Seems to me, that's normally the way it works...Law of diminishing returns. But 20% is actually quite a jump from something as good as the 5900.

Plus the fact that no one is making anyone buy one.

Me, I'm tickled with mine.

I still haven't received my 5910. It appears to be backlogged. My projector (sime 2 300e) & screen (Silverstar) are up & running, and we watched a couple movies last night on my Sony DVP-7000 (comp vid). The 7000 came before the 9000 progressive scan unit. I thought Fifth Element looked great, but Jurassic Lost World was so so. I expect the 5910 to be a big leap in quality over the 7000, especially on those DVDs that seem to have less than perfect recordings. I'll give a review after I've had a chance to compare them.

BTW I think that a 10-20% improvement over the 5900 is quite substantial. It's when it's 5% that I really start questionning price. If I can see the difference and it creates a more enjoyable viewing experience, than it's worth it. AND it's really worth it when others notice the improvements. But then again, that's if you can blow a couple more grand$$.

Brought home "The Bluegrass Sessions" Bela Fleck DVD-A last night.

To my great dissapoinment, it refused to play, displaying a "00Hrs00min...etc" signal in the display...

After about 15 tries, it made a funny noise and started to play, but only 2 Ch through the analog outs. Got multi-channel after switching to digital out (Co-ax), but after playing with some other settings--mostly video--it hung up again, then began making loud, sharp popping noises.

Needless to say, I shut it off.

After that, it played other discs just fine.

Anyone have any thoughts on whether this is an issue with the player or the disc.?

I believe I had one other Bela Fleck --2 ch--disc hang up, but then it played fine without the bad noises.

Thanks for your thoughts

...and reading the teeny-tiny print:

"This disc plays three ways: Advanced resolution Stereo-Advanced Res. surround sound-DVD-Video Compatible Dolby Digital...Note: This disc will only play on playere with a DVD logo."

The disc has logos for Dolby digital, DVD Audio, HDCD, and "Advanced Resolution". It is a Warner Brothere recording.

I took it to my dealer this AM, and it played fine on a 3910...The HDCD light came on--He was out of 5910's.

Any of you guys have any problems with your 5910's playing some formats?

Thanks

Does anyone know of a dealer with the 5910 available at a reduced price (not MSRP)? Looks like Crutchfield has them in stock but at MSRP.

Didn't mean to start a "ones and zeros" debate and people making assessments as to whether I was imagining or making things up to suit my expectations of this player. I don't officially own it or have paid for either one of them. I do have players back to back on the same processor and same set of cables although I need to exchange the HDMI/DVI cable for video.
I do agree with the assessment that most players do sound the same and that incremental improvements in digital sound does not necessarily make a film experience any better than what's in the content.
However, I'm extremely picky about movie soundtracks, and even though it doesn't make a difference to my audience since the experience is already an improvement over what they normally hear, as the owner of the system, I'm very much tuned into these "incremental" imrovements, however little impact they might have on the overall listening/viewing experience.
That being said, my opinions are just that - my opinions on the 5910 as having subtle, yet defineable audio improvements over its coax digital outputs in my sound system. Listening tests the same: I take a variety of sources, diaglogue heavy, some with a lot of noise and action, some that contain hard to discern "whispers' and muttering and score them based on how well these difficult dialogue passeges come through. It's very anal, but that's how I critique a sound system. All things being equal with the exception of the 3910 and 5910, I grew accustomed enough with both players to make the dilineation in the sound between the two when it comes to movie soundtracks. I don't generalize based on listening to different source material or new releases of the week.
I should have clarified that in my "opinion" post on the player before others started to post what was real or imagined.
Elbert

I have the 3910 SDI-480i out into a Iscan HD.
Picture is very good.
Will 5910 DVI 480p into the iscanHD be worth the upgrade?

Bokes, I've read great reviews on the iScan line. No offense but the 5910 should not require the iScan HD, nor the iScan HD+ (dvi/hdmi hdcp compliant). BTW only the iScan HD+ is HDCP compliant with DVI & HDMI. The iScan HD is not hdcp compliant for DVI or HDMI and thus it'll simply pass the signal straight through to the projector to handle. The 5910's electronics are cutting edge, and so there shouldn't be any significant improvement. Why squander big bucks for the 5910 and then bypass some of its high end functions to iScan. I would look to the iScan HD+ for DVD players that can benefit from the improved functionality of the iScan HD+, as well as utilize it as a central hub for Satellite, cable, vcr, computer, etc.

Can anyone build on this?

From what Kris Deering said, the only reason other than what you mentioned is if you have a non-standard--i.e. other than 720p/1080i-display, as the 5910 will not support these.

Other than that, it seems obvious to go with one or the other, but not both.

Search earlier in this thread for a more complete discussion.

I think I answered my own question from earlier...Bad disc.

I played it again tonight. It did the same thing in exactly the same part of cut 3..It was probably just a coincidence last night that it happened while I was playing with settings.

Thanks.
So it sounds like a 5910 will give better results than my current 3910 SDI mod with iscanHD+.
(I do get some minor noise with the 3910)

I am going to order a 5910 and give it a test run.
I know crutchfield is a trusted store, but their prices seems high when I do a price compare search. ($600 difference).
How worried should I be about Gray market Denons?
And how will I know if I bought a gray market player?

And how will I know if I bought a gray market player?
Verify that the seller is an authorized Denon dealer/reseller. On Audiogon an authorized Denon dealer claims to have *one* for sale at $800 below MRSP.

larry

Above all, check with the manufacturer. Don't take a dealer's word for it. Some do lie. :)

Today I took the A1XV (5910 in Europe) to the dealer to install the region free firmware. :) :)
Unfortunately I couldn't get hold of the firmware CDR. :( :(

Is there any way to check the firmware on the 5910?
I would like to know what version they installed on my player.

I have the 3910 SDI-480i out into a Iscan HD.
Picture is very good.
Will 5910 DVI 480p into the iscanHD be worth the upgrade?My goodness NO. If you do not have a display which accepts a digital video input(DVI/HDCP or HDMI), then the 3910 will offer an equivalent pic via the iScan HD.

The best pic for those of us who are the most loyal and early, but screwed by Hollywood, HDTV adopters, is probably found by using an older 480p unit like the Denon 1600/Panasonic or an early model Zenith DVB318 or HD1000, or a Chinese single chip model, or finally, by using a modded to SDI output DVD player with the iScan HD using the SDI input board.

Then again, I just received a HDCP compatible DVI-D to VGA/RGBHV converter to try with upconverted HDMI/DVI-D output from a newer DVD player with my non-digital input HDTV.

Stay tuned for more hope for us folks screwed by Hollywood's paranoia.

<<
In the user memory settings I recommend setting the detail enhancer to 1 and the NR filter to 1 as well. With my tests this resulted in the best images. All other settings should be left in their default settings (with the exception of contrast to -2 ONLY IF USING DVI or HDMI!!!). Use your display controls for any tweaks you need to do after that point.
>>

I am using HDMI and I am about to calibrate my display. Can anyone confirm that I need to set contrast to -2 still? My player was built in Dec. 04.

Thanks!

-Brian

Sure do. I just checked the latest firmware and it doesn't seem to be different.

Thanks.

Also, there was a "Standard" and "Enhanced" setting if I remember correctly. I assume I leave it at "Standard" which, I believe, is O IRE.

-Brian

I was right about Bela Fleck DVD-A...

Exchanged for a new copy today and it played fine.

Not too impressed with "Advanced Resolution" DVD-Audio, though--at least not this recording....:(

Like the tunes, though...:)

Kris...know anything about this format?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by merc
[B]My goodness NO. If you do not have a display which accepts a digital video input(DVI/HDCP or HDMI), then the 3910 will offer an equivalent pic via the iScan HD.
_______________________________________________

O.k. But I do have a DVI input.
So my question is will the 5910 straight into my TV via DVI be better than............

my current set-up: 3910 SDI out - into HD+ - out to the TV via DVI?

I was told to use the HD+ with the 5910 to get 1:1 mapping. I have a Samsung hpp-5071 (claims a native res of 1366X768)
The problem is that resolution does not work for some reason. (I get scan lines and flicker in black)
I have to go in 720p.

Bokes,

Are you sure that your display will accept its native resolution?

It sounds like it doesn't and if that's the case, it very possible that you won't achieve 1:1 pixel mapping. I've experienced this with my Sony LCD rptv.

Originally posted by Bghead8che
Thanks.

Also, there was a "Standard" and "Enhanced" setting if I remember correctly. I assume I leave it at "Standard" which, I believe, is O IRE.

-Brian

Leave it in Standard. This isn't 0 IRE, it is digital Studio RGB (16-235)

Originally posted by moonhawk
I was right about Bela Fleck DVD-A...

Exchanged for a new copy today and it played fine.

Not too impressed with "Advanced Resolution" DVD-Audio, though--at least not this recording....:(

Like the tunes, though...:)

Kris...know anything about this format?

God I hope so!!:D

Not very familiar with that recording though. I highly recommend the AIX discs, best out there for DVD-A quality. Some other great demo pieces:

The Flaming Lips Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots
Blue Man Group Audio
Nine Inch Nails The Downward Spiral
The Eagles Hotel California
Queen The Game
Big Phat Band XXL
Diana Krall Love Scenes
Beck Sea Change

Those are a few of my favorites but there are lots more excellent recordings. There are also a lot of great SA-CD discs out there that are worth checking out.

Jimp,

I called Samsung and they tell me that 1366X768 is the native.
Who knows.
I have a home service call into them and will have the tech check it.

Thanks Kris...I have the Diana Krall you mentioned...Very good recording, although my favorite-by far- is "The Girl in the Other Room", in SA-CD.

She's actually my new girlfriend. I had to write a "Dear Norah" letter recently...with heavy heart, of course....:D

I also do have several SA-CD's and DVD-A's...One of the reasons I love this great player...
But there seem to be different "flavors " of DVD-A. The Bela Fleck "Bluegrass Sessions" is the only one I have that says "Advanced Resolution", and a light came on on the 5910 that says "advanced" when I played it.

That was what I was asking if you were familiar with....I'm certainly well aware of the fact-and grateful for it- that you are an expert in these matters...:)

At any rate, the recording sounds a little "muddier" than he rest of his albums....I also don't like the surround channels being used to add separate instruments-seems like an abuse of the format to me, kind of unnatural. But that's just an opinion...It's the quality of the sound I think is a little substandard.

BTW, did you ever publish the audio review of the 5910?

The review has been turned in so it should be published soon.

Make sure you go into the etc menu in the player's setup menu and have AUDIO selected for the player mode.

If you have a display hooked up go into the menu on the Bela Fleck disc and see if there is an advanced resolution stereo mix. Most DVD-A's have them. You have to use the 6 channel analog outputs or else you are not hearing the true high resolution tracks. (Although you can use the firewire, denon link or HDMI output if you have those capabilities).

Sorry if you already know these things, I am just trying to cover bases in case you don't.

bokes,
1366x768 is not a spec'd resolution like 720p and 1080i, etc. You may have to "dink" a bit with the HD+ settings (front porch, back porch, etc) because the "preset" 1366x768 may not be correct for your display. Sounds like you are close. Also, make sure you turn off any automatic "pixel movers" or anti burn-in options. These can keep native rate from working properly.

larry

Originally posted by bokes
Jimp,

I called Samsung and they tell me that 1366X768 is the native.
Who knows.
I have a home service call into them and will have the tech check it.


To avoid a lot of trial and error, you might want to call Samsung back and ask them if this display will accept its native resolution. Explain to them that you're using an outboard processor.:cool:

My point is if it doesn't accept its native resolution, there wouldn't be much point in running the signal through a processor. What would it do that the 5910 wouldn't do?

I agree with JimP, the display may not accept the native resolution in.

My plasma only accepts its native resolution via DVI but won't do it via component. And at the same time it won't accept standard 480P, 720P, or 1080i via DVI, only component. Kooky huh!

Yup, Samsung knows I'm using an outboard processor and of course they blamed it for the problem- but it's my second unit so I doubt it's the iscan.

what is the benefit of having a high resolution display if it will not accept that native resolution from an incoming source?

To quote I Robot, "That sir is the right question!!"

I guess the other right question would be,"My 5910 don't do no stinkin' HD, huh?"

Right?....:D

Under the "set" menu should I leave the "IRE" Setting at the default of 7.5 or should I change it to 0?

Also, under the main setup menu under HDMI/DVI should I use the "Standard" or "enhanced" setting?

Thanks for any replies. I really want to get this thing calibrated and watch some movies!

-Brian

I see that Kris already answered my Standard/Enhanced question. Now I just need to know the IRE setting. ;-)

I went ahead and took delivery of a 5910 to match it against my current
3910 SDI mod w/iscan set-up.
I set the 5910's contrast to -2 and the NR to 1. I also made adjustments to my display to compensate for no iscan.

I played Amelie' - rich color film.
The 5910 looked great, but no better than 3910.
The real test for me was a black and white film. I always have problems with B&W DVDs for some reason. I used Sunset Blvd.
With B&W- I was very disappointed with the 5910's performance. The picture looked slightly washed out. No richness whatsoever. I also noticed some minor posterization which could be compression or the display- I just know the iscan does a good job of getting rid of this and other artifacts.
With B&W- I would say the 5910 looked just like the 3910 without the SDI and iscan. But when you add those factors back in- things change.

To my eyes- the 3910 SDI out through the iscan DVI into the display - still gives me a better, solid, cleaner image.

For me- there is now no question that the 3910 with SDI and iscan is the way to go. Unfortunately, I can not input native into my display. I am using 720p. Regardless, this config. still beats the 5910 hands down.

No doubt this is a high quality player, but I expected more from the 5910 with it's high price point and all the hype about it's internal Hollywood processor.
I'll be sending it back on Monday.

C'mon people. What IRE Setting are you using? 0 or 7.5?

Thanks!

-Brian

Originally posted by Bghead8che
C'mon people. What IRE Setting are you using? 0 or 7.5?

Thanks!

-Brian

Still playing with it...

