Thanks for the info. Using colorfacts, I was at least able to get repeatable contrast ratio measures when I was trying to find the right filter for my pj. Not exactly sure how accurate the measurements were, but I did find that I preferred the higher measured values better (which I don’t think is necessarily earth shattering news).

Mike,
Is the issue with contrast more related to measurement variation/non standard way of measurement or do you feel there are other projector attributes that are more important to overall PQ?

Originally posted by Jeff J
Mike,
Is the issue with contrast more related to measurement variation/non standard way of measurement or do you feel there are other projector attributes that are more important to overall PQ?

A little of both really. I find that projectors listed with CRs over 2000:1 look different or better more for other reasons than whether one is 2000, 2500 or 3000:1. But that's just me.

BTW, the ND2 filter is looking pretty good with an upscaled DVD through the HDMI input. Much as it does with the 4805, it reduces the dithering in certain dark scenes.

i was surprised on the relative size and weight of the MT700 compared to my X1, does anybody have ceiling mount recommendations for this PJ?

i used a kitchen cutting board to make a mount retrofited with my mandrax X1 mount, but the swivel can't handle the added weight.

the screws are about 14 inches apart so i'm guessing custom mount for this beast.

i'll report on picture quality after i get HDMI cable today.

Mike,

I've seen the posts about using an ND2 filter for the MT700 lens when upscaling DVD using HDMI. Should that be a must have item for a new PJ owner or is that a personal preference thing like with folks who are more sensitive to rainbows?

Carl Zeiss makes the lens for the MT800. Could they also make the lens on the mt700 with an agreement that Toshiba keeps it on the QT? I've known manufacturers to do that in the past.

Originally posted by corba
i was surprised on the relative size and weight of the MT700 compared to my X1, does anybody have ceiling mount recommendations for this PJ?


The one mentioned at the beginning of this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=516642) has a wide enough spread range to accomodate the MT700.

Originally posted by chazmo
Mike,

I've seen the posts about using an ND2 filter for the MT700 lens when upscaling DVD using HDMI. Should that be a must have item for a new PJ owner or is that a personal preference thing like with folks who are more sensitive to rainbows?

I wouldn't say it's a must have. I don't see any rainbows with or without the ND2 filter, so it's more of a choice to get a little deeper blacks. Of course, you really need some decent light control in the room since it really reduces the light output.

Here are couple of graphs, pre and post greyscale calibration with OpticOne and Avia Pro. The out-of-the-box setup is very good, just needing some slight adjustments to RGB gain and offset. This is with the ND2 filter on and starting with the "Medium" color temp.

Pre-calibration

http://www.surfaudiovideo.com/graphics/Pre-cal.gif


Post calibration

http://www.surfaudiovideo.com/graphics/Post-cal.gif

There's not enough light below 20 IRE (and even at 20 IRE it's not entirely correct) to have accurate measurements, hence the drop off.

There are a few reasons to go with an ND2 filter:

1) Better blacks: cutting overall light output in half also cuts direct black from the pj in half. If you have a light colored room there is an increased effect because the light bouncing around the room from the bright parts of the image are also reduced.

2) Better idea of whether your screen/room will work when the bulb is at half brightness later in life. When you notice reduced light output, remove the ND filter and your back to a good image.

3) Movie-like brightness. Depending on your screen size, the MT700 may be too bright to reproduce the level of brightness a typical movie theater. Most eyes will adjust to this level of brightness in the whites and will notice the improved blacks. Visibility of MPEG and dithering artifacts should also be reduced.

Of course this is all a regurgitation of what I've read on this forum. I'll get to see how it translates into reality next week.

Thought this might be useful:

I just verified that NTSC Mode: Japan is always displayed in 720p regardless of whether it was set to Japan or USA in 480p mode. I did again verify that there was a brightness change even in 720p mode by changing NTSC Mode in 480p.

I thought I'd repost MikeA's and my little dialog from the rich folks forum over here in the "barely can afford a replacement bulb let alone a projector" forum.

Originally posted by MikeA
Carl Zeiss makes the lens for the MT800. Could they also make the lens on the mt700 with an agreement that Toshiba keeps it on the QT? I've known manufacturers to do that in the past.

I believe the way that Zeiss works today (for licensing) is that they design the optics then have someone build it. Zeiss has become a mainstream marketable brand name. Look at all the inexpensive Sony still cameras with Zeiss stickers on them. My feeling from the beginning was that either Zeiss (and/or the company that OEM'd the glass for the MT800) was involved in the glass for the MT700, and Toshiba is just not marketing it that way. It just seems cheaper for them to design it that way.

SImilar to other electronic in the way that one circuit board is designed with all the features of a product, and they deliberately have to disable those features form the lower cost products in the lineup.

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
I just verified that NTSC Mode: Japan is always displayed in 720p regardless of whether it was set to Japan or USA in 480p mode.

I noticed that last night with the HDMI input. It automatically changed to "Japan" after I'd set it for "USA". I believe the same thing is supposed to be happening through component but doesn't, so you have to set it to "Japan" yourself.

Does anybody know if the Toshiba MT700 allows manual control of "Rec 601" / "Rec 709" for its HDMI input in the presence of 720p/1080i signals?

Since this PJ is more than twice the cost of 4805, in percentage terms, how much better is the picture ? I thought that a native 720P DLP image would be a great improvement over the already good picture quality I get with the 4805.

After reading this thread, I'm getting the impression that the MT700's image quality isn't really that much of an improvement when compared to the 4805. Is this a correct assumption ?

I cannot comment (yet) on this projector's picture quality, but I did notice that most if not all of the 4805-to-MT700 comparisons were using DVDs. A good test I'd like to see will be with true HD signals (including native 720p content as well as 1080i converted in either the projector or the signal source), using the DVI/HDMI input.

I cannot comment on the pic either; but I know for a fact I cannot watch 4805 on a 120" at 1.2 distance. I have no problems with a Z2000/Benq 8700, so the 720ps should be better..

Originally posted by ChrisW6ATV
I cannot comment (yet) on this projector's picture quality, but I did notice that most if not all of the 4805-to-MT700 comparisons were using DVDs. A good test I'd like to see will be with true HD signals (including native 720p content as well as 1080i converted in either the projector or the signal source), using the DVI/HDMI input.
I'm curious about this as well. I'd like to know how it stacks up against the 4805. My seating is at 2x screen width and HD on the 4805 and my 120" SilverStar looks quite good to stunning depending on the feed. Not bad at all for a low-res 480P PJ. I'm really wondering if it's worth it to upgrade to 720P at my seating distance.

I've watched about 6 hours of HD on my MT700 at 1.5x. I've done limited A/Bing against the 4805 at 1.9x.

At 1.5x it's no contest. For me the 4805 is unwatchable at closer than 1.9x due to SDE. At 1.5x, HD on the MT700 is very impressive. It produces an extremely detailed image. The only artifact I've noticed are the satellite feed's MPEG2 artifacts.

At 1.9x there is definitely a sense of lost detail on the 4805. The MT700 is (obviously) much better in this regard. How much this improves is very dependent on your eyesight. For me, watching 80/20 DVD/HD, I probably wouldn't pay the difference and would have stuck with the 4805 at this distance. If I was watching 20/80 DVD/HD, I probably would pay for the MT700 at this distance. Of course the main point for me was getting to 1.5x, which the MT700 delivers.

To me colors, brightness, and contrast are very close between my uncalibrated 4805 and my calibrated MT700. It comes down to resolution. If you're staying at 2.0x, how much this improves things really depends on your sources and how much >=720p programming you watch.

Another thing to consider is how 1080i->720p conversion works in your system. This projector (as I think all <$8K pjs do) likely converts 1080i->540p->720p. So far I think my HDTivo converting 1080->720p looks better. With this I see some detail on the HDNet test pattern up to ~700 lines, though it's not clear cut.

BTW, I've now setup the SSE2 version of ffdshow, which allows me to do various image processing routines after the resize to 1280x720. I'll post impressions of how much this improves HTPC DVD later this week.

Hopefully, MikeSRC will have some comparisons for us soon.

FlyingGimp-

Thank you for your notes on HD viewing. I recently bought a 27" LCD TV (1280x720) with DVI input, and its 'crisp, digital' appearance with native 720p programming is stunning to my eyes-I would say it is the first video display I have seen that is the equivalent of CDs for audio. I am hoping the MT700 will give me a comparable image (but of course at 90"+ diagonal).

I have been following this thread closely, the unit seems to shaping up nicely!

The one glaring thing that is bothering me for my setup is the ZERO offset, that would seem to me to kill a lot of ceiling mount options for HT dedicated unit, am I wrong here?

Granted the tweaker in me says the less offset the better for uniformity of focus with average optics, but zero... Any pics of the setup?

How about a manual in pdf?

Thank you for your efforts...


TJ

Originally posted by ChrisW6ATV
I cannot comment (yet) on this projector's picture quality, but I did notice that most if not all of the 4805-to-MT700 comparisons were using DVDs. A good test I'd like to see will be with true HD signals (including native 720p content as well as 1080i converted in either the projector or the signal source), using the DVI/HDMI input. Interesting point but also a mixed bag. For DVDs, the higher resolution 720p requires DCDi processing plus upconversion which puts enormous processing strain on the FLI23xx. The 4805 "merely" has to do DCDi without scaling, possibly creating a cleaner, more artifact-free image. But for HD content, that 1080i or 720p feed would not pass through the DCDi circuitry. Anti-aliasing is for low-rez, and no more than a stop-gap solution until HD-DVD. If your viewing habits are >50% for true HD source, then 720p looks more and more attractive.

For me it comes down to a contest of PQ: HD2+ versus DarkChip 2. And we already know where that stands in a 7205/4805 comparison.

What is the throw distance on the MT700? Would I be able to mount it on my back wall (16 feet back) and get an 84in wide screen? The lack of lens shift is the only major problem I see in the MT700.

This may seem strange but I'm still thinking of getting the AE 700. I guess I'm tired of reading about projectors and start watching some movies.

I was thinking the same thing but have run across to many posts with things
LIKE THIS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=521405) , the AE700 is tempting, and im sure a fine projector, but there just seem to be to many little buggy things with it

Maybe I am missing something here- but with upscaling DVD players via DVI, isn't that enough impetus to give the clear nod to any 1280x720 projector, even if your only watching DVDs?

I remember a long time ago when first researching the V880 DVD player, I read a comment here that DVD upscaled via the 880 looked very similar to D-VHS copies of the same movies, and that unless viewed back to back, it would be very hard to tell the difference. Now I have also read that D-vhs looks not nearly as good as uncompressed HD, but that is another story.

My point is it seems like DVD's are at a point that they should be considered quasi HD sources, and not low res 480P sources. At least that's my take on it.

5 million- My advice is to see how the 7700 plays out and pick either that ot the MT700-(it may be a while before somone gets thioer hands on both to do a comparison-

Trust me you will be very happy with either. WHile the pany looks good for LCD (at least compared with my old Z2), the smothscan just didn't look right to me.

Originally posted by Hi Ho
What is the throw distance on the MT700? Would I be able to mount it on my back wall (16 feet back) and get an 84in wide screen? The lack of lens shift is the only major problem I see in the MT700.

It has a short throw. At 16 feet back, the smallest screen you could have would be over 105" wide (120" diagonal).

I would agree with the other comments regarding viewing HD content. I f you're going to watch is DVDs (even upscaled ones), the 4805 will do the job. Otherwise, if you want to sit closer to the screen or intend to watch HD on a regular basis, there's no substitution for the increased resolution of the MT700.

Originally posted by emailists
5 million- My advice is to see how the 7700 plays out and pick either that ot the MT700-(it may be a while before somone gets thioer hands on both to do a comparison-

That actually may be fairly soon. I'm working on it.

That actually may be fairly soon. I'm working on it.
Man... now he's just teasing us... ;)

Seriously, glad to hear it. I'm sure we'll all be waiting with bated breath to hear the results of a head to head comparison. I know I will.

Yes because I'm ready to make a purchase.

Fellas - fantastic thread you have here. I appreciate your time in keeping us lurkers updated :D

I am curious as to what distance (1.? x screen width) when the pixel structure/SDE becomes visible on the MT700 (or the BenQ 7700 for that matter). My apologies if I skimmed a post that mentioned such. Just want to plan to get as close as possible for that THX viewing angle, heh.:p

ps: anyone from Omaha, NE around this forum?

Originally posted by MikeSRC
That actually may be fairly soon. I'm working on it. [comparing the 7700 to the MT700]

I'm looking forward to it! :)

It would also be great to know how the MT700 compares to the Sharp 2000. I've been trying to find any info on this, but so far I haven't found anything.

Jeez go to sleep and I'm way behind on the thread.

Fivemillionways - the thread starter betraying us? :eek: Seriously, I you'd likely be happy with the AE700. I was happy for quite awhile with my PLV-Z1 despite the LCD problems, until I got a dustblob that wouldn't go away. Just put a filter on the AE700's intakes to begin with. Be sure you've read up on all the LCD artifacts and be sure you can live with them (or buy from a place with a good return policy, such as a certain warehouse store).

All that said I think you're giving up a significant amount of ANSI contrast by going with the AE700. I personally am the sort to start wishing I spent the $700 extra to begin with.

Emailists - In my experience with an HTPC and my (decent but not perfect) eyesight, the 4805 and MT700 look very close at 2x. This may change when I start running filters at 1280x720.

The consumer DVD upscaling players may be completely different. I'm not sure if they scale to 848x480 and do 1:1 on the 4805, while they definitely scale and do 1:1 on the MT700. This alone should be a huge differentiator between the two. For me on the 4805 it was night and day better when I went to 1:1 mapping.

Johnnyozero3 - I think at roughly 1.2x I start to see SDE in white areas. This is with a 70" wide screen, which is very bright. Obviously a slight defocus would get you even closer to that IMAX experience.

Jonnyozero3, I am from the Omaha area!! Looking for any MT700 dealers to view this bad boy! Let me know if you come up with any (or I will let you buy one and I can come check out yours!! HAHA)

Thanks to everyone for the efforts on this PJ. I am also interested in the comparison on the low-price 720p PJ's!!

With eager anticipation, Chad....

Okay you guys I'm back in the game. A few screen shots wouldn't hurt. You know something to get us all excited with antipatation.

Originally posted by acksnay
720p requires DCDi processing plus upconversion which puts enormous processing strain on the FLI23xx.

Is the FLI23xx some sort of general processing unit? Given the limited scope of operations it needs to perform, I'd be surprised if it wasn't an ASIC. Meaning I'd expect it to have silicon dedicated to deinterlacing and silicon dedicated to scaling, with processing in one not affecting the other.

