up as input I-3 on the DVHS machine's channel display, and the STB shows up as I-4 (the Firewire devices are automatically assigned - no intervention required on your part - just make the connections). Use the channel + and - buttons on your DVHS machine to toggle the Firewire inputs for recording on DVHS.

I tested the ability to archive the Comcast HD DVR to DVHS today and it works great on non-copy protected shows. But when trying to record a copy-protected program on DVHS, the on screen message on the DVHS machine is "unable to decode video and audio. Use set-top box or DVR."

colortv

01-23-05, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by anwaryussuf
I have read articles on the sony sxrd, but it doesn't mention if it has a built in hd tuner. does this tv have a built in hd tuner? For $13,000 Im hoping it has a built in hd tuner.

Yes, it has a built-in ATSC tuner.

Jason30

01-23-05, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by Penton-Man
I wonder what could have been if Rogo's Japanese engineer ever gets back to him and confirms that the scaler in the 006 does indeed bob.

Easiest way to find out is run the D.V.E. 1080i D-VHS. There's a way to test for it that was outlined in another thread I read some weeks back.

colortv

01-23-05, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by kaduku
Colortv,

Unfortunately, I don't have OTA signals in my area. Someone a few miles away, where they also said had no signals, was able to receive all the local HD stuff. Any suggests on this? Directv did get me CBS in HD. I've requested a waiver for ABC and NBC, will take up to 45 days for an answer. FOX is a no go, so no Super Bowl.

Why not try digital HD cable? You'll get your HD locals, a leased DVR with a Firewire port in case you want to archive DVR programs to HD DVHS, and what some of us think is a better picture than the satellite providers. Too bad my cable provider (Comcast) doesn't offer HDNet though, but InHD is decent. I wouldn't miss the Superbowl or the Oscars if I were you. Two of the biggest HD events of the year! My cable company offers month to month service and yours may too, which means you might not need a lengthy contract. That way you can evaluate both services and see which one you prefer. That was my intention when VOOM's promised DVR was to appear in March. Guess that's a dead issue now!

colortv

01-23-05, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by DreamCatcher
Well I finally received my 006 (Sat).
WOW, you guys are right, this set kicks major *ss:D
Best picture by a long shot I've ever seen. Even a good SD signal looks amazing.
Compared to our Fujitsu P50 plasma, well there is no comparsion, the 006 PQ is much, much better. Colors are just insanely good.

Only concern was the delivery crew, or lack there of.
The crew of two, a 65 year old man and his grandson, neither one the big beefy guys you like to see moving your $13K display.
My son and I both had to help them or they wouldn't have even got the beast out of the box.
I'm also having cable HD (Charter) hooked up this coming week and plan to do some comparsions with our current DirecTV HD stuff.

The 006 RULES!!!!

dc

WELCOME! We are evangelists for SXRD! Finally, A NO EXCUSES HDTV!

colortv

01-23-05, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by nhey
For those debating the merits of the Sony stand. Here's one thought in support of the stand, which I have. The stand is only 16" tall which is a major +++++ with this huge TV. The bottom of the screen is about 10" off the floor if you placed the TV on the floor with no stand. So... the bottom of the screen, when the TV is on the Sony stand is about 26 inches from the ground. If you get another stand, it will likely be about 24" tall itself. Adding 10" inches gives a floor to bottom of screen distance of 34" inches. This will mean that you will looking UP from most seating positions, and especially if you sit on a recliner. Something to consider.

The ONLY complaint I have about my Soundations Chicane 4 stand is that it is a bit taller than I would like. Sitting on my couch I have to look up a bit to center the SXRD screen. A valid point, nehy. So far, the only strain is on the corners of my mouth from the constant smiles and saying "I can't believe how gorgeous this thing is!"

colortv

01-23-05, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by nhey
Has anyone noticed this phenomenon?

I had both component cables and a DVI to HDMI cable connecting my Comcast 6412 to the 006.

When switching inputs (going from component input 4 to the HDMI input 6) to see if there is any noticeable difference in the picture quality, I get a "double picture" with the HDMI input. If I switch back to the component input it goes away and the picture is normal. I have removed the DVI to HDMI cable and am staying with the component connection only.

Penton-man - is this the "handshake" issue you surmise causes the "artifact" described above?

nhey,

So perhaps I have wasted my money on the DVI-HDMI cable I ordered to make the exact digital connection you mention. The component connection between 6412 and 006 is simply awesome and trouble-free. Too late to cancel my order for the cable from RAM.

rogo

01-23-05, 11:55 PM

You want to read the truth about what's actually happening to DirecTV read people like me, DTV Tivo Dealer at Tivocommunity and a few others. You want to be fear-mongered, fine.

The truth: New locals starting this summer in MPEG-4. True.

The truth: Boxes for existing HD subs replaced at little or zero cost. True.

The truth: The HD locals over satellite in MPEG-4 might launch before this an MPEG-4 capable DVR of any kind from DirecTV.

The maybe: So they might simulcast those locals in MPEG-2 for awhile. Maybe.

The lies: Buying something now is too risky. Lies, what's the risk? Existing HD Tivo units will be replaced at little or no cost to subs. Including units bought now.

The only thing DirecTV is doing wrong: Confusing people in the short run. They'd rather you not buy now so they don't have to swap you later. But really, what's the point of that?

colortv

01-24-05, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by kaduku
Dilbert1,
I am assuming that the Denon 3910 scaler is overriding the 006 scaler while playing a dvd. I thought Colortv was going to find a way to disable the scaler on a player so that the scaler on the 006 can perform the upconverting.

I guess I need to become a football fan. A friend of mine invited my over to watch the CBS game on his 60" XBR but I passed. He doesn't think my SXRD could possibly be better than his set. Went shopping for a new receiver instead.

With the Sony ND975V I made the lowest setting possible for HDMI output: 720x480p. Another selection is 720x480i - rogo may have a thought on which one is best and causes the least interference from the DVD player. I'm not familiar with the Denon player's settings.

kaduku

01-24-05, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by colortv
Why not try digital HD cable? You'll get your HD locals, a leased DVR with a Firewire port in case you want to archive DVR programs to HD DVHS, and what some of us think is a better picture than the satellite providers. Too bad my cable provider (Comcast) doesn't offer HDNet though, but InHD is decent. I wouldn't miss the Superbowl or the Oscars if I were you. Two of the biggest HD events of the year! My cable company offers month to month service and yours may too, which means you might not need a lengthy contract. That way you can evaluate both services and see which one you prefer. That was my intention when VOOM's promised DVR was to appear in March. Guess that's a dead issue now!

ColorTV,

That was my first approach, unfortunately Comcast is having trouble with my city, who is not allowing them (Comcast) to lay down newer cabling in my area that will be able to handle the HD signals. They are looking at mid-year in resolving this issue. Thought about Voom, but luckily I didn't.

Now you are saying that I should set my Denon 3910 to the lowest possible setting, so that the 006 will do the scaling. Now doesn't the 3910 keep scaling even if it is in the lowest setting? Wouldn't it be better if the player just stops scaling altogether?

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by mauricef
Yes from AVIA with a Panasonic XP50. I also tried these settings with a JVC DVHS and HDTV with CableCard and found them very pleasing. A with anything you mileage may vary.

Good Luck

Maurice

How was your XP50 (a true giant killer) tweaked?

I mean, by any chance, did you have it running on a previous display that was ISF calibrated and then you used the Avia disc to tweak the XP50 for the settings it has now???

punkzip

01-24-05, 01:03 AM

jp2,

I'm not much of an expert on computer games myself, just a player. A bunch of people had concerns about how this set would do as computer monitor or for video games, but I am hearing from you that it is fine as a computer monitor - how does text look? - and you apparently played Half Life 2 on it. I have heard from others that Xbox games are fine on it.

I think if you could play Half Life 2 at 1980 x 1080 at greater than 30 fps without artifact, that is what I would be interested in. I know you tried it but couldn't display the fps. A high end computer system can do a lot more than 30 fps. The frame rate displayed will be the frame rate of the computer system (mostly the graphics card) rather than the monitor, but if the computer is running at 80 fps and there is no artifact that would be what I am interested in.

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by mauricef
I also agree that the blacks looked good on the Pittsburgh game no matter what settings I used. I was trying to correct some crush I had seen on test patterns.

I just watched one show "Numbers" with your settings vs. what had been originally posted by someone that was gracious enough to jot down the settings that the 006 had in the NYC store, I believe.

I just noticed that the reds are MUCH redder with your settings and I was also required to turn the dimmer switch on the lights in my home theater WAY down (which is probably where it should be).

What is the lighting like in your home theater????

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by Jason30
Easiest way to find out is run the D.V.E. 1080i D-VHS. There's a way to test for it that was outlined in another thread I read some weeks back.
I know, I know it's just that nobody at this point in time has that D.V.E. and we're all too cheap to buy it after spending the 13K on the TV !

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by colortv
I guess I need to become a football fan. A friend of mine invited my over to watch the CBS game on his 60" XBR but I passed. He doesn't think my SXRD could possibly be better than his set. Went shopping for a new receiver instead.

With the Sony ND975V I made the lowest setting possible for HDMI output: 720x480p. Another selection is 720x480i - rogo may have a thought on which one is best and causes the least interference from the DVD player. I'm not familiar with the Denon player's settings.

Colortv -
If you desire to use the Qualia as the scaler rather than the Sony- then you want to pass 480i thru HDMI without question.

Have you played any DVD's in the Sony ND975V yet?
Have the people's faces looked jaundiced or are the color tones acceptable?

thestewman

01-24-05, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by colortv

With the Sony ND975V I made the lowest setting possible for HDMI output: 720x480p. Another selection is 720x480i - rogo may have a thought on which one is best and causes the least interference from the DVD player. I'm not familiar with the Denon player's settings.

Color TV

I am not an engineer but here is how I interpret what the forum is discussing and how to understand how to select the correct dvd player output.

The 480p output means it is 480 Horizontal lines of resolution and it is progressive output meaning it scans the whole frame on the screen all at one time. 480i is 480 lines of horizontal resolution and it is interlaced, meaning it only puts half the lines of resolution on the screen starting at the top and then goes back to the top and puts the alternate lines on the screen.

An interlaced system can cause flickering and causes a problem with the frequency of the frame rates used by the motion picture industry and has to use a system called inverse 3:2 pull down to bring the frame rate to its proper frequency. A poor inverse 3:2 pulldown system can introduce motion artifacts.

The 006 has a native display (SRXD/ LCOS) of 1080p. Interlaced input (480i)that the Sony receives to display the picture must be deinterlaced, subjected to 3:2 pulldown and upscaled before it can use it. These are three extra processing steps which could degrade the picture

Most progressive DVD players give you a choice of 480i or 480p output so 480p would be obviously be the selection of choice. The Sony 006 would use the 480p and only upscale it up to 1080p for the display. This would be an all digital conversion and result in a sharper clearer picture with less chance of any artifacts induced by the processing.

Any professional engineers correct me if I am incorrect.

Stew

colortv

01-24-05, 03:02 AM

Originally posted by kaduku
ColorTV,

Now you are saying that I should set my Denon 3910 to the lowest possible setting, so that the 006 will do the scaling. Now doesn't the 3910 keep scaling even if it is in the lowest setting? Wouldn't it be better if the player just stops scaling altogether?

That was my theory, and the very knowledgeable rogo concurs. If the scaler in the Qualia was crap like the scalers in most HDTV's, I'd think .. sure, why not - let the player do the scaling. But we have a much better scaler built into our 006's than most scaling DVD players. If there is a way to pass unscaled video from the DVD player through an all-digital path to the 006, I believe that's going to give the best results. One thing I have verified for sure... the scaler in the Sony NS975V DVD player is not nearly as good as the Qualia's - the difference is quite noticeable. When setting the DVD player's HDMI output to 1920x1080, the image on the Qualia was noticeably worse in almost every way than setting it to 720x480i or even "auto" mode. Again, not sure of the Denon player's capabilities.

colortv

01-24-05, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by thestewman

Most progressive DVD players give you a choice of 480i or 480p output so 480p would be obviously be the selection of choice. The Sony 006 would use the 480p and only upscale it up to 1080p for the display. This would be an all digital conversion and result in a sharper clearer picture with less chance of any artifacts induced by the processing.

It would be great if rogo or someone equally sharp would guide us here. Should we set our DVD players to 720x480i or 720x480p? Penton and Stew are at odds on this one.

Penton, I have seen absolutely no sign of the jaundiced "green depression" reported in Paul B's extensive tests of the Sony and Panny players. Skin tones are GORGEOUS and exactly as I would hope. I even verified it by viewing a DVD that I created and color corrected on a careful callibrated Apple HD Cinema display and calibrated monitor connected to my computer. Very faithful reproduction through the HDMI signal path from the Sony NS975V to the Qualia 006. I'm not doubting Paul's observations...but my experiences so far don't echo what he clearly saw in his tests.

colortv

01-24-05, 03:24 AM

I was mesmerized by the gorgeous images on my 006 tonight watching Desperate Housewives and Boston Legal. Stunning 35mm transfers! I soon realized I had forgotten to tone down the hot "VIVID" default video setting on the cable box input to the Qualia though - the highlights were just too hot for me. I had forgotten that our TV's allow individual settings for each input, so all are now set to "standard" picture and "neutral" color temp, as opposed to the default "vivid/cool" settings. I haven't done DVE yet or tried the settings donated to us by a couple of the guys, but I intend to.

I continue to be impressed with the pictures coming out of the Comcast/Motorola 6412 DVR. Far better than expected and if there were problems this set would surely show it. I also stopped by Animal Planet and a couple of other SD channels - they looked AWFUL! Heavily compressed. Hell, I'd rather watch an old VHS tape recorded from rabbit ears at SLP speed than that junk. A quick flip to Discovery HD calmed my jittery nerves. I new to the world of DVR - now I finally get what my friends have been telling me. It is addicting! I'm stocking up on DVHS tape stock so I can bounce off some goodies from the DVR.

