I may be a day late and a dollar short on this...but have you all heard about the new Sony DVR?

The VGX-XL3 will have...HDTV record/playback, cablecard, Blu-Ray disc record/playback, and no fees.

The New Sony (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=cpu_digitallivingsystemh&ProductSKU=VGXXL3&Dept=computers&INT=sstyle-cpu_VAIODesktopComputers-deptfeature-VGXXL3|sstyle:sy_cat_content_p:cpu_vaiodesktopcomputers)

PLUS...the Sony rep says, ethernet connectivity to the program guide.

I'm gettin' one.

and at the low low price of $3299...


they will be flying off the shelves!

hdaddiction

That's an HTPC, not a DVR (yes, it has DVR functions, but any PC can be a DVR).

That's an HTPC, not a DVR (yes, it has DVR functions, but any PC can be a DVR).

Yes, and I would assume it will have the same problems as a PC...isn't it running on some Windows Vista Ultimate? Seems that Windows MCE isn't the best for someone that just wants to record shows.

I had a friend build a Linux MythTV box and because of all the reboot issues, programs being missed, etc., he decided to go with a TiVo...and this from someone who works in IT for a living.

So far, it looks like the only 4-digit menu code we aren't already aware of is 5678, which seems to do something... it results in the menu UI disappearing and the DVR going into a mode in which it does not respond to normal remote control functions until you press Exit on the remote. Might be some kind of debug mode? Some experiments to try, if anyone wishes to pursue this further: enter the 5678 code after booting up with a USB disk or flash device connected; see if there's anything new displayed on the composite, S-video or HDMI outputs; try further button sequences on the remote once in this mode... things along those lines. As far as I can tell, it isn't destructive to enter this code (guide/config/recordings were all unaffected).

Windows Vista. Not likely. Sony cannot even develop a web page that displays correctly in Firefox and they think we will buy their PC? Never mind the fact it uses a POC operating system from Microsoft.

...the TV Guide and Record List buttons will also take it out of "mode" and so does the power button. Tried rebooting w/USB devices, but any power off/recycle seems to take it our of mode and back to normal operation.

Is this the same one they show in the stores? I was wondering how the video was placed on the hard drive. I think the title is something like SXRD Demo...I want to turn mine on and watch it....let us know :D

Gigaguy knew the answer and shared the information with me right away. Thanks Gigaguy! It is an option under the 9012 menu. Push the MENU button and then SCREEN MODE button and then numbers 9012. There is a submenu item for Demo mode.

the previous QAM channels were not found

To answer my own question for anyone who may be interested, the location of the clear QAM channels have in deed changed.

The good news is that they are now where you would expect to find them OTA. So CBS is now at 2.1, instead of at 108.xxx.

The bad news is that I haven't picked up everything yet and reordering the guide is a hassle.

To answer my own question for anyone who may be interested, the location of the clear QAM channels have in deed changed.
My cable company plays that game every couple of months or so too. Sometimes they move them to a different location one month and a few months latter move them back to where they were.

I may be a day late and a dollar short on this...but have you all heard about the new Sony DVR?

The VGX-XL3 will have...HDTV record/playback, cablecard, Blu-Ray disc record/playback, and no fees.

The New Sony (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=cpu_digitallivingsystemh&ProductSKU=VGXXL3&Dept=computers&INT=sstyle-cpu_VAIODesktopComputers-deptfeature-VGXXL3|sstyle:sy_cat_content_p:cpu_vaiodesktopcomputers)

PLUS...the Sony rep says, ethernet connectivity to the program guide.

I'm gettin' one.

I looked at the specs, and it seems that it is cable only (no OTA). It states that it has a cable ATSC/NTSC tuner, no mention of OTA. It also states that it has only ONE RF input, so it you definitely cannot use OTA and cable at the same time. Still only one tuner (although there is one unused PCI slot). This seems like a step back from the DHG-HDD models.

Is this something that could be fixed through software/firmware updates on TV's if they aren't ready for the digital TVGOS
The answer is maybe. On HD ready TVs (the ones without ATSC tuners) the answer is likely no. On HDTVs (with ATSC tuners) the answer is that it likely could be done (via the service port) but the question is will the TV vendors provide an ungrade and how would it be done ($100 service call)? Most vendors would rather sell you a new set than upgrade the one you have.

The USB drive is a very good idea for devices that have an USB port like our Sony DVRs (a lot of TVs don't). There is no reason why a file couldn't be written, put on the internet, downloaded to our PCs and put on a portable USB device (like a thumb drive) and used to upgrade our equipment. The question is will Sony do that for the digital version of TVGOS? I hope so, but, from talking to Sony I don't feel that, as of now, they are planning an upgrade. Maybe, NOW is the time to start bugging Sony about that. Feb. 17, 2009 isn't that far away and I sure hate to see my DHG become a very expensive boat anchor in two years.

I looked at the specs, and it seems that it is cable only (no OTA). It states that it has a cable ATSC/NTSC tuner, no mention of OTA. It also states that it has only ONE RF input, so it you definitely cannot use OTA and cable at the same time. Still only one tuner (although there is one unused PCI slot). This seems like a step back from the DHG-HDD models.

Isn't an ATSC tuner a digital OTA tuner?? (And NTSC can be both a cable and OTA analog tuner).

Isn't an ATSC tuner a digital OTA tuner?? (And NTSC can be both a cable and OTA analog tuner).

Yes and yes

Isn't an ATSC tuner a digital OTA tuner?? (And NTSC can be both a cable and OTA analog tuner).

I think ATSC is a digital tuner, whether it comes from an antenna or (non-digital) cable.

I think ATSC is a digital tuner, whether it comes from an antenna or (non-digital) cable.

No, a non-digital channel will not tune on an ATSC (or QAM) tuner.

ATSC is digital OTA only (some units have both NTSC and ATSC)
QAM is for digital cable unencrypted signals only
NTSC is analog OTA and analog cable

I know this discussion died off a few days ago, but here's my two cents. I assume the TVGOS content is created on a PC with some special software. Somewhere along the broadcast line, the TVGOS content must be turned into VBI info that can be caried on an analog channel. I imagine TVGOS/Gemstar does this, but it may be done by the host channels, not sure.

If they start sending a similar digital signal over digital channels, it's not crazy to think that a hardware solution could be created to receive this digital signal and convert it to VBI info and then send it out analog on some sort of modulator. Just remember, right now TVGOS content is being converted from the format its created as to VBI info by some kind of hardware/software device (that is probably very expensive).

The question is, can Gemstar make this solution both affordable and profitable. And, more importantly, do they care? :cool:

...If they start sending a similar digital signal over digital channels, it's not crazy to think that a hardware solution could be created to receive this digital signal and convert it to VBI info and then send it out analog on some sort of modulator. Just remember, right now TVGOS content is being converted from the format its created as to VBI info by some kind of hardware/software device (that is probably very expensive).
The question is, can Gemstar make this solution both affordable and profitable. And, more importantly, do they care? :cool:Review the pdf attached to this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8956975&&#post8956975). A solution like that is possible, even trivial. And apparently *unofficial* spin on the topic?

Will anyone spend 99 cents to add that capability to some $89 subsidized conversion box, which would need to be left on tuned to a single channel, simply for outdated orphaned (disposable) consumer electronics? I highly doubt it. Most analog TVs would just use listings/clock native to the new converter box itself, and not mess with VBI listings for analog channels that no longer exist or need to be tuned, OTA or cable.

Very few of the analog VBI *dependent* items left behind are rendered as debilitated as the DHG-HDDs, with apparently no clock set. It's slightly less unlikely some converter box may add VBI clock to the analog modulation.

I suspect it's all just spin for the time being, to help move existing (analog dependent) product remaining on the shelves. Once that product is gone why would they care any longer? There's just not enough of us to really matter. Sony certainly washed their hands of the whole thing when they rather suddenly liquidated most of the inventory of DHG-HDDs for a fraction of invoice, once they got a firm date for analog cutoff.

We can hope for the best, but lets be realistic.

I know this discussion died off a few days ago, but here's my two cents. I assume the TVGOS content is created on a PC with some special software. Somewhere along the broadcast line, the TVGOS content must be turned into VBI info that can be caried on an analog channel. I imagine TVGOS/Gemstar does this, but it may be done by the host channels, not sure.

If they start sending a similar digital signal over digital channels, it's not crazy to think that a hardware solution could be created to receive this digital signal and convert it to VBI info and then send it out analog on some sort of modulator. Just remember, right now TVGOS content is being converted from the format its created as to VBI info by some kind of hardware/software device (that is probably very expensive).

The question is, can Gemstar make this solution both affordable and profitable. And, more importantly, do they care? :cool:
oh god, we're all screwed!
:eek:

If they start sending a similar digital signal over digital channels, it's not crazy to think that a hardware solution could be created to receive this digital signal and convert it to VBI info and then send it out analog on some sort of modulator.This is esentially what Gemstar is (claiming to be) trying to get into the specifications for the legacy converter boxes, so that all the converter box makers will impliment it. Don't know how much that would impact the cost of the box, probably not much.

I may be a day late and a dollar short on this...but have you all heard about the new Sony DVR?

The VGX-XL3 will have...HDTV record/playback, cablecard, Blu-Ray disc record/playback, and no fees.

The New Sony (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?CategoryName=cpu_digitallivingsystemh&ProductSKU=VGXXL3&Dept=computers&INT=sstyle-cpu_VAIODesktopComputers-deptfeature-VGXXL3|sstyle:sy_cat_content_p:cpu_vaiodesktopcomputers)

PLUS...the Sony rep says, ethernet connectivity to the program guide.

I'm gettin' one.

That's not a DVR. It's a computer. Sony does have a pair of DHG-HDDXXX replacements but they are only available in Japan. The BDZ-V7 and BDZ-V9 with Blu-Ray recording and 250GB and 500GB hard drives respectively. They even use the Japanese version of TVGOS. Very high-end but not as expensive as the VAIO. LINK (http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/BD/product/style.html)

That's not a DVR. It's a computer. Sony does have a pair of DHG-HDDXXX replacements but they are only available in Japan. The BDZ-V7 and BDZ-V9 with Blu-Ray recording and 250GB and 500GB hard drives respectively. They even use the Japanese version of TVGOS. Very high-end but not as expensive as the VAIO. LINK (http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/BD/product/style.html)
I really wish Sony would offer that DVR over here too. There really needs to be an alternative way to record OTA HD without having to use your computer, and without all of the DVR fee's. Currently there really is no way to record OTA HD without having to get cable, satellite, or pay the Tivo fee. If they were to market and price it right I think it would sell better then the previous model.

My feeling is that Sony should release a firmware update that allows us to manually set the clock and date. This would at least allow for manual recording of programs (VCR-style) after the analog shutoff.

This should be a very simple thing to implement with a firmware update. They could send out a small thumbdrive that you would return to them in a prepaid envelope. Mitsubishi does this with their TV firmware updates (with a compactflash card).

That would work, they wouldn't bother with returns, not worth the time and expense. The firmware updates that came on flash sticks for the early LCD TV turn off problems were not returnable. I think they were 64mb flash devices, you could reuse.

Live life (and not vicariously), stop watching so much TV! :rolleyes:

They should just give us software over the net and let us use the USB port. The old guard at Sony and Pioneer that does everything in hardware is very slow to give up their stupid old ways.

Look at HD-DVD connectivity is mandatory, what an inspiration!

I really wish Sony would offer that DVR over here too. There really needs to be an alternative way to record OTA HD without having to use your computer, and without all of the DVR fee's. Currently there really is no way to record OTA HD without having to get cable, satellite, or pay the Tivo fee. If they were to market and price it right I think it would sell better then the previous model.
If your tuner supports DTVLink or AVHD via 1394 you should be able to record without any fees (i should be getting a 160 GB 1394 drive in the mail any day, i'll let yah know how/if it works)

I am using a Digital Stream 3150 plus for a tuner for OTA with a roof-top antenna. I get very good reception. I have no cable or satellite service at this time. I am tempted to buy a HDD500 but am reluctant to do so if my reception will suffer.

I know there are no guarantees, but would like to hear some feedback from others before taking the plunge.

Thanks.

In reading these post, I get the feeling that VBI is not properly understood here as to what it is and what it is used for.
Michael

I am using a Digital Stream 3150 plus for a tuner for OTA with a roof-top antenna. I get very good reception. I have no cable or satellite service at this time. I am tempted to buy a HDD500 but am reluctant to do so if my reception will suffer.

I know there are no guarantees, but would like to hear some feedback from others before taking the plunge.

Thanks.

How far are you from the towers? What is the terrain like in between. I am about 18 miles from the nearest towers and with an attic mounted $50 RCA antenna, I get the same reception for both my 7 month old TV and the Sony HD DVR's. I find their tuners are very good and I can even pick up some stations 60 miles away consistently with no problems.

How far are you from the towers? What is the terrain like in between. I am about 18 miles from the nearest towers and with an attic mounted $50 RCA antenna, I get the same reception for both my 7 month old TV and the Sony HD DVR's. I find their tuners are very good and I can even pick up some stations 60 miles away consistently with no problems.
I have a Radio Shack #15-2160 antenna and use it for OTA digital only. I am about 15 miles from most towers and have pretty good line of sight. Most of the locals here have multiple sub channels so I get 25+ stations. My tv is a Sony CRT #KV-30HS420 it doesn't have a digital tuner so that is why the tuner in the DHG-HDDxxx is so critical for me.

Thanks,
Rob

In reading these post, I get the feeling that VBI is not properly understood here as to what it is and what it is used for.
Michael
Exactly. So do you know what it is and what it is used for? And no one can seem to answer my question of why can't VBI be broadcasted over a digital channel?? :confused:

If your tuner supports DTVLink or AVHD via 1394 you should be able to record without any fees (i should be getting a 160 GB 1394 drive in the mail any day, i'll let yah know how/if it works)

True, but I assume it uses TVGOS in the TV for the listings so you'd be back to the Feb 2009 issue assuming your TV gets this signal via analog means like most out there today....

I have a Radio Shack #15-2160 antenna and use it for OTA digital only. I am about 15 miles from most towers and have pretty good line of sight. Most of the locals here have multiple sub channels so I get 25+ stations. My tv is a Sony CRT #KV-30HS420 it doesn't have a digital tuner so that is why the tuner in the DHG-HDDxxx is so critical for me.

Thanks,
Rob

I am in a similar situation and even when I was using a cheap $20 powered antenna indoors next to the TV, I could get all my stations without anydrops (unless of course the station was having problems). So, I think you should be fine.

I can't tell any difference between the Sony tuner and my 7 month old TV's tuner when watching. They both come in consistently and hold a strong signal. I've been recording programs from it for 7 months with no problems. Just make sure that you can get your analog host channel (most of the time PBS) with a strong enough signal to get your TVGOS data.

Exactly. So do you know what it is and what it is used for? And no one can seem to answer my question of why can't VBI be broadcasted over a digital channel?? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_blanking_interval

http://www.answers.com/topic/vertical-blanking-interval

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci213677,00.html

I think the confusion be some people in the forum is as follows:

You need to distinguish between the vertical blanking interval (VBI) and VBI data. The vertical blanking interval is a common feature of all ANALOG broadcasts. In the links above, they refer to it as the last 45 lines of the 525 line frame. If you recall that normal TV resolution in the US is 480 lines, you can see that subtracting 45 from 525 gives you 480 lines. This is the visible part of the picture. The remaining 45 lines are NOT visible, and are thus available to embed other data like TVGOS data, closed caption info, XDS data (this is program information used by some TVs that will show you the name of the program that you are watching at the time - it is NOT the same as TVGOS data). VBI data can refer to ANY of these types of data. TVGOS data is just one subset of VBI data.

Digital broadcast are formatted in a completely different way. There simply is no Vertical Blanking Interval in a digital broadcast, so there is no way to embed the TVGOS info in the VBI. The idea of sending TVGOS data on a digital broadcast would require a different method of carrying the info. Since it can't be inserted in the VBI, it must be embedded differently. It is possible, but the receiving hardware must be capable of utilizing this new method. This is where we all feel that the Sony DHG's must need some sort of update to receive this information via the new delivery channel.

Does this help clarify at all?

Does this help clarify at all?
Yes it does, thank you. So could Sony enable it so we could get the TVGOS data over the ethernet port?

Yes it does, thank you. So could Sony enable it so we could get the TVGOS data over the ethernet port?

It doesn't have an ethernet port, but it has a USB port. Maybe an upgrade that allows you to use a USB to ethernet adapter could work, but the internal software would need to support networking. If I could plug it into my router with an ethernet cable, that would be cool! This is an unlikely scenario, because TVGOS would need to convert to an internet-based distribution model.

It doesn't have an ethernet port, but it has a USB port. Maybe an upgrade that allows you to use a USB to ethernet adapter could work, but the internal software would need to support networking. If I could plug it into my router with an ethernet cable, that would be cool! This is an unlikely scenario, because TVGOS would need to convert to an internet-based distribution model.

