I know the studios will insist on stronger encryption/copy protection, but will they also carry over the region encoding system? I searched the forum and couldn't find any discussions.

Originally posted by flyersfan
I know the studios will insist on stronger encryption/copy protection, but will they also carry over the region encoding system? I searched the forum and couldn't find any discussions.

Yes. I don't believe it's been officially announced however (could be wrong on that). But region encoding is definitely going to be in there, as it's an essential studio requirement. It's also expected to be encrypted this time around, bringing it under the protection of the DCMA.

I haven't heard for certain but I too would bet on region coding.

They'll probably break up the world into even more, smaller regions, for finer-grained fascism.

Originally posted by japanesegeek
. It's also expected to be encrypted this time around, bringing it under the protection of the DCMA. DVDs are encrypted, in most cases, using CSS. They'll use stronger encryption is probably what you mean.

bump.

What's the current zeitgeist? Will the studios disable regionfree players? Will they prosecute region hackers?

The current DVD region coding concept is archaic, because the Internet (movie promotion…) is worldwide and the e-business is worldwide.

A lot of people enjoy original version movies; others can only watch dubbed versions.
They are different customers.
In other words, the studios won’t lose any money if they adopt the launch business model of the book industry: the English version of the Harry Potter book series has a worldwide launch, and the other language versions arrive some months later.

Original version die-hards currently use region-modified DVD players.
If the region coding lasts with new high def discs, it will encourage hacking!!

well there's always DVD

DVDs are encrypted, in most cases, using CSS. They'll use stronger encryption is probably what you mean.

I believe he was refering to the region coding itself. A separate encryption from the copy protection.

AACS will NOT handle region coding, so it will have to be an add on. Which means it is far easier for BD to have than HD-DVD, since BD+ is there as a secondary. (That would be a negative comment about BD for all you keeping score :) ).

It potentially would be a per studio per title mechanism under BD+, making a hack extremely difficult.

Out of curiosity, how many region free player companies pay their DVD license fees?

Gary

Out of curiosity, how many region free player companies pay their DVD license fees?

For sure not the ones from China. I would bet my car on region coding. The studios will make it as difficult as possible to make a backup copy or use cheaper discs from other areas of the world. The region encoding is a huge marketing tool, since prices vary greatly around the world.

AACS will NOT handle region coding
If it's true, I vote for HD DVD! :)

If it's true, I vote for HD DVD! :)

That will be like voting for Ralph Nader. Without region encoding the studios won't be allowing any titles to be released on any format that doesn't have that capability.

But I will admit, I haven't seen too many Corvairs on the road lately.

If it's true, I vote for HD DVD! :)

Careful, it doesn't mean HD-DVD won't be doing region coding. I just said AACS won't be.

It's wait and see for both formats. But, it probably is far easier for BD.

Gary

Look at it this way-

You say that potential market in the US for high-def DVD is very small. Well, in Europe it is insignificant. If I want iHD, I'm pretty sure I'll have to import it from Japan or America for at least the first few years. So either we have multiregion players or we import player and software from the same place.

Right, Grubert. But I sure would prefer getting the player here, and importing movies from wherever I like. But knowing the studios, that does seem unlikely. Bummer.

NilsP

I live in the UK but it would be no problem for my brother who lives in the US to get hold of a US BR player for me.

However, if an internet connection may be required to watch anything, will I still be defeated unless I can find a US Proxy server?

Nick

You say that potential market in the US for high-def DVD is very small. Well, in Europe it is insignificant.

In Australia, region-coding was actually declared illegal by the courts. If region-coding is required on either or both of the new HD formats, I guess Australia won't be getting any HD discs.

Was region-coding actually declared illegal, or was it just determined to be illegal to prosecute people who sold or modified players to make them region-free?

the simple answer is that no one has any idea (if region coding will be on any players)

PS AACS is not finnalized :) so even saying it is not in AACS is not saying much

Info in the big thread :

From Ceatec Japan

...

The DVD forum, holding "Japan Conference 2005"
"The region cord/code abolition" of HD DVD is thick
- As for "HD DVD-RR" after the next spring. "DVD-RAM2" (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2fav%2fdocs%2f200 51006%2fdvdf.htm)
Thanks for the info!

Was region-coding actually declared illegal, or was it just determined to be illegal to prosecute people who sold or modified players to make them region-free?

I don't live in Australia, but it was my understanding that all DVD players sold in the country are required to be region-free.

However, I could be wrong, considering that their discs are still coded for Region 4.

I Googled "Australia region code", and after some sifting found a PS2 case involving region codes where it was essentially declared okay to mod a chip for region free play of games, but that case did not declare region coding illegal, just not enforceable legally. In other words, content owners were free to put region codes on discs, they just couldn't stop anyone from making players which ignored it.

Which might have the same marketplace effect as making region-locked players illegal, but is not the same thing at all. What this precedent would say is that if you were able to hack a high-def DVD player to remove region coding and it still somehow passed AACS muster (otherwise it wouldn't work), the content owners or manufacturers could not sue you or try to have you arrested.

