ahh that's why jakeman.

Huge!!! Just curious, why are you hiding your online status? Turn it on!! =)

Thanks

mikaels

europe player cant be that different. if you got a pre modded player and it worked, why shouldt mine work?

RC2 ist RC2 in Europe
I think i will risk it. ;-)

MAD242

mikaels (corrected name), I read the form but I can't read the language.

It really depends on what mod it is.

I know my unit didn't get altered. It wasn't region free to begin with and it remained the same after upgrade.

mikaels:

Forgot to add, please tell us what your region display saids.

Thanks

Sango

so, i finally updated my s97.

and , puh, he still works fine. he plays rc2, rc1 and rc3. i tested severell dvd´s. i dont now if he will rce, cause i dont now wich dvd has this kind of code ;).

so my first concern about the new fw is killing my code free mod was not necessary.

for the pq:

as far as i can tell after the update (i just watched 5 minutes after that), i think i can confirm the post about the blacker picture. and i mean, the picture is a bit sharper. and that was the main reason for me to do the update.

now i will look if i can see any improvement in the mb thing and anything else

cu

MAD242

mad242:

Try the "The Medallion" R1 disc because it has the RCE 1 enconding. Jacky Chan movie!!

Perhaps the firmware wasn't modifiing the region/macro stuff. However, if it is, then it's a different story. However, we don't know this for all cases - for example, the 540 firmware. As I mentioned earlier we know my firmware makes everything back to stock.

Sango

Hello,

I just upgraded to 536, everything went well, but it didn't retain previous setting. But that's OK.

Just one question, how do you make this thing region free?

Thanks

Baja

There is a remote hack for it.

Look here (http://www.dvdchips.co.uk/).

Originally posted by LiteUp!
mgkg3,

Did you reset all of your customized settings back to where you had them after the upgrade that put them back to factory defaults? No one else has noticed this. Maybe you are now in 480i mode instead of 720p or 1080i.

Thanks for the recommendation. However, yes, I did reset everything once the firmware was updated. I have played with both 1080i and 720p and 1080i still looks better for my 1366x768 panel. Besides, I am using HDMI to DVI connection and it does not pass 480i from HDMI port.

So, short answer is, the image is just softer at the neutral setting and have to pump up the sharpness to get back to where it was prior to the update (yes, I did check Cinama 1, 2, and animation but settled on user setting).

Not a big deal really, just bit odd...

Thank You Sango - You're Da Man.

will it do pal to ntsc too sango?

Originally posted by mgkg3
the image is just softer at the neutral setting and have to pump up the sharpness to get back to where it was prior to the update (yes, I did check Cinama 1, 2, and animation but settled on user setting).

Not a big deal really, just bit odd...


It is a big deal if they're trading other PQ in order to get rid of the MB.

I'm beginning to wonder more and more whether or not the new firmware is just tweaks to the picture settings to make the MB less noticeable rather than a real solution to the problem. So far, different people have reported different results in PQ after the upgrade. It might be the adjustments to the PQ is so subtle that you don't realize it unless you can look at the units side by side. Most of you are trying to remember the picture quality before the upgrade from memory which can be misleading at best.

It's too bad that Paul already has his unit at the service center or I would have suggested that he take photos of movie scenes before and after the upgrade with the same settings so we can get a more objective look.

jcc,

There are some photos taken that are present on the first post (including a macroblock picture) of the S97 FAQ thread.

Paul

Right, will you be able to take the same shots after you get your unit back?

Shouldn't be a problem.

Paul

zoro:

The unit doesn't any have NTSC <-> PAL capabilities.

Sango

darn it!

Apparently, they (U.S.) are still not acknowledging it. I just got this e-mail today:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the Panasonic DVDS97. We apologize for the delay in providing you a reply to your inquiry, and we hope that this delay has not caused you any inconvenience. If you are having a problem with your DVDS97 regarding picture distortion then you should have your DVDS97 evaluated by an authorized Panasonic service facility. We have no knowledge of a firmware update for the DVDS97. If you have further question or need further assistance with your DVDS97 please call 1-888-843-9788, select option #4; provide your case reference number
<my case number here> to the representative that you speak with and they will assist you. For your convenience, the call center is open from 9:00 am to 9:00 p.m. (est.; Mon-Fri) and from 10:00 am to 7:00 p.m. (est.; Sat/Sun).

Panasonic in the US is out of touch. I hope that the service center that Paul
brought his into can get to the souce of the problem in the US. It seems that the people who are answering the emails just check their computers for update info and if there isn't any info in their database they write letters like this.

Who knows what database they research if they do any research at all or even if they know how to research.

First line defense is high volume, little wage, high turnover. Rarely does anyone become skilled at that position. If they show interest they either get promoted or wise up and find another job that pays better like McDonalds that has less aggravation.

First line of defense is about volume. Move 'em in and move 'em out. If you spend more than 30 seconds you better have a good reason why and that doesn't reduce the quota one bit.

End of rant.

Hopefully my call to Panasonic got things moving on Panasonic's end.

Paul

hmm... seems panasonic service is much better outside of U.S. Feel sorry for you guys.

Originally posted by jakeman
hmm... seems panasonic service is much better outside of U.S. Feel sorry for you guys.
I'd say something but I may get my fanny spanked again.:(

I'm not sweating it. Just a little bit frustrated. Maybe after this go round it'll be easier for everyone else.

(Hopefully)

Penton-Man, did you get your S97's firmware updated?

Paul

Paul what can we do?

We need to write to HQ!! Convince them that we should get access!

LOL...Penton-Man...I hear ya!

Sango,

I'm pushing them. Big corporations move slowly sometimes. Also, the servicer, like any other, has a lot of irons in the fire. They're obviously unused to this process and might not know how to "push" convincingly.

Paul

Tohoho:

I managed to get in contact with Panasonic Japan.

Panasonic Japan is currently looking into it but I need to you ask the S97User on the Japanese BBS questions becuase they want to find out.

1) Where the owner sent the unit (location and the exact name of the service center)?
2) The phone number of the service center.

I've replied back by saying it was done at the Panasonic's own Factory Service Center at Headquarters - not sure if that is the correct answer but I replied back as best as I could.

If you can get the exact information for me, that will be appreciated.

Sango

Is it my imagination? Or is it true that it is basically impossible to now tell where the layer break is in a movie now with 85E536 firmware? I tried several movies tonight (all Superbit movies), and no pause at all.

Can anyone check to see if this player passes the 3-2 Cadence, Video Flags
properly now

and if the Menu speed is faster and layer change is noticable with the new firmware.

Originally posted by Sango
Tohoho:

1) Where the owner sent the unit (location and the exact name of the service center)?
2) The phone number of the service center.

Sango

Sango,

There are a lot of local service center in Japan, as following link. But I think local service center can't understand English.


http://www.panasonic.co.jp/cs/japan/service/area.html

tohoho,

Yup I understand, since Panasonic Japan's customer support told me there is a lot. I need you to ask the "S97User" on the Japanese BBS the two questions I provided. Panasonic Japan want to know the answers from the "S97User" so if you can do so, that will be helpful.

Thanks

Sango

Originally posted by LiteUp!
LOL...Penton-Man...I hear ya!
You don't know how close I came to making a "political" comment when Bob Pariseau posted THIS on the Sony NS975 thread...
"Maybe they're just pulling them out of stores in Canada to re-ship them to where the demand is greater -- all those Sony trucks racing towards the US with products hastily stamped, "Suitable for Sale to Americans."

I found that comment to be poetic justice since the person that complained about my post wasn't even a Panny DVD player owner but an owner of the ill-fated Sony NS975.
:D

tohoho,

I managed to post a message on the BBS site in English (don't know if he can read English). Hopefully the S97User will respond.

Sango

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow


Penton-Man, did you get your S97's firmware updated?

Paul
No, I haven't because I explicitly told my servicer to hold off for awhile until he could get some info on the 540 firmware.

Also, honestly, I'm a bit hesitant to even install the 536 version on my own because I'm not sure that Panasonic simply did cosmetic changes to cure the MB issue at the expense of P/Q......and MB was never an issue for me to begin with....

So, I'm just holding on for a few days more to see what shakes out.

I will tell you this, my servicer told me that Chris or Kris ? (your guy) should try to be a bit more persistent if he is to be successful in getting the new firmware.

Originally posted by Sango
tohoho,

Yup I understand, since Panasonic Japan's customer support told me there is a lot. I need you to ask the "S97User" on the Japanese BBS the two questions I provided. Panasonic Japan want to know the answers from the "S97User" so if you can do so, that will be helpful.

Thanks

Sango

In my case, I called Tokyo local service center(TEL:03-5477-9780) and servicer came to my home and brought back my S97. I will try to post your question on following Japanese BBS(My name at this site is tohoho111). But there are small population unlike this forum, so please wait for not expected to your answer.

BBS site:
http://www.kakaku.com/bbs/Main.asp?BBSTabNo=2&CategoryCD=2025&ItemCD=202535&MakerCD=65&Product=DVD%2DS97

Hello to everybody!
I have change firmware yesterday from 528 to 536 for apprx. 2 minutes.

I was waiting unlocking the region only 5 (Russia) to multi. No.No.No.....
As I understand it possible to make with "special service man"or by usage of special remote control. I have seen in internet offers for 25-30 $ for remote control - u can buy it.

It will cost for me in Russia -10$ (not big add value)

Welcome to the forums!!

Ah you're talking about the special chipped remote.

I posted a link about it on post #263.

Sango

Yes. Special chipped remote.

Originally posted by Penton-Man
No, I haven't because I explicitly told my servicer to hold off for awhile until he could get some info on the 540 firmware.

Also, honestly, I'm a bit hesitant to even install the 536 version on my own because I'm not sure that Panasonic simply did cosmetic changes to cure the MB issue at the expense of P/Q......and MB was never an issue for me to begin with....

So, I'm just holding on for a few days more to see what shakes out.

I will tell you this, my servicer told me that Chris or Kris ? (your guy) should try to be a bit more persistent if he is to be successful in getting the new firmware.

Does anyone else believe their overall PQ has decreased to cure MB after v536 has been installed?

Originally posted by Skarpachi
Does anyone else believe their overall PQ has decreased to cure MB after v536 has been installed?

I don't see much difference at all; PQ doesn't seem to have degraded.

No

Does anyone else believe their overall PQ has decreased to cure MB after v536 has been installed?

Does this $10 remote make it Region Free? If so, please provide a link.

Spasibo

Originally posted by P97UserAVS
Hello to everybody!
I have change firmware yesterday from 528 to 536 for apprx. 2 minutes.

I was waiting unlocking the region only 5 (Russia) to multi. No.No.No.....
As I understand it possible to make with "special service man"or by usage of special remote control. I have seen in internet offers for 25-30 $ for remote control - u can buy it.

It will cost for me in Russia -10$ (not big add value)

Sango, I believe there were initial thoughts that the unit plays PAL dvds (on the main thread). Has this been confirmed to be wrong?

Originally posted by Sango
zoro:

The unit doesn't any have NTSC <-> PAL capabilities.