Anyone know why some of the "advanced" settings such as "black corrector" "gamma corrector" and "white balance" are not available? A couple of the options are visible but grayed out and can't be tweaked.

mhafner

01-24-05, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by mauricef
I saw my first issue in the 006. It has some serious internal reflections. The credits of "The Village" were scrolling when I noticed a faint mirrored version of the credits scrolling in the opposite direction. I did some more testing and I could see them on any moving object on a all black background. This could be what DJ_V was seeing.

Well, is it clear now if the Qualia has visible internal reflections or was this the HDMI bug? Are there 'reflections' with component in during end credits white on black?

colortv

01-24-05, 04:09 AM

Originally posted by mhafner
Well, is it clear now if the Qualia has visible internal reflections or was this the HDMI bug? Are there 'reflections' with component in during end credits white on black?

I haven't seen these reflections and have watched a couple of shows with white credits over black.

nhey

01-24-05, 06:11 AM

ColorTV -

In PRO mode, all the Advanced settings are available for tweaking. As you noted, some of those settings are not present in Standard mode. Reasoning is that you need to be a "PRO" to know how to use them, so they kept them unavailable in Standard and Vivid.

I prefer the warm color temp setting because it is closest to the NTSC standard of 6500 K.

I'm getting my set calibrated on 2-23 by an expert ISF technician and I'll then know exactly how close the warm settings are. He calibrates the gray scale to 6500 k.

Amazing that I am thoroughly satisfied with the picture without using Avia or DVE yet.

You might as well try the DVI - HDMI cable and see if you get the same "double picture" as Penton-man and I get when we switch inputs. I'm thinking that if the only input you use is input 6 then maybe this won't be a problem.

Something I just thought about - does anyone know - when you turn this TV on, does it default to the "TV" input, or does it start on the last input you viewed?

Regarding Mauricef's settings (thanks for posting them), I think the contrast setting of 58 seems very high to me (isn't that all the way to the right on the scale?? like vivid??), but, admittedly, I come from a CRT RPTV where it was "forbidden" to run the set at a high contrast number due to burn-in concerns. I guess I have to train myself that I can now use a high contrast number since the 006 doesn't have burn-in issues.

Regarding a discrete code for the "TV" input, I programmed my Home Theater Master 800 to use the Channel Up command under TV and it works just fine. So, if I'm watching input 4 and want to go to the TV input directly, I set up the remote so that pressing one button triggers the TV Channel Up command and it takes me to the TV input. You can also skip inputs in the Menu.

karson

01-24-05, 07:50 AM

With respect to DVD player scaling, the best approach is to sample a few scenes on different outputs from your DVD player and let your eyes decide. One would assume that the scaler in the display itself SHOULD be the best one for the job, since it's tuned specifically for that display (as opposed to the one in your DVD player or an outboard scaler which is meant to work with every all displays), but you know what happens when you assume. Give it a try and see!

BrettStah

01-24-05, 09:42 AM

OK, I'm designing a new entertainment center, and I see that there's some discussion about the height of the stand - what is the consensus for the best height for this TV? (Assume typical height for the people and furniture they'll be sitting on).

ADGrant

01-24-05, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by colortv
It would be great if rogo or someone equally sharp would guide us here. Should we set our DVD players to 720x480i or 720x480p? Penton and Stew are at odds on this one.

I don't know that I am equally sharp but given the quality of the scaler in the 006, I would set the DVD player to output 480p if it has a better deinterlacer than the 006 or 480i if it does not. Sony DVD players are not highly regarded in this respect.

nhey

01-24-05, 10:19 AM

Brettstah -

Without any question, my opinion is that the lowest stand possible that fits your components heights is what you want, assuming you are going to be storing components under the set in the stand. I have an 8" inch tall receiver that fits in the stand with about 3" inches open above it, that does provide enough cooling space (I was worried it wouldn't but it seems to be doing just fine). As I've stated above, the 16" Sony stand works fine, but for some folks seeing the set and stand for the first time, they say the TV screen is higher than what they are used to. If you are building a stand, I would NOT make it any taller than 16", and if you can get by with a 14" tall stand that will be O.K. with the height of your components, I'd suggest doing that. I personally would have a lot of difficulty (very low family approval rating) with a 24" inch or taller stand, which most are, with a 70" inch screen that starts about 10" from the bottom of its pedestal. You may have to give up some aesthetics for practicality in this case. Of course, a custom-built stand would be the best since it fits YOUR needs.

John Mason

01-24-05, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by nhey
Has anyone noticed this phenomenon?

I had both component cables and a DVI to HDMI cable connecting my Comcast 6412 to the 006.

When switching inputs (going from component input 4 to the HDMI input 6) to see if there is any noticeable difference in the picture quality, I get a "double picture" with the HDMI input. If I switch back to the component input it goes away and the picture is normal. I have removed the DVI to HDMI cable and am staying with the component connection only.

May have missed a previous answer, but observed this with my RPTV/DVD setup a few years back. Here, it was caused by a feeding a deinterlaced 480p out from my Toshiba DVD player into a RPTV component input meant for 480i. As a result, my RPTV's Genesis deinterlace chip was trying to deinterlace an already deinterlaced 480p signal. Result: a double image. The fix: Feeding the deinterlaced DVD output into a HD YPbPr RPTV input designed for 480p. With a STB, it needs a setup that will provide the correct format expected by the Qualia. -- John

nhey

01-24-05, 11:14 AM

John,

I have the Comcast 6412 DVR connected via a DVI to HDMI cable to the 006 to "input 6", which is one of its two HDMI inputs. I also had, at the same time, a set of component cables connecting the Comcast box to "input 4" of the 006, which is one of its two component inputs meant for 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Both component inputs on the 006 are labeled as accepting 480p, 720p, and 1080i, so I don't think it is an issue of this being a component input only accepting 480i. Whenever I switched the TV to input 6, I got a double picture. I don't recall if that went away when I changed the channel, but I'm pretty sure it did.

Apparently, a firewire connection from the Comcast box to the 006 works fine, as per some posts from ColorTV above.

Penton-man sees the same thing as me when he switches his 006 to one of the HDMI inputs, with only the DVI to HDMI connection (without the component cable hooked up). He says that when he changes the channel the double picture goes away.

The question is if this is a bug in the TV.

Could someone else with the Comcast 6412 box try to hook it up via a DVI to HDMI cable to the 006, then switch inputs to that, and see if you also get a double picture, and does that double picture go away when you change the channel?

If its a bug with the TV, then any component with a DVI output like some DVD players, hooked up to input 6 via HDMI to the TV should also have the same "double picture" problem, correct?? Has anyone connected a DVD player with a DVI output to the 006 with a DVI to HDMI cable and seen this problem?

I also have the Directv TIVO HD10-250 DVR which has an HDMI output. When I hook it to the 006 via an HDMI to HDMI cable, I get no picture whatsoever - the screen is black. However, this is likely due to a well-known bug in the TIVO unit (as I understand it). My HD-TIVO was one of the earlier ones made (June 2004). Later ones are supposed to have this problem fixed. I may just ask them to swap it out for me.

DreamCatcher

01-24-05, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by nhey
Brettstah -

Without any question, my opinion is that the lowest stand possible that fits your components heights is what you want, assuming you are going to be storing components under the set in the stand. I have an 8" inch tall receiver that fits in the stand with about 3" inches open above it, that does provide enough cooling space (I was worried it wouldn't but it seems to be doing just fine). As I've stated above, the 16" Sony stand works fine, but for some folks seeing the set and stand for the first time, they say the TV screen is higher than what they are used to. If you are building a stand, I would NOT make it any taller than 16", and if you can get by with a 14" tall stand that will be O.K. with the height of your components, I'd suggest doing that. I personally would have a lot of difficulty (very low family approval rating) with a 24" inch or taller stand, which most are, with a 70" inch screen that starts about 10" from the bottom of its pedestal. You may have to give up some aesthetics for practicality in this case. Of course, a custom-built stand would be the best since it fits YOUR needs.
I agreee competely.
I currently have my 006 on a 25" stand and that is too high. I will probably pick up the Sony stand (or something) although it won't accomandate all my components, not the ideal situation but the PQ of the 006 makes the compromises well worth it!

dc

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by colortv
It would be great if rogo or someone equally sharp would guide us here. Should we set our DVD players to 720x480i or 720x480p? Penton and Stew are at odds on this one.

Colortv-
You know its been awhile back …but when I was considering possibly buying an external scaler for the 006 (before the price hike and before the 1080p input confusion)
As per Beefchoppers collaboration, I called the DVDO people and asked them what would a DVD player have to pass on HDMI to hook up an external video processor/scaler.

I was told 480i.
Not sure but the HDCP issue may be of some bearing here.

I will submit the above question to our DVD guru and try to get an unequivocal answer.

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by nhey
ColorTV -

I'm getting my set calibrated on 2-23 by an expert ISF technician and I'll then know exactly how close the warm settings are. He calibrates the gray scale to 6500 k.

Wow, that's fast.

Let us know all his tweaks post calibration.

Are you by chance using the CEDIA award winning EDG outfit in your neck of the woods for the ISF calibration?

TheMostToyzWins

01-24-05, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by colortv
It would be great if rogo or someone equally sharp would guide us here. Should we set our DVD players to 720x480i or 720x480p? Penton and Stew are at odds on this one.

The data is stored on the dvd at 480i. You should let the best processor (scaler / deinterlacer) to the conversion, and without question, the one in your TV is superior. Therefore, the best picture will be obtained by supplying your tv with as close to the raw data stream as possible. Set your DVD player to 480i and let your TV do it's thing.

nhey

01-24-05, 12:05 PM

Penton-man -

My calibrator is Eliab from avical.com. Very well known, does nationwide tours. Highly recommended.

I have an idea about the double picture problem I just thought of. I have my Comcast box setup to output everything in 1080i. So the 006 is receiving an interlaced signal. Maybe if we set the Comcast DVR to output only 480p or 720p then the 006 will receive a progressive signal over the HDMI input and all will be well. Also, maybe its better to let the 006 scale everything, so setting the Comcast to 480p or 720p allows the Qualia to upscale it to 1080p.

Want to try that? You shut off the Comcast box and then immediately press menu and you can then change the 1080i output to 480p.

I BET THAT WILL WORK !!!! I can't try it until tonight so if you're home go ahead, be the first...

If it does, this would mean that anyone connecting a component with a DVI or HDMI output to the Qualia input 6 or 7 needs to be sure to set the component to output a progressive signal and not an interlaced signal. A nice tip worthy of page 1 status if it works.

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 12:10 PM

Jason30

01-24-05, 12:13 PM

In the manual does it list the formats accepted over HDMI? In the specs on their website it lists them for component (1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i) but not HDMI. I'd assume they'd be the same, but it's worth checking.

NorthJersey

01-24-05, 12:14 PM

nhey, did you also try enabling 720p as well as 480p on your Comcast STB ? Then the 006 wouldn't have to deinterlace the HD signal, just upconvert to 1080p

nhey

01-24-05, 12:25 PM

NorthJersey -

Good idea. Didn't think of that. Probably both a 480p or 720p output from the Comcast box will work over the DVI to HDMI cable with no double picture. Not sure if outputting a 480p signal and letting the Qualia upscale it to 1080p is better than outputting a 720p signal and letting the Qualia upscale it from there. My guess is you probably can't see a difference, but that theoretically it is always better to let the Qualia do the most work - in other words let it take a 480i (over component connection) or a 480p over HDMI connection up to 1080p, and let the DVD player or set top box do the least manipulation of the signal possible.

Meaning.... should we be setting our 480i/480p capable progressive scan DVD players to output 480i over component to the Qualia as suggested by "the mosttoyzwins" above?? I don't have "eagle vision" as some apparently do, so I doubt I'll see a difference but some probably will.

The manual does not state what the HDMI inputs accept.

BrettStah

01-24-05, 12:25 PM

Thanks for the replies about the stand height. I am very glad this topic came up, because my initial design of my entertainment center had the TV stand part of it at a height of 16.5". (I'm not putting my equipment under there... I was going to use it for media, or for miscellaneous storage). I will revise it down to 14" now. I'm sure I will still find some use for that space, but it's not critical that I do so.

nhey

01-24-05, 12:26 PM

Brettstah -

Glad to be of service. That's the purpose of great threads like this one!!

TheMostToyzWins

01-24-05, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by Penton-Man
Did you buy the 006 as your newest toy?

I mean you must stay truthful to your moniker!

Would be nice, I've spent some time with it and it is an AWSOME set. But it's the "most" toys that counts, not necessarily the most expensive. ;-)

For displays I have:
Sony KDF-60xs955
Sony KV-40xbr800
Sony VPL-HS20
Samsung HL-P5674W
Samsung LT-P468W
IBM T221
And various other 19 - 21" TV's in guest rooms.

Just to stay on topic, with 4 progressive DVD players, using AVIA and THX, the picture is better in 480i on fixed pixel displays (LCD, DLP) and better in 480p on CRT (the KV-40xbr800 seems to like 480p better?) It actually drove me crazy at first, for some reason, most progressive DVD players actually crush black. For a while I thought it was the TV's, but then one day (because of a thread here on AVS) I tried 480i and all of a sudden I could see and adjust the lower IRE. :-)

jp2

01-24-05, 01:04 PM

nhey,
I use both inputs 6 and 7 with 1080i input and I have not experienced any of the image issues that you mention. I have my d* samsung stb set to output 1080i through its dvi port and then connect to the 006 via a dvi to hdmi adapter. On input 7 I have a htpc outputting 1080i (still trying to get stable drivers for 1080/24PsF) from its dvi into the hdmi port on the tv. I have not decided on what to do about a pvr yet. My 2 options are to get the hd-tivo and keep d* or go with comcast cable and use their 6412. Does anyone know if I can use the 6412 with a cablecard from comcast? The reasoning is that the cablecard may give me the best pq but then I need some device for the pvr functionality. I don't know if its possible to just use the 6412 as a pvr and use the cablecard/tv for the tuning functions.
brgds,
jp

colortv

01-24-05, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by jp2
Does anyone know if I can use the 6412 with a cablecard from comcast? The reasoning is that the cablecard may give me the best pq but then I need some device for the pvr functionality. I don't know if its possible to just use the 6412 as a pvr and use the cablecard/tv for the tuning functions.
brgds, jp

jb,

I asked Comcast that very question, and they said it's not possible to have cablecard and use the 6412 as a standalone PVR. Also, the 6412 has dual tuners so even if you could use it standalone, you would likely not have dual tuner PVR functionality. To take advantage of what a PVR can do to improve your life, I think dual tuners are a must. I've only used my 6412 one day now, and it was great to record one HD show last night while watching another.

