Anyone know anything about the Toshiba TDPMT700 front projector? It seems like it's coming in under the radar thanx to the popularity of the Panasonic AE700U. I for one held of my purchase of the 700 because of the buzz it's getting from CES held in early January.

I'm in the same boat, held off a purchase of the Sharp to check out the Toshiba. I'm hoping reports start coming soon.

Not sure if its coming in under the radar as its already been mentioned a couple of times on AVS. It will, like the Benq PE7700, be one of the first Po Folks 720P DLP projectors. I think it or the Benq is suppose to be out next month or in April, but I do not have the official Toshiba announcement in front of me to refer to.

I highly doubt its like the Infocus 7700 due to the specs I've seen so far, still I'm hoping its as good as I've read because if this is the case I'm not purchasing the Panny 700.

what are the supposed specs on the 7700? i too have been close to pulling the trigger on the panny 700...but haven't yet.

i've heard six-segment, 5x speed color wheel, and has ratings of 1000 ANSI lumens and 2000:1 contrast and HDMI.

Well, its been three more weeksn any any new information?

Originally posted by broadwayblue
what are the supposed specs on the 7700? i too have been close to pulling the trigger on the panny 700...but haven't yet.

i've heard six-segment, 5x speed color wheel, and has ratings of 1000 ANSI lumens and 2000:1 contrast and HDMI.

Hi, you can find the official spec sheet from BenQ on the 7700 in the link below

Link about 7700 (swedish)
http://www.component.se/forum/index.php?showtopic=2269

Spec from BenQ (english)
http://www.component.se/docs/products/benq_final_spec_sheet_pe7700_0217.doc

cheers

/Par

edit: added direct link to sheet

I just called Toshiba and they don't even have the MT700 in their system.

I saw a pre-sample of MT700 already a couple of weeks ago - it was not performing well at the time. I hope to get at productionsample for review before end of March.

If I remember I will post impressions in this thread :)

cheers

/Par

edit:clarifications

If price is your primary consideration this is your projector, It can retail for less than 2700.

Wow, froogle "TDPMT700" gives two results already. Out of stock of course but it's encouraging.

Due to the fact that panny just added a 200.00 rebate if you purchase before May 1, 2005 the latest dlp's will have to have a nice price drop for me to cinsider a purchase of a thousand dollars more. I just don't see the value there because everyone knows as soon as the 1080p projectors come down in price we will all want to upgrade. Who can't deal with the panny for a year and a half or so? I know it will make me wait easily.

Brochure courtesy of Toshiba Canada (http://www.complete-it.ca/pdfs/projectors/Toshiba/TDP-MT700.pdf)

I'm not sure I like the fratboy image they're giving of the MT700 potential buyers... :rolleyes:

Yeah it does make it look like a toy for kids rather then a serious home theater product.

The Toshiba brochure posted above has the CR at 2500:1. I seem to remember that during CES the press release was for 2000:1 while the Benq PE7700 claimed 2500:1. I guess Toshiba decided to match Benq's claimed CR.

Looks like 4X color wheel- not what I expected

I read on a previous post that it was switchable between 4x and 5x.

Curious, what reason for offering a switchable CW speed?

Doesn't the toshiba use faroudja?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Curious, what reason for offering a switchable CW speed?

Faster CW - less rainbows, more posterization / banding / false countours / motion dithering / whatever

Slower CW - more rainbows, less posterization / banding / etc etc

You choose your poison.

Already implemented on the Mitsubishi HC2000.

Doesn't the toshiba use faroudja?

Yeah it does, and it is indeed mentioned on the brochure.

Also, 6X x PAL 50 Hz = 300 Hz, 5x x 60 Hz = 300 Hz; this is what the NEC HT1000 did

Jeffcom or Grubert, where (URL?) did you read that it was 4x or selectable? thx.

quack724

Go to Grubert's post at 5:35am today and click his link for the brochure.

On the spec sheet see "color wheel RGBRGB X4" This is a six segment color wheel, four speed.

Not heard about selectable speed. Hope there is. Need 5x to minimize rainbows.

Jeffcom, thanks..I see it. hmm...is that why it's MSRP is lower than the Sharp XV-Z2000? I was told the Sharp has a 5x.

Originally posted by quack724
Jeffcom or Grubert, where (URL?) did you read that it was 4x or selectable? thx.

I read it back in September '04 on the first thread on this projector: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=446554

Wheel RGBRGB x4 / x5, user can swith mode

Quack 724
You raise a good question. I too thought the Z2000 has 5x wheel. Also figured the BenQ7700 and Toshiba MT-700 are to compete head to head- at a better price point, as these models are coming out 6-12 months later.

Beginning to see that there may or may not be some substantial differences between these three PJ's. Anybody know what CW speed is on the Sharp? Not found on Sharp's own literature I got at Cedia!!

Thanks Grubert for the above link. Am also interested as to what silicon chipset Sharp put in the Z2000. I sure hope the selectable CW is a reality.

Could someone who has the MT700 brochure post it here or host it? The link doesn't seem to work for me at the moment.

I can host it as well if someone emails it to me. zmetz@cableone.net

I'm dying to know what the throw will be on this unit. Does the brochure mention it, or has it been posted anywhere?

Missed the Swedish link. It has the throw info for the Benq 7700: 100" at 9.8. Assuming that 100" is diagonal then this would roughly match the Benq 8700 throw.

This is awesome because I have a small room and would love to push this right to the edge of SDE :cool: .

I think this is the one for me... mmmm.

Any idea of the throw for the MT700?


Anyone lurkers out there worried about 4x vs. 5x should try to find a 4805 to look at. I too was scared of rainbows. Not a problem on my 4805 for me, even shooting on a 60" wide screen with no ND filter. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones who's not too rainbow aware.

After being tempted by the H77 deal and reading about their clayface problems, I personally will take less posterization.

Here's a thread with the MT700 brochure: MT700 (http://www.component.se/forum/index.php?showtopic=2318)

Looks like a very similar throw to the 7700.

I like the dorm guy target market. Those fools want a huge screen for their video games, which made the throw short. That'll be great for my Xbox/Xbox 360.

Hmmm, now where'd I put my keg and my grunge knit cap...

Wow so much antisapation. I feel like this is the final two minutes in a football game and we need to go 99 yards for the winning score. So intense are these forums the past few days that I'm losing sleep LOL. I'm tired of waiting!

Let's make this the "Official MT-700 Thread"

From my Toshiba distributor's listing:

Toshiba HD2+ DLP 1280 x 720 mirrors, 1000 ANSI Lumens, 2000:1 Contrast Ratio, 6 segment 5x Color Wheel, Faroudja DCDi Video Processing, HDMI with HDCP Input, 2-Component Video Inputs, RS-232 Control, D-Sub 15 Input

Supposed to be arriving tomorrow, but I've heard that before from these guys.

The throw on both works out to be 1.35 with a 1.3 zoom for the Toshiba and 1.37 for the BenQ. I'm curious about what the offset would be on either (that's one of the most poorly published, yet critical, stats for a PJ, IMHO).

Later,
Bill

Mike SRC, will you be giving us a review or comparison with the Optoma's when you receive your MT-700?

I hope the review comes shortly because I'm ready to purchase.

It's already up on the Toshiba Germany site (http://www.toshiba.de/projektoren/pages/mt700.asp).

"Ultra-rapid 6-segment colour wheel". Hmmm...

Originally posted by quack724
...is that why it's MSRP is lower than the Sharp XV-Z2000? I was told the Sharp has a 5x.

I have been following the Sharp XV-Z2000 and the Toshiba TDP-MT700 on these forums while taking some notes.

I read here, but I didn't keep the link to it, that the Sharp had a 6 seg. 4x color wheel. This info on the Sharp seems to be not openly available (it is not published on Sharp's website), so one may just wonder why...

OTOH, my notes on the Toshiba from info posted here after CES, indicated a contrast of 2000:1. Now a brochure from Toshiba Canada (http://www.complete-it.ca/pdfs/projectors/Toshiba/TDP-MT700.pdf) shows 2400:1, while another one from Toshiba Germany (http://www.toshiba.de/projektoren/resources/pdf/mt700_e.pdf) shows 2500:1 :confused:

GCG,

See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=490678&perpage=20&pagenumber=8

According to Jason, the Sharp has a 5x..but I honestly am not sure where he got the 5x # from.

I too am also confused by the various CRs of the Toshiba.

Originally posted by MickB
Mike SRC, will you be giving us a review or comparison with the Optoma's when you receive your MT-700?

Yes, and it's looking like I'll have the MT-700 before the H31, since the 700's due in on Monday.

Regarding the CR and wheel speed, I believe it's likely to be the 2500:1 CR and the 5X speed reported on the German website. I'll be checking the CR with OpticOne and Avia Pro.

Mike SRC- thanks for the great news regarding the Mt700 coming in on monday. Just wondering if you've seen the Hs51 and will be able to make any comments reagrding the 2. These are the 2 pj's I am considering and and anxious to buy since I just sold my Z2 (hopefully before 5 Million ways gets his!!!) OK just kidding- I've been influenced by the SOWK comments on the HS51 thread)

Can anyone comment on the fact that the HS51 MEASURES better (6000:1, 1200 lumens) than pjs like the low cost 720P DLPs, but may not (or may) look as good.

Apart from that, it's supposed to demo at the Cebit fair in Hannover. Any German forum members going there? I guess at least Ekkehart from cine4home ;)

For simplification I'll talk in quoted contrast. Real world contrast (especially if you have light colored walls) will be much lower.

The HS51 has 6000:1 in on/off contrast. This is measured with a totally black screen (dynamic iris closed completely) vs. a totally white screen (dynamic iris open completely). However for a particular frame of video the dynamic iris is in a single position. This means that for each frame you just have the contrast of the panels, which I believe is 1200:1 on the HS51, to work with.

Therefore single frame performance, often measured via ANSI contrast (a white/black checkboard), will generally be much better with a 2500:1 on/off pj with no dynamic iris vs. a HS51 6000:1 with a dynamic iris.

In the real world this means that on a space scene, black background with bright white stars/spaceship or Gandalf with a torch in Moria, there will be more difference in brightness between the white and black on a 2500:1 DLP vs the 1200:1 panel contrast HS51. Of course during a movie overall dark scenes will look darker and overall bright scenes will look brighter with the HS51, since the iris can close or open appropriately.

For me I want the hardest scenes (dark background with bright foreground) to look as good as possible. When the background on these scenes looks dark grey instead of black it pulls me right out of the movie. YMMV on what bugs you the most. Being a previously LCD owner I'm also turned off by the other problems with LCD technology: unsealed optical path (dust blobs), VB, motion blur due to panel response time, and the worst: Peek-a-boo scanlines. I haven't seen an HS51 so I don't know how much, if any, it suffers from any of these.

Coming back from the theoretical, I don't think we'll know whether the MT700 or HS51 produces better PQ until we start getting reviews coming in. Each has their strengths, so I imagine that certain users will prefer one or the other.

EDIT: fixed typo.

Mods

I thought the dividing line was MSRP - isn't this in the wrong forum? Or am I not up on the latest MSRP?

MSRP is $3499.99 . :D

I think we squeak in by $1.

I can't find an official US MSRP - . There was an official announcement from Toshiba (or was it TI?) that this pj will sell for "$3499", whatever that means. However I think mfgs typically talk only in MSRP. If you do a search for "TDPMT700" on www.froogle.com the prices are consistent with an MSRP of $3499 or lower.

While no means official this link (http://www.projectorsprojectors.com/toshiba/toshiba_tdpmt700/) states an MSRP of $3499.

Press release: http://www.projectorcentral.com/news_story_754.htm

I just went ahead and pulled the trigger on a pre-order from a reputable dealer. I've previously ordered an MX-800 remote control from them, so I think they're a great option. I think I got a great price so I'm pretty stoked.