Sango

Dazog,

Yes, it does pass the 3:2 Cadence Video Flags test (in Auto1 and Auto2 modes). Also Responsiveness and Recovery Time are greatly improved as well. I spent some time looking at Layer Change last night as well, and honestly, I couldn't tell a Layer Change occurred. I just ordered the new WHQL DVD Annex test disc from Microsoft and I have the same Oscilloscope Kris Deering uses for his measurements. I will check these definitively very soon (as I get some time). It appears right now that if you run the player in Auto2 mode, it is basically perfect except for the Incorrect Progressive Flags Test (which is a DVD mastering problem that is rare anyway). I know a word was put in a while back to Panasonic to fix the Progessive Flag test in Auto2 (it already passes in Auto1). We'll see if 540 fixes it. Now, the only thing that would be nice to get fixed is the Zoom picture quality. A note has been sent to them about that as well.
This player is starting to deserve a high 90's Secrets score, IMHO, especially now that the pink in B&W scenes and Macroblocking has been greatly reduced for people that were having those problems with their display. 85E536 seems to have done a lot of good.

Someone has recently complained that they saw some pixel cropping in 1080i vs. 720p. I checked that last night and did not see any at all. This may have been caused by their display. I have a Sanyo Z2 with the latest firmware.

Originally posted by Dazog
Can anyone check to see if this player passes the 3-2 Cadence, Video Flags
properly now

and if the Menu speed is faster and layer change is noticable with the new firmware.

Sango,

Can you ask your contact at Panasonic what features they actually have turned on in the Faroudja? For example, is TrueLife enabled? Panasonic doesn't seem to document any of this anywhere.

In case you are wondering what TrueLife is:

TrueLife™ by Faroudja

TrueLife™ enhancement uses two-dimensional, non-linear luma and chroma modification algorithms to enhance the small details and colors in images, and improve depth perception by sharpening large edges without introducing visual artifacts or distortion. The overall result is a richer, more pleasing, high-definition-like picture.

This is a feature in the FL2310 scaler/de-interlacer.

thank you for the quick responses

Penton-man,
My little joke in the Sony thread was not a political statement. Rather it was an allusion to one of the more egregious bits of market dumping that took place, oh, about 25 years ago -- the "Great French Wine Scandal".

France, as you probably know, has rather strict laws and regulations regarding the wine industry. Well it happened that in the late 80's a number of chateaus were having problems with partially spoiled batches of wine. Originally thought to be due to bad corks or possibly bad casks, it was eventually found out that the wine was actually being spoiled by out-gassing from the treated lumber and other building materials used to build new storage cellars -- which penetrated the casks and had unfortunate chemical consequences in the maturing wine. In any event, the wineries knew full well these batches of wine were no good, and that they couldn't get away with selling them in France.

And then some enterprising French reporter broke the "Scandal" when he discovered that much of this spoiled wine was being set aside in cases stamped (in French), "Suitable for Sale to Americans."
--Bob

Originally posted by svolman
Sango, I believe there were initial thoughts that the unit plays PAL dvds (on the main thread). Has this been confirmed to be wrong?

What I ment is that the unit doesn't have any conversion capabilities - the arrows pointing both directions is representing that.

Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Penton-man,
My little joke in the Sony thread was not a political statement.
I know, I know Bob.....never said it was.
And I enjoyed it when I read it.:)

Paul Bigelow -
Where exactly are you in your firmware quest?

I just got a call from my servicer saying that he got a CD in the mail from Panasonic and I could bring my player back in at my convenience.

Everything is under warranty because I got it in before the 90-day window.

I'm almost tempted just to install the file that was posted myself and save a trip back to the servicer...but the poor guy went thru alot just to get it for me and I would prefer to stay on good terms with these people as they are sort of a Mom and Pop business that really care about customer service.

He couldn't tell me from the CD what version firmware he was sent.

Penton-Man:

Bring in the unit now!! See what it is!

Sango

Geez Sango, I really don't think I can get it over there until Monday...sorry.

*tears* !!! j/k!!

Thought you had some free time since you're here =)

I guess it's up to Paul!

Penton-Man,

There is absolutely no way the servicer can find out what firmware version he was sent so you don't waste a trip out there?

I can speculate that the servicer doesn't have an S97 to put the firmware on and doesn't have a hex editor to look at the firmware.

Hello Penton-Man,

I'm in the same holding pattern I've been in for the last few days: Panasonic promises the servicer that that the firmware is being e-mailed as an attachment and the e-mail never arrives. I've called Panasonic and complained but as of today still nothing. It's a bit frustrating.

Paul

Originally posted by Sango
I can speculate that the servicer doesn't have an S97 to put the firmware on and doesn't have a hex editor to look at the firmware.
Correct.

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
Hello Penton-Man,

I'm in the same holding pattern I've been in for the last few days: Panasonic promises the servicer that that the firmware is being e-mailed as an attachment and the e-mail never arrives. I've called Panasonic and complained but as of today still nothing. It's a bit frustrating.

Paul
Well let him know that my guy actually got a CD in the mail - if you think that will help out the situation.

Penton-Man,

Just for good measure, you should ask him to give you a copy of that CD.....hehehe.

No. It should say "Excellent"!! (j/k)
It's suppose to say "GOOD".

It should like say "BAD" ahhaah!

Originally posted by LiteUp!
Penton-Man,

Just for good measure, you should ask him to give you a copy of that CD.....hehehe.
I did already.
There was a prolonged silence.

Then he mentioned something to the effect of a tiny snowball's chance in hell.

Then I said that I would probably make it back in with the player on Monday.

Panasonic emailed me the firmware but it's the 536!! At least it's something! =)

Sango,

Cool. This is encouraging, at least! Now maybe you can ask the same person if there is a 540?

As soon as the 540 hits i am going to pick up this player and ditch my 1910, Sounds like this player has overtaken my 1910 in all respects.

Just speculating, could it be possible that Panasonic is working on a final firmware and that the 540 will not be that one? Could it also be possible that
Panasonic USA does not want to install new firmware until all the fixes are made? Their reaction to the new firmware has been very strange.

Dazog and others, you probably won't be able to pick up the 97S. Amazon has the unit discontinued on their site. The 77S should be coming very soon.

Vanns had it in stock last Thursday ( I finally got an order in for one!), but when I checked today they were out again...

Amazon had it listed as well, via Vanns.

I just checked amazon.com and literally it says:

"This item is not stocked or has been discontinued."

From all I can see they actually never stocked this item, so no reason to worry. The S97 came out only a few months ago and Panansonic advertises it as it's "flagship model", and they seem very active improving the firmware, so I'm quite sure they haven't discontinued it yet and won't do it anytime soon (probably in a year or so, when they replace it with a new model).

The S77 looks like a lower priced (lower spec/quality) model to fill the gap between the s47 and the S97 in their range. It might be good enough for some people but I'm sure it won't be as good as the S97.

BTW it would be great if 'secrets' would retest the S97 with the new firmware, maybe someone should ask them? I think I email them soon, but surely the more people email them the more likely they will do it!

there is lots of stock in canada :)

Originally posted by Dazog
there is lots of stock in canada :)

could u send me some links to order thnx

futureshop and bestbuy in canada both carry it.

Careful about the rules!! Don't want the admin stepping in! =)

Hi,

Just updated my firmware and agree that the picture quality is better than before the update.

Just wondering - is everyone leaving the settings at stock for now?

I have mine set to normal picture and auto 2 processing.
I did not see that much of a difference between normal and cinema 2 (which I have heard others mention). Both Dynamic and Animation seemed too saturated with color.

What do you all have yours set to?

Thanks,

Jeff

I posted this before. I saw the S77 at the CES show. According to Panasonic it has the same specs as the 97S. I do not think it comes with a cable. I questioned three people about the differences at CES and one person even compared specs. He told me they have the same specs. We will not know for sure until the manual is available on the Panasonic site. The units look the same but it was impossible to open the 77S. The 97S was not on display at CES.

Hey all -

More updates.

After watching Empire Strikes Back a few weeks ago, I was starting to feel pretty disappointed in my 97S. After flashing the 536 firmware about a week ago, I finally had time on Friday to sit down and watch a full movie (which happened to be Return of the Jedi).

ROTJ looked so much better than Empire. True, I wasn't comparing the exact same disc...but as they come on the same box set I would assume that the encoding is pretty much the same.

The dark scenes in Jabba's Palace and the Death Star looked great. Space scenes looked very clean. This was a huge difference from what it looked like back when I watched Empire. It seemed like there was always "noise in space" and other things that didn't belong in the dark scenes. (Picture noise inside of the "shadow areas" in a shot)

The image was still razor sharp. I am very pleased thus far with the change in firmware from Panasonic. If they are still working on it (which it looks like we are under the assumption that they are with all of the possible 540 news), then I look forward to the additional improvements.

ROTJ looked so much better than Empire. True, I wasn't comparing the exact same disc...but as they come on the same box set I would assume that the encoding is pretty much the same.

Based on my viewing -- and nearly everyone else's -- Empire has the best transfer of the boxset. It's virtually reference quality. Jedi is actually the weakest of the three -- looking more 'flat' than the other two movies.

However, I haven't viewed these movies on my new set-up, so maybe my opinion would change.

I posted this in the other Panasonic thread, since Fry's seems to be the only ones who have this unit.

Was wondering, do you guys think its worth what they are asking?

Thanks.

Originally posted by rwestley
I posted this before. I saw the S77 at the CES show. According to Panasonic it has the same specs as the 97S.

Post edited:


HDMI is listed for the S77 on the panasonic website.

JCPZero

Originally posted by DavidHir
Based on my viewing -- and nearly everyone else's -- Empire has the best transfer of the boxset. It's virtually reference quality. Jedi is actually the weakest of the three -- looking more 'flat' than the other two movies.

However, I haven't viewed these movies on my new set-up, so maybe my opinion would change.

Wow. That is good to hear because that most likely means that 536 really did make a *huge* difference. :)

I burned the firmware to cd and put it in the player but all that is displayed is "play"? What am I doing wrong?

I did the same thing and got the same results. I then connected the player to the TV and the proper screens came up to respond to!

Dick

Ahhhhh, that did it. Thanks man.

Skarpachi,

Have you had a chance to update to the newer firmware yet? If so, what is your take on it? I'm especially interested since you and I have the same tv/dvd player combo.

deessel,

Yes, I updated to v536 Friday night; however, I haven't had a chance to re-calibrate yet. For the time being, I just put the settings back to what they were prior to the update. The big test for me was the 3rd scene in "Ronin" where the macroblocking was horrible with v528. The macroblocking is still apparant with v536, but not quite as bad. I will report more once I re-calibrate and watch additional movies.

For those who also have the Sammy HLP5063/Panasonic DVD-S97 combination and have updated to v536, what are your adjusted settings?

After the updated and watching many previous movies, I have to say that the picture is softer on my display. I have to increase the shaprness to +2 to see or feel the same like before the upgraded. However, the color seems more natural than before.

lnguyen,

I believe they fixed a bit of the edge enhancement in 720p and 1080i that was there in 528, so the picture might appear a bit softer (as it should to be correct). Did you go back to all of the settings you had in the player prior to the upgrade (since they were reset)? I have looked at the edge enhancement using DVE and some patterns.....it now appears more accurate than before....but definitely not "soft" in any way. I run at 720p since my Z2 LCD projector is 720p native (1280x720).

