Great article on calibration here....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=520657

Yes, I'd love to get my H79 calibrated by a pro & think the small outlay of cash would likely be worth it since it's such a beautiful projector. This will be done some time soon, but until then I can get it close enough to keep my hands off the remote & enjoy it for the short haul.

I've been into high-end audio for over 30 years and own a recording studio, so I know full well about the tweeking one can do with the proper calibration equipment, etc. But I also know that I can set a stereo up to sound great in a matter of hours, with just my ears & a little bit of knowhow, while others will still be getting their meters out for years. I see both ends of the spectrum, but don't think it useful to champion any one side of the equation while not being understanding of the other.

sotagear

give guitarman a call - I hear he is cheap because he wants the practice and gives a free stinky smoke with every calibration.

When he is all done your projector will be juicy and bright and contrasty and dark. Something like that anyways.

:D

Originally posted by sotagear
I think, other than myself, Craig, Tom & a few others, most of the talk rarely gets around to how much we enjoy the projector, which screens look best with it, which dvd players to use, etc. You know - how enthusiasts are enjoying & getting the best out of it in practical terms.

How long do you think you can sustain a topic with posts like, "I watched Such and Such last night, and it looked great on the H79!" I suppose if the primary purpose of the topic is for owners to pat themselves on the back and reinforce their purchase, it could go on indefinitely.

As for what screens to use, how would you know what's best without accurate lumen measurements?

And DVD players...there's a forum just for those ;)


Originally posted by sotagear
I've been into high-end audio for over 30 years and own a recording studio, so I know full well about the tweeking one can do with the proper calibration equipment, etc. But I also know that I can set a stereo up to sound great in a matter of hours, with just my ears & a little bit of knowhow, while others will still be getting their meters out for years. I see both ends of the spectrum, but don't think it useful to champion any one side of the equation while not being understanding of the other.

The perception of color, much like the perception of sound, is highly influenced by your mood, the time of day, your level of fatigue...I could go on and on. I could very easily muck around with the H79 and find a color balance that I think looks great. That doesn't mean it will be representative of the source material's intended appearance.

I'm sure your audio setups sound great--to you. But you have your own ears and your own expectations of what music is "supposed" to sound like. Just because you find it pleasing doesn't mean it's correct. I'll take a mike and digital room correction software over any expert's ears any day of the week.

Most people's perceptions of color work the exact same way. They've been conditioned for years by NTSC displays that are usually grossly miscalibrated out of the box. They then purchase their fancy new HD displays and adjust them so they look "correct" based on years of misinformation.

Many projectors have gotten better at hitting D65 out of the box, so advanced calibration isn't as essential as it used to be for general viewing. But if you're going to use your display as a reference when making recommendations to other people regarding what DVD player to use and what screen to hang--the exact kind of info you're seeking in this forum--you better be working from a standard reference point. That means getting your display calibrated and taking measurements.

Imagine not knowing what the lumen count of the H79 is after D65 calibration (or even out of the box)? How would you recommend a screen to someone? It becomes, again, a situation of subjectivity. What's bright to one person is dim to another. That's where the specs come in.

I don't take a person's opinion seriously if they're working from an uncalibrated display. What's their frame of reference? What do they prefer in their images?

While Tom and I disagree sometimes, at least I know he's doing his best to take measurements and present objective data.

Originally posted by MichaelZ
IMHO the eye is still the best tool for the final tweaks.

Only if your calibration equipment sucks.

I'll take a colorimeter's opinion of what D65 is over someone's eyes every time.

Does anyone know if the H79 has sealed optics like BenQ, Marantz to prevent dust from getting in there?

I've asked that before about the H77, Optics are sealed up, they even added a filter to keep dust out of the case. I haven't checked but other optoma projectors even have a glass shield between the color wheel and bulb. I'll have to look into that one.

Oh don't forget, we're supposed to clean that filter every few months. Run it under water and dry.

Originally posted by thirdkind
The purpose of trying Colorfacts is to determine if it provides the same results as Progressive Labs. If Colorfacts registers everything as normal but Progressive Labs shows the projectors pushing red, then we have a mystery to solve.

Uncertainty is a annoying :). Sorta why we like the calibration equipment, no guesswork. How did it go with the H77?

New users could do a good job tuning, especially with the advanced adjustments. Really the OTB grayscale was pretty good compared to most.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79factorytemp.jpg

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by thirdkind
The purpose of trying Colorfacts is to determine if it provides the same results as Progressive Labs. If Colorfacts registers everything as normal but Progressive Labs shows the projectors pushing red, then we have a mystery to solve.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Tuesday, DRapp and I spent a lot of time looking at this issue.

Using OpticOne and an Accupel generator at 720p over DVI, we got the attached CIE chart that shows red almost off the chart. We tried many options to see if there was a setting that impacted the red primary, but it never changed (other than by adjusting color wheel delay, which messes up everything else).

I didn't get a chance to check color decoding using the Accupel or AviaPro, so I can't comment on that.

The chart uses the HDTV BT 709 color space. Red should be x=.64 y=.33. The coordinates on the attached chart for red are x=.676 and y=.315

This will be of no interest to the "by eye" calibrators, or maybe the folks wanting to just chat about how much they like (or don't) their PJ (I have no particular reports of what I watched that looked good)I guess I'm in the technical crowd...:). But for the others,

After I got over an issue mainley related to a USB voltage problem on my laptop, the H79I have's grayscale appears to be dialing in decently per my OpticOne. I still have a lot of playing around to do, I haven't even touched the service menu yet or tried any different Gammas. But a quick run at it last night produced the attached. Sorry, I didn't reord my settings but I'm pretty sure I was at Film Mode, Temp 2 for this run. My red primary is reported as off, but so are the other DLP's I checked. Primary Green looks a little limey, not too bad from my own "eye balling it". I’ve been working at 30IRE for my Bias settings, I may try moving back to 20 and see what happens. For the other techies, what are you doing to find the limiting colors on the low scale? I used the MichaelZ method to visually see where all dithering goes to zero and there is no effect on color at all with a change in the particular color's BIAS. That happens at -5 on each RGB Bias for this '79. One click up to -4 and I begin to see an effect from the bias adjustment. -5 goes dark and below that has no effect at all. Moving B or G to -4 cause dithering to start, R does not cause dithering, and is the hardest to see due to the spotlight effect of the yellow menu background. Anyone (who uses calibration gear) help with a good method on this end.

Hope this is of interest to someone.

Tom: Another feature improvement to ask Wing for is to either change or allow the change of the menu background from spotlight yellow, to gray, or at least something dimmer. In particular the Service menu and the advanced RGB’s. They can leave the pretty yellow for the masses if they like..

(zipped word doc with CIE and %RGB vs. IRE) attached

Tom,

How do you think the H79 would match up with a 112" diagonal Firehawk?

Thanks,

David

Originally posted by bukiwhitey
Tom,How do you think the H79 would match up with a 112" diagonal Firehaw? David, I don't think Tom has access to a Firehawk (but he may have an opinion of course), so I can offer that I do have a 110" firehawk. I bought it with my H77 little lesss than a year ago. I like it a lot. I'm a year more seasoned in this that I was when I got it, I've seen and read about a lot since then, and if I had to get one tomorrow, I'd still get it. Only if I was installing it in a bat cave (not 99% but 100% blacked out) would I consider something else and that would be the StudioTek 130. If you have any ambient light (bias, room, stray, windows not 100% blacked out, etc.), it's very nice at rejecting it and the picture looks great. It is designed to use with a ceiling mounted PJ. Hope that helps, Scott

P.S. My room is blacked out 99% and I still prefer it. Blacks _are_ black.

Seems pretty solid to assume that Colorfacts says red is fine but OpticONE/Progressive Labs says it's way oversaturated.

Cliff is investigating this on his end with an H79 himself.

I guess I should have been a bit more eloquent at describing my opinion about this thread, but it was late when I typed that. Just the same, I see your points, scotthorton, and certainly agree that having a basic point of reference to start with for all other comments to be supposedly more helpful is a noble cause. I'm not an un-technical person & certainly don't want a "fluff" thread with owners rambling on (like me) & patting each other's back about their purchase. However, that doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of important and relevant discussions of interest to current users & potential users that will help them out, without even broaching the test gear talk.

As far as techie vs eye-baller, I like to hear from both, but don't necessarily accept one's opinions over the other as gospel. To my point about comparing this with proper audio setup - that was to illustrate that even if test gear is used it's not always the Holy Grail. Some people could adjust for what they think is accurate & be slightly colorblind or tone deaf while doing it, or simply be a poor engineer. Or you could read the numbers, adjust for the deficiencies & still not be there because you didn't use your eyes & ears to get it better than the next tech can. I've been in many rooms that have been tweaked by top professionals to sound accurate, and guess what, they all sound completely different while playing back reference mixes, regardless of how the test tones were reproduced and dealt with. Of course there are so many factors that will effect the outcome and getting one thing right while missing something else (monitor placement, reflections & diffusion at the mix position, quality of the signal chain, humidity in the room, too dead vs too live, etc, etc,) can sometimes make getting that test gear out virtually no more valid than tweaking by ear. Then there’s the fact that plenty of gear tests great & has great specs but just doesn’t sound or look good better than one with less than accurate specs. That happens all the time in audio & I bet video as well.

Then, after all this, how do I know that any one person on this thread with test gear & a whole night to adjust can be trusted to have done their job right? Or, assuming they did their job right and got it to where it was supposedly accurate, that their judgments about the look of the projector, to help others, is then just as flawed as any generic non-techie. I only bore you all about this to illustrate that while we all want to get the best out of our purchase, there are no perfect answers and very few that, in the long haul, are more valid than another, though I appreciate the effort.

When I first purchased a front projector (IF 4805) I went to that thread every day & found tons of useful information along with plenty of test measurement talk. Again, I’m not unhappy with all the tech talk & I’m interested to read through a lot of it, but I just hope as more people acquire this projector there will be more even-handed discussing going on in this thread to make it a bit more palatable to all users.

OK, I'll shut up now - for the moment. :D

" I think, other than myself, Craig, Tom & a few others, most of the talk rarely gets around to how much we enjoy the projector, which screens look best with it, which dvd players to use, etc. You know - how enthusiasts are enjoying & getting the best out of it in practical terms.

Yes, AV Science is the name of the site, but in case you all didn't notice, this is also "the" place that everybody from all walks comes to find out about the latest home theater gear. It's just as important for some to get it close & enjoy it to the fullest as it is for others to struggle for weeks looking for perfection. And no one should be lambasted for doing either, there's room for everyone here.

Oh - I'm gonna be popular after this one. " -

It didn't take any calibration to see out of the box that the picture the H79 produced watching The 5th Element SB, the very first movie I watched on it, was stunning in clarity and detail wise compared to the H76 ( or my HT1000 ). Also, the colors looked pretty close ( skin tones especially ) compared to the just - calibrated - by - Tom - with - a - near - perfect - greyscale - H76 !!

Tonight I've got friends coming over to watch Lawrence of Arabia SB. At the end of the day it is about enjoying watching movies with friends. That's really all it's about. Otherwise this is just an exercise in trying to achieve video perfection for its own sake, without ever stopping to enjoy it. My question tonight isn't is the greyscale perfect. It's what bottle of wine to open ( don't get me started on that equally potentially obsessive subject )! That said, I will continue to tweak my system!

Scott,

Thanks for the input. That is exactly what I was looking for. We do not have a 100% light controlled room. Never will. Glad to hear you are pleased with your Firehawk.

Thanks again,

David

Originally posted by bukiwhitey Thanks for the input. That is exactly what I was looking for. We do not have a 100% light controlled room. Never will. Glad to hear you are pleased with your Firehawk. Glad to try to help. If you do have ambient light, do what you can to keep it off the screen and that will go a long ways. Search for the keywords firehawk, cedia, and my username, I've posted my comments on a nice Firehawk vs StudioTek demo I saw a CEDIA last year.

Cheers,
Scott

sotagear

You simply cannot compare audio mastering to video mastering. Audio mastering has no objective standards to strive to replicate. Video mastering does. This is why video can be a much more objective hobby than video - and why you will see the science discussed more often. It is entirely possible to recreate in your personal screening room what any director saw in their professional screening room. It is absolutely impossible to recreate the setup of any audio mix studio.

Standards for RGB primaries, W balance, gamma, ftL, viewing angles, all are about recreation of the master. It is not about reproduction of reality and what looks good to the eye - that is the directors job.

Originally posted by krasmuzik
sotagear

You simply cannot compare audio mastering to video mastering. Audio mastering has no objective standards to strive to replicate. Video mastering does.
Standards for RGB primaries, W balance, gamma, ftL, viewing angles, all are about recreation of the master. It is not about reproduction of reality and what looks good to the eye - that is the directors job.

Understood.

Ideally I was mainly a bit frustrated with how much Colorfacts talk there has been in this thread over other conversations, and most of that about how to use it correctly or finding out it wasn't used correctly, etc. That seems to me to be a separate thread for an FAQ for Colorfacts rather than an FAQ about the H79 specifically. I think that was primarily fueling my disappointment in the way this thread has transformed from the opening few posts.

As I said previously, as more people buy an H79 hopefully the discussion topics will widen a bit. Hey, and there's nothing wrong with posts talking about how much someone enjoys their experience with this projector either. Whenever Craig, or anyone else mentions their joy of owning the H79 it makes me feel a kinship with others, reaffirming the excitement I have about this expensive new toy. That type of insight is precisely what many people sitting on the fence would like to hear, along with all the other more nuts & bolts stuff. In fact there's more talk about using the H79 projector in another thread that just got started recently about the H79 vs the 7210 than what's generally in this thread lately.

sotagaear

The ColorFacts talk tends to gravitate to those threads that have projectors that need calibration. Not much ColorFacts talk over in the Infocus threads!

Over on the cheaper forum - more talk of SmartIII because that is all they can afford over there. Now on a couple projectors with the massive sticky threads they seperated out the tweak threads. But there is way more traffic in the cheaper forum. You actually only have a few people on this thread discussing it - and mostly only recently because some people wanted to make purchase decisions based on real data which there is none since it just came out.

So skim through the tech talk - maybe you will glean enough to say hey if guitarman gives a free stinky smoke with each calibration - I should check this out!

Oh I would love to have guitarman come over & setup this H79 for me, though I'll pass on the stinky smoke stuff - not my thing.

So Tom/guitarman - are you out there? Any chance I could coerce you down to the south bay for a few hours? I don't share your passion for smoking, but I'm sure we'll connect on a few other things. Let me know if that sounds like a possibility.

Cheers,
-Dave

He works for wine ( good wine )......... ;)

Originally posted by Craig Peer
He works for wine ( good wine )......... ;)

Well that I can do!:D

Hi:
I have just purchased a H79. I need some help from you folks:

I only use my HT for viewing DVDs (HDDTV is not that exciting here in Western Canada). Would you folks recommend a best DVD player/H79 combo for optimum PQ? Would a separate scaler of some sort improve the PQ noticably? What is the best way to connect the source to the H79?

Thanks,
Frank

BTW, I found a Optoma dealer who sold me the H79 at a very good price and service so far have been excellent. If interested in contact info, please PM me.

Frank - see my answer to your same question in the other thread.

Originally posted by kaka
Hi:
I have just purchased a H79. I need some help from you folks:

I only use my HT for viewing DVDs (HDDTV is not that exciting here in Western Canada). Would you folks recommend a best DVD player/H79 combo for optimum PQ? Would a separate scaler of some sort improve the PQ noticeably? What is the best way to connect the source to the H79?

Thanks,
Frank

BTW, I found a Optoma dealer who sold me the H79 at a very good price and service so far have been excellent. If interested in contact info, please PM me.

The Cadillac machine would be the Denon 3910 I guess to use the DVI input. I'm cheap and use a Toshiba SD5970 in/DVI with great video results and bad remote control usage. A moderate priced machine could be the Panasonic S97 via/DVI.

Sota/Craig, funny about the tune-up talk, maybe someday. I don't think I'll be heading to Tahoe for a while Craig, I lost the gamble bug.

I'll bet ya my Bravo D1 on one hand of Blackjack Tom - you just have to put up an H79 calibration !!

No problem Tom, I'll find someone out this way to do the job for me. BTW I wouldn't have expected you to do this gratis, just so you didn't get the wrong idea.

Can someone tell me where the optoma is built? Usa? Japan? Taiwan?

Earth

Originally posted by stephrich1
Can someone tell me where the optoma is built? Usa? Japan? Taiwan?