Speaking of Comcast, they have a bug - their clock is incorrect. I verified that it is 20 seconds late, thereby not recording the first 20 seconds of a show it is set to record. Fortunately it's not difficult to modify recording start and end times on the 6412, but Comcast needs to check their watch - I'll call 'em on it.

mauricef

01-24-05, 01:54 PM

Penton

The XP50 was used on a calibrated set. I did not see my picture get much redder as you described using my settings. The current location of the TV is dimmly lit so maybe that is a difference. Perhaps the 006 TVs have a fair amout of variation.

The TV will end up in my "sports bar" I just added to my basement. It will be in a custom cabinet surrounded by other displays so I can enjoy multiple sporting events at once. This area will be well lit so I may have to calibrate again for the new environment. It should be done this week just in time for the Super Bowl

nhey

The 58 for the contrast setting was the default value and I did not touch it. It seemed fine on my display.

mhafner

I noticed the internal reflections using component imput from a Panasonic XP50. I could only see it during scrolling objects on an all black background.

colortv

01-24-05, 02:00 PM

I ran DVE on my 006 last night. The set is amazing well calibrated from the factory at the standard settings, perfectly centered image too. It's hard to imagine what kind of magic a calibration guy is gonna get out this thing but it will be interesting to hear how nhey's tweak turns out. I intend to spend that money elsewhere on a few other upgrades to my HT (power conditioner, etc). If this were any lesser TV I'd go for the calibration.

mauricef

01-24-05, 02:03 PM

I agree I don't think calibration would be worth it. There are so many more toys to buy.

ADGrant

01-24-05, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by colortv
Why not try digital HD cable? You'll get your HD locals, a leased DVR with a Firewire port in case you want to archive DVR programs to HD DVHS, and what some of us think is a better picture than the satellite providers. Too bad my cable provider (Comcast) doesn't offer HDNet though, but InHD is decent. I wouldn't miss the Superbowl or the Oscars if I were you. Two of the biggest HD events of the year! My cable company offers month to month service and yours may too, which means you might not need a lengthy contract. That way you can evaluate both services and see which one you prefer. That was my intention when VOOM's promised DVR was to appear in March. Guess that's a dead issue now!

Happy to hear that HD cable is working out for you. I was in the Sony store in NYC on Sunday and watched part of the Fox broadcast of the NFC game via DirectTV. The PQ was not very good, Cablevision and TimeWarner are way better for PQ.

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by nhey
Penton-man -

My calibrator is Eliab from avical.com. Very well known, does nationwide tours. Highly recommended.

Probably also a fine choice.

For anyone in the N.Y./N.J. area check out EDG - 2004 CEDIA Dealer of the Year as per....
http://www.cedia.net/awards/industry_recognition04.php

ADGrant

01-24-05, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by TheMostToyzWins
The data is stored on the dvd at 480i. You should let the best processor (scaler / deinterlacer) to the conversion, and without question, the one in your TV is superior. Therefore, the best picture will be obtained by supplying your tv with as close to the raw data stream as possible. Set your DVD player to 480i and let your TV do it's thing.

Scaling and deinterlacing are two different things. The scaler on my Grand Wega is excellent, the deinterlacer is inferior to the one in my DVD player (a Panasonic XP30).

Also if you send the DVD signal over component, the TV will have to deinterlace after the signal has been converted back to digital.

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by colortv
I ran DVE on my 006 last night. The set is amazing well calibrated from the factory at the standard settings, perfectly centered image too. It's hard to imagine what kind of magic a calibration guy is gonna get out this thing but it will be interesting to hear how nhey's tweak turns out. I intend to spend that money elsewhere on a few other upgrades to my HT (power conditioner, etc). If this were any lesser TV I'd go for the calibration.
color - please list your settings.

Beefchopper

01-24-05, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Penton-Man
Colortv-
You know its been awhile back …but when I was considering possibly buying an external scaler for the 006 (before the price hike and before the 1080p input confusion)
As per Beefchoppers collaboration, I called the DVDO people and asked them what would a DVD player have to pass on HDMI to hook up an external video processor/scaler.

I was told 480i.
Not sure but the HDCP issue may be of some bearing here.

I will submit the above question to our DVD guru and try to get an unequivocal answer.

Hi Penton.

When I spoke to the DVDO engineer he advised me that you want to get the cleanest possible digital signal into the best processor. He was talking about his own external processor but if the scaler in the Sony is superior to that in the DVD player (which seems likely) I believe the same advice would hold. That means using a SDI DVD player (if that is available) or using a DVD player that can pass 480i through DVI or HDMI. Most DVD players will not pass 48-i through DVI or HDMI but the Sony 975, for one, will.

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by mauricef
Penton

The XP50 was used on a calibrated set.
Excellent !

What about your Advanced Video setting...Mode 1 or CineMotion?

nhey

01-24-05, 02:17 PM

JP2 - besides the 2 connections you mentioned (the Samsung and the HTPC), do you have any other connections going to the 006?

mauricef

01-24-05, 02:20 PM

I think it was Mode 1 since I don't remember touching it. When I have time I will play with more settings. I did try the various sharpening and detail enchancments but decided to leave them off. The picture was already the clearest I had seen and these things are probably doing more to harm the picture that help.

Maurice

colortv

01-24-05, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by Penton-Man
color - please list your settings.

Penton,

I went with mauricef's settings for now. Too bad there's no way to see test signals from every source on every input to take advantage of invidual input settings. Moving the feeds from our DVD players running our calibration DVD's is not an accurate way to see what's coming in from our various sources. For ultimate accuracy on every input, wouldn't we need to see test patterns coming from our cable or satellite providers and make adjustments from there?

I'll give you an analogy ... back in the good old days of quadruplex color videotape, one hotshot engineer I knew wanted to save time when the pressure started to build before recording an important show. So he would record color bars and tone at the head of several reels of tape on only one VTR during slow times in advance of the production. Then when it was time to get all the VTR's loaded up with tape stock before recording a mulitple camera show, he'd put those tapes on different VTR's than the test signals were recorded on. Therefore the test signals were virtually meaningless because they didn't actually refer to the important program content recorded later on the tape. Fortunately, we corrected his bad habits. Sorry to veer OT ... but the concept is similar to what we are dealing with on our TV's with individual settings on every input.

For now, I set all inputs the same expect for the component feed from the Comcast 6412. When I get my DVI-HDMI cable from RAM, I'll take another look at the cable signal and go from there. The real voodoo is going to be the DRC settings - I bet the tweaks are going to be very subjective.

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by colortv
Penton,

I went with mauricef's settings for now.

Did you notice your reds - redder after mauricef's tweaks ? and for that matter the blacks seemed even blacker to me.

How about did you need to dim your lights anymore after his settings?

jp2

01-24-05, 02:33 PM

nhey,
I have an xbox connected via component cables and a yamaha s2300 dvd player connected via component. I plan on calibrating the hdmi ports with my htpc and the component inputs via my dvd player.

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by colortv
Moving the feeds from our DVD players running our calibration DVD's is not an accurate way to see what's coming in from our various sources. For ultimate accuracy on every input, wouldn't we need to see test patterns coming from our cable or satellite providers and make adjustments from there?

I believe you're correct.

colortv

01-24-05, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Penton-Man
Did you notice your reds - redder after mauricef's tweaks ? and for that matter the blacks seemed even blacker to me.

How about did you need to dim your lights anymore after his settings?

Penton,

I'll retract my statement that I went with mauricef's settings. I started with them, and did some tweaks from there. I didn't change any lighting in the room. The DVE patterns looked spot on when I finished and were confirmed by looking at some very pretty pictures when I was finished, included better shadow detail.

I'm at work now, so I'll check the settings tonight .. AFTER I watch "24," and report back.

mauricef

01-24-05, 02:40 PM

Penton, "even blacker" was not my goal. Can you try the LOW setting for the black enhancement and tell us if you find your picture better?

nhey

01-24-05, 02:51 PM

I asked this question before, with no answer.

This may be better directed to the front projector crowd. Does running the 006 at a high contrast level diminish the bulb life, or is the bulb either on totally no matter what user settings are made, or off?

I know the 006 can be run in a "power saving" mode that reduces the brightness/contrast of the picture, but the manual doesn't say if that serves to increase bulb life.

I guess my question comes down to this - can the user regulate the output of the bulb or do the user settings only affect the mechanical iris that manages the light output from the bulb external to the bulb?

nhey

01-24-05, 02:54 PM

Penton-man -

Based on JP2's response, it may be that it is the Comcast DVR 6412 that is causing the problem, and not a glitch with the 006 preventing it from accepting an interlaced signal without creating a "double picture" over input 6 or 7.

Do you have any other component that has a DVI output you can hook up to the 006 to input 6, to see if you still get the double picture?

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by nhey
Penton-man -

Based on JP2's response, it may be that it is the Comcast DVR 6412 that is causing the problem, and not a glitch with the 006 preventing it from accepting an interlaced signal without creating a "double picture" over input 6 or 7.

Do you have any other component that has a DVI output you can hook up to the 006 to input 6, to see if you still get the double picture?

I don't think you can blame the 006 for the double pic, I think that it simply has a momentary problem of not communicating with the 6412 over DVI/HDMI - whose to say who owns the "glitch".

All I know is that it is not a big deal for me because all I do is change the channel or power off the STB then power it back on and all clears up.

Unfortunately, no, I don't have any other components with DVI output- but my DVR provider plans to activate that port sometime this spring.

Just wanted to let you guys know again...that I have 2 set top boxes, an Adelphia Moxi which is their DVR unit (Charter cable uses the same)- and just a conventional High Def box that I am renting also from them... a Moto 6200. You may want to do the same with your local cable company - because I notice a definite increase (but slight to moderate when I say "definite") in the PQ of the HD box compared to the DVR box.

Both have the latest firmware available and were set up with a lead tech AND a supervisor.

I attribute the difference to the fact that the incoming cable signal goes thru less processing in the HD box than the DVR box because there is no recording potential in the former. So when I want to see the absolute BEST pic I use the HD box for live TV and when I HAVE to record I use the DVR box.

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by mauricef
Penton, "even blacker" was not my goal. Can you try the LOW setting for the black enhancement and tell us if you find your picture better?
That's the first thing I thought of and if I had to guess I would say that is making the blacks look blacker- which I like!

I think I may just go back to the CES settings first posted my bernster awhile back because it seems that I have to make my home theater room too much like a cave (which everyone dislikes) in order to appreciate your stuff....with the caveat that I may just use the CES settings and set the black correction to medium like you did.

I need more time and different programming to see what suits me the most.

SABAlove

01-24-05, 04:43 PM

nhey- don't want to be OT, but i seem to recall reading somewhere that because the HDMI is a powered link, you should have both components completely off (e.g., unplugged) when you connect the cables, otherwise the circuit might get zapped. there was a theory that this was causing the faulty HDMI outputs on the HD-DVR. No idea how true it is, but I will be cautious hooking stuff up to the new TV.

Penton- qualia due to arrive tomorrow IF delivery company and Sony can agree that the correct zip code for Santa Monica is 90403. Even Saba knows that.

Finally, you have to ask yourself, "how much more blacker can it be? and the answer is: none. None more black" - Spinal Tap

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 04:50 PM

If you require any prolonged lifting of the unit(like I did for the upstairs delivery) be sure to tell Saba to call the NVC rep in Norwalk (who I assume is delivering your unit) and have them send out their strongest guys.

SABAlove

01-24-05, 05:11 PM

Penton, Saba will probably drool on the delivery guys and try and get them to play fetch. I will be drooling on the TV.

colortv

01-24-05, 05:23 PM

SABAlove or anyone soon to take 006 delivery with the Sony stand, please help.

I got the Soundations Chicane 4 stand. I really like it, although it is a few inches taller than optimum. I want to lock my 006 to the stand in a manner similiar to the way Sony does it with their stand (quake topple prevention). Could you take a digi pic of the top of the Sony stand BEFORE the delivery guys set the 006 on top of it and post the pic on the forum so I can see what Sony did? I might fashion something similar for my Chicane. It's gonna be fun to heave the beast off and back on my stand to do the modification job!

Thanks in advance! Much appreciated!

colortv

01-24-05, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by Penton-Man
I notice a definite increase (but slight to moderate when I say "definite") in the PQ of the HD box compared to the DVR box.

Both have the latest firmware available and were set up with a lead tech AND a supervisor.

I attribute the difference to the fact that the incoming cable signal goes thru less processing in the HD box than the DVR box because there is no recording potential in the former. So when I want to see the absolute BEST pic I use the HD box for live TV and when I HAVE to record I use the DVR box.

Penton,

I "think" I notice a very slight difference in PQ between the original Comcast HD STB and the Motorola 6412 with DVR. But it is very slight if at all and the jury is out on this one. I'm not certain that the 6412 DVR further compresses the incoming signal. I DVR'd a Discovery HD show the other day - beautiful shots of a sunset and crisp details on the surface of a lake at sunset. No visible compression artifacts or stepping in the gradations of the sky, and the details in the moving surface of the water are very clean. Also, excellent rendition of blowing leaves on trees - one of the most severe tests of successful (or not) compression. Our 006's are so crisp they should bring out the worst in a less-than-perfect signal. For now, I'm living with a possible PQ loss (if any) through the DVR to get live pause functionality. I mentioned previously I am a DVR newbie, but now that I've seen the power of a DVR I can't think of a better way to take control of TV broadcasts.