Hence, from my reading, HD disk players with region-coding would not be illegal for electronics manufacturers to sell in Australia.

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000873062235/

[O]ne statement from Toshiba Digital Media Networks’ Hisashi Yamada was particularly intriguing: “We’ve gotten a variety of opinions about region controls. Even in the Steering Committee, they are extremely unpopular; we decided to not put them in. HD DVD probably won’t contain any region playback controls.”

Here's hoping BR will follow suit.

HD DVD probably won’t contain any region playback controls

Grubert: you did see the highlighted word didn't you?

Grubert: you did see the highlighted word didn't you?


Yes, I did. But on this forum, firm announcements in general are very thin on the ground, aren't they? ;)

Update, posted by amillians on the main thread:


Some more on regional coding and BD-ROM. It looks like BD will in fact use regional coding on the disc, but it will (as pointed out in other posts relating to patent 20050198115) allow for a means to allow a player to play non-region discs *if* certain conditions are met (e.g., the content is available for sale in the region the player is tied to). The binding process (stored in non-vol RAM) will require an online transaction. That said, there are some weird caveats...for example, the process allows for region-specific scene censoring (e.g., if a local censor *cough* China *cough* doesn't want it's population to see X, the region binding process can apparently bind to a pre-defined title playlist that forces scenes containing X to be skipped during playback).

Also, the above patent doesn't cover the concept of Region 0 playback devices, and there's talk of creating yet another process to allow discs to bind with certain playback environments (e.g., a laptop or portable device) to synthesize region free playback...again, blessed through an online transaction. The really odd thing (and expensive thing!) is that since people are wary of having to connect their decks to the net, it is suggested that content providers could issue an SD memory card with each disc with the proper credentials to allow region binding.

N.B.: Don't take the above as gospel...it's based on a CED report, and the BDA wouldn't comment. I can't image a content holder issuing a freakin SD memory card to "de-regionalize" their content. Since Warner and Disney have hinted strongly that they don't give a rat's a$$ about region coding, perhaps the BDA would do best to simply allow content holders to value a region code as 0 on the disc instead of going through all the freakin machinations.

Just read this (http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,17178898%5E15306%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html) on HTF. Sony is likely to abandon its practice of region coding games for its PlayStation 3 console.

policy as international television standards emerge.

"If you look at the fact that it will support high-definition TV, which will be a global standard, there's a good likelihood that it will be global region, as for example we've done with the PSP (PlayStation Portable)," Mr Ephraim said.

Now they only have to apply that very wise logic to movie region coding. ;)

I was told the PSP games aren't region coded. Don't know about UMD movies.

I think we won't be lucky and both formats will have RC, hopefully (but I am not holding my breath) RC won't be used.

Posted by PeterJK on the big thread, quoting a thread on beyond3d (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26740) who referred to IT Media (http://plusd.itmedia.co.jp/lifestyle/articles/0512/19/news023.html).

Though Warner was eager to abolish region code and there were no objection until the final decision, film companies not in AACS LA opposed it and it was decided that region code stays in AACS. But it undergoes reorganization. Basically, Japan and other East Asian countries except for China are moved to Region 1. The new region codes are

Region 1: North America, South America, East Asia except for China (India, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Malaysia etc.)
Region 2: Europe and Africa
Region 3: China, Russia and other countries



As a European, I must say this totally sucks. How many titles are being released locally, considering the microscopic potential market? Obviously they consider the only HD market is North America + Japan.

To make things worse, region coding will be embedded in AACS, so there won't be any easy region-free hacks. And if there is one and you apply it, and then 'they' detect what you've done, your player could get disabled.

Posted by PeterJK on the big thread, quoting a thread on beyond3d (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26740) who referred to IT Media (http://plusd.itmedia.co.jp/lifestyle/articles/0512/19/news023.html).

As a European, I must say this totally sucks. How many titles are being released locally, considering the microscopic potential market? Obviously they consider the only HD market is North America + Japan.

To make things worse, region coding will be embedded in AACS, so there won't be any easy region-free hacks. And if there is one and you apply it, and then 'they' detect what you've done, your player could get disabled.He just edited his post on Beyond3d to say:

EDIT: The article has added 1 correction, the region code is only about BD-ROM. HD-DVD has not decided on it yet.

Posted by PeterJK on the big thread, quoting a thread on beyond3d (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26740) who referred to IT Media (http://plusd.itmedia.co.jp/lifestyle/articles/0512/19/news023.html).



As a European, I must say this totally sucks. How many titles are being released locally, considering the microscopic potential market? Obviously they consider the only HD market is North America + Japan.

To make things worse, region coding will be embedded in AACS, so there won't be any easy region-free hacks. And if there is one and you apply it, and then 'they' detect what you've done, your player could get disabled.