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
Is the FLI23xx some sort of general processing unit? Given the limited scope of operations it needs to perform, I'd be surprised if it wasn't an ASIC. Meaning I'd expect it to have silicon dedicated to deinterlacing and silicon dedicated to scaling, with processing in one not affecting the other.

The Faroudja DCDi chip is and always has been a dedicated ASIC dedicated to deinterlacing. The DCDi deinterlacer is a single ASIC due to its use in more than just DVD players. It can be found in many dvd players and some display devices (televisions, projectors etc). Most dvd players ship with separate MPEG decoders and deinterlacers although some lower price units have integrated these functions into a single ASIC.

If you do some research on DCDi, you'll find it is one of the best solutions to deinterlacing, although some of the later generation DCDi chips have had some issues i.e. macroblocking.

Steve

The FLi2310 is the chip most often used in projectors. It is a combination deinterlacing and scaling chip. The product brief in PDF form can be downloaded by clicking here (http://gnss.com/products/C0702-PBR-03B.PDF). As we've seen with the MT700, a pixel-mapped image w/o scaling looks the best.

Hi All,

Are we sure that the MT700 is using the FLI23xx for deinerlacing AND scaling? I'm sure the Faroudja chip is used for deinterlacing, but the German fact sheet (http://www.toshiba.de/projektoren/resources/pdf/mt700_e.pdf) says the MT700 is using an "8-bit" chip from Oplus for the scaling. (see www.oplus.com (http://www.oplus.com) )

Not that it matters if the results are good, but I've never heard of Oplus. How does the MT700 perform scaling wise?

-Chris

Originally posted by FlyingGimp

Johnnyozero3 - I think at roughly 1.2x I start to see SDE in white areas. This is with a 70" wide screen, which is very bright. Obviously a slight defocus would get you even closer to that IMAX experience.

Thanks for the info FlyingGimp. I'm shooting for a 100" screen in my basement HT (in progress) with the seating at 12.5' (seems to work best acoustically so far in my calculations), so I'm sure I will be just fine, but I had to check.

As a side note - I must say I am disappointed in the lack of a lens shift on the Mt700 - the flexibility of setup was a nice feature of the AE700. That 0" offset is giving me headaches in planning, but I guess that's what I get for the jump to affordable 720p DLP. :)

Radchad3 - sending you a pm shortly...

Originally posted by spkrgeek
Not that it matters if the results are good, but I've never heard of Oplus. How does the MT700 perform scaling wise?

-Chris

FWIW, the BenQ PE8700 has a Sil504 deinterlacing chip and an Oplus scaler. Optoma DLP rear-projectors also have Oplus if I remember rightly.

Originally posted by jonnyozero3
I am curious as to what distance (1.? x screen width) when the pixel structure/SDE becomes visible on the MT700 (or the BenQ 7700 for that matter).
It seems that different people have very different senitivities to pixelation/SDE so asking that question is about as much use as asking how bad rainbows are on the MT700.

I strongly suggest viewing an actual HD2/HD2+ projector ahead of time to figure what your own sensititivity is. Exact model not that critical as they all seem to be about the same (at least in my experience). Take a tape measure to eliminate guess work on screen widths and viewing distances. Also, check the projector is focused where you would want it (perfectly focused, slightly defocussed, etc). I know I would be very unhappy at 1.5X but I seem to find SDE more objectionable than most. FWIW, I need to be back 2.1 X before I can completely eliminate SDE from a 720*1280 DLP in a bright white field.

Failing viewing a real projector, you could get in the ball park by checking out these simulations (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=518569)

Good luck !
Brent

Brent - Haha, I knew better than to ask about the rainbows - so thanks for the additional education on pixelation. I just moved so I still have to find the local HT shops & check our their dlps. Hopefully there'll be a place that carries a couple projectors (there should be....its Omaha, NE).

BTW - very good post in that link. impressive.

Originally posted by spkrgeek
Are we sure that the MT700 is using the FLI23xx for deinerlacing AND scaling? I'm sure the Faroudja chip is used for deinterlacing, but the German fact sheet (http://www.toshiba.de/projektoren/resources/pdf/mt700_e.pdf) says the MT700 is using an "8-bit" chip from Oplus for the scaling. (see www.oplus.com (http://www.oplus.com) )

This was mentioned earlier in the thread and I couldn't see why they'd bother adding another chip to do scaling when the 2310 is capable of doing it, but it may just be a licensing thing.

Not that it matters if the results are good, but I've never heard of Oplus. How does the MT700 perform scaling wise?

-Chris

Whatever chip it's using for scaling, it does as good a job as any other projector I've seen.

Hello,

I've been looking the past few months for a upgrade to my NEC LT150 (Yes, I still have one.). The best option was looking to be the AE700. Now, I see that the 720P DLPs are starting to come down to reason, and I have the Toshiba and the Benq to choose from.

Problem is, it looks like the lack of lens shift is going to kill it for me. My LT150 is table mounted, and even with the built-in shift that it has, I'd have to raise the projector's base a couple feet at least to clear my speakers. I'm not sure if this is going to be practical.

Ceiling mount isn't really an option in my room. (Concrete)

Why is it that the cheaper LCD projectors have lens shift, but these DLPs can't seem to manage it? Sure, it might look better, but if I can't get one into my room, what's the point?

Jason

I think someone asked an Infocus rep about lens shift on their projectors at CES. They said it was hard to implement (and keeping costs low) with the way DLPs work. NEC has figured a way to get lens shift working on DLPs (seen in the 410 and 510) but they seem to have it patented.

Any idea if the benq 7700 has any sort of lens shift or at least some type of offset?

Originally posted by Ja Phule
Any idea if the benq 7700 has any sort of lens shift or at least some type of offset?

According to Art in the 7700 thread, the 7700 does not have lens shift either.

According to Art in the 7700 thread, the 7700 does not have lens shift either.
Would it be reasonable to predict, though, that the 7700 might have an offset similar to that of the 8700? According to the product manual on the BenQ website, the 8700 has at least some offset. That might help with the concerns that TheLongshot had.

After reading 80 pages of the H77 thread I don't think spending more $$ necessarily means greater returns. So I think I'm going to quit pulling my hair out and just jump on the MT700 bandwagon. I'm upgrading from a 7 year old CRT. I can't think I'd be anything but impressed with the 700.

The Toshiba MT700 offers the HD2+ DMD and Faroudja processing, but not many other frills. I suspect that's how Toshiba can offer it for the MSRP we see. I also suspect the new BenQ will perform similarly and the cost difference between it and the Toshiba is probably related to the Faroudja processing. Who knows, I may completely wrong. :confused:

Due to the layout of my room, I think I'll put the PJ on a coffee table. So I'd like to know about light spill with this unit. Is there stray light from vents that would be distracting if the projector was to be set up on a coffee table in front of the viewers?

Also, I'd love to hear more feedback from Xbox users. Anyone tried playing any "dark" games? I'm thinking games like Splinter Cell or some others where there are a lot of shadows. How's the MT700's performance here?

On a final note, I know of one dealer that has the MT700 in stock, but if anyone would like to recommend any other reputable dealers I'd accept PMs with a huge "thank you". :D

Benchobi - I think either Mike or someone else said that they saw no light spill (if I remember correctly). As for Xbox shadows - I wonder how explosions look in Burnout 3 - hehehe.:cool:

edit: had some commentary on price levels (don't worry it was vague & within rules...mostly), but answered my own question (blamed the greedy salesman)

some questions for those who have the MT700 now (hope u can help):

1) noise level, in eco mode is it quiet ? (say compared to Sony HS51 and Sharp Z2k) ?

2) throw distance: earlier in the thread there is a post of the throw distance calculation. How accurate is that chart (based on your setup ?) I hope I can do 133" diag (116" wide) at 152" distance. Based on that chart I *may* be able to do it.

Thanks for you help.

1). The MT700 is pretty quiet. I won't say it's the quietest projector I've seen, but the 29 dB level that's been mentioned is probably correct. I haven't had the other two projectors you mentioned in the same room, so I couldn't compare.

2). The chart seems fairly accurate from my experience. A 116" wide screen would probably require 153", as the ratio on the short end is 1.32:1.

After reading 80 pages of the H77 thread I don't think spending more $$ necessarily means greater returns. So I think I'm going to quit pulling my hair out and just jump on the MT700 bandwagon. I'm upgrading from a 7 year old CRT. I can't think I'd be anything but impressed with the 700.

I also have been looking hard at the Optoma H77 due to the recent price reduction on this unit. I know that the H77 is still more expensive than the MT700, but I am willing to spend the extra money for a significanly better picture. My question is, has anyone seen both units and have an opinion on whether or not the Optoma would be worth the extra money? I have not seen either unit, but I have read the thread on the H77, and it seems to be an excellent unit. I understand that the Optoma has lens shift and power zoom, which I beleive that I can live without, since I will be ceiling mounting the pj. I just want to know about picture quality. Thanks

I got my 67mm ND2 filter. It does fit, but doesn't do so snugly. I'll have to think up some way to mount it.

You might try wrapping a rubber band around it.

Originally posted by TheLongshot
Hello,

I've been looking the past few months for a upgrade to my NEC LT150 (Yes, I still have one.). The best option was looking to be the AE700. Now, I see that the 720P DLPs are starting to come down to reason, and I have the Toshiba and the Benq to choose from.

Problem is, it looks like the lack of lens shift is going to kill it for me. My LT150 is table mounted, and even with the built-in shift that it has, I'd have to raise the projector's base a couple feet at least to clear my speakers. I'm not sure if this is going to be practical.

Ceiling mount isn't really an option in my room. (Concrete)

Why is it that the cheaper LCD projectors have lens shift, but these DLPs can't seem to manage it? Sure, it might look better, but if I can't get one into my room, what's the point?

Jason

Don't let that stop you. You can mount a wood plate to your cement ceiling for which you can mount a projector to buy using cement anchors. All you would need to do is buy a cement drill bit to drill the holes (no deeper than 2 inches needed), the cement anchors, and the anchor bolts. Then whollah, instant mounting plate. You can buy a cement drill bit from any hardware store along with the cement anchors.

I want to gauge how good current LCD technology is in producing a clear image that would be comparable to an NEC LT150. I have had so much trouble trying to locate a place in the Bay Area to demo an AE700. With all the difficulty, I think that I am just going to settle for a DLP knowing that even though I am not susceptible to rainbows, some of my viewing audience might be. I think that the Toshiba TDP MT700 is becoming more and more of an attractive option for me since I am well aware of a DLP's ability to render deep blacks and distinct gradient shadow detail. And the price is just so sexy!

Questions: I heard it mentioned that the MT700 has zero offset. Does that mean that the center of the lens aligns directly with the center of the projected image? And is there a throw chart for the MT700 available yet?

Originally posted by niggenz
Questions: I heard it mentioned that the MT700 has zero offset. Does that mean that the center of the lens aligns directly with the center of the projected image? And is there a throw chart for the MT700 available yet?

It means that the center of the lens aligns with the top of the projected image if ceiling mounted (bottom if table mounted). The throw is a minimum of 1.32:1 and a maximum of 1.79:1 (distance to screen/screen width).

Guys I love the thread, I am dying to see pics of someones setup? I need to get a visual of the mounting. I am more than likely buying next week.

If anyone can shoot a pic of the projector with say a dvd cover next to it for scale, that would make my night!


Anyone in here know where I can see one in action local to CT/NY/MA area?


I have always bought unseen, this time if possible I would like a demo.

I currently am borrowing a sp4805, and think it pretty amazing, however my screen is 7' wide and I sit about 13' back so pixel structure is there depending on lighting in the scene.

I am concerned however that this as an upgrade might be slightly anti-climactic?

I watch 60/40 dvd/hdtv.. but want to have a HD native display for the coming year or two..

Let's say money was not the issue( it is) But if I could spend an extra 400.00-500.00 on top of money I recieved from a previous projector/accy sale, do you guys think it's worth it over dealing with the pixels on the 4805? They are not terrible, I just imagine the MT700 as the 4805 with added rez, quieter and smoother.

Am I wrong? Is this thing the real deal or what?

On a side note, I can pick up an H77 with a spare bulb locally for the same price as the mt700...which would you guys choose?



Thanks,
I need screenies........(wringing hands)

researching that is. Pulled the trigger today and ordered the MT700. I expect to be waiting for me when I get back to the office on Friday. :D

Once I get it home I'll certainly put it through it's initial trials using DVD's and Xbox. I'd tell you what DVD player I have but you'd laugh. Let's just say we'll be seeing just how good it handles 480i, and that ain't over component either. ;) (yes, a DVD player upgrade is already planned)

I don't have a screen yet (planning to do DIY) so I'll be projecting on a wall initially.

I'm excited about it, and I'm looking forward to trying this puppy out.

-----------------------------

phisch:

I looked hard at the H77. I had almost decided to save my pennies a while longer for it. After reading 80 pages of that thread, I decided all projectors had their quirks and decided to save the extra $$ and jump in with one of the low cost HD2+ offerings. I'll take the extra money I would have spent on the projector and I'll upgrade my DVD player and might upgrade my sat receiver to HD as well. I'll admit, that screenshot of "the boy" that guitarman posted looked great!

Originally posted by MikeSRC
1). The MT700 is pretty quiet. I won't say it's the quietest projector I've seen, but the 29 dB level that's been mentioned is probably correct. I haven't had the other two projectors you mentioned in the same room, so I couldn't compare.

2). The chart seems fairly accurate from my experience. A 116" wide screen would probably require 153", as the ratio on the short end is 1.32:1.

Thank you Mike!

Originally posted by MikeSRC
It means that the center of the lens aligns with the top of the projected image if ceiling mounted (bottom if table mounted). The throw is a minimum of 1.32:1 and a maximum of 1.79:1 (distance to screen/screen width).

So it is perfect for ceiling mount in a standard 8 foot hight room. Wonderful!

Originally posted by spkrgeek
Hi All,

Are we sure that the MT700 is using the FLI23xx for deinerlacing AND scaling? I'm sure the Faroudja chip is used for deinterlacing, but the German fact sheet (http://www.toshiba.de/projektoren/resources/pdf/mt700_e.pdf) says the MT700 is using an "8-bit" chip from Oplus for the scaling. (see www.oplus.com (http://www.oplus.com) )

Not that it matters if the results are good, but I've never heard of Oplus. How does the MT700 perform scaling wise?