The mother company is in Taiwan

http://asia.optoma.com/about_optoma/aboutus.aspx

Taiwan Earth :)

I'm still working on signal tuning. I can do everything but HDTV, Kras gave me a work around but I haven't put the time in to get it to work yet. Someday

Hey I won't be around this weekend if there's Optoma questions. Grandma's 80th Birthday I'm heading to LA.

I'll probably get some feedback from the H78 thread. :)

Originally posted by Gary Damico
Hey if anyone is interested in purchasing the Optoma H79, Brand New factory sealed Box, give me a PM. I have a very good deal on them! But not for long.

"Hey man, wanna buy a watch ? I know you need a watch. If you had a watch you would know you shouldn't be hanging around here at this time."

That IS a skit from a movie, right ?

Originally posted by kaka
Hi:
I have just purchased a H79. I need some help from you folks:

I only use my HT for viewing DVDs (HDDTV is not that exciting here in Western Canada). Would you folks recommend a best DVD player/H79 combo for optimum PQ? Would a separate scaler of some sort improve the PQ noticably? What is the best way to connect the source to the H79?

Thanks,
Frank

BTW, I found a Optoma dealer who sold me the H79 at a very good price and service so far have been excellent. If interested in contact info, please PM me.

I'm' just a couple provinces over and I'm quite satisfied with my EVu HDTV. It does lack a little in both movies and sports programming, but it's so nice to be able to watch HDTV at 9' wide.

Yet another answer to Frank's OT question: If you're truly limited to DVDs, it does make sense to find the best player for DVDs for your price range. If price is not a problem, currently that would likely be a Denon 5910 for $3500 or some other (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=511041) (unfortunately, this particular offer has expired) DVD/processor for digital or high quality component output to the H79. Personally, I still use a fixed Bravo D1 with new power supply, for DVI output.

Dan

Frank: I was in the same boat once. I chose the Bravo D2. It was cheap, had DVI output and upscaled. I was happy with it's pic. I was however annoyed by some little quirks it had, like you couldn't open the tray without turning it on. You couldn't turn it on from standby on the front panel. So you walk over to it to stick in a DVD, can't, need remote. Why you say?, because if you turn it on/off with the power button, it lost it's settings (i.e. 16:9, DVI out, etc.). If you can remember to carry the remote with you when you stick in a DVD, it was just fine. I bought a Denon 3910 and it's very nice, really _way_ overkill for me since I don't use it's audio capabilities. I may sell it and try soemthing different, but be aware the late models aren't passing blacker than black. A firmware fix is rumored soon but not out yet. See the 3910 owners thread if interested. But if teh 3910 is overkill for you, too, the Bravo D2 did fine on quality IMO.

Hope that helps, Scott

MichaelZ

True - but then true videophiles only watch those reference DVD that have been blessed by ISF. But to the point - the catch is recreating the mastered DVD that was in the directors screening room. You cannot recreate the film - we are talking about digital video here! So garbage in - garbage out.

Speaking of reference DVD - get the Incredibles DVD - it will make you want to calibrate your system.

My take on it is this issue:

Projectors still have a lot to be desired. Many of us (maybe all) are hoping for that PJ that will have 10000:1 contrast and black is black for under $8k. Obviously we are no where near that so a less dreamy hope might be a PJ with 3/4 the brightness of a 7205 and the blacks of a Marantz or 300E. Not there yet either. So we are faced with lots of lesser, albiet still expensive choices.

My interest in intrumentation based calibration is to ge tthe absolute maximum I can out of the limited technology. I want the pic to be as bright as it is capable of while still preserving proper color balance. Similarly, I want it as dark as it can go, too. I don't have years of experience adjusting CRT's with my dad. I did actually help mine build our Heathkit TV which we watched for many years, but that was in 1969 and I didn't retain much from that experience. I don't have the talent to look at a test pattern, or video clip and telll if my PJ is doing all it can do; correctly. So I have to rely on instruments.

As a fringe benefit to having the instrumentation available, I find it an interesting point for comparisons sake on how well a PJ handles the technology. For instance how well it tracks proper color balance across the IRE scale, and how well it reproduces the primary (and secondary) colors. Even if MichaelZ can look at a test pattern and tell if a unit is adjusted properly, I cannot, I just don't have that wealth of experience. So I find some comfort (or discomfort) in knowing what the thing is doing via the scientific (vs. the subjective) method.

The later is what was of interest to me as I choose a PJ. And when it's PJ specific, I think a thread like this is a good place to post those scientific measurments. I agree we don't want to get off on Colorfacts or OpticOne HowTo's unless they are PJ specific. I've also posted some data about other brand PJ's in this thread but only those that were direct candidates for alternative selections. Based on the numerous other "this vs that" threads, those same PJ's are the ones other's are considering, too (e.g. 300E S4, 7205, etc). Maybe that wouldn't be as appropriate in a thead titled "H79 Owners", but under "H79 reviews" I think it is becasue at least some folks who are trying to choose a PJ as I am are interested to know the nitty gritty details before they chose to spend $6-9K on a PJ.

Finally, for those of us who don't have the instruments, nor the experience of a lifetime of adjusting CRT's by eye, having a ballpark idea of a starting place to adjust their own displays is something possibly fun to look at if nothing else. So they can see if the settigns an instrument came up with just happen to work on their PJ to produce that subjectively nice looking pic. BTW, once I get mine adjusted, I'll post all the settings, as Tom and I used to do on the H77 thread. The more of us doing this tweaking, the more likely we are to zero in on some optimal choices IMO.

If instruments show that one PJ or another can't do something it's supposed to do (i.e. properly display primary red), but another PJ can, then that's a point for comparision, something good for a review thread IMO. Similarly for example, if the H79 misproduces red (according to my instrument) and a Marantz S3 also misproduces red in the same manner, such a data point can be discounted at least some since the issue is moot for the given choices, assuming I am right of course.

And that brings me to my final point (opinion); yes, the skill of the calibrator is a factor. I'm no expert, and don't profess to be. But I'm pretty good and may be better than I give myself credit for. But if several folks, some who are apparant experts, and some not, have similar results then a pattern emerges to reinforce whatever findings were made, thus arming the folks reading for review sake with some more information to consider as they make their own choices. Some may have had the luxury of a demo, but lots of folks have to "buy it blind". When I'm doing the later, I want as much info as possible.

And that's all I have to say about that.

;)

Scott..

I have seen (some)(keep this in context to mean not all) calibrations done by ISF'ers and quite frankly I wouldnt let these touch my gear with a barge pole. Getting to know your toy and play with the toy is part of the fun. Experimentation is good. The likelihood that the settings of ones environment with screen size, material, ambient light, wall and ceiling colors .. etc etc will be similar to from ones installation to another will be quite rare. Everyone does not interpret color in the same manner. So even if the machine is telling you one thing ... your eyes may not agree with the machine... and it is your eyes that ultimately should be the guiding force of setting up the piece.

Colorfacts is not perfect.. in the lower ire, I actually find it quite inaccurate... Maybe with the next shootout I can have a colorfacts vs a sencore or other device to compare machine readings.. Trust me ... they will be different.. Each of the projectors spectral behaviour will also not be identical out of the box.. or after a set number of hours.. So possibly as a base line to start from but I would suggest that people take the settings with a grain of salt or only as a starting point,, and play with the toy.. and believe what your own eyes tell you. When I used to develop film slides and make my own prints ... the film would produce different color shifts.. I preferred Fuji film for scenery shots and a brand of Kodak for portrait shots.. You might find a similar experience with settings on your projector for certain types of movies... preferring alternate settings for dark films,, vs say a bright action flick.. or when forced to watch a chic flic.

You won't lose anything from the experience of playing around with it, and getting a better understanding of the toy. Playing with expensive toys is fun.

Robert

mandarax: On all points, especially the last one....agreed.

Originally posted by scotthorton
My take on it is this issue:

Finally, for those of us who don't have the instruments, nor the experience of a lifetime of adjusting CRT's by eye, having a ballpark idea of a starting place to adjust their own displays is something possibly fun to look at if nothing else. So they can see if the settigns an instrument came up with just happen to work on their PJ to produce that subjectively nice looking pic. BTW, once I get mine adjusted, I'll post all the settings, as Tom and I used to do on the H77 thread. The more of us doing this tweaking, the more likely we are to zero in on some optimal choices IMO.

And that's all I have to say about that.

;)

'nuff said. I especially like the point I highlighted above. That's the kind of info I would appreciate being posted here. I know mandarax's further points are kind of what I was talking about in a much more dialed-in way; that all of this is not to be taken as gospel. However, having access to a couple of peoples settings after they've tweaked the machine at their place is potentially very useful, or if nothing else, great stuff for the rest of us to try out in our setups. As I alluded to previously, I am one of those hands-on guys that has built many a Heathkit myself over the years so it's definitely fun to experiment and allow us big boys to play with our toys. Luckily, I've also learned how to finally keep my hands off the stuff too & just enjoy it, which suits my wife & friends just fine so we can just watch a movie all the way through without seeing menus flash up on the screen every 20 minutes. ;)

"Maybe with the next shootout I can have a colorfacts vs a sencore or other device to compare machine readings.."

I read a shootout over at Milori with the sencore and CR6000, CF held it's own and that's just with the Gregtag. Now you can combine both the one-eye and the Tri-chromat types. I'm pretty happy with the combination.

sotagear, I get all the points you've made. I can see how people might lose interest in a thread if it gets bogged down in technical exchanges that don't necessarily relate to the projector being discussed.

I think the only reason there's been excessive technical OpticONE/Colorfacts posts in this thread is because of the discrepancy regarding the red primary. Any difference in measurements that large is going to spark a pretty intensive investigation. Had both OpticONE and Colorfacts shown similar measurements, half the posts in this thread wouldn't even be here.

Cliff (creator of Progressive Labs/OpticONE) is investigating and I imagine we'll resolve things soon in that regard.

I'll be comparing the H79 and 300E tonight and posting my results tomorrow. Should be interesting.

I'm also on a qwest to find a good dvd played to pair up with my H79. I tried the Toshiba Tom is using & liked the picture on the DVI output but couldn't handle the problems with the remote. I'm considering spending the bucks on a 3910 but would love to find a cheaper alternative. scotthorton, how did the picture quality between the D2 & the 3910 compare?

I've noticed on a few discussions about picking a correct screen that many times it's mentioned that certain screens do better for ceiling mounted applications. Please explain why it makes a difference in which screen to use based on whether the image is being projected from the top of the screen or the bottom? Are some screens so limited in their viewing angle that something like this would matter or is there another reason?

Originally posted by sotagear
I'm also on a qwest to find a good dvd played to pair up with my H79. I tried the Toshiba Tom is using & liked the picture on the DVI output but couldn't handle the problems with the remote. I'm considering spending the bucks on a 3910 but would love to find a cheaper alternative. scotthorton, how did the picture quality between the D2 & the 3910 compare?

From what I've read, the Denon 2910 is very close (or maybe even identical) to the 3910 in terms of video quality via DVI. It's the pumped up audio section in the 3910 that makes it a step-up model.

There's also the Pioneer 59AVi. Many favorable reviews of that model. In the same price range as the 3910 though.

I know a lot of people like the Bravos, Momitsus, and other cheapie DVI models, but their deinterlacing is crap.

" I know a lot of people like the Bravos, Momitsus, and other cheapie DVI models, but their deinterlacing is crap. " -

Thats no doubt why my RP56 - SDI - iscan HD combo looks better - even over component!

Watched Lawrence of Arabia SB last night on the H79 from the worst seat in the house ( about 1.1 or 1.2 screen widths away ) - still looked very good. No pixelization to be seen and motion looks about as good as I have seen from a projector. Too much edge enhancment on that movie unfortunately, but close ups are sure stunning! This is one movie that could use an HD - DVD or Blu Ray release.

Originally posted by thirdkind
From what I've read, the Denon 2910 is very close (or maybe even identical) to the 3910 in terms of video quality via DVI. It's the pumped up audio section in the 3910 that makes it a step-up model.

There's also the Pioneer 59AVi. Many favorable reviews of that model. In the same price range as the 3910 though.

I know a lot of people like the Bravos, Momitsus, and other cheapie DVI models, but their deinterlacing is crap.

Ive wandered to if the 2910 would do as good a job. I chose the 3910
waying in at 18 pounds for its extreme chasis build with isolated audio and video sections and its winning benchmark score on Secrets dvd player tests as to the other option of Iscan hd and sdi player , the H77 and h79 do not need scailing for hi def { Both do a superb job} Having less than
$1000 in the 3910 I felt that was the best option for me, with a dvd with
good transfer the picture is just Jaw droping ,

Originally posted by sotagear
I'm also on a qwest to find a good dvd played to pair up with my H79. I tried the Toshiba Tom is using & liked the picture on the DVI output but couldn't handle the problems with the remote. I'm considering spending the bucks on a 3910 but would love to find a cheaper alternative. scotthorton, how did the picture quality between the D2 & the 3910 compare? I had a notion to sell my H77 when I heard about the 79. I was lucky and sold it before the huge price drop. At teh same time I sold my D2 and got the 3910. So I never got to see the D2 and the 3910 in a side-by-side comparison. To make it worse, I didn't get another PJ for a good while as I awaited the 79. But all that said, my subjective memory is that the picture quality on both of them was fine. I have no problems with the PQ of the D2, just didn't like some of it's ergonomic quirks. So not much help I'm afraid except to say the D2 pic was perfectly acceptable to me. I only used it via upscaled 720p DVI, never tried component.

Originally posted by sotagear
I've noticed on a few discussions about picking a correct screen that many times it's mentioned that certain screens do better for ceiling mounted applications. Please explain why it makes a difference in which screen to use based on whether the image is being projected from the top of the screen or the bottom? Are some screens so limited in their viewing angle that something like this would matter or is there another reason? I believe it's beacuse of the way they are engineered to reflect light. A normal reflector (i.e bicycle reflector) is like 2 mirrors at a 90 degree (to each other) angle. If you look into the "V" those 2 mirrors form, no matter the angle you are off from being perpindicular to the "V", you will see yourself. Shine a light into that V, it will shine directly back at you. Some screens behave that way, shining directly back at the source, so a table mount is optimal. Some, like the firehawk are designed to reflect more like a single flat mirror (vs a reflector) A single flat mirror reflects at the "angle of incidence" I believe it's called. So light bounces off it like a pool ball on rail. Leaves at the same angle it came in on in the other direction - well I didn't say that well but the pool ball analogy ought to convey the point. The Firehawk is designed like the later thus ceiling mount is best. Light coming in from above is best reflected in an angle equally downward. Got that straight from the horses mouth, but as for which behave the other way, not sure.

S

drtunes,

The High Power screen refelects back towards the pj, so if you want to get the ful benefit of that high gain screen (2.8?), it will work best with table top mounting the pj.

Gary.

OK, that makes sense. So besides the Firehawk, what other screens that work well with the H79 would be good for ceiling mount? I have some screen samples over here & from what I can get out of these small samples, it looks like the Studiotek 130 looks best (at night w/all lights off), followed by the Firehawk & Da-Lite Matte White. Any ideas if these are good for ceiling mount applications? At present I'm using a diy screen that works quite well but certainly is bettered by the above 3 samples.

You can't beat a Stewart screen, so the Studiotek is a good choice. It has the least color shift I believe - I once saw a 50/50 ST/FH screen in front of an alternative 1.2 gain screen, and whilst the ST looked white, the other screen had a very slight pink tint to it. It wasn't noticeable when viewed on its own though.

The FH looks great for improving black level, and is perfect for rooms with ambient light. I like either screen, but would go for a white screen if ambient isn't a problem.

Gary.

" So besides the Firehawk, what other screens that work well with the H79 would be good for ceiling mount? " -

I like both the DaLite Cinema Vision and depending on your needs, the High Contrast Cinema Vision screens.

I agree with Gary. From the research I did, I'd choose a ST130 with zero ambient, FH with some. The Silverstar seems to be popular here lately, but I havent' seen one and some don't like it's look saying it creates some sparklies. And, it used ot be that you could only get it solid (i.e. not rolled up) but they may have taken care of that. Those are the only 3 I personally would consider though. I've liked the idea of a constant height "score" 2:35 screen with a anamorphic lens but I like the size I have now 16:9 (110") and I don't think I have the light to go wider and add the lens. I may try anyway though cause I'm bull headed :), maybe go a hair smaller for 16:9 to accomodate the plan, and/or make a flip up mount so I can completely remove the lens if I'm doing 4:3 or 16:9. But then I'll have to get a external scaler, and.... This has got to be the most mushrooming hobby I ever had :D. But I digress. If I go that way, I MAY consider a different material, but if I did, I'd get a ST130 since now my room will have 100% light control. Then again, I want to be able to see what I'm eating so I still like to be able to tun on a pointed light source so the FH is probably the way I'd go again.