Due to forum rules I can't post the dealer's name. Their web site just made this available this morning so hopefully it will show up on froogle/pricegrabber etc. in a day or so.

It's expected in on Monday or Wednesday of next week. I'm also getting a calibration done so it may be an extra couple days before it ships. Expect some comparison against my 4805 when it arrives.

My main concern now is that this thing does 1:1 mapping from an HTPC. I don't care if it has a little clipping like the AE700, but I've been spoiled by the pixel perfection of ffdshow on my 4805.

MikeSRC - any chance of confirming 1:1 HTPC pixel mapping with your review?

Sure do hope this thing hits the streets soon. I'm waiting for the caparisons between the MT700 and the Sharp 2K before pulling the trigger. I've had my Home Theater set up and ready to go...the only thing stopping me is the PJ.

Lemme see.....
The Sharp 2K was originally end of Nov., so I wait until December then am told to wait for the CES to be over. So, I wait for the CES to be over and am told to wait on the Toshiba MT700 and the BenQ PE7700 in March. Then I hear the BenQ is pushed to late April. So, come on Toshiba! Also, thanks to all of you who can put these PJ's through their paces. I can't find them to demo here in Baltimore (yet), so I am relying on what you all discover.

Interesting Toshiba market stategy on product lineup - they priced their DC2 480P version well over the SP4805 list, yet their 720P is well under the SP7205. Nearly 4x differential for Infocus to jump from 480P->720P. But only 2x for Toshiba jump. I had heard it was going to be higher MSRP than that - but carry on!

I think this and the equally equipped/priced BenQ 7700 due out next month is going to cause some shuffling on prices of other HD2+ projectors. Not to mention, everyone else is going to have to have a similarly priced offering.

MikeSRC - any chance of confirming 1:1 HTPC pixel mapping with your review?

Sorry, I don't use an HTPC (although Jason's past screenshots have tempted me). :D

The best I can do is check it out with a Bravo D2.

It really is worth a couple hours to set up an HTPC. ffdshow plus the Nvidia filters are quite good, and DVI doesn't hurt. I was amazed at the improvement over a Panny RP-56 (decent DVD player) on my 4805. I imagine the improvement will be even more dramatic at a higher resolution, though a pretty beefy machine is needed for 1280x720 scaling.

Of course only think about this *after* you give us the review of the MT700.

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
It really is worth a couple hours to set up an HTPC. ffdshow plus the Nvidia filters are quite good, and DVI doesn't hurt. I was amazed at the improvement over a Panny RP-56 (decent DVD player) on my 4805. I imagine the improvement will be even more dramatic at a higher resolution, though a pretty beefy machine is needed for 1280x720 scaling.


It's not the setup time that's stopped me so far, it's the cost, at least the way I'd want to do it.

Of course only think about this *after* you give us the review of the MT700.

Of course. :D

Originally posted by Ursa
I'm curious about what the offset would be on either (that's one of the most poorly published, yet critical, stats for a PJ, IMHO).


I've read that it has zero offset, ie, the bottom of the picture will be at the same height as the projector lens.

I just ordered the projector online and will have it in a day or two. I may have a chance to compare it with my Z2 before it gets shipped to its new owner- but I'm not sure how useful a comparison it wouldbe. I may bring it to A friends who owns an HS51. That would be an interesting comparison.

Some dealers who use the same central distributer were showing 5 units available since Friday. I'm really surprised no one has snapped these 5 up over the weekend (there's only 4 now). I probably should have waited till Mike SRC posted his review, but with so low quantites, I didnt want to get shut out waiting for another shipment to come in. (I remember when the Z2 was the hot projector and I scored 1 of only 5 B&H got in thier first shipment- it was quite a while before they got more) Plus I figured the 7700 would be at least $500 more, even if it turns out to be better will it be worth over 25% more of the upgrade cost to selling my Z2 and getting another projector. (already costing me $1500 to upgrade)

Plus I don't feel like waiting a month or so for the 7700 and a shootout with the MT700 since my Z2 will be gone this week. I'm glad I didnt go for the HS-51- It does look really nice, and if it weren't for this forum and the advice of waiting for Sony to ship updated units, I would have owned that already, and would be mighty bummed I didnt get the Toshiba.

ALso the low low price of the Toshiba means I'm just that much closer to getting a 1080P unit if they're reasonable in 1.5-2 years. Sick, isn't it, I haven;t even gotten the MT700 and I'm already thinking about the right time to sell it.

I'll report back what it looks like on my grey goo screen with masking and partialy dark walled viewing room.

One more question.. SInce Grubert pointed out the zero offset issue, doesnt that mean that if the projector is mounted upside down on a wall mount it would be even with the top of the screen?

ANy suggestions for a good but reasonably priced wall mount for the Mt700?

Originally posted by emailists
Plus I figured the 7700 would be at least $500 more, even if it turns out to be better will it be worth over 25% more of the upgrade cost to selling my Z2 and getting another projector. (already costing me $1500 to upgrade)

Well, if we rely on MSRP, the 7700 will cost less than the MT700 not more.


One more question.. SInce Grubert pointed out the zero offset issue, doesnt that mean that if the projector is mounted upside down on a wall mount it would be even with the top of the screen?


Mind you, the information I gave is totally unofficial and unconfirmed. But anyway, yes, if you use it like you said, it would be flush with the top of the screen.


ANy suggestions for a good but reasonably priced wall mount for the Mt700?

Here's my personal BenQ wall mount (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/mayorgrubert/IMG_0486b.jpg). You can't go much cheaper than this! :D

Can't wait for MikeSRC's review...

I'm surprised at the price right out of the gate for this projector... is that because Toshiba has bigger distribution than, say, Optoma or Benq?

I use a TV mount for a wall mount. You can either place the projector upside down on it, or invert the mount and hang the projector from it.

The MT700s are on the truck for delivery, so I'll have some details later today.

Mike great idea- I never thought about just putting the projector on a shelf but upside down. I guess I could always make some feet out of rubber or styrofoam or something on the corners supporting the projector in case the top is not totally flat, or just to give it some breathing room for heat dissipation.

Those 4 projectors are still listed as being in stock- I cant believe no ones jumping on these things!

I may just have to bribe Mike into posting a gushing review just so I don't have buyers remorse and wish I got the HS51 or waited for the 7700.

Mike, you take paypal? How much to get you to say the Mt700 looks better than the Qualia?

edit- OK I think I've decided if no one buys these 4 available units by the end of today I'm going to buy them myself and hoard as many units as I can get my hands on. Maybe I'll have one running in each room, or double stack them for 2000 lumens, or just give them out as gifts to my projector challenged friends, or maybe sell "soap with a prize" and include a free projector......

I just pulled the trigger and ordered 1. I was going to wait for the Benq 7700 but I decided to just go ahead and try the Toshiba 700. Now I hope the Web Site I ordered it from is not pulling a bait and switch on me. I should have the shipping conf # tomorrow.

On a side note, what ceiling mount do you think will fit this unit? I checked the Toshiba web site and the 700 is not even listed yet (scary). Also, this is my first projector so I need a little advice on a screen for this unit. I have a dedicated Theater Room with dark walls and ceiling and total light control, any thoughts? I was originally thinking the Dalite Cinema Contour 52"x92" Cinema Vision w/ProTrim but at over $1K I was hoping there was a cheeper alternative with out sacraficing quality.

Thanks

PS did anyone receive this unit yet?

Bowerboy

Bowerboy

Try Carada screens good quality and great price.

carada.com

A good option is to try one of the do-it-yourself screens to begin with. White "Do-able" board is by the pegboard at Home Depot. You can have them cut it to 85.33"x48" - voila, a screen for ~$12.

I've watched a couple movies with a 2'x2' sample of Da-Lite Matte White taped on mine and see no difference. Shockingly matte white is matte white.

After this you can take your time comparing samples. Even with a dark room you still might want a gray screen, depending on how black you like your blacks. Just email the various screen mfgs to get samples. Also ask for larger sample sizes - it really helps in evaluation.

I'm personally thinking of pairing the MT700 with a Da-Lite HCMW. Depending on reviews, I might try a Sony Black screen (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=awiRF_uuDdKRMbmYL3SbHLSh7g2Jjt2Z3qU=?CategoryName= tv_TVDepartmentAccessories_FrontProjectionAccessories&ProductSKU=HCSW80&INT=sstyle-SonyStyleRoot-homefeature-HCSW80) in the future.

Okay, got a chance to spend a few minutes with the MT700 and so far, I'm impressed. The U.S. units are exactly the same as the brochure and webpages linked previously on this thread. Won't have a chance to use the HDMI input until tomorrow, but based on a few DVDs and a little HD through the component video input, this (and presumably the BenQ model on which its based) is a winner. I'll be calibrating it tomorrow, but I would say the image straight out of the box is pretty accurate. Like the InFocus projectors, it's supposed to have a D65 cal.

The answer a few questions, it has a short throw and zero offset. A 120 diagonal 16:9 screen only requires a minimum of 11.5', with a maximum of 15'-7". An 80" screen can be filled at only 7'-8", with a maximum of 10'-5".
No extras (like any cables), which is what you would expect for a projector this low priced. The overall feel is solid, not cheap at all however. It's very quiet, much lower than a 4805 I also have in the same room. It's likely that it would hit the estimated 29 dB rating. Warranty is two years, with the usual 90 days or 500 hours on the bulb. More to follow.

How does it compare to the 4805 in color and contrast?

It's not possible for me to say yet. The 4805's been tweaked quite a bit with OpticOne and Avia Pro. I'm also using an ND2 filter with it. I haven't done anything with the MT700 yet. I have another job to get done first, so I won't have more info on the MT700 PQ until tomorrow

MikeSRC,

Are those definitely diagonal and not width measurements?

Unfortunately it sounds like the brochure is off quite a bit on the throw (100" diagonal @ 3.0m=9.8') The brochure based throw equates to an 8.6' distance throwing an 87" diagonal.

Oops, typo in my original post on the 80" screen. Should be 7'-8", not 8'-8". 90" diagonal is 8'-8".

From the manual, 100" diagonal has a minimum projection distance of 115" (2.92 m) and a maximum of 156.3" (3.97 m).

I've only roughly confirmed those numbers with my 92" diagonal screen, but they appear to be pretty accurate.

Whew. Thanks for the quick update. The throw sounds like it matches my room pretty well then.

Wow for the same price as the panasonic ae700 you can have this projector. I just found my new toy!

Strange world, in europe you could buy almost two AE700 for the same price as the MT700... MIke what is the colorwheel speed of the Toshiba? Is it 4x or 5x?

Please let me know if it has rainbows. Even if it doesn't the price of this unit is sure to force the prices down on many of the older models with a faster color wheel.

Originally posted by drpp
... MIke what is the colorwheel speed of the Toshiba? Is it 4x or 5x?

I would assume it's the 5X that had been stated previously. There's nothing in the documentation about it.

Please let me know if it has rainbows.

Well, that's a personal thing. If I try, I can make myself see rainbows in most projectors. In normal viewing I don't see any, but I don't with any 4X or faster wheel either.

Originally posted by MikeSRC
I would assume it's the 5X that had been stated previously. There's nothing in the documentation about it.



Is there any 'unusual' setup option? That could hide a CW speed control if there really is one.

I don't see anything out of the ordinary that would point to the color wheel. It does have quite a few adjustments available though like the ICC R,G,B,Y,W color settings mentioned earlier in th BenQ brochure. Also, 4 preset and 2 user color temp settings. Also, RGB gain, offset and gamma settings.

I wish they'd give you the actual color temps though rather than stuff like Native, Warm, Cool and Middle. I can check it with OpticOne later though. Also, lens shift would have been nice since there's no offset. It's great for low ceilings but this unit's definitely a wall hanger in my theater room. ;)

Very nice that it has user RGB gain/offset and gamma settings.

Any clue on if BenQ's SenseEye technology is included? If so any idea what it does?

