Anyone else having audio and video stuttering problems on 11 with the Cowboys game?

I am watching via OTA with a signal of around 90%.

I am having the stuttering and such on CBS, and Fox just keeps dropping completely. it has been gone for about 10 minutes now. It had dropped earlier for about 5 minutes.

I am on TWC using my built in ATSC tuner.

Anyone else having audio and video stuttering problems on 11 with the Cowboys game?

I am watching via OTA with a signal of around 90%.
Yes, and I have D* also and I'm getting the same problem with that feed as OTA.

Well, at least it isn't a problem with my setup.

That sucks. 11 is usualy very reliable via OTA.

Yes there are audio problems via D* on MPEG4 and MPEG2. I suspect it is originating at the stadium. Arlington cannot be built soon enough so all the equipment doesn't have to sit in the rain like it does in Irving.

fox is back

Upon further review, I am having the same issues as everyone else. I shouldn't have posted earlier since I hadn't been watching that much up to that point. I have tried watching through my Moto box, cable direct, and OTA, and there are definitely issues on all three....

-Randy

I suspect it is originating at the stadium. Arlington cannot be built soon enough so all the equipment doesn't have to sit in the rain like it does in Irving.

I have been seeing the same problems with commericials. Would the rain effect them? I would guess no, but then again, you guys know a lot more than I do.

I ususally FF through the commercials. I listened to two of them and the audio came through loud and clear, about 9 dB louder in fact. When the game came back on the audio was muddy and the center channel was struggling again.

I had problems during Cowboy game with some pixilation like others and also having in in the game that followed on Channel 11. It looked simular to weather OTA problem, but not quite the same. It showed up on both my OTA and on Dish HD local, so it seems to be something to do with the transmission from Channel 11 since the weather is not bad.

Does anyone know if it a transmission problem?

I had problems during Cowboy game with some pixilation like others and also having in in the game that followed on Channel 11. It looked simular to weather OTA problem, but not quite the same. It showed up on both my OTA and on Dish HD local, so it seems to be something to do with the transmission from Channel 11 since the weather is not bad.

Does anyone know if it a transmission problem?

Noticed the same thing on OTA, E* LiL HD, and CBSHD from east coast. Must be source.

Noticed also on OTA with CBS during the PIttsburggh game. Seemed to get worse closer to halftime. Cleared up a bit once the game began again though. I did not notice any issues on NY CBS-HD from DirecTV though. They were playing the Jets game though.

Noticed also on OTA with CBS during the PIttsburggh game. Seemed to get worse closer to halftime. Cleared up a bit once the game began again though. I did not notice any issues on NY CBS-HD from DirecTV though. They were playing the Jets game though.

Actually, I think this started Saturday. I started having problems while watching the NASCAR race on HD NBC via TW in Plano. I thought it was the network feed, but then I found lots of issues Sunday on multiple HD channels. not sure where it was all coming from.

So, is there anyone in this thread who lives in Fort Worth? If so, how is your hi-def experience? TIA.

Are you talking about the ability to receive digital channels? If so, where do you live in Fort Worth? The city covers 400 sq miles and varies more than 100 feet in elevation throughout so it is hard to generalize.

So, is there anyone in this thread who lives in Fort Worth? If so, how is your hi-def experience? TIA.
It's not exactly Ft. Worth, but....
I live in Colleyville and get great reception (best out of sat, and cable) using some old Radio Shack ant I have hanging in the attic. I put it up there years ago as a backup for my cable that would go out every week or so.

So, is there anyone in this thread who lives in Fort Worth? If so, how is your hi-def experience? TIA.

I live in north Arlington and on Sunday I got a lot of pixelation while watching football in both ch 4 and 11.

Ch 4 pixelation has been going on since the begining of baseball Oct Madness.
Seems that ch 4 is much worst than 11.

I am on Dish.

I'm looking at buying a QAM enabled tuner card for building a pvr. I have the standard package with timewarner in the Frisco area. The cable runs straight from the wall to the back of my tv (for now) so I don't have any type of cable box. Since I don't have digital cable, will I be able to get the hdtv local channels through the cable with a QAM tv tuner card?

I have the basic and standard package.


If no one knows for certain, does anyone know how I can verify it? I tried to tune my tv to channels like 368 (that's abc hd), but it says channel isn't available. I read in another thread that these channels are just remappings and I'm not even sure if my tv has a qam tuner. So, my test probably wasn't very reliable.

My tv is a Panasonic TH-50PX600U.

I tried to include urls to timewarner's channel lineup and my tv specs, but since I'm new to the site, I can't post urls yet.

Are you talking about the ability to receive digital channels? If so, where do you live in Fort Worth? The city covers 400 sq miles and varies more than 100 feet in elevation throughout so it is hard to generalize.
Thanks for the replies, including TomTX and hughh. I am in west FW and will soon move to northwest FW a bit north of Lake Worth.

I am mainly interested in OTA reception b/c I figure DirecTV and Dish Network should be the same for everyone in the country, as long as you have a clear view of the southern sky.

For OTA, I'd need a clear view east to point to Dallas. According to antennaweb.org, I'd be about 33 miles west of the digital (OTA) broadcast sources. I'm pretty sure an internal antenna won't do, but a rooftop antenna should work, if I can find someone to install it (or take the chance myself. :eek: ).

I'm thinking of at least starting out with D* or E* using whatever promo is available and then perhaps "downgrading" to free OTA and get rid of cable channels. I really only care about hi-def ABC, CBS, FOX, and NBC.

I'm looking at buying a QAM enabled tuner card for building a pvr. I have the standard package with timewarner in the Frisco area. The cable runs straight from the wall to the back of my tv (for now) so I don't have any type of cable box. Since I don't have digital cable, will I be able to get the hdtv local channels through the cable with a QAM tv tuner card?

I have the basic and standard package.


If no one knows for certain, does anyone know how I can verify it? I tried to tune my tv to channels like 368 (that's abc hd), but it says channel isn't available. I read in another thread that these channels are just remappings and I'm not even sure if my tv has a qam tuner. So, my test probably wasn't very reliable.

My tv is a Panasonic TH-50PX600U.

I tried to include urls to timewarner's channel lineup and my tv specs, but since I'm new to the site, I can't post urls yet.

Unless they have filters on your line, you *should* be able to get clear QAM with a QAM tuner. The channel numbers you are trying to use are mapped and require a set top box...they won't do you any good. I posted everything that I am receiving 'in the clear' with my Mits TV's QAM tuner a little further up the thread, and I am in Frisco, too. Try looking back a bit and that might help you out...

Good luck!
-Randy

Thanks for the replies, including TomTX and hughh. I am in west FW and will soon move to northwest FW a bit north of Lake Worth.

I am mainly interested in OTA reception b/c I figure DirecTV and Dish Network should be the same for everyone in the country, as long as you have a clear view of the southern sky.

For OTA, I'd need a clear view east to point to Dallas. According to antennaweb.org, I'd be about 33 miles west of the digital (OTA) broadcast sources. I'm pretty sure an internal antenna won't do, but a rooftop antenna should work, if I can find someone to install it (or take the chance myself. :eek: ).

I'm thinking of at least starting out with D* or E* using whatever promo is available and then perhaps "downgrading" to free OTA and get rid of cable channels. I really only care about hi-def ABC, CBS, FOX, and NBC.

When you get ready for the antenna installation, you may want to call:
Bob Baker @ 905 2919 Bob's Audio/Video Connection

You may want to let Bob select the antenna that works best for your location.

Bob is in Arlington and he has installed my son's antena as well as mine. We go back quite a few years. Before DBS I had a 10 foot satellite dish installed and maintained by Bob. He has also done home theater system installs, etc., for me.

I just switched from D* to E* and got the 622 HD recorder. I am a happy camper!

Unless they have filters on your line, you *should* be able to get clear QAM with a QAM tuner. The channel numbers you are trying to use are mapped and require a set top box...they won't do you any good. I posted everything that I am receiving 'in the clear' with my Mits TV's QAM tuner a little further up the thread, and I am in Frisco, too. Try looking back a bit and that might help you out...

Good luck!
-Randy

Thanks for the help. My tv specs say it does have a QAM tuner so I can't wait to give it a try when I get back in town. Do you have your system hooked up to a htpc? I'm trying to figure out how I want to go about it. It sounds like none of the common pvr software packages for windows (gbpvr, beyondtv, sage, watchhdtv) can handle QAM yet. Anyone know otherwise?

I have an HTPC (well, one and a half) and three capture cards.

The PCI MyHD card has a hardware decoder, and the software is the most stable.

The PCI Fusion and USB Fusion work OK, but the software is very poor. However, the s/w playback is excellent, and uses DxVA (acceleration in the graphics card).

If you have a 1080i TV, I recommend the MyHD. No display drivers handle playback of video at 1080i correctly.

Otherwise, I still recommend the MyHD, because it's more stable, and I understand the QAM support is better than the Fusion (I don't have cable, so I can't verify this).

If your HTPC is Linux, you might want to look at HDHomeRun. It works with MythTV and has TWO tuners.

Xesdeeni

Thanks for the help. My tv specs say it does have a QAM tuner so I can't wait to give it a try when I get back in town. Do you have your system hooked up to a htpc? I'm trying to figure out how I want to go about it. It sounds like none of the common pvr software packages for windows (gbpvr, beyondtv, sage, watchhdtv) can handle QAM yet. Anyone know otherwise?

I don't have a HTPC. I have one that is somewhat capable, but don't have any signal sources hooked up to it, much less HD. I'll have to defer to others for that info...

-Randy

If you have a 1080i TV, I recommend the MyHD. No display drivers handle playback of video at 1080i correctly.

Not sure what you mean by that, as I'm playing 1080p just fine on my LCD TV and 6600GT. You mean 1080i on a tube? I would think 1080i would be a lot easier than 1080p, since the native format of HD TV programming is either 720i or 1080i.

beowulf - post your antennaweb results here and we can give you better advice, but I suspect at 33 miles it's going to be the standard "DFW antenna" recommendation - the CM4228. Depending on your exact location you may need the CM7777 preamp.

When you get ready for the antenna installation, you may want to call:
Bob Baker @ 905 2919 Bob's Audio/Video Connection

You may want to let Bob select the antenna that works best for your location.

Bob is in Arlington and he has installed my son's antena as well as mine. We go back quite a few years. Before DBS I had a 10 foot satellite dish installed and maintained by Bob. He has also done home theater system installs, etc., for me.

I just switched from D* to E* and got the 622 HD recorder. I am a happy camper!
For a second, I thought you said "Bob Barker" (of "The Price is Right"). :D

Thanks for the recommendation. Do you remember what is rates were for the installation? I've heard good things about Dish Network so I'll probably first give them a try as I mentioned in my previous post. I just hope I don't get too addicted to cable b/c I don't want to pay the extra $20/mo. after the promo expires. :eek:

beowulf - post your antennaweb results here and we can give you better advice, but I suspect at 33 miles it's going to be the standard "DFW antenna" recommendation - the CM4228. Depending on your exact location you may need the CM7777 preamp.
Most of the antenna types are "yellow - uhf" with some "yellow - vhf", both of which recommend a small multi-directional antenna. When I filter for "digital stations only", there are 11 yellow, 2 red, and 1 blue antennas/stations that are displayed.

Do you want me to post a screen capture that shows all the details? Thanks.

For a second, I thought you said "Bob Barker" (of "The Price is Right"). :D

Thanks for the recommendation. Do you remember what is rates were for the installation? I've heard good things about Dish Network so I'll probably first give them a try as I mentioned in my previous post. I just hope I don't get too addicted to cable b/c I don't want to pay the extra $20/mo. after the promo expires. :eek:

Nahh, he's Bob Baker of Bob's Audio/Video Connection. I can't remember his rates right off hand, but they are a heck of a lot less than Marving Electronics. No overhead, he works by himself. He is also a DBS installer.

I also appreciate his patience after installation. He will answer questions and guide you in solving any problems you might run into. A great guy!

Not sure what you mean by that, as I'm playing 1080p just fine on my LCD TV and 6600GT. You mean 1080i on a tube? I would think 1080i would be a lot easier than 1080p, since the native format of HD TV programming is either 720i or 1080i.I probably need to clarify.

When you play back HD TS with software on a PC, you use the VGA card's display pipeline. If you set up your PC to output 1080i, naturally playing back the HD TS will be at 1080i. That is what will be fed to your TV.

The problem comes in when you have a 1080i stream. Obviously, the player will decode the 60 fields sequentually. Just as obviously, when you decode the even field from the stream, you should output the even field to the display. That's where the problem lies. For some reason (and having worked on VGA cards extensively, I know this is a programmer limitation, not a hardware issue) these two pieces to the puzzle are not synchronized. So during playback for example, the odd field may be being output to the TV, based on an even field that was just decoded.

Depending on the player/decoder, film-based material might not look too bad (it should be inverse telecined). But live video (like sports, the Tonight Show, etc.) suffers. What's normally given to the TV is an interpolated version of the other field. Ech!

Anyway, if your TV is not a CRT, then it has a progressive display. If you use 720p, the computer will deinterlace 1080i (and scale it), and it will look fine (with the requisite/arguable loss of vertical resolution). If you can use 1080p, the same is true. But if you need to use 1080i, you will see the artifacts above when watching video that didn't originate on film.

Above I stated that this was true for a 1080i display. But on second thought, this would be true for a TV that only accepted 1080i as well.

Xesdeeni

Ah. That makes total since. That little i and p make a big difference.

Guess everyone needs to get a progressive scan TV! ;)

beowulf - yes, post your results - digital stations only if that's all you need.

Nahh, he's Bob Baker of Bob's Audio/Video Connection. I can't remember his rates right off hand, but they are a heck of a lot less than Marving Electronics. No overhead, he works by himself. He is also a DBS installer.

I also appreciate his patience after installation. He will answer questions and guide you in solving any problems you might run into. A great guy!
OK, sounds good. I'll give Bob Baker a call when I'm ready for my HTS, which should be around Spring 2007.

I just recently saw Marvin Electronics in the yellow pages while searching for something else ("home theater" was on the same page as "home inspectors"). I was going to stop by there to check it out since it's located conveniently in FW.

OK, sounds good. I'll give Bob Baker a call when I'm ready for my HTS, which should be around Spring 2007.

I just recently saw Marvin Electronics in the yellow pages while searching for something else ("home theater" was on the same page as "home inspectors"). I was going to stop by there to check it out since it's located conveniently in FW.

Marvin Electronics is a pioneer in a/v equipment in FTW. They used to be in University Ave. by TCU. A few yrs ago they moved to their present location at Hulen. Lots of high end equipment at very high prices. If you are travelling on I20, it's just north on the west side of Hulen. You might as well go north on Hulen after your visit to Marvin and check out Central Market, just south of I30. We usually visit Central Market every week and load up on all kinds of food. We usually stop for lunch at Mi Cocina, it's in the same shopping area.

Hugh

beowulf - yes, post your results - digital stations only if that's all you need.
Here are my AntennaWeb results (digital only). I'm a little concerned that CBS (digital) doesn't appear in that list. Then again, AntennaWeb might be acting a little too conservatively, as it implies in the note.

Marvin Electronics is a pioneer in a/v equipment in FTW. They used to be in University Ave. by TCU. A few yrs ago they moved to their present location at Hulen. Lots of high end equipment at very high prices. If you are travelling on I20, it's just north on the west side of Hulen. You might as well go north on Hulen after your visit to Marvin and check out Central Market, just south of I30. We usually visit Central Market every week and load up on all kinds of food. We usually stop for lunch at Mi Cocina, it's in the same shopping area.

Hugh
Thanks, I'll check out Marvin E for the heck of it to see what they have. I figure it'll be more educational than browsing HTSs at BB, CC, etc., although I will do that as well.

I went to Central Market for the first time last week. It's petty nice there. I also saw the Mi Cocina restaurant there but haven't gone there yet.

Last couple of days (I have E*) Fox has been about 1/2 second out of sync....anyone else notice?

Last couple of days (I have E*) Fox has been about 1/2 second out of sync....anyone else notice?

Yeah, my wife noticed it on ABC. We switched to OTA and it was obviouly a DishNet problem. I didn't check on Fox since I seem inmune to this effect and mywife was not about to watch the baseball game.

Thanks, I'll check out Marvin E for the heck of it to see what they have. I figure it'll be more educational than browsing HTSs at BB, CC, etc., although I will do that as well.

I went to Central Market for the first time last week. It's petty nice there. I also saw the Mi Cocina restaurant there but haven't gone there yet.



LOL.......I went to TCU. About 10 years ago I walked into Marvin to get some Bose satellite speakers for my first apartment. Sales guy walked up to me and asked if he could help. When I told him what I was looking for he said "we only carry the highest quality audio and video equipment, and Bose doesn't exactly fall into that category."