Why don't you experiment and let us know what YOU think works best?

:)

Hi,

A quick question for you 5910 owners: What options do you have for displaying 4:3 material on a 16X9 screen? Pillarbox? Crop top and bottom while leaving aspect ratio intact (i.e. non-anamorphic zoom)?

Originally posted by bokes
I No doubt this is a high quality player, but I expected more from the 5910 with it's high price point and all the hype about it's internal Hollywood processor.
I'll be sending it back on Monday.

Funny, my reaction is just the opposite. Running both the 5910 and the Iscan HD+/3910 with SDI into my NEC HT 1100, there was a significantly noticeable improvement of the 5910 over the 3910. That's why I sold my 3910/Iscan combo on Videogon.

Go figure :)

Okay.... I need some very specific help here, please.
I am trying to decide whether or not to buy a Denon 5910?

Here is my specific situation:
I currently am comparing a Denon 3910 and an Onkyo sp1000 in my system. So far, I am slightly favoring the Onkyo for its' analog audio, which is important to me.

However, my Denon dealer has offered me the opportunity to trade in the 3910, at full value(he needs a 3910 showroom demo unit), towards a new 5910 for $2800 plus tax.

Although that has me interested, I am wondering if I can appreciate what the 5910 does/can do better than the 3910, or even the Onkyo, in my specific system?

Will I appreciate the better video from the 5910 being that I use this type of video signal pathway: DVD player's HDMI output --> HDMI to DVI-D cable --> DC-DA1 DVI-D/HDCP to VGA/RGBHV D/A Converter --> VGA/RGB cable --> Pioneer 643HD5 CRT based RP HDTV?
So far, at 1080i(my HDTVs only acceptable VGA/RGB input resolution), the 3910 and SP1000 look very much alike with good BTB and White level performance after calibration with Avia and VE.

Will the 5910 look better than those other two units in my current system?

Or, since the 5910 does not do 1080p upscaling, would I be better going back to using the iScanHD plus my SDI Denon 1600 for video only, and get the Onkyo for audio only?

What else am I missing with regard to the benefit of the 5910 OVER the 3910 in my system?

What are the opinions of you good folks here in the 5910 thread?

Thanks for your help!

merc

If possible, get your Denon dealer to let you try out the 5910.
Then you can do your own shootout.

JimP,

thanks for the advice... but, both the 3910 and the 5910 are very special order units without the usual return policies except for the upgrade one...? If I prefer the 3910 to the 5910, I'm hosed.... ;)

merc

Maybe someone whose reading this thread is local to you and is willing to bring their unit over for you to compare.

I can relate to what you're going through. Its too easy to throw money at trying to make an upgrade without having a basis in fact as to improvements in picture quality.

merc,

I'm in the same boat. I think the 5910 may be a fantastic "bridge" product that is good enough to justify it's cost. I say this because it will be a LONG time before HD-DVD has a significant library of titles available. A 5910 may allow us to enjoy our existing DVDs until BluRay (or whichever format becomes dominant) has a decent catalog. For me it's either a 5910 now, or an Algolith Dragonfly this summer...

Crutchfield has the 5910 with a 30 day trial period. If you don't like it they'll pay to ship it back. The often have a scratch n dent 5910.

That's because there are many folks returning them after realizing this unit is NOT worth 3499.00! At most it should have a MSRP of 2499.00.

That's funny Joe, I just tested two players this last week. One that was the same price as the 5910 and one that is SUBSTANTIALLY more and both didn't come close to video performance and only one came somewhat close audio wise. Don't see you pitching a fit about all the other over priced players out there????? Does the 5910 personally insult you or something, or are you still mad that no one listened to you in the beginning of this thread still?

Kris,

Is the 5910 twice as good as the 3910 with regard to analog audio and video? Would I see the video benefit of the 5910 in my system? Here's how I need to run my video: HDMI output of player --> HDMI/DVI-D cable --> DC-DA1 DVI-D to VGA/RGBHV D/A converter --> VGA/RGB cable --> VGA/RGB input of my Pioneer 643HD5 CRT based RP HDTV.

Would I be able to see the video improvement of the 5910 over the 3910?

Finally, how much better is the analog redbook audio playback of the 5910 versus the 3910?

Thanks!

What's even more funny Kris is the fact that I have a really good friend who works for crutchfield and even he is admitting a 50% return rate. Keep laughing, the jokes on you. The 5910 is barely better than the 3910. They can't even sell brand new on eBay (from a good seller) for 2700.00! remember genius, 480i is 480i!!!

Originally posted by bokes
I went ahead and took delivery of a 5910 to match it against my current
3910 SDI mod w/iscan set-up.
I set the 5910's contrast to -2 and the NR to 1. I also made adjustments to my display to compensate for no iscan.

I played Amelie' - rich color film.
The 5910 looked great, but no better than 3910.
The real test for me was a black and white film. I always have problems with B&W DVDs for some reason. I used Sunset Blvd.
With B&W- I was very disappointed with the 5910's performance. The picture looked slightly washed out. No richness whatsoever. I also noticed some minor posterization which could be compression or the display- I just know the iscan does a good job of getting rid of this and other artifacts.
With B&W- I would say the 5910 looked just like the 3910 without the SDI and iscan. But when you add those factors back in- things change.

To my eyes- the 3910 SDI out through the iscan DVI into the display - still gives me a better, solid, cleaner image.

For me- there is now no question that the 3910 with SDI and iscan is the way to go. Unfortunately, I can not input native into my display. I am using 720p. Regardless, this config. still beats the 5910 hands down.

No doubt this is a high quality player, but I expected more from the 5910 with it's high price point and all the hype about it's internal Hollywood processor.
I'll be sending it back on Monday.

This is the kind of objective comparison I come to AVS to read about....thanks.

Joe your continuall assanine post are getting old. You dont like it FINE you do not have to come here and continually bash something except you must like Kris say have a ax to grind what you going to complain about next a mecedes costing to much? when your yugo does everything it does.

Originally posted by bokes
I went ahead and took delivery of a 5910 to match it against my current
3910 SDI mod w/iscan set-up.
I set the 5910's contrast to -2 and the NR to 1. I also made adjustments to my display to compensate for no iscan.

I played Amelie' - rich color film.
The 5910 looked great, but no better than 3910.
The real test for me was a black and white film. I always have problems with B&W DVDs for some reason. I used Sunset Blvd.
With B&W- I was very disappointed with the 5910's performance. The picture looked slightly washed out. No richness whatsoever. I also noticed some minor posterization which could be compression or the display- I just know the iscan does a good job of getting rid of this and other artifacts.
With B&W- I would say the 5910 looked just like the 3910 without the SDI and iscan. But when you add those factors back in- things change.

To my eyes- the 3910 SDI out through the iscan DVI into the display - still gives me a better, solid, cleaner image.

For me- there is now no question that the 3910 with SDI and iscan is the way to go. Unfortunately, I can not input native into my display. I am using 720p. Regardless, this config. still beats the 5910 hands down.

No doubt this is a high quality player, but I expected more from the 5910 with it's high price point and all the hype about it's internal Hollywood processor.
I'll be sending it back on Monday.

Thanks for this very well written, objective, and thoughtful comparison. This is the kind of edifying material I'm more accustomed to seeing at AVS. :)

Many of us do have experience demoing the 3910 against other players like the Onkyo 1000 and the Pioneer 59, among other units...so this sort of post starts giving us a general idea of where the 5910 might fit in.

You certainly tend to confirm my suspicions: Personally, I can't imagine ANY non-HD DVD player, this late in the ballgame, really being worth $3000+...but then again, everyone has a different definition of "value." :) More power to 'em.

I tend to agree with this post, made in another thread, and the underlying concept behind it: Auditor55 wrote:
I forsee a lot of 5910's on Ebay once the Toshiba HD-DVD hits the market.

Taken from:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=488569&perpage=20&pagenumber=6

Originally posted by joerod
What's even more funny Kris is the fact that I have a really good friend who works for crutchfield and even he is admitting a 50% return rate. Keep laughing, the jokes on you. The 5910 is barely better than the 3910. They can't even sell brand new on eBay (from a good seller) for 2700.00! remember genius, 480i is 480i!!!

Whatever Joe. Jokes on me huh. I have to tell you that the return rate and your opinion have really taken their toll on me lately. My royalties from Denon have been really hurting.

Please everyone don't return your players or my commision will go away!! What will my family do if you don't like your 5910s!!!!

I am so glad you know so much about video Joe. Makes me all warm inside to know that there are dealers out there as knowledgable as you.

As for comparing the 3910 to the 5910. The 3910 is a great player. The audio isn't as good as the 5910 but it isn't shabby by any means. The fact that it has firewire almost makes this a non-issue anyways since you can always improve the decoder later.

The FLI chip is still an excellent video processor and in some ways it is better then the HQV. The only area this applies to though is diagonal lines in video material. The HQV is far better with fine detail, cadence detection and noise reduction.

The 5910 steps up the performance in every way over the 3910 and that is saying a lot. I don't think $3500 is an outrageous price at all considering the market and its performance level. I can't think of a single player at this price point or higher that can outperform it.

Kris LMFAO!!!!! Kris dont let him get to you i think him and houston guy may be the same.

I just hate trolls who don't know the first thing about testing video.

But he installs millions and millons of dvd players dosent that make him a expert?

Again, you all need to understand that if you continue down the road of attacking people, your account will be closed. Move on people. We are here to help with issues not to attack a product over and over again.

sorry dave. but i think you can see what me a kris are saying.

Personally, I can't imagine ANY non-HD DVD player, this late in the ballgame, really being worth $3000+...
I forsee a lot of 5910's on Ebay once the Toshiba HD-DVD hits the market.Late in the ball game??? Sorry to disappoint anyone, but SD DVD is gonna be king for at least 4 more years. It will take at least that long for the studios to begin releasing all new HD-DVDs of movies on their DVD release dates. Until then, the media will be like that of D Theater tapes, hit and miss. Additionally, it will take at least another 4 years before enough folks actually have HDTVs which can display HD-DVDs. The majority of homes still have SDTVs and as many of us early HDTV adopters know, Hollywood has already decided to Eff us by requiring HDMI/HDCP inputs on our relatively new, but now purposefully outmoded, HDTVs in order to see the benefits of HD-DVDs.

Also, anyone who buys a 5910 is doing so at least partiallly for its' supposedly wonderful multi-format audio performance. Even with a firewire output, how many of us have, or will have, a reciever/prepro with onboard digital and analog design and quality which will outperform the 5910? Seems like for now, those units are limited to that of the ilk and cost of the Anthem D1?

Finally, who here thinks that the new Toshiba HD-DVD will cost less than $1000 and/or outperform the 5910 for SD-DVD video and multiformat audio playback?

No, IMO, if the 5910 is as good as many have reported, it might just be a very well spent $3K??? YMMV.

I think people are making some assumptions here that may be faulty, so here I go jumping into the fray...

The biggest "given" in A/V is The Law Of Diminishing Returns. My display is a Qualia 006. Is it twice as good as the best display device available for half the price? No, but it is fantastic and worth the extra expense TO ME. There is usually no way to justify the expense of state-of-the-art goods in purely economic terms. Is a Ferrari worth 3-4 times the price of a Corvette? If you're willing to pay that price then it clearly is TO YOU. No further explanation needed, and I hope people out there enjoy their state-of-the-art toys.

Second: state-of-the-art technology WILL trickle down to lower-priced goods. In the case of my Qualia, once Sony nails the production technology to produce SXRD chips in volume, there will be (by the end of 2005, it appears) lower priced versions on the market. Once HQV chipsets are produced in increasing volumes we'll see cheaper products with this technology. We all benefit from that, so beware of throwing darts at new toys just because they're not worth it in YOUR mind.

Third, all of this discussion is useless unless it centers around your display device. Sorry to sound like a broken record, but on my Qualia (there's that d*mn word again) things look very different than they do on my other display device. The Q006 is absolutely ruthless and shows every positive and negative of the source it's being fed. So, the benefits of a 5910 may be worth it to one customer, while being wasted on another.

Fourth, we all participate in the same hobby here, and that should join us instead of dividing us. People who enter a forum like this one [the 5910 OWNERS thread] only to thrash and trash the product need to get a life. If you can post verified unbiased constructive criticism, then more power to you. But criticism is an art; it should be informed and intelligent, as it is far easier to tear things down than it is to build things up or give a detailed analysis. Thanks, Kris, for your beautifully measured critique of the 5910.

I think you've made some very good points here, merc.
I already own several hundred dvd's and I can't imagine just throwing them out when HD makes it's premiere. It will take years just for HD versions of what I currently own to be released. And then re-released as SE editions of these HD versions.
I'm also concerned at just how well these new hd players willl be able to play sd dvds.
It might be a good idea to pick up a very good quality player that will help to ensure one's appreciation of those sd dvd's. Especially, as brt2 points out, the display also makes a big difference and the newer displays will surely highlight the shortcomings of sd.

I had the good fortune to have a friend stop by this week with his 3910. We spent about 3 hours comparing it with my 5910 focusing exclusively on audio performance. If an opportunity presents itself, we will reconvene to compare video at another time.

With the covers off both units it becomes immediately apparent that the 5910 has at least twice as much circuitry and a substantially more robust power supply system. The 5910 is also considerably heavier likely owing to the additional circuits.

The 3910 is indeed an impressive sounding unit and represents a terrific bargain at its price as compared to the 5910. The 5910 simply sounds better.

When considering which unit is appropriate for you there are three areas to weigh in your decision: the combination of video, audio and cost.

Kris' capable analysis of the 5910's video chain revealrd that it is the king of the hill. If your display equipment cannot take full advantage of the 5910's performance capabilities, they could be superfluous for you.

The 5910 takes on all players in audio performance and aquits itself admirably besting many much more costly audio only playback sources. With high resolution source playback (SACD and DVD-A) it may have no peer.

If you have to decide between buying a 5910 or paying the rent, you should be more than pleased with a 3910 and likely never regret your purchase. If having the best is important to you, and you are comfortable with the expense, for the moment, the 5910 is the way to go.