I wish I just had a manual to read... Must learn patience. I think I'll take up studying Zen meditation just until Friday. At least I think that's what they were doing with the swords in Kill Bill.

BenQ's SensEye technology replaces the Faroudja scaling and deinterlacing of the Toshiba. BenQ didn't feel like paying Faroudja so they developed their own solution.

Does the MT700 have Faroudja scaling? I've read that it has an "O+ scaler", whatever that is.

In your quick look at HDTV, did the scaling look good from 1080i->720p? (I know, I know: not another question!).

It's using the 23XX chip which includes scaling, so I don't see why they'd use something else, but who knows. HBO HD looked pretty good scaled last night. Wish I still had a 7205 around to compare. :(

I wish I just had a manual to read...

Attached is a zipped JPG of the menu structure to give you something to look at in the meantime.

Actually I should get started on my mount. What size/how many screws does it need?

Originally posted by mooney
Bowerboy

Try Carada screens good quality and great price.

carada.com

Well after after exchanging several emails with Dave G from Carada, I pulled the trigger on the Brilliant White 102. Dave said I could have it as early as Friday. I just hope the 700 arrives this week also.

PS. I do still need to order a ceiling mount.

Mike, does the case look similar to the MT500? what mount do you think will work? One of the generic Chief mounts?

The case is larger than the MT500. It uses 4 screws that appear to be 6 mm. Of course, they don't tell you what they are in the manual because they don't want you to mount it yourself.

Originally posted by MikeSRC

I wish they'd give you the actual color temps though rather than stuff like Native, Warm, Cool and Middle. I can check it with OpticOne later though.

Going by the BenQ PE8700 color temps, I bet it goes at follows:

Warm - 5700K
Middle - 6500K
Cool - 9300K

Mike - If you can, try to post the color gamut charts (whichever flavor you are using), lumen counts and the before and after contrast numbers for the little Toshiba. This may be a new toy if it performs reasonably well.

Later,
Bill

MikeSRC

any idea if the mt700 supports 48hz native like the 7205/mt800?

Well I got the MT 700 running. Unfortunately my DVI to HDMI adapter doesn't come till tomorrow- so all impression are via component 720P from the V880. (the component output is softer looking (blurry) compared to the DVI out.

First off, I am coming from the Z2- which luckily I have on hand for one more night before it gets shipped to its new owner.

I was able to drive the Z2 via DVI and the 700 via component at the same time and project both next to each other. All impression were on a gray goo screen with variable masking.


The first thing I noticed when firing up the MT700 was rainbows and eye strain. I had a Dell 3200 for 5 months before getting the Z2 and learned not to see rainbows by keeping my eyes fairly still.

But having used an LCD for 15 months, going back to DLP was quite a shock. By the end of the night however I seem to be adjusting to it.

One of the things I had been doing to get better black levels from the Z2 was to pump the contrast of the V880- this had the desired effect, but at the expense of seriously crushing black levels and loosing detail. (BTW I am a video editor by profession- working on TV shows, commercials, etc, so I am used to looking at high end monitors and manipulating the look of footage all the time, and I often crush blacks or blow out whites for aesthetic effect)

Anyway with the MT700, the V880 contrast setting was no longer desirable- I adjusted the brightness and contrast to get the full detail from whites and blacks without blowing anything out or going too far and making it murky.

Incidentally I found the brightness and contrast on the MT700 to have more effect than on the Z2 (which I found to have a very subtle effect)

The 700 in default mode mode (but mid temp) didn't have as deep a blacks as I thought, even on my gray screen. The picture did look good though.

I then did a split screen with the z2 and MT 700 projecting at the same time. This was where I saw some real surprises. First the Z2 running on DVI had alot more detail than the COmponent driven 700. (a function of the V880 output) so I know the 700 via DVI will look outstanding.

On bright scenes with lots of contrast, the Z2 really held its own. (this is with the 700 now flipped into high lamp mode)

However- as expected it was the darker scenes where the 700 really showed the differences. Hopefully you'll see an attached shot demonstrating the black levels of both- I took many pics- but they didn't seem to show what it looked like in person even though I adjusted the still cameras LCD screen to match what my eye was seeing- so much for screen shots having much validity ( the one I attach will be a good example though)

The Z2 even with almost 1200 hours did seem just as bright though which is odd.

Things like the star field in Star Wars showed the clear dominance of the 700. Again I could have gotten the Z2 to have better blacks, but lots of detail would be thrown away to achieve the effect.

The Java the Hut scene also showed lots middle exposure shots where the black levels of the MT700 were really nice. This was all in standard mode with no bright or contrast added. Also the whites of the Z2 seemed to blown out in the very top highlights, while the 700 held them just fine. It really does have great dynamic range.

Then I shut off the Z2 and played with some of the contrast and theater modes. At first the dynamic mode looked like it was crushing blacks too much, but adding 3 points of bright and contrast to the Dynamic mode took care of this, and while it might not be technically accurate, the effect was outstanding without loosing detail.

This is often my technique for setting up each movie based on the transfer- try not to loose much (if any) detail in the whites and blacks, and get a rich looking image.

I'll report more tomorrow when run via HDMI.

Here is an example of the black levels- on the left is the MT700 on the right is the Z2. The 700's black level are not quite as black as in this shot- (at least on my samsunf LCD monitor- but it gives you some idea.

another- - this one adjust to give an idea of what I saw in person

2

One more thing- I imagine I should be running in Through mode which the manual says is pixel mapping. But the manual also says for anamorphic titles- use the full mode. In Through mode it doesnt quite fill the screen like it does in the Full mode- this seems almost like what is happening with the pre fixed HS51- Mike- any comments? Also which picture mode mode (standard, theater, etc) do you think is the best to run it in?

Some other thoughts before I catch some sleep- The internal scaler seems excellent- even ratty old analog cable tv via s-video looks great- I even watched something letterboxed on cable and zoomed up to fill the screen- sure there is some noise but it's very watchable, and looks much better than the Z2.

I also love the picture in/out picture mode. I have been waiting for a projector with this feature since it makes sense on a such a large screen that you can watch multiple sources- Can't wait to get my mac and PC hooked up.


I also just discovered the Dynamic mode has the color temp set to high. Bringing it back to med (6500) looks much better.

I also really like the remote- every button is backlit, there is direct access to each input- a brightnes, contrast and color button- very well thought out - especially for a product at this price level.

BTW I am watching on a 70" wide screen from a 10 foot viewing distance.

emailists,

Many thanks for taking the time to share your initial impressions. Enjoy the new projector.

Many thanks for taking the time to share your initial impressions. Enjoy the new projector.

Ditto on that one emailists. I've been chomping at the bit since late December to pull the trigger on the Sharp 2k. Since January, I've been waiting for the MT700. Thank you for jumping on this and providing the feedback, especially the screenshots.

many thanx emailists !
just a question abt the build: any light leakage? "halo" like the Z2000 ? and the noise ?

(yea I'm very keen on this. I like short throw PJs)

Thanks for your thoughts. I have to run right now, but I'll be back later with some calibration info. I will say that the MT700 greyscale is very good right out of the box. Very little adjusting necessary. Also, I did confirm that the mounting screws are 6 mm (M6).

thank you both, will be watching this thread for more of your impressions

Can you please comment on SDE with the MT700?

Thanks
Steve

DLP projectors don't suffer from SDE because of the mirrors producing the image. Only LCD projectors have that problem.

Originally posted by stephenfrancis
Can you please comment on SDE with the MT700?

Thanks
Steve

Pretty much a non-issue. You would either need a very big screen or be sitting very close.

Originally posted by FiveMillionWays
DLP projectors don't suffer from SDE because of the mirrors producing the image. Only LCD projectors have that problem.

SDE is definitely less on a DLP, but it's still there. I personally can see SDE on 720p DLP's from about 1.2x screen width on bright white areas (such as credits). My vision is 20/15 so I may be a little more sensitive then most.

Originally posted by FiveMillionWays
DLP projectors don't suffer from SDE because of the mirrors producing the image. Only LCD projectors have that problem.

SDE is definitely less on a DLP, but it's still there. I personally can see SDE on 720p DLP's from about 1.2x screen width on bright white areas (such as credits). My vision is 20/15 so I may be a little more sensitive then most.

To moderater. Sorry for the double post, please delete.

Originally posted by MikeSRC
It's using the 23XX chip which includes scaling, so I don't see why they'd use something else, but who knows. HBO HD looked pretty good scaled last night. Wish I still had a 7205 around to compare. :(

Darn...that would've been great, because it's gonna come down to either the MT7700 or the SP7205 for me. Waiting on impressions with brightness, contrast and overall picture detail especially with DVDs :)

Originally posted by Boweryboy
Well after after exchanging several emails with Dave G from Carada, I pulled the trigger on the Brilliant White 102. Dave said I could have it as early as Friday. I just hope the 700 arrives this week also.

PLEASE keep us updated on how the picture quality looks when coupled with a Carada screen. That is the screen I am seriously considering pairing with either the MT7700 or the SP7205...

I've gotten my MT700 tracking number and now just have to wait for 2nd day air. Sigh. On Friday or Saturday expect some impressions vs. the 4805.

I'll also be trying out 1:1 mapping on my HTPC. At some point I'll give 48hz a shot. Does anyone have a good test scene to look for improvements in judder?

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
I've gotten my MT700 tracking number and now just have to wait for 2nd day air. Sigh. On Friday or Saturday expect some impressions vs. the 4805.

I'll also be trying out 1:1 mapping on my HTPC. At some point I'll give 48hz a shot. Does anyone have a good test scene to look for improvements in judder?

if your hooking up your htpc download the judder test software

I've had a chance to spend an entire evening looking at the MT700 hooked up the momitsu v880 via DVI/HDMI. First what I noticed was that the Full and Through settings were exactly the same, which is good. Via component, the full filled the screen but looked soft, and the Through (pixel mapping) looked correct and sharper, but it was reduced in size, similar to what the HS51 does in 720 HDMI before the fix. I think this is a real problem for component video users. HDMI is correct and looks great. I wonder what is happening in component?

I made all observations in high lamp mode, since I usually like to run projectors in high, and this looked best. As mentioned I have a Gray Goo screen with variable masking. I don't currently have an HD source. I returned my OTA HD tuner since I couldn't consitently get stations.

With the V880 via HDMI I really felt like I was looking at a very neutral device. It almost didn't impress me with it's picture. It just seemed accurate to the source and very filmic. And for a display device (or loudspeakers for that matter) that is a very high compliment.


The great dynamic range made me want to try using this as video monitor for some of the TV shows, and video's I edit. I am able to see so many gradations of black and the color on mid (6500) looks accurate.

It's not as punchy looking as a CRT picture tube of course, but it seems very linear and seems to show whatever is in the signal.

Watching Carnivale and Deadwood on a slightly noisey analog cable feed via s-video looked quite good, and zoomed up to full screen.

Then I played with the Faroudja menu. This is incredible processing for cleaning up such signals. The Noise slider truly pulled noise out without affecting all of the detail. The True Color(?) slider, however actually restored the detail lost from cleaning up the noise, and only introducing a small amount of it;s own. I had each up 2-3 points, and it really made ratty old cable look fantastic.

Watching pillarbox 4x3, I didn't get up to slide my masking system in, and the outside pillars looked very dark on my screen. Actually not much brighter than the felt covered 4" masks. That was surprising.

There is some dither noise at times in dark areas if you look closely, even from 10 feet. But you have to be within a foot of the 70" wide screen to see any screen door. The lack of VB that was present on my Z2 is quite welcome, and I find the rainbows to be quite tolerable after two nights. I do find myself looking away from the screen every once in a while to give my eyes a rest. That really is once positive to LCD's I may miss.

Incidentally, I accidentally unplugged the AC from the projector due to a temporary setup. I figured "great, I just took 100 hours off my bulb." I plugged the unit right back in, and to my delight, the fan kicked in to complete the shut off sequence. Kudos to Toshiba for an intelligent design.