I'm hoping they don't shove Taiwan into the China group. Maybe we can just import players from Australia if there won't have region protection. Too bad everything electronic is so rapingly overpriced in Australia.

everything just looks bad about that article, I would wait for something more official before getting worked up about it

What I mean is
1) AACS was never supposed to have RC
2) If it is in AACS ist is in both formats

http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/12/19/aacs_10_negotiations_make_progress/page2.html

This is where the issue of the region code once again rears its ugly head. In order for players to be able to determine for themselves which content cannot be restricted by ICT under the laws of their respective countries, content must still include those pesky region codes that have proven unpopular among current DVD customers. According to the IT Media report, AACS LA members belonging to the Blu-ray Disc Association have reached limited agreement regarding the use of region codes in high-def media. "Region 1" will cover North and South America, and East Asia excluding China. Europe and Africa will constitute "Region 2," and China, Russia, and miscellaneous countries fall in "Region 3." Note the lack of direct correspondence between these regions and the three analog transmission standard coverage areas: Both France and Great Britain, which utilize different standards, fall under Region 2. (There are eight region codes currently in use with DVD.) These codes may or may not end up being used in HD DVD.

The report stated that Warner Bros. was the most vocal advocate of abolishing region codes altogether, assuming a position previously adopted by the DVD Forum's steering committee that they had proven not only unpopular but ineffective. On paper, it would have appeared opponents of region codes outnumbered supporters by a substantial margin. Nonetheless, lack of consensus among AACS LA members about how to address the issue of East Asian pirate videos flowing into European and North American markets, apparently led to the reluctant decision to leave region codes on the table for now, though amendments to the IT Media report imply that they may yet be stricken from AACS.

ICT has nothig to do with RC

ICT has nothig to do with RC

According to that report, ICT has given raise to region code ... so that if the disk is a particular RC, the players will accept ICT only after a certain year. But the region codes given puts Japan & US in the same region. So I don't know how it can be useful.

Also, what will they do if after 2011 Japanese govt decides to extend the prohibition of ICT.

On a side note, isn't it great that while Japan prohibits ICT, we have a bill to plug the "analog hole" in US :rolleyes:

On a side note, isn't it great that while Japan prohibits ICT, we have a bill to plug the "analog hole" in US :rolleyes:

Actually, the two are not mutually exclusive. The analog bill here only puts restrictions on devices which digitize an analog stream.

Actually, the two are not mutually exclusive. The analog bill here only puts restrictions on devices which digitize an analog stream.
True. Its the spirit of the legislation I'm talking about ...

Though, it also probably shows the relative streagths of studios / CE companies in US & Japan.

Actually, the two are not mutually exclusive. The analog bill here only puts restrictions on devices which digitize an analog stream.

How about PVRs?


And this bill is ridiculously hard on timeshifting. Section 201 (b) (1) of the DTCSA gives you all of 90 minutes from the initial reception of a "unit of content" to watch your recordings. Heaven forbid you get a long phone call or an unscheduled visit from a neighbor when you're engaged in some delayed viewing—once that 90-minute window closes you're out of luck until the next broadcast.


Gary

And this bill is ridiculously hard on timeshifting. Section 201 (b) (1) of the DTCSA gives you all of 90 minutes from the initial reception of a "unit of content" to watch your recordings. Heaven forbid you get a long phone call or an unscheduled visit from a neighbor when you're engaged in some delayed viewing—once that 90-minute window closes you're out of luck until the next broadcast.


Wow ... does that mean I've to watch within 90 minutes of recording the show ? So, if I record something at 2:00 AM I should get up and watch it before 3:30 AM ... ?

How about PVRs?

This really isn't the right thread for this discussion, but as long as we keep it brief:

The "analog hole" bill-- which is a sucky bill, but not nearly as sucky as people who haven't read it closely think it is-- requires that new analog-to-digital recorders recognize and obey flags in an analog signal which restrict copying. It also requires that analog-only devices (a VCR, or a forthcoming purely analog HD recorder, for example) pass along this signal, though analog-only devices don't have to obey them.

In a seldom cited or read portion, it puts limits on which signals the studios themselves can put on content. Over the air broadcasts-- or even broadcasts which were once broadcast over the air and are now being repeated-- cannot have any restrictions placed on them. Cable and satellite services, not including pay-per-view or video on demand, can at worst be made "copy once"-- which means you will always be able to make a recording of anything you get off cable or satellite. Pay-per-view, VOD, and things like BD or HD-DVD can be made "copy never" in analog space, which means that a compliant analog-to-digital device will only copy them for 90 minutes before deleting them. If you want to copy them in analog, you still can.

And this bill is ridiculously hard on timeshifting. Section 201 (b) (1) of the DTCSA gives you all of 90 minutes from the initial reception of a "unit of content" to watch your recordings. Heaven forbid you get a long phone call or an unscheduled visit from a neighbor when you're engaged in some delayed viewing—once that 90-minute window closes you're out of luck until the next broadcast.


That is indeed the case with pay-per-view or other "buy it once" programming. However, as I mentioned above, content owners and distributors are forbidden by the law to put "copy never" into the analog stream for regular, even subscription cable/satellite broadcasts, and even there can at worst use "copy once only". They are not permitted to restrict over the air broadcasts at all in the analog-to-digital domain. This 90 minute restriction thus only applies to pay-per-view, not to the majority of programming.

