ftlee

What is your screen size and gain? Do you desire TV brightness for daytime use (36ftL) or movie brightness for nighttime use (12ftL).

I think it is safe to assume you do not need to derate for lamp dropping 50% - maybe just 25% by the time you upgrade it.

krasmuzik,

123" Stewart Silver 3D (2.2 Gain). Plasma Brightness. :D I would like something that doubles the contrast ratio of the 7205 and comes very close to the lumens specs while the 7205 is running in econo-mode. I do not care that I would have to change the bulb with a 1000 less hours to get there.

P.S. I may switch to an UltraMatte 150 because of severe hot-spotting with the 7205 and Silver 3D (at maximum throw).

Will the bulb in the Optoma be at 50% before the Infocus?

If what you indicated about the 7205 is true of the 7210, the IF7210 will only put out 15xx:1 CR with white peaking turned off.

Tom,

The measurements please... I will buy you a beer! :D

Frank

All lamps are ANSI half life rated - whatever life hours they spec is the 50% point (on average....). The high power lamp rating is always less.

So if you go for half the half life then you should be 25% dimmer at most - assume you do not regain it with high power lamp since you used it to begin with.

So that means your 2.2 gain screen you need 980 new lamp lumens to achieve 36ftL at half-half lamp life. (i.e. Infocus SP7205 low power)

1400 lumens if you cut down to 1.5 gain screen. (Infocus SP7205 high power and some white peaking)

I would certainly stick to the high gain screen with an Optoma - but don't expect it as bright as the Infocus - since the Optoma marketed rating is what you need - but not what you will get! Keep in mind your Infocus is likely brighter than spec.



Infocus did not change the SP7210 design beyond DC3 contrast improvements - so I expect the improvement is purely DC3 engineering. Notice the big contrast jump between SP7200 and SP7205. That was 60% marketing, 40% engineering.

It may surprise you to know that the highly regarded high contrast NEC HT1100 is in reality about the same as the Infocus SP7205 calibrated with the IRIS open about the same as the Infocus SP4805 with IRIS closed.

People do not buy Infocus because it is high contrast - it is because they either want large plasmas or large movie screens and need the brightness.

BTW I have you beat in the "plasmer" numbers dept - Infocus SP7205 on a 60" Vutec Silver Star (6.0 gain marketing, ~3.0 gain engineering) :D Yours is bigger but mine is brighter :D

Originally posted by guitarman
With your extech how close can you be facing the PJ to get a 100IRE reading?


I use the small white disk to difuse light. With the disk on I put the meter at a distance to get close to 2.00 lux. It was about 3 feet away from the lense.

BTW I have you beat in the plasmer numbers dept - Infocus SP7205 on a 60" Vutec Silver Star (6.0 gain marketing, ~3.0 gain engineering) Yours is bigger but mine is brighter

krasmuzik,

I had a 122.5" sitting here in my house and I REALLY LOVE the screen. However, I could not get it in the basement where my HT is located. I REALLY HOPE at some point Vutec can ship the material rolled up. I would be all over it!

Frank

Tom,

Please post greyscale sheet from Colorfacts along with the NEW contrast wizard when you measure tonight in the dark.

Thanks,
Daniel

Originally posted by darinp2
Tom,

It sounds to me like your chances of getting an accurate CR with that light meter with one pass as slim to none. You may want to try the trick of measuring 100 IRE and 20 IRE at the screen and then 20 IRE and 0 (or 7.5) IRE close to the projector. I don't think that meter has enough range for one pass (since it saturates at the top when the black reading still isn't within reasonable accuracy). Then it might be interesting to compare the 2 pass measurements with what Colorfacts gives with the Trichromat. If you just gave us the 4 readings for 100 IRE, 20 IRE, 20 IRE, and 0 IRE (with the first two and the screen and the 2nd two near the projector) we could tell you what that meant for CR.

Just make sure that your 0 IRE reading with the light meter isn't too low (readings of 0.001 tell you close to nothing because your error could be bigger than your reading).

--Darin

Ok here's what I got and several times

At the screen
100IRE 17.60ftc
80IRE 11.00ftc
7.5IRE 0.001

3ft from the lens
100IRE 068 x10 setting would give me this number
20IRE 5.72
7.5IRE 0.23

Lol, I don't know what you can make of it, lmk :)

Oh I used the Tri-chromat again this time meter flat at the screen, same deal 2710.1 CR

Pitch black enviroment.

Originally posted by guitarman
Ok here's what I got and several times

At the screen
100IRE 17.60ftc
80IRE 11.00ftc
7.5IRE 0.001

3ft from the lens
100IRE 068 x10 setting would give me this number
20IRE 5.72
7.5IRE 0.23

Lol, I don't know what you can make of it, lmk :)

Thanks. First of all, the 80 IRE and 20 IRE can't tell us anything, since they aren't related in any meaningful way. You would need to use 20 IRE for both locations.

The 680/0.23 does give you about 2960:1 (or 3000:1 rounded). Not too far from the 2710:1 you get with the Trichromat, but a little off (about 10%).

I will say that with a 100 IRE of 680 and 20 IRE of 5.72 you are at a little under 1% there. So, I think you are coming out of black a little bit slower than a 2.2 gamma would call for. I think that would put you a little over 2% of 100 IRE at 20 IRE (closer to 15ftc for the 20 IRE measurement up close). No big deal, but just thought I would point it out.

BTW: If that first one really is .001 for 7.5 IRE you can see how far off the result can be measuring that low, since that would be 17600:1. If it was .01 it is still 1760:1 and quite a ways from the other measurements.

--Darin

I follow what you are saying about HT mag now - since they insist on representing contrast ratio as white/black ftL at screen- supposedly to impart more information about white/black levels suitability for HT. But it is an inaccurate measure because of the low black levels one measures at the screen - add a high degree of uncertainty.

It is fine to represent it as such - but they should measure it closer to the projector - then calculate what the screen would be (which is what I do - but then I sell Infocus not Optoma or Sharp - so I don't have such contrast measure troubles :D)

Originally posted by krasmuzik
I follow what you are saying about HT mag now - since they insist on representing contrast ratio as white/black ftL at screen- supposedly to impart more information about white/black levels suitability for HT. But it is an inaccurate measure because of the low black levels one measures at the screen - add a high degree of uncertainty.

It is fine to represent it as such - but they should measure it closer to the projector - then calculate what the screen would be (which is what I do - but then I sell Infocus not Optoma or Sharp - so I don't have such contrast measure troubles :D) That does help, doesn't it. :) I agree with what they should do. I can tell from their claimed numbers that they aren't doing that, but are doing these measurements at low levels though. For example, if they said that 100 IRE was 8.656 ft-lamberts, black was 0.002 ft-lamberts and the CR was 4200:1 I would know that they did something like you mentioned. That is, it would be an indication that they had used higher accuracy numbers for the 4200:1 claim. However, when they do something like 8.656, 0.002, and 4328:1 I know that they have just used those 2 numbers (since they come out perfectly) and claimed accuracy that isn't there, which is invalid. And their claims in the past follow this pattern of having the numbers divide perfectly (claiming accuracy that doesn't exist).

It kind of reminds me of the story I heard about how they came up with the human body temperature. Somebody took all the readings in Celcius, then somebody else converted each to Farenheit, rounded them, then averaged and claimed 98.6 degrees F. If they had done the math correctly (not rounded early) we would be claiming a different number.

BTW: People can notice how much closer Widescreen Review's number for the 1100 comes to what we would expect based on Yamaha's spec.

--Darin

While I was at it I re-read RGB constant history with the Tri-chromat flush with the screen and grayscale was off a little, plus I have a better way to start with the black reading so I worked on the RGB's again.

Here are the charts I've seemed to lose my 2.36 and I'm back to reference gamma.

This time I got the CIE chart right.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79cieright.jpg

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79rgbchange.jpg

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79gammachange.jpg

When I run the luminance test at 100IRE is get 85.05 cd/m2, seems bright compared to what I get with the one-eye.

Plus the CR changed - black went down to .028
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79cr3.jpg

The charts look pretty good to me Tom, and the greyscale shows red dipping above 80 as expected, since you didn't use red as your limiting colour. If you reduced green and blue to match red above 80, your CR will drop down a fair bit.

Did you take all readings from the screen or from a point nearer the pj? I find taking readings from 3 to 4 feet is likely to be more accurate for low ire readings and for decent black reading for CR.

Gary.

Tom,

I know your busy with the CR stuff but, when you get a chance, can you please let me know what lumens your are getting at D65 and in high lamp mode?

Thanks,

Frank T. Lee

Gary everything was done with the meter 14' back flush with the screen, even the CR test and graysale check.

Thanks for posting the charts Tom.

Does anyone know how much CR will drop once he gets the grayscale properly calibrated? Will it drop to around 2500:1 or so?

I've read in widescreen that getting accurate CIE readings is difficult.........do you think that this is the case here or are the primaries really that bad?

Thanks,
Daniel

Beileive me that's excellent grayscale tracking. You should see the calibration on the Sony HS51 report in HT-mag. Here's the best he could get the grayscale to track.

30IRE 5200k
40IRE 5000k
50IRE 4900k
60IRE 5200k
70IRE 5300k
80IRE 5500k
90IRE 5800k
100 6500k

Probably the moving IRIS had something to do with it. CR was good 2567.1.

Originally posted by guitarman
Beileive me that's excellent grayscale tracking. You should see the calibration on the Sony HS51 report in HT-mag. Here's the best he could get the grayscale to track.

30IRE 5200k
40IRE 5000k
50IRE 4900k
60IRE 5200k
70IRE 5300k
80IRE 5500k
90IRE 5800k
100 6500k

Probably the moving IRIS had something to do with it. CR was good 2567.1.
Well, that is just horrible tracking. However, I'm not sure that other places (like Cine4Home) didn't get much better results.

--Darin

OTB it's worse, tracking angle has the same rise with more angle. He doesn't use colorfacts just the Photo research PR-650.

Originally posted by guitarman
OTB it's worse, tracking angle has the same rise with more angle. He doesn't use colorfacts just the Photo research PR-650.
If you were referring to what I said, I looked at Cine4Home's review and it looks like he was able to get a very flat grayscale after calibration. Before calibration was a different issue. It does seem like he couldn't get flat at 6100:1, but at just under 3k:1 he could get it pretty flat.

--Darin

Sounds like Iris off helped maybe.

If you want to see excellent grey scale tracking - here's one of my HT1000 when I added the FL-Day filter and calibrated to D65. Only 2000:1 Cr when I last measured it though.

Lets not have a flat grey scale bragging session - you guys don't want me posting my results. :D Gary hit the mouse wheel and you can zoom in on those charts and get a tighter scale than 20%. That is what I use while I am calibrating - especially at the low IRE where it can be bit noisy. Flat is when you have a solid white line becuase the RGB histogram is perfectly aligned :D Oh what the heck - you can see an example in the Cine4Home.de SP4805 review for flat - out of the box!

The Panny and Sony measures in that review could not be any more different for the same technology. It is obvious that the extreme auto IRIS affects the color temp. I saw the same thing on the NECHT1100 with it's manual IRIS - you do need to calibrate for it. Not sure why the Sony cannot be made linear though!

guitarman - while it is mostly flat -it is obvious that your highlites are still cyan pushed red limited. Which means more contrast/brightness - as can be seen by your gamma deviation for bright white. Some calibrators do that trick for that reason - but I don't like what it does to snow and cloud highlites - so I don't do it (same reason I don't use white peaking)

Yet another thing for you to buy - DisplayMate video edition - has a great color steps pattern to see easier when you are red limiting. There is also an ISF edition that you can get once you take the training.

Hi Kras,

Yup, a slight hump at around 40/50ire so there's definitely room for improvement. I did do it about a year ago though and it was one of my first attempts. I 'trained' my sensor to a Gretag eye-one on Saturday, so I might have another go with my H77 and see if any improvements can be made.

Would love to see some truly flat calibrations though. I'll have a look at your reviews and depress myself by seeing just how much I've still to learn... :)

Thanks for the mouse wheel tip.

Gary.

I have not posted my latest work - the old Spyder was noisy and aged thus under on green and over on red. So my review is only good in a relative to each other sense. So take my posted review as my worst work :D

I am much happier with the Spyder 2 - but hopefully it will last - not sure how many times they will refurb it. Of course they sell the same sensor for $99 dollars and PC monitor software - so maybe can keep getting refurbs at the price I paid!

Originally posted by guitarman
Beileive me that's excellent grayscale tracking. You should see the calibration on the Sony HS51 report in HT-mag. Here's the best he could get the grayscale to track.

30IRE 5200k
40IRE 5000k
50IRE 4900k
60IRE 5200k
70IRE 5300k
80IRE 5500k
90IRE 5800k
100 6500k

Probably the moving IRIS had something to do with it. CR was good 2567.1.

Yeah it looks to me like they did not know what they were doing. The first few times I calibrated my HS51 I did it with the iris off. Low and behold when I turned it back on auto and ran grayscale it was nowhere close. You have to calibrate manually with the iris on auto allowing it to adjust and then take the measurements. Doing this I was able to get fairly flat and 3800:1 contrast readings consistently.

Brian

Geoff must hv missed up on something. Everybodys got a higher CR and that grayscale chart was a diagonal line. OTB and after tuning.

Both the H79 and HT1000 have been put to bed. Playing with the H77 and Otpoma H31 after dark. :)

I suspect the lumens are about 650 which is not too shabby ...

That HS51 ... that is one of the most horrid new pieces I have seen.

Try and remember that the colorfacts is not all that accurate in the lower ire range ...so the use of ones eyeballs connected to a brain may prove to give better results. If you learn to trust your eyes it can save some grief.

Tom... Golf season is coming up soon and I need some more recommendations on some small stogies... I can't smoke the big ones because my brain is trained to inhale and I tend to fall over and can't get back up..


Robert

guitarman

Might as well throw in an OT while you are calibrating....

speaking of stinky smokes - read that Berzerkly is passing a measure that a certain stinky grows in the wild herbal smoke needs to be certified as grown organic?

Just want to get local confirmation - whenever our small town WA newspaper does CA stories - this is the type of story that we get.

Berkely is a little wierd for reality, the don't even allow smokers to smoke on the street, next up their own home.