Needless to say, you will have fun looking at all their products....and if you can afford anything they offer, more power to ya!

Yeah, my wife noticed it on ABC. We switched to OTA and it was obviouly a DishNet problem. I didn't check on Fox since I seem inmune to this effect and mywife was not about to watch the baseball game.

I did check the others and for me it only seems to be FOX....

beowulf - it's interesting that CBS is missing. 13.1 (channel 14) which is PBS is also missing. If you move around a few miles from your location the two stations come and go in the antennaweb listing.

It looks like the CM4228 will be your best choice because it is a great UHF antenna with good performance on VHF-hi; certainly should be OK with WFAA on channel 9 (which will move back to channel 8 when analog goes away). You could also use an antennas direct 91XG, again good performance on VHF-hi. I would have thought that at 34 miles you might get away without a preamp but it looks like you might need one (CM7777) to get consistent results on CBS and PBS based on the antennaweb results.

For the 91xg you would have to order from antennas direct. The CM4228 is occasionally available in DFW at Frys but if not then solidsignal.com or Warren Electronics. Your best deal would be to order the CM7777 at the same time, as I said it is possible you will not need it but if it were me I would get one.

LOL.......I went to TCU. About 10 years ago I walked into Marvin to get some Bose satellite speakers for my first apartment. Sales guy walked up to me and asked if he could help. When I told him what I was looking for he said "we only carry the highest quality audio and video equipment, and Bose doesn't exactly fall into that category."

Needless to say, you will have fun looking at all their products....and if you can afford anything they offer, more power to ya!
LOL ... thumbs up to the Marvin guy for not trying to dupe people into thinking overpriced Bose = high quality.

I guess I can check out Marvin's for the heck of it to see what I'd like to get someday when I retire rich. :p It looks like they're located pretty close to the Hulen Mall area. I was near there today (near where Bryant Irvin and Rt. 20 intersect) for dinner.

beowulf - it's interesting that CBS is missing. 13.1 (channel 14) which is PBS is also missing. If you move around a few miles from your location the two stations come and go in the antennaweb listing.

It looks like the CM4228 will be your best choice because it is a great UHF antenna with good performance on VHF-hi; certainly should be OK with WFAA on channel 9 (which will move back to channel 8 when analog goes away). You could also use an antennas direct 91XG, again good performance on VHF-hi. I would have thought that at 34 miles you might get away without a preamp but it looks like you might need one (CM7777) to get consistent results on CBS and PBS based on the antennaweb results.

For the 91xg you would have to order from antennas direct. The CM4228 is occasionally available in DFW at Frys but if not then solidsignal.com or Warren Electronics. Your best deal would be to order the CM7777 at the same time, as I said it is possible you will not need it but if it were me I would get one.
Yeah, it is weird how CBS isn't showing up as a digital station from where I'll be moving to. I'll play around w/ the location for other streets within a mile of where I'll be just to see if it's some fluke thing that doesn't show up on their Web site from that particular location.

I do need CBS since I watch "Numb3rs", "David Letterman", and the occasional AFC football game (although I'm much more of an NFC/FOX fan).

Thanks for the recommendations on antennas (antennae?). I will keep them in mind. :) I've also been thinking of attic mounting the antenna instead of roof mounting it. I was encouraged in this by an article I recently read (which I'll soon post here).

I came across this very informative article on Crutchfield (http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/I-rEUPcUHH/learningcenter/home/M-UF275/antenna.html) titled, Choosing & Installing an Antenna for HDTV.

Here's the intro.

TV antennas may seem like relics from the last century, but a growing number of viewers are finding them to be indispensable in getting the best picture from their HDTVs.

In this article, we'll discuss the advantages of over-the-air (OTA) reception and explain how to find digital TV signals in your local TV market and in nearby cities. We'll introduce the different types of TV antennas and tell you which ones perform best under various reception conditions. And we'll offer tips on how to install larger attic- and roof-mount antennas.

some chatter on dslreports that Time Warner has been testing HDNet on their system and it even showed up on ch. 417 for a brief period of time.

beowulf - yes, that's a good article. I like the picture of the CM4228!!!
My CM4228 is mounted in the attic and I get all the DFW stations at 40+ miles. Your reception area is more difficult than mine but it's worth a try, especially with the CM7777.

Whatever you do about antenna...stay away from amplifiers! It's best to purchase a larger antena that will provide you with a better signal/to noise ratio. Amps are not worth the extra $$$ and the problems they bring.

Bob can provide you with the antenna you need and save you money and problems associated with amps. Geez, I have never heard of anyone needing an amp for a 35 mile reception! All they do is amplify noise!

I go back to the fifties when I was stationed in Biloxi 80 miles from New Orleans on one side an Mobile on the other side. I purchased the largest antenna and a rotor and never needed an amp.

I again appreciate your input, texasbrit and hughh. If I do get an attic-mounted antenna, then I guess I can get the largest antenna that will physically fit in the attic opening. The CM4228 does seem like a good option and I'm encouraged how the Crutchfield guy was able to pull a good strong signal to watch the Super Bowl.

Now my only other dilemma is I'd surely have non-HD capable TVs. So I'd need the hybrid ability to watch HD on the new HDTV I plan to get and non-HD on my current TV, which would probably go in the bedroom. I don't think cable companies service my area yet. So I guess in theory, I can get D* or E* (non-HD) to watch on those TVs and use OTA HD to watch on my proposed brand new TV.

I know OTA for analog (non-HD) stinks. I don't want to go through that again and deal with foil and rabbit ears.

Big antenna = good signal.
Amplifier = bigger signal, but bigger noise.

Amplifiers are best for getting a signal down an antenna pole, off a roof, or distributing it around the house, without adding any additional noise. But they can't get more signal out of the air.

Xesdeeni

Your problem with older non-digital TVs and OTA is that many of the analog stations are on VHF (and some on VHF-lo) and to get those you need a large VHF antenna. The CM4228 will not get you channels 4 and 5 in analog.

As far as the preamp is concerned, yes you possibly won't need a preamp, although the combination of attic mount (can lose 50% of the signal) and what looks like for some reason a less than optimum location (based on the antennaweb results which show you not getting CBS and PBS) means you might be looking to preserve as much signal as you can. I don't need one for my installation, although my PBS signal is a bit marginal, and antennaweb shows you are in a worse reception location than I am although you are closer in to the transmitters.
It's true that a preamp will not create signal where none exists, and preamps will amplify the noise just as much as the signal. Ideally you should try the CM4228 without the preamp and then add it only if you need it. My comment about getting the antenna and preamp together was based just on saving on shipping costs.

I'm a newbie and just discovered the forum. I'm in Frisco and have always had problems getting 8-1 consistently, but it's been clear this past week. Does anyone know if WFAA did something to boost the signal or am I just getting lucky? In the past, I needed a very clear day to get a signal. Now I even got a signal this past Sunday when we had heavy rain.

Thanks for any info.

Hello there -- I'm brand-new here and very much ignorant in the ways of A/V setups, but I was hoping someone here might be able to help me out.

I recently upgraded to HD via D*. I have an HR10-250 and the tech installed an antenna in my attic for OTA local channels. The results are mixed: ABC comes in perfectly, NBC suffers from a bit of pixelization from time to time, and I can't get CBS at all. I've tried fiddling with the antenna slightly but it seems to be an either/or when it comes to CBS.

I planed to post a screencap of my antennaweb results but apparently you have to have 5 posts to do that. Suffice it to say I'm located in North Dallas and the farthest broadcast appears to be 24 miles from me.

My questions are:

1. Since I appear to be fairly close to the broadcast towers, can I simply upgrade or somehow boost the strength of an attic antenna and be able to receive all the channels?

2. Are there local stores, such as Radio Shack, where I could buy this type of antenna and possibly return it if it doesn't work?

3. How much am I looking at spending on top of the $49 D* charged me for a piece of crap?

Thanks very much in advance for any advice you might have for an admitted novice.

Your problem with older non-digital TVs and OTA is that many of the analog stations are on VHF (and some on VHF-lo) and to get those you need a large VHF antenna. The CM4228 will not get you channels 4 and 5 in analog.

As far as the preamp is concerned, yes you possibly won't need a preamp, although the combination of attic mount (can lose 50% of the signal) and what looks like for some reason a less than optimum location (based on the antennaweb results which show you not getting CBS and PBS) means you might be looking to preserve as much signal as you can. I don't need one for my installation, although my PBS signal is a bit marginal, and antennaweb shows you are in a worse reception location than I am although you are closer in to the transmitters.
It's true that a preamp will not create signal where none exists, and preamps will amplify the noise just as much as the signal. Ideally you should try the CM4228 without the preamp and then add it only if you need it. My comment about getting the antenna and preamp together was based just on saving on shipping costs.
I will need to find a place that has a good return policy. So that I can first try attic-mounting the antenna (such as CM4228) without the amp and see how that works. If that works, then I'd try it with an amp. And if that still fails, then I'd try another antenna (perhaps per Bob Baker's suggestion). And finally, if that still fails, then I get HD through D* or E* or try to do a roof mount for OTA HD.

I've wondered this for a while but haven't learned the answer yet, so I'll ask here:
Why is DirecTV called D* and Dish Network called E*? :confused:

(At least they're in alphabetical order, thank goodness.)

Dishnetwork started off as Echostar...

Fry's sometimes has the CM4228...otherwise it's usually an online order. solidsignal, warren electronics, crutchfield...

karolina - what's your zip code??

Dishnetwork started off as Echostar...
Thanks, that would explain it. :)

I'm a newbie and just discovered the forum. I'm in Frisco and have always had problems getting 8-1 consistently, but it's been clear this past week. Does anyone know if WFAA did something to boost the signal or am I just getting lucky? In the past, I needed a very clear day to get a signal. Now I even got a signal this past Sunday when we had heavy rain.

Thanks for any info.

I haven't noticed any changes in my ch 8 reception.

Weather affects OTA reception but not in a way you might think. Clear or rainy usually has no effect. What affects the signal more than anything is the layers of hot and cold air in the atmosphere. These layers when dense enough cn cause strange effects such as beding the signal in a way that you may not be able to pick-up a local VHF station clearly and also being able to pick-up distant stations.

I remember when we used to live in FTW (Carswell AFB) I would lose certain Dallas (analog) stations and pick-up Florida stations. The effect didn't last but a few hours. This was referred to as anomolous propagation and it was usually early in the AM or late in the PM during early Spring and Autum.

Now, I am not saying this is what's going on with your antenna. I don't know if yours is on the roof (moved by a strong wind gust) or where.

I suggest you post your question in the Dallas users board here: http://dhtg.napurano.com/

There are many knowledgeable members as well as local tv station engineers.
I am sure you will get help.

Hugh in Arlington

Thanks, that would explain it. :)

Echostar:

EchoStar Communications' DISH Network serves up fare that whets almost everyone's entertainment appetite. The company is the #2 US direct broadcast satellite (DBS) TV provider, behind DIRECTV, with the DISH Network providing programming to more than 12 million subscribers. EchoStar has formed alliances with ISPs and voice communications providers such as EarthLink, Qwest, and Sprint Nextel to offer combined services. Subsidiary EchoStar Technologies develops DBS hardware such as dishes, set-top boxes, and other digital equipment, both for the DISH Network and others. Co-founder and CEO Charlie Ergen controls the company with a 48% equity stake (and control of the vote).

Echostar:

EchoStar Communications' DISH Network serves up fare that whets almost everyone's entertainment appetite. The company is the #2 US direct broadcast satellite (DBS) TV provider, behind DIRECTV, with the DISH Network providing programming to more than 12 million subscribers. EchoStar has formed alliances with ISPs and voice communications providers such as EarthLink, Qwest, and Sprint Nextel to offer combined services. Subsidiary EchoStar Technologies develops DBS hardware such as dishes, set-top boxes, and other digital equipment, both for the DISH Network and others. Co-founder and CEO Charlie Ergen controls the company with a 48% equity stake (and control of the vote).
Out of D* and E*, which one owns Voom? I remember that satellite company and then heard that they got bought out by a competitor, which would have to be D or E.

It's 75229.

huhh -

Thanks for the info. I went to that sight but it doesn't seem too active. I'll just keep my fingers crossed that I'll continue to get good reception on 8-1.

As far as my antenna, it's attached to the directv dish. I also have an amp which helps boost the 8-1 signal.

I've been thinking about getting a big antenna to stick in the attic but I'm not sure how well it'll work. Just looking for the easiest fix. I'm not a techie type of guy or do it yourself person.

huhh -

Thanks for the info. I went to that sight but it doesn't seem too active. I'll just keep my fingers crossed that I'll continue to get good reception on 8-1.

As far as my antenna, it's attached to the directv dish. I also have an amp which helps boost the 8-1 signal.

I've been thinking about getting a big antenna to stick in the attic but I'm not sure how well it'll work. Just looking for the easiest fix. I'm not a techie type of guy or do it yourself person.

Is it actually, physically attached to the dish? If it is, then that might be the problem. It may not be aimed properly and or not big enough for the job.

That site is not too active, until someone posts a question, that is. Give it a try.
Also. look at all the antenna info under "hardware".
Hugh

Out of D* and E*, which one owns Voom? I remember that satellite company and then heard that they got bought out by a competitor, which would have to be D or E.

I can't remember if Echostar bought VOOM. I think the bought the programming. That's the reason E* has more HD programming than D* and also the reason I bailed out of D*.

I can't remember if Echostar bought VOOM. I think the bought the programming. That's the reason E* has more HD programming than D* and also the reason I bailed out of D*.

I'm farily certain that E* bought about a 20% or so stake in Voom, with the rest still controlled by the Dolan's (Of Cablevision fame) via a division called Rainbow Media HD Holdings something or other...

When all else fails, try good ole Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voom).

^ Cool, thanks for the Wikipedia link.

karolinatx - this is what I get from antennaweb for your zip code>

yellow - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 191° 22.2 41
* yellow - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 191° 22.2 40
* yellow - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 189° 22.4 19
* yellow - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 188° 24.9 18
* yellow - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 188° 24.9 48
* yellow - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 i ARLINGTON TX 192° 21.9 42
* yellow - uhf KMPX-DT 30.1 DAY DECATUR TX 242° 4.0 30
* yellow - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 192° 22.0 24
* yellow - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 188° 24.9 43
* yellow - uhf KERA-DT 13.1 PBS DALLAS TX 189° 22.4 14
* yellow - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 192° 22.0 51
* yellow - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 CW DALLAS TX 188° 24.9 32
* green - uhf KLDT-DT 55.1 IND LAKE DALLAS TX 312° 10.5 54
* green - uhf KDTX-DT 58.1 TBN DALLAS TX 192° 22.0 45
* red - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 193° 22.4 9
* red - uhf KDFI-DT 27.1 MNT DALLAS TX 188° 24.9 36
* blue - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 193° 22.4 35

I don't know what sort of antenna DirecTV installed but my guess is it simply isn't good enough for an attic installation in your location.

Your options are probably:
1) Mount the antenna outside. You lose up to half the signal strength with an attic installation
2) Upgrade your antenna. Everything in DFW is currently UHF except for WFAA - there will be some movement of channels when analog goes away but it will still be just UHF and VHF-hi. The CM4228 is your best choice, lots of people in DFW use it (including me - I have an attic installation at 42 miles from the transmitters), it's one of the few UHF antennas that does a good job on VHF-hi.
You can sometimes get the CM4228 at Fry's, otherwise it's online at solidsignal, warren electronics, crutchfield and others. I don't think there is much chance you will have to return it, so long as your attic is tall enough to accommodate it (it's a 4ft square vertical panel)

Hi everyone, long time lurker, first time poster.

Let me get right down to it... About 18 months ago, I had an Topp Robertson put an OTA antenna in the attic of my garage. I live in Frisco, between Independence and Custer. The install went quickly and worked great! I was able to get every major HDTV signal available.

About a 6 weeks ago, 4-1 (KDFW HD) just stopped working. I still get the other channels, just not Fox.

Unfortunately, I am a newb, so I couldn't tell you what antenna Topp installed, but since it worked before, I think it should still be able to work.

Right now, I don't know how I might get Fox back. Shoud I try moving the antenna to the roof, or what?

I feel pretty lost... :(

-Thlayli

Hi everyone, long time lurker, first time poster.

Let me get right down to it... About 18 months ago, I had an Topp Robertson put an OTA antenna in the attic of my garage. I live in Frisco, between Independence and Custer. The install went quickly and worked great! I was able to get every major HDTV signal available.

About a 6 weeks ago, 4-1 (KDFW HD) just stopped working. I still get the other channels, just not Fox.

Unfortunately, I am a newb, so I couldn't tell you what antenna Topp installed, but since it worked before, I think it should still be able to work.

Right now, I don't know how I might get Fox back. Shoud I try moving the antenna to the roof, or what?