There are some Ethernet Bridges on the market that
let USB ports connect to an Ethernet without needing
any networking support.

But it would still take some internal support to get the
guide over the USB port.

It doesn't have an ethernet port, but it has a USB port. Maybe an upgrade that allows you to use a USB to ethernet adapter could work, but the internal software would need to support networking. If I could plug it into my router with an ethernet cable, that would be cool! This is an unlikely scenario, because TVGOS would need to convert to an internet-based distribution model.

Yes, all that is possible but I think that we need to look at the "bottom line". The DHG models are discontinued and I seriously doubt that Sony will devote the resources required to do ANY software upgrades that would extend the life of this product line. Honestly, I hope that I am wrong and that they will continue to support this line after 2009 but, after writing and talking to many Sony people, I really don't have great hope that it will happen.

Yes, all that is possible but I think that we need to look at the "bottom line". The DHG models are discontinued and I seriously doubt that Sony will devote the resources required to do ANY software upgrades that would extend the life of this product line. Honestly, I hope that I am wrong and that they will continue to support this line after 2009 but, after writing and talking to many Sony people, I really don't have great hope that it will happen.

I can be sure SONY will do NOTHING - even if they were NOT Discontinued.

Sony's Policy is a NEW MODEL for Consumers to buy.

Never Update Anything in the field.

wait, so we're F*d with these units in terms of recording b/c of no TVGOS after the analog shut-off? They should allow USB implementation -- TitanTV programming guide sent via USB thumbdrive.

I have the 500GB version and I love it. I guess after 2 years the HDD may deteriorate, but its still a winning unit and I bought it with the intention of having it longer than 3 years...

so here's a related question...

I have 2 receiver/DVR units. One is the Sony, bought in 2006 with a 4-year warranty from BB, and the other is an LG 3410-a, bought in 2005 with a 5-year warranty from CC.

These use different versions of the tv guide, but - in any case - any opinions about whether the warranties will be honored if they stop working because the guide is no longer broadcast?

I think the warranties say that if the unit stops working, and is no longer available, it can be replaced with a comparable unit...

so here's a related question...

. . . any opinions about whether the warranties will be honored if they stop working because the guide is no longer broadcast?

I think the warranties say that if the unit stops working, and is no longer available, it can be replaced with a comparable unit...


If your car stops working because you can no longer get gasoline will the warranty cover that?

Leaving guide data out of it for a moment to concentrate on setting the clock, what about a signal generator that will output a VHF/NTSC test signal which includes the auto clock set. I assume our Sony HDDs use the same auto clock set signal that all those zillions of vcrs do?

Is auto clock set a gemstar controlled thing?

I searched around a bit and couldn't find anything, but I'm not the best searcher in the world.

If your car stops working because you can no longer get gasoline will the warranty cover that?It's not gasoline. They *receive* ATSC/QAM. And there'll be plenty of that available in 2009.

It's more like if the alternator fails to charge the battery and you can't start the car. Plenty of gasoline. But it won't even turn over because of something with the alternator/battery. Warranty *should* cover that, if it's defect or design flaw.

If your car stops working because you can no longer get gasoline will the warranty cover that?
I'm pretty sure that if the car company knew there wouldn't be any gas stations in a few years there would/could be a pretty good legal case against them!

so here's a related question...

I have 2 receiver/DVR units. One is the Sony, bought in 2006 with a 4-year warranty from BB, and the other is an LG 3410-a, bought in 2005 with a 5-year warranty from CC.

These use different versions of the tv guide, but - in any case - any opinions about whether the warranties will be honored if they stop working because the guide is no longer broadcast?

I think the warranties say that if the unit stops working, and is no longer available, it can be replaced with a comparable unit...

If the clock will still be able to have the correct date / time (manually or otherwise), I would say that it is still fully functional. If the date / clock can't be set, be prepared to fight with your warranty company. What would they give as a replacement? One doesn't exist right now.

Leaving guide data out of it for a moment to concentrate on setting the clock, what about a signal generator that will output a VHF/NTSC test signal which includes the auto clock set. I assume our Sony HDDs use the same auto clock set signal that all those zillions of vcrs do?

Is auto clock set a gemstar controlled thing?

No, clock setting is not a Gemstar controled thing. The clock signal is in the VBI information on some ANALOG channels. MOST devices that use it also have a way to MANUALLY set the clock so that users will be able to set their clock after 2/17/09 (their tuners won't work for OTA channels though). Clock setting on DIGITAL channels is part of the PSIP information that ALL digital channels have (it is an FCC requirement).

Cable companies that are staying (at least partly) analog after 2/17/09 could add a clock signal (via VBI inserted information) but who knows if they will. The Gemstar (TV Guide) is a whole other issue. There will likely be MILLIONS of devices that currently use the TVGOS that will be SOL after 2/17/09. And the bad thing is that most of them have no idea that the end (of their TV Guide) is coming.

I'm pretty sure that if the car company knew there wouldn't be any gas stations in a few years there would/could be a pretty good legal case against them!


I can't imagine a warranty would cover these types of situations. It’s as if your local OTA station suddenly vanishes due to a large building being built between you and the transmitter. I mean, the unit still operates as designed but you have no signal. Why would Sony, CC or BB cover this.

I'm just going to enjoy mine while I can. Then I guess I'll put it where I put my BetaMax, my SuperVHS VCRs and my 8086 based computers when I was finished with them. :(

If the clock will still be able to have the correct date / time (manually or otherwise), I would say that it is still fully functional. If the date / clock can't be set, be prepared to fight with your warranty company. What would they give as a replacement? One doesn't exist right now.

I agree. That's why I said earlier that Sony should simply add a time/date setting feature with a software/firmware update. It won't solve the guide info, but it will at least allow for manual setting of recordings ("dumb" VCR style)...

I really enjoy the DHG-HDD250 but have one problem. Since the guide info is updated only during the daytime (local PBS shuts off the air after midnight) I ALWAYS lose guide info since there is always someone using it during the day(I have a second one and no problems with guide info since I only use it at night) and have a question in relations to the ability to get the guide info from my cable company. How do you know which channel to use on the cable company, can you call someone to figure this out? I know how to force this, but without the knowledge of where the guide comes from, it is difficult. FYI, it is cox cable in RI.

Thanks

I am using a Digital Stream 3150 plus for a tuner for OTA with a roof-top antenna. I get very good reception. I have no cable or satellite service at this time. I am tempted to buy a HDD500 but am reluctant to do so if my reception will suffer.

I know there are no guarantees, but would like to hear some feedback from others before taking the plunge.

Thanks.I have the Sony and the Radio Shack Accurian tuner, which is the same, exact tuner as the ProBrand (under a different name). I have found that the Accurian is ever-so-slightly better at holding a couple of channels, but they're basically pretty even. Actually, I think the Sony does a bit better on a couple of different channels. You probably wouldn't even notice much, if even any difference (and the Accurian/ProBrand is generally regarded as a good receiver). If you get "very good" reception with the ProBrand already, you shouldn't really lose anything with the Sony. The picture quality is better on the Sony, too, slightly with HD, but especially noticable with SD broadcasts.

At least that's been my experience, anyway. I would say "go for it" - I don't think you'll regret it. It's a really nice piece of equipment :).

If the clock will still be able to have the correct date / time (manually or otherwise), I would say that it is still fully functional. If the date / clock can't be set, be prepared to fight with your warranty company. What would they give as a replacement? One doesn't exist right now.

This unit (and the LG 3410a) were advertised as having listings a week in advance (with the ability to record by pushing a button), and that is a major basis for anyone purchasing the unit(s).

If that doesn't work, no one can say the unit is fully functional...just my opinion...

Cable companies that are staying (at least partly) analog after 2/17/09 could add a clock signal (via VBI inserted information) but who knows if they will.They already do - to a PBS station - they've been doing it for years, just as with OTA. And cable's most likely keeping analog around, so you'll still be able to get the time and guide info through them.

So it'll basically be a not-too-different situation to the way things are now with the cable/satellite companies - in order to fully use the DVR, you can either pay a monthly fee for limited basic cable OR you can pay up for the full price of the converter box all at once (assuming there is one).

this is a huge thread.

Is there a way I can "update" my HDD250? Its old school.

Version 1.2.13

They already do - to a PBS station - they've been doing it for years, just as with OTA. And cable's most likely keeping analog around, so you'll still be able to get the time and guide info through them.

So it'll basically be a not-too-different situation to the way things are now with the cable/satellite companies - in order to fully use the DVR, you can either pay a monthly fee for limited basic cable OR you can pay up for the full price of the converter box all at once (assuming there is one).

But is it really the cableco that is adding the clock signal to the channel, or is it the originating PBS station? If it is the PBS channel, the clock signal won't be present in the analog signal that is being sent to the cableco. This means that the cableco WILL need to do it themselves (if they are converting the digital broadcast from the PBS station to analog).

But is it really the cableco that is adding the clock signal to the channel, or is it the originating PBS station?Got me there. I wasn't even thinking of that. It should be easy enough to do, but like you said - will they? If it's just to help out people with TVGOS recorders, rather than those renting theirs, I guess I wouldn't expect much.

It is the PBS station that is providing the clock information (via VBI info within their signal). At the present time, no cable cable company ADDS VBI information to a station's signal. Some cable companies do strip the VBI information and when they do that it causes loss of the TV Guide and closed captioning.

this is a huge thread.

Is there a way I can "update" my HDD250? Its old school.

Version 1.2.13

If you're talking about updating the firmware you already have 1.2.13 and it's the latest from Sony for this unit.

As for hardware, no one has successfully upgraded to a new/larger HDD.

To add even more confusion to the VBI/program data issue, look up PSIP. This is the standard for program data over ATSC (but not QAM?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_and_System_Information_Protocol

To add even more confusion to the VBI/program data issue, look up PSIP. This is the standard for program data over ATSC (but not QAM?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program_and_System_Information_Protocol

Part of this may be present in QAM signals.

I have a TV with a QAM tuner, and it properly recognized a channel as "13.1" instead of its QAM assignment of 102-3 (or something like this). I assumed this was embedded like the PSIP data.

To add even more confusion to the VBI/program data issue, look up PSIP. This is the standard for program data over ATSC (but not QAM?).

The reason that it is not the "standard" for QAM (digital cable) is that cable companies re-map the digital channels to their own cable numbers and they provide their own (non-PSIP based) guide.

OTA Digital channels must provide PSIP data. It contains the mapping data to map the digital channel to its current analog channel number and the program information, including listings for at least a few hours (they can provide over a week of data but most don't). Cable companies strip that data out. PSIP data does contain a clock signal and, with a minor software upgrade, our Sony units could use it to set the clock but it would be a major upgrade to allow our units to use the OTA PSIP data to get the guide information.

Quick question for all you experts, I briefly unplugged my HDD250 last night in order to rearrange some stuff in my system. It was only unplugged for a few seconds, and when it came back up the time on the clock was off by about 40 minutes, which screwed up the things I had set to record (nothing important though.) I thought that maybe it would reset overnight, but it was still off this morning. Do I need to reset the unit, and if so how will that affect my channel lineup, guide, etc.

Thanks for any info, I'm at work now, so I won't be able to do anything about it until this evening, but I don't want to risk missing Heroes tonight.

I can't imagine a warranty would cover these types of situations. It’s as if your local OTA station suddenly vanishes due to a large building being built between you and the transmitter. I mean, the unit still operates as designed but you have no signal. Why would Sony, CC or BB cover this.

I'm just going to enjoy mine while I can. Then I guess I'll put it where I put my BetaMax, my SuperVHS VCRs and my 8086 based computers when I was finished with them. :(That "large building being built between you and the transmitter" would be a third party action over which Sony had no control....it would be your responsibility to move the unit to a location where the signal was available.

The question is does Sony have responsibility for inoperation of the unit where the signal no longer exists at all. One could make the argument that this is normal technology obsolescence and no different than the plight of 8-track tape decks, or BetaMax, etc., but those technologies went by the wayside due to market forces....something "better" came along and drove these products from the market. That is not the case with these Sony units. They are still being sold as new in stores, and to my knowledge, with no disclosure of the impending demise to unwary buyers.

Take computers, for example....the technology is continually evolving, and the new advancements bring with them enhanced or new capabilities, and the consumer is willing to set the old one aside for this added value. But what do you think would happen if people were buying brand new pc's today and subsequently learning that in a couple of years their OS would "magically" cease to operate and no replacement OS would be available?

Arguably, the pc maker in that case has a responsibility to the consumer, even if it had no knowledge or control over the availability of the OS. The pc maker and the OS provider have a de facto partnership arrangement....one cannot exist without the other, and IMO the consumer purchasing a new pc has a right to rely on both as one.

But going a step further, what if the pc maker knew in advance that the OS would cease to exist within the useful life of the equipment, and sold its pc's to customers anyway, deliberately or inadvertently hiding this information? Can you say, "f-r-a-u-d"?

Maybe that's a strong accusation, but that's what Sony has done, IMO. How many of you knew of this potential “fatal flaw” until you read about it in this forum? I can't say for sure if I'd have plunked down over $1500 (for my two units with EW) had this information been disclosed, but I'd have liked to have been given the choice, instead of feeling "fleeced" afterwards. For me, it's the equivalent of renting these units at over $500 per year. Looking at my purchase decision that way would have cast a different light on it.

Why was it in Sony's best interest to abruptly cease production of such a hot item? I don't know the answer but I'd say it had something to do with limiting exposure….fewer units out there, less liability. If you smelled a class-action suit coming, wouldn't you want to limit the potential adversaries?

If the world runs out of gasoline, the car maker has no responsibility….the limitations of fossil fuels are widely recognized….but when Sony designed and sold these units to work exclusively with TVGOS, I submit it entered into an implied agreement with it's customers that the service would be available over the useful life of the equipment. The proprietary knowledge available to Sony regarding the future availability of TVGOS is not available to consumers as a whole. If Sony produced this equipment ignorant of the future of TVGOS then they’re not as smart as I give them credit for, but nonetheless responsible.

If Sony had provided an alternate method of operation that made the equipment functional sans TVGOS, then they'd be off the hook, but they didn't. I don't know how long that life is supposed to be but I've got to believe it's more than a couple of years for a $1k device.

I do not believe Sony intends to upgrade these devices to make them operable after 2009....if that were the case I think they'd still be making and selling them.

How many owners of these units are out there....enough to force some action by Sony?

I'm moving and losing a lot of my OTA soon. Can the QAM tuner pick up the local HD channels via a Basic Cable service without a CableCard, or do I need a CableCard, or is this up to the individual cable company?

I'm moving and losing a lot of my OTA soon. Can the QAM tuner pick up the local HD channels via a Basic Cable service without a CableCard, or do I need a CableCard, or is this up to the individual cable company?

Yes it can, depending on the area you are moving to. Where I live, I get unencrypted HD locals on Charter. The only problem it that the CBS local is currently in a dispute over compensation with Charter and is not available on cable. The NBC HD affiliate is still MIA since Katrina. And the local Fox HD station is not available either on cable.

Good Luck . . .

Quick question for all you experts, I briefly unplugged my HDD250 last night in order to rearrange some stuff in my system. It was only unplugged for a few seconds, and when it came back up the time on the clock was off by about 40 minutes, which screwed up the things I had set to record (nothing important though.) I thought that maybe it would reset overnight, but it was still off this morning. Do I need to reset the unit, and if so how will that affect my channel lineup, guide, etc.

Thanks for any info, I'm at work now, so I won't be able to do anything about it until this evening, but I don't want to risk missing Heroes tonight.

I hate unplugging these. I wish there was a way to do it without everything having to reset. Sometimes mine comes back up pretty quick, sometimes it takes an entire reset up. Do the 9012 menu while on the VBI data channel, probably PBS. This usually sets my clock immediately.

I don't know about the rest of you, but for some odd reason, when I do the 9012 test on my host channel lately, it consistently fails. I am still getting guide data, though.

I haven't been using my HDD250 for a while, because it is in a location where I haven't been watching TV. I was hesitant to move it to my new upstairs TV room, since it was dependent on an OTA signal to get guide data, and I had no clean way to get my antenna feed to the new location. (I previously posted that my cable company started taking the digital OTA signal from my PBS station and was sending that out as analog - effectively killing the data path for the TVGOS data. This has since been resolved, since they have gone back to using the analog feed.)

I recently moved it to my upstairs TV, despite the fact that my Gemstar factory test was always failing. My guide data has started populating!

Maybe the G* Factory Test isn't a good indicator of your ability to get data anymore...

That "large building being built between you and the transmitter" would be a third party action over which Sony had no control....it would be your responsibility to move the unit to a location where the signal was available.

The question is does Sony have responsibility for inoperation of the unit where the signal no longer exists at all. One could make the argument that this is normal technology obsolescence and no different than the plight of 8-track tape decks, or BetaMax, etc., but those technologies went by the wayside due to market forces....something "better" came along and drove these products from the market. That is not the case with these Sony units. They are still being sold as new in stores, and to my knowledge, with no disclosure of the impending demise to unwary buyers.