Mandrax get some Bolivar Royal Coronas (5X50 ring gauge).

Oh what PJ for the 650lumens?

Sorry to screw up this color calibrating/contrast ratio tech fest, but I thought I'd actually ask a question about the H79. :rolleyes:

Have my H79 coming this week & was wondering what kind of screen material would be recommended. Since this has good contrast and blacks, would I be making a mistake with anything other than a white screen? I was told by one fellow to check out the Vutec Brite White and Stewart Studiotech 130. I see Tom is using Dalite mat white. I am currently projecting a 92" diag DIY Behr Silverscreen over b.o. cloth screen (looks quite good actually with my trusty 4805). I have blackout curtains that lets in a bit of extranious light in the daytime & mostly watch at night with no lights on, though occasionally we'll turn on a bit of light so we can see what the hell we're eating. ;) If I remember correctly when at CES most of the folks showing DC3 projectors were either using or recommending white screens. Is this the groovy way to go for the H79?

BTW, if anyone wants to be so kind as to share their H79 settings that they think looks great - Tom? - please feel free to post it. I realize there are many variables that make this not a perfect science, but please give it a go.

sotagear: I struggled with this same question back when I got my H77. I finally chose the Firehawk. With any ambient light, I still think it's the way to go. If I had a bat cave, or didn't need to see what I was eating, then I'd consider the ST130. There's a lot of talk about the vutec silverstar lately. I woudl also give it some thought (again if I had a batcave). But FYI, I e-mailed them twice, neither time did they even have the courtesy to respond. Stewart on the other hand was always prompt and helpfull with all questions. The Vu sounds interesting, but I'd have to see one before I'd get one. P.S. They charge extra for a nice velvet covered frame to boot.

HTH,
Scott

Scott, Thanks for the thoughts. I saw the Silverscreen at CES & I thought it was shining like crazy. If I could see that much at the show with "lots" of ambient light I figured it would drive me crazy with sheen at home. Maybe someone that actually has this in house could dispell my fears about that one.

Whatever material I get I'll likely buy only the screen material. My existing frame is well cinstructed & I already have a nice velvet border made for it, so that's not a concern. Of course getting swatches big enough to actually make a reasonable decision is a bit iffy sounding but I'll give it a try, including the Firehawk.

I believe Stewart will give you decent samples. I can't get anyone at Vutec to acknowledge my mail, much less send a sample.

I'm ordering the H79 myself and have settled on the Da-Lite CV. I wanted a little gain so I could get the most out the bulb life. Leave it in eco for as long as possible. Don't have any equipment yet so no real world experience but I'll post as soon as it's all together.

Originally posted by MichaelZ
I too, have ordered a H79 and I plan on using the Carada bright white screen (1.3 gain) I am currently using with my old Marantz S1. I think it should look awesome with the H79.

Ahh, I had not thought about this manufacturer. It sounds like a similar thing to the Stewart Studiotech 130, and probably less expensive. I'll try them as well for a sample. Please post your results as soon as you have some time with the H79 on that screen. Cheers.

Do you know what the viewing angle on the bright white is? I looked on their website and they only mentioned the gain.

The Cinema Vision screen I'm using with my H76 works really well, so I expect the H79 would / will work even better on it.

It appears a 1.3 gain or so white screen will do with images less than 120" diagonal given reports of the brightness from this pj even after calibration, and viewing angles won't be much of an issue with these screens except maybe past 160 degrees IIRC for the Carada. If ambient light is an issue the firehawk might be indicated.

I've got a High Power but it may be overkill at ~3 gain deep within its viewing cone, at least initially, but we'll see how brightness holds up as the bulb ages, and I plan also to use economode for as long as I can. Also, my image may be up to 129" diagonal if the increased fill factor really translates to less visible screen door, and then I may need the gain - particularly after bulb aging.

The projectorcentral site (http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-H79-projection-calculator-pro.htm ) has a calculator that purports to show fL levels for a given gain screen for the H79. I wouldn't necessarily take those values to the bank, though, due to light output dropping in a calibrated pj and with bulb aging as has been noted frequently here.

Dan

The manual for this projector shows a minimum of 24"down from the ceiling.
I don't understand this requirement. Can anyone explain?

Dan,

I measured the lumens from my H77 at just 510 in high lamp mode with around 60 hours on the lamp, so the advertised figures aren't even close. I wonder if DLP projector lumens are taken without a color wheel installed..

Frank,

I would think the height of the H79 from the ceiling would depend on how far from the ceiling the top of the screen was. My screen is around 19 ins from the (7ft) ceiling, and the pj is about 13ins from the ceiling. I'm using a DIY mount and the lens shift is almost at maximum. I can't see any negative effects from the lens shift being that far from center, but sometimes it can produce some optical problems.

Gary.

I decided to chalk up my experience with the H77 (focus/lens shift problems) to manufacturing defects and give the H79 a shot. The AVS powerbuy price was too good to pass up. Hopefully things will be better this time around. It sounds like the panning artifact, which was particularly noticeable on the H77, has been taken care of thanks to the faster DC3 DMD.

I expect to have it this week. I'll post my comments once I've had a chance to calibrate it.

thirdkind, that's just great, glad you're giving it a shot and Jason's deal has me curious now. Definetly the torture test dither shots play well on the H79, night and day infact.
We noticed a big step up in picture, especially in HDTV, see if you think the same.

thirdkind: I, too will be highly interested in your objective viewpoint. I look very forward to your input on the thing.

Cheers, Scott

Gary, about the colorwheel comment, :D

So, from all the above we can say that the H79 probably has a post-calibration output of between 500-650 lumens with a CR is around 2800+:1. These numbers and the other reported picture improvements in fill factor and mirror speed with the DC3, lens shift with my High Power, and AVS's offer have lured me in, for one.

I mean, really, if so many astute observers say the pj is at least good, what is the probability that it's a dog? I'd say low and that's my rationalization for buying sight unseen....

I hope to post some calibration figures if all goes according to plan by next weekend. We'll see how much agreement or lack thereof we get. At least owners could take an average of our settings and try them out ;)

Dan

With the new owners coming up I expect an estacit 25 thumbs up.
Lucky dogs

I get my High Power next week, not that I think I need it but it is best for non-tensioned electric screens.

When you first turn it on think Pow, now that's what I'm talking about :)

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
I measured the lumens from my H77 at just 510 in high lamp mode with around 60 hours on the lamp, so the advertised figures aren't even close. I wonder if DLP projector lumens are taken without a color wheel installed..

Did you have white peaking on? The speced figures are with that on and uncalibrated as far as I know. Given white peaking and uncalibrated for specs, 510 doesn't sound far off after changing to white peaking disabled and calibrated to D65. I'm guessing the color wheel comment is a joke. For those who don't know, these would be closer to 2k lumens than 1k lumens without a colorwheel (just look at 3 chippers with basically the same bulbs). There is an HP projector that allows moving the colorwheel out of the way for black and white images, and super bright.

--Darin

Stack three of those HP's with colored lens filters - instant three chip - no rainbows!

" I mean, really, if so many astute observers say the pj is at least good, what is the probability that it's a dog? I'd say low and that's my rationalization for buying sight unseen.... " -

I've seen Toms, and I ordered one from Jason too!!

Speaking of stacks, the H77's are so cheap, I wonder what a stack of them would look like? It woudl *still* be quieter than most single units, maybe a ton of brightenss. Dunno how it would affect the blacks. Add a motorized polarizer lens set to a light sensor so it would block PJ #2 as the light dimmed in dark scenes.... Hmmmm....

Dan,

Those H79 numbers don't seem at all unreasonable for a calibrated machine, so I'm looking forward to your figures as a comparison to the H77. I might try and post a greyscale and CIE of mine if I get the chance to get some new ones done.

Darin,

The figures I quoted were without white peaking and were calibrated. I did get well over 2800:1 with the contrast up high and crushing, so I can easily try it with the white peaking on and brightness/contrast at extremes. The peaking does terrible things to the picture even on setting one, so will be interesting to see what it's like on maximum.

The color wheel jibe was not really a joke as such, as I was surprised at how few lumens I was getting from a new lamp - over 40% seems quite a large drop and with more to follow as the lamp ages. Auto manufacturers might as well quote a cars top speed as 600mph as that's how fast they will go if you drop them from 103,000ft through the rarified atmosphere. After all, that's about as likely to happen as a pj owner viewing his pj in the conditions that allow full quoted lumens. :)

Gary.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
The color wheel jibe was not really a joke as such, as I was surprised at how few lumens I was getting from a new lamp - over 40% seems quite a large drop and with more to follow as the lamp ages. Auto manufacturers might as well quote a cars top speed as 600mph as that's how fast they will go if you drop them from 103,000ft through the rarified atmosphere. After all, that's about as likely to happen as a pj owner viewing his pj in the conditions that allow full quoted lumens. :)

I disagree. People here may not use these features, but of Optoma's customers I bet quite a few use white peaking. Especially in ambient light environments. And not everybody calibrates their projector. I think we are a small part of the overall market.

Using the car analogy, calibrated is little like running a car at reasonable RPMs. Should car manufacturer's have to quote 0-60 times while going easy on the car? I figure as long as they don't break it the times are valid.

It would be nice if everybody quoted D65 numbers with no white peaking, but if a projector has this feature and you won't use it you just have to take it into account. Just like business projectors with their white segments. They sure shouldn't have to quote numbers with the white segments off, as this is a feature. And is basically like the white peaking feature. I know some like to turn their white segments on, whether it is "correct" or not. I wouldn't unless the conditions were fairly extreme, but if there was enough ambient light around I would try this.

--Darin

" I measured the lumens from my H77 at just 510 in high lamp mode with around 60 hours on the lamp, so the advertised figures aren't even close. I wonder if DLP projector lumens are taken without a color wheel installed.. " -

Gary - you realize that 510 lumens is exactly what Evan at Projector Central measured -

" The brightest picture was achieved with 480-progressive input in Brite lamp mode. After calibration at this setting we measured lumen output at 510 ANSI lumens. "

http://www.projectorcentral.com/optoma_h77.htm

Fascinating, eh?

Darin,

I see your point - I forget that some may use those features, but I figured that most would use the out of the box settings which still wouldn't come close.

Craig,

Wow, that must mean I was doing something right then!! Well, kinda, as my numbers are via DVI from HTPC. :)

Fascinating indeed!

Gary.

darinp2

And that is the justification that marketing uses for these numbers - there is probably some contorted unwatchable settings that can achieve the number. Heck I use white peaking during the day!

But many custom installers and AVSers desires D65 info. Runco put out their proposed standard using ftL - specifically so it would not conflict with the lumens number - and you can still use it for setup if you know the standard screen size. No reason marketers cannot use that system!

Just look what AVS has to go thru to figure out what the real measurements are so that the videophiles on here can do a proper screen size/gain install!

Or at the least manufacturers reps should be honest with dealers on private spec sheets so they could help out their customers. Not every dealer wants to buy a light meter just to do screen installs!

Gary

I am not sure if getting up to PJC review standard is anything to brag about. Set your goals for WideScreen Review standards!

Originally posted by krasmuzik
But many custom installers and AVSers desires D65 info. I think it would be nice to get D65 also, but they would need to get their other numbers published somehow for them to do it. Otherwise their calibrated numbers get compared to what others are capable of (since the ANSI test does not specify a color balance or white peaking on or off). People around here know that JVC has been conservative with their numbers, but I bet there are still plenty of people who dismiss the HD2K because it is "only" 500 lumens and then buy a projector that is under that after they calibrate it as well as the HD2K.
Runco put out their proposed standard using ftL - specifically so it would not conflict with the lumens number - and you can still use it for setup if you know the standard screen size. No reason marketers cannot use that system!
Okay, maybe you can answer a question for me since I couldn't get a response from Runco. The Vidikron Model 80 (HD2K) shows 18.1 ft-lamberts here (http://www.vidikron.com/vision80.html). Runco's site claims here (http://www.runco.com/Widescreen%20Review%20CSMS%20story.pdf) that they use a 72" wide, 1.3 gain screen. Those numbers don't come out for me. Did they change their screen size for this test? If so, did they tell anybody the new screen size?

Or at the least manufacturers reps should be honest with dealers on private spec sheets so they could help out their customers. Not every dealer wants to buy a light meter just to do screen installs! That would be nice too.

I'm not saying that D65 wouldn't be better, just that I understand why specs are the way they are. I'm just glad we have things like WSR and people around here to give real world conditions.

--Darin

Kras,

lol - you're absolutely right of course. I've just subscribed to the mag for that very reason. :)

I must recheck my figures!!!

Gary.

I have gone by the widescreen review article - is Runco now being deceptive on their own measure? No I think they still report ANSI lumens with it being cranked - they don't want to report HT lumens as it causes customer "confusion" - 18.1 ftL is 281 lumens - sounds reasonable for low lamp and calibrated if this was a BenQ DLP! Or wait - that is a three chip DILA - what OEM is that low - sounds wrong? I though DILA was about twice that bright calibrated? Do you think they are accounting for lamp aging?

The reality is that all HT projectors are less than 1000 lumens the business market has conditioned people to expect as a low number! (excepting the Sanyo PLV-70 or Infocus SP7205 (only in high power))

Heck the SP4805 is only 600 Lumens - but many people think it is too bright initially on a 92" screen. The X1/SP4800 is only 400 lumens - and there a lot of complaints on the forum being too dim. They should have used a High Power 92" screen - instead they assumed it was 1100 lumens per marketing spec and set up a larger low gain screen.

But I suspect that a lot of custom installers do not read the AVS and mag reviews - and install based on marketing. I see a lot of dim oversized screens at model home shows!

scotthorton

A stack of single chip DLP - would not eliminate the rainbow (in fact it would triple the rainbow). Suppose you could do it with custom VGA cable or RGBHV cables.

Originally posted by krasmuzik
I have gone by the widescreen review article - is Runco now being deceptive on their own measure? No I think they still report ANSI lumens with it being cranked - they don't want to report HT lumens as it causes customer "confusion" - 18.1 ftL is 281 lumens - sounds reasonable for low lamp and calibrated if this was a BenQ DLP! Or wait - that is a three chip DILA - what OEM is that low - sounds wrong? I though DILA was about twice that bright calibrated? Do you think they are accounting for lamp aging? No, I think they most likely switched their standard screen size and didn't tell anybody. They are claiming 491 calibrated lumens on the left side of the Model 80 page and this is in line with the HD2K (which is the base for the Model 80). So, much for making things straightforward, huh? :)

Most of us can't figure out how they could possibly get over 1000 lumens for this thing no matter the settings.