Jason30

01-24-05, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Penton-Man
Just wanted to let you guys know again...that I have 2 set top boxes, an Adelphia Moxi which is their DVR unit (Charter cable uses the same)- and just a conventional High Def box that I am renting also from them... a Moto 6200. You may want to do the same with your local cable company - because I notice a definite increase (but slight to moderate when I say "definite") in the PQ of the HD box compared to the DVR box.

Both have the latest firmware available and were set up with a lead tech AND a supervisor.

I attribute the difference to the fact that the incoming cable signal goes thru less processing in the HD box than the DVR box because there is no recording potential in the former. So when I want to see the absolute BEST pic I use the HD box for live TV and when I HAVE to record I use the DVR box.

Try a cable card instead of the second box. That's the best way to get the signal directly to the 006 unmolested.

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 07:16 PM

I already thought of that but
#1. I'm not sure the cable card will work with another set-top box. and

#2. I want the outputs on the back of the Hi-Def box to hook up to a D Theater machine.

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 07:21 PM

Let me just caution anyone considering buying colortv’s Sony NS975V player.
I almost bought that instead of the Panny S97S.

It really was a close call. Then all of a sudden the dealbreaker on the Sony for me was as the Sony thread documents, there have been many instances of people returning their units (some two or three times) for the tray locking or the player not playing the disc.

It seems to me that in such a small test group as the posters on AVS forum with THAT many complaints about the same thing that it was indeed statistically significant.

I was just unwilling to take the chance of having guests over…..or even just sitting down with my wife and myself one evening to watch an eagerly anticipated DVD – and the damn player wouldn’t play the disc!

To me that’s just an unacceptable risk and Sony appears to be unwilling to do anything about it.

The Panny aint perfect either –so its kind of pick your poison here until Blu-ray debuts.
For me the bottom line was to spend no more than $300 and now I can even get a D Theater machine and the total cost of both will still be below the highly esteemed Pioneer 59 avi(?).

Sure the Panny doesn’t pass 480i over HDMI and I’m using the Panny rather than the 006 to upconvert the image – but God the pic is beautiful so the Panny must have a decent scaler --- and I can always pass 480i through component to the 006 and use the 006’s video processor to do all the legwork if I think that will look better.

vidkidd

01-24-05, 07:27 PM

There is no difference in the 6412 and previous generations boxes with regards to MPEG2 encoders. The bad A/D MPEG2 compression that is on the 6412 will be fixed in the soon to be released 120GIG model.

Firewire is a direct copyprotected pass-thru of the original signal with no recompression.

Thx,
Vidkidd

colortv

01-24-05, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by vidkidd
There is no difference in the 6412 and previous generations boxes with regards to MPEG2 encoders. The bad A/D MPEG2 compression that is on the 6412 will be fixed in the soon to be released 120GIG model.

Firewire is a direct copyprotected pass-thru of the original signal with no recompression.

Thx,
Vidkidd

Hmmm, I'd better check the model number on my Motorola DVR. Maybe it's not a 6412, because it supposedly has a 120 gig drive and Comcast told me it's their newest unit. Any idea what the model number of that new DVR is? The one I have looks REALLY good!

So far no tray problems or negatives of any kind with the Sony DVD player. Of course they are gonna solve the problem if I have one. Perhaps by now there are new units in circulation that don't exhibit the tray problem we've heard about. The Panny player is a fine one - the ONLY reason I didn't get it is because of more than one review mentioning undesireable macroblocking. A friend of mine who owns one of the Sony players watches a lot of DVDs, and he's never had a problem. That doesn't mean I won't of course.

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by colortv
Hmmm, I'd better check the model number on my Motorola DVR. Maybe it's not a 6412, because it supposedly has a 120 gig drive and Comcast told me it's their newest unit. Any idea what the model number of that new DVR is? The one I have looks REALLY good!

So far no tray problems or negatives of any kind with the Sony DVD player. Of course they are gonna solve the problem if I have one. Perhaps by now there are new units in circulation that don't exhibit the tray problem we've heard about. The Panny player is a fine one - the ONLY reason I didn't get it is because of more than one review mentioning undesireable macroblocking. A friend of mine who owns one of the Sony players watches a lot of DVDs, and he's never had a problem. That doesn't mean I won't of course.

Well that's the problem - that aren't any new units in circulation that have a Sony fix - heck just check the last few pages of the Sony thread and people have sent their unit in, picked up another "new" player and same thing happened.

It scared the hell out of me.

I didn't see any macroblocking with the 006 after watching about 15 DVD's and indeed it is VERY display dependent;nevertheless, Panny just came out with a firmware fix in Canada and soon to be in U.S. to greatly fix the MB problem- which I never felt was an issue with the 006 - as I said on the 15 or so discs that I watched.

3 hours to 24!

nhey

01-24-05, 09:33 PM

I switched my Comcast 6412 to output 720p and got the double picture. However, I then switched it back to output 1080i and have been able to switch back and forth among input 4 (component) and input 6 (HDMI) with no double picture. We'll see if the problem has been permanently fixed or if it comes back tomorrow night.

I'm now thinking its best to have the 6412 output 1080i which is the same resolution as most material (except ABC and ESPN)- maybe it just passes it through untouched.

Penton-man - you are right - just changing the channel also removes the double picture effect, so its only a minor annoyance which can be easily rectified or avoided totally.

Watched a Chicago/Earth Wind and Fire concert on INHD tonight. Totally blown away with the picture. I can't get over how good this set is with HD material. Blu-ray is going to be mind-blowing.

Also watched a high-def 76ers game - no motion blur to my eyes. Just EYE CANDY all night long.

WOW!

colortv

01-24-05, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by nhey
I switched my Comcast 6412 to output 720p and got the double picture. However, I then switched it back to output 1080i and have been able to switch back and forth among input 4 (component) and input 6 (HDMI) with no double picture. We'll see if the problem has been permanently fixed or if it comes back tomorrow night.

I'm now thinking its best to have the 6412 output 1080i which is the same resolution as most material (except ABC and ESPN)- maybe it just passes it through untouched.

Have you compared the 6412's PQ via component rather than your current digital connection? I don't have my DVI-HDMI connector yet, so I'm watching the 6412 through the component cable and it looks great! Unless the DVI-HDMI connection is noticeably better, I may stick with component and eat the cost of the digital cable.

In playing with my Comcast DVR last night I didn't see a menu for setting output resolution. Can you advise where to find that setting? Does the setting only affect the DVI output and not component?

kaduku

01-24-05, 09:51 PM

Anyone,

Talking about letting the 006 do the upconverting, How about my Directv HD Receiver? Should I also set it to 480i or 480p so the 006 can upconvert to 1080p? The PQ I now get on HD channels are already pretty nice.

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 10:29 PM

Penton-Man

01-24-05, 10:30 PM

P.S.-
One hour and a half (best coast time) to "24".

punkzip

01-24-05, 10:41 PM

Ok, I'm in the Seattle area and I got a call saying that I would get delivery of my Qualia tomorrow. The problem is no one is home tomorrow to take delivery, and the company (Sunshine delivery - contracted with NVS I think) did not leave their phone number! I can't believe this, they said they would deliver and did not even ask for a callback to confirm anyone would be home or leave a phone number. This is the first time this has happened with any delivery company, what a joke.

kaduku

01-24-05, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by punkzip
Ok, I'm in the Seattle area and I got a call saying that I would get delivery of my Qualia tomorrow. The problem is no one is home tomorrow to take delivery, and the company (Sunshine delivery - contracted with NVS I think) did not leave their phone number! I can't believe this, they said they would deliver and did not even ask for a callback to confirm anyone would be home or leave a phone number. This is the first time this has happened with any delivery company, what a joke.

punkzip,

That does suck!!!!! Luckily when the delivery guys called my home, my caller id logged their number, so I was able to call them back and set up a time frame. I would call NVC and have them call the local company. Also if this is the way they provide their white glove treatment, I would watch they way they unload and setup your 006. I know you're not willing to wait til Monday, that would be torture!!!!!!

punkzip

01-24-05, 11:09 PM

What is NVCs number?

GBFreek

01-24-05, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by colortv
Here's a little Quicktime movie (16:9 of course) of the delivery of my Qualia 006. Two strong men can handle the beast in spite of the recommendation in the manual.

http://www.kingoftheroad.net/qualia006/colortv-delivery.mov

Wow, thats a classic!!!!:p

You appear more than a bit concerned about the 006 landing facedown on the pavment a few times............yikers!!!!:D

kaduku

01-24-05, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by punkzip
What is NVCs number?

(800) 526-0207 ext 7

www.nvclogistics.com

Dilbert1

01-25-05, 12:23 AM

I think it would be interesting to try Winamp visualizations on the Qualia 006. Winamp has an interesting pattern generator called "Milkdrop". The fractals patterns that are generated should look interesting on a 70 inch monitor and especially if the colors are as intense as you all indicate.

I am probably going to get the Sony stand with the Qualia. Selection of a
DVD player is still up in the air. I was going to get the Denon 3910 but it would not make sense to buy a blue ray later and have to put the Denon in the closet. Perhaps I will buy the Panasonic. What do you think a blue ray player will cost when it becomes available?

Dilbert1

kaduku

01-25-05, 12:35 AM

MotorMouth777

01-25-05, 02:25 AM

<<They have them (Blu-Ray) now on eBay for $3,000 to $4,000.>>

And what exactly would one put in such a prize?

colortv

01-25-05, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by GBFreek
Wow, thats a classic!!!!:p

You appear more than a bit concerned about the 006 landing facedown on the pavment a few times............yikers!!!!:D

Actually, that's not me in the video - it's a good friend who stopped by to see the new TV. I was behind the camera. In the audio track you don't hear, we both gasped when the guys jammed the dolly up that makeshift ramp. But they knew what they were doing - not a hitch!

colortv

01-25-05, 04:40 AM

Originally posted by Dilbert1
I think it would be interesting to try Winamp visualizations on the Qualia 006. Winamp has an interesting pattern generator called "Milkdrop". The fractals patterns that are generated should look interesting on a 70 inch monitor and especially if the colors are as intense as you all indicate.

I am probably going to get the Sony stand with the Qualia. Selection of a
DVD player is still up in the air. I was going to get the Denon 3910 but it would not make sense to buy a blue ray later and have to put the Denon in the closet. Perhaps I will buy the Panasonic. What do you think a blue ray player will cost when it becomes available?

Dilbert1

Before buying any high def DVD player, consider the titles that may become available for it. Folks, I have a number of Betamax films in my collection, not to mention some original Discovision platters! And yes, I own an Edsel.

The fat lady has yet to sing on these format wars. It's gonna get uglier in the next few months. Let's pray for a compromise that will get high defintion DVD off the ground quickly and without a bloody battle that will only harm the cause.

nhey

01-25-05, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by colortv
Have you compared the 6412's PQ via component rather than your current digital connection? I don't have my DVI-HDMI connector yet, so I'm watching the 6412 through the component cable and it looks great! Unless the DVI-HDMI connection is noticeably better, I may stick with component and eat the cost of the digital cable.

In playing with my Comcast DVR last night I didn't see a menu for setting output resolution. Can you advise where to find that setting? Does the setting only affect the DVI output and not component?

I have not noticed a difference between HDMI and component connections with the 6412 feeding the 006. Both are superb. Theoretically, as you know, the DVI-HDMI should look better since there won't be the analog to digital conversion that the analog component connection requires.

To get to the Comcast menu, shut off the 6412 and quickly press the Menu button on the 6412 remote. You'll get a menu. Near the top it will say something like DVI/Component output and you will be able to choose among 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i for both DVI and component. As I stated in my message, I like the look of the HD picture the best when the 6412 outputs 1080i programming with the 1080i setting cause it probably simply passes it through untouched.

Here are STEP BY STEP INSTRUCTIONS I copied once from another thread:

To access this menu, power ON your HD Television, power
OFF the converter box and press the MENU button
on the remote. If you have a DVI cable hooked up (Or DVI to HDMI), you'll see something like:

>TV TYPE 16:9
DVI/YPbPr OUTPUT 1080I
4:3 OVERRIDE 480i

1) You'll notice the arrow to the left of TV TYPE. Start
here as the rest of the menu items are dependent
on this setting. Use the left and right arrow buttons
to select 16:9, 4:3 Letterbox, or 4:3 Pan Scan. This tells the
6412 what type of TV you have and how you prefer to
watch widescreen content.
o Choose 16:9 if you have a widescreen HDTV.
o Choose 4:3 Letterbox if you have a standard TV and
you prefer to watch widescreen programming in the
original aspect ratio. This is similar to watching a
widescreen DVD on a standard screen TV.
o Choose 4:3 Pan Scan if you have a standard TV and
you prefer that widescreen programming be cropped
to fill your screen. Think of it as watching a movie that
has been reformatted to fit your standard screen TV.

2) Next, use the down arrow button to select
DVI/YPbPr OUTPUT. This setting indicates the
picture resolution you prefer when watching high
definition programming.
o The choices are 1080i, 720p, 480p and 480i.
o High Definition programming looks best in 1080i or
720p. The choice really comes down to which format
your HDTV supports and / or which format you think
looks best.

3) Finally, use the down button to select 4:3
OVERRIDE. This setting tells the box to either
pass the Standard Definition programming to your
TV in it's original broadcast format (select either 480i or
480p depending on which setting your TV supports ) or
convert it (select OFF) to the high definition resolution
selected in the DVI/YPbPr OUTPUT setting above.
Press the POWER or MENU button
to exit and save your settings.

If you're interested, there is another Comcast menu you can access. Shut off the 6412 and quickly press the "enter" ("select") key and you'll see another longer menu. Towards the bottom is a choice that is something like status of DVR (don't remember it exactly) with 2 pages, and on the second page you can see the temperature of the 6412, which runs hot. You'll see something like 102 or 108 degrees.

