When I switch to my RF input which has an old jerrold cable box connected to it, I get a good picture for about 3 seconds and then i see this auto focusing and it then get a lil blurred..very noticeable. I've look hard and long for a setting in the service menu for this, but no luck...does anyone know what the setting or problem coul be? Only happens with RF, and I've tried switching to all DRC modes.I have no experience with any kind of problem like this. I guess I need to know more by what you mean by "blurred." Does it look like diagonal lines get very jaggy? Like the number of vertical lines is cut in half? (Horizontal detail stays about the same.) Or is horizontal detail affected, too? A soft & mushy blur, like a camera blur? Are the TV's scan lines getting blurred at all, or just the image?

The "character" of this blur might indicate the cause. Or digital before-and-after photos.

Question: What is the purpose of this Jerrold box? Can't you feed the cable directly? Or is this a digital-cable converter? (You said "old," so I wasn't thinking digital-caable.)

I should have prefaced my comment on White Balance and Gray-scale with “as it pertains to video display calibration color temp”. My goal, when setting White Balance/Gray-scale is to achieve, as close as possible, the same color temperature at low IRE and High IRE levels. The luminance levels of the different steps form 0 IRE to 100 IRE, can be affected by many things. Brightness can severely affect the low IRE Gray scale luminance. If set too low you can effectively have 0-30 IRE the lumen level, black. With contrast, clipping can occur. I have seen TVs that will clip clear down to 60 IRE (60-100 IRE looks the same, white). Additionally, with Picture/Contrast, you can have some color shift. Some CRTs when driven too hard can look slightly yellow.

Yes, there are many different meanings to terms used here, and I am assuming we are talking about calibration a video display to watch movies……. When it comes to calibrating a TV, I think of Color Temperature, White Balance, Gray-scale or Gray-scale tracking all the same thing. Getting this properly set includes properly setting Contrast, Brightness, Color, Tint, Sharpness and the RGB settings necessary (including offsets) to achieve the desired temperature (currently the industry standard is 6500K). Additionally, the gamma curve should to be reviewed to check for adjustments needed to optimize the Gamma. Even if the Gamma can’t be set to the desired setting, there shouldn’t be any sudden changes in the curve.

This is a great thread and I'm learning quite a bit but, technically speaking, I got lost about 4 pages back. I have one (hopefully) simple problem that I would like to correct. Blacks in my 960 have a green tint. Glenn, Ken and ADU, you guys definitely know what you are talking about and I would really appreciate it if you could tell me which SM adjustments need to be changed to get rid of the green tint. I'm familiar with the SM as I was able to correct many of my initial geometry problems using the knowledge gained in this thread. My wife never noticed the geometry issues but she really sees the green tint in the blacks. If I know which registers to adjust, I can "play" with the numbers to suit my visual taste but I am really confused about the effects of BCUT,RCUT, GCUT, etc. I don't want to make things worse so any help would really be appreciated.

Thanks!!

Hi All-

Following the great guidance in this thread, I have made some initially refinements in service mode in my HS420 - so far, so good.

A few problems and a few questions came up:

1) While I was working, I inadvertently hit a couple of the nono keys - each time, I immediately cycled the power off and started over, and I think nothing bad happened. A couple times it happened while trying to write a change - after hitting Mute, I inadvertently hit the 9 key instead of the Enter (adjacent). Am I safe in assuming this single key press would do no damage? Nothing apparent happened?

Similarly, at one point, when trying to change a code, I missed the 4 key and either hit the 7 or the Jump button on my remote. This time, the text "INI -" flashed in the upper right. Again, I turned off power immediately, and nothing seemed to have been messed up - but I was a bit worried about the meaning of that text.

One other problem - at various times, while working in SM with input from the HD DVR/cable box (comcast), the image would change to show a vertically split screen with two copies of the image side by side - sort of a badly synched split screen. At first, I got very concerned about this, because powering the tv off didn't fix it, but then I found that powering off the cable box seemed to restore normal cable input. But it seemed very strange - any insight into this? Seems to imply that the SM activity somehow was communicated to the cable box in that it altered what was happening there - is that right?

2) My question - I successfully tweaked things like black levels - both SBRT and some of the input specific offsets, as well as Gamma and VM, and started trying to work on color temp. However, I didn't see any codes for setting contrast/white level. Should contrast be set only in user slides for each picture mode, or are there also service codes for this that I somehow missed?

Also - can you guys point me to any source that would be helpful in figuring out which targets in the AVIA disk to use for various kinds of adjustments and how to do so? Some are obvious, but others much less so.

Thanks again!
Michael

For contrast i'd just use the user menu, it's more than adequete.

I'd leave color temp alone since you can't do this by eye, you need the appropriate equipment to measure it correctly.I think it's called a color analyzer and ISF guys usually carry these.

1) While I was working, I inadvertently hit a couple of the nono keys - each time, I immediately cycled the power off and started over, and I think nothing bad happened. A couple times it happened while trying to write a change - after hitting Mute, I inadvertently hit the 9 key instead of the Enter (adjacent). Am I safe in assuming this single key press would do no damage? Nothing apparent happened?

Similarly, at one point, when trying to change a code, I missed the 4 key and either hit the 7 or the Jump button on my remote. This time, the text "INI -" flashed in the upper right. Again, I turned off power immediately, and nothing seemed to have been messed up - but I was a bit worried about the meaning of that text.

One other problem - at various times, while working in SM with input from the HD DVR/cable box (comcast), the image would change to show a vertically split screen with two copies of the image side by side - sort of a badly synched split screen. At first, I got very concerned about this, because powering the tv off didn't fix it, but then I found that powering off the cable box seemed to restore normal cable input. But it seemed very strange - any insight into this? Seems to imply that the SM activity somehow was communicated to the cable box in that it altered what was happening there - is that right?

Michael

I can comment on a couple of your questions:

1) Do NOT, and I mean NOT push the 7 or 9 or jump or any combination. I did and I lost all settings including geometry and convergence. It takes weeks of tweaking to get that back. Other advice in SM: Do not change or save without writing down the original settings. Default settings - Do not move between menues without saving, you will loose changes, and do not change input i.e. from 1080i to 480i without saving.

The problem you have with double image is from your cablebox. It also happens when you switch between inputs with different format. Just move up a channel and back again and the input is back to normal.

Hi again - so given that I *did* inadvertently hit 9 once and either 7 or jump another time- but then immediately cycled power, is it safe to say that I would know immediately had I screwed something up? When you do hit one of those buttons, are the changes cleared if you don't write them, or are you immediately screwed no matter what you do next?

I watched some programs from cable after, and things seemed pretty normal - but I have this fear that something bad happened that I just haven't noticed yet.

From what you described, I assume it would be pretty clear if I had lost geometry or convergence settings, yes?

Also - do you know what that INI - message was?

Thanks,
Michael

Hi - To follow up on my earlier question more clearly, I think what I'm wondering about is whether there is a service mode setting for contrast/white level that is analogous the UBOF settings - that is, can you tweak contrast differently for different inputs? For instance, as Kentech has previously noted, some of the HD broadcast (like LOST) is very dark, and seems to consistently need a higher setting. Is there an alternative to changining the contrast setting in the user menu each time you change inputs?

Thanks,
Michael

Hi again - so given that I *did* inadvertently hit 9 once and either 7 or jump another time- but then immediately cycled power, is it safe to say that I would know immediately had I screwed something up? When you do hit one of those buttons, are the changes cleared if you don't write them, or are you immediately screwed no matter what you do next?


4-1.5. RESETTING THE DATA
CAUTION: Be careful when using the remote! It will clear and reinitialize
ALL NVM data including defl ection adjustment data if not
reset properly as follows:

4-1.6. RESETTING THE MID NVM DATA
1. Enter into Service Mode.
2. Press 7 then JUMP , and then press ENTER on the remote.

4-1.7. RESETTING THE SYSTEM NVM DATA
1. Enter into Service Mode.
(This resets DEFL adjust and video white balance.)
2. Press 7 then 9 , and then press ENTER on the remote.

This it what the Service Manual says - and yes if you lost all your settings it starts up in the default screen asking you to select your language, tilt and vertival correction. And the image is bent inwards from all corners.

Remember the default settings you might read from the service manual or from one of the spreadsheets in this forum, are NOT your defaults. All sets are color and geometry calibrated before leaving the factory. So you have to write down your actual settings before starting.

Hi -

Sorry for the rash of questions to this thread - been re-reading previous posts, and new questions come to my head.

I'm having some difficulty understanding the difference between correcting color push vs setting color temp/white balance. I understand (I think) that red push means increasing the "drive" to the red gun and we want to get rid of that to get more even color balance - but doesn't this also interact with the color temp settings? Drive and Cut?

Are these two calibrations affecting totally independent aspects of how the image is produced? Or alternatively, if I change the color temp via the approach outlined early in the thread, wouldn't that alter "push"? Or more importantly, wouldn't correcting push alter color temp?

There's a certain irony in my posting these questions, as my very first job out of college as an EE many moons ago was working for Eastman Kodak, where I did a bit of work on circuits related to control of CRTs in photofinishing equipment. So theoretically, I ought to understand this very well ! Alas, that part of my brain is more or less inaccessible these days....

Thanks!
Michael

I'm now about 3+ weeks into the KD-36XS955 world, and I'm loving it.

Used the user settings to adjust get the set closer to ideal than it was out of the box (using AVIA and the HDNet test pattern). One thing that's still off is overscan. Here's my question:

The picture now is evenly spread across the screen, and up and down. But by adjusting overscan, I will alter the proportions, right?

In other words, since I have more vertical overscan than horizontal, I'm going to end up with the people all squashed and funny looking. Or am I missing something here?

Any help in understanding this is appreciated...

4-1.5. RESETTING THE DATA
CAUTION: Be careful when using the remote! It will clear and reinitialize
ALL NVM data including defl ection adjustment data if not
reset properly as follows:

4-1.6. RESETTING THE MID NVM DATA
1. Enter into Service Mode.
2. Press 7 then JUMP , and then press ENTER on the remote.

4-1.7. RESETTING THE SYSTEM NVM DATA
1. Enter into Service Mode.
(This resets DEFL adjust and video white balance.)
2. Press 7 then 9 , and then press ENTER on the remote.

This it what the Service Manual says - and yes if you lost all your settings it starts up in the default screen asking you to select your language, tilt and vertival correction. And the image is bent inwards from all corners.

Remember the default settings you might read from the service manual or from one of the spreadsheets in this forum, are NOT your defaults. All sets are color and geometry calibrated before leaving the factory. So you have to write down your actual settings before starting.Whoa there!! I wouldn't advise using the reset functions in the SM, particularly without guidance from Sony. If you use these, you may have ALOT of work to do to reconstruct your settings and get a decent picture back (which I think is ptchristensen's point above).

AFAIK, these procedures DO NOT restore the SM to the way it was when you bought it. They will actually ERASE important factory adjustments in TV that will be a bitch to reapply yourself!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

I'm having some difficulty understanding the difference between correcting color push vs setting color temp/white balance. I understand (I think) that red push means increasing the "drive" to the red gun and we want to get rid of that to get more even color balance - but doesn't this also interact with the color temp settings? Drive and Cut?These concepts are easy to confuse. No, red "push" is not related to white balance at all. (You likely already understand the first part of the explanation, but I'll state it anyway for others' benefit.)

Setting a perfect white balance and grayscale can be accomplished in the *absence* of any color at all. Just as with TVs of 20-40 years ago, the xCUT controls determine when the screen starts to glow as the video-signal voltage increases from its minimum, on its way from black to white. Ideally, all of the color guns start to glow at the same time, and you get neutral dark gray. But this isn't how CRTs generally behave, and it is tuned by using different settings of R-, G-, and BCUT.

As the video signal reaches the value for "white," ideally all three color guns contribute the right amounts to produce a pure white, which is defined in the video-production world as 6500K -- roughly the color of front-lighted white clouds at mid-day. Whereas the xCUT controls determine at what point the color guns *begin* illuminating the screen, the xDRV controls determine how much "drive" each gun gets as the video goes from "black" to white. You would adjust R-, G-, and BDRV to get that perfect white, using a known white pattern or a high-contrast TV picture with color turned all the way down.

The xCUT and xDRV adjustments interact. (To an engineer they are classic offset-and-gain adjustments.) A 5-point change in RCUT makes a big change in color of dark gray, but very little change in the color of white because those 5 points are now only a small percentage of the total white. Likewise, the xDRV controls slightly affect the color of dark gray. Obviously one goes back and forth between the two control groups until everything looks fine. And generally, if you get the darkest grays and white right, the grays in the middle are fine, too.

Now that you have a perfectly-calibrated grayscale and white point, we introduce color. But here's where "push" comes in: It is the *favoring* of certain colors by the process that extracts the color from the TV signal, whatever it is. Imagine a picture of three kids with red, blue, and green tee-shirts of equal intensity in the real world, standing on a gray concrete driveway. Some TVs will show the red shirt as much more intense than the others, as with all other reds in the picture. (White and grays, by the way, and that driveway are still perfectly neutral.) This is "red push" -- a *favoring* of red in the color-decoding process. Whatever the historical arguments for this regarding NTSC broadcast deficiencies, color push is now considered a no-no, and *accurate* color decoding is preferred. (Matches reality, no?)

Sony's late-model computer-driven TVs have exquisite controls for all of this in their service-mode codes: Grayscale and white can be finely tuned (basic controls: xCUT and xDRV), and color-push can be reduced to virtually zero with 2170P-4/RYR thru GYB plus a good test pattern from, say, the DVE DVD. Plus, the TV will store two different sets of values for RYR-GYB, for the "Default" and "Monitor" user-menu choices.

Are these two calibrations affecting totally independent aspects of how the image is produced?Different aspects of how the video is processed by the TV and then displayed, yes.Or alternatively, if I change the color temp via the approach outlined early in the thread, wouldn't that alter "push"? Or more importantly, wouldn't correcting push alter color temp?Nope, they're independent.. . . working for Eastman Kodak, where I did a bit of work on circuits related to control of CRTs in photofinishing equipment. So theoretically, I ought to understand this very well.If you think of TV color-push as analogous to a specific color film's "personality," you may come close. When you worked with color CRTs for photofinishing, color push would have been an unacceptable defect, I would think, as it is with the color-prepress monitors I have set up. The "push" is created by the TV for an "esthetic" purpose.

Unfortunately, TV manufacturers keep throwing these color "improvements" at us, and we have to keep getting rid of them. Lucky it is that, with these Sony sets, it's a relative breeze. With some older sets, there is no way to alter the color decoding.

My experience, and that of several other posters here, has been that the following settings generally kill all color push for the XBR960 and recent XS955 CRT TVs:

2170P-4 / RYR-RYB-GYR-GYB = 13-15-5-3. (Then WRITE the settings.)

But grayscale and color depend heavily on your particular CRT and its characteristics.

some of the HD broadcast (like LOST) is very dark, and seems to consistently need a higher setting. Is there an alternative to changining the contrast setting in the user menu each time you change inputs?When I watch Lost, CSI/Miami, or any other dark HD program, my choice has been to invoke a lower *gamma* that raises the midtone brightness while leaving black and white alone. White is still dazzling, but the blacks now have increased detail, and the mid-tones appear more natural/realistic.

There is no instant built-in control for this in the user menu. On my TV, I have set up the Pro and Movie modes to be *exactly* the same. (See my articles #04 and 05, posts #5 and 6, in this thread.) Except that (1) I have set GAMM = 1 in Movie mode and (2) set GAMR, GAMG, and GAMB each to 3 and GAMS to 0. Now when I switch from Pro (GAMM = 0 with all GAMx at 0) to Movie mode, the gamma is reduced from about 2.45 to 2.2, and that seems much more pleasing for a lot of HD material. But if the picture seems a bit flat for some broadcasts, I make sure it's in Pro mode with its higher gamma. Point is: Now it's *my* choice!

by adjusting overscan, I will alter the proportions, right? In other words, since I have more vertical overscan than horizontal, I'm going to end up with the people all squashed and funny looking. Or am I missing something here?No, you aren't. You can mess up proportions by adjusting either vertical or horizontal overscan independently. If you use a test pattern, however, that has circular patterns in it, there's little chance of that: You'll see it immediately in the circle. You can even measure the circle to make sure you're close.

I knew something was funny with my set out of the box when the round PBS logo started looking squat in HD. Easy to fix. Just keep the circles circular, and adjust for minimum overscan that hides the defects at the raster's edges. I've ended up at about 4% for 4:3 full-screen material.

Then you want to adjust those blanking "shutters" that are supposed keep the electron beam from striking the sides of the tube: 2170D-3/R-, L-, T-, and BBLK. Procedure: reduce shutters so you can see the true, messy edge of the raster, and adjust the overscan for a clean display, as above. Then increase the shutters so you can just see them, then retract them a bit so they're not visible.

given that I *did* inadvertently hit 9 once and either 7 or jump another time- but then immediately cycled power, is it safe to say that I would know immediately had I screwed something up?Very likely. Recycling power restores previous settings because they are re-read from memory at power-up. Replugging the power cord as well guarantees it. (Yes, there may be a couple of settings -- I know of one in AUDIO -- that survive the Power button, but not unplugging the set.)When you do hit one of those buttons, are the changes cleared if you don't write them, or are you immediately screwed no matter what you do next?No, they're cleared. In fact, if you do nothing for a few seconds after making a goof, the screen will indicate "SERVICE" again, and you are again NOT in WRITE or INI- mode. Note that the most disastrous mistakes take more than two keystrokes (in that few-seconds period), but thet WRITE takes only two.

However -- if you have made some experimental choices in a code or several that are global settings, and you have gone away from them and become distracted, those settings might be written inadvertently when you do your next intended WRITE. If you are ever in doubt, recycle power, going back into service mode, which guarantees you are starting over "safe." I can't tell you how many times I have done this. I tinker and tinker, then have some kind of epiphany about a certain setting and want to WRITE it. I have learned to stop, make a note of what I want to do, then recycle power, go back to those settings, change them, *then* WRITE. Better safe . . .

Blacks in my 960 have a green tint. Glenn, Ken and ADU, you guys definitely know what you are talking about and I would really appreciate it if you could tell me which SM adjustments need to be changed to get rid of the green tint.Let's assume it is not the program material. (PBS-HD material frequently has green/yellow-tinted blacks. Drives me nuts! I have complained.) You can see it across different inputs, right, and when the Color slider is all the way down?

The settings that most affect "black" and dark grays are the xCUT codes, but they contribute a little to the color of white, as well. You can try decreasing 2170P-1/GCUT until dark grays match whites in color. Sometimes it involves yellow, too, and raising BCUT a bit may help. Note that the average xCUT settings affect black level, and you may need to readjust SBRT a little to compensate. Try to keep at least one of the xCUT settings close to its previous value. *WRITE DOWN* your changes before and as you make them!

The goal, as you adjust these things without a color-temperature meter, is (1) to get the color of dark, medium, and light gray to match each other and the color of white; and to *simultaneously* (2) get white to look really *white.* Not pinkish, bluish, reddish, etc. If you do this with Color turned down to zero in a fairly dark, neutrally-lighted room, and you avoid *staring* at the TV, you can come close to something quite pleasing, as your eye compensates for a lot. But the eye is much less forgiving of grayscale nonlinearities. Get that grayscale nice and even: No warm whites plus greenish or bluish shadows!

However, my experience with dark-room, eye-based calibrations are that they turn out a little cool in white balance. As I have already written, front-lighted puffy-white clouds at mid-day are a nice reality-check, usually a little warmer than the "ideal" 6500K temperature, but very good. Most important, they illustrate an absence of green or pink contamiation or excessive blue.

Ken,

Thanks for the information. I can tolerate a small amount of blue in the picture (it seems to give it a little more "punch") but the green is really annoying. I have switched to many different HD stations and most have the tint. I reduced the color level to 0 in the User Menu and was able to detect the green tint in the B&W picture. I'll try adjusting the 2170P-1/GCUT tonight and see what happens.

Thanks again!!

I've been poking around trying to find information on LEDs and other light sources that could be used as a D65 white reference, and haven't had too much luck so far. It looks like white LEDs come in several different temps, ranging anywhere from 4500k to 8000k And that they may have some noticeable variation in temperature from hot spot to penumbra, though you can probably find some close to 6500k if you search around a bit. The couple of white key chain LEDs I looked at appeared to be more in the Cool White 8000K range (ie a bit too blueish).

If you don't have some midday clouds handy, then perhaps the ~6500k bulbs some folks use for backlighting might be another option:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=457131

You'd probably also a need a very neutral white surface to shine them on (like perhaps the photocards Glen mentioned). A good art/paint/paper/photographic supply shop might help with this. If anyone has other ideas for affordable D65 light sources/white references though, please chime in. My search continues...

I've been poking around trying to find information on LEDs and other light sources that could be used as a D65 white reference, and haven't had too much luck so far.Neither have I. One of the problems of LEDs, as I recall from my electronics experience, is that their light output is a bit temperature-sensitive. If the R, G, and B LEDs differ in this regard, then the temp of the light changes as well. Maybe this is ameliorated by using a constant-current source for energizing each LED. Of course, then you would have to make *that* insensitive to temperature, or maybe even compensate for the LED's characteristics. You would have to integrate the light from the three LEDs.

Another choice would be to combine a theater gel with a white LED. There are some very subtle colors available from, say, Roscolux, and they offer a nice color-swatch book for free. The light pattern of most white LEDs I've seen have a center that differs in color from the rest of the light output. It, too, would have to be integrated (diffused) somehow.

http://www.rosco.com/us/filters/roscolux.asp

I keep thinking: Maybe the best thing would be to buy/scrounge a cheap TV, make it produce a solid, decently-bright raster, then calibrate it. It would help to have some *area* of standard to compare white with, and that might do the trick. You'd have to warm it up a bit first, but who cares?

My question then becomes: Do I have a friend or relative with a junker TV they'll part with? How about yard sales?

After doing a bit more poking around it seems as if 6500K (or so-called "full-spectrum" or "daylight") bulbs aren't that difficult to find. The key though seems to be finding them in a convenient size/wattage, and with a high enough CRI for our purposes (namely CRT calibration). Here's a nice succinct explanation of CRI btw from Keohi.com (http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/accessories/backlighting.html)The lamp should be rated at 6500 Degrees Kelvin with as high a C.R.I. rating as possible. (Color Rendering Index refers to how well a light source will "render" an object familiar. The rating is scaled from 0 to 100 with outside "daylight" being 100) The lamp used should have a rating of at least 90 CRI.Keohi also mentions a couple other possible places to look for such bulbs. 6500k lights seem to be popular with aquarium and terrarium buffs as well, so pet & plant supply shops, in addition to home & lighting and specialty bulb shops, might be another place to try.

Ken, you have been busy with responses today………a lot of good information.

As far as 6500K lights, if you can get close, you will probably do OK. This is just an option to get close. Just watch out for light bouncing off the walls. I did a calibration on a Sony LCD RP and the room had a creamy yellow on the walls. When the sun got in, the color analyzer jumped minus blue. It made calibration difficult.

Understood, Glen.I think there is something to be said for getting as close to ~6500k as possible for the best shadow detail.This is pretty much exactly what I meant to say btw. What I mean/meant by this is simply that the closer the greys (and blacks) are on your TV to 6500K (or to be more precise, D65), the better the color differentiation generally should be in darker areas of the image, making details in the "shadows" easier to discern.

If you asked me why that's the case, then I'd probably be gettin a bit out of my depth, but I would take a stab and say that it may be because D65 is the color temperature/space the video content was designed for, and it may also be the native color temperature/space on the TV.

I may be wrong about this, but I suspect that arbitrarily adjusting the TV to other color temperatures would not give you the same result, and be sort of like looking at shadows through a colored/muddied haze (as billmail1's post sort of indicates). YMMV though.

Once the greyscale is adjusted to ~D65, then using backlighting or ambient light of approximately the same temperature may also help to improve the discernment of the shadow detail as well. Most 6500K bulbs are fluorescent though, and the flicker on fluorescent lights tends to give me a headache. (Dimmers have the same effect on me.) And I'm not sure if "flicker-free" fluorescents are totally free of flicker either.

The one key here is the color of white/gray/black is the foundation for all colors. When calibrated, R, G & B guns are set with their minimum and maximum.

A low IRE Red field would have a signal on R and none on G & B. If the black color temperature is off, at low IRE, say a little too blue, then there would also be a little additional blue in the Red, diminishing as IRE increases. Same with Magenta, there would still be too much blue until blue DRV takes over.

On the higher IRE side, if the DRV is set a little too blue, the RGB primaries would be close in color, but any color with blue in it would have just a little too much blue.

I hope this makes sense on how the calibration affects the generation of other colors. You can still have an accurate color decoder setting and an error in the color being displayed. Point being, you can calibrate to 9300K with an accurate decoder setting and Magenta will not be NTSC magenta.

Gents, would GREATLY appreciate your imput on this procedure, tell me what I am missing.

