THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries [Text View] - Page 8

Nitewatchman

06-30-06, 09:34 PM

shorter verison of this post:

In short, I've ended up with RDRV~BCUT=43-27-16-42-26-20 . While I suppose it's possible there may be room for some "refinement", at this point, I can't imagine why, as it looks absolutely beautiful via tests with various test patterns and while watching *real* programming (HD and SD) since last night.

Does seem a little odd my Pic Slider has to be down around "19~20" for my preferred screen brightness level, but that doesn't really bother me any, especially as the same preferred screen brightness level(compared with light meter on Canon Ftb 35mm SLR camera) resulted with factory defaults mentioned below with a pic slider setting of around "23", a difference of only about 4 clicks on the slider. I haven't detirmined the exact SBRT setting yet, but looks like it will probably be 28, or possibly 27 for brightness slider=31. I've only looked at one gamma chart I have on MS (need to check the calibration DVD's), but at this point(and reading those charts "correctly" does seem a bit difficult for me) looks like gamma is at around 2.20~2.27.

So, on my particular KD34XBR960, per some of the below, there *does* seem to be something to setting RDRV~BCUT at mid-range(average 29, total=174) values vs. the "lower" than average settings equivilent to the warm factory offset(equivilent to RDRV~BCUT=32-17-9-32-17-5, whaich was average = 18.66/total 112).

-------------------------------------------

Longer, More version of this post follows, with more detailed info concerning my adjustments for greyscale, and with corrections and or refinement to values/etc. posted concerning my recent greyscale experiments as posted in my last couple of posts in this thread :

I've further refined my greyscale settings experiments per the experiments via comparisions of identically configured Picture modes other than, per pic mode used for the "experiments", making use of RDOF~BCOF (warm/cool) offsets along with the "color temp" user menu choice, and adjusting Brightness/Picture sliders in sepearate pic modes using "mode memory On", so I could keep the other pic mode for comparison with my usual settings (netural color temp, Pic/brightness slider settings as "usual"/etdc) as explained in more detail in earlier posts.

My main focus here was to see, if by either raising or lowering _DRV~_CUT("toghether" with the adjustments necessary) I could improve greyscale and achieve excellent greyscale linearity while at the same time, a preferred color temp without any particular "shade of overall" "weird" looking slight color aberrations occuring throughout brightness range. As, although I've gotten close to that, it has been quite difficult, and seemingly impossible to accomplish this on my set while staying in the same general range for _DRV~_CUT as the factory "warm offset" defaults.

First, off, since my last post, - even though it was VERY linear all the way from 0(or 7.5 IRE for NTSC if you want to get really technical) to 100 IRE -- I noticed via these comparisions to the settings mentioned below that it was quite apparent my previous RDRV~BCUT settings of 32-18-8-23-17-14, were not only on the "cool" side CT wise, it was also slightly -red and, to a lesser extent +blue(or +green a little as well), to the extent of causing a slight "aqua-greensish/bluish" overall color tone to the greyscale. So, because of that, the report I provided in last post which seemed to indicate a greater "difference" needed for +RCUT was erronous.

First, I tried starting by raising to the equivilent of "RDRV=45", and, without spending a lot of time on it, I came up with equivilent RDRV~BCUT = "47-31-20-46-30-23" (note: I erronously reported RDRV as "46" for these settings in earlier post). Having adjusted those fairly quickly for good greyscale linearity, This however resulted in a CT perceivably a bit "cooler" than the settings mentioned above, as well as it appeared, a bit +Blue and +red overall throughout brightness range. To the extent it didn't look promising, except I noticed I had gotten rid of that weird "aqua bluish/greenish" tint to things.

So, I then tried lowering the "equivilent of" RDRV a few "clicks", and adjusting the other _DRV/_CUT as necessary for CT and greyscale linearity throughout brightness range ... From this, I ended up with settings of 43-27-16-42-26-20. Although the method I used to do this was *NOT* to simply "lower" everything 4 clicks from the settings mentioned in last paragraph -- surprise, surprise, I just noticed when writing this post, as it turns out that is *exact* result. In short, with these settings, for *eureka* .. For whatever reason, something "magic" happened, in the sense that the results I have been looking for Greyscale wise all along FINALLY appeared on my screen ....

To me, when Greyscale(and black/white levels are set appropriately, Gamma in range of ~2.20 and and accurate color decoding is occuring) is set "just right", for lack of a better way to say it ... the result I get with real programming appears very "lifelike", or "photo-realistic" across the entire brightness range, and there is no, one apparent color of aberration(any one particular color "standing out" more than others) with Greyscale charts or B&W programming. Or, as another way to say it ... for example, you get the "perfect looking" CT, with Nice Warm whites, and "black blacks" and "pleasing" midtones of (generally) "neutral(but "lifelike looking" if that makes sense) greys in between.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

So, next, using RDRV~BCUT= 43-27-16-42-26-20 as "reference", I then endeavored to try to "match" the greyscale with an offset equivilent starting of for instance, "RDRV=32" as closely as possible with a Offset+different pic mode(different black/white level settings per pic/brightness sliders as necessary) for comparsion. Surprisingly, I was able to get much closer than what I had thought was possible before, but still not quite "close enough" per the below settings/info :

RDRV~BCUT = 32-18-8-30-17-11 - This is VERY close to matching overall, however, it results in an annoying "yellowishness", most noticed by my eyes at both higher and lower IRE's.

RDRV~BCUT = 32-17-7-28-17-13 - While this matches in lower brightness levels, extremely closely, mid-High brightness levels(especially High IRE's) look a little "cool", and also are "pinkish".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Noticing that the biggest "change" needed to keep greyscale "close to the same" when "rasing the DRV/CUTS" was a change in RCUT -- I also tried several other settings, using RDRV= 34, 35 and 38 to start with. I didn't spend a lot of time on it(as it seemed unnecessary) but, I could come up with nothing "as good" as either my settings mentioned above starting with "RDRV=32", nor the settings starting with "RDRV=43". HOWEVER, I did notice the necessary larger, change in RCUT(as compared to other _DRV/_CUT settings) which was needed when going between settings starting with "RDRV=32" and "RDRV=43" was needed for these 3 settings in the mid~high 30's for "RDRV" as well. I can't explain at this point why I didn't notice this change between the settings starting with "RDRV=43" and "RDRV=47", other than to again point out, given that I had seen something I didn't like when I first moved the settings that "high", I didn't spend much time with it, and chances are, it may need a little "higher" RCUT as well.

So(and I *did* look closely enough at this this time to feel relatively confident about reporting it accurately) ------ on MY particular set, Between RDRV~BCUT = 32-18-8-30-17-11(or 32-17-7-28-17-13), and RDRV~BCUT 43-27-16-42-26-20, both of which produce VERY similar(but not quite exact) greyscale(linearity and CT wise) given white/black levels are adjusted "differently" accordingly ----- For convienience(in case it's of some use to others, although I think it's probably very doubtful any two sets will track "exactly" the same), The DRV/CUT's "tracked" as follows, and, the testing I did seemed to indicate the same ratio would apply for RDRV~BCUT which also somewhat closely match those greyscale results, with RDRV starting at "34, 35, or 38" (and I expect anywhere at least in the range between RDRV=32 and RDRV=43).

RDRV = +11
GDRV = +9 (or +10)
BDRV = + 8 (or +9)
RCUT = ~ +12 or +14
GCUT = +9
BCUT = ~ +7 or +9

ziltomil

07-01-06, 07:19 AM

I need some help.

I was trying to fix overscan issues with my 30XS955 and I noticed the electron beam doesn't draw the whole picture. So even though I maximized the viewable picture on screen, I'm still missing some picture around the edge that isn't being drawn, particuarly the left side.

How do I fix this?

Nitewatchman

07-01-06, 11:39 AM

zitomil,

Search this thread for such items as "HBLK", "RBLK" or "LBLK" or "blanking" or "shutter" and I'd think you should find info pertaining to your issue. The latter portion of the below post for instance, contains some info which should be of interest :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5906338&highlight=blanking#post5906338

ziltomil

07-01-06, 10:30 PM

JoeKing

07-02-06, 06:03 PM

For people with 34xbr960 and HD DVD players... I have found an amazingly good screen for adjusting focus! If you go into the setup screen for the player, go to maintainence, then go to update, then hit OK, at the license agreement page there is the smallest text ever and it covers the entire screen (even to the extreme edges)... this screen will show even the slightest imperfections as far as focus goes. The text does not quite hit the extreme upper right portion of the screen. This can be easily solved however if you do horizontal expand within your set you can get the upper right portion of the screen covered. Next, adjust focus.

The first focus value was changed to 10.... The focus adjustment for the middle portion of the screen(DPDC?) was changed from 43 to 41... and the last two focus adjustments(DF and DQP?) were changed from 34 and 30 to 38 and 31... All text was ledgable and unsmeared when I was finished regardless of how far along the edges the text was.

Text really is a lot better than dots as far as adjusting focus imo because you can really see the difference unliKe with dots where the shape of the dot changes as it gets smaller and when you have the smallest dots, you do not neccessarily have the sharpest focus.

Here is something else I noticed... When I put DF lower than the default of 34, I felt I got reddish whites... When I put DF to 38 I feel that for some reason images appeared a little green at times... It is very slight though and I don't know if I am perceiving something that isn't there or not... I also think that after messing with the set's CUTs and DRIVES I have become more sensitive to the set's color.

RWetmore

07-03-06, 12:52 AM

For people with 34xbr960 and HD DVD players... I have found an amazingly good screen for adjusting focus! If you go into the setup screen for the player, go to maintainence, then go to update, then hit OK, at the license agreement page there is the smallest text ever and it covers the entire screen (even to the extreme edges)... this screen will show even the slightest imperfections as far as focus goes. The text does not quite hit the extreme upper right portion of the screen. This can be easily solved however if you do horizontal expand within your set you can get the upper right portion of the screen covered. Next, adjust focus.

The first focus value was changed to 10.... The focus adjustment for the middle portion of the screen(DPDC?) was changed from 43 to 41... and the last two focus adjustments(DF and DQP?) were changed from 34 and 30 to 38 and 31... All text was ledgable and unsmeared when I was finished regardless of how far along the edges the text was.

Text really is a lot better than dots as far as adjusting focus imo because you can really see the difference unliKe with dots where the shape of the dot changes as it gets smaller and when you have the smallest dots, you do not neccessarily have the sharpest focus.

Wow, thanks a bunch for posting this. I hadn't been able to really adjust my focus very well because I didn't have a good pattern to use, but this worked great. Highly recommended.

jcrhunter

07-03-06, 05:05 PM

I just took delivery of a new Sony XBR970 today and figured I'd start out simply in Service mode by fixing its substantial vertical and horizontal overscan. I saw a minor horizontal pincusion problem which was easily fixed, and I then hit Mute and Enter to save my new settings. For some reason, that brought up the built-in cross-hatch generator and now I connot get rid of it.

None of the remote's buttons will take me back to the regular display, and unplugging the set and turning it back on just gets me about 1 second of regular video before the cross-hatch kicks in again. I've tried re-entering Service mode, but even then I can only seem to get the cross-hatch. I read somewhere that the TV/Video button is supposed to control the built-in cross-hatch pattern, but pressing it doesn't appear to have any effect.

Any suggestions to get me back to regular viewing mode would be very much appreciated.

Thanks

Colin Hunter

ptchristensen

07-03-06, 05:24 PM

jcrhunter

07-03-06, 05:55 PM

Read #1426

Thank you very much for the pointer - the information worked and I'm now able to view video once more. I'd tried searching the thread before postimg my question but I'd searched on "crosshatch" which didn't give anything useful.

Again, many thanks, and so quickly as well!

Colin Hunter

aleavsf

07-04-06, 01:56 PM

I have a WEGA KV-29FS110 CRT, 29" and I have some doubts:

1) If anybody has a similar model, wich values you have for the SCON, SHUE, SCOL & SBRT parameters of the SM (both for PAL-N and NTSC)?

2) When full withe screen appears, I can see a soften pink circle arround the screen... did anybody know why this happens?

3) Is there any posibility or a parameter in the SM to add numbers to the bars when setting the levels of color, contrast, etc. in the standard menu? this model came with small horizontal bars that make a long horizontal bar, but no numbers!!! it's very unconfortable

like this:

contrast ||||||||||||
brigthnes |||||||||
color ||||||||||||||

4) I can't find Y-DC parameter... did anybody know any other name for this parameter?

Sorry for my english
Thanks in advance!!!! :D

Alex

corlay

07-05-06, 04:04 PM

Hello All.
*great* discussion!...

I'm new to HDTV Ownership, and calibration;
but I've been lurking in this forum for a few weeks now;
and have read and learned as much as I can.

When I purchased my 30HS420 a few weeks ago
(new, factory-sealed @ a local retailer on *wicked* clearance sale)
I originally only intended to purchace DVE and clibrate via the User Menu controls only. But after making compromises for 'red push', and not being totally happy with the resultant clarity; I decided to follow how-to-instructions in this thread and enter the Service Menu.

So far, I'm extermely impressed!

Last night I adjusted for:
(please keep in mind that I use my set for standard cable (RF) 480i & DVD (component) 480p inputs only right now. No 1080 at all...)

2170P-1: SBRT
(with the User Menu Brightness centered, I only had to adjust this a point or two for DVD (component input)...still have to adjust UBOF for RF input )

2170P-3: SYSM
(set to 3 for 480p (DVD, component) and 2 for 480i (RF, standard cable)

2170P-3: VMLV-VMDL
(all set to 0)

2170P-3: SHOF
(set to 0)

2170P-3: VM-VML
(all set to 0)

2170P-4: RYR - GYB
(I ended up with 10, 15, 6, 2? See my remaining questions below...)

2170D-4: QPDC
(with User Menu Sharpness centered, I found the factory setting (29) to be correct; and frankly, am too chicken to mess with the more specific settings in this group )

MID 5: MHLY-MVCE
(all set to 0; RF (cable) & Component (DVD) inputs)

In making these adjustments I have some questions:

1. Using the DVE color calibration slide, when setting the levels I know that the affected color blocks for each color (blue, red, green) should match *eachother*; but should they also be set to "blend" in with the 75% gray background as well?
I have trouble getting green, especially, to blend with the background. My resultant calibrated settings for RYR - GYB of 10-15-6-2 seem to differ quite a bit from the common reported settings in this forum? Especially the first and last numbers...This calibration was done with the DVE filters. Tonight I'll try setting again by adjusting 2170P-2: RGBS settings to gate the color output.

2. I've been reading here that the wholesale setting of the VM* codes to 0 is not a blanket solution. Any specific instructions out there for tweaking for cable (RF) and DVD (component) inputs?

3. My DVD player (Pioneer 563A) did not output the -4% black (for the Pulge test pattern in DVE) at it's centered setting for Brightness. So, I jumped it up one click, and now it does display the -4% black. Is this going to affect other inputs negatively? Is this where setting UBOF comes in to play?

4. When calibrating with DVE, should I be sending 480p or 480i from the player? Does it matter?

5. I haven't come across any info on utilizing the Service Codes for setting Picture? Do most of you just adjust this via the User Menu? (All other settings 'centered'?) Also, I have a lot of trouble guaging where to set Picture. My set just doesn't go into very obvious blooming. Any advice? (Although, I've independently set it 4 times now, and I always end up at the *exact* same setting of 27....)

6. My set does have a geometry issue: it bends outward in the lower left corner. This is something that is servicable under Sony 90 day warranty, right? I'd rather have a Tech come out and fix this, rather than messing in the Service Menus myself. Most of the example docs posted here list symmetrical geometry irregularities. But this is definitely just on one side.

My next steps:

1. I may try and optimize sharpness a bit more, and 'tune' it for my two inputs (dvd, cable). I think I'll start with KenTech's article on '”Tuning” the 2103 Processor for the Cleanest, Sharpest Picture'. And maybe play with mimicing some of his posted examples for the 2170P-3:VM* series, MID 5 group, and 2170P-3: SYSM...

2. There's *no way* I'm going to try and adjust grayscale and/or gamma. I'm just too chicken. I don't trust my eye trying to match overcast skies outside... <g> The discussions in this thread start out in a managable realm, for me; but toward the end it's getting way over my hurting head...<g> I'm also guessing that these later tweaks are much more subtle that the earlier, well documented ones that I've started to make?

All in all, I'm excited to be able to improve the picture so strikingly. And also a bit dissapointed that they just don't ship 'em this way! And I'm glad I bought a Sony. (I looked at Toshiba's briefly, lured by lower price and smaller size....)

--
corlay

KenTech

07-05-06, 06:38 PM

3) Is there any posibility or a parameter in the SM to add numbers to the bars when setting the levels of color, contrast, etc. in the standard menu?I have never seen any setting on our DA-4-based TVs (the service mode we know) that can do this. The design of the user-menu has numbers built-in, and I see no options for adding or removing the numbers. I understand your frustration! I hate those "bars" with no numbers!4) I can't find Y-DC parameter... did anybody know any other name for this parameter?I will venture a guess that it might be the DC-restoration setting, i.e. what determines whether the black level stays exactly the same when the video material goes from dim to very bright. In our service mode, that parameter sems to be 2170P-4/DCTR. Here are the descriptions from an 34XBR2 manual (in 2170P-4):

DCTR = DC transfer ratio. 0=103%, 1-100%, 2=93%, 3=85%. [I leave this set to 1.]
DPIC or APED = Auto pedestal level. 0=OFF, 1-3 = IRE "kneedown" of 30, 35, and 40. [Set to 0.]
DSBO = Sub-brightness offset for UBLK (?). 0=-7, 7=0, 15=+8 "steps." [Set to 7.]

There are also two settings in 2103-1 which seem to duplicate a couple of these:

ATPD = Auto pedestal point. 0="through," 1=20 IRE, 2=30 IRE, 3=30 IRE.
DCTR = DC transfer ratio. 0=100%, 1=95%, 2=90%, 3=85%.
[These last are set ot 0 on my set.]

I have not experimented much with these settings. I don't want the TV messing with my black level, so I have tried to disable all such effects. The above settings depend on the value of BLK, the master setting for auto-black-level feature; i.e. each has four possible values that are preset for BLK 0 thru 3. I have BLK=0. Examining the data charts makes these relationships much more plain.

Hope this helps.

KenTech

07-05-06, 06:45 PM

1. Using the DVE color calibration slide, when setting the levels I know that the affected color blocks for each color (blue, red, green) should match *eachother*; but should they also be set to "blend" in with the 75% gray background as well?Welcome to the Forum! Yes, they should. Do them in the order blue-red-green. Use the blue to adjust Color and Hue, too before proceeding.I have trouble getting green, especially, to blend with the background. My resultant calibrated settings for RYR - GYB of 10-15-6-2 seem to differ quite a bit from the common reported settings in this forum? Especially the first and last numbers...This calibration was done with the DVE filters. Tonight I'll try setting again by adjusting 2170P-2: RGBS settings to gate the color output.I would toss the plastic filter card and, for sure, and use the RGBS controls instead: 7=normal, 4=red, 2=green, 1=blue, and (watch out!) 0=black screen. If you hit 0 accidentally, just go back up to another color. Most folks have compromised on settings near 14-14-6-4. Even when I vacillate among different settings for the first two parameters, the -6-4 part seems solid.

The HS420 uses different phosphors from the newer fine-pitch tubes, but I'll bet that doesn't affect the above color settings.

irhxcbcziuzxs

07-05-06, 11:28 PM

yes?

yes?

KenTech

07-06-06, 02:40 AM

yes?Maybe. :)

corlay

07-06-06, 09:37 AM

Welcome to the Forum!

Thanks for the warm welcome.
What an invaluable resource this is!

Use the blue to adjust Color and Hue, too before proceeding.

Ahh... this is what I wasn't doing. I was just centering the User Menu for Color & Hue; and calibrating Red, Green from there. Blue is so deep and dark, that it looked close enough this way; but now that I've made adjustments to UCOF (2) & UHOF (3) Blue is right on. Thanks for the clarification...

I would toss the plastic filter card and, for sure,

*WOW* what a difference. *Much* easier to calibrate the color with RGBS...

Most folks have compromised on settings near 14-14-6-4. Even when I vacillate among different settings for the first two parameters, the -6-4 part seems solid.

yes, now I'm right there, too: 14-14(15)-6(7)-4; with alternate settings that I waivered between in parenthesis...

Side Note:
One thing that I noticed is with properly calibrated Color, it's *much easier* to set Picture. Now, when I push Picture too high, a very obvious color-shift (warm) happens in the brightest White (100%?) in the DVE Pulge & Grayscale pattern. I've come to realize, however, that Picture is really a very subjective setting, with a wide range of "correct" based upon personal preference.

--
corlay

KenTech

07-06-06, 11:58 AM

One thing that I noticed is with properly calibrated Color, it's *much easier* to set Picture. Now, when I push Picture too high, a very obvious color-shift (warm) happens in the brightest White (100%?) in the DVE Pulge & Grayscale pattern. I've come to realize, however, that Picture is really a very subjective setting, with a wide range of "correct" based upon personal preference.I can't speak for your TV, but I'm thinking that that "pinkish" cast in whites when they're very bright might be (partly?) an illusion. It certainly complicates adjusting grayscale by eye, so I am careful to reduce intensity when evaluating grayscale. I suspect that it's an artifact of human vision because I see the same thing in natural scenes outdoors: brilliant clouds against an otherwise blue sky or trees appear a bit "pink" when they have no reason to be so.

The science is that both color and intensity in vision are incredibly adaptive.

corlay

07-06-06, 12:33 PM

I can't speak for your TV, but I'm thinking that that "pinkish" cast in whites when they're very bright might be (partly?) an illusion.
actually, the "warmness" that I see is more yellow-ish than pink-ish. Probably because my set is still @ factory defaults for gamma, and grayscale settings?

and now that I think of it...
grayscale is *independent* of color settings, right? So color calibration should have no affect upon my Picture setting? But that "warmness" I see is definitely new. Hmmmm... <ScratchingHead>

Oh, you know? I might have still been in "Warm" color mode (I've prefered it to "Neutral" up untill re-calibrating last night, now I'm not so sure...) when I re-adjusted Picture. Will "warm" cast color into bright white in an over exposed display? That might explain it...

--
corlay

corlay

07-06-06, 04:17 PM

KenTech

07-07-06, 01:24 PM

grayscale is *independent* of color settings, right? So color calibration should have no affect upon my Picture setting? But that "warmness" I see is definitely new.To clarify . . . The Cutoff and Drive settings (2170P-1/_DRV and _CUT) for the R-G-B guns in the CRT affect everything having to do with color. They are how both the linearity of grayscale and the color of grays are set. The color-balance matrix settings, RYR~GYB, are in play only when there is color in the video. Their action is something like: If there is red in this video, how much red should be displayed onscreen, relative to blue (standard) and green (the other adjustment)? Same for green. The DVE pattern, for example, is a set of color patches on a gray background, all of which have a brightness of 75%. If red is being exaggerated (the infamous "red push"), that square will appear brighter than the background when the red gun only is turned on.

KenTech

07-07-06, 01:29 PM

should the edges between the different color squares in the DVE test patterns be sharply defined? Certain color adjacencies on mine seem to bleed together (like a Mark Rothko painting), with the boundaries a bit darker than the colors in the center of the squares. Is this normal?Yes. Adjacent bright colors are not cleanly delineated in NTSC TV because the process of encoding and decoding color causes some colors to be slightly delayed relative to others, and adjacent blocks can separate slightly (darkening) or overlap (bright line). It would be especially obnoxious in NTSC broadcast, but it's there on component-connected and HDMI DVD, and even the set's internal 480i test patterns. Comes with the territory, but hardly noticable in normal viewing.

In contrast, digital TV standards separate the colors much more cleanly, especially HD.

corlay

07-07-06, 03:08 PM

As learned in this thread, UCOF and UHOF are displaymode-specific and input-specific *offsets* for Color and Hue respectively. But following the logic of Sony's SM, shouldn't there be a *global* control for setting color & hue, and the offesets only invoked as needed for a particular mode and input path? I've searched this thread and see no mention of such a setting?

Post #140 outlines a process,
that includes:

"(5) Set 2170P2/RGBS to 1 (blue) and adjust 2170P-3/UCOF for correct color amount and UHOF for correct hue. WRITE the settings."

But it seems like there should be a global control to adjust color/hue for calibating RGBS=1 (blue)? Just like RYR,RYB,GYR, GYB are global settings.

Seems like offsets should only be invoked if a particular input is a bit off from DVD 480i, like some have reported.

Seems like the relationships of the settings should work like SBRT and UBOF do. No?

--
corlay

[comments below added later...]

whoops.

I found it in post #177.

2170P-4 #4-6/SPIO-SHUO

are the global offsets that I'd assumed existed.

sorry for the false alarm...

--
corlay

KenTech

07-07-06, 08:24 PM

TotallyTubular

07-09-06, 02:18 AM

Quick question. Are Geometry settings not resolution dependent? When I change the settings in 720p they are reflected in 480p and vice versa. This causes one of the modes to have severe geometry problems. It would seem they would be set to their respective res. but that is definitely not the case with my new 970. I've read plenty, but I am new to this; any help would be greatly appreciated.

KenTech

07-09-06, 01:26 PM

Quick question. Are Geometry settings not resolution dependent?It depends on exactly which geometry setting you're looking at. (And you are using the term "resolution" loosely. I understand the question, though.) Some, such as aspect-ratio (2170D-1/ASPT), a vertical-size setting, have individual values for each possible video-display mode. But overall width, for example, has only a global setting plus one additional for "wide-zoom."

Vertical linearity is another. When I have 2170D-1/VLIN and VSCO set perfectly for full 4:3 display on my 36XS955, there is a slight stretch to the center of any 16:9 display, which you can see when movie credits roll. But if I correct that, then the 4:3 display has a slight central "pinch." So a compromise is necessary. Your issues will be somewhat different if you have a 16:9 TV.

The service-data charts make clear, with their multiple or single columns, which parameters are video-mode dependent and which aren't. You should examine those charts for your TV.

corlay

07-09-06, 04:09 PM

KT,

Just wanted to chime in and thank you for all your (sometimes daring) hard work. It's really helped me out a lot. I'd not have the confidence, nor the know-how to 'twiddle' without this forum...

Last night, I tried out your method for tuning the 2103 processor for sharpness, and the new approach to SYSM=3 image processing; and all I can say is: "wow".

One question:
When viewing the Title.13, Ch.2 slide in DVE for tuning sharpness, the shifts in clarity on my set weren't so cut and dried as your article made it seem it would be. Mine's not a superfinepitch, so maybe that's the difference? There were some PPHA positions where the black/white vertical lines just blurred completely into gray (definitely *not* a "sweet spot"); but the one's that looked ok seem to comprise a *range* of 3-4 steps, vs. the obvious good/bad appearence between adjacent steps that your article suggests. I just set it to the middle of a good range, and it seems to be pretty good.

Also, what was troubling about going through this exercise was that the the box in the DVE pattern that includes the finest *horizontal* lines was not static on my display. It has a lot of flicker. Is there a way to make *horizontal* image refinement in the SM as well? This flicker reduces quite a bit when I set the TV to 'progressive' vs. 'interlaced' but it doesn't completely dissapear.

--
corlay
"We all get smart quickly"
(mostly, at KenTech's expense...)

aleavsf

07-10-06, 10:51 AM

RWetmore

07-10-06, 11:08 AM

I have run into a problem with my set running 480i 4:3 material via composite video (video game systems). About a half and inch or more is cut off the bottom of the screen, and adjusting VSIZ or VPOS doesn't correct it. Is there anyway to fix this. What gives?

RWetmore

07-10-06, 11:14 AM

KenTech, thanks for your helpful answers!!! ...but the worst problem I have are the pink patches that can be seen when a full white screen is displayed. Is there any posibility to fix this?

Thanks in advance!

Are the splotches in the corners or somewhere else?

See Ken's post here about adjusting the landing settings:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5687363&&#post5687363

mortaldivine

07-10-06, 01:16 PM

Are the splotches in the corners or somewhere else?

See Ken's post here about adjusting the landing settings:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5687363&&#post5687363

Seems LANDING always fixes the pink patches but does anyone know about light blue patches? I heard someone say those were caused by the grill failing?

RWetmore

07-10-06, 02:33 PM

Seems LANDING always fixes the pink patches but does anyone know about light blue patches? I heard someone say those were caused by the grill failing?

Where are the light blue patches? If they are in the corners, then it's probably a beam landing issue.

mortaldivine

07-10-06, 02:42 PM

Where are the light blue patches? If they are in the corners, then it's probably a beam landing issue.

Right top and bottom corners. There are also some dark areas on the left side of the tv. Basically, the right and left of my screen is developing all sorts of color/darkening issues. I tried the LANDING settings and it was looking worse so I stopped.

Dr. Spankenstein

07-10-06, 06:23 PM

Hi all,

I wanted to ask some of the more proficient adjusters if they could help me track down the source of this problem.
I was trying to access the rear of my set (34-xs955) and while turning this 200 pounder, the stiction of the base gave out and it moved with a slight jerking pop.
When I turned the set back on, the bottom half of the picture was bowing upwards. I had adjusted for this in the past with the VCENT setting, but this time the adjustment had no effect even when running it from one end to the other (0-63). I am assuming that I must have lost a solder connection in that abrubt shift.
My question is, is there a particular board or chip that controls the group of settings that this adjustment is in. If I were to have it serviced, I'd like to be able to point them in the general direction.
Thank you in advance for any advice.

Bryan

KenTech

07-11-06, 12:44 AM

Where are the light blue patches? If they are in the corners, then it's probably a beam landing issue.Another relevant question: Are the patches there regardless of the brightness of the screen? Weird colors in the corners or along the sides that are LANDING problems are not brightness-dependent. But light-bluish patches that appear after a few seconds of bright white are a warping of the aperture grille, temporary in every case I've seen. The worst case is white from top to bottom, which heats up the same grille wires from top to bottom, causing them to expand and go out of alignment. On my set, the color patches go away when the program material goes back to normal brightness. White test patterns are the worst.

Try comparing the problem with a bright screen, and then with maybe a 30% gray from one of the test DVDs. If the color patches go away, it's warping. Nothing you can do.

That LANDING-adjustment procedure just mentioned is still a good one by me.

JoeKing

07-11-06, 12:45 AM

Hi, when I have red push disabled skin tones and yellows appear SLIGHTLY green at times and reds sometimes appear slightly purplish on certain HD material(1 out of 10 movies) while other HD material looks fine. When I have red push enabled and have the color toned down to compensate, flesh tones look slightly better and yellows appear good on all HD material but ofcourse green and blue objects appear lack saturation and the image appears too baige. I changed my color decoder adjustments for non redpush to 10, 10, 8, 5 and feel like all is good with the exception of the Happy Gilmore HD DVD where the colors appear to be a little bit off. IMO, when the color axis is set to Monitor on my set, reds appear to be overly subdued and that is why I get slightly greenish yellows and purplish reds at times instead of red colors being presented equally with blue and green. I would like some opinions on this from other people who view HD with red push disabled.

Since out of all of my HD DVDs(I own 6), this effect is only present on Happy Gilmore, I am hoping that my set's colors are not off and Happy Gilmore was made with incorrect colors. An example of discoloration during Happy Gilmore would be during the scene where the movers are outside and teeing up to play a little bit of golf. I can swear that the black man has a purplish hue to his skin tone and the white man's skin tone appears fine at times but appears slightly green during others. Also, when viewing the chapter that starts off with a red pepsi flag waving, the flag appears slightly neon pinkish red instead of regular red. Can somebody with Happy Gilmore please check the colors and tell me if it is my set or the movie that has the off colors? It would be much appreciated.

Nitewatchman

07-11-06, 01:04 PM

When I turned the set back on, the bottom half of the picture was bowing upwards. I had adjusted for this in the past with the VCENT setting, but this time the adjustment had no effect even when running it from one end to the other (0-63).

You've probably already thought of this, but just in case it helps .... I might wonder if a factory placed "permaalloy assembly" (magnet) fell off the back of the tube, although that wouldn't explain why there is no effect whatsoever when changing VCEN.

Dr. Spankenstein

07-11-06, 03:26 PM

Jeff,

No, I hadn't thought of that, but I have been getting up the nerve to open the case and check one of the magnets in the upper right-hand corner so I will check for one in that bottom area at that time.
Did anyone find out the chip/board that governs the VCEN setting OR what other settings might be rendered inoperable if a faulty solder joint/chip/board has failed?
Thanks for the suggestion,

Bryan

Decharo

07-12-06, 11:26 AM

I cannot get into service mode. Help!
I recently purchased a floor model 960 and I can't get into the service mode.
Do I need a specific Sony remote? My 960 did not come with a remote and I am using one from an older Sony set.
I am following the directions at the beginning of this thread Display-5-volume+-power, and starting with the TV in the off position. I am beginning to believe it has something to do with my remote, is there some other code the remote sends along with the buttons function?
I have tested my remote and it seems to do the functions accordingly. When I hit display the display window comes up, when I hit volume the volume goes up, when I hit 5, well nothing happens which it shouldn't because I am in my input #7 HDMI (I am sure it works because it changes the channel on my other sony set), when I hit power the unit goes off or on.

Any Ideas?

jjmilo

07-12-06, 01:57 PM

Start with the Tv on. Then In Quick succession Press power off, Display, 5, volume +, power on. The Service Menu data should then appear on your screen in monochrome green.

corlay

07-12-06, 02:09 PM

Nitewatchman

07-12-06, 02:41 PM

very consistiently, throughout this discussion, 480p (via component) is labeled as the blackest input. And one is advised to set SBRT value based upon this (with a dvd pulge pattern) with that input's UBOF=0; and then ratchet everything else up, as needed, via UBOF.

The theory being, if 480p(component) is the darkest, everything else offests upwards from that lowest common denomonator.

Don't think there's anything of particular importance involved concerning *which* particular scan rate/input/device gets the lowest UBOF setting, which of course would be the "lightest or "whiteist(lol, I'm sure THAT's not a word)" not the "blackest" input/scan rate/"device"/etc ...

In my case, It does so happen that 480p via Component from *my* particular DVD player requires the lowest UBOF setting to balance black level among all inputs/scan rates(to use the same "brightness" slider setting for all inputs/scan rates), even though 480i via component from the *same* player requires UBOF=1 to "match". I would not assume that would allways be the case for others ...

But, in my case, a UBOF=0, SBRT-calibrated 480i(component) is *much blacker*; with a UBOF=4 setting required in 480p to achieve proper calibration there (via DVD pulge)

This scares me a bit, and makes me wonder if I've got a whacked-out setting somewhere?

I need UBOF=0/1 for 480p/480i via component from my particular DVD player, and everything else needs to be UBOF=4~5, if it were say, 480i via component DVD that needed UBOF=0, and 480p from same player needed UBOF=4 personally, I wouldn't be concerned, but I might be a bit curious concerning why the black levels seem so "different" for different scan rate from the same player ...

Probably curious enough to hook the player up to another set to see if I could detirmine if similar results(quite different black level from 480i+480p output from the same player) occured.

corlay

07-12-06, 02:56 PM

concerning *which* particular scan rate/input/device gets the lowest UBOF setting, which of course would be the "lightest or "whiteist(lol, I'm sure THAT's not a word)" not the "blackest" input/scan rate/"device"/etc ...
yeah, that's what I meant.
<--- what he said...<g>

I need UBOF=0/1 for 480p/480i via component from my particular DVD player, and everything else needs to be UBOF=4~5,
I've always wondered why most participants here offset *all* of their inputs to some degree? Is it that a properly calibrated Brightness, although technically correct, is just too black for television viewing?

if it were say, 480i via component DVD that needed UBOF=0, and 480p from same player needed UBOF=4 personally, I wouldn't be concerned, but I might be a bit curious concerning why the black levels seem so "different" for different scan rate from the same player ...
480p was achieved by sending progressive from the player, as opposed to sending interlaced and letting the Sony convert to progressive. Maybe that's why?

--
corlay

Nitewatchman

07-12-06, 03:15 PM

I've always wondered why most participants here offset *all* of their inputs to some degree? Is it that a properly calibrated Brightness, although technically correct, is just too black for television viewing?

Well, for UBOF, it's just so we can use the *same* brightness slider setting for any input/scan rate/etc and achieve the same black level without either constantly twiddling the brightness slider(especially for those who choose to use "mode memory off, but this would effect even those who use mode memory "on" from for instance, a DVD player hooked up to component input 5 who need different black level settings for 480i vs 480p from the same player), and for having a simple to remember "reference" for the brightness slider for easily knowing what brightness slider value=properly calibarted black level on any input/scan rate.

Keep in mind, as far as the actual "effects" go Changing UBOF by a value of "1" is the *same* as changing "brightness" slider by "2". Same thing for SBRT, which is "global" and not input or scan rate specific like UBOF.

480p was achieved by sending progressive from the player, as opposed to sending interlaced and letting the Sony convert to progressive. Maybe that's why?

That has not been my experience, regardless of which DRC setting(interlaced, Progressive or Cinemotion) is used with 480i. For instance, I get the same results when hooking same the DVD player up to another set concerning black levels from 480i from that player vs 480p from the same player, it's just slightly "blacker" from the 480i output from the player.

corlay

07-12-06, 03:47 PM

and for having a simple to remember "reference" for the brightness slider for easily knowing what brightness slider value=properly calibarted black level on any input/scan rate.
How is everyone calibrating for inputs other than that which is compatible with DVD sources? or are non-DVD sources just "eyeballed"?

Like for RF (standard cable). How does one calibrate that? or VHS sources over composite?

Now, I just match RF to my 480i (component), which is calibrated using DVE test patterns; and hope that i'm close...

--
corlay

Decharo

07-12-06, 04:19 PM

Start with the Tv on. Then In Quick succession Press power off, Display, 5, volume +, power on. The Service Menu data should then appear on your screen in monochrome green.

Thanks,

I will give it a shot tonight.

I have always started with the TV off.

Nitewatchman

07-12-06, 04:20 PM

How is everyone calibrating for inputs other than that which is compatible with DVD sources?

I did hook up DVD player temporarily to S-Video input to calibrate CV/YC (s-video+composite input share same SM settings), and also tried the DVD player hooked up to composite input to see if it was "the same"(it was pretty much) that seems to have worked well for my SVHS deck and Dish Network Sat receiver via S-video inputs, although there is of course no way to absolutely "verify" the latter .....

I don't use cable(use OTA HD/ATSC internal tuner+DVD primarily for TV programming, Sat/Dish SD network receiver to supplement that a bit), but I've found the internal test patterns labeld "ATSC"(there's a series of patterns for 1080i/720p/480p and 480i) in "QM" section to be benifical for the internal ATSC tuner, as well as patterns from MS. I'd think those should work well, and should apply to QAM/Cablecard as well. For instance, Black level for 1080i/720p ATSC broadcast sources(and thus the same UBOF as for 1080i/MS) seems to fairly well match the calibration I did from a Pluge pattern played from jpg file from memory stick.

Update: Note(this pertains *only* to 480p/720p+1080i and working with/looking at "color" when working In SM ) ..... *Do* note that when you are working in SM, (well, this is the case on my set(KD34XBR960 manufactured Jan 05 at least), when 480p, 720p or 1080i signals are input, the proper "color matrix" for ATSC/NTSC(or 480p vs 720p/1080i/etc) sources is not selected "automatically" as occurs if you are operating the set normally outside of service mode. Therefore, when looking at "color" from within the SM, you need to, for example set(or verify) 2171CXA/MTRX=0 for 480p NTSC sources(such as from DVD), and 2171CXA/MTRX=1 for 720p/1080i ATSC sources for proper color decoding to occur, otherwise what you'll see color decoding wise while working in SM will be *inaccurate* for 480p/720p/1080i sources. Note that Only 480p/720p+1080i signals are effected, and that MTRX is a temporary setting which is not saved.
:end update

I have caught color bars up here or there from broadcast NTSC(analog) stations, and although they are really not to be "trusted", I've checked and made some assuptions concerning RF input+various color related settings.

Now, I just match RF to my 480i (component), which is calibrated using DVE test patterns; and hope that i'm close...

Be very careful there, especially when "balancing" white levels with 2170P4 SPIC or black levels with UBOF. In any case, FWIW, It certianly doesn't match 480i via component from My DVD player, but on my set, the needed black level settings for RF input(which is composite NTSC video) and CV/YC do seem to match, or seem very close to matching .....

And you may also want to be sure you are aware of the 2103-1 settings specific to only CV/YC and "RF" inputs (2103-1 SCON/SHUE/SCOL/etc) ....

Much will depend upon the output of your DVD player I'd think, and I'd think merely assuming it matches the RF input, or "is close" is probably assuming too much .... HOWEVER, I'd think it Should be noticable by "eyeballing it" to some degree ... for instance, if black levels are noticably generally "too dark" or "too bright" from your RF/Cable sources, although keep in mind black levels from such sources can vary all over the place ...

In addition to service code chart listing for your set(which can be found attached to a post "somewhere" in this thread) BTW, You may find the charts attached to Ken's Post #892 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7046048&&#post7046048) useful in your efforts ... They are easier to look at and "interpet" than the "full chart", that's for certian!

corlay

07-12-06, 05:29 PM

the internal test patterns
do these exist on a 30HS420?

*Do* note that when you are working in SM, when 480p, 720p or 1080i signals are input, the proper "color matrix" for ATSC/NTSC(or 480p vs 720p/1080i/etc) sources is not selected "automatically" as occurs if you are operating the set normally outside of service mode.
Can someone verify that this also applies to 30HS420?
How to know?

I have caught color bars up here or there from broadcast NTSC(analog) stations, and although they are really not to be "trusted", I've checked and made some assuptions concerning RF input+various color related settings.
One of my local channels puts up those standrad NTSC color bars after ~1:00am. Maybe I'll play around with color calibration for RF that way. I looked at it once, and color-gated for blue, red, green separately and it wasn't even close... :-(

--
corlay

Nitewatchman

07-12-06, 08:12 PM

do these exist on a 30HS420?

Look for a ("blue color) "QM" section in Service menu, it's undocumented in SM, and near the "end" of the different SM "sections" on my set.

The patterns on my set are in QM #1 - PATN #1~80, there are also several patterns in QM #2 (GATN?) #1~7(or so), the latter which use whatever mode of the current signal source. QM #0-INFO #0-7 has some diagnostic info screens which may be of interest to some. in PATN, There are 20 identical patterns for each scan rate (in this order - ATSC 1080i-480i-480p-720p). They aren't very sophisticated, but there are good color bars. Also note --- As discussed earlier on a few occasions, If you WRITE another setting elsewhere in SM when you have one of those patterns up, (this is an oddity I know), you will probably need to make sure your return QM/PATN value to ZERO(and WRITE the "0" value(no test pattern) before you exit SM, otherwise the test pattern you were working on will likely remain "stuck" on screen when you exit SM.

How to know?

Check Color bars/color test pattern outside of SM, then go into SM, and compare - While I wouldn't use the DVE plastic filters and would use RGBS instead for actual calibration work, since you can't use RGBS outside of SM, the DVE plastic filters should be good enough for this comparision(actually, you should probably be able to see the difference in say, Cyan with just your eyes when switching between MTRX=0 and MTRX=1 within SM) :

If it's relevant to your set, For example, if You are in SM and you're looking at 480p from DVD and NTSC color bars and MTRX=0 and the color decoding is the SAME as it was outside of SM(where again the proper color matrix or "color space" is chosen automatically by the set), the color bars would be exactly the same. However, when working in SM and if it's relevant and if MTRX=1, then it Won't be the same ..... Generally, if you were using a 720p/1080i source immediately BEFORE you entered SM, MTRX will probably show "1", and if you were using 480p/NTSC source before you entered SM it will probably show "0". But, it doesn't *allways* happen this way(at least on my set), and can be either, which is one reason why it's sometimes necessary for me to change the MTRX setting when I was working in SM with color settings for 480p NTSC from DVD vs. 720p/1080i from internal tuner, QM test patterns or 1080i from Memory stick ...

Searching this thread for such items as "MTRX" should produce more detailed info ......

KenTech

07-12-06, 10:32 PM

Thanks,

I will give it a shot tonight.

I have always started with the TV off.There is no problem starting with the TV off. It just has to be off when you push the Display-5-Vol+ combo. When I want to make some planned adjustments, I start with the TV off.

KenTech

07-12-06, 10:34 PM

in PATN, There are 20 identical patterns for each scan rate (in this order - ATSC 1080i/720p/480p/480i).On my 36XS955, they are in the order: 1080i - 480i - 480p - 720p.

raouliii

07-13-06, 09:28 AM

do these exist on a 30HS420?

I believe the internal test patterns are hosted on the QM board, which is part of the ATSC/QAM tuner module. My HS510 does not have this tuner or test patterns and I don't believe the HS420 has them either.

Decharo

07-13-06, 11:32 AM

I'm in!

Now I need to sort though this post to find out what I need to do to my 960. I find myself getting kind of dizzy when I watch this TV. I don't know if it is a focus issue or convergence or something else I am clueless about. I believe I need test patterns, I am goig to purchase DVE. I have read somewhere in this thread that within the SM there is test patterns, I can't find it again. Anybody?

I am having a hard time searching this post, I don't know if it is because of the size of it or my layman search terms.

Nitewatchman

07-13-06, 11:56 AM

On my 36XS955, they are in the order: 1080i - 480i - 480p - 720p.

Yes, Oops! Sorry about that. That was a mistake, probably didn't help that I was doing about 5 other things while composing that post - I'll edit/fix that, it's the same here, Ken on XBR960.

Update: Which reminds me -- Never thought to mention it, and not sure if it's been mentioned earlier or not, but of course the SM info at top of screen(including info on signal source- 1080i/480i/etc.) isn't displayed when you are "in" QM menu, but appears if you put a QM pattern up and move elsewhere in SM. :end update
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, Wasn't clear which set models have ATSC/QAM receiver built in, and which don't ... What Raoulii said certianly makes sense ....

And, if it's the case Corlay may not have a 720p/1080i HD source he's working with, I'm thinking he's probably not going to have an issue with "MTRX" either(assuming the HS420 also uses 21x1CXA/"YUV switch" processor), as, hard to say, but I'd guess it might be likely it would end up being MTRX="0" at all times when SM is entered if 480p sources are being used and 720p/1080i isn't.

So, in other words - Sorry corlay! The info on QM, and MTRX was probably more than you needed or wanted to know ...

corlay

07-13-06, 03:06 PM

So, in other words - Sorry corlay! The info on QM, and MTRX was probably more than you needed or wanted to know ...

well...

it would have been nice to have a means for proper calibration of all inputs, individually.

thanks anyway....

--
corlay

KenTech

07-15-06, 03:40 PM

OPINIONS SOLICITED. Attention color-tweaking fanatics: What, in your opinion, does 2170P-1/DCOL appear to do? (It follows the color-offset parameters for Warm and Cool, RDOF~BCOF.)

An earlier service manual identifies it as "dynamic color - Cool." So I ran a few experiments. My "Normal" color temp setting is currently very linear: a b/w image is amazingly neutral, bright to shadow. So I set the Cool offsets to 31-31-31--31-31-31 (no effect) and set the CT to Cool. As I varied DCOL from 0 thru 3 on a b/w picture (Color=Min), the picture got uniformly cooler, perfectly balanced from bright to shadow. 1 is only a very mild change, 2 and 3 more noticeable. So, one might suppose that a good conservative "Cool" setup would be to set DCOL to 1-3, and leave the offsets at 31. So I set it to 1 and watched TV last evening. Seems equivalent to a usual conservative Cool offset of, say, 30-31-32 -- 30-31-32 and DCOL=0, at least at first try. Nothing weird; very discreet.

(I confirmed: It does seem to affect only the Cool CT setting. Warm and Normal are not affected.)

So the burning question is: What is dynamic about this DCOL setting? Are only bright tones affected when skin tones are present? Does it cleverly apply a coolish tone to only some parts of the image when colors are present? In b/w images, it seems to me to cool things off very even-handedly, from shadows to white. So . . . Dynamic? How?

Other sets of eyes would be appreciated on this.

Nitewatchman

07-15-06, 11:59 PM

My "Normal" color temp setting is currently very linear: a b/w image is amazingly neutral, bright to shadow. So I set the Cool offsets to 31-31-31--31-31-31 (no effect) and set the CT to Cool. As I varied DCOL from 0 thru 3 on a b/w picture (Color=Min), the picture got uniformly cooler, perfectly balanced from bright to shadow.

Tried this also. Saw the same thing as you. Including but not limited to - using jpeg greyscale image included in attached zip file "16stepgreyscale1920x1080jpg.zip" --

BTW, wow! Never would have thought a 1920x1080 greyscale jpeg image would compress into a zip file only 1.4KB in size!

However ....

So I set it to 1 and watched TV last evening. Seems equivalent to a usual conservative Cool offset of, say, 30-31-32 -- 30-31-32 and DCOL=0, at least at first try. Nothing weird; very discreet.

Experiment #1:

I tried something a little different ... Cool Offset/RDOF~BCOF= 32-31-30-32-31-30, DCOL=1 -- Well, This doesn't "match" my neutral RDRV~BCUT settings, but, the differences are pretty slight. In my case, at first I thought it might be just a wee, tad bit warmer than "neutral"(It's labeled "neutral" not Normal on XBR960 go figure) throughout brightness range ...

But, looking at it a little more(just greyscale with color off, various patterns such as the 16step jpg image via MS attached to this post) --- Perhaps with these settings It Adds a slight bit of +Red "pinkishness(or "magnetaishness)", at least in midnotes+lower brightness levels vs. my netural setting ..

It's really hard to say, and very difficult to trust my eyes on this one, but I'd swear it almost seems like with the above settings for cool offset in this case CT *may* be cooler CT in brighter areas, while at the same time it seems with these settings for "cool" I am definitely getting a very, wee tad bit of +red "pinkishness"(or magnetaishness") in mid-tones and low brightness levels -- that does not seem(doesn't mean it isn't though, as what is going on here is very slight, and would be difficult to say it's Not there in brighter areas as well) to be there in brighter areas .....

So -- Ok, I thought -- Well, who knows what is causing that, so thought I might try :

Experiment #2:

Cool Offset : RDOF~BCOF=31-31-31-31-31-31 / DCOL=1.

Warm Offset : RDOF~BCOF 30-31-32-30-31-32 (WBSW=0 - Note - As you detirmined Looks like DCOL only effects the cool off set, and also without looking at it too closely it looks like the BIG WBSW=1 "warm" switch only effects warm offset)

Knowing that I'd confirmed identical results on previous occasions via setting the Warm/cool offsets to the exact same values for RDOF~BCOF, I might then expect to acheive the same, or very similar results with A/B comparisions between these settings for cool/warm offset, no?

Well, at first that seemed to be the case --- looking at only Greyscale patterns with color "off" --- If there were any differences between a/b comparisions of these cool/Warm offsets, my eye couldn't detect a difference(although I can't definitively say there wasn't one -- If there *was* a difference, I can say it was *very*, very slight) .....

So - turned Color slider to my normal settings "as calibrated"(color slider=31), and, being lazy as only needed two button presses to get there, went to the EPG via my Dish network receiver to look at the "shade of red" that shows for the channels I'm not subscribed to(if it's not the "right" shade of red, it annoys me for some reason, LOL) .... Since a pic is worth 1,000 words, I've attached a screenshot of what that looks like to this message, filename "dishepg.jpg".

Well ... You know what? The shade of red for the "unsubscribed" channels and "cool vs. Warm" offsets as described above DID not match, nor were they as close as would be the case with slight differences in Offsets .... I even tried different settings for DCOL, and although the CT became "cooler" with DCOL=2 or 3, the shade of Red never did reach the same "coolness of red"(so to speak) that was there with the "warm" offset ("cooler" than netural) ...

What, in your opinion, does 2170P-1/DCOL appear to do? <snip> So the burning question is: What is dynamic about this DCOL setting? Are only bright tones affected when skin tones are present? Does it cleverly apply a coolish tone to only some parts of the image when colors are present? In b/w images, it seems to me to cool things off very even-handedly, from shadows to white. So . . . Dynamic? How?

I don't know Ken -- Appears to me there may be(emphacize may) *something* interesting going on with it, but #1). I haven't seen enough yet to be able to form an opinion concerning what is going on, and #2). from what I've seen so far - at this point at least -- whatever it is, I don't think I like it(who knows though I could end up being wrong about that, LOL) ...

KenTech

07-16-06, 03:16 PM

I tried something a little different ... Cool Offset/RDOF~BCOF= 32-31-30-32-31-30, DCOL=1 -- Well, This doesn't "match" my neutral RDRV~BCUT settings, but, the differences are pretty slight. In my case, at first I thought it might be just a wee, tad bit warmer than "neutral"(It's labeled "neutral" not Normal on XBR960 go figure) throughout brightness range ...

But, looking at it a little more(just greyscale with color off, various patterns such as the 16step jpg image via MS attached to this post) --- Perhaps with these settings It Adds a slight bit of +Red "pinkishness(or "magnetaishness)", at least in midnotes+lower brightness levels vs. my netural setting ..I assume you intended that this "Cool" offset-setup be warm, not cool. 32-31-30--32-31-30 is a warm, not cool, bias. So it should be a tad warmer, indeed.

But it brings up a potential experiment: Set CT to Cool, then add, say, +2 of DCOL, and try to cancel it with warmish "Cool" offsets. When you can't see a difference when switching from Neutral, you can note the offset-settings that canceled it. Then install their opposite coolish equivalents temporarily for the Warm offsets for testing. The question then becomes: Are the Warm and Cool settings, thus configured, identical? Or is ther something else going on with the DCOL=2-only Cool setting.

I have tried to second-guess the Sony intent: What was the person/committee thinking when they "invented" DCOL? "Let's cool thing off a little more for bright scenes than for dark scenes." "Let's try to avoid cooling off flesh tones." That would be the dynamic aspect of it -- they're trying to do something to the overall color that is somehow intelligently scene-dependent. After all, Sony have already made available all kinds of "dynamic picture" features as far as black level and contrast are concerned -- and that we rigorously turn off. It's a long-standing and, IMHO, paternalistic tradition in TV manufacturing to do something "automatic" to the picture to make it "better," starting with skin-tone correction in the 60s and 70s. Only in recent decades does it seem that most TVs offer a way of completely cancelling such effects.

I won't belabor the point -- but one tremendous value of the easy access to Sony's service mode that the set can be turned into a marvelous, UN-automatic display device with a few, simple changes.

KenTech

07-16-06, 03:27 PM

Including but not limited to - using jpeg greyscale image included in attached zip file "16stepgreyscale1920x1080jpg.zip" --

BTW, wow! Never would have thought a 1920x1080 greyscale jpeg image would compress into a zip file only 1.4KB in size!Thanks for posting this valuable pattern. It can, of course, be rescaled and copy/pasted in several places in a new pattern so that variations in color over the screen doesn't fool your eyes.

On compression: Common compression schemes, e.g. zip, jpeg, png, sit, all rely on the elimination of redundancy in the data for making file-sizes smaller. A whole line of 10% gray can be encoded as [1 gray pixel, repeat 1920 times], instead of 10% gray - 10% gray - 10% gray, etc, for 1920 individual pixels. A test pattern likely has lots of perfectly even tonalities over significant areas, and that makes it easy for very significant compression. Add more detail, however, and especially randomness, and the file size goes way up. My fine-focus test images, with their widely distributed tiny patterns, don't compress well at all!

KenTech

07-16-06, 03:37 PM

The shade of red for the "unsubscribed" channels and "cool vs. Warm" offsets as described above DID not match, nor were they as close as would be the case with slight differences in Offsets .... I even tried different settings for DCOL, and although the CT became "cooler" with DCOL=2 or 3, the shade of Red never did reach the same "coolness of red"(so to speak) that was there with the "warm" offset ("cooler" than netural).Interesting. Well, maybe the "dynamic" DCOL algorithm is this: Apply a cool offset in inverse proportion to the amount of color (saturation). Thus, colors would be less affected than, say, pale or white objects, grays, etc.

But this would be awful, no? It would mean that a step-saturation scale of, say, reds, varying from 100% red at one end thru pinks to equivalent-brightness gray at the the other would also vary in hue! The less-saturated reds would drift a bit toward magenta as you moved away from pure red. That's a nonlinearity in color that seems unacceptable -- or does it fool the eye in some clever way? Hard to imagine . . .

Nitewatchman

07-16-06, 08:03 PM

32-31-30--32-31-30 is a warm, not cool, bias. So it should be a tad warmer, indeed.

Yes, with DCOL=0, and apparently(more or less it seemed, with perhaps an exception in the brighter tones - again don't trust my eyes enough for this) DCOL=1 as well.

I assume you intended that this "Cool" offset-setup be warm, not cool.

What I was trying to see, is if DCOL=1 would more or less "offset" 32-31-30-32-31-30 .... or in other words, "equal" a "non-offset"(so to speak) of 31-31-31-31-31-31 and DCOL=0 since you had said/discovered in previous post(and looking at greyscale only, portions of my experiment #2 seemed to indicate the same thing) :

So I set it to 1 and watched TV last evening. Seems equivalent to a usual conservative Cool offset of, say, 30-31-32 -- 30-31-32 and DCOL=0, at least at first try. Nothing weird; very discreet.

So, that's -1 offset from RDRV/RCUT, +1 from BDRV/BCUT, which might lead one to assume one effect of DCOL=1 might be to produce the same results as RDRV-1, BCUT +1, and all I was doing, in a sense was to "check" to see if such an assumption was true ... It wasn't ...

In other words, If an offset of 30-31-32-30-31-32 seems equivilent to DCOL=1 using 31-31-31-31-31-31, then I thought I'd check to see if an offset of +1 from RDRV/RCUT, -1 BDRV/BCUT(32-31-30-32-31-30) with DCOL=1 would be equivilent to 31-31-31-31-31-31/DCOL=0, which it wasn't.

But it brings up a potential experiment: Set CT to Cool, then add, say, +2 of DCOL, and try to cancel it with warmish "Cool" offsets. When you can't see a difference when switching from Neutral, you can note the offset-settings that canceled it. Then install their opposite coolish equivalents temporarily for the Warm offsets for testing. The question then becomes: Are the Warm and Cool settings, thus configured, identical? Or is ther something else going on with the DCOL=2-only Cool setting.

Yes, I thought of trying that as well last night, just as I was hitting the hay, so to speak ...

One tremendous value of the easy access to Sony's service mode that the set can be turned into a marvelous, UN-automatic display device with a few, simple changes.

Thank goodness! Additionally useful as well for those of us who have customized our pic modes ...

Interesting. Well, maybe the "dynamic" DCOL algorithm is this: Apply a cool offset in inverse proportion to the amount of color (saturation). Thus, colors would be less affected than, say, pale or white objects, grays, etc.

That did very much look like what was happening, but again, I only looked at it with the Dish EPG screen, and didn't spend much time on it ... As I increased DCOL, the cooler CT that resulted was obvious in the whites/grays present, seemingly without the colors being as effected .....

But this would be awful, no?

Yes, it would ... Don't know what's really going on with it at this point, though suppose it might take a little more work and experiments to come up with some sort of theory.

I suppose one might also want to consider the factory defaults for cool offset - RDOF~BCOF 31-31-34-31-31-34 and DCOL=1 --- perhaps also along with the Netural factory defaults for RDRV~BCUT ... Which, on my set at least(and apparently others whom have reported here) result in a quite cool CT for Neutral and cool offset ....

It seems to me the "warm offset"(my sets values match service code listing for the offsets, but not RDRV~BCUT) was probably setup such that factory adjustment of RDRV~BCUT would result in something "close" to 6500K CT (although unfortunetly it did not produce linear greyscale results on my particular set). And perhaps, one might assume, perhaps the RDRV~BCUT factory adjustment for "neutral" was also "supposed" to be for some particular CT, as well as some sort of "look" to result, and correspondingly, some sort of particular "look" for the "cool offset" ....

In which case, Just a thought(one which I doubt anyone will want to explore to much of an extent other than perhaps for short periods of experimentation!) perhaps one who is interested in sorting out what they may have been "going for" with the cool offset and use of DCOL=1 may have a better shot at it if they experiment with returning 1). RDRV~BCUT to the factory adjusted values, and the cool offset values to their defaults as well .... Then, perhaps one might also want to consider the Factory settings for the color decoder as well (RYR~GYB) .... Assuming(and this would probably be assuming a lot) of course the techs at the factory doing the adjustments on the set achieved the results Sony wanted ....

To be honest Ken, I only took a look at this a little as you asked for others thoughts and I had some extra time last night. At this point, from what I've seen so far can't think of why I might want to use anything for DCOL other than 0(and, my current cool offset of 29-31-32-29-31-32 seems to be working quite nicely for a cooler CT choice), so I'm afraid at this point I'm not very motivated to experiment further ... As allways, I Would be happy to double-check anything you discover on this, however ....

KenTech

07-17-06, 02:01 AM

Well, maybe the "dynamic" DCOL algorithm is this: Apply a cool offset in inverse proportion to the amount of color (saturation). Thus, colors would be less affected than, say, pale or white objects, grays, etc.Yes, something like this seems to be happening, indeed. Inspired by Jeff's comments on the changes he saw in the red tones of a graphic, I set up my own similar experiment.

I think I now see what DCOL does. (Remember the infamous skin-tone correction on old TVs?) I set up Cool with all offsets at 31, but with DCOL at 2, a noticable cooling effect. I found I could almost exactly duplicate the effect for b/w images by setting Warm (temporarily) to 29-31-33--29-31-33. So, if I switched between Warm and Cool with a remote-click, and then back, I saw only the tiniest change in color -- less than one click of any of the color parameters.

So I turned Color back up to normal, and watched some regular TV, paying attention to what Warm/Cool switching did to red, green, and blue tones in the video. (Remember Cool = DCOL at 2.) Results:

(1) Switching from Warm to Cool intensified red slightly. People's faces, moreover, became slightly more colored (saturation increase -- one would expect the opposite). Switching from Neutral to Cool had essentially no effect on red and face tones. Switching Neutral to Warm desaturated them slightly. (Remember I've changed Warm temporarily to an orthodox cool setup.)

(2) Switching from Warm to Cool desaturated intense blue slightly. One would expect it to increase! So DCOL cools off all grays, but it emphasizes skin and similar tones at the expense of their opposites.

(3) I found few good examples to test, but greens were least affected, very slightly desaturated when switching to Cool, again paradoxical.

So I think I get it, now. DCOL has two simultaneous effects that somebody on the Sony design team thought were beneficial together: A nice, even cooling of color temp is added to low-saturated tones, especially grays and white; and a skin-tone correction is added, making the effect of this cooling on normal warm colors nearly zero. Looks to me like "cooler, with added old-style skin-tone bias."

I'm having none of it! End of experiment. "Skin-tone correction" is the enemy of accurate color, having helped sell color television in an era when NTSC stood for "Never Twice the Same Color" and white points were set very cool. Like the optional "automatic" black-level correction available thru the BLK parameter and its dependent parameters -- part of Sony's "Dynamic Picture" feature," it is never required for high-quality viewing. (It bloody well doesn't occur in Nature, now does it!) Leave DCOL at 0.

Nitewatchman

07-17-06, 11:02 PM

Has anyone figured out if there is a way to decrease the amount of screen real estate taken up by the "side bars" when viewing 4x3 programming in "normal" screen mode on 16x9 DA-4 chassis sets(such as XBR960)?

I've been searching, but can't seem to find anything which will do what I want. I don't want to alter Horizontal size of the image in the 4x3 "area" which is displayed, I want to "get rid" of a portion of the "inside portion" of the side bars, which is in effect, "hiding" more than I want on the sides .... In other words, to effectively "unhide" a portion of the image which is being hidden by the "side bars".

Attached is an image of some screenshots which should, hopefully demonstrate why I'd like to find a way to do this. AT top of each image is a pattern displayed in the set's "full mode" (image fills the screen) at bottom is the pattern displayed while using the "normal" screen mode. Note: Well, yes the pattern in pics at bottom/left is different -- one is 4x3 NTSC video, the other is 16x9 NTSC video but should be the same as far as what is "hidden" on the sides.

As you can see, the "side bars" (Yeah, they might look weird to some as I have them set to be grey via MID1/BCOL=6 rather than the factory default of black and MID1/BCOL=0 - They're not as bright grey in the right pic due to the auto-exposure settings on the digital camera) when using "normal" screen mode are effectively causing a "synthetic" extra amount of overscan, whearas I'd like the "synthetic" overscan to "match" the ~4.5% overscan that is the case with "full" mode and a 16x9 image. And yes, I know I don't have the image centered "perfectly", vertically, I won't go into the reasons why I'm doing that at the current time other than to say, that basically I'm still trying to decide something.

Thanks for any input on this!

GlenC

07-17-06, 11:51 PM

Jeff, have you tried LBLK/RBLK in 2170D-3? Sounds like a blanking issue if it is adjustable. There appears to be a "1080" and "Other" setting. Many TVs have fixed 4:3 overscan.

Nitewatchman

07-18-06, 12:52 PM

Jeff, have you tried LBLK/RBLK in 2170D-3? Sounds like a blanking issue if it is adjustable. There appears to be a "1080" and "Other" setting. Many TVs have fixed 4:3 overscan.

Glen,

Yes -- LBLK/RBLK are the shutters(to keep the beam from striking edge of tube) which only effect the outer edge of the raster, including when "normal" screen mode is used. The 1080i setting is relevant on my set for 1080i "full" mode(maybe V Expand or H expand too or HD zoom, don't recall), "others" is relevant to "everything else", including "normal" screen mode, but again, only at the edge of the raster("behind" the bezel" so to speak unless you've reduced HSIZ to see the effect).

Only went through this quickly(and didn't write down which one it was) but There does appear to be a MID2 setting which allows adjustment of Horizontal size(and therefore 4x3 "overscan" so to speak for DRC processed signals - assume there is one that would work for 480p 4x3 as well in MID1) of only the "4x3" area without effecting the sidebars, however that would require reduced overscan on top and bottom, probably via adjustment of a MID2 Vertical size adjustment as well to maintain proper aspect ratio. And, I believe an adjustment of for example, MID2 DVRS would probably undesireably decrease vertical resolution l per info described in Post 1731 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7909446&&#post7909446).

OTOH, other Vertical/Horizontal size controls I've come across effect the entire 16x9 "area", including the side bars when the 4x3 "normal" screen mode is used. In other words, it doesn't change what is "hidden" of the 4x3 frame behind those "side bars".

I guess what is annoying about this is occasionally bits of graphics/bugs get "cut off" from 4x3 SD/broadcast sources, and it's not an issue I've experienced with my other sets(such as Toshiba 34HF84/RCA F38310). Of course, the only "signals" of interest here are 480i or NTSC signals processed via DRC, or 480p 4x3 signals, and 1/2 of a percent extra overscan isn't really that big of a deal, I suppose ...

Many TVs have fixed 4:3 overscan

I suppose what is nice about it is the width/size of the "side bars" NEVER change when a 480i or 480p 4x3 signal is viewed via the Normal screen mode, no matter the input or source used. Therefore, if uneven phosphor wear ever does become an issue in those "side bar" areas if the set is used for a lot of 4x3 viewing via "normal" mode, I suppose during several overnight periods one could send video black to the 4x3 area, and increase MID1/BCOL to say, "15"(results in white "side bar" area, BCOL=0 is black(default) during overnight periods to I would speculate, "even out" the uneven phosphor wear over several evenings(or several weeks/etc of overnight periods).

However, from what I've seen that's not really true for 4x3 video upconverted and sent by ATSC stations within 720p/1080i(16x9 of course) format(as you'd view it in "full" mode), as the "side bars" in this case are not the same width as what occurs with "normal" mode(these are usually sent with essentially NO overscan on the sides for instance.)

Den42

07-19-06, 06:33 AM

I've been working on getting my 4:3 32HS420 overscan/positioning corrected. Lots of great info in this thread!

With a 480 source, AVIA overscan image on the screen, I can use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 to set the canvas and use MID3 to set the image. I have it set for 2-3% overscan all the way around and it looks good.

For 1080i mode I'm using an Xbox 360 (set to 1080i of course ;) ) with an USB stick. Image viewer displaying a scaling image that's 1920x1080

With a 1080i source my set kicks in the "enhanced 16:9" and letterboxes the output. If I use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 in this mode it raises and lowers the letterboxed "canvas" and the sizes can be changed. But MID3 has no effect. So I can resize the "canvas", but I can't adjust the overscan.

By looking at the values in the SM's in 1080i mode I can see they are different from the 480 mode values. It's just that values in MID3 do nothing if change them.

I tested around a bit and nothing seemed to do the trick. Am I missing something? Does it not allow MID3 changes because it's a 4:3 set in an enhanced mode? Anybody tackle this yet?

I noticed my model doesn't have the QM menu either which woulde be nice :(

EDIT: V6 used as input
Den

KenTech

07-19-06, 03:24 PM

With a 480 source, AVIA overscan image on the screen, I can use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 to set the canvas and use MID3 to set the image. I have it set for 2-3% overscan all the way around and it looks good. <snip> With a 1080i source my set kicks in the "enhanced 16:9" and letterboxes the output. If I use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 in this mode it raises and lowers the letterboxed "canvas" and the sizes can be changed. But MID3 has no effect. So I can resize the "canvas", but I can't adjust the overscan.

By looking at the values in the SM's in 1080i mode I can see they are different from the 480 mode values. It's just that values in MID3 do nothing if change them.You should mention the exact video mode for 480. 480p and 480i are handled very differently inside the TV.

Please read the cautions expressed here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7909446&&#post7909446). In particular, you must not use the settings in the MID groups for adjusting height, or you will run afoul of the precise scaling ratios that are specified for exactly matching the digital sampling of the video to the number of scan lines. I.e. leave VDVS set to their default values from the data charts (numbers like 135, 180, 60, 120). Vertical-size adjustments must be accomplished in the 2170D groups.

Note that for 1080i and other 16:9 display, the video material is technically not letterboxed; that is, no black bars are added to the video (using up scan lines). Rather, the entire vertical scan is compressed to the correct aspect ratio for 16:9, and all scan llines are really there, just as they would be on a widescreen TV. You can prove the point by cranking up the Brightness slider and noting that those "bars" above and below never glow because there's no scanning there. The height of this compressed raster is set in 2170D-1/ASPT, if the uncompressed 4:3 raster is already adjusted correctly for round circles, etc.

You can use the blanking shutters in 2170D-3, TBLK and BBLK to crop the 16:9 compressed raster as you wish. There are separate settings for 480 and 1080, and for compressed and full scan, so you should be able to customize it as you wish. The main reason for these "shutters" is to keep the electron beam from striking the side of the CRT, but in compressed mode the top and bottom shutters can act as a cropping tool. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this shutter thing -- it's been a year since I did this to my TV. I recall minimizing my overscan for compressed rasters.)

Den42

07-19-06, 07:12 PM

You should mention the exact video mode for 480. 480p and 480i are handled very differently inside the TV.

480p with the chart from AVIA
1080i with the image from the Xbox360

Please read the cautions expressed In particular, you must not use the settings in the MID groups for adjusting height, or you will run afoul of the precise scaling ratios that are specified for exactly matching the digital sampling of the video to the number of scan lines. I.e. leave VDVS set to their default values from the data charts (numbers like 135, 180, 60, 120). Vertical-size adjustments must be accomplished in the 2170D groups.

VDVS in 1080i mode is set to the default of 135. Took a bit to realize that you were listing the values for each mode

Note that for 1080i and other 16:9 display, the video material is technically not letterboxed; that is, no black bars are added to the video (using up scan lines). Rather, the entire vertical scan is compressed to the correct aspect ratio for 16:9, and all scan llines are really there, just as they would be on a widescreen TV. You can prove the point by cranking up the Brightness slider and noting that those "bars" above and below never glow because there's no scanning there. The height of this compressed raster is set in 2170D-1/ASPT, if the uncompressed 4:3 raster is already adjusted correctly for round circles, etc.

Wasn't sure of the technical name for it, I was going to say 'compressed output' instead of letterbox. I do understand it's not fully scanning the screen though. That's why I was having a hard time trying to figure out how to correct it.

You can use the blanking shutters in 2170D-3, TBLK and BBLK to crop the 16:9 compressed raster as you wish. There are separate settings for 480 and 1080, and for compressed and full scan, so you should be able to customize it as you wish. The main reason for these "shutters" is to keep the electron beam from striking the side of the CRT, but in compressed mode the top and bottom shutters can act as a cropping tool. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this shutter thing -- it's been a year since I did this to my TV. I recall minimizing my overscan for compressed rasters.)

That works! I re-adjusted and then set the shutters. Only thing is I have to watch on the top because the scan lines start to seperate on the top. I can only adjust so much and then there is distortion and then the seperation of the scan lines. I've got about 3% top and bottom and 2.5% on the sides. I have what looks like a UCP (UP COR PIN COR) problem up i'll have to look into.

I have some other stuff to fix. Here is a shot of the screen currently
EDIT:Not allowed to post URLs yet

Thank you for your help
Den

corlay

07-20-06, 12:19 PM

corlay

07-20-06, 12:26 PM

(Yeah, they might look weird to some as I have them set to be grey via MID1/BCOL=6 rather than the factory default of black and MID1/BCOL=0

Hey, Jeff?

I tried setting BCOL to a grayscale value to approximate the body color of my HS420,
to see if I liked that any better than Black; but I couldn't get the new value to save?

When I return to SM, it's reverted back to 0.

weird...

This setting is not marked with an asterix;
indicating temporary, and non-saveable in my models SM chart.
I wonder if it should be?...

--
corlay

Nitewatchman

07-20-06, 02:01 PM

I've verified that my HS420 does not have internal test patterns in the SM.

*Do* Keep in mind that for those sets that have them, those internal patterns are only 100% relevant to 1080i/480i/480p/720p signals coming from *ONLY* the internal ATSC/QAM tuners(and probably relevant(as it *mostly* seems anyway) from internal memory stick reader as well.

For instance --- While yes, it's true that ATSC/QAM tuners use the "RF" input so to speak --- HOWEVER --- there's no way to calibrate for NTSC SD analog signals from those patterns. And in this case, for "RF input" You have to calibrate for each source signal's input source's (scan rate - 480i/480p/720p/1080i ATSC, and for NTSC SD) Seperately.

I can hook up the dvd player to run through RF (my cable tv input, via composite to the VCR player, and RF from VCR to TV...) and composite (my VCR input, direct from DVD player) and calibrate that way; but is that worthwhile?
This is reliant upon my dvd player to be consistient with the cable tv and vcr source signals regularly sent through those paths. Will it get me close?

I'd say it would probably be worthwhile, and *may* get you close(especially for your composite input sources), or perhaps closer concerning "RF input" if the RF input is already not fairly well calibrated "at the factory"(it really *should* have been, but you know how that goes ....).

But yes, that's reliant on your DVD player, which is one reason why I also hooked up my DVD player to other sets to see if I came up with the same "results". Luckily, concerning black/white levels -- via S-video or composite out from DVD, it does seem to fairly closely match other devices, including when I've tried it with other sets. Color wise it seems to be "spot on". I tried this experiment with another DVD player I own, however, and the results were not as good concerning black/white levels, but color was also "spot on" with it. Inany case, Hooking up my DVD player to s-video +calibarting with various test patterns from AVIA or DVE *seemed* to get me awfully close for the output from my Dish Network receiver and S-VHS deck hooked up via S-video.

If you do run into a problem, for instance with the black/white levels from your DVD player via composite out not "matching" your other devices, you'd then probably need to make adjustments by eye.

It would be difficult to impossible to explain exactly *how* I made some slight adjustments for "RF" input for color which *seemed* to have worked well ... In short, it involved some color bars being broadcast by NTSC station(received analog OTA) late at night(which were definitely "wrong" as being sent), and some "comparisions"(and assumptions) between the results from the internal NTSC tuner(via RF) *And* the NTSC tuner in the S-VHS deck via S-video(CV/YC) .... There was a *little* more to this -- but In short while not being completely accurate, *assuming* that the color balance as calibrated for CV/YC via s-video from DVD player was *close* for accurate color from the S-VHS deck's NTSC tuner, I then adjusted RF input's 2103-1 color settings(while using RGBS) so that the NTSC color bars from "RF" input *matched* the results from NTSC color bars from the S-VHS deck's tuner ... It was sort of difficult working this way, since it was obvious the color bars were "wrong" as being sent by the station -- so, instead of how you would "normally" adjust for color balance while looking at color bars and using RGBS, I was instead having to match the results via RF to be the same "color balance mismatch" as was occuring via S-video ....

I *still* consider those color settings I've done for "RF" input highly "experimental" and "subject to revision"(and I plan to revisit them, hopefully if I can catch more accurate color bars being sent by a local station). However, it does seem to produce very good results from what I can tell .... For instance .. I know via info from the station engineer that one station in my area(a state wide PBS "affiliate" network with a statewide network of transmitters) sends/distributes the datastream to each transmitter site from their network center via their statewide STL(studio-transmitter link) network, which is then "passed along"(without being decoded/reencoded at transmitter site) by the digital station's transmitter to be decoded on the user end -- For the analog station, at each transmitter site, the stream from the network center is decoded, and one of the SD services(they are multicasting several, with HD as well in the evening) is decoded and output as NTSC from the decoder+sent to the analog transmitter -- Therefore -- It's setup so the video signal from the analog station *should* be "pretty much" the same as the SD digital service --- And, It "pretty much" is (including color wise, and black/white level wise/etc/etc) when I switch between the two ....

Probably doesn't make much sense, but hopefully it helps in some way ...
--
corlay[/QUOTE]

Nitewatchman

07-20-06, 02:17 PM

Hey, Jeff?

I tried setting BCOL to a grayscale value to approximate the body color of my HS420,
to see if I liked that any better than Black; but I couldn't get the new value to save?

When I return to SM, it's reverted back to 0.

weird...

This setting is not marked with an asterix;
indicating temporary, and non-saveable in my models SM chart.
I wonder if it should be?...

--
corlay

I don't know -- It may be temporary/not saved on your set -- For my model's chart(KD34XBR960), it shows up in Green shading, and without an asterix.

That being said -- The first time I adjusted it, I *did* run into some problems getting it to "stick" - In fact, I experienced the same thing as you the first time I changed it. And, although I didn't take the best most "precise" notes concerning exactly what happened, farther below(below first dotted line) are the notes I did manage to take on it, and how I got it "to work" -- Note: IF I recall correctly -- what actually did the trick and got it to start "working" was I had to input a value other than "0" when I had "full" screen mode up on the screen - which definitely seemed odd, as of course, there is *NO* effect from this setting with "full" or any of the "zoom" modes ....

Since then, I've twiddled it several times to slightly different values(only for the screen modes it effects -- "normal" and "twin view"- for twin view, it gives you a "grey" background, you have two windows in middle of screen) and never had a problem with the new value "sticking".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From my "XBR960SM changes file" :

MID1:

Default in parentheses:

#24 - BCOL - 6 (0 )

BCOL set to 6 For All screen modes/Inputs - I.e. for "Normal", "Twin View"(for others) and (I think) "full"

NOTE: In order for this to "stick" for "normal"(and not go back to 0/black - even though it still SAID 6) for some strange reason, EVEN though it was showing up as "6" no matter what AR mode I used, I had to enter 6 and press Mute-Enter for one of the other AR manipulation modes -- I think it was "full" but may have been one of the other ones, instead.

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corlay

07-20-06, 02:39 PM

If you do run into a problem, for instance with the black/white levels from your DVD player via composite out not "matching" your other devices, you'd then probably need to make adjustments by eye.
That's ok. Color/Hue is the grouping that I just can't seem to 'eyeball' very well. But if I can get that set via calibration with DVE, then I can flip-flop between RF and another source to manually set Picture/Brightness.

In short, it involved some color bars being broadcast by NTSC station(received analog OTA) late at night(which were definitely "wrong" as being sent),
Yeah, my local NBC station broadcasts the NTSC color bars after ~2:00am; and I actually stayed up one night and calibrated RF to that. It differed by 2-3 clicks for UCOF and 1-2clicks for UHOF from my DVE calibrated component input. I lived with it for a few days, and decided that it looked like total sh*t. The ABC station looked OK, but all the rest (all 13 of 'em. WHOOHOO!) were hard to look at. So, for now, I've just set all of my input paths that I'm currently using (RF, Composite) to the Component settings...

Probably doesn't make much sense, but hopefully it helps in some way ...
I admit - not easy to follow. But I get the jist of it, I think...

--
corlay

corlay

07-20-06, 02:42 PM

NOTE: In order for this to "stick" for "normal"(and not go back to 0/black - even though it still SAID 6) for some strange reason, EVEN though it was showing up as "6" no matter what AR mode I used, I had to enter 6 and press Mute-Enter for one of the other AR manipulation modes -- I think it was "full" but may have been one of the other ones, instead.

Thanks!

I'll try that tonight...

--
corlay

justsc

07-20-06, 03:32 PM

I've verified that my HS420 does not have internal test patterns in the SM.

So, what's my best option for calibrating *all* my inputs for color/hue, picture/brightness, etc.?

I can hook up the dvd player to run through RF (my cable tv input, via composite to the VCR player, and RF from VCR to TV...) and composite (my VCR input, direct from DVD player) and calibrate that way; but is that worthwhile?
This is reliant upon my dvd player to be consistient with the cable tv and vcr source signals regularly sent through those paths. Will it get me close?

--
corlay
The way I handled this was to use the test patterns provided by INHD via Comcast. The "show" was called (IN)HD Tune Up and was broadcast every Saturday morning at 7:00 eastern time. There were test patterns for contrast, brightness, color and hue. They also had a pattern for convergence that can almost be used for sharpness. They also included audio test patterns for HT set-up.

Fortunately I recorded this show, as I haven't seen it on lately. I understand HDNet also broadcasts a similar show.

Nitewatchman

07-20-06, 03:55 PM

The way I handled this was to use the test patterns provided by INHD via Comcast. The "show" was called (IN)HD Tune Up and was broadcast every Saturday morning at 7:00 eastern time. There were test patterns for contrast, brightness, color and hue. They also had a pattern for convergence that can almost be used for sharpness. They also included audio test patterns for HT set-up.

Fortunately I recorded this show, as I haven't seen it on lately. I understand HDNet also broadcasts a similar show.

That's great to calibrate for 1080i(from internal ATSC/QAM tuner via cablecard or as *specific* to your cable STB via component or HDMI) ---- however, I don't believe any of that would be relevent to NTSC SD analog signals via RF input, or via composite input - except perhaps to some extent if you are referring to hooking up a cable STB via s-video or composite input and sending a 480i/SD signal from the STB to the TV to make use of those patterns, or sending 480i SD/NTSC to a DVR VCR/etc. for calibration of the input used with VCR ....

Completetly different SM settings per SCAN rate of source signal(480i, 1080i/etc), in some cases even different scan rates coming through the *same* input ..... For instance ... 2170P-3 has "specific" settings per scan rate, such as for example, UBOF (black level offset) for *each* scan rate via "RF" input (NTSC SD, 480i,480p,720p,1080i HD. Different 2170P4 color saturation/HUE settings per different scan rate. *some* settings are not only "different" for scan rate, but are different for input as well --- different settings for say, 1080i via Component, HDMI OR from the internal ATSC/QAM tuner.

Note that in the SM/code charts, "RF" refers to only the sets' NTSC OTA/Cable ready tuner --- However -- Signals from the sets NTSC OTA/Cable ready tuner, the set's internal ATSC/QAM tuner(could be 480i/480p/720p/1080i) all pass through only a single(or two) "inputs" (either Antenna or cable on back of set) so to speak, with only one set of settings to use for both those inputs on back of set via the user menu controls(sharpness, contrast, brightness sliders/etc) ....

Also, for example --- "RF" and CV/YC(composite and s-video) have several specific(to each) color and "contrast" related settings in 2103-1. 2103-1 settings Don't effect 1080i at all, even those signals coming through the same "RF input" (such as from the internal tuners) and having only 1 set of values available via the user menu controls. Also, 480p, 720p, and 1080i are effected by various 2171CXA chip settings, 480i/NTSC signals go nowhere near that chip ....

OTOH, I do have some of the HDnet patterns(1920x1080i) on MS you mention, and they do seem to match up well given a calibration for 1080i ATSC via the internal ATSC QM test patterns.

Nitewatchman

07-20-06, 11:20 PM

I can hook up the dvd player to run through RF (my cable tv input, via composite to the VCR player, and RF from VCR to TV...) and composite (my VCR input, direct from DVD player) and calibrate that way; but is that worthwhile?
This is reliant upon my dvd player to be consistient with the cable tv and vcr source signals regularly sent through those paths. Will it get me close?

Oops! another thought on this I forgot to mention earlier, as I think I misunderstood what you were saying a bit ... You know, I'm not so sure I'd trust the RF modulator in a DVD player or VCR for "accurate" color, but then again, who knows it might work to get you "close" for the RF input ...

And, I'd also probably want to run the output direct from the DVD player to the TV (whether via composite, s-video or RF) ...

Also, You may not get the same(or accurate, or "as accurate") results for instance via the VCR's input and running "through" the VCR in "real time" vs the VCR's tuner, or hooking DVD player directly to TV, or, for example making a recording and playing the tape ...

If I recall correctly(and I may not be), it may turn out that you may also run into some "copy protection" snafu's(so to speak) using the VCR's input in such a manner ...

justsc

07-21-06, 02:32 PM

That's great to calibrate for 1080i(from internal ATSC/QAM tuner via cablecard or as *specific* to your cable STB via component or HDMI) ---- however, I don't believe any of that would be relevent to NTSC SD analog signals via RF input, or via composite input - except perhaps to some extent if you are referring to hooking up a cable STB via s-video or composite input and sending a 480i/SD signal from the STB to the TV to make use of those patterns, or sending 480i SD/NTSC to a DVR VCR/etc. for calibration of the input used with VCR ......
My mistake. :o

I thought he was trying to directly calibrate his HD input in the absense of internal test patterns.

Oh well...

KenTech

07-21-06, 04:47 PM

For instance --- While yes, it's true that ATSC/QAM tuners use the "RF" input so to speak --- HOWEVER --- there's no way to calibrate for NTSC SD analog signals from those patterns. And in this case, for "RF input" You have to calibrate for each source signal's input source's (scan rate - 480i/480p/720p/1080i ATSC, and for NTSC SD) Seperately.I don't have a color-bar generator for standard analog RF, but I am pleased with the adjustments I have made. In summary:

(1) I note that analog-RF station-to-station differences are greater than any error I am likely to incur from mis-adjusting color, or rather using other inputs to adjust it, assuming adequacy for RF. So . . .

(2) I used alignment DVDs to adjust my component and HDMI inputs for my Panasonic S97 player.

(3) I used the built-in patterns to adjust HD 1080i and 720p for color and hue.

(4) I made initial adjustments to color and hue for 480i from the built-in test patterns.

(5) I note that local analog-cable studio broadcasts and high-quality network feeds are generally dead-on in color and hue, according to my eyes. Occasionally I reduce Color a bit. I can't ask for more. And I consider it perfectly normal when switching to (for example) MTV "reality" programming to (a) make a big adjustment to the black level, and (b) reduce color a lot, maybe from 31 to 25. So much for standards! Same with much of PBS-SD.

(6) Previous to all of this, I found my set's "RF" adjustments to be rather well-set out-of-the-box. When I got various color parameters tweaked with the DVD test disks, RF sort of fell into place. Maybe that was just good luck.

The bottom line is that, as long as good big-network and local-studio feeds look good, I am willing to tolerate a lot of variation from the other analog cable channels, and just tweak the controls on the fly. I simply don't hold those broadcasts to the same standards as big-budget DVDs and HD broadcast, or even DVD releases of older films (which I like a lot).

An addendum: I'm sorry to hear from Jeff that his local color bars gave such poor results! One time I stumbled on color bars on the Travel Channel on analog cable. You can't imagine how quickly I got into service mode and quickly shut down various color guns to see how things looked! To my surprise, color pretty much looked well-adjusted -- not that I think Travel Channel is a perfect example (although lately they are much better than a year ago!), but those bars were pure serendipity. I haven't a clue where to find more bars on the usual analog cable channels.

Nitewatchman

07-21-06, 09:10 PM

My mistake.

I thought he was trying to directly calibrate his HD input in the absense of internal test patterns.

No problem .. BTW ... I was hoping my earlier response didn't seem "standoffish", as I certianly did not intend it to be ... but, I know it's difficult to judge "intent" on a forum such as this, hence why I'm "commenting" on it here(probably unnecessarily) ...

Nitewatchman

07-21-06, 09:56 PM

An addendum: I'm sorry to hear from Jeff that his local color bars gave such poor results! .

Well, it seems rare here to catch color bars up from NTSC stations, at least with my schedule. It just so happened that when I did, it was from a station which at the time wasn't sending accurate colorimetry. And as you say, the video "quality"(colorimetry, black levels/etc) can vary greatly among such sources .... Probably also doesn't help some of these stations seem to think it's a good idea to have their own "look" .....

Don't think I've ever caught test patterns up from any of the services I receive via satellite(dish network receiver via CV/YC- s-video), besides a quick pattern up from NASATV occasionally(but not long enough to get into SM and use the 3dcomb "FRZE" control to "freeze it" before it disappears!), and I've missed anything like that so far on the travel channel ...

Now ... OTOH, I *have* on occasion caught *dead on* color bars up from local ATSC broadcast sources -- 480i SD "subchannels", and HD color bars from CBS HD network feed when a MCO neglected to switch from the network feed to local after a night of HD programming/etc ....

In fact, at one point I had recorded some color bars which were up on a PBS stations 480i SD subchannel to S-VHS(via an external ATSC decoder sending 480i via S-video to the VCR). Among other things involving another set(the set the external "HD" ATSC tuner/decoder is hooked up to via component connections)this allowed me to seemingly *confirm*, in a sense my calibration of color of the XBR960's CV/YC (Svideo) input - which I had performed with a DVD player(Avia/DVE color tests) hooked up to S-Video input making use of RGBS as well, of course. I wasn't sure whether it would work or not, and must say I was a bit surprised the S-VHS recording *did* match my color calibartion with DVD player via S-video. Given what I see colorwise with *real* programming from Sat receiver also hooked up to S-Video, I must also assume the calibration via the DVD player hooked to s-video worked well for it also ...

Might have to hook up the S-VHS deck to RF input, and via the VCR's RF modulator at some point see what those color bars look like(I think I still have it) just for the heck of it ...

(6) Previous to all of this, I found my set's "RF" adjustments to be rather well-set out-of-the-box. When I got various color parameters tweaked with the DVD test disks, RF sort of fell into place. Maybe that was just good luck.

Didn't have to do much for CV/YC or RF here, either. For that matter, Colorwise --- Other than RYR~GYB adjustment, and adjustment of CBOF/CROF offsets(couldn't use color bars/color decoding tests for CBOF/CROF adjustment of course - using video black and color/brightness sliders worked well though, along with tests with "real" B&W programming) . ---------- My color adjustments from factory values have been very slight for all used inputs/scan rates -- For instance ... only needed to make slight adjustements to 2170P4 SCOL for *any* used input, and didn't need to change 2170P4 SHUE for anything(for color/Hue sliders 31/0). Based on others reports I assume most sets will *not* require this, but I did also need to do a very slight adjustment to 2171cxa CBGN~YGN (CBGN~CRGN being the relevant "color" seettings) - to "4-4-4" from factory value of "4-5-5" - colorwise, involving for a slight imbalance for 480p/720p/1080i signals via ATSC internal tuner+ 480p Via DVD via V5/V6 component which was occuring.

Color decoding wise -- Concerning RF+CV/YC for NTSC SD sources -- Just some slight tweaks to 2103-1 SHUE/SCOL were necessary after adjusting 2170P4 SCOL for 480i DRC(no change for SHUE needed) via color tests from DVD+ a couple of QM 480i patterns - as of course all 480i DRC processed sources(including NTSC from RF and CV/YC) share the same 2170P4 SCOL/SHUE setting. I first did it with the P2170-3 offsets, but later decided to do it in 2103-1 instead, which if I recall correctly allowed for a little "finer" control -- and of course similar adjustments were needed in 2103-2 for the right twin view window ... The latter might seem overly obsessive, but, since I do use it occasionally -- it did bother me when the L+R twinview windows did not "match" each other with the factory settings when the same input source was used for both .... I certianly won't be making slight tweaks for posisitioning of L+R twinview windows(or index, favorites/"freeze"/etc) via MID3 VDHP/VDVE controls however!

Really, the *most* significant change/improvement for me for color decoding resulted from adjusting 2170P4 RYR~GYB from factory values to 14-14-6-4 (I also have RYR~GYB set to 13-15-5-3 for the other user menu color-axis choice - although I rarely(well, pretty much never) actually use it. It *did* take me a while to decide on 14-15-6-4 vs 14-14-6-4 ... but after several weeks, based mostly on slight differences in flesh tones - decided on 14-14-6-4, even though I *thought* I acheived slightly better results with 14-15-6-4 via avia/DVE color tests, as well as similar tests I did via MS and the internal "QM" patterns .....

NTSC wise, I use "RF input" solely for analog OTA broadcasts, which of course, as scheduled now(at least from "full service" stations) will be going away in a few years .... Although, currently I certianly do appreciate a high quality NTSC broadcast, and often still use it for the 23 local NTSC stations(full service and low power) I receieve mostly excellent quality signals from OTA. For example, in many cases, and for various reasons I seem to prefer the "look" of the NTSC video vs. what I get from a digital station's when they are upconverting the analog plant's NTSC SD signal to 720p/1080i ....

I assume(hope anyway) once we get closer to analog shut off, stations(in my area at least) will begin to pay a little more attention to the quality of their digital broadcasts during times when the Network HD feed isn't active ....

In any case, I'm also very happy with the results I've come up with on all used inputs/scan rates, including RF input for OTA NTSC broadcast sources.

KenTech

07-22-06, 06:55 PM

I have a geometry issue I'd like some help with, if anyone has any fresh ideas. There may be no perfect solution.

If I set vertical linearity for 480i full-screen to be just perfect, using the usual patterns (crosshatch, circles, etc.), and adjusting the usual service-mode parameters (2170D-1: VLIN, VSCO, UVLN, LVLN), the display is then not linear in 1080i HD-braodcast mode. The center is stretched, and moving film credits swell as they pass the middle of the screen and shrink as they disappear off the top. Interestingly, 960i and 480p in 16:9 (DVD-anamorphic) mode is fine, tracking the 4:3 settings. It's the damn HD that's screwed up.

I have juggled VSCO and the two _VLN parameters to lessen the stretch on HD and add a little center compression on SD, which I don't seem to notice much. But that seems like a poor workaround.

So the burning question is: Is there a setting for 1080i I'm missing that tweaks linearity for that mode relative to the 480/960i modes? (Maybe this problem doesn't appear at all on widescreen sets, although my 16:9 480p raster should mimic that condition.)

I'm not thinking there's a solution in any of the MID groups, since those are exclusively digital scaling, positioning, and superimposing functions. In 2170D-2 there are UCP, LCP, UXCG, LXCG, UXCP, and UXLP parameters that affect only PIN correction in the corners. The raster-mode switch (a deflection parameter) is hiding as IDSW in 2170P-4, but I don't see anything else there related to deflection. I can't guess what 2170D-4/VLNL and VLNH do.

I'm out of ideas. Any suggestions?

GlenC

07-23-06, 01:09 AM

Ken,

“Speed bumps” are really annoying and time consuming to eliminate because there are so many adjustments that interact.

Have you tried the UVLN/LVLN (upper/lower vertical linearity) after setting 1080i? VSCO may apply too. I don’t have one here, so I can’t verify the function. You might get linearity correct for 1080i, and adjust ULVN/LVLN to correct 4:3. This may also interact with vertical size adjustments and the VSZO for 1080i.

GeminiEntity

07-23-06, 04:23 AM

I just wanted to ask, do the numbers 7, 8 or 9 by themselves do anything on a XBR970 in the SM?

Cause I hit 8 by itself (I think 8, could have been 7 or 9 though), but pretty sure it was 8 due to me using the button 5 at the time when I saw "reset" pop up in green. I stopped right away and didn't do anything else.

I'm just wondering now if maybe the XBR970 is a bit different for the dangerous buttons, or is it normal for "reset" to pop up from 1 dangerous button press? With 3 only being for the save feature.

KenTech

07-23-06, 02:30 PM

Have you tried the UVLN/LVLN (upper/lower vertical linearity) after setting 1080i? VSCO may apply too. I don’t have one here, so I can’t verify the function. You might get linearity correct for 1080i, and adjust ULVN/LVLN to correct 4:3. This may also interact with vertical size adjustments and the VSZO for 1080i.They all apply in both scan modes, and they all interact. I have become thoroughly familiar with these basic adjustments, and the point is that a good set of adjustments for 480i is somewhat off for 1080i, unless there is a "trick" I haven't discovered yet.

An example: VSCO is "s-correction" along the vertical axis, stretching or compressing the center third of the scrren relative to the top and bottom. But the action of UVLN/LVLN is similar, but not exactly the same. I have tried various combinations of VSCO, VLIN, VSIZ, and UVLN/LVLN -- there is more than one set of numbers that looks just fine on, say, 480. But they all suffer from the same basic problem: A perfect raster set for 4:3 or 16:9 480i/p suffers a bit from top and bottom compression in 1080i 16:9. SInce the vertical scan rate is the same, I can't imagine what changes! If the scan is perfectly linear for 60Hz vertical rate for 480, why would it become nonlinear for 1080? Only the horizontal scan is changed.

It may come down to the compromise: Which is more obnoxious, compression at top and bottom on HD, or a little stretch top and bottom on 480 full-screen? My interim solution is to split the error, minimizing the HD distortions. Not bad. But you'd think that there would be separate registers for a couple of these parameters for this TV's two scan modes (540 and 480 lines, 60Hz).

KenTech

07-23-06, 02:52 PM

<snip> Cause I hit 8 by itself (I think 8, could have been 7 or 9 though), but pretty sure it was 8 due to me using the button 5 at the time when I saw "reset" pop up in green. I stopped right away and didn't do anything else.

I'm just wondering now if maybe the XBR970 is a bit different for the dangerous buttons, or is it normal for "reset" to pop up from 1 dangerous button press? With 3 only being for the save feature.I just reviewed the 960's service-manual pages for navigating service mode. It seems that all dangerous actions (e.g. the "bad" INI function) require three button-presses. They start with 7 and include 9 or Jump as button #2. I have seen an unwanted RESET message pop up when I accidentally press only one button. I'll check later today to see what that button might be. I think it's 8.

In any case, you did exactly the right thing by stopping when you saw something unfamiliar pop up. This happens to me occasionally, and I just freeze! In a couple of seconds, the screen reverts to SERVICE, and you're fine.

The service manual for the 970's predescessors does not document any two-button combinations that are dangerous. 0 - Enter (displays READ) just restores the settings that were last-saved and is essential before making changes you wish to save. (It erases any haphazard diddling that may have preceded your intent to save some settings. It's best to READ the saved settings, make the new settings, then WRITE them. That way you don't accidentally save something unintended.)

I believe I have read in this forum that 8 brings up RESET, and it's not documented in the manual. But I recall that it's the same as the user-menu function: It sets the user menus back to factory defaults and does not affect any service-mode parameters. I would search for this message in this thread to see what that person wrote. I have never used the RESET function, as it makes me nervous and I have had no reason to use it.

(Sony has no incentive to change service-mode navigation for the 960-970 model update. They would upset a lot of service people, too!)

Nitewatchman

07-23-06, 03:28 PM

(Maybe this problem doesn't appear at all on widescreen sets, although my 16:9 480p raster should mimic that condition.)?

FWIW, *Vertical* linearity *matches up* on my XBR960 for all the different scan rates/screen modes(per crosshatch patterns via 480i/480p/DVD, and 1080i MS/QM patterns) .....

The issue I have involves Horizontal linearity(per all scan rates/screen modes) issue in about the middle(existing from top to bottom) of the "right 1/2" and "Left 1/2" of screen , and there doesn't seem to be a way to get it "perfect" .... Athough can't say it's something I notice is a problem while watching programming.

As I believe I've mentioned previously -- Oddly enough, it seems "HCNT" setting does effect it slightly(VERY slightly), even when HPOS is adjusted to center the image. So, I get *slightly* improved Horizontal Linearity using "HCNT=40"(needs HPOS=25 to achieve the same "image" centering result as HPOS=27 for HCNT=38) vs HCNT=38(needs HPOS=27 for proper centering of image), the latter which "centers" the raster and was the factory default. It is so slight of an improvement in H linearity(and pretty much requires careful measurement of crosshatch "boxes" to detect it), however that for other reasons, I think I've pretty much settled on "centering the raster" with HCNT=38 ...

a good set of adjustments for 480i is somewhat off for 1080i ..

I have run into an alltoghether(seemingly) "different" issue with this .. Small distortions in vertical lines several inches down from upper right/left corners of screen which are *barely* there or noticable for 480i/p to some, slight extent, but are worse/much more apparent with 1080i/720p ... These distortions are somewhat "annoying", but effect such a small area of screen(although the "bends" involved don't *seem* all that small) that although they are effected somewhat by various settings (SLIN, UCP/etc), there seems to be no way to entirely "fix it" with SM settings ... They are especially annoying on the upper left side of screen via the 720p/1080i internal "QM" section sweep patterns, and the left vertical lines in the "banner info box" that displays program/ratings info/etc from EPG info sent via something called "PSIP" by ATSC broadcast stations/etc .....

====================================

Having dealt with geometry/linearity issues on three different models of "flat-screen" Direct-View CRT HD displays I've owned so far, and pretty much a lack of such issues(and ease of adjustments concerning the slight issues that were present) on an RCA F38310 (38" 16x9 HD DV-CRT) with a CURVED tube : I must say, In this regard I liked the "curved tube" set better ...

ELBEBE1000

07-23-06, 05:42 PM

some one heard about the sony xbr 400 or any other that we can apply also?

GeminiEntity

07-23-06, 10:16 PM

I just reviewed the 960's service-manual pages for navigating service mode. It seems that all dangerous actions (e.g. the "bad" INI function) require three button-presses. They start with 7 and include 9 or Jump as button #2. I have seen an unwanted RESET message pop up when I accidentally press only one button. I'll check later today to see what that button might be. I think it's 8.

In any case, you did exactly the right thing by stopping when you saw something unfamiliar pop up. This happens to me occasionally, and I just freeze! In a couple of seconds, the screen reverts to SERVICE, and you're fine.

The service manual for the 970's predescessors does not document any two-button combinations that are dangerous. 0 - Enter (displays READ) just restores the settings that were last-saved and is essential before making changes you wish to save. (It erases any haphazard diddling that may have preceded your intent to save some settings. It's best to READ the saved settings, make the new settings, then WRITE them. That way you don't accidentally save something unintended.)

I believe I have read in this forum that 8 brings up RESET, and it's not documented in the manual. But I recall that it's the same as the user-menu function: It sets the user menus back to factory defaults and does not affect any service-mode parameters. I would search for this message in this thread to see what that person wrote. I have never used the RESET function, as it makes me nervous and I have had no reason to use it.

(Sony has no incentive to change service-mode navigation for the 960-970 model update. They would upset a lot of service people, too!)

Thanks for replying so soon. I tried searching for the post about 8/Reset but I got nothing. It probably was 8 that I hit, due to me using 5 just before reset popped up. One thing is for sure, if I didn't hit 8 and 7 or 9 was hit, I definitely did not hit 7 and 9 together. Cause with one thumb that's impossible unless you are trying to. :D

Another thing, you said that the notes are in order of importance. So I should start with color and black level, then gamma, then brightness, etc? I can't seem to find though anything to fix my geometry problems, is that located somewhere in this thread?

Thanks

corlay

07-24-06, 10:45 AM

anyone see any harm in a calibrated SBRT value of 19?

This is due to my 480i output from my DVD player being *much brighter* than 480p. So, I've settled on UBOF=0 for 480i, and UBOF=5 for 480p on V5/V6. My other signal paths fall in between with RF @ UBOF=2 and CY/CV @ UBOF=3.

I've read here that re-caibrating the *DRV/*CUT values with SRBT @ 31-ish may produce better results? Is this the general concensus? Just wanted to be sure before I go and jack with those settings... My range for *DRV/*CUT settings now are ~18 - ~45. If I'm understanding the relationships correctly, raising SBRT will force me to *lower* that range, correct? Some folks had reported optimal results with those values pushed higher, rather than lower; which is why I'm concerned.

I'm leaning toward just leaving well enough alone...

--
corlay

RWetmore

07-24-06, 11:48 AM

KenTech

07-24-06, 01:39 PM

I've read here that re-caibrating the *DRV/*CUT values with SRBT @ 31-ish may produce better results? Is this the general concensus?I agree with RWetmore that you're probably just fine. What none of know for sure is where these scaling parameters (SBRT, Brightness menu, the RDRV~BCUT settings, etc.) are applied in the processing chain. There is always the possibility that a high setting before an amplification or filtering stage, "compensated" by a low setting after that stage, may cause over-driving of that intermediate stage, resulting in some nonlinearity. If the processing ir purely digital, likely there's no problem. And the internal computation may simply add together (digitally) the SBRT and Brightness settings, which means they are equivalent.

But we know none of this for sure. I have simply followed my engineer's instincts, looked at Sony's default settings, and aimed for values near the middle of the range for certain parameters, such as the _DRV and _CUT settings. My TV came with SBRT set at 16 or 18 (a bad case of black crush!), and I had to increase it. But if your set looks good with SBRT at 19, I'd leave it be. I'm more suspicious of other parameters being at the extremes, maybe _DRV and _CUT, but not SBRT + Brightness.

KenTech

07-24-06, 09:07 PM

Another thing, you said that the notes are in order of importance. So I should start with color and black level, then gamma, then brightness, etc?I confess that the order is merely the order it occurred to me to write those articles. (I assume that's what you're referring to.) Many of the realms of adjustment, e.g. black level, Picture (contrast), gamma, are completely independent. Others, such as grayscale and color temperature, are intimately intertwined. (Hm. Interesting metaphor.) I guess I started with what I perceived as fundamentals, then went on to refine the adjustments as I got smarter -- the image-processing, for example.I can't seem to find though anything to fix my geometry problems, is that located somewhere in this thread?Several folks, including me, have posted suggestions about geometry. I dealt formally with focus and convergence, but I personally kept putting off formal comments about geometry until way after those initial articles. Meanwhile, other folks stepped in to answer questions and help -- you just have to search for the posts.

Dr. Spankenstein

07-25-06, 05:41 PM

Sorry for the OT post, but I submitted a post a while ago in which I stated that some of my adjustments in the 2170D-1 menu stopped having an effect (VCEN and VPIN in particular.)
Now, to my horror, I recently discovered that the Vertical Tilt and Centering adjustments in the User Menu don't respond to adjustment either. I haven't come across any other SM adjustments that have lost their effectiveness. Any ideas as to where this problem could be based?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Regards,

Bryan

p.s. I will post in the 955 owners thread as well. MOD please delete this post if it is misplaced.

RWetmore

07-26-06, 12:13 AM

I can't seem to find though anything to fix my geometry problems, is that located somewhere in this thread

Someone posted a pdf file of the geometry adjustment diagrams in the service manual here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8075525&&#post8075525

KenTech

07-26-06, 02:51 AM

Right. May be the same thing, but you can also check out posts nos. 33 and 78, too. It's important to follow the procedure, using Sony's service-manual procedure to (a) center the raster on the tube; then (b) center the video frame on the raster. The other adjustments proceed from there (linearity, aspect ration, overscan, pincushion, etc.).

raaj

07-26-06, 08:15 AM

KenTech,

I opened a thread about the color depth supported by Sony XBR910 using its DVI input, but no one seemed to even look at it.

Do you know what color depth is supported by the XBR910 tube? I am specifically refering to the ability (or lack thereof) of DVI in general or XBR910 with DVI in particular to display Blacker Than Black and Whiter Than White signals.

Do you know?

KenTech

07-26-06, 02:14 PM

I opened a thread about the color depth supported by Sony XBR910 using its DVI input, but no one seemed to even look at it.

Do you know what color depth is supported by the XBR910 tube? I am specifically refering to the ability (or lack thereof) of DVI in general or XBR910 with DVI in particular to display Blacker Than Black and Whiter Than White signals.I know know only that it is widely acknowledged that the sets having HDMI inputs support the full HDMI definition. Although I have read the description, I have no savvy about the distinction between DVI and HDMI. I think DVI is a subset, meaning its capabilities are contained within HDMI.

But does the 910 support the full HDMI spec? The later 32-36XS955 and XBR960s do, indeed.

You can read the spec. I seem to recall that it's at least 8-bit (for DVI), maybe 10-bit luminance resolution (for HDMI) -- there are a certain number of bits supported. I believe "black" is supplied by the signal source to a certain standard, or not, and it's not up to the TV. Example: My Panasonic S97 DVD player does not support BTB and WTW out of the box; you have to fudge the "brightness" up and "contrast" down in the player to allow for a couple of those extra levels. The TV is simply displaying what it is fed.

The specifications of DVI and of HDMI are easily available on the Internet. For the video source, I believe black is typically defined, not as digital zero, but as a low number -- 16? And white is not 255 but something less -- 239 or 235? It's the TV's job to display all levels from 0 to 255. If the source has black at zero, then there's no possibility for BTB; if it's 16, BTB is possible, and the TV is adjusted for proper black level = 16.

Bottom line: The TV's job is to potentially display all the bit-levels sent to it. How they're defined is up to the source, but you get to determine on the TV what level is displayed as "black" (SBRT and other black-level offsets, plus the Brightness slider).

KenTech

07-26-06, 02:23 PM

. . . some of my adjustments in the 2170D-1 menu stopped having an effect (VCEN and VPIN in particular.)
Now, to my horror, I recently discovered that the Vertical Tilt and Centering adjustments in the User Menu don't respond to adjustment either. I haven't come across any other SM adjustments that have lost their effectiveness. Any ideas as to where this problem could be based?Something has changed, and the question is what. Has a wire come loose? Has a chip died?

If the centering and tilt, etc, are provided by physical magnetic coils separate from the main deflection coils (I don't know), their connection could have gone awry. If those geometry corrections are internally computed and added to the (still working) deflection currents (I'll put money on that), then something more subtle may have happened. In either case, it sound to me like it's a service issue. I am unaware that there's any service-mode settings that "locks out" changes to these parameters in software. I'll look at the circuit schematics to see if those functions are on a separate circuit board that may have come loose, but I doubt it. I think all deflection stuff is integrated on one board.

raaj

07-26-06, 03:25 PM

I know know only that it is widely acknowledged that the sets having HDMI inputs support the full HDMI definition. Although I have read the description, I have no savvy about the distinction between DVI and HDMI. I think DVI is a subset, meaning its capabilities are contained within HDMI.

But does the 910 support the full HDMI spec? The later 32-36XS955 and XBR960s do, indeed.

You can read the spec. I seem to recall that it's at least 8-bit (for DVI), maybe 10-bit luminance resolution (for HDMI) -- there are a certain number of bits supported. I believe "black" is supplied by the signal source to a certain standard, or not, and it's not up to the TV. Example: My Panasonic S97 DVD player does not support BTB and WTW out of the box; you have to fudge the "brightness" up and "contrast" down in the player to allow for a couple of those extra levels. The TV is simply displaying what it is fed.

The specifications of DVI and of HDMI are easily available on the Internet. For the video source, I believe black is typically defined, not as digital zero, but as a low number -- 16? And white is not 255 but something less -- 239 or 235? It's the TV's job to display all levels from 0 to 255. If the source has black at zero, then there's no possibility for BTB; if it's 16, BTB is possible, and the TV is adjusted for proper black level = 16.

Bottom line: The TV's job is to potentially display all the bit-levels sent to it. How they're defined is up to the source, but you get to determine on the TV what level is displayed as "black" (SBRT and other black-level offsets, plus the Brightness slider).

Ken, thank you very much for your input. I need to investigate this a bit more. May be I will burn a PC level "blacker than black" and "video level" black (16) in a test pattern on a disc, and display it on my tv. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Thanks, anyway.

KenTech

07-27-06, 05:32 PM

I need to investigate this a bit more. May be I will burn a PC level "blacker than black" and "video level" black (16) in a test pattern on a disc, and display it on my tv. It will be interesting to see what happens.I highly recommend either the AVIA or Digital Video Essentials DVD for testing. Further, you can easily build a test pattern, since the TV and graphics program likely speak the same language, bitwise. Example: If I construct a pattern in Photoshop and display it via the Memory Stick, the digital levels set in Photoshop jive with what the TV thinks these levels are. And if I extract a pattern from one of the DVDs, as a TIF file, that has specific levels of gray represented, Photoshop confirms those levels.

Your wildcard that I can't address is your computer's video card. But if it supplies 8-bit video (per color), the TV will display it correctly, according to how you have set the TV's Brightness control. Note: There's NO video level lower than digital 0. BTB is supplied from DVDs by the levels between 0 and however black really is defined, say 16. A computer program that is generating video with black = 0 has no BTB content, inherently.

RWetmore

07-29-06, 01:59 PM

Quick question:

What setting in what group controls the brightness of the service menu's green screen text?

I searched the thread, and couldn't find it. I know it is in here somewhere.

Thanks.

Dr. Spankenstein

07-29-06, 06:16 PM

Something has changed, and the question is what. Has a wire come loose? Has a chip died?

If the centering and tilt, etc, are provided by physical magnetic coils separate from the main deflection coils (I don't know), their connection could have gone awry. If those geometry corrections are internally computed and added to the (still working) deflection currents (I'll put money on that), then something more subtle may have happened. In either case, it sound to me like it's a service issue. I am unaware that there's any service-mode settings that "locks out" changes to these parameters in software. I'll look at the circuit schematics to see if those functions are on a separate circuit board that may have come loose, but I doubt it. I think all deflection stuff is integrated on one board.

I agree with you. It should all be together on one board/chip. This could also account for a problem I mentioned a month ago wherin I shifted my set on it's stand and it made a quick popping move when it finally lost it's traction with the top of the stand. It could have been violent enough to break a solder connection or disconnect a wire. This was the beginning of the upward bow at the botom of my screen. I had this adjusted out with a VCEN correction, then it reappeared.
It would certainly keep the service hours down if I could pinpoint the board/chip and maybe even purchase it beforehand.

Let me know what you find and thanks for your response.

Regards,

Bryan

jjmilo

07-29-06, 09:22 PM

Quick question:

What setting in what group controls the brightness of the service menu's green screen text?

I searched the thread, and couldn't find it. I know it is in here somewhere.

Thanks.

2170P-4 #31 LRGB
intensity increases with increase in numerical value

RWetmore

07-29-06, 10:41 PM

2170P-4 #31 LRGB
intensity increases with increase in numerical value

Thank you!

Compass

07-31-06, 06:48 PM

Hello KenTech and others. Thank you for this resource. I have a 36XS955 arriving shortly, and a copy of Digital Video Essentials that I will use in accordance with this thread to hopefully improve the image quality on my new set.

My question, though, relates to my SDTV from 2001, a Sony KD-36XBR250. I never calibrated this set outside of eliminating over-scan to the best of my abilities, and figure there's still some locked potential in there. Now that I have the Digital Video Essentials DVD, I'm ready to try my hand at some more serious calibration (and I could use the practice before I start tweaking the new 36XS955). The problem is that I can't find my Sony Service Codes print-out I got online when I first bought the set. I've google searched and searched on this site specifically, but don't come up with anything at all. Anyone know a source? Thanks a bunch.

darcon_adonis

08-01-06, 03:22 PM

hudsonkm

08-01-06, 07:58 PM

I have a question, but am not sure how to describe exactly what I am asking. I'll just go with it and hope you get the idea of where I'm going.

Ok, what determines the detail or resolution of what you see on the screen? For example, in 720p, is it the total size of the raster that makes up the 1280x720 lines of detail or is it the image itself?

Basically, I found that on my set I cannot achieve reasonably linearity without increasing the size of the raster itself to about 110% the size of the image. After which, I adjust for overscan.

By not filling the entire raster am I losing image detail? Or is my question confusing? ;) If so Ill draw up a few pictures to give an idea. I'm just trying to understand the relationship between the raster and the image layer in terms of the maximum lines of resolution for each progressive and interlaced scan mode.

MrGonk

08-02-06, 11:00 AM

justsc

08-02-06, 11:18 AM

justsc

08-02-06, 11:30 AM

i have a quandry... should i spring for a $300 isf calibration or try these tweaks myself? my concern is not in the risks that come with fooling with the service menu, but if there are things that might impact my picture that i can't do by myself without a professional, and those things are significant, i'm just going to spring for a pro calibration.

can anybody lend me some insight as to how diy service menu tweaks, done correctly, compare to a proper isf job?
i've been struggling with the same question. I have made a number of positive adjustments based on info learned here. I just love my picture. But I have good acquaintances on this forum that have paid for a pro calibration that are ecstatic with the results. I would love to have even better picture quality than I already enjoy, but will the "bang" be worth my buck?

I suspect that because the pros have specialized equipment (which I don't have), they could achieve results significantly beyond what I might get. Is it worth the price? I guess the only way I'll know is to spring the funds for it and find out myself. I just haven't reached that point yet.

If you are very, very comfortable with the vast majority of adjustments described here by KenTech and others you might just get very close. I'm not quite that ambitious, nor am I that confident in my abilities. Plus, I really don't want to spend the kind of time it would take to study and get things right. I'm pretty sure KenTech is fully satisfied with his results - and based on what he posts, I don't think he'll be paying for a pro calibration any time soon (if I've read him correctly). The work he's done here sharing his thoughts and results is nothing short of incredible. Of course, there's a number of others that he frequently replies to or debates with that have added even more value to this thread. I know of no better spot on the web to get this kind of indepth info on Sony Service Codes for the home enthusiast.

Whichever way you go, please let us know what you think about your results.

darcon_adonis

08-02-06, 01:13 PM

How thick (or thin) is the black line you are seeing?

It is as thick as whatever bright image is being displayed.

To clarify, the streak of darker black is going across the screen horizontally in both directions of say, a small white cube being displayed in the center of a black screen, and the streak is as thick as the hieght of the cube.

It's also worth noting that I can see this even if I don't use a source and have the TV's white interface appear in the upper corner, to rule out faulty cables or sources.

RWetmore

08-02-06, 04:54 PM

I helped a friend calibrate his 30XS955, and wanted to tell everyone that his main menu settings, especially Picture, Brightness, and Color needed to be set at significantly different values than mine in order to achieve the same levels, which suggests a high degree of variation from set to set with some adjustments. His greyscale, however, was in the same ball park, but still a little different.

For those who are looking to use or compare the values of others, you might want to reconsider doing so.

GlenC

08-02-06, 05:29 PM

i have a quandry... should i spring for a $300 isf calibration or try these tweaks myself? my concern is not in the risks that come with fooling with the service menu, but if there are things that might impact my picture that i can't do by myself without a professional, and those things are significant, i'm just going to spring for a pro calibration.

can anybody lend me some insight as to how diy service menu tweaks, done correctly, compare to a proper isf job?Just a few notes. Tweaks you do yourself can go well beyond the basic ISF Calibration, and take numerous hours. The one thing many cannot do themselves is set a proper grayscale. An ISF Calibrator will have a color analyzer to do this along with an HD signal generator to calibrate any of the inputs. A proper ISF calibration should yield the proper Grayscale for your calibrated inputs, adjustment of user controls for proper display (color, tint, black, white, detail etc.) with centering of many of the user controls at the proper calibration point and an explanation/training of how adjustments can be made to adjust for variations in mastering, broadcast, and lighting conditions.

A calibration can take four-hours or more, depending on the amount of work needed/desired. The ISF MSRP for two inputs is $350 prices may vary among calibrators.

The end result should yield a very watchable picture, adjusted for your system and viewing environment/conditions, one you can enjoy watching for quite some time. Depending on amount of use, grayscale should/could have an annual touch-up to adjust for phosphor wear variations to maintain optimal calibration.

hudsonkm

08-02-06, 08:41 PM

GlenC

08-02-06, 10:49 PM

Glen

I've been looking around my area for an ISF expert here in the Chicago suburbs. The main issue I have is small anomoly's in geometry. Now, since I have a CRT do you as an ISF calibrator believe that despite it being a CRT that in most cases you can improve it at least somewhat?

I'm trying to decide if it would be worth it for me. It's quite possible Im just being overly zealous in the whole geometry perfection thing. This happens to be something I carried with me from my time in the USMC. At times, I can admit to myself that I'm just being anal about perfection. But it's hard for me to decide in this case since I am not an AV industry professional.

For the most part my 20hs420 is used for the xbox360 and as a secondary home dvd theatre setup. I tend to use our LCD for movies however, so the xbox 360 is indeed the only real concern in terms of this sets calibration.

Thanks in advance“Doc, I don’t feel good, can you cure me?” Fixing geometry on a CRT is an skilled art, full of compromise. Since it is all analog, absolute perfection just doesn’t happen. It really depends on your specific issue. Problems with horizontal lines are generally a mechanical fix (service tech + magnets).

One thing to remember here is the purpose of the ISF was to optimize a given display to industry standards to enable you to see the picture “as the director intended” (common reference) with proper color, saturation, detail, yada yada………, not to correct manufacturing errors and defects. There are many “ISF” calibrators that have the CRT background to provide additional or expanded service. My take on this situation is if there is a “geometry” issue, it probably existed from the beginning and should be corrected by the manufacturer under warranty. It is difficult, because the TV manufacturer makes no claims about perfect geometry or grayscale. They even boast about their “dreadful” edge enhancement features they design to boost sales to the unknowing public. Advanced geometry is not in the scope of “ISF Calibrations”, it is considered more of a repair (IMO).

There are so many things that can detract from viewing pleasure. This is one reason I never mention the silk-screen effect (SSE) to RP micro-display customers or point out dead pixels. Once you see them, you always see them, and it can ruin the experience.

Once the grayscale is correct and all other settings are calibrated, the picture on an Sony DA-4 display (main focus of this thread) is generally stunning, and it’s easy to get wrapped-up in what you are watching, not seeing the flaws. Choosing to watch movies on an LCD TV, IMO, is a big compromise in its self…..

I cannot say if I can fix geometry issues until I actually see the TV, then who knows….. In some cases, there could be a major magnetic interference in an area, creating external problems that cannot be fixed. There you would go with something other than CRT.

You are the only one to determine the value of the fix. I would say that if gaming is the primary use of the TV and you are focusing on geometry errors, you are not doing too well with game scores. “Speed Bumps” and bent lines are probably the two biggest issues for distractions for me (outside of SSE).

RWetmore

08-02-06, 11:11 PM

RWetmore

08-03-06, 01:20 PM

corlay

08-07-06, 09:20 AM

Does anyone have a defined process they follow for setting geometry in Widezoom screen mode?

The issue for me is that I can't find the right combination of settings between Dvd player and tv to emulate a 4:3 image to adjust widezoom geometry to. And which DVE slide to use for this?

my tv is 30HS420, and my player can send the image in: 'letterboxed', "pan & scan', or '16:9'. I've tried all 3 settings, and none seems to emulate an RF broadcast 4:3 signal *exacly*; because things are getting cropped diferently between my DVD input and RF.

All I really want to do is adjust the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 groupings in the SM that are particualr to Widezoom (now that I've got the Full screenmode 16:9 set...), to optimize that picture so I've got ~5% overscan at the left and right edges; and something closer to 10% at the top and bottom (this is more watchable to me, less vertical 'squishing' of the 4:3 image, at the expense of lost top and bottom image to overscan...)

Also, in Widezoom, how should the geometry be set? If a uniform grid pattern is displayed, should I shoot for perfect squares (horix. and vert.) in the center, allowing some distortion outward, toward the edges? What's the concept, rule of thumb here? I know that there's some 'Sony Magic' going on with this mode, in converting a 4:3 to a 16:9 display; I just want to know what the thought process is behind it so I can work *with* this concept when adjusting geometry, instead of against it...

Any help would be appreciated....

Thanks.

--
corlay

acey

08-07-06, 10:54 AM

RWetmore

08-07-06, 11:15 AM

Just purchased a Sony KD-27FS170 - is there a service code that will rotate the display? Display is tilted a few degrees counter-clockwise. Is there any way for me to correct this or should I take it back and try another set?

I'm pretty sure there is a tilt adjustment for this set in the regular menu.

djserrin

08-07-06, 09:55 PM

My problem is that the picture is wider than what it's displaying, cutting off the edges of the picture.

I got into the service menu and was browsing around, and I need to know: How do you change the width of the picture to fit the screen?

djserrin

08-07-06, 10:20 PM

Found some settings, the edges on the sides are kinda wavy, but this board has been awesome for helping me figure this stuff out!! You guys rock!

RWetmore

08-07-06, 11:23 PM

jjmilo

08-08-06, 01:16 PM

Just purchased a Sony KD-27FS170 - is there a service code that will rotate the display? Display is tilted a few degrees counter-clockwise. Is there any way for me to correct this or should I take it back and try another set?

I believe RWetmore is correct, a user menu adjustment for tilt should be available for your set.
However if not, you should find an adjustment in the Service menu in
2170D-1 #8 NSC0

justsc

08-08-06, 02:22 PM

I believe RWetmore is correct, a user menu adjustment for tilt should be available for your set.
However if not, you should find an adjustment in the Service menu in
2170D-1 #8 NSC0
I don't believe it is available for the new 27" model. It is available on the 32" and 36" models but not for this one.

If there's a SM adjustment for this I have yet to identify it.

bast525

08-09-06, 10:30 AM

Does anyone know which setting, if any, can be used to fix this problem:

There is a slight uneven stretching of the image horizontally. Example: I put up a menu that has two columns on the left and right, evenly spaced from center. The columns display the exact same lines of text. After noticing that something didn't look right, I actually sat there with a measuring tape and measured a line of text on the left and right column (exact same text). I found that the text on the left hand side measured about 7", and the text on the right only 6.5". Also, the text on the left is a bit more blurry. I double checked this by putting up a grid pattern and sure enough the squares on the left are longer, horizontally.

I tried playing with some of the focus adjustments (QPAM etc), and also adjusting some of the H-settings (HPOS, HSIZ) etc, and really didn't help it much, though the H settings were able to help a little.

Is there another adjustment that I am missing that could fix this issue?

This is on a 34" XBR 970 by the way (no super fine pitch for me! Stop discontinuing your best TV's Sony!)

By the way KenTech and everyone THANK you for this awesome thread. I didn't even know until very recently that there WERE hidden service menus in these TV's. My XBR had pretty bad geometry issues right out of the box, most of which were easily identifiable and fixable, thanks to my lucking out and finding this thread. As many others here have, I have been able to GREATLY improve the PQ of my set, without ever having messed with this kind of thing before, just by following tips posted here.

Oh and KenTech, your RYB-GYB etc. settings (13-15-6-4) worked PERFECTLY for me as well... my TV had WAY too much red push going on and now it looks pretty darn near perfect.

RWetmore

08-09-06, 11:12 AM

Does anyone know which setting, if any, can be used to fix this problem:

There is a slight uneven stretching of the image horizontally. Example: I put up a menu that has two columns on the left and right, evenly spaced from center. The columns display the exact same lines of text. After noticing that something didn't look right, I actually sat there with a measuring tape and measured a line of text on the left and right column (exact same text). I found that the text on the left hand side measured about 7", and the text on the right only 6.5". Also, the text on the left is a bit more blurry. I double checked this by putting up a grid pattern and sure enough the squares on the left are longer, horizontally.

I tried playing with some of the focus adjustments (QPAM etc), and also adjusting some of the H-settings (HPOS, HSIZ) etc, and really didn't help it much, though the H settings were able to help a little.

Is there another adjustment that I am missing that could fix this issue?

Yes, there are adjustments for this. Off the top of my head, I forget what they are. Maybe SLIN...someone will know.

Oh and KenTech, your RYB-GYB etc. settings (13-15-6-4) worked PERFECTLY for me as well... my TV had WAY too much red push going on and now it looks pretty darn near perfect.

I haven't tried 13, 15, 6, 4 yet, but I will. I settled on 14, 14, 5, 3, but there is still seems to be a little red push.

bast525

08-09-06, 11:48 AM

yeah the red is still maybe a tad strong in my case as well and I may turn the 13 up to 14. Still a major improvement from what it was! (8-9-9-6 were the factory settings... blech!)

Oh and I don't think it's SLIN as I know I tried fiddling with that one as well, I think that one adjusts the stretch of the outter maybe 2/3 of the picture relative to the center 1/3. But it adjusts both sides equally. If I remember correctly that is what it does, unfortunately I'm at work so not in front of my set so I may be wrong but I know I tried SLIN to no avail.

bast525

08-09-06, 12:40 PM

Also, when I throw up the test grid (white lines on black background) I seem to be having horizontal convergences issue on the upper left corner, where the upper most couple rows of horizontal lines, you can see the red element kind of drooping and curving below the 'true' line as it gets closer to the left most edge. I did adjust many of the convergence settings in the SM but they all seem to affect vertical convergence, not horizontal, as far as I can tell.

I have seen this issue on another Sony HDTV Wega I saw at Circuit City, non wide screen just regular 4:3 HDTV, had the exact same issue. I'm guessing there is no fix for this in the SM?

KenTech

08-09-06, 12:41 PM

The issue for me is that I can't find the right combination of settings between Dvd player and tv to emulate a 4:3 image to adjust widezoom geometry to. And which DVE slide to use for this?

my tv is 30HS420, and my player can send the image in: 'letterboxed', "pan & scan', or '16:9'. I've tried all 3 settings, and none seems to emulate an RF broadcast 4:3 signal *exacly*; because things are getting cropped diferently between my DVD input and RF.

All I really want to do is adjust the 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 groupings in the SM that are particualr to Widezoom (now that I've got the Full screenmode 16:9 set...), to optimize that picture so I've got ~5% overscan at the left and right edges; and something closer to 10% at the top and bottom (this is more watchable to me, less vertical 'squishing' of the 4:3 image, at the expense of lost top and bottom image to overscan...)
My problem is that the picture is wider than what it's displaying, cutting off the edges of the picture.

I got into the service menu and was browsing around, and I need to know: How do you change the width of the picture to fit the screen?HSIZ, as RWetmore has said. But I thought I'd mention: Where there are some vertical scaling adjustments for different video modes, the horizintal one is global. For example, there is no way to adjust one of the Zoom modes in width without disturbing the normal width setting.

I wanted to do this so 4:3 broadcast on HD could be proportioned to fit my big 4:3 screen if I choose the Zoom mode. But I regret that this seems not possible. (Love to be proved wrong!) My set doesn't have a WideZoom mode, so if there is are specific settings for that, I can't confirm it.

KenTech

08-09-06, 01:17 PM

There is a slight uneven stretching of the image horizontally. Example: I put up a menu that has two columns on the left and right, evenly spaced from center. The columns display the exact same lines of text. After noticing that something didn't look right, I actually sat there with a measuring tape and measured a line of text on the left and right column (exact same text). I found that the text on the left hand side measured about 7", and the text on the right only 6.5". Also, the text on the left is a bit more blurry. I double checked this by putting up a grid pattern and sure enough the squares on the left are longer, horizontally. <snip> Is there another adjustment that I am missing that could fix this issue?That's very interesting! No one has brought this up before, and I note that there doesn't seem to be a code like "HLIN" that might fix this. I presume you have downloaded the relevant manual pages from here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5686484&&#post5686484). None of my charts even mention horizontal linearity.

The horizintal-deflection current is very strong and operates at high frequencies. The usual solution with analog sets was to include somewhere in the circuit to the deflection coils a robust inductor with a magnetized core that you could adjust with a screwdriver.

On the DZ circuit board, the inductor L5005 is identified as "HLC," which to me translates as "horizintal-linearity coil." There is no indication in the circuit diagram that it adjustable, and you'd have to open the set to try it -- not recommended. I would make a service claim against this complaint and get a tech to come to your home and fix it. That much nonlinearity seems unacceptable to me!Oh and KenTech, your RYB-GYB etc. settings (13-15-6-4) worked PERFECTLY for me as well... my TV had WAY too much red push going on and now it looks pretty darn near perfect.Lately I have settled on 14-14-6-4 for Default. Remember that you can set "Monitor" differently (I tried 13-15-6-4), and switch between them while watching. I have done that, but I keep coming back to 14-14-6-4 as an excellent compromise for DVDs and broadcast. YMMV, of course.

KenTech

08-09-06, 01:24 PM

Also, when I throw up the test grid (white lines on black background) I seem to be having horizontal convergences issue on the upper left corner, where the upper most couple rows of horizontal lines, you can see the red element kind of drooping and curving below the 'true' line as it gets closer to the left most edge.Just to make sure we've got the terminology straight: The vertical displacement of color on horizintal white lines is called vertical convergence -- fixed with permanent magnets stuck on the backside of the CRT and hard to fiddle with, plus rotating magnets on the neck of the CRT. The "other" convergence (vertical lines have color fringes) is horizontal convergence, and there are elaborate service-mode adjustments for this in the D-CONV. See those manual pages referenced above in #1889 for decent documentation.

bast525

08-09-06, 02:00 PM

That's very interesting! No one has brought this up before, and I note that there doesn't seem to be a code like "HLIN" that might fix this. I presume you have downloaded the relevant manual pages from None of my charts even mention horizontal linearity.

The horizintal-deflection current is very strong and operates at high frequencies. The usual solution with analog sets was to include somewhere in the circuit to the deflection coils a robust inductor with a magnetized core that you could adjust with a screwdriver.

On the DZ circuit board, the inductor L5005 is identified as "HLC," which to me translates as "horizintal-linearity coil." There is no indication in the circuit diagram that it adjustable, and you'd have to open the set to try it -- not recommended. I would make a service claim against this complaint and get a tech to come to your home and fix it. That much nonlinearity seems unacceptable to me!Lately I have settled on 14-14-6-4 for Default. Remember that you can set "Monitor" differently (I tried 13-15-6-4), and switch between them while watching. I have done that, but I keep coming back to 14-14-6-4 as an excellent compromise for DVDs and broadcast. YMMV, of course.

As far as the horizontal linearity, as far as I can tell there is nothing listed anywhere that directly, specifically points to this issue. Of course, until just this moment, I didn't know that that was the term for what I was seeing! At any rate, I have only had the TV a little over a week... I really wasn't enjoying the idea of having a tech come out to my house so soon but I may have to do just that.

About the color settings, I think I saw the same thing you are seeing, as I mentioned above, I had tried 14 instead of 13 for the first setting and found it a little better, but reverted back to 13 for the time being. I will try 14-14 when I get home instead of 13 or 14-15. A great side effect of this change in the SM settings, IMO, was that I was able to adjust the color slider in the regular user adjustments back to 50, whereas before I had turned it down a bit to try to lessen that way-too-overbearing red.

Thank you for the clarifications on terminology... this is all still kind of new to me. I've always been good at spotting problems with TV PQ issues, but until very recently never knew the terms for any of them.

So yeah, I'm having issues with vertical convergence in the upper left corner of the screen. I guess I'll deal with it as it's not easily spottable unless looking at the test grid and then it's only in that corner. But if I have a tech come out to look at this other problem with the horizontal linearity, is that something they would also be obliged to look at or fix under warranty?

And last question, is there a difference in what we are talking about with this linearity, as far as, one side seeming more horizontally stretched than the other one, and how you would describe increased stretching as you get away from center on BOTH sides? Example: the squares on a test grid in the very center of the screen might measure .5" across, then as you go towards EITHER edge of the TV, the width of the squares slowly increases (let's just say they increase evenly in either direction for this example). Is that a different term/problem? Is that something fixable with a SM setting?

darcon_adonis

08-09-06, 11:35 PM

It is as thick as whatever bright image is being displayed.

To clarify, the streak of darker black is going across the screen horizontally in both directions of say, a small white cube being displayed in the center of a black screen, and the streak is as thick as the hieght of the cube.

It's also worth noting that I can see this even if I don't use a source and have the TV's white interface appear in the upper corner, to rule out faulty cables or sources.

Bumping my issue.

KenTech

08-10-06, 02:58 AM

About the color settings, I think I saw the same thing you are seeing, as I mentioned above, I had tried 14 instead of 13 for the first setting and found it a little better, but reverted back to 13 for the time being. I will try 14-14 when I get home instead of 13 or 14-15. A great side effect of this change in the SM settings, IMO, was that I was able to adjust the color slider in the regular user adjustments back to 50, whereas before I had turned it down a bit to try to lessen that way-too-overbearing red.Note that you are wandering without direction unless you have a decent calibration DVD. There are color "pushes" in any number of broadcast programs (try the Food Channel!), so one needs a standard way of calibrating color, both in the decoding and the overall amount.So yeah, I'm having issues with vertical convergence in the upper left corner of the screen.Some of these "defects," if tolerable, are best left alone if you don't much see them. I have an upper-right vertical convergence problem that's visible on crosshatch patterns but hardly noticable on real programming. Those magnets are a real bear to adjust and they interact with each other: you fix convergence in one area, and it's now screwed up somewhere else!is there a difference in what we are talking about with this linearity, as far as, one side seeming more horizontally stretched than the other one, and how you would describe increased stretching as you get away from center on BOTH sides?Yeah, that's easy. That one is known as S-linearity. The vertical correction is 2170D-1/#4-VSCO, and the horizintal equivalent (what you mentioned) is 2170D-2/#3-SLIN.

Be sure to write down the original settings before you WRITE new ones!

bast525

08-10-06, 10:59 AM

Thanks for the additional info KenTech. I agree with you that it's not really worth worrying about the convergence issues in the corner, it's rarely noticeable and not worth trying voodoo magic with magnets to fix, IMO. :)

I also agree it's not worth really trying to fine tune the colors w/o the DVE DVD.... again I hadn't even planned on TOUCHING anything other than the geometry adjustments (only because I did have a video game disc that has a crosshatch test grid displayed when it first starts up). But after reading how EVERYONE had that 'red push' on their Sony sets and me noticing mine had the same thing, and then reading what you said: "The first try I got 13-15-5-4, and others have reported those settings, too. Big improvement! You could do a lot worse than simply trying those settings", I figured there'd be no harm in just trying those numbers even w/o DVE. Sure enough, the picture looked MUCH better to my eyes after the adjustment. I have no idea how close to 'perfect' it really is, but I'm happy with it.

Only problem is that after more extended viewing it now seems to have just a slight bit too much greenish tinge to yellows/oranges and very light beige/browns. But anyways... yeah definately not going to try to really tweak the colors, and I'm not even going to TOUCH the black levels/gamma etc., w/o the DVE disc. And don't worry I am taking all the warnings to heart, I'm not adjusting anything w/o first writing down the original value.

Now my next issue... I spent a little more time tinkering with convergence yesterday with the crosshatch pattern, and got it to where it looked PERFECT. Except for that one upper left corner, it really looked like the convergence was spot-on horizontally and vertically.

It wasn't. I started notcing as I was fiddling with menus on my DVD player and trying some video games, that with pure white text (with no black border, just plain white text, regardless if background was dark or light), towards the right side of the screen, there was some red 'spill over' to the right of the text. A very bright, almost orangish red. So I pulled the SM back up, and adjusted the CADJ setting a few notches, and the red 'spill over' went away. Only now, anything onscreen that is red colored has spillover! Not quite the same though... it's still red, but it's not the bright white-orangish red, it's a transparent red with maybe the slightest green tinge to it (like moving the tint slider towards the green). Like a red 'shadow'. It spills over in the same direction, to the right. I fiddled and fiddled but could NOT find a setting with CADJ that completely got rid of both kinds of spillover. So I settled on setting it 'right in the middle'.

The funnier thing is it's happening worse on one side... but only partially! What I mean is... okay if I adjust it so that the white text has the bright orange-red spillover, then THAT will only be noticeable on the right side of the screen. But if I adjust it so that there's the faint red "shadow" spillover but the whites are 'clean', then that will be noticeable on any red object anywhere on the screen.

So I tried adjusting CADJ to where there were no red 'shadows', but I had the spillover on the white text. Then I adjusted the D-Conv settings that only affect the right side and corners of the screen, to get rid of the white spillover... but same thing. I can not get rid of the one w/o increasing the other. So it seems like, at least on the right side of the screen (maybe 1/4's worth from the edge), I have to settle for some bad horizontal convergence in one form or another. Or do I? Is there something I'm missing?

EDIT: one thing I forgot about, before I adjusted the CADJ settings, when I had the bright red spillover to the right on white text on the right side of the screen, I also had dim blue spillover to the left of white text on the left side of the screen. After tweaking CADJ BOTH problems cleared up, but again... then I had the red shadow to the right of red objects...

Just thought I'd mention that now that I remembered.

corlay

08-10-06, 11:53 AM

HSIZ, as RWetmore has said. But I thought I'd mention: Where there are some vertical scaling adjustments for different video modes, the horizintal one is global. For example, there is no way to adjust one of the Zoom modes in width without disturbing the normal width setting.

I wanted to do this so 4:3 broadcast on HD could be proportioned to fit my big 4:3 screen if I choose the Zoom mode. But I regret that this seems not possible. (Love to be proved wrong!) My set doesn't have a WideZoom mode, so if there is are specific settings for that, I can't confirm it.

Sets (like 30HS420) with Widezoom have the following settings in the SM,
that are specific to the 'Widezoom' screen mode:

2170-D1:
VLIN
VSCO
ZOOM
APSW
ASPT
SCRL
UVLN
LVLN

2170-D2:
HSIZ
HLIN
MPIN
PIN
PINO
UCP
LCP
PPHA

HSIZ being one, I assume there *is* a way to optomize this screen mode to proper overscan, etc.? Without affecting the other screen modes?

Does anyone have a tried-and-true process?

--
corlay

KenTech

08-10-06, 01:50 PM

Only now, anything onscreen that is red colored has spillover! Not quite the same though... it's still red, but it's not the bright white-orangish red, it's a transparent red with maybe the slightest green tinge to it (like moving the tint slider towards the green). Like a red 'shadow'. It spills over in the same direction, to the right. I fiddled and fiddled but could NOT find a setting with CADJ that completely got rid of both kinds of spillover. So I settled on setting it 'right in the middle'.This is not a good strategy because the "spillover" of red from red-colored objects has nothing to do with convergence! It is a consequence of red-color encoding for much of NTSC programming, more with broadcast, less with DVD, almost none for component video. Red has the lowest resolution of all colors, generally, and a bit of color "outside the lines" is par for the course. It is extreme on some SD broadcast TV, however. This is NOT true of digital TV.

You should evaluate convergence on standard material with your Color slider set all the way to zero so none of the other color defects distract you. All convergence problems can be seen with no color in the video, hence the white/gray crosshatch patters' usefulness.

KenTech

08-10-06, 02:07 PM

HSIZ being one, I assume there *is* a way to optomize this screen mode to proper overscan, etc.? Without affecting the other screen modes?

Does anyone have a tried-and-true process?I personally don't for WideZoom, but surely this is an easy experiment. (That's how I determined how hopeless my custom-zoom width attempt was on my 4:3 set!)

Suggestion: Write down your existing settings for HSIZ for WideZoom and Others. Put the TV into WideZoom mode, and change HSIZ's value significantly. Then switch back to a normal mode to see if horizontal size is the same visually, or if it too has changed. This will establish empirically the independence (or not) of the two modes' settings.

You may have to WRITE the settings for them to stick thru a mode change, but you have the former settings written down as backup, so don't worry.

ASPC and SCRL are the most useful parameters for tweaking the vertical size and position for several scan/zoom modes. Note that any parameter with a range listed as "0, 1" is only a switch that controls whether a feature or function is on or off and has no fine control.

bast525

08-10-06, 03:24 PM

KenTech - thank you AGAIN for some great info and clarification... you probably just saved me quite a bit of time that would have been spent on hopelessly fiddling with adjustments when I got home from work tonite :D Okay so the red spillover can't really be fixed in the way I was thinking, except for to upgrade to better video cables (my 'reference' was a video game being played on an Xbox thru S-video cables).

I MAY just reset all of the D-CONV settings back to factory and start over with the crosshatch pattern again, since I have a feeling I have 'tweaked' it badly since I was using the reference that I was, and that it probably really was perfect where I had had it.

KenTech - another question for you, what are your thoughts on the "THX Optimizer" which is a feature that is being included on a lot of DVD's these days. I noticed it first when I bought the DVD set of the original Star Wars trilogy (eps 4-6 I mean). I know it only covers the basics (color, tint, bright and contrast, and some basic geometry I think), but I was wondering if this would suit me well for just adjusting the color? It mentions on the THX website that you can either a) use a pair of their blue filter glasses or b) turn off the green and red guns on the set to make the color and tint adjustments, and I believe I CAN turn off the red and green guns on this XBR970 so I wouldn't even need to wait for a pair of the glasses to arrive in the mail.

Do you think the results would be good with this? I do want to get the DVE or Avia (leaning towards Avia since it SEEMS it would be more user friendly for a 'newbie' like me, BUT it's like 2-3x the price!), and will probably order one of them by the end of this weekend. But if I can use the THX optimizer to fix my color, tint, picture and bright, and my crosshatch for geometry and convergence, that's almost everything except grayscale and color temp taken care of.

I won't bother with the Optimizer though if you don't think the results would be 'true' or worth the trouble.

EDIT: correction, apparently the Optimizer feature does cover grayscale, convergence, and possibly even sharpness adjustments (newer versions, not sure if my Star Wars one has this).

gribble

08-10-06, 06:16 PM

Ken, I was adjusting the overscan on my KV-HS420, when I left the room briefly, and a guest (who knows better) had a mental lapse, AND TRIED TO CHANGE THE CHANNEL. Um sweetheart, there aren't any channels, just a DVD player.

It took three days of googling to find your forum, but you've saved me. Thank you.

I've got eyes good enough to identify the filmstock that was used, but not the competence to change anything other than geometry. Any thoughts on where I might start learning?

Ev01vEd

08-10-06, 11:51 PM

I am trying to get my overscan under 5 percent. However on the bottom, when I go below 5, the image gets distorted...

||||||||
/////////

Is there a way to straighten this out?

RM23J8G

08-11-06, 08:52 AM

gribble

08-11-06, 10:37 AM

[QUOTE=RM23J8G]
And what is the exact procedure for getting into and navigating the service menu?

If you bounce back to page 1 of the forum you can find pdf's 'n zips for download. Grab em all. There's something good in every one.

RM23J8G

08-11-06, 11:35 AM

Thanks....I just found them!
Great stuff here.....thanks Ken.

RWetmore

08-11-06, 12:18 PM

I just picked up the last XBR960 in Virginia at CC...unfortunately, an open box one.
This one has some fairly significant convergence issues, and also what appears to be a beam focus issue.
I'm new to the service menu and haven't gone in there yet. From reading here, it looks like the convergence issues might be fairly easy to address in the menu, but what about focus?
And what is the exact procedure for getting into and navigating the service menu? I guess most know the basics of that here, but it's all new to me. I'm very familiar with broadcast monitors and the theories of convergence and grayscale and all that, just not familiar with these Sony service menu adjustments.
thanks

YOu can try the focus adjustments in the service menu, especially overall focus (I believe QDPC), but the adjustments can only do so much. I just recently got a new 960, and and really lucked out with the focus - it's really excellent even at the edges. Prior to this, I owned the 30XS955, and the focus was not as good even after significant adjustments. This suggests to me that the how the focus is calibrated at manufacturing may be the most critical, so I would call out a service tech if the SM adjustments don't yield significant improvment.

bast525

08-11-06, 12:36 PM

Hey all. Okay, went home last night and tried using the THX Optimizer feature that is on the Star Wars DVD set I have. While pretty basic, it does cover the most obvious/critical bases pretty well, IMO. With test patterns for color, tint, bright, contrast, sharpness, convergence, grayscale, and geometry, I was able to go in and fine tune what I had already done and get the picture even better.

I found that my convergence adjustments weren't nearly as good as I had originally thought, and REALLY got down and tweaked them to near-perfection this time, much better than I had them, and the red bleeding issue is almost 100% gone now.

At any rate, for anyone who has one of the movies that comes with the THX Optimizer feature, I feel it's definately a great way to do a 'quick' tune up with only a small handful of the service menu settings and the regular user settings, and my picture now is MUCH and EASILY NOTICEABLY better than it was 'out of the box'. A good 'free' tool to use for anyone who has one of these movies, though I do plan on still buying Avia at some point for final fine tuning to get the colors 'perfect'.

The only issue I have left that is worth complaining about, and I'm hoping someone knows a fix for in the SM:

The bottom right corner of the screen has a gradually warmer color temperature. I got most of the screen to display, what seems to me to be a really pure white, but the bottom right corner still has a reddish tinge to it. I tried playing with a few settings in the color section of the SM and also with the Landing section, but found NOTHING that affected this.

gribble

08-11-06, 12:36 PM

I intend to slog my way through the whole forum from page one onwards but in the meantime, some keywords for searching would be a big help.

The only input my KV-34HS420 will ever get is widescreen DVD through the HDMI interface.

Changing HPOS confirms that I'm losing a significant amount of the picture at either end of the screen, and HSIZ only changes screen real estate, it doesn't give me any more of width available from the DVD output signal.

What should I be running searches for? Overscan and blanking were unproductive.

bast525

08-11-06, 02:33 PM

Changing HPOS confirms that I'm losing a significant amount of the picture at either end of the screen, and HSIZ only changes screen real estate, it doesn't give me any more of width available from the DVD output signal.

I don't know how relevant this will be or helpful if at all but I thought it worth mentioning. On my XBR 970 (widescreen HDTV), I noticed when I was using a test patter from the THX Optimizer (similiar to Avia etc.), with a rectangle frame to use for referencing how much overscan there was... If I adjusted HSIZ in full screen (16:9) mode, it actually changed the amount of the overscan and how much of the test pattern was being shown on the screen. But then I switched to 4:3 mode to do the same calibration, and I got the same results you are describing... instead of changing the area of the test pattern being displayed on the screen, HSIZ in this mode only affected the amount of the screen the 4:3 box took up. In other words, I COULD NOT adjust the amount of overscan or how much of the test pattern was actually being displayed while in 4:3 mode. I don't really use 4:3 much anymore so didn't look to see if maybe there was another section of settings with an alternate HSIZ or similiar that would correct this.

gribble

08-11-06, 03:44 PM

I don't know how relevant this will be or helpful if at all but I thought it worth mentioning.

Well, it adds to the mystery. My problem is in 16:9 full screen, HDMI input, where your HSIZ works fine. Sale of XBR tubes had been discontinued in Canada at the time I bought the set.

Dunno about 4:3. I don't go there either. The set has some blanking issues, I can only hope they didn't lock the hardware lest they become apparent. Been digging through the forum with no luck so far. Anybody have any ideas?

(At least I've figured out how to configure response posts correctly

gribble

08-11-06, 04:04 PM

[QUOTE=bast525]Does anyone know which setting, if any, can be used to fix this problem:

There is a slight uneven stretching of the image horizontally. I actually sat there with a measuring tape and measured a line of text on the left and right column (exact same text). I found that the text on the left hand side measured about 7", and the text on the right only 6.5". /QUOTE]
HCNT, right before HPOS and HSIZ changes position of the horizontal and alters the proportion of the two areas on either side. Try adjusting that a little to the left, then re-centering with HPOS.

I'm ready to bow to the expertise of the forum, but I didn't see a solution posted and it worked for me

gribble

08-11-06, 05:21 PM

HCNT, right before HPOS and HSIZ changes position of the horizontal and alters the proportion of the two areas on either side. Try adjusting that a little to the left, then re-centering with HPOS.

Sorry, meant to say changes position of horizontal CENTER, The whole image shifts, but the adjustment is really for proportion between the two sides. Ten thumbs and blind today

RM23J8G

08-12-06, 07:26 AM

ptchristensen

08-12-06, 08:19 PM

truesper

08-13-06, 03:41 AM

Can anybody recommend service codes which might correct horizontal distortion in a 27" Wega flat-CRT? (27FS170)

The effect I see is that objects appear to bulge and ripple as they pass through the middle of the screen.

I've tinkered extensively with PAMP and UPIN/LPIN, but those don't seem to influence this region of the screen. It seems to be slight concavity along a vertical line in the middle of the screen, rather than a fisheye.

i.e.,
|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||

Visually, what I see is objects squeeze as they pass horizontally through the middle of the screen and bulge as they leave. It creates an unpleasant ripple. Vertical movement does not exhibit this flaw at all.

I'd be extremely grateful to hear some informed opinions about this. It's driving me crazy.

KenTech

08-13-06, 02:40 PM

I'm getting more familiar with the service menu now, and downloaded some of Ken's test signals onto cd to play in my dvd player.
They really don't look all that good through that process...lot's of artifacts... and I'd like to try the memory stick method. I got better looking test signals by recording them from an NTSC test signal generator into a dvd recorder for some reason.Those test patterns are constructed to display onscreen at 1:1 pixel ratio; nothing else will look correct on the fine-textured patterns.

The Frame buffer on my 36" 4:3 set is exactly 1080h X 1440w, and so many of the patterns are exactly that so the TV does NO rescaling. I can't confirm their value, but I also made some "16x9" patterns that are 1080h x 1920w, in case that is the right thing for widescreen-set owners.

If you simply record these patterns to DVD as stills or play them as jpegs from a CD, the DVD player crunches them to a different pixel ratio, likely 480h x 720w, and it may or may not give you square pixels: If circles aren't round, then it or you are overlooking the fact that DVD pixels have a 9:8, not square, aspect ratio.

The color-based patterns should work fine, but even my excellent Panasonic S97 doesn't handle jpeg-from-CD color very precisely. DVD stills are accurate, and the required rescaling doesn't hurt the colors at all. But you have to have DVD-authoring software to do it. I bought DVE and AVIA, and I don't much care to make any custom DVD with my own patterns.

The TV's manual describes the memory-stick basics. The reader module in the TV isn't especially fast, so you don't have to spend extra $$ on fast MS. It will read almost any form factor MS. I chose a couple 512K sticks on sale at Fry's -- Sony, but I don't think it matters.

You just have to buy a cheap memory-stick adapter for your USB port on your computer. $20 will get you an excellent multi-format (with also compact-flash, secure digital, etc) unit plus cable. This lets you treat the MS like an external disk drive.

Your computer should see the stick as a disk. Follow directions in the TV's manual to copy files onto the stick -- you have to follow a few simple rules. High-quality jpeg looks best. If you have a Mac, there are nuisance invisible "resource" files also generated on the stick that have to be deleted or they get in the way. (Path Finder software makes it easy.)

Hope this helps.

Why not use the internal test patterns..? Read #416, #420 and #428They're fine, as far as they go, but some are very clumsy to use, the color bars suck, and a valuable pattern may force you to evaluate only part of the screen, when what you need is a repeating pattern that occurs in different places on the screen. In other words, MS test patterns are limited only by your imagination and time, and the built-in patterns, while valuable, are extremely limited.

KenTech

08-13-06, 02:50 PM

Visually, what I see is objects squeeze as they pass horizontally through the middle of the screen and bulge as they leave. It creates an unpleasant ripple. Vertical movement does not exhibit this flaw at all.

I'd be extremely grateful to hear some informed opinions about this. It's driving me crazy.I see a mild effect like this, too, and big scenic pans in movies make it fairly obvious!

But the adjustments offered in service mode are fairly coarse: You can squeeze or stretch the screen a bit over a third, maybe a quarter, of its width, but those narrow defects are a mystery to me. It could have to do with the cast-glass tube, a deflection-yoke anomaly, or some badly-placed magnets on the back of the tube -- who knows. Mine occurs in alignment with a slight cyan color shift just left of center, and I know ther is a "nest" of magnets (like cockroaches - I've seen 'em!) on the tube-back there. I'm trying ot get up the nerve to open the set and fiddle, but I haven't yet. I don't know what "problem" the magnets' placement was meant to solve in the first place.

If it is an electrical issue, I can't begin to guess what would cause a "glitch" in the huge sawtooth-shaped deflection current required in the deflection yoke to linearly sweep the beam with so little error.

truesper

08-13-06, 05:28 PM

I see a mild effect like this, too, and big scenic pans in movies make it fairly obvious!

But the adjustments offered in service mode are fairly coarse: You can squeeze or stretch the screen a bit over a third, maybe a quarter, of its width, but those narrow defects are a mystery to me. It could have to do with the cast-glass tube, a deflection-yoke anomaly, or some badly-placed magnets on the back of the tube -- who knows. Mine occurs in alignment with a slight cyan color shift just left of center, and I know ther is a "nest" of magnets (like cockroaches - I've seen 'em!) on the tube-back there. I'm trying ot get up the nerve to open the set and fiddle, but I haven't yet. I don't know what "problem" the magnets' placement was meant to solve in the first place.

If it is an electrical issue, I can't begin to guess what would cause a "glitch" in the huge sawtooth-shaped deflection current required in the deflection yoke to linearly sweep the beam with so little error.

Somebody suggested to me that it may be a horizontal linearity issue. Tweaking SLIN (stretch linearity) and/or HCNT (centering/linearity) was a suggested resolution, but this 27FS170 doesn't have those adjustments.

I'm planning to check out the 24FS120 at a store to see if it has the same problem. If I can't find a Wega model free of this defect, I'll have to go for some inferior brand (cry). Curved tube TVs have lots of distortion around the edges, but at least it's not right in the middle of the picture!

KenTech

08-13-06, 05:47 PM

Somebody suggested to me that it may be a horizontal linearity issue. Tweaking SLIN (stretch linearity) and/or HCNT (centering/linearity) was a suggested resolution, but this 27FS170 doesn't have those adjustments.It is an h-linearity issue by definition: Any glitch in the smoothness of a horizintal pan indicates a departure from linearity in the sweep current. But the two adjustments you mention are really much too coarse to affect it. SLIN operates over the middle third of the screen, like this:

oooooSSSSSooooo

Looks like what you need is this:

oooooooSooooooo

truesper

08-13-06, 10:05 PM

It is an h-linearity issue by definition: Any glitch in the smoothness of a horizintal pan indicates a departure from linearity in the sweep current. But the two adjustments you mention are really much too coarse to affect it. SLIN operates over the middle third of the screen, like this:

oooooSSSSSooooo

Looks like what you need is this:

oooooooSooooooo

I'm surprised not to see more people complaining about this. I've seen the effect in every Sony TV I've looked at so far (32FS170, 27FS170, 34XBR970).

I thought I was going nuts or just too picky, but it's SO obvious every time the screen pans sideways. My old 20" fishbowl tv wasn't exactly the height of geometric correctness, but at least the distortion was at the edges rather than the center of the screen like this.

truesper

08-13-06, 10:22 PM

They're fine, as far as they go, but some are very clumsy to use, the color bars suck, and a valuable pattern may force you to evaluate only part of the screen, when what you need is a repeating pattern that occurs in different places on the screen. In other words, MS test patterns are limited only by your imagination and time, and the built-in patterns, while valuable, are extremely limited.

By the way, I found XBMC's picture viewer to be pretty good for displaying test patterns. It's a homebrew multimedia application that runs on a (mod-chipped) xbox game console. It's convenient because you can browse images over the network. You can also zoom/pan around on them which is useful for detecting some anomalies that are hard to see in a static image (such as the problem I've been complaining about).

bast525

08-14-06, 10:37 AM

The effect I see is that objects appear to bulge and ripple as they pass through the middle of the screen.

I've tinkered extensively with PAMP and UPIN/LPIN, but those don't seem to influence this region of the screen. It seems to be slight concavity along a vertical line in the middle of the screen, rather than a fisheye.

i.e.,
|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||)(|||||||||||||||||

Visually, what I see is objects squeeze as they pass horizontally through the middle of the screen and bulge as they leave. It creates an unpleasant ripple. Vertical movement does not exhibit this flaw at all.

I'd be extremely grateful to hear some informed opinions about this. It's driving me crazy.

This is EXACTLY what is going on with my XBR970 as well! This is the problem I was trying to explain in the last paragraph of my post #1891, you described it a bit better than I, though :) . It seems to affect a larger portion of my screen though, almost 1/4 of the screen is noticeably 'pinched' in the center. I WAS able to use a combination of HCNT and SLIN to improve it a little, and also to fix the 'off center' nature of the stretching that I described a few posts back as well (one side stretched noticably more than the other). Now the screen is equally stretched to either side.

This concave center problem is VERY annoying though, as far as how anything moving horizontally across the screen bulges when at the sides and then squeeeezes as it passes thru the center. It makes it impossible to get a perfectly round circle when using the circle/grid test pattern. I have tried every setting in the SM that has any effect on geometry and have not found one that was able to fix this issue.

I was just about to call a Sony service place today and see if they'd send someone out to fix it, but hearing how many others are having the same problem, I wonder if it CAN be fixed. Hopefully someone here can figure out a setting or combination of settings that can fix this.

On another note, I picked up Avia on Friday and went thru all my settings again. I was already VERRRRY close or spot on with most of them. The THX Optimizer does cover many of the same bases and will get you like 80-90% of the results that Avia will as far as the picture adjustment goes (especially if you get the proper blue filter or glasses from THX, which I hadn't had when I used it hence why Avia did help me zero in on a few of the color adjustments). Avia does have a lot more advanced stuff that seems great but also seems like a lot of people wouldn't ever use it. I would suggest that anyone who has a DVD with the Optimizer on it already do a run thru with that and see if the results are satisfying enough before going out and plunking down $50 for Avia. All that said, I am glad that I bought it and even though the store I bought it from has an open return policy I will hold onto it anyways, as it has a lot of useful info on there that did make it worth the purchase price for me.

About the contrast adjustment on Avia though... I found that as some other people have commented, the test for adjusting contrast is kind of vague and I"m not sure the setting I arrived at is the 'optimal' setting. Even at the highest setting the white square never bloomed (seems newer TV's don't tend to do this). I just turned it down to where I thought the white area still looked white and not gray but w/o a reference I feel like I'm just 'guessing' even if I am close.

KenTech - did a service guy ever pay you a visit? Did you get any results?

EDIT: question, is there an agreed upon 'ideal' amount of overscan to shoot for? Seems the Avia DVD favors 5% overscan since many of it's geometry correction patterns have corner and side markers all placed at 5%. So that's where I adjusted to... just wondering what everyone else does.

LeRoyK

08-14-06, 12:57 PM

bast525:

Contrast setting with Avia. The screen has some grey boxes toped by white on the upper half and a white section on the lower half. There is a line on either side to help you as well (needle pulse pattern).

For these sets, raise the Picture control until the lines on either side start to bend, they should be straight. Any Picture setting with bent lines is too high, back off until the lines are straight up and down. Your set may allow Picture to go all the way up without bending the lines, mine did not.

Now get right up in front of your set and look closely at the top portion of the screen. You are looking at the area between scan lines on the gray boxes. The size of the area between scan lines on the white box should be no smaller than the size of the area between scan lines of the grey boxes below it. This is not a ruler kind of measurement, but your eye will be good enough. If the Picture level is too high, the area between scan lines of the top two boxes will be reduced and possibly be missing.

The setting you come up with will probably be a whole lot lower than Sony's defaults and may take some getting used to. But the upside is that your display will be able to show you all of the signal without distortion.

I will leave the other questions to those better informed members of the forum.

Good luck

bast525

08-14-06, 03:14 PM

LeRoyK - I tried going by that method but apparently the power supply on my TV sucks! The tutorial says the power supply of the TV is very important in the 'bending lines' portion of the contrast setting test pattern, and that a weak power supply can result in the lines bending easily.

On my TV, I had to set the contrast VERY low to get the lines to stay straight (it was at about 30, and the scales on this TV's menu go from 0-100), low enough that the white box and section of the screen were definately NOT white anymore, but a medium shade of gray.

I will try using your example as far as looking at the areas between the scanlines, to try to get a more correct setting. I will say that even with these issues I did end up setting the contrast quite a bit lower than the factory setting, and the image is dark enough that me and my wife both complained a bit but know we'll get used to it :D

Honestly I'm a whole lot less concerned about the picture distortion than I am about the idea of drastically shortening the life of this awesome set with too-high contrast!

truesper

08-14-06, 03:28 PM

LeRoyK - I tried going by that method but apparently the power supply on my TV sucks! The tutorial says the power supply of the TV is very important in the 'bending lines' portion of the contrast setting test pattern, and that a weak power supply can result in the lines bending easily.

This issue will cause the image to "bounce", right? I noticed it when moving between menu items in XBMC. An large illustrative graphic fades to black as a transition effect between them and I noticed the whole screen bending surprisingly each time.

I wondered if the quality of the wall-power would contribute to the issue, but it didn't really bother me that much.

Honestly I'm a whole lot less concerned about the picture distortion than I am about the idea of drastically shortening the life of this awesome set with too-high contrast!

On the other hand, would you prefer a beautiful picture you thoroughly enjoy for 5 years, or a marginally degraded dark one you have to live with for 7 years?:)

bast525

08-14-06, 03:55 PM

On the other hand, would you prefer a beautiful picture you thoroughly enjoy for 5 years, or a marginally degraded dark one you have to live with for 7 years?:)

that's a good question... part of me says just let it be brighter since it's definately more enjoyable that way, honestly I was ready to move up to a plasma or LCD TV anyways but they weren't quite ready for ME yet... still too many little issues that made me decide one more generation of CRT was the way to go. If I get a good 3-5 years out of this set I HOPE that will be enough time that LCD will have really fixed the last few issues that I dislike about them (mostly, the response time which causes some fast moving scenes to blur... even a Samsung I tried that claimed 8ms response time had noticeable blur which I couldn't stand).

I'll try as LeRoyK suggested about looking at the space between scanlines. About the wall power being a factor in the bending lines, I don't doubt it... I have reason to believe the power thruought my apartment is kinda taxed by things like the TV and air conditioner. I figured I wouldn't sweat it either way since I dont really know anything I can do whether it's the wall power or the TV's power supply.

truesper

08-14-06, 04:15 PM

I'll try as LeRoyK suggested about looking at the space between scanlines. About the wall power being a factor in the bending lines, I don't doubt it... I have reason to believe the power thruought my apartment is kinda taxed by things like the TV and air conditioner. I figured I wouldn't sweat it either way since I dont really know anything I can do whether it's the wall power or the TV's power supply.

Maybe I'll steal the ups from my server PC and see whether it makes any difference before I return my set. It does some amount of power-massaging, although I'm not familiar enough with the physics to know whether it would influence the picture.

darcon_adonis

08-15-06, 12:21 AM

Hey! I'm having a slight problem with my set, although it seems to be a common problem with all tube-type TV's.

You know when you have a primarily black screen, and then there is a spot of white displayed, and you can see where it creates a darker line of black across the whole screen? That is the issue I'm seeing with my TV (although not to the extent of regular TV's, but still noticable in certain conditions).

Is there any way to fix this, or do I have to deal with it?

Thanks!

PS - I guess its worth noting I have my set calibrated based on KenTech's settings and such.

It is as thick as whatever bright image is being displayed.

To clarify, the streak of darker black is going across the screen horizontally in both directions of say, a small white cube being displayed in the center of a black screen, and the streak is as thick as the hieght of the cube.

It's also worth noting that I can see this even if I don't use a source and have the TV's white interface appear in the upper corner, to rule out faulty cables or sources.

Bumping my issue again.

kinggroin

08-15-06, 10:02 AM

Bumping my issue again.

I have this same issue on both my Direct-view and RP crt sets.

I'd love to know why this occurs (it's pretty distracting). Could it have something to do with ANSI performance maybe?

bast525

08-15-06, 10:35 AM

well turns out I actually settled on the contrast being a bit too low, maybe.

I looked at the lines of pixels between the different shaded rectangles on the step bar, and adjusted the contrast up until I saw those lines start to smear and lose focus, then turned it back down a few notches. I ended up having the contrast set at 75 (from 0-100 range). At this setting, there is no visible distortion of the white box at any of the edges or between the white and the next step gray box. There is also no 'doming'. The needle pulse lines do bend a little but again, I can turn the contrast all the way down to like 20-30 before that goes away and at that point the picture is VERY dark and the white areas are definately gray, not white. Seems to work, the picture is still darker than I'm used to but I'm adjusting and it still looks really nice.

now if someone can figure out this issue some of us are having with the TV distorting in the center of the screen as described above?

williamtassone

08-15-06, 11:30 AM

truesper

08-15-06, 11:55 AM

bast525

08-15-06, 12:13 PM

heh yeah I think it was AKBO that scared the heck outta me too... TV flips out, screen goes all white and crazy then shuts off...

Only thing scarier was the prospect of telling my wife I just broke the TV we just bought for $1100.....

KenTech

08-15-06, 12:13 PM

" VON "

anyone know what this codes for in the service menu? I pressed it by accident on my xbr910 which turned off and flashed red. Unplugged from wall, replugged and it worked straight away.

I think the other code that turns off the Tv whilst in service mode was AKBO

Frightened the bejesus outta me! :eek:Hah! I did the AKBO one, too. It's a test of an internal safety feature that limits excessive CRT-cathode current (but I'll confirm later). Setting AKBO to "1" simulates an over-surrent condition, and the main power supply should shut down. (If it doesn't, the test has failed.) Scary, if you don't know what's happening.

It might be stressful for the TV, who knows. I absolutely avoid it.

I was unaware of "VON." But I'll check the info I have.

bast525

08-15-06, 03:10 PM

KenTech - I am currently holding out hope that if anyone, you would find/figure out how to fix this issue with this horizontal distortion I and others are seeing, as far as, things at the center of the screen being horizontal sqeezed inward, and then being horizontally stretched outward at the outer edges of the screen.

Very annoying!!! Seriously... if I can't get this issue fixed one way or another, I am strongly considering getting another TV. Not a great prospect considering this XBR970 was considered THE top of the line CRT that they had there at Circuit City when I bought it, and I wasn't too happy with the high end LCD TV I had taken home previously to (and exchanged for) the Sony.

I play a lot of older style video games, the old school 2-D side horizontally side scrolling kind, and this warping effect is PAINFULLY obvious.

I called one local Sony authorized warranty repair center and they said due to the size of the TV I would have to bring it to them... explain how THAT makes any sense!! I had to pay to have it delivered and don't have easy access to a large vehicle to get it to them. I'll be calling the only other local service center I can find later and see if they can't do any better.

williamtassone

08-15-06, 08:47 PM

williamtassone

08-16-06, 06:03 AM

This is what one european says AKBO codes for

http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=15966&forum=34

bast525

08-16-06, 10:17 AM

Hey all just thought I'd post some results I've been having with RYB/RYG/GYB/GYR.

Initially I tried KenTech's recomendation on my XBR970 of 14-14-6-4 which seemed a VAST improvement over the factory's 8-9-9-6 settings.

Then I picked up a copy of avia and readjusted them using the included color film strips and the color decoder test pattern and came up with needing to turn the red back up a bit, but green was left alone, new settings were 12-15-6-4. However, to MY eyes, yellows were now too green tinged and the reds were again just a little too strong.

Then someone clued me in on how to turn off the set's individual color guns, so I went back and did the adjustment this way (supposed to be a bit more accurate than using the film strips).

I figured out that setting the color using the 'flashing blocks' test in Avia and blue gun only, and then going on to the color decoder test, the blue always came up wrong. Which made no sense since looking at either test with blue only should be exactly the same, no? By the way this same thing happened using the color film strip as well. Odd. I tried adjusting BDRV, BCUT and GAMB and none of them fixed this issue. In the end I decided to work 'backwards', doing the color decoder adjustment first and THEN doing the flashing blocks test. I ended up turning the color setting on the regular user menu down a couple notches which made the blue right, then readjusting the RYB/RYG/GYB/GYR settings to bring them back to 0% as well. Now my color decoder test showed more or less perfect on all three colors. Went back and checked the flashing blocks test and now it showed perfect as well even with the lower color setting... problem solved! Oddly, my hue setting was never affected by any of this.

My new settings for RYB etc. are now at 13-15-7-5, and the image now looks perfect to me, no longer tinged too green, reds seem just right. The color decoder test on Avia shows all colors at 0% over or underdriven, and again the flashing blocks color and hue tests are zeroed in perfectly. And I... am one happy camper :D Oh, and I also made a few more geometry adjustments that improved the issue I was having with the horizontal linearity (not completely fixed though, just improved). The image on this set just keeps getting better :D

I'm putting the Avia disc away for awhile now, I think, and am just going to enjoy watching some TV :p

EDIT: by the way for anyone interested, my user menu settings are: picture - 70, bright - 48, color - 45, hue - R3, sharp - 35, color temp nuetral, VM off (and all VM settings in service menu OFF). All my service menu settings that effect color are left as the factory set them except for the RYB set. As a matter of fact, just about the ONLY SM settings I have adjusted at all are the RYB set, the VM settings, the focus settings, and settings to do with geometry. I know some would probably say my picture setting is too high but any lower than that and white starts not to look white anymore.

DuVal

08-16-06, 04:52 PM

bast525

08-16-06, 05:25 PM

There seems to be a problem downloading the attachments . I guess the administrator will have to take a look.

By the way. Im new to this post .Im the owner of an xbr910. THE TV WAS SERVICED maybe a year ago . The shop claimed they replaced the (B board).
Its was never the same.Geometry is off as well as brightness.Last month I came opon this post and website ,Downloaded the service codes and did some research . The default settings in the set, In many instances dont match the ones listed in the pdf download. So my Question is Should i go thru the entire list of codes And change the values to the ones in the pdf file or ,Do I have an authorized service center take a look at the set . Any input would be helpful!

Thanks !

The great thing about tweaking the settings in the service menu is that nothing you do is set in stone unless you purposely enter the key sequence to write it to memory (mute then enter).

So you are free to experiment til the cows come home. In your case, this means, yes, by all means, try the listed factory defaults from the pdf and see if that makes an improvement. If it makes things worse, just hit number 0 then enter to reset everything you changed back to how it was before you started tinkering.

You should also write down all the settings as they are set right now, just in case. That way you can always go back even if you write over something by accident or change your mind.

I found that Geometry was pretty easy to tweak... with a proper crosshatch pattern displayed, it's easy to see most geometry defects, and then go thru the service menu section handling geometry, try each setting one at a time, see how they affect the issue, and then make any changes that improve the situation. It took me several hours of tinkering spread over a few nights, but now I have a pretty decent understanding of what effect each of those settings has, and have made a huge improvement in the geometry of my TV. It was intimidating as hell when I first saw all the settings but now I'm glad I persisted. My set still isn't 100% perfect but it's MUCH, NOTICEABLY better than it was, even my wife easily notices it which is saying a lot!

KenTech

08-16-06, 05:40 PM

" VON "

anyone know what this codes for in the service menu? I pressed it by accident on my xbr910 which turned off and flashed red. Unplugged from wall, replugged and it worked straight away.Looking back to an older manual for the XBR2-series TVs, "VON" is described as "vertical-drive ON," i.e. it switches vertical deflection on or off. Our 2170D-5/#1-VON is marked as a temporary-only setting and is never memorized, defaulting to 1 (on).

I'm not surprised that the screen goes black! Remove the vertical deflection, and you are throwing all the electron flux that would be otherwise spread out over the whole screen into a single horizintal line. I'll bet it would burn the CRT in short order, and I'm guessing the turnoff is a wise protection.

KenTech

08-16-06, 05:59 PM

Hah! I did the AKBO one, too. It's a test of an internal safety feature that limits excessive CRT-cathode current (but I'll confirm later). Setting AKBO to "1" simulates an over-surrent condition, and the main power supply should shut down. (If it doesn't, the test has failed.) Scary, if you don't know what's happening.

It might be stressful for the TV, who knows. I absolutely avoid it.I looked into AKB in earlier manuals, and it looks like it refers to a system that detects a color-gun gross imbalance, as if one of the guns shorts out or something.

Quoting the 34XBR2 manual,

"White Balance Failure: If the RGB levels* do not balance within 2 seconds after the power is turned on, this error will be detected by IC201. TV will stay on, but there will be no picture.

*(Refers to the RGB levels of the AKB detection Ref pulse that detects 1K).

A fault condition is indicated by a 1, so I guess you cause this by setting AKBO to 1, and the set should shut down appropriately. Presumably the total-red flash before shutdown is that very "fault." It is likely a simulated fault, and the set's response is real. (Otherwise it wouldn't be much of a test.)

There are overcurrent and overvoltage protections, too (OVC and OVP), as well as h-stop and v-stop (loss of deflection). The VON shutoff is likely one of these.

EDIT: See the rather definitive statement on this, found by williamtrassone in an agoraquest.com forum, here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8228687&&#post8228687).

KenTech

08-16-06, 07:08 PM

Finally! I think I have put together a useful Table of Contents for this forum, so folks can browse it to find particular topics, and posters can lift URLs from it to point to items already discussed. I will update it periodically. I'm also posting a copy at the beginning of the forum, in message #1. I'll try to unify the article-numbering system and reconsider a bit of the formatting for clarity's sake.

What goes into it is obviously a matter of judgement, but please PM me with suggestions and especially errors. There were so many copy, paste, and drag opertions, there's gotta be some flubs. If anyone knows more formatting codes than the usual few (are they XML, HTML, or what?), please point me to a listing that might work, here.

KenTech

08-16-06, 07:09 PM

A TABLE OF CONTENTS FOR THIS FORUM
[Currently ends at message #1940, 16 Aug 2006]

Assume that any link below may be just the beginning of a subject, and that the discussion/responses may continue for many posts to follow. Please PM me with corrections and suggestions. Links are underlined. Attached-file links are indented.

Forum Pages 1-10 (30 messages per page), Posts #1-300

01 - INTRODUCTION ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5497242&&#post5497242)
- - hs420 service data chart.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36238)
- - XS955:XBR960 Service Data.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42233)
Excel Service-Codes Listing ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5497298&&#post5497298)
- - servicecodelisting.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36246)
02 - NAVIGATING SERVICE MODE ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5497408&&#post5497408)
- - servmodehelp.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36240)
03 - COLOR CALIBRATION AND BLACK LEVEL ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5497452&&#post5497452)
04 - ADJUSTING GAMMA ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5497493&&#post5497493)
05 - CUSTOMIZING PICTURE MODES ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5497510&&#post5497510)
06 - AUTO BRIGHTNESS LIMITING ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5497515&&#post5497515)
07 - DYNAMIC FOCUS ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5497529&&#post5497529)
- - servicecodeslist (34XBR910).pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36245)
- - convergencepage.pdf (HS420) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36249)
- - geometrypages.pdf (HS420) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36250)
RE: “Dead” on Startup + Fix ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5502161&&#post5502161)
08 - SOME USEFUL TEST PATTERNS ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5522634&&#post5522634)
- - converg_geom_test.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36402)
FOCUS TEST PATTERNS ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5522658&&#post5522658)
- - focus16by9.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36403)
- - focus4by3.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36404)
"SPOKES" TEST PATTERN ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5522678&&#post5522678)
- - spokes.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36405)
ADJACENT-COLOR TEST PATTERN ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5522682&&#post5522682)
- - adjacentcolors.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36406)
CURRENT-GAMMA TEST PATTERN ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5522689&&#post5522689)
- - curr_gamma_test.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36407)
09 - GETTING GOOD GRAYSCALE ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5530287&&#post5530287)
10 - "PRESETS" AND RELATED SERVICE CODES ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5530785&&#post5530785)
- - xs955|xbr960 geometry.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36477)
- - xs955 service data.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36480)
- - 34XBR960 service data.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=36481)
11 - IMPROVING THE AUDIO ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5627645&&#post5627645)
12 - OPTIMIZING IMAGE DECODING, "SHAPING," AND ENHANCEMENT ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5637661&&#post5637661)
- - Image_Processing_rev1_1.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42225)
- - image_optimizing-pats.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=37173)
4:3 and 16:9 Focus Test Patterns ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5648357&&#post5648357)
- - focusmatrix_4x3sparse.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=37174)
- - focusmatrix_16x9sparse.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=37175)
Convergence-geometry manual pages, XBR960+XS955:
- - xbr960_conv_geom_p1-6.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=37942)
- - xbr960_conv_geom_p7-10.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=37943)
Comments on convergence, LANDING settings ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5687363&&#post5687363)
Comments on colorimetry and the 6500K standard begin ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5741450&&#post5741450)
- - XS955|XBR960 Block Diagram.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=38581)
Ref. to Poynton etc. regarding Gamma ( http://www.poynton.com/notes/color/GammaFQA.html) and here ( http://www.w3.org/TR/PNG-GammaAppendix.html)
13.1 - PRECISION FOCUSING: ACCESSING THE INTERNAL FOCUS CONTROL ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5774400&&#post5774400)
- - Part1_Figures.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=38829)
13.2 - PRECISION FOCUSING: A RECOMMENDED PROCEDURE ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5774412&&#post5774412)
- - FocusMatrix_4x3_1080.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=38831)
- - FocusMatrix_16x9_1080.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=38840)
- - Part2_Figs_Patterns.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=38841)
Comment on balancing SBRT, Brightness, and the UBOF settings ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5800847&&#post5800847)
14 - A SERVICE-MODE BUG; THE DVE PLASTIC VIEWING FILTERS ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5851771&&#post5851771)
15 - THE COLOR OF BLACK: OTHER POSSIBLE COLOR ADJUSTMENTS ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5857455&&#post5857455)
The “set Color to Min” controversy & setting grayscale & offsets begins here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5879589&&#post5879589)
Color balance vs color “push” ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5906123&&#post5906123)
Judging color tints & pitfalls ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5918321&&#post5918321)

Forum Pages 11-20 #301-600

White screen and color “blobs” ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5927085&&#post5927085)
“White clipping” or brightness limiting as it applies to these TVs ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5929331&&#post5929331)
The “industry standards” diatribe ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5929655&&#post5929655)
More on intensity vs the CRT’s capabilities ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5934041&&#post5934041)
Dynamic Picture, Gamma, and the non-Pro modes ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5992974&&#post5992974)
- - The Excel Spreadsheet, “ADR” version ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=41552)
Reference to online copy of 34XBR2 service manual ( https://www.vancebaldwin.com/shop/research_new/SON/KD34XBR2.pdf)
- - The geometry pages from the above manual (PDF file) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=42213)
Intro to internal test patterns ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6166328&&#post6166328) and also here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6181230&&#post6181230)
Wrong method for adjusting overscan! ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6260514&&#post6260514) See this caution (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7909446&&#post7909446).
Setting black level for different inputs — again (long) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6280448&&#post6280448)
Geometry-adjustment & magnets, real-world experience ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6325690&&#post6325690)
Bad advice again on height & width adjustments in MID processor (DSperber) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6346890&&#post6346890). See this caution (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7909446&&#post7909446).

Forum Pages 21-30, #601-900

DSperber again on geometry ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6764404&&#post6764404)
KenTech: Refining the image; eliminating ringing & edge enhancement ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6916789&&#post6916789)
- - The referenced chart, latest version (IPChart06Tall.pdf) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=52616)
Comments on focusing the tube ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6917038&&#post6917038)
The service-codes charts, again ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6920824&&#post6920824)
- - 34XBR910 Service Menu vADR.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=50146)
- - XS955:XBR960 Service Data.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=50147)
Warning about warmup changes ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6921095&&#post6921095)
Discussion of MTRX (SD vs HD color matrices) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6947744&&#post6947744)
Nitewatchman starts his :) breathless posts ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6968302&&#post6968302)
Nitewatchman on MS color and MTRX “unpredictability” ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6982588&&#post6982588)
KenTech on MTRX & service-data charts ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6987713&&#post6987713)
“Coring” and “Limiting” in the image processing discussed here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6995036&&#post6995036) and here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7003329&&#post7003329)
Using the QM test patterns for color calibration ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7005314&&#post7005314)
Argument for DIY adjustment ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7026164&&#post7026164)
Centering the raster and the video frame ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7026367&&#post7026367)
Warning for fast-fingers on remote while in service mode ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7028963&&#post7028963)
HELPFUL NEW CHARTS ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7046048&&#post7046048)
- - GS&ColorCharts04.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=51546)

Forum Pages 31-40, #901-1200

Using a DVD frame for show-and-tell ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7050727&&#post7050727)
- - Sample frame from Monsters, Inc. ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=51550)
Cautions on color “correction” in CXA2171 processor ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7053093&&#post7053093)
A suggestion on using the Picture Modes for experimentation ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7067384&&#post7067384)
Observation on the characteristics of the SYSM settings in 2170P-3 ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7076359&&#post7076359)
Observation on the configuring of VM ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7077227&&#post7077227)
More image-processing parameters discussed here (ADU) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7085140&&#post7085140) and also here (ADU) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7090767&&#post7090767)
Image-processing as a “frequency-response” matter (several messages) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7097547&&#post7097547)
More on “sharpness” and how SM-settings affect it (Napoleon D) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7104252&&#post7104252)
The HDPT (high-def pass-thru) parameter — Is it dangerous? ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7111163&&#post7111163)
Recommendations for small “Warm” and “Cool” color offsets ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7138737&&#post7138737) and here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7139689&&#post7139689)
Article: The “Neglected” CXA-2103 Image Filters and Their Significant Effects on Image Quality ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7152546&&#post7152546) and this revision note ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7154835&&#post7154835)
New experiments with the 2103-1 parameters, SSMD and PPHA ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7158646&&#post7158646)
- - New Image-Processing Codes Chart: IPChart06tall.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=52616)
ADU: More on image-detail parameters ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7169411&&#post7169411)
A method of setting LANDING parameters ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7174280&&#post7174280)
Definitive Statement Regarding Phosphor "Lag" (Persistence) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7218267&&#post7218267)
Article: ”Tuning” the 2103 Processor for the Cleanest, Sharpest Picture ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7289196&&#post7289196)
Article: A New Approach to SYSM=3 Image Processing ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7289854&&#post7289854)
More on what MIDE is all about ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7307059&&#post7307059)
Minor Changes to SYSM=3 Recommendations and "Tuning" the 2103 Chip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7312545&&#post7312545)
Some clarification about VM (scan-velocity modulation) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7314307&&#post7314307)
SERVICE-MODE DOCUMENTS & CHARTS REPOST ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7326469&&#post7326469)
- - XS955|XBR960 conv_geom_p1-6.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=54145)
- - XS955|XBR960 conv_geom_p7-10.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=54146)
- - XS955|XBR960 Service Data.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=54147)

Forum Pages 41-50, #1201-1500

More on color and its decoding matrix ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7356776&&#post7356776)
BY REQUEST, A FEW CURRENT SETTINGS (KenTech) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7383118&&#post7383118)
A summary of the internal test patterns ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7393075&&#post7393075)
A source of convergence-correction magnets? (DSperber) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7438126&&#post7438126)
Service-mode AUDIO settings (and see subsequent posts) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7487516&&#post7487516) and also here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7506917&&#post7506917)
- - Also see conflicting data tables here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=56003)

Forum Pages 51-60, #1501-1800

Is the high voltage going to kill you? ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7691800&&#post7691800)
Green or pink blobs that come and go ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=531494&page=53&pp=30)
HDTV bit depth & standards (Nitewatchman) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7750251&&#post7750251)
Discussion of how Sony TVs scale the various video inputs (different forum) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7771984&&#post7771984)
Discussion of what the MID1-MID3 groups do ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7769977&&#post7769977)
RWetmore’s “discovery” about setting RDRV~BCUT very high & discussion ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7777559&&#post7777559)
Yet another discussion of white balance and the “need” for 6500K ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7802236&&#post7802236)
Restatement of Sony’s official centering-adjustment method ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7809189&&#post7809189) and here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7809400&&#post7809400)
KenTech’s firm position on the 6500K controversy ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7812096&&#post7812096)
- - Useful test pattern for photographing grayscale on-screen: Pluge + ExtremeGray.pdf ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=59034)
Comment on eyeballing grayscale adjustment and associated rationales ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7885933&&#post7885933)
Test pattern: TRIED-AND-TRUE SELF-REFERENCING GRAYSCALE CALIBRATION ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7890860&&#post7890860)
- - GSLinearityTest2.zip ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=59526)
Nitewatchman: Long commentary on his grayscale experiments ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7896040&&#post7896040)
Article: MEASURING SCREEN BRIGHTNESS WITH A PHOTO LIGHT METER ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7896419&&#post7896419)
- - Referenced graph for above article in ZIP ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=59578) and PDF ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=59579) formats
Discussion of whether the _CUT settings really affect black level begins ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7901998&&#post7901998)
(OT) KenTech rant about the (measured) low screen brightness in theaters ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7902217&&#post7902217)
Article: EQUIVALENCE OF VARIOUS BLACK-LEVEL ADJUSTMENTS, OFFSETS, AND COLOR CUTOFFS ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7909260&&#post7909260)
Caution about adjusting height in the MID1-3 groups ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7909446&&#post7909446)
Color-cutoff discussion, a question ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7911130&&#post7911130) and its resolution ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7914473&&#post7914473)
KenTech’s experiments with RWetmore’s high _CUT settings ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7921552&&#post7921552) and here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7925352&&#post7925352)
RWetmore’s satisfaction with his grayscale settings ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7929959&&#post7929959)
Using RGBS for isolating the red, green, and blue CRT guns ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7949944&&#post7949944)
The difference between the _DRV and _CUT settings and RYR~GYB ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7960708&&#post7960708)

Forum Pages 61-70, #1801-2100

An input-calibration method (Nitewatchman) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7991862&&#post7991862)
A question: What does 2170P-1/DCOL do (dynamic color)? ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8011625&&#post8011625) and a proposed answer ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8019120&&#post8019120).
Discussion of sidebar size, blanking, overscan ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8025344&&#post8025344)
Different experiences with color calibration, especially non-DVD ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7991862&&#post7991862)
A problem with vertical linearity and SD vs HD ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8056642&&#post8056642)
More on “dangerous” service-mode button combinations ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8060106&&#post8060106)
DVI, HDMI, black level, and bit depth ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8080306&&#post8080306)
Definitions of horizontal and vertical color convergence ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8173288&&#post8173288)
Using a Memory Stick for test patterns ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8200222&&#post8200222)
Success with color-decoder adjustment (bast525) ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8219327&&#post8219327)
What is VON and AKBO? They shut down my TV! ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8222723&&#post8222723) Plus a definitive statement here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8228687&&#post8228687)