Setup, 106" diagonal Dalite Mat White screen, Toshiba SD5709 HDMI/to DVI DVD player tuned with colorfacts. Comcast Cable HDTV tuned by eye.

Received my new Optoma H79 just in time for the Superbowl, perfect timing. :)

First off the first look at the H79 tells you it's super bright, black is still very black so contrast looks excellent. Plenty of Pop with the H79. My wife usually doesn't care but this time she says "this is the best picture image I've ever seen in my life". "Cup your hands and blot out the outer screen area and it's like you're there". This was with HDTV, playing the big game on Sunday.

I tuned the DVI progressive signal with colorfacts but didn't move much in the RGB area's. Maybe up 1 on the blue brightness and up 2 on the contrast red, that was it. So OTB for DVI the colortemp was very close.

I took a guick look at a couple of dither scenes and the H79 played them best I've seen with no ripples or contour dither. (Dwarfs getting ring & Gandalfs first staf light as the fellowship moves in the cave). The speed of the new chip makes for a better picture, also there's more upgrades to the H79 than just the chip. They worked on the Optical path and hand picked other components, each item helps in the final results/contrast etc.

Now for the good part, how it looks. :)
Enjoy

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79troy1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79troy2.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79troy3.jpg

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79glad1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79glad2.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79glad3.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79glad4.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79glad5.jpg

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79superhd1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79superhd2.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79superhd3.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79superhd4.jpg

Some cartoon color -
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79austin1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79austin2.jpg


Proof :)
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79logo.jpg

New shots -
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth2.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth3.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth4.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth5.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth6.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth7.jpg

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79dtheater1.jpg

It's ify using numbers per each machine and device but I'll give you a couple. A problem though is I calibrate in the service menu, but maybe not a problem since using my service numbers will better give you a shot at a match.

Both signals tuned with colorfact to D65k, tuned up to the limited color.

DVI progressive I use a Bravo D2 at 720p.

First Service area

ADC
R gain 188
G gain 191
B gain 187

R offset 43
G offset 54
B offset 46

Picture
Gain R 155
Gain G 139
Gain B 136

Bias R 109
Bias G 113
Bias B 113

Second User area
Cinema
Contrast 9
Brightness -1
Sharp 3
gamma 1

Image mode
White peak zero
CT 2
Image TV

Advanced Adjusments
R contrast 9
G contrast 6
B contrast 2

R brightness -10
G brightness 0
B brightness 0


Now Analog progressive from a Denon 1600
First Service area

ADC is identical to the numbers above for DVI.

Picture
gain R 127
gain G 124
gain B 128

bias R 121
bias G 120
bias B 116

User settings
Cinema
contrast -18
brightness 2
color 10
sharpness 3
gamma 3

image
white peak zero
CT 2
Image mode Film

Advanced all at zero


That's it, pls don't examine other areas of the service menu you'll be ok with just looking at ADC and Picture. There's a pandora's box in there and examining certain area's can cause you a problem. Write down all your original service Picture & ADC numbers. Remember just stay with ADC & Picture.

To get in the service menu
Looking from the back of the PJ to the front, the four buttons in a row, hit the left two buttons and the right buton at the same time. You can use your remote to move in the service area, menu and enter buttons will take you in and out of service functions, to exit there's an exit Icon at the bottom.
Pheww! it's tuff doing this numbers thing. If you give it a try lmk how it went?

__________________
Tom/guitarman

WooHoo! It's alive! Anxiously awaited this post Tom. Thanks for the great shots. Other than the obvious DarkChip3 enahncement, have you noticed any other changes yet? Does it:

a) Have the same remote (I'm watchin out for those desirable discretes)
b) Have the same or similar service menu?
c) Have that same super quiet chassis?
d) same optics (throw range, shift range)?
e) DVI input?
f) any new digital inputs?

And have you noticed any change in the syncing setup or the syncing speed when changing sources?

Picts look great, I'm super envious! Those HD shots are sweeet. I look forward to seeing more about it. Can't wait until it's available!! Cheers, Scott

Scott,
Remotes the same, syncing is the same. I find it best to have sync lock on and than hit the discreet button for the planned signal rather than wait for the PJ to figure it out. Didn't time it but will, seems to take about 5secs.

Mostly evertythings the same menu/chassis, optics, inputs. Except in the service are there's a CWI 50hz and a CWI60hz. I assume they're geared up for PAL.

I think the big change is the speed of the mirrors helping out those hard to render dither scenes. Very noticable difference there.

Awesome review. I didn't know it was released yet. Or is it? Did you get an advance unit or are they available for purchase?

Very cool. Thanks again, Drooling here....

Did you notice any difference in fast pans from the H77 to the H79?

Brad

Originally posted by SpecialK-MD
Awesome review. I didn't know it was released yet. Or is it? Did you get an advance unit or are they available for purchase?

Main batch is set for two weeks from now or less. The first batch was for installers though I'm not an installer just an enthusiast. I like the white finish on this one especially the bold Dark Chip 3 written on the top. ;)

Originally posted by bdavidson
Did you notice any difference in fast pans from the H77 to the H79?

Brad

I don't know what to tell you really. Pans looked ok for me with the H77, it was the wavy dither contouring lines on those odd scenes that I did notice. Like when I played your Dwarf ring scene it just looked smooth and blurry like on a small tube TV. And the Gandalf's light Cavern scene all the moving Fellowship players looked smoother without the waves.

Ok if you think about it being these other scenes are fixed up it probably helps the overall panning also.

Originally posted by guitarman
I like the white finish on this one My H77 was white, too. Was your's the Beige case? I'm assuming your H79 is the same white as my H77, think?

My 77 is Silver. The first handful were Silver before they decided white would be best.

I think the H79 looks noticeably better in the screens shots from the H77. The H77 is nice but you can surely see the difference. Like in the HDTV shots.

H77
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77hd1.jpg

H79
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79superhd1.jpg

I am assuming that the fact I can't open your photos is a sign from God that I should not spend any more money on Home Theater - at least for the next 90 days! Other than that - great review!

Yeah me too. I was wondering when my server company would blow a gasket. Four or five review threads with pictures just did the trick. I guess I'll be getting a call.

Thanks for the first look of the H79 Tom. I did see it at CES and really liked it. I wish I could compare it to the H77, do you think it is worth the extra money over the H77. I don't know if I should take a good deal on a H77 or wait for the H79.
I'd like to use it with a 126 to 133 inch screen in a light controlled room, so the extra brightness of the 79 might help.

thanks
Phil

Is it worth it that has to be up the buyers. Yes there's a nice difference, you have to figure what's it worth to you. Kind of a big screen, better get a high output model because when the bulbs get half old there's quiet a drop in brightness.

Have to add, there's more to the H79 than just the new chip. They worked on the optical path and hand picked some other components. This all works together to produce the increased quality of the image.

OK - now those screen shots are working!!

Its too bad no one that I know of locally carrys the Optoma brand.

Originally posted by TheFerret
Its too bad no one that I know of locally carrys the Optoma brand. Margins are too low, no controlled internet sales. Can't pay salespeople bills. Need Marantz, Infocus, etc. to do that. I expect. But that's a good thing if you like lower prices, bad thing if you'd like to have a healthy local guy to show them. If I manage to get one, you are welcome to come see it. Depends on which GA swamp you're in as to distance I suppose. Still yet to see what the street price for these will be. Anxiously awaiting. Maybe know something soon. Wish I was a patient as Craig. After my next PJ purchase, I'm gonna get a differnt hobby and see if that helps :D, maybe collecting wine, or flying airplanes. That ought to be less expensive. Yeah that's it....

Tom - nice snag getting one so early. Waiting to see more Colorfacts result details (got some D65 grayscale pics with dE numbers, on/off CR?). Can you comment on the fan noise level and any changes in RBE (worse, same, better)?

Cheers,
dagger

To emphasize dagger's comment, is there a reason that, having Colorfacts, you chose not to post any objective data?

-lumen output
-on/off CR
- grayscale tracking
- color decoder accuracy

TomHuffman

Do you mean color primary/secondary accuracy rather than video decoding accuracy? I knew SpyderTV consumer version has the colorbars measurements - are they adding them to ColorFacts?

Originally posted by krasmuzik
TomHuffman

Do you mean color primary/secondary accuracy rather than video decoding accuracy? I knew SpyderTV consumer version has the colorbars measurements - are they adding them to ColorFacts?

My main question is darkchip3 should have more light output by alot, what happend to that :). Did they tune it back to the same 900 ansi or is the ansi number more 'real' this time or did they trade it for more bulblife by running it a lower voltage ?

All other dc3's seem to result in more lightputput sofar.

Daniel.

Scott (scotthorton), I do not see Optoma as being any different than Benq, yet even with the accepted zero dealers in the city of five million people of Atlanta I cannot find a single soul that even owns a unit. So, without a dealer or an owner it makes a case only to those willing to entertain blind purchases. And unless the selling agent has a 30-day, 20-hour, 100% money-back return policy ... I fear the lanscape in Atlanta isn't going to change at all. BTW, what is the list on this unit?

Originally posted by TheFerret
Scott (scotthorton), I do not see Optoma as being any different than Benq, yet even with the accepted zero dealers in the city of five million people of Atlanta I cannot find a single soul that even owns a unit. So, without a dealer or an owner it makes a case only to those willing to entertain blind purchases. And unless the selling agent has a 30-day, 20-hour, 100% money-back return policy ... I fear the lanscape in Atlanta isn't going to change at all. BTW, what is the list on this unit? Yes, I know what you mean. I had to get my H77 blind, based only on other's subjective opinions and sometimes conflicting reviews. I was real nervous about it, but in th eend was mostly happy with it. As for MSRP, hell, I can't tell. I think the best answer I remember was that it would be $1K more than the MSRP on the H77. But that MSRP is moving so fast, I have no idea what the MSRP on the H79 will be. I think at one point the MSRP for the H77 was $10.9k but the street prices were WAY under that when it was new. So maybe the H79 is $11.9K MSRP. Who knows what it will really sell for. Maybe I'll get lucky and the H79 MSRP will be $1k over the current H77 MSRP. Not holding my breath. But in any event, hope to find out soon.

Pretty sure the msrp is $10,000. My guess on discounted prices will be around $7,000 give of take a couple of hundred. If I guess right what do I win? :)

Oh I didn't post colorfacts items because I'm new to the program and mainly just go right to tunining. Infact I know I can get the picture/contrast better because I did run and save a first grayscale and my gamma was at about 2.90, way too high. Can't do CR readings with a color meter so I bought a light meter which I should get Thursday. Plenty of time for that stuff. :)

Here you go I just did a re-tune with a higher start out gamma of 3 instead of the lowest gamma 1. Wing told me this would get my after grayscale gamma down, which it did but not enough yet. Here's the charts.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79cie.jpg

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79luminance.jpg

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79rgbhistogram.jpg

I tell you one thing that gamma drop from 2.90 to 2.45 really helped the contrast for DVD. I watching The Fifth Element to check and contast/colors look excellent. Allot better than before. I used the Tri-chromat this time and it still bugs be aiming it at the projector. I'll take a couple of FE shots to show you what's happend.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by guitarman
[B]Pretty sure the msrp is $10,000. My guess on discounted prices will be around $7,000 give of take a couple of hundred. If I guess right what do I win? :)

Tom: Find it hard to believe that people would pay 3k more for the 79
with the 77's now going for 4K

Jmo 3k isn't much at this stage of the game for a better picture. The 3k to upgrade will probably be similar to the other Dark Chip 3 models coming out except the Seleco and Marantz.

Here's the Fifth Element shots after tuning to get the gamma down.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth1.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth2.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth3.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth4.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth5.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth6.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth7.jpg

The H79 looks great OTB but the pictures show the worth of having the colorfacts program. Looks pretty nice

Still needs more practice Tom!

The gamma curve is S-shaped rather than a smooth curve - your mid-reds are pumped up but the bright reds are drained.

What I do to survey the box is plot the different gammas to see which one fits the curve the smoothest. 2.5 is the reference but some people like 2.2. Start with that one then find the color temperature that is closest to D65 at 60 or 80 IRE by simply flipping thru your choices - no need to do greyscale at this step unless you think they are not flat. If you do the RGB adjustment at 100IRE then you can see if you are clipping (either with DisplayMates (Not ColorFacts) color steps - or by watching the RGB histogram to see if it fails to change)

I recall you pumped up the red - and I bet you did it at 80IRE because it matches there - but then when it moves to 100IRE it needs more red but you used it all up at 80. I know some people will ruin the temp at 100IRE to maximize contrast - but I hate that method as it is very noticeable in cloud highlites.

Also is your CIE chart dead perfect? Or did you just not plot the reference HD points?

Tom,

Do you know if the H79 will take 1280x720@48Hz?

Thanks,
Darin

Hi Kras, CIE yes I saw that. That is the result after the grayscale check. It was a pressed for time run, I just flipped back and forth between 80ire and 40ire never looked inbetween. I was in a hurry just to see my gamma come down from 2.90 which it did. Thanks for the input I could use all the help. :)

Darin I asked about the 48Hz with the H77, the Engineer said not likely. The H79 is faster and does have two colorwheel index adjustments in the service menu, 50Hz & 60Hz so maybe. I'll ask Wing next time.

While I really have enjoyed reading this thread and the huge one about the H77, I find it hard to believe that Tom would say that the extra $3K is justified over the H77. Before Tom saw the H79, it seemed as if the H77 was the bees knees and he could not be happpier. Now, at ONLY almost twice the price Tom is recommending the H79? I say "almost twice the price" because I am figuring in the cost of the extra bulb that PP is giving with it's purchase. Don't take what I am saying the wrong way....the whole H77 thread and Tom is what made me purchase the H77 and I am really happy with it. I just don't see any way that anyone would pay an estimated $3K extra for the H79 versus the H77. That extra $3k could easily be spent on other things. As far as current owners wanting to upgrade from a H77 to a H79 that is insane! With what price you would get for your H77, I don't see how anyone could justify that! This does not take into account really smart and lucky people that were able to sell their H77 before the huge price slashing began. (You know who you are!)
Best,
Chris

Chris - some people are always willing to pay premium to be " first on the block ". I can't figure out why anyone would pay $ 60,000 for a car, but they do. That said, if you're like me - you might buy an H79 when they are on close out a year from now, eh? And as far as paying for a Qualia - some will see the picture being worth the difference in price of a new Tayota Tacoma Xtra cab pickup. Others like me ( who need the pick up instead ) won't. To sum up, some see a 5% picture quality increase worth 50% - 100% more. How else to justify the new Marantz, Sharp 12000 or other high priced 1 chippers?

PS - the H77's are selling for less than I bought my H76 - so don't feel alone. So what - I like my setup and projector and plan on using it for several years.

Chris,

I completely understand what you're saying, however it's a pretty common "diminishing returns" quandry that I'll bet most audio/ht enthusiasts encounter on a semi-regular basis.

Though I squirm over making that decision every time, I'm one of those guys that for sometimes a 20-30% improvement it can be worth making an 80-100% monetary jump in the upgrade. That decision can seem like complete madness to someone else, but I find it understandible if you really think the difference makes enough of an impact on your enjoyment factor. And, of course I'll salivate on the next best thing that comes down the pike in 6 months as well. It never ends.