--Darin

darinp2

Maybe they multipled ftL by the 1.3 gain rather than divided by 1.3? That would stink if they change their standard to make the numbers look better!

" Anxiously awaiting. Maybe know something soon. Wish I was a patient as Craig. " -

Scott - I was patient until I saw Toms H79 in person followed by Jason posting the AVS special H79 deal. Think of upgraditis around here as the Borg of the home theater hobby -
" Resistance Is Futile "..................
( my H79 should be here next Wed. )

"A stack of single chip DLP - would not eliminate the rainbow (in fact it would triple the rainbow)."

It seems unlikely that the color wheels will be in perfect sync, so maybe it would reduce rainbows. My memory sucks, but there may have been someone who posted a few years ago that this was the case.

Useless thought, but if the color wheels had the segments in a different order, that should definitely work, but of course the electronics would have to be modified (or maybe with RGB input you could just switch the cables).

With 3 pj's you could have simultaneous R, G, and B images on the screen at all times, and likely no RBE at all, depending on how well the wheels are sync'ed.

Craig: Don't worry, I'm still impatient :). I'm busily trying to get rid of those PJ$$ buring a hole in my pocket. I'm "sampling" a couple other brands to reinforce/convince myself that I was perfectly happy with the H77 and will be even happier with a H79. And I want to hear from some other folks as they get H79's who will see the panning artifacts - that is, how much improvement is there, who does, does not see them, etc.

So far of the brands tried, H7x still the winner. Not by a huge margin, but edging out decently. Especially when listening to the others, wow, now I see why everyone said the H7x's were quiet. Yes, for us PJ newbies, we discovered they are not really "silent", but when you plop down another brand and watch a quite movie, the first thing I though of was "well how will I construct that hush box...".

I have a IF7205 on the way to demo. I could never see one locally :( and I want to be sure I prefer blacks over a light cannon. Never know for sure until you try it I guess.

I'll be glad for you to get your's too. But give you H76 away :D

Cheers,
Scott

Michael: You shouldn't have to tilt the screen unless the PJ is too high/low relative to it. (unless you mean tilt left/right to make up for eing off center I guess) It will (should) shift to at least even with the top of the screen, a little farther depending on your throw, or the lens shift is broken, or they changed the 79, which I doubt. HTH, Scott

Scott - I used to think my HT1000 was quiet on eco mode. Then it started to sound to loud to me. Nothing louder than the H76/77/79 would be exceptable anymore. I really like the H76 image but that darned black with the HT1000 just ruined me. I need a 720p that does blacks as well. From the little I saw of Toms, I believe the H79 will do it!

Originally posted by Craig Peer
I believe the H79 will do it! Fingers crossed, The 65,000 (/10 :)) dollar question is how's it gonna do with those "problem" shots. We'll all know soon as they start rolling in...g'night for me..

So, if I'm doing my math correctly, a calibrated H79 can work OK with a 137" diagonal (120" horizontal) 1.3 gain screen in a light controlled room. Yes?

A 120" wide 16:9 screen has 56.25 square feet. Assuming 550 lumens from a calibrated pj and a true 1.3 gain you'll have about 12-13 fL that is deemed acceptable for movies.

The other issue here is viewing distance. Even with a increased fill factor on the DC3 I wouldn't advise sitting closer than 13-14 ft or so from that size image because the perception of screen door is more likely there, and some would say they see it a few feet further away from that distance.

Dan

Dan,

Thanks for the reply. I'm planning on sitting at least 16' back, so that should be OK.

Would you suggest I use more than a 1.3 gain screen with a 120" screen? If so, what would be your recommendation?

Pete

Pete Sinclair

Don't forget to derate for your lamp! While you will be fine initially - you will be sorely lacking for brightness with a later lamp. Lamp life specifications are at 50% brightness - derate based on how much you will use the lamp - if you want to use brighter lamp modes.

Absolutely use a higher gain for such a large screen. At least double if you want full low power lamp life.

Originally posted by krasmuzik
Pete Sinclair

Don't forget to derate for your lamp! While you will be fine initially - you will be sorely lacking for brightness with a later lamp. Lamp life specifications are at 50% brightness - derate based on how much you will use the lamp - if you want to use brighter lamp modes.

Absolutely use a higher gain for such a large screen. At least double if you want full low power lamp life.

This is a very valid comment but somehow people put alot of money into projectors and screens and forget they can infact replace the bulb before its time. In this case you could for example use eco mode for the first 800 hours, bright mode for the next 400 and then replace it at 1400h instead of 3000h this will keep light output at 75%. doing this 2 or 3 times means about $600 extra over 2 or 3 years. And leaves you with alot of spares when you need them of when you sell the projector to someone with a smaller screen.

Just a idea,

Daniel.

PS: i do agree this is a big screen needing 2.0 kinda gain even when doing a bulb replace at 50% of its time.

Originally posted by MichaelZ
By tilting I had to pull the bottom of the screen out a couple of inches. The screen was tilted slightly inward so it's no big deal but it seemed strange that one PJ was dead on from the same position and for the other, the screen had to be adjusted some. My PJ is mounted almost the same height as the top of the screen. Then the maybe the PJ itself isn't level. Tilt it up and adjust lens shift to compensate, that ought to straighten it out. If the PJ lens is at level with the top edge of the sreen, you are well within the range to get a perfectly squar pic with the optical lens shift. Make sure the keystone is turned off, too.

Michael:

I bet Eco mode is economy, i.e. not bright and is the "brightness" setting. I think thats how the early H77's were labeleled. But my H77's setting was called "britemode" - not a spiffy translation :)

Where in KY are you? Anywhere near Nashville TN?

I'm checking what white peak does to the light meter. I have a 100IRE field going and the meter is at the screen facing the pj. Without white peak I get a steady 18.6ftc increasing white peak by one sends it to 19.2ftc, full white peak increase sends it to 22.3ftc.

I do use the white peak feature at times. You just have to watch what material you plan to view. Mainly you'll only see white crush in white clouds blue sky type scenes.

White peak doesn't add much to cr, it added 500.1 taking cr up to 3500.1.

Originally posted by MichaelZ
Thanks for the info on "eco" mode. I was assuming there were three modes, eco, normal and bright. I am using "bright mode off" (the manual calls this normal) and the PJ is blindingly bright at times on my 96" diag screen :)
I live in Louisville, so I am about 180 miles from Nashville.

Sorry my mistake its called normal and brite, i just called them eco and normal since well thats kinda the normal name for them. its 2000 for bright and 3000 for normal mode.

Daniel.

Originally posted by krasmuzik
Pete Sinclair

Absolutely use a higher gain for such a large screen. At least double if you want full low power lamp life.

Call me ignorant or out of date, but I thought gains over 1.3 caused serious color abberations, sparklies, and poor off-axis viewing. Am I just out of date on screen technologies? Is there a 2.0 gain screen that doesn't have these problems that is a good match for a DLP projector like the H79?

Pete

Hi Michael: I'm on the north side of Nashville, a couple mile soff the interstate. If you want to see your H79 on a 110" firehawk, com'on down! I'd bring the screen and come see you, but it won't fit in my Highlander :(

Originally posted by MichaelZ
Scott, thanks for the invite but I've just mounted this PJ and it ain't going no where :) I have a Carada Brilliant White screen (1.4 gain) 96" and I can't imagine using anything but a white screen with the H79, of course, one would need a light controlled room for this type of screen. I understand! I had you mixed up with the guy using the sheet. Was hoping for a free audition :D. Cheers, Scott

Pete Sinclair

Vutec Silver Star is good for wide viewing angle but it has sheen -- it is not made that big anyways.

If you don't like the artifacts of gain screens - don't use such a large screen.

Originally posted by scotthorton
Hi Michael: I'm on the north side of Nashville, a couple mile soff the interstate. If you want to see your H79 on a 110" firehawk, com'on down! I'd bring the screen and come see you, but it won't fit in my Highlander :(

Of course it fits... I put one in a Highlander last weekend.... 4 bolts, roll up the screen and you're done.... took less than 5 minutes, including pulling it down off the wall and loading it in the car :)

Originally posted by hometheaterdoc
Of course it fits... I put one in a Highlander last weekend.... 4 bolts, roll up the screen and you're done.... took less than 5 minutes, including pulling it down off the wall and loading it in the car :) Heehee. Yours must be smaller than mine screen that is. Those 8' rails from the top/bottom woudl be a tough fit in my car/pretend truck :D

And being as that 10 lb piece of fabric costs more than my 300 lb. 36" XBR HD TV, I'm not much for rolling it up and toting it aroung either! A PJ on the other hand, now that's portable...

scotthorton

That is why I bought a used Land Rover Discovery - with a full safari rack on top! Got a good deal I thought - but already paid 1/3 of my deal in tuneups! Ouch these things are spendy! But stuffing screens into my TransAm just was not working out anymore! Too bad I got it used otherwise could have got that 100% SUV depreciation for tax purposes.

Originally posted by krasmuzik But stuffing screens into my TransAm just was not working out anymore! HA! I needed a good horse laugh this week. That did it! Thanks. Picturing that $3k stewart sticking out the side window of the Trans-am. HA!. Mucho tickled. Cheers, Scott

H79 just arrived via Saturday FedEx! Thanks Jason for all the help. And just in time for the Academy Awards marathon on Sunday. My wife is already concerned I'll be tweaking for the whole weekend - yeah baby!:p

Woohoo! goods news that now I'm not alone ;) Probably be a dozen or more new owners by the end of next week.

All you new owners tell the world how great this PJ is. I'm getting the impression some might be a little skeptical. ;)

Take a look at the torture test scenes for them.

LOTR the opening when the dwarfs receive their rings.

U571, the special opp scene, the Motorcycle guy

LOTR, scene Journey in the Darkness, all the actors as they move side to side.

All these scenes will play without the waves distortion as they play on other projectors. They are poor quality scenes and will look just blurry. People seem to prefer this way, instead of the contour wave dither.

lmk thx

Originally posted by scotthorton
Heehee. Yours must be smaller than mine screen that is. Those 8' rails from the top/bottom woudl be a tough fit in my car/pretend truck :D

And being as that 10 lb piece of fabric costs more than my 300 lb. 36" XBR HD TV, I'm not much for rolling it up and toting it aroung either! A PJ on the other hand, now that's portable...

Hey, it's shipped from Stewart rolled up. You just have to save the tube and protective cloth layer that was between the screen rolls....

Maybe this guy had a supersize highlander?? Are the new ones larger than the older models? The same 110"er you have fit with tons of room to spare in his rig.... oh well...

I agree on the projector portability. It's so much easier to do an in home demo with these digitals than trying to transport a 9 inch gun CRT :)

Hey Tom,

If you feel so compelled could you post some basic settings for me to get me started? I realize this is an individual thing but any ideas on where I might start would be great. It looks great out of the box but I know it will benefit from some tweaking. Man - that contrast is something to behold. Cheers.

H79 users should know that with DVI sources such as upconverting DVD players or HD satellite that 1:1 pixel mapping is lost if you select "16:9" under the "Format" button on the remote. You might naturally choose it as you would, say, when setting up your DVD player. Don't use this setting if you're inputting 720p or 1080i.

1:1 was obtained using "Native" as your choice instead. Kevin Anderson, who came over and did a great job performing an initial calibration (for use with a Hoya FLD), and discovered this using a Accupel HD patterns designed to detect 1:1.

Even in low brightness mode the pj is bright, granted with a new bulb, projected onto a High Power and and viewing from well within the viewing cone. This brightness is the reason I'm using a filter now, pending dimming and aging of the bulb. I see the improvement in contrast over the HD2. I still wish black in overall dark scenes were blacker but it is better. I've observed some contouring in rare scenes, like the orange swirling mist at the intro to Gladiator, but on the other hand there is less contouring in Gandalf's torch in the Mines of Moria scene. In that same scene, the clay face look on the characters as they set out isn't there for me and pans overall look at least as good as they did on my BenQ 8700. The increased fill factor is nice but I still have to defocus a bit at 14.5 ft away using the max 133" diagonal of my screen.

Dan

Edit: I'll post some settings for D65 for my projector and setup after 200 hours or so on the bulb - maybe late next week :)

Originally posted by sotagear
Hey Tom,

If you feel so compelled could you post some basic settings for me to get me started? I realize this is an individual thing but any ideas on where I might start would be great. It looks great out of the box but I know it will benefit from some tweaking. Man - that contrast is something to behold. Cheers.

I hope you have Avia or you could use the THX optimizers to start.

Picture menu use Cinema and gamma 2

Image menu use Film, zero white peak, try color temp1.

If you use the THX opt. you can at least set the blacks and whites correctly for your DVD setup. Then use your eye to set color saturation.

Originally posted by drapp1952
The increased fill factor is nice but I still have to defocus a bit at 14.5 ft away using the max 133" diagonal of my screen.

Is the increased fill factor something that you can actually see when looking up close? From HD2 to HD2+ it seemed like I could sit a few inches closer, but don't remember the fill factor being enough different that I could tell which was which (although looking at the dimple I might have been able to).

--Darin

I'm going to be mating a Denon 3910 to the H79. The 3910 has HDMI and DVI outputs. I was planning on using a DVI to DVI connection to the H79. Any reason not to and use an HDMI to DVI instead?

Doesn't matter which digital cable. Which ever works better setup wise for you. Since I already own a DVI I'll continue with that , others for routing purposes may prefer HDMI for the small ends.

Darin, from a foot or less away from the screen the mirror edges do seem a little closer to each other and cleaner than on my 8700. The lack of dimple is quite noticeable between the HD2 DC1 and the DC3 from looking at the photos in that proprietary TI paper posted and pulled a little while ago. I can barely make the dimple out at all with the H79.

I overstated it to say I can see a clear difference in fill factor per se from 14.5 feet away. In thinking about what I'm seeing, though, defocusing may be incrementally more effective on the DC3 because there's less mirror, especially dimple, structure up there on the screen to have to smear.

