I have read some smack here on AVS about M&K being in trouble. Well, Boulderdash!

I can't say a heck of a lot, as I have literally been sworn to secrecy. But what I can say is that M&K is successfully adapting to the changing realities of the new manufactuing paradigm. If you have orders in for M&K products, be patient. If you are considering placing some orders, don't worry.

What is the " new manufactuing paradigm"?

I have M&K 150's with the 350 sub and love the system.

GREAT company with a LONG and very wonderful history...

Thanks for this post...

All the best...

mls

I have nearly 12 M&K's. My favorites are a pair of S-1C's. A phenomenal speaker. And phenomenally hard to find. The support and service I have gotten from M&K, since I bought my first pair in 1982, has been almost as good as the sound. So I am a big M&K cheerleader.

When my long standing local retailer stopped carrying M&K, I became curious. Then I read some flames on this board, saying M&K was going to shut down. Fortunately, my line of work allows me to combine business with obsession. I have since been able to set my mind at ease regarding M&Ks future.

As far as defining "the new manufacturing paradigm", I think I had best leave that open to interpretation.

I'd assume "the new manufacturing paradigm" is to build in China. Since, they already have their drivers and cabinets made in China. Labor is the only thing left that can save them money.

My M&Ks had Vifa drivers that had "Made in Denmark" stamped on them. When did they move their driver production to China?

Recently they've gone to building their own drivers in China. I don't know if they do it for all speakers or not. Of course I could be completely wrong.

Global sourcing has become important for a number of reasons. One of the big reasons is Wal Mart. In the push for lower and lower prices, a concept to which the American consumer has become addicted, factories in low cost manufacturing countries are building huge economies of scale. There are electrtonics factories in foreign countries that, in one or two shifts, could produce an entire years worth of parts for every high end speaker manufacturer in the world. So it becomes harder and harder for niche, high end electronic parts manufacturers to compete. When a business owner reaches a point where the costs of manufacturing exceed the market price he can get for his products, he either converts to a not profit charity, or shuts down. This forces his customers to seek new vendors, a painstaking and time consuming process for any company who is technically forward thinking and quality focused.

And as for the country of origin, parts are still parts, irrespective of the color of the fingers which put them together. A rich old guy told me he would rather have a Japanese car from an assembly line, than a hand built Rolls Royce made on the Monday following an important soccer game.

I love my M&Ks but just because they are going to use Chinese labor (slave labor) doesn't really make me feel that much better. But hey what do you do when everyone is doing it? You really can't blame M&K if they have to. Just wonder what this country is going to be producing in thirty years?

Kind of sad in a way....but that is just my opinion.

True. It is kinda' sad. Now that low prices have become the primary competitive feature in products ranging from denim jeans to tweeters, companies feel they have to find the lowest cost labor pools or perish. High end audio is a bit different: it almost seems as though the more you pay for item, the better you feel about the product. Even in the high end though, as M&K bears witness, the component/parts manufacturers have been forced overseas to supply the mass market manufacturers who account for the vast majority of their sales. Wether by choice or not, solid American brands are being forced to source their components from abroad.

The upside is that maybe the lower costs can be passed along to us!

Other than the impact of affecting American jobs, I don't care where M&K gets their parts as long as they continue to build amazing speakers! After purchasing my M&K 7.2 setup (3 S150's, 4 SS-150's, and 2 MX-350's), I can't ever see myself owning another brand of speaker. M&K rocks! Bryston too, but that's another thread...

BTW, does anybody know when M&K will be updating their speaker systems. It seems like the S150s hit the market years and years ago and have not been updated since. It would be nice to see a THX Ultra2 system to compete with Klipsch and Snell.

The move to China seems inevitable. An ugly box with 2 woofers and 3 tweeters is a hard sell at $875 each (the cost of the S150). Most folks will look elsewhere to spend their hard earned dollars. If you pay the American worker what he or she's worth, the American consumer will typically balk at the prices needed to make a profit. Outsourcing will allow M&K to lower their prices, be more competitive and sell more product. I'm sure that one of the reasons for the lack of product availability recently is that M&K found it hard to find workers willing to work for the wages necessary to charge $875 for each speaker! The economics simply no longer work.

There don't appear to be any new highend consumer products in the works. They are planning a new pro audio monitor, but I have seen nothing that takes the S150 to new heights. There are voices inside M&K (not my head) that are clamoring for an ultra high end flagship speaker. Will Ken Kreisel listen? Who knows......

Why not a reissue of the AWSOME S1-C to celebrate M&K's 30th anniversary?

Originally posted by Capfacsurf
There don't appear to be any new highend consumer products in the works. They are planning a new pro audio monitor, but I have seen nothing that takes the S150 to new heights. There are voices inside M&K (not my head) that are clamoring for an ultra high end flagship speaker. Will Ken Kreisel listen? Who knows......

Why not a reissue of the AWSOME S1-C to celebrate M&K's 30th anniversary?

I know I just took the high ground and spoke out against China's terrible labor practices. BUT if M&K produced something better then the 150s...well
hey what is so bad about twelve hour work days seven days a week?

I would probably go and buy it as the evil home theater addict I have become:)

Next thing you know M&K will be selling at wal-mart:D

Thoughts:

M&K: Having used and listened to a number of speakers both at home and in studios I have to say that M&K is clearly my favorite and the favorite of nearly everyone in the movie soundtrack industry. I've been waiting on some SS150's for home since December and while the wait will be worth it in the end, I'm certainly glad they're getting materials in again.

US Obsessions: I live part-time in Europe and the comparisons to the US are really amazing. While not ever wanting to over-pay, Europeans will almost always go for quality over cost and many mfr's know this and don't sell some of their cheaper stuff there. Europeans place a much higher value on quality of life in general. They value family more than stuff, they rarely work more than 35-40 hrs per week, almost no store or business is open on Sundays and few are open on Saturdays. There is not keep up with the Joneses mentality (except among the royals). What do we get for all of our (US) hard work, long hours in the office, constant focus on cost? 3 times the divorce rate, 5 times as many rapes, 7 times as many murders, 8 times as many serious assualts. But we have a wal-mart on every corner...

I am in the process of purchasing some M&K 850's. I have spoken quite a bit with Barry at M&K. We didn't discuss the mfg. in China, but the one big change he did mention was greatly lessening the number of products they are offering. He said they were going to narrow the amount of different speakers to speed up mfg. time, and cut down on confusion. I am not sure which products are going away, but he did say the 750, 850, and 150 speakers are going to stay.

Greg

I don't know about all that, but I do know the Europeans have better beer. And I hope M&K doesn't ever lower themselves to selling through Wal-Mart! Next thing you know people will be comparing them to Polk or Boston.

I think the fact that M&K hasn't revamped the product line in a while is a testament to how good their products are in the first place. My MX-125 MKII subwoofer has been in the product line for a long time, and I expect it will remain in the product line, and in my home theater, well into the future. It's nice when you buy a product from a manufacturer to not have that manufacturer come out with a "new and improved" version months later that they claim will put the one you just bought to shame. It's nice to know that the company feels they got your product right in the first place, no reason to dump it from the product line or improve it.

Of course, most high-end speaker companies operate this way as speakers are the lowest tech item in the high-tech A/V world (from a changing technology standpoint, that is).

May want to learn some lessons from Japan high-end Audio Visual Manufactures. Some of them have already pull back from low cost countries manufacturing bases such as China, Malaysia etc to their own base country, Japan. Reasons being cited were compromised to quality and intellectual property rights.

Hope that M&K would consider thrice before moving their manufacturing bases to low cost countries.

I think people have gotten the wrong impression. M&K is not outsourcing everything to Asia! They have been forced, in a number of instances, to follow the available supply of components to Asia, after domestic suppliers disappeared. The company still does all the assembly and quality checking here in the Los Angeles area. Your S150's will not be stamped "made in China". Maybe a tweeter or driver, maybe an amplifier in a subwoofer, but not the whole speaker! The K Series is another story.....

Originally posted by Capfacsurf
I think people have gotten the wrong impression. M&K is not outsourcing everything to Asia! They have been forced, in a number of instances, to follow the available supply of components to Asia, after domestic suppliers disappeared. The company still does all the assembly and quality checking here in the Los Angeles area. Your S150's will not be stamped "made in China". So much for being more competitive.:( I think it's great that they're still made in the USA, but $900 for an ugly 12 inch cube box? I think they're way overpriced. Maybe they should investigate the factory direct model. Then they'd be able to sell them for around $500 each.

Overpriced? I think M&K is actually pretty inexpensive, when you compare the quality of the sound to other speakers. I measure the value of a speaker based upon what comes out of the drivers, rather than what surrounds the drivers. In my eyes, M&Ks are a great deal.

Originally posted by Capfacsurf
Overpriced? I think M&K is actually pretty inexpensive, when you compare the quality of the sound to other speakers. I measure the value of a speaker based upon what comes out of the drivers, rather than what surrounds the drivers. In my eyes, M&Ks are a great deal. Well, I've owned a complete set of 3 150s up front, 2 SS250s on the sides, and a pair of S85s in the rear. I was driving them with a Lexicon processor. Frankly, I think given the build quality, the finish and the sound that they are way overpriced. I think the fact that they can't seem to produce enough of them is indicative of the fact, that given the wage structure here, $900 does not allow them to pay enough to attract the help to sell them at that $900 price. Hence the lack of availablity.

I would ask that you compare them to the Ascend 340: similar cabinet, same excellent frequency response, made in the USA: $300 each. Reason: the direct model. Or, NHT M6: 2 6" woofers, a 4" mid-range, and 1" tweeter (I think they're all made by VIFA), for $600. Great price and value: Made in China. Dealers can sell them, make a profit, NHT can sell them, make a profit, and they're 50% less than the S150s. Oh, and I forgot to mention: Stereophile Class A rated.

I think M&K makes good stuff. I don't think they're competitive in the current marketplace at their selling prices.

They are expensive compared with many other brands, but at least for me they're worth it. They're apparently worth it for many others since they have a significant waiting list (and have had for about 3 years now). Despite numerous delivery problems over the past 3 years people keep buying them and people are still placing orders for them now even knowing that it might take a while to get them.

Speakers are a very personal decision. I know a sound engineer who's highly respected in the industry and who is in love with the Boston's in his home theatre (and given the cost diff I wish I loved Boston's). M&K's are extremely accurate and the diff in they and the Ascends cannot be measured by instruments, only human hearing. Many people consider them to be harsh and compared to the Ascends they probably are. My wife prefers PSB's to the M&K's (which really made the cost an issue) and I'd bet she'd choose the Ascends as well.