And PS, FWIW, the Vutech's sttock screen frame on it's fixed screens isn't supposed to be nearly as nice and the velvet frame on the Stewart. You hav to pay extra to get a nice frame with them as I understand it. Stewart is friendly and happy to answer questions with prompt responses. I gave up on even getting a reply from Vutech (tried a couple times). Customer service does have some value to me.

I'll be buying the material & stretching it over my existing DIY screen. So hopefully that won't be a problem if I go with either Stewart screen material. I have a picture I just uploaded in my gallery of my screen fwiw.

Stewart will definately sell the material only. Screen looks nice. Personally, I'd be chicken to break out the staple gun with that high dollar fabric though :). You have 3 phase power?? Looks like your neighbors lights will dim if you turn on your rack ;)

Yeah, I'm a bit aprehensive about stretching that fabric as well, but if I hear there have been few problems encountered with the stewart material by others I'll give it a go.

About the power in the neighborhood dimming, not so unsure about that.:D Actually I was thinking I might get one of those overpriced power things that provides a solid 120V since mine sags all over the place during the course of the day. I know that's normal, but wonder just how much performance may be zapped by the current dips.

Originally posted by sotagear
[B]Yeah, I'm a bit aprehensive about stretching that fabric as well, but if I hear there have been few problems encountered with the stewart material by others I'll give it a go. Sorry, getting off topic here, but FYI, the material isn't stretched much in it's Stewart frame. It's help on with snaps. It's reasonably stiff material, probably not too bad to work with. Just no room for error.

I'll be comparing the H79 and 300E tonight and posting my results tomorrow. Should be interesting.

thirdkind,

Anything to report?

Thanks,

Frank

Has the panning issue been solved on the 79 for those who noticed it on the 77?

What has been implemented to change this "alleged" anomaly?

Thanks

Originally posted by ftlee
thirdkind,

Anything to report?

Thanks,

Frank

There was a shipping mixup so I didn't get the projector last night as expected. It's coming today.

Originally posted by John Tuohy
Has the panning issue been solved on the 79 for those who noticed it on the 77?

What has been implemented to change this "alleged" anomaly?

Thanks

If you read the thread from the beginning, you'll get all the details you could possibly want regarding panning on the H79. In short, it's not an issue anymore.

Thanks

When I have a few spare hours, I will. But by then the 80 will be out.

When I have a few spare hours, I will. But by then the 80 will be out. Just do a search on this thread for panning and user thirdkind. Ought to pop right up..

Some important information for Canadian customers

Optoma is about the only company I know that is selling projectors CHEAPER in Canada then in the USA. I can't give specifics, but the H79 is about 1000-1500 Cdn$ cheaper (after factoring in exchange and 6%duty) through a Canadian dealer. It's really nice to see and a far cry from Sony and Panasonic who both overcharge Canadians by 25-50%

Maybe I shouldn't have posted this. They'll probably raised their prices now

Originally posted by gobrigavitch
Some important information for Canadian customers

Optoma is about the only company I know that is selling projectors CHEAPER in Canada then in the USA. I can't give specifics, but the H79 is about 1000-1500 Cdn$ cheaper (after factoring in exchange and 6%duty) through a Canadian dealer. It's really nice to see and a far cry from Sony and Panasonic who both overcharge Canadians by 25-50%

Maybe I shouldn't have posted this. They'll probably raised their prices now

Gobrigavitch:

Can you please PM the dealer and the price at which you bought your Optoma H79. The reason being that the prices that I was quoted -- two from Toronto based dealers and one from a Montreal based dealer -- were all

(a) In the same ballpark; and
(b) More expensive that the price quoted by AVS..and materially more expensive.

Thanks,

Joel

Originally posted by gobrigavitch
Some important information for Canadian customers

Optoma is about the only company I know that is selling projectors CHEAPER in Canada then in the USA. I can't give specifics, but the H79 is about 1000-1500 Cdn$ cheaper (after factoring in exchange and 6%duty) through a Canadian dealer. It's really nice to see and a far cry from Sony and Panasonic who both overcharge Canadians by 25-50%

Maybe I shouldn't have posted this. They'll probably raised their prices now

gobrigavitch,

I'd also be interested in a PM :)
..thx

For those that are interested, I just did a calibration of an Optoma H79 for someone locally. The calibration came out pretty good.

I will second the suggestion to change the service menu Gamma setting to Gamma-04 and the user gamma to 3. It produces a near perfect 2.5 gamma.

UPDATE 3/22/2005:
Apparently the Gamma changes made in the service menu do not "stick" after a power cycle on the H79. So at the moment, I wouldn't recommend changing the gamma in the service menu. My calibration didn't include any other service menu adjustments so I can't comment on if they would reset after a power cycle.
END UPDATE

Here is a quick rundown:

- I calibrated with bright mode "off". All the following stats are again with bright mode "off".
- The CIE chart shows the red primary is over saturated. It wouldn't bother me IMHO.
- Gamma ended up being 2.47 @D65
- On/off contrast of 2929:1 (0.032/92.6 cd/m2) @D65

Here are all the graphs:
http://www.go-racecar.com/HTStuff/H79/2005-03-19_CIE_Chart.jpg
http://www.go-racecar.com/HTStuff/H79/2005-03-19_Contrast.jpg
http://www.go-racecar.com/HTStuff/H79/2005-03-19_Luminance_Histogram.jpg
http://www.go-racecar.com/HTStuff/H79/2005-03-19_RGB_Levels_Histogram.jpg
http://www.go-racecar.com/HTStuff/H79/2005-03-19_Temperature_Histogram.jpg

Here is the "detailed" calibration summary:
http://www.go-racecar.com/HTStuff/H79/2005-03-19_Detailed_Calibration_Summary.pdf

FWIW, My Sharp 9k measures ~650:1 at D65 (with a Hoya FL-Day filter) and the HT300e I had for a week measured ~980:1 at D65. (And Sim2 swore up and down there was nothing was wrong with the Ht300e I had. Whatever!)

Brad

OK. I know this has been beaten to death, but your numbers support those of Guitarman and others. Did you happen to get a lumen rating for the projector? Or can you compare the output to a 300e -- ie brighter or not?

dD

Great report Brad.

Overall, are you pleased with your choice of the H79? I think most of us would be more than happy with those results - does the image appear as good to you as the calibration results would suggest?

Gary.

bdavidson

I think you are the first Colorfacts calibration to report oversaturated reds though - it could be a sign of a sensor going south - especially with desaturated greens. Which sensor and how old?

Originally posted by digitalDOC
OK. I know this has been beaten to death, but your numbers support those of Guitarman and others. Did you happen to get a lumen rating for the projector? Or can you compare the output to a 300e -- ie brighter or not?


Although I have an inexpensive Light Meter, I don't believe anyone could report accurate lumen ratings that would be good enough for comparison unless I also measured the comparison projector in the exact same environment with the meter at the exact same position. So, no, I don't have a lumen measurement.

But yes it is brighter than the ONE HT300e that I have seen and measured. But, I still contest that the HT300e that I had was seriously defective even if Sim2 denies it.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
Overall, are you pleased with your choice of the H79? I think most of us would be more than happy with those results - does the image appear as good to you as the calibration results would suggest?

I don't own an H79. I was calibrating someone else's. Shortly after I purchased (and returned) a HT300e to replace my Sharp 9k, a new 7 pound 4 ounce entertainment device suddenly appeared in my home. Not at quiet as the H79:

http://www.go-racecar.com/elise/IMG_1449_edited.JPG

And frankly, after my experience with the HT300e, I figured this new one was a much better way to spend my eight grand.

To answer your question though, the image looked great. Excellent contrast and brightness. No panning issues like the H77. Much more pleasing than my Sharp 9k or the 12k (because of the 12k's light output at high contrast modes). It does lose a little focus at the far corners when the lens shift is at its maximum. Nothing major though and not any worse than I have seen it other projectors at 100% offset.

If I had the money, I would buy the H79 and may still someday. I head AVS has an excellent deal :)

Originally posted by krasmuzik
I think you are the first Colorfacts calibration to report oversaturated reds though - it could be a sign of a sensor going south - especially with desaturated greens. Which sensor and how old?

Could be. My Trichromat-1 sensor is about 10 months old. But at the moment, Milori is not returning my emails. I have been trying to get my Optimagery sensor rma'd for months let alone get a calibration for the Trichromat-1.

Brad

bdavidson

I hear ya - it took me a while to get the Spyder RMA!

On Screens...

Stewart screens are generally more expensive because they cost more to produce. Stewart makes their own resins to produce the screen material vs coating a vinyl or fiberglass product. A screen is a long term investment. Any long term investment has a value based on the tenure of ownership. Undoubtedly over the years you will trade up to other projectors but if you can do this without changing the screen every time you move up then it can potentially save you quite a bit of coin. You can get screen materials with the snap studs installed or with velcro if you are trying to DIY a project to save money.. There is a considerable amount of money in an aluminum extrusion vs cut wood.. including the money saved on shipping for the dimensional weight of the box with a frame vs a roll of fabric. A good dealer will advise from factory specs what the proper stretch of the fabric is. It is not rocket science.

In a darkened room .. and in my view everyone should if possible bite the bullet on this one... or at least give it a go with the wif it can make a dramatic improvement to PQ... just do it. The healing process with the wif might be enjoyable.

gobrigavich... Panasonic Canada is a privately held company.. Optoma Canada dealer pricing . me thinks you may have someone actually importing it from the USA.

Robert

Originally posted by bdavidson
For those that are interested, I just did a calibration of an Optoma H79 for someone locally. The calibration came out pretty good. I will second the suggestion to change the service menu Gamma setting to Gamma-04 and the user gamma to 3. It produces a near perfect 2.5 gamma.

Brad

Where in the service menu is the Gamma setting? How do you change it? Thanks!

Originally posted by bdavidson
For those that are interested, I just did a calibration of an Optoma H79 for someone locally. The calibration came out pretty good. I will second the suggestion to change the service menu Gamma setting to Gamma-04 and the user gamma to 3. It produces a near perfect 2.5 gamma.

Here is a quick rundown:

- I calibrated with bright mode "off". All the following stats are again with bright mode "off".
- The CIE chart shows the red primary is over saturated. It wouldn't bother me IMHO.
- Gamma ended up being 2.47 @D65
- On/off contrast of 2929:1 (0.032/92.6 cd/m2) @D65

Here are all the graphs:
http://www.go-racecar.com/HTStuff/H79/2005-03-19_CIE_Chart.jpg
http://www.go-racecar.com/HTStuff/H79/2005-03-19_Contrast.jpg
http://www.go-racecar.com/HTStuff/H79/2005-03-19_Luminance_Histogram.jpg
http://www.go-racecar.com/HTStuff/H79/2005-03-19_RGB_Levels_Histogram.jpg
http://www.go-racecar.com/HTStuff/H79/2005-03-19_Temperature_Histogram.jpg

Here is the "detailed" calibration summary:
http://www.go-racecar.com/HTStuff/H79/2005-03-19_Detailed_Calibration_Summary.pdf

FWIW, My Sharp 9k measures ~650:1 at D65 (with a Hoya FL-Day filter) and the HT300e I had for a week measured ~980:1 at D65. (And Sim2 swore up and down there was nothing was wrong with the Ht300e I had. Whatever!)

Brad

You like 2.50 gamma also, but many suggest the 2.20, wonder why? Your CIE? did you use the limiting color technique? Leave the green brightness alone after first using Avia brightness pattern? Interesting your red was high.

Originally posted by SJHT
Where in the service menu is the Gamma setting? How do you change it? Thanks!
SJHT, you enter the factory menu by simultaneously pressing the enter, resynch and source buttons on the top of the pj. Degamma tables is one of the menu choices. I use 05 there and gamma 1 in the regular picture menu and that probably is close to 04 and gamma 3. I went through some of the degamma choices using a grayfield and chose the one that subjectively looked smoothest.

In a recent recalibration red was also oversaturated using OpticOne/AccuPel very much like Brad's CIE. (How our previous reading put red inside the triangle is a mystery.) Red does look noticeable as probably oversaturated a bit on some material but for me isn't that distracting, and I anticipate it may die down a little as the bulb gets to 100 hours use.

Here's (http://home.earthlink.net/~danrapp/H79/Optoma Final.xls) an .xls report of that calibration but note pre and post calibration are reversed in it.

Dan

Hi Dan,

You don't suppose the different gamma is causing the oversaturated red do you? Until then the red was inside the triangle, and now it isn't, so maybe that's something to do with it?

Gary.

But yes it is brighter than the ONE HT300e that I have seen and measured. But, I still contest that the HT300e that I had was seriously defective even if Sim2 denies it. [/B] The one I was able to see also _measured_ dimmer. That makes 2 at least.

Originally posted by guitarman
You like 2.50 gamma also, but many suggest the 2.20, wonder why? Your CIE? did you use the limiting color technique? Leave the green brightness alone after first using Avia brightness pattern? Interesting your red was high.

Optimal Gamma Setting for movies is 2.5. And of course I calibrated to the limiting red. Thats why the RGB histogram is relatively flat above 80IRE. Since red is limiting, green and blue will spike after 90IRE. Thats how you calibrate to the limiting color. Green and blue bias and gain will almost always need to be adjusted.

When calibrating any display you first need to determine which of the 3 primaries is the limiting factor. In the case of the H79 and most projectors (due to its bulb genre) it is in the RED portion. As you crank up the output levels you will reach a point where the RED is unable to match the output needed to balance the GREEN and BLUE. Any further attempts to increase output will see the picture taking on a BLUE and/or GREEN hue due to this previously peaked output from RED. To balance this situation you can either correct it by placing a colored filter in front of the lens, which will effectively decrease the BLUE and GREEN proportion at any given light output, or you can choose to drop the GREEN & BLUE using the internal adjustments. Determining when the RED output peaks is _THE_ difficult part and is not easily determined without some sort of instrumentation.

BIAS ( i think it was called brightness) will shift the curvature of the output UP or DOWN and the GAIN (contrast) will alter the slope of the output. A preliminary greyscale with the values zeroed showed the general trend of each color. I then put up a 20 IRE window and adjusted the RGB brightness controls to give a temperature of 6500K. I then put up a 90 IRE window and adjusted the RGB contrast controls to read 6500K. Changing the brightness will alter the darker levels and vice versa so it is necessary to iterate between each end until both ends read correct. I then ran another greyscale graph to see how it looked. I noticed a sudden increase in color temp just beyond 90 IRE so that told me that RED output was peaking just past 90 IRE. I then put up a 100 IRE pattern and slowly decreased the RED gain until I detected a shift of color balance according to the readout. Remember, at this point RED was already at its peak, now I wanted to determine when it just started to drop. Having determined this point for RED output, I then balanced the temperature to 6500K using the BLUE and GREEN bias controls. I then checked 20 IRE pattern and adjusted accordingly, making sure I did not use the RED controls. Recheck 100 IRE pattern again and iterate as necessary.

That is how you calibrate to the limiting color. Once you reach the limit of Red Gain, you lock red and only adjust blue and green gain and bias. I don't know where you got the idea that you leave the green brightness alone after first using Avia brightness pattern? No wonder your color shifts to green and blue after 90IRE as shown in your last RGB histogram.

Brad

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
Hi Dan,

You don't suppose the different gamma is causing the oversaturated red do you? Until then the red was inside the triangle, and now it isn't, so maybe that's something to do with it?

Gary.

I did a primaries reading before adjusting the service menu gamma. So, no I don't think it is related. If I get to calibrate a H79 again, Ill make sure to check.

Originally posted by bdavidson
I did a primaries reading before adjusting the service menu gamma. So, no I don't think it is related. If I get to calibrate a H79 again, Ill make sure to check.

Brad,

I am interested in calibration results for the H79 and any information about the service menu contents. Specifically does the menu have any controls for decoder calibration or color matrix adjustments of the primaries and secondaries. After looking at your results I am wondering if your CIE chart is skewed because the probe is a tristimulus colorimeter. Joe Kane says that calibrating DLP should only be done with a spectroradiometer.

Colorfacts has 2 settings that are defaulted to the on position that would affect your readings. Uncheck the box that says "constrain to gamut" and also uncheck the box that says "Calculate luminance of primaries instead of measuring". Let us know if that changes your readings.