The unit is very quiet, and there sems to be no light spill at all.

I've seen quite a few mid range projector setups recently, the sharp 11k , and even recently the Qualia 004. Except for the qualia, I really can't remember seeing a better setup than what I'm seeing in my living right now- (though I think none of the other setups I saw were via DVI or HDMI to be fair)

I can't see anyone being dissapointed in this projector at this price point, or even quite a bit higher.

There are a few times in low contrast scenes I wish it had a liittle deeper black level, so I think even with this projector, a high contrast screen may still be in order for black level freaks like myself.

But all in all I think anyone looking for a projector in this price range will be quite happy buying it, even sight unseen. It's that good.

can someone tell me if firmware is user updatable?

i'm also looking for a screen size calculator for this proj., i can mount 13 or maybe 12 feet from screen.

i was amazed when i googled street prices on the MT700, this could be a very popular projector at that price.

emailists,

Excellent writeup, especially considering the late hours!

BTW, I think it's actually BenQ the ones who deserve credit for intelligent design. ;)

Speaking of which, is the PE8700 among the projectors you've seen? If so, how would the MT700 compare against it?

emailists or MikeSRC,

When you guys have a moment... can you check if it accepts 480i over HDMI?

I've seen the 8700, but without a side-by-side, properly set up comparison to the MT700, it's hard to say which is better. I've had a 7205 in my home briefly and other than the obvious increased brightness of the 7205, I can't say which is better.

To add a few things, the medium color temperature is the closest to 65K, but it's still high (closer to 70K). The other settings aren't even in the ballpark. Primaries (RGB) are nearly right on the mark straight out of the box. Secondaries looked good too, with cyan the furthest off the mark.

There's something strange about the default brightness and contrast adjustments levels. I have to check into this further, but I believe the MT700 has a very small range of adjustment for brightness and contrast, which allows for fine adjustment, but may cause some surprise initially as you may need to change your DVD player from its default settings. As a result, blacks were crushed in the default setup, with everything the same below 20 IRE.

HD looked great either through component or HDMI, with an edge to the digital connection. Pixel cropping at 720p was non-existant through the HDMI input.

After calibration, perceived black levels do not seem as deep as my 4805, but I haven't compared the two with the ND2 filter removed from the 4805. For those using the TrueLife enhancement, increasing the level more than a click or two can add edge enhancement to the image.

I'll have more info and some comparisons with the 4805 and an H31 in the near future.

emailists & MikeSRC..thanks for the great feedback. I wonder how the MT700 compares with the Sharp XV-Z2000. It would be nice to see a shoot out of these two PJs .

So, I've had an InFocus LP-350 (once the darling of these forums) for the last 4 or so years and I think it may finally be time to upgrade.

Unfortunately, no one talks about the 350 anymore and I really have no idea how it compares to modern PJs like the MT-700. Can I expect a noticeable difference in clarity, contrast, brightness, artifacts? I've been very happy with my LP-350 for a long time and it has just never seemed like I'd be getting anything significantly better within my price range... i.e. under $3500 MSRP :)

emailists,

Based on your RBE impression, it seemed that the wheel is 4X, not 5X. I saw lots of RBE w/ the Benq 6200 at 2X, but rarely with the 5X PE8700+. My old panny ae100 LCD has no RBE, but got VB.

According to the Toshiba pdf, it's 4X. Can anyone else verify if it's user adjustable to 5X?

Thanks.

lenny

There's no adjustment for the color wheel speed that I've found. The PDF is not for the U.S. version, so we can't be sure it's the same, although it's likely that it is 4X. I seldom see rainbows (without trying to) on any projector over 3X anyway. YMMV

I can't believe the prices I froogled - only moderately more than the Pan 700. Lots of the hits say "6-segment 5X color wheel" FWIW.

Also, how high does the throw ratio go? I get 1.32:1 for the low end from the numbers previously given.

Thanks

MikeSRC, I look forward to your comparisons with the 4805 and an H31 in the near future. A shootout with the Sharp 2000 would be great.

5x confirmed on an email sent by Toshiba Germany.

Originally posted by noah katz
Also, how high does the throw ratio go? I get 1.32:1 for the low end from the numbers previously given.

Thanks

1.78:1 calculated from my previous post.

Originally posted by noah katz
I can't believe the prices I froogled - only moderately more than the Pan 700.



I know we aren't allowed to discuss actual pricing...but from what I see the premium is 50% more than the panny (after rebate.)

Originally posted by broadwayblue
I know we aren't allowed to discuss actual pricing...but from what I see the premium is 50% more than the panny (after rebate.)

i google 33% more than lowest pan700 AR

let the 720p DLP revolution begin!

also, there is a price thread on fatwallet.com for MT700

Let's not get this thread closed by the mods...

I'm as guilty of wanting to discuss pricing since this DLP projector is breaking a new price barrier for 720P DLP.

Say two Hail Marys and sin no more, my son. ;)

it seems the pipeline is full, many vendors have these in stock!

But still nothing in Europe...

In the meantime, here is the projection distances table:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/mayorgrubert/MT700-distances.jpg

Originally posted by corba
it seems the pipeline is full, many vendors have these in stock!

Don't believe everything you read. Many of them are using the same "stock", so when one is gone, it's gone for all of them.

Does it match its claim that it is 1000 ansi lumin output is accurate or not?

I haven't checked the output yet, but that's probably accurate in high power mode. Low power is probably 700-800. It's not a light cannon like some of the InFocus projectors.

Compared to what I've heard about the panny 700 it's very bright.

Mike can you post your suggestions for the best settings to use?

Also what do you think is going with with component in and pixel mapping shrinking the image?

Originally posted by MikeSRC
I've seen the 8700, but without a side-by-side, properly set up comparison to the MT700, it's hard to say which is better. I've had a 7205 in my home briefly and other than the obvious increased brightness of the 7205, I can't say which is better.

To add a few things, the medium color temperature is the closest to 65K, but it's still high (closer to 70K). The other settings aren't even in the ballpark. Primaries (RGB) are nearly right on the mark straight out of the box. Secondaries looked good too, with cyan the furthest off the mark.

There's something strange about the default brightness and contrast adjustments levels. I have to check into this further, but I believe the MT700 has a very small range of adjustment for brightness and contrast, which allows for fine adjustment, but may cause some surprise initially as you may need to change your DVD player from its default settings. As a result, blacks were crushed in the default setup, with everything the same below 20 IRE.

HD looked great either through component or HDMI, with an edge to the digital connection. Pixel cropping at 720p was non-existant through the HDMI input.

After calibration, perceived black levels do not seem as deep as my 4805, but I haven't compared the two with the ND2 filter removed from the 4805. For those using the TrueLife enhancement, increasing the level more than a click or two can add edge enhancement to the image.

I'll have more info and some comparisons with the 4805 and an H31 in the near future.

Mike

It sounds like you were able to calibrate it with a proper calibration tool. If so could you give us more info on post calibrated stats such as brightness and contrast. Also a little more info on the actual greyscale achieved and what it took to get it there.

Thanx in advance

Greg

Grubert,

The distance table you posted on the MT-700 includes a diagram indicating the PJ has "height offset". Any idea as to what degree? Am puzzled by the "0/0" in the chart.

Originally posted by Jeffcom
Grubert,

The distance table you posted on the MT-700 includes a diagram indicating the PJ has "height offset". Any idea as to what degree? Am puzzled by the "0/0" in the chart.

I think it means the offset is 0, i.e. no offset at all. The lens center is the top edge of the picture

That's correct. There is no offset. The chart shown above is not from the U.S. manual. In the U.S. manual, no offset is shown in the installation picture, nor are there columns in the table for it.

This is the first PJ I have looked at that has neither offset or lens shift.

The top viewing surface of my fixed screen will need to be 19" below the 7'9" ceiling due to a window which I prefer not to cover. The bottom of screen would be about 12" from the floor or roughly 120" diag.

Had ceiling mount in mind, but looks like center of PJ lens will need to be 19" below ceiling. Are there any settings available on the MT-700 so I can bring PJ closer to the ceiling w/out affecting PQ? Any other ideas? If table mount 12" off the floor?

Wall mount not an option as room is 22' deep.

Thanks,

Originally posted by c722
I think it means the offset is 0, i.e. no offset at all. The lens center is the top edge of the picture

Does no offset mean that regardless of throw distance the lens center must ALWAYS be at the top edge (or bottom edge if table mounting) of the screen?

Originally posted by Jeffcom
Are there any settings available on the MT-700 so I can bring PJ closer to the ceiling w/out affecting PQ? Any other ideas? If table mount 12" off the floor?


The only other option for ceiling mounting is tilting the projector and using keystone. You could always tilt up the bottom of the screen slightly to avoid or minimize the use of keystoning.

Table mount at 12'' would work as well if you have the spot for it.

Originally posted by KramerTC
Does no offset mean that regardless of throw distance the lens center must ALWAYS be at the top edge (or bottom edge if table mounting) of the screen?

Yes sir.

Originally posted by MikeSRC
Yes sir.

does this mean it MUST be mounted upside down if positioned near ceiling?

i was considering putting it on a shelf near ceiling....

Originally posted by corba
does this mean it MUST be mounted upside down if positioned near ceiling?


Yes sir, but that's the case with most projectors.

i was considering putting it on a shelf near ceiling....
I think you should still be able to do this. You just have to make rubber "feet" for the top of the projector to allow adequate airflow, I would think. I know I've seen pictures of people's setups where they did that.

Somebody else can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, of course. :)

Originally posted by emailists
Mike can you post your suggestions for the best settings to use?

Sure, but after this weekend when I'm done checking out everything.

Also what do you think is going with with component in and pixel mapping shrinking the image?

The "Through" setting does not do any scaling, so with an analog input, you just get the unscaled image in the center of the screen since it can't pixel map the analog input. With DVI, it's able to map the digital input and fill the screen without scaling.

Originally posted by MikeSRC
Yes sir.

Thanks Mike. I think this actually makes it easier for a front projector newbie to set things up.

Originally posted by Jeffcom
Had ceiling mount in mind, but looks like center of PJ lens will need to be 19" below ceiling. Are there any settings available on the MT-700 so I can bring PJ closer to the ceiling w/out affecting PQ? Any other ideas? If table mount 12" off the floor?
[/B]

You can tilt the projector very slightly to get some "offset". If you do it too much you'll get an obvious trapezoid and need keystoning. However a slight bit is not noticeable. Even a little more can get lost in the black matte of the screen. I don't know that you'd get the full 19" you want, but it should at least give you a bit of it.

For reference doing this I got about the image ~5" higher on my floor mounted 4805 with no noticeable trapezoid distortion. This was with an 8.5' throw.

You can also go table floor mount. Either inside or underneath a coffee table or couch/futon might work depending on your layout.

Originally posted by corba
i was considering putting it on a shelf near ceiling.... [/B]

You can also just drill holes in the shelf matching the mount screws of the pj. Stick a few 6mm bolts through and you've got a solid $15 mount.

I'm building a hushbox on top of a shelf. The the MT700 will be screwed to the top.


BTW: My MT700 = On FedEx vehicle for delivery

Sadly my FedEx guy tends to deliver to my house at ~6-7pm...

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
I'm building a hushbox on top of a shelf. The the MT700 will be screwed to the top.


I was thinking of doing the same thing, as I'd have to hang the projector down 3 feet from a 10' ceiling otherwise. I'm working on a way to provide some adjustibility in the design. What are you planning to use for the box and shelf?

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
BTW: My MT700 = On FedEx vehicle for delivery

Sadly my FedEx guy tends to deliver to my house at ~6-7pm...

Express usually delivers earlier. I'd check right now. ;)

Thank you all for your replies. I just checked on the Z2000 for comparison, a PJ costing hundreds more and note no lens shift and really no usable offset. So this is not unusual for PJ in this price range.