Don't see mine being returned any time soon.

I am really looking forward to HD-DVD. But am I the only one who is really skeptical about how good the first players will even be??

Not to step on toes but I don't really remember the last time Toshiba impressed me with a SD DVD player and they have had a long time to perfect their players. What makes you think their HD ones will be any better???

I agree with you Kris about hd-dvd and the players and manuf behind it. You have 3 that are not top notch companys like toshiba, rca and sanyo. on the other hand blu ray has just about everybody else including apple and dell for the pc side,

The 3910 is indeed an impressive sounding unit and represents a terrific bargain at its price as compared to the 5910. The 5910 simply sounds better.In what ways... and how much better? Is the 5910's audio advantage over the 3910 immediately and easily heard for CD playback?

IIRC, the 5910 uses its' DACs in dual differential mode when playing back stereo music... how much of a difference does that make versus the 3910?

Probably, the first HD-DVD player which I buy is gonna be a PS3. :)

Originally posted by merc
Probably, the first HD-DVD player which I buy is gonna be a PS3. :)

Actually that'll be a Blu-Ray player, coming from Sony. ;)

Rumors are still going through both ways as to whether the Xbox 2 will have HD-DVD on it or not. I'm with you, though: I'm counting on these new game consoles to be my entry level to the new formats. What's interesting is: It's really looking like Xbox 2 may come out as soon as THIS November. I have to wonder how much the cost of the console would be if they include HD-DVD on it. I have my doubts that this will happen. MS already loses money on every Xbox that currently gets sold. I have to believe this is a trend that they don't wish to see continued, although, I think they'll take big cuts to get a user base established well ahead of the competition.

If Xbox 2 has HD-DVD, I'd be amazed to see it below $500 at launch.

By the way, I do agree with your, Ahab, and brt3 all the way from a few posts up. :)

</derail> :p

Merc

You'll have to read the full review that goes up shortly.

A Dual Differential configuration eliminates noise in the signal. On CD playback I thought the 5910 was cleaner and far more dynamic.

SA-CD was quite a bit better too, especially in the low end.

But how much of this will translate into everyones end system is always a question. Depending on the setup you may not see much difference at all. That is the downside of subjective reviews and comparisons. Unfortunately that is what I am limited to with audio.

Q,

I agree. I am siding with the Sony version of HD-DVD(Blu-Ray) since supposedly it will be implemented in players for PCs too, and may not, may not, hopefully may not, need to adhere to the BS Hollywood stipulation about limiting resolution via component video connections. ;)

Kris,

Thanks for the additional info on the 5910 and I eagerly await the new article on the 5910. I am slowly able to detect the differences between the 3910 and the SP1000, so hopefully, I'd also be able to appreciate the improvements of the 5910 over the 3910?

I especially like the dedicated two channel design of the 5910, as that connection would go to my new Modwright Preamp, while the MC analog outputs would go to my Krell HTS7.1. Does the seperate L/R two channel output always output the same signal as the L/R outputs of the multichannel analog outputs?

I am also guessing that my current display setup would also benefit from the 5910 due to its' ability to select RGB via the HDMI output, rather than the component type HDMI output of the 3910... or do I have that backwards? :)

Thanks... and probably, most of my questions can be resolved by your review when it is published.

Since you are converting to DVI you would just be using RGB out. That is unfortunate. The best output of the 5910 is via pure HDMI using the YCbCr colorspace. This is a true 10 bit video output. Selecting RBG for colorspace limits the output to 8 bit so you may see more contouring.

The 2-channel and multi-channel outputs aren't much different in terms of setup. Preferrably Denon would have allowed a Source Direct mode for the dedicated 2 channel outputs and whatever you wanted for the MC outputs. But right now that is not possible to my knowledge. I will look into it some more though.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Since you are converting to DVI you would just be using RGB out. That is unfortunate. The best output of the 5910 is via pure HDMI using the YCbCr colorspace. This is a true 10 bit video output. Selecting RBG for colorspace limits the output to 8 bit so you may see more contouring.

The 2-channel and multi-channel outputs aren't much different in terms of setup. Preferrably Denon would have allowed a Source Direct mode for the dedicated 2 channel outputs and whatever you wanted for the MC outputs. But right now that is not possible to my knowledge. I will look into it some more though.

Kris,

Would utilizing an HDMI to DVI cable allow throughput of 10 bit YCbCr signal to a DVI display device?

No, DVI is limited to 8 bit RGB.

Since you are converting to DVI you would just be using RGB out. That is unfortunate. The best output of the 5910 is via pure HDMI using the YCbCr colorspace. This is a true 10 bit video output. Selecting RBG for colorspace limits the output to 8 bit so you may see more contouring.Thanks Kris...
Maybe, I just need to decide between the Onkyo and the Denon 3910 and be happy with that choice for a few years? :)

Probably. You would get an improvement in de-interlacing and noise reduction, but you wouldn't be taking full advantage of the player. Then again, you aren't really taking full advantage of the 3910 either since it has 10 bit HDMI out as well.

Not sure on the Onkyo. The Silicon Image chip isn't 10 bit processing like the Faroudja and HQV are.

Probably. You would get an improvement in de-interlacing and noise reduction, but you wouldn't be taking full advantage of the player. Then again, you aren't really taking full advantage of the 3910 either since it has 10 bit HDMI out as well.Thanks Kris.

I really hate effin Hollywood for doing this to us early HDTV adopters. Sometimes, it makes me think about making a copy of my rented DVDs just to pay them back for what they are putting us through... Then again, doing that would make me just as evil, paranoid and greedy as them.

Not sure on the Onkyo. The Silicon Image chip isn't 10 bit processing like the Faroudja and HQV are.Maybe that's why the Onkyo video looks better to me, than does the Denon? Oh well, I was hoping that I could get from the 5910 the same performance benefits as others from this unit, but that isn't gonna happen.

Guess I'll return the 3910 and keep the Onkyo until I upgrade my HDTV or buy an HD-DVD/Blu-Ray Player???

Thanks again Kris(and other 5910 owners) for your help! You guys are great! Enjoy your 5910s!

Take Care,
merc

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Probably. You would get an improvement in de-interlacing and noise reduction, but you wouldn't be taking full advantage of the player.

Kris,

As I mentioned before, I am either going to buy a Denon 5910 now or wait to buy a HQV-equipped processor (like the Algolith Dragonfly) this summer when they become available. Other than the obvious differences, is there anything else I should consider in choosing? I realize the external processor has advantages -- the ability to process other sources and a supposedly fuller implementation of the HQV/Teranex technology, for example. Is there an advantage to taking the signal right off the disc and processing it inside the player? In my setup I'd run either setup over HDMI into a Qualia 006...

Thanks in advance!

If I'm not mistaken, everyone seems to be focusing on two-channel (&multi) CD formats, which is great, and I'm very excited about that -- but I'm also very interested on how 5.1 multi-channel DVD movies sound.

I'm sure the 5910 will sound its best when played through high quality home theatre equipment (pre-amp/amp separates), high end speakers all-around and a solid sub. IMO the movie actually looks better when the 5.1 surround sound can envelope you and bring you deeper into the video.

Kris,

I just wanted to say that many of us appreciate your evaluations and comments of the 5910. I'm one of those that appreciates the best, but there is a limit on how much I'll spend. I've been trying to justify my purchase of the 5910, and your comments (and others too) have helped me feel good about it. I still don't have the dang thing yet, and it has been backordered 3-4 weeks now. I guess dealers have to get in line for these units until they get the production line flowing. :D

Kris and Company,

The forum has excellent information for all users that own one of these units, and would like help in buying decisions and set-up. I appreciate all the constructive information and we all should appreciate the expertise of Kris who takes his time out of his personal life to answer questions of our posts.

With that said, I currently have a Denon 5900 unmoded, I have just picked up my 5910 and am in the set-up process.

Just to review, will I benefit from all of the 5910 video to my Infocus 7205 projector? This projector is only sporting a DVI, no HDMI.

Also, now that everybody has been able to spend some time with the player, could someone please restate the best settings for initial set-up in the 5910 for Video performance. Then obviously I will break out VE or AVIA for a calibration.

Thanks to all that are interested in living with video happiness, and not bitching about others people choices!

Don't get me wrong folks, DVI based projectors will still reap the benefits. All I am saying is the best output from this player is HDMI YCbCr, but the DVI still looks excellent and takes full advantage of the HQV processing and DVDO scaling. The only issue is most DVI based PJs have 8 bit processing internally so you start to get contouring. I only know of a handful of 10 bit or higher display devices. The Sony HS-20, HS-51, Qualia, and maybe some of the JVC models. I'm sure we'll see more down the road.

charlie1

Us being neighbors you are more then welcome to come by on a weekend and have a demo. I can walk you through some of the features and demo the video and audio performance in my system. PM me if interested. This goes for anyone who may be in the area as well.

This is the recommended levels. contrast to -2 and the NR to 1

Thanks for the quick reply guys....I am in the process of getting everything set-up...It is great to have support from experienced users!

I have to go back and reread Kris's review on the unit...Are these the initial settings he recommended?

Is everyone in agreement on these initial settings or have there been some additional findings since Kris's review?

If I am correct, I think I remember Kris also said that your projector would benefit form this unit if it's native resolution was matched with the player? The Infocus projector is 720.....Could someone explain the scaling to me with DVDO scaler?


Looking very forward to seeing this machine in action!

Papafox

Set your DVI output to 720P. Then set the HDMI/DVI output to NORMAL. Then go in the picture adjust memories that are accessed by the remote. Toggle all the way over and set black output to 0 IRE. Then pick any of the user memories and set contrast to -2, and enhancement to +1. You can also set the DNR to 1 if you want but I only do this with DVDs that have obvious compression noise in backgrounds.

Hope this helps.

By the way, Denon just released a new firmware for this player on the Denon site. I don't know what it is supposed to do yet though. Denon is sending me the firmware and if it changes the contrast setting I will post on it here.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
The Sony HS-20, HS-51, Qualia, and maybe some of the JVC models.

Kris, have you got your HS51 yet..or are you still going that route?

Another firmware version? I think it is funny that they just released this unit a couple months ago and already are releasing newer firmware. Didn't this just happen with the 5900 and the 3910? The real secrets should be what this new firmware is for...I doubt most will ever know the true answer. I also heard they will be releasing another version in June. I won't be surprised if they start charging people for them.

Originally posted by David Bott
Again, you all need to understand that if you continue down the road of attacking people, your account will be closed. Move on people. We are here to help with issues not to attack a product over and over again.

Dave where are you and JOE READ!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by joerod
I won't be surprised if they start charging people for them.

joerod, we get the point that you don't like denon. No need to keep throwing it in our faces. :(
Are you just trying to get this thread closed so that we can't learn more about this player?

Dave is to busy closing Onkyo threads because real trolls (I won't mention any names) have their own agendas. They obviously have their own fan clubs. Besides my post wasn't a hit against anyone. It was against denon for making more firmware versions. What is wrong with that? You know, if Kris recommended a 49.00 Apex dvd player and said it had better pic Q I guarantee that 50% of the 5910 owners would BUY it...Thats how funny you guys are. You do make really good followers (sheep)...

We are here to help with issues not to attack a product over and over again.
I quess you cant read!!!!!!

Originally posted by joerod
It was against denon for making more firmware versions. What is wrong with that?

What's wrong with more firmware versions? If something can be improved (assuming the new version is an improvement or added functionality), why not improve it? Sure, it's best to get it right the first time (which is seldom done with today's fast moving technology) but I would think you'd commend rather than denigrate a company for committing resources for revisions of firmware, especially if the current crop of users and potential users think it's meeting their expectations as is.

Originally posted by donb1948
What's wrong with more firmware versions?

There is nothing wrong with firmware updates. If we have learned anything, we know very few products make it to market free of bugs or without a need for a little tweak here or there. The sign of a good OEM is one willing to answer the call for updates as often as required to make a product the best it can be.

I suggest we all ignore Joerod in an effort to keep the thread on track.

The only issue is most DVI based PJs have 8 bit processing internally so you start to get contouring. I only know of a handful of 10 bit or higher display devices. The Sony HS-20, HS-51, Qualia, and maybe some of the JVC models. I'm sure we'll see more down the road.How can we tell if our HDTV has 8 or 10 bit processing? Also, if you send the HDTV an analog 1080i signal via the RGB input, what processing at all does the HDTV do? Doesn't it just display the received image as received?

Some displays will say what bit depth they are using for their processing. Even with 1:1 pixel mapping the display still has to process the luminance signal and gamma.

An excellent test for this is a gray ramp. With 8 bit processing it is almost a guarantee that you will see some banding in a gray ramp. This is extremelly apparent on plasmas. With 10 bit or higher a gray ramp will look completely clean with no apparent banding as the gray level transistions.

Joe

What makes you think that the firmware is a bad thing? It is well known that the HQV chip is continually updated with new software to tweak the processing capabilities. This is one of the plus sides of the chip and Teranex's support. Also, everyone knows that I found a few issues in my review that maybe Denon has tweaked. Nothing wrong with supporting your products, and Denon has never charged for a firmware update.

If you think about it, it is really too bad that more companies don't offer regular firmware updates with their products. Lord knows they could use them. I can't think of a single player out there (5910 included) that couldn't benefit from a few tweaks here and there. Some more then others. But I guess customer support is a bad thing in your opinion; probably says a lot for your business motto!!

"The 3910 is indeed an impressive sounding unit and represents a terrific bargain at its price as compared to the 5910. The 5910 simply sounds better."


What comparison test did you apply to reach that conclusion?

Originally posted by Bytehoven

I suggest we all ignore Joerod in an effort to keep the thread on track.

Always a good idea!

All this talk about 8 bit processing vs 10 bit processing has me wondering what my Dwin TV3 is doing?

Are the new breed of digital projectors (1080p) going to have 10 bit processing?

"The 3910 is a great player. The audio isn't as good as the 5910 but it isn't shabby by any means."


These type of unsubstantiated statements kind of annoy me.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Rob Tomlin


All this talk about 8 bit processing vs 10 bit processing has me wondering what my Dwin TV3 is doing?



I guess since it is DVI based, it will only do 8 bit, correct?

"The biggest "given" in A/V is The Law Of Diminishing Returns. My display is a Qualia 006. Is it twice as good as the best display device available for half the price"


That must means the Qualia 006 is twice as good as the most expensive Plasma at the half the price.

I think you should say " in your opinion" The biggest "given" in A/V is The Law Of Diminishing Returns. My display is a Qualia 006. Is it twice as good as the best display device available for half the price"

Because it is unsubstantiated, highly debateable and not a proven fact.

So let me get this straight. You pay 3500.00 for a dvd player only to have to get a NEW firmware version 60 days (denon 5900 & 3910)after it is released? I can see if it has been out for 8 months or a year but come on, 60 days! You guys drink way to much denon kool aid. Wait til you see what this firmware is for, and then the next one in June. I will leave you all to your 5910 love fest. And Kris, my company business motto is to do it right, release it right, not rush and do any half ass jobs. Instead of staring at your Hitachi tv looking for dots I install (and quite a lot) personal home theaters and movie cinemas. You really have a fan club, they must think you are the only one in the world capable of tearing apart a dvd player and studying video. I will have far more superior dvd in a few months anyway, and it will only cost a grand. And yes, there is over 300 titles announced to be released this Fall. That is a lot more titles than your 480i format had when it first hit the shelves! You people don't realize that ALL the higher end dvd players look almost identical. There may be a little 3-5% tweaking to favor one over the other, but most installers laugh at you because you can only do so much with 480i... Kris, I think you make a far better SALESMAN than videomaster...

And yes, the Onkyo SP1000 did have a firmware but that also added a whole new MENU(unlike denon's picture problems). And Denon has had firmware versions released (almost upon launch) on their last 3 "flagship" models. How stupid is that!? Oh and is SACD and dvd Audio passing by denon 3rd or 4th Link yet?

"I suggest we all ignore Joerod in an effort to keep the thread on track."

Unless someone is being painfully rude and insulting, why should we squash desent. The negative opinion adds balance to a discussion. When I'm looking to purchase a new piece of equipment, I want to hear all the positive and negative opinions I can find.

Unless someone is being painfully rude and insulting, why should we squash desent. The negative opinion adds balance to a discussion. When I'm looking to purchase a new piece of equipment, I want to hear all the positive and negative opinions I can find.

That's fine, but JoeRod seems more intent on throwing personal barbs at Kris and anybody who values Kris's opinion. He's talking about Denon Kool Aid, sheep. But hey, all DVD players offer the same performance, I guess, and Kris is wasting his time, and ours, testing equipment. Maybe he should give it up and start installing, since that seems to be where all the real knowledge is gained.

Originally posted by joerod
So let me get this straight. You pay 3500.00 for a dvd player only to have to get a NEW firmware version 60 days (denon 5900 & 3910)after it is released? I can see if it has been out for 8 months or a year but come on, 60 days! You guys drink way to much denon kool aid. Wait til you see what this firmware is for, and then the next one in June. I will leave you all to your 5910 love fest.

You absolutely must be kidding!

This coming from the biggest Onkyo supporter on AVS.

Didn't Onkyo have to release a firmware update soon after release because the SP1000 didn't even pass BTB?

Why don't we hear joerod complaining about that?????

Originally posted by Stacy Huff
That's fine, but JoeRod seems more intent on throwing personal barbs at Kris and anybody who values Kris's opinion. He's talking about Denon Kool Aid, sheep. But hey, all DVD players offer the same performance, I guess, and Kris is wasting his time, and ours, testing equipment. Maybe he should give it up and start installing, since that seems to be where all the real knowledge is gained.

I agree with you, its wrong for him to make personal attacks towards Kris, I think its better if he would give more constructive criticism. I think Kris and the folks at Secrets do a great of "extensive" objective testing of the video performance of DVD players at all price points, I don't know of anyone else doing this. Kris and the folks at Secrets are great consumer advocates, I regard them much in the same way as I do Arny Krueger, one of the co-designers of the ABX Comparator and the designer of the PCABX website. Kris does for video what Arny does for audio.

Having said that, it is not wrong for someone such as JoeRod to have some skepticism. I own the 3910, but I'm not offended by what he say's. I might be drinking some Kool-aid:) and if that is the case, I certainly would want someone to wake me up.

My SP1000 had been opened and updated by Onkyo before they shipped it from the warehouse. There are a few of us who noticed that our brand new units had been opened, but no one had bothered to place any notice in the box as to what had happened? My unit had fingerprint smudges all over the front panel when I got it and a retaped bottom of the Onkyo box.

I was all over the reseller about it until we figured out that our units had been upgraded to the latest firmware...
BTW, both my 3910 and my SP1000 pass BTB and the White level calibration tests on Avia and VE.

Not that that has anything at all to do with this thread though. ;)

Posted by joerod
"Dave is to busy closing Onkyo threads because real trolls (I won't mention any names) have their own agendas."

Let me make this simple... I now put you on notice that you are to stop attacking the player(s) and other member of this site. You are not helping in any way shape or form and are not doing anything getting people ticked off for you just keep making for issues.

Thanks Dave.

The new 5910 firmware from Denon simply corrects the problems with the A-Team DVD, Star Wars II R2 DVD and some Rick Springfield CD (?).

So looks like no performance adjustments with this release ESS-6780-2.

The new 5910 firmware from Denon simply corrects the problems with the A-Team DVD, Star Wars II R2 DVD and some Rick Springfield CD (?).

So looks like no performance adjustments with this release ESS-6780-2.

I owned the Denon DVM 4800, the 2900, the 5900 and have the 5910 on order. Oh..and I also have a Denon 3802 receiver and am looking at a used 5803 or a 5805. I am not offended by Joerod's player attacks and like Auditor55 welcome constructive and direct criticism of the players I have chosen or am choosing. That is the only way I can learn and take into account risks and benefits. Please...challenge my decisions. How else can I test my own theories, opinions and "facts"?

That is why I listen closely to Kris (as well as others) and have asked him questions many times. I think the main issue is Joerod's "delivery" and some personal attacks. But who cares if you attack a player as long as it is constructive?

Originally posted by Auditor55
"The 3910 is a great player. The audio isn't as good as the 5910 but it isn't shabby by any means."


These type of unsubstantiated statements kind of annoy me.:rolleyes:

I think I substantiated it earlier in this thread. The opinion was completely subjective. I stated that this is one of the frustrations of audio reviewing since it is pretty much all subjective so take it at that.

I did have the chance to compare the 5910 to some tough company though and it performed beautifully. Whether or not it will be a big step up from the 3910 for you in terms of audio performance is something you'd have to figure out on your own. I liked it more, what else can I say. There will be a bit more elaboration in the full review that should be published very soon on Secrets.

I will have far more superior dvd in a few months anyway, and it will only cost a grand. And yes, there is over 300 titles announced to be released this Fall.

Toshiba has had 8 years to make a great DVD player and have not succeeded yet. So do you really think the first one out of the gate is going to be good for the next format? Right.

Based on the inside information I have on the next format, I can't wait to hear your comments at the end of this year. Keep hoping, but I think you may find something to be more disappointed in then even Denon and my objective testing.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Toshiba has had 8 years to make a great DVD player and have not succeeded yet. So do you really think the first one out of the gate is going to be good for the next format? Right.

Based on the inside information I have on the next format, I can't wait to hear your comments at the end of this year. Keep hoping, but I think you may find something to be more disappointed in then even Denon and my objective testing.

Exactly. It was pretty obvious that with all the work that still remained to be done, that HD-DVD would not be ready to be released before the end of this year. I thought that was the case two months ago, and I think it is even more true now.

As for the quality of Toshiba players, I bought the first generation progressive scan model (the 5109) and paid more than $700 for it! It has some serious issues, including the chroma bug, but I will say this: it has been an absolute workhorse- my kids continue to use this player on nearly a daily basis and it still works like a charm.

But, yes, I certainly would not expect big things quality wise from a first gen HD Toshiba player.

Originally posted by Auditor55
"The biggest "given" in A/V is The Law Of Diminishing Returns. My display is a Qualia 006. Is it twice as good as the best display device available for half the price"

That must means the Qualia 006 is twice as good as the most expensive Plasma at the half the price.

I think you should say " in your opinion" The biggest "given" in A/V is The Law Of Diminishing Returns. My display is a Qualia 006. Is it twice as good as the best display device available for half the price"

Because it is unsubstantiated, highly debateable and not a proven fact.

??????????????????????????????????????????????

The biggest "given" in A/V is The Law Of Diminishing Returns. My display is a Qualia 006. Is it twice as good as the best display device available for half the price? No, but it is fantastic and worth the extra expense TO ME.

Makes sense to me.

"Toshiba has had 8 years to make a great DVD player and have not succeeded yet. So do you really think the first one out of the gate is going to be good for the next format? Right. "

Only time will tell, but it behooves all us to at least keep an open mind and not rush to judgment one way or the other.

I have to wonder if taking the image from the disc and displaying it on our screens might actually be easier for HD than it is for SD-DVDs, deinterlaced, upsampled and D/A/D converted? One of the reasons that HDTV looks so good is that the source is already HD, and it is transmitted uncompressed in the already converted format.

Possibly, the HD-DVD players would only have to read and transmit the native signal to our displays, virtually unprocessed? Or not? :)

BTW... is the Qualia a 9" CRT based display? If not, then how can it be the best display you can buy? ;)

The Qualia is not a 9-inch CRT. It is Sony's version of LCoS, and has a native resolution of 1920X1080.

I think.

The Qualia is not a 9-inch CRT. It is Sony's version of LCoS, and has a native resolution of 1920X1080.Does it DO blacks? Is it devoid of fast motion artifacts?
If so... then it might just be the best dang display money can buy. :)

That I don't know, but for the price, you'd sure hope so. :)

Originally posted by merc
BTW... is the Qualia a 9" CRT based display? If not, then how can it be the best display you can buy? ;)

POP!

(Sound of tongue being removed from cheek...)

Originally posted by brt3
POP!

(Sound of tongue being removed from cheek...)


Hopefully so, we wouldn't any heads to roll otherwise.

Originally posted by merc
Does it DO blacks? Is it devoid of fast motion artifacts?
If so... then it might just be the best dang display money can buy. :)

Sounds like you might have a lot of questions about the Qualia 006. You might want to take a look at the Qualia owners thread .

From a pure performance point of view, merc is probably on the mark. If they weren't so freakin' heavy, I'd definitely consider G90 or something. They're in the same price range as the new Sony RPTV (actually a tad higher).

larry

From a pure performance point of view, merc is probably on the mark.Well... I wouldn't make such a statement if I hadn't JUST finished a hands-on review of the all HDTVs available for under $3500 or so. I actually bought a Sony LCD model, but returned it after having it for one sports/movie weekend. Egad... no blacks, black blotches and lots of blurs during fast motion compared to my 7" CRT HDTV. IMO.

That said, I thought the JVC D'alias came the closest to acceptable to me and after reading about future upcoming models based on improvements to that design, I decided to wait and see....

If the Qualia is THAT next gen improvement on digital HDTVs, then, maybe it might be acceptable to those of us who have gotten used to CRT based HDTVs? YMMV.

Originally posted by PooperScooper
From a pure performance point of view, merc is probably on the mark. If they weren't so freakin' heavy, I'd definitely consider G90 or something. They're in the same price range as the new Sony RPTV (actually a tad higher).

larry

I realize we're way OT here, but the last time I checked new G90s were running $23K; the Qualia 006 RPTV lists for $13K and is selling in some B&M stores for $11K. The G90 was my dream projector for a number of years...

I tried to check out the Qualia, by stopping the multiple intro crap, but once I got to the specs sheet, it looked like an LCD HDTV with some sort of anti-screendoor aliasing? Is that what makes this unit special?

How is it with BTB and fast motion?

It isn't LCD, it is SXRD, which is the Sony equivalent of LCoS, and therefore similar to the JVC D-ILA that caught your eye. Or so I understand. There was a review of a Sony Qualia front projector in SGHT,

http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/504sony/ (http://http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/504sony/)

Originally posted by merc
I tried to check out the Qualia, by stopping the multiple intro crap, but once I got to the specs sheet, it looked like an LCD HDTV with some sort of anti-screendoor aliasing? Is that what makes this unit special?

How is it with BTB and fast motion?

Well, I'm biased (as a Qualia owner) but I've always been a CRT guy. The Q006 is the first non-CRT display device I've seen that has truly impressed me, and it continues to impress on a regular basis. There are flaws -- it doesn't do absolutely perfect blacks, for example, but they are awfully close to CRT blacks. The set has so many advantages that they (for me) greatly outweigh it's few shortcomings. The PQ on this box is in an entirely different league from LCD (as it should be given the price). Sony is using SXRD in this set -- their brand of LCOS -- and the set does 1080P.

For more info check the AVS thread below, or my website shown on my signature...
AVS Qualia Owner's Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5431421#post5431421)

brt3,
Continuing OT. My bad, I was remembering a site that sold used PJs. The only G90 there is now is $20. I seem to recall $17k (more than a little above 13K I guess). But there are others brands at $12K and above. AFA digital displays, I'm waiting to see what SED does. RPTVs don't do it for me anymore.

larry

Originally posted by JimP
Sounds like you might have a lot of questions about the Qualia 006. You might want to take a look at the Qualia owners thread .


I wouldn't recommend doing that, its more like a cult than a owners thread. He might get scared and never come back to the AVS forum.:)

Originally posted by brt3
I realize we're way OT here, but the last time I checked new G90s were running $23K; the Qualia 006 RPTV lists for $13K and is selling in some B&M stores for $11K. The G90 was my dream projector for a number of years...

Sorry, another OT question...what B&M stores have you seen the 006 for $11K? At the original 10K I was interested, at the 13K I said forget it, at 11K I might need to take another look...

Originally posted by keenan
Sorry, another OT question...what B&M stores have you seen the 006 for $11K? At the original 10K I was interested, at the 13K I said forget it, at 11K I might need to take another look...

That price was mentioned by a few members on the Q006 thread/cult who purchased their sets through DocDVD (here) (http://www.docdvd.com/). The Sony/Qualia stores give you a little something for the extra buckage; namely, "white glove" delivery with four people to deliver and install the set. I didn't have much choice as I bought mine in December when only the Qualia stores could sell the set...

To get us back on topic -- Kris, could you kindly respond with your opinions on whether I'd get any better results with an external HQV processor (Algolith Dragonfly) & conventional DVD player than with a 5910? Will the external processors use a fuller implementation of the chipset, or will they be functionally identical? As I mentioned before, this setup will be used on a Qualia 006. I realize the obvious advantages of an external scaler, but don't want to sell the 5910 short. Would love to hear your $.02 -- thanks in advance...

An external processor is always recommended. This would not only make your DVD collection look better, you can make ALL sources look better. Plus it will take advantage of the high definition processing the HQV is capable of like 1080i de-interlacing.

To get us back on topic -- Kris, could you kindly respond with your opinions on whether I'd get any better results with an external HQV processor (Algolith Dragonfly) & conventional DVD player than with a 5910? Will the external processors use a fuller implementation of the chipset, or will they be functionally identical? As I mentioned before, this setup will be used on a Qualia 006. I realize the obvious advantages of an external scaler, but don't want to sell the 5910 short. Would love to hear your $.02 -- thanks in advance...Hmmm, good question.
I'd guess that if you upgraded your HDTV to a CRT 9" model, you might see some benefit from an improved or more fuller implementation of the chipset. But, with an LCD variation HDTV, you are always gonna have some problems with certain players which don't overemphasize blacks or have some type of onboard motion buffereing processing in order to hide the inadequacies of the digital imaging now.

Jeez... I hope I was able to stay on topic with my answer? ;)

Seriously though.... I have been told that the upcoming digital displays are able to process through the limitations of the display medium and approximate that of full resolution CRT HDTVs without the nasty problems inherent to those damn tubes. :)
Maybe, the Sony Dahlia is one of those newer digital displays?

Originally posted by Kris Deering
An external processor is always recommended. This would not only make your DVD collection look better, you can make ALL sources look better. Plus it will take advantage of the high definition processing the HQV is capable of like 1080i de-interlacing.

Thanks, Kris. This is as I'd assumed, but it's always nice to get a more informed opinion before spending wads of cash. Any upcoming HQV processors I should be aware of besides the Dragonfly?

To All:

Set-up the 5910 and have let it run for a full day, Does anyone have some facts on how long a unit like this needs to burn in?

I would like to do some comparisons, but want to make sure the unit has reached close to it's full potential before doing any critical listening.

Thanks in advance

Originally posted by Papafox
To All:

Set-up the 5910 and have let it run for a full day, Does anyone have some facts on how long a unit like this needs to burn in?

I would like to do some comparisons, but want to make sure the unit has reached close to it's full potential before doing any critical listening.

Thanks in advance

I would guess that 2 seconds would be more than adequate.

Aw c'mon....

Ya gotta keep him hanging longer than that.

.............:D

Originally posted by moonhawk
Aw c'mon....

Ya gotta keep him hanging longer than that.

.............:D

Well, heck, I gave him twice the time than I allowed myself :)

You guys are brutal....Just trying to do my own comparisons between a Denon 5900 with hundreds of hours, the 5910 (new), and an Esoteriuc Dv-50..if someone has a technical answer feel free

Papafaux

It seems that with solid state devices, there really wouldn't be a break in/burn in period. Since I personally saw an improvement with my 5900 after it was used for several movies (can't say how many hours as I didn't keep up with it), I'd say that something must be going on after putting sometime on it. My only suggestion would be to run a DVD in it on repeat play (or equivalent) for a few days while you're away at work.

I look forward to hearing what you have to say after making the comparisons.

And all kidding aside, I think you're gonna like it.

I went from a 5900 also.

And I couldn't really say if there was much of a burn in, but it sure sounds sweet...I'd say a definite step in the right direction.

You should at least listen to it now, and tell us if you notice an improvement over time....:)

Kris , if I use the hdmi output from the 5910 to BenQ PE7700 pj hdmi input , can I benefit the 10bits processing?

I don't see why not. Just make sure the output on the 5910 is set to HDMI YCbCr.

Thanks Kris . Hope that it will be a good combination without blanking, pixel cropping and overscan issue on the hdmi input .

kris,

Can i use the Denon 5910 HDMI Y-CB-CR with the Infocus 7210 M1 -HDMI adapter and still get the 10 bits processing ?

Kris,

I also have the same question about the Infocus 7205, was unable to find how many bits the projector uses in their specs?

As always Thanks!

The Infocus uses 8 bit processing as far as I know. But if they have a HDMI adapter then that would be the way to go, that way you are feeding it the best signal possible.

The Infocus uses 8 bit processing as far as I know.Kris,
When you talk about processing, to what are you referring to in a display? If I send my HDTV a 1080i signal, it displays it as it is received without processing, I think? Does the HDTV still do some processing to an analog signal if the HDTV is an analog display like a CRT unit?

It is the level of processing of the gray scale and color. You will notice it mainly in the contouring of color or black/gray. As I said before, a gray ramp is excellent for this.

Kris,

First off, How ya doin' man? (check your PM).

This may be simplistic of me, but is the implication that any and all HDMI-equipped displays are capable of receiving YCbCr in addition to RGB thru HDMI? I would imagine that would be dependent on the implementation of the HDMI protocol by each individual manufacturer (or would I be mistaken?).

If that's the case, then that is another reason to favor HDMI over DVI (most ppl think there is essentially no difference in video terms).

Moory :)

All:

Kris' supplemental review is up at Secrets...

Thanks, Kris

No, thank you.

moory,

I am not sure on the YCbCr issue with HDMI. I would have to look at the spec some more. Someone else may know the answer to this though; perhaps Dale Adams. I will definately look into it though.

Kris based on your review comment:

I also did some comparisons with CD playback between the Denon and my Anthem processor. Both sounded superb, but I felt the Anthem had a bit more authority in the low end and a slightly wider soundstage. Mind you the differences were small, but perceived.

Are you now using Source Direct- On since the D1 processor has excellent bass management?

If so , how did you like Anaolg DSP vs Anolog Direct?
For 2 Channel cd listening, are you now using analog interrconnects or still digital?

Thanks

For CD playback I use the digital output of the Denon into the Anthem. For M/C I use the analog outputs using the bass management of the 5910 and have the D1 set to Anlg Dir. I have found that this sounds to the best to my ears. I did a few A/B comparisons with the Anlg DSP but found the direct to be my preference.

For CD playback I have the D1 set to stereo and I have the subwoofer level set to +4.5 in the mode trim. I balance all of the channels for Stereo, DD and DTS using the internal Anthem test tones and I use the Chesky disc mentioned in the 5910 review to balance the channels for DVD-A/SA-CD from the 5910. This might be the reason that I prefer the Anthem for CDs since they are different channel levels. But it seems to work great!!

kris,

you mention in your review that the the two video deinterlacing modes are not needed because auto mode copes perfectly with all types of material. however, i have come across a case with my denon 5900 (namely, red dwarf R2 dvd's) where the background is film sourced but there are credits overlayed on top that are interlaced video sourced. in this case, my 5900 switches to film mode, which means that the rolling credits become almost unreadable due to severe combing. would this be a case where a forced video mode is useful? or are you saying that the 5910 is able to cope with even this type of material even in auto mode?

incidentally, my 5900 is unable to cope with this material even when i switch to any of the video modes. it will still stay in film mode regardless.

thanks.

The 5910 and 5900 use completely different video processors and the 5910 handles this type of scenario perfectly in Auto. In fact, they have a test like this on their HQV test disc.

excellent. thanks for the info.

Kris,

I have th Sim2 300e which has native resolution of 720p. The manual suggests that although prog scan is higher quality than interlaced signal, it is often preferable to perform the deinterlacing operation on the projector rather than the source because the projector is equipped w/ Faroujda's DCDi.

What should I set the 5910 signal output resolution to?

BTW I watched the movie "Sideways" yesterday and the picture was AWFUL. My wife and I could barely stand it (& my wife never comments). The picture was milky, mealy, grainy -- you name it. The Fifth Element on the other hand looks excellent. I thought the 5910 did a better job on dealing with poor source material. Could it be my set up, or is this DVD just that bad on any DVD player?

Thanks!!

Hey Charlie

Use 720P out. Also, set the DNR setting to 1 for Sideways. THis is in the picture memory setups accessed by the remote. The transfer for that movie isn't the greatest but it should look a bit better with that setting.

Has anyone figured out how to display the current firmware version on the 5910? Kris?

I would also like to know.

Thanks

Thanks Kris.

I went through this thread and kept a record of the recommended settings. Funny thing is that as I went through the various set up menus there were so many audio & video options that it can make your head spin. I'm wondering if I shouldn't have the 5910 isf calibrated at the same time I have my projector calibrated.

Doubt the calibrator could help much more. Being ISF certified doesn't mean you know all the ins and outs of every DVD player out there. But they usually know more then most.

Originally posted by AV Avatar
Has anyone figured out how to display the current firmware version on the 5910? Kris?

To confirm the software version on the DVD5910:
1. Turn the small power button off on the front of the unit.
2. Hold down the PLAY and OPEN/CLOSE buttons on the front of the unit, both at the same time.
3. Turn the power back on and continue holding the buttons for 3 seconds, then let go.
4. After “>II LOADING” shows on the display, press the 3,2,6,5 buttons on the remote (in that order) and then press the MENU button to see the version.

Thanks for the help Sam. Unfortunately the procedure does not bring up the play/pause/loading message when completing steps 1, 2 and 3 like my 5900 did. When I release the play and open/close buttons the 5910 simply powers on ready for a disc. Any suggestions? Does this work for anyone else with their 5910?

Thanks Sam but it doesn't work.

AV Avatar, my 5910 reacts exactly like yours when I apply the procedure.
If someone knows how to check the 5910 firmware, please post it here. :)

Thanks

That is odd. I got those instructions directly from Denon 5910 literature.

Sam,

Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
On my previous player (3910) that same procedure used to work fine.

Thanks

Oh, well, I'm stumped! Lemme know if you guys figure it out.

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious, but did you guys make sure there was no disc in the tray before trying it all out?

According to the Denon firmware update instructions, and I will copy them here verbatim, the procedure is as follows:

1. With no disc in the player, drawer closed, turn the main power OFF with the "On/Off" button.
2. Press and hold the Play and Open/Close buttons at the same time.
3. While holding the buttons in 2 above, turn the main power ON with the "On/Off" button and release the two buttons after three seconds.
4. On the remote control, press the numeric buttons "3" "2" "6" "5"
5. Press the Menu button on the remote control repeatedly until you have checked that the two version numbers above for your model have shown in the display.
6. To reset the player, turn the Main power OFF with the "On/Off' button.

I think special attention should be paid to the fact that the player should be on and empty before you switch it off, and that the buttons should be held for at least 3 seconds after you switch it on, as stipulated above.

I hope this helps. If not, then beats me! :)

Moory

Does anyone have any information in regards to the new firmware upgrade for the DVD-5910 posted at Denon's website, as far as what it does??

It's been mentioned before on this thread - it's mainly bug fixes for three discs. It's repetitious, but as I've just been quoting from the firmware sheet, I'll answer the question anyway this one time.

Quote (from f/w notes):

- corrects returning to menu after episode index is selected on "The A-Team" disc
- corrects video&sound interruption on PAL version of Star Wars Episode 2 disc
- corrects for no output on CDDA Rick Springfield/Karma disc after track 12 @ 3:00

That's about all, it seems. This is a very specific firmware release aimed at fixing reported bugs, no performance enhancement.

BTW, I'm sure you know this, but next time just do a quick search before posting, as most ppl don't like to see the same info repeated over and over again on the same thread.

Moory :)

YellowCows,

Thanks for confirming the firmware display procedure from Denon. I did follow the procedure to the letter with no disc in the unit and I cannot get the play/pause/loading part to happen. I've upgraded firmware on my 5900 many times so I am quite familiar with the procedure when it works. Does this procedure work on your 5910?

PedroV,

Thanks for confirming that your 5910 reacts the same to this procedure.

Does anyone have experience comparing the Meridian G98 DVD player with the Denon 5910 (other than price)?

My impression is that the Realta chip is more advanced than the Faroudja DCDi in the Meridian.

I have tested these together. the 5910 outperforms the G98 in the videodepartment for sure, as it does against all other players as well. soundvice the sound very simular. I only wish the 5910 could have the G98's look and videoinputs. the G98 chassi with realta and dvdo chip would be the ultimate combo for me.

Kris and Others,

Based on the Denon 5910 follow-up article,
Can you list the steps and technique for calibration using the internal test tone of the D1, Other calibration discs, and Chesky disc.

I have been calibrating the system and have followed these steps:
1) Calibrated D1 using internal Test tone to 75 db
2) Check Levels with Sound and Vision Test disc, Volume at reference 0 and test tone registers 85db
3) Set Volume at reference 0 and calibrate 5910 DVD-A/Sacd using Chesky Disc to even levels --it registered 80 db at reference 0


Something does not sound right, would appreciate your thoughts.

Papafox

Here is what I do:

FIRST, use the internal test tones in the D1 to setup your reference levels. Use a SPL meter and calibrate to 75db.

Next, using the 6CH input set to ANALOG DIRECT, set the channel levels in the DENON to 75db with the D1 at a volume of 0 using the test tones on the Chesky disc.

That is all you need to do. Just make sure that you setup the channel distances as well in both devices and the crossovers you want to use. I used 80hz for both.

Don't worry about test tones on other discs as they are all slightly different.

Originally posted by jfinneru
I have tested these together. the 5910 outperforms the G98 in the videodepartment for sure, as it does against all other players as well. soundvice the sound very simular. I only wish the 5910 could have the G98's look and videoinputs. the G98 chassi with realta and dvdo chip would be the ultimate combo for me.

Hi Kris Deering (et al), Based on the differences between the G98 & the 5910, is it worth "upgrading" from the one to the other? Or are the differences to small to really justify that? Video-wise, what's a nutshell comparison in your book please? Thx!
Jim

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Papafox

Here is what I do:

FIRST, use the internal test tones in the D1 to setup your reference levels. Use a SPL meter and calibrate to 75db.

Next, using the 6CH input set to ANALOG DIRECT, set the channel levels in the DENON to 75db with the D1 at a volume of 0 using the test tones on the Chesky disc.

That is all you need to do. Just make sure that you setup the channel distances as well in both devices and the crossovers you want to use. I used 80hz for both.

Don't worry about test tones on other discs as they are all slightly different.

Kris,

Just curious if in your calibration you adjusted the analog input levels for the D1.

From my AVM20 manual: "If a source is playing while you adjust the input level, you will notice a vertical bar graph to the left of the dB setting. With the on-screen display, if bar graph changes from green to pink, you have gone into an overload condition. Reduce the level until the bar graph changes back to green."

I was surprised how "hot" the 5910's input votages were when I checked their default value at zero on the AVM. After reducing to appropriate levels the sound quality became far more linear and uniform.

Hope this is helpful and not redundant.

I didn't adjust anything on the D1 when I calibrated the 5910's levels. It is just used as a complete pass through pre-pro.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
I didn't adjust anything on the D1 when I calibrated the 5910's levels. It is just used as a complete pass through pre-pro.

Kris,

In that case, simply checking the analog input voltage going to the D1 (as described in my post above) may have some value for you.

Best,

Nick

Why? I understand that the levels may be hot, but in relation to what??

If I am using reference test tones and testing them all the way through, what does it matter what the voltages are. You aren't referencing to voltage, you are reference to output volume. At 0 db on my Anthem the Denon is giving me perfect 75db C weighted via a SPL meter using the test tones on the Chesky disc which are encoded using MLP at high resolution. The voltage level is irrelevant in this case.

I have a question for all your 5910 owners. What is the relationship between the separate two channel outputs and the front pair in the 5.1 group? On my 5900 the two sets of front outputs are in parallel according to the schematics. Are the stereo pair only active when two-channel mode is selected?
Also, Kris, in your review supplement you mention the SRS in two channel as a derived 5.1 signal. Are you sure about that? The manual makes it sound like just a phasey two channel effect, the same as on the 5900.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
Why? I understand that the levels may be hot, but in relation to what??

If I am using reference test tones and testing them all the way through, what does it matter what the voltages are. You aren't referencing to voltage, you are reference to output volume. At 0 db on my Anthem the Denon is giving me perfect 75db C weighted via a SPL meter using the test tones on the Chesky disc which are encoded using MLP at high resolution. The voltage level is irrelevant in this case.

Respecting your calibration methodology, I am left confused as to why then Anthem included software functionality to measure input voltage values and suggest when an input is being overloaded. :confused:

The input voltage adjustments in the Anthem make it so you don't have to worry about vast differences in overall sound level with multiple sources. You would then be relying totally on the internal test tones.

There has not been too much talk here lately on the 5910.

Any new buyers have any opinions ?

Originally posted by nelson4u
There has not been too much talk here lately on the 5910.

Any new buyers have any opinions ?

Just received mine from Crutchfield today. So am still getting it setup. Just did a quick calilbration using the THX Optimizer on one of my dvd's. Have it hooked up via HDMI. Interestingly, when I set the IRE to 0 it didn't appear to be passing BTB on the THX. So I set the IRE back to 7.5.
So far very impressed with the image quality I'm getting.
Right now listening to Springsteen's new cd on it. Also listened to soundtrack from House of Flying Daggers. Sounds great to these old ears.

Also, noted that mine has a build date of Dec 04. Haven't checked out the firmware version yet.

0 and 7.5 IRE have nothing to do with BTB.

That sets the level of where black is reproduced.

To get BTB with the 5910 via HDMI you must set the output mode to Normal in the digital video settings menu.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
0 and 7.5 IRE have nothing to do with BTB.

That sets the level of where black is reproduced.

To get BTB with the 5910 via HDMI you must set the output mode to Normal in the digital video settings menu.

Kris, I do have the output mode set to Normal. I set up my first memory setting per the recommendation you gave earlier in this thread: contrast to -2, detail enhancer to 1, NR filter to 1 and IRE to 0. I was, of course, surprised to see I wasn't showing BTB on the THX Optimizer. I then switched from that memory setting to the STD memory setting and saw the BTB pattern. When switching IRE back to 7.5, the BTB was visible on the other memory settings.
Of course, you’re right about IRE not having anything to do with BTB. If it did, then the BTB pattern wouldn’t have reappeared simply by switching to the STD memory setting.
I played around with it some more this am and found that I could get the BTB on my memory setting if I also change the brightness to +2. I’m thinking I may be better off simply leaving the IRE at 7.5. That way I don’t have to fiddle around so much with the other memory settings just to get BTB to show up.

Do you know what the settings are in the STD picture memory? I would have assumed everything in there was set to 0. So I don’t understand why there is such a dramatic difference in the displayed image between the STD setting and the memory setting when IRE is at 0. Also, why do you recommend using the 0 IRE setting rather than the 7.5 one?

Thanks for all the help you’ve given on this.

I'm running a 5910 thru a Sim2 onto a SS. By using Kris's settings and adjusting the BLACK LEVEL to -2, I got a noticeable improvement in black detail. Where you can really see it is in the Fifth Element scene with the star field (the ship's captain thinks he can destroy evil with nukes -- not too smart). It deepened the black space, and the stars retained their brilliance. What it seemed to do is lessen (if not rid of) the milky black appearance. At the same time video is still bright and vivid on the Silverstar. Has anyone else tried this, or any other tweaks beyond what Alan suggests?

BTW the milky effect can be reduced by lowering the brightness level also. It just seemed that the combo of Alan's settings and black level to -2 achieved a slightly better balance.

Carlie1,

I searched this thread but I could not find Alan's settings. Can you point them out for me ?

Ahab,
You are not supposed to see the BTB bar until you raise black level (brightness) too high. Typically, when calibrating, you increase black level until the BTB bar appears and then decrease black level until the BTB bar just disappears into the black background. With displays or players that don't show BTB you will never see the BTB bar no matter how high you set black level - the information is not there.

nelson,
Carlie1 (sic) may have meant Ahab, not Alan. :)

larry

PooperScooper,
Thanks for the info. But I am already aware of that. The problem I was encountering occured when I changed the IRE to 0 then I also had to change the brightenss setting on the Denon to -2 before I could get the BTB bar to appear. So I just ended up resetting the IRE to its default setting of 7.5. Doing that I was able to adjust the brightness setting properly using only the brightness control on the tv.

There's still a lot about calibration that I don't think I understand very well. Denon has some gamma settings that I could also adjust, but I'm afraid to even mess around with them. Also, at this point I am fairly confident of being able to adjust for brightness. Still not so confident with the contrast. Unfortunately, my tv (Sony KDF-5-WEF655) has some inbuilt limiter on the contrast so that I am unable to make the moving white bars vanish in Avia.

You may be correct about the Ahab/Alan misidentification. I've also been unable to find an Alan in this thread. Also, the setting that charlie1 referred to are really Kris Deering's. I've found them helpful in setting up the Denon for good PQ. I'm still a little confused as to why he was recommending the change from 7.5 to 0 on IRE. I also wonder if anyone knows what the settings are in the STD memory setting?
Hal

Ok, Hal, it wasn't clear from your post about the BTB bars. On Avia, you don't need to make the moving white bars vanish to calibrate contrast. As long as you see them, you are not crushing whites - which is good. :) One way to calibrate white level on a digital display is to set it to a value below OOTB level (usually torch mode) and then calibrate black level. If everything checks out ok, (BTB and whites not crushed) then check gray ramp patterns and see if whites increase all the way up to "white" and same for blacks in the other direction. If whites peak before "white" try bumping white level in either direction, recal black level, and look again. The trick is to get the settings so that you get the widest range of black->white and best looking PQ to you. Sometimes getting the widest range (highest contrast ratio) may make things not look good in dark scenes, so then you have to retry. DVE has nice gray ramp patterns with "markers" for black and white on either end of the scale, not sure about AVIA. Most of the time it is finding the best compromise, especially with LCDs. UMR's tweaks can help alot too (I'm assuming your model # is a Sony LCD RPTV). Also, you can always get your TV ISF'd. If so, make sure the person has experience with your TV.

larry

Originally posted by PooperScooper
Ok, Hal, it wasn't clear from your post about the BTB bars. On Avia, you don't need to make the moving white bars vanish to calibrate contrast. As long as you see them, you are not crushing whites - which is good. :)

Problem is, with the Sony LCD RPTV, I can max out the contrast setting and the bars still show up. At the setting my eyeballs would burn out in no time.:(


One way to calibrate white level on a digital display is to set it to a value below OOTB level (usually torch mode) and then calibrate black level. If everything checks out ok, (BTB and whites not crushed) then check gray ramp patterns and see if whites increase all the way up to "white" and same for blacks in the other direction. If whites peak before "white" try bumping white level in either direction, recal black level, and look again. The trick is to get the settings so that you get the widest range of black->white and best looking PQ to you. Sometimes getting the widest range (highest contrast ratio) may make things not look good in dark scenes, so then you have to retry. DVE has nice gray ramp patterns with "markers" for black and white on either end of the scale, not sure about AVIA.

Yes, that DVE pattern with the markers is very useful.

What I have gotten into the habit of doing is to start off using the THX Optimizer (I like the one on the Incredibles DVD) to get myself in the ball park. Then I'll use the DVE patterns to fine tune. I haven't used the Avia that much yet.
Thanks for pointing out the need to go back and forth between the contrast and brightness settings since they do impact each other. It's something I tend to forget whenever I am trying to calibrate the set.


Most of the time it is finding the best compromise, especially with LCDs. UMR's tweaks can help alot too (I'm assuming your model # is a Sony LCD RPTV). Also, you can always get your TV ISF'd. If so, make sure the person has experience with your TV.

larry

It's my understanding that the Sony warranty is voided if I make changes in the service menu of the tv. In any case if I was going to get that serious about tweaking the tv, I think your suggestion of getting it ISF'd would be the way to go.
I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the 'best compromise'. Though I still like my display, I've slowly come to realize it is not the thing of perfection I first imagined when I purchased it.:) This technology still needs some growing up to do.
Again, thanks much for your helpful suggestions.

Don't know if it has been mentioned in this thread. But it looks like JVB Digital now has a mod for the 5910 to convert it to a region-free player. I think that is very good news for those of us who enjoy the ability to view some of the great dvd releases that might not be available in our particular region.:)

But it looks like JVB Digital now has a mod for the 5910 to convert it to a region-free player.
Ahab,
In Europe (most countries) you just need to have the region free firmware installed.
I had the RF firmware installed by the dealer. The best thing is, I didn't have to pay for it. Mine played only R2 disks before.
Unfortunately I couldn't get hold of the firmware disk. :(
It plays every DVD I put in, even RCE disks.

Lucky you , Pedro.:)
I don't think us poor Yanks have that option over here.

Originally posted by Kris Deering
0 and 7.5 IRE have nothing to do with BTB.

That sets the level of where black is reproduced.

To get BTB with the 5910 via HDMI you must set the output mode to Normal in the digital video settings menu.

Just an update on my problems with the BTB patterns displaying properly with IRE set at 0.
I had my HDMI output set on "HDMI Y Cb Cr". When I changed it to "HDMI RGB". BTB shows up as expected.
Guessing my Sony doesn't like the "HDMI Y Cb Cr" signal.:confused:

Sorry -- I did mean Kris. I was thinking about Alan Gouger for the Sim2 settings.

Originally posted by YellowCows
Kris,

This may be simplistic of me, but is the implication that any and all HDMI-equipped displays are capable of receiving YCbCr in addition to RGB thru HDMI? I would imagine that would be dependent on the implementation of the HDMI protocol by each individual manufacturer (or would I be mistaken?).

If that's the case, then that is another reason to favor HDMI over DVI (most ppl think there is essentially no difference in video terms).

Moory :)

Thought I would bump this up in the hopes that Kris or someone else has been able to find the answer to Moory's question.

The HDMI receiver should/may be able to accept YCbCr but that's all the HDMI chip does - receive data and decrypt it if HDCP is used. Electronics "deeper" in the display do the rest and would have to be able to handle YCbCr video. This is display dependent. Also, a HDMI transmitter will detect a DVI device on target end and will convert YCbCr to RGB if given YCbCr.

larry

Thanks for the info, Larry.

There is a lot more to getting a nicely calibrated home theater setup than I originally thought. Not enough to look at just each component of the system on its own. Have to try and figure out how each part works with the other parts in the system. Guess one could have very good stand alone components but they just might not interact very well. Or just middle of the road components that match quite well, resulting in a better than expected image and sound.
Hal

How right you are Hal.

Hey Kris,

Wondering if the firmware update changed any of your benchmark settings for contrast ect. in the 5910.

Thanks ahead of time.

Papafox

5910 owners,

Please can you confirm whether or not the 5910 sends out a correctly formatted 4:3 image for 4:3 material when using the digital output (i.e. 4:3 image with black bars on either side) or does it stretch the image to fill a 16:9 space like the 5900?

It is formatted correctly even at HD resolutions.

The firmware change did not address the contrast issue, but once you set it correctly in the pic menu, it is a non-issue anyways.

Any word on whether current production 5910 models are equipped with Denon Link 3? I plan to buy a 5910 in the next few months, but want to make sure it has Denon Link 3. Is the build date provided on the outside of the player's packaging? Will there be a way to determine whether a particular 5910 has Denon Link 3 without opening the box?

Don't know, but assuming it does, what would you hook it to?