Circled back with Panasonic today. Still no indication of another firware revision beyond v536, nor have there been any bulletins to service staff other than v536. Starting to sound like v540 got out prematurely or unintentionally in Japan. Probably more testing going on with Faroudja. Those of you still with v528 and holding out for 540 may have a much longer wait than we thought. Learn to live with 536 for a while is my take on it

Originally posted by LiteUp!
lnguyen,

I believe they fixed a bit of the edge enhancement in 720p and 1080i that was there in 528, so the picture might appear a bit softer (as it should to be correct). Did you go back to all of the settings you had in the player prior to the upgrade (since they were reset)? I have looked at the edge enhancement using DVE and some patterns.....it now appears more accurate than before....but definitely not "soft" in any way. I run at 720p since my Z2 LCD projector is 720p native (1280x720).

Yes, I did recalibarte by using THX disk (include with finding Nemo). the picture seems smoother, not tack sharp like before. However, the picture is beautiful, natural, and kick as..:p

Originally posted by rwestley
Just speculating, could it be possible that Panasonic is working on a final firmware and that the 540 will not be that one? Could it also be possible that
Panasonic USA does not want to install new firmware until all the fixes are made? Their reaction to the new firmware has been very strange.


Correct, they don't want people taking their machines to the service center every month for a firmware update...after all this IS a business that they're running. It would cost them way too much for that. Each trip will cost them $$$. In fact, a couple of trips by you to the service center and they're in the red. It would have been cheaper for them to just give you the palyer for free!

Maybe *thats* why my servicer has had the player for two weeks! Five minute firmware update costs little, two-week service engagment is a lot more $$$. ;)

Paul

Well I took her in today for an oil change. I'm hoping for 045 weight but, I imagine I'll be getting 635W.

I didn't have time to stay at the center so I'll probably return back to pick her up on Wednesday or so.

Originally posted by jakeman
Circled back with Panasonic today. Still no indication of another firware revision beyond v536, nor have there been any bulletins to service staff other than v536. Starting to sound like v540 got out prematurely or unintentionally in Japan. Probably more testing going on with Faroudja. Those of you still with v528 and holding out for 540 may have a much longer wait than we thought. Learn to live with 536 for a while is my take on it
Not so sure that more testing is going on.
From what I hear they(meaning Panasonic U.S.A.) are pissed that we even KNOW about 635 W oil.

Why would Panasonic USA be upset? Because of hundreds and thousands of players needing an update? ;)

Paul

Penton:

If Panasonic is upset about us knowing this information. It's actualy we should be upset at them because of releasing the product which had issues!!
-----------------------

Hmm, I'm thinking of an idea... Trying to retro fit the direct drive motors to an RP82 to get rid of the error!!

"Why would Panasonic USA be upset? Because of hundreds and thousands of players needing an update? "

That's ALOT of oil changes!

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
Why would Panasonic USA be upset? Because of hundreds and thousands of players needing an update? ;)

Paul

Can we go with the lawsuit path, such as we will sue Panasonic if it does not fix the problems of the DVD-S97 (which is quite aware) or provide us with the required firmware updates?

Originally posted by Sango
Penton:

If Panasonic is upset about us knowing this information. It's actualy we should be upset at them because of releasing the product which had issues!!
-----------------------

Hmm, I'm thinking of an idea... Trying to retro fit the direct drive motors to an RP82 to get rid of the error!!

Sango,
We are all supposed to be YOUNG, DUMB, and full of C*M - God I hope that crazy Sony DVD player owner doesn't complain about this statement offending his sensibilites.:eek:

P.S.-
Please note that I reverse edited the weight of my oil changes in the post about 7 posts above.

Can we go with the lawsuit path, such as we will sue Panasonic if it does not fix the problems of the DVD-S97 (which is quite aware) or provide us with the required firmware updates?

But they are fixing what problem there is. Maybe not as quickly as we would like however this revision has been impressive when you look at it as a problem affecting all upconverting players. With this upgrade the s-97 PQ blows away far more expensive players. The problems with US service are unfortunate but isolated given the global reach of Panasonic. I agree someone at Panasonic US management is probably withholding the upgrade for economic reasons...so what... the firmware is available at this site anyway and I'm sure they are aware of it. Besides lets get realistic how does one sue for something so esoteric. Is your quality of life impaired over not getting a firmware upgrade from a service centre??

Not so sure that more testing is going on.

Definetly going on is what i'm told. v540 is probably not good enough.

I would definately recommend Panaosnic to re-introduce the XP/RP units with up-to-date support (still with FLI2200) and retro fitted into a S97 case or retaining the slim XP series!!

We all need to write to them about that!!
---

Jake, so Panasonic Canada hasn't recieved the 540 yet from what you mentioned earlier?

Sango

Yes Canadian service was not able to find posting of another revision other than 536. Seems like a test may have got out prematurely. It took 8 versions to get to 536 so I surmise 540 isn't up to the standard Japan wants for the next release. I'm checking regularly but no longer expecting anything soon.

WTF are you talking about? Sue over firmware in a $299.00 DVD player??? That's funny. Not to mention that this player is giving one of the best pictures to be had right now.

Originally posted by Onesimos
Can we go with the lawsuit path, such as we will sue Panasonic if it does not fix the problems of the DVD-S97 (which is quite aware) or provide us with the required firmware updates?

Paul and Penton-Man: Did you guys get info as to when ur getting your players? I have to make the decision of doing the firmware myself or sending the player to an authorized center. Am still catching up on all threads right now..after a week's vacation. Do US center have the latest firmwares?

Originally posted by mallu2u
Paul and Penton-Man: Did you guys get info as to when ur getting your players? I have to make the decision of doing the firmware myself or sending the player to an authorized center. Am still catching up on all threads right now..after a week's vacation. Do US center have the latest firmwares?

Let me save you some reading time.
I just took my player in today. Didn't have time to wait for the upgrade.

I plan to pick her up on Wed.- as I'm not in the area until then.
I don't expect to get any version later than 536 - as according to Jake the 540 firmware may be a ways off.

I would say at this point, if you have no trouble installing it yourself...go for it...as it will save you a trip to your local service center.....and you'll probably end up getting the exact same thing Paul and I will get.

Alright thanks. Man, so much activity in just one week. I just downloaded the firmware. Will read the instructions and perhaps upgrade tomorrow. So far, all is positive for US players, right? Any special steps, considerations?

OK...so I finally got around to measuring some Layer Change times tonight. I compared the S97 to my Panny DVD-H1000 and XP30 with the latest 302 firmware in it. Here is what I saw on the oscilloscope:

DVD-S97 (v536): 1.20 sec.
XP30 (v302): 1.04 sec.
DVD-H1000: 1.84 sec.

I haven't received my new WHQL DVD Test Annex CD from Microsoft (any day now), so I used my high bit-rate Pearl Harbor Special Edition 2-disc set to check it and compare to the Secrets/hometheaterhifi.com results. The layer break is at 1:07:47. I checked all players numerous times to make sure I got the same results over and over. I also checked the S97 in 480p, 720p, and 1080i modes to see if there was a difference (all identical times of 1.20 sec.). That 302 firmware in the XP30 realy did speed up Layer change times (Kris Deering measured 1.75 sec. with older firmware). He measured 1.5 sec with the v528 S97 firmware. I can't say of we had the same firmware in the H1000's, but he measured 1.75 sec. and I got 1.84 (pretty close, so this test disc must be a good representation/comparison).

The Denon 3910 uses the Faroudja FL2310 as well, and has posted the fastest layer changes using it so far at 0.5 sec. (as tested by Secrets). The 2910 did 1.0 sec. So 1.2 sec. for the S97 is pretty close and damn good for a 300.00 player.....but we know they can get it down to 0.5 sec., at least.

I measured this by triggering on the analog audio outputs on the player (they clip to silence just during the layer change). I recorded the length of the period of silence on the oscilloscope and measured it with the screen markers. I was using 400msec./division to have enough granularity.

I'll check this again when we get the next release of firmware using the same disc....and the WHQL disc as well.

****************************************************

UPDATE AFTER RECEIVING MY WHQL TEST DISC:

This test was run using the same test disc Secrets uses.

DVD-S97S (f/w: 85E536): 0.94 seconds

DVD-XP30 (f/w: 65H302): 1.12 seconds

DVD-H1000: 1.61 seconds

The WHQL test disc uses a worst case higher bit rate MPEG encoding (~10 Mbps), but the swipe across the disc may be a different physical length to get back to the continuing portion of the video stream. This accounts for the different results from the original test movie above, but the WHQL disc test results should compare directly with the Secrets Benchmark results. This way you can compare to see the direct improvement in the new firmware.

"Alright thanks. Man, so much activity in just one week. I just downloaded the firmware. Will read the instructions and perhaps upgrade tomorrow. So far, all is positive for US players, right? Any special steps, considerations?"

You've either got to go back over the old threads or direct that question to Sango or others that may alert you to any potential pitfalls.

Originally posted by LiteUp!
WTF are you talking about? Sue over firmware in a $299.00 DVD player??? That's funny. Not to mention that this player is giving one of the best pictures to be had right now.
LOL…
How about “pain and suffering and preventing me from earning an income.”

You see your honor, I was so despondent over the fact that I saw macroblocking in my movies that I became exceedingly depressed. This led to alcoholism which then prevented me from being able to go to work. My lack of working resulted in a lost yearly income of $100,000 NOT to mention the personal suffering of having my wife leave me and she even took OUR dog with her. Plus that, with her leaving I haven’t had sex in a year!

All that because Panasonic gave me a player that showed MB on some scenes in my favorite movies!!!!!

Hey, maybe Onesimos brother or sister specializes in class action suits and can find 50 or so people with similar complaints. Then do the multiplication !!!!

I really shouldn’t talk because my sis is an upstanding attorney (actually served on the White House staff during the RR administration, David).

alright, just completed reading entire thread. Phew! So all one needs to do is burn this file on a disk using the Data disk option, and finalize CD. Then insert in the dvd player

Yes...just unzip the file and burn the .frm file to disk as you would a normal data file. Put it in the player and answer the first question it asks (Do you want to update?) as a YES, then sit back and wait about 5 minutes. You'll see some strange stuff on the screen while it is updating and resetting. It will tell you when it is finished and successful on the front display after it reboots when done. DO NOT TURN IT OFF IN THE MIDDLE OF THE UPDATE.

It's that easy. I would write down all of your settings in the player you want to keep. Part of the update process is to reset everything in the player to factory defaults, so you'll have to go back in and set it to Auto2, 720p, Normal/User mode, etc. for example. Factory default is 480i mode.

Originally posted by mallu2u
alright, just completed reading entire thread. Phew! So all one needs to do is burn this file on a disk using the Data disk option, and finalize CD. Then insert in the dvd player

Originally posted by Onesimos
Can we go with the lawsuit path, such as we will sue Panasonic if it does not fix the problems of the DVD-S97 (which is quite aware) or provide us with the required firmware updates?