What is not in the bill, and what isn't in any bill that I'm aware of (yet) is something which controls these flags in the digital regime. Analog is dying, and the future is digital, simply because it's easier to do this stuff, long term, on digital silicon chips without a bunch of DACs in the way. I am opposed to this bill on principle, but I will truly worry only when I see a bill enshrining these flags into digital signals. That will be ugly.

So I don't know how it can be useful.

bingo. I read the article, but like the previous article, the facts it is supposedly reporting are self contradictory when you think about it (like you said).


I wish Amir, his team and anyone else working on these AACS issues good luck, sucks that there seems to be some issues that have arisen in it at this point in the game and time of year.

Will these changes be implemented by software or hardware? In other words, could hacked firmware negate the issue?

what changes?

What is not in the bill, and what isn't in any bill that I'm aware of (yet) is something which controls these flags in the digital regime. Analog is dying, and the future is digital, simply because it's easier to do this stuff, long term, on digital silicon chips without a bunch of DACs in the way. I am opposed to this bill on principle, but I will truly worry only when I see a bill enshrining these flags into digital signals. That will be ugly.

Isn't 5C / DTCP already doing it ?

what changes?

The changes in analog-to-digital recorders as mandated by the bill if passed.

Firmware hacking to avoid this would be against the law, if passed.

Isn't 5C / DTCP already doing it ?

DTCP doesn't carry the force of law. Its use is an agreement between businesses, and non-signatories to that agreement are not bound by it. What would be unacceptable is a law which mandates that all digital interfaces must carry DTCP protection. On the one hand, I can still design and market a device which decodes and records OTA digital broadcast without restriction; Hollywood could try to sue me, but they would lose due to the Betamax precedent. In the other situation, with a law like that in place, I could be criminally prosecuted for not signing on to a proprietary system to view content which is being broadcast over public airwaves.

Firmware hacking to avoid this would be against the law, if passed.

Legality aside, it would be possible, correct? IMHO no one has the right to say what I can and can't do with a product I buy as long as I don't physically harm other people. Modding forever. ;)

Impossible to say. I can only speculate, when it's a technology I didn't have a part in developing, and I've been as far away from CGMS and VEIL as I can possibly get.

There is a distressing trend now to get various patented copy protection technologies written into law. This, along with associated robustness requirments, allows an old boy network to (legally?) engage in various restraint of trade activities against newcomers while gathering a steady license revenue stream.

It was apparent somewhat with Macrovision in the DMCA and would have been quite obvious in the broadcast flag if that had been upheld.

- Tom

Precisely why I am against it, even though my company (and my stock price) would financially benefit from it, if passed.

OT - Any inside info on the Intel based Powerbooks?

If I knew, I couldn't tell you. :)

That said, I wish I knew. Apple makes Intel keep that information tighter than a Hollywood accountant's fist. I know some people at Intel who probably know the details, but they basically smile and ignore any questions along those line when I talk to them. Bastards.

It's no secret, though, that the new Apples will be using Intel chips derived from the Pentium-M. I will draw my own conclusions from that.

This 90 minute restriction thus only applies to pay-per-view, not to the majority of programming.


And hence isn't really much of a restriction on timeshifting since PPV provides plently of repeats and VOD is on demand. So, it really only applies to the situation where you've decided to pay and THEN something comes up and you wish to view your purchase later. That's not strictly timeshifting.

And such a restriction will have to compete with other forms of content delivery. If consumers end up perceiving the restriction as too onerous, that will lower the value of the service and ultimately cost the providers revenue when they are forced to lower the prices to attract the customers.

My cable company gives a 24-hour window for a VOD purchase. Presumably this law is proposing to define a MINIMUM window of 90 minutes.

Gary

My cable company gives a 24-hour window for a VOD purchase. Presumably this law is proposing to define a MINIMUM window of 90 minutes.

Nope. Maximum. Section 201b1A says analog-to-digital recordings of PPV can be retained for not more than 90 minutes from initial receipt, after which it must be destroyed or otherwise rendered unusable.

Presumably the idea is to keep pay-per-view actually per view, so someone couldn't order a PPV movie and then end up with a permanent copy of the movie they ordered. 'Course, this is in the somewhat unlikely event that someone records a pay-per-view event in analog and tries to record it digitally, so it's, as you put it, not much of a restriction.

Nope. Maximum. Section 201b1A says analog-to-digital recordings of PPV can be retained for not more than 90 minutes from initial receipt, after which it must be destroyed or otherwise rendered unusable.

What is initial receipt ? Beginning of receipt or the end ..

Also, if the program lasts more than 90 minutes ... what happens ? Say its a movie that runs for 3 hours or to take an extreme case a cricket test match which lasts 5 days that I've bought PPV and recorded onto my DVR thr' analog inputs. In the first case will dvr delete portions of the movie as I watch ... ? How about the cricket match .... since it is live, I need to record it as it happens (say at night time in the US) and watch it in the morning.

