originally posted by srb165

I just bought this projector and love it. I do have a few issues I was wondering if anyone else had. The focus seems not so sharp. I have dialed in the focus ring and the text is very chrisp but it seems like all the HD material is a little soft compared to my 4805 that this replaced.

I'm not sure it is the focus. On mine the menu looks sharp, but not the picture. What input are you using? The unit I have seems to have reduced bandwith through boths component inputs. When feeding 480, i or p, it is showing only 300 vertical and 375 horizontal lines of resolution. It also does not fully resolve the 6.75 test pattern on Avia. This is below the DVD maximum - let alone HD. Several other posts have commented that component seems soft looking.

I have't tested HDMI.

Pip

Originally posted by MikeSRC

The advanced settings can be different for each unit and the ones like brightness and contrast would vary with each installation depending on room lighting conditions. In any event, I can post mine when I'm done with the calibration/evaluation, but it may not work well for yours.


Yes mike I understand some settings will be different but just wanted a ballpark. I will have a completely dark room with a ND2 filter.

I have gotten a new unit so hopefully this will work.

I have not used the HDMI so all my testing is with 1080i coming out of a SA hd8000 hd pvr on component. I am going to try to set the defualt output to 720p to see if that eliminates some of the softness.

Has anyone used a DA-Lite high power 2.8 on this projo? I have BO cloth presently but whant a more punchier picture.

It should look better at 720p. I know mine does. You get a sharper pixel-mapped image.

None of the settings are very far off from the default when calibrated. It's pretty close right out of the box.

I've tried the ND2 filter and will probably use it when I finally mount the unit this weekend, but for comparison's sake with the 4805 and H31 right now, I'm not using it.

You might consider a Vutec Silverstar if you want a punchier, more plasma-like image. I'm just using a matte white right now.

Hey guys,
I think this may be the projector I want. Sure, it will involve completely rearranging my viewing room but that's something I'm willing to do. My only concern is this: I am guessing that there are relatively few of these units out in the wild but in this thread I've seen several posts about synching problems, one post about a stuck "pixel", low res/fuzzy images off of the component and probably a couple of things I'm not remembering.
Since I'm seeing all of these problems coming out of a pretty small group of owners it makes me afraid that the production quality isn't very high. Is this a reasonable fear or am I missing something? I really want this PJ but I really don't want to deal with any defects. (the dead "pixel" is especially frightening since I've had a DLP since 1999 and always assumed that that effect was limited to LCDs only, but all of those problems are things I don't want to deal with)

Any opinions welcome

I have the projector, it would seem at least 2 of the proposed issues you quote could very well be source related, ie: the gentleman says his menu is sharp, but picture is soft....that would indicate a source problem and not an optic one. I found my component feed in both 480p and 480i to be nice and sharp, but the HDMI blows it away and seems to hit the sweet spot with this pj as far as all picture quality elements are concerned.

Dead pixels are very rare in DLP, but it is manufactured. It is suffocating to think of the manufacturing process to make these little mirrors operate the way they do. If I owned a Mt700 that had a bad pixel, I also think it would have syncing issues and random shutdowns as well ;)

I am very happy with this pj and can't imagine a better unit for the price. A couple of things I would like to see are:

An overscan control, because my Comcast HD box has a crappy line on some feeds HD while in the 1:1 mode.

Support for 480i over HDMI for testing...

It has mis-synced a few times to a HDMI input, but it was resolved by going to component 1 and then back...no big deal, but it would be nice to not have it happen at all...

These are brand new, I am sure there will be firmware updates for these that will address some of the issues.

I read through the HS51 and Ae700 threads and consider myself lucky so far... :)


TJ

A

Thanks for the input tehotaone
, that does make me feel somewhat better. And, yeah, just the fact that there's a gigantic AE700 tweak thread scared me off of it. I mean, the ability to tweak is good but the necessity to tweak... not so good.

I dont think my problem is source related because I had a infocus 4805 and had no problems with a fuzzy picture over componet and that is only 480p this projo has much better resolution

Mike, I can't wait for your comparision of the cheap projectors to the MT700 The zero offset is a concern for me. I am thinking maybe getting an Optima H31 would save me enough money to pay for a 2.35 Anamorphic lens and a really good dvd player. Since all I care about is watching DVD's I think this might make a nice setup compared to the MT700 and black bars. Unless, of course, if the MT700 is much better then I could make it work.
Warren.

I am thinking maybe getting an Optima H31 would save me enough money to pay for a 2.35 Anamorphic lens and a really good dvd player. Since all I care about is watching DVD's I think this might make a nice setup compared to the MT700 and black bars.

That's a good point. I'd say for DVDs, especially through component, you won't notice much difference with the MT700, except for the lack of screen door.

I'm planning to work on the DVI/HDMI inputs of each this evening, where I expect the MT700 to really shine with a 720p signal (based on earlier viewings). Thia is taking 'way more time than I thought it would. :(

If you've read MikeSRC's repeated comments -- the MT700 does not give a super good picture at 1080i over the HDMI input use the 720p source setting!.

The reason is that, apparently, the internal scaler converts the 1080i to 540p and then back to 720p. This double conversion results in loss of picture detail.

Repeat after me: Use 720p input to the HDMI input for the best picture quality.

Mike,
The dvd comment about 480p with the Mt700 is valid, however I setup the HTPC last night pixel mapped thru rgbhv, because the hdmi is in the HDTV box.

I was stunned, period. I used to think ahhh, all this FFdshow stuff , zoomplayer blah blah blah. I never saw a huge difference in PQ with my previous units. I now can say the added rez of the MT700 lends itself amazingly well to the Mt700 at 1280 X 720 60hz.

The resize, sharpen , denoise 3d filters become so aparent with this PJ.

I can get so close to Snell + Wilcox Upconverted stuff now it is scary. I was going to buy a s97 player for this PJ but now I realize, there is no way I can get the features and PQ out of a stand-alone player for less than probably a 1000.00, I have not even connected the PC HDMI yet.

I did not have to create custom resolutions as Flying Gimp did, but the 720 mapped test worked, I just added the second monitor @ 1280 X 720 60hz and boom. Contrary to some postings and conversations with Leckian, I even see the boot and post screens on RGBHV input, I don't believe that is the case for the hdmi input?

I have a semi-horse of a machine(3ghz@ 3.8 6600gt OCed and a gig of DDR ) I run 2x resize, with HQ settings, denoise 3d, sharpen, deblocking.

So, if you only watch dvds thru consumer/entry level enthusiast players, the 4805/31 will be amazing, hell they are amaing anyways.

But if you have at least a 3ghz machine with a recent Nvidia card, you are leaving amazing PQ on the table not having the added rez to resolve that
kind of setup, but then again it is no longer simply 480p after processing.

FlyingGimp may say the same?
************************************************************


On a side note I do notice a little EE on the very top and bottom of the picture during two anamorphic films I watched last night? I wonder if that is in the master or something in the chain is causing it? I did a/b vs my trusty ol RP56 and actually is is on that as well. I use no filter in setup, and sharpness is turned all the way down?

I also constructed a custom holder for a 58mm ND2 filter that fits perfectly in the lens opening. I have mixed feelings on the ND2, yes it makes the blacks nicer, but I lose subtle detail on HD I have grown to love the past 3 days :)
It also pulls the brightness back but that is Ok to me it's a light cannon @ 110"

It is a Tiffen filter which supposedly are "ok" I picked it up for 10 dollars( who cares at that price?) just to see if the Nd2 thing is for me. I quess I need to shell out the money for a HMC to be sure?

here are a few pics:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/stayceejovi/PICT0672.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/stayceejovi/PICT0674.jpg


It turned out the holder it came in, is the proper diameter to "press fit" in the opening, a little flat black paint, a dremel and Viola!

I used the smaller lens to block any extra light like a mask(ahh I am lying, it is all they had :) ), and the image falls perfectly with this setup. Sorry about the e-tape around the holder :) I just dont want to get any scuffs on my beauty, it is not by design :)




TJ

originally posted by tehotaone

ie: the gentleman says his menu is sharp, but picture is soft....that would indicate a source problem and not an optic one. I found my component feed in both 480p and 480i to be nice and sharp, but the HDMI blows it away and seems to hit the sweet spot with this pj as far as all picture quality elements are concerned.


My problem is definitely not a source problem. The source shows much more resolution on other displays. It is also not an optics problem, as the projector menus are razor sharp. Have you tested your component input with resolution patterns? I would be very interested in the result.

The lack of resolution I am seeing is related either to the component inputs, or to scaling. I suspect it might be scaling because with a 1080i DVD source through the same input, resolution is higher. One would really need an HD test generator to confirm this.

That being said, this is an excellent projector, and a tremendous value! No projector is perfect, and from the posts so far, it seems that this one needs 720P through HDMI to do it's best.

Pip

I would say that I was blown away by the htpc PQ when I started using it on my 4805. I still get this great PQ via HTPC with the MT700, but with added resolution. There is noticeably less aliasing on the MT700. To my eyes, at 2.0x I would stick with the 4805 and live with a little aliasing, saving $1500. At 1.5x the MT700 blows the 4805 away.

Just for kicks I do need to try the RGBHV input. It certainly would make my cabling simpler (now I'm manually plugging in extension cables from two sources, to an LCD monitor and the MT700). I know that some HS51 folks swear their PQ is improved using the RGBHV/VGA connection over the DVI/HDMI input.

tehotane - I'm interested in hearing what ffdshow settings you're using. I'll post mine as well when I'm at my htpc.

Originally posted by wnielsenbb
Mike, I can't wait for your comparision of the cheap projectors to the MT700 The zero offset is a concern for me. I am thinking maybe getting an Optima H31 would save me enough money to pay for a 2.35 Anamorphic lens and a really good dvd player. Since all I care about is watching DVD's I think this might make a nice setup compared to the MT700 and black bars. Unless, of course, if the MT700 is much better then I could make it work.
Warren.

Both these projectors are native widescreen, why would you want an anamorphic lens? Those lenses are meant to pull the extra 30% (or so) more resolution available from a anamorphic dvd playing on a native 4:3 projector.

But these days there are enough low priced native widescreen projectors available that the 4:3 + anamorphic lens deals just aren't that cost effective anymore.

Back in the 'days', the early widescreen projectors were a pretty penny.

Fleaman

Originally posted by MikeSRC
That's a good point. I'd say for DVDs, especially through component, you won't notice much difference with the MT700, except for the lack of screen door.

I'm planning to work on the DVI/HDMI inputs of each this evening, where I expect the MT700 to really shine with a 720p signal (based on earlier viewings). Thia is taking 'way more time than I thought it would. :(

Hey Mike,

Don't forget to try the H31 upconverted through DVI @ 720p and 1080i as others in the H31 forum noticed a pretty big jump in pic quality over 480p through DVI.

No one seems to know why this is, as mathematically it just doesn't add up for this 845x480 projector. From what little I've read in the 4805 forum, most seem get the best quality @ 480. Maybe this is just some strange Optoma quirk....
(also, this was only from dvd players dvi's, not htcp's which seem to be less effective working with the H31).

Fleaman

16:9 is right between 4:3 and 2.35:1. The same lens that takes 4:3 to 16:9 brings 16:9 to 2.35, which is what almost all my DVD's are. A 2.35 movie playing on a 16:9 screen wastes 25% of the pixels on black bars. The lens uses all the pixels squished down to the space the image would be in anyway, thus increasing brightness and reducing vertical SDE. Width would be the same of course.
Of course if you want to watch TV this is bad. Me I want to watch DVD's only
Warren.

Originally posted by wnielsenbb
16:9 is right between 4:3 and 2.35:1. The same lens that takes 4:3 to 16:9 brings 16:9 to 2.35, which is what almost all my DVD's are. A 2.35 movie playing on a 16:9 screen wastes 25% of the pixels on black bars. The lens uses all the pixels squished down to the space the image would be in anyway, thus increasing brightness and reducing vertical SDE. Width would be the same of course.
Of course if you want to watch TV this is bad. Me I want to watch DVD's only
Warren.

I didn't realize the difference between 16:9 and 2.35 was 25%! I thought it was less and not worth the gain from the cost of an anamorphic lens.

Then again, anamorphic lenses can have their own issues too, especially the cheaper ones.

Fleaman

If purchased through Overstock.com will the Mt700 warranty be legit?

For the MT700 1280 pixels wide / 2.35 ratio = ~545 vertical pixels. This is a waste of 175 pixels, bringing it closer to the 480 vertical resolution of the Optima H31.
The price difference between the Optima H31 and the MT700 would pay for a nice lens and a really nice DVD player, but maybe that isn't worth it. Kind of waiting for Mike's review for that anwser. I might be better off with black bars and a MT700.
Warren.

Not worth saving 5 dollars, how can a model in short supply be overstocked?

I can't recommend a dealer based on this site, but you should go "surfing" :) or at least go to the "beach" :)

TJ

Please don't post dealer links.

Thanks,
Kyser

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
Just for kicks I do need to try the RGBHV input. It certainly would make my cabling simpler (now I'm manually plugging in extension cables from two sources, to an LCD monitor and the MT700). I know that some HS51 folks swear their PQ is improved using the RGBHV/VGA connection over the DVI/HDMI input.

I've tried the RGB inputs and found them to be the same as the Comp 1 input. Same issue with the NTSC USA setting and no difference in PQ.

I'm off to do a little more investigating.. I'll also have to check the resolution that Pip mentioned.

Originally posted by wnielsenbb
For the MT700 1280 pixels wide / 2.35 ratio = ~545 vertical pixels. This is a waste of 175 pixels, bringing it closer to the 480 vertical resolution of the Optima H31.
The price difference between the Optima H31 and the MT700 would pay for a nice lens and a really nice DVD player, but maybe that isn't worth it. Kind of waiting for Mike's review for that anwser. I might be better off with black bars and a MT700.
Warren.

I knew the H7x (H76/H77/H79) had the stretch mode, but I didn't realize they put it into the H31 as well. Cool! Unfortunately, my new H77 won't fit my panamorph lens, so if you want a good deal... ;)

Later,
Bill

MikeSRC - Did you try the RGB input using component or RGBHV from a vga port?

Hi Mike,
I'm a happy H31 owner. However, I'm a bit curious as to why the 700 is being compared to the H31 and the 4805. The price isn't even close to the other 2 pjs, and the resolution is not the same either. Just wondering.

OTOH, it would seem that it speaks well of the H31 and the 4805 to be compared to a 720p native dlp, when they are a fraction of the cost.

I think the 4805 and H31 compares are coming in just because those are what us po' folk's forum residents are familiar with. I personally am coming from a 4805, which is why I refer to it a lot.

Just came back from resellerratings. I didn't realize Overstock was rated so (horribly) low. I've ordered books and dvds from them in the past with no problems. Somehow I don't think I'd go for a big electronics purchase from them with that rating. Now I don't feel quite so bad for paying my first week premium to make sure I got the MT700 :D .

jedi35,

I think Mike is making the comparison with the MT700 to see if there are any noticeable differences at 2x screen width distance. Meaning, if all 3 look very similar @ 2x screen widths, then at what distance does the MT700 start to have an advantage? 1.5 widths? And at what price is that worth to someone?

Also, the MT700 has zero offset, which makes set-ups difficult for many. Mike might be able to offer a 4805 or H31 in that case if the pic quality is the same and everyone sits 2x back.