Joe Kane says that calibrating DLP should only be done with a spectroradiometer. Do you have any pointer to where he discusses this? Which trist. did he base this comment on? And when. Probes improve, DLP's improve, I don't see a technical reason this would be valid today. Thanks, Scott

I have to cancel my comparison of the H79 and 300E. Unfortunately, my H79 is defective and unable to hold any bias/gain adjustments I make in the user menu and service menu. Those of you who've read my previous posts may also remember my difficulties with severe color shift whenever the controls are touched, requiring a re-sync to get back to normal. Calibration is therefore impossible.

The only thing I could do to get proper colorimetry/greyscale on the H79 was to drop contrast until everything evened out. Hardly optimal.

There are a few things I can say though, and I have to admit I'm fairly surprised.

The H79 handles motion and pans noticeably better than the 300E. Given the 300E's use of a 6-segment color wheel, I thought it would at least equal the H79 in this regard. I picked up on motion dither immediately with the 300E, however. As I've said in the past, the H79 is about the best DLP I've seen when it comes to motion and pans.

The H79 also has much smoother gradients than the 300E. Viewing the "Banding Check" test pattern on Avia PRO, which displays white, red, green, and blue gradients, revealed very sharp and blocky transitions on the 300E. On the H79, these gradients were rendered very smoothly.

The cooling fan on the bottom of the 300E is quite loud. Possibly the loudest projector I've ever had in my possession. I was sure the SX21 would hold that title.

There's no comparison between the two in terms of build quality. After owning both an H77 and H79, I'm convinced Optoma has a lot of room for improvement in this department. The optics are definitely flakey (the image shifts a bit when focus is adjusted) and the lens shift dial doesn't feel very solid. The 300E is built like a tank with very solid optics and zero play or wiggle in its controls. To those who would say the 300E's higher cost provides such niceties, it should be noted that the Domino 30H I had previously--with a street price lower than the H79--has the same excellent build quality.

The 300E also happens to look very nice as well. Too bad it needs to be covered with a hush box (in my opinion).

The H79 throws a fantastic image, but its build quality and questionable engineering leave me wondering if I can count on its reliable operation in the long term. If the optical path is loose, how tightly engineered can I expect the color wheel to be? Will it be rattling after 2000 hours? Will the lens shift dial break with too much use? What about the focus motor? Can I expect my replacement H79 to start acting up and lose its settings?

I don't feel I should have these insecurities in this price range. The image quality is up there with the best of them; I'd like to see Optoma get the build quality up there too.

Anyone have a firmware that reflect's their unit is a H79? Or anything other than a H77 with C17 which isn't even the latest H77? Just curious if there are any differing units out there or they are all the same.

(It's safe and easy to view it. Simultaneously pressing the enter, resynch and source buttons on the top of the pj to display the service menu and see the firmware version. After viewing the firmware, just exit the menu, don't poke around unless you KNOW what you are doing and have a plan. Don't look around for curiosity sake, there is at least one spot in there that will do an automatic setting and hose you. ADP?, forget it's name.)

" The optics are definitely flakey (the image shifts a bit when focus is adjusted) " -

I haven't noticed this on mine, and since I use my H79 on two different screens, I use the power zoom and focus alot.

" and the lens shift dial doesn't feel very solid. " -

Now that I agree with, but I only use that once and will never touch it again.

" The H79 throws a fantastic image, but its build quality and questionable engineering leave me wondering if I can count on its reliable operation in the long term. " -

I bought 2 years extra warranty.

School of Rock on Showtime / HD looked fantastic last night, as did I - Robot on dvd on Sat. night. I'm very pleased with the image!

I bought 2 years extra warranty. What's that run? Is it via Optoma directly? The regular warranty is 2 years already right? Thanks, Scott

Originally posted by scotthorton
Do you have any pointer to where he discusses this? Which trist. did he base this comment on? And when. Probes improve, DLP's improve, I don't see a technical reason this would be valid today. Thanks, Scott

Scott,

My trouble with using the Milori Trichromat-1 Colorimeter probe was inconsistent readings on digital displays with DLP being the biggest problem. I met Joe Kane at a trade show and he confirmed I should use my Spectroradiometer for calibrating DLP. It is my understanding that the Tri probes are using colored gels and mathematical calculations based on calibrated readings from a spectro during the probes design process. Since this thread is posting graphs of the H79 primaries and secondaries I was hoping to see a CIE graph measured with a spectro probe for comparison. All of the manufacturers do a good job with the Tri probes and I really like the additional range for low light levels but I only trust them for CRT.

Do you see any color decoder or color isolation controls in the H79 service menu?

" What's that run? Is it via Optoma directly? The regular warranty is 2 years already right? " -

$295.00, yes, correct.

Barry: No, there are none AFAIK. As a data point of interest, I'm using the OpticOne probe. It's a few generation past the one you use, I don't know how much difference that makes. It measures the H79 saturated on red consistently. In the same run I measured the Marantz S3 and the Infocus 7205's primaries. Only the 79 measured out. MY point is that there was some concern that the OpticOne sensor was reading everything saturated red, but from those 2 limited test's mine isn't. I'll post the 3 CIE's if anyone want's to see them..

I agree with Craig's comments. I also have used the focus & zoom a lot the last few weeks as I have been messing with the perfect placement for ceiling mounting. I never have the image shift on me & once you set your projector you never touch the lens shift again so not sure if that's a problem for most. Sounds like you need to return your H79 for another. Seems you may have gotten a bad unit.

Craig, watched School of Rock on Dish HD last night as well. Agreed, it looked so good I watched the whole thing again even though I already saw it on DVD!

Originally posted by Barry928
Scott,

My trouble with using the Milori Trichromat-1 Colorimeter probe was inconsistent readings on digital displays with DLP being the biggest problem. I met Joe Kane at a trade show and he confirmed I should use my Spectroradiometer for calibrating DLP. It is my understanding that the Tri probes are using colored gels and mathematical calculations based on calibrated readings from a spectro during the probes design process. Since this thread is posting graphs of the H79 primaries and secondaries I don't know where you got the idea that you leave the green brightness alone after first using Avia brightness pattern?. All of the manufacturers do a good job with the Tri probes and I really like the additional range for low light levels but I only trust them for CRT.

Do you see any color decoder or color isolation controls in the H79 service menu?

"I don't know where you got the idea that you leave the green brightness alone after first using Avia."

I got that brightness format from Glen, he posted a how to a month ago with this detail. I think allot are using this method from my readings.

H79 one/cie? here you go -

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79factory1eyecie.jpg

Hi guys: I wasn't gonna bring it up but now the subject is broached... On the 79 I have, when using the focus adjustment, I have some "slop". If I adjust the focus to where I pass the ideal point of focus, then change directions to focus back the other direction, I get a significant jump in the projected image. With the PJ mounted at 17' or so (max for my 110") the amount of shift is about 5/8". It happens in both focus directions. It's clearly a mechanical issue with some play or slop in the mechanism. I'm working on a replacement but there won't be any point in that if everyone is seeing it. My H77 didn't do it, or if it did it was not this much or I'd have remembered.

Right now, this PJ is right side up, on a high shelf, approx 7" below it's max lens shift location.

No one else seeing it?

Edit: typo and PS:

I didn't say, but to be clear, the image shift I see is left to right, not up and down. The image movement is obvious and only happens when changing directions on the focus.

" No one else seeing it? " -

I don't believe mine does that. Mine is upside down ( ceiling mounted ). Not sure how close to max lens shift but not at maximum.

Barry928

Milori ColorFacts owned by ColorVision/DataColor would rather disagree with you and Joe Kane, as well as the ISF sponsored by Sencore as well as OpticOne's developer sponsored by AVIA

As long as the filters have not aged and as long as the reference calibration was done properly the type of Trichomat used in all these companies sensors work just fine on non CRT displays. What is being questioned is did OpticOne or Milori calibrate improperly - or does someone have aged filters.

The trick is the color sensors have the response of the human eye - what you say is true of color sensors that are simple RGB filters - but nobody has sold those models for years.

http://www.milori.com/articles/color_measurement.asp

"
The two best instruments for accurately modeling the eye at a cost-effective price point would be:
A tristimulus colorimeter with filters that very closely match the standard observer curves
A spectroradiometer with enough resolution to capture all of the detail in the 'standard observer' "

guitarman

Green is important because it is the primary determinant of luminance - maximize Green and you get a brighter display. The eye is more sensitive to Red/Blue error so I disagree that one should fix Green - if I have a choice I prefer to increase Green over the other two. What one should do is find the Green gain clipping point, and the Green bias dithering point and never adjust above those points. But this should be done for Red/Blue as well.

Usually DLP limits will be Red (this is not true on optically optimized DLP!) so it is best to find that point (by DisplayMate - or watching colortemp go south at 100IRE) and lock Red in ColorFacts. Then make Green/Blue adjustments with preference to increasing Green - as long as neither is over their limit. I had requested ColorFacts implement max limits some time ago - seems the DataColor transition is killing any updates at the moment.

scotthorton

The SP7205 should read reference HD Red if you used Windows Desktop over PC DVI.. I can compare with my Spyder2 measurement (not the one in my shootout review - with the aged Spyder1)

"What one should do is find the Green gain clipping point, and the Green bias dithering point and never adjust above those points."

Isn't that what I'm doing? First I find the contrast color limit which is Red for the H79, then I have to use both green and blue to reach 65k.

In the brightness area I've set the dither point when having brightness user at the correct spot. This leaves me red and blue to get to 65k on the bias side. Plus a re-check of the user brightness/contrast and if needed back to the 65k calibrations.

Kevin: IIRC, it was right on red with HD colorspace, and DVI via Denon 3910, I don't have a HT PC (yet)

Re green and blue... What method do you use to find their lowest points? When I was just starting to look at it the other day, I found I could go to -5 on the H79 on B&G and it was at that point each stopped producing anything. At -4 I began to see some output, although it was dithering.

Thanks,
Scott

krasmuzik,

I would love it if my Tri probe was stable on digital displays. I read on the Milori forums the Tri probe needs to be "trained" from the spectro probe for each display or the error can be as great as 15%.

Is the OpticOne probe really 2 generations newer than my Milori Tri ?

I am in agreement with krasmuziks analysis ! The only significant reason to use a spectroradiometer given todays current probe offerings is that it is capable of measuring directly from the screen which takes into account the spectral shift of the screen material on the systems calibration. The CA-6X / OpticONE color analyzer are the only tristimulus analyzers to address this issue by use of XYZ screen offset files (made using a PhotoResearch PR-650) allowing the calibrator to orient the tristimulus sensor towards the projector taking full advantage of the greater light level available. The offset file provides a calibration identical to that made using a spectroradiometer as the screens chromaticity shift is dialed out of the calibration. You are therefore calibrating the system rather then the display itself to the selected White target level.

Spectroradiometers are typically extremely slow in performing measurements especially at low light levels. Unless you have access to a Minolta CS-1000 or a PhotoResearch PR-705 (these both cost in excess of $25,000) that is capable of measuring to .01 fL you typically are not able to measure accurately below 1.0 fL with most spectroadiometers. The inconsistent readings that some people experience with the probes which they are using is due to the integration time of the device which is typically quite slow at low light levels (once per three seconds below 1.0 fL) vs our probe integrating at a rate of six samples per second). The slower rate will provide more jitter to the measurement as fewer samples are made. Our software due to the increased sampling speed of the probe is also able to provide the user with adjustable averaging of up to 50 measured samples. This provides far greater stability and measurement accuracy of the displayed data.

guitarman

green dither is most noticeable - but get your eagle eyes out - because red/blue dither exists as well! Very very hard to see with a NDG segment colorwheel though!

scotthorton

Lowest points are easy for offsets - if you have AVIA PRO the greyscale patterns include the brightness/contrast minipattern on the edge so you can catch yourself. I prefer to not use the brightness/contrast control - I use RGB to maximize contrast/brightness while doing greyscale.

So is adjusting RGB bias controls individually until dither just disappears a solid and reliable method of tuning greyscale at the low end? Is it at least a good starting point?

thirdkind

That is what I do - then I measure at 30IRE and cut offsets to get it right making sure I do not go to far clipping the brightness pattern.

Make sure you search out a reference gamma curve - otherwise you will mistrack somewhere. I export the CIE chart in ColorFacts to Excel and plot it on a log-log scale to find the reference gamma curves - they should be flat on log-log. (the CIE chart has all the data in the other charts). I should request a ColorFacts chart update for log/log....(now watch this be in the next OpticOne release :D)

Make sure you search out a reference gamma curve - otherwise you will mistrack somewhere. I export the CIE chart in ColorFacts to Excel and plot it on a log-log scale to find the reference gamma curves - they should be flat on log-log. (the CIE chart has all the data in the other charts). I should request a ColorFacts chart update for log/log....(now watch this be in the next OpticOne release :D) [/B] OpticOne already does it. It will plot a gamma against a desired regerence gamma in real time if that's what you mean.

are easy for offsets - if you have AVIA PRO the greyscale patterns include the brightness/contrast minipattern on the edge so you can catch yourself. I prefer to not use the brightness/contrast control - I use RGB to maximize contrast/brightness while doing greyscale. [/B] Good news they are easy, but I'm not following you. I dont' have Avia Pro.

I simply brought up a black screen. Then I lowered every color's RGB to way below it's minimum (i.e. -20 on user H79 controls). Then one color at a time, I raised the bias until I could see anything. This happened at -4 for B & G and for B&G the first sign of any change was dithering just started to appear. The first sign of anything on R was also at -4 but I didn't see dithering on R.

Is this what you mean?

If not, literally what do you look for when as you do each RGB bias?

Thanks,
Scott

Scott

That sounds right - then when you do the greyscale you just cut the gains to hit D65. Jump back to a brightness pattern to make sure you do not cut them all too far during your iterations - RGB offsets are interactive with brightness.

Red dithering is very hard to see - you can see a red shift usually though.

Originally posted by krasmuzik
Scott

That sounds right - then when you do the greyscale you just cut the gains to hit D65. Jump back to a brightness pattern to make sure you do not cut them all too far during your iterations - RGB offsets are interactive with brightness.

Red dithering is very hard to see - you can see a red shift usually though. Thanks, that is what I was doing. When I start the grayscale, I only add to balance to D65. As for red, yes I found it's "spot" by watching for the shift which I can see. It would be a whole lot easier without Optoma's "spotlight yellow" menu background that lights up the room.

I need to start a "what Optoma needs to change" thread. Maybe they'll read it if I summarize it all in one place. So far off the top of my head I have from myself and others:

1) need Discrete IR codes
2) Work on sync speed, slowest PJ tested.
3) Change or allow change of color on menus
4) Adjustable primaries
5) different power LED indicator
6) room for improvement on lens shift mechanism

Thanks,
Scott

scotthorton

Good luck with your list! Since Optoma does not really sell in custom installation then they would have to consider if AVS tweakers constitute their market!

And here it is:
What to do to improve the Optoma H79 list
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=522551

Originally posted by krasmuzik
scotthorton

Good luck with your list! Since Optoma does not really sell in custom installation then they would have to consider if AVS tweakers constitute their market! Market is market and here they have a forum full of folks who spread the word. And a growing list of owners. Since they don't have controlled sales, and thus razor thin margins, they don't have a lot of B&M folks selling them. If the market is internet buyers, they will do their research and likely many will read these threads. Endorsement by a pile of owners and experts is good press. And conversley, if the experts and owners think there are issues, then those folks will go look elsewhere, maybe for a Infocus <smile>. With the flood of new H77 owners due to the recent price plumet, what a nice carrot they could have to hold if all these little things were spiffed up on the 79. After all, if one dosen't need a light cannon, and they don't need the hand holding of a boutique shop, touch up some of these details would move their PJ to an easy choice in a tough market I'd think.

Is everyone using DVI on the H79 or are there any component users
out there willing to comment on PQ between the two or by itself?

I have both hooked up, and frequently use component. I can't see much difference with either HDTV or DVD's from my setup ( YMMV ).

The component input is very clean. I didn't do much DVD viewing via component, but my HD box is connected via component, and HD broadcasts look stunning.

The H79 has its issues, but it does project a spectacular image.

That's reassuring feedback. Waiting on my H79, should be here in a
couple of days..

Just got done watching The Iron Giant. The colors were amazing and the image was rock solid. I felt like I was watching film.

Whatever faults I or others may find with the H79, it still accomplishes its most important task: presenting a top-quality image.

I really do think it's quite possibly the best looking projector I've ever seen. I requested a replacement in the hopes that a new one will be free of the problems I'm experiencing. The image is too good not to give it one more chance.