Now, you also mentioned build quality and finish which are much more objective. What about these do you feel is inferior to the Ascends?

Actually, I think they're very similar in build quality. I have heard that Dave Fabrikant is a former M&K employee and this would not surprise me as the fit and finish of the Ascends seems very similar to the M&K at 1/3rd the price! The boxes even look similar.

Re the waiting list, I think it has more to do with production issues rather than demand. If you have 10 people that want them and none in the warehouse (or being built because of a lack of qualified employees) you have a significant waiting list.

Again, I think they're a fine speaker and enjoyed them while I owned them. I did find the THX dispersion pattern to be less than ideal for two channel music (although not as big a problem for multi-channel), but ultimately I was bothered by a certain dryness that moved me to other speakers.

Considering the sound quality and the pedigree, I can't see how one can say the M&K's are overpriced. The build quality is rock solid, so they may not be made from rare South American furniture grade wood, but I don't think the majority of M&K buyers are looking for that. Most are looking for professional, studio monitor quality speakers that deliver accurate, uncolored sound suitable for high-end home theater. If one is primarly looking for a 2-channel setup, they're probably not the ideal choice and that individual certainly wouldn't want or need THX certified speakers anyway. If one were to buy a THX certified speaker and then complain about the vertical dispersion pattern, that individual obviously didn't make an informed decision.

Exotic woods and finishes do absolutely nothing for the sound quality, only drive up the price. If one thinks they're ugly, that's their opinion and there are certainly plenty of manufacturers out there that put a higher emphasis on selling pretty looking speakers. Personally, I like their looks and obviously alot of other people do as well. I like the no-frills monitor look of 3 mid-bass drivers and 2 tweeters facing at me from every location.

I don't really see myself ever owning another brand of speaker and I'm convinced it would take alot more money to find a speaker that would impress me more than the M&K's.

With regards to demand and wait time, I don't see how the demand aspect can be minimized. I doubt too many people walk into a retailer without knowing anything about M&K and walk out of the store with a truck full of M&K speakers. I doubt there's too much "darn, the M&K's are out of stock, I guess I'll buy the Bose instead." I would bet that most M&K buyers/owners are well aware of their professional monitor pedigree and of the fact that they are used by practicall every major film studio and sound processing company (Dolby, DTS, THX).

If there wasn't a demand for them, the buyers on that wait list would simply chose another option. Obviously, there are plenty of consumers as well as professionals who feel that waiting on M&K's is worth it. When I bought mine I was told that I would probably have to wait 3 months for my M&K S150AC but I knew it was worth the wait, even though I could have chosen from many other brands/options. Luckily, the wait was only 2 weeks and it was definitely worth it. Another indicator of demand can be found on the used market. I look for M&K's all the time on eBay and they can regularly be found for more than 75% of their retail price. Most other speakers are lucky to go for 50% of their retail price.

I'll add one other thing, I think the amplification used makes a huge difference in getting the most out of the M&K's. I initially was driving my 7.2 M&K S150/SS150 HT system with a Pioneer Elite 56TXi but I later added Bryston amplifiers and the difference in sound quality was immediately appearant. The 56TXi is a good A/V receiver and in tests has lived up to or slightly exceeded it's amplification ratings, but the Bryston's really woke them up and added even more detail along with an increase in mid-range depth. I also think they sound great with good DVD-A and SACD recordings which brings up another point, if the recording was bad the M&K's are simply going to reproduce that, they're not going to color it up like alot of other speakers will. Unfortunately, some people don't like that fact and blame the speaker.

I'm simply saying that for the sound quality provided, there are better (read less expensive options). I am very familiar with them, having owned a complete 7 channel setup. And no, I didn't get anywhere near 75% of their value on ebay. It was closer to 50%, and they were in perfect shape (as in like new).

They are a great company to deal with, stand behind their product, and have a great reputation. Given my listening preferences, though, (85% music and 15% movies), there were better options (to my ears) at far lower prices. Just my opinion. YMMV. Again, if they sold direct at 60% of what they ask for them, I think they'd sell way more, but that's just me.

Originally posted by tonygeno
Again, if they sold direct at 60% of what they ask for them, I think they'd sell way more, but that's just me.
I agree, especially with their reputation.

Capfacsurf, you must live near the M&K factory in California (perhaps you were hired) but your endorsements are oddly favorable (for a moribund company) and have fallen flat with me.

This is what I see with M&K at their web site:

New products!

1. M&K introduces the MP-4512.
Room-filling audiophile-quality five-channel surround sound from a single cabinet !
Simply Amazing !

2. Most subs on their site are listed as discontinued. No flagship sub (just the mediochre 350) and all of their new subs are of the wimpy variety...the heaviest topping out at a whopping 45 lbs! Their latest is Wonderfully compact sizes. The VX-760 / 860 are 15" x 15" by 17-1/4" deep; The KX-10 is only 10-1/8" x 13-3/4" x 10 " deep!

3. Award winning mini monitors that when you add a foam plug to their port, they are automatically crossed over at 80 hz and ready for a M&k sub.

What a crappy line up! These are the products you are bragging about??

They have totally gotten away from performance and are rarely upgrading their higher performance products. Most higher end products listed have been available for the last 5-10 years. They have sunk to pleasing the masses. Those above offerings are an embarrassment.

It is obvious that they are going the Best Buy route. This used to be a respectable company with forward looking products but looking at their latest offerings, I'd say they are a Bose wanna be!!

Originally posted by thebland
Capfacsurf, you must live near the M&K factory in California (perhaps you were hired) but your endorsements are oddly favorable (for a moribund company) and have fallen flat with me.

This is what I see with M&K at their web site:

New products!

1. M&K introduces the MP-4512.
Room-filling audiophile-quality five-channel surround sound from a single cabinet !
Simply Amazing !

2. Most subs on their site are listed as discontinued. No flagship sub (just the mediochre 350) and all of their new subs are of the wimpy variety...the heaviest topping out at a whopping 45 lbs! Their latest is Wonderfully compact sizes. The VX-760 / 860 are 15" x 15" by 17-1/4" deep; The KX-10 is only 10-1/8" x 13-3/4" x 10 " deep!

3. Award winning mini monitors that when you add a foam plug to their port, they are automatically crossed over at 80 hz and ready for a M&k sub.

What a crappy line up! These are the products you are bragging about??

They have totally gotten away from performance and are rarely upgrading their higher performance products. Most higher end products listed have been available for the last 5-10 years. They have sunk to pleasing the masses. Those above offerings are an embarrassment.

It is obvious that they are going the Best Buy route. This used to be a respectable company with forward looking products but looking at their latest offerings, I'd say they are a Bose wanna be!!

Jeff, One of these days, you need to come out of that shell and speak your mind ! :cool:

If a speaker company already offers options for the markets it intends to target, the only reason the company would need to introduce a new product is if there were a change or advance in the technology or in the market's demand. Producing new models every year, absent a technological advance, is merely a marketing tool. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Obviously there are many people who feel the need to drive the latest car model every year even though the changes from last years model are inconsequential. Speaker technology hasn't really changed much in years.

With regards to the MP-4512, it's obviously designed to fit the lower-end market for apartment dwellers, etc who do not have the option of using 5 or 7 speakers to achieve a surround effect. I don't think anyone is going to compare a system using 5 or 7 dedicated speakers to this product which simulates surround effects using wall reflections. Although I must admit that it does have a Bose-like quality about it (i.e. Wave Radio).

Many companies continue to offer information regarding discontinued products on their websites. I think it says alot of positive things about a company that offers consumers the ability to download owners manuals, specifications, etc for their older products because they acknowledge the fact that manuals sometimes get lost, etc and it also shows some support for the sceondary market which aids in sustaining a product's resale value.
Further, I have read/heard of several instances, many on this website, in which someone with an older product needed service and M&K continued to support that discontinued product, many times at no cost to the consumer even though the item was far past it's warranty period.

Additionally, as has been previously announced, M&K is in fact currently restructuring their product offering. That usually does mean they are going to discontinue some products, and subsequently add new ones. So maybe they haven't made any wholesale changes in their product lineup in a couple of years, but it appears they are preparing to do so now. Considering the companies history and pedigree, as well as the fact that they practically invented the satellite/subwoofer concept, I think they deserve the benfit of the doubt and the time to effect these changes. Obviously M&K is not Sony and product restructuring and R&D is a more significant undertaking and risk for them.

The MX-5000 was their flagship sub until very recently. To be honest, they must have just discontinued it within the last couple of months because I was just on their site a month or so ago downloading a manual/spec sheet and it was not indicated as being discontinued. It, along with the MX-350, have received very good reviews over the years and would hardly be classified as mediocre. I seriously doubt George Lucas would use them in his personal HT if they were considered mediocre.

Most sub or speaker companies offer compact subs for the reasons given above regarding the MP-4512. Not everyone has the option or requirements for a dual 15" driver 1000watt subwoofer. Almost any company you can think of in any market is going to have entry-level products, whether it be cars, boats, or home theater equipment. Even my favorite company (Cigarette Racing Team) recently introduced an entry level product lately, their 30' Vice at $200,000.


Now with all that said, if they do indeed go the Bose route, or start showing up at the mainstream big-box stores (I know about Magnolia) I'll be disappointed. Conversely though, it's a fact that not everyone has access to high-end audio stores. In the retail world, it seems that Wal-Mart, Target, and Best Buy are taking over and driving everyone else out of business. From what I can see, even Circuit City and Tweeter are having difficulties competing against the 3 I mentioned, and they are hardly hi-end niche stores. The fact is that we're living in a consumer based, convenience-driven economy. Everyone wants it cheap and they want it now. Obviously, those of us here on AVS are not the typical consumer when it comes to audio/video/HT equipement and we know what the difference between a Bose and a Krell, for instance are, and what you get for the price difference. But unfortunately, for a company to survive and prosper they have to adapt to the realities of the market place. Every company has to find the right balance between profits and maintaining it's mission and identity. M&K has had a long and wonderful history of producing reference-quality speakers and subs, I doubt they are going to abandon that corporate philosphy and become a Bose wannabe. At least I hope not ;).

I am led to believe that M&k is replacing the entire subwoofer line, including the 5000. I have always found their products to be fantastic. The 150 system is pretty hard to beat for movies (imo). Anyway love this site as it is a great place to learn.

Big Deal, I wouldn't take M&K speakers for free.

If someone offers you free M&K's, please keep me in mind. I'll take 'em.