-Chris

maybe for something else; I happened to look around Benq and saw this in their "SenseEye" description (considering how close the BQ7700 and the tosh is):

Sharpness

‧Oplus Rembrandt-1 multimedia digital display processor
BenQ PE8700 features the market-leading Oplus' Rembrandt-1 Multimedia digital display processor chip. It's proprietary Display-to-Perfection technologies lead to high-quality linear and non-linear scaling for distortion-free image resizing and aspect ratio conversion. And it can also motion-adaptive video de-interlacing for artifact-free, optimum quality progressive scan images. Enhance your viewing experience by producing sharp, life-like images, and give you more control over what you see and how you see it.

from http://www.benq.com.sg/www/front/BenqMain.asp?MenuHead=131&ShowType=program&FileURL=product.asp&model=PE8700&dataid=3868&GenMenu=&RootId=0

How do you guys think the MT700 compares to the Sharp 2000 in terms of brightness and contrast (or picture quality in general)?

I've been following these 2 plus the BenQ 7700 trying to decide the way to go, but this kind of decision is no easy task! :)

Originally posted by GCG
How do you guys think the MT700 compares to the Sharp 2000 in terms of brightness and contrast (or picture quality in general)?


Because the Sharp has an Iris, you could have either better lumens and same contrast, or simliar lumens and almost double the on/off CR.

EDIT: The numbers may be wrong. See thread below.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=525804

R.

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
BTW, when I fed 480i via HDMI from my HDTivo I got "HDMI(Unsupported)", so it appears that 480i over HDMI does not work (i.e. no digital DCDi deinterlacing).


Has anyone else seem what FlyingGimp observed? That being 480i over HDMI does not appear to be supported. I would love to bypass the de-interlacing in my HVD-208 DVD player and leverage the better de-interlacing in the MT700 without having to go over component and the subsequent two A/D conversions that this entails.

BTW, how does 480i over component look. Maybe I am making a mountain out of a molehill ;)

Cheers,
Mark

Originally posted by niggenz
So it is perfect for ceiling mount in a standard 8 foot hight room. Wonderful!

That depends what screen you use. I also have a 8 ft room and was planning to use a 100" 16:9 screen.
Because I want the middle of the screen at eyehight this means that the top of my picture starts at aprox. 5.5 ft.
This means the projector also has to be at 5.5 feet which is quite awfull since i am 6.5 ft tall.
Any other people around here that can show me a thread or URL for a selfbuild or bought ceiling mount that is simple to adjust? I am not talking about a projector lift cause that's to complicated/expensive, more like a pole that has a pin and holes to adjust the height of the projector.

greetz Kjelt.

That's awfully low for a screen. The "ideal" is supposed to be 1/3rd of the screen height from the bottom. That would give you another 8". You could put the PJ on a low table, too. But that's your preference.

In my setup, my screen bottom is at the same height as my eyeballs, but I sit in a reclining chair (it's more comfortable that way). With my screen position, my spine is straight, no bending of my neck. But, that is my preference.

Kjelt,
Check out the Omnimount PDM-2 ceiling mount.

s7umks,
If I have followed this tread right, HDMI does not support 480i, however component looks great. Hope to be able to continue using my old Toshiba 5-disc player!

Look at the PDR mount for drop up to 12" and Omnimount for even longer drop. Thanks to those who contributed in earlier posts.

FOUND: Info about filtered and calibrated contrast ratio of MT700.

I was surfing on the internet for prices of the MT700 in europe and suddenly I discovered something very interesting:

At a german site (www.pipro.de) they are offering a Toshiba MT700, filtered and calibrated by Ekkehart Schmitt from www.Cine4Home.de.
Although there is no review on his Cine4Home-site it looks like he is already colour-filtering and calibrating these projectors (for dealers) at 6500K and then achieves an average on/off contrastratio of 2200:1!

let's hope there is a review about the MT700 at his site soon (because I am living in PAL-DVD based Netherlands I am very curious about judderfree HDMI-driving this projector at native resolution at 48 and 50Hz; and of course all other projector and picture quality issues).

Because of stiff LCD competition, DLP Projector prices are coming down :cool:, but it is still a large amount of money to spend without knowing all the facts before buying (although there is already many info available in this thread!).

_____________
Bas.

Bass, (or is it Bas?)

That's good information to know. For us in the US I still don't see a justification for the premium of the Benq over the Toshiba.

For us in the US I still don't see a justification for the premium of the Benq over the Toshiba.

I suspect that the BenQ 7700 will be sold for less compared to the Toshiba MT700 (and that seems logical to me, because the Toshiba contains a Faroudja de-interlace chip and the BenQ an in-house developed one which, most likely, will be cheaper).

Also in the past BenQ is known for its very aggresive street-pricing compared to others. But we only have to wait....

____________
Bas.

Take a look at the BenQ 7700 thread for more info on that. In the States, the 7700 is under BenQ's Home Cinema Partner Program, which requires vendors to adhere to a minimum advertised price, but it still may be available cheaper.

That's good news about the Cine4Home calibrating. Their reviews are just about the best around, so I'll be waiting to see if they have a review shortly (which you would expect since they're calibrating them). I'd also be interested in seeing what filters they're using and if they've found a way into the service menu yet.

Originally posted by Kjelt
That depends what screen you use. I also have a 8 ft room and was planning to use a 100" 16:9 screen.
Because I want the middle of the screen at eyehight this means that the top of my picture starts at aprox. 5.5 ft.
This means the projector also has to be at 5.5 feet which is quite awfull since i am 6.5 ft tall.
Any other people around here that can show me a thread or URL for a selfbuild or bought ceiling mount that is simple to adjust? I am not talking about a projector lift cause that's to complicated/expensive, more like a pole that has a pin and holes to adjust the height of the projector.

greetz Kjelt.

Kjelt,

Check out this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5174590#post5174590

It has exactly what you are refering to. Not sure if it is going to be long enought to accomodate your needs though. But check it out. Here is the eBay item number on the mount from a previous auction: 5760179867. Do a search and that should lead you to the same seller. Let us know how it goes.

Can anyone take some snap shots of the their unit? I am interested in seeing what the connection panel and looks like and where all the vents are on this unit.

The unit vents out the front, with an "intake' on the left side.

http://www.surfaudiovideo.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/mt700-lg.jpg

Here's the connection panel:

http://www.surfaudiovideo.com/graphics/mt700_2.jpg

Here's the controls:

http://www.surfaudiovideo.com/graphics/mt700_3.jpg

Anyone done any comparisions between the TDP-MT700 and the 800?

Are there any comprehensive feature and picture comparisons out there.

Given the big difference between MSRP and street on these things it isnt a huge jump in price between the 700 and 800. The question is it worth it and why?

The MT-800 is an OEM of the Infocus 7205, so you can use 7205 reviews for comparison. Big features for the 7205/MT800 over the MT700 are a 7 segment DVE wheel (no green worms), likely better lense, brighter (though how much is unclear without measurments from the MT700), known working 48hz timings. The MT700 is much quieter, at least according the specified ratings. They have wildly different throws.

Does anyone know where I can download a manual for the MT700? It's on my short list, but I would really like to read the manual before I get too excited.

Thanks.

Until Toshiba acknowledges the MT700's existence on their website, there won't be a downloadable manual available. Probably see it first on one of Toshiba's foreign websites.

Before I bought the PJ I e-mailed the German Toshiba website b/c they had info on the PJ, and they sent me a pdf of the manual. I tried to link it but it is 1.5Mb so I could not.

If there is someone that can do something w/ it, I will be happy to send it.

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
The MT-800 is an OEM of the Infocus 7205, so you can use 7205 reviews for comparison. Big features for the 7205/MT800 over the MT700 are a 7 segment DVE wheel (no green worms), likely better lense, brighter (though how much is unclear without measurments from the MT700), known working 48hz timings. The MT700 is much quieter, at least according the specified ratings. They have wildly different throws.

So how noticeable are the green worms (also at what size screen and what brightness level)? I have a 56" DL RP with 6 segs and although many have said they see worms I haven't -- I assume on a bigger screen they are more apparrent.

Thanks Mike, I'll contact you before I buy.

PaulKahlon -- Thanks for the offer. I sent you a PM with my email address. You won't have any problem there (plenty of room in my mailbox).

PaulK you have PM! :)

Thanks,
TJ

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
The MT-800 is an OEM of the Infocus 7205, so you can use 7205 reviews for comparison. Big features for the 7205/MT800 over the MT700 are a 7 segment DVE wheel (no green worms), likely better lense, brighter (though how much is unclear without measurments from the MT700), known working 48hz timings. The MT700 is much quieter, at least according the specified ratings. They have wildly different throws.


So if costs were the same which would you choose? The MT800 / 7205 is about a year old now. The MT700 appears to a huge amount quieter. Are there any other advantages why someone would want a MT700 over the MT800 though? Some improvements had to have been made (over then lower an noise) that make the choice less clear between the MT700 and MR800 or other being noiser is the MT800 clearly better in every way?

If the throw and the noise work for you, then the 7205/MT800 probably throws a better image. If they were exactly the same price I'd get the 7205. If it was $1000-$1500 more, I'd go with the MT700 and put the difference in my piggy bank for a 1080p DLP. Note I have not actually seen the 7205 - this is just based on reviews and Infocus' reputation. Check out www.ecoustics.com (http://www.ecoustics.com) for reviews.

Sitting 1.5x back from the screen width I can't see green worms, even before my ND2 filter. I can see them in the 1.0x range. Assuming you have brightness set correctly, the worry of green worms at normal viewing distances seems a little overblown to me.

After a couple nights watching with a Hoya ND2 HMC filter, I think it may be the best $40 I've spent in HT. Assuming the MT700 puts out around 700-800 lumens (who knows?), then I'm now right around 12ftL, the brightness of a standard movie.

At this brightness level everything seems much more movie-like. Both the 4805 and MT700 had much better black level than my PLV-Z1. I thought both DLP's black levels were pretty good, though I was aware that full black looked dark grey. Now for the first time with digital pj black actually looks black to me (compared against my CRT HD RPTV).

I also think I'm seeing fewer MPEG artifacts. My white room is significantly less lit up now as well, which seems to improve darker scenes. I still need to do some AB/ing on test scenes with and without the filter to better describe all the improvements.

BTW, a watershed moment for me: my wife says to kids, "Tonight after you go to sleep, Daddy and I are going up to watch the projector." This is the first time it was her idea. She's one those "people" who would be happy with a 5" screen 15' away. Sadly she still could care less about anything HT related. She just likes how the MT700's throw has allowed me to improve the room layout.

Ok, it's late, but I can't seem to tear myself out of this chair. I've been playing with my new toy for about two hours now (thanks Mike!). Right now I'm feeding SD from my sat receiver and letting the de-interlacer do its thing. So far I'm very happy with the 700. Except for bumping the sharpness up a couple of notches, I have done zero for calibration so it should only get better from here.

I've auditioned DLP a number of times and have never seen rainbows. I don't think I'm sensitive to them. For me, so far no problem with rainbows on the 700. I have to confess I'm not up to speed on what green worms are, so we'll go with ignorance is bliss and say no problem there too. :)

The short throw of the projector works well for me. It's also plenty bright. In fact, when all is said and done I may have to follow FG's lead and add a filter to knock the light back a little. We'll see once I get my screen up and get the PJ adjusted.

Overall I think I made a good choice for a first projector. I'm gonna enjoy it.

I'm glad to read that Benchobi. I'm on the fence right now. I'll either get the Panasonic AE700 or spend an extra 2000$ CDN for this one. Decisions... decisions... God help me.

I'll use mine mainly for gaming (Xbox/Gamecube), you wouldn't happen to be a gamer as well and tell me what kind of results you get?

I've posted the owner's manual for download on my website. Here's a link to the manual. Just right-click and save: MT700 Owner's Manual (http://www.surfaudiovideo.com/downloads/MT700_manual.pdf)

Thanks to PaulKahlon for providing the manual. :)

Anybody using an upconverting DVD player like the Zenith DVB318 through HDMI and know how good it looks? I have that dvd player and want to feed 1080i through HDMI once I get it and was interested in the quality of the image. Hopefully in mid May I can have the Toshiba in house, I am really pumped about going from a dinky X1 up to a full HD projector.

Originally posted by MikeSRC
I've posted the owner's manual for download on my website. Here's a link to the manual. Just right-click and save: MT700 Owner's Manual (http://www.surfaudiovideo.com/downloads/MT700_manual.pdf)

Thanks to PaulKahlon for providing the manual. :)

What the hell is going on here!!!!

Did I miss something here? I am looking through the MT700's manual and I come upon a frontal shot of the MT700 on page 21. And right on the front of this shot is the lable that says BenQ!!?? It clearly isn't the same projector but isn't that a bit funny? Did Toshiba OEM the MT700 from BenQ?

It's been widely discussed since both models were announced and shown at CES. So yes, apparently Benq manufactures both projectors. And I've a feeling that the Benq will be discussed a lot on the over $3500 forum while the MT700 will be overlooked.

Edit: I just looked at page 21 and there it is. It's a picture of the Benq model , not the Toshiba. That's pretty funny.

AMaench- a DVI upconverting player is the way to go- just be sure and set it for 720 output- the native res of the projector.

MikeSRC:

Thanks for the manual.

Can one of you lucky guys who has one of these units check to see if the vertical position (in the display menu) is adjustable through HDMI or component? The manual is a bit contradictory on this. It's a feature that I need.

Thanks,
Pip

1) First of all to all the people here giving good links and info for projector mounts: THANKS! :)

2)CT_Wiebe, you wrote:
>>That's awfully low for a screen. The "ideal" is supposed to be 1/3rd of the screen height from the bottom
I think you are right, my mistake, 1/3 is much better, thanks!

>>In my setup, my screen bottom is at the same height as my eyeballs
Yeah I have done that 3 years ago, since the screen was also too close, my neck still aches thinking about it ;)

>>You could put the PJ on a low table, too.
Since I do not have a hollow (wooden)floor but concrete, I find all the cables running to the center of the room (where the table should reside) such a mess. :(

Wall mount is due to roomsize also not an option. I am going for a ceilingmount but will probably build my own (with the given links as examples) since I also want to fit my ISCOII anamorphic lens on it for 1:2.35 source. I hope the zoom on the Toshiba is large enough for this so I can fix the projector position.

The manual was supplied by Toshiba in Germany, so it's a prerelease version and is not exactly the same as the U.S. manual. It's all that's available in PDF form for now. The manual that comes with the MT700 actually has a few more pages and some slight differences in the text (as well as having the proper picture ;) ).

Originally posted by emailists
AMaench- a DVI upconverting player is the way to go- just be sure and set it for 720 output- the native res of the projector.
I know it would be the native of the projector but wouldn't I get more lines and little better picture if I fed it 1080i? Sure its not native but I am craming more lines into the same space which i think would look really good, or would the native image be spot on for pixels and bring it out that much more?