I've decided to re-visit my grayscale settings and took a more traditional approach.

1) Put 0-100 ire ramp.
Set color and brightness to 0.
Reduce all CUTS to 0.
Reduce RDRV & BDRV to 0.
GRDV left untouched.
Set RGBS-6 (yellow) and increase RDRV until yellow. Noting where "orange"
diminishes and "lime" begins, finding a value in between.
RGBS-7, increase BDRV until high ire's look gray, white.
Record values, not writing them yet.

2) Return brightness to normal.
Return GCUT to original value.
Reduce contrast to 0.
Reduce all DRV's to 0.
Reduce RCUT & BCUT to 0.
Again, set RGBS-6 and increase RCUT to achieve yellow as described above in
step 1.
RGBS-7, increase BCUT to achieve gray. (This is for me difficult to judge)

3) Return contrast to normal.
Increase DRV parameters as recorded in step 1.
Check contrast and brightness with pluge.
Return color to normal.
Write.

Now, in my mind's eye, I have set 100 ire - 50 ire neutral, using the DRV's with no influence from the CUTS. And also, set 0-50 to neutral using the CUTS with no influence from the DRV's.

If it's a "twiddling" experiment for a rainy day, please try it. And I as I said earlier, I would greatly appreciate your imput on this procedure.

Forgive me if I'm vague, I've been riding in a car for the past 8 hours. :o

Gents, would GREATLY appreciate your imput on this procedure, tell me what I am missing.
No comment!

Gee, thanks Glen !!!

How do you know you have the right color of yellow? What is your reference?

We all understand that 6500K is the result of the proper balance of RGB. Cut for low IRE and DRV for High IRE and there is almost always interaction between the two.

In your method, for example, if you are a little off on yellow, say plus red, then when you try to set white, you would generally end up minus green (plus blue to compensate for plus red = minus green).

There is no way to properly set color temp without a measuring device. You can use a color analyzer or an optical comparator. An optical comparator may be direct reference to clouds, an actual 6500K optical comparator (purchased or home made) or even a B&W TV with D65 phosphor (I have a Sony PVM-96). Some B&W monitors have 5400K and 9300K phosphor, so be careful.

loadams,

I dunno. I thought I had this pretty well figured out until Glen and Ken got me all confused again ;) so I'm gonna start over with a 6500K reference and see how that works.

What I'll be using for comparison is a 6500K fluorescent "daylight" bulb reflected off neutral white and maybe also neutral grey surfaces. The good news is that 6500K lights don't seem quite as difficult to find as I thought. The only place I had a chance to check today was Wallie-world, but they had some that seemed right in the neighborhood of what I was after-- 6500K "Sunlight" screw-in fluorescent bulbs made by Lights of America rated at 82 - 88 CRI. Those may do fine if I can't find anything better at home supply, lighting stores or elsewhere.

Ken and Glen,

I've learned a ton from this thread. Thanks for all your contributions.

-Reagan

[QUOTE=GlenC]How do you know you have the right color of yellow? What is your reference?

We all understand that 6500K is the result of the proper balance of RGB. Cut for low IRE and DRV for High IRE and there is almost always interaction between the two.

Understand that, good point. I don't. This procedure is "eyeballing", just as all of us will do without equipment. However, in the beginning, using my homemade optical comparator, using a reference white (computer monitor @6500 at work) and Photoshop, measuring white(255-255-255), red(255-0-0), green(0-255-0), blue(0-0-255), magenta(255-0-255), and yellow(255-255-0) @ 100,90, and 20 and recording those values to transfer. Leaving GDRV alone(which the values from the monitor where VERY close) and dial in RDRV, I should have my "predicted" value for yellow. Now with RDRV set, I can use the "predicted" values for BDRV using magenta. Cycling thru RGBS and measuring for each screen and comparing their values with their "predicted" values comes close, but not perfect.

I've used the equation , written by a well known author of a well known calibration disc, to find my predicted values from reference values. AND YES, I have to give credit to UMR of this forum for dues on his eyeballing method. ;)

The interaction is where I want to learn between the two. My whites "look" white, my dark grays "look" dark gray, it's the 40-70 ire's that have a cyan tint to them. As you have stated in an earlier thread, I want to learn where one gun cuts off and it's respective partner takes over. Probably more than I could comprehend or you would even indulge, but I should have been more clear in my first post.

Glen, you have brought some interesting points to light. I will do some more reading.

ADU, going to make the rounds today at the local depots. May go your route soon. Thanks.

If you find any other 6500K bulbs, especially with a higher CRI than the Walmart bulbs, please give a shout. Hopefully I'll have a chance to poke around a few more home and lighting shops and maybe a petstore before the weekend to see what they have. Full-spectrum 6500K lights seem to be popular with better-living/home & garden and light-therapy enthusiasts as well.

The interaction is where I want to learn between the two. My whites "look" white, my dark grays "look" dark gray, it's the 40-70 ire's that have a cyan tint to them. As you have stated in an earlier thread, I want to learn where one gun cuts off and it's respective partner takes over. Probably more than I could comprehend or you would even indulge, but I should have been more clear in my first post.
OK, now think about what you just wrote (BTW, you left out Cyan (0-255-255)). If Cyan is Green and Blue and you are seeing Cyan in your gray scale, then what’s the problem? ? ? ? ? ? Simple, you are minus red, right? If you add a little Red with the RCUT, you might start to see some of the 40 IRE Cyan tint go away. If you then add a little RDRV, you should see a change in the 70 IRE and down to where they interact. This error you are seeing is showing where "you" are able to see the most error in color, "you" think white is white, but the error at 70 IRE is surely carrying through to 100 IRE same with 40 IRE to 0 IRE.

You can experiment, change RDRV only and see how far down it changes the color, it may be visible at 40 IRE. If 40 IRE can be corrected with RDRV and 70 IRE doesn’t go plus RED, then the interaction between CUT and DRV is at or below 40 IRE.

Thanks Glen, I'll give it a try tonight. Guess I missed about cyan for measurement, thought once I dialed in yellow with RDRV and dialed in blue with magenta there was no need. I'm wrong on that one. Will re-visit that one also tonight. Thanks again.

ADU, will look and report back.. Today's outing was on hold, waiting on contractors. :mad:

loadams,

What I'll be using for comparison is a 6500K fluorescent "daylight" bulb reflected off neutral white and maybe also neutral grey surfaces. The good news is that 6500K lights don't seem quite as difficult to find as I thought.I'm skeptical of these sources and the do-it-yourself standard, until tested, because:

(1) These are consumer-lighting bulbs, and I don't trust the quaity-control on the phosphor mix. All specifications such as "6500K" have a built-in tolerance, and I'm almost willing to bet real $$ that if you buy several of these bulbs, place them side-by-side outdoors on a semi-cloudy day, and light 'em up, you will se differences. Hell, I find two bulbs from the same manufacturer bought at different times (say, Lamps of America, same form factor) don't match! If the product description claims "precision 6500K for color matching," well, there's something to be optimistic about, at least.

(2) What would you use as a reflector? All white paper of any quality has ultraviolet-conversion dyes that make them excessively blue. Chemically-untreated paper isn't white, either. I guess I would consider pigments such as titanium-dioxide or zinc oxide, or maybe some tempura whites; but tinges of yellow or some warmish color from the paint's vehicle can screw that up, too. If I were attempting to create such a product, I would test it with a colorimeter to see if I have gotten close.

(3) Any gray made up from dyes will selectively fade with time and change color; gray matte-board is like this. Only pigments are stable. A gray made from lampblack (carbon) and zinc or titanium oxides would be reasonably permanent, unless the vehicle (carrier) turns yellow with age. There are Krylon sprays that have UV-proofing qualities -- but they're very glossy.

There are so many ways that this home-brew color standard can be "contaminated" in the execution! You can always hold it up against the white-cloud standard to check for pink or green, at least.

Well, some may need to wait till November to see a cloud. The can be difficult at night too.

I still don’t see how you can get the TV into a position where you can directly compare the clouds and the TV screen. How do you compare 20 IRE to your clouds? The room needs to have low ambient light for 20 IRE without the color of the ambient/reflected light affecting color.

As for Grey and White, here is an option http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/tools1/card.jhtml?id=0.1.4.10.8.4&lc=en
When lit with a 6500K (or close) light and depending on the amount of light, can directly be compared to different IRE levels of the screen. In a dark room, comparison to 20 or 30 IRE is possible. With brighter light, the higher IRE can be compared.

My whites "look" white, my dark grays "look" dark gray, it's the 40-70 ire's that have a cyan tint to them.Wait! Stop right there. You need to figuire out why that could be true, no matter *how* you arrived at that result.

If the mid-tones (40-70 IRE) have a cyan tint, and you're *sure* that the darkest tones (that actually are useful to making up a picture) are really neutral, then the intrinsic response curve (gamma) of the CRT or its drive circuitry for the RED gun does not match the curves of the other guns. The straightforward assumption made during calibration, with instruments or not, is that the curves match. For any one TV, you have no control over them.

(Please be sure first: If you have gotten away from the TV for a few moments to get another beer, say, in an evening-lighted house, the TV *will* look cyan! Your eyes have changed and will have to readjust.)

You can fudge a grayscale nonlinearity it in two ways:

(1) Ignore the almost-black color. You would tweak RCUT to make a realistic b/w picture (Color=OFF) look neutral overall, with whites and mid-tones matching. If you peer into the deepest shadows or display a really dark scene, and things look a little reddish, oh well . . . that is a good compromise because in practice your eye will not see it. If you fanatically adjust the near-blacks for perfection in a dark room, using test patterns, matching your whites perfectly, and then your mid-tones are cynaish or bluish or whatever (been there!), you *will* have screwed-up colors on your picture when you turn the color back up. The eye is very sensitive to mid-tone color! I would accept the compromise near-blacks.

(2) If the midtones are really tinted, you could try fudging one or two of the GAMx controls up one notch. My mid-tones tend a bit yellow when near-black and whites perfectly match. So I first tried knocking GAMB up one point for the GAMM=0 setting (Pro mode). That raised the mid-tone blue, leaving dark and brilliant colors alone. But on my set, it turned out to be a bit of over-correction; I have since made the GAMx settings the same, and I have reconsidered how I judge grayscale linearity, now using *real-world* video sources for judging. *That* has made me happy with the results! Selectively fudging gamma is a legitimate way to cancel out a significant nuisance-nonlinearity in one of the color-drive channels or CRT guns. I hope the need for this is rare.

************
OTHER COMMENTS: When judging b/w-image color tints by eye, several natural "bugs" get in the way. First, the eye color-fatigues quickly, and staring at the screen must be avoided -- or at least don't fixate. Move your eyes around fairly actively. Second, judging the tint of a bright white is very difficult, especially when the eye has become dim-light adapted. The dazzling white can appear reddish when it is not! One of the advantages of using midday clouds is that they are very bright themselves, and after looking at them, a glance at your screen reveals a color error pretty obviously. It's the back-and-forth that works.

My experience has now been that, when you have clean, decent whites, that's how they look watching your favorite broadcasts and DVDs, too. If the whites look *right,* check that grayscale again by turning off Color. If that looks screwed up, it is! Fix the gray scale to agree with the white. I have found consistently that, given the generous amount of bright-white that makes up many commercials on broadcast TV, especially those 4:3 pillarboxed ones on HD broadcast, you might get the impression fairly quickly that, well, they look a little pink or that they are a little "cold" relative to the rest of the picture. They probably are. So fix *that.*

A very effective method for trying out new white/grayscale settings is to mock them up first using the Warm and/or Cool settings. Remember, these are *offsets* that don't screw up your original Neutral settings. Use 2170P-1/ #14-19 to set offsets you'd like to try, remembering that 31 = no effect.

Example: You're not quite sure you've got white quite right -- looks a little blue to you. So go into service mode, set the user menu to Warm (or Cool, doesn't matter), go to 2170P-1 #14, and set everything from RDOF to BCOF to 31. (That's the same as Neutral.) Now decrease #16/BDOF from 31 to 30, and WRITE. While you're at it, you could also set the other "color temp" preset for a second experiment. Maybe decrease BDOF from 31 to 29 for a larger anti-blue change. Just set the user menu to Cool, and make the same settings as above, but BDOF will be 29. WRITE the result.

Now leave service mode, and go back to watching TV with the menu at Neutral. Still think it's too blue? Try out your new settings by switching to Warm or Cool. Screwed up? Well, your original settings for Neutral are still there, and you can try something else for Warm and Cool.

Well, some may need to wait till November to see a cloud. The can be difficult at night too.I understand this is a problem for certain areas of the US. And in LA, one can't be sure *what* color the clouds are! (Lived there once. West side.) :)
I still don’t see how you can get the TV into a position where you can directly compare the clouds and the TV screen.I turn the TV about 45º, open the front door, and can easily position myself so I can look out of the front door at the sky and then back at the TV. I understand this will be very difficult for some folks. It's just that Nature gave us such a nice reference standard floating up there! So I use it.How do you compare 20 IRE to your clouds?No immediate need. After getting white nearly right, I even out the grayscale on its own: It is its own standard. I can then re-check against the outdoor view. If I have moved everything toward blue, say, I can subtract one point of blue from BCUT and BDRV and re-check. Of course, there's some back and forth. "My" clouds? Oh, please! I wish.The room needs to have low ambient light for 20 IRE without the color of the ambient/reflected light affecting color.So I draw the drapes and close the front door. I have to avoid the leakage of *green* from the trees and bushes just outside the windows, so I tend to tweak grayscale in the evening. I'm not under any pressure to do all of this in one go, as if I were visiting a client's home. For that, I would have a colorimeter, no question!

Glen, there an important question implicit in the above, which you can answer with your colorimeter:

Starting with a perfect grayscale and white point, does adding, say, two points to RDRV *and* two points to RCUT slide the whole red curve evenly upward? I.e. do the colors still *track* even though one of them is now displaced upward (red)? It would be good to know this because one could then make a small white-balance adjustment by adding or subtracting the *same* value from xDRV and XCUT without affecting grayscale linearity -- or at least still be reasonably close. (But maybe you don't have one of these late 34XBR960 or XS955-CRT sets.)

Glen, there an important question implicit in the above, which you can answer with your colorimeter:

Starting with a perfect grayscale and white point, does adding, say, two points to RDRV *and* two points to RCUT slide the whole red curve evenly upward? I.e. do the colors still *track* even though one of them is now displaced upward (red)? It would be good to know this because one could then make a small white-balance adjustment by adding or subtracting the *same* value from xDRV and XCUT without affecting grayscale linearity -- or at least still be reasonably close. (But maybe you don't have one of these late 34XBR960 or XS955-CRT sets.)

Ken, I do not have one of these TVs. When I do a calibration, I always need to go back and forth with CUT and DRV. A change in CUT affects DRV a little and a change in DRV can affect CUT. When I have finished with the settings, I exit SM and capture readings from 10 IRE to 100 IRE and look at the x/y data to see the actual trend. I may then go back into the SM and tweak CUT or DRV by 1 or 2 if needed to get the overall gray scale more accurate. Sometimes, I have seen where a larger change in CUT (3, 4, 5, etc.) may need an opposite change in DRV by a few. Like +5 on RCUT and –2 on RDRV. I hope this helps.

If you find any other 6500K bulbs, especially with a higher CRI than the Walmart bulbs, please give a shout. Hopefully I'll have a chance to poke around a few more home and lighting shops and maybe a petstore before the weekend to see what they have. Full-spectrum 6500K lights seem to be popular with better-living/home & garden and light-therapy enthusiasts as well.
A small pocket light like http://www.preparedness.com/pofllafl.html with a F4T5/D bulb might work fine.

Gents, would GREATLY appreciate your imput on this procedure, tell me what I am missing.Without actually trying it out, I would have trouble just analyzing it theoretically. And I *don't* want to mess with my existing TV's settings just now! Off the top, I think some assumptions are likely off-base:

-- That reducing anything in service mode to zero means it's actually at zero. You can't verify this. For example, you can set user Color to zero ("Min"), and it really is: you can see that it is. But those "hidden" zeroes, if they play any part in your theoretical method, may not exist.

-- "Seeing" when something is gray, yellow, white, or just tuirning green would be a nightmare of fighting the eye/mind's ability to compensate -- like trying to judge color thru the eyepiece of a video camera with auto-white-balance turned on. The eye can perceive very small differences in color when areas of color are juxtaposed, as it can differences in brightness -- we're evolved to do that! But absolutes are compensated for to an unpredictable degree -- like the color of a natural illuminant, the sun, at different times of the day.

Your method is like "starting over, clean." It seems to require more work than a good first approximation with a known standard would yield. Comparing with a cloudy day, I saw that my TV was much too blue, with a touch of green. So the first thing I did was jack red a lot and reduce blue a bit. But maybe this was easy for me, as I know my color theory from years of color-darkroom work, consulting for graphic artists, and diddling in Photoshop.

So, sorry, I don't really want to try to verify the details of your method. My bottom line would, of course, be: If you did this, and what you end up seeing is neutral whites that aren't way off-base, *and* a linear grayscale (b/w pictures are color-free), you have arrived! Precisely calibrate your white point to 6500K if you wish, but you should be able to see when results are acceptable.

I would add: If you set the xCUT parameters so you have a good black level with SBRT at 31 and the Brightness slider at 31, you are probably right in he middle of Sony's intended range. SBRT interacts with all of the xCUT settings, of course, acting like a "pedestal" for all of them, and Brightness varies *that.*

Also, the xDRV controls are uniformly modified by the Picture slider--call it a common video-gain control. My TV seemed too dim with Picture at 31, so the first thing I did was increase the *average* setting of the three xDRV controls until I was satisfied. Now HD seems perfect at 31, DVD a little higher, and the relatively dimmer SD broadcasts require Picture to be near 40. Auto-brightness limiting comes into play for those almost all-white screens of many commercials and for some bright animated shows.

Current settings for my 36XS955:
SBRT---RDRV-GDRV-BDRV---RCUT-GCUT-BCUT = 31---41-27-20---51-20-15 [rev 7.22.05]
with offsets in 2170P-3/UBOF of 0 to 4, equalizing the inputs and tuner. (The out-of-the-box RDRV was in the low 30s. Rediculous!)

Okay.......

Glen, by your instructions, after diddling, I raised RCUT 3 clicks and RDRV 2 clicks. 40 & 50 ire windows look much better, as do 60 and 70 windows. Crossed gray scale ramp yields better uniformity. After I found where I wanted to go with this, I reverted back to the old values for comparison. Back and forth and such, new RDRV and RCUT values look much better. I do now see where the interaction begins and ends. It only took 2 clicks of RDRV to begin to see the cyan tint disappear from 70 ire without compromising 100 ire. Better results, and yes, whites do "look" better. I know it's not perfect, but now better. Thanks.

Ken, understand your position. I thought as long as we where "twiddling" forum hobbyists, it was something to do. Tried the GAMR curve with my old settings, will keep that in mind for future reference.

And yes, I find it helpful never to look directly at the screen when calibrating grayscale and color decoder. I rotate my eyes around the cabinet of the tv.

I'm skeptical of these sources and the do-it-yourself standard, until tested, because...

...There are so many ways that this home-brew color standard can be "contaminated" in the execution! You can always hold it up against the white-cloud standard to check for pink or green, at least.Understood Ken. That's one reason I'm trying to find some other sample 6500K lights with higher CRIs, to see if there's any discernable difference between them. We're on the same page re color contamination as well.

A color measuring instrument is undoubtedly the most reliable approach, but this method is probably not that different than tools professional photographers and cinematographers use to judge their imagery. It's such an obvious solution in fact, I'm surprised it didn't occur to me sooner because I've had some level of awareness of the 6500K fluorescent lights for quite awhile. Never considered using them as a calibration aid though til the subject of LEDs came up. I agree with you though that until this approach is confirmed by instrument (or cloud) that it should be regarded as "experimental".

A small pocket light like http://www.preparedness.com/pofllafl.html with a F4T5/D bulb might work fine.So basically a miniature portable 6500K flourescent light. Not bad, Glen. My only hesitation on something like this is the slightly higher price (since this is still experimental) and perhaps the 76 CRI rating on the bulb. If possible, I'd like to start with something around a CRI of 90 or higher for comparison. The size and portability certainly look convenient though. And something like that might work just dandy. I wonder if there are other compact "daylight" lights like this that professional photographers might use to look at prints?

Quick question: Is there a way to exit the service menu without turning the TV off?

Thanks,
Reagan

Is there a way to exit the service menu without turning the TV off?Nope, not that I have found. And Sony doesn't list anything in the service manual, either.

Dunno if this'll help any, but if you're experimenting with different values and just want to recall the settings last written to memory, that can be done with 0 - Enter. So you don't have to keep turning the TV off just to get back to that stage.

This command is not recommended for butterfingers though, because the JUMP, 7 & 9 keys are all in the same vicinity and if you accidentally hit those instead, you could end up in some deep s***. You have been warned.

Kentech: can you go into more detail in the MIDE section of the 17 different values.

I'm very interested and will experiment with them later on today.I will use actual images and video to see if there is any visible diference in PQ.

Kentech: can you go into more detail in the MIDE section of the 17 different values. I'm very interested and will experiment with them later on today.I will use actual images and video to see if there is any visible diference in PQ.Sure. But I've already done that in article #12, Post #41 in this thread. Attached is the text of the article plus a chart of the various codes and how you can experiment with them. Good Luck! In the weeks since I wrote this, I haven't changed my mind on any of it -- maybe tinkered a bit with specific edge-enhancement values, but nothing earth-shaking.

I already printed that chart a while back, just wanted to know if you knew any more discoveries that's all.

Did you use HQ images and video material to see of any differences?Off the top of your head what would you say is the most important to tinker with on that chart to give me the best PQ.

Now I've got a real problem. While working on grayscale in the service menu, I had a white field (Avia) up for a while (no longer than 8 minutes), and now I have a small green patch in the corner - screen burn. Bear in mind that my contrast was just over the midpoint. I thought I could get away with a solid white field a lot longer than 8 minutes given that I had already set contrast to a decent level (definitely not torch mode), but evidently not. The good news is that it is a small patch in the corner and is only easily viewed when that part of the screen is bright, but it's not good. Is there any hope that it will go away over time?

Question for Glen. I want to try using a photo grey card to set my grayscale. What intensity of white should I use (100ire, 90ire, etc.) when trying to get the whiteness of the screen to match the whiteness of the white side of the card?

Finally, Ken, thanks for the answer on exiting the service menu.

-Reagan

Full white screens do not cause spot burns on the screen.

For calibration, 70 IRE to 80 IRE works well for xDRV and 20 IRE to 30 IRE works well for xCUT. The level of light should be adjusted so the card has about the same luminance as the screen. Depending on the luminance of your 6500K light source, the gray side of the card might match the 70 IRE screen. Remember you are trying to see any minute “color” difference in the two. If the screen looks slightly red, then reduce RDRV/CUT as needed. If you remember the CIE Chromaticity chart in post #97, you will note that Red moves horizontally, Green moves vertically and Blue moves diagonally. If you can imagine D65 as the center and 3 lines from there to the 3 phosphor colors (a clock at 3h:00m:40s). This means, if you add blue, you are doing the same as a little minus Red and Green. You will need to ping-pong between high and low IRE until both are at the desired temp. You will also need to put up a ramp or stair step pattern to check the entire range. If any step looks off, go back and adjust more.

One reason many people choose to have this done by an ISF Calibrator is that within a few hours, they can be done with it and sit back and enjoy watching their investment. I know that most of you, experimenting with this, have spent enough time that they could have watched a dozen movies. I know, when I decide to tweak or recalibrate my own TV, I may spend 4-6 hours working on it, and I have done it more than once.

Full white screens do not cause spot burns on the screen.No, but two other things are likely to happen: ("Burn" probably isn't the right word.)

(1) There is a brightness limiter in the video-signal chain that works on the *average* brightness of the screen. Example: On the DVE DVD, there is a series of increasing full-screen grays, right up to 100%. But your Sony XBR or XS-CRT TV won't get any brighter on the last two or three patterns. Only a much smaller area will display a 100% (white) input as brilliant white. The problem? Who knows where this modification of the video signal takes place? I would guess it's late in the chain, but is it before or after the xCUT and xDRV controls? So I would calibrate on only a small white block somewhere on the tube face.

And where you place this block matters because no place on the tube face is guaranteed to be perfect in purity. Which brings up what is likely Reagan's problem. . .

(2) High-brightness images, especially test patterns, cause slight misalignment or warping of the aperture-grille wires, and there's no predicting the pattern. If I put up a bright-white screen or just a b/w movie with a big sky, green-cyan patches develop at the lower-right edge and also just left of center. If I change, say, from 100% to 20% gray full-screen, they're still visible for a few seconds, but fade away. The sudden appearance of a 50% gray pattern on the screen shows almost no color patches at all, and normal TV viewing rarely reveals these problems.

I have read -- and a Sony tech has explained -- roughly the same thing: mix together Big Tube, super-fine phosphor pitch, and bright image, and you are pushing the limits of current manufacturing technology to hold everything in place through such large temperature swings.

