...is the SDE on this unit?

Projecting a 100" diagonal image (100% light controlled room), at what distance does the screen door disappear?
Labled a "gem", and priced to move, I'm trying to determine if I'm better living with or without one.

For advanced viewers, (guitarman comes to mind) how well does it hold up to its sibblings, the H57 and H77 when watching DVDs?. If it's simply a matter of more viewing distance, I see no reason not to pull the trigger. Thanks guys.

Projecting a 100" diagonal image (100% light controlled room), at what distance does the screen door disappear?
I sit at 10 ft from an 84" picture, where I don't really notice SD, even on bright features. Moving the head forwards, it starts becoming obvious somewhere around 9 ft and less, which is around 1.5x the screen width. So for your 100" screen the SD should start disappearing at around 11 ft from the screen. Mind you, this isn't an on/off sort of thing--even at the perceptive threshold (say at exactly 1.5x) where you can still make out the SD if you look for it, it fades in and out of perception as you follow the on-screen action. At the ~1.65x distance I sit at even the pixelation is barely noticeable, mainly in small text and other very small features. I personally consider 1.6x-1.7x very acceptable. I've certainly enjoyed the H31 immensely for the last few weeks that I've had it, and can easily see myself enjoying it for another year or two, bulb willing.

>14.5833333' it would not be evident ;)

SDE is a little subjective, especially since it bothers some more than others or is perceived by some more easily than others is probably a better way to say it

i don't see it 12' from a 92" diag (45x80)

if i peer my head in about 2' and look for it, i see it but barely

the picture is incredible, but i'll be frank, if you plan on using it with a htpc, i'd read the last dozen pages of the H31 thread before you make up your mind. htpc users have had some serious issues with a scan line/tearing issue and we haven't been able to get it resolved yet. jason aka dagamepimp is being sent an h31 to see if can figure it out but that could be a bit. if you don't plan on using it with a htpc, then i'd say what are you waiting for.

the picture is incredible, but i'll be frank, if you plan on using it with a htpc, i'd read the last dozen pages of the H31 thread before you make up your mind. htpc users have had some serious issues with a scan line/tearing issue and we haven't been able to get it resolved yet. jason aka dagamepimp is being sent an h31 to see if can figure it out but that could be a bit. if you don't plan on using it with a htpc, then i'd say what are you waiting for.

Thanks, billymac. Indeed, HTPC is a major source with me. Especially since I prefer using zoomplayer.
I did go back and read the last dozen or so pages. From what I gathered, it's getting the unit to work via DVI.
I do have other options including my HDMI upscaling Tosh 5970 to work with.

BTW, if guitarman's screenshots are any indication comparing the 31 with the 77 I must conclude the differences to be minor. (At least as far as DVDs go).

Speaking of which, where's Tom at a time like this? I guess I'm waiting for him to pipe in and say something profound like 'I prefer the 31...by sitting three feet further back my DVDs look just as good and my new motorcycle looks even better'. Thanks

yeah, actually there's two problems, the digital sync AND the tearing issue

the tearing is visible on both types of inputs, but only via htpc

dvi from stand-alone is fine

Back to your original question: "If viewing distance is the only factor, then so be it" or something like that...pull the trigger.

I sit around 11 feet on a 92" screen, and I'll be honest, I DO see some screen door. Only in static whites...like credits, or large frozen shots of something bright. That rarely happens, and when it does, it doesn't bother. The opening scene of LOTR Two Towers with the big New Zealand snow-covered mountains has NOTHING in there at all where SDE is considered. It's crisp.

I am about 11ft back on a 60" wide screen (2.2 to 1 ratio). Even at the age of 43 my eyes are sharp enough to see SDE in bright white areas. Regardless, the overall picture is quite enjoyable and I only tend to notice if the movie is particulary boring ;-) I would love to have a 720p projector but at a 2.5x difference in price I can easily live with a bit of SDE.

yeah, actually there's two problems, the digital sync AND the tearing issue

the tearing is visible on both types of inputs, but only via htpc

dvi from stand-alone is fine

Which DVI standalone is recommended with the H31? I have a Zenith DVB318 and the component out to my Pannie plasma has a horizontal shift. Have not tried DVI as I don't have a DVI->HDMI adapter.

yeah, actually there's two problems, the digital sync AND the tearing issue

the tearing is visible on both types of inputs, but only via htpc

dvi from stand-alone is fine

Ok, my Tosh 5970 upscales via HDMI (480p,720p, and 1080i). With a HDMI>DVI adapter I should be in good shape right? Or is it time to PM Tom?

I had my heart set on an H31/Da-lite 52x92 (106" diagonal) High Power screen. When I started reading all of the posts that stronly recommend a 2x viewing distance, I started doing some measuring. 2x brings me 15.3' back from the screen. This will be a problem in my space.

Switching to a 45x80 (92" diagonal), at 2x, brings my seating to 13.3', which is much better for room layout.

BUT I WANT THE BIGGER SCREEN!!! I WANT IT BAD!!! When I move out of this space (in approx 1 year), and am able to create a dedicated HT room, I would much prefer starting out with the 106".

Three options spring to mind:

1. Get the smaller screen and shut up.

2. Get the 106" and sit at 13-14' (1.73x viewing distance)and hope to not see SDE.

3. Get the 106" and not use the entire screen. I assume this will be problematic, since these screens have nice dark borders around the viewing portion to cut down on glare and reflections. I will be defeating this.

Ready to pull the trigger, but I need some sage advice. Thank you very much.

Nicholas B

Three options spring to mind:

1. Get the smaller screen and shut up.

2. Get the 106" and sit at 13-14' (1.73x viewing distance)and hope to not see SDE.

3. Get the 106" and not use the entire screen. I assume this will be problematic, since these screens have nice dark borders around the viewing portion to cut down on glare and reflections. I will be defeating this.

Ready to pull the trigger, but I need some sage advice. Thank you very much.

Nicholas B

In regards to SDE on the H31, i am sure your mileage will vary but 1.5 is fine for me. SDE again is a subtle thing at that distance it is only from a few feet that you really know what it is. I was commenting that other day that i have looked at DLP screens for years and not realized there is such a thing as SDE, to much information i guess and you stop simply enjoying the show.

some more options for screens - build a do it yourself screen, go over to that section, behr flat ultra pure white on a smooth surface is pretty good, use fabric as a mask and you can get any size you want, cheap and throw away, there are also some dealers selling a cheap screen with the projector

buy a nice screen when you move into your new HTA

you can also use fabric to mask your larger screen if that is an issue

i have some 'curtains' to mask my screen when it is 4:3

i will tell you one thing, the projector is amazing and at the price point i think sitting on the wall and not getting the H31 or 4805 is pretty silly but that is just my opinion, i just got the H31

i think if you are really obsessed with screen door and have good vision you will see it at 1.5 at about 2, i don't think you will see it at all, you can also try to blur the image a tad with the focus

if you are like me and have family friends over to watch, don't tell them about SDE and they will be quite happy.

finally, of course, resolution will go up and price come down for projectors you can just wait for the next crop of 1280x720 DLP projectors to come down,

personally, i am waiting for the 1080P projectors to come down the road and be affordable

also, i believe that the limiting factor is screen technology and screens like the Sony blackscreen or something similar will proliferate and come down in price. Afterall, the black scenes can be no blacker than the screen itself.

David

Ok, my Tosh 5970 upscales via HDMI (480p,720p, and 1080i). With a HDMI>DVI adapter I should be in good shape right? Or is it time to PM Tom?

you'll be fine

Nicholas B, my suggest would be to go with the 92. From what I've read, and my personal theory to get the best pic, is to pick the biggest size you want, then take it down one notch. You get a brighter picture because the light isn't being spread so much. I also found with my 92", that if I imagined a 106" I'd probably get fatigued watching a screen that big. Remember, 92" is still almost 8 feet diagonal!

Just my suggestion, but I understand that urge to go huge. Good luck!

Ok, my Tosh 5970 upscales via HDMI (480p,720p, and 1080i). With a HDMI>DVI adapter I should be in good shape right? Or is it time to PM Tom?

It does 1024X768 also. I have this player. I'm one of the few that gave it a good review. It works well with the H31. Even with a not so good 30ft DVI cable the projectors will see the signal. 720p should look the sharpest to you. The H31's scaler does a clean job scaling the different resolutions.

I bought a Toshiba 5970 from BB open box with coupon. It's easy to forget
about the poor button response when it's paired with the H31.

The picture to me is stunning through HDMi-->DVI.

I guess about the only thing holding me back now is those 'inky' blacks. Lord knows I'm so spoiled by my CRT steup. The reported 3000:1 CR via the Dark Chip 2 should get me close...I believe.

Tom, just so I don't fool myself, the H31 should be up to throwing a 100" (1.85) image at 15 feet (in theater mode, in a light controlled room) matched with a 15 foot viewing distance?

What I don't want is 'foggy' blacks with loss of shadow detail or have to settle for a 70" screen to get the 'punch' I desire. Will the H31 deliver in spades, or should I be looking elsewhere?

CMRA, you reminded my of another question regarding my 92" vs. 106" dilemma. Because of the smaller size, will there be a discernable increase in 'punch' with the 92"?

CMRA, you reminded my of another question regarding my 92" vs. 106" dilemma. Because of the smaller size, will there be a discernable increase in 'punch' with the 92"?

The inverse square law for light assures it to a mathematical certainty. However, the human eye dilates to overcome this, and it is not readily apparent.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/isql.html

The above link explains. Just know the light projecting to the screen is not linear. It's exponential.

Now that didn't take long. Just a few hours reading one of Tom's marathon threads.
Hope Optoma packs this puppy well...it's coming via UPS.

Good luck, CMRA. Please keep us posted on your impressions. I'm about a week behind you.

Good luck, CMRA. Please keep us posted on your impressions. I'm about a week behind you.

well, i am about two weeks ahead of both of you, and i don't think you will be disappointed,

turn off the lights at night and sit back and enjoy and put all of the crap behind you, and do yourself a favor, don't tell anyone else about rainbows, sde, contrast, macroblocking, etc. and just let them enjoy the show

David

Good advice, David. There is only one thing I am agonizing about (I know, I know...), but I really need to decide between the 92" and 106" screens. I'm right on the cusp. Right now, Tommyj3's advice is the way I'm leaning, but if anyone else could weigh in, I would greatly appreciate it.

Nicholas B

Good advice, David. There is only one thing I am agonizing about (I know, I know...), but I really need to decide between the 92" and 106" screens. I'm right on the cusp. Right now, Tommyj3's advice is the way I'm leaning, but if anyone else could weigh in, I would greatly appreciate it.

Nicholas B
I would recommend waiting until you get your H31 and then try projecting a 92" and 106" image on a white wall or bedsheet and see what you prefer. People's tolerance of SDE and pixellation varies, and it's risky to base your decision on what other people like.

I like Tommyj3's advice. When you first get a PJ you're blown away by the sheer size of the image. During the "honeymoon" phase you're less aware of image issues such as pixellation. As you get used to the size of the image, these issues become more and more annoying and you may wish that you picked the smaller screen.

Since you're getting a HiPower screen, you may also want to get an ND2 filter to cut the projector's brightness. SDE is more obvious with high brightness and the HighPower may emphasize the SDE. The filter may help here.

Good luck and enjoy your PJ! :)

Thanks Jeff. Good advice.

Don't underestimate SDE. It's very distracting for me and I can still see it at a viewing distance of 2.5x screen width on a 1024x768 PJ.
Imho anyone who can't count the pixels from 1.5x screen width on a 720p PJ should have his eyes checked.

I would recommend waiting until you get your H31 and then try projecting a 92" and 106" image on a white wall or bedsheet and see what you prefer. People's tolerance of SDE and pixellation varies, and it's risky to base your decision on what other people like.
I'll second that. Or, order the H31 from one of those places that bundle a free 100" screen, which is a decent size and will allow you play around with the image size. When you're happy, then blow your money on the fancy screen.

Don't underestimate SDE. It's very distracting for me and I can still see it at a viewing distance of 2.5x screen width on a 1024x768 PJ.
Imho anyone who can't count the pixels from 1.5x screen width on a 720p PJ should have his eyes checked.
Again, you're confusing SDE and pixelation. You will be able to see pixels from MUCH further away than SDE. I very seriously doubt that you can see the inter-pixel lines from 2.5x away, unless you're using some 1st gen LCD projector with discrete panels for each pixel.

I was contemplating a 92" or 106" just as you. It's a personal choice and I ended up
with the 92" because it fits well within my current design. My seating varies from 13' - 18' feet back.

92" is smaller than 106" but don't think it's small :)

Now that didn't take long. Just a few hours reading one of Tom's marathon threads.
Hope Optoma packs this puppy well...it's coming via UPS.

CMRA,

I recognize your handle on these forums for a few years now, but forgot what projector you had before?
(or still have?)

Whatcha coming from?

Fleaman

I guess about the only thing holding me back now is those 'inky' blacks. Lord knows I'm so spoiled by my CRT steup. The reported 3000:1 CR via the Dark Chip 2 should get me close...I believe.
I thought you were a CRT guy now. Is this just to augment your CRT setup?

As far as blacks, if you get 2k:1 or even close to 3k:1 (I haven't seen what people get with these after calibration) there are still going to be dark cases where the CRT has the obvious advantage in blacks. I don't remember what CRT you have, so maybe you'll like the high ANSI CR that I would assume the H31 has in brighter scenes. I'm assuming the H31 is going to have brighter whites than your CRT, so a gray screen could help with ANSI CR in your room even more (if you don't have a black room). In the meantime, you might want to pick up a 2x neutral density filter for under $20 to see how you like it with lower whites and blacks.

--Darin

I thought you were a CRT guy now. Is this just to augment your CRT setup?

As far as blacks, if you get 2k:1 or even close to 3k:1 (I haven't seen what people get with these after calibration) there are still going to be dark cases where the CRT has the obvious advantage in blacks. I don't remember what CRT you have, so maybe you'll like the high ANSI CR that I would assume the H31 has in brighter scenes. I'm assuming the H31 is going to have brighter whites than your CRT, so a gray screen could help with ANSI CR in your room even more (if you don't have a black room). In the meantime, you might want to pick up a 2x neutral density filter for under $20 to see how you like it with lower whites and blacks.

--Darin

Time to confess. Yes, I'm a CRT fan first and foremost. Make that a 9"LC fan. On the other hand, my HT roots go back to my Z1 (which I still use it today for CGI and cartoon material.) I suppose it's safe to say I straddle the fence. Though I'm pro CRT, I'm not anti-digital. And, let's face it, digital keeps getting better and cheaper all the time. I'm taking a bit of a plunge on the H31. I figure if I absolutely can't live with it because I'm spoiled by CRT blacks or the resolution is just too low, I'll be out the restocking fee. But, I doubt at this writing that will be the case. I'm anticipating it will make a welcome addition and find its place amongst my display devices. I don't expect perfection...how could I?
Anyway, I'll be able to put the unit through its paces and get a feel for the dark chip2. I'll also be able to determine if a videophile can be happy with svga resolution. Wish me luck.

CMRA,

I recognize your handle on these forums for a few years now, but forgot what projector you had before?
(or still have?)

Whatcha coming from?

Fleaman

Actually, it will be two years in July. I was all questions and no answers back then. Two years with my 'new' passion has changed all that.

Z1...but calibrated CMRA style. That puppy out of the box is pretty lame. However, a few user and service menu adjustments can bring it to life.
Also, in my corral is a 9" Barco, 36" HDTV direct view CRT, and a 1920x1200 LCD display.

CMRA,

I (and more importantly the forum) would be real interested in your thoughts on the H31 after you play with it for a while. I have a H31 on the way too (currently running the H30).

You could post your impressions here, but the main H31 forum might be a better place. Your thoughts will be very interesting considering where you're coming from.

If your 2x screen width sitting distance, I doubt you'll have a problem with the resolution. 1.7x might even be fine depending on your eyesight and what you're use to. But ultimately, it would be interesting what your thoughts on this is too.

Fleaman

CMRA,

I (and more importantly the forum) would be real interested in your thoughts on the H31 after you play with it for a while. I have a H31 on the way too (currently running the H30).

You could post your impressions here, but the main H31 forum might be a better place. Your thoughts will be very interesting considering where you're coming from.

If your 2x screen width sitting distance, I doubt you'll have a problem with the resolution. 1.7x might even be fine depending on your eyesight and what you're use to. But ultimately, it would be interesting what your thoughts on this is too.

Fleaman

I'd be more than happy to oblige. I'll even take digital Darin's suggestions to heart (who know's more than he on that subject?) In fact, last night I rehung my 'gray' screen for the first time in months in anticipation of the new arrival.
BTW, I'm so cool, calm, and collected this time around, I didn't even have the H31 overnighted. I'm thinking with a gray or light fusion screen I may just be able to pull off 1.5 to 1. We shall see.

CMRA,

Also looking forward to your comments on the H31. I am considering replacing my LT150 XGA which delivers 576p for HD and having difficulty stepping down to 480p, but would like to have better CR of the darkchip, low fan noise, and no lightspill of a 16:9 sealed PJ like the Optoma H31.

I would like to second (or third) Jeff's suggestion to get the projector hung and operating first, before you make a decision on screen size.

After the projector is set up swing by Joann's Fabrics (ask your wife where it is) and pick up a piece of blackout cloth. It is a white fabric with an almost rubbery texture on one side. You can get a piece about 10' long by 60" wide for $15.

Great for testing out what you would like for a screen size and how far back you need to be. The blackout cloth is not as good as a "real" screen, but it is an excellent "starter" choice to get you up and running... only your eyes can make the final determination, so why not wait until it is set up in your environment where you can make the choice?

I'm thinking with a gray or light fusion screen I may just be able to pull off 1.5 to 1. We shall see.
I'll be interested to hear what you find out. That sounds very close to me for 854 horizontal pixels. About the same pixels per degree as 1.0x for a 1280x720 DLP. I can do about 1.3x (13' from a 10' wide screen) with a DarkChip3 1280x720 DLP, but that is about the limit.

--Darin

I'll be interested to hear what you find out. That sounds very close to me for 854 horizontal pixels. About the same pixels per degree as 1.0x for a 1280x720 DLP. I can do about 1.3x (13' from a 10' wide screen) with a DarkChip3 1280x720 DLP, but that is about the limit.

--Darin

Thanks for the input, Darin. I'm in your domain now, so I'll pay close attention. If I can get a 13 to 15' viewing distance on a 100" 16x9 screen, I'll be in good shape.
I was just reading about DarkChip3 this morning. No dots. And, to ice the cake...with 1080p...soon. Combined with something on the order of BluRay and watchout! Nice time to be alive...hope I can afford it.

hope I can afford it

You can! It's just a matter of how long you are willing to wait.

I just took the plunge. Ordered the H31 and the 92" Da-light Model B High Power. They should arrive around the 6th of June. My Panasonic S97 already arrived and is just sitting in its box, as lonely as can be. I'm so psyched.

Nicholas B

You can! It's just a matter of how long you are willing to wait.

Nicholas B

...or the LAW of deminishing returns.

Yes indeed...the wait. I was just surfing through ebay and sure enough projectors less than two or three years old (some lightly used or NEVER used) are going dirt cheap. Only the newest generation seem to hold their price.

But, it's the gap on new units that always slay me. Typically, a good current generation dpj will set you back about a grand (street prices). The next step up (in resolution) doubles the price. And, the step after that triples the the price. (SVGA vs XGA vs WXGA). It's like 90% for 1K, 95% for 2k, and 98% for 3k. If you want a 100% unit, 8 to 10k. Don't believe me? Check out street pricing on the Optoma H series: 31, 57, 77, 79.

So...how do they get away with this? I'm thinking 2 years from now when 1080p is the norm, today's H79 will be tomorrow's H31. I can't wait! (Oh, yes I can. It's "only how long I'm willing to wait")

Yea, but 2+ years from now, 2160p maybe just around the corner, you know, for that HD image that is so smooth and life like, with new darkchip 7!

It is classic Law of Diminishing Returns. But I believe it will level off in the future. Projectors are, as compared to CRTs and even plasma, "newer technology" as far as home entertainment. Projection in the home is not some sort of box (albeit a thin box) sitting in your living space, as we have had since the 1950's. My opinion is that CRT technology/prices has leveled off. The "gap", as you put it, has been getting smaller and smaller. Perhaps this is the technology death knell that signals when something is about to become obsolete?

Projectors are just getting started. The "gap" will be with us for some time. But then, inevitably, the "gap" will start to close.

Holograms, CMRA. The next wave will be three dimensional imaging that puts us inside of the artistry. And only a projector can do that.

Nicholas B

According to UPS tracking, I should receive my H31 tomorrow. So you have till then to get the HTPC issue figured out (just kidding).
All viewing and testing will be with DVDs via a Tosh 5970, Panny XP50, and my friend's Panny S97. I will attempt some HTPC trials and trubulations as I have four usable setups.

Review disks include:

LOTR-ROTK
Moulin Rouge
Men in Black 2
Lawrence of Arabia (superbit)
Pirates of the Carribean
and Shark Tale

Testing will be conducted on matte white, Misty Evening gray, and a light fusion screen.

Expect the feedback to come in multiple missives over several posts.

I'm so psyched for you! And for me, since you will be playing with a Panny S97, which is what I will be using with my H31. Do you know what firmware version it has? There is a brand new version out, 360, that started with the April builds.

In any event, I can't wait to hear your feedback. ENJOY!

Nicholas B

I too will watch this thread with great interest. :)

Demo H31 shows up today (6-1-05) for me according to UPS tracking ;) . I hope to get working on the HTPC issues by the weekend .



*** Update : demo H31 is here ***

---------- Jason

Gentlemen.......START YOUR PROJECTORS!

ARG! I envy you guys so much! I am in self imposed exile with my X1 waiting for the day when 720p spec DLP projectors reach the msrp of the H31. I may wimp out however if I keep reading AVS everyday ;)

ARG! I envy you guys so much! I am in self imposed exile with my X1 waiting for the day when 720p spec DLP projectors reach the msrp of the H31. I may wimp out however if I keep reading AVS everyday ;)

...but you'll say it all over again then because 1080p will be where 720p is today.

I don't think so, the main reason why is I want something to work with my HTPC. 480p is great for movies, but for gaming and such I just would prefer some more resolution to work with.
I plan on having a xbox 360, and it will be 720p as well.

I am interested in seeing what you think about the h31 compaired to your CRT projector. I have a barco Graphics 800 I am currently playing with myself.

There's always a fly in the ointment! Leave it to someone in the chain to leave off my unit #. Leave it to UPS to make no attempt to track me down. I'm right here in the building (in my unit waiting and waiting) and all the driver had to do is ask for the name or go to the mail box to find out which unit I was in. Holy moly...

Sorry folks, unscheduled delay.

Could you even imagine having a bill or invoice delayed? No way in hell! But when it is something this pleasant and exciting, it happens all the time. Deep breaths, CMRA, deep breaths. My H31 is not due until Monday, so I lose the weekend, and have a killer week next week. Such is life...

Well things are not looking good on the H31/HTPC front at this time guys so I hope you new owners out there were not planning to go that route ;) . It is not dead in the water just yet but it might be a sinking ship :( .

--------- Jason

Jason:

Even the notion of going with a PJ was completely foreign to me a month ago. My how things change! HTPC is another quantum leap that I will probably take in the future. But for now, setting up and getting the best possible image out of my H31/S97 combo is pushing my personal envelope. You guys have been into this much longer and deeper. I just want everyong to know how appreciative we newbies are of your time and experience. It is hard to describe how much I have learned in the past month. Thanks.

Some early Pros and Cons and two nice surprizes.

Pros:
Plenty bright and punchy. Even on a 100" screen in econo mode has lumens to spare. Can even use with some ambient light in the room.
True plug and play. Never once opened the manual.
Some nice features, plenty of user controls.
Nice even illumination. Good focus edge to edge.
Excellent color...what Optoma is known for.
Crisp defined image.
Quite. As in whisper.

Cons:
3000:1 CR? Hardly. But better than my 800:1 rated LCD. A long ways from CRT glory. Blacks are at least a dark gray.
Default settings "out of the box" are a mess. Totally washed out.
Puppy puts out a good deal of heat.
Reds are a challenge. I'm still working on it though. It's the 'orange red ' typical of early plasma sets. Funny how nobody mentioned that before.

Surprize #1: SDE is a non issue on a Misty Evening gray screen at 1.5x. Even then I had to look for it. With some program material and that screen I could get 1:1 before SDE became an issue.

And #2. HTPC/DVI worked flawlessly. I'm I doing something different? You tell me.

Setup:
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
AMD 2100+ CPU O'clocked to 2700+
Cheap ECS/VIA mobo.
10 foot DVI-D (dual) cable.
Windows XP pro

Working codecs: ATI(the one that came with the card), WMP, and PowerDVD 5.0
All played without a hitch at 1280x720.
(Do you suppose it's my short cable?)

More later.

Some early Pros and Cons and two nice surprizes.

Pros:
Plenty bright and punchy. Even on a 100" screen in econo mode has lumens to spare. Can even use with some ambient light in the room.
True plug and play. Never once opened the manual.
Some nice features, plenty of user controls.
Nice even illumination. Good focus edge to edge.
Excellent color...what Optoma is known for.
Crisp defined image.
Quite. As in whisper.

Cons:
3000:1 CR? Hardly. But better than my 800:1 rated LCD. A long ways from CRT glory. Blacks are at least a dark gray.
Default settings "out of the box" are a mess. Totally washed out.
Puppy puts out a good deal of heat.
Reds are a challenge. I'm still working on it though. It's the 'orange red ' typical of early plasma sets. Funny how nobody mentioned that before.

Surprize #1: SDE is a non issue on a Misty Evening gray screen at 1.5x. Even then I had to look for it. With some program material and that screen I could get 1:1 before SDE became an issue.

And #2. HTPC/DVI worked flawlessly. I'm I doing something different? You tell me.

Setup:
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
AMD 2100+ CPU O'clocked to 2700+
Cheap ECS/VIA mobo.
10 foot DVI-D (dual) cable.
Windows XP pro

Working codecs: ATI(the one that came with the card), WMP, and PowerDVD 5.0
All played without a hitch at 1280x768.
(Do you suppose it's my short cable?)

More later.

CMRA ,

--- Awesome for you that DVI worked right from the start , it must be the 10' cable and Radeon 9800 Pro combo . Be forewarned though that some H31 users had DVI signal for a while with an ATi card and then lost it totally . I hope it stays working for you and you can try out some pixel mapping (848x480) :) .


----------- Jason

Keep workin on it cmra. The contrast should not be in the cons on that list. Also run that panny s97 it fixes the orange reds. Out of the box was pretty bad for me the contrast didnt look to impressive. Not much better than my x1 untill I calibrated it and saw what the thing could do. It took me over a month to get the colors to look ok and I still wasnt very happy with the componate input. Then I got the s97 and its was like a different PJ. I havent run my current set up with the panny on my ME screen yet. I'll have to pull it out of the closet and give it a try. It does mask SDE very well as ME always has on most PJs. I'm not sure its worth the color shift though. I'm a big fan of ME. Its a fun paint to play with.

Reds are a challenge. I'm still working on it though. It's the 'orange red ' typical of early plasma sets. Funny how nobody mentioned that before.
Actually, that was discussed a fair bit in the main H31 thread, though not everyone agreed. Reds look perfectly fine to me, though I see a definite green push in skin tones. People always look a bit sicker than they probably feel.

Mine was a enormous mess out of the box as well. I'm not sure what they were thinking - brightness was cranked up to something like 31 or so (I ended up at about 2 after AVIA). I agree, 3000:1 isn't a valid number, but you SHOULD be getting in the low 2000 range. I cranked up the color temp a bit and slapped on an FLD filter that I had and the image is great. It really helped the black level, and cut some of the light output to a more reasonable level. I haven't had a chance to measure contrast and ftL yet, but hopefully over the weekend.

I also agree on the Panny's. I have an older 480i model (RV80) and the reds are very deep, not in the least bit "orangey". The image isn't quite as good as my HTPC could do, but the reds are better and the image is quite acceptable.

-Mike

On the RED issue : Remember now that most digital PJ's push red a bit until the new lamp settles in ;) .

--------- Jason

RedDog']Keep workin on it cmra. The contrast should not be in the cons on that list. Also run that panny s97 it fixes the orange reds. Out of the box was pretty bad for me the contrast didnt look to impressive. Not much better than my x1 untill I calibrated it and saw what the thing could do. It took me over a month to get the colors to look ok and I still wasnt very happy with the componate input. Then I got the s97 and its was like a different PJ. I havent run my current set up with the panny on my ME screen yet. I'll have to pull it out of the closet and give it a try. It does mask SDE very well as ME always has on most PJs. I'm not sure its worth the color shift though. I'm a big fan of ME. Its a fun paint to play with.

Thanks for the panny input on the reds. I have three pannys here to try. And my amigo plans to drop by today with his S97.
But, the CR is something unique to CRTs. It's the deep rich blacks and all the detail in them that all the fuss is about. (Much more than you see in the cinema) I consider this the only real hurdle digitals have to overcome. And, let's face it, if all things were equal, who in heck would want a 200 pound leviathan when a five pound cracker jack could do it's equal?

Just to jump in, My H31 is setup and working flawlessly. Using all component connections tho. My review will be out shortly. But for anyone interested, the H31 has exceeded my expectations, esp. after using the 4805 all weekend.

I'm surprised Avia didn't lower your color pushes after calibration. Mine are all within 5% of eachother, with none over the +5 mark. Anyway, I am way freakin happy that it is performing the way it is. No HTPC on my end so no worries there.
Also, guitarmans setting of PC and gamma to 1 setting is just so inky and filmlike...now I feel the pride that the 4805 didn't give me. :p

On the RED issue : Remember now that most digital PJ's push red a bit until the new lamp settles in ;) .

--------- Jason

That's news to me. All my experience tallies a green push, LCD and DLP both. I'm use to rich 'stop sign' red. But, fear not, I'm not giving up. I got rid of the green, I plan to bring on the red.

Just a quick ditto to the Panasonic S97 offering much better red levels. I had been using either a Denon 2200 or Pioneer DV-563 via component, both qood quality progressive players, and had been bugged by the slightly orangey reds they presented. I bought the S97 and hooked it up via DVI and the red issue is now a non issue, beautiful deep reds. I'm still trying to figure out my Smart III system so I can't verify contrast levels yet but everything looks awesome. :D

Moe

That's news to me. All my experience tallies a green push, LCD and DLP both. I'm use to rich 'stop sign' red. But, fear not, I'm not giving up. I got rid of the green, I plan to bring on the red.

--- I think you are talking grey-scale while I am talking about the lamp itself ;) .

---------- Jason

Just to jump in, My H31 is setup and working flawlessly. Using all component connections tho. My review will be out shortly. But for anyone interested, the H31 has exceeded my expectations, esp. after using the 4805 all weekend.

I'm surprised Avia didn't lower your color pushes after calibration. Mine are all within 5% of eachother, with none over the +5 mark. Anyway, I am way freakin happy that it is performing the way it is. No HTPC on my end so no worries there.
Also, guitarmans setting of PC and gamma to 1 setting is just so inky and filmlike...now I feel the pride that the 4805 didn't give me. :p


--- I can assure you that the 'PC' setting is not something you want to use , you are not seeing an accurate image (but if you like it then that is what counts ;) ) .

------------ Jason

The Film/PC setting are in reality different gamma settings. So each change in the Image area gives you a additional five new gammas. I got the tip from Greg Rodgers of WSR with the H79. Assume the H30 and H31 work the same. Greg got the best gamma tests out of one of the choices. I think it's called something different on the H79 (TV I think). But in looking at what PC does it matches what's happening with the H79. PC increases blacks and contrast, much like what happens with the H79 with TV.

I haven't got around to testing the gamma curves but will. Of course you'll have to re-tune with PC. We'll have to play around with PC some more to see what's going on.

Yeah , the PC setting will blow out the gamma curve while improving CR .

----------- Jason

Film was clipping the gamma curves in the high register, the PC or TV was showing flat gamma curves. That's with the H79 though, I can find out by running each stock gamma for each Image area change. Come to think of it I think the H31 has four options in the image area. That's allot of grayscales runs, 20 to be exact. I'll need a month to figure it out.

GM,

20? there are 4 settings, and 3 option per setting. Am I missing something?

Also, Do you have any other settings that your recommend. The PQ now is really fabulous. I feel very satisfied with it, but if there is more than Avia can refine, please post. I have tried several times on the H31 80 something page thread to find more of your advice, but it's a heavy slog in there. :o

I'll need to find out which image option produces the flatter gamma curves. Only three gamma's with the H31 ok, I was figuring what the H79 has, it has 5.

Once I find the best gamma I'll run a grayscale tune and post the settings. Helping each different partys setup is iffy though. Maybe you'll get lucky or at least close.

Ok, here's the next missive.

Hooked up the S97 to the H31. Took a bit of adjusting and believe it or not set the Panny for 'CRT" display and the picture really came to life via HDMI/DVI. For whatever reason, (pixel matching perhaps), the 480p setting provided the sharpest image. The 720p was very close. The 1080i introduced a "smooth vision" of sorts (something very noticeable on close ups when your'e counting wrinkles and pores).
So all the chatter about the S97 holds water...at least where the H31 is concerned. BTW, it should be noteworthy, in all three hours of viewing, neither my guest nor I observed any macroblocking. Big plus for the combo. Oh, and rainbows...what rainbows? (Guess I'm not sensitive. Nor are my guests.)

Next, the Tosh.

More later.

I can also confirm a headache free picture on the H31. The 4805 DID give me headaches tho in the same viewing conditions.

Who da thunk it? :rolleyes:


GM, Just pointing "us" in the right direction would be great. I would've never thought of changing the setting that deep in the menus.

CMRA,

Be careful to check out dark scenes with the S97. I had it for a week or so and had to return it because of a pink tint in gray areas and also dancing grayish pixels in dark scenes. It was totally unnacceptable. A movie with lots of night scenes where you might see this is 'Blue Crush'.

Otherwise it's a nice player with the H31.

Wayne

First setup with my H31 was Image/film, gamma 1. Color temp 2 made the best grays with Avia gray steps. You'll need to use Avia or THX for blacks/whites. If you try Image/PC you'll need to choose a gamma that looks best, then tune the black & whites. Take a look at some gray steps to see what's happening with the color temps, 1 or 2 most likey will make the best gray. THX has gray steps also.

I have my s97 set to CRT also. I tried lcd but it crushed the blacks a bit. Ive tried the s97 on 5 or 6 tv's all of them looked best at 480 for some reason. So thats what I reccomend with this player. 720 does get rid of alot of the digital noise but you get a softer picture. This was true for all diplays HD or not. As far as pink tint I've never seen it. I upgraded my player to the newest firmware after seeing the opening for master and commander on it. It looked pretty bad. After the upgrade it looked fine. CRMA what screen have you decided on so far?

Well I for one would be shocked if the PC setting can deliver a proper Gamma Curve , so I guess kras and I will have to check that out here in a couple weeks ;) .

------------- Jason

I can also confirm a headache free picture on the H31. The 4805 DID give me headaches tho in the same viewing conditions.

Who da thunk it? :rolleyes:


--- The 4805 is brighter than the H31 so it is more likely to cause eye strain and/or headaches until the lamp dims .

----------- Jason

RedDog']CRMA what screen have you decided on so far?

Currently all testing is being done on an 84" (2.35:1) light fusion screen and a 100"(16x9) Misty Evening gray screen. As mentioned earlier, the ME screen does wonders for SDE.

Currently all testing is being done on an 84" (2.35:1) light fusion screen and a 100"(16x9) Misty Evening gray screen. As mentioned earlier, the ME screen does wonders for SDE.

What is the light fusion screen? Is that a custom color one? I followed the ME screen threads a while ago, but not for some time now.

Also, what is the screen width / viewing distance ratio on the light fusion screen?

Fleaman

Does anyone have recommendations for Picture Mode (Cinema/Normal/Vivid) as the best jumping off point for adjustment? And what about White Peaking?

In general, I'm curious if there is any type of consensus among you regarding perferred settings for the H31/S97 combo? So far, I have read:

1. Set the S97 to CRT display, not Projector;

2. Set video output to 480;

3. Set the H31 Image Mode to PC;

4. Increase Gamma to 1;

5. Color Temp 1 0r 2;

Of course, this is only the running list until guitarman tests the gamma curves and posts more. And a bigger of course is that any particular individual's mileage may vary, but it is nice to have a reality check with other members with similar set-ups. There certainly should be more similarities than differences.

Nicholas B

CMRA,

Be careful to check out dark scenes with the S97.
Wayne

I promise. That was the very reason to get a dark chip 2 player in the first place. And, do I ever. Don't forget I'm a stickler for blacks and black level (shadow)detail.

If anyone questions keeping the signal digital and bypassing the DACs...question no more. The H31 takes a big leap forward in image clarity and color purity over component. (At least with the Tosh)

Now onto 'Pirates'.

Pirates is movie making at it's best. I must have seen this film 20 times and never tire of it. So, how did the H31 fair?

Very well, actually. As good as CRT? Well...no. But, it holds its own in the digital domain. (That speaks volumes for an entry level PJ). Via the HDMI/DVI connection the picture comes to life and the red issue is resolved. Black and black level detail were on par with what you'd expect watching the film at the local cinema. I believe I can coax out an even better image over time.

Here was my setup for POTC:

Tosh 5970 HDMI to DVI(720p)
Projected on a 2.35:1 light fusion screen (84" diagonal @ 11')
Settings:
Contrast 18
Briteness -11
Gamma 1
Film curve
Red Cont 14
Green Cont 10
Blue Cont 10
RGB Briteness All 0

Of course, everyone's mileage will vary as they will employ different DVD players and screens.

Next test: a little animation: Shark Tale

"What is the light fusion screen? Is that a custom color one? I followed the ME screen threads a while ago, but not for some time now."

This is the major AVS thread on LF. There's a screen design sticky at the top of the DIY forum I consider must reading.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=338764

CMRA,
not to get too far off topic, but which of the players (S97 or 5970) do you like better so far with the H31?

-Mike

Currently all testing is being done on an 84" (2.35:1) light fusion screen and a 100"(16x9) Misty Evening gray screen. As mentioned earlier, the ME screen does wonders for SDE.
Does the ME screen help SDE more than the light fusion with the H31? The SDE reduction sounded like the main advantage an LF screen could give to me. I don't think the LF screen I saw that MM made had any more gain than the MMud screen not on a mirror.

If you can sit this close with the H31, I wonder how close you would be comfortable sitting with an H79.

--Darin

CMRA,
not to get too far off topic, but which of the players (S97 or 5970) do you like better so far with the H31?

-Mike
Mike,
Both players can produce a very good image. The S97 is feature rich by comparison. Of the two, I'd opt for the Panny. But, the Panny is back in the hands of it's rightful owner now. (The Tosh is no slouch, however.)

Does the ME screen help SDE more than the light fusion with the H31? The SDE reduction sounded like the main advantage an LF screen could give to me. I don't think the LF screen I saw that MM made had any more gain than the MMud screen not on a mirror.

If you can sit this close with the H31, I wonder how close you would be comfortable sitting with an H79.

--Darin
At the moment, yes. (Keep in mind, there's a minor color shift with ME some members find objectionable, especially on film based material) With the Z1, SDE reduction on LF was/is a major benefit.

H79...I can only imagine just how much better. 1:1, maybe?

CMRA,

Your postings have been of immense value as well as guitarman's. Though I've owned a sony crt for few years, these DLP's are all new to me in my HT realm. I'm glad to see some settings at low or minus values. I thought I was crazy for a second when I went there on my unit.

Onto the DVI over component, this really intruigues me as I beginning to setup the HT room more permanately and I might as well push the PJ to it's optimum level. SO my question is, can you elaborate a little on the statements about a huge leap in color and quality over component. Are we talking similar to component over S-video?

Anyone else who had done some comparisions please also chime in esp, guitarman!

One last thing, I selected the "high altitude" option that runs the fan faster to cool the bulb in the H31 and to my delight discovered that it was about the same loudness of the 4805 when in "low" mode.

CMRA,

Onto the DVI over component, this really intruigues me as I beginning to setup the HT room more permanately and I might as well push the PJ to it's optimum level. SO my question is, can you elaborate a little on the statements about a huge leap in color and quality over component. Are we talking similar to component over S-video?

.

The image moves up a notch. It is a visable improvement. It should be. Your'e eleminating the DACs which means NOT converting the signal from digital to analog and back to digital again. The result is a sharper cleaner image but, more importantly, with the H31 the reds look normal again. "Huge leap" would be a stretch. Put another way, if you have an HDMI player why not spend less than $10 for a six foot cable to enjoy the benefit?

About Shark Tale. I don't recall seeing this on any display where it failed to look good.
I did notice switching from the film curve to the graphics curve made the image look very close to my ATI Radeon 9800 pro.
Anyway, it passes the 'eye candy' test rather handily.

Moulin Rouge tonight.

The image moves up a notch. It is a visable improvement. It should be. Your'e eleminating the DACs which means NOT converting the signal from digital to analog and back to digital again.

i might sound like a broken record since i have posted this a couple of times but.....

older toshiba DVD over 25' of componenet video cable versus S77 over 3' of HDMI/DVI-D cable

Calibrate both, big difference? No. Sharper? Not really. I thought about that for a bit.

The signal to screen over component vide has well defined vertical timing, it is not surprising that vertical lines are in the right place.

The horizontal pixels are more problematic as there are now well defined synch signals in the middle, only the beginning. But given the relative slowness of the signal and probable accuracy of the clocks, getting the horizontal pixels in the right place is likely not real hard.

Noise - generally that is the problem i see in D2A and A2D conversions (something i deal with professionally quite a bit). If i looked real hard, noise in black scenes seemed greater on the DVI versus component.

David

That is just my thought.

Was this my lucky night or what? Moulin Rouge on my Tosh and a Panny S97, and a Panny S77. You read that right.

So you want a movie to show off your H31? MR is it. Sure there is sharper tranfer material out there but what a color extravaganza and cinematic feast.

Now about the players. My Mr X friend (his real name is George) shows up at my door with both panny players. Frankly, they are so close image wise you could flip a coin. Against the Tosh, both produced a sharper film image but at the expense of some added noise. The SDE became more apparent at my 1.5x viewing distance. I could live with any of the three. The Pannys still get the edge because of all the added features, adjustments, and engineering.

Anyway, the H31 is doing rather swimmingly. I'm growing quite fond of my new little room heater.

Next Up: Men in Black II

LOL, we must of finished our movies at the same time! I had never seen Fifth element but that was such a fun movie. My GF said "okay, what's the next movie?!"

So which had less SDE? Were these all over DVI or component?

LOL, we must of finished our movies at the same time! I had never seen Fifth element but that was such a fun movie. My GF said "okay, what's the next movie?!"

So which had less SDE? Were these all over DVI or component?

Wow, such a late intro to the 5th element? That movie is such a reference for projectors. I haven't compared the superbit to the regular, but my superbit is just awesome on the H31 (and even the H30).

And, the more I watch the 5th element, the more I appreciate what they were trying to do. It has that little bit of intended corniness, but I think it's totally appropriate. Imagine if those in the early 1900's saw how we lived today, with all the media and advertisements and corny videos, mtv, bling bling stuff of today....they would probably think we are rather corny. So, even though the 5th element is corny in a way to us today, it's now a more potentially accurate (to me) attempt of portraying the future than I originally felt.

Fleaman

i might sound like a broken record since i have posted this a couple of times but.....

older toshiba DVD over 25' of componenet video cable versus S77 over 3' of HDMI/DVI-D cable

Calibrate both, big difference? No. Sharper? Not really. I thought about that for a bit.

David

That is just my thought.

Thanks for the feedback David. One nice thing about the H31 is it allows for both inputs at the same time from the same source (component and DVI) and saves the settings. I can flip back and forth and make a 480p comparison. Consider it done.

Flea,

I never watched the whole movie before. It always looked strange because I never caught the beginning. And it was on always on sdtv. It was made for a large screen, and worked great watching it like a new movie. It holds up extremely well considering tht it was made in the 90's. Jilla is an absolute joy in every scene. It probably was ahead of it's time. Anyway, I see now why it is deemed a reference DVD.

CMRA, I hope you post your impressions with that dvi/component toggle test.

Men in Black turned out to be a slam-dunk. No need to elaborate.

But, the ever testy 'Sleepy Hollow' reared up to remind me who's on high. There's just some material for CRT's only. Stay away from these and you'll be just fine.

Beyond testing, I must confess some visual diversions. Can you believe I have already clocked 28hrs on it? (I have only had it for 2 1/2 days!) And, that's no fish story, Nemo.

Hi CMRA:

Thanks for all of the great feedback. I was wondering about your last post. Why would Sleepy Hollow thorugh a PJ for a loop? What is it about the film that causes such difficulties? It would be good to know, so such discs could be avoided or at least taken with a grain of salt.

I get my H31 and my 92" High Power tomorrow. I can hardly wait. Unfortunately, J & R sent me the wrong gender of HDMI top DVI converter (I needed female to male), so I have to wait a couple of more days for the correct one to arrive. You posts are definitely getting me stoked.

Nicholas B

I watched sleepy hollow on my old x1 and it seemed fine. I'm sure its also compleatly watchable on the h31. Cmra is a total whore for deep black levels. Even at the cost of color accuracy, brightness, and detail. So some movies may seem to him unwatchable on any digital display. I felt that way about quite a few movies on my old x1. I did see sleepy hollow on the x1 and its seemed ok. It wasnt one of the movies I deemed unwatchable. So far all of the movies that were hard to watch on the x1 are great on the h31. I'll test out sleepy hollow and see tonight if its realy that bad. So far I havent see any movies that I watch and think I gotta avoid that one.

CMRA,

Can you summarize SDE and color performance on the two screens you have (Misty Evening & Light Fusion DIY). Is the source (DVD player or HTPC) also somehow contributing to less apparent SDE? Have you tried any HD sources and can comment there as well.

Thanks.

Hi CMRA:

Thanks for all of the great feedback. I was wondering about your last post. Why would Sleepy Hollow thorugh a PJ for a loop? What is it about the film that causes such difficulties? It would be good to know, so such discs could be avoided or at least taken with a grain of salt.

I get my H31 and my 92" High Power tomorrow. I can hardly wait. Unfortunately, J & R sent me the wrong gender of HDMI top DVI converter (I needed female to male), so I have to wait a couple of more days for the correct one to arrive. You posts are definitely getting me stoked.

Nicholas B

What is your screen model and mfg? I have the 92" Draper M2500 and I'm really falling in love with.... I painted my back wall (Mr. E's advice) flat black and the blacks look just as good if not better then a sufrace with 1.0 gain. With this screen it really feels like you could reach out and touch the movie.

Mr. E! :D I love this new moniker for me that seems to be catching on Lenny. Thanks to jedi for that. At least he was the first one that I'm aware of who coined it.

Say, Lenny...could you post a picture or two sometime showing your new paint job of your back wall? I'd love to see what you've done. :) :)

What a difference it makes when you've got a retro-reflective high gain screen eh!?

And guys, surprise surprise, your WAF may actually not mind it. My wife thinks it's not bad and apparently so does Lenny's. I think we're on to something here. ;)

Wayne (MR. E) :cool:

I'll definetly get a picture posted tomorrow, rooms not finished but we are still enjoying it every night. Watched White Noise last night, played xbox most of the day today....it's an addiction. O yeah a word of advice to all, don't try calibrating a source with the the lense cap still on...damn I'm painting that thing black tomorrow.

I'll definetly get a picture posted tomorrow, rooms not finished but we are still enjoying it every night. Watched White Noise last night, played xbox most of the day today....it's an addiction. O yeah a word of advice to all, don't try calibrating a source with the the lense cap still on...damn I'm painting that thing black tomorrow.

what a great idea, i was lining up the screen and border and had everything right and next day, crap everything was all wrong and distorted, yep, lens cap

painting it black or better yet, putting a message on it, remove the lens cappy dummy ;).

good thing is you only do it 10 or so times before it becomes a habit to remove.

david

That lens cap is always messing with me. My kids always put it on for some reason. I never check and I think "Frack my bulbs getting dim already?" then I see the brown tint and remember the lenscap.

CMRA,

Can you summarize SDE and color performance on the two screens you have (Misty Evening & Light Fusion DIY). Is the source (DVD player or HTPC) also somehow contributing to less apparent SDE? Have you tried any HD sources and can comment there as well.

Thanks.
Every variable changes the mix. From source, to source material, to screen etc. Consider also your tolerence for SDE. With my setup it's a peek-a-boo experience. It's a trade off I'm willing to make to sit closer and get a more engulfing experience. Rapid flashing of bright images againt dark backgrounds are the main culprits.
When you try the same thing with a CRT direct view you see a constant shadow mask and with plasma a constant screen door. It's almost non-existent on LCD flat panels but I have yet to see one that doesn't collapse on dark scenes. Besides, all these are too puny anyway. It's watching TV...not theater.
I find the HTPC produces the sharpest image but it also brings out the SDE more. Of the stand alone players, the Tosh provided the smoothest (but also the softest least defined) image.
ME has a thalo green tint in the mix that somehow helps mitigate SDE. I have no scientific explanation, it just does.

If I may,

I just finished I,robot on my H31 and was able to eliminate SDE.

After using Avia as a starting point I fed the PJ a 480i signal. Then adjusted my white level, black level, and gamma to a "richer" level. I stayed within 3 clicks of the Avia settings, but combined, really helped soften the SDE. Next, I softened the focus ever so slightly , then increased sharpness in the menu. I kept an image paused during this adjustment, making sure I only went a little at a time to find the least SDE/focus compromise I could. I know alot of you guys are gasping and can't believe I would purposefully introduce more noise or distortion into the image, but the best part is, it paid off.

I AM a stickler for SDE and like CMRA, bought the PJ for the immersion of it (or theater like replication), and this has me thoroghly satisfied with the results. SDE is gone and is only barely perceptible on bright wide shots, but just barely. I equate it to gaining an extra 3 ft in seating distance without losing my screen size. Anyway, I know there are a lot of new owners thanks to the price drops, so I thought I'd share a tweak. :D

The H31 SDE is really not too bad to begin with as it honestly does not have the best optics , so the Focus is not as tight as it could be ( thus eliminating that harsh SDE from a super tight focus ) . This was the same with the H30 only difference here is that the H31 optics seem to be a step up from the H30 .

------------ Jason

Jason,

Good to hear from you again! Hope all is progressing smoothly with regards to your stolen vehicle. :( :eek:

Given that you've now just commented on the H31's optics, I'll venture an educated guess that you've had a little time to evaluate/play with the H31 over VGA and perhaps component cables. Care to offer an early review based on what you've seen so far? I know we'd appreciate it over on the H31 thread. Of course we're primarily interested in getting you up and running digitally with the HTPC but unless jedi's cable helps you, you're probably only going to be able to use analog signals.

Anyway, let us know when you get a chance about your impressions of the CR, black levels, brightness, fan noise, color saturation etc... compared to the 4805. Try to be fair and not use the 4805's DVI output when you compare. :) :D

Thanks Jason!

Wayne

What is your screen model and mfg? I have the 92" Draper M2500 and I'm really falling in love with.... I painted my back wall (Mr. E's advice) flat black and the blacks look just as good if not better then a sufrace with 1.0 gain. With this screen it really feels like you could reach out and touch the movie.

Hey Lenny:

I hope I have your kind of luck with my new screen. It's a Da-lite Model B, 92", in the High Power material. It just arrived about an hour ago. Now I have to wait until after work to hang it. Because I rent, there is no way I can get out the black paint. Unfortunately, the room where my PJ will be set up is completely white! We'll see how it goes.

Nicholas B

Hey Lenny:
Because I rent, there is no way I can get out the black paint. Unfortunately, the room where my PJ will be set up is completely white! We'll see how it goes.

Nicholas B

All is not lost. Black constuction paper does wonders. And, if you want to get fancy (CMRA style) buy a roll of black photo backdrop paper at your photo retailer. There's the ever popular black fabric approach from Joann's, with WAF, also. Remember thumb tacks (flat black heads) or velcro strips for hangin'.

All is not lost. Black constuction paper does wonders. And, if you want to get fancy (CMRA style) buy a roll of black photo backdrop paper at your photo retailer. There's the ever popular black fabric approach from Joann's, with WAF, also. Remember thumb tacks (flat black heads) or velcro strips for hangin'.

Or even if you can't swing black, there's lots of other dark fabrics that would certainly help. I'm considering a really deep red or blue velveteen like fabric for my nasty paneled walls. Even the wife likes that idea :)

Not a bad idea. My set-up is such that I do not have a wall behind my seating position. It is an opening into my kitchen, which is.....you guessed it! But it is kind of broken up with angles and counters, etc. Not like a flat wall bouncing everything right back.

I'll try it open. Later, I can experiment with closing off the opening with a black cloth.

I'm more worried about ambient light. My PJ room has 6, count 'em, 6 HUGE windows. I installed light blocking shades AND room darkening blinds on each window. I'm hoping this combo, along with the High Power material, will take care of ambient light issues.

In less than an hour, I get to start hanging my screen and setting up my H31 for its maiden voyage. Because of a converter screw up, I will have to with component for the time being. I guess it will give me something to look forward to once the proper converter arrives.

N

Yea if you can use black cloth in the back that would good. Component is not bad at all to look at...you'll still see an awesome picture.

Component is not bad at all to look at...you'll still see an awesome picture.


I'm using 480i via component and the image is extremely good. I'll probably go DVI soon, but I'm not in any hurry.

-Mike

Here is the link for my just painted room. No trim or railing yet, bottom 3' will be stained wood with picture frame moulding. Please excuse the mess. :)

http://www.picturetrail.com/lennytellone

Nice job on the back wall Lenny! It looks cool now but just wait until you finish everything off. It'll be spectacular then. I like what you've done with the front as well. The curtains give the screen that theatrical feel.

Thanks for doing this. I might get some photos up of the sides and front of my rec room as well sometime.

Wayne

A few more kudos for Optoma. (Those familiar with the H31 will know all about this)

My big snips about the 31 amount to this: the pup really puts out the heat. I suppose that's actually a good thing. I may be way off target but in my mind heat out rather than in is a good thing. The unit is cool to the touch just minutes after you shut it down.
My other gripe: no lens shift. Since I move my unit back and forth so much I miss this feature. (Makes precision setup a breeze)

But this is all over shadowed by some nice extras:

25 custom presets. Well, not quite. Only ten for me since I don't use the s-video, composite, or DVI-A ports.
A nifty really well thought out, easy to navigate, snappy remote.
'Resets' on all the adjustment screens.
It remembers all your changes without having to save them first...nice.
Brightness and contrast adjustments on the remote...no digging thru menus to make simple adjustments.
Independent RGB contrast AND brightness adjustments...really nice.
Instant formatting, letterboxing, and a zoom that ZOOMS. (zoom is more fun than practical).
Sharpness control (but not in DVI)
A nice carrying case.
And a color pallet that simply won't let you down.

Perhaps a few more...if I ever read the manual.

Tonight: Superbit Lawrence of Arabia

Tonight: Superbit Lawrence of Arabia

I have that Superbit disc as well and just tested out some scenes on it a few days ago....really nice!

The opening sequence is the only 'funny' movie production part to me....how the film is speed up to make Lawrence appear to driving very fast and the hair that is hardly moving in what would be close to 100mph speeds.

Other than that, still a magnificent epic movie....no CGI and I love it!

Fleaman

CMRA,

Onto the DVI over component, this really intruigues me as I beginning to setup the HT room more permanately and I might as well push the PJ to it's optimum level. SO my question is, can you elaborate a little on the statements about a huge leap in color and quality over component. Are we talking similar to component over S-video?

.

It took some serious work, but I got the component looking very close to the HDMI result. I must now alter my opinion. What I should have said was using the HDMI/DVI connection it was very easy to coax an excellent image from the H31. Now that I know more about the unit and how to manipulate the controls, getting a comparable component image is very doable.

Employing my Tosh 5970 via component here are the #s:

Cont -1
Bright -10
Color 30
Sharp 6
Gamma 1

Color Temp 2
Film Curve
RGB cont: 15,8,15 respectively
RGB bright all 0

Obviously, with different players and screens your results will vary. Use these as starting points only. Good luck.

Both L of A and ROTK passed their visuals with flying colors last night. The images were all that could be expected and more from a entry level PJ. I even went so far as to reduce the screen size to 45 inches and played L of A against my direct view 36" HDTV. Standing back to compensate for the size difference, the H31 really held its own. That's saying a boatload. (BTW, I have two Tosh 5970s and two copies of L of A, so the comparison was truly 'head to head'.)
Oh yeah, with that arrangement, there was absolutely zero SDE and the image was every bit as bright and punchy as the CRT.

Tonight, I move the H31 over to the big screen and check out HDTV. ( I have four screens if anyone asks). (BTW, my 84" 2.35:1 produces the same size image as a 92" 16x9 screen when playing 2.35 material...just no black bars.)

Early conclusions: Digital Darin was right all along. His H79 must truly represent a real challenge to CRT projection. Who would have thought digitals would have moved along this far this fast? What's even more exciting is the race isn't over and H79s may be entry level DPJs two years from now.

Kudos to Optoma for bringing products like the H31 to market. With street prices as low as $1000 from AVS sponsored merchants, true HT is within the reach of the 'everyman'. All the praise and accolades this little 'gem' has received are more than justified. More later.

Here is the link for my just painted room. No trim or railing yet, bottom 3' will be stained wood with picture frame moulding. Please excuse the mess. :)

http://www.picturetrail.com/lennytellone

Man, am I jealous! Nice job, Lenny. I'm wrangling with operating room brightness that I try to quell with shades and blinds. Enjoy your great space.

CMRA- would be nice to see a screen shot of your comparison.

NicholasB- Thanks...it is alot of work, actually it's hard to go in without trying to watch any DVD's or play Xbox. Someday I'll get upgraded to HDTV, but not until the room is done otherwise I'll never finish.

It took some serious work, but I got the component looking very close to the HDMI result. I must now alter my opinion. What I should have said was using the HDMI/DVI connection it was very easy to coax an excellent image from the H31. Now that I know more about the unit and how to manipulate the controls, getting a comparable component image is very doable.



I'm feeling the same way after a little time with the unit. At 1st, the DVI seemed to blow away the component. But now it seems most of that 'upgrade' was due to the DVI input being better calibrated OTB. It's getting harder for me to notice the difference between DVI and component these days. Probably some careful detailed comparisons are in order when I have the time....

Fleaman

I'm feeling the same way after a little time with the unit. At 1st, the DVI seemed to blow away the component. But now it seems most of that 'upgrade' was due to the DVI input being better calibrated OTB. It's getting harder for me to notice the difference between DVI and component these days. Probably some careful detailed comparisons are in order when I have the time....

Fleaman

The friendly interface of the H31 gives rise to something I never ever considered doing before: a 4 way comparison of DVI vs component vs SDI composite and SDI s-video. The Tosh has all 4 and the H31 allows one instant one button switching from the remote. (Is that why they put all those cables in the box?)

just a thought

The friendly interface of the H31 gives rise to something I never ever considered doing before: a 4 way comparison of DVI vs component vs SDI composite and SDI s-video. The Tosh has all 4 and the H31 allows one instant one button switching from the remote. (Is that why they put all those cables in the box?)

just a thought

My Momitsu can't do dvi and component at the same time (both outs are not active at the same time). Hence, it's difficult to do quick comparisons. I have a panny XP30 which has excellent progressive component, but I don't have 2 copies of the same dvd to do a comparison (Momitsu active DVI and Panny with component).

If your Toshiba has all 4 outs active at the same time, that would make it very easy to do quick comparisons of course.

If so, it would be delightful that you offer your thoughts on these possibilities :D

Fleaman

CMRA- would be nice to see a screen shot of your comparison.

.

Lenny,
We've been down that road before. As always, go live. Nothing but nothing beats in your face first hand experience.

Random shots of my H31's picture. I apologize for the quality. Cheap old camera. :rolleyes:

http://javdog.brinkster.net/1.jpg

http://javdog.brinkster.net/2.jpg

http://javdog.brinkster.net/3.jpg

http://javdog.brinkster.net/5.jpg

http://javdog.brinkster.net/6.jpg

100" Elite screen, Matte white 1.0 gain, Component 480i to Optoma H31

No complaints whatsoever. :D

Well, here's my wrap up on the H31.

It's hard not to like this PJ. It has so much going for it.
OK, it's not 9" CRT level. Let's get that out of the way. Then again, the MSRP isn't $35,000 either.
I wasn't expecting perfection nor did I get it. What I did get was a PJ that can produce a very satisfying image at a bargain basement price. The unit is also about as plug and play as they come.
Optoma has the colors down pat. It's quiet, unobtrusive, nicely crafted, and well engineered.
"Bang for the buck". How many times have you heard that? I like to think I'm getting 90% of what the 'big boys' get for 1/10th the price.
When it comes to watching region 1 DVDs it holds it's own rather well. But, you know that already.
The real kicker is when you go heads up to a $10,000 plasma. Would it surprise anyone reading that it throws out a better image than a 50" plasma (playing DVDs) at the same image size? HDTV was a mixed bag, however. Sometimes the plasma won out. Maybe it should...it cost 9 times as much.
Black levels are the achilles heel of all things digital. But, its getting closer all the time. This unit easily matches the $10,000 DLP of just two years ago when it comes to black levels and color fidelity.
It can throw out a stunning 40" image and a very good 100" image as well.
Sure, no hard core videophile would opt for one of these. But one with a soft spot for real price/performance value would be delighted.

With the introduction of the H79 (which I have yet to see) I comfortably believe digital PJs are just a generation or two away from the crown. Given DLP's rather short history I find this rather remarkable.

In closing, I ask this: With display devices like this available why would anyone want to sink money into an RPTV or plasma? (other than daylight viewing).

For the record, I have 45 hours on the unit. UPS delivered it a week ago Thursday. Does that tell you anything? CMRA
PS: It's a keeper.

I would just like to echo what CMRA has said, but from a much more pedestrian perspective. I was poised on the brink of purchasing a Sony 34" CRT TV, given my budget and the limitations of my small apt. That is when I got some sage advice from a person at the Home Theater Forum, extolling the virtues of projection, a technology with which I had barely a passing acquaintence. That advice, plus what I have learned here, won me over. I received my H31 two days ago, and I continue to have to pinch myself.

I would have never dreamt that I would be watching a 92" image with the PQ that I have, let alone for LESS than the Sony. LET ALONE in a package that basically disappears when not in use (how much was that huge box in the corner?). I still cannot believe what I have, or how good it is.

You have all helped me avoid costly mistakes, and I will always be grateful. But even if I had spent more, or gotten sub-par performance THIS TECHNOLOGY IS SOUND! As CMRA says, it is amazing how quickly it has gotten this good and this inexpensive. If it were possible to plot this on a graph, imagine what it would look like. Now imagine where it is headed!

If any of you are on the fence, BUY IT NOW. You will not be sorry.

Nicholas B

If any of you are on the fence, BUY IT NOW. You will not be sorry.

Nicholas B

Since the jury is still out on the DVI/HTPC matter methinks is be wise to tone down a wee bit. On the other hand, I understand your excitement.

Other members reading:

For the record, nobody is complaining about the unit with stand alone players. Some members are having issues with their HTPC setups. Know this going in BEFORE you pull the trigger. CMRA

Absolutely correct. My use is with a stand alone player only. See the main thread for the agony of those with HTPC.

Just click on this link:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5736820&&#post5736820

All this hype just emptied the last bit of money I had left to my name. It better be worth it :)

All this hype just emptied the last bit of money I had left to my name. It better be worth it :)

"Sure, no hard core videophile would opt for one of these. "

I guess we know what you are not. Enjoy.

It took some serious work, but I got the component looking very close to the HDMI result. I must now alter my opinion. What I should have said was using the HDMI/DVI connection it was very easy to coax an excellent image from the H31. Now that I know more about the unit and how to manipulate the controls, getting a comparable component image is very doable.


Funny you should mention that. I did some extensive comparisons last night between my new Panasonic S77 via HDMI @480p and 720p, and my ancient Panasonic RV80 (a well respected 480i player in it's day) via component.

Using "The Incredibles" as a test disk, I honestly didn't feel that the newer player offered a noticeable improvement. If anything, the older player was the sharpest and had similar color reproduction to the new one. The S77 via HDMI did appear slightly brighter, but that may have been a difference in calibration. (I didn't do in depth calibration, just basic AVIA and 'eyeball greyscale" on each input).

I'm fairly disappointed that my $300 of new equipment couldn't blow away my old player. Not sure if it's going back yet - the Panny does have some nice useability features. I'm definately not sold on the superiority of the digital input on the H31 though, component looks very good as well.

-Mike

click here for update:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5740150&&#post5740150

"Sure, no hard core videophile would opt for one of these. "

I guess we know what you are not. Enjoy.


I know, there's like this void inside.....

Much to my surprise one of my DVDs looked best at 1080i. Looks as though the 'smoothing' of 1080i setting can come in handy from time to time. So, if you have a copy of ROTK give it a try and see if your results are the same. My source was a Tosh 5970. Thanks.

Funny you should mention that. I did some extensive comparisons last night between my new Panasonic S77 via HDMI @480p and 720p, and my ancient Panasonic RV80 (a well respected 480i player in it's day) via component.

Using "The Incredibles" as a test disk, I honestly didn't feel that the newer player offered a noticeable improvement.

-Mike

ditto, those posting that they saw this incredible increase in pq with hdmi just doesn't agree with my eyes

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5715511#post5715511

David

ditto, those posting that they saw this incredible increase in pq with hdmi just doesn't agree with my eyes

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5715511#post5715511

David

My S77 is boxed up and ready to go back. Luckily it's only a few blocks away. I've watched WAY too much in the last 2 days and, yes, there was an improvement over the RV80. The problem was that it was so small, it didn't make the purchase worthwile. Back goes the HDMI cable too. I'm sure I'll go this route again sometime, but not until my current player bites the dust.

My S77 is boxed up and ready to go back. Luckily it's only a few blocks away. I've watched WAY too much in the last 2 days and, yes, there was an improvement over the RV80. The problem was that it was so small, it didn't make the purchase worthwile. Back goes the HDMI cable too. I'm sure I'll go this route again sometime, but not until my current player bites the dust.

Your experience pretty much sums up everybody's results. Seems they can see a difference, but not too much.
I was also able to coax out a good image either way. I still prefer HDMI>DVI because it is so convenient and you have the option to see which resolution looks best on a particular DVD. There's a 'smoothing' effect at the 720p and 1080i settings that favors some DVD transfers.

I am surprised to hear you guys say that very little difference was noted between component and dvi input since I myself have tried both and found that the dvi players way with colors was a big improvement. I have a Denon 2200, a fine comp. player, and when I hooked up my Panny S97 I finally saw what red looks like. Through component I got a damn fine image but the dvi colors are more solid and true.

Moe

I am surprised to hear you guys say that very little difference was noted between component and dvi input since I myself have tried both and found that the dvi players way with colors was a big improvement. I have a Denon 2200, a fine comp. player, and when I hooked up my Panny S97 I finally saw what red looks like. Through component I got a damn fine image but the dvi colors are more solid and true.

Moe

That was my complaint with component in the early going also. My reds were rather 'orangish'. But I kept at it. Earlier in this thread I made mention of this.
I suppose many believe by 'upscaling ' they will get a dramatically improved image with much higher resolution. Sorry folks, there's only so much you can do with 480 lines of information.
Yes, you can get excellent component results with the H31...just not nearly as easy as HDMI/DVI.

...service menu tweaks.
Truth of the matter is I'm only doing this to see what Tom (guitarman) sees. Does Tom enjoy something better than the rest of us? We'll see.

currently I'm getting such a good image, I'm having second thoughts about messing with the service menu. I think I need a little convincing.

Anybody here do the service menu route and get even more astounding results?

Tom and other high achievers, tell me what I have to gain, please. Thanks, CMRA

Re service menu, you can accomplish the same thing with the User Advanced adjustments. I just used the service are because it's RGB menu is out of the way of the color sensor when using colorfacts. Sheesh did I post up numbers? If so I can't even find them. :)

But still a great way to make natural colors is using that how to eyeball a decent grayscale I put at the top of the review thread. Get them shades of gray looking steely gray.

"you can accomplish the same thing with the User Advanced adjustments. "

Tom, I must be getting really close, because this H31 is taking on an 'as-you-see-it-in -the-theater' filmlike look.

I was watching "Runaway Jury" last night and it could have passed for 35mm film.
I'm sure my Tosh 5970 helped too. The two seem to be a solid match on film based material.
The color pallet is 'delicious' for lack of a better term.

I think I'll stay put for awhile. More later.

CMRA,
Any idea what the difference is between the 5980 and 5970? My local BB has an open box 5980 for about $90. Very tempting for the price.

I am glad you two have persued and shared tapping the full potential of this PJ. I'm feeling comfortable around "her" now and will venture into those advanced adjustments. CMRA's comments just removed the last bit of hesitation on my part. :)

The 318 is waiting for me at home!

Do you have any component Film/ advanced rgb adjustments, guitarman?

CMRA,
Any idea what the difference is between the 5980 and 5970? My local BB has an open box 5980 for about $90. Very tempting for the price.

My only experience with the 5980 was prior to my H31 purchase. The primary testing was on a Tosh 26" LCD HDTV ready display (26hl83). My only real objection was the 'green push' (via HDMI>DVI) inherent in the dark scenes. Keep in mind this was on an LCD fixed panel display and may in no way show up on a DLP pj(or other display device for that matter).
Given BB's generous return policy, I could see no reason not to try it.
I know the 5980 had more features than the 5970 and a much more favorable remote.

reading through the manual, it states that the DVI to HDMI comes with it (rather it doesn't say that it is optional) I got the VGA to DVI but not the HDMI adapter. Has anyone received that adapter?

Apparently that was a mistake. There may have been some who found it included in the early going but I'm not sure even about that. It's normal not to find it when you open the box unfortunately.

Wayne

Bummer, but it's not like we aren't getting more than our money's worth when it comes to cost for performance.

I can buy one if needed.. Thanks!

reading through the manual, it states that the DVI to HDMI comes with it (rather it doesn't say that it is optional) I got the VGA to DVI but not the HDMI adapter. Has anyone received that adapter?

Same here RB. But I did get a nifty travel case too which housed the PJ inside the packaging. A most excellent touch and added protection for shipping to boot. Anyway, cables and adapters are cheap if you can type monoprice.

Hello All:

I KNOW I'm not even close to getting all I can get out of the H31. I have been playing with DVE. I have the brightness adjustment down pat. Things go downhill fast from there. After explaining the contract adjustment, DVE goes on to say that it is a difficult adjustment with PJs, and it will be covered in troubleshooting. I've never really gotten it.

When it comes to colors, things ROCKET downhill. My picture is better than OTB only because I have been blindly following the settings that have been posted. It is frustrating becase I want to learn this and get better. I am willing to put in the time, but I don't know where to turn. HELP.

Nicholas B

Hello All:

I KNOW I'm not even close to getting all I can get out of the H31. I have been playing with DVE. I have the brightness adjustment down pat. Things go downhill fast from there. After explaining the contract adjustment, DVE goes on to say that it is a difficult adjustment with PJs, and it will be covered in troubleshooting. I've never really gotten it.

When it comes to colors, things ROCKET downhill. My picture is better than OTB only because I have been blindly following the settings that have been posted. It is frustrating becase I want to learn this and get better. I am willing to put in the time, but I don't know where to turn. HELP.

Nicholas B

Time to start anew. Nice feature about the Optoma is all the user menus will reset to default.
Get pad and paper.
Toss DVE/Avia for the time being.
Align Pj as you normally would.

Select a good DVD with a good daylight scene and pause.

In the 'picture' menu adjust Contrast and Brightness to your satisfaction. Select 'cinema' mode. Leave Gamma at "1". Do not touch 'color' or 'tint'. Write down values

In the 'image' menu set 'color temp' to 2, 'image mode' to 'film' and monkey with the RGB contrast values. Leave RGB brightness alone. When you are happy with the results, write down the values.

Finally, if component, go back to the 'picture' menu and select 'color' and fine tune for color saturation. Write down values.

Now you have a starting point and a way to compare against DVE. Use your new values as a guideline and reference to return to.

Test and test some more. It's not unusual to adjust for each DVD. You just need a dependable starting point as a reference. Learn to trust your eyes.

Thanks, CMRA. I'll start tonight. I want to be a greyscale master....

Nicholas B

Forgot to mention to 'reset' default values in ALL menus BEFORE you start. Use the "reset" at the bottom of each menu.

Got it.

"I am glad you two have persued and shared tapping the full potential of this PJ. I'm feeling comfortable around "her" now and will venture into those advanced adjustments. CMRA's comments just removed the last bit of hesitation on my part. "

Here's PC's verdict:

"The best overall image quality was delivered by the Optoma H31. This unit had a visibly deeper black level and better contrast than any of its competitors, lending the image an overall sparkle that was extremely impressive. The image was razor sharp, stable, well-saturated, and just plain enjoyable to watch. No matter which model we put up against the H31, when seen side by side there was not any doubt about which image was better. "

Wanna bet they did some 'tapping' too?

Or, my drop dead gorgeous almost think it's a CRT settings.

I knew it was good. I knew it could be better. Tom even let me know I didn't have to enter the service menu to make it happen. He was right.

So you want blue skys? Black blacks? White whites? Gorgeous fleshtones? Shadow detail (highlights in the blacks) like no tomorrow? A color pallet that won't quit? Or simply an H31 playing "The Fifth Element" out of this world and see what the big boys are talking about?

Write these down:

Picture menu:
Mode cinema
Cont: 4
Bright -8
Gamma 2

Image Menu:
Temp 2
Mode Film
Advanced ,
RGB cont 18,12,15
RGB bright -7,-7,-7

This setup is hooked up to an Tosh 5970 via HDMI>DVI
on a 'white' screen.
Each player has its own bias, but if you this Tosh...watch out. More later.

Or, my drop dead gorgeous almost think it's a CRT settings.

I knew it was good. I knew it could be better. Tom even let me know I didn't have to enter the service menu to make it happen. He was right.

So you want blue skys? Black blacks? White whites? Gorgeous fleshtones? Shadow detail (highlights in the blacks) like no tomorrow? A color pallet that won't quit? Or simply an H31 playing "The Fifth Element" out of this world and see what the big boys are talking about?

Write these down:

Picture menu:
Mode cinema
Cont: 4
Bright -8
Gamma 2

Image Menu:
Temp 2
Mode Film
Advanced ,
RGB cont 18,12,15
RGB bright -7,-7,-7

This setup is hooked up to an Tosh 5970 via HDMI>DVI
on a 'white' screen.
Each player has its own bias, but if you this Tosh...watch out. More later.

You mentioned earlier that 5980 had a green push problem over dvi...should I assume that the 5970 doesn't have this problem? Meaning, the 5970 is neutral out of the box over dvi?

Just want to know what kind of baseline you have with these settings...

Fleaman

Or, my drop dead gorgeous almost think it's a CRT settings.

I knew it was good. I knew it could be better. Tom even let me know I didn't have to enter the service menu to make it happen. He was right.

So you want blue skys? Black blacks? White whites? Gorgeous fleshtones? Shadow detail (highlights in the blacks) like no tomorrow? A color pallet that won't quit? Or simply an H31 playing "The Fifth Element" out of this world and see what the big boys are talking about?

Write these down:

Picture menu:
Mode cinema
Cont: 4
Bright -8
Gamma 2

Image Menu:
Temp 2
Mode Film
Advanced ,
RGB cont 18,12,15
RGB bright -7,-7,-7

This setup is hooked up to an Tosh 5970 via HDMI>DVI
on a 'white' screen.
Each player has its own bias, but if you this Tosh...watch out. More later.

With my S77 via HDMI>DVI I don't have the Temp option - anyone know why that could be?

You mentioned earlier that 5980 had a green push problem over dvi...should I assume that the 5970 doesn't have this problem? Meaning, the 5970 is neutral out of the box over dvi?

Just want to know what kind of baseline you have with these settings...

Fleaman

Remember, I observed the 'green push' on an LCD flat panel display. All displays are different. It may be perfectly neutral on a DLP PJ such as the H31. The 5970 has exhibited no green push whatsoever on the H31 or my CRT.

CMRA,
you mentioned that reds are a bit orange on HTPC but not the standalone DVD player? I am considering this projector, but I really want to use a HTPC. Can you see if it is possible to get a HTPC to product better reds?


Thanks , Dan

CMRA,
you mentioned that reds are a bit orange on HTPC but not the standalone DVD player? I am considering this projector, but I really want to use a HTPC. Can you see if it is possible to get a HTPC to product better reds?


Thanks , Dan
...that was in the early going with the Tosh and Panny via component hookup. The HTPC issue is all together different and is discussed heavily in Tom's (guitarman) major thread

Well,

I guess CMRA was right all along. The DVB318 1080i combined with the H31 didn't yield the HD look I was hoping for over component. I really wanted it to work, but I noticed only marginal improvement, and it did soften the image noticibly. So much so, that my GF noticed it right away and said "I don't like this, it looks fuzzy."

(Disclaimer: I just want you all to know I'm not a "brand whore" or have any loyalty to any company. I try to always find the best component in my budget regardless of the brand.)

The player is good, but if you already have a decent one, I really don't see a need for it. Here is what I thought:

-It plays SVCD's and VCD very well. It can upconvert it great and really helps a bad print looks decent. The downside was that any mpeg2 audio will only be sent thru the analog jacks to your receiver. Optical didn't work for vcd/svcd. On my panny, I only have optical out and can play all formats.

-There is added smoothness in 1080i over my panny, but is only noticible if I look really hard at some tiny feature in the background somewhere. I was expecting a "wow" factor, but it never came. PQ is comparable to 480i on my panasonic.

-The actual image size is somewhat deacreased in 1080i mode. It's slight, but I did notice. When I switched back to my plain ol 480i panny, the image was a little larger and gave me that "theater size" feeling, the 1080i had to be masked which stole a few pixels, I guess.

In the end, I really couldn't justify letting the $200 just go to waste on a second player. I was ready to keep it, but I couldn't justify it. The H31 just throws out such an awsome and rich image, maybe any player will suffice, but only a very small improvement came out at 1080i, so she will be going back. I am glad I got to try it out. If I hadn't , I know I would always wonder if it was better than what I got. Now I am satisfied. It's a great player, and very versatile, It just didn't fit my theater setup and conditions. I recommend it only if you don't like your present player and are curious.


Now bring on those H31 advanced settings calibrations! :D

Well,

I guess CMRA was right all along. The DVB318 1080i combined with the H31 didn't yield the HD look I was hoping for over component. I really wanted it to work, but I noticed only marginal improvement, and it did soften the image noticibly. So much so, that my GF noticed it right away and said "I don't like this, it looks fuzzy."


Improvement? Sounds to me like it was worse. I will go on, for the benefit of others like myself who found out the hard way.

Here's my background, old toshiba DVD player verus new panasonic S77 upconverting DVD player.

Toshiba over 480i and component, looks great. Toshiba over 480p component, noticably worse. Conclusion, the H31 is better at deinterlacing. Not surprising, my DVD player is old.

Pansonic S77 over HDMI/DVI-D and component versus Toshiba at 480i? Well, it is surprising how little difference there was if any in PQ.

S77 at all the upconverted resolutions? in my opinion, just made things blurry. Not surprising, DVD has 480 lines of vertical resolution, so does the H31, upconverting just means you have to downconvert again.

So my moral to this story, you get the new H31, you plug it into your old DVD player and you say, wow, that looks great. Well, it is! and then you think, wow if this is great what about upgrading my dvd player because i keep hearing how much better the picture is, i say trust your eyes

david

I returned my DVB318 because the improvement over my older progressive JVC is minimal, definately not worth the 200$ I would be spending for the unit. One of those return on investment factors...Ihad to go component due to my configuration but..thats my story and I am sticking to it...

S77 at all the upconverted resolutions? in my opinion, just made things blurry. Not surprising, DVD has 480 lines of vertical resolution, so does the H31, upconverting just means you have to downconvert again.

david

David, no argument here. The sharpest image requires 1 to 1 pixel mapping.

However, there are times when the upscaling can lend itself to certain DVDs. You will not be rewarded with a sharper image, rather a more filmlike silkier artifact reduced image. What I'm saying is transfers like ROTK take on an added demension at 1080i. It however is the exception rather than the rule.

One nice thing about a 5 pound PJ is you can take it anywhere (especially in its custom designed travel case).

I went over to George's last night where we ran his new 318 through its paces on his LCD flat panel and my H31. With the exception of some minor caveats, we both found the 318 a smashing good match for the H31.

Just for clarification, right out of the box, it upscaled on both component and DVI at 480p, 720p, 1080i. Unlike my Tosh, only one set of cables could be attached at a time. If you connect both at once, no signal.

The caveats: At the 480p resolution we both witnessed a minor green left side and red rightside outline in some scenes, most easily detected on faces. At 720p it was less noticable, and all but disappeared at 1080i. Since it happened on both displays, we concluded it was the Zenith.
Next, a green push in the dark scenes...but only on his LCD and only on the higher resolutions. At 480p, zero green push.

Other than that the picture was outstanding. Exceptional clarity and sharpness on all resolutions. Color was the equal of my Tosh, and the low black level was the best of any DVD player I ever tested. (Note: This player had a Feb 2005 manufacture date so it most likely had the lastest firmware).

I'm hoping I can talk my friend into bringing the unit over to my place so I can see It on my screen and in direct competition with my Tosh. I also want to see this unit hooked up to my CRT. As for now, another player with serious potential. Maybe more so, dare I say, than the coveted S97. It sure got alot of chatter in the CRT forum. I think I know why. More later.

That player is smashing on a set with native 1080i display like my old Toshiba 51HX83. It's funny how markedly different two sets of eyes could be. When I got my H31 I hooked up the Zenith and didn't really care for the pq too much. I thought that the image was soft at 1080i and it cast a distinctive red blanket over everything, particularly faces. I sold it to my friend that I also sold the Toshiba to. The Pioneer DV563 that I had lying around looked much better at 480p and a Denon 2200 that I had picked up was only a small step up from the Pio. What really irked me was that the Zenith's DVI port never did work for me with the H31, the player would just freeze and I would have to do a hard reboot everytime. Glad to hear that it works much better for you though. Keep the reports coming.

Moe

"What really irked me was that the Zenith's DVI port never did work for me with the H31, the player would just freeze and I would have to do a hard reboot everytime. Glad to hear that it works much better for you though. Keep the reports coming."

Try to keep in mind I'm working with very late editions of both units which implies firmware updates. In all likelihood both companies are responding to earlier 'bug' issues and are correcting them. I understand the zenith units are a breeze to update.

Now another little gremlin sneaks up on me. CAll it whatever, white push, blow out, hot whites, whatever...the Zenith loses highlight detail in the bright areas under DVI. Called Zenith and they are sending a fix(on disc)...but, if I install it, there goes the upscaling benefit for component. You can have it 'right' for component or DVI but not both. Go figure.

The Zenith firmware upgrade did the trick. White crush problem solved. Simply placed in the disc, followed instructions, and as Frankie says, "bad-a-bing bad-a boom...your'e a shark".
No more component upscale but that's OK. The DVI produced the better image anyway. (Or should I say a very good fuss free image. I'm confident if I were to take the time (again) I could coax a very good component image from the Zenith).

But, in the end, I still prefered the Tosh on the H31. Don't get me wrong. Everyone of the players I tried worked and worked well. There's just something a little more silky and colorful about the Tosh. It seems to allow the Optoma to blossom more showing off its (as Tom says) "citrus juicey" color pallet.

I posted this info on Tom's thread. As an afterthought, I'm posting it here also as it seem to get lost in the 'pixel counting' discussion/battle. I suppose when you get your PJ hung and screen masked 'just right' it's a pisser trying to adjust for pixel shifting or missing pixels.

Anyway, I was able to play Shark Tale in its entirety with only a minor few 'tears'. When I opted for a film based transfer DVD tearing became much more frequent. At this time I have to suspect it's more an issue with the codec sending flags to the Optoma than anything else. Since my other PJs are immune to the same, methinks a firmware update is in order from Optoma.

Using my other HTPC, I was able to produce 1:1 pixel mapping with my nVidia 5900XT (848x480). I'm not as sold on this as others. Then again, I only tested for a short time so perhaps time will tell. It's pretty easy to switch so I'm sure I'll do more testing in the near future.

Anyway, one man writer to unknown reader(s) over and out.

That player is smashing on a set with native 1080i display like my old Toshiba 51HX83. It's funny how markedly different two sets of eyes could be. When I got my H31 I hooked up the Zenith and didn't really care for the pq too much. I thought that the image was soft at 1080i and it cast a distinctive red blanket over everything, particularly faces. I sold it to my friend that I also sold the Toshiba to. The Pioneer DV563 that I had lying around looked much better at 480p and a Denon 2200 that I had picked up was only a small step up from the Pio. What really irked me was that the Zenith's DVI port never did work for me with the H31, the player would just freeze and I would have to do a hard reboot everytime. Glad to hear that it works much better for you though. Keep the reports coming.

Moe

Moe, what you report is often the case. Check out Tom's settings vs mine as a case in point. Or consider my Panny S97 vs Zenith 318 vs Tosh 5970 figures. Sure enough, all differ. Each source, screen, and environment all add to the mix. Perhaps Tom has the best approach: use your calibration software to get you close and then fine tune with your eyes.
FWIW, I often have to adjust settings for each individual DVD. Mostly just contrast and brightness. Piece of cake on the H31 remote (nice feature).

FWIW, I often have to adjust settings for each individual DVD. Mostly just contrast and brightness. Piece of cake on the H31 remote (nice feature).

Same here. Mostly the Brightness I have to notch 1 to 3 clicks on different dvd's to avoid (ok, lessen) dark scene dithering.

That's the one thing I'd rather not have to do, but when you have a digital projector and a big screen, it seems to be a necessity.

Fleaman

Same here. Mostly the Brightness I have to notch 1 to 3 clicks on different dvd's to avoid (ok, lessen) dark scene dithering.

Fleaman

Thanks for piping in. I was beginning to think I was the only one writing and reading this thread.
The term you use, "dark scene dithering" escapes me. Perhaps you can explain?

I'm surprised guys..GAMMA of 2?? Gamma of anything higher than 1 seems to give the picture a HAZE for me...

But..I haven't yet tweaked the advanced RGB's yet.....

Hmmm..will mess with this tomorrow I think.

These gamma changes can be deceptive. If you change it from say 1 to 2 or even 3, it may look a little washed out yet details may be also clearer. If you stick with it, you'll get used to it and it'll look normal. Then, when you go back to level 1 again you may find that it seems too dark now even though before it appeared just right to you. This is what I've found anyway. :)

CMRA,

Don't worry, I'm still reading this thread as well! ;)

Wayne

These gamma changes can be deceptive. If you change it from say 1 to 2 or even 3, it may look a little washed out yet details may be also clearer. If you stick with it, you'll get used to it and it'll look normal. Then, when you go back to level 1 again you may find that it seems too dark now even though before it appeared just right to you. This is what I've found anyway. :)

CMRA,

Don't worry, I'm still reading this thread as well! ;)

Wayne

Here's the key. If you boost the Gamma you increase the shadow detail, BUT, you'll need to compensate for the boost (or wash out the blacks). Simply go into the advanced RGB "brightness" and reduce R,G, and B. I found -7,-7,-7 just fine on my setup when going from Gamma 1 to Gamma 2. Your mileage will/may vary.
Another reason I like the Optomas. You don't have to fuss with the service menu to fine tune the machine.

Yeah I agree this thing kicks absolute ass.....I can't believe the quality of the picture for the money. I'm sure it wont calibrate the same but in the real world of my own perception, this thing throws as nice an image as my Mits does. Perhaps a little less black, a little less vibrancy of the color, but thats because of the lumens.....no regrets at all.

Amazing little machine..FP from here on in.....no lookin back :)

Good tip CMRA! Thanks.

Wayne

Good tip CMRA! Thanks.

Wayne

I've been tempted to fuss with Gamma 3 also. But I may have to use my gray screen if I go that route. You can only lower the brightness and contrast so much. ( you end up with a flat, lifeless image when you do) The goal would be to retain the blacks and bring out as much lower black level detail as possible.

Thanks for piping in. I was beginning to think I was the only one writing and reading this thread.
The term you use, "dark scene dithering" escapes me. Perhaps you can explain?

Basically it's the mosquito type noise that's in the very dark areas of the picture that the dlp mirrors are still active....so they are flickering on and off. You can turn the brightness down to turn them off, but sometimes you loose some shadow detail. So in a space scene, you turn the brightness down just to the point that there are no mirrors flickering on the black space background.

I've found that there is sorta a balance between this dithering and shadow detail which (for me) needs to be adjusted for depending on the dvd playing, one movie's space scene may not have any dithering, but another movies space scene I would have to turn the brightness down 2 clicks to stop the dithering.

Projectors with an additional dark green segment on the color wheel (like the Optoma H79) are suppose to address this dark scene dithering by making the transition from dark to not as dark a little smoother with the dark green segment of the color wheel and those who have seen a projector like the H79 have noticed the difference.

To me the dark scene dithering on a lower end projector like the H31 is noticeable enough to bug me to alter the brightness dependent on the dvd playing. One day when a projector like the H79 comes down in price ($2000 :D), I will make the upgrade not so much for the resolution increase, but also for the upgrade in dark scene smoothness of blacks due to the extra dark green segmented color wheel. Dark scene dithering actually bothers me more that resolution as it's more noticeable than the low resolution of the H31 panel (to me).

Fleaman

Basically it's the mosquito type noise that's in the very dark areas of the picture that the dlp mirrors are still active....so they are flickering on and off. You can turn the brightness down to turn them off, but sometimes you loose some shadow detail. So in a space scene, you turn the brightness down just to the point that there are no mirrors flickering on the black space background.



To me the dark scene dithering on a lower end projector like the H31 is noticeable enough to bug me to alter the brightness dependent on the dvd playing. One day when a projector like the H79 comes down in price ($2000 :D), I will make the upgrade not so much for the resolution increase, but also for the upgrade in dark scene smoothness of blacks due to the extra dark green segmented color wheel. Dark scene dithering actually bothers me more that resolution as it's more noticeable than the low resolution of the H31 panel (to me).

Fleaman

Ok, I know what you write about. When DLP displays first came out I saw said in droves. Looked like 'ants' crawling when you got close enough to the screen to see the pixel grid. But, I have not noticed it on the H31. In fact, in the dark scenes it's friggin hard to see the pixel grid even up close. I'll take a closer look tonight and even pause my source to observe and report back.

Ok, I know what you write about. When DLP displays first came out I saw said in droves. Looked like 'ants' crawling when you got close enough to the screen to see the pixel grid. But, I have not noticed it on the H31. In fact, in the dark scenes it's friggin hard to see the pixel grid even up close. I'll take a closer look tonight and even pause my source to observe and report back.

I find the dithering to be in blocks much larger than individual pixels, hence the reason it's more noticeable than pixel structure. But, yeah, you can't see the pixel lines in dark areas.

Yes, at 2x screen widths, it can be hard to see on some very well transferred dvd's, but on other dvd's, it can be quite noticeable even at 2x screen widths.

Then again, I'm not sure how much that is to blame on the dvd or the H31. Being they try to address this issue in projectors like the H79, it can't all be the fault of the dvd.

Fleaman

it can be hard to see on some very well transferred dvd's, but on other dvd's, it can be quite noticeable even at 2x screen widths.

Fleaman

Well, that explains alot. Bad transfers and PJs don't mix...at least in my theater. Bad transfers have so much inherent noise and grain I have trouble viewing them on 'small' displays. The quality swing amazes me.

Well, that explains alot. Bad transfers and PJs don't mix...at least in my theater. Bad transfers have so much inherent noise and grain I have trouble viewing them on 'small' displays. The quality swing amazes me.

Yeah, the difference between dvd's (pic quality) is not only amazing, but disconcerting.

A very well transferred dvd like ' The 5th Element ' appears to be Hi-Def compared to some other dvd's I have. Not to mention that I have a copy of 'Scareface' that is a downright rip-off. It literally looks like I'm watching a Std Def tv broadcast or a VHS copy! Apparently they might have a newer version out that's better.

Most of quality loss seems to 1st appear in the dark shadow details being lost and becoming a blob of blocks of different colored pixelized junk.

While I will note the potential benefit of Hi-def dvd's to come in the future, I really only want std-def dvd's to be mastered/mastered correctly with low compression now.

Fleaman

I only have about seven hours on my bulb so far, tho will put more on this week. Probably 1/3 of that is with AVIA :D

I tried CMRA's settings from a page ago to compare with my basic AVIA calibration. CRT-like is RIGHT...those are excellent settings.....the only problem is, with my player, those settings crush blacks and I lose alot of shadow detail. But they were close, and a step up from my settings at Gamma of 1.

A few bumps up on the brightness settings for R/G/B, leaving Gamma at 2, and I was back in business. Decided to give it a litmus test: HELLBOY. And the entire movie my jaw was on the floor. Rich blacks, amazing colors, etc.

AND I saw my first rainbow! I darted my eyes when I heard a noise in the basement where my PJ is, and just at that time a dark scene with a flashlight was moving, and I saw "THE RAINBOW EFFECT". It lasted for like 1/bajillionth of a second, and I said to myself "Man if THAT is what people are bitching about.....talk about your picking nits!". I never saw another one...in fact I only notice them if I stare off at one part of the screen, like a zombie, and only then its in my peripheral vision. This little projector rocks.

I swear for most of the time I may as well have been watching a HD feed, it just had that incredible "POP" to the image, with lots and lots of minute detail able to be seen. I did notice what seemed to be a greenish tint to things during CERTAIN SCENES, but I'm not sure if those are in the movie or not.

When Agent..whatever his name is..and the pyrotechnic girl are on their "date" in the park at night with Hellboy watching from the rooftops above, for some reason I detected a greenish "tint" in their skin and the surrounding area. Now, they WERE lit by streetlights, so I'm thinking this could have just been the way the scene actually looks. I'll have to try it out later on my CRT to see if I notice the same thing. I fired up avia, and according to avia with the green filter I am actually UNDER pushing Green by a significant amount, so if I saw greenish tints I'm guessing it was probably supposed to look that way.

Everybody elses fleshtones looked good......all the other colors seemed spot on. I'm just not entirely sure if I should sit there with AVIA and adjust the RGB's Brightness and Contrast to balance them out at 0% or not......based on the image I had this afternoon, I'm thinking I wont bother.

Now I'm just patiently waiting for my ceiling mount to get here.....

Still plenty of OH.MY.GOD. Left I'm sure :D

"I'll take a closer look tonight and even pause my source to observe and report back. "

OK, I kept my promise. I played POTC (loaded with dark scenes) and failed to see any dithering on my H31. My eyeballs were within inches of the screen. Even when I paused, the DMD mirrors locked tight.
Next movie time I'll put in a really poor DVD transfer to view and see what happens. Stay tuned.

OK, here's something new. I'm trying to get my mits on my friend's JVC D-VHS player and borrow two of his tapes. He's reluctant, but I assure him it's for 'AV scientific' reasons.
Just curious, am I the only one who wants to know how d-vhs fairs on the H31?
I suppose if I showed him enough support he might even be open to have me tote my H31 over to his theater. Who want's to know?

"I'll take a closer look tonight and even pause my source to observe and report back. "

Next movie time I'll put in a really poor DVD transfer to view and see what happens. Stay tuned.

Hmmmm...I'm beginning to think the dither of mention is independent of the H31. I keep looking for those 'shaky' mirrors even on bad transfers. None yet. Funny, I see them all the time on DLP RPTV sets at BB. You don't suppose it has something to do with scaling, do you? They convert 1080i signals to 720p whereas my DVDs are 480p or upconverted.

While I will note the potential benefit of Hi-def dvd's to come in the future, I really only want std-def dvd's to be mastered/mastered correctly with low compression now.

Fleaman

You know, i was thinking the same thing myself. 855x480 from the H31 is displaying a great image but as you said, bad DVD's and compression artifacts are very apparent on a larger screen.

i'm with you all the way on this, what we really need is a better compressed disks or how about less compressed DVD's?

There seems to be a lot of room for improvement within the current DVD resolution.

I hope in our rush to higher resolution HD we don't get even worse picture quality.

David

It took a really bad section of a poor transfer but sure enough the mirrors were fluttering like no tomorrow. Along with the mirror issue were plenty of artifacts. It's like the mirrors can't figure out what they are suppose to do so they vibrate away creating the 'crawing ant' illusion.
Guess that settles it. Live with it or steer clear of bad transfers.

Yep, just make the 480 transfers properly. Fleaman was right.

Just curious, am I the only one who wants to know how d-vhs fairs on the H31?


Am I the only one who wants to know?

Apparrantly :)

DVHS is really REALLY a niche product........they make Laserdisc look like widespread distribution.

Apparrantly :)

DVHS is really REALLY a niche product........they make Laserdisc look like widespread distribution.

Indeed. If you are referring to the 75 or so JVC D-theater titles for sale. But, some mighty clever AVSers have found out how to record hidef content and create 1080i d-vhs libraries with scores of movie titles. Another member knows how to modify the cassette housings so you can use inexpensive tapes. The learning curve begins here, soon, I hope.

Well, the only way I'd get any HiDef content on my own would be to tape it off HD Cable.

And since even HBO will macroblock once in awhile (and the other channels will macroblock FREQUENTLY in fast action), the quality would ultimately be pointless for me. To those of you getting highly uncompressed images via, say, satellite..I salute you :)

However, I *fully* expect HD content on DISC to be superior to any of the heavily-compressed imagery I get over digital cable to be. And I'll just build my collection the old fashioned way when those come out, by buying the odd movie I "Must own" in HD.

Which, right now, wont be much.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, HD is nice....but its never been (to my eyes) the Virtual Window that so many people play it up to be. It looks really good, but not necessarily so amazingly good that I'd rush out and replace my whole DVD collection because DVD looks ugly by comparison. It doesn't.

Well said! A very good DVD transfer right now probably won't look too bad next to an HD DVD of the same. I say this by comparing really good DVD transfers to HD content and the difference is there but to me not that great a deal. The problem is that it seems really good DVD transfers although becoming more prevalent, still are too low percentage wise.

Wayne

Well said! A very good DVD transfer right now probably won't look too bad next to an HD DVD of the same. I say this by comparing really good DVD transfers to HD content and the difference is there but to me not that great a deal. The problem is that it seems really good DVD transfers although becoming more prevalent, still are too low percentage wise.

Wayne

You must buy the same ones I do, right?

There truly are some excellent 480 transfers out there. Unfortunately, there's even more 480 gawd awful ones too...and lots in between. Chances are, we'll be saying pretty much the same after 1080 has been around for awhile. (I'm betting there will be plenty of crappy 1080 transfers too).

Good point 'C' !

Thank goodness most of the newer DVDs sold today show fairly well if not really well but the earlier pressings can be absolutely horrendous.

I wonder if the early adapters to HD DVD will find the same thing and then following that as you say, it may be kind of hit or miss with the quality. I mean surely we'll still be able to spot a bad disc @ 1080i.

Wayne

1080i is going to be a problem because of the amount of visual restoration that has to happen. The *smart* studios were the ones who converted to HD first and cleaned up the prints at that level. Then downrezzed those to put on DVD.

See the DIVIMAX reissue from Anchor Bay of George Romeros DAWN OF THE DEAD, the one from 78 or 79. That is a really fantastic example of an old film converted to HD and then put on 480p DVD, the picture quality is amazing and the print is nice and clean, as I recall.

Of course, I also dont expect to see lots of b-movies and back catalog titles put out on HD-DVD, I just don't see the market for them...UNLESS the movie companies start issuing movies ONLY on HD formats, and abandon DVD as a method of "forced upgrade".

Just last night I watched 'Gladiator' (again) for the umpteenth time on my H31. Even sitting 1.6x away I said to myself 'It really doesn't need to get better than this' to enjoy. Sure, twice the resolution would be nicer but I had no trouble getting into the movie at all. The colors were certainly there (thanks Optoma) the screen was big enough to fullfill the cinematic 'feeling', with the exception of a few bright scenes you couldn't even detect the SDE, and the popcorn was microwave fresh. And to top that I have a few 'even better' 480 transfers.

And at the other end of the scale...

I just got 'Goodfellas' from my big dvd order (the sale that deepdiscountdvd.com had) and it is horrendous! It said "Enhanced for widescreen" on the back of the cover, popped it open, threw it in and guess what? It's letterboxed NON-anamorphic!
I got this little box of a picture surrounded on all 4 sides by big black oceans of boarders. Not only that, but even with the picture about 50% smaller than usual, it looked HORRIBLE! Worse than std cable/tv.

I did some research and it seems that the 'Special Edition' with 2 discs in it is a real anamorphic transfer that was done right. So the $8 I paid for this one ain't gonna do it, I have to get the $20 special edition one.

Wonderful.

Another one I can't watch is 'Scareface', and it's not due to the wonderfully dated '80's soundtrack either. That's another disc that looks worse that std tv off the air. I think they re-did the transfer on another one of those special editions...what a way to get us videofiles to buy 2 of the same damn movies.

Ok, rant off.

:D

Fleaman

Seriously, if I hear any one of you KNOCKING OUTDATED 80's SOUNDTRACKS I will fly out and beat you with empty DVD cases :)

80's Synth Sountracks rule compared to the Hip-Hop and CrapMetal soundtracks we have today!!!! BUT I DIGRESS :)

My copy of Goodfellas is a flipper, too...and the first 5 minutes of the movie on side 2 I am PRETTY SURE has a solid vertical line running down the center of the screen. I have no idea how THAT happened but I'm pretty sure its there......

Goodfellas, the widescreen version of that Sean Connery space western movie (whos name now escapes me, he's a marshall on the mining world of IO), and the first release of HIGHLANDER (complete with THX certification no less!) rank as some of the worst DVD transfers of all time from major studios.

Just last night I watched 'Gladiator' (again) for the umpteenth time on my H31. Even sitting 1.6x away I said to myself 'It really doesn't need to get better than this' to enjoy. Sure, twice the resolution would be nicer but I had no trouble getting into the movie at all. The colors were certainly there (thanks Optoma) the screen was big enough to fullfill the cinematic 'feeling', with the exception of a few bright scenes you couldn't even detect the SDE, and the popcorn was microwave fresh. And to top that I have a few 'even better' 480 transfers.


I am having my H31 installed this weekend. My screen is going to be 96"and Gladiator is one of the movies I am most looking forward to revisiting once it is all calibrated. I previously had a Hitachi 57T500 with a Denon 2900. I loved my 57", but after watching to many movies at my buddy's house on his projector, I realized I wanted something bigger. I am just praying that I won't be disappointed going from a CRT to a DLP. I am going to have it ISF calibrated, like I did with my Hitachi, and I am hoping this will make it even better! I REALLY enjoy my blacks being black....:)

"I realized I wanted something bigger. I am just praying that I won't be disappointed going from a CRT to a DLP. "

Coach,
I enjoy the likes of all my displays which include CRT, DLP, and LCD. All are wonderful, none are perfect.
Inky blacks are the CRT's stronghold. So much so your local cinema waves the 'no contest' flag. Digitals are a smidge behind that. Make the mental adjustment and you'll be just fine. Most movies look just fine. There's only a handful I own that require a CRT.
You'll need to work with your H31. Out of the box settings are way too bright and washed out. I don't think you'll need to go the ISF route, but, I won't tell you not to either.
Anyway, enjoy. The rest of us do.

And at the other end of the scale...

Another one I can't watch is 'Scareface', and it's not due to the wonderfully dated '80's soundtrack either. That's another disc that looks worse that std tv off the air. I think they re-did the transfer on another one of those special editions...what a way to get us videofiles to buy 2 of the same damn movies.

Ok, rant off.

:D

Fleaman

The worst film transfer I recall seeing had to be "Conan the Barbarian" and the most pitiful sound track came from "Chariots of the Gods".
On the flip side, "Men in Black II" and "LOTR-ROTK" highlight my library showing just how GOOD 480 transfers can be. Shark Tale and The Incredibles take top CGI honors.

"I enjoy the likes of all my displays which include CRT, DLP, and LCD. All are wonderful, none are perfect."

CRTs give the deepest inkiest blacks.
LCDs give the richest most vibrant colors.
LCD flat panels give the sharpest most SDE free image.
Plasmas give the biggest 'daylight' flat panel image.
DLPs give good blacks, good colors, and lower SDE.

Could SED be the answer?

I am having my H31 installed this weekend. My screen is going to be 96"and Gladiator is one of the movies I am most looking forward to revisiting once it is all calibrated. I previously had a Hitachi 57T500 with a Denon 2900. I loved my 57", but after watching to many movies at my buddy's house on his projector, I realized I wanted something bigger. I am just praying that I won't be disappointed going from a CRT to a DLP. I am going to have it ISF calibrated, like I did with my Hitachi, and I am hoping this will make it even better! I REALLY enjoy my blacks being black....:)


You should have Avia by now so tune up the blacks and whites and color adjustment. Then use the grayscale tunup tips I put in the first post of the H31 reivew/screenshots thread.

This weekend is now. :)
enjoy it

Tom, I was reading your post on how to calibrate the grey scale.
I did use the grey scale to calibrate my H31 and my settings are:

Mode Cinema
Contrast 5
Brightness -8
Gamma 1

White peak 0
Film

R contrast -13
G contrast 0
B contrast -4

R brightness 0
G brightness 0
B brightness 0

However after reading your post on grey scale should I go with something like:

Mode Cinema
Contrast 5
Brightness -8
Gamma 1

White peak 0
Film

R contrast 0 <-------- instead of lowering the R
G contrast +13 <--------raise the G
B contrast +9 <--------and raise the B

R brightness 0
G brightness 0
B brightness 0

?????

I have not tried it with Avias test patterns yet however from reading your suggestions that is how I took it.

Jeff

The projector is now installed and we watched Miss Congeniality 2 tonight. I know it is not the best choice, but my wife really wanted to see it. I definitely need some adjustments done to it. I am having it ISF calibrated on Monday afternoon. I know that it might not be that necessary to do, but that was what I said about my Hitachi 57t500 that I used to have. Then, I had Chad come down and work his magic on my TV and I thought I had a brand new unit! Since, he did such a great job on that unit, I am hoping he can make my H31 look awesome.

So far, I am not very happy with the picture. I think I am feeling that way because I was used to my old TV. I know the picture won't look the same but I am hoping after the calibration is done, I will be more content with it. This afternoon I was noticing some SDE while we were setting it up. My buddy installed it for me and he was using Bugs Life. The other problem we discovered was that during the day we had some light coming in where I thought it wouldn't. So, tomorrow we are going to look for some black blinds. The SDE virtually went away tonight and I think that might be because it was 100% dark in the basement.

Are their any minor adjustments or something else I could do to prevent that if it begins to get worse? I am sitting about 13.5 feet from the screen.

Should my last resort be ugrading this unit to the H57 if I am not happy once it is calibrated?

"Should my last resort be ugrading this unit to the H57 if I am not happy once it is calibrated? "

Why stop there? It appears you are SDE sensitive. Avid CRTers tend to be. Even 720p may not do it for you. Have you considered CRT FP?

I did consider a CRT front projector, but my room is 18 x 11 with 7 foot ceilings. I looked at some, did some measuring and realized it would have been extremely to big. I am going to see what happens after I have it calibrated tomorrow night... We shall see!

I did consider a CRT front projector, but my room is 18 x 11 with 7 foot ceilings. I looked at some, did some measuring and realized it would have been extremely to big. I am going to see what happens after I have it calibrated tomorrow night... We shall see!

No coffee table options, Coach? Handy snack tray and hushbox included.

UPDATE!! GREAT NEWS!!
As of 8:30 eastern time on 7/18

I just had Chad B ISF calibrate my projector and after 5 1/2 hours of work, my projector looks WONDERFUL!! The first thing that was discovered was the fact that the blue component cable wasn't plugged in all the way and that is why I had such poor coloring! DUH! I guess I should have checked all the connections. Chad said that it all it took was barely touching it to complete the connection. I had questioned if the cable had a bad connection, but he said it didn't.

So, FINALLY I now can say that I am WOW'D! BY how this looks. The blacks are excellent even for a CRT guy like myself.. The SDE is barely there on bright scenes, but I really have to focus in and look for it.

My Denon 2900 is an excellent compliment to the H31. This setup is going to make me happy for quite awhile. I will not be doing any upgrading on the video side of my setup(unless the dvd player goes out) until 720 OR 1080 FP are affordable and when HD-DVD and BLURAY stop their bickering and come to an agreement on an universal format!

IF YOU LIVE IN THE OHIO, WV and VA area I HIGHLY recommend CHAD for your calibration!

Glad that things worked out Coach.

UPDATE!! GREAT NEWS!!
As of 8:30 eastern time on 7/18

I just had Chad B ISF calibrate my projector and after 5 1/2 hours of work, my projector looks WONDERFUL!!
!

Congrats. Amazing piece of technology, isn't it?
PS: You'll love DVI-d too.

I've been thinking of getting a H31, but I really need to see what the rainbows are like on this before I buy one. Is there anyone in Columbus, OH. I might even make a quick trip to Cinncy to see your's Coach2369 if that would be ok.

Nate,
I would be more than happy to show you my setup. I had several good people from this forum do this for me! I think seeing one of these setup in a home is the best way to demo front projectors.

You can email me at jrobison@cinci.rr.com to set something up. I highly recommend it.

Or, my drop dead gorgeous almost think it's a CRT settings.

I knew it was good. I knew it could be better. Tom even let me know I didn't have to enter the service menu to make it happen. He was right.

So you want blue skys? Black blacks? White whites? Gorgeous fleshtones? Shadow detail (highlights in the blacks) like no tomorrow? A color pallet that won't quit? Or simply an H31 playing "The Fifth Element" out of this world and see what the big boys are talking about?

Write these down:

Picture menu:
Mode cinema
Cont: 4
Bright -8
Gamma 2

Image Menu:
Temp 2
Mode Film
Advanced ,
RGB cont 18,12,15
RGB bright -7,-7,-7

This setup is hooked up to an Tosh 5970 via HDMI>DVI
on a 'white' screen.
Each player has its own bias, but if you this Tosh...watch out. More later.

How do you have the 'Temp' control available when using DVI? My H31 has no Temp control available when I'm using the DVI input (digital of course).

:confused:

Fleaman

How do you have the 'Temp' control available when using DVI? My H31 has no Temp control available when I'm using the DVI input (digital of course).

:confused:

Fleaman

Please to forgive kind sir? Omit 'temp' and use the other settings (if you have a Tosh 5970). If not, go with Tom's approach.

Please to forgive kind sir? Omit 'temp' and use the other settings (if you have a Tosh 5970). If not, go with Tom's approach.

Did that...seems pretty good so far. Haven't really made any comparisons, just trying to watch Constantine tonight.

BTW, running a Momitsu V880DX, but I think it's DVI out is fairly neutral, so I seem to get a pretty good result with your settings. Also, I think the H31 DVI's in's seem to be better calibrated than the components, or at least less variable between units when using the DVI inputs.

Fleaman

Also, I think the H31 DVI's in's seem to be better calibrated than the components, or at least less variable between units when using the DVI inputs.

Fleaman

That sums up my experience. Much easier to calibrate too. Enjoy.

Hey CMRA,

I think you have the superbit 5th Element? Wondering if you notice what I've noticed: Compared to most of my dvd's, this disc always seems to require a few more notches less clicks on the brightness control. As an example, with your settings I would have to cut the bright back from -8 to -11, otherwise everything seems a little washed out. It's most noticeable in the opening space sequence that then pans to the blue earth. The 'black space' only gets black when I turn down to -11, then it's spectacular, but @ -8 it's very washed out. Even through the rest of the movie, -11 seems to work better than -8.

This particular disc seems to have a different video level standard than other dvd discs, if that is even the correct term.

Have you seen the same thing?

Fleaman

Hey CMRA,

This particular disc seems to have a different video level standard than other dvd discs, if that is even the correct term.

Have you seen the same thing?

Fleaman

I find most discs have some variance. Once I got the color and gamma dialed in to my satisfaction, I tend to adjust brightness and contrast for EACH DVD, not just FE.
On CGI transfers, I find I have to boost contrast and lower brightness a good deal more to get the image to 'Pop' on the screen.

Guys, to adjust the PJ to balance colors on the RGB side of things, if you want to increase the color you essentially ADD contrast and DROP brightness for that given color, yes? Then go back and re-calibrate with Avia's basic video adjustments to re-do overall white/black balance?

Guys, to adjust the PJ to balance colors on the RGB side of things, if you want to increase the color you essentially ADD contrast and DROP brightness for that given color, yes? Then go back and re-calibrate with Avia's basic video adjustments to re-do overall white/black balance?

HR, Tom's approach, as I recall, was to Avia calibrate first, then fine tune with your eyes.
Bumping the contrast and reducing the brightness does tend to add snap to the image. However, doing so risks crushing the highlight and shadow detail. Ideally for my viewing pleasure is to 'dial' in as much 'snap' as possible without compromising information in the dark areas or blowing out the light/white areas.

Please note. Calibration software, even the simplified THX version you find on many DVDs, is focused hugely on recreating the entire 'grayscale' (or as much as is possible) on your display. This assures an 'ideal' gamma curve but guarantees no viewing satisfaction.

Hehehehehe....I like that greyscale quote ;)

Anyhow, here's the thing. My reds and greens are off according to AVIA and the little color swatches they provide. Blue is pretty close. I thought before I was noticing that colors, particularly green, seemed "pronounced".....I was noticing green where I thought there shouldn't be any....(note I said THOUGHT)....but when I looked at Avia's patterns, green was significantly under-pushed.....my green is very very pale, not anywhere close to 0 according to avia and the filter. Color Huge and Saturation are very close.....red is pale, green is very pale.....I wanted to bump them up a bit but wasn't sure exactly how to do that.

Thats why I asked about fudging with the RGB values directly in terms of contrast/brightness.

I am probably going to pick up a GrayWolf screen which means a complete recalibration will be in order..but in the meantime I am wondering if I should just ignore avia and leave that stuff the hell alone, I just have that nagging feeling that my colors are "off" somehow.

I WILL say this however. When I watched MONSTERS, INC on my 65" Mits....I thought Sully, the big blue hairy monster voiced by John Goodman...was all blue.

When I watched it on the H31, for the first time I realized...HE HAS SPOTS. !!!

I never KNEW that or SAW THAT on the Mits...on the Mits the spots are very, very subtle and I never noticed them at all. Suddenly on the H31 i'm like "holy smokes...he has spots all over him"...I thought he was a uniform blue.

So now I'm wondering...DOES he have pronounced spots, or is the H31 accentuating a color that I shouldn't be seeing so much of...ie: is the CRT projected image (cant really see the spots) correct, or is the H31 (really see the spots easily) correct.

?????

Hehehehehe....I like that greyscale quote ;)

So now I'm wondering...DOES he have pronounced spots, or is the H31 accentuating a color that I shouldn't be seeing so much of...ie: is the CRT projected image (cant really see the spots) correct, or is the H31 (really see the spots easily) correct.

?????

You should easily see his purple spots on BOTH displays. I have CRT, DLP, and LCD and Sully always comes out the same: Teal/torquise blue with purple spots. (some scenes more apparent than others). Study your DVD jacket. That's what he looks like.

HeadRusch

If your greyscale is a little blue - then that means your magenta is going to go towards purple, and your cyans to blue Combine that with CRT's that are really bad at saturated blues and the monster looks like a blue blob. Add in some nasty SVM/EE that destroys fine detail, analog circuitry and tubes with poor bandwidth incapable of fine detail.....

So if you have your H31 properly calibrated to D65 - then indeed you should be seeing spots and textures on the Monsters. I use these clips in my DVD demo reel for that very reason - a calibrated display is a true eye opener when you see what you have been missing.

Just wondering if anyone has had a play around with Gamma 3 and above in Film mode? I've finally given my H31 a half decent calibration session after letting it clock up a good few hours on the lamp first. Settled on Gamma 2 before adjusting anything else, as Gamma 1 lacks a tad too much shadow detail for my liking. But I've managed to catch a couple of films over the weekend too, and I'm still finding myself itching for that little bit more detail in dark scenes. Messed about with the Panasonic S97's own gamma control in conjunction with the H31 Gamma 2, and it does help shadow detail a little. But even a full +5 on the S97 doesn't come close to the affect of a notch up to the next gamma level on the H31 itself. Plus, it's generally said to be not a wise move to adjust gamma at source. Obviously, I don't fancy knackering my colours and actual black level up in the process, so I'm hoping I might be able to compensate for the increase to Gamma 3 with a reduction on brightness whilst still passing BTB. Will have another tweak tomorrow, anyway...

Incidentally, for all you S97/H31 users - make sure your brightness is set to +1 and contrast to -1 on your S97 otherwise you'll be crushing blacks and whites. Avia won't tell you that, but DVE's reverse grey ramps will ;)

Damian.

Damian, Similar results here. Panny S97 over dvi and film/gamma 1 on some movies the shadow detail is a little muddy so I tend to go to gamma 2 for dark films and leave it on gamma 1 for normal films and stuff like Monsters Inc. Next week I'll do runs for all three gammas on my SMART III and see what it spits out for numbers.

Moe

Damian, Similar results here. Panny S97 over dvi and film/gamma 1 on some movies the shadow detail is a little muddy so I tend to go to gamma 2 for dark films and leave it on gamma 1 for normal films and stuff like Monsters Inc. Next week I'll do runs for all three gammas on my SMART III and see what it spits out for numbers.

Moe

Since I might be the new owner of a slightly used S97 soon your future posts will have an audience. Please explain 'Smart III'.

Could Shrek 2 be the new CGI darling? Wanna see a new dimension in eye candy? Gorgeous colors on the H31 (as expected) but some real 3D dimensionality too. This DVD 'pops', agreed?

I will have to check that out tonight. I have only had my H31 setup and calibrated for a week now. I have only watched Miss Congeniality 2, Be Cool and Van Helsing. The H31 did pretty good with all three.

Any other suggestions for early viewing on this unit?

Any other suggestions for early viewing on this unit?
The H31, and Optoma in general, is known for its sumptuous colors. With that in mind, treat yourself to Moulin Rouge and Shark Tale.

I have never seen either of those movies, so I will most definitely check them out.

Thanks for the suggestions. I was also thinking about picking up The 5th Element because I have heard good things about the colors in that one as well.

I have never seen either of those movies, so I will most definitely check them out.

Thanks for the suggestions. I was also thinking about picking up The 5th Element because I have heard good things about the colors in that one as well.

Yep, 5th Element is a good one....try to get the superbit version if possible, it's practically a reference dvd. It's a really good transfer and rather sharp with good focus and very good smooth blacks.

Not a bad movie either! It seemed a bit cheesy at 1st, but after many viewings it becomes more artistic to me. It is one of those movies you can watch many times.
I actually think it's a really good movie...but only after watching it a few times....

Fleaman

I was wondering if the Superbit was better than the most recent release. I will look for a good deal on the Superbit edition.

Any release of 5th Element is generally good. The Superbit one ups the bitrate (duh) so details in the backgrounds look marginally sharper, but as with all Superbit DVD's you wont notice the extra detail unless you zoom in or do a frame by frame comparison with non superbit titles.

Still, when you're watching superbit you are *generally* comfortable in knowing you're getting the best that MPEG2 can deliver in terms of bitrate and detail. The quality of the transfer itself is another matter.

Any release of 5th Element is generally good. The Superbit one ups the bitrate (duh) so details in the backgrounds look marginally sharper, but as with all Superbit DVD's you wont notice the extra detail unless you zoom in or do a frame by frame comparison with non superbit titles.

Still, when you're watching superbit you are *generally* comfortable in knowing you're getting the best that MPEG2 can deliver in terms of bitrate and detail. The quality of the transfer itself is another matter.


And I would agree.

Superbit is a barely noticeable difference....you would have to really look. The transfer of the film to dvd is WAY more important. But if you want a reference disc, and the 5th Element qualifies for me, then the extra 1% or so of subjective improvement that a $5 more expensive superbit version offers is worth it....to me.

Unlike much more expensive improvements (like esoteric interconnects), the superbit discs improvements can be measured and seen, repeatedly, albeit only slightly.

BTW, just because a title is available on superbit doesn't mean it is a reference disc. I have 'Leon; (the professional) on superbit and it's a bit soft and grainy...hard to know if the film was like that or it was the result of the transfer, but being on superbit certainly doesn't improve it, I might of gotten' the regular Leon disc on 2nd thought.

Fleaman

And I would agree.

Superbit is a barely noticeable difference....you would have to really look. The transfer of the film to dvd is WAY more important. But if you want a reference disc, and the 5th Element qualifies for me, then the extra 1% or so of subjective improvement that a $5 more expensive superbit version offers is worth it....to me.

Unlike much more expensive improvements (like esoteric interconnects), the superbit discs improvements can be measured and seen, repeatedly, albeit only slightly.

Fleaman

This pretty much sums up my experience also with the exception of Lawrence of Arabia. Here, the SB copy is visually better than my standard copy. Perhaps the sharpest transfer without EE in my collection is MIB II.

I actually got a superbit and didn't even know I had one, when CircuitCity put SILVERADO on sale recently for $9.99 I picked it up...and lo and behold its a SuperBit title. Not sure of its transfer specs, or how nice the Superbit version compares, but for $9.99 I figured what the heck.

I was going to buy Dracula, but then learned that the superbit is barely an improvement over an already well-done print (the bitrate goes from a 6.5 average to 7.4 I think...not much of a step up), although other films do get a significant jump in overall bitrate, lending to a sharper picture overall.

IF the price difference is 5 bucks, I'd get the superbit. If the price difference was $10, I'd probably not get the superbit, unless of course the transfer on the non-superbit release was sub-standard.

For other good transfers look to the Anchor Bay DIVIMAX releases (Dawn of the Dead, etc..all taken from HD masters) and the Star Wars trilogy release is also of phenominal video quality, with I think really high bitrates throughout (tho I haven't checked personally).

My 'special extended edition' copy of TLOTR-TROTK from New Line has to be the cleanest film transfer in my library. My 'Two Towers' disc is visually inferior by comparison.
I can always tell an exceptional transfer if I can play it at 1080i on my H31 and the image remains sharp rather than fuzzy.

This pretty much sums up my experience also with the exception of Lawrence of Arabia. Here, the SB copy is visually better than my standard copy. Perhaps the sharpest transfer without EE in my collection is MIB II.

Well, I'm glad I have the SB Lawrence. I know that film was restored about 10 years ago....I assume that the all the Lawrence dvd's out there were of the restored film version? If you're std version happens to be before the restoration, then of course it would be inferior...

Fleaman