I'm not pursuing a lawsuit. As I've stated before, I'm giving Panasonic a chance within their stated warranty (and which I agreed to by keeping the player) to provide remedy. I am seeking remedy by the method that is supported by Panasonic. Irritating? Yes. Has it taken time? Yes. Like it not, I have to give Panasonic a chance to suceed or fail. It's only been a little more than 90 days since the player hit the market and a lot less for others. I think a lot more time is going to have to pass until any lawsuit would be entertained (favorably) by the courts.

Paul

Originally posted by mallu2u
Paul and Penton-Man: Did you guys get info as to when ur getting your players? I have to make the decision of doing the firmware myself or sending the player to an authorized center. Am still catching up on all threads right now..after a week's vacation. Do US center have the latest firmwares?

I don't know what the service centers have. I looked up servicers through Panasonic's site via my zip code and picked the one that, in theory, is one of the three best servicers in my area. The other two are independents and are not warranty service centers.

Paul

Originally posted by Onesimos
Can we go with the lawsuit path, such as we will sue Panasonic if it does not fix the problems of the DVD-S97 (which is quite aware) or provide us with the required firmware updates?
If you choose not to install the firmware yourself as I guess just about everybody else here has choosen to do --- with the exception of Paul and myself - you can take your player into a service center and they WILL supply you with the latest firmware “eventually”.

They are obligated to do so if you take it in under the pretext of macroblocking being a warranty issue and you beat the 90- day window.

Panasonic U.S.A. apparently is just not advertising the fact.

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
I'm not pursuing a lawsuit.

I am seeking remedy by the method that is supported by Panasonic. Irritating? Yes. Has it taken time? Yes.

Like it not, I have to give Panasonic a chance to suceed or fail.

Paul
Paul Bigelow quote:
"Irritating? Yes. Has it taken time? Yes".

So here we arrive at the lawsuit stage. This problem exists for all players which which use Faroudja chips. I first noticed this picture noise and distortion in the original Samsung 931 DVI player, of which Ultimate Electronics took back. I guess I don't know the Secret why this player was ever rated highly either.
I spoke up against and even ridiculed Mr. Bigelow's false guidance earlier in this thread. I even mocked stores for charging hundreds over list price. Some posts were removed. :)
I did every thing I could possible do to stop the unexperienced from being led astray.
So for those who still bought into this unit, I say sit in your stew, and learn a lesson. Next time when you buy a defective product either return it or accept it as is. Even smarter don't even buy it to begin with...

Perhaps Paul could improve the accuracy of his original review, by adding his own "Irritating" quote?

BTW Paul, Panasonic already had their chance, like it or not.
Sorry if you find this post "Irritating" too.

Such sweet justice,

Thank you for the big smile:):)

Wow...Intense.......MB has caused me a prescription for Cialis..LOL..or is this C.S.I. Panasonic?

First to Sango and crew for the firmware and detailed R & D, Thank you. Paul....your stuff is good. The Sony review as well. I would not have any Panny equipment if not for you guys.

I am returning my s97, with the upgrade, for a new one because of my unit shutting off occasionally when closing the tray. I will check what version of firmware the new one has before i even plug in my settings and recalibrate.

I know that 97.324 % of the firmware upgrade reports are positive.

I think there is distinct difference in the picture before and after the upgrade. (I am using component connection to a Toshiba 57hx81. All Monster connections)

After 1 week with the new firmware (started at previous settings of course) I think the pic is softened. I see very minor smudge in detail and color borders occasionally. Edges, text and rolling credits do not seem as razor sharp as before.

Background detail and smaller distance shots, such as the arena in Gladiator from the emperor chair, was sharper and more stable in the older firmware.

I also think that the pic is not as punchy or vivid. BUT i still love it. The flesh tone colors, depth and detailare better in the old firmware. I used the new 5th Element, Vertical Limit sb and Behind Enemy Lines to judge. The new 5th Element blew me away(compared to 1st superbit ver) when I first played it on v528, not as dramatic when viewed in v536.

I really have not decided if I prefer the mb "plagued" pic or the somewhat cleaner pic. I tend to lean to the old version and think that a superb fix is still yet to come.

But "Lawrence of Arabia" rocks and I am glad there are fans in this forum....My favorite all time.

Bladerunner

Reincarnate, tell me a better shipping player.

Bladerunner,

You can turn the sharpness up on the player if you like, but you'll be adding information to the picture that wasn't there to begin with. Some people were turning down the sharpness on the original firmware because of edge enhancement.

I guess I am lucky I don't have any macroblocking with my display. It seems like the people that are complaining about macroblocking are ones that are not running the player at the native resolution of their display. Of course, if you have a tube TV/analog display, there is no native resolution and nothing you can really do.

There may also be some people that are looking at film grain and calling it macroblocking, when it is actually something encoded on the disc that they have never seen before.

The good thing is this player has so many adjustments, you can turn the picture into anything you want.

Originally posted by LiteUp!
There may also be some people that are looking at film grain and calling it macroblocking, when it is actually something encoded on the disc that they have never seen before.


Funny you say that. I had originally posted a question about the film grain and was told it was macroblocking. Seemed very hard to believe, but since no one disagreed, I went along with the "experts".

So the film grain is encoded into the disc? Anyway to negate this? What will I be sacrificing by removing the grain? Thanks.

Sharpness would be sacrificed. You can see this by using the component out on the player and comparing to HDMI. The component out is not as sharp since there is an path of D/A-A/D that has to occur and some detail is lost in the transition/conversion (assuming you have a digital monitor like a DLP/LCD). You can also try experimenting with some of the MPEG DNR settings in the player. There is a good explanation of the three types of DNR that are available on the first post of the S97 brain dump thread. I have all of mine set to 0 though....and I have a native 720p LCD front projector (Z2).

Originally posted by bojangling
So the film grain is encoded into the disc? Anyway to negate this? What will I be sacrificing by removing the grain? Thanks.

You see your honor, I was so despondent over the fact that I saw macroblocking in my movies that I became exceedingly depressed. This led to alcoholism which then prevented me from being able to go to work. My lack of working resulted in a lost yearly income of $100,000 NOT to mention the personal suffering of having my wife leave me and she even took OUR dog with her. Plus that, with her leaving I haven’t had sex in a year!


Very funny Penton. Didn't I see you on comedy central recently?

So here we arrive at the lawsuit stage. This problem exists for all players which which use Faroudja chips. I first noticed this picture noise and distortion in the original Samsung 931 DVI player, of which Ultimate Electronics took back.

Regarding lawsuit. What are you going to sue for? A non-functioning dvd player? Does it play DVD's? Check. Do all the outputs work as advertised? Check. Does it upconvert as advertised? Check.

The macroblocking is not a failure of the product but a side effect of the chip. Are you going to sue your cable company everytime you get a pixelated feed of a channel? How about you go sue the maker of your toaster the next time it burns toast.

Fellow S97Sers,

Wanted to share my S97S experiences to date.

I purchased a S97S about 5 weeks ago and I have been looking for macroblocking effects black images. Either I am blind to this effect, or I just lucked out. Black images are crisp and without distortion.

My unit has the old firmware 85E528 and was manufactured in September 2004.

I called Panasonic USA immediately after my purchase to get a case number and ask for the firmware upgrade, and experienced the same "Panasonic treatment" reported by other AVS members in the US.

htboy,

Macroblocking is display dependant. What kind of display do you have?

Well if MB is an issue for you or you think that it will ever become an issue then take the player into a local service center and have THEM but Panny for the latest firmware.

Dealing with the people on the 800# is often fruitless.

This back and forthness about the picture quality being better, then being worse is taking its toll on me. I guess I will not be upgrading for now since no side has proven the update is really significant, especially for someone like me who is ignorant (by choice! and to keep my sanity!) to all that is MB.

Originally posted by jakeman
Very funny Penton. Didn't I see you on comedy central recently?
I just thought the thread needed some comic relief.:D

LiteUp-
I’ve got a question for you as my player is at the local center and this may save me time and energy in moving my display out yet AGAIN to change connections and she is quite a burden to move around.

As I’ve stated before MB was never really as issue to me – just keep that in mind. The pink thing was slightly irritating.

I’m hooking up to a display that accepts 1080i and I THINK the video processor inside my TV bobs down and then up to eventually give me a 1080p picture which is divine. I’m still trying to get a straight answer from the powers to be on that technical aspect.

So, without having to do A/B comparisons to see if the scaler in the TV is better than the scaler in the DVD player, if you had to guess…what will give me a better pic to begin with?

480i via component into the TV …..or –
1080i via HDMI into the TV.

I think I posed this question to Paul awhile back but he may have missed it.
Any help, even theoretical predications would be appreciated.

Penton-Man,

What model TV/display do you have?

Originally posted by LiteUp!
Yes...just unzip the file and burn the .frm file to disk as you would a normal data file. Put it in the player and answer the first question it asks (Do you want to update?) as a YES, then sit back and wait about 5 minutes. You'll see some strange stuff on the screen while it is updating and resetting. It will tell you when it is finished and successful on the front display after it reboots when done. DO NOT TURN IT OFF IN THE MIDDLE OF THE UPDATE.

It's that easy. I would write down all of your settings in the player you want to keep. Part of the update process is to reset everything in the player to factory defaults, so you'll have to go back in and set it to Auto2, 720p, Normal/User mode, etc. for example. Factory default is 480i mode.

Thanks Liteup!

Penton-Man,

I *think* I answered that question in a PM. The question is highly display dependent. In my case the display looks best with *everything* at 1080i (no 720p at all, as was the case with Panasonics at the time). Despite all its other wonderful qualities, the Panasonic TC-22LH1's scaler is not the best -- it only does a mediocre job of scaling 480i/p to the display's native resoluiton, introducing jagged diagonal lines (it's not terrible, but pales in comparision to what it can do with 1080i). So, I feed in 1080i every time and *with this display* 1080i is clearly the winner.

In the case of the 006 -- that's another story. Feeding it 480i bypasses the S97's deinterlacer and scaler and everything then rests on the Sony -- which may not be a bad idea -- it just depends on the Sony's capabilities. As for 1080i benefits/penalties, it's probably going to come down to what "looks best". Have a run through with the DVE's MPEG test and have a look at the ICP tests, the red and blue trianges, and other patterns on that page to see how 480i/p vs. 1080i holds up. Keep in mind that there is some loss in resolution with the S97 in "pillarbox" mode.

Paul

Originally posted by LiteUp!
Penton-Man,

What model TV/display do you have?
Sony Qualia 006........da bomb !

Thanks Paul, if I got the PM - I must have inadvertently deleted it after shortly opening it up because I don't remember your PM.

LiteUp - any input?

Penton,

Since your display is 1080 native, I would try 1080i first. The best way to go is to minimize scaling to the least number of times possible and keep the signal path all digital/HDMI....so you can send 1080i to the 006 and let the S97 take care of the scaling (knowing that it has a good one). The second thing I would try is sending 480P (instead of 480i) so you can use the Faroudja DCDi in the S97 and still use HDMI for a sharper pure digital image all the way. This would let your 006 do the scaling.

