Sony KDF-55/60XS955 owners thread [Text View]

MacAttack1970

02-12-05, 12:24 PM

I just got my 55XS955 delivered on Thursday. I did not have any HD material other than DVDs. First off, this TV is AWESOME. Retail stores do no justice for how good this TV really is. Below are my few findings thus far.

1. I calibrated the set witht he Avia disc. This was simple, but still needed a little tweaking watching on different signals.

2. DVDs look great. I have an older Toshiba progressive scan DVD player. Alien, Van Helsing look great. I only use my copied DVDs, so there is a compression on them (I like keeing the originals pristine). Still, no issues viewing them on the set.

3. XBox (TW 2005) looked great until the wife yelled at me saying that the XBox was going to the bonus room. I have to work on that issue.

4. Black Levels. I see no issue with black crush, blacks looking grey. The blacks on Alien were very detailed and sharp. I watched some movie on HBO with Chris Rock and Bernie Mack. The black detail was incredible. It even separated the pin-striping on the suits.

5. SD material is very acceptable. I don't see too many issues on newer programming. On older shows with older technology cameras, there are artifacts. I noticed this when I turned the TV on this morning and saw (don't laugh) Little House on the Prairie (it was on the channel the tv was turned off to). You could see some fuzzies all around the people. All of the current SD pictures have no problem.

6. HD programming is incredible PERIOD. I have each of the HD channels on the favorites button. The details of those jungle scenes on DiscoveryHD is nuts. Ultimate Fighting Championship on INHD looked great. Arena footballl had no motion delays or skips in the scene. This was a concern from other posts that I have scene.

7. The speaker system is more than adequate. If you do not have a surround sound system, they are good enough until you can get one. I do not have mine yet because it is going to take some working and design decisions. The system has to go through the Wife Test. So, I am stuck between in-wall speakers or finding something that is eye-candy to her. Not an easy task.

The only bad thing I can say about this set is there is no marketing that says to stop looking at other sets and just get the damn thing. All of the time I wasted going back and forth between other sets was a complete waste of my time. Anyone getting this set will have no regrets. I am sure this is the same on many sets, but for those people looking at getting feedback, I listed it here.

JohnA

02-12-05, 12:55 PM

Have had my 55XS for 3 weeks now. I still am totally blown away by the crisp, bright picture with HD material. I upgraded from the Sony 40xbr HD tube TV. I was always a tube snob thinking nothing could beat the picture quality, but guess what, I was wrong! The extra picture adjustments are great. In particular the gamma corrector is a wonderful feature to further define contrast without increasing brightness.

And I like this separate XS thread. Drills down to a point where most all posts are relevant to my equipment. Excuse me, time to turn on this beast to watch some college BB in wondrous HD. Ain't life great!!

Cheers

DaverJ

02-12-05, 01:27 PM

I know I was searching around for a place to put my heavy Polk center speaker on my 60XS, and another thread pointed to this Omnimount stand that does the trick nicely, so maybe this will help someone else out with the same question.

I picked it up at Circuit City... price is a tad much for what you get, but construction is good and the speaker feels pretty secure up there. Here's a link:

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/OmniMount-Center-Channel-Speaker-Shelf-CCH1B-/sem/rpsm/oid/108951/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

Here's a pic from the front....

DaverJ

02-12-05, 01:27 PM

Here's the Center Speaker mount from the back...

(eee... I need to dust! )

chad2323

02-12-05, 01:36 PM

So nobody knows how to get into the service menu on these TV's to check to see how many hours on the Lamp? I found a thread how to get into the service menu but from there I'm lost and I don't want to fiddle with it when I'm not sure what I'm doing. So if anyone knows how to do this I would appreciate it.

Thank's

James T

02-12-05, 01:52 PM

Mac attack
You are correct in your assessment. I do not believe that you mentioned there is a built in sub woofer and two hdmi connections.

However I looked at Toshiba and Panasonic DLP and there were good.I did not find the SD very good on either set and there was picture breakdown on the Toshiba with quick movement so there was something not quite right with the refresh rate.

When you make a large purchase such as a television that requires the consumer to make an informed decision based on all the facts especially when the set is $1500 to $2000 more in Canada

I chose the 60 in xs and have been pleased as punch. I have received many favourable coments about the set.

BenK

02-12-05, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by drwtsn32
Ok, I have calibrated both the Pro and Standard user settings (brightness, picture, color, livecolor) as best I could using THX optimizer. Hue seemed to be perfect already (using blue filter from VE disc).

Why is Pro so much more blurry than Standard? I can't seem to compensate for it by adjusting the sharpness. I really dislike Pro because of the softness of the picture, but I would like to use it because of it's black corrector and gamma corrector options. If only I could make it as "clear" as Standard.

Pro mode by default has no enhancements whereas Standard mode does. Set the "detail enhancer" setting for Pro mode in the advanced menu to medium to closely match the sharpness in the Standard setting. The low setting doesnt do much and the high setting is only noticeable on a resolution chart.

brian33

02-12-05, 03:35 PM

I'm having a problem with the dark scenes on my 55XS. In the very dark scenes it is very hard to differentiate things with in the scene. For example in Cat Women during some of the dark scenes I could not tell where her outfit started and stoped, it was just all dark. I don't know what this is called or what is causing it. Does anyone have these issues?

Thanks

icon

02-12-05, 04:07 PM

Good to see that "XS" has gone on it's own. This site is no different than the "XBR" site and i didn't read complaints about that. I have had my 60XS since Oct. and love it!!, i also have the 50WE and will be getting the 42WE next month. But i still want to know more about my XS, and not have to scan through the WE''s and WF's banter and hope that an XS owner speaks up.
i still will check out the GWIV site, but this site will be my first stop i hope for a long time.

my 60XS

Zues

02-12-05, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by drwtsn32
Ok, I have calibrated both the Pro and Standard user settings (brightness, picture, color, livecolor) as best I could using THX optimizer. Hue seemed to be perfect already (using blue filter from VE disc).

Why is Pro so much more blurry than Standard? I can't seem to compensate for it by adjusting the sharpness. I really dislike Pro because of the softness of the picture, but I would like to use it because of it's black corrector and gamma corrector options. If only I could make it as "clear" as Standard.

It needs service menu adjustments to make pro look good.. It might be worth having a pro do the adjustments.. Ive heard umrs tweaks help the pro mode on the gw3s....Can these tweaks be made on these tvs?

IamtheWolf

02-12-05, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Zues
It needs service menu adjustments to make pro look good....

Have to disagree there. I have no such issue and no need or purpose to go into SM. Lots of good advice here at AVS and tweaking has allowed for outstanding results on my 55xs. Pro mode especially provides adequate flexibility.

Buck's SCSW

02-12-05, 04:56 PM

Icon, where did you get that stand?

BenK

02-12-05, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by Zues
It needs service menu adjustments to make pro look good.. It might be worth having a pro do the adjustments.. Ive heard umrs tweaks help the pro mode on the gw3s....Can these tweaks be made on these tvs?

I have to disagree also. Its not necessary with the XS series. With all the adjustable advanced settings in Pro mode theres no need to go into the service mode for excellent output except maybe setting grayscale.

Zues

02-12-05, 05:17 PM

Well i feel better hearing this.....I just ordered my 55xs today:D I do remember pro mode was washed out on my gw3.. Id rather not have anyone touch my tv either....But if im not happy with this xs its getting pro tweaks for sure.:)

IamtheWolf

02-12-05, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by Zues
Well i feel better hearing this.....I just ordered my 55xs today:D I do remember pro mode was washed out on my gw3.. Id rather not have anyone touch my tv either....But if im not happy with this xs its getting pro tweaks for sure.:)

Welcome to the the club :) When you get the set, be patient! Its taken awhile to read through the settings and then tweak/experiment based on inputs.

Meanwhile, the User Guide is on-line, and BB or CC have it (so you can go mess with their remote for practice). Also, if you haven't already done so, brush up on the device that will feed your baby (OTA, STB, specific cable provider or satellite company -aka your partner) elsewhere on AVS.

DaverJ

02-12-05, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by brian33
I'm having a problem with the dark scenes on my 55XS. In the very dark scenes it is very hard to differentiate things with in the scene. For example in Cat Women during some of the dark scenes I could not tell where her outfit started and stoped, it was just all dark. I don't know what this is called or what is causing it. Does anyone have these issues?

Thanks

I had these problems when I first set up my set... I watched one of the Star Wars movies and in a dark scene Darth Vader's outfit blended into the background.

After experimenting, I found that I could tweak the black levels much better when my DVD player was set in Interlaced mode (480i). In that mode, the player passed pluge and I could tell the set where where black "ended" without going too dark.

If you have access to a DVD with the THX optimizer, check to make sure your DVD is set for interlaced and check out the THX tests... they will get you in the ballpark for a much improved movie picture.

videoaddikt

02-12-05, 09:31 PM

Feedback from y'all.....
I've had my eye on the Sony LCD projection series for some time. Saw some great looking DLPs, (thought the Tosh beat out the Sammy but not by much) and others.
The CC near us had the older (non X) Sony 50" unit playing an extract from Fox Sports on the Superbowl, in HD.
Incredible! I could eat the colors!
I have been trying hard to like the Mits and Sony CRT-RPTVs and no matter how hard I try, and they do look very good for the price, they seem to say, "This picture is being projected from the rear...."
It's very hard to explain. But I can look at a DLP or LCDRP and it does not look that way at all.
If I tried hard, very close up, I could begin to see SDE. But at normal viewing distance, nothing but a bright colorful and sharp picture.
Up to this point I can not really see anything consistently better than the Sony except for a plasma.
Also, in reading all these posts, the Sony seems to have the fewest unsatifsfied customers, returning sets, etc.
The WAF is high on this one too...

Nash06

02-13-05, 11:42 AM

I have the 60XS955. Anyone having problems with the info screen popping up during operation? This has happened several times while watching cable and playing XBOX.

James T

02-13-05, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by videoaddikt
Feedback from y'all.....
I've had my eye on the Sony LCD projection series for some time. Saw some great looking DLPs, (thought the Tosh beat out the Sammy but not by much) and others.
The CC near us had the older (non X) Sony 50" unit playing an extract from Fox Sports on the Superbowl, in HD.
Incredible! I could eat the colors!
I have been trying hard to like the Mits and Sony CRT-RPTVs and no matter how hard I try, and they do look very good for the price, they seem to say, "This picture is being projected from the rear...."
It's very hard to explain. But I can look at a DLP or LCDRP and it does not look that way at all.
If I tried hard, very close up, I could begin to see SDE. But at normal viewing distance, nothing but a bright colorful and sharp picture.
Up to this point I can not really see anything consistently better than the Sony except for a plasma.
Also, in reading all these posts, the Sony seems to have the fewest unsatifsfied customers, returning sets, etc.
The WAF is high on this one too...

Hi as a consumer you have to make an informed judgment.The CRT are good sets however it is my understating that the majority of manufactures will cease production June 2005.
The other types of sets DLP and LCD have become too popular and a lot easier to move than the crt.
I would suggest that you go to a store that has a 30 day refund policy and make your purchase.
Also have a cable or analog signal put through the set.This will show the worst of the particular set you are contemplating.HD picture in the majority of sets is terrific it is suppose to be 6 times the resolution and colour of the analog set.

As I have stated in previous posts I settled on the 60 in xs very happy with the purchase and performance of the set. The wf series is cheaper most of the time by about $500.00 but some members have reported a diferrance of 1 or 200.The WF has a few less features mostly in fine tuning the picture but still has great performance as all the sony lcd sets. I would suggest that you go to www.sonystyle.com and compare the sets one on one.

IamtheWolf

02-13-05, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Nash06
I have the 60XS955. Anyone having problems with the info screen popping up during operation? This has happened several times while watching cable and playing XBOX.

It happened once, and separately on my son's hitachi (more so with him playing PS/2). My theory is there is some radio frequency interference that causes the remote to transmit.
Solution? point the remote away from the TV when not using it. I'm not kidding, and let me know if this works since my sample size is one.

videoaddikt

02-13-05, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by James T
Hi as a consumer you have to make an informed judgment.The CRT are good sets however it is my understating that the majority of manufactures will cease production June 2005.
The other types of sets DLP and LCD have become too popular and a lot easier to move than the crt.
I would suggest that you go to a store that has a 30 day refund policy and make your purchase.
Also have a cable or analog signal put through the set.This will show the worst of the particular set you are contemplating.HD picture in the majority of sets is terrific it is suppose to be 6 times the resolution and colour of the analog set.

As I have stated in previous posts I settled on the 60 in xs very happy with the purchase and performance of the set. The wf series is cheaper most of the time by about $500.00 but some members have reported a diferrance of 1 or 200.The WF has a few less features mostly in fine tuning the picture but still has great performance as all the sony lcd sets. I would suggest that you go to www.sonystyle.com and compare the sets one on one.

Thanks, James! That has to be one of the most objective replies I've read in a long time. Especially coming from an Sony 'owner'. It's appreciated.

After writing the post last night, I am bed reading my latest issue of HTMag.
They have assembled a budget system sans display. Finishing off the system, they have $3000 left for the TV.
The editors recommend these two:

Plasma: Panasonic TH-42PD25

or

LCDTV: Sony KDF-50WE655

My choice for my system: the 50" Panny or the X version of the Sony, the 55" model.
I would find it hard not to have the X version. I am a born tweaker. :)

As I get closer in my decision I will get demos with SD broadcast as well as my own DVDs ....thanks again.

James T

02-13-05, 03:27 PM

Videoaddik

Unless you have a really small room say away from the 42 inch you will regret buying it in that size.
The Sony website recommend minimum viewing distance for the 55in and 60 inch 7.8 feet that surprises a lot of people
Many people believe it should be 10to 12 ft not the case.

At present I watch my from 7ft and 9 ft and I encounter no problems.
You will hear complaints about the silk screen affect or the black crush but you really have to look for that, the overall performance of the set outweighs the so called deficiency of the LCD models.

If your budget allows go for the 60 in.

In Canada I believe you can no longer get the Panny LCD only the DLP and one time both were available.
The Panny is a good set I have heard many good reviews about it.
What this boils down too is do you prefer a chevy or Ford or more appropriately do you prefer a Chrysler on a Buick.

Riddy

02-13-05, 03:39 PM

I have a 60xs and have this problem 3 times. When turning on the tv, the screen is full of snow. You can hear sound and barely see the picture through the snow. If I turn the set off for a while it fixes the screen and pictures look fine. Anyone else have this problem????

videoaddikt

02-13-05, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by James T
Videoaddik

In Canada I believe you can no longer get the Panny LCD only the DLP and one time both were available.
The Panny is a good set I have heard many good reviews about it.
What this boils down too is do you prefer a chevy or Ford or more appropriately do you prefer a Chrysler on a Buick.