'Course, this is in the somewhat unlikely event that someone records a pay-per-view event in analog and tries to record it digitally, so it's, as you put it, not much of a restriction.

I guess the law applies when I get the program using an analog box like Dish 6000 and use a DVR to record it ... not unlikely at all.

P.S. I think this places an unreasonable restriction on the content owners ability to sell live events as PPV. If challenged I'm sure tThis will get thrown out by the courts ...

Okay, how if we go back to region encoding? Believe it or not it is an important issue for some of us...

What is initial receipt ? Beginning of receipt or the end ..

It specifies "initial receipt of each unit of content", which means, essentially, a 90 minute rolling window.


Also, if the program lasts more than 90 minutes ... what happens ?

It starts deleting from the beginning to retain the 90 minute window.


Say its a movie that runs for 3 hours or to take an extreme case a cricket test match which lasts 5 days that I've bought PPV and recorded onto my DVR thr' analog inputs. In the first case will dvr delete portions of the movie as I watch ... ?

If it has been flagged by the content owner as "copy never", then yes.


How about the cricket match .... since it is live, I need to record it as it happens (say at night time in the US) and watch it in the morning.

I understand. I'm just interpreting the law for you, not applauding it. Presumably for something like this the content owner and the PPV broadcaster could come to some sort of agreement over which flag would be attached; "copy never" is just an option for PPV-- the content owner is not required to use it, and can opt for lesser restrictions on the content.


I guess the law applies when I get the program using an analog box like Dish 6000 and use a DVR to record it ... not unlikely at all.


Perhaps. I don't know anyone that does this except to accumulate copies of PPV movies for their own video collection, but I concede there may be a lot of people out there recording one-of-a-kind events to their analog-in Tivo boxes for timeshifting purposes.


P.S. I think this places an unreasonable restriction on the content owners ability to sell live events as PPV. If challenged I'm sure tThis will get thrown out by the courts ...

I don't see why. The flags are entirely voluntary on the part of the content owner, and the only mandate is that the broadcaster and consumer electronics makers obey the flag selection.

Okay, how if we go back to region encoding? Believe it or not it is an important issue for some of us...


Agreed. Nataraj, if you want to discuss this further, PM me or start a new topic.

I understand. I'm just interpreting the law for you, not applauding it.

Oh yes, I understand that. Thanks for clearing up some of my doubts.

I don't see why. The flags are entirely voluntary on the part of the content owner, and the only mandate is that the broadcaster and consumer electronics makers obey the flag selection.

Oh ... thats right. I forgot that part ....

Agreed. Nataraj, if you want to discuss this further, PM me or start a new topic.

Right. Lets get back to RC.

Okay, how if we go back to region encoding? Believe it or not it is an important issue for some of us...
Yes, it is.

http://img495.imageshack.us/img495/9492/0image19ac.gif

How Much Information? 2003 :
http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/research/projects/how-much-info-2003/execsum.htm

Any news from CES ?

I remember hearing that the initial batch of HD DVD titles were not going to be region-coded, but that it was up to someone (the studios? the MPAA?) as to whether later releases would be. However, it wouldn't make sense if the MPAA didn't want region coding that they'd let discs go early without it.

I just hope we get that region 1 North America, Japan, Korea thing. I really want the Toshiba player, and don't know when it will show up over here.

I would rather Japan stays as region 2 along with the UK ( you can guess why )

Originally Posted by DanielTS
"Is AACS used to protect the region coding fields of HD DVD? Thanks."

Replied by Amir
"No it wil not. Same will be true of BD."
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6536399&&#post6536399

Toshiba HD-A1
"DVD movie playback is restricted to "Region 1" coded discs"
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-lypbTAiqsps/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?i=052HDA1

Does it mean HD DVD movie playback isn't region-restricted ?

Region coding is still being discussed but what I said is very much true. If region coding is implemented, it will be easy to bypass. Our hope is that this"feature" goes away.

Amir

Does it mean HD DVD movie playback isn't region-restricted ?

It means that it will not be protected by AACS. In other words, it will probably be hackable without turning your player into a doorstop.

That would be something I can live with. I had missed Amirs confirmation that region coding would not be protected by AACS in the multitude of threads. If we don't have to circumvent AACS do get rid of region coding then I'm one happy camper.

Region coding is still being discussed but what I said is very much true. If region coding is implemented, it will be easy to bypass. Our hope is that this"feature" goes away.

Amir

To be more clear, HD region coding is up in the air. Legacy DVD playback will include region coding.

It means that it will not be protected by AACS. In other words, it will probably be hackable without turning your player into a doorstop.


Don't tell me you are one of those "try to hack your player and it will be a doorstop" types. :D

Region coding is still being discussed but what I said is very much true. If region coding is implemented, it will be easy to bypass. Our hope is that this"feature" goes away.
Great news !!! Thanks !

If the BDA (BD+) will not follow, HD DVD will certainly dominate the non-US world.