Dan

I picked up my H79 at FedEx today. I have a busy night planned, but I'll probably have time to squeeze in a few minutes with the projector. That should be plenty of time to review the torture test scenes (LOTR dwarf ring acceptance scene, Gandalf vs. Saruman, Starship Troopers bootcamp, etc.).

As I've stated previously, other than the optical issues my H77 had (which I believe/hope were a defect), the panning artifact was my main criticism. I would be very pleased to see uniform focus and minimal panning artifacts on the H79 because it would finally mean the end of a long search.

If I have the time, I'll also try to do a basic D65 calibration with Progressive Labs and check the accuracy of the color decoder.

Looking forward to your review thirdkind!

Brent

" Woohoo! goods news that now I'm not alone Probably be a dozen or more new owners by the end of next week. " -

I should have mine on Wed. !!!

Originally posted by thirdkind
I picked up my H79 at FedEx today. I have a busy night planned, but I'll probably have time to squeeze in a few minutes with the projector. That should be plenty of time to review the torture test scenes (LOTR dwarf ring acceptance scene, Gandalf vs. Saruman, Starship Troopers bootcamp, etc.).

If you have spider-man 2, try the scene where Peter is dragging his busted bike past the posters of MJ. I should be at the end of the chapter that starts with the spidy in the elevator. I found the panning breakup to be much worse on that scene than any of the ones you mentioned.

Just out of curiosity, do these examples of movie clips to look for panning issues happen to most of the other popular projectors on this forum, or is this just an H77 problem? One reason I ask is because I have seen panning/motion problems in every type of digital display I've looked at the last 2 years. In fact I also see them in the movie theater from time to time, though I've never considered not going back to that theater. If this is just an Optoma H77 or H79 thing I could understand all the concern. Otherwise it seems to be an exercise in futility since "all" digital display technologies seem to have either different degrees of this same problem or have some other semi-noticable problem that can be found, then in turn, put under a microscope in this forum.

I bring this up because I have seen stuff like this happen in every thread for every popular display. Most people are enjoying their purchase in the first 50 posts, then someone mentions a problem they see on ocassion that sparks everyone to disect it & look hard for it. Then it gets tons of thread time & all of a sudden it becomes this serious reason to completely disregard a great product. Don't get me wrong, I agree these forums are great for discussing all matter of plusses & minuses of each product, but I really hate seeing stuff get to a stage where people get a bit goofy over seemingly inconsistent abnormalities.

Am I alone in this observation, or am I missing a bigger point?

BTW, First time with the H79 was the Oscars last night in HD. Amazing contrast and the sharpness & look of the colors were great considering I was using mostly out of the box settings. My wife loves the new projector & many of the guests I had over thought it looked like a 92" plasma. Actually I think it looks better overall than any plasma I've seen.

NOTE: This comment only relates to feeding a 720p digital signal (DVI or HDMI) from an upconverting DVD player or from a FOX or ABC HDTV broadcast (which are in 720p) to the Optoma H79

If the native resolution of a digital display device (LCD, DLP, Plasma) is 1280 x 720 @ 60hz (hereinafter “720p”), and you feed it a pure 720p signal over a digital connection (DVI or HDMI), you should get 1x1 pixel mapping – meaning that every pixel of video information falls exactly where it should on the 1280 x 720 matrix of the digital display device (because of analog conversions, it is much more difficult to achieve 1x1 pixel mapping using component).

The Accupel signal generator (www.accupel.com ) outputs a pure 720p multi-burst pattern of five vertical columns at 5,4,3,2,1 pixel widths at 7.4, 9.3, 12.4, 18.5, 37.1 MHz respectively (see attached photo ). If you have 1x1 pixel mapping on the display device, you will see a perfect pattern on the 5th multi-burst column of alternating black and white stripes of exactly 1 pixel width. If you do not have 1x1 pixel mapping, you will see artifacts such as vertical banding or smearing of the black and white stripes.

Dan Rapp and I spent most of Saturday calibrating his H79, and we were running into some real challenges. First, we could not eliminate a pesky hump in color temp readings at 60-80 IRE . When I put up the 720p multi-burst pattern from the Accupel (using a DVI connection) we saw vertical banding or smearing on the 1-pixel stripes, which evidenced processing artifacts that are normally only seen when a 720p projector upconverts 480i or 480p or downconverts 1080i. I was certain there was some kind of processing going on if we couldn’t get a perfect 1x1 pixel mapping with a 720p signal.

As Dan mentioned, we ultimately discovered that by changing the “format” option from “16x9” to “native,” we eliminated the artifact and achieved 1x1 pixel mapping. It also eliminated the odd hump we were getting in the grayscale tracking.

Since logic would suggest that the “16x9” format is the correct setting, I think it is important for anyone feeding a 720p signal to the Optoma H79 to use the “native” format to avoid unnecessary artifacts.

I would be curious to know if anyone who has observed the processing artifacts mentioned in this thread (e.g., the MJ billboard in Spiderman 2) were using a 720p upconverting DVD player connected by DVI or HDMI.

Others have pointed out that these picture " flaws " do happen to show up on other brands and models of projectors. I will be interested to see my new H79 because my H76 does not exhibit these picture abnormalities at all that I can see. Neither does my NEC HT1000.

Kevin,

Thanks for your input. It's commonly understood that "native" is the correct setting for true 1:1 display. Anything else brings the projector's scaler into play.

sotagear,

It's true that the panning artifact appears in other displays. The question is, to what extent? I've seen the Z90, 10K, 12K, Domino 30H, and H77. The 12K was almost perfect when it came to pans. Very little clayface or breakup. The H77 was the worst front projector I've seen so far in terms of motion dither.

There are many variables that contribute to panning artifacts: mirror speed, number of color wheel segments, image processing, etc. Some displays will be better than others.

Hopefully, I'll have time later tonight to take a quick look at the H79 and determine whether Optoma was able to make use of the faster mirrors on the DC3 DMD and minimize their panning problems.

Originally posted by sotagear
Just out of curiosity, do these examples of movie clips to look for panning issues happen to most of the other popular projectors on this forum, or is this just an H77 problem?...

Yes, other digital displays do have problems with pans. The DLP technology has a very distinct panning artifact. Regardless if people want to admit it on not, the H77 has a problem with pans in addition to the normal DLP panning artifacts. Optoma admits it. They have released at least two firmware updates to specifically address the panning. Based on my demo of the H77, the panning artifacts on other DLP projectors is no where near as bad as the H77.

I had an opportunity to compare the H77 directly against another DLP projector and although yes, both projectors will blur during some pans, the H77 has a distinct image breakup and banding that occurs under certain pans that is very specific to the h77. You can check out my mini-review here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5184983#post5184983) I also created a picture to give people an idea what it looks like. As I mentioned in my review, it is much easier to see the artifact with the Spiderman 2 clip than it is with Starship Troopers or LOTR's.

After viewing on my Sharp 9k for three years, the panning artifact on the H77 was immediately noticeable. There is clearly more noise in the pans than in any other DLP projector I have ever seen.

It's your choice not to believe the people who have reported the problem. I had an opportunity to decode for my self and I concur with all the reports. I'm curious to see what thirdkind has to say about the H79. I tend to believe his opinion over most. I know he has had experience with many DLP projectors including ones I have owned.

Originally posted by Kevin R. Anderson
I would be curious to know if anyone who has observed the processing artifacts mentioned in this thread (e.g., the MJ billboard in Spiderman 2) were using a 720p upconverting DVD player connected by DVI or HDMI.

I know this is a h79 thread, but because the Spiderman 2 clip was suggested by me I figured I would answer. I do hope the h79 is better than the h77.

All of my tests on the H77 were from a HTPC 720p feed over DVI using 1to1 pixel mapping on the "native" format mode. Pans were the same regardless of "native" or "16/9" format mode. We didn't do a color calibration.

Brad

Originally posted by bdavidson


It's your choice not to believe the people who have reported the problem.

Oh I believe every one of the posts that said they saw the panning effect. My point was, does this particular problem amount to enough worry & discussion to completely discount any projector, for most folks. I know there are some anomolies that are just not tolerable to one person & completely acceptable, or even not noticed by another. It just seems that this panning thing, like many anomolies spotted among digital processors, is likely just another in a series of minor problems most products have that may not be worthy of seeking out, especially if it's only notiiced by occasional parts of some movies. Or maybe it's just that I got tired of reading about it on the H77 thread & thought it was a bit over the top. Not sure.:o

Every movie used to show this artifact ( Spiderman for one, LOTR for another ) happens to be a movie I no interest in watching and don't own. Does it show up on T2 or any Matrix movies or I Robot? And if not, why not?

Oh - I saw " Starship Troopers bootcamp " mentioned - that I have. Which particular scene??

Does this panning problem show up in any of the 3 original Star Wars movies? Those I got too !!

Originally posted by sotagear
Oh I believe every one of the posts that said they saw the panning effect. My point was, does this particular problem amount to enough worry & discussion to completely discount any projector, for most folks. I know there are some anomolies that are just not tolerable to one person & completely acceptable, or even not noticed by another. It just seems that this panning thing, like many anomolies spotted among digital processors, is likely just another in a series of minor problems most products have that may not be worthy of seeking out, especially if it's only notiiced by occasional parts of some movies. Or maybe it's just that I got tired of reading about it on the H77 thread & thought it was a bit over the top. Not sure.:o

I would not consider the panning of the H77 minor. If I could I would return the projector for a refund. I've review a few DLP projectors (Davis DL450, Infocus 4805, Domino 20, Benq 8700+, Infocus 7205 none of those projector had panning problem as severe as the H77.

Is it major for everyone? No. I point it out to my wife and she never see it by herself. But I see the problem often. You don't see it in most movie. Then you see a lot of it on specific one.

It always append in dark seen with light colors in it. The worst I've seen it is in cartoons. I saw some in Catwoman as well. I look at most fight scene in Matrix reloaded and saw none.

I'm waiting to see if the H79 has it. If not, I will upgrade. Optoma offered it to me. My projector his only 2 weeks old.

Bruno

Bruno, I have not seen the H77 but based on what I have seen of the H79 I would take the upgrade. I checked out the Spiderman 2 poster test described above and I'd have to A-B compare to see if there's a problem; that's how subtle it is if it's there at all. Going by my memory of two years plus with the BenQ 8700 I don't think the H79 has an issue here any more than other DLPs, assuming the 8700 is like most DLPs in this regard.

Of course you'll have to see for yourself and I'm curious what your perception will be.

Dan

I just spent an hour or so with my H79 and HTPC connected via DVI. For playback, I use Zoomplayer with ffshow post processing (used for its superior Lanczos scaling algorithm only, no noise reduction or other processing).

I played the typical torture test clips I've used previously for the panning/motion dither artifact, specifically, the scene in the LOTR intro where the dwarves are given their rings, the fight scene between Gandalf and Saruman where Saruman twirls Gandalf around and around on the floor, and the Starship Troopers bootcamp scene where the drill sergeant walks in front of the company as the camera pans across them.

It's also pretty easy--if you know what to look for--to pick out motion/panning artifacts during many moving sequences in pretty much any movie. It's probably the one DLP artifact that annoys me more than any other.

Here's what all you prospective H79 buyers have been waiting for...

I am happy to report that the panning issues plaguing the H77 are a complete non-issue on the H79.

As a matter of fact, the H79 probably handles pans and motion better than any DLP I've seen--including the Sharp 12K, my previous favorite in this regard. Motion is smooth, and detail remains high during even the most difficult scenes.

I was especially impressed with the Gandalf/Saruman fight scene. Gandalf breaks up into a pixelated mess on the H77, but the scene looks perfect on the H79.

While I forgot to check the Spider-Man 2 poster scene, I have seen it on other DLPs and know that it does serve as a good torture test for motion artifacts. I'll check it just in case, but given the H79's performance on my favorite test scenes, I have no doubt that its handling of the Spider-Man 2 poster scene will be among the best we can expect from this latest generation of HD2+ DLPs.

No comments on anything else because I didn't have time to break out Progressive Labs. I expect good results though.

I think Optoma could have a real winner on their hands.

Originally posted by thirdkind
I just spent an hour or so with my H79 and HTPC connected via DVI. For playback, I use Zoomplayer with ffshow post processing (used for its superior Lanczos scaling algorithm only, no noise reduction or other processing).
Thanks for the update. Have you ever tried 720p@48Hz? Might be interesting. I'm guessing these results were at 60Hz.

--Darin

Yeah, my tests were at 60Hz.

I tried getting my FX5700 to do 48Hz with the Sim2 I had previously because I knew for a fact that the Sim2's sync at 48Hz, but it didn't seem to work with Nvidia's custom resolution/refresh driver tools. The drivers would report 48Hz, but the Sim2 would report 60Hz.

I'll have to try Powerstrip, which I abandoned a while ago once Nvidia's drivers started supporting 1280x720 natively.

It would be easier if I still had my iScan HD. Sold it not too long ago, unfortunately.

I'm not into dlp dither motion (sri) no biggie. But I do like the pop and 3D image the H79 seems to have over other PJ's I've had. It's a weener alright. :)

Thirdkind, all your text is about dither motion. Nothing about the image, pop the picture?

How does it look?
thx

Originally posted by thirdkind
I am happy to report that the panning issues plaguing the H77 are a complete non-issue on the H79.

As a matter of fact, the H79 probably handles pans and motion better than any DLP I've seen--including the Sharp 12K, my previous favorite in this regard. Motion is smooth, and detail remains high during even the most difficult scenes.

Right. Glad that's sorted out now that my arse is on the chopping block. Yikes!:)

As I said, no comments until it's properly calibrated.

I find impressions at anything other than D65 (up to and including 100 IRE) to be meaningless. I could take any projector I've owned, push the contrast and color saturation, and claim it has "pop".

I don't think Optoma's handling of color or the H79's ability to get a good greyscale are the issues on most people's minds right now. I think most of us know what to expect from Optoma in these areas.

Motion dither is a glaring flaw on the H77, and I think more people are interested in knowing if the H79 suffers from the same problem than are interested in reading yet another post talking about Optoma's great colors and punchy image.

I'm not here to sell projectors for Optoma. I'm here to help those who consider the H79 a big expense decide whether or not it's worth their hard-earned money. Hence the the very thorough critique of its ability to process motion.

I'll offer my opinions on everything else once my H79 is dialed in.