Don't know, but assuming it does, what would you hook it to?
How about an AVC-11XV (aka: 4806)?

Which are now shipping by the way (and a bargain at the same price as the DVD-A1XV/5910 too!).

:rolleyes:

Good to know...

Ok guys...I am back after ordering more stuff from Tweeter that they are adding to my ticket with the 5910 that they have been holding. So here is my question:

Do I still spend the bucks for the 5910 or hold off now and buy a cheaper (like Pioneer 59AVI) model and wait for a HD dvd player later this year? I won't talk price but I will say that I will get at LEAST 25% off retail on either (they are making an earlier "bad" deal right).

By the way...I will be trading in my Denon 5900 for about $1600 to make the move so I either will get money back (if I get the 59avi) or paying a bit out of pocket (if I get the 5910).

What would you do this "late in the game" as some say?

I think it depends on the size of your exisiting DVD collection. If you have a large number of discs I'd get the 5910, as it will maximize your enjoyment of those discs. This is especially important in light of the efforts of the two competing HD formats to reach a compromise. If this pushes the rollout date back the 5910 looks better and better. Furthermore, how long will it take for the Blu-Ray catalog to even come close to the present DVD catalog? I think NetFlix shows just under 30,000 DVD titles; assuming half those are crap ask yourself how long it will take the studios to put out 15,000 titles in the new format. I'm planning on viewing my old DVDs for some time, as my personal guess is a two-year wait for the new format to establish itself...

By the way...I will be trading in my Denon 5900 for about $1600 to make the move so I either will get money back (if I get the 59avi) or paying a bit out of pocket (if I get the 5910).

And now that the IScan HD+ can accept 480i over HDMI, why not a combo Pioneer Elite 59avi + IScan HD+? You can easily find this combo for 1600-1700$

It's like using an SDI-player without the need to SDI mod anything.

Plus you can process and scale all your other sources also...

Ok guys...I am back after ordering more stuff from Tweeter that they are adding to my ticket with the 5910 that they have been holding. So here is my question:

Do I still spend the bucks for the 5910 or hold off now and buy a cheaper (like Pioneer 59AVI) model and wait for a HD dvd player later this year? I won't talk price but I will say that I will get at LEAST 25% off retail on either (they are making an earlier "bad" deal right).

By the way...I will be trading in my Denon 5900 for about $1600 to make the move so I either will get money back (if I get the 59avi) or paying a bit out of pocket (if I get the 5910).

What would you do this "late in the game" as some say?

I moved from the 59avi to the 5910 and couldn't be happier, so i guess you know which I would choose in your situation. :)

Tthere's not a drastic difference in the PQ of the two players (though the display can also impact this), but the denon really shines in the area of music playback. Also, the build quality seems to me to be much better on the denon.

I don't know about you, but I am certainly not going to buy the first generatin of hd players. Given the past history of other electronic products, I think it safe to asume that it will take a little time for the major bugs to be worked out of it. And I won't be surprised if it takes a couple of years for a large enough selection of hd dvd's to be available to make it worthhile getting a player. So am planning to use my current dvd player for a long time.

I think it depends on the size of your exisiting DVD collection. If you have a large number of discs I'd get the 5910, as it will maximize your enjoyment of those discs. This is especially important in light of the efforts of the two competing HD formats to reach a compromise. If this pushes the rollout date back the 5910 looks better and better. Furthermore, how long will it take for the Blu-Ray catalog to even come close to the present DVD catalog? I think NetFlix shows just under 30,000 DVD titles; assuming half those are crap ask yourself how long it will take the studios to put out 15,000 titles in the new format. I'm planning on viewing my old DVDs for some time, as my personal guess is a two-year wait for the new format to establish itself...

Well about 6 months ago I sold my entire 400 dvd collection on Ebay as "lot" for a really good price. I was not even thinking ahead to Blu-Ray but I guess my timing was good. So I do not have a collection anymore (beyond about 10 titles).

But even if I continue to view old dvds I could pocket some money and get the Pio.

And now that the IScan HD+ can accept 480i over HDMI, why not a combo Pioneer Elite 59avi + IScan HD+? You can easily find this combo for 1600-1700$

It's like using an SDI-player without the need to SDI mod anything.

Plus you can process and scale all your other sources also...

Nice idea. Would this combo give me a better picture than my 5900? My display is a Mits 62725 dlp. I will probably get the 73" 1080 Samsung dlp this fall.

Oh by the way...I am also picking up the Mits 2000U DVHS this week. I know it is a dying technology but it could also serve to tide me over (with a 59avi) until Blu Ray since there are still decent DVHS titles out there and I can archive HD movies from cable/satellite.

One more thing to factor in my 5910 decision.

Oh by the way...I am also picking up the Mits 2000U DVHS this week. I know it is a dying technology but it could also serve to tide me over (with a 59avi) until Blu Ray since there are still decent DVHS titles out there and I can archive HD movies from cable/satellite.

One more thing to factor in my 5910 decision.


You're just running through TV's like hot cakes, what happen to the days when you kept a TV's for ten years? I don't think the Mits 2000 DVHS can play D-Theater tapes.

Don't hold you breath on Blu-Ray disc, this format war is about to get nasty. :eek:

You're just running through TV's like hot cakes, what happen to the days when you kept a TV's for ten years?

You are so right...also I would hate to see the list of dvd players changes this group has made in the last two years (if the rest of you early to mid adopters are anything like me!!).

And now that the IScan HD+ can accept 480i over HDMI, why not a combo Pioneer Elite 59avi + IScan HD+? You can easily find this combo for 1600-1700$ Plus you can process and scale all your other sources also...
Don't know why I didn't think of that, since I plan on (eventually) using my 59AVi with an Algolith Dragonfly/MosquitoHDMI combo...

Help...

I just installed a 5910 and have been looking at the video movie quality difference with respect to my old RT10 and Sony S7000. 5910 is clearly better. DVE and Avia test images can clearly show this difference and I recorded the differences with my camera. YC delay is lower, Chroma Roll-off is not as bad, I see sharper images and the moving Avia zone plate looks quite good. I looked at images using DVI (2ft cable) and Component attachments to a Runco DHD/VX1000ci projected on a 8.75 foot wide Grayhawk screen.

But I have a problem that I would like some advice on. Background: I wanted to also use the 5910 for showing JPG images stored on CDr to my family and friends. In the past we have to squeeze around my 15" laptop screen. With the 5910 the CDr images look pretty poor. So I created a test bmp file with some small pixel test areas including a bunch of sets of 1 pixel on a black background, 2x2 4 pixel squares, 3x3s, and 4x4s, some 4p strips, small color bars etc) and converted the test image to JPG format using the ACDsee tools (best quality jpg). Full image sizes are 1024x768, 1280x720 and 3008x2000 pixels (that last matches my max. camera image size). None of them look very good using the 5910.

With these test JPG files, I was able to really see the problems. I dont know what I can do to with the 5910 settings or what size images might be close to a pixel to pixel map. Any suggestions would be helpful.

To give you an idea, look at the 4 pixel square (16 pixels) in the file for better yet the 1st link below. With the 5910 you get a fuzzy ball about 3 on pixels tall and from 1 -3 pixels tall with fuzz around. Look at the screwed up red in the attached image. Notice the white pixels below the yellow strips, red squares and green strips. I can see perfect pixel to pixel maping on my laptop full screen.

Like my laptop, the Runco DHD should be factory tuned for the VX1000ci. Using the internal Runco test patterns, the image shape edges are good. (e.g 1 pixel transitions vs the 5910 2-3 pixels for a shape transition). Point is, I think this is a 5910 problem not a Runco problem.

Hope someone has some knowledge on this subject and can help me. If your interested, I upload the JPG files at the following web locations.

5910CDrVSLaptopZoom.jpg shows the 4x4, 3x3 pixel squares from my Laptop
and from the 5910 side by side. The character 4 is made from single pixel lines. Notice how it is blurred into 2 pixel wide lines from the 5910. I have no idea what the problem is with the 3 pixel green and red squares might be, they look pretty bad.

Http://www.geocities.com/rjmalm2001/photos/5910CDrVSLaptopZoom.jpg

Http://www.geocities.com/rjmalm2001/photos/5910PhotoCDr.jpg

Http://www.geocities.com/rjmalm2001/photos/1024x768test5910.jpg

Http://www.geocities.com/rjmalm2001/photos/1280x720test5910.jpg

Http://www.geocities.com/rjmalm2001/photos/DHDgeneratedPattern.jpg

Thanks for reading,

Rick

I am considering buying a 5910. I just need to know how difficult it is to properly setup this dvd player. Does it require professional calibration? I have a mitsubishi dlp tv which has been professionally calibrated. When my tv was calibrated last year I had a 3910. At that time the guy who calibrated the tv left the 3910 with the factory settings and nothing was changed. Does the 5910 take a professional to setup and calibrate it. The store I bought my 3910 form does not have much experience with the 5910. My 3910 was recently ruined in a lighting storm. :confused:

lechuakka,
AFAIK, you calibrate the display device to the existing source device(s) not the other way around.

Any updates, dignified gossip, etc., on when/if the 5910 will have additional video resolutions (e.g., 1368 x 768, etc.) and whether the ESS decoder will be upgraded?

Any updates, dignified gossip, etc., on when/if the 5910 will have additional video resolutions (e.g., 1368 x 768, etc.) and whether the ESS decoder will be upgraded?

Small world, Nicholas... I'm another curious "Nick" who is interested custom resolutions for the 5910 AND in the same 1368X768 output for my Sony HS10. Pixel mapping with the 5910 would clearly be the last stop before HD DVD.

Kris, anyone... any news on this front?

Any news on DL3 for the 5910? I sent an e-mail to Denon, but they have not responded. I want to buy one, but I want to make sure it has DL3.

Has anyone had their 5910 audio section modded for "higher quality" sound - so that it is competitive with the "cost is no object" 2/multi-channel "audiophile" CD-only or SACD-only players?

In particular, one modder ( http://www.aplhifi.com/ ) has gotten very positive user comments for his Denon mods.

I ask only because I auditioned the 3910 a few months ago and found the audio to be less than stellar and am now considering either the Denon 5910 or the Esoteric DV-50s.

Thanks,
Craig

Any news on DL3 for the 5910? I sent an e-mail to Denon, but they have not responded. I want to buy one, but I want to make sure it has DL3.

I saw a note in the Audioholics forum that you should call the DENON repair number for more details on the upgrade. The phone number is: 973-396-7494 (Ext. 492).

I am trying to find a 5910 that comes from DENON already upgraded. Does anyone know of something on the outside cardboard box (the shipping box) that shows that the 5910 has been upgraded to DL3?

LRS3, My 5910 with a June'05 build date has a paper in with the manual in 7 different languages explaining how to setup the denon link third edition.
So yes, you can select 3rd in the denon link menu.

I saw a note in the Audioholics forum that you should call the DENON repair number for more details on the upgrade. The phone number is: 973-396-7494.

I am trying to find a 5910 that comes from DENON already upgraded. Does anyone know of something on the outside cardboard box (the shipping box) that shows that the 5910 has been upgraded to DL3?


If the build date is on the outside of the box that would be a way to tell. I got mine with a june 05 build date and it had DL3 built in. I am not sure if the serial # reflects the build date but my serial # starts with 506, which if permuted somewhat could reflect 6/05 (I seem to remember someone saying they did this for the 3910 serial #'s to reflect the build date but I am not sure((serial # is on the outside of the box))). anyone who knows more about this could perchance confirm this..

I had to wait for mine until july (ordered it at the beginning of june)--I ordered mine through tweeter, who doesn;t stock them--they get them from a central shipping place in illinois, as such I imagine that one you got through them would likely have dl3 active. I also noticed crutchfield was out of them for a while and then had them again--they may be able to tell you more about the build dates but it seems that there was a production delay for some time. I think anything that shipped june or after from denon has dl3 active.

also, denon isn;t the most useful source of info. I contacted them the actual week asking whether they would be shipping with dl3 active and their reply indicated that they had no idea when dl3 would come active on the 5910 as "the 5910 isn;t ready for dl3 yet." This was the week when I ordered one that had dl3 active... I inquired whether it would be a software or hardware (need to ship it) upgrade and he said he didn;t know.

I would plug your serial # into the upgrade part of the denon website and see if anything comes up, as the 3910 fix is apparently out there (after a long delay!!).

Any news on DL3 for the 5910? I sent an e-mail to Denon, but they have not responded. I want to buy one, but I want to make sure it has DL3.

I just received a 5910 with a build date of June 2005. It definitely has DL3 (although this doesn't do me any good). If the one you buy has an older build date and doesn't have DL3 installed, you should be able to download a firmware upgrade from the Denon website.

Has anyone had their 5910 audio section modded for "higher quality" sound - so that it is competitive with the "cost is no object" 2/multi-channel "audiophile" CD-only or SACD-only players?

In particular, one modder ( http://www.aplhifi.com/ ) has gotten very positive user comments for his Denon mods.

I ask only because I auditioned the 3910 a few months ago and found the audio to be less than stellar and am now considering either the Denon 5910 or the Esoteric DV-50s.

Thanks,
Craig


After drinking a bunch of red wine on a friday night take anything I state with a grain of salt. I just received a Denon 5910 a few days ago. I bought it to replace an Onkyo SP1000. The SP1000 had video quality that I was happy with, but lacked in the audio department (IMHO). I was hoping that the 5910 would be a step up in both regards. First impression (24 hrs constant break in playing music) is that the 5910 has the best video quality I've ever seen. My Pioneer 1120 plasma seems to like 720P better than 1080i--a clear contrast to the Onkyo and my comcast HD boxes which didn't show a big difference between 1080i and 720P but for which I settled on 1080i as my preferred input.

When I listened to my favorite SACD using the analog outputs (Norah Jones--in fact the only SACD), the Onkyo way outperformed the Denon. The Onkyo had a much larger soundstage, and the music had a noticeably dimentional sound where different instruments and voices appeared to originate at distinct locations on the soundstage. The Onkyo also had more pizazz and presence. The Denon sounded dull by comparixon. (note that I will give another audition after the Denon has played for more than 100hours).