Take computers, for example....the technology is continually evolving, and the new advancements bring with them enhanced or new capabilities, and the consumer is willing to set the old one aside for this added value. But what do you think would happen if people were buying brand new pc's today and subsequently learning that in a couple of years their OS would "magically" cease to operate and no replacement OS would be available?

Arguably, the pc maker in that case has a responsibility to the consumer, even if it had no knowledge or control over the availability of the OS. The pc maker and the OS provider have a de facto partnership arrangement....one cannot exist without the other, and IMO the consumer purchasing a new pc has a right to rely on both as one.

But going a step further, what if the pc maker knew in advance that the OS would cease to exist within the useful life of the equipment, and sold its pc's to customers anyway, deliberately or inadvertently hiding this information? Can you say, "f-r-a-u-d"?

Maybe that's a strong accusation, but that's what Sony has done, IMO. How many of you knew of this potential “fatal flaw” until you read about it in this forum? I can't say for sure if I'd have plunked down over $1500 (for my two units with EW) had this information been disclosed, but I'd have liked to have been given the choice, instead of feeling "fleeced" afterwards. For me, it's the equivalent of renting these units at over $500 per year. Looking at my purchase decision that way would have cast a different light on it.

Why was it in Sony's best interest to abruptly cease production of such a hot item? I don't know the answer but I'd say it had something to do with limiting exposure….fewer units out there, less liability. If you smelled a class-action suit coming, wouldn't you want to limit the potential adversaries?

If the world runs out of gasoline, the car maker has no responsibility….the limitations of fossil fuels are widely recognized….but when Sony designed and sold these units to work exclusively with TVGOS, I submit it entered into an implied agreement with it's customers that the service would be available over the useful life of the equipment. The proprietary knowledge available to Sony regarding the future availability of TVGOS is not available to consumers as a whole. If Sony produced this equipment ignorant of the future of TVGOS then they’re not as smart as I give them credit for, but nonetheless responsible.

If Sony had provided an alternate method of operation that made the equipment functional sans TVGOS, then they'd be off the hook, but they didn't. I don't know how long that life is supposed to be but I've got to believe it's more than a couple of years for a $1k device.

I do not believe Sony intends to upgrade these devices to make them operable after 2009....if that were the case I think they'd still be making and selling them.

How many owners of these units are out there....enough to force some action by Sony?I'd agree Sony needs some nudge for a work around on the clock set. They likely intend to do nothing, even going as far as asserting such a design flaw (where an item promoted as a Recorder will no longer record) isn't covered by the extended warranty.

My best guess is those who *insist* Sony should get a pass on this are those who got the liquidated DHG-HDD500 for $249, at a time when a 500 GB HDD was selling for more than that. And certainly for $249 it's not a bad quality dual input ATSC/QAM tuner.

My best guess is those who *insist* Sony should get a pass on this are those who got the liquidated DHG-HDD500 for $249, at a time when a 500 GB HDD was selling for more than that. And certainly for $249 it's not a bad quality dual input ATSC/QAM tuner.

Since I knew about this impending doom before I bought mine, I manged to get two HDD250's for $300 total...that way I at least will have an ATSC / QAM tuner for my home theater that will let you pause live TV.

Not sure what I'll do with the other one in 2009 since my TV has a built in ATSC / QAM tuner.

Since I knew about this impending doom before I bought mine, I manged to get two HDD250's for $300 total...that way I at least will have an ATSC / QAM tuner for my home theater that will let you pause live TV.

Not sure what I'll do with the other one since my TV has a build in ATSC / QAM tuner.

If you are interested in selling one of the HDD250's, I would like a shot at it. I'm pretty ignorant on these units, but would also like a way to pause live HD OTA TV. I will also try a PM.

Thanks,
Mike

If you are interested in selling one of the HDD250's, I would like a shot at it. I'm pretty ignorant on these units, but would also like a way to pause live HD OTA TV. I will also try a PM.


Sorry for the confusion, I've updated my post to fend off the private messages for a couple of years :D

I'd agree Sony needs some nudge for a work around on the clock set. They likely intend to do nothing, even going as far as asserting such a design flaw (where an item promoted as a Recorder will no longer record) isn't covered by the extended warranty.

My best guess is those who *insist* Sony should get a pass on this are those who got the liquidated DHG-HDD500 for $249, at a time when a 500 GB HDD was selling for more than that. And certainly for $249 it's not a bad quality dual input ATSC/QAM tuner.

This isn't just a sony problem. There are easily hundreds of thousands of devices out there from TV's to analog DVRs that use the Tvgos system, not to mention all the other information transmitted in the VBI, like closed captioning and time stamping. The quick and easy fix are the D/A converter boxes mandated to be ready by 2009 and Gemstar is lobbying heavily to have the capability to insert data extracted from the digital stream back into the analog output designed into these devices. Time will tell.

This isn't just a sony problem. There are easily hundreds of thousands of devices out there from TV's to analog DVRs that use the Tvgos system, not to mention all the other information transmitted in the VBI, like closed captioning and time stamping. The quick and easy fix are the D/A converter boxes mandated to be ready by 2009 and Gemstar is lobbying heavily to have the capability to insert data extracted from the digital stream back into the analog output designed into these devices. Time will tell.

Thanks for posting the above message. I sure would like someone to post an address at the FCC where we can send our concerns regarding loss of clock and guide data.

Previous positings imply that our Sony recorder is the only device impacted by the termination of analog transmission, and that Sony dumped these devices through Tweeters. To my knowledge, Tweeters was the only dealer to do that, and in my opinion, they took a big loss. If Sony had dumped them, we would have been able to get the same deal at Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. We probably will never know why Sony stopped producing these units. One reason could be very high return rate due to problems with receiving the guide. Another possible reason could be the price.


Ray

Thanks for posting the above message. I sure would like someone to post an address at the FCC where we can send our concerns regarding loss of clock and guide data.

Previous positings imply that our Sony recorder is the only device impacted by the termination of analog transmission, and that Sony dumped these devices through Tweeters. To my knowledge, Tweeters was the only dealer to do that, and in my opinion, they took a big loss. If Sony had dumped them, we would have been able to get the same deal at Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. We probably will never know why Sony stopped producing these units. One reason could be very high return rate due to problems with receiving the guide. Another possible reason could be the price.

Ray

2 months ago there was a HDD250 at my Best Buy (open box) for $399 and there are still new HDD500 / HDD250's at my local Fry's. So you can hardly say Sony dumped them. Tweeter may have liquidated a discontinued product to make room for a new product and "cut their losses"

You can still see them in action at the Circuit City's in my area as a demo for the Sony plasmas.

Sony did dump these, or discontinued them early in their life cycle. I think also they were too much, too early, too pricey. Now that more Mom and Pop's have HDTV there is more demand for the HDDs. I've seen the prices rise a lot on ebay for the hard to get 500s. THey are going for $650 to $800. 6 months ago you could pick em off ebay for $450 or so. THe Sony Outlet near me was selling them months ago for very good prices, but haven;t had them for a while.
THere are lots of 250s on ebay from 1 or 2 sellers. My guess are these are the instore demos CC is using in stores to show off HDTV that they will not sell.

This isn't just a sony problem. There are easily hundreds of thousands of devices out there from TV's to analog DVRs that use the Tvgos system, not to mention all the other information transmitted in the VBI, like closed captioning and time stamping. The quick and easy fix are the D/A converter boxes mandated to be ready by 2009 and Gemstar is lobbying heavily to have the capability to insert data extracted from the digital stream back into the analog output designed into these devices. Time will tell.The problem specific to Sony is the (apparent) lack of manual clock set. Which is all I was refering to. I'm not all that worried about the lack of TVGOS, and of course there is nothing practical Sony can really do about that issue.

As far as the data extracted and modulated, I'll believe that if I ever see it. Doesn't seem like much practical application for consumers. I don't see most hooking an (additional) mandated D/A converter box to the legacy HDTV, for the sole purpose of tuning a single host channel, and modulating VBI data. Such consumers would likely get all the guide, closed caption, and the like directly from the converter box they are viewing live.

The only application I really envision for that scheme might be CATV/MATV demod, where you are already modulating the single analog channel. So reinserting the VBI data may be practical. But TVGOS would probably have to pay a cableco to do that since they'd likely consider it aiding and abetting competition to their own guide, DVR rental, and such.

I'd sure love to see any of this, but I'm not holding my breath.

The problem specific to Sony is the (apparent) lack of manual clock set. Which is all I was refering to. I'm not all that worried about the lack of TVGOS, and of course there is nothing practical Sony can really do about that issue.

As far as the data extracted and modulated, I'll believe that if I ever see it. Doesn't seem like much practical application for consumers. I don't see most hooking an (additional) mandated D/A converter box to the legacy HDTV, for the sole purpose of tuning a single host channel, and modulating VBI data. Such consumers would likely get all the guide, closed caption, and the like directly from the converter box they are viewing live.

The only application I really envision for that scheme might be CATV/MATV demod, where you are already modulating the single analog channel. So reinserting the VBI data may be practical. But TVGOS would probably have to pay a cableco to do that since they'd likely consider it aiding and abetting competition to their own guide, DVR rental, and such.

I'd sure love to see any of this, but I'm not holding my breath.

It's not really a scheme. These boxes are actually FCC mandated and will be subsidized for the estimated 15% of US households by 2009 relying exclusively on OTA analog signals from an antenna. It's even more if you include the homes that have cable to the main set and maybe an antenna hookup to a 2nd set. The VBI data question has to be addressed for those situations. There's too many people using it (every V-Chip installed till recently relies on data in the VBI). I agree that it was short sighted of sony not to have a manual time setting capability, and I don't expect them to do anything to change that either but if I can buy a 60$ converter box that does the job, I'll throw it behind the wall unit, switch it in at night and out in the morning. I'm just glad I only pay for the equipment and not the content.

You can still see them in action at the Circuit City's in my area as a demo for the Sony plasmas.

They had them on the XBR1 when I was shopping. I didn't get mine from CC but they did have me considering it.

They still have the demo of the HDD500 at the nearby Frys but still listed at $999.... I'm resisting it, but it's growing harder...

They still have the demo of the HDD500 at the nearby Frys but still listed at $999.... I'm resisting it, but it's growing harder...

I would wait, the Fry's in Austin, TX is $849 for the HDD500 and $599 for the HDD250. That change occurred right after the new year.

Yeah I keep hoping I'll be able to jump on them deals. Anything under $500 for the HDD500 I would probably jump on instantly. Anything more than that merits some pondering.

It's not really a scheme. These boxes are actually FCC mandated and will be subsidized for the estimated 15% of US households by 2009 relying exclusively on OTA analog signals from an antenna...The converter boxes are all but a done deal. What I'm calling a *scheme* is the pipe dream that somehow those boxes will be approved/required to convert/modulate the ATSC EPG data to VBI. Simple and inexpensive but I still fear unlikely.

No doubt I'd get one if they did. But I fail to see how it really benefits other devices, vchip, etc. When you consider everyone needing to slap the $60 box behind their HDTV, and additionally still need whatever STB they use to tune digital signals. They could use such a converter box for OTA but how would they maintain host channel data stream if it isn't dual tuner? Sure we here could work around that rather easily.

The one place it might work (out of the box) is where the cable company converts the ATSC locals to analog, for those systems keeping limited analogs available in 2009. Perhaps that's the reasoning for the submission from Gemstar-TV Guide International, Inc.

Don't get me wrong I'd sure love to see all (any) subsidized converter boxes do it. :)

I would wait, the Fry's in Austin, TX is $849 for the HDD500 and $599 for the HDD250. That change occurred right after the new year.

I just bought the last one at Fry's in Seattle for $699 (the price tag still said $999. They are still selling the HDD250's for $599.

The one place it might work (out of the box) is where the cable company converts the ATSC locals to analog, for those systems keeping limited analogs available in 2009. Perhaps that's the reasoning for the submission from Gemstar-TV Guide International, Inc.

Ken,

I agree with you but I don't think that it will happen either. Our cable company now is only picking up the digital feed of one of the area PBS stations and for analog customers they are converting the PBS main feed to analog. Because it was ATSC there is no closed captioning or other VBI data (including clock and TVGOS) on their analog feed. I think this is what we will see in the future unless the FCC gets involved.

Ken,

I agree with you but I don't think that it will happen either. Our cable company now is only picking up the digital feed of one of the area PBS stations and for analog customers they are converting the PBS main feed to analog. Because it was ATSC there is no closed captioning or other VBI data (including clock and TVGOS) on their analog feed. I think this is what we will see in the future unless the FCC gets involved.

My cable system was doing the same thing, but I opened a trouble ticket with Gemstar/TVGOS, and they got them to go back to the old way. (At least I like to think it was thanks to my trouble ticket)... I am able to get guide data via cable once again.

Ken,

I agree with you but I don't think that it will happen either. Our cable company now is only picking up the digital feed of one of the area PBS stations and for analog customers they are converting the PBS main feed to analog. Because it was ATSC there is no closed captioning or other VBI data (including clock and TVGOS) on their analog feed. I think this is what we will see in the future unless the FCC gets involved.
Question I just thought of, how does closed captioning work then, doesn't it work the same way as the VBI info, isn't it broadcasted the same way?

Thanks

Closed Captioning is in the analog VBI. However in ATSC it isn't necessarily linked to clock or TVGOS.

One of our local analog cable channels (not a host channel) switched from analog origin to modulation of the corresponding ATSC subchannel. In the process Closed Captioning was eliminated entirely, and is still missing to this day. I'm sure that will be the future.

What's more, not only is the source digital subchannel of such poor quality OTA it's all but unwatchable, the analog cable retransmission is even worse. Perhaps it doesn't matter if there is CC or not because even ordinary people are complaining about how nasty it looks. The prior analog feed wasn't great, but watchable.

I can imagine the FCC requiring feed through of Closed Caption data in such cases, but of course as far as the cable company is concerned today, they probably think they are simply helping to push people to digital box rental.

Even if such forwarding of ATSC Closed Captioning to analog modulation was a requirement, TVGOS would still be a separate issue. It would additionally need to be intercepted and piped through for our purposes. You can argue it's EPG data for the public, but it's also *advertising* media paid for by TVGOS so that perhaps complicates the notion of mandatory inclusion.

Of course in some cases TVGOS may be willing to pay for it as they do with host channels.

Someone help me out. I'm getting my first sony dvr from e-bay. I've read most of this thread, but I'm having trouble understanding why I can't watch one channel while recording another, if my tv has a hd tuner and the sony has its own tuner? Also, are the cable company dvr boxes the same way?

So what do I need to do to be able to watch one program while recording another? I've read conflicting things in this thread, do I need to get a splitter or do I need to get an A/B switch as my vizio 47" tv has only one attenna/cable input? thanks.......

The Sony doesn't have a coaxial output, so you need to get a splitter. It shouldn't cost more than $5 or $10. Feed one branch to your TV and the other to the Sony. Connect the Sony to the TV using either HDMI or component video (red/green/blue). Then you can watch one channel on the TV while recording another one on the Sony.

Well, went to use my DVR last night and there's no guide data. Checked the TVGOS debug menu and it showed my host channel as "fffffddddd". Did a TVGOS reset and the force host channel code and left it overnight. This morning it shows the host channel as 2. There's no guide data, but it did ask me to choose which cable company option I was using. Perhaps it will download the actual guide data tonight, but I'm not hopeful.

Oddly the cable channel 11 passes the VBI test while the OTA does not. Though that was kind of disturbing and my indicate a larger problem.

Well, went to use my DVR last night and there's no guide data. Checked the TVGOS debug menu and it showed my host channel as "fffffddddd". Did a TVGOS reset and the force host channel code and left it overnight. This morning it shows the host channel as 2. There's no guide data, but it did ask me to choose which cable company option I was using. Perhaps it will download the actual guide data tonight, but I'm not hopeful.

Oddly the cable channel 11 passes the VBI test while the OTA does not. Though that was kind of disturbing and my indicate a larger problem.

i would assume that you will get data if it asked you for your cable lineup choice.

I am not putting much trust in the VBI test anymore. I have been consistently failing the VBI test, but I am still getting guide data. I tried the test on my OTA and cable channels and both failed. I am using the cable channel as the host currently.

I Have A Dhg 500 And I Am Having A Problem With The Audio. I Have The Sony Connected Via Hdmi To My Sony Television And The Audio Does Not Seem To Work. Video Is Fine. On The Sd Channels I Get Audio But Not On The Hi Def Channels. I Had The Audio Set To Dolby Digital Auto. I Then Connected Analog Audio Cables (hdmi Still Connected) And The Audio Is Now Working On The Hi Def Channels, But I Had To Change Dolby Digital Audio Auto To Off In Order To Get The Sound With The Analog Audio Cables. I Seem To Be Missing Somethng.
Can't Make Sense Of It. Can Anyone Shed Some Light On It?

Sd Channels Get Audio With Hdmi Connection Only And, Of Course, With Both Connections.