But I'm just guessing here.

I'm sure Mike will offer a better explanation.

Otherwise I'll soon be starring in "Being MikeSRC", a New Line Cinemas release.

Fleaman

Mike (or anyone) is there any way that the color wheel speed can be determined? At 4x, a RGBRGB wheel rotational speed would be 7200 RPM and at 5x it would be 9000 RPM.

NOTE: This assumes that an RGB wheel at 1x = 60 RPS = 3600 RPM, and an RGBRGB wheel at 60 RPS = 3600 RPM, but is called a 2x wheel. Incidentally, for 50 Hz power lines (PAL land), a 5x wheel would only be rotating at 6250 RPM.

Wow...I figured out all the problems I had with my unit...lack of focus and softness on component inputs. It turned out that the "test" componet cables I had running back to the projector were the problem. I brought my HD box to the back of my temporary room to test some things and the picture was stunning! I also hooked up my bravo D1 with hdmi and the picture quality on 720p was insane. I would have sworn the movie was in HD. I have seen some nice projectors like sim2, digital projection, and higher end CE brands and this is every bit as nice for a fraction of the cost. The only thing I noticed is that when I went to calibrate with avia the half black half white screen with the black bars for contrast it is completely black. I have it set on japan for ntsc mode. Has anyone seen the moving black bars? I could see them with my 4805 with the same dvd player so it is definitely the projector. I have only messed with the "normal" settings on the projo...none of the advanced gamma ones or gains.
thanks

So I've finally said goodbye to the old LP350!

I'm so fricken excited for my MT700 to arrive! So now I have a question. And I'm betting this has been asked and answered many times in this forum, but: Is there a software AVIA equivalent? i.e. I connect my PC's DVI to the HDMI on the PJ and run some program that generates test patterns similar to what the AVIA DVD contains?
Thanks for any pointers!

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
MikeSRC - Did you try the RGB input using component or RGBHV from a vga port?

Component. Sorry, I should have mentioned that in my original post.

Originally posted by jedi35
Hi Mike,
I'm a happy H31 owner. However, I'm a bit curious as to why the 700 is being compared to the H31 and the 4805. The price isn't even close to the other 2 pjs, and the resolution is not the same either. Just wondering.


Mainly because I had a 4805 in use and I recently received an H31 for review purposes. :)

Also, it would be a step-up projector from those and so I thought people would want to know whether it was worth making that step.

I'm supposed to get a 7210 for review at the end of the month, so that will be a step in the other direction. :D

P.S. - Almost done with the comparison, just have a couple more things to check on the H31.

Originally posted by srb165
Wow...I figured out all the problems I had with my unit...lack of focus and softness on component inputs. It turned out that the "test" componet cables I had running back to the projector were the problem.

Ahh, that makes sense. I checked mine last night and had no problem with the resolution patterns. I usually don't bother with them because the DVD player's normally the limiting factor.

The only thing I noticed is that when I went to calibrate with avia the half black half white screen with the black bars for contrast it is completely black. I have it set on japan for ntsc mode. Has anyone seen the moving black bars? I could see them with my 4805 with the same dvd player so it is definitely the projector. I have only messed with the "normal" settings on the projo...none of the advanced gamma ones or gains.
thanks

This is on component, right? With the NTSC setting on USA, I couldn't see the bars either, even with full range adjustment of the brightness. They should appear on "Japan" though. Are you on the "Standard" setting, or one of the "Theater" settings? Also, if your DVD player has a brightness control, check it as well.

Regarding my question about generating test patterns from a PC, I guess I've answered it myslef, somewhat, with a little help from Google.
In case anyone's interested, here's what I found out:

1) You've got to be careful since PCs and video don't agree on the extents of light and dark. Seems like everyone but me already knew this. I think it's that PC video goes from 0 to 255 in brightness and video goes from 16 to 235.

2) I found a very useful page that has links to various monitor testing programs. I can't guarantee any of them as I haven't had a chance to try them yet. Your mileage may vary. Since I can't post URLs yet (haven't yet had 5 posts) I'll try to figure out some tricky way of including it
www dot benchmarkhq dot ru slash english dot html question mark slash be underscore monitor dot html

wow, that's pretty annoying isn't it?

Originally posted by MikeSRC

This is on component, right? With the NTSC setting on USA, I couldn't see the bars either, even with full range adjustment of the brightness. They should appear on "Japan" though. Are you on the "Standard" setting, or one of the "Theater" settings? Also, if your DVD player has a brightness control, check it as well.

Yes it is with component but also using my Bravo D1 into hdmi I could not see the black bars. I have it on the standard lamp setting and it lists japan as the ntsc mode. I have also done full brightness and could not see them. I am using the theater mode 1 . I dont think it is my dvd player becuase it passed the blacker than black to my infocus 4805

I've had no problems with HDMI, using a Bravo D2. I can see all three bars with that connection, only two with component. Does the D1 have brightness/contrast adjustments? My D2 does and they can make a big difference once they're off the center setting. Try the "Standard" setting rather than the "Theater" setting.

FlyingGimp, have you tried Battlefield Vietnam on the projector (was that you on Hueyland)?
Bill, why won't the lens work on the 77? That is a longer throw projector than average. What did you have it on before? I wonder if it would work on the MT700 (or maybe the Optima H31 )
Warren.

Warren - the H77's lens is set back somewhat from the front of the case, and I have been told by folks I believe that it will not work. The H31 does not have this set-back (neither does the MT700, that I can see), so it should work fine (it's been a while since I owned the H30, and the H31 chassis looks nearly identical).

Curt - you've got the measurement correct. A 5x NTSC wheel is spinning 9,000 rpm, but a 4x wheel is only 7,200 rpm. Asa result, the color wheel is a major source of noise for many projectors.

Later,
Bill

Srb165 - Did you definitely change NTSC Mode to Japan while in 480p mode. Passively leaving it alone won't help - In 720p it always shows up as grayed out and set to NTSC Mode: Japan even if it is really using NTSC Mode: USA (the bug is that they are auto-changing the UI on switch to 720p, but are not updating the actual video processing settings used.)

Senor_Curtains - the best substitute for Avia on an HTPC is Avia (or Digital Video Essentials). Resolution patterns obviously won't go to 720p, but contrast/brightness/etc. can be set just fine. Just use a good PC DVD player and run through the Avia test patterns. ZoomPlayer with the Nvidia Codecs is good (I use this combo) and others have had good results with TheaterTek.

You can setup your PC to use either Computer (0-255) or Video/Studio RGB (16-235), assuming you can wade through all the threads on the topic. I've read a bit but haven't had time to really dig into this.

wnielsenbb - That was me. Believe it or not I'm actually decent at BF:V. I just don't know how to fly a helicopter. I haven't played on the pj yet (using a Dell 2005FPW instead), since I'm afraid I'll burn the bulb out in a few months, particularly once BF2 comes out.

Bill (Ursa) --- I was asking if anyone has actually measured the wheel speed or determined it from a reliable factory source. And my name is Claus:D, not Curt. Thanks for the reply, anyway.

Dumb question. Is this 4X, 5X, or both?

Lenny

My guess is 4x for NTSC and 5x for PAL with a limiting refresh rate of 250 Hz (a la the old HT1000/HT1100). However, I do not believe anyone has a confirmation of that.

Curt - My bad!

I now bought a 2nd hand Denon 2800-II and connected it through component.
It had a progressive lock on PAL and a region lock on region2.
So I couldn't play USA NTSC discs at first. When playing PAL discs the MT700 would NOT accept the signal from the component out. (Since it had a progressive lock I assume it was PAL 576 interlaced (not able to verify though)

Today I downloaded and run a region and progressive unlock firmware from the internet. Unfortunately since this is not a supported firmware it now turns out that I am unable to switch the component out at interlaced (only progressive).
The 480p from USA NTSC discs and 576p from Europe PAL discs ARE supported by the MT700, they work just fine. Since the deinterlacer in the Denon is an old Sil503 it shows jagged edges *yuk*

I am unable to verify if the MT700 handles interlaced over component. Before buying yet another dvd player with interlaced component I really want to make sure that the MT700 can handle interlaced at component(since it went wrong with the Denon at first).

So my question to MikeSRC or FlyingGimp or anyone else owning a MT700, can you confirm (the projector shows the source type when the input is selected) NTSC 480 interlaced over component works?
How about PAL 576 interlaced over component? If yes, which dvd player do you have?

Thanks for the trouble!

NTSC 525 interlaced works fine from my XBox over component. I don't have a PAL player or any PAL DVDs to try 576i.

Anyone tried 48Hz?

Can anyone comment on picture quality differences between a Bravo D2 and HTPC when connected to the MT700 via DVI/HDMI?

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
NTSC 525 interlaced works fine from my XBox over component. I don't have a PAL player or any PAL DVDs to try 576i. I thought the Xbox only outputs 480P, 720P or 1080i.

A few further observations:

A friend came over last nght that hadn't seen the projection setup since I had the Z2. His jaw dropped - he thought the projection quality had improved 30% over the Z2. I can attest to the fact that the resolution and sharpness were the same side by side on the units- so the improvement really is contrast- dynamic range, black levels and color reproduction.

We also put a strip of white gatorboard over my grey goo system screen so he could see what the MT700 looked like with a white screen. It took quite a bit of demoing, and pausing on specific shots to show the clear benefit of the gray screen. On many shots (faces escpecially) the white screen really had better color fidelity and more pop to it- and even looked a bit sharper. To the untrained eye it would look better on first glance.

Only in certain shots was it obvious that the foundation of the image was much better with the gray screen, both in dark and light shots. In mid tones, the gray screen gave those mid tones with some black in them much more differentiation. Hopefully someday there will be a screen that combines the best of both!

After he left I watched the 2nd half of Apocalypse Now. The tremendous number of smoke and fog scenes were handled beautifully, and reminded me just how much SDE I had to put up with on the Z2. Those scenes would have looked quite bad on that projector. I did notice a tiny amount of SDE on the MT700 - but quite was livable.

I'm still waiting to get Time Warner to upgrade us to digital cable and to HD.
My friend was also amazed how the 700 cleaned up ratty old analog cable- and he loved the picture in/out picture.

As a side note - years ago I sold him my Sony XBR 400 32" set so I could buy a projector (the Dell 3200) The set recently broke, and Sony repair gave up after trying to fix a burned out Dboard 3 times- then Sony gave him half off a brand new XBR 34" HD set which he gets tomorrow- I can't wait to see some HD on that tube!!!!

xbox can do 480i over component.

What is your screen width and seating distance emaillists?

70" wide screen at 10 feet viewing distance- using high bulb setting - so that is one reason why the grey screen looks so good - I am throwing a lot of light at it.

Ok yesterday I have been experimenting with htcp on the MT700.
THe htpc was connected to the RGB_HV BNC connectors of the projector.

I used powerstrip to do 1280x720 (720p) and it is recognized by the MT700 on 60 and 50 Hz (others i haven't tried yet).
When switching from 60 to 50 Hz without paying much attention (i didn't realize at that time what was happening) I could swear I heard a very faint upspinning noise in the projector. I then realized this could be the colorwheel going from 4speed to 5speed. It was NOT the fan, that I am sure of. It was a higher pitched sound. Again this is very faint but since I was having this projector in test setup, I was playing without sound and my ear was just 13 inches away from the exhaust.

I tried with powerstrip some interlaced modes like 480i and 576i but this resulted in a blue screen (from my projector, not windows :D ) so it can not handle these over the BNC either (at least not with my ATI Radeon 9700Pro. Or is there anyone who can tell me how to pull this off?
I can't prove it and might be wrong but i think more and more that the projector does not have deinterlacing at the HDMI and RGB-HV inputs, so it can only handle progressive at these.


I ran quite some movies, Dinosaur PAL DVD and Dinosaur 720p TS and I was stunned at the brilliant picturequality. I can't wait for my new screen to arrive. I also ran a 1080i ts which was converted to 720p by the Moonlight elecard software player. This was also stunning but there were quite some de-interlace artifacts from the sw which is quite irritating. This is why I would like to have the computer output 720i so that the projector can deinterlace. Anyone out there with the golden tip?

I have the projector almost a week, starting with svhs, going to component, going to RGB_HV, every time the projector shows that the source is the limitation. I can't wait to try it with a good HDMI and perfect 720 p source.

Oh yeah last but not least, I ran a computergame (hitman2) over the projector and i was stunned at the realism of the colors. I usually run this at an LCD monitor but now on an ISF calibrated projector I forgot to shoot the badguys, I was just looking around adoring the scenery :D
Again if I moved to quickly (panning) I can see the dithering artifacts, but it doesn't bother me that much as in a movie since I am busy as hell (staying alive).

Messing around with RGBHV from an HTPC. Very nice to not have to swap around cables. It will be awhile before I compare quality against HDMI since I have three crap VGA cables strung from the pj to the HTPC (going to buy a good cable).

Many of the timings I tried around 48hz do not 1:1 map on the MT700. I figured I'd post the one 1:1 I found before I lose it. Credit goes to Mikerine in a 7205 thread for this. From Powerstrip Advanced Timing:

1280,64,136,184
720,1,3,22
sync H+ V+

Shooting for (I think) 48/1.001. Now to look for judder.

Note that while 48Hz syncs, this is not proof that the MT700 has the judder improvements of the Infocus 4805/7205/7210.

Here's a more exact Powerstrip timing for a Nvidia 6800/MT700 combo:

H 35.676kHz 1280,88,136,160
V 47.952 Hz 720,2,3,19
Pixel Clock 59.365
Sync H+ V+

This maps 1:1 and I see no obvious problems on the Judder side of JudderTest. The green bars move smoothly across (I guess this is what it should look like but ???).

I see three bars moving around on the JudderTest buffer test, albeit all twelve positions are cycled through. I'm not sure if this is a problem since the buffer test is experimental.

awesome! so it does 48hz!
now let's try 72? :D (even the IF can't do it.) The IScan HD+ has a 72Hz test bar. It will be the smoothest.

Well, after a small delay in shipping my MT700 finally arrived! This is my first true foray into the world of HT (I'm stepping up from a 24" Sony Wega w/Klipsch Promedia Ultra 5.1's to the MT700 with an Ascend Acoustics setup), so consider me a newborn in this projector area, albeit one that reads too many of these forums.

I was originally going to buy a Sony KD-36XS955, but moved into a house that has a perfect basement room for me to turn into a home theater. So I went to projectors - I originally settled on the Panasonic AE700u but when I saw a 720p DLP within my reach (had to stretch a bit) I jumped ship - I care about contrast just enough to open the wallet a bit more. I looked at the BenQ PE7700 and (even the lcd Sony HS51) but their prices were too much, plus I think the Tosh will probably be the better PJ IMH(very H)O.

My basement HT isn't finished yet (just put a coat of primer on tonight) so I set up the PJ in the other half of the room where the speakers are temporarily hanging out. All I have to say is....

DAMN!

....very nice :) I expected no less after reading as I have on the forum, but I was still impressed even though I originally used an Apex DVD player w/s-video and later a Sony DVP-315 or something through component (pretty sure its only 480i). I was projecting around a 70" diagonal image onto a grimy white wall :p. The PJ seems very bright, but also has very good contrast; it kind of reminds me of a speaker that is articulate when it is loud or quiet (if that makes any sense). Colors seem fantastic and I love the menu system (with the test images...cool!)