I just swapped back and forth between DVI & component while watching a few HD broadcasts tonight from my Dish 921 receiver. I always thought the 2 were real close, but tonight while viewing over the air broadcasts of CSI and the tonight show, it was definitely the DVI that was more 3d and a tad sharper and clearer. Again not by much, but it was more apparent tonight.

Or maybe it's because I'm so excited to finally have gotten this projector ceiling mounted tonight.:cool:

Has anyone else besides Scott and Tom measured the lumens output of their H79?

Thanks,

Frank

Originally posted by thirdkind
Unfortunately, my H79 is defective and unable to hold any bias/gain adjustments I make in the user menu and service menu.

The H79 I calibrated over the weekend is running into similar troubles. Apparently the Gamma changes made in the service menu do not "stick" after a power cycle on the H79. So at the moment, I wouldn't recommend changing the gamma in the service menu. My calibration didn't include any other service menu adjustments so I can't comment on if they would reset after a power cycle.

Although reverting back to the 00 gamma didn't effect the greyscale that much (its still flat from 20 to 100), it did require readjusting contrast and brightness settings and could do with a new full greyscale calibration at the default gamma setting. The gamma graph isn't as smooth at 00 vs 04, but its not horrible. Depends on how much of a perfectionist you are. It ended up boosting the contrast to ~3200:1 also.

Barry928,

Although I specifically measured primaries to produce the graph I posted, I did try the two options you suggested on colorfacts: Uncheck constrain to gamut and Uncheck Calculate luminance of primaries instead of measuring. Nether option effected the CIE graph.

FWIW... Here is a tip for anyone using colorfacts. If you lock a color during calibration (say red), the lock maintains itself after shutting down Colorfacts and effects subsequent grayscale readings. I have gotten burned on this a few times.

Brad

Originally posted by bdavidson Apparently the Gamma changes made in the service menu do not "stick" after a power cycle on the H79. Brad: The "power cycle" you refer to... Do you mean a soft power down (i.e. turn off with remote then back on) or a hard power cycle (i.e. unplug)?

Thanks,
Scott

I just looked at the gamma table and mine it's at 00. This morning I re-did the grayscale with the one-eye between 30 and 90ire, worked hard at keeping the brightness dithers at the exact spot when altering brightness bias. Lots of dark readings and got a CR of 4900.1 lol. High power screen though. ;)

Originally posted by ftlee
Has anyone else besides Scott and Tom measured the lumens output of their H79?

Sure I did...

- at 100 IRE With the meter about an inch away from my projector, it overloaded the sensor. Something like > 1 billion lux.

- at 0 IRE With the meter at the screen it real .00 lux.

- at 0 IRE if the LED on the H79 isn't taped up, the meter measured about 500 lux higher about 3 feet from the projector.

- With white peaking on, 100 IRE lux was higher.

- A red deficient calibration above 80 IRE measures 5% higher lux than my 6500k calibration above 90 IRE.

Does that help? :) Lumens measurements from manufacturers are just as bogus as the ones I listed above.

Sincerely, I really think your barking up the wrong tree. There are so many variables with this measurement that you are not going to get anything worth comparing unless the same person measured the two projectors your comparing in the exact same way and exact same environment.

With all of Tom's various posts, I'm not even clear what contrast measurements go with which grayscale calibrations let alone what the grayscale looked like when his lumens calculation was done.

Both Scotthorton and I reported that the H79 looks and measures much brighter than the HT300e. Without seeing both for yourself, I'm not sure if you are going to get much better.

If I may make a request: When posting measured numbers like contrast or lumens, PLEASE post the RGB histogram graph from 20IRE to 100IRE and Gamma chart in the same post. It will really help make things clear.

Brad

Originally posted by scotthorton
Brad: The "power cycle" you refer to... Do you mean a soft power down (i.e. turn off with remote then back on) or a hard power cycle (i.e. unplug)?

Soft power with the remote.

Originally posted by guitarman
I just looked at the gamma table and mine it's at 00.

I corrected my post, you are correct that the default Gamma table is 00, not 01.

Originally posted by bdavidson
Soft power with the remote. Stink. Something to add to the wish list. Allow gamma table selection on service menu to commit to NVRAM (stick) through power cycle... Maybe there is a way already and we just don't know it (can always hope :))

"If I may make a request: When posting measured numbers like contrast or lumens, PLEASE post the RGB histogram graph from 20IRE to 100IRE and Gamma chart in the same post. It will really help make things clear."

I posted the 4900.1 becuse it was ridiculous, usually I get a lower reading with the one-eye. But this time -
0.005fl
22.3fl
=4900.1

Normally I'll get 2900.1 to 3300.1 with the Tri-chromat aimed at the PJ.

Tom,

Since you seem to have an "in" at Optoma, I'd really appreciate it if you could speak to them about these issues with the H79 losing its settings. Can you find out if there's a separate procedure for saving service menu settings so we can be sure they stick after powering down?

I have another H79 on the way, but with repeated reports from multiple users regarding this problem, I'm hesitant to accept it.

Can you find out if there's a separate procedure for saving service menu settings so we can be sure they stick after powering down? re the service menu settings saving... It's only the gamma that's apparantly being tossed as far as we know right? At least on the H77 (and the 79 appears to have identical firmware) I never had any trouble with color settings being remembered.

One other thing to verify in case it wasn't already is that the gamma is being lost on the same input at the same resolution. Some of the service menu settings on my H77 were input and resolution specific. I never changed the gamma in the SM. I don't remember being able to.

Originally posted by scotthorton
One other thing to verify in case it wasn't already is that the gamma is being lost on the same input at the same resolution. Some of the service menu settings on my H77 were input and resolution specific.

Yes, it appeared to be over 720p DVI. I did think of that though. 720p DVI is the only input I calibrated. (outboard scaler.. bla bla bla)

Brad

Same here, picture, DLP and ADC settings would stay the way you left them. I never tried the service gamma's I'll ask if we should or not. Lately I've just been using the user advanced leaving service at stock.

Adjusting the service menu gamma is necessary for proper D65 with 2.2 gamma. The default 00 degamma table has that nasty hump at 80 IRE. Not sure why they'd go with that as the default when they obviously have other proper gammas at their disposal.

Thirdkind,

I apologize in advance if I missed it before........but how are rainbows on H79 v 12K..........I read that several said Rainbows are least noticeable on H79 and Marantz?

Thanks,

I'd say they're about the same. No significant difference in my opinion.

When I bring up the service menu on my unit, right at the top of the menu in big letters it says "H77".
On the case and on the box my unit came in it says "H79".
Do I have a H77 in disguise?
I ordered it from our sponsors at AVS.

Frank

The H79 says "Optoma Dark Chip 3" on top of the pj (see Tom's first post in this thread, under "proof"). Someone probably forgot to change the name in the software.

Dan

My service menu says:
V77
V.C17 November 18,2004 - - NTSC

Does anybody show something else on their H79?

Frank

I think there is some remedial programming that they have left to do! I have heard that the EDID doesn't even show 1280x720 as an allowable Rez. Guess they were in a heck of hurry !

I have been just lurking and watching the thread unfold since I can't add anything substantial. I will echo thirdkind's request to hopefully find out about the PJ forgetting stuff - thats nuts. I hope it is just an easy thing - you know press 5 buttons simultaneously and click your heels or some such :)

My H79's service menu also identifies the projector as the H77 with the C17 firmware. Guess they were in a bit of a rush.

Even my HTPC identifies the projector as "H77" via the EDID.

Originally posted by thirdkind
Tom,

Since you seem to have an "in" at Optoma, I'd really appreciate it if you could speak to them about these issues with the H79 losing its settings. Can you find out if there's a separate procedure for saving service menu settings so we can be sure they stick after powering down?

I have another H79 on the way, but with repeated reports from multiple users regarding this problem, I'm hesitant to accept it.

I talked with the engineer about the De-gamma table save. He'll talk to Taiwan about it. But did say the tunings relate to each signal and to make sure when you power down and back up you're looking at the same signal again. He said maybe de-gamma is locked to go back to de-fault and will look for a work around.

I also mentioned the wish list and put moving the menu box on the top of my list. :)

Originally posted by guitarman
I also mentioned the wish list and put moving the menu box on the top of my list. :) Discrete IR...Discrete IR...Discrete IR....you are getting sleepy.....you will tell Wing he needs to program discrete IR.....;)
Scott

I mentioned the discrete's also. I told him to take a look at the wish list. He said Taiwan looks in here from time to time also.

One thing Wing liked to hear is I said we have a member who's a stickler for details, not naming names (thirdkind) :). I told him his reference PJ was the Sharp Z12000 and that he said it's looks like he has a new reference now (H79). The makers always feel good when their creation recipe makes people happy. I'll bet we get some of the things on the wish list.

I told him his reference PJ was the Sharp Z12000 and that he said it's looks like he has a new reference now (H79).

I do not recall ThirdKind saying this... ThirdKind????

Frank

Yeah he's starting to like this projector. No one brings up the power brightness I think the H79 has. It's still blasting a strong white level with 3D image. Way stronger than the H77. Not just 10% by a long shot.

Originally posted by Guitarman
I told him his reference PJ was the Sharp Z12000 and that he said it's looks like he has a new reference now (H79).
Originally posted by ftlee
I do not recall ThirdKind saying this... ThirdKind????
Originally posted by thirdkind
I really do think it's quite possibly the best looking projector I've ever seen. I requested a replacement in the hopes that a new one will be free of the problems I'm experiencing. The image is too good not to give it one more chance.

The good:

In terms of overall image quality, I do think the H79 has the best image I've seen.

The 12K may have the highest calibrated contrast on record from an HD2+ DLP, but it's fairly dim with the iris all the way down, and you can't really appreciate contrast that high unless you have a totally blacked out room and black walls. The H79 has a nice balance between brightness and contrast; high enough contrast that most people's rooms would be the limiting factor, but also high enough brightness for comfortable viewing on a matte white screen, which is what I use.

The H79's handling of gradients (transitions) is smooth and natural.

There is negligible dithering during motion and panning, at least equal to, and perhaps even better than, the Sharp 12K.

HD looks great on the H79. Most people assume this is the case across the board, but it's surprising how bad even good HD can look when it's processed poorly. I'd still put the 12K on top in this regard because of its film detection, but the H79 is very, very close.

The H79 is the quietest projector I've ever owned--by far. It's well ahead of its most expensive competitors. I'm stunned other manufacturers are still so far behind in this area.


The bad:

The H79's primary issues come down to build quality and usability. There's a certain attention to detail that's involved if you want to be considered high end.

There are too many reports of "slop" in the optical path for it to be a fluke, particularly since it started with the H77 and has continued with the H79. It's an ongoing problem that needs to be tightened up.

My difficulties with the user controls producing unusual results have also been documented with the H77. Another ongoing issue.

Default gamma is off. Why? The have a perfectly good degamma table sitting right there in the service menu.

The remote is junk. I plan on programming my universal remote as soon as I have time to do so.

The menu is bright yellow and toward the center of the screen. Annoying during calibration. Make it black or transparent and let the user select its position.


Comparing my good list to my bad list, I'd say it's absolutely worth giving the H79 a shot provided you have a patient dealer who's willing to swap them out until you get a good one.

" Comparing my good list to my bad list, I'd say it's absolutely worth giving the H79 a shot provided you have a patient dealer who's willing to swap them out until you get a good one." -

I'm glad I got a good one first time around, even if my dealer ( Jason here at AVS ) is patient!!

I'll see if we can get a website download for some of the convenience features. It would be simple for the factory plus these wouldn't be guarded performance firmwares.

I don't believe they have a way to split it. It's a all or none affair when loading their eeprom.

Downloadable, detailed documentation on what each service menu item actualy does would be helpful on the other hand. And something that could be done tomorrow if they were willing. I'd gladly sign a non-disclosure agreement for anything they want to let go of.

Scott

Sorry to sound ignorant, but I am :confused:

I've been using a 4:3 PJ up to now with a seperate scaler & progressive DVD player to feed it 1024x768 for 4:3 and 720p for widescreen.

If I get the H79, since it's 720p native, can I just send it the 480p signal from the DVD player & let the PJ upscale it to 720p? Or will I still need my seperate scaler between the DVD player and the PJ?

Could someone explain this a little for me?

Originally posted by 3D Guy
Sorry to sound ignorant, but I am :confused:

I've been using a 4:3 PJ up to now with a seperate scaler & progressive DVD player to feed it 1024x768 for 4:3 and 720p for widescreen.

If I get the H79, since it's 720p native, can I just send it the 480p signal from the DVD player & let the PJ upscale it to 720p? Or will I still need my seperate scaler between the DVD player and the PJ?

Could someone explain this a little for me?

3D Guy:

The answer is..it depends. The reason being that one of your scaler or your projector will be needed to scaele the DVD's 480p output to 720p.

The best thing to to is to test which one does the better job of scaling and use that method.

The other interesting thing is to also test what does a better job of converting other sources (i.e. SDTV) to 720p.

Hope that helps.

Joel

Originally posted by 3D Guy If I get the H79, since it's 720p native, can I just send it the 480p signal from the DVD player & let the PJ upscale it to 720p? Yes, you may. Or will I still need my seperate scaler between the DVD player and the PJ? "Need" is the key word there. No, you don't "need" an external scaler, the PJ will scale for you. It will both downconvert 1080i to 720p and upconvert 480x to 720p.

IMO, the PJ has a good scaler, so you may "want" to use your external scaler if it is one that will do a better job than the PJ's scaler. That's just gonna depend on which scaler/deinterlacer is better. But you won't "need" an external scaler. I have a Denon DVD player and I can send 480p or 720p to the PJ which is perfectly happy with either for example. I also have a Comcast HD box that I can send SD channels in 480i or upconverted. The PJ does a better job of upconverting in that case, so for PQ, 480i from the HD box would be preferable.

Be advised however the H79 is a little slower than it's competitors on resyncing to different resolution sources. So if you do have an external scaler (that does a good job) you could prevent any PJ resyncing by sending everything through an external scaler so the PJ always sees the same signal type.

HTH,
Scott

WOW!

Thanks for helping me understand this. I was afraid to post anything here since I'm not as educated in the HT area as most of you are & didn't know if it was appropriate for me to just jump in like this.

Nice to know y'all don't bite LOL! :)
(at least not mid-week anyway)

I'm using an inexpensive Sony NS575P DVD player with the CenterStage CS-2 scaler. PQ seems flawless although I don't know anything about B or W "crushing" or if it's happening with my setup. I've only tried calibrating with DVE and Sound & Vision. It appears the PJ is very limited. :(

My PJ's a 4:3 light cannon Mits XD480U. 2200:1 CR but I don't see it, even in eco w/lowered brightness. Its 12 degree DMD has the bigger dimples w/lots of "dancing ants" in black areas. Although it has some HT settings, I don't think it's a very good HT PJ even for 4:3 movies. Maybe if you had a 300" screen.

The H79 will be a big jump for me in PQ. From what I've read it appears to have the best blacks around right now. Tom/Guitarman said the CV 1.3 is a good screen choice for me, as I have totally controlled lighting & I'm afraid the HCCV might be too dim for me. I'm afraid of sparkles with any higher gain.

Does anyone know if the H79 will display 2.35 full panel so I can use an anamorphic lens?

"Originally posted by 3D Guy Does anyone know if the H79 will display 2.35 full panel so I can use an anamorphic lens? " -

I thought it does when using the " Letterbox " setting, although I always used my iscan hd's " letterbox " setting instead ( faster to access the button ).

Letterbox should take non-anamorphic widescreen transfers and stretch them for proper display on the H79's 16:9 panel.

Theoretically, if you selected "letterbox" while viewing an anamorphic 2.35:1 transfer, it should perform the same function and stretch the image portion of the frame to fill the entire panel.

Craig,

I kinda know what you mean. I can set my DVD player's output to 16:9, scaler's input to 4:3, output to 4:3 XGA. Any other res than XGA (1024x768) won't work.

This uses all 1024x768 pixels for 16:9 (everythings "tall & thin") and does'nt delete every 4th line and insert those electric black letterboxes across the top/bottom of the screen. I was told I could use an anamorphic lens with this setup to vertically squeeze for higher res 16:9 with this 4:3 PJ.

I was just hoping that when I get the H79 I could do the same. Fill the whole 1280x720 panel with 2.35, then use the anamorphic lens to stretch it horizontally for HUGE scope. That would be nice :)

Dear 3D Guy,

Yes, H77/H79 has a letterbox mode that will stretch widescreen enhanced 2.35:1 DVD to fill the 1280x720 DMD, so that you can use an extra anamorphic lens to get back a 2.35:1 image using full 720p vertical resolution.