I just received the following in an email from Toshiba:

"I also wanted to let you know that the Region Coding question raised was
answered definitively in a conference call last night, as we thought, there
will be no region coding on these two models."

I will ask for clarification on whether that applies to both HD-DVD and standard DVD playback, or just HD-DVD.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7245623&&#post7245623

GDC 06: Region-free PS3
Prepare for the shock of shockers - every PS3 game from the world can be yours!
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/697/697656p1.html
March 22, 2006 - In a QA session following the platform keynote address at GDC 2006 this morning, Sony Computer Entertainment Worldwide Studios President Phil Harrison confirmed what was heavily demanded for import gamers all over the world and yet previously thought unthinkable for a major corporation: the PS3 will be region-free for gaming.

The move was not unexpected, as SCE had previously mentioned considering the possibility of opening up the region structure for PS3 games recently (the newly-released PSP system has but does not use a region code system for games, but that's more a standard for portable games than a new development for region-free gaming.) The system is, amongst other things, hoped to help combat piracy - many import fans "chip" their consoles with region-free mod chips to play import games, and while that desire has some legitimacy, it also opens the doors for pirates to release illegal copies of games. (Funnily enough, it's most often easier to run illegal games on a console than it is to run legit games from other countries due to the way most mod chips work, leading to a slippery slope for importers hoping to stay legit but finding the road difficult to maneuver.) Region-free gaming also allows game publishers to release games across the globe simultaneously, either through e-distribution or on disc...

Next step: Blu-ray movie titles to be region free ???

I think games are less of an issue. What I mean is if ea sports makes a hockey game for Canada and the US, I don't think they care if someone in Europe or Japan buys it. On the other hand with movies different studios can have the same movie for distribution. So if someone in The US or Canada buys the movie in Europe, then the European distributor made the money instead of the US one. Hasn’t Amir used that to insinuate some BD movies in NA might be on both in Europe?

34th DVD Forum Steering Committee Meeting (May 24, 2006):

Approval of "HD DVD RPC Ad hoc group to work with appropriate WGs to develop a specification and enforcement plan for RPC on HD DVD-Video including region map and requirements in consultation with the studios" - Approved

http://www.dvdforum.org/34scmtg-resolution.htm

34th DVD Forum Steering Committee Meeting (May 24, 2006):

Approval of "HD DVD RPC Ad hoc group to work with appropriate WGs to develop a specification and enforcement plan for RPC on HD DVD-Video including region map and requirements in consultation with the studios" - Approved

http://www.dvdforum.org/34scmtg-resolution.htm

This seems to be a pose to win more studio support. FOX, do you hear? :)
Also, Amir suggested that 1G HD DVD players will always stay as region free for HD DVD. Is this true?

This just in:

Toshiba has said they don't plan to implement region coding in its European HD DVD players recently announced.

Blu-ray to Begin Region-Coding this Fall

It looks like the days of region-free Blu-ray disc playback are coming to an end. The Blu-ray Disc Association has decided to begin burning regional codes into the discs sold in the format beginning this fall.

While the Bu-ray group had devised a regional coding system last year, there was some question whether it would be used to prevent playback across regions.

Variety is reporting this morning that the decision to institute the coding system emerged from talks between Advanced Access Content System members who belong to the Blu-ray Disc Association. Warner Bros. reportedly opposed the system, citing the ineffectiveness of the current coding setup for conventional DVDs, but was outvoted.

On the bright side for consumers, the Blu-ray group's regional coding system splits the world into three markets (instead of the more restrictive six markets for standard DVD). Those markets are as follows: Region A, covering Japan, South Korea, the Americas and most of Southeast Asia; Region B, which includes Europe and the Middle East; and Region C, which includes China, Russia, India and other countries.

The HD DVD camp has yet to institute region codes, and has said in the past that they won't.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Region_Coding/Blu-ray_to_Begin_Region-Coding_this_Fall___/277

(sound of gun discharging into lower appendage)

And just when I thought SONY couldn't do any worse with the whole BR thing...REGION CODING! Ha, these people truly are greedy morons selling an obviously inferior product!

BR negatives:

2nd to launch
twice the price of HD-DVD
Samsung player launch (buggy at best)
Various player delays (Pioneer, SONY, Panasonic, etc)
poorly mastered discs (especially from SONY)
some players don't play CDs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(most notably SONY)
mpeg-2 (with uncompressed LPCM no less; not surprisingly from SONY)
lower capacity discs (with continuous delays of DL...if it EVER is released)
dragging feet on advanced video and audio codecs
dragging feet on ethernet ports
blue laser shortages
PS3 pricing, overheating, shortages, no HDMI cable included, etc...
Now regio-coding (pissing everyone, including WARNER off...bad move!)

Am I missing anything?
Oh yeah, the promise of "beyond high definition"

no player standard until July 2007
...

It is sad but if you look beyond the technology the whole BD focus was not really on playback and pq but on DRM and control. Remember this is the same Sony with ROOT KIT, some of the studios are the same ones with DIVX payper view (Disney, 20th Century Fox, and Paramount Pictures.) Sony has sold all of this to some of the studios as an unbeatable content control.
In the end this is what will cause the format to fail, it is not a quality or technology battle, it is all about control.

