One thread for Niro, Mainstage, Zvox, Bose 3-2-1--one box sound? [Text View]

dc_pilgrim

03-16-05, 11:58 PM

Here are the systems I have seen mentioned on threads, there may be others:

- KEF KIT100 Instant Theatre -(2.1)- MSRP 1499 - http://www.kit100.com/
CNET Review (http://reviews.cnet.com/KEF_KIT100_Instant_Theatre/4505-6740_7-30826596-2.html?tag=glance)

-Yamaha YSP Series -(1.0 get a sub for 1.1)- MSRP (?) 1299 - 799 http://www.yamaha.com/yec/
Long Audioholics Review (http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/YamahaYSP-1DigitalSoundProjector1.php)
Long Thread in Speakers Section (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=497766&perpage=20&highlight=ysp&pagenumber=1)
CNET Review - YSP-1 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=497766&perpage=20&highlight=ysp&pagenumber=1)
CNET Review YSP-800 (http://ecoustics-cnet.com.com/Yamaha_Digital_Sound_Projector_YSP_800_five_channel_speaker/4505-6467_7-31624252.html?tag=sub)
the YSP-3000 - http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=556966&VNM=WORKING
the YSP-4000 - http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=556968&CTID=5001100&VNM=WORKING

-Bose 3-2-1 -(2.1?)- MSRP $1299 - www.bose.com

-Klipsch CS-700 - (2.1 w/wireless sub) MSRP 1300? (Thanks OJGSarge)
http://www.klipsch.com/news-center/press-releases/details/klipsch-cs-700-dvd-entertainment-system-snags-2007-ces-innovations-award.aspx

-Denon S101/S301 -(2.1)- MSRP 999 & 1499 Link (http://blog.denon.com/s301_101/archives/2005/07/press_release.html) (Thanks Kipa)
Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6024858)
Audioholocs Review (http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/DenonS101p1.php)

-Sony DAV-X1 -(2.1)- MSRP 999 Link (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=DAVX1)
Thread - a little combative (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5867850)
-Polk Surroundbar -(1.0 + sub+ receiver)- MSRP 949
Link (http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/products/surroundbar/)

-Cambridge SoundWorks SurroundWorks 200 -(1.1)- MSRP 999
Product Link (http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/store/category.cgi?category=ht_virtht&item=c1srw200)
Review (http://www.ecoustics.com/dt/2943)

-M&K MP 4512 -(1.1+receiver)- MSRP $650 - http://www.mksound.com/mp4512_pf.htm
CNET Review (http://reviews.cnet.com/M_K_MP_4512/4505-6467_7-31273689.html?tag=also)

-Niro 400/600/1.1Pro II/Reference/Two6.1/Two6.1-C -(1.1)- MSRP $539 to $1999 - http://www.niro1.com/en/
CNET Review (http://reviews.cnet.com/Niro_400_indigo/4505-7868_7-31218242.html)
Review (600) (http://www.pbcentral.com/columns/hildreth_kravitz/niro600.shtml)
new 2007 Niro lineup Model #'s are: 420/620/800/1000 priced at $695/995/1195/1595 respectively.

Altec Lansing PT7031/8051 MSRP $600-ish - (thanks gdseeker)
User's review (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12626726#post12626726)
PT7031 (http://www.alteclansing.com/index.php?file=north_product_detail&iproduct_id=95)
PT8051 (http://www.alteclansing.com/index.php?file=north_product_detail&iproduct_id=96)

Philips HTS8100 -(1.0) MSRP ??? (Thanks Regularguy)
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/ces-2007/ces-2007-philips-one-piece-dvd-home-theater-system-213478.php

-Philips HTS6600 -(2.1) MSRP 599 (Thanks Regularguy)
IHT/NY Times article (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/29/business/ptbasics30.php)
Philips Soundbar HTS8100 - Thread 1 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10843104#post10843104) Thread 2 - Review by Davyo (thanks) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=865094)

Panasonic SC-PTX7 - (2.1 + 80 GB drive) MSRP of $799.95
Audioholics Article (http://www.audioholics.com/news/trade-show-coverage/2007-consumer-electronics-show-ces/panasonic-sc-ptx7-jukebox-theater-audio-system)

-Samsung HT-X200 -(2.1)- MSRP $500 (?) HDMI Out/upconverting DVD
http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=mp3audiovideo&type=hometheater&subtype=hometheatersystems&model_cd=HT-X200/XAA
A Thread on the old model (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7670444)

-JVC EX-A1 -(2.1)- MSRP ? $450 - www.jvc.com (Thanks Hoppy)
CNET Review (http://reviews.cnet.com/JVC_EX_A1/4505-6721_7-30998914.html?tag=also)

-Sharp SD-SP10 -(1.1)- MSRP $399 (thanks Chauncey)
Dolby Virtual Speaker Device w/"Audistry" options (whatever those are)
http://www.sharpusa.com/products/ModelLanding/0,1058,1738,00.html
CNET Review (http://reviews.cnet.com/Sharp_SD_SP10/4505-6740_7-31648369-2.html?tag=nav)

-Binaura B102AC -(1.1)- MSRP 399? http://www.binaura.com/products/products.htm
A thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=527018)

-Sherwood VR600, VR670, VR 700 -(2.1)- MSRP 249 - 599
http://www.sherwoodusa.com/am_cat_hts.html

-Soundmatters Mainstage/Mainstage HD/Fullstage -(1.0/1.1)- MSRP $199 - $599 - www.soundmatters.com
Review (http://reviews.cnet.com/Soundmatters_MAINstage_charcoal/4505-7869_7-30421911.html)
Review (http://www.atruereview.com/soundmatters/index.php)
Review (http://www.pbcentral.com/columns/hildreth_kravitz/mainstage.shtml)
AVS Member Pinkoos Review (http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4143077#post4143077)

-ZVox 315 -(1.0 or +sub)- MSRP $199 - http://www.zvoxaudio.com/
CNET Review (http://reviews.cnet.com/Zvox_315/4505-7869_7-31124840.html)

In the alternative, you could get a receiver that supports Dolby Virtual Speaker (DVS), and add a pair of speakers + a sub of your choice.

Receivers w/ DVS

-Kenwood VRS-7200
-Harmon Kardon AVRs - almost their entire line of surround receivers after a certain vintage, I think the x35 series (not the stereo receivers though)
-Denon seen some mention that some denon receivers have DVS. No further details.

Updates
*EDIT 8/13/05- I ordered the Binaura. The price was right (got it on sale).
EDIT 1/11/06 - added Polk Surroundbar. Needs a receiver + sub, like the M&K.
EDIT 2/6/06 - added cnet review of ysp-800.
EDIT 4/2/06 - Added somethings on the option to go with a receiver and separate speakers/sub(s). I'd strongly consider going this way, as you get a lot more inputs and the upgrade path is better. (unless you want/need 1.1 not 2.1, like me)
EDIT 5/17/06 - added the Samsung.
EDIT 7/18/06 - having problems with the Binaura. Faulty electronics.
EDIT 7/28/06 - received the YSP-800. Will review later in this thread once its been tried. Added Sharp product.
EDIT 12/12/06 - - added the Philips HTS devices. Thanks Regularguy. Added another link for the Sharp
EDIT 2/7/07 - Added the Klipsch
EDIT 6/26/07 - Added Panasonic, newer Philips, Altec Lansing (sorry no link) - - I am not really following these devices anymore - - feel free to PM me if you want me to add something to the list, or I check in occasionally and may do a few updates here and there.

Hoppy

03-17-05, 12:48 AM

I add this to dc_pilgrim's great and useful post (props to you)--

http://reviews.cnet.com/4505-6740_7-30998914.html?tag=also

This is a JVC mini stereo that can be used for movies. Probably not very "surround," but interesting that it's in the same cnet roundup as the others.

As it happens, I already own the predecessor of this mini system, the JVC7000 which used to be called an "executive" stereo. THe interesting thing is that the speakers, if they are indeed the same ones, and they look like spitting images, are really quite wonderful sounding, a little too loose in the bass but full in the middle with great highs. After I saw them on here I plugged my JVC 7000 into my DVD and watched "Garden State"--sounded pretty good to me.

I should add that I now notice that this JVC is a DVD player as well (mine is an audio system, CD only, plus tuner, etc.). Don't have a clue as the quality of the DVD. Says it's progressive scan etc. Component outs.

Hopps

Hoppy

03-17-05, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by dc_pilgrim
Hope this helps. I plan to buy the Mainstage HD when it is released (April 05), and will post a review when I get it.

dcp--

Can you give us some indication on why you settled on the Mainstage from this set of alternatives? I like the way it looks, but have no clue as to sound. The Niro has a good return policy but is maybe twice as expensive.

Only the Mainstage and ZVox really are easy on the budget. I don't want to pay $1300 if I don't have to.

dc_pilgrim

03-17-05, 07:42 AM

Happy to elaborate. Its strictly a budget / requirements perspective. I am planning to outfit a den (14 x 20 x 14) with high ceilings. I am going to get the flagship Sony direct view tv (KD-34XBR960) which is taking up most of my budget. So I am really only looking at Soundmatters and the Zvox, plus a budget sub. We may do something more elaborate with the audio when we finish the basement in the next year or two.

The den adjoins the kitchen and is our primary living and entertainment space. Thus, I want the machine to be able to play music - either streamed in via an apple airport express (or similar) or maybe via HTPC.

So, my concern with the Zvox is it has only two mini-jack inputs, and it would use one to connect to the sub (can't argue with the price though). This would mean I'd have to run the music through the tv which I don't really want to do. The Mainstage (&HD) has four inputs (composite audio, minijack, toslink and digital coax), and a dedicated port for the sub.

I read the Cnet review which indicated the Zvox sounds better than the original mainstage. But it seemed to me that at least a part of the rational was that the Zvox was the more powerful unit. Presumably the Mainstage HD which is basically, in theory going to be a louder Mainstage will answer that concern. Also, on the original Mainstage faq, it only recomends the machine for rooms that are about 1800 cubic sq ft. My ceilings are high (albeit sloping), so I was hoping that the more powerful HD version might address that concern.

There were a few nitpicks in the original Mainstage reviews which probably would have bothered me - the blinking standby light, and the inabilty to tell if it is in "surround" or stereo mode. I understand these are being addressed in the next version. I'll let you know when I get one. I started looking at this in December, it was then expected for the 1st of the year. It was delayed to "early spring". I sent a message to complain, was told they delayed to slightly tweak the features and the remote, and it would be "worth the wait". I was given a best guess of no later than April 15th. In a subsequent PR e-mail I was given hope that it might be April 1st. We'll see. I upped the budget for the HD. If it doesn't sound good, I may return it and start to look at the low end Niro's.

But this is my rationale and the parameters I am working in. Hope it helps. If budget were no object, I'd get that yamaha.

dc_pilgrim

03-17-05, 07:16 PM

Added a couple of links yamaha links to my summary post. Will add Hopps JVC find to the list as well later.

After writing all that out, I am giving myself some second thoughts. My concern is tied to inputs. The tv I want will take two (one optical and one analog - bad design IMHO but ever tech has trade offs). I would want to be able hook up a few other devices -- ps2; a streaming music device; dvd player; maybe a dvr. Not all of these necessarily need an optical input, and I could get a switch or splitter. But it has me thinking about devices with more optical inputs. Maybe the Zvox has it right after all.

Hoppy

03-17-05, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by dc_pilgrim
Added a couple of links yamaha links to my summary post. Will add Hopps JVC find to the list as well later.

After writing all that out, I am giving myself some second thoughts. My concern is tied to inputs. The tv I want will take two (one optical and one analog - bad design IMHO but ever tech has trade offs). I would want to be able hook up a few other devices -- ps2; a streaming music device; dvd player; maybe a dvr. Not all of these necessarily need an optical input, and I could get a switch or splitter. But it has me thinking about devices with more optical inputs. Maybe the Zvox has it right after all.

Just to be clear on the Zvox--I am not carrying the torch for this unit, I just wondered what your thinking was. For the present I'm using the TV (34XBR800 that I PM'd you about) or the JVC system that seems to work pretty well with my new Infocus 4805 projector.

All best--

Hopps

dc_pilgrim

03-18-05, 12:31 AM

Well the Zvox only uses a mini-jack (presumably stereo) input. Which means it doesn't bother with anything optical. So a simple splitter would cure some of the input deficiencies, and I could just plug all my toys into the tv (except maybe music) and have it pass the audio to the Zvox. The Zvox would do whatever it does - - which might not be as "tricky" as some of the other systems (sound algorythms, dolby, etc) - but reportedly still sounds pretty okay.

Sometimes simpler is better.

mrrippey

03-21-05, 04:18 PM

I think I may check out the ZVOX. It is simple and hopefully sound good. I am going to connect cable box (CableVision HD / NJ) and DVD player (something progressive and decent) to the TV (Syntax 32") and then send the signal to the ZVOX. Simple and I guess should work well and will allow me to use the other input for the sub (out of TV to Input 1 / Sub for Input 2)

I guess I will need a mini to RCA to connect a sub? Does anyone know?

Rippey

dc_pilgrim

03-21-05, 06:50 PM

Good deal. Let us know how it works out.

Based on their website -

Two connecting cords supplied: 1) Mini-jack stereo to mini-jack stereo (for use portable CD players, clock radios, PCs...anything with a headphone jack). 2) Mini-jack stereo to twin RCA jacks

- - I have often heard that people connect their subs with a single RCA. Maybe the mini-jack cord would work - - otherwise you might have a trip to radio shack. I'd ask their customer service.

joe1347

04-26-05, 09:28 PM

Just listened to the ZVOX at Best Buy. Possibly the source material or the store configuration was at fault - but I thought that the ZVOX sounded a little weak - especially for the bass. Also, I fooled around with the Phase Cue and didn't notice much effect.

I'm currently thinking that the Onkyo 770 HTIB is the better bet for about $200 more. Just have to deal with the additional clutter that I avoided with the ZVOX!

Any thoughts?

dc_pilgrim

04-26-05, 10:42 PM

Everything I have read indicates these devices are almost all inferior to any system where you run the wires and place the speakers. No arguement there.

In terms of the Zvox - you can use it with a sub if you wish. True for many of these devices.

Where was the BB that you were able to demo it? I heard it was available in certain regions at BB but never heard where specifically. I'd love to hear one sometime.

dc_pilgrim

08-10-05, 09:34 AM

I have updated the list above (post #3) to include the Cambridge Surroundworks which I just noticed. Also, in the past few months I had added the Binura and the Sony products as well. There are a ton of these products coming out for people with high WAF / space considerations.

Standard disclaimer - none will be better than a wired system with 5+ speakers.

Kipa

08-10-05, 11:34 AM

I have been in the market for a "high end" HTIB for a couple months now. I've almost pulled the trigger a couple times, but it seems that everytime I get ready, I hear about a new, better unit being produced. Right now, the top of my list is the KEF KIT100. Fantastic sound - a big improvement in stereo playback over my current NIRO 1.1 Pro, which is a great unit for movies (no complaints at all), but who's stereo playback leaves a lot to be desired.

Anyway, I just happened upon Denon's 2 new high end HTIB packages. Check out the link below. I haven't found a place to hear them yet, but the specs look very good. Denon's speakers, while not audiophile grade continue to improve with every iteration. If the speakers turn out to be good, these units offer a lot.

See link in below post (have to get to 5 entries before I can post the link).

Kipa

Kipa

08-10-05, 11:35 AM

Bump - Post #4

Kipa

08-10-05, 11:36 AM

Bump post #5.

Kipa

Kipa

08-10-05, 11:37 AM

Here's the link to the new Denon S 101 and S301 units.

Kipa

http://blog.denon.com/s301_101/archives/2005/07/press_release.html#more

dc_pilgrim

08-11-05, 09:15 AM

Bert

08-13-05, 01:20 AM

a big improvement in stereo playback over my current NIRO 1.1 Pro, which is a great unit for movies (no complaints at all), but who's stereo playback leaves a lot to be desired.

Just wondering if you had a chance to audition NIRO's Reference system; I just got this as a secondary home theater for my den, and it just blew me away. I had my doubts about re-creating 5.1 with essentially smoke and mirrors, but the technology is definitely there, and the crispness of the sound really impressed me. I kind of prefer that "transparent and clear" type of sound to the "bright and boomy" type anyway, so this was perfect for me.

It's their top of the line at $1000+ and no DVD player, but I think it's worth every penny; it sounds high-end. Lucky thing I had an older DVD player already connected to the TV. The only use it was getting was my wife's exercise DVDs. :rolleyes:

vanelo

08-16-05, 04:53 PM

Hey, what about the M&K MP-4512 ?

Howimportant is to have HDMI connection in my home theater.? I recently bought a Panasonic 42 PX50U , which has HDMI connection so I want to make sure I get the best from my TV. For my apartment, the only system that "fits" is a 2.1 or 1.1, so basically a system with true rear speakers is out of the picture.

I appreciate any help!

dc_pilgrim

08-16-05, 06:45 PM

Hey, what about the M&K MP-4512 ?

What about it? There is a link to a review in post #3. If memory serves, its a single box with multiple speakers in it, that needs a receiver to drive it. Haven't seen anyone really talk about it. Might be a good fit for someone who already has a receiver.

What's your budget?

From what I have seen - the KEF gets the most kudos for a pure audio/musical perspective - the yamaha has the most advanced wizardry (when paired with a sub), the Niro is a solid performer.

The rest are more price competitive, with respective tradeoffs. I bought the binaura. It was pricing that sealed it. I'll review it next weekend when I get home.

Howimportant is to have HDMI connection

Some future proofing in it. I'd say its very important for a display device to have a HDCP compliant connection (either HDMI of a compliant variation of DVI) if you want to use BR or HD-DVD media. I think any audio digital input is fine for a receiver (Toslink or dig. coax), unless you want it to do video switching.

vanelo

08-16-05, 07:08 PM

Budget is important right now. It it were for me, I would have bought the DENON S-301, since the specifications seem to suit me. But, I am trying to spend less than $1000.

Thanks for answering so soon. I'll list my needs so anyone interested can help me in my decision:

1) 1 or 2 speaker system + Subwoofer
2) HDMI output
3) Medium to excellent sound quality
4) May or may not include DVD and/or Receiver

So, lets all forget about budget for a moment and if there are any products that meets my list please feel free to post them!!

dc_pilgrim

08-17-05, 08:54 AM

#2 is the tricky one. I think you pointed out on this thread or another, that the Sony has HDMI. I can't think of another one. But there are tons of these coming out, might be good to wait a few weeks until after CEDIA (early September).

You might get there with that M&K paired with a receiver & sub. I am not sure what the price points are for receivers to have HDMI ports.

Take #2 out, and the higher end Niro line looks compelling for you at your price point.

For #3 - what is your movies to music %'s? (if its 90/10 movies, the yamaha is available at solid discounts from msrp - close to your budget, I'd grab that and the dayton sub)

mczolton

08-17-05, 09:05 PM

Finally bought something. I went to Cambridge Soundworks retail store by me. Listened to their surroundworks. I liked it but wasn't sure about the $1k price. It says its sound processor is from Binaura. So I took another look at that, and noticed it was on sale from the .com arm of a large blue and yellow electronics retailer (part of their wednesday sale, and now sold out). So I bought it. Should be here in a week or so.

I've mentioned this over in the Binaura thread, but I thought I would jump in here and discuss it as well.

I currently own the ZVOX Audio 315 Sound Console coupled with an external Yamaha sub and have been please with the system. However, I have a 15x15x8 room and am pushing the ZVOX's three main speakers to their limit on DD5.1 sourced films.

In any event, I also went ahead and purchased the same system you did - the Bianura. I'm hoping it is a bit more powerful than the ZVOX setup. I plan on evaluating both. I'll report back here with my findings.

That being said, I would still recommend the ZVOX. It is easy to use, unique, and sounds very good considering the price.

For those that are interested, I have a brief guide to setting up the ZVOX 315 using a SPL meter on my website (http://www.zolton.org/2005/08/zvox-audio-315-sound-console.html)

Mark

dc_pilgrim

08-21-05, 09:08 PM

Unpacking

Well, the Binaura arrived last week while I was away. Came in a good size box, and UPS didn't treat it too bad. Inside the box, it was packaged very intelligently. Everything was secure and had a slot in the styrofoam. There is a large quick set up guide on a piece of posterboard that is the size of the top of the box. Its in full color, ans shows the setup in 3 easy steps.

The unit consists of one speaker with three drivers, plus a subwoofer which has the controller unit in it, and all the ports.

The nice thing about it is that everything is labeled, including all the major wires. In the box there are all the unit specific cables (power, speaker wire) plus an composite RCA pair, plus an audio coaxial. In addition to the wires there is a remote infrared sensor incase (like my set up) the subwoofer unit is hidden away. I wouldn't have bought the product without that.

In addition to these items, there was hardware to wall mount the speaker unit if you so desire.

On the back of the subwoofer unit there are two digital coax ports, a digital toslink port, and at least one RCA port (can't remember if there are two). The unit will decode DTS and Dolby (Digital and Pro-Logic - - I think). DTS was nice, as the Mainstage which I had strongly considered doesn't do that.

The environs

We set thus up in our den. It is a 14 x 20 room, with the back open in to the kitchen. The ceiling is vaulted from 9 feet to approximately 14 feet. So the cubic feet is huge. The (glamorous 27") TV is in a corner placement on a tv stand (not an armoire) which is katty-cornered (sp?). With a baby on the way, and since this is a high traffic / high profile location in the house it was essential that anything place in this room be unobtrosive. The speaker unit is roughly 14"x6"x5" (LxWxH) and doesn't look out of place on the tv. There are little rubber feet that can be attached (they nicely sent 5, incase you lose one) - but we haven't bothered to attached them yet. We placed the subwoofer unit behind the tv and snaked the remote sensor into our tv stand where it sits unobtrusively. The subwoofer unit looks like a desktop PC tower (a whisper thinner). It has a volume knob on it, and a small display. I can't see any of those anymore, so can't comment much more on that.

How does it sound

My expectations here are pretty minimal and I don't have golden ears. I wanted something that would add a little thump to the movies. We had also had situations where we had been pushing up the volume while watching a movie to hear the dialog better. One of the things that was appealing was that the remote had a general volume control, a bass level control, and center channel control. This is pretty nice, and it worked well in the testing. While I am talking about the remote, its pretty simple device. The three types of volume controls, a mute button, a stereo mode button, power (standby) and three mode buttons that are quick to the sources.

With those expectations, I can say it performs pretty well. The subwoofer isn't a powerhouse, but it can pack a bit of a punch. I used the LFE Demo disc that had been circulating on the builder threads, and could definitely get some level of impact when watching various scenes from Master & Commander, Jurasic Park, and Nemo.

I was curious how the surround elements would perform. I'd say its closer to 3.1 than 5.1. Might work better in a less open layout. I watched Blackhawk Down (Superbit), and could definitely track the sound when a chopper moved from the right side of the screen to the left. But nothing sounded particularly like it came from behind us. I had, years ago, seen BHD at a friends place, and I remembered the sound of the blades having more of an encircling sound. Wasn't the case with the Binaura.

I haven't really cranked it too much, but while my wife was out of the house I turned it up louder than I'd like it to be, and it didn't distort too bad. Haven't tried it with music yet, though I liked the bass I could hear in BHD when Elvis's "suspicious minds" was played in the background.

Conclusion
Well, it helped that we got this on sale. It is no substitute for a proper, 5 speaker set up. But it is definitely better than nothing, and due to the heavy WAF requirements, it performs pretty well. Given the cubic feet, the layout and the open floorplan, I don't know that spending more would be a worthwhile investment. Besides, the plan is to save cash for eventually finishing the basement where a proper system can be put in. So, for the price, I am happy. Not for everyone, but a decent niche solution.

Postscript - - my unit flaked out after just under a year. Other people have noted other problems with the dolby implimentation. Read this thread and the other one noted in post #3.

mczolton

08-22-05, 09:56 AM

Thanks for the review. I should receive mine this week. I plan on comparing it to the ZVOX Audio 315 Sound Console with and external sub.

BTW, my experience with the ZVOX would suggest that a single unit surround console's performance is pretty much on par with yours (for this price point of course).

Could you answer a question for me though? I noticed that the Binarua manual sates that the settings for bass and center gain will be set back to default when the TV input is selected. Is this true and did you find yourself adjsuting the bass/center gain frequently? I ask because I am sure my wife will not want to mess around with such things simply to watch teevee :)

Thanks,
Mark

dc_pilgrim

08-22-05, 10:27 AM

Could you answer a question for me though? I noticed that the Binarua manual sates that the settings for bass and center gain will be set back to default when the TV input is selected. Is this true and did you find yourself adjsuting the bass/center gain frequently? I ask because I am sure my wife will not want to mess around with such things simply to watch teevee

Sorry, not sure, haven't used the tv setting yet. Our current tv doesn't have audio out - so I will be using this for dvd, ps2, and maybe some digital audio (eventually). We don't even have a cable box at this point. We'll eventually upgrade the tv, and will look for audio out at that point. Since I have only used it twice, I have tinkered with the center and bass settings each time. Eventually I'd rather be able to set it and forget it. That said, if it defaults to standard settings they aren't too bad. I was definitely upping the bass, but that was probably more because it was a new toy than a scientific approach.

mczolton

08-22-05, 10:40 AM

I'll typically try to set the bass and speaker console to 75dB respectively using a SPL meter. I am hoping that once I adjust this, I won't have to tinker with it again.

Mark

mczolton

08-23-05, 06:07 PM

Dave,

How are you liking the Binaura? I just received mine today and wil set it up tomorrow evening.

I must admit, the construction is quite nice for the price we paid. I wasn't expecting it to be as sturdy as it seems to be. It looks quite nice as well.

Mark

dc_pilgrim

08-23-05, 06:33 PM

So far so good. Since we mostly use it for movies, I haven't used it since the review (damn home improvement). I am hoping to bring a few CD's down to the DVD player and test out the music performance soon.

I know what you mean. Probably should add a bit to discuss the build quality a little more. The speaker wire between the sub & the speakers is very meaty. Looks impressive. Everything seems pretty tight and solid. This is why I added the unpacking section. I was just trying to convey the quality and thoughtfulness I was seeing. I was shocked for the price. There is even a seperate cardboard box for accessories - - and they printed "accessories" on it. I don't know why, but I saved it. Its a small touch, but a nice one.

I think the issue is, we got it at a solid discount from MSRP due to BB's Wednesday sale.

vanelo

08-28-05, 10:36 PM

Do any of you guys think the Denon S301 will get cheaper anytime soon? I think thats the system Ive finally chosen but am not willing to spend that amount of money on a 2.1 system.

Would it be really worth it?

mczolton

08-29-05, 09:43 AM

I can't say I would spend that much on a 2.1 system. Although, I'm sure it depends on your budget and application. That being said, I have always been happy with Denon products in the past. From what I've seen, they don't fluctuate too much in price. I know their DVD players just went up a few months back.

Mark

mczolton

09-01-05, 08:35 PM

I've decided to keep the Binaura instead of the ZVOX Audio 315. While I still feel the ZVOX is a solid performer, especially at the MSRP, the Binaura better suits my needs. The Binaura is more capable given the size of my bedroom and my distance from the unit. The surround field also feels larger given the placement of the left and right speakers. I am also attracted to the fact that I can individually tailor the gain on the bass and center channel.

That being said, there are a couple of improvements I would make. First, I wish the Binaura would not conflict with my Tivo remote. It seems that the Binaura will repeat the last command sent to it for volume, center channel gain, and bass gain whenever any button on the Tivo remote is pushed. I have spoken with the very helpful folks at Binaura and they have informed me they are working on a solution.

Secondly, I would prefer more discrete remote commands for switching directly to a given input. While you have the option of switching directly to the TV or DVD input, you cannot switch directly to the VCR, Optical, or Coaxial input. The TV input also resets the Binaura to factory defaults. Having discrete codes for each input would make macros easier.

Third, the fact that the "TV" button resets the device is a double edged sword. It is a nice feature if I want the Binaura to reset when I activate it (possibly using a remote macro). However, I would like the ability to configure the device without having to worry that it will accidentally be reset. I would prefer to reset the device by powering down the unit (note, this is different than standby mode).

Finally, it would be nice to have shielding on the subwoofer/amplifier unit.

Other than those minor complaints, the Binaura is another excellent choice at this price point. Please do not rule out the ZVOX. At quite a bit less MSRP (depending on where and you purchase it), the ZVOX would be great for a smaller room or if you sit closer to your display.

Thanks,
Mark

dc_pilgrim

09-02-05, 10:20 AM

Mark, glad the Binuara has been mostly pleasing. Keep us posted on the TIVO fix. Don't have this device right now, but you never know. Either way, a strange result.

I think your suggestions for improvement are pretty solid. The only thing that has bothered me so far is my own fault. Since the subwoofer unit is behind my tv stand I can't see the integrated display, and sometimes wonder what the volume or source is set at. In my install it would be perfect to feed that as an overlay on the screen. But that would require a video out, which is probably overkill at this price point.

Been a nifty upgrade over my existing tv speakers for movie watching so far. I am starting to prioritize getting an mp3 player or streaming device to use it for music a bit more.

madadam

09-02-05, 10:50 AM

I have a zvox in my bedroom for sound through my portable mp3 player. I have also used it a few times with a projector/dvd player. The sound is pretty good for a small room, although the sweet spot for surround is pretty small - you better be front/center and not too far away. For music it sounds much better than many of the computer speakers available in that price range (bought for 100 on sale at best buy). But you do have to be willing to adjust the surround processing ('phasecue' in their terminology) for different recordings. The sound field can be nice using high phasecue, but vocals in particular may get lost/tinny - really depends on the recording! Also easy to install in small spaces... all in all I've been pretty happy with it.

mczolton

09-02-05, 11:17 AM

The only thing that has bothered me so far is my own fault. Since the subwoofer unit is behind my tv stand I can't see the integrated display, and sometimes wonder what the volume or source is set at.

I also have my sub behind the teevee so I can't really see it. I've solved this by setting the unit to its default when you power it on via a remote macro. The macro also adjust the bass and center to my liking and then powers everything else on. It works fairly well. I've been using "Bianura Vocal" for television viewing and Dolby Digital/DTS for DVDs. I do find that the "Binaura Vocal" setting can be a little boomy at time (even if the sub is turned down). I suspect that this has more to do with the particular channel than the unit itself though. I also tend to use Dolby Pro Logic for Tivo recorded movies.

On a side note, I have a silver ZVOX 315 to sell if anyone is interested. PM me if you are.

Thanks,
Mark

nurstnicholas

09-09-05, 10:15 AM

Hi
I am trying to decide between some 2.1 HTIB systems, to replace a "proper" Amp/CD/DVD/Speakers seperates package, for aesthetic reasons.
It will be used both for music and telly.
Most of the systems I have seen to date in the UK are relatively new to our market (except for the Kef), especially the Sony and Denon, so I wondered if any of you had any experience of them please?
Whatever I choose, the HTIB and TV will have to be fitted into a rectangular room's corner, with the viewing position up against the opposite wall at the same end of the room (with the sofa up against the opposite wall, with no space behind it) - I know not whether this affects the way that sound is bounced back off side walls, for the simulated surround?
The systems I have seen references to, are:
Kef KIT 100
Sony DAV-X1
Denon S101
Bose 321 gs
All helpful comments, links to reviews and listeners' experiences will be appreciated.
Regards

Bert

09-14-05, 01:14 PM

Ximori

09-19-05, 01:03 PM

Does anyone have some experience comparing the newer Mainstage HD with the Niro reference speakers? Thanks.

dc_pilgrim

09-19-05, 04:33 PM

laubert

09-20-05, 02:12 PM

dc_pilgrim

09-20-05, 03:22 PM

I am actually going to be fiddling with my unit tonight (or thursday), I'll try remember to measure it, and take a picture.

I am far from an expert on wires, but I can't say I have seen one like it. Worst case, the mfg may be able to help you with a longer length.

I've seen the pictures of the other unit. Looks cool. Probably a follow-up product, haven't seen anything else about it.

mczolton

09-20-05, 03:28 PM

Hi all,

What is the length of the cable speaker of the Binaura B102AC ?

Do you think if I need a longer cable, I could find one on the market ? is it
a standard cable ?

On their web site, they also show another model (B100WC). Does anybody have any information about this one (differences,..)

Thanks for your answer.

Laurent.

The B100WC unit has "wings". It doesn't have the enclosure that the B102AC has. That being said, it looks like the B102AC is the same configuration as the B100WC except for the addition of the speaker grill enclosure. I believe they function identically.

I don't recall off the top of my head, but I would say the main speaker cable is easily two meters long (maybe more).

mark

Bored

09-20-05, 04:14 PM

dc_pilgrim

09-20-05, 04:58 PM

Based on that budget, and that layout, and the MSRP's in post 3, of this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5340289&&#post5340289

The Zvox (plus sub)
Mainstage or Mainstage HD (when it finally releases) plus sub
The Binaura
The Sherwood
or the Niro

I am not sure the bouncing Yamaha would work well for you with the seating so close to the wall.

I have and like the Binaura (but I got it on sale). The Mainstage and Zvox have been well received around here in the past, but are older designs. I'd take a second look at the Niro and Sherwood based on the look of your rendered furniture, budget and room.

mczolton

09-20-05, 05:12 PM

Hoping someone here may be able to help since some of you own the 2.1 systems. I am finishing a family room and it is not an ideal setup for a 5.1 system so I figured a 2.1 system would be the way to go. Room is 15 long x 13 wide and only 8 ft ceilings so sound should bounce around well. One end opens to a stairway and the other to a dining room.

Here are some pics....
pbase(dot)com/themilkman/living_room

I am not an audiophile, just need something WAF friendly and since I buying commercial plasma need some kind of speakers. Mostly need for tv and movie, not much music. Price range is 500-600 max so it rules out my Yamaha YSP-1 :( Want something that will give decent coverage as we are sitting about 10-12' away.

Any help would be greatly appreciated....

Hey, those are some pretty cool renderings of your room.

I'd tend to agree with dc_pilgrim, the Binaura is working very well for my bedroom - seems to be a similar size to your room. My only complaint is the conflict with the Tivo remote.

I also have a ZVOX Audio 315 Sound Console which I had enjoyed before picking up the Binaura. I would still recommend it considering the price, although it may be a little small for your room.

I took a look at the Niro, but I wasn't impressed with it given the price. The higher end units look nice, but at that price, I would sooner consider a receiver and separate speakers - even if I only went with a stereo setup.

Mark

dc_pilgrim

09-20-05, 07:41 PM

Hi all,

What is the length of the cable speaker of the Binaura B102AC ?

I measured it to be approximately 120 inches. Give or take. I'll post a picture of the connection later.

EDIT - picture of the end of the cable attached:

Iliketowatch

09-21-05, 06:13 AM

vanelo

09-21-05, 07:28 PM

Two words for Sony DAV-X1: No surround!!!!!!!

Terrible choice.

mczolton

09-21-05, 08:32 PM

dear nurstnicholas

dav-x1 is a pretty good deal, if you buy it with a tv at the same time u get £150 cash back which aint bad.

cant post a link cos thebsite sed so :confused:

check out vanns(dot)com for a review.

hope this helps :cool:

That better perform wonders for the price. Otherwise I'd be looking at the Yamaha or one of the higher priced Niro systems.

Mark

laubert

09-22-05, 05:58 PM

I measured it to be approximately 120 inches. Give or take. I'll post a picture of the connection later.

EDIT - picture of the end of the cable attached:
Thank you for your answer.

Did you have the chance to listen some music on the Binaura ?

Laurent.

dc_pilgrim

09-23-05, 09:02 AM

Did you have the chance to listen some music on the Binaura ?

Laurent.

A little. I am not golden ears, but it sounds better than anything in my house. Now that isn't saying too much, as the competition is various computer speakers, alarm clocks, and boomboxes. I listened to the soundtrack from the Royal Tennebaums (sp?), which has a few orchestral pieces and fringe pop songs. I thought it sounded pretty clear, but I have heard better elsewhere. The difference maker for me was the prescence of a sub - made a much bigger difference with music then I would have imagined. Ignorance was bliss, now I want to upgrade the computer set up where my mp3s sit.

Nutshell - to my untrained ears, pretty good. But I wouldn't consider it a competitor to separates.

mczolton

09-23-05, 11:19 AM

Thank you for your answer.

Did you have the chance to listen some music on the Binaura ?

Laurent.

No comment. I haven't listened to any music on it unless you count move soundtracks - which sound pretty damn good for such an affordable unit.

Mark

Ximori

09-28-05, 09:01 PM

Mainstage HD is still "coming soon." Its about a year behind schedule if you read the 2004 CEDIA press release on there site. ( www.soundmatters.com ).

But based on price alone, I'd imagine the Niro would be superior.

dc, so it should be available now, correct?

since they both have a good return policy I might give them a test drive. While I don't expect them to sound more superior than my current setup of NHT Superzeros and Paradigm Atoms, I'm hoping they will sound better than computer HT speakers like the Logitechs or Klipschs.

dc_pilgrim

09-28-05, 10:07 PM

Nope - still not available right now.

http://www.soundmatters.com/mainstagehd.html

I got an e-mail from them the other day indicated that the first batch of their mini-sub had arrived, and were going to send out on a first come-first serve basis. That product still says "coming soon," so I am guessing that they are offering the sub to the people on their mailing list.

I'll post if I hear anything else. Bear in mind, I started to look at the "HD" version in January. Its been pretty delayed. The regular version could be pretty good as a stand-in, but the light blinks when ideal - which would bother me.

nurstnicholas

09-29-05, 04:09 AM

Has anyone any experience of the above 2.1 system please?
Thanks

tristanjohn

09-30-05, 03:15 PM

Nurstnicholas;

Seems like no one replied to your request for suggestions, so I thought I'd put in my 2 cents. How about the Niro systems?

I'm not an expert, but I use KEF's in my primary HT where everything is a separate. I got a Niro Reference system about a month ago for my smaller den set-up, and the Niro has the closest sound to my KEF's that I've ever heard in any audio system. And that includes when I listen to music on it. I just like the type of transparent clarity that KEF's produce, and thought that if you're a KEF fan you might appreciate that. With your set-up though, you may need to get their Sound Diffusers, because they don't utilize the reflected sound off your walls. It's the opposite; they use direct sound to create the virtual surround.

Here's their site: www.niro1.com

Good Luck!

You make me want to listen to your KEF setup now. When I think of "transparent" sound my mind's mental calipers wrap themselves around my large Advents, which still today (at least in some circles) are considered a sort of standard of transparency and neutrality of sound. (I read an article somewhere, not all that long ago--a few years past--of a sound engineer who still uses a pair of Advents positioned right off to the front of his mixing board for his reference speakers.) And for what it's worth, thirty years ago and more KEF enjoyed a somewhat similar reputation in the industry, though I've sort of lost track of that company and its product line over time.

Getting back to the request of Nurstnicholas: it could well be that the Niro Reference system is the perfect solution for his cramped-spaced needs. From what I've read (and there doesn't seem to be that much out there, or at least not readily available) this system is more of a "hot spot" design, and that sounds like just the ticket for the room configuration described by Nurstnicholas.

One thing that makes me wonder about the Niro Reference package is the allusion to the plastic housing of that main speaker module. It could be that the plastic employed is a material of high grade and a quality for ultra-low resonance, but still, whenever I hear the word "plastic" my psyche is conditioned to quickly ask myself . . . plastic? :) (This opposed to the supposedly excellent build quality, say, of the Yamaha YSP-1 package.)

Anyway, I'd like to hear both systems (as well as yours now, as I mentioned), for my living room could stand some kind of decent sound upgrade for watching movies into the night, and I don't have a lot of space to work with there, either.

dc_pilgrim

09-30-05, 06:39 PM

Has anyone any experience of the above 2.1 system please?
Thanks

Sorry, any product links? Happy to add it to the list on post 3.

chesky

10-06-05, 10:46 AM

Dear nurstnicholas,

I was looking aroung for a 2.1 system like you do. Was interested in the bose 321 gsII system until I chanced across Denon S-101.

There is a few reason why I chose a 2.1 system, first is that no messsy cables all over the place, if you have a ipod, =) I prefer a simple set-up with good quality sound from both my CDs and DVDs.

My initial impression of the Denon s101 was the solution to what i wanted, Bose 321 GSII was too costly (although S301 was about the same price). First I'm using the Sharp 32" LCD, connected with the Denon s101 was a perfect match in look and design.

Set-up was easy as ABC. No Fuss! Now to the music. You would expect clear and warm sounding for vocals. The bass is not too overwhelming. However I heard some hissing (background) sound when i turn up the volume quite a bit. (still investigating) As for DVD, it did ok or perharps better than i expexted.. All this is what i heard out of the box. Nothing was tune, purely factory settings.

I'm not an expert in Home theatre neither I'm a audiophile, although I used to have quite a decent set-up(tube amps, copland cd player, monitor audio speakers, etc)before. This Denon s101 is not for everybody. If you are one who's

* looking for a good looking HTIB,
* fits into your interior home design,
* good dvd entertainment
* good soundings
* owns a IPOD and loving it!!
* simple set-up,
* fuss free,
* etc

Hope this helps. if you guys needs any photo of my set-up can pm me!! thanks

Chauncy Gardner

10-08-05, 03:58 PM

First off, great thread everyone.

Personally, I think the minimalist approach to home theater sound is where the mainstream market will be heading in the future and that's what makes this discussion so pertinent.

I just completed a search for an upgrade to the family room TV sound and like alot of folks dipping their toe into the HT pool had to weigh the usual factors like budget, WAF, ergonomics, and space. A couple were constraining, especially WAF and my own ignorance.

After several weeks of reading everything from forums like this, product reviews, expert advice, etc. I found myself not just overwhelmed by the sheer number of choices out there but lusting for more, bigger, better. A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing and I realized I was suffering from a classic case of project creep. And I was about to really piss off the wife. I had forgotten the original and primary goal - to turn off my TV speakers and get more enveloped by quality sound be it for a DVD, a ball game, or a sitcom.

One problem I had with many of the solutions discussed on this thread is that my family room TV sits inside an armoire. Another complication is that the armoire sits in a corner. This made the Yamaha and Niro unusable.

I auditioned the Bose and thought they sounded better than all the e-bashing going on. I just give them poor marks on value.

Then I eliminated zvox due to lack of inputs. Mainstage looks promissing but months of delays with the new product has me concerned about potential problems with the product, company, or both.

I happen to live near a Cambridge Soundworks store so I went to audition the Surroundworks. It sounded very nice but either due to the in-store set-up or my own limitations, I wasn't getting a grand worth of surround stage. Plus, I already have a DVD player. Half-jokingly I asked the salesman, "What else you got?" He flashed a wry grin, leaned towards me and just above a whisper said, "I've got a sweet little system that will blow you away, if you can live with stereo."

Stereo, especially audiophile quality stereo in a small package, was going to be light years from my tin-can TV sound so I gladly followed him to the far wall where I was introduced to the Megaworks 210d.

Long story short, I have this system installed at home and just can't believe my ears. A 270 watt system, an 8" bass that get down to 35Hz, and two satelites that deliver very rich sound. As a kicker, this $299 system is being discontinued and is quietly being "closed out" at an unbelievable $149.

I realize this strays from the intent of the thread, but I was in the same shoes as many here, and this was the solution for me. One man's journey.

Chance

Ximori

10-11-05, 12:42 AM

Chance, good one.

I'm still blown away by Cambridge's first satellite pc speakers, up to now. Way back then, there seem to be only few that had succeeded in packing in rich quality sound inside those tiny cubes

Just ordered Niro reference today to try out...

Ximori

10-11-05, 01:20 PM

dc_pilgrim

10-11-05, 05:24 PM

Well they redesigned their website. Looks like they are finally, really ready to go. Good for them. Says "on/before" 11/15 - - could check return policy on the Niro. . . Others have been pleased with that system, so I think you'll be happy either way.

I looked at the remote for the HD, which is an update on their last one. But I noticed how it is virtually the twin of the remote on the Binaura I have. Never noticed that before. Kind of funny, makes you wonder if these design shops source their manufacturing to the same place - - or if the weird hourglass remote is the hallmark of virtual surround. I'm rambling now.

Either way, please post your thoughts on the Niro. Chauncey & Chesky - - appreciate the reviews/comments, also.

EDIT - Got the promotional e-mail from them. They said hope to be ready to ship before the end of October, and the 11/15 date is the "at the latest" date if they have customs issues. I wish them the best of luck with their product launch.

chesky

10-12-05, 09:25 PM

Hi, personally I had not tried the Niro system as it is not available in my country. However I'm impressed with it, (looking at their website).. Great innovation, cool design... Sound?? maybe someone can share here?? =)

I'm still at the mist of testing my new denon s-101. Trying out LOTR, (return of the king) next monday.. stay tune guys!!!

Regards

Ximori

10-17-05, 12:02 PM

Earlier, I pulled out my review with the Niro system b/c I thought it deserved more listening time.

Later though I will highlight the strengths and weaknesses of this remarkable speaker.

dc_pilgrim

10-17-05, 01:55 PM

Ximori - take your time, but I hope you repost with your further thoughts.

I read the review, all seemed very positive, I was surprised to read your impression of the "surround" elements in the sweat spot. The Binaura, in my opinion doesn't deliver much in the virtual surround, but is an excellent (budget) virtual 3.1. I had assumed the Yamaha in the right kind of room was the only one who could acheive a more enveloping sound.

mczolton

10-17-05, 07:59 PM

For the cost of the Yamaha or the Niro Pro, I would seriously consider a full-fledge surround sound system. Besides, I wouldn't expect a single unit speaker system to rival five or more correctly placed speakers.

Mark

Ximori

10-17-05, 08:55 PM

Dave, I was just brainstorming while typing that review. Then I realized only later that it didn't seem fair enough as l was simply placing more emphasis on its WFE (wow factor effect). Somehow I felt more drawn by the thunderous sounds it delivered, rather than putting more listening time with different materials to test it with.

Mark, I agree -one box will never replace 5 that are set up properly. However, of those ~1k system, how many can really deliver very natural surrounding effects? I'd say, quite a few. But let me put it more in perspective: In my conventional 5-speaker HT setup, you normally hear 70% of the sound coming from the front, left, and right channels while 30% surrounds from the rear, when listening to a good surround source material, such as Gladiator. Sound placement is wide and detectable as you enjoy the 360 degree soundfield.

With the Niro system, they feel more like a 80/20 spread or less on a front/side dispersion. There are times when they reach beyond the 180 degree soundfield thus giving you the sense that they were coming from the rear. Although the effects themselves sound very thin, but they're there somewhere... :)

I don't know much about the Pro1 but I presume the Reference is more superior, not to mention that it came with a newer firmware update for noticeable improvements and DTS support.

Now, maybe the Yamaha does a better job with this type of technology but I doubt that the quality of sound and sonic detail you hear is on par with the Niro system, based on the several reviews. This Niro Reference system kicks butt and can compete with 3K systems at their own sonic level, IMO. Anyhow, the only way really to find out is thru a side-side comparison.

I have a busy week so will try to post more impressions this coming weekend. Later.

mczolton

10-19-05, 08:55 PM

FYI: Home Theater Magazine has a great review of the Binaura in their latest issue. The review isn't on their site yet, but they gave it a solid 90/100.

Mark

dc_pilgrim

11-23-05, 10:01 PM

FYI: Home Theater Magazine has a great review of the Binaura in their latest issue. The review isn't on their site yet, but they gave it a solid 90/100.

Mark

Here is the link.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hometheaterinabox/1105binaura/

This topic (1.1 or 2.1) has come up a bit recently. Post 3 has my list of devices. I need to add the Polksurround bar (or something like that) at some point. The Yamaha has added two updated models - YSP-800 & YSP-1000 - - which include some auto-calibration features. Looks neat.

mczolton

11-27-05, 12:39 PM

I am still enjoying my Binaura - especially for the price :)

Mark

grinchy

11-29-05, 12:14 AM

I'd love to get one of these, the Mainstage HD and sub are appealing. Trouble is there's a bit of a distribution problem for my room. In the back middle of a 15 x 20 foot space, is the DVD player and Projector. In the front would be the single speaker. Who's seen a 40 foot optical or coax digital cable?

dc_pilgrim

11-29-05, 08:41 AM

Who's seen a 40 foot optical or coax digital cable?

You'd probably have to make them. You can get all the supplies at parts express (.com) or the like. I have seen threads on the speakers forum discussing making your own speaker wires. There is nothing magical about digital coax, so I'd imagine its doable.

dc_pilgrim

11-30-05, 09:44 AM

To follow up, this thread had a discussion on cables with a bunch of links.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6625631#post6625631

including this one to a 40-50 RCA cable. $76 bucks, but an option.

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/audio_video_1695a.html#long

mczolton

11-30-05, 09:51 AM

mrkrispy

12-02-05, 08:20 PM

Anyone have good suggestions on where to purchase the Binaura setup? Most of the links I have found no longer exist. It looks like the Binaura package has been going for $200-$300.

any big box retailers sell it so I can take a look/hear in person?

dc_pilgrim

12-02-05, 09:19 PM

I believe target.com has it at MSRP. Bestbuy had them, but don't seem to any more. I got mine during one of their Wednesday sales.

Never seen them in an actual B&M store.

mczolton

12-03-05, 09:48 AM

Best Buy had it as a "Web Only" special. http://www.globalsemi.com/ also has it for MSRP.

Mark

James Hill

12-03-05, 12:33 PM

Very glad to see this thread. Thanks for all the information! Here's my $0.02...

I've owned the ZVOX for about a year now and love it. Given the proper room size it's the perfect solution for casual TV viewing or music listening.

As some have previously stated, the "catch" is that this box needs to be used with one device. This means using it with the "audio out" on your television (which I'm doing) or with a single music player (an iPod or an Airport Express, both of which I've tested).

Does anyone know how the ZVOX company is doing as a whole? In some ways I'm shocked that this device hasn't received more press than it has, and the only "new" product they have planned is called the "Porta Party"... Not exactly a high point in marketing genius.

James Hill

dc_pilgrim

12-03-05, 06:15 PM

and the only "new" product they have planned is called the "Porta Party"... Not exactly a high point in marketing genius.

That is too funny. I thought I had read "somewhere" that they had a follow on product coming. Maybe that's the "PP". I thought they were trying to hop on the I-pod bandwagon with their next product.

Ximori

12-03-05, 10:11 PM

I wonder why they keep moving the dates for the Mainstage. They will lose credibility if they continue doing this...

It'll be interesting to match the Binaura against the Niro for half the price.

mrkrispy

12-04-05, 02:57 AM

I am leaning towards the Binaura based on reviews, flexibility, and the price point. Our room doesn't have the proper wall setup to reflect the waves using the Yamaha YSP setups, so I am hoping the Binaura is good. I am a little worried about the lack of connectivity though.

That and I like my older Pioneer THX Elite receiver, hard to imagine shelving that for a Single Speaker setup....but I am no longer able to run the surrounds so....

PlasmaToad

12-10-05, 01:28 AM

Has anyone seen\heard this?

Xitel Soundaround (http://www.xitel.com/product_soundaround.htm)

You supply the speakers.

Opinions? I too am interested in the Binaura, but this one has me intrigued.

Ximori

12-10-05, 11:39 PM

Haha...another similar remote! Interesting.

Anyhow, I visited a store today that carries the Yamaha YSP. The surround elements that sounded thin in the Niro system were wider and more pronounced in the Yamaha. I was surprised how more distinct they were - so far the best I've heard in that department. However, the quality in the fronts were not as clear as the Niro's, at least from what I recall. Unfortunately, I no longer have the Niro and didn't spend enough time today with the Yamaha as I was also curious with which type of cables that were used in that speaker...I guess too soon to make an early impression.

dc_pilgrim

12-11-05, 09:12 AM

The yamaha, in a room where the sounds will bounce is impressive. I listen to one the other day, and felt a little buyers remorse. My floorplan is pretty open, and it probably wouldn't have worked as well in my place anyways.

Hadn't seen the xitel box before. Looks like it is an add-on that simulates what binaura/mainstage/virtual dolby, etc are doing. I guess it adds a few variables based on the placement and quality of your existing system. But for one hundred bucks . . .

plughplover

12-12-05, 02:13 AM

Anyone have good suggestions on where to purchase the Binaura setup? Most of the links I have found no longer exist. It looks like the Binaura package has been going for $200-$300.
I just picked one up on Ebay - the box was labeled with (among other things) "Carton 353 of 630" so I think he's got a few more to move :)

henryd31

12-12-05, 02:39 PM

Sos I guess mainstagehd is still not out yet ?

SixPacForSur

12-12-05, 07:55 PM

OK, I have purchased the Sherwood "Hollywood at Home" (VR-670) 2.1 system as a family Christmas present. Since I can't hook it up until X-mas, I was wondering if anyone else out there has heard one? It got some solid reviews from the few mags and blogs that have demo'd it, but I'd be interested in hearing what you guys thought. Thanks.

zrx1100

12-16-05, 08:36 PM

I just picked one up on Ebay - the box was labeled with (among other things) "Carton 353 of 630" so I think he's got a few more to move :)

Who was the seller?

Thanks

plughplover

12-17-05, 12:47 PM

Who was the seller?

Thanks

I hope this doesn't violate any forum rules...

do a search on ebay for "binaura"
the username is "consumersolutions"

zrx1100

12-17-05, 04:50 PM

Thank you

How do you like it, honestly. I am split between binaura and bose freestyle

mczolton

12-18-05, 11:13 AM

I am really enjoying my Binaura.

Mark

plughplover

12-18-05, 12:53 PM

Thank you

How do you like it, honestly. I am split between binaura and bose freestyle

As opposed to lying? Well gee, if you insist :rolleyes:

The three walls to my condo living room are where furniture etc are placed. The fourth side consists of ~8' opening into kitchen, ~4' wall where TV is located, ~3' opening to hallway, ~3' opening to basement stairs. As I didn't think speakers stands in the walkways was practical, for me it came down to the Niro 600 or the Binaura.

It is a huge improvement over the below-the-screen speakers built into the TV (Samsung Slimfit 3080), and in the sweet spot (couch opposite TV) there is surprising soundstage and ambience. It has enough power and sound output (in a quiet room) to handle the dynamic range of the DVDs I've watched so far without noticable distortion during loud passages or ear strain during quiet ones, however there isn't much reserve capacity. It does not reproduce the very top or bottom end of the audio range, but I didn't expect an audiophile quality system at this price point. I have not noted any signs of listener fatique after several hours.

It has enough inputs for my needs (toslink from TV's ota dtv tuner, spdif from Oppo dvd player, analog stereo from TV's cable tuner) leaving one spdif and one analog input to spare.

At less than half the price of the Niro 600, I am *quite* satisfied.

For that matter, at $1500 for the Slimfit TV + Binaura + Oppo dvd + stand + attic antenna + universal remote, I am tickled pink with the entire package :D

zrx1100

12-18-05, 08:23 PM

Thanks for the reply. Binaura sounds promising. I live in a studio in San Francisco, so I am not too worried about power output. I would like, though, to use it for both, video and audio. Have you tried listening to any audio on it?

Thanks

mczolton

12-19-05, 09:34 AM

I'm not really much of a critical music listener. Sorry I can't help you there.

Mark

dc_pilgrim

12-21-05, 08:12 PM

Also not a critical listener. Although as a novice I have enjoyed listening to music from it. Its better than anything in my house - but that is thin competition (misc boomboxes and pc speakers). The sub is a changer for me, and it is a pretty meager sub in these parts.

plughplover

12-31-05, 06:38 AM

mczolton

12-31-05, 12:44 PM

Think I've found a "bug" with the Binaura...

When processing stereo signals (via coax or analog inputs) you have three choices of "Stereo Mode" - 'Binaura Stereo', 'Binaura Vocal', or 'Dolby Prologic'

I fed the unit some Dolby Prologic encoded material, from a variety of sources, via both digital and analog inputs, setting the unit to Prologic mode in each case.

In all cases the bass output just about vanishes.

I'll have to check on this. In my experience, selecting 'Pro Logic' results in less output from the sub, but it is still there. You just have to turn the sub up.

Try this, feed the Binaura a Dolby Digital 5.1 signal and see if you can switch listening modes on the digital (DVD, optical, and coaxial) inputs. On my unit, it locks into 'Dolby Digital'. Some DVD material that is truly Dolby Digital 2.0 is incorrectly flagged as DD 5.1. Since the Binaura locks into DD mode, the disc doesn't sound right.

I confirmed this with the folks at Binaura and I believe they are working on a revised unit that will correct this.

Thanks,
Mark

plughplover

12-31-05, 01:58 PM

Yes DD stream locks it into "Dolby Digital". However, that's not related to my testing.

For example, in one case I used a Dolby Digital demo disk I have that has selectable Stereo, Surround, and 5.1 mixes. I fed (1) analog stereo and (2) digital PCM to the Binaura from the dvd player. In "Binaura Stereo" mode I had ample bass, in "Dolby Prologic" mode practically none.

I've also noted this with ProLogic encoded analog audio from PS2 games and TV broadcasts (so it's not a source related issue ).

Oh, and even turning up the sub all the way doesn't come close to the bass level when in 'Binaura Stereo" mode with the sub flat.

As there is no provision for firmware upgrades, I guess we are stuck with it as it is. But if anyone thinking about purchase is interested in the Prologic decoding, beware - there is a problem that makes that feature of questionable value.

dc_pilgrim

01-01-06, 10:54 AM

I am finding that the binaura has a little difficulty resetting after a power outage. Basically, after an outage it has difficulty detecting its feeds and auto switching. I have been toggling the power switch, and then switching between digital and analog feeds trying to 'wake it up'. Selecting the input doesn't seem to get it done. Its not a big deal, but its a bit of a PITA since I have the main unit tucked behind furniture.

It could be the sony tv's outputting which is the source of the problem - - but I don't think so, as it wasn't picking up the audio from the separately fed dvd player either.

Hadn't noticed the pro-logic issue. Probably in part because the unit is behind the stand, so I don't play with the modes much.

mczolton

01-01-06, 12:32 PM

mczolton

01-01-06, 12:33 PM

Yes DD stream locks it into "Dolby Digital". However, that's not related to my testing.

I know, I was just asking :)

Mark

plughplover

01-01-06, 11:06 PM

I know, I was just asking :)

Mark

No problem - did the test and confirmed your finding.

Possibly related, I've noticed various weirdness when feeding DD from HDTV broadcasts as network and local station switch between program and various commercials. I suspect it has to do with 5.1 vs 2.0 streams...

I am finding that the binaura has a little difficulty resetting after a power outage. Basically, after an outage it has difficulty detecting its feeds and auto switching. I have been toggling the power switch, and then switching between digital and analog feeds trying to 'wake it up'. Selecting the input doesn't seem to get it done.

Haven't had any power problems so can't comment on that, but I have had static discharges cause it to go goofy a few times. Had to power it down/up once to get working again, but other times just switching inputs brought it back.

mczolton

01-02-06, 10:08 AM

Possibly related, I've noticed various weirdness when feeding DD from HDTV broadcasts as network and local station switch between program and various commercials. I suspect it has to do with 5.1 vs 2.0 streams...

I'm willing to bet this is correct but I'm not using the Binaura for HDTV so I can't confirm it. My Integra receiver switches between DD5.1 and DDPLII during commercials on my other setup though. This sounds similar.

Mark

henryd31

01-03-06, 02:44 PM

So what happened to these guys ? Are they actually shipping, if so anyone got
any type of experience with the new box yet ?

Ximori

01-05-06, 02:35 AM

So what happened to these guys ? Are they actually shipping, if so anyone got
any type of experience with the new box yet ?

I sent them an e-mail and got a quick reply saying that the product will begin shipping the end of this week and should have backorders filled by early next.

The website will be updated soon as well.

tolax

01-06-06, 12:16 PM

I am just about to order a HD Panasonic 42" Plasma and it is going to be in an L-shaped room. From where the TV will sit the right wall is about 6ft away and the left wall about 20ft away! Sofa is about 12 ft back directly in front of the TV and it is hard against the back wall.

From reading the thread (good links thanks) and the reviews it would seem that the 'bounce off walls' systems such as the Yamaha are not going to work - no space behind sofa and mismatched left/right walls.

Looking to ideally spend $600 maybe up to $1000. Not really that fussed about an integrated DVD player as I use an existing DIVX player most of the time and it is mainly the kids that use the DVD anyway (Wiggles in HD anyone?) :) Aside from the kids programs the set will mainly be used for watching regular TV.

The reviews of the Binaura seem generally positive but would it would be worth waiting for the mainstageHD or possibly going with the Denon S-101 or one of the Niro's.

Any advice gratefully received

Thanks

Tolax

dc_pilgrim

01-07-06, 07:02 AM

Those are generally the models I'd look at.

Be careful with the Mainstage HD and shipping promises. If they really aren't shipping next week, I wouldn't "hang on" for it. It is about a year behind schedule, and was alway "just about ready to be released."

You might want to add the Polk Surround bar to your list. I have been meaning to add that to Post #3 as another possibility.

The Denon, Yamaha and maybe the Polk are readily available at B&M retaillers. You may want to demo them, or buy them with a good return policy. The others can be ordered on-line, and generally have good return policies (some free ship back) but that is definitely a more complex process.

Is this just for movies or do you plan to use it for music. If you want music, you may want to look at the various 2.1 systems (Denon, KEF), as they will allow for stereo separation.

Good luck in your search. Please post back any comments.

Ximori

01-09-06, 11:46 PM

good news - soundmatter website updated and they began shipping.

plughplover

01-10-06, 01:55 PM

Try this, feed the Binaura a Dolby Digital 5.1 signal and see if you can switch listening modes on the digital (DVD, optical, and coaxial) inputs. On my unit, it locks into 'Dolby Digital'. Some DVD material that is truly Dolby Digital 2.0 is incorrectly flagged as DD 5.1. Since the Binaura locks into DD mode, the disc doesn't sound right.

I confirmed this with the folks at Binaura and I believe they are working on a revised unit that will correct this.

Thanks,
Mark

Just curious, how did you 'confirm this with the folks at Binaura'? I tried email'ing the address on the web page, but got no response. Also, the 800 number printed on the instruction manual has been disconnected.

mczolton

01-10-06, 02:07 PM

Just curious, how did you 'confirm this with the folks at Binaura'? I tried email'ing the address on the web page, but got no response. Also, the 800 number printed on the instruction manual has been disconnected.

I just emailed their support staff. They were pretty good about getting back to me within a day.

Mark

chipshot

01-10-06, 04:21 PM

Polk Audio has a single surround speaker now as well. It's called the SurroundBar. I'm not allowed to post links since I'm a new member.

soundmax

01-11-06, 12:20 AM

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum and want to say thanks for all the infomative posts. :)

I'm very close to purchasing the Binaura. I'll be using the system in my bedroom to accompany the brand new Sharp Aquos 15LCD and DVD player. This is a secondary system to my main 5.1 in the den.

I'm a little concerned about the set up though. I'm viewing the TV from my front left as I'm on the bed. I'm wondering how the front channel will sound given it would be about a foot or so below ear level and over to the left. Maybe I'm being too funny about that. I read the instruction manual and it talks about the importance of main speak placement. I can neither place it on top or directly under the TV.

dc_pilgrim or mczolton, how is your main channel set up in relation to your TV?

mczolton

01-11-06, 09:34 AM

dc_pilgrim

01-11-06, 04:27 PM

My take is similar to Mark's. Mine is on top of my CRT, angled down slightly. If it isn't extremely far, it shouldn't be a big problem.

soundmax

01-11-06, 10:01 PM

dc_pilgrim, mczolton, thanks for the response. I may pick it up this weekend. :)

Ximori

01-13-06, 12:38 PM

A few months ago, I compared the Niro Reference system against a 5K system - the Triads Gold Omni6 /In ceiling speakers mated with a B&W sub and, I believe, a 1K+ Yamaha receiver. My neighbor who owns the system was stunned as to how the Niro nearly matched the soundstage of his Triads when Saving Private Ryan was demoed. In, fact he thought of getting one for his 42" plasma. Surround imaging still remain thin - but there simply is no contest when comparing the virtual elements against the real thing, anyway. Without having to do any side by side comparison with a true 5.1 HT system I really doubt that you will be disappointed with the Niro. One unique feature I think where it excels among others is in the way it delivers full body sound with great imaging. The sound you hear never feels crammed into one tiny speaker. And the quality and detail coming out under high volumes is uncanny. The system can play clean w/o restraint no matter how much you crank the volume. Dialogues have weight and sound natural and are much clearer than some center channels I've heard out there. Also, the bass/ midrange ranks from good to excellent with any type of film and music as well.

Ideally, I would like to have two Niros - one at front and a second from behind, to achieve discrete 6.1. If ever they apply this I'm never going back to a 5-speaker HT setup. I actually read from reviews that it was done before but wasn’t as refined nor successful. My guess is neither the better versions, like the Reference or the Pro II models, nor the upgraded amplifier, were ever used for that type of implementation at the time.

Having said that, I ordered on Wednesday the Full Stage HD from soundmatters to see how it’ll stack up with the pricier Niro. It consists of the Mainstage HD + sub. If sound delivers as advertised and prove somewhere in the Home theatre “blow your socks off” level, then I may have to keep it and order another set to connect to the rears for a true 6.1 set up. I wish I still have the Niro for direct comparison though.

dc_pilgrim

01-13-06, 06:02 PM

ximori - - I am looking forward to your comments on the fullstage. Hope it was worth the wait.

soundmax

01-14-06, 08:43 PM

Best Buy had a web special and I took the plunge. Should be here in another week. I actually had a chance to see it and touch it for real today. Seems to have a sturdy build quality. Anyway, I'll comment further once the Binaura is set up.

Ximori

01-15-06, 12:29 AM

ximori - - I am looking forward to your comments on the fullstage. Hope it was worth the wait.

I previewed the Mainstage HD for a couple of hours...well, I still have my socks on. :D Without getting too much in detail I came out very disappointed with this speaker. It definitely isn't worth the wait - and you're probably better off keeping the Binaura or wait till something new or more valuable comes out. Put simply, the Mainstage HD sounds as it looks – small and thin. I'm thinking this should be compared more with the Niro's movie mouse or one of those bose wave systems? I should have known better by just looking at specs alone and size of it. In the surrounds department...ZERO. I even went to a smaller room, like 10x12 to see if there will be some improvement.

This makes my choice easier. Having now heard the Niro Reference, Yamaha YSP, and Mainstage HD, the Niro is just a different animal. And since the Niro Pro II is slight cheaper, has the same core but different design as the Reference - this is what I think will be getting.

rmeyers30

01-17-06, 01:35 PM

I previewed the Mainstage HD for a couple of hours...well, I still have my socks on. :D Without getting too much in detail I came out very disappointed with this speaker. It definitely isn't worth the wait - and you're probably better off keeping the Binaura or wait till something new or more valuable comes out. Put simply, the Mainstage HD sounds as it looks – small and thin. I'm thinking this should be compared more with the Niro's movie mouse or one of those bose wave systems? I should have known better by just looking at specs alone and size of it. In the surrounds department...ZERO. I even went to a smaller room, like 10x12 to see if there will be some improvement.

This makes my choice easier. Having now heard the Niro Reference, Yamaha YSP, and Mainstage HD, the Niro is just a different animal. And since the Niro Pro II is slight cheaper, has the same core but different design as the Reference - this is what I think will be getting.
I also was dissapointed by the FUllstage when I first received it. BUT I found that adjustiing the settings on the substage greatly improved things. The setting they tell you to start with are terrible for my set up which I think is typical. The Fullstage is next to the substage at the front of the room. The factory sets the phase to 180 and the level at 0. I found that setting the phase to 0 made a huge difference. Much much better. Now I am increasing the level to see what works best.

A little tweaking went a long way even if the socks are still on. For 600$ I think the fullstage is a good deal.

Ximori

01-17-06, 06:30 PM

rm, I’ve tried just about every setting. While there are improvements by positioning the sub the sound still feels crammed inside the box without having an open sense wide soundstage. And have you heard those annoying clicking noises as you increase the volume? Perhaps your experience is different from mine, however, I compared and based this from the Niro sound. Thanks for chiming in though…to each his own. I personally won’t spend 600 bucks for that quality.

Btw, I found the Substage a better piece. It is well built and cool that you can slip one underneath your couch or bedroom. I’d say the sub sounds like a real subwoofer and delivers the low ends quite well.

rmeyers30

01-18-06, 10:03 AM

Luckily I didn't hear any annoying clicks as I increased the sound. Unfortunately I haven't heard the NIRO system so I can't compare against that. I do have a real 5.1 system in my basement so I know what you mean by sound stage.

So far my experience seems to depend greatly on the source. For television the system isn't very expansive but I didn't have that expectation. With cable I am thankful I can get a picture :). The mainstage is a marginal improvment over the sound on my toshiba rear projection television in this case. The rear projection sound wasn't all that bad since the sound is coming from a pretty sizable speaker. The mainstage improved on the clarity of the sound, not in the surround sensation. On the other hand, DVDs like Batman Begins and Star wars III sounded much more robust and I was pleased with the way the system performed.

At this point I plan on keeping the mainstagehd + substage although I agree it didn't live up to the hype. I would be very interested to see what other people think.

nferra2

01-18-06, 07:32 PM

I just got the binuara system today, and for my purposes it seems like it will do ok. However i have a couple of problems that i do not know if there are fixes or not. One, i get a hum from the subwoofer at any volume over 30, it doesn't matter if the sub is + or - 10 db. Second, there is almost no output when the sub is in dolby prologic mode. I have both my xbox and cable box hooked directly to the unit via the L&R outputs from the component cables.

Any suggestions?

soundmax

01-19-06, 09:18 PM

nferra2,

I don't have mine yet but could there be electrical interference somehow?

Hopefully dc_pilgrim or mczolton will be able to offer a suggestion as they already have the system. Haven't read about this problem in their posts. Have you tried the trouble shooting guide at Binaura website? Not sure where you live but if you are in Canada they have a repair centre and number below. If you get this issue cleared up be sure and post please.

Global Electronic Supplies Inc.
Binaura Repair Center
5600 Timberlea Blvd
Mississauga, Ontario
Canada L4W 4M6

1-800-668-8776

sv_chamelea

01-19-06, 09:44 PM

I just got the binuara system today, ... get a hum from the subwoofer at any volume over 30, it doesn't matter if the sub is + or - 10 db.
This humming of sub raises a question I've wondered about. My nearby Radio Shack is pretty insistent on selling the Monster-brand of surge protector for all expensive AV components, especially LCD and/or plasma screens. I'd think that all audio components could benefit too.

Just a little curious about how many feel a surge protector / filter is important when connecting AV components to their house power?

emorphien

01-19-06, 11:20 PM

This humming of sub raises a question I've wondered about. My nearby Radio Shack is pretty insistent on selling the Monster-brand of surge protector for all expensive AV components, especially LCD and/or plasma screens. I'd think that all audio components could benefit too.

Just a little curious about how many feel a surge protector / filter is important when connecting AV components to their house power?
I stick to a basic APC surge protector, nothing fancy. Ratshack just tells you that so they can sell you something absurdly overpriced.

I've never heard hum out of any sub anywhere I've lived, and I have always just used a basic surge protector.

dc_pilgrim

01-19-06, 11:35 PM

Sorry, my unit doesn't hum.

On surge protectors - - (or conditioners or whatever) there is a long thread in the RPTV area (I guess some go UPS to shut down the bulb or something) which discusses different types. Its a frequently discussed topic all over the board.

That said, I have a surge protector, and I thinking of adding a UPS (if I spot a deal) due to 'the binaura needing to be reset after power outages' issue that I have.

mczolton

01-20-06, 09:01 AM

My Binaura sub doesn't hum. I am using a Monster MP HT800 surge protector with my Binaura. Nothing fancy. I do have a PureAV power conditioner on my other setup. The benefit is debatable as dc_pilgrim suggested. I wouldn't plug my equipment directly into the wall outlet though.

Thanks,
Mark

Ximori

01-22-06, 11:38 AM

grinchy

01-22-06, 01:45 PM

Got a mainstage, and I'm keeping it.

I had a nice budget amp with largish Yamaha bookshelfs and a mid-range ($100 in 1999) center channel. However, speaker positioning in my room was severely compromised.

The mainstage sounded the same/better for dialogue and movie sounds. It is deficient for stereo music listening. The "surround" mode provides some space, but lots of DSP artifacts. The "non-surround" mode is clearer, but very point-source. It's not bad, and I'm no audiophile (I live in a apt. - no real volume here, either)

The timber of the mainstage is cold, but I wouldn't call it harsh. My 5.1 system was warmer.

I did the comparisons without the sub turned on.

I packed up the 150 feet of speaker wire, 5 speakers, and amp (which make a stack the size of 5 mainstage cartons, and probably 15 actual units.

Cabling - to solve the whole 36 feet of coax problem to run the digital signal (I have a PJ and preferred short video cable runs), I bought 2 12 ft "shielded" phono cables (m-f) from Radio Shack. At $3.99 each, I was willing to risk problems. Combined these with a 12 ft sub cable I had, and no problems so far with hums, feedback, clicks, etc.

Using my sub greatly improves the mainstage, though the mainstage sub level adj. is problematic. To use the full range of the mainstage, the level adj needs to be turned quite high. This means the level on my sub is quite low (nearly to min). I may decide that I'd rather have the sub cover those freqs. Still experimenting.

HOOKUP ALERT: Do use the right channel of the mainstage sub output for driving your sub. The left channel has content, but it is severly limited. I didn't read the instructions too carefully, and missed this point.

Final conclusion - sounds about the same except for music. Lots smaller. Removes a bunch of speakers from my room. WAF off the charts (no amps, no sources, no speakers, 5 button remote, etc). Easy to setup and easy to use.

"Fixed" the green LED problem with blacked out masking tape cut to 1/4" square size. Can't see the light, can't see the tape.

I got a refurb from soundmatters and it looks and sounds perfect. YMMV.

Bert

01-23-06, 02:51 AM

I ordered the Niro Pro II and Movie mouse today. I expect some differences from the Reference b/c of the Pro II's wider body. And I'm not sure why the CNET review gave it a higher score than the Reference either.

I'm pretty sure you would have been happy with either one. I've got the Reference and love it. Although I never test drove the Pro II, my suspicion is that NIRO designed the Pro II for aesthetics, the Reference for audiophiles. They've got a forum on their site where the system's designer, Niro Nakamichi, writes personal replies to any questions, and that's the drift I got from his comments. In reality, I'm guessing there's not a whole lot of difference between the two.

I ordered the Movie Mouse too, even though I thought it might be a gimmck, but the thing really works. You're going to find it handy for late nights; I usually take mine out and put it on my coffee table right in front of me.

LCD

01-23-06, 11:03 AM

thanks dave for compiling the list of products for this thread, it was a big help for research purposes! thanks also to ximori, who's thoughts on niro helped steer me in that direction. i've also jumped on the niro bandwagon. i ordered a reference system that should be arriving this week. i'm going to be quite disappointed if my socks don't get knocked off as the best speakers i have ever owned previous to this is a pair of klipsch gmx a2.1s.

anyone know why the niro prices have been going up with each successive generation even though they've been removing features (dvd player, radio) from the systems? i'd like to think it's because the newer products are that more sophisticated sonically, but that could be wishful thinking.

i wish there was a good way to determine the "value" of each one of these one box 5.1 solutions. for example, i would not expect the zvox to outperform the niro (at least, i hope it doesn't!), but it would be nice to know if the niro was really worth five times the amount of the zvox in terms of sound quality.

i've enjoyed this thread a great deal. thanks guys!

grinchy

01-23-06, 12:04 PM

More Mainstage comments.

Listened to a Tracy Chapman album (I think the fast car album) last night. I'm not a fan, but put it in once a year or so. Anyway, track 1 has this persistent treble sound in the right channel. The mainstage actually imaged this sound! Spatially it was up and far, far right (like five, six feet from the speaker location). Imaging occured in both surround and "non-surround" mode.

I have the mainstage on a carpeted floor (we watch a 7.5 x 15 feet of a wall as our "screen"), and decided to angle it less dramatically (had it full tilt up, changed to half tilt). I think this allowed for better dispersion at the listening location, I suspect that we were literally "under" the bubble. Anyway, its growing on me for music.

I've spent some more time on the sub-level setting. I listened to some male voice tracks, and (starting from "off") increased the sub level control on the mainstage until it reproduced all of the voice. I wanted to get as much of the voice from the mainstage as possible, because it is too easy to localize when coming from the subwoofer. Then I moved to the sub and increased it's crossover until it started to also reproduce the voice, then backed off a little. I'm sure more tweaking will occur, but at least I now have some latitude with my sub's level control - before it was between about 0 and 1.5 on the level. Now I can get up to about 4 before it becomes overpowering.

We watched some silly art film last night, all dialogue with these strong "mood setting" musical elements between scenes - random very low beats and orchestral stuff. Mainstage did really well on both elements, and integrated nice and transparently with my sub when needed.

Chuck Smith

01-23-06, 01:06 PM

Anyone had any experience with the Sony DAV-X1? I found it locally for around $500, and was thing about going that route.

dc_pilgrim

01-23-06, 06:37 PM

LCD - no problem for the list. Let us know how the Niro treats you.

Chuck. There is a link in post #3 to a thread. Many folks feel that Sony isn't a good choice for audio (especially at the $1k MSRP). Its primary point of interest compared to others seems to be its HDMI port.

soundmax

01-23-06, 10:12 PM

My Binaura has made it to the local post office down the street. Hoping I can pick it up tomorrow.

