THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries [Text View] - Page 5

KenTech

02-17-06, 04:07 PM

The “Neglected” CXA-2103 Image Filters and Their Significant Effects on Image Quality

I have personally, and in print, glossed over these parameters so far. My mistake, but certainly in accord with the philosophy in my signature slogan!

There are five parameters in service-mode’s 2103-1 group that very significantly alter the video image for (at least) all 480i sources. 480p, 1080i, and 720p sources do appear to pass through this chip, and so they’re not affected. But SD broadcast from air or analog cable, as well as DVD thru component at 480i, certainly are. Therefore, these parameters have to be included in the suite of settings that determine image quality for these video sources. DVD at 480i thru V5/6 is a near-perfect way to play DVDs thru this set, trumping HDMI IMHO. (Can’t comment on 480p thru component.) Sorry I haven’t played these settings up enough in my charts. (There are equivalents for these parameters for a second tuner in 2103-2, but I don’t have them enabled in my one-tuner 36XS955.)

The five parameters are #6-SHAP, #7-SHF0, #8-PREO, #16-SSMD, and #19-PPHA. The final two are subtle *timing* parameters that can significantly affect overshoot and ringing. Numerous experiments and some Sony documents have led me to the following tentative descriptions:

#6-SHAP is a sharpness/edge enhancer with a very coarse effect. (By coarse, I don’t mean “bad.”) The older XBR2 charts indicate that zero effect is in the middle of the range (probably 7), but it’s easy to see from simple experiments that zero effect = 0 in our DA-4-based sets. This edge enhancement doesn’t ring, but it’s very strong. I found that, in my case, only 1 notch of SHAP “filled in” a dip in the mid-video frequencies (coarse detail) but that anything more added an unpleasant, false edginess, making video look, well, like “TV.” On NTSC broadcast, such as well-produced local news, a SHAP of only 1 added an almost 3D realism that helped my eyes focus on the image. I checked the effect with much finer sources from DVD, and I like the effect there, too. So SHAP=1 for now. (Original settings for my set were up in the 5-8 range. Yikes!)

#7-SHF0 has a profound effect on the image even if SHAP=0! To see this, put up the Sharpness screen from the AVIA disk, set the four-parameter group to 1-3-1-3 (including SSMD), vary SHF0 from 3 to 0, and watch what happens to the central crossed-lines pattern! Sony’s description is that it sets the “sharpness f0” at frequencies from 2.5 to 4.0MHz, but the effect seems much greater and more complex. Settings of 1 and 0 give rise to unacceptable ringing and/or overshoot in the test pattern. SHF0=2 is very good for ordinary NTSC images, giving them a “clarity” that is attractive. But, seductive as that is, comparison between SHF0=2 and =3 shows that the finest textures are slightly softened with SHF0=2. That effect that may please some folks; however, I found that it was detrimental to sharp DVD images, and so I choose SHF0=3 for sure for that input (V5). (Five values may be stored for different inputs: RF, CV-YC, V5-V6, HDMI, and ATSC/QAM.) I am still evaluating SHF0=3 vs 2 for NTSC video. I’m leaning toward 3.

#8-PREO “locates” the edge sharpening relative to the original edge. PREO=1 is centered, =0 biases it to the left, and =2 and =3 push it progressively to the right. With SHAP=0 and SHF0=3, PREO has a very slight ringing effect, minimized at 0 or 1; I’ll bet that slight ringing is invisible on real video. That said, if you prefer SHAP=0, I would set PREO to 0 or 1 just to minimize this ringing (why not?).

Careful tests of very fine DVD video appear to indicate that settings other than PREO=1 *slightly,* (maybe, possibly, if I’m not dreaming) soften the very finest detail. That’s all I’ll say. I see no advantage to any setting except 1, since that makes SHAP act like a true unsharp-mask. I keep testing, and I keep going back to 1.

#16-SSMD. I know I have flip-flopped on this one. In the digital world inside the 2103 chip, it seems to push things around a bit, and the image is affected in subtle ways. Having chosen a value for SHF0 and in combination with PPHA, it affects image overshoot and ringing on sharp edges and, therefore, image clarity.

#19-PPHA. This seems to locate the entire image and all of the above effects relative to a fixed clock, subtly changing ringing and overshoot. Certain combinations of SHF0, SSMD, and PPHA are *absolutely* clean on my set! Default in the chart is 7 for the same 5 inputs mentioned in the SHF0 description, above, and that’s how my TV was originally set. But you can freely tinker with this, varying it from, say, 5 to 9 while watching a pattern.

I tested 12 combinations of SSMD=0, 2, and 3 (1 looks too weird!), and SHF0 from 0 to 3. SHAP=1 and PREO=1. I examined the AVIA Sharpness crossed-lines pattern. I looked at real DVD-video, particularly Monsters, inc, and Matrix Revolutions, both of which are rich in fine detail and textures that are not exaggerated on the DVD (well, mostly). Later I examined these again with newfound knowledge about the PPHA parameter.

I also noted how these filters were screwing with the high-frequency phase by observing the AVIA test pattern Resolution 200 TVL, and paying attention to the vertical wedge patterns. At the narrow end you can see what happens as the line pitch approaches the theoretical limit of resolution for the DVD’s 720dpi sample rate: A gray Y-shaped pattern tops the narrow end of the wedge, and its symmetry is an indicator of how linear the phase is as that limit is approached.

The combinations that work best, IMHO, are these, in order SHAP-SHF0-PREO-SSMD-PPHA:

1-3-1-3-6: Zero overshoot and zero ringing, with astounding clarity on all sources. Perfect “Y”-pattern phase symmetry. Gorgeous DVD reproduction. This will be my preferred choice for now. With these values, especially PPHA now at 6, an increased SHAP setting acts like a perfectly symmetrical unsharp mask. Hooray! Nice to know it’s there.

1-2-1-3-7 and 1-2-1-2-7: Excellent clarity for NTSC sources, very “clean.” Slight loss of finest textures on DVD, maybe perceptible even on great NTSC quality. Kills ringing and overshoot on AVIA Sharpness pattern, but skews gray “Y” slightly to left on 200 TVL screen. Not a bad choice for NTSC broadcast and may please some. Try it. (PPHA probably needs fine-tuning.)

1-3-1-0-7 has more overshoot than 1-3-1-3-7, and the latter looks better to me on real video. So my previous advice to leave SSMD set to 0 (the “automatic” position) may not be the best after all — but the differences are small. (PPHA probably needs fine-tuning.)

I guess we should finally add a "minimum-effect" setting of 0-3-1-3-6 for those who want zero edge sharpening from this chip. (PPHA may need fine-tuning.)

[Revision late 2/17: Have added new material about the PPHA parameter. Further tests may alter the values for PPHA in all but the first and last combination recommendations above. But now I’m wondering why I would choose *anything* but 1-3-1-3-6!

I will be very interested in any feedback.

jeri534

02-17-06, 05:16 PM

Has anyone who fixed their overscan in 1080i, how did you fix it for 480p? Cause I have my 1080i overscan fixed at about 2.5% all around, but when I go to 480p, the right side is is at around 5%...anyone know what I can do?

Nitewatchman

02-17-06, 07:27 PM

Note: 2/18/06 2:15am updates : updated with more accurate info, as #1). I didn't copy some of my "scribbled" notes very well, and #2). after another session with the set tonight, made some minor changes/improvements with various settings.

I will be very interested in any feedback.

Hope you don't mind a bit of it from me here, since we've also been talking about these via PM. Thought I should mention that, as otherwise the "timing" of this post might seem odd to folks, given it's only been a couple hours since your post.

DVD at 480i thru V5/6 is a near-perfect way to play DVDs thru this set, trumping HDMI IMHO

I don't have a HDMI source, yet -- but for what it's worth, and for whatever reasons and, unlike what some others(inlcuding yourself) seem to be getting with 480p DVD via V5/V6 component inputs ---- After looking at it in a little more detail per my last post on this, on my set(KD34XBR960), and with my DVD player at least, I'm still extremely happy with 480p DVD via component - Not a big difference between 480p from DVD player and 480i with say "Cinemotion", but, I'm still getting a tad better results IMO from 480p from DVD player than 480i. Maybe I'm still missing something/not seeing something important about this, though.

(There are equivalents for these parameters for a second tuner in 2103-2, but I don’t have them enabled in my one-tuner 36XS955.)

Note that relevant 2103-2 SHAP~PREO and SSMD settings are applicable for the Twin-view RIGHT window only on my XBR960, and if I recall correctly perhaps the very tiny "index" feature "windows" as well. The same is true for 2103-2 SCON/SHUE/SCOL. The left twinview window, and the "primary" video in "index" feature is controlled by the 2103-1 settings.

There are seperate settings available in 2103-2 for "RF", and "CV-YC" for these settings, and, sources using the "RF" or CV-YC inputs are the only inputs you can use with the right twinview window, which is allways a "4x3" window as well. I can't use Internal ATSC/HD receiver, or DVD via V5/V6 in Right window for instance, only the left window, which can be used for any source, and which will be a 16x9 window for 16x9 sources, ATSC, or even NTSC 16x9 video from widescreen, so called "anamorphic" DVD's, and it will be a 4x3 window for 4x3 source signals.

Haven't spent a lot of time with this and the "right" Twinview window, but I am currently using 2103-2/SHFO=3, PRE0=1, and SSMD=1 for both RF+CV/YC Twinview Right window. Note that I have not completely "settled" on what I'm going to use for 2103-1/2103-2 "SSMD" for various sources yet.

Although I like 2301-1 SHAP=1 for all sources that use "DRC" best, and don't think at this point I would want to use anything higher than that elsewhere for 2103=1 - Higher values for 2103-2/SHAP do seem useful for Twinview's right window in my case. Note that a "seperate" sharpness slider setting, or AFAIK, another other "sharpness" offset is not available specifically for the right twinview window. So, I currently have 2103-2/SHAP=4 for CV/YC, SHAP=5 for RF.

Given the same source signal used for both windows+given the applicable settings that involve the left window(2103-1 SHAP~PREO for instance), so far, and given my current settings that effect the left window, this is the closest I've gotten to "matching sharpness" of the right window with the left -- For instance --- Lower SHAP values in 2103-2 result in the right window being "blurrier" than the left.

I found that it was detrimental to sharp DVD images, and so I choose SHF0=3 for sure for that input (V5). (Five values may be stored for different inputs: RF, CV-YC, V5-V6, HDMI, and ATSC/QAM.) I am still evaluating SHF0=3 vs 2 for NTSC video. I’m leaning toward 3.

At this point, FWIW, I'm preferring SHFO=3 for everything effected by these settings -- It's not as noticable as 480i DVD via component, and it is hard to say -- but at times I think I am also noticing improved detail with it vs. SHFO=2 - especially from very "clean" OTA NTSC sources, and perhaps via SD Satellite receiver or via S-video as well.

#16-SSMD...... In the digital world inside the 2103 chip, it seems to push things around a bit, and the image is affected in subtle ways. In combination with SHF0, it affects image overshoot and ringing on sharp edges. I tested 12 combinations of SSMD=0, 2, and 3 (1 looks too weird!), and SHF0 from 0 to 3. SHAP=1 and PREO=1. I examined the AVIA Sharpness crossed-lines pattern. I looked at real DVD-video, particularly Monsters, inc, and Matrix Revolutions, both of which are rich in fine detail and textures that are not exaggerated on the DVD (well, mostly).

I also noted how these filters were screwing with the high-frequency phase by observing the AVIA test pattern Resolution 200 TVL, and paying attention to the vertical wedge patterns. At the narrow end you can see what happens as the line pitch approaches the theoretical limit of resolution for the DVD’s 720dpi sample rate: A gray Y-shaped pattern tops the narrow end of the wedge, and its symmetry is an indicator of how linear the phase is as that limit is approached.

While I seem to be getting, and noticing the exact same things as you are with 2103-1/SHAP~PREO, ---- nevertheless, in some cases I seem to be getting something a little different with settings for SSMD and the "Y" symmetry at the narrow end of the wedges in the AVIA TVL 200 resolution pattern, and in just one case concerning overshoot.

For instance, as one example -- 480i DVD via V5/V6(Zenith DVD2381 player :

The combinations that work best, IMHO, are these, in order SHAP-SHF0-PREO-SSMD:

1-3-1-3: Very slight overshoot and very slight ringing, but excellent clarity on all sources. Perfect phase symmetry. Gorgeous DVD reproduction. This will be my preferred choice for now.

This paragraph updated with accurate info on "overshoot", as I'd copied it incorrectly from my scribbled notes, orginally : In my case, 1-3-1-3 results in nothing even resembling a "Y" occuring at the narrow end of the AVIA TVL200 wedges, and, also results in increased overshoot as compared to 1-3-1-0 -- With 1-3-1-0 I do have a fairly nice "Y" in the narrow end of vertical wedges, albeit it's a slightly "unsymmertical" "Y".

1-3-1-1 results in a very symmetrical "Y", but noticablely more overshoot, and perhaps even a tad bit of ghosting(but WAY to right of some edges) occuring for some reason. However(and I'm not sure I "trust this" much, hooking DVD player up via S-Video, 1-3-1-1 produces minimal ringing or overshoot, and a VERY symmetrical "Y" at the end of the wedges.

Note that also (480i using V5), 1-3-1-0 allows one to see "lines" in the lower right circle labeled "6.75MHZ", regardless of DRC setting used(Interlaced/progressive or cinemotion). those lines, for instance turn into "noise" with 1-3-1-1. Update: checking this again(and writing it down this time!) 1-3-1-3 also turns out to be one of the few "combinations" of settings with mostly "lines" and little noise in the lower right circle, although still more noise than 1-3-1-0.

Thought maybe the differences we are getting on this perhaps could involve output of DVD player(and maybe that has something to do with it) -- However, Also noticed that with 1-3-1-3, (for lack of a better way to describe it), I get sort of a "wavy" look to text in a small ID bug from 480i ATSC SD source via internal tuner, which is "fixed" with 1-3-1-0. 1-3-1-1 fixes it too, but with unacceptable ringing present.

When I get a chance, I'll try hooking up a different, JVC(it's 480i only, but believe it does use a Genesis/Farojuda chip) DVD player I have here and see what I get on these with it.

Update: Ok, tried the other player -- It's a JVC XV-N3SL - I'd used it before to see how various color settings "matched" for 2 different DVD players(and saw no differences), but, "sharpness"/EE wise -- I forgot how ugly this thing looks with the XBR960 -- WOW! Talk about oversharpening ... The player itself has a "picture control" window with settings such as variable "sharpness"(seems I can have "oversharpening" or "undersharpening" anyway) settings, and suffice it to say, nothing I do with this thing, or 2103-1 SHAP~PREO or SSMD will, for instance let me see anything like a "Y", symmetrical or not at the narrow end of the "vertical" TVL200 wedges ... What I think is interesting however, is :

#1). On another set (Toshiba 34HF84 - which uses Genesis/Farojuda Gm6010 IC - which I think is probably the main ingredient in it's scaling/deinterlacing/etc) I use it with, this JVC DVD player actually works quite nicely with it. Interestingly enough, my Zenith DVD player also works fairly nicely with the Toshiba - at 480i or 480p, but unlike with the XBR, I like 480i from the Zenith a little better with it ....

#2). Presumably, involving either one or both of the following : A). The difference in output between one DVD player and another, even with both DVD players outputting 480i, and/or b). The difference in how XBR960 is handling the "different" outputs from 2 different model DVD players.

If nothing else, the much "wider" differences I'm seeing from 480i output from these two different models of DVD players certianly has me less concerned about the differences from Ken's results I'm seeing concerning "symmetrical Y's" and SSMD values, or various combinations of SSMD+SHFO settings.

I think this also may illustrate that it also might be wise for folks to be careful about applying "calibration" settings to other inputs/sources which you "find" with your DVD player .... In my case, I'm certianly thankful for the internal "QM" section of SM test patterns for ATSC 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i !

:end update

1-2-1-3 and 1-2-1-2: Excellent clarity for NTSC sources, very “clean.” Slight loss of finest textures on DVD, maybe perceptible even on great NTSC quality. Kills ringing and overshoot on AVIA Sharpness pattern, but skews gray “Y” slightly to left on 200 TVL screen. Not a bad choice for NTSC broadcast and may please some. Try it.

I'm getting the same thing as you are with the "Y" on this one, and 1-2-1-2 isn't much different. However, I'm getting more ringing and overshoot with 1-2-1-3 or 1-2-1-2 than I am with 1-2-1-1, which also makes for a very symmetrical "Y".

Although I'd spent quite a bit of time with 1-2-1-0 and generally liked it, I haven't spent much time with programming material trying out SHAP~PREO 1-2-1 with SSMD=3 yet.

------------------------------------------------------

Any thoughts concerning why we seem to be getting something a little different with SSMD, and or perhaps the "combination" of certian SHFO+SSMD settings ? (thanks ahead of time)

For "completeness" note that I am I'm restarting TV after 15 minutes before looking at these. And, I am using the image processing settings(2170P-3/3d-comb where applicable/etc) as recommended in your Post 707 updates. Exceptions perhaps being :

#1). Update: I did have 480i V5/V6 set to use MIDE column 57"(I have MID5 columns set up as described in your PDF attachement to Post 707), but tonight I decided #60 is better for 480i via component from my DVD player. If we are using "different" MID5 columns, don't think it really seems to effect what I'm getting with the "Y"'s in the TVL-200 wedges.

#2). I'm currently mostly using VM at "Low" or "medium" in user menu, and VML=2 or 4", with VMCR~VMDL(mostly) at 0-3-0-6. Although I expect it probably does not effect this, do note that I should have checked to see if the VM settings had any effect on this, and probably should have turned VM to "off" before looking at the test patterns, but in this case I did not.

GlenC

02-17-06, 08:22 PM

I don't have a HDMI source, yet -- but for what it's worth, and for whatever reasons and, unlike what some others(inlcuding yourself) seem to be getting with 480p DVD via V5/V6 component inputs ---- After looking at it in a little more detail per my last post on this, on my set(KD34XBR960), and with my DVD player at least, I'm still extremely happy with 480p DVD via component - Not a big difference between 480p from DVD player and 480i with say "Cinemotion", but, I'm still getting a tad better results IMO from 480p from DVD player than 480i. Maybe I'm still missing something/not seeing something important about this, though.This is a typical situation where you need to evaluate the picture from the DVD output at 480i, 480p and 720p/1080i if it will upscale. Depending on the processor in the DVD player, de-inerlacing and scaling can be better in the TV. The XBR960 can produce an excellent picture on V5/V6 with a 480i signal. Never discount this option because all de-interlacing and scaling is not the same.

Nitewatchman

02-17-06, 09:31 PM

The XBR960 can produce an excellent picture on V5/V6 with a 480i signal. Never discount this option because all de-interlacing and scaling is not the same.

Typical or no, I agree it most certianly does produce an excellent picture via V5/V6 with a 480i signal from the DVD player. I don't believe I said otherwise, anywhere in my post.

The same is true for that matter from 480i ATSC(from internal OTA ATSC receiver) or, NTSC sources from RF(OTA in my case) or CV/YC inputs(I use S-video mainly with S-VHS deck and Dish 311 receiver), or what it also does with 720p source signals -- in my case from 720p ATSC OTA broadcast sources ....

In other words, what I said was, with my particular *DVD player, IMO, it's just a tad better with 480p from player than 480i from the same player, or for that matter in comparision to another(but certianly "cheaper"), newer JVC player(480i only) I own. I didn't say 480i from the DVD player didn't also provide an "excellent" pic, it does.

And, again that is just my opinion, which also does happen to include evaluations/comparisons of 480i/480p from the same DVD player(including comparisions of 480i with DRC interlaced/progressive+cinemotion and various "custom DRC pallate" settings in addition to the factory default Pallate #1) concerning various results with various test patterns, such as the AVIA TVL resolution patterns.

Why that is, I don't know. I do know I've allways been happy with the 480p output from this particular DVD player, including in most cases with other displays I've used it with. Maybe it's just something wrong with my eyes, though, who knows ;)

* - It's A older Zenith Model # DVD2381 from around ~2000~2001 - and no, it doesn't upscale to 720p or 1080i.

If there is some sort of "deficiency" I'm not aware of concerning how XBR960 handles 480P signals, I'd certianly be interested in hearing about it.

jeri534

02-17-06, 09:51 PM

KenTech

02-17-06, 11:44 PM

Important revision to post #1024 regarding the 2103 parameters:

For some reason, an important timing-phase parameter that affects these digital filters escaped my attention and the article: #19-PPHA. Please re-read above article for revisions. There is a very critical interactiion among SHF0, SSMD, and PPHA. Having chosen a value for SHF0, SSMD and PPHA then can be optimized, and there is a likely setting for those two that trumps all others in clarity and freedom from artifacts. For me, it was (for SHF0=3) SSMD=3 *and* PPHA=6, one notch down from the 7 default, which had clear overshoot after an edge.

Using the settings for SHAP-SHF0-PREO-SSMD-PPHA of 1-3-1-3-6, I may have discovered a true Sweet Spot! I'll be back with more later, but now . . . the Olympics in HD!

KenTech

02-17-06, 11:58 PM

Any thoughts concerning why we seem to be getting something a little different with SSMD, and or perhaps the "combination" of certian SHFO+SSMD settings ?Hah! More homework needed! Please read recent "discoveries" about the PPHA parameter, above. Consider "tuning" PPHA for any combination of SHF0 and SSMD, and see what happens.

GlenC

02-18-06, 12:56 AM

Why that is, I don't know. I do know I've allways been happy with the 480p output from this particular DVD player, including in most cases with other displays I've used it with. Maybe it's just something wrong with my eyes, though, who knows ;)This is what it is all about, finding the combination that looks best with the equipment you have.

You have determined the deinterlacing in your DVD player works/looks better than the one in the your XBR960, mission accomplished.

loadams

02-18-06, 02:05 AM

Allright, but why wouldn't it make sense to tame 2103_1 first (480i), then make the secondary adjustments with 2170P_3, then fine tune with the mid/pop tweaks as necessary ? (sharpness, edge enhancements)

Your latest finding, Ken, I think, has been the most important of all. Looking at my service manual, out of the box, my setting for SHUE in 2103_1 was 11 for rf (erred to green) and 5 for cv/yc (erred to red). So let's don't talk about color decoding settings. What was Sony thinking about? SHAP is 9 for rf, what? How much oversharpening does rf need? What is tuned here that is compensated for later in the chain? Anyway SCON,SCOL,SHUE are tamed to middle point, 7, middle of the slider, and later tweaked in 2170P_3 for my purposes. Then, of course, comes color decoding again.

Back to the original purpose. Tonight tested your latest findings, with great sucess. RF is much improved with a 2103_1 SHAP setting of 5, from the default of 9. You're right, looks kinda 3D-ish. 480i thru component looks great at 0 and SHFO set to 1, and tweaked later in 2170P_3. Mind now, I'm using MIDE - 0, and the "cone" or "flower" has disappeared on a 200tvl all together.

Even better findings. My old, trusty vcr, thru composite, with 2103_1 SHAP set to 4, is performing like new again. Gone is the overblown, over unsharp masking edges that will plague VHS tapes. Looks dvd-ish......... well not.

I'm doing a little testing of my own, in the audio section, with a spl meter. Figured you will get there eventually. I thought I had a decent 5.1 system, but heck, this 40XBR will run the onboard down to an audible 28 hz, not bad IMO. Most of the parameters deal with "equalizing" the sound that FWIW, Sony did a decent job in this department. The only one that does not seem to behave is the "steady sound".

DRC. Can't wait for this one. Cheers.......

loadams

02-18-06, 02:34 AM

If there is some sort of "deficiency" I'm not aware of concerning how XBR960 handles 480P signals, I'd certianly be interested in hearing about it.

I might be guilty of starting that one a while back.

480p fullscreen (4x3) thru my set with a Sony DVP-NS715P was awesome, but for me, if I'm watching anything compressed to 16x9 (960i), I've lost the benefits of the "no flicker" 480p scan. Just for me, seemed sense to make the jump and tinker.

Nitewatchman

02-18-06, 03:03 AM

This is what it is all about, finding the combination that looks best with the equipment you have.

I agree -- besides, it's fun -- well, it's fun for me anyway :)

Hah! More homework needed! Please read recent "discoveries" about the PPHA parameter, above. Consider "tuning" PPHA for any combination of SHF0 and SSMD, and see what happens.

Will do Ken, thanks ! I'm eager to try this, but I'd better start counting sheep right now ;)

Note that In addition to some slight improvements I found, I also discovered tonight in a "SM session" with the set that I originally copied some of my scribbled notes incorrectly concerning some of my post on 2103-1 and I have just updated that post with the correct info. Most importantly+specifically, I copied down+originally posted wrong info concerning what I was getting with "overshoot" with SHAP~PREO+SSMD at 1-3-1-3 vs. 1-3-1-0 with 480i DVD via component --- follows is the updated, corrected portion of the post(the bolded section shows the change) :

In my case, 1-3-1-3 results in nothing even resembling a "Y" occuring at the narrow end of the AVIA TVL200 wedges, and, also results in increased overshoot as compared to 1-3-1-0 -- With 1-3-1-0 I do have a fairly nice "Y" in the narrow end of vertical wedges, although its a slightly "unsymmertical" "Y".

KenTech

02-18-06, 08:21 PM

New experiments with the 2103-1 parameters, SSMD and PPHA

I have come to believe that, because we appear to be fooling around with timing variables here, we are modifying the *quantizing* that goes on in the digital sampling process. As a result, *some* of the effects one sees on-screen are somewhat incidental or accidental: certain patterns of specific periodicity are emphasized by certain combinations of SSMD and PPHA. (You can see this in the “lumpiness” of some of the frequency-sweep patterns.) So one has to be careful about drawing hasty conclusions about overall image fidelity. In particular, parts of vertical lines just slightly off-vertical can change apparent sharpness just by being repositioned in the (invisible) sampling grid: a line that straddles two pixels will appear wider and blurrier. So one has to pay attention to random textures, too.

I warmed up my 36XS955 and restarted it. I examined patterns from AVIA that were hard-edged (menus, Sharpness screen) for signs of rank overshoot and ringing, and made a chart of the best SSMD/PPHA combinations for SHF0=3 and 2. Then I put in one of the best-possible DVDs for an acid test of texture: The Matrix, second release. In the facial closeups there are amazing skin textures and hair stubble, and there are fine clothing textures, both random and ribbed. Assorted fine lines, high-contrast edges, and patterns add to this detail goldmine. Oversharpening is almost completely absent, as are MPEG-2 artifacts. I compared the combinations I knew were relatively free of ringing and overshoot for their ability to faithfully and realisticaly reproduce material from this and a couple of other DVDs. I set SHAP=1 and PREO=1 for the whole test, and turned off VM. Sharpness was set to 28 or 30.

Values that work well for SHF0=3 in order SSMD-PPHA: 3-6, 2-6, 1-10, 0-6, 0-7, 3-13. (Note that “working” PPHA values are usually 6-7 apart.)
For SHF0=2 (much less important to me): 2-14, 3-14.

Now these values may be specific to *my* TV owing to its specific timing characteristics, so no one should be frustrated by an inability to repeat these exact numbers. The important thing, I think, is to realize that there are likely 2-3 values of PPHA that work for a given value of SSMD on your set, and that one of them will probably look best when tested with a real DVD. Some of my choices slightly emphasized coarse detail, as though I had increased SHAP by one notch. A couple of them were so similar, I wondered if coosing between them was completely arbitrary. Ultimately the movie-DVDs helped settle it, but we’re not talking big differences, here!

My preferences, in order, turned out to be (for SHF0=3): 2-6, 0-7, 1-10. 2-6 seemed to give the most balanced appearance between coarse and super-fine detail. (Warning: Using SSMD=1 causes a slight red-intensity drop on my RF input, but nothing on V5 for the DVD player.)

So . . . using the “long version” of the number string from the earlier article, SHAP-SHF0-PREO-SSMD-PPHA, these groups are:

1-3-1-2-6 (favorite), 1-3-1-0-7 (slightly coarser), and 1-3-1-1-10 (possibly the sharpest for DVD, not quite as natural-looking as 1-3-1-2-6, and not recommended for RF/Cable input). For the slightly lower bandwidth SHF0=2: 1-2-1-2-14.

I am going to live with a couple of these for a while, particularly 1-3-1-2-6, and see if the benefits are visible across a variety of program types. I hope this detailed description actually helps someone “tune” their set, too — just be prepared for *different* sets of preferred settings from what I got.

ADU

02-19-06, 01:28 PM

Interesting how we all seem to be going along similar, but different tracks on this sharpening stuff. Lately I've been getting more away from looking at patterns and focusing more on the effect the basic 2170P-3 parameters have on actual video content, and beginning to reintroduce some VM and Sharpness (via 2170P-3/SHOF) back into the equation, now that the effects of the different edge controls are a little easier for me to distinguish.

I think I've finally nailed down exactly what SYSM does as well. All it really does is modify the coarseness or scale of the effect from other edge controls. 1=Coarse, 2=Medium, 3=Fine. This is why the Sharpness control has a dramatic effect with SYSM=1, but creates only relatively minor looking changes with SYSM=3.

Which SYSM setting you choose may simply depend on the coarseness of the effect that you desire from other edge parameters with a given signal. Let's take the 2170P-3/F1LV and CTLV controls as examples...

If you pause on a frame from Attack of the Clones with a good range of contrast and detail, and set F1LV to its max setting of 3, then vary SYSM from 1 to 3, you should be able to see the change in coarseness between the three SYSM settings pretty well. With F1LV=3, SYSM=1 should create some fairly bright, coarse and noticeable (and rather ugly-lookin) edge artifacts. If you increase Sharpness, these edge artifacts will become even more pronounced and uglier-lookin. Now change SYSM to 2. The edge artifacts become smaller and more tightly confined. Raise SYSM to 3 and the artifacts become even smaller in scale and less apparent. The effect of both F1LV and Sharpness becomes progressively smaller and less noticeable/dramatic in scale as you increase SYSM from 1 to 3.

CTLV is a little more subtle, but you should see the same shrinkage of effect with that as well. If you set CTLV to the max of 3, then flip between the three SYSM settings you should see the softening effect on color detail change from being pretty broad and soft (SYSM=1) to more tightly confined and harder to see (SYSM=3). The "strength" of the softening effect on colored edges may not be changing, but the "area" effected becomes narrower and more confined as you increase SYSM.

The change in behavior of CTLV can be easily seen on this pattern (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=51872) as well. Set SYSM to 1, and then raise and lower CTLV from 0-3, and should see changes in saturation on both the thin and fat colored lines. Change SYSM to 2 and 3 however, and you'll see the desaturation effect of CTLV become more limited to just the thinner lines.

KenTech

02-19-06, 02:25 PM

I think I've finally nailed down exactly what SYSM does as well. All it really does is modify the coarseness of some other edge controls. 1=Coarse, 2=Medium, 3=Fine. This is why the Sharpness control has a dramatic effect with SYSM=1, but creates only relatively minor looking changes with SYSM=3.

Which SYSM setting you choose may simply depend on the coarseness of the effect that you desire from other edge parameters with a given signal.The major problem with this proposition is that it's fairly easy to collect evidence that seems to contradict it, indicating that the effects of SYSM are more complex than that.

The best example has recently been discussed in exchanges on this forum: that the setting of SYSM changes *qualitatively* how the Sharpness control affects edgy detail and textures. Absent enabling any other enhancements, setting SYSM=2 plus increasing Sharpness increases medium, fine, and finest detail in increasing proportion, like a video frequency (and therefore spatial frequency) ramp-up. But if SYS=3, the action of the Sharpness control doesn't just shift to a higher frequency renge of influence: it's character changes. Medium-fine detail, and maybe fine, increase as you increase Sharpness, but very fine detail is *not* enhanced. Fine textures are, in fact, somewhat masked by an exaggerated presence of mid-fine detail. (The weave of the sweater becomes more obvious, but it appears no more furry, i.e. the fibers are no sharper.)

Further, on perfectly sharp edges, SYSM=3 plus turning Sharpness *way* up results in a bright line of overshoot following an edge. If SYS=2, however, these bright lines adhere to *both* sides of the edge, pre- and post-transition, like true unsharp-masking. The fact that the entire picture shifts a bit to the right with SYSM=2 also reveals that a delay has been added to the path for the basic image, allowing pre-edge enhancement. Without that delay (SYSM=3), pre-edge enhancement is impossible.

So I believe a comparison between SYSM=2 and 3 reveals a more complicated effect than simply that SYSM=3 affects higher spatial frequencies than SYS=2. For that matter, the evidence is that exactly the opposite is true! "Smooth" seems to be its only virtue.
but the "area" affected becomes narrower and more confined as you increase SYSMFor some parameters this may be true. I haven't tried to catalog the ways that the fundamental SYSM setting modifies parameters other than the action of the Sharpness control. Its action as a fairly pure unsharp-mask at SYSM=2 seems to be the only sensible choice for me, and I have given up on SYSM=3 for anything. SYSM=1 is so absent any finesse that I can't envision a use for it.

This means, of course, that I have chosen SYSM=2 for its salient, useful effects on overall image fidelity. CTLV and other parameters that may be modified by SYSM, and whose effects are more subtle or subordinate, will be used by me in that context or not at all.

Nitewatchman

02-19-06, 03:31 PM

New experiments with the 2103-1 parameters, SSMD and PPHA

"Fine tuning" of SSMD+PPHA seems to be working for me to find those "sweet spots" I was looking for! And I'm really liking what I'm seeing. For me, the key to finding those sweet spots has involved :

#1). First settling on the value of 2103-1/SHFO I want to use - which is SHFO=3. I'm also using SHAP=1 and PREO=1, except for higher SHAP values in 2103-2 for right twinview window. I don't know at this point If I'll put much time into finding the combinations of SSMD+PPHA that will work for SHFO=2, as at this point at least, I think I've pretty much decided on SHFO=3 for all sources/inputs.

#2). Finding the combinations of SSMD+PPHA which seem work best for SHFO=3. In some cases, as you noted in your post there are even several combinations of SSMD+PPHA which work in an "in the ballpark" sense with any given setting of SSMD, generally with PPHA values 5~6 or so apart in my case. This involved :

A). Use of The AVIA sharpness+TVL patterns to get in the "ballpark" to find the various combinations of SSMD+PPHA which produced minimal ringing or overshoot, and "symmetrical Y's" in the narrow end of the TVL wedges+where possible "less clumpy" horizontal sweeps/etc ... Note that I checked these extensively with DVD player at 480i via V5+V6, and a little less extensively with DVD player via S-video(CV/YC).

B). Checking the various combinations I found with a). with real programming material from various sources/inputs and finding the ones that *-work best for each input/source -- Which, in some cases do not necessarily involve the absolute "best" combination of values of SSMD+PPHA concerning looking at the test patterns most symmetrical Y's/etc -- But, at this point, my preferred settings are also from the "list" of "in the ballpark" combinations of SSMD+PPHA.

I think for me, BOTH A+B were/are very important. Without "A", I doubt I would have ever had much luck with "B".

* - While I think I've found some nice "sweet spots" for now, for the reasons you mentioned, this is going to be a "ongoing thing", and it may be quite a while before I completely "settle" on the combination of SSMD/PPHA to be used for any given input/source.

I have come to believe that, because we appear to be fooling around with timing variables here, we are modifying the *quantizing* that goes on in the digital sampling process. As a result, *some* of the effects one sees on-screen are somewhat incidental or accidental: certain patterns of specific periodicity are emphasized by certain combinations of SSMD and PPHA. (You can see this in the “lumpiness” of some of the frequency-sweep patterns.) So one has to be careful about drawing hasty conclusions about overall image fidelity. In particular, parts of vertical lines just slightly off-vertical can change apparent sharpness just by being repositioned in the (invisible) sampling grid: a line that straddles two pixels will appear wider and blurrier. So one has to pay attention to random textures, too.

I think this perfectly describes what I've also experienced with this so far. Excellent post(in its entirety)+ description of these !

Now these values may be specific to *my* TV owing to its specific timing characteristics, so no one should be frustrated by an inability to repeat these exact numbers. The important thing, I think, is to realize that there are likely 2-3 values of PPHA that work for a given value of SSMD on your set, and that one of them will probably look best when tested with a real DVD.

Not frustrated here at all :) -- I think it is interesting that while not "exactly" the same, the combinations of SSMD+PPHA I'm getting for the "sweet spots" are mostly within a couple of values for PPHA from your numbers, and in one case(SSMD=1/PPHA-10) actually *IS* exactly the same.

On my set, With SHAP~PREO 1-3-1, using 480i DVD via V5/V6 component and the AVIA test patterns, here is the list of "in the ballpark" values(first values to right of each "SSMD" value seem best at this point and are my current preferences) for :

SSMD=2 or 3 -- PPHA 8 or 7, PPHA 3 or 2, PPHA 14 or 15
SSMD=1 --- PPHA 10 or 5
SSMD=0 --- PPHA 8 or 7 , 2 or 1, 14 or 13

Here's the list of best values(I didn't spend as much time on this - the below do make for VERY good results from the Y's in the TVL wedges/etc) I could find using DVD player hooked up via S-video :

SSMD=2 or 3 - PPHA 6
SSMD=1 - PPHA 8
SSMD=0 - PPHA 10 or 5

I thought it interesting that these turned out a little different than 480i DVD via component. While it is awfully difficult to say -- It appeared that, for instance SSMD=2/PPHA=8 may or may not have resulted in *very slightly* less overshoot than SSMD=2/PPHA=6 -- everything else(including programming material via S-video sources) is telling me PPHA=6 is better.

At first I thought, well, if this is the case with S-video inputs(which appears to be the case with real programming material via s-video sourdces as well), then perhaps it has more to do with something involving output of my DVD player via component, and perhaps ONLY the DVD player is working best with those settings ... but, using real programming material, and trying for instance SSMD=2/PPHA=6 with RF and 480i ATSC, It seemed apparent(at this point at least) that just does not seem to be the case.

So, at this point at least, I believe it is only the S-video input that needs slightly different combinations of settings for SSMD~PPHA. I'm not really using composite video inputs for anything(except from RF input), but it might be interesting to hook DVD player up via composite video input and check the test patterns and see what I get.

---------------------------------------------------------------

My preferences at this point :

Using SHAP~PREO 1-3-1 for all effected inputs/sources, Here are my preferred settings at this point per inputs I'm using+some notes. Again, I also haven't settled on all of these completely yet, but at this point at least they all seem to be working very nicely :

RF Input(In my case, used only for OTA NTSC sources) :

SSMD=2
PPHA =8

From what I can tell so far, at this point this seems to be the *definite* sweet spot for OTA NTSC sources. It looks wonderful.

CV/YC :

I use this with S-Video inputs, specifically Dish Network 311 receiver and JVC S-VHS deck :

SSMD=2
PPHA=6

At first, I had spent quite a bit of time with this one and SSMD=2/PPHA=8 -- per the results I found with Test patterns+480i DVD via component -- which seemed to work fairly well(more detail than you might expect from SD NTSC sources for instance), but, still there was just something that didn't quite seem "right" about it. So, Considering what I found with the test patterns via DVD hooked up via S-video after looking at quite a bit of programming(and user menus in Dish network+the S-VHS VCR), for now, I've decided I like SSMD=2/PPHA=6 better. Chances are good I might "flip flop" on this one again, though ...

ATSC 480i and V5/V6 for 480i DVD :

SSMD=1
PPHA=10

Important note : This one is a bit of a dilemma. While I think at this point I like SSMD=2, PPHA=8 for DVD just a tad better --- unfortunetly, 480i ATSC+V5/V6 use a single PPHA value from the "others" column, and at this point I think I'm seeing a fairly clear preference for SSMD=1/PPHA=10 for ATSC 480i. Seems to be The "sweet spot" for natural looking, and detailed "textures" for a few high quality 480i ATSC/OTA sources of importance which I'm not quite getting with SSMD~PPHA=2~8. High quality 480i ATSC sources(some in the area certianly are not "high quality" however) very much have a "DVD-like" quality with SSMD=1/PPHA=10, that is *almost* but not quite there with SSMD=2/PPHA=8 ....

At first I thought this wouldn't be much of a dilemma, since previously, I've allways slightly perferred sending 480p from the player. HOWEVER, now it looks like with SSMD=2, PPHA=8, (but not so much with SSMD=1/PPHA=10) I'm starting to develop a slight preference for 480i from the player, as it now seems just a TAD bit(but not much) better than 480p concerning "natural looking" texture, and perhaps even a tad more detail visable ... decisions, desisions ;) ...

I tried to see if using SSMD=0/PPHA 8 or 7 might be a good "in the middle of the road" compromise that would work well for both 480i ATSC and 480i DVD, but it didn't seem to be the case, as for instance, I still perfer 480p DVD over this option, and it didn't work as well for ATSC 480i either.

------------------------------

(Warning: Using SSMD=1 causes a slight red-intensity drop on my RF input, but nothing on V5 for the DVD player.)

Noticed this as well -- it effects CV/YC(Dish network receiver/etc) in my case as well, but Not V5/V6 or 480i ATSC (component video sources).

I haven't checked it yet, but at some point I will probably check AVIA/DVE color tests with DVD hooked up via Svideo with "one gun" tests using RGBS and see what happens with SSMD=1. As, from what I recall before with balancing color+S-video input, I'm thinking there may be a slight possibility SSMD=1 may be useful for me for S-video in this regard.

KenTech

02-19-06, 04:31 PM

New Image-Processing Codes Chart

I have updated "IPChart05tall.pdf" from post #707 to include the SSMD and PPHA parameters, and I have updated a couple of the descriptions. Also removed some wordiness to keep the whole thing on one legal-size page. See attachment below.

ADU

02-19-06, 06:09 PM

So I believe a comparison between SYSM=2 and 3 reveals a more complicated effect than simply that SYSM=3 affects higher spatial frequencies than SYS=2.Could be temporal to start with. If SYSM simply varies the clockspeed/frequency of the edge filters under it's control, the differences would translate into a broader (SYSM=1) or narrower (SYSM=3) effect in a horizontal direction on the screen. I'm not sayin that's exactly what's happenin since this is beyond my scope of expertise, but if you set Sharpness to it's highest or lowest setting and then switch between the different SYSM modes while looking at a pattern like this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=50979), that's pretty much the effect you'll see. The Sharpening or softening effect becomes more condensed in a horizontal direction as SYSM is increased from 1 to 3. And it seems to work the same for F1LV and CTLV.

KenTech

02-19-06, 07:02 PM

Could be temporal to start with.Well it certainly must be for SYSM=2 and its unsharp-mask effect, sort of the point I was making about the entire picture shifting to the right -- a dead giveaway, IMO. That this shift is absent or much less with SYSM=3, it's possible that a different mechanism is in play. (A Sony description of SYSM uses the terms "flat" for 3, but "broad peak" for 2, and "sharp peak" for 1 and 0. But these terms may be really poorly chosen and translated.)

None of us has any knowledge of the engineering details behind these settings, and we're all guessing how they're implemented. My personal goal has been to characterize them well enough to be able to make wise choices of settings. Analyzing *why* they act as they do indulges my engineering nature, but it's not absolutely necessary. I see from the evidence what SYSM=2 does for all images I use for testing it, and so I feel I understand, if only "organically" or intuitively, what it does. I can't get SYSM=3 to act on the finest textures without exaggerating coarser detail, and so now it's off my list. SYSM=2 doesn't have this problem.

KenTech

02-19-06, 08:02 PM

I think it is interesting that while not "exactly" the same, the combinations of SSMD+PPHA I'm getting for the "sweet spots" are mostly within a couple of values for PPHA from your numbers, and in one case(SSMD=1/PPHA-10) actually *IS* exactly the same.I'm very grateful for your extensive contribution! I think it sort of proves that there may be a "ballpark" for these "sweet" parameter-pairs, but I'm not at all surprised to hear that you have arrived at slightly different numbers. Some of those numbers, however, really do agree, and so maybe PPHA is the real wildcard.

The downside is that, unlike some of the other parameters that can be adopted by most users without testing (color-matrix stuff comes to mind), with these I am unable to say "Oh, yeah, just crank in the numbers 1-3-1-2-6, and you'll have perfection." The 1-3-1-2 may get you 90% of the way there, but that final PPHA component I believe really has to be "tuned." Too bad for non-tinkerers! I hope that, since you and I have each elaborated on our *method,* that others may be game to try, too. So far I really like what I am seeing!

Good friends of mine who have bought the same set, on which I have already made numerous adjustments, will get this SSMD/PPHA treatment, and I'll report back how their settings differ.

phatl

02-20-06, 12:59 AM

I have a question that i couldn't find the answer to by searching the thread. I have a patch of discoloration for lack of a better word in the upperleft hand corner right along the edge and about an inch from the top of the screen. It's kind of blueish i guess. I only really notice it when that part of the screen is white. Is there a setting i can play with to correct this?

XDanX

02-20-06, 02:00 AM

So I know phosphor trailing on tube televisions are common place which I am fine with by on my kv30hs420 they are a little ridiculous sometimes. When playing any games on the television that have darker backgrounds and lighter images the trailing can get very very bad. At some points especially in games like donkey kong country when the screen is moving fast the trailing can reach a length of an inch and a half past the object! I know there is no way to get rid of this problem completely but if anyone where to give me any advice on how to reduce it even by a little I would be thankful. Thank you to everyone ahead of time for the help!:)

ADU

02-20-06, 02:26 AM

If you're using 480p, or 480i with DRC/Progessive or Cinemotion, try switching to something that will display in an interlaced mode like 1080i, or using DRC/Interlaced (960i) for 480i upconversion. 720p should also convert to interlaced 1080i for display. Increase ambient illumination, ie turn a few lamps on and don't game in the dark. Avoid Pro picture mode if possible. Also try adjusting game gamma (especially if using Pro). Try both darkening and lightening gamma to see which works better for you. Try some different Brightness settings. See my remarks here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=571293) as well. That's about all I can think of off the top of my head.

KenTech

02-20-06, 12:20 PM

I have a patch of discolorationWhat model set?

ADU

02-20-06, 06:22 PM

That this shift is absent or much less with SYSM=3, it's possible that a different mechanism is in play.FWIW there's a shift when switching between all three SYSM settings on my XBR800.A Sony description of SYSM uses the terms "flat" for 3, but "broad peak" for 2, and "sharp peak" for 1 and 0. But these terms may be really poorly chosen and translated.)Those terms seem more or less in accord with my interpretation, but what I see on the screen is the reverse of their descriptions. SYSM=0/1 creates the broadest/coarsest effects on my TV, while SYSM=3 creates the narrowest/finest. Perhaps they're looking at it differently though.Medium-fine detail, and maybe fine, increase as you increase Sharpness, but very fine detail is *not* enhanced. Fine textures are, in fact, somewhat masked by an exaggerated presence of mid-fine detail.I can't get SYSM=3 to act on the finest textures without exaggerating coarser detail, and so now it's off my list. SYSM=2 doesn't have this problem.Understood. Not sure if this is related, but one thing I noticed in tests with SYSM=3 was that SHF0=1 seemed to have a somewhat more destructive effect on fine detail in that mode.

Another potential problem with SYSM=3 is just the fact that the edge effects are so "condensed" together that fine-tuning them may be more difficult. Switching to SYSM=1 or 2 may give a more "magnified/enhanced" view of what's going on though for effects such as Sharpness, CTLV and F1LV.

SYSM=3 could possibly be more beneficial at higher resolutions as well. 720p and 1080i are generally assigned higher SYSM settings (usually 3) than 480i and 480p in the defaults for example.Further, on perfectly sharp edges, SYSM=3 plus turning Sharpness *way* up results in a bright line of overshoot following an edge. If SYS=2, however, these bright lines adhere to *both* sides of the edge, pre- and post-transition, like true unsharp-masking. The fact that the entire picture shifts a bit to the right with SYSM=2 also reveals that a delay has been added to the path for the basic image, allowing pre-edge enhancement. Without that delay (SYSM=3), pre-edge enhancement is impossible.PROV should provide some control over how ringing/overshoot is centered in relation to the edge. Achieving a well-defined unsharp-mask effect like you're after may be difficult with SYSM=3 though because the edge effects may be so tightly packed together that they're basically overlapping each other (especially if the CRT guns aren't well-focused?). So the best you may be able to achieve is a more "evenly diffused" edge.

FWIW, my latest take on the 2170P-3 edge controls (excluding velocity modulation):

SYSM
Controls the coarseness of various edge effects such as Sharpness, F1LV, CTLV, and possible others. 1=Coarse. 3=Fine.

SHOF
Sharpness offset.

SHF0
Still having some difficulty describing the effect of this control. SHF0=1 seems to give the picture a stiffer, "flatter", more textural monitor-like feeling. SHF0=0 makes a deeper, smoother, looser feeling picture. Still going back and forth on these.

PROV
Adjusts the emphasis (ie ringing/overshoot) to the left or right of edges in small increments. If this control isn't "centered" well, the biased effect on edges will sort of pull your eye towards the left or right side of the screen in normal video content.

F1LV
Enhances the brightness of edges, especially elevating shadow details so they're easier to see. Coarseness of the effect is controlled by SYSM.

LTMD=0/LTLV=1-3
Smooths out low-contrast detail (including noise, grain and compression artifacts) and sharpens/defines high-contrast edges.

LTMD=1/LTLV=1-3
Enhances edge-definition across the board, bringing higher-contrast edges forward.

CTLV
Softens color details by reducing saturation at edges. 0=highest color saturation at edges and sharpest color detail. 3=lowest edge saturation, and generally softest-looking color detail. Coarseness of the effect is controlled by SYSM.

phatl

02-20-06, 11:35 PM

What model set?

no problem. xbr910. Thanks Ken.