I feel pretty lost... :(

-Thlayli

I'm going to suggest my old standby...it has worked in similar situations for some folks on here. Disconnect the antenna from your HD receiver (or TV - whichever applies). Then do a scan. Then reconnect the antenna and scan again. It is worth a shot, anyway....

Good luck,
Randy

I'm going to suggest my old standby...it has worked in similar situations for some folks on here. Disconnect the antenna from your HD receiver (or TV - whichever applies). Then do a scan. Then reconnect the antenna and scan again. It is worth a shot, anyway....

Good luck,
Randy
Randy, great suggestion. That usually works for me too.

thalyli - If you lost Topp's phone numbers here they are. You might as well call him, he has more knowledge than anyone I know on this board. After all, this is his profession.

Topp Robertson
Applied Digital Science
analog land line: 817-329-0962
digital wireless: 214-766-3487
web: http://www.idigscience.com
email: topp@idigscience.com

Thanks guys! I'll try the "disconnect and scan" thing, and then give Topp a call if I still have problems.

Appreciate the advice!

-Thlayli

Don't know if this will help, but I was not receiving 11.1 at all on my HR10-250, and had lots of pixillation on the Sony A2000. Apparently there's a lot of signal bounce off the buildings on 635. Topp Robertson came to my house and tried (as a last resort after nothing else worked) turning the antenna away from the signal. On the HR10-250, 4.1 weakened quite a bit but still is mostly OK, and 11.1 came in with acceptable strength. The other stations weakened some also, but all had been strong enough that they still work fine. The Sony TV has a much better tuner, and all high-def stations now come in strong on the feed directly to the TV. According to antennaweb, 11.1 should be my strongest high-def signal, and 4.1 doesn't even appear on the list.

mbuser - yes, multipath will do that. I am out just east of Allen about 40 miles from the transmitters at Cedar Hill and could not get PBS 13.1 (channel 14). I checked the analog station and saw really bad ghosting , a good indicator of multipath. Then I adjusted my antenna until the analog ghosting was at a minimum (it never disappeared completely) and PBS digital magically appeared at good signal quality. I am about 10 degrees away from the true transmitter direction, saw some signal loss on a couple of the other DFW stations (including 11.1) but nothing that was a problem (I am using a CM4228 by the way)

^ texasbrit, you mentioned that you're getting "good signal quality" with PBS digital. Shouldn't OTA HD be either perfect or nonexistent and not somewhere in between such as "good" that you mentioned? Or were you strictly referring to the signal strength?

Has anyone noticed what looks like sparkly static on KXAS's broadcast? It's analog noise, but it's in the digital signal. I can't tell if it's in the feed from NBC to KXAS or if it's introduced locally, but it's definitely annoying.

Xesdeeni

beowulf - the reading you see on your receiver isn't signal strength, it's a sort of "quality" indication. You can have a very strong signal but with bad multipath and it will give you a very low reading on the meter. Above a certain "quality" the receiver will lock onto the signal and OTA will be "perfect" (assuming the signal stays locked) but below that you get nothing.

Has anyone noticed what looks like sparkly static on KXAS's broadcast? It's analog noise, but it's in the digital signal. I can't tell if it's in the feed from NBC to KXAS or if it's introduced locally, but it's definitely annoying.

Xesdeeni

I have noticed the same thing. It's more noticeable when there's black on the screen. I noticed it both on my antenna and on cable.

I have noticed the same thing. It's more noticeable when there's black on the screen. I noticed it both on my antenna and on cable.

You guys need to be more specific. Are you referring to the OTA signal? If not, which is your provider? Is this artifact noticeable on all programs, on certain shows, on HD as well as annalog? Or what?

Also, what is your TV, 720p. 1080i. 1080p?
Hugh

beowulf - the reading you see on your receiver isn't signal strength, it's a sort of "quality" indication. You can have a very strong signal but with bad multipath and it will give you a very low reading on the meter. Above a certain "quality" the receiver will lock onto the signal and OTA will be "perfect" (assuming the signal stays locked) but below that you get nothing.
OK, that confirms what I thought you were saying. It was the reading on your TV (receiver) that you called "good signal quality" and now the quality you actually saw with your eyes displayed on your TV.

Totally changing topics here but staying within the main topic ... how does ESPN HD look with cable/satellite. (Obviously, OTA can't do ESPN.) What shows ESPN HD the best, DirecTV, Dish Network, or a cable company (Time Warner, Comcast, Charter, whoever services the D/FW area)? I'm asking this b/c I saw the Giants/Cowboys game on regular (SD) ESPN, but saw ESPN advertising "HD" several times through the football game.

The ESPN HD feed is good quality with TW in the Plano area, but the audio is a problem. The HD audio is much lower than the local non HD produced commercials, so you get a blaring sound blast that is three times louder than the normal broadcast. These are not the same commercials as you are seeing on the SD feed, as I had multiple TV's on and there were different commercials at the breaks. ANd to make it worse, sometimes they show the same annoying 30 second ad back to back. Winstar Casinos ("that's Darrion") and now the loud mouth lawyer that goes by the name "the hammer". I have to mute the TV during the commercials. Pain in the butt.

You guys need to be more specific. Are you referring to the OTA signal?Yes.Is this artifact noticeable on all programs, on certain shows, on HD as well as annalog?Who watches analog!? ;-)

I don't watch too many shows on NBC (from the ratings, it seems I'm not alone). I've specifically noticed it on ER and Studio 60. I haven't looked for it elsewhere.Also, what is your TV, 720p. 1080i. 1080p?1080i, but that doesn't matter. I can record OTA HD, and if I pause the show, the static pauses too. It's in the signal. If you really want me to, I can post a screen grab.

Xesdeeni

The 'sparking' sound on KXAS OTA HD audio has been there for years. Most of the time it seemed to occur going into or coming out of commercial breaks, seeming to go along with the switch from HD to SD or maybe from the Network feed to the local feed (and visa versa).

Watch any SNL show and you will hear it alot.

OK, that confirms what I thought you were saying. It was the reading on your TV (receiver) that you called "good signal quality" and now the quality you actually saw with your eyes displayed on your TV.

Totally changing topics here but staying within the main topic ... how does ESPN HD look with cable/satellite. (Obviously, OTA can't do ESPN.) What shows ESPN HD the best, DirecTV, Dish Network, or a cable company (Time Warner, Comcast, Charter, whoever services the D/FW area)? I'm asking this b/c I saw the Giants/Cowboys game on regular (SD) ESPN, but saw ESPN advertising "HD" several times through the football game.
I've got FIOS as well as Dish and both HD signals are excellent. If I had to make a choice, I'd say FIOS was a little better, but they're both just about the same.

The ESPN HD feed is good quality with TW in the Plano area, but the audio is a problem. The HD audio is much lower than the local non HD produced commercials, so you get a blaring sound blast that is three times louder than the normal broadcast. These are not the same commercials as you are seeing on the SD feed, as I had multiple TV's on and there were different commercials at the breaks. ANd to make it worse, sometimes they show the same annoying 30 second ad back to back. Winstar Casinos ("that's Darrion") and now the loud mouth lawyer that goes by the name "the hammer". I have to mute the TV during the commercials. Pain in the butt.
That's odd. I would've thought that if there were any imperfections with hi-def cable channels, it would be with picture and not audio. Some TVs have a feature that normalizes sound so that loud TV commercials are automatically lowered in volume. Perhaps that would help, although it would detract the experience of watching movies with loud special effects (unless that feature is selectively turned off).

I've got FIOS as well as Dish and both HD signals are excellent. If I had to make a choice, I'd say FIOS was a little better, but they're both just about the same.
I thought FIOS was Verizon's high-speed DSL. They also provide cable TV through that line? Good to hear that Dish's ESPN HD is so good. At this point, I'm not sure I'd get those cable channels. A lot would depend on how well (or not so well) my OTA HD does once I move to my new residence.

FIOS = Fibre optic service. Cheaper, faster internet. Cheaper cable with much, much, much better quality, more channels, more HD. Now in Keller, Plano, Garland and Rowlett. I'm sure its in some others too, but can't think of where off the top of my head.

FIOS = Fibre optic service. Cheaper, faster internet. Cheaper cable with much, much, much better quality, more channels, more HD. Now in Keller, Plano, Garland and Rowlett. I'm sure its in some others too, but can't think of where off the top of my head.
Let me make a minor correction........Not more HD. Dish has about 10 more channels that are HD, although most of the channel are from the Voom system. Dish gives you all the locals in HD as well as all the channels FIOS has (Discovery HD, ESPN HD, etc). Dish adds the old Voom channels such as Monsters, Rave and about 8 more. The additional channels aren't mainstream, but sometimes have decent programming.

I thought FIOS was Verizon's high-speed DSL. They also provide cable TV through that line? Good to hear that Dish's ESPN HD is so good. At this point, I'm not sure I'd get those cable channels. A lot would depend on how well (or not so well) my OTA HD does once I move to my new residence.
It can be a complete package of phone, high speed internet (high, high speed!) and cable. Some people say the channels are much clearer than anything other than OTA. My personal opinion is that it's slightly better than Dish, but hardly noticeable on my TV.

My internet speed is extremely fast. Having all three in one package makes things better as well.

^ OK, thanks for the clarification, gentlemen. I knew what FIOS stands for, but I didn't know Verizon (or whatever other companies are offering it) bundled cable TV with it.

So who serves FIOS down here? Verizon? You guys are lucky if you get it in Carrolton. The last time I checked Verizon's Web site, I plugged in my Zip code and VZ said FIOS was a no-go. :(

^ OK, thanks for the clarification, gentlemen. I knew what FIOS stands for, but I didn't know Verizon (or whatever other companies are offering it) bundled cable TV with it.

So who serves FIOS down here? Verizon? You guys are lucky if you get it in Carrolton. The last time I checked Verizon's Web site, I plugged in my Zip code and VZ said FIOS was a no-go. :(
If you're in an area where Verizon serves as your phone service, there's a possibility you might get it. Right now, it's still learning how to crawl and is only in a few areas of North Texas. Eventually, it'll continue to spread to other areas where Verizon provides phone service. I know there are places in MD, VA, NY, FL and CA that are also getting this service as well. It's definitely an excellent package.

If you're in an area where Verizon serves as your phone service, there's a possibility you might get it. Right now, it's still learning how to crawl and is only in a few areas of North Texas. Eventually, it'll continue to spread to other areas where Verizon provides phone service. I know there are places in MD, VA, NY, FL and CA that are also getting this service as well. It's definitely an excellent package.
Yeah, but with my luck, it will be a while before VZ FIOS comes to my part of FW. :(

I'm speaking from experience, too. My town in NJ was probably the last town in South Jersey to get cable Internet service. Towns literally a mile or 2 away had high-speed cable Internet (Comcast) about 3-4 years before we finally got it. :mad: And it's not like I lived in a crappy run-down town, although it was more blue collar than those other towns.

Yeah, but with my luck, it will be a while before VZ FIOS comes to my part of FW. :(

I'm speaking from experience, too. My town in NJ was probably the last town in South Jersey to get cable Internet service. Towns literally a mile or 2 away had high-speed cable Internet (Comcast) about 3-4 years before we finally got it. :mad: And it's not like I lived in a crappy run-down town, although it was more blue collar than those other towns.
I'm sure Verizon has a rollout plan, but they play it close to the vest. The longer you wait for it, the more you'll appreciate it (yeah, right)!

I tell myself patience is virtue. Heck, I had faster Internet back in NJ (6.0 Mbps vs. my current pokey 1.5 Mbps through AT&T/SBC DSL).

I need speed, dammit!! Hi-def would be nice, too, but I've never had that before, so I'm not used to it.

The typical MO is that FIOS shows up for internet/phone service, and it seems within 6-9 months they will begin to offer video service. If I remember correctly, FIOS TV is offered in 15-20 communities around DFW. HOWEVER, it will only be installed where verizon offers phone service. So, beowulf7, if you are in an AT&T local phone territory, Verizon FIOS will not be available in your area. AT&T is doing a trial of a similar service in San Antonio that I believe uses a newer version of DSL to get faster speeds over your existing copper lines (and only doing FIBER to your local distribution point in your neighborhood) Verizon is installing brand new Fiber lines all the way to the side of your house.

For the HD comparison, FIOS should have the better picture quality purely because of the bandwidth they have available to your house. They CAN (of course, doesn't mean that the will) offer HD without having to over-compress or down-rez it like Dish is doing with most of its HD channels. That being said, HD beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. Depending on the person, room conditions, type of TV, time of day, etc... FIOS and Dish can look the same or they can look slightly different or they can look drastically different.

Dish has 15 VOOM channels that FIOS doesn't have. Also, Dish has Food Network HD and HGTV-HD. FIOS has 2 HD channels that Dish doesn't have (Wealth TV and MTV). Also, FIOS has 2 more premium HD channels (Cinemax HD and TMC HD). Finally, FIOS offers most of the local HD channels via its service whereas Dish offers only 4,5,8,11 from Satellite but all of its HD boxes have a built in OTA tuner to get all your locals in their full bandwidth form (in the case of CBS/FOX) or compressed because of multi-cast form (nearly anything else).

I stayed with Dish because of some of the distinguishing things it has. My kids watch as much TV as me, so have East/West coast feeds of all the kids channels is a must... in addition to Dish DVRs that hold twice as much programming as the Verizon boxes. Also, there are other things I like about my boxes that aren't available w/ Verizon (UHF remotes, 3 built-in tuners per box, much much better user interface, dish pass, etc)... but that is just me. If all I wanted was the best picture around, I would've gone to FIOS. But I have more wants/needs then just the best picture.

EDIT: The typical MO above is for locations that Verizon has already received a cable franchise. In TX, they have a state wide frachise (thanks to a new bill passed last year), in other states it can take much longer to work with each city to get a frachise.

The 'sparking' sound on KXAS OTA HD audio has been there for years.I'm talking about "sparkling" (impulse noise) on the image, not in the sound.

Xesdeeni

Yes, there is a sparkly or glittery effect to the picture on KXAS...it is very visible during Leno's monologue.

The audio also crackles. They're 0 for 2.

The typical MO is that FIOS shows up for internet/phone service, and it seems within 6-9 months they will begin to offer video service. If I remember correctly, FIOS TV is offered in 15-20 communities around DFW. HOWEVER, it will only be installed where verizon offers phone service. So, beowulf7, if you are in an AT&T local phone territory, Verizon FIOS will not be available in your area. AT&T is doing a trial of a similar service in San Antonio that I believe uses a newer version of DSL to get faster speeds over your existing copper lines (and only doing FIBER to your local distribution point in your neighborhood) Verizon is installing brand new Fiber lines all the way to the side of your house.

For the HD comparison, FIOS should have the better picture quality purely because of the bandwidth they have available to your house. They CAN (of course, doesn't mean that the will) offer HD without having to over-compress or down-rez it like Dish is doing with most of its HD channels. That being said, HD beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. Depending on the person, room conditions, type of TV, time of day, etc... FIOS and Dish can look the same or they can look slightly different or they can look drastically different.

Dish has 15 VOOM channels that FIOS doesn't have. Also, Dish has Food Network HD and HGTV-HD. FIOS has 2 HD channels that Dish doesn't have (Wealth TV and MTV). Also, FIOS has 2 more premium HD channels (Cinemax HD and TMC HD). Finally, FIOS offers most of the local HD channels via its service whereas Dish offers only 4,5,8,11 from Satellite but all of its HD boxes have a built in OTA tuner to get all your locals in their full bandwidth form (in the case of CBS/FOX) or compressed because of multi-cast form (nearly anything else).

I stayed with Dish because of some of the distinguishing things it has. My kids watch as much TV as me, so have East/West coast feeds of all the kids channels is a must... in addition to Dish DVRs that hold twice as much programming as the Verizon boxes. Also, there are other things I like about my boxes that aren't available w/ Verizon (UHF remotes, 3 built-in tuners per box, much much better user interface, dish pass, etc)... but that is just me. If all I wanted was the best picture around, I would've gone to FIOS. But I have more wants/needs then just the best picture.

EDIT: The typical MO above is for locations that Verizon has already received a cable franchise. In TX, they have a state wide frachise (thanks to a new bill passed last year), in other states it can take much longer to work with each city to get a frachise.
Yes, it looks like AT&T has the monopoly in FW or at least in the area I live in. Hopefully they'll offer fiber service as well. Maybe they're waiting to see how successfull FIOS is for VZ and then will follow if their marketing gurus predict $.