Having seen the H79 at CES & recently at Optoma, I can see why someone would be excited about this projector. Boy is that home equity line beckoning for a projector upgrade! :D

It will probably take a few months for Optoma & retailers to flush out all the competition on the DC3 pricing once all the other manufacturures get their machines out there (InFocus, BenQ, etc).

Originally posted by CCONKLIN1
I find it hard to believe that Tom would say that the extra $3K is justified over the H77. Before Tom saw the H79, it seemed as if the H77 was the bees knees and he could not be happpier. Now, at ONLY almost twice the price Tom is recommending the H79?

And before these at some time it was the HT1000. I'm not sure of your point?

Tom obviously has a great passion and most likely greater disposable income than many of us (me at least :) ). Kudos to him. Not only for being able to afford constantly upgrading PJ's but for un-selfishly sharing/expressing his hands on experience but also (and very important), sharing his settings for optimizing the particular PJ that he favors at the moment.

Just because he moves onto something different doesn't mean your PJ has just gone into POS status. Hell, I still have the HT1000.


Bill

Originally posted by darinp2
Tom,

Do you know if the H79 will take 1280x720@48Hz?

Thanks,
Darin

Darin, They told me what you're trying to do in getting the best 2.3 pulldown with 48Hz but he says now the Ti chip will just convert it back to 60hz. In the next year or two there will be a faster 1chip that will do 72Hz for that purpose and do it better. But there will still be 60Hz material around at the same time, so they're working out the ways to make both work. Soon in a year or two. There are 3chippers now but the future looks good still for the 1chip.

Sheesh I don't know if I'm supposed to even be saying this, what the hay. :)

Originally posted by Mr. Biggles
And before these at some time it was the HT1000. I'm not sure of your point?

Tom obviously has a great passion and most likely greater disposable income than many of us (me at least :) ). Kudos to him. Not only for being able to afford constantly upgrading PJ's but for un-selfishly sharing/expressing his hands on experience but also (and very important), sharing his settings for optimizing the particular PJ that he favors at the moment.

Just because he moves onto something different doesn't mean your PJ has just gone into POS status. Hell, I still have the HT1000.


Bill

I'm not loaded like many here but I do like a bargin when I can get it. The H77 now sure is one. HT1000, hey I just bought one from and AVSer today and have it right here in front of me. It feels good :) certainly not a POS. :)

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/ht10002.jpg

Originally posted by guitarman
Darin, They told me what you're trying to do in getting the best 2.3 pulldown with 48Hz but he says now the Ti chip will just convert it back to 60hz. In the next year or two there will be a faster 1chip that will do 72Hz for that purpose and do it better. But there will still be 60Hz material around at the same time, so they're working out the ways to make both work. Soon in a year or two. There are 3chippers now but the future looks good still for the 1chip.
Thanks. I'm not sure about the TI chip converting it back to 60Hz since the Sharp 11k/12k will take this and passes the extremely difficult opening of "Shakespeare in Love". In this case the Sharp isn't doing the 3:2 pulldown though. That is done externally and then fed in as 48Hz. Either with a PC or with an iScan HD. Then it is up to me to switch the input to 60Hz for video material.

--Darin

CCONKLIN1

You cannot compare closeout prices to new model prices as representative of quality difference. You can buy the 2005 Ford F150 now, or you can find a dealer that has a 2004 Ford 150 on the lot they need to get rid of. The $10K savings you get is not representative of the quality difference between model years.

New model prices are always high for those that have to be on the bleeding edge, closeout model prices are always low for those on the lagging edge. The real quality price is somewhere in the middle.

This is basic economics supply/demand curve that has nothing to do with quality!

The fact that you have people with H77's selling as fast as they can to get a H79 means there are people on both ends of the curve. Who do you think bought their H77?!

guitarman

There are projectors that resync the chips and colorwheel to do 48Hz without framerate conversion! Sharp, Infocus, maybe PD. 48Hz is not far from 50Hz - so if they do PAL it is only 4% out of tolerance! Shifting down to that last 4% is the problem - you cannot just run at 50Hz.

He said something about you can maybe trick the chip into reading the 48Hz but it would still be converting it to 60Hz. The 72Hz will be a great step further for a better result.

Originally posted by guitarman
He said something about you can maybe trick the chip into reading the 48Hz but it would still be converting it to 60Hz. The 72Hz will be a great step further for a better result.
I don't think 72Hz would really give a better result for a technology that puts whole frames up and leaves them up like DLPs. For scanning technologies like CRTs 72Hz is better than 48Hz, but I don't see what advantage it would give for film on a DLP. If the Sharp 12k converts to 60Hz I don't see how it could pass the DVE judder test and that opening to "Shakespeare In Love". So, I don't believe it is doing that, unless it is doing it in a very intelligent way to pass those tests. Either way, 48Hz with the 11k/12k does the trick of showing film as it is meant to be shown as far as judder.

--Darin

Originally posted by darinp2
Thanks. I'm not sure about the TI chip converting it back to 60Hz since the Sharp 11k/12k will take this and passes the extremely difficult opening of "Shakespeare in Love". In this case the Sharp isn't doing the 3:2 pulldown though. That is done externally and then fed in as 48Hz. Either with a PC or with an iScan HD. Then it is up to me to switch the input to 60Hz for video material.

--Darin

Can't talk for the H79 but the H77 takes 1280x720x48 without any problems from a dvdo HD+. i would be supprised if that was changed for the H79.

Daniel.

danielo
Almost any projector will sync the input up to 48Hz - since it is so close to PAL.

The question is does the DMD/colorwheel sync down to 48Hz. If it does not you cannot pass the judder test without tearing, skipping etc because of the framerate conversion. Look in the HTPC forum there is a good juddertest tool. I like Star Trek Insurrection title and holoship sequences for pan tests, and SeaBiscuit final chapter fade out (watch the dirt pan)

On Infocus if you put your ear on the box - you can actually hear the colorwheel shift gears.

Originally posted by krasmuzik
New model prices are always high for those that have to be on the bleeding edge, closeout model prices are always low for those on the lagging edge. The real quality price is somewhere in the middle.
With the improvements that are often added to these projectors from generation to generation I often tell people that the jump in quality favors the newer model, even with the extra cost. Much like PCs, more than like cars. I feel this is the way things worked out from the Panasonic AE300 to AE500. Also from the Sharp 10k to 12k I felt that the jump in quality more than justified the price difference at introduction in general. So far I'm not hearing enough difference between the H77 and H79 for me to feel that the pendulum of best buy for most people is on the newer model (H79) side. It might be there, but this is one case where I think the current price of the H77 will easily justify a purchase of that one over the new one to many people. However, I haven't seen what actual prices people will be able to get H79s for.

--Darin

The current special deals on H77's are kind of unprecedented anyway - and the H79 isn't really even out in quantity. It'll probably be a month before prices settle down with the newer models coming out. Sure is fun watching all this though. Think I'll go home and watch Alias in HD on my old POS HT1000, or my H76. I'll have to flip a coin............it looks excellent either way - I can't lose!

Originally posted by darinp2
So far I'm not hearing enough difference between the H77 and H79 for me to feel that the pendulum of best buy for most people is on the newer model (H79) side.
--Darin

From what I have picked up, going from a HD2+ to a HD2+Darkchip3 is not going to be the same as when HD2 went to HD2+. Seems to be a baby step as we wait for 1080p from TI. Sure it is better and I might purchase a H79 if I was in the market, but we are still talking about a 720p projector.

My guess is that they will lower the MSRP significantly within the next six months as they come out with the H100? for CEDIA (or whatever it will be called)... ;) SJ

Originally posted by SJHT
My guess is that they will lower the MSRP significantly within the next six months as they come out with the H100? for CEDIA (or whatever it will be called)... ;) SJ HWP100 for Wobble Pretend 1080?

Do you mean color primary/secondary accuracy rather than video decoding accuracy? I knew SpyderTV consumer version has the colorbars measurements - are they adding them to ColorFacts?

No, I mean accuracy of the color decoder as measured with an Avia test pattern, which assumed a ColorFacts user would have.

Thanks for the gamma curve, CIE primaries chart, and RGB histogram.

On/Off Contrast????????
Lumen output?????????

TomHuffman

Gotcha - you mean the AVIA red/green/blue pushscale screen! The Eye-One guitarman is using is not trustworthy for brightness/contrast numbers - and he is still trying to figure out how to point the TrichoMat close enough to get honest repeatable numbers!

Originally posted by krasmuzik
danielo
Almost any projector will sync the input up to 48Hz - since it is so close to PAL.

The question is does the DMD/colorwheel sync down to 48Hz. If it does not you cannot pass the judder test without tearing, skipping etc because of the framerate conversion. Look in the HTPC forum there is a good juddertest tool. I like Star Trek Insurrection title and holoship sequences for pan tests, and SeaBiscuit final chapter fade out (watch the dirt pan)

On Infocus if you put your ear on the box - you can actually hear the colorwheel shift gears.

Point taken, im guessing the 'moving bar' inside the dvd hd+ scaler is also a good test ? I think ive checked that but i will redo it tonight to make sure its running smooth. Ill also get that tool and try that so i can confirm it. Kinda suprisized nobody has done this sofar.

Daniel.

Tom: ? Did optoma lower the output of the bright blue led in the power switch,?

The only numbers I've seen comes from norwegian ProjectionDesign. They measured about 6-9% increase in light output from HD2+ to DC3.

What models have increased lumen spec? I've seen specs on H79, SP7210, PD AMO MkIII, Marantz VP12S4 and Yamaha DPX-1200 and those are the same as their predecessor's specs.

Originally posted by danielo
My main question is darkchip3 should have more light output by alot, what happend to that :). Did they tune it back to the same 900 ansi or is the ansi number more 'real' this time or did they trade it for more bulblife by running it a lower voltage ?

All other dc3's seem to result in more lightputput sofar.

Daniel.

Originally posted by krasmuzik
TomHuffman

Gotcha - you mean the AVIA red/green/blue pushscale screen! The Eye-One guitarman is using is not trustworthy for brightness/contrast numbers - and he is still trying to figure out how to point the TrichoMat close enough to get honest repeatable numbers!

I should receive the Extech light meter I ordered today I hope. Specs say it's accurate -3% +3% plus it can read down to .1 lux.

I aimed the Tri-chromat using Glenn's tip of shadow watching. Small tube on the meter eye aiming to delete all shadows. Plus you see the lumins readings get the highest. Which was quiet high by the way up near 35 and the program was clicking triple time. Tuning proceedure went real fast with that much light power. It flew thru the grayscale run.

Originally posted by drtunes
Tom: ? Did optoma lower the output of the bright blue led in the power switch,?

The blue led is the same. It's best use is when you first turn on the PJ, you know it's going on. :)

Originally posted by guitarman

I aimed the Tri-chromat using Glenn's tip of shadow watching. Small tube on the meter eye aiming to delete all shadows.

Can you elaborate on Glens tip? I have never had a problem aiming my Tri-chromat.

Also, where are you placing the meter? Close to the screen facing the projector, close to the screen facing the screen, or close to the projector facing the projector?

Brad

Hi Tom,

The Gamma curve looks the same as one I had on the H77, so the firmware must be very similar.

Do you have a primaries/secondaries triangle CIE for us? I found my RGB contrast setings would clip above R0 G4 and B9. An FL-Day would help there I think, though I ended up with a different filter set, but as my CF is going towards green, I need to sort that out before I can get some more accurate results now. I'm going to try an FL-Day with skylight to see what that looks like visualy.

Kras,

How do you adjust the mid reds to reduce the gamma hump?

Thanks.

Gary.

danielo

moving bars are video in AVIA - you need film. AVIA PRO might have a proper test pattern for judder test - need to dig deep and see.

Dunno what DVDO has for testing!

The iScan HD/HD+ has a test pattern with a vertical white bar that moves back and forth at a moderate speed on a black background. I believe it's even labeled "judder test" or something similar.

Gary

If you do have a real hump in the mids - then you need individual RGB gamma curve adjustments. In guitarmans case it just looks like a hump because he drained red at 100IRE by adjusting at 80IRE. Some nice Cyan cloud highlites when you do that!

Hi Kras,

The hump is very similar to the one in Toms pic. It's possible that red is low because my sensor is pushing green, but it shows it as flat on the greyscale so in theory should show the gamma as being ok shouldn't it?

I maxed the RGB contrasts to crush, then brought them back, and red shouldn't be deficient in relation the green and blue with the filter I'm using as I used CF to get things to D65 (well, CF thinks it's D65 but it's a little toward green when you look at it)

Cheers.

Gary.

Originally posted by bdavidson
Can you elaborate on Glens tip? I have never had a problem aiming my Tri-chromat.

Also, where are you placing the meter? Close to the screen facing the projector, close to the screen facing the screen, or close to the projector facing the projector?

Brad

Any small cylinder that will fit the eye area of the Tri-chromat. As you move the meter you look for shadows, no shadows and you're aiming right at the light.

I had the meter back at the screen aiming at the projector when I ran the quick tune. Quick I mean I only keyed in on 40IRE and 80IRE. Just really wanted to see if Wings tip of raising the projector gamma choices would lower the end result gamma, which it did. Next time I'll take the time to do 30 thru 90.

I was smart enough to delete subtitles and the on screen menu's after each RGB change so they didn't interfere with the actual light. Time consuming :)

Gary,

Could very well be the case - can you post your filter tweaked charts?

Pushing mid range red is a common trick used on displays that are native high color temperature otherwise - so that faces don't look like martians. Combine that with red push in the video decoding - and you have a mess on your hands trying to get flat greyscale! My old Runco Vx1 based on the NECLT150 did that - until I found somebody that could tweak the gamma tables.

Gary, here's a good look at some primarys.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth7.jpg


What about this CIE chart, is this right? This is what came up in the group of finals after running a grayscale check. Looks too good, I've never seen a DLP machine be dead on.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79cie.jpg

Kevin:

So we (I) are all comparing apples and apples, what's the proper place to measure brightness using a light meter?
a) Meter at screen, pointed at PJ,
b) meter at screen measuring light reflected off screen,
c) meter at projector pointing at screen?
d) somewhere else.

In using this measurment for information and comparison, seems like it might be appropriate to measure pointing towards the projector at it's minimum throw distance and then at it's max distance (if possible).

Options b and c toss in the screen gain variable. Even if everyone had the same screen, options b and c will have a variable distance from the light source. That would make a difference wouldnt' it?

Seems like there should be a standard, like FtL with 100IRE pattern measured at 5 ft from lens. Zoom set to X feet. Or some such. Maybe there already is?

Tom:

Which meter did you buy? Mine's the Extech 403125. Hope to measure this Sim2 tomorrow evening.

Thanks,
Scott

guitarman

Something is wrong with your CIE chart - the HD reference is black triangle - your measurement is a white triangle - and yours is missing! Look at the ones in my linked shootout post.

scotthorton
We just covered that in the recent ColorFacts users thread - let me know if you cannot find it!

Thank you, I'll go find it...

Kras, after you run throught the grayscale check isn't that the correct CIE for that run. Or do I have to do something different?

Scott, same meter 403125 $59. Stats look good for it compared to more expensive meters. Mainly I was seeing -5%/+5%, plus it does the very low lux.
What I remember is to get up close to the projector, how close they didn't say. I figure a foot away. if you're tripod can't go high enough, bungie it up on a ladder. Tape off the blue LED light. :) Plus when you hit the menu's you'll have all the LED lights going on for a bit like a light show. ;)

Plus go up to the screen to make sure blacks dither is off totally.

Hi Tom,

You have to run the color primaries wizard for the CIE gamut (you can opt for secondaries as well if you want to). The one you have there just shows you where each ire measurement falls in relation to the black body curve within it - idealy they should all fall on top of each other at D65.

Love the 'other' primaries though. :)

Gary.

:) The poor girl gets over looked becuase she's pretty Mpegged out. This time I thought I caught freeze so I let it rip. Plus it's the H79.

I see what I can get with the wizard. thx

Originally posted by guitarman
Gary, here's a good look at some primarys.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth7.jpg



Not sure when mammaries replaced green as a primary color - but no complaints here!

guitarman,

The sequence I follow is

1) Primaries/Secondaries (save the chart here - these go away after greyscale)
2) Contrast/Brightness measure
3) do the RGB adjustments
4) run greyscale/gamma
5) save the pics/data. -- If you do a save data on CIE chart - it will have everything including missing primary/secondary - you can load it into Excel.
6) rerun Contrast/Brightness (you can load the calibration from the address book to save this as a note)

On the NEC I start back at #1 each mode because it adjusts all color not just grey. Maybe just go back to #2 for each mode on Optoma.

mammaries, primaries and secondaries - all seems within the same vernacular so sounds fine. Now all we need is a Colorfacts Wizard along similar lines!. :)

Where's Mark H these days?

Gary.

Originally posted by guitarman
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth7.jpg

OT: Who is this chick? I mean, I know her from the movie, but who is she?

Did she play the blond telepath in Babylon5?

Originally posted by guitarman
Gary, here's a good look at some primarys.

Looks too good, I've never seen a DLP machine be dead on.



From WSR:

http://www.widescreenreview.com/wsrmmbr/eqrev/pdfs/88er01.pdf

Originally posted by krasmuzik
Did she play the blond telepath in Babylon5?
Hmm, not sure. I thought the women on B5 had a deeper voice than the women in 5E.

Since I can view the credits, Laura De Palma. Not much info on the actress, probably married off to a director and checked out.

Tom, only you would have made an effort away from the computer. LOL

I have the mornings free and start TVing at 6am. This morning I was fiddling with the HT1000 and the Light Meter. Can't figure out if the meter works or how it should work.


Scott did you try your meter? Any instructions I didn't get any with the used one I bought?

Originally posted by guitarman
Scott did you try your meter? Any instructions I didn't get any with the used one I bought? I'm fuzzy on it, too, but did get a lot of experience using it doing the SmartIII thing. That was tedious but educational. SmartIII didn't work out for me so I returned it (with meter). But I, like you wanted to be able to take these measurments so I ordered a new meter (only). It arrived today, won't see it till tonight. The other one was also new of course and it came with some limited instructions, but nothing much IIRC. I'll take a look at what I got today and let you know. Send me a PM with an e-mail address or FAX number and I'll send a copy of it if you want one. So, we'll see tonight. I'm gonna measure that 300E and see if it's my eyes or not but it seems dimmer than my H77 (although the H77 was not calibrated which would be a factor I expect). This particular measurment ought to be pretty straight forward.

I couldn't find the info krasmusik pointed me to on a colorfacts thread so I started another thread about how this is supposed to be done and/or IF there is a standardized or at least typical method. i.e. what WRS uses for instance. Haven't gotten much input yet. For the archives that thread is HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5164527)

Tom, here's what I measured off the Sim2 300E.
5.69 fc at 14' from lens (to screen)
and 104.0 fc @ 3'

That works out to 7.4 FL using Kras' formula on my 110" firehawk. Pretty dim by smtpe stds of 16. Or what I hear as a preference of 12 or so. And that's with a liberal 1.3 gain for the Firehawk that some folks say is really more like 1.1.

So what'cha get'n with that H79 at those distances?

BTW, if you didn't figure it out, to turn on backlighting on that meter, press and hold down the middle button.

Thanks,
Scott

Scott

That would be 200 lumens with a new lamp. Maybe more because the FireHawk gain is probably less than stated. Infocus measures 4-5x as bright - so there must be different setup modes on the 300E. I have always consider Sim2 as too dim to print - and thought the excitement about it was because it was brighter. Maybe there is something to Alan running his on a SilverStar then!

Knowing these numbers are important for doing reference setups. Some dealers don't want to hurt the vendor relationships by quoting actual calibrated results - I think it should be more important to worry about your customers setups.

I have never recieved any complaints from NEC/Infocus about my honest reviews - maybe they don't read AVS! Only review complaints are from NEC readers refusing to believe it does not make high contrast and brightness numbers - it actually is what they say it is - just not all at the same time or in the movie modes!

Originally posted by scotthorton
And that's with a liberal 1.3 gain for the Firehawk that some folks say is really more like 1.1.
And then only at the peak spot. It will usually be much lower out from the center, so people shouldn't assume they are getting this over their whole screen. I think many setups would have a dropoff to half of the center gain at the edges with the Firehawk.

--Darin

Tom,
Thanks again for all of the screenshots. If you have the time, could you post a H79 shot from 5th element from your H77 review? I would like to see these two closeups together. Thanks! SJ

Tom's H77 5th Element Screenshot (http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77fifth2.jpg)

The H79 looks pretty bright and I'll get around to figuring the lumens with the Mat White screen. I did order a High Power replacement material and Roller to use in the cosmopolitan case. Pretty cool you can just swap the roller and it's pretty cheap to do also. I had the HP material before and it works very well PJ table or ceiling mounted. I think it's the company's greatest product.

Not that I think the H77 or H79 needs a boost. The materials just a winner especially for the non-tensioned electric.

Tom, forget the calc's. Can you give me straight a fc or lux reading with a 100 IRE full screen pattern from your new meter and tell me the distance from the lens you measured it? PM if you prefer. That will tell how much difference there is from it and a 300E, and my old H77 for that matter. Thanks, Scott

Can do but at night. My prob is I seem to party at night. :) I'm at the shop right now.

Here's the PAL guys nightmare U571 shot on the H79.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79u571contour.jpg

No problem here, it's pretty smooth and look how bright the light is.

Scott my distance will be 14' and I aim the meter at the lens correct? Thx for the tip on the backlight.

Originally posted by scotthorton
Tom, forget the calc's. Can you give me straight a fc or lux reading with a 100 IRE full screen pattern from your new meter and tell me the distance from the lens you measured it? PM if you prefer. That will tell how much difference there is from it and a 300E, and my old H77 for that matter.
The distance from the lens is irrellevant unless you know the throw (or image size at that distance). One way to get the right information is to fit the image to the screen size, then put the screen up and put the sensor where the screen would be. This is slightly more accurate than putting the sensor in front of the screen. Another way is to size the image for the screen, move the projector back something like 4 inches and then put the sensor 4 inches from the screen. Or hold a piece of paper out from the screen at some known distance at the edges and zoom so that the image is the same size as the screen, but a few inches out and then measure from that spot.

These are just all to get a little more accuracy, but a shallow sensor right against the screen is pretty close.

--Darin

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79fifth5.jpg

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77fifth2.jpg

Those comparing shots wanted, the freeze clips are different and each have different light shading.

Different players also. The H79 shot is with a Toshiba HDMI player, the H77 is the Bravo D1. H79 shot is calibrated with colorfacts, Bravo shot is not.

14' away I'm shooting a 92"wide image. Makes sense to get the screen out of the way. With mat white the whole room is lit up with 100IRE pattern. Oh plus I got white walls and ceiling. If I get a high reading it will only be better for you that have dark rooms. I'll post the number tonight.

Originally posted by guitarman
Scott my distance will be 14' and I aim the meter at the lens correct? Thx for the tip on the backlight. [/B] That is correct. At the screen. When reading LUX (or Fc), it isn't going to change too much (vs 1/2" back with screen retracted) for this purpose if you just put the sensor's back to the screen. Sensor's back to screen can be our common point. Back to the screen would be my preferred measurment for the comparitive LUX/Fc.

So what I'd like to know is:

1. Lux (or Fc) reading from your Extech meter with meter sensor's back to screen,
2. the 16:9 image width (92" per your previous post)
3. Distance to screen (14' per your previous post)

And yes, of course at night. I too, have to wait to night for this meas. due to windows.

Thanks Tom! Scott

Hi Scott, sri I'm late but like I said I party at night. :)

Ok 92" wide image 14' away 100IRE total dark no screen, centered light meter facing the PJ, 19.95 ft-candlesl. Not bad heh?

Lux is 18.55

3.60 ft candles at 3 feet, centered up.

Told you the H79 is bright.

Originally posted by darinp2
Thanks. I'm not sure about the TI chip converting it back to 60Hz since the Sharp 11k/12k will take this and passes the extremely difficult opening of "Shakespeare in Love". In this case the Sharp isn't doing the 3:2 pulldown though. That is done externally and then fed in as 48Hz. Either with a PC or with an iScan HD. Then it is up to me to switch the input to 60Hz for video material.

--Darin

I made a custom resolution on my momitsu 1280x720 at 48hz. My Optoma H77 takes it an indicate that it's feeding signal is in fact 1280x720 at 48hz.
I watch a few movies and it's seem fluid at that resolution. I don't have "Shakepeare in love" in my DVD collection. Any other title and scene I can experience with?

Hey, today I received a Bravo D2, just used 720p and image looks clean with no EE, not like the Oppo I was trying. Very nice DVD image - No hang ups either. Solid machine/ recommended.

Originally posted by bgosselin
I made a custom resolution on my momitsu 1280x720 at 48hz. My Optoma H77 takes it an indicate that it's feeding signal is in fact 1280x720 at 48hz.
I watch a few movies and it's seem fluid at that resolution. I don't have "Shakepeare in love" in my DVD collection. Any other title and scene I can experience with?
I have a Momitsu and didn't even think of making a custom 1280x720@48 from it for my 11k. I'm not sure why not. I'll have to try that.

I'm trying to think of good test scenes. I know some people have mentioned Titanic where they pan across showing the whole boat. There are some scenes from the extended version of "Return of the King" I was looking at where they pan up to show the city on the hill. I know there is a spot in the last chapter of the first disk where the Steward looks down over the edge of the city to see the big army in front of them, but that is a quick one. If you have "The Matrix" just after Trinity runs to the phone about 10 minutes in there is a pan up through some rubbish to a telephone laying off the hook and this one is a little jumpy at 60Hz on my 11k, but not at 48Hz (from my PC). I'm going to go try the HD version from HBO (Comcast) to see how well it plays back at 48Hz.

More will probably come to mind later if you don't have any of those.
Originally posted by guitarman
Lux is 18.55

3.60 ft candles at 3 feet, centered up.

Told you the H79 is bright.
Are you sure that lux is right? That doesn't sound very bright. Is it off by a factor of 10?

--Darin

Don't know how great the meter is but those are the figures it brought up facing the PJ 14' away. I'm still feeling my way through using the meter though. What kind of numbers should it have read? Are th Ftl's ok?

Originally posted by bgosselin
I made a custom resolution on my momitsu 1280x720 at 48hz. My Optoma H77 takes it an indicate that it's feeding signal is in fact 1280x720 at 48hz.
I watch a few movies and it's seem fluid at that resolution. I don't have "Shakepeare in love" in my DVD collection. Any other title and scene I can experience with?

I also did the same test with the dvdo hd+ juttertest test again with 1280x720x48 output and it moved smooth. You also hear the colorwheel step down and the cooling fans change speed (they are linked).

Daniel.

Tom,

That's about 1.7 ft lamberts. There are 3 or 4 ranges on the light meter, try to use one that will register somewhere in the middle of the range. One of them has a x10 factor to apply, so you'll probably want the one before it.

To convert your Lux to Lumens, multiply by 3.072. If we all talk in lumens then we're comparing equaly and to the manufacturers light output. The conversion number will change depending on the screen size. My 84inch wide screen needs 2.561 to do the conversion.

1lux = 1 lumen per square meter, so just convert your screen area into square meters and multiply it by the lux number on you meter. We need square feet for ft lamberts though. :)

If you calculate your screen area in square feet, you can divide it by 10.764 to come to square meters if that makes it easier.

Gary.

Originally posted by bgosselin
I made a custom resolution on my momitsu 1280x720 at 48hz. My Optoma H77 takes it an indicate that it's feeding signal is in fact 1280x720 at 48hz.
I watch a few movies and it's seem fluid at that resolution. I don't have "Shakepeare in love" in my DVD collection. Any other title and scene I can experience with?
I setup a custom resolution for my Momitsu after reading your message and tried this with the 11k. However, I forgot that when testing the Momitsu before I think we found that it basically stays in video mode. That is, I don't think it does the 3:2 pulldown required to get smooth playback at 48. I'll probably try to rent or buy "Shakespeare in Love" later to verify things a little more.
Originally posted by danielo
I also did the same test with the dvdo hd+ juttertest test again with 1280x720x48 output and it moved smooth. You also hear the colorwheel step down and the cooling fans change speed (they are linked).
Thanks. That is good to hear. I wonder how much the colorwheel slows down. I believe that Dan Miller said that the S3 colorwheel spins at 3x for 48Hz (instead of the normal 2.5x for 60Hz). That would equate to 288Hz instead of 300Hz on the S3, so not a lot of drop. If they kept the spinning at 2.5x it would go to 240Hz. This is all with 2 sets of RGB on the wheels.

--Darin

Originally posted by darinp2
I setup a custom resolution for my Momitsu after reading your message and tried this with the 11k. However, I forgot that when testing the Momitsu before I think we found that it basically stays in video mode. That is, I don't think it does the 3:2 pulldown required to get smooth playback at 48. I'll probably try to rent or buy "Shakespeare in Love" later to verify things a little more.

--Darin

I'm far from beeing an expert in deinterlacing. But I thought that setting the resolution to 48hz was to eliminate the need for 3:2 pulldown and replace it with 2:2.

I have the matrix. I will try that scene with trinity. Even if it's not smooth chance are that the momitsu is at fault. The H77 seems to sync at 48hz anyway. Danielo test is a better test.

Bruno

Tom,
Are you making all of your adjustments in the normal H79 menu or in the service menu? Can you post your results so far (changes you made from OTB setup - maybe show original value vs. changed value)? I'm curious where most of your tweaking is going on and it certainly will be a good guide for other H79 owners. Thanks. SJ

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
[B]To convert your Lux to Lumens, multiply by 3.072. If we all talk in lumens then we're comparing equaly and to the manufacturers light output. The conversion number will change depending on the screen size. My 84inch wide screen needs 2.561 to do the conversion. It may not be that straight forward IMO. I'm more interested in seeing raw fc (or Lux - metric) measurments and to know what the projector is set to display at what distance. i.e. 5fc @ 14' with PJ set at 100" diag screen size. Then we don't throw any conversion errors into the report.

Tom:

Gary is right. The range button on your meter will cycle through several ranges. You'll see the decimal point move and the x10 indicator come and go. Choose the range that will give the most decimal points. If the light is too bright the meter will display "L" I think saying it's range is exceeded, so back down one scale.

One thing that there is no doubt (in my mind) about it converting Luc to Fc, that's just SAE and metric units. To convert fc to Lux it's:
Lux = Fc * 10.76
Fc = Lux * .0929

So for my 300E measurments I had 5.69 Fc, and that = ~63 Lux

For your measurments, 19.95Fc @ 14' that woudl equal ~210 Lux at the same distance. And that would be very nice I think, even for a new bulb. If it dropped 50% with age it would still be double than what I measured.

So if you can, check your meter ranges via it's range button and give another shot to double check.

Thanks!
Scott

Originally posted by bgosselin
I far from beeing in expert in deinterlacing. But I thought that seeting the resolution to 48hz was to eliminate the need for 3:2 pulldown.

I have the matrix. I will try that scene with trinity. Even if it's not smooth chance are that the momitsu is at fault. The H77 seems to sync at 48hz anyway. Danielo test is a better test.

Bruno

Lets not forget i am using a pal model of the H77 and that needs to work at 50hz anyway so thats very close to 48hz. We can't be sure if it will work the same with all models because of this. Also i can't be 100% sure its doing 48hz internally just hear it go down from 60hz (on ntsc signals) to a lower speed if i put the hd+ to 48hz instead of 59.xx).

But my question is still should pal (or 48hz) not be easer for the system since it has (even with 8 segments) more time per segment (since the wheel is running alot slower). My question on mirror speed is also still open i claim that HD2+ and DC3 run the same mirror speed (fast track) anyone who has facts im wrong ?

Daniel.

Originally posted by bgosselin
I far from beeing in expert in deinterlacing. But I thought that seeting the resolution to 48hz was to eliminate the need for 3:2 pulldown and replace it with 2:2.
I think you're right. My point was really that if the Momitsu isn't looking at film flags it won't be able to do either. I remember during one test with an AVIA pattern that checks for how long it takes a player to switch between film mode and video mode, the Momitsu just seemed to stay in video mode the whole time.
Originally posted by danielo
My question on mirror speed is also still open i claim that HD2+ and DC3 run the same mirror speed (fast track) anyone who has facts im wrong ?
I remember that a TI document somebody pointed to did claim that the mirrors are faster with DC3 than HD2+. I don't remember it saying how much faster though.

--Darin

Originally posted by danielo
My question on mirror speed is also still open i claim that HD2+ and DC3 run the same mirror speed (fast track) anyone who has facts im wrong ?
Daniel.

Not to nitpick, but to my understanding both chips are HD2+, only the older version is a DC2 and the newer DC3. Darin's point is correct, according to much of the literature, there is a change in speed, although like him I cannot recall the difference. The point of my correction is just to avoid future confusion.

Cheers,
Raul

Originally posted by Raul GS
Not to nitpick, but to my understanding both chips are HD2+, only the older version is a DC2 and the newer DC3. Darin's point is correct, according to much of the literature, there is a change in speed, although like him I cannot recall the difference. The point of my correction is just to avoid future confusion.

Cheers,
Raul


Yeah sorry hd2+dc2 vs hd2+dc3 , If there is a document someone have it since all hints ive seen the new speed was added with hd2 to hd2+ but each time i see this higher speed for dc3 coming up and would like to read about it in some TI doc.

Daniel.

Originally posted by scotthorton

One thing that there is no doubt (in my mind) about it converting Luc to Fc, that's just SAE and metric units. To convert fc to Lux it's:
Lux = Fc * 10.76
Fc = Lux * .0929

Scott

Those are the conversions I have too, so we agree there. :)

As the numbers refer to square feet or square meters, you can also use screen area to round up the calculation, but it changes from screen to screen of course as the areas will vary. I mistakenly used my screen area conversion instead of yours at one point. :rolleyes: I edited in the correction tho.

It would certainly be good to know exactly what size screen and distance the manufacturers use to obtain their numbers though.

Gary.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
It would certainly be good to know exactly what size screen and distance the manufacturers use to obtain their numbers though.

Why? If you mean it would be nice to know which end of the zoom range they use, then yes, that could be useful. Apart from that or having a smokey room, the lumens should come out the same. For some of the projectors with multiple lenses I know that the max lumens can be at different ends of the zoom between 2 different lenses. I think they generally use one spec per projector to keep things simple, instead of having a couple of specs per lens choice. I believe that Bob Williams said they use the minimum image size end of the zoom for spec measurement on their projectors.

--Darin

I only ask because it would be nice to replicate their numbers. As it is, I'm getting 40% less on my H77 which is not unusual I know, but it does make you wonder if you've made an error somwhere.

Gary.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
I only ask because it would be nice to replicate their numbers. As it is, I'm getting 40% less on my H77 which is not unusual I know, but it does make you wonder if you've made an error somwhere.

Do you have the white peaking turned on? And the colors blown out? I bet that is what they do. I don't see anywhere that they claim D65 for their specs. I think that Yamaha is pretty explicit about stating that their specs are with the white peaking feature (leaving mirrors on during spoke time) turned on, although I wouldn't use or recommend using that feature in general.

--Darin

Gary

White peaking is responsible for doubling the contrast ratio and brightness on the Infocus SP7205. Silly thing is they market contrast with white peaking on, but D65 brightness with white peaking off (since it is brighter than anything else anyways!). I bet that is your missing measurement - since you already maxed RGB - white peaking will max out gamma. Optoma certainly does not market the D65 numbers.

Read the latest HTmag - reviews several $3K DLP/LCD - all off them are about half spec.

Originally posted by krasmuzik
White peaking is responsible for doubling the contrast ratio and brightness on the Infocus SP7205.
Doubling. Wow! The Sharp 11k isn't even close to that, or I could get 7000:1 on/off CR.

Silly thing is they market contrast with white peaking on, but D65 brightness with white peaking off (since it is brighter than anything else anyways!).
The specs I see are 1100 ANSI lumens and 2200:1 on/off CR. Are you saying that the lumens are at D65 and it can do over 2000 ANSI lumens with white peaking on? Is the CR 1100:1 with the white peaking off? I'm a little bit confused about how your explanation matches up with their specs since I would be pretty surprised if they could do even close to 2000 lumens, even with white peaking. But I guess I had assumed that their projectors were capable of over 1000 lumens without white peaking (since I don't think any reviewer should be calibrating with white peaking on).

--Darin

Originally posted by darinp2
Do you have the white peaking turned on? And the colors blown out? I bet that is what they do. I don't see anywhere that they claim D65 for their specs. I think that Yamaha is pretty explicit about stating that their specs are with the white peaking feature (leaving mirrors on during spoke time) turned on, although I wouldn't use or recommend using that feature in general.

--Darin

Can you explain to me what spoke time mean? In the Optoma H77 service menu there is a fonction call Spoke light on: choice are white,black,red,green,blue

Bruno

Originally posted by bgosselin
Can you explain to me what spoke time mean? In the Optoma H77 service menu there is a fonction call Spoke light on: choice are white,black,red,green,blue

I sometimes refer to spoke time as no-man's-land, but spoke time is more accepted.

I'm not sure what all those choices are, but basically if you picture a colorwheel you will see that there are transition points between the segments, like where red becomes green. The logic for the chips and mirrors aren't fast enough to follow that line as it passes across the chip, so in general all mirrors are turned off during this time, which is called the spoke time. However, one way to get more white is to leave all the mirrors on for pixels that are supposed to be white during the spoke time for all 3 primaries (assuming a 6 segment wheel). This adds red, green, and blue, so essentially white. However, it messes up the grayscale and normal images because whites get really bright, where other things don't. It can still be a good way to fight ambient light if your images are getting totally washed out though (like in a boardroom). Basically, it works like the white segment on a business DLP, but just using 3 spoke times to equal one white.

I'm guessing that "white" means blow out these whites by turning the mirrors on during this spoke time. "Black" is the normal mode for HT. The "red", "green", and "blue" probably have something to do with leaving the mirrors on more as only those segments are entered or left, but I'm not sure of the actually functionality that would be.

--Darin

darinp2

Indeed that is the case! Contrast number comes from (nearly) doubling brightness with white peaking. (Infocus is always brighter than spec at D65 - but I guess somebody decided 1K contrast would not fly!). Now you know why I was arguing for using it as a plasma simulator with the Vutec SilverStar - just turn on the white peaking!

This should not be surprising since it is based on their LP650 design which was 2500 Lumens and 800:1 contrast. The ScreenPlay version just lowers the brightness and ups the contrast.

ISF LUMENS
SP7205 1126 (spec is 880 in low lamp, no white peaking)

ISF ON/OFF CONTRAST
SP7205 1200 (spec is 2200:1 with white peaking, this is with it off)

The huge contrast jump from SP7200 to SP7205 was 40% DC2 engineering, 60% marketing. This is why I like the SP4805 so much - it's marketed numbers are honest all the way around 2K:1 with no white peaking. Beats many higher priced boxes - and kills in the $<2K category (though guitarman is claiming the H31 should reclaim with the DC2 now - we shall see!)

I can measure it again - maybe not quiet twice but close. I intend to watch HellBoy-HD with the SP7205 so should be swapping it back in.

That is why I say contrast is fiction anymore - either DLP gets it with the white peaking, or LCD gets it with an IRIS to improve blacks. In either case you have non-linear gamma and blown out color temps that are not flat.

I remember when I reviewed the SP5700 before I learned of the white peaking "feature" - I was getting 1800 lumens! The initial firmware white peaking defaulted to 100 - later firmwares brought it down to 0.

Bottom line is I think that Optoma is using both white peaking and cyan color temps and hot lamps to get the brightness/contrast they claim. Which is fine - I would use that bright mode in the daylight room.

bgosselin

spoke time is the white peaking feature - mixing the RGB to increase brightness by using the wheel closer to the spokes to the point that for an instant some of the screen might be half red, some might be half green. Your brain will perceive it as whiter as the wheel revolves - just as it does the sequential RGB flashing. Looks like a neat service menu feature if they let you control that mixture! Say you calibrate for 80IRE and reds are drained at 100IRE - use the service menu to add some red peaking!

The H79 has white peak but don't use it.

Sri guys I'll get back into it but I was up in Sacramento today with my equip tuning up Craigs H76. End result was excellent for Craig. I brought up the H79 for him to see. The difference between the two was pretty close. In general Optoma has a great product. Nobody has to worry about their model not producing a top notch picture. H79 produced a similar color palate with blacks/contrast being a little more deep. Both PJ's looked more than excellent.

Looks like we won't see the H79 here in the UK. See below.

Hi Jeff,

Have no plans in introducing the H79 in the UK, thats what I've been told anyway. I suspect we might see some thing by the end of the year. H80?

Regards
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Paynter [mailto:projectors@eurobell.co.uk]
Sent: 09 February 2005 15:01
To: Stuart Acey
Subject: H79


Hi Stuart,

Will the H79 be coming to the UK ?

If so, do you have price and availability.

Thanks

Jeff

Jeff Paynter
Director
Horsham Hi-Fi & Home Cinema Ltd
Tel: 01403 272931
Mobile: 07890 390310
www.projectorsareus.com
projectors@eurobell.co.uk

Thanks so very much Tom for calibrating my H76! That was extremely kind of you. I really like the H79 picture too. The difference picture wise from the H76 - H 77 - H79 is incremental, but it is noticeable. Little better blacks, little smoother picture. You can't really go wrong with any of these pj IMO - it just depends on how much you want to spend!

Originally posted by RTFM
Looks like we won't see the H79 here in the UK. See below.

Hi Jeff,

Have no plans in introducing the H79 in the UK, thats what I've been told anyway. I suspect we might see some thing by the end of the year. H80?

Regards
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Paynter [mailto:projectors@eurobell.co.uk]
Sent: 09 February 2005 15:01
To: Stuart Acey
Subject: H79


Hi Stuart,

Will the H79 be coming to the UK ?

If so, do you have price and availability.

Thanks

Jeff

Jeff Paynter
Director
Horsham Hi-Fi & Home Cinema Ltd
Tel: 01403 272931
Mobile: 07890 390310
www.projectorsareus.com
projectors@eurobell.co.uk


Thats because it will be called the H77a last time i asked (ill ask again) planned for may. Same as the H31 that is called H30a.

Daniel.

I did wonder the same thing myself, but if a dealer wanted to know if Optoma had a knew product on the way so he could stock it and sell it, you wouldn't think they'd play name games with him so as not to supply him. If they did, they'd be limiting they're sales volume simply because the dealer got the product name wrong.

I wouldn't be surprised if the rep was misinformed though. It'll be interesting to see if it arrives here or not.

Gary.

Well I hooked up my H79 tonight. :) What first grabs your attention (vs. the H77) is how bright this thing is. Wow. Contrast seems much better as well. The picture just seems deeper in some way (more 3D)... Need to do some more viewing. By the way, screen is a 100" Firehawk.

Tom, how about posting the various settings you have changed so I can try them out (I realize that every machine will be different, but it might be a good start). Thank you! SJ

Originally posted by SJHT
Well I hooked up my H79 tonight. :)

Any comments on the panning bit-depth reduction problems? I got a chance to demo a H77 over the weekend and it was clearly visible on the right scenes.

BTW there are much better scenes to test with than Starship Troopers and LOTR. Check out Spiderman 2 on the scene where he is dragging his motorcycle home after he missed the play. As he passes all the posters of his wanna be girlfriend, her faces smear out.

Well I'm going to Optoma tomorrow to check out the H79 next to the H77 in their theater room. Any ideas what I should pay attention to in particular other than the obvious or subtle differences that will likely become apparent? Just don't want to overlook something important while I'm there.

Originally posted by sotagear
Well I'm going to Optoma tomorrow to check out the H79 next to the H77 in their theater room. Any ideas what I should pay attention to in particular other than the obvious or subtle differences that will likely become apparent? Just don't want to overlook something important while I'm there.

You should check the hours on each bulb as that could impact the image they throw greatly. Especially if the H77 bulb is at its half-life already and the H79 is relatively new.

John

Originally posted by sotagear
Well I'm going to Optoma tomorrow to check out the H79 next to the H77 in their theater room. Any ideas what I should pay attention to in particular other than the obvious or subtle differences that will likely become apparent? Just don't want to overlook something important while I'm there.

You should check the hours on each bulb as that could impact the image they throw greatly. Especially if the H77 bulb is at its half-life already and the H79 is relatively new.

John

Originally posted by sotagear
Well I'm going to Optoma tomorrow to check out the H79 next to the H77 in their theater room. Any ideas what I should pay attention to in particular other than the obvious or subtle differences that will likely become apparent? Just don't want to overlook something important while I'm there.

You should check the hours on each bulb as that could impact the image they throw greatly. Especially if the H77 bulb is at its half-life already and the H79 is relatively new.

John

Originally posted by bdavidson
Any comments on the panning bit-depth reduction problems? I got a chance to demo a H77 over the weekend and it was clearly visible on the right scenes.

BTW there are much better scenes to test with than Starship Troopers and LOTR. Check out Spiderman 2 on the scene where he is dragging his motorcycle home after he missed the play. As he passes all the posters of his wanna be girlfriend, her faces smear out.

I'll try it and let you know.... SJ

Originally posted by SJHT
Well I hooked up my H79 tonight. :) What first grabs your attention (vs. the H77) is how bright this thing is. Wow. Contrast seems much better as well. The picture just seems deeper in some way (more 3D)... Need to do some more viewing. By the way, screen is a 100" Firehawk.

Tom, how about posting the various settings you have changed so I can try them out (I realize that every machine will be different, but it might be a good start). Thank you! SJ

I left the service area alone and used the user advanced RGB's. Each PJ will have some different service settings.

I'll get a run down on all the numbers sometime soon. I did progressive, interlaced component and DVI, no HDTV yet I was having a problem with the Radio Shack RF converter trick.

Panning motions on the H79 renders quicker. The odd tuff clips will just look blurry with no waves, the way they look on a tube TV, (Journey in darkness LOTR clip). The clip will show some waves with the H77 though.

Thanks Tom. Look forward to getting your numbers. Although I never had my H77 ISF calibrated, the overall color on the H79 (OTB) looks much better. Actually more CRT like. Seems to look a little less "digital" with a warmer feel to it. I need to do a lot more viewing to get a better feel for it. It may just be the color settings are different or something.... SJ

Just walked in from my H77/H79 demo at Optoma. They had just pulled an H77 from a box & with no setup it was very red & washed out. After spending about 15 minutes adjusting it to be a bit more in line, the differences between it & the H79 were much more subtle.

After about 45 more minutes of going back & forth between the 2 (after the H77 was tweaked a bit), I would say the biggest differences between them was as follows. Overall I thought the H79 looked more 3 dimensional & although we focused each projector, the H79 also looked a bit clearer to my eye. And though I suspect it was a setup issue, the H79 seemed to have a bit more natural look to the colors. In general, the H77 looked great but the H79 was just a bit easier on the eyes.

For about a 15% improvement there is over a 100% difference in msrp ($4500 vs $10k). With 1080p projectors coming before year's end & the InFocus 7210 msrp set at $6999 it's hard to make a decision on the H79 at this time. Hmm - what to do?

I think the H77's MSRP is the same $6999. The price you see advertised is a MAP.

Originally posted by guitarman
I think the H77's MSRP is the same $6999. The price you see advertised is a MAP. Nope, Per the product manager posted here on AVS:

"We are happy to announce that we have reduced the Optoma H77 RETAIL price to $4,499.00.
Ralph Merrem Director Product Management"

That's "retail" as in M S Retail Price. Not minimum advertised price.

But it's all a moot point anyway. Rules prohibit saying what street is I think, but maybe it's OK to say the differences in street. That difference would be $2300 or $2700 if you figure current H77 street includes a $400+ bulb.

Originally posted by bdavidson
Any comments on the panning bit-depth reduction problems? I got a chance to demo a H77 over the weekend and it was clearly visible on the right scenes.

BTW there are much better scenes to test with than Starship Troopers and LOTR. Check out Spiderman 2 on the scene where he is dragging his motorcycle home after he missed the play. As he passes all the posters of his wanna be girlfriend, her faces smear out.

I watched the Spiderman 2 scene several times this evening. I really looked closely at the pictures behind him (of M.J.) and they all look normal to me. No smearing on any of her faces....

I will say that the color and depth of the H79 really is impressive. SJ

Given the fact that temporal dithering is still an issue for some. I'd like to know how the H79 does the pan in the begining scene from fith element where the boy comes in and the pan starts over the column. The letter in the column are breaking apart there on many projectors. (Mitsubishi has it covered, as Li-on determined, they somehow managed to fix it! (HC900 HC2000) )

Another sequence is the opening menu of MIB-II right after you press play. The colums moves to the right breakes apart from temporal dithering.

So guitarman or other H79 early adopter, is there any difference there, how does it look?

The H79 will probably handle any torture test scene like a charm. They said the new chips pivot makes the mirrors move quicker and will handle dither motion better. It does, just this morning I looked at U571's special opp/motorcycle guy dither and the scene played fast with no studder. Same for the LOTR Journey in the dark, motions are picked up much faster, waves and judder all but gone.

Jason's sticky post up top, looks like AVS will be getting some of the first batch. Prepare for an eye popping experience, no joke :)

Even my wife who care's less/ on first viewing the H79 she was startled and said "this is the best TV picture I've ever seen in my life!"

And being around my house she's seen a few lol, but this was the first time she freaked out like this. Very nice machine

Originally posted by guitarman
Jason's sticky post up top, looks like AVS will be getting some of the first batch. Prepare for an eye popping experience, no joke :)

Now we're talking. My decision just got a whole lot easier now!

Yes we're getting a small batch, the first in the country, end of this month. Then we are getting another larger batch (the next in the country) in mid to late March. We are taking no obligation preorders. Basically we get all your information and then put you in the que. If you want to cancel no harm done. We also are not taking deposits up from so anyone interested jump on this now.

I gotta tell you again, I'm sitting here right now with all the curtians open (daylight) plus I have a light on 3' from the screen and the picture still has strong contrast. This machine must be more powerfull then I gave it credit for. I couldn't do this with the H77 or NEC HT1000.

Looks good !!

2 quick Q's:

1. Does it have a nice stretch like the stadium mode of the HT1000 ?
2. How are the rainbows ?

Thanks, Mark

SJ wanted some colorfacts numbers.

DVI progressive dvd player

Basic picture
Cinema
Contrast 14
Brightness minus 3
Sharpness 2
Gamma 3

Image
White peak zero
Color tem 2
Image mode Film

Advanced Adjustment
R contrast 3
G contrast 0
B contrast -4

R brightness -8
G brightness 0
B brightness 1

Factory Service Picture for DVI
Gain red 149
Gain green 133
Gain bLue 130
Bias red 111
Bias green 113
Bias blue 114

Different DVI DVD players will probably output different voltage though. This was with a Toshiba SD-5970.

The tosh has a high voltage bias similar to the Bravo D1, in other words it will push the brigh level at stock. Re-tuning with RGB is needed.

Next up a analog progressive scan player which should be more compatable re other players.

Lmk how it goes if you anyone trys these numbers with a Bravo?

I'd like some opinions on the optics of the H79.

The H77 I owned (briefly) had fairly flimsy build quality when it came to the optics. The dial used to adjust the lens shift was cheap and turning it always made me feel like I was pushing the mechanism too hard. It just didn't sound right.

Also, adjusting the focus caused the lens to shift suddenly and by quite a bit. This was annoying while trying to get things set up.

Worst of all, obtaining even focus across the whole screen seemed impossible. Using my Windows desktop as a reference, the bottom 1/4 of the image was fairly fuzzy. I was at the far end of the lens shift though.

I have my name on the AVS preorder list but wanted to hear from some of the H79 owners regarding these issues.

My only complaint aside from the optics was the panning artifact. If that has been fixed thanks to faster mirrors and better processing, the H79 could finally be the projector to take up permanent residence in my theater.

Colorfacts numbers, progressive player Phillips Q50.

Basic user picture
Cinema
Contrast -40
Brightness 10
Color -3
Sharpness 3
Gamma 2

Image
White peak zero
Color temp 2
Image mode Film

Advanced Adjustment
R contrast 15
B contrast 0
B contrast -3

R brightness -14
G brightness 0
B brightness -4

Factory service Picture
gain red 142
gain green 124
gain blue 125
bias red 107
bias green 120
bias blue 112

Thirdkind: There has been nothing to indicate _any_ mechanical changes on the H79. I would be very ,very surprised if anything other than the logo was changed there, especially optics. Panning artifact seemed to be hit and miss on different H77's, I didn't see it on mine. Hopefully if I get an H79, I'll get lucky and get one of those without it, too.

Originally posted by guitarman
Different DVI DVD players will probably output different voltage though. This was with a Toshiba SD-5970.

The tosh has a high voltage bias similar to the Bravo D1, in other words it will push the brigh level at stock. Re-tuning with RGB is needed.

Next up a analog progressive scan player which should be more compatable re other players.

DVI doesn't rely on millivolts for output and technically shouldn't vary across players. Theoretically, anything using DVI and outputting the correct colorspace (Studio RGB) with proper colorspace conversion from YPbPr should provide identical image quality (ignoring differences in MPEG decoding quality and deinterlacing). The only reason DVI requires different settings for different players is because manufacturers don't implement it properly.

Depending on the player, analog outputs are much more susceptible to variances. That's why Secrets measures analog outputs.

Originally posted by scotthorton
Thirdkind: There has been nothing to indicate _any_ mechanical changes on the H79. I would be very ,very surprised if anything other than the logo was changed there, especially optics. Panning artifact seemed to be hit and miss on different H77's, I didn't see it on mine. Hopefully if I get an H79, I'll get lucky and get one of those without it, too.

I find it very difficult to believe that H77's vary in their susceptibility to panning. I know many claim not to see it, but in my experience, it's just like the rainbow effect. Many won't recognize it until it's pointed out to them.

Tom hinted at some changes to the optical path, which prompted me to make that post. I thought there might have been something done to improve the mechanical reliability of the lens shift and focus.

3rdkind, no one ever questioned the optics on the H77. Here read this review -
http://www.laaudiofile.com/h77.html

Optoma doesn't use plastic lenses like Benq, the lens shift focus and zoom work fine.

Good luck in the hunt. :)

"DVI doesn't rely on millivolts for output and technically shouldn't vary across players."

Output and biases vary like wildfire relating to displays also. With the H79 the Tosh pushes bright with a slight green bias. The Bravo just pushes bright. These act similar with the HT1000.

I've read that review several times.

I'm not talking about the lenses. I observed no chromatic aberrations, though I did have trouble with uneven focus as I mentioned.

I'm talking about the lens shift mechanism and how it's influenced by the focus mechanism. bdavidson even mentions this problem in his H77 review here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5184983#post5184983

The shift I experienced was more than a pixel or two, however.

You yourself made references to changes in the optics and I'd like to know what those changes are.

there may have been something wrong with your unit Thirdkind, as I've focused my H76 using the focus test pattern on my DVDO iScan and it looks good across the screen.

" adjusting the focus caused the lens to shift suddenly and by quite a bit. This was annoying while trying to get things set up. " -

I haven't had that problem either, and I use my H76 on two different sized screens - I use the power zoom and focus a lot!

I know what he's talking about but you can adjust the focus just fine. Infact I get it super detailed every time. H77 or H79.

Plus I just put up a 100IRE patten with the H79 and can see every pixel corner to corner and I'm not even shooting a perfectly aligned image due to setup restriction.

Hi Tom,

Did you check your color crush at 100 ire before adjusting your RGB contrast at 80? I found the Red contrast did not increase above 0 when at 100ire, so locked it when using CF to adjust it at 80ire. If you didn't check for red crush, there's a good chance your Red will run out above 90 and the greyscale tracking will show this.

What advantage did you get from adjusting the factury service menu settings over the advanced user ones, and what were the defaults?

Gary.

Funny you mentioned that Gary. I get a better picture not using the find your limiting color technique over using the brightness to set the green and then using the red and blue only to line up with the green at 6500k. Much more contrast at least with the Toshiba. The other way a was ready to return the Toshiba.

Originally posted by guitarman
"DVI doesn't rely on millivolts for output and technically shouldn't vary across players."

Output and biases vary like wildfire relating to displays also. With the H79 the Tosh pushes bright with a slight green bias. The Bravo just pushes bright. These act similar with the HT1000.
What you are seeing with the Bravo is the DVD player putting out the standard video levels (which is how things are stored on the DVD) and the HT1000 and Optoma expecting PC levels. The Bravo should be similar to the HD-TIVO, Comcast 6412, the HM-DH5U at default, and most consumer HDMI or DVI devices (except PCs). The Samsung DVD players being the one exception I know of. This is one reason that some displays (like Marantz) give you a selection for PC or video levels (usually something like Standard or Expand). Expanding video levels to PC levels tends to cause some banding because it can't be done linearly in 256 bit space, besides losing the below-black and above-white that the Bravo maintains.

--Darin

Tom,

Green is higher than red (and blue is higher than green), so if you increase red to match it at 80ire, it will run out above and you will not be at D65 above 80ire. Colour temp and contrast will be higher though. To keep D65 without reducing green, just add an FL-Day filter which I found optically corrected them perfectly, though it will dim the brightness around 11% IIRC.

I found I got better results doing that and adjusting green down at 30ire (when it didn't adjust all the other colors too) which resulted in a better CR as well.

What CR are you getting now? You should be getting a pretty good figure by not using red as the limiting color.

Gary.

Originally posted by darinp2
What you are seeing with the Bravo is the DVD player putting out the standard video levels (which is how things are stored on the DVD) and the HT1000 and Optoma expecting PC levels. The Bravo should be similar to the HD-TIVO, Comcast 6412, the HM-DH5U at default, and most consumer HDMI or DVI devices (except PCs). The Samsung DVD players being the one exception I know of. This is one reason that some displays (like Marantz) give you a selection for PC or video levels (usually something like Standard or Expand). Expanding video levels to PC levels tends to cause some banding because it can't be done linearly in 256 bit space, besides losing the below-black and above-white that the Bravo maintains.

--Darin

Another thing I noticed, I picked up a Bravo D2 last week intending to use it with the H79 and the output must be different from the D1. I got sparklies and horizontal line flashes with it. Not so with the D1 or Tosh. I'm not about to buy another cable to test so it's going to the Optoma RPTV, the TV has a PC/HD option.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
Tom,

Green is higher than red (and blue is higher than green), so if you increase red to match it at 80ire, it will run out above and you will not be at D65 above 80ire. Colour temp and contrast will be higher though. To keep D65 without reducing green, just add an FL-Day filter which I found optically corrected them perfectly, though it will dim the brightness around 11% IIRC.

I found I got better results doing that and adjusting green down at 30ire (when it didn't adjust all the other colors too) which resulted in a better CR as well.

What CR are you getting now? You should be getting a pretty good figure by not using red as the limiting color.

Gary.

Yes red is the limiting color, but I got such a great picture the second run after first setting the dithering to off and tuning the red and blue, leaving the green alone. Grayscale run looked good with a final gamma of 2.26. The image looks so good I don't want to mess with it and that's on the cheezy Toshiba. It looks way better than the Q50 analog setup. It's cleaner and brighter but still with excellent black.

Gamma looks good. Increasing the gamma on the H77/79 reduces the figure you see in CF.

Glad you got it looking good though. :)

Gary.

Alright - just ordered my H79 through Jason - YES! Should come mid next week if all goes well. Just in time for the Acadamy Awards.:cool:

A question to those with the H77/H79 - does the picture look best in the short throw, long throw or inbetween? I'll certainly experiment myself, but wanted some opinions from the actual users before I commit to the holes in the ceiling.

"...I got such a great picture the second run after first setting the dithering to off "

Jeez, all that moaning and all people needed to do was find the switch :)

Seriously, what is this?

Thanks

Originally posted by guitarman
3rdkind, no one ever questioned the optics on the H77. Here read this review -
http://www.laaudiofile.com/h77.html

Optoma doesn't use plastic lenses like Benq, the lens shift focus and zoom work fine.

Good luck in the hunt. :)

Stop making such absolute claims like 'they are fine' clearly he had a broken unit since it feels
and works fine on my machine but that doesn't mean it was ok on his. It seems a small part or batch had optic problems this is not so weird if you consider there is also a H57 batch that had optic problems and had to be replaced. I personally like the zoom and focus works fine for me the vertical lens shift does work a little strange compared to some other models. I personally feel the build is fine.

Daniel.

Yes sir! ok generally very fine. The items he mentioned my unit could do but I never had a problem focusing or seeing a clear pixeled image. One of the better points on the H77 & H79 is the optics.

Noah, just meant lowering the brightness first to the correct spot before doing a colorfacts run.

Originally posted by sotagear
Alright - just ordered my H79 through Jason - YES! Should come mid next week if all goes well. Just in time for the Acadamy Awards.:cool:

A question to those with the H77/H79 - does the picture look best in the short throw, long throw or inbetween? I'll certainly experiment myself, but wanted some opinions from the actual users before I commit to the holes in the ceiling.

That's great news. I'd tell what a treat you're in for but you already know that. My setup has the zoom some where in the middle area. Looks good!

Are there settings in the service menu that allow you to tweak the color decoder, or just the greyscale?

I have read through this whole thread and cannot find the answer to this. You have ColorFacts, what is the true "contrast ratio" and "lumens" produced by the H79?

Thanks,

-ftlee

Originally posted by thirdkind
Are there settings in the service menu that allow you to tweak the color decoder, or just the greyscale?

You can't change the decoder, the service color adjustments areas just covers grayscale.

Thirdkind, the optics of the H79 work the same way as the H77 re the focus and lens shift adjustment. Both my H77 and H79 can show good uniformity. Maybe your machine was bumped in shipping and the alignment got out. But anyway the focus and lens shift workings will be the same.

Originally posted by sotagear
A question to those with the H77/H79 - does the picture look best in the short throw, long throw or inbetween? I'll certainly experiment myself, but wanted some opinions from the actual users before I commit to the holes in the ceiling.

Someone mentioned thei H77 having a corner of their projected image appearing somewhat out of focus compared to the rest of the image - I think it was bottom left hand corner if the pj is the right way up. It was noticable when being used in long throw.

My H77 appears fine, but I have it closer to the screen in a shorter throw configuration, so try to check yours out before positioning. Use a pc if possible or at leat a good DVD test patern to make the focus more obvious.

Gary.

Originally posted by scotthorton
It may not be that straight forward IMO. I'm more interested in seeing raw fc (or Lux - metric) measurments and to know what the projector is set to display at what distance. i.e. 5fc @ 14' with PJ set at 100" diag screen size. Then we don't throw any conversion errors into the report.

Tom:

Gary is right. The range button on your meter will cycle through several ranges. You'll see the decimal point move and the x10 indicator come and go. Choose the range that will give the most decimal points. If the light is too bright the meter will display "L" I think saying it's range is exceeded, so back down one scale.

One thing that there is no doubt (in my mind) about it converting Luc to Fc, that's just SAE and metric units. To convert fc to Lux it's:
Lux = Fc * 10.76
Fc = Lux * .0929

So for my 300E measurments I had 5.69 Fc, and that = ~63 Lux

For your measurments, 19.95Fc @ 14' that woudl equal ~210 Lux at the same distance. And that would be very nice I think, even for a new bulb. If it dropped 50% with age it would still be double than what I measured.

So if you can, check your meter ranges via it's range button and give another shot to double check.

Thanks!
Scott

Sri Scott, I have the H79 back up now and I'll try again with the light meter.

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
Someone mentioned thei H77 having a corner of their projected image appearing somewhat out of focus compared to the rest of the image - I think it was bottom left hand corner if the pj is the right way up. It was noticable when being used in long throw.

My H77 appears fine, but I have it closer to the screen in a shorter throw configuration, so try to check yours out before positioning. Use a pc if possible or at leat a good DVD test patern to make the focus more obvious.

It would be odd for a short throw setup to have better focus/geometry than a long throw setup. Shorter throws spread the image over a larger area of the lens. The closer the image gets to the outer egdes of the lens, the more the surface of the lens curves, hence more distortion. Long throws utilize less of the lens surface.

A member by the name of tk sent me a PM asking about difficulties with focus in the lower left-hand corner. My H77 had general focus problems with the entire lower portion of the image, but it was worse in the lower left-hand corner.

I really want to give the H79 a shot, but the apparent build quality problems leave me a bit leary.

I agree with you, plus you get more contrast due to a tighter beam and more light returing to the viewer than off to the sides, but he had issues with focus with a long throw set-up and I don't with a short throw, so if it's an optics issue it's some other reason - possibly a misalignment or something. Was yours a long or short throw set-up?

Gary.

I had the projector mounted about 13.5' from an 80" wide screen (92" diagonal).

Mines about 12.5ft from an 84" wide screen, so not a great deal of difference. Does sound like a quality control thing I guess.

Gary.

Originally posted by guitarman
I gotta tell you again, I'm sitting here right now with all the curtians open (daylight) plus I have a light on 3' from the screen and the picture still has strong contrast. This machine must be more powerfull then I gave it credit for. I couldn't do this with the H77 or NEC HT1000.

I actually forgot about the brightmode on the projector until I read this. The H79 it is soooo bright on the normal setting. I turned on the brightmode and WOW, I almost needed to get a pair of sunglasses!

:cool:

SJ

Hey Scott, ok this is the high decimal for Ft lamberts 16.40. It must have changed from before due to the re-tune to 6500k with the Tosh/hdmi player. Still very high. I did a FTL a few feet from the lens with a black 7.5 pattern and got .03

was that 16.4 lux Tom or is that the calculated ft lamberts? Was the .03 taken from the same distance as the 16.4?

What width is your screen again?
Gary.

Originally posted by guitarman
Hey Scott, ok this is the high decimal for Ft lamberts 16.40. It must have changed from before due to the re-tune to 6500k with the Tosh/hdmi player. Still very high. I did a FTL a few feet from the lens with a black 7.5 pattern and got .03 You mean Fc (footcandles) right? That's what the meter reads, Fc or Lux. If Fc, that's a plenty decent reading, especially if calibrated I think.

Tom ..

I just got all my promo stuff from Optoma this morning. On spec they show the brightness over the H77 being 10% brighter. Is this indicitive of what you are seeing in the difference Tom?? I have to say that the people that have been newly hired at Optoma in my area are a delight to deal with. I am still deciding on a shootout for April but should have no trouble getting the H77 and H79 in the line up.

As far as the white case ... I wish manufacturers would go with black.. BenQ's 8720 looks good in white as well but I prefer the piece to be in black.. Why use the most reflective color on a HT piece? My experience has been that most people do wise up and darken the ceiling colors after a period of resisting to do so.

Robert

On a side note, Robert, any ETA for BenQ 8720 and 7700? (sorry for the hijack)

Measurement was straight ftcdles, 14' 92"widecreen/screen out of the way.

Checked again this morning in the dark, 17.25 ftcdles at the screen, Using the meter at the highest decimal point, which is the one just after the10x reading. Which is what I did last night. The extra numbers in the reading must be due to me closing my laptops LCD screen. I checked it several times and got the same number.

Originally posted by mandarax
Tom ..

I just got all my promo stuff from Optoma this morning. On spec they show the brightness over the H77 being 10% brighter.

From my viewing (with no measurements), it seems to more like 20% brighter than the H77 (on my 100" Firehawk). Blacks are incredible...

Robert, the H79 looks allot brighter from what I remember of day 1 with the H77. I'll get the H77 going and run a light meter test on a bulb that has 900hrs on it. The H79 has 61hrs right now.

I asked Optoma's engineer yesterday about the brightness, he said the mirrors on the chip are actually a little larger than the last chip. Which is why people were noticing a better fill. He said the larger area plus not losing light between the pixels is the reason it's brighter.

Originally posted by guitarman
Measurement was straight ftcdles, 14' 92"widecreen, 17.25 ftcdles Cool. That's triple the measurment I got on the other brand with the same meter at 14', but with a slightly wider (110") screen. Very nice indeed. Even at 50% dimming with age, it woudl presumably be brighter than the other unit I saw.

So by my (possibly incorrect) calculations:
Other PJ I measured meas 5.69fc, 204 lumens on my 110" (36ft2) screen

H79 with your setup:
Screen area 92"x52"=33ft2
17.25fc * 33ft2 = 570 lumens

Thanks for the report and double check. Numbers look good there.

Cheers,
Scott

[Quote]H79 with your setup:
Screen area 92"x52"=33ft2
17.25fc * 33ft2 = 570 lumens[\Quote]

570 lumens????? That is just over half of their 1000 lumens advertisment. Wonder if the contrast ratio number is off that much?

Frank

570 lumens????? That is just over half of their 1000 lumens advertisment. Wonder if the contrast ratio number is off that much Keep in mind here that my calcs are my best guess at understanding this and may be wrong. But what is not apparantly wrong is the Fc measurment. No room for calc errors there, it's just a light meter reading. And it was 3 times the reading I got off another DLP at the same distance, and not too much different projection width.

FYI Gary's calcs were different than mine. I'm not looking to compare mfgr specs, only popular PJ's. The other PJ was reputed to be bright but I didn't get that result. That, too may have been my fault and inability to adjust it properly, or some other problem. But in any event, Tom's reported meas. was 3 times as bright as the one I took with the same brand and model meter. There could be meter differences too, but I wouldn't think they would be drastic.

Originally posted by ftlee
[Quote]H79 with your setup:
Screen area 92"x52"=33ft2
17.25fc * 33ft2 = 570 lumens[\Quote]

570 lumens????? That is just over half of their 1000 lumens advertisment. Wonder if the contrast ratio number is off that much?

Frank

That's a huge calibrated brightness level. Most PJ's come in at the under 300 level, closer to 200. I think once I read 388 which must hv been the IF7200. I just hope my low reading is right. I couldn't get a reading at the screen, half way to the PJ I got .001 which was the first time the meter would read anything. Closer 3' from the lens I got .002 mostly but if I went a little closer it would go to .003

Originally posted by scotthorton
Keep in mind here that my calcs are my best guess at understanding this and may be wrong. But what is not apparantly wrong is the Fc measurment. No room for calc errors there, it's just a light meter reading. And it was 3 times the reading I got off another DLP at the same distance, and not too much different projection width.
The difference in screen size between 110" wide and 92" wide is that the bigger screen is 43% more area (or the smaller screen is 30% less area). If this is what you meant for widths it accounts for some of the difference, but not nearly all off it.

Originally posted by guitarman
That's a huge calibrated brightness level. Most PJ's come in at the under 300 level, closer to 200. I think once I read 388 which must hv been the IF7200. I just hope my low reading is right. I couldn't get a reading at the screen, half way to the PJ I got .001 which was the first time the meter would read anything. Closer 3' from the lens I got .002 mostly but if I went a little closer it would go to .003

Sounds like you may have to get very close to get a reasonable idea of CR. If you can, I would try going close enough to read about 0.005 and then measure 100 IRE from there also (then divide). If the 100 IRE saturates the meter, then you could measure "black" and 20 IRE from up that close. Then measure 20 IRE and 100 IRE at the screen. Then you would get the total CR just by multipling the 2 ratios:

CR = ( (20 IRE up close) / ("black up close) ) * ( (100 IRE at screen) / (20 IRE at screen)

Also, you may get more accuracy down low by switching to Lux on your meter instead of Fc. Then just use the Lux setting for all measurements if it works.

--Darin

Originally posted by darinp2
[B]The difference in screen size between 110" wide and 92" wide is that the bigger screen is 43% more area (or the smaller screen is 30% less area). If this is what you meant for widths it accounts for some of the difference, but not nearly all off it. Sorry, probably my fault. It's not 110" wide and 92" wide. Mine is 110" diag, Tom's is 106" diag (~92 wide). So the difference is between a 110", and a 106" and my square footage calcs were based on those sizes.

Originally posted by scotthorton
Sorry, probably my fault. I't not 110" wide and 92" wide. Mine is 110" diag, Toms is 106" diag (92 wide). So the difference is between a 110", and a 106" and my square footage calcs were based on those sizes. Thanks.

I think that people who have been around here a while mostly know that the vast majority of these projectors put out much less light after calibration than specs. I would consider 570 lumens to be pretty good for a projector like this, especially if it maintains good CR at that.

Tom,

Was your 17 Fc number with it in bright mode? In other words, was that white peaking option (or whatever it is called) on or off?

Thanks,
Darin

White peak off, econo lamp mode, tuned down contrast and black level, then did a grayscale tuning, rechecked the contrast and brights after the tuning and they stayed correctly. Really it's an excellent brightness level because again right now I got the curtains open and a light on 3' in front of the screen. Just amazing that the colors are still strong and not washed with this. Users that like low light in the background will have no problem.

Here's some very interesting info - I just got HT-mags latest edition and Geof Morrison tests four hot projectors.

1. Mits HC900, 84" wide mat white, 100IRE 8.401ftl, black IRE 0.005, CR on/off 1680.1, Ansi CR (black & white boxes) 417.1

2. Panasonic AE700 100IRE 13.5ftl, black 0.019, on/off 711.1, ansi 161.1

3. Sony HS51 100IRE 7.701ftl, black 0.003, on/off 2567.1, ansi 162.1 (pay notice to ansi.

4. Yamaha DPX-1100 100IRE 9.351, black 0.002, on/off 4675.1, ansi 510.1

Ok re ANSI, I always thought the IRIS concept isn't an accurate way to get true better contrast. Mainly because yes you can measure a closed Iris for black and it will be low and than an opened IRIS at 100IRE and it will be high. But it can't be at both places at the same time. Therefore the ANSI differences, Note the DLP's can do better.

Originally posted by guitarman
Here's some very interesting info - I just got HT-mags latest edition and Geof Morrison tests four hot projectors.

1. Mits HC900, 84" wide mat white, 100IRE 8.401ftl, black IRE 0.005, CR on/off 1680.1, Ansi CR (black & white boxes) 417.1

2. Panasonic AE700 100IRE 13.5ftl, black 0.019, on/off 711.1, ansi 161.1

3. Sony HS51 100IRE 7.701ftl, black 0.003, on/off 2567.1, ansi 162.1 (pay notice to ansi.

4. Yamaha DPX-1100 100IRE 9.351, black 0.002, on/off 4675.1, ansi 510.1

Ok re ANSI, I always thought the IRIS concept isn't an accurate way to get true better contrast. Mainly because yes you can measure a closed Iris for black and it will be low and than an opened IRIS at 100IRE and it will be high. But it can't be at both places at the same time. Therefore the ANSI differences, Note the DLP's can do better.
The ANSI CR is the checkerboard or white and black and really doesn't relate to the iris changes you mentioned. And nobody measures 100 IRE with the iris open and 0 IRE with the iris closed. They would get completely trashed if they did that (and Sharp could have claimed more than 12000:1). The on/off CR numbers mentioned are at a fixed iris position. It comes at lower lumens, but it is real CR.

As far as that 4675:1 number, I don't believe it. He has exactly one significant digit in his black level reading (0.002) and gives us 4 significant digits in the final number. This is completely invalid. A 9.351 to 0.002 ratio basically gives a range of 3100:1 to 9400:1, since the least significant digit is basically + or - 0.001 in the black level reading. And given that even Yamaha only rates the projector at 4000:1 I would say that the actual number is closer to the 3100:1 end. I've mentioned before that as CR numbers go up those who continue to take readings off screens at normal image sizes will get very inaccurate numbers. I bet this is a case of that.

--Darin

I wondered if he aims the Minolta at the screen. I'll see what he got with the 12k, that ought to give us a better idea. He probably used the same method with each.

I think the Infocus 7205 gets very close to their published specs. Isn't it 890 lumens calibrated? Anyone know what the 300E is getting?

Frank

Originally posted by guitarman
I wondered if he aims the Minolta at the screen. I'll see what he got with the 12k, that ought to give us a better idea. He probably used the same method with each.
I think he was pretty close with the 12k. But when you use a method that is faulty you always have a chance of coming close. Especially if you measure, get a number that doesn't make sense, and measure again until one does. It doesn't mean it is accurate though. I believe he uses the Minolta LS100 off the screen.

It is also possible that Yamaha claims 4000:1 with white peaking on, but actually delivers 4675:1 with white peaking off after calibration. Highly unlikely IMO, though.

If your H79 is around 3000:1 after calibration with white peaking off I would consider that very good at the lumens you are getting.

--Darin

Grubert..... I have been given dates for the releases of the BenQ 8720, and the 7700 .... however the source is conflicting with other information received so have decided to not I do a large annual shootout and it is usually in the beginning of April... I don't think I am going to have a problem attaining the Optoma line up for the shootout and will most certainly want to get the BenQ lineup as a direct comparison. I saw the 7700 at CES but it was in a room with their rptv... so it was hard to discern what it looked like or would look like in a better environment. In any event this BQ info does not really belong in this thread..

Robert

"Sounds like you may have to get very close to get a reasonable idea of CR. If you can, I would try going close enough to read about 0.005 and then measure 100 IRE from there also (then divide). If the 100 IRE saturates the meter, then you could measure "black" and 20 IRE from up that close. Then measure 20 IRE and 100 IRE at the screen. Then you would get the total CR just by multipling the 2 ratios:

CR = ( (20 IRE up close) / ("black up close) ) * ( (100 IRE at screen) / (20 IRE at screen)

Also, you may get more accuracy down low by switching to Lux on your meter instead of Fc. Then just use the Lux setting for all measurements if it works."

I give it a try but do think the 100IRE will be way high at those closer levels. Since I already got .003 a few feet away, if at that point I can get a 100IRE reading and it's way higher, it should be a pretty high cr reading. Back to wait until dark.

Guitarman:

I don't mean to be bitchy or rude. I don't enjoy forum flame wars, but I would really like to know something. Have you entered into an agreement with Optoma, AVS, or some other third party NOT to post objective data regarding the H79's CR? You have now had this PJ for 10 days. You have all the necessary equipment. You have posted numerous (pretty but useless) screenshots, color and gamma data, and now CR data (measured by others) for OTHER PJs, but you still have not provided this rather basic and critical information for the PJ you presumably set out to "review."

If this information is buried somewhere in this now very long thread and I simply missed it, then I apologize. Otherwise, would you please post this data immediately or at least explain to the readers of this thread why you are either unable or unwilling to do so?

darinp2

How does the staged measure work - isn't the gamma going to pollute the numbers?

guitarman
If this meter is working out - can you PM me WTB? Would like something cheap to double check the Spyder!

TomHuffman
give guitarman the benefit of the doubt on this one - some of us had calibration equipment for years - and you can see we are still trying to figure out how to measure high contrast accurately.

Calibrated numbers are important for knowing how to do a proper setup - but one only needs to read the review magazines to know that nearly every manufacturer is cheating the numbers to be as large as they can. Some people are happy watching blue color temps with vivid gammas - and for them they get the advertised numbers.


If you could get Alan Gouger to provide the brightness/contrast numbers in his Sim2 review that he raved about - then that would be good as well!

Yes Tom must hv missed the fact that we're trying to figure the best way to use the light meter. It's in the last few pages. At least I got the brightness reading for a 92" widescreen at 14'away, it's pretty bright. :) This is the light meter the the Smart guy uses. It's good point is it reads very low and has a 3% x/- error factor.

If this meter is working out - can you PM me WTB? Would like something cheap to double check the Spyder! kras: I hunted quite a bit never did find it any cheaper new. www.davis.com has an assortment of them. The one I (and Tom) have is the long, slender one. About $119 new everywhere.

Hi Tom,

I calculated my own numbers from your figures and they concur with Scotts, so hopefully we're both right. :)

Are you sure that's in low lamp mode though? I was getting 510 in high lamp and 389 in low lamp mode in calibrated conditions.

You did say that you didn't use red as your limiting color, so that may explain why you have higher lumens - you will have a higher overall contrast setting. You should also have a much better contrast ratio because of it.

If so your 570 is a little over 10% better if it was high lamp, and over 30% if it was low lamp. How many hours on the lamp? My readings were at around 60 hours IIRC. They're pretty impressive figures if accurate - the low lamp mode is higher than the H77 high lamp mode.

If you take readings using lux, and multiply by the screens area in square meters (3.07) then you will end up with Lumens (multiply by the screens gain if it has any). Divide the lumens by the screens area in square feet, and you will get ft lamberts.

Gary.

"...the mirrors on the chip are actually a little larger than the last chip. Which is why people were noticing a better fill. He said the larger area plus not losing light between the pixels is the reason it's brighter."

Fill factor was already better than 90%, I don't see how making them very slightly bigger could have a discernible effect on brightness.

Seems like the lower hour lamp will explain most or all of the brightness difference.

Seems like the lower hour lamp will explain most or all of the brightness difference. What lower hr lamp? DId I miss that tidbit in the new specs? Not 3000 anymore?

Originally posted by Gary Lightfoot
Hi Tom,

I calculated my own numbers from your figures and they concur with Scotts, so hopefully we're both right. :)

Are you sure that's in low lamp mode though? I was getting 510 in high lamp and 389 in low lamp mode in calibrated conditions.

You did say that you didn't use red as your limiting color, so that may explain why you have higher lumens - you will have a higher overall contrast setting. You should also have a much better contrast ratio because of it.

If so your 570 is a little over 10% better if it was high lamp, and over 30% if it was low lamp. How many hours on the lamp? My readings were at around 60 hours IIRC. They're pretty impressive figures if accurate - the low lamp mode is higher than the H77 high lamp mode.

If you take readings using lux, and multiply by the screens area in square meters (3.07) then you will end up with Lumens (multiply by the screens gain if it has any). Divide the lumens by the screens area in square feet, and you will get ft lamberts.

Gary.

First Kras the meter is an Extech 403125.

Gary, right that's with the recent re-tune not using red as a limiting color. Definetly In econo, 60hrs on the bulb. The contrast does look way better from using the other method. Plus the gamma was better 2.26 I think. Which is why I didn't want to mess with it. Looks perfect right now.

Originally posted by noah katz
"...the mirrors on the chip are actually a little larger than the last chip. Which is why people were noticing a better fill. He said the larger area plus not losing light between the pixels is the reason it's brighter."

Fill factor was already better than 90%, I don't see how making them very slightly bigger could have a discernible effect on brightness.

Seems like the lower hour lamp will explain most or all of the brightness difference.

Hi,
I don't build them but Wing does and he has all the facts from going to Ti's factory. I don't think he's making it up.

we're trying to figure the best way to use the light meter

OK, but gee I guess I don't understand why all the Sturm and Drang about this. ColorFacts has a wizard for this. Just aim the trichomat well, place it close enough to get a reasonably high black level reading, and then run the wizard. Even if the meter is off (the ColorFacts forum suggests that it overstates luminance by about 10%), since CR is a RATIO, I don't see how this matters. I whatever the error, it would appear for black as well as full on white. I've read quite a bit about the Trichomat being an unreliable device to measure color at low light levels, but a good CR number does not depend upon a precise color measurement.

Are you guys saying that the Trichomat's Foot Lambert reading is so wildy inaccurate (a variance of greater than say +- 10%) that it's totally useless for CR measurments? If you are, then Mark Hunter needs to know about this.

I'l quote JimmyR's reply to me.

"You can't get an accurate CR reading with a colormeter from colorfacts!"

Something like that. Looks like we got a pretty good light meter going. I just have to try Darin's tip of getting both readings at the same distance. Probably tonight when the sun goes down.

Originally posted by vjren
Given the fact that temporal dithering is still an issue for some. I'd like to know how the H79 does the pan in the begining scene from fith element where the boy comes in and the pan starts over the column. The letter in the column are breaking apart there on many projectors. (Mitsubishi has it covered, as Li-on determined, they somehow managed to fix it! (HC900 HC2000) )

Another sequence is the opening menu of MIB-II right after you press play. The colums moves to the right breakes apart from temporal dithering.

So guitarman or other H79 early adopter, is there any difference there, how does it look?


The problem you mention mitsubishi fixed is the clay face problem with PAL unit? What about panning probleme? Any of them on the HC2000 or the were able to fix it?

Bruno

Tom, re: CR check after dark... There you go. I think you'll find you won't saturate that meter.

Set it to it's lowest scale (2 decimal places). Move it around until you get a decent reading at 0 IRE. Now, wherever that is, find something to mount the business end of your meter. That plug in box on top with the sensor comes loose if you didn't know already, the "feet" plugged into the meter body are just a holder. Now, with it mounted or stable in your location, take another dark reading at 0 IRE. Now put up 100IRE. Take a reading from your meter. You will have to change the range until you ge t a reading. As always, the lowest range you can get (most decimal points). If you hit that last range, you add a zero to the reading (x10 in the display).

Now you've got your 2 accurate numbers for the on-off CR. What's important is to have the meter head still when and between taking the 2 readings. That's why it's good to disconnect it from the handle so you don't move it when changing the ranges with the button.

Also, just to be sure, your meter should have a little tiny white diffuser disc in the sensor. When you remove the lens cap, and look into it you shoudl see white. It's about 1/4 to 3/8" in diameter. It does come out and will give higher readings if not there, so you want to be sure you have it in.

HTH,
Scott

I velcro my lightmeter 'head' to my CF sensor plate which is tripod mounted so that it's in the same area. It holds it still and is easily attached/removed.

Gary,

It's got the white cap. The 100IRE was steadied good. But I was moving around trying to get the first low reading which was half way to the PJ. I got the way to find the highest decimal, it's just after the 10x spot. This I used this morning 5am/dark. It's the reading that gives you the most numbers four it was 17.25. The other spots give a similar number just deleting the right figures though. Like 17 instead of 17.25.

One thing, I could get a higher than 17.25 if I raised the meter up a foot or so higher in the area where the screen was. I got up near 19.00, but I figured I needed to be dead center.

Originally posted by guitarman
I give it a try but do think the 100IRE will be way high at those closer levels. Since I already got .003 a few feet away, if at that point I can get a 100IRE reading and it's way higher, it should be a pretty high cr reading. Back to wait until dark. The problem with .003 is it is basically 30% error either direction (since the last significant digit is usually + or - one). I figured .005 was more reasonable if you could do it.
Originally posted by krasmuzik
How does the staged measure work - isn't the gamma going to pollute the numbers?
I haven't really felt the need to do it because my lightmeter seems to work pretty well for most of the CRs I've measured just by getting it fairly close to the projector. I did try it once and I think it came out pretty good. The gamma shouldn't make any difference though. All it relies on is that 20 IRE doesn't move and as long as you don't change the gamma between measurements (changing anything on the projector between measurements is of course forbidden) then the gamma shouldn't matter. 20 IRE was just an example I threw out because with a good 2.2 gamma the 100 IRE to 20 IRE ratio should be under 100:1 (I believe somewhere around 50:1 give or take). I would think that meter would have an accurate range that was at least 200:1. Which would put the limits of measurement at well over 10k:1 with 2 sets of readings carefully done to be within the accurate range.
Originally posted by TomHuffman
Even if the meter is off (the ColorFacts forum suggests that it overstates luminance by about 10%), since CR is a RATIO, I don't see how this matters. I whatever the error, it would appear for black as well as full on white. I've read quite a bit about the Trichomat being an unreliable device to measure color at low light levels, but a good CR number does not depend upon a precise color measurement.

Are you guys saying that the Trichomat's Foot Lambert reading is so wildy inaccurate (a variance of greater than say +- 10%) that it's totally useless for CR measurments? If you are, then Mark Hunter needs to know about this.
A meter can be off by 10% at 100 IRE and close to 100% off at 0 (or 7.5) IRE. The EyeBeamer (or EyeOne) is horrible for on/off CR. The Trichromat isn't bad. Mark Hunter knows this. I don't think Tom has a Trichromat though. If he did, I would suggest using that at maybe 6 ft from the projector after doing a black reading with the meter completely covered (on the floor or something).

EDIT: I looked back and looks like my memory is wrong. Tom does have a Trichromat. So, here is what I would suggest. Put the sensor on the floor or a table with a dark towel over it. Take a dark reading. Set it up maybe 6 to 8 feet from the projector. Make sure it is centered on the screen with the colorfacts background being the 0% black (so it isn't getting a ton of light right before it tries to take a "black" reading). Run the Colorfacts CR wizard. Tell us the number. Repeat later and see if you still get close to the same number. Maybe even from a different distance. You can try that other meter too, but I think .003 just has too much error built into it (it could really be .0026 or .0034 and you see .003).

--Darin

One thing, I could get a higher than 17.25 if I raised the meter up a foot or so higher in the area where the screen was. I got up near 19.00, but I figured I needed to be dead center. Shouldn't matter in my opinion for this ratio measurment. As long as you don't move it between measurments, and it's pointing on-axis to the lens ("looking" straignt toward the lens).

I've been using a black DVD case drapped on the Tri-chromat with a Black IRE to cut down light. maybe I should stuff it under a couch cushion. :)

I've heard the sensor is off at the high readings and I can train it with the one-eye. Another thing I have to do.

darinp2,

Your trichromat meter even though it may display a value down to 0.001 does not mean that the data is reliable ! The trichromat can not read light levels accurately below approximately .07 fL which is substantially higher then what most of the users are reporting on this thread. For you to be able to get a value that is meaningful for CR you need to place the fixtured probe in a closer proximity to the light source so that your Black level reading is higher then .1 fL (the higher the better). As long as your peak White is not putting the probe into saturation (overload) then you are in good shape and the CR value obtained will be much closer to being a valid number.

You can probably take the reading from about 2-3 feet from the lens and get a fairly accurate reading without going into saturation.

Cliff

Originally posted by ghibliss
Your trichromat meter even though it may display a value down to 0.001 does not mean that the data is reliable !
Where did I say it did?

The trichromat can not read light levels accurately below approximately .07 fL which is substantially higher then what most of the users are reporting on this thread.
What equipment did you use to find this point?

I always move the Trichromat closer to the projector, but I have not found that I need to go to 2-3 feet from the projector to get results that agree pretty well with other measurement devices (CA813 and Minolta LS110 lightmeters). I've of course used those at higher levels (closer to the projector for the CA813 and by putting the projector and screen close together for reading off the screen with the LS110) and not all the way at the screen as I have explained many times.

If the Trichromat needs .07 ft-lamberts for any CR accuracy then the EyeOne must need 1 ft-lambert. :)

--Darin

Guitarman:

You can't get an accurate CR reading with a colormeter from colorfacts

JimmyR gave you some bogus information. In fact, there's been a lot of careless talk about what ColorFacts can and cannot do. As Darin points out, using the Trichomat, ColorFacts offers quite reliable light readings. You have the Trichomat and a neat wizard. For Christ sakes, use the tool you have and stop agonizing over this. This is not rocket science. Just be sure to do your dark reading first and then get a good aim point. You can use the Continuous reading mode with the Luminance instrument. Put the Trichomat on a tripod facing an 80 IRE window and adjust it until you get the highest light reading. That's your aim point. Now just run the wizard. The whole process takes maybe 10 minutes.

I thought I'd provide some real data to the black hole that is this highly speculative thread. I took a CR reading with the meter approximately 5 feet away from the lens of my HS20. Here's the result:

http://home.earthlink.net/~tlhuffman/ht/Image1.jpg

Then I took another reading with the meter approximately 10 feet away. Here's what I got:

http://home.earthlink.net/~tlhuffman/ht/Image2.jpg

As you can see the result is almost identical. So, no you don't have to have a black reading above 0.07 to get reliable results. And no you don't have to set up any fancy Rube Goldberg device for channeling the light. And, no you don't need an extra light meter. Just use the product as designed and it works fine.

One thing I learned from this exercize is that my PJ is steadily loosing light output and CR. This is no great surprise, but it's annoying to have the numbers stare you in the face.

Now, in the name of all that's holy, would you PLEASE run the CR wizard on this PJ and report the number?

Originally posted by guitarman
Hi,
I don't build them but Wing does and he has all the facts from going to Ti's factory. I don't think he's making it up.

Assume your contact is Wing Chung who is the Product Engineering Manager at Optoma. He would seem to be the one who should know....
SJ

"Everybody have fun tonight....Everybody Wing Chung tonight..."

Wow, that was a great '80's tune wasn't it? Oh no, that was "Wang Chung", not "Wing Chung";):D!!! (Sorry, couldn't resist :rolleyes: )

I missed my window of opportunity, but did mess around with testing this morning. I can get things pretty dark when daylight comes but can still see around the rooms so light is in the area.

Ok the light meter I found a spot where it didn't max out, it's about 5 feet away from the lens. I steadied the meter with the tripod and Trichromat mount. I got steady reading of

100IRE 16.70
Black .001

I couldn't move the setup any close without white maxing out, at least at the 5ft distance I could read both. I think that's what's wanted two light readings at the same spot.


Here's what the wizard came up with using th Tri-chromat.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h79trichromatcr.jpg

I try it again sometime at night without the kitchen and dining rooms windows daylight. The sensors are facing that way. I'll probably get a better low light reading. Not bad for the situation though, low read 0.347

The Trichomat reading of 2710:1 sounds about right. You might get a little better reading once the sun goes down.

On the other hand, the light meter reading of 16,700:1 is ridiculous. Don't know what's going on there.

Thanks for the info.

Originally posted by SJHT
Assume your contact is Wing Chung who is the Product Engineering Manager at Optoma. He would seem to be the one who should know....
SJ

One in the same. Wing is in Taiwan again right now, no questions for a couple of weeks. He's been a great help to me always friendly and eager to answer questions.

Originally posted by TomHuffman
The Trichomat reading of 2710:1 sounds about right. You might get a little better reading once the sun goes down.

On the other hand, the light meter reading of 16,700:1 is ridiculous. Don't know what's going on there.

Thanks for the info.

It's the low reading. I did better when I had the meter closer and got .003 or .002 but then I couldn't get the white reading that close.

Tom, I know advanced adjustments of color temp, RGB contrast and brightness are available under "Image" through the standard menu, but do you have access to the service menu? Or is there nothing in the service menu an ISF service person would need?

I'm getting a H79 next week and after doing some calibration will post what I can.

Dan

Tom,

Can you post what the lumens and contrast ratio numbers are for the high-lamp mode with the white peaking turned off.

Thanks!

Frank T. Lee

I was trying out my CF after training it against a friends eye-one, and got similar results to Toms - the closer I moved the meter, the higher the CR reading was. :)

I could get a consistent 2600:1 with the light meter though.

Gary.

Tom,

Is that 2710:1 read with perfect D65 calibration?

Thank you.
Nacho.

P.D.: Now I would like to get from you the H31 Contrast Ratio :D

Originally posted by drapp1952
Tom, I know advanced adjustments of color temp, RGB contrast and brightness are available under "Image" through the standard menu, but do you have access to the service menu? Or is there nothing in the service menu an ISF service person would need?

I'm getting a H79 next week and after doing some calibration will post what I can.

Dan

Not sure of the button names but looking from the back to the front top, the four buttons in a row you hit the left two and the far right one at the same time.
In there theres, ADC for progressive scans this one puts a small set of RGB's up in the far left corner out of the way, but ADC will alter the next set of RGB's up which is in there and called Picture. There's more under DLP but these are usually set flat and the same on all the projectors.

I was told they all work off different electronics in the chain line. Me I left them alone and user the Image RGB's deleting the centered up menu for each change. Slows you down a bit though. If you try the ADC of course write down the stock numbers for ADC, DLP, Picture, Picture will be different for each signal, not sure about ADC it may stay the same, DLP will stay the same.

Originally posted by nachin
Tom,

Is that 2710:1 read with perfect D65 calibration?

Thank you.
Nacho.

P.D.: Now I would like to get from you the H31 Contrast Ratio :D

Yes I pre calibrated to 6500k and got a 2.26 gamma I believe. That figure should go higher when I take a low reading at night. Curtains were drawn but there was a decent amount of daylight in the back rooms. Plus the sensor was aiming that way toward the projector lens.

Originally posted by ftlee
Can you post what the lumens and contrast ratio numbers are for the high-lamp mode with the white peaking turned off.

If the CR changes much at all when you go from low lamp mode to high lamp mode it is a pretty good indication that there is something wrong with your measurements. The only thing that should change CR here at all is a different color balance from the bulb, since CR is a ratio and even if you made the bulb twice as bright the ratio between 100% and 0% should be the same.

--Darin

I've been lurking on this thread fascinated at the large amount of effort being spent trying to get this idea of an ideal measurement of CR which to my mind has very little to do with real world conditions. I think the important task is to determine the level of whites in high key scenes with no white compression vs. the level of blacks in low key scenes with no black compression.

Here are two jpeg files to use when making this CR measurement. One is a high key TP with gray-scales ranging from 80-100% white in 5% steps. The other is a low key TP with gray-scales ranging from 0% to 20% white also in 5% steps. The key to using these charts is having a spot brightness meter to measure the center brightness of each chart, plus setting the projector controls to insure all steps are visible. It is possible that I selected too large increments for the chips, but I'd like to have your feedback on this technique.

I couldn't figure how to attach more than one file at a time:

Those are Ftcl readings from the light meter. I could get a steady 4.50 very close to the lens but no high readings till I backed up. I use blackout curtains in the main room and double curtains in the adjoining rooms so it's really not very bright in day for testing. But there's some light. I'll see if I can get the low reading down in pitch black enviroment next time.
Anyway the H79 is the brightest projector I've seen so far, thankfully the black level is still good.

barrysb

The idea is not to invent a new measurement - but verify it against the marketed on/off measurement.

If you can find the setting that achieves the marketed measurement - then maybe it can be optically filtered to correct the greyscale - rather than losing contrast to digital correction.

Originally posted by barrysb
I've been lurking on this thread fascinated at the large amount of effort being spent trying to get this idea of an ideal measurement of CR which to my mind has very little to do with real world conditions.
I'm not sure why you would say on/off CR has little to do with real world conditions. You could probably go into a room or closet in your place with no visible light right now and this will give you an idea of how realistically the projector could do that. If you want to know how much CR you can see in real life, take a look at page 3 here (http://www.wmin.ac.uk/itrg/IS/DPI/SI/SI_lecture1.pdf).

It is possible that I selected too large increments for the chips, but I'd like to have your feedback on this technique.
This just looks like a test that is in between the ANSI CR test and the on/off CR test, since there is some washout from brighter parts of the image when you put more than just an all 0% screen up. I don't think it is a bad test, but it doesn't tell you as much about how realistically the projector can do blackout scenes as the on/off CR test does. Seems a lot like the 1% ANSI CR test I proposed, although I wasn't suggesting replacing either the on/off CR test or the standard ANSI CR test with it.

If you want to know how the shadow detail is you can use a test image for that, but I don't see any need to use that same test image for doing the on/off CR test (especially since it is no longer the on/off CR test).

Given that we are talking about a super high ANSI CR projector here (a single chip DLP) that isn't super high on/off your test wouldn't actually be much different than the correct on/off CR test, but that wouldn't be true on all projectors. So, if you want to compare them with numbers you would have to get everybody to stop testing full screen 0% and start testing with a greyscale on much of the screen (and you would no longer get some information you get now).

--Darin

Since it is what effects shadow detail, do we know what the ANSI CR is of the H79?

krasmuzik,

Do you know what the ANSI CR is for the IF7205?

Thanks,

Frank T. Lee

P.S. I am trying to decide if it is worth selling my new 7205 and upgrade to the H79...

ftlee

SP7205 measures are in my review in my .sig

If you turn on white peaking you get marketed contrast ~2200:1 - with it off you get half marketed ~1100:1

But if you turn on white peaking you get twice marketed brightness (1800 lumens) - without it you get over marketed brightness. (1100 lumens) (spec is 880 in low power lamp)

Sounds like the H79 is maybe half the marketed brightness without white peaking and in film mode - but is higher contrast tha

Bottom line I would not do a SP7205 upgrade to a H79 without also upgrading to a higher gain screen. While it's high power rating is the same as the SP7205 low power rating - you cannot compare since Infocus gives calibrated rating - Optoma does not. (Which is why the interest in calibrated results in this thread!)

While I have measured ANSI contrast - it is not relative to the projector as I am really measuring the room. Every room is different. You would have to hide under black velvet to get a proper ANSI contrast measure.

ON/OFF contrast is independent of the room (assuming no other light source)

I measured 2800:1 contrast ratio on the H77 at D65. I used the extech light meter that came with Smart3 calibration set.

Originally posted by guitarman
Those are Ftcl readings from the light meter. I could get a steady 4.50 very close to the lens but no high readings till I backed up.
Tom,

It sounds to me like your chances of getting an accurate CR with that light meter with one pass as slim to none. You may want to try the trick of measuring 100 IRE and 20 IRE at the screen and then 20 IRE and 0 (or 7.5) IRE close to the projector. I don't think that meter has enough range for one pass (since it saturates at the top when the black reading still isn't within reasonable accuracy). Then it might be interesting to compare the 2 pass measurements with what Colorfacts gives with the Trichromat. If you just gave us the 4 readings for 100 IRE, 20 IRE, 20 IRE, and 0 IRE (with the first two and the screen and the 2nd two near the projector) we could tell you what that meant for CR.

Just make sure that your 0 IRE reading with the light meter isn't too low (readings of 0.001 tell you close to nothing because your error could be bigger than your reading).

--Darin

I hope to get the time tonight. The key thing I learned is to smother the light for the dark reading. Flopping the DVD case over the meter didn't cut it.

Tom,

You said that you didn't use red as your limiting color, so you won't be at D65 above 80ire. That's why I suggested earlier that you will get a higher contrast reading and that's what you appear to have attained.

bgosselin,

What are your settings for D65? I only managed 2600:1 using a filter to color correct to D65 more so than the projectors digital RGB adjustments, so I'm curious to how you attained that figure, since in theory, you shouldn't be able to attain the same figure digitaly as I did optically.

Gary.

While it's high power rating is the same as the SP7205 low power rating - you cannot compare since Infocus gives calibrated rating - Optoma does not.

krasmuzik,

I do not understand. Tom has indicated that the H79 has an on/off CR of 27xx:1 with the projector calibrated for D65 and white peaking turned off. Someone else indicated that you get this number whether or not you are using the high-lamp mode or econo-mode. The IF7205 gets 11xx:1 on/off CR with the same setup.

It sounds to me like the H79 would give you superior shadow details than what the IF7205 (also 7210) provides. Also, I run the IF7205 in econo-mode so, I could run the H79 in the same mode and get the same brightness and much better shadow details. What am I missing...

Thanks,

Frank T. Lee

Originally posted by bgosselin
I measured 2800:1 contrast ratio on the H77 at D65. I used the extech light meter that came with Smart3 calibration set.

With your extech how close can you be facing the PJ to get a 100IRE reading?

ftlee

I am talking about lumens not contrast. Lumens is what you use to determine screen size/gain and is the most important setup measure.

Guitarmans contrast was higher than the others because he is only D65 up to 80IRE, above that he is cyan pushed (red limited) for more contrast.

Still Optoma contrast is higher than Infocus - Infocus brightness is higher than Optoma. You will have to run the numbers and see if it will retrofit without a screen upgrade.

What you are missing is that Optoma marketed lumens is not same as calibrated lumens as with Infocus. Earlier in the thread others have mentioned around 500 lumens - significantly less than marketed.

If you want to run a projector uncalibrated in the bright mode - you would be better of buying a business projector - more lumens per pixel per dollar.

Originally posted by guitarman
With your extech how close can you be facing the PJ to get a 100IRE reading? Tom: You do have your scale set to "x10" when doing the 100 measurment, right? Your number posted didn't reflect it. That number won't have any decimals in it at all IIRC. I think this thing will read sunlight just about on it's highest range. You take the 0IRE at 0.00 range and the 100 IRE at x10 range. If you are doing that already, nevermind.

I don't remember having any problem taking this measurment before when I had my H77, wich I had one to play with now.

Tom,

If you have your meter up this evening, can you please, please, please, post what the lumens and contrast ratio numbers are for the high-lamp mode with the white peaking turned off.

Thanks!

Frank

"Guitarmans contrast was higher than the others because he is only D65 up to 80IRE, above that he is cyan pushed (red limited) for more contrast."

That was the last time I ran a quick grayscale and just used 40 and 80 and got a gamma or 2.46.

This last time I took my time and went thru each IRE 30 to 100 and got a gamma of 2.26. Plus there were no trail offs in the 6500k reading like the last time. Brightness when you have a 100IRE pattern up it's so blaring bright it sears a 16.9 image into your retina. I think we established it's 3 times brighter than a competitor machine. More testing in the dark is needed.

Tom, approx 4ft from the lens should be OK, and use the Lux setting before the x10 setting. Use the decimal setting for the black reading. You should be in the range of 0.15 to 0.40 depending on how far you are from the pj for the black reading.

ftlee, on the H77 I was getting around 200 lux on my screen which is around 510 lumens from the H77 in high lamp mode (about 12ft away). The H79 should be a bit better I would think.

Gary.

No Scott I used the setting after 10x, that must be it. thx