Mike, please check your manual. Does it have any details on ceiling mount extensions as I would need to have the PJ somewhere between 18"-24" from ceiling. Am interested in the Toshiba mount or is an aftermarket like the Chief a better option?

MikeSRC - You were dead-on on the early delivery. I think I normally get the Fed-Ex Saver ground which is why I get the early evening delivery. As I was posting that my wife was answering the door. BTW, thanks for double-boxing this.

First impressions: this is the only projector housing (including PLV-Z1, 4805, DT-300, XV-12000/10000) I've seen that I actually thought looked cool. I really like the white color, in fact I wish it was all white - it really blends in, while still looking techy and modern.

The remote looks like it has discrete buttons for everything: source, image settings, and wide/zoom modes. This is something that is missing on even some high-end pjs (H77 comes to mind), so I'm very happy it was included here. I was prepared to put up with no discrete codes , but this will make things much easier, especially for the wife.

Not that she cares. After I put this up on the shelf I asked her if she wanted to come up to the theater room and see smoothness. She came up and didn't have any idea what changed. When I pointed it out she said, "I thought you meant you'd cleaned the room up." Sigh.

Sadly I have relatives visiting tomorrow so I have to put in the appearance of getting the house ready. I will sneak away to hook this up and post impressions as soon as I can, but will likely need to wait until later tonight.

Awesome!

[i]What are you planning to use for the box and shelf?

I'm just using 24"x15"x5/8" pine planks from Home Depot. They do the cuts so I don't even have to worry about chopping off a hand or foot. I have it hung from the ceiling (bonus room, sloped ceiling) by chains now to adjust. Once I have the pj and screen aligned I'll screw the back of the shelf into the ceiling for added stability.

I also may eventually add foam insulation and some sort of upwards pointing fan baffle with exterior computer fans to reduce noise. The pj is roughly 2' above my head so sound may bug me a little.

BTW, for anyone else building a hushbox the pj exhausts from the front and has a single intake taking up most of the right side.

First impressions: this is the only projector housing (including PLV-Z1, 4805, DT-300, XV-12000/10000) I've seen that I actually thought looked cool. I really like the white color, in fact I wish it was all white - it really blends in, while still looking techy and modern.
This is a funny comment to me, as it shows how different people's perspectives can be. (I'm not criticizing at all, just saying it's an interesting difference.)

I am very interested in this projector when I'm ready to buy one (probably 30-60 days from now), but one of the things I didn't like was the look of the projector. It's just too... WHITE. :p We have a dedicated theater room that is going to have a black ceiling and dark grey walls. I think this projector will just stick out like a sore thumb in that room - to the point that I've been trying to figure out a way to hide it without adversely affecting heat dissipation if I decide it's a problem. I haven't seen it in person, but the pictures I've seen just looked very blocky and industrial-looking.

Sadly I have relatives visiting tomorrow so I have to put in the appearance of getting the house ready. I will sneak away to hook this up and post impressions as soon as I can, but will likely need to wait until later tonight.
Somebody's gonna be sleepy when relatives come to visit... :D

is there some way to monitor temps of the mt700?

Originally posted by Jeffcom
I would need to have the PJ somewhere between 18"-24" from ceiling.

I think it's obvious that I subscribe to the Home Depot school of home theater accessories. You can also consider a steel pipe solution. Get two flanges and the length off threaded steel pipe you need. Get a board cut to 15" by 12" (they have pre-painted white :)). Screw the pj to the board with 6mm bolts. Screw the one flange to board, one flange to the ceiling, and the pipe in between.

I've built this in reverse on the floor for a mount for my LCD monitor arm. My wife really loves my decorating.

BTW, here's a picture of what I'm talking about for a flange (http://24.237.160.4/files/Astronomy/eyepieces/Burgess200A/plastic_pipe_flange.gif) (at least I think that's what it's called).

Given how small this thing is, I wonder if one could find a low power scissor lift type of mount that would raise/lower it an appropriate amount (~2' max, I would think) when in use? I've seen similar for TVs, but those are way to expensive for such a light load as this.

I'm curious how much this will cost: http://www.displaydevices.com/products/projectorlifts/usd-100/index.html

Mike - thanks for leading the pack on this!

Later,
Bill

[i] It's just too... WHITE. :p

From a practical standpoint you're absolutely right - black would be far better if you have control of the wall paint color. Sadly I don't. My wife puts up with a lot of crap, but black/dark walls is a no no. I have been slowly putting up dark velvet curtains and so far she hasn't complained - muhaha.

A lot of my reaction may be that I've been wanting an HD2+ pj for so long and finally have it in my hands. However I do think it really looks better in person then the pictures I've seen.

An easy way to darken it up would be this dark stick on film I've seen (not glue it just peels off). This stuff turns white to fairly black. You could cut all the holes you want in it for venting and the lens. My wife used it on the microwave control panel when she decided she wanted a black microwave instead of a white one. If you're interested I can find out what it's called and where she got it.

I know of this system, the PJ disappears into the ceiling, motorized/remote control, but would cost about as much as the PJ itself. Anyone heard of a DIY setup?

Thanks FlyingGimp for your suggestion. Will consider along with other options. Yours most certainly will work fine.

FlyingGimp: I would be interested in whatever that film is. I don't want a big white blister in my nice light-controlled room.

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
I'm just using 24"x15"x5/8" pine planks from Home Depot. They do the cuts so I don't even have to worry about chopping off a hand or foot. I have it hung from the ceiling (bonus room, sloped ceiling) by chains now to adjust. Once I have the pj and screen aligned I'll screw the back of the shelf into the ceiling for added stability.


I've currently got a TV wall mount that I'm hanging a 4805 from, but it's too high for the MT700 and I don't want to hang the projector down from it. I was thinking of just moving this mount down, but I'm thinking that a nice shelf (and possibly a box) would look better. Maybe I'll just hang it from the shelf with some longer bolts and use them to adjust for height and angle like I currently do (see attachment).

The black film is static cling car window tint. My wife thinks she probably got it at Target. Two layers of it would probably make the pj pretty much total black.

Can anyone check to see if this projector has a problem displaying pal dvd's?

Well I think I need a change of underwear. Maybe it would be easier to just start wearing brown boxers.

Hooked this up to my HTPC and all I got was a green screen. The pj detected the proper resolution (displayed in the lower right of the screen), but all I got was green. This is apparently a symptom that occurs when HDMI doesn't sync up. 1280x720, 800x600, everything did the same thing. I was fairly convinced I'd be stuck with a restocking fee.

As a last gasp I downloaded the latest drivers for my Nvidia vanilla 6800. They include expanded HDTV support. It includes HDTV standard 1280x720 (@59.94hz). This did the trick.

At first blush the screen looks 1:1 mapped. I need to track down a 1:1 mapping test screen to verify 100%.

Note there still is a problem here. With straight connection via 6800 DVI -> MT700 HDMI on boot up, I get no signal from the pj. When I then swap the DVI connection to my LCD monitor I also get no signal. To get this to work I've got to boot with my LCD monitor connected and then swap cables to the pj. This is no big deal for me because I only have one DVI output so I have to swap cables back and forth anyway.

Flipping to other resolutions (like 1280x768) with the pj connected causes the 6800 to lock up my PC hard.

As a side note the new Nvidia drivers also seem to have a lot of Powerstrip-like timing functionality.

I have almost 30 hours on my Mt700 already and decided to see what it would look like on a white screen as opposed to my grey goo screen.

I covered about 1/3rd the screen with a piece of unpainted white gatorboard. The screen itself is actually painted gatorboard.

What I saw was similar to comparisons of white vs grey with my Z2.

Even the Mt700, with its great black levels, still needs a grey screen in my estimation. Now sure I am giving up some color accuracy, and some midrange punch that I saw with the white screen.

But the foundation of the image, the blacks, simply looked so much more realistic with the goo screen. (note I have digital grey, not the light grey version)

On the white screen the blacks didn;'t seem to even have as much detail in some shots.

I think anyone with this projector owes it to themselves to see it on something like a goo screen.

I;m not sure if even something like the grey daylite would even give the same effect, since the goo has a grey base and a reflective coating.

I'd of course love to see the MT700 on a Firehawk or greyhawk.

Incidentally I rented a disk with a THX optomizer on it and went through the tests. Turns out I had the unit's black and white levels already set perfectly even though I did it by eye The default setting of standard and cinema 1 and 2 all had much to high a black level, and dynamic crushed the blacks way to much.

Emailists - Would you mind getting a sample of Da-Lite's HCMW and comparing it to your goo screen? You can email Da-Lite at info@da-lite.com - they'll send you 2'x2' sample if you ask for it.

I think I'm going to buy a 70"x70" Model B HCMW because it's dirt cheap and I have my hushbox to build. However I am very curious how the HCMW compares to a darker gray screen. I'm always looking for a new project, so maybe a goo screen will be in my future.

Last night I compared a HCMW sample to my white screen. Blacks improved a good bit, and the whites looked very similar. Since I have a mostly white room (well I admit it, a *very* light pink actually) I think the blacks will improve a bit more with the full screen being gray. I was pretty happy with the color accuracy as well. Since I'm shooting on such a small screen I think, for me, gray is the way to go.

More initial impressions:

I moved from a ~58" wide screen to a 70" wide screen. Viewing distance moved from ~1.9 screen width to ~1.5 screen width. At the moment I'm comparing the 4805 to the MT700 by memory. At some point I may hook up both to compare. It was odd not to have to slightly defocus (lifetime low-res pj owner: PLV-Z1 then 4805).

Overall the MT700 with a new bulb on low lamp looked brighter than my 4805 low lamp with 150 hours. Blacks seems commeasurably slightly worse (since an overall brighter image brightens the blacks as well). I did notice more temporal dithering noise, though this is mostly visible at closer than my viewing distance. Some of this is due to the larger screen size. I'll have to reduce the screen size down to get a better comparison here. I also noticed rainbows slightly more, though not to a bothersome extent. I'm sure the screen size (eyes moving around) and brightness increase factored in here.

I played a couple games of Xbox Burnout 3 and it looked good. Slightly more aliasing compared to the 4805, but within what I'd expect from moving to a larger screen. I still need to throw in some 720p games.

HD looked pretty good. I did have one issue using the HDTivo via component: A 1080i source converted to 720p by the Tivo caused the pj to flash up it's 720p signal detected message quite often during viewing. I still need to see whether this happens with native 720p and whether it occurs over hdmi from the Tivo. I also need to remove my component switcher from the video chain.

I think I still have some adjustments to do on the HTPC side. The Nvidia supplied 720p brightened my LCD up significantly - to the point where the desktop look white-side crushed. I'll try out powerstrip to see if that helps and also play around with timings. Color was still okay - just not perfect. Resolution wise DVDs looked quite good with ffdshow (Lanczos 2: 1280x720, denoise3d). I definitely noticed significantly less aliasing in my reference film: SpongeBob Squarepants (just kidding, that happened to be in the HTPC).

More to come, though with relatives in town, my tweaking will be limited for the next week.

We should turn this into the official thread.

FG - htpc test pattern here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5331846#post5331846

set it to your desktop image

Snuck away for a bit more tweaking.

I watched HBO HD Carnivale last night with the wife. When she would glance at her laptop I'd mess with settings. Then she'd look up at the OSD and give me a dirty look. Something wasn't quite right with the image. I just wasn't stunned at the PQ improvement I thought I would be getting by going to 720p.

One problem I had noticed in my couple minutes pre-wife was that the HDNet test pattern had the "10" black number clipped. I could pump the brightness up, turning the blacks to medium gray, and the "10" wouldn't show. I set it as a best guess.

Turns out this was the problem. Over component I can't see the blackest blacks. When I switched to HDMI I can see the "10" on the test pattern. This is also completely obvious in real pictures. I paused a daylight scene of Deadwood with a guy in a dark suit. Over Component (calibrated as best I can) I can't see the details in his suit, it's just a black mass - even if I pump the brightness up the detail is just not there. When I switched to HDMI and looked at the exact same frame (swicth image settings to previously HDMI calibrated), I can see buttons/folds in the cloth, etc.