Seeing the talk about upgrades to FIOS make me laugh when I realize that I can't even get cable TV in Mansfield. That was a kind of a shock when I moved here last January. Moving to a new construction home is a large subdivision in a suburb of a large metropolitan area and I don't even have access to cable TV or internet. I consider myself lucky to even get the slowest speed DSL. :mad:

Seeing the talk about upgrades to FIOS make me laugh when I realize that I can't even get cable TV in Mansfield. That was a kind of a shock when I moved here last January. Moving to a new construction home is a large subdivision in a suburb of a large metropolitan area and I don't even have access to cable TV or internet. I consider myself lucky to even get the slowest speed DSL. :mad:
I live in a new construction development (apt.), too. From what I've been told, cable companies don't come in until the development is completely finished. So until then, our only choices are OTA/satellite (for TV) and dial-up/DSL (for Internet). I'm planning on moving to another new construction area within FW so I don't expect to have the availability of cable for a couple years. This is a shock for someone like me who had cable his entire life (while in NJ).

Last night the Mavericks game was supposed to be on HDNET. Is there a problem with HDNET and FIOS regarding the Mavericks game (in Plano)? I sent a note to the folks at HDNET and got this reply:
Hi-

As of now, Verizon is unable to carry the Mavs games for technical
reasons. You may want to contact them with your question regarding
timing on a possible solution.

Thanks!

What is up with that? :mad:

The HDNet Mavs games are provided to service providers as a separate video feed from the main HDNet channel. Depending on provider, they will put the feed on a separate sports only channel or in the case of local cable, they might put it on the HDNet channel in place of whatever is programmed on HDNet.

In the case of Dish & DirecTv, sometimes the special feeds don't get shown because the special sports HD channels are being used by other packages (such as NBA TV HD, NHL Center Ice HD or MLB EI HD).

So, Verizon will have to work on setting up a new video stream connection / downlink / whatever for the special feeds.

Does anyone know if FIOS showed the HDNet games from last Spring? I don't remember if they had them or not.

I'm crashing this thread to celebrate my success with a CM4228. I'm in on the east side of Richardson, I have D* and the HR10-250. When I first went HD, I had a new dish installed on my roof, along with an OTA antenna mounted on the back of the dish. It was the the kind that looks like 1/4 of a CM4228. I could pretty much pick up all the locals consistently except WFAA-8.1, which I could pick up only sometimes, and not much at all lately. It was so frustrating to not be able to watch one of my favorite shows, Lost, in HD. Or even if there was enough reception to watch it, I would always be anticipating the next drop out.

So I broke down and ordered a CM4228, bought a 15' mast at Radio Shack, and mounted it next my garage, mast planted into the ground. I bought a compass to point the thing to 8-1. Now I'm getting ALL locals with a solid 90% signal. This was my first experience mounting any kind of antenna, and it was a smashing success!

It's going to be great to have local HD channels that just work now.

I'm crashing this thread to celebrate my success with a CM4228. I'm in on the east side of Richardson, I have D* and the HR10-250. When I first went HD, I had a new dish installed on my roof, along with an OTA antenna mounted on the back of the dish. It was the the kind that looks like 1/4 of a CM4228. I could pretty much pick up all the locals consistently except WFAA-8.1, which I could pick up only sometimes, and not much at all lately. It was so frustrating to not be able to watch one of my favorite shows, Lost, in HD. Or even if there was enough reception to watch it, I would always be anticipating the next drop out.

So I broke down and ordered a CM4228, bought a 15' mast at Radio Shack, and mounted it next my garage, mast planted into the ground. I bought a compass to point the thing to 8-1. Now I'm getting ALL locals with a solid 90% signal. This was my first experience mounting any kind of antenna, and it was a smashing success!

It's going to be great to have local HD channels that just work now.
Congratulations on your success......I hope you get "Lost" every Wednesday!

I'm crashing this thread to celebrate my success with a CM4228. I'm in on the east side of Richardson, I have D* and the HR10-250. When I first went HD, I had a new dish installed on my roof, along with an OTA antenna mounted on the back of the dish. It was the the kind that looks like 1/4 of a CM4228. I could pretty much pick up all the locals consistently except WFAA-8.1, which I could pick up only sometimes, and not much at all lately. It was so frustrating to not be able to watch one of my favorite shows, Lost, in HD. Or even if there was enough reception to watch it, I would always be anticipating the next drop out.

So I broke down and ordered a CM4228, bought a 15' mast at Radio Shack, and mounted it next my garage, mast planted into the ground. I bought a compass to point the thing to 8-1. Now I'm getting ALL locals with a solid 90% signal. This was my first experience mounting any kind of antenna, and it was a smashing success!

It's going to be great to have local HD channels that just work now.
Nice! I've been reading great things about the CM4228 antenna. BTW, how far are you from the source as far as what antennaweb.org says?

I'd like to see "Lost" on HD soon! But there are only 2 episodes left until they go on hiatus for a while (I think 'til Feb. 2007). So hopefully I'll have HDTV by then.

I'm crashing this thread to celebrate my success with a CM4228. I'm in on the east side of Richardson, I have D* and the HR10-250. When I first went HD, I had a new dish installed on my roof, along with an OTA antenna mounted on the back of the dish. It was the the kind that looks like 1/4 of a CM4228. I could pretty much pick up all the locals consistently except WFAA-8.1, which I could pick up only sometimes, and not much at all lately. It was so frustrating to not be able to watch one of my favorite shows, Lost, in HD. Or even if there was enough reception to watch it, I would always be anticipating the next drop out.

So I broke down and ordered a CM4228, bought a 15' mast at Radio Shack, and mounted it next my garage, mast planted into the ground. I bought a compass to point the thing to 8-1. Now I'm getting ALL locals with a solid 90% signal. This was my first experience mounting any kind of antenna, and it was a smashing success!

It's going to be great to have local HD channels that just work now.


As one of the people on this forum who recommends the CM4228 I am pleased it worked for you.

In DFW all the digital stations are on UHF with the exception of WFAA. When analog stations go away in 2009 WFAA-DT will move from its current frequency of channel 9 back to the old analog frequency at channel 8. KTVT will also move back to its old analog frequency at channel 11, and KFWD will move from its current channel 51 to channel 9. So there will be three stations using VHF-hi.

The CM4228, as well as being one of the best UHF antennas, has also good performance at VHF-hi so it is a great DFW digital antenna. If you want to receive the analog channels between now and 1999 it will NOT give you good reception on channels 4 and 5. To get these stations in analog you will need a good comnbination VHF/UHF antenna or you will need to couple a separate VHF antenna to your UHF setup.

The other UHF antenna which should work well in DFW is the Antennas Direct 91XG, again it apparently has good VHF-hi performance (some say better than the CM4228) although I have not seen a report from anyone using it in DFW. The 91XG is more directional and has better multipath performance.

Sometimes your installation situation will determine which of these antennas is right for you. The CM4228 is a 4ft square vertical panel and the 91XG is a long "boom" antenna. I wanted to do an attic install and there is not enough room in my attic to install a 91XG pointed in the right direction. Attic installations are generally not recommended but may conform to the "wife acceptance factor". And although if you have an HOA they can't prevent you putting up an outside antenna it's sometimes better to avoid the confrontation.

These two antennas, the CM4228 and the 91XG, are the best UHF antennas generally available. You can use them all the way out to far-fringe reception areas (60 miles plus in some case) when coupled with the correct preamp.

If you are close to the transmitter "farm" at Cedar Hill then other antennas are possible, but many of the so-called "HDTV" antennas are designed for UHF and have terrible VHF performance. People sometimes try to use preamps to compensate for a poor antenna, and many of the indoor antennas have very heavy amplification (25db on some of them). There is no substitute for a good antenna. Amplifying zero signal still gives zero signal!!

^ Yes, and amplifying noise gives more noise.

There has historically been an almost religious battle between 720p and 1080i camps. So beware of anyone's views (including this one).

Naturally, 1280x720@59.94p (720p) has less static (still) resolution than 1920x1080@59.94i (1080i). But they both have the same number of what I call "instants of time": they both have an image transmitted for each 59.94th of a second. 720p has 59.94 720-line frames per second, while 1080i has 59.94 540-line fields per second. This means that motion has the same "fluidity" in both formats. However, when the image is in motion, the 1080i has half the vertical resolution. This is the same issue faced by NTSC TV, which also has 59.94 "instants of time" sent per second, but each only contains 243 lines of the image.

So from a purely theoretical basis, 720p is better for motion, while 1080i is better for stills. Also, since movies and most non-live shows are actually shot on film, 1080i can have higher resolution, since at least two fields are used for each film frame. However, since the two fields are shown sequentially, it's not exactly the same as if it were 1920x1080@23.976p (which is actually a legal ATSC format, but not used for practical reasons).

From theory to practice:

720p advocates point out that the progressive nature of 720p makes it more efficient to compress. Fields skip every other line, resulting in high frequency discontinuities in the vertical direction that must be handled by the compression algorithm. And each field is offset vertically from the ones before and after, so correlation between them is more difficult. Easier compression means a higher quality image for the same number of bits.

Also, 1080i content is often vertically filtered (even when the source is progressive film) to cut down on the flicker associated with interlacing. This effectively reduces the vertical resolution--to the neighborhood of 700 lines.

And many cameras in use today only have 1440 horizontal pixels, so the argument is that 1080i transmissions only actually contain about 1440x700 of content, meaning most of the resolution is lost, but you still get the interlacing artifacts.

When converting between the two (neither side wants to refer to converting to their format as "downconverting," so someone coined the term "crossconverting"), it is relatively simple to go from 720p to 1080i. You simply scale your 720p to 1080p, and then throw out half the lines of each frame. However, going from 1080i to 720p requires deinterlacing. This is a difficult process, and although there are a number of techniques, none are perfect.

BTW, neither the 720p nor the 1080i camp believes that their format is preferable when converted from the other. You get the worst of both worlds: the lower resolution and interlacing artifacts. Hence the frustration with Belo-owned WFAA, which takes the 720p feed from ABC and converts it to 1080i. And given that WFAA also insists on stealing bits for the stupid weather channel, coupled with the less efficient compression of interlaced content, this means that WFAA's picture is inferior to ABC stations elsewhere around the country.

My particular RPTV is 1080i. The CRTs only have about 700 lines of resolution. So I also don't see much difference between 1080i and 720p content. But when I've looked at 720p displays, I find that the deinterlacing of 1080i content is lacking on most.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. YMMV. IMHO. Etc.

XesdeeniFor some time now I have been perplexed about the anomalies I've experienced in trying to convert my local Austin ABC affiliate's 1080i broadcasts (captured OTA with my myHD MDP-130) to 23.976fps XviDs. Often they are perfect (as with Boston Legal) where I need only IVTC them, but other times (such as Grey's Anatomy) a simple IVTC doesn't work very well as there are extra fields/frames and sometimes blends.

I guess Belo's conversion methods are not perfect? But they must be done "on-the-fly" ie. the affiliate gets the signal via satellite from ABC and then runs it thru a transcoder of some kind? Would love to know what their (faulty) magic might be.

In any case I ran across your post and thank you for the most lucid explanation of these issues I've seen anywhere!!! Thanks!

Nice! I've been reading great things about the CM4228 antenna. BTW, how far are you from the source as far as what antennaweb.org says?

I'm about 29 miles from the transmitters according to antennaweb.org.

I'm about 29 miles from the transmitters according to antennaweb.org.
That's a very reasonable distance. After I move, I'll be about 32-34 mi. away from the transmitters. While I'm confident the CM4228 antenna will work for HD signal from what people like you and texasbrit have said, I don't know if it'll work if I install it in my attic. Heck, I don't know if it will even fit in the attic. :confused:

That's a very reasonable distance. After I move, I'll be about 32-34 mi. away from the transmitters. While I'm confident the CM4228 antenna will work for HD signal from what people like you and texasbrit have said, I don't know if it'll work if I install it in my attic. Heck, I don't know if it will even fit in the attic. :confused:

I'm at 40+ miles from Cedar Hill and have my CM4228 in the attic, and it works fine. Of course, as they say, "your mileage may differ". It's worth a try.....

I'm at 40+ miles from Cedar Hill and have my CM4228 in the attic, and it works fine. Of course, as they say, "your mileage may differ". It's worth a try.....
Yeah, YMMV actually. I'm sure there are many factors involved other than distance. Luckily, I don't have big hills that would be in the way.

I thought about the following for a minute. Has anyone mounted a regular rooftop HD antenna such as the CM4228, not in the attic, but right by their TV, kind of like the old-days rabbit-ear antennas? Sure, it would be ugly and causes wives all across America to file for divorce from their husbands who'd do this. But I'm just wondering theoretically if signal performance would be hurt by not having the antenna mounted high, such as on a roof or attic. Heck, one can even point it out the window, if it happens to be in the same direction as the transmitters.

Has anyone mounted a regular rooftop HD antenna such as the CM4228, not in the attic, but right by their TV, kind of like the old-days rabbit-ear antennas?Just a data point for you--I am 40+ miles from my Austin xmitters and use a little Philips "Silver Sensor" (set-top antenna) aimed thru a 6" wall in the direction of the towers and get very strong reception. Sits on a subwoofer.

I wouldn't sweat it--put the antenna in your attic and it should work fine, unless you have a metal roof or a water tower in the way or something...

Just a data point for you--I am 40+ miles from my Austin xmitters and use a little Philips "Silver Sensor" (set-top antenna) aimed thru a 6" wall in the direction of the towers and get very strong reception. Sits on a subwoofer.

I wouldn't sweat it--put the antenna in your attic and it should work fine, unless you have a metal roof or a water tower in the way or something...
Thanks for the data on your experience. Ideally I'd put it in the attic. I just don't know if I have enough room for it, though, since it (Channel Master 4228) has an area of about 4 sq. ft., I believe.

The CM4228 is about 40 inches high and 36 inches wide, and only about 6 in deep. The Antennas Direct 91XG which is probably the only other UHF antenna with good VHF-hi performance is about 22in high and wide but about 8.5ft long.
I have heard of people mounting the CM4221 inside a room but not the CM4228. The CM4221 is basically half a CM4228; good UHF antenna but terrible at VHF.

The CM4228 is about 40 inches high and 36 inches wide, and only about 6 in deep. The Antennas Direct 91XG which is probably the only other UHF antenna with good VHF-hi performance is about 22in high and wide but about 8.5ft long.
I have heard of people mounting the CM4221 inside a room but not the CM4228. The CM4221 is basically half a CM4228; good UHF antenna but terrible at VHF.
The next time I'm in the attic of the house I'm in process of buying, I'll bring a measuring tape with me and see if there'd be enough clearance to fit an antenna the size of the CM 4228. Thanks for the measurements.

In the interest of helping other folks in east Allen, TX, here's my HDTV antenna information. For bulk RG-6 and high-quality compression fittings, I visited Altex in Carrollton. I made all cables myself so that I could control the length and connector quality.

Location: Allen, TX at Exchange Pkwy and Angel Pkwy (Lost Creek Ranch)
Distance to Cedar Hill: approx 45 miles
Antenna Mount: in attic above garage, pointed south-southwest (you need a helper on a phone with you to watch the signal meter on TV while you adjust the tilt/rotation of the antenna in the attic)

Equipment:
+ Channelmaster 3018 UHF/VHF (bought at Fry's)
+ 1ft RG-6 to an FM Trap (bought at Altex for $4) installed in attic with antenna
+ 20ft RG-6 to attic-side of gameroom wall (brought into gameroom at coax wall jack)
+ 1ft RG-6 to Channelmaster 3044 4-way distribution amplifier
++first output from amp: 3ft RG-6 to HD DirecTV Tivo HR10-250
++second output from amp: 3ft RG-6 to HDTV tuner (for PiP purposes)

HR10-250 modification (this made a 1% improvement in my case):
Removed cover and replaced existing RG-59 cables that lead to internal tuners with new RG-6 cable - used F-type compression fittings on one end (to tuner) and RCA phono-type compression fittings on other end (to splitter)
See the Tivo Community forum for a thread about "fixing" your HR10-250 to improve OTA signal strength.

Signal strength as measured by the HD Tivo HR10-250:
ABC (vhf 9): 90 of 100
Fox: 85
CBS: 90
NBC: 76-78

The FM trap and higher quality cabling improved the ABC VHF signal by 20 points. The UHF stations didn't improve that much (or at all) after replacing the cheaper cabling with new stuff.

What did you guys think of the PQ in the Cowboys game last night? It seemed a little dim to me, but it could have been TWC or it is possible that the lamp on my DLP is starting to go. I wanted to check OTA (or straight QAM without a cable box) to compare, but I had some issues with that. Anyway, I thought it would be worth asking what other folks thought...

Thanks,
Randy

I viewed it over the D* MPEG4 stream, but didn't notice anything unusual. MPEG4 on D* is not quite as good as OTA but it is consistently acceptible to me. I recorded it to HD DVR and will take a closer look this evening.

Hi,

Man what a lot of reading and choices for one decision. . . .

I am confused why the CM 4228 would be a better choice in the DFW area over the CM 3020. From the CM chart, the 3020 should do better with ABC, is that not the case? Am I better off with the 4228 and a VHF antenna? I assume I will also need the CM7777, since I am on the East side of Denton right on 380. According to the antenna selector, I am 47 miles from the broadcast area.

I am also curious what antennas are decent that I can buy locally, in case they do not work they would be easier to return.

I am hoping I can get this working with an antenna in the attic. If not, I am going to have to get something that "looks" halfway decent, or it is not going to happen. Maybe the Winegard S2000?

I am looking to add OTA to my HTPC so I can get HD on my projector. At this point, I am still up in the air on the HTPC card. Looking at the ATI HDTV Wonder (cheaper), or the FusionHDTV5 Lite.


Any advice on the setup would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks!
Brian

The CM4228 is a much better UHF antenna than the CM3020, if you are to have a chance of attic installation you will need the extra gain.

This is an interesting site, http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html The 3020 performance lies somewhere between the 3018 and the 4242, so we are talking about 4 to 5db additional gain for the CM4228. In general the Crossfire series of antennas which includes the 3020 seem to be considered fairly mediocre performers.

The 3020 is in theory of course a better performer at VHF-hi (for WFAA) than the CM4228 although the CM4228 is surprisingly good. Yes, you should expect to need a CM7777. And you may find an attic installation is not possible. But I am just over 40 miles from Cedar Hill and get all the DFW stations including WFAA at good signal level with a CM4228 installed in my attic..

At your range you can probably forget the Winegard S2000, or any of the "unusual" designs of antennas.

If you do a search you will find other people in Denton have posted their experiences, which will give you an idea of what you can expect.

A couple of other things.

You don't say but am I correct in assuming you are only interested in the digital stations?

I don't think you have posted your antennaweb results yet. Go to antennaweb.org and input your address, not just your zip. Cut and paste the results into your next post. Also there is an "options" selection on the page where you input your address, repeat the antennaweb request with your height set to 100ft and post that output also. Antennaweb is very conservative when it comes to digital stations and increasing your height by 100ft gives us an idea of those stations you might be able to receive.

Seeing both sets of results we can make a better prediction of your results with the different antennas.

Sorry, I guess I shoudl have posted the results. I ran the search earlier to find I was 47 miles away (worst case). Looks like the stations I am mainly interested in are all in a narrow path:

* blue - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 169° 44.0 9
* blue - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 168° 44.1 41
* blue - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 168° 44.1 40
* blue - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 167° 44.6 19
* blue - uhf KERA-DT 13.1 PBS DALLAS TX 167° 44.6 14
* blue - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 169° 44.0 35
* violet - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 CW DALLAS TX 168° 47.0 32
* violet - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 i ARLINGTON TX 168° 43.7 42
* violet - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 168° 43.8 51
* violet - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 168° 43.7 24
* violet - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 168° 47.0 43
* violet - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 168° 47.0 18

I input for 100 ft, and the main stations I am interested in became YELLOW and GREEN:

* yellow - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 168° 47.0 43
* yellow - uhf KERA-DT 13.1 PBS DALLAS TX 167° 44.6 14
* yellow - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 168° 44.1 40
* yellow - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 167° 44.6 19
* yellow - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 168° 47.0 18
* yellow - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 168° 44.1 41
* yellow - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 i ARLINGTON TX 168° 43.7 42
* yellow - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 168° 43.7 24
* yellow - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 168° 43.8 51
* yellow - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 CW DALLAS TX 168° 47.0 32
* yellow - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 169° 44.0 35
* green - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 168° 47.0 48
* green - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 169° 44.0 9
* blue - uhf KDFI-DT 27.1 MNT DALLAS TX 168° 47.0 36
* violet - uhf KDTX-DT 58.1 TBN DALLAS TX 168° 43.7 45


I really do not watch much TV, but it would be nice to watch sports on the big screen. . .

I am mainly interested in the over the air digital. I have cable TV for analog.

Thanks!
Brian

OK, although antenna selection and performance sometimes seems more of a black art than a science, we can apply a few scientific principles here. First, the antennaweb color code recommendations are based upon antennas in each color code having certain minimum gain numbers. So a suitable antenna for "yellow" will have a gain at VHF-hi of at least -15db, and at UHF of at least -10db. To perform in the "violet" zone an antenna needs to provide at least +6db at VHF-hi and at least +8 db at UHF. So if we look at the antennaweb results: if the first set of results holds true then with the CM4228 mounted outdoors you should find you can receive all the blue and violet channels except that you may not be able to get 8.1 reliably, and this might get worse when 8.1 moves back from 9 to 8 when analog goes away - the CM4228 possibly has worse performance on channel 8 than it does on channel 9.

The 3020 would probably get all the blue stations but might struggle with the violet ones. If you put the antenna in the attic, you will lose somewhere between 3 and 5db (probably, no-one knows until you try it) and this could certainly affect the 3020 on UHF, the CM4228 MIGHT be OK, but I think 8.1 with the CM4228 would be a non-starter.

You can guess what would happen if the actual performance were similar to the "100ft" results. Both antennas would perform OK, again you might get better performance on UHF with the CM4228 but 8.1 would be OK for both antennas.

So what's the reality? No-one can tell, your reception conditions could be better or worse than antennaweb and even different from your next-door neighbor.

Decisions, decisions....my suggestion would be if you can get the 3020 locally from somewhere with a good return policy then you should try it, not because it's necessarily the best solution but because it won't cost you anything if you have to return it. The Winegard HD series of antennas would be a better choice if you want a VHF/UHF combo but you probably can't get one locally. And the 3020 might work well for you...

I found this comparison of some of the best fringe VHF/UHF combo antennas:

average dbd gain
cm3020
3.6 low vhf
8.6 high vhf
9.5 uhf

cm3671
5.6
10.9
10.0

hd7084p
7.0
11.15
12.2

hd8200p
7.0
11.5
13.3

If the 3020 does not work for you, then you are looking at getting a better VHF/UHF combo, or the CM4228 or the Antennas Direct 91XG for UHF, possibly coupled with a VHF hi-band antenna to get WFAA.

And yes, you will need a good preamp, the CM7777 is often recommended. Apart from being a very good preamp, it also allows separate inputs from a VHF and a UHF antenna if you have them. Don't just go and buy a preamp from somewher like Radio Shack, for lomg-range reception you need a good low-noise preamp like the 7777. Winegard has some good preamps also (the AP8275 comes to mind); they do not have the separate VHF and UHF inputs but are still great for VHF/UHF combo antennas.

Hop this helps - as I said this is more like an art than a science so the best thing to do is to try something. If it fails at least it will give you an indication of where to go next.

So I think I will start with the CM4228 and the CM7777 preamp. If 8.1 is a problem, I can add a VHF antenna. . .

thanks!
Brian

You probably won't find the CM4228 locally, although Fry's do have them in stock from time to time, I know the one in Plano had one last time I was in there. You could give them a call. Online you should look at solidsignal.com, warren electronics, crutchfield. They should all stock the CM7777 as well. Just look for the best deal including shipping.

If you get all the UHF stations but not 8.1 then there are VHF hi-band antennas available, or if your reception is marginal - if you can get WFAA but not consistently - maybe you can put the CM4228 outside!!

Hey guys,

I live in Frisco, TX (Fisher and El Dorado) and a couple of HD channels have not been showing up recently.

8-1
11-1

Both worked fine until a couple of months ago.

Now I just get a "searching for signal" when I tune to them.

Both receiver are HR10s. I have a large OTA antenna on the roof. I forgot the name of it but it was expensive and looks like another satellite dish.

Any idea what I can do to receive these channels again?

It is driving me crazy.

Anyone else in Frisco having issues with these two channels?

Hey guys,

I live in Frisco, TX (Fisher and El Dorado) and a couple of HD channels have not been showing up recently.

8-1
11-1

Both worked fine until a couple of months ago.

Now I just get a "searching for signal" when I tune to them.

Both receiver are HR10s. I have a large OTA antenna on the roof. I forgot the name of it but it was expensive and looks like another satellite dish.

Any idea what I can do to receive these channels again?

It is driving me crazy.

Anyone else in Frisco having issues with these two channels?

Rescan your digital channels agian and see if they show up. If that fails to work, you may have to tinker with the antenna a bit. Possible the wind moved the antenna from it's original possition. It has happened to me before.

Does the CM4228 come folded up in any way?

I'm looking to do an attic install but only have a manhole type access to the attic and based on the dimensions I've seen I doubt the CM4228 will fit through the opening unless it folds up in some way.

Thanks,
FTWMike

I have heard that you can carefully separate the two halves - maybe someone who has done that can comment.....

I kept seeing "Cedar Hill" where the broadcast sources are located. I thought it woudl be from somewhere in downtown Dallas. So I did a quick search on Yahoo Maps for that city and was surprised to see it is located quite a bit southwest of Dallas (http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=&csz=cedar+hill%2C+tx&country=us&new=1&name=&qty=), past Duncanville. I wonder why the antennas are located way down there when most of the population in the Dallas area lives north of Dallas and not south of it. :confused:

I kept seeing "Cedar Hill" where the broadcast sources are located. I thought it woudl be from somewhere in downtown Dallas. So I did a quick search on Yahoo Maps for that city and was surprised to see it is located quite a bit southwest of Dallas (http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=&csz=cedar+hill%2C+tx&country=us&new=1&name=&qty=), past Duncanville. I wonder why the antennas are located way down there when most of the population in the Dallas area lives north of Dallas and not south of it. :confused:
Only one word for it - elevation.

Only one word for it - elevation.
That's true. I haven't been in that area yet and didn't consider it could be hilly down there. But the alternative would be to put the antennas on the tallest bldg. in Dallas like how it's done in NYC. That's what I would've assumed.

The CM4228 is a much better UHF antenna than the CM3020, if you are to have a chance of attic installation you will need the extra gain.

This is an interesting site, http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html The 3020 performance lies somewhere between the 3018 and the 4242, so we are talking about 4 to 5db additional gain for the CM4228. In general the Crossfire series of antennas which includes the 3020 seem to be considered fairly mediocre performers.

The 3020 is in theory of course a better performer at VHF-hi (for WFAA) than the CM4228 although the CM4228 is surprisingly good. Yes, you should expect to need a CM7777. And you may find an attic installation is not possible. But I am just over 40 miles from Cedar Hill and get all the DFW stations including WFAA at good signal level with a CM4228 installed in my attic..

At your range you can probably forget the Winegard S2000, or any of the "unusual" designs of antennas.

If you do a search you will find other people in Denton have posted their experiences, which will give you an idea of what you can expect.
That's a pretty handy link. For lower channels, it looks like "Winegard PR-8800 8-Bay" is superior to the Channel Master 4228 (or any other antenna for that matter).

First, all those people north of Dallas didn't live there when Cedar Hill started sprouting broadcast towers. It was farm land.

To change the subject - can anyone think of a reason that channels 11.1 and 13.1 completely fail to come in for me? Antennaweb says that that tower is 5.3 miles away, on a 186° bearing. I receive channels 21/27/33 just fine, and they're on a 185° bearing, 7.8 miles away.

I live in Duncanville, less than 8 miles from any of the towers at Cedar Hill. I did notice that I've had to point my antenna (CM3016) about 45° off the bearing that antennaweb told me to use. Not sure why that might be, but it works for everything except those 2 channels. In fact, if I use the bearing that antennaweb gives me, I get no love.


seems to be popular to blow these in, so....

* yellow - uhf KERA-DT 13.1 PBS DALLAS TX 186° 5.3 14
* yellow - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 186° 5.3 19
* yellow - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 185° 7.8 18
* yellow - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 197° 5.1 41
* yellow - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 CW DALLAS TX 185° 7.8 32
* yellow - uhf KDFI-DT 27.1 MNT DALLAS TX 185° 7.8 36
* yellow - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 185° 7.8 43
* green - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 202° 5.3 9
* red - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 202° 5.3 35

To change the subject - can anyone think of a reason that channels 11.1 and 13.1 completely fail to come in for me? Antennaweb says that that tower is 5.3 miles away, on a 186° bearing. I receive channels 21/27/33 just fine, and they're on a 185° bearing, 7.8 miles away.

I live in Duncanville, less than 8 miles from any of the towers at Cedar Hill. I did notice that I've had to point my antenna (CM3016) about 45° off the bearing that antennaweb told me to use. Not sure why that might be, but it works for everything except those 2 channels.

FYI, I live in south Arlington and can pick up everything from the Cedar Hill towers with a ratty old set of rabbit ears, although I have to twist the UHF loop once in a while. In contrast, I had an external antenna for analog that gave me fits when I tried to use it with HDTV. Someone here explained why rabbit ears will work when an outdoor antenna wouldn't, but I forget why. Anyway, if you haven't tried some rabbit ears, give them a try...

First, all those people north of Dallas didn't live there when Cedar Hill started sprouting broadcast towers. It was farm land.

To change the subject - can anyone think of a reason that channels 11.1 and 13.1 completely fail to come in for me? Antennaweb says that that tower is 5.3 miles away, on a 186° bearing. I receive channels 21/27/33 just fine, and they're on a 185° bearing, 7.8 miles away.

I live in Duncanville, less than 8 miles from any of the towers at Cedar Hill. I did notice that I've had to point my antenna (CM3016) about 45° off the bearing that antennaweb told me to use. Not sure why that might be, but it works for everything except those 2 channels. In fact, if I use the bearing that antennaweb gives me, I get no love.


Looks like you are either getting very severe multipath, or signal overload. Are you using a preamp?

My guess is that antennaweb is giving you a general bearing to where the antennas are located. Being that you are so close to the towers, there is one thing to remember, not all channels are physically located on the same tower. There are several towers out there. Try moving your antenna and see what I mean.

For a better explanation, I recommend you post your concern here: http://dhtg.napurano.com/

One of the tv engineers that monitor that site will probably reply with the answer to your reception problems.

FYI, I live in south Arlington and can pick up everything from the Cedar Hill towers with a ratty old set of rabbit ears, although I have to twist the UHF loop once in a while. In contrast, I had an external antenna for analog that gave me fits when I tried to use it with HDTV. Someone here explained why rabbit ears will work when an outdoor antenna wouldn't, but I forget why. Anyway, if you haven't tried some rabbit ears, give them a try...

Most HDTV channels are UHF, except Channel 8, which is VHF. "Rabbit ear" antennas are for VHF while "loop" antennas are for UHF. Your external antenna is probably VHF only. For an external antenna to work, with HDTV it has to be a combination antenna with elements for both VHF and UHF signals.

RF

texasbrit or anyone else who has the CM4228, I have a silly question to ask. How good does this antenna pick up analog broadcast signals? The reason I'm asking is b/c I won't get an HDTV until the spring timeframe (most likely). But I will be moving to the house with my 20" CRT (non-HD)TV in less than a month. So that means I need to survive for 3-4 months on standard definition. If the antenna works well for those analog channels (FOX, CBS, NBC, ABC), then that will suffice. If not, then I will have no choice but to get E* or D*. TIA.

Beowulf: The CM4228 will not pick up VHF-lo channels very well, it is basically for UHF and VHF-hi. So it's not a good analog antenna for DFW, channels 4 and 5 won't come in at all unless you are right on top of the transmitters.
If you need analog, you will need a good combination VHF/UHF antenna. I have heard good reports on the Winegard HD7082/7084 but have no personal experience of these.
D* will give you approx 16 local channels in Standard Definition, and 5 (fox, CBS, NBC, ABC and channel 27) in High Definition (using the new 5-lnb dish and the H20 receiver, or HR20 DVR). Quality on the HD channels varies from about the same as OTA to slightly worse, occasionally much worse. Most of the problems seem to be related to the MPEG-4 encoders, which seem to be improving as D* and the encoder supplier get more experience and operating time.

By the way, the H20 receiver is excellent for OTA, and we expect the HR20 to be as good, when the OTA tuners are activated (by the end of the year, hopefully) , so if you go that route you will have a very good OTA box. The HD locals are free when you subscribe to the SD locals.

Beowulf: The CM4228 will not pick up VHF-lo channels very well, it is basically for UHF and VHF-hi. So it's not a good analog antenna for DFW, channels 4 and 5 won't come in at all unless you are right on top of the transmitters.
If you need analog, you will need a good combination VHF/UHF antenna. I have heard good reports on the Winegard HD7082/7084 but have no personal experience of these.
D* will give you approx 16 local channels in Standard Definition, and 5 (fox, CBS, NBC, ABC and channel 27) in High Definition (using the new 5-lnb dish and the H20 receiver, or HR20 DVR). Quality on the HD channels varies from about the same as OTA to slightly worse, occasionally much worse. Most of the problems seem to be related to the MPEG-4 encoders, which seem to be improving as D* and the encoder supplier get more experience and operating time.