Monty, hope you will share them with me.

Originally posted by thebland


It is obvious that they are going the Best Buy route. This used to be a respectable company with forward looking products but looking at their latest offerings, I'd say they are a Bose wanna be!!

Ouch....that's below the belt;)

Ah, the Cynics of Cyberspace! Am I in the employ of M&K? Hardly. Though I am attempting to become their supplier of the most valued of all commodities. These posts are made without the knowledge or consent of M&K. Just in case they ever cruise AVS, I am carefull what I say, as I am literally sworn to secrecy.

I bought my first M&K speakers in 1982. Jonas Miller rang up my sale on Wilshire Blvd. The company refurbished those first units 20 years later for under $100, and becasue they stood behind their products, I stand behind them. Their service is great. And for my mix of music and movies, the speakers are awsome.

I think 'theblab' is missing the spirit of this thread. If the self proclaimed ' king of -ass' wants to run some smack on M&K, he should consult a dictionary, check his "mediochre" spulling, then find a thread where speakers are being compared. I started this thread simply to let other satisfied M&K users know that M&K continues to be a viable player for 30 years and may go another 30 years.

:D:D

When I was speaker shopping, I was looking at the M&K's. (S-150's) I wanted them bad because I have heard them numerous times at some of the Michigan home theater meets.
However, when I searched around the area dealers that sold M&K, I was always told that there was no guarantee they could get them for me. I even spoke with reps from M&K about getting speakers directly, with no luck.
They pushed me back toward the local dealers.
I even found the M&K refurbished site. I found some 150's there and actually purchased them only to find out there was an issue and they said the speakers in question were not supposed to be posted on the site. They did say they would make it right with me.
Funny, I kept waiting for them to make amends with the issue and they never did. Customer service at M&K needs some improvement in my opinion.

I bought else-where.

Craig

Originally posted by Capfacsurf
Ah, the Cynics of Cyberspace! Am I in the employ of M&K? Hardly. Though I am attempting to become their supplier of the most valued of all commodities. These posts are made without the knowledge or consent of M&K. Just in case they ever cruise AVS, I am carefull what I say, as I am literally sworn to secrecy.

I bought my first M&K speakers in 1982. Jonas Miller rang up my sale on Wilshire Blvd. The company refurbished those first units 20 years later for under $100, and becasue they stood behind their products, I stand behind them. Their service is great. And for my mix of music and movies, the speakers are awsome.

I think 'theblab' is missing the spirit of this thread. If the self proclaimed ' king of -ass' wants to run some smack on M&K, he should consult a dictionary, check his "mediochre" spulling, then find a thread where speakers are being compared. I started this thread simply to let other satisfied M&K users know that M&K continues to be a viable player for 30 years and may go another 30 years.

I made my post as a former M&K owner to let those who are after performance know that M&K is a loser, has-been company that is ready to start catering to the lowest common denominator. Reading through their website was very telling. No new high end products, the 350 is their current flagship and that sub has been out for over 6-7 years, and a speaker taht acts like a center channel but gives you the 5.1 effect??? C'mon....this sounds like Bose.. It clearly shows there is no innovation on the top end and it is about moving lots of cheap products. As a supplier wannabe, your original post oozed of bias and your 'sworn to secrecy' comment is just plain laughable.

Bottom line, they are a company that is leaving the high end for the shelves of Best Buy. Those that bought M&K years back got very good subwoofers and speakers.....but looking at their latest product line up, I can't imagine any former buyer being interested in any of their latest offerings (unless a center speaker that can provide the sound of 5 speakers....:rolleyes:

Signed,

the mediochre 'blab' :D

Originally posted by 4DHD
Big Deal, I wouldn't take M&K speakers for free.

well then you should be pleased to know that they arent and im curious... you obviously read the name of the thread which implied an m&k content why then would you come here? more and more I find people making mindless comments in what I feel is an attempt to derail a thread or just be mean spirited , I have owned jbl equipment before, my first pair I purchased in Japan while in the marines the jbl L150 was an amazing speaker for 2 channel back in the 80's, I have since stepped away from Jbl but would never make a statement as you have made, your kind of constructive criticism is not welcome and would only serve to disrupt the true intent of this thread, maybe im making a mountain out of a molehill here but this is how things start and I wanted to nip this in the bud, there arent a lot of m&k threads open and we dont need a moderator closing one because of comments like this which can only escalate negatively. To everyone else I apologize that this had to come out this way im just fed up and im sure that I will get another negative reply but it will go unanswered and by the way my setup is M&K S150P'S and MX-5000THX MKII sub and im "not giving them away for free" :D

This sounds completely fishy to me! I'd *love* to know the *real* story of what is going on.

Originally posted by thebland


Bottom line, they are a company that is leaving the high end for the shelves of Best Buy. Those that bought M&K years back got very good subwoofers and speakers.....but looking at their latest product line up, I can't imagine any former buyer being interested in any of their latest offerings (unless a center speaker that can provide the sound of 5 speakers....:rolleyes:

Signed,

the mediochre 'blab' :D

A couple points to the quote above:

1. M&K is NOT at Best Buy yet, and I don't see that happening.
2. You mention M&K's latest offerings - which in all fairness, I agree, aren't too thrilling - but forget to mention that the current line up (i.e. the S-150's) are amazing speakers still to this day. I look at a company like Aerial, who also makes great speakers, and while new products have come from them, there is nothing "revolutionary" in their designs. So they added a new finish or two, and added a driver here or there. One example, of course, but hopefully the point is made.

While maybe not in the "esteemed" realm as they once were, M&K is certainly not a Bose, and in the end, will continue their reputation of offering quality products that compete with competitors several times the price.

Yeah, but I think the S150 has been around longer than Aerial Acoustics! :)

What are those, like 10 years old now?

Yo, Blab:

No doubt: I am a huge M&K fan. Which is exactly why I am trying to work with them. I would be as proud to list them as a client, as I am to showcase the nine M&K speakers surrounding me now.

I am sorry you are no longer a M&K owner. Perhaps we could take up a collection, to help you get your speakers back from the pawn shop. It figures that smeone from dee-twat Michigan would criticise a manufacturer for not offering new models every year. After all, planned obsolecence is a regional specialty for you, eh? And while Bose speakers do suck, their business model has apparently been a success. And since a business owners primary goal is to make a profit, that would not be a bad company to emulate. Or would you suggest Ford, or De Lorean as a business model?

So maybe someday M&K will show up in Best Buy. That would propably mean an extra $10mm or so of annual sales, which could fund quite a bit of R&D into some new high end offerings. Beside, if they do ever make it into Best Buy, that is good news for you: you can buy some more M&Ks with your employee discount!

Originally posted by Capfacsurf
After all, planned obsolecence is a regional specialty for you, eh? Beside, if they do ever make it into Best Buy, that is good news for you: you can buy some more M&Ks with your employee discount! [/B]
:D :D :D

Originally posted by Capfacsurf
Yo, Blab:

No doubt: I am a huge M&K fan.

We know.

Which is exactly why I am trying to work with them. I would be as proud to list them as a client, as I am to showcase the nine M&K speakers surrounding me now.

Well, if showcasing has-been designs is you bag, you have picked the right company to run a distribution for. With 9 speakers of your own, you have obviously rounded up all of the remaining stock.
.

And while Bose speakers do suck, their business model has apparently been a success. And since a business owners primary goal is to make a profit, that would not be a bad company to emulate.......
So maybe someday M&K will show up in Best Buy.

I rest my case....Best Buy (and the local trailer park)....Here M&K comes!!!:rolleyes:

What a sad demise for a company that was at the forefront of home theater......I suppose they heading the rally to bring back 8-track players too??

Blab

Bland as usual goes to the extreme and detracts from any valid arguments he may have made.

I openly admit to being a proud owner of three S-150s, four SS-200s, and an MX-350. Has M&K been aggressively putting out new products? No. However, many reputable speaker manufacturers tend to just tweak speakers lines over a period of time. Processor and projectors are on a fast track with new features and products, but lets face it amps and speakers tend to not be. Is it fair to look at a what's new web page once to see what a manufacturer has done over the past so many years? equally No. M&K has also made tweaks over the years (these come to mind). They updated the 750s to 850s, they created plasma versions of their 150s, and column based surround speakers.

While the MX-350 may not be up to the demands of the king of bass it is a decent sub for its price range.

Now to get into the Best-Buy comments. Is this not the same Bland that recently defended the new Klipsch Ultra speakers? That had an interest in trying out the surround speakers? You know, the Klipsch that many suggest sold out to the masses (i.e., Best-Buy).

Klispch has already done everything you claim that M&K will do, yet you've defended Klipsch and thrown M&K under the bus for something they haven't even done.

Maybe you'll sell your Runts after a few years because you need constant change or maybe you'll keep them and have to defend them after they are 10 years old and not the latest and greatest out there. Regardless of the fact that they are just as good now as they were then.

Who cares how old the design is if a person likes the sound. Lots of people even recommend buying used speakers and amps because you can get more in value for the dollar. Who cares if a manufacturer has a cheaper line they sell at Best-Buy but has higher quality models for those that desire them.

In the end, My M&Ks work great for me and fit my budget. Just enjoy your Runts and forget about trying to put done other brands.

Smith,

M&K has made fine speakers. No doubt. I am sure yours sound fine. It is their current state that worries me. Heck, I owned Citation 7.1 LCRs for 10 years. They were great and I enjoyed them until the very end. So it is not old speakers that I have a problem with.

If you read my comments a little more closely, it is the company that has shown little interest in new design and bringing better, higher quality products to market. They have seemingly stopped all high end production of new models. C'mon...the MX-5000 is a 12 year old sub and the MX 350 is over 5 years old.....Those were there high caliber products...The only 'tweaks' they have made is to lower end stuff and those tweaks have been exceedingly rare. From what I see from their web site and what Capsurfetcf is spouting, the company is certainly ready for a new direction.....away from the higher end or the area that once made them great.

I like Klipsch. As a matter of fact I bought those surrounds (KS-525THX). I like them because they are a forward design, newly engineered product and meet the latest THX Ultra II specs. I also own a Sony projector...and they sell plenty at Best Buy. However, M&K appears to be targeting Best Buy as an exclusive venue for sales. No high end, just equipment for the average buyer..

Who the hell said anything about Best Buy other than you? Little delusional there Jeff?

Originally posted by Soundstage
Who the hell said anything about Best Buy other than you? Little delusional there Jeff?

