I think he forgot to repeat marketing expenses and lawyers 20 times.

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I have owned several Bose products and have been very satisfied with them and will continue to buy Bose products. Now audiophiles will call me stupid for wasting my money, but in the end I believe there are several factors that people consider when buying almost anything. I believe with clever product conception and marketing, Bose has done a good (excellent) job of catering to their customer base. Here are some points that come to mind:

1. Last year I was looking to upgrade my existing Bose Lifestyle system with a newer one since the system I owned lacked some basic features like progressive scan DVD and lack of component connections. After looking at several sets, I decided to go with the Lifestyle 48 because of it's combination of features, aesthetics and sound quality. Every single person who has come over to our place, whether to see a movie, TV or listen to music has positively commented on the sound quality. So, I am clearly not the only person imagining good sound here (I did not say best, good).

2. Statistical leadership does not translate to the best product. GM and Ford for years have been turning out cars that are cheaper and statistically more impressive than their Japanese counterparts, yet unable to sell them.

3. Major bands, auto manufacturers and even hollywood sound producers have been using Bose products. Why would they, if these were such inferior products!

I know audiophiles love to disparage anyone buying or considering Bose products. But in the end it is your money, buy what you think makes most sense to you. I enjoy my Bose (and from what I can tell a lot of other folks do as well).

Sure Motor Trend recommends cars that have a top speed of 180MPH and the best cornering on a race track or whatever. Am I a fool to buying a car rated as boring by them? I'm a Honda and Acura kind of person, and the Bose does just fine by me...and I guess that's all that matters to Bose :)

Anyone, ANYONE, who buys Blose does not care about audio, they care about form, not function. You are basically admitting to buying overpriced inferior speakers. Congrats.

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Why should you buy without comparing? I don't see how you can't compare products when they are all in the same store? How do you compare Plasma TV sets? I see on CNET the most popular Plasma is the Panasonic 50 inch commerical set, that probably 50% people buy without ever seeing.

You cannot compare several of the most popular Plasma TV sets today in a single store. It's not as unusual as you think.

Don't assume that people are stupid because they don't think like you or agree with you. I have found that people in general are rational and act according to rational behavior. Bose could not have survived (thrived) by continuously putting out inferior products at inflated prices. To assume otherwise is irrational.

Ok looks like I am preaching to an audience that is by an large one-dimensional in their thinking. You don't have Bose, great! You're just so smart, perhaps some sort of award for cleverness is in order....

Ok, now that is, by far, the dumbest thing I have read on this entire forum, easily. Please don't tell me you believe your own bullsh*t? Bose makes HORRIBLE products that are on the level of white van speakers. There are many companies that make grossly overpriced inferior products, yet they still make tons of money.

People, in general, are NOT rational - people are stupid apes that fear anything that is not like them, and believe in things like the bible. The human race is tragically stupid.

Funnything is that Most cube speakers systems/HTIB's dont sound all that much better than bose Exept the subwoofer. LMAO!! :D

http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html


read this

Funnything is that Most cube speakers systems/HTIB's dont sound all that much better than bose Exept the subwoofer. LMAO!! :D

Nor do they cost what a Bose setup will.

$400 HTIB vs $4000 Bose Lifestyle system.......the Bose had better blow me away for that kind of cash. Does it?

Not in my opinion......

What about the $400.00 Bose 3-2-1 or GSX systems?

Another thing to consider is with the Blose "bass" modules they HAVE to reproduce frequencies of the human voice that the tiny sat speakers cannot. That in and of itself ruins any chance of being a "good" theater or audio setup. Subwoofers are supposed to be non-localized. Meaning you shouldn't be able to find them while listening with proper crossover settings. But if they are reproducing voice frequencies.... "Oh why are voices coming from the corner, when the person is talking directly in front of you." If that's what you want, then my recommendation would be setting your RCVR to 5/7ch stereo. Who needs discrete 5.1/7.1 channels.