I've been too busy getting the room ready so I don't have a screen even in the works yet, nor have I had time to calibrate. I messed with some settings and I think it looked better before I messed with it.:rolleyes:

I can see rainbows once in awhile under normal viewing, but I am getting used to it and it hasn't distracted me much from the movies. It's a flaw of the technology I am willing to accept and ignore, to a point. I viewed an older Mitsubishi X300 or something DLP awhile back and DAMN that one was bad with rainbow effects. The MT700 is light-years ahead & not intrusive to my viewing experience.

Also, this thing seemed very very bright on hi-lamp mode. My girlfriend watched shrek while I was painting 10 feet away using overhead lights and a 1000watt halogen work lamp. The movie was watchable...can you believe it? So awesome!

I am looking forward to tweaking the PJ and getting my setup really moving so I can fully enjoy my big investment. (took about half my dang HT budget). Next up is finishing painting the walls and figuring out what to do for a screen.

On that note does anyone know a good way to mount a painted MDF/some other board-type screen on drywall that has no wall studs (just concrete) behind it? :confused: Maybe PM so we don't get off topic too much. I'm going to stop by the DIY screen forum this weekend for some advice :)

Anyhow, this is just the perspective of a guy with his first projector. Probably nothing new here, but I thought I should share. To all the rest: thanks for all the helpful info and please keep it coming - I'll help out however I can, but I am definately appreciating everyone else's time and effort...

Congratulations on the PJ, jonny! I would really, really like to upgrade my X1 to this PJ, but I think my speakers need to be upgraded first (and I can upgrade the rest of the surrounds for the same price). Maybe some other day...

Anyway, a few things I'm interested in with any projector are noise levels, viewing projectors in ambient light, and of course, picture quality. Unfortunately, brand new front PJ owners typically think the PQ is awesome (as I did), so it's hard to use them as a baseline. However, you mentioned that it works well in ambient light (which I think new front PJ owner's usually complain more than those who are used to this), so that's good news.

So on to my main question.. what do you think of the ambient noise, coming from being used to essentially no noise (SDTV)? I found my X1 to be rather noisy, and understand this PJ to be much quieter, but I'm wondering what your opinion is (as you probably have very little first-hand bias). :)

As for your drywall on concrete problem... umm... how is the drywall attached to the concrete? That just doesn't seem right...

Hey Tim - obviously take my opinions with a huge grain of salt since I am a first time owner, as you said (reiterating for our reading audience).

As for the noise, I never even noticed it. The PJ is about a couple feet behind the couch at the moment, so seems like a good low noise level to me. Note that I haven't sat down to watch a full movie yet, so I will reserve final comments until I get things set up better and do a true eval. However, my initial (naive) assesment is that yes, it is nice and quiet. :)

I'll go down and recheck on the drywall thing - I know its odd, but my gf's dad who is a construction buff said that's how it was set up - I think there is one piece of that hard insulation behind the drywall, but that may be it. I could just plain be wrong because that happens a lot :) Anyhow, will go check - we can continue this over PM maybe since I don't want to hijack the thread.....
thanks

(update before going to PM: Magically I'm not wrong! It's drywall/insulation/concrete....)

Some more notes on 48Hz. The same timing that worked for RGBHV started to sync over HDMI, but then caused my PC to hard lock and lose signal. I assume this is some sort of DVI negotiation bug on the Nvidia 6800. I'd be very interested to hear from an ATI video card user to see if this thing will sync at 48Hz over HDMI.

Over RGBHV I'm using extension cables that cause ghosting on my CRT computer monitor. I see a little ghosting on the desktop when I get up close to the pj screen. Other than that RGBHV looks good from the HTPC, 1:1 mapping is working and the desktop looks crisp.

I watched the second half of Peacemaker (what can I say, I watch movies where things go boom). Despite the most incompetent terrorists ever, I found the picture to be smooth like butter. The PQ was at least as enjoyable as over HDMI and perhaps better. Horizontal pans looked good, though without A/Bing I don't know if this is psychosomatic.

I did watch the Sauron's army and Isildur running invisible pans over and over and did not see the slight oil painting effect I saw a couple weeks ago. I still need to A/B back to HDMI to check if this is still visible (with the current Bulb life, ND2 filter, and any effects of color wheel sync drift).

I will try 72Hz for kicks - anyone have an Iscan HD+ to lend me for "testing"?

Johnnyzero - congrats on the purchase. I was impressed with my PLV-Z1 (960x540 LCD probably with a real world on/off contrast of ~400:1), so I'd guess you're pretty happy with this as your first pj. You could try drywall anchors for mounting your screen. Home Depot has the metal screw variety rated at 40-50 lbs. You could do one of these every foot or two and it should be pretty solid. Another alternative would be to hook into the ceiling studs.

FlyingGimp-

Thanks for all the computer info. I'll eventually be hooking my PC up also, but it won't be for awhile for me (desk nightmare). I have an ATI Radeon 9500 Pro (ole beaut!) so in time I can add some comments.

Saying I'm happy with this as a first PJ is an understatement :) Even though I have the "first love" type attitude towards it, I'm still pretty particular and I won't hesitate to point out problems or things that can be improved if I notice them. That's because then I can convince myself to upgrade in a few years...haha! Thanks for the stud/drywall advice btw.

One thing I am not sure about is how I am going to connect everything. I think I'm going to get a Hi-Def DVR from Cox Cable soon, and it has HDMI. So do I use the HD-DVR on HDMI and an upconcerting DVD player over component? Or vice-versa? Which ever method I choose is important because it affects the dvd player choice. Hmmm...do I give the DVD player its chance to shine with HDMI, or do I keep HDMI open for the full glory of Hi-Def...choices choices....

Okay back downstairs for another coat of paint! (Dark blue...mmmmm)

Originally posted by miltimj
So on to my main question.. what do you think of the ambient noise, coming from being used to essentially no noise (SDTV)?

Well, every projector has some noise, but the MT700 is lower than many, especially in this price range. I would guess it's probably about 5 dB quieter than your X1. Measurements taken of the MT700, H31 and 4805, which I'll include in my comparison report (which should be posted tomorrow), showed the MT700 to be the quietest, with the H31 a couple of dBs louder and the 4805 about 3 dBs louder than that. These were just measurements with a sound level meter taken close to the projector and are not scientific by any means. I just thought they probably represented the different noise levels pretty well though.

I've been too busy getting the room ready so I don't have a screen even in the works yet, nor have I had time to calibrate. I messed with some settings and I think it looked better before I messed with it.

I wouldn't mess with the RGB gains and offsets (at least not without the proper test equipment) since they're not too far off to begin with and going the wrong way could make your greyscale worse. You can increase the RGB curve settings equally by about 4-5 notches to lower the gamma below 2.5. It's around 2.7 right out of the box. Color settings are good by default, so the big thing is brightness and contrast. Have fun!

Originally posted by jonnyozero3
One thing I am not sure about is how I am going to connect everything. I think I'm going to get a Hi-Def DVR from Cox Cable soon, and it has HDMI. So do I use the HD-DVR on HDMI and an upconcerting DVD player over component? Or vice-versa? Which ever method I choose is important because it affects the dvd player choice. Hmmm...do I give the DVD player its chance to shine with HDMI, or do I keep HDMI open for the full glory of Hi-Def...choices choices....


Well, you could get an HDMI switcher and use both. ;)

If I had to pick one though, it would be the true high-def source, the HD-DVR. Upconverted DVDs are great, but it's still not HD and HD looks best on the MT700 through the HDMI input.

Yippeee!!

Have ordered the MT-700 and should ship on Monday. Thanks again Mike.

jonnyozero3,
I have same question, use the HDMI for HD programming or for DVD? I would think since DVD is 480i/480p, that component is the likely choice. Would the cost of a HDMI switcher be worthwhile?

Have just completed painting the HT room and will size the screen once PJ is setup. Will be a DIY using Mmud. Jonny, if you are interested in a screen bigger than ~4X8 may I suggest using a HVLP sprayer directly on the drywall surface after masking the area.

Don't want to get off on a DIY screen discussion here, but I'll be interested to hear how it looks on an MMud screen, Jeff.

Mike,
Right.
Promised Mman I would post results on a new thread on the DIY screen forum.
Will let you know.
Anyone feel free to PM me for the mixture.

I think the only way to tell if the HDMI switcher is worth it is for you to compare component vs. HDMI with your source. If you can't tell a difference, then you don't have any worries. If you must choose without having a switcher I'd choose HDMI for the source you watch the most. If viewing HD and DVD similar amounts of time I'd go with HD over HDMI.

Another option is "DIY" switching: Put "HDMI male to HDMI male 28AWG" into froogle.com to find a store that sells all kinds of HDMI and DVI-D adapters. Just run a male->female from the pj and a male to male from each source. Then just plug the right two cables together to switch.

Flying Gimp: how long is your HDMI cable and is it a decent brand?
I can't connect the computer with ATI9700pro to the MT700 yet since I am waiting for an ordered DVI-D -> HDMI adapter. I do have a 33ft HDMI-HDMI cable from Oehlbach and it set me back US$375.- *auch* :(
Anyway I heard from a lot of people and posts that the cheap HDMI cables give sync problems over long lengths. I hope to get the adapter next friday.

BTW I envy you americans with your HDTV broadcasts, I saw my first HDTV stream this week (thanks for internet) and my jaw is still open. It looks as sharp as a fotograph. It really makes the MT700 shine and it is kinda hard to watch dvd's after that. I have to get a newer HTPC also since my P4-2.4Ghz is not fast enough dealing with some of the high bitrate scenes.

I'm using a no-name 20 ft DVI extension cable linked to a no name DVI->HDMI and a no-name 6ft HDMI cable. I even noticed last night when plugging in the RGBHV that the DVI plug was halfway out of the computer.

The nice thing about a digital signal is that you know if you're having problems. The nature of HDMI/DVI means that if you're reaching the transmission means you get either sparklies or no picture.

HDMI/DVI has no error correction, but since it's digital an error in transmission due to interference creates a random pixel. It's pretty obvious when you're watching TV and see pixels flashing purple, green, red, etc.

Some will tell you that a more expensive HDMI/DVI cable will give you a better picture. Of course people will sell you $10K speaker cables. You just have to decide.

If you're putting in a wall, investing in a good cable is smart. If not I'd just try an el-cheapo 30ft extension to see if it works. $375 seems like a lot. I tend to believe in bluejeanscables and they sell a 30 foot for ~$120.

Regarding HDMI cables and DVI switchers-

pcCables sells very reasonably priced cables and some 2 and 4
port DVI switchers for a great price. They have a great return policy too,

in case you have saprklies, etc on a long cable- I use their 30 ft DVI to HDMI CABLE with
no issues.

Flying Gimp, i already spent the bucks, better safe then sorry i sometimes say and I also think that on digital cables it is not as critical.

I tried your 48Hz settings yesterday and it worked (at least the MT700 synced on it) but I saw clearly some bitartifacts arising. I saw around a lot of mirrors this disturbing white crawling which was gone by switching back to 60Hz. It was between the mirrors and it didn;t look good. How did it look at your screen?
Also the horizontal panning testmovie from windvd6 did NOT look better on 48Hz (it kept hicking, i think that is the judder but I am not sure since this testclip was made for the windvd6 to show off it's tridimension dnm which lets the clip look great but my dvd look worse (in my case could be due to processor not fast enough).

Regarding DVI switchers, many of them are not HDCP complaint. While this may not matter to you now (depending on your particular devices), it likely will for future video sources. Otherwise, FG's suggestion of manually switching cables is a good way to keep costs down.

Okay quick clarification:

If I change a whole bunch of settings...contrast, rgb gain, whatever...they stay put while the PJ is on, but if I cycle back through the common settings (dynamic, theater 1, theater 2, etc) I lose the changes if I didn't save them to one of the User memory slots...correct?

I just want to make sure I can undo any changes I've done while fat-fingering around the menus. I've sped-read the manual and this seems to be my understanding....

Just to 2nd the opinion that everyone should change their NTSC settings to Japan. I had been watching cable w/ HDMI last week, and this week was really the first time I used the DVD through component and making this switch was a huge improvement.

Anyone have this projector or know of a local dealer with display in the Maryland area?

Measurements taken of the MT700, H31 and 4805, which I'll include in my comparison report (which should be posted tomorrow), showed the MT700 to be the quietest, with the H31 a couple of dBs louder and the 4805 about 3 dBs louder than that. These were just measurements with a sound level meter taken close to the projector and are not scientific by any means.


MikeSRC did you post your your comparison report?

Sorry, still working on it. Barring any unforseen problems, it should be posted tomorrow.

Good thing I'm not on a deadline or I'd have been fired by now. ;)

Cool thanks. I'm trying to get off of the H31/4805 fence i've been sitting on.

I figure another direct comparison or two can only help.

Originally posted by MikeSRC
Sorry, still working on it. Barring any unforseen problems, it should be posted tomorrow.

Good thing I'm not on a deadline or I'd have been fired by now. ;)

Cool:cool:

BTW, if you can mention which one (H31 or 4805) had more offset, that would be cool.

There seems to be no 'easy' or accurate H31 offset calculator out there.

Fleaman

Originally posted by fleaman


BTW, if you can mention which one (H31 or 4805) had more offset, that would be cool.

There seems to be no 'easy' or accurate H31 offset calculator out there.

Fleaman

Yeah, HiHoStevo had the same request. I'll see if I can confirm the 7.42 degree offset angle that's in the manual for the H31.

In case anyone really wants to try it with risk-free 30-day returns, that big mail-order MSRP place with a "C" has them listed.

Mike, are you posting the review here, or a seperate thread, or on your site?
Warren.

Wow - we're down to the 2nd page. All hope is lost. Save us Mike...Save us....

ps: finally tried a progressive player (Dvd-31) on the MT700. Wow. I need some alone time.

I want to see some screen shots! All this teasing with text chatter is driving me daisy.

There's a couple (three) in my signature below.

Keep in mind these are photos with the pj uncalibrated, on a dirty sort of white wall, and with me changing settings all the time to see what happens. Also the camera makes it look washed out when it isn't, and skews the colors from what I saw. Heh, sucks huh? The Donkey fought out through a camera flash though, must be pretty bright to do that.

I do like the "warning" photo..nice and black....

I will post more once my screen is built and such.

I'm eagerly awaiting your review.

I sent you a PM.

Originally posted by MikeSRC
Regarding DVI switchers, many of them are not HDCP complaint. While this may not matter to you now (depending on your particular devices), it likely will for future video sources. Otherwise, FG's suggestion of manually switching cables is a good way to keep costs down.

Mike- if the DVI switcher just routes the signal through unaltered (like they claim in the Outlaw Audio 990 HT pre/pro I just got on the waitlist for) then how will HDCP come into play? Wont the switcher just pass it through? Forgive my ignorance on the matter.

On another matter completely, I just ordered an Apple Cinema Display 30" for my home editing suite to replace dual 19" LCD's. I really toyed with the idea of forgoing the Cinema Display and getting
a SECOND MT700 to use as a computer monitor (and keep the dual 19's)

If it weren't for the relatively short bulb life- I would have gone that direction. The MT700 looks so great on the mac as a main desktop- Final Cut pro (my main application and source of income) looked fantastic that large. The Cinema Display has alot higher resolution - 2560X1600, but it would have been great having a projected image above the duals 19's.