I use Bluejeans component cables, which I believe are decent. I also have an Inday component switcher. I don't think either of these is the culprit since this problem did not show up on the 4805's component input.

In sum, at least with an HDTivo, HDMI appears to be far superior to component. The PQ looks very good on HBO HD. Now I think the only problem I'm slightly bothered with are MPEG compression artifacts. I see them move around only when I advance frames. I do see DLP green worms, but only when much closer than my normal viewing distance,

On the 720p from HDTivo displaying the 720p sync message, this seems to go away when you have the HDTivo set to 720p and then switch the pj input to component. The problem seems to occur when I switch to component and then change the Tivo to 720p. So far I've not seen this problem at all on HDMI.

Thanks for the 1:1 test image. It definitely is mapping 1:1. I can see the individual pixels of the checkerboard when I get close enough. This is with the Nvidia standard timing for 720p.

FG - thats good news

does the manual list supported input resolutions? im curious about 1920x1080 @24p & 1280 x 720 @48hz

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
Turns out this was the problem. Over component I can't see the blackest blacks. When I switched to HDMI I can see the "10" on the test pattern.

I have noticed this as well. Due to the limited range of adjustment on brightness and contrast, a component feed above 480i crushes blacks if you can't adjust brightness and contrast on the video source. For example, my Panny RP-82 does not have piture controls on 480p, so there's no way to get the deepest blacks (below 20 IRE) with the MT700's adjustments. Switching to 480i solves the problem. However, if I feed the MT700 with a DVD player that has brightness and contrast adjustments available over 480p, I can get the deeper blacks. I'm noticing the same thing with HDTV over component as well. Using HDMI for the HD STB and 480i over component for the DVD player works great.

I'm going to check some other settings that I haven't gotten into yet to see if this can be addressed by the user.

MikeSRC - for me the black over 720p component is worse: It seems to be a hard clip. I have enough play on the MT700 to get the last HDNet test square from black to medium gray, but the slightly blacker "10" that's supposed to be inside never appears. I'm going to play with my HTPC DVI->Component adapter to try another source. Are you able to see blacker than black, full black ramp, etc. on your Bravo D2 via component?

shigaloo - I see no mention of supported formats in the manual. At some point later this week I'll give 1080p@24 and 720p@48/72 a shot. If they sync I'll try out the judder test sw. I'm hopeful that 720p@48 will at least sync.

BTW, for anyone who cares, the timings I am using are:

Horizontal
Front Porch: 112
Back Porch: 216
Sync polarity: +
Sync Widt: 40
Scan Rate: 44.96kHz
Active Pixels: 1280

Vertical
Front porch: 5
Back porch: 20
Sync polarity: +
Sync width: 5
Refresh rate: 59.943
Active pixels: 720


Pixel clock: 74.09MHz

I am using a goo systems grey screen, but am thinking of getting a pull down screen to go over it for daytime veiwing or when I need some lights on. Thinking of the Da-lite High Power. ANy thoughts?

Sorry if I missed it, but are the brightness & contrast options active on the HDMI input? Thanks.

Anyone have a rec on the best mount for this unit? With the zero offset I will need the center of the lens to be about 12"-14" from the ceiling.

This will be my first PJ and I was not sure which one to buy since there are so many to choose from. I have read that the mounts w/ ball joints are more trouble. Is there anything specific to look for when considering the various models?

Anybody knows how to enter this projector's or Toshiba's projectors in general secret menu?

Originally posted by ssj2
Sorry if I missed it, but are the brightness & contrast options active on the HDMI input? Thanks.

Yes, they are.

Originally posted by PaulKahlon
Anyone have a rec on the best mount for this unit? With the zero offset I will need the center of the lens to be about 12"-14" from the ceiling.

It's got four mounting screws that are spread pretty wide, which rules out a number of mounts. The one mentioned at the beginning of this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=516642) looks like it would work well.

Originally posted by MikeSRC
It's got four mounting screws that are spread pretty wide, which rules out a number of mounts. The one mentioned at the beginning of this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=516642) looks like it would work well.

Thanks Mike. That is exactly the mount I had been reading about, but I was unsure about the height limits on it. I checked my room measurements and I want the center of the lens to be 15" from the ceiling so assuming the projector is 4" tall and the lens is in the middle of that height, I need the mount to be 13" from the ceiling which this mount does not do. Obviously I could put a spacer to account for this 1", but I am not sure of the height of the unit so I may need even more length.

Any other mounts that have a slightly longer range w/ the usability of the PDR Mount? Also does anyone happen to know the distance between the center of the lens and the bottom of the unit?

Has anybody had the opportunity to compare the Toshiba MT700 to the Sharp 2000?

or compare to a Benq 8700+ or H77 or mitsubishi hc2000?

Does someone know when the mt700 will be available in Europe, more precisely in Italy?
And about the price? :)

Welcome to AVS, Abel and Yadiel ;)

Catalog price in the EU is €3499. Please note we aren't allowed to discuss street price.

And it should be available before the end of the month.

Thank you Grubert for the fast reply :) excuse me for the question on the price :o

I had time to sit down and compare the 4805 and MT700 side by side for 2 hours. I was feeding from my HTPC, driving each at their native resolution@60hz, ffdshow with gradual denoise and HQ denoise3d at DVD resolution, then scaled to native via Lanczos 2. MY MT700 has ~20 hours on it. My 4805 has ~160 hours. MT 700 was calibrated with OpticOne, 4805 is as is from factory. No ND filters on either. I watched just a few scenes from LOTR: FOTR EE on each. I had to quickly switch cables and reconfigure before viewing each pj. I watched both at ~1.9x screen width. Both were calibrated with with the DVE reverse gray ramp test pattern.

Scenes I used were:

1) Opening battle at Mount Doom
2) Isildur being ambushed/betrayed
3) Gandalf getting Bilbo to leave the ring behind (especially head close-ups)


A) Colors: color seemed very good and very close on both

B) Brightness: Seemed very close between the two. I can't tell by eyball which is brighter - I may hook up both via component splitter to compare half screens against one another. I think my previous thinking the MT700 was brighter was due to watching it at 1.5x.

C) Black level: I set both up to display black and compared the two at the same time. Black level is again indistinguishable, at least in a mostly white room.

D) Temporal dithering: MT700 has more noise on horizontal pans. I'm not sure if this is due to the 5x vs. 4x color wheel or better processing on the 4805. I noticed this on the first pan at Mount Doom with Sauron's army and during invisible Isildur's run through the shrubberies. This didn't really bother me when I watched these scenes without the immediate 4805 compare.

E) Rainbows: I'm not very sensitive to these, at least at 4x+, and not bothered by them when I do see them. For me, these were very rare on both and comparable in frequency.

Overall, if the 4805's throw works in your space and you sit at 2x screen width then it is the choice. I personally want to sit at 1.5x so a 720p DLP is for me.

My local Ultimate may have an XV-Z2000 that I'll try to look at on the horizontal panning. However this will be with a crap DVD player at the store.

Can someone take a picture of the remote?

FlyingGimp,
I am assuming that you used a component connection from the HTPC? Are you able to try DVI? I would be interested in your comments on the horizontal panning noise over DVI.

Also, if possible, I would be really interested in hearing about how a 24Hz multiple input rate does with the judder test. Any general comments about how smooth horizontal panning is on the MT700 at 60Hz would be great as well.

thanks for all of the great info,
jeff

Jeff, I used DVI to both the 4805 and MT700 - sorry I didn't mention this. As far as I know you can only get 1:1 mapping with these pjs via DVI. For the MT700 I'm using a DVI->HDMI cable.

So far I've tried a 1080@24fps setting that the Nvidia drivers had. This one worked on my LCD, but when I switched cables to the MT700, it crashed my PC hard. 720p@72hz failed to sync: got "HDMI(Unsupported)" on the MT700. So far I've not had a chance to search for a 720p@48hz timing. If anyone happens to have a timing for this, I'd be able to do it quicker.

BTW, when I fed 480i via HDMI from my HDTivo I got "HDMI(Unsupported)", so it appears that 480i over HDMI does not work (i.e. no digital DCDi deinterlacing).

My general impressions of horizontal panning on the MT700 is that there is a little extra dithering noise on small details (i.e. Sauron's army from a distance or the shrubbery branches when Isildur runs away). These backgrounds are a little blurry on the 4805 as well, so it's not a night and day difference. I do not remember seeing this on faces in a horizontal pan (i.e. Gandalf lighting the staff in Moria), but I did not view this last night. I'll watch this again with this artifact in mind.

Flying,
thanks for the clarification - I think I read thru a little too quickly at first. seeing 'noise' being described, I just jumped to assuming component. It is a little disappointing to see the 4805 get the edge here - but I guess we are probably not going to find a perfect projector at this price point.

I would really like to be able to get rid of the 3/2 conversion judder that I see from running at 60Hz - I can (sort of) tolerate DLP dither/noise, but choppy pans really remind me that I am not watching film.

definitely would like to see one of these in action. somewhat tempted to just get one.

keep us updated...
-jeff

I've attached some shots of the remote. I think it's all legible.

I intentionally never set up a 48hz frequency on the 4805 because I didn't want to get accustomed to not having judder (it doesn't bother me terribly at the moment). The 4805/7205/7210 throws and offsets are all horrible for my room. I think those are the only pjs that advertise judder-free refresh rates.

Have you messed with any SW solutions like reclock?

I will at some point also try this with a 480i component input to see if that helps the panning noise. I'm also curious how the pj's DCDi/scaler compare to the HTPC.

Setting the Noise Reduction after the 720p resize in ffdshow seemed to noticeably improve still images, but I can't really tell if it helps this problem since my current PC drops frames like crazy with this set.

Emailists - if you have or can rent Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring, perhaps you could comment on these scenes what you see on your setup relative to the Z2. If not, have you seen any horizontal panning noise?

FG - i did a bit of searching, you might find this thread of some help

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4282326#post4282326

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
I will at some point also try this with a 480i component input to see if that helps the panning noise. I'm also curious how the pj's DCDi/scaler compare to the HTPC.


I would expect at least the deinterlacing to be better with the Faroudja. Since I don't use an HTPC, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there's a software-based deinterlacing solution that has per pixel motion adaptive deinterlacing like the Faroudja (and some others) does.

In the thread shigaloo pointed to (thanks shigaloo) there's mention of faroudja doing 48hz. It will be interesting to see if component 480i helps this on the MT700. I'm dying to try but my visiting relatives are staying in my ht/guest room, so no all night tweaking/investigation sessions.

DLPs also have a CWI setting to adjust colorwheel sync. Reports are that this helps on similar H77 problems. These are evidently much more obvious on the H77: clayface, which I have definitely not seen on the MT700 using the cited test scenes in the H77 thread.

MikeSRC - as a dealer any chance of you getting a service manual? I'm definitely interested in purchasing one.

I am close to deciding between the MT700 and the Sharp 2k. Right now, based on what I am seeing (thanks FlyingGimp and emailists), the MT700 has the edge. Unless something drastic happens to change my opinion, it will be the 700.

Since this is my first time with a PJ, I am puzzled why this thing has been out and available for a week now and I still can't find it on the Toshiba site on it's "products" list. I can't believe that they just haven't gotten around to it. Anyone have an explanation why it isn't showing up on the Toshiba site?

Also, I believe it was FlyingGimp who posted the throw distance and offset table. That was extremely helpful.

Chazmo,

Not to throw a monkey wrench in your plans, but if you've got a couple of weeks before you're actually ready to purchase, you may also want to consider the BenQ 7700. It has similar specs to the two you mentioned - although, of course, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
MikeSRC - as a dealer any chance of you getting a service manual? I'm definitely interested in purchasing one.

Don't I wish. AFAIK, you have to be a service center to order one.

What bulb assembly is Toshiba using and have they quoted a life expectancy and MSRP yet?