SABAlove

01-25-05, 08:24 AM

ColorTV - I did not order the stand, as we (a) needed something slightly taller due to layout, and (b) don't know what the decorating "theme" of the family room is yet, although it will be a fight to keep my la-z-boy parked right in front of the 006. Sorry I can't help with your "lock down" issue. Does the set appear top-heavy or unstable?

colortv

01-25-05, 10:32 AM

nhey,

Thanks much for sharing that priceless info about the Motorola 6412. Gotta love this forum - we're swapping info we might not get any other way. Heck, I might have been stuck with a spinning color wheel - dodged that bullet!

colortv

01-25-05, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by SABAlove
ColorTV - I did not order the stand, as we (a) needed something slightly taller due to layout, and (b) don't know what the decorating "theme" of the family room is yet, although it will be a fight to keep my la-z-boy parked right in front of the 006. Sorry I can't help with your "lock down" issue. Does the set appear top-heavy or unstable?

SABALove,

The set is not at all top heavy or unstable. But were you in Santa Monica during that nasty quake a few years ago? A friend of mine had a grand piano in his living room - it "hopped" over a foot on the carpet - there were no marks on the carpet showing impressions where the casters had slid the piano - it jumped over a foot through the air! Same could easily happen to the Qualia in a shaker like that which would be disastrous. Something for those of us who live in quake country to think about, and a reason to consider the Sony stand unless you lock your TV to another stand stand in a similar manner - as I intend to do!

DreamCatcher

01-25-05, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by kaduku
Anyone,

Talking about letting the 006 do the upconverting, How about my Directv HD Receiver? Should I also set it to 480i or 480p so the 006 can upconvert to 1080p? The PQ I now get on HD channels are already pretty nice.
Good question.
I've played around with different settings with my DirecTV HD receiver and really can't tell a difference between setting. That's not saying there isn't a difference we just haven't been able to detect any.

dc

ADGrant

01-25-05, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Penton-Man
I already thought of that but
#1. I'm not sure the cable card will work with another set-top box. and

#2. I want the outputs on the back of the Hi-Def box to hook up to a D Theater machine.

Penton

There really isn't a good reason why a cablecard would prevent you also using a settop box. The cableco may tell you otherwise of course, they don't want you to use a cablecard.

Someone has already reported that they can record to HD-DVHS from the internal tuner using the firwire ports.

Tulsa1

01-25-05, 11:16 AM

The ideal thing to do with your Satellite and OTA receivers is set them
for native rate (or pass thru) resolution going to your 006. That way the
signal is only being scaled up once from the broadcaster's transmitted
resolution. Otherwise you will be trying to scale it down within the
receiver and back up by the TV thus introducing more picture degradation.
If your receiver does not offer a native rate option, I would set it at
1080i, which matches most of the broadcasters and the
interlaced equivalent of the 006 native rate.
For example I would leave the HDTivo at 1080i since it does not currently
offer a native rate setting.

Regards,
Martin

Joel

01-25-05, 11:16 AM

Another nice stand that I am considering, the Java series (one is 75" wide and 24" deep for $950) from Sanus systems. www.sanus.com. Has anyone used their stands? No casters, though ...... although I suppose one could put them on oneself.

I would also be interested in how to lock down the 275-lb monster to another stand besides the Sony.

Cheers

NorthJersey

01-25-05, 11:17 AM

Penton, do you have your panny s97 outputting 480p or higher ? Even if you choose 720p or 1080i the 006 will upscale to 1080p. Not sure if you tried the different resolutions on the panny to see what looks better on the 006. The thread on the dvd player says the MB fix was released 1/21 and is available from Panasonic.

As for CC+cable box, I don't see why it WON'T work. it's the same as connecting 2 cable boxes to your tv. For the CC+DVR to your 006, you'll need a splitter (1GHz for digital cable), the outside cable feed into the splitter, then one RF connection directly to the 006 cable in; the other RF from the splitter to the cable in on the DVR. Then run either DVI->HDMI or component from the DVR to the 006. With the cablecard, you'd watch tv using the 006's QAM tuner; while you'd tune in to the proper input on the 006 to watch anything off the DVR box. I bet your cable company just doesn't want to go through the hassle of setting this up, since it's not a standard config by them.

The cable card that goes into the 006 slot looks like a PCMCIA laptop card; the access card that goes into the DVR looks like a credit card.

ADGrant

01-25-05, 11:26 AM

Ken Golden

01-25-05, 11:56 AM

Joel:

I saw the Sanus Java stand at CES. i thought it was very attractive. It doesn't seem as substantial as the Salamander Designs but it definitely seemed well constructed. I've seen it for quite a bit less than $950 through some of the online vendors.

Ken Golden

Penton-Man

01-25-05, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Tulsa1
The ideal thing to do with your Satellite and OTA receivers is set them
for native rate (or pass thru) resolution going to your 006. That way the
signal is only being scaled up once from the broadcaster's transmitted
resolution. Otherwise you will be trying to scale it down within the
receiver and back up by the TV thus introducing more picture degradation.
If your receiver does not offer a native rate option, I would set it at
1080i, which matches most of the broadcasters and the
interlaced equivalent of the 006 native rate.
For example I would leave the HDTivo at 1080i since it does not currently
offer a native rate setting.

Regards,
Martin
Agreed, which is essentially what I did with my two cable company boxes.

The Adelphia moxi doesn't currently have native pass thru so I simply set it on 1080i and never watch any SD with that box.

The Hi-Def 6200 has native pass thru.

Penton-Man

01-25-05, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by NorthJersey
Penton, do you have your panny s97 outputting 480p or higher ? Even if you choose 720p or 1080i the 006 will upscale to 1080p. Not sure if you tried the different resolutions on the panny to see what looks better on the 006. The thread on the dvd player says the MB fix was released 1/21 and is available from Panasonic.

I have the Panny outputting 1080i via the supplied(Yeah!) HDMI cable.

The pic has been so fine that I simply haven't gotten around to trying 480i over component and letting the 006 do all the heavy lifting.

I know about the new firmware for the Panny. Like I said, after watching about 15 DVD's, I never saw any MB which I believe is VERY display dependent and it appears not to be an issue with the 006/Panny player at all.

Nevertheless, I took my player into a local service center yesterday just before the 90-day warranty window, to have access to the new firmware with no money out of my pocket.

Who knows (after Blu-ray) I may eventually use the Panny player with a different TV which would bring out the MB effect to unacceptable levels.

Penton-Man

01-25-05, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by ADGrant
The 006 does not upscale 1080i, it deinterlaces it. If the DVD player had a better scaler but worse deinterlacer than the 006, 1080i would be a good option. This is unlikely to be the case though. The best option for a DVD player is probably either 480p or 480i over HDMI.

I think as previously discussed the best option with this TV would be for the player to pass 480i over HDMI - the fly in the ointment is very few players can do this.

Colortv's Sony player does.... but, then you have to look at the potential for tray locking and disc not playing problems.

Pick your poison.

nhey

01-25-05, 12:22 PM

Penton - yes, but only in the case of a DVD. For broadcast signals native pass through of 1080i or 720p to the 006 is best.

Penton-Man

01-25-05, 12:28 PM

nhey-
But, of course.

Please pass the Grey Poupon, I shall now retire to the home theater room for awhile.

Penton-Man

01-25-05, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by NorthJersey

As for CC+cable box, I don't see why it WON'T work. it's the same as connecting 2 cable boxes to your tv. For the CC+DVR to your 006, you'll need a splitter (1GHz for digital cable), the outside cable feed into the splitter, then one RF connection directly to the 006 cable in; the other RF from the splitter to the cable in on the DVR. Then run either DVI->HDMI or component from the DVR to the 006. With the cablecard, you'd watch tv using the 006's QAM tuner; while you'd tune in to the proper input on the 006 to watch anything off the DVR box. I bet your cable company just doesn't want to go through the hassle of setting this up, since it's not a standard config by them.

The cable card that goes into the 006 slot looks like a PCMCIA laptop card; the access card that goes into the DVR looks like a credit card.
I know, I am now strongly considering the cable card to replace my regular Hi-Def Moto 6200 box.
I foresee lower monthly fees, fewer wires and remotes, and maybe even a slightly sharper picture.

I just wish they had 2-way cable cards NOW. But I suppose since I already rent the Moxi it's a moot point.

punkzip

01-25-05, 02:00 PM

Anyone try a HTPC as a DVD player for this set?

colortv

01-25-05, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by ADGrant
Penton

There really isn't a good reason why a cablecard would prevent you also using a settop box. The cableco may tell you otherwise of course, they don't want you to use a cablecard.

Someone has already reported that they can record to HD-DVHS from the internal tuner using the firwire ports.

That was me - no problem recording to DVHS via Firewire from the Qualia's ATSC tuner. Also no problem to record DVHS from a Comcast/Motorola 6412 DVR via Firewire. I'm archiving this season's "24" to HD DVHS from the DVR. Only problem with recording cable or satellite from the TV is that I assume the TV will have be turned on and you'll tie up the TV's ATSC tuner or cablecard tuner to record to DVHS. For my needs, I like the idea of a separate set top box with a Firewire output.

colortv

01-25-05, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by Joel
Another nice stand that I am considering, the Java series (one is 75" wide and 24" deep for $950) from Sanus systems. www.sanus.com. Has anyone used their stands? No casters, though ...... although I suppose one could put them on oneself.

I would also be interested in how to lock down the 275-lb monster to another stand besides the Sony.

Cheers

The Java stuff looks pretty cool, and attractive prices too!

Joel

01-25-05, 02:12 PM

Ken, thanks. I like the Salamanders too but (1) the Java color works much better for us than the Salamander walnut, and (2) the Java is longer and deeper than the Salamander triples.

Can I correctly characterize the Java color as chocolate brown or is it more black? Thanks

Cheers

P.S.: What online vendors are you referring to that sell it cheaper? Thanks

kaduku

01-25-05, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by MotorMouth777
<<They have them (Blu-Ray) now on eBay for $3,000 to $4,000.>>

And what exactly would one put in such a prize?

Perhaps, another $3,000 to $4,000

mauricef

01-25-05, 02:23 PM

ColorTV, have you tried the iLink standby mode? I got the impression from the manual that this will let you record with the display off.

SRT-10 Viper

01-25-05, 02:31 PM

Just got my 006 this AM... All I can say is you guys were right WOW!!! HDTV is incredible on this... I am watching a DVD now on a Denon 3910 and tried passing 480P vs 480I. The 480i looks better to me less artifacts. Also, Joel I have the Salamander stand. If anyone can point me to "how to upload a picture" I will take a picture of it on the stand. This stand is a little higher than the Sony at 21 1/2 inches. For now, I put the discs, you can buy to move furniture, under the legs so I can slide it easy on the carpet. Special thanks to Colortv, Penton-man and JB007. You input helped me decide on this sight unseen. Back to watching!

kaduku

01-25-05, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by DreamCatcher
Good question.
I've played around with different settings with my DirecTV HD receiver and really can't tell a difference between setting. That's not saying there isn't a difference we just haven't been able to detect any.

dc

I don't know if it's just my eyes, but it actually looks the best at 1080i on the Directv HD receiver, which was the setting the technician left it at.

Scott MS

01-25-05, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by MotorMouth777
<<They have them (Blu-Ray) now on eBay for $3,000 to $4,000.>>

And what exactly would one put in such a prize?

The Sony models on eBay are both players and recorders. The model number is BDZ-S77. Same player in the Sony Style stores in N.Y. and L.V. They have been out in Japan about a year, some people are just trying to make a buck by shipping them across the ocean.

http://www.ecat.sony.co.jp/products/picture/large/BDZ-S77.jpg

kaduku

01-25-05, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by SRT-10 Viper
Just got my 006 this AM... All I can say is you guys were right WOW!!! HDTV is incredible on this... I am watching a DVD now on a Denon 3910 and tried passing 480P vs 480I. The 480i looks better to me less artifacts. Also, Joel I have the Salamander stand. If anyone can point me to "how to upload a picture" I will take a picture of it on the stand. This stand is a little higher than the Sony at 21 1/2 inches. For now, I put the discs, you can buy to move furniture, under the legs so I can slide it easy on the carpet. Special thanks to Colortv, Penton-man and JB007. You input helped me decide on this sight unseen. Back to watching!

SRT,

Congrats on receiving your 006. I will try what you did on your 3910 on mine later. I see that you have the Salamander also. Can't wait to see a pic. When you reply on a post, go to attach file and browse your computer to where the pic is located and just add. Make sure it's not too large a file.

Ken Golden

01-25-05, 02:56 PM

Joel:

Chocolate brown doesn't work for me so I was curious about seeing the Java in person. I had spoken with a Sanus rep on the phone before I went out to CES and she characterized it as black which I thought was odd since I believe they refer to the color as "espresso". I looked at it carefully at CES. At first glance I thought it was black but looking carefully I can definitely see brown in there. I think espresso is probably as good a description as it gets.

I may have screwed up on the pricing. I had seen it listed on www.racksandstands.com but it appears as though I was looking at the smaller unit. The larger one, which is the one I assume you are interested in, is $950 as you mentioned.

Joel I don't know if the size works for you but we did see gorgeous A/V furniture from a company called Mizzico Furniture. Their website is www.mizzico.com. Take a look at their living room credenza. I thought the quality was outstanding - far better than the Salamander Designs. I have absolutely no idea what the pricing is like. Probably in the stratosphere but worth investigating. Very substantial stuff.

Ken Golden

nhey

01-25-05, 03:03 PM

Be careful about buying a tall stand. See posts over the last couple pages.

rogo

01-25-05, 03:10 PM

"The Sony models on eBay are both players and recorders."

But are very unlikely to ever played pre-recorded BluRay discs.