Hopefully bulb life with advance along with resolution and brightness in front projection.

you got an image like that on a wall. Wow! More pictures you guys!

Originally posted by emailists
Mike- if the DVI switcher just routes the signal through unaltered (like they claim in the Outlaw Audio 990 HT pre/pro I just got on the waitlist for) then how will HDCP come into play? Wont the switcher just pass it through?

Some switchers will not pass the HDCP handshake through and the source will then recognize it as non-HDCP compliant, resulting in nothing but snow on the screen. A number of them specifically state that in their online ads. Others do not have sufficient bandwidth for HD. Knowing how good Outlaw is, I can't imagine their switching not being able to do HDCP pass through, but you might want to ask them that question.

BTW, the H31-4805-MT700 evaluation is now posted.

<BTW, the H31-4805-MT700 evaluation is now posted>

Mike,

Where is it?

<BTW, the H31-4805-MT700 evaluation is now posted>

Never mind - see it now.

Thanks!

I am seriously considering this projector as an upgrade to my 3 year old Panasonic LC-75U. I have been waiting for a 720P DLP that is comfortably within the parameters of this forum. Does anyone know if the the Chief RPA Universal is the correct mount for this unit. I currently have my 75U mounted with the Chief.

You should be able to use the Chief RPA with the MT700 if you can get the right mounting bracket from them. I don't see the MT700 listed on their site yet, but it might be available if you call them.

Mike,

Any word on a factory mount? My DIY is solid and very adjustable, if the unit was not so nicely designed, I would just keep it, but it is as handsome as it is a performer.

Please let us know if one becomes available, any word on a service menu?

What setting did you start with for your testing..Theater1, Theater2 etc?




Thanks for your review,although I would like to see true calibrated lumens/contrast for some perspective


I PMed Eckhart from Cine4Home to shed some light on the "2220:1" calibration recipe... no word yet however..I have a feeling this PJ is going to be a sleeper in the 720p arena. I love it, but I don't have much to do now because hardcore tweaks are not really necessary to get a great picture.

I will say my HTPC with Zoomplayer running a 1280x720 resize is amazing!

I run:
Sharpen: xsharpen strength= 27
Threshold= 31
Resize= Lanzcos parameter 6
Luma sharpen .80
Chroma= .75
Blur and NR
High quality checked
Time= 3
Chroma= 1
Luma =1.5
Thesse are from memory, but it makes my DVDs look damn close to upconverted stuff that comes from Comcast, and can make a grainy DVD look saturated and smooth.


Maybe someone can suggest better settings?


I also wonder if anyone has ever tried to compile a DVDO emulator? I mean the average HTPC should have the horsepower to do it. I also wonder if anyone has compared a HTPC properly setup with FFdshow, Nvidia codecs etc to a Iscan HD+?

I am just so addicted to getting the best out of this display, because I find it so true the source.... I am working backwards now trying to feed the best stuff into it, in the cleanest most appropriate way for it perform it's best.
Sometimes I just sit there in awe of it, when all is aligned with the world and the source is good.

Thanks,


TJ

Ok, so mine arrived yesterday and, wow, I am very very happy.

My first impressions, after using an XGA InFocus LP350 for the last 4-5 years:

This thing is bright! I think the Infocus claimed more ANSI lumens, but it's certainly not true. I haven't even tried high lamp mode yet and I'm already considering getting a filter.

HD looks GOOD. I was watching DiscoveryHD and Return Of The King HD last night and I was amazed by the crispness and amazingly beautiful contrast.

Now here are a couple of less than spectacular things I'm seeing. I'm hoping that someone might be able to tell me a setting to change that might remedy at least one of these

Standard-definition cable looks pretty bad. I have my PJ hooked up to a comcast HD DVR through HDMI. Right now I am having it always send a 720p signal and scale SD content to fit that, however I also tried having it send a 480p signal and letting the PJ scale it. Here are the problems I'm seeing, and I should mention that when I send a SD signal from my XBOX through SVideo, it looks freakin' awesome:

BAD temporal dithering. Maybe this is actually an artifact from Comcast's compression, I don't know, but it's pretty bad.
Highly visible mpeg-lookin' artifacts. I bet these were always there, but the LP350 smoothed out the image and they weren't visible. I have turned off all shrapening or edge enhancement I could find in the menu but maybe I missed something.
Anyway, these two things make watching non-HD cabel channels a painful experience.

I've only had one problem with HD content. When watching INHD to the Max, I was seeing choppiness during pans. It almost looks like the choppiness I've heard CRT users describe in cases where DLP users normally see blurring. But there's no blurring, it's crisp and beautiful, just "choppy". I didn't notice this when watching Lord Of The Rings, and I never noticed it with the LP350. Maybe it was just the particular show I was watching.


Anyway, after all is said and done, my girlfriend had a couple of outbursts throughout the evening
"God, the difference is night and day"
"It's so clear I can see their makeup" (referring to Orcs)
"This looks better than in the theater"
and finally,
"You want to hump it, don't you?" (referring to the projector holding my attention more than the girlfriend)

Next step is to hook up the HTPC and start messing with timings! Now that I can see/notice judder (you bastards!) I want to be rid of it.

Senor_Curtains;

What type of DVD player and connection are you using?

Not currently using a DVD player, but as soon as I hook it up I'll be playing DVDs off of my HTPC. So far all of my content has come off of the Comcast HD DVR or the XBOX. I've only had 2-3 hours to play with it so far :)
Normally I look forward to going to work but not today!

Originally posted by tehotaone
Mike,

Any word on a factory mount? My DIY is solid and very adjustable, if the unit was not so nicely designed, I would just keep it, but it is as handsome as it is a performer.

Please let us know if one becomes available, any word on a service menu?

What setting did you start with for your testing..Theater1, Theater2 etc?


Haven't heard anything on a factory mount yet. Using a DIY myself right now. Nothing about the service menu either. With every projector, I calibrate from all the default settings (ie: "Standard", "Normal" etc.). With the MT700, it's "Standard" for the picture settings and "Middle" for the color temp.

Senor Curtains,

If you are using the Comcast as a service, the standard def stuff coming out of that box is TERRIBLE, it is not the PJs fault, but the resolution shows off the crap that thing passes off as an output. I have a friend that works for Comcast, they are trying to go full digital very shortly to solve this issue. The real problem is you have such a capable display that with either blow you away with PQ on the right source, or show you just how bad a signal really is.

I too have seen the panning artifact, and it is the only downside I have found. It is source/material based and varies in intensity/viability.

I am hopeful that a firmware rev or service tweak could reduce this artifact. I read somewhere yesterday that people have loaded hybrid firmware to solve this issue with the 8700+ that the light engine is sourced from. We are so new with this, time will tell, it is annoying from a hyper critical perspective, but not a show stopper in my opinion.

TJ

No Marylandites in here?

I was able to view an MT800 today and found it compared favorably to my 4805 but, obviously, with double the resolution. How does the 700 compare to that one?

I just noticed that Crutchfield is a sponsor of this site...so here's the link:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-nDzaSZ00bSr/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?wm=fp&I=052MT700&g=160150

Wow. Thank god for Mike.

But you get a free 80" screen, a 399 value. ;)

cough... choke

Originally posted by Jack Gilvey
I was able to view an MT800 today and found it compared favorably to my 4805 but, obviously, with double the resolution. How does the 700 compare to that one?

Isn't the MT800 = Infocus 7205?

HOLY MSRP Batman!!!!!!

Seriously, just got off the phone with a service center I am friendly with here, they said there is zero info available for the Service Menu right now....My thoughts now would be to try a few menu procedures from other Toshiba products in hopes there is some congruency...maybe?




TJ

Yep, MT800 = 7205.

Originally posted by tehotaone
HOLY MSRP Batman!!!!!!

Seriously, just got off the phone with a service center I am friendly with here, they said there is zero info available for the Service Menu right now....My thoughts now would be to try a few menu procedures from other Toshiba products in hopes there is some congruency...maybe?

TJ

I have access to the Toshiba service site, so I've downloaded all the other service manuals available. None of the other projectors' service menu access works with the MT700. It may be a BenQ access method that works, but I've tried those too with no success. :(

So where is the comparison, I can't find it?

The comparison is currently about 5 from the bottom of the main under 3500 board. Since that won't mean much in about 10 minutes, I'll attempt a link:
Comparison (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=532141)


Also, just in case anyone is interested, projectorcentral has filled in the specs for the MT700...previously most of them were missing.

Originally posted by Senor_Curtains


I should mention that when I send a SD signal from my XBOX through SVideo, it looks freakin' awesome:

That is the DCDi doing it's thing. The Xbox is sending 480i over the S-video cable and the Faroudja is doing the deinterlacing. On the 4805 the DCDi only works when using 480i over component, HDMI/DVI only works with 480P/720p/1080i. Maybe the MT700 works the same way in this regard.

Try sending SD at 480i over component from your Comcast box.

Isn't the MT800 = Infocus 7205?
Ahh, not too surprizing then the family resemblance. :)

I'm looking at getting a new HD2+ PJ in the next few months. I'm also planning on doing a constant height setup using an anamorphic lense. Now I understand all one needs to do is use Letterbox zoom to stretch an anamorphic 2.35:1 DVD to compensate for the anamorphic lense. Now I know my Panny 300u has this for DVD resolution but not for HD resolutions. I'm wondering if the Toshiba has letterbox zoom and if so on what inputs and what resolutions is it available. Can it be used with HD? If not can it be used with 480p over HDMI? If not can it be used with 480p over component. I'd really like to know whether the Toshiba would work with this without using a scaler or HTPC.

Originally posted by gobrigavitch
Now I understand all one needs to do is use Letterbox zoom to stretch an anamorphic 2.35:1 DVD to compensate for the anamorphic lense.

For normal letterbox zoom, the PE7700 I saw has, so I would imagine the MT700 should have.

although I didn't quite get what u mean. sorry if I'm wrong, but I thought for anamorphic lens u need to do a "anamorphic squeeze" to fill a 2.35 material in a 16:9 frame, then the lens will either stretch it horizontally or compress it vertically. how will a letterbox zoom work in this case ?

gobrigavitch -- check the, preliminary, users manual, page 22. MikeSRC provided a link (this thread, post #340):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5422164#post5422164

It looks like all the adjustments are available in all input modes, but I may have missed the caveat.

c722 -- I believe that you use the anamorphic lens to do a vertical stretch to fill a 16:9 screen, and then use the zoom to do a horizontal stretch of the image to fill a 2.35:1 screen that is the same height as the 16:9 screen image.

gobrigavitch -- Do I have it right (or backwards)?

Originally posted by CT_Wiebe
I believe that you use the anamorphic lens to do a vertical stretch to fill a 16:9 screen, and then use the zoom to do a horizontal stretch of the image to fill a 2.35:1 screen that is the same height as the 16:9 screen image.


:confused: I thought an anamorphic lens does either vertical compress (Panamorph) or horizontal stretch (ISCO). For a constant height setup I would use the ISCO to do stretch. An extenal processor can fill a 2.35 material completely into a 16:9 panel (therefore "squeezed"), you just need the isco lens to stretch horizontally. I'm not sure if the PJ itself can do the 2.35->16:9 fill. Maybe it's the "Full" mode

You may be right. I'm not up on anamorphic lenses.

Originally posted by c722
:confused: I thought an anamorphic lens does either vertical compress (Panamorph) or horizontal stretch (ISCO). For a constant height setup I would use the ISCO to do stretch. An extenal processor can fill a 2.35 material completely into a 16:9 panel (therefore "squeezed"), you just need the isco lens to stretch horizontally. I'm not sure if the PJ itself can do the 2.35->16:9 fill. Maybe it's the "Full" mode

Hi i have the MT700 and the ISCO-II lens. When I use anamorphic source (so the dvd sends out the vertically stretched picture at 3:4) the full mode makes it a normal 16:9 picture. If (same conditions) I press zoom mode it gives me a bit of anamorphic picture which the isco converts to normal picture (at least so it seems).
Unfortunately I do not have the appropiate setup to test decently, i am still waiting for my new screen and i don't have a decent anamorphic material (for instance a circle). i can not guarantee that the zoom fills the 2.35 exactly it just zooms a little.. i have to test more before i can comment further.

hi Kjelt, can u do a quick test: put in a 2.35 anamorphic disc, like LOTR or Star Wars I/II. In zoom mode, do you get a 16:9 full screen image with no black bars and without left/right/top/bottom being cropped ? (before the isco of course ...)

I'm reading the manual. Looks like it is doing the right thing...

btw does the isco II work well on this short throw PJ ?

I'll try to explain letterbox zoom as there seems to be some confusion. with 16:9 output your dvd player stretches all 4:3 dvds to fill a 16:9 screen. With anamorphic DVD's everything on the dvd is stretched vertically so the horizontal stretch will put it all square. A letterbox 4:3 DVD is not made this way, and the stretch will make everyone look fat and dumpy with a black bar at the top and bottom of the screen. You then hit the letterbox zoom button in the projector and it stretches the picture vertically to fill the panel.

So if you put an anamorphic 2.35:1 DVD in the DVD player stretches it horizontally to fill the 16:9 screen and everything looks ok except there are black bars top and bottom just like a letterbox DVD that hadn't been zoomed. Now when you push the letterbox zoom button the screen is filled top to bottom as it would be with a letterbox DVD, but now everyone is tall and skinny. The anamorhpic lense then either vertically compresses everyone or stretches horizontally so everybody looks like normal again.

So that is how a letterbox zoom works with an anamorphic lense. The only problem has been that not all pj's have one (they should), and even the ones that do have them often don't have them available on all resolutions or inputs.

That's why I'm asking the people using this pj if its letterbox zoom is available on all inputs and on all resolutions?

okay I see what u mean. This letterbox zoom is definitely available in the Benq (I saw it), but I do not know if it works for all resolutions for all inputs.

Ok I will test this evening (now there is so much light in my room that i could not possibly see the black bars if there are any.

The ISCO-II I haven't been able to test properly because my setup is from my old long throw projector but I will try this evening if I can make some test. There was an article here on the forum stating that the ISCO-II was not a good combination with short-trow PJ's and that you should go for the ISCO-III :(
see:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php postid=5481203#post5481203

The projector also has a distance of about an inch from the lens to the housing, so there is gonna be some distance between the lens and the ISCO-lens which is also not very good.
More tonight.

On my MT700 aspect ratio choices (including letterbox zoom) were available at 480i &P, but not 720 or 1080 through component. Aspect ratio choices were available for all resolutions through HDMI. This is unusual, and a nice advantage.

However, on my unit the letterbox zoom did not function properly. It was geometrically wrong. It did not zoom vertcally nearly enough - leaving all figures too short. It had no way to properly display non-anamorphic letterboxed material.

I don't know if this was an anomoly only on my unit, or if it is a software error on all the early units. Perhaps someone else can test theirs.

Pip

I don't have any crazy 2.35:1 lenses or anything, and I don't quite understand when each type of zoom applies to different ratios (what the disc is, combined with how the player outputs it).

But, I have been using the different aspect ratio choices on my MT700 and they all seemed to be active over component 480i/p, 720p/1080i. I'm just using a cox HD/dvr at the moment, and I can go check again, but I think they all work for me. Also, I've been using the "full" setting as that seems to look right most of the time to me.