Originally posted by thirdkind

While I forgot to check the Spider-Man 2 poster scene, I have seen it on other DLPs and know that it does serve as a good torture test for motion artifacts. I'll check it just in case, but given the H79's performance on my favorite test scenes, I have no doubt that its handling of the Spider-Man 2 poster scene will be among the best we can expect from this latest generation of HD2+ DLPs.


I specifically tried this scene on my H79. Didn't see any issues with MJ in the background... SJ

Originally posted by sotagear
Right. Glad that's sorted out now that my arse is on the chopping block. Yikes!:)

lol, your heads not on the chopping block. You can read. :)

It's a very small group who are sensitive. Maybe a half dozen or less. 99 percent are or were never bothered. The members who know what to look for want some gratification, so yes I could see it in the odd scenes. I could see it in most all the pj's I have. But like I said it's no biggie for me. Not bothered at all. I can say that can't I? :)

The 79 plays them better but even here it's no big money deciding factor. I'm more into the brightness/3D of the image, that's something I'd pay up for.

rant over

Oh, I just had the journey in the darkness scene pass by, I'm viewing the NEC HT1000. A pixelated mess lol, just awfull. Funny how we never spoke of this for years in the many happy HT1000 owners thread. :)

Tom,

That's because I never owned an HT1000;)!!!

lol,

My HT1000 is still looking good for both HDTV ( 24 was great last night ) and 4:3 like Singing In The Rain and music videos - still love mine and it isn't going anywhere! Now if the H79 has black levels that meet or exceed the HT1000's along with all the other picture improvements that go with the DC3 chip - I'm going to be very happy! I'll know tommorrow!!

thirdkinds report leads me to believe that what others on this board thought about the H77 might be true for those that see it - the 8 segment wheel along with the processing were a little too slow to keep up on the pans at times. I don't see the panning problem with the H76 and its 6 segment wheel either. Very interesting.

thirdkind,

When you comment more later, could you compare the H79's internal processing with what you're getting from your HTPC?

Thanks

I swaped out the roller and screen material in my Dalite Cosmo this weekend. Went from Mat White to High Power (92"wide). Findings are High Power is too bright with the H79. It's helpful with the H77 and HT1000. With the H79 I'll have to wait for the bulb to die out some. I'm using econo mode and the PJ is ceiling mounted also. I'd guess the 1.3 gain could be a better match for the 79.

My 1.3 CV 2.35:1 screen is looking good with the H76, so I am going to imagine ( but only until tommorrow night - woo hoo ) that my new H79 will look awesome on it with wide screen movies!! And the smaller 1.85:1 HCCV should work well too really - can't wait to see those black levels on that!!

Craig, could you post your impressions of the H79 with the CV and HCCV once you've had a chance to view. I'm still deciding on my screen.

Looks like it's going to be a big week for the projector family. Happy contrast guys/happy motion sensitive guys. Looks to be a great week all around. :)

With all the bases covered thirdkind will be right. You'll have a winner on your hands. Lowest price/low sound level, super picture - it's almost too good somethings gotta go wrong. ;)

" it's almost too good somethings gotta go wrong " - we can complain we don't have Blu Ray or HD DVD's yet - how's that?

" Craig, could you post your impressions of the H79 with the CV and HCCV once you've had a chance to view. I'm still deciding on my screen " - no problem - give me until this weekend.

Hey Craig, just got some food for the 4.3 HT1000, delivered from Amazon.

Says -

Warner Bros. Pictures
GANGSTERS -collection :)

Public Enemy
White Heat
Angels With Dirty Faces
Little Caesar
The Petrified Forest
The Roaring Twenties

oh boy!

For the H79 I got the two
Invasion of the Body Snatchers flicks, the early Kevin McCarthy and later Donald Sutherland w/mr spock also.

The projectors need their food.

My guess is both those screens are going to work great with the 79.
Tomorrows the day, enjoy

Thanks Tom - we always have a steady trickle of new ( or just new to me ) DVD's coming. U 571, Fast and the Furious, I can't remember what else is on its way! I really have no doubt the H79 will work great with my two screen / 3 screen format concept!!

Someone asked to see how the H79 holds up with light in the room.

The family/theater room is next to a kitchen and dinning room. Here I left the curtains open and the kitchen light on, plus a light 3feet from the screen.

The screen
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79light.jpg

Rooms just behind the projector mount.
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79light1.jpg

Closed down the light, a couple of shots with the High Power screen.

Comcast Fox 480p
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79highpower.jpg

DVD 720p DVI, cheap Toshiba player SD5970
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79highpower1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79highpower2.jpg

Tom, that was me who requested to see the shots with light. Thanks for posting those. I have already ordered my H79, so it's reassuring to see that it looks good with ambient light. Also nice to see that 480p looks so good.

Hi all

Just registered but have been reading the H77/H79 threads for a while and am looking to get one or the other of these to replace my HS10.

Would any of you be able to check the H79 with PAL material (progessive and interlaced)? I appreciate that this is not something that would interest the bulk of the posters in the US!

Are US Optoma retailers allowed to ship outside the US because it does not look like we are getting the H79 in the UK?

Cheers
Rob

I think the euro model will be called H77a. There is a CWI 50hz & CWI 60hz in our service mode. So if someone here can test a PAL signal these may help if they run into a signal problem. Me I don't have one PAL disc, sri
good luck

You can buy from the US, not sure how you'll handle warranty work. You may have to send the PJ back to the US.

Originally posted by thirdkind

I played the typical torture test clips I've used previously for the panning/motion dither artifact, specifically, the scene in the LOTR intro where the dwarves are given their rings, the fight scene between Gandalf and Saruman where Saruman twirls Gandalf around and around on the floor, and the Starship Troopers bootcamp scene where the drill sergeant walks in front of the company as the camera pans across them.


I don't think we have the same tolerance for panning. I check the fight scene between Gandalf and Saruman on my H77 last night. I watch it 3 times and got closer to the screen. I don't see anything. I don't quite understand because I do see a lot of panning problems myself. Can you check the scene when the fellowship get in the mines? It's at a beginning of a chapter on the second DVD of the extended version. Gandalf make some light and Legolas pass in front of the screen with the light source behind him. Look at his face. Not to good.

In Catwoman. Chapter two. Halle walk with her friend in the office and the wall on your left with painting on it look funny.

I tried does scenes last night and compared them to my old Viewsonic PJL830. The old DLP play them without any problems. Everything look good and smooth.
The Viewsonic seem sharper. The H77 seems out of focus when there is mouvement in the picture.

Bruno

My H79 just arrived at work via FED X - yippy ( except I'm still at work for another 3 hours - boo )!!

Originally posted by Craig Peer
My H79 just arrived at work via FED X - yippy ( except I'm still at work for another 3 hours - boo )!!
Do you still have the H76? It would be interesting to hear if you see a difference in the fill factor (SDE lines) up close.

--Darin

yes I do and I'll see what kind of comparison test I can do this weekend.

"Originally posted by thirdkind

I played the typical torture test clips I've used previously for the panning/motion dither artifact, specifically, the scene in the LOTR intro where the dwarves are given their rings, the fight scene between Gandalf and Saruman where Saruman twirls Gandalf around and around on the floor, and the Starship Troopers bootcamp scene where the drill sergeant walks in front of the company as the camera pans across them"

Originally posted by bgosselin
I don't think we have the same tolerance for panning. I check the fight scene between Gandalf and Saruman on my H77 last night. I watch it 3 times and got closer to the screen. I don't see anything. I don't quite understand because I do see a lot of panning problems myself. Can you check the scene when the fellowship get in the mines? It's at a beginning of a chapter on the second DVD of the extended version. Gandalf make some light and Legolas pass in front of the screen with the light source behind him. Look at his face. Not to good.

In Catwoman. Chapter two. Halle walk with her friend in the office and the wall on your left with painting on it look funny.

I tried does scenes last night and compared them to my old Viewsonic PJL830. The old DLP play them without any problems. Everything look good and smooth.
The Viewsonic seem sharper. The H77 seems out of focus when there is mouvement in the picture.

Bruno

Bruno,
I wouldn't worry about it just about every digital display will play the scenes a little funky.

Here I started a thread on this in December.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=468975

So can we hope that H79 has solved the dithering problem?

Originally posted by guitarman
"Originally posted by thirdkind

I played the typical torture test clips I've used previously for the panning/motion dither artifact, specifically, the scene in the LOTR intro where the dwarves are given their rings, the fight scene between Gandalf and Saruman where Saruman twirls Gandalf around and around on the floor, and the Starship Troopers bootcamp scene where the drill sergeant walks in front of the company as the camera pans across them"



Bruno,
I wouldn't worry about it just about every digital display will play the scenes a little funky.

Here I started a thread on this in December.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=468975


The LOTR scene and Catwoman scene plays well on my Viewsonic. I guess the 1x colorwheel give plenty of time to the mirror to flip.

I've seen worst scene in two anime. Reboot: My two bob and in Mulan.

Once again my Viewsonic plays them without any problem.

Are you saying the H79 plays them similar to the H77? a little bit better? or way better?

Way better but is it worth 3 or 4 grand to you to get the clips to play better? You will get an overall better image quality for the upgrade, nicer blacks and contrast, looks way brighter also.

My HT1000 six/seg five speed wheel plays the LOTR clip worse than the H77.

Quite a lot of us find the issue to be very annoying, included myself.
I have a SP7200, and - believe me - it is a real pita.
I only have a very small passage where to fit the projector, and I was looking at 7210, hoping that even if smaller, it could have the same good-looking pans as H79, with the lesser amount of dithering. Have you seen one of these?

7210, not yet, stands to reason the quicker mirrors will help though.

I think I can see the 7210 at Bestbuy/Magnolia this weekend. Guess I should bring my LOTR dvd. What kind of contrast increase do they state for the 7210 over the 7205?

It's stated as 2800:1 for the 7210. Not as big an increase as the H79.

Looks like it will be next weekend for the 7210.

Craig, will you be firing up the H79 tonight?

Hopefully, if the swap out goes as planned and no other domestic chores interfere. Got to watch Alias on it in HD, eh?

Craig, how long did it take to receive yours? I ordered on Sunday and I am anxiously awaiting its arrival!

Due to technical sales reasons mine had to do a tour of the US before it got to me - about a week!

H79 ordered.

Looking for 96 inch fixed wall screen that can fit in 89.5 inch wall.

Considering CARADA Precision Series Screen 96 inch 1.78:1 with Classic Cinema White (1.0 gain). Would 'Brilliant White (1.4 gain)' too bright?

It will be in the basement media room w/o any window with the standard white drywall.

About 15-16 feet throw distance.

Will 1.0 gain be OK?

Thanks!

I am interested in the H79 also. Can those of you that already ordered or recieved yours let me know where to order from and who has the best prices ? Could you please PM me if you don't want to mention prices ?

Thanks, Mike

Originally posted by Craig Peer
Due to technical sales reasons mine had to do a tour of the US before it got to me - about a week!

Did the same. It's a California thang.

I ordered one yesterday from Jason

Originally posted by hellcat
H79 ordered.

Looking for 96 inch fixed wall screen that can fit in 89.5 inch wall.

Considering CARADA Precision Series Screen 96 inch 1.78:1 with Classic Cinema White (1.0 gain). Would 'Brilliant White (1.4 gain)' too bright?

It will be in the basement media room w/o any window with the standard white drywall.

About 15-16 feet throw distance.

Will 1.0 gain be OK?

Thanks!

Doesn't hurt to have a little extra gain so I would get the 1.4. Looking at the high power screen black level certainly isn't effected. Still very 3D.

Where's the best place to get the Optoma H79? I can't find any online reseller or local retailer who has them.

PSB,

Call this number:

Jason Turk
Sales Manager
A/V Science, Inc./AVS Forum, Inc.
585-454-1460 x10

Frank

PSB: Check your search engine, there is one listed by an Internet dealer on the first page of a google search. use Optoma 79 as the term

Got the H79 installed last night, did a little calibration of the white and black levels, and watched a bit of various dvd's. While I wasn't unhappy with the picture my H76 was putting out, I must say that the H79 appears a bit sharper, a little clearer, and blacks on my white 106" x 45.25" CV screen appear as dark or darker than blacks from my HT1000 on my 92" wide grey HCCV screen. Which gives the picture great punch! All in all I'm very pleased so far. More as I watch it more.

I think you'll notice the biggest difference with HDTV. The extra contrast and blacks really make HDTV stand out, plus whites are so high up on purity of white. It's almost like you're using max white peaking.

Here's the screen door on the H79.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79sd.jpg

Tuff to tell anything from a screenshot other than the black around the pixel looks distinct. I noticed this when going from 12degree mirrors to HD2+. This is where the blacks started getting better.

I can't wait to watch a movie tonite on the H79 with the wife and neighbors! At this point it doesn't even matter which one!! By Monday I should have more time with it and more comments regarding its performance!

Lets see, you just picked up Fast & Furious, that's a wicked transfer that should look unbelievable with the H79. Really this thing is a reference projector, time will tell you'll see.

How about some HDTV, that's where it starts to go into strato gear. I hv Master Commander, Underworld and the Super Bowl stored on the Comcast PVR. I hv no problem watching the SB half time show a few times.
enjoy

Just got mine today, ordered on the 2nd. Since This is my first projector it will take a while to get up to speed. Need to upgrade my dish and OTA antenna to HD. , Pull cables in the ceiling, hang screen (when it comes), etc. But out of the box on a painted white wall in my very white office it's very watchable at 100 inches.

Question to you veterans. Other than a dvi and a component cable is their any need to pull anything else for this toy? Plan on playing DVDs, Satellite, OTA HD and later a media center PC. I realize I'll need some switching capabilities for the multiple dvi sources. It also looks like I'm in the first 10 markets for the new satellite Mpeg4 offerings later this year otherwise I'd be wanting a HD-DVR NOW!

Guitarman I used to live off of Ygnacio and Pine Hollow.

Originally posted by guitarman
7210, not yet, stands to reason the quicker mirrors will help though.

I think I can see the 7210 at Bestbuy/Magnolia this weekend. Guess I should bring my LOTR dvd. What kind of contrast increase do they state for the 7210 over the 7205?