I am curious as to how many of those 180+ posts have been accumulated constructively, with-out your usual trolling tactics?

Craig :)

And Jeff who's to say there won't be more development? It's been a long time but if they've had financial troubles this might be exactly what they need to get working on some revisions. I don't seem them going the way of Bose whatsoever.

Best Buy is my prediction based on the heavy amount of PR found at their website on the all-in-one center channel speaker and their new mini monitors!! The fact that Ccapasenljgl is pushing them as a 'reinvented company' is the topping.

Hey,

I am only pointing out what I see....

In going through their products page, I counted 27 discontinued items.....

Of that large number, the products gone are heavily weighted to the high end. Only the cheaper stuff is managing to stay alive.

I have given my reasons for why M&K is heading towards the toilet....

Is there anyone here that can give me some solid reasons as to refute this??

I mean the MX-350 and S-250 are their current best offerings....and boy are they old. All I see are new mini monitors and mini subs....

Originally posted by thebland
Best Buy is my prediction based on the heavy amount of PR found at their website on the all-in-one center channel speaker and their new mini monitors!! The fact that Ccapasenljgl is pushing them as a 'reinvented company' is the topping.

Having a lower end line for an infusion of cash for money to spend on R and D is a good thing. API, Paradigm. PSB et al have done it for years.

Originally posted by Soundstage
Having a lower end line for an infusion of cash for money to spend on R and D is a good thing. API, Paradigm. PSB et al have done it for years.

Wishful thinking...Cash flow is good...it'll remain to be seen if M&K enters the high end world again. Perhaps...but not for some years as they obviously have other issues going on currently.

Originally posted by thebland
Wishful thinking...Cash flow is good...it'll remain to be seen if M&K enters the high end world again. Perhaps...but not for some years as they obviously have other issues going on currently.

I have faith in them as a company. I'd much rather see them reorganize than go through what Meadowlark just did.

Perhaps Bland is noting that M&K is a featured brand of Magnolia in their regular stores, and we have all heard that the Magnolia HT showrooms in the Best Buys wil feature many non BB brands that are Magnolia brands.

Maybe, maybe not...

Perhaps someone who has been to one of the 40 or so MagHT locations that are already open could clarify whether or not M&K is a part of their line up.

Personally, I have sold M&K during the heyday when they had some of the best subs available, and I don't think their models are even as good as 5-10 yrs. ago, much less improved to remain near the top of the heap.

I have switched over to Triad around 5 years ago and I haven't looked back.

When I was visiting the Triad factory in Portland, I noticed that the MDF sheets that they make the speakers with had a paper thin black vinyl laminate on one side.

It was pointed out to me that this is an assembly aid at Triad, not a finish.

After the CNC routing, the thin flexible veneer is all that is left, which helps hold the sides perfectly parallel for consistently high integrity in cabinet assembly.

THEN they spray or lay a finish over this surface.
Many brands, notably M&K, leave this as the finish and I have always thought it looked terrible!!

The ignorance in this thread is amazing. Speaker technology ain't really changed an imp in the past 10 years. Alot of new stuff has come out, some companies have intro'd new speakers that are better than their old speakers and some companies have gone 'downmarket' because that's where the money is (it's like someone critisizing Maroon 5 for making a ton of money in pop instead of doing a Pat Methany kind of purist route). If you go to 5.1 soundstages you'll find that they're all still using the same speakers they were 10 years ago and see no need to change. When new control rooms are built they're putting in pretty much the same stuff as they were 10 or 15 years ago - and alot of it is M&K.

I don't know what's happening with M&K's finances or sources, but I took a quick look at their consumer site and what I saw disco'd was primarily low-mid stuff that just cleaned up their line (and IMO they could clean it up some more). The only high-end stuff that went is the 5000 series which was really only high-end from a marketing standpoint. The 150 series is and always has been the flagship consumer product and I think many theatre designers were spec'ing 2 MX350's instead of a single MX5000 so no loss there.

Alot of companies, M&K included, will continue to come out with alot of new stuff because US consumers like new stuff. I'll be surprised though if 10 or even 15 years from now there have been any even remotely significant advances in speaker technology. Then everyone can complain that M&K is still selling the same 150's they have been for 25 years...

Have you been living under a rock? Digital active designs, drivers dropping in price, new computer design techniques, new manufacturing technologies, diamond/beryllium tweeters, etc, etc, etc. Haven't seen M&K take advantage of any of it. Others have. Sometimes just for marketing, but some real progress is seriously happening and it's about to go over the top.

Asian,

Just keep telling your self that speaker technology, design, engineering, CAD, etc has stopped for the lat 10 years and your current M&Ks have not been superseded...

M&K was passed up years ago...

Joel, all that stuff is great, but what matters is how the end result sounds and more importantly how it sounds to the listener. For me the best speaker for a HT is M&K 150/250/350 series. I'm kindof a gear junkie and love to listen to different stuff and try out different things and I've yet to hear anything that sounds better. Most of the sound engineers I know will tell you something similar. I don't know of a single one who's found anything new that's significantly better (That said, while many prefer M&K, many also like other speakers including one who still swears by some old URIE's).

Perhaps one day all of that new technology will pay off with something that sounds better, but I and many other sound engineers haven't seen it yet. Now, where there have been changes are in 2 areas; 1) Price, which you mentioned and you certainly can get more value today. 2) Line arrays for concerts have improved dramatically over the past 10 years, but that's a completely different world.

Originally posted by Aslan
Joel, all that stuff is great, but what matters is how the end result sounds and more importantly how it sounds to the listener.

As Jeff said, M&K was passed up years ago.

Driver technology has made some serious strides in the past decade!!...

Heavy roll surrounds, flat spiders, progressive spiders, voice coil venting, underhung coils /long gap motors... Jesus, this list goes on and on... and that's just DRIVERS.
We have better built cabinets, better technology to determine what combinations of materials make better cones, domes, sturdier cabinets and more effective bracing methods, again this can go on and on...

If the speakers from last decade are so great, why is everyone lining up to copy the new generation of European drivers like the Scan Speak Revelator, the DST dual concentric ring tweeters, the Peerless XLS subwoofer??

Oh, and in the past decade, Harman group put a SH*TLOAD of money into the R&D over at Revel and JBL Pro. Pretty much EVERYTHING from Revel is groundbreaking compared to what was out there 10 years ago.

Its funny, when any one asks what speakers to buy they get the same old response, listen and buy what sounds best to you that is within your budget constraints.

I don't recall hearing anyone provides advice like look for speakers with digital active designs, using new computer design techniques, new manufacturing technologies, or diamond/beryllium tweeters. So why are we discussing this now.

M&K is only passed up when they are no longer making sales. My system is two years old. Was it new technology when I bought them? No. Has the design and technology been around a while? Yes. Are they the best value around? Probably not. So what, I bought them because I liked the sound in my HT and they fit my budget. Obviously, there are others that feel the same way. End of story.

I do think there are issues at M&K but it is not with there speaker designs or technology as much as it is that they can't keep inventory up. Maybe they need to try another business model. In my case, I feel comfortable with what I have to last the next 10 years and then I'll keep an open mind and start the search all over again.

Give it a rest and lets stop hypothesizing and just let time tell the story.

Originally posted by smithb
Its funny, when any one asks what speakers to buy they get the same old response, listen and buy what sounds best to you that is within your budget constraints.



Smith...you are obviously and M&K owner.....

Well, that does sound like a simple, obvious line of reasoning. Who would disagree with that??

But if you limit yourself to speakers that sounded great relative to others in their day......well you are missing out on a lot of great new stuff today.

Let me draw a little analogy to help illustrate my point.

I know many people that are perfectly happy with the look of DVD. It looks so excellent and so far ahead of VHS. Crystal clear and sharp......Why change right??? Sorta like you with your older M&ks...right? They sound great, why bother changing...right?

After guests in my house convince themselves and me that the DVD on my screen looks so great, I'll throw in a High Definition copy of the same movie....All of a sudden, the flaws that were scantly noticed stick out like a big wart on the end of one's nose. The DVD that looked so sharp a minute ago is soft, a bit out of focus and coloring looks a bit smeared.

Not that your M&Ks are bad. They are fine. However, there are enough advances in the industry that would make them lose a bit of their original luster. To think otherwise, is to ignore progress....there is always progress.

My point is unless you open your eyes (or ears in this case), you'll always, unknowingly, be pleased as punch with mediocrity........

Bland...as I previously admitted, yes I am a happy M&K owner. I also understand your meaning that one needs to get their head...er...ears out of the sand once and a while in order to understand how good things can be.

However, as I also stated my M&K's are two years old which means I was making comparisons to current and newer models of other speaker brands (definitely not as gray in the tooth as some would prefer to say of my M&Ks). And yet I chose the M&K's to purchase. So at least for the comparisons I made, my ears felt the M&Ks held their own against the brands I heard as recently as two years ago. Obviously, a degree of change is always happening within the industry and it is up to one's personality and financial abilities to determine how often the changes make there way into ones home.

Obviously, the best I can state is that my ears and wallet prefered the M&K's I purchased over the 10 or so brands/models I compared them to. Unfortunately, it is difficult to make comparisons to the 100's or 1000's of brands out there.

I hear you about the comparison of DVDs to high definition sources. Like you I have a home theater setup and watch DVDs as well as some HD content (however my Sharp 10K pales in comparison to your Qualia). One trend I have seen more and more lately is the degree people put an emphasis on PQ over all else. Don't get me wrong I like to have the best PQ I can afford to the extent of double and triple dipping on DVDs (many in my circle think I've gone completely overborad with my setup).

However, recently I've read many call particular DVDs crap and unwatchable now (after watching HD content) that were more then acceptable just a year or so ago. I just finished watching "Captain Blood" a 1935 B/W Errol Flynn flick on DVD. There is only so much you can do to improve the PQ of this movie with electronics but I would not let that stop me from enjoying it. I guess what I am saying is, content (a good movie) is why I'm involved in all this, PQ and sound while important to the experience are still secondary. Therefore, I can go some years here and there before needing to upgrade the electronics but keep quality programmimg available.

Now if I win the lottery...well...all bets are off, newest and greatest every year. However, until then you know the saying "one mans ceiling is another mans floor". I prefer to think of it as my ceiling.

Smith,

Fair points. I am sure you are happy. Yours are a nice line of speaker.

My point here is what does (or doesn't) M&K have lined up for the future? They had an excellent pedigree, heck I owned a pair of their subs at one time and like 'em quite a bit.