I hope this makes sense to people.... ;)

Once upon a time, while still in college and a relative neophyte regarding audio, I heard Bose as well. At the time, I thought it was pretty "good". Good was relative since I never heard anything in comparison and was busy working, doing homework and did other things college students did :).

Now that I have learned much about audio video subjects, I still respect different tastes and difference. My age makes me less passionate.

Unfortunately, many friends and families (5 at last count) have had unfortunate experiences. A couple bought the 900's series. One bought the Acoustimass. Two just bought in December 2007, the latest model with the room acoustic control, or something or rather. They visited over Christmas and excitedly told me how good the Bose system were and how hi-tech they were. Given I had not heard Bose in years, I thought they knew what they were saying. All went well. At the time, my stereo system was taken down for home theater work so they had no chance to listen. Fast forward to this month.

We got our system back together and I connected our old Thiel CS2.4. One friend came by to listen and he was literally shocked. He stood in silence for a minute and not reacted. Then he asked me a series of questions with a hint of irritation in his voice. I became concerned. Finally, he blurted out the desire to sell his 900's on eBay, I forgot the model number, 901? This was end of January. News of his experience spread in our tiny circle.

My uncle (one of two relatives who bought Bose in December) came over to see what the fuss was about. By that time, we had received our Thiel CS3.7. It was not broken in yet, only about 10 hours since arrival. Not even on spikes yet, still sitting in the foam-plywood base. My uncle was not so kind with his words or so composed with his emotion. He is now asking his sons how to sell the Bose on eBay.

Last week, the other friend finally came over. He was the most adamant, the most defensive of the two. I set him up with the CS3.7 playing BlueRay version of "Blade Runner -Director's Cut" and finished with "Rescue Dawn". This was only two channels. He was blown away by the sound quality, in his words, "...not even in the same galaxy...". So he is now attempting to sell his Bose on eBay. He is also the first to seriously look at the SCS4 and the CS1.6. His alternative would be one of the Polks or Paradigms or JBL.

So I am not here to insult Bose owners but to share information and experiences. My own family members plunked down $4000 in December and now decide to sell and upgrade to something else. There is a reason why that happens.

I think that is all I care to say here and wish you all well.

If you want a sat system that sounds much better than Bose, you should check out some of the Anthony Gallo offerings. While they're not much less than Bose, they offer much better performance and, in my opinion, looks.

Single vs Multiple Drivers

We can compare and name speakers until our face turn blue but if our definition of "good" is different for each person, we can never understand each other. Before we can define the terms, we at least need to understand the basics of loudspeaker sound reproduction.

When a cymbal, a bass drum and a guitar are clanging, kicking and plucking away, in the exact same moment in time, a wide spectrum of musical frequencies, possibly from 20-20,000 hz, reach our ear simultaneously. Our ears can easily discern the timing of each instrument, the dynamics and how each is played. The cymbal will have a sweet and delicate natural decay as it fades away. The drum may give a kick in our gut and rumble the room until it rolls off. The guitar gives a spectrum of sound from the finger plucking to the twang to the eventual drop to lower frequency. All that happen in unison over a short span of time per note.

To reproduce the >= 20,000 hz range, a radiator needs to vibrate extremely fast. If it is too big, too much power will be required, the material may crack or disintegrate easily. Given the power needed and the material's stress factor, a tweeter is normally smaller and extremely stiff. This is so only a reasonable amount of power is needed to control the tweeter.

For midrange, while its frequency is lower, it has to address wide dynamics, so it also has to be stiff but necessarily larger. This is also where most of the sweetness of music is presented, so a good mid-range is a must.

For bass, it has to move a lot of air to generate that nice low frequency note. There is no way around this. Good bass is not all loud and rumbling, it also must produce the last octave of musical note that our ears can detect, down to 20 hz at least and may be sub-20. So there needs to be a large radiator to move the air, and yet sufficient damping and power to control how to move, when to move and in sync with the other musical frequency.

This is just to produce all the frequencies associated with a single moment in time in a band's performance.