Toshiba has it spot on as far as inputs go in my opinion. They realize DVD players will be outputting 480 through component, but all resolutions through HDMI. So they have letterbox support accordingly. It seems many other manufacturers don't realize people are using upconverting DVD players yet. Let's just hope that your unit was an anomoly and the others have correct zoom.

So far only the Optoma H77, H79 and Sim2 have full support for aspect ratios in HD and can be used with an anamorphic lense. I'd like to spend less so I'm hoping this new Toshiba will have it figured out. According to WSR the Sharp doesn't support aspect ratio changes at HD resolutions.

Ok I did some testing, and took some pictures. Unfortunately you can only download 640x640 pictures here :(
Anyway I tested under svhs (all zoom modes available) and under VGA (RGBHV) through BNC inputs.
The source was digital video essentials PAL anamorphic testscreen which originally gives an egg in the picture (anamorphic circle).
The pictures I now sent are from the VGA input which was native(1280*720). You can see the different zoom modes in the picture but I will also name the file after it. If someone can host these pictures that might be better quality then the 640*640.

What was kinda amazing was that the zoom goes to less then 1:2.39 (see picture) I am not sure if that is correct to use for an anamorphic lens. If the difference should be the same as 1.33 to 1.78 (4:3 -> 16:9) which is a factor of 1.33 , I would think that it should zoom to (1.33*1.78) = 1 : 2.37 but it doesn't, So I think it might not work or is my math wrong? I tested also with LOTR and there were still significant black bars visible in zoom mode.

Concerning the ISCO-II lens with zoom it was hard to do it without proper setup I had my hands full holding the lens so I couldn't take a picture
But I did notice a terrible bend in the upper horizontal top of the picture. In two weeks my new screen will arive and I will be able to do better testing.

PS: just to be sure that everyone got the picture, the input was 1280*720 so the through mode was the same as the full mode, so the input picture was already stretched to 16:9 by the HTPC (circle was round).

theater wide mode

zoom mode

Hello folks,
I am very impressed how this thread has matured. I am having my basement finished in my new home this summer. I have an Onkyo TX NR 1000 and DV SP 1000 for video. I also plan to use a JVC HM 5U (D VHS) with over 80 DTHEATER titles and a HDTIVO. I will be sitting back 23-25 feet (back row). So far I am planning on getting this Tosh 700, the Hoya ND2 filter (for experimenting), and I will be using a motorized 110" matte white screen(16:9). From what I have heard from others, and read here, the Toshiba MT700 DLP gets the job done very well. Is there any owners of this PJ that regret purchasing it for any reason. I am planning on ceiling mounting it (not sure yet with what). I will be viewing a lot of HD and dvds. Probably 50/50. The Onkyo and JVC using HDMI should look excellent. My question to owners is, will it? I will be purchasing this unit within 30-45 days, unless someone knows of a dlp 720p coming out early in the summer that Will be superior... I appreciate anyone's insight they might have.

I haven't heard of any reason against it if you're fine with no offset, etc. However, if you're not actually going to be using it right away (ie waiting for the theater to be finished), I'd recommend waiting as prices will only go down...

Originally posted by Kjelt
actor of 1.33 , I would think that it should zoom to (1.33*1.78) = 1 : 2.37 but it doesn't, So I think it might not work or is my math wrong? I tested also with LOTR and there were still significant black bars visible in zoom mode.


U r correct abt the 2.37. Actually from the zoom picture I thought it did show something like 2.35-2.37 ? (the 2.39 line is visible and it's close to the edge) That looks quite right to me.

LOTR is wider than 2.37. How "significant" are the black bars ? Maybe can try Star Wars II. It's 2.35 strictly.

Abt the ISCO II, yes that's what I thought also. III is too $$$ :mad:

Originally posted by c722
[B] Actually from the zoom picture I thought it did show something like 2.35-2.37 ? (the 2.39 line is visible and it's close to the edge) That looks quite right to me.

Yes you are right I was distracted by the ratio below it, it states 1.66:1 So I thought well 2.37:1 should be between 2.39:1 and 1.66:1 (sounds logical). Anyway on closer examination I can see that the value above 2.39:1 is 2:1 so indeed 2.37:1 should be where it is, I just don't understand the 1.66:1 in the picture then but hey I am no video testpicture genius. Maybe one of the professionals in here can explain this, I would love to hear about it. So it seems to be OK, that's great.

The black bars in LOTR well they were still visible if I should guess aprox. together 5% of the picture so not significant. I will try to test with SW2 tonight (but I have a fever for two days now so I might turn in bed instead). What is of concern though is even if I used maximum zoom of the projector on the (full) 16:9 setting and took minimum zoom for the Zoom mode for the ISCO-2 I still needed to put the projector a few cm back. This means that I can not use a fixed projector setup which is kinda annoying since I want to ceiling mount it. I will test again tonight since the projector should have a 33% zoom which should be adequate for this purpose. An alternative would be not to use the full wideness of the screen in normal 16:9 mode, but I don't like that thought.

Originally posted by joerod
The Onkyo and JVC using HDMI should look excellent.

There seems to be some concern over the HDMI interface , not all DVD players seem to work ok with it. So I would strongly recommend testing al your equipment with it before purchasing it. Some more about this topic in the BENQ7700 thread.

Thanks Kjelt, I am actually still on the fence about getting the Tosh or the Sony Cineza 51. Has anyone else had a chance to compare these PJs. I know it is the war LCD vs DLP again, and again. My new Wife does see the RBE effect often on my Optoma SV65XF DLP RPTV, but I am not sure if that would transfer over to a PJ sitting 25 feet back. My main concern is PIC Q(also RBEs), so whatever one is better I will end up getting. Does anyone have any other PJs that I should be looking at as well?

Originally posted by Kjelt
I just don't understand the 1.66:1 in the picture then

oh for this one u r supposed to look at the left/right vertical line. That's the border of a 1.66 material. 1.66 is not very common though. I only remember some classic disney titles like Hercules.

Originally posted by Kjelt
I just don't understand the 1.66:1 in the picture then but hey I am no video testpicture genius.

I'm no professional but here's my guess. It's a 1.78:1 test pattern, 1.66:1 is narrower than 1.78, so the 1.66 is referring to the vertical lines to illustrate where the pillarboxes would be for 1.66:1 content.

joerod:

I’ve spent a lot of time with the HS51 and the MT700 in the same room. They are both excellent projectors. They both have drawbacks.

I have a 92x42 constant height screen. It is a High Power, but my projector is ceiling mounted more than four feet above my head, so I don’t get much of the extra gain. I have a normal living room with mid tone walls, mid tone carpet and a white ceiling.

I watch only DVDs – no HD, and all my comparisons have been done through component.

Before the HS51 I have always felt that DLP was far superior – mainly due to better contrast and a smoother and less noisy image. I now feel the 51 has caught up in these qualities.

Both of these projectors throw great images. If you are not sensitive to DLP issues, the biggest difference between the images is brightness. The Toshiba is much brighter. I tested it with an ND2 filter and it is still brighter.

The Sony is plenty bright enough for viewing in the dark on a screen 92” wide. It will be plenty bright enough for your 96” wide screen, as long as you watch in the dark. You will never see any screen door from your distance.

IMO contrast is essentially equal on both units – that is to say excellent! Colors – both excellent. The Toshiba seems to have a bit more pop to the image. I attribute this to the increased brightness as well as a much higher gamma than the Sony. But both projectors have excellent contrast, and I never get the sense of a haze over the image that I had from all previous LCD projectors.

Two areas where the image from the 700 is undoubtedly superior are gray scale and color uniformity. I am very picky about these qualities, and I wish Sony would do better. However, as picky as I am, if you do not watch a lot of black and white material (as I do) you will probably never notice these issues with the Sony.

The 700 does have the single chip DLP issues: rainbows (if you see them), dithering – both motion and near black. IMO rainbows are no worse on this machine than any other (given equal screen brightness) Motion dithering and near black dithering also seems to be no worse than any other 6 segment 5X DLP. If you have seen other 6 segment 5X DLPs and are not bothered by these issues, you should be fine with the Toshiba. IMO near black dithering is not visible from any reasonable seating distance.

In your case, with your wife sensitive to rainbows on a 65” RP, I think she may have a problem with the Toshiba.

Other than sensitivities to DLP characteristics, I have only two cautions for the Toshiba: One is the “zoom mode” issue, which I raised earlier. I hope someone else can report on this to see if it was an anomaly with my unit, or if it is a firmware mistake in all the units. This problem has nothing to do with anamorphic lenses. It needs to be tested to see if it can properly display non-anamorphic letterboxed material. My unit cannot.
The other caution is the HDCP handshake issue. Two of us have reported difficulty with some DVD players and the MT700 over HDMI. It is very early, and we need more reports to see if this is a problem or not.

Aside from these last (possible) issues, these are both excellent projectors. If you’re bothered by DLP issues – choose the Sony. Love DLP? - go for the Toshiba. If you must have lens shift, go for the Sony. If lights on viewing is important, you need the Toshiba.

The great news here is that we now have projectors which produce truly excellent 720P images for an MSRP of $3500. Just a few months ago, anything that could touch these images was at least twice that price. You can’t go wrong with either one.

I hope this helps.
Pip

Thanks Pip. That was a very thorough post and it helps a lot! I guess I have time to weigh it out and see what more owners post (HDMI difficulty). Do you think my Wife could see RBE effect 20-25 feet back on a 110" screen? If I have to I will go with the Sony (WR mag gave it a favorable review), but I do not plan on having the room totally dark at all times. So that may be a problem as well.

Here are links to the high-resolution images of Kjelt's screenshots showing various zooms:

VGA 4:3 (http://miltech.org/avs/VGA_4_3.jpg)
VGA Full (http://miltech.org/avs/VGA_FULL.jpg)
VGA Theater Widescreen (http://miltech.org/avs/VGA_THEATERWIDE.jpg)
VGA Zoom (http://miltech.org/avs/VGA_ZOOM.jpg)

Pip,

Thanks a lot for your comments, they have helped me greatly.

I do have a question for you. You said the PJ was 4 feet over your head, what did you do about the 0 offset on the MT700?

Kjelt's photos show the various AR modes with anamorphic geometry. I'm not sure if it's with or without a lens.

It would be helpful if someone would test with regular geometry. The Avia circle hatch pattern works well. In 4:3 mode it will show five round circles - one large in the center with four smaller in the corners. In the zoom mode, it should also show round circles, but larger and with the top and bottom of the pattern cropped. On my unit the circles are elipses in zoom mode.

Pip

PIP: all pictures are without the ISCO-lens!

Are the elipses you see taller in horizontal direction or in vertical direction?

1)The pictures I took are with 16:9 native htpc input, in zoom mode the PJ seems to just scale vertically and leave horizontally alone, so it makes vertical taller elipses from a circle.

2) I just quickly tested 1:1.33 testpicture from a dvd player on svhs and took pictures quickly by hand (terrible quality but it proves your point)
I will ask Tim if he again will be so kind to host them.
If i use 3:4 input source, in zoom mode the PJ scales both directions , BUT not equally, it makes horizontal taller elipses from a circle (about 15%). So my guess is the 2) is happening to you?

This brings up a interesting thing to investigate, why does the zoom work differently on different inputformats? It is obviously an intelligent zoom function at work here, now just understand how it works ;)

The elipses in zoom mode are wider than they are tall. The zoom mode correctly expands horizontally, but it does not expand enough vertically, leaving figures too short. This is through either component or HDMI for all resolutions.

Pip

Pip,

Thanks for the HS51 and MT700 comparison. Which projector has better black level? Which projector produces a less noisy image including panning scenes? What resolution was your source? I will be watching DVDs in the dark.

Originally posted by Kjelt
2) I just quickly tested 1:1.33 testpicture from a dvd player on svhs and took pictures quickly by hand (terrible quality but it proves your point)
I will ask Tim if he again will be so kind to host them.

Here are the links of those screenshots:
1:1.33 - 4:3 (http://miltech.org/avs/3_4_4_3.jpg)
1:1.33 - Full (http://miltech.org/avs/3_4full.jpg)
1:1.33 - Widescreen (http://miltech.org/avs/3_4theaterwide.jpg)
1:1.33 - Through (http://miltech.org/avs/3_4through.jpg)
1:1.33 - Zoom (http://miltech.org/avs/3_4zoom.jpg)

Thanks Tim for hosting the pictures.

Before everyone goes shouting about the off-focus of the pictures, no the PJ is fine and very sharp it was just that I had to quickly take some pictures and the auto-focus doesn't work ok, but they were good enough to confirm the question of PIP.

Concerning that question I heard that this phenomenon of zoom is known in the Benq8700 and TW200 PJ's it has to do with if you feed it progressive or interlaced which is exactly also the difference between my svhs input and the native VGA RGBVH input. If more is known about this I would love to hear that story (links anybody?)

Thanks CT! Hey, if you were going to get one now, which would it be? The BenQ or the Tosh? Or would you spend a little more and get the Sharp?

Joerod - You may be able to estimate whether rainbows would be reduced for your wife by comparing color wheel speeds and ft lamberts. You can get a very rough estimation by comparing lamp wattages across each screen size.

In general I'd expect the MT700 on a large screen to be much dimmer per square foot than a 65" DLP RP, and all else being equal, less prone to rainbows.

You also need to compare how far from the screen width she'll be sitting between both. Eye movement looking across a large screen contributes to rainbow perception. I notice more rainbows with my MT700 at 1.5x screen width than 2.0 screen width.

Good point flyingGimp. She would be back atleast 2.0x screen. I will take a chance on a DLP PJ, just not sure which one yet. I do have time, but the more I read the more confusing it becomes. I like the quote from The 3 Stooges, "I try to think, but nothing happens".

joerod -- From what I've read, I would not get the Sharp. I'm leaning towards the Tosh, primarily on price and the Faroudja de-interlacing.

However, I hope to see Mike's (MikeSRC) MT700 sometime next week, and I'll have a better idea then. I really like the picture that the 1280 x 720 DLPs throw, except for the brightness, but that can be solved with an ND2 (or ND4?) filter.

If motion artifacts on the MT700 are minor and acceptable levels, then my budget will decide. Otherwise, it's back to an LCD PJ, probably the Z3 (and pocket the extra cash). As you've read on my other posts, the motion artifacts on the IF 7205 (especially on D*'s Discovery HD Theater) are unacceptable to me.

FG -- I didn't see any RBE on either the 7205 or the 4805 that I saw, even at 1.0 x screen width. Are you sure it's RBE and not some other artifact, that's bothering you?

Ct, is there any major reason why you would take the Tosh over the BenQ (I know they're bros) besides the Faroudja chip. The BenQ seems cooler with the sense eye trick in Theater mode. Anyway, I wouldn't need scaling because I would be sending almost everything in at 720p anyhow. I was just curious because I am on the fence. Thanks for your input, Joe.

CT - I definitely occasionally see rainbows on the MT700. I didn't say they bothered me, but my eyes do see them. It's definitely not some other effect. For me, small bright objects on a dark background produce the quick multicolor flash of a rainbow. It tends to happen more when my eyes move around the screen (i.e. eyes move to focus on the small bright object).

Rainbow sensitivity seems to vary wildly by person. My wife has never seen one on the 4805 or the MT700. Color wheel sync also seems to have an effect, so it can vary from unit to unit as well.