By the way, the H20 receiver is excellent for OTA, and we expect the HR20 to be as good, when the OTA tuners are activated (by the end of the year, hopefully) , so if you go that route you will have a very good OTA box. The HD locals are free when you subscribe to the SD locals.

Thanks, texasbrit. I've had bad experience with rabbit-ear antennas in the past to get analog. I realize that the "industrial-strength" roof-mounted VHF antennas are much better, but I think I'll just get the cheapest D*/E* plan until I get an HDTV. At that time, then I can cancel D*/E* and get an HD UHF antenna like the CM 4228. Or keep both in tandem so that the older TVs are still usable.

FTW Mike,

Yes the CM4228 can be taken apart. I emailed the support engineers and they said it can be reduced down to 29 inches wide. Most attic access holes will allow this to fit if you angle it across the hole.

Hope that helps.

I am currently using a radioshack U-75R uhf antenna combined with a winegard gs-2200. Both are in my attic and provide great digital reception. The only drop outs are on 8.1(ABC) when a jet flies right over my house. Otherwise all is good.

Later,
Anthandle

Anyone notice lipsync issues on 33.1 Sunday night? I had some major ones on a program I recorder to my DirecTV HD Tivo unit, so I am curious if anyone else experienced this.

Thanks,

Kemical

I've given up on HDTV for the short-term. After I move in a few weeks, I'll order D* or E* (whoever is cheaper and if both are equal, then E*) for 6-12 months (whatever the promo/contract is). Then I'll go the free OTA route. :cool:

Now I hope whichever satellite company installs the dish does a good job so that I can do an easy swap with a CM 4228 or similar antenna when I'm ready for OTA (assuming I don't do the attic installation).

Quick question: can one negotiate with D* or E*? I've never done that with a utility or service company before, such as cable, phone, Internet, etc. But if others have succeeded, I just might give it a try and see if I can save another $5/mo. or get a free/cheap upgrade to more channels.

I've given up on HDTV for the short-term. After I move in a few weeks, I'll order D* or E* (whoever is cheaper and if both are equal, then E*) for 6-12 months (whatever the promo/contract is). Then I'll go the free OTA route. :cool:

Now I hope whichever satellite company installs the dish does a good job so that I can do an easy swap with a CM 4228 or similar antenna when I'm ready for OTA (assuming I don't do the attic installation).

Quick question: can one negotiate with D* or E*? I've never done that with a utility or service company before, such as cable, phone, Internet, etc. But if others have succeeded, I just might give it a try and see if I can save another $5/mo. or get a free/cheap upgrade to more channels.

I'd recommend one of these guys:

http://www.smarthome.com/7798s.html

I bought and used one to mount my Lacrosse antenna, and it worked out perfectly. It reduces the chance that you'll get leaks in your roof, since it screws in UNDER the shingles, instead of directly on top of them. It also allows you to remove it, without having to plug any holes, unless you want to.

If you want to use the same mount for your antenna, make sure that they install your dish in a location that lets you face your antenna in the direction of the towers. The dish that was installed on my house before we bought it was installed at the lowest point on the roof, and the roof was in the way of the direction of the towers, so I had to remote it, and mount my antenna elsewhere.

I'd recommend one of these guys:

http://www.smarthome.com/7798s.html

I bought and used one to mount my Lacrosse antenna, and it worked out perfectly. It reduces the chance that you'll get leaks in your roof, since it screws in UNDER the shingles, instead of directly on top of them. It also allows you to remove it, without having to plug any holes, unless you want to.

If you want to use the same mount for your antenna, make sure that they install your dish in a location that lets you face your antenna in the direction of the towers. The dish that was installed on my house before we bought it was installed at the lowest point on the roof, and the roof was in the way of the direction of the towers, so I had to remote it, and mount my antenna elsewhere.
Thanks for the recommendation for the mounting hardware (stand).

You're right that the 2 antennas (antennae?) would probably have to face in different directions. In the northern hemisphere, you generally want the dish to face south to get the best access to the satellites. But for my HD sources, I'd have to point it roughly east southeast. When the D*/E* installer comes, I'll ask him if he can mount in a way that I can reuse that location for another antenna (facing ESE as mentioned).

Yeah, as long as your field of view is not obstructed from the mast, you should be fine. In my case, the Dish had a good view going South, but the roof was in the way when needing to face slightly SE. If they had just mounted it on the top of the roof line, it would have worked perfectly, but they usually go for the easiest install, which you may be stuck with.

I have some new info that hopefully will pan out. On Tuesday, I was checking on the Charter web site, and it began to list HD services in the "build your own bundle" area of the ordering section. (Unfortunately, it doesn't list what channels we'll eventually get, or the DVR hardware platform. And the web 'shopping cart' had some quirk that appeared to put the DVR in twice when adding the HDTV tier.)

Just to make sure what was going on, I called the sales number (888-GETCHARTER) and spoke to a sales rep. He told me something unusual: HD service was not yet available in my specific location - - but that it was (supposedly) available in other parts of the Denton market. That didn't sound right, as if HD service was available anywhere in town, Charter would probably be running ads and sending out flyers, etc.

So I stopped by the local office. The customer service rep at the front desk confirmed my suspicions: HDTV is not yet available anywhere in Denton. However, he said that it is currently in beta testing. I asked some questions about this, and he said that there were a small number of homes in town who were testing the HD service and providing feedback to the Charter engineers. Based on their feedback, etc., they would then proceed with the full-scale rollout.

I then asked the big question: is there a date/timeframe for this? The answer was no. I left and went home to run yet another QAM channel scan on my HD set. I've been doing this for about 14 months now, monitoring the setup/layout of the channel assignments on the network. The scan came back just as it had since last year - - no new channels, no changed channels.

Thinking this through, I can see three possibilities based on all of this information.

1) Charter is testing HD service, but is using a dedicated circuit that was set up exclusively to the area/neighborhood where the beta testers reside. This would allow the engineers to experiment with any amount of changes/modifications without any fear of mucking up the rest of the network. (This would explain why I can't see any of the new HD channels from the tests.)

2) Charter is testing HD service, and is doing so on parts of the network that have been upgraded. Several months ago, I got a strange mailer from Charter notifying residents that technicians would be working in the area on "upgrades" to the cable system. Not being a cable engineer, I don't know if it's possible that part of town might have access to a feed that the rest of us who haven't been "upgraded" wouldn't see - - so folks in another part of town with HD sets might be able to do a channel scan and pick up the 'test' channels, if this were true.

3) Charter is not testing HD service, and the rep was either misinformed, confused or outright lying. Given my past experience with Charter, I'm not discounting this possibility.

Going with the hope that option #3 is not correct, those of us here in Denton that are stuck* with Charter just might be seeing HD service via cable sometime soon...maybe by the end of the year, or the first of 2007.

* -- For those new to this thread: the short version is that I can't go with satellite, and Verizon is not making any noise about apartment installs for FIOS here.

Yeah, as long as your field of view is not obstructed from the mast, you should be fine. In my case, the Dish had a good view going South, but the roof was in the way when needing to face slightly SE. If they had just mounted it on the top of the roof line, it would have worked perfectly, but they usually go for the easiest install, which you may be stuck with.
That's true. If the D*/E* installer mounts it high, then I shouldn't see any interference. But if he decides to mount it at the garage level (e.g. side of the house and not on top of the roof), then it might be too low for OTA HD.

What do antenna would you guys suggest? i care about the main locals, ABC CBS NBC PBS etc.

* yellow - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 185° 30.2 43
* yellow - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 187° 27.5 41
* yellow - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 187° 27.5 40
* yellow - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 185° 27.7 19
* yellow - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 i ARLINGTON TX 188° 27.2 42
* yellow - uhf KERA-DT 13.1 PBS DALLAS TX 186° 27.7 14
* yellow - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 CW DALLAS TX 185° 30.2 32
* green - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 188° 27.2 51
* green - uhf KMPX-DT 30.1 DAY DECATUR TX 200° 7.8 30
* green - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 188° 27.2 24
* green - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 185° 30.2 18
* red - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 185° 30.2 48
* red - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 189° 27.6 9
* red - uhf KDFI-DT 27.1 MNT DALLAS TX 185° 30.2 36
* red - uhf KLDT-DT 55.1 IND LAKE DALLAS TX 283° 7.1 54
* violet - uhf KDTX-DT 58.1 TBN DALLAS TX 188° 27.2 45

You could probably pick up a DB8 in your attic, or maybe just a DB4 outside, however, if you really want ABC, you may need a VHF and UHF antenna, or dual (one of each) antennas.

However, since you are only 9 miles from it, a UHF antenna that does good on the high VHF side, may be good enough to get you reception.

The CM4228 would be a better choice than the DB8 because it has much better performance on VHF-hi, for WFAA. Look at the comparisons of UHF antennas operating at VHF, at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

FYI, longhorns is at 27 to 30 miles from the transmitter farm at Cedar Hill not 9 miles (you simply misread the antennaweb output - I've done it before!).

Oops, yep, didn't catch that. Thought it was a bit odd that he was 40 from the others, but closer to ABC...

http://www.solidsignal.tv/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC4228&xzoom=Large-1#xview
That's the antenna you're talking about? is that even an antenna?!? and one other thing i just noticed...how come FOX isn't included in those stations i posted?

http://www.solidsignal.tv/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC4228&xzoom=Large-1#xview
That's the antenna you're talking about? is that even an antenna?!? and one other thing i just noticed...how come FOX isn't included in those stations i posted?

That looks to be it. The DB8 is also very similar. It's a common bowtie antenna.

Try going back into antenna web, and clicking on the map to point to your exact location, or just around it. I've found that just moving it (what appears to be a few feet), can change what channels it lists for you. Looks like it will be around 40 miles for you though.

http://www.solidsignal.tv/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC4228&xzoom=Large-1#xview
That's the antenna you're talking about? is that even an antenna?!? and one other thing i just noticed...how come FOX isn't included in those stations i posted?

Standard shipping fee is $27.95
Ouch, that is a steep shipping charge. :eek:

I think i got it, here's what i found by moving it a little more.....
C: 2, 2.1, 4, 4.1, 5, 5.1, 8, 8.1, 11, 11.1, 13, 13.1, 21, 21.1, 23, 23.1, 27, 27.1, 28, 33, 33.1, 39, 40.1, 49, 49.1, 52, 52.1, 57, 58, 58.1, 68, 68.1

Is this correct? EDIT nvm i did it wrong, still working on finding 4.1
EDIT AGAIN! lol sorry guys, NOW i have it, just had to move it a bit and got these digital channels coming up 2.1, 4.1, 5.1, 8.1, 11.1, 13.1, 21.1, 23.1, 27.1, 33.1, 40.1, 49.1, 52.1, 58.1, 68.1

And my next question, where does that antenna go, for some reason i just can't tell what it really is supposed to look like..

That looks to be it. The DB8 is also very similar. It's a common bowtie antenna.



The DB8 is similar but does not do well on VHF.
See the attachment for a picture of the CM4228 on a rotator.

The DB8 is similar but does not do well on VHF.
See the attachment for a picture of the CM4228 on a rotator.

Right, that's why I said it's similar.

He probably will not need it on a rotator though.

Basically, you just point the bowties towards the towers, somewhere around 188 degrees (just a slightly Eastern direction of directly South). You may have to fiddle with it a bit when you get it installed, to get the best reception. Usually a signal strength meter (using a TV tuner card in your computer, or the receiver on your TV), will help you determine where the best place is, but you also may have to adjust it for problems such as multipath or the like.

Dang guys, you've been a big help, this is a lot of good info. And thanks for the pic texasbrit, now i know what it looks like haha. Thanks again.

A friend who lives in Carrollton can confirm that you won't need the rotator -- he can get all of the major stations in HD just fine using an old attic antenna that is fixed in place. As I recall, the only one he doesn't get is KLDT, which is hardly filled with compelling programming, anyway. (As an aside, I don't know what his antenna model is, since it is something that has been in place for probably 15 years -- just some sort of standard all-channel suburban model).

Is a rotator something that can just move the antenna around? or what is it?

Hello!!

Just wanted to say thanks to those who helped me on this forum. Just thought I would drop back in and let everyone know how it ended up:

I am in Denton on the far North East side. Website says I am 48 miles from the broadcasting cluster.

I ended up buying a used CM4228 antenna and a Winegard AP-3700 preamp all for $40!!!
For the receiver, I am using a Fusion HDTV5 lite PCI card in my HTPC.

Started with the antenna in the attic. The deck board on my roof has foil back thermal insulation, but the front of my house faces directly toward the broadcast towers and the roof has a large gable over the garage. I placed the antenna about 4 ft. from the outside wall (it is brick on the outside) as high as I could in the attic above the garage.

The good part, to my surprise, I get all the stations, including Channel 8!!!!

Man am I HAPPY!!! My projector has never looked so good. Football on the 120" screen is GREAT!!!!

Thanks again,
Brian

Is a rotator something that can just move the antenna around? or what is it?

Yep, it rotates it in order to face it towards the station that you are wanting to tune. If you lived in an area where the transmitters were not all on a 'farm' then you would probably need one, or if you just wanted to receive channels in another area. In your case, if you wanted to get 55.1, you would probably need a rotator. When you selected that channel, the rotator would whip the antenna around to that angle.

The bad thing, is that if you were to have more than one tuner hooked up to the antenna, you could see where a problem would lie, if one tuner wanted a channel, and the other wanted another channel at another angle!

Oh wow, that's pretty cool, but i don't think i'd need that, i don't even know what 55.1 is, i just care about 4.1 5.1 8.1 11.1 and 13.1. i was posting in this thread a WHILE back, when i first signed up for the forum, but haven't in a while, good to take all this info in, thanks again guys.

Right, that's why I said it's similar.

He probably will not need it on a rotator though.

Basically, you just point the bowties towards the towers, somewhere around 188 degrees (just a slightly Eastern direction of directly South). You may have to fiddle with it a bit when you get it installed, to get the best reception. Usually a signal strength meter (using a TV tuner card in your computer, or the receiver on your TV), will help you determine where the best place is, but you also may have to adjust it for problems such as multipath or the like.
Actually, 188 degrees would mean to face the antenna slightly west of due south.

Actually, 188 degrees would mean to face the antenna slightly west of due south.

:D Sleepy, I guess...thanks for the correction.

:D Sleepy, I guess...thanks for the correction.
No prob. I've had many of those moments myself. :o

Hey everyone. I'm moving to Coppell (Belt Line and MacArthur) from Keller, and I was wondering what reception was like in that area.

I bought my tv over a year ago and haven't been able to watch hdtv on it once. Directtv wanted like $400 to set it up and OTA signals were non-existent. I happened to get 1 channel, briefly, long ago OTA, but it was some cartoon and I couldn't tell how good it really looks. It came through in dolby digital and the lines were really crisp and sharp, but that's all I got out of it. :(

I'll be living in an apartment and I'm going to get a new antenna, as I returned my other when I wasn't going to be using it.

Anyone have some recommendations? I was looking at an antenna at radio shack. Simple rabbit ears for $10, as I've heard that's all you need.

no offense but maybe the reason you didn't receive any signal was your antenna. Sometimes you can use rabbit ears but sometimes it will not work. If you will be in an apartment you will be limited as to what you can use and if you are not facing the right direction, you will be SOL regardless of the antenna. I personally am using a Terk 55 and it works great for me. You might give it a try if you are facing the right direction. Does the apartment have cable? If so you might be able to use a cable HD box and pick up HDTV that way. Check with them.

no offense but maybe the reason you didn't receive any signal was your antenna. Sometimes you can use rabbit ears but sometimes it will not work. If you will be in an apartment you will be limited as to what you can use and if you are not facing the right direction, you will be SOL regardless of the antenna. I personally am using a Terk 55 and it works great for me. You might give it a try if you are facing the right direction. Does the apartment have cable? If so you might be able to use a cable HD box and pick up HDTV that way. Check with them.

It could've been the antenna, I'll never know. I'm getting HD hooked up through my cable company, but they don't offer local stations in HD, as far as I've heard. I'll ask them. As long as I can get local in HD, I'll be happy. The other stations aren't that important.

It could've been the antenna, I'll never know. I'm getting HD hooked up through my cable company, but they don't offer local stations in HD, as far as I've heard. I'll ask them. As long as I can get local in HD, I'll be happy. The other stations aren't that important.
Go to www.antennaweb.org and tell us what the results are for your new address.

It could've been the antenna, I'll never know. I'm getting HD hooked up through my cable company, but they don't offer local stations in HD, as far as I've heard. I'll ask them. As long as I can get local in HD, I'll be happy. The other stations aren't that important.


Who is your cable company? Comcast, Timewarner and Verizon all offer local HD channels. Even the "Mom and Pop" cable company up here in Lillte Elm offers local HD channels. I definitely would check. As a side note, DirecTV and Dish both offer their HD receivers for free now for new customers and both offer the Dallas area local major channels accross their system so an OTA wouldn't be necessary. And yes, you can typically get them in an apartment, just ask the landlord and they will give you the guidlines.
Hope that helps,

Kemical

I am still working on my HD/digital setup and am wondering how many stations you guys are recieving OTA? I have a better VHF antenna coming and right now I am getting 36 channels on my last scan. Does that seem right for the McKinney area? OR are you guys getting more than that?

The VHF antenna is to get ABC better and to cover the channels that switch to VHF when they all go digital.

Thanks for the info.

I am still working on my HD/digital setup and am wondering how many stations you guys are recieving OTA? I have a better VHF antenna coming and right now I am getting 36 channels on my last scan. Does that seem right for the McKinney area? OR are you guys getting more than that?

The VHF antenna is to get ABC better and to cover the channels that switch to VHF when they all go digital.

Thanks for the info.

I haven't done a count on the digital stations, although it was a lot, however I have found that only 6 actually broadcast in HD, ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS and WB. The rest while broadcasting on the digital stream do not have HD programming. If this has changed please let me know.

Thanks,

Kemical

HDNet supposedly available on Time Warner..No word on HDNet Movies.

UHD added this morning

UHD added this morning

That's good news, this and HDNet...thanks!

Randy

Is anyone else having problems on this channel with the sound dropping out for 5 seconds or so? This started for me about a week or two ago. I have no problems with any other OTA channels that I receive from my HR10-250 receiver. The video never stops or freezes. I just lose sound.

Anybody getting guide data or guide channel identifier for HDNet? UHD is fine, but HDNet isn't.

same here in Garland. Nothing on the guide but a line for it(HDnet)

Is anyone else having problems on this channel with the sound dropping out for 5 seconds or so? This started for me about a week or two ago. I have no problems with any other OTA channels that I receive from my HR10-250 receiver. The video never stops or freezes. I just lose sound.

Yes, at least on my Sunday recorded programs. I haven't watched anyhting on there since, so I am not sure if it is continuing to do it.

Kemical

I have a data in my guide for HDNet in Frisco.

Shame the MLS Season just ended...

FOX-4.1 does have an issue with audio dorpouts. The missing sound does not lie within your set.
JStigler

Is anyone else having problems on this channel with the sound dropping out for 5 seconds or so? This started for me about a week or two ago. I have no problems with any other OTA channels that I receive from my HR10-250 receiver. The video never stops or freezes. I just lose sound.

I sent an email to the station about the audio dropout problem, but received no response. It was very annoying trying to watch "House" and missing critical dialogue during the entire show. I hope they get it fixed before the NFL games on Sunday.

...I hope they get it fixed before the NFL games on Sunday.

Don't count on it. This seems to be an ongoing issue for KDFW.

HD Channel 652 (ABC) on Time Warner Cable has been freezing up and sound interrupted on both of my HD cable boxes so I assume it is not something with the box. Is anyone else having this problem? I called TWC about it but they didn't have any idea what was causing it but said they would send someone out on 11/21. It is not happening on any other channel. I am just praying this will not happen to the CBS HD station on Sunday when the Cowboys play the Colts.

I sent an email to the station about the audio dropout problem, but received no response. It was very annoying trying to watch "House" and missing critical dialogue during the entire show. I hope they get it fixed before the NFL games on Sunday.

Thank goodness for NFL Sunday Ticket in HD. They don't black out any of the games, including the Cowboys. They show it on channel 72X as well as Fox.

Granbury, TX (~60 miles west of Dallas)

Charter Cable:
all QAM unencrypted and encrypted sent over cable. They support CableCARD, but it isn't working on my TV yet. It still says "Updating Channel List."

OTA:
all local channels are broadcast and I am able to pick them up... although they tend to drop out and the signal strength is below halfway.

Is anyone else having problems on this channel with the sound dropping out for 5 seconds or so? This started for me about a week or two ago. I have no problems with any other OTA channels that I receive from my HR10-250 receiver. The video never stops or freezes. I just lose sound.


This problem is due to the software upgrade to the HR10-250. You should now have version 6.3a, which allows you to use "Folders" in your now playing list. For some reason it is affecting OTA FOX broadcasts from coast to coast. There is apparently a "fix" in the works. It is not a problem with the local Fox broadcast.

DTV's fix right now is to turn off your DD surround..............ummm, NO!!

Anyone else with no sound on KDAFDT (CW)? I get only sound on some commercials, but none of the 1080i show has sound.

I have a question about Time Warner cable I hope someone can answer....

I want to get the unencrypted QAM channels. Can I get them with the Basic package, or do I need to get Expanded Basic. Or do I need to get both (Standard Cable Package). I ask because I'm only interested in HD channels, and I want to pay as little as possible.

Thanks!

The digital signals should be on the coax no matter what the package.
JStigler

Thanks JStigler, I'll give the Basic package a shot.

Does anybody know what's going on with with the audio on KTXA-21 OTA HDTV? At least 1/2 of the time when tune in, it sounds like the sound is being sampled at AM radio quality. Terribly annoying...

Anyone have any information on when any of the local Dallas stations are going to start broadcasting their local news in HDTV? I see information where stations all aroung the country are starting local news in HD.

I can't pick up fox 4.1 for some reason. I am in East Dallas, and I am using an existing UHF/VHF (?) antenna that was on top of my house when I bought it.

I pick up all the other local channels like 2.1, 5.1, 8.1, 11.1, 13.1 etc.

The weird thing is that I get the analog non-HD Fox 4 channel, but not even a hint of 4.1.

I saw on the web that someone said you can get fox at 35.1, but I don't get that either.

Anyone know what might be going on?

antennaweb says I should be picking up 4.1.

I can't pick up fox 4.1 for some reason. I am in East Dallas, and I am using an existing UHF/VHF (?) antenna that was on top of my house when I bought it.

I pick up all the other local channels like 2.1, 5.1, 8.1, 11.1, 13.1 etc.

The weird thing is that I get the analog non-HD Fox 4 channel, but not even a hint of 4.1.

I saw on the web that someone said you can get fox at 35.1, but I don't get that either.

Anyone know what might be going on?

antennaweb says I should be picking up 4.1.

First thing I'd do is a rescan off all channels. It's happened to me before.
If that fails, then it's time to get up on the roof and re-orient the
antenna. One of the two should work.
Hugh

I've just received my Pannasonic TH-42PX60U today and am setting it up to try and receive HD channels OTA. I live in the Lakewood area of Dallas and am currently limited to an indoor antenna. We are selling the house and moving into a loft downtown, so I don't want to upgrade through DirecTV because I may not be able to get that when we move (may have to get cable). Likewise, I don't want to go to the trouble of putting up an outside antenna or one in the attic because we may not be here long and I don't want to go to all the trouble if I can avoid it.

Here are my antennaweb results:

DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
yellow - uhf KLEG-LP 19 SPA DALLAS TX 290° 1.6 19
red - uhf KFWD 52 IND FORT WORTH TX 212° 21.3 52
red - uhf KLDT 55 IND LAKE DALLAS TX 306° 18.0 55
red - vhf KDFW 4 FOX DALLAS TX 213° 21.9 4
red - uhf KXTX 39 TEL DALLAS TX 212° 21.5 39
red - uhf KMPX 29 DAY DECATUR TX 279° 10.5 29
* red - uhf KMPX-DT 30.1 DAY DECATUR TX 279° 10.5 30
red - uhf KUVN 23 UNI GARLAND TX 212° 21.4 23
* red - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 206° 23.6 43
red - vhf WFAA 8 ABC DALLAS TX 213° 21.9 8
* red - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 213° 21.9 9
red - vhf KXAS 5 NBC FORT WORTH TX 212° 21.3 5
red - vhf KERA 13 PBS DALLAS TX 209° 21.4 13
* red - uhf KERA-DT 13.1 PBS DALLAS TX 209° 21.4 14
red - uhf KDAF 33 CW DALLAS TX 206° 23.6 33
* red - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 CW DALLAS TX 206° 23.6 32
red - uhf KDFI 27 MNT DALLAS TX 212° 21.3 27
red - vhf KTVT 11 CBS FORT WORTH TX 209° 21.4 11
* red - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 209° 21.4 19
red - uhf KTXA 21 IND FORT WORTH TX 212° 21.3 21
* red - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 206° 23.6 18
red - uhf KSTR 49 UNI IRVING TX 206° 23.6 49
* blue - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 206° 23.6 48
blue - uhf KPXD 68 i ARLINGTON TX 212° 21.3 68
* blue - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 212° 21.5 41
blue - uhf KJJM-LP 46 FMN DALLAS TX 122° 8.3 46
blue - uhf KDTX 58 TBN DALLAS TX 212° 21.4 58
* blue - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 212° 21.4 24
* blue - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 212° 21.5 40
* blue - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 213° 21.9 35
blue - vhf KDTN 2 DAY DENTON TX 212° 21.3 2
* violet - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 212° 21.3 51
* violet - uhf KDFI-DT 27.1 MNT DALLAS TX 206° 23.6 36
* violet - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 i ARLINGTON TX 213° 21.4 42

Anyone have a suggestion on what indoor antenna to get? I bought one at Radio Shack that's pretty small and has a pre-amp, but it isn't working at all (signal dropping, can't get many channels, etc.). Thanks!

k guys im in euless tx

I have direct tv but its prewired through my apt complex and apparently they don't offer hd. SO I went out and got a rca hdtv antenna with 45db amplification and I get nothing. Any suggestions?

neo22 in Euless you should have no trouble with OTA if your antenna is pointed at Cedar Hill. What is your tuner? A little more description of your setup would help.
JStigler

JStigler -- Looks like WFAA missed the HD switch at 7 pm on Thursday. Ugly Betty was SD for the first 12 minutes, which is 25% of the show.

JStigler -- Looks like WFAA missed the HD switch at 7 pm on Thursday. Ugly Betty was SD for the first 12 minutes, which is 25% of the show.

They missed the HD switch AGAIN yesterday. The Florida/FSU game was supposed to be in HD. The whole thing was broadcast in virtually unwatchable SD. Not sure who to blame there but I prefer to complain about WFAA when I get the chance.

I have a channelmaster 3020 installed in my attic, and can receive Ch. 5.1 8.1 21. 1 and 27.1 pretty well, but the signal strength on 4.1 11.1 and 13.1 is about half that of 27.1 and 21.1, even though some of the unreliable channels fall between the frequencies of 27.1 and 21.1. Are 4.1 11.1 and 13.1 known to be have lower signal strength or am I going to have to tweak my setup?

I have a channelmaster 3020 installed in my attic, and can receive Ch. 5.1 8.1 21. 1 and 27.1 pretty well, but the signal strength on 4.1 11.1 and 13.1 is about half that of 27.1 and 21.1, even though some of the unreliable channels fall between the frequencies of 27.1 and 21.1. Are 4.1 11.1 and 13.1 known to be have lower signal strength or am I going to have to tweak my setup?
3 things you can try are:
1.) remount the antenna on your roof instead of your attic.
2.) Try a better antenna, such as the CM 4228.
3.) Perhaps see if a pre-amp helps your current setup.

neo22 in Euless you should have no trouble with OTA if your antenna is pointed at Cedar Hill. What is your tuner? A little more description of your setup would help.
JStigler

I'm not sure which direction cedar hill is. I'm in euless near 360 and 183 in a 2nd story apt. I'm running a sony kdf46e2000. THis is the antenna I was using
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7367896&st=rca++antenna&type=product&id=1122653825071

I honestly am a little pissed I have a hd tv and can't get hd.

I'm not sure which direction cedar hill is. I'm in euless near 360 and 183 in a 2nd story apt. I'm running a sony kdf46e2000. THis is the antenna I was using
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7367896&st=rca++antenna&type=product&id=1122653825071

I honestly am a little pissed I have a hd tv and can't get hd.

Cedar Hill is just slightly east of due south for you. You are so close that rabbit ears will work just fine. You don't need to know where it is. Just connect the rabbit ears and go through the setup and channel acquisition routine in the directions for the Sony.

So can anyone else (who may actually have the service) confirm that the HDTV channels (4, 5, 8, 11, 13 and, I believe, 21) flow through Time Warner basic cable (the low-end ~$12 service) unencrypted? I'm looking in Mick Wright's general direction here for a second confirmation (or anyone else whose situation to which this also applies).

I regretfully just got an HDTV without a QAM tuner (steal of a deal, however!) from HD, so this probably won't make a difference in my case (unless I can find such an external tuner for the job).

Cedar Hill is just slightly east of due south for you. You are so close that rabbit ears will work just fine. You don't need to know where it is. Just connect the rabbit ears and go through the setup and channel acquisition routine in the directions for the Sony.

oh wait i have to do the setup after i hook the ears up?? I thought i could just hook up the antenna?

I'm not sure which direction cedar hill is. I'm in euless near 360 and 183 in a 2nd story apt. I'm running a sony kdf46e2000. THis is the antenna I was using
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7367896&st=rca++antenna&type=product&id=1122653825071

I honestly am a little pissed I have a hd tv and can't get hd.360 and 183 is WAY too far away for rabbit ears to work..........IMHO :)P..S.go to http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx and follow instructions ....... :)

360 and 183 is WAY too far away for rabbit ears to work..........IMHO :)P..S.go to http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx and follow instructions ....... :)

all that site does is show me what stations are eligible as far as I have tried.

all that site does is show me what stations are eligible as far as I have tried.

It will actually tell you what type of antenna to get based on a color coded system, ie RED, Violet, Green etc. and also what direction each channel is, ie 169 degrees, etc. so that you can point the antenna that way to get reception. There is a map button that you can click and then print out so you have all the directions laid out for you.

Kemical

P.S. I looked up your area and it states that you will need an amplified medium antenna pointed around 157 degrees, the majority of the channels range from 155 to 159 for you. The reason that you need a larger antenna than a set top style antenna could be due to large buildings between you and the antenna array. When I lived in Addison I couldn't get anything with a set top antenna. Try this one http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Indoor-Outdoor-HDTV-Antenna-MANT950/sem/rpsm/oid/158307/catOid/-12886/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do or http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6830824&type=product&productCategoryId=cat08084&id=1091101853739 or something similar. It's a bar antenna that can be mounted above the TV. I used one when I lived in Denver and it worked pretty good.

all that site does is show me what stations are eligible as far as I have tried.Is this how you answer attempts to help you with your problem?
"Thank you, but your answer replied more thought on my end then I was capable of" would be appropiate, and accurate as well.

360 and 183 is WAY too far away for rabbit ears to work..........IMHO :)P..S.go to http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx and follow instructions ....... :).............I honestly am a little pissed I have a hd tv and can't get hd.

Is this how you answer attempts to help you with your problem?
"Thank you, but your answer replied more thought on my end then I was capable of" would be appropiate, and accurate as well.

no not really. MOreso along the lines of everytime I have ran that page I have yet to see any antenna recommendations. It states the direction to point but thats it. It says if you need a uhf or vhf etc... I already have stated what kind of antenna I tried and it had both uhf and vhf. To get most of the locals I have to point the antenna south, seemingly enough my apt faces due east so I don't see how I'm going to get any of those. I can't mount an antenna on a roof or anything like that. SO on that note I'm failing to understand what your point is? I just want an antenna that gets hd.

It will actually tell you what type of antenna to get based on a color coded system, ie RED, Violet, Green etc. and also what direction each channel is, ie 169 degrees, etc. so that you can point the antenna that way to get reception. There is a map button that you can click and then print out so you have all the directions laid out for you.

Kemical

P.S. I looked up your area and it states that you will need an amplified medium antenna pointed around 157 degrees, the majority of the channels range from 155 to 159 for you. The reason that you need a larger antenna than a set top style antenna could be due to large buildings between you and the antenna array. When I lived in Addison I couldn't get anything with a set top antenna. Try this one http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Indoor-Outdoor-HDTV-Antenna-MANT950/sem/rpsm/oid/158307/catOid/-12886/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do or http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6830824&type=product&productCategoryId=cat08084&id=1091101853739 or something similar. It's a bar antenna that can be mounted above the TV. I used one when I lived in Denver and it worked pretty good.

thanks for the links. What is the diff between off air and over the air hd antennas? I've also seen some of the terks that are similar to the phillips for around the same price. Aka the terk 55 etc... Is this one of those things where I just have to buy and antenna and try it out till I find one that works?

Well, I bought a $10 Philips antenna and hooked it up two days ago. I can get all local HD channels without moving the antenna except for channel 8. Any ideas other than just moving the antenna around? Does anyone know if there's anything special I need to do to get this channel? I want to watch Lost in HD :P

Well, I bought a $10 Philips antenna and hooked it up two days ago. I can get all local HD channels without moving the antenna except for channel 8. Any ideas other than just moving the antenna around? Does anyone know if there's anything special I need to do to get this channel? I want to watch Lost in HD :P
Channel 8 is VHF while the others are UHF. You don't say what kind of antenna you have and I suspect it may or may not work with WFAA.