Next is the timing issue. The cymbal is playing in time with the guitar and the drum. Ideally, a loudspeaker should reproduce the cymbal's frequency and all its transients in perfect time with the guitar and the drum, exactly and precisely as the band was playing them.

A poorly designed speaker system can easily send the cymbal sound first before the mid-range and if the woofer control is poor, we will hear the bass way after the cymbal and guitar! We are no longer hearing precisely and exactly how the band played, we have lost the performance characteristics of the music and of the soloist in the band! Is it still "music"? Well, sort of. Will it sound "bad"? Not always. Is it true to the performance? Absolutely NOT!

A well designed speaker system will work hard not only to ensure correct frequency reproduction, but also the time and phase is absolutely as close to perfect as possible. Only then will it be able to come close to reproducing exactly what the band was doing when it made the recording. A speaker system like that sounds absolutely involving and life-like not because of volume but because of the richness of musical tones and timbres that we can all hear.

This means the speaker has to have Cross-Over circuit to accurately and smoothly distribute the frequencies to the correct driver and also to drive each driver in step with the others. The less the time lag, the less the difference between the drivers, the better. This is the never-ending quest of high-end audio companies. A weak crossover messes up the musical information no matter the quality of the drivers. A set of bad drivers cannot do justice to top notch crossover. So even multiple driver speaker system cannot boast absolute 100% accurate reproduction, but they can come really close. So close that our ears can hear it, our heart can feel it and we get up and boogie.

Can a single driver do all of the above? No. Not with today's approach of using a radiator, a surround, some sort of magnetic voice coil and so on. It is simple physics and material science. How does a single radiator reproduce the sound frequency of the cymbal, guitar and drum in that precise moment in time? moment to moment?

While the cymbal clashes, the kick drum is also kicking and the guitar string just got plucked, so how does a single radiator hurry up and vibrate to produce the high frequency range of that cymbal clash, then hurry up to produce the drum then hurry up to produce the rich mids of the guitar? All at the same time? It cannot. So designers make compromises. The compromise is one of dragging out the reproduction. If the high gets to the radiator first, it vibrates for the high first, then the mids or bass and then whatever is left. There is no other way to do it. It is simple logic and science.

THis means, by design, single full-range radiator system cannot accurately reproduce music signals. It necessarily must radiate in some sort of sequence. So we are guaranteed to hear either cymbal first, then guitar, then bass or bass first, then guitar and then cymbal or any one of 6 possible combinations.

If a manufacturer pays great attention to details in design and material, I am sure a single radiator will not be too overtly objectionable but its limitations will be readily obvious and apparent. If it favors the ability to capture the sweet delicate airy decay of the cymbal, it will not be able to produce the necessary rich mid-range or its dynamics. In this case, forget about the bass. At worst, we will hear disembodied and disjoint sound. If it favors mid-range, then we can forget about airy high and the final octave. If it favors bass, then we can forget mid-range and highs. The manufacturer has to make the choice where to compromise and it will be a compromise, there is no way around it.

Now when we are talking non-critical listening with $10-$90 dollar desk-top computer or game boxes, who cares precisely how each instrument may sound and how it may be keeping time with the other instruments in a band, right? When we start talking about $1000 speaker system, $4000 speaker system, we are talking serious dollars and we should and must demand matching performance. It is highly unlikely that a $4000 single-radiator speaker system can hope to match a well-conceived $4000 multi-radiator, either 2- or 3-way, speaker system.

If you buy my logic above, then at least we can agree that there are compromises being made in single-driver system. Now we can start talking about "good" and it is clear that it ends up being personal tastes. SOme people may want absolute accuracy and will pay for it. They may grab the Thiel SCS4, CS3.7 or the Vandersteen 5A or Quatro.

Some people don't care about accuracy in the full spectrum and just want something that sounds mellow and pleasant and looks nice in their homes, so they go for form over function. In that case, any brand will do nicely in anyone's home to meet anyone's needs. If I just want some pleasant noise in the background, and I like the Bose looks, and I am willing to pay $4000 for it, well then kudos to me!!!

If I want absolute accuracy across the whole spectrum, and I am willing to pay $4000 for it, I may grab the beautifully designed high-end, audiophile-grade Thiel SCS4 at $990 each and promptly "die" and go to "audio heaven", kudos to me too.

As long as consumers know what their money is buying, it is fair. WHen friends and family ask, what I do is explain the above to them and then ask them to come over, listen to my system using their favorite tracks and then go listen to Bose. If they still decide on Bose, it is their choice.

I am certainly no technical expert so please bear with me. All frequencies travel at the same speed. The length of the wave, however varies with the frequency. Frequency and wavelength are inversely related. Wave A has a wavelength of 1.2 m. Wave B has a wavelength of 3.6 m. The frequency of wave B is one third the frequency of wave A. If this is true, in a live environment. the bass sound would be heard and not the cymbal at a given distance. Even if the cymbal was heard it would be a much lower volume. You describe the opposite of this above with a single speaker, therefore it would not be accurate.

You make reference to Thiel speakers. All Thiels that I have heard had almost piercing highs and very poor bass. This is no more accurate than a single speaker in a cabinet since we know that in a live environment the lower frequencies are louder.

with a frequency responce gap like that who would want to see them? :p

Our brain is notoriously flexible with time and phase, especially since musicians are notoriously flexible as well. Not to mention the inherent phase/time issues in a recording or even in a live concert. Is the drummer the same distance from you as other musicians? Nope. Think they are dealing with a few ms delay too? Yep.

Our brain is notoriously flexible with time and phase, especially since musicians are notoriously flexible as well. Not to mention the inherent phase/time issues in a recording or even in a live concert. Is the drummer the same distance from you as other musicians? Nope. Think they are dealing with a few ms delay too? Yep.

Does it matter where the musicians are with electronic instruments? It should with accoustical instruments.

with a frequency responce gap like that who would want to see them? :p

Anyone who buys Sony speakers.

Anyone who buys Sony speakers.

But the sony's go from 50Khz-50Hz without the 20-30Hz gap between the High-mid drivers and the bass drivers. :rolleyes:

the bose systems sound funny compared to the sony's :rolleyes:

At leas the son's produce midrange the bose does not.

You guys are nothing but a bunch of Bose bashers! That’s my kind of people:D

I always thought it would be fun to sue Bose for false advertising. In their infomercials they talk about having very low or, “no distortion”. Many forms of distortion are not subjective and it would be a simple matter to prove the Bose claims of no distortion to be false. I also believe that if people were sent out to various stores to buy similarly priced speakers at random that it would also be a simple matter to prove that most or more likely all the randomly chosen alternatives would have lower distortion than the Bose. Seems like this would be a case easily won no matter how good the Bose lawyers might be. Might be fun too!

Monte

I am actually considering buying a pair of 901,s used just because, setup properly with the eq they can sound fantastic

I am certainly no technical expert so please bear with me. All frequencies travel at the same speed. ...

You make reference to Thiel speakers. All Thiels that I have heard had almost piercing highs and very poor bass. This is no more accurate than a single speaker in a cabinet since we know that in a live environment the lower frequencies are louder.

I was not referring to frequency itself, I was referring to the order in which each driver fires in response to its frequency range. It has to do with cross-over design. If tweeter fires first, then midrange then bass, the sound from the tweeter gets to my ears first, then midrange, then bass. While that instance in time is just a slice of the frequency, my ears are already responding and detecting. When the whole note shows up in my ears, the timing issue will smear the sound.

There are many ways to deal with this and one of them is to just use First order crossover. I am too lazy now to get into this but you can look this up if you wish.