DreamCatcher

01-25-05, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by SRT-10 Viper
Just got my 006 this AM... All I can say is you guys were right WOW!!! HDTV is incredible on this... I am watching a DVD now on a Denon 3910 and tried passing 480P vs 480I. The 480i looks better to me less artifacts. Also, Joel I have the Salamander stand. If anyone can point me to "how to upload a picture" I will take a picture of it on the stand. This stand is a little higher than the Sony at 21 1/2 inches. For now, I put the discs, you can buy to move furniture, under the legs so I can slide it easy on the carpet. Special thanks to Colortv, Penton-man and JB007. You input helped me decide on this sight unseen. Back to watching!
You should be able to post a picture from your computer by using the browse button and attaching the file.
I assume your using component cable hookup from your 3910 to your 006?
Because I don't think the 3910 will let you pass 480i through HDMI, for some reason.:(
I've found the Pioneer 59AVi will pass 480i through HDMI and this seems to work best (letting the 006 do it's 1080p thing).... for me.

dc

Joel

01-25-05, 03:18 PM

Ken: very nice. $2200 with glass doors. It's not clear from the Mizzico site how much weight it will sustain, etc. But thanks for the tip.

NHey, I didn't see a lot of detail on the height in the last few pp. I don't really like the Sony stand at all, and I have seen it in person. So that's not a good option for us. Plus, I have some sizeable ottomans and coffee table between the set and the sofa. 16" stand height seems just too small for me; I would prefer something 20-36" off the floor. How many inches does the screen start from the pedestal base? I don't mind looking up a little bit.

Cheers

DreamCatcher

01-25-05, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by Joel
Ken: very nice. $2200 with glass doors. It's not clear from the Mizzico site how much weight it will sustain, etc. But thanks for the tip.

NHey, I didn't see a lot of detail on the height in the last few pp. I don't really like the Sony stand at all, and I have seen it in person. So that's not a good option for us. Plus, I have some sizeable ottomans and coffee table between the set and the sofa. 16" stand height seems just too small for me; I would prefer something 20-36" off the floor. How many inches does the screen start from the pedestal base? I don't mind looking up a little bit.

Cheers
10 1/2 "..... I also recommend keeping the 006 as low as possible.

dc

kaduku

01-25-05, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by DreamCatcher
I assume your using component cable hookup from your 3910 to your 006?
Because I don't think the 3910 will let you pass 480i through HDMI, for some reason.:(
I've found the Pioneer 59AVi will pass 480i through HDMI and this seems to work best (letting the 006 do it's 1080p thing).... for me.

dc

DreamCatcher,
I haven't been able to do anything with my Denon 3910 because I have been waiting for my toslink switcher, but is it true that I can't pass 480i through HDMI, and would have to go the component route, especially having spent some big bucks on these HDMI cables.

Joel

01-25-05, 03:43 PM

DreamCatcher, thanks. That's more than I thought.

Cheers

Ken Golden

01-25-05, 04:05 PM

Joel:

I don't know how much weight it will sustain but to our eyes it looked like a substantial piece of honest to God furniture. Since they are designing it specifically for home theater use I would assume it will support a Qualia 006. Worth asking them.

Ken Golden

colortv

01-25-05, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by mauricef
ColorTV, have you tried the iLink standby mode? I got the impression from the manual that this will let you record with the display off.

Yes, I believe that mode allows the TV to act as an iLink relay, so if your STB is connected to the TV via iLink/Firewire and the TV is turned off, the iLink signal will pass through the TV to another iLink device, such as a DVHS machine or DVR connected to one of the TV's other iLink ports.

My concern is if there is a cablecard in the TV and the TV's power is off, how could one select the cablecard's cable channel and pass it onto a DVHS machine or external DVR via iLink for recording?

colortv

01-25-05, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by SRT-10 Viper
Just got my 006 this AM... All I can say is you guys were right WOW!!! Special thanks to Colortv, Penton-man and JB007. You input helped me decide on this sight unseen. Back to watching!

I would not give such a glowing review if I didn't think this TV is the winner you now know it is. Most folks aren't going to have a chance to see SXRD in a showroom near term, so we need to depend on each other to lay it out honestly. My thanks to jb007 for his initial review. I placed my order sight unseen based on what he said.

Watched "24" last night with good friends - everyone was just blown away. The SXRD experience is worth the steep admission price!

colortv

01-25-05, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by Joel
16" stand height seems just too small for me; I would prefer something 20-36" off the floor. How many inches does the screen start from the pedestal base? I don't mind looking up a little bit.

Although my Chicane stand is taller than the Sony stand and forces a slight upward look, it's under the threshold of annoying and no worse than where I sit at movie theaters. No neck cramps, and nary a complaint from the stream of lookie-loos that have dropped by my house to see this Sony marvel. Faced with the choice again, I'd pick the Chicane in a heartbeat to fit my home's decor. Nonetheless, the Sony stand is likely to give a dead center eyeline in many home theaters.

punkzip

01-25-05, 04:50 PM

Anyone try a HTPC as the DVD player for this set?

jp2

01-25-05, 05:39 PM

punkzip,
I am using my htpc mainly to play ripped dvds from another server. It works very nicely via 1080i into the hdmi ports on the tv. I am not having much success getting 1080/24PsF to sync though. The pq when using a htpc is much better than my yamaha s2300 (via component). I am using roxio's dvdmax as a front end and have nvidia as the decoder and graphics card. I am looking into theatertek as a replacement front end but I'm not sure how much of an improvement this will be. The roxio was free with some device that I got a while ago and it works very good. It also passes dd and dts which wmp and other front ends have given me problems. I'm not sure what to do about the 1080/24PsF issue. I've run out of things to try and nvidia doesn't support any issues other the their decoder. It may be that the 006 doesn't want to sync with that setting although the 004 seems to take it with no problem.
brgds,
jp

SRT-10 Viper

01-25-05, 06:29 PM

I was able to get my Denon 3910 to work over HDMI at 480i.

Here is a picture of my set up / stand. The picture was taken with a flash so the screen doesn't look as good... The orange discs under the legs will go once I have the TV set up the way I like it.

Great TV!

kaduku

01-25-05, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by SRT-10 Viper
I was able to get my Denon 3910 to work over HDMI at 480i.

Here is a picture of my set up / stand. The picture was taken with a flash so the screen doesn't look as good... The orange discs under the legs will go once I have the TV set up the way I like it.

Great TV!

SRT,

Did you just simply set it to 480i or is there other things to do? How was the PQ compared to 1080i?

The stand looks great. I especially like the color tone which compliments your sound system? I've never seen that style of Salamander before.

SRT-10 Viper

01-25-05, 06:38 PM

Here is a picture of the screen with HDTV cable show.

SRT-10 Viper

01-25-05, 06:41 PM

Spam;

I've only tried 480p and 480I... I liked 480i better (less artifacts). I'll try higher settings later... My wife is watching news on it right now.

DreamCatcher

01-25-05, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by SRT-10 Viper
Spam;

I've only tried 480p and 480I... I liked 480i better (less artifacts). I'll try higher settings later... My wife is watching news on it right now.
Nice speakers also.... are those the B&W N802's?
I guess you're using phantom center?

dc

colortv

01-25-05, 07:06 PM

Penton-Man

01-25-05, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by SRT-10 Viper
Just got my 006 this AM... All I can say is you guys were right WOW!!! HDTV is incredible on this... I am watching a DVD now on a Denon 3910 and tried passing 480P vs 480I. The 480i looks better to me less artifacts. Also, Joel I have the Salamander stand. If anyone can point me to "how to upload a picture" I will take a picture of it on the stand. This stand is a little higher than the Sony at 21 1/2 inches. For now, I put the discs, you can buy to move furniture, under the legs so I can slide it easy on the carpet. Special thanks to Colortv, Penton-man and JB007. You input helped me decide on this sight unseen. Back to watching!

Congrats on taking delivery of the 006!
Yet another happy owner!

P.S.- I'm not surprised that passing 480i looks better than 480p.

Penton-Man

01-25-05, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by rogo
"The Sony models on eBay are both players and recorders."

But are very unlikely to ever played pre-recorded BluRay discs.

Well I'm happy that you're staying in touch.:)

What do you think Rogo...when Sony starts marketing their version of Blu-Ray , MSRP a tad over 2K and Panny's version a tad under 2K?

Penton-Man

01-25-05, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by nhey
Be careful about buying a tall stand. See posts over the last couple pages.
I agree with nhey, ESPECIALLY if your seating arrangement is low to the ground (as ours is....to allow the boss of the house, our one remaining dog - a Pomeranian - to be able to jump up with a flying leap and cuddle with mama)---

ALSO - ESPECIALLY if you are sitting as close as 9 ft. to the TV as we are.
Damn this is a great TV !

I can sit as close as nine feet away!!!!! Are you listening Owen!

manfredc

01-25-05, 07:51 PM

I custom ordered the Salamander tripplett in black with extra shelf and one roll-out shelf for turntable. Could not use the Sony stand for my 12" high center speaker (B&W). Did not get the doors, only the side panels and castors.

Penton-Man

01-25-05, 08:22 PM

Yep,
That center speaker would be a deal breaker for the Sony stand.
Mine luckily fit in with a few inches to spare.

SRT-10 Viper

01-25-05, 09:37 PM

Dreamcatcher and Colortv;
The speakers are B&W Nautilus 802s... For the center speaker I had to go with the HTM7 to fit into the stand... Sound is great... Pictue is better : )

Penton-Man

01-25-05, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by mark haflich
The Sony stores are selling all that Sony can make.
Makes my purchase even sweeeeeter !:)

KE McFeely

01-25-05, 10:17 PM

Viper,

Do you actually use the TV speakers for anything (I saw they were attached in your first picture)? I guess I am just jealous...I have DM303s and an LCR 3 center, but I can't imagine using my TV's speakers for anything. Maybe if my wife lets me spend $13K on this TV, I will have to sell my speakers, my receiver, a kidney...

kaduku

01-25-05, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by KE McFeely
Viper,

Do you actually use the TV speakers for anything (I saw they were attached in your first picture)? I guess I am just jealous...I have DM303s and an LCR 3 center, but I can't imagine using my TV's speakers for anything. Maybe if my wife lets me spend $13K on this TV, I will have to sell my speakers, my receiver, a kidney...

I am also debating if I should take off the tv speakers and just use the Bose for everything. I am just worried that constant use of the Bose might wear it down.

kaduku

01-25-05, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by mark haflich
If you want one of these right away, you better resign yourself to buying it from one of the Sony owned Sony stores and paying full list plus local sales tax. The Sony stores are selling all that Sony can make. Looks like even the select Qualia dealers won't get any until March. What you say your dealer said he will have them by Feb 10? Ask him to check again with Sony.

This is why I decided to make my move. I was afraid that when it was obvious that the price of the 006 was not going down right away, that I would have to wait for the next batch that may take awhile, or even worse, be put on a waiting list!

DreamCatcher

01-26-05, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by kaduku
I am also debating if I should take off the tv speakers and just use the Bose for everything. I am just worried that constant use of the Bose might wear it down.
Might be a good thing;)

dc

MotorMouth777

01-26-05, 02:43 AM

My 006 fund took a $2,000 hit as I succumbed to an impulse plasma purchase at Costco. Got a 42 inch Visio to replace my 40 inch NTSC Mitsu CRT in my sitting room. This is the first HDTV I have had and must say that I am now a true believer and must have the 006 to replace my 60 inch downstairs.

I love having HD upstairs for late night but may have to sell it because all it has done is make me conclude that I DO need the 006 for the main room. The Visio is not the best plasma but at $2k it is a solid performer for a second unit and I can't get over how much more punch the colors have on this than on my Mitsu's. If what you guys are saying about the 006 colors and overall presentation then I will truly be in the schnizzle............

Is Sony still running that financing deal as this would get me over this last $4k problem (now $6k after Visio) that I got.

Thx you guys have been tons of help.

punkzip

01-26-05, 02:51 AM

I have an old Sony NS-900V DVD - this does not have HDMI/DVI output and has a progressive switch so I think it can do 480i also. Is it worth getting a new player with HDMI/DVI output? What is the picutre quality difference compared to component?

bernster2001

01-26-05, 07:47 AM

Thanks to all those who attended CEDIA and reported on 006. At that time I started thinking this may be my next purchase. Thanks to all the pioneers on this thread for sharing their observations. Thanks most to AVS Forum because without this forum I would most likely not have bought the best RPTV ever made.

The 006 continues to amaze and dazzle with its perfect HD pq. I don't think it gets any better than this. The only downside (if you can call it that) is that now the shortcomings in my other equipment have become obvious and am looking to make changes in them.

Bernie

nhey

01-26-05, 08:14 AM

Bernster -

I agree. You are EXACTLY, 100% correct.

SRT-10 Viper

01-26-05, 08:42 AM

KE McFeely

I use the TV speakers for watching regular TV and will use the speakers for HD movies, sports, DVDs etc.... Also, It is easier for my wife who doesn't want to deal with the stereo to just turn the TV on and watch.

jp2

01-26-05, 09:01 AM

I was finally able to do a little testing and measurement with the 006 last night. Very good news! The 006 on it's warm setting tracked better than anything I've seen. That includes the toshiba lcos and sharp 45" lcd (and several other misc. tvs.) Both of those sets being 1080p and the toshiba being the best before I measured the 006. I will post some of the graphs later today. The contrast (full on/off not ansi) also measured very high...between 2100:1 to over 3000:1. I did not have enough time to do as much testing as I would have liked. I need to take these measurements in a dark environment and just ran out of time. I tried tweaking the gain and bias settings but their default values and the warm setting had it tracking the best. I would be very curious to see what changes any ISF person could do to this set to make it better. The geometry is perfect as is the color. I modified a couple of the standard settings that anyone can do with avia or dve. I will also post those setting later today. Usually you need to hire an ISF person to help with the grayscale and possibly chromacity coordinates but at least on my set, the default settings (gains and bias) were the best. BTW, I took most of these measurements using my htpc and a colorfacts 6000 analyzer through the hdmi port on the 006.
brgds,
jp

nhey

01-26-05, 09:32 AM

JP2- after having owned the set for about 5 days, I have to agree that just using my eyeballs the color temp seemed to look just about perfect on the warm setting, and everything else looked to be almost spot on (with HD and DVD source material).

