If one CRT looks so good, I can't imagine what two doing half duty could do. Forget 4x3, think 8x3 using the entire raster area. Who's on first?

There are a couple of current threads discussing blending..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=543086

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=541183

Anyone who would attempt to blend 2 crt's has to be a complete fool..

BTW, Blending was on first but got tossed out of the game and has been replaced by Torus..he's much less maintenance and brighter too..

Anyone who would attempt to blend 2 crt's has to be a complete fool..
I resemble this remark. :p

However, it might be more correct to imply that anyone who thinks that they can easily succeed at blending is a fool.

There's nothing foolish with "attempting". It can be entertaining. It can be educational.

Me to, cause I'm gonna try it again. Andres Quadro card is back from NVidia from being repaired so next week sometime we will give it another shot.

Terry

Is this 'foolish' just with CRTs? Or, foolish all together? I saw some pix once from a trade show and it was seamless. It more than captures my imagination. But, I'm begining to think it'll take more than a Quadro card to pull it off.

CRT will give a much better final result than using the same system with LCD/DLP - wash my mouth out!

Its the Grey not Black that will give chip based issues

If you had told me 2 years ago that I could buy 300Gb Drives for less than £100.00 I would NEVER have believed you.

I could not have bought a 1209s when released.

Technology is fast moving - blended pictures are in use every day world wide and though it is true that most as serious commercial set ups, software or firmware based cards are sure to turn up one day at prices that all can afford.

I have "stiched" many video walls, colour balance etc. so I intend to document and photo how things go, from a hard edge set up to what ever I end up affording........
Spending Hours/Days/weeks is no issue for me, I get involved with mainly one off designs on a weekly basis, without the quest to do new things I would be bored.

Maybe I will fail but along the way I will have tried something new, had a bit of fun, and will accept the "told you so's" of course if I succeed "A large portion of Humble pie" to be served to the non believers.

Currently the odds are 5% in the blenders favour and 95% against

Dude, I applaud your attitude! I too will go ahead with this. Not so much for success as for the fun and education I will have along the way! I'm not even sure I would want to install it if it did work.

Hmm, blended PJ's and a Torus high-gain screen. Possibly for a 180" 2.35 native aspect.

I'm in... can I have some money to start the project?

Hmm, blended PJ's and a Torus high-gain screen. Possibly for a 180" 2.35 native aspect.

I'm in... can I have some money to start the project?

John (MC Maniac) and I considered this. Our fear was that focus would be hard to get as the corners would not be on the same plane. For an example, the right side of the right projector would be closer than the left side of the same projector. We can use corner focus to make a Torus work with one projector, but alas we don't have independent corner focus for a dual CRT Torus. At least my projector doesn't. I know that planetariums and such blend on curves surfaces, but only I believe with special lenses.

Maybe I'm wrong and it can be done. Would be great to know!

Hmmm, now that I think more about it, if the projectors were setup in more of a "v" shape as opposed to parallel, it may just work...

James

John (MC Maniac) and I considered this. Our fear was that focus would be hard to get as the corners would not be on the same plane. For an example, the right side of the right projector would be closer than the left side of the same projector. We can use corner focus to make a Torus work with one projector, but alas we don't have independent corner focus for a dual CRT Torus. At least my projector doesn't. I know that planetariums and such blend on curves surfaces, but only I believe with special lenses.

Maybe I'm wrong and it can be done. Would be great to know!

Hmmm, now that I think more about it, if the projectors were setup in more of a "v" shape as opposed to parallel, it may just work...

James


There's a double whammy here - and both are affecting sharpness right in the prime center area..as James points out there's the corner focus in the center and also you have to converge 2 crts in the blend zone..it's a LOT of work to get the focus looking good in the center..any slightest drifting and the center looks softer than the sides..

MadMrH..

Why not move your post from the G70 stacked thread to here and keep it all together?

What is the final screen size you will have?

Is this 'foolish' just with CRTs? Or, foolish all together? I saw some pix once from a trade show and it was seamless. It more than captures my imagination. But, I'm begining to think it'll take more than a Quadro card to pull it off.

To clarify...I was making a joke - poking fun at myself..

Clarence got it but others might not - just realized some might take this the wrong way..

Good luck with your follow up attempt Terry..

This is a combination of my posts so far to try and keep blending posts together as suggested by MC Maniac (who did not offend me :o). I will edit this post as things change, I will only "bump" this thread for major changes but will edit as small changes happen. PLEASE voice any opinions.

28/6/05 - added SEOS response, added contrast modulation pj thread link.

.....and so it begins.....
Blending options software, firmware & external equipment I have looked into

Nvidia Quadro FX cards, others did not get good results from these cards. I have written to Nvidia but no response. :mad:

Watchout - PC based software - approx cost £4,500 for the software and you need 3 pc's! (too expensive)

Analogue WAY - £16,750 - WAY too expensive - hardware based

Panaram - hardware based - £25,000

Matrox PJ range of cards - offer 3 & 4 head display with OVERLAY only. $2000 or $3000 - PCI card based - NOT ON GENERAL SALE but current models

DScalar - currently being looked at

Baro SEMU - currently being looked at

Barco polaris - software for use with projection within domes etc

SEOS - their answer to my question of do you do anything that would help us?
"Unfortunately, SEOS specialises in complete display system solutions for the flight simulation market and Virtual Reality centres - we don't offer systems compatible with your requirements as these can be purchased at lower cost "off-the-shelf".


Items I have so far

Nvidia Quadro FX4000 card - I know loads think this is a poor starting point BUT the 4000 is the top AGP card with the latest drivers - Installed
I currently have 2 Barco 801s - one data, one half turned into graphics - Both will be graphics when new boards arrive which are also on route (some arrived 7/6/05). The graphics has scheimpflug adjustment, higher resolution.

I am lucky enough to have 2 soft edge & contrast modulated boards for an 801s Arrived 7/6/05. They take the place of input 3 board so I must change back to RGBHV inputs.

I have 3 convergance on green boards (These wont fit the 801s ) - but I intend to end up with a pair of 1208/9 if this actually works - Arrived 7/6/05

I have the base of a RG801 (non s) this has a convergance on green tray which might work.

Anyone got the modified convergance on green boards for a 801s? or Soft edge contrast modulated for later projectors , cash waiting.

If anyone in the UK has a 801s D or G kicking about I could do with it any condition even non working, with toasted tubes cash waiting - currently one of mine is in my cinema room, the other is ready for this setup - I dont want to loose the use of my cinema while I play with these toys......As I think this will take me many weeks to progress.

I will try and post pics as this moves forward
My reasons for trying this are as follows
Use of more vertical tube size so higher resolution and brightness- My Main Reason (see below*)
Slight increase in brightness PJ nearer screen - not a main reason
Better convergance stability PJ nearer screen - not a main reason

* I have a fixed 16:9 screen, widescreen from one PJ uses 75% of vertical tube height - hence the masks you see on loads of tubes
As I calculate 2 PJ with a 25% overlay should use 98.4375% of the vertical tube height - and greatly increase the resolution to a total picture of 2100x1600 and give a 25% increase in brightness per projector, which will mean a % increase in brightness overall not sure how that bit works !

I know there are people out there who dont think this will use any more tube area - I could be wrong - but to date no one has convinced me of that. The combined tube area becomes almost (within 2% inc. overlay) a native 16:9
( :D Boy I is gonna feel silly if I got that wrong :D )

Maybe I will fail :( but along the way I will have tried something new, had a bit of fun, and will accept the "told you so's" of course if I succeed "A large shout of were not worthy" :) will be heard from the non believers.

Currently the odds are 5% in the blenders favour and 95% against

System setups
Others please send me a PM and I will add your info here, so far this is info I found within other posts

Mad Mr H (Andy H) - 2 x BG801s, PC based overlay system Nvidia Quadro FX4000 AGP, PJ based edge blending system SEMU, 8 foot 16:9 fixed screen - getting started.

Clarence - 1 x ECP3101 1 x ECP4101, PC based overlay/blending system Nvidia Quadro FX1000 - UNCONFIRMED first attemp in 2004

Chuchuf (Terry) - unknow details

Prometheusbound - 1 x G70 (crt) 1 x HS51 (dlp i think), PC based Nvidia 6800 using hard edge system - UNCONFIRMED

techman707 (?)- Asus dual head pc based system, Hard edge, UNCOMFIRMED

MC Maniac (John)- PC based Quadro FX3000 UNCONFIRMED

Art Sonneborn (?)- UNCONFIRMED

? (Tim Martin) - Folsom Blend Pro external equipment based - UNCONFIRMED

cocquebert - DScaler - 2 PC + software: 0$ but manual fine tuning (much time ...) 2x1031 + 2Pc see notes here
wwwsi.supelec.fr/cc/download/readmeBlend_AR.htm

Other threads

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=543086 My original thread

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=541183 Stacked G70's

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=553564 Pj's with contrast modulation as standard

My own notes in case anyone wants to follow my progress
Nvidia Quadro FX4000 - Installed in my HTPC running v6.x.x.x drivers, latest is 7.x.x.x . Unable to update drivers without the loss of the Nvidia control system. (3 attempts) Will build a new driver disk and start again. Also picture quality seems to have a more "grainy" apprearance. Colours are however much more vibrant but brightness is lower. possible driver conflict issues so will start with a fresh drive. loss of output from card at times - this may well be motherboard related as I have had this in the past with my ATi board.

Noticed that the Nvidia site has the download for drivers and user manual the wrong way round! Also first line of the .pdf file for work station user guide spells station wrong "Staion" :o. So my faith in Nvidia is weak. They have also removed their on line shop for ONE MONTH while they update it!
(seller of this card on ebay gradogrado NOT TRUSTED - bought as new obviously second hand, rude and abusive on phone)

If one CRT looks so good, I can't imagine what two doing half duty could do. Forget 4x3, think 8x3 using the entire raster area. Who's on first?

There's something new, a couple of people who insisted on trying it were committed to mental institutions after pursuing it for only two weeks.:D I don't know is on third!

I have been considered Mad for a number of years now.

Just waiting for the NHS here to give me a bed.

Till then anything stupid, crazy, impossible im yer man.

There's something new, a couple of people who insisted on trying it were committed to mental institutions after pursuing it for only two weeks.:D I don't know is on third!

Who's on third.

Who's on third.

Everyone knows who's on first and I don't know is on second, but what is on third?

Just a quick note,

My Nvidia FX Quadro 4000 arrived and fitted about a week ago,
Came with 6.x.x.x drivers latest are version 7.x.x.x BUT the latest drivers when loaded delete the Nvidia control panel, so currently running v6 . More time needed here to sort that (3 attempts with same result)

Convergence needed minor changes with new card, picture now has better detail definition than it had before, My old graphics card was an ATi 9600 AGP (I think, will check that and edit another day)

Colours are more vibrant - and I feel more natural tonal colours, not over coloured.

Picture does also seem to be sharper, though I have not gone back to the old card since the change to check.

So as a graphics card, and an expensive one at that, It would appear better than my last few. (ATi and Nvidia cards all about £100-£250 new in last 12 months)

I have now bought one Barco 1208/2 (Waiting delivery), idea is that I remove my 801s and install the 1208/2 and then I have another room to set up the two 801s with blending system as a test.

If this goes well I will be looking for another 1208/2

not a lot to tell but slow progress, at least the money on the quadro was not wasted in my opinion, I can already see better results

What is your final screen size?

8 foot, fixed 16:9 on the final home cinema installation....

I do also have a 24 foot wide external screen (twin 6000 ansi Barcos dlp)

and a 22 foot wide external as well.

do you think this is too small a screen for this project - the HT one?

Why couldn't you set it up like the human eyes. 2 crts on the same plane but each facing slightly left or right accordingly to even the spacing with the screen and have an overlap of about 30 deg off center. you would be able to produce a very life like image that way especially on a torus you could folow the focal plane of the human eye in an arc left to right and top to botom ie use a string at the center and follw the arc it will not change the focal plane to the viewer sitting in the optimal position. Perfect for Simulators or 3d applications. or comprimise to make the screen optimum for the audiance.

I think for now I will just concerntrate on getting an edge blend system to work, after that I will perfect my walking on water party trick and then I might try a torus screen idea. (maybe I should reverse that order!) :rolleyes:

Joking aside I need to keep the installation as simple as possible as there are so many "what if's" at the moment........

8 foot, fixed 16:9 on the final home cinema installation....

I do also have a 24 foot wide external screen (twin 6000 ansi Barcos dlp)

and a 22 foot wide external as well.

do you think this is too small a screen for this project - the HT one?

Yes..a blend only makes sense on a 2.35 screen..here's why..

your screen is 54" x 96" - the left CRT displays 54" x 72" - the right one also 54" x 72"..the combined total is 54" x 144"

A 2.35 movie would need 54" x 127" - you end up with a 17" blend zone..so your screen needs to be 54" x 127" to make the best use of the raster..

Make the screen only 96" w then in order to see the proper ratio of 2.35, the vertical height can only be 41" - you still can't use all the raster (you are using 75% of the vertical height vs 55% on a single CRT)

on 16:9 movies, you could use the full raster height but you have a very wide blend zone - 1/2 the screen in this case

For a 16:9 screen, it makes more sense to stack the 2 CRT's, but stacking has other issues..my big negative would be reduced sharpness..

Since you have the Nvidia card go ahead and try the blend - it should give you some idea of what it will look like and you can decide if it's worth it - to go with a 2.35 screen..

? (Tim Martin) - Folsom Blend Pro external equipment based - UNCONFIRMED



Huh? Unconfirmed about what??? We had "BlendZilla" set up here at E-Tech for weeks on two different occasions, not my fault if a stripped down version ($15K) was not brought to market by Folsom after they announced same, the demo gear was $34K and a bit tricky to dance with; the image quality was extraordinary! I will try to find our prior thread in the Archives, I'll be baaaaack!

Barco bought Folsom about a year ago didn't they?

Three-way blend on 50m x 10m screen:

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/GxL/tech.html

OK, it's not CRT, but it IS separate RGB projection - and it's waaaay coooool!!!

[With acknowledgement to Dokworm for discovering this gem]

"OK, it's not CRT, but it IS separate RGB projection - and it's waaaay coooool!!!"

Where is Sam Hill do you find a screen that big? Will six million pixels be enough on something like that?

An ever so humble 5'x12' would ice my cake. 2 PJs is enough.

DScalar - currently being looked at



DScaler - 2 PC + software: 0$ but manual fine tuning (much time ...)

Me : 2x1031 + 2Pc

http://wwwsi.supelec.fr/cc/download/readmeBlend_AR.htm

MadMrH and Terry,

I'm pulling for you guys on the nVidia approach. I've been following all the threads closely for the last year. I've got a matched pair of Ampro 3600M's (mostly used in simulator market) that I was hoping I could use in a 12' wide rear screen 2.35 setup. That's about as wide as I can can go with the focal length of the short throw lenses.

If you guys can't make it work, then I'm going to abandon the whole thing.

Good luck,
Ray

Hi Ray,

Many thanks for the support.......

Currently I spent the weekend removing my 13 cinema chairs, adding 16 bass shakers and carpet to the raised seating area which I nearly finished, next 2 weekends are very busy and then I should be pushing the testing forward.

Purchase of my third 801s did not complete so that has also slowed me down, I have bought a 1208/2 so might end up with that on the ceiling and then I will have 2 801s's to use for testing.

"I've been following all the threads closely for the last year"
One more reason why I hope this works, there are a growing number of people who would benefit from this idea. My full test system still needs to be setup but I am currently buying in parts, I now have about 90% of the bits I need and the test room is being emptied (slowly!).

watch this space...........

so in the last week I have learnt more about Art's G90 stack.

Now I have never really given this any thought in the past as a "stack" to me is one above the other and not what I intended to do here, turns out Arts's G90's are installed side by side and at a slight angle, this is a possible option for me.

I am now about 10-15 days away from delivery of 9 PJ's (Blame CuRT for 7 of em!)

So I will start work soon on a physical set up test area, work for me at this time of year is very very hectic so this blend idea is very slow

I will also have 4 pairs of matched projectors here so could do a test of them all!
(not why I bought them all!)

So when people say "stacked" what do they really mean?

to me stacked is in a vertical line, same picture on both pj's usually to give additional brightness or 100% redundancy if a commercial application.

Hope to have some blending news in the next 4 weeks........

A lot of people are interested in this even with digital projectors.

Whats funny. I pursued this years ago with PC based cards. I bought the cards ( expensive) that claimed they did the split. Of course when you bought these cards they never worked as promised. They kept saying next generation. This past year several more people on this forum bought PC based cards for this purpose and still none of them work.
It has been about 5 years and not a one has this working yet and when you talk to them on the phone they have a hard time understanding what it is you want to do and they have no clue what their product does or does not do.
When I read these threads started by the few brave posting their frustration with these cards I think to myself I have bought every one of these cards and know they do not work even though the manufacture says they do. Its very frustrating but typical of the PC world.

I've seen harcore blend hardware available on the secondary market (the 'bay) at the bargain basement price of $13,500 :eek:
I don't think blending is for the timid or the average DIYer at this time. I _am_ keeping my eyes open should somebody be scrapping a CAVE :D

Alan,
I think this mirrors what Andrew of TT and Chuchuf found out with Nvidia. They say it is supposed to work, but it didn't seem to work at least for Terry and Andrew. Maybe the card companies are thinking about blending monitors where they don't have to blend edges perfectly.

Ericglo

Okay Guys!

Took me a while to find this, our infamous Blendzilla system, dual 9500LCs on an 111" wide screen here in our shop: in archives.......

http://www.etechvideo.com/superstack/stack_lg.jpg

One of the 9500s is displaying the left 65% of the image but luminance rolls off in the common zone so the other 9500 can display the right 65%; the common area down the center remains seamless:

http://www.etechvideo.com/superstack/1.jpg

http://www.etechvideo.com/superstack/2.jpg

I do not have the pic for this with blend active:

http://www.etechvideo.com/superstack/3.jpg

Blend is switched on for this:

http://www.etechvideo.com/superstack/4.jpg

The pieces demonstrated here two years ago were two existing Folsom Research products cross-connected a bit awkwardly but very capable of taking in DVD or HDTV and spraying it across two 9500LC Marquees in a spectacular fashion. We had pleaded with Folsom Research to take their announced DisplayProHD product, consisting of two custom scalers and two contrast modulation channels, all the way to market, but it was not to be. I ordered a system, to list at $15,000, but it never got built.

http://www.etechvideo.com/superstack/pic1_dec_sm.jpg

Pix on this page towards the bottom as well as pages 2, 3, and 11.....

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=279007&perpage=20&pagenumber=10

Andrew and I gave up on NVidia ever getting this right. In fact what we found was in the latest Quadro drivers they totally removed blending as an option.
My feeling is they did this for a specific customer and that job is done and there hasen't been a large enough mrket for them to continue to persue this any further.
What I find really sad is NVidia with the Quatro card was close.....really close to a perfectly blended picture.

Terry

Guys!

Blendzilla pix and thread located, see above!

Okay Guys!

Took me a while to find this, our infamous Blendzilla system, dual 9500LCs on an 111" wide screen here in our shop: in archives.......



Impressive, I think I get it.... But I'm not sure I understand how this technology works. You have the left half for Russel Crowe on one projector and the right half on the other. There is some region of overlap, and in this (we'll call this the blend zone) there is a drop off which is linear, polynomial, or even exponential in each direction. Then the two halves when superimposed create a larger image where contrast, brightness and color temperature in the blended image is preserved. That much I'm fine with. What confuses the hell out of me about the Folsom blender and the etech blendzilla system is how two halves of Russel Crowe in Gladiator blend to give Bruce Willis in 5th Element. I've heard of the image shifting a little from left to right but this, this is ridiculous!

What confuses the hell out of me about the Folsom blender and the etech blendzilla system is how two halves of Russel Crowe in Gladiator blend to give Bruce Willis in 5th Element. I've heard of the image shifting a little from left to right but this, this is ridiculous!LOL! :p :D :p

Andy.

Raoul

The blend luminance curve is called 'alpha curve' by Folsom; the idea is that the wider the blend (33% shown) zone the harder it is to see any problems, a 5% zone would be harder to conceal. A source (DVD, HDTV) is fed to a pair of special scalers in the ScreenPro device, each scaler permits the image to be stretched and scrolled so there is a left 65% and a right 65%; the BlendPro rolls off the luminance in the blend area and now you have a six-tube CRT! Both 9500s shoot straight ahead so there is not a lot of geometry correction needed, drift is minimal. Nearly the full width and height of each tube face is used, 1280 by 1024 in this case, and the capability is for 1920 by 1024 at the screen!

The blend luminance curve is called 'alpha curve' by Folsom; the idea is that the wider the blend (33% shown) zone the harder it is to see any problems, a 5% zone would be harder to conceal.
It seems that using 3 CRTs would keep the blend zone(s) from being right in the middle of the screen where it would be most noticable also.

--Darin

Raoul

Nearly the full width and height of each tube face is used, 1280 by 1024 in this case, and the capability is for 1920 by 1024 at the screen!

That's it. Wouldn't it be loverly?

It seems that using 3 CRTs would keep the blend zone(s) from being right in the middle of the screen where it would be most noticable also.

Awesome idea! Say, you wanna come help set that up?

That's, what, 9 tubes at maybe 3 hours per tube, plus converging all these things together ouch! ;)

I don't think stacking digital projectors is likely to give top notch results, not ever.

As you totally lack geometry controls, I can't see how you could get perfect stacking out
of digital projectors unless you engineered a system that aligned the light paths of both
projectors, and perfectly. Simply aiming both projectors at the screen would not work
as the keystone would be different on each.

CJ

Awesome idea! Say, you wanna come help set that up?

That's, what, 9 tubes at maybe 3 hours per tube, plus converging all these things together ouch! ;)
You get the CRTs and source, and I'll be there. :)

--Darin

Raoul

The blend luminance curve is called 'alpha curve' by Folsom; the idea is that the wider the blend (33% shown) zone the harder it is to see any problems, a 5% zone would be harder to conceal. A source (DVD, HDTV) is fed to a pair of special scalers in the ScreenPro device, each scaler permits the image to be stretched and scrolled so there is a left 65% and a right 65%; the BlendPro rolls off the luminance in the blend area and now you have a six-tube CRT! Both 9500s shoot straight ahead so there is not a lot of geometry correction needed, drift is minimal. Nearly the full width and height of each tube face is used, 1280 by 1024 in this case, and the capability is for 1920 by 1024 at the screen!

I was just having a little fun Tim. I have been following the Folsom uniit for some years now, would still love to see one in action...

If NVIDIA would open source their drivers we'd have a blender in no time, this is easy on today's hardware.

R-S

Its amazing.
20,000 people go to CEDIA and 150,000 AVS members wait panting for any word on the future and state of the art gear.
We reported on the Silicon Optix BEX20 last year at CEDIA as an exciting blend box on display with 2 pj's.
A pal(nameless)will live in infamy as he declared"they will never get those blend boxes down in price from $15-20K-ever!"
It promply fell to $5k range in 1 YEAR.

Phone,write and Email( SO) if you want even more of this at lower prices.They must think they have a dud since nobody noticed last year.
Many people missed the great Silicon Optix party and huge exhibits of their technology-likewise. :)

Unless black levels are fixed on digital projectors, so that they can do complete black. Blending will NEVER work with them.

If you overlay two areas of grey you get lighter grey and well as the contrast belending issue.

At least with CRT projectors the blend zone has at least one variable ( black level) sorted out.

Unless black levels are fixed on digital projectors, so that they can do complete black. Blending will NEVER work with them.

If you overlay two areas of grey you get lighter grey and well as the contrast belending issue.

At least with CRT projectors the blend zone has at least one variable ( black level) sorted out.
I agree that CRTs have an advantage here, but where there is a will there is often a way and if they knew where the overlap was I think they could compensate. Might be complicated, but I could see it working. Otherwise, your statements could be taken to say that no CRTs setup like William Phelps' G90 (8300:1) or any other CRT that wouldn't hold blackouts because it was calibrated for shadow detail would work for blending. Maybe there is some truth to that, but if it is true then I think it means you would either have to give up shadow detail in a blended system, or have a gamma correction system so that you could get blackouts and still have reasonable shadow detail elsewhere.

--Darin

A little trick you can do for blending digital PJ is to paint the overlapping area on the screen with a darker grey :)

A little trick you can do for blending digital PJ is to paint the overlapping area on the screen with a darker grey :)

Wouldn't that limit your whites?

Wouldn't that limit your whites?If the area were 0.5x gray then with an overlap of two projectors, the whites should be the same there as a 1.0x portion with one projector.

--Darin

Yep. No getting around the fact that blending can not be done OPTIMALLY if the projectors leak light when they are "displaying" black.

Given that all digital projectors have to either obscure or redirect a POWERFUL light source
that is constantly on at full output, I think it will be several years yet before this problem
is licked. It's a tough engineering challenge to control that much light with that much
authority while also achieving the finesse that is essential for good imaging performance.

CJ

So, who's seen the Silicon Optics BEX unit in action? Has there been any evaluation w/ CRTs?

Guys!

I have put in a message with Silicon Optix in hopes of seeing a demo unit here---will advise outcome.

Excellent news! BTW: Sneaky edit tim. Now my 5th element post makes no sense!

Excellent news! BTW: Sneaky edit tim. Now my 5th element post makes no sense!

You've got to start hitting that quote button a lot faster. ;) :D


Art

Unless black levels are fixed on digital projectors, so that they can do complete black. Blending will NEVER work with them.

If you overlay two areas of grey you get lighter grey and well as the contrast belending issue.

At least with CRT projectors the blend zone has at least one variable ( black level) sorted out.

I'm having a little trouble with this one. I've done a good deal of 'photo stitching' with my digital images with my digital camera. The images are seemless. Two, three,four, even five sequenced in a panoramic image and no blending issues.
Regardless of what display I view them on everything looks normal.

Is this technology too far removed from what we are discussing?

stitching is different than blending though. Here you have physical limitations, stitching can just average the two together. If you blend, and blacks are elevated, presumably you have MORE elevated blacks in the blend zone because the gray areas overlap.

I'm assuming they're blending digitals now in simulation and other applications, so I'll bet there's a way around this besides the obvious of raising the black level outside the blend zone to match it, which is not a good compromise image-wise.

Your photo software allows seamless stitching of photographs because the software doesn't stack the brightness of one photo's pixels on top of the brightness of the other photo's pixels.

When dealing with projected images, overlapped images ADD brightness.

CJ

You've got to start hitting that quote button a lot faster. ;) :D


Art

I was being GOOD and not quotiing the pictures. Keeping the load down. ;)

R-S

mmm....... still see the word "Stacked" being used by all you guys over there!
what do you call pj's mounted above each other? or side by side?
Serious question, to me still stacked does not cover both mountings


Anyway.

MANY MANY MANY thanks for the recent pics, still got the kit? wanna sell it?

Pics were a great boost to me, working away from home at the mo so not go to start blending yet, loads of kit waiting for me to play with.

CHUCHUF - which version are you using (Nvidia) without the blending option ???

They are using laser projectors quite a bit now in multi projector environments like planetariums and the like, and the Sony demo at Expo this year had a bunch of laser projectors projecting one very very wide image.

CHUCHUF - which version are you using (Nvidia) without the blending option ???

The Unigraphics Certified Quadro drivers installed on my brand new XP 64bit, Quadro FX4400 equipped workstation do not have a blending option.

Version 71.84. I don't know what the current version is now, but we don't upgrade until the CAD company certifies a new version- much less pain..

Guys!

The initial response from Silicon Optix for a Phoenix demo is........Yes! I will post more details here as they become available; I have requested the gear for second half of October.

Your photo software allows seamless stitching of photographs because the software doesn't stack the brightness of one photo's pixels on top of the brightness of the other photo's pixels.

When dealing with projected images, overlapped images ADD brightness.

CJ

Ok, maybe I'm in left field, but, in photo editing I have taken an image and split it right down the middle creating two images. I printed both images, carefully trimmed them, then butted them side to side to create one image. Only on the closest scrutiny could you detect a tiny hairline down the middle.

Obviously, this is not blending. On the other hand I don't see why with the advanced technology we have today something similar could not be devised with two (digital in this case) PJs (identical models).

Ok, maybe I'm in left field, but, in photo editing I have taken an image and split it right down the middle creating two images. I printed both images, carefully trimmed them, then butted them side to side to create one image. Only on the closest scrutiny could you detect a tiny hairline down the middle.

Obviously, this is not blending. On the other hand I don't see why with the advanced technology we have today something similar could not be devised with two (digital in this case) PJs (identical models).

Manufacturing tolerances of every part in the optical chain (lenses, DLP chip, prisms, LCD panel(s) and bulb output) add up to slight differences in brightness, color fidelity, etc. You'd have to be quite an advenced tweaker to match both PJs exactly.

Besides, nature abhors a straight line, and you are probably very likly to perceive a razors-edge blend (abbutment?) line. I think that this is the most likely reason for dithered blending.

There are 5 BlendPro (http://www.barco.com/corporate/en/Products/product_features.asp?element=2388)s on ebay.

But some other online places (http://www.viscountvideo.com/product_119.htm) say "Please call for greatly discounted pricing"

Guys!

BlendPro is only the contrast modulation half of the system, one still needs a pair of exotic scalers to stretch and scroll the image into blendable segments.

Though Nvidia have dropped the "powerwall" support from the fx1000 quadro cards, other higher up the range still have the option.
I think several people have the fx1000 card from previous threads/info

quote from chuchuf

Andrew and I gave up on NVidia ever getting this right. In fact what we found was in the latest Quadro drivers they totally removed blending as an option.
My feeling is they did this for a specific customer and that job is done and there hasen't been a large enough mrket for them to continue to persue this any further.
What I find really sad is NVidia with the Quatro card was close.....really close to a perfectly blended picture.

I checked the Nvidia site today and the latest drivers are windows version 77.56

strange but the "beta drivers" section shows 77.37 release date july 27 2005

web site maintenance anybody ???



A quote from their site

"Powerwall
NVIDIA's patented single-system powerwall technology allows any application to be projected on a dual-channel powerwall with sophisticated edge blending in order to achieve uniform luminosity. Powerwall works transparently with any application. This feature is supported in the NVIDIA Quadro FX 4400G, 4000, 3400, 3000G, 3000, and 1100 models."

I have the fx4000 agp card and can confirm that the "powerwall" system is still available in the latest drivers


btw,

Thank you for the blendpro info.

I looked them up and they are available for $11,000 to $15,000 :eek:

This will be way out of my budget range so back to searching for other options and testing of the nvidia card.

I have a Quadro FX4400 at work and I can't find the powerwall feature in the drivers.

seek and you shall find......

Hope you are a bill gates user....

turbines to speed (Or fans as Barco call them.....)

Start
Settings
Control Panel
Display (NOT NVIDIA DESKTOP)
settings (top right tab)
Quadro FX4000
white page on left near bottom
"edge blending for people with too much time on their hands!"

If you are looking for the word "powerwall" im afraid Nvidia only seem to use that on the web site

pictures are from my mobile phone sorry if poor.

Guys!

Silicon Optix did not step up to the plate after several of my requests to test their blend gear But...... we hope to have another product in test mode here by December 15th. This gear has the specs and the potential to nicely replace the DisplayPro HD system that Folsom was unable to move forward with. More news as it unfolds!

Tim PM me with details please .

My project is still moving forward.........

On the tweaking boards stage and upgrades at the mo........

will dig out some pictures....

Cheers,

Three Hours and fifteen minutes! I was wondering how long it would take before you saw Tim's post.:)

Ericglo

"The Boys are BLACK in town again........."

Forgive my delayed reaction to the post...... ;)

On UK time working nights.........I will try and be on the ball in future...... :p




YES that is my new living room and I cant fit the new table in there for Christmas lunch....

Though the Selecos with a cloth over them sitting on 1208 chassis is my best offer to the family to date!




Note to family : no honestly these are still the 801s projectors I started with I have not bought any more though they do look like DV1208s/E's dont they! No the speakers were always that big I've not changed them......about that holiday dear.........AND YES youre right dear it is cold sleeping in the shed!




http://tinypic.com/futbbk.jpg
http://tinypic.com/futbfm.jpg
http://tinypic.com/futbgn.jpg

PS Many Many Many thanks to the 2 wonderful AVS members who sold me BRAND NEW P16 tubes for this project.......

One is now the proud owner of his new 1208s/2 - Barco rules.......

And the other still gloating on his G90.....




so 6 pure whites to go in..........




Im trying to add LC hardware to them but at the mo not easy to find.........with coloured C's of course....

Hope you can do it but many have tried ! At least you have the BEST of tubes !

Alright Guys!

We need some excitement here and I hope to bring it; we are testing a new blend system next week here at E-Tech, and I am majorly excited. The system supports eight inputs including digital, and features built-in soft edge blending out to two RGB or DVI or HD-SDI displays. We set up Monday after lunch; and a select handful of impartial observers (mostly my drinking buddies) are invited to watch. Signals include HiDef from DirecTV and terrestrial local channels, an HTPC maybe, and a DVD player yet to be selected. Two Marquee 9500LCs. 106" screen width. More, soon, Tim


Oh, this is from last time, we are migrating to the living room for next week!

http://www.etechvideo.com/superstack/stack_lg.jpg

Alright Guys!

We need some excitement here and I hope to bring it; we are testing a new blend system next week here at E-Tech, and I am majorly excited. The system supports eight inputs including digital, and features built-in soft edge blending out to two RGB or DVI or HD-SDI displays. We set up Monday after lunch; and a select handful of impartial observers (mostly my drinking buddies) are invited to watch. Signals include HiDef from DirecTV and terrestrial local channels, an HTPC maybe, and a DVD player yet to be selected. Two Marquee 9500LCs. 106" screen width. More, soon, Tim


Oh, this is from last time, we are migrating to the living room for next week!

http://www.etechvideo.com/superstack/stack_lg.jpg

COOL! After the Folsom blender didn't work out as the company wouldn't produce the product, Tim had the "Folsom Prison Blues". But now Tim's is doing the "Walk the Line" and found another better vender. COOL!!

What price bracket are we talking?

Say Dok

Preliminary indications put the processor around $17K, and two competent projectