8300HD and External SATA - It Works!! [Text View] - Page 9

DoubleDAZ

06-01-06, 11:32 PM

Don't want to be a party pooper, but I have yet to see any evidence that there is even a HARD reboot feature on the 8300. It's not documented anywhere and when I hold the power button while plugging in the cord, I do not notice any difference in the display sequence, nor the time it takes for the box to boot, nor does it fix any freezing/stuttering problems on the DVR.Sure it is, it's documented in the first post of the Tips thread compliments of vegggas. :)

I'll defer to vegggas for more specifics, but from what I understand, if your firmware and IPG are not hosed, there won't be much, if any, noticable difference in reboot speeds. However, if the firmware in ROM is hosed, then the hard reboot will reload the latest firmware from the headend, the same with the IPG. Everything else is pretty much the same; clear the cache, clear memory, reset several indicators, etc. I've had some cases myself where I've done a soft reboot only to still have the problem, invisible third recording conflict comes to mind. A hard reboot fixed it.

flyerman

06-02-06, 08:24 AM

Can someone please tell me what cable to get for my Maxtor Sata? Please.

pepar

06-02-06, 08:44 AM

Can someone please tell me what cable to get for my Maxtor Sata? Please.
The 8300HD has an eSATA connector and so does the Maxtor, so you need an eSATA-to-eSATA cable.

davehancock

06-02-06, 10:42 AM

The 8300HD has an eSATA connector and so does the Maxtor, so you need an eSATA-to-eSATA cable.

How can you make that statement (I know from your post count that making statements is easy)? Lots of Maxtor drives use the standard Type "L" SATA 1 connector! Flyerman needs to provide more info (specific model number) before anyone could possibly answer the question.

pepar

06-02-06, 01:53 PM

How can you make that statement (I know from your post count that making statements is easy)? Lots of Maxtor drives use the standard Type "L" SATA 1 connector! Flyerman needs to provide more info (specific model number) before anyone could possibly answer the question.
Guess I was being glib, assumptive and myopic. I read "Maxtor SATA" and saw Maxtor Quickview Expander. Don't know why, but that's what happened. You're right; more details are needed to answer accurately - bare drive, with or w/o case? If with case, which one?

davehancock

06-02-06, 02:59 PM

Guess I was being glib, assumptive and myopic. I read "Maxtor SATA" and saw Maxtor Quickview Expander. Don't know why, but that's what happened. You're right; more details are needed to answer accurately - bare drive, with or w/o case? If with case, which one?

I believe that the QV Expander will come with the correct eSATA cable, after all that's what that drive is marketed for. But, I believe that most all SATA drives these days have the plain old type "L" connectors (SATA, or SATA-I, or whatever) on them.

pepar

06-02-06, 03:04 PM

I believe that the QV Expander will come with the correct eSATA cable, after all that's what that drive is marketed for. But, I believe that most all SATA drives these days have the plain old type "L" connectors (SATA, or SATA-I, or whatever) on them.
Indeed, I believe the eSATA connector is only for external connections. A bare drive is intended to be mounted in a case.

vegggas

06-03-06, 03:18 AM

Ignore this post unless it applies to you - for everyone else, enjoy???
I found a boat anchor with SATA written on it. It weighs about 5.5 Kilograms. I figure it has about 12 pounds of HD (High Density) material on it. Does that sound right?
What kind of cable (or chain) would I need to connect it to my DVR?
I figure I can move the HD material to my PC, but If I drop it onto my PC without the correct cable, will it damage the PC? Early testing shows that I can see the anchor resting on the PC from several yards away with no loss in PQ, as long as I'm careful and use the correct codecs and drivers ( I just switched my driver over to Danica Patrick last year).
:D
burrrrrrp.
I looked through the SA documentation, but it doesn't list anything about boat anchors or even drivers - I wonder when they will get around to fixing this and list specific boat anchors and drivers that do work...
Seems that cable companies are not supporting external drives or boat anchors either. Hmmm... I hope I didn't buy this anchor for nothing. damn bastards, I read that SATA would work with my DVR!
vegggas
p.s.
yeah, my wife thinks I'm an @-hole too! :rolleyes:

if this post is offensive to anyone, PM me and I will delete it and post more informative data... tomorrow - maybe!
v

WAFlowers

06-03-06, 08:10 AM

I figure I can move the HD material to my PC, but If I drop it onto my PC without the correct cable, will it damage the PC?
You won't be able to use the external SATA drive to move HD material to your PC. Everything recorded is encrypted, specifically tied to that unit. That is, my 8300HD will encrypt different than yours (a unique encryption key).

In addition, I have no idea what filesystem is being used. I'm reasonably sure it isn't NTFS and quite sure it isn't FAT32.

BPlayer

06-03-06, 08:57 AM

I figure I can move the HD material to my PC, but If I drop it onto my PC without the correct cable, will it damage the PC?You think you have problems. How do I connect my iPod to the PVR for recording of music channels. There is so much good free music of variour genre available over cable on about 20 channels.

If a SATA drive can be connected to a PVR and to a PC, and an iPod can be connected to a PC, then there must be a way to connect it to the PVR. When will SA wake up and tell us how, and get the software properly updated. I need it now, now.....now!!!!

DoubleDAZ

06-03-06, 09:35 AM

ROTFLMAO!!!! vegggas, I thought that was hiliarious. :) :D :)

pepar

06-03-06, 09:54 AM

You won't be able to use the external SATA drive to move HD material to your PC. Everything recorded is encrypted, specifically tied to that unit. That is, my 8300HD will encrypt different than yours (a unique encryption key).

In addition, I have no idea what filesystem is being used. I'm reasonably sure it isn't NTFS and quite sure it isn't FAT32.
Bill - vegggas was skewering everyone repeatedly asking the same stoopid questions. :)

vegggas

06-03-06, 02:56 PM

Owww. My head hurts....
Explanation to previous post - I found a BOAT ANCHOR with the letters S A T A written on it... The anchor is HD = High Density material, meaning it weighs a lot.
The title of the previous post eludes to my mental state at the time too.
Do I need to continue... :D

evil vegggas has left the building

vegggas

06-03-06, 03:00 PM

You think you have problems. How do I connect my iPod to the PVR for recording of music channels. There is so much good free music of variour genre available over cable on about 20 channels.

If a SATA drive can be connected to a PVR and to a PC, and an iPod can be connected to a PC, then there must be a way to connect it to the PVR. When will SA wake up and tell us how, and get the software properly updated. I need it now, now.....now!!!!
Actually, anything analog can be made into MP3 or recorded externally, so you could record the analog audio out and use that into a playback device. I've burned a CD of continous dance / club music for ambiance music on a project.

vegggas

WAFlowers

06-03-06, 05:56 PM

Bill - vegggas was skewering everyone repeatedly asking the same stoopid questions. :)
<sigh> That's what happens when you post before having your morning coffee.

I had too much blood in my caffeine stream! :eek:

pepar

06-04-06, 09:10 AM

<sigh> That's what happens when you post before having your morning coffee.

I had too much blood in my caffeine stream! :eek:
hahaha - it usually happens to me when i've had tooo much espresso. :)

rgrossman

06-04-06, 04:38 PM

Believe it or not, espresso has less caffeine than regular coffee. "Light roast" has the most, because roasting destroys caffeine.
Of course, having extra shots of espresso is another matter.;)

pepar

06-04-06, 05:00 PM

Believe it or not, espresso has less caffeine than regular coffee. "Light roast" has the most, because roasting destroys caffeine.
Of course, having extra shots of espresso is another matter.;)
I did not know that. I do a quad-shot cappucino every morning with a roast from Coffee Emergency called "Code Brown" CBX Dark Roast. Sorry, OT.

flyerman

06-05-06, 08:13 AM

Sorry my fault. I have an internal Maxtor drive to the 8300HD. I would assume and please correct me. That i need a "I" esata to "L" sata connector cable. Can i pick this up at Comp usa?

RaveD

06-05-06, 10:11 AM

Believe it or not, espresso has less caffeine than regular coffee.
True but they pack a lot more coffee into a single shot of espresso than a single cup of drip coffee so it winds up having as much if not more caffeine.

Hey, I wonder if caffeine would help my 8300HD to stop freezing on playback. It's worth a shot. Worst case I get to exchange my box for another one with different problems :rolleyes:

pepar

06-05-06, 10:20 AM

Hey, I wonder if caffeine would help my 8300HD to stop freezing on playback. It's worth a shot.
bwaaa-ha-ha-haaaa

davehancock

06-05-06, 10:54 AM

Sorry my fault. I have an internal Maxtor drive to the 8300HD. I would assume and please correct me. That i need a "I" esata to "L" sata connector cable. Can i pick this up at Comp usa?

Sorry that these guys are so jacked up on caffine or something that we seem to have lost track of your question. Your assumption is correct, though I doubt that you will find the cable at CompUSA (or any other local store). Check at the beginning of this thread for sources - the original source was Cruz systems, but other sources have been mentioned in this thread. eSATA (Type "I") is not in wide use, so only niche (on-line) sources are available.

Riverside_Guy

06-05-06, 11:08 AM

FWIW, it's looking that the shift from the L-shaped (internal) SATA connectors to the different eSATA external connector is in really starting to cook (in the computer world). Two months ago, I had to ask 16 times to make sure my connectors matched up (I was creating an external SATA array and the box I got had eSATA connectors and cables).

That being said, I AM wondering about multi-drive external arrays working with the SA8300HD. I can pout together a 600G external array (box, cables, drives) for well under 300 bucks...

CANNON-FODDER

06-05-06, 11:16 AM

Discussed before, but no definitive answer that I recall. I believe there was some evidence presented that [repeaters or port replicators or whatever the official term is] were not supported.

I think the consensus was that equipment that was open and honest would not work, but equipment that lied or looked like one big eSATA drive might work - subject to the [big HHD or memory allocation] issues.

YMMV,
C-F

Riverside_Guy

06-05-06, 11:47 AM

Ah...the term is port-multiplier. Essentially means that 2 drives go through one port/controller. I would doubt/question this being an issue... in computers, a 2 drive setup would still present itself to the OS as 2 drives; it would be some extra OS (or third party) software that would do an array. Not to mention there are very different "kinds" of arrays, stripped or mirrored would be the most used.

davehancock

06-05-06, 12:40 PM

pepar

06-05-06, 12:47 PM

WAFlowers

06-05-06, 02:03 PM

Stripped arrays are my personal favorite.
Stripped or striped? I assume a misspelling.

pepar

06-05-06, 02:04 PM

Stripped or striped? I assume a misspelling.
By the original poster, but not me. :)

WAFlowers

06-05-06, 02:07 PM

GAH! I've got to disable my humor filter. I keep missing obvious jokes! :eek:

Riverside_Guy

06-06-06, 10:09 AM

Stripped or striped? I assume a misspelling.

Errr, Freudian slip?

Good to see that SA agrees with my technology assessment!

jbburks

06-07-06, 08:31 AM

If you're with TW, besides the fourth FF/Rew speed (read - really halls booty), the front A/V RCA jacks are live too. It's nice to be able to plug a game console to the 8300HD and pres the input select on the remote and play a game.

Besides those two things, I don't know what else the new firmware did...

Regards, Matt

When TW pushed the 1.88 version out in Memphis, I got all these features AS WELL as fixing the problems I had with the external SATA drive stopping recordings early. I've had it on over a month - recorded over 100 shows in HD and SD both. Never a problem with recording ending early. Occasionally, a small glitch (freeze in video) on playback for <1 sec.

davehancock

06-07-06, 10:57 AM

bkushner

06-08-06, 05:52 PM

Well, TW in Rochester pushed 1.88.17.a100 about a month ago. The problem with early stopping of recordings continues (we had it before), and perhaps has become a little worse. I don't think that this release has anything to do with this particular problem.
My software hasn't changed and I've started with the early stopping of recordings problem just the other day.

The light stays on RECORDING the entire hour or whatever timer is set to, however when I go to playback there is only 3, 4 7 etc minutes recorded.

Any ideas what would suddenly cause this? My signals seem in the normal range?

Brian

Riverside_Guy

06-09-06, 10:34 AM

Indeed, I have seen this happen! Both with a 8300HD and a 8000SD. But very, very rarely (like twice in 2+ years). I always wondered WTF?

Obviously, there are bugs in the software (there always are). Most don't realize that some bugs are pretty rare and thus are extremely hard to track down.

davehancock

06-09-06, 10:47 AM

bkushner

06-09-06, 12:40 PM

I've always suspected that this issue was related to problems with IPG data. Earlier discussions of the issue have indicated that the problem was somehow linked to certain stations/networks (FOX & ABC).

I'm seeing mine mainly on Starz although it did do it on Discovery. This is all of a sudden. Is there anyway to fix this?

davehancock

06-09-06, 01:42 PM

I'm seeing mine mainly on Starz although it did do it on Discovery. This is all of a sudden. Is there anyway to fix this?

It has been claimed that the problem is minimized by doing a HARD Reboot (unplug power on DVR, wait 1 minute, plug back in WHILE HOLDING POWER BUTTON on front panel in till "run around" stops). Not a bad practice, but don't believe it is a total cure.

bkushner

06-10-06, 12:17 AM

It has been claimed that the problem is minimized by doing a HARD Reboot (unplug power on DVR, wait 1 minute, plug back in WHILE HOLDING POWER BUTTON on front panel in till "run around" stops). Not a bad practice, but don't believe it is a total cure.

Will this delete my already recorded programs?

It's really annoying, now doing it on all HD shows. SD is fine.

DoubleDAZ

06-10-06, 12:24 AM

You shouldn't lose any recordings, I never have.

The reboot is not a cureall, but things happen, memory gets fragmented, cached data gets corrupted, etc. The 8300 is a mini-PC and suffers similar ills. Never rebooted your computer? :)

pepar

06-10-06, 08:27 AM

arto2000

06-10-06, 02:20 PM

davehancock

06-10-06, 07:18 PM

I have a question about connecting 8300HD to a standalone DVD recorder.
I have my 8300HD connected to my TV directly through HDMI. Is it possible to connect DVD recorder through component connection and transfer my favorite recordings to DVDs ?
In manual they only talk about Copy to VCR feature but that only works with coax connection and will provide worse quality in my opinion.
Anyone tried it already?
thanks

Check out the regular SARA thread - this has been often discussed.

The short version: the best quality will be via S-Video connection and recording the program as you watch (don't use "Copy to VCR" function). This also allows you to make anamorphic recordings of HD programs. To do this: change set-up to SD ("A" button in Set-p Wizzard. Now the # key on the remote will make a squeezed version on the S-Video output. Record your program and when done, run the set-up wizzard to restore your normal HD settings. Works like a charm (I use it twice a week).