Still will probably have my calibration guy look at it on the 23rd of Feb. He's the type who will charge nothing or very little (just for his travel time) if he has no work/ or very little work, to do, which I suspect will be the case.

For what its worth, and if you want to believe it, my cierge in the NY store told me the sets are carefully set at the factory in Japan and no calibration is necessary. Of course I didn't believe him, but my own eyes, and your measurements seem to confirm that.

Most Sony's are pretty close to 6500 K with their warm setting but can be improved. This one sounds like is very close to 6500 K right out of the box with little room for improvement.

Maybe its true that in some cases you DO get what you pay for.

It's also interesting that Sony still puts these sets in VIVID mode when delivered, as they do with all their sets to attract eyeballs on the showroom floor. You'd think with this top-of-the-line set they'd not do that, but, as always, the dollar rules.

Am interested in what you found to be the best setting for "picture" aka contrast. Most folks here have been setting it almost all the way to the right at a setting of 58. Also, does the "sharpness" control introduce the ringing/halo effect?

jp2

01-26-05, 09:53 AM

nhey,
I still think it would be good for you to have you ISF person take a look at your set. Even if the set doesn't need much adjustment from it's default values, this set does have a lot of knobs that you can tweak. I would spend the time with your ISF person and have him educate you on what each knob does to your set in your environment. I may even have one of the local calibrators work on my set just for the learning experience. I'll let you know what the picture settings and any effect the sharpness adjustment had when I get a chance to get the files later today.
brgds,
jp

Zechman

01-26-05, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by mark haflich
If you want one of these right away, you better resign yourself to buying it from one of the Sony owned Sony stores and paying full list plus local sales tax. The Sony stores are selling all that Sony can make. Looks like even the select Qualia dealers won't get any until March. What you say your dealer said he will have them by Feb 10? Ask him to check again with Sony.

Hmm, I guess the real question is: does "all that Sony can make" equate to "the first production run of 300 flown over from Japan" (where they apparently burned $900,000 worth of jet fuel :D ) and are all 300 spoken-for already?

It would make sense that we have to wait until the next batch arrives by slow boat.

--Dwayne

nhey

01-26-05, 10:45 AM

JP2- did you make the gray scale adjustments in the user menu or the service menu?

Also, I'm sending you a PM.

thestewman

01-26-05, 11:10 AM

Has there been any information posted by Sony or on the forum on the life of the bulb ?

And has anyone any information on the bulb life at the two different settings?

Stew

jp2

01-26-05, 11:18 AM

nhey,
The gains and bias settings are user accessable via the white balance settings within the advanced menu. It was nice to not have to go into any cryptic sm settings. I also replied to your pm.
brgds,
jp

kaduku

01-26-05, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by thestewman
Has there been any information posted by Sony or on the forum on the life of the bulb ?

And has anyone any information on the bulb life at the two different settings?

Stew

The only thing I ever heard was from a Qualia staff in LV, who told me that based on their experience with the 004, which I assume has the same type bulb, it is expected to burn out in two to three years under normal usage.

kaduku

01-26-05, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by SRT-10 Viper
KE McFeely

I use the TV speakers for watching regular TV and will use the speakers for HD movies, sports, DVDs etc.... Also, It is easier for my wife who doesn't want to deal with the stereo to just turn the TV on and watch.

Oh yeah, I forgot about her (my wife). I guess the speakers stay on too!

nhey

01-26-05, 11:59 AM

Bulb life - I was told 2000 to 2500 hours by the cierge in NY who contacted the Sony Qualia folks in California. Don't believe 2 to 3 years, unless you watch the set only 1-2 hours a day. That's what they base their "estimates" on.

kaduku

01-26-05, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by nhey
Bulb life - I was told 2000 to 2500 hours by the cierge in NY who contacted the Sony Qualia folks in California. Don't believe 2 to 3 years, unless you watch the set only 1-2 hours a day. That's what they base their "estimates" on.

How about 6-7 hours. I just can't get enough of this tv!!!!!

mpsan

01-26-05, 12:48 PM

So, will there be any place to see these, other than NYC or Las Vegas? I hope they plan to let other Sony Dealers sell them.

kaduku

01-26-05, 01:05 PM

Here's my pic of my 006 on the triple Salamander. I know, too many remotes.

nhey

01-26-05, 01:16 PM

Kaduku,

VERY NICE!!

Suggest you consider a 6500K bulb 'bias' light behind the 006 rather than a lamp right next to it.

kaduku

01-26-05, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by nhey
Kaduku,

VERY NICE!!

Suggest you consider a 6500K bulb 'bias' light behind the 006 rather than a lamp right next to it.

nhey,
Can you elaborate more on this?

Tulsa1

01-26-05, 01:36 PM

Here is some good discussion on bias lighting
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=451527&highlight=bias+lighting

h2osports

01-26-05, 01:44 PM

I bought one of these several years ago to use with my direct-view CRT.

(Now I just need a Qualia 006 to go with it!)

Link: http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm

Be skiing ya,

DSG

kaduku

01-26-05, 02:12 PM

Thanks Tulsa and h20sports,

Very informative stuff. Has any 006 owners done this or is thinking about it? If so, send some pictures.

nhey

01-26-05, 02:24 PM

Kaduku -
I've done that with my 006 with the Cinemaquest Ideal Lume bias light. You can attach the Cinemaquest bias light directly to the back of the 006 using velcro (get the large pieces from Home Depot). The light plugs into a socket, and there is a small RF remote that comes with it that allows you to turn on and off the light even though there's no direct line of sight (another remote! - but this is a real small one). It will provide 6500K lighting behind the TV. You have a very large room so it won't provide much light for the room (no one would be able to read in that room while you are watching the set if you only have this bias light on behind the TV), but it is enough light to reduce eye strain and allow you to walk around the room.

You should not have any regular lights to the side or in front of the TV when you watch what you consider to be "important" stuff, where you want optimal picture quality.

I only use the bias light when I'm watching DVDs or HD stuff where I want to have the optimal picture quality.

kaduku

01-26-05, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by nhey
Kaduku -

I only use the bias light when I'm watching DVDs or HD stuff where I want to have the optimal picture quality.

nhey,

How many of these lights do you have and in what exact location behind the 006?

SABAlove

01-26-05, 04:00 PM

The eagle has landed. Currently perched on a pair of black IKEA cabinets. The wife actually says she likes the way it all looks. I am running home immediately to check it out. *excitement*

h2osports

01-26-05, 04:15 PM

Although I chose to purchase a ready-made unit from CinemaQuest (see above post), here's a link to an article that appeared in Home Theater Magazine several years ago. It details how to make your own bias light.

Link: http://www.hometheatermag.com/bootcamp/49/index.html

Be skiing ya,

DSG

Sorry if I'm going OT!

KE McFeely

01-26-05, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by kaduku
Oh yeah, I forgot about her (my wife). I guess the speakers stay on too!

It took a little while, but I "trained" my wife to use the RC3200 remote (and the macros I programmed on it) that came with my receiver...it only took a couple of days for her to get used to the Harmony 680 I got a before Xmas. One remote with activities...sweetness.

BTW

How is the discrete code support for the 006? Does anyone have a Harmony remote? And, does Logitech have the codes in their database for this bad boy yet?

wojtek

01-26-05, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by kaduku
Here's my pic of my 006 on the triple Salamander. I know, too many remotes.

Wow this thing is big!!!

You guys have real cinemas at home. I'm envious.

Penton-Man

01-26-05, 04:36 PM

You should see it at 9 ft. -eyeball to screen!

nhey

01-26-05, 04:41 PM

Kaduku - I have just one of the bias lights velcroed directly to the back of the 006 ( it sits directly on the back of the set about 3/4 of the way down). You could attach the light to a wall if you preferred - it comes with mounting screws. You only need one light to give a little illumination to the area around the set.

There are discrete codes for the Harmony. I think it was JB007 who mentioned he has already programmed his Harmony with the codes. Do a search for "harmony' in this thread to find the posts about that.

The Sony codes for the 006 are the standard Sony remote codes. For those with a Home Theater Master remote, you can get the codes from any recent Sony TV. The discrete code for inputs 1 - 7 are readily available in the HTM database if you have the HTM 700 or 800. For the "TV" input you can learn the Channel up (or Channel down) from the Sony remote that comes with the 006, and that will take you to the TV input.

brt3

01-26-05, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by mpsan
So, will there be any place to see these, other than NYC or Las Vegas? I hope they plan to let other Sony Dealers sell them.

I just got off the phone with Qualia and they told me they have a brand new list that shows dealers who will be selling the Qualia 006. In my case I live about 30 minutes north of the Golden Gate Bridge; the dealers nearest me were:

Palo Alto: Scenic Systems
Sacramento: Paradigm
San Francisco: Performance Audio

BTW, the Qualia rep read the list to me over the phone; there must have been around 20+ dealers in California; about 3/4 of that list was in SoCal. When I called the store nearest me they could not give me a stocking date; I'd guess we're 2-3 months away from having "regular" dealers with actual product...

mpsan

01-26-05, 05:16 PM

Great...I may call. I am in Portland, OR. I sure wish they did not have speakers and stuff. May be a way Sony could have gotten the price down. Seems that a $10K+ set will be used with a highend surround system....mine would be if I go that route...or try one of the Samsungs that were announced at the CES for 1/2 the price. Still, I would like to see one as we are not afraid to pay for value.

P.S. The online brochure did not seem to show HDMI, I assume it has it.

Originally posted by brt3
I just got off the phone with Qualia and they told me they have a brand new list that shows dealers who will be selling the Qualia 006. In my case I live about 30 minutes north of the Golden Gate Bridge; the dealers nearest me were:

Palo Alto: Scenic Systems
Sacramento: Paradigm
San Francisco: Performance Audio

BTW, the Qualia rep read the list to me over the phone; there must have been around 20+ dealers in California; about 3/4 of that list was in SoCal. When I called the store nearest me they could not give me a stocking date; I'd guess we're 2-3 months away from having "regular" dealers with actual product...

ADGrant

01-26-05, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by SRT-10 Viper
KE McFeely

I use the TV speakers for watching regular TV and will use the speakers for HD movies, sports, DVDs etc.... Also, It is easier for my wife who doesn't want to deal with the stereo to just turn the TV on and watch.

You could just get a better remote like a Harmony or (if you like to tinker), a pronto. Your wife would not then have to worry about where the sound was coming from.

mpsan

01-26-05, 06:05 PM

I have a good remote as well, but this set would be in a room we only use for DVD's etc.

Originally posted by ADGrant
You could just get a better remote like a Harmony or (if you like to tinker), a pronto. Your wife would not then have to worry about where the sound was coming from.

jp2

01-26-05, 06:09 PM

I will attached a few of the charts recorded with the 006 on it's warm setting.
enjoy!

wojtek

01-26-05, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by Penton-Man
You should see it at 9 ft. -eyeball to screen!

I know, Penton-Man.

This thing rivals Front Projection, without the attendant FP problems such as projector placement, unsightly screen, etc. Which are all well and good in a dedicated HT room, but not in the living room.

Anyhow, since I live in a condo this monster is not for me. I would be jumping all over a 50-52" SXRD RPTV, however, based on these awesome threads and no less awesome pics.

jp2

01-26-05, 06:14 PM

chart #2

jp2

01-26-05, 06:16 PM

chart #3

jp2

01-26-05, 06:17 PM

chart #4

jp2

01-26-05, 06:18 PM

chart #5

kaduku

01-26-05, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by nhey
Kaduku - I have just one of the bias lights velcroed directly to the back of the 006 ( it sits directly on the back of the set about 3/4 of the way down). You could attach the light to a wall if you preferred - it comes with mounting screws. You only need one light to give a little illumination to the area around the set.

nhey,
Just to confirm, you have a standard one with or without a filter. How about a pic! Also my walls are colored java, as you can see my pic. Would I need a filter?

mpsan

01-26-05, 06:43 PM

Yes, I called and they do list a few in the area. It seems that a good bet is that the high end stores that sell Sony now will get them if they wish. It may take a few months, however and at $13,000 I don't expect many to be in stock. :D

Originally posted by mpsan
Great...I may call. I am in Portland, OR. I sure wish they did not have speakers and stuff. May be a way Sony could have gotten the price down. Seems that a $10K+ set will be used with a highend surround system....mine would be if I go that route...or try one of the Samsungs that were announced at the CES for 1/2 the price. Still, I would like to see one as we are not afraid to pay for value.

P.S. The online brochure did not seem to show HDMI, I assume it has it.

kaduku

01-26-05, 06:49 PM

jp2,

I have know idea what those graphs translate to, but I assume they mean good things about the 006!!!!!

jp2

01-26-05, 07:11 PM

kaduku,
Most of the charts are for measuring how well the grayscale tracks. This is an important step in getting accurate colors with most of the other settings. The goal of most sets is to track to certain standards that most of the industry tries to adhere to. That is usually appox. 6500K(K=Kelvin). You want your tv to track to that "temperature" from 0 to 100. 0 being black and 100 being white. On the warm setting, the 006 tracks (measures) very close to 6500K throughout most of the range. I also included some other charts that break it down into the RGB individual settings. Most of the other tvs that I have measured vary a lot at some point between 0 and 100. What all of this means in simple terms is that, at least on the 006 that I measured, the grayscale is very accuate (flat) which in turn suggests that the colors should be very accurate. I wonder why the 006 hasn't wound up in any reviewer's hands yet. I remember that Gary Merson(?) from TPV magazine had very early looks at both the original toshiba lcos and the unreleased 2nd generation of the same set. I would be very interested in their thoughts on this set also.
brgds,
jp

John Mason

01-26-05, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by jp2
I remember that Gary Merson(?) from TPV magazine had very early looks at both the original toshiba lcos and the unreleased 2nd generation of the same set. I would be very interested in their thoughts on this set also.