Some day I'll examine the left-of-center purity issue, but if Glen were calibrating my TV I would have to specify *where* I want the calibrator stuck to the screen and caution him about the heating and brightness-limiting issues, in case he wasn't familiar with them for this TV.

For Reagan: Some have said that grille-warping can be permament. I can't say; my issues were there from Day One. If the CRT has truly changed in a way you can't adjust away, have it declared defective and replaced. Some have posted about such a problem and have had their tubes successfully replaced by Sony. (I think the 40" monster had *big* issues like this.) Or you may be able to adjust it away with the LANDING settings. Maybe this is just a break-in issue, not a damage issue, and if you make it go away with a readjustment of the first 6 codes in LANDING, it will be stable form now on -- or at least predictable.

Write down everything first for all LANDING settings, then set LT thru RB (the corners) to 127. Try every combination of nos. 4, 5, and 6 (EWSP thru TESW), and maybe 8 and 9 too, to get the most-even screen for NOT a bright white but something more reasonable, like 40-50 IRE. Then adjust 0 thru 3 for the four corners (left-top, left-bottom, etc.). Be sure to do this with the TV in its normal viewing alignment (north, east, etc.). Do NOT stare at the screen, but keep your eyes moving, as they quickly accommodate to any color unevenness, and you'll think the colors have evened out, when they haven't.

Fair warning, Glen, if you put up a bright stair-step pattern or anything like it on *this* TV, it's color will drift within a few seconds. I confirm my color-setup judgements based on the very transient display of a pattern or on constantly-moving real B/W images, which tend not to heat the grille in any one place to a significant degree.

With a CRT device, direct view, rear projection and front projection, they need to be calibrated in the center of the screen. Because these are 3-gun devices, all three colors cannot emanate from the same point. Green is in the center flanked by Red and Blue. One side of the screen will favor red and the other blue. They all do it. On the higher end of the scale, my Marquee projector has R, G & B zone color gain controls to compensate for this and projection angles.

I have seen the white clipping you are talking about, while calibrating a 960. I noticed it in the gamma graph noticing that after 70 IRE the curve started to flatten. Reducing the contrast helped normalize the curve. This was noticed with the white window patterns, not full fields. While this TV is capable of higher lumens, it is only at the sacrifice of picture quality. Having contrast set too high can also be very fatiguing to watch in low ambient lighting situations. A good check for contrast setting is to closely look for the scan-lines and set contrast just below the point they start to change width. This is easiest on a 480i signal.

As I have stated before, I set the color temp, then review the temperature readings by x/y coordinates for 10 IRE to 100 IRE using window test patterns. Once I am satisfied, I cycle through numerous test patterns verifying uniformity, none are really displayed for more than a few seconds.

I have seen the white clipping you are talking about, while calibrating a 960. I noticed it in the gamma graph noticing that after 70 IRE the curve started to flatten.It's not white clipping, since a small portion of the screen can reach 100% (white) easily. Further, it isn't the whites that are clipped; rather it is the whole picture that is reduced in "contrast," as if you have turned down the Picture slider. The relative tonalities are preserved. When 100% is reduced to 70, 50 is reduced to 35, etc.

There *is* real white clipping available in service mode, but in Pro mode it is set to off. White clipping is the limiting of brightness wherever it occurs and for whatever area, even small specular highlights. There is also a dynamic brightness/contrast (pick your term) system in these sets, active in Vivid and Standard, off in Pro, also controllable in service mode.

The brightness-response curve of these sets simply cannot be measured with a full-screen brightness pattern because it improperly forces the CRT beam-current limiter to activate (which is what I think it really is). Bottom line: You get a "clipped" curve if the pattern is full-screen, but an accurate curve if only a small white/gray box is used.

If you turned down the brightness on that 960 to keep out of the beam-current limiter's domain, you set up the set much too dim, much dimmer than it is capable of with good focus and color fidelity on real-world video. Excepting a few commercials, animations, and rare snow shots, real-world programming rarely hits the limiter, and you shouldn't attempt to avoid it in calibration. It also activates so quickly, the viewer is generally unaware of its action. Just let it do its work when it must to protect the CRT. Set up the video response as if it's not there.

Technicalities again……crushing, clipping, roll-off, whatever, I should have written a paragraph describing the reduction in the lumen delta from one IRE step to the next to avoid using a “wrong label”.

When you have “Picture/Contrast” set too high, the TV starts to crush the whites (I mean reduce the difference in lumens from one step to the next). The difference in lumens from 80 IRE to 81 IRE to 82 IRE …….to 100 IRE for each step falls off from the trend. What I mean is, when the gamma is approx 2.1 from 10 IRE to 70 IRE then falls to 1.8 @ 80 IRE and 1.6 @ 90 IRE, contrast (not brightness) is too high. Clipping of whites starts when lumen delta between 90 IRE and 100 IRE decreases from the average. Clipping can be as severe as not being able to distinguish any lumen difference between 80, 90 & 100 IRE. TVs with different gamma curves will have different steps/spacing between IRE levels. Reducing contrast to the point of achieving a uniform gamma curve is not setting it “too dim” (you are not reading all I wrote, again. This is being done with a “WINDOW” pattern not a full screen.), it is just properly setting it.

It's not white clipping, since a small portion of the screen can reach 100% (white) easily. Further, it isn't the whites that are clipped; rather it is the whole picture that is reduced in "contrast," as if you have turned down the Picture slider. The relative tonalities are preserved. When 100% is reduced to 70, 50 is reduced to 35, etc.
(edited)
What are you talking about? The input signal has not changed. A 100% signal is a 100% signal or a 100 IRE signal, sure all input devices may have a slightly different voltage than the absolute standard, but it is still sending its’ 100%/IRE signal. When you reduce the lumens, you are not changing the signal or IRE level. There is no standard for that says, 100%/IRE = x lumens. Every TV on the planet has a different lumen level for a 100 IRE signal.

All displays with a point light source (CRT DV F/R projection, LCD, DLP, LcoS etc. F/R projection) have more lumens in the center of the screen. I haven’t measured the 960, but it wouldn’t surprise me to see a 200% difference or more from the center to the corners. By this I mean, if you have 55 ft-lamberts in the center of a white field, you may only have 27.5 ft-lamberts or less in the corners. The 27.5 ft-lamberts in the corners may be the same as a 70 IRE field is in the center. This has nothing to do with any kind of internal limiting. Additionally, as I recall, one of the main differences in the different modes for luminance is the gamma curve selected for each.

As you increase contrast, you start stretching the curve upward. All TVs have a maximum lumen output and it will not be the same on all TVs, even those of the same model number. There are just electronic variances. All TVs have a maximum point where you start to loose scan-line detail and rarely is it where the maximum lumen output is. Many TVs have an adjustable threshold so you can’t over drive contrast.

Ken, you personally, may choose to over drive your contrast a little, that is your prerogative, however to properly calibrate a display, to industry standards/guidelines, that would not be the right choice. High lumens with high contrast in a dimly lit room can be very uncomfortable to watch.

Glen and Ken,

Thanks for the advice. My Sony (HS 420) is over a year old (I bought the first one that showed up around here), so there's no returning it. I really do appreciate the advice. And Glen, regarding your point about an ISF calibration, I'd gladly do it if you're ever in the area. The problem is that no one is in my area. The closest ones are in Nashville and at least one of them will only do it for TVs sold in their store.

I'll be putting your recommendations to good use.

Thanks again,
Reagan

What are you talking about?I have re-edited my posts above to eliminate the term "IRE." I used it above in the sense "the brightness on-screen that corresponds to" or "what 50 IRE should look like," when I know it should strictly refer only to a specific input voltage. I guess I thought the context made it plain.

Since "IRE" and "input voltages" are probably technobabble to most readers, I'll try to avoid those terms; instead I'll say "a video level that should produce 50% on-screen," which is really what I mean, rather than "50IRE." The distinction I am trying to make is between what an *ideal* TV should display (or what one thinks it's displaying) and what actually happens.

From Reagan's post, it seems he is using full-screen patterns when he refers to "solid white field." And so I wanted to make the point, at the very least, that this TV chassis, in whatever its manifestation, can't handle that and has an excellent self-protection mechanism that works on the *average* brightness of the entire screen.

Please re-read my edited posts above, and you may wish to alter yours a bit, too.

you personally, may choose to over drive your contrast a little, that is your prerogative, however to properly calibrate a display, to industry standards/guidelines, that would not be the right choice.I understand guidelines for things such as white point = 6500K. But how can there be an "industry standard" for screen brightness when the choice should be made at the time and conditions of viewing based on room illumination and source material? (Assuming that for *my* TV, I am not overdriving the video channel so whites are crushed. BTW, for this TV chassis, that limit seems very much higher than I have ever witnessed, even momentarily.) High lumens with high contrast in a dimly lit room can be very uncomfortable to watch.Well, duh. So you turn down the Picture control. The human should control the TV, and not the other way around, no?

Since "white-clip" is an issue with these CRT TVs, I will define my terms I'll use as I write about this. There seem to be three different mechanisms in this series of CRT-TVs by which brightness of white is *intentionally* limited. Fortunately two of these (the most obnoxious) are set to *no effect* for the Pro mode, but there is that overall brightness limiter for which there seem to be no controls in service mode (just as well, for the protection of the tube).

(1) "Clipping" is an engineering term, well-defined. If you snip (clip) off the tops of an electrical signal where it goes very high, *that* is clipping. It happens in an audio amplifier when the instantaneous voltage demanded of it exceeds the available power voltage, and the waveform is neatly "clipped" at the tops of the waveform. In a video-processing chain, you would see evidence of it with a grayscale test pattern: the "whites" all run together. The THX setup patterns on "Monsters, Inc" and other DVDs will reveal it. On a football player's white helmet, the sunlight reflections won't be visible at all; the helmet is just a white blob. Some TVs and DVD players won't display "blacker than black," either, which is effectively black clipping. Not a problem with this Sony series.

Clipping can be "soft" so the limit is reached more gently, rather than a brick wall. This could be true of inadequately-designed video amplifiers in a TV, causing poor separation of highlights, rather than just cutting them off. Bright objects lose their texture, and light-colored faces become pasty. Very ugly! (The informal term "white crush" describes all of these visual effects.) Perhaps this is a characteristic of these Sony TVs if you crank up brightness far enough, but I haven't found a point where this happens; over an immense picture-brightness range, highlight contrast seems correct in context -- a far cry from lower-class TVs *and* from Sony's models from 10-20 years ago.

Important: Clipping is *instantaneous* right where the scanning beam happens to be at that instant. The pattern/picture being displayed has no bearing on it, except in its intensity at that point on the screen.

I know for sure of at least one optional clipping setting in service mode: 2170P-2 #4/YLMT. If set to 3, it appears to have no discernable effect. As its value is reduced, extreme whites are clipped, as described above. The data charts show default=3, and my set was set to 3. So it's an unused "feature"; may it remain so.

(2) Overall brightness limiting is built-in, likely to protect the CRT and its associated high-voltage power supply from excessive current thrown at the screen. (Yes, the three electron beams streaming at the face of the tube constitute an electrical current.) I have to trust that Sony designers have determined a "safe" maximum value for this current. Too much current draw from the power supply, and the high voltage for the CRT will drop, causing ugly bloating and dimming of the picture. Heating of the CRT's aperture grille causes (usually temporary) warping and off-color blotches on the screen. The protection seems to be the last thing in the chain: You can crank up xDRV for each of the guns all you want, but there is an *average* for the whole screen that can't be exceeded.

You should *not* wish for this to go away. The action occurs so quickly that it is almost imperceptible, and the contrast-integrity of the picture is conserved: nothing is clipped. It's like an almost-instantaneous temporary decrease in the Picture-slider setting. If you are watching something that triggers it so it bothers you, such as a bright, animated kids show, turn down Picture until you don't see it. (Bet your kids won't see it!) Indeed, I am thankful that those bright-white commercials are dimmed!

When calibrating the TV, a small "window" of various levels of gray (NOT full screen) has to be displayed to guarantee that this protection device isn't inadvertently triggered.

(3) A slow-acting (over a few seconds) modification of the picture contrast and brightness (including black level) is offered by these sets as a processing *option,* controlled by service-mode codes 2170P-4/BLK thru DSBO. If BLK is set to 0, and the following three codes are set to 0-0-7, this effect is turned off completely, normal for Pro mode. The sudden appearance of a bright object will not depress the black level, and there will be no manipulation of the contrast. I tried to document this, as best I could, in article #06, post #7 in this thread. I should think that no video perfectionist wants any part of this! It is normally selectively in effect for all but Pro mode. I've killed it for *all* modes.

Because these are 3-gun devices, all three colors cannot emanate from the same point. Green is in the center flanked by Red and Blue. One side of the screen will favor red and the other blue.This seems quite relevant for projection systems. But in my years of calibrating or just informally setting up many aperture-grille CRT monitors from Sony and Mitsubishi, plus my own several inline-RGB CRT sets, I have never observed this, no have my fussiest clients. Surely the *proportion* of the total distance from the three guns to the screen represented by their physical separation is much smaller than in a typical three-source rear-projection system.

Since my slight color-contamination blotch left of center does not continue to the edge, and there are a colony of magnets growing on the back of the tube, aligned with the blotch, I wonder if it's just a purity setup gone awry. (That's what a tech thought, but he warned me of the interactions of these magnets with convergence, and *that* seems really fine in that area.) I'm temped to accept it as-is for now.

There are “industry standards” for most anything. As far as it pertains to movies, there are some guidelines as it pertains to screen lumens and viewer comfort. This is addressed in most every theater in the country. When is the last time you went to the theater and came out with a headache because the picture was way too bright?

Ken, what you don’t seem to see is, the target goal of a calibration, ISF or not, is to achieve the optimum image for the viewing condition without compromise. Since all video displays are not perfect and do not calibrate perfectly we have to settle with what we get. The calibration settings are usually based on standards and the desired elimination of as many artifacts as possible. These standards may be; color temp = 6500K; gamma = 2.2 and the artifacts can be edge enhancement, blooming, color shift, crushing/clipping (black or white) room conditions, or anything that adversely affects picture quality.

When you choose to deviate from optimum settings that is your choice, but the goal/result of a complete ISF calibration should be to optimize for all viewing, including bright snow scenes, no matter how frequently or if they are watched.

If you set contrast to the point the scan-lines start to grow or blend together, you are starting to induce artifacts into the picture. Yes, you may want it to produce more lumens, but there is a resulting reduction in picture quality. For night viewing there will need to be different settings from Day viewing. If you have contrast set to the point of maximum lumens (without the loss of any detail or color shifting) and brightness set to see the dark detail in a lit room or daytime viewing condition, Contrast and Brightness controls will be set too high for proper night viewing. ISF calibrations try to include Day and Night viewing settings when available. The new TVs with the ISFccc (Custom Calibration Configuration) have separate Day and Night calibration modes available for each input.

There are “industry standards” for most anything.Sort of a Big Brother argument, wouldn't you say? I see the tone of your post as (simplified) (1) for any condition, there is only one *right* setting; (2) only an ISF tech knows what that is; (3) the user/owner of the TV should keep his bloody hands off the remote, as *we* have determined the "proper" brightness; (4) since, after all, the user is either too stupid or ignorant to adjust the brightness himself; and (5) having convinced folks of at least points 1-3, you sell them the service. And again when things change.

Many of the calibrations offered by ISF and other competent calibration are worth their weight in gold, white point and grayscale linearity being among them. But, aside from dogmatically insisting on it, you have never defended, for example, the notion that there is "one" correct (overall, picture) brightness. The ISF position seems to be oblivious to the vast variation in source material and that there are more viewing conditions than "day" and "night" and that the user can easily correct any deficiencies with the remote and the user menu. If the user does not perceive a problem that needs fixing wiith the remote, then what possible value could brightness calibration be, except its dubious distinction as a bragging point. My solution: teach the user how to be sensitive to the finer "perfectionist" points of video display and how to correctly adjust their TV after the *basics* have been set up to obvious standards. Even the most basic -- white point, grayscale, color decoding, black point -- can be well set up without spending big $$ on technical services.

Everything I post in this thread is designed to educate folks to the best of my ability so that *they* can control their TV, if they choose to do so. Information is power. The "do as you're told" undercurrent I see in threads discussing the ISF calibratiion business is antithetical to what I believe in, and so you'll find me unsympathetic. I am writing for folks who, like me, want to get involved making their own corrections to their TVs in service mode, or who want to learn more about what's possible, even if they're reluctant to try. Others? Well, read Q of Banditz' thread for a glowing account of what I would hope for from any tech, ISF or not, that gets anywhere near my TV!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=561596

I'd pay this guy just to rip all of the magnets off my tube and get purity and static convergence done right for once -- and do an initial white and grayscale setup, all at a fair price. Sorta depends on the guy doing it, right? That's what referrals are for.

If you set contrast to the point the scan-lines start to grow or blend together, you are starting to induce artifacts into the picture. Yes, you may want it to produce more lumens, but there is a resulting reduction in picture quality.But what (picture) brightness you can achieve with no *significant* decrease in quality depends on how the original focusing was accomplished. Fine scan-lines are not the goal, but a well-controlled spot size for the expected brightness range. (The spot should be a vertical oval in the center, changing to different-shaped ovals everywhere else.)

Articles 13a abd 13b describe how to accomplish decent focus, using Sony's own sequence of adjsutments. If the test pattern is bright enough (see article), the resulting focus holds over a vast brightness range. If the set is focused for low-brightness detail, the scanning spot will tend to "bloom" excessively in the brighter areas of the picture, smearing fine detail, such as tree branches against sky. Good focusing procedure results in very little image-quality compromise up to fairly high-brightness levels.

Note that most of the high-brightness bits in typical video scenes are not vast areas but small details, such as specular highlights, that add authenticity to a scene. Even if those small areas have smeared detail, it is of virtually no significance; the user can always judge for themselves, and turn Picture down if there's a problem. Otherwise those small bright bits make the video truly exciting and three-dimensional!

I see the tone of your post as (simplified) (1) for any condition, there is only one *right* setting; (2) only an ISF tech knows what that is; (3) the user/owner of the TV should keep his bloody hands off the remote, as *we* have determined the "proper" brightness; (4) since, after all, the user is either too stupid or ignorant to adjust the brightness himself; and (5) having convinced folks of at least points 1-3, you sell them the service. And again when things change.
How wrong and bias can you get?
There is an optimal/desired target
Only? NO, they should know what to look for and how to achieve it. It’s not rocket science, anyone can learn what to look for.
Of the millions of TV viewers, few can properly set the user controls. If they don’t understand or know what to look for, then not changing the controls may be good advice. Do you let your friends or neighbors cange your settings?
"Stupid" and "ignorant", is referring to others that may not understand or want to learn the adjustments and their affect is stupid and ignorant on your part.
Not wanting to learn, understand or deal with the time and effort to calibrate their own TV is the way many people are. Some, then choose to have it done by an ISF Calibrator, some don’t do anything and the majority have no idea that their TV picture can be improved. I have done calibrations where the customer tried Avia or DVE and just couldn’t get it right. They just didn’t understand what to look for and have never seen a calibrated or reference display. I show/teach them during the calibration.

Many of the calibrations offered by ISF and other competent calibration are worth their weight in gold, white point and grayscale linearity being among them. But, aside from dogmatically insisting on it, you have never defended, for example, the notion that there is "one" correct (overall, picture) brightness.You still haven’t got a grasp of the concept here. There are numerous settings that all interact with an optimal picture for the existing/targeted viewing conditions. What I am saying about the contrast setting and luminance is; there is a point where individual scan-lines start to loose their detail. It can be described as the line is starting to get fuzzy. At that point, contrast has gone too far. Sure you may get more light output, but you are loosing picture detail. If you choose to do so, then it's your choice, not the best/only one for everyone.

The ISF position seems to be oblivious to the vast variation in source material and that there are more viewing conditions than "day" and "night" and that the user can easily correct any deficiencies with the remote and the user menu. If the user does not perceive a problem that needs fixing wiith the remote, then what possible value could brightness calibration be, except its dubious distinction as a bragging point.Is this just another attack childish attack on ISF? Variations in source material is unpredictable and you can’t tell if it is intentional. If a calibration is done to accommodate the users major viewing conditions they are usually happy. What you don’t seem to understand is the number of people willing to learn and adjust their own TVs is miniscule, the population that knows there is a need to adjust the TV is slightly larger than that. Most consumers want ONE button. They want to turn it on and watch it, they don’t even want to change viewing modes let alone adjust Brightness and Contrast for each program.

My only objection is your insisting position that your calibration method is the only valid solution to a calibration. Because you don’t want to spend $5K on a color analyzer and think your eye is just as good doesn’t mean that the members of the forum have to agree, or are willing to try. If the intent of this thread and all of the threads in this forum is to help inform and educate those that are interested in learning, then attacking others and insisting your method is right and the only way to proceed, greatly reduces your credibility.

Throughout this thread I have tried to explain the approach I use to achieve specific and/or desired results. I have even given recommendations on DIY techniques and procedures and never tried to solicit business. I have provided detailed color temperature calibration techniques to help the readers better understand the concept. I have also tried to explain why adherence to certain standards is necessary when providing others with calibration services. You will most likely never agree that there is any other method to properly calibrate a video display than yours, and I am sorry for that. It tells me you are not open to any suggestions, and your attacks on me and ISF calibrations in general, show it. I have stated I think it is difficult for anyone to use clouds to accurately set white balance, but I didn't say it was wrong or couldn't be an alternative DIY option. I gave optical comparator methods for those without clouds, which you even attacked because of the accuracy of 6500K light sources, and you really attacked the x/y coordinate method of accurately setting color temperature to D65 with a color analyzer.

Reagan,

Your green spot may just be the result of some magnetic buildup in that area of the screen. Speakers and other nearby electronic equipment or fields could be the cause. I get spots like that from time to time as well, and usually they go away after the screen has been degaussed a few times, and/or a few components are shuffled around, or the TV is moved to a different location or orientation.

The TV will automatically degauss itself every time you turn it on. It's not a good idea to turn the TV off and on repeatedly in a short space of time though. So you're probably best just letting the degaussing take its course through normal use, or at least giving it about half hour to cool off before powering it on again.

See this link for more: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm

One thing I have noticed on my Sony 34XBR800 (and some other TVs) is that the convergence seems to be sensitive to how high contrast is set. So I do try to set the contrast and leave it and make adjustments to picture content via other means.

I believe some other TVs may have "dynamically adjusting convergence" though. And was wondering if that might address this issue. Any thoughts on this?

What I have heard no one mention, or at least I will have to review this thread, is the control of ambient lighting. If I'm not mistaken, next to properly setting a "standard" ft-lambert of the display, ambient lighting IS CRUCIAL.
From what I have learned, 30 ft-lamberts would be just fine for a direct view crt in a dimly lit room, 50 for a bright sun lit room. So going from where the standard should be set, you will have to more than double you light output to get satisfactory results in a brightly lit room. So there we go. There must be a standard set somewhere for ONE viewing condition ! And there is. That's why an ISF calibrator SHOULD take the extra step to ensure ambient conditions will be met for his work. Now, am I right or wrong on this ?
But................. at least in my home, viewing conditions aren't always as desired. Wife pulls drapes back, I pull them shut, cycle goes on. You know the drill. That is where I like to have the control of the remote. Not to sit there and watch something I'm interested in only to have the picture halfa**.

Now my luck changed last week. I opted for a new couch. Wife said the drapes don't match. Hmmm. Could I possibly talk her into something like.....a really dark set of brown curtains? Yep. Made the biggest difference. Daytime viewing is much more pleasing now. There is now marriage between daytime and nighttime viewing. And the remote stays put.

Maybe we should lighten up a little in here. Now I'm not saying the content is not enjoyable, but I sure would like to sit down with you guys for a beer or two. Maybe we could all go over to Ken's place and check out his set and marvel. Then, Glen, maybe you could show us your magic at your place. Take in to perspective gentlemen, until we do that................ you finish the sentence.

One thing I have noticed on my Sony 34XBR800 (and some other TVs) is that the convergence seems to be sensitive to how high contrast is set. So I do try to set the contrast and leave it and make adjustments to picture content via other means.
I think this is the case with all phosphor based displays. It also goes back to my comment about “maximum” contrast setting should be at a point just below the start of scan-line distortion. As a dot displayed on a phosphor screen is excited beyond its optimal range, it starts to grow, bleed over into its surrounding area. This is also where you can see focus and convergence issues because R, G, & B all react a little differently and have different DRV settings. My guess would be that the one with the highest DRV setting would be the first to go. If RDRV is the highest setting, then with a grid pattern, as contrast is increased, you might start to see a little red bleeding from each side of the line.

Maximum, optimal contrast, depending on individual display capabilities, is not always right setting for all viewing conditions. Some displays are not capable of excessive lumens in a dark viewing environment, therefore its max would be appropriate.