I live about 40 miles away from the transmitters in north Dallas. I have a single coax cable with about 3.5 feet of exposed wire (stripped of all insulation). It's mounted horizontally in a closet within the interior of my house (where my wiring closet is). No amplifier is used. I get all stations in Dallas, including WFAA. Talk about cheap!

I live about 40 miles away from the transmitters in north Dallas. I have a single coax cable with about 3.5 feet of exposed wire (stripped of all insulation). It's mounted horizontally in a closet within the interior of my house (where my wiring closet is). No amplifier is used. I get all stations in Dallas, including WFAA. Talk about cheap!

Sounds like an Aggie setup, if I've ever heard one before... :D

...I supposed the 3.5 feet is a calculated 3.5 feet, huh?

360 and 183 is WAY too far away for rabbit ears to work..........IMHO :)P..S.go to http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx and follow instructions ....... :)

Nope. It's 19 air miles. Plenty close for rabbit ears.

It is amazing how complicated some people make this process. :(

thanks for the links. What is the diff between off air and over the air hd antennas? I've also seen some of the terks that are similar to the phillips for around the same price. Aka the terk 55 etc... Is this one of those things where I just have to buy and antenna and try it out till I find one that works?

OTA and off air mean the same thing. And yes, you will probably need to go into the setup menus for your TV and have it search for local digital channels. Just hook up a coat hanger or something simple and see if you can get a few right now so you can get some confidence in what you are doing?

Nope. It's 19 air miles. Plenty close for rabbit ears.

It is amazing how complicated some people make this process. :(
you two should go for a plane ride to Cedar Hill

you two should go for a plane ride to Cedar Hill


The problem with OTA is that while one person may get everything with a coat hanger another person living right next door may need an amplified antenna. The point is that unfortunetely OTA can sometimes be trial and error. In my own experience I had a basic antenna on my roof and was getting some channels. I switched out to a better antenna(larger) and placed it in the exact same place and couldn't get anything. I ended up having to raise it up and down and played with it for a while until I got the best reception. Being in an apartment can have other issues from other buildings, not being high enough up, interference from other signals, you get the idea. The reason I suggested those antennas was because they were low profile, easily mounted and fairly good antennas. You may fine that a paperclip gets you HD channels, who knows, but don't get discouraged and remember, you are trying to get something that will not cost you a dime( other than the antenna) that you will enjoy tremendously. Just try hooking up an antenna and then scan for digital channels. Remember that typically only FOX, ABC, NBC, CW and CBS broadcast programs in HD so look for those channels. Hope this helps and just keep your chin up, trust me, it will be worth the aggravation when you get it setup.

Kemical

OTA and off air mean the same thing. And yes, you will probably need to go into the setup menus for your TV and have it search for local digital channels. Just hook up a coat hanger or something simple and see if you can get a few right now so you can get some confidence in what you are doing?

it did that at the initial setup and found none.

it did that at the initial setup and found none.

I agree with Kemical in that the variables are infinite, even to the point that what works for your neighbor might not work for you. You are just trying to get a starting point.

There is something wrong with your lack of success. When I got my first ATSC tuner 3 years ago I was living in Flower Mound, 15 air miles further north of you. I got 5 or 6 channels with rabbit ears. Of course I wanted all 19 so I put up a CM anntenna and preamp. But the point is that from where you are you should get SOME channels with rabbit ears or a paper clip as a proof of concept, or there is a fundamental problem that even a 100 foot tower won't solve.

I'm in Euless also and until just recently was using the same rabbit ears as Neo22. The only channel I had problems with was WFAA. So, Neo22, you should not have a problem with it if you are setting it up correctly.
Once I found the coax running from the roof mounted antenna, wow what a difference!!

BTW, I had the best luck with that little antenna when I had it pointed just a little west of south, although the transmitters are just east of south.

I'm in Euless also and until just recently was using the same rabbit ears as Neo22. The only channel I had problems with was WFAA. So, Neo22, you should not have a problem with it if you are setting it up correctly.
Once I found the coax running from the roof mounted antenna, wow what a difference!!

Good input. The point is that Neo22 is getting nothing no matter what he uses. Talking about a better, bigger, higher antenna is pointless until he figures out what he is doing wrong with the proverbial paper clip.

I'm in Euless also and until just recently was using the same rabbit ears as Neo22. The only channel I had problems with was WFAA. So, Neo22, you should not have a problem with it if you are setting it up correctly.
Once I found the coax running from the roof mounted antenna, wow what a difference!!

BTW, I had the best luck with that little antenna when I had it pointed just a little west of south, although the transmitters are just east of south.

By euless I am right next to the airport, I am literally on 360 so that MAY be the problem.

If anyone is willing to get my hd working I will pay a small fee or a 6pack

neo22, make sure the connections are correct. Plug the antenna coax into the 'Air In' coax, not the 'Air + Cable', use the TV input button on the TV's remote to get AIR or DTV Air. Go into the TV's menu and program air only. Something should come up.


neo22 I just sent you a private message.

By euless I am right next to the airport, I am literally on 360 so that MAY be the problem.

Why do you think that might be a problem?

neo22, I thought I'd summarize my findings from apartment-based indoor antenna HD viewing. Here are some links to previous posts in this thread, and the key statements:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7465417&&#post7465417
... I was looking at other antennas and found this cheap little philips antenna. It said it was 50db and looked half way decent for a indoor antenna. ... Come to find out this thing works fantastic!!!!!!!!!!. It was 25 dollars and the philips model number is MANT510. every HD channel is at least 70%. ... i got this thing at walmart. Yes i said walmart. it amazed the hell out of me to....... :)

That was the first one I got, too. Unfortunately, I could not get it to pull in all of the channels from my location, but it was the cheap "proof of concept" that convinced me that it was possible to recieve OTA signals indoors here in Denton .

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6419322&&#post6419322
Here in Denton, we're far enough away from the antenna farm (definitely in fringe area) that it takes a lot of experimentation to get the right combination of antenna/amp and placement. ... What's making the best difference is mounting my Silver Sensor indoor antenna onto an old video tripod I had lying around. Now I can easily move the antenna to various locations in my apartment, and can vary the height as well. I find that certain channels (like Fox and NBC) require a different location than the others (CBS, PBS, UPN, WB).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6499718&&#post6499718
Well, I finally got WFAA-DT OTA here in Denton. I picked up a pair of rabbit ears from Radio Shack and connected them to the ChannelMaster 7777 amp I got recently, already conected to a Silver Sensor. (After getting nothing, I realized the internal switch was still set to 'combined' instead of 'seperate'.) ... PS: I did some research on setting up the rabbit ears, and after trying several of the recommended values for VHF channel 9, the horizontal tip-to-tip length of 30 inches (left flat/straight out, not in a 'V') did the best for me.

Your situation may end up being quite different, as you are closer to the broadcast towers than those of us up here in Denton. So you might not need an "extreme" indoor setup like I have (Silver Sensor indoor UHF antenna, rabbit ears for VHF, ChannelMaster 7777 pre-amp to combine the two). The Phillips model from the first post (item MANT510 at Wal-Mart) is a relatively cheap and easy-to-find first-try option -- and it could be returned if it didn't work for you.

I also have a Sony HD set (not the same model), so I'd also suggest following SFS97's suggestions regarding the coax inputs on the back, and double-checking which 'input' you're running the setup against: it is easy on the Sonys to connect the antenna to the wrong physical input, and to run the setup on the wrong internal input.

neo22, make sure the connections are correct. Plug the antenna coax into the 'Air In' coax, not the 'Air + Cable', use the TV input button on the TV's remote to get AIR or DTV Air. Go into the TV's menu and program air only. Something should come up.


neo22 I just sent you a private message.

on the back of the tv there is a "cable" coax, and a "uhf, vhf" coax connection. I tried the antenna on teh uhf vhf connection first and then also on the cable.

neo22, I thought I'd summarize my findings from apartment-based indoor antenna HD viewing. Here are some links to previous posts in this thread, and the key statements:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7465417&&#post7465417




http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6419322&&#post6419322


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6499718&&#post6499718


Your situation may end up being quite different, as you are closer to the broadcast towers than those of us up here in Denton. So you might not need an "extreme" indoor setup like I have (Silver Sensor indoor UHF antenna, rabbit ears for VHF, ChannelMaster 7777 pre-amp to combine the two). The Phillips model from the first post (item MANT510 at Wal-Mart) is a relatively cheap and easy-to-find first-try option -- and it could be returned if it didn't work for you.

I also have a Sony HD set (not the same model), so I'd also suggest following SFS97's suggestions regarding the coax inputs on the back, and double-checking which 'input' you're running the setup against: it is easy on the Sonys to connect the antenna to the wrong physical input, and to run the setup on the wrong internal input.

All I can find at walmart is the 410 and the 490...

I've been reading about neo22's quest for HDTV with some amusement. Everyone thinks their antenna is the best and will work for everyone, but radio waves follow the laws of physics, not the principals of marketing.

I live near Cedar Hill, but I drive up and down the entire length of 360 every working day, so I'm familiar with the area where neo22 lives. Using Google Earth, I drew a line from where he lives along 360 to where the TV towers are in Cedar Hill, and as I suspected, that line passes right through the 183/360 interchange, with all of it's embankments, steel reinforced concrete roadways, overpasses, and bridge supports. Wonderful stuff for blocking and/or reflecting radio waves.

Next I went to antennaweb.org and centered the street level map along that same line. Sure enough, if you live anywere along that line, so that the signal passes through the interchange, you'll need a medium directional (red) antenna. Go just to the right or left of that line, and a small multi-directional antenna is all you need. As someone said earlier, OTA signals can be hit or miss depending on exactly where you live.

The Silver Sensor is a good directional UHF antenna, so are bow-tie UHF antennas (see links below). The bad thing about directional antennas is you have to point them directly at the transmitting tower for the channel you want to watch, but in this case, that's not a problem. Channel 8 may be troublesome because it broadcasts using VHF. A directional UHF antenna may not work well for them, so you may also need a directional VHF antenna and a splitter/combiner to merge the signals together.

Welcome to the world of HDTV.

RF

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?parentPage=search&summary=summary&cp=2032057&productId=2103058&accessories=accessories&rpg=3&kw=antenna&kwCatId=2032057&techSpecs=techSpecs&currentTab=custRatings&custRatings=custRatings&f=Taxonomy%2FRSK%2F2032057&features=features&categoryId=2032057&support=support&tab=summary

http://antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DoubleBow.html

Channel 8 is VHF while the others are UHF. You don't say what kind of antenna you have and I suspect it may or may not work with WFAA.

It's some random Phillips with UHF/VHF. I guess I'll just need to turn the dial to VHF and see if it'll find it in the programming.

I've been reading about neo22's quest for HDTV with some amusement. Everyone thinks their antenna is the best and will work for everyone, but radio waves follow the laws of physics, not the principals of marketing.

I live near Cedar Hill, but I drive up and down the entire length of 360 every working day, so I'm familiar with the area where neo22 lives. Using Google Earth, I drew a line from where he lives along 360 to where the TV towers are in Cedar Hill, and as I suspected, that line passes right through the 183/360 interchange, with all of it's embankments, steel reinforced concrete roadways, overpasses, and bridge supports. Wonderful stuff for blocking and/or reflecting radio waves.

Next I went to antennaweb.org and centered the street level map along that same line. Sure enough, if you live anywere along that line, so that the signal passes through the interchange, you'll need a medium directional (red) antenna. Go just to the right or left of that line, and a small multi-directional antenna is all you need. As someone said earlier, OTA signals can be hit or miss depending on exactly where you live.

The Silver Sensor is a good directional UHF antenna, so are bow-tie UHF antennas (see links below). The bad thing about directional antennas is you have to point them directly at the transmitting tower for the channel you want to watch, but in this case, that's not a problem. Channel 8 may be troublesome because it broadcasts using VHF. A directional UHF antenna may not work well for them, so you may also need a directional VHF antenna and a splitter/combiner to merge the signals together.

Welcome to the world of HDTV.

RF

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?parentPage=search&summary=summary&cp=2032057&productId=2103058&accessories=accessories&rpg=3&kw=antenna&kwCatId=2032057&techSpecs=techSpecs&currentTab=custRatings&custRatings=custRatings&f=Taxonomy%2FRSK%2F2032057&features=features&categoryId=2032057&support=support&tab=summary

http://antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DoubleBow.html

just think 360 and harwood road some apts right in front of the freeway. What makes bowtie antennas any different than others?

Neo22, are you getting any channels, analog even, when you do the set up? If not, then something is not right.

Neo22, are you getting any channels, analog even, when you do the set up? If not, then something is not right.

with my coax cable plugged into my wall outlet I get around 30 analog channels. BUT thats bc my apts are prewired. So apparently they run off a dish. STill not digital signals.

So can anyone else (who may actually have the service) confirm that the HDTV channels (4, 5, 8, 11, 13 and, I believe, 21) flow through Time Warner basic cable (the low-end ~$12 service) unencrypted? I'm looking in Mick Wright's general direction here for a second confirmation (or anyone else whose situation to which this also applies).

I regretfully just got an HDTV without a QAM tuner (steal of a deal, however!) from HD, so this probably won't make a difference in my case (unless I can find such an external tuner for the job).
I guess the answer is negative then?

I'm using a Silver Sensor for receiving my UHF channels (in Frisco), but I'm really starting to miss the ABC-HD so I'm considering attempting to get another small indoor (hopefully) antenna that supports VHF well. Any recommendations? I have a separate ATSC tuner on my TV I can use for testing so I can keep them separate. Thanks for the help.

Anyone with an HR20 and AT9 having signal issue with today's freeze?

Anyone with an HR20 and AT9 having signal issue with today's freeze?


No problems here.....

I'm using a Silver Sensor for receiving my UHF channels (in Frisco), but I'm really starting to miss the ABC-HD so I'm considering attempting to get another small indoor (hopefully) antenna that supports VHF well. Any recommendations? I have a separate ATSC tuner on my TV I can use for testing so I can keep them separate. Thanks for the help.

Indoor antennas for ABC digital (on channel 9) at your range are pretty difficult. The physics is against you - VHF antennas need to be large. I'm not sure what to suggest. All indoor VHF antennas are basically a set of "rabbit ears" so you could try those and see what you get.

I am getting ZERO and I am very close to downtown..........making me nuts. Anyone else out of service?

I am getting ZERO and I am very close to downtown..........making me nuts. Anyone else out of service?
It might've been weather related. Due to the heavy rain (I assume), my apt.'s Dish Network TV signal went out for about 10-15 min. while I was watching the Conan O'Brien show.

just think 360 and harwood road some apts right in front of the freeway. What makes bowtie antennas any different than others?

The Silver Sensor and bowtie antennas are directional UHF antennas, meaning they designed to pick up TV signals from one direction only. The VHF rabbit ear/UHF loop antenna you bought is multi-directional, meaning it picks up TV signals from any direction. (BTW, even though it's labeled an "HDTV" antenna, that antenna has been around for decades. My grandparents had one just like it back in the 60's when most TVs were still black and white.)

A directional antenna is only sensitive to signals coming straight at it, and insensitive to signals coming at it from behind or from either side, which can reduce or even eliminate multipath interference.

Multipath interference occurs when the main TV signal is either blocked or made weaker by an obstacle, like a tall building, hill, or highway interchange. This allows reflected signals coming from the side or even behind to have more impact. On an analog TV, multipath interference is what causes "ghost" images. On some digital TVs, the digital tuner can't sort out which signal to lock on to, so it doesn't lock on to any.

If your TV isn't picking up any analog or digital channels at all with your current antenna, then the antenna may be in a "null zone" where there simply is no TV signal. If so, then moving the antenna around may help. You may have to move the antenna into another room, so you'll need a long cable to test this. It's also possible that your apartment exterior is made of stucco with a wire mesh backing. The wire mesh can completely block TV signals. The only solution in that case is to mount the antenna outside somewhere.

The simple fact of the matter is that you may not be able to recieve an over-the-air HDTV signal given the constraints present in your current location. You may have to wait for your apartment to offer HD or move to another apartment unit, preferably one facing south.

RF

Neophite here....

I am trying to say good bye to cable. I live in south Plano (near Dallas Morning News) in a single story home. I'd like to put the antenna in the attic.

I purchased a DB-8 antenna,

however a friend in the business said that he likes the Winegard Sensar...

But on paper the Winegard is not rated as highly. He said the trick is you can get the Winegard higher.

Anyone have any experience with either of these?
Thanks in Advance