Optoma demoed this setup (using a Panamorph) last year at CEDIA, but no one seem to see it.

Unless they changed the firmware to take out that function, when you receive your H79, you can give it a shot, and let us know! :cool:

Originally posted by GetGray
Not sure what letterbox is supposed to do but it dosen't do the 2.35 stretch anyway... WHOHOO!! I gladly stand corrected. Just tested it with Starwars and they are right, it does the 2.35 stretch. It overscans the top of the pic just a little, but hey, I can live without a few pixels I suppose. Thanks for pointing it out and correcting me guys. Now to go salivate over those vertical squeze lens choices. ...Mmmmmmm anamorphic leeenss....

Received my H79 today and did a quick and dirty setup to check it out
before it finds a final mount. All I can say is WOW!!! This thing truly
projects a beautiful image. It really has surpassed my expectations.

I took the gamble on this unit as it was next to impossible to see a demo
in Canada. It seems CDN dealers will only special order these units so
demos are very sparse, if non at all. I based my purchase mainly on
the reports and feedback on AVS and took a leap of faith. Thank you
AVS members.

I do seem to have a set of dashes (------) at the top of the screen
when viewing DVD's.

Anyone know how to get rid of these? On HD channels, I see what looks
like a data stream at the top of the image as well. This doesn't seem
to be mentioned in the supplied manual. Probably a simple adjustment,
just don't know where to look. :)

After being wrong at least once today, I'm gunshy :) but... That stuff you are seeing is just garbage in the signal. You can digitally zoom to clip it off, or depending on your setup you may be able to optically zoom it onto your screen border and do away with it there (assuming you have a black velvet border or similar).

This is fantastic news!

Now, whether to squeeze or stretch . . . 2.35 at my full screen height would be tempting . . . SUPER SCOPE!

The Prismasonic H1000 lens worked really well with my H76 and H79 just FYI.

"I do seem to have a set of dashes (------) at the top of the screen
when viewing DVD's.

Anyone know how to get rid of these? On HD channels, I see what looks
like a data stream at the top of the image as well. " -

you shouldn't see those with DVDs, but with HDTV ( commercials mostly ) just hit 16:9 on the menu to overscan the lines away. When watching DVDs, I use native for 1:1 pixel mapping from my iscan HD scaler - the results are stunning with good DVDs!

Another great way to delete the upper static TV bars is to use the shift up feature in the display menu. You shouldn't get and video junk with DVD. I can use an Denon analog or other DVI type player with Native aspect (zero overscan) and not see static.

"Received my H79 today and did a quick and dirty setup to check it out
before it finds a final mount. All I can say is WOW!!! This thing truly
projects a beautiful image. It really has surpassed my expectations."

hehe, You could very well own THE best DLP projector available right now. Enjoy it

Originally posted by guitarman ...You could very well own THE best DLP projector available right now. Enjoy it [/B] heehee, Tom the consumate shameless marketeer :D:D

Craig, what size scope screen did you use?

3Dguy, I'm thinking about doing a constant height setup, but as the H79 is just right on brightness right now, and I'm gonna lose some as it ages, I don't want to get too big a screen. But on the other hand, I like my 110" 16x9 just fine (~54x96"). And I like the firehawk very much. If I get too big on the firehawk, I think the viewing angle will be too large on a 54" tall setup. But a 2.35 screen at my 96" wide will produce too small a 16x9 image for me (= ~95"diag, ~83" wide). I'm considering dropping bak a few inches on height and sort of splitting the difference to a 50" tall screen which would be 118" wide 2.35 and ~89" wide (102" diag) 16x9.

Of course the vertical squezze plan dosne't have the spiffy side masking options of a constant height setup, but it will work fine with the screen I have and increase resolution and brightness on 2.35 material. Hmmmm...

Cheers,
Scott

Originally posted by TzungILin
Dear 3D Guy,

Yes, H77/H79 has a letterbox mode that will stretch widescreen enhanced 2.35:1 DVD to fill the 1280x720 DMD, so that you can use an extra anamorphic lens to get back a 2.35:1 image using full 720p vertical resolution.

Optoma demoed this setup (using a Panamorph) last year at CEDIA, but no one seem to see it.

Unless they changed the firmware to take out that function, when you receive your H79, you can give it a shot, and let us know! :cool:

Yes this works, it's not changed. I'm looking at the effect right now. A 2.35 video will be stretched up using all the vertical lines when choosing the Letterbox aspect.

Re the 235 demo, they saw the video but didn't think about the 2.35bars not being there, most likely.

You're right no-one has talked about that in their CES reveiws.

Originally posted by guitarman
[B]Yes this works, it's not changed. I'm looking at the effect right now. A 2.35 video will be stretched up using all the vertical lines when choosing the Letterbox aspect. Hey Tom, can you check and see if yours crops the top couple lines or not? Mine did, no huge deal, just wondering if it's electronic of optical cropping. Left, right and bottom are all 100%, just my top edge was cropped a little. Thanks, Scott

I didn't count every vertical pixel, too lazy that's 720 numbers ;)

But looking at Avia pixel crop with the Toshiba HDMI player and Native aspect I can see all the 0 pixel lines, except it looks like the right side has half or one pixel more than the other three sides. Could be the player though. Hey I was just using the lens shift, I have the PJ ceiling mounted right side up on a shelf. I find the lens shift nice and easy to use. You turn it lightly and easily with just two fingers. The Sharp Z90 I had was stiff in comparison and I don't think I could move it this easily with the same type setup. I like the lens shift as it is.

Originally posted by guitarman
I didn't count every vertical pixel, too lazy that's 720 numbers ;) No need, just pop in a 2.35 anamorphic disc of your fav movie. FF to a spot where there is some detail on the upper part of the screen (i.e. not sky). Something small, or distingushable on the edge. Now, go from native to letterbox so you stretch the 2.35 impage to fill the screen. Go back and forth a couple times looking at some detail that's on the edge in native mode, see if the same detail is on the edge on the stretched image. Then you can see where the chop is (or isn't). No counting required.

thirdkind: Your next H79 in yet? Check yours if you have one.

Thanks, Scott

Ok, I got Borne Identity going now and yes the very top when you use Letterbox on this 2.35 movie there's a faction less information or you could say there's a slight overscan at the top.

I hope people don't think this is something wrong because basic users will get a 1.1 pixel match using native and a good player or HTPC. This overscan effects just a 2.35 panoramic screen setup. And there's just a fraction of the top pixel cropped or over scanned.

Originally posted by guitarman
[I find the lens shift nice and easy to use. You turn it lightly and easily with just two fingers. The Sharp Z90 I had was stiff in comparison and I don't think I could move it this easily with the same type setup. I like the lens shift as it is. [/B]

I would agree with that statement, although there is some "play"
(at least on my unit) with the dial mechanism. For example, when
you turn the dial, you may need to turn the dial a 1/4 or 1/2 a turn before
you feel tension from the lens shift mechanism. It does seem that once
it's tensioned the play goes away. Probably a safety mechanism so you
can't crank on it and damage the mechanism.

Not really a big deal since I only plan on setting the projector up once
and be done with it.

Thanks for the info on the "video junk" I'll look into the "shift up"
feature.

This one's definately a keeper!!! :)

Originally posted by guitarman
Ok, I got Borne Identity going now and yes the very top when you use Letterbox on this 2.35 movie there's a faction less information or you could say there's a slight overscan at the top.

I hope people don't think this is something wrong because basic users will get a 1.1 pixel match using native and a good player or HTPC. This overscan effects just a 2.35 panoramic screen setup. And there's just a fraction of the top pixel cropped or over scanned. OK, now that I've pushed Tom to say a pixel is missing, let me take a moment to agree with him that this is NOT something to worry about, it is not anything wrong enough to be considered a big flaw or a defect. It is not perfect, but it is also no big deal, it is close to on the money. I believe a regular TV whacks off about 20 times as much information due to overscan on all 4 sides. We are talking about 2 pixels of picture, off the top edge only, ONLY when stretching a image vertically which most WILL NOT DO, NOT a big deal. In terms of percentages, if it's 2 lines lost, then it's a 0.3% percent overscan. 99.7% complete.

And, this topic ONLY applies to one special case. It's only seen when intentionally stretching a 2.35 image to full screen so one can feed through a anamorphic lens, which very few folks are gonna do I'd say. Well, maybe more will now that they know it can do it :). Maybe we can all get together and do a bulk purchase of lens...

On the contrary, this feature, is a very good thing, a freebie. I feel like I found a free prize inside my H79 box, since I didn't think it did it (all don't). This feature will allow a H79 user to add a vertical squeze anamorphic lens and get 20-33% more image brightness WITHOUT having to buy a $1000-2000 external scaler or anything else. Or if one want's a constant heigt setup, a horizontal stretch lens (but then you need a scope screen).

That good Tom? ;) Thanks for checking that nitpicky detail for me...

Cheers,
Scott

It's funny because when you first said the missing top pixel I was about to get a needle out and start counting.

Originally posted by guitarman
It's funny because when you first said the missing top pixel I was about to get a needle out and start counting. HA! I'm glad you didn't cause if you had reported you had counted pixels from top to bott, I'd have felt compelled to buy dinner or ship wine or something. But of course if it came out to 719 I'd have wanted a recount :D:D

Wish I was at home, now I have an excuse to take off early... I recalled your answer to hdefjunkie re the garbage line at the top and a lightbulb (albeit a small one :)) went off in my head.... wonder what the (electroinc menu) image zoom and image shift controls do to that stretched (via letterbox mode) 2.35 image?? Hmmmm....

" Craig, what size scope screen did you use " -

Well, I've developed a " constant square foot " screen system ( almost - I'd need a 3rd screen ) - for cinemascope 2.35:1 movies I use a 106" x 45.25" DaLite Cinema Vision tensioned Cosmo. Electrol screen. It is working fabulously. I wouldn't want it any bigger really, and to give the appearance of it being bigger I have it mounted 6" closer than my other screen - a 92" x 69" HCCV tensioned Cosmo. Electrol which I only deploy part way for 1.78:1 ( or 1.85:1 ) movies and HDTV. The HCCV works well for sports and such when there is ambient light in the room. Fully deployed I use the HT1000 projector on it for massive 1.33:1 Imax videos and Singing In The Rain type videos. I would recommend a white screen for the bigger scope aspect screen - it's plenty bright on low power so far.

Great thread -- lots of useable info here.

Now, one i haven't seen yet:

Anyone using a Silverstar screen with the H79? With the great contrast ratio, this seems like a perfect match if one wanted more brightness than the ST130.

Anyone?

dD

I have been reviewing both the H77 & H79 and want a projector that I can also get a great picture from STD TV. Those of you who have had this experience what can you tell me about std TV picture quality? How do these two compare? I know movies and HDTV will be good but what about the STD comparisons??

TIA

I don't watch too much SDTV on mine, but I am amazed at how good The Simpsons looks - for what thats worth!

Originally posted by Mike K S
I have been reviewing both the H77 & H79 and want a projector that I can also get a great picture from STD TV. Those of you who have had this experience what can you tell me about std TV picture quality? How do these two compare? I know movies and HDTV will be good but what about the STD comparisons??

TIA I've tested 4 PJ's, 5 including the H77. Of those, the H7x's clearly have the best SD picture. It beats the Marantz, Sim2 300E, and the Infocus 7205 IMO.

Now here's the downside... My SD comes from a Comcast/Motorola STB. In the STB's default config, it passes signals natively (i.e. at 1080i and 480i). When the PJ gets the 480i signal, is when it's best at producing that nice SD pic becasue it's doing the upscale and deinterlace. The problem is that the H7x's stink at resyncing relative to the other PJ's. So I have my HD STB set to send everything upscaled so the H79 dosen't have to resync. It's annoying to me when channel surfing go from one HD channel to a SD channel and have to wait on the resync. With the SD upscaled by the STB, the picture is of course the same on all of them (since the conversion is done by the STB). If I decide to watch something very long or know I'm gonna be watching some SD shows and not doing much channel surfing, I'd switch the setting on the STB to get the best pic.

So, it's the best at doing SD, if you can live with slower sync speeds when changing SD/HD sources/resolutions. I have never compared it to an external scaler.

HTH, Scott

I have the motorola and 480i sd looks very good. If I surf I use the guide so I can read about each program. This way there's no sync dropouts.

I love the Simpsons too :)

Thanks to Tom, I plan to go with the CV 1.3 material when I get the H79. My screen wall has upper/lower adjustable black masks & black velvet curtains on the sides (w/pull string to open/close) all within a 10' wide, 7" deep marquee box across the top, mounted at the ceiling. It looks somewhat old fashioned, but has a cool "theatre" feel to it. Definitely the "focal point" in my apt livingroom lol!

I can adjust to any size/ratio I want so when I buy the CV material, I'll probably stick to 7' 9" wide for 16:9 and just under 10' wide for "squeezed" 2.35 giving up a little on the height. I've read that you shouldn't do any zooming in with the anamorphic lens bec of distortion (pincushioning, etc) but maybe just a little compromize won't be that noticeable.

That way I'll have the full DMD brightness/res & a little taller/wider 2.35. Best of both worlds.

Anyone know how well the CV material stretches for DIY screens? I read that the HCCV was thin and works well for this, but I'm afraid it might be too dim for me with the H79's 5xx lumens.

Tom,

Do you know how much brightness is lost after calibrating the H79 to D65?

Thanks,

Frank

Originally posted by GetGray
I've tested 4 PJ's, 5 including the H77. Of those, the H7x's clearly have the best SD picture. It beats the Marantz, Sim2 300E, and the Infocus 7205 IMO.

Now here's the downside... My SD comes from a Comcast/Motorola STB. In the STB's default config, it passes signals natively (i.e. at 1080i and 480i). When the PJ gets the 480i signal, is when it's best at producing that nice SD pic becasue it's doing the upscale and deinterlace. The problem is that the H7x's stink at resyncing relative to the other PJ's. So I have my HD STB set to send everything upscaled so the H79 dosen't have to resync. It's annoying to me when channel surfing go from one HD channel to a SD channel and have to wait on the resync. With the SD upscaled by the STB, the picture is of course the same on all of them (since the conversion is done by the STB). If I decide to watch something very long or know I'm gonna be watching some SD shows and not doing much channel surfing, I'd switch the setting on the STB to get the best pic.

So, it's the best at doing SD, if you can live with slower sync speeds when changing SD/HD sources/resolutions. I have never compared it to an external scaler.

HTH, Scott

The H79 is a channel surfers nightmare without enabling upscaling at the
STB. My cable provider uses SA gear (SA3250HD) so the problem is
easily worked around by setting the SA box to upscale everything to 720/1080.
The auto-scanning/sync on the H79 definately needs improvement.

The SD PQ is very good. Very comparible to my 60" Sony GWIII.

Originally posted by ftlee
Tom,

Do you know how much brightness is lost after calibrating the H79 to D65?

Thanks,

Frank

Looks very bright both ways. I guess stock was a little brighter because you could see the stock grayscale was set a little blue but not much, maybe under 500k. Plus each hit of the white peak can increase brightness substantially.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79factoryrgb.jpg

Here's the contrast ratio I got last time I re-tuned the H79. After hearing how great the one-eye is I re did the tune up, high power screen, one-eye 1.5 feet facing the center screen. The main thing I did different here was re-checking the brightness pattern making sure I kept the black dither at the absolute bottom.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h794900.jpg

Wow - watched The Fast and the Furious Friday night with the neighbors and Return of the Jedi Sat. night after a dinner party - the more I watch the H79 the more I love it! The clarity of fast moving action scenes is simply amazing ( unless you drink too much wine followed by too much port......)!!

I had the H79 down for a while and was using the H31 & HT1000. I put it back up last night for the American Idol show and House which is a family tradition lately. The first thing you notice is the searing power of the image. Much more beyond pure whites but not crushing whites, plus extremely deep blacks. This is contrast at it's best. I'll say it again "Could very well be the best DLP available right now". I'am at 250 bulb hours now.

Originally posted by Craig Peer
Wow - watched The Fast and the Furious Friday night with the neighbors and Return of the Jedi Sat. night after a dinner party - the more I watch the H79 the more I love it! The clarity of fast moving action scenes is simply amazing ( unless you drink too much wine followed by too much port......)!!

Then that fast motion could be yourself headed to the porcelain telephone.

guitarman & thirdkind (& other Comcast HD folks)...

Just came in the E-mail:


Don't forget to watch:
INHD Tune Up
on INHD, April 2 at 7:00AM

They didn't bother to mention it in their reminder but I'm pretty sure that's eastern time (I'm in Central). Check the INHD site for your local time..