Mr.Green asked:

I'll use mine mainly for gaming (Xbox/Gamecube), you wouldn't happen to be a gamer as well and tell me what kind of results you get?
Absolutely. That's one reason I chose DLP. I spent all day building a Parkland screen and just played about 30 mins of XBox through component. Results were certainly acceptable to me! :D Keep in mind this is my first projector so I don't have anything else to compare to except my old RPTV.

Pip asked:

Can one of you lucky guys who has one of these units check to see if the vertical position (in the display menu) is adjustable through HDMI or component?
Wish I could help but I don't have the right cables to hook a PC to the PJ. The manual says this option is only available when a PC signal is selected.

I know it would be the native of the projector but wouldn't I get more lines and little better picture if I fed it 1080i? Sure its not native but I am craming more lines into the same space which i think would look really good, or would the native image be spot on for pixels and bring it out that much more?
The projector will only show 720 lines, no matter how many lines you attempt to "cram" into it. What happens if you push 1080 into it is that the projector will then have to compress it. Unfortunately for picture quality, my understanding of the way that is usually done to get from 1080i to 720p is to first downconvert to 540p, then upconvert to 720p. Therefore, what you have done is take the 480p from the DVD itself, upconvert to 1080i in the DVD player, downconvert to 540p in the projector, and then upconvert to 720p in the projector. That is a total of 4 conversions, each of which may introduce artifacts. The resulting picture will certainly not be better than an initial upconversion to 720p, and may be well nigh on unwatchable.

Add to that the fact that many will argue that 720p actually looks better than 1080i anyway, and I'd definitely recommend 720p in the first place.

Originally posted by Pip
Can one of you lucky guys who has one of these units check to see if the vertical position (in the display menu) is adjustable through HDMI or component?

It's not available with HDMI, but it is with component, presumably with any source since it was available with a DVD player connected.

I've also read that the DVB318 outputs a good 1080i image, but does not do so well on 720p. If you go with a 720p projector, then you should consider selling the 318 and going with a Denon 1910 or Bravo D2 (among others). These each have their own problems: 1910 has macroblocking while the D2 doesn't do so hot on incorrectly flagged DVDs. However either does do 720p upscaling well. 1:1 mapping to the native resolution of the projector (i.e. 720p for the MT700) is is night and day clearer than any sort of scaling inside the projector.

Of course a decent HTPC will likely give you the best picture, though it is a little work.

benchobi - did you have to change NTSC Mode to Japan in 480p component to avoid losing dark detail? The initial units (at least 2) definitely had a problem with clipping blacks over component. This is very evident from a DVD player with any sort of ramp (I used the DVE reverse gray ramp).

There are some posts from me on this further back in the thread. I actually thought it was playable before I changed this, but it was night and day better and just looked "right" afterwards.

Originally posted by MikeSRC
I have the ability to measure CR with OpticOne, but I don't put much stock in CR measurements in my evaluation of a projector. In any event, I'm going to compare whatever results I get with the MT700 to the 4805 and H31 in the same setting and post the results.

Hey Mike, any word on about when you expect to make this comparison? Another week or 2 maybe??

I'm most interested in the OTB results of the 4805 and H31 over DVI and any differences in dark scene dithering, focus uniformity.

I know, I know, this thread is for the MT700....

Fleaman

PaulKahlon -- Thanks again for the manual.

MikeSRC -- I hope the US version changes didn't alter the basic manual context or format. That is the most precise, logical, well organized, and easy to read manual (for electronic equipment) that I have ever seen. It makes the Panasonic and Pioneer manuals look like disorganized garbage.

If the MT700 projector is anything like the manual, it's got to be a real winner. Now, I have to find out if I'm sensitive to RBE, and I may have to put a ND filter on it (it may be too bright for my new Da-Lite High-Power screen).

BTW, I would think that Toshiba would OEM to BenQ, not the other way around. BenQ may have done the original design, but Toshiba is the manufacturing giant and has the economy of scale.

If the BenQ 7205 is similar to the MT800, which BenQ model is the MT700 similar to?

MMM a quick question. When are the screen shots coming?

originally posted by MikeSRC:

It's not available with HDMI, but it is with component, presumably with any source since it was available with a DVD player connected.

Thanks for checking. One more question: Was that at 480, or was it at a higher resolution? The manual at one point states that it's only available at DTV resolutions.

Thanks.
Pip

I have read page 22 from the manual 3 times but can not see or understand if the projector can do the following: :confused:

a DVD with 1:2.35 source material (lot of black bars) can the projector do a zoom AND vertical stretch so that it becomes anamorphic (so it fills the entire 16:9 dlp but not in the correct aspect ratio so people in the movie look too tall and thin so you need an anamorphic lens to stretch horizontally again for correct aspect ratio)?

As far as i can interpret the manual (page 22), it can do zoom (option3) but then there must be still black bars on top and bottom or I loose left and right a piece of the picture.
The option 4) Theater Wide is the opposite of what I want, it stretches horizontally, I want to stretch vertically.

Any of you lucky ones that already own a MT700, can you tell me if this is possible?

Thanks in advance,

Kjelt

Hey Mike, any word on about when you expect to make this comparison? Another week or 2 maybe??

I was hoping to do it yesterday, but I suddenly got an invasion of relatives. ;) I'll get to it this week. From past measurements of the 4805, they seem to be very similar.

I hope the US version changes didn't alter the basic manual context or format.

No, it's just a few words (and pictures obviously) here and there. There is also an added page with the pin outs of the DIN connector, as well as a list of RS232 commands.

If the BenQ 7205 is similar to the MT800, which BenQ model is the MT700 similar to?

The new PE7700, due out tomorrow (see the separate thread). Odd as it may seem, I believe that BenQ is the OEM of the MT700, just as InFocus is for the MT800.

Was that at 480, or was it at a higher resolution?

480p

Originally posted by CT_Wiebe
BTW, I would think that Toshiba would OEM to BenQ, not the other way around. BenQ may have done the original design, but Toshiba is the manufacturing giant and has the economy of scale.

Actually, no. Toshiba may be the larger organization, but they get other manufacturers to make many (all?) of their DLPs. As Mike alludes, Infocus makes their MT800, and BenQ makes their MT700. That being said, in the case of the latter, Toshiba seems to have made some design decisions that do differentiate it from the original manufacturer's product (e.g. deinterlacer). However, the only difference between the MT800 and IF7205 appears to be the firmware, and it seems that the former in this case gets the firmware updates sooner.

Ciao,
Raul

FG:

I definitely noticed a change in black level by setting the NTSC mode to Japan. I still haven't had the chance to do any major tweaking to see how this affects things. Judging from what I saw I'd say mine more than likely functions identically to yours. I'll let you know more once I have the chance to play with the settings.

I'm pretty sure they're all that way. You need to have the NTSC mode set to Japan to get proper black levels on the component inputs for anything above 480i. If it's set to U.S., it crushes blacks below 15 IRE. There's a few posts earlier about this and I'm still waiting for a response from Toshiba. It seems to be a simple enough firmware fix.

Thanks for the info. I was looking at some of the old reviews on PJC. Evan said the same thing on an old Tosh PJ DLP review. Now I wonder how many other products Tosh sells that are also OEM from other mfgs.

Well I joined the club of the Mt700 today! I should have it Wed, I got it with one of those Warrantech bulb warranties, and my Paypal cash back bonus covered most of the bulb warranty cost. I usually don't buy those but, at least you have recourse after 500hrs for a net of less than 40.00 bucks.

Anyone in here have any pics or suggestions for a clean ceiling mount? I am not opposed to diy, and actually prefer it.

Finally, anyone suggest a clean upconverting HDMI dvd player for my wife to use with it? I am the HTPC guy, but the "frontend" is not all linked yet, so until then, I need a decent player to push out my ol' RP56 and go digital..

There was nothing else at this price point in DLP that could touch the feature set, My hope is for this to take me out 2years until 1080p and Blu-ray are in the atmosphere....


I also received an e-mail form someone that saw both the Benq and the Toshiba at CES and he said the Toshiba looked considerably better?

All speculation, I can't wait...


TJ

Originally posted by tehotaone
Anyone in here have any pics or suggestions for a clean ceiling mount? I am not opposed to diy, and actually prefer it.

There's a pretty good DIY mount on this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=232749).

Finally, anyone suggest a clean upconverting HDMI dvd player for my wife to use with it? I am the HTPC guy, but the "frontend" is not all linked yet, so until then, I need a decent player to push out my ol' RP56 and go digital..

The Panasonic S97 with the current firmware (reducing macroblocking) is pretty good for the price, or if it's only short term, one of the Toshibas.

I also received an e-mail form someone that saw both the Benq and the Toshiba at CES and he said the Toshiba looked considerably better?


I'd agree with that, but I don't think that the BenQ was set up properly when I saw it.

Thanks for all the help. I have 2 more questions.

1. Does the MT700 have a sealed panel assembly (like some DLP PJs do)?

2. How does one change the dust filter and how often? The manual doesn't say, and doesn't even show where it's located. The only reference to a dust filter is in the "Additional Information" section at the end of the manual.

The reason for the questions are that I have a fairly dusty environment, and LCD PJs require frequent filter cleaning to prevent dust blobs, etc.

Toshiba at CES and he said the Toshiba looked considerably better?
the BenQ that was at CES was a prototype thrown together for CES and the PQ on it was not even near what the Finished product will be.....thats what I heard anyway

Im not tryin to bash the Toshiba, it may very well be in my future, but I am waiting for it to be compared to the BenQ before I buy

I think I may have found the answer to my question #1 -- the BenQ 7700 has a sealed light engine, so I'm assuming the MT700 does too.

Travis R -- The equivalent BenQ may be slightly better, but I'm fiscally challanged (retired) so I have to watch my nickles. Given that the de-interlacer is better in the MT700, and the predicted price (street) differential between the two, I think the MT700 is more "bang for the buck".

EDIT: I still have to decide between the Z3, the AE700 and the MT700. The major factors are: Price, PQ, and will it work in my current HT setup (I sit at 1.43 x screen width). My setup works fine with my present Panny L300, but an upgrade-itis to a 1280 x720 PJ is getting pretty strong.

Originally posted by CT_Wiebe
2. How does one change the dust filter and how often? The manual doesn't say, and doesn't even show where it's located. The only reference to a dust filter is in the "Additional Information" section at the end of the manual.

The reason for the questions are that I have a fairly dusty environment, and LCD PJs require frequent filter cleaning to prevent dust blobs, etc.

There is no dust filter. The reference to it you see in the German manual was removed in the U.S. manual. This is not unusual for DLP projectors with a sealed light engine. Some (if not all) of the Optomas don't have dust filters either.

Originally posted by CT_Wiebe

Travis R -- The equivalent BenQ may be slightly better, but I'm fiscally challanged (retired) so I have to watch my nickles. Given that the de-interlacer is better in the MT700, and the predicted price (street) differential between the two, I think the MT700 is more "bang for the buck".


Claus,

I also have a limited budget and am looking at this purchase to last me at least 3 years before upgrading again. Something to consider is the warranty period. The Benq comes with a 3 year warranty. I'm not sure what the warranty is for the Toshiba.

2 years, but the bulb's more likely to be your big expense item in that 2-3 year time period IMO.

I totally agree with Mike here, The bulb replacement is your real concern.
That is why I purchased an extended 3yr warranty on the the bulb that covers you for two within the 3yr period. That means you would have to burn through 3 of them in 3yrs to ever expect a charge. Now, hopefully the warranty company stands behind this and it is not a circus to get it replaced.

But at least you have someone to complain to and some sort of insurance on it. Bulbs are funny like that, they can go 2years or 2 months.


I recommend buying the warranty for less than 100.00 (MSRP :) ) and not worry about it and enjoy the show...

I am reasonably sure this warranty will not be available for too long, so you might want to "get in" on it before they realize the P+L going to hell.

Maybe I am wrong.....


TJ

As I am thinking about it, I need to place some orders for the appropriate cabling.

I just ordered a 67mm Hoya ND2 filter per this thread's findings

I ordered a hdmi-dvi-d cable for my comcast HD box

I have a 5 bnc breakout vga for my vga connection to a 6600gt

I need a good 75ohm component snake for dvd for now

I'll make a svideo out of cat5 for the PIP function


Can anyone comment on these connections? and if I should consider a dvi switcher? From experience which connection seems to provide the cleanest film style image?

I would like to go HDMI for DVD player and WAF reasons, the same holds true for the PC, but a decent switcher is well over 200.00, and will it degrade the signal to make it's improvement a wash in lieu of component via 5 bnc, and comonent 1?

Ahhhhh, too many possiblities :)




Thanks,
TJ

Originally posted by tehotaone
I totally agree with Mike here, The bulb replacement is your real concern.
That is why I purchased an extended 3yr warranty on the the bulb that covers you for two within the 3yr period. That means you would have to burn through 3 of them in 3yrs to ever expect a charge. Now, hopefully the warranty company stands behind this and it is not a circus to get it replaced.

But at least you have someone to complain to and some sort of insurance on it. Bulbs are funny like that, they can go 2years or 2 months.


I recommend buying the warranty for less than 100.00 (MSRP :) ) and not worry about it and enjoy the show...

I am reasonably sure this warranty will not be available for too long, so you might want to "get in" on it before they realize the P+L going to hell.

Maybe I am wrong.....


TJ

I thought those extended bulb warranty only extends the original warranty of the bulb, which is 500 hours or 90 days (whichever comes first). Doesn't buying those warranty now make it 500 hours or 3 years (whichever is first, most likely the 500hrs)?

Has anybody looked at the PQ at different zoom distances for the lens? Is there any noticeable issue from using max distance vs somewhere in the middle of the zoom is my real question. I want the PJ ceiling mounted as far as possible from the screen, dictated by my room and preferred screen size.

I am just about convinced to switch to this from the Panny 700 (future purchase, this will be my first PJ), but the shorter throw makes it an issue. The Panny solves this quite nicely with the huge throw range.

Originally posted by Ja Phule
I thought those extended bulb warranty only extends the original warranty of the bulb, which is 500 hours or 90 days (whichever comes first). Doesn't buying those warranty now make it 500 hours or 3 years (whichever is first, most likely the 500hrs)?

I don't know about any others, but according to Warrantech, there is no hour limit on the warranty. It's up to two bulbs in three years, regardless of the hours.

Originally posted by tehotaone
Can anyone comment on these connections? and if I should consider a dvi switcher? From experience which connection seems to provide the cleanest film style image?