One of these two options (both over HDMI) would probably give you the best picture IMHO. Remember, in 1080i, the 006 will still have to do the de-interlacing to get up to 1080p. Too bad the S97 will not send 1080p! Hehehe.....

Just received new Panasonic S97S this afternoon. Was ordered from Vanns.com last week when their shipment of back orders came in.

This unit is manufacture in September 2004 and came loaded with firmware version 528. So much for waiting on the new shipments having the upgraded firmware.

I am going to wait until I have tried a few DVD's out before upgrading.

LiteUp-

Great pick-up on the moniker!
You're the first to have asked.

Originally posted by nothru22
Reincarnate, tell me a better shipping player.
Nice challenge. It is much easier (and fun) to criticize than to be constructive!

Panasonic has a darn good player with the one fatal flaw - namely their selection of the 2310 (F word) chip. This player even allows for setting of RGB YCbCr (4:4:4) YCbCr (4:2:2)
HDMI RGB Range (page 17, HDMI tab) is available when RGB is selected
and HDMI RGB Range
Set HDMI Color Space to RGB ( page 14, Picture Menu) .
Standard or Enhanced: When the black and white images are not distinct.

The question is: has Panasonic learned its lesson or not? That is, will (the April launch of) the 77 player still use the fatal 2310 or not?

I beleive that latest firmware "upgrade" simply uses less 2310 digital enhancement. Take your pick: tack Sharp (artificial?) with noise or average with less noise. Neither is a long-term solution.

It all comes down to buying into technology at the right time. High resolution digital audio and video transmission are full of incompatibility issues, many of which have yet to even be discovered.
For example I just switched over to cable (for VOIP and high speed Internet). The Scientific Atlanta 8000HD receiver has an HDMI output. My Sony HS20 projector has an HDMI input. Was the pure digital signal correct? NO! The 8000HD generated ONLY 16-235 (limited range) digital signals. The Sony HS20 would not translate either. So here, HDMI offers no improvement over DVI.
No reason to be mad - I just returned the 8000HD receiver for a 3250HD and use the HD component outputs.

Digital signals are still NOT immune from noise and distortion. Achieving a crystal clear picture is difficult with analog or digital. This includes component filtering, isolation from the power-line, cable-line, and from each other. And perfect coordinated timing of the frames signals.

The focus for the here and now should be on the many quality analog ~$100 players. That is until the coming (fourth quarter) HD players leave all existing units in the dust. Those who disagree can buy the Denon 5910, which no doubt is a bargin at $3500:D

Originally posted by reincarnate
Nice challenge. It is much easier (and fun) to criticize than to be constructive!... . Those who disagree can buy the Denon 5910, which no doubt is a bargin at $3500:D

Now there's a devil's advocate if I've ever seen one. Forget the fl2310 and let them eat cake with the denon 5910! Great logic.

...but I think the real question is "show me a better player for 500.00 or less"? Even though this is a 300.00 player...hehehe.

I've upgraded my firmware to 536.
I recalibrated the display settings using DVE.
Then I tested three DVDs which I've seen the worst instances of MB.
Anime DVDs from Geneon which have the logo with smoke at the beginning (Last Exile, R.O.D. TV, etc).
Dances with Wolves Chapter 8 at 47:31-41 looking at the background behind Kevin Costner.
Master and Commander scene in the beginning where ship emerges from fog.
All of this I was watching on a Samsung DLP via HDMI.

I didn't notice any appreciable improvement in 720p or 1080i. It looked all the same to me. I even reset the DVD player, but still no improvement. I next tried watching in 480p and it was there that the MB seemed to almost disappear, but not entirely. It was definitely viewable. The problem is that I never watched it in 480p with the 528 firmware, so I don't know if it improved any.

I'm still pretty disappointed. I was hoping to see some improvement. If 480p is all the s97 is going to be able to do well, it's not much help- I already have a xp50 with excellent 480p output. What I would like is the improvement that an upconverting player will bring me so I could run it at 720p.

I wonder if there's something I'm missing since so many people have reported significant improvements with the 536 firmware. Or is it the upscaler in the S97 that's not working? If 480p looks good, but not 720p or 1080i....?
Any ideas?

chairmantao, did you confirm that the player upgraded correctly by checking the firmware?

Thats strange. Take a look at the following pic taken from Brother Bear. As I mentioned in the Brian Dump thread this movie has become my reference DVD for macroblocking. This DVD made me into a believer as the movie was unwatchable!

Now this pic was shot at 480p over component. When I switched to 480i though macroblocking was visibly reduced but still around 40% to 50% of what I saw with 480p. I was expecting MB do be gone completely at 480i?

wolfman


Originally posted by nothru22
The faroudja isn't utilized in 480i at all as far as I know.

Originally posted by reincarnate
Nice challenge. It is much easier (and fun) to criticize than to be constructive!

Geez, unless you’ve entered seminary school and turned over a new leaf since you last graced us with your presence – isn’t that sort of like the pot calling the kettle black!

Originally posted by reincarnate

So here we arrive at the lawsuit stage.

We were jooooking !

Since you took us seriously, allow me to provide you with an update.

I (I meaning one of the plaintiffs in the class action against Panasonic U.S.A.) have directed my attorney to have my case “dismissed with prejudice” without delay. In layman’s speak that mean “drop the lawsuit now”.

If you recall, a couple pages back, I mentioned that the MB in my Panny DVD player has left me unhappy with my DVD’s, unemployed, without a companion and sexually frustrated.

In regards to the later, well one thing led to another, or…. one hand led to another -so to speak, and ……you guessed it…I have become visually impaired! My Mum was right all along about the dirty deed.

So, how do you ask has this led to me dropping my lawsuit?
Well my friends the above has led to a bonanaza!

1. Because of my decreased visual acuity, I no longer see MB on any of my movies !

2. I got my job back (an Inspector on the assembly line for a product that I can not divulge on this forum) and my Supervisor has been so happy with my numbers that I got a raise and I am now making $150,000 a year!

3. I got a new dog and he watches all my DVD’s with me….even the shoot-em-ups like Black Hawk Down – which my wife refused to watch.

4. What about my wife you ask ? Well she left me for good – for a rodeo rider from Calgary but, the thing is, he’s got a great collection of DVHS tapes and we regularly trade tapes in the mail!!

Sooooo…….. I’m now one happy, rich, sexually satisfied videophile with a great dog and a friend that’s willing to trade 1080i tapes in the mail!!!!
And all because of my Panny DVD player !!!!!!!

Anyone get the impression that everybody is bidding their time on this and the main Panny player thread waiting for Paul to get the new firmware so he can do one of his super duper evaluations?

C’mon Paul, have your servicer get with it, I’m running out of material here.

Originally posted by LiteUp!
htboy,

Macroblocking is display dependant. What kind of display do you have?

I am using a Panasonic AE700U LCD front projector on a 110" screen.

htboy,

I would agree with you that you probably are not going to see any macroblocking. I have a Sanyo PLV-Z2 with a 100" screen and have never had a problem with MB either. I run at 720p, of course. I have yet to hear of any MB complaints with this player and Panny AE500/700 or Sanyo Z2/Z3. They are very similar to one another.

To back up what LiteUp just posted. I have the 97S and the AE700 and have never experience macroblocking. As it has been stated many times the problem is display dependent.

I'll third that.
I've got a Qualia 006 and have yet to see significant macroblocking. The ONLY reason I am pursuing the firmware upgrade is IN CASE I use this DVD player with another display in the future as I eventually plan to purchase a Blu-ray unit.

LiteUp -

Geez, is that a reference to the weed....or your spark arrestor going haywire on the local vegitation?

Got your PM and will reply shortly.

updating the firmware as I speak right now. Msg says pretty clearly that "Updating has started. The television may appea unusual during this process but this is normal". LCD on DVD player reads UPDATE. After 2 mins or so, player restarts and now says "Completed. Please eject the disk". Wow. That easy. Now player updated to 536. Thanks for Larr for obtaining the firmware and to Sango, Liteup and others for constant updates on the process.

LOL..no..no weed...at least not right now.

My screen name is a carry over from the CDFreaks CD/DVD Forums. I frequently post in the LiteOn Drive forum (hence LiteUp!). You're crazy Penton-Man....LOL.


Originally posted by Penton-Man
LiteUp -

Geez, is that a reference to the weed....or your spark arrestor going haywire on the local vegitation?

Got your PM and will reply shortly.

Did not see the difference in layer change times being better. Still seems to be the same to me. Cannot report back on MB currently since I am using component and MB is more prominent on HDMI

Originally posted by Massimo N
chairmantao, did you confirm that the player upgraded correctly by checking the firmware?

Yes, after I flashed the player, I checked the firmware version pressing [PAUSE] + [OPEN] + [7 on the remote] and it gave the last three digits as 536.

Is is possible that it could read 536 but not be flashed? Or do I have to do something else in order to "activate" the new firmware?

Originally posted by LiteUp!
You're crazy Penton-Man....LOL.
O.O.C. - had sewn on the back of my jersey for a few years before sponsors ruined my initiative.

P.M. - finally responded to.

O.O.C. - Out Of Control, of course.

I have never see MB on my S97 and AE700..


Penton-Man - Thank You Sir - You made this thread so entertain to read. :)

Yup it's already been discovered. However it only works for the S97 case, not all other models.

Originally posted by jakeman
Now there's a devil's advocate if I've ever seen one. Forget the fl2310 and let them eat cake with the denon 5910! Great logic.
You have stumbled upon my sense of humor. Touche!
Another smile day.:cool:

Again:
The question is: has Panasonic learned its lesson or not? That is, will (the April launch of) the 77 player still use the fatal 2310 or not????

Originally posted by LiteUp!
htboy,

I would agree with you that you probably are not going to see any macroblocking. I have a Sanyo PLV-Z2 with a 100" screen and have never had a problem with MB either. I run at 720p, of course. I have yet to hear of any MB complaints with this player and Panny AE500/700 or Sanyo Z2/Z3. They are very similar to one another.

I have the a friend with an AE700, and he didn't have any macroblocking that I could detect (and he hasn't upgraded the firmware).

On my Sony HS51 projector, I had very bad macroblocking until the firmware upgrade. Now, I can detect very little, if any.

who have performed a shootout with this Panna S97 and a Momitsu V880.

I'm planning to replace my Momitsu but not really sure if there is any significant improvement if using the Panna. Though on audio I believe the Panna is to prefer..

Using Benq 8700+ as display device.

Anyone who can comment?

Penton-Man,

I hear you. I've escalated (again) yesterday with Panasonic and they stated I would receive a callback within 24 hours (around 12PM CST). If no callback, the player will then be retrieved and updated. Just a few more jokes are needed! ;)

karlceasar,

Please read the first post of the Panasonic S97 FAQ thread. There is a comparison to the Momitsu V880 (not the DX version). The Momitsu isn't perfect either, but it does have some compelling features and performance that make it a reasonable choice.