PS:

Chuck Smith,

I have had the Sony HT-DDW740 5.1 system for a few years now. It has 600 watts of power including the powered sub woofer (100 watts). I'm no expert audiophile but I can tell you the system sounds incredible to my ears. I use it exclusively for DVDs. Tried a CD once but it didn't sound as good as a dedicated stereo system.

Ximori

01-24-06, 12:05 AM

grinchy, is it mainstage or mainstage HD?

Bert, I remember reading in that forum awhile back where Niro mentioned that there was hardly any difference between the Ref and Pro II. And that it was only for aesthetic reason. Although one article review (and I forgot which) did mention that he slightly preferred the sound of the Pro II. I'm guessing surround improvement might have to do with the wider body b/c the L and R channel are more distal. Anyhow, I agree either one will sound great and any slight differences should really be less of an issue. Btw, thanks - your post #40 is what propelled me to go for the Niro system.

LCD, you won't believe your ears. ;) Try using digital coax for listening. And don't forget to toggle between the six main buttons in the remote - bass, treble, dialog, subwoofer, center, and surround to find your own proper settings. I know $1K is a lot of money, so I'd be interested to know from you if the whole package warrants the price. glad that they have a nice 30 day return policy with no restocking fee.

grinchy

01-24-06, 11:44 AM

Xmori - It is a Mainstage. The older model. I like the new feature set on the Mainstage HD better (more power, reversible channels for use as a surround, can control it without the remote), but it was 2x the cost of my Mainstage refurb. I used that money to buy 1/2 a new subwoofer. Since I live in an apt I didn't see the need for more power.
I agree with your comment on "surround", I don't hear any there, but with the speaker properly positioned, there is a good wide, spacious soundstage that is fine for movies and music.

It's funny, because I was a super early adopter of Dolby Pro-Logic. I actually had a stand-alone Kenwood amp that I used with my old old school JVC receiver. The Kenwood provided a whopping 50W Center and 25W to each surround (output line level for the JVC to run the fronts). Used the pristine signal from a Hi-Fi VCR. This was in 1993. It was all about the surround.

But honestly, I got so tired of the speakers everywhere. I've always lived in an apt. and trying to figure a way to run the wires, and set the speakers on something in every new apt without drilling holes in the walls was getting really old. Not to mention moving the darn things (I had a full amplifier with 4 largish bookshelfs and a real center channel). The Mainstage is like a cathartic release. It makes acceptable sound, it's tiny, it's self-powered. And in a typical installation (non-PJ), it should be a three wire hookup (sub, signal, power).

FWIW, I love the idea of the Niro, but dropping a grand was out of the Q.

soundmax

01-24-06, 10:33 PM

mczolton

01-25-06, 09:26 AM

dc_pilgrim and/or mczolton,

Just got the Binaura set up and tested for a few minutes with Master and Commander. So far sounds great. The build quality is quite solid and the set up literally taking a few minutes.

Since you have more experience with the system, can you tell me if you have made volume adjustments to the sub and centre channel? I realize these adjustments are very subjective but just the same I'm curious.

Thanks

Depending on where you place your sub, you may need to make adjustments. My sub is behind my display, in a corner. For DD sources, I set the sub to +1 (center at 0). For Binaura Vocal I set the sub to -5. I used an SPL meter and a calibration DVD to balance the level of the sub with respect to the main speaker unit.

Mark

sv_chamelea

01-25-06, 04:24 PM

Sure do appreciate all the valuable experience posted here. Personal comparisons between different audio manufacturers - amazingly valuable!

My viewing room is 15' square, 10' sloped volume ceiling, with an openly adjacent 8' dining area. It's was a hassle to mount and wire my old Lifestyle 12 Bose, which went silent (amp/sub problem) anyhow before I embedded wiring. I've reached a tentative conclusion the Binaura will provide a perfectly acceptable alternative for me.

But the units are few & far between. Is this a new company still lacking in distribution? ... and what is a reasonable street price?

soundmax

01-25-06, 09:53 PM

mczolton,

Thanks for the reply. I'll tweak mine over the next few days. I have not hooked up the TV though at this point. Sticking to DVD for now.

sv_chamelea,

I agree, excellent posts. They helped in my decision.

The website http://www.binaura.com/index2.htm says they were incorporated in 2002. I got mine from Best Buy $399 $CDN on sale from the $599 regular price. Web special only. I did find an electronics store that had them in stock so I was able to see and touch the unit in person. This also helped with my decision as I could see that it had a sturdy build quality. I also saw a unit for sale on eBay but I was/am a little concerned about warranty and recourse should the unit become defective. This is why I went with a Best Buy type company. Hope this helps.

dc_pilgrim

01-25-06, 10:11 PM

Some guy sells them on e-bay for a bit more than $300 shipped. I think Target.com has them for MSRP (they often have 10% off coupons lately too). BB.com (USA) used to carry them, and Mark and I got them on their "Wednesday" sale for $280 shipped with tax (or at least thats what I paid). I was tenative buying, and appreciated having the return policy.

I think the company has an agreement with some other odd named distribution company too (for MSRP).

Soundmax - - I am kind of a basic user with this thing. Its jammed behind furniture, and our power goes out pretty often. So I just run it as it turns on, and adjust by ear while I watch, depending what I watch. I have the SPL meter and AVIA, but haven't bothered with it. I usually am bumping up the center channel since I want to emphasis hearing the dialog. I bump the sub on the rare times I am watching an action movie and I am not worried about waking the baby. Doesn't happen very often.

dc_pilgrim

01-25-06, 10:12 PM

Oh, I think they are a CA company, too - - so maybe you can contact them directly and try to get them to sell you one.

LCD

01-25-06, 10:13 PM

the niro reference and movie mouse i ordered were supposed to arrive today. childishly, i actually took the day off waiting for them which just mad me angrier. the movie mouse arrived, but UPS left it on my doorstep without ringing the doorbell. i found it out there two hours after they had dropped it off. the reference did not arrive. of course when i called them up they told me the driver had made an attempt to deliver, which was a lie because i didn't leave the house all day. no yellow sticker was left on the door.

ANYway. the movie mouse is a lot bigger than i thought it would be. it also bothers me a little bit that it is made in china. for something so expensive i was hoping for another manufacturing destination. the casing is made of relatively heavy plastic with metal grilles over the drivers. it definitely doesn't feel like something one would pay $229 (manufacturer direct price) for. will post a full review of the movie mouse and the reference, if i ever receive it!

soundmax

01-26-06, 09:10 PM

Yes they are a CA company, this was taken from there site for sales and marketing:

23 Oak Road, Santa Cruz , CA 95060
Tel: 831-426-4244

LCD

01-27-06, 12:54 AM

Dave, Ximori and Forum members,

If you couldn't tell I was anal before this post, you'll know for sure by the end of the first paragraph! I'm completely new at review writing, so please forgive my rambling and lack of technical knowledge.

The Movie Mouse box came in a larger box filled with styrofoam peanuts. Unfortunately, they put the Mouse box on the bottom of the box full of peanuts, so the shock absorption at the base was non-existent. The Mouse unit seems to be a sturdy thing and appears none the worse for wear. Inside the Mouse box are two styrofoam holders keeping it in place. It was wrapped in a thin foam bag. Two pieces of tape are supposed to hold the bag shut tightly. One piece of tape was already half way rolled off and not keeping the bag shut. There are a couple of scuff marks on the shell of the Mouse that I was able remove with a bit of effort and a damp towel. There is a miniscule chip in the base. This is making me paranoid that I have received a unit that was returned by someone else.

The Reference unit came in a large box stamped "Made in China" with four separate boxes inside of it. The instructions and warranty came in a ziploc bag thrown on top. The instruction booklet had a big crease diagonally down the front page. For a $1k piece of hardware the presentation so far left a lot to be desired. One of the boxes was empty, used just as a placeholder for the rest. The amplifier, subwoofer and speaker unit each had their own separate box. Each cable for each unit cannot be removed and was bound up using saran wrap. As soon as I took the subwoofer out of its styrofoam holders and plastic bag, the cloth grille fell off. I tried to put it back on the driver only to see that two of the plastic pegs had broken and were now stuck inside their respective holes on the rim of the woofer driver. Inauspicious.

The remote uses 3 AAA batteries which are included. It is made in Korea. There is a sticker that is laid out over the main button grid that has the button names labelled on it. The sticker has a faint grey slash down the middle that I don't think is supposed to be there. There are also two areas on the the side where the sticker was not laid down entirely flat and now bubbles away from the remote.

The subwoofer looks very nice but feels extremely light for its size. It is 11.7(W) x 12.9(H) x 11.7(D) in. My GMX A2.1 woofer is about 10x10x16 and seems to weigh much more.

The speaker unit is fairly heavy and has a solid plastic shell. It feels substantial. There is some discoloration of the plastic where the cable meets the unit. The plastic grilles covering the drivers feel somewhat cheap.

The amplifier has a very good fit and finish. It is the only part of the package that looks AND feels expensive.

The Reference is extremely easy to hook up. Plug in the amp, plug the subwoofer and speakers into the amp, plug your optical cable in one of the slots and you're all set. I had it hooked up to an Xbox with the optical out (sorry Ximori, no coaxial option!).

I haven't had much time to test the audio capabilities of the unit yet. I listened to a couple of CDs (Getz/Gilberto, Diana Krall, Cowboy Junkies). The Reference sounded a lot better than my GMXs. The soundstage was much wider, the voices and instruments much more prominent and distinct from each other. I also played some Halo 2 and DOA Ultimate. The sound was incredible, although I did notice some distortion (clipping?) with certain female voices (Lei-fang, Cortana). It almost seemed like the microphone got too close to the actor's mouth and there was some feedback or something. I put some headphones on to see if I could duplicate the feedback, but could not. I noticed more surround effects with the games than with the movies I tested out.

I watched a little bit of Lost in Translation. The sound of water splashing seems to be extremely sibilant in all the movies I watched. The scenes when Bill Murray and Scarlett Johansson meet in the bar had the best surround effects. I felt as if I was there in the bar with them. The clink of glasses and tinkle of utensils was very apparent all around. I followed that up with The Return of the King. The best effect I recall from my time with the film was when a nazgul carrying the Witch King flew across the screen. Most of the movie sounds remained in front of me however. As every reviewer of the Reference has stated, at no time did I really hear any sounds behind me or even directly to my sides.

The subwoofer is many times better than my GMX sub. It blends in very well with the speakers and is truly multidirectional. I believe that indicates that the full range speaker unit has a fairly low crossover. With my GMXs, the satellites don't go very low so I can actually pinpoint the sound coming from the sub.

The Movie Mouse works as advertised, but upon initial testing I can't really recommend the purchase. To get a good effect from it, the volume has to be fairly loud. I'm not sure in what situations I would want to use it over the main speaker unit. I purchased it because I have a two-year old son sleeping upstairs at night.

To sum up, the Reference is the best sounding piece of audio gear I have ever owned. In both movies and music I noticed many nuances in the audio that I was not able to discern with my old setup. However, the surround effects were a bit underwhelming, but maybe my expectations were too high. I have no idea what a real 5.1 setup sounds like. The stereo performance is also the best I have ever heard, but at no time did I ever feel like the performances were truly "real". The fit and finish of the components is somewhat disappointing and, again, I am bothered by the fact that this $1k+ piece of gear is entirely made in China. It may be an unfair bias on my part. Hopefully I will get in some more time with the unit over the weekend. I'll post some more thoughts later.

In the meantime, I wouldn't mind hearing a little bit more from some of you other Niro owners about your units. I'm feeling a little nervous about my purchase. Is it possible that the Reference is too powerful for the room I have it in? The living room is half of a 10'(H) by 11'(W) by 26'(L) space with the other half as a dining room. The Niro is along the 25' wall so it sits about 8 feet from my viewing area. Would the 600 actually sound better in my space? What are the consequences of too much power in too small a space?

grinchy

01-27-06, 04:19 PM

Seems like if it's too powerful you can turn the volume down. . . Power is really good to highlight dynamic elements, I don't use my equipment at max (or even high volume). But then again, Mainstage original is only rated at 95 db, it isn't "powerful".

Thanks for the thorough review. You have to believe your ears, and it "sounds" like the unit sounds expensive.

dc_pilgrim

01-27-06, 05:37 PM

MoltenLava

01-29-06, 07:26 PM

I was in the market for a single speaker HTIB system. I've considered Soundmatter, Binaura, Yamaha YSP, and Niro. Decided on Niro, as I liked the Nakamichi history, it's got five discrete speakers, and "more expensive must be better" reasoning.

I thought the sound quality was a-OK. Nothing spectacular, but had good frequency range, clear dialog, and decent bass.

Getting good surround sound was tricky. Contrary to what you might think, the placement of the speaker is VERY important. If the speaker is placed below your ear, you won't hear any, or very little surround effect. It must be place at or above your ear level. The distance from the speaker was also a factor in my experience. At around 3-5 feet from the speaker, you can hear sound seemingly coming from far left and far right, off the screen and the speaker. If you sit further out, the effect diminishes. I never heard sound coming from the behind at any distance.

From my sitting distance, about 10ft away from the screen, I really could not hear much improvement over the display's built in speaker in virtual surround mode. It may sound a little funny, but I am more and more impressed by the built in speaker on my Sony XBR PDP. It would be a waste to turn off the TV speaker after my HT project is complete.

After about a week of tinkering, I have returned the Niro. Return process was very easy and straightforward, no questions asked.

Now I am back looking at the receiver + dedicated surround speaker system. I haven't completely given up on the one speaker solution, as I am considering Mirage UNI-Theater speaker with LCR in one cabinet design. ;) I'll still have to figure out where to place the surround speakers.

MoltenLava

01-29-06, 07:55 PM

renglade

01-30-06, 12:28 PM

I have been trying out the new Mainstage HD (no separate sub) for two weeks now. I have it placed it on top of a 34XBR960 in one corner of a small 10x12 room with a 7 1/2 foot ceiling. Drawing a diagonal from the XBR corner to the opposite corner and looking back toward the TV, there are two seating areas - a couch to the right of the diagonal that sits along a 10 foot wall, and a recliner to the left that is in the center of a 12 foot wall. The Mainstage has a miniplug output that can be used to feed the rear channels of Dolby Digital 5.1 to a set of powered speakers, and I have placed one satellite behind the recliner and another behind the right portion of the couch, both on the floor and pointing upward.

The ability to get actual surround is probably the biggest asset of this setup, and the most realistic effect is experienced by someone seated on the left side of the couch, nearest the diagonal. I have noticed, however, that most supposedly 5.1 programming actually contains little if any surround material, the exceptions being certain football games and action movies.

The biggest drawback of the Mainstage, IMO, is poor tonal balance at the (relatively low) volume levels that are optimal for this small listening environment. Even with the bass adjustment at its minimum level (no indicator, by the way), the treble frequencies are overwhelmed by boomy low tones. The balance improves at volumes that are unfortunately too high for comfort. It's almost as if a poorly calibrated loudness compensation scheme is being implemented. One solution that I have hit upon is to mix the sound from the 960's internal speakers (more treble) with that from the Mainstage, and appropriately adjust the amplification of the rear channels (separate control). This seems to work ok, but in the end a return of this $350 item may be in order.

LCD

01-30-06, 03:05 PM

LCD -

Appreciate the review. Funny, I spent a bunch of time talking about the packaging in my amatuer review. Of course, my perspective was from the opposite end since I found the Binaura well packaged. The Binaura didn't do much for a rear soundstage either. I think the Yamaha is the only one who can manage that bit of wizardry (in the right room). Sounds like the Niro is pretty impressive for what it does though.

Reading your review, I guess the magic question is determining value for money. I think Ximori and Mark are the only ones to evaluate these products on a comparative basis.

Keep us posted if your thoughts evolve.

I've been intensively, if not obssessively (just ask my wife!) evaluating the system since it has arrived. Unfortunately, with my duties at work and as a father, I haven't been able to devote large chunks of time to this engaging pursuit. It has taught me quite a bit about critical listening. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing! Any tips, corrections or comments from the audiophiles here regarding review techniques or vocabulary are appreciated! I don't think I was entirely fair with the system when it arrived. I was hoping to be knocked off my feet merely by plugging it in. I wanted to hear sounds from the far left and right of me with every source I fed the system even if that was not the intent of the original recording. With the passage of time I have really begun to appreciate the finer nuances of the system. I still have reservations, but it really is a fine bit of technology. I'm still not sure whether or not it is worth the price, which will determine whether or not I send it back.

I sent an email to Niro1.com regarding the cosmetic problems I've had with the device (broken subwoofer grille, remote control label peeling, discoloration on the back of the main speaker unit). They were prompt and courteous in their response. I received a phone call the next day. They were quite willing to send me a replacement subwoofer and I believe they are willing to replace the remote. I was told that the discoloration along the seams in the cable recess is an unavoidable part of the manufacturing process. Can any other Reference owners confirm that?

MOVIE MOUSE

I am far more impressed with the Movie Mouse now that I've had a bit more time with it. When I first used it, I didn't fiddle around with the subwoofer or bass settings at all. What I discovered was that to truly work the Mouse's magic, the bass and woofer settings had to be increased to compensate for the smaller drivers. Dialogue still lacked substance, but the sound environment was quite remarkable. In most cases the surround effects are superior to that of the main unit because the Mouse can be placed precisely where you want it to go. Placing it on the floor a foot or two from my feet gave the sounds from the Mouse more presence. Placing the unit on my lap close to my knees created a more immersive surround field at the cost of tinnier dialogue. For whatever reason, video game sources provided a much greater surround feeling than movie sources. The Movie Mouse plug is a very flimsy thing with delicate plastic latches which you are well advised to leave plugged into the amplifier.

MAIN SPEAKER

Listening to the Niro has been quite a revelation. Poor sources immediately betray themselves as such. Superior recordings are quite spectacular. Clarity and element (vocals, instruments) distinctions are superb. The Niro has many different sets of algorithms for two-channel listening. "Normal" is the original system configuration. It works pretty well. Voices are prominent and centered, although the soundstage seems somewhat reduced. "New Ver" provides a slightly broader soundstage at the expense of some "center" channel focus. There are a handful of Pro Logic algorithms as well. I didn't find them to be that useful. If you are in the mood for a particular artificial effect some of them will fit the bill. They either bring the vocals up front and center at the expense of completely collapsing the soundstage or they give the recording an broad echo-y feel where no individual elements feel anchored in space.

When I first played 'Revenge of the Sith' on the unit I was dismayed to hear extremely rare, but noticeable distortion in some words spoken by the actors (for the obssessive-compulsive out there, go to Chapter 7 and listen to Obi-Wan say the word "I'm" once Anakin leaves the ship. It breaks up a bit). Being worried that it was a fault of the Niro, I subsequently ran two copies of the DVD on three separate DVD players and four separate speaker systems. So, now I know DVDs aren't perfect. :P While I haven't had the chance to watch an entire movie or listen to an entire CD on the system in one sitting, I can say that no matter how loud I've turned the system up (I've listened to it at close to 40 and it maxes out at 60), the sound quality has never gotten harsh or uncomfortable to listen to. The subwoofer is excellent until you go out of its useful range. I'm not sure how to articulate that thought more effectively. With it's small size and unusually light weight I'm not surprised however.

Evaluating the system's surround capabilities continues to be a little confusing for me. Sometimes, but less often than I would like, there are moments of genuine excitement when I actually feel something in the room with me. Most of the time, the "surround" sound is forward room-filling but difficult to localize.

MoltenLava, thanks for your input! I'm going to try sitting closer to the unit, which would be more comfortable for me anyway, since my TV isn't very large. I was trying to maintain an 8-foot distance because the documentation with the unit stated optimal listening distances of 6.5-10 feet.

In deciding whether or not to return the system, I think my biggest problem is that I have no idea what a real 5.1 system sounds like. If I had a point of comparison, my decision would be much easier. If I felt the Niro sounded closer to a 2.1 system than a 5.1 I would return it and invest in some bookshelf speakers, a proper sub and a decent amp for $1000. If the Niro sounded closer to the 5.1 I'd keep it.

One other concern that I have is the fact that the system (not to beat a dead horse) is entirely made in China. Unless there have been massive commercial/manufacturing changes that I am unaware of, the reason people invest in factories in China is to build stuff cheaply (paying very little for labor). Fairly or not, that has led to a reputation for cheap, unsophisticated goods. The Niro warranty is 3 years on the speaker and 1 year on the electronics. I have not done extensive research on the competition, but I have seen warranties as long as 10 years on competing products.

soundmax

01-30-06, 09:24 PM

LCD,

Very detailed reviews, great job!

I'm quite happy with the Binaura. My expectation was not so much that I would hear 5.1 sound (although this is what all of these systems are touting) but something between crappy TV speakers and a true 5.1 system. I've only played a few DVD's so far on the new system. I do hear some rear sound, but of course depends on what is playing. Centre channel is clear and you can hear the highs like breaking glass very nicely. The sub does equally well. I can only compare it to my 5.1, so I had slightly lower expectations.

I have a dedicated Sony 5.1 - 600 watt system and I would challenge any 2 speaker system to provide the same soundstage. I don't think it's possible. With a 5.1 or higher, one is truly immersed in surround sound. Why don't you pop in to your local Best Buy or Circuit City or whatever and have them demonstrate a true 5.1.

dc_pilgrim

01-30-06, 10:44 PM

Ximori

01-31-06, 04:12 PM

Ximori

01-31-06, 04:23 PM

By the way this was for Niro 600 in a large room of size 16 x 32 with 14' vaulted ceiling. The size of listening area is about 16 x 16. I didn't have any problem with shortage of power, but the volume never exceeded a moderate level.

You must have relied on the their site for room space requirements but I'm not quite sure the Niro 600 is the proper choice for such a large room. The specs in the Reference and Pro II are much larger though so I presume there will be substantial differences in phasing and coherency, don’t you think?

My search for that one speaker has been fulfilled by the Niro system. While the Yamaha remains to have the best surrounds it falls a tad short in sound quality, not up to Niro par level. Although Yamaha seem to be in the right direction w/ pushing for this type of technology. Niro should watch out once Yamaha improve the sound. I personally think Niro should, at least, try implementing dual speakers support for their next software upgrade. The Binaura also sounds like a very good competitor to test drive but it only consists 3 drivers of full amplification, compared to Niro’s 5, and with much less horsepower. If I consider then, it’ll be in competition with the Niro 600 at the same price level.

Btw, I was not all that impressed with the movie mouse. I guess I was expecting dialogues to sound bigger, like in the movies. Uh ok, I forgot…that’s why it’s called movie mouse. :rolleyes:

Ximori

01-31-06, 04:35 PM

With my Binaura, and with the Cambridge offering that I heard in a store, I stand by my assessment that it is closer to a 3.1 experience. I can distinctly track a sound from the right side to the left (or vice-versa) but there isn't much from the rear. Maybe I am sittting too far away (7-10 feet) or its the corner set up.

I can distinctly track left and right surrounds with my Niro but a lot of these one speaker solutions strictly rely on room acoustic, placement, listening distance, effective reference material, and so on. That’s why I can never come up to one single and final conclusion b/c we all have different settings…and EARS!!! ;)

I’ve been extremely busy and have not had time to fully preview the Pro II. I received it on Thursday but only spent like an hour listening last night. Man, I’m in the wrong business (coffee). :)

LCD

02-01-06, 11:54 AM

LCD, nice review. I don’t recall having any cosmetic issue w/ the Reference when I had it a couple of months ago. Maybe they gave you my returned unit :eek: :D I’ll admit though that my wife didn’t like the looks of the Reference either. But I thought, otherwise, and found the looks quite acceptable.

When listening I toggle more on bass and lessen the treble to balance off into more natural dialogues. I also adjust surround mode to max level. Niro’s selling point is the power and capability of revealing all the nuances from the source and making them more pronounced.

I once questioned the $1K tag. That was partly the reason for returning the system and opting instead for the release of the Mainstage. But having now heard most of them below that price tag, there was no contest in sound quality compared to Niro’s. I’d rather spend twice the price for a system I know will enjoy rather than half the price for one considered just acceptable. Unfortunately, one speaker won’t cut in achieving the sense of full 5.1 surround. If you can deal with the installation of 5 speakers in your room – then this would be really the way to go. Now supposing I have to stick close to the $500 budget then probably I might consider a pair of the new Classic NHT speakers, an inexpensive but good subwoofer, and use plasmatoad’s info http://www.xitel.com/product_soundaround.htm (post #85) to create, at least, a 2.1. Unfortunately, I share grinchy’s sentiment of running wires across the room so looking for the best 'plug and play' one speaker solution seem the right and only choice for my particular room.

Btw, thanks for mentioning Lost in Translation – I'm running out of some good reference DVDs. I remember this one as a good sample…and good movie to watch as well. Also, is it Stan Getz and Astrud Gilberto? Haven’t listened to their music in a long time.

hi ximori,

surprisingly, 'lost in translation' is one of the dvds i've enjoyed most with the system. the quiet ambience (sounds of the city, the bar, the traffic, etc.) of most of the scenes is very immersive with the niro. on the other side of the spectrum, i knew the audio for the scarface (with al pacino) dvd was bad, but the niro truly reveals every ugly blemish. scarface sounded better on my old setup.

getz/gilberto is the name of the album, the performers are stan getz, joao gilberto, astrud gilberto and antonio carlos jobim. the album sounds incredible on the niro.

i haven't had a problem with the aesthetic styling of the niro, i've had a problem with the level of polish. for a $1090 piece of hardware i was expecting impeccable fit and finish. the decal peeling off of the remote just makes it seem really cheap. the insignificant physical weight of the sub (not that i know anything about subwoofer construction, maybe heavier isn't necessarily better?) and the blemishes on the back of the main speaker just make me wonder about the quality control the system was subjected to and its eventual longevity.

i am definitely not expecting "true" 5.1 sound from the niro. i realize that because i don't want speakers and wires all over the room, certain sonic compromises must be made. right now, i think that if the system had cost me $500-$600 there is no question i would keep it and not think twice about the price. at $1090 i'm on shaky ground. i appreciate the conversation we're having about the systems. please let us know how the pro II compares to the reference when you've had enough time with it!

i was considering the yamaha and kef systems as well, but from what i've read they rely on bouncing sound off of walls while the niro supposedly does not. my living room makes sound reflecting systems an impossibility. i thought about the denon, but the lack of a dvd player in the niro was actually a selling point for me. i already have a dvd player and i don't have a hd display, so i didn't feel like paying for something i wouldn't get full use out of. this is assuming of course, that the extra cost of the niro was put into maximizing its sonic capabilities.

again, i am really enjoying my time with the system, i just haven't decided whether or not i'm happy with the price.

by the way, anyone have any idea how the niro creates a stereo sound field with the l/r channels facing out 90 degrees from the listener? it makes absolutely no sense to me when i look at it!

soundmax - i went to best buy yesterday to try and test out some 5.1s. it didn't work out too well. it's too loud in there and they don't have a decent space for listening. i've got to find another option! definitely on my to do list before my 30-day niro trial is up. wish i knew someone with a 5.1 setup.

grinchy

02-01-06, 07:02 PM

Renglade - I have the Mainstage non HD and the bass is not boomy. Wonder if it's the unit? In fact, if I dial mine down all the way it sounds very thin. It could well be that the HD with the 2x amp power of the Mainstage might be unbalanced.

Where does the signal originate? Perhaps the output you are using has the "bass" control already turned up?

renglade

02-02-06, 11:33 AM

Grinchy,

In my post of 1/30, the observation of over-emphasized bass was really a complaint about lack of treble at the low volume levels that I was using in my rather small room (The Mainstage doesn't have a visual volume indicator, but if I turn it off and use the internal TV speakers instead, the volume level of the Sony for comfortable listening is about 11 out of 63). Also, the bass control on the HD is operated via the remote and has a limited range - not too high and not too low. The original Mainstage that you own has the base control on the speaker unit, and it can apparently be turned all the way down to zero. I noticed the tonal "imbalance" on a variety of sources - OTA, cable, DVD - and under various conditions - surround on or off, unit above the TV or below or on a side table away from the corner. In the end, the overriding factor seems to be volume level -higher values allow the treble to "breathe". It also helps to have the speaker angled towards the listener's head.

Interestingly enough, in talking with the folks at Soundmatters, it seems that most complaints about the new model have been the opposite of mine - treble too high and/or harsh, and bass too low. No info about volume effects.

I still have hope for this unit, and I think that I could adjust to a slightly higher volume level in order to get the benefits of surround sound (when it is offered!) and quality reproduction. The real problem is my wife and visitors! Perhaps two modes of operation are required - Mainstage sound for me alone, and TV speakers and reduced volume for others.

DTH938

02-03-06, 08:24 AM

In my quest to find a virtual home theater I’ve come across this web site and specifically this post. It’s full of great input, and I would like to thank everyone who has added to it. Because of the room it’s going in, I think I have narrowed it down to a Niro system. Right now I’m leaning toward the Niro 600. Has anyone listened to both it and the higher end models. Is the Reference or the 1.1Pro worth the extra money? Thanks for any input.

grinchy

02-03-06, 05:57 PM

Renglade, I didn't know that the HD has the handy "bass control" knob removed, that's a bummer, of course it makes sense, as they've gone to multifunction buttons on the unit front.

Still, if soundmatters finds your experience unusual, you might push for a new unit. And it would give you a chance to try out the two unit surround while you have two on hand.

My mainstage was harsh for the first 30 hours (see first review, above), but now the sound is neutral.

TCB

02-04-06, 03:47 PM

I am actually going to be fiddling with my unit tonight (or thursday), I'll try remember to measure it, and take a picture.

Oh, man! What you do at home is your business, but please don't post the picture here! :eek: :D

dc_pilgrim

02-04-06, 04:44 PM

Oh, man! What you do at home is your business, but please don't post the picture here! :eek: :D

You weren't curious on some level when it measured out to be 6 feet long?

TCB

02-04-06, 06:24 PM

Ugh, no.
:)

grinchy

02-06-06, 01:34 PM

I sold my five HT speakers and Amp to some lucky sole on Craigslist yesterday. $300 in good 2000 money (and I searched high and low for bargains back then) for $70. I hated to part most with the DTS/DD Sherwood 6095R Amp, but no component/hdmi switching and 60 wpc isn't going to cut it in today's world.
But hey, progress is less, not more, isn't that what they say?
So now I'm commited to the 1.1 (MAINstage and Sony wx-700 sub).

I am glad to be rid of the large stack of speakers cluttering up the second bedroom.

TCB

02-06-06, 06:18 PM

grinchy,
I'm looking for a 2.1 or, perhaps, 1.1 setup. Can you tell me more about your decision? I have auditioned the Denon S-301 and like it. I could get one for a little more than $1000.

grinchy

02-07-06, 01:30 AM

Well, that Denon looks very nice. A bit beyond my chosen budget. It's in the same price range as the well reviewed Niro products (see Ximori's extensive comparison).

I ended up with 1.1 because my PJ multipurpose room has a fireplace on one wall and a huge long window on the other. No good place to mount speakers, and its an apt. anyway. I'm tired of wires and all the rest, too. Seems like we get so much stuff, sometimes it's good to divest a little.

My previous setup was not high budget or anything, though it sounded fine. So I had little audio superiority to lose.

I got a refurb MAINstage, mostly because it had two digital inputs (zvox out), and I didn't need the volume of the HD (though I really think the HD channel switching for surround is awesome, easy to do with a MAINstage via analog, of course, but not possible for digital - that's a very cool feature, for one who decides to upgrade to a 6.1 setup.)

So the A/B with the Mainstage and my existing setup was a wash, mostly, no big difference at the levels I can listen at. They sounded nearly identical, actually. My old system had 2 of the 3 front speakers on the floor (no where else to put them).

It images fine for movies, lots of soundstage for the front. I actually think it does a good job at this. No real rear "surround" effect. Music is less impressive, but certainly clearly reproduced. It isn't "stereo", and from your picture you'll probably miss stereo. Never know 'til you try though.

The Mainstage retails for $249, and the refurb is abit more than 1/2 that.

I spent a lot of time looking for a sub, and had convinced myself that a Rhytmik DIY servo kit was the answer. And I think it still is, but it's $500 (pre-built box) plus build time, and that was too much for me. So I ran across the wx-700 reviews at CC while I was checking out a flat sub there (was looking for a sub-stage clone), and they were so positive I thought I'd go listen to it. So I did, and it was good. It stood out like a sore thumb in the big old listening room - deep, clean, clear, just like a sealed sub (which it is). No chuffing or booming. And at $225 an irrestible price. My tone CD says it will do 25hz with the boost on, 30hz without it. That's good enough, and great for the price range. I'm getting well acquainted with my neighbors as a side benefit, too.

So the two do fine together, in 1.1. One digital input cable, one sub-out cable. Both autopower on and off. Sounds good. I'm out about $420 with cables and tax. That's Binaura range, but I think my sub is a bit more sturdy :) Perhaps the Binaura will image better - I think Ximori has tried both.

The Mainstage by itself is a good video sound system, I use it sans sub anytime after 9 pm, and dialog is clear, even at low levels, something my old 5.1 was decidedly not good at. With the sub it is very good for movies, lots of impact, and still easy to hear what is really going on.

I looked and listened to a lot of subs in retail stores, and was going to build a DIY sonotube ported for a while before I found out about Rhythmik sealed, was sure that the teens was for me, but really, in an apt. it's a bad idea. I think the sub makes a huge difference for movies, and would not advise skimping in this area.

TCB

02-07-06, 06:25 AM

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Grinchy.

Anyone else? I found a KEF KIT-100 (2.1 system) for a steal. I might go that direction. Any thoughts?

dc_pilgrim

02-07-06, 09:26 AM

To my mind, based on reading, not listening - the KEF and the Denon are probably the best bets for people who want music in the mix - - mostly because they are 2.1. The Denon is a newer product offering, so its a bit more updated (HDMI and i-pod integration being the the first things to come to mind, not sure if the virtual dolby is an asset or just another way to skin a cat). KEF has a good reputation, moreso in the UK, I believe.

To continue the thought process, for a heavy emphasis on movies, I think in the right room the yamaha ysp-1000/800+sub is the best answer for a rectangular room, and the niro probably the best in a more open layout. After that, you get into the more budget (well less than $1k, sometimes dramatically) driven contenders such as the binaura, mainstage (HD?)+ sub, Zvox(+sub), etc. I think the Polk and maybe the M&K are even smaller niche products for people who want to continue to use an existing receiver.

I would love to see some member commentary on KEF, and maybe those sherwoods. What's the return policy on your "steal"?

TCB

02-07-06, 11:12 AM

The return policy would be 30 days. I honestly don't think I could find a better deal on any system than what I potentially have for this KEF.

grinchy

02-07-06, 12:56 PM

I have to say I'm intrigued the by Yamaha 800. Not $600 intrigued, but maybe when it's available used I'll take a look at it.

clintroberts

02-07-06, 04:59 PM

I purchased the Fullstage HD about a month ago. I have been a long time owner of the regular Mainstage but sold it to get the MainstageHD. I had to try out the sub so I went with the Fullstage. Since I sold my home about a year ago the Mainstage has been my primary listening system. I travel back and forth between Roatan Honduras and TX so I needed something that would fit in the suitcase/carry-on along with my projector. I liked the Mainstage but had difficulty hearing some voices on some DVD's. It was weird how some were fine and other movies were not. Add a movie with accents and forget it, very frustrating. I like the MainstageHD for the dialog control and bass control ON the remote. The HD does seem clearer to me and I think it is worth the upgrade just for the on the remote extra functions. When I sold my house I went from a 7.1 Onix Rocket system to this. Well it can't compare but after 3 minutes I forget and watch the movie. I have in the place I am staying a Denon 3805 and Onix Ref Ones. Honestly like before I forget which one I am watching after a few minutes. If I owned a home and wasn't on the move and didn't want to run speaker wire I think I would for the money just get a 2.1 with receiver setup. But if you are on the move like me the Mainstage packs easily. It's also nice when I take the "theater" to a friend's house. With my Dalite Instatheater, 700AE projector, a 700m laptop, MainstageHD amd a few cables it's a real nice portable system.

TCB

02-07-06, 06:03 PM

I travel back and forth between Roatan Honduras and TX...

Roatan? NICE! I went scuba diving there in the late 70s with my family (I was a teenager). In fact, I'm thinking of taking my wife and children there next Christmas (perhaps staying at Anthony's Key Resort). What brings you to Roatan?

TCB

02-07-06, 08:38 PM

Okay, I just purchased the KEF KIT-100 system. I am unpacking the boxes now. This will be mated with my XBR960N (upstairs tv).

Price? $396!!!

I'm stunned. They were closing out KEF products at Ultimate Electronics. I saw a post online about it and called about the KEF system. I'll post my observations soon...

dc_pilgrim

02-07-06, 10:39 PM

Nice price. Can't see how you'll be able to complain at that price. Could probably make a nice return on e-bay if you cleared the rest of the inventory.

d-v-c

02-08-06, 01:40 AM

I have auditioned the Denon S-301 and like it. I could get one for a little more than $1000.

This is the system I want, but with floor stands and iPod, it becomes way too expensive.

But, at $1000 I would go for it in a second. Can you tell me where to get it?

-------

Does anyone know of any receivers that include Virtual Dolby logic? One of these with a pair of SVS and a sub would be a great option to the Denon.

TCB

02-08-06, 06:23 AM

d-v-c,
The price I managed to get (but passed on) at Best Buy was $1040. There was an open box unit for $1299 and I found an old 30% off coupon for Best Buy open box products on the web. I asked if they would still accept it even though it experied in July 05. They said they would give me an additional 10% off the open box. I countered with 20% and they said they'd go for it.

I am amazed at how great the discounts can be if you are willing to barter a bit. I'm never a jerk about it, either. I just talk to the people.

cathor

02-08-06, 10:41 AM

d-v-c:

The Kenwood VRS7100 has Dolby Virtual Speaker (+Dolby Headphone). I use it with a couple of Omnisats and an Omni S8 subwoofer. I've also used it with Axiom M22ti's and Axiom M3ti's + a SVS 25-31 CS+ sub. For output the SVS can't be beat, but the S8 is fine for my purposes (bedroom system). Although I really like the Axiom's I prefer the Omnisat's for HT - especially when combined with Dolby Virtual Speaker.

I also own the Zvox, and Dolby Virtual Speaker with the Omni's is definitely a significant step up.

A 2.1 setup with Omnisats, S8 subwoofer and the VRS7100 can be found for less than $700 - I think this is a better HT system than the 301.

If size and cost is no issue, exchanging the S8 with a SVS, Omni S12 or Hsu STF/VTF 2 will give you a fantastic 2.1 set-up for less than $1,000

LCD

02-10-06, 10:41 PM

well, the niro reference had to go back. mostly because i got laid off this week, but also because of the build quality. still, i was sad to see it go. my wife encouraged me to keep it if i liked it, so i must thank her for that. i can't say that i'm entirely pleased with the 30-day "free" trial, since it cost me almost $100 in shipping charges.

it is possible that i just somehow received a lemon, but with multiple components having minor issues, i'm not so sure. by the time i sent it back this was the list of damages, most of which were apparent when i received the unit:

main speaker unit - discolored plastic finish in the cable recess area (rear of unit)
movie mouse - small chip in the base, one of the black plastic feet fell off (cheap glue)
remote - peeling button label
subwoofer - damaged grille (could no longer be mounted on the driver frame), large piece of plastic rolling around loose inside the subwoofer chamber (my guess is it is the plastic vent leading to the bottom port)

the performance of the niro was quite good and i had grown fond of it by the time i had to return it, but the build quality vs. price ratio in my experience was atrocious. i did like the design of the product enough that i might be foolish enough to order another one when i am working again, but i hope something else catches my eye before then!

i am now browsing satellite speakers, subwoofers and receivers for a 2.1 or 3.1 setup (not serious about buying, of course. thanks cathor for planting the seed...i think!). anyone know where i can find a list of small surround receivers? must they all be gigantic? the size of the niro was one of the things i liked very much about it.

it's funny. when i first joined the forum i was in the market for a 37" lcd television. i swore i was going to buy an aquos when the price hit $2000. that desire morphed into a 42" plasma into a 50" plasma into "i'm going to wait for SED". somehow i ended up in the audio section and before i knew it, the niro was sitting in my living room. and now, i'm back where i started, owning nothing except my 10-year-old 27" sony trinitron. ah, probably for the best!

good luck to everyone on their home theater odysseys!

grinchy

02-10-06, 10:55 PM

LCD

02-11-06, 12:38 AM

Wow, for $1000 that is atrocious. Makes me glad I didn't try it out, though I'm sure it beats the old Mainstage. Good luck with the job hunt. Economy is better now that a couple years ago, that's for sure.
Sounds like TCB got a good 2.1 option, looking forward to his review.
Keep on looking for the HD compatible display, it'll change your video life. Much bigger upgrade than audio IMHO.

grinchy,

thanks for the luck! i'll need it. i would love to buy an hd compatible display, i just don't have the budget for what i'd like to buy, especially now. plus, the reports on SED from CES 2006 are making me quite content to wait for the new technology. i thought spending $1000 on the audio would be a nice fiscal compromise, particularly because i could enjoy it for music as well.

again, i can't emphasize enough how much i liked the idea, design, engineering and performance of the niro. if i received one that was in pristine condition i probably would have kept it. it's too bad that the entire thing is made in china, made mostly of plastic and lightweight materials and evidently went through lax quality control. it doesn't help that the warranty on it is subpar either.

dc_pilgrim

02-11-06, 08:06 AM

I hear you about changing your mind. I went from wanting plasma to crt to front projection back to crt (for now). I also shot for in-walls, then when not feasible, we researched all these devices. Took about 8 months to pick one. A world of choices, huh?

Sorry about the job loss. Thanks for the reviews and comments on all the devices you tried.

TCB

02-11-06, 11:26 AM

Kef KIT-100

I've had the Kef KIT-100 for a few days now and will share some of my comments. One caveat, I am not an audio guy; I'm just an enthusiast who loves electronics. The KEF KIT-100 was purchased on clearance/open box from Ultimate Electronics in Roseville, Minnesota for $396 down from an MSRP of $1500. I sprung for an additional $200 to purchase the matching KEF speaker stands.

The system is quite hefty. The speakers are heavy little buggers as is the subwoofer. The subwoofer has a cool glass panel on the front. The whole system is quite stylish in a modern, urban way.

I am using the system with my brand new Sony XBR 960N. The Sony resides upstairs from our dedicated home theatre where I have a 7.1 surround system consisting of Klipsch Reference Series 7 speakers and a Sunfire True Signature Sub powered by the Pioneer Elite 49tx.

I wanted a 2.1 system because this is not my primary viewing area. If we are going to watch a movie, it'll be in the theatre. Nevertheless, I wanted sound worthy of the beautiful picture on the Sony XBR960N (the image on that television is unbelievable. I bought it for $1199 new, not open box).

I used Star Wars III as my test DVD. The picture looked great. I noticed no issues with the quality of the DVD through the KEF. This player does not upconvert like the Denon S-301. The video is sent out component. I wanted an upconverting player and have been impressed with the Denon; however, for under $400 for the whole system, I was not going to get hung up on that point. Furthermore, I thought the Denon was too pricey, especially in light of the new HD DVD players on the horizon.

I did a quick calibration of the system in the menu. Very simple. I discovered that I had the speakers reversed and fixed the problem. Then I had to shut everything down because my daughter was trying to fall asleep. A day later, I went back to work. The sound is wonderful. Does it equal my 7.1 setup downstairs. Heck no. But I didn't expect it would. The cool thing about the Kef system is that it is really a 4.1 system. The surrounds are panels on the side that are bounced off walls. Does it work? Kinda, I guess. I'll need more time with it to be convinced one way or the other.

Bass is really perfect for my room. The center channel sound (actually, approximated by the right and left speakers) makes for very intelligible, crisp dialogue. I appreciated that there are 3 digital inputs on this little system. One for cable, one for Xbox 360 and one for??? However, only one of the inputs was SPDIF. The rest were coaxial.

One selling point the Denon had going for it was Ipod connectivity. Of course, any system is able to be used with an Ipod. Just use a mini stereo to RCA adapter.

In some respects, this review is not worth the space it is taking up on the server because I can't tell you if it performs better than the Denon, Niro, Mainstage, etc. I can only compare it with the Denon and say that it is as good as the Denon audio-wise and nearly as good video-wise.

My advice to anyone with an Ultimate Electronics in their area is to go snatch one up for $396. Once I discovered that I could get this system for that price, I was sold. I first saw the KEF system at Best Buy a week ago for $899.

cathor

02-11-06, 08:00 PM

LCD - sorry to hear about the job loss. I went through that 5 years ago and while something better typically comes out of it it's still no fun. Thanks for the Niro review - I was thinking about going in that direction for a while, but couldn't justify the cost.

I really think 2.1 systems are a viable and superior alternative to the one box systems. A Kef Kit-100 for less than $400 is one of the best bargains I've seen in a while.

Ximori

02-11-06, 10:00 PM

LCD, you don't work for Oracle, do you? Anyhow, best wishes...

The Niro Pro II I recently got seem to be defective as the sound or dialogues in the center get distorted at moderate-high level. I remember not having this issue with the Ref...and gets quite annoying, at times. Although I would have preferred its warmer midrange compared to the Ref the distortion and lack of natural sound in the fronts though won't cut it for me.

So yesterday, I called customer service and asked an exchange for the Ref. I will be driving down to their warehouse on Monday to return the Pro II and get a new Ref. I hope they don't give me your returned Ref :eek: ;)

Kidding aside, now that you've heard the Ref it will be interesting to know which one you will eventually pick.

Again, hope things go well for you.

Dave and others, think front projection. It's portable and looking better every year, especially once the PS3 and blu-ray comes out - all designed for larger images to enjoy, which only pjs can bring.

grinchy

02-11-06, 11:41 PM

dc_pilgrim

02-12-06, 10:36 AM

Oh, I definitely plan to do FP, but it probably won't be till 2007 at this point. We just had a baby girl and the disposable income isn't what it used to be. Need to bank a few bonuses before finishing the basement is a viable option. WAF limits most things in the existing living spaces (hence the binaura). I am content to wait, as my 4 month old daughter really doesn't leave me much time for tv and movies.

I am really impressed with that price on that KEF.

Cathor - - I think you made an interesting point about going with a virtual dolby receiver and some nice speakers. I think that is a viable option that some should consider.

Here is hoping that the quality improves and prices come down.

TCB

02-12-06, 12:37 PM

Hey Pilgrim (in psuedo-John Wayne voice),
Congrats on the baby girl!

Ultimate Electronics had an ad in the Sunday paper about the Kef clearance. It also announced 50% KEF speaker stands. Looks like I'm back to get another $100 off.

Ximori

02-12-06, 03:10 PM

On FP, video is amazing, even in "low-def". I got a Hitachi Home-1 (WVGA) last year, and Olympic luge is looking good (OTA HD feed). The Mainstage is doing just fine as the sole audio source (plus sub, but it's off right now) for our 7 x 15 screen wall.

I have a Sony Hs20 and thinking of upgrading this year. The nice thing about the Niro is how well the sound projects from that 106" sized image - feels like a real theatre. :)

grinchy

02-20-06, 10:27 PM

I finally got my RS db meter and REW working on my laptop using a cheap USB sound card from Fry's (too cheap, it's going back), but the numbers for the mainstage are pretty accurate, it was the sub freqs that the soundcard dropped off on.

Anyway, this is the Soundmatters Mainstage in my room. It sits on the floor and is angled at the seating area about 13 feet away. I'd say I have is on a 30 degree angle. The mic was pointed at about 45 degrees up, and this may have hurt measurements. Oh well, they're what I've got.

It isn't pretty. Lots of dropouts in the freqs. This was a 1/3rd octave sweep, and includes my sub response on the low end.

<edit> Now that I think about it, this is the response with the level set by the sub pink noise. I'll put up another one that is set correctly.

MoltenLava

02-21-06, 12:07 AM

Whoa. What is RS db meter? Does it generate frequency sweep tones, and measure the response? What equipments exactly do you need? I need something like that right now.

grinchy

02-21-06, 02:49 PM

REW = Room EQ Wizard, a freeware that does generate sweeps and measures the db response. Very cool.

RS db Meter = Radio Shack Sound SPL meter - $50 for digital version.

You also need a full duplex sound card.

The sound is generated on the line out, which is amplified etc. And then measured from the sound meter (it has an rca out) into the line in.

Lots of information on this over in the subwoofer threads.

MoltenLava

02-22-06, 02:00 AM

Thanks for the info. Do you really need the digital SPL meter, or can you connect a microphone to line in? I have the analog version. ugh.

grinchy

02-22-06, 06:48 PM

Any SPL meter (analog or digital) with output should work. A calibrated microphone would also work, though you'd need the cal table.

I simply bought the digital because they quit carrying the analog in stores. Some like one, others the other, but functionally the meters are equivalent.

MoltenLava

02-23-06, 12:34 AM

Thanks. BTW what kind of sub do you have? The freq response is amazingly flat between 30 and 100Hz even if the level is set incorrectly.

grinchy

02-23-06, 01:38 PM

Sealed dual 10" Sony wx-700. Read about ithere (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=594997&highlight=wx700) - currently retailing below $300 before a $100 rebate (see CC).

LCD

02-24-06, 10:12 PM

thanks for the well wishes everyone! my last day of work was on tuesday. off to the great unknown...

ximori, my returned ref arrived at niro on the day you went to pick yours up. if your sub is rattling, it was mine. ;)

mczolton

03-18-06, 01:10 PM

LCD

03-22-06, 11:06 PM

mark,

i just ordered a kenwood vrs-7200, a pair of orbs and a super eight sub. the 7200 seems to be exactly like the 7100 except that it has binding posts for the front speakers instead of clips and it adds s-video inputs and outputs. there was an issue with the 7100's component video output that has supposedly been fixed in the 7200. on paper, the kenwood receivers look like a fantastic idea. i think they killed themselves marketing them as "gaming" receivers. based on what i've read they use the same TI chipset as the panasonic digital receivers. the only real minus i can see (having not tested it yet) is the fact that dvd-a and sacd users are left out in the cold (the kenwoods don't have 5.1 analog inputs). not an issue for me since i own nothing in either format. i am very excited about the dolby headphone and dolby virtual speaker features. i still have the niro sound fresh in my mind, so i'm eager to do a comparison. the whole setup is a couple hundred dollars less than the niro reference package.

i'm also curious about why there are very few receivers out there with dolby virtual speaker. personally, i really hate the idea of cluttering the living room with speakers to the sides of the couch, not to mention the wire runs. anyway, the denon s-301 and 101 implement dvs, so it can't be that ineffective, right (i hope)?

it took me forever to decide between the orbs + super eight and omnisats + S8. in the end, i bought the hype on orb audio's website. from what i've read, the super eight seems to be quite a sub. i liked the idea of the omnisats, but was worried about reviews stating you'd either love them or hate them for their more laid back, diffuse nature.

i'll let you know how it goes!

mczolton

03-23-06, 10:37 AM

i'm also curious about why there are very few receivers out there with dolby virtual speaker. personally, i really hate the idea of cluttering the living room with speakers to the sides of the couch, not to mention the wire runs. anyway, the denon s-301 and 101 implement dvs, so it can't be that ineffective, right (i hope)?

it took me forever to decide between the orbs + super eight and omnisats + S8. in the end, i bought the hype on orb audio's website. from what i've read, the super eight seems to be quite a sub. i liked the idea of the omnisats, but was worried about reviews stating you'd either love them or hate them for their more laid back, diffuse nature.

i'll let you know how it goes!

Thanks for the reply. I won't be using DVD-A or SACD so that isn't an issue for me either. I also read about the Omnisat (love them or hate them), and I am a little concerned that such a diffuse sound quality won't work for my situation - I only want to use two of them. I'll check out the Orbs - they are pretty cute :)

Mark

LCD

03-28-06, 11:49 PM

Thanks for the reply. I won't be using DVD-A or SACD so that isn't an issue for me either. I also read about the Omnisat (love them or hate them), and I am a little concerned that such a diffuse sound quality won't work for my situation - I only want to use two of them. I'll check out the Orbs - they are pretty cute :)

Mark

so it starts anew. orb audio sent the system to me in two parts, the subwoofer through ups and the speakers, cables and wires through fedex. the subwoofer arrived on monday. the speakers were supposed to arrive on saturday. the fedex website reports that the delivery was made at 4pm. my wife and i were home all day and did not hear a knock on the door or the doorbell. not only that, but at 4:15 i was on my way out of the house and saw nothing on the front porch.

ANYway, on to my impressions of the sub. since i don't have anything to hook it up to, this is purely a appearance/build quality review. i hope i'm able to listen to it sometime soon.

the super eight is wrapped in a plastic bag and packaged in a box with styrofoam holders on the top and bottom. nothing protects the sides of the woofer from damage during shipping. in most cases, the subwoofer should not be in any danger as there is some empty space between the sides of the box and the sides of the sub. however, my box came with holes in it from who knows what. for a company that prides itself on sparing no expense, i'm a little disappointed there is no padding for the sides of the box. that said, i could detect no damage to the sides of the super eight.

the sub is made in china. for a company that plays up the fact that their speakers are handcrafted in the u.s.a. it is disappointing to me that they manufacture their sub in china. i hope someone will correct me if i'm wrong, but no company manufactures anything in china for the high quality labor. they move there for the cheap parts and for the cheap labor.

the first thing i noticed about the sub was the smell. this thing STINKS. the smell is coming from the rubber feet, which are made of some type of cheap industrial black rubber. the rubber is dense, but doesn't look like it has any kind of finish on it. the smell is strong enough to pervade my entire living room. if it doesn't fade soon i'll have to return the whole setup because of the odor. it's a gasonline/chemical-type odor. when i wipe the feet with a cloth, the cloth becomes black.

in my opinion the sub is pretty ugly. the finish seems to be of decent quality, but the textured flecks on the surface are not very attractive. i like the rounded corners. the grille on the front is not pretty. it's grey, but there is a reflective thread woven throughout the fabric that makes it look very...i'm not sure what the word i'm looking for is. the grille frame itself is made of a lightweight particleboard material that looks like it was dipped in tar and then not cleaned off very well. the grille fabric is glued to the round frame. the holes on the sub that the grille mounts onto have not been machined well. two of them are flush with the surface of the sub and blend in fairly well with the finish. the other two are raised and one seems to have been forced into place, its edges look crushed. on the top surface of the sub there is also a bump on the cabinet where it looks like a screw underneath was not screwed all the way in.

the back of the sub is different from the pictures they show on the website. the detachable power cord is gone. the sub now sports a connected cord. the various dials and switches have also been moved around a bit. apparently the price of the sub has been dropped $50 from earlier years. i wonder from what step of production the savings came from.

the dials and connectors appear to be of good quality. the sub itself is fairly heavy. it weighs close to 30 pounds, a far cry from the 11 pounds of the niro sub. the niro sub was by far more attractive. i even miss the little brass spikes.

so far, i'm not very happy. i can't understand why i'm having so many problems with more expensive audio gear. my klipsch gmx 2.1 setup is made up of cheap internals that are beginning to fail after three years of use. the fit and finish of the klipsch however, is impeccable. closed seams, no blemishes, quality material (even the plastic parts do not feel cheap) solid workmanship and appearance. of course, the most important thing about an audio setup is how it sounds, but can't there be a balance between build quality and performance?

what bothers me the most is that both niro and orb audio advertise themselves as direct to consumer companies who use no middlemen or advertising, thereby saving their resources for quality components and construction. my personal experience with each company so far has been quite subpar in terms of build quality. of course, i have yet to see the orb speakers.

i suppose the other possibility is that i'm just crazy, since it doesn't appear that anyone else has experienced these problems. or maybe normal people don't care. :)

i'll post a sonic review if i ever receive the speakers. if orb doesn't work out, i will give the omnisat setup a try. if THAT fails me, i'm going to buy a cheap setup up from logitech or similar company and be done with it. :P

thanks for letting me vent! :)

mczolton

03-29-06, 08:41 AM

Ouch. I hope they sound better than they smell :D I was looking into Orb, but after reading this, I'm not so sure. Maybe a different sub is in order?

Mark

LCD

03-29-06, 11:43 AM

Ouch. I hope they sound better than they smell :D I was looking into Orb, but after reading this, I'm not so sure. Maybe a different sub is in order?

Mark

mark,

i'm not sure you should use my experiences as relevant data! this is what i don't get though, universally, the reviews for niro and orb have been stellar. no professional reviews or forum reviews mention anything resembling the problems i've had. so, i must be either crazy or incredibly unlucky. however, i just can't see how i'm being unreasonable in my evaluations of fit, finish and build quality.

a lot of the orb reviews do parrot talking points from their website. i find that to be incredibly annoying in what are supposed to be unbiased professional reviews.

the living room still smells like a factory and i'm still waiting for the orb speakers. :)

to be continued...

jfkemd

04-02-06, 07:38 PM

Hello everyone.
I just found this site while researching a virtual surround sound system for my family room. I have a 15x15 feet room open to the kitchen with a 9 foot ceiling. I am looking for a sound system to pair with my 50 inch samsung dlp tv. The virtual surround system concept appeals to me because I am really not into too many wires, and want to keep the room as clutter-free as possible.
I am currently looking at the mainstage hd, binaura and yamaha ysp 800. I am also not considering buying a receiver and thus the above choices. Price is also a major factor.
What would you guys recommend would be worth my money and at the same time would produce the best results?
Thanks in advance.

dc_pilgrim

04-03-06, 08:31 AM

Post #3 list your options on the first page. With an open layout, the yamaha YSP line might not work well for you. All three of your choices are well discussed in this thread. I have a Binaura in an open layout, that I like well enough, but with full knowledge that it, and all of these "virtual" devices are compromises. Mostly aesthetics/convenience over performance (especially on the surround/stereo aspect).

If you are prepared to spend the $800 or so for the YSP-800, I'd also look at the Niro or perhaps the entry level Denon. A final option would be the kenwood vrs-7200, plus a pair of speakers+sub.

Welcome to the forum and good luck.

mczolton

04-03-06, 11:03 AM

A final option would be the kenwood vrs-7200, plus a pair of speakers+sub.

Keeping the price under $800.00, one could couple the Kenwood VRS-7200 or the Harmon Kardon AVR-240 (both of which feature Dolby Virtual Speaker) with a nice stereo speaker/sub setup. But what speakers to buy? Surely one can do better that the 3" drivers in most of these one (or two) box solutions.

Thoughts?

Mark

grinchy

04-04-06, 03:58 PM

jfkemd - My room is 15 x 20 x 8, with a large doorway and bar into the kitchen at the back of the room. I use the Mainstage (non-hd) ($170 refurb) and a low-budget sealed dual driver Sony wx-700 subwoofer ($220 - missed the $100 rebate by 2 weeks). For movies the audio of this system is quite satisfying. Dialogue is more clearly discernable than my old 5.1 setup, and soundstage l/r pans are quite convincing. For music less satisfying, though completely listenable. Volume is not a problem, it will get much louder than I would ever choose to watch at. There is little/no surround effect, but I haven't really missed it. Quite happy.

As a bonus, the mainstage is slim, and fits in the limited space I have below by painted wall screen (I usually watch a picture 7 feet tall).

Bert

05-09-06, 01:01 AM

For Ximori and others who have purchased the NIRO system: Don't know if you've checked their site lately, but the new Upgrade just came out. I'm almost certain I'm going to be ordering the module. I'm pretty happy with what I've got, but I'm really curious as to how they've improved on it, and it's only 15 bucks!

They've got some neat MP3 files you can listen to now on the site, in virtual surround. It's impressive--and I'm only listening through my crummy built-ins. My favorites are the mountain stream sounds and the swirling wind.

frank bavaro

05-09-06, 02:50 PM

or places to buy, away from them directly (at a discount, of course)

kpadrino

05-10-06, 11:52 PM

I'm in the same spot as most who've posted on this topic. Small, tight space but looking for a good sound without bunch of speakers and wires. Room is 15x15 and open on 2 sides to other areas. TV is in the corner.

Has anyone tried the Polk Surroundbar or the Mirage Omni Uni-theater??? Got to admit, the looks are almost as important as the sound...or is that the other way around. The Yami's won't work due to the open sided room config.

Really looking for input soon.

K

sv_chamelea

05-11-06, 01:38 PM

IHas anyone tried the Polk Surroundbar or the Mirage Omni Uni-theater???
K, Those are both pretty pricey solutions, eh? You must already have the AVR?

Identical room arrangement here ... I wanted to punt a Bose Lifestyle 12 and was looking to avoid wires to the rear. But most descriptions of synthetic surround systems in this thread say it's just like a 2.1 system. Partial to the omni-concept, I finally just bought the Spherex/Mirage 5.1 from Fry's Electronics, $300. I figured WTH, if I don't like it for the living room, I'll move it to my office/den.

Spherex control codes are in Logitech's database for the Harmony remotes. No AVR required (embedded in the subwoofer) plus it provides a set-top puck that shows volume & configuration. I placed the sub in the rt-corner behind the TV, so the center & right speakers are wired direct, fully hidden. Then ran left speaker wire thru a white plastic baseboard channel (also from Fry's) and added a $50 pair of generic speaker stands from Best Buy - skip the rear satellites if you don't want the wiring hassle.

Some people don't like the Mirage concept, but I want to try it. And I'm thrilled with it ... broad soundstage, full range, adds deep bass range even to TV news. Complaints about soft in the mids? ... nah, they just didn't find the Treble control~! I find that it's important to mount these Mirage sats pretty low ( ~30") so they can rise & fill the room. Speaker stands permit them to be 15 inches out from the corners. The sub is down-firing into carpet. I just placed a hard platform betw it and the carpet ... total solution was a bit under $400, with cables. Upgrade to 5.1 is free for the asking.

I went back to Fry's for more plastic channel, added the rears too.
YMMV, but this works very well for me. ;)

dc_pilgrim

05-11-06, 03:29 PM

Has anyone tried the Polk Surroundbar or the Mirage Omni Uni-theater???

Check in the speaker forum. I think these were discussed there a little more (run a search). I hadn't seen any one post comments on those products in this thread/forum. They are both rather pretty. I heard a demo of the polk at tweeter. It sounded decent, though I liked the YSP better. Course the demo room didn't have the open layout I have.

nudge

05-16-06, 09:49 PM

I just recently purchased a ysp-1000 for my living room and thought I would give a little back to this forum with my impressions.

First off, what it is not. It will not give you the perfect separation of a true 5.1 system. If your okay with an '80%' solution to that problem, then it is a really amazing unit.

It sounds fine for movies and audio both, at least to my ears. I paired it up with an SVS PB-10 subwoofer and I could not be more pleased. Obviously my room sets up well for the ysp, with the speaker sitting in front of my tv, on the centerline of the wall opposite the sofa. The rear wall has a large opening in it, but that opening is centered between two 4 foot long 'wings' that the ysp had no trouble finding to create virtual rear surrounds. I find that if I choose the 'stereo' setting on the ysp, I can listen to music for hours and not get tired of the sound quality.

Since the ysp has so many virtual surround modes built in, I find myself goofing around with it continually. (Much to my wife's annoyance!) As an example, the 5 beam music mode allows you to choose between a jazz club setting and a concert hall setting, that sort of thing. The 5 beam 'tv sports' mode is really nice also, as it centers the dialog near the tv but still allows a fair amount of surround sound ambiance. Almost like going to Dodger stadium and listening to Vin Scully on headphones while still taking in the sounds of the game all around you.

Another cool feature is what Yamaha calls 'target' mode. It allows you to turn the volume way down for late night listening, but direct the sound right at the sweet spot in your listening room. In my case, I am about 10 feet away right in front of the speaker, and man is it weird to have a strong sound field in that one spot and then hear it fall off in intensity dramatically as you walk a few feet to one side or the other. This feature has garnered largest amount of precious WAF by far! And I don't need to wear headphones to watch tv after she crashes anymore, so it is good for me too.

In short, if you are looking for a minimalist system and your environment works for the ysp, I would not hesitate to recommend this system to anyone.

nudge

dc_pilgrim

05-17-06, 08:02 AM

Thanks for the feedback Nudge. Interesting about the different modes.

mikie77

05-24-06, 01:44 PM

Can anyone suggest a dvd that would enable me to hear the sound from my ysp1000.
I would just like something that would give me a good practical demo.

dc_pilgrim

05-24-06, 03:17 PM

Surround Sound:

The Incredibles
Master and Commander
Star Wars Pod Race
Saving Private Ryan
Open Range
Gladiator
Castaway
House of flying daggers
Blackhawk down

mikie77

05-24-06, 05:50 PM

Thanks Dave for the DVD's

And thank you Netflicks

Mike

Ximori

06-14-06, 04:01 PM

dc_pilgrim

07-17-06, 10:53 AM

dc_pilgrim

07-18-06, 12:13 PM

Got a response from Binaura (thanks Mark for the contact point) it was sort of a non-answer.

It seems that your system is more susceptible to external electrical interference than most unit and we are sorry for hear that.

Whenever you encounter any unusual behavior, the best thing to do is to turn off the power with the switch on the back of subwoofer or unplug the unit from the wall. Either way, give about 30 seconds before turn it back on. After this process, the computer inside your system is back in the initial state and the system should be as good as new.

That's more or less what I was already doing. I checked the fuse last night (mentioned in their FAQ), it was fine. After I did that, I could hear the unit faintly at max volume. The baby was asleep already, so I didn't want to mess with it too much.

I could send it back for warranty service, although the form says I need the original box and proof of purchase (UPC code, I guess) which I lack. I have a print out of my receipt. I'd have to pay shipping, so I might just go for an upgrade. I am locked into 1.1 systems due to the baby. So it might be ysp-800 + sub. Not sure I want to spend any money right now though.

mczolton

07-18-06, 12:18 PM

Glad to be of service. I hope the repair works out for you.

Mark

Got a response from Binaura (thanks Mark for the contact point) it was sort of a non-answer.

That's more or less what I was already doing. I checked the fuse last night (mentioned in their FAQ), it was fine. After I did that, I could hear the unit faintly at max volume. The baby was asleep already, so I didn't want to mess with it too much.

I could send it back for warranty service, although the form says I need the original box and proof of purchase (UPC code, I guess) which I lack. I have a print out of my receipt. I'd have to pay shipping, so I might just go for an upgrade. I am locked into 1.1 systems due to the baby. So it might be ysp-800 + sub. Not sure I want to spend any money right now though.

nudge

07-18-06, 08:59 PM

Please delete this if it is against forum rules, but if any of you have been waiting for a decent price on the Yamaha YSP-1, you may want to type 'yamaha' into the search box at overstock.com. 'nuff said.

good luck,
nudge

dc_pilgrim

07-21-06, 10:53 AM

Going with the upgrade rather than figure out what's buggy in the Binaura.

Last night I moved the Hsu stf-2 sub (got a deal) meant for the to-be-finished basement that is delayed for a while upstairs. To my surprise it just barely fit behind the tv stand. So we are going to give the ysp-800 a whirl.

Not an ideal layout (corner placement, semi-open) but I think it will work in their stereo + 3 beam mode. At least the couch isn't against the wall.

Steeling my courage to grab one on e-bay. Will post comments when I have it.

Chauncy Gardner

07-26-06, 09:02 PM

Hey thread,

I haven't posted in a while but I lurk and remain keenly interested in any progress being made in the Vurtual Surround niche. Thanks again to all the posters who contribute here.

Thought I'd post a link to the newest offering from Sharp, the SD SP10. It gets a solid "8" review from CNET and incorporates some new Dolby processing dubbed "Audistry". Anyone heard it yet?

Ooops, can't post the link due to AVS guidelines.

Cheers,

Chauncy

dc_pilgrim

07-27-06, 08:51 AM

Here is the link Chauncy was refering to:

http://reviews.cnet.com/Sharp_SD_SP10/4505-6740_7-31648369-2.html?tag=nav

I'll add it to the list on post#3 later. MSRP appears to be $399.

Haven't heard anything about the audistry stuff before.

In other news, the YSP-800 I got off ebay arrived in apparantly good condition last night. Although it won't fit on top of my crt (crt is too narrow), so I need to look at a shelf. The manual says it is magnetically shielded, yet recomends against putting it on top of crt's. So I'll probably look to add a little breathing room just in case. Haven't been able to play with it yet since I had a home owners assoc meeting last night.

I will post comments on its corner performance once I get it running.

plughplover

07-27-06, 11:49 PM

Binaura has been flaky with the power supply. Every now and again (was often after a power outage) it would stop receiving incoming signals from the inputs. I would usually toggle the "hard" power switch located on the back of the thing on/off (not the button which puts in standby mode) a couple times and it would start to work again. My house has a lot of nuisance outages (clocks flash a couple times a month), so I added a UPS to the setup, and it had been fine.

This weekend it did it again, only this time my old toggling trick didn't work. So I am going to have to figure something out. Its been an okay performer for a year ago, but the thing is tucked behind my corner placed tv stand, so it is a PITA to mess with it.

I intend to e-mail the company to see if they have any recomendations. I'll post if I get any results. I suspect there is a short in there someplace. But I am not particularly handy at fixing these things. I don't recall seeing other Binaura owners having this problem, so it might be an isolated thing.

The wife is not on board with going 2.1 in the den, so I am not sure what my next move will be.

Wow, talk about spooky timing...

My Binaura just flaked out as well. Also tried the power down/up reset etc, no joy.

Went down pretty quickly. First symptom, DD5.1 via optical started cutting in and out, sometimes bass only. Started fiddling, trying differant sources (digital coax, analog) eventually got to the point that I had nothing from any input. It was almost acting like a loose connection, but it didn't matter what source.

Interestingly, it reacts to various types of digital inputs correctly, so that part of the logic seems ok. Since all channels went out simultaneously, I'd suspect amplifier power rail or possibly amp input selector.

Bought it new on ebay. It's less than a year old. The box is long gone. Guess I'll open it up and see if I can find the problem. Grrrr...

plughplover

07-28-06, 01:35 AM

Well, opened it up and the problem was OBVIOUS - BAD CAPS.

Five "Suncap" brand electrolytic capacitors leaking - three in the power amplifier assembly, two on what I'd guess is a low voltage supply daughterboard (one or both of these two appear to have failed).

IF YOU HAVE WARRANTY COVERAGE THIS CERTAINLY QUALIFIES AS A MANUFACTURING DEFECT.

I'm trying to decide whether its worth the effort to replace them. Getting replacements isn't the issue; the problem is nearly all the electrolytic caps in the system are the same brand - how long till they start going, too...

I am angry.

dc_pilgrim

07-28-06, 08:55 AM

Plughplover - You want my box for parts? Its either that or mine will sit in the basement. I am switching to the yamaha ysp-800.

plughplover

07-28-06, 09:13 AM

re: your offer - maybe... It would be interesting to see if yours had the same problem. It's pretty easy to open it up enough for visual inspection - I can post instructions. You game?

Oh, and correction to my preceding post - make that SIX leaking caps (add one more to the power amp assembly). Looks like all the large electrolytics are leaking to one degree or another.

dc_pilgrim

07-28-06, 10:20 AM

Sure, I'll crack it open. Might take me a few days since I am booked pretty tightly this weekend. I know next to nothing about electronics, but, if it is obvious, I am sure I'll see it. Otherwise I can take pictures of whatever you want. The box is yours for shipping if you want it.

plughplover

07-28-06, 12:53 PM

My suggested 'how to'

Find a flat surface with an edge - a table or kitchen counter
Put an appropriate size towel down to protect finishes
Lay unit down with woofer facing up and feet hanging off edge

There are 14 screws to remove from the back panel;
3 top, 3 bottom, and 4 on each side; they are closest to the edges.
I suggest removing top 3, bottom 3, the 4 on the side next to table,
then the four on the woofer side working inwards from top/bottom.

As you remove the last screw the panel will want to roll out and down, so grip the heat sink to control it. There are two sets of wires coming off the panel into the box; speaker wire to the woofer and ribbon cables going to front panel. In my unit there was enough slack in the ribbon cables to allow the back panel to lay down next to the box, however I had to disconnect the speaker wire from back panel. (Just grasp it and wiggle it off). This connector isn't painted, so you can pull it without warranty worries.

Looking at the exposed electronics you will observe a large transformer on the bottom, two small boards mounted perpendicular to the heat sink in the middle (you detached the woofer speaker wire from one of them) and a stacked assembly of three boards on the top.

The six caps showing leakage on my system were:

On each of the two amplifier boards (attached to heat sink) are two large cylindrical capacitors - a pair of 4700uF on one and pair of 3300uF on other. Inpect these, in particular the tops (should be flat, not bulging up) and the boards around their bases (should be clean, no 'gook' around them). You may need a flashlight and magnifying glass depending upon lighting conditions and your eyesight. On my system all of these have varying amounts of gook.

The other two caps are a bit harder to see. The bottom board in the stacked assembly has two smaller caps. I have lots of gook around these, and the top of the larger of the two is bulging up.

This is all fairly close quarters, and without disassembling further your only view of the boards / caps of interest is from the sides, so taking pictures will probably be difficult. But the gook and deformations should be apparent if your unit failed anything like mine did - I zeroed in on the daughterboard caps in less than a minute, it was that obvious.

Reassembly is just the reverse, and the whole process shouldn't take very long at all. Looking forward to your report...

dc_pilgrim

07-28-06, 01:29 PM

Okay. I'll try to crack open the binaura as soon as I can.

plughplover

07-29-06, 05:29 PM

dc_pilgrim, I just sent you a PM.

dc_pilgrim

07-31-06, 02:32 PM

Cracked the Binaura open, and to my eyes - zero gouck.

I'll send to u a PM on the other matter, once I figure it out. Momentarily.

plughplover

08-01-06, 02:51 AM

Cracked the Binaura open, and to my eyes - zero gouck.
Hmmm... a differant failure mode...

Well, I replaced all 6 caps, plus another small one that looked suspicious. Also replaced two cooked resisters on the daughterboard (had to guess a value since the bar codes were unreadable - used 10 ohms). Put it all back together, powered it up, and...

No change - still no audio output. :(

The two resisters appeared to be current limiters at the AC input to the daughterboard before the rectifiers and the bad caps. Got me puzzled as to what else is broke; wish I had a schematic.

Enough for now; it's 3am; going to bed.

dc_pilgrim

08-01-06, 11:31 AM

Some initial comments on the YSP-800 + Hsu STF-2.

I haven't been able to do anything approaching critical listening. We travelled last weekend, and we don't use the TV when the baby is awake, and the noise would travel when the baby is asleep. But I have grabbed a few moments here and there when my wife is on errands. I'll comment further when I can.

Setup The YSP arrived from ebay in good condition, which was my initial fear. The packaging for the YSP was adequete for shipping UPS didn't punish it too severely. We are placing it in a corner in a 20x14 room with ceilings that loft to almost 16 feet. This room is open to a kitchen in the back (approximately 15x10x9), and a 36" or so opening into the rest of the house. This isn't an ideal (perfect rectangle, centered on short wall) setup for the YSP.

We put the ysp-800 on top of my Sony 30XS955 CRT. Only it wasn't close to stable so I bought an omnimount center shelf from CC (the sanus at BB wasn't rated for the weight of the ysp-800). The manual clearly states that although the YSP is magnettically shielded, it should not be put on a CRT. We are taking our chances. The YSP has not hampered the PQ on the CRT, which is typical for an unshielded speaker.

The YSP now sits nicely on its shelf. Minor complaint - the inputs are in a recessed section, pointing down to aid wall mounting. It is PITA to connect wires if you shelf mount it. I could rotate the unit, but the velcro is strong, and I wind up trying to finagle them in. In a perfect world there would be a bit more clearance.

The auto-setup is unremarkable. Position the microphone and follow the menu. Makes noises for 2-3 minutes, scares the baby, and its done. It defaults the corner setup into "3 beam + stereo" mode. Which means L+R are stereo, C+surrounds are using the beam approach. It also tests to verify a sub is, or is not present (which scared the baby).

the subwoofer I had a HSU STF-2 meant for the (delayed) basement in the basement. I found a deal and grabbed it. I moved that up and put it behind the tv and attached it. This sub is an a totally different class than the one included in the binaura. Much more powerful (10" woofer vs 6.5"), and generally meaner. This has been the most noticable improvement over my prior setup. I haven't even cranked its volume or anything.

Surround Sound I don't feel I have listened enough to fully comment. I'll add more later. I definitely think it suffers in a corner setup. I have heard the ysp-1 in a tweeter store with a better layout, and it does a convincing (not perfect) job. I will say it is not a downgrade vs the Binaura (better not be given the $$). I stated in my prior review of that I felt it delivered something closer to a 3.1 feel. So far the same story with the YSP (in my environs). I really haven't heard enough to know if it tickles my ears enough to hear the presence of the rear channels.

EDIT 8/7/06 - I put the unit through some more pacesthis weekend, including running a calibration disc. Running AVIA, it produces static at each "channel". Listening to the comparison between right channel, and right surround at the sweetspot, I can say the surround element sounded further to the right, and with a bit more of a diffuse sound. I wasn't looking over my shoulder to see if it was behind me, but it did locate further off the axis. I never ran this test with the Binaura, so I can't compare it. I'll note that the auto-setup runs the surrounds 1-2 dbs higher than the LCR mains. I need to poke in to see if I can adjust that with the manual settings. My sub was also lower, but I just adjusted the volume on the subwoofer to correct that.

Watching some of the scenes from master and commander, I don't think it compares to a proper 5.1 system, but it does add something. I am undecided if, in my "challenging" layout it out performs boundryless devices like the binaura for surround sound, let alone sufficient to justify the price premium (the sub does). But given the failure of the binaura, the performance of the sub, and my desire to upgrade I am pleased.

Music listening Not golden eared at all, but it has sounded acceptable for casual listening with an i-pod using 128k encoded mp3s.