That's just it FlyingGimp, my Wife sees them and I don't. The further she sits back from our 65inch Optoma DLP RPTV the better though. So I figure with us sitting back 20 feet from the screen that hopefully she will be less effected. That would be a little over 2.0x the screen. I thought about going all out for the Optoma 77 or even the 79 but with the 3 chippers on the horizon it doesn't seem smart to invest more now. I am sure that when they do come down I will get a 1080p PJ. I can justify spending around 3,000.00 for one now. I just can't figure out which one to get. Either the Tosh or the BenQ. Like I said before, I try to think, but nothing happens...

Joe, unless the "Sense-Eye" gets rid of the DLP motion blur artifacts, I don't see any reason to spend the extra cash on the PE7700 (about what I paid for my 106" diagonal screen).

{NOTE: Quoting street prices is against forum rules.}

The BenQ description of "Sense-Eye" leaves too many details out (mostly marketing words). One of its functions is de-interlacing (which I will use, at least for some inputs) and the Faroudja chip appears to be better. What the other functions are performed is somewhat nebulous.

Other than the cool words, do you have some technical reason why "Sense-Eye" processing actually helps? Like, does it add motion adaptive corrections, and, if so, how does it decide what part of the picture to correct?

You have a real good point CT. I better wait it out a little longer til someone sheds some light on the Sense Eye jargon. Also, I read and really liked the Tosh manual. It makes it sound real easy installing a PJ. The funny thing is I am not a fan of Faroudja (MacroBlocking issue with dvd players), but like I said, if I am sending in my own 720p, then will it matter if it has Faroudja?

Yup :D. They both are supposed to have the same scaling chip, so there is no difference there. But, again, if you're feeding it 720p, that doesn't matter to you either.

Sorry for the newbie question here, but what are "motion artifacts"?

And if one uses an external scaler and sets the projector up for 'direct mode' (what ever it is called if no scaling is done by the projector) will there still be "motion artifacts"?

Ok, that’s a fair question. I’ll try to keep this as clear as possible. The artifact has no absolute relation to scaling, but scaling may slightly reduce the perception.

The motion artifact that I saw is best described as looking at a clear, sharp picture. The camera pans to follow a foreground object in motion. The background (not moving) suddenly goes blurry (to be expected but it only goes blurry in the direction of the pan). As soon as the panning stops, the background is suddenly sharp and clear. Where this was the worst was on a Discovery HD Theater show on Mir Cats. This was shot in Africa in very bright sunlight. To prevent overexposure, the camera lens was stopped way down so the depth of field went all the way from the foreground subject to infinity (the entire picture was in very sharp focus).

Normally (if you were there), your eyeball would defocus the background, at least slightly. If the subject moves, you don’t even notice that the background has blurred out with the motion. However, we’re watching a 2D image and our eyeballs see everything in perfect focus (as it was shot). Now, when the camera pans, everything goes out of focus except for the subject, and the brain can get confused (at least mine did).

Where the camera is just panning across a distant scene, we expect to see the image blurry, and the result is a more normal reaction of the human eye and brain. Also, movies are less subject to this effect, since they are usually shot under more controlled lighting, but the effect can still be there.

The bottom line is that some people can adjust to this effect easily, but for some it can cause headaches or even nausea. Also the effect is made worse by the, typically, brighter image of the DLP projectors. That is what really got to me with the 4805, between the SDE of the lower resolution (854 x 480) and the very bright picture, I got a headache very quickly. The 7205 was not as bright and didn’t affect me as much. When the salesman changed to a DVD, the affect was still there (on pans) but I wasn’t bothered as much. The 7205 was still too bright for my tastes, and one of the AVS members mentioned that the extra brightness can make the motion blur artifact perception much worse.

A lot of the effect of this artifact is psychosomatic. Apparently, DLP projectors are more subject to producing this artifact when compared to LCD PJs. I’m not sure why, but it may be related to the faster response time of the DLP panel (DMD) and the sharper, brighter, image that is produced by light reflected off the DMD as opposed to light being transmitted through the 3 LCD panels.

I love the picture that a DLP produces and if I do decide to get a DLP, I will also buy and install a ND2 filter immediately. The MT700, for instance, is at least twice as bright as my current LCD PJ (a Panasonic PT-L300U). I have a bright screen and I will have to pay more attention to not exceeding the maximum recommended 20 Ft-L (Foot-Lambert) brightness (movie theaters run between 10 and 15 Ft-L).

{NOTE: Brightness (Ft-L) = PJ Lumens X Screen Gain / Screen area (Square Feet)}

If you’re interested, see the following thread for details on Neutral Density (ND) filters:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=533035

I apologize for the length of this post, but I hope it helps.

Originally posted by Kjelt
If i use 3:4 input source, in zoom mode the PJ scales both directions , BUT not equally, it makes horizontal taller elipses from a circle (about 15%). So my guess is the 2) is happening to you?


Looking at your 4:3 source in Through mode, I think it's *not* really 4:3. The circle is not round there. (Through should be pixel 1:1 map so it is the true aspect shown)

In 4:3 mode, the PJ force the input pixels to fit into a 4:3 area. So it looks round.
In full the PJ basically force the input pixels to fit into a 16:9 area of the full panel. So horizontal/vertical gets diff scaling factor depending on its original aspect ratio.
In theater wide it must be doing non-linear stretching (like plasmas doing "Just" mode for SD TV broadcast)
In zoom, (the same menu is called "Letterbox" in Benq), it should be doing 1.33 both direction, if the input pixels have not already filled the panel. If it has already filled horizontally, the zoom will only do it vertically. My old panny plasma has this exact behaviour.

In the test imgs you posted, the zoom in both direction should be the same. Dun forger the original input is *not* round circle in the first place. (Look at the Through mode again)

c722 -- That (not round circle) may be due to tne camera lens -- if it's not set to the 35mm equivalent of 50mm, it will distort the image.

You have to look at which image is the closest to the "Through Mode" picture.

c722 -- I went back and looked at the links. The two sets that Tim provided links for are different. The first set (post #639) appears to be from AVIA (shot in 4:3 format). There the "VGA - Full" looks the best.

In Tim's second set (post #645) appears to be from DVE. If it is, DVE was shot in 16:9 format, so the comparisons would be different. In the second set, all of the pictures seem distorted, but the "Zoom" mode has the least.

Tim/Kjelt could you clarify what we are seeing?

Kjelt didn't provide me with any other information about the images, so he'll have to answer to which test disc and/or settings were used for each screenshot.

originally posted by neoisone

Thanks for the HS51 and MT700 comparison. Which projector has better black level? Which projector produces a less noisy image including panning scenes? What resolution was your source? I will be watching DVDs in the dark.

Most of my viewing was at 480i although I did some viewing at 480P, 720 and 1080 as well. It was all DVDs. Although upconverted images were distincly different from 480, my observations about the projectors did not change.

The Sony has a much lower black level, but remember it is a dimmer projector. It also has a much lower white level. The iris also helps it get very dark scenes quite a bit darker. However, the Toshiba with a ND2 filter came quite close to the Sony, and I was quite satisfied with the black level from the Toshiba with the filter. I think all but the most die hard black level fans will be.

Regarding noise during pans: To people sesitive to this, LCD and DLP have a very different look during pans. The Sony looks like an LCD, and the Toshiba looks like any other six segment 5x DLP. If you don't understand what I'm talking about, you won't have a problem with either machine. If you are greatly bothered by DLP panning artifacts, you will notice them on the Toshiba - especially at close distances. Most people will never notice these artifacts, which is why I'm hesitant to describe them.

Pip

Pip -- You just ruined my day. I was hoping the MT700 was better than the IF7205, which bothered me. I loved the picture, but didn't like the panning noise (motion artifacts).

Now I definitely will have to see one in action before I pull the trigger on one. I sit 10 1/2 feet from my 106", diagonal, screen. I was planning on using a ND2 filter to cut the brightness to acceptable levels.

I want to enjoy my PJ, not get headaches from it.

Originally posted by CT_Wiebe
c722 -- I went back and looked at the links. The two sets that Tim provided links for are different. The first set (post #639) appears to be from AVIA (shot in 4:3 format). There the "VGA - Full" looks the best.

In Tim's second set (post #645) appears to be from DVE. If it is, DVE was shot in 16:9 format, so the comparisons would be different. In the second set, all of the pictures seem distorted, but the "Zoom" mode has the least.

Tim/Kjelt could you clarify what we are seeing?


First set: Digital Video Essentials PAL version 16:9 anamorphic testpicture on a HTPC , native resolution 1280*720 60Hz (720p) to the RGBVH BNC input of the projector.

Second set: Digital Video Essentials PAL version 4:3 testpicture on SVHS input to the PJ (576i)

Originally posted by c722
Looking at your 4:3 source in Through mode, I think it's *not* really 4:3. The circle is not round there. (Through should be pixel 1:1 map so it is the true aspect shown)

I see what you mean and I am sorry about that it was a hurry hurry job to give feedback for PIP's zoom argument. As Claus said: it is distortion of the camera, the circle was round, i measured it. Besides if you use a program like paint shop pro en draw a circle in the circle it makes the evidence even worse since the original is a taller ellips and the zoom version is a wider ellips.

So untill someone can explain this to me I agree with PIP that the ZOOM mode is FAULTY. It DOES NOT zoom 1.33 both ways.

On 4:3 interlaced source the ZOOM mode lacks 15% vertical stretch.

I have heard about PJ's that act differently on interlaced versus progressive inputs. Still this does not explain why the zoom on interlaced is incorrect.

Pip,

What about noise and artifacts in non-panning scenes eg. walls in the background, blue sky, etc. Between HS51 and MT700, which produces a cleaner image? I sit 1.5x screen width from screen.

CT_Wiebe, thanks for the description. No need to apologize for the length. More info is always better.

Originally posted by Kjelt
So untill someone can explain this to me I agree with PIP that the ZOOM mode is FAULTY. It DOES NOT zoom 1.33 both ways.

On 4:3 interlaced source the ZOOM mode lacks 15% vertical stretch.


:( this doesn't look gd.... despite the manual saying this:

Zoom: Enlarges an image with letterbox format to display it in fullscreen format with a 16:9 aspect ratio. The upper and lower portions of the image are cropped. Use this setting for Cinemascope and Vista video wide screen formats.

Now it seems it only does the right zoom on 720p source (where horizontal line is fully filled). For my pioneer dv59avi HDMI 720p out, if I select output as "16:9 wide", a letterbox transfered 4:3 image will be shown in 16:9, with everything horizontally stretched. Then the zoom mode here should work. For your second set of test signal, the source is 576i, and only fills part of the 1280x720 panel. Probably this is why it tripped.

well probably just some small software bug...

Regarding "Zoom":

I didn't measure it, but lacking 15% vertical stretch seems about right to me. Also - on my unit the zoom geometry is the same (incorrect) through component at 480i or P, and through HDMI at 480, 720, & 1080. This is of course with NTSC.

Pip

originally posted by CT_Wiebe

Pip -- You just ruined my day. I was hoping the MT700 was better than the IF7205, which bothered me. I loved the picture, but didn't like the panning noise (motion artifacts).

Don't mean to ruin anyone's day, but to my eyes, the MT700 and 7205 are very similar in terms of these artifacts.

originally posted by neoisone
What about noise and artifacts in non-panning scenes eg. walls in the background, blue sky, etc. Between HS51 and MT700, which produces a cleaner image? I sit 1.5x screen width from screen.

I would rate both pictures equally - they both have a very smooth image given equal brightness. As I wrote in a previous post, with all LCDs I have seen in the past (all the Sonys, Sanyos, and Yamahas - including the most recent models) I have found LCD to be a bit noisy or grainy looking. For whatever reason, I do not find this with the 51. At that close a distance, you may notice slightly more SDE from the Sony, even with defocusing, but I find mgeg noise more bothersome than SDE at that distance.

With a noisy source, or a poor transfer, you will see more of the noise with a brighter image, therefore the Toshiba has the potential to show more noise because it has the potential for much greater light output. But this is not the fault of the projector - it's the fault of the source - especially mpeg artifacts. Just as movie theaters need to limit image brightness to prevent us from seeing 48gps flicker. We need to limit image brighness with DVDs to minimize all the mgeg artifacts. With a good quality HD source, you can use a much brighter image.

If you find the Toshiba too bright for your installation when the lamp is new, it is very easily toned down with a ND filter, which you can remove when the lamp ages, or when you need daytime viewing. You can also use a gray screen.

Motions artifacts aside, given proper brightness for the source, and a minimum seating distance or 1.5 x width for DVDs, I was equally content with the smoothness of both projectors.

YMMV.
Pip

Originally posted by CT_Wiebe
The motion artifact that I saw is best described as looking at a clear, sharp picture. The camera pans to follow a foreground object in motion. The background (not moving) suddenly goes blurry (to be expected but it only goes blurry in the direction of the pan). As soon as the panning stops, the background is suddenly sharp and clear. Where this was the worst was on a Discovery HD Theater show on Mir Cats.
Claus-

Have you been able to watch this same program on another display without seeing the blurring? What type of display(s) gave you the clear picture, and how would you describe it? Did it show the background as a series of 'clear, stepped' scenes/frames?

A friend and I recently did some comparisons of 720p and 1080i content, fed via DVI/HDMI from an HD Tivo into a 1280x720 LCD panel. We compared with the Tivo in 720p output as well as 1080i output (thus letting the Tivo scale/deinterlace 1080i to 720p, or the LCD do those tasks, or both do scaling, or neither). The 720p content in 720p mode was the best, not a surprise. Letting the Tivo scale 720p to 1080i, or 1080i to 720p, caused some 'motion blur' similar to what you describe, and having the LCD accept 1080i content in 1080i mode from the Tivo and scale/deinterlace it to 720p gave us more of the 'stepped scenes' as I described above, but I found neither to be more desirable than the other.

I have my new MT700 installed, but I will not receive my screen from AV Science until later this week, and I can then try some good tests with it. Casual viewing onto a white sheet has been fun, so far.

Regarding the zoom mode, I also noticed the problem here. I was feeding the Toshiba with composite video from a laser disc player. Playing a 1.85:1 letterboxed movie in 'zoom' mode made the movie look more like it was 2.35:1, with short, fat people. I sure hope this gets fixed! "Plan B" in the mean time will have to be using a video input and 'zooming' on my HTPC, if I can set that up.

Another point on the MT700 vs HS81 is life expetency. DLP's have a longer life than LCD's. Another huge point for me was the sealed light engine on the DLP's. There is a lot of dust here in desert.
I went with the 7700 myself. I also got a iScanHD+ and panamorph lens. So the nicer deinterlacer in the MT700 wasn't an issue. The Senseeye was described on projectorreviews as showing twice as many stars when turned on. I realize that description doesn't satisfy number crunchers or spec happy people, but it did it for me. If there are more stars there then I want to see them. Hopefully someone will do a head to head comparision sometime. I am tempted to see if Mike(SRC) would like me to bring my projector over next weekend and calibrate and compare them.
Warren.

HE BETTER LET YOU!

:)

Here is another note, this time about cable types/lengths and HDMI.