Paul

Originally posted by LiteUp!
htboy,

I would agree with you that you probably are not going to see any macroblocking. I have a Sanyo PLV-Z2 with a 100" screen and have never had a problem with MB either. I run at 720p, of course. I have yet to hear of any MB complaints with this player and Panny AE500/700 or Sanyo Z2/Z3. They are very similar to one another.

Is the S97S macro-blocking problem an issue for non-LCD front projectors? I wonder why that might be the case? Does anyone have information about why MB is only on some type of displays?

Thanks
Dave

Originally posted by htboy
Is the S97S macro-blocking problem an issue for non-LCD front projectors? I wonder why that might be the case? Does anyone have information about why MB is only on some type of displays?

Thanks
Dave

Just a guess, but I suspect it has more to do with distance (screen size) vs brightness of the projector and how the lighwave diffuses. In other words, if you project to a much smaller screen distance (say 3~4 ft), you'll probably notice MB. With projection distance being much further for 100" or more, the details and localized contrast is less noticable.

BTW, picked up Sharktale for the kids and put it on last night on S97. This disk must be one of the finest CGI transfer to date. Absolutely no MB, unlike most of Pixar's transfer of their animation, and image quality is spectacular. Its sharp, fine details and vivid colors - wow!

This is a good question for Genesis/Faroudja and Panasonic. However, some are thinking that it is an electronic signaling/interface anomaly between the FL2310 and the DVI interface/scaler/deinterlacer in various displays, since not all use the same components. Also, it seems to be a common thread that people who are sending a non-native upconverted resolution to their display have even more of a problem with it (because their display has to rescale it again and exaggerates the artifacts). This would include traditional tube HDTV's.

Screen size doesn't seem to have much to do with it (mine is 100" and I don't have MB problems). My display (Z2) is 1280x720 native (720p) and I run the S97 at 720p, as I should.

Originally posted by karlceasar
who have performed a shootout with this Panna S97 and a Momitsu V880.

I'm planning to replace my Momitsu but not really sure if there is any significant improvement if using the Panna. Though on audio I believe the Panna is to prefer..

Using Benq 8700+ as display device.

Anyone who can comment?

I have - Check this thread out with screenshots -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=499759

Originally posted by reincarnate
You have stumbled upon my sense of humor. Touche!
Another smile day.:cool:

Again:
The question is: has Panasonic learned its lesson or not? That is, will (the April launch of) the 77 player still use the fatal 2310 or not????

Yes I like your humour but your reasoning regarding the chip falls somewhat short. FL2310 is a state of the art chip for an upconverting player and the fact that Panasonic is continuing to test it to improve performance speaks well to their commitment to us, their customers. Sure we could be stoic and wait for the hd-dvd players but why deprive oneself of the terrific PQ from the s-97 until then. Though I could afford one, there is no way I would shell out $3,500 bucks for the denon 5910 when the hd players are expected within the year. And there is no way anyone could convince me that the difference in PQ is worh an extra $3,200.

My plasma contains the FL2310 as well and I have seen little macroblocking or other scaling artifacts. I thought it was great before v536 and I concluded after testing that it was improved but I expect more from Panasonic in the next upgrade. Presumably the s-77 will have the same chip but with better firmware and without the hdmi cable. I suppose we will have access to the same firmware in April so I am not too concerned about it. Sure can't conclude it' s "fatal"based on my assessment. Quite the contrary. I also read your diatribe in the dvd shootouts thread recently and think you went over the top there as well but that's another story and I appreciate where your coming from.

I read somewhere someone said that there is no way a firmware would solved the MB issue, is this true?

Lucky for me and other S97 and AE700 owners, we don't have MB issue :)
But we do have VB issue though :(
Baja

Baja,

Hard to say. If datasheets were available on the FLI-2310 it might be easier to analyze and make some conjectures. Until then, most of what has been speculated has been with many visual observations. The Denon 5900 thread went through the mill on this issue.

It might be there are some firmware changes that can help and it might be just as true that there is a design issue with the chip that will always make it susceptible to MB.

I don't have a big issue with MB and it appears rarely only on certain discs. If I had to rank the S97's problems with my LCD display I would put "pink tint" first and MB second.

Paul

Originally posted by vonzoog
Just received new Panasonic S97S this afternoon. Was ordered from Vanns.com last week when their shipment of back orders came in.

This unit is manufacture in September 2004 and came loaded with firmware version 528. So much for waiting on the new shipments having the upgraded firmware.

I am going to wait until I have tried a few DVD's out before upgrading.

I ordered mine last Tuesday from OneCall, they had it on backorder as well. It just came today and has a manufacturing date sticker of January 2005. It did come with firmware version 536 as well. :D

Kothoga,

Excellent! At least Panasonic deems 536 worthy of including in manufacturing. I think this is the first report of 536 being in a factory assembled unit for the USA.

Paul

I know they did not change the remote on the 97S. As I previously posted the A77S even has the same remopte with no open tray button. I spoke to several people at CES about this but I don't know if anything will be done with the final version of the A77S

Paul,

Thank you for the clarification on the chip and MB issue. I also read somewhere that 3910 has less MB than 2910, if this is true, I'm thinking that different implementation and firmware can minimize the MB, if it can minimize the MB, then they can solve the MB problem, that mean it's not the chip; it's the firmware. I don't know, I'm just thinking. :)

pink tint -

Dang it!! :) you just introduce a new problem that I don't know about and I have to look for it. :) but is there a way to use DVE or set the color temperature etc etc to tune it out?

TIA

Baja

Originally posted by Kothoga
I ordered mine last Tuesday from OneCall, they had it on backorder as well. It just came today and has a manufacturing date sticker of January 2005. It did come with firmware version 536 as well. :D

Yeah I got mine from One Call today and it has a Jan 2005 build date on it. I'll check mine when I get it hooked up.
Jim

I picked my player up today from the service center.

85E536

Let's go Paul.

Hello,

Picked up my player yesterday. Panasonic actually sent the firmware to the servicer yesterday but the servicer didn't have a working CD burner on site so I scooped up the player and brought it home and updated it myself. Interesingly, the servicer indicated that updating the firmware myself did would not invalidate the warranty -- for whatever that's worth.

Stepping through DVE did not result in any changes to the display's or player's settings for this combination.

The following *early* impressions are derived from viewing with a Panasonic TC-22LH1 with HDMI->HDMI @ 1080i w/4:4:4, S97 Brightness +1, Contrast 0, Sharpness -1 :

In my short time experience with the update I don't think we have "home run", maybe a "double". Macroblocking, never a big issue for me, does seem reduced. The fade-in to the MGM lion on "Ben-Hur" appears to be free of the "splotchiness" as seen in the enhanced picture in the first post. Even the "pink tint" is reduced/elimanated as seen via the DVE gray scale steps/ramp patterns. However, I'm still seeing residual/random faint color tint on black and white material. The tint seems reduced in intensity but it is definitely not elimnated. I need to try some more black and white material. Downside to the fix? Haven't found one but haven't looked real hard yet, either.

Penton-Man, "Lawrence..." still looks spectacular!

These are initial impressions and I need to do much more viewing to characterize this update.

Paul

Paul, now that you have your s97 back, which player would you be more inclined to choose, the s97 or the 975 ?

Hello,

This is my first post here, please do not pay attention to my english, I'm french! I have to begin by thank you all for the downloadable firmware 85E536. I've updated my player successfully, still zone free. Checking for improvements, I've seen less of this pink tint in grey tints, and less global video noise (connected with component on a little dlp xga projector). For me it remains a little bit of this pink tint and i was checking this thread often for another update. So, Is there really a future 85E540 version?

thanks.

Hello Bluenote

One does exist in Japan but has not been made available glabally by Panasonic. My sources indicated that v540 does not represent the solution Panasonic was looking for and likely will never be made available though we can expect another update sometime.

Paul did you notice any difference in layer change times? I did not.

Originally posted by jakeman
Yes I like your humour
Though I could afford one, there is no way I would shell out $3,500 bucks for the denon 5910 when the hd players are expected within the year. And there is no way anyone could convince me that the difference in PQ is worh an extra $3,200.

Presumably the s-77 will have the same chip but with better firmware and without the hdmi cable.
The fact is Samsung, Denon and Panasonic have all made a huge mistake in selecting the 23XX chips. Samsung has released disaster after disaster, year after year. Now is Panasonic making their own rut too?
For proof just look at the huge amount of bandwidth these flawed players have consumed here at AVS... Heck look at the posts surrounding this one.

BTW Mr. Bigalow perspective has been revealed by his own words. He does not have a trained eye and is most certainly not nearly as critical as most here are. Especially for those seeking a high performance player. He is, in effect learning at your expense. No doubt looking for a chief tester position at Sound and Vision magazine...

I agree, spending $3500 for a standard Definition player is ridiculous. This was my cynical sense of humor a work again, questioning the motives as to why such a flawed and hugely expensive player would even be released at this HD Dvd time. Kris Derring tone (in his Secrets 5910 review) wanted to recommend it (as with any Denon product), but knew that if he did that he would lose all creditability.

One of the worst combinations imaginable is to use a Dvd player incorporating the 2310 and a color-wheel DLP projector. The single chip TI DLP design is performing many "tricks" of its own to generate the darker scenes. Combining this rough, grainy noise along with the harsh noise generated by the 2310, and you have a match made in hell. This situation alone accounts as to why some are more afflicted than others.

BTW you did not answer my question. Strange, to say the least.

Here we go again with Reincarnate's blatant attacks against Paul (and Panasonic for that matter) for no apparent reason (those who followed along the Brain dump thread know what I'm talking about).

I for one have the exact "match made in hell" that you are describing and have little to no MB before and after the 536 upgrade. Extremely happy with this player and feel it is by far the best bang for my buck.

How are you even qualified to comment on what 536 fixed or didn't fix if you don't own the s97? Or maybe you do own one and just feel like bashing other people for fun (as you suggested earlier on).

I for one could do without your posts. Please go away.

Originally posted by EricScott
Please go away.

He can't. He is working for Sony. Just my conspiracy theory. :D

Wow!!!!!!!!

Just waded thru the thread from post 1! Was looking for a specific post, didn't see what I was after, although I DID see a post where it stated that MB was display-dependent. (I don't even dare to begin the brain dump.)

So, with the sincere hope that I don't get flamed for ignorance:

For all you experienced experts, would there likely be a macroblocking problem running an ED PDP?

TIA

yobob,

"ED PDP" is too general. When "display dependent" is mentioned, it is meant to state *exact model of display dependent*. Even then, the results can vary.

Basically, these items can all play a part:
1. Exact model type of display
2. Calibration
3. DVD source material

and now

4. Panasonic DVD-S97 firmware revision level.

If in doubt, be certain of the DVD player's return privaleges before purchase.

Paul

Originally posted by EricScott
Here we go again with Reincarnate's blatant attacks against Paul (and Panasonic for that matter) for no apparent reason (those who followed along the Brain dump thread know what I'm talking about).

I for one have the exact "match made in hell" that you are describing and have little to no MB before and after the 536 upgrade. Extremely happy with this player and feel it is by far the best bang for my buck.

How are you even qualified to comment on what 536 fixed or didn't fix if you don't own the s97? Or maybe you do own one and just feel like bashing other people for fun (as you suggested earlier on).

I for one could do without your posts. Please go away.

I too have the exact "match made in hell" with the S97 and a DLP Infocus 4805 projector and and am extremely happy with this player ! We even brought it to a friend's place to try with his new Plasma and he's going to order one too!

Deb

I am Extremely happy with this player and feel it is by far the best bang for my buck also:)

Reincarnation,

Mmmmm...Mmmmmm...Mmmmmm.....I love me some Panny S97 with 85E536. You should get you some too...

:)

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
yobob,

"ED PDP" is too general. When "display dependent" is mentioned, it is meant to state *exact model of display dependent*. Even then, the results can vary.

Basically, these items can all play a part:
1. Exact model type of display
2. Calibration
3. DVD source material

and now

4. Panasonic DVD-S97 firmware revision level.

If in doubt, be certain of the DVD player's return privaleges before purchase.

Paul

Sorry, Paul. Guess I was a bit vague. I was under the impression that certain TYPES of displays were more prone than others. But I was getting ahead of myself.

I'm about to pull the trigger on either a Pany or NEC ED PDP. My current DVD is an older Pio 333 (interlaced, component outs). I have no idea whether a player like an S97 would give me a significantly better PQ, because I understand that the de-interlacers on both sets are great. But I am looking down the road.

With both panels being ED, should I even be thinking about an S97? If so, would the digital output of the S97 be a better match with either of these sets?

I downloaded Bob Pariseau's multi-pager on DVD in a High-Def World, but that only makes me want to go bury my head in the sand.

If this is a "match made in Hell" then consider me damned, and loving every minute of it.

yobob,

The first step in getting an upconverting player is determinining whether or not upconverting is needed or desired. In the case of my Panasonic TC-22LH1 LCD TV, the upconverting has real, visible benefit, not just "I think it looks better". Upon close viewing (and yes I do normally sit close to the display), it is obvious that the TV's scaler makes jagged lines out of formerly smooth diagonal lines -- easily visible. This happens with DVD, regular TV, cable box, *everything* that is 480i or 480p. Using devices at 1080i provides an immediate and greatly visible improvement.

In your case, if the TV does great with 480i sources and deinterlaces and scales very well an upconverting DVD player may not be necessary. In this case an upconverting player will fall more into the category of "I think it looks better" -- and it may, indeed, look better but not be quite as obvious. Component output from a great player still does produces a great picture when matched with a display that has a great scaler.

Down the road HD-DVD and Blu-Ray await. The big concern here is to get a display that has HDCP (DVI or HDMI) to ensure the disc's contents will be accepted by the panel.

Will macroblocking be seen if the S97 is used? Maybe -- probably in some form or other. Search the threads for the exact model number of display and the S97 and see if anything turns up.

Paul

I'm here to confirm that onecall.com's new batch of S97's have the new firmware. I just got mine in the mail today.

Although I never noticed macro blocking before I still have the same problem with purple clouds, which was the reason I returned my first unit.

I cannot find this answer anywhere. Someone please tell me if this is a problem with the DVD player or my TV?!?!

I get a lot of purple clouds when I have it on HDMI connection, less with component, and a little with composite. I can't stand this and need someone to help me figure out what's the deal.

Also, I never get the purple dust effect when watching TV, only on the DVD player.

Originally posted by reincarnate
He does not have a trained eye and is most certainly not nearly as critical as most here are. Especially for those seeking a high performance player. He is, in effect learning at your expense. No doubt looking for a chief tester position at Sound and Vision magazine...

Perhaps similar to the one that you were apparently "let go" from?
Hmmm, wasn’t your last acting out – the digital analyzer tirade on this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=485205&perpage=20&highlight=Secrets&pagenumber=4

before sspears and Robert Whitehead put you to bed ?

Originally posted by EricScott
Here we go again with Reincarnate's blatant attacks against Paul (and Panasonic for that matter) for no apparent reason (those who followed along the Brain dump thread know what I'm talking about).

I for one have the exact "match made in hell" that you are describing and have little to no MB before and after the 536 upgrade. Extremely happy with this player and feel it is by far the best bang for my buck.

How are you even qualified to comment on what 536 fixed or didn't fix if you don't own the s97? Or maybe you do own one and just feel like bashing other people for fun (as you suggested earlier on).

I for one could do without your posts. Please go away.
I will third that. My match made in hell is a s97 and Samsung DLP and I have been extremely happy. I have not seen MB once.

I have the s97 witha Hitachi 51f510, never seen any macroblocking, still running the original firmware, don't really see any reason to flash the new one....

Don't quite know about purple clouds but I can tell you that I had a bad case of pink clouds and any B&W stuff had pink cast to it, prior to the firmware update. Now, it is mostly gone but I can still see much smaller pink/red pixelation on some scenes - now most noticable against pure white backgrounds.

For me, the pink cast was much bigger deal than MB and now its easily overlooked and unnoticed (unless you look for them, like the white belly of sharks in Shark Tale CGI).

So my guess is two fold. One, your TV/Monitor may need to be calibrated correctly color setting (RGB), hence what we see pink may be purple on your device. Second, your color intensity setting may be too high (on TV or DVD player or both).

Short of having someone come and calibrate your set, try picking up Digital Video Essentials and try it yourself and see if you still have the same issues. As for different inputs giving different results is expected.

You might want to post your monitor/dvd combo settings and see if someone else may have the same set up as you and get some free advice as well...

Originally posted by Boogie7910
I'm here to confirm that onecall.com's new batch of S97's have the new firmware. I just got mine in the mail today.

Although I never noticed macro blocking before I still have the same problem with purple clouds, which was the reason I returned my first unit.

I cannot find this answer anywhere. Someone please tell me if this is a problem with the DVD player or my TV?!?!

I get a lot of purple clouds when I have it on HDMI connection, less with component, and a little with composite. I can't stand this and need someone to help me figure out what's the deal.

Also, I never get the purple dust effect when watching TV, only on the DVD player.

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
Component output from a great player still does produces a great picture when matched with a display that has a great scaler.

Geez Paul,
I see you are *encouraging* me yet again to fork over more money and purchase those component cables for my setup.:D

I have a Toshiba 52hm94 and a Panasonic S97S. Anyone else with this set have purple/pink clouds?

The firmware did help a little bit. It's mostly seen in smokey scenes or areas with lots of grey. It's really bad at the credits in LOTR: RK EE.

Originally posted by reincarnate
[.

BTW you did not answer my question. Strange, to say the least. [/B]

As a matter of fact I did. The s-77 hasn't been released yet so we are speculating that it contains the same chip which most people at this thread are satisfied with. No one expects a perfect player for only $300 but this one comes close. Appreciate your contrary view reincarnate but you are beating a dead horse here.

Originally posted by Penton-Man
Geez Paul,
I see you are *encouraging* me yet again to fork over more money and purchase those component cables for my setup.:D

Nah, go ahead and keep the HDMI. ;)

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Bigelow

Penton-Man, "Lawrence..." still looks spectacular!

THAT my friend is the BEST news to me about your preliminary observations.

"Does he really deserve a place, in here?"

Originally posted by Bladerunner1959
"Does he really deserve a place, in here?"
Ah, another connoisseur of the first chapter. :)
Most definitely. The Panny DVD player's function is to play DVD's....ergo...a DVD of one of the greatest movies of all time is quite pertinent for evaluation and appreciation of the player itself.:D

Penton-Man you have PM.

"Do not be clever with me, English." ;)

"Lawrence..." (Superbit) is a big, big test disc for me and the movie is wonderful to see. If one has never seen the movie -- give yourself four hours and see what moviemaking is all about.

Paul

Paul do you have your unit back yet?

I am sorry for not responding soon friends, but the lawsuit suggestion is nothing more than a joke which was not intended to be taken seriously.

I am still waiting whether the second firmware update (340) can be downloaded or not.

Sounds like a downgrade now! =) 340!

<Heavy sigh> - OK - SO HOW much is Lawrence of Arabia?

Sango,

Yes. I have the player back and have posted some initial findings:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5157191#post5157191

I don't think 536 is a "magic bullet" but it is a good step in the right direction.

Paul

CkRtech,

The Superbit version of "Lawrence..." (the one with the best picture) can be found for around $25 new. It's a two disc set. A lower priced edition can be found on single disc but it was improperly mastered.

Paul

Regarding Component Vs. HDMI on the S97: For about the first month of ownership of my S97 and Sanyo PLV-Z3 projector, I used the component outputs @480p. I had to order a 30 foot HDMI cable from RAM Electronics, so while waiting for its arrival, I became quite familiar with the component picture quality of the S97. When I finally got the HDMI cable, well, to put it mildly, I was blown away. ALL of the problems I associate with "analog" connections were gone - the HDMI image @720p is crystal clear and rock solid with a visible increase in resolution over component. It is similar to the difference I experienced when upgrading from LaserDisc to DVD in February of 1997. I could never go back to component now.
My only wish is that the S97 could zoom 4x3 Letterbox transfers better - the zoom circuitry in it is truly terrible. My Zenith 318 @1080i output, with a properly flagged 24PsF disc, does a much better job - in fact, it 'looks' almost as good as true anamorphic. Especially Paramounts DVD of "Titanic" which has NO vertical filtering.

Considering the Faroudja DCDi chips have "Zoom" and variable aspect ratio capability built-in, it's too bad that Panasonic continues to use their own solution. Perhaps it's a license fee thing? Does Genesis Microchip charge a royalty for each 'feature' that's activated in the FLI-23XX chips?

BTW, does anyone have a copy of the FLI-23XX data/implementation manual? I have the FLI-2200 manual, but can't find anything on the 23XX other than what Genesis provides on their website.

Hello Disclord,

I've looked for a FLI-23xx datasheet and have come up empty.

Paul

Paul, does the new Panasonic fw address anything? W/ other electronics I at least see a readme file that outlines what the firmware specifically addresses. From this thread, it appears as though it 'may or may not address a few things', I see alot of "I THINK it's better.....". If this is the case, why even bother with an upgrade?

And why don't I see this MB? I am going to a Hitachi 51f510 via HDMI and have yet to see any MB, and if it is in fact an issue, I have no movies that show it. And if some movies show it more than others, is this more an issue related to the media rather than the device?

D96,

The firmware does not inlude list of fixes so we are left with subjective observations.

One of the puzzling aspects of the issue is that not everyone sees the macroblock enhance. The viewing or lack of viewing of it depends upon several things:

1. The exact monitor type
2. The calibration of the monitor/player
3. The recorded software

and now:

4. The S97 firmware level

The choice of updating the firmware is up to the individual: if there's no problem, I would say leave the player alone. I have some mild occasional issues, so I took a gamble. Some improvement was noted. Even with my mild case, there are some movies I never see a problem at all -- before or after the upgrade.

Paul

Thanks Paul.

D96,

If you look through the thread here you will find several definitive things 85E536 fixed over 85E528 (summary below and I have spent several hours looking at these myself):

Things fixed:
1.) Layer Change pause reduction (down to 0.94 sec. from 1.5 sec.).
2.) Player responsiveness increase (MUCH quicker chapter skips, menu navigation, and disc reads upon tray closing).
3.) Recovery Time improvement (much quicker switching between film and video modes on the fly). This can be seen on the Galaxy Quest intro. and the Faroudja test disc using the diagonal moving box and lines test.
4.) 3-2 Cadence Video Flags passes in Auto1 and Auto2 modes (Galaxy Quest intro using the planet fly-by scene, the 3-2 film pulldown is grabbed even quicker now).
5.) Film grain/MPEG background noise reduction (edge enhancement reduction in 720p and 1080i over HDMI).
6.) MB reduction for people that are experiencing it, although there is no way to quantitatively measure this. MB is not present with all displays. I don't have any MB with my Sanyo PLV-Z2 720p LCD projector.
7.) I can now set my brightness to 0 (instead of +1 with 85E528) to get perfect BTB using DVE (I am running in 720p over HDMI/DVI).
8.) Pink tint reduction in Black and White scenes, though some may still be seeing a small amount of pinkness, I don't think I am seeing it on my display.

Things still not fixed:
1.) Incorrect Progressive Flags test still fails in Auto2 mode only (strange since other FL2310-based players don't have this problem, so this is easily fixable via firmware, and the problem is not present in Auto1 mode).
2.) 2-2 Cadence Film Flags test still fails in Auto1 mode only.
3.) Picture fuzzy when using the Zoom feature in the player.
4.) Can we get the Layer Change further down further below 1 second?
5.) Panasonic, can we start getting firmware updates for this player through the front door...instead of the back door? How about a firmware update site with release notes for each version?

The file with instructions zipped up is here. (http://home.comcast.net/~fway/Panasonic_DVD-S97_85E536_firmware_update.zip)

Just unzip the file and burn the .frm file to a CDROM disk as you would a normal data file. Put it in the player and answer the first question it asks (Do you want to update?) as a YES, then sit back and wait about 5 minutes. You'll see some strange stuff on the screen while it is updating and resetting. It will tell you when it is finished and successful on the front display after it reboots when done. DO NOT TURN IT OFF IN THE MIDDLE OF THE UPDATE.

It's that easy. I would write down all of your settings in the player you want to keep. Part of the update process is to reset everything in the player to factory defaults, so you'll have to go back in and set it to Auto2, 720p, Normal/User mode, etc. for example. Factory default is 480i mode.

This update file is dated Dec. 17, 2004, so it was compiled very close to that date. Also, newer players that recently shipped with a January build date all seem to have 85E536 already installed. The build date of your S97 is stamped in the rear panel's right side.

I am running in Auto2 mode all the time now as I am not aware of many DVD titles that are incorrectly-mastered with Incorrect Progressive Flags (at least I don't have many), and everything else is perfect in Auto2 now.

Has anyone else recognized other things I may have left out?

Originally posted by D96
Paul, does the new Panasonic fw address anything? W/ other electronics I at least see a readme file that outlines what the firmware specifically addresses. From this thread, it appears as though it 'may or may not address a few things', I see alot of "I THINK it's better.....". If this is the case, why even bother with an upgrade?

And why don't I see this MB? I am going to a Hitachi 51f510 via HDMI and have yet to see any MB, and if it is in fact an issue, I have no movies that show it. And if some movies show it more than others, is this more an issue related to the media rather than the device?

LiteUp- Nice job.
Perhaps only add under "Things still not fixed"
something to the effect -
Feasibility in getting said firmware upgrade from you local service center- varies widely - check p.X of this thread on how to get it Headache free.

Perfect !

Thanks LiteUp for your clear summary of the 97S and for hosting the firmware file.

Excellent summary Liteup.

Thanks guys...maybe we can get Paul to put this on the first page of the thread and update as time goes on.

LiteUp!, thanks for the firmware summary.

LiteUp!

Done!

Thanks again for that excellent summary.

Paul

So theres still no fix for the white flash issue?

Hello All,

Just wanted to say a big thanks for posting the MB problem and the file to fix it. I bought an S97 a week ago, downloaded the firmware update here and loaded it in the player.
I still saw a slight bit of MB last night while watching 'Castaway' (the night scene where he sees the ship on the horizon) but overall it is a definite improvement over what it was.
I also found that running the player with the A/V enhancement off made a big difference.
Hopefully another update is coming to completely get rid of the problem.
Thanks again!

-Jeff

This thread represents the best this forum has to offer. What an incredible amount of helpful information. Well done.

Originally posted by Buck's SCSW
This thread represents the best this forum has to offer. What an incredible amount of helpful information. Well done.

Agreed!

Made a new post observation FAQs. Makes it easier for people to notice what the update does.

Originally posted by muadib
So theres still no fix for the white flash issue?

Is there a "white flash" issue associated with the DVD-S97? I don't recall there being a problem.

Anyone?

If I recall, I think the Samsung 841 has "green flash" issue.

Paul

hey, kids... I made some mumblings back in the first megathread (Paul's first baby) and thought I'd chime in again.

Just trying to wade through and come to a couple conclusions now that the new firmware's in place.

I've got an RP-82 hooked up via component to a KP-57WV700 Sony CRT RPTV (the DVI port on the back has yet to be used). Both purchases were very much a product of these fora back in the day....

I was hoping that the S97 would be an '82 with HDMI, all the best things about my player under component, with the added fun of better layer change time, newer electronics, and the neeto-fun of HDMI/upconversion.

So, key questions for you firmware-upgrading kids.

1) Anybody with a CRT/S97 combo find that upconverting really does the trick?
2) On component, does this beast outshine, or at least match, the RP-82? I've got mixed messages whether or not it even does 480p through component...
3) Anybody with either Queen DVD-A test out wether there's a pause between tracks? (a weird "bug" in the '82 playback of dvd-a)

I'm pleased that firmware upgrades are coming reasonably quickly, and seem to have some effect. From my standpoint, if there are no MB save when upconverting via HDMI (ie., if the picture is clean at 480p component) then I'm losing nothing from moving away from the '82. I'm not convinced yet it's time to ditch my lovely, lovely player.

Help me out, kids, as I know you can...

Is Q3 under the assumption that the RP82 is using the latest firmware?

It seems people have confused the white flash issue with the problem on the Panasonic AE700 projector with firmware 1.03. The 97S never had a problem it was with the projector. Panasonic has issued new firmware for the projector 1.07 and the projector must be sent in for an upadate. Again there is no white
flash issue with the 97S

sango: yeah, thanks to you and this forum! :)

One of the things I hoped the new '82 firmware would fix would be that little bug on DTS-branded DVD-Audio discs...

anyhoo, any more details on the above? Not to hijaak, but, well, ya know...

I declare it as a hyjack! =P

Since I don't have any DVD-A's, I wouldn't have knowledge of this glitch.

Q1) I need to have a HDMI->DVI cable to test this out.
Q2) The PQ on S97's PQ looks different than the RP82. It does have a bit of artifacting and noise which I notice + the macroblocking which I fell right back in using my RP82 as a hook up.
--------------------------------------

Speaking of that.. I'm considing of selling my S97 since I barely used it. Any buyers?

Today, I performed further Layer Change testing with the official Microsoft WHQL DVD Test Annex 3.0 disc (same disc Secrets uses). I just got the latest WHQL test disc in the mail Saturday. These test times should be directly comparable to the Secrets summary report. Kris, do you agree?

Here is a quick results tabulation using three of my Panasonic DVD players:

DVD-S97S (f/w: 85E536): 0.94 seconds [PASS, 10 points]

DVD-XP30 (f/w: 65H302): 1.12 seconds [BORDERLINE PASS, 5 points]

DVD-H1000: 1.61 seconds [BORDERLINE PASS, 5 points]

Paul, we might need to update this on the first post for this thread.

Here is a link to the full report and how I did it. (http://home.comcast.net/~home_theater_test/layerchange.htm)

Hello LiteUp! Great work. Have updated the layer change pause time to reflect .94 sec.

Thanks!

Paul

Thanks Paul!

To all:

If you'd like to see a comparison of the image quality difference between a Panasonic S97 and the praised XP30 (both with latest firmware), look here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=509280

I returned the S97 about a month ago back to store because I didn't like the MB and was going to buy 975 (but never did). Today I bought one S97 back again (about $70 CAD cheaper than the first one)... hehe. It is like a personal relationship with Future Shop, one day I return, other day I buy it back...

Originally posted by rwestley
It seems people have confused the white flash issue with the problem on the Panasonic AE700 projector with firmware 1.03. The 97S never had a problem it was with the projector. Panasonic has issued new firmware for the projector 1.07 and the projector must be sent in for an upadate. Again there is no white
flash issue with the 97S I see. I need to catch up with the AE700 thread, thanks!

Hello everyone,
I just recieved my 97s from Vanns today, and it still has the old 28 version for the firmware. I thought I would let you know.

Later

Kevin

What's the build date on the back of it? Something before January 2005? I would update it if I were you.

Does anyone know the specifics of how Panasonic managed to reduce macroblocking in the S97 with their latest firmware update - assuming they have?

Is there a firmware update on the RP82???

zeropoint,

I have no specifics. Unless there's a forum member from Genesis Microchip or Panasonic that is able to comment, we probably won't be given information. There are no details supplied with the firmware fix.

To speculate however, perhaps Genesis Microchip shared whatever FLI-2310 macroblock enhance knowledge gained with Denon and assisted Panasonic.

Paul

Bimmeroni,

Try this Panasonic firmware thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=405756

Generally, the discussion found on this thread concerns the S97 and how the firmware affects macroblock enhance and false color tint.

Paul

Thanks Paul,

It's just odd that Panasonic have issued an apparent fix - or at least improvement - yet Denon, so far, seems not to have done so. I heard they had at one point, but then heard they had withdrawn it? :confused:

zeropoint,

I haven't followed the Denon threads that closely. I had heard that Denon had released a partial macroblock fix a couple of months ago but don't know its ultimate fate.

Paul

Paul,

I heard that too. First a firmware update contained a partial fix, then I think it was absent from subsequent updates.

Has anyone established whether the macro-blocking - or should I say it's exaggeration - has just been reduced, or entirely eliminated such that only compression artifacts (macro-blocking) remain?

I'm wondering if Panasonic can do it,...

I would say reduced. I still see it a bit in certain shots, but it is much better than it was before. I guess sometimes it's hard to discern whether it is compression on the disc or if it's the player causing it, but looking at a couple of superbit discs over the weekend (Air Force One and Fifth Element) I saw very little MB.
I am assuming that the SB discs are pretty good reference material for minimal compression. Agreed?

zeropoint,

Don't know if it can be totally solved through firmware or not. It does seem that Panasonic is making some moves in the right direction.

jeffgun,

I don't have those titles but do have the Superbit of "Lawrence of Arabia". It's a refrence disc to me.

Paul

Yeah, I was looking at Lawrence of Arabia over the weekend. I don't own the Superbit version but I do have the double disc SE released in 2001 and it is beautiful. Is the SB version on 2 discs or one?