I was in the Best Buy/Magnolia store near us and they still have a 7205 mounted projecting on a Firehawk. Have not gone to the Magnolia in San Ramon yet to see if they have a 7210.

One thing I noticed on the 7205 is that the screen door seems more pronounced on the unit vs. the H77 and H79 (which should be a little better because of the DarkChip3). Don't know why, but it seems more noticeable now to me on the 7205 than I remember from my H77. May have been the way it was calibrated or the overall additional brightness of the unit (vs. the H77). Maybe I'm now geared towards the H79 which really seems to shine in all areas. Check it out if you go into the store. SJ

Originally posted by BIGmouthinDC
Just got mine today, ordered on the 2nd. Since This is my first projector it will take a while to get up to speed. Need to upgrade my dish and OTA antenna to HD. , Pull cables in the ceiling, hang screen (when it comes), etc. But out of the box on a painted white wall in my very white office it's very watchable at 100 inches.

Question to you veterans. Other than a dvi and a component cable is their any need to pull anything else for this toy? Plan on playing DVDs, Satellite, OTA HD and later a media center PC. I realize I'll need some switching capabilities for the multiple dvi sources. It also looks like I'm in the first 10 markets for the new satellite Mpeg4 offerings later this year otherwise I'd be wanting a HD-DVR NOW!

Guitarman I used to live off of Ygnacio and Pine Hollow.

Holly hell, I take Pine Hollow home every day. I live in Clayton in Regency Wood.

I just have component DVI and S-video, S-video for a Relpay TV.

BigmouthinDC ...

If you are running anything longer than 5 meters make sure you buy a good DVI cable.. or an HDMI with an adapter... depends on what sources you are going to ultimately be using for the foreseeable future..

Guitarman... what would you say is the lumen output of the H79.. I am trying to get the H79 in the near future for another Canuck Shootout..
Has anyone tried it on a Studiotek 130.. ?? I don't want to do as many screens this year... or maybe will do split screens... Anyone know when Joe Kane will be releasing his new Pro version of Digital Video Essentials.. I liked what I saw at CES and was hoping to use some of the HD shots on the disk for the shootout.. can't seem to get a hold of Joe...

Cheers

Robert

Darin,

I need to decide between and 300E and a H79 before the weekend is over. Can you PLEASE, post what the lumens are for the H79 calibrated to D65 for "normal" and "high" output modes?

It would be GREATLY appreciated!

Frank

Mandarax, yes cable length will be about 30 ft.

Is there a difference in long length performance between DVI and HDMI cables and do you have any favorites?

Originally posted by mandarax
BigmouthinDC ...

If you are running anything longer than 5 meters make sure you buy a good DVI cable.. or an HDMI with an adapter... depends on what sources you are going to ultimately be using for the foreseeable future..

Guitarman... what would you say is the lumen output of the H79.. I am trying to get the H79 in the near future for another Canuck Shootout..
Has anyone tried it on a Studiotek 130.. ?? I don't want to do as many screens this year... or maybe will do split screens... Anyone know when Joe Kane will be releasing his new Pro version of Digital Video Essentials.. I liked what I saw at CES and was hoping to use some of the HD shots on the disk for the shootout.. can't seem to get a hold of Joe...

Cheers

Robert

I got about 17.25ftlamberts with the light meter at screen distance facing the projector. I think the help I got calculating that out was 515lumens - pj tuned down to D65k.

You should know 515lumens at D65k is very high. Most every top HT model will usually fall way lower than this when tuned to 65k.

I think the help I got calculating that out was 515lumens - pj tuned down to D65k

Tom,

Yikes, I thought you were getting 550-570 lumens calibrated on "normal" lamp mode. If you are only getting 515, the 300E is > 100 lumens higher calibrated and has a C/R of 3500:1 calibrated. Of course, it is $2K more...

Frank

Originally posted by ftlee
I need to decide between and 300E and a H79 before the weekend is over. Can you PLEASE, post what the lumens are for the H79 calibrated to D65 for "normal" and "high" output modes?

I'm sorry. I don't know. Guitarman posted at least one of his numbers. I'm not sure if anybody has posted the numbers for the two lamp modes, but it would seem that it would be pretty easy for an H79 owner to measure the percentage difference between high and low lamp and give those. I don't think the lamp has changed since the H77 so even finding the percentage difference between the two lamp modes for that one should give you that info.
Yikes, I thought you were getting 550-570 lumens calibrated on "normal" lamp mode. If you are only getting 515, the 300E is > 100 lumens higher calibrated and has a C/R of 3500:1 calibrated. Of course, it is $2K more...

Where did you get the numbers for the HT300E? That would be pretty impressive if true. Has somebody actually measured that the CR is 3500:1 at D65 on the HT300E? I don't put much faith in just the word "true" in front of specs.

--Darin

Originally posted by BIGmouthinDC
Mandarax, yes cable length will be about 30 ft.

Is there a difference in long length performance between DVI and HDMI cables and do you have any favorites? Call Shane Sangster (hometheaterdoc.com). He tested the lot of avail 30' DVI's for me and my H77. Some worked, several didn't. I ended up getting one provided by VInc since I had their DVD player at the time. But Shane tested all the popular brands. Some of them DID NOT work (sparklies). He'll know which of the name brand ones worked, and may still have some of them.

As for cables, I recommend a DVI and a component set. If you are getting or have a newer AV receiver or processor, most will convert and switch from all the other inputs (i.e. composite, Svideo, etc.) to component. I use DVI for my DVD player and component from my receiver to the PJ. I pass the HD STB output via compoonent to the receiver, and other inputs (e.g. video camera or game box Svideo) to the receiver which then converts to component (and handles switching).

HTH,
Scott

Originally posted by darinp2
Where did you get the numbers for the HT300E? That would be pretty impressive if true. Has somebody actually measured that the CR is 3500:1 at D65 on the HT300E? I don't put much faith in just the word "true" in front of specs. I tested one and it wasn't even close to that amount of output. But apparantly ftlee dosen't believe me :). Think of in terms of blub wattage if you don't believe me, I believe the H79 has got to be brighter. I wil have one on Wed and will measure it with the same meter I measured the 300E with, but that won't make the mentioned deadline..

Darin,

Yes, apparently the numbers are accurate. I got the numbers from two different sources. Each said the same thing about the projector being calibrated to D65.

I do not know why someone would not psot the numbers for the 300E. I am afraid to, why I do not know...

Frank

Scott,

Have you ever thought that maybe you have a bad unit/lamp? I have talked with two different sources that have calibrated their 300Es to D65 and their lumens output is > 3x what you said your unit was.

Also, angilasaurus from the forums indicated that he thought the 300E (on two of his three) was just shy of the 7205 in lumens. He wouldn't feel that way if it was only putting out 200 lumens.

Frank

Originally posted by ftlee
Have you ever thought that maybe you have a bad unit/lamp? I have taled with two different sources that have calibrated their 300Es to D65 and their lumens output is > 3x what you said your unit was. Anything is possible... I kept looking for a lens cap like the H79 has to remove :D. But in any event, I find it hard to believe it compared to the "light cannon" in output. Maybe after a FL2 filter moded 7205 (light cut in half). But you are right, mine may have had something wrong, maybe. It was almost new however, with about 80 hours or so on the bulb (Sim2's come with some hours already on them). Wasn't John's opinion based on seeing it at CES, not in his shop?

Scott,

Nope, John has had three of them at his shop. Do a search, one of them was at his projector shoot-out.

I am going to start another thread. I want the numbers posted!

Frank

Originally posted by ftlee
John has had three of them at his shop. Do a search, one of them was at his projector shoot-out. I see. I thought I asked him the same question [as you], but I must be mistaken, I asked a lot of folks a lot of questions about the 300E when I was considering it. Dosen't he have the # you are looking for?

I ruled the 300E out based on my experience with it and how relatively loud it was. If I had to pick today, it would be between the Marantz and the H79, and at at a $3k+ difference in street prices, the H79 would be the likely choice. Even if they cost the same, the H79 would be a worthy competitor. If they fixed the '77 panning then aside from ergo's and looks, it [H79] would be a clear winner (at street prices). Except for cost, the Marantz (S3) is nice, I presume it's predesessor will be a hair better (S4). They all (well of the 4 I've had personally in my home) have their quirks I've learned, no matter the price. If the 300E had been brighter I sill wouldn't have liked it as well as the Marantz, and possibly the H79 (yet to be seen next week) because of the noise factor. Best of luck on your quest, I'm paitently drafting :cool: . Cheers, Scott

ftlee

John (IntegrityHT) does not have calibration equipment - check with Shane (HomeTheaterDoc) - he has ColorFacts.

htprojectors.com has a review up of the SP7205 up against the Projection Design Action - which they liked better (being italian they like the projectors with those shiny sports car paint jobs :D). That is what I would get for your non-Infocus 123" Plasma simulator.

They use nits (cd/m2) in their reviews (damn old world and their metric system). However they use the spectroradiometer Eye-One ColorFacts off the screen - which I have seen is about 25% less than a direct projector measurement for 100IRE and very bad at black measurement. So 100 IRE will be off and contrast is unreliable. Also each was reviewed by a different reviewer with different screen measurements.

Anyways they have the PDA MkII at 40% brighter than the Infocus (calibrated). The disadvantage is the reds/blues are desaturated in the colorwheel to get that brightness - so you don't get brightness without a cost somewhere. The black level was the same - so the PDAMkII contrast is higher by 40%. They also have an engine upgrade policy.

They also reviewed the previous Sim2 (my subscription just ran out!) - contact Andreas Manuti he can get you the numbers.

John (IntegrityHT) does not have calibration equipment

Kras,

John was not one of the two people that had their 300Es calibrated. I never said that he was one of them. I only said that he thought it was just shy of the 7205 brightness.

Tom,

So, is 515 lumens the final number for the H79 calibrated to D65 in "normal" lamp mode?

P.S. I am not sure what to believe. Tom just indicated in a PM that the H79 is twice as bright as the H77 which I find hard to believe...

Frank

Originally posted by krasmuzik
They use nits (cd/m2) in their reviews (damn old world and their metric system). However they use the spectroradiometer Eye-One ColorFacts off the screen - which I have seen is about 25% less than a direct projector measurement for 100IRE and very bad at black measurement. So 100 IRE will be off and contrast is unreliable. Also each was reviewed by a different reviewer with different screen measurements. I agree about the black level measurement with the Eye-One. As far as the 100 IRE measurement, I measured off a High Power screen with my HD2K with both a Minolta LS110 lightmeter that I borrow from work and that I know gets professionally calibrated periodically and with my Eye-One and they read almost exactly the same (cd/m2). That is the only datapoint I have. What were your measurements and screen for the 25% conclusion?

Thanks,
Darin

I was just reading at Milori about the One-eye's accuracy tests. They say 30IRE it's within .002 I think and close with the Sencore. I never tune lower than 30, seems 20 or lower they say is for CRT. You've probably heard me say it before but I get very nice color results with the One-eye. I do have all the time in the world to wait for the 30IRE readings ;) plus jumping up for constant ahead of time new dark readings. :)

Originally posted by ftlee
P.S. I am not sure what to believe. Tom just indicated in a PM that the H79 is twice as bright as the H77 which I find hard to believe... Frank, for what it's worth, I have a H79 inbound via FedEx ground as we speak. Their tracking shows it to be due on Wed. IIRC, maybe Tue. I have the OpticOne system and a nice new light meter. I plan to measurme the H79, bright and econ modes at D65. BUT, the initial measurments will be on a new bulb. I will have a 7205 arrive on Mon/Tue (day before the H79) and plan to measure it, too. If you can wait till then... Cheers, Scott

Originally posted by ftlee
Kras,

John was not one of the two people that had their 300Es calibrated. I never said that he was one of them. I only said that he thought it was just shy of the 7205 brightness.

Tom,

So, is 515 lumens the final number for the H79 calibrated to D65 in "normal" lamp mode?

P.S. I am not sure what to believe. Tom just indicated in a PM that the H79 is twice as bright as the H77 which I find hard to believe...

Frank

Almost twice at this point in time bulb hr wise. I get about the10.00 level give or take a little with the H77. The H79 shows 17.25 give a little, becuase if I raise the meter one foot it will go to 19.00 something. In the end it's more than obivious the 79 is way brighter.
But the H77 does have about 500hrs and the 79's at 100hrs also. Tonight will be good timing for some more night time readings again.

Tom,

Please let us know the numbers as soon as you do.

Scott,

How long before you will post the numbers?

Thanks,

Frank

I might be able to add something to the various comments here with a comparison to my H77. I measured the H77 with a 60hour lamp at 510 lumens in high lamp mode, and 389 lumens in low lamp mode - that's alnost 25% difference. 100 hours later and it's dropped some more lumens already (I got some back by removing one of the two filters).

Tom says the H79 is twice as bright, which I find hard to believe, but that could well be true if both our figures are accurate.

Gary.

I'll get online early tonight with some numbers. I fear my H77 isn't as bright as it could be with all the on/offs and moving around it's gone thru. I'll concentrate on the H79.

Hi Tom,

I forget the numbers now, but I was surprised at how much it had dropped after just a further 100 hours. I would say that 500 hours would be considerably dimmer than the same lamo after just 100 hours though.

Might be an idea to take regular measurements Tom (every 50hours?), so we can all see how it dims over time. I'll try to do the same with my H77.

Gary.

darinp2

I am convinced that screens have light loss - if you can see the image on the back of the screen (some of them have black backings!)

But that is the delta I got with Eye-One vs. Spyder1. I am getting higher numbers now with my Spyder2 - the Spyder1 has tilted on it's readings towards red and was low on green.

Tom:

Literally raising the meter (perpindicular to the PJ) shouldn't make any significant difference. That's curious/interesting.

Frank:

Just went and checked the tracking #'s. 7205 scheduled to arrive Monday UPS. H79 is scheduled for Tue FedExG. Someone is normally home when both arrive but if not, an extra days delay could be introduced. I have a commitment Tue evening but I expect to have one or the other setup and running by Tue. night. Like Tom, due to some stray ambient from some windows, I have to wait until night to get measurments that I would be willing to post to the world. But I'll be happy to PM anything :). I feel some responsibility when posting this stuff because I know others like you and I are making decisions based on these type posts. So... barring anything unforseen, I'd expect to have some data on Wed evening, Thur. at the latest, it is possible but unlikely I could get a meas on the H79 on Tue. If you are anywhere near TN and want to see it for yourself, PM me.