:)

bkushner

06-11-06, 01:49 AM

It has been claimed that the problem is minimized by doing a HARD Reboot (unplug power on DVR, wait 1 minute, plug back in WHILE HOLDING POWER BUTTON on front panel in till "run around" stops). Not a bad practice, but don't believe it is a total cure.

This seems to have done the trick. Recordings are again being fully recorded.

Thanks for the tip.

Brian

flyerman

06-12-06, 09:53 PM

I have updated my 8300HD with a 250GB HD with my cable just received. I inserted the cable and the it shows do you want to format the drive. I say "yes" and after a while checked my space. It still didn't show more room by showing 90% full. Am i doing something wrong? Should I reboot? How do you reboot the 8300? Thanks.

davehancock

06-13-06, 10:28 AM

You need to do a reboot. You do this by unplugging the power cord to the DVR (but not to the external hard drive), waiting 30 seconds or so, and plugging the power cord back into the DVR. You can turn the DVR back on (via power button) after the clock appears. After this you should see the extra capacity.

BTW: A HARD reboot is the same as the above, except you hold the front panel POWER button in as you plug the power back in. Let the POWER button go after the "go around" on the front panel stops.

Also the above is for SARA. Not sure if Passport is the same.

rransi

06-13-06, 06:00 PM

bkushner

06-13-06, 10:31 PM

My problem is back. Contacted Comcast, they obviously have no clue..here is there response.

Dear Brian,

There are no reported problems with DVRs stopping recordings prior to the
scheduled time block. Are the programs you are recording starting and
stopping at the top of the hour or at the half hour? Some channels such
as HBO and MTV do not start programs at the exact top of the hour. This
is a marketing tactic to get you to tune in to the next show. Once the
first show goes off, the next show starts right away instead of running
commercials or promotional spots in between. Since DVR recordings are set
based on time blocks it is possible you could miss the beginning or end of
a particular program if the channel is not starting and stopping shows at
the top of the hour or at the half hour. In the future, try modifying
your recordings to start 5 minutes before and 5 minutes after the
scheduled time. I attached the user guide for your DVR so you can see how
to modify your recordings. The attachment is in a .PDF format.

davehancock

06-13-06, 10:52 PM

DoubleDAZ

06-13-06, 11:25 PM

That does it. I will never complain about a Cox CSR again! :) :D :)

Actually, I think item B sums it all up. It's tough to be lying when you are too ignorant to even know you are lying. :)

rransi

06-14-06, 08:55 AM

Riverside_Guy

06-14-06, 09:04 AM

pepar

06-14-06, 09:12 AM

Riverside_Guy

06-14-06, 09:17 AM

This person is:
a) Lying
b) Ignorant
c) Overly dependent on a database that has apparently not been updated in years.
d) Can't read the problem in the database (I guess that is the same as b)
e) In denial (same as a).

Take your choice: there have been tons of documented cases in the country and on the AVS forum of these problems - both with and without external drives. But I have come to expect stuff like this from Comcast.

Uh, there's no "lying" here; this is an issue and I've been bitten by it. Not the cable provider's fault. The guy's advice IS correct if the problem is that the opening few minutes or the closing few minutes are getting cut off.

However, it doesn't address the original request (I assume it was "I set a recording and it stops 3-5 minutes into it"). Like I said, I've seen this happen, but very, very rarely. If it repeats on you frequently, I think you should be able to get the box swapped. It is possible that a minor hardware glitch could be causing the OS to do this on a more frequent basis.

pepar

06-14-06, 09:38 AM

Uh, there's no "lying" here; this is an issue and I've been bitten by it. Not the cable provider's fault. The guy's advice IS correct if the problem is that the opening few minutes or the closing few minutes are getting cut off.

However, it doesn't address the original request (I assume it was "I set a recording and it stops 3-5 minutes into it"). Like I said, I've seen this happen, but very, very rarely. If it repeats on you frequently, I think you should be able to get the box swapped. It is possible that a minor hardware glitch could be causing the OS to do this on a more frequent basis.
I think davehancock's point was that it's not all that rare, quite common in fact, and more of a broad issue with the boxes. And for the CSR to listen to your symptoms and then give an answer that didn't address your problem is maddening. So, didn't he hear you or didn't he know?

jruhnke

06-14-06, 09:56 AM

Did anyone here actually use an enclosure with an IDE drive instead of a SATA drive? In other words, the enclosure's external interface would be SATA but internally it would have IDE connector for IDE drives. Any performance issues when using this kind of configuration? I am asking because IDE drives are available much cheaper than SATA drives.I haven't tried using an IDE drive with my 8300HD, but last year when I was building a new PC, SATA drives were still somewhat hard to come by at a decent price. To take advantage of the SATA ports built into the motherboard, I puchased a couple of $20 IDE-to-SATA adapters. I just used Windows' built-in speed test via the Device Manager to compare a native SATA drive against an IDE drive with a SATA converter, and here are the results:

150MB/s SATA drive:
Theoretical limit: 150.0 MB/s
Burst speed: 122.3 MB/s
Sustained speed: 67.4 MB/s

100MB/s IDE drive via SATA adapter:
Theoretical limit: 150.0MB/s (because it's plugged into the SATA port on the mobo)
Burst speed: 81.2 MB/s (because it's really got a 100MB/s interface)
Sustained speed: 62.4 MB/s

Bottom line: HDD performance is ultimately limited by the physical part of the technology (the spinning platters) rather than the electronic part of the technology (the interface). If your application takes big advantage of the drive's cache, you can benefit from the faster interface (burst mode). If the cache doesn't come into play much for your application, then you'll see performance closer to the "sustained" rate. There's not much difference between the sustained rates of the IDE and SATA drives I compared.

So it's not clear to me that there'd be a technical problem using a good IDE drive with the DVR. But that said, I disagree that there's a significant price difference between IDE and SATA drives nowadays. You're also likely to spend more to find/create an enclosure that converts from IDE to SATA. If the drive's ~$30 cheaper, but the enclosure's ~$20 more, is it really worth the ~$10 savings?

If you're seeing a big price difference, then I suspect you're comparing apples to oranges (refurbished drives vs. new?) or else you're not shopping hard enough! :)

Edit: For what it's worth, the 300GB Seagate I've had attached to my 8300HD without any problems for over four months now is a 7200RPM, 8MB cache SATA drive. (And according to the Seagate data sheet (http://www.seagate.com/docs/pdf/datasheet/disc/ds_barracuda7200.8.pdf) , there is an ATA100 version of this drive with essentially identical performance specs.) I got it for $99 after rebate from Fry's back in February.

pepar

06-14-06, 10:29 AM

I haven't tried using an IDE drive with my 8300HD, but last year when I was building a new PC, SATA drives were still somewhat hard to come by at a decent price. To take advantage of the SATA ports built into the motherboard, I puchased a couple of $20 IDE-to-SATA adapters. I just used Windows' built-in speed test via the Device Manager to compare a native SATA drive against an IDE drive with a SATA converter, and here are the results:

150MB/s SATA drive:
Theoretical limit: 150.0 MB/s
Burst speed: 122.3 MB/s
Sustained speed: 67.4 MB/s

100MB/s IDE drive via SATA adapter:
Theoretical limit: 150.0MB/s (because it's plugged into the SATA port on the mobo)
Burst speed: 81.2 MB/s (because it's really got a 100MB/s interface)
Sustained speed: 62.4 MB/s

Bottom line: HDD performance is ultimately limited by the physical part of the technology (the spinning platters) rather than the electronic part of the technology (the interface). If your application takes big advantage of the drive's cache, you can benefit from the faster interface (burst mode). If the cache doesn't come into play much for your application, then you'll see performance closer to the "sustained" rate. There's not much difference between the sustained rates of the IDE and SATA drives I compared.
I think cache size is very important for DVR expansion. Older drives - IDEs - tend to have smaller caches. And some newer SATA drives are even optimized for streaming video where error correction - re-reading - can get in the way of smooth video. Better to take a slight glitch in the picture than to experience a freeze while the drive goes back to re-read.

If you've got an IDE drive already, I understand the motivation to use it. But for someone starting from scratch, a new 7200RPM, 16MB cache SATA drive is the way to go.

rransi

06-14-06, 01:37 PM

Thanks to all who responded to my question about using IDE drives with SATA enclosures. Very valuable information indeed. I will go with SATA drive based on the feedback provided.

Thanks, once again.

RaveD

06-15-06, 10:50 AM

With my 300GB expansion installed, having freezing and skipping problems since day 1.

Recently I noticed something interesting. The problem is much worse on shows recorded off analog channels. For example if I record a show off USA, it is almost unwatchable, with constant freezes and skips.

If I record a HD channel, I get much fewer problems, generally 2-3 times per hour.

Has anybody else noticed this? I find it odd, since I have already concluded that most glitches are playback, and not recording, related.

pepar

06-15-06, 11:07 AM

vegggas

06-15-06, 12:16 PM

Analog channels are real time encoded to digital at the STB for recording. This does take proccessing and menory resources. If your system was running low on those resources, this could be what you are seeing.
BTW, I set my PIP or second tuner to a non-recordable/bufferable channel (music ch for me) to reduce memory, buffer, and processor overhead. At each timer power down and power on (down three hours daily) the STB is set to have both tuners set to non-bufferable music channels. This works the best for me. The worst case scenario is recording multiple programs while playing back a third, where resources are in the greatest demand.
People are quick to think that the playback is the problem, because they can rewind and the glitch is gone. That is not really the case. As an mpeg is playing back, it can usually overcome many errors, until it reaches a point where the error count overcomes the processing, resulting in a visible glitch. Using the rewind or jumpback, resets the error count, since you have disrupted the constant mpeg flow through the processor and memory, thus not visibly glitching at the same point again.

vegggas

bkushner

06-15-06, 08:20 PM

vegggas

06-15-06, 09:03 PM

How do I turn the second tuner to a a non-recordable/bufferable channel
The easiest way is to tune to a non-bufferable channel, bring up the PIP, then swap, now the PIP is wherever you left it.
If you use timers, you can set them to do a timer turn on to a specific channel at a specific time, and you can also have yor STB go to a specific channel whenever it's turned on. This set both of my tuners to music channels. Your bufferable channel may be different - explore and test for yourself to be sure.

vegggas

jruhnke

06-15-06, 11:42 PM

For what it's worth, in my area, the music channels are buffered just like any other channel. I think the only two channels not recorded/buffered (aside from those displaying static "you must subscribe to this channel before viewing this program" messages) are my iControl channel and the DVR playback channel (channels 001 and 998, respectively).

CANNON-FODDER

06-16-06, 12:23 AM

The music channels in KC (TWC-PASSPORT) seemed to be buffered when I tested, but the OnDemand (Free service) channels were not*. I used BBC and Comedy for my [rest] channels.

v/r,
C-F

* based on: HDD noise buffer set up pause when switching off them jump to channel 1 whenever the DVR auto-swapped to that [resting] tuner after some time-out period

rransi

06-16-06, 09:01 AM

Folks, one more question please.

After reading through this thead, I see that in the past, 500 GB SATA drives were not recommended because of certain issues such as too much activity taxing he resources of SA 8300HD, flash ram being able to handle limited amount of data which could cause problems with on the fly compilation of recorded programs in memory etc. It was also pointed out that Maxtor's Quickview DVR drives only came in 160 GB and 300 GB, probably for the same reasons.

I now see Maxtor Quikview available with 500 GB as well. So I am guessing that 500 GB drives should not be a problem, espcially if I am only going to be recording HD stuff only, which should limit the contents of the in-memory program list.

Anyne here using 500 GB drives? If yes, can you please share your experiences?

Thanks.

free2day33611

06-16-06, 09:36 AM

rransi,
Maxtor web site only has the 160 and 300 GB drives. Look only at the Quickview Expander. The 500 that you saw was their external storage, not the Quickview.

pepar

06-16-06, 09:52 AM

RaveD

06-16-06, 11:51 AM

What lead you to conclude that [problems occur on playback]?
Because if I rewind over the same scene where a freeze occurs, it will play through without a problem the second time.

pepar

06-16-06, 12:15 PM

Because if I rewind over the same scene where a freeze occurs, it will play through without a problem the second time.
vegggas had comments on this at post #2068.

Riverside_Guy

06-16-06, 01:10 PM

pepar

06-16-06, 01:39 PM

Odd, in the past week I have noticed the "freezing/skipping" thing happening while watching live (only the buffer recroding going on) wwith no additional recording going on. And no external drive (yet).
I guess there's no way to defeat live-from-buffer viewing to see if it's the source . . .

CANNON-FODDER

06-17-06, 11:44 AM

I guess there's no way to defeat live-from-buffer viewing to see if it's the source...At one time there was a difference between changing to a 480i channel and the first use of any buffer-function (II,FF,RW). The indicator lamp would change and there would be a 'jump' in the picture as the buffer was engaged. (never saw a distinct quality difference) Hitting LIVE, or FF all the way to the front did not return [you] to the distinct 480i/[no-buffer] state. The only way to get back to this state was to change off the channel and back again. This does not occur now.

Of course, not having insight to the actual way the code was written, these could be other symptoms masquerading...

(TWC-KC, PASSPORT 8.112)

v/r,
C-F

rransi

06-22-06, 12:09 AM

Success!

Comcast Cable, Cherry Hill, New Jersey.

SARA: 187.23.1
OS: 6.14.43.1

Enclosure:

Vantec NexStar 3 NST-360SU-BK External 3.5in Hard Drive Enclosure

https://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=370891

==> Enclosure includes eSATA cable.

Hard Disk:

Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 ST3300622AS 300GB SATA 7200RPM 16MB Buffer

https://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=101543

Works like a charm. Used space went from 66% to 20%.

(Cold boot was required after attaching the SATA drive to SA 8300HD).

bkushner

06-22-06, 07:52 PM

rransi

06-22-06, 08:52 PM

I'm Comcast Cherry Hill as well. What internal drive does your 8300 have? Is it a WD?

Yes, it is Western Digital.

Internal Drive: WDC WD1600BB-56GUCO
Capacity: 148 GB
Drive Firmware: 20.02H20

Burkhardi

06-22-06, 09:39 PM

No (why would you expect Passport on this thread). His system is SARA, and is about to be taken over by Time Warner. Time Warner has been rolling out SARA 1.88.17.100 in upstate NY over the last month or so.

Can you expand on this? What is finxing to be taken over by Time Warner?

Riverside_Guy

06-23-06, 11:24 AM

How come TWC is on area runs SARA on SA8300 boxes, and Passport/Echo/Aptiv on the same box in other areas?

SARA in NY State, but Passport in NYC????

RussB

06-23-06, 02:53 PM

How come TWC is on area runs SARA on SA8300 boxes, and Passport/Echo/Aptiv on the same box in other areas?