I see them not going back to their roots of high quality, moderately priced equipment. It seems to be a brand that Home theater enthusiasts from this point forward should avoid. Certainly, some of there older equipment is very good but the company seems headed in a lower end direction and those that peruse this site should know this. If they still must have M&Ks...there are a few lines that would still do the trick (e.g. MX-350, S-150, 250, etc.).

Bland,

Granted those are the only M&K's I would recommend and when it comes to buying new speakers in the future I will start from scratch and see what all is out there.

If M&K has any interesting offerings I will entertain them, if not there are plenty of others available. Maybe I'll even check out the Runts.

Bland, what speakers would you recommend over M&K that are in the same price range?

Skip

Skip,

I would recommend the ones he has now. My point is the company as it is now will probably not be able to improve upon them.

Or, as Tony mentioned earlier, NHT M6 LCRs are $600 each and are in Stereophile Class A. Or Triads. Or........

I was driving to work and saw a fellow digging through a garbage can. Somewhere in that dumpster was something worth keeping, maybe a quick snack or half empty beer. That got me thinking about what "theblab' had said in his posts. So back I went to rummage through his comments and admittedly, found something worthwhile.

As much of an M&K supporter as I am, I had no idea they had discontinued so many speakers, including the MX 5000. I had always wanted one of them. So that came as a big suprise.

Not breakfast, not beer, but something....I will give him that.

Capfacsurf, you haven't lost an opportunity with the MX5k being disco'd. I had one that I really liked, but was looking for a little more hard punch. Listened to numerous subs in stores and then tried Velo's, HSU's, PSB's, and MX350's in my theatre. In the end a pair of MX350's was the winner (and because of the wait I was actually looking for something other than M&K.) This ain't a cheap route to go, but you won't be disappointed and won't feel like you've wasted your $4k. The only sub I didn't try in my theatre that I think might have been a contender was a contrabass which a couple of friends had both tried and thought lacking in accuracy (though with tons of rumble for those who like that kind of stuff). One of those friends ended up with a Velo the other a pair of MX350's.

Ok, if M&K's are so outdated then why do most of the major production studios (where money is no object and they could buy WHATEVER they wanted) still have them installed for mastering the movie soundtracts????

Your arguement doen't hold much water for me. Yes there have been some good improvements in speaker design and minor developments (IMO) in the cabinets, but really, what is the purpose of constanty changing your design if you've got a winner right now. Maybe to compete with the maker of the reference speakers of choice?????

Don't get me wrong, there are other brands out there that are great as well, but before I purchased the speakers for my HT project, a GIANT deciding factor was.... what speakers are the studios using...... and so I have a set of s150's sitting on the floor in the bedroom until the HT is complete.

:)

I think that there are other more commonly used speakers for mastering movie soundtracks such as PMC, ATC, and Genelec. Any of these speakers are better IMO than M&Ks. Heck I preferred my previous Triad Classic Golds to M&K150s, and greatly prefer my Snell XA1900THX speakers which offer greater detail, dynamics, and imaging.

I don't think anyone has said that M&K dominates the mastering studios of the world (though most of the folks I know prefer them.) I've worked with PMC & ATC and they're great speakers, just not seen much in the US yet. Haven't worked with Gens, but they have a good rep with people who like them. They are all good speakers and studios are continuing ordering from all of these mfrs - including M&K.

There are alot of people who don't like M&K's just as there are alot of people who don't like Snells, PMC's, B&W's or every other speaker out there. I personally don't care for mags (and I'm friends with most of the company), but alot of people really like them and for them they're great speakers and there are a few of these whom I have a great deal of respect for.

The problem I'm having is with all of this immature bashing of M&K (or any other company (except perhaps Bose :-)), people saying they wouldn't take them if given for free, stating that they haven't made any changes so therefore their speakers must be out of date. Come on folks, grow up.

I think someone was making fun of them because they intro'd a 5 channel in single box design. This is simply a rebadge of one they've been making for the broadcast industry for remotes. I don't get where the problem is.

Maybe someone should compile a list of movies and DVDs that were mastered on M&K's so that people can avoid them...

Originally posted by cinemascope
Perhaps Bland is noting that M&K is a featured brand of Magnolia in their regular stores, and we have all heard that the Magnolia HT showrooms in the Best Buys wil feature many non BB brands that are Magnolia brands.

Maybe, maybe not...

Perhaps someone who has been to one of the 40 or so MagHT locations that are already open could clarify whether or not M&K is a part of their line up.

M&K is part of the MagHT at Best Buy. In the store I was in, they had the K7, 750, and 850 speakers as well as surrounds and subs. For what it is worth, the setup was very nice. It is located in a seperate part of the store with its own listening rooms. In addition to M&K, they carry Vienna Acoustics, Boston Acoustics, Martin Logan and some other brands.

Greg

Originally posted by Redskin
M&K is part of the MagHT at Best Buy. In the store I was in, they had the K7, 750, and 850 speakers as well as surrounds and subs. For what it is worth, the setup was very nice. It is located in a seperate part of the store with its own listening rooms. In addition to M&K, they carry Vienna Acoustics, Boston Acoustics, Martin Logan and some other brands.

Greg

I guess those brands suck now too.:rolleyes:

Monty,

You again missed the main point of the thread. Reread things..


It is not M&K's current product or where they sell it...It is the fact that the future looks decidely pointed to the lower end for M&K. With that, the Best Buys of the world may end up being their ONLY venue for sales....

Jeff,

It was a tongue in cheek comment. I love my M&K's and that's really all that matters to me as far as this thread goes. There have been many points made on this thread, some I agree with, some I don't. But it really doesn't matter, and I don't feel I was ever argumentative - at leas tthat was not my intent. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and admittedly opinions sometimes change over time due to experience, maturity, stage in life, etc. Regardless of the fact that my M&K's are a ~5 year old design, during the mid-west winters/late fall/early spring, I look forward to going down to my HT and watching a good movie, etc whenever I can.

While they may not be the most current, world-class reference speaker system, they were considered as such until relatively recently and nothing can change that. I'm also into classic Corvette's, and while a '67 BBC Corvette is no longer a world-class sportscar compared to modern examples, I'd rather have mine than nearly anything manufactured today. I have other priorities in life than to chase the latest and greatest home theater components every year. Actually, for the next few months, during boating season, it's not really a priority at all right now. No movie and no HT system compares to running 80+mph in 4-6 waves, at least to me.

Monty Williams, you nailed it! Well said. But 80mph in 6' waves?

For movies, I find m&k hard to beat in their price range. I have compared my 750 & 150 systems to things like klipsch, and have to say the m&k wins every time. The mid range klipsch are just too bright for music, making them fatiguing.
To each his own. Some love klipsch, I could buy them at cost, and passed.
I paid 80% retail for my M&K's, and have no regrets.
I am sure the top of the line klipsch are great, but not worth the money IMHO.
M&K has some of the best customer support. I bought my speakers on-line, and they gave me full support.
M&K has one of the best warranty's in the industry, 10 years is unheard of.
Many company's have speakers that have been around a few years. Do you expect them to upgrade every year? The nautilus prestige came out in 2001? I am sure in 5 years they will still be great speakers.

I'm a little late getting in on all of the fun in this thread, but after reading through this entire thread, I felt compelled to comment.

I have been an audio/video enthusiast for more than 30 years. Ten years ago, when the home-theater boom was just emerging, I replaced all of my speakers with M&k's. I decided to go with M&K after reading many stellar reviews, and giving many hours of my time in auditions. I felt that the M&K speakers were the ones for me.

So, I have enjoyed the same M&K speakers for over ten years. I have replaced each and every component in my home-theater system at least 3 times during that time frame, and my components are arguably the best that money can buy. I am not afraid to spend money on my hobby, and if I think that replacing a component will pay dividends in enhanced listening or viewing enjoyment, I upgrade.

Now to the point. I have been tempted to replace my M&K speaker system with something newer, more up-to-date, with the latest and greatest technology. But, I have yet to audition speakers (and there have been many) in twice their original price range, that would make enough of an improvement over what I currently have, to justify the cost. And really, cost is no object. If I want something, I go get it.

Therefore, I am utilizing 10 year old M&K speakers with much newer components, because I still prefer the M&K sound.

Also, anytime I have contacted M&K regarding a question or concern, they have been fabulous to work with. Even though my speakers are just now out of warranty (ten years), they continue to support them as though I had just purchased them.

I don't know what the future of M&K sound is, and I doubt that any of the posters in the thread know either. Anyone who says different needs to back up their speculation and conjecture with facts. Only time will tell if M&K's business model will change for the better or for the worse. At that time, we can then be the judge.

Regards,

Pilot

Just got back from my second viewing of SW:ROTS and stayed around for the closing credits. All you M&K bashers who consider them outdated, mediocre, heading for the low-end, etc will be disappointed to know that M&K is still credited as the monitor used during mixing and mastering, as they have been for Episodes I and II, along with Parasound amplification and sound processing.

you mean they used my S-150p's and mx-5000thx sub? :p YEA BABY :D , but I really knew that all along and as I have been saying all along these are the last speakers for my theater...now if I could just find another mx-5000thx mkII ;)

Another happy M&K owner (10 years and counting). Best money I ever spent on my setup. I just hope M&K will be around in another 10 years to fix them if something happens.

The S-150's are the speaker to beat hands down for home theater, my M&K's made child's play of my previous conservative set ups which included Dynaudio, Sonus Faber, Boston Acoustics, B&W and Energy. Anyone who thinks that M&K is on the down swing or that they are maxed out engineering wise or even that they are sold at Best Buy is sadly mistaken and misinformed. First of all, due to demand, there are two local high end dealers near me which are two months out on orders. Secondly, I think the fact that many of their products haven't changed all that much is a testament to the level of engineering. The new products that have been introduced have been groundbreaking like my c-25 column surrounds, a totally innovative surround speaker design that is unparalleled.

Folks, M&K is the speaker of choice is some of the leading sound studios in the world, I don't know how you can take a poke at M&K on any level. It is easy to sit back and say mine is better than yours and we all know that speaker choice is a personal preference but to imply that M&K is anything but thriving or to insinuate that their design is antiquated is a complete joke.

Color me "sadly mistaken and uninformed" then :D

I'm looking for new HT speakers and I'm biased toward THX certified speakers because my old speakers seem to get their tweeters fried and I think that maybe THX might be more robust. Anyway the M&K 150 series intrigued me. I haven't heard these yet but certainly will go listen before I buy anything. But I have a couple of questions: first, on one hand I like that they have 3 tweeters because that will reduce the load on any one tweeter and presumably reduce the chance of tweeter failure. But on the other hand, this is a very unorthodox design. Almost every other design uses only one tweeter. So what's that all about; or what are the cons of a 3 tweeter design. The second concern is that the 150's are small - only 12.5" high. Maybe this is a very naive comment, but for the big $$ that the 150's command, you might expect a bigger speaker. So are there any major compromises in the design of the 150's being such a small cabinet and/or are they worth the price?.

Thanks,

Ed

ekb,

It looks to me like the 150 series are designed to compliment plasma/flat panel displays, and are designed for wall mounting, to be used with a sub. I don't think that the size is necessarily a factor, and its probably intentional. If the speaker is voiced for proper freq response when wall mounted they no doubt are taking advantage of boudary effects to meet their 77hz -2db point.

The tweeter design is a little different, kind of like a mini line-array. As long as they are arranged veritically, the con's would be mostly related to off-axis vertical listening (if they are mounted above the seating position, for example); as I would expect there to be lobing and irregular fr off-axis. I'm not sure why they use them, unless its just for power handling or efficiency.

As far as THX having anything to do with speaker robustness, IMO that's not a factor. Any quality speaker should hold up to HT use without blowing tweters, if you don't drive the amp into clipping (underpowered speakers fail more often than "overpowered" ones, from my understanding).

For the 1K price per speaker, your basically looking at a 3K setup of the front soundstage. There's a good deal of competition out there for that kind of money. I'd recommend buying them because you like the way the sound better than the competition, not because of THX, that they are too small, etc (have to admit it's nice to read that someone thinks a speaker is too small vs. the common "how come they have to be so big?" comments :D).

It looks to me like the 150 series are designed to compliment plasma/flat panel displays, and are designed for wall mounting, to be used with a sub. . .
Enigma - thanks for your comments, but I'm not sure that we're talking about the same speakers. The 150's that I'm talking about are somewhere around 12" deep. That doesn't sound like wall mount / plasma compliment speakers.

Ed

I believe the size was driven by their attempts to achieve super accuracy. The larger a box gets (regardless of insulation, baffles, and ports) the more issues you get with interior waves causing problems for the drivers. For the frequencies the 150's cover and at the volumes they cover there really is not need for a larger box.

This basic cube design has been used by M&K for over 20 years (can't wait to hear all the comments about how out dated they are) in their studio monitors with good success.

Enigma - thanks for your comments, but I'm not sure that we're talking about the same speakers. The 150's that I'm talking about are somewhere around 12" deep. That doesn't sound like wall mount / plasma compliment speakers.

Ed

Oops, my bad. There is a "plasma" model of 150, that was the one I saw, then there's the THX version, which, as you say, is about 12" deep, and not designed for wall mounting.

From a driver standpoint and layout, however, they look very similar, with simiar size an number of drivers, and similar freq resp specs. I believe most of my comments still apply, except those regarding why so small (also these are about $100 cheaper). Basically these are monitor speakers; the big difference in form factor between them and most other monitors are that they are wider to accomodate all the drivers. Most monitors have 1 mid-woof and 1 tweeter. Viewed in that light, I wouldn't consider them overpriced for their size, but then again, I've never heard them and don't know if the sound is competetive with other similar priced monitors. They are kind of in a different niche, as most monitors are designed either primarily for music or as surrounds, etc; it looks like they took the monitor concept and included enough drivers to allow a high spl for movies.

The 150THX are actually wall mountable, with either Omnimounts or purpose built M&K mounts. They certainly are not as unobtrusive as the Plasma version, but they look fine on a wall. Also, something like an Omnimount allows complete adjustablilty so that you can point the monitors to the sweet spot, which is essential to getting the most out of the design. In fact, M&K sells a laser tool to allow for very precise positioning of their speakers.

This wasn't clear on first reading of this thread so I tought I would throw this in. The reason there are 3 tweeters on the 150 is because THX demands a limited vertical response of the high frequency section of THX Ultra 1 or 2 speakers. THX select speakers have no such demands. B&W used to make a THX system with 2 tweeters, JBL also had a 2 tweeter design, etc. etc. JBL and Klipsch have THX Ultra systems with one horn. The Klipsch (which I own) use a 90x60 degree horn, I am sure the JBL system is close to that. There are other things that come with a multi tweeter layout such as power handling, but those are secondary to why they use multiple tweeters. Other THX designs like from Atlantic Technology use a WMTMW design, that still gives the needed vertical limitations but yet only uses one tweeter.

I am in the process of purchasing some M&K 850's. I have spoken quite a bit with Barry at M&K. We didn't discuss the mfg. in China, but the one big change he did mention was greatly lessening the number of products they are offering. He said they were going to narrow the amount of different speakers to speed up mfg. time, and cut down on confusion. I am not sure which products are going away, but he did say the 750, 850, and 150 speakers are going to stay.

Greg

Jumped into this conversation a bit late. I have a 750THX system I am very pleased with. Music/HT use is about 30/70% respectively.
I have the V1250 which comes with the 'system' and seems quite adequate but considering adding an additional sub at some point. Hestitant to do a swap out because it seems to match so well, but I do hear of others going with SVS , etc.

I drive the front 3 with a B&K 3220 amp (being fed with a 950 Outlaw pre/pro).
I am wondering if it is worth $1500 to replace the front 3 with 850s. Maintaining the stock 550s in the rear. Would this be a noticeable or beneficial upgrade in your opinion from your own auditions? I would hate to lose the 'piano black' but can compensate.

For $1500, you could get 3 M&K S150's on eBay in very good, if not new condition. There's a brand-new, unopened box S150AC on there right now. The same guy sells new, uponed box S150's all the time.

Videoaddikt,

I don't think it would be worthwhile swapping your 750's for 850's. Not enough of a difference between the two. The M&K website has a refurbished products store. If you really want to upgrade your front end, buy a pair of their reconditioned S1-c mains and put an s125-c in the center. I am using those three, with Surround-55s and Surround 550s. And a v1250, with a another small sub a VX7. This setup sounds awsome with my B&K amplifier.

Videoaddikt,

I don't think it would be worthwhile swapping your 750's for 850's. Not enough of a difference between the two. The M&K website has a refurbished products store. If you really want to upgrade your front end, buy a pair of their reconditioned S1-c mains and put an s125-c in the center. I am using those three, with Surround-55s and Surround 550s. And a v1250, with a another small sub a VX7. This setup sound awsome with my B&K amplifier.

Thanks to all of you for the suggestions..I will review the options.

There will soon be a pair of S1-c's in excellent condition on E-Bay. Any AVS members looking for a preview please pm me.

There will soon be a pair of S1-c's in excellent condition on E-Bay. Any AVS members looking for a preview please pm me.But is M&K here to stay?

Based on how much it costs to create a brand, I am sure M&K will be around for another 25 years. I hope my new Von Schweikerts last as long!

M&K is here to stay, so I bought Von Schweikerts? :confused:

M&K is here to stay, so I bought Von Schweikerts? :confused:

probably for two channel.

probably for two channel.
I've got a comment, but I'll post it in May.

If you really want to have the WOW factor, then upgrade from the 750 to the 150s. I did this and it sounds very good. I am still using the V1250 sub, but I would like to upgrade it soon. The 550s I used them as rear channels in my 7.1 system

... what are the cons of a 3 tweeter design. ...

The M&K three-tweeter design (like two-tweeter and some horn designs) is used to control vertical directivity. The interaction between the output of the multiple drivers in the air causes lobing in the frequency response, cancelling output in their range physically above and below the speakers. With this decreased output, the reflections from the floor and ceiling can be much less damaging to the sound by the time it reaches your ear.

Three tweeters can handle more power before distortion than one, also.

And, M&K chooses to use a lower crossover point than most speakers for the tweeter array, resulting in an arguably more neutral voice reproduction.

The M&K three-tweeter design (like two-tweeter and some horn designs) is used to control vertical directivity. The interaction between the output of the multiple drivers in the air causes lobing in the frequency response, cancelling output in their range physically above and below the speakers. With this decreased output, the reflections from the floor and ceiling can be much less damaging to the sound by the time it reaches your ear.



seriousfun,

Are there any downsides to this dispersion pattern?

Thanks
Bruce

It sounds like seriousfun can give you a more technical reason than I can, but I know with the three tweeters, it is imperative that you either get the speakers at ear level, or angled directly at your ear. The have a very wide horizontal dispersion, but the vertical dispersion is limited on purpose.

And, M&K chooses to use a lower crossover point than most speakers for the tweeter array
What is the Xover on the 150's?

Ed

So speaking of vertical dispersion - it is my understanding that that is part of the THX spec - i.e. to limit it to enhance vocal clarity. I personally like that since it reduces reflected sound, hence reducing room ambiance and letting you hear the recording better.

Ed

Is M&K here to stay? I hope so because I can't imagine a better HT speaker than the S-150's unless you get into crazy money. If you are in the market and are mostly into HT, give these babies a shot.

I couldn't agree more. I own the 850's. If for some reason M&K doesn't make it, it would probably be their marketing model. It certainly won't be because of an inferior product. IMO, they can't be beat for detail and dynamics, which are huge factors in HT. I don't think they are overpriced at all. I have compared them to so many speakers in their price range, it is borderline obsessive compulsive behavior.

BTW soldonandy, what part of the Lehigh Valley are you from? I grew up in Whitehall.

Greg

I've got a comment, but I'll post it in May.

C'mon Tony,

You can't throw that out there without comment. Spill the beans.

Greg

C'mon Tony,

You can't throw that out there without comment. Spill the beans.

GregIt was a joke. The thread was dead for 2 months and mattburk throws out a one-liner to get it going again.

I couldn't agree more. I own the 850's. If for some reason M&K doesn't make it, it would probably be their marketing model. It certainly won't be because of an inferior product. IMO, they can't be beat for detail and dynamics, which are huge factors in HT. I don't think they are overpriced at all. I have compared them to so many speakers in their price range, it is borderline obsessive compulsive behavior.

BTW soldonandy, what part of the Lehigh Valley are you from? I grew up in Whitehall.

Greg

I live in Whitehall now but grew up in Bethlehem. Small world! I used to have the 750's and I lilked them so much I bought the S-150's and never looked back.

It was a joke. The thread was dead for 2 months and mattburk throws out a one-liner to get it going again.
Hell it was dead for seven or eight months before it got resurrected!

I have been researching speakers for three or four months now and M&K were on the list. I was going to get Klipsch Ultra 2s for 70% off MSRP because a neighbor is a vendor but his employer shut down before we could do the deal. I would have loved to get the M&K 150s but that was more than I could financially handle so I was zoned in on the THX Selects (750s). I went to two dealers listed on the M&K website and neither still carried them. I was literally unable to audition the speakers! I was so close to buying the b-stock setup from their website for $1,699 without ever hearing them.

Finally, I went into Nebraska Furniture Mart last week to audition the Infinity Beta system because it got surprisingly good reviews and I greatly preferred the Klipsch Reference Series. I purchased three pairs of RB-25s and an RC-25 (floor models) for 45% off MSRP. I already have an Infinity CSW-10 floor model subwoofer I got for 70% off MSRP. Including sales tax, I have $1,195 in my system compared to the $1,699 I was going to spend on the M&Ks. I will spend the $500 difference on room acoustics.

I think there are two countervailing trends going on and they are probably the source of the great disagreement in this thread. If you look at receiver (or pre-amp) evolution over the past decade there has been a lot of change. I have a Nakamichi receiver with ProLogic and an HK receiver with Dolby Digital that are collecting dust because they have been superceded by others with more advanced features.

But if we look at speaker evolution over the past decade it has been far more evolutionary and not revolutionary. One of the previous posters listed a bunch of obscure advances in various aspects of speakers. Yeah, I am sure those are 'advances' but how audible are they really? Taken together, I agree that it is becoming easier and easier to accurately recreate sound but the weakest link in the whole process is always going to be my hearing (and my room acoustics.)

My gut feeling is that M&K will get taken over by someone. As much as I dislike Jane Harman's politics I have to admit that her husband's firm has done a world of good for JBL and Infinity because of the money they have been able to invest in state-of-the-art engineering and testing facilities. Companies like M&K will never be able to match that. But, they have a great heritage and brand and we simply won't see that disappear. Given that Harman International and M&K are both located in the LA area I could see a Harman acquisition of M&K. It would give M&K access to some state-of-the-art facilities. Plus if you look at Infinity and JBL, neither of those brands have THX Ultra or THX Select products. Revel is intended to be the premium brand in the audio conglomerate but it doesn't have a THX Ultra or THX Select product offering either. Harman could slot in M&K as a niche brand for pro audio with related products in the consumer THX space. JBL and Infinity remain the brands for the big box retailers. Revel has really poor distribution also but if you were to drive Revel and M&K through the same distribution channel it would help both brands.

For whatever it is worth, that is my opinion. :o

I was watching the extra's on my Sons' Star Wars DVD the other day (the latest one) and in the mixing studio where they were interviewing Lucas the S-150's were hanging on the wall. I think M&K nailed it with many of their designs, that is why their main lines have been enduring for the past decade coupled with the fact that technology hasn't changed as much as some would like to believe. The reality is that for HT, the 750's and the S-150's sound as good and subjectively better than anything in their respective price points. I had a nice set of Dynaudio Contours which sounded better musically that the M&K's but couldn't touch them with HT. M&K's are also a tremendous value, you are getting more for your money because they are made in the United States, in fact, the guy who inspected the speakers before they were shipped out puts his name right on the speaker. If you call M&K, an in house M&K will answer the phone vs going through a menu system, sometimes Ken Kriessel himself will pick the phone up. The warranty is 10 years, the fit and finish is impeccable, this is the Mercedes of speakers on every level. However, because sound is subjective, there no wrong or right if you don't like the sound.

The S150 system is simply amazing. I recently upgraded from the 750 to the 150 system, and the difference is very significant. The 150 is very neutral and detail, while the 750 is kind of harsh with some material. The customer service there is one of the bests out there.

I purchased a set of 750 LCRs directly from the M&K refurb store at a great price. When I unpacked them I was very impressed with the build quality. I could not tell them from new except for a few minor cosmetics flaws. However, I thought they just sounded ok. A bit too lean in the midbass for me and they could get agressive in the upper midrange. Getting a return authorization was somewhat of an ordeal. I requested an authorization and couple weeks went by and no answer. Send another e-mail and received a reply from Barry. He's say's he will ask Chris about it. A few day's go by nothing from Chris. Send Barry another reminder. Finally Chris writes back saying he sent me the RMA three weeks ago. I do not have any message from him from that far back. I'm the sort who never deletes my e-mail. I'll just chalk this up to some kind of communication mix up but thought I'd share my experience.

The S150 system is simply amazing. I recently upgraded from the 750 to the 150 system, and the difference is very significant. The 150 is very neutral and detail, while the 750 is kind of harsh with some material. The customer service there is one of the bests out there.

Agreed, the 150's are just about as good as it gets for the money. I called M&K with a question and on the first ring one of their engineers picked up the phone and talked to me for an hour, it just cemented my feelings about M&K.

M&K at Skywalker Ranch (http://www.mksound.com/pdf/ken_and_company/Michael_Laurino_HDTV_article.pdf)

I found this on the M&K website and thought it was pretty interesting. This is from a recent HDTV ETC. magazine. We really need to open a new thread to talk about M&K.

I've owned M&K speakers in some form ever since I started to build my HT just over 6 years ago. I've gone through many receivers, pre/pros, dvd players, amps, etc... but have never replaced my M&K with the exception of stepping up in the line. And yes I've since auditioned many speakers from Dyanudio, Thiel, Aerial and many more but nothing has impressed me as much as the M&K speakers themselves. My current iteration is S150s across the front, the 1625 professional tripoles on the sides and the small but mighty Surround 550s at back. The 550s I've had the longest and to my surprise are still my favorite speaker of the bunch....go figure. Bryston amplification...20 year warranty....nuff said, Arcam dvd, EAD pre/pro, 3 SVS subs.....I'm done upgrading in all respects and will always love my M&K's as a purchase I'll never regret.

King Kong and M&K (http://www.mkprofessional.com/news_p1.htm)

So many harsh words here in this thread, but 5/5 on sound in the review. :confused:

They must have done something right. ;)

thebland's King Kong Review (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=660449)

:)

a very good company with an interesting and long history...all the best :)

We tried to support the line. It's difficult to do this when you can't get complete surround systems shipped and no accurate info on when things will be shipping.

I even sent them a good chunk of my personal money for my own system, which they then proceeded to keep for 7 months. All the while pushing back the ship date with BS excuse after BS excuse. E-mail after e-mail, voice mail after voice mail, I got nothing back from them. I only got my money back after getting lucky enough to get the president on the phone. I asked him if this is what I get for promoting and selling his products? I told them I wanted my money or I would get legal assistance. I finally got my money, no speakers. Phew.

I vowed I would never sell another M&K product again. They did make good speakers, but alot of companys make good speakers. In my line of work I need to know that I can get product when I need it for installations, not months of excuses after I spent the time selling a customer on the product. It was horrible.

If this wasn't an indication of a company in trouble I don't know what is. It's too bad really, I always liked M&K speakers for mid-priced systems. But as a business owner we couldn't excuse this and had to move on.

We tried to support the line. It's difficult to do this when you can't get complete surround systems shipped and no accurate info on when things will be shipping.

I even sent them a good chunk of my personal money for my own system, which they then proceeded to keep for 7 months. All the while pushing back the ship date with BS excuse after BS excuse. E-mail after e-mail, voice mail after voice mail, I got nothing back from them. I only got my money back after getting lucky enough to get the president on the phone. I asked him if this is what I get for promoting and selling his products? I told them I wanted my money or I would get legal assistance. I finally got my money, no speakers. Phew.

I vowed I would never sell another M&K product again. They did make good speakers, but alot of companys make good speakers. In my line of work I need to know that I can get product when I need it for installations, not months of excuses after I spent the time selling a customer on the product. It was horrible.

If this wasn't an indication of a company in trouble I don't know what is. It's too bad really, I always liked M&K speakers for mid-priced systems. But as a business owner we couldn't excuse this and had to move on.

When I was Entertainment Chairman for a blues society, I booked a band out of Chicago to be my #2 band (out of three). His wife was his manager. As the opener took the stage, they had not shown up. I was calling and calling and his wife claimed they were on the road but he didn't have a cell phone. How could she know he was 30 minutes away when he didn't have a cell phone? As the opener was about to do their encore I motioned for the bass guitarist to tell him to keep playing until I gave them the high sign. Just then my #2 band pulled onto the property. (And they had a bad monitor for the bassist and asked to borrow one from my headliner.)

My point is that even though this guy is written up in Rolling Stone and is extremely talented, his inability to run his business like a business (and professional musicians are running businesses) crippled his ability to succeed. M&K looks to be having some problems with running their business. It's another reason why perhaps the best thing for everyone is a takeover by a more viable business. Harman International makes sense.

They had a few problems with production a few years ago, that is not the case now.

This wasn't a few years ago. I think my main concern was how they chose to handle themselves in the face of difficult times. Lying doesn't help anyone and cetainly doesn't gain sympathy.

Has anyone checked out their new flagship sub the MX 5100SF?

I've got a pair of MX350's (the "Discover Deep Bass" model), along with 3 S150's and 4 SS150's, and was wondering if anyone has the new MX350 "Super Fast Deep Bass" models and can compare them to the "DDB" model?

I know this isnt exactly the right place, but I have been searching for a set of six of the 150pk's or PB's used, with stands. Anyone know of a place or willing to sell theirs?

I know this isnt exactly the right place, but I have been searching for a set of six of the 150pk's or PB's used, with stands. Anyone know of a place or willing to sell theirs?

Did you try http://www.audiogon.com/?

Skip

I am a big fan of M&K.. S150's and the new MX2500 SF subs.. unreal sub. Using CS29 Column surrounds over the SS150's.. anyone using columns? any opinions vs the ss150's? I thought the columns had a fuller more pleasing surround effect.

Yep, I check audiogon daily.

hi:

I will be in the market for a plasma HT system shortly. I would like the "hidden" and clean look of IN-WALL speakers. Does anyone recommend the M&K SW-150's or SW-95's? I've seen them at a website called audiophileliquidator.com. The sw-150's go for $800 and the sw-95's for $475 apiece...

Any comments suggestions etc. REGARDS...

Better not buy M&K online; I don't think there are any authorized online dealers for them.

Well, perhaps I should amend the title of this thread. The President of M&K is no longer there and has not been replaced.

In the past 5-7 years, at least a few key M&K folk have gone elsewhere to start such companies as Ascend Acoustics and BlueSky.

Well, perhaps I should amend the title of this thread. The President of M&K is no longer there and has not been replaced.

Who, Ken Kreisel?

Well, perhaps I should amend the title of this thread. The President of M&K is no longer there and has not been replaced.

So M&K is not here to stay? Your post sounds ominous. It would be interesting to know why you originally started this thread.

I had my sub refurbed by M&K 2 months ago.

From the tour of their "new" location,it doesnt look like M&K is planning on going by by anytime soon :)

I had my sub refurbed by M&K 2 months ago.

From the tour of their "new" location,it doesnt look like M&K is planning on going by by anytime soon :)


Did they have a demo room setup?

"Did they have a demo room setup?"

It was still being built when I was there.Gary told me it should take another month,which means it should be done by now :)

M&K also told me they would be having screenings on some nights in their demo room.

This thread has not been updated for a while. What is the current status at M&K?

I want an active powered system like the M&K 150 THX System.

Chuck

This thread has not been updated for a while. What is the current status at M&K?

I want an active powered system like the M&K 150 THX System.

Chuck
They didn't display at CES last week, but I did have a nice long talk with Chuck Back, who has been the fiber of M&K for almost his entire adult life. He sounded fairly upbeat. I wish them well.

In light of M&K's recent demise, I found this thread rather interesting and somewhat humorous.

Bumping up for those that haven't been around long (like myself)...

May want to learn some lessons from Japan high-end Audio Visual Manufactures. Some of them have already pull back from low cost countries manufacturing bases such as China, Malaysia etc to their own base country, Japan. Reasons being cited were compromised to quality and intellectual property rights.

Hope that M&K would consider thrice before moving their manufacturing bases to low cost countries. Looks like Gideon gets the Crystal Ball award. His post was from April 05.

Looks like Gideon gets the Crystal Ball award. His post was from April 05.


:)

I have read some smack here on AVS about M&K being in trouble. Well, Boulderdash!

I can't say a heck of a lot, as I have literally been sworn to secrecy. But what I can say is that M&K is successfully adapting to the changing realities of the new manufactuing paradigm. If you have orders in for M&K products, be patient. If you are considering placing some orders, don't worry.

ironic

In light of M&K's recent demise, I found this thread rather interesting and somewhat humorous.

Bumping up for those that haven't been around long (like myself)...


What is somewhat humorous about Americans losing their jobs, and an American company going out of business, presumably in part due to the outsourcing of manufacturing to China and that country's lack of enforcement with regards to intellectual property?

Global sourcing has become important for a number of reasons. One of the big reasons is Wal Mart. In the push for lower and lower prices, a concept to which the American consumer has become addicted, factories in low cost manufacturing countries are building huge economies of scale. There are electrtonics factories in foreign countries that, in one or two shifts, could produce an entire years worth of parts for every high end speaker manufacturer in the world. So it becomes harder and harder for niche, high end electronic parts manufacturers to compete. When a business owner reaches a point where the costs of manufacturing exceed the market price he can get for his products, he either converts to a not profit charity, or shuts down. This forces his customers to seek new vendors, a painstaking and time consuming process for any company who is technically forward thinking and quality focused.

And as for the country of origin, parts are still parts, irrespective of the color of the fingers which put them together. A rich old guy told me he would rather have a Japanese car from an assembly line, than a hand built Rolls Royce made on the Monday following an important soccer game.
Remember what happened to the quality audio names of old that began manufacturing overseas? The went to crap and high end audio was born in the U.S.
There is always going to be an initial period of time where we will have to deal with subpar quality everytime a company moves manufacturing overseas, read: Asia.

Like we don't have high end crap?

Remember what happened to the quality audio names of old that began manufacturing overseas? The went to crap and high end audio was born in the U.S.
There is always going to be an initial period of time where we will have to deal with subpar quality everytime a company moves manufacturing overseas, read: Asia.

Any thoughts as to whether or not this same adage applies to a company like AV123 that started in the US but has since moved manufacturing out of the country?

Unfortunately, it seems that it's hard for just about any high-end company to make it for very long unless they have the right management in place. One of the first that comes to mind is Soundcraftsmen, but they've been on my mind lately anyway. Another is BMW, who is seeing decent car sales, and increasing sales since they bought the Mini name, but whose bike sales have lost a step or two to the competition.

Consumers are fickle, and there's only so much market for high-end anything. Mass-produced krep sells a lot more and has a much larger market. Once a high-end company's quality or service starts to slip, it usually just the start of a long slide to Chapter 7, 11, etc...

Any thoughts as to whether or not this same adage applies to a company like AV123 that started in the US but has since moved manufacturing out of the country?



I don't think av123 has ever manufactured in the US. I believe av123 started out as an importer of Swans until they built the Sound Arts China factory and then started building their own speakers as well as cabinets for many, many other speaker companies.

The S-150 is not even their best speaker. The S-5000 sounds much more neutral and with a much bigger soundstage. Of course my opinion. I have owned almost all the different M&K's and finally went from the s-250 to the s-5000. I thought there was a big difference. I do agree that they need to come out with better speakers than they have. Their top speakers are great but everything else is ok. They have never even replaced the S-5000. Having said this for home theater I have not heard a better speaker for my theater than the 5000 and I have tried some nice speakers.

The S-150 is not even their best speaker. The S-5000 sounds much more neutral and with a much bigger soundstage. Of course my opinion. I have owned almost all the different M&K's and finally went from the s-250 to the s-5000. I thought there was a big difference. I do agree that they need to come out with better speakers than they have. Their top speakers are great but everything else is ok. They have never even replaced the S-5000. Having said this for home theater I have not heard a better speaker for my theater than the 5000 and I have tried some nice speakers.
Maybe you missed it, but they aren't coming out with anything. They're out of business.

Are you sure, what about the pro audio side of things? Anyway I am glad I own the best speaker they ever made for theater.

They filed for Chapter 7. Check out their web site.

www.mksound.com

I see, well like I said these speakers are awesome and when they die I will find a replacement. So much for the 7 year warranty I had left on my USA M&K speakers. I do love the dynamics and accuracy of these, what would be a good replacement?

What is somewhat humorous about Americans losing their jobs, and an American company going out of business, presumably in part due to the outsourcing of manufacturing to China and that country's lack of enforcement with regards to intellectual property?
The "humor" was in the irony of this thread saying that M&K wasn't in trouble and was "here to stay". Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part...

I can honestly say I was very troubled by the news when I read it yesterday, and am legitimitely SAD that this has happened. I loved what M&K stood for, as well as their products.

Getting good, solid products that aren't new or flashy (like speakers, amplifiers) or filled with snake-oil is getting more and more difficult these days.

I see, well like I said these speakers are awesome and when they die I will find a replacement. So much for the 7 year warranty I had left on my USA M&K speakers. I do love the dynamics and accuracy of these, what would be a good replacement?

A Blue Sky and Ascend Acoustics are both companies with former M&K engineers designing the products.

Any thoughts as to whether or not this same adage applies to a company like AV123 that started in the US but has since moved manufacturing out of the country?

Unfortunately, it seems that it's hard for just about any high-end company to make it for very long unless they have the right management in place. One of the first that comes to mind is Soundcraftsmen, but they've been on my mind lately anyway. Another is BMW, who is seeing decent car sales, and increasing sales since they bought the Mini name, but whose bike sales have lost a step or two to the competition.

Consumers are fickle, and there's only so much market for high-end anything. Mass-produced krep sells a lot more and has a much larger market. Once a high-end company's quality or service starts to slip, it usually just the start of a long slide to Chapter 7, 11, etc...
I meant it in the sense that usually a company moves its manufacturing overseas after some degree of financial difficulty is under way, ala M&K.

So to try and salvage some of the potential sales they reduce quality to try to appeal to a wider market and increase profits.

Think about it, if they were to start selling M&Ks in Best Buy at a lower than accustomed to price some people will grab them up. They'll think they are getting this high end product for a great price and can't believe their good fortune.

However what they will in all probability be getting is a mass produced imitation of what used to be a phenomenal product.

I loved what M&K stood for
You loved both Miller and Kriesel? ;)

This is sad....I love my M&K's too bad more people can't enjoy them too.

I am only 3 months into my 10 year warranty which really sucks

Honestly this is pretty sad news..

Think about it, if they were to start selling M&Ks in Best Buy at a lower than accustomed to price some people will grab them up. They'll think they are getting this high end product for a great price and can't believe their good fortune.

However what they will in all probability be getting is a mass produced imitation of what used to be a phenomenal product.

M&K WAS sold in Best Buy in the MHT wannabe high-end sections. They discontinued the line because they didnt sell. They didnt sell because Best Buy customers buy Klipsch and Bose.

M&K WAS sold in Best Buy in the MHT wannabe high-end sections. They discontinued the line because they didnt sell. They didnt sell because Best Buy customers buy Klipsch and Bose.
Since no-one seemed to be able to get product over the past two plus years, perhaps they discontinued the line because they had none to sell.

However what they will in all probability be getting is a mass produced imitation of what used to be a phenomenal product.

One of these days, the American worker is finally going to wake up. The "factory" production worker that is. They want to b!@#$ and moan about losing their jobs to over seas production, yet they didn't or don't want to help management get lean and mean to be competative in the marketplace. Forcing the companies to move or close up entirely in the end.

Make no mistake, Japan set the standard for production efficiency post WWII. They learned to make the production worker part of the management "team" thus fostering checks and balances that the employees took responsibility for and were PROUD of. All of a sudden, quality control for example had a direct impact on their income and they took it PERSONALLY. They became immersed in how to produce things more efficiently as well as at a higher quality.

People who think of the Asian manufacturing plants of today as the dirty sweat shops of yesterday, mass producing junk not fit for anything.... are sorely mistaken. Many, MANY of them are state of the art, with the newest technology and equipment where workers are provided housing, meals, laundry services, day care, exorcise areas etc.... that would EASILY put ISO 9000 factories here to shame.

The US better WAKE UP PDQ.... or we won't manufacture anything.

all speakers shall now sound the same because they're now all built in the same china by the same dude wearing the same hat.

Many, MANY of them are state of the art, with the newest technology and equipment where workers are provided housing, meals, laundry services, day care, exorcise areas etc.... that would EASILY put ISO 9000 factories here to shame.

The US better WAKE UP PDQ.... or we won't manufacture anything.

wow, are they possessed often? j/k :p

John W. you have nailed in on the head...this wake up needed to happen about 20 years ago though.

Unskilled Union workers in this country have been demanding wages and benifits that befit educated middle-class people without realizing that they didn't deserve it because their conterparts oversees would be more than happy doing that work for subsistance level wages.