HDMI (or DVI) to the HDMI input is by far the best. You get 1:1 pixel mapping at 720p and I haven't noticed any issues (artifacts or image shift) with a feed from both a Bravo D2 upscaling DVDplayer or a Samsung DirecTv STB I'm using. I haven't tried a DVI switch yet, but that's likely to be next. ;)

So Mike, you are saying the scaler in the Bravo D2 is better than the processor in the MT700?
Warren.

Originally posted by MikeSRC
I don't know about any others, but according to Warrantech, there is no hour limit on the warranty. It's up to two bulbs in three years, regardless of the hours.

Cool, I'll have to look more into this when it comes time for me to upgrade.

Originally posted by wnielsenbb
So Mike, you are saying the scaler in the Bravo D2 is better than the processor in the MT700?
Warren.

Good question. The Bravo is known for excellent scaling (if not deinterlacing), so they're probably close. If the Bravo could output 480i over DVI, it would be an interesting comparison since you'd include the Faroudja deinterlacing of the MT700. 480i over component with the Bravo certainly looks better than 480p.

Mike................

Then try having the Bravo send your 700 a 1080i signal....

That way we can use the good scaler in the Bravo and the Faroudja de-interlacer in the projector........

. . . and the scaler in the MT700. I've tried that and it's not as good as 720p IMO. Probably due to the extra scaling.

So, does this thing have correct ATSC color spacing for HDTV signals, as some were saying the NTSC: Japan mode stays on for 720p or is this only if it's hit with sources using the NTSC color spacing rules?

Dan

Originally posted by MikeSRC
. . . and the scaler in the MT700. I've tried that and it's not as good as 720p IMO. Probably due to the extra scaling.

That uses the de-interlacer in the Bravo then instead of the Faroudja in the MT-700 correct?

I believe it does ATSC color decoding correctly. At least in A/Bing the MT700 to the 4805 I saw no glaring differences.

From the behavior I've seen
"NTSC Mode: Japan / USA" really maps to:
"Black Setup: no / yes"

It does have a number of video mode selections. If I play with these the colors become wrong. However I don't see an ATSC one, NTSC and NTSC 4.43 are the only American ones.

If there are any obvious things to look for I can certainly keep an eye out for color conversion mis-selection.

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread. Does any one tested HDMI 480i/576i on the projector? Does it support the format? Thanks in advance.

regards,

Li On

Correct me if I've mistaken something here. I just want to confirm the following about this projector:

- It has HDMI that works

- It has 1:1 pixel mappijng at 1280x720

- Save for one confusing menu verbiage issue, it has no glaring IQ issues

- It's far less expensive than its contemporary competition

- It is competitive with equal or more expensive models

- It is fairly well built.

- For its current street price, there probably won't be substantially "better" deals available throughout calendar 2005.

Are the above assumptions accurate? If so, I see no reason not to place an order first thing tomorrow morning. What are the "gotchas" with this projector?

Li On, (great to have you on this thread, by the way)

480i over HDMI is not supported. MikeSRC checked it. The post is a couple of pages back.

Originally posted by sphinx99
What are the "gotchas" with this projector?

Well..

The Zero Offset could create problems for some folks.

Just FYI - I tried plugging in my Mac G5 tonight to the MT700 via DVI.- it was recognized instantly and booted up at 1280x720. The 700 will run at 50 or 60 hz. The image looks outstanding. I wish I could afford to burn bulbs just to surf the web and do computer work, but I can't.

update:

I tried playing a DVD from the mac. WHile it looked pretty good at first, after seeing some red colors, this video card must have the chroma sampling bug. The Radeon 9600 XT in my dual 2.5 is the lowest end card (soon to be replaced with an X800). Fine for casual viewing, but I don't intend on using the mac as a HTPC.

The zero offset is quite bad as I would think few people with ceiling mounts have the top of the screen at the roof. Dropping the projector to screen level is not good in my house, putting the projecor in harms way. The short throw with little zoom is another problem, especially for those of us who want to add a 2.35 lens. We are pretty much restricted to the vertical compression types I believe. It is such a good deal though.
Warren.

Originally posted by MikeSRC
I'm pretty sure they're all that way. You need to have the NTSC mode set to Japan to get proper black levels on the component inputs for anything above 480i. If it's set to U.S., it crushes blacks below 15 IRE. There's a few posts earlier about this and I'm still waiting for a response from Toshiba. It seems to be a simple enough firmware fix.

I am using a MT700 and the NTSC mode is set to Japan and it cannot be changed to any other country. I have set the NTSC mode to both manual and auto and it still shows Japan and it will not switch to any other country. Do you think this indicates a malfunction?

Originally posted by leckian
I am using a MT700 and the NTSC mode is set to Japan and it cannot be changed to any other country.

See this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5364790#post5364790).

Here my answer to a PM on the ND2 filter which might be generally useful:

The MT700 seems very similar to the 4805 in contrast and brightness out of the box.

For me the ND2 is a must, now that I've seen it. The black, while not a CRT black, actually falls into what I would call black. While it is technically 2x less bright, I don't notice any lack of brightness in a lights out white room. White still looks bright white to me.

Of course this is all very dependent on screen size. I'm at 70" wide. Results could be significantly different on bigger screen.

Given how cheap the ND2 filters are I say it's worth a shot. Supposedly the Hoya HMC multi-coat reduces loss of ansi contrast, though I've not compared against other filters.

Well, I got some money in and couldn't stand waiting any longer, so I've ordered my MT700 and it'll ship tomorrow! Woohoo! Price was reasonable and I couldn't stand waiting to hear about the BenQ any longer. Plus, I don't think I can afford the BenQ anyway if its a dollar more expensive :P

I'll be really mad if the BenQ ends up better and cheaper. Prepare for venting in that case :)

I'll post my newbie impressions when it comes in....

(dang it now I have to find a screen!)

Originally posted by MikeSRC
See this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5364790#post5364790).

Got it! Thanks

I'm still wondering (price not a concern) is it a better choice to when mounting the projector directly above the viewing position with a 80 - 120in screen sitting 10 - 12 feet away:


(1) Get a TM800 / 7205
- Deal with the extra noise and / or try and hush box it.
- Get a possiably better picture

(2) Get a TM700
- Not worry about any nosie since it's near 10db quieter
- Deal with a potentialy worse picture (worms)

Any throughts from those that have seen or owned both choices.

It just seems like the TM700 is almost a year newer and has to be better then the TM800 / 7205 but maybe thats not the case. Is the TM800 / 7205 better in every case, except the fan noise?

I get the other question is Toshiba planning to replace the TM800. From what I read not for some time.

I think the Optima H79 would be better if price doesn't matter that much.

Should I take it as a sign that my income tax refund just came to the exact same amount that I saw the 700 street priced for earlier today?

Now that some of our more learned brethern have the mt700 in their hands, I have to ask - is it truly worth the approx $750 street price difference between it and the ae700 if I plan to keep it for two and a half years before upgrading to a 1080i machine? I am sitting with a x1 right now and I do love the dlp image.

JeremyMc -- If price is "of no concern", why are you even considering the MT700/BenQ 7700? Why not just go with the Optoma H79 (it's even quieter, 23 dB -- 4 times quieter -- and an 8 segment, 5x color wheel). But the H79 is in the "over $3500" forum.

You're here because price is important. BTW, the Infocus 7210 is the updated version of the 7205.

Based on my research over the past 3 months, the MT700/BenQ 7700 give the most bang-for-the-buck of any DLP projector in the 1280 x 720 class. The "worms" (overblown IMHO) can be handled by proper calibration and, possibly, using a ND2 filter (see other posts on this thread).

jsm88 -- I hope to have that answer (for me) by sometime next week. I have a Panny L300 (960 x 540) and I'm considering the Z3, AE700, and the MT700. Hopefully MikeSRC may have some test data by then too.

BTW, your street price differential is too high.

Originally posted by CT_Wiebe
JeremyMc -- If price is "of no concern", why are you even considering the MT700/BenQ 7700? Why not just go with the Optoma H79 (it's even quieter, 23 dB -- 4 times quieter -- and an 8 segment, 5x color wheel). But the H79 is in the "over $3500" forum.

You're here because price is important. BTW, the Infocus 7210 is the updated version of the 7205.

Based on my research over the past 3 months, the MT700/BenQ 7700 give the most bang-for-the-buck of any DLP projector in the 1280 x 720 class. The "worms" (overblown IMHO) can be handled by proper calibration and, possibly, using a ND2 filter (see other posts on this thread).

My reference was meant to price not a concern between the two Toshiba models The reason being I have access to accommodation discounts on the Toshiba products which puts the MT700 & MT800 into a much cheaper ballpark then I can get the Optoma H79 on the street for. I'm having a hard time sorting through the real world advantages / disadvantages of the two.

Gotcha :D! I suggest reading the last page of the *OFFICIAL* BenQ PE7700 thread, post #164, by "presenter" {he says that he'll post a preliminary review on his site tomorrow night}.

His initial impression was that the PE7700 was better than the PE8700+. I'm going to look at a IF 4805 & 7205 in the next two days. If I'm not susceptable to their rainbows, then the MT700 just went to #1+++ on my upgrade chart.

my differential is including the panny rebate - might as well use the actual takehome when making these comparisons

Let's face it, the MT700 is so 'last week.'

Can I stop a UPS shipment of my junk? :) I don't want this outdated POS anymore... I never have seen something go obsolete in shipment before!?!?


Just kidding, although I am curious about the Senseye/Faroujia situation?



TJ

jsm88 -- So was I, including discounts, shipping, tax & license :D.

emailists -- Spoken like a true New Yorker :p.

tehotaone -- BenQ implies it scales and does some kind of contrast enhancement. No one knows, or is talking, about what it actually does :confused: (at least on the PE7700 thread). I haven't checked the "Over $3500" threads to see if anyone their knows - that price range is over my budget.

Let's face it, the MT700 is so 'last week.'

Yuck, yuck... :)

I finally hooked up the MT700 and it looks very nice. I only have it on a tray right now and plan on ceiling mounting it later. The 20 foot DVI to HDMI cable works with no discernable issues. I haven't had a lot of time to play because I've been working lots of hours. A major project at work went active on Monday when the PJ arrived. BUT I watched a sample of my favorite movie, Ben Hur on Tuesday night and literally teared up watching it. It looked so good that it looked like a big window that I could just climb through. But, I am just a simple mind that is easily pleased and not as disciminating as some of you. But a big thank you to those of you who commented, answered my PMs, and provided great feedback. Kudos especially to emailists and Flyinggimp. You all were extremely helpful and it is much appreciate.

MikeSRC is the man, very helpful, no BS, and a great deal.

Charlie

Originally posted by CT_Wiebe
jsm88 -- I hope to have that answer (for me) by sometime next week. I have a Panny L300 (960 x 540) and I'm considering the Z3, AE700, and the MT700. Hopefully MikeSRC may have some test data by then too.


I am resolved to get the comparisons made by this weekend. I've done some preliminary evaluation of the 4805 and MT700 and it appears that the post-calibration lumen outputs of each are similar, with the 4805 being slightly higher. I'm going to refrain from posting any numbers until I have a chance to look at both (and the H31) using DVI/HDMI, which is where the MT700 really shines IMO. Also, I'm using the CR measurement feature of OpticOne for the first time, so I need a little more time with it to make a fair evaluation.

Looking at the Benq 7700 thread, it appears that the Senseye processing doesn't have an on/off switch per se, but may only be engaged in "Home Theater" mode, which would be fine. I can't imagine it being on all the time in every mode.

Hi Mike,

can you please check if the MT700 is capable of displaying full screen 1:2.35 with anamorphic picture in the way that i posted a request a few pages back

thanks!

Kjelt.

I gotta echo Chazmo's sentiments. I haven't had too much time to read the forums. I got my 700 last week and I already have 22 hrs on it. :eek:

Lovin' very minute of it. Oh, and I may NEVER yet tired of Burnout 3 on a 100+ inch Screen. :D

Lovin' very minute of it. Oh, and I may NEVER yet tired of Burnout 3 on a 100+ inch Screen.

EXTREME SHUNT!

(sorry back on topic)

After reading about the "Home Theater" setting on the BenQ which apparently uses Senseye and hearing how it did a fantastic job on a starfield scene in Star Wars, I am curious if maybe this feature could prove to be a reason to pay the extra money for the 7700. But who knows, maybe the 700 can be calibrated to produce the same picture...??.

Benchobi.........

Can you verify that the "offset" for this projector is zero?

In other words with the projector level, either right side up or upside down.. how far above or below the image is the center of your lens... and how far back from the screen is the lens?

Thanks,

Somewhere a BenQ marketeer has earned his wings.

I'd be shocked if Sense-Eye can achieve anything a good Avia/DVE run through can't. It could be creating a contrasty look by brightening near white detail and lowering near-black detail, but I don't think I'd want my pj doing that. It be good for someone to look at a gray ramp with it on and off to see.

Sense-Eye also sounds like it might read ambient light during start-up and set brightness/contrast automatically. I've heard of RPTVs that have this sort of feature.

That said I'll have to check out how that starfield scene looks on my MT700. I don't think I'll be counting the number of stars though... Any volunteers?

Gimp.........

Mike and Presenter (Art) that are currently reviewing the 7700 have mentioned that they have not found a way to turn Senseye on or off... it seems to be some type of automatic function.

Stevo:

The manual shows the center of the lens being the top edge (or bottom) of the image. I have confirmed this is pretty much accurate. Right now I have the projector set about 8.5 ft from the screen and I'm getting a 70" diagonal 4.3 image with a little zoom. I'll admit, a little more offset or lens shift would be nice, but I'm willing to work around it.

Right, but presenter mentioned that switching to Home Theater mode is what made the stars suddenly appear. Assuming MikeSRC's theory that Sense-Eye is enabled only in Home Theater is correct then one could compare Cinema vs. Home Theater (both pre-calibrated, of course). It sounds like presenter is going to talk to a BenQ rep, so hopefully he'll get the straight poop on Sense-Eye.

FlyingGimp: Somewhere a BenQ marketeer has earned his wings.

Haha, naw - I'd say its more me phrasing my post incorrectly than a BenQ marketeer convincing me the 7700 is better with a neat shiny word like "Senseye...oooooh!".

I should have said/meant to say: "I'm guessing the MT700 could surely be calibrated to produce the same picture, but maybe Senseye is a 'quicky' way to take care of it...and could be worth the money to lazy folks :D".