KenTech

02-21-06, 12:54 PM

FWIW there's a shift when switching between all three SYSM settings on my XBR800.Well, you see *two* shifts, between the settings. Which points up a flaw in my thinking: How do I know that SYSM=3 isn't shifted as well, since we don't have a guaranteed "zero-shift" reference point? So I am reexamining my "conclusions" based on that logic. (Everything I "conclude" is on probation!)Those terms seem more or less in accord with my interpretation, but what I see on the screen is the reverse of their descriptions.It's consistent, actually. Progressing from SYSM=0/1 thru 3 *raises* the video frequencies that are affected and therefore makes the effects' visual representation on-screen smaller. (Higher video frequencies => higher spatial frequencies => smaller effects on-screen.)Not sure if this is related, but one thing I noticed in tests with SYSM=3 was that SHF0=1 seemed to have a somewhat more destructive effect on fine detail in that mode.I can't confirm, but I really dislike the effects introduced by SHF0=0, and that setting is what smears fine textures to my eyes. (I presume you mean the SHF0 in 2170P-3.)Another potential problem with SYSM=3 is just the fact that the edge effects are so condensed and crowded together that fine-tuning them to do anything useful may be more difficult. <snip>I am coming to agree with this and am backing off of my assertion that very fine detail cannot be improved with SYSM=3. I have now found that it is possible to taylor the filters in MID5 so that, with SYSM=3 and Sharpness cranked up to 40 (!), I have DVD and HD display that is essentially the same as what I was getting with SYS=2 and Sharpness at 28. Finessing this seems to be the key. I watched last evening's Olympics in HD with SYSM=3 plus a new custom corresponding MID5 column, and on those incredible computer graphics -- the ones with the five Olympic rings about 1/2" wide on-screen -- saw a remarkably balanced picture. Obviously I'm full of beans claiming that finest detail can't be brought out with SYSM=3. I've just had a real resistance to cranking up the Sharpness control that high! Now that I've rid myself of that prejudice, I'll have more to say about it.SHF0 -- Still having some difficulty describing the effect of this control. SHF0=1 seems to give the picture a stiffer, "flatter", more textural monitor-like feeling. SHF0=0 makes a deeper, smoother, looser feeling picture. That the picture is substantially shifted to the right with SHF0=0 indicated that a time-domain effect is being added. But it's really hard to characterize for me, too, and I have watched it smear ultra-fine texture. So, barring some epiphany, SHF0=1 is my only choice for now.PROV -- Adjusts the emphasis (ie ringing/overshoot) to the left or right of edges in small increments. If this control isn't "centered" well, the biased effect on edges will sort of pull your eye towards the left or right side of the screen in normal video content.Experiments I have run with Sharpness turned *way* up show that PROV moves the edge enhancement to the left as you increase it from 0 thru 3, and 3 seems centered, not too far to the left. I'm choosing centered for now because it makes sense in helping these filters to develop a true unsharp-mask effect.F1LV -- Enhances the brightness of edges, especially elevating shadow details so they're easier to see. Coarseness of the effect is controlled by SYSM.I can't confirm that there is any differential effect depending on brightness. For the interaction with SYSM, did you reduce Sharpness so its effects are not confounding you observation?LTMD~CTLV <snip>I'm generally not happy with what these parameters do to fine images. I'm sure there may be a "rescue" mission for horrible video that justifies them, but I can't test that.

KenTech

02-21-06, 01:25 PM

I have a question that i couldn't find the answer to by searching the thread. I have a patch of discoloration for lack of a better word in the upperleft hand corner right along the edge and about an inch from the top of the screen. (34XBR910)There are two issues that interact: The beam-landing settings in the LANDING group of service mode, and the heating of the aperture-grille by a bright-white screen and its resultant (unpredictable) warping.

One of the first things I did to my set was to cure dark, bluish patches in the corners and minimize the patches like you described. Bottom line: They might occur no matter what when the whole screen is white from top to bottom at the left part of your screen, and you'll either have to live with it or reduce the Picture setting so whites are not so bright.

General procedure, using settings in LANDING group in SM:

(0) WRITE DOWN all of the original settings in LANDING for the first ten items, LT~LVPH. Put up a gray uniform screen, or a white screen with Picture cranked way down. Do NOT use a bright-white screen! Make sure your set is oriented the way you usually watch it.

(1) Set TESW to 1 to disable the four corner adjustments temporarily, and set EWSP and ENSW for brightest corners with least discoloration.

(2) Set TESW back to 0, and touch up the four settings, LT (left-top) thru RB (right-bottom), for even, bright corners with minimum discoloration. Note that if you go too far with a corner control, you may cause a green patch somewhere else -- there's lots of interaction. If you want to start from scratch, set LT~RB each to 127, and go from there. Go around the screen a few times -- these settings interact. Watch for new patches of discoloration that may sneak in. The is no guarantee of perfection, but a big improvement may be the happy result.

(3) WRITE the settings.

(4) Watch the TV for a few days with these settings to see if they're right for your normal viewing habits. I can guarantee that you will likely always see a few greenish or pinkish patches if you watch B/W movies with the Picture set high. It's the curse of the Big CRT!

rkellogg556

02-21-06, 02:22 PM

Looking for some basic help with geomtery and overscanning. I am using input #5 for my 360 and I would like to adjust the overscan a bit. What exactly do I need to do. I read through a thread about the service menu but I am a bit confused. Does each input have its own settings in the service menu or does a change in geometry affect all inputs for example? What about for different sources/signals? Does 1080i have to be adjusted differently than a signal that is 720P? For the most part I am mainly concerned with getting a quality display from the 360 running at 1080i. The analog signals from my cable box running through input 1 are also somewhat important or an area I may like to adjust. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. I think I will leave the color and white/black levels as is for now. However if you have any suggestions for quick a dirty color adjustments I am listening.

Thanks

penske

02-21-06, 05:10 PM

Hey guys
I purchased a 36xs955 about a month ago. I really think the HDTV looks great on this tv. But i have been reading this post for a while now and trying to figure out what exactly you guys are talking about. I dont know that much about this stuff and so much of it has been going over my head. I put some of the images from the earlier posts onto a memory stick and looked at them on the tv - some of the lines were "bouncing" or "moving". is this what i am supposed to see when my tv needs some tweaking? is this why some lines when i watch dvd's look the same way? so i guessing that my tv could look a lot better. or will it?
i have been reading through the posts but after a while i feel like my brain is going to explode. i want to tweak these service codes, but it seems like its going to take some time. i am about done recording all of my values as they are now. i was wondering if somewhere in these posts did KenTech or someone else list their complete list of values for everything? i would like to see what your settings would look like on my tv. is this not a good idea? is every tv different that your setting wouldn't look as good on my tv? or do you consider this info kind of proprietary and you dont want to give it away?
KenTech, from what i have read in this post from you, i am astounded of the amount of time you put into it and the information that you have given us.
i want to get into doing these tweaks but i dont feel like i have the time to do it. i am hoping to be able to see the settings of an expert on the subject and see if i notice a difference that will make me really want to go back and tweak away. i notice that the experts in these forums see things that i would never see, so the improvement that someone else sees maybe not be noticable by me, therefore making it not worth the time.
i will continue to read through the posts in the mean time - thanks for your effort in helping us out.
jon

ragingd

02-21-06, 06:59 PM

rkellogg556

02-21-06, 07:30 PM

I do have MID3 in my service menu, but its a whole bunch of different options than the service menu PDF..I have the exact same values as the guy in this post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6876424&&#post6876424

I can tweak the bottom image to where its fully there, but the bottom 1-3% is very skewed to the left.

Do you know about my 480p problem?

Not sure if this is what you are talking about but I just got a 30xs955 and I could not find the suggested values to change in MID3, I could only adjust MID2 to change the geometry. Changing these values did affect the 1080i from my 360.

KenTech

02-22-06, 02:39 PM

i have been reading through the posts but after a while i feel like my brain is going to explode.Oh, dear, I just knew this would happen! i want to tweak these service codes, but it seems like its going to take some time. i am about done recording all of my values as they are now.Good boy!i was wondering if somewhere in these posts did KenTech or someone else list their complete list of values for everything? i would like to see what your settings would look like on my tv. is this not a good idea? is every tv different that your setting wouldn't look as good on my tv? or do you consider this info kind of proprietary and you dont want to give it away?Oh, good God, no! Several of us have been shamelessly posting every little twitch in our thinking. There's nothing proprietary in my posts, I assure you.

A complete list of all values would be of questionable help in many areas. For geometry and color convergence, it's nearly useless, as every TV is different. (It's the *method* that is important, not the numbers.) For principle color settings, it's only a ballpark. For color-matrix and warm/cool offsets, one can come very close. For image-processing in 2170P-3 and MID5, the settings can be specified very closely for others to try, but there's the matter of preference, opinion, and associated equipment. It's in that last category where I am happy to recommend settings, and that is what the chart in post #1040 is for.i notice that the experts in these forums see things that i would never see, so the improvement that someone else sees maybe not be noticable by me, therefore making it not worth the time.This might be true, but once you've got certain fundamental things adjusted (grayscale, color, decent image-processing), I think you would say, "Oh, I get it!" Sony has to set many parameters in the ballpark over all of the sets, as they cannot justify detailed twiddling on each one. It's a consumer product, after all, mass-manufactured. Refining those settings is what this forum is all about, but I am aware that the discussion can get quite rarified!thanks for your effort in helping us out.You're welcome!

KenTech

02-22-06, 02:55 PM

I have a quick question I have adjusted the vm thru vml in the 2170P-3 group and set them all to zero but now the picture looks soft or blurry is there any ideal setting to adjust these too. Thanks for any help."Ideal" is a matter of opinion, but many of use seem to agree that *moderation* in these settings is the way to proceed, making sure there is always a way to turn VM all the way off. Here's what I recommend:

For EACH picture mode (Vivid, Standard, etc), set VM=0, VMH=6, VMM=4, and VML=2, and WRITE the settings.

Then for the different inputs/video modes you are using, set in 2170P-3: VMCR=0, VMLM=3, VMF0=0, and VMDL=8, and WRITE the settings. VMDL's effect is super-subtle, and there's some discussion of what value is good, from, say, 6 to 12. For me, getting VMDL right is small potatoes, and something in the middle seems fine. (VMF0 was much more critical!) So I use VMDL=8.

Now you can test the effects of VM on different types of programs, bearing in mind that less is probably better for high-resolution video. I typically use Low for HD, Medium for DVDs, and High or Medium for SD broadcast. Setting it to Off is not a choice for me: the right amount seems always to improve the realism of the picture. But all you would have to do is set VM to OFF in the user menu if you want this.

ADU

02-22-06, 02:56 PM

Not sure if this is related, but one thing I noticed in tests with SYSM=3 was that SHF0=1 seemed to have a somewhat more destructive effect on fine detail in that mode.I think I'm gonna have to retract this statement. After doing a bit more reading and poking around in the AVS archives, I think what I perceived as being a "loss or smoothing out of fine detail" with 2170P-3/SHF0=1 & SYSM=3 may actually have been the passing through/preservation of even finer details with that setting.

After reading UMR's description (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=3133341&highlight=shf0#post3133241) of what appears to be a similar parameter on the GWIII, what I think 2170P-3/SHF0 may probably do is switch a simple high frequency filter/limiter on and off. And I think you may be right Ken that SHF0=0 probably enables the filtration while SHF0=1 may turn it off, allowing even finer details to pass through.

SHF0=0 may look "cleaner" and "deeper", but I think that could be because some of the finest detail (and noise) is filtered out with SHF0=0. I suspect that it's the ultra fine detail and noise that gives SHF0=1 a "tighter", "flatter" more "textural" feeling.

What this would mean in a nutshell...

2170P-3/SHF0=0 reduces the bandwidth of video signal by filtering out the highest frequency info.

2170P-3/SHF0=1 increases bandwidth allowing more high-frequency detail (and also noise) through.

Agree/disagree?

KenTech

02-22-06, 03:03 PM

Agree/disagree?I mostly agree. Guessing what's happening is like reading chicken entrails! SHF0=0 does add some coarse-detail sharpening but at the expense of finest textures -- usually a sign of undesirable peaking. I don't like it even on ordinary SD cable broadcast. So it's SHF0=1 for me.

ragingd

02-22-06, 04:41 PM

Thanks KenTech. Should I turn sharpness alway down in the user menu when i make the changes. Thanks for all the help.

KenTech

02-22-06, 05:49 PM

Should I turn sharpness alway down in the user menu when i make the changes.No. Making these changes does not require that you look at any image. But after you have set up VM this way, turn it off. Then raise the Sharpness on some video you commonly watch until it looks right to you. Watch out! The effects in Standard or Vivid can be particularly gross! Try Pro. There is no "right" setting for Sharpness; it might be 15, it might be 40.

When you have done that, turn on some VM, maybe Medium, to see what it looks like. VM is a subtle enhancement of image sharpness, not a primary creator of it.

ragingd

02-23-06, 09:43 AM

Thanks KenTech for the help. I have one more problem but it's deals with overscan. I have a oppo upconvert dvd player connected to my t.v through the dvi input. I adjusted overscan with dve test pattern 12/17 for 1080i and 720p resolutions. I first adjusted vpos, vsiz, hpos and hsiz. Then I adjusted the raster with mid3 vdhp, vdhs, vdve, and vdvs. Everything looked good until I switched to video 5 and looked at test patterns from INHD that I recorded on my cable dvr. I see more on the left side than the right on the test patterns. Thanks for any help.

KenTech

02-23-06, 10:54 PM

I have one more problem but it's deals with overscan.I'm going to defer to others who tinker regularly with geometry. I got my set mostly right last spring, and I haven't paid any attention to it since.

It could be that the equipment you mention has inserted a delay in the video content relative to the sync pulses, and it's a characteristic of that receiver/recorder. I don't know which horizontal phase/position parameter is input-specific so that it can be compensated.

Myke256

02-24-06, 01:42 PM

is there anyway to adjust horizontal bowing? i can see it a little on my set on top and bottom of the screen but can only adjust verticle :(

KenTech

02-24-06, 03:19 PM

is there anyway to adjust horizontal bowing?Do you mean curved bowing of horizontal lines, as at the top and bottom of the screen or in corners? Not easy to fix! Requires taking back off set and messing with magnets -- which can screw up other parameters, such as color convergence. A job for experts!

MaxDam77

02-24-06, 03:58 PM

My set has a nearly unsignificant bowing on the corners. I just I tried so many ways in the service menu to try to eliminate them with VPIN, VCEN, PIN,....it nearly impossible to have it 100% straight. I got it as straight as it could. I just got use to it and it doesn't bother me anymore. But if it is a real issue for you, take Ken's advice and have an expert do the job with magnets.

Myke256

02-24-06, 08:38 PM

Yea, it's minimal but noticable. it's in the 4 corners of the TV but not very distracting. This TV sure beats the crap out of my old Samsung I used to have so I can't really complain. But the red push people talk about is not there. I looked at the settings. RYR-GYB, 14-13-9-6, were the valus out of the box. Didn't touch them.

Myke256

02-24-06, 11:10 PM

Yea, one more thing. It seems things in the center of the screen are clearer than things on the outside. Things near the edge of the screen are more blur'd but in the middle they're crystal clear. It's really evident when text is on the screen. This is in 1080i

MaxDam77

02-25-06, 10:35 AM

You need the adjust the focus on the corners: 2170-D4 DF (dynamic focus adjustment in the corners).

Myke256

02-25-06, 06:17 PM

ok thanks. im gonna go try it. that was bothering me.

I messed around with it. I guess it's not possible to get the whole picture as clear as the center?

and here's the bowing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Myke256/bowing.jpg

It really only bothers me in the top left. I just got this set a couple days ago so it's under warranty. Would Sony send a tech to fix it for free?

KenTech

02-26-06, 01:40 PM

It seems things in the center of the screen are clearer than things on the outside. Things near the edge of the screen are more blur'd but in the middle they're crystal clear.Even if the set is *perfectly* focused and adjusted, this will still be true. All you can do is minimize it. The electron beam that strikes the screen head-on near the center is hitting the screen at a considerable angle as you move toward the edges and corners, and the beam elongates into an ellipse, The procedure detailed elsewhere in this thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5774400&&#post5774400) can help you make the best of it, even without doing the internal focus adjustment. But the red push people talk about is not there. I looked at the settings. RYR-GYB, 14-13-9-6, were the valus out of the box.Oh it's there, all right, but it doesn't bother you yet. (The "9" gives it away!) Use the color-calibration patterns on AVIA or DVE to see what's really up. That said, no one is under any obligation to make adjustments that may ultimately make no difference to them.

Myke256

02-26-06, 02:19 PM

I just adjusted the QPDC and it looks a lot better. :) anything else I can adjust?

edit. I just adjusted the red push value's and once again you were right. I guess I just didn't notice it but not that I changed the value's to 14-14-6-4, skin looks a bit more natural and less color bleeding with red

damn ken, how do you know this much stuff

Tommy Tweaker

02-26-06, 05:13 PM

I just want to offer my sincere thanks to KenTech for his tireless work on determining how to make Sony TVs look better.

I have had a 34XBR910 for about two years now. A few weekends ago, I decided to see if there was someway to download or otherwise purchase a service manual for my TV. Prior to this 34 inch widescreen, I had a 36 inch 4:3 Sony for about five years. That one I had calibrated by an ISF guy, only to have the tube go bad a few weeks later. I'm not suggesting it was his fault. My complaint here is that the place I purchased it from, which at that time offered a calibration service, didn't want to honor my $350 with another visit after I got a replacement tube.

Around that time, a popular home theatre magazine printed the access code to the service menu on that particular model TV in their letters section. I was familiar with adjusting grayscale by eyeballing it (having previously owned a Zenith front projector and the acccess code to its service menu), so off I went looking for the drive and cut controls and calibrated to the best of my ability. I also did some geometry work. As far as what all that other stuff was, I experimented with some of it and if I didn't see any results, I passed on by.

Well, I get the bug for a new TV every five years, so I switched to the 34XBR910. I bought it at another place that actually offered ISF calibration for free. They did ask, though, that I let the set run for about 300 hours before calling them over. Before that time, I had accessed the service menu and done another grayscale and geometry set-up by myself and never bothered to have them come over.

Again, I had no idea what all of those other abbreviations and acronyms were, hence my recent desire to get a service manual. Having somehow missed the posting of same on this forum while doing a net search, I bought a download from an internet site for $25. Oh, boy, I thought, that manual will tell me what all these things mean and how to adjust them. Well, you know that, aside from a few items, that just isn't true.

Finally, last weekend I came across this particular thread and rejoiced to the heavens for the information provided. I followed a lot of your advice, KenTech and you others of the ISF persuasion, and the results are marvelous so far. I'm a tweaker, as my user name implies, so I've been adjusting gamma, focus, picture enhancement, convergence, landing settings; things I didn't know I had any control over.

I do hope some day to read here that someone has figured out how to get rid of that annoying phosphor lag. I have never had my picture control higher than 13. I tried turning down YCON and PRIO to their minimum settings and all I got was a dark picture that still exhibited phosphor lag/trailing.

But, hey, all the other improvements take the sting out of that problem. Carry on!

Spiffu

02-26-06, 05:18 PM

Ok I've got a serious problem. I read a lot of the posts on here because i needed to adjust the picture on sony kv34hs420 because my xbox360 had some cropping issues on some games in 1080i. So I look at the pdf files, I find the settings I have to adjust everything works fine.

After months of not playing my ps2 I go to boot it up, the picture is scrambled and I don't know wtf is going on. My first thought was it was the cable but that wasn't it, but then I remembered the service settings I did, but since I had no clue what had done I just did a reset of the nvm and mid data as explained in the official help file. I figured what would bring it back to factory settings right?

Wrong, my tv is now screwed up beyond belief. I no longer have the all the screen mode settings it supposed to have, it only has normal and zoom. The picture for the independent resolutions is horribly scewed and distorted no matter what I do to it. I have a strange black scan line in the back ground during fad to black scenes.

I am at a loss at what I can do for my tv, doing a factory reset does nothing for it. My guess how this all started is that a tripped a setting unintentionally. I think sony makes that interface so convuluted on purpose to get more service calls.

If anyone on these forums know how to fix my problem, I would greatly appreciate it.

Myke256

02-27-06, 12:20 AM

How much does it cost to have someone come to my house with magnets and correct bowing? Not a complete calibration. Would this be under Warranty and maybe have a Sony tech come do it for free?

mapson

02-27-06, 11:50 AM

First, I want to thank Kentech and the many others who have all provided great insight to my new 34xs955. I'm about 2/3 through this thread and I only really understand a small portion, the amount of tweakability is amazing.

Has anyone ordered the service manual for the 34xs955 from Sony? How much was it and how concise is it?

On my 955, when it is showing 4:3 material with black bars on each side, the left side seems a little slanted while the right side appears straight, kinda like this a bit. How should I address this? A combination of 2170-2, PPHA and VANG, maybe?

/ l

ragingd

02-27-06, 03:35 PM

Quick question for people with xbox 360's, what picture mode do you use when playing the xbox( pro, standard or vivid) ?

AtXj

02-27-06, 07:39 PM

Can someone post the settings for the default Pro picture mode on the HS420.

My Pro mode was tweaked before I came upon this thread.

Thanks in advance.

SurfingMatt27

02-27-06, 10:49 PM

Quick question for people with xbox 360's, what picture mode do you use when playing the xbox( pro, standard or vivid) ?

Pro of coarse!

Those other modes just over exagerate jaggies and make them worse by adding excessive EE.

Myke256

02-28-06, 12:48 AM

I use Standard for my 360. Colors and Black Levels look better than Pro's

MaxDam77

02-28-06, 08:41 AM

I use PRO for everything, Gaming, DVD and TV.

KenTech

02-28-06, 02:38 PM

I do hope some day to read here that someone has figured out how to get rid of that annoying phosphor lag. I have never had my picture control higher than 13. I tried turning down YCON and PRIO to their minimum settings and all I got was a dark picture that still exhibited phosphor lag/trailing.Okay, I'll risk it:

Definitive Statement Regarding Phosphor "Lag" (Persistence)

Please, there's something absolutely fundamental that you and others need to understand here: Phosphor "lag" is an inherent physical property of the chemical compounds used to coat the screen, the ones that glow in the three primary colors when struck by the sweeping electron beam. You can NOT alter this. You can NOT adjust it away.

But, by all accounts, you can make it so your eyes are less able to see it, and it has to do with ambient room lighting:

Bad: totally dark room. Your eyes adapt to the overall darkness by turning up their sensitivity, and this is worst with a picture which is mostly dark but with bright objects in it, moving subjects, graphics, etc. The phosphor lag becoms visible, and that is the problem.

Good: Low to medium room lighting. (Try one of the intensities recommended on the DVE or AVIA test DVDs.) Your eyes remain light-adapted, and the parts of your vision that might see those phosphor trails aren't sensitive enough to do so. Further benefit: less eye-fatigue and irritation plus more-accurate and consistent color perception. The lag's still there -- your attention just isn't drawn to it. In particular, don't look for it! Don't obsess over this -- it will do you no good! Just balance room lighting and overall picture brightness (the "Picture" control).

synyster

03-01-06, 03:39 PM

Just got my 960 a few weeks ago, lovely set. I popped in my avia dvd and did a crosshatch test. I have pictures below......my question is, is there anything in the service menu that can fix these issues...or will i have to call a tech?

This is the crosshatch test in widescreen mode..notice the lower left, upper right:
PIC (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/tempbgol/DSC00005.jpg)

The same test in full mode:
PIC (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/tempbgol/DSC00011.jpg)

Line bowing in the upper left:
PIC (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/tempbgol/DSC00013.jpg)

Just a side note....the actual picture on my tv is great. The only issue i ever see is when there is a logo or bar at the bottom and it bends slightly in the lower left. Most normal people wont notice it....but after lurking in these forums for months i was "trained" to look for issues like this. Thanks for any help.

Myke256

03-01-06, 07:55 PM

Synyster, unfortunately you can't fix that. You'll need to have a tech come to your house and adjust that with magnets. This is a common problem on CRT's though. Mine does it :(

Napoleon D

03-02-06, 02:27 PM

Ken Tech, or anyone else with the knowledge - i apligize to bring up an older discussion, but it was on this thread nevertheless. Per the conversation on SYSM settings. A lot of us have agreed as SYSM - 2 being the better setting, at least for component 480p material.

I recently had an ISF, everything was done well. Although i ultimately changed the SYSM-3 he had set, back over to SYSM-2. The SYSM-3 had a MIDE/POP setting of 17 to give the appropriate sharpness boost. Unfortuanely this flat picture (or whatever Sony calls it) is VERY difficult to focus on, at least for 480P material. He also set the sharpness slider at 32. I also have an XP-30 too, so the dvd material comes through very well.