SARA in NY State, but Passport in NYC????It depends on the other equipment the cable company uses. SARA is compatible with SA equipment, while Passport is compatible with Pioneer equipment. I don't remember the specific details.

rransi

06-23-06, 03:56 PM

pepar

06-23-06, 04:09 PM

bkushner

06-23-06, 07:51 PM

DoubleDAZ

06-23-06, 09:42 PM

pepar

06-23-06, 09:49 PM

Timeout, SARA is an SA product and Passport is a Pioneer product and I think technically third parties might even be involved. In any case, both sets of software run on mulitple systems. For example, they both work on the SA8300HD and which one is used depends on the cableco and even the specific market within that cableco.
The director of technical operations at my cable company told me that they tested both software/firmware packages and found the Pioneer product to be superior to the SARA product. He further allowed that SARA has come along way since then, but Passport has been a robust product for them.

jruhnke

06-23-06, 10:01 PM

DoubleDAZ

06-23-06, 10:27 PM

The director of technical operations at my cable company told me that they tested both software/firmware packages and found the Pioneer product to be superior to the SARA product. He further allowed that SARA has come along way since then, but Passport has been a robust product for them.Yeah, that may very well be for them, especially from an engineer's POV.

I have SARA at home in Arizona and am using Passport as we speak on TWC in North Carolina. There are some things I like about Passport, it certainly "looks" nicer, but I can't wait to get back home to SARA. It functions much better for me and how we watch TV on a daily basis.

My biggest gripe is having to use multiple keys for some options vs the Select key and scrolling (if the default option is not what I want). Something as simple as General Settings takes 2 different keys (Settings and "A") vs SARA's use of the Settings key only.

I do like the bookmarks feature, especially for our busy schedule here and the number of folks using the DVR to view different parts of programs, but that is not even close to how we watch TV at home, so it's simply a nice feature to me.

pepar

06-23-06, 10:32 PM

The only common theme I've been able to glean out of all the discussion in this thread is that we're all still scratching our heads! :confused:

One thing that seems to be an indicator that you might have trouble is if your 8300HD has a Western Digital drive in it. (Mine has a 160GB Maxtor.) So far, there's no solid explanation for why that should be the case, though.
Yup, I've seen others make that observation, but I'm clueless as to if - or how - it has anything to do with the problem. More Passporters may soon get the green light from their cable companies to attach drives and then the universe will expand and the additional data points may give us more insight. My Passport 8300HD's have Maxtor internal drives and so far both work fine with externals except for loss of live TV trick-play features.

RussB

06-24-06, 02:18 AM

It depends on the other equipment the cable company uses. SARA is compatible with SA equipment, while Passport is compatible with Pioneer equipment. I don't remember the specific details.

Timeout, SARA is an SA product and Passport is a Pioneer product and I think technically third parties might even be involved. In any case, both sets of software run on mulitple systems. For example, they both work on the SA8300HD and which one is used depends on the cableco and even the specific market within that cableco.

This is the post I remembered from the Yahoo explorer_8000 forum that explained why some cable company divisions use SARA, while other divisions use Passport. Please note the date (Dec 6, 2003) and that all the figures are out of date. Sorry, if my post was not clear on what I meant.

From: "ex_sfa" <ex_sfa@y...>
Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 5:37 pm
Subject: Re: Explorer Software Different from TW from City to City??

As of the end of 2002, there were approx. 14 systems using SARA and
20 systems were using Passport within the Time Warner Cable (TWC) MSO.
6 systems use the Passport-DCT IPG for MOTOROLA based systems. 3
systems use the TV-Guide IPG for MOTOROLA based systems.

Please also understand that TWC also has some system which use the
Motorola based platform (Houston is the largest of these).
Previously, the Motorola based systems were using Pioneer's Passport-
DCT. TWC has signed a contract with Gemstar-TV Guide and will be
changing out their Passport-DCT with the TV Guide IPG.

-------------------------

Each TWC system has the choice to select which ever DSTBs base that
fits their needs. Scientific-Atlanta, Pioneer, and PACE Micro
Technology has provided DSTBs to fill these needs. It has been
estimated that approx. 15% of the 18 million DSTBs have been provided
by Pioneer (2.7 million), with Pace Micro providing approx 2%. The
balance of the DSTBs have been provided by Scientific Atlanta (15
million). The vast majority of DSTBs have been the Standard Digital
models, with Pace and Pioneer providing a very small subset of HDTV
version of DSTBs. Pace has just begun their launch of their HD
version of the DSTB in the Bright House Network in the Tampa Florida
system.

Just like the equipment base, the individual cable systems get to
select their version of the Electronic Program Guide (EPG) or
Interactive Program Guide (IPG) that will be used. There would be a
different subset of equipment at the headend to control the
management of the Pioneer OS/IPG environment. These control systems
push out the necessary code into the DSTBs. Updating of software is
done in the same way for the upward migration of function and
features that operate in the DSTBs.

================================

In regards to your statement of Comcast, there are approx. 14
different cities (systems) within their footprint which use the
Scientific-Atlanta Platform of equipment. This represents approx.
10% of the digital subscribers that Comcast has currently. None of
the Comcast systems use the Passport IPG from Pioneer, but use the
SARA IPG from Scientific-Atlanta. Their MOTOROLA based systems (90%
of the base) use either the TV-Guide IPG and a very small number used
the TVGateway
IPG, but are most likely swapping those systems out, because of the
discontinuation of the TVGateway IPG product.

--- In explorer_8000@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry" <jlreed@y...> wrote:
> Anybody have a good inside answer as to why this is? I could easily
> understand why say Comcast would use SARA and TWC used
> Passport/Echo. But why the use of two different OSs by the same
> company? Is it related to the headend plants in the individual
> system?
>
> JR
>
> --- In explorer_8000@yahoogroups.com, "ex_sfa" <ex_sfa@y...> wrote:
> > TWC of Memphis, Tenn is using SARA from Scientific-Atlanta
> >
> > TWC of Cincinati, Ohio is using Passport from Pioneer
> >
> >
> > --- In explorer_8000@yahoogroups.com, "tn_friend"
<tn_friend@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > After looking at the picture screen shots for Cincinati Time
> > Warner,
> > > and comparing them to what we have here from Memphis Time
Warner
> > for
> > > the Explorer 8000, I was hoping someone could explain to me why
> the
> > > software is completely different.
> > >
> > > It appears to have alot more features built into it and more
> user
> > > friendly, compared to what we have here.
> > >
> > > Thanks

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

2weeks

06-24-06, 02:53 AM

DoubleDAZ

06-24-06, 08:14 AM

RussB,

That info is still relatively accurate and I understand the point you were trying to make based on it, but I think your use of the term SA and Pioneer "equipment" is misleading, at least it was to me. :)

Anyway, SARA and Passport "software" both run on a variety of STBs. Which software is used is determined by the supporting software run at each headend. If a given cableco designed their system around SARA support, then their STBs (regardless of make) will use the SARA software. If they designed around Pioneer, then they will use Passport, etc. Had you said SARA runs on SA-based support equipment and Passport runs on Pioneer-based support equipment, your statement would have been more accurate is all I'm trying to say.

I have no idea who makes the specific equipment used at the headend and I doubt it is all SA, Pioneer, Motorola, etc., just that they load software to support whichever system (SA, Passport, Moto) they decide to use on their STBs. As pepar mentioned, his cableco tested both SARA and Passport, and perferred Passport. I seriously doubt they swapped out all their headend equipment to do their tests, but just loaded different support software and found Pioneer-based support more to their liking.

I just didn't want anyone to get the idea that SARA and Passport are tied to any specific hardware (though there might be some pieces of specific equipment involved) vs the support software loaded on whatever equipment the cablco uses. :)

pepar

06-24-06, 11:29 AM

Fry's has a 300GB Seagate external eSata drive for $229. Is this just a SATA drive with an eSata case?
If not, Will I notice any performance gain by getting this as opposed to using a SATA case/SATA drive & then a SATA-to-eSata cable (which is what I think the current solution is).
eSATA devices by definition have an EXTERNAL connector. The eSATA spec also addresses the cable. Signal-wise, there is no difference between SATA and eSATA. A bare hard drive intended for internal mounting - computer case or external drive case - will always have an SATA connector, and external enclosures - at least newer ones - will always have an eSATA connector. There are still quite a few external enclosures available that have an SATA connector, but I believe they are a holdover from before the eSATA spec was created/ratified.

What was the question? Oh yeah . . there will be no performance difference. :)

2weeks

06-24-06, 03:53 PM

Thanks for the info. I suppose I should have just asked outright.
Does the eSATA hard drive exist? Just a bare eSATA drive that outperforms the SATA drive. Sorry if this is common knowledge.

dps-raleigh

06-25-06, 11:58 AM

Since I never watch live TV, I can live with the well documented "trick buffer" problems (why would anyone with a DVR every watch TV live?), so I wanted to add an eSATA external hard drive to my 8300. I bought a 300gb Seagate ($114 at Buy.com) and a cheap external enclosure.

Then I tried every technique mentioned here to get it working, but without success. After booting, the 8300 would sometimes complain that the external HD was not working properly, sometimes it didn't get that close. I tried a Hitachi 250gb drive I've been using on a computer for a couple of years and got about the same results. I never (in about 25 tries) got to the "Format external HD?" prompt.

:mad: Finally I gave up. Then TWC replaced the 8300 (which, on the 3rd service visit, finally cleaned up the 4-times-per-hour picture MPEG macro-block "glitches/hiccups" I was consistent seeing on all channels/times/days). I decided to try again with the new 8300.

The Seagate consistently was seen, but as "not working properly".
When I tried the Hitachi drive, however, it worked.
The exact sequence was:
1. power up and connect the drive;
2. cold boot 8300 (plug in power cord while holding in the power button;
3. got the dreaded "not working properly" prompt;
4. unplugged the eSATA cable (without powering off the 8300 or the drive;
5. re-plugged the eSATA cable (eSATA cables are designed for hot plugging);
6. got the lovely "Format?" prompt; format took about 2 min and everything proceeded to work properly. :)
(steps 1-5 had been tried with the Seagate drive, but did not result in "6".

Strangely, the channel 999 diagnostic menu's DVR menus still show one SATA device, but the capacity has jumped to 361gb (original internal WD 160gb IDE drive + Hitachi 250gb eSATA drive - overhead). The format start/done events were listed on the SATA page. The system has worked properly through a couple of power off/disconnect//power on//power off//reconnect sequences with no problems, but I haven't had a real random power failure yet.

the players:
Seagate 300gb ST3300831A 7200.9 SATA drive; a new SATA II/3gbit design; currently replacing the Hitachi on a PC. This drive has a jumper that allows it to negotiate SATA II & 3.0gbit vs. SATA I & 1.5gbit or else forces SATA I & 1.5gbit only; The drive didn't work with the 8300 either with and without the jumper installed on the drive. (the ATA version of this drive is on sale 6/25/06 at Circuit City for $90--for use on a PC only, it's a nice drive).
Hitachi 250gb, HDS722525VLSA80 SATA drive; has been in use on a PC for a couple of years, SATA I,1.5gbit only;
SA 8300HD running Passport v48;
Time Warner Cable, Raleigh NC;
AZIO USB2+eSATA aluminum external enclosure (ENC311SU41) $40 with cables from Shop4Tech.com. A very classy box the supports both eSATA (for high speed) and USB2 (for compatibility) interfaces. The drive must be SATA. It does not include, or need, a fan, which is what I wanted to keep noise down.

pepar

06-25-06, 01:08 PM

The Seagate consistently was seen, but as "not working properly".
When I tried the Hitachi drive, however, it worked.
The exact sequence was:
1. power up and connect the drive;
2. cold boot 8300 (plug in power cord while holding in the power button;
3. got the dreaded "not working properly" prompt;
4. unplugged the eSATA cable (without powering off the 8300 or the drive;
5. re-plugged the eSATA cable (eSATA cables are designed for hot plugging);
6. got the lovely "Format?" prompt; format took about 2 min and everything proceeded to work properly. :)
(steps 1-5 had been tried with the Seagate drive, but did not result in "6".

Strangely, the channel 999 diagnostic menu's DVR menus still show one SATA device, but the capacity has jumped to 361gb (original internal WD 160gb IDE drive + Hitachi 250gb eSATA drive - overhead). The format start/done events were listed on the SATA page. The system has worked properly through a couple of power off/disconnect//power on//power off//reconnect sequences with no problems, but I haven't had a real random power failure yet.
From my limited experience - did it twice with immediate success both times - the 8300HD (Passport on mine) needs to be on when the (also "on") external drive is attached.

Riverside_Guy

06-26-06, 11:13 AM

free2day33611

06-26-06, 01:23 PM

Finally got an external hard drive to work.

I had purchased the Netegriti 300GB eSata from Discount Technology and it did not work (my post 1926). The instructions from Discount Technology stated "Known to not work with Brighthouse Cable".

I then purchaced the 300 Quickview Finder from Maxtor and it worked perfectly. The capacity went from 80% full to 37%.

Location: Tampa, Florida
SA 8300 HD
SARA version: 1.87.16.a109
Hard Drive: Maxtor 4R160L0
Cable Co.: Brighthouse

pepar

06-26-06, 01:33 PM

While I don't doubt you about one drive not working an another working, it just shows you how bad, bad, bad the software side of these DVRs really is. I've used tons and tons of hard drives on my various computers over the years and the ONLY time I had any issues was with the very first run of Seagate Cheetah drives back 20 some odd years ago. I had three in a row fry on me; the fourth one was undoubtedly from a different production run, it never failed.
We don't know anything about the SATA host controller. Perhaps that's part of the problem. Perhaps there's a hardware/firmware conflict between it and some drives.

Re free2day33611's post: DiscountTech sells quality products and I'm sure the drive was perfectly functional - just not with the particular STB.

Beta testing of Passport/8300HD & SATA is happening now and it will be interesting to see if the same problems arise with that combo as the SARA/8300HD users are experiencing.

rransi

06-26-06, 08:58 PM

Comcast Cable - Cherry Hill, New Jersey
SARA: 1.87.23.1

Well, the elation of having successfully installed external SATA disk did not last long. Ever since I installed external SATA drive, I am getting tons of pixelation, screen freezing issues. This happens for recordings as well as live TV.

PS: Most of my viewing / recording is in HD.

External SATA drive is Seagate 300 GB w/16MB buffer.

What could be causing all these issues. These are very annoying. Pixelation and momentary screen freeze happens every 2-3 minutes while playing back recordings and every 5-10 minutes while watching Live TV.

Anyone experiencing the same? What can I do to alleviate this issue? I have cold rebooted the SA 8300HD box several times but that does not seem to be helping.