I'm still learning here, but damned if I'd let any marketeer earn his "wings" on my account! :eek: (Especially since I'm in the AF and have wings, lol)

It seems I have stopped being amazed at the MT700's image, and have just reallly been enjoying films. Paraphrasing another poster, who mentioned that seeing the milky blacks in dark scene pulled him out of the viewing experience. I really agree, and now with the 700, it's just at a level where you forget the projector alltogether. At least for me after almost 100 hours It will be interesting to compare with the 7700 via HDMI

Art (presenter - BenQ 7700) stated that the Star Wars II opening scene showed the “usual” star field in the Cinema mode. When he switched to the Theater mode, the added stars magically (?) appeared. This implies that the “Sense-Eye” processing is only active in the Theater mode.

Here is the BenQ page that describes the “Sense-Eye” technology as used in their LCD computer monitors {http://benq.us/senseye/}. I’m a retired EE and I had a difficult time separating the real technical (minimal) info from the advertising hype (most of it).

Apparently, it separates the luminance signal and chrominance signal (presumably R, G, & B separately?) and processes (enhances) the contrast (luminance) and color corrections in separate circuits. It then sends the “corrected” info to the panel (the DMD for the PE7700).

There is nothing said about scaling or de-interlacing, so those functions have to be performed by other processing circuits. Presumably, those are also BenQ proprietary.

It sounds like BenQ is trying to perform the iris type functions of the Z3, AE700, H51 LCD projectors totally electronically (applause). As far as I’m concerned, the jury is still out as whether or not I want the PJ to make those decisions in the never ending search of better contrast. What other artifacts is the circuitry introducing? Is BenQ just trying to improve the performance of the HD2+ instead of using the more expensive DarkChip3? Unfortunately, I don’t know enough about these DMDs to hazard a guess.

My present reflection is that, the lower cost of the MT700, compared to the PE7700, will push me in that direction, along with the Faroudja processor. The upcoming test results of Art and Mike (I understand the learning curve process, take your time) should help.

emailists -- That will be interesting, but won't help me much, My only possible source is the DVI output of my STB. If it works out, I may have to invest in a DVI > HDMI adapter and a 30' HDMI cable (once I get my new PJ :D).

From the webpage CT_Wiebe posted:

How the Process of Senseye Image Enhancement Technology Works?

RGB signals are first transformed into YUV signals: YUV is a type of image signal which is closer to the image formed by the human eye. It displays richer and more complete colors.
It deconstructs YUV signals into brightness (Y) and color (UV).
The "Contrast Enhancement Engine" processes brightness (Y), while the "Color Management Engine" processes color (UV).
It combines the processed brightness (Y) and color (UV) as YUV signals.
Then the "Sharpness Enhancement Engine" processes the image's sharpness and fine-tunes the flaws.
Eventually, the YUV signals are transformed back to RGB signals for image output.

This is what you DO NOT want, transforming the RGB to YUV and back. It can introduce so many artifacts, the colormatrix from RGB is different from YUV etc. etc. Just think about your beautifull digital HDMI signal being transformed to analog and back again just for this senseye thing....
Thanks Ciebe I am ordering the Toshiba today.

WOW- yes going from YUV to RGB and Back is not desirable. In the video editing world that can wreak havok with images, particularly solid colors and fine gradations.

Kjelt -- that description was for LCD monitors ONLY. BenQ has to be doing something different for the PJ. However, I have to agree with your decision, except, I'm waiting untill some reviews come in. I can use my L300 for another month, or so, if I have to.

CT_Wiebe

I got a fairly innexpensive 35' DVI to HDMI cable from PCcables

Works great and no sparklies.

Thanks, I'll give them a look. What part #? I see 30' (01719, 01771) & 45' (01772).

Sorry guys, hate to break into a highly technical conversation about the BENQ, but I have a newbie question about projection images and the MT700. When I watch a scene when a transition occurs to all dark or black or the transition goes from all dark/black to a lighter scene, I sometimes notice something strange. The only way I can describe it is using a for instance. In the opening of the Fellowship of the Ring, just prior to the title appearing on the screen, I seem to notice something akin to a blotchy repainting in the dark areas (dithering???) . I also notice it in the darkened sky during the Nativity scene for the opening of Ben Hur. The only thing I can relate to it is pixelation that I've seen in computer files like quicktime.

It really doesn't bother me too much, but I am curious as to what the tech term for this is. I can only guess that it is a common occurrence with various PJs.

Any ideas???

Also, here are three screen shots (I am overjoyed to see these on the Big Screen):
CLICK HERE (http://www.icsfilm.net/screenshot1.html) :p

It sounds like BenQ is trying to perform the iris type functions of the Z3, AE700, H51 LCD projectors totally electronically (applause). As far as I’m concerned, the jury is still out as whether or not I want the PJ to make those decisions in the never ending search of better contrast. What other artifacts is the circuitry introducing? Is BenQ just trying to improve the performance of the HD2+ instead of using the more expensive DarkChip3?
On a philosophical level, I think that doing the "iris function" electronically instead of mechanically is a good idea. That should (ideally) give the projector the ability to deal better with intrascene contrast rather than just improving its ability to do on/off contrast well. Whether this function should be accomplished on the projector itself is really an individual question and depends on what other equipment and environment one is using, I would think. I don't have a problem with BenQ using it as a way to improve the performance of the HD2+ chip instead of going with the DarkChip3, since it allows them to offer a projector at a lower price point and thus make similar (although undoubtedly not the same) performance available where more people can afford it.


The upcoming test results of Art and Mike (I understand the learning curve process, take your time) should help.
I'm also looking forward to these test results. In addition, I do understand the learning curve, so I'll second the call to take your time.

So... are they done yet?

Okay.

How about now?

I mean... no pressure or anything.

Now?

Take your time... I'm just asking.

Now are they?

...

:D

I just talked to someone who really has a lot of experience with digital video and he assured me that the RGB -> YUV and back is nowadays all done digitally and you can hardly notice it.
So I might have been to quick in judgement of the BenQ technology. I'll wait for the testresults to come in.

Originally posted by Kjelt
Hi Mike,

can you please check if the MT700 is capable of displaying full screen 1:2.35 with anamorphic picture in the way that i posted a request a few pages back

thanks!

Kjelt.

Sorry, I forgot about your request. I'll check on this, but I think all you can do is zoom it so that the bars go away, but you lose some of each side of the picture. I don't believe there's any way it will stretch the picture vertically, as well as zooming.

Originally posted by Kjelt
I just talked to someone who really has a lot of experience with digital video and he assured me that the RGB -> YUV and back is nowadays all done digitally and you can hardly notice it.
So I might have been to quick in judgement of the BenQ technology. I'll wait for the testresults to come in.

Alright, then, let me point you to the following then, to see if I can change your mind:

Start here: http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/Guided_tour.pdf
Then here: http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/ColorFAQ.pdf
Then here: http://www.poynton.com/PDFs/GammaFAQ.pdf
Then (if your brain isn't hurting) here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4969789 (for an overview)
and finally here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=416292 for why we care.

The last is really the critical one, but you might need the background presented in the first few links to really appreciate what is being said. Pay particular attention to the posts by Don Munsil and Stacey Spears. The coup de grace will be spending some time in any of the FFDShow sharpening threads in the HTPC forum. What it sounds like BenQ is doing is a resize and sharpen, a la FFDShow filters, just in Silicon. The problem is that FFDShow comes in the signal chain before the conversion from YUV into RGB color space. A second conversion, depending upon bit depth, can introduce some serious artifacting with clean source material (can you say "edge enhancement"? ;) ).

Basically, I'll take a pass on Senseye.

Later,
Bill

Thanks Mike, appreciate that.


I just have confirmed from my dealer that the MT700 has the same black level issues with PAL here in Holland. Under 15 CRI there was only black. The remedy given by FlyingGimp on 03-21-05 10:09 PM switching NTSC mode to Japan also helped here when the source was PAL!
I sure hope there will be a firmware update to fix this.

Originally posted by Kjelt
I just have confirmed from my dealer that the MT700 has the same black level issues with PAL here in Holland. Under 15 CRI there was only black. The remedy given by FlyingGimp on 03-21-05 10:09 PM switching NTSC mode to Japan also helped here when the source was PAL!
I sure hope there will be a firmware update to fix this.

Both FG and I have reported the issue to Toshiba tech support, so we're waiting for a solution. I call them each week to see if there's anything new yet. If I ever find a way into the service menu, I'm sure it could be addressed there as well.

On a side note, could everyone wishing to discuss the merits of Senseye move it to the BenQ 7700 thread? It really has no place here other than to reference the difference between the MT700 and the 7700.

Guys, I just got my unit at work and briefly set it up....I think I am in heaven! The design is soooo clean, the remote is decent, albeit generic but extremely functional. The build seems to me outstanding, I already removed the lamp to confirm there is a healthy "shield" between the bulb chamber and color wheel ala Optoma, but larger and aluminum embossed.
This bodes real well for me as the lamp housing outgasses under temp so those vapors can't collect on the color wheel.

It is really quiet in my opinion....and a hefty unit coming form presentation form factors

I tried a RP56 dvd player in progressive no calibration, the depth looked amazing, I did switch the NTSC mode to Japan and it raised the black levels dramatically almost too much without a calibration I assume? This was set to 480p. Granted all this viewing was on a tan metal corrugated wall at my shop. I am a freak, I brought my dvd player and sample discs to work to play. :)

My production date is March 2005...A real crazy thing is there is a addendum in my manual for the Benq 7700.....I quess that would confirm it huh?

I absolutely can't wait for the all night tweaking session when I get home..

"It sounds like BenQ is trying to perform the iris type functions of the Z3, AE700, H51 LCD projectors totally electronically (applause). "

Personally, unless something can actually lower the black level, I wouldn't equate it to an iris.

I'd call Senseye an automatic gamma adjustment.

That addendum is in all of the manuals as far as I've seen.

Have fun this evening! ;)

Now where is that service menu?
It's going to be a little fun building a ceiling bracket, the screws are huge in comparison to my other 4 I have had. The 12lbs should not pose too much of an issue. The hole spacing seems that it will distribute the weight nicely.

Is there a factory bracket out there to steal some ideas off of?

A home depot run with a big cup of coffee is in order....

TJ

Originally posted by chazmo
The only way I can describe it is using a for instance. In the opening of the Fellowship of the Ring, just prior to the title appearing on the screen, I seem to notice something akin to a blotchy repainting in the dark areas (dithering???) . I also notice it in the darkened sky during the Nativity scene for the opening of Ben Hur. The only thing I can relate to it is pixelation that I've seen in computer files like quicktime.
CLICK HERE (http://www.icsfilm.net/screenshot1.html) :p

This could be either MPEG artifacts, temporal dithering, or posterization. What DVD player are you using? Some have MPEG macroblocking issues, which this might possibly be. When you pause the image do you still see the issue? If so it could MPEG artifact in the source or a macroblocking problem. From what I've read about macroblocking, splotchiness in dark areas seems descriptive of it.

If you only see it in movement then it could be temporal dithering. The mirrors in the DMD only move so fast. My undestanding is that in some cases the image gets dithered down to match what the DMD can actually represent. This can lead to posterization (sharp jumps in color change across what should be a smooth gradient). Some pjs apparently have this worse than other (H77 clay face). I've not been bothered by it.

As a side note I finally re-rented Spiderman 2 to watch the infamous Mary Jane poster with Peter dragging the bike scene. This was the one reported to have horrible clay face on the H77. I wasn't bothered by it at by any artifacts on the MT700. I watched the scene over and over and finally noticed a small bit of posterization on Mary Jane's forehead during a split second of the pan.

I was a bit terrified of the MT700 having some horrible artifact and so far (probably 60+ hours now in), I've not seen anything that bugs in normal viewing. I'm settling into that simply happy with what I'm watching, sinking into the movie mode.

Thank you for the reply FG. I have a Denon DVD 955 , which is similar to the 2910. I'll look up the macroblocking in the manual and on the web to see if that is the case. As far as only seeing it during movement, it occurred while on the black surrounding the gold letter titling for "Lord of the Rings" materializes on the screen.

Ok, question about this vertica offset thing. I am having a hard time understanding it.

Ok, so let's so that you have the MT700 sitting on floor upright on its feet and the unit is projecting an image to the wall. I have heard that the due to having zero offset, the center of the lense (which is just inches above the floor) will align with the top of the screen. Making the top of the screen just inches above the floor as well. Meaning the projected image isn't being displaed on the wall since the cone of the projected image is being shot down into the floor. Is this correct? Is this what zero offset is?

Or does zero offset mean that if the MT700 is in the same postion, will the center of the lense align with the bottom of the screen. Thus the cone of the projected image is being shot up above the floor and onto the rest of the wall?

Help???!!!

VincentV,
When CEILING mounted, the center of the lens will align to the top of the screen. In your example, it is TABLE mounted, so the lens will be aligned with the bottom of the screen.

That is what I thought. Most projectors are like that. I don't see what the big deal is then? If you're concerned about a lack of lens shift, then you would just need to do a better job of measuring when setting up. MT700 all the way!!!!

The issue for some people (myself included to some extent) is that it may require you to hang the projector too low when ceiling mounted. I have a 10' ceiling with the top of a 92' diagonal screen at about 6 feet. The projector is mounted on a rear wall so it's not a big problem, but if the room were deeper, it would have to hang down 4' from the ceiling. Not the most aesthetic mounting in the world. ;)

Guys a rep from TI told me that soon 720 P DLP will hit the 1999.00 MSRP very soon. I don't know how accurate that information is. He says the chips won't be hd2+ but some new chip. He wouldn't say when the 1080 P would be released. Sorry! :(

hey, guys. this is my first time posting... just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all their super-helpful information. i've been researching projectors on and off for a year now and finally settled on these hd2+ guys, went and looked at a z2000, and finally picked up the mt700 just now. i have it set up in a temporary capacity at my current apartment (i'm moving next week, so nothing permanent) just projecting onto a high-thread-count reasonably-matte white sheet, of all things, thumbtacked to the wall.

man, it looks great. super-bright, nice contrast, good blacks. i am really happy with it.

my only problem now is that i'm still pretty new to this (my last "display device" was a 27" floor model samsung crt television with nothing better than composite input!) so i fall into the camp that definitely *appreciates* a well-calibrated image but doesn't have the eye for it.

i see references to random things, like hdnet test patterns or whatever. is there a good repository for projector / display calibration tools and images, and maybe some howto somewhere? right now all i've done with the mt700 is tweak brightness and contrast, but no color temperature or white balance or whatever. and i'd love to just get a bunch of test data together and go nuts tweaking the thing until it's as good as possible. (frankly, it already looks pretty great to me, but i'm sure there's some tuning to be done.)

i poked around on the forums already for this kind of info consolidated somewhere and didn't really find it; apologies if this is better posted somewhere else!

Welcome Bsharp............