I was only citing the 42" Panasonic(Plasma not LCD) as a technical review recommendation from HTM. The 50" would have been out of THEIR planned budget.
For size and distance I am looking at 55". 50" minimum if I went with the Panny .. my distance is about 9-10'. I agree, no way anything less than 50" would do it.

DaverJ

02-13-05, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by Nash06
I have the 60XS955. Anyone having problems with the info screen popping up during operation? This has happened several times while watching cable and playing XBOX.

Others have mentioned this... It has happened to me 2 times since owning the set for over 6 weeks. Once I was watching a DVD and other times I was watching Tivo.

Aceman

02-13-05, 05:54 PM

Folks,

I've had the 60XS for almost 2 months now. Overall, VERY satisfied w/ the set. HD is as usual, killer! My question to you is for SD.

I'm seeing jaggies on lines that should be straight, almost banding if i had to describe it. for example, on some shows, if there's an armchair, the arms of hte chair where its curved look jagged.

I just got my dad a 60WF and saw similar banding/jaggies and he has a different cable company.

ANyone seen this???

Aceman

James T

02-13-05, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by Riddy
I have a 60xs and have this problem 3 times. When turning on the tv, the screen is full of snow. You can hear sound and barely see the picture through the snow. If I turn the set off for a while it fixes the screen and pictures look fine. Anyone else have this problem????

You do not say what your signal source is. I anticipate that you are not working on the cable card. There are some problems with the cable card and it reacting with different cable companies.

1.The problem could be caused by an intermittent signal getting to the set. Check the cable leads and make certain the outer mesh cable which is under the plastic cable covering is grounded to the chrome ring at the end of the terminal. In other words your signal cable is not grounded properly.

2. The ant button to the right of the channel button on the remote will put the picture into snow where there is no signal. It usually leaves a header bar on the screen. Make certain that this button is not getting pressed accidentally.
When you get a signal press the button and see what happens to the tv.

3.Top right on the remote below the power button tv/video try that and scroll through the eight options that you have.

4. Re program the tv with all the channels that is provided by your cable or satellite provider.This could take up to 60 minutes

5. Check all connections on the back of the set to make certain there is a snug fit on them

6. Check to make certain that the cable connection is attached to the cable terminal on the back of your set not the antennae terminal.

I have given you some trouble shooting ideas and if all else fails contact Sony help line and if they can not help
perhaps it may be time for a service call.
There were some issues with the tuner mentioned on the sticky for GWIV
about a month ago but I don recall what they were but Sony was interested in them because this is a new tuner for the model year.

DaverJ

02-13-05, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by Aceman
Folks,

I've had the 60XS for almost 2 months now. Overall, VERY satisfied w/ the set. HD is as usual, killer! My question to you is for SD.

I'm seeing jaggies on lines that should be straight, almost banding if i had to describe it. for example, on some shows, if there's an armchair, the arms of hte chair where its curved look jagged.

I just got my dad a 60WF and saw similar banding/jaggies and he has a different cable company.

ANyone seen this???

Aceman

I noticed this lately... I'm thinking it might be the DRC mode. Mine was set to Cinemotion, which adjusts the 3:2 pulldown. I changed mine to Full Density mode for moving images. I don't know if it was the cause... haven't watched enough yet to notice.

drhollen

02-13-05, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Nash06
I have the 60XS955. Anyone having problems with the info screen popping up during operation? This has happened several times while watching cable and playing XBOX.

Me too. I've had mine since early Nov. 2004 and it has done it maybe six or seven times. I think this is a known problem with firmware. The rumor is that Sony is aware of it and working on a firmware fix.

How do we check firmware version on XS? What is latest?

Buck's SCSW

02-13-05, 11:04 PM

It happened to me once in very limited viewing. I found a simple fix though: push display on the remote. :)

drwtsn32

02-14-05, 12:19 AM

I have this problem too sometimes. I don't suppose there's any chance the firmware is user upgradable..

MacAttack1970

02-14-05, 02:05 PM

I have only had my set for 4 days now. I have seen the info screen pop up several times. I cannot say whether it was user error, remote error, or something else. I bought a univrsal remote that is not very useable with 55XS955 (Harmony 658). I will keep an eye out to see if I can figure out if I caused it or if it is the remote.

If anyone has a recommendation for a good universal remote for this TV, it would be appreciated.

Buck's SCSW

02-14-05, 02:14 PM

What's the problem with the remote? I have a 688...

MacAttack1970

02-14-05, 02:37 PM

Here is my issue with the remotes:

Sony (came with the TV)
1. Horrible IR signal to the HD. If it is not pointed right at the lower right corner nothing happens.
2. To navigate inputs, I have to press teh button a gazillion times.
3. Cheap

Harmony 659
1. Works very inconsistantly.
2. Does not power on my DVD player unless I use an Activity key
3. If component mapped to the Activity key is turned on, pressing the Activity key turns it off. Pressing it again turns the TV off, but the component on. Very annoying
4. You have to scroll through a multitude of menus by pressing Next to get to the button you want. Once there, they don't work.
5. Very slow response time from pressing the button and the signal being sent.

I have to admit, I have not done more tweaking that simply setting up the remote the first time. I am going to be taking this one back anyway. The cost is just too high. I was at Best Buy and decided to try it out knowing I can return it in 30 days with no hassle. I can get it online for more than 50% off of what I paid for it (approximately $75). To me, $75 is $75.

chuy

02-14-05, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by MacAttack1970
I have only had my set for 4 days now. I have seen the info screen pop up several times. I cannot say whether it was user error, remote error, or something else. I bought a univrsal remote that is not very useable with 55XS955 (Harmony 658). I will keep an eye out to see if I can figure out if I caused it or if it is the remote.

If anyone has a recommendation for a good universal remote for this TV, it would be appreciated.

I saw my info screen on my XS show up once. I noticed it happen when there was a glitch in the Time Warner broadcast of some HD channel. I'm wondering if this is the problem that everyone is seeing.

drwtsn32

02-14-05, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by MacAttack1970
1. Horrible IR signal to the HD. If it is not pointed right at the lower right corner nothing happens.
2. To navigate inputs, I have to press teh button a gazillion times.

Yep, I use a Sony RM-VL900 instead and it has a much stronger IR emitter.

Regarding navigating inputs, you can have the TV skip unused inputs by labeling the input "Skip". Or, if you have the VL-900, you can jump to a specific input by pressing Video and a number button (of the input # to go to) simultaneously.

wideamg

02-14-05, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by drwtsn32
I have this problem too sometimes. I don't suppose there's any chance the firmware is user upgradable..

i read somewhere that the firmware is upgradeable through a memory stick. that would be cool, sony can send us all an upgrade through the mail.

wideamg

02-14-05, 09:57 PM

one thing that is rarely mentioned is that this TV is simply the best looking on the market. the set's design and cabinet is gorgeous. a 50+ inch set is a big piece of furniture and makes quite a large visual impact in a room. the XS compared to other TVs, and other sonys in fact, really stands out in the crowd. those other sets (i don't want to mention SAMSUNG's name) are very boring, plain and cheap looking. gone are the days of those big black monoliths, even the wife likes it but she keeps asking
"why are you staring at the TV? its not even on" i just smile without turning my head.

JasonColeman

02-15-05, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by wideamg
...this TV is simply the best looking on the market...compared to other TVs, and other sonys in fact... those other sets...are very boring, plain and cheap looking...
You might want to be careful bad-mouthing those other sets. I think that this can be a helpful and constructive thread, but nothing good comes of talking badly about other people's gear. There's no need to further alienate this thread (and yourself) from the GWIV thread and posters. Let's try to stay on topic.

Just a thought...

Jason

BenK

02-15-05, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by JasonColeman
You might want to be careful bad-mouthing those other sets. I think that this can be a helpful and constructive thread, but nothing good comes of talking badly about other people's gear. There's no need to further alienate this thread (and yourself) from the GWIV thread and posters. Let's try to stay on topic.

Just a thought...

Jason

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Especially since this IS a thread about the XS series. I'm sure he's just trying to stress how much he likes the way it looks. For me I preferred the way the WF series looked but after having the 55XS955 I like it better.

JasonColeman

02-15-05, 08:47 AM

I understand and appreciate that he is happy with his set and wants to express his opinion, but there's a way to do it without bashing other sets by calling them "very boring, plain and cheap looking." All that kind of comment does is piss off the owners of the WF or WE sets and push this thread further away from the wealth of information that is the GWIV thread.

FWIW, I don't own either the XS or WF or WE, so it's not my parade that's being rained on. I'm very interested in purchasing the 55XS, thus my interest in this thread.

Jason

Buck's SCSW

02-15-05, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by JasonColeman
I understand and appreciate that he is happy with his set and wants to express his opinion, but there's a way to do it without bashing other sets by calling them "very boring, plain and cheap looking." All that kind of comment does is piss off the owners of the WF or WE sets and push this thread further away from the wealth of information that is the GWIV thread.

Don't worry, they'll get over it. There's plenty of information there, here, and everywhere in between. Besides, I'm sure they think the opposite and could care less what some in this thread may think. The design of the XS gets bashed in the owner's thread more times than not but it doesn't bother me.

Originally posted by JasonColeman
FWIW, I don't own either the XS or WF or WE, so it's not my parade that's being rained on. I'm very interested in purchasing the 55XS, thus my interest in this thread. So pipe down noob! :D

JasonColeman

02-15-05, 09:43 AM

Wow! Breakin' out the "N" word... :D

Jason

BenK

02-15-05, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by JasonColeman
I understand and appreciate that he is happy with his set and wants to express his opinion, but there's a way to do it without bashing other sets by calling them "very boring, plain and cheap looking." All that kind of comment does is piss off the owners of the WF or WE sets and push this thread further away from the wealth of information that is the GWIV thread.

FWIW, I don't own either the XS or WF or WE, so it's not my parade that's being rained on. I'm very interested in purchasing the 55XS, thus my interest in this thread.

Jason

Only sensitive people would find that offending. Someone could say the XS series was the uglyiest tv ever made. Don't matter to me. Now if someone said my kid was ugly thats a different story :D The thing is everything offends someone. Especially these days. Can't always be worried about offending someone. That's all I'm going to say about that.

Buck's SCSW

02-15-05, 09:53 AM

Anyone here get their set calibrated? Where are your user settings at? Such a shameless attempt to get my TV looking good...:D

BenK

02-15-05, 09:57 AM

Back on topic. I noticed playing with the gamma corrector that the higher up ya go with the setting the less color saturation there is. The best way to tell is to look at the backround color of the menu (indigo for example) while you change the setting from low to high. It'll get washed out the higher up you go. I had mine set to low but I've seen many people set theirs to medium so I was curious. I still prefer the low setting especially after noticing this. Is there a "correct" setting for this or is it just preference?

drwtsn32

02-15-05, 10:04 AM

Buck, I now use Pro mode since finding out that it can look nearly as sharp as Standard mode when you set Detail Enhancer to Medium.

Here are my other settings that I recall off the top of my head:

Color Temp = Warm
Noise Reduction = Off
Mild Mode = Off

Advanced:
Cinemotion
DRC Custom3 (25/25)
BN = Off
LiveColor = Medium
ClearWhite = On
Detail Enhancer = Medium
Black Corrector = Low
Gamma Corrector = Low

I calibrated the brightness using the THX optimizer. The other settings (picture, color, hue, etc) seem to be fine at the Pro defaults.

I am not sure if turning on ClearWhite is a good thing or not, but I have it left on right now just to try it out.

BTW, I have never changed anything in the service menu yet. Not sure if I ever will. I am very happy with how my set looks using the above settings.

garymil

02-15-05, 10:06 AM

Yeah, I'm insulted and feel alienated. Guess it's back to the lowly GWIV thread with the other WF losers.

By the way, wideamg I think the WF series looks really kewl and is not boring at all.

I prefer the WF looks over the overblown XS anytime.

By the way, just about every post in this "XS" thread is relevent to the WF series as well. The WF and XS series are probably 99% internally identical.

One extra HDMI input, 2 extra user settings, and an extra tweeter or two are the only differences.

Buck's SCSW

02-15-05, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by garymil
Yeah, I'm insulted and feel alienated. Guess it's back to the lowly GWIV thread with the other WF losers.

By the way, wideamg I think the WF series looks really kewl and is not boring at all.

I prefer the WF looks over the overblown XS anytime.

By the way, just about every post in this "XS" thread is relevent to the WF series as well. The WF and XS series are probably 99% internally identical.

One extra HDMI input, 2 extra user settings, and an extra tweeter or two are the only differences. Troll! :D Seriously though, don't you find it somewhat ironic that you post that right after a XS-specific post? You say that they are 99% internally identical, and I say you're right, because the picture of each set can look exactly the same with proper calibration. It's just a question of whether or not I have to pay someone to do it for me.

BenK

02-15-05, 10:17 AM

The looks will be subjective. Everyone won't agree on that. But they're more than 2 extra user settings that make quite a difference. I've had both the WF and XS series. Picture quality wise the XS is better hands down.

Michael Mohrmann

02-15-05, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by garymil
One extra HDMI input, 2 extra user settings, and an extra tweeter or two are the only differences.
There are 6 extra user settings in the XS955 over the WF655, including the unique (to the XS955) setting of "Live Color".

Michael

NoPlasmaYet

02-15-05, 10:34 AM

I have received some good advice from people on this forum. I have visited the XS thread because I'm still within my 30 day return window. So, It makes sense to explore other options.

I do find I object to the attitude displayed (by some, not all) of these XS owners towards other sets. It's that "attitude" that makes their opinions invalid (at least in my view point). I have looked at other manufacturers sets, Panny (for example) has a gamma adjustment (in the menu) yet I don't see people raving about (being a "must have", yet there are XS owners who feel you cannot live without it. I'm puzzled...........

Again I thank those who give good, level headed advice, without the bragging.................

lark

02-15-05, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by BenK
The looks will be subjective. Everyone won't agree on that. But they're more than 2 extra user settings that make quite a difference. I've had both the WF and XS series. Picture quality wise the XS is better hands down.

Agreed. I bought an XS even though I specifically do not like the way it looks. I think the space between the speakers is kind of silly in a 1999 space-age sort of way. I plan to have this tv in our living room for a while, and I have considerable worry that it is going to start looking dated pretty quickly. I think the xbr sets look much better in a more classic way and wish they'd kept a similar look with the top end GWIV (but sans the reflective mirror on the front).