Drive-wise, the Seagate w/16MB buffer would seem to be up to the task of multiple hi-def streams if it's spinning at 7200rpm. I'm not a SARA user, but I've read posts like yours before. Quite a few in fact. I think a few here have a working theory, so hopefully one or two will pipe up to reply. My impression is that Maxtor Quickview drives seem to be less troublesome; they are specifically tweaked - don't ask - for streaming video.

I have a 300GB Maxtor Quickview attached to one of my 8300HD boxes and a 500GB Maxtor Quickview attached to the other. Passport 2.5.052. No problems yet.

And I have a 300GB Seagate with an 8MB buffer, and after five months of use I've never had a lick of trouble. (I've got SATA 1.87.16.1.)

The only common theme I've been able to glean out of all the discussion in this thread is that we're all still scratching our heads! :confused:

One thing that seems to be an indicator that you might have trouble is if your 8300HD has a Western Digital drive in it. (Mine has a 160GB Maxtor.) So far, there's no solid explanation for why that should be the case, though.

Jim

Yup, I've seen others make that observation, but I'm clueless as to if - or how - it has anything to do with the problem. More Passporters may soon get the green light from their cable companies to attach drives and then the universe will expand and the additional data points may give us more insight. My Passport 8300HD's have Maxtor internal drives and so far both work fine with externals except for loss of live TV trick-play features.

Thanks to all for valuable feedback. I had Comcast replace the SA 8300HD box. That did not fix the issues. I still continue to have the pixelation and freezing when external SATA drive is attached. The new one also has Western Digital internal drive. The Comcast technician had no clue about SA 8300HD boxes with Maxtor internal drive. All the problems go away if I remove the external SATA drive.

Right now I am stuck with Seagate SATA drive. I have given up on external drive for the time being. Maybe in future (when budget allows) I will try with Maxtor drive. Hopefully, Comcast will upgrade the SARA version in the fall.

Once again, thanks to all who responded. Your feedback and ideas are appreciated.

bkushner

06-27-06, 12:27 AM

free2day33611

06-27-06, 04:34 PM

So far, yes. No freezing and no skips. I've watched four programs (a couple Law and Order, CSI, and Without a Trace) and no problems. All were HD. I know all the shows watched were recorded on the external drive as those were the recent recordings. All functions (pause, fast forward, etc.) are working.

pepar

06-27-06, 05:00 PM

free2day33611

06-27-06, 05:04 PM

I know one of the recordings was recorded while watching another. I'll try recording two hi-def shows while watching a third.

free2day33611

06-27-06, 08:35 PM

vegggas

06-27-06, 09:06 PM

Went to Fry's today and notice a larger selection of eSATA drive equipment.
One thing that stood out was the "total" speed throughput on differing devices. These are not exact quotes, but the numbers are what was on the boxes.

Blah, blah blah Speed comparisons:
eSATA - eSATA = 3.0Gbps
SATA - SATA = 1.5Gbps
USB2 - USB2 = 480Mbps
1394 - 1394 = 400Mbps

Max throughput speed is determined by the SLOWEST common interface used.

Just thought I would point that out again as people are randomly buying drives and enclosures with varying interfaces, mostly standard SATA 1.5Gbps, when SA specified that eSATA to be used that supports 3.0Gbps.
To fully achive a true eSATA interface, speed and reliability, you need to use the eSATA output of the DVR, with an eSATA - eSATA cable (Max length of 2 meters) to a eSATA enclosure mated to a eSATA drive. Any variance in the interface may result in lowering your potential throughput ad could be causing problems.
Keep this in mind when buying equipment. Those that are buying the actual "Maxtor Quickview EXPANDER KIT" that's a complete eSATA solution, not just a bare Maxtor "quickview type of drive or other random drive, seem to have the least problems after installation.
I am now up to over 15 installs of the kit with virtually no problems from any of them. Some of them were installs AFTER the person attempted their own homebrewed solution, and had too many problems. I'm not saying that it's the best, or only solution, or that it's even guaranteed to work. I'm just stating that eSATA is what it was designed to be used, and that also appears to have the fewest problems.
YMMV
vegggas

pepar

06-27-06, 10:47 PM

I tried to record two hi-def programs and watch a third live hi-def program as pepar suggested. I could not watch a third "live" program while the other two recorded.

However, I could watch a "recorded" program while the two programs were recorded. The recorded program I could watch was from the external hard drive (assuming any recent recording went to the hard drive as the SA8300 was 80% full when the external hard drive was attached).

I could also watch an older recorded show form the SA8300 that was recorded prior to the attaching the external hard drive. I will test the recorded programs for freezes, drops, etc.
Bingo, you've got it. Recordings since adding the external drive go onto it. Record two while watching one previously recorded. Hi-def programing uses the highest bitrates meaning the most data being read/written from/to the hard drive. As time goes on and programming is deleted and new takes its place, drive fragmentation will build. It wil be interesting to see if the box passes the "record two, watch one" test after a year. If you use the DVR to build a collection of hi-def movies only recording what you intend to keep, then fragmentation will probably never become an issue. Still, it would be nice if they provided a defrag utility.

pepar

06-27-06, 11:46 PM

Blah, blah blah Speed comparisons:
eSATA - eSATA = 3.0Gbps
SATA - SATA = 1.5Gbps
USB2 - USB2 = 480Mbps
1394 - 1394 = 400Mbps

Max throughput speed is determined by the SLOWEST common interface used.

Just thought I would point that out again as people are randomly buying drives and enclosures with varying interfaces, mostly standard SATA 1.5Gbps, when SA specified that eSATA to be used that supports 3.0Gbps.
Isn't the 8300HD's host controller SATA 150?

vegggas

06-28-06, 03:20 AM

Oh yeah. It's a Marvell SA8040 bridge chip, probably maxed at 1.5Gb.
Did I mention I spent time reading specs at Fry's... :eek:
Anyway, the point was that mixing and matching drives, enclosures and cables could be some of the causes of problems, moreso than using a standard setup.

vegggas

Riverside_Guy

06-28-06, 08:30 AM

No such thing as a "eSATA drive." It only refers to the connector, which is electrically the same as a "standard" (sometimes called L) connector.

I seriously doubt an external drive would be required to be SATA II (i.e. max 3G transfer rate). Testing on this interface that I've seen says they can reach the burst rate, but over time, the drives aren't faster than SATA 150 ones. This may change a bit over time. Keep in mind the SATA interface was designed into the 8300 before any SATA II drives were available.

pepar

06-28-06, 09:56 AM

Anyway, the point was that mixing and matching drives, enclosures and cables could be some of the causes of problems, moreso than using a standard setup.
Standard setup being? I'm not taking issue with you, just your point. :)

SATA II is backward compatible with SATA. Enclosures usually only "get involved" if converting interface types, otherwise they simply hold and cool the drive. And the cable wouldn't seem to be likely to cause skipping, freezing, melting, etc. problems.

I'm in the process of building a computer for a friend. The mobo has nForce4 chipset and RAID and I bought four Maxtor drives to do RAID 0+1. Perfectly good motherboard and perfectly good drives, but now I find that there's an acknowledged incompatibility issue between Maxtor drives and nVRAID. (At least they're aware and are dealing with it.) I don't consider using Maxtor drives in this computer as "mixing and matching" as there are standards designed to allow using them, WD, Seagate or any of the variious drives available. This odd incompatibility issue aside, any SATA drive should be able to be used with any SATA enclosure connected to the 8300HD by any eSATA-to-whatever cable.

I'm using Maxtor Quickview drives on my two boxes with zero problems so far, but I believe I've read here where at least one person had problems with a Quickview Expander. And what's up with Discountech drives not working on SARA/Brighthouse when they work on SARA everywhere else? Folks are certainly on solid ground using Maxtor Quickview, but it is no absolute guarantee of success, nor is picking an SATA drive from column one, an SATA enclosure from column two and an SATA cable from column three a harbinger of failure. Something else yet to be discovered (by us at least) is at the root of these problems.

Riverside_Guy

06-28-06, 02:30 PM

"SATA II is backward compatible with SATA."

Sorta. Maxtor SATA II drives (just put a pair of 300G Maxtors into service) need to be jumpered to work with a SATA I interface (they ship with jumpers set for SATA II only).

BTW, putting one's own box together IS standard! The drive is the drive; the box supplies a connector for DC, plus some form of external connector (when they first started making external SATA drive cases, I don't think the eSATA connector was settled, so some of those early boxes had L connectors on them. There are NO electronics in those boxes (aside from the drive).

I'd also seriously doubt the 8300's controller is SATA II in any case.

pepar

06-28-06, 03:39 PM

I'd also seriously doubt the 8300's controller is SATA II in any case.
I think that's been settled; it's SATA 150. :)

pepar

06-28-06, 05:57 PM

"SATA II is backward compatible with SATA."

Sorta. Maxtor SATA II drives (just put a pair of 300G Maxtors into service) need to be jumpered to work with a SATA I interface (they ship with jumpers set for SATA II only).
I attached a Maxtor Quickview drive - SATA II drive - to each of my two 8300HD's w/o touching any jumpers. And they work just fine.

rumatt

06-28-06, 09:19 PM

davehancock

06-28-06, 10:31 PM

pepar

06-28-06, 10:48 PM

OK, I've searched for 10 minutes and came up empty, so I'll ask.....

I have a 400mb USB 2.0 drive. Does someone make an adapter that would allow me to go from USB to the SATA into the 8300? I don't see any for sale online.

I'd really rather not buy a new drive when I have this thing sitting here unused.
What's the drive inside the case? I don't think there are any USB drives. There are EIDE and SATA drives in enclosures with USB interfaces. If the drive inside is SATA, you're in business. If it's slower, davehancock's comments apply.

Riverside_Guy

06-29-06, 10:02 AM

I attached a Maxtor Quickview drive - SATA II drive - to each of my two 8300HD's w/o touching any jumpers. And they work just fine.

As those are marketed as being drives intended to attach to 8300, I'd expect they'd be jumpered to work with SATA 150. However, it'd kinda a moot point, they work for you and do what you want so that's great.

As for "USB drives" again, there's no such thing. As prepar said, they are IDE or SATA drives with an interface card. What you need to do is first figure out what the internal drive is, IDE or SATA. If IDE, I say forget it; while there are boards to turn an IDE drive into a SATA one, I doubt you'd get the goodness a real SATA drive has.

If it is SATA, consider getting a blank case that has NO conversion. I've seen a few single drive cases that you pop a SATA drive into that have no electronics of their own, they just route the data connection to the outside of the case.

FWIW, sometimes I really wonder; I wanted some fast external storage for my computer and went SATA. I got 2 very nice boxes that hold 2 drives each, with eSATA connectors. BUT, I REALLY, REALLY had to scratch my head because they used molex connectors to the DC brick! As such, they had to include a short cable for SATA DC to molex. HUH?

pepar

06-29-06, 10:22 AM

As those are marketed as being drives intended to attach to 8300, I'd expect they'd be jumpered to work with SATA 150. However, it'd kinda a moot point, they work for you and do what you want so that's great.
Moot points are the best kind! My understainding is that an SATA II drive will automatically scale back to SATA 150 to match the host without user intervention. Jumpering can force SATA 150 or SATA 300, but left on it's own, it will seek the highest data transfer rate.

aaronwt

06-29-06, 09:24 PM

Just go back a few posts: USB2 is 480Mbps, SATA is 1.5Gbps. eSATA is 3Gbps. Do you really want to put a 480Mbps drive in a 1.5-3.0Gbps application?

Don't complain when there is tons of breakup (due to low transfer rate).

The drive can't write or read that fast. That is just the burst rate. A USB 2.0 drive has no problem writing and reading several HD streams simultaneously. But I would agree that you wouldn't want to go through an adapter that goes from USB2 to SATA.

pepar

06-30-06, 12:25 AM

The drive can't write or read that fast. That is just the burst rate. A USB 2.0 drive has no problem writing and reading several HD streams simultaneously. But I would agree that you wouldn't want to go through an adapter that goes from USB2 to SATA.
Isn't the maximum data transfer experienced while recording two hi-def streams while watching a third, previously recorded, hi-def stream. Even if the programming was at the tuner's max 20Mbps, that would be writing 40Mbps while reading 20Mbps. If sek times are not abysmal, an ATA 133 or even a 100 should be able to handle it, right? Is there something I'm overlooking?

aaronwt

06-30-06, 07:58 AM

pepar

06-30-06, 10:26 AM

Even a 5400rpm drive can handle more than 3 HD streams at 20mbs. I tested it years ago when I used to record HD shows on my PC with 5400rpm drives. It could handle 5 streams before it started having problems. The newer drives are even faster.
It will be interesting to see, as file fragmentation accumulates, if playback streams are interrupted by the r/w head seeking the next fragment. That is where the capabilities of an "older" drive running at 5400RPM with a smaller buffer and having a slower full stroke seek time may become inadequate while a recently introduced 7200RPM, SATA II drive will keep on keepin' on. Still, a defrag utility would be nice.

Riverside_Guy

06-30-06, 11:25 AM

I had actually thought of "going" with the "incorrect jumper setting," but I got lazy. The dual drive box I got is actually quite small so once I got all the wires bent so as not to create too much stress, I left it alone. I did think they were supposed to auto-negotiate, but when I saw jumpers on the drive, I figured they put them there to be used!

There's no real reason why the OS can't deal with fragmentation, mine has been doing it for quite some time now. And the real pisser is that it's very much aimed at large files, we're talking multi gigabyte!

I guess the good thing about sitting here twiddling my thumbs waiting for TWC to give us 2.5.x is that drives may get a tad cheaper AND it may end up somewhere north of 2.5.0.66!

FWIW, the sweet spot for hard drives these days (lowest cost per megabyte) is 250-320G. I've seen some recent movement at 400G, but nothing to bring it in range of the 250-320G category.

pepar

06-30-06, 12:25 PM

There's no real reason why the OS can't deal with fragmentation, mine has been doing it for quite some time now. And the real pisser is that it's very much aimed at large files, we're talking multi gigabyte!
In our favor is the fact that the files are huge, and I only record hi-def programming. But as programming is deleted and recorded over time, fragmentation will develop. The OS doesn't care - or perhaps even know - where the files are. It is the r/w head that needs to scurry around to lay down or collect the data.

davehancock

06-30-06, 05:55 PM

Even a 5400rpm drive can handle more than 3 HD streams at 20mbs. I tested it years ago when I used to record HD shows on my PC with 5400rpm drives. It could handle 5 streams before it started having problems. The newer drives are even faster.

Absolutely correct: The SA documentation calls for "...7200 RPM (5400 RPM without Multi-Room); 133MB/sec". Hardly anyone has MR, so it's 5400. Almost everyone reporting success here has used 7200 RPM - so that continues to be the "norm".