I installed a 25-foot (~7 meter) 24-gauge HDMI cable from my equipment to the TDP-MT700. On the equipment end, I added an "HDMI-female-to-DVI-female" adapter. I have two digital sources: an HTPC with a 6-foot DVI male-to-male cable, and an HD Tivo with a 6-foot HDMI-male-to-DVI-male cable. I manually switch between the two sources by changing connections at the DVI end of the adapter. Though I have only had this setup for a couple of days, so far all signals have been flawless. The cables/adapters were from Monoprice or the ones included with the HD Tivo.

wnielsenbb, That is my feeling so far to. I am on the fence still but if there are"more stars" I want to see them to. I would be using my own deinterlacing chips so I wouldn't need the Tosh's Faroudja. I still will be waitng a little bit so maybe the prices will be more similiar then...You are obviously happy with your "sense eye".

Chris, unfortunately, I’ve only seen that program on “the small screen” (27” TV, SD version). I’m not really surprised in what I did see; it was a “worst case” condition.

The 7205 was better than the 4805 (SDE added to the problem). I now know what I’m looking at and that screen brightness makes the perception worse, so I need see if I can adjust to it under proper conditions.

{Chris – it’s interesting that the zoom mode didn’t work for you. Which input were you using (HDMI)? It’s supposed to do exactly what you wanted.}

You guys don’t have to “sell” me on the MT700, if it’s anything like the 7205, I would really like it. The only question is how it looks to me, when it’s set to a “correct” brightness level.

Warren – Since I’m retired, I don’t have the extra cash to even think about the extra “goodies”. My “toy” spending days are reduced to the “absolutely must have” category. Going to the MT700 would be really stretching my budget already. I wasn’t even going to consider DLP PJ until I heard about this pair.

Claus-

Thank you for your notes. I saw the zoom problem when using 'composite video' input.

Originally posted by wnielsenbb
I am tempted to see if Mike(SRC) would like me to bring my projector over next weekend and calibrate and compare them.
Warren.

I am sure Mike would be interested in finding a time to do that!!

(notice how easy it is for me to volunteer someone else?)

Originally posted by CT_Wiebe
Yup :D. They both are supposed to have the same scaling chip, so there is no difference there. But, again, if you're feeding it 720p, that doesn't matter to you either. But what about DCDi? Assuming it's active while receiving a 720p signal (HD Cable) won't the 700's FLI3210 attempt antialiasing on the fly? And isn't that when motion artifacting gets introduced?

I was under the impression that the DCDi chip only did deinterlacing and thus only processed interlaced input sources. Of course I could definitely be wrong on this... anyone know?

I'll have to leave that one to the Faroudja experts. As far as I know, the motion artifacts are inherent in the DLP technology, but can be made worse if the processing (anywhere in video chain - including the source) is flawed.

The amount of motion blur, in the signal, depends on whether or not the de-interlacing was motion adaptive. Since, with a 720p signal, the de-interlacing has already been done, I wouldn't think that the Faroudja chip in the MT700 would be active, like Tim said.

LCD PJs display the artifact differently, and they are much less obvious (more like a CRT).

BTW, it's FL2310, not 3210 (slight keyboard dyslexia).

Teaser:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/109804667/331126528WAqeuf

Sorry there is only one so far, but more pics and such to come in the following days. This is a shot of a T3 recording off my Cox Motorola 6400 HD/DVR taken with a Sony DSC-P8 that shook a tad while taking the photo.

I'm using a 4'x8' Parkland Plastics 5/16" Durotherm-Lite for a screen, which is hung with twine right now (hehe :)), and coming down soon to get painted with UPW/Silversreen/etc. I'll take some more example photos tonight. Also, it's only calibrated by eye for the moment because I don't have a permanent DVD player (keep stealing my g/f's apex from the living room).

Just thought some would like to see a semi-decent photo of the MT700 in action ;)

Nice shot JohnnyOzero3. I love this scene. I use it for demo material as well.

DCDi is a feature of the Faroudja (actually Genesis now) chip that removes jagged edges on diagonal lines in standard interlaced video (the famous flag waving scene is still the best test for this). As such, it only works with interlaced sources. The deinterlacing of the 2310 only works with interlaced sources as well, so a 720p feed bypasses the deinterlacing. It also doesn't need scaling with the MT700, so that's why it's the best source, especially via HDMI (minimal processing and no D/A conversion).

We still do not know if the 2310 is also doing the scaling (it may be the separate Oplus chip mentioned on some of the European websites and also used in the BenQ 7700), so it may not be doing anything at all with a 720p signal.

Yeah I suck. I was taking a couple more photos using the HD/DVR recordings...and well...I'm not used to using it; I fat fingered the remote and deleted T3. Sucks.

I did take a couple more photos of the test screens and some Deadwood from HBO. Back in a moment to post.

How is Toshiba customer service compared to Benq's? I'm asking since I'm weighing the pros/cons to either getting the Toshiba TDPMT700 or its twin Benq. I want to factor this in in addition to the technical differences.

EDIT: Pics (moved and more added from later post)

http://community.webshots.com/album/331614577HhULDO?599

Anyhow, here are a few more shots. There's one of T3 again with more normal colors (now looks slightly undersaturated...its the camera), then Deadwood, grid lines, colors, and the MT700 looking cool.

All looks excellent, but if you look at the grid lines closeup, note that there is a purple haze/shadow on the outside of the gridline. There is also a green one on the opposite side. They are subtle but I can see them - not at normal viewing distances of course. I'm wondering if this means something is out of alignment...has anyone else noticed something like this? Note I'm just curious because the colors aren't visible except VERY close up.

*******Note: If I haven't said it enough times, the camera jacks everything up. The gridlines are MUCH sharper than the camera shows them. Heck, everything looks different and wrong with the camera. It definately isn't showing the detail/colors/brightness/contrast etc the projector is producing. Oh well, this stuff is just for a GENERAL idea, not actual PQ of the MT700.********

Zilla, I am in the same boat with you. I am trying to decide between the two as well. The Tosh does look impressive in Johnny's T3 shot. Of course not in person and screen shots are two different things. Though without calibration it still looked impressive. The BIG question is how is the BenQ in comparison? The same? A little better? Tosh's price is better, but why if they are the same? More to think about...

Jonny, can you get a few pics of some text (e.g. scores on a basketball game, etc, or even the DVR/STB menu, etc) from about 5' away? Perhaps try setting a time delay on the camera (when taking all of your shots) and set it on something so your hand doesn't introduce jitter.

Thanks!

Tim - that can be arranged...for a price :)

Just kidding. I will let you know that the camera seems to overexpose and not really capture how sharp the image is, but I'll mess with setting and see how it comes out. All those photos were taken with my hand off the camera (sitting on a speaker, or a shelf, etc). I should have some more time tonight to see what I can do with it.

Also, I'm a little confused as to what output setting I should have the DVR set to: 720p or 1080i. I can't get a straight answer from cox as to what signal they pipe into the DVR, and whether it actually outputs 720p or not, and whether it can vary depending on the broadcast signal. I think I'd rather have the PJ do the scaling if there is any being done, but I'm not sure. If the DVR can give the PJ a good 720p signal to match with the PJ then I'm all for it, but only if its not messing with it too much. Any thoughts? It's not a big deal because I'm not seeing a noticeable difference between the 1080i setting and 720p at first glance, but I need to take time to check.

Jonny, can you get a few pics of some text (e.g. scores on a basketball game...
You can just look those up online on espn.com or something... :D

On a slightly more serious note, johnnyzero, how close do you have to be to seen the purple and green lines that you talked about?

Jonny, with my HD cable STB I can set it to output either 1080i or 720p (or I think there's an auto option to output whatever it receives).

ok.....

very interesting stuff..

maybe this thread should get an "Official Title";)

kyser, mp?

Spent the weekend mounting my projector to the ceiling. Where I had to mount it causes the image to be slightly larger than my 4 ft tall screen at full zoom "in".

So, do I move the screen closer to the PJ, or build a 5 ft tall screen? (Seating distance is about 15 ft) Anyone here using a screen this size with the 700? Are you happy with it?

Honestly, after watching a few minutes of Shrek (anamorphic) at this size I'm leaning towards bigger screen. SD looks like CRAP!! at this size, but DVD looked GREAT!! to me even at 480i over S-Video.

Any thoughts about running at full zoom down?

Thanks to all for keeping the MT700 thread alive!

Also spent the weekend ceiling mounting the MT-700.
Have 120" diag. screen. No problem. PJ set 15'2" from screen, still have some wiggle room with the zoom. The first thing I watched is Shrek 2 from a six year old Toshiba DVD player outing 480i through RAM 40' component cables.
Very impressed as PJ is also straight out of the box at this point and I have yet to spray the DIY screen. A totally dark room is definately a plus!!

Okay guys - here are some more photos of the MT700. Once again I will reiterate that my camera messes up the photo - either its washed out, or too dark, too much color, too little, not sharp enough etc etc. None of the photos truly convey what I see.

That said, here you go. Shots are taken off my Cox HD/DVR outputting at either 1080i and 720p (I switched a bit and had a hard time finding a difference). Shots are done at either ~5 feet from my Parkland unpainted screen as requested, or back at just behind viewing distance of 12.75'. The Sony DSC-P8 camera was either on a ladder or ontop of my audio pier which is holding the PJ at the moment. My rug is thick so it was still hard not to get the camera to shake while on the ladder.

The MT700 bulb is on standard and the image was calibrated by eye and on the fly (heh). I included the majority of the menus for the heck of it (which the camera undersaturated btw).

Notes for each photo are on the right if I had anything to comment on.

Allright allright here they are:
http://community.webshots.com/album/331614577HhULDO?599

Originally posted by jonnyozero3
All looks excellent, but if you look at the grid lines closeup, note that there is a purple haze/shadow on the outside of the gridline. There is also a green one on the opposite side.

It could be just some small CA of the lens. Maybe one of those factors bringing down the cost of the PJ.
(and the photos get compounded by the camera's own CA...)

good point c722.....

nice setup jonnyo,

how high of the floor & at what distance are you projecting if you don't mind me asking?

Vashon - at the moment the projector is 36" high above the floor and about ~12.5 feet away for a ~98" image. Probably by this weekend it'll be moved to the drop ceiling and the image will be the same size but start about 30 in from the floor.

C722 - I can see a hint of the purple and green on the lines from about 64 inches away (the image is 98" diag so about 85" wide). Can't tell from seating distance but it worries me.

thanks jonny;)

don't worry about the hint of color, almost all dlp's have some extent of chromatic aberration, it's just the nature of it.

if you can't tell from your seating distance, your good.

johnny - Both my MT700 and my 4805 had a slight bit of chromatic abberation. The 4805 was actually noticeably worse (though both were only visible close to the screen). However the 4805 was on zoomed to max size and the MT700 is dialed slightly back from max size. If it really bugs you try putting the zoom to the middle of its range to see if it changes.

I agree. Almost all lenses have some amount of chromatic aberration - including the lens on the $13,000 Yamaha. (I'm no knocking it - it's a fabulous projector.)

If you can't see it from any reasonable seating distance - don't worry about it.

Pip

Jeffcom:

Thanks for the input. I guess I'll be starting my new screen tonight or tomorrow! I have a 4 x 8 Parkland plastic screen now. I can re-use a lot of the wood for the new screen so at most I should only be out $15 for the plastic. What wood I can't re-use on the screen will go for other home improvement projects. Not to try to turn this into a DIY screen thread, but I'm thinking of trying blackout cloth this time (although majority vote is Parkland plastics edges out BOC ever so slightly). It seems that BOC might be an easier way to get a >4' high screen. Parkland wants waaaaay too much for 5' plastic. What's your sceen made out of?


johnny:

I have the same halo around my gridlines. I can't see it from seating distance so I'm not too worried about it. Besides, after seeing how poor the convergence on my old CRT RPTV was, the Tosh is light years ahead even with this issue.

Repost...

How is Toshiba customer service compared to Benq's? I'm asking since I'm weighing the pros/cons to either getting the Toshiba TDPMT700 or its twin Benq. I want to factor this in in addition to the technical differences.

I'd guess BenQ and Toshiba are equally incompetent at customer service. I figure they'll stand behind their warranty, which is what's important to me.

A month ago Toshiba didn't have the MT700 in their support system (and may not now). I had to tell them I wanted support on their DLP home theater projectors MT500, MT700, and MT800 for them to help me. When I just said MT700 they looked it up and didn't find it in their computer. They then told me to call their business pj support.

One post (not sure where right now) on this forum stated that BenQ sent a used lamp for a replacement ( :confused: ). I don't know what the reason for getting the replacement was. Apparently they have replacement lamp stock problems at this time.

Consider this rumor for now.

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
I'd guess BenQ and Toshiba are equally incompetent at customer service. I figure they'll stand behind their warranty, which is what's important to me.

A month ago Toshiba didn't have the MT700 in their support system (and may not now). I had to tell them I wanted support on their DLP home theater projectors MT500, MT700, and MT800 for them to help me. When I just said MT700 they looked it up and didn't find it in their computer. They then told me to call their business pj support.


rotfl......

i guess customer service nowadays is a moniker for "a person answering phone calls for a company with a name they can't pronounce let alone spell it" :eek:

Hey guys,
I'd like to get some of you on this thread talking about the MT700's sync-ability. I'm about to embark down the treacherous path of figuring out which frequencies I can get it to sync to (from my PC with Radeon 9800 Pro) but I'd like to hear from other people who are trying the same kinds of things.

A couple of reasons: I'd like to see if I can get the color wheel spinning at different speeds (50 vs 60 Hz). I'd like to get judder-free film-source playback (~48 Hz or, probably not, ~72 Hz)

I am madly in love with my MT700, now I want to see what this baby can do :)

I'd like to get some of you on this thread talking about the MT700's sync-ability.
I dropped mine in a pond and it sank like a rock... :D

MikeSRC - you have a PM

thanks

Senor_Curtains -- Don't even think about 50 Hz power. I've seen an entire satellite tracking station wiped out (all electronics fried) with a 50 Hz / 60 Hz interface error. Even DonRC's solution wouldn't help :D then. So far, no one has been able to figure out what the real speed is, let alone how to change it.

As far as smooth playback from a PC, set your video card to 1280 x 720, 60 (59.940 ?) Hz output to start with (see the HTPC forum for help). This should give you the best playback. The MT700 will work with the following: "Frequencies (hor./vert.): 20 - 88 kHz / 20 - 100 Hz".

Therefore, you can increase the display frequency to 72 Hz or 75 Hz with no problem. However, there is no guarantee that that will improve playback, and it may be worse. The same is true of 48 Hz. However, if you don't have any PAL DVDs, you will probably see no benefit.

Are you sure the "juddering" problem isn't internal to the PC? There are all kinds of software / hardware setup & interfaces that can produce that. If the playback is smooth from a STB DVD player, then look inside the PC for setup problems (again the HTPC forum is the place you should be looking in).

Just got a chance to view the 700 in person....finally!!! I was pretty impressed with the PQ!! We were watching it on an old DVD player and still was awesome!! HD.........stunning!! I was hoping that it was not very good, so I could spend less money on a panny, etc:D :D :D :D

Anyways, just wanted to give my two cents!!!

Thanks to jonnyozero for the hospitality!!!!

Chad

Hey Claus,

"Frequencies (hor./vert.): 20 - 88 kHz / 20 - 100 Hz".

Thanks for the info! Can I ask where you found it? (I don't see it in the manual, but maybe I'm just not looking hard enough?)