The Onkyo always underperformed when I used it as a digital transport into my Hermes II tube DAC that has a very sweet tube sound. This combo sometimes exhibited distortion that was not pleasant. With the limited audition to date, the Denon outperforms the Onkyo.

I plan to break the 5910 in for several more days and try to do some critical listening over an upcoming weekend.

Has anyone had their 5910 audio section modded for "higher quality" sound - so that it is competitive with the "cost is no object" 2/multi-channel "audiophile" CD-only or SACD-only players?

In particular, one modder ( http://www.aplhifi.com/ ) has gotten very positive user comments for his Denon mods.

I ask only because I auditioned the 3910 a few months ago and found the audio to be less than stellar and am now considering either the Denon 5910 or the Esoteric DV-50s.

Thanks,
Craig


After drinking a bunch of red wine on a friday night take anything I state with a grain of salt. I just received a Denon 5910 a few days ago. I bought it to replace an Onkyo SP1000. The SP1000 had video quality that I was happy with, but lacked in the audio department (IMHO). I was hoping that the 5910 would be a step up in both regards. First impression (24 hrs constant break in playing music) is that the 5910 has the best video quality I've ever seen. My Pioneer 1120 plasma seems to like 720P better than 1080i--a clear contrast to the Onkyo and my comcast HD boxes which didn't show a big difference between 1080i and 720P but for which I settled on 1080i as my preferred input.

When I listened to my favorite SACD using the analog outputs (Norah Jones), the Onkyo way outperformed the Denon. The Onkyo had a much larger soundstage, and the music had a noticeably dimentional sound where different instruments and voices appeared to originate at distinct locations on the soundstage. The Onkyo also had more pizazz and presence. The Denon sounded dull by comparixon. (note that I will give another audition after the Denon has played for more than 100hours).

The Onkyo always underperformed when I used it as a digital transport into my Hermes II tube DAC that has a very sweet tube sound. This combo sometimes exhibited distortion that was not pleasant. With the limited audition to date, the Denon outperforms the Onkyo.

I plan to break the 5910 in for several more days and try to do some critical listening over an upcoming weekend.

Could also be that the Denon is rendering the SACD more accurately than the Onkyo... How about DVD-A? Also typical studio recordings are usually downmixed mulit-mono, where all the ambience is created artificially.

You have hit it on the head. Certainly components can add brightness, focus, etc., to any recording. Often different isn't necessarily better or worse, it's just different. And as you pointed out, what's in the rest of the chain is important. Manufacturers often err on the side of adding more detail, presence, etc., to the music than what's really there in the recording. Go listen to a symphonic concert; the real life presentation bears little resemblance to a typical multi-miked, fixed-in-the-mix recording.

Many of us could easily differentiate popular brands of amplifiers, power cords, etc., in terms of what they do to the soundstage, timbre, focus and so forth.

I'll have a 5910 in September and will do a detailed evaluation of the audio quality (multichannel mainly) between DVD-A, SACD, DTS, DD, etc.

Could also be that the Denon is rendering the SACD more accurately than the Onkyo...
Nick, to what comment is this directed?

Mike,
What's the rest of your audio gear? I believe you're the first to compare the SP1000 against the 5910 for audio.

larry

Ooops. :) Nick I think you replied to a post I deleted. After I posted it I thought I had missed a post that you had replied to and didn't want to post something out of context. Anyway...

I've spent all afternoon playing with the Denon 5910 and comparing it to my Onkyo SP1000. This afternoon was devoted to 2-channel audio. So far, I like the Denon video better than the Onkyo when watching through the HDMI outputs, but I haven't yet spent enough time to tweak and calibrate everything---so these comments are limited to audio.

My equipment is:
Digital Transport: Anthem CD-1 (6 disc CD player) or my HTPC computer (Lynx L22 sound card) or Denon 5910 or Onkyo SP1000
DAC: Perpetual technologies P1A (reclocking and upsampling) and Kora Hermes II DAC with old Amperex tubes
Amplification: BAT VK31SE preamp and BAT VK75SE power amp
Speakers: Von Schweikert VR4JR with Bybee quantum filters

I listened to the Onkyo and Denon via their analog outputs directly to the preamp or as digital transports into the P1A.

First SACD (analog outputs)-- IMHO, the Onkyo wins hands down. The sound is less harsh, there is more richness to tone and less of an edge. There is also better soundstaging and detail. I own about half a dozen, and for most of them, I prefer the redbook CD sound. Sure there is better detail on the SACD layer, but I find the tone to have too much edge--My opinion might change if I could play the SACD layer through better quality tube DAC circuitry (ie tubes). The only SACD that I have for which I prefer the SACD layer is Norah Jones--especially on the cut "Come Away with me." OK--Pink Floyd DarK Side of the Moon" has pretty awesome sound effects at the beginning of cuts like "Time" and "Money" and where a bit of edge in tone quality is not too negative of a quality. The two reference cuts used for serious listening were Nora Jones-"Come Away with Me" and Ray Charles with Natalie Cole-"Fever" from his "Genius Loves Company CD".

DVD-A--I only have one DVD-A: Daves True Story "Sex Without Bodies" I also have a CD--these are pretty high quality Chessky recordings. Unlike for SACD, both the Onkyo and Denon blow away my favorite Redbook CD playback system. Better detail, soundstage and dynamics. At first listen, I think I prefer the Denon a bit more--but the players have different qualities. The Onkyo has a smother sound, while the Denon seems to have better sound dynamics--it actually has a darker, but also a haunting sound. Its quite beautiful. I might have to check out more DVD-As.

For redbook CD--I also like the Onkyo better--but there is less difference between the players. This applies both to using the analog outputs and to using them as transports into my P1A and Hermes. In general they were close. I did slightly prefer using the tube DAC over direct analog outputs, but it was a trade off. Better dynamics, detail, and rhythm using the analog outputs, but also a slightly irritating edge and less rich tone--especially noticeable on vocals. In addition to the two reference cuts used for the SACD layer, I also did careful comparisons listening to Cassandra Wilson--"The Weight" from her "Belly of the Sun" CD. I particularly like the percussion in the introduction, the vocal quality, and I pay attention to finger snapping detail. After spending about an hour switching between the Denon and the Onkyo, I popped some CDs back into the Anthem as transport into the P1A/Hermes combination. Ahhh--transported to a new dimension in magic--soundstage bigger--sound more relaxed and quiet between the music--timing and rhythm more coherent and tone to give you goosebumps. My computer doesn't match up to the Anthem but is getting pretty close since I installed the Lynx sound card--and my computer as a digital transport outperforms the Onkyo and Denon by a pretty noticeable margin.

Whats next: When I purchased the Onkyo and the Denon, I was pretty optimistic that they could replace my old Anthem CD-1 as a digital transport for CDs--I wasn't expecting them to have the audio quality of the Hermes DAC. However, I was quite surprised to find that the Anthem kicks their butts--and I don't understand why. I am considering having Chris Johnson (currently of Parts Connexion--and the founder of Sonic Frontiers and Anthem) modify my Denon 5910 to up the audio quality. He has developed an upgrade that provides a 2 channel balanced tube output stage. He puts in upgraded power supplies, a new clock, new op amps, upgraded resistors and capacitors and some Bybees. He claims this to be superior to any of the Sonic Frontiers redbook CD equipment (such as the Transport 3/ Processor 3 combo). Given that Chris designed and manufactured the Anthem CD that is the digital transport I have used, I have high hopes for this mod. Chris also states that the DACs in the Denon 5910 (and also the 3910) are set up to provide a balanced output, but that Denon mixes the signal into a single ended output that degrades the sound quality. Since I have BAT amplification which is designed to used balanced audio signals, I think that there is a good chance that I can take full advantage of a balanced audio output option for the Denon. I need to spend time next weekend tweaking the video and watching movies to really gauge the 5910 video quality before making any such decision.

Given that Chris designed and manufactured the Anthem CD that is the digital transport I have used, I have high hopes for this mod.

I don't know how true this statement is. I've talked with the Anthem engineers quite a bit over the last few years and based on their comments Chris had little to nothing to do with engineering or design at Sonic Frontiers or Anthem. Pete would probably be the mastermind in that regard. From what I've been told, Chris was more of a PR guy.

I don't know how true this statement is. I've talked with the Anthem engineers quite a bit over the last few years and based on their comments Chris had little to nothing to do with engineering or design at Sonic Frontiers or Anthem. Pete would probably be the mastermind in that regard. From what I've been told, Chris was more of a PR guy.


I stand corrected--I don't know anything about the inner workings of Sonic Frontiers. The mod is described as:

"This module was conceptually designed by Chris Johnson, Sonic Frontier's (SFI) founder and former president....the actual circuit design and electro-mechanical integration was developed by two of SFI's former senior designers - Glenn Dolick and Zdenko Zivkovic."

Thanks for the info, Mike. WRT SACDs, I can see where you're coming from when you say they sound "bright" and/or "edgey". But, there are well recorded SACDs that don't have that sound and eclipse their redbook counterparts. Of the discs you mention, I have "Dark Side" - very good SACD recording given the age of the masters, and Cassandra Wilson's CD - an exellent (mastered "hot" compared to a lot of other CDs) sounding CD. (for my point of reference, my profile has my gear).

larry

[QUOTE= So far, I like the Denon video better than the Onkyo when watching through the HDMI outputs, but I haven't yet spent enough time to tweak and calibrate everything---so these comments are limited to audio. [/QUOTE]


Anybody else had a chance to play with the noise reduction--i have been watching a lot of commercial dvd rentals lately and have been amazed at what the noise reduction can do with the graininess of some dvd's--it is neat to be able to actually adjust it to the actual level of noise that is in the picture with an individual dvd. Maybe there is a tiny bit of picture softening at 3 but imho, that's better than watching picture granularity!

To me, this particular feature of the unit's processing has really made watching suboptimally made dvd's tolerable, even enjoyable and is at least a partial justification for the price differential between it and less expensive competitors...

anyone else have experience playing with this feature?

I agree the noise reduction feature is very useful feature which gives a little insight into what might be going into some of the new video processors using this noise reduction technology although I have primarily been following Kris Deering's recommendation of +1, I have not exprimented with the setting of 3 as you have.

I don't recommend going over +1 because of motion blurring. This is typical of NR because the processing still isn't fast enough. If they could figure out a way to buffer out a whole bunch it would probably help. That way the processor would be working on the image long before it is supposed to go onscreen. Guess that would just be another little tweak that would go a long ways.

If you look at DVDs with slow pans or camera shaking, you'll see the blurring I'm referring to. I see it all the time with digital cable feeds because the companies are using them to try and clean up their images and it makes them look like crap. I find it very distracting and I notice it immediately.

The other drawback of the HQV filter is artifacts that happen with vertical lines because of the filter. I've only seen it a handful of times, but it is there. There is a bridge in the opening sequence of the new Grudge movie that shows it. The pans in the video montage of DVE with the buildings also has the artifact. If you cycle between off and on you'll see what I mean.

Help me out here guys... please.

I downloaded the latest upgrade Firmware from their Web page.

It contains three files. The step by step instructions only mention burning the .cfw file using a CD burner like Nero and doing a ISO image.

Do I also burn the other two .rom files the same way (Nero, ISO image, etc), or do I just drag and drop them onto separate CDs ??

Thanks!!

-- Cain

Help me out here guys... please.

I downloaded the latest upgrade Firmware from their Web page.

It contains three files. The step by step instructions only mention burning the .cfw file using a CD burner like Nero and doing a ISO image.

Do I also burn the other two .rom files the same way (Nero, ISO image, etc), or do I just drag and drop them onto separate CDs ??

Thanks!!

-- Cain

Cain, Are you upgrading a 5910? If so, there is no upgrade posted on the DENON (USA) web site. I've been told and read that for the upgrade DENON must be contacted (see apend above).

My local Tweeter's DENON rep also said that if you try to use the 3910 DL3 software to upgrade a 5910 there is a chance that this will prevent the 5910 from working again.

Where did you get a 5910 upgrade from?

If the build date is on the outside of the box that would be a way to tell. I got mine with a june 05 build date and it had DL3 built in. I am not sure if the serial # reflects the build date but my serial # starts with 506, which if permuted somewhat could reflect 6/05 (I seem to remember someone saying they did this for the 3910 serial #'s to reflect the build date but I am not sure((serial # is on the outside of the box))). anyone who knows more about this could perchance confirm this..

I had to wait for mine until july (ordered it at the beginning of june)--I ordered mine through tweeter, who doesn;t stock them--they get them from a central shipping place in illinois, as such I imagine that one you got through them would likely have dl3 active. I also noticed crutchfield was out of them for a while and then had them again--they may be able to tell you more about the build dates but it seems that there was a production delay for some time. I think anything that shipped june or after from denon has dl3 active.

also, denon isn;t the most useful source of info. I contacted them the actual week asking whether they would be shipping with dl3 active and their reply indicated that they had no idea when dl3 would come active on the 5910 as "the 5910 isn;t ready for dl3 yet." This was the week when I ordered one that had dl3 active... I inquired whether it would be a software or hardware (need to ship it) upgrade and he said he didn;t know.

I would plug your serial # into the upgrade part of the denon website and see if anything comes up, as the 3910 fix is apparently out there (after a long delay!!).

Thanks for all the info...

The DENON web site says that there are no upgrades available for the serial number that Tweeter tried to sell me. This unit also came from the Illinois warehouse but had a January build date. That serial number started with 501. So, I think you found the key to the puzzle. Thank you!! I guess the next two digits must be the model type (84 for this serial number).

BTW, as I wrote in the previous append, I've read and have been told that in order to upgrade the DVD-5910 the owner must call the DENON repair center first. I don't know if this means a board replacement or that they are controlling the upgrade software. I guess it could also mean they are making a list for when the US upgrade is available.

My bad !! I'm upgrading a 3910 and posted this to the wrong thread !!
Sorry...