SGinAZ

06-30-06, 11:12 PM

SGinAZ

06-30-06, 11:28 PM

DoubleDAZ

07-01-06, 07:11 AM

Sean,

Let me know how this goes. I am heading back to AZ today and will hit Fry's tomorrow AM if this setup works.

2weeks

07-01-06, 07:32 AM

Sounded like a great deal, so I grabbed it.

The hard drive sits in a tray and just "plugs in" directly to the circuit board inside the case by sliding backward.
I assume that powers the drive as well as the data connection? mine won't power up. No light on the front or spinning inside (Yes, I tried the switch). The power plugin looks like an S-video plug. It is really tight, and needed to be forced. Probably a good thing since you don't want it falling out.
I'll play with it tomorrow. I can test the drive in my PC, but I'm pretty sure it's the case.

SGinAZ

07-01-06, 10:59 AM

Sean,

Let me know how this goes. I am heading back to AZ today and will hit Fry's tomorrow AM if this setup works.

Unfortunately, it's going to be a few days before I can test it out. I've got to go pick up the HD DVR and Cox needs to remove their signal filter from the side of my house. I only had limited basic and used an over-the-air antenna/receiver for HD. I had ReplayTV but the box died so I'm finally switching to Cox for everything.

It couldn't hurt to pick them up and return them if it doesn't work.

I assume that powers the drive as well as the data connection? mine won't power up. No light on the front or spinning inside (Yes, I tried the switch). The power plugin looks like an S-video plug. It is really tight, and needed to be forced. Probably a good thing since you don't want it falling out.
I'll play with it tomorrow. I can test the drive in my PC, but I'm pretty sure it's the case.

The power and data connection are both part of the circuit board inside the "tray". Mine powered right up and the light on the front illuminated. If you had to "force" the power connector, pull it out and check the pins. Make sure you didn't accidently bend one.

Sean..

davehancock

07-01-06, 11:34 AM

BTW, here is a link to a cool Maxtor white paper comparing 5400 and 7200 RPM drives for DVR applications:

http://www.maxtor.com/_files/maxtor/en_us/documentation/white_papers_technical/hdd_considerations_white_paper.pdf

It's from July/2003 but it concludes that 5400 drives are fine and actually a better answer due to heat concerns...

I note that this white paper did not even mention High Definition data rates - it talked about 5400 RPM being able to handle 5 STANDARD television streams. So, now we are dealing with 3 HIGH DEFINITION streams (2 record, one play), which suggests that 5400 RPM drives are marginal.

It was a good note about cooling considerations. Those implementing 7200 RPM drives should use an enclosure with a fan.

aaronwt

07-02-06, 07:26 AM

For a cooler running drive. That is if you can find a 5400RPM drive. 5 years ago when I first started recording HD the 5400RPM drives were much cheaper than the 7200rpm drives. I used two 80GB drives in a removable enclosure to shuttle my shows from it's recording location to my HD set.
Then when the larger drives came out I bought several 250GB 5400rpm drives for $300 each and that was a very good price. The prices are so low today it just amazes me. I have over 7 Terabytes of drives lying around now that basically worth very little. Although I still have several Terabytes of HD shows from 2001 to 2004. After I pick a few out to burn to disc in the HD DVD formats I can play on my HD DVD player I will just delete the rest of my content and try to sell the drives on ebay for almost nothing or give them away.

broadwayblue

07-02-06, 02:22 PM

Hi all,

Today's Fry's ad in Phoenix has the Maxtor 6L300S0 300gb hard drive on sale for $79 no rebate. This is in kit form (which has a model of L01S300 but it's the noted drive in the box).

In addition, they have the following Adaptec external enclosure on sale for $29 after a $20 rebate:

http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/products/consstor/enclosures/ACS-300/

This enclosure has got to be the nicest I've seen. It includes both eSATA and USB 2.0 connectivity and both types of cables are included (eSATA to eSATA & USB). The hard drive sits in a tray and just "plugs in" directly to the circuit board inside the case by sliding backward. It's got a power switch and is nicely made. There are some crappy cases out there but this one is sweet!

I just upgraded to HD/digital cable and will report back on how things go. Regardless, it's a damn nice price for a 300gb drive and great case. :)

Sean..

Is this the same enclosure?

http://shop1.outpost.com/product/4452846?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

Also, would you happen to know the dimensions? And last question, will this enclosure work with IDE drives? I have a bunch of them lying around.

Crap, it looks like the ACS-300 does not accept IDE drives...and it doesn't appear to be on sale online. The ACS-100 does support them but it doesn't have eSata output. That one is on sale online.

DoubleDAZ

07-02-06, 03:33 PM

Unfortunately, it's going to be a few days before I can test it out.That's okay, I decided to go a different route as I really don't need the extra 8300 storage just yet and I believe there will be more DVR options sooner rather than later. I did take advantage of the $80 drives though and got a standard one (instead of the SATA) along with a link device to connect to my router. Now I'll be able to get all the photos, music, etc., off my notebook and that's a good thing. :)

SGinAZ

07-02-06, 08:30 PM

Is this the same enclosure?

http://shop1.outpost.com/product/4452846?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

Also, would you happen to know the dimensions? And last question, will this enclosure work with IDE drives? I have a bunch of them lying around.

Crap, it looks like the ACS-300 does not accept IDE drives...and it doesn't appear to be on sale online. The ACS-100 does support them but it doesn't have eSata output. That one is on sale online.

Looks like you answered your own questions re the ACS-300/100. Dimensions are about 8.25 X 4.75 X 1.25".

2weeks

07-03-06, 05:06 AM

phillyaj

07-03-06, 09:04 AM

Ok...So I finally decided to play with the external SATA connector. (My wife keeps asking WHY???"). Anyway, I got a great deal on a Seagate 300G SATA drive, and a VANTEC enclosure (with eSATA connector and cable). I hooked it up last week and it was working Great!!!. So last night we had a series of thunderstorms and the power went out twice. When the 8300 came back, it was telling me that the the external drive was not functioning. So, I powered everything down, powered on the External Drive, and Powered on the 8300. Still Nothing. I checked the drive by hooking it up to my Laptop via USB and formatting it. ( I didn't really have anything on there I cared about...). Anyone see this before?

I'll go home tonight, and try to reconnect & reformat the drive and keep my fingers crossed. (I'm sure my wife is still going to ask WHY??) :rolleyes:

Thanks
Andy

p.s. Comcast Cable (Southern NJ..Formerly Garden State Cable).
SARA

SGinAZ

07-03-06, 11:06 AM

Ok. I got a new case & I'm up & running. Went from 66% to 22% - Nice.
You have to be real careful to line up the pins from the cord to the power on the case.
The case does not have a fan, and is pretty hot.

Excellent! So we have one Phoenix Cox datapoint for success! :D

As far as heat is concerned, I'm actually considering drilling vent holes in the case to allow heat to escape. I'm wondering how much the sound level will increase, though...

Still have to wait a couple more days. My DVR won't even authorize until the signal filter is removed. I'd remove it myself but don't think the Cox tech would be amused... :)

drartalcj

07-04-06, 06:29 PM

Is it possible to connect the external SATA port on a Sci-Atl 8300D to a computer's hard drive for DVD burning (don't have HBO, etc., so it would be for old Matlock episodes, etc.)

Thanks.

jruhnke

07-04-06, 06:40 PM

No. The data on the exernal HDD is encrypted and can only work with the STB where the disk was originally formatted. (I.e., can't carry the drive to your friend's house and plug it in to his 8300HD to watch the last episode of Lost you recorded, either.)

drartalcj

07-04-06, 08:52 PM

I guess my only option, then, is to use the "copy to VHS" function, make a tape, then burn a DVD from the tape (a Panasonic VHS/DVR I have in another room has this dubbing function). Lots of definition and quality loss, I would suspect.

jruhnke

07-04-06, 10:10 PM

Many people have had decent results using the S-Video input to their DVD recorders. This requires you to use the normal playback mode (vs. "Copy to VCR"), which may or may not be acceptable to you.

Is there some reason your Panny can't record straight to DVD without going through the intermediate VHS step?

DEIFan

07-04-06, 10:13 PM

Or...just burn directly from the DVR to the DVD-R, just because it says "Copy to VCR," it's not literal.

drartalcj

07-05-06, 12:53 AM

SGinAZ

07-05-06, 02:00 AM

My intention was to burn DVD-R, but I thought that putting a 2nd hard drive (SATA) and trying to burn a DVD from that would not work because of the proprietary nature of the 8300D. So, if I connected the 8300D directly to the Panasonic DVR-DVD/VHS and burned a DVD-R there, would I be able to view the DVD on the Panasonic (I assume so) and on other DVD players, too (not so sure of this)? Does the encryption not apply in this case?

drartalcj

As DEIFan was saying, just connect your Panasonic burner to the "Copy to VCR" outputs of the 8300. The 8300 doesn't care (or know) what's connected. I'm assuming that the Panasonic has RCA inputs...

drartalcj

07-05-06, 08:54 AM

Gotcha. Thanks for all your help.

phillyaj

07-05-06, 09:05 AM

UPDATE>>> After reformatting and reinstalling and rebooting...All is well. back to 11% used. But my wife is still asking WHY.?? :D

So far no problems seen, although every time I see a digital artifact, I check to see if the drive has activity. Seems to be working like a charm.

To Summarize: Comcast Cable, Southern NJ, SARA
Seagate, 320 G Drive (ST3320620AS)
External eSata/USB case with eSata Cable (Vantec NexStar 3 NST-360SU-BK External 3.5in Hard Drive Enclosure Retail )

Ok...So I finally decided to play with the external SATA connector. (My wife keeps asking WHY???"). Anyway, I got a great deal on a Seagate 300G SATA drive, and a VANTEC enclosure (with eSATA connector and cable). I hooked it up last week and it was working Great!!!. So last night we had a series of thunderstorms and the power went out twice. When the 8300 came back, it was telling me that the the external drive was not functioning. So, I powered everything down, powered on the External Drive, and Powered on the 8300. Still Nothing. I checked the drive by hooking it up to my Laptop via USB and formatting it. ( I didn't really have anything on there I cared about...). Anyone see this before?

I'll go home tonight, and try to reconnect & reformat the drive and keep my fingers crossed. (I'm sure my wife is still going to ask WHY??) :rolleyes:

Thanks
Andy

p.s. Comcast Cable (Southern NJ..Formerly Garden State Cable).
SARA

Riverside_Guy

07-05-06, 11:35 AM

davehancock

07-05-06, 12:22 PM

I'd go from the 8300's S-Video out port plus coax or optical to your DVD burner and use normal play mode like jruhnke says. I have been sorta, kinda, half thinking about this.

However, if you're sending a HD program, I'm not so sure what you'd actually end up with. I'd be concerned about maybe getting a widescreen picture that has pillars on each side when played back from the DVD. I think during one experiment I did, when you send a 16:9 image through S-Video, it arrives as a letter boxed image in 4:3 (i.e. back bars on all 4 sides).

Actually, (this is true for SARA, not so sure about Passport) you can record a HD recording from the HD onto a DVD-R anamorphicaly (sp?)(widescreen) by changing 8300 set-up to SD. Then hit "#" key on remote to get squeeze mode (need to be looking at S-Video out). Set 16x9 mode on DVD recorder and you are all set. I do this all the time. Quaity is not HD, but is closer to regular widescreen DVD quality than you can get with any other method.

Riverside_Guy

07-06-06, 10:09 AM

Sounds like it might work... I think you had turned me onto the "trick" of setting the SD side to stretch mode, while the TV was in 4:3 mode to get black, not gray pillars.

I had the output from my AVR via S-Video because that's all it can do... but I pulled the cable because it was an unnecessary pain when switching inputs as there's no direct access. I only needed it for about 10 minutes because I needed the OSM of my AVR for setting up my levels (center channels is positioning very differently than what I had with my CRT).

I'm ancient Passport (1.8.112).

SGinAZ

07-06-06, 10:04 PM

Finally got everything turned on and hooked up. The 8300 recognized the external drive immediately and happily formatted it. I went into the diagnostic menus and it shows the internal drive as 137gb available and the external at 279gb. Now to start recording shows and testing everything out. :)

rumatt

07-07-06, 12:38 AM

Holy mother of god, it took me 3 hours to read this whole thread. The amount of useful information could have been summarized in about two paragraphs.

I already have an EIDE WD 250 GB drive that I'd like to try out. I want to buy a combo enlosure, in case I need to buy an SATA drive next. So far I've found two:

1) Coolmax $59.00 (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1495717&CatId=1204)

2) Plumax $34.00 (http://www.dealsonic.com/plpmsi3cosea.html)

Any thoughts on these? I'm thinking of going with #2 because it's cheaper and has an internal fan.

I have an 8300 with Cablevision. It has a WD internal drive (WD1600BB-56GuCO) and SARA 1.88.15.3

Riverside_Guy

07-07-06, 09:18 AM

It would be interesting... SATA is a "better" spec than ATA/IDE, so your I/O is going to be at ATA speed, so you're slightly "out of spec." Sometimes "out of spec" works just fine, sometimes it can be flaky, sometimes it can not work at all. But the investment in the case won't be lost because it can easily be used with the old computer.

One caution, be careful about the cable. I have generally found that if they don't say it has a eSATA connector, it's the "L" connector (internal SATA connections are sometimes called "L" or "standard"). The 8300 has a eSATA connector. If my suspicion is correct, you'll need to invest in a L to eSATA cable.

BTW, the L comes from the fact that internal SATA connectors have a notch or extra leg so they look kinda L-shaped.

rumatt

07-07-06, 11:05 AM

SATA is a "better" spec than ATA/IDE, so your I/O is going to be at ATA speed, so you're slightly "out of spec."

Yeah. If I were buying new I'd get SATA for sure. But three things make me want to give it a shot.

1) Multiple reports in this thread of it working fine

2) My 8300 is using the same crappy WD EIDE drive internally! (well, a smaller version of the same drive). So unless my enclosure is slowing things down, I don't see how it can be a problem.

3) I already have the damn thing, so other than needing to buy an "non-avsforums-approved" combo enclosure, it's not costing me anything to try.

pepar

07-08-06, 12:32 AM

3) I already have the damn thing, so other than needing to buy an "non-avsforums-approved" combo enclosure, it's not costing me anything to try.
That should be #1, #2 and #3; it's FREE. :)

2weeks

07-08-06, 02:11 AM

Holy mother of god, it took me 3 hours to read this whole thread. The amount of useful information could have been summarized in about two paragraphs.
Did you buy the damn case yet? Get the one with the fan, cause it runs hot. Don't post back until you've have it, install it & fully test it. That will save us a few posts :rolleyes:

DoubleDAZ

07-08-06, 09:22 AM

Holy mother of god, it took me 3 hours to read this whole thread. The amount of useful information could have been summarized in about two paragraphs.That's because all those who have gone before you have had to deal with software/hardware combo's that didn't work or were flaky at best at the time and they helpd ach other through the process. Now that things have matured, noobies to SATA are able to pretty much buy whatever they find and plug 'n' play as it were. Fry's here recently had a 300G drive on sale for $80 and an enclosure for $30 after mail-in rebate.

In the past, you had to research your own drives, then research enclosures, and then find you own cables. And even then, the same stuff didn't always work on different cableco's and sometimes not even on the same cableco. Now working packages are much more widely available.

Then, too, until you actually buy whatever you settle on, you don't really know just how much of the info in this thread is useful or not. :)

SGinAZ

07-08-06, 11:50 AM

Get the one with the fan, cause it runs hot.

You're right about that! Ran it for a day and the case was definitely hot. Decided to drill holes in sides of the case (short side) to allow air to be drawn in from the bottom and heat to escape out the top. I figured what the heck, it's only a $30 case. :) It's still warm but not nearly as much. A case with a fan is definitely a better way to go me thinks. Maybe I'll search for another option. We'll see.

2weeks

07-08-06, 07:31 PM

I've been running the Adaptec case with the 300GB Maxtor drive for a week. It's only done a couple flaky things, then last night the DVR said "fail" then rebooted itself. That was a first, and has to be the external drive. If Sean doesn't report any problems, then I'll consider drilling holes in the case.

SGinAZ

07-09-06, 12:38 AM

Update. I recorded and watched Deadwood and Entourage tonight. No glitches. The case is definitely cooler than without the holes. It is merely warm now whereas before I would definitely say it was hot. I think I may drill a few more holes in the sides. The drive isn't any louder than before. Let's swiss cheese this puppy! :D

One other thing I did was to unplug the connector for the LED on the front. That blue light was bright. I don't need any visual indicator that it is on anyway...

pepar

07-09-06, 02:26 PM

One other thing I did was to unplug the connector for the LED on the front. That blue light was bright. I don't need any visual indicator that it is on anyway...
I've got a match pack propped in front of mine . . . :D

SGinAZ

07-09-06, 02:50 PM

I've got a match pack propped in front of mine . . . :D

My old VCR in the bedroom had a clock that was so bright that I always had to put a videotape in front of it. If I didn't you could see everything in the room clearly at night. :)

SGinAZ

07-09-06, 06:09 PM

This is gonna sound silly and is pretty much a "forest for the trees" situation.

The design of the Adaptec case is that the hard drive sits in a plastic tray that has the front of the case attached on one end and the electronics attached/built-in to the other. You remove a trim piece with two screws off the back and the entire tray of electronics/drive/front slides out of a metal sleeve that is the main part of the case. I simply left the drive open to the air by not using the metal sleeve. I reattached the rear trim piece as it screws directly to the tray. No exterior case means no heat buildup. :) In order to still use the included stand I put a couple of pieces of velcro (the fuzzy half) into the stand to tighten it up a little. Works like a charm. Check out the photos.

I think it looks fine without the sleeve and since I don't plan on moving it all the time that part of the case is unnecessary. Now we'll just have to see how everything performs.

SGinAZ

07-09-06, 06:09 PM

Here is an image of the sleeve with my original ventilation holes drilled into it.

pepar

07-10-06, 08:39 AM

Here is an image of the sleeve with my original ventilation holes drilled into it.
Reminds me of hanging a picture for my wife before studfinders . . . :)

skelm

07-10-06, 09:07 AM

With the exact models (links would be good). I am guessing that the HD of choice would be the Maxtor Quickview 300

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1487964&Sku=TSD-300M16& (LINK)
or possible the 400GB MAXLINE PRO 500-SATA 7200

400 (http://www.thenerds.net/index.php?page=productpage&affid=2&pn=3H400F0)
would that one work?

What enclosure and cable have tested well?

Thanks in advance

jruhnke

07-10-06, 10:12 AM

The problem is, how do you define "best"? I don't know that anyone's reported that a setup didn't work because of enclosure/cable problems. There are some drive/enclosure combos that run cooler than others, but there's been no testing of these various configs to quantify how much "better" a cooler setup is over a hot one. And I think there's still no consensus that any particular drive/enclosure/cable has a 100% chance of working without problem on your STB.

In my case, a 300GB Seagate and a Kingwin enclosure (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7153706&&#post7153706) were "best"--they've worked without problems, and it don't get better than that. (I reserve the right to change my answer if the drive conks out tomorrow, though!)

skelm

07-10-06, 10:15 AM

pepar

07-10-06, 10:23 AM

I really think that the problems members have been experiencing are not, barring outright cable/connector failures, due to hardware. The requirements are fairly simple: SATA and 5400rpm or 7200rpm. I'd always go for the 7200rpm and as big a cache as possible. Beyond that, personally, I use Maxtor Quickview drives. They are (somehow) "tuned" for streaming video and my thinking is "why take chances?"

And one more thing, I would never consider a passively cooled enclosure.

skelm

07-10-06, 12:39 PM

This looks failry interesting - all inclusive

quickview (http://www.weaknees.com/maxtor_qvx.php)

With the exact models (links would be good). I am guessing that the HD of choice would be the Maxtor Quickview 300

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1487964&Sku=TSD-300M16& (LINK)
or possible the 400GB MAXLINE PRO 500-SATA 7200

400 (http://www.thenerds.net/index.php?page=productpage&affid=2&pn=3H400F0)
would that one work?

What enclosure and cable have tested well?

Thanks in advance

RaveD

07-10-06, 03:30 PM

You're right about that! Ran it for a day and the case was definitely hot. Decided to drill holes in sides of the case (short side) to allow air to be drawn in from the bottom and heat to escape out the top. I figured what the heck, it's only a $30 case. :) It's still warm but not nearly as much. A case with a fan is definitely a better way to go me thinks. Maybe I'll search for another option. We'll see.
If the case doesn't have a fan it is designed to get very hot. By putting holes in it you defeat part of its heat sink ability and actually make the drive itself hotter. (Don't you think the manufacturer would have thought of this if it made it better?)

pepar

07-10-06, 04:11 PM

davehancock

07-10-06, 04:12 PM

The manufacturer of the case is not the one that picks up the tab if the life of the enclosed hard drive is shortened because it wasn't properly cooled.

DoubleDAZ

07-10-06, 04:28 PM

A couple of things:

"Very hot" is a subjective term. Th 8300 runs very hot to some people, but seems only warm to me. IMHO, if you can't keep your hand on it, it's too hot. Otherwise, it's probably functuioning as designed.

If those few holes significantly reduce the heatsink properties, then it seems to me it is a very poor design to begin with. Plus, if leaving the case off altogether allows the drive itself to run "cool", then all the case really does is provide connections, noise abatement, and physical protection.

My $.03 worth.

davehancock

07-10-06, 06:55 PM

SGinAZ

07-10-06, 07:13 PM

If the case doesn't have a fan it is designed to get very hot. By putting holes in it you defeat part of its heat sink ability and actually make the drive itself hotter. (Don't you think the manufacturer would have thought of this if it made it better?)

If I remove the case and the drive then runs cool(er) I don't care about the heatsink properties of the case. I think that's is overrated by the case companies that don't include fans in their enclosures anyway. If you think about it, drives in a PC don't use heatsinks either. Yes there is a fan to draw air in, but thats just because they're in an enclosure (the PC case).

Plus, if leaving the case off altogether allows the drive itself to run "cool", then all the case really does is provide connections, noise abatement, and physical protection.

Exactly. That's all I really care about anyway. The drive isn't noisy without the case and I don't plan on using it as a portable unit since it has to stay attached to the 8300. It works for me. Others might not find it acceptable to them..

Oh, and one more thing. I'm actually toying with buying a sheet of metal "mesh" that I can form into a "replacement" case. (Think of some of those wire wastebaskets). Why? Cause I think it might look cool and I enjoy tinkering. :D

pepar

07-10-06, 07:18 PM

pepar

07-10-06, 07:26 PM

One of members of our local (Rochester NY) HD forum (RochesterHDTV) reports on buying a complete 8300 external drive set-up from Western Digital (he says that SA recommended that). This is the first that I've seen of this drive:

http://www.westerndigital.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=229

He says that it works fine.
Hate to be pepar-one-note, but no fan on a hard drive that runs 24/7/365 is absolute madness! I'd back off that if the case had big fins and LOTS of surface area, but small and quiet seem to go hand in hand with these things. I see fanless "designs" as compromises of the mission for aesthetic, both visual and audible, reasons.

DoubleDAZ

07-10-06, 07:53 PM

That may be, but at least that unit sits upright with vents on the side(s) to dissipate a lot more heat.

SGinAZ

07-10-06, 08:33 PM

pepar

07-10-06, 10:46 PM

More food for thought... According to Maxtor specs, my particular drive has environmental temperature limits of 32' to 140' F while operating. I'm not thinking the average home is going to be anywhere near 140' F (I keep mine at 80'). :) Soooo.... I wonder what the temp is inside an enclosure with or without fans (or holes in the case. :) )... We are kind of focusing on the temperature of the drive itself but drives by their nature heat up. It's just a matter of how much heat it can release to it surrounding environment based upon ambient temperatures.

Sean... NOT a science guy. :D
You're on to something, Sean. Sort of making my point, Dave likes the way the drive enclosure looks. But vents don't dissipate heat; they allow air to pass. If it's heated air that comes out, then heat is removed. But w/o a fan, it is solely dependent on convection, or maybe a breeze in the air. However, as I look at the pictures, I see nothing that tells me they are vents and not just some eye-catching ribbed design.

We really need data. Anybody know where to get temperature probes or thermocouples small enough to place inside external enclosures?

DoubleDAZ

07-10-06, 11:35 PM

Well, the Quick Install Guide refers to the side panels as "vent" panels. Also, alternate views in the Guide show even more, smaller vents on the opposite side, the underside in a horizontal position. I could be wrong, but this tells me the panels are not just an eye-catching ribbed design. :)

pepar

07-11-06, 07:53 AM

Riverside_Guy

07-11-06, 10:37 AM

pepar

07-11-06, 11:32 AM

Truth be told, I am far more curious about the "won't work on a pc, configured for streaming video" that WD drive page says. Exactly what disk format is being used? I could be wrong, but I doubt "configured for streaming video" is hardware based (well, there IS a hardware issue, streaming video very much does have a minimum I/O spec, so very slow drives won't work).

$200 for a 250G set-up isn't a good value. Then again, I don't have the Passport upgrade that allows this, so I sit and wait (and watch drives get cheaper as well).
I think it *is* hardware-based, or at least firmware based. This is the first mention I've seen of a drive said to be optimized for streaming video that also says it's not suitable for a computer. Previously, with the Quickview products, "we" speculated it optimized for streaming video referred to turning off error correction. With this additional piece of info, I am even more inclined to believe that.

vegggas

07-11-06, 01:21 PM

I think it *is* hardware-based, or at least firmware based. This is the first mention I've seen of a drive said to be optimized for streaming video that also says it's not suitable for a computer. Previously, with the Quickview products, "we" speculated it optimized for streaming video referred to turning off error correction. With this additional piece of info, I am even more inclined to believe that.
The Maxtor Quickview Expander kit (again, NOT a Quickview drive - 2 different products) is to be used and optimized for the 8300 DVR and NOT PC applcations. This is the reason I use them exclusively on my installs, and why I believe I've never had any problems after over a year of multiple installs.

vegggas

davehancock

07-11-06, 02:12 PM

pepar

07-11-06, 03:33 PM

The Maxtor Quickview Expander kit (again, NOT a Quickview drive - 2 different products) is to be used and optimized for the 8300 DVR and NOT PC applcations. This is the reason I use them exclusively on my installs, and why I believe I've never had any problems after over a year of multiple installs.

vegggas
FWIW, I am using both a Maxtor Quickview 500 500GB drive and a Maxtor Quickview 250GB drive successfully - so far - in an enclosure from Firewire Direct (http://www.firewiredirect.com/product/360/). Neither of the drives are the "Expander Kit." The second drive (6L250SO), while called "Quickview" returns what appears to be a run-of-the-line hard drive from their site search engine, but is shown in their Quickview brochure (http://www.maxtor.com/_files/maxtor/en_us/documentation/data_sheets/quickview_data_sheet.pdf) as a Quickview product with the same features as the Quickview 500 and Quickview Expander Kit.

RaveD

07-11-06, 05:01 PM

How good a design can it be if it gets anywhere near "very hot?"
I agree, but that's what you get in a $30 case.

But if the case is very hot, it means that it is successfully transferring heat from the drive. So when you punch holes in the case, it could make the case cooler, but the drive inside hotter.

In any event, I'm in total agreeement with you: if the drive runs 24/7, then it should have a fan. Why take chances?

pepar

07-11-06, 05:33 PM

I believe that pepar was referring to a post by Riverside_Guy who, in turn, was commenting to an earlier post that I made referring to a Western Digital drive which is being marketed for the 8300.
Yes, thanks, I was referring to Riverside_Guy's comment "but I doubt "configured for streaming video" is hardware based" and saying that I thought it *was* a hardware/firmware thing.

pepar

07-11-06, 05:36 PM

I agree, but that's what you get in a $30 case.

But if the case is very hot, it means that it is successfully transferring heat from the drive. So when you punch holes in the case, it could make the case cooler, but the drive inside hotter.

In any event, I'm in total agreeement with you: if the drive runs 24/7, then it should have a fan. Why take chances?
I guess I should stop as you are in agreement :), but to me the case being hot says the drive inside is hotter as no substance has 100% heat transferance.

romanesq

07-11-06, 08:06 PM

My drive is not holding the amount of information it did. I must have had 36 programs all in HD. Then the drive was reading pretty high at 95%. After I started deleting items, space wasn't being created. Then recordings that were done, stopped and the drive showed 100%.

So even with deletions and down to 20 it still shows 90%. How do you reformat the external drive? I can't see any option to do this even with multiple reboots, it just goes back to the where it was at but there's a lot of space that "disappeared" and isn't available.

davehancock

07-11-06, 08:16 PM

romanesq

07-11-06, 08:33 PM

pepar

07-11-06, 11:36 PM

Same result. There's the internal drive 180 plus the external 400GB I think so that's way too much space for 20 programs and 31 hours of HD programs.

Seems like almost half the capability is missing.
Dunno what's up with the drfive, but you could attach it to a PC and format it with the goal being to wipe out the existing formatting, having it look "new" to the STB when you reattach it and giving you an opportunity to re-format it there.. Unless the drive has failed. But then if it has, Windoze would probably indicate it.

DoubleDAZ

07-11-06, 11:40 PM

I have never tried this (from the first post), so use at your own risk:
Last Resort. If for some reason you can't get the STB to do what you want and you've rebooted it by unplugging it, etc., this is a "last resort" item - say just before taking the unit back, you can try reformatting the HDD.

The SA8000HD (and presummably the SA8300HD) has a fairly simple procedure to erase the drive (start clean). Note that this process will erase all scheduled programming and will cause the unit to reload all programming data from your cable provider. On the plus side, it will repair any fragmenting problems. (57U-HDTVoice.com)
Press and hold PAUSE until Mail led is lit. Press PAGE down or (-),
and then press LIST three times. Turn box off. When turned back on,
formatting will begin.

romanesq

07-12-06, 06:06 AM

DoubleDaz,

This procedure is for the internal drive to the STB, right?
I'm only looking to regain space on the external drive in reformatting.

Brighton Line

07-12-06, 07:57 AM

When I was having problems, the "Press and hold PAUSE until Mail led is lit. Press PAGE down or (-), " only reformated the internal drive my external drive did not reformat and after powering on the 8300 it just reported the external drive, did not say it was new or offer to format it.
If you know someone else with an 8300 you can plug it into theirs so it will reformat the external drive, twice since it will do it again when you plug it back into yours.

Riverside_Guy

07-12-06, 09:14 AM

I only brought up the "optimized for streaming video" because I believe it to be 100% marketing and 0% technical. Drives that are NOT "optimized for streaming video" are used all the time for uncompressed DV playback in Final Cut Pro editing systems; getting to that point was more of a software issue than any lack on the hardware side (i.e.the general use hardware was ready before the software was).

I believe the issue really is one of a piss poor implementation of the disk driver function in the OS on the STB. Indeed, that IS an assumption on my part based on the large amount of folks reporting troubles and issues. However, it IS true I see a lot of "complaints" about things not working correctly in my computer's OS that I generally never see, but that's a lot more complicated a situation as it's a general use OS (not from m$ btw).

DoubleDAZ

07-12-06, 09:30 AM

DoubleDaz,

This procedure is for the internal drive to the STB, right?
I'm only looking to regain space on the external drive in reformatting.At the time 57U offered this suggestion, SATA drives weren't available. I thought maybe it would do both drives, but I guess not (based on Bright Line's post). Then, too, it helps to put it out there in case it jogs someone's memory on a way to force a reformat of the external drive, vegggas? My last thought is that reformatting the internal drive with the external disconnected, doing a "hard" reboot, and then "hot" reconnecting the external might bring things back to normal. It's all a WAG on my part, but it seems like there should be a way to make this work without having to connect to another 8300 or a PC.

pepar

07-12-06, 09:37 AM

I only brought up the "optimized for streaming video" because I believe it to be 100% marketing and 0% technical. Drives that are NOT "optimized for streaming video" are used all the time for uncompressed DV playback in Final Cut Pro editing systems; getting to that point was more of a software issue than any lack on the hardware side (i.e.the general use hardware was ready before the software was).
Perhaps, and no one's more cynical than me - maybe you? ;) - but that's a computer with an O/S and apps that all work with error correction. So even when the video is "streaming", the drive is still re-reading bytes or whatever the heck it does when an error is encountered and the application knows to "wait" when that happens. The 8300HD isn't waitin' for nuthin'. An error and a re-read (or again whatever the heck goes on) and it loses sync and pixelates, tiles, melts, etc, until it can pick up the cadence. Pardon my non-technical tecnical explanation, but I don't think your correct on it being 100% marketing/0% technical.

romanesq

07-12-06, 11:40 AM

Using another 8300 to format the drive is a good idea. I'll check with a neighbor.

pepar

07-12-06, 01:44 PM

Using another 8300 to format the drive is a good idea. I'll check with a neighbor.
It's a darn good idea!

SDchargers

07-12-06, 07:27 PM

Has anyone had any success with the new 750GB hard drives? I've searched and search and can't find any answers. Is there a capacity limit for the 8300HD DVRs.

DoubleDAZ

07-12-06, 09:01 PM

rabident

07-13-06, 02:18 AM

Perhaps, and no one's more cynical than me - maybe you? ;) - but that's a computer with an O/S and apps that all work with error correction. So even when the video is "streaming", the drive is still re-reading bytes or whatever the heck it does when an error is encountered and the application knows to "wait" when that happens. The 8300HD isn't waitin' for nuthin'. An error and a re-read (or again whatever the heck goes on) and it loses sync and pixelates, tiles, melts, etc, until it can pick up the cadence. Pardon my non-technical tecnical explanation, but I don't think your correct on it being 100% marketing/0% technical.

That might explain part of the overall sketchy instability the SA boxes are known for. I always thought it was lousy code (I'm sure that's part of it). Error detection and correction would be an all or nothing option on the drive. If it happens MPEG-2 content, no biggie, but if something more significant comes back corrupted like an allocation table or file header... then no error detection & correction is a problem.

Is it worth paying a premium for the manufacturer to turn off error correction? If it works, I guess. It's also possible the manufactures tune the caching algorithms differently for AV vs single user vs multi user too.

Still with the speed of modern hard drives, you would think a relatively low bandwidth stream - even if it's multiple streams, could still be handled in real time without having to resort to tricked out premium drives... unless it is all just marketing BS.

From Weaknees FAQ:

Thermal Control: On board sensors monitor temperature and adjust characteristics as necessary to keep the temperature optimal.
Durability: These drives run at 7200 RPM - more than fast enough for every PVR (providing about three times the necessary peak throughput) but not fast enough to wear out sooner.
Acoustic Management: Maxtor QuickView drives are specially tuned to run as quietly as possible.
A/V Streaming: QuickView drives have been optimized and tuned to provide consistent data to the PVR processor. Standard desktop drives can hang while retrying drive reads - QuickView drives know to move ahead and provide more data to keep video smooth.
Error Recovery: Desktop drives retry on errors to make sure that your Excel spreadsheet is exactly right - it's imperative. But when watching video, if one block of data is bad, you may not even notice a dark spot on one frame for 1/30th of a second. So these drives are tuned to move past errors faster, putting the stream of data as top priority. Where desktop drives often cause stutters, these drives run smooth.

If that 1st item is referring to tcals, that's old school and I thought technology had moved on to the point where it didn't mattered anymore.

Nice website pepar.

LJG

07-13-06, 08:41 AM

FWIW, I am using both a Maxtor Quickview 500 500GB drive and a Maxtor Quickview 250GB drive successfully - so far - in an enclosure from Firewire Direct (http://www.firewiredirect.com/product/360/). Neither of the drives are the "Expander Kit." The second drive (6L250SO), while called "Quickview" returns what appears to be a run-of-the-line hard drive from their site search engine, but is shown in their Quickview brochure (http://www.maxtor.com/_files/maxtor/en_us/documentation/data_sheets/quickview_data_sheet.pdf) as a Quickview product with the same features as the Quickview 500 and Quickview Expander Kit.

So you are using both drives together for 750 GB?

pepar

07-13-06, 08:42 AM

A/V Streaming: QuickView drives have been optimized and tuned to provide consistent data to the PVR processor. Standard desktop drives can hang while retrying drive reads - QuickView drives know to move ahead and provide more data to keep video smooth.
Yeah, dat's what I was getting at . . .

Nice website pepar.
Thanks.

pepar

07-13-06, 08:45 AM

So you are using both drives together for 750 GB?
No, sorry, I didn't make that clear. I have two 8300HDs to which I've added one external drive each.

LJG

07-13-06, 08:50 AM

Gotcha, so the largest successfull drive to date is 500 GB?

pepar

07-13-06, 12:11 PM

Gotcha, so the largest successfull drive to date is 500 GB?
That is my recollection. I'm using one that size, but it's nowhere near filled. The speculation on this thread is that the 8300HD's memory(?) will limit the number of files (programs) that can be stored and accessed.

But in thinking about that further now as I post, the internal drive will hold a LOT more files in SD than a 500GB will hold of HD. That makes me inclined to speculate the memory/file limit, if there is one, won't apply to hi-def programming, or at least not at current and foreseeable single drive capacities.

Resident experts, what sayeth ye? :)

davehancock

07-13-06, 02:16 PM

pepar,

Time will tell. Unfortunately, what one person finds on one cable system (and OS) will not necessarily apply to another (system). Veggas has previously pointed out that some of the memory used is determined by additional applications that the local cable system my run (such as Called ID for Digital Phones).

SDchargers

07-13-06, 05:08 PM

You couldn't have searched too hard :) because that subject was beat to death when 500G drives first came out. The thought then was that 300G drives were the upper limit, but there have been improvements in drive technology along the way. Folks now have working 400G and 500G setups, but someone will have to be the guinea pig here because I don't believe anyone has ever posted anything that suggests a specific limit at all. There are some thoughts that the 8300 memory will not be able to handle a large index of recordings, but I don't think that theory has been proved either.

I guess my question should have been "to this day has anyone tried to connect a 750GB drive with success?" I did search this already with no results. I'm thinking about going to Fry's in a few months and pick this up in preparation for next season's shows. I'm confident it will work but was just curious if it's already been done.

DoubleDAZ

07-13-06, 07:45 PM

I don't see why it won't work either, but be advised that some folks had initial problems with drives over 300G. That could have been more a result of the software version they were using at the time vs the actual size of the HDD.

FWIW, the problem with searching only for 750G is that you miss any possible relevant info, such as the 400G-500G discussion. Based onyour last post though, I guess that didn't interest you as you were only trying to find out if anyone had tried yet. :) If you do take the plunge, be sure to let us know the result.

skelm

07-14-06, 10:52 PM

This looks failry interesting - all inclusive

quickview (http://www.weaknees.com/maxtor_qvx.php)

got it - plugged it in - had 10 meg free now 250 :). Ill post later on how well it works

rumatt

07-15-06, 11:11 AM

I already have an EIDE WD 250 GB drive that I'd like to try out. I want to buy a combo enlosure, in case I need to buy an SATA drive next. So far I've found two:

1) Coolmax $59.00 (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1495717&CatId=1204)

2) Plumax $34.00 (http://www.dealsonic.com/plpmsi3cosea.html)

Any thoughts on these? I'm thinking of going with #2 because it's cheaper and has an internal fan.

I have an 8300 with Cablevision. It has a WD internal drive (WD1600BB-56GuCO) and SARA 1.88.15.3

UPDATE: I bought #2 above, and man did I get hosed! I do NOT recommend this enclosure.

First, it does NOT support IDE --> SATA! With an SATA drive, both the USB and SATA cables are active. But with an IDE drive, only the USB cable is active, so it is useless to me with my IDE drive.

Second, it has a fan, but it doesn't have any holes in the case! WTF!? This thing is a tightly sealed oven. No wait, it has a fan, so its a CONVECTION oven! Who would be stupid enough to put a fan in a sealed box? It's so dumb it's almost funny. I just run it open and it's OK.

I'm going to see if I can return it. If not, I guess I'll buy an SATA drive.

pepar

07-15-06, 11:28 AM

UPDATE: I bought #2 above, and man did I get hosed! I do NOT recommend this enclosure.

First, it does NOT support IDE --> SATA! With an SATA drive, both the USB and SATA cables are active. But with an IDE drive, only the USB cable is active, so it is useless to me with my IDE drive.

Second, it has a fan, but it doesn't have any holes in the case! WTF!? This thing is a tightly sealed oven. No wait, it has a fan, so its a CONVECTION oven! Who would be stupid enough to put a fan in a sealed box? It's so dumb it's almost funny. I just run it open and it's OK.

I'm going to see if I can return it. If not, I guess I'll buy an SATA drive.
FWIW, I think I see conflicting information in its spec:

# SATA Technology, JMICRON Semiconductor.
#
# Pure SATA transfer Rate: 1.5 Gbit/Sec.

and then:

# Supports up to UDMA/133

SATA (I) is "150" and this supports only up to 133. ???

rumatt

07-15-06, 11:31 AM

FWIW, I think I see conflicting information in its spec:

Yeah, who knows. Maybe that means 133 when using IDE.

I emailed coolmax to find out if their enclosure supports IDE --> SATA. If so, I'll try that one next.

pepar

07-15-06, 11:35 AM

Yeah, who knows. Maybe that means 133 when using IDE.

I emailed coolmax to find out if their enclosure supports IDE --> SATA. If so, I'll try that one next.
FWIW, here's my favorite external enclosure (http://www.firewiredirect.com/product/360/). Check my link and go to the last two pages.

Riverside_Guy

07-15-06, 01:05 PM

pepar

07-15-06, 02:44 PM

Ha, I have three enclosures like that one pepar. Slightly different design, feet exactly like my G5 box. I have one that has a FireWire board (put 2 of the drives from an old computer in there). The other 2 are black, have a fan, and were 80 bucks each... there are NO electronics in them, you just route the SATA connection to the 2 external eSATA ports.

One bad design point that bugs me; they are made for SATA drives, SATA drives have a very unMOLEX power connector. The box has a freaking MOLEX DC connector! So they have to include 2 cables to go from SATA power connector to the boxes MOLEX. Totally unnecessary and it adds a bunch of wire to the rear of the case.

BTW, these are designed to hold 2 drives.
Yes, they are designed for two drives, but they are, IMO, the best external SATA enclosures I have found, and I've googled and googled and drilled through hundreds and hundreds of hits. They are fairly neutral style-wise and therefore blend in nearly anywhere, especially with the flexibility of vertical or horizontal orientation. And - very important in my mind - they have a fan though I've ordered a third case with which to experiment with quieter fans. With only one drive, I believe I can drop back on the CFM a bit and on the noise a lot and still git 'er done.

BTW, my google search phrase? "G5 external SATA" :)

DCIFRTHS

07-15-06, 05:57 PM

bkushner

07-16-06, 01:50 AM

RussB

07-16-06, 07:48 AM

Just noticed that Comcast South Jersey (Cherry HIll) just sent Sara 188XXXX to my 8300.

I was on the 187.23 software just the other day.

Can't find any changes with the new version, am I missing something?

brianYes you are missing something. Click here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4682052&&#post4682052) to go to the first post in the "SA 8300 HD Tips & Tricks" thread. At the bottom of the post, is the "New Features in software version 1.88.x.x." The most obvious new feature is the fourth speed for fast forward and rewind. The most requested new feature is being able to watch a currently recording program from the beginning and not being kicked out when the recording ends. Enjoy!

Riverside_Guy

07-16-06, 10:23 AM

Okay. I know this is a bit off topic, but maybe someone can help.

I am looking for an internal SATA II locking cable. I have also Googled and Yahooed until my finger s bled, but I keep finding either junk or the SATA I cables. If anyone knows where I can get these cables, I'd appreciate the help.

Thanks!

A few months back (4 or so) I also did some extensive searching regarding SATA cabling; I was implementing external storage via SATA. Never did I come across any indications that the connector had a locking "feature." And for use internally, there's not much point in a "locking" connector.

I essentially found there were 2 major "styles" of connectors, internal (sometime called L connectors) and external (eSATA). And I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as SATA I or SATA II cables.

pepar

07-16-06, 01:06 PM

A few months back (4 or so) I also did some extensive searching regarding SATA cabling . . .

. . . I essentially found there were 2 major "styles" of connectors, internal (sometime called L connectors) and external (eSATA). And I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as SATA I or SATA II cables.
I don't think the cables changed when transfer speed went from "150" to "300." The SATA-II spec introduced the eSATA connector, but no other cabling changes that I'm aware of.

drivie

07-16-06, 01:37 PM

Okay. I know this is a bit off topic, but maybe someone can help.

I am looking for an internal SATA II locking cable. I have also Googled and Yahooed until my finger s bled, but I keep finding either junk or the SATA I cables. If anyone knows where I can get these cables, I'd appreciate the help.

Thanks!

Are you looking for something like this? (http://www.westerndigital.com/en/products/accessories.asp?ProdID=74) This is the only internal SATA cable I've ever seen that claims to connect securely to the drive but the site mentions that it is only for use with Western Digital SATA drives.

Drivie

DCIFRTHS

07-17-06, 12:43 AM

A few months back (4 or so) I also did some extensive searching regarding SATA cabling; I was implementing external storage via SATA. Never did I come across any indications that the connector had a locking "feature." And for use internally, there's not much point in a "locking" connector.

I essentially found there were 2 major "styles" of connectors, internal (sometime called L connectors) and external (eSATA). And I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as SATA I or SATA II cables.

This (http://pages.prodigy.net/dcifrths/SATAIICON/lockcon.jpg) is what the locking connector looks like. It adds some assurance that the connector is properly seated. It is part of the SATA II spec, but I *think* it is optional.

Riverside_Guy

07-17-06, 08:47 AM

This (http://pages.prodigy.net/dcifrths/SATAIICON/lockcon.gif) is what the locking connector looks like. It adds some assurance that the connector is properly seated. It is part of the SATA II spec, but I *think* it is optional.

The one on the right looks exactly like an eSATA connector (I have 4 of them 2 feet from me), definitely not internal. Internal connectors don't have the "wings" you see in the right connector.

pepar

07-17-06, 10:27 AM

The one on the right looks exactly like an eSATA connector (I have 4 of them 2 feet from me), definitely not internal. Internal connectors don't have the "wings" you see in the right connector.
The "left" connector and the "right" connector are two sides of the same connector, but you're right about it being eSATA as it is NOT an "L" connector. Strange, though, as the cable itself looks more like the ones I've seen for internal use.

DCIFRTHS

07-18-06, 04:33 AM

The one on the right looks exactly like an eSATA connector (I have 4 of them 2 feet from me), definitely not internal. Internal connectors don't have the "wings" you see in the right connector.

Okay the link in my post above is fixed, but here (http://pages.prodigy.net/dcifrths/SATAIICON/lockcon.jpg) it is again. Sorry for the confusion.

Anyway, I think I found a decent source. Anyone have any experience with StarTech cables?

tcat

07-20-06, 04:24 PM

Is this a drive that might work?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148140

I see several posts with Seagate 300gb drives that work. Was going to try this with the Vantec box.

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=370891&prodlist=yahoo

Seems like $145 for 320gb is a great deal.

bkushner

07-21-06, 01:56 AM

Just noticed that Comcast South Jersey (Cherry HIll) just sent Sara 188XXXX to my 8300.

I was on the 187.23 software just the other day.

Can't find any changes with the new version, am I missing something?

brian

I'm having a lot of problems with this new version of the software, anyone else?

My external drive all of a sudden will start making a CLUNKING sound even when the unit is off and I can't access programs on it until I reboot it and the 8300. The other day I was going through the guide looking for content to record and all of a sudden a big FAIL appears in the channel window, had to reboot.

One other annoying thing, I have the unit set to come on at one of my HD channels, since the upgrade when it comes on it is in 480I, I have to tune to another hd channel to get it out of the 480i mode.

Help?

Brian

rwestley

07-21-06, 06:33 AM

hdtvbill

07-21-06, 07:36 AM

Go to the newegg web site, search on "SATA locking" and then select one of the cables that show up in the search output.

Follow the "view pic" link. This appears to be the same cable end reported above, and appears to be an internal SATA cable + locking (metal tab).

I tried to include the web link in this post, but being a nu-be, I don't have 5 posts yet, and had to remove it.

hdtvbill

07-21-06, 07:52 AM

I see several posts with Seagate 300gb drives that work. Was going to try this with the Vantec box.

I've used the Vantec case with a Seagate 400G SATA and gotten it to work with Passport 2.5.048. It was touch-and-go at first. Finally got it work after formatting the drive on a PC with NTFS (Vantec has USB2 & eSATA ports), and several sessions with power up sequencing between the 8300HD and the Vantec.

The final attempt was after a warm reset on the 8300, the Vantec up and running, and then hot-plugging the cable into the 8300 (finally saw the "do you want to format" box).

Now have 560G storage - awesome! Power blinks/outages can cause temporary loss of the extra storage (have to remove eSATA cable and re-insert), so I have the 8300 and Vantec plugged into a UPS. I'm still not sure if the NTFS formatting was necessary or not.

pepar

07-21-06, 08:45 AM

The final attempt was after a warm reset on the 8300, the Vantec up and running, and then hot-plugging the cable into the 8300 (finally saw the "do you want to format" box).

Now have 560G storage - awesome! Power blinks/outages can cause temporary loss of the extra storage (have to remove eSATA cable and re-insert), so I have the 8300 and Vantec plugged into a UPS. I'm still not sure if the NTFS formatting was necessary or not.
Congratulations! If you visit the TWC Passport tread (whether you're TWC or not) you will find some discussion of adding external drives to Passport boxes. The last two pages of my site linked in my sig deal with it as well.

DoubleDAZ

07-21-06, 09:29 AM

had to reboot.Did you just pull the power cord and plug it back in (soft reboot) or did you press/hold the Power button while plugging the powe rcord back in (hard reboot)?

bkushner

07-21-06, 09:39 AM

Did you just pull the power cord and plug it back in (soft reboot) or did you press/hold the Power button while plugging the powe rcord back in (hard reboot)?

First few times power cord. Last couple I did the power cord and held the start button when plugging back in.

davehancock

07-21-06, 11:23 AM

I just noticed that Monoprice now sells a Type I to type II cable for about $4.00. It seems that this is another great buy from them.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10226&cs_id=1022602&p_id=2882&seq=1&format=2&style=

When I clicked on the link I got a eSATA (Type I) to eSATA (Type I) cable. There does not appear to be a SATA to eSATA cable in their catalog.

There is a lot of confusion around the various types here.

The original connector is often called:
SATA = SATA 1 (that's a one) = SATA Type "L" (that's what the slot looks like on the end)

While initially the newer connector (needed by the 8300) was called SATA II (meaning version 2), but it has now been known as:
SATA II = SATA 2 = SATA Type "I" (what the slot looks like on the end).

pepar

07-21-06, 12:04 PM

When I clicked on the link I got a eSATA (Type I) to eSATA (Type I) cable. There does not appear to be a SATA to eSATA cable in their catalog.

There is a lot of confusion around the various types here.

The original connector is often called:
SATA = SATA 1 (that's a one) = SATA Type "L" (that's what the slot looks like on the end)

While initially the newer connector (needed by the 8300) was called SATA II (meaning version 2), but it has now been known as:
SATA II = SATA 2 = SATA Type "I" (what the slot looks like on the end).
Before there was a "II", it was called simply "Serial ATA150." I think it still is. It is the spec that is called "SATA II." The connector - the original connector - is still used and still called an "SATA connector." The SATA II spec introduces the eSATA connector and cable. Confusion? You bet. And the Serial ATA organization (http://www.serialata.org/) is devoting some of its splash page in dispelling some of it. I don't think the eSATA connector was ever called an SATA II connector, at least not by the people who spec'd and made it.

davehancock

07-21-06, 12:44 PM

I don't think the eSATA connector was ever called an SATA II connector, at least not by the people who spec'd and made it.
Maybe not by the people who spec'd it - but at the start on THIS thread it was:
SATA I to SATA II External Cable-, and initially that was what we bought. Eventually the connector became known as "eSATA", and finally some people started to refer to them as Types "L" and "I" to reflect the physical shape.

SATA's web site is not much help either. Part of the issue is that they are talking about an electrical spec (150/300Gbps) and really don't attempt to clarify the connector confusion. The site does refer to the "former SATA II committee". Before the "eSATA" name was coined, all people had to refer to was the "new connector defined by the SATA II committee". Hence, "SATA II connector."

pepar

07-21-06, 12:59 PM

Maybe not by the people who spec'd it - but at the start on THIS thread it was:
, and initially that was what we bought. Eventually the connector became known as "eSATA", and finally some people started to refer to them as Types "L" and "I" to reflect the physical shape.

SATA's web site is not much help either. Part of the issue is that they are talking about an electrical spec (150/300Gbps) and really don't attempt to clarify the connector confusion.
Perhaps the confusion has not risen to a level that has come to their attention. Perhaps it is only us who are confused. Misnomers usually happen when people give things names without regard for the names given by those who designed them. That can be retailers who hang a fancy marketing name on something, or consumers who begin talking about something before they have the facts. I'd be more inclined to blame retailers. The Cruz Systems link from the first post is now dead, but Cruz is using "iSATA" and "Serial ATA 1.0" interchangeable, though I see no mention of "Serial ATA 1.0" in the SATA org's specs as a connector or cable name.

DiscounTech

07-21-06, 03:27 PM

Originially SATA was designed as an internal interface ONLY. My understanding is that the type I external connector (L shaped) was an unratified standard, that was produced as a stop-gap solution by enclosure manufacturers untill an external standard was determined. Early on the new format was called SATA II / Type II connector, but ultimately became known as External SATA, A.K.A. "eSATA" which has an "I" shaped connector .

Here's some info about eSATA:

"Here is the external single lane connector. The external cable connector is a shielded version of the connector specificed in SATA 1.0a with these basic differences:

• The External connector has no “L” shaped key, and the guide features are vertically offset and reduced in size. This prevents the use of unshielded internal cables in external applications.

• To prevent ESD damage, the insertion depth is increased from 5mm to 6.6mm and the contacts are mounted further back in both the receptacle and plug.

• To provide EMI protection and meet FCC and CE emission requirements, the cable has an extra layer of shielding, and the connectors have metal contact points.

• There are springs as retention features built into the connector shield on both the top and bottom surfaces.

The external connector and cable are designed for over five thousand insertions and removals while the internal connector is only specified to withstand fifty. There are two compliance points for the Single Lane External SATA Data Interface, one at each shielded external connector. As with other Serial ATA specifications, interconnect between the IC/Phy and the connectors at the mating interface are outside the scope of definition and are considered part of the delivered Phy solution. Implementations that have additional connections between the Phy/IC and the shielded external connector must provide such interconnects as part of the engineered solution. For an implementation such as shown in the figure below, the compliance points remain at the shielded external connectors.

The typical cable length is 2 meters (6 feet); long enough to reach from a floor mounted PC to a drive placed on the desktop. The compliance is defined in the SATA II: Electrical Specification, as the Gen1m and Gen2m specifications for 1.5 Gb/s and 3.0 Gb/s respectively.

With the formation of the SATA-IO organization and the completion of the e-SATA specification, a new logo is now being introduced to identify eSATA hosts and drives that are SATA spec compliant products.

Only products which are compliant to the Serial ATA specification can use the eSATA logo, and companies which use the logo must be members of the SATA-IO organization."

Jesse.

john.oreilly

07-21-06, 03:47 PM

I currently have a DVI to HDMI cable running from the Adelphia SA 3240HD set top box to my Toshiba HD TV. In addition, I have a S-Video cable running from the S-Video out connection of the set top box to the S-Video in for the Toshiba HD TV. I have several options on the TV set re: what I want to view. They include: Video 1, Video 2, Video 3, Colorstream HD-1, Colorstream HD-2 and HDMI as video inputs. To watch Cable Channels 2 thru 177, I use Video 2 with Theater Wide 1 picture size for 4:3 format programs--which virtually all channels mentioned above are broadcast. The Video 2 combined with the Theater Wide 1 picture size, gives me a full screen picture (no side bars nor top/bottom black strips). Using this set up and calling up any channel from 2 thru 177 is when I get the message:

COPY PROTECTION

The DVI/HDMI Output is Blocked

* Press EXIT To Cancel

When the 'cancel button' on the Adelphia remote control (tuned to cable) is pressed, the picture for the chosen cable channel (NON-HD) appears in the picture size chosen. However, the same message reappears for any channel I tune to that is non-HD (2 thru 177) When I wish to watch HDTV, I change the video input to HDMI, and go to HD stations that are accessible. If, I choose to go back to a lower channel (2 thru 177), in the HDMI mode, I get a tv picture that is a 4:3 picture--and no message appears. Under HDMI, no picture sizes are available, so the non-HD picture is displayed in a 4:3 ratio and cannot be modified. All HD Adelphia Cable stations appear in the screen size as provided by the HD channnel--other than the ABC, CBS, and NBC network HD stations (HD 702, 704, and 711)-- the picture is full screen in width and depth. Network channels are full screen IF they are broadcasting in HD.

DVD appears thru S-Video (separate S-Video cable) on Video 1.

My point here is: if I am getting the cable channels 2 thru 177 thru the S-Video, why should I get the "DVI/HDMI Output is blocked" message? HDCP should not come into play, if I am getting my cable thru the S-Video cable for channels 2 thru 177. These channels are analog or digital, not HD.

Finally, there is a section in the Toshiba HD-TV manual re: 'Connecting an HDMI or DVI device'. It reads, "The HDMI input on your TV receives digital audio and uncompressed digital video from an HDMI source device, or uncompressed digital video from a. DVI (Digital Visual Interface) source device.

This input is designed to accept HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) program material in digital form from EIA/CEA A-861/861B-compliant consumer electronic devices (such as a set-top box or DVD player with HDMI or DVI output).--Bolded portions provided by me. It would seem the TV set should be compatible with Adelphia's HD cable box.

It is my understanding that I can receive the BEST HD picture by using the DVI/HDMI cable connection. It is my understanding that to get a HDMI to HDMI connection, I must get a DVI (?) recorder box. While that would provide the ideal connection, I would have to pay for the recorder box service charge--not just the box rental. I do not wish to choose that option. I am not enthused with the idea of using the component cables such as those provided with the HD box. Is there not a way to remove or cancel the Copy Protection....... notice so that it does not need to be entered with each non-HD channel change? Should the Copy Protection message be received at all? Is there something wrong from Adelphia's end or from my connection scheme?

Can anyone help me out here?