John

(sound of gun discharging into lower appendage)Amazing, simply amazing.

Its like Blu-ray is doing everything to blow off the informed consumer that knows better by putting out flawed restricted products while trying to sell to the ignorant masses using marketing hype at the same time they suck as much money out of them as they can.

HD DVD to date has not chosen that path.

If Blu-ray succeeds it seems we have no guarantee of steady picture quality or consumer friendly products. All of their decisions seem to favor the CE companies or studios or Sony, over that of consumers.

I had hoped that would change, but region coding is a bad sign. I'm depressed. :(

And just when I thought SONY couldn't do any worse with the whole BR thing...REGION CODING! Ha, these people truly are greedy morons selling an obviously inferior product!

BR negatives:

2nd to launch
twice the price of HD-DVD
Samsung player launch (buggy at best)
Various player delays (Pioneer, SONY, Panasonic, etc)
poorly mastered discs (especially from SONY)
some players don't play CDs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(most notably SONY)
mpeg-2 (with uncompressed LPCM no less; not surprisingly from SONY)
lower capacity discs (with continuous delays of DL...if it EVER is released)
dragging feet on advanced video and audio codecs
dragging feet on ethernet ports
blue laser shortages
PS3 pricing, overheating, shortages, no HDMI cable included, etc...
Now regio-coding (pissing everyone, including WARNER off...bad move!)

Am I missing anything?
Oh yeah, the promise of "beyond high definition" Is any one of these decisions in favor of consumers?

It is sad but if you look beyond the technology the whole BD focus was not really on playback and pq but on DRM and control. Remember this is the same Sony with ROOT KIT, some of the studios are the same ones with DIVX payper view (Disney, 20th Century Fox, and Paramount Pictures.) Sony has sold all of this to some of the studios as an unbeatable content control.
In the end this is what will cause the format to fail, it is not a quality or technology battle, it is all about control.Utter bull****! Try reading the AACS specs and then see how you feel about the "control" issues that the HD-DVD side has. And Microsoft is one of the biggest supporters of DRM technology!

Worst. Post. Ever.

Utter bull****! Try reading the AACS specs and then see how you feel about the "control" issues that the HD-DVD side has. And Microsoft is one of the biggest supporters of DRM technology!

Worst. Post. Ever.
Two things:

1. You can indeed read the AACS specs because it is avaible to everyone. But you can not read the BD+ copy protection specs or the region coding. As they say, you don't even know what you don't know about BD copy protection! :)

2. AACS is used in both BD and HD DVD. Its membership includes majority vote of BD companies. We are but one company there. Disney, Matsushita, and Sony support the BD house nicely...

Utter bull****! Try reading the AACS specs and then see how you feel about the "control" issues that the HD-DVD side has. And Microsoft is one of the biggest supporters of DRM technology!

Worst. Post. Ever.

I suggest you check both sides, and look at which camp has consistantly implimented the most control freak minded implimentations.

Do you really think that the adding of the HDMI to the low end PS3 this late in the game was out of Sony's infinite generosity? Or was it again part of its pitch to the control freaks that there would not be ANY Sony base out there that did not have the ability for the full HDMI hdcp lock down.

So lets see, HD Dvd has no region coding, the xbox 360 will allow upscaled dvd's via VGA connection, an installed base of non HDMI HDCP devices.

Just like rootkit, it was not like Sony was upfront about what they were doing and what was going on, it was only after the fact when they were caught by clever analysis, that they had to back down after a fight.

Why not be upfront about BD+?
Why don't the insiders from Sony and Sun identify themselves on the insiders forums like the Microsoft/Intel/Broadcom/Sigma Designs have? What do they have to hide?

While we may not like everything that MS does or impliments, at least here they are willing to be upfront, discuss it and declare who they are.

You might not like the post but it does raise some issues that people need to think about.


John

Am I missing anything?

Yes but it'd be deemed a "personal insult" so I won't bite.

First of you confuse BD "negatives" with Sony "negatives", credit (and blame) where it's due.

1) 2nd to launch
2) twice the price of HD-DVD
3) Samsung player launch (buggy at best)
4) Various player delays (Pioneer, SONY, Panasonic, etc)
5) poorly mastered discs (especially from SONY)
6) some players don't play CDs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(most notably SONY)
7) mpeg-2 (with uncompressed LPCM no less; not surprisingly from SONY)
8) lower capacity discs (with continuous delays of DL...if it EVER is released)
9) dragging feet on advanced video and audio codecs
10) dragging feet on ethernet ports
11) blue laser shortages
12) PS3 pricing
13) overheating
14) shortages
15) no HDMI cable included