What you want is a DVD from either Avia or DVE (Digital Video Essentials). they have all the calibration screens and instructions you will need.

Type those names into Froogle, or PriceGrabber and you should be able to find some for sale.... or Jason here at AVS might even sell them .....

FiveMil, I wouldn't be surprised if the MT700 hit that price point soon. I just noticed it within 250 of that figure.

Right. The "twins" will be going for $2k by the fall at this rate.

Bsharp,

If you want to tweak white balance or color temperature you need a meter. Smart III is the most affordable, but it has no absolute white reference for the MT700 so it's a YMMV (and may not get you much closer to D65 than out of box). The OpticOne is the next most affordable and will get you to D65. It can be bought direct from the meter mfg for the best price.

On Avia vs DVE, Avia is much easier to use while DVE has better test patterns, particularly on blacker than black and audio.

As for now, make sure you switch color temp to medium and do the NTSC Mode: Japan tweak.

He's likely referring to the HD3 chip. Isn't it 720p DLP, but only half the horizontal resolution with wobulation to fill in the missing pixels. I believe they are doing this in RP sets now.

thanks for the pointers, guys. looking at the prices on those meters (or the opticone, anyway) i think i'll stick with getting a test DVD and then having someone from a local HT store come by and calibrate it for me in a month or two.

bsharp........

The test DVD's will give you a great start....

But for the full calibration, make sure you are dealing with someone with training and experience... not just Joe's son from Joe's friendly Home Theater Store.

There is a certification process called ISF that guarantee's a certain level of competence.... I believe there are some other certifications or trainings through CEDIA. There are also some extremely knowledgeable non-professionals that have spent the time and money on the right equipment and I am sure they could do a great job... if you could know who they are... AVS is a good place to start your search however............

Ok for me the search is over, I picked up my MT700 this afternoon (ISF calibrated). Now until my new 92" screen arrives I have to stick to my self made 64" screen , too bright!!! :cool:

On what settings do you guys have the Faroudja settings?

greetz Kjelt

bsharp -- Both AVIA and DVE have instruction for their use (AVIA being much easier to use). It's not worth having "someone from a local HT store" calibrate it for you. After all it's you eyes that have to be satisfied, and there's no gurantee that the local HT store guy has any better idea of what's right than you do.

Unless you pay for an ISF technician to do it for you, it's a waste. Unless you're very picky, the AVIA/DVE calibration that you do on your own will be very acceptable. Just be sure to explore all of the picture modes. One of them will look more natural ("looking through a window" effect). And remember, each picture mode needs it's own calibration.

I would suggest that you explore the picture modes first, then calibrate, and then go back and look at the picture modes again (just for verification of your initial guess). Redo as necessary. After you've watched movies, etc. for a while (more than 2 or 3 weeks) go back and recalibrate to see if your initial impressions were correct.

Kjelt -- First, make sure that you're not in the brightest lamp mode {should be either Standard or ECO (economy), I don't remember which it is}. Then search the picture modes, the default is the next to brightest. Use the one that is the most satisfying. You don't have control of tne Faroudja operation. The only time it's not working is with a 720p input.

Well guys, I spent the afternoon building a ceiling mount. It cost aprox 25-30 dollars.

I want to know what you guys think, If and when a factory mount arrives I may buy it, if it is reasonable....

Here it is:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/stayceejovi/PICT0666.jpg


The springs add tension as you tighten the bolts, it levels at all 4 corners smoothly and accurately due to the screw pitch.

There are little sealing washers at the projector, so as to not marr the finish.

This drop gives me a 9 1/2" screen starting height from the top of
8 foot ceilings....

Just thought you might get a kick out of it.


TJ

Very nice TJ. :)

It looks like you were able to find some 6 mm. threaded rod? What's the ceiling attachment?

Off to do my comparison of the 4805 and MT700 now. ;)

Originally posted by MikeSRC
Very nice TJ. :)

It looks like you were able to find some 6 mm. threaded rod? What's the ceiling attachment?

Off to do my comparison of the 4805 and MT700 now. ;)

Don't forget the H31 Too:D

Unfortunately the zero offset of the MT700 won't work for me.

I currently have a H30 that I might sell to a friend and put a H31 or 4805 in place of it. I most curious to the dvi performance between these 2 projectors regarding; dithering, optics (focus uniformity of pixels, etc.) and contrast when the 4805 playing field is leveled with an ND2 filter.

Also wondering how much different throw and offset the 4805 is from the H31 as I currently have mount/screen set up for the H30.

Sorry to mention this in the MT700 forum, hopefully not too OT.

Fleaman

MT700 mini review

i'm not an ISF certified tech or anything, but i'll try to give a 10,000 foot review of this projector.

My interest in this hobby started 1.5 yrs ago when i purchased an Infocus X1 pj for the new micro-theater, it provided my friends and family MUCH enjoyment. i graduated to HD a couple months ago, and spent way too much time on the
AE700U/8700/Z2000/... quest, then I read CES reviews of the new offering from Toshiba, the MT700.
i purchased the MT700 a couple weeks ago.

after A/B'ing the MT700 to the Infocus X1, i could really appreciate the increase in resolution, brightness, and zoom/image size (100 inches at 12 feet, not possible with X1 (at 12 feet only 84 dim inch screen). The other qualities of DLP contained in the X1 carried forward to the MT700. my wife said the the picture was BETTER than real life! if there is ambient room light, i turn the bulb on high, otherwise i leave it on 'eco'.

after watching my X1 after the MT700... i'm glad i have a buyer for it! I've seen other HD2+ boxes that cost 2x this that looked worse, and calibrated HS51(LCD) that looked like a washed out faded inkjet image compared to this.

i could tell the color wheel was faster, instead of the slight eye fatigue and infrequent rainbows i saw on the X1, i can watch the MT700 for hours w/no problems at all, just lusciously clear, crisp replication of the original.

i'm glad i got the farajoda processor as i plug camcorders, digital cams and other non-progressive/HD sources into this on occasion, my guess is that this is handled better than Benq 7700 w/o processor.

this thing is heavy and large compared to my X1, i had to purchase a PDR UPM50 as my X1 ceiling mount wouldn't handle the weight.

my source is 5 major networks OTA HD via DirecTivo, and D* HD lite (HDNet, DiscoveryHD, UHD) also via HD DirecTivo, running either at 720p or 1080i.

HDMI seemed to have great advantages in clarity, contrast, and color, over component input.
after calibration, black levels seemed beautiful, contrast amazing. the proclaimed '3D' aspects of DLP really resonated.

considering the price and 2 yr warranty, i am very pleased with this new projector. i'd have no hesitancy recommending it to anybody else (as long as they were ceiling or low-table mounting it (zero offset, just like the X1)).

before HD and MT700, we watched our theater about 1-2x per week, since HD, about 5 nights a week, since MT700, well, after 14 days, we have about 60 hours on it... enuf said. get one.

Mike,
Yes threaded rod fit perfectly, got it at Ace hardware? Don't know if that is national?

The basis or actual mount is from a commercial ceiling fixture I had at the shop.

It originally had a 1/2 tube that threaded in and dropped to the light about 3 ft!!

I found more threaded rod and cut it to 4.5 inches and tightened it it all the way to the base. The receiving part has an "eyeball" socket and self levels based on a flat surface that mates with the ceiling.

The rest is aluminum stock bolted/washered together...it feels robust...

It is easy as hell to hang, because you can hold on the cross member, slide it onto the rod and tighten the nut.

Because of the washers and distance it also swivels 180 to access the jack pack...

Thank you for the compliment.


TJ

Help! I’m seriously considering getting a 1280 x 720 projector. I've only had LCD PJs except for my first PJ which was a CRT. My current PJ is a Panny L300U (960 x 540). I don't know if I'm susceptable to RBE.

To find out, I went to the local Magnolia Audio/Video store and saw their Infocus 4805 and 7205 in separate HT rooms. Both were running the DiscoveryHD Theater program on Mir Cats. Both had excellent color and contrast compared to my Panasonic L300U. The 4805 had worse SDE compared to my L300, as expected. The SDE on the 7205 was much less and was virtually invisible from about 1.3x viewing distance (estimated) :D.

However, both of these projectors had motion blur (as the overall scene was panned to follow the running animals) so bad that I got a headache after only 10 minutes of viewing :mad:. I thought it might be the program material, so I mentioned the motion blur to the salesman (while watching the 7205) and asked if he could put in a DVD. He found a copy of “Cats & Dogs” and started playing that :cool:. It was much much better, but there was still obvious, headache inducing, motion blur (or is this really RBE?) when the camera panned over the scene (they had high-end equipment in the room, but I didn’t get the model #s, other than high end Martin Logan speakers).

The question is: how significant is motion blur on the MT700? Does anyone have any experience relative to the motion blur on the 7205? And how does it relate to the MT700? Or is what I’m seeing really RBE?

Those of you that already have (or have seen) the MT700, any motion blur (background blurring – totally out of focus - while panning) problems? I tried to focus on a backgound object as it moved, and it was out of focus, which leads me to say it's a motion blur artifact and not RBE. Of course, what I'm seeing may be actually recorded in the source material, which is why I'm asking these questions.

TIA!

PS tehotaone -- You did a great job on that mount!

Question for those that own the 700 and have used the XBox on it. Mike, I know you have so I'm hoping you'll chime in here.

Today I watched a movie and some stuff I recorded on DVR. The source was my SD sat receiver over s-video. Later I powered up the XBox. The PJ would not sync at 480p. The XBox splash screen worked but the point in game load were the signal is changed didn't work as it should. Normally, with Burnout 3 for example, I get a "dual image" on the loading screen until the PJ realizes the signal has changed and re-syncs. It was acting like it was stuck in interlaced mode and wouldn't recognize a progressive signal. I was getting two images, four images, and finally the projector reported no signal. I disabled 480p in the XBox setup and the game would work in interlaced. XBox was on component 1. I shut down the PJ, turned it off, and let it sit a while. When I turned it back on it later progressive worked. Anyone else seen anything similar? Possible firmware glitch?

As a follow-up question, should I be concerned that my XBox is being recognized at 525p instead of 480p? Up until this afternoon, my audio rack was blocking the right edge of the screen so I never really saw or paid attention to the signal report the bottom edge. When I had the sync issue mentioned above I noticed the 525p after "rebooting" my projector.

:confused: Thanks.

Once or twice I've had my MT700 not sync. This was always while cycling through resolutions on my HDTivo. Switching to another input and then back fixed it for me.

525p is normal, that's what I get:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/video_signals.htm

Originally posted by CT_Wiebe
The question is: how significant is motion blur on the MT700? Does anyone have any experience relative to the motion blur on the 7205? And how does it relate to the MT700? Or is what I’m seeing really RBE?

Panning artifacts are a problem inherent in all 1-chip DLP designs. Some are worse than others, but almost all 1 chippers have issues with panning of one degree or another. RBE should be different. Also, were the pictures very bright? You may be sensitive to the higher illumination from the If pair (they are both fairly bright, especially the 7205).

Later,
Bill

Thanks Bill. I was wondering about that. My first reaction, on seeing these units was: "Whoopie, I don't see RBE". Then I started to get a headache and saw the motion blur. I didn't realize that the very bright picture might be invloved, and I am susceptable to motion sickness under certain circumstances.

Actually, the room that the 4805 was in had less ambient light than the 7205 room. I guess, from what you've said, that the combination of way too much PJ brightness and the normal panning blur, is what's psychologically bothering me. I was also sitting fairly close to the screen, like I do at home. Since my reference is a L300U, my senses were just totally upset.

It looks like I'll need an ND2 filter on the MT700, if I decide to get it :D.

Claus,

at this moment I have the MT700 connected through Y-C (svideo) since I am waiting for the Marantz 7600. I have seen one movie yesterday (Master and Commander) and my previous projector was an 1024*768 LCD from year 2000.

My thoughts:

-Yes I can see RBE but only when there are small very high contrast white objects in the picture (for instance white control lamps on a dark dashboard, or subtitles which have very high whites.) What I see is really RGB small flashes and since I know they are DLP related and not a technical malfunction they do not disturb me that they pull me out of the picture.

-However in the movie yesterday whenever there was a human face in the screen and they moved their head and there was a panning of the camera I saw disturbing motion artifacts occuring (not MPEG related and my lcd tv doesn't show them). The pictures i took do not show them (so my camera is too slow or whatever), if i press freeze frame it is also perfectly even so this is what i think a perception issue which is between my ears. I hope these go away whenever I have my larger screen (less light) and greater viewing distance but they really disturb me and pull me out of the picture.
When I saw "Dinosaur" which is computer rendered i saw no motion artifacts at least they were not so obvious. So I am not sure if this has to do with the source material being succeptive to this motion blur or that I am a human and am trained of looking and interpreting differences in human faces so that this shows up very easily (compare it to that the most difficult thing to draw is a human face since everyone is so familiair with it, and sees the tinies mistakes)

I love the beauty of the picture of this projector besides these points, and it is such a big step from my previous projector.

Concerning the faroudja question from me some posts back, if you go to menu -> advanced -> there is a submenu called -> Faroudja and you have two options 1)TrueLife which can be altered from 0 to 10 and Noise reduction also from 0 to 10. Since both were on 0 and putting the truelife on 2 was for me a clearly better picture on Master and Commander I was just wondering what other people had put it on?

Last thing, in contrast of other postings on this thread, on my unit there is light leaking from the output fan exhaust port on the front. This is however directed to the right and floor (projector in normal position with its feet on table) so it does not go on the screen. Since I am planning on ceiling mounting I might put a black cloth on some distance in front of it... i am not sure if it is necessary.

Oh yeah, this puppy is indeed quiet :)
Another thing i own over 30 remote controls and the toshiba is in my opinion the most beautifull i ever saw.


- disclaimer -
above are my personal thoughts, comments, i respect anyone elses comment esp. when they differ, i always say that the fact that I love raspberry icecream doesn't mean you have to love it too ;)

Well, I have one dead pixel near the center of the screen. I guess in DLP terminology, you all call them dead pixels. Anyway, it's always there and was actually pointed out by someone else. I never noticed it and it doesn't bother me. I have to really look hard during lighter scenes or stand very close to the screen to see it. I don't know if Toshiba has a "zero tolerance" policy with dead pixels, but so long as the problem doesn't propagate, I will live with it for now.

Originally posted by chazmo
Well, I have one dead pixel near the center of the screen. I don't know if Toshiba has a "zero tolerance" policy with dead pixels, ....

Damn that's a shame, unfortunately in my manual (it does not say that in the pdf file so it may vary for different countries) on page 21 (English) :

"
Note:
.......
.......
The DMDTM is made using extremely advanced technology, but there may be black spots (pixels that do not light) or bright spots (pixels that are constantly lit) on the panel. Please note that these are not malfunctions. "


I think that it depends on your country and dealer if you can get a replacement for this, but clearly Toshiba doesn't see it as a malfunction. I think that a dead pixel is better to live with then a bright spot.

FG:

Very informative article. Thanks! Everything appears to be working properly then. If the sync issue happens again I'll report it to Toshiba.

Originally posted by chazmo
I don't know if Toshiba has a "zero tolerance" policy with dead pixels, but so long as the problem doesn't propagate, I will live with it for now.

Unfortunately, they don't. Kjelt's quote appears in the U.S. manual as well. You might try putting it on a TV channel where there's nothing but static (so the mirrors are constantly changing between on and off) and leaving it there for an hour or two. This can sometimes "unstick" the mirror.

The panning issue is one inherent in most single chip DLPs. There have been some units where this can be almost eliminated by adjusting the color wheel speed or through a firmware change (as I recall). Until someone finds a way into the service menu, we'll have to live with it. Personally, it happens so rarely that I never notice it, but if you are susceptible to it, it can be a problem.

I did my evaluation of the 4805 and MT700 with a 480i input over component yesterday and I'm planning on hooking up the H31 and all three via DVI today.

Preliminary results indicate that the 4805 and MT700 are just about equal in brightness. The MT700's color balance is dead on after calibration, where the 4805's green leans a little to the yellow side (really only noticeable in tests). Secondary colors are excellent with both.

FYI, increasing the RGB gamma levels from 66 to 70, at least on my unit, brings the overall gamma down from about 2.7 to the 2.3-2.5 range where it should be. More to follow.

Thank you for the info Mike - keep it coming. My HT thanks you :)

Quick question: Is there any news on when a MT700 & PE7700 comparison might be done?

I'm selfishly looking for reinforcement that I ordered the best PJ for my buck ;)

I don't know when I'll be able to get a 7700 yet. I'm checking with the distributor on Monday. I was hoping to hook up with Art (presenter), since he only lives a mile from me, but he's in Maui right now. It seems from his review that the only difference between the two, performance-wise, is BenQ's Senseye enhancement. I'll reserve judgment on that for now, but I have yet to see any "enhancement" circuitry that didn't add some other artifacts.

Kjelt - if you post what scene on Master and Commander you saw the panning artifact, I'll rent it and see if I see it on my setup. At the very least this will tell us whether it's inherent to the pj, or involves individual units and/or source (since I like to think my htpc is as far away from an s-video connected DVD player as possible :D ).

If you have Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring the initial Sauron's army pan and Isildur running invisible through the bushes show a little of something like this for me. Both of these happen so briefly that I was only bugged during hyper-critical A/Bing.

Mike................

We should have asked to drop the 7700 off at your place while he was surfing..........!!

Yep, I must hold off my purchase till that happens. I am still suprised you say the 4805 is as bright, since is is rated much lower. They sure don't do that projector justice with the Costco demo. I messed with it yesterday, thinking it might hold me over till 1080 projectors or darkchip 3's come down.

Originally posted by wnielsenbb
Yep, I must hold off my purchase till that happens. I am still suprised you say the 4805 is as bright, since is is rated much lower. They sure don't do that projector justice with the Costco demo. I messed with it yesterday, thinking it might hold me over till 1080 projectors or darkchip 3's come down. Costco is about the worst place to go to see what the 4805 is capable of. Think about it. You are in the middle of a brightly lit warehouse. How could you possibly tell anything about a projected image in that kind of an environment. Even the most expensive PJ producing the best image possible would look like crap under those circumstances.

Projector lumen ratings mean very little since each manufacturer measures it differently. In the case of the 4805, it's rated at 750 ANSI lumens, which likely equates to the 1000 (non-ANSI) rating of the MT700. After calibration, the lumen output is even lower.

I watched the Masters yesterday from my cable box w/ HDMI w/no problems and the picture was great.

Today I can't get the HDMI to work. The screen is totally black. If I tune to a HD channel it shows up as 720p while if I change to a SD channel the display shows up as 525p so it is detecting some sort of signal. Also if there is no signal the screen is white while I am getting a black screen.

This is tough to troubleshoot b/c I don't have another DVI/HDMI source.

Any guesses if the problem is the PJ, the cable, or my Motorola cable box?

btw - I am watching on componant and the golfer's faces are much darker w/ less detail than I remember yesterday.

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
If you have Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring the initial Sauron's army pan and Isildur running invisible through the bushes

Since it is bedtime here i couldn't watch the entire M&C again (it is not that good a movie anyway so don't rent it unless you really really wanna see it)
to see which scenes it shows up, but it is surely also on LotRings you mentioned. I just saw the first 10 minutes (the extended Pal edition so it is 4% faster then your NTSC version so the timing i mention might differ from your disc) and it also has it, though in my opinion not as bad since the scenes are quite dark. It troubles me more if it happens in a bright scene with a face like in M&C now and then. Anyway these are the things I had a problem with in LotR (only first 10 minutes):

1.20: Scene with short pan on heads of dwarf kings the second dwarf king looks like 4-bit video (awfull!!!!!) Ofcourse that the dwarf resembles the elephant man is the special effects and not the projector :D

2.23 The army panning scene you mentioned i guess, obvious same effect but since it is a dark scene it is not as disturbing to me, look at the smoke or fog on the mountain to see it.

3.22 Mordar slays the king, hmmm it is short so not as disturbing to me

4.38 Son of king wearing ring around neck, zoom in on head and bammm I am out of the picture again due to this (how you call it? DLP-dithering?)

The invisible through the forest, yes but short so it is so so

7.26 1st panning across the map a little bit but disappears very soon.

So that is just the first 10 minutes. Ok i hope this gets less disturbing to me as soon as i have a bigger screen with less light and greater distance.

Paul : if it worked yesterday and it doesn't work today did you try to power on your HDMI source prior to powering up the projector or vice versa? Just a thought cause i believe the manual says something about powering on the source before the projector.
BTW: if component looks darker then I bet you didn't put NTSC mode to Japan as it was mentioned earlier in this thread?

Originally posted by MikeSRC
I did my evaluation of the 4805 and MT700 with a 480i input over component yesterday and I'm planning on hooking up the H31 and all three via DVI today.

.

Super cool!!

:cool: :cool: :cool:

Fleaman

Thanks Kjelt, My HDMI is back working. I had earlier tried to fix it my turning the PJ off to no avail. This time I turned off the PJ and the source and it eventually came back. I had to switch inputs a couple of times and change the channel b/c it had a broken picture in vertical panes like someone else mentioned.

I did not do the NTSC Japan fix b/c when I goto that screen the Japan mode is visible and you cannot change it. So I assume I am in Japan mode???? Is this true?

Tiger just had the greatest chip in in history so I lost my train of thought!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by PaulKahlon
Tiger just had the greatest chip in in history so I lost my train of thought!!!!!!!!

I was watching that too. Unbelieveable. Too bad he bogeyed the next two holes.

The NTSC Japan setting is only needed for the component inputs. With HDMI, it's already on that setting as you noticed.

Originally posted by PaulKahlon
I did not do the NTSC Japan fix b/c when I goto that screen the Japan mode is visible and you cannot change it. So I assume I am in Japan mode???? Is this true?

Unless there's been a FW rev, you're in NTSC Mode: USA if you haven't actively changed it. NTSC Mode: Japan is always greyed and displayed for a 720p (and 1080i too, I assume) signal. You must change NTSC Mode to Japan while feeding it a 480p signal (or maybe 480i as well). This is the only time NTSC Mode is selectable. The setting definitely sticks for 720p once it's changed in 480p.

Mike is right that you only need this when going through component.

On your HDMI issue, I've definitely seen the MT700 be picking on what it syncs to over HDMI (at least with my HTPC). Whenever I had something funky happened switching off the HTPC and then changing the input to something else and back to HDMI on the MT700 fixed it and it synced. It's good to avoid "rebooting" the pj, since every strike puts wear on the bulb.

just to chime in here, i had the exact same signal sync problem the other day with the mt700 playing an xbox game in 480p over component... it keeps wanting to think it's 480i, gets fussy, switches between that and "no signal" and when it did finally sync, after i switched back and forth a few times (i think i even finally power-cycled the projector, grudgingly, since i could not get it to sync any other way) it still seemed unsure, like, the little blue box would pop up at the bottom right every so often just to reiterate the video mode, like it was periodically almost-losing-sync-but-resyncing-instantly or something. weird.

Just wondering out loud here, since all is speculation until someone gets the MT700/7700 head-to-head comparison testing done, but common belief is that both units are manufactured by Benq. The MT700 has Faroudja DCDi technology whereas the 7700 has Senseye, which nobody really has a good grasp of yet.
That being said, if Benq is the manufacturer of both products that are for the most part 'twins' then wouldn't they want to stick their own brand name on the superior unit?
Do I don't have either one yet, still trying to decide as are many others.

Banjo

Actually BenQ likely had to agree to this sort of differentiation to win the Toshiba OEM contract. The big CE like Toshiba brands likely dwarf the sales of BenQ. I remember reading that the low street price of the 8700 along with lack of differentiation cost BenQ another mfg's OEM contract (can't remember which).

Until I saw the post in the 7700 thread on poor deinterlacing I was wondering whether the 770 might have a FLI23xx as well, just without the DCDi brand label (my Panny RP-56 didn't say DCDi on the box, but had DCDi internally).

Dear FlyingGimp,

SInce you have MT700, can you check its de-interlacing?

I posted a mini-review of PE7700 over at PE7700 official link that I fed PE7700 480i of Super Speedway DVD, which was filmed in 24F.

From the beginning, I can tell that PE7700 does not have reversed 3-2 pull down, I tried both compoenent inputs, the same result.

The easiest part to tell the 3-2 artifacts is in Ch. 7 of that DVD, when the race car races by a stadium with many seats. If the de-interlacing does not have reversed 3-2 pull down, the stadium seats area, with the camera moving and panning, will show unwanted wavy lines.

Can you verify that MT700 handle this scene O.K.?

Anyone who wants to have a DVD to check 3-2 pull down, go buy this DVD, it is a classic -- both in car racing and detecting 3-2 artifacts! :D

The MT700 uses the Faroudja 2300 series (probably 2310) chip and has no problem with the Super Speedway or any other tests. It also does well with the Faroudja test disk, a few WHQL patterns and some others on Avia Pro.

Has anyone taken any actual measurements of the MT700

I'd really like to see what it does for contrast, brightness and greyscale tracking. I've seen some for the Sharp 2000, but have yet to see any for the Benq or Toshiba.

Well Mike.........

I guess we have seen one difference between the Toshiba and the BenQ.

The question might be though... how often is this going to be important? Are most people feeding there projectors 480i?

I know with my 8700+ I tried feeding it LOTR from my panasonic DVD player (with unadvertised Faroudja inside) both 480i and 480p... the 480p was "WAY" better with Faroudja doing the de-interlacing duties.

Might this be an issue with HDTV 1080i material???

Comments.... ideas??

It might be because the MT700 uses the Faroudja chip, and the 7700 doesn't? Am I missing something here, because the result seems to indicate an obvious deduction.

Originally posted by gobrigavitch
Has anyone taken any actual measurements of the MT700
I'd really like to see what it does for contrast, brightness and greyscale tracking. I've seen some for the Sharp 2000, but have yet to see any for the Benq or Toshiba.

My unit was ISF calibrated , i attached the three pictures i received in the report, hope that helps. The contrast after calibration was almost 2000, he could have get it as high as 2200 but (i didn't understand the complete story so this is my interpretation) as he said it would round of a bit of the greyscales. I am fond of blacklevel so he left it at that.
He was very please with the colortracking (see below). I am very happy with the overall picturequality :)

2nd picture

3rd and last

and the primaries.

Thanks for the graphs, Kjelt. The greyscale tracking looks very similar to the one I posted a few pages back, so it looks like they're pretty consistant from unit to unit. I've been very impressed with the secondary colors being right on as well. I should have a chart of that available later today

Originally posted by Banjo29

That being said, if Benq is the manufacturer of both products that are for the most part 'twins' then wouldn't they want to stick their own brand name on the superior unit?
Do I don't have either one yet, still trying to decide as are many others.

Banjo
Don't know about these 2 products, but that isn't necessarily true. Whirlpool and Sears are a good example of where the OEM (Kenmore) is usually better when comparing nearly identical products. As FG mentioned, the contract is often far more lucrative than the extra name recognition. You can get that somewhere else, just ask BASF.

I posted a while back and nobody responded:

Has anyone analyzed the zoom range of the lens for CA or other lens-specific issues? (CA=Chromatic Aberration) I would really rather have a DLP with 720p native, but I'd also rather have 92" diag with a 17' throw. The Tosh can't do that, I would simply have it at/near maximum distance from the screen. (is that max zoom or min zoom?)

I just bought this projector and love it. I do have a few issues I was wondering if anyone else had. The focus seems not so sharp. I have dialed in the focus ring and the text is very chrisp but it seems like all the HD material is a little soft compared to my 4805 that this replaced. Also during last weeks lost...when the screen went very dark the shadow detail was gone and I had this cartoonish coloring. It happened many times in that program and in the other ones I have watched. I have the ntsc mode set to japan. Id this the black chrush you refer to? Or is this dithering? I called toshiba and they suggested I get a replacement unit. Will get it today.

Can someone that had their unit ISF'd post their settings....all the usual ones and then the advance settings with gamma and all. Thanks

Originally posted by Spiky
Has anyone analyzed the zoom range of the lens for CA or other lens-specific issues? (CA=Chromatic Aberration)

Typically, you want to have the smallest picture size for a given distance, which would be minimum zoom. For the MT700, that translates to about 12' for a 92" screen. Anyway, I haven't compared the min/max zoomed pictures yet as I have it in a temp setup using some zoom. When I get it mounted this weekend, it will be at maximum distance for my screen.

Originally posted by srb165
Id this the black chrush you refer to? Or is this dithering? I called toshiba and they suggested I get a replacement unit. Will get it today.

Can someone that had their unit ISF'd post their settings....all the usual ones and then the advance settings with gamma and all. Thanks

Your problem seems completely different from the black crush or dithering issues. The cartoonish coloring would not be releated to either. With the NTSC mode set to "Japan", you shouldn't notice any crushing of blacks. Are you using the component inputs for HD material? I guess it doesn't matter if you're getting a replacement unit.

The advanced settings can be different for each unit and the ones like brightness and contrast would vary with each installation depending on room lighting conditions. In any event, I can post mine when I'm done with the calibration/evaluation, but it may not work well for yours.