HTH, Scott

Might be an idea to take regular measurements Tom (every 50hours?), so we can all see how it dims over time. I'll try to do the same with my H77. Gary, That's probably a good idea for alll of us with new PJ's and a light meter. Although possibly a depressing one leading to many bulb purchases :)

The disadvantage is the reds/blues are desaturated in the colorwheel to get that brightness - so you don't get brightness without a cost somewhere.
_____________________________________________________

Certainly no desaturation with the PD Action.

The "reds" for example would be the "reddest red" I have seen from a DLP.

I think the SIMS have a similar reputation!

scotthorton

Sure it will especially when measuring the screen. You are reducing the viewing angle as well as moving to screen center towards the hotspot. I forget exact number but DLPs are typically 80-90% uniform.

Fishooks,

I am commenting on the PDAmkII review in htprojectors.com - the CIE triangle was pretty bad. Coming from an HT1000 which also was not spectacular you may not see a true red/blue yet - it tends to smack you up side the head once you do.

I was suprised to see this as I though the PDA crew was more videophile than that - but it would explain it being bright!

htprojectors.com even noted that the SP7205 had better saturated blue/reds (which have been measured as perfect).

Read their reviews tell us what you think!

scotthorton

make sure to watch your hours on the SP7205 so you don't get stuck on a return!. To save you tweaking time - set it to 6500K, white peaking zero, and film gamma. If you have a Video DVI source set gains/offsets to 66/39 to avoid washout you get with PC DVI gains/offsets of 50/50. Adjust your usual user controls with AVIA.

When calibrating remember that you cannot increased gains due to the self calibrating colorwheel - they are always maxes out regardless of color temp chosen. So you have to cut the opposing colors. It should take only a few clicks.

Be interesting to hear your comparison!

Got my H79 yesterday (3/4). This is my first projector, so I have nothing to compare to, but man the picture looks incredible to me! I am operating it with straight-out-of-the-box settings right now (no idea how to calibrate) and projecting onto a pale yellow wall, and it still looks amazing! I stayed up until about 1:00 am watching hi-def hockey on HDNet, and it looked great. How great? Well, I am not a hockey fan at all, but I watched until 1 am just because I couldn't take my eyes off that giant, clear picture.

Originally posted by krasmuzik
.

When calibrating remember that you cannot increased gains due to the self calibrating colorwheel - they are always maxes out regardless of color temp chosen. So you have to cut the opposing colors. It should take only a few clicks.



How does that work Kras?

Gary.

Okay kras:

I was actually just reading Andrea's comments and yes he is infact saying that some may be more inclined to prefer the 'red/blue' push of the 7205 compared to the Action.
But, correct me if I'm wrong, I think his overall impression is that the Action has the much more accurate and natural color rendition compared to the 7205.

This I feel at the end of the day is what pleasurable viewing is all about and why I still have at the top of my list for "natural" projectors as the NEC HT1000/1100 camp, closely followed by the Actions (MK1 or MK11)
This of course in the case of the NEC HT's is ignoring the fact that they are somewhat behind in 'real' spec compared to the HD2/HD2+'s.

I have been for some months now looking at the hundreds of screenshots being posted on the 77/79 threads and allowing for the inaccuracy of truly reproducing these images, I can't help not liking the apparent razor sharp edging and un-natural look of these shots.
Sure; bright, contrasty, rich and great wow appeal!

But how real?

Did you compare CIE? It just looked clearly desaturated to me compared to the SP7205 red.

Actualy the SP7205 reds with a new lamp does seem too intense an unnatural reds - after a 10% burn-in it settles in

Since both were D65 there is no push so to speak- just different spectral components in the primaries.


SP7205 CIE comment

"As usual, this graph has been taken with the default settings, and doesn’t vary too much with calibration. You can notice that the green pin is a little bit off its target, and we’ll see with the spectral scan the same response. Apart from this minor phenomenon, the response is wide and regular, meaning that this projector can give us good colors. "

PDAmkII

"Maybe this graph is not the most spectacular we can think of: as you’ll see very soon, this DLP has a lot of Swiss army knife within its body, but I wouldn’t define the CIE chart the more lethal of its capacities. As you can see, we have a wide but not exceptional response. The triangle is inside the high definition specs, but less than other DLPs we have measured. Although, I wouldn’t define this is a giant flaw, if we compare it with what we are going to see."

I think their meter is off blue - those who have used the PR650 as a meter have nailed the SP7205 as dead on blue.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
How does that work Kras?

Gary.

The wheel is designed with an optimum D65 color balance (I have dealer charts not sure I can post). To achieve 9500K they just spend less time in red and more time in blue. Unlike other projectors the SP7205 gets dimmer at 9500K - not brighter! So when it is set for 50 you achieve the optimum factory balance for that color temp. Any adjustment is a digital adjustment and not an optical adjustment. Set more blue gain - and it just clips - the colorwheel is hard set to use only that much blue that is defined for that color temp. As far as I know this is an Infocus patented technique nobody else can do.

Others will have variable RGB in the wheels and digital adjust from there. Others have equal RGB and just digitally adjust.

Maybe I'm getting a bit too 'long in the tooth ' for this month after month of bringing forth the meters and test gear.

I appreciate that most of you guys are hardened "what's happening inside this box" enthusiasts and fine if that's your go. I only push the AVS Bookmark button very occasionally these days as I find the flavor of the activity rarely changes.

Don't take this as a criticism as it's not and these forums provide a useful service.

But I really hope some of you can spend some evenings sitting back, relaxing and enjoying the show.

My CIE chart is near 40 years of working with film and TV pictures.
This may only apply to the UK and Europe but did you know that the Pommy BBC has a Test Chart for TV Cameras known as the 'Colour Girl' (yes, colour has a 'u' in it in most parts of the globe)
After all 'techy' checks and adjustments are made in lining up and evaluating camera performance with a myriad of test gear, as a final check this chart with a close-up of the face of a very natural girl with pleasing flesh-tones is placed up front of the camera, to make sure that in the end, the result is pleasing and "natural"
Sort of in the case of a projector, really enjoying what's on the screen and what the test gear sometimes doesn't indicate.

It is called AVScience after all - so people will tend to talk about science of AV - that is only natural.

The CIE chart has only after a half century of TV beginning to achieve it's objectives - the gamut was extended for HD. Anything less than the gamut will be desaturated colors - that is not a subjective measure. Maybe if you are used to it will be natural to you - but that is something subjective. You can accomplish the same thing by turning the color saturation control down. The H79 CIE gamut seems to be hitting the mark quite well based on guitarman's charts (though D65 needs work) - so the pictures are not oversaturated unless the camera is adding something. But then saturated colors means it is not as bright as the Infocus (desaturates green), and the PDA (desaturates RGB)

BTW it is the TV engineers that say it is good and natural to me is why I can't stand watch broadcast TV - even HD channels look bad. Seems to be lot of ignorance of standards in favour of adjusting it to look right to them. So every channel ends up looking different. That is why these standards are in place!

Originally posted by guitarman
I'll get online early tonight with some numbers. I fear my H77 isn't as bright as it could be with all the on/offs and moving around it's gone thru. I'll concentrate on the H79.

Light meter readings for the H79 are about the same.

Extech meter exactly at the 92"wide screen, screen retracted, exact spot where the screen would be produces 17.25ft-lamberts from the meter.

The meter is exremely sensitive to the distance of screen vs the PJ. If I move the meter 1 inch closer to the pj the readings go up by 100ftl, move and inch further away same thing - lower by 100. Excellent light meter.

Tom,

What about "high" lamp mode?

Frank

Whoops, that econo, hang on.

Same test setup you get 22.30ft-lamberts in brightmode.

Hope that helps, now where's my sunglassess? yeoww!

Oh, also I'm at 112hrs right now and I re-did the grayscale, had to move blue contrast and blue brightness one click each. I re ran the CR test afterwards and got 3025.1 twice using andrea's tip on having the Tri-chromat at exatcly 4' from the PJ lens.

Light meters (well our's anyway) don't measure FtLamberts. Did you mean your measurement resulted in a calculated FtL? Or did you mean FtCandles, they are different. Just wanting to be clear. <smile> Scott

Whatever, you know what the meter reads. Hope the numbers help at the decision making for the Monday deadline.

Seleco/Optoma?

Originally posted by krasmuzik
I am convinced that screens have light loss - if you can see the image on the back of the screen (some of them have black backings!)
Everything has loss, but I believe I have heard that the High Power returns close to 97% of the light shot at it. However, I'm not sure what relevance this has as the directionality makes this mostly moot.
But that is the delta I got with Eye-One vs. Spyder1. I am getting higher numbers now with my Spyder2 - the Spyder1 has tilted on it's readings towards red and was low on green.
Do you point both of these at the screen or is one pointed toward the projector? I measured a CRT with the Minolta LS110 at about 6 ft-lamberts after an older meter (it was Guy Kuo's older meter, but I'm not sure what type) gave higher than that from the projector. And this was with a gain screen (1.5 or 1.7). I would tend to believe the LS110 because it is a dedicated lightmeter (less complicated than a color meter), it costs a fair amount, and because the company I work for pays to have it calibrated periodically. Since the Eye-One matched with the LS110 in the one test I ran I would think it is more likely that your test indicates the Spyders are off than that the Eye-One is off. If I remember right William looked at an Eye-One once and I don't remember any indication that it had an error like you claimed for bright stuff. It's bad performance near black is well known, but that is another story.

--Darin

darinp2

It must be the screen - it was just blackout cloth - lots of loss thru that one - gives a rather watchable picture on the other side! Even if the screen is non-lossy - on a gain screen getting the meter on the proper viewing angle is important.

But I have seen the image on the backside of DaLite screens without the black backing - so they obviously have loss.

I use the Spyders pointing at the projector in the center of the image - measure the image with a poster board so I can convert back to lumens.

I will have to buy the light meter just to be sure I guess! Just too many variables with on-screen reviews - I would rather have on-projector reviews.

" But I really hope some of you can spend some evenings sitting back, relaxing and enjoying the show. " -

OK - that's what I've done. We watched Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind on the 92" wide HCCV screen last night and 5th Element tonite on the 106" x 45" CV screen with the H79. Absolutely fantastic picture. Plenty bright in eco mode. Stunning blacks on either screen. I absolutely couldn't be happier. The best picture I've seen, period. I think I'll get an extra 2 years of warranty because I'll be keeping this machine a long time. What more can I say?

Thanks Craig:

That's what I really wanted to hear!

Lets put it this way - watching 5th Element SB last night with folks that had never seen it there was absolutely nothing to pull you out of the movie projector wise. Now it will be poor dvd's that will pull one out - not the projector. As far as brightness some are obsessing over - the H79 seems about as bright as my H76, with much better, deeper and darker blacks - which makes it seem somewhat brighter than the 10% more it probably is over the H77. Thats plenty bright - so what if you have to change bulbs every 800 hours even to keep a extra bright punchy picture - the picture still kicks a#* compared to the 7205 IMHO.

Tom,

Thanks for the measurements! Ok, guys/gals, I am sure that it is in this thread somewhere but, how do we calculate the following numbers into lumens?

17.25ft-lamberts
22.30ft-lamberts

Thanks,

Frank

Originally posted by ftlee
Tom,

Thanks for the measurements! Ok, guys/gals, I am sure that it is in this thread somewhere but, how do we calculate the following numbers into lumens?

17.25ft-lamberts
22.30ft-lamberts

Thanks,

Frank

If you really are reading reflected light directly off your screen, you multiply these numbers by the image area in square feet, and divide that number by the screen gain.

Originally posted by ftlee
Tom,

Thanks for the measurements! Ok, guys/gals, I am sure that it is in this thread somewhere but, how do we calculate the following numbers into lumens?

17.25ft-lamberts
22.30ft-lamberts

Thanks,

Frank Well, I'm not quite sure what those numbers are, based on Tom's answer of "whatever", I'm assuming those are straight from his meter. If that's the case, then they are fc (footcandles). To calculate Lumens from fc, it's those measurments times the square footage of the projected image at tthe plane where the measurment was taken (e.g. Tom' screen area since that's where he measured).

For example if Tom's screen was 32ft2, and those numbers above are fc, then the Lumens would be 552 and 713 respectively. NOTE THIS IS AN EXAPMLE - I don't remember Tom's screen size. Maybe it was a 92" diag. 16x9; For a 92" 16x9 diag screen (25.1 ft2) those measurments woudl translate to: 433 Lumens and 559 respectively.

HTH, Scott

New H79 Owners:

One of my big gripes with the H77 was it's slow sync speed. Even when set to manual in the menu options, whne going from a HD signal to a SD signal over component, the H77 would often take what I considered too long to sync. Occasionally it would fail an drequire a bump (resync) to get it to try again. I used to think that may have been due to my long DVI and component cables (30') but now I've had several other PJ's to test and none of them had the long sync times, only the H77.

How long (in seconds) does it take your H79 to sync when changing sources, particularly from HD to SD over component if you have that setup? My H77 would take around 13-18 secs IIRC.

Thanks,
Scott

Originally posted by Craig Peer
" But I really hope some of you can spend some evenings sitting back, relaxing and enjoying the show. " -

OK - that's what I've done. We watched Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind on the 92" wide HCCV screen last night and 5th Element tonite on the 106" x 45" CV screen with the H79. Absolutely fantastic picture. Plenty bright in eco mode. Stunning blacks on either screen. I absolutely couldn't be happier. The best picture I've seen, period. I think I'll get an extra 2 years of warranty because I'll be keeping this machine a long time. What more can I say?

Craig, in your opinion, since you have both of them, which screen is the better match for the H79, the CV or HCCV?

Sri for the confusion,

106" diagonal 92"wide screen, PJ 14' away, screen up, meter faciing the pj at the exacty center spot where the screen would be, and straight Ftc reading from the meter Ft-candles.

Scott as far as syncing, no help there for you it sync's exactly like the H77. Users should check the sync lock for the best possible sync times. The HT1000 is quite faster at syncing over the H77 or H79.

Just tested timing for the 79, it takes 7 seconds to go from SD to HD and 12 secs to go from HD to SD, mine never drops out once it's picked up the signal. Is that the deal breaker?