Chazmo,

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if they really just didn't get to it. Putting up new product/support updates can take a while depending on how their web team prioritizes things. With such a mammoth product line like Toshiba has I wouldn't be surprised that HT projectors are down on the list, particularly if they've only shipped hundreds to the US so far.

It was Grubert who posted the throw table.

MikeSRC,

The Nvidia filters are well regarded for deinterlacing and I believe they do motion adaptive in their Auto mode. It's probably not as good as DCDi. However I've not seen deinterlacing artifacts over a lot of movies on 4805: no combing and no low-res jaggies. I do see deinterlacing artifacts on my Sony HD CRT at 3x screen width quite often (low-res jaggies), so I think I'd notice them on my 4805. Of course most of what I watch has probably been properly flagged as film material. I do look forward to Secrets of Home Theater reviewing the Nvidia filters.

However the piece that makes it night and day and all worthwhile is ffdshow - the clarity is absolutely amazing.

Thanks for the info FG. ;)
The only motion artifacts I've seen have been on DirecTv HD, but I assumed it was their compressed signal. I'll check out LOTR with the Bravo and see if I get the same artifacts.

Regarding the bulb, it's not available yet, but the part number is TLPLMT70. Assuming it's similar to the MT500 bulb, it will be in the $400 neighborhood.

Originally posted by MikeSRC
I have noticed this as well. Due to the limited range of adjustment on brightness and contrast, a component feed above 480i crushes blacks if you can't adjust brightness and contrast on the video source. For example, my Panny RP-82 does not have piture controls on 480p, so there's no way to get the deepest blacks (below 20 IRE) with the MT700's adjustments. Switching to 480i solves the problem. However, if I feed the MT700 with a DVD player that has brightness and contrast adjustments available over 480p, I can get the deeper blacks. I'm noticing the same thing with HDTV over component as well. Using HDMI for the HD STB and 480i over component for the DVD player works great.

I'm going to check some other settings that I haven't gotten into yet to see if this can be addressed by the user.

I remember earlier discussion of BENQ PE8700 have white crush and black crush issues. Looks like MT700, being a brother to BENQ PE7700, still have this issue.

Maybe enter the service mode and see if you can tune down the Y/Pb/Pr gain and tune up Y/Pb/Pr bias to correct the white crush and black crush?

Try PE8700 service mode method to see if MT700 also uses the same way to enter its service mode.

TzungILin thanks for that great tip. I hope it can be done.

It seems to me that the Pioneer DV-59i DVD player would be the perfect match for this projector? HDMI and a lot of adjustability.

Originally posted by MikeSRC


There's something strange about the default brightness and contrast adjustments levels. I have to check into this further, but I believe the MT700 has a very small range of adjustment for brightness and contrast, which allows for fine adjustment, but may cause some surprise initially as you may need to change your DVD player from its default settings. As a result, blacks were crushed in the default setup, with everything the same below 20 IRE.

After calibration, perceived black levels do not seem as deep as my 4805, but I haven't compared the two with the ND2 filter removed from the 4805. For those using the TrueLife enhancement, increasing the level more than a click or two can add edge enhancement to the image.

I'll have more info and some comparisons with the 4805 and an H31 in the near future.

After FlyingGimp's comparison of MT700 to SP4805, MikeSRC, everyone is waiting for your comparison comments!!

Were you able to compare to Z2000 or H77, the under $4k but higher priced 720p models?

Originally posted by MickB
TzungILin thanks for that great tip. I hope it can be done.

It seems to me that the Pioneer DV-59i DVD player would be the perfect match for this projector? HDMI and a lot of adjustability.

MickB,

If the signal is compressed in the video decoding stage, the external DVD source with adjustability won't help either.

The best way, and maybe the fundamental way, is to enter the service mode to correct the crushing issues.

Or stay with its HDMI input, which seems to be correct.

Thanks TzungILin. I had just read the review of the 8700 on hometheaterhifi and saw exactly what you're talking about.

From Steve Smallcombe's review of the 8700:

"The Black Bars test on Avia is very good image for setting the brightness, as it presents two almost black moving bars that are just above or lighter than black. At the proper brightness setting, you should just be able to see the darker of these moving bars, and easily see the lighter one, thus assuring that shadow details are properly distinguished from black. However, using the progressive component input with the 8700 I was unable to see the darkest moving bar at any Brightness setting."

With the MT700 using anything higher than 480i over component, you can't see any bars.

I tried one method I'd found for the 8700 servcie menu, but it didn't work. I'm not sure it was correct though (just Menu-Power-Menu).

Regarding a comaprison, I'm kind of swamped between some beta-testing, the H31 and work, but I'll try to get something up this week. I've only seen the Z2000 and H77 separately and since they all use the same HD2+ chip, there's no way to compare them without having them in the same room as the MT700.

Originally posted by TzungILin
MickB,

If the signal is compressed in the video decoding stage, the external DVD source with adjustability won't help either.

It seems to be more a case of the brightness control range. With a Bravo D2 (that does have brightness and contrast adjustment on all resolutions via component), I can get the black bars to appear and properly set the black level.

The best way, and maybe the fundamental way, is to enter the service mode to correct the crushing issues.


No doubt. That's what I'd really like to do.

Well I snuck away again do go upstairs and "do work". I may have implied this was "work work" but it was really "avsforum work". I think I've got the black clip/crush solved.

What you have to do is put a 480p source on and then go to Setup/NTSC Mode and select "Japan". When you switch to 720p NTSC Mode is unselectable, but if you set it to "Japan" in 480p then it stays that way in 720p.

My guess is that NTSC Mode: USA maps to 7.5 IRE setup while NTSC Mode: Japan maps to 0 IRE setup. Apparently ATSC 480p and 720p should have 0 IRE Setup. From a quick google search I got this quote from a WideScreen Review article on a Lumagen scaler:

>PDSTL (pedestal or setup) should be set
>to match the nominal black level (0 or 7.5
>IRE) of each input signal. The standard for
>composite and S-video signals is 7.5 IRE in
>North America. The black level for YPbPr
>signals is usually 0 IRE, which follows the
>EIA/CEA 770.2 standard, but it may be 7.5
>IRE on older DVD players. Some DVD players
>include an option for “no setup,” “dark,”
>or “enhanced-black,” which all refer to
>black at 0 IRE.

So far I have three test scenes for this (extremely hit-you-in-the-face obvious) problem:

1) 480p Xbox component Burnout 3 dark grey car had no detail and was too dark: getting the grey right with brightness blew out the rest of the image. Also a general feeling of missing detail.
2) 480p/720p HDTivo component HDNet test pattern: blacks obviously clipped - the "10" in the last box is never visible
3) 720p HDTivo component (didn't try 480p) HBO HD Deadwood: daylight scene, preacher with a dark suit: suit is a black mass - detail (buttons, folds, etc. all gone) is clipped, even when pumping brightness up to make blacks look gray

All of these were solved with the NTSC Mode set to Japan.

MikeSRC - could you try your Bravo HD over component to see if this solves what you're seeing as well?

BTW, there's no white crush on the HDNet test pattern. I'll verify the DVE reverse gray ramp when I hook up my RP-56 via component. At least BenQ only crushed/clipped blacks this time :). Though to be fair Toshiba could have screwed this up.

TzungILin - good suggestion on the 8700 service menu: perhaps someone will be brave enough to go in and mess with the colorwheel sync to see if it helps horizontal pans. I'm personally not going to void my warranty.

EDIT: Forgot to mention all sources had a general feeling of missing detail/something wrong, which the NTSC mode: Japan fixed. Things now look like they in HDTivo component the same way they do in HDTivo HDMI. I'm now going to watch an HBO HD movie over component to get a longer look.

Good stuff FG!

I was thinking about whether they had set something for NTSC that was causing the problem, but I expected it would affect 480i as well. I still think it's off, since just adding setup (black at 7.5 IRE) shouldn't cause problems of that extent. 7.5 IRE would still be distinguishable from 10, 15 or 20.

I'll check it out with both my Panny at 480p and the Bravo at 720 and 1080. I agree, there is no white crush issue with the MT700.

BTW, the BenQ 8700 service menu mode doesn't work. It uses a discrete "On" command that doesn't exist on the MT700 remote.

I don't know if I missed this, but, does the MT700 have a problem with color space when you use an upconverting dvd player at 720P or 1080i?

Okay, setting NTSC mode to "Japan" gives you proper black levels for all resolutions above 480i. In fact, Brightness is just about right on at "0". I would still use a normal DVD player set for 480i as the proper settings will result in less dithering in blacks.

Set to "USA", the MT700 crushes everything below 17.5 IRE. With it set for "Japan", you have to get below 7.5 IRE before the change is imperceptible. It seems that the "Japan" setting is really the correct "USA" setting (with setup added) and the USA setting has an additional 7.5 IRE, setting black at 15 IRE.

Watching some true HD content at 720p was approaching the quality seen with the DVI feed.

Thanks for the discovery Mr. Gimp. :D

Originally posted by MikeSRC
Okay, setting NTSC mode to "Japan" gives you proper black levels for all resolutions above 480i...

This is just when using component, right?

Yes and with 480i you can have it set to "USA".

I'm just wondering what would be a good choice for a screen with this projector.

I posted a message (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5361782#post5361782) about this in the Screens Section. Please, let me know what you think.

Originally posted by MikeSRC
Yes and with 480i you can have it set to "USA"...

...I would still use a normal DVD player set for 480i as the proper settings will result in less dithering in blacks...

So if component needs to be used, the way to go is 480i (less dithering in blacks and no black crush)?

Originally posted by GCG
I'm just wondering what would be a good choice for a screen with this projector.


I prefer a matte white, but a DaLite HCCV would be a good choice as well. Pretty much the same as the InFocus 4805.

Originally posted by GCG
So if component needs to be used, the way to go is 480i (less dithering in blacks and no black crush)?

Yes, for DVDs. Same as with the 4805. The Faroudja deinterlacing is as good or better than any.

MickB - I think MikeSRC has used the Bravo D2 at 720p with no problems. For what it's worth I have no color problems with my "upconverting player", an 1:1 HTPC w/ Nvidia filters, ffdshow, and a Nvidia 6800. The result is identical with my calibrated MT700 to my eyes with what I get with my 4805.

GCG - Screen choice really depends on your penchant for black levels or need for gain. One approach is to get the pj and a Do-able white board. Then get tons of samples from manufacterers and see what you like. I've gone this route and am going with a Da-lite HCMW 1.1 gray screen. Blacks are much improved and whites/colors still look good to me. Of course I'm only using a 70" side screen. YMMV on a larger screen. I'd guess with much more than 80" wide a gray screen might not be the way to go, unless you run on high lamp.

Originally posted by GCG
So if component needs to be used, the way to go is 480i (less dithering in blacks and no black crush)?

Yes if you've only got a 480i source, then you can just set it to USA. The problem comes in if you have both 480i and 720p, etc. It appears that the pj has only one setting for USA/Japan, which is used for all input formats. To get around this you need a a dvd player with configurable black setup so that you can set the pj to Japan. A lot of DVD players have this. Look for something related to black level. On my RP-56 I think it is called something like "Darker Blacks" (been a long time since I even powered it on).

Gimp:

Have you tried the BNC input? I seem to recall from the BenQ 8700 that the RCA component input had a black level problem with anything other than 480i, but that the BNC component input works properly with higher resolutions. (My memory might be wrong though.)

You can find RCA/BNC converter plugs at Radio Shack.

Pip

Pip - I plan to try the BNC component for kicks at some point. If I remember correctly the 8700's RCA component input only worked at 480i. >=480p would sync only on the BNC component input.

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
GCG - Screen choice really depends on your penchant for black levels or need for gain. One approach is to get the pj and a Do-able white board. Then get tons of samples from manufacterers and see what you like. I've gone this route and am going with a Da-lite HCMW 1.1 gray screen. Blacks are much improved and whites/colors still look good to me. Of course I'm only using a 70" side screen. YMMV on a larger screen. I'd guess with much more than 80" wide a gray screen might not be the way to go, unless you run on high lamp.