After setting the SYSM back to 2, things looked better. The picture was a little noisier, but at least I got the appropriate natural sharpness boost which brought out the fine details so they were in focus. Sorry if this lingo is incorrect, but i was an English major so you're going to see a different way of describing things with me.

With SYSM-2, i am actually able to remove every edge-enhancment in the SM, which is a good thing. I had calibrated it like this prior to ISF, and it looked good then to me. These edge enhancements i refer to are the VM's, LV's, Mides turned off, etc. The picture still has the appropriate sharpness.

Here is the only minor issue. Now with SYSM-2, with the edge enhancemnts off, i am only left with the sharpness slider. The calibrator set the sharpness at 32. I imagine this setting was appropriate to compliment the SYSM 3 setting. Now that i have SYSM-2, there is a little too much noise on the screen with sharpness at 32. Now as i try to lower it a few ticks to smoothen the picture out, it now become VERY difficult to focus on. Prior to ISF, i was able to use SYSM-2 with a low sharpness setting, and STILL get a smooth look with all those details still easy to see. Again, now when i try to repeat that process by lowering sharpness form 32, i have some trouble adjusting, and focusing on the image.

I guess my question is - what is the item in the service menu that corresponds with the sharpness slider - meaning, if you adjust your sharpness slider so that the middle is where you want it (the Pro Mode offset), what corresponding item in the SM adjusts sharpness so that the offset matches the your ideal/calibrated sharpness setting? All of the sharpness adjustments in the SM seem to be the same as before calibration. But there is some item of sharpness he adjusted in the SM that was able to appropraitely match the offset of 32 for Pro - in order that the mid setting of 32 is the right setting. I'm trying to figure out what this value is. Does any anyone know?

KenTech

03-02-06, 03:24 PM

But there is some item of sharpness he adjusted in the SM that was able to appropraitely match the offset of 32 for Pro - in order that the mid setting of 32 is the right setting. I'm trying to figure out what this value is. Does any anyone know?What I have confirmed from precise tests is that 2170P-3 #6/SHOF is strictly an offset for the Sharpness slider, no more, no less. The ratio is 4:1 -- meaning that adding +1 to SHOF is exactly identical to adding +4 to the user Sharpness setting.

I am currently experimenting with a new possible combination with SYSM=3, with some amazing results that I will soon write up in an article, presenting an alternative to SYSM=2 as the overall "best" choice. As part of this, SYSM=3 requires more Sharpness-slider boost to make it comparable to SYSM=2, but that is inconvenient for testing. For example, if one discovers that SYSM=2 at Sharpness=30 is about the same as SYSM=3 and Sharpness=42, one could set SHOF at 3 for SYSM=3, and Sharpness could be kept in the same ballpark as with SYSM=2. Make sense?

Just remember that 4:1 ratio. If you find that your favorite combination of settings with SHOF=0 requires Sharpness cranked up to 38, you could also set SHOF to 2 and set Sharpness to 30.

SHOF is the *only* service-mode setting I know that directly and quantatively affects tha Sharpness slider. Other settings either modify the "look" of Sharpness (e.g. SYSM) or they are autonomous filters that boost or suppress sharpness independent of any user control (e.g. the MID5, 2103-1, and 3D-COMB filters).

Napoleon D

03-02-06, 04:08 PM

Ken- Thanks for the quick response, it really helped!

Per the SYSM 3 vs 2 - In my limited experience, unless there are other items at work, besides the sharpnes slider, I personally still think it's very difficult for SYSM 3 to look like SYSM2. No matter how high you slide sharpness on SYSM3, you still aren't giving the image the natural boost that SYSM2 gives you. Sure, you can get the image as sharp, but not without producing a lot of noise. I'm sure as you've done extensive research on this that you're probably using other values to make SYSM3 a worthy alternative to 2.

I've been trying to create an image with every enhancement turned off, with the only sharpness variable in play being the sharpness slider itself. Then, making sure the sharpness slider is at the lowest it can be without taking away fine detail, and low enough that all extra noise (not from the source) is gone.

So far it's been difficult finding a way to get the SYSM-3 appropriately sharp enough without having all sorts of artificial crap on the screen (not the technical word, i know).

It's been my mission to strip the image until the most detail comes to the surface, rather than adding any artifical detail (besides "sharpness"). SYSM-2 seems to be the best one to work with in this respect. Basically, i'm looking to get the image as naturally noise-free and smooth as possible, but still appropriately sharp enough, as in accordance with the DVE pattern (and possibly Avia).

But again, this is just what i'm looking for.

I'd still be very interested to see what you come up with for the SYSM-3 setting Ken!

AHammer16

03-02-06, 05:39 PM

None of the links for service code info are working on page 1 of this thread. Does anyone know of another source for the info?

justsc

03-02-06, 05:48 PM

None of the links for service code info are working on page 1 of this thread. Does anyone know of another source for the info?
To which links are you referring?

I just tried a number of them and they worked for me. Some may take awhile to load (e.g. pdfs).

AHammer16

03-02-06, 06:47 PM

I just think i'm retarded or something. I tried to download them and they gave me error messages. Now i try using a right click and the open command and they work fine, sorry.

Napoleon D

03-02-06, 08:09 PM

I think the question is - with SYSM-2, what PREO, SHFO and SHAP values are best recomended to compliment that setting? With SYSM-2, you are less in need of "extra sharpness" so you would need a minimal amount of these extras correct? I see people on here recomending SHFO, PREO and SHAP all equal to 1. I have gone through your charts Ken so i have some clue as to what they do.

I'm wondering to all those using SYSM-2, what else are you using for the major sharpness SM settings.

As usual, thanks a lot everyone!

ADU

03-02-06, 10:52 PM

Myke256

03-03-06, 02:55 AM

I'm trying to adjust the focus on the corners of my set and I tried adjusting the QPAV value and nothing changed. I move it from 0 to 63 and see no difference in clarity in the corners. Why is nothing changing? I adjusted the QPAM and got some good results and I was hoping to get even better results when I adjusted the QPAV.

justsc

03-03-06, 12:52 PM

I just think i'm retarded or something. I tried to download them and they gave me error messages. Now i try using a right click and the open command and they work fine, sorry.
Whoa!

I think that's being way too hard on yourself. ;) I've seen many of your posts and "retarded" just doesn't seem to fit.

Cheers! ;)

ragingd

03-03-06, 12:55 PM

justsc

03-03-06, 01:08 PM

ragingd

03-03-06, 01:54 PM

Sorry about that. I have the 34xbr910. I use Pro and I mostly watch HD on the video 5 thru component cables. I set the picture setting to the midway point 31.

Napoleon D

03-03-06, 02:59 PM

Ragingd-

Yeah, it is almost impossible trying to adjust contrast using the test patterns since that white box/pattern never actually "blooms" no matter how high you adjust contrast - at least that's what it's like on my Sony. Anyway, it is a subjective setting, based on how you like it. Anywhere from 30% to 70% is usually good. I have it directly in the middle (before and after calibration). That's a more than all right place to keep it!

justsc

03-03-06, 05:18 PM

Sorry about that. I have the 34xbr910. I use Pro and I mostly watch HD on the video 5 thru component cables. I set the picture setting to the midway point 31.
My experience is alot like yours and Napoleon D's. I can crank contrast all the way up and still see no blooming. However, left at that setting whites are most of the time unwatchable - just too bright.

After numerous re-calibrations I have settled at 35 clicks for contrast (Picture).

During the first couple of months I kept it at about 30-40% to avoid any chance of burn-in.

I really think Sony has made adjustments in the SM to prevent blooming and probably burn-in as well.

Bottom Line - set it to taste -and ENJOY! ;)

SurfingMatt27

03-03-06, 10:25 PM

Rasdock

03-04-06, 04:14 AM

30xs955, and I have my picture set on 18. Picture is very difficult for me to set, but I find that anything higher than that, and the whites are just overpowering. Somebody picks up a piece of notebook paper, and it just glows. Even at 18, it's on the edge of the whites being too blown out, so there may be a service menu setting that could be adjusted.

Avia's advice seemed to be to lower white level until the pattern was gray, and then move it up until it became white. Their instructions actually weren't very clear for the picture setting, but that's what I got out of it. I have a hard time distinguishing when it goes from gray to white, but it looks like 16 to 18 is about it.

justsc

03-04-06, 02:16 PM

Oh trust me.. blooming you will see it!!

All you have to do is concentrate on a white area like a button up t-shirt or white object and you will notice imediately that details are lost and you can no longer make out the fine fabric on clothing.

Not to mention if you look at text they become blurry as you raise contrast and lose their crispness.

Personally i would'nt go no higher than 35, the picture looks sharper,well razor sharp is more like it with the contrast at a lower setting such as the middle or lower. The image really does "POP" off the screen aqlmost 3-d like and so razor sharp in detail.

Raising contrast losses sharpness so it's best to keep it low. for an example juts look at text or channel logos in the corner of the tv for cable, or the news tickers on news channels. You will notice that with a low contrast setting the picture looks razor sharp.

For a brighter picture use brightness instead to adjust, my sony looks like a pc monitor it's so razor sharp now and has aged nicely in the 3 years i've owned it now.
Matt,

What I ws saying was that when calibrating with a calibration disc, you can crank contrast all the way up and still not see the blooming on the test pattern as guided by Avia (and others) as the point at which to back off. Yes, in real life, contrast set too high is a bad thing. But this poster is referring specifically to trying to calibrate his set with the disc and in that situation, the upper block of the pattern does not bleed even with contrast set at its highest setting. He's just trying to follow the instruction as closely as possible - as we all try to do. ;)

Ev01vEd

03-04-06, 03:21 PM

What's the most reliable way to correct overscan for all inputs and resolutions? I used my Samsung upconverting dvd player to adjust everything, but when I view the overscan pattern on my dvd Tivo unit or 360 it appears to push the image to the right some, and even up a little on the Tivo. But on the Samsung it was perfect. So what should I go by? The KV-30HS420 does not have any media slots. I used both Avia and DVE to test.

Thanks.

GlenC

03-04-06, 04:12 PM

Matt,

What I ws saying was that when calibrating with a calibration disc, you can crank contrast all the way up and still not see the blooming on the test pattern as guided by Avia (and others) as the point at which to back off. Yes, in real life, contrast set too high is a bad thing. But this poster is referring specifically to trying to calibrate his set with the disc and in that situation, the upper block of the pattern does not bleed even with contrast set at its highest setting. He's just trying to follow the instruction as closely as possible - as we all try to do. ;)Blooming on a CRT can be explained as loosing detail of the individual white dots. When the RGB phosphors are all on full, you get white. If you over drive the phosphors, the dots start to glow and thus grow in apparent size. {Try looking at a clear light bulb on a dimmer. As you start to increase the light output, the coil element will start to glow and at a point, you can’t see the coils, just a bright line (depends on how tight the coil is wound).} This glow/growth is blooming and results in an overlapping of dots leading to a loss of resolution. Loosing detail in whites, like wrinkles or buttons on a white shirt, is clipping and this can occur without blooming. Blooming can occur without clipping.

Excessive contrast in the DV CRT can also wash out black levels as the bright white reflects back into the tube reducing the ANSI contrast ratio. High contrast/picture settings may work with high ambient light, the TV is more comfortable to watch at lower contrast settings in low ambient light settings. The DV CRT is really too small to be watching without a bias light or some light in the room.

ADU

03-04-06, 04:18 PM

Can somebody explain the best way to adjust the picture control? I have been playing around with the control and can't seem to get it right? I try using the DVE disk and raising the control until I see blooming but i really don't see when it blooms. Thanks for any help on the matter.Best place to look for blooming is probably on thin white horizontal lines especially on a light grey background. If contrast is adjusted too high, the lines will start to look fatter and blurrier. They should look thin, well-defined and "un-blurry".

Attached is the sort of pattern I use for my 34XBR800. Not sure how well this would work for others though since I input this directly via DVI in progressive mode, and the line is only 1-pixel wide. As contrast is increased on my TV though, the white line on the light grey box will start to become fatter and eventually separate into two distinct lines (not a good thing clarity-wise IMO), so I try to keep contrast at or below a level of good clarity on this line (and adjust ambient lighting accordingly). If you search through the patterns on DVE you should find similar images to work with there as well. Just make sure you have good definition on thin horizontal white lines.

DVE also contains a Needle Pulse pattern (#4 in Display Setup Patterns). This checks for screen regulation/distortion issues I believe (ie expansion or warping of the raster in bright areas) which will probably start to show at even lower contrast levels than blooming/clarity issues. As you increase Contrast the vertical line will start to bend in the middle.

Another pattern that's handy is the Ambient Light Reference (pattern #16 in Display Setup Patterns on DVE), as Ken mentioned above. Once you've set Contrast, your background behind/around the TV generally should be no brighter than the grey swatch. Brightness/black level will tend to drift on the TV as you change Contrast as well, so use the PLUGE to verify Brightness is set appropriately for your new Contrast/ambient lighting conditions.

If you try the attached pattern on your TV btw, I would not recommend leaving it on screen very long because it contains rather high RGB values and could cause some burn effects if left on screen especially at higher contrast levels.

Edit: Revised pattern and included one for both video (16-235) and computer (0-255) RGB levels.

DSperber

03-04-06, 05:21 PM

Attached is the pattern I use for my 34XBR800.By coincidence, I'm going to NY in two weeks to set up my cousin's 34XBR800 with the SA8300 DVR I talked him into finally getting from his cable company. He's not had HD before, even though he's had the set for several years. I had connected his Sony DVD player to the set with component video cables when I was there last, so that he could at least see what true 480p 16:9 could look like. I've been pestering him about upgrading his SD cable box ever since.

Anyway, he finally succombed this weekend so I'm using it as an opportunity to visit (and have good east coast NY Chinese food!) and to get him properly installed into the world of HD and DVR's. I plan to bring my copy of DVE to assist in the setup, as well as my own printed chart of XBR960 service menu items and before/after values. Naturally his set will be quite different but I will at least have my notes for reference.

I only have the service manual for my Sony 34XBR960. The cover does not include the XBR800 in the relevant product family of sets, so I don't know if my chart of codes/meanings and values would still apply. I don't even know if entry into the service menu for the XBR800 is the same as the method used for the XBR960.

Since you appear to have an XBR800, can you help? Can you tell me if entry into the service menu, write/save, exit, and detail items for this older set are the same or different as for the XBR960? I'm guessing the XBR960 has many more items available than the older XBR800, but there might be some important basic commonalities and overlaps (e.g. in the 2170P-4 group, for "red push" elimination) and knowing that would be very helpful if I need or want to make fine-tuning adjustments based on DVE. Also, I'm guessing I may need to tweak for convergence and some geometry problems, and I'd like to know how to do that on the XBR800.

If not, how do you enter the service menu, etc., for the XBR800? Do you happen to have a machine-readable chart (XLS, PDF, DOC, etc.) of XBR800 service menu items that you could send me? One that would include YOUR own personal settings would be terrific, if that existed. I realize all sets differ and your values might not be totally appropriate, but again just having something for reference is very helpful.

Sorry to ask all this here, but you've turned off PM's which is how I really wanted to communicate.

Thanks very much for any help you can offer on XBR800 tweaks.

ADU

03-04-06, 08:35 PM

By coincidence, I'm going to NY in two weeks to set up my cousin's 34XBR800 with the SA8300 DVR I talked him into finally getting from his cable company. He's not had HD before, even though he's had the set for several years.Zoiks! If all he's been watchin on that damn thing is 480i/480p, then he's probably in for a nice change.

The XBR800s work pretty much the same as the 960 with respect to most parameters discussed here. The main differences I've noticed are that some newer Sonys have the ability to store different User Menu display settings for each input (Mode Memory), and some also have two different color decoder configs ("Normal" and "Monitor"). If for some reason you need to change the default User Menu display settings (UPIC - UTMP), those can be found in the 2170P-4 section on the XBR800 instead of in QM or QT (the XBR800 has no QM, QT or LANDING sections).

Don't quote me on this, but AFAIK, most of the other pertinent controls (including the 2170P-1 grey scale/temperature controls, 2170P-4/RYR-GYB color decoders, D_CONV convergence controls, 2170P-3 input/signal offsets and VM controls, CXA2151 offsets, not to mention most or possibly all of the geometry controls) appear to work about the same as the 960. There are alot more similarities between the TVs than differences (so no need to be shy about asking questions here). Having said that though, I wouldn't just go wantonly inputting values from your 960 chart on an XBR800, or any other model for that matter. Obviously the adjustment needs to be approached with a little more common sense than that, and tailored to each TV to some extent. Entry, navigation, and writing of parameters in the SM is the same on the XBR800 as on the 960.Do you happen to have a machine-readable chart (XLS, PDF, DOC, etc.) of XBR800 service menu items that you could send me? One that would include YOUR own personal settings would be terrific, if that existed. I realize all sets differ and your values might not be totally appropriate, but again just having something for reference is very helpful.Regrettably I don't really have anything like this. Plus my settings are still in flux, and my TV is so heavily customized/tailored for the DVI computer input to the detriment of anything else at this point that my parameters probably wouldn't do you much good anyway. If you're experienced in navigating the XBR960 SM though, I don't really think you'll have any problem with the 800.

Editorial note: Even after 3+ years of owning the XBR800, I still have sort of a like/dislike relationship with this TV (I was gonna say love/hate but that's probably too strong). I dislike (and sometimes even border on hating) what the high persistence phosphors, antiglare coating and Trinitron grille do to my eyes, and have never fully adjusted to those characteristics (though better gamma control, edge control and ambient lighting have definitely helped some with these issues). So until now, I've generally only been able watch it for relatively short stints before my eyes say they've had enough for the evening.

However I like what it can do picture-wise/black level-wise with everything adjusted more-or-less perfectly. And it probably is the most accurate color reference I've got at the moment. Last night I watched the Superbit of Underworld, and with some of the latest tweaks to ambient lighting and edge controls, the picture looked really good. Selene was looking very fine indeed in her black latex, and I didn't find myself straining to make out the detail in all those dark shadowy scenes even once. I look forward though to the day when I'll be able to replace the XBR800 with a FP which is hopefully a bit easier on my eyes and less of a nuisance to adjust (since there should be no geometry, convergence, focus, etc. issues to contend with).

In the meantime, a good ambient lighting arrangement and some kind of player-based gamma control are key for me with this TV. I'm in pretty much complete agreement with both Ken's and Glen's remarks above re the former (see next post).

You might also want to look over some of Ken's remarks re optimizing 480i. 480i has never looked too hot on my TV, but I'd like to believe it could be massaged into something more usable by doing some more tinkering with the various edge/detail filtering, VM, etc. controls in the 2103-1, 2170P-3, and MID5 sections. Switching SYSM to 2 or 3 might perhaps reduce the coarseness of 480i artifacts for example. Adjusting those parameters might be too big a job for a brief visit though.

The Cinemotion feature doesn't work too bad on the XBR800 for de-interlacing film-based 480i, especially problematic (ie badly flagged) DVDs, and television. And the only way to leverage that feature is via 480i.

ADU

03-04-06, 09:04 PM

I've been experimenting with different ambient lighting pretty much since the day I bought my 34XBR800, but I haven't really gotten it quite right until just recently. And it really makes a big difference. If you haven't given too much thought to this aspect of your viewing experience before, I think you'll frankly be amazed at how much a more ideal ambient lighting scheme can enhance the picture on a CRT.

The lighting principals on DVE are just about right on the money IMO. I'm not sure how important the color scheme of your background is, but there really is an advantage I think in having some depth behind the TV to focus on, and using the right illumination. If your background is fairly neutral in color, so much the better I suppose, but I think that may be less crucial than simply getting space behind the TV and using proper illumination.

Conjoined rooms (and an understanding significant other I suppose) like a combined living/dining area or family/game room would be ideal I suspect, because you could place the TV at the division between the areas, and then adjust the illumination in the dining/game/etc. area behind it to provide the perfect bias/background for TV viewing. I would not recommend using dimmers though because they flicker. (And I'd make sure the TV's secured if there's alot of traffic around it, so it doesn't fall over an injure someone.)

Also, try to avoid strong "hot spots" in your background lighting as well, especially directly behind the TV. The more diffused and evenly distributed the illumination behind the TV, the better IMO. And also the closer to 6500K, the better (if that's feasible). Some track lighting dimly illuminating the floor/furniture or walls, or accent lights in the far corners on the floor are the kind of thing that I think might work well. Lamps might work okay as well, provided they're off to the sides and rather dim with dark shades.

A pair of 15-watt screw-in 6500K fluorescents I bought at Walmart were even too bright to use in lamps for bias/background lighting my CRT because they each put out the equivalent light of a 65 watt incandescent bulb. Although those worked okay for an LCD, I think you really need something a bit dimmer or more diffuse for a Sony CRT. (Maybe with darker walls/furniture they'd work better though.) I'd avoid using "enhanced-spectrum" incandenscent bulbs like GE's Reveal bulbs btw, because they tend to burn considerably hotter than regular incandescents or fluorescents and could be a potential fire/burn hazard. LEDs/rope lights might have some potential though. You could probably get very creative with those.

I would try to confine most of the illumination to the room behind the TV though, and keep the viewing area in front of the TV darker to avoid reflections off the screen (especially if your TV has a silver bezel like mine).

As mentioned above, the Ambient Light Reference pattern on DVE (or AVIA?) is probably a good guide for the level of background lighting to try to stay within. I'm in agreement wth Ken and Glen though that you don't wanna go too dark, because issues like diffuse internal reflections and phosphor lag will start to become more of a nuisance, and the contrast between TV and surroundings will be too stressful on your eyes.

A gamma control would provide even greater flexibility in how all these factors (contrast, brightness, ambient lighting) can be adjusted btw, and probably save some fiddling with settings on the TV.

ADU

03-04-06, 09:33 PM

I do hope some day to read here that someone has figured out how to get rid of that annoying phosphor lag. I have never had my picture control higher than 13.FWIW, I concur with everything Ken said re this above. Something else I routinely do when viewing DVDs in progressive mode is run my player gamma/midtones a bit on the darker side. Although this doesn't really eliminate the phosphor lag, I think in combination with a good ambient lighting scheme it may help to suppress some of the stray light/diffuse internal reflection that tends to fog-up/wash-out the blacks on Sony tubes, and perhaps keep some of the phosphor lag on star fields and what-have-you a little more below one's black level radar. Darkening the midtones/gamma results in a more contrasty image however, which may be more strenuous on some eyes (especially if other parameters on the TV aren't well-adjusted). So it's something you'd have to experiment with. You might find for example that you get better results boosting the brightness of midtones and also your ambient/background lighting instead. I think good control over background lighting and gamma, in addition to the other suggestions mentioned previously may help some though. As always YMMV.

Running Brightness/black level a few ticks darker might be worth trying as well.

DSperber

03-04-06, 09:58 PM

Zoiks! If all he's been watchin on that damn thing is 480i/480p, then he's probably in for a nice change.Indeed. His son had him buy a Yamaha RX-V3300 receiver and install 5.1 speakers... for that "someday" when it would be usable. Well the time has now arrived. I'm planning on connecting their SA8300 to the Yamaha with optical, and I think they're in for a real treat since they've never actually heard DD5.1 from their prior SD cable box setup.

They're really not much TV or DVD watchers, but I think things are about to change... not just when he sees shows in HD but also because they now will have a DVR. Their viewing habits are about to be really radicalized.

The XBR800s work pretty much the same as the 960 with respect to most parameters discussed here.Excellent news! Then I'll bring my own chart along, as well as a fresh clean printout to use on his set (to write down the current values as well as what I change things to). I should be able to find my way around (even with differences in the two sets) with no problem.

The main differences I've noticed are that some newer Sonys have the ability to store different User Menu display settings for each input (Mode Memory), and some also have two different color decoder configs ("Normal" and "Monitor"). If for some reason you need to change the default User Menu display settings (UPIC - UTMP), those can be found in the 2170P-4 section on the XBR800 instead of in QM or QT (the XBR800 has no QM, QT or LANDING sections).Thanks for the insight.

Don't quote me on this, but AFAIK, most of the other pertinent controls (including the 2170P-1 grey scale/temperature controls, 2170P-4/RYR-GYB color decoders, D_CONV convergence controls, 2170P-3 input/signal offsets and VM controls, CXA2151 offsets, not to mention most or possibly all of the geometry controls) appear to work about the same as the 960. There are alot more similarities between the TVs than differences (so no need to be shy about asking questions here).More good news.

Having said that though, I wouldn't just go wantonly inputting values from your 960 chart on an XBR800, or any other model for that matter. Obviously the adjustment needs to be approached with a little more common sense than that, and tailored to each TV to some extent. Entry, navigation, and writing of parameters in the SM is the same on the XBR800 as on the 960.I was hoping that would be true, so this is a pleasant piece of news.

Many thanks for the info. As far as 480i viewing, I think they watch the news! I'm mostly concerned with getting their 720p/1080i results to be stunning so that's where I'll concentrate.

So with my experience on my XBR960, I guess I'm armed (and dangerous) to deal with his XBR800. I really do believe they'll be thrilled.

Rasdock

03-05-06, 01:04 AM

A pair of 15-watt screw-in 6500K fluorescents I bought at Walmart were even too bright to use in lamps for bias/background lighting my CRT because they each put out the equivalent light of a 65 watt incandescent bulb. Although those worked okay for an LCD, I think you really need something a bit dimmer or more diffuse for a Sony CRT. (Maybe with darker walls/furniture they'd work better though.) I'd avoid using "enhanced-spectrum" incandenscent bulbs like GE's Reveal bulbs btw, because they tend to burn considerably hotter than regular incandescents or fluorescents and could be a potential fire/burn hazard. LEDs/rope lights might have some potential though. You could probably get very creative with those, and string them along walls, furniture, moldings, etc.

Hee hee. Here's what I'm using for the moment:

http://www.sexybloomers.com/ortradinglites/Halloween/CauldronFlameLight.jpg

It's got a pair of orange 5W bulbs. I don't know if it's the ideal solution or not, but it's better than the pitch black room I used to have. It doesn't affect the picture at all, so I'm okay with it for now.

One thing I dislike about this TV is the antenna and cable sharing the same settings. I have my Pro set up for HD, but it looks really dull with the cable. I'm switching to Standard when I use cable for now. Any better suggestions? Also, this is unlikely, but is there a service menu setting to change the black bars on a 4:3 image to gray?

luw123

03-05-06, 07:44 AM

Hello there
I've been reading this great post for some time
I have successfully entered service mode and made some adjustments. But it seems I just can't write it into the memory. After I hit mute button, "service" changed to "write" , then I hit enter button very quickly but nothing happens. No charaters turning red, "write" just changed to "service". And after I turned off and on the TV again, no changes done.

I'm a bit confused. I didn't switch channel or do other things after making adjustments.
Can anybody help me ??
My sony TV is a very old model, KV-SF29T80.

Napoleon D

03-06-06, 02:29 PM

I have been having a recent dilemna related a little to what has been talked about here. I got an ISF calibration over a month ago. I changed very few settings for my own benefit - I changed SYSM from 3 to 2 (which meant i could remove the MIDE-17 setting that was complimenting it), and I adjusted a color saturation a couple of ticks. These were very minor changes, but helped in a major way. As i've said before, I have problems viewing an image set on SYSM-3, as i feel the image comes out too soft overall as it lacks sharpness peaks, and hence is difficult to focus on. The only way to make SYSM3 aggreeable is to add edge/sharp enhancement, which results in an image that's much too noisy. SYSM-2 seems to give you the appropriate sharpness boost with out needing the extra stuff to slap on the image.

Anyway, after the couple tweaks i came out with an image very agreeable to the eyes..

Without having changed anything since, i decided it was the right time to hit "flash focus" in the user menu. Well, the results definitely looked different. The covergence indeed looked MUCH tighter, as the image looked much cleaner/smoother as well. The problem, the image now comes across as too soft for the eyes. It is as if my eyes now want to look past the screen as if i was far-sighted (I am not). In other words, the image is so soft my eyes don't want to focus on the image now. Others in the room commented unbiasedly about this as well.

Again, it looks as if the calibrator saved "flash focus" to his convergence settings. I can say the image does look great. But image greatness is 2 things, looking good, and being agreeable to your eyes.

I'm not sure what's happening. Do i merely have to wait for convergence to drift a little now, as silly as that sounds? I need an image that comes to the surface and meets your eyes (but not too much sharpness). I felt that i had that, and ruined it by using a feature (automatic convergence) which I am supposed to be using.

As of now I have SYSM set on 2, without any MIDE, LV or VM adjustment activated - just pureness all around. I honestly feel that any more sharpness addition degrade the image. All of my user settings are leveled out (including sharpness) and they should stay there. Sliding sharpness up or down does very little at this point.

As I like to say, it is like seeing an attractive girl out who is wearing too much makeup. It might make her look better from afar, but the closer you look, the more coarse, flakey and scary her face looks. Now grab a towel and wipe up about half of that stuff off, she looks normal now, as she's just accentuating her beauty without overdoing it to the point of looking fake...... you get the point.

But my real point is i had every edge-enhancement stripped off with my SYSM at 2, and thought i had a great image, with still plenty of sharpness left over. Now that the colors are perfectly converged, i have tighter imges, but a less sharp image that we need to strain to focus on. It wasn't like this prior to flash focus.

Can someone explain what i'm seeing, or better yet, how i might be able to fix this?

Thanks!

P.S. Ken did you ever figure out that SYSM-3 alternative to SYSM2?

Update: I checked convergence on the Avia, and it is good. The "flash focus" apparently was set on an unbeleivably tight convergance setting. I think now that the colors are converged - the image appears softer only because the choppy outlining created by drifting convergence has been removed. It is so well-converged it is just taking my eyes a while getting used to the image.

williamtassone

03-07-06, 08:32 AM

Hello there

I have successfully entered service mode and made some adjustments. But it seems I just can't write it into the memory. After I hit mute button, "service" changed to "write" , then I hit enter button very quickly but nothing happens..

Try MUTE Zero :)

GlenC

03-07-06, 03:45 PM

But my real point is i had every edge-enhancement stripped off with my SYSM at 2, and thought i had a great image, with still plenty of sharpness left over. Now that the colors are perfectly converged, i have tighter imges, but a less sharp image that we need to strain to focus on. It wasn't like this prior to flash focus.

Can someone explain what i'm seeing, or better yet, how i might be able to fix this?Try increasing sharpness to see if it improves. Some models actually soften the image when sharpness is reduced too much. You can use the Avia sharpness test pattern and set sharpness to the point the white edges (too much sharpness) to the right of the black lines just disappears.

Napoleon D

03-07-06, 05:14 PM

Glen - thanks for response.

Sharpness is leveled out in the user menu. I have it to the point where lowering it and raising it does very little. I think the image is sharp enough, however the image is so tightly/well converged that it is taking my eyes a while to adjust to it. Prior to the converegce (flash focus) there was no eyestrain, although the image wasn't quite as tight - go figure. But I do know the calibrator saved "flash focus" to his convergence settings, so what i'm seeing is an improvement. It just is such a clear and tight image that again, it takes a while to adjust to.

ragingd

03-08-06, 12:18 AM

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm still trying to get the picture setting to my liking. Another question, does adjusting the SPIC in the service menu help?

vazel

03-08-06, 09:31 AM

mapson

03-08-06, 10:42 AM

synyster

03-08-06, 02:52 PM

vazel, synyster's pics show what I think is tilting on the 1st and 2nd pic, and a overscan problem maybe on the 3rd pic. Tilt is easily adjustable, vertical lines bowing is also adjustable in the SM, also on the 1st and 2nd pics, what looks like "barrel distortion" on the horizontal (horizontal bowing) is not as easy to correct. The 3rd pic looks like the box is cut off on the top and left side. I don't know too much about the 960 but on my 955, I would see a complete box with all 4 edges. Maybe a overscan issue?

You know, I noticed some tilting issues when playing games and watching tv, so i made an adjustment to +2/+3....now everything is fine. I will rerun the tests and see what kind of results I get. As far as the 3rd pic, I not so sure if its overscan....I'm sure thats the way the box is supposed to look but then again I could be wrong. I was more concerned about the line bowing.

MaxPlanck

03-08-06, 11:58 PM

I have a rather old Sony 32" set, the KV-32S42, but the Service Codes are different than most I find listed anywhere on the internet and difficult to decipher what most of them do.

I know what several of them are and do, but not all.

For example, there's one called EYSW, which at first glance, I thought referred to "EYeShadoW", meaning that eyeshadow effect you get when the set needs convergence set, that green or magenta haze that develops around the eyes.

Of course, I seriously doubt Sony would have meant for EYSW to stand for "EYeShadoW" and am certain it has nothing to do with convergence.

But for that and others, a whole slew beginning with "C", another beginning with "P", none of these or others really match up much with any of the more generic Sony Service Code charts I've run across so far.

Does anyone out there by any chance have a breakdown of the Service Codes for the model KV-32S42 they could post to the board, if possible?

Thanks if anyone does BTW !!

mapson

03-10-06, 01:00 PM

I don't recall this being posted...

The 30, 34, 36 xs955 and the 34XBR960 series have a self diagnostic screen display. To bring up this screen, press...[DISPLAY] > Channel [5] > Sound volume [-] > Power [ON].

This will show serious fault counts. To exit menu, just power off.

ONLY reset to zero after repairs has been completed to determine faults AFTER the completion of repairs. Doing so will also reset all user functions including auto programming and picture settings.

Again, to EXIT menu, just power off, to clear the values, see the next sentence.

To clear the count values and reset to zero, press...Channel[8] > [ENTER].

Not sure if it works for other different models of Sonys.

Nitewatchman

03-10-06, 01:33 PM

Thanks for posting that mapson!

I have run across it once when making an "error" when entering SM -- I wasn't sure if I had accidently pressed :[2] instead of [5], or [-] instead of [+]/etc ... Now I know!

DeepFreezed

03-10-06, 02:00 PM

mapson

03-10-06, 02:18 PM

Your pic looks like 2170D-1, 15. VANG (AFC Angle) would help. There may be other settings but that's the one that I think can help.

DeepFreezed

03-10-06, 02:24 PM

Your pic looks like 2170D-1, 15. VANG (AFC Angle) would help. There may be other settings but that's the one that I think can help.

thx

DSperber

03-10-06, 03:18 PM

I was wondering why no one else mention this in the thread but yesterday while fiddling around 2170D, MID3 or 2170P I was able to do geometry adjustment. I am going to look in to it this weekend. I have XBR960 and geometry is little off. It looks like the sketch below but not that extreme. I also need to get my overscan to around 2%. Is there any reason I shouldn’t be setting these values?Adjusting overscan has been discussed many times in this and other threads, in this and even other forums. Yes, the 2170D-1, 2170D-2 and MID3 groups are relevant. That's where you will be to accomplish your tweak.

Please start here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6723557&&#post6723557) and download the OVERSCAN.ZIP test pattern (if you can present that JPG from your PC to your Sony at 1920x1080i). You're going to need something like this, or DVE/AVIA setup DVD's, in order to have a substantive method to accomplish what you want.

DeepFreezed

03-10-06, 03:59 PM

Adjusting overscan has been discussed many times in this and other threads, in this and even other forums. Yes, the 2170D-1, 2170D-2 and MID3 groups are relevant. That's where you will be to accomplish your tweak.

Please start here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6723557&&#post6723557) and download the OVERSCAN.ZIP test pattern (if you can present that JPG from your PC to your Sony at 1920x1080i). You're going to need something like this, or DVE/AVIA setup DVD's, in order to have a substantive method to accomplish what you want.

Yes I went through your thread yesterday. Thx for the info.

vazel

03-11-06, 06:48 AM

JBlix51

03-11-06, 07:26 AM

I am new to this but I know exactly what I need to fix except there's one problem. I don't know what menu the last thing I wanna fix is under.

Alright when I fix these:
2170D-1 0 VPOS
2170D-1 1 VSIZ
2170D-2 1 HPOS
2170D-2 2 HSIZ
MID3
0 VDHP
1 VDHS
2 VDVE
3 VDVS

There is one problem, my image doesn't fully fill up the top part of the canvas by atleast 1/2 inch. I shrink down everything so it's a lil box inside the full viewing area.
_______________________<-border of TV vieweing

_______________________
WHATWHATWHATWHATWHA
IMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIM|
IMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIM|
IMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIM|
IMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIM|
IMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIM|
IMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIM|

Ok that's basically what I mean. The image won't fill up the canvas where the red is and the things I listed that I mess with don't move the image up to cover that area. It is suppose to be viewing space though because it's lighter then the black background behind that, or is it not viewing space?

This is basically what I believe it should look like.

_______________________<-border of TV vieweing

_______________________
IMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIM
IMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIM|
IMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIM|
IMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIM|
IMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIM|
IMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIM|
IMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIMAGEIM|

MaxDam77

03-11-06, 11:34 AM

can someone with a KV-30HS420 give me the default values for these settings? i changed them and stupidly enough i didn't write the default values.

VSZO
VLIN
VSCO
VCEN
VPIN
MPIN
PIN
UCP
LCP
PPHA
VANG
LANG
VBOW
LBOW

The default setting can't be trusted 100%, you will have to try to correct them on your own or call a tech to fix your Geometry. it really depends on what you did. On the previous pages on this thread you have the pdf files of the geometry to help you to figure which do what. It takes times a patience., hours, days,...

vazel

03-11-06, 12:24 PM

i got it all back to normal. yea, for the past couple days i've been racking my head over trying to fix some bowing but nothing i do fixes it. i've read that stuff like this is normal for crt tubes or that if it is fixable it can only be fixed by a tech opening the tv and messing with magnets in there... i'll just learn to live with it.

DeepFreezed

03-11-06, 12:36 PM

I am on a XBR960

can someone plz tell me why we are making overscan changes in MID3 not MID1?

mapson

03-11-06, 05:00 PM

There is one problem, my image doesn't fully fill up the top part of the canvas by atleast 1/2 inch. I shrink down everything so it's a lil box inside the full viewing area.

Ok that's basically what I mean. The image won't fill up the canvas where the red is and the things I listed that I mess with don't move the image up to cover that area. It is suppose to be viewing space though because it's lighter then the black background behind that, or is it not viewing space?

If it only is on top then what comes to mind is it "may" be 2170D-3 4 TBLK but I think there are others that affect that condition as well. On the other hand, there should be a black border all around the screen and that is normal. You can tell easily with the tv off.

DSperber

03-11-06, 05:46 PM

I am on a XBR960. Can someone plz tell me why we are making overscan changes in MID3 not MID1?I believe MID3 is specifically for the HD inputs and resolutions... 480p, 720p, 1080i.

I have not touched MID1 or MID2, which I believe are specifically for 480i or other SD resolutions or inputs.

I may be wrong in my understanding, but I only adjusted MID3 and have perfectly acceptable 16:9 presentation with about 1 1/2% overscan on INPUT5 and INPUT6. My 4:3 presentation on INPUT1 and INPUT3 also looks perfect (without any special adjustment), so maybe there's some "overlap" in effect from MID3 (or not).

ptchristensen

03-11-06, 05:52 PM

I am on a XBR960

can someone plz tell me why we are making overscan changes in MID3 not MID1?

You do not control overscan in either...!

You control the raster size and thereby the overscan in 2170D-1 and 2. You control the position of the picture from the different inputs and resolutions in the MID settings. 480i in MID2 and the rest in MID3.

You cannot make input and resolution specific changes in MID1.

BoloTheRomeo

03-11-06, 06:17 PM

You do not control overscan in either...!

You control the raster size and thereby the overscan in 2170D-1 and 2. You control the position of the picture from the different inputs and resolutions in the MID settings. 480i in MID2 and the rest in MID3.

You cannot make input and resolution specific changes in MID1.

Can't use MID-3 with the Sony 30HS420

KenTech

03-11-06, 07:54 PM

”Tuning” the 2103 Processor for the Cleanest, Sharpest Picture

Sony calls this chip the “Color Decoder,” and there are separate sections for the main picture and for the TwinView or PIP sub-picture. We will concern ourselves with only the main picture, whose adjustments are found in service mode, group 2103-1. (You can likely apply these settings as well to 2103-2, if it’s important to you; I just can’t confirm anything.)

NOTE: These adjustments affect only 480i video, not 480p, nor any HD sources. Included are antenna/cable, component-video, digital SD from ATSC tuner or QAM cable. (Can’t confirm HDMI.)

REQUIRED: The AVIA DVD, specifically the Sharpness video test pattern. (DVE can also be used, if that's what you have. See details in (2), here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7312545&&#post7312545).) And a 480i feed from your DVD player, of course. S-video or component is fine.

What is “tuning” mean? There are digital locked-loops or synchronizing phenomena in the CXA2103 chip that are integral to the digital signal processing in that chip, and it appears that the phase alignment of the video signal is important to eliminate ringing. This is controlled by 2103-1 #19/PPHA. It can have any value from 0 thru 15, and if one varies this from 0 up, the picture shifts slightly to the right for each up-tick, but the picture also changes in the precision of its detail. 7 is dead-center and is the default for this parameter, but it may not be optimum for your set. If you put up the difficult Sharpness pattern from AVIA and vary PPHA from 0 thru 15, you will see about every 5-6 steps that the pattern will occasionally appear very clean, without any multi-cycle ringing or garbage. Other settings will show this garbage, more or less. Let’s call these garbage-free PPHA settings the “sweet spots.”

There are multiple sweet spots for any one TV, and those PPHA values for your set will not necessarily match someone else’s; i.e., yours have to be treated as though they’re unique, and the object is to find those sweet spots! That’s why I can’t simply list the settings for my set and say, “Try these.” Turns out, finding them is relatively easy, and the improvement in picture quality is really quite substantial: improved sharpness and (for lack of a better term) clarity, or freedom from grunge, especially valuable for high-quality SD programming over, say, cable and from DVD. Here is a method that will get you there. (Write the old settings down before changing them!)

(1) Important: Warm up your TV for 30 or more minutes, then restart it into service mode. If you started in service mode, you must power off and on again (into service mode) after warmup!

(2) Put AVIA into your DVD player, and go to the Sharpness test pattern. (Top menu > Advanced AVIA > Video Test Patterns > Resolution > Sharpness). Pause it so it doesn't keep advancing on its own. Display it on the TV in 480i. The video-mode indicator in the SM text should say “480I.” For clarity, set DRC mode to CineMotion or Progressive, and use the Pro picture mode.

(3) In group 2103-1, set #6-8, SHAP-SHF0-PREO, to 1 - 3 - 1. Then go to #16, SSMD, and set it to 2. WRITE the settings.

(4) Go to #14, AFCG, and confirm that it is at 0. Change it if it’s not, and WRITE.

(5) Now go to #19, PPHA, and survey the settings from 0 thru 15. Note what you see in the center of the Sharpness pattern. For certain values of PPHA, the crossed lines will appear very “clean,” in contrast to some PPHA values that will show obvious multi-cycle ringing, like fringes on both L and R sides of those central lines. Write down what values seem to yield the clearest lines. Go over them again and confirm it. (If two adjacent values appear alike, the “true” value is actually between them, and you can’t get there! Pay more attention to one of the others.) The “best” setting for PPHA is one that is obviously cleaner than the value on either side. So if 4 is messy, 5 is messy, 6 is razor-sharp, and 7 is messy again, 6 is a sweet spot.

Set PPHA to the best sweet spot above. It would be preferable if this were a value near the middle of the range, as each deviation from 7 shifts the picture a little bit. But if it’s 2 or 13, c’est la vie! Pick the best one, and WRITE. We’ll call that value <n>.

(6) You’re almost done! Now you have to make sure nothing changes when you go to watch SDTV or DVD from different sources. Switch to each of your available 480i sources, such as analog cable or antenna, VCR on S-video, etc. Check out the value of #14, AFCG; it may have changed to 1. If so, change it to 0, and WRITE. Also copy the settings for SHAP-SHF0-PREO, SSMD, and PPHA (1-3-1 — 2 — <n>) to the other inputs, too. There are a total of five locations for storing most of these parameters: RF, CV/YC, V5/V6, HDMI, and ATSC/QAM. So try out *all* of your 480i sources, and make sure those settings above are plugged in and written.

(7) That’s it! You should expect an improved clarity in SD and DVD sources. Live with it for a few days, and let me know what you think with some feedback.

NOTE: This matter of warmup plus a restart is important. The 2103 chip behaves very differently (a) when cold; (b) when warmed up; and (c) warmed up and restarted. If you warm up the set without restarting and survey the values for PPHA as in (5) above, you will find the "sweet spots" to be in entirely different places! (If you restart before warmup is complete, the restart has no effect.) You could, in fact, tune the set for warmed-up plus NO restart. But as soon as you turned the set off then on again, you would lose those optimum settings. I recommend working with a warmed-up and restarted set. If you are watching 480i video critically, just make a habit of restarting after 20-30 minutes. This whole warmup thing does NOT affect HD or 480p sources AFAIK. One could turn on the TV for an HD show and enjoy it immediately. But if you then wanted to watch a movie on DVD/480i, I would restart.

KenTech

03-11-06, 10:49 PM

A New Approach to SYSM=3 Image Processing
[Minor revision. See description here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7312545&&#post7312545)]

Several of us have expressed frustration while trying to optimize Sharpness settings with SYSM set to 3. With SYSM=2, it has seemed easy. But SYSM=3, while appearing smoother, also gives rise to coarse oversharpening or overshoot while not handling fine textures properly. Can it be improved?

Indulge me here in some audio graphic-equalizer and frequency analogies. Think of fine detail as high frequencies, higher => finer detail. Overshoot or ringing that’s fairly coarse can be simulated by raising the “mid-treble” without raising anything else, boosting a *narrow range* of high frequencies in a “hump,” but not the highest frequencies — a bump in the frequency response, as it were.

SYSM=2 appears to configure the Sharpness slider so that it boosts high frequencies in an upward-sloping “ramp”: the higher the frequency (finer the detail), the more boost. This looks natural on-screen when tuned just right and tends to counteract natural losses in the video chain, since they tend to be manifest as a ramp-downward in the high frequencies. So far, so good.

But what is so different about SYSM=3? Looking at it intuitively, it appears to me like SYSM=3 configures the Sharpness slider to boost detail starting in, say, the mid-treble (think audio), but does so as a *plateau*: extreme highs (finest textures) are boosted along with mid-highs (mid-detail), but no more than mid-highs — like a ramped-step up instead of a sloping ramp that goes up forever. Doesn’t look natural.

What might improve this? Enter the interesting high-frequency filters in MID5, MHLY and MHLC. When you first put up a resolution test pattern and vary MHLY from 0 (off) thru 3 (max), it seems just to attenuate detail, like turning down the treble control — except for MHLY=2. Think of that graphic equalizer again. Beginning at, say, 2000 the frequency response begins to slope downward, but it *levels out* at 8000 instead of continuing to slope downward forever. MHLY=2 does not seem to be the same-shaped filter as 1 and 3: it’s much milder and seems not to trash the finest textures. (MHLC appears to do the same for color.) Well, well . . . Does this sound like the opposite of SYSM=3 or what? What if they complement each other somehow?

(Yes this is how my mind works! Blame it on an early interest in Science, niggling detail, and exposure to all those lab chemicals and lead solder.)

Here are some suggestions for 2170P-3 and MID5 settings that have resulted in less ringing and overshoot than anything I have yet found, and yet super-fine detail is preserved! Use my chart posted here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7162837&&#post7162837) to make sense of the following settings listings. I am listing only setting-columns for 2170P-3 and MID5, and your VM setting doesn’t matter here. Typically I have Sharpness set to 30-ish. The "0-3-0-8" group are my favorite VM-shaping settings these days.

Typical HD Broadcast @ 1080i for SYSM=2.

2170P-3: 2—n—0-3-0-8—0-1-3-0—0-1-0—x-y-z—61 where n,x,y,z = original settings peculiar to my TV.

MID5: 61—0-0-0-0—0-3-2-0—0-3-2-0—0-0-0—0-0-0

I then set up a different picture mode identical to the above, with a few differences:

2170P-3: 3—n—0-3-0-8—3-1-3-0—0-1-0—x-y-z—40 where 40 is a new MID5 column for this purpose.

MID5: 40—2-2-0-0—0-3-3-0—0-3-3-0—0-0-0—0-0-0 (Also try 0-3-4-0 for the 2nd and 3rd groups.)

Tested this on the winter Olympics (indoor venues) with stunning results. Photo-like fine details without oversharpening! Gorgeous! I switched among this, the usual SYSM=2 settings, and the more enhanced 0-3-4-0 also suggested above. On slightly softer HD material, I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend 0-3-4-0 in MID5 for the 0-3-3-0 groups. Further watching over the last two weeks has confirmed that these are really good settings, too.

I also tried this technique on ordinary SD material, tested with impeccably broadcast evening news on local stations.

Typical SD 480i settings for SYSM=2:

2170P-3: 2—n—0-3-0-8—0-1-3-3—0-1-0—x-y-z—55

MID5: 55—0-0-0-0—0-3-1-1—0-3-1-1—0-0-0—0-0-0

For the test mode I then set up these values:

2170P-3: 3—n—0-3-0-8—3-1-3-3—0-1-0—x-y-z—34

MID5: 34—2-2-0-0—0-3-2-1—0-3-2-1—0-3-0—0-0-0

I also set up a “stronger” sharpness enhancement with 0-3-3-1 replacing the 0-3-2-1 in the MID5 settings. (Yes, I have set up two of the picture modes (Pro and Vivid) strictly for testing. I use Standard for SYSM=2 settings and Movie for lower Gamma. But that’s another discussion. None of Sony’s original picture-mode settings have been retained.)

This has transformed my appreciation of SD programming. When the broadcast is good, there is less grunge and greater clarity with fine, photo-like detail (as good as can be had from SD), especially with the 2103-1 “tuning” outlined in a recent previous article. When switching back to my SYSM=2 mode, I see a “different” kind of sharpness, just a bit more scratchy, a bit less attractive, a bit less three-dimensional. And with a bit more overshoot.

There is a systematic method to these new settings you can apply to whatever you already have set up for yourself. Here are the rules I’m following, applied to both 2170P-3 and MID5:

I’m taking my favorite settings for any one particular video mode, say DVD over V5 or HD-720p, you name it; and I am:

(1) Changing SYSM=2 to SYSM=3.

(2) Raising 2170P-3/SHOF from 0 to 3 to compensate for the Sharpness slider differences required.

(3) In MID5, changing both MHLY and MHLC from 0 to 2.

(4) In MID5, adding one or two ticks to the sharpness parameters MHYE and MHCE. In the case of SD material, I am adding a *tiny* bit of vertical sharpening by changing MVYL from 0 to 3 while leaving MYVE at 0.

I’d be grateful for any feedback.

NOTES:

(1) Many thanks to Nitewatchman for PM’ing back and forth with me to help me understand I wasn’t hallucinating these improvements. They may be subtle, but they’re not imaginary! He also helped check out the method for “tuning” the 2103 settings in the previous article.

(2) I have now taken over MID5 columns 30-63. I see no more need to preserve Sony’s original settings, as they have been superseded in every instance by my own. For that matter, 0-29 aren’t sacred, either. If any column ever has to be restored, the SM charts have all of the default values.

(3) In the above examples, the MIDE/MID5 values can be anything, as long as they agree. Use whatever column(s) you have already configured, or a new one, it doesn’t matter. For example, in my scheme MID5 column 34 is now permanently set as indicated, and that’s what I show here as an example. But you could use any column, not necessarily 34. Same with 55, 40, etc.

(4) These experiments are not casting any settings in stone but pointing in a certain direction, and I sure like the results. Some further refinements may be necessary. I’m hoping there are folks out there who have tried out some of the settings we’ve suggested before, working with the IP chart, who will try these, too.

Tommy Tweaker

03-11-06, 11:30 PM

Wow, KenTech you are the MAN! You should be calling yourself Tommy Tweaker.

I may not get to it for a couple of days, but I will most likely give your new stuff a try. I don't have AVIA, however, only DVE. I have been using your previously posted settings with the exception of using SYSM at 3 instead of your (then) recommended 2. It sure has made my laserdiscs look good, provided I crank up the Reality portion of the DRC, although I leave the Clarity set at 0 as it seems to just soften the image. And, DVDs at 480p are great, but apparently they could be better. I am kind of worn out from resetting everything lately, but I will check out these new finds. Thank you for your never ending search for the Ultimate Picture.

By the by, have you done any research on Digital Reality Creation and how best to implement it?

JBlix51

03-12-06, 12:36 AM

If it only is on top then what comes to mind is it "may" be 2170D-3 4 TBLK but I think there are others that affect that condition as well. On the other hand, there should be a black border all around the screen and that is normal. You can tell easily with the tv off.

It's not the black border. The 2170D-3 4 TBLK DID let the image use up that unused half inch space but not regular. The part that had no image now looks like this

\imageimageimageim/ Also the image in here is not full, it has a lot of black lines going through this half inch space, I wish I could take a picture to describe what I'm seeing better.

Edit: Ok I messed around with the options in 2170d-3 VDJP and it straitned out the half inch at the top and also took away the black lines so now I can see the full HUD on GRAW.

KenTech

03-12-06, 03:11 AM

By the by, have you done any research on Digital Reality Creation and how best to implement it?I would if I could, but I have the 36XS955, and DRC is fixed, not variable. There is no DRC palette, just the ability to switch among Interlaced, Progressive, and CineMotion.

JeffD2.

03-12-06, 08:08 AM

Below is a color bar pattern from my 36HS510 (4x3 set). I'm not sure where to start for fixing this. Is this focus, convergence? Please don't judge geometry or color accuracy by this image as it was shot from a tripod mounted camera and cropped for posting. It is only to show the colors bleeding into each other. I have placed arrows next to some of the most offending edges.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f95/JeffD2/colorbars.jpg
Only in recent weeks have I started SM tweaking, so I'm still a bit of a noob. As always, thanks for any helpful advice. :)

Jeff

EDIT- In the user menu, I subsequently tried adjusting picture, brightness, sharpness, hue, clear-edge to off with no improvement. HOWEVER when I reduced the color significantly, the edges cleaned up nice, but of course the color rendition was horrible.

KenTech

03-12-06, 10:52 PM

I'm not sure where to start for fixing this. Is this focus, convergence?This is what a 480i color-bar pattern can look like even when convergence and focus are perfect. The processing of color in analog NTSC television causes some colors to be delayed slightly relative to others when pure bars are displayed, and so there are some slight overlaps and gaps, as you can see. This is not nearly so noticable when viewing actual program material. There are no adjustments that will solve this problem, and fussing with color resolution in service mode will just make some other matters worse.

The only patterns you should be looking at to judge convergence are fine crosshatched lines or dot-grids. That sure shows up color-convergence issues and will certainly alert you to how far from perfect your picture geometry really is. (The latter shouldn't scare you; a test pattern can look pretty awful and still regular TV looks just fine, except for a few graphic boxes or fine lines. No CRT-TV has perfect geometry. Certain games, however . . .

There are patterns specifically for judging/adjusting focus. They're generally fine-line black/white patterns that repeat over all the screen so you can see how fine the CRT's scanning dot is and adjust it if necessary. Color bars won't help you judge focus at all!

If you wish to try it, there are color bars that can be generated in service mode for both HD 1080i and 720p, plus 480i, and 480p. Bars that appear less than perfect in 480i are razor-sharp in HD because of the different processing.

DeepFreezed

03-12-06, 10:54 PM

I believe MID3 is specifically for the HD inputs and resolutions... 480p, 720p, 1080i.

I have not touched MID1 or MID2, which I believe are specifically for 480i or other SD resolutions or inputs.

I may be wrong in my understanding, but I only adjusted MID3 and have perfectly acceptable 16:9 presentation with about 1 1/2% overscan on INPUT5 and INPUT6. My 4:3 presentation on INPUT1 and INPUT3 also looks perfect (without any special adjustment), so maybe there's some "overlap" in effect from MID3 (or not).

I made overscan adjustment like you mentioned in the thread. My set was at 5% when I started and now it's down to 2%. One thing I notice was the adjustments seem to be global. I did my overscan adjustment on 1080i but that fixed overscan for all inputs and etc...

DeepFreezed

03-12-06, 10:57 PM

notrust

03-13-06, 12:24 AM

Great thread. Five stars. There's more than enough info here to write a book on Sony calibration. Oh, and I also have a quick question.

QUESTION: Anyone here know of a service mode setting that will make closed captioning come on when the volume is muted? Even cheap TV's do this.

They seem to have every other possible setting tucked away in there, so why not this one?

JeffD2.

03-13-06, 01:15 PM

Kentech,

Thanks. The focus patterns on DVE are razor sharp across the screen.

Thanks to you and this thread, my geometry is damn near peferect. Though I'm a wee bit concerned that I had to change VCEN to zero to acheive it (originally set at 8).

On convergence pattern (DVE, title 12, chap 20) I see a slight ingress of green and blue on the center portion of the uppermost line of the grid, but otherwise just clean sharp white throughout.

An interesting experiment for tonight will be to run color bars at 1080i on upconverting DVD player and see what happens. Otherwise I'll no longer be concerned about having sharp color bars.

I'll echo what others have already said THANKS KENTECH!

Deepfreeze- That image was just to show the edges bleeding, but thanks for tip.

Tarheel72

03-13-06, 01:34 PM

I have an issue with the flicker problem on a KP53XBR300. I understand that you can do a work around by entering the service mode and changing the Video 5 lock to 1080i. However, I have been unable to locate the codes for entering the service menu to do this. Can anyone supply these and comment on making this change if you have experrience? thank you.

Nitewatchman

03-13-06, 03:47 PM

I’d be grateful for any feedback.

I've been working on evaluating in which cases I may like the new "tuned for" SYSM=3 settings(using MHLY=2/etc) "better" than our "tuned for" SYSM=2 settings. Since for the most part, as you say - the differences are very subtle(even or especially so with the use of test patterns such as AVIA TVL resolution patterns) it is making this task a bit difficult to accomplish and even more difficult to write about ....

At this point, the one thing I am fairly sure about is : I seem to prefer the new settings for SYSM=3 for 1080i from internal ATSC receiver and MS. Not only is there less ringing or overshoot, I'd say it looks like an improvement concerning fine detail as well. I also seem to be preferring the "EQ"(along the lines of your audio/graphic equalizer analogy) for 1080i concerning those "mid-treble" frequencies. That's true for HD and some high-quality images from MS scanned with 35mm film negative scanner, I'm not so sure yet about the varying quality of upconverted material from local stations.

I haven't given up on 720p+SYSM=3 yet, but at this point it also seems like I'm getting a clear "preference" for the old "tuned for" SYSM=2 settings with 720p. Unlike is the case with 1080i, It almost seems like MHLY=2 is causing a bit of a "blurring" effect with 720p that I can't seem to compensate for with MHYE/MHCE/etc, and I may also like the "EQ" a little better with SYSM=2. I've even tried it with a bit of Vertial EE with MVYL=3, and even some short experiments with 2170P-3 controls such as F1LV/LTLV ...

Everything else is "in between" for me, and it seems more difficult to decide on a clear preference ... For instance, At this point, much of the time I may be leaning towards SYSM=3 for 480p V5/V6, SD NTSC(RF or CV/YC), and for 480i ATSC for the reduced overshoot and ringing and more "3d-like" look. And, there are times I like the "EQ" better for those as well with the new, tuned for SYSM=3 settings. But, there are also times I like the "EQ" better for those with SYSM=2, perhaps especially for SD NTSC via RF input(OTA in my case) ... At times, it just seems a bit more "natural" looking with SYSM=2 even though the difference is very slight ...

Except perhaps for 1080i and SYSM=3, and perhaps 720p and SYSM=2 --- At this point, I'm thinking the question of which is better in any given case may end up boiling down to a matter of preference for me. If I can ever figure out what that preference is, I think it's going to take quite a bit of time spent "evaluating"/making comparisions between the two along with a little fine tuning of MHYE/etc in some cases to have any luck concerning making decisions on anything other than 1080i and 720p .....

Also at this point, except perhaps for 1080i, no matter what I decide it looks like I'm probably going to want to allways have a pic mode set up with the "Old" SYSM=2 settings for all inputs/scan rates ....

BTW --- given the descriptions in the XBR2 manual for MID5/MHLY, MHLC, MVLY, MVLC (LPF coefficient for "Y"(I assume luminance) or "C"(I assume chrominance), respectively) : I've also played around with MHLC/MVLY/MVLC a little as well with 720p HD to see if I could further "fine tune"/improve the "EQ" of those "mid-treble" frequencies a bit. While it looks like that "somewhat" may be the case in a very, very subtle way -- anything other than "0" for those(except MHLY=2) seems to be "too much" and involve "attenuation" of fine detail or add'l blurring effect, which we don't want ... I've only looked at it with 720p so far however ... I think It may also be somewhat interesting that for the "factory" defaults(from XBR960 servicecode listing, or from XBR2 Service Manual) for MID5 columns, although MHLY values of "1" or "3" are occasionally used -- they NEVER use MHLY=2, which seems to be turning out the be the value(other than 0) that's most useful -- for SYSM=3 at least ... go figure ....

I’m hoping there are folks out there who have tried out some of the settings we’ve suggested before, working with the IP chart, who will try these, too.

So do I... What may surprise folks is just how similar the results are to our "tuned for SYSM=2" settings - What happens with SYSM=3 using MHLY=2 certianly surprised me!

KenTech

03-13-06, 05:14 PM

Since for the most part, as you say - the differences are very subtle(even or especially so with the use of test patterns such as AVIA TVL resolution patterns) it is making this task a bit difficult to accomplish and even more difficult to write about. I'm totally sympathetic. I have to say that I have used test patterns to examine the effects of these filters and deduce their qualities in engineering terms. But those patterns may be *useless* for determining what really "looks right." For me, the breakthrough is SD analog cable: The new SYSM=3 settings plus the "tuning" I did of the 2103 processor made huge differences, and there's no going back! I didn't draw this conclusion from test patterns, but from everyday viewing of my favorite "stuff." I think the factors involved in accurate video reproduction are more complex than what can be easily deduced from test patterns. Real, high-quality programming sources confirm in fairly short order if you're on the right track or not.

Nitewatchman

03-13-06, 09:27 PM

Ken,

I'm probably just second guessing some of my original choices with this. As, after several evenings of viewing thought I had pretty much decided I preferred the "new" settings for SYSM=3 just about everywhere ... The main exception perhaps being 720p ...

BoloTheRomeo

03-14-06, 04:31 AM

From all I have read and learned about "tweaking" in these forums it was always apparent to me that the raster settings on these Sony models (2107D-1, 2107D-2) were global settings. However I just stumbled onto the fact that the 2107D-2 HSIZ and HPOZ can be set differently between video modes (i.e 480p, 720p, 1080i). I have the Sony 30HS420, and I was just wondering if anyway else was aware of this? As far as I can tell the VSIZ and VPOZ are global and can't be different between video modes, but I could be wrong about that. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

ptchristensen

03-14-06, 09:45 AM

Napoleon D

03-14-06, 12:32 PM

What exactly are MIDE settings adding to the image? For ONLY 480P material (what i mostly watch), I have SYSM=2, with VM turned off, sharpness leveled off, and most especially, MIDES set to zero. The last remaining sharpness setting in the SM i have is a SHAP-6 setting. Anything lower than that makes the image a touch too too soft. Still the image is plenty sharp.

I notice that adding MIDES to SYSM=2 make the image less film-like, as you are seeing more edging and layering to objects on screen. It can even create a very obvious 3-D effect when it is set a certain way. In this case, your eyes may have trouble following the material onscreen because they are constantly having to make a choice of what layer to focus on. From all i've observed, this is wrong for film. The only 3-D effect should be coming from the source material, not from some kind of layering the display adds to the image.

Maybe i'm just confused about the function of the MIDE column. It's funny, but on SYSM-2, when using a sharpness pattern, when you toggle between MIDE columns=0 and a minimum MIDE-column setting, the sharpness pattern respecitvely improves. Does this make sense? Although when i strip the image of MIDES, the image clears us much more. It looks far more film-like, and looks far more natural. Without the MIDES it looks like you are looking through a window to a clear and natural image, as opposed to having things artificially jump out at you. The former is what resembles film more.

From all that I have seen, MIDE only seems appropriate to SYSM-3. For me, it seems that setting SYSM-3 introduces far more variable into the equation, most especially VM's (which i personally detest). SYSM-2 seems to require a lot less running around and balancing things.

Someone like Ken would know more about this than i ever would, as his testing has shown. I only am giving you my own observations of what the images look like.

Does anyone want to comment on this?

BoloTheRomeo

03-14-06, 02:07 PM

That might be the reason that there is no MID3 settings on the 420.

That's what I'm starting to wonder too, I know that the HSIZ and HPOZ can have different values but the VPOZ and VSIZ seem to have to remain the same. As I look at my notes from the default values for the different video modes (480, 720, 1080) none of them are the same, so maybe there is a way to have different VSIZ and VPOZ in different video modes. I'll have to do some more testing to try and figure out, but even with the ability to change the HSIZ and HPOZ for different modes does not mean the MID2 settings still don't need to be tweaked (on my TV anyway, I have to use MID2 cause there are no MID3 settings, which you touched upon above). Right now all my notes on values are kinda cluttered on mulitple sheets of paper (which is not like me at all) so I'm gonna have to organize that and maybe help learn a little more.

ptchristensen

03-14-06, 03:05 PM

That's what I'm starting to wonder too, I know that the HSIZ and HPOZ can have different values but the VPOZ and VSIZ seem to have to remain the same. As I look at my notes from the default values for the different video modes (480, 720, 1080) none of them are the same, so maybe there is a way to have different VSIZ and VPOZ in different video modes. I'll have to do some more testing to try and figure out, but even with the ability to change the HSIZ and HPOZ for different modes does not mean the MID2 settings still don't need to be tweaked (on my TV anyway, I have to use MID2 cause there are no MID3 settings, which you touched upon above). Right now all my notes on values are kinda cluttered on mulitple sheets of paper (which is not like me at all) so I'm gonna have to organize that and maybe help learn a little more.

In my service menu for the 34XBR960 I cannot have different HSIZ and HPOZ for different video modes and inputs, so I cannot really speculate. As I have already stated earlier most 2170D-1 and 2 codes are universal, MID2 is for 480i and MID3 are for the rest.

I would try to get an updated service manual for your TV. Somewhere in this thread there is an 800 number where you can order the service manuals.

As always - take baby steps an document them.

Nitewatchman

03-14-06, 05:49 PM

Sorry about the length of below, but hopefully some of it is useful in some way ...

<snip> and most especially, MIDES set to zero..... <snip> ... , when you toggle between MIDE columns=0 and a minimum MIDE-column setting, the sharpness pattern respecitvely improves. <snip> ..... Maybe i'm just confused about the function of the MIDE column ....

I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here, which is why I'm not sure if you understand how P2170-3/ MIDE and MID5 table/Columns/controls "work" ....

If you set 2170P-3/MIDE to "0" for 480p V5/V6(component input), for instance, that is "assigning" MID5 Column "0" to be used with 480p scan rate from component input. If you haven't changed all the values to "0" for all the controls in MID5 Column "0", setting MIDE=0 certainly does not equate to NO MID5 processing, but setting MIDE=63 (a MID5 "all zeros" column -- assuming factory values) does, effectively "turn off" all MID5 processing ....

On XBR960 for instance, MID5 Column "0" is set up for the factory pro defaults as assigned for "RF" input(which is also set for "SYSM=1" from the factory, btw), With 2(low pass filters) of the 17 MID5 controls set to values other than "Zero" ---- MHLY is set to "1", and MHLC set to "3" Yuck, IMO ! -- But, using MHLY=2(even if all the other MID5 paramenters are set to "0") when using SYSM=3(also use P2170-3/SHOF=3 for "mid range" sharpness slider settings) is a whole "different" ball of wax, so to speak!

Given the "factory" settings on XBR960 -- MID5 Column #63 is one MID5 column that has nothing but "zeros" in it, so if you want to "turn off" processing from MID5, use a value of MIDE=63 for the scan rate/input/etc. you're using ..... In this particular case, MIDE=63 should be "sharper" than MIDE=0. ......

here's another hopefully useful(probably more understandable than the above) explanation from Ken Tech :

From Section #2 Of Ken Tech Article #10 - "Presets" and related Service Codes (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5530785&highlight=MID5#post5530785) :

(2) 2170P-3 #16, MIDE points to a column in the immense MID5 table, which has 18 unique codes (rows) and 64 columns. MID5 #0, POP is a temporary pointer to any particular column in this table, so you can make changes without schlepping back and forth between 2170P-3 and MID5. Example: If you wanted to make changes in the settings for MIDE = 21, you can go to the MID5 #0, POP, and set it to 21. Then you are in column 21, and you can step thru the codes, make changes, and write them. Now any time you set MIDE in the 2170P-3 tables to 21, those settings you just made will take effect. (Of course, more than one column in the 2170P-3 tables can have MIDE = 21, and it will be the *same* 21.)

Here, in Post 88 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5736588&highlight=MID5#post5736588) Ken responded to question from Jsperm :

3) Is it that for each combination (eg video 6, 480 p, Movie) for MIDE, the number in the appropriate column points to the column of settings in MID5 that are used for that set of 17 values (the MID5 parameters?). . . . Am I getting this right?

Yep. You have it exactly right. "Getting" this is a requirement for intelligent image tweaking, as I described in Article #12.

---------------------------------

What exactly are MIDE settings adding to the image?

Rather than providing descriptions of the "useful"(IMO) MID5 controls here -- I think the answer to your question is mostly available in the descriptions of the Image processing controls(including MID5 controls) Ken provided in "IPChart06all.pdf" chart which is attached to Post #1039 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7162837&&#post7162837)

Also be sure to check out the updated info on MID5/MHLY and SYSM=3 in Ken's Post 1138 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7289854&&#post7289854).

Also, If you haven't already done so, I'd recommended digging up the service code chart PDF for your set and downloading it/printing it out so you can more clearly see how "scan rate or input specific" SM settings work. And, in the case of P2170-3/MIDE and MID5 columns, to perhaps get a clearer idea of how those settings "relate" to one another ... I don't recall which set you are using, but the servicecode chart for XS955+XBR960 is attached as/labeled as XS955:XBR960 Service Data.pdf, here at Post 715 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6920824&&#post6920824)

I would also recommend thinking about "customizing" one or more of your pic modes other than "pro", so otherwise your "customized pic mode" is the same as "pro" -- This makes it possible to easily make "side by side" comparisions of different image processing settings set up in different pic mode. See KenTech's Article #5 - Customizing Picture Modes (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5497510&&#post5497510) for info on how to do this.

For even more background+info concerning image processing settings, including info on MID5 table controls and what they do --- You might also want to read through some of Ken Tech's previous articles on "Image processing". Such as :

#1). Ken's Article #12 - Optimizing Image Decoding, Shaping, and Enhancement" (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5637661&&#post5637661). Note that the "meat" of the article is contained in the PDF file attached to that post.

#2) post #707 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6916789&&#post6916789) (tuned for SYSM=2 values). Note : well, looks like Post 707 is actually post 706, now, as someone must have deleted an earlier post ... LOL ....

Just keep in mind, some earlier "discoveries" (such as Ken Tech's article #12) have been improved upon in later articles, so some of the settings or info described in earlier articles are not allways necessarily the "currently" relevant info on those thesttings, although I think there is still much useful info to be found in those earlier articles/posts for those who haven't been "following along" and trying these settings out ....

Utilizing info in links I provided above, I think you may be able to gain a better understanding of the image processing which is occuring, the controls that can be used to improve and "fine tune" image processing and EE, and, perhaps a better understanding concerning how to go about "tweaking" for improvments to get what you want - Including the MID5 controls, some of which I think can be quite useful. I believe there are also a few other posts earlier in this thread which may be benefical to you in this regard as well, but I don't have time currently to dig up their URL's ....

From all that I have seen, MIDE only seems appropriate to SYSM-3.

I disagree, and I just don't see how that can be the case. Various settings available in P2170P-3, MID5, and 2103-1(the latter only in the case of SD that passes throgh 2103cxa chip) -- are all *relevant* and approriate for image processing no matter which value of SYSM you are using .... And, how those settings(besides MID5 table settings) are set in your case for any given input/scan rate are *relevant*, important factors here as well.

In the interest of not making this post overly "long" -- I won't address 2103-1 settings, or the 2170P-3 VM settings here : Otherwise --- Specifically for 2170P-3, in additon to SYSM this would involve - SHOF, SHFO, PROV, F1LV, LTLV, LTMD, CTLV. VM settings can pretty much be thought of "seperately", and for now, let's just assume you have VM "off". Mostly Per Ken Tech's recommendations, along with what I "like" from these settings with my own evaluations/testing, I have these set (for all inputs/scan rates, and for my "customized" Vivid/Standard/Movie Pic modes - I've left "pro" at it's defaults for now) at :

SHOF = "0" for SYSM=2, "3" for SYSM=3
SHFO = 1
PROV = 3
F1LV = 0
LTLV = 0
LTMD = 1
CTLV = 0

If you've got something different from the above -- especially perhaps LTLV or LTMD -- then, certianly we are going to see something quite "different", even if we are both using a MID5 Column with all its controls set to "0".

That doesn't necessarily mean, for instance you'd want to "change" the value of P2170-3/SHF0 because of a different value for SYSM is being used, only that the setting used for SHF0 is a relevant and "approrpriate" setting that is involved, no matter what value is used for SYSM .... For SYSM=3, You *will* however want to have 2170P-3/SHOF to "3" for midrange "sharpness slider" setting, and for SYSM=2, SHOF=0 for mid range sharpness slider setting ....

Now, that being said, I suppose a case could certianly be made for using an "all zeros" MID5 Column, no matter what value for SYSM is used .... that may be more a matter of preference. However :

#1). I'm likely going to want to use MID5/MHLY=2, and 2170P-3 SHOF=3 if I'm using SYSM=3, and MID5/MHLY=0, 2170P-3/SHOF=0 if I'm using SYSM=2. Apparently(from what we've discovered so far) Those are the only *siginficant* changes and balancing that need to occur for SYSM=2 vs. SYSM=3. Additional, but VERY subtle "fine tuning" of MID5 columns for SYSM=3 instead of using SYSM=2 are useful, but it's a VERY subtle thing --- for SYSM=3 MHYE/MHCE +1 or +2 from the SYSM=2 settings, and in some cases(For SD, Not DVD) with SYSM=3 use of slight vertical EE via MVYL=3 seems to work well.

Try this : Using SYSM=3, SHOF=3, and sharpness slider at "31" -- With 480p from DVD, Check it out starting with a MID5 column with all zeros. Such as factory defaults for column #63 -- use 2170P-3/MIDE=#63 which assigns MID5 column #63 to 480p. Except, change MID5 Column #63's MID5/MHLY to "2". Then, compare that with MID5/MHLY=0, by changing MID5 Column #63's MHLY back to "0" --- which makes it "all zeros" again, and turns MID5 processing off. Switch between MID5/MHLY=0 vs MID5/MHLY=2 -- put up AVIA Sharpness pattern and especially look at what happens with the horizontal sweep portion of the pattern when you change MHLY between 0 and 2 ... Now, compare SYSM=3/SHOF=3/MHLY=2 to SYSM=2, using SHOF=0, MHLY=0 and sharpness slider=31 .... Do the same thing, but with *real* program material ..... Any differences you might see should be quite subtle ... Also, don't forget that how you have other settings in P2170-3 are also "relevant" to some extent here - such as PROV, F1LV, LTMD, SHFO/etc ...

# 2) I personally prefer to "fine tune" the MID5 columns a bit for "fine detail" in a subtle way, and that is as true with SYSM=2 as it is SYSM=3. What I mean by "fine tuning" involves different MID5 columns set up and "assigned" via 2170P-3 MIDE for different scan rates/inputs --- and, as is explained in KenTech's articles -- specifically "fine tuning" with the following MID5 controls(everything else in the MIDE "assigned" MID5 columns are set to "0", except for MHLY=2 if I'm using SYSM=3) : MHYL/MHYE, MHCL/MHCE. For SD(but not DVD) in some cases something a little less subtle using MHYO/MHCO, and also in some cases(480p DVD and in some cases also with SYSM=3 for SD) a little vertical EE via MVYL=3.

For me, it seems that setting SYSM-3 introduces far more variable into the equation, most especially VM's (which i personally detest). SYSM-2 seems to require a lot less running around and balancing things.

For the most part I disagree. You can't just look at either SYSM=2, or SYSM=3 "on it's own" when looking at the overall effect on the picture, IMO. You have to take all the other settings into account which effect, or can "control" various factors involving image processing/EE or "sharpness" as well ....... Now, from what I've seen I do think it may be a bit more difficult to "fine tune" MID5 controls such as MHYE/MHCE for SYSM=3 for best results with any given scan rate/input than is the case with SYSM=2. Otherwise, I think the "running around" and balancing things is just as important for SYSM=2 as it is for SYSM=3 in my experience ....

As for VM, I've found subtly "configuring" the VM parameters per Ken Tech's recommendations to be quite benefical. You might be surprised at just how "subtle", and "minimal" VM IS with P2170-3 VM settings of VML=2(for "clearedge VM=LOW" in User menu), and VMCR~VMDL = 0-3-0-6, or say, 0-3-0-8 actually are compared to VM=OFF .... It's a far cry from the "factory" setup, and, I'd certianly want VM "off" if the factory VM settings were my only other choice ...

The last remaining sharpness setting in the SM i have is a SHAP-6 setting. Anything lower than that makes the image a touch too too soft. Still the image is plenty sharp.

Keep in mind, 2103-1/SHAP does not effect 480p, 720p or 1080i -- those signal paths don't use the 2103cxa chip. It does effect SD that uses the DRC processing -There are seperate columns for SHAP, allowing for different settings for RF(NTSC SD) CV/YC(NTSC SD), V5/V6(480i, such as from DVD), HDMI(480i), and ATSC(480i digital from internal ATSC/QAM tuner).

In my case, 2103-1/SHAP=6 certianly seems WAY High for my set, I wouldn't use anything higher than SHAP="1" --- Ok, I've thought of wanting to use "2" occasionally - but rarely. Anything above "1" is just too much and is too "scratchy" looking, IMO. The exception being for my Right Twin-view window via 2103-2/SHAP, which I have set to "4"(RF) or "5"(CV/YC) as for some reason, the right twinview window is "blurrier" than the left, which is controlled(where applicable for SD) by the 2103-1 settings. My best guess would be, perhaps it involves something different going on with the 2nd tuner's alignment at the factory, or different signal paths used for the 2nd NTSC tuner/rerouting CV/YC through it/etc ...

The appropriate MID5 column settings can be tuned for "better", and much more "subtle" and pleasing results than using "SHAP=6" for any given "SD" input/scan rate/etc, IMO. Also, I'd recommend checking out Post 1137 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7289196&&#post7289196) for excellent info on "tuning" the approrpriate 2103-1 controls for excellent results with SD/480i from NTSC, 480i DVD or 480i ATSC ... Just keep in mind, You'll also still need "appropriate" values set up for various 2170P-3 controls/MID5 parameters/columns ...

BoloTheRomeo

03-14-06, 07:13 PM

In my service menu for the 34XBR960 I cannot have different HSIZ and HPOZ for different video modes and inputs, so I cannot really speculate. As I have already stated earlier most 2170D-1 and 2 codes are universal, MID2 is for 480i and MID3 are for the rest.

I would try to get an updated service manual for your TV. Somewhere in this thread there is an 800 number where you can order the service manuals.

As always - take baby steps an document them.

I think I was mistaken earlier, I believe that only the HPOZ can be different. I really do need to get a newer version of the manual, I think that I'm trying to change the wrong things for the wrong video modes (I do document everything though). I need to figure out which settings for the 30HS420 control the 480, 720, and 1080 pictures modes cause I think I'm not doing something right.

KenTech

03-14-06, 07:34 PM

Maybe i'm just confused about the function of the MIDE column. It's funny, but on SYSM-2, when using a sharpness pattern, when you toggle between MIDE columns=0 and a minimum MIDE-column setting, the sharpness pattern respecitvely improves. Does this make sense?The value of MIDE in 2170P-3 has no inherent importance whatsoever. It simply points to more video-filter parameters. Thus a MIDE value of 0 meanins nothing in itself; 0 is not "off," and 1 isn't stronger than 0, and 2 is not stronger than 1, etc. It simply points to column #0 in the MID5 table. When you tinker with MIDE, you are just switching columns in the MID5 table, and some appear sharper, some softer, some really gross, etc.

You might read this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5530785&&#post5530785).

Further, the chart available here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7162837&&#post7162837) has relatively detailed explanations.

Simply put, a column in the MID5 table, pointed to by the MIDE value in 2170P-3, continues the series of filters, enhancements, and signal shapers. The ones in MID5 are unique, in that they affect much finer detail than any others, they can be invoked for *any* video mode or input, they are orderly and predictable in their effects, and they are independent of any user-menu settings. Think of the MID5 table as offering a type of a adjustable frequency/sharpness equalizer for all video, with 64 possible preset combinations of 18 different parameter settings.

The reason why the MID5 table exists at all is so these equalization settings can be set up carefully for specific video types, and then *re-used* for different situations in 2170P-3. I.e. several different columns in the 2170P-3 table can point to the *same* column on MID5, if that's what works best. Sony's use of it is sort of chaotic, as many MID5 columns are exactly the same, and they seemingly have blocked out portions of the table for specific video/input modes. For example, cols.#20-23 are reserved for "V5/V6 1080i," one for each picture mode. An abundance of columns (memory positions) means Sony can assign a group of them to practically any possible video that comes into the TV. It's an organizational thing.

Some of us who have researched what these parameters do have tried an alternate means of organizing these columns: into *functional* groups with columns arranged hierarchically. See the chart in the second link above to see how I have initially done it. Let me say it again: The actual values of MIDE mean nothing. Any specific column in the Sony service-mode chart can be recreated any time in any position in the MID5 table, and its column number (POP value) can be plugged into MIDE in 2170-3. So it's impossible to "lose" a factory setting in MID5; they're all documented in exhaustive detail in the uploaded charts.

*********
[Later Edit: I just read Nitewatchman's detailed reply, and he's sorta said it all, too, thanks! Sorry to be redundantly redundant, but maybe if we each say it our own words . . .]

KenTech

03-14-06, 08:01 PM

From all that I have seen, MIDE only seems appropriate to SYSM-3. For me, it seems that setting SYSM-3 introduces far more variable into the equation, most especially VM's (which i personally detest). SYSM-2 seems to require a lot less running around and balancing things.It seems to me you're missing a really important point: SYSM and MIDE and VM are all completely independent of one another! There's no such thing as "MIDE being appropriate." It's the values in an MID5 column (pointed to by MIDE) that matter. Any MID5 column can be set to all zeroes (I use POP=63), and then plugging that into MIDE results in no MID5 processing at all. Fine. But you would be missing out on *beneficial* processing to counteract the imperfections inherent in the long video chain from the real source to your TV. That said, SYSM=2 by itself does a great job, with Sharpness settings of 20-35. However, try adding a MID5 column to it with the settings #1-12 / MHLY~MHCO of

0-0-0-0 - 0-3-2-0 - 0-3-2-0 and the rest zeroes.

The 2s can be changed to 1s for a lesser effect or to 3s for a bit more. Look at fine textures on really good 1080i HD programming.

How can you detest "VM" because you haven't specified what you mean by that? I detested Sony's original VM settings -- they were gross and artificial-looking; that's probably what *you* mean. But by using different "shaping" on the VM signal and attenuating it way down, it just nicely conpensates for several defects in normal TV video, especially with SD 480. The myth that "VM is Bad" can easily be refuted by a demonstration!

(I hate to burst this bubble, but there is *lots* of enhancement going on in Pro mode out of the box, too, contrary to what Sony claims.)

KenTech

03-14-06, 08:07 PM

Now, that being said, I suppose a case could certianly be made for using an "all zeros" MID5 Column, no matter what value for SYSM is used.Oh, yes! If nothing more, it is valuable as a test reference for new MID5-column settings. You can try out new MID5 settings by going to 2170P-3/MIDE (which points to your new column), and changing it to your all-zeroes column, then back, to see what your new settings do. I can't imagine testing anything without the reference standard of an all-zeroes column.

SurfingMatt27

03-14-06, 10:08 PM

Just curious Ken, what is your SBRT setting set at?

Mines at 29 very close to sonys intended range of 31. Ive tried 31 but it's a tad too much on the smokey side and 29 seems to be the best compromise for shadow detail and black level. if not perfect!

Just curious that's all since it seems we have found similar discoveries with our settings,maybe we think alike no:)

BoloTheRomeo

03-15-06, 12:20 AM

Is there anyone here that knows how the video settings to fix overscan on the newer 30HS420s work? I think mine was manufactured in November of 05. What I mean by video settings to fix overscan is what to use to set the screen up for 480p, 720p, and 1080i. I know 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 are for the raster image, but what exact settings are for the rest the setup on the newer models is rather different than the older ones. I was using the MID2 settings for 720p and 1080i, but I'm starting to think that's not the right approach (like I said the settings are rather different than the older models). Any insight whatsoever?

KenTech

03-15-06, 02:55 AM

Just curious Ken, what is your SBRT setting set at?Let me put it into context. See the chart here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7046048&&#post7046048), Section I, so you can see all of the black-level settings in one place.

2170P-1, #2/YOF = defaults as shipped

SBRT = 29

RCUT~BCUT = 43-21-24

And in 2170P-3, UBOF ranges from 3-5, depending on the input source.

But these can really vary from set to set. You have little incentive to try for 31 on SBRT; 29 is fine. However, if you were down around 15 (as my set was as-delivered), I'd recommend a, um, rebalancing of SBRT and the _CUT settings. (15! Can you say "black crush"?)

BoloTheRomeo

03-15-06, 04:26 AM

Here is the problem I have come across with my Sony 30HS420. I own a Xbox 360 which I spend as much free time playing as possible, for the longest time I was using the MID2 settings DHHP, DHHS, DHVP, DHVS to size my 720p and 1080i input modes. I thought all was fine until the new Ghost Recon came out, when I first turned it on the HUD was awfully overscaned to my amazement. I tinkered a little and got it to where it fit on the screen, and that was not an easy task one bit. After this I figured I had now properly configured my TV for my 360, until I put in another game and saw that the sides of the TV had black bars (in other words there was a space between the image on the screen and the edge of the screen that was not supposed to be there.). I figure that this can't be the setting for changing the image on top of the Raster, cause if it were it should have not created any black space correct? It should have filled out the rest of the screen with the image the game was presenting, am I correct in this thinking?

ragingd

03-15-06, 03:10 PM

I have a problem. I have the xbr910 and I have adjusted sbrt to 29 and ubof to 2 in the Service menu. My user menu setting for brightness is set at the midpoint. But the picture still seems a little to dark. I raised the ubof to 3 but it seems like the blacks get washed out.

SurfingMatt27

03-15-06, 03:11 PM

Let me put it into context. See the chart here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7046048&&#post7046048), Section I, so you can see all of the black-level settings in one place.

2170P-1, #2/YOF = defaults as shipped

SBRT = 29

RCUT~BCUT = 43-21-24

And in 2170P-3, UBOF ranges from 3-5, depending on the input source.

But these can really vary from set to set. You have little incentive to try for 31 on SBRT; 29 is fine. However, if you were down around 15 (as my set was as-delivered), I'd recommend a, um, rebalancing of SBRT and the _CUT settings. (15! Can you say "black crush"?)

Interesting, that's exactly how mine was shipped from the factory as well.Only difference with my tv is i set UBOF to 0 for all the other inputs any higher and it's smokey.

KenTech

03-15-06, 03:27 PM

Minor Changes to SYSM=3 Recommendations and "Tuning" the 2103 Chip

(1) Today I asked myself why I wouldn't want to apply the MID5/MHLY=2 modification to color as well as luminance, which would mean changing #2/MHLC from 0 to 2.

I used the internal HD color bars plus a complex pattern I have devised for memory-stick use that places a large number of strong colors in different adjacent positions. I looked carefully at the vertical boundaries between contrasting colors. It seemed to me that setting MHLC=2 increased the "cleanliness" of these transitions (which is, of course, next to godliness), eliminating some subtle bright artifacts and gaps. For HD patterns, the improvement was noticeable and will likely benefit any HD source material with strong adjacent colors. I'm going for it!

For SD material, even color bars, the change is very subtle, and I can't see any difference in good, contrasty color on both digital or analog broadcast sources. On tests from DVD, the differences on test patterns are just noticable. But I'm willing to make the change on faith for now.

The logic of this is fairly clear: setting MHLC to 2 "aligns" the equlaization of color with that of luminance, but I can't prove theoretically that that is a certain benefit. Sony themselves use all manner of color settings that are different from luminance; but those settings have always looked awful to me. So I am going to trust my eyes.

Therefore I am recommending: Both MHLY *and* MHLC should be set to 2 for MID5 columns used with SYSM=3. I have changed the text of my original article here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7289854&&#post7289854) to reflect these recommendations.

(2) nick2003 PM'd me that he was successful using DVE to "tune" the 2103 settings, instead of the AVIA DVD mentioned in the original article here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7289196&&#post7289196). Although I think the pattern he used makes it tough to see minor changes in quality, there are two other patterns that may work just fine. I still think the AVIA Sharpness pattern is easiest to use, if you have a choice, but you can likely achieve equal success with these, both in DVE Title 13:

(a) Display the multipurpose pattern in Ch.2. At screen center is a small array of closely-spaced vertical white and black lines. Just above is the white text "50%." The PPHA "sweet spots" would be when the bars are brightest *and* the "50%" text is cleanest. The text, in particular, is very sensitive to PPHA adjustment.

(b) Display the high-frequency bursts in Ch.5, and pay attention to how bright the far-right group is. A PPHA sweet spot makes them brightest and most free of noise or flicker.

Going back and forth, these seem to correlate perfectly with what I see on the AVIA disk.

Napoleon D

03-15-06, 05:39 PM

Ken, thanks for the good information, and the specific settings for MIDE appropriate to what i have. I was missing the point of MIDE, which is what i thought.

The VM's i refer to are in that one column, i forget the number, but they include "VM" values. I have set those to all zero from day one. I also kept "clear-edge" on off. But that is reflective of my settings in the service menu. I have read most of your articles, and since i'm "getting smart slowly" it takes a while for me to understand how some of these codes interact - it's like trying to understand a Matrix movie. (Although your explanations are more sufficient than what the W-Brothers provide.)

You mentioned the PRE, SHFO, PPHA values have no impact on 480P material right? I mostly view 480p material, so i imagine SHAP is the only value that comes into play with 480p.

I will look again at some of your articles. My only usual trouble is dechipering which values you post compliment (or go along with) with SYSM=3, and which deal with SYSM=2. Again, i understand a lot of this has to do with my personal learning curve as well.

Thanks for all of your help Ken!

Nitewatchmen - Thanks as well for your input, i'm sure others will benefit from that too!

Tommy Tweaker

03-15-06, 06:47 PM

Just checking in to say that I tried your new settings, KenTech, (except for your newest one with MHLC) and they look good. I haven't set up for any A-B testing (as of yet) but I did have a friend over last night to view a couple of films. Afterward, he asked if I had been making more adjustments and I told him of your recent findings and how I had implemented them. He said it looked great to him. And that was with the sharpness control all the way off and no SVM.

And now, a grayscale calibration question: I tried this recently (and briefly, I might add) and it didn't seem to work too well. I had a theory that I could set the low end of the scale by using the RGBS function to set the black level of each color individually with a PLUGE pattern. Since the results weren't what I had expected, I have to ask if is this a feasible way of accomplishing this? After more adjustments, my picture looks fairly gray now (in B&W; and thanks for the tip about setting scale while viewing a B&W movie instead of staring at those damn grayscale test patterns for hours) but some films still appear a bit dark and I'm thinking that one or more of the colors being "buried" below black may be causing this.

KenTech

03-15-06, 07:39 PM

The VM's i refer to are in that one column, i forget the number, but they include "VM" values. I have set those to all zero from day one.(I thought I wrote an article about this, but now I can't find it.)

In 2170P-3, the four vm parameters, nos. 2-5, VMCR~VMDL shape the way vm works, but they don't determine how much vm is working. (VMLV is simply a readout of what's in effect at the monent.) The amount of vm is set in 2170P-3, nos. 17-20, VM~VML. The amount of velocity modulation is a number from 0-15, with 0 = OFF. There are separate numbers stored for *each* of the four picture mode, and so you can visualize a chart of these four parameters as having four columns.

VM = the minimum amount, sort of like an offset. Set it to 0 for all modes.
VML is the amount you get when you choose High for ClearEdge, VMM is for Medium, and VML is for Low. (I have forgotten if the VM value is added to VMH, VMM, VML, or if it's present even when ClearEdge is off in the user menu. But set it uniformly to 0 so that you *always* have an OFF option.)

Personally I think a vm amount over 6 is too much -- a falseness creeps into the picture on high-quality video. So I have set, for each picture mode:

VMH=6, VMM=4, and VML=2 -- way lower than Sony's original settings.

Now, when you choose ClearEdge at None or Off, you're guaranteed no VM at all, and Low, Medium, and High are fairly small amounts: 2, 4, and 6. The new High is perfect for SD broadcast, and Low works well for HD. Easily changed in the user menu.

In 2170P-3, I have those those four shaping parameters set to 0-3-0-8 for VMCR~VMDL. Nitewatchman likes 6 for VMDL. I've tried it as high as 12. It's a delay factor, and the effect is super-subtle,. You can experiment. 8 suits me, but YMMV.You mentioned the PRE, SHFO, PPHA values have no impact on 480P material right? I mostly view 480p material, so i imagine SHAP is the only value that comes into play with 480p.Nope. 480p coming into the TV bypasses the 2103 chip entirely, and so none of the 2103-1 parameters affect 480p.My only usual trouble is dechipering which values you post compliment (or go along with) with SYSM=3, and which deal with SYSM=2. Again, i understand a lot of this has to do with my personal learning curve as well.In that original article here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7289854&&#post7289854), I paired them so you could associate the parameters with which SYSM you're using. Read those four rules near the end of the article. Those are the rules I'm following to change settings that work well with SYSM=2 to work well with SYSM=3.

fred33

03-15-06, 09:30 PM

ptchristensen

03-16-06, 01:34 AM

I have tried to tweak 2170D-1 (0-16 ) and 217OD-2 ( 0- 18 ) along with MID1 (0-5) and MID3 (0-3) while at 1080i at Full mode.

Everything looks pretty good except part of the picture on the left seems a bit cut off. I can take the picture to the edge using the size (horizontal) but it seems that there might be another adjustment that would reveal more of the picture.
To put this another way, when I input a 1080i signal to my TV from my computer, a small portion of the pic will not show up on the left of the screen. I was wondering if anyone knew if there was an adjustment that might help out.

You have to decide what your reference should be. If 1080i is your reference you need to reset MID1 and MID3 to their default settings. Then you use ONLY 2170D-1 and 2 to, first center and then size the raster, or default viewing area.

Then if your 480i is slightly shifted use MID2 to fix it. Other screen modes and inputs you fix in MID3.

fred33

03-16-06, 06:40 AM

Default setting can be misleading. Default as in what is listed in the service manual papers, or default as to the settings it came with from the factory.
The settings from the factory are mostly changed. If I default from the service menu, I still need to tweak more than just 2170D-1 and 3 and MID-1 and MID-3.

For example, 217oD-3, items 1LBLK and 2RBLK and in MID1, item 8MDHP, and 9MDVP and 10MDHS.

...and thanks for your reply

Napoleon D

03-16-06, 10:27 AM

Quote:
You mentioned the PRE, SHFO, PPHA values have no impact on 480P material right? I mostly view 480p material, so i imagine SHAP is the only value that comes into play with 480p.

Nope. 480p coming into the TV bypasses the 2103 chip entirely, and so none of the 2103-1 parameters affect 480p.

Thanks for your continued help.

For the 2103 menu, SHAP most definitely has effect on my 480p material. This is for the component input 480p. The XP-30 dvd player puts out 480p on my Sony RPTV. If 2103 (which includes SHAP, PREO etc.) doesn't affect 480p, I wonder why it is still affecting the material. As i lower SHAP while watching 480p, there is an obvious change that is happening - as with lowering SHAP the coarsness of the image is lessened. The SM confirms that it is 480p on the screen as well.

My display could be one of the odd ones out that don't fully comply with Ken's findings, as some of the codes he lists don't exist on my tv.

KenTech

03-16-06, 11:49 AM

For the 2103 menu, SHAP most definitely has effect on my 480p material. This is for the component input 480p.I can force my DVD player to send 480p thru the component inputs, and I'll check it again. But all my comments are based specifically on what I know about the DA-4 chassis, which means 30, 32, 34, and 36" tube-based XS and XBR models. It is likely you have a completely different chassis, and there's no telling what the differences are. I'm surprised there are so many SM parameters in common!

UPDATE: Just checked and confirmed: On the direct-view DA-4 chassis, 480p is unaffected by 2103-1/SHAP or any other 2103 parameter.

Nitewatchman

03-16-06, 03:19 PM

I can force my DVD player to send 480p thru the component inputs, and I'll check it again.
!

Just doublechecked it(again) - on KD34XBR960, SHAP definetely has no effect on 480p via V5/V6 ... which makes sense, as according to block diagrams, 480p/720p/1080i don't pass through 2103CXA chip .....

But all my comments are based specifically on what I know about the DA-4 chassis, which means 30, 32, 34, and 36" tube-based XS and XBR models. It is likely you have a completely different chassis, and there's no telling what the differences are. I'm surprised there are so many SM parameters in common!

Definitely .... I'd thought I'd remembered at one point Napoleon D had posted he was also using a KD34XBR960 in addition to his RPTV, and assumed that was what he was posting about here -- but, going back through his posts from the past several months, I see I must have confused him with someone else ...

Judging by his last post, and the Sony KP-57WS520 in his signature -- of course, as he menitoned That's a RP CRT set, not a direct-view CRT ! ... I also expect many, many things could be, and likely are quite different. I'd also expect much(probably most) of our discussion here may not apply to his set, even though it sounds like we may be getting something somewhat similar concerning SYSM=2/SYSM=3 ..... Perhaps it would be interesting to hear about anything he may find useful concerning the SM info posted here about the DA-4 chassis sets which he finds can be applied to his set in some sort of useful+benefical manner, and/or any of the differences he may also encounter ....

Wonder if there is a servicecode chart or block diagrams posted somewhere that's "freely available" for KP-57WS520 which we could take a look at ?

BoloTheRomeo

03-16-06, 03:22 PM

Does it matter which scan mode is used to properly set the raster?

KenTech

03-16-06, 03:41 PM

Does it matter which scan mode is used to properly set the raster?The initial adjustment of (1) the raster on the CRT followed by (2) the video frame in the raster, is described by Sony in the attached document. This adjustment is fundamental to all other centering adjustments.

SurfingMatt27

03-16-06, 04:13 PM

Let me put it into context. See the chart here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7046048&&#post7046048), Section I, so you can see all of the black-level settings in one place.

2170P-1, #2/YOF = defaults as shipped

SBRT = 29

RCUT~BCUT = 43-21-24

And in 2170P-3, UBOF ranges from 3-5, depending on the input source.

But these can really vary from set to set. You have little incentive to try for 31 on SBRT; 29 is fine. However, if you were down around 15 (as my set was as-delivered), I'd recommend a, um, rebalancing of SBRT and the _CUT settings. (15! Can you say "black crush"?)

Ken funny thing Your RCUT-BCUT is'nt any different from my factory settings out of the box of:

RCUT: 45 GCUT: 15 BCUT: 20

Either we have similar eyes for tweaking PQ or it's a coicidence :D

Take care!

Matt~

BoloTheRomeo

03-16-06, 05:09 PM

The initial adjustment of (1) the raster on the CRT followed by (2) the video frame in the raster, is described by Sony in the attached document. This adjustment is fundamental to all other centering adjustments.

Does this apply to the 30HS420? I'm assuming it does.

Mathesar

03-16-06, 06:38 PM

Would anyone know if its possible to adjust the Convergence on a Sony KV-27FS12 in the Service menu? I entered and scanned through the menu but it looks completely different from my XBR960N's service menu and I didnt see anything related to convergence. (most of the items have weird abbreviations so I could of missed it) The upper left corner needs an adjustment pretty badly, Thanks in advance.

Here's a pic I took: link (http://ded.zenblue.net/Conv_27FS12.jpg)

Myke256

03-16-06, 09:44 PM

How come when I adjust my picture size for 1080i on Inout 6 it also makes the same adjustments to my TV picture? Input 6 is tied to the Full Mode and I watch TV in Wide Zoom. Shouldn't the adjustments to my 1080i not effect my picture when watch regular TV? TV is an HS model

ntzineff

03-17-06, 11:42 AM

I did a search, but I could not find a simple boiled down version of my question. I just need to move the whole picture about 2 clicks to the left...if someone can make this as simple as possible I would really appreciate it. Thanks. PS I am scared as hell to enter the service menu, but I know this has to be done, so I can stop going insane when I look at my TV.

KenTech

03-17-06, 03:43 PM

SERVICE-MODE DOCUMENTS & CHARTS REPOST

I'm willing to bet some folks are having a tough time finding these, now lost to the sands of time . . . er, I mean lost somewhere in this long thread. At the very least, the Service Data Chart is a must-have for fiddling in service mode because nothing makes more plain the relationships among the codes, picture modes, video modes, and inputs.

Remember that folks with HS420- and HS510-series sets will have codes very similar to these, usually a subset. Likewise, the XS955 sets lack a few codes that are used specifically in the XBR960, e.g. for TwinView and iLink. The defaults vary a bit for the earlier sets, too. But the charts' value is in their organization of the whole confusing mess into something sensible.

fred33

03-17-06, 06:05 PM

I have adjusted the 'raster' a few times using the service manual. Is it normal to find a lighter band on the right side of the rasting when starting the adjustment?

vazel

03-17-06, 07:15 PM

SurfingMatt27

03-18-06, 02:16 PM

Kentech thank you very much sir for your thread, i have gotten the best out of my sony from your thread.

In fact i have nothing left to tweak, i pretty much tweaked everything in the service menu known to man:D

Just wanted to say thanks,

Matt~

Nitewatchman

03-18-06, 03:50 PM

Minor Changes to SYSM=3 Recommendations and "Tuning" the 2103 Chip

I used the internal HD color bars plus a complex pattern I have devised for memory-stick use that places a large number of strong colors in different adjacent positions. I looked carefully at the vertical boundaries between contrasting colors. It seemed to me that setting MHLC=2 increased the "cleanliness" of these transitions (which is, of course, next to godliness), eliminating some subtle bright artifacts and gaps. For HD patterns, the improvement was noticeable and will likely benefit any HD source material with strong adjacent colors. I'm going for it!.

I went for it too for all the MID5 columns I have set up to use with MHLY=2 for "SYSM=3" ... I was a little surprised at how evident the improvement was in the internal "QM section" HD Color bars.

Then again, when I'd looked at MHLC=2 previously, I should have known better than to try to see what it "does" with the AVIA resolution/sharpness patterns, and should have thought to check out color bars with it ... Duh!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On another note --- I'm trying something a little "radical" with 720p(*only* for 720p) for my "tuned" for SYSM=3 settings ..... It's very much on "initial" probation :

For 720p *only* with my "tuned for SYSM=3" settings --- I'm trying SHFO=0, and F1LV=1 Along with the following "experimental" MID5 column I have set up (everything else in the column is "0" except for the below) :

#0 POP - 31
#1 MHLY - 2
#2 MHLC - 2
#6 MHYL - 3
#7 MHYE - 5
#10 MHCL - 3
#11 MHCE - 5
#14 MVYL - 3

------------------------------------------------------------------

That's MHYE/MHCE +2 as compared to my "tuned for SYSM=2" MID5 column #60, and also with the addition of MVYL=3 vs MVYL=0 for my MID5 column 60, where of course I have MHLY/MHLC at "0" as well ...

Too "radical?" I'm not sure yet, it may require some more "Fine tuning" -- perhaps just "backing off" a bit of some of the above settings for 720p, so to speak(probably starting with MVYL=0 instead of 3) .... Unfortunetly, I don't currently have a way to look at any 720p test patterns other than the internal QM patterns, and mostly am looking at HD programming via ATSC ....

So far The short bit of time I've looked at it with 720p HD programming (and SD upconverts), I've liked it and, unlike everything else (all other scan rates/devices) , and everything else I've tried for 720p+SYSM=3, it's really been the first time with 720p I've "liked" the "tuned for SYSM=3" settings "better" than the "tuned for SYSM=2 settings ...

At this point, I think it was changing SHFO to 0 which I think Is "helping" the most with the 720p SYSM=3 settings .... Just to doublecheck it to see if I might like SHFO at 0 elsewhere as well .... I tried it (again) elsewhere (1080i, 480i SD, 480i DVD with some test patterns/etc) however, and at this point am pretty sure I want to keep SHFO=1 everywhere else but 720p (I didn't look at it again with 480p DVD, though) - "Everything else" all seems to work very very nicely with SYSM=3/SHOF=3, MID5 Columns set up with MHLY=2/MHLC=2 and MHYE/MHCE at +1 or +2 vs. the "tuned for SYSM=2" setting, and adding MYVL=3 for some SD sources ...

I just see nothing I like with SHFO=0 elsewhere, and I even seem to be getting some increased ringing with it elsewhere ... While that might be the case with 720p as well, so far I haven't seen a problem with it .. compared to my tuned for SYSM=2 settings(with SHFO=1 for instance) at least ....

Any thoughts? Not that I'm worried about the "sharpness police" or anyting, but Might I be missing something/doing a little "too much" here ?

Thanks ahead of time for any comments/thoughts !

Dazog

03-18-06, 04:46 PM

nick2003

03-18-06, 05:13 PM

When my 34xs955 goes into 4:3 on the right hand side of the screen just beside the Black bar, I have a small narrow white line that runs down the black bar, Can I remove this in the Service Menu?

If so where so I can get rid of it.

Sounds like underscan, Adjust the same way as overscan but add more to it instead. Use a test pattern on Avia or DVE if possible.

Dazog

03-18-06, 05:44 PM

the whiteline runs thorugh the picture, i guess i could snap a pic with my digital camera

darcon_adonis

03-18-06, 06:27 PM

ptchristensen

03-18-06, 07:25 PM

Hi guys! I have a 30XS955, and I first want to say that using all the tweaks for black/white levels, sharpness, and the image processing tweaks that KenTech has provided has improved my image tenfold! On to the main question...

I have properly configured my geometry in 2170D-2 & 3, and I have set the overscan for each of my components in the MID2 table. Its worth noting that on my set, ALL modes seem to be set in MID2, and I could not find a MID3 setting that did any overscan adjustments for 480i through 1080i. I've also noticed that the component inputs 6 & 7 share their settings in MID2. My question is: is there anyway that I can have two different overscan settings for inputs 6 & 7? If you're curious, I want to overscan one because the PS2 underscans all its games, but I don't want to overscan my other component. Thanks.

There seems to be so many different designs of Sony TV's out there, that I might not be wrong...but...!

Since the 30XS955, 34XS955 and the 34XBR960 share the same service data, I will state that you are mistaking. Download the Service Data from KenTech #1185 and check it out. You set the raster in 2170D-1 and 2. You center the picture on the raster for 480i in MID2, 0-3 and the rest in MID3, 0-3.

You cannot have 2 different settings for 480i using input 6 & 7. Are you sure that your PS2 cannot deliver 480p, cause then you can separate the signals.

darcon_adonis

03-18-06, 07:33 PM

There seems to be so many different designs of Sony TV's out there, that I might not be wrong...but...!

Since the 30XS955, 34XS955 and the 34XBR960 share the same service data, I will state that you are mistaking. Download the Service Data from KenTech #1185 and check it out. You set the raster in 2170D-1 and 2. You center the picture on the raster for 480i in MID2, 0-3 and the rest in MID3, 0-3.

You cannot have 2 different settings for 480i using input 6 & 7. Are you sure that your PS2 cannot deliver 480p, cause then you can separate the signals.

Hey! Thanks for the response. You may be right about the 2170D numbers, I was just going from memory...the point was to state that I had already properly set the raster in that section. As for the MID settings, I swear to you that there is nothing in my MID3 that centers anything, and every resolution I've tried goes off of MID2. I got my TV from Crutchfield this past Christmas.

Either way, you already confirmed what I feared...I guess I'm gonna have to live with one way or the other :( . The PS2 only has progressive scan for some games unfortunately.

Jester0288

03-19-06, 01:40 AM

I accidentally set my KV-30HS420 to "factory/newborn" state. I'm freakin out and don't know what to do. Will Sony customer support walk me through to set my tv back to normal? Does anyone know how to do this? Please help me.

KenTech

03-19-06, 04:00 PM

Kentech thank you very much sir for your threadYou are very welcome!In fact i have nothing left to tweakPlease understand that this is a temporary delusion, and it will pass with time. ;)

darcon_adonis

03-19-06, 05:49 PM

KenTech, having followed all of your other settings for black/white levels, sharpness, and image processing, I have come up with a picture that is satisfactory in all aspects except one - color. Trying my best to read through this thread, there have been several sections mentioning what settings are used to obtain perfect colors, but they are really scattered and swamped in other technical jargon, making it hard to read. If it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you possibly make a summary of those settings, and also maybe the settings *you* use, since you seem to have the best eye for these things out of anyone I've seen. I think this would be a great help in finalizing my calibration process (as much as it can be for the moment). I would greatly appreciate this!

Some examples of things I can notice wrong with my colors, incase you're wondering:
trouble balancing the colors using the AVIA Blue, Red, and Green-only bars (and my color guns).
Reds seem to have a hint of orange to them
colors are not balanced across 480i, 480p, and 1080i

Again, I think the summary mentioned above would be a great addition to this already miraculous thread!

faxtone

03-19-06, 09:03 PM

I have adjusted several convergence items while on service mode but can't seem to make the memory store the adjustments I have made. I did the mute + enter then power off but when i power it on back, the defect is still there, as if I have done nothing. What more combination remote keys can I press to store the adjustments to memory.

Thanks in advance.

nick2003

03-20-06, 12:24 AM

While calibrating my black level i could never get it set right after setting SBRT to 29 as whenever i adjusted UBOF or the brightness slider with SBRT set to 29 the picture would just get "smokey" as surfingmatt also explained it, And when seting UBOF to 0 the black level was just to dark although not very noticeable on DVD's sense HD is darker on my moto 6412 it was more visable. So i reset SBRT back to 20 (The default) and then i was able to adjust UBOF from 3 to 5 depending on the source as KenTech explained in one of the articles on here without geting the "smokey" look and it balances out the black level much better. Ive set my HD input to UBOF 5 but i haven't been able to calibrate my DVD player's brightness as it isn't working right but it looks like UBOF 4 is about right for that.

But this only pertains to the HS420 line and not the XS (That KenTech calibrated i beleave?) and the XBR)

SurfingMatt27

03-20-06, 02:19 PM

Nick, that's about exactly what i have done as well, since like you i too got that smokey look after a while of viewing program material only difference is i'm using an SBRT setting of 21.

I don't know man i guess we were both right, at first i thought SBRT was perfect at 29 then after a while of viewing material it was just off you know, black level too smokey for some material. So yeah i basically did what you did, and have my DVD input at UBOF 4 as well.

Nick maybe the reason why Kentech needed a higher SBRT setting was because the super fine pitch sony's have a darker picture and he had to raise SBRT to compensate? That's my guess and it's probably right on the money, since it appears the hs420 series tv's don't really need to be raised that high in SBRT.

nick2003

03-20-06, 02:38 PM

Nick, that's about exactly what i have done as well, since like you i too got that smokey look after a while of viewing program material only difference is i'm using an SBRT setting of 21.

I don't know man i guess we were both right, at first i thought SBRT was perfect at 29 then after a while of viewing material it was just off you know, black level too smokey for some material. So yeah i basically did what you did, and have my DVD input at UBOF 4 as well.

I tryed your SBRT setting of 21 and i like it even better.
Setting the black level like this combined with all of KenTechs other tweaks makes one hell of a picture :D

Nick maybe the reason why Kentech needed a higher SBRT setting was because the super fine pitch sony's have a darker picture and he had to raise SBRT to compensate? That's my guess and it's probably right on the money, since it appears the hs420 series tv's don't really need to be raised that high in SBRT.

Yep I agree, Your probably exactly right on that.

SurfingMatt27

03-20-06, 02:45 PM

I( know how you feel Nick, i felt the same way last night with my tv after viewing some material it seemed the picture was just too dam smoky and the tv started to look more like an LCD than a CRT which was sad.

KenTech

03-20-06, 10:47 PM

at first i thought SBRT was perfect at 29 then after a while of viewing material it was just off you know, black level too smokey for some material. So yeah i basically did what you did, and have my DVD input at UBOF 4 as well.Have you overlooked that the black level is also determined by the settings of RCUT, GCUT, and BCUT? Absent any changes to those parameters, a correct black level would be determined by *whatever* SBRT needs to be, given an unchanged _CUT trio, a Brightness setting of 31, and UBOF (as you say) at 4. If that's SBRT=10, so be it. The interrelationships are plain in the chart posted here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7046048&&#post7046048). If blacks are "smoky," then you don't have it set correctly with either AVIA or DVE.

And don't make these judgements in a darkened room!

SurfingMatt27

03-21-06, 01:23 PM

Have you overlooked that the black level is also determined by the settings of RCUT, GCUT, and BCUT? Absent any changes to those parameters, a correct black level would be determined by *whatever* SBRT needs to be, given an unchanged _CUT trio, a Brightness setting of 31, and UBOF (as you say) at 4. If that's SBRT=10, so be it. The interrelationships are plain in the chart posted here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7046048&&#post7046048). If blacks are "smoky," then you don't have it set correctly with either AVIA or DVE.

And don't make these judgements in a darkened room!

No i did not know that,ij ust left those settings alone from the factory since i thought it might screw up my picture anyways are you saying i have to adjust these too with SBRT?

If so how do i go about adjusting them and what do they do?What test pattern do i use with DVE and what am i supposed to be looking for?

ragingd

03-21-06, 03:26 PM

So its ok to adjust RCUT and RDRV when adjusting grayscale? I thought that we just adjust BDRV, BCUT and GDRV and GCUT?

KenTech

03-21-06, 08:04 PM

If so how do i go about adjusting them and what do they do?What test pattern do i use with DVE and what am i supposed to be looking for?Dude, this has been explained several times on this forum, and I have written at least one article on it entitle "Getting Good Grayscale." I don't want to do any coaching when I have already spent so much time writing articles, sorry. I'll leave that to others.
So its ok to adjust RCUT and RDRV when adjusting grayscale?It's all been explained before!

SurfingMatt27

03-21-06, 08:19 PM

But my question is how do i adjust them? I mean what test pattern to use with DVE?How do i know if i set them right?What do i look for?etc.

This is so confusing that i think i'm just going to settle with the factory CUTS, and call it a day, because my factory settings are'nt any different then what yours were Ken.Maybe mine was settup better from the factory no?

Napoleon D

03-22-06, 12:03 PM

From all that I have seen, there are 2 things that seem consistent:

1. Everyone's set is going to calibrate colors slightly differently - meaning that some service codes will be more objective, while others will depend on the set, and the individual focus of the 3 CRT guns.

2. Factory settings can be good or bad, but are never "the best."

I recently had an ISF, where the colors were calibrated so that color decoding was 13-15-5-3 respectively. This looked good, but my eye told me this wasn't quite the colors of film. I had since made 2 or 3 adjustments - and changed the SYSM to 2. Now that the SYSM was changed, the previous color setting was hurting my eyes a little. I'm not sure why this is - it might be because the display wasn't quite calibrated around these color settings with SYSM now being at 2, throwing off a balance a little, causing things not to feel quite right with my vision. I then bumped up the RYR from 13 to 15, and everything felt fine.

(Note - i only changed the ISF's settings because SYSM-3 wasn't bringing certain frequencies of fine detail to the surface enough.)

I currently have my color decoding at 15-15-5-3, which is much easier/comfortable to look at - which works well with SYSM-2. But while it feels good to my eyes, i fear that it is slightly off, as 14-14-6-4 is the setting that looks the most accurate.

Ken and a few others found 14-14-6-4 as being the sweet spot for color decoding, at least for 480p material. I checked this out, and the colors look dead-on, no question about it. Unfortunately, since my set wasn't calibrated around these values perhaps, the result hurts my eyes a little. I have to keep it on 15-15-5-3 I find in a lot of cases that lowering RYR or RYB from 15 makes the image slightly harder on the eyes, and i'm not sure why this is.

How different can we have these specific color-decoding settings and still be in the ballpark?

I have a keen eye for colors in film, and without the benefit of equipment, can tell very easily how close the colors are to standard. (i only would calibrate by eye when i'm already 90% there)

I look at the trailer for Da Vinci Code: http://movies.yahoo.com/feature/thedavincicodeqt.html If the coloring on your computer monitors are accurate (which they normally are for the newer screens) you might see that this trailer is a fine example of how colors are supposed to look on film/dvd material - and how they normally DO look for film/theater material.

This is getting real observant and specific - I've noticed 2 separate opinions on color decoding. Objectively speaking, on film-based material, there is the slightest green-hue to whites. Different color pallettes are used for different films, but I imagine the grayscale is constant. You will notice in movies you see in the theater, on that trailer for Da Vinci Code - that whites are not pure white. Others calibrate their displays so that whites are pure white - while it looks pure, it still looks slightly different from film material. Avia recomends 13-15-5-3, but others have found that 14-14-6-3 yield more accurate results. The latter resebles film material more, while the former reflects more of that "pure white" look. Again, all in my observations, as crazy or ultra-observant as they are

* Ken - if there's anything in here you've already explained, you can feel free to disregard, as you've already helped me plenty.

SurfingMatt27

03-22-06, 01:40 PM

Well i fiddled with the RCUT-BCUT and they do absolutely nothing except change the color of actual black, it has nothing to do with shadow detail from my observation.So i left them alone at the factory setting since i did'nt see any improvements.

As for SBRT i settled on 28 last night using pirates of the carribean as a referance while listening to the audio commentary with Gore Verbinski and Johnny Depp some good stuff very funny;)

justsc

03-22-06, 01:55 PM

Dude, this has been explained several times on this forum, and I have written at least one article on it entitle "Getting Good Grayscale." I don't want to do any coaching when I have already spent so much time writing articles, sorry. I'll leave that to others.
It's all been explained before!
Matt,

I read through much of this thread and located a number of posts that cover the waterfront for understanding and adjusting for greyscale:

30, 31, 54, 108-121..., 205, 209, 230, 234, 248, 249, 252, 263, 264, 269-287, 288, 310 and many more, but I believe these will guide you through the "whats" and the "hows."

Cheers! ;)

SurfingMatt27

03-22-06, 01:57 PM

That's ok steve, greyscale looks fine to me right now with the factory defaults, you know the saying "if it aint broke.. don't fix it";)

It's just the black level and balancing it across the inputs where i was having trouble with but seemed to have it worked out now.

GlenC

03-22-06, 02:17 PM

This is getting real observant and specific - I've noticed 2 separate opinions on color decoding. Objectively speaking, on film-based material, there is the slightest green-hue to whites. Different color pallettes are used for different films, but I imagine the grayscale is constant. You will notice in movies you see in the theater, on that trailer for Da Vinci Code - that whites are not pure white. Others calibrate their displays so that whites are pure white - while it looks pure, it still looks slightly different from film material. Avia recommends 13-15-5-3, but others have found that 14-14-6-3 yield more accurate results. The latter resembles film material more, while the former reflects more of that "pure white" look. Again, all in my observations, as crazy or ultra-observant as they are. I have found that since most of the consumer TVs are factory set to 10000K+ and many computer monitors run 9300K, when I look at a D65 monitor (Sony PVM-96), I too, see a slight green-hue to the gray-scale. It makes sense, when you calibrate to D65 from the factory settings, normally way above 6500K, you reduce Blue and Red, leaving more green. Additionally, Green is the easiest for the eye to see and having slight +Green calibration errors can be quite visible. Napoleon D, good observation.

As for the color decoding, all component signals will be slightly different. That is why all the RYR/RYB/GYR/GYB will be slightly different from each input device (a DVD player will be different from a HDTV STB and no two devices, like two DVD players will be exactly the same).

KenTech

03-22-06, 07:18 PM

I currently have my color decoding at 15-15-5-3, which is much easier/comfortable to look at - which works well with SYSM-2. But while it feels good to my eyes, i fear that it is slightly off, as 14-14-6-4 is the setting that looks the most accurate. . . . Ken and a few others found 14-14-6-4 as being the sweet spot for color decoding, at least for 480p material. I checked this out, and the colors look dead-on, no question about it. Unfortunately, since my set wasn't calibrated around these values perhaps, the result hurts my eyes a little.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Color isn't calibrated so as not to "hurt the eyes." Also, you do not have the same chassis as the sets being discussed here, and so you can't assume that any particular setting of color decoding that I or anyone else thinks is "perfect" is perfect for you. I don't see what you see, since your rptv has its own idiosyncrasies. And whatever you choose for SYSM has no bearing on color accuracy!

Color calibration is in two parts, and they DO NOT interact:

(1) The calibration of the _CUT and _DRV parameters establishes the color of white and a perfect gray scale. ONLY a gray step-scale or a b/w movie can be used for this, preferebly the former. Goals: First, 100% white should be close to 6500K and free of pink or green contamination. (Your eyes will adjust to any small variation from 6500K.) If whites look greenish, they are *wrong.* The _DRV controls have the greatest effect.

Second the various grays should be the same color as white. The _CUT controls have the greatest effect, here. _DRV and _CUT groups *interact,* and so you have to go back and forth between them until you have it right. You may be fiddling for a few days at this, but getting this right contributes more to a picture's color-accuracy than anything else.

(2) You have to adjust the color decoding from your DVD player, and that is done with a calibration disk, not by eyeballing it! Use AVIA or DVE and the switching off of various color guns, not the plastic color filters. This uses specific color patters on the disks, not grayscale steps and equalizes the intensity of color *when it is present,* an entirely different matter from adjusting the grayscale. The calibration disks are self-instructing for these patterns, and/or the existing srticles in this forum will help you.
How different can we have these specific color-decoding settings and still be in the ballpark? . . . I have a keen eye for colors in film, and without the benefit of equipment, can tell very easily how close the colors are to standard. (i only would calibrate by eye when i'm already 90% there)For grayscale, I believe you -- maybe. For color of white -- unless you have a standard (clouds, say) or a measuring instrument, you have no idea what your white color-temp is. And in a dark room, you will hallucinate all sorts of color tints to a white screen, sending you around in circles! For color-decoding adjustment, it's an established standard, easily obtained with one of the calibration DVDs, not a matter of opinion. If colors are rendered according to a freshly-calibrated TV in a manner you don't like, then it's the *movie* that has those colors. You can't adjust your TV for every movie, its director's color choices and biases, and faults in its processing! You'll go nuts! You'll be seeing movies as they are, not as you want them to be, which is correct. On this matter, the TV *can* be set up accurately, within its design limitations. If the color is too garish for you, turn it down with the user menu's Color control.

That said, imperfections in the CRTs' R, G, and B phosphors, errors in the electronics, and disparities between the HD + SD color primaries and the actual CRT phosphors all contribute to less-than-perfect reproduction despite your best efforts. For my part, I am certain, after many months now, that the reproduction on the fine-pitch DA-4 chassis sets is *absolutely exquisite.* You've got an entirely different-design set, so YMMV!