That said, a single driver, in my personal single-person biased opinion cannot possibly reconstruct everything faithfully. Of course, may be there are some really exotic material now that can vibrate as fast as a tweeter and still move as much air as a bass driver. It can somehow magically create the full frequency range within a time span that my ears cannot detect so when I do hear it, everything comes out pristine. If such a thing exists, then full-range single-driver is possible. Are we claiming Bose has such a material and is using it in its single driver design? Last I heard, Bose was using paper cone!

As for your impression of Thiel, it actually matches some of mine BUT with a difference. You did not mention what amplifier, cables and upstream components you used. Thiel is a revealing product and will not hide what is bad upstream. I have heard Thiel matched with solid state mass market equipment and good high-end solid state equipment. Mass market gear generally came across as shrill. I could not listen for more than 5 minutes.

Using high end solid state gear, it sounds beautiful but the higher frequency range was still a bit hard for some material and that also is a problem for me. Thiel's old aluminum tweeter coupled with solid state sound just wouldn't do for my ears.

Matched with a vacuum tube amplifier, now that changes the whole picture. I had the Thiel CS 2.4 and it sounded wonderful driven by vacuum tube gear. Yes, top end is still a shade hard at times, especially on poorly recorded stuff but in general, unlike on solid state gear, it sounded sweet and wonderful.

If you used low end gear, poor cables or play poorly recorded music, Thiel will generally reveal them as such. So for our discussion to be informative and reasonable, you have to share what you used. Just voicing a general "Thiel is shrill" statement is insufficient.

As for bass, that depends on which Thiel model you heard and what sort of music and what you prefer. It is true that Thiels do not generally go down to 20 or 10 hz. Actually, that is deliberate because going down that low in the same cabinet can be a problem. The amount of bracing needed to shield everything from those low 10-hz vibration will be massive and expensive. Thiel tried concrete in its 7.2 version. So instead of stuffing everything into one box, Thiel sells subwoofers with dedicated standalone cross-over that matches the sub to their front mains.

So it is true that Thiel, without a sub, cannot go as low as another speaker with a sub but then we are not comparing apples to apples now, are we? :-)

When it comes to subs, there are people who just want a house-rocking rumble and there are people who prefer precision. Which do you prefer? I know relatives who could care less about accuracy, they just want something that knocks their guts so they buy the "loudest" sub they can afford and call that great. I prefer my sub to be accurate and controlled, so I will hunt carefully for a brand that fits that requirements. If your taste gravitates towards loud rumbles, then comparing it to a tight, accurate and correct sub is also not comparing apples to apples.

The whole point of my post was directed at Bose's various baseless unscientific claims. I am done bashing Bose :-). I just want to provide whatever research I have done so readers can figure it out for themselves. Read up, learn a bit, keep an open mind, go listen, cut through the marketing chaffs and then make a choice.

If you like Bose, fine with me. If you prefer single driver speaker, that is fine with me too. I am not interested in convincing you to dislike Bose or to claim that single driver is bad. I am simply stating what I have learned and experienced.

CHeers!

Bose doesn't advertise their specs coz their products wont even measure up in terms of frequency specs and sound against speakers in the same price range.

Regular consumers think that if a small speaker plays that "loud" then it must be good.
I cringe everytime i hear someone say "Well, i have Bose" or "My husband has Bose". I want to say "I'm sorry to hear that"

I hate to admit that i used to think when i was younger that Bose was the best speaker out there. Then one day i started reading audio magazines and the rest is history. Now im always broke :)

If there something Bose is doing well is advertising. Their products are everywhere! What do you think if a non audio-enthusiast person would say when you tell them that you have a Martin Logan speaker they''ll probably like "Martin Who???"

A friend of mine is a big Bose fan and so proud if his acoustimass speaker. Has always invited me to listen and watch movies in his house. I never went to his house to watch a movie. I just couldnt do it. What's bad is i couldnt tell him straight up that he wasted money on his speakers. Hey! As long as he is happy.

sony put out a smaller than bose cube system

i heard them at sears

i haven't heard anything that bad since i had my 76 chevy caprice classic with the am radio and the single GM speaker in the center of the cracked dashboard