I think I'm going to follow your advice. It makes tons of sense. Did you have a hard time getting samples from the manufacturers? What was the average size of the samples you received?

You just answered a question I posted on the Screens Section about Da-Lite's HCMW and HCCV. So HCMW is a grey screen even though its name says "matte white", right? Is the HCCV grey also? How did they compared between them and what made you go for the HCMW?

I'm planning to go 96" wide. In your opinion, will a HCMW or HCCV be appropriate for that size using the MT700?

Thanks for your help.

I have a sample of the HCCV as well as HCMW that I compared to my Goo grey screen with my MT700.

For my tastes, even the 700 needs help in the black levels - but I really am a black level freak.

The HCCV has a black level close to my Goo SYstems grey, but not quite as nice- I'd say we are talking about about 1/2 stop or less. The color on the HCCV is better and truer than the Goo. However, in bright areas I do see sparklies with the HCCV, which I find distracting. - I'm using the bulb on high power, and am projecting an 80" diagonal, watching from 10 feet in a decently light control environment.

I also had samples up of HCDM, Glass Beaded, Video Spectra

Any white screen for me simply has too high a black level, but that is my bias.

The more I look at screen materials I'm realizing there is simply no free lunch. Every material has plusses and tradeoffs.

Yes HCMW is a gray screen. It and HCCV look just about identical to me. The reason I'm going with HCMW is because the Model B Square screens are dirt cheap. I highly recommend Avsforum .com they sell them for the best price on the web and you're supporting the forum to boot. I believe they have square screens up into to 90+" range. You can rip the fabric off and mount it to a board if you end up having waves.

Because of the reviews and price range on HCMW, I just got Da-Lite samples. I just emailed info@da-lite.com and asked for 2'x2' samples. No problems whatsoever. I'm sure you can email other manufacturers as well. Matte White looked identical to my Do-Able board so it was out.

I honestly don't know whether a 96" wide gray is too much for the MT700. My gut feel is you'd be pushing it. You have to estimate how it will look with the lamp at half brightness later in life. The easiest way to do this is get a pj and Do-Able board together and slap on an Hoya ND2 HMC filter, which slices light output in half. You can also try to an estimate of the light output using projectorcentral's calculator (though you have to guess at what the MT700's true 6500k calibrated lumens are - I'd guess 500-600 on low lamp) and see if you are still bright enough with the lamp halfway down on that wide of a screen.

emailists - have you seen any noisy horizontal pans on your unit? I'm trying to figure out whether what I see is standard MT700 behavior.

Thanks in advance.

Hmm, not sure I see any issues with Pans besides typical 24 frame strobe. The Cinematographers handbook even has recommended panning speeds, to avoid strobbing. I'm very sensitive to artifacts and havent seen any (besides the greenworms) that have troubled me at all.

emailists - glad to hear it. Hopefully what I've seen is limited to a few scenes or can be calibrated away once someone finds a service manual.

GCG - another point to remember is that black level will go down as screen size increases. Fewer photons per square inch. The Do-Able board will let you go 96" wide, at least for 2.35:1 films, so you should be able to get an idea if you need lower blacks. As I think emailists mentioned you can also get multiple screens - high power/matte white for daylight and gray for nighttime. The Da-lite screens are cheap enough that you can consider it.

BTW, another contender should be the Sony Black Screen depending on your budget. $2K MSRP, but hopefully lower street prices once dealers start selling it. This screen rejects light that doesn't come from the pj and may not require masking (at least for 16:9 since it appears black, it may still need 2.35:1 masking).

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
BTW, another contender should be the Sony Black Screen depending on your budget. $2K MSRP, but hopefully lower street prices once dealers start selling it. This screen rejects light that doesn't come from the pj and may not require masking (at least for 16:9 since it appears black, it may still need 2.35:1 masking).

Hmm, when is this Sony screen suppoed to be coming out?

Black screen on or about 3/31/05 (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=awiRF_uuDdKRMbmYL3SbHLSh7g2Jjt2Z3qU=? CategoryName=tv_TVDepartmentAccessories_FrontProjection<br />Accessories&ProductSKU=HCSW80&INT=sstyle-SonyStyleRoot-homefeature-HCSW80) .

Click pre-order to see the 3/31 date. I might be in the market since it's 70" wide. I could see replacing my HD CRT RPTV with a 4805 or 4810 if they had a 50" wide version. Of course that's assuming user reviews tout this as being the miracle screen Sony says it will be.

That screen was impressive at both CEDIA and CES, but I like to see it with my own setup. It could be just the thing for my family room, which is impossible to light control.

BTW, I got the MT500 service menu procedure and it doesn't work with the MT700. :(

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
Black screen on or about 3/31/05 (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=awiRF_uuDdKRMbmYL3SbHLSh7g2Jjt2Z3qU=? CategoryName=tv_TVDepartmentAccessories_FrontProjection<br />Accessories&ProductSKU=HCSW80&INT=sstyle-SonyStyleRoot-homefeature-HCSW80) .

Click pre-order to see the 3/31 date. I might be in the market since it's 70" wide. I could see replacing my HD CRT RPTV with a 4805 or 4810 if they had a 50" wide version. Of course that's assuming user reviews tout this as being the miracle screen Sony says it will be.

Thanks for the link. But....

since it's 70" wide

'eh? No 110" black screen?

MikeSRC
I have a 4805 and moving to a dedicated HT 12x20x9h room. 100% light control. Have 92in diagonal 0.8 Grey screen. Using component w/Sony 575 DVD.
First row about 11-13 ft. Could go larger screen. Use is 80% DVD.

Is the MT700 a step up. Will it work with a DVD player you sell over HDMI or ?

How is contrast vs 4805 and 7205?

Yeah as of now it's definitely not for most projector nuts with decent sized rooms. I'd have trouble spending $2K just on a 70" wide screen.

But it's good to bring up in screen discussions. *If* it's as good as folks say (praise, I think, has been universal), it's good to know Sony has brought it to market. It might save someone dropping 1.5-2K on a Stewart/Silverstar and making do with a Da-Lite until the wider, though perhaps seamed, Black Screens are released.

Since I run a 70" wide screen right now (in these small manhattan apartments I sit only 10' away) some people comments it almost too big-

I'd be a perfect candidate for the SOny Blackscreen. We'll see what the street prices are- but it may be too pricy for me however.

would it make more sense to start a MT700 thread in 'screens' forum for this screen talk?

or a new MT700 official thread? seems like this pj is a winner and should have a dedicated forum.

corba,

There is a MT700 thread in the screens forum already.

What would the difference be between this thread and an "official" thread?

Originally posted by KramerTC

What would the difference be between this thread and an "official" thread? [/B]

less screen talk, more MT700 talk

I don't get what's so hard about hitting page down if you're not interested in hearing what screen goes with the MT700. Every other dedicated projector thread has screen discussions. I'm an owner of the MT700 and want to hear what others have seen with their MT700/screen pairing, and I also want to help others by saying what I've seen. It seems absolutely cogent to talk about it since it has so much to do with what you get out of the MT700. Other threads go off on wild tangents unrelated to HT at all. At least we're talking about projection.

There are apparently three people who have the MT700. We're not going to have shocking new revelations every day.

Now I'm wasting my time justifying why I should be able to post about something relevant to the MT700. Honestly this is why I never posted much here before. There's always someone you'll piss off if you don't post exactly what they want to hear.

Is it so bad to scroll through a little banter on the MT700 w/ screens to also get reviews against other pjs, a solution for horrible looking 480p/720p/1080i component for *free*, etc.? I can guarantee you Toshiba couldn't help you after my sojourn to try to get service menu access from them.

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
I don't get what's so hard about hitting page down if you're not...

sorry if i appeared anal retendo, but my MT700 gets delivered today, and every time a post hits this forum i get an email, whilch causes me to come visit, only to see an off topic post, esp. when there IS a screen/MT700 thread....

no big deal, i was really glad to hear about the black crush fix yesterday!!!
(which did force me to buy a 25ft HDMI cable btw!) and keep hoping to see more great news about this PJ, but only see screen chat....

so it's not just hitting pagedown

:)

Gimp

Keep contributing ALL info you have for us that are on the fence re buying an MT700.

I do glaze over with some of the computer talk but the screen info is valuable.

Corba - Welcome to the MT700 club. I'm sure you'll be able to bring us back to talk on the pj itself. I look forward to hearing what you see, especially on horizontal pans. I've got to watch some more movies in a normal fashion, no A/Bing against the 4805, to see if I even notice the pan dither noise.

Also Corba if you're properly anal retentive (like me) shouldn't you be subscribed to the MT700 screen thread as well? :D Not to mention the Over $3500 MT700 thread, etc. We're doing you a favor by condensing all the talk into a single thread! ;)

FlyingGimp,

What mooney said.

I appreciate all the info you have shared on this thread. You've spent a great deal of time testing and tweaking and just as much time posting here. If I don't want to read something or it does not interest me I just skip it.

I also would think that screen talk is appropriate as well since the choice of screen affects the image.

Originally posted by FlyingGimp
I look forward to hearing what you see, especially on horizontal pans. I've got to watch some more movies in a normal fashion, no A/Bing against the 4805, to see if I even notice the pan dither noise.

I checked out a bunch of scenes last night (and A/B'd against the 4805) and only saw some small instances of the blur during panning. The "dragging the bicycle" scene from Spiderman 2 that had been mentioned in the H77 thread was the most noticeable, but if no one had told me about it, I never would have noticed. It's partly in how the scene was filmed. On a CRT, the frames of the background posters are kind of choppy, but the MT700 blurs them.

The 4805 was better in this respect, but again, without the comparison, I never would have known the difference.

Might try an ND2 filter next. Still searching for service menu access. :(

MikeSRC - since you have an ND2 filter on your 4805, what size/mounting type are you thinking of trying? I want to add an ND2 to my mine, but I don't want to be stuck with the wrong size. I'm not entirely sure what the best way to mount it is, since I don't see threads on the MT700.

I'm going to pull the 62 mm one I have off the 4805 and see how it fits the MT700. With the 4805, it fits snugly inside the rim that projects out from the lens, so there's nothing you have to do to attach it.

Update - The 62 mm is a little small for the MT700, but I can temporary lay it in there to check it out. Looks like 67 mm adapter ring might make it fit just right.

Thanks for the update. Guess I'll give 67mm a shot. That what I've had in my cart at a photo store for awhile, waiting to pull the trigger.

FG or MikeSRC,
have either of you guys been able to make a real world contrast ratio measure? I just read the Don Francis review of the Sharp Z2000 here (http://www.digitalaudiovideo.com/reviews/sharpxvz2000_review.shtml) and was a little disappointed that it only measured 1545:1. I am hoping that my next projector would end up upwards of 2K:1. I wonder if there is any potential for some upside with a CC filter...
-jeff

I want to know about what screen people are using because I'm making a decision the middle of april when the BENQ 7700 comes out. So whatever people have to say about it I want to hear which is why I started this thread in the first place.

Originally posted by Jeff J
FG or MikeSRC,
have either of you guys been able to make a real world contrast ratio measure?

I have the ability to measure CR with OpticOne, but I don't put much stock in CR measurements in my evaluation of a projector. In any event, I'm going to compare whatever results I get with the MT700 to the 4805 and H31 in the same setting and post the results.

I have a white room and no light meter, so I can't do CR measurements. I've read that some color meters may not be accurate for CR, though I have no idea how good the OpticOne is in this regard. I may find out, as I'm seriously thinking of buying the OpticOne in a couple months (you can get it direct from the meter manufacturer for a good price.

Ordered the Hoya 67mm ND2 HMC, but with cheap shipping, so expect a review late next week. I also should be ordering my HCMW from avscience today.