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
johnny - Both my MT700 and my 4805 had a slight bit of chromatic abberation. The 4805 was actually noticeably worse (though both were only visible close to the screen). However the 4805 was on zoomed to max size and the MT700 is dialed slightly back from max size. If it really bugs you try putting the zoom to the middle of its range to see if it changes.
Make the image as small as you can ( no zoom ) and then back the PJ away from the screen wall until you achieve the desired size. Doing this allows you to have as little chromatic abberation as possible.

jonny: as every one else said, CA is kind of inevitable for a "reasonably priced" lens. If it cannot be seen at all at 1x screen width, I would imagine it's more than gd enough. Especially for such a wide angle lens (which gives u big picture at short distance). CA is only really visible on high contrast area (like bright light on dark areas). See this CA from a prosumer grade wide angle digicam (a $500 Canon S70 ), it's much worse
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/CanonS70/Samples/specifics/IMG_8864-001.jpg

CT_Wiebe: Senor_Curtains has a point. I also hope it can do true 48/72hz. As film is 24fps, NTSC playback gives u 3:2:3:2... sequence, i.e. every alternate frame gets repeated either 2 times or 3 times. This introduces judder, especially at pans. An external video prcessor (I'm not sure if a HTPC can do it) can do a frame rate conversion and lock the output at 48/72hz, i.e. repeat every frame at exactly 2 times or 3 times. This will be the smoothest possible. Currently not many PJ can sync it. For 48Hz the Infocus ones can. For 72Hz probably only those $$$ ones (like Runco) can. (Not so trivial because the color wheel needs to sync: 48*5 = 240 = 4x = 2x rotating speed on a RGBRGB wheel. 72*5 = 360 = 6x = 3x rotating speed of the same color wheel.) I'm not sure a PJ at this price level is able to do it. I read the IF can do 48 but not 72. It converts everything above 60 back to 60. (so it means when a PJ says it takes 20-100 it doesn't mean it can sync on them. It may be just doing a conversion)

If you have an IScan HD+, you can try its JUDD test pattern. If the PJ converts the 48Hz/72Hz back to 60, you should see obvious judders and other artifects. If not, you will see a smooth moving bar.

c722 -- Ok, now I see what you're getting at. Since the MT700 has a 5x wheel, it looks like the best sync is 60 Hz (5x wheel). The specs are the same as the IF7205, it would be interesting to see if the MT700 will sync at 48 Hz (will the 7205? This is an area where the published data is useless.

Senor_Curtains -- I got that from MikeSRC's web site.

The MT700 can sync to 48Hz as already discussed 4 pages ago. With my setup however (ATI9700Pro) I see a lot of crawlers popping up between the pixels which disturb me a lot. I have run the PJ on 50Hz but mostly on 60Hz. There is no difference that i can see between twe two on what i call horizontal judder.

Kjelt -- You're right, I forgot about that. The "crawlers" sound like video noise (from your PC? - black isn't really 0 IRE?).

Last night I was able to play with my projector for a short time (girlfriend: what are you doing? it already looks fine! Let's watch a movie! now! now! now!)

I tried setting the res to 1280x720@47.952Hz (film's native speed, I think)
what do you know, it worked!

I'm wondering if maybe the color wheel was spinning faster, I really don't know. But it _seemed_ like I was getting better colors somehow. On the other hand, perception is a finicky thing.

It seemed like pans were totally smooth. I was happy. But again, I don't really trust perception (I was watching Boundin' off of the Incredibles bonus disc)

So I ran Juddertest and: It showed that my framerate was, in fact, 47.952
It showed that I was dropping 0 frames
It looked smooth as silk.

So, that's what I saw. Note, however, that though I've had a projector for the past 5 years I've never experimented with refresh rates or judder control or any of that until just now, so it's entirely possible I'm making some newb mistakes :)

Congratulation for your running 47.952Hz input successfully, Senor_Curtains!

Can you please confirm the result with Buffer test (another test in JudderTest) and Tearing test in Relock.

I also ran buffer test, but I'm not sure what I was supposed to see...
What I saw was wide bars, evenly spaced across the screen, turning on one after the other in a rapid progression from left to right.

Also, what is the tearing test in Relock and what should I be looking for (and what does it mean)?

Following is the explanation of Buffer test:

================================================
Buffer test
The buffer test is in an experimental stage of development. What it does is render a vertical bar in one of twelve horizontal positions. The bar is advanced to the next position on each vertical refresh. The idea is to reveal whether the display device is throwing away frames in a systematic fashion. Since the twelve positions are even multiples of two, three, four and six, this means that any frames dropped at these rates will show up as bars missing at fixed horizontal positions. If no frames are dropped, or at least not systematically, all twelve positions will be flashing.
====================================================

OTOH, if some bars were looked brighter than others, that suggests MT700 reconvert 47.952Hz to 59.94Hz, and also beware if any bars looked broken.

Hmm, I'd really like to know if the MT700 was converting to 59.94Hz, but I didn't see it in this test. What I saw did indicate that no frames were being thrown away (i.e. each bar flashed, in sequence)
I didn't see any broken bars, or half bars (which would, I think, show up if there was tearing going on?)

On the other hand, I think I _did_ see some tearing while watching the DVD. So what does that mean? Is it just a matter of getting the DVD player to sync to monitor refresh or is that a symptom of things not working as hoped?

ReClock is a FREE Audio render which promises you End to End smooth video playback (Audio playback is somehow tricky) under 2:2(or 3:3) pulldown, and eliminates potential Tearing come along with VSync issue,
as long as CPU is fast enough.

Find more detail in:
http://reclock.free.fr/bb/index.php

Good luck to your coming exploration, peter

Originally posted by CT_Wiebe
Kjelt -- You're right, I forgot about that. The "crawlers" sound like video noise (from your PC? - black isn't really 0 IRE?).

No these are not the crawlers like the green worms etc. etc. these are very bright almost white disturbances in the video cause the sync. with PJ is not ok. That is why I am so interested in hearing about other people trying for the 48Hz, if they look closely to the screen can they see these artifacts occuring when they are going down from 50Hz?

Senor_curtains - What timings are you using for ~48Hz? What connection type: HDMI or RGBHV? Also, what video card/source are you using?

benchobi
My late post in answer to your question.
The screen material will be applied using a HVLP sprayer using a Mmud mixture. I will be posting results in the DIY screen forum. Hope to get started this weekend.

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
Senor_curtains - What timings are you using for ~48Hz? What connection type: HDMI or RGBHV? Also, what video card/source are you using?

(removed timings due to, see next post)

RGBHV connection (HDMI is being used by my Comcast HD DVR)
Radeon 9800 Pro (going out of the DVI port, via analog dongle)

oops, ignore those. I copied them out of the wrong monitor!
It's funny, FlyingGimp, because I don't think I have any information for you, considering that I'm using the timings you posted way back when. They work perfectly!

Senor Curtains: I tried to check your results on my ATI 9700 PRO
This was also the first time I ran juddertest and tried to see what you saw.
I can NOT verify your results so let's talk about this and see if I am making a mistake or that you might have made one:

First of all I saw that in the mode that the frame rate equals the refresh rate (1 refreshs/frame) that on 60Hz and 50Hz all bars were smooth. So i thought this can not be what the test is all about and realized that it is about 24fps, 25fps and 29,9fps video on these refreshs so I put the frame rate at 2 refreshs/frame.

=> question 1 did you also put it on 2 refreshs/frame?

I then saw the judder only when the bar speed was moved up, esp. to 5.

=> question 2 did you also put the bar speed on at least 5 ?

So now I saw the judder on 50 and 60Hz as expected I tried to go to 48Hz and ended with the following settings:

Horizontal
Front Porch: 440
Back Porch: 216
Sync Widt: 48
Scan Rate: 36.424kHz
Active Pixels: 1280

Vertical
Front porch: 8
Back porch: 20
Sync width: 11
Refresh rate: 47.989
Active pixels: 720


Pixel clock: 72.265MHz

As you see almost 48 Hz and the MT700 synced on it.
I ran again juddertest with the same settings as above and SHOCK!!! there was still a lot of judder. :mad:

I tried other settings and some more tweaking but it didn't help, no matter what i did the judder staid.

So I really would like to know what the settings were you tested the judder. Remember if you keep the barspeed at 1 and refresh at 1 then even under 50 and 60Hz you see no judder, it is smooth as a baby.

Also any experts out there can you tell me which settings exactly on juddertest will represent the most forecoming pannings on video?

Thanks a lot to everybody that is helping and contributing to this thread.

Are you changing these settings in Powerstrip?

Thanks

Originally posted by Kjelt
As you see almost 48 Hz and the MT700 synced on it.
I ran again juddertest with the same settings as above and SHOCK!!! there was still a lot of judder. :mad:


it looks like the MT700 is converting 48hz to 60hz internally.
:( I hope I'm wrong. (but considering the earlier Benq 8700+ does not do 48hz either.. )

Originally posted by c722
it looks like the MT700 is converting 48hz to 60hz internally.
:( I hope I'm wrong. (but considering the earlier Benq 8700+ does not do 48hz either.. )

Uh that would be 50Hz. If I press the input select button (in this case HDMI) it still shows 720p 50Hz but then I would not think it can display all frequencies and just syncs to the nearest.
So far as my tests goes I have no proof seen yet that 48Hz works for less judder, I am waiting for the others to do some decent testing. How bout you Mike(SRC), any results ?



BSims > yes I use powerstrip.

I am really psyched about getting this projector but I'm concerned about eye strain. Do the newer DLP projectors have less eye strain than previous ones? Does it give you headaches? I was poking around the FAQs, but that really doesn't answer anything about newer DLPs.

The bottom line is the "eye strain " phenomenon is completely subjective.
You owe it to yourself to spend some time with one before purchase, but I can say my MT700 seems to be more "stable" than my old 2x wheeled machine.


I love it...

TJ

Kjelt - I haven't had a chance to run juddertest again (moving my room around). I will run it again with your settings at some point.

Just for kicks, one thing to try would be 72hz. I did notice that the MT700 syncs to 72Hz and actually says "720p @ 72Hz" as opposed to "720p @ 60Hz" when sending a 48Hz signal. This was over RGBHV.

nothru22 -- So am I. I'll report back after I've seen the MT700 in action, hopefully next week. The 7205 (uses the same DMD) that I saw was better than the 4805. The "too bright" picture in the store's HT showroom made the eyestrain worse.

What happened, did we just stop supporting this thread all together or what?

Re Eyestrain...very subjective and people dependent

Just last June I attended a 2 day PJ shootout in Denver where we saw 10 or more different PJ for two solid days.

All but a Sanyo Z2 and JVC were DLP ranging from an IF4805, IF5700, IF 7205 all the way to a IF777 3 chip $30K system, Optima H77, NEC1100, Sharp 12000, etc..

Point is: I never saw rainbows, or had eyestrain in 16 hours of viewing all sorts of media on 4 different screen types white, grey, Firehawk etc...yet a visitor came in on the 2nd day, sat by me for about an hour or two and had to leave because he had a headache.

To my knowledge everyone else stayed as long as possible.

Just my .002

F-M-W -- That's probably because A) people are waiting to see what falls out or B) they're home enjoying their MT700 so much they can't be bothered with this thread :D (and they don't have any problems with it :D:D). There are also a number of MT700 threads which have been getting more action (they seem to have dropped off too).

mooney -- That's what I've reported from what I've seen. I suspect that people are mixing up the motion artifacts with RBE (one type of motion artifact). They are bothered and have heard about RBE and jump to the conclusion that that is what their problem is. Also, some, very small percentage, of people have 20/10 vision and may really see RBE - who knows. I sure didn't see any RBE with the Infocus PJs, then again, I didn't see any rolling white credits on a black background either. A lot of PJs (LCD & DLP) have problems with those.

There is a thread (on the >$3500 PJ forum) that discusses these problems:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=534504

Personally, I'd love to get the MT700 even though it's a good chunk of cash more than my second choices (LCD). However, I'm one of those small percentage of people with a predilection towards motion sickness. The motion artifacts on the IF 7205 bothered me and the 4805 flat out gave me a headache in 10 minutes. Both of these were projected on a 92” screen at way too high brightness (normal for a B&M store).

The fact that you (Bob) observed that there was only one person out of the group of viewers is not unusual. People in my category are in the minority. I only caution a potential buyer, as does MikeSRC, that there are people who are susceptible. This is why I have consistently recommended that the MT700 (and it’s PE7700 fraternal twin) are good DLPs and a great bang for the buck. I also recommended that they see the MT700 (or equivalent) in person to determine if the motion artifacts bother them. I also have stated, as I was informed on these threads, that the effect is made worse by a too bright picture.

This is why I want to see MikeSRC’s MT700 when I get to Los Angeles. I want to verify that the MT700 is not going to bother me, before I buy.

Mike, it now looks like I will be there towards the end of this week, we can only be in LA for about a week and want to attend the JPL open house on the 14th & 15th.

i haVE SEeN a few times interlace panning artifacts on my 700 where I see the combed interlace frames on the edges at movement. This is via DVI-HDMI from my V880, and only some some disks. Any thoughts?

BTW I am sitting here surfing on the MT700 from mini bluetooth keyboard-mice on my ibook 12"- which I just finally got fed into the 700. I had to patch in the unsupported spanning and 1280 resolutions- but a friend whwo saw this setup, especially the 700's pip an pop modes, was blown away. He regularly uses pip and pop but never seen them on a projector.

emailists -- Thanks, that's encouraging. The artifacts you mentioned could be on the DVD, or it could be a problem with the V880 reading those disks.

The motion artifacts on the IF 7205 bothered me and the 4805 flat out gave me a headache in 10 minutes. Both of these were projected on a 92” screen at way too high brightness (normal for a B&M store).
I've found that an ND2 filter on my 4805 makes fatigue, etc., go away completely. Tough to judge anything critically when it's cranked at a store trying to "wow" passers-by.

Jack
The 92 in diagonal screen at the shootout was a 0.8 gain Carada and I bought it on the spot from David (Carada owner and good guy) and ordered a 4805.

I watched the remake of the original 1965 version of The Flight of the Phoenix last night with and without the ND hoya filter...the contrast is spectacular with filter but combined with the grey screen a little dark for my taste. Probably just right with a white screen or a positive gain screen.

Yeah...I'm only running 80" and it's white (light fusion). Needless to say, really bright when naked. :)

The 80" screen would really be headache central for me, I've got a 106".

I'm still planning on seeing the MT700 for myself, unfortunately, my trip to LA has been postponed for another week due to other scheduling.

Jack, I'm really glad that the ND2 on your 4805 made the "fatigue" go away. That's encouraging for me (RE: getting the MT700). Most stores, even some high-end ones, still don't get it.

There was a thread a few months ago about "DLP and eyestrain"

If I remember right, the conclusion (at least for most people) was that it was simply too bright! They were using fairly small screens with fairly bright projectors.

The solution was to back light the screen. Some people put christmas lights behind the screen to ease the eyestrain.

You pupils adjust to average light in the room. So If the room is very dark your pupils will open up to let more light in. If there is a small screen the is very bright you pupils won't close enough. you either need a bigger screen or a dimmer picture. That is why you need lights on when you watch a regular TV.

With a front projector you can't really have any lights on. So you need to either dim it, or make it big enough for your eyes to adjust properly.

~Jay

baddabing!

Edit: useless flame link removed. That's what I get for linking before reading...