I'm very interested to hear how that 15 minute "show" does. Would be way less expensive to get a Comcast recorder than a Accupel 3000.

Cheers,
Scott

Originally posted by guitarman
I'll say it again "Could very well be the best DLP available right now".
You can keep saying it, but with the Yamaha DPX-1200 out there with its color control system to get the primaries spot on for both SD and HD, and a 3 option iris system, it isn't like the competition is easy. Especially when you say, "This is contrast at it's best" and the DPX-1200 has higher calibrated on/off CR.

--Darin

I agree that the Yamaha is a worthy competitor in numbers for sure. And I'm not the ya'sayer Tom is for Optoma and the H79 may not be the literal best at picture (although it may be damn close all things considered) but...
- 1080p is looming
- the recent experience of taking a bath with an upgrade from HD2+ to HD2+DC3 I know firsthand how bad prices plument when the new tech hits the door
- I can buy 2 H79's for the price of 1 Yamaha
- or I can buy 1 H79 and 15 bulbs for the price of the Yamaha
- or I can buy 1 H79 and save the extra $6k for the 1080p upgrade.

Then maybe I'll get a Yamaha. No, wait, then the Yamaha will be double the 1080p Optoma again....Doh!

Just depends if the fine tuning the Yamaha has are worth double the price to someone. I wanted to try one, I just wasn't personally able to rationalize it. Adn if I were going there, I'd have to one on one it with the Marantz S4 which probably also has a good pic, albeit their warranty on DMD's stinks. Dunno about Yammy. I'd go a little more, but not double....

Cheers,
Scott

Originally posted by darinp2
You can keep saying it, but with the Yamaha DPX-1200 out there with its color control system to get the primaries spot on for both SD and HD, and a 3 option iris system, it isn't like the competition is easy. Especially when you say, "This is contrast at it's best" and the DPX-1200 has higher calibrated on/off CR.

Tom should really append his exclamation with "for the price."

In my opinion, the H79 bests the 12K and 300E--the closest competitors I've had the pleasure of viewing--in terms of overall image quality.

However, I wouldn't be so quick to declare it the best available not having seen the 12S4 or DPX-1200, particularly with the H79's oversaturated red primary. The color controls on the 12K resulted in an outstanding image, so if the 1200 provides similar controls, it's likely the 1200 would most certainly beat the H79 in color accuracy.

If the 1200's handling of motion (panning artifacts) is as good as the H79's, then it's almost certain the 1200 would be the superior projector.

Can't ignore the massive street price difference though.

Well, I'm going to stick my two bits in here and say a big "thanks" to all the info providers and relentless question "answerers" on the A vs. B projector debate.

I ordered my H79 and 110" ST130 from Jason this week and I feel quite confident that I got the best bang for my buck.

This being all done sight unseen was a bit of a stress, but with all the great info here I feel I've got a winner. I'll keep you posted as I get things installed.

dD

" Tom should really append his exclamation with for the price. " -

True. There really aren't too many people that can spend the kind of money a Yamaha DPX 1200 costs. I can't. However, with the picture my H79 produces I can truly say that I will be satisfied for quite some time with the projector part of the image. My " upgradeitis " has been cured for now. The only thing in need of improvement are any dvd's that are of poorer quality. I agree with those that say they will " cherry pick " Blu Ray or Hd DVD titles to replace the bad ones ( why on earth can't they make a decent dvd of Tombstone fer crying out loud? )!

Originally posted by GetGray
- I can buy 2 H79's for the price of 1 Yamaha
Originally posted by thirdkind
Tom should really append his exclamation with "for the price."

Originally posted by Craig Peer
There really aren't too many people that can spend the kind of money a Yamaha DPX 1200 costs.
I wouldn't have said anything if it had said price/performance, but if you guys really want to go that way then you have to also accept statements like:

I can buy 5 InFocus 4805s for the price of 1 H79 (with money left over).
There really aren't too many people that can spend the kind of money an H79 costs.

Price/performance will always be relative to a person's position, but if somebody wants to make a statement about something being "the best" then bringing price into the discussion afterward doesn't really bolster their position IMO. Especially when they are talking about a product above the average price with a lot of products below that could argue the price/performance lead.

None of this is to say that the H79 isn't a great product, just that things should be kept in perspective.

--Darin

I'll go way back to the HT1000 vs the Optoma H56 days, when Andrea did a shootout. I'll admit the Optoma intrigued me. After buying the budget H30 I was struck by the overall picture and colors. Then they started upping the ante with the H77 and finally the H79. Both of these had the picture quality I liked in the H30 but each step they got way better. At this point with the H79 with all is plus points and there are many. I wouldn't consider another projector. It might just not have the look/picture I'm getting use to in the Optoma line.

Pretty spectacular really.

Darin,

I don't think anybody (except for Tom maybe) is arguing that the H79 is the price/performance leader. I added the qualifier "for the price" because I do indeed believe the H79 is the best projector available in its price range.

Price is absolutely a valid way to categorize and compare projectors and their capabilities. Otherwise, everyone who comes to this forum would be told to buy a Qualia and be done with it.

I've never seen the 1200 and I wouldn't be surprised if it's better than the H79 given its extra configurability. But I wouldn't bet money on it because, again, I haven't seen it. I expected a lot from the 300E due to its higher price tag and was surprised to find that it doesn't even match the H79 in terms of overall image quality, let alone beat it. I thought since the H79 has almost no noticeable panning artifacts that the 300E and other HD2+ DC3 machines would be the same, especially since the H79 is dealing with 8 color wheel segments and the others are working with 7 (or 6 segments in the case of the 300E). I was quite shocked to see panning artifacts on the 300E that are similar to those I saw on the Sharp 10K, which is two generations behind.

Too many other variables aside from contrast ratio and color controls to make the call on the 1200 without a personal inspection. Its colors may be spot on, but if motion and panning look the same as they do on the 300E, I think I'd be willing to accept slightly imperfect colors to get everything else the H79 offers.

If the 1200 looks as good as the H79 with the added benefit of precise color controls and better build quality (my other gripe with the H79), then I wouldn't disagree that it's worth considerably more money.

If my business plans work out, I'll be looking at the 1200's 1080p successor next year along with any 1080p D-ILAs that happen to be around. No more slumming it with these $8k and under models ;)

Originally posted by thirdkind
Price is absolutely a valid way to categorize and compare projectors and their capabilities.
The rest of your write-up is good, but just wanted to say that nothing I said here disagreed with this. I also value Greg Rogers' opinion pretty highly, so when he gives the 1200 such high remarks I tend to believe the projector can back it up. That isn't to say that different people aren't sensitive to different things though and I believe the H79 does hold at least one advantage over the 1200 (my understanding is that the 1200 doesn't support 48Hz mode and the H79 does).

--Darin

Hey the Comcast INHD Tune up patterns work pretty cool. It's like a free Avia for HDTV.

Patterns for Contrast and Brightness, plus Color & Hue. You'll use your blue filter to match tones. For color match Blue and gray, for hue match Magenta and Cyan. Bop back and forth between your Brightness and Contrast patterns, same deal for Color saturation and hue.

End result is excellent. Picture took on a more dark like image for me with colors being strong and natural for face tones.

In case anybody missed the schedule, Comcast runs the HD Tune Up patterrns on Saturday Morning 4am abouts, check your adanced menu and use your PVR.

Any chance of getting this via a download Tom?

Gary.

Originally posted by GetGray Hi guys: I wasn't gonna bring it up but now the subject is broached... On the 79 I have, when using the focus adjustment, I have some "slop". If I adjust the focus to where I pass the ideal point of focus, then change directions to focus back the other direction, I get a significant jump in the projected image. With the PJ mounted at 17' or so (max for my 110") the amount of shift is about 5/8". It happens in both focus directions. It's clearly a mechanical issue with some play or slop in the mechanism. I'm working on a replacement but there won't be any point in that if everyone is seeing it. My H77 didn't do it, or if it did it was not this much or I'd have remembered.

Right now, this PJ is right side up, on a high shelf, approx 7" below it's max lens shift location.Update on this issue:

Now that I'm tickled with the new remote performance (via the AV-RS232 in the powerbuy) I decided I'm sticking with the H79. Compared to the other PJs, I they just didn't beat it for what I want. And no, I didn't compare it to the Yamaha at twice the price, but let's not go there again...

The Only mechanical issue I had was the focus issue described above. Once I decided to keep the PJ, I finally got around to putting it back on my ceiling mount. This meant going from sitting high right side up, to sitting high upside down. Of course the lens shift went almost full the other way now. Once adjusted, guess what... no more focus play. Zero, nada, zilch. Man, it's been my week for good PJ karma I guess. First I get the discretes I've been crying about since H77 via the AV-RS232, and now my only mechanical issue with the H79 - gone. Ahhhh.

So my PJ now agrees with Craig's: I don't believe mine does that. Mine is upside down ( ceiling mounted ). Not sure how close to max lens shift but not at maximum.So in case you see any focus slop, something to try is to turn it over...

Cheers,
Scott

Interesting find. My H79 is high up shelf mounted and I get the jump when focusing but I do get a sharp focus. Actually I'm use to the right direction for sharp focus, seems to cut sharper focus lines.

I don't recall how it worked ceiling mounted. I do remember when I had the H77 ceiling mounted and Thirdkind brought up the focus jump that the H77 didn't have a jump.

I asked the Engineer about this early on, he said it's because of the super long zoom level.

Yeah, my focus was OK even with the little slop when it was shifted the other way. So it wasn't that big of a deal really, it was predictable and reasonably small in any case, and as like yours, it still focused fine, too. Just a little flaw with a very easy workaround.

But now that it's upside down (and thus lens shift is 100% the other way), no slop in the focus at all. And it focuses properly, too.

I just insatalled my H79 last night and was wondering about one thing. The 79 is ceiling mounted with the lens higher than the top of the screen. What is the difference between (a) not using the lens shift, but tilt the PJ downward, then use keystone to achieve a rectangular image on the screen, and (b) use the lens shift to move the image right on the screen?

BTW, I am happy with the H79, out of the box, with my 132" diagonal screen.



Thanks,
Frank

ps. If you need to buy a H79 with excellent price and services send me a PM.

Keystoning has an impact on image quality and you lose some resolution as it has to do all the adjustments within the 1280 x 720 area which will result in scaling down the image.

If the lens shift on full isn't enough, sometimes you can tilt the pj down a little, and tilt the screen up from the bottom a little to compensate.

Gary.

Originally posted by guitarman
Interesting find. My H79 is high up shelf mounted and I get the jump when focusing but I do get a sharp focus. Actually I'm use to the right direction for sharp focus, seems to cut sharper focus lines.

I don't recall how it worked ceiling mounted. I do remember when I had the H77 ceiling mounted and Thirdkind brought up the focus jump that the H77 didn't have a jump.

I asked the Engineer about this early on, he said it's because of the super long zoom level.


Personally, I like PJs with manual focusing and zooming. It is more precise that way compared to the step-wise incremental machanical adjustments. Besides, manual adjustment has less moving parts/electronics and costs less. I just rather Optoma spent the money instead on a better remote.

Frank

BTW, thanks for your reply Gary.

I don't have much need for a power focus right now. but I plan to add a anamorphic lens soon. I plan to move the lens on and off, out of the way for 16:9, back in for 2.35. I expect that may cause focus issues. Having a power focus is better for me personally. I tried a couple units with manual focus (Marantz S3 and IF 7205). Having to get out some binoculars and hold then in one hand while up on a ladder turning a focus ring with the other, comical but a pain IMO... after that, I respectifully disagree with power focus not being a very good thing good. If it never changes, maybe then OK. As for granularity, I've not had any problems getting it focused perfectly with the step increments of the H79 anyway.

Zoom is a different thing. I use it often. Primarily to nip off the garbage lines from HD or SD broadcast material. Occasionally to zoom a little to produce a smaller image. I do watch some TV and talking head shows are kinda much if the heads are 3' tall :). So being able to zoom at the touch of a button is again a feature I find very useful.

>>I just rather Optoma spent the money instead on a better remote.

As for remotes, I agree some more work there woudl have been nice. But I'd recommend to try the AV-RS232 for the H79. I know it's some extra $$, but that put an end to my remote complaints. Works perfect, and has the important discretes. I actually have to be carefull when moving sliders to press lightly so I don't move too far due to the increased responsiveness. Pleasure to use now. Craig's getting one, he'll probably let us know what he thinks about his.

So that IR setup gives you more sensitivity on top of the discretes, sounds good.

I also like the power focus, it makes distinct short clips at every remote touch. I've never had the pixels so sharp.

Originally posted by guitarman So that IR setup gives you more sensitivity on top of the discretes, sounds good. Yeah, you know how sometimes the stock remote pauses or appears to get stuck (for just a coupls secs or so), like if you are in the advanced color menu and try to exit all the way out of the menus. Sometimes mine would hang on the last exit or so, but I learned if I just pressed the buttons waited a sec then the next button, etc. it did OK, but still anoyed me to have to go slow. With the AV-RS232 doodad, poof, it goes as fast as I can push. With the menu button, now I give it a just a light (I know pressure has nothing to do with it, it's mental :)) quick press. If I press to long, the menu comes on and goes back off in a blink:). I also like the power focus, it makes distinct short clips at every remote touch. I've never had the pixels so sharp. I can see crisp edges on every pixel. I guess it won't get any better than that until there is no pixel edge :)

That's right the stock remote works best with delayed hits. You're getting quick reads off the screen with the RS232?

Sometimes I think the stock remote gets blinded by the light.

Originally posted by guitarman
That's right the stock remote works best with delayed hits. You're getting quick reads off the screen with the RS232?

Sometimes I think the stock remote gets blinded by the light. Yep, the AV-RS232 is getting quick reads from across the room 30' from the screen, bouncing back 16' to the PJ! I even pointed it at a sidewall which it then went off the screen and back to the PJ. I have mine located with the PJ but I also tried it with it's 35' cable mounted at my equipment. No difference and since I have a plug at my PJ, I put it there for one less wire to traverse to the gear. One button on, one button off. Every time. Even back when I made the universal remote files for the H77 and made a macro to do the 2 "power toggle" presses for off, that didn't work 70% of the time. Not any more. One button, and everything I've got comes on, *every* time. And off, ditto.

Frankly I'm so pleased with it I'd rather see them enahnce their RS232 commands. They can leave the IR interface off for all I care, never going back...

Scott

Can I use my Pronto 6000 to do the same job as the AV-Rs232? With the Pronto, I can create buttoms and make them learn each sequency so I can go straight to, say, changing the aspect, etc. Or did I not understand the function of the AV-RS232 enough?
Frank

I believe that the rs-232 interface allows commands that in fact are not recognized by the IR section - such as discrete on / off.

Additionally a problem seems to be the actual response time of the IR path into the projector. Where exactly in the path the hang-up is - who knows but probably in the interpretation / execution side of the micro would be my bet.

Short answer would be I don't think so.

Originally posted by kaka
Can I use my Pronto 6000 to do the same job as the AV-Rs232? With the Pronto, I can create buttoms and make them learn each sequency so I can go straight to, say, changing the aspect, etc. Or did I not understand the function of the AV-RS232 enough?
Frank
Nope, because you see you can program the Pronto but there are no discrete IR functions like the AV-RS232 takes advantage of. For example, say your PJ was in "native" mode. You want to go to "window" mode. You can activate the aspects menu using the IR code for the "format" button. That menu is one where you choose up, down left, right then enter to choose. But the Pronto has no way of knowing what aspect you are in to start with, so it dosen't know if you need a left, then a down, or a right and a down, or a up, etc. The sequence for that menu will vary depending on where you start. So there's no way to program say "aspect window".

The AV-RS232 on the other hand takes advantage of the fact that there is a RS232 command for "aspect window" You still need your Pronto, but now you program it (or use the supplied ccf file) to choose AV-RS232's "aspect window" (4:3) button, and viola, the projector goes directly to the "window" aspect ratio. It didn't know where the aspect was when you started, it just sends the command to go to the selected aspect.

So, now, in the dark, with no delay, I push the button on my programmable remote for "window" (labeled 4:3) and poof, I'm there and get the 4:3 aspect, no menu to activate, no direction keys to push, no enter button. And no cycling through the different possibilities with a macro. Works exactly as described, perfectly so far every time.

See the difference?

Cheers,
Scott

Scott,
I thought I can program the Pronto to frist activate the menu, then go to the sub menu that control different aspects, then I would (I hope to be able) use many redundant up's to set the pointer to the first item, then come down to the right one. This of course won't work if the the menu items go in a looping manner, ie, it goes to the first one from the last one when the arrow key is pressed. I am going to take a look at the H79 remote tonight.
Frank

Originally posted by kaka
Scott,
I thought I can program the Pronto to frist activate the menu, then go to the sub menu that control different aspects, then I would (I hope to be able) use many redundant up's to set the pointer to the first item, then come down to the right one. This of course won't work if the the menu items go in a looping manner, ie, it goes to the first one from the last one when the arrow key is pressed. I am going to take a look at the H79 remote tonight.
Frank Nope, as you already guessed, it does loop, there is no "top". Been there. If you got the IR files from Optoma or Remote Central, I did the grunt work gathering all the hex code, creating the pronto and URC files, and gave the zip file to Optoma. Not bragging, just pointing out I beat this horse early on.

I had a macro that went "around the aspect loop" for me. That is, every time I pressed a button it went to the next aspect. Didn't like it but it was the only way to do it. If the aspect I wanted was tthe one "behind" I had to change 3 times to get there. I couls have made a bi-directional macro but then I'd have to memorize what was the shortest way, obviously that would stink, too.

Even *IF* you are happy with the "cycle through them" plan of aspect changes (which I was not), the changes are slow. The IR mode is slower to start with, and consider the "worst case" actual commands to loop around to an aspect:

Worst case takes 3 cycles:
Button press # 1 macro: format, right, enter
Button press # 2 macro: format, right, enter
Button press # 3 macro: format, right, enter
That's 9 IR commands to get to the aspect in the worst case scenario. To switch back and forth between 2 aspects (most common need for most), then you are guaranteed 4 total button presses (to activate the macro 4 times) which equate to 12 total IR commands per switch back (9 to switch, 3 to switch back for example). If you miss the correct by going too far (not uncommon due to the IR delay) well now your'in in for another 4 presses (executing 12 more slow IR commands).

Alternatively, a switch back and forth with the AV-IR232 takes.... you got it, 2 presses on your Pronto. One to select the desired, one to go back. And those 2 commands are faster than the original IR anyway. And there's no way to "miss" since you aren't cycling through anything. 2 fast vs. 12 slow... not to mention you don't have to watch the screen go all over the place while someone asks "whatcha doing?" while waiting on it :).

The new toy is da'bomb. One press, presto I'm there. In addition to the other stuff, I have 4 buttons on my SR-10.1 remote (same as the URC MX-700) labeled:

* LTRBOX
* 16:9
* 4:3
* 1:1

Push the one you want, poof it's there, instantly. Did I mention I'm loving it! It's the little things that make me happy in my old age I guess :):)

Cheers,
Scott

I just saw the h79 on display yesterday. I am purchasing a projector for my theater this week. Do you truly believe for an average joe like me it is worth the extra money for the H79 or should I just buy the H77 and call it a day? Josh

For me it was. A lot of folks saw panning issues with the H77 that the same folks don't see on the H79. But it didnt' bother a lot of folks. It was worh it to me just to have the better DMD chip. Hard to judge for someone else the value of the difference. Maybe 20% better for %33 more $$ if I was trying to be objective about it.

I see the H79 as a big step up from the H77. It's seems to have twice the contrast to me. Plus it's brightness or the power it can put on the screen is allot stronger. I notice it tolerates sunlight allot better.

When I mention contrast being high, I mean the power of white being blaring bright white, while the deepness of black is very black with no dither. HDTV shows pop right out of the screen.

I know it seems I'm laying it on thick here but this is the way I see it. I'm pretty excited about this projector and thrilled to have it.

Whether you want to go broke to have the next step up is another story. If I didn't want to spend over $5,000 I'd get the low priced H77 and be happy with it. It's still a colorfull projector with deep blacks and it's 1280X720.

Josh,
If you are considering a H77 then I think it is worth the extra $$ for a H79. I did some price research and was in the same boat in the beginning thinking of getting the H77 but I noticed the difference between a H77 and a H79 is about $2k (I got a very good price from a dealer for the H79). To me, the H79 will be the last PJ until the 1080 becomes available at a reasonable price. The H79 is very watchable and is free of some of the problems poeple found in the H77. So I would go for the H79 myself.
Frank

I've jusy seen the new H78 and there are no panning artefacts anymore - I tried the Spider-Man sequence and a test sequence from another forum member which showed it up very badly, and it's been eliminated. Along with some other PAL specific improvements, TI DMD sequence codes for faster pixel response and a lamp modulation improvemnet with new components, the H78 is a step up from the H77, hence the new model number.

I didn't get a chance to measure the H78 for contrast or brightness, but when I get my modified H77 back I can do a comparison.

Gary.

Thanks Frank. I do think I'm going with the h79, where did you find the best price?

Josh,
Check you private mail box. I just sent you some info.
Frank

Originally posted by jdcates
I just saw the h79 on display yesterday. I am purchasing a projector for my theater this week. Do you truly believe for an average joe like me it is worth the extra money for the H79 or should I just buy the H77 and call it a day? Josh

This question could not have been more perfectly timed for me, as I was going to ask the question myself.

We are moving, and my current projector (Dwin TV3) is staying with the house (in the dedicated home theater). As such, I will be looking for a new pj.

From what I have been reading, it appears that the Optoma h77 and h79 are excellent pj's, especially for the price.

Based on the answers to jdcates question above, it appears that most here believe that the h79 is worth the extra $2000 or so over the h77. If someone could send me a pm regarding a good price on the h77 I would appreciate it.

One thing I would miss with the Dwin is the two box solution whereby a single cable goes from the pj to the box in the equipment rack for easy access to all components and their connections.

How does everyone deal with this? Do you use a switcher etc?

Rob, you have a PM.

Just thought I'd drop a note that my replacement H79 is here and I'll be attempting a calibration tonight or tomorrow. It'll be with my RP62 and not my HTPC as I'd hoped (I pulled parts from my current HTPC to upgrade my work machine and all the parts for my new monster HTPC haven't arrived yet). At least I'll be able to determine if the bias/gain values will stick in the user menu.

Originally posted by Rob Tomlin
One thing I would miss with the Dwin is the two box solution whereby a single cable goes from the pj to the box in the equipment rack for easy access to all components and their connections.

How does everyone deal with this? Do you use a switcher etc?

I personally only have two devices hooked up to my H79--an HD cable box and my HTPC--so I just hook them up directly. It also helps that my projector is mounted on top of my AV rack at the back of the room. No problems with cable lengths with that arrangement.

What are your sources? You still have the 59AVi? I remember that from the SP1000/59AVi/3910 shootout in the DVD forum. What else do you need to hook up?

Originally posted by thirdkind
Just thought I'd drop a note that my replacement H79 is here and I'll be attempting a calibration tonight or tomorrow. It'll be with my RP62 and not my HTPC as I'd hoped (I pulled parts from my current HTPC to upgrade my work machine and all the parts for my new monster HTPC haven't arrived yet). At least I'll be able to determine if the bias/gain values will stick in the user menu.



I personally only have two devices hooked up to my H79--an HD cable box and my HTPC--so I just hook them up directly. It also helps that my projector is mounted on top of my AV rack at the back of the room. No problems with cable lengths with that arrangement.

What are your sources? You still have the 59AVi? I remember that from the SP1000/59AVi/3910 shootout in the DVD forum. What else do you need to hook up?

Jay-

What was the issue with your first H79 that required a "replacement"?

Yes, I still have the 59avi (which I love), as well as a Voom stb (soon to be replaced with something else since Voom is officially dead), my JVC 30000, my Xbox, and finally my Halo processor for the onscreen menu.

That's a total of 5 connections....with a possible 6th in the future since I will probably keep my 59avi for standard def dvd's when the first generation of HD DVD players come out.

I would mount the pj on the ceiling.

All of this is a piece of cake with the Dwin.

My first H79 exhibited some odd behavior. It wouldn't hold values in the bias/gain controls and touching these controls would sometimes cause wild color shifts, requiring a resync (either using the Re-Sync button or switching to another source and back). Some H77 owners reported similar problems, but I don't recall any other H79 owners mentioning anything.

I just spent an hour with the trusty RP62, Avia PRO, and OpticONE, and the calibration went flawlessly. Only thing I touched in the service menu was the degamma table (switched it to degamma04). Adjusted bias/gain with the user controls. Got a really flat greyscale and nice gamma. I can at least give the component input a clean bill of health. Once I have my new HTPC together this coming week, I'll calibrate the DVI input. Hopefully that will go just as smoothly.

While the RP62 can't match my old HTPC, it's still a very pleasing image.

Originally posted by thirdkind
Only thing I touched in the service menu was the degamma table (switched it to degamma04).
Is that going to hold, or are you going to have to select that every time you start up? I thought somebody said that setting would reset every time you turn the projector off.

--Darin

Rob,

To address your connectivity issues, I'm going to assume that the 59AVi is HDMI, HD cable/sat box is HDMI or DVI, 30K is component, Xbox is component, and the Halo processor is just using composite or S-video for the OSD.

The only way you could achieve the same ease of use with the H79 as you had with the Dwin would be to buy an external scaler, which is basically what the Dwin's input box is. The Dwin's input box receives all signals, converts them to 1280x720, and sends that signal to the projector via a proprietary DVI connection.

You'll have to buy a scaler such as the iScan HD+ or Lumagen VisionHDP if you want similar functionality to your Dwin. Hook everything up to the scaler, then run a single DVI cable from the scaler to the projector and feed it 1280x720. Leave the projector set to the DVI input and you're done.

Any other solution will have you flipping inputs and adjusting aspect ratios within the projector.

Originally posted by darinp2
Is that going to hold, or are you going to have to select that every time you start up? I thought somebody said that setting would reset every time you turn the projector off.

--Darin

I won't know for sure until I fire it up again, but even my previous screwy H79 held the degamma table setting between power cycles, unless it was merely highlighting the selection and not actually maintaining the gamma itself.

Switching between the two settings results in a fairly obvious difference, so eyeballing a greyscale step pattern should tell me whether it stuck or not.

Originally posted by thirdkind
Rob,

To address your connectivity issues, I'm going to assume that the 59AVi is HDMI, HD cable/sat box is HDMI or DVI, 30K is component, Xbox is component, and the Halo processor is just using composite or S-video for the OSD.

The only way you could achieve the same ease of use with the H79 as you had with the Dwin would be to buy an external scaler, which is basically what the Dwin's input box is. The Dwin's input box receives all signals, converts them to 1280x720, and sends that signal to the projector via a proprietary DVI connection.

You'll have to buy a scaler such as the iScan HD+ or Lumagen VisionHDP if you want similar functionality to your Dwin. Hook everything up to the scaler, then run a single DVI cable from the scaler to the projector and feed it 1280x720. Leave the projector set to the DVI input and you're done.

Any other solution will have you flipping inputs and adjusting aspect ratios within the projector.

Yep, you got all my connections correct.

Your idea regarding the external scaler definitely makes the most sense. The downside is obviously the extra cost, which would erase most of the savings that the well priced Optoma units have. The plus side is that you could also have a top notch scaler at nearly the same price (or less) as some of the competitors.

Thanks Jay.

Thirdkind, what about the CIE charts using the Optic one, did they ever figure the problem out?

Cliff's lab is testing the H79 this coming week.

I don't think we should assume there's a problem with OpticONE until testing is complete. Scott tested several projectors with the latest version of the probe, including the 12S3 and 7205, and the H79 was the only one that had oversaturated reds.

Still a weird problem with me getting good readings with two probes. Things should pan out when more reviewers get their hands on the H79.

Two probes using the same software.

All the probe does is capture the light. It's up to the software to interpret the readings and map them out on a chart.

What we've seen so far is Colorfacts users reporting spot-on reds and OpticONE users all consistently reporting oversaturated reds.

Cliff's lab uses a PR-650, which is something like a $20K or $30K colorimeter. I tend to trust his measurements.

Yes, and my CIE primary measurments were spot on with published results for the Marantz S3 and Infocus 7205. Neither of those has any primary measurment adjustments. My point is that none of the 3 PJ's in the conversation have primary adjustments, I don't believe anyting the adjusting operator(s) could do could get the primaries off much. And my 79's reds were measured off the chart (out of the triangle) for the H79. I'd like for it to be wrong (sort of), but I'm with thirdkind, I bet it's not. If it is wrong, I'm sure Cliff and company will fix it, but if the PJ is wrong, well, I expect it'll just be wrong ;). We ought to have a nice datapoint when the probe manufacturers get a look at it. They are the same mfgrs that make the CF Tris. probe so they shouldn't be tainted. I expect they'll be measuring with some high dollar equipment as well, hope so.

But in any case, I'm OK with it. Happily (now that the remote control issues are behind me) trudging along with my high value unit until the big dog arrives (1080) :)

Cheers,
Scott

But guys don't you think it's a little ridiculous to say colorfacts has been off all these years.

CF has been in shootouts with other companies for years and always faired great.

Lets hope it an easy software fix.

I've only seen one colorfacts user give any data on it. Well, 2. One of those has the original spyder probe which as I understood it he felt it was likely time to change since it may have drifted. I dont' know about the calibration status of the other's. If there were other's I missed them.

I too would be curious to see some more readings from CF owners with fresh calibrations. And you are right, if they are different, one of them is wrong and I hope it is a easy fix in either case. Both mine and thirdkinds are freshly calirated, brand new out of the box meters. They require recalibration. And Steve (forget username) does it for a living so I presume his is calibrated as well, his was off, too. That makes 3. So at least it's consistent. Consistently wrong?... maybe.

On a more positive note, I think the other 2 primaries as well as the 3 secondaries measured very nicely/close with my O1, but were off with the CF charts I saw. Choose your poison :D

Cheers,
Scott

Tom,

I mentioned earlier in the idea of colorfacts being off w/ regard to primaries earlier in this thread. Greg Rogers made mention of the possibility in one of his reviews(Note: he didn't specifically cite Colorfacts) that primaries are difficult to measure accurately. Please also note the discussion in this thread of evidence of potential problems with "cheaper" equipment:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=525804&perpage=20&pagenumber=3


See post #58

I posted the debate over at the Milori site.

"Can colorfacts give and accurate primary reading? :)

Originally posted by csedaniel
Tom,

I mentioned earlier in the idea of colorfacts being off w/ regard to primaries earlier in this thread. Greg Rogers made mention of the possibility in one of his reviews(Note: he didn't specifically cite Colorfacts) that primaries are difficult to measure accurately. Please also note the discussion in this thread of evidence of potential problems with "cheaper" equipment:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=525804&perpage=20&pagenumber=3


See post #58

I read that link. I guess what he's saying is they're all off.

Mark had a reply relating to a shootout of colormeters re widescreen review that was interesting also but about 30IRE readings.
http://www.milori.com/articles/widescreen_review.asp

Originally posted by guitarman
But guys don't you think it's a little ridiculous to say colorfacts has been off all these years.

I think drawing any conclusions at all until the testing is complete is ridiculous.

I feel it's necessary to challenge any posts (such as ones that reference "problems" with the OpticONE CIE chart) that would suggest either product has a flaw without all the facts in front of us.

Both are fine products, and I'm not hoping for a "winner". I just want the mystery solved.

Tom, I'd appreciate it if you'd check with Optoma regarding the H79's inability to retain different degamma table selections in the service menu. I just turned my H79 on, and when I checked the service menu it had reverted back to the default (00). Since 04 provides the best gamma curve, I'd rather stick with that. The default gamma is lousy.

Seems a bit asinine to include this option in the menu and then not retain the set value after powering down. Also unusual that they'd choose a gamma that's obviously off when they have a perfectly good one available.

Hey guys,

I need to see an H79 setup somewhere within a 2 hour drive of Lancaster County, PA. I am seriously considering going back to the Optoma line for my demo room now that the panning issue seems to have been resolved w/ the H79 and also the inclusion of the DC3 chip. I just LOVE how quiet the Optoma's are.

Can someone that has an H79 setup near me reply here or send me a PM or email to harperhometheater@comcast.net?

Thanks for any help guys:)!!!

Has anyone had any experience with or know details about Optoma's trade up program?

Could anyone tell me how could I, if possible, to turn off the signal searching display on the screen every time I fried up the H79. Before I turned on my DVD I usually turned on the H79 then it went thru. the whole thing of search signal and displaying the search results on the screen. That is not nice. The last PJ I had it remembered the last source I used (ie. input A) and only displayed a small "Input A - No signal" until I turned on the DVD player which was a more professional way of handling a start up situation.
Thanks,
Frank