Hd Channels Need Analog Connection And Hdmi.

Thank You.

I Did Change The Hdmi Cables Twice. Problem Still Exists.

I Have A Dhg 500 And I Am Having A Problem With The Audio. I Have The Sony Connected Via Hdmi To My Sony Television And The Audio Does Not Seem To Work. Video Is Fine. On The Sd Channels I Get Audio But Not On The Hi Def Channels. I Had The Audio Set To Dolby Digital Auto. I Then Connected Analog Audio Cables (hdmi Still Connected) And The Audio Is Now Working On The Hi Def Channels, But I Had To Change Dolby Digital Audio Auto To Off In Order To Get The Sound With The Analog Audio Cables. I Seem To Be Missing Somethng.
Can't Make Sense Of It. Can Anyone Shed Some Light On It?

Sd Channels Get Audio With Hdmi Connection Only And, Of Course, With Both Connections.

Hd Channels Need Analog Connection And Hdmi.

Thank You.

Look at the diag or system screen and see if your display has authenticate. If it says "authenticating" then that could be your problem. I have had this happen to me.

i would assume that you will get data if it asked you for your cable lineup choice.

I am not putting much trust in the VBI test anymore. I have been consistently failing the VBI test, but I am still getting guide data. I tried the test on my OTA and cable channels and both failed. I am using the cable channel as the host currently.

I had a strange occurence happen yesterday.

I had TWO HDD's loose guide data. My other three DID NOT.
So I jacked up the signal level on Cable Channel 97 [Comcast]
[Boston Analog version of Channel 2] .

We'll see tonight if I have guide data back.

Just saw a 250 go for $660 plus shipping on eBay....makes me feel better about $449. ;)

Just saw a 250 go for $660 plus shipping on eBay....makes me feel better about $449. ;)
The fact that the prices are being driven up, i hope indicates that more consumers are ready to shell out $$ for something like this instead of renting crap from their cable co's, if someone would come out with a dual tuner, cablecard, STB that had reliable guide interaction/data/scheduling with no subscription fees, i think they could do well if they could top tivo's pricing (give people the option to pay up front with no sub fees, or rent it to them with no startup costs, but none of this 800 upfront and then 15/month), and provide more than one option to get the guide data, wireless/wired ethernet, usb, POTS, VoIP, etc...

http://www.usb-ware.com/mac-hdtv-miglia-tvmini-hd.htm

+

http://www.apple.com/macmini/

at least for OTA

Went to Fry's in Irving this weekend, and they have both the 250 & 500 in stock. Prices were $549 & $749 respectively. (The HDD500 box still had the original $999 price tag. I paid $899 a little over 1 1/2 years ago, Oh well, it has worked perfectly for me, and considering until now Comcast did not charge me a penny for the CableCard (TWC now does charge $2.95) I have been pretty pleased. Only thing that would have made it better is for Sony to have made a dual tuner unit instead of single tuner!

Hd Channels Need Analog Connection And Hdmi.
Most likely your TV doesn't support Dolby Digital audio input over HDMI. But if you set the Dolby Digital preferences option to Off, you should be able to get 2-channel audio over HDMI without requiring separate audio cables. Have you tried that?

All of a sudden last night I started getting ads on my TVGOS, after having the units for a year and a half this is the first time I've seen any ad on the service...

I actually kind of like it, I mean its not taking up any more space on the screen and its more intresting to look at than that crappy tv guide splash screen ad. Plus I never did understand who was paying for the service I was recieving, at least now I feel like maybe theres some incentive to gemstar to actually support any problems that I might have in the future... (if I can ever find out who to talk to)

Of course i have no intrest in any timeshares...

Have other people been seeing ads all along or is this a new thing?

pedrojunkie,

Where are you located?

timmer

http://www.usb-ware.com/mac-hdtv-miglia-tvmini-hd.htm

+

http://www.apple.com/macmini/

at least for OTA
there's about a billion ways to record OTA for cheap, my tv has a built in digital tuner, and i picked up a 160gig firewire HD (this is my OTA solution), but there are about 10-20 or so HD channels offered via cable, that i'm sure a lot of people are interested in (especially ESPN,ESPN2 during college football season for me),

http://www.usb-ware.com/mac-hdtv-miglia-tvmini-hd.htm

+

http://www.apple.com/macmini/

at least for OTA
60 and 80gb for $600 and $800??, clunky cableboxes have bigger hard drives.

60 and 80gb for $600 and $800??, clunky cableboxes have bigger hard drives.

point is you can add as many hard drives internal and external as you want, back them up etc.

Just saw a 250 go for $660 plus shipping on eBay....makes me feel better about $449. ;)

Just saw it at Fry's for $559 (250) and $749 (500), makes me almost want to go out and buy the 4 (2 of each) that they had left :)

pedrojunkie,

Where are you located?

timmer

Quincy, Massachusetts,

I have Comcast, not that that should make a difference...

Weird thing is one of the ads is to watch 24 on Saturdays at 11:30 on WGN, which is a Chicago area station...

point is you can add as many hard drives internal and external as you want, back them up etc.And I just happen to have about 500 GB of unused external HDD's lying around.:D

I like the record to DVD feature....what is different about this setup, if anything, from a HTPC?

Looks like I'm back in business! Of course I totally lost my channel arrangement and had to redo it. DOH!

i would assume that you will get data if it asked you for your cable lineup choice.

I just got a 250 off ebay and I get a small black box about .25 inches by .25 inches in the upper left hand corner that goes away only when i go into the menu or tv guide but when I go back to programing it is there again. Should I return this to the seller or is there a way to fix this so there is no box?? Please Help

No guide ads here in Minneapolis, MN - OTA with an LG 3410A
I have never seen them, ever
It would be nice though, I am sick of the logo too and it would be an indication gemstar is receiving some revenue

timmer

It's been a few days since I've received any guide info. I have Comcast in West Haven, CT. I know about the codes and I've reset the reception slicing info a few times. I always have new slicing info when I check the next day, but no guide.

One day the unit was off all night and the new guide data for that day still didn't show up, but it downloaded at the 1:46pm time and the guide was populated that evening. I thought, perhaps, the local PBS channel was going off the air before the download was complete. However, now it's not getting info during the day either.

What info should I be looking for in the service menu that might lead to an answer?

Until then, I'm gonna try PBS off the antenna.

Hi all,

I had a thought about the "doomsday doorstop" situation if we can't at least get clock data. Doesn't a VCR record ALL the data signal, including the "time of day" if it's present? I think it does. If not, then the rest of this posting isn't worth reading. :-)

So lets say you start a VCR recording your local PBS station on Monday at 3:00pm, on some day BEFORE 2009. Record for an hour or so.

After 2009 cutoff, if power gets cycled on the Sony, and it loses the clock, wait until Monday at 3:00pm, and play the VCR tape into the sony to set the time. Date will be wrong of course, but time and day of week will be right, so all our manual recordings will still work. For instance, a "weekly" recording will still occur at the right time. When setting the recordings up, you'd have to count the number of days to get it right, but it seems perfectly workable to me. Obviously you should have UPS on your Sony to keep it from getting powered off very often.

It would be easy enough to test I guess, if anyone has a strong PBS signal. Mine is weak, and further degradation after VCR recording might corrupt the XDS clock data on my unit, so I'm not sure my testing would be valid. Anyone want to:

a) poke a hole in my "worst case scenario workaround"?

b) test my assertion that this will work?

Thanks,
Wayne

A VCR records the AV program decoded from some source - OTA or whatever - it doesn't record the source, which is what would include the time, etc. In any case, you can't playback an AV program into a Sony....

Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned, a Sony WITH a time, but without the TV guide, is just next door to a doorstop!

Hi all,

I had a thought about the "doomsday doorstop" situation if we can't at least get clock data. Doesn't a VCR record ALL the data signal, including the "time of day" if it's present? I think it does. If not, then the rest of this posting isn't worth reading. :-)

So lets say you start a VCR recording your local PBS station on Monday at 3:00pm, on some day BEFORE 2009. Record for an hour or so.

After 2009 cutoff, if power gets cycled on the Sony, and it loses the clock, wait until Monday at 3:00pm, and play the VCR tape into the sony to set the time. Date will be wrong of course, but time and day of week will be right, so all our manual recordings will still work. For instance, a "weekly" recording will still occur at the right time. When setting the recordings up, you'd have to count the number of days to get it right, but it seems perfectly workable to me. Obviously you should have UPS on your Sony to keep it from getting powered off very often.

It would be easy enough to test I guess, if anyone has a strong PBS signal. Mine is weak, and further degradation after VCR recording might corrupt the XDS clock data on my unit, so I'm not sure my testing would be valid. Anyone want to:

a) poke a hole in my "worst case scenario workaround"?

b) test my assertion that this will work?

Thanks,
Wayne

I think that your idea works. To improve upon it, I suggest the time be captured at a convenient time every day for a week, so that both time and day of week can be conviently reset, and as an alternative, the signal can be recorded on DVD, which may last longer.
Let's hope that If the clock signal is no longer transmitted to analog tv, a black box clock generator will become available as a substitute.

Ray

A VCR records the AV program decoded from some source - OTA or whatever - it doesn't record the source, which is what would include the time, etc. In any case, you can't playback an AV program into a Sony....

Furthermore, as far as I'm concerned, a Sony WITH a time, but without the TV guide, is just next door to a doorstop!


Most VCRs have a coax output, in addition to AV. So no problem feeding signal to it. Most people who never recorded programs on their VCR, will not be happy. For those of us who did, will find HD recording far superior. It takes a few minutes to set a manual recording but manual recording is more reliable. Also, for those who record only weekly shows, recordings are easily identified by date, time and channel number.

Ray

All of a sudden last night I started getting ads on my TVGOS, after having the units for a year and a half this is the first time I've seen any ad on the service...

I actually kind of like it, I mean its not taking up any more space on the screen and its more intresting to look at than that crappy tv guide splash screen ad. Plus I never did understand who was paying for the service I was recieving, at least now I feel like maybe theres some incentive to gemstar to actually support any problems that I might have in the future... (if I can ever find out who to talk to)

Of course i have no intrest in any timeshares...

Have other people been seeing ads all along or is this a new thing?

I too have just seen the advertising beginning yesterday. Interesting... Why now though?

Have other people been seeing ads all along or is this a new thing?

I lost my guide for a few days and did resets of everything
I could find.

Guide data came back last night - WITH Ads [GRIN]!

I think TVGOS did some update to add the ads function
and it disrupted the guide data for a few days.

Hi all,

I had a thought about the "doomsday doorstop" situation if we can't at least get clock data. Doesn't a VCR record ALL the data signal, including the "time of day" if it's present? I think it does. If not, then the rest of this posting isn't worth reading. :-)

So lets say you start a VCR recording your local PBS station on Monday at 3:00pm, on some day BEFORE 2009. Record for an hour or so.

After 2009 cutoff, if power gets cycled on the Sony, and it loses the clock, wait until Monday at 3:00pm, and play the VCR tape into the sony to set the time. Date will be wrong of course, but time and day of week will be right, so all our manual recordings will still work. For instance, a "weekly" recording will still occur at the right time. When setting the recordings up, you'd have to count the number of days to get it right, but it seems perfectly workable to me. Obviously you should have UPS on your Sony to keep it from getting powered off very often.

It would be easy enough to test I guess, if anyone has a strong PBS signal. Mine is weak, and further degradation after VCR recording might corrupt the XDS clock data on my unit, so I'm not sure my testing would be valid. Anyone want to:

a) poke a hole in my "worst case scenario workaround"?

b) test my assertion that this will work?

Thanks,
Wayne

You assume that we have a VCR and a blank tape...can you still buy those? I think my VCR is in the closet somewhere :) So if this worked, your date would always be wrong, but the time should be right. Makes programming a show a week or two in advance kind of tricky. Then what happens during leap years? Does the day of the week get off? Just don't see this as a viable solution...having to pull out the VCR after every power glitch.

I lost my guide for a few days and did resets of everything
I could find.

Guide data came back last night - WITH Ads [GRIN]!

I think TVGOS did some update to add the ads function
and it disrupted the guide data for a few days.


I had lost guide data for the last few days as well. I gave the cable host channel one last chance last night before trying the antenna. And last night the guide populated again. However, I don't see any ads. Is there anything in the service menu that would say if any ads downloaded? Or would I definitely see the ads in the guide?

You assume that we have a VCR and a blank tape...can you still buy those? I think my VCR is in the closet somewhere :) So if this worked, your date would always be wrong, but the time should be right. Makes programming a show a week or two in advance kind of tricky. Then what happens during leap years? Does the day of the week get off? Just don't see this as a viable solution...having to pull out the VCR after every power glitch.

A true A/V geek holds on to old technology forever, just in case. :) I think I have 4 or 5 working VCRs in a closet right next to the Commodore 64. Also, the geek in me loves the challenge of using vhs recordings to set the time. The cheap bastard in me thinks the idea is great if I don't have to pay the cable co monthly to rent a DVR.

I had lost guide data for the last few days as well. I gave the cable host channel one last chance last night before trying the antenna. And last night the guide populated again. However, I don't see any ads. Is there anything in the service menu that would say if any ads downloaded? Or would I definitely see the ads in the guide?

When you bring up the guide - the Ads are to the LEFT
of the guide - where the menu will pop up if you press
the menu button after you get to the guide.

A true A/V geek holds on to old technology forever, just in case. :) I think I have 4 or 5 working VCRs in a closet right next to the Commodore 64. Also, the geek in me loves the challenge of using vhs recordings to set the time. The cheap bastard in me thinks the idea is great if I don't have to pay the cable co monthly to rent a DVR.

The cheap bastard in me doesn't even have cable :) I do have a VCR (in the closet, used about 3 times), but don't have any blank tapes.

I'm also not sure why others are seeing ads. Since September (when I bought my 2 units), the guide data has been working perfectly and I have yet to ever see an ad. I see the box for the ads, but no ads...not that I'm complaining :D

When you bring up the guide - the Ads are to the LEFT
of the guide - where the menu will pop up if you press
the menu button after you get to the guide.

If you scroll to the left and highlight the Ad, pushing the up and down arrow keys allow you to scroll through the ads.

If you scroll to the left and highlight the Ad, pushing the up and down arrow keys allow you to scroll through the ads.

WOW - I didn't try that :rolleyes:

I just got a 250 off ebay and I get a small black box about .25 inches by .25 inches in the upper left hand corner that goes away only when i go into the menu or tv guide but when I go back to programing it is there again. Should I return this to the seller or is there a way to fix this so there is no box?? Please Help
I sometimes see the box on my HDD500. I can make it go away by pressing a button on the remote. I think I press Play or Exit, just once is enough. I don't think I have to go into the menu or guide to make it go away.

By the way, some displays crop the outer edges of the picture, so the box might not be visible on those displays. On my display, I turned off the "overscan" mode, so I see the entire picture without any cropping, and thus I can see the box.

and as an alternative, the signal can be recorded on DVD, which may last longer.
You would have to use a DVD recorder that can record line 21 on field 2, which is the line used for the clock data, and a player that can produce it during playback. Some DVD recorders don't even record line 21 on field 1, which the line used for closed captioning.

I wonder if the DVR itself can record the clock data, then later play the recording to itself (by running its video output through a modulator, such as the one in a VCR, and then back to its RF input) to set the clock.

A true A/V geek holds on to old technology forever, just in case. :) I think I have 4 or 5 working VCRs in a closet right next to the Commodore 64. Also, the geek in me loves the challenge of using vhs recordings to set the time. The cheap bastard in me thinks the idea is great if I don't have to pay the cable co monthly to rent a DVR.

Assuming that using the VCR to set the time would work, this wouldn't actually set the date would it? I thought those time codes only did the time...

Just wondering.

Quincy, Massachusetts,

I have Comcast, not that that should make a difference...

Weird thing is one of the ads is to watch 24 on Saturdays at 11:30 on WGN, which is a Chicago area station...Don't forget, it's also a country-wide broadcasted SuperStation.

Get ready for the onslaught of Bose ads :rolleyes:.

Assuming that using the VCR to set the time would work, this wouldn't actually set the date would it? I thought those time codes only did the time...

Just wondering.


Of course both date and time are set. The recorder knows the date, time and day of week, which it can only get from an external source.

I have viewed closed captions on both Tape and DVD recordings so it's very likely that time information is also recorded.

No ads here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. Guide data coming in w/o any problems. Recently had TWC upgrade my CableCard and was surprised to see some guide data in a matter of hours!

IMHO the HDD500 is a real nice machine and I find the TVGOS interface works pretty smooth, particularly considering its free! I have had mine for almost 2 years and really like it. Agreed, there are some things that can be improved, but again, its definitely acceptable considering it does not cost me anything (oh well... not completely true. TWC now charges me $2.95/month for the CC, Comcast never charged for it).

----------

UPDATE: I also have a TIVO Series 3 w/lifetime subsscription. Both the Sony and S3 are great machines. I paid $900 for the Sony HDD500, and $849 for the S3 ($650 plus $199 for transfering my lifetime subscription) so both units were close in cost. The TIVO interface is certainly more user friendly and can record 2 programs at once. Had the Sony have dual tuners, I may not have purchased the S3.

just some thoughts...

All of a sudden last night I started getting ads on my TVGOS, after having the units for a year and a half this is the first time I've seen any ad on the service...

I actually kind of like it, I mean its not taking up any more space on the screen and its more intresting to look at than that crappy tv guide splash screen ad. Plus I never did understand who was paying for the service I was recieving, at least now I feel like maybe theres some incentive to gemstar to actually support any problems that I might have in the future... (if I can ever find out who to talk to)

Of course i have no intrest in any timeshares...

Have other people been seeing ads all along or is this a new thing?

I have the ads now, too, on my HDD-250. I am also located in Quincy, Massachusetts on Comcast cable.

American Express ad:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/392460355_a9c834640c.jpg

WGN ad:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/392460322_dcdbeebd34.jpg

Timeshares ad:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/162/392460242_ae6bf9df0a.jpg

Wally1912,

How do you attach your pictures so they show up on the post?

My thought on the whole "VCR" thing was to at least make the "worst case" scenario still have the Sony's as usable recorders, not just as tuners to pause live TV.

My (three) VCRs all have coax in and out, and I plan to make a couple tapes, Maybe a Monday and a Friday, so I'll have two time set points, and also a "backup" tape. Then I only would have to adjust for DST twice a year. or when the power gets cycled.

To answer another poster, yes, the DATE would be wrong. Time and day of the week would be ok. The real point is that you can set the time to something that isn't a random time. I can count that I want to record three days in the future, but not 3 days, 12 hours, and 14 minutes into the future. Day of week is important too, for the M-F recordings, etc., and that would be right as well as the time.

I wasn't saying it's the "solution", just that it makes the "worst case" a lot better. Someone still needs to do a PBS recording, then coax it in to the Sony to test. Of course remember to set the Sony VBI channel to the VCR's channel 3 output. I'll test it myself, but as I said, my PBS is weak, so I need to record it somewhere else. Anyway, if it works, I for one won't worry quite as much about having to throw away my Sony. You know the odds are, something for the clock set at least will come along, and we won't have to resort to this anyway.

Thanks,
Wayne

Wally1912,

How do you attach your pictures so they show up on the post?

Use a free image hosting site like Flickr to store your photos, then use the image button in the reply box to place the URL of the picture. Use the Preview Post feature to check out how it will look before you submit it.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/141/392476281_10e8d6f616.jpg

Thanks... wally1912

I have the ads now, too, on my HDD-250. I am also located in Quincy, Massachusetts on Comcast cable.

Ha! I see Y&R on your lineup. It's on mine, too. Keep the ladies happy!

Ha! I see Y&R on your lineup. It's on mine, too. Keep the ladies happy!

My wife's favorite. I have to admit it looks good in HD and I follow along half-heartedly.

I have the ads now, too, on my HDD-250. I am also located in Quincy, Massachusetts on Comcast cable.

Ditto, for me too. Appears to be the same ads for me as well. Comcast: Richmond, CA.

Ok, the $64K question.. How do we disable the ads? I don't want to be an income source for gemstar.

does anyone here use TVGOS in the los angeles area with time warner cable? if so is your channel lineup correct? the only lineups i can find are the outdated by about six months (they are pre adelphia integration, and every single digital channel is wrong)

I have the ads now, too, on my HDD-250. I am also located in Quincy, Massachusetts on Comcast cable.

YUP - that is what I have also.

It must be a NEW Comcast Feature ;)

ALSO - Thanks for the info on getting pictures to appear in the posts.

Thoth:
You Were Correct. I Switched The Auto Dolby Digital To Off And There Was No Need For Separate Audio Analog Cables.
Can't Say That I Completely Understand This As My Television Is Capable Of Dolby Digital, But It Works And I Thank You For The Advice.

Missy Quick

I have the ads on Comcast down here in Raynham, MA too. The first ad I saw was for bose.

You can cycle through the ads with the left arrow button.

I THINK.

I have the Bose ad as well as more.

I have the Bose ad as well as more.

Does it come with the requisite Paul Harvey voice-over????

Can't Say That I Completely Understand This As My Television Is Capable Of Dolby Digital
It's not uncommon for TVs to support DD only for their built-in ATSC tuner or cablecard slot and not for HDMI inputs. But you could check your TVs manual to make sure there isn't some option for enabling it.

Does it come with the requisite Paul Harvey voice-over????

Silent Ads - SO FAR :o

don't want to see any ads.

does anyone here use TVGOS in the los angeles area with time warner cable? if so is your channel lineup correct? the only lineups i can find are the outdated by about six months (they are pre adelphia integration, and every single digital channel is wrong)

I had to redo the whole thing manually based on the channel guide provided by TWC.

No ads here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area.

No ads in upstate South Carolina, either. Maybe it's a regional thing.

don't want to see any ads.Same, how do we disable them? Setting up a Linux box with MythTV is now looking more the way to go. I wonder if I could steal parts from my DHG for it?

how do we disable them?You can't. You'll eventually learn to ignore them.

You can't. You'll eventually learn to ignore them.

I agree, though they have not started here in the DFW area, the ads would not be a nuisance to me. THe TVGuide boxes are there, and I never pay attendion to them! COnsidering the service is totally free... I am all for the ads to show up if it means keeping the service alive!

Yeah I don't mind the ads they are static, don't take up any more screen space and are more intresting to look at than the old splash screen, I was always worried about the service simply because I don't understand their buisness plan... They are going to offer a nationwide tv guide service for free updated every three hours or so... for free... and have no advertisments... Who was paying for this service? PBS? not likely, id imagine gemstar would have to pay PBS to use their bandwidth... Sony? maybe at one point but even if they did at one point probrably not anymore since I think all the tvgos sony products are discontinued... other manufacturers? maybe but there doesn't seem to be many tvs that still have the TVGOS on board anymore...

So who is footing the bill for the nationwide network? Advertising makes me feel a little better that somebody is... Remember these are niche products and it costs money to run the gemstar system. It would be very easy for them to just shrug their shoulders an go quetly into the night. Not that many people will care in the grand scheme of things... All this poising for 2009 is well and good, but if they aren't making money there will be no D/A conversion boxes because it won't be worth it.

Maybe i'm just ignorant of the economics... and I'm not seeing something...

Don't forget, it's also a country-wide broadcasted SuperStation.

Get ready for the onslaught of Bose ads :rolleyes:.

No ads here in the far west Chicago suburbs but over 100 channels have been added yet I recognize very few of them. Strange.

EDIT: Something really strange is going on here. I'm picking up well over a hundred new stations in the channel editor including some local digital subchannels that were not on there before but most of the new channels showing up are not local. Not by a long shot. It's displaying channels from all around the country as far away as New York and Los Angeles. Very strange.

I had to redo the whole thing manually based on the channel guide provided by TWC.
Who do we contact if the channel lineup is completely wrong? gemstar's website doesn't have any info (it says to contact the equipment manufacturer directly, but i'm pretty sure the fact that they have a channel lineup outdated by six months isn't mitsubishi's fault) anybody know how to pester?

No ads here in the far west Chicago suburbs but over 100 channels have been added yet I recognize very few of them. Strange.

EDIT: Something really strange is going on here. I'm picking up well over a hundred new stations in the channel editor including some local digital subchannels that were not on there before but most of the new channels showing up are not local. Not by a long shot. It's displaying channels from all around the country as far away as New York and Los Angeles. Very strange.

That started to happen here and THEN - the ads came along NEXT.

Hey everybody,

I was one of those people who bought a demo DHG-HDD250 off ebay last week. I THOUGH I don't need a remote and long story short.... it turns out I do need one.

I need that special "dot" button when I edit the TV guide setup for some sub- channels. I have like 6 different universal remotes at home and none of them worked (the dot button I mean). I bought a new sony remote that has a dot on it but that doesn't work with my DHG-HDD250, I even have a Sony RM-AV3000 that can learn new buttons, but still I need to have that origanl remote for DHG-HDD250 to "learn it" from.

Am I screwed? Do I have to buy a 60bucks replacement remote to use it for like 2 minutes?

Please help.

I even have a Sony RM-AV3000 that can learn new buttons, but still I need to have that origanl remote for DHG-HDD250 to "learn it" from.

Am I screwed? Do I have to buy a 60bucks replacement remote to use it for like 2 minutes?

Please help.

Where are you? Post your location; maybe you have someone in your area that will let you borrow one.

Also, are you SURE you need one? Someone posted a Sony system ID to select in the preset codes in this thread somewhere; do some research. Maybe someone can comment on that part of it for your remote.

Wayne

Am I screwed? Do I have to buy a 60bucks replacement remote to use it for like 2 minutes?

Please help.

Someone on this tread posted recent info to buy a replacement
one. I didn't think it was $60??

I know you mentioned a Sony remote that can learn. I assume
none of your universal remotes are a Pronto - because Pronto
codes are available for the HDD.

I think you will need a lot more than just the DOT Button Code
to learn.

Where are you? Post your location; maybe you have someone in your area that will let you borrow one.

Also, are you SURE you need one? Someone posted a Sony system ID to select in the preset codes in this thread somewhere; do some research. Maybe someone can comment on that part of it for your remote.

Wayne


I live in Niagara Falls, Ontario. So my cable company is Cogeco Canada, but my OTA antenna is pointing to Buffalo, NY. Since the TV Guide can only set to one country or another, it has either the OTA HD channels listed right but my basic cable channels wrong, OR, right cable channel info but no info on sny of the HD OTA channels. I know I can setup the guide manually, but I need the dot button on the remote to enter the correct HD channel numbers. Without that, the guide just point to the analog channel.

I will start going throught the thread, but 290 pages will take a LONG time....

I remember having to manually program that particular key (along with a couple of others) into my harmony remote. Luckily one of my units came with a remote. The only other work around is to enter the number without the sub-channel and then hit channel up until you get to the subchannel you want.

I remember having to manually program that particular key (along with a couple of others) into my harmony remote. Luckily one of my units came with a remote. The only other work around is to enter the number without the sub-channel and then hit channel up until you get to the subchannel you want.

But on the tv guide setup screen. You know, the one under "change channel display", it doesn't seem letting me use the channel up/down buttons to enter "tune channel number". I can only enter the whole number (analog channels) but since with out the "dot" button, I can't enter the digital channels (xx.x). Hence i am unable to map the HD channel to the right listing.

I use a harmony 720 to control both my TiVo Series 3 and my Sony HDD500 w/o any problems. $720 will cost more than $60 though! With some luck you may find one in a Wal-Mart on clearance, I paid $100 for mine, but have read posts of someone paying as low as $80. CostCo still carries them for $179.

Regards...

I bought three remotes here:

http://www.dvdremotecontrols.com/Mfrs/Sony/SonyDSS/RM-Y823.htm

$40 each.

I'd send you one of mine to borrow, but after shipping both ways, you could have one for permanent backup. I advise just buying the remote. You still got a good deal.

Wayne

Hey everybody,

I was one of those people who bought a demo DHG-HDD250 off ebay last week. I THOUGH I don't need a remote and long story short.... it turns out I do need one.


I agree with wcohoe

I bought three remotes here:

http://www.dvdremotecontrols.com/Mf...DSS/RM-Y823.htm

$40 each.


It is WORTH buying one - you will be glad you did.

Has anyone else in the Chicagoland area noticed over a hundred new channels in the TVGOS channel editor? At first I thought they must be from Wisconsin and Indiana but many are from New York and Los Angeles. Why are these showing up for Chicagoland viewers?

Some new ones that are for Chicagoland viewers:

WLSD3 (NBC WeatherPlus)
WFBT (Ethnic Programming)
WYIN-DT1, DT2 and DT5
WCIU-DT1 and DT2
WTTWD2 (Have no idea what this is but I now have 5 WTTWs in the channel editor)

493 channels in the channel editor and that's Cable only. If I was set up for both Cable and Air I can only imagine how many there would be. Probably at over 600.


I also noticed most are digital stations with a D, DT or HD suffix. Maybe this is a sign that Gemstar is getting ready for a major overhaul. Perhaps we will see a firmware update to allow TVGOS data to be received over digital after all. So far the firmware has remained the same. Perhaps I should turn on some of the New York and Los Angels channels and see if I get listings for them. Very odd.

No extra channels near downtown Chicago yet. I have ~430, which I've had for some time.

Has anyone else in the Chicagoland area noticed over a hundred new channels in the TVGOS channel editor? At first I thought they must be from Wisconsin and Indiana but many are from New York and Los Angeles. Why are these showing up for Chicagoland viewers?

Some new ones that are for Chicagoland viewers:

WLSD3 (NBC WeatherPlus)
WFBT (Ethnic Programming)
WYIN-DT1, DT2 and DT5
WCIU-DT1 and DT2
WTTWD2 (Have no idea what this is but I now have 5 WTTWs in the channel editor)

493 channels in the channel editor and that's Cable only. If I was set up for both Cable and Air I can only imagine how many there would be. Probably at over 600.


I also noticed most are digital stations with a D, DT or HD suffix. Maybe this is a sign that Gemstar is getting ready for a major overhaul. Perhaps we will see a firmware update to allow TVGOS data to be received over digital after all. So far the firmware has remained the same. Perhaps I should turn on some of the New York and Los Angels channels and see if I get listings for them. Very odd.


Yup,

I have the new channels/listing as well...

Has anyone else in the Chicagoland area noticed over a hundred new channels in the TVGOS channel editor? At first I thought they must be from Wisconsin and Indiana but many are from New York and Los Angeles. Why are these showing up for Chicagoland viewers?

Some new ones that are for Chicagoland viewers:

WLSD3 (NBC WeatherPlus)
WFBT (Ethnic Programming)
WYIN-DT1, DT2 and DT5
WCIU-DT1 and DT2
WTTWD2 (Have no idea what this is but I now have 5 WTTWs in the channel editor)

493 channels in the channel editor and that's Cable only. If I was set up for both Cable and Air I can only imagine how many there would be. Probably at over 600.


I also noticed most are digital stations with a D, DT or HD suffix. Maybe this is a sign that Gemstar is getting ready for a major overhaul. Perhaps we will see a firmware update to allow TVGOS data to be received over digital after all. So far the firmware has remained the same. Perhaps I should turn on some of the New York and Los Angels channels and see if I get listings for them. Very odd.

A previous posting suggested a correlation with TV Guide ads. Let us know if you get the ads anytime soon.

No ads here yet in the Cincinnati area and no new channel listings. We still have some channels that are listed as UPN or WB stations and still none that say CW.

No ads here yet in the Cincinnati area and no new channel listings. We still have some channels that are listed as UPN or WB stations and still none that say CW.

I wonder if the ads are only on Comcast?

So far - those of us who are receiving the ads all
are on Comcast.

Since the ads take up no useful space - I don't mind
them and maybe with ad revenue - Gemstar and
Comcast will make sure our GUIDE DATA keeps running.

I'd certainly rather see the ads than PAY for any Guide info.

I also NOTICED an IMPROVEMENT in Guide data last night.
Some shows intentionally run over their time slot by a few
minutes - just to screw up recoding systems. Last Night
When I recorded a show which is suppose to be 60 minutes
long - the Guide knew better and recorded for 65 minutes
so that I got the whole show ;)

I wonder if the ads are only on Comcast?

So far - those of us who are receiving the ads all
are on Comcast.


Comcast user here in CT and no ads yet. I wouldn't mind since, as others have pointed out, there is no more useful space taken up by them on the Guide screen.

It would be nice to have new channel listings in the editor as I am still looking for The Tube, NBC WeatherPlus, etc.

Comcast user here in CT and no ads yet. I wouldn't mind since, as others have pointed out, there is no more useful space taken up by them on the Guide screen.

It would be nice to have new channel listings in the editor as I am still looking for The Tube, NBC WeatherPlus, etc.

I guess some of us are more on the bleeding edge than others.

Although I have no control over what they send down the pipe ;)

Thanks for your reply.

Stopped in Fry's today. They have 2 250s and 4 500s in boxes ( new) plus one each on display. $549.00 and $749.00 respectively. This is the first I have seen the lower price on these at this store. Some of the boxes look a little banged up, but the clerk said these are new units and not refurbished. I may still get another one if the price drops a little more. He said that these have been in the store for quite some time, maybe as long as when they first came out.
Michael

I may still get another one if the price drops a little more. He said that these have been in the store for quite some time, maybe as long as when they first came out.


Same pricing in Austin, TX and from my experience watching discontinued products at Fry's, once the tag turns red the pricing doesn't come down any further. In the store by me the 250 was red, but the 500 was still yellow, so maybe lower on the HDD500, but I wouldn't expect it on the HDD250.

It just occurred to me that clock signal recordings may come in handy long before analog transmission ends: Right now the guide is working perfectly on both of my recorders but there is no guarantee that it will continue that way without interruption before 2009 since outages have occurred before. To acquire the clock signal, I plan to set one of my HDD units to record a few minutes around midnight over a period of one week so I will have the ability to set the clock to any day of the week. If I need that signal, i will copy it to either my VCR or DVD burner and then, with unit in standby, apply it to a coax input.

Ray

You can't. You'll eventually learn to ignore them.I'll be starting a linux box with MythTV this weekend to replace this DHG. Thanks for all the fish.. I can't express in text how pissed I am. :mad:

I'll be starting a linux box with MythTV this weekend to replace this DHG. Thanks for all the fish.. I can't express in text how pissed I am. :mad:

Seriously? You are getting rid of this thing because it is showing ads? Seems like a no more than a minor distraction to me...

To each his own, I guess. I am sure someone else would be THRILLED to take that worthless box off your hands for cheap!

Seriously? You are getting rid of this thing because it is showing ads? Seems like a no more than a minor distraction to me...

To each his own, I guess. I am sure someone else would be THRILLED to take that worthless box off your hands for cheap!

The Ads only replace the TV GUIDE Logo - Big Deal is right.

Ya - lets drive down the costs of these boxes. Maybe we'll
see them on eBay for $200 now ;)

And it's only on the Guide screen - which currently has that space filled with a TV Guide splash. Now, if they start inserting little floating ads during playback, THAT would be an issue!

And it's only on the Guide screen - which currently has that space filled with a TV Guide splash. Now, if they start inserting little floating ads during playback, THAT would be an issue!

Seems to me that the revenue from guide ads is the major reason for us getting a free guide instead of paying a monthly fee. It is also a major motivation for tv guide to lobby the FCC to provide a mean for us to receive the guide after analog tv disappears.

Ray

I am in San Francisco area using over-the-air signals only. Several days ago my Sony HDD250 stopped getting new Guide listing. I haven't changed the settings but we lost power couple of times. Now I don't get anymore listings.
Does anyone else has this problem? Is the service down? Is there a place we can check if the service is up and running?

I waited several days for the listing to update, but I only get this message:
"Updated information will be available within 24 hours. The Guide is rebuilding your channel list based on your setup change.

Can you please advise.
Thanks.

I waited several days for the listing to update, but I only get this message:
"Updated information will be available within 24 hours. The Guide is rebuilding your channel list based on your setup change.

Can you please advise.
Thanks.

I know what you are getting :p

That is the same thing that happened here when they did
whatever upgrade they did to ADD THE ADS to your guide.
I was without guide data for 3-4 days.

Just make sure you go into guide setup and go through the
whole process you did when new. That way it will be ready
to get the NEW UPDATES when they are ready.

Comcast user here in CT and no ads yet. I wouldn't mind since, as others have pointed out, there is no more useful space taken up by them on the Guide screen.

I can also confirm no ads in CT with Comcast yet. What is strange is that I experienced the service outage at the same time as others across the northeast, but no ads when it finally came back. :confused:
I want my ads damnit! As stupid as it sounds, I feel like I'm missing out on something. :)

Seriously? You are getting rid of this thing because it is showing ads? Seems like a no more than a minor distraction to me...

To each his own, I guess. I am sure someone else would be THRILLED to take that worthless box off your hands for cheap!Low tolerance threshold, I guess ;).

To any others in the Chicagoland area:

I'm also getting the new channel listings, and I'm also getting tons, and I do mean TONS of channels from at least a hundred-mile radius around me!

Not getting any channels from as far away as the coasts, though. Maybe because I'm strictly OTA. Are you sure those channels are not just the "SuperStations"?

Seems to me that the revenue from guide ads is the major reason for us getting a free guide instead of paying a monthly fee. It is also a major motivation for tv guide to lobby the FCC to provide a mean for us to receive the guide after analog tv disappears.

Ray

It seems to me it would be trivial for a cable company after 2009 to keep an analog channel with TVGOS working. Especially if it provides ad revenue. The people who rely on OTA for the guide are out of luck.

Unless... ( i get a big idea )

I design a small box that is an OTA antenna amplifier. It also receives the shortwave time signal that those self-setting clocks use. My little box then provides a phantom analog channel with the time embedded in the vertical blanking. There would be no guide, but the recorder would be usable.
:D

I design a small box that is an OTA antenna amplifier. It also receives the shortwave time signal that those self-setting clocks use. My little box then provides a phantom analog channel with the time embedded in the vertical blanking. There would be no guide, but the recorder would be usable.
:D

I've looked into that already, and there are some older design IC's which would be helpful in generating the signal, but there really is nothing like a radio time to line 21 time of day embed. It would be a major project. If you could pull it off, my hat would be off to you, my friend. I'd also buy one of your boxes right now as a backup clock set source.

I also wondered if the guy who's poking around inside the Sonys (can't remember his username; sorry) might look at what it would take to add battery backup to the clock chip, sort of like computer motherboards have. Might be impossible; might be doable.

Wayne

Is there a way to get the TV guide to automatically sort by channel number? I'm going 1 by 1 with the scroll button and I think I'm going to shoot myself!

... the guy who's poking around inside the Sonys (can't remember his username; sorry) ...

I think you might be referring to Mark Fontana.

To any others in the Chicagoland area:

I'm also getting the new channel listings, and I'm also getting tons, and I do mean TONS of channels from at least a hundred-mile radius around me!

Not getting any channels from as far away as the coasts, though. Maybe because I'm strictly OTA. Are you sure those channels are not just the "SuperStations"?

Most of them were from the neighboring states but there were a few from New York and Los Angeles.

I also wondered if the guy who's poking around inside the Sonys (can't remember his username; sorry) might look at what it would take to add battery backup to the clock chip, sort of like computer motherboards have. Might be impossible; might be doable.

That is an excellent idea! Almost makes me want to crack the case and break out the soldering iron...

I am in San Francisco area using over-the-air signals only. Several days ago my Sony HDD250 stopped getting new Guide listing. I haven't changed the settings but we lost power couple of times. Now I don't get anymore listings.
Does anyone else has this problem? Is the service down? Is there a place we can check if the service is up and running?

I waited several days for the listing to update, but I only get this message:
"Updated information will be available within 24 hours. The Guide is rebuilding your channel list based on your setup change.

Can you please advise.
Thanks.

Hi...I'm in the same area, using OTA, and have been getting the listings fine...just checked, and they are complete...

I might suggest just turning the unit off and unplugging it for an hour or so....I had a couple of unexplained hangups some months ago, and I think that's what solved them...

OUT of TIME in 2009?

I do not think so. A little quiz:
Does any one know how many TV sets are in te USA alone?
Of that number, how many have a NTSC tuner?
How many are CRTs?
How many other devices are out there; dvds, vcrs, pvrs, dvrs, etc.. that have clocks set or updated thru the tv system?
Michael
A few more questions:
How many people would be calling Washington if their taxes went up by 50% overnight?
How many would call if their tv sets quit working overnight?

The answer to all the above questions: It doesn't matter.

Analog via OTA is going bye-bye in 2009. That's two years from now. Nothing overnight about it. Expect a lot of publicity next year. Virtually all those devices can have their clocks set manually.

The answer to all the above questions: It doesn't matter.

Analog via OTA is going bye-bye in 2009. That's two years from now. Nothing overnight about it. Expect a lot of publicity next year. Virtually all those devices can have their clocks set manually.
Yes it all does matter. How are all those sets (NTSC) going to work with a digital only signal?
Michael

Yes it all does matter. How are all those sets (NTSC) going to work with a digital only signal?
Michael

Digital converter box (Set top box) that the government is going to issue $40 vouchers for. This will apply to people with OTA signals only (I.e. Me :)). Basically it is a digital cable box like device that only handles OTA signals.

As long as the NTSC tuner only machines can have their clocks set manually, there will be no problem. Set top box and IR blaster and you are good to go.

The problem with the Sony is that there is not a way (with current firmware) to manually set the clock.

(Regarding trying to add a battery backup to the onboard clock.) That is an excellent idea! Almost makes me want to crack the case and break out the soldering iron...

As far as I can tell, there is no hardware time-of-day clock in these units. The clock is likely implemented in software, assumes a default value on powerup, and is later initialized from the VBI info. To keep the clock valid during a power outage, the CPU and support circuitry would need to be kept running... definitely a bigger job than just grafting on a battery somewhere, and not really feasible.

Given how rough it is on these DVRs when power is lost, just putting the whole unit on a UPS may be the way to go.

I am fairly confident that a solution for the guide data will emerge by 2009, even if it turns out that these units can't receive TVGOS over ATSC and cannot be upgraded by Gemstar to do so. I'm still optimistically suspicious about that ATSC packet count in the TVGOS test screens, regardless of what some Gemstar or Sony reps may have said in the past.

The idea of using a VCR to set the clock by forcing the DVR's guide channel to channel 3 is very clever, though cumbersome, and I'll bet it would work. I don't think it would work from a DVD recorder or other recording method that is not fully analog. I'm not very excited about trying to use this DVR without a working program guide.

A lot of you are now fully out of warranty. It couldn't hurt if a few more of us would do some poking around inside these units. From the private messages I've received, it is clear that a decent handful of us have embedded engineering skills, access to hard drive forensic tools, etc.

That is an excellent idea! Almost makes me want to crack the case and break out the soldering iron...

Battery backup won't insure that the clock continues to kept time: A few months ago, a problem at the pbs station stopped transmission of guide data and clock signal. During that outage, the clock in one of my two units stopped working so i couldn't record manually. The clock in the other unit continued working properly.
If the digital to analog converter box doesn't include provision for clock set, I believe that the next best thing would be to power the unit from a UPS and use a prerecorded pbs source for clock set.

Ray

Given how rough it is on these DVRs when power is lost, just putting the whole unit on a UPS may be the way to go.

I'm not very excited about trying to use this DVR without a working program guide.

.

As I reported in my previous message, the clocked failed even with UPS. Also, even if it didn't, eventually the batteries in the UPS will need to be replaced, causing power interruption.

The guide is a nice feature but not essential for program recording. Moreover, sometimes guide programming fails. That's why i use both manual and guide programming. Too bad there isn't a way to edit the program name into the title to replace UNKNOWN.

Since the DVD recording has ability to display subtitles, seems like it should also transmit the clock signal.

Ray

As I reported in my previous message, the clocked failed even with UPS. Also, even if it didn't, eventually the batteries in the UPS will need to be replaced, causing power interruption...Not to mention I have to reboot mine every other month to reclaim free space or for some reason anyway.

If we can't come up with a reasonable way to replace the HDD, none of this will matter too much in the long term anyway.

If we can't come up with a reasonable way to replace the HDD, none of this will matter too much in the long term anyway.

Sony will surely replace the drives for a fee, though if the particular drives matter, it might helpful to keep some spare hard drives of your own on hand (Western Digital WD2500JB PATA drives are what you need). This would be cheaper than buying them as a replacement part, plus Sony might run out of them...

It still might be possible to replace drives on our own... one of the ideas discussed in private messaging was to get around the hard drive ID problem by making the new hard drive appear to be the old one instead of trying to get the DVR to accept the ID of the new one. Apparently there are some hard drive analysis tools (like taft (http://www.vidstrom.net/stools/taft/)) which could facilitate this.

...It still might be possible to replace drives on our own... one of the ideas discussed in private messaging was to get around the hard drive ID problem by making the new hard drive appear to be the old one instead of trying to get the DVR to accept the ID of the new one. Apparently there are some hard drive analysis tools (like taft (http://www.vidstrom.net/stools/taft/)) which could facilitate this.That or swap the board from an identical drive. Wonder if the drive spoofing possibilities would allow for a larger size?

Sony will surely replace the drives for a fee...That seems insane to me after routinely replacing (upgrading) TiVo, ReplayTV drives (every other year) without losing a show or even a day.

...I'm still optimistically suspicious about that ATSC packet count in the TVGOS test screens, regardless of what some Gemstar or Sony reps may have said in the past.Have you noticed ATSC packets registering anywhere besides in 9012? If I saw dynamic evidence over in 753159852 I might have more hope. It sure can read the closed captioning in ATSC but I'm rather skeptical it will get much else as it is.

I suppose the G* default reset to 12:00 am 01/01/2004 shouldn't be all that inconvenient to jump start *a* clock if we are sitting without guide. Wonder if that kicks out the existing channel labels? Seems like there is some basic channel identification over in the Sony setup portion. Must at least get the call sign from PSIP?

Maintaining the HDD probably is the most critical thing if for nothing else than pausing live HD. Some external app translating a 12:00 am 01/01/2004 lag for simpler manual scheduling should be pretty easy... in the case no VBI or VBI generators are practical, and we end up cut off as I suspect.

I think you might be referring to Mark Fontana.

Yes, exactly. Sorry I forgot your name, Mark.

It's gratifying that some people like my VCR idea. I notice that the doom and gloom worst case talk is a little brighter now, BUT has anyone (will anyone) test my assertion? As I said before, my PBS is pretty weak, and I doubt the clock and closed caption will survive the vcr at my house.

Wayne

Since the DVD recording has ability to display subtitles, seems like it should also transmit the clock signal.
I think you mean closed captions, which is different from subtitles.

Closed caption data is transmitted on line 21 and line 284 (a.k.a. line 21 on field 2). Clock data is also transmitted on line 284. Some DVD recorders can record this data, and some players can produce it during playback.

One possibility is to use computer software that generates clock data (with the current date and upcoming times) and writes it to a file. Then use a DVD authoring program that imports the file as if it were closed caption data, since the data is just raw bytes. Later, you play the DVD in sync with the actual time.

I think you mean closed captions, which is different from subtitles.

Closed caption data is transmitted on line 21 and line 284 (a.k.a. line 21 on field 2). Clock data is also transmitted on line 284. Some DVD recorders can record this data, and some players can produce it during playback.

One possibility is to use computer software that generates clock data (with the current date and upcoming times) and writes it to a file. Then use a DVD authoring program that imports the file as if it were closed caption data, since the data is just raw bytes. Later, you play the DVD in sync with the actual time.
Why are so many hung up about the clock? As long as we have the D/A converter, then we should still get the clock signal along with all the V-chip info, closed caption, etc... and hopefully, TVGOS. I think that we will still get TVGOS as I see no reason why this would be dropped from the VBI information that has to be sent for the old sets to work properly. (Sent in a digital form and converted into analog after the 2009 switch).
Michael

So there is no way to use the USB or ethernet port on the back for future clock and guide updates over the internet??

We do have 2 years left with out units, and I'm sure someone out there can figure a way to do this somehow. (I hope) :D

Why are so many hung up about the clock? As long as we have the A/D converter, then we should still get the clock signal along with all the V-chip info, closed caption, etc... and hopefully, TVGOS.

Where is this mythical box you speak of?

Anyone using their HDD unit with FIOS/cablecard? FIOS recently changed their channel lineups. In the DC metro area we went over Tues (2/20.) As of this morning my TVGOS information hasn't been updated with the new channel lineup. Anyone else?

On a positive note...TVGOS for my FIOS lineup was missing two HD channels TNTHD and NatGeoHD. I contacted TVGOS engineering...they took my email and kept me updated. Low and behold about a month later the channels were added. Bravo.

Too bad there isn't a way to edit the program name into the title to replace UNKNOWN.

This is the rub, IMO. While I could probably deal with wading through a slew of "UNKNOWN" listings based on time of day and date, there's absolutely NO WAY that my wife would.

(inre replacing drives) That or swap the board from an identical drive. Wonder if the drive spoofing possibilities would allow for a larger size?

Swapping the boards is what I had been thinking about as well. For me, HDD failure is a much more relevant worry over the next two years...

Why are so many hung up about the clock? As long as we have the A/D converter, then we should still get the clock signal along with all the V-chip info, closed caption, etc... and hopefully, TVGOS.
Michael

Much more than an A/D is required (I think you really mean D/A as there will be no more analog broadcast after 2/17/09).

What's required is a box which takes in an ATSC signal, extracts the PSIP informataion (in other words and ATSC tuner), grabs the clock information, performs a D/A to convert that digital clock to a VBI-type stream on line 21 field 2, modulates that onto an NTSC channel and injects that back into the original ATSC signal and sends that out through an RF connector which would then be sent on to the DHG.

In other words, this requires a complicated solution since you have to create an NTSC signal and inject it into an ATSC signal without interfering with the original ATSC stream.

A simpler solution may be a box that could generate an NTSC clock based on a user configurable clock. That with a couple of trap filters could at least allow us to set the clock. These clock generators exist but they are designed for broadcast studios (where the clock gets created currently) and are very pricey.

-phil

Much more than an A/D is required (I think you really mean D/A as there will be no more analog broadcast after 2/17/09).

What's required is a box which takes in an ATSC signal, extracts the PSIP informataion (in other words and ATSC tuner), grabs the clock information, performs a D/A to convert that digital clock to a VBI-type stream on line 21 field 2, modulates that onto an NTSC channel and injects that back into the original ATSC signal and sends that out through an RF connector which would then be sent on to the DHG.

In other words, this requires a complicated solution since you have to create an NTSC signal and inject it into an ATSC signal without interfering with the original ATSC stream.

A simpler solution may be a box that could generate an NTSC clock based on a user configurable clock. That with a couple of trap filters could at least allow us to set the clock. These clock generators exist but they are designed for broadcast studios (where the clock gets created currently) and are very pricey.

-phil
Thanks for the correction, D/A instead of A/D. Fingers not in sync with eyes all the time.
Michael

Swapping the boards is what I had been thinking about as well.

Swapping boards may not be enough. In newer hard drives, a portion of the disk itself is reserved for the Host Protected Area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Host_Protected_Area). It may be necessary to copy this area too.

I haven't had a chance to check the Sony's drives for HPAs...

On a positive note...TVGOS for my FIOS lineup was missing two HD channels TNTHD and NatGeoHD. I contacted TVGOS engineering...they took my email and kept me updated. Low and behold about a month later the channels were added. Bravo.

Since you have a contact at TVGOS, perhaps you can tell him our concerned about losing the guide in 2009, and that we would like to support tv guide's effort to convice the FCC to impose tv guide and clock output requirements on the converter boxes if he could get us the name and address of the person at the FCC responsible for this issue.

Ray

This is the rub, IMO. While I could probably deal with wading through a slew of "UNKNOWN" listings based on time of day and date, there's absolutely NO WAY that my wife would.

How did your wife deal with VCR tapes? I assume you either didn't record shows or wrote the show name on the cassette. I never did that, instead my tapes were numbered and I printed a log with show listings by cassette number. Same thing can be done with the HDD. In fact, until recently, most of my shows had unknown titles, so I maintained a log of recorded shows. Much easier to do on the HDD since there are no tapes to deal with.
Lately the guide has been very reliable so I discontinued using the log.

Ray

After Comcast in Alexandria, VA finally switched to a digital line-up, I've been having problems with not receiving all my channels via CableCard on my Sony DHG 250. I have a Panasonic plasma, also with CC, and have no problems on that; I get all the channels in my package on the TV. I split the cable feed to each unit (no OTA capability in my building).

On the Sony DHG I get some (but not all) of Comcast's feed of the broadcast HD channels (e.g., ABCHD), and most of the old analog feeds (e.g., ABC analog), but none of the other digital channels in my package.

After nagging Comcast, they finally realized they had a rate code set incorrectly for the Sony's CC. While the tech was here, the programmer fixed the rate code and my channels appeared.

However, I soon discovered that when I turn off the Sony, those channels disappear again. I can get most (but not all) to come back on if I pop and reinsert the CC or do a warm reboot, but then they disappear again after a power off.

In addition to that, one HD channel I do get consistently won't record, either via a TVGOS scheduled recording or manually. The record light goes on for about a second, then nothing, as if I never scheduled the recording. I don't know if these two issues are related.

Before I call to nag Comcast for the umpteenth time, I'd like some advice from the more technically astute on this thread. Does this sound like a bad CC, or (shudder) an electrical problem with the Sony? Or is there something else I should try to do first?

Thanks,
Dan Spadoni

After Comcast in Alexandria, VA finally switched to a digital line-up, I've been having problems with not receiving all my channels via CableCard on my Sony DHG 250. I have a Panasonic plasma, also with CC, and have no problems on that; I get all the channels in my package on the TV. I split the cable feed to each unit (no OTA capability in my building).

On the Sony DHG I get some (but not all) of Comcast's feed of the broadcast HD channels (e.g., ABCHD), and most of the old analog feeds (e.g., ABC analog), but none of the other digital channels in my package.

After nagging Comcast, they finally realized they had a rate code set incorrectly for the Sony's CC. While the tech was here, the programmer fixed the rate code and my channels appeared.

However, I soon discovered that when I turn off the Sony, those channels disappear again. I can get most (but not all) to come back on if I pop and reinsert the CC or do a warm reboot, but then they disappear again after a power off.

In addition to that, one HD channel I do get consistently won't record, either via a TVGOS scheduled recording or manually. The record light goes on for about a second, then nothing, as if I never scheduled the recording. I don't know if these two issues are related.

Before I call to nag Comcast for the umpteenth time, I'd like some advice from the more technically astute on this thread. Does this sound like a bad CC, or (shudder) an electrical problem with the Sony? Or is there something else I should try to do first?

Thanks,
Dan Spadoni

The issue that you mentioned about the red dot coming up for a moment, then going away is probably a situation where you get the "Recording not permitted by service provider" error. I can't remember where it is, but there is a Recording History somewhere where you can look this up and verify that it is what you are getting.

I got this a couple of times on the HD channels for HBO and Cinemax, but I haven't seen it since then. I thought it was a temporary glitch.

...modulates that onto an NTSC channel and injects that back into the original ATSC signal and sends that out through an RF connector which would then be sent on to the DHG.

In other words, this requires a complicated solution since you have to create an NTSC signal and inject it into an ATSC signal without interfering with the original ATSC stream...Actually the resulting NTSC would likely only be modulated on channel 3/4. The best any such box would do with 8VSB is pass through, but you can bet it would still be up to us to deploy the trap filters to combine that channel 3/4 back into our RF input for possible use as a host channel.

That's why the whole thing seems so unlikely (at the consumer level) since most would never understand how to utilize such a function, nor would the vast majority most old sets even need it or use it. Perhaps none. All current VBI services I can think of would be demodded and utilized within whatever is used for a digital tuner. The old set doesn't come into play as more than a monitor and probably doesn't need time and date for that. Certainly *we* need something like it but *us* plus a narrow slice of other recorders and handful of plasma/DVRs do not make for a functional market to really consider.

Hopefully there will be some practical way for *us* to cobble together some versatile clock generator (if we can't find some VBI then) that is... those of *us* who can keep the DHG hard drives operational. ;)

How did your wife deal with VCR tapes?

Wrote on the labels.

Problem is: technology, when it works well, is a slippery slope. My wife is spoiled by PVRs that do what they are supposed to do. There's no going back, my friend... :p

Swapping boards may not be enough. In newer hard drives, a portion of the disk itself is reserved for the Host Protected Area (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Host_Protected_Area). It may be necessary to copy this area too.

I haven't had a chance to check the Sony's drives for HPAs...

Thanks for bringing up this point. My curiosity is now piqued...am going to order a spare drive today or tomorrow. If the drive has an HPA, one of my linux boxes will show it.

Before I call to nag Comcast for the umpteenth time, I'd like some advice from the more technically astute on this thread. Does this sound like a bad CC, or (shudder) an electrical problem with the Sony? Or is there something else I should try to do first?

Thanks,
Dan Spadoni

When you say turn off the HDD - does that mean with the
Remote Control Power Button?

You are not removing AC Power from the HDD - are you?
Removing AC causes a whole host of problems.

Assuming you are only using the NORMAL power down mode,
I would suspect your CableCard as being possibly flaky. I have
(5) HDDs installed here on Comcast - all with CabelCards. With
that said - it took Comcast 8 CableCards to get 5 goods one to
work in my installation. At least here in NH - the Cable Techs
know the Motorola cards are flaky and always bring more than
they need for that exact reason.

As for your Recording problem - Spiff72 - says he has been aware
of some programs being flagged as not being able to record. For
me - Comcast in NH - I have never experienced that.

In other words, this requires a complicated solution since you have to create an NTSC signal and inject it into an ATSC signal without interfering with the original ATSC stream.
The DVR has two RF inputs. So you could put the clock signal and the original ATSC stream on different inputs, instead of combining them onto the same input.

Finally gave up on cablecards in my 2 500s. The local TWcable doesn't want to support CC IMO, and many of the HD channels are 'switched' and will not tune with CC. The HDs that did tune could not be configured in TVGOS, (cableco assigns all HD channels to 1500+). plus other CC and cableco problems.

They gave me a SA8300 DVR so I could see some of these HD channels. Turned the 8300 back in after a month. Clunky to use, I prefer the TVguide guide anyway, and it didn't hold many recordings. I will miss DiscoveryHD and some HD movies. Plus it's a major pain just to deal with this cableco IMO.
back to basic cable (provided free in my bldg) and OTA HD for me.

Too bad....CC is such a great idea and the Sonys are sweet machines.

Too bad....CC is such a great idea and the Sonys are sweet machines.

Yes - I have heard many horror stories from TW customers.

Let's be THANKFUL Comcast is good to us and our Sony's.

The Flaky Cable card is not Comcast's Problem - it is Motorola's.
They have a new one in design they think will be available around
June and this one will be 2-way. I'm not sure what our Sony's
will do with a 2-way card :p

The DVR has two RF inputs. So you could put the clock signal and the original ATSC stream on different inputs, instead of combining them onto the same input.Unless you need both QAM and ATSC which I do.

In the unlikely possibility of such a full VBI box, I would *combine* it to channel 3 on either input. If we just have clock, of course that would only temporarily need to be connected infrequently to update the time.

Anyone using their HDD unit with FIOS/cablecard? FIOS recently changed their channel lineups. In the DC metro area we went over Tues (2/20.) As of this morning my TVGOS information hasn't been updated with the new channel lineup. Anyone else?

On a positive note...TVGOS for my FIOS lineup was missing two HD channels TNTHD and NatGeoHD. I contacted TVGOS engineering...they took my email and kept me updated. Low and behold about a month later the channels were added. Bravo.


Are you getting the guide data from fios cable or OTA?

Actually the resulting NTSC would likely only be modulated on channel 3/4. The best any such box would do with 8VSB is pass through, but you can bet it would still be up to us to deploy the trap filters to combine that channel 3/4 back into our RF input for possible use as a host channel.

That's why the whole thing seems so unlikely (at the consumer level) since most would never understand how to utilize such a function, nor would the vast majority most old sets even need it or use it. Perhaps none. All current VBI services I can think of would be demodded and utilized within whatever is used for a digital tuner. The old set doesn't come into play as more than a monitor and probably doesn't need time and date for that. Certainly *we* need something like it but *us* plus a narrow slice of other recorders and handful of plasma/DVRs do not make for a functional market to really consider.

Hopefully there will be some practical way for *us* to cobble together some versatile clock generator (if we can't find some VBI then) that is... those of *us* who can keep the DHG hard drives operational. ;)

Check this out:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6160587.html

Motorola is on top of this whole thing, at least that's what it looks like ot me. Comments?

Wayne

Interesting. I didn't notice Motorola in there but according to those dates that could be what VBI services are presently using?

So purchasing rights to the process makes it even less likely it will be included in some low cost converter unless it is really necessary and/or mandated? :(

Thanks for bringing up this point. My curiosity is now piqued...am going to order a spare drive today or tomorrow. If the drive has an HPA, one of my linux boxes will show it.Let us know. Apparently not much documentation for taft (http://www.vidstrom.net/stools/taft/) but it does look like some utilities will copy any host protected area. If you can comprehensively image the drive and move the board (prom) then the Sony shouldn't have any way to know the difference. A little risky, but those drives are so inexpensive if you start on the new one, you might figure out what is going on before *destroying* the working Sony drive.

Best of Luck... Go for it!

I thought of a clock signal experiment that I plan to perform after I get a weeks worth of daily pbs signals, from 2:59pm to 3:01pm. I plan to use a VCR with auto clock feature for this test, instead of my HDDs since I don't want to disturb the DVRs while the guide is working perfectly. If the signal sets the VCR clock, I am fairly confident that it will also set the HDD. Also, from past history, there will be several guide drop outs and clock loss before 2009. Those events will provide opportunity to see if i can set the HDD clock signal.

My first choice is to use a DVD recording, and if that doesn't set the VCR clock, I will repeat the experiment with VCR taped signal. In that case, I will need to use two of my VCRs. Before I do any of this stuff, I probably will run a test with a real time pbs signal to verify that it sets the VCR clock.

Ray

Let us know. Apparently not much documentation for taft (http://www.vidstrom.net/stools/taft/) but it does look like some utilities will copy any host protected area. If you can comprehensively image the drive and move the board (prom) then the Sony shouldn't have any way to know the difference. A little risky, but those drives are so inexpensive if you start on the new one, you might figure out what is going on before *destroying* the working Sony drive.

Best of Luck... Go for it!

LOL @ destroying a drive. If I kill it, I can always send back to WD for warranty replacement...

At one of my prior jobs, we had a hardware-based HDD duplicator that would do a bit-for-bit copy of any IDE drive. If I can't get one of these utilities to do it, maybe I'll send it to one of my old buddies there. They owe me a favor or two. ;)

Have you noticed ATSC packets registering anywhere besides in 9012? If I saw dynamic evidence over in 753159852 I might have more hope. It sure can read the closed captioning in ATSC but I'm rather skeptical it will get much else as it is.


If my DHG-250 loses the correct time, tuning to 28.1 (PBS digital Los Angeles area) and running the 9012 G* Factory Test will get the correct time right away. Only the ATSC test passes for a digital station. By the way, after the four tests are run, pressing a key <1>, <2>, <3>, or <4>, will repeat one of the corresponding four tests.

In the 753159852 info areas, I have seen ATSC packets being received if the DVR is tuned to 28.1. Note that the date and time shown in the upper left corner of the gray info area is GMT. Scroll down to Section VBI Data, and then scroll right to VBIDLSched. There is a list of DLID (Download ID?) , StID (Station ID?) and start times. One this afternoon was due at 1:46 or 1:49 GMT, depending on the StID. Scrolling back left to VBI Info, the entry DLTimer showed "2/23/07 1:46:00". So I suppose that means the DVR would attempt a download then (5:46 pm PST). Now also in the 753159852 menu, scroll up (or down) to Section ATSC/ATSC Slicer and see if the TVG packets number increases. Ordinarily, it increases about once a minute. I have seen this number increase rapidly starting at a download time, with the DVR tuned to 28.1. At 1:47 GMT today, the TVG packets number was increasing at about 50 packets a minute, for about 5 minutes. On other occasions I have seen it continue for some time. (Perhaps it already had this download, so this time it stopped.)

A test I haven't tried yet would be to leave the DVR tuned to 28.1 overnight and see it it gets the next day in the guide.

I am using OTA. I noticed Ads in the Guide window today (LA area).



cablenest

If my DHG-250 loses the correct time, tuning to 28.1 (PBS digital Los Angeles area) and running the 9012 G* Factory Test will get the correct time right away. Only the ATSC test passes for a digital station. By the way, after the four tests are run, pressing a key <1>, <2>, <3>, or <4>, will repeat one of the corresponding four tests...Thanks cablenest. So the only time you see ATSC packets registering over in 753159852 is during ATSC host channel download? No other time or ATSC channel for the Section ATSC/ATSC Slicer? Guess that makes sense, I'm reasonably certain there is no ATSC TVGOS activity in my area at this time. That would explain why that is always dead for me. Guess there is no reason for any other digital data over in those screens, as there seems to be (in others) when tuned to any analog VBI channel.

Perhaps the only way we can really prove it isn't sneaking off to analog somehow to fetch the time may be when analog is no longer? If you have no sure way to deprive it of the analog version of your host channel for a period of time to test? Of course TVGOS may need to tell it when it can use ATSC instead. (besides forced 9012 G*) But you have witnessed time discovery when the front panel showed 28.1 and it was only on the ATSC channel? In otherwords no way it could be somehow mapped to analog.

Do the 9012 G* Factory Tests reset (flush) listings until the next completed download?

...At one of my prior jobs, we had a hardware-based HDD duplicator that would do a bit-for-bit copy of any IDE drive. If I can't get one of these utilities to do it, maybe I'll send it to one of my old buddies there. They owe me a favor or two. ;)Appears to me that the logic board swapping is very nearly foolproof, provided you have an identical drive and the correct torx. Not clear about the need for the precise firmware revision.

But looks like if you can get *all* the raw sectors lined up on the destination platters, there shouldn't be any surprises from Sony. This may be easier than I was thinking. We're lucky they apparently didn't lock the drive, so we are spared all that white knuckle hotswapping. :)

Of course with xbox360 (http://www.360-hq.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1358) M$ hid some signed drive prom info on sector 16 which had to match the correct drive. Swapping the board solves that and getting all sectors including any possible HPA should hopefullly take care most other possible gotchas.

Interesting. I didn't notice Motorola in there but according to those dates that could be what VBI services are presently using?

So purchasing rights to the process makes it even less likely it will be included in some low cost converter unless it is really necessary and/or mandated? :(

No, it's not just the old stuff. See the "BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION" section for reference to digital television and ATSC.

Also, in the details:
DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE INVENTION

"The present invention provides a bandwidth efficient method and apparatus for using a digital television data stream to transport variable amounts of different types of information conventionally carried in the VBI portion of an analog television signal."

Don't let the patent throw you off though; everyone patents their circuits as best they can to keep people from blatantly copying them. When I worked at Alcatel, we patented our circuits, some asic designs, etc., to protect the idea of what we were doing. I don't want to get started on patents though. I am continually enraged at the patents granted for OBVIOUS stuff. I really only meant the link as a reference so that people here will know that the big companies are looking at how to take the data out of the digital streams and output it back into old time analog.

Or, I'm full of s**t. :-)

Wayne

Thanks cablenest. So the only time you see ATSC packets registering over in 753159852 is during ATSC host channel download? No other time or ATSC channel for the Section ATSC/ATSC Slicer? Guess that makes sense, I'm reasonably certain there is no ATSC TVGOS activity in my area at this time. That would explain why that is always dead for me. Guess there is no reason for any other digital data over in those screens, as there seems to be (in others) when tuned to any analog VBI channel.

Perhaps the only way we can really prove it isn't sneaking off to analog somehow to fetch the time may be when analog is no longer? If you have no sure way to deprive it of the analog version of your host channel for a period of time to test? Of course TVGOS may need to tell it when it can use ATSC instead. (besides forced 9012 G*) But you have witnessed time discovery when the front panel showed 28.1 and it was only on the ATSC channel? In otherwords no way it could be somehow mapped to analog.

Do the 9012 G* Factory Tests reset (flush) listings until the next completed download?

You're welcome, Ken.

First I need to correct the remark about the "four" tests in 9012 G* Factory Test -- it's five tests, each prompted by <1>, <2>, <3>, <4> or <5>, and the Flash test also passes (for all stations, analog and digital).

Doing the the 9012 G* Factory Tests does not flush the current TV Guide listings for me--it does not seem to have any ill effect. But it is important to navigate carefully to only the G* Factory Tests , since the other menu items along the way do things like formatting the hard drive or resetting everything to factory defaults.

Section ATSC/ATSC Slicer always shows the values increasing by 1 about once a minute for TVG, and less often for PAT and PMT (which mean?) if the DVR is tuned to either 28.1 or 28.2, and more rapidly at the start of a download, maybe continuing for the whole download. I have not been checking on this regularly. I do not recall the ATSC Slicer showing changes on other (digital) channels. I posted a while ago, when I was paying attention to all this, that: "If the DVR is tuned to either 28-1 or 28-2 during a download period when I enter the diagnostics menu, and go down 9 times and right 2 times arriving at Section Reception-VBI Stats, any one of these items can be seen increasing the numbers shown: Schedule Pkts, ShowPkts, DescPkts, CastPkts. This does not happen if the tuned station is 28 (PBS analog). Also, for either 28-1 or 28-2 during a download period , go down 3 times to Section ATSC-ATSC Slicer, and I see the entry TVG is updating (increasing)." However, I do recall seeing it get Schedule Pkts, ShowPkts, DescPkts, and CastPkts while tuned to analog 28, at a later date. Then I gave up on trying to figure out what it was doing.

In 753159852 Section Other-Clocks 2 I have seen Failing Clock Chan have "0:28-1" , and the Clock Set Chan have "0:28-1". I understand your point about sneaking off, or otherwise "remapping" to analog ch 28 (which is listed as the host station), but from the above paragraph it seems that it could not have been doing that, since the DVR only has one tuner. Currently the Clock values are both "fffffffd", whatever that means.


These units were made with HDMI and cablecard support, which to me indicates that they were forward looking in design. But then there is the USB port, which was only for firmware upgrades? The ATSC standard was established before 2000, so I can't help but think that Sony and TVGOnline well knew what they were doing -- why else have all the stuff about ATSC in the service menus? It was just today that I started getting ads in the guide area, even though ads were already shown in the pictures in the TVGO manual.

Perhaps in a while I will try leaving it tuned to 28.1 overnight as an experiment. I am wondering: Will the DVR download listings if it is on, but tuned to the right station, whether analog for VBI or digital for ATSC? Has anyone tried this? Possibly it cannot do station timeshift recording and listings downloading at the same time (the instructions say that the unit must be off to download listings).


Thanks for commenting.

cablenest

Perhaps in a while I will try leaving it tuned to 28.1 overnight as an experiment. I am wondering: Will the DVR download listings if it is on, but tuned to the right station, whether analog for VBI or digital for ATSC? Has anyone tried this? Possibly it cannot do station timeshift recording and listings downloading at the same time (the instructions say that the unit must be off to download listings).


Thanks for commenting.

cablenest

Quick reply in case you're still up; it will NOT get listings if the unit is turned on.

Wayne

Tonite, I noticed for the first time that Ads have filled the Ads area in the TV Guide. They are static ads but do rotate between 3 of them when you scroll through the TV guide listings. If you move the cursor over to it, the listings area displays more information that pertains to the Ad. My box is hooked up to analog basic cable provided by Time Warner in Fullerton, Southern California.
http://spatula-city.com/Temp/TVGuideAds.jpg

No, it's not just the old stuff. See the "BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION" section for reference to digital television and ATSC.

Also, in the details:
DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF THE INVENTION

"The present invention provides a bandwidth efficient method and apparatus for using a digital television data stream to transport variable amounts of different types of information conventionally carried in the VBI portion of an analog television signal."

Don't let the patent throw you off though; everyone patents their circuits as best they can to keep people from blatantly copying them. When I worked at Alcatel, we patented our circuits, some asic designs, etc., to protect the idea of what we were doing. I don't want to get started on patents though. I am continually enraged at the patents granted for OBVIOUS stuff. I really only meant the link as a reference so that people here will know that the big companies are looking at how to take the data out of the digital streams and output it back into old time analog.

Or, I'm full of s**t. :-)

Wayne

This baby here:
http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/products/dct3400/
Does NOT have an analog tuner, yet has coax out for old style TV's, and supports closed captioning on older tv's. See this:

Problem: No closed captions
display

Solution:
Verify on the User Settings menu that closed captions
are enabled on the cable terminal.
Verify that closed captions are enabled on the TV.

It doesn't say a word about the TV has to be digital. It also specifically mentions RF input only tv's and VCR's. So, the circuitry is all in that box. It also supports TVguide. If they just make a little set top for us, we're home.

Wayne

This baby here:
http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/products/dct3400/
Does NOT have an analog tuner, yet has coax out for old style TV's, and supports closed captioning on older tv's. See this:

Problem: No closed captions
display

Solution:
Verify on the User Settings menu that closed captions
are enabled on the cable terminal.
Verify that closed captions are enabled on the TV.

It doesn't say a word about the TV has to be digital. It also specifically mentions RF input only tv's and VCR's. So, the circuitry is all in that box. It also supports TVguide. If they just make a little set top for us, we're home.

WayneThat has been in place for some time. My ATSC tuners already put closed captions in baseband (VBI) and in HD outputs. They also can put it onscreen, in other words I can have two layers (STB and Display) going simultaneously. So these boxes (including Sony DHG-HDD) are already passing ATSC data to VBI. So why not TVGOS? I believe it would need that extra pipeline also routed to the VBI. Will we see it? :confused:

...These units were made with HDMI and cablecard support, which to me indicates that they were forward looking in design. But then there is the USB port, which was only for firmware upgrades? The ATSC standard was established before 2000, so I can't help but think that Sony and TVGOnline well knew what they were doing -- why else have all the stuff about ATSC in the service menus? It was just today that I started getting ads in the guide area, even though ads were already shown in the pictures in the TVGO manual.

Perhaps in a while I will try leaving it tuned to 28.1 overnight as an experiment. I am wondering: Will the DVR download listings if it is on, but tuned to the right station, whether analog for VBI or digital for ATSC? Has anyone tried this? Possibly it cannot do station timeshift recording and listings downloading at the same time (the instructions say that the unit must be off to download listings).Thanks much cablenest for the very precise observations. You have increased my optimism about the *possibility* of clockset over ATSC if we can just rule out analog 28. If you have watched that happen (clockset apparently can happen with the unit on?) and it never left 28.1 that is very encouraging.

I just can't imagine why both Sony and TVGOS techs would allegedly make claims they aren't compatible in a total vacuum. So perhaps there is still some hitch related to listings. But as long as we can set the clock I'll be happy enough.

If they can transition flawlessly (as was surely planned) why would anyone be telling us anything otherwise? BTW I'd guess all the speculation about converter boxes passing VBI TVGOS probably originated right here in this thread.

Hopefully we can keep with this and come to something definitive. :)

...Section ATSC/ATSC Slicer always shows the values increasing by 1 about once a minute for TVG, and less often for PAT and PMT (which mean?) if the DVR is tuned to either 28.1 or 28.2, and more rapidly at the start of a download, maybe continuing for the whole download... It seems doing a G* Factory Test on any ATSC channel creates 1,3 or,5 PAT and/or PMT during the test. These show up over in Section ATSC/ATSC Slicer until the next G* Factory Test on another channel. No TVG for me.

Nothing starts moving over in 753159852 until a G* Factory Test on the current channel. The only thing I see keep advancing after the G* Factory Test is on the analog host channel. ATSC are static after the initial G* Test. I did all this before, probably the last time it was discused here. Don't know what made me think 9012/TVGuide/G* Factory Test killed listings.

Anyway cablenest, what do you see in Section Reception-Slicing after a G* Factory Test on 28.1? Do they keep going up (last column) current channel in that section, for instance during a download?

Anyone else with ATSC TVGOS in service: can you set your clock doing a 9012 G* Factory Test on a digital channel?

Are you getting the guide data from fios cable or OTA?

OTA. I was unable to get valid VBI with TVGOS info off any of the possible (ie PBS) FIOS analog channels. I think the general conclusion is Verizon doesn't pass it along. As to why they couldn't and shouldn't.....

Tonite, I noticed for the first time that Ads have filled the Ads area in the TV Guide. They are static ads but do rotate between 3 of them when you scroll through the TV guide listings. If you move the cursor over to it, the listings area displays more information that pertains to the Ad. My box is hooked up to analog basic cable provided by Time Warner in Fullerton, Southern California.


I'm also getting them OTA, so the ads have come to Southern California.

SNIP
Section ATSC/ATSC Slicer always shows the values increasing by 1 about once a minute for TVG, and less often for PAT and PMT (which mean?) if the DVR is tuned
SNIP


I looked up these acronyms once, and found that they stood for:
Program Association Tables(PAT) and Program Map Tables(PMT)

I don't know what they are, but they seem to be related to the actual decoding of incoming MPEG2 streams.

I googled "pmt pat psip" (without quotes and found a lot of hits).

This was one of the pages I found (with very technical info):
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/news/n_measuring_the_asi.shtml

When you say turn off the HDD - does that mean with the
Remote Control Power Button?

You are not removing AC Power from the HDD - are you?
Removing AC causes a whole host of problems.

Assuming you are only using the NORMAL power down mode,
I would suspect your CableCard as being possibly flaky. I have
(5) HDDs installed here on Comcast - all with CabelCards. With
that said - it took Comcast 8 CableCards to get 5 goods one to
work in my installation. At least here in NH - the Cable Techs
know the Motorola cards are flaky and always bring more than
they need for that exact reason.

As for your Recording problem - Spiff72 - says he has been aware
of some programs being flagged as not being able to record. For
me - Comcast in NH - I have never experienced that.

Gentlemen, thanks for the replies. I'm simply using the remote to turn off the Sony - not disconnecting the AC power cord. Much earlier in this thread I had seen issues such as yours with needing to go through multiple CC's, so I'm hopeful that (or some other problem at Comcast's end) is the problem and I'll call them once again. BTW, Comcast here provides Scientific Atlanta CC's, not Motorola, which of course is no guarantee of being "better quality".

In the meantime, I'll try to find the Recoding History data Spiff72 mentioned.

Thanks again.
Dan Spadoni

BTW, Comcast here provides Scientific Atlanta CC's, not Motorola, which of course is no guarantee of being "better quality".

Dan Spadoni

Well I guess any and all CableCard comments are not relative.
I know it's a standard - I'm surprised they are using two brands.

GOOD LUCK.

update for Seattle viewers

I spoke to engineers at ION (33) and KBTS (28) yesterday about adding their sub-channel listings to TVGOS. Neither one of them was aware of the TVGOS transmission by the host KCTS. Both seemed eager to do what is necessary to make that happen.

I know this only affects a small number of people on this thread so I'm also posting it to the TVGOS and the Seattle-OTA threads

Certainly *we* need something like it but *us* plus a narrow slice of other recorders and handful of plasma/DVRs do not make for a functional market to really consider.Handful of plasma/DVR's?

TVGOS has been around for over ten years. It's been included in many models of analog CRT TV's (RCA, G.E., Proscan), and many, many models of VCR's (RCA, G.E., Proscan, Sony, Panasonic, etc.).

While there may be a smaller percentage of people still using those VCR's nowadays (although I wouldn't underestimate that), I'd imagine TONS of those TV's are still in use. In fact, my sister has one in her bedroom right now, and has the cable coax hooked up to it and uses the guide. It's easier to scroll through than many cable guides, especially once you set it up to your preference. I will admit though, that it's probably somewhat less important and depended upon in any TV than it is built-into a recording device.

And like myself and others have mentioned in this post in the past- don't forget about TVGOS's dependence on the ad revenue they get from the service - that's just one good incentive right there.

I'm not saying there will or won't be a workaround to keep the service going on all of the existing units out there - I'm just as clueless, and even doubtful at times, as anyone here. But I just like to clarify the misconception that ocassionally someone in this thread has that this only pertains to a "handful" of users.

Heck, I've even got 4 devices myself that have TVGOS - 3 DVR's and one TV. I'm actually only using 1 currently (the Sony DVR - and except for that component, I did not really specifically buy the others just because of the TVGOS), but if I weren't using that I'd surely have it up and running in another. And if I were to upgrade any specific type of component, I'd probably hand a unit down (or sell it) to someone who may very well use the guide, just as was the case with my sister's TV, which her husband got from a co-worker.

While the actual usage of any of those older units, and especially the dependence on the guide, is definitely debatable, it still was included in hundreds of thousands of sold items over the years. We seem to forget that not everyone else can afford to "keep up" with the latest technology and depends a lot on older units - and, even those of us who can still have a lot of these TV's in other rooms. It's not an uncommon occurance at all for a TV to easily last over ten years.

Just wanted to make that clear, as many people seem to only think that the service just sprang up with the advent of DVR/DVD recorders and newer, digital TV's.

(We here have to remember that, sometimes, in our quest to NOT be so "narrow-minded", we actually can come across as being just that, although, many people are often just not aware about the history of TVGOS - and that's really my main point.)

...Just wanted to make that clear, as many people seem to only think that the service just sprang up with the advent of DVR/DVD recorders and newer, digital TV's.

(We here have to remember that, sometimes, in our quest to NOT be so "narrow-minded", we actually can come across as being just that, although, many people are often just not aware about the history of TVGOS - and that's really my main point.)And there were all the earlier versions... and several variations on the theme, came and went (http://www.starsight.com/#StarSight equipped product does not work properly without the StarSight signal. What do I do).

The only point I'm making is how very few items will be debilitatingly hobbled (even dysfunctional) without TVGOS, after analog shut off.

If we can easily set our clock in 2009, it really doesn't even include us. :)

[QUOTE=KenL]And there were all the earlier versions... and several variations on the theme, came and [url=http://www.starsight.com/#StarSight equipped [/url]./QUOTE]


Wow, I only vaguely remembered that one. (How did you manage to dig that one up? :))

I just remembered the original TVGOS from when it was called "Guide +". That's the one in the older TV's (and VCR's) like my sister's, and I know that they've kept that and all the earliest versions still working.

And they've just updated the version in the Sony, so just showing that much commitment to keeping all the past and existing versions working and as up to date as possible through the years kind of keeps me optimistic that they will at least do as much as they can to keep the older ones going. I do know though, that only the 8th version of the guide (and newer 9th), like the one in the Sony, is the only one they can add channels to without having to delete ones. Jan J in the LG DVR thread got them to add Oxygen to the 3410a's guide, which is V7, in our area, but they had to drop one channel to do it. The newer versions may actually have a finite number of slots to work with (not sure), but at least they've got the capacity in reserve. They just added over 50 OTA channels (easy) to my guide.

I still think that someone will come up with some kind of converter box, if that's really the only way. And probably someone like Radio Shack will have it on their shelves. They always seem to be the ones who carry that kind of "adaptive" stuff.

No matter what the future holds, I just don't even really think about it and I just enjoy my units fully in the present. I'm certainly not gonna worry needlessly and drive myself half-nuts over it :cool:.

Hi,

I'm a new HDD250 owner. I was down in Harrisonburg for work and wandered into the Crutchfield store. They had one HDD250 left and I swiped it.

Anyways, I set it up last night and got it working fine. I did the standard set-up with cable and it found all of the channels that my QAM TV has. This morning, the TV Guide filled in and I have a load of listings.

Here's my problem. The display on the unit itself still says "Welcome" and the power indicator is still on. There's an "06" on the display itself.

It doesn't display the time or channel and when recording, the red light doesn't light up.

Also, it seems that I can only turn the unit on/off with the remote as the buttons on the unit don't seem to do anything.

The "Welcome" indicator stays on even when I turn the unit off via the remote.

I bought the unit as a return, so could the previous owner set something on it that makes it behave like this?

Thanks.

ft