The picture, almost always, is sharper with reduced contrast. This is one reason I plan to stack two Marquee 9500LC projectors for my HT. Twice the light output will allow me to reduce contrast resulting in a much sharper image. This is much more noticeable on a screen that is 10.5 times the area of the 34” screen.

This may be interesting reading for some:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1734380,00.asp

http://www.etconsult.com/papers/whitepoint.pdf

It also goes back to my comment about “maximum” contrast setting should be at a point just below the start of scan-line distortion.Here's what I notice on my 34XBR800, FWIW. If I put a one-pixel thin white horizontal line on a light grey backdrop, and then begin to overdrive the contrast in a progressive mode (480p), the white line will start to expand in width, and then it will actually separate into two distinct lines! Either this is a problem with my TV, or it graphically illustrates the potential loss of clarity in a vertical direction when contrast is set too high.

If I set convergence with contrast adjusted to the point just before this vertical "blooming" distortion begins to occur, then the convergence will also go noticeably out of adjustment in the horizontal direction if contrast is increased as well. And I'll begin to get red and blue fringing on high contrast vertical edges especially toward the sides of the screen. So my TV can loose PQ in both directions as a result of increasing contrast beyond a certain point.

Decreasing contrast (below the distortion point) seems to be less of a problem though. So I'm inclined to agree that there is an optimum setting for maximum contrast on my 34XBR800 that should not generally be exceeded for best picture clarity. And I frequently seem to need all that contrast (and then some) on this TV for a decent picture. There's alot you can do to control the picture by other means though. I frequently tweak the gamma* and sometimes the white level/clipping** via controls on the DVD player, since that's easiest. Ken's method of setting up different gamma configurations on the TV might be another way of handling this. Controlling ambient light (and readjusting black level/Brightness on the TV as necessary) might be another. I don't like to have ambient light too low though, because then the phosphor lag/trails on the CRT start to become distracting.

Whether there are other features that might mitigate some of these contrast-related issues on newer TVs than mine, I can't say.

* This is labeled "Brightness" on my Sony DVP-NS715P player, and "Gamma" on the video overlay on my PC
** I believe this control is labeled "Picture" on my Sony player and either "Picture" or "Contrast" on the video overlay on my PC.

So I'm inclined to agree that there is an optimum setting for maximum contrast on my 34XBR800 that should not generally be exceeded for best picture clarity. And I frequently need all that contrast (and then some) on this TV for a watchable picture. So I often have to compensate, ie brighten the image, via other means (usually with the gamma* and white level/clipping** controls on the DVD player, since that's easiest).This is exactly what I would expect from *any* CRT television, as they all share the same laws of physics and the shortcomings of magnetic-deflection and focusing mechanisms. The "fattening" of the scan spot with increasing brightness *always* occurs. My experience extends from old green oscilloscope tubes from the 50s thru modern flat-face oscilloscope tubes, modern fine monitors, and these current TVs. The beam always spreads with increased beam current (intensity). But how bad it is for a given screen brightness seems to depend a lot on how elegantly the engineers have designed the beam-forming electrodes (the "gun") and the "shape" of the focusing field. Modern tubes are amazing, compared with older designs. The current Sony SFP uncoated tubes can achieve brightness levels without significant degradation I never would have imagined before owning one!

In practice, all one can do is focus the display according to sensible techniques. Sony have accommodated these huge, wide-deflection tubes amazingly well with sophisticated dynamic-focus and -convergence schemes. Tuning the screen-center focus for a fairly high-brightness test pattern will produce different results from using a dim pattern under low ambient light: spot blooming will be minimized in bright areas, but it will never go away. It's is, as you say, a matter of tolerance.

If I had your set (and I nearly do: the 36" is huge, but it has a newer-technology tube), I would optimize focus, set Picture at midpoint (31), and set the drives for the highest brightness that you think maintains high quality. Then, while watching, you can up the Picture for video sources that need it (maybe small areas of white without detail anyway), or return it to your "optimum" for critical viewing of a favorite DVD. That way, you maintain control, but you know at least one setting (31) that is near-perfect as a reference point.

I agree that the ambient lighting is very important, especially its brightness. If the TV does not dominate the eye/brain color-sensing mechanism, the surrounding colors start to affect what you perceive as "neutral" tones. For critical viewing, I find that the background lighting must be much less intense than the TV's display and not too strongly colored. But I can't imagine painting my wall behind the TV titanium-dioxide white and using only a 6500K backlight. Of course it will work, but, jeez! it's a *living* room.
Whether there are other features that might mitigate some of these contrast-related issues on newer TVs than mine, I can't say.I know no further tricks, either. Getting that initial focus adjustment right, howerver, made a significant difference in the quailty of bright scenes on my TV. That's why I wrote article #13.

This may be interesting reading for some:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1734380,00.asp. . . or *required* if you recall some of your science education and really care about what we're duscussing in this thread. This marvelous article is bookmarked on my computer for reference. Three cheers for technical writing that avoids unnecessary jargon while really explaining the important basics.http://www.etconsult.com/papers/whitepoint.pdfThanks for this! Last evening I saw the latest "Batman" movie in a new, state-of-the-art theater and couldn't stop thinking about black level and white balance! This article explains a lot and is timely for me. It should be a little sobering for those who consider sacred the "director's intent," illustrating just how much variations there are in real cinema theaters. Outdoor scenes, showing occasional clear film, seemed yellowish to me in the blown highlights, and the black level sucked -- and this in an otherwise very dark movie.

Both of these articles have made me very happy to have a fine CRT-TV, and someday I'll have to borrow/rent "Batman" to see what a DVD transfer looks like.

ADU,
My approach on this is to display a full white field. If you use 480i, individual scan-lines should be visible up close. Then if you change “Picture” you should be able to see when the black space between the scan-lines starts to narrow and even disappear if pushed too high. You could also take this a step further by using primary fields, 100 Red, 100 Green and 100 Blue to see if any start at a different point. Blue is not as big a problem as Red and Green.

These TVs can easily put out 50 ft-lamberts at the center of the screen. This is way above SMPTE theater viewing levels. When you further reduce “Picture” for night viewing, the eye will adjust to it to the point you will feel it in the eye when there is a bright flash on the screen. If you view with too “bright” of a screen, it will be harder for the eye to see black details and you will need to adjust the black level accordingly. One way to test this is to use the Needle Pulse pattern with the half 0 IRE and half 100 IRE. Use your high “Picture” setting and adjust to the proper black level. Now start reducing “Picture” and watch you black level setting.

As for many theater setups, it wouldn’t surprise me if the operator knew as much about setup as the local CC or BB salesmen do about TVs. . . . . . . "You push this button and the picture comes up there".

My approach on this is to display a full white field. If you use 480i, individual scan-lines should be visible up close.Glen, you do pull the back off these CRT sets and redo focus before judging brightness and line overlap, right?

If you use 480i, individual scan-lines should be visible up close...[I think] I know what you're driving at here, but for those who may not be following along quite so closely... :) to see the individual scanlines, ideally what you want is for the screen to be displaying/scanning in a 31.5khz 480p progressive mode, which is acheived either by directly feeding the TV a 480p signal, or by using 480i with either the Progressive or Cinemotion up-conversion (both of which also display at 480p on the screen).

Kentech, found a few discoverys last night with the MID 5 tables:

MHYR adds a blurring effect like MHLY and MHLC,i confirmed this with still images on the DVE disc using the troubleshooting section in the color section where it shows the still images of the girl in the restaraunt, the red head girl, the college campus with people outside, and the boy outsidde on the grass.Up close it was visible but very minor blurring effect.

Here arer my settings for MID 5 that i made better:

MHLY: 0
MHLC: 0
MVLY: 0
MVLC: 0
MHYR: 0
MHYL: 1
MHYE: 0
MHYO: 1
MHCR: 0
MHCL: 0
MHCE: 0
MHCO: 0
MVYR: 0
MVYL: 0
MVYE: 0
MVCR: 0
MVCL: 0
MVCE: 0

for the factory settyings for each input all were at 0 except for MHLY and MHLC these were on for each input and i turned them off, picturte is much better now and texture is clearly visible without being over enhanced or munipulated.

The goal like you said was to just pass the signall to the screen without any processing what so ever, the less the better and it looks great!

I still don't understand why sony would turn on tyhe low pass filters, theres really no need for them it just blurs the images and ruins textures.

My factory settings for MID 5 video input 5-6 component 480p were:

MHLY: 1
MHLC: 3
MVLY: 0
MVLC: 0
MHYR: 1
MHYL: 1
MHYE: 4
MHYO: 1
MHCR:0
MHCL: 0
MHCE: 0
MHCO: 0
MVYR: 0
MVYL: 0
MVYE: 0
MVCR: 0
MVCL: 0
MVCE: 0

Glen, you do pull the back off these CRT sets and redo focus before judging brightness and line overlap, right?
I have not gotten there yet. I haven’t done the magnets either. I don’t have one of these TVs at home to use as a test unit. This level of work is really beyond the scope of Basic ISF Calibrations and best for trained technicians. Experimenting on your own TV is one thing, but doing it for others has different responsibilities. Some of us will provide additional scope of calibration/alignment work, but most are not “Authorized Repair” technicians. Many of the people that ask for calibrations have new TVs that are usually under warranty. I always recommend they seek warranty service first. Some actually get replacement TVs. Warranty service and most service technicians don’t have the equipment and will not do color calibration and really don’t seem to care about any of the user settings either.

There are so many factors in this. A lot of calibration work is done within three feet of the TV to be able to see the detail, even with my 110” screen. Not everyone has acute vision to see slight focus errors, wearing glasses can create the appearance of convergence errors. Most people can see/detect slight color differences and are much less sensitive to change in light level.

I am a DIY kind of a person, I have done a variety of things over the years, worked on Navy jets (F-4J), Porsche race cars, rebuilt cars, painted cars, designed engineered and built a house, cabinet work, rebuilt and modified CRT projectors … … … … Because of my varied background, I have a tendency, or am willing to go a little deeper in calibrations when I have enough documentation (which doesn’t always exist). I am willing to experiment with adjustments, but not without fully discussing and disclosing to the customer that I haven’t done this before, etc. Occasionally, I may experiment with adjustments to try to improve the image at no additional cost to the customer. Some TVs like DLP and LCD can be difficult on gray scale, Contrast and Brightness settings.


I know what you're driving at here, but for those who may not be following along quite so closely... :) to see the individual scanlines, ideally what you want is for the screen to be displaying/scanning in a 31.5khz 480p progressive mode, which is acheived either by directly feeding the TV a 480p signal, or by using 480i with either the Progressive or Cinemotion up-conversion (both of which also display at 480p on the screen). If you stay with an interlaced signal, you will see the scan-lines easier because only every other line is displayed on the screen. Progressive shows every line. Using progressive, you should be able to see the scan-lines and as contrast increases too much, the scan-lines will tend to disappear.

The goal like you said was to just pass the signall to the screen without any processing what so ever, the less the better and it looks great! "Looks great" is the important part. But bear in mind that many video sources have been degraded and need some sharpening to "look great," and so that's what it's for. Use wisely, that's all. (That said, if you like things scratchy-sharp, as I'm sure some folks do, the Sharpness Police will not come knocking at your door . . .)
I still don't understand why sony would turn on tyhe low pass filters, theres really no need for them it just blurs the images and ruins textures.I agree, But some folks probably complain about noise or grain on SD RF broadcasts (e.g. analog cable), and this softening also reduces noise. Some folks like a *smooth* picture. Maybe Sony has gotten enough complaints about "noise" that they decided to filter it out even at the expense of fine detail. My solution? A suitable viewing distance for SD video, and I don't see the noise (it's random) but I do see the image detail. Sony obviously has their own priorities!

If you stay with an interlaced signal, you will see the scan-lines easier because only every other line is displayed on the screen. Not sure what you're driving at here since 480i is up-converted to either 480p (Progressive or Cinemotion DRC), or 960i (Interlaced DRC) for display on these TVs and the scanlines aren't that easy to discern at 960i due to the interlacing... unless maybe you're referring to line-doubling? The scanlines should be relatively easy to make out with either a 480p signal or 480i Progressive/Cinemotion though.

It's great now because i can clearly look at a dvd transfer and see any flaws in it with these enhancements off.

like on the fifth element superbit edition, picture was much sharper now but EE was evident more clearly now.

This way the tv won't add any EE and get it from the dvd instead.To compensate for 480i and lower rees sources that needed sharpening i left sharpness in the middle and put SYSM at 1. for good material like dvd 480p and above a setting of SYSM 3 looks best.

Thank you for your discoveries in making my day better with my sony:)

KenTech,

Thanks so much for the info in this thread. I bought a brand new Sony KV24fs120 for my bedroom on closeout at Walmart for $160 (an incredibly low price) last month and, naturally, it had some of the very irritating geometry problems associated with this set and commented on ad nauseum at the Circuit City website. Otherwise, the set was fantastic in every way, and there was no way I was going to return it for the low price I paid.

Until yesterday, I did not even know what a "service menu" was. But last night I made adjustments to the TRAP, PAMP, UPIN, and LPIN settings in both the 4:3 and 16:9 modes and now the geometry problems are probably 95% corrected. Thanks for the clear instructions, without which I would never have attempted these changes, especially since I don't feel like purchasing the service manual for this set. The only keying difference in your general instructions was that the KV24FS120 writes changes merely by hitting the mute button (rather than mute - enter).

I have a US Digital HDTV set top box for receiving over-the-air HDTV signals. I set it to 480i and watch digital programs in the 16:9 mode, which squeezes the 480 lines on the 24" Sony from 14 inches vertically to about 10.5 inches. The resultant increase in picture intensity is amazing, and to my eyes much closer to high definition than standard definition. Prior to last night's adjustments, however, viewing in 16:9 intensified the geometry problems, which are now a thing of the past thanks to your invaluable instructions.

Hope I did not distract too much from your more technical posts. Just felt like I had to say "Thanks!!!"

Thanks for the clear instructions, without which I would never have attempted these changes, especially since I don't feel like purchasing the service manual for this set. The only keying difference in your general instructions was that the KV24FS120 writes changes merely by hitting the mute button (rather than mute - enter).You're very, very welcome! I'm quite boggled that what has been posted here in the way of *specific* instructions were of value to you. Who knew they would apply to your set, too? Power to the Paying Customer!

Just wanted to let everyone know that the green spot in the corner of my TV has improved slightly over the last week. Either that, or I'm just getting used to it. Either way, it's good news for me.

-Reagan

unplug your tv andplug it back in

I had this happen to me and the green spot went away.

Fixes it for me everytime.

I had a green smear on my Sony once. I freaked out! I thought it was permanent!

The first thing to do is remove the cause. It could be a poorly shielded speaker. In my case, it was a desktop decorative gadget with a strong magnet inside. I casually put the gadget on top of the TV not thinking about the magnetic effect!After removing the cause of the problem, I turned the TV off and on at intervals for a few minutes. The click sound you hear when the TV turns on is degaussing (demagnetizing) the tube. This solved most of the problem. It went away completely after 2 or 3 days.

I just picked up a 34XS955 and it has some pincushion distortion and convergence issues. Its just a couple of days old, and I was curious if I called Sony, they could send someone out to fix this in home? This is a noob question, but I am a noob and don't feel comfortable messing around in the service menu quite yet.

It seems Sony should do this under warranty right? Circuit City (where I got it from) doesn't sell it anymore, so an exchange isn't an option.

Thanks

I'd like to thank everyone in this thread. I got a 30hs420 about 10 days ago. After reading the thread several times I final went into the SM and am able to change values and such and I have my defaults recorded. I visually adjust my whites with the g & b drvs, but the cuts offs is a little confusing. I went with one of the procedures later in the thread in calculating some of the cut offs where you drive to a yellow. Anyway I seem to be driving towards Kens values so I just threw in his numbers on drvs, cutoffs and the gain. Everything seems pretty good. With Vivid I put Kens P4 image processing values and some of the noise seems to have gone. Standard seems to have the most detail and I use that for TV. Movie and Pro I might switch to for upscaling 1080i DVDs. I may try and figure where Std is getting some of that extra detail and put it in Pro. Although all my modes are converging to be very similar. I leave everything in Neutral color. I'm pretty impressed so far. The strong fleshy tomes are gone. My Gamma pic from Avia shows Std & Movie to be 2.2 and Pro looks to be more like 2.0 and Vivid 1.9. My Gamm for Pro is default 0. Is there some way to boost Pro gamma to something more like 2.2? Thks

I just picked up a 34XS955 and it has some pincushion distortion and convergence issues. Its just a couple of days old, and I was curious if I called Sony, they could send someone out to fix this in home? This is a noob question, but I am a noob and don't feel comfortable messing around in the service menu quite yet.

It seems Sony should do this under warranty right? Circuit City (where I got it from) doesn't sell it anymore, so an exchange isn't an option.

Thanks
I would definitely call either Sony or CC. I'm not sure which would be the correct one to call first. Let them take their best shot at it before trying it yourself. They owe it to you to correct such problems so early in the game.

Good Luck! ;)

My Gamma pic from Avia shows Std & Movie to be 2.2 and Pro looks to be more like 2.0 and Vivid 1.9. My Gamm for Pro is default 0. Is there some way to boost Pro gamma to something more like 2.2?Trouble is, the factory settings for Standard and Vivid (and a bit with Movie) invoke a *dynamic-contrast* feature in the set, controlled by the settings for 2170P-4/BLK and the following three codes: DCTR (dynamic contrast ?), APED, and DSBO (dynamic sub-brightness offset?) BLK is a combo preset for those next three. Any picture mode that sets BLK at 0 turns OFF any dynamic-contrast activity: Pro on all inputs; Movie on all but a few 480i inputs plus ATSC (tuner) 1080i and 720p; and Standard and Vivid on all inputs. So in Pro mode, your black-level settings (SBRT) and xDRV and xCUT settings are seen as you have set them, and gamma is as you have set. On the other picture modes, the wildcard of dynamic-contrast affects both contrast/brightness and apparent gamma based on the video content.

Gamma settings for GAMM=0 (GAMx = 0) *are* max; on my 36XS955 it is about 2.45 in Pro mode. When I change the three GAMx settings to 3, I get a measured display gamma of about 2.2. I have made sure that dynamic-contrast effects are not working *anywhere,* as I don't want the TV making decisions like that based on the video material. I know "Dynamic Picture Control" serves some purposes for unsophisticated viewers and store demo, but it's not to my liking at all.

Bottom line: Do not trust the results of color, brightness, or gamma tests in anything but Pro mode out-of-the-box. (And caution: your black-level settings, SBRT or the Brightness slider, greatly affect the measurement of gamma. Make sure you have set it correctly in low room lighting.)

Of course, as I have, you can re-program the three other modes to be anything you wish. It takes a long time to go to all of the relevant settings for each mode and change them, but I believe it's worth it. (See article #05 - Customizing Picture Modes, in this thread.) I supposed one could leave one of the modes as-is for uncritical bright-afternoon viewing of kids programs or football, which is what may be intended by Sony. But I have never regretted making Pro and Movie *exactly* alike, then altering gamma for Movie to 2.2 (GAMM=1 and GAMx=3). I use that reduced gamma a lot for dark HD programming and some SD material where it's warranted. (CSI/Miami, Lost come to mind.) If it looks better in Movie mode, that's what I use instead of squinting at the shadows!

Glad you're being successful in improving your set, Hef! It will leave you feeling like you have more control, and you will get it to work like *you* wish it to.

Its just a couple of days old, and I was curious if I called Sony, they could send someone out to fix this in home?Right. Your *service* warranty lasts for 90 days. As justsc said, you have every right to expect reasonably minimal defects out of the box (although *none* is hoping for too much). You could wait a little longer for the set to "settle in" before calling a service tech, maybe a month or two, but I have no proof that significant changes occur during that time -- especially with geometry and convergence.

Tip: Instead of calling any Sony national 800-number, you might mosey over to a high-endish dealership for Sony, be friendly, and ask them for a service-shop referral. Then call the shop directly. You are likely going to get a more-sympathetic response to your wishes from a local person than from a Sony-service call center! I had *no* problem with this 7 days before the warranty expired, and he was able to correct a global up/down red shift. Then he explained the nightmare of doing small local corrections that might throw off the otherwise-excellent convergence elsewhere. (It all interacts; I know this from experience.) Having his superior wisdom in the house for a while was a definite benefit!

Does anyone know how to correct overscan for 1080i sources only, without it affecting 480p? I have a Sony 30xs955.

Ken,

FWIW, I just ran across an updated version of the PNG gamma tutorial posted previously which gives average CRT gamma as 2.2 instead of 2.5.

http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/spec/1.2/PNG-GammaAppendix.html

Here's the previous version (http://www.w3.org/TR/PNG-GammaAppendix.html) of the document for comparison which assumed a 2.5 CRT gamma. Note that the "viewing gamma" (now referred to as the "end-to-end exponent") for a dim surround was also changed accordingly from 1.25 to 1.14.

The source of these changes may have been the HP CRT survey mentioned in this document (http://www.color.org/sRGB.html).

These documents are geared a bit more toward web applications though. So I kinda wonder if they might have gotten a little different average gamma readings if they'd sampled home theater CRTs instead of computer monitors.

More discussion re gamma & DVDs: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5999871#post5999871

Re 2.2 vs. 2.5... I did a test to see what difference black level makes in the gamma reading on my 34XBR800 using the patterns posted earlier in the thread.

If I use RGB=0 as my black reference, then I get a gamma reading of about 2.25.

If I use RGB=16 as my black reference, then I get a gamma reading much closer to 2.5.

Perhaps that's the source of some of the confusion re the average CRT gamma. Maybe the video guys are adjusting for something approximating RGB=16, and the Internet guys are adjusting for RGB=0. I think gamma patterns like the ones posted here are really intended for use with a full 0-255 RGB "computer palette" though, rather than a 16-235 "video palette"* (with black level adjusted lower). And my guess is that HP did their survey using RGB=0 as well, and that's how they arrived at an average CRT gamma of ~2.2.

Ken,

Do you remember which way your black level was set when you took your gamma readings? Was it set for RGB=16, or RGB=0?

*I put "computer palette" and "video palette" in quotes because digital video input devices may use either a 16-235 RGB palette, or a 0-255 RGB palette.

Do you remember which way your black level was set when you took your gamma readings? Was it set for RGB=16 (~7.5 IRE), or RGB=0?
You are confusing the concept of black level as input-standard (a voltage representing 0 or 7.5 IRE) with black level as observed (set, say, with a PLUGE pattern). As observed, black is black if properly adjusted no matter what the input is that represents black. In my case, I see a slight screen glow for *absolute* digital black, which is an orthodox result from a DVD PLUGE calibration using *my* player. One can confirm with the "digital black" screens on, say, the DVE DVD.

I did PLUGE only once for my DVD input, since there is little variation among high-quality DVDs, and that was with Brightness at 31. That is generally satisfactory.

For broadcast video, tapes, etc., black level is empirical: I adjust Brightness until the observed black level appears correct -- relatively easy. Brightness = 31 is only a starting point! I don't care if the source-black is 0, 7.5, or any other bizarre IRE level (some cable channels are way off!), it ends up *looking* black.

It would be best to refer to screen brightness as percent-white, not IRE. My measurement of gamma occurred after confirming a perfect black level in low-level evening room lighting.

You are confusing the concept of black level as input-standard (a voltage representing 0 or 7.5 IRE) with black level as observed (set, say, with a PLUGE pattern).Or perhaps not stating my question very well. What I meant to say was-- what color black were you using as your reference when setting the Brightness/black level on your TV prior to taking your gamma readings, RGB=0 or RGB=16? It's probably irrelevant though since I don't have enough info about the rest of your setup to put that information into a useful context, so just forget I asked. :)

One thing with that very thick piece of glass on the face of the tube, black levels suffer significantly with bright image content. This is one main reason Ken sees a slight glow with his black level setting. Anything lower and you have major losses in black detail.

The Pluge pattern can be used to set black level, but you should check it with a high APL pattern too.

I agree that there are many video sources that can be improved by tweaking Picture and Brightness, DVD, SD broadcast and HD.

One thing with that very thick piece of glass on the face of the tube, black levels suffer significantly with bright image content. This is one main reason Ken sees a slight glow with his black level setting.How are these two statements related? The slight glow is generated by the tube, easy to see, since I have a 4:3 tube, and the boundary of a 16:9 display is clearly visible if there is a glow.

The thick, dark glass reduced the brightness of all light emission evenly, bright and dim. Picture and Brightness settings compensate for it completely. That the glass is dyed dark reduces the effect of room light on the tube face, making the shadow detail much clearer. (Room light has to pass thru the glass *twice.*)

If you set "black" to absolute black (no light emitted), the darkest shadow colors are too saturated and shadow detail is lost. The "toe" of the emission curve is also polluted by room light. I have experimentally adjusted black levels up and down with great sources (usually DVDs), and the best results are with video-black for the source chosen set *slightly* above absolute black for the CRT. The resulting picture qiality proves the point: anything else doesn't look right.