1) No big deal. It's history now
2) true
3) Some problems have been reported, the Toshiba had far bigger problems until they patched the firmware.
4) true but if they'd released players that weren't ready they'd be critisised for that. Can't have it both ways
5) A handful were. Thankfully this no longer appears to be the case
6) Percentage of people who still play CDs, let alone via a DVD/BD player? Less than 1% i imagine.
7) Not a negative. Uncompressed sound is a positive.
8) Some amazing results with SL discs. DL was only announced for "summer" and that was before the launch got moved. First DL disc arrives on Tuesday.
9) Warner (VC1), Disney (AVC) and Fox (VC1) aren't. Lossless sound on a lot of titles.
10) Not sure how they're dragging their feet. Only one player hasn't had ethernet ports and the number of people who'd want them are almost nil.
11) Effects both formats, not sure how that's a "BD negative"
12) See 14. If the PS3 has shortages then high prices won't matter. There will be people willing to pay more than the MSRP because the demand will be way higher than the supply. Regardless of the MSRP it will still be over $1000 on ebay.
13) As the PS3 hasn't been released, we can't possibly know.
14) See 12.
15) oh no a 2% increase in total expenditure! I here that you have to unbox the PS3 yourself went you get it home.

Now region-coding (pissing everyone, including WARNER off...bad move!)

"everyone" will get over it when it's cracked. Didn't you own a DVD player? I haven't read any quotes from Warner saying they're "pissed off" with the BDA.

Is any one of these decisions in favor of consumers?

Most of them have little or no impact on the majority of consumers. Since when have businesses been there to do anything other than generate income. They're not charities.

BTW, HD DVD is going to start using RPC next year. Nail in the coffin etc. etc.

Back to topic,

A fellow forum member asked me about the situation on region encoding for HD DVD. I read through the minutes of the DVD Forum and compiled the relevant information, which I was said could be interesting for the rest of the forum. So here it is:

Summary
Region playback control (RPC) for HD DVD hasn't been adopted as of now. The issue was raised in September 2005, an ad hoc group was created in February 2006 to discuss policy issues of RPC on HD DVD. Technical aspects are discussed at AH0-22. In May 2006 it seemed RPC was definitely being developed. But since then no specifics have transpired from the Steering Committee meetings.

Timeline
- 31st meeting (9/14/05). Topic of regional playback control on next-generation first addressed. Warner and Disney suggest asking about studios' opinion through MPAA. Microsoft said that this inquiry should not delay progress of HD DVD.

- 32nd meeting (11/16/05). Disney presents informal report on RPC on next-generation optical disc. MPAA wouldn't say anything without a formal request, so it was decided to send MPAA a letter so that MPAA polls all studios. Disney stated that it supports RPC for next generation formats.

- 33rd meeting (2/22/06). Report on responses received from studios. HD DVD RPC Ad Hoc Group created, at Toshiba proposal.

- 34th meeting (5/24/06). Toshiba proposes resolution for the Ad Hoc Group to "work with appropriate WGs to develop a specification and enforcement plan for RPC on HD DVD-Video including region map and requirements in consultation with the studios." Proposal approved (with IBM, ITRI, Intel, LG, Microsoft, NEC, Samsung, Sanyo, Thomson, Toshiba, Disney and Warner voting yes, and Hitachi, Panasonic, Mitsubishi, Pioneer, Philips, Sharp, Sony and JVC abstaining).

- 35th meeting (9/12/06). Ad Hoc Group submits progress report. No other proposals presented or acted upon.

- 36th meeting (11/29/06). TCG Chair provides status report on AH0-22's progress with respect to RPC on HD DVD-Video. Ad Hoc Group submits progress report.

- 37th meeting (02/28/07). Ad Hoc Group submits progress report.

Yes. I don't believe it's been officially announced however (could be wrong on that). But region encoding is definitely going to be in there, as it's an essential studio requirement.


How is it "essential"? :rolleyes:


It's also expected to be encrypted this time around, bringing it under the protection of the DCMA.

Since when any commercial DVD isn't encrypted already? :rolleyes:

This just in:

Toshiba has said they don't plan to implement region coding in its European HD DVD players recently announced.

I never understood this utterly idiotic movie release schedules and regions, especially when it not only separated EU and USA into different groups but also created groups within EU countries.

Sheer stupidity, arrogant, retarded control-freaks at the studios.
Well, they at least achieved that I never go to see any big studio movie in theaters, only small ones or independent ones. The sooner the Hollywood parasites die, the better for the world.

Utter bull****! Try reading the AACS specs and then see how you feel about the "control" issues that the HD-DVD side has. And Microsoft is one of the biggest supporters of DRM technology!

Worst. Post. Ever.

You mean the one you just made?
I fully agree, it's outright stupid, due to utter ignorance.

T2k, you realise you're replying to months- and even years-old post, do you? ;)

I bumped the thread to offer a recap of the RPC status on HD DVD (see post 90 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10479762&&#post10479762)).

I know, I just can't stand misinformation. :)

You did good, trust me. :cool:

PS: I still cannot see any region encoding introduced on HD-DVD if sales growth will remain the same or better. It's just doesn't make sense to kill your market - unless you're the most arrogant & loser company a.k.a. Sony.