Also recall his resolution measurements on the Toshiba LCoS, which included using HDNet via DirecTV. Wonder if any 006 owners plan similar HDNet measurments? Back then believe Merson didn't quite get full horizontal 1080i rez from D*, which since has apparently applied more filtering. But, as a test of whether the 006 is not using 540p bobbing of 1080i for deinterlace, perhaps either a cable or D* delivered Tuesday 8 am Eastern HDNet test patterns would pin this down. Supposedly the horizontally oriented wedges would resolve at nearly 1080 lines. To measure horizontal rez I multiply the number on vertical wedges where lines just merge by 100, then 1.78. (Example, 7.5 X 100 X 1.78 = 1335 lines horizontal resolution, 16:9 picture width.) -- John

3deye

01-26-05, 07:40 PM

Hey, I just put an order/deposit in for the Q006 with the Performance Audio folks in SF. I really wanted a local dealer who I could go to in case of problems.

So... I just happen to know someone who is in the LCoS manufacturing business, and when I told him that I was going to be purchasing an 006 this is the msg he sent back. (Note in advance... his comment about LC material lifespan is worth noting, but the guy at PA in SF told me that the LC panels were rated for 60k/hours halflife, which at my rate of viewing would last 30 years. So I'm not too worried about that.)

Here goes, fwiw:

-------begin quote

TVs. i gather you must be a very discerning videophile if you are seriously thinking about the Sony Qualia 006. at 1920x1080 it has got serious resolution. The liquid crystal mode is a vertically aligned nematic (VAN) which should give it very good contrast - on par with DLP or probably even higher. However, VAN LC hasn't yet been delivered in volume. One of the struggles with it has been that VAN generally means a slow switching response rate - so i'd carefully evaluate the picture with some fast moving video (film with serious action scenes or use a gaming console).

Also, sony's LCOS design has an analog drive scheme into it's pixels. this means very precise analog control & calibration is required. One way to check on the quality of this is to look at its image uniformity - load an all white or all black image onto the screen and see how "even" the image is corner to corner. if it's uneven then it's a safe bet that it will be uneven with a video or still image (although not as easy to discern).

A final concern with the qualia would be around life-time. currently sony's technology is only produced for very low volume, high price front projectors. these types of applications usually have few "on" hours to deliver. A RPTV on the other hand must be prepared to stay on day & night in many usage scenarios. The liquid crystal material can deteriorate under intense & sustained light and sony should specify what the guaranteed lifetime of it's chip will be (in hours, and at what permissable degradation i.e. loss of contrast over those hours). This is important because it is very likely that the lcos chips are not field or even service office replaceable (however, the illumination light source
(bulb) will likely be, so that is not as much an issue).

On the other hand, if they show good performance on the issues above, and you will use the TV as a theater
type unit (relatively few hours of operation) then I'd say you are making a very discerning choice.

As you already figured out, i'd definitely would stay away from the TI "1080" product as it doesn't have
real 1080 resolution but uses pixel wobbulation (think of it as multiplexed pixesls) to gain both smaller
chip size (reduced cost) and "higher" resolution. It's an ok method for video, but it will show artifacts on still images with fine resolution (such as text or even high resolution still images).

-------end quote

So, I don't think that the lifetime issue is real, and from what y'all have said about fast moving video, it doesn't have any problems with that either. It sounds like an almost perfect unit! (I met with the furniture builder today about the stand that we're building for it and it'll be done in March sometime.) Can't wait...

kaduku

01-26-05, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by 3deye
Hey, I just put an order/deposit in for the Q006 with the Performance Audio folks in SF. I really wanted a local dealer who I could go to in case of problems.

G,
Congrats on your order. You just couldn't wait also huh!!!!!!!! Anyway, looks like your all set on that stand. Do you still need those measurements? Sorry, I kinda forgot.

Penton-Man

01-26-05, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by John Mason
But, as a test of whether the 006 is not using 540p bobbing of 1080i for deinterlace, perhaps either a cable or D* delivered Tuesday 8 am Eastern HDNet test patterns would pin this down.-- John

Thanks John.
I hope somebody's listening!

rebo77

01-26-05, 08:24 PM

is the super bowl going to be in 720 or 1080 ?
go birds!!:D

Penton-Man

01-26-05, 08:45 PM

720p
Good luck …I just read that Brady had a 103 degree temp the night before the Pittsburgh game and he annihilated the Steelers.

I'm still for Philly though, as I lived there for four years.

nhey

01-26-05, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by kaduku
nhey,
Just to confirm, you have a standard one with or without a filter. How about a pic! Also my walls are colored java, as you can see my pic. Would I need a filter?

I have a standard one. I'm not sure about the need, or lack thereof, for a filter. Will try to post a picture in a day or two.

Penton-Man

01-26-05, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by SABAlove
The eagle has landed. Currently perched on a pair of black IKEA cabinets. The wife actually says she likes the way it all looks. I am running home immediately to check it out. *excitement*
Congrats SABAlove!
Geez, I imagine Cali is the leading the way in regards to ownership of the Qualia bird.

Penton-Man

01-26-05, 09:26 PM

david-
Congradulations to you also on your 006 purchase.
Were you able to do any fine dining while in Vegas?

Check you PM for audio suggestion.

nhey

01-26-05, 09:32 PM

Does it really matter if the 006 'bobs' to create 1080p? I think it gets to a point where it becomes ridiculous looking for "faults" that are not visible to 99% of viewers when watching program material. Just "sit back and enjoy" without all this concern over perfection. There will always be trade offs with every technology.

Would any owner of this set "send it back" (I know that's not possible) if they found out it 'bobs'??? NO.

No one who owns this set can deny the quality of its picture "out of the box". Nothing I've seen in an RPTV comes even remotely close. The detail on DVDs is even amazing. I've set my Kenwood Soverign to output 480i (instead of 480p) over component to allow the 006 to do its thing, and I'm seeing details on DVDs I've never seen before. Sometimes its simply amazing, and I can't believe its only 480i source material.

Blu-Ray/HD-DVD will be incredible.

Penton-Man

01-26-05, 10:26 PM

No, it doesn’t matter because the picture is extraordinary!

It is simply very interesting from a technological point of view as this was an unresolved issue from the old Sony thread that caused a lot of consternation among potential Qualia 006 owners – in fact at that time, I personally considered it to be a FAR greater detriment to my purchase than the lack of 1080p input.

The same…. as it is interesting to debate over the need for bias lighting vs. tracking lights behind a TV which can not only function as backlighting for a display but also accentuate something one has hung on the wall.

“Would any owner of this set "send it back" (I know that's not possible) if they found out it 'bobs'??? NO.”

Definitely not. In fact, I would have been the first person in the U.S. to “take delivery” of this 006 (which I absolutely love) if it had not been for some ….shall we say snafu.

Penton-Man

01-26-05, 10:27 PM

"I've set my Kenwood Soverign to output 480i (instead of 480p)"

Ah, and now... exactly why did you do that?

jb007

01-26-05, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by Penton-Man
In fact, I would have been the first person in the U.S. to “take delivery” of this 006 (which I absolutely love) if it had not been for some ….shall we say snafu.

Penton-Man, you're not referring to me, are you ;)

Penton-Man

01-26-05, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by jb007
Penton-Man, you're not referring to me, are you ;)
But of course,
but out of respect, I care not to elaborate.:)

kaduku

01-26-05, 10:51 PM

Anyone with experience on a Denon 3910. I could only set it to 480p/480i only. How can I set it to either 480p or 480i only.

colortv

01-26-05, 11:37 PM

Thanks for the info on bias lighting. I ordered the Ideal-Lume - the wall behind my 006 is perfect for it. Once again, this forum continues to provide valuable advice - thanks!

It was a very pleasant surprise to see the TV show that employs me on the 006 when it aired on Tuesday night. Geez, even at the ABC broadcast rez of 720p, the show looks better than on our pro (expensive) 1080p/24 studio CRT's! After telling the bigwigs at work how good their show looks on this amazing TV, I'm apparently hosting a bunch of them to come over and watch it off the DVR. This TV sells itself - how could anyone NOT want one after seeing the incredible images? I repeat .. the Qualia 006 has NO competition!

kaduku

01-26-05, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by colortv
Thanks for the info on bias lighting. I ordered the Ideal-Lume - the wall behind my 006 is perfect for it. Once again, this forum continues to provide valuable advice - thanks!

ColorTV,
Everytime you say something about the 006, I just feel sooooo good that I own one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also ordered the Ideal-Lume from CinemaQuest based on the earlier recommendations from nhey.

wojtek

01-26-05, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by 3deye

One of the struggles with it has been that VAN generally means a slow switching response rate - so i'd carefully evaluate the picture with some fast moving video (film with serious action scenes or use a gaming console).

Don't worry about the response time...:)

>>The cell gap in the SXRD device measures less than 2µm, thinner than transmissive HTPS or most LCOS devices. The SXRD materials have been developed to accept good driving voltages and high quality optical properties, even in such thin cells. These innovations have enabled the combination of very high 3000:1 contrast and very rapid 5-msec response time. <<

Penton-Man

01-26-05, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by nhey

Blu-Ray/HD-DVD will be incredible.

Absolutely not!

Blu-ray OR hd-dvd will be incredible.

ONE format will be great.

In this case the technologically superior should supercede all other outside influences.

Ergo….Blu-ray should be great.

It’s about time to stop this political correctness and take a stand !

Artwood…..did I make you proud ?
What say you Rogo?

DreamCatcher

01-27-05, 12:18 AM

Any of you guys watching Alias on your 006?
I'm watching it via HD Charter cable. The box only outputs 1080i via it's DVI output. Does anybody know how this show is broadcast?
Anyway just incredible!
The blacks on this set are ..... well.... BLACK!

dc

brt3

01-27-05, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by 3deye
Hey, I just put an order/deposit in for the Q006 with the Performance Audio folks in SF. I really wanted a local dealer who I could go to in case of problems. It sounds like an almost perfect unit! (I met with the furniture builder today about the stand that we're building for it and it'll be done in March sometime.) Can't wait...

Hey, 3deye...

I lived in Mill Valley for 15 years. Who did you speak with at Performance Audio? I spoke with them earlier this afternoon; they told me they couldn't give me ANY idea of when they'd be able to deliver a Qualia006. If you've been told something different could you kindly let me know?

I'm thinking the Q006 is a perfect candidate for building into a wall unit. Will yours be built-in, or be out in the open? Along those lines, Brian at Qualia/Vegas told me the Qualia manual asks you to keep the unit four inches out from any back walls. This was news to me and seems like a strange requirement given that one of the big pluses of this design is its' relatively shallow depth. Add four inches and it's as deep as my Toshiba RPTV!

I was also told that there is a current promotion going on where current purchasers of the set (up to some unknown deadline date) will be given the first bulb replacement free of charge. Maybe this will help offset the cost of being an early adopter!

Finally, I bit the bullet and placed my order this evening. I have to say this was the single worst sales experience I've ever had! If SONY plans on making Qualia a success they will have to improve customer service by leaps and bounds -- this was worse than any car buying experience I've gone through...

First, the Qualia/Vegas salesperson told me they could not process my application for the 18 month/no interest financing. He gave me a Sony Finance number to call and set this up. After holding for 20 minutes they answered the phone, only to tell me that the salesman was wrong, they couldn't help me, and that they'd try and transfer me to someone that could. After being transfered I was told that the salesman was wrong, and given another number to call. Another long wait on hold, and after about 15 minutes I had to leave and attend to business. When I called back I finally got through after a mere 10 minutes on hold. I have perfect credit, and they told me they could finance $5K. When I said that I needed a line for $16K (006+stand+tax, rounded up) they said that, no, they would go no higher than $5K.

So, I declined the credit, fired up the AMEX, and phoned Qualia/Vegas back with the intent of purchasing via credit card. I was told that Sony was making it difficult for customers to be approved for high limits; that they'd had TOO strong a response to the 18 month/no interest offer. Seems strange, no? I was then informed that they'd need a photocopies of my driver's license and credit card to make any purchase. Some of you may have flatbed copiers at home, but I have only a fax machine. I carefully taped the license and credit card on sheets of paper to send through the fax (they had told me this would work) -- big mistake, as it jammed the machine!

At this point I was well and truly fed up and decided to have dinner (along with a strong beverage) to reduce my stress level. At this point I was three hours into this process -- 100% of that time was spent on hold, talking with Sony Finance, or going over details of this process with Qualia/Vegas. After mellowing a bit I called back, got the fax machine unjammed, and got things to go through.

My wife suggested that I was vainly overlooking the fact that some credit at no interest was better than none. She offered to call them back and apply for credit under her name. We went through another 15-minutes on hold, then they took her app and approved her over the phone. As instructed, we called Qualia/Vegas back to make the purchase. He asked for the account number, which we were not given. Sony Finance had told us we only needed a social security number to access the account info. The salesman said he'd call them and get the number. He called back thirty minutes later, and told us Sony Finance would not give him the number -- they'd only give the account number to the customer, and I'd have to call them back directly (yet again!) to get the number for him.

We phoned Sony Finance, held again for ten minutes, and then were told that they would NOT give us the number over the phone. They said we would have to wait until we received the card in the mail to make any purchase! At this point I was ready to just call things off; it didn't seem like this was meant to be. I told the phone operator how much time I had invested in this process, and asked to speak with a manager. Finally -- a person who knew her stuff! She called the store directly, spoke with my sales person, gave him the info he needed, and things are now just about wrapped up.

Sorry for the length of this post, but as regards SONY'S customer service I'd advise caveat emptor. I am trying to convey this as accurately as possible, without any exaggeration. My wife just walked by and said the same thing I wrote above -- "that was worse than any of our car buying experiences!". I would advise SONY to get their act together. There are too many alternatives on the market, and if you are selling a product at a premium price you'd d*mn well better provide a commensurate level of customer service.