I agree... sort of. In general though, I don't think you should be able to see a glow from a black screen in your normal ambient lighting. (Unless you have no choice but to use Brightness to compensate for other issues in the CRT's design or adjustment.)

FWIW, if you set your black level with your normal ambient viewing light on, and just try to dial down your reference black till you achieve what appears to your eyes to be a perfect match with a 0-voltage area of the screen* (but no lower), then you should be leaving just enough room for the toe**... something you can probably verify by turning all ambient light off, and then confirming there's a slight glow from the screen.

If there's a detectable glow on a black screen when your ambient light is on, then darker scenes may appear to ride on a pedestal of dark grey.

If colors look excessively saturated with black set this way, then your gamma (or contrast) may need some further tweaking. Just my 2c.

*...or using whatever method your calibration DVD recommends.
**...if there is one.

If I use RGB=0 as my black reference, then I get a gamma reading of about 2.25. If I use RGB=16 as my black reference, then I get a gamma reading much closer to 2.5.This illustrates the difficulty of measuring gamma with any type of screen pattern. The usual pattern juxtaposes two areas: (1) a specific composite "gray" that is composed of black and white in some pattern, say alternating black and white scan lines. (If black is truly black, that is a (linear) 50% brightness relative to the white level). And (2) a real solid gray of calculated density such that for a given gamma, say 2.2, the brightness of the solid gray appears exactly the same (average) brightness as the b/w composite gray. You blur your eyes, if that helps. Raising the black level with the Brightness control screws up the relationship between those two "gray" areas, giving a false reading.

In actual fact, Brightness (black level) setting has *no* effect on real gamma: In practice, the measured brightness response of any CRT display is composed of a fixed-brightness pedestal plus a curve relating video input to additional screen brightness. Changing the pedestal height (adding a screen glow or eliminating it or making it negative) does not change the power factor of the curve: the gamma. But measuring this would require a photometer aimed at the screen and a variable, calibrated video-level generator as input. Then you could draw the graph, separate the curve from the pedestal, and determine the exponent of the curve. *That* would be measureing gamma! But we're stuck with using patterns, and so one has to be careful to calibrate screen-black to a digital-black signal, and the whole measurement must be done in a very dark room. That is how I estimated the inherent max gamma of my set for GAMM=0 at 2.45. It amounts to an interesting tidbit, and one can set other gammas with the GAMx codes (3 yields about 2.2). But I yearn for a true Gamma Control, and *that* would be correctly labeled "Contrast." I set gamma to suit the program material, and the max setting is usually the best, especially with DVDs and SD broadcast. But then there are those few super-contrasty broadcasts that lose a lot in the shadows. Lower gamma to the rescue!

I have a 34XS955 and I've been monkeying around for the past few weeks in the service menu trying to make my TV look better and I have a question and a few problems that I can't seem to get rid of.

My question is this: Is it better to make adjustments, both geometry and picture, in the 2170P and 2170D groups, or the MID5 group?

Now, to my problems:
1) I have a stripe that runs down the center of the screen that is slightly brighter then the rest of the screen. It's hard to see unless there is a light, fairly uniform background, but on pictures of the sky or anything like that, it's really noticeable. I can't see any way to smooth that out.

2) The left side of the screen shows a distortion about 1/4 of the way from the edge that looks like it's being pinched together there. It makes horizontally panning images look wavy. I originally thought that it was an issue with the horizontal linearity, but I can't seem to get it smoothed out.

Well, thanks in advance for any assistance anyone can render.

If colors look excessively saturated with black set this way, then your gamma (or contrast) may need some further tweaking.Or raises the bigger problem of broadcast quality control. The ideal is that correct shadows and correct dark-color should occur with the same black-level adjustment.

But I regularly encounter video that doesn't fit that description: Colors are oversaturated in shadows even though the shadow brightness (black level) is fairly high! Everybody in the scene has orange-red colors under their chins and noses and behind their ears, but there is no real black in the picture -- what to do? I diddle Brightness for a good compromise, then enjoy the show.

I regularly see meticulously set up video from the big three networks on their HD programming -- set black level to a real black, and the results are just about perfect. But there's a lot that doesn't conform.

My TV is calibrated for Brightness = 31 and Color = 31 to be a best-possible average. For DVDs it's perfect. Then I watch an ABC program called Brat Camp and can't get black levels right until I jack Brightness to 36. Color is fine. Later, the local ABC news requires me to set Brightness back to 31.

On a Friday evening I watch some PBS half-hour news programs, and I have to crank Brightness down to 25 and Color to (get this) 21 for a reasonable picture! Why is PBS transmitting 150% chroma?? Who is minding the store? Am I worried about gamma? Hah!

This illustrates the difficulty of measuring gamma with any type of screen pattern. The usual pattern juxtaposes two areas: (1) a specific composite "gray" that is composed of black and white in some pattern, say alternating black and white scan lines. (If black is truly black, that is a (linear) 50% brightness relative to the white level). And (2) a real solid gray of calculated density such that for a given gamma, say 2.2, the brightness of the solid gray appears exactly the same (average) brightness as the b/w composite gray. You blur your eyes, if that helps. Raising the black level with the Brightness control screws up the relationship between those two "gray" areas, giving a false reading.That might explain some of the difference in readings we're getting, because I set my black level with the ambient light on as described in my last post, prior to taking my measurements. If I had set the black level lower in an attempt to match the CRT's "absolute black" then it's quite possible I might have gotten a little higher reading than 2.25... but (as I rethink it) not necessarily a more accurate one.

You're more likely to get an incorrect reading from these gamma patterns if your Brightness is set too low than if it's set too high. So for the time being, I'll still stand by my 2.25 as the more accurate measurement of my CRT's true gamma.

If Brightness/black level is set so low that the darkest RGB values (ie, the black lines) in the gamma pattern become truncated (...something which might occur if you're using RGB=16* as your black reference, and/or trying to adjust black level in total darkness...), then the relationships between the swatches and B&W lines breaks down and the gamma reading becomes unreliable.

If Brightness/black level is set higher, then the swatches and lines should still maintain their brightness relationships and give you a pretty accurate reading, because they are all increased in brightness by the same amount.

*Just to clarify, I'm not trying to advocate here that people should use RGB=0 for their regular video setup, instead of RGB=16. Whether you use RGB=16 or RGB=0 (or some other black reference) in setting up your display for proper viewing depends entirely on the video source. My point here is that using RGB=16 as your black reference may simply yield an inaccurately higher reading from gamma measurement patterns which were designed with a full 0-255 computer monitor palette in mind.

My comment was more to the effect the glass has on setting black levels with a mid or high (50%) APL. CRT is known for the best blacks, however the direct view CRTs, usually have the poorest ANSI contrast ratio performance of all. The thicker the front glass, the larger the affected area of internal light reflection. The light that reflects back at an angle from the front surface of the glass has more glass to travel through spreading the area. Any light source that hits a portion of the phosphor that is not the direct image, hurts black levels.

ABC is terrible about making their HD programs too dark.

The thicker the front glass, the larger the affected area of internal light reflection. . . . Any light source that hits a portion of the phosphor that is not the direct image, hurts black levels.Oh, agreed. My black-level measurements are not made with bright material present. Program fade-outs give me an opportunity to see the edge of the 16:9 area relative to the unscanned area of the tube. Absent that, with a little practice, one can make decent judgements based on the appearance of the video. Either tow low or too high a black level will appear inferior to a satisfactory setting.

Couple of questions:

1) I assume it's ok to have a little bit of a light (glow) emmit from the tube even if you have your source, let's say DVD player, off? I assume so.

2) My DVD player is upscaling to 1080i and I believe the TV is using the HD color matrix (SMPTE 296M), but my Zenith is using the SD color matrix (SMPTE 170M). I can go into the CXA2171 menu and change the MTRX from 1 to 0 and that will treat 1080i sources with the SD color matrix (someone found this out with their Sony TV), but it also treats C6 that way too and I have a HDTV tuner and it uses the HD color matrix. The differences seem subtle, but does anyone know a SM item that might correct this for my C5 1080i source only? TIA

1) I assume it's ok to have a little bit of a light (glow) emmit from the tube even if you have your source, let's say DVD player, off? I assume so.If you turn all your ambient light off, and wait till your eyes adjust to the dark, then yes, you probably should see a slight glow from scanned areas (to borrow Ken's term) of the screen, even with a totally black picture. You may even see a slight glow from unscanned/0-voltage areas. IMO though you should not really be able to see a detectable difference in black between the scanned and unscanned areas with your ambient light on. Just my 2c. YMMV. The "pedestal of grey" may be your best gauge though. If blacks in dark scenes look more like a very dark grey than black, then your Brightness may be a little too high. Some TVs (especially ones with badly adjusted grey scales) may lose too much shadow detail set this way though.2) My DVD player is upscaling to 1080i and I believe the TV is using the HD color matrix (SMPTE 296M), but my Zenith is using the SD color matrix (SMPTE 170M). I can go into the CXA2171 menu and change the MTRX from 1 to 0 and that will treat 1080i sources with the SD color matrix (someone found this out with their Sony TV), but it also treats C6 that way too and I have a HDTV tuner and it uses the HD color matrix. The differences seem subtle, but does anyone know a SM item that might correct this for my C5 1080i source only? TIAThat's an excellent question, Hef. This is an issue that I have only recently begun to delve into a bit myself, so take anything I have to say on this subject with a very large grain of salt... but I guess the developing consensus is that the player or video input device should make the necessary color adjustment when outputting 720p/1080i, to accomodate the HD color space on the TV.

I don't think I've run across an input level adjustment for the HD color space on my 34XBR800 so far, but that doesn't mean that there isn't one hidden somewhere else in the various codes. If noone else has an idea on this, then Sony's Non-Authorized Service Tech Support might be able to give a more definitive answer.

Since you brought the issue of different color spaces up...

***A word of advice regarding CXA2171/MTRX-- On my 34XBR800, this item does not work like most of the other SM items with respect to saving and recalling from memory. It appears to be one of a handful of settings which are memory-independent.***

In addition, I wouldn't be surprised if the CXA2171/CBGN, CRGN, YGN offsets were designed expressly for the purpose of making minor adjustments to color decoding between the SD and HD color matrices. (This is something we touched on a bit earlier in the thread.)

I'm not sure what the original MTRX setting was on my TV anymore, but somehow it also ended up at 0

If you can input color bars or a pattern like this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=37573) at 33.75khz (1080i or 540p), then you can clearly see the changes in color decoding between the different MTRX settings by switching different color guns on and off with 2170P-2/RGBS.

Is there any chance Zenith might release a firmware update to correct any potential color issues on their 720p/1080i output?

Just thought of a possibility re the MTRX setting...

You guys with newer Sonys have an advanced "Monitor" and "Default" display mode on your TV which can store different color decoder settings (which my 34XBR800 can't). So maybe those two advanced display modes can store different HD color matrices (MTRX) as well. Might be worth a try anyway.

[Edit: based on later info in the thread, this probably wouldn't be possible anwyay, since MTRX seems to work transparently/automatically outside the SM, rather than actually being user-defineable control.]

Just thought of a possibility re the MTRX setting...

You guys with newer Sonys have an advanced "Monitor" and "Default" display mode on your TV which can store different color decoder settings (which my 34XBR800 can't). So maybe those two advanced display modes can store different HD color matrices (MTRX) as well. Might be worth a try anyway.

No Zenith is no longer doing firmware upgrades on this player. And on your quote above is the Advanced Monitor something in the service menu or the user menu? I'm not sure what or if I have this on my 30HS420 and where it is.

I believe it should be somewhere in the User Menu... if the 30HS420 has it. Somewhere perhaps under Advanced Video options. You should be able to switch between the two modes without having to go into the SM.

***A word of advice regarding CXA2171/MTRX-- On my TV, this item does not work like most of the other SM items with respect to saving and recalling from memory.I haven't tested this myself, but I will! Brings to mind my previous experience with a setting in the AUDIO group that survives power-off-on.

BUT . . . not an unplug-plug. It would be interesting to see if changes to the 2171 group survive unplugging the set. Sony's service manual actually states that, to test if your settings are being retained, unplug the set, wait a few seconds, then replug. Implies that Sony acknowledges this memory-limbo.

Nope quess i don't have it. Oh well.

Do you have any Advanced Video options at all? (Maybe those aren't supported on the HS420 line.)

It would be interesting to see if changes to the 2171 group survive unplugging the set. Sony's service manual actually states that, to test if your settings are being retained, unplug the set, wait a few seconds, then replug. Implies that Sony acknowledges this memory-limbo.MTRX may be the only item in the CXA2171 (CXA2151 on my model) group that behaves this way though. CBGN, CRGN, YGN at least seem to behave normally with respect to saving/recalling from memory.

A couple links on color space:
http://videoessentials.com/PCCoordinates.php
http://videoessentials.com/res_phosphors.php

So here's the code sequence to enter the service menu: "DISPLAY" "5" "VOLUME+" "POWER".

To navigate the service menu use the 1 and 4 keys, to change the values use the 3 and 6 keys.

To save a value setting press "MUTING" then "ENTER", the words "WRITE" will be displayed in red if it got saved.To exit the service menu just simply turn your tv off.


I'm pressing this code sequence to enter the service menu on my xbr960 and nothing is happening. Is there a trick to doing this?

Once you have a manual, there's also a 900 number that can be called for Non-Authorized Service Tech Support. It costs $3/min, with a $20 minimum for each call. According to Sony, you must have a service manual in front of you to use this service....

Does anyone have, and will share this number?

I don't have the 900 number, but you can get information about the service by contacting Sony's Direct Accessories and Parts.

Phone #: 1-800-488-SONY
Web: http://servicesales.sel.sony.com/web/contact_us.jsp

I'm pressing this code sequence to enter the service menu on my xbr960 and nothing is happening. Is there a trick to doing this?Are you starting with the TV off? Please be careful in there btw.

Are you starting with the TV off? Please be careful in there btw.

Thanks I was trying to do it while the tv was on.

Hopefully I won't screw anything up in there. I'm horribly clumsy but I just want to change a single digit so that I can watch 480p through the HDMI input. Currently I can't watch 4:3 video files on the set as my Oppo dvd player stretches them and there is no way to squeeze them back at the 720p and 1080i settings on the tv. So I need to use 480p so the tv can squeeze the videos back to their proper aspect ration :\

I'd also like to move the overscan slightly upwards since the subtitles on avi files tend to get cut off in the overscan at the bottom...but like I said, I'm clumsy so I'll skip touching any of this stuff and just change the 1 digit to get a working 480p picture ^^;

I'm still fiddeling with the geometry...

Question: In service mode inputting a 480i signal, the "Normal" screen mode is horisontally stretched to look like a letterbox movie format, with black bands on top and bottom. The other modes: Full, Wide Zoom and Zoom, looks fine.

In the second line of the service menu screen it reads "vc 960i". This doesn't look right, but since I cannot change this, I cannot remember what it should be. Could someone please let me know?

I know I can test the different modes in CXA2170P-4 item 20 IDSW. My screen looks exactly as the setting 4 (VC 960i). So setting 0 and 4 looks the same.

Does any of you have an idea what is wrong and how I can get back to the normal "Normal" setting on 480i input?

I'm still fiddeling with the geometry...
Does any of you have an idea what is wrong and how I can get back to the normal "Normal" setting on 480i input?

Found it: 2170D-1, 11, ZOOM, was set to 1 on "480i Normal"

I have now read the service manual for my XBR960 several times and I have tinkered, tested, reset and reset again, till I'm blue in my face...!

There are simply words and test scenarios I do not understand - so here I go:

1) Chapter 2-8 and 2-9 mentions NTSC (DRC) Full mode. What kind of signal is that? I know that Full mode is the 'Screen Mode" Full, but what is a NTSC (DRC) signal?

2) If the initial geometry is done in Full mode, how do I set the size of a normal 480 signal. I have tried the MIDI-1 settings, but they do not seem to be separating the normal mode from the full mode i 480?

3) 2170D-3, 4 and 5. What is the difference between Vcomp, Expansion Zoom and Zoom-V?

I promise that I will post all my trials and tribulations with the geometry as soon as I have a feeling that I understand it, and isn't just lucky to sometimes hit a good result.

1) Chapter 2-8 and 2-9 mentions NTSC (DRC) Full mode. What kind of signal is that? I know that Full mode is the 'Screen Mode" Full, but what is a NTSC (DRC) signal?Per Sony, “Digital Reality Creation™ (DRC) Multifunction V1 Unlike conventional line doublers, the DRC Multifunction feature replaces the signal’s NTSC waveform with near-HD equivalent by digital mapping processing. The DRC Palette option lets you customize the level of detail (Reality) and smoothness (Clarity) to create a customized picture that is optimized for signal quality, viewing conditions and personal preference.” As we discussed earlier in this thread (#245), the video signal gets processed in different ways, depending on the source. All Composite and S-video 480i signals are all processed through the DRC processor. A NTSC format signal, as I understand, is a max 480i / 60Hz video signal.

2) If the initial geometry is done in Full mode, how do I set the size of a normal 480 signal. I have tried the MIDI-1 settings, but they do not seem to be separating the normal mode from the full mode i 480?Yes, the initial geometry is done in MIDI-1 Full mode, then for the Normal/Other mode, use MIDI-2 #0,1,2,3

1) Chapter 2-8 and 2-9 mentions NTSC (DRC) Full mode. What kind of signal is that? I know that Full mode is the 'Screen Mode" Full, but what is a NTSC (DRC) signal? On my 4:3 set, I simply tune in a broadcast station, since that goes thru the DRC signal-path within the set. But if you do this, isn't it displayed with pillarboxes? So I'm not sure how to help because I don't know the ins and outs of how the 16:9 sets deal with ordinary SD video.

I have thought that your set generates a 4:3 synthetic "window" and displays 4:3 material within that, and some of the MID1-3 codes deal with that window. But that doesn't help you deal with the raster at the tube's edges.

I think what you need to do is get a *normal* signal on-screen (not zoomed) that fills the width of the screen, then make the listed adjustments. I think an anamorphic-enhanced DVD would likely do just fine. The HBLK = 0 kills the side-blanking, and AGNG collapses the raster a bit so you can see the edges. (Maybe the HBLK = 0 exposes a pillarboxed raster all the way to the edges.) Then you are (1) centering the video on the best part of the raster (it's gamy at the edges), then (2) centering *that* on the tube. Finally, you replace the blanking with HBLK = 1. That's how it worked on my 4:3 tube; I just wonder how this one set of instructions deals with both tube profiles. Sorry to be so vague.

Vcomp, Expansion Zoom and Zoom-V stand for vertically-compressed (for 4:3 tubes in 16:9 mode), 4:3 expanded to fill the width on your 16:9 set, and vertically-zoomed (absent on your set?). You can temporarily simulate (force) these scan modes with 2170P-4/IDSW, where 1-7 chooses all of the available scan modes and labels them on-screen. E.g. "VC 960i" means vertically-compressed 960 lines, interlaced. For your 16:9 set, one of the ID<n> codes programs your set to behave differently from mine for the different scan modes; I think it's ID7 = 19 that does it.

I can only speculate on your question #2, so I won't say anything just now. Sorry. If it's any help, the Excel spreadsheet of the commands that's available (attached) shows descriptions for MID2 codes as "Horizontal/vertical position/size for 4:3 pattern," which I think is meant for you, not me.

Yes, the initial geometry is done in MIDI-1 Full mode, then for the Normal/Other mode, use MIDI-2 #0,1,2,3

I need more assistance from the experts...!

Here is what I know, so far:
- "Full" with 480i or 480p input is a 4:3 signal that is stretched to fill the 16:9 screen.
- "Normal" with 480i or 480p input should be a 4:3 signal with black bars on the sides.
- "Full" with 1080i input is the standard 16:9 size.

So the Service Manual says to start with a "Full" DCR signal, which we have concluded must be a stretched 480i signal. Adjust using the 2170D-1 and 2 settings. When this is done you actually also have a perfect 1080i geometry, since the width and height of a "Full" (stretched) 480 signal is the same as a "Full" 1080i signal.

Now how do I create the "Normal" sized 480 geometry without effecting both the "Normal" 1080i geometry and the "Full" 480 geometry.

I cannot use MID1, 0-3 since they are shared.
I cannot use MID1, 8 and 10 since they are shared.
I cannot use MID2, 0-3 because they can only be reduced to about 90% of the screen size, without loosing sync, and
I cannot use MID3, 0-3 since they do not accept input on a 480 signal.

So as you see I'm lost...!
Even if most of what I watch is in either 1080i or 480p(Full) from the DVD, it would still be nice to also be able to watch unstretched 480i.

I still have a nasty feeling that there is a single setting somewhere, that when set will automatically NOT stretch 480 if the screen mode is "Normal".

I still have a nasty feeling that there is a single setting somewhere, that when set will automatically NOT stretch 480 if the screen mode is "Normal".


With the help from Clen and Ken I found it, it was an ID setting ID7, that should be 19. Which identifies the TV as a KD-34XBR960.

Immediately the 480 signal was correct...thanks...!

When I play a 2:35 DVD on my 16:9 screen in Full mode, I get a thin flickering scan line between the movie top and the top black bar.

Which setting do I use to adjust for this line?

When I play a 2:35 DVD on my 16:9 screen in Full mode, I get a thin flickering scan line between the movie top and the top black bar.

Which setting do I use to adjust for this line?I am not sure you will be able to remove it. The vertical height is set for the screen edge, not the picture edge. It must be coming from your DVD player. Do you see the same thing when watching any HD movies that are more than 1.78:1?

Hi all...

Newbie here....I have owned a variety of Trinitrons over the years and I haven't found any other brand that gives the same level of detail as Sonys and they were never calibrated. You know what I mean, grass that doesn't look like astro turf, the weave of the fabric on someone's suit, the "pancake" on newscaster's faces- you can actually see the texture of the powder!! You know, natural!

Anyway, bought a 34hs420 recently and I hate to say it but, it just doesn't look like a Sony. Good enough picture for sure but not what I was expecting.

For me, a Sony means detail, texture, natural. I'm prepared to invest time in the SM, but it's a shame these qualities aren't there out of the box like my other sets. Is this how they are now?

Thanks and glad to be aboard!

T.

]Thanks and glad to be aboard!You're welcome! But please, repeat after me: "I will never again post in yellow text." (Some of us have white or gray backgrounds, hello! Black is really best.)

I have went though the calibration forums in here and mostly they speak of color and grey levels. I would like to fix my geometry before I worry about the color settings.
The biggest problem I seem to have is when I bought the TV on component inputs the screen was not centered, so I called sony and they gave me the local repair shop. After he had come out the geometry was still not right ( he didn't seem to really care to fix it the way i wanted it ). since then I have been trying to fix it with not much luck. I did get the test patterns that KENTECH put on here ( that did help ). but in all the times of getting into service mode I may some of the settings way off :(
Sorry if this is asking allot but the site that was recommended to get the codes from don't have my model and I am not sure if another model is the same?
Any info would help, PLZ!!!

This is for the KV-34XBR800
Sry if I should have post here??? :(

IM newbie here and read the what KENTECH said about text color and got confused with the black background shows all text in yellow:)

You're welcome! But please, repeat after me: "I will never again post in yellow text." (Some of us have white or gray backgrounds, hello! Black is really best.)

My apologies, but as KrammuelSTEog said, I see all text in yellow on grey and thought that was what to do. Didn't see any indication anywhere on how the forum formats/displays itself.

Anyway, any ideas on my original post?


T.

My apologies, but as KrammuelSTEog said, I see all text in yellow on grey and thought that was what to do. Didn't see any indication anywhere on how the forum formats/displays itself.

Anyway, any ideas on my original post?


T.
I have the KV-34HS420, and it looks like a Sony to me. Granted, the XS/XBR series sets have greater resolution, but I would never rate the HS series as non-Sony. Are you comparing HD to non-HD sets?

If you haven't yet purchased and used the Avia or DVE calibration disks, by all means, do so. And yes, you can get much more bang for your buck, on the HS sets, with the right SM adjustments.

Hi all...

Newbie here....I have owned a variety of Trinitrons over the years and I haven't found any other brand that gives the same level of detail as Sonys and they were never calibrated. You know what I mean, grass that doesn't look like astro turf, the weave of the fabric on someone's suit, the "pancake" on newscaster's faces- you can actually see the texture of the powder!! You know, natural!

Anyway, bought a 34hs420 recently and I hate to say it but, it just doesn't look like a Sony. Good enough picture for sure but not what I was expecting.

For me, a Sony means detail, texture, natural. I'm prepared to invest time in the SM, but it's a shame these qualities aren't there out of the box like my other sets. Is this how they are now?

Thanks and glad to be aboard!

T.

Well if you already know how to enter the service menu then good,if not,don't fret at the beggining of this thread it tells you how.

Now if you want to get the most natural,sharpest picture possible without any processing to the image heres what is to be done.Our goal is to just pass the signal to the screen, and have nothing affect the image quality, just go from point A to B thank you.

Here are the serivce menu settings to get rid of these obtrusive edge enhancements that mar the image.

SYSM set this to 3, it is input and resolution dependant so you have to set it for each input and resolution.

QPDC adjusts this to the best focus in the middle of the screen overall.

of coarse you are using a calibration disc with test patterns to do this properly right?

Also leave it in PRO mode and keep the sharpness in the middle,don't worry instead of adjusting sharpness, everything is adjusted in the service menu instead.

Make sure clear edge is off in the user menu,and turn VM-VML to 0 .

same with VMLV-VMDL turn them to 0

SHOF make sure that's at 0 as well

Under MID 5 section turn MHLY-MVCE to 0, this is resolution dependant and input dependant,so adjust it for each input and resolution,ex.480i-1080i

and there you have it!

Sony quality, in it's purest form, no enhancements what so ever.

Now that's just for sharpness, if you want better colors and getting rid of red push adjust RYR-RYB with the red color filters with AVIA or DVE and GYR-GYB with the green color filters.Use Neutral color temp since that is the best color temperature.

then once done you can adjust color to what ever setting you like in the user menu.Mines at 29 and my settings are RYR=15,RYB=15, GYR=6, GYB=3

For adjusting black level properly so you see shadow detail, because these sony sets are none to hide it because of their too black, black levels.

First set brightness to the middle setting and leave it there, no need to adjust it since we are adjusting it in the service menu.

First find your input with the highest black level( the one with the smokiest blacks) then from there adjust SBRT using the pluge pattern in either AVIA or DVE use the instructions that tell you with the disc.

SBRT is a global setting as well as
RYR-GYB so once it's set it's set for all inputs.

Once you have set the input with the highest black level, in my case Video1-4 composite and S-video inputs, then set all the other inputs to match it in black level using UBOF in the service menu.UBOF is input and resolution dependant so you will have to adjust it for each input and resolution.

And there you have it, perfection! only thiong missing is to do geometry touch up if you have to or convergance and greyscale which i would'nt touch since you need the proper equipment that an ISF guy has.

At least you save yourself an ISF calibration since you pretty much did what they were going to do in the service menu anyways, minus greyscale and convergance.

Here are my picture settings that i have gooten after calibration and are my permanent settings that i like,feel free to try them:

PRO Mode
Contrast: 45
Brightness: 31 middle setting
Tint: middle setting
Color: 29
Sharpness: 31 middle setting.
Color temp: Neutral
Clear edge : Off
DRC: Interlaced

With the help from Clen and Ken I found it, it was an ID setting ID7, that should be 19. Which identifies the TV as a KD-34XBR960.

Immediately the 480 signal was correct...thanks...!

Wow, I'll check that out, because I have the problem that in 480p, in full it takes the full size of the screen but in 480i, I miss a little of the right and left side of the screen.

Wow, I'll check that out, because I have the problem that in 480p, in full it takes the full size of the screen but in 480i, I miss a little of the right and left side of the screen.

Actually I found out that there is an error in the Service Manual. It says 19 in ID7 for 34XBR960, and it does size 480i correctly. However my Harmony remote stopped working and the Index and Twin View also stopped working. I found an older version of the Service Manual, and that one said 25.

When I changed ID7 to 25 everything started working again and I still had the correct 480i geometry.

Great, Thanks for the tip! I will let you know if it worked out. ;)

03 - COLOR CALIBRATION AND BLACK LEVEL


"What makes sense to me: Set a “correct” color temperature of 6500K or “White Cloud” (my preference) "

"But Nature provides a nearly-perfect source for comparison: mid-day white clouds illuminated from the front by sunlight (about 6100K), seen thru an open window or screen, NOT glass."





My set is in the basement without a clear view of the sky. However, my computer monitor can be variably adjusted for temperature. If I display a white screen, could I use it for reference? 6100K, 6500K etc..

T.

My set is in the basement without a clear view of the sky. However, my computer monitor can be variably adjusted for temperature. If I display a white screen, could I use it for reference? 6100K, 6500K etc.Sure, but that makes one risky assumption: that the monitor's color-temp settings are anywhere near accurate. I just set up a 19" LaCie monitor for a client. I had a monitor calibrator, but I checked the "native" settings first, available thru the monitor's front-panel buttons. Result: too cold, and somewhat greenish. The calibrator resulted in a very neutral 6500K and great grayscale, nothing like the front-panel settings.

If you can mooch a monitor calibrator from someone you know who does graphic arts or color prepress (otherwise they cost $200-350), you can set up a good 6500K color profile for your monitor/computer combo, then use that as a secondary standard. Process takes only a few minutes and the software is self-instructing. (I have both a Monaco and a LaCie Blue Eye.) I have a small plastic-cased iMac from several years ago, and it makes a great portable color source, as the calibrators don't work on a TV monitor. (The software can't control the TV.)

I have compared more than one calibrated computer monitor with the "cloud" standard. It really is almost dead-on, the bright sunlighted parts being a little warm, the bottoms and dark-gray parts a little cool. But your *eye* gets it, and the TV really looks off-color if it's out of whack. But I know puffy dense clouds are a rare commodity in some seasons, and for some installations it's just impossible.

BTW KenTech, didn't I see a post of yours with a link to a compilation of your articles and posts? If so, I can't seem to get back to it. Or, maybe I didn't...

T.

I just like to say that have found almost all the info I need for the XBR800 and would just like to say THANK YOU (everyone) for all the info provided in these forums.
SRY!! if I spoke out of line. Just got alittle frustrated, but happier now:)

:o
Funny thing I like to mention about when I called their tech support on my XBR.
The so called tech I talked to wasn't to knowledgable. I called for the slight offset of the picture when on the RGB input and "her" answer was to go into the user menu in screen or setup tabs there should be an adjustment for horizonal position :confused: . When I told her that there is no such adjustment she replied "that was strange", she thought there was :confused: LOL!!!
Just thought I would throw that in here :eek:

BTW KenTech, didn't I see a post of yours with a link to a compilation of your articles and posts? If so, I can't seem to get back to it. Or, maybe I didn't...Sorry, you didn't. I think I will do this, however; but first I have to carefully read over each article and make necessary revisions. As my signature says, We all get smart slowly. I have gotten a bit wiser in the last few months, and I need to tweak a few details in the articles.

Another matter is that a very thoughtful member of this forum (ptchristensen) has clued me in to a website-posted service manual for the earlier KD-34XBR2 model of HD CRT-TV. Lo and behold, the service codes are similar to those for the XS and XBR units -- except that (I can barely contain myself!) there are *descriptions* for most of the codes. Some are cryptic, many really important ones understandable. So I now have to revisit my articles to see if I have substantially misjudged the purposes of some of the codes. I'm sure certain mysteries will be solved for those, nutty like me, who care. The URL follows. Fair warning: It's a 22MB PDF document. You'll need to right-click it and save to your hard drive.

https://www.vancebaldwin.com/shop/research_new/SON/KD34XBR2.pdf

Sorry, you didn't. I think I will do this, however; but first I have to carefully read over each article and make necessary revisions. As my signature says, We all get smart slowly. I have gotten a bit wiser in the last few months, and I need to tweak a few details in the articles.

Another matter is that a very thoughtful member of this forum (ptchristensen) has clued me in to a website-posted service manual for the earlier KD-34XBR2 model of HD CRT-TV. Lo and behold, the service codes are similar to those for the XS and XBR units -- except that (I can barely contain myself!) there are *descriptions* for most of the codes. Some are cryptic, many really important ones understandable. So I now have to revisit my articles to see if I have substantially misjudged the purposes of some of the codes. I'm sure certain mysteries will be solved for those, nutty like me, who care. The URL follows. Fair warning: It's a 22MB PDF document. You'll need to right-click it and save to your hard drive.

https://www.vancebaldwin.com/shop/research_new/SON/KD34XBR2.pdf
do you know if the kd-34xbr2 is simular to the kv-34xbr800, or are all the xbr models basically the same??

do you know if the kd-34xbr2 is simular to the kv-34xbr800, or are all the xbr models basically the same??No, they're not. But there are enough overlaps that one can deduce quite a bit of useful information from other service manuals. My interest in that earlier manual was to see the descriptions of certain codes that Sony still uses. But it also shows quite a few codes that are not used by the more recent XS955 and XBR960 sets, and those sets (which have identical chassis designs, except for different CRTs and a few extra feature-modules in the XBR) use entirely new codes not in the previous sets. Sony doesn't start over from scratch each time, but the sets *evolve.*

FYI, the service manual for the 40XBR800 *is* posted somewhere, but darned if I can remember where.

FYI, the service manual for the 40XBR800 *is* posted somewhere, but darned if I can remember where.
TY Kentech. I will search for.

Sorry, you didn't. I think I will do this, however; but first I have to carefully read over each article and make necessary revisions. As my signature says, We all get smart slowly. I have gotten a bit wiser in the last few months, and I need to tweak a few details in the articles.

Another matter is that a very thoughtful member of this forum (ptchristensen) has clued me in to a website-posted service manual for the earlier KD-34XBR2 model of HD CRT-TV. Lo and behold, the service codes are similar to those for the XS and XBR units -- except that (I can barely contain myself!) there are *descriptions* for most of the codes. Some are cryptic, many really important ones understandable. So I now have to revisit my articles to see if I have substantially misjudged the purposes of some of the codes. I'm sure certain mysteries will be solved for those, nutty like me, who care. The URL follows. Fair warning: It's a 22MB PDF document. You'll need to right-click it and save to your hard drive.


No sweat, just a moment of laziness. I'll work my way through them just the same, very informative.

Similarly, the service manual is great, very interesting reading! I hope alot of it will pertain to my 34hs420.

Thanks,
T.

[QUOTE=KenTech] the service codes are similar to those for the XS and XBR units -- except that (I can barely contain myself!) there are *descriptions* for most of the codes. Some are cryptic, many really important ones understandable. So I now have to revisit my articles to see if I have substantially misjudged the purposes of some of the codes. I'm sure certain mysteries will be solved for those, nutty like me, who care. QUOTE]

Very interesting descriptions of the codes !!
It will be illuminating to see how many of us have misjudged those codes ??
Too bad Sony did/does not do this with the service manuals for newer sets !!

On another subject. has anyone ever run across a service code to adjust picture level (white level) for 4:3 sets when in V-comp mode ?


Todd

has anyone ever run across a service code to adjust picture level (white level) for 4:3 sets when in V-comp mode?Not yet. I'll check tomorrow the listing in the vicinity of the JUMP command (which enables the 480i auto-switch to V-Comp). I'll bet there isn't one.

Changes in parameters (such as white level) are triggered by a change in (a) signal class, e.g. Tuner vs S-Video vs Component, etc; (b) input video mode, e.g. 480i, 480p, 1080i, etc; or (c) some user choice, e.g. picture mode, VM level, etc. Trouble is, full-screen DVD and anamorphic (v-comp) DVD are still both 480i and the same input, and 16:9 v-comp is a choice made by the TV in response to the presence of the "anamorphic flag" in the signal. That's if you are trying to compensate for the increased brightness of the v-comp display of DVDs.

For signals that are always v-comp, such as HDTV broadcasts, I think there is a way to tone down the white level (luminance gain) for those video types. I'll check it out.

Kentech
The manual you provided for the 34XBR2 is indeed very descriptive. I have owned the service manuals for the following units 32XBR200, 36XBR400, and the 34XBR910. I have noticed a decrease in detail , description and size in the more recent manuals. Perhaps Sony realizes that these manuals are no longer the domain of "Service Techs".
I did have a question regarding the Picture Size and Geometry Adjustments for Full Mode Adjustment on page 15 and 16 of the manual you provided. The VSIZ and HSIZ are set to 11.6 and 15.6 boxes respectively for the monoscope pattern. This comes out to a 4:3 ratio and not the 16:9 ratio you would expect for full widescreen mode even though the individual boxes look to have the 16:9 ratio. It this a monoscope pattern thing ?

I did have a question regarding the Picture Size and Geometry Adjustments for Full Mode Adjustment on page 15 and 16 of the manual you provided. The VSIZ and HSIZ are set to 11.6 and 15.6 boxes respectively for the monoscope pattern. This comes out to a 4:3 ratio and not the 16:9 ratio you would expect for full widescreen mode even though the individual boxes look to have the 16:9 ratio. It this a monoscope pattern thing ?

I have also read a lot of different service manuals and I have not yet read one where the height and width fit my 34XBR960. I must be because they cover several screen sizes in each service manual.

Here is what I did: Bought a plastic ruler, 35 inch. Measured my screen and did the math. You need to find and mark the center and the width of the black bars on 480. I mark them using some colored Post-it flags.

Then you can start aligning the different formats.

ptchristensen
My main concern was the aspect ratio used with the monoscope pattern as described in the 34XBR2 manual on page 15 and 16. I was expecting a 16:9 ratio yet the vertical and horizontal box count yielded a 4:3 ratio.

My main concern was the aspect ratio used with the monoscope pattern as described in the 34XBR2 manual on page 15 and 16. I was expecting a 16:9 ratio yet the vertical and horizontal box count yielded a 4:3 ratio.

You are right, but Full mode IS a stretched 4:3 signal on a 480 signal. In the later versions of the Sony service manuals they say that you start with a Full 480 DCS signal.

What is strange to me is that the boxes are stretched but the circles are not...?

You are right, but Full mode IS a stretched 4:3 signal on a 480 signal. In the later versions of the Sony service manuals they say that you start with a Full 480 DCS signal.

What is strange to me is that the boxes are stretched but the circles are not...?

Yes as I stated in an earlier post the individual boxes seem to have a 16:9 aspect ratio and yet as you point out the circles appear perfectly round.

I'm really new with Sony TVs and I'm having a hard time deciphering the service manual for my 30HS420.

I have a 720p computer video source coming in on the HDMI input (Input 7) at Full aspect ratio. The image appears great except for a vibrating top and the image not fitting on the screen properly.

I have read that I need to get into MID4 to adjust values for overscan except my 30HS420 doesn't HAVE a MID4. I don't think that I should adjust the horizontal and vertical stretching until I fix the overscan, right? Otherwise, I won't be fixing my vibrating top bar problem.

The bottom line:

How do I manipulate the service menu on my 30HS420 CRT to display a 1280x720 computer signal without overscan on the HDMI input 7 without a MID4 to adjust?

Thanks,
J

I just got a 36xs955 the other day and I'm really relieved to have found this site and thread. As its getting late now I plan to read the entire thing tomorrow. But since the gracious KenTech has the same model as me I'm hoping I could just indulge the board with one question - if I can 'fix' this issue to my liking I'm sure I'll stop there and never tinker with any of the other settings. ;)

Please bear with me as I'm not very knowledgeable but I learn quickly. What has me feeling very unhappy is the choice between FULL and ZOOM mode when watching non-HD broadcasts. In full I have black bars on all 4 sides (effectively making the display much smaller). If switched to zoom I lose some clarity and the left and right edges of the picture are cut off - which makes using the dish network on screen guide difficult.

Am I correct that I can make horizontal and vertical size changes to the full and/or zoom modes in code categories 2170d1 and 2170d2 ? Just wanna make sure I'm on the right track. Thanks

I fixed most of the geometry issues on my TV expect horizontal lines. In the center of the TV horizontal lines are straight. On the top half of the TV screen horizontal lines curve downward when they start getting to the edges. On the bottom half of the TV screen horizontal lines curve up towards the edges. Think of an eye shape. The problem gets very bad in the corners, but that is to be expected, I guess. I think my VPIN might be set to low in 2150D-1. I believe the VCEN in 2150D-1 will have no effect because it pushes horizontal lines in the same direction. Am I correct in thinking this? Am I overlooking any data registers that I should be considering? If anyone has had this problem and corrected it please let me know.

Am I overlooking any data registers that I should be considering? If anyone has had this problem and corrected it please let me know.

Attached is the geometry part of an early service manual. It has some excellent drawings and explanations. You should be able to get perfectly straight lines, except in the extreme corners. Those you can hide with overscan and blanking.

I have read that I need to get into MID4 to adjust values for overscan except my 30HS420 doesn't HAVE a MID4. I don't think that I should adjust the horizontal and vertical stretching until I fix the overscan, right? Otherwise, I won't be fixing my vibrating top bar problem.The "MID4" reference is misinformation. The adjustment of basic scanning parameters is contained within the 2170D code groups, and the attachment to ptchristensen's message is quite valuable.

Re MID1-3: I have hardly any personal experience with these three groups. The service-data descriptions are cryptic at best. Looking at the circulating Excel spreadsheet and its comments, I get the impression that MID1 may have something to do with the information displays, MID2 with a 480i picture inside a window on 16:9 sets, and MID3 with similar functions for 480p amd maybe 720p and 1080i. This may be speculation by others that has found its way into those spreadsheet listings; I can't confirm any of it.

MID5 is a completely different beast, dealing exclusively with image enhancement as referred by a pointer (MIDE) in the 2170P-3 tables.

Note that no one has yet found a way to make the "width" or horizontal-size adjustment for different scan situations. (I want to make an adjustment to the Zoom mode.) It appears like one size fits all: 2170D-2 #2/HSIZ. On the other hand, there are a couple of sdjustments for "height" in 2170D-1 #1/VSIZ and #13/ASPT, the latter being scan-mode dependent.

Don't ignore the "blanking" features that can be used as shutters to block the non-viewable edges of a given display. 2170D-3 #0-5 control the presence and width of these shutters for each edge.

If anyone want to experiment with MID1-3, I would be pleased to read about their experiences. As I have a 4:3 tube, much of it may not apply to me.

if I can 'fix' this issue to my liking I'm sure I'll stop there and never tinker with any of the other settings.Hah! Who you kidding?
What has me feeling very unhappy is the choice between FULL and ZOOM mode when watching non-HD broadcasts. In full I have black bars on all 4 sides (effectively making the display much smaller). If switched to zoom I lose some clarity and the left and right edges of the picture are cut off - which makes using the dish network on screen guide difficultRight! This is my problem, too, as mentioned in my previous post, above. I can get height correct for a Zoomed 4:3 broadcast on 16:9 HD, but not correct width. If you adjust width to correct Zoom, you will find it's now screwed up for regular viewing. There seems to be just *one* width adjustment: HSIZ in 2170D-2 #2.

If anyone can figure a soluition to this, they ought to get a prize! Maybe there's some "hidden" method using a code in the MID1-3 groups, but I don't know of it.

If anyone can figure a soluition to this, they ought to get a prize! Maybe there's some "hidden" method using a code in the MID1-3 groups, but I don't know of it.

I'm not going to claim the prize since I do not have a 4:3 TV to test on...but...!

Using the MID3, 0-3 setting you can adjust both width and height of the picture or window, for different screen modes, but only if the Frame/Raster is correctly centered in your Full mode. You can only adjust inside the existing frame or raster.

I'm desperately trying to "cook" the geometry down to some simple rules, which is absolutely impossible. Please remember that these are highly subjective rules based on a lot of tweaking on a 34XBR960.

Find the center of your TV and mark it using a post-it, or such. If you have a 16:9 set, mark also the width of the black bars on 480i input.

Rule 1) The width and height of the the frame or raster is set using the 2170D-1 and 2. You always start with your "default" input. If you have a 16:9 set you start with 1080i input. If your TV is a 4:3 you start with 480i. There are good instructions in the service manual for this initial setup. Most of the setting in these menues are global.

Rule 2) The width and height of the picture inside the frame, or the window, for the 480i also called DCS signal is adjusted in MID2, 0-3. These settings only effect the 480i signal.

Rule3) The width and height of the picture inside the frame, or the window for all other inputs and screen modes are set in MID3, 0-3. These settings are independent of input, screen mode and resolution.

Using the MID3, 0-3 setting you can adjust both width and height of the picture or window, for different screen modes, but only if the Frame/Raster is correctly centered in your Full mode. You can only adjust inside the existing frame or raster.

I'm desperately trying to "cook" the geometry down to some simple rules, which is absolutely impossible. Please remember that these are highly subjective rules based on a lot of tweaking on a 34XBR960.Thanks! You've inspired me to experiment on my 36XS955. I'm half-expecting that the whole "frame" issue may not apply to me with my 4:3 set, but we'll see. I'll report back.

KEN TECH

Have you used the test patterns from INHD to tweak 1080i?
I am wondering if they are accurate for tweaking my cable input.
I do notice some slight shifting when I pause the convergence and overscan patterns using my DVR.

I seam to have a bowing down of the horizontal line at the corners that I would like to correct if I can but I don't know if its possible without playing with the magnets on the CRT.

I have a SONY 40XBR700

Mizer

Have you used the test patterns from INHD to tweak 1080i?
I am wondering if they are accurate for tweaking my cable input.Sorry, what is INHD? I use exclusively off-the-air HD broadcasts, and analog cable for SD reception. I *wish* a local station would occasionally broadcast a setup pattern or two, especially color bars and grayscale steps.

Sorry, what is INHD? I use exclusively off-the-air HD broadcasts, and analog cable for SD reception. I *wish* a local station would occasionally broadcast a setup pattern or two, especially color bars and grayscale steps.

In the service menus for my 34XBR960 I have a menu called QM. This menu contains a massive amount of geometric patterns and color patterns.

And here comes the kicker: the geometric patterns are generated in 3 different input formats. 1080i, 480i and 480p. I have no idea how they do it, but I centered


If you are as lucky as me, to have this menu, here is what you do: In QM, PATN the entries from 1-20 is 1080i, 21-40 480i and 41-60 480p. You select the pattern for the adjustment you need to do - then you navigate to the menu you need for the adjustment i.e. 2170D-1 - the pattern stays on the screen. You make your adjustment and save. The pattern stays until you move back to the QM, PATN menu and reset it to 0.

The QM, CPTN contains around 20 color patterns. I have not used these since I leave the color adjustments to Ken and Glen.

And here comes the kicker: the geometric patterns are generated in 3 different input formats. 1080i, 480i and 480p. I have no idea how they do it, but I centered

And here is the full sentence:

And here comes the kicker: the geometric patterns are generated in 3 different input formats. 1080i, 480i and 480p. I have no idea how they do it, but I centered the picture, and adjusted for overscan on all three inputs using the patterns and when I compared with 480i input from the tuner and 480p from my DVD, they were spot on...!

This is cool! I just tried to generate the patterns on my kd34xs955 and all the patterns that you mentioned were there on my TV as well. No need to put patterns on a memory stick now to make adjustments. Out of curiosity, how do you know that 1-20 is 1080i, and 21-40 is 480i? I can tell that the last group is 480p, but I was wondering how you knew about the first two groups.

Would someone be able to provide me with the codes or a link to properly adjust for centering and overscan? By looking at the test patterns that ptchristensen found, I believe that my picture is not centered or has the proper overscan adjustment on any of the inputs.

Thanks.

This is cool! I just tried to generate the patterns on my kd34xs955 and all the patterns that you mentioned were there on my TV as well. No need to put patterns on a memory stick now to make adjustments. Out of curiosity, how do you know that 1-20 is 1080i, and 21-40 is 480i? I can tell that the last group is 480p, but I was wondering how you knew about the first two groups.

Here's what I do:
I select an 480i channel on my Motorola 6412 DVR cable box. I go to the QM menu and set the PATN to 1. Then I navigate to the menu I want to change i.e MID3. The service menu now shows me that the input is HD/Full/ATSC/1080i.

Conclusion: No matter what input you have selected the input will change depending on the pattern you select in QM/PATN.

Yesterday I forgot to say that after you make your adjustment and save, you have to move to the QM/PATN menu, change value to 0 and SAVE.

Would someone be able to provide me with the codes or a link to properly adjust for centering and overscan? By looking at the test patterns that ptchristensen found, I believe that my picture is not centered or has the proper overscan adjustment on any of the inputs.

First of all...the TV picture is always much more forgiving that a test pattern. If you do not have any problems with the way your picture and the overlaying logos and screen menues look...leave it alone.

Centering is important since the screen menues and the black bars might be offset. If they are not and if you do not see any shifting when moving between input formats...leave it alone.

Overscan is often needed to hide imperfections in the corners. I have adjusted to 4% overscan, to hide bending lines in the upper left corner.

Here are the basic steps that I would use:

1) Center the raster or frame, using 480i-Full or 1080i input. See Service Manual 2-8. KenTech #14

2) Overscan is corrected in 2170D-1/VSIZ and VPOS to adjust vertical size/position. 2170D-2/HSIZ and HPOS for horizontal. Remember that this is global, so you need to do a lot of saving and moving between input and formats.

3) Blanking, see KenTech #265.

Is there a way to get the "Wide Zoom" mode back to factory defaults? By mistake I copied my settings for "Full" over to it, now they are the same.

In short...No...!

Find all the "Wide Zoom" entries in 2170D-1 and 2 and entries in MID1-3, and reset them to the default settings.

Possible shortcut: Check 2170D-1, 11. If the value is 0, change to 1 and save. If that doesn't do it, you have to "walk the walk".

In the service menus for my 34XBR960 I have a menu called QM. This menu contains a massive amount of geometric patterns and color patterns.

And here comes the kicker: the geometric patterns are generated in 3 different input formats. 1080i, 480i and 480p. I have no idea how they do it, but I centered


If you are as lucky as me, to have this menu, here is what you do: In QM, PATN the entries from 1-20 is 1080i, 21-40 480i and 41-60 480p. You select the pattern for the adjustment you need to do - then you navigate to the menu you need for the adjustment i.e. 2170D-1 - the pattern stays on the screen. You make your adjustment and save. The pattern stays until you move back to the QM, PATN menu and reset it to 0.

The QM, CPTN contains around 20 color patterns. I have not used these since I leave the color adjustments to Ken and Glen.

Is anyone aware whether the 34XBR910 has such a pattern generating menu?
When I perused the Service Manual for the 34XBR2 provided by Kentech there was a reference to such a menu on page 23. I wondered if a similar capability was offered in XBR models that followed the 34XBR2. We have confirmed that with the 34XBR960 and the 955 model. Is the same true for the 34XBR910????

In short...No...!

Find all the "Wide Zoom" entries in 2170D-1 and 2 and entries in MID1-3, and reset them to the default settings.

Possible shortcut: Check 2170D-1, 11. If the value is 0, change to 1 and save. If that doesn't do it, you have to "walk the walk".

Thanks for the reply ptchristensen. I'll take your advice and perhaps just leave everything alone. I haven't noticed any logos being cut off, and 4:3 material appears to have the same amount of black bar on either side of the picture.

I've been a happy owner of 30HS420 TV for a few weeks now, and today I decided to go through service menus a bit, to try to fix some of the small focus issues I've noticed.

Most notably, when I display 720p picture from my computer on this TV, I notice that the left side of the screen seems unfocused compared to the right one. Following KenTech's instructions from his thread-starting posts, I've been able to correct this, and make the picture perfectly in focus all over the screen.

*However*, as soon as I've finished this, I've noticed a new problem on one test picture. Picture that displayed white thin vertical lines on the black background made me notice that the lines close to the left and right side of the screen have red color bleeding on the right side of each line, and blue bleeding on the left side of each line. It looks like when the beams are out of focus, these lines get a bit fuzzy on the edges and you can't see this convergence problem (is that what is referred to as a convergence problem?), but when I everything properly, it appears.

I have no idea how to fix this, and I've tried fiddling with the D-CONV parameters, but no matter how much I changed these I couldn't see any significant change, and certainly not something that would fix my problem :(

Any advice?

I have the same TV, the KV 30HS420, You mean like a blur on the sides? When dark colors ae mixed with light one? I too tried to fix that on the D-CONV menu and it didn't change a thing. The only way I found to correct this is by reducing the screen size a little. But it will affect the other video settings like my PS2, which is missing less than an inch on each sides of the screen so I have to enter the sm and readjust the screen size (HSIZ).

Not exactly the blur. You can fix the blurry edges by fiddling with the focus parameters (2170D-4 group). This more seems like a convergence problem, because the three beams don't converge at the same vertical line. Still, D-CONV didn't help with this at all.

Also, I've noticed that the focus on this TV seems to be relative to what picture it's displaying... WHen I'm outputting the 720p picture from my computer, I have the wallpaper in the background. When I put a small file listing window over that large background wallpaper picture, the TV shows that small window as much blurrier than if I stretch the window over the whole screen, or just make it bigger - all of a sudden, the text in the window (file names) became perfectly in focus and readable. This happens no matter what I do with focus parameters. Weird?

In the service menus for my 34XBR960 I have a menu called QM. This menu contains a massive amount of geometric patterns and color patterns.pt, you're an absolute Prince for discovering this!

It doesn't appear in any service manual I have seen. Enter service mode, and step *backwards* with the 5 key to see these groups. My 36XS955 has the service-menu group called "QM." It comes up in blue, not green, and AFAIK the values are never saved. Further, 0 - Enter reloads everything and kills the patterns, rather that your having to run the PATN count down to 0 before exiting. So does power-off.

#0 - INFO (values 0-7) has 7 screens of information about what is going on in the set. Nerds, rejoice!

#1 - PATN (values 0-80) has four groups of 12 patterns, both color and b/w, including a couple of amazing frequency sweeps. Each pattern is at value 20*n + p, where n is 0-3 for the group, and p is 1-12 for my pattern set. (The remaining values are pure-white screens.)

The groups on my set appear to be 1080i, 480i, 480p, and 720p. That last one may be exclusively component video, and the middle two NTCS color by a different pathway.

#2 - GPTN (values 0-12) are 11 different patterns of a decidedly different type on only the upper 70%of my screen, no matter the scan rate. Some are translucent. I don't know their specific purpose.

QM has more codes, but I haven't discovered anything about them yet.

The test patterns are inserted into the video channel *ahead* of all picture adjustments in 2170P-3 and MID5, so they can be used for evaluating these settings. I value the crosshatch patterns, but some of the others I will probably just look at for fun, as we don't know what pathway they take thru the long processing chain. I wonder what the sweep frequency extremes are for the #8 patterns in each group. Unfortunately the highest video frequencies are positioned at the right edge of the screen, where the horizintal focus is the worst!

I will bet these are for quick assessment of major probems by a service tech, and that we can trust perhaps only the crosshatch patterns and grayscale steps for calibration accuracy. For me, these will *not* replace the sophisticated patterns available from DVD via component input, nor memory-stick patterns, for center focus and other screen-center assessments. I don't trust the bright color bars at all! The gray step-scales are likely useful for assessing your grayscale linearity, unless you have a color bias on one side of the screen -- and then other patterns would be much better.

Kudos for the detective work!

I have no idea how to fix this, and I've tried fiddling with the D-CONV parameters, but no matter how much I changed these I couldn't see any significant change, and certainly not something that would fix my problem :(
What you describe here is exactly a dynamic-convergence problem, and making adjustments in D-CONV should really fix this. I have corrected my own problem with fringing on vertical white lines at the left and right sides of the picture with D-CONV #2 and 7, RSAP and LSAP. I watched medium-brightness lines at 1-3" in from the right side, tweaked RSAP, and watched the color fringing disappear. Same with the left side. The xSAP codes affect the whole height of the picture; if you want to affect just the top, middle, or bottom, see service manual for picture-descriptions of what codes to use.

Note that making the pattern very bright brings about a bit of misconvergence on its own, and so use lower brightness settings. If you have the marvelous "QM" code group on your set, see above messages for suggestions. The HD crosshatch pattern (#1) would be excellent for this.

When I put a small file listing window over that large background wallpaper picture, the TV shows that small window as much blurrier than if I stretch the window over the whole screen, or just make it bigger - all of a sudden, the text in the window (file names) became perfectly in focus and readable. This happens no matter what I do with focus parameters. Weird?Maybe not. If the file window is white, and your wallpaper is medium-toned, your whites may be set so bright that the scanning spot "blooms," a natural effect, blurring darker text against the white background. Further, the focus is not equal over all the screen: the right and left quarters of the screen will generally exhibit *better* focus of horizontal lines and *worse* focus of vertical lines -- it's the nature of the beast. The scanning spot is a slightly vertical oval at the center of the screen, but it changes to a skinnier horizontal oval at the left and right extremes and to other oval orientations at the corners and top/bottom extremes. Maybe you have to turn down the Picture slider a bit.

Sony's focusing method that I used as a basis for my Focusing article "balances" focus for different positions on-screen and for bright vs. dim picture detail. I learned the hard way that the wrong settings may make for a gorgeous dim picture, but bright detail smears all over the place. I redid mine for the right compromise, and after weeks of use, I'm still very pleased! (Getting mine right *required* me to twiddle that internal focus control, as mentioned in the article. Your set may need that touch-up, too. Take a look.)

Ken, thanks for your answers.

Thank you pt, I am very happy with the test patterns as well. I have a 36xs955 like KenTech.

KenTech, my test patterns 61 - 80 put the tv in 720p mode not 480i.

I was able to adjust overscan pretty easily using the patterns 'on the 7s' using MID3 for 1080i, 480p and 720p and MID2 for 480i.

Maybe not. If the file window is white, and your wallpaper is medium-toned, your whites may be set so bright that the scanning spot "blooms," a natural effect, blurring darker text against the white background. Further, the focus is not equal over all the screen: the right and left quarters of the screen will generally exhibit *better* focus of horizontal lines and *worse* focus of vertical lines -- it's the nature of the beast. The scanning spot is a slightly vertical oval at the center of the screen, but it changes to a skinnier horizontal oval at the left and right extremes and to other oval orientations at the corners and top/bottom extremes. Maybe you have to turn down the Picture slider a bit.

Sony's focusing method that I used as a basis for my Focusing article "balances" focus for different positions on-screen and for bright vs. dim picture detail. I learned the hard way that the wrong settings may make for a gorgeous dim picture, but bright detail smears all over the place. I redid mine for the right compromise, and after weeks of use, I'm still very pleased! (Getting mine right *required* me to twiddle that internal focus control, as mentioned in the article. Your set may need that touch-up, too. Take a look.)

Finally an answer to my problem :) Thanks Ken. What I know already is that my whites aren't that bright so just need to adjust in the D-Conv menu and the focus to see if the blur on the sides will be corrected.

Quick couple of questions from a newbie. I have a 34XS955, which I believe is very close in construction and electronics to the 34XBR960. Is the twin-view feature of the XBR960 simply electronically diabled in the 955, and thereby accessable and enable-able through service codes? It wouldn't be the first time a feature has simply been disabled for offer in a lower-tier device.

Also, OT, but which thread should I look in where I could find the channel lineup in my area? I plugged my digital cable feed into the back of my TV and discovered I could see all those digital stations without the RCN cable box....but it's difficult navigating when there's no logical order to the channels (i.e. 114.5, 89.50, etc).

KenTech, my test patterns 61 - 80 put the tv in 720p mode not 480i.Thanks for the correction. I didn't think of that -- but I didn't see an indication of it, either. That early XBR2 manual explains a couple of procedures for using the test patterns, and in each case the indicated that you should enter the video mode of interest *first,* then invoke the test pattern. I wonder if the *order* in which you do this matters in how the set uses the pattern.
I was able to adjust overscan pretty easily using the patterns 'on the 7s' using MID3 for 1080i, 480p and 720p and MID2 for 480i.The implication of more than one of the service manuals is that you should set up the 2170D centering and display-size adjustments (overscan) on a standard input before anything else. If that is not set up right, i.e. the picture is not centered on the raster, maybe tinkering with MID1-3 settings is a premature way to correct overscan *until* the 2170D adjustments are satisfactory as far as they go. But maybe you've done this already.

I was able to adjust overscan pretty easily using the patterns 'on the 7s' using MID3 for 1080i, 480p and 720p and MID2 for 480i.

Let me elaborate a little on what Ken answered to this one. Overscan should be set on the standard input, 1080i or 480i/Full on Widescreen and 480i on 4:3, using the 2170D-1 and 2.

Corrections for overscan is almost always set on tube based tv's. Let's say that from the factory the overscan is set to 3% on the raster or frame using 2170D-1 and 2. If you then further correct the overscan using the MID3 settings, that reacts only on the picture inside the frame or raster, you will actually add to the 3% already set.

It maybe a stupid question but

Can KV30HS420 change screen mode in 720p signal by adjust service menus a little bit?

Sony say it's HD signal so it will fix at "full" mode. but the problem is when I output a 704*396 video from my computer via DVI-HDMI cable the aspect rate is incorrect under this "full" mode. Huge black bar on both top and bottom.

I can change VSIZ and ASPT in 2170D-1 to fix it but they are global setting. It just drives me nuts.

It there any way to do it? switching screen mode in HD signal?

no...there is no way. period.

no...there is no way. period.

No way to change? Are you sure?
Is this same for all Sony TV like KD and XBR?

How come they are so stupid?

I switch from Philips 9110d to SONY due to ghosting problem, now Sony can't even display the picture correct?

I gotta change back to Philips then, the second raid of this model seems get rid of ghosting already.

Sony say it's HD signal so it will fix at "full" mode. but the problem is when I output a 704*396 video from my computer via DVI-HDMI cable the aspect rate is incorrect under this "full" mode. Huge black bar on both top and bottom.

I'm not quite sure that I understand...
- Is your picture "stretched" to fill the screen horisontally, with black bars on top and bottom?
- Is the PC signal the only 720p signal you send through the HDMI input?

If the signal is stretched you could try MID3, 2 and 3 to stretch the signal vertically. The MID3 settings are both input and signal independent.

I'm not quite sure that I understand...
- Is your picture "stretched" to fill the screen horisontally, with black bars on top and bottom?
- Is the PC signal the only 720p signal you send through the HDMI input?

If the signal is stretched you could try MID3, 2 and 3 to stretch the signal vertically. The MID3 settings are both input and signal independent.

Here is the original

http://home.comcast.net/~minwong/k1.jpg

KV30HS420 in HD mode
http://home.comcast.net/~minwong/k2.jpg

see the black bar at both top and bottom?

No, PC HDMI signal not always output 720p. if i play a 640*480 video, i can switch screen mode no problem.
I can see TV recognize 640*480 video as VGA signal, 704*396 as 720p signal in service menu


But the point is 1280*720 video do just fine.

So even i change setting in MID3, it still ruin the real 720p video since TV consider 704*396 is 720p.

Not like Sony, Philips can change screen mode any time in any signal, so there no such problem

Any suggestion?

In your picture, it seams that you are missing a little of the screen on the right side also or is it me?

In your picture, it seams that you are missing a little of the screen on the right side also or is it me?

Yes, actually it miss the pic on the both side about 8%.

After play with service menu, top and bottom just fine. No overscan whatsoever.
But no matter how I adjust, always miss some pic on the side.

I wonder if it has something to do with my video card setting. But I try that too.
No use. GF6800

We've just purchased 4 ea) Sony KV-SW29M50's, and we need to turn off the noise reduction. The Sony website claims this model doesn't exist, and I've never been able to get past their automated phone messaging to speak with a real person. These are "grey market" NTSC/PAL TV's, manufactured by Sony but not sold through normal distribution channels. They make a beautiful picture, but generate hideous noise reduction artifacts when the source is noisy.

Is anyone aware whether the 34XBR910 has such a pattern generating menu?
When I perused the Service Manual for the 34XBR2 provided by Kentech there was a reference to such a menu on page 23. I wondered if a similar capability was offered in XBR models that followed the 34XBR2. We have confirmed that with the 34XBR960 and the 955 model. Is the same true for the 34XBR910????


BUMP

I wonder if it has something to do with my video card setting. But I try that too. No use. GF6800

Two questions

1) Do you send "real" 1080i through the HDMI/DVI port?. If not, then you can still use MID3.

2) Does your graphics card support component output, and did you try?

Two questions

1) Do you send "real" 1080i through the HDMI/DVI port?. If not, then you can still use MID3.

2) Does your graphics card support component output, and did you try?

1, I don't know if it's real or not. I try 1280*720 video, it shows 720p on service menu. 1980*1080 shows 1080i, 704*396 shows 720p, 640*480 shows VGA.
All from HDMI output.

I can try MID3, but i'm confuse. How do I set MID3 settings signal independent?

2, Why do i need component while i have HDMI? Plus, GF6800 has a bad reputation on component output

1, I don't know if it's real or not. I try 1280*720 video, it shows 720p on service menu. 1980*1080 shows 1080i, 704*396 shows 720p, 640*480 shows VGA.
All from HDMI output.

I can try MID3, but i'm confuse. How do I set MID3 settings signal independent?

2, Why do i need component while i have HDMI? Plus, GF6800 has a bad reputation on component output

1) Since you send both the "good" and the "bad" 720p and the 1080i through the same input you cannot use the MID3 menues. In your first mail I got the impression that 704*396 were showing as 1080i, and if you didn't input other 1080i through HDMI you could have used MID3. But alas...!

2) Well you are certainly not giving the HDMI/DVI connection a better reputation.

If you expect your Sony TV to be able to handle all possible PC formats, you obviously have the wrong TV. Btw. I never before heard of a 704*396 signal, even on PC's, what format is that?

1) Since you send both the "good" and the "bad" 720p and the 1080i through the same input you cannot use the MID3 menues. In your first mail I got the impression that 704*396 were showing as 1080i, and if you didn't input other 1080i through HDMI you could have used MID3. But alas...!

2) Well you are certainly not giving the HDMI/DVI connection a better reputation.

If you expect your Sony TV to be able to handle all possible PC formats, you obviously have the wrong TV. Btw. I never before heard of a 704*396 signal, even on PC's, what format is that?

I download a lot of Japan anime from internet. The fansub groups rip the DVD or Japan HDTV program then add English subtitles.
Usually they release them in 704*396 which is perfect 16:9 format. It should fit my HS420 perfectly.
My pervious HDTV(Philips 9110d) has no problem with it at all, they look beautiful. I just don't understand why SONY make this so complicated.

I mainly use PC as my signal source until the HD-DVD or Blue-Ray come out and of course the XBOX 360.
Perfect compatible with PC is a main factor for me. Sony just let me down. Probably I shall stick with some brand that is more user friendly.

On mine, DVDs set in 480p and regular tv in "full" mode fills the whole screen. but while using my PS2 and GC, like you I miss like less than an inch on the sides in full.
How I corrected that? I simply adjust the screensize in the sm (HSIZ) to 44. My default setting is 51 and everything (DVD, PS2,...) fills the whole screen but I have a problem when doing so, blurs on the sides when dark colors and whites are mixed together appears for DVD and TV only(on the sides and edges only). I tried to tweak in the D-CONV menu but nothing happened. It's still there. Maybe it is the focus for the verticals but I'm not sure whitch menu to tweak.

Hi,

I got my 34XS955 a week ago. Yesterday I tried the Adjacent Colors image (from memory stick), posted earlier in this thread, and I noticed kind of ghost/shadow on the right side of each color.
My question is: Is it possible to fix this from the service menu, without affecting/breaking something else, and which code(s) I should be looking at?

Thanks,

Dimitar

Is anyone aware whether the 34XBR910 has such a pattern generating menu?JJ, you should just enter service mode to find out. I know of no document that will tell you this. Just get into service mode and step backwards with the 5 key to see if you run into a "QM" group of codes. If not after going back several steps, you likely don't have this feature. You can exit by turning the set off.

On mine, DVDs set in 480p and regular tv in "full" mode fills the whole screen. but while using my PS2 and GC, like you I miss like less than an inch on the sides in full.
How I corrected that? I simply adjust the screensize in the sm (HSIZ) to 44. My default setting is 51 and everything (DVD, PS2,...) fills the whole screen but I have a problem when doing so, blurs on the sides when dark colors and whites are mixed together appears for DVD and TV only(on the sides and edges only). I tried to tweak in the D-CONV menu but nothing happened. It's still there. Maybe it is the focus for the verticals but I'm not sure whitch menu to tweak.

Try adjusting QPDC, this adjusts the overall focus in the middle of the screen,it will help to focus the verticals in the middle of the screen.

Thanks, I'll check that out. I just went back to the 1st page of this thread and Ken already mentioned it. But I wasn't sure it was that.

JJ, you should just enter service mode to find out. I know of no document that will tell you this. Just get into service mode and step backwards with the 5 key to see if you run into a "QM" group of codes. If not after going back several steps, you likely don't have this feature. You can exit by turning the set off.

KenTech
I would not have asked this question if I would have had access to my XBR. I suppose I should have mentioned that I have been away and still am, for the better part of a month. However I did not feel obligated to do so. Consequently I am not able to investigate this personally. I was anticipating a pleasant surprise before I return. I have been in the Service Menu numerous times and I did not recall such an item. But then again I could have missed it. I was hoping someone who has present access to the 34XBR910 would have done this already and responded. Perhaps the lack of response means NO. I quess I will answer the question myself when I return. Thank you for your response nonetheless.

On mine, DVDs set in 480p and regular tv in "full" mode fills the whole screen. but while using my PS2 and GC, like you I miss like less than an inch on the sides in full.
How I corrected that? I simply adjust the screensize in the sm (HSIZ) to 44. My default setting is 51 and everything (DVD, PS2,...) fills the whole screen but I have a problem when doing so, blurs on the sides when dark colors and whites are mixed together appears for DVD and TV only(on the sides and edges only). I tried to tweak in the D-CONV menu but nothing happened. It's still there. Maybe it is the focus for the verticals but I'm not sure whitch menu to tweak.

You really shouldn't have to anamorphically squeeze your normal DVD and TV signal, just because you have to fit the signal from your PC....!

The service menu have so many entries that deals with this exact problem. You can adjust width and height independent of signal and input. The only thing you cannot do is differentiate between different signals if they are send in through the same input, and the Sony TV sees them as the same signal type i.e. 480p.

If you could tell me which signals you send though which inputs on the TV, and how the TV interprets the signals, we might be able to find a better solution for you.

The problem you have with fuzzy edges should be solved using the blanking shutters. See KenTech #265

Hi, I got my 34XS955 a week ago. Yesterday I tried the Adjacent Colors image (from memory stick), posted earlier in this thread, and I noticed kind of ghost/shadow on the right side of each color.
My question is: Is it possible to fix this from the service menu, without affecting/breaking something else, and which code(s) I should be looking at?

Suggestion: Go to your menu, turn off ClearEdge WM. If that doesn't help, you might have your Sharpness set too high. It should not be higher than 31.

Hi Kentech:

I'm new to the forum but I am very interested in the calibration of my XBR960. I cannot seem to download the pdf file with the good stuff in it. Could it be reposted somehow?

You really shouldn't have to anamorphically squeeze your normal DVD and TV signal, just because you have to fit the signal from your PC....!

The service menu have so many entries that deals with this exact problem. You can adjust width and height independent of signal and input. The only thing you cannot do is differentiate between different signals if they are send in through the same input, and the Sony TV sees them as the same signal type i.e. 480p.

If you could tell me which signals you send though which inputs on the TV, and how the TV interprets the signals, we might be able to find a better solution for you.

The problem you have with fuzzy edges should be solved using the blanking shutters. See KenTech #265

Thanks,
I'm use too it but I'd love not to enter the sm everytime I want to play videogames.
So here is how it is set when (HSIZ 51)
I use the Video 5 for DVD via component cables and my dvd player is set to 480p
Video 6 for PS2 via component cables 480i
Video 3 for the Gamecube via S-video cable.
DVD and TV have blurs on the edges when dark and light are mixed together. PS2 and GC, is Perfect.
When (HSiZ 44-45) The DVD and TV blurs are gone and but I miss an inch on the right and left sides for the GC and PS2.

I'll look on Ken Tech #265.

Thanks for your help.

Thanks,
I'm use too it but I'd love not to enter the sm everytime I want to play videogames.
So here is how it is set when (HSIZ 51)
I use the Video 5 for DVD via component cables and my dvd player is set to 480p
Video 6 for PS2 via component cables 480i
Video 3 for the Gamecube via S-video cable.
DVD and TV have blurs on the edges when dark and light are mixed together. PS2 and GC, is Perfect.
When (HSiZ 44-45) The DVD and TV blurs are gone and but I miss an inch on the right and left sides for the GC and PS2.

I'll look on Ken Tech #265.

Thanks for your help.

Try this:

1) Adjust HSIZ so that the DVD and TV is perfect, save.
2) Input the PS2 signal. In service menu go to MID2. Write down existing settings, then adjust DRHP and DRHS till the width of the input fits the screen. These two settings work a little different than HSIZ since the work from the side instead of from the center, so you have to adjust both. save.
3) Input the GC signal. In service menu go to MID3. Write down existing settings, then adjust VDHP and VDHS as described above. save.

That should do it...if not, report back and we will try something else....and you shouldn't need the blanking shutters.

The reason I think it might work is that you have separate input for all the different signals. MID2 only deals with 480i signals, MID3 deals with the rest.

Try this:

1) Adjust HSIZ so that the DVD and TV is perfect, save.
2) Input the PS2 signal. In service menu go to MID2. Write down existing settings, then adjust DRHP and DRHS till the width of the input fits the screen. These two settings work a little different than HSIZ since the work from the side instead of from the center, so you have to adjust both. save.
3) Input the GC signal. In service menu go to MID3. Write down existing settings, then adjust VDHP and VDHS as described above. save.

That should do it...if not, report back and we will try something else....and you shouldn't need the blanking shutters.

The reason I think it might work is that you have separate input for all the different signals. MID2 only deals with 480i signals, MID3 deals with the rest.

First of all, thank you for your time for looking into my problem. As soon as I'm at home, I'll try that and tell you, probably tommorrow if that worked out.
Thanks again for your help.

Went home during my lunch break and it worked :)
It work for the PS2 but the GC in MID3 didn't do anything.
So I when back a reajust in the MID1 because I changed the ones I had to my default setting like it was.
Everything fills the screen and I haven't yet notice any blur!

Big thanks again.

It work for the PS2 but the GC in MID3 didn't do anything.


Must be because the GC signal is 480i, so when you corrected the PS2 input in MID2 you also corrected the GC signal.

When centering the raster on my 30xs955, should I judge center by space on either side of the raster or a center point on a test pattern? The service manual is not clear on this, but I am assuming one would center based on equal spacing on either side.

When centering the raster on my 30xs955, should I judge center by space on either side of the raster or a center point on a test pattern? The service manual is not clear on this, but I am assuming one would center based on equal spacing on either side.

When centering the raster on my 30xs955, should I judge center by space on either side of the raster or a center point on a test pattern? The service manual is not clear on this, but I am assuming one would center based on equal spacing on either side.

You are assuming correctly...but...!

If all the width and height settings in MID1, 2 and 3 are at their default settings, the centering using 2170D-2, HCNT, would actually be correct, but that's usually not the way it works.

If you are following the instructions from the service manual, the picture will be compressed when you do the centering. If your image is equally spaced, and the center of the test pattern is close to the center of your screen, you are in good shape.

After the centering is done you should not touch HCNT again. I think the reason they start with this centering is that the HSIZ and VSIZ works from this locked center and out.

Thanks. I have not touched the MIDx settings yet. So does that mean centering as written in the service manual is ok. If I center based on side spacing the center of the cross hatch pattern (QM PAT #1) is not centered - is this ok? Also, as am I reading about MIDx settings I'm confused about setting image size/overscan. Should I be setting overscan to 0% using 2170D1-2 and then adjusting based on input via the MIDx settings? If you could reccomend a general procedure starting with centering raster and sizing using 2170D1-2 then moving on to the MIDx settings I would appreciate it. The interplay is still somewhat confusing to me.

Thanks. That's very helpful. A few more questions:
1) Are you saying that you set overscan in 2170D1-2 on the default input just enough to hide imperfections (hopefully only a few %) and then adjust overscan any further if needed using MIDx based on individual inputs? Is the goal to have a little overscan as possible.
2) When you say mark the width of the black bars for 480i, do mean by calculating and measuring out what a 4:3 image should be given my screen size/aspect? If not then the the measurements would be off, unless the image is already appropriately sized/centered.
3) Is it possible to use the built in test patterns (QM) and still set MIDx by individual inputs? I'v read somewhere that built in test patterns aren't always centered appropriately.

Thanks again.

Thanks. That's very helpful. A few more questions:
1) Are you saying that you set overscan in 2170D1-2 on the default input just enough to hide imperfections (hopefully only a few %) and then adjust overscan any further if needed using MIDx based on individual inputs? Is the goal to have a little overscan as possible.
2) When you say mark the width of the black bars for 480i, do mean by calculating and measuring out what a 4:3 image should be given my screen size/aspect? If not then the the measurements would be off, unless the image is already appropriately sized/centered.
3) Is it possible to use the built in test patterns (QM) and still set MIDx by individual inputs? I'v read somewhere that built in test patterns aren't always centered appropriately.

Thanks again.

1) I set overscan and basic geometry for all inputs, screen modes and resolutions using 2170D-1 and 2. After this basic adjustment you should only have to adjust slightly for size and position using MID2 for 480i and MID3 for the rest. Remember 2170D-1 and 2 defines the picture frame. Using MID2 and MID3 you adjust the picture inside the frame for different inputs, screen modes and resolutions.

2) If 4:3 is centered correctly now, just mark the spots where the black bars begin. If it's not then you have to do the math.

3) Yes, read KenTech #429.

1) I set overscan and basic geometry for all inputs, screen modes and resolutions using 2170D-1 and 2.

It seems almost all of these settings (2170D-1/2) are global, so you have to strike a balance for different resolutions/inputs/screen modes, correct? Then the question is which input do you use as the "default" I had been using the QM test patterns for 1080i and 480i which seems to be equivalent to the ATSC input. It does not seem possible to use these patterns for setting other inputs. The only problem is that there is no 480i normal mode and I've also noticed that the 480i full test pattern, when centered (I was using HPOS and SCRL since these can be set for 1080i and "others") is way off from other inputs. Should I forget about these patterns and just pick my most used input and use that to do initial sizing/centering, geometry?

Another question. As you suggested I started setup with a 1080i test pattern since I have a 16:9 set. After getting overscan settings how I liked it on 1080i with 2070D-1/2 HSIZ/VSIZ, I discovered that 480i normal content had too small a horizontal size (I calculated 19.5 inches for my 30" WS set) so I had to readjust HSIZE for the correct width. Was this the right thing to do?

Thanks again.

1) I set overscan and basic geometry for all inputs, screen modes and resolutions using 2170D-1 and 2.

It seems almost all of these settings (2170D-1/2) are global, so you have to strike a balance for different resolutions/inputs/screen modes, correct? Then the question is which input do you use as the "default" I had been using the QM test patterns for 1080i and 480i which seems to be equivalent to the ATSC input. It does not seem possible to use these patterns for setting other inputs. The only problem is that there is no 480i normal mode and I've also noticed that the 480i full test pattern, when centered (I was using HPOS and SCRL since these can be set for 1080i and "others") is way off from other inputs. Should I forget about these patterns and just pick my most used input and use that to do initial sizing/centering, geometry?

Another question. As you suggested I started setup with a 1080i test pattern since I have a 16:9 set. After getting overscan settings how I liked it on 1080i with 2070D-1/2 HSIZ/VSIZ, I discovered that 480i normal content had too small a horizontal size (I calculated 19.5 inches for my 30" WS set) so I had to readjust HSIZE for the correct width. Was this the right thing to do?

Thanks again.

1) Sorry I wasn't real clear on that one. What I meant to say was that almost all the settings in 2170D-1 and 2 are global. So by adjusting these you adjust all inputs, screen modes and resolutions.

You almost did it the way I did:

- I set the "default", in this case 1080i using 2170D-1 and 2.
- I adjust the "Full" 480i using MID2. I do not go back and adjust any of the 2170D-1 and 2 settings after I have done my "default" setup, that would just throw off the adjustments I just did.
- I adjust the rest using MID3

After this I test all the signal for "real". 1080i using a test signal from my Comcast DVR through DVI-HDMI. 480i from the TV tuner and 480p DVD signal through component cables.

Yesterday i did some tweaking in an effort to recalibrate my black level.

Before i had SBRT at 20 and UBOF at 3 for video 5-6 component inputs interlaced and progressive.UBOF at 0 for video 1-4 and UBOF at 0 for cable tv.

Now for about 3 months, it's kind of funny how i thought i had a perfect black level when in fact i came to realize that doing some more test patterns with DVE and the ramp test patterns there was no detail in dark areas.I immediately noticed that all this time when i finally plugged in my dreamcast that i hav'nt played in a while to video3 the black level was crushed, no detail at all too dark.huh?

It's funny how i did'nt realize i was sacrificing shadow detail for dark black levels,i did'nt realize i was lossing shadow detail untill now.It seems video 1-4 and cable input were way off too dark.So this leads me to beleive that my dvd player was darker than all the other inputs.

Is it common to raise UBOF 4-5 notches to get shadow detail? is my SBRT setting too low at 20? This is very frustrating, the DVE disc does'nt help much either in explaining the other test patterns for brightness and contrast.

I need help guys...

Hi Crochunter,

I have the 30xs955. I have my SBRT at 33, and the UBOF at 0 or 1 depending on input and scan rate. I have plenty of shadow detail, and the BTB patterns on DVE look just right.

Hope this helps

33 is way too high for me, by going that high UBOF is useless to me on mine.

I need kentech's help, thanks for your input but i think kentech knows a bit more to help.

for instance i would like to know how to use the other brightness test patterns on DVE and would like to know how to use them and what to look for.

My SBRT is set to 28. It used to but at 31.

Isn't that kind of high to you?

Is black even black at that level?

Is it common to raise UBOF 4-5 notches to get shadow detail? is my SBRT setting too low at 20? This is very frustrating, the DVE disc does'nt help much either in explaining the other test patterns for brightness and contrast.First, it's *very* important to understand that black level is established in several places that interact -- or add together, depending on how you look at it.

(1) Globally, 2170P-1 - RCUT-BCUT contribute as much as SBRT, #4 below. If you raise them all up a couple of notches, you have raised black level as if you had raised SBRT.

(2) 2170P-1 - YOF is an offset that affects black level. Here, the settings are dependent on input video rate *and* video class (YC, component, HDMI, MS/ATSC tuner). I have left them for now set as they came from the factory.

(3) 2170P-4 - BLK, if anything but zero, invokes a dynamic black-level feature that will drive you nuts. It's 0 (off) in Pro mode, but you have to make it zero for the other modes (highly recommended). Until you do this, experiment with black level *only* in Pro mode.

(4) 2170P-1 - SBRT is the fundamental global black-level setting. When I set my drive and cutoff values (RDRV thru BCUT) for the first time, I set SBRT to 31, and then adjusted the RGB cutoffs (#1, above) for a reasonable black level, in the right ballpark. It was originally *way* off for my purposes.

(5) 2170P-3 - UBOF is for balancing black levels among your variious input classes, video rates, and picture modes. If you do set one of them to 0, make sure it's the input/source with the highest black level or you'll have nowhere to go with the others if you have to make them darker. One notch of change here = about two notches in SBRT.

Yes, it is complex, but there are different methods you can use to get a good black-level adjustment.

First, be aware that standards are very sloppy or nonexistant for black level over component cables. The exact voltage for black (green cable) differs from player to player, from one manufacturere to another, and also depends on whether you have set any features on the player, such as lighter-darker, super-black, extended black, etc. My Normal setting for my retired (and excellent) Toshiba 3650 was *very* high; but the Normal setting on my new Panasonic S97 is about the same as broadcast and S-video. Go figure. All you need to do is balance the black levels with the 2170P-3/UBOF settings.

Here is a method that will work. If you want to establish an SBRT setting at its center (31),

(1) play a PLUGE pattern from AVIA or DVE over S-video;
(2) set SBRT to 31;
(3) adjust 2170P-1 - RCUT thru BCUT for a neutral and correct black level. If you have already gotten those cutoffs just right, you might try changing them each by the same amount, so color is not affected. (No guarantees.)
(4) move the DVD player to the component inputs, and trim black level with UBOF for that video rate.

Now . . . *that* gets you in the ballpark, and it doesn't matter if, after tinkering in great detail, you end up with SBRT a few points different or whatever, you have gotten the settings near the middle of their ranges.

One could argue that the UBOF balancing settings could be started off at 3, so you can go either way to make an adjustment. I have no evidence that there are "correct" settings for UBOF; they're for compensating for differences. So one could start with UBOF at 3 for each input, then do steps 1-3 above, and then refine the adjustments for UBOF. I don't think it matters a whit how you do it, but I would confine myself to balancing out SBRT, the RGB cutoffs, and UBOF in Pro mode. (Leave YOF alone.)

The argument for setting SBRT in the middle of its range isn't a strong one. It feels "right" to me, a career electronics and computer engineer. I can't argue for changing anything if you already have a set of satisfactory values for the cutoffs, and SBRT is at, say, 15. My set came with SBRT at 20! The service-manual charts, however, show defaults for different model TVs at 31 for SBRT. So 31 is obviously okay, and I was starting over with the cutuff settings. So I followed the above procedure to great satisfaction.

Example settings for my 36XS955, approx 6500K white, color Neutral, DVE pluge:

UBOF = 3 or 4., depending on input. Mostly 4. (DVD player on V5 was 0, now 4.)
SBRT = 31
RDRV - BCUT = 43-27-21 - 40-21-22

Another example for friend's 34XBR960, approx 6500K white, color Neutral, DVE pluge from late-model Toshiba player:

UBOF = untouched from factory; unknown.
SBRT = 31
RDRV-BCUT = 40-27-24 - 38-20-26

Note that the *sum* of the three cutoff settings nearly match, at 83-84. But there were color differences between his set and mine, with red-blue differences in the settings, eay to adjust. I started with *my* settings on *his* TV, then tweaked them for correct color. Worked like a charm. Used a transportable small computer with a calibrated 6500K screen as a standard.

This discussion has been about *just* black level ("brightness"). Contrast ("picture") is another set of adjustments entirely, overlapping the above only in the three RGB drive settings. I have found new ways to balance the contrast between different sources, too, and the settings are in different places: 2170P-4 - SPIC (for different input classes) and 2103-1 - SCON for balancing SD broadcast against S-video inputs (say, your VCR).

Further, no matter what I have said before, there are two places where sharpness is very significantly controlled *in addition* to 2170P-3 and the MID5 table. I'll write that up soon. I have some substantially improved image settings to recommend for different sources, based on these (for me) recent discoveries. Surprising improvements for SD broadcast and SD over S-video, and for DVD on component inputs, less so for HD broadcast.

Have I clarified this, or made matters worse? Gimme feedback!

Ken, First off thank you very, very much for your detailed response:)

(3) adjust 2170P-1 - RCUT thru BCUT for a neutral and correct black level. If you have already gotten those cutoffs just right, you might try changing them each by the same amount, so color is not affected. (No guarantees.)

Not sure exactly what these did before and was afraid to touch them since everything looks good the way it is.Should i adjust these?

Also by highest black level input do you mean the blacks when they are smokey?

So if i'm getting this right, i should first calibrate s-video with video1-4 since it's the same, with SBRT then use UBOF to balance the rest of the inputs?

I have the 30xs955. I have my SBRT at 33, and the UBOF at 0 or 1 depending on input and scan rate. I have plenty of shadow detail, and the BTB patterns on DVE look just right.And an important point is this: If those BTB patterns look just right for your DVD player, but you aren't getting good (or too much) shadow detail on, say, HD broadcast (which is fairly consistent) or SD broadcast (which is not consistent), you just tweak UBOF for that input, and go on watching to see if it's improved. So easy once you have the *basic* black level down cold for one predictable input.

You see that's what confuses me the BTB bar, how should i go when adjusting black level should i adjust it untill it's visible, or do i adjust it untill it justs becomes invisible and blends with the background?

The DVE disc when it tells you can get really confusing, could you if possible show me some pics of your tv with those test patterns to tell me what to look for.

I noticed my PS2 does'nt have the BTB bar, what do i do to calibrate that for my videogames?or is that only affect the dvd part of the PS2 and not the games?

Ken, First off thank you very, very much for your detailed response:) You're welcome very, very much!
Not sure exactly what these did before and was afraid to touch them since everything looks good the way it is. Should i adjust these?If your darkest grays are satisfactory in color, meaning they're a neutral gray, not reddish or bluish or something, then I would leave them alone. Make the major adjustment with SBRT, no matter what value it ends up with. That guarantees you won't screw up the color. (I'm only guessing that changing RCUT-BCUT by the same amount leaves the color untouched. Maybe they actually don't track perfectly.)
Also by highest black level input do you mean the blacks when they are smokey?Yes. Smoky-gray blacks indicate a *high* black level for that source (coming into the TV), and you should consider lowering UBOF for that input or leaving it at zero and lowering SBRT.
So if i'm getting this right, i should first calibrate s-video with video 1-4 since it's the same, with SBRT then use UBOF to balance the rest of the inputs?That really does seem like a good strategy, as I certainly can't say how black behaves on your DVD player's component outputs. But if you know that DVD/component black is higher than DVD/S-video (i.e. its blacks are smoky), then you can set the component DVD connection to UBOF = 0 (and ignore DVD/S-video), and the other inputs and broadcast will likely be set to a higher UBOF. You might have to go through this process twice to get it right.

You see that's what confuses me the BTB bar, how should i go when adjusting black level should i adjust it untill it's visible, or do i adjust it untill it justs becomes invisible and blends with the background?

The DVE disc when it tells you can get really confusing, could you if possible show me some pics of your tv with those test patterns to tell me what to look for.

I noticed my PS2 does'nt have the BTB bar, what do i do to calibrate that for my videogames?or is that only affect the dvd part of the PS2 and not the games?

What about this, thanks this is my final question.

You see that's what confuses me the BTB bar, how should i go when adjusting black level should i adjust it untill it's visible, or do i adjust it untill it justs becomes invisible and blends with the background?

The DVE disc when it tells you can get really confusing, could you if possible show me some pics of your tv with those test patterns to tell me what to look for.
On DVE, go directly to Title 12, Chapter 2 for pluge bars and gray steps. The three black bars on either side of the gray steps are what you pay attention to. Adjust black level under your normal viewing conditions (fairly dim, but not lights-out) so that the outer bars (blacker-than-black) are *not* visible, the middle bars *are* visible, and the inner bars are only *slightly* visible -- just barely.

For folks with the AVIA disk, go to Advanced > Video Test Patterns > Gray Scale & Levels > Black Bars & Log Steps. Adjust black level so the moving bar to the left of the step pattern is just barely visible.

I think you'll find that you will end up tweaking real video sources a bit up and down from here with the Brightness slider, depending on how they were produced, even for HD and DVDs. The important thing is to please your eyes for whatever you're watching. But this is a good starting point for Brightness = 31.

I noticed my PS2 does'nt have the BTB bar, what do i do to calibrate that for my videogames?or is that only affect the dvd part of the PS2 and not the games?I don't know what to recommend, given that I don't play games or have a gaming device available. I would assume that calibration is less critical, as you are not trying to display photographic reality, here. I would think the darkest tones in the game are "black," and that you can deduce what those are by moving the Brightness slider up and down. If you consistently end up preferring Brightness at, say 35, you could knock UBOF up two notches for that input to compensate.

Ken you have made my day!

Thanks a bunch buddy, i'll try these out later:)

One more question just a quick one;)

what dvd's do you recommend that are good test for black level?

I heard "The Terminator" is one of them and pirates of the carribean any others?

One more question just a quick one;)

what dvd's do you recommend that are good test for black level?I have never thought of theatrical DVDs that way, believe it or not. There is a defined standard for DVD black, and it is present on both DVE and AVIA. Having set *that,* I have simply moved on to enjoying playing whatever DVDs I acquire. I have read that a few DVDs actually have a few shadows that are BTB, but I imagine one would spot that when viewing: just up the Brightness a bit. I watch many modern high-quality releases without adjustment of black level, and they seem just right. Others, I tinker.

Image quality is another story, and I am collecting a few titles just for judging my TV setup, cables, and (recently) a new DVD player. "Monsters, Inc" is at the top of the list for me. There's so much fur and other fine details rendered digitally from the CGI sources, not optically, that it's hard to beat. I have also been looking at the suggestions here:

http://www.filmsondisc.com/ISF_Reference_DVD_Program.htm

No conclusions yet, and I don't yet have an external sound system for the TV. I'll have to comment on black-level-critical DVDs another time.

Those two i mentioned above are excellent choices especially "The Terminator" that move was remasterd so good it looks like brand new movie, the detail and fidelity will astonish you!

sure there is a few scratches and specs in the presentation but what can you do, it's an old movie and they could only do so much with what they had.

"Pirates of the carribean" is deffinately a good one, many claim it to be a good torture test for black level.

I just picked uo a 30xs955 and im ready to tinker. problem is all the wonderfull files that were posted earlier in the thread are not downloading. Any way they can be re posted? I very much appreciate your level of commitment to this set!

Let me elaborate a little on what Ken answered to this one. Overscan should be set on the standard input, 1080i or 480i/Full on Widescreen and 480i on 4:3, using the 2170D-1 and 2.

I'm just getting to the point (100+ hours on the clock) where I can start tweaking my 36XS955. For me, the major issue is major overscan when viewing the 1080i (16:9 on the 4:3 screen) mode.

pt's post suggests that I need to set overscan for the 480i input first -- then move on to 1080i. Is this right?

If so, are there separate control menus for the 1080i overscan, or do I still use 2170D-1 and 2? Do I also need to adjust the "shutters" I've read about in other posts?

I'm using the HDMI interface to connect my HD TiVo, feeding the HDNet test pattern, if that makes any difference.

Thanks, in advance.

I'm just getting to the point (100+ hours on the clock) where I can start tweaking my 36XS955. For me, the major issue is major overscan when viewing the 1080i (16:9 on the 4:3 screen) mode.

Who told you that overscan is bad - Overscan is your friend...!

I have used months to perfect the geometry on my 34XBR960, and I still end up with 4% overscan. Sometime in the future I hope to find a magnet expert, so that I can fix the imperfections in the corners, and hopefully end up with less overscan.

Up to 5 % you do not really miss anything, thrust me. The station logo might be in a slightly different position, but it's a lot better than curvy lines in the corners. As long as the overscan is equal in width and height and below 5% you are fine.

You actually only set overscan once using 2170D-1 and 2 displaying the screen "default" signal, in your case a 480i signal. You might then have to use MID2 and MID3 to center and align the other signals.

I have some substantially improved image settings to recommend for different sources, based on these (for me) recent discoveries. Surprising improvements for SD broadcast and SD over S-video, and for DVD on component inputs, less so for HD broadcast.


KenTech - I have benefited so much from your earlier ones - I eagerly await this one. (Since most of what I watch is SD over S-Video.)

Are there any service codes for horizontal convergence for the XBR960? I can only find the vertical ones in this thread. The vertical ones Kentech listed really helped a lot.

I have made a recent observation on the first screen that appears when I enter the Service Menu on my 34XBR910. Normally I would not linger on this screen; instead going to the device name area I wish to tweak. This first screen shows the word VERSION on the top left and the word SERVICE on the top right, with a 0 0 listed listed between them. If you change it to 0 1 by pressing the 3 key on the Remote you will get a Subscreen with the words Software Version and the values:
M16C : 1.1C
MID-X : 1.012
VIPER : 2.00
I am wondering how these version values compare to other 34XBR910 owners. Wondering if any differences here have any bearing on the disparities that some of us have presented when tweaking. Any comments?

Who told you that overscan is bad - Overscan is your friend...!

==> snip <==

You actually only set overscan once using 2170D-1 and 2 displaying the screen "default" signal, in your case a 480i signal. You might then have to use MID2 and MID3 to center and align the other signals.

I understand the concept of overscan "hiding" ragged raster edges in SD. But I was under the impression that the HD signal should be "edge-to-edge." So, I was thinking there must be a separate overscan/offset for the letterbox HD display that appears within the 4:3 area of my Sony (36XS955).

Overscan looks a little excessive on 480i 4:3 material, compared to other sets in my house. But the *apparent* overscan on that 16:9 letterbox is much greater, if the HDNet test pattern can be believed.

Thanks for the tips...

Overscan looks a little excessive on 480i 4:3 material, compared to other sets in my house. But the *apparent* overscan on that 16:9 letterbox is much greater, if the HDNet test pattern can be believed.

Since I have a 16:9 screen and I never tried correcting overscan on a 4:3 set, I was only speaking "in theory".

I will leave it to the several 955 users to guide you...!

Since I have a 16:9 screen and I never tried correcting overscan on a 4:3 set, I was only speaking "in theory".

I will leave it to the several 955 users to guide you...!

Actually your previous posts (and separate thread) have already helped me...a lot. Thanks!

Hopefully, KenTech -- who is a 36XS955 owner -- can clarify the procedure for setting 16:9 vs. 4:3 overscan.

P.S. Bottom-of-screen graphics and "tickers" are sometimes cut off in 16:9 mode, and the HDNet pattern is definitely missing something on all 4 sides.

Great thread, thanks for posting the info on the service menu. I downloaded the PDF's and have tried repeatedly to press the button combo to enter the service menu. No matter how fast I hit the buttons, it will not let me in. What is your secret to getting in there?

I have two set specific questions for you guys also. I have set up the picture quality as best I can using AVIA via component DVD and also the old Video Standard LD via Svideo. I was impressed with how good picture and tint were right out of the box on this set.

My first question is about contrast setting. My old tv was a piece of cake to set, the needle pulse bent noticeably so I simply set contrast just below the point of bending. The power supply on this set must be a lot more robust, I can crank contrast up and the needle doesn't bend. Barring that, it is saying to set contrast where the white looks "really white", but I am not sure what that means. I wound up setting it at 28, just a bit below the default of 31.

Second question is about the screen setting. I want reverse letterbox to show up on 4:3 pics, and I want the true picture on all 16:9 and widescreen movies. No distortion or any of that. I thought I had it set right as my 4:3 pics were being reversed letterboxed, but all my DVD's were showing up inside a rectangle in the center of the screen. I can set widescreen viewing to "full" and then they stretch out, or "full zoom" but I want to make sure I am seeing the movie as intended.

D-CONVERGANCE

Well guys turns out you can actually fix the convergance on these sony sets,i have the 34hs420 and did some touch up yesterday and there was a very noticeable improvement in sharpness and clarity of the picture.

Theres only one problem though, it's for adjusting vertical lines only, for horizontal lines you will have to live with what you have since they can only be adjusted with magnets.

Not sure if anyones tried these convergance tweaks, but i say be my guest and tell me how you do.

Matt Suzuki~

Great thread, thanks for posting the info on the service menu. I downloaded the PDF's and have tried repeatedly to press the button combo to enter the service menu. No matter how fast I hit the buttons, it will not let me in. What is your secret to getting in there?

Just keep trying you will get in trust me;)