Since Red is the limited color I'll have to try using one of my FLD filters and re calibrate. Should be interesting to see where the CR goes. Last night I got a consistant 3025.1 a couple of times.

I was reading Andrea's report on the 7205, seems like he's saying a gamma of 240 is a problem and 250 would be the cure?

So, if my calculations are right, it goes like this. Tom's screen is 33.17 sq. ft.

That puts our numbers at: 572 lumens in "normal" mode and 740 lumens in "high" mode. Does everyone concur?

If these numbers are accurate, I think there may be a H79 in my near future.

Frank

Yes those are right, I messed up in memory when stating 515lumens earlier. What screen gain do you have? You could add that into the equation also.

I'm bringing out slow Joe One-eye to re-tune to the HP screen and throw a filter on also for a test. Come on Joe pick it up, lol

Tom,

Please post what Joe has to say...

Frank

I would base whether to use a CV or an HCCV screen more on external factors ( like light control, watching HDTV sports with lights on etc. ). It looks good on either really.

Originally posted by guitarman
Just tested timing for the 79, it takes 7 seconds to go from SD to HD and 12 secs to go from HD to SD, mine never drops out once it's picked up the signal. Is that the deal breaker? Thanks for the timing checks. Dealbreaker?, naa. Just an annoyance. It's something I learned to be careful about - that is, not to accidentially channel surf into or out of a HD/SD channel. It annoyed wifey more than me, but when she's annoyed....:( DVD's and HD are my main sources so it's not the end of the world, but it would be nice if it was a little faster. Picture and (fan) noise is what's more important to me personally, and if the panning thing (that I never saw anyway) is better/fixed, then both PQ and noise are top contenders for sure.

Originally posted by ftlee
Tom,

Please post what Joe has to say...

Frank

lol, Joe says his tuning ability is top notch. I tuned grayscale again with the FLD filter and one-eyed joe :)

I had to increase blue and green in the contrast area quite a few numbers around the 10 level, also had to increase brightnes blue quite allot. End result color quality tune up with the one-eye once again looks excellent. No way I can get contrast or light meter readings though. I'll have to wait for the Vampires to come out again. :)

scotthorton

Its ftL*sqft=lumens - not sure what the conversion is for ftc! Not in my Poynton reference - so I would not rely on any Lumens numbers yet!

Hi Tom,

Did you manage to get D65 even at 100ire? After adding the fl-day, you might then find the green or blue become the limiting color so it pays to find their maximums too.

Gary.

Tom,

Kras has indicated that there is something wrong with my calculations. Is your meter reading FtL or FtC? Can someone help me get some accurate numbers?


Thanks,

Frank

It's ft-candles on the meter. I was reading a review yesterday where they used Ft-candles and Ft lamberts in the same sentence. I think it was Andrea's site not sure. It there's a diffeence, I don't know.

The readings from this meter are the same that Gary over in the UK, Scott amd me find. We all have the same meter. It's the meter the Smart package uses. Maybe the Smart site has a calculation proceedure for this meter.

Originally posted by krasmuzik
Its ftL*sqft=lumens - not sure what the conversion is for ftc! Not in my Poynton reference - so I would not rely on any Lumens numbers yet! I believe I am correct (don't we all) :), my reference says:

"A LUMEN is equal to one foot-candle falling on one square foot of area."

so if you have 17.25 fc's measured, this is what's falling on 1 ft2. If you have 33.17 ft2 it's 572 lumens

and

"1 Lumens/sq. ft. = foot-candles"

and

"1 fc = 1 lumen per square foot."

which all say solved for lumens:

lumens = 1 fc * ft2

The meter measures fc. So for 17.25 fc, and 33.17 ft2 of illuminated surface, the total lumens is 17.25 * 33.17 = 572 lumens

It's right.

;)

Originally posted by guitarman
It's ft-candles on the meter. I was reading a review yesterday where they used Ft-candles and Ft lamberts in the same sentence. I think it was Andrea's site not sure. It there's a diffeence, I don't know.
There is a difference, albiet subtle:

"Foot Lamberts, are a unit not of illuminance but of luminance"

For us one is a measure of whats going to the screen (lumens), and the other is a measure of what's coming off the screen ft-lamberts.

A google search will give you a prompt headache... unless you are a physics major, but here's one close to home:
http://www.da-lite.com/education/angles_of_view.php?action=details&issueid=15

Originally posted by scotthorton
There is a difference, albiet subtle:

"Foot Lamberts, are a unit not of illuminance but of luminance"

For us one is a measure of whats going to the screen (lumens), and the other is a measure of what's coming off the screen ft-lamberts.

A google search will give you a prompt headache... unless you are a physics major, but here's one close to home:
http://www.da-lite.com/education/angles_of_view.php?action=details&issueid=15

If screen gain = 1, then ftL = ftC (rule of thumb, because the screen may not be a perfect radiator)

barrysb,

Ok, what does that do for our numbers?

Frank

Originally posted by krasmuzik
scotthorton

Its ftL*sqft=lumens - not sure what the conversion is for ftc! Not in my Poynton reference - so I would not rely on any Lumens numbers yet!

One square Ft-candle = one Lumen.

End measurments equal the same total from before 572lumens in econo.

You probably read this one -
http://www.theledlight.com/lumens.html

Originally posted by ftlee
barrysb,

Ok, what does that do for our numbers?

Frank If you will allow me to answer... What it will do to the numbers is increase them (sort of) if you have a screen with any Gain.

For example, I have a Firehawk, it's supposed to have a gain of 1.3 (although some claim it's less; but that's a different issue). Let's assume a screen gain of 1.3 for this example. Take Tom's measurment of 17.25 fc (which is luminance) of the light coming from the PJ, measured pointed at the PJ, measured at the screen position, which is what Tom did. Take that figure, 17.25 multiply it by the screen gain, in this case 1.3 to get 22.4 Ft-Lamberts (illuminance) which is the illuminance of the light coming off of the screen. barrysb's rule of thumb is for a screen with a gain of 1.0, fc=ft-Lamberts (and this assumes the screen is a perfect radiator which he mentioned). Screens aren't perfect radiators, and measuring real Ft-lamberts takes very, very expensive equipment. But the rule of thumb is reasonable IMO for HT numbers. And this is why I believe measuring fc, then calculating lumens based on that measurment is the best way to compare units' relative brightness.

So anyway, it dosen't change Toms measurments any. It just gives a method to determe Ft-lamberts. Folks have some idea of what they like to see coming off their screen in Ft-Lamberts. For light controlled rooms, 10 - 15 ft-lamberts is the range given as preference by the "experts", I think SMTPE recommends 16 ft. lamberts, so the H79 is *smokin* those and headed toward your desired brightness... Presumably with nice black levels to boot?. Of course this is with a pretty new bulb. I don't know how much it dims, but my understanding is 50% over it's life (3000 hours). For me, I'd be happy to change at 2000 hours where maybe the bulb has dimmed only 40% or less. That means at 2000 hours and a 1.3 gain screen, I'd have 13.44 ft-lamberts in low lamp mode. For high lamp mode I'd have:
22.3 fc * 1.3gain * 60%(dim with age) =~ 17.4 Ft-Lamberts which is still in the recommended range for HT.

HTH, S

If you run the H79 in "high-lamp" mode, does it effect the C/R of 2800:1?

Thanks,

Frank

Originally posted by scotthorton
That means at 2000 hours and a 1.3 gain screen, I'd have 13.44 ft-lamberts in low lamp mode. For high lamp mode I'd have:
22.3 fc * 1.3gain * 60%(dim with age) =~ 17.4 Ft-Lamberts which is still in the recommended range for HT.

HTH, S

What were the same measurements for the H77? Im interested to know how much brighter the H79 actually is.

John

Gary with his lower houred bulb got 510 lumens in bright mode. I'm no good for numbers now with my H77. With all my testing I wore the bulb down.

You know many on/offs, plus moving the projector after off can wear out the bulb pre-maturely. I'm pretty sure this is what happend to mine. The H79 blasts out big time brightness compared to my H77 as it is now. I'd go with Gary's numbers.

Originally posted by ftlee
If you run the H79 in "high-lamp" mode, does it effect the C/R of 2800:1?
Thanks,
Frank

No it should not. You get more lumens, but your blacks are also more elevated so the outcome should be a wash (note: this does not refer to white clipping though)

Ciao,
Raul

guitarman,

30 IRE is a relative level not an absolute value which means that 30% of the peak brightness of display X is not the same as 30% of the peak brightness of display Y. The Eye-One according to Gretag MacBeth the manufacturer of the Eye-One states that the piece is not accurate for use below light levels of 1.0 fL which in many displays 30 IRE will fall well below this light level. The Eye-One even though it is a full spectral device does not mean that for all applications it will be more accurate then a tristimulus analyzer. This device was designed for use on computer monitors to perform ICC monitor profiling which typically involves a very bright pc monitor rather then a low light output front projection system. The Eye-One samples at a rate of only one sample per second maximum which is extremely slow. The piece is also very poor in the repeatability department for measurement data as it requires frequent dark Level calibration.

A high gain screen is extremely directional and as a result the point which is measured can impact the reading significantly! This is why you mentioned that taking a reading at a different point raised the "Y" value to almost double the brightness level.

Originally posted by BIGmouthinDC
Mandarax, yes cable length will be about 30 ft.

Is there a difference in long length performance between DVI and HDMI cables and do you have any favorites?

BigmouthinDC.. I like the Ultralink Pro series for both the HDMI and the DVI cable... this is a relatively new iteration of cable for them.. they upgraded not too long ago and either is great.

Cheers

Robert

Originally posted by ftlee
barrysb,

Ok, what does that do for our numbers?

Frank

Deadlines over, did you get anything?

Originally posted by noah katz
thirdkind,

When you comment more later, could you compare the H79's internal processing with what you're getting from your HTPC?

Thanks

I played around a bit more last night with the H79 and a Panasonic RP62 DVD player. Certainly not a reference player these days, but not bad.

I didn't try out 480i so I don't know about the H79's SD deinterlacing, but I did check the Avia PRO resolution and sharpness patterns via 480p. There was a fair amount of ringing with the H79's sharpness turned all the way down, but I can't say for sure whether it was the H79 or the RP62.

Scaling, however, was very good. The ring patterns (multiple circles within one another like tree rings) showed no appreciable jagginess except for a very small amount on the 4.75 MHz pattern. Very smooth.

I also got to sit down and watch the season premiere of Deadwood last night. Based on what I saw, the H79's handling of 1080i material is excellent. Very sharp and detailed with excellent motion. Comparable to the Sharp 12K, which has the best 1080i performance I've seen.

As for my calibration with Progressive Labs, I've gotten the greyscale looking pretty good, but color decoding is off. Green is almost spot-on and blue is a bit oversaturated, but red is grossly oversaturated. Secondaries are close, but could be better. I'd appreciate it if someone could post or PM me the service menu codes so I can muck around with the color decoding (if that's even possible).

thirdkind,

oversaturated reds is common with bluer greyscales so people do not look like sickly martians! guitarman should now who to ask if the color decoder is accessible!

On the projector, the four buttons in a line, you hit the two left ones and far right one at the same time. Move around with cross keys, back out of options with the menu key.

ftlee, et.al:

As promised I have the first measurments of the PJ's I'm looking at. The H79 won't be here until today so I just have the Marantz and the IF7205. The Marantz has 100hrs on it so it's a pretty indicative measurment, unfortunately, the 7205 and the Optoma will be brand new with 0 hrs on the bulbs, so the readings will be high - how much who knows.

Also, it would appear that my meter is getting lower readings than Tom's. We'll know for sure when the H79 arrives. Mine's new, but it's different enough from what I expected I don't entirely trust it. I'm talking to Davis instruments about it today, may swap for NIST certified one. But in any case, I believe the readings for each PJ can be trusted for relative comparisons (of my numbers only), until I can verify the meas. are accurate.

For the records I also measured the luminance with my Optic One and have included those meas as well. It technically reads in FtL but they are considering FtL=fc per the creator.

PJs are set to D65 using the OpticOne before measuring. Of course brightness and contrast is set, too. That's it on setup.

H79 to be added as soon as I can get it for comparison and I will update the xls and post.

I must mention that I'm tickled to finally see the 7205. The elevated blacks weren't as bad as I expected. ftlee, if you want bright, look at one of these if you haven't. Man it's really bright. If intrested, see my initial comments on each of the PJ's in the spreadsheet...

For now, I've put the xls file (zipped) on my website at the link below. Once it's finalized, I'll move it here to AVS as an attachment. So for the archives, if you are reading this thread and the link below dosen't work, read on... in the future I will delete the file and the final will be posted here in this thread.

HTH, input welcome of course.
Scott

Scotts PJ shootout measurments (zipped .xls file) (http://www.msws.org/misc/PJshootout.zip)

Thanks Tom.

Is the color decoder accessible via the service menu? These reds need to be toned down quite a bit.

Basically the same reds as the Sim2 30H I had. Can't say I'm a fan. The perfect and highly configurable color decoding of the 12K has spoiled me.

Pretty sure we can't move the CD. Isn't it that way for most projectors?

Here's some charts using the one-eye this morning with the HP screen.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h793kcie2.jpg

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h793krgb.jpg

The only PJ's I 've heard that had access to the color decoder were the Yamaha, and apparantly the Sharp. I haven't seen access to it on any of the one's I've fiddled with (H77, 7205, 300E, VP12S3) EDIT: DLP projectors that is.

Scott,

When do you think you will have the numbers for the H79?

Thanks,

Frank

ftlee: FedEx says it's on truck for delivery. If it comes today when "Mrs. Scott" is home, then I expect to do it tonight. She's normally there when FedEx runs so tonight is the plan. I've got an hour of soccer with the boy, but PJ time after that :)

kras: OffTopic: What kinda dodad do I have to get to use my DVI cable on the 7205? What were they thinking putting that DVI-looking plug on there? Figured you could save me the trouble of a goose chase to find it...grrr.

Originally posted by guitarman

Here's some charts using the one-eye this morning with the HP screen.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h793krgb.jpg

Your gray scale readings explain why your fc and contrast numbers are higher than Scotts.

Boosting blue and green like that are going to make your most of your light meters numbers suspect.

Can you not calibrate to the limiting red?

Brad