Buck's SCSW

02-15-05, 11:17 AM

Help me understand something fellas. The sets have the same internal parts with the only exception being "live color", which most of us have turned off anyway. So how can the XS have a better picture hands-down? I bought the XS for the extra HDMI, extra user adjustments, and unique style. What about you?

Blind

02-15-05, 11:24 AM

I’ve had my Sony 55xs955 a little over a month and I think it is getting noisier. I don’t if I am hallucinating, but I don’t remember being able to hear and be annoyed by noticeable fan noise across the room during low volume conversations before.

Has anyone else experienced this?

NoPlasmaYet

02-15-05, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Blind
I’ve had my Sony 55xs955 a little over a month and I think it is getting noisier. I don’t if I am hallucinating, but I don’t remember being able to hear and be annoyed by noticeable fan noise across the room during low volume conversations before.

Has anyone else experienced this?

Blind,

Perhaps you can turn a deaf ear?

Sorry, couldn't resist. One question I do have. Have room conditions changed? Is it warmer in the room than before?

Blind

02-15-05, 12:00 PM

The only thing that changed is that I am doing work to quiet my HTPC and so that has been turned off for a few days, but it wasn’t running for the when I first got the TV either. It just seems to be running at a higher pitch. Anyone have experience with Sony for fan replacements?

NoPlasmaYet

02-15-05, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by Blind
The only thing that changed is that I am doing work to quiet my HTPC and so that has been turned off for a few days, but it wasn’t running for the when I first got the TV either. It just seems to be running at a higher pitch. Anyone have experience with Sony for fan replacements?

Blind,

If the noise is from the motor (bearings) it will tend to be a high pitched sound. It will increase with speed. You might want to check if dust is blocking the air vents (inlet side). A partially clogged vent will increase the noise level.

Turd Burglar

02-15-05, 01:48 PM

Good thread guys. Just glad I don't have to read the LCD RP vs. DLP flame wars...

I love this TV - I bought it over the WF for the extra HDMI and tweaks personally. I really have no complaints, except for the fact that on extremely bright scenes on HD broadcasts, sometimes it looks like the screen got some water on it so you see sort of a shimmering effect. To my eye, it looks like there is stuff on the screen in front of the actual picture. Is that the SSE? Any way to get rid of that?

Also, what mode are you guys working off of to calibrate? I've never calibrated a TV before, and have had the XS about 5 weeks now. My AVIA and DVE just came in, so if anyone could point me in the right direction as to which disks to start with and under what settings, and any other tips, that would be greatly appreciated.

bradyk

02-15-05, 02:11 PM

Have any of you had problems playing Xbox games in widescreen? I can't seem to get the tv to recognize the proper output. I have 480p, 720p, and 1080i on, along with widescreen mode. It stays in widescreen from the menu to the title screen, then reverts back to 4:3 display as the game comes on.

MacAttack1970

02-15-05, 02:22 PM

I have not had the problem pn my XBox, but I have only played Tiger Woods 2005 briefly. I know you need to be sure the TV is in full mode and that you have set the XBox dashboard correctly.

Squawks

02-15-05, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by Turd Burglar
Is that the SSE? Any way to get rid of that?

Also, what mode are you guys working off of to calibrate?

Yes, that would be the SSE. There isn't a way to get rid of it - it's really an inherent trait of the way the lamp is directioned in the set, or the way the screen works, etc. Everybody sees this SSE, so you being able to see it isn't a defect. People get used to it pretty easily and SSE is really only apparent on bright scenes of flat colors.

I would suggest you calibrate in PRO mode, as PRO mode enables you to tweak with 'extra' options which may prove helpful in calibration, especially in areas such as gamma/black corrector. The gamma option is pretty helpful in eliminating black crush.

Bradyk, what game are you talking about? Some Xbox games have buggy software glitches where the game won't send to the TV that it's in widescreen format (the WS flag), thus making the TV think that a 4:3 signal is being inputted and that the TV will now revert to the 4:3 wide default (whatever you had it set on). Halo 2 is a notorious example.

An easy way to remedy this is to use the TV's various wide modes. Usually, FULL should do the trick and of course, be warned that Halo 2 isn't be stretched...the HUD overlay is stretched but the actual gameplay isn't (you can actually see more peripheral stuff on the left/right sides of the screen).

EDIT: For those of you who are not very familiar with LIVE COLOR on the XS955, turn on the live color demo in the user options (not the video options). When the demo is on, the TV will have live color on in only half of the TV screen, letting you compare half the of screen (with live color on) with the other half (no live color). The TV labels which side is which. I noticed that blues are a little more enhanced, and reds seem to be a tad bit toned down. The difference is very subtle, however.

MDJ51

02-15-05, 03:09 PM

Xs955 i go under pro mode and get to live color, my screen does not split or really show any difference Am i missing something here?

BenK

02-15-05, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by MDJ51
Xs955 i go under pro mode and get to live color, my screen does not split or really show any difference Am i missing something here?

It'll say "live color demo" in the advanced settings I believe. Its not actually in the live color settings menu.

Live color isnt talked about much but is a very important feature. Like most tv's the Sony has about 20% red push so to eliminate that you need to reduce overall color (or possibly go into the service menu). But in doing so you're reducing the blue and green. Thats where live color comes in. Using the Avia color decoder check you can raise the live color setting to boost the blue and green color decoder to match the red to get them as close as 0% as possible. Its a great overlooked feature.

Buck's SCSW

02-15-05, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by BenK
It'll say "live color demo" in the advanced settings I believe. Its not actually in the live color settings menu.

Live color isnt talked about much but is a very important feature. Like most tv's the Sony has about 20% red push so to eliminate that you need to reduce overall color (or possibly go into the service menu). But in doing so you're reducing the blue and green. Thats where live color comes in. Using the Avia color decoder check you can raise the live color setting to boost the blue and green color decoder to match the red to get them as close as 0% as possible. Its a great overlooked feature. So what are your settings if I can ask?

laynrubr

02-15-05, 05:27 PM

Can anyone tell me how to get the PIP to work on my 60xs? I am using a HD set top box connected via component. I can only get the PIP to display the same channel on both screens. Do I have to change the way my box is connected? Thanks in advance.

drwtsn32

02-15-05, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by bradyk
Have any of you had problems playing Xbox games in widescreen? I can't seem to get the tv to recognize the proper output. I have 480p, 720p, and 1080i on, along with widescreen mode. It stays in widescreen from the menu to the title screen, then reverts back to 4:3 display as the game comes on.

Yeah, the XBox doesn't seem to send the 16:9 flag on at least some games. Halo 2 for example. You need to select "Full" mode to get it in wide screen, but it is truly 16:9 (not simply stretched 4:3).

OTOH, I have played Soul Calibur II and the TV detects 16:9 without problems. Maybe it's because that game is 720p (which is absolutely stunning).

drwtsn32

02-15-05, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by laynrubr
Can anyone tell me how to get the PIP to work on my 60xs? I am using a HD set top box connected via component. I can only get the PIP to display the same channel on both screens. Do I have to change the way my box is connected? Thanks in advance.
You won't be able to show two different channels from your set top box. You can see one channel from that and one from another source, like a DVD player.

Are you using cable? If you are, you could possibly replace your set top box with a CableCard. Then you could simply plug the cable connection right into the back of your TV. It could tune two channels for PIP this way.

BenK

02-15-05, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by Buck's SCSW
So what are your settings if I can ask?

I used Avia for regular picture settings and it seems the default settings are just about spot on. I backed off color to about 26 to compensate for the red push though. My HD settings are slightly different except for the advanced settings which are set the same.

Picture 46
Brightness 30
Color 26
Hue 0
Sharpness 28
Color Temp: Warm
Noise reduction: Low

Live color: High
Clear white: Off
Detail enhancer: medium
Black corrector: Off
Gamme corrector: Low

Squawks

02-16-05, 01:51 AM

Tonight, while in the middle of watching L&O: SVU, my 55XS just died out.

At first it was strange - the video dropped out but there was still sound being output. The green LED was flashing. I thought it could have been the signal so I tried switching channels - to an analog channel. There, I could see a picture but it was very dim...then that too died out after several seconds. I eventually turned off the TV. Then turned it back on about five minutes later - this time the green light was flashing (normal) but no picture appeared...eventually the red light started flashing.

So sadly, after a month and a half of use, my TV has given up. Even though I'm still in my 1 year manufacturer warranty, I'm still going to haggle Best Buy to come over and change my lamp unit...I purchased the extended warranty.

I don't think I have read of anybody getting their lamp unit replaced for this XS955 (too new, I suppose) - and I am a little concerned when the blokes from BB come over, toodling with my set and potentially bringing up even more problems when replacing the lamp unit. The worst scenario I can think of is capturing dust in the inside of my screen when pulling off the front panel (to access the lamp unit ballast)...and to make things worst, my place is filled with dust and dog hair.

Anyways, I don't intend to cause an uproar in this thread - the XS955 is a great set and I am beyond sure that the reason my lamp unit prematurely failed is because the dumbasses from Best Buy delivery simply lugged my set on it side using a dolly over 3 flights of stairs (come on, two guys, 120 lbs...how hard is that?).

I will inform on progress, if any - wish me luck and I'm afraid I won't scrutinize my screen afterwards looking for dust specks behind it because I think that'll just make things worst (for my anxiety).

It's a little interesting, actually - I noticed a short video dropout (about 5 seconds long) while watching a program a few weeks ago...the dropout was pretty gradual - faded to pitch black, and then the picture faded back on. For other XS owners out there - I caution you all that this would be a symptom of a failing lamp unit.

drwtsn32

02-16-05, 01:55 AM

Damn...what is the life SUPPOSED to be on the lamps in the XS sets?

I ended up buying the Circuit City 4-year extended warranty for $299 because they said they'll replace the lamps during that time. I was like "no way--that's a normal wear and tear item!" but they said "yep" and the manager had it printed on the warranty receipt.

BenK

02-16-05, 06:44 AM

I also got a 5 year warranty that includes bulb changes. There's no way I'd pay this much for a tv and not get a warranty. I'm not too worried about the bulb though. I can swing $199 for it if need be.

DaverJ

02-16-05, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by Squawks
...

I will inform on progress, if any - wish me luck and I'm afraid I won't scrutinize my screen afterwards looking for dust specks behind it because I think that'll just make things worst (for my anxiety).

It's a little interesting, actually - I noticed a short video dropout (about 5 seconds long) while watching a program a few weeks ago...the dropout was pretty gradual - faded to pitch black, and then the picture faded back on. . ...

Thanks so much for posting this info... I wish you the best of luck and PLEASE post a follow-up on your situation as to the speed and accuracy that Best Buy (hopefully) solved the problem.

-dw

Michael Mohrmann

02-16-05, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Squawks
Anyways, I don't intend to cause an uproar in this thread - the XS955 is a great set and I am beyond sure that the reason my lamp unit prematurely failed is because the dumbasses from Best Buy delivery simply lugged my set on it side using a dolly over 3 flights of stairs (come on, two guys, 120 lbs...how hard is that?).
I remember this story. You may be right in that BB's delivery technique may have led to the early failure of your lamp. Let's hope that's all that was damaged during the delivery. This may be a long shot, but it is possible that your lamp came loose during the delivery and reseating it might bring your TV back to life.

BTW, the original lamp in the XS955 is warranted for one year by Sony. So, I think you will be dealing with Sony directly rather than BB for the replacement. I am not sure whether the replacement lamp Sony will give you has a 90 day warranty or a one year warranty (my guess: 90 days).

Michael

Squawks

02-16-05, 01:46 PM

Ok, back to my 55XS saga:

I called BestBuy last night at around 11 PM PST and surprisingly, their EW service reps were still working. I didn't expect this, but nonetheless that's something good to know. Anyway, the service rep was very courteous, and referred me to a professional TV repair shop near my area. Best Buy faxes the repair shop all of the necessary information about the customer/TV...pretty much gives them the heads-up to come and fix my TV. So that's good news - the TV repairs will be done by seasoned (hopefully) professionals. Since it was 11 PM at the moment, the shop was closed.

So this morning I called the shop, and they will have somebody over on Monday. I'm not complaining that much - with the TV broken that gives me a good reason to go out and let my dog (and girlfriend) run around in the park over the weekend. The TV is still under the manufacturer's warranty, so Best Buy really didn't have much to do with this - but, I believe this service repair still counts for their "no lemon" policy...where the TV will be replaced/refunded if a 4th service repair is required. So, I'll still keep the service repair receipt in case more problems arise. The set is great - if I had to exchange this set, I'd get another 55XS...actually, I'd probably go for the 60XS and pay a little more.

Michael, your theory of a loose lamp module sounds good - had my lamp actually 'broke' down due to physical damages, I do not think I would have seen any residual picture shown on the screen after changing channels from watching L&O (that went to pitch black). Of course, the TV won't even turn on anymore.

I also noticed that my TV rattles a tiny bit if somebody runs next to the set...as my floor is part of an apartment complex and is quite prone to vibrations. I remember other XS owners noticing a rattling, especially that other person with big speakers next to the set. While it's not definite the rattling is a defect, I would advise wariness if you do notice rattling (and thus avoid rattling the TV if possible).

JohnA

02-16-05, 02:01 PM

A rattling sound would be enough to scare me! Means something is not where it is suppose to be or something has come undone and is loosely attached. My 55XS has performed flawlessly (knock on wood) so far. The guys that delivered the set went out of their way to ensure the set was gently handled and kept in an upright position. Even removed their shoes before entering the house. But by now you can assume I did not buy from BB. Went to my local PROFESSIONAL electronics store and got a price match with BB. Good Luck, keep us posted.

drwtsn32

02-16-05, 03:41 PM

Yeah, a rattle would be disconcerting. My 60XS955 has no such rattle. Maybe you should have the service guy check into that when he comes out on Monday.

chronos69

02-16-05, 08:42 PM

I agree a rattling sound is not good.

When I first got the 60xs I picked it up and had a friend come over. We carried it upright plugged it in and no picture what so ever. Had a tech come out and couldn't get it to work. So had my friend come back over and when we picked up again to put it back on the truck there was something rattling and rolling around inside the tv. I exchanged it and there is nothing rattling now. So to make a long story short I would also have the tech. look into the sound as well.

Avdad

02-17-05, 03:33 PM

Well it's going to be one of these models of that I am sure. But I am curious about the "engine", the unit that actually projects the picture. Does the 55 share the exact same unit as the 60 with the 60 having the projection stretched a little larger than the 55. I guess what I am asking is does the 60 have more pixels than the 55xs955.

Thanks for any assistance,

Norm

BenK

02-17-05, 03:45 PM

The 55 and 60 share the same LCD panels.

DaverJ

02-17-05, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Avdad
I guess what I am asking is does the 60 have more pixels than the 55xs955.

Thanks for any assistance,

Norm

I believe these are fixed pixel sets, so I don't imagine there would be more pixels... just more viewing surface like a larger movie screen.

Viewing distance seems to be the best way to decide between the 55 and 60. If you are going to sit 10 feet or more back or it's going into a moderate to large room, go with the 60. If you are sitting 7 to 10 feet back and the room is smaller, the 55 might be a good choice.

jrm330

02-17-05, 04:39 PM

Got a 60xs955 delivered two weeks ago. About a week ago, it started acting up. The picture powered on, but neither the TV remote, nor the Sony DVD player remote, nor the cable remote could change the channel, volume, or tv/video inputs but they could turn the set off. Sony told me to unplug it and change the batteries on the tv remote (genuises! None of the remotes were working, except to power the unit off and on). Interestingly, even the manual controls on the side of the tv were inoperative.

I unplugged it, waited the 1 minute reset time, plugged it in again. Depending on its mood, it would be different things. Sometimes, it would show a picture/sound, but the remotes were still not working. Sometimes, there would be sound, but no picture (black rectangle in the middle of vertical rainbow lines). Other times, the entire screen had the rainbow vertical lines. It is hit and miss. I ususally do get a picture/sound and operable remotes, but sometimes I have to reset it several times, and it is completely a crapshoot. Of course, the SONY guy is coming next week, but any thoughts on what's causing these crazy and erratic symptoms?

Michael Mohrmann

02-17-05, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by jrm330
Interestingly, even the manual controls on the side of the tv were inoperative.
Up until this statement, I would have said there was a problem with the remote receiver on the TV. This would seem to indicate an internal problem different than the remote circuits.

If you adhered strictly to the "1 minute reset" suggestion, try unplugging the TV for a longer period of time, like 30-60 minutes. Be sure to properly power off the TV first to cool down the lamp.

Also, if you have a voltmeter, carefully measure the voltage output at your outlets to see if you are too low (or possibly too high).

Michael

jrm330

02-17-05, 04:53 PM

As to the voltmeter, it was working fine for a solid week, so it seems to me, if that were the problem, it would have been so from the start, no? I have it set up to a Monster Power Center (H1000?) or whatever it's called. Same problem when I power the TV right into the wall, which I am not crazy about doing.

timescaper

02-17-05, 11:12 PM

Just ordered the tv -

Need help deciding on one of two stands - the dealer offered both for the same price.

1) Sony Stand

2) Bello AVS-2563 racksandstands.cXX/prods/Bello/AVS-2563/Bello/0C54/0PBB0080.htm

Any input is appreciated - the Bello is a little higher and the dealer doesn't seem to fond of sony stand

Avdad

02-18-05, 08:47 AM

Thanks for the replies, that's kind of what I figured.

If the prices ever get back down anywhere near they were at Christmas I'm pulling the pen.

Thought I was going to say the trigger didn't you. :)

Have a great weekend,

Norm

Aceman

02-18-05, 12:29 PM

have any of you brave souls looked at removing the side speakers?

i'd really like to know if its possible - i don't think so from my quick view of the set but just curious if i'm the only one who checked this.

aceman

Michael Mohrmann

02-18-05, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Aceman
have any of you brave souls looked at removing the side speakers?

i'd really like to know if its possible...
If you are talking about the physical removal of the side panels, the answer is no unless you are willing to take a hacksaw to the TV.

Michael

chad2323

02-18-05, 01:48 PM

Still trying to find out how to get into the service menu and find out how many hours on the lamp and I'm figuring since my post's don't get answered nobody knows this. So the question is how can I find out this info? If I buy the service manual will it tell me this info? Thank's to anyone who can help me out with this.

Thank's

JohnA

02-18-05, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by timescaper
Just ordered the tv -

Need help deciding on one of two stands - the dealer offered both for the same price.

1) Sony Stand

2) Bello AVS-2563 racksandstands.cXX/prods/Bello/AVS-2563/Bello/0C54/0PBB0080.htm

Any input is appreciated - the Bello is a little higher and the dealer doesn't seem to fond of sony stand
I would go with the Sony stand. While the Bello stand looks very nice the Sony stand is a perfect, designed match for the TV. I went with the Sony stand after much thought about the price of it and am now glad I did. It is an awesome looking unit even when the TV is off.

JasonColeman

02-18-05, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by chad2323
Still trying to find out how to get into the service menu and find out how many hours on the lamp and I'm figuring since my post's don't get answered nobody knows this. So the question is how can I find out this info? If I buy the service manual will it tell me this info? Thank's to anyone who can help me out with this.

Thank's
From the GWIV thread:

Reading Lamp and Panel time:

In standby mode (TV off) do the following:

1. Press "Display", "5", "Volume +", "Power ON"
2. Press "Jump" 3 times.
3. To display the Lamp time, press "2", 9 times.
Example Display:

PANEL NVM OK 9 OPTION_E
0 LAMP 0 Diff 1
LampTM 14 LampCT 71

Shows:
lamp time = 14 hours
lamp ON/OFF cycle is 71 times

4. To display the Panel time, press "1", 7 times.
Example DIsplay:

PANEL NVM OK 9 OPTION_E

7 SH SFT1 10 Diff 1
PanelTM 14h

Shows:
Panel time = 14 hours

Jason

Michael Mohrmann

02-18-05, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by JasonColeman
In standby mode (TV off) do the following:

1. Press "Display", "5", "Volume +", "Power ON"
This may be an odd question, but are the keys pressed simultaneously or one at a time in the sequence listed?

Michael

RAFABAMAD

02-18-05, 04:52 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by JasonColeman
In standby mode (TV off) do the following:

1. Press "Display", "5", "Volume +", "Power ON"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This may be an odd question, but are the keys pressed simultaneously or one at a time in the sequence listed?

Michael

One at a time, in sequence. At no time either when entering or while in the service menu do you press more than one key at a time.

RAF

chad2323

02-18-05, 05:20 PM

Thank's Jason for helping me out it's much appreciated.

buschman

02-18-05, 06:34 PM

I am about to upgrade my 55WF to a 60XS. Other than the obvious 5" what are the major differences? I changed mostly because the WF has a single HDMI input where the XS has dual inputs which I really need. I understand also that the XS has a 130W buld compared to the WF's 100W. How is the longevity and replacement cost of the XS bulb compared to the WF's? I know the sound system is better in the XS, but that's of little concern to me as I use an outside receiver. it would be nice to use my XS's speakers as a nice center channel. Is there a way to do that?

Any other differences?

Mike

woodydog

02-18-05, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by buschman
I am about to upgrade my 55WF to a 60XS. Other than the obvious 5" what are the major differences? I changed mostly because the WF has a single HDMI input where the XS has dual inputs which I really need. I understand also that the XS has a 130W buld compared to the WF's 100W. How is the longevity and replacement cost of the XS bulb compared to the WF's? I know the sound system is better in the XS, but that's of little concern to me as I use an outside receiver. it would be nice to use my XS's speakers as a nice center channel. Is there a way to do that?
Any other differences?

Both sets use the same 132w lamp (XL-2200). The 100w is used in the WE series. The XS has six additional picture controls. I don't believe you can use the TV speakers as a center channel although that would be nice.

fgags

02-19-05, 01:30 AM

I have the 60xs955. Can you use the cable top set box and the cable card to achieve the pip? Has anyone tried this and does it work out the way I think it might?

JohnA

02-19-05, 07:39 AM

IamtheWolf

02-19-05, 09:11 AM

Cross referencing with the GWIV thread, and elsewhere, on the above subject.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5206238#post5206238

Greg Jones

02-19-05, 10:28 AM

I have the 60XS955 and had Comcast install the Cablecard last Saturday for Digital Cable Plus and the HD package. All seemed to be fine until I inventoried the channels I was actually receiving. I am receiving most of the channels I ordered, but I am not receiving ESPN HD or Discovery HD or a few others. I am receiving other HD channels in the HD group, but not all. The same is true for the "Digital Classic Plus" group. The odd thing is that the TV displays all the channel call letters, even the channels in group that I have not ordered. But when I switch to channel 202 it says it is the Discovery HD, tries to tune it in and then says "no signal".

I found the CableCard in the standard users menu and I have Reset the Cablecard several times and I still do not get these missing channels. When I Reset the Cablecard the dialog box for "Cablecard Inserted" is displayed and it says that it found so many digital channels and so many analog channels, as expected.

Comcast was scheduled to come back two days ago and they simply did not show up. So now I have to wait until next Thursday for them to try again. They did give me credit for not receiving the full package that I ordered.

I am in the Garland, TX area. Has anyone else had this problem? Have you resolved it yet? If so, how?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Buck's SCSW

02-19-05, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by Greg Jones
I have the 60XS955 and had Comcast install the Cablecard last Saturday for Digital Cable Plus and the HD package. All seemed to be fine until I inventoried the channels I was actually receiving. I am receiving most of the channels I ordered, but I am not receiving ESPN HD or Discovery HD or a few others. I am receiving other HD channels in the HD group, but not all. The same is true for the "Digital Classic Plus" group. The odd thing is that the TV displays all the channel call letters, even the channels in group that I have not ordered. But when I switch to channel 202 it says it is the Discovery HD, tries to tune it in and then says "no signal".

I found the CableCard in the standard users menu and I have Reset the Cablecard several times and I still do not get these missing channels. When I Reset the Cablecard the dialog box for "Cablecard Inserted" is displayed and it says that it found so many digital channels and so many analog channels, as expected.

Comcast was scheduled to come back two days ago and they simply did not show up. So now I have to wait until next Thursday for them to try again. They did give me credit for not receiving the full package that I ordered.

I am in the Garland, TX area. Has anyone else had this problem? Have you resolved it yet? If so, how?

Thanks in advance for your help. Yeah I have the same problem. The cable guy doesn't show up when I have an appt...

Hammer231

02-19-05, 07:41 PM

Has anyone played with the digital reality creation feature much? The owner's manual seems a bit vague about this option. Just with the limited experimenting I've done so far I haven't noticed much of a change.

jojo57

02-19-05, 08:06 PM

Digital Reality Creation technology employs an originally developed digital signal processing algorithm, whereby a super-real 4x picture resolution (1050 vertical interlace scanning lines / 1440 horizontal pixels) is created from a standard television signal (525 vertical interlace scanning lines / 720 horizontal pixels).

Squawks

02-19-05, 10:36 PM

To top off what Jojo said, DRC is only available for analog sources (not digital channels for example). I believe it still works for component inputs as well...my TV has been broken for a week now so I can't double-check on this.

I found out a few days ago that changing the lamp unit is a lot more simple that I perceived. When I skimmed through the manual in December, I thought that the whole front panel of the TV (including the screen) had to be pulled off in order to access the lamp.

That's not the case. You actually just have to pull off the bottom middle panel of the TV (which unveils a latch with the front video/audio inputs) and access to the lamp unit. Incredibly easy to do...Sony made sure that changing the lamp unit would be a non-issue and in this case, it really is.

Now, if only I had a spare lamp unit I'd be watching my TV now...but since I already paid for the EW I'm not going to spend a dime trying to service my TV.

Michael Mohrmann

02-19-05, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by Squawks
To top off what Jojo said, DRC is only available for analog sources (not digital channels for example). I believe it still works for component inputs as well...
According to the owner's manual, so long as the input source is not 480p, 720p or 1080i, the DRC feature can be used. I don't see anything in the manual that indicates that you can't apply the DRC feature to HDMI inputs, but it must be 480i through the HMDI inputs for the feature to be active.

We don't have any HMDI sources at this time, so I can't test this.

Michael

BenK

02-19-05, 11:08 PM

DRC works with HDMI and 480i.

joeren

02-20-05, 08:15 AM

Hello to all. Thanks for this great thread. Aside from an occasional personality clash it's a well of useful information. Well I finally bit the bullet, took the plunge, pulled the trigger, and put down a deposit on a 55XS955. I ordered it from a small local dealer (friend) that gave me a great price. My original plan was to go with a Samsung 5674 but after all the buzz about rainbows (which I did see but didn't find particularly objectionable) and the fact that it cost about $700 more, I changed my mind and went with another Sony. This will replace my 12 year old 32" Sony. I hope that I can be a contributor to this thread.
Cheers
Joeren

JohnA

02-20-05, 09:21 AM

Joeren - Congrats, you won't be disappointed! We love this set. What is your source for HD? The NBA weekend on TNT-HD has been fun and awesome PQ. TNT does a great job, even have HD helicopter views of the Denver area. This is a great weekend for HD, Last night had three events. NBA, college hoops, and HBO boxing all on at the same time. Luckily I have an HD-Tivo. And today to top it all off The Daytona 500 and All Star game. All while a snow storm rages outside in Western Wisconsin. Makes for a great cozy wing and beer weekend!

NoahT

02-20-05, 11:24 AM

I ordered my 60XS last week and am anxiously waiting delivery. I am getting it from an unauthorized dealer and keeping my fingers crossed.

I have an easy question for those that are familiar with HD - How can you tell what programs are HD? Are the program guides marked?

jojo57

02-20-05, 11:48 AM

when you put your eyes on HDTV you`ll know.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164671

joeren

02-20-05, 12:41 PM

JohnA
I may wait to see what I can pull OTA but I'll most likely go with Time Warner digital cable. About the only sport we watch is football and occasionally boxing so the sports packages don't have that much appeal for us. My wife and I spend a good deal of time watching movies so It should be great to finally have a big picture to go along with the big sound. Viewing distance will be about 9.5 to 10ft. Here's a link to our system pic. http://www.mybizz.net/~reynold/index.htm The Sony will fit with just under 2 inches to spare on each side of the shelf.

Cheers
Joeren

jojo57

02-20-05, 01:11 PM

Holy moly joeren I bet you can Shake the house !

wintr

02-20-05, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by AkaStp
I have been evaluating a Sony 55XS955 for 3 weeks but just returned it because of what I thought was a bad problem with SDE even as far back as 12'. But now I'm not sure if I what I was seeing was really SDE and could use some advice as I'm going nuts. Due to seeing rainbows on DLPs I would like for RP LCD to be my best choice, in particular the 55" Sony WF655 or XS955.

I'm noticing what I would describe as SDE on the 55XS955 . It appears with HD and DVD over HDMI and is visible even from 12' back. A criss-cross grid-like pattern appears in white and lighter colors during faster motion (such as when the camera moves over snow backgrounds in Cliffhanger or Vertical Limit or in light blue sky or in explosions or in the ice during ice hockey etc) but it seems to be a rather more coarse than the fine grid of SDE that you see from close up. Maybe its not SDE but some other kind of artifact that becomes apparent during faster motion. It is not SSE. When looking at static images or slower movement the "grid" is not visible.

I see it on the 55" and 60" Sony WF655s and XS955s and also on Hitachi and Panasonic LCDs. I don't see it on DLP or D-ILA sets, just on RP LCD sets. I also examined a 50" Sony RP LCD (50WE655 I think) but did not see the same effect.

Why would SDE be more apparent on fast moving scenes? As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong) SDE is a function of the tiny spaces between the pixels and is therefore static in nature and should never change and its either visible or its not depending on how far back you view from.

What am I seeing? Is it SDE or something else? Can anyone help me get this straight in my head so I can perhaps reconsider the Sony RP LCDs which are overall great sets and I would love to have one.

I have seen this effect too. To me, it can be most easily seen when playing a video game actually. It shows up on the surface of objects that are approaching the camera, such as walking towards a wall in Halo.

After studying it a bit, I think I've discovered the cause. There is some kind of color or luminance seperation that happens in the Sony scaler or on the LCD panels. It's most visible up close if you know what to look for. This is not limited to my set, I've seen it on other sets in the store now that I know where to look.

It is most apparent on light grey/colored objects that move vertically in the image. If you track them up or down the screen, you'll see the appearance of what look like horizontal "scan lines", though this isn't really an accurate name for them. If you take a look at these scan lines up close to the set, you'll see that what's actually happening is it appears there is some kind of very subtle (i.e. one-line's width) color seperation between individual horizontal lines of pixels. For instance, if the camera is panning down across someone's gray sweater you will see faint lines of red and green as the colors of the sweater "seperate" during the pan.

You can only see the actual chroma/luma seperate up close, and again it's very subtle. However, even from a distance of 10 feet this effect DOES show up as something I think most people would call "SDE." From that distance it shows up as a faint "grid like" pattern that is briefly visible on top of vertically panning objects.

This is not SSE, which is the "sparkly" effect of the lenticular screen. SSE is visible even on static images, and is most apparent in the center of the screen where the light is most focused, on a bright white image.

This is not SDE, as I think most people understand it, which is an artifact of the thin lines between the pixels and (to me, with 20:15 vision) becomes entirely invisible past 6 feet or so. I know that this isn't SDE because I can see it when I'm just a few inches from the image, where the real SDE *is* visible and this other "color seperation" effect is obviously something different.

So, what causes this? I have no idea. I figured it was just something about the Sony scaler, but if you're seeing it on other LCD sets maybe it's something inherent to LCD technology. It happens on different inputs (HDMI at 720p as well as 480i and 480p on the component inputs.)

I've thought that maybe it has something to do with the very slight lag time of the LCD panels. If the three panels had slightly different timing or lag, I could see how that would lead to a very slight seperation of the signal that could show up in panning motion where your eyes are tracking across the image.

Anyway, all that said, the effect is *really* quite subtle and shows up in less than 5% of my viewing time, I'd say. I do think that this effect may be the reason there has always been such a long standing debate about people who say they can see the "SDE" at 10+ feet vs. people who adamently deny someone's ability to see the actual pixel structure that far away. I think this effect I'm describing might actually be what those people are seeing, since it looks very much like a "grid like" structure imposed on the image.

- paul

p.s. Did I mention how subtle this effect is? :-) It only shows up on certain types of motion, with certain colors, and even then it is nearly impossible to see at anything more than 10 feet (I sit at 8 feet where it is visible, to me at least.) And despite this "problem", I am still of the strong opinion that the Sony LCD TV's (I own a 60xs955) are easily the best displays in this price range. Their color and contrast ratios are *fantastic* - when properly calibrated and hooked up to a good source (I use an HTPC) they really really look good, better than any other display that I've seen, but then, I haven't seen a Qualia in person yet. :-)

joeren

02-20-05, 02:16 PM

jojo57
Behind the right speaker is a Sunfire sub-woofer. With good material I can rattle the wine glasses in the kitchen cupboard. It's a small house though.
;>)
Joeren

wintr

02-20-05, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by AkaStp
That does sound like it. I'm glad I'm not alone. I find that it is not limited to vertical movement though. I also see it on movement in any direction. It can be seen at 12' and when you look it from close you can see it clearly on the screen. It is in addition to standard SDE and it is like an oversized SDE effect in that the grid lines are thicker and a bit more widely spaced.
I wonder if it is a bi-product of some kind of processing such as noise reduction or picture enhancement that could be reduced or eliminated by turning such processing off? Take a look at the many snow scenes in Vertical Limit or Cliffhanger, especially when there is fast motion over snow or when there are explosions.
I see it in Panny LCDs as well as the Sony WF655 and XS955. But I do not seen it in the Sony 50WE655. Maybe it has some different default processing options or a different L.E.
I do agree that it is quite subtle and only occassionally shows up on certain types of scenes.
I would also agree with your comments that (a) regular SDE is not perceivable beyond a few feet and (b) that several people who claim they see SDE at >8' and as far back as 12' maybe mistaking this effect for SDE. I am one of those people and there are a few others in recent threads on various topics, not just about the Sony RP LCDs but also the Panasonic LCDs.
Maybe TomCat will be able to shed some light on this.

I've tried messing with every setting I could find that could possibly be related to this, in both the user menus and the service menus. None of the settings seemed to have any effect on this "feature." It's dissapointing too because I think if this problem were solved, SDE would truly be invisible on the Sony at anything > 6 feet, and it would be a nearly artifact-less picture (SSE will still be there I guess, no getting around that with a lenticular screen, but SSE doesn't distract me for whatever reason whereas this "oversized SDE" thing does.)

- paul

IamtheWolf

02-20-05, 04:35 PM

Without quoting the entire passage I have this question about what you are seeing:

Do you see it for every type of input? Specifically, HD broadcasts, or only SD broadcasts?

Thanks!

wintr

02-20-05, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by IamtheWolf
Without quoting the entire passage I have this question about what you are seeing:

Do you see it for every type of input? Specifically, HD broadcasts, or only SD broadcasts?

Thanks!

I've personally seen it on both the HDMI HD input (at 720p) as well as the component input with both 480i and 480p.

- paul

IamtheWolf

02-20-05, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by wintr
I've personally seen it on both the HDMI HD input (at 720p) as well as the component input with both 480i and 480p.

- paul

Was it during a HD broadcast or on a HD channel, or while watching upscaled analog?

If DVD, where was the upscaling done - DVD or by the Sony?

Zues

02-20-05, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by wintr
I've personally seen it on both the HDMI HD input (at 720p) as well as the component input with both 480i and 480p.

- paul

Yes it is called Screen Door Effect... Like looking through a screendoor...
Call it sse or screendoor, its still the same effect... The bigger the tv the worse it gets...

jojo57

02-20-05, 06:42 PM

Are you seeing Morie?

http://www.physics.isu.edu/physdemos/waves/morie1.html

Zues

02-20-05, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by AkaStp
SSE and SDE are NOT the same effect.

To me they are... Would screen door effect really be a weakness of lcd if you couldnt see it at a normal distance?

Ive never heard of SSE in a professinal review..

Zues

02-20-05, 07:15 PM

Dont rp-crt use anti glare screens? Why is there no sse or sde with them?

jojo57

02-20-05, 07:26 PM

Maybe here:

http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/vidglos.htm?KeohiHDTV

Zues

02-20-05, 07:46 PM

Why do i have the feeling the sony qualia has the same Lenticular anti glare screen as the lcds but ill bet there is no SSE...

Zues

02-20-05, 07:58 PM

The grid is the screendoor effect, plain and simple...

RAFABAMAD

02-20-05, 08:04 PM

Guys, I've seen this too. The first time I saw this effect or artifact was with ballooning white text on a black background. You know, like the camera was zooming in on the text. I don't remember what the source was at the time, whether one of my DVD players or the built-in QAM or ATSC tuner. Another time I was watching a show I had recorded on a Panasonic DVD recorder. It happened precisely at a scene change. I could scan back and play it repeatedly and it did it every time. However, if I stepped through the scene change a frame at a time the effect or artifact would not appear. The panny is set to progressive output over component and at the time I didn't think to try it set to interlaced with the Sony doing the conversion. It's definitely not SDE. It is much larger in effect, and if I remember correctly, horizontal only.

If the following is the lowercase letter L (a solid vertical bar), this is how it would look:

▄▄▄
▄▄▄
▄▄▄
▄▄▄
▄▄▄

Look familiar?

RAF

Zues

02-20-05, 08:24 PM

Have i seen it? Like when watching hockey and the camera is moving and you see a grid like screen that doesent move? Yup... Screendoor effect?Yup.. My mits dlp did it too but was much less noticable...

BATerp

02-20-05, 08:46 PM

Hi Folks. Have never posted to his forum, but have read and learned quite a bit here. We purchased the 55 inch model of the XS955 about a month ago. We are grateful for the insights provided by the members of this forum.

I have a few questions about cable service. Our cable provider is Comcast and they installed the cable card a couple of weeks ago. Prior to that we had basic analog service.

While still on analog, the cable was attached to a power bar/surge protector and then to the tv. Reception was adequate for analog. After the cable card was installed, we noticed that reception was awful for the analog stations from 40-56 (other analog stations were OK), while very good for the digital signal and excellent for HD. Comcast came back out and tested signal strength - no problems. The reception was still bad on the analog stations.

Comcast bypassed the powerbar/surge protector and went straight to the tv cable input - problem solved. My question is - is it recommended to not use the powerbar/surge protector connection? Also, does this mean that the powerbar/surge protector is possibly defective? I guess I just can't figure why only certain stations were affected. BTW, Comcast tested all of the coax cables - not a problem there.

We are now considering getting the Comcast cable box - either Pace or SA for the on-demand features. Is there a way to use the picture in picture function by splitting the cable signal? My wife would still like to use the VCR. I thought I read in the manual that you could split the signal and run it into both the cable box and the vcr and output both to the tv and still use the picture in picture (twin view) functions.

Thanks again.

Zues

02-20-05, 08:52 PM

Zues

02-20-05, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by RAFABAMAD
Guys, I've seen this too. The first time I saw this effect or artifact was with ballooning white text on a black background. You know, like the camera was zooming in on the text. I don't remember what the source was at the time, whether one of my DVD players or the built-in QAM or ATSC tuner. Another time I was watching a show I had recorded on a Panasonic DVD recorder. It happened precisely at a scene change. I could scan back and play it repeatedly and it did it every time. However, if I stepped through the scene change a frame at a time the effect or artifact would not appear. The panny is set to progressive output over component and at the time I didn't think to try it set to interlaced with the Sony doing the conversion. It's definitely not SDE. It is much larger in effect, and if I remember correctly, horizontal only.

If the following is the lowercase letter L (a solid vertical bar), this is how it would look:

▄▄▄
▄▄▄
▄▄▄
▄▄▄
▄▄▄

Look familiar?

RAF

Hmmm im really confused :cool:

jojo57

02-20-05, 09:05 PM

Could be aliasing:see link

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=11769

Zues

02-20-05, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by BATerp
Hi Folks. Have never posted to his forum, but have read and learned quite a bit here. We purchased the 55 inch model of the XS955 about a month ago. We are grateful for the insights provided by the members of this forum.

I have a few questions about cable service. Our cable provider is Comcast and they installed the cable card a couple of weeks ago. Prior to that we had basic analog service.

While still on analog, the cable was attached to a power bar/surge protector and then to the tv. Reception was adequate for analog. After the cable card was installed, we noticed that reception was awful for the analog stations from 40-56 (other analog stations were OK), while very good for the digital signal and excellent for HD. Comcast came back out and tested signal strength - no problems. The reception was still bad on the analog stations.

Comcast bypassed the powerbar/surge protector and went straight to the tv cable input - problem solved. My question is - is it recommended to not use the powerbar/surge protector connection? Also, does this mean that the powerbar/surge protector is possibly defective? I guess I just can't figure why only certain stations were affected. BTW, Comcast tested all of the coax cables - not a problem there.

We are now considering getting the Comcast cable box - either Pace or SA for the on-demand features. Is there a way to use the picture in picture function by splitting the cable signal? My wife would still like to use the VCR. I thought I read in the manual that you could split the signal and run it into both the cable box and the vcr and output both to the tv and still use the picture in picture (twin view) functions.

Thanks again.

Consider getting voom or direc tv.... I would get voom, there is really not alot of hd worth watching on direcTv... Satelite is far better than cable..

IamtheWolf

02-20-05, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by BATerp
...Comcast bypassed the powerbar/surge protector and went straight to the tv cable input - problem solved. My question is - is it recommended to not use the powerbar/surge protector connection? Also, does this mean that the powerbar/surge protector is possibly defective? I guess I just can't figure why only certain stations were affected. BTW, Comcast tested all of the coax cables - not a problem there.

...Is there a way to use the picture in picture function by splitting the cable signal? My wife would still like to use the VCR. I thought I read in the manual that you could split the signal and run it into both the cable box and the vcr and output both to the tv and still use the picture in picture (twin view) functions.

Not sure about Comcast, but with TWC there is a diagnostic channel where you can get a read on signal strength, and other info. For me its channel 999. Maybe there is a thread for Comcast and the card (or box) to provide the info here at AVS.

Anyway, sounds like your signal strength is borderline. The Surge guard will slightly degrade the signal. Splitting the feed will do so further. If possible amp the line. I went through a similar process recently and in my case it was the cable box, not surge guard, causing the problem. I'm still going to amp the feed for further distribution in my home.

Michael Mohrmann

02-20-05, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by AkaStp
To be frank, you and I are going around in circles with this so it makes no sense to continue with such a circular argument. I don't think you are really seeing or understanding what I'm seeing. I look forward to hearing from others (aside from you) who can really see what I'm seeing. So far, two other people (not you) have confirmed the effect I'm seeing and that it is not SDE but some kind of motion induced artifact/effect.
Are you trying to convince yourself (and everyone else) that the Sony GWIVs have some sort of limitation or deficiency? Is this your way of saying you want to rid yourself of the Sony, or are you trying to find the source of the problem (which I think you have convinced yourself is the Sony GWIVs themselves) or a solution?

For the record, my wife and I are not seeing what you appear to have seen. Good luck in your search, for whatever outcome you are striving for, which is beyond my grasp at this time.

Michael

wintr

02-20-05, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by Michael Mohrmann
Are you trying to convince yourself (and everyone else) that the Sony GWIVs have some sort of limitation or deficiency? Is this your way of saying you want to rid yourself of the Sony, or are you trying to find the source of the problem (which I think you have convinced yourself is the Sony GWIVs themselves) or a solution?

For the record, my wife and I are not seeing what you appear to have seen. Good luck in your search, for whatever outcome you are striving for, which is beyond my grasp at this time.

Michael

Guys, there is no need to get defensive. I think there is a worthwhile thing here that AkaStp is investigating. If we can at least quantify it, it would definitely help explain why some people can apparently see what looks like "SDE" from as far away as 10 feet from the screen (where it should be pretty impossible to see those thin lines between the pixels.)

I can pretty easily reproduce the effect AkaStp is talking about now. With my HTPC connected, I open up an image with a particular color, light skin tones work well, and drag the image up and down on the screen slowly. If you track the image with your eyes, you will see the effect we're talking about. It appears as a type of grid overlayed on the color.

It looks like SDE, but if you actually get up really close to the screen you can see that it's something else entirely. Up close, you can see what appears to be seperate vertical bands of color - like lines of red-green-blue stacked on top of each other maybe one pixel apart. Almost as if the image is splitting up (by a single line's height) into it's seperate red/green/blue components when your eyes track something across the screen.

I don't think we're trying to find a problem where one doesn't exist. I personally would be ecstatic if this problem wasn't there and I never saw this grid appear from my seating distance of 10 feet. But it does exist, and having discovered what I describe above by viewing the image up close, I am of the opinion that this is something different from SDE.

As a side note: I recently saw a diagram of the Qualia's optical block. They make a point of displaying how the light path for each panel is routed through a series of prisms and mirrors such that the distance the light travels from the lamp, through the prisms, and finally reflecting off the panels, is identical for each of the primary colors.

I wonder if the fact that a "typical" LCD RPTV has different "light-path lenghts" for the three primary colors could actually cause the "color seperation" lines we're seeing...

- paul

Michael Mohrmann

02-20-05, 11:17 PM

Let's see if I understand correctly. There are three (maybe more?) people who have stated that they are seeing something akin to SDE and SSE on their GWIVs, but they are observing it at their viewing distances and are absolutely convinced that they aren't seeing SDE and SSE? In addition, all three individuals appear to have completely ruled out the sources as the cause of this problem? Further, utilizing all available video adjustments on their GWIVs does not resolve the problem?

Sounds like a flaw in the Sony GWIVs. http://www.forum.oxmo.org/images/smilies/SuperNul06.gif

Michael

Michael Mohrmann

02-21-05, 12:20 AM

Wow, here it was where I thought I was acknowledging a potential (design?) problem with the GWIVs (and giving a thumbs down to Sony for that), and somehow I am accused of being defensive. Just because we are unable to see it doesn't mean the problem is being made up by others.

I ran into this same situation with the Anthem AVM-20 prepro we own. Many others had (mostly software) problems with it that we did not. Only when they were able to clearly describe their setup was I able to reproduce and confirm most of their problems. In some situations, it was determined that it was how the AVM-20 was suppose to operate. At that point, you either accept it or move on.

That's what I was attempting to say (poorly, it appears) about the Sony. It just may be how the GWIVs present themselves to some people, and there may be very little that can be done about it. Or, there may be a subtle design flaw that needs to be corrected.

At this point, I have no way of reproducing the problem because I don't have a clear picture (no pun intended) of what it will take to produce the problem others are seeing. Having scrutinized the XS955s now for well over 3 months now under a variety of conditions and sources, it just may be that I am not sensitive to the problem or I don't know how to produce it.

Michael

wintr

02-21-05, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by Michael Mohrmann
Wow, here it was where I thought I was acknowledging a potential (design?) problem with the GWIVs (and giving a thumbs down to Sony for that), and somehow I am accused of being defensive. Just because we are unable to see it doesn't mean the problem is being made up by others.

I ran into this same situation with the Anthem AVM-20 prepro we own. Many others had (mostly software) problems with it that we did not. Only when they were able to clearly describe their setup was I able to reproduce and confirm most of their problems. In some situations, it was determined that it was how the AVM-20 was suppose to operate. At that point, you either accept it or move on.

That's what I was attempting to say (poorly, it appears) about the Sony. It just may be how the GWIVs present themselves to some people, and there may be very little that can be done about it. Or, there may be a subtle design flaw that needs to be corrected.

At this point, I have no way of reproducing the problem because I don't have a clear picture (no pun intended) of what it will take to produce the problem others are seeing. Having scrutinized the XS955s now for well over 3 months now under a variety of conditions and sources, it just may be that I am not sensitive to the problem or I don't know how to produce it.

Michael

That's definitely reasonable Michael.

In my opinion, if you've never seen anything resembling this SDE-type-artifacting on your TV, don't try and find it. Hopefully it's just not visible on your set, but if it is and you do "learn" to see it (in the way people learn to see the rainbow effect when it's described to them) then it may become something that's difficult to ignore.

No reason to go looking for problems. I appreciate your willingness to help, but if it were me I wouldn't try to reproduce this problem if I didn't already see it.

Unfortunately for me, it is something I see fairly often whether I'm looking for it or not - but if I had never seen it during regular viewing I wouldn't go trying to reproduce it on purpose, I'd just be enjoying my 60xs955 as is (though soon to be a Qualia 006 I hope!) :-)

- paul

jojo57

02-21-05, 09:38 AM

Could this be what your seeing,I see this on my GW,I also saw it on my samsung DLP ,I believe its my cable box.jo

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/images/dvd-benchmark-part-5-comb_galaxy_quest_large.gif

jojo57

02-21-05, 09:44 AM

I see this buzz blurr motion on Alex Trebek`s hair( THE FINE STRANDS) on Jeopardy ,It visible whether over the air or cable ,so its the way its compressed by my local ABC.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/images/dvd-benchmark-part-5-flag_drop_to_video_dinosaur_large.gif

MDJ51

02-21-05, 10:56 AM

I have the KDf-55XS955- I have noticed the blur in certain areas, but it seems diff on diff channels, some have it and some do not. I was told by comcast that if its not on every channel its the signal from that particular channel. For EX, I find CNN has more of the blur in facial area. I did alot of adjusting via the users menu and I must say everything looks much better. I'm not using the box as that makes things worse. Also turned down sharpness. If its not on every channel i doubt its the TV but the signals. Just a thought. Otherwise i adore the Tv esp HD

Gamehendge Jazz

02-21-05, 12:37 PM

Any comments on the 55XS955/60XS955 and how good of a PC PQ it can have?

Wondering if anyone can speak of specific examples, such as what video card they're using, whether DVI>HDMI, VGA>Component, or DVI>Compent, and any tweaking involved.

jojo57

02-21-05, 06:30 PM

Ok I can take it,Tell me. I found this on lcd lag could it be this? slightly smeared or blurry? guess not more of a grid were looking for.

"Traditionally, LCDs have suffered from three weaknesses: slow response time, narrow viewing angle, and poor representations of black. Slow response times cause images of fast motion--in video games or action movies, for example--to appear slightly smeared or blurry. Newer LCDs have far better response times, however, and the fast-image problem has mostly disappeared.

ehlarson

02-21-05, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by AkaStp
No, the effect I described is not a blurring, its a grid.

A grid formed around a fast moving object that is not present in static scenes sure sounds like a compression artifact to me.

As far as SDE from distances > 10', maybe some people can see it, but thier eyesight must be better than 20/10 to do so.

wintr

02-21-05, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by ehlarson
A grid formed around a fast moving object that is not present in static scenes sure sounds like a compression artifact to me.

As far as SDE from distances > 10', maybe some people can see it, but thier eyesight must be better than 20/10 to do so.

I don't think it's a a compression artifact. It shows up on multiple sources, including direct 720p HTPC input as well as video games played from an xbox or ps2.

- paul

JohnA

02-22-05, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by AkaStp
I've decided not to further pursue trying to determine the cause of the effect that I described because of the difficulties that have resulted. I will do my best to ignore it. I wouldn't want anyone to try and find it and spoil their enjoyment of this great TV. You either see it or you don't and its probably better if you don't. Hope you understand. Sorry for stirring things up.
Akastp - Thank you for not divulging the secrets of this dreaded LCD plague. I for one will sleep better at night knowing I will never know!:o

Avdad

02-22-05, 08:40 PM

:) After several months of reading, till my eyes crossed, I finally pulled the pen and signed on the line.

My many thanks to all of the folks that have attempted vicariously to make this an educated purchase.

I purchased my set at S*ars, with a price match from CC, that hasn't has any sx955s in a month, but still ran them on sale.

I promise I'll read the archives thoroughly before I embarrass myself with a stupid previously answered question and pester you with you top secret set settings.

NOT!

Put me in coach I'm ready to play.

Thanks big time,

Norm

shanewalker

02-23-05, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by Gamehendge Jazz
Any comments on the 55XS955/60XS955 and how good of a PC PQ it can have?

Wondering if anyone can speak of specific examples, such as what video card they're using, whether DVI>HDMI, VGA>Component, or DVI>Compent, and any tweaking involved.

I'm also curious about how folks have tried to hook up a computer to the Sony and with what success. I'm hoping no PC-only solutions are required (i.e. windows-centric multirez software and/or adapters)...I have a Mac laptop and maybe soon a Mac mini dedicated to iTunes serving to my A/V rack and the TV.

dromoland

02-23-05, 01:03 PM

Now that we are finished obsessing over SDE and SSE, can anyone give a recommendation for an up-scaling DVD player that works well with the xs955? I've seen a Sony model mentioned on this forum but can't recall the model.

Thanks

BenK

02-23-05, 01:28 PM

I have the upconverting Sony 975 player with the 55XS955. It looked the best running 480i and having the tv convert the signal.

akadennis

02-23-05, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by BenK
I have the upconverting Sony 975 player with the 55XS955. It looked the best running 480i and having the tv convert the signal.

I'm curious about this since I always thought it would look best at either 720p or 1080i using the HDMI hookup. How do you have this connected to the tv? component, composite or hdmi?

BenK

02-23-05, 01:45 PM

I have it running through HDMI. It was slightly sharper than component. Even though upconverting was slightly sharper it added too much noise and the color wasnt quite right. I read in a post here how the scaler in the Sony was better than any DVD and an upscaling player was of little or no benefit. I didnt believe it until I actually tried it. You'd probably get different results with a different tv.

wideamg

02-23-05, 03:17 PM

jeez you guys are a sensitive bunch. (way more than the other forums i frequent)

first you guys jumped all over me when i started this thread now i express my opinion on the styling and this?. since no one else expressed similar views as mine i guess i was way off base on the styling.

i welcome people to express their opinions. if they think my system sucks then tell me, i don't mind. BTW i never mentioned the WF (i had my first deposit on a WF).

i shall tread lightly in the future (i'm tired of apologizing).

Hammer231

02-23-05, 05:09 PM

Using an old non-progressive sony DVD player I've been very impressed with the image quality of this TV. Not quite high-def but very nice. I was considering upgrading to a newer model player with progressive scan or maybe even upconverting capability but is it worth it since these sets seem to do such a good job with just a 480i signal?

TerryJ

02-23-05, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by Hammer231
Using an old non-progressive sony DVD player I've been very impressed with the image quality of this TV. Not quite high-def but very nice. I was considering upgrading to a newer model player with progressive scan or maybe even upconverting capability but is it worth it since these sets seem to do such a good job with just a 480i signal?
I've tried an upconverting (720p) DVD player... and my current DVD player on progressive (480p) mode... neither look as good as giving it a 480i signal and letting the Sony handle everything.

The upconverting player had a (highly touted) Faroudja chip and the 480p output on my current deck was rated as good by some reviews, but neither looked as good as just feeding my 55XS955 set 480i over component. I made sure I used the Cinemotion setting... and turning the DRC (Digital Reality Creation) to lowest setting (1) for both settings (effectively reducing its effect, which might be good for helping problem signals, but not good for a clean DVD signal.)

The Sony's deinterlacer and scaler do an amazing job! Some DVD players might do a better job in general than the one you have (dealing with Chroma errors and such), but for the most part, save your money on upconverting etc. It won't look as good!

-Terry

Turd Burglar

02-23-05, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by BenK
I have it running through HDMI. It was slightly sharper than component. Even though upconverting was slightly sharper it added too much noise and the color wasnt quite right. I read in a post here how the scaler in the Sony was better than any DVD and an upscaling player was of little or no benefit. I didnt believe it until I actually tried it. You'd probably get different results with a different tv.

I have my 55XS connected via HDMI to a Denon 2910. Forgive my nooby question, but how do I know if I'm using the scaler in the TV versus the DVD player?

Thanks!

TerryJ

02-23-05, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by Turd Burglar
I have my 55XS connected via HDMI to a Denon 2910. Forgive my nooby question, but how do I know if I'm using the scaler in the TV versus the DVD player?

Thanks!
What is the Denon outputting over the HDMI? 480i? 480p? 720p? 1080i?

First off, the Sony is using its scaler at all times, because the native resolution of the TV is like 788. So, doesn't matter what you feed it, it is using its scaler in some manner. (Although I believe it's doing less "work" if you are feeding it a signal closer to native res.) If you send it a progressive signal, then the deinterlacer doesn't kick in (obviously, as the DVD player is doing the deinterlacing.)

In my personal experience, it seems that the more work I have the Sony do, the better the picture is.

-Terry

Turd Burglar

02-23-05, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by TerryJ
What is the Denon outputting over the HDMI? 480i? 480p? 720p? 1080i?

First off, the Sony is using its scaler at all times, because the native resolution of the TV is like 788. So, doesn't matter what you feed it, it is using its scaler in some manner. (Although I believe it's doing less "work" if you are feeding it a signal closer to native res.) If you send it a progressive signal, then the deinterlacer doesn't kick in (obviously, as the DVD player is doing the deinterlacing.)

In my personal experience, it seems that the more work I have the Sony do, the better the picture is.

-Terry

I think I have it outputting 1080i. I really have no clue what is best for my situation. I just assumed that my TV was 1080i, so I would have the Denon output 1080i. Is that not the best way to go?

Squawks

02-23-05, 07:03 PM

The source is 480i, so regardless of how you send it, there should theoretically be no magical improvements in picture. Whether you send the DVD to the TV in 720p or 1080i, guess what? The original source was in 480i. Garbage in, garbage out.

BUT, however, some people *may* notice an improvement when using an upscaling DVD player not because it utilizes 720p/1080i upscaling, but perhaps there is better electronics inside that enables the DVD player to better pass the signal to the TV (i.e. the HDMI cable send information digitally, and digital signals are either legible or not for the TV, contrary to analog signals traveling along a wire, which may alter the analog signals in which the TV will still unsuspectedly accept).

For you, the best way to go would be to use your own eyes, and compare between 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i all sent to your TV. Use a still image from a DVD if you must, and focus on the color, sharpness, and contrast to that of your best liking.

Back to my broken 55XS saga----
The technician from Captain Video (thank goodness they are very reputable) came over last Monday but turns out that he brought the wrong lamp unit. He thought I had a 60XBR. Not his fault, however, and turns out it was Best Buy's fault - they faxed him not only incorrect information about the TV I purchased but also an incorrect address that sent him going to the wrong apartment. Incredibly disappointing. If the dumbasses at Best Buy don't know how to transpose from paper to computer, or from one computer to another, then damn, why not just cut/paste or simpler yet, why not just transfer the entire record from one computer to another?

So now I have to wait another week or so for the correct parts to be ordered b Captain Video. I guess I might even have to miss upcoming HD events, including HD movies on ABC and FOX this weekend. I wanted to watch Independence Day (think that's FOX) this Sunday...never watched that movie and it sure sounds like a good movie to watch in HDTV with my surround sound setup.

EDIT: The technician says that he has seen many Sonys fail prematurely not because of a fault in the lamp unit, but something due to a 'lamp driver'. He actually looked at my lamp unit, and said nothing's wrong with it and it's not burnt out. I suspected it wasn't burnt out because I recall the image fading back onto my screen for a moment. So new parts for me: lamp driver and lamp unit. Technician also said most TVs perform better with the new lamp driver...I'll have to see about this.

joeren

02-23-05, 09:48 PM

I'm new to this forum and just ordered a 55XS955. To get a jump on the learning curve I downloaded the manual from the Sony website. It mentions the "power save" function. Has anyone used this mode? Would it save on lamp live. Polarizer life? Would it improve or degrade PQ?

Thanks
Joeren

ellisr63

02-23-05, 10:10 PM

Just got my 60xs955 Monday. Great picture

TerryJ

02-23-05, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Turd Burglar
I think I have it outputting 1080i. I really have no clue what is best for my situation. I just assumed that my TV was 1080i, so I would have the Denon output 1080i. Is that not the best way to go?
Yeah... the Sony's native resolution is not 1080, so sending the TV a 1080i picture is not necessarily best. As others have suggested, it's best to try sending all the various scanrates to see what you like best. HOWEVER, remember that each scanrate needs to be setup differently. For example, when I switch from 480i and 480p, the brightness/contrast needs to be setup completely differently.

I have a Pioneer 578a, and noticed a HUGE improvement with 480i vs. 480p. The 480i was much better. This is because the deinterlacer in the Sony is great compared to what is in the Pioneer (and even one "upconverting" DVD player I tried.) I guess it makes sense. The TV that costs thousands should have a better deinterlacer than a $150 DVD player! (If only it was that easy...) However, your Denon might do just as well or better as the circuits in the Sony. Time to experiment.

Just don't discount sending a 480i as an option. For me, it gave the best picture.

-Terry

DaverJ

02-23-05, 11:41 PM

Today I received component cables to attach my Gamecube to my 60XS955. I correctly set them up by pressing B the first time I powered on with the cables. I launched Resident Evil 4 and it asked if I wanted to enable progressive mode- I selected yes. The set switched to 480p and I started the game. Why am I posting...?

I'm disappointed.

Everywhere I look I read about how great progressive mode, that it's a step up from interlaced mode. But now everything I've tested- my DVD player, my Xbox and now my PS2 and Gamecube... ALL LOOK BETTER AT 480i! I especially notice it with text on screen- it's somewhat blurrier in progressive mode.

What am I missing? Do I have something set wrong on my 60XS? Why is progressive mode so desirable?

Is anyone using 480p on their 55/60XS955 via gaming, DVD or whatnot, and they think it's noticeably better than 480i??? What is it that's better? What can I look at to test to the two modes and prove to myself what I read all the time... that progressive mode is an improvement over interlaced on this set?

drwtsn32

02-24-05, 12:20 AM

DaverJ...you're not missing anything. This TV just kicks ass at converting 480i to 480p using its internal deinterlacer.

Just like you, I was disappointed when I first tried DVD in 480p. And PS2 in 480p. Both looked worse than 480i. Now the Gamecube looks fine to me in 480p so that's what I use. Same with the Xbox (you should see 720p). Also, I think moving from s-video to component helps even if you are only using 480i, although I have not compared them really closely.

TerryJ

02-24-05, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by DaverJ
Is anyone using 480p on their 55/60XS955 via gaming, DVD or whatnot, and they think it's noticeably better than 480i??? What is it that's better? What can I look at to test to the two modes and prove to myself what I read all the time... that progressive mode is an improvement over interlaced on this set?
I think that we should all feel lucky that this set kicks butt... and has a better deinterlacer/scaler than most DVD players do. I've experimented with Avia test patterns, and various DVDs, and setting the DVD player to send 480i (over component) is just flat out better/clearer than anything else I send to the TV. And the result really does rival some HD stuff... coming from just a $150 dvd player sending 480i over component. Amazing.

Now, I haven't tried gaming consoles at 480p other than my Xbox. Logically, you'd want to send a gaming console signal as progressive because the game isn't being "deinterlaced", but rather sending a pure progressive signal. That's my assumption anyway. (I haven't tried my PS2 yet with the set, as I haven't played anything recently other than Halo2 on Xbox.)

I suspect on a lot of "lesser" sets, a progressive scan signal from a DVD player might make the picture better, because they skimped on the built-in scaler/deinterlacer. Bottom line... all I can say is... what a great TV set, Sony!

-Terry

Squawks

02-24-05, 01:26 AM

Many gamemakers actually base their video effects by exploiting the interlaced signal. When they have the console output progressive video, some of the intended video features are disabled. Not many games utilize the downside of interlaced signals to achieve video features, however.

The argument for 480i and 480p isn't so great for the 55XS because, like others have said, the Sony has a great built-in deinterlacer. My DVD player too looks 'better' when sending an interlaced signal.

You should not focus on the advantages of 480p over 480i...improvements should be minimal. Now, on the other hand, 720p or 1080i will be HUGE improvement over 480i, especially if the console has the capabilities for full HDTV support.

GT4 for the PS2, for example, is the first, true PS2 HDTV game that supports 1080i. While I have yet to test this on the 55XS, somebody else compared 480 with 1080i and the difference was only subtle when zoomed in (there is a bit more sharpness and a bit more detail, but it's subtle).

Most Xbox game you will notice a dramatic difference between 480 and 720/1080...as Xbox is superior than the PS2 hardware-wise and can thus push more graphics...the Xbox uses a single, buffer processor while PS2 utilizes dual (weaker) processors.

No worries, of course. At the end of this year (or early next year), the successors of Xbox, PS2, and GameCube will all be released. They are all expected to be *fully* HDTV compatible (including 1080p). It will be one hell of a merry christmas...as HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray players are expected to hit the markets by then too.

DaverJ

02-24-05, 08:28 AM

Thanks for your replies....

When I first got the 60XS I had to test out some 720p Xbox games, and WOW...it's hard to go back to 480i/p. And in my initial experiments with DVD I kept wanting to go with Progressive because all the information that says it's "better". But all my tests kept pointing back to 480i.

So I don't know why I ordered the component cables for the Gamecube (at a reasonable expense), but I guess I was still foolishly hoping that component would be better. It's not, and I even went into the dashboard of my Xbox and turned off 480p because I have decided on the following statement:

On the 55/60XS955, 480i is superior to 480p and should always be used if given the option."

Does anyone challenge that statement?

BenK

02-24-05, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Turd Burglar
I think I have it outputting 1080i. I really have no clue what is best for my situation. I just assumed that my TV was 1080i, so I would have the Denon output 1080i. Is that not the best way to go?

As a side note to the upconverting. I exchanged my 55XS955 for the Mits 62725 which I got yesterday. Using the same Sony 975, upconverting the image to 720p through HDMI provided a slight improvement to 480i but didnt have the added noise or color problems I had with the 55XS955. I originally thought it was the player causing this but it turns out the 55XS955 seemed to be adding the noise and color issues. I can only assume theres some extra conversion causing the added noise or maybe the Mits is doing less conversion. Thoughts?

drwtsn32

02-24-05, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by DaverJ
On the 55/60XS955, 480i is superior to 480p and should always be used if given the option."

Does anyone challenge that statement?

Yes, 480p should be used if it's the *native* format. Likewise 480i should be used when that is the native format of the source material.

DVD's native format is 480i. I would have thought video game consoles' native format would be progressive, but my experience with the PS2 seems to contradict that (but I have only tried one game in 480p on the PS2).

To me 480p looks great on the gamecube and xbox. Monkey Ball 2 on the gamecube.. simply stunning at 480p 16:9! I wonder if it depends on the game?

DaverJ

02-24-05, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by drwtsn32
Yes, 480p should be used if it's the *native* format. Likewise 480i should be used when that is the native format of the source material.

To me 480p looks great on the gamecube and xbox. Monkey Ball 2 on the gamecube.. simply stunning at 480p 16:9! I wonder if it depends on the game?

Good post, and the logic seems to make sense. But let me ask you this... when the Gamecube displays text asking if you want to display progressive and you select yes, the TV switches to progressive. To me it seems the confirmation text after the switch look worse (blurrier) than the text asking you if you want to make the switch- do you find this to be the case?

Also, have you compared Monkey Ball 2 at 480i 16:9 and you notice a big difference?

shanewalker

02-24-05, 10:41 AM

I'm glad to see some discussion of game console hook-up, but still wondering if/how folks are hooking up their computers to the XS955 for web browsing, etc. Anyone have experience/advice on this?

drwtsn32

02-24-05, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by DaverJ
Also, have you compared Monkey Ball 2 at 480i 16:9 and you notice a big difference?
I would have to do more testing to see how much of a difference I see between 480i and 480p on the gamecube. But from the games I've played, it is definitely not blurrier.

Now on the PS2... I tested by putting Ratchet & Clank 2 in progressive mode. It definitely got blurrier. I should actually try other PS2 games before making a sweeping generalization that the PS2 sucks at progressive.

I guess the point is use whatever mode looks better. It is lame to have paid $20-$30 for component cables when progressive sucks, but maybe switching to component from s-video/composite gives you a visual boost even at 480i. I'm not entirely sure as I switched to component cables as soon as I got the TV.

On a similar note, just as this TV has a kick-ass de-interlacer, it has an awesome comb filter. This means that you should normally use composite instead of S-video! (Still use component for sources that have that type of connection, of course.)

This TV is so awesome! :)

DaverJ

02-24-05, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by drwtsn32

Now on the PS2... I tested by putting Ratchet & Clank 2 in progressive mode. It definitely got blurrier. I should actually try other PS2 games before making a sweeping generalization that the PS2 sucks at progressive.

Thanks for your input... I was also using Ratchet and Clank 2 to test my new PS2 component cable I got with the Gamecube component cable. I found little to no difference between interlace and progressive, but wasn't that upset because the PS2 component cable cost me about $7 as opposed to the $35 I spent on the Gamecube cable.

But I agree... I need to do some more testing before I write off 480p mode entirely, but what I've done so far leads be to believe 480p isn't an improvement on this TV over 480i, *even for 480p native sources*.

I also agree that this must be an excellent TV if it does 480i so well that 480p doesn't matter at all!

drwtsn32

02-24-05, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by DaverJ
But I agree... I need to do some more testing before I write off 480p mode entirely, but what I've done so far leads be to believe 480p isn't an improvement on this TV over 480i, *even for 480p native sources*.
If it's truly 480p native, it should definitely be better to feed 480p to the TV. The question is...are game consoles native 480p? Or only certain games? I don't have the answer to that.

Funny that you didn't notice Ratchet & Clank getting blurry in 480p. I'll have to try it again after tweaking my settings. (I have since put the TV in "Pro" mode and calibrated the settings... maybe that has an effect.)

Personally I can't wait for next-gen consoles. I am hoping that most/all games will be either 720p or 1080i.

DaverJ

02-24-05, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by drwtsn32
If it's truly 480p native, it should definitely be better to feed 480p to the TV. The question is...are game consoles native 480p? Or only certain games?

I believe it's up to the software... if the game is written to have a progressive mode, then the console will display native 480p.

I guess my argument is that 480p might be an improvement on a non-fixed pixel display such as an HD CRT, but not for fixed pixel displays like our 55/60XS955. *My* testing leads me to believe that because everything on this TV is converted to 768p (788p?), the difference between 480i native and 480p native is negligible and in fact native 480p might look a little worse.

I would love for someone to post pictures or give me a test that can disprove my theory. I want to believe 480p, native or otherwise, is better than "old" 480i. I just haven't found this to be the case.

Turd Burglar

02-24-05, 02:36 PM

Thanks everyone for your answers to my question. I'll play around with my Denon to see which looks best. I'm not a videophile so I think last time I tried that out, I didn't see much of a difference.

I did have a question about the Xbox though - I enabled all the various interlaced and progressive modes in the Xbox menu I think. Should I be setting one as the standard for my XS?

Sorry, I'm still not fully up to speed with all this interlacing stuff, though I'm enjoying the hell out of my 55XS :)

DaverJ

02-24-05, 02:48 PM

Turd... After my experiment, I have turned off the 480p mode. The Xbox will put out various resolutions based on the highest your display can handle. So if the game supports 720p and you tell the Xbox that your set can display 720p, that's what it outputs... same with 1080i.

The reason I turned off 480p is because a lot of games fail to trigger the widescreen 16:9 mode in 480p but have no problems in 480i.

Turd Burglar

02-24-05, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by DaverJ
Turd... After my experiment, I have turned off the 480p mode. The Xbox will put out various resolutions based on the highest your display can handle. So if the game supports 720p and you tell the Xbox that your set can display 720p, that's what it outputs... same with 1080i.

The reason I turned off 480p is because a lot of games fail to trigger the widescreen 16:9 mode in 480p but have no problems in 480i.

Thanks Daverj - I'll try that out. But can't you get around the widescreen mode by putting the TV on full mode?

DaverJ

02-24-05, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Turd Burglar
But can't you get around the widescreen mode by putting the TV on full mode?

Yep... but my Xbox shares inputs with other devices so I didn't want to set it to be always in Full mode, and I wanted to avoid having to figure out if a game supports 16:9 or not when I first launch it. There's no detective work in 480i.

JohnA

02-24-05, 04:12 PM

I'm not a gamer but my 22 year-old is big time. Last night he comes to my house looking all excited and has his PS2 in hand. Says "Dad need to hook this up to your 55XS now". "Whats the special event son". "I just bought GT4 and it is the first real HD game for PS2 he says." "alright son lets give it a whirl".

Proceeds to plug it all in. "Dad you got an extra optical sound plug?" "sure son here you go". The picture comes on and the opening race scene comes to life in 5.1. "WOW awesome son". "You ain't seen nothing yet Dad that scene is not in HD". Goes into the setting, chooses 1080i. Bingo 16:9 HD racing. I must say for an old guy the whole thing was very cool. He even got me crashing! The car selection is amazing, he said there are over 700 models to chose from. The picture was very good for a game I guess (don't have much experience) but in the picture details there was quit a bit of shimmering when driving fast. I assume it is the best the PS2 is capable of.
Anyway, just thought I'ld share as it was a pretty neat experience.

drwtsn32

02-24-05, 04:19 PM

DaverJ, I'm going to experiment some more with 480p vs 480i on the XBox. I also noticed that it doesn't autodetect 16:9 when in 480p mode. Dumb xbox!

JohnA, I heard GT4 supports 1080i. Amazing .. never expected the PS2 to support that resolution.

DaverJ

02-24-05, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by drwtsn32
DaverJ, I'm going to experiment some more with 480p vs 480i on the XBox. I also noticed that it doesn't autodetect 16:9 when in 480p mode.

Great, I would love to hear some more input on this.

One thing to keep in mind is the picture might look a little different (i.e. black level) because of the extra tweaks that can be done to interlaced mode. So each one can be made to look good... but my point is, on this TV and maybe all fixed-pixel displays, the 480p mode is unnecessary.

TerryJ

02-24-05, 05:18 PM

So... for the PS2... do you just need their "component" connection pack for the PS2 to push 1080i (with GT4)? There isn't any other special HDTV pack, right?

-Terry

Hammer231

02-24-05, 05:20 PM

Now I really want to try out GT4 on my 55XS955! Guess I'll finally have to spring for that PS2 component cable.
As a side note, has anyone compared the PQ between component and Svideo connections on this set? I know component should offer the better picture but to my eyes I prefer the look of the S video having compared the 2 back to back on separate inputs. No matter how I've adjusted the picture settings I find myself going back to the S video. It just seems a bit sharper with more vivid colors. Not a huge difference but definitely noticable. I don't have a logical explanation for this but this has been my experience.

PackFan

02-24-05, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by drwtsn32
DaverJ, I'm going to experiment some more with 480p vs 480i on the XBox. I also noticed that it doesn't autodetect 16:9 when in 480p mode. Dumb xbox!

JohnA, I heard GT4 supports 1080i. Amazing .. never expected the PS2 to support that resolution.

The "support" for 1080i for GT4 is not entirely real. It upconverts 480i to 1080i; it is not truly running the game at 1080i.

From what I have heard, things like jagged lines are much more apparent because of the upconversion.

drwtsn32

02-24-05, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by DaverJ
but my point is, on this TV and maybe all fixed-pixel displays, the 480p mode is unnecessary.
I don't buy that reasoning... it still seems that you should feed the TV the native resolution of the source material. If native is 480p, it can't be good to have the source interlaced to 480i then sent to the TV where it de-interlaces it!

Still I can't explain why 480p looks so much worse for you from various sources. Maybe you were on to something... progressive mode disables DRC and other features. Perhaps your set doesn't have both modes calibrated... I don't know.

I'll try to post later tonight after I run some more tests on all three consoles.

drwtsn32

02-24-05, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by PackFan
The "support" for 1080i for GT4 is not entirely real. It upconverts 480i to 1080i; it is not truly running the game at 1080i.
I was afraid of that. If it's doing an upconversion, it probably will look worse on this TV than standard 480 line output.

Oh well... I can't imagine GT4 is nearly as fun as Burnout 3 anyway. :)

DaverJ

02-24-05, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by drwtsn32
I don't buy that reasoning... it still seems that you should feed the TV the native resolution of the source material. If native is 480p, it can't be good to have the source interlaced to 480i then sent to the TV where it de-interlaces it!

That's my dilemma... I *want* native 480p to look better than native 480i. And when I say things look worse at 480p, it's minor and really only noticeable with the sharpness of text. I'll bet if I tweaked 480p native I could get it to look as good as 480i, but since Xbox games aren't guaranteed 480p and I'm sharing the input with 480i sources- I'm just saying screw 480p and stick with "just-as-good-looking" 480i... unless I get proof that 480p is worth the effort.

drwtsn32

02-24-05, 06:20 PM

DaverJ, what are your video settings? Are you in "Pro" mode or "Standard"? What about the settings on the Advanced page?

drwtsn32

02-24-05, 10:17 PM

Ok, I tested some games on the consoles. In all cases I am using OEM component cables. The TV is always on the same input so it always has the same display settings. (Pro mode)

PS2: I only have two games that support 480p. Ratchet & Clank 2 and 3. In both cases 480i is much sharper.

Gamecube: I tested Zelda Windwaker, Monkeyball 2, and the Zelda Collectors disc. In ALL cases 480p looked sharper than 480i. When playing "old school" Zelda 1 from the collectors disc, there was an enormous difference with 480p. (What's funny is when I disable progressive, Zelda 1 runs at 240p!)

XBox: I tested only Ninja Gaiden so far, but it is DEFINITELY sharper in 480p mode compared to 480i. As others have pointed out, the TV does not detect 16:9 in 480p mode so I have to put it in "Full" mode (which is actually my default for 4:3 content). I haven't tested any other XBox games yet... time for dinner. :P

DaverJ

02-24-05, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by drwtsn32
XBox: I tested only Ninja Gaiden so far, but it is DEFINITELY sharper in 480p mode compared to 480i. As others have pointed out, the TV does not detect 16:9 in 480p mode so I have to put it in "Full" mode (which is actually my default for 4:3 content). I haven't tested any other XBox games yet... time for dinner. :P

Thanks for your tests... I don't have access to the HD set tonight because of TV show viewing, but I will post my settings for gaming over the weekend.

Hey Doc... would there be any way for you to post pics of comparisons between 480p and 480i? I'll do the same and maybe convince myself that 480p is worthwhile... :)

drwtsn32

02-24-05, 10:48 PM

DaverJ, I was trying to figure out how to take pics... I just don't know how they will turn out, or if you'll be able to see the difference.

I'm guessing the differences we see are because of differences with our display settings on the TV. Are you running Standard or Pro? (Standard by default is much sharper than Pro.)

DaverJ

02-24-05, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by drwtsn32

I'm guessing the differences we see are because of differences with our display settings on the TV. Are you running Standard or Pro? (Standard by default is much sharper than Pro.)

I think I'm running my input 5 in Pro, which shares all game consoles, DirecTivo and my DVD player running through a Denon receiver via component cables. But I did try the Gamecube and PS2 on input 6... but I didn't tweak the settings at all.

I'll do more experimenting over the weekend with more games and try to see if I can post my findings in pictures.

Thanks again for your help and interest in this issue!

joeren

02-25-05, 07:05 AM

OK, I'll ask again. Has anyone, does anyone use the "Power Saver" mode on their XS955? Any advantages in picture quality or black detail?
Thanks
Joeren

DaverJ

02-25-05, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by joeren
OK, I'll ask again. Has anyone, does anyone use the "Power Saver" mode on their XS955? Any advantages in picture quality or black detail?
Thanks
Joeren

Yes, I think most people who are tweakers turn the Power Saver mode on. Almost everyone I can remember posting their settings all have Power Saver mode ON.

Avdad

02-25-05, 09:05 AM

My youngest is a plebe at the US Naval Academy and will be home for spring break in a couple weeks to get some much deserved chill time. I want to rent a game machine for him to use while he is home and would appreciate any opinions on which machine and games to provide. The games that he has now, on PC are Ghost Recon, Half Life 2, Warcraft and several other rpgs that I can recall right now.

We take delivery of our 60SX955 a couple days before he is to get home.

Thanks,

Norm

JohnA

02-25-05, 10:19 AM

joeren - Yes, I use the reduced power setting. I find the picture is excellent in this mode. The standard mode is too bright for me especially in darken rooms. Plus the lamp should last somewhat longer I would think although I have not seen any data to substantiate this.

drwtsn32

02-25-05, 10:28 AM

Hmm..I've been using standard mode. I will have to try the power saving mode.

PackFan

02-25-05, 11:30 AM

So has everyone come to a concensus on the best advanced settings for the best black level/shadow detail?

denverb2b

02-25-05, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by TerryJ
Yeah... the Sony's native resolution is not 1080, so sending the TV a 1080i picture is not necessarily best. As others have suggested, it's best to try sending all the various scanrates to see what you like best. HOWEVER, remember that each scanrate needs to be setup differently. For example, when I switch from 480i and 480p, the brightness/contrast needs to be setup completely differently.

I have a Pioneer 578a, and noticed a HUGE improvement with 480i vs. 480p. The 480i was much better. This is because the deinterlacer in the Sony is great compared to what is in the Pioneer (and even one "upconverting" DVD player I tried.) I guess it makes sense. The TV that costs thousands should have a better deinterlacer than a $150 DVD player! (If only it was that easy...) However, your Denon might do just as well or better as the circuits in the Sony. Time to experiment.

Just don't discount sending a 480i as an option. For me, it gave the best picture.

-Terry

On my Sony 975 dvd player it makes a big difference through HDMI set to 1080. Also on OTA channels using a normal antenna and the tuner im picking up a channel that has 720 and pbs that has 1080 and the 1080 is absolutely amazing and alot better then the 720 channel.

Maybe im not understanding right are you guys saying even if im watching say for example PBS and it says 1080 in the display my tv really isnt showing 1080 because its always goes back to its native resolution? If thats what everyone is saying thenwhy is a 1080 display say through antenna or HD sat so much better than 480 or 720.

If im still not makin sense im asking when the source is 480 my tv upconverts it to 720 or its native resolution and when its 1080 it takes it down to its native resolution?

Squawks

02-25-05, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by PackFan
So has everyone come to a concensus on the best advanced settings for the best black level/shadow detail?

For the adanced setting, it is simple. The Black Corrector will make your blacks appear more black, but that seems to be based heavily on a relative scale. However, making your blacks more black will increase black crush.

The Gamma Corrector will reduce black crush, i.e. increase shadow detail. But, it will give you poorer black levels, making the blacks brighter/gray.

Both of these options oppose each other. It would make no sense to use both at the same time. Use one or the other, to whatever your preferences.

Denver, no matter what the source is, the TV will scale it to 768, which is the TV's native resolution. Your assumption that 1080 is far superior than 720 may be elusive, because I know for my own 55XS that both 1080i and 720p are extremely comparable and perhaps identical from my normal viewing distances, when both sources are excellent quality. Of course, it depends on many things. I have the coax deliver the raw, native signal to my TV. You may be using an STB set to throughput data at a 720 or 1080. Set it to 'native' if there's such an option available.

jojo57

02-25-05, 10:41 PM

Squawks

02-25-05, 10:53 PM

I'd like for something more knowledgeable on this topic to jump in, if possible.

But I somewhat agree with Jo - I think it would be better for the TV to downscale 1080i images to 768 as opposed to scaling 720 to 768 (and thus making up for the 'extra' material. Don't take my word for it, though.

EDIT: I cannot tell a difference between 720p or 1080 signals when viewing high quality programs. I don't have to go through an STB, which is known to increase artifacts/noise in the signal (there is an extra a/d and/or d/a conversion(s) involved most of the time).

TerryJ

02-26-05, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by denverb2b
On my Sony 975 dvd player it makes a big difference through HDMI set to 1080. Also on OTA channels using a normal antenna and the tuner im picking up a channel that has 720 and pbs that has 1080 and the 1080 is absolutely amazing and alot better then the 720 channel.

Maybe im not understanding right are you guys saying even if im watching say for example PBS and it says 1080 in the display my tv really isnt showing 1080 because its always goes back to its native resolution? If thats what everyone is saying thenwhy is a 1080 display say through antenna or HD sat so much better than 480 or 720.

If im still not makin sense im asking when the source is 480 my tv upconverts it to 720 or its native resolution and when its 1080 it takes it down to its native resolution?
Everything coming into the set gets converted to the set's native resolution... which is 788p. If you're putting in 1080i... it's getting downconverted... if you're putting in 720p... it's getting upconverted. If you're putting in 480i... it's getting upconverted.

Regarding the HDTV broadcasts that are looking better at 1080i... it could be that those particular shows just plain look better, or that station is doing less compression. It could ALSO be that your set just happens to be setup better when handling the 1080i scanrate. When an ISF calibration person does a calibration on the set, they have to adjust for EACH scanrate (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i), because the settings are slightly different for each. (I am assuming you did not have your set calibrated.)

Bottom line... if you like what you see at 1080i... by all means continue doing what gives you the best picture!

However, you might think about getting the 720p and other scanrates calibrated, too.

-Terry

drhollen

02-26-05, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by DaverJ
That's my dilemma... I *want* native 480p to look better than native 480i. And when I say things look worse at 480p, it's minor and really only noticeable with the sharpness of text. I'll bet if I tweaked 480p native I could get it to look as good as 480i, but since Xbox games aren't guaranteed 480p and I'm sharing the input with 480i sources- I'm just saying screw 480p and stick with "just-as-good-looking" 480i... unless I get proof that 480p is worth the effort.

I think the one thing that is making this possible is the ability to tweak the inputs at 480i with the DRCv1 settings on the XS955 series. All of these settings are disabled for 480p and higher. I have my regular DirecTiVo on 480i with S-Video, and I've fiddled with the DRC settings quite a bit and have gotten the picture to the way I want it (sort of smooth, but sharp, if that makes any sense). If I record the same DirecTV show on my HD TiVo (the show is a non-HD show on a regular DTV channel), but the HD TiVo is outputting at 1080i over HDMI, the show looks worse. This perplexed me a bit until I set my HD TiVo to output at 480i and then the DRC settings were enabled and I fiddled with the settings until I got them as good if not better than the regular TiVo. Regular DTV signal is so compressed and blocky.

I haven't done this with my Xbox yet, but I think I will. I'll turn of my 480P setting in the XBOX and just let the TV do the tweaking - there really is no more info being sent. For my 720P games (X-Men Legends) and 1080i games (MX Unleased), I'll let them come in at their higher resolutions. I'll pick REAL resolution over DRCv1 anyday, but for 480p games, there is no more pixels than 480i. I'm thinking that I can de-jaggify the Xbox at 480i with DRCv1.

A friend has a Qualia 006 on order, and in our discussions he says Sony's DRCv2 (better than in the XS955 series which is DRCv1), it is so good, that most of the regular DVD players are better left to 480i - let the expensive TV deinterlace it using DRCv2. I have a Panasonic XP30 DVD player and noticed very little difference between 480i and 480p - I leave it on 480p since I think the credits scroll a bit better in that mode - otherwise, I couldn't really see much difference. Since DVDs are natively 480i anyway, the toss up is whether we think the DVD player can de-interlace better than our TV. I've thought that de-interlacing closer to the source would be the way to go, but the TV is more tweakable to the way I like things. The good news is that the DVD output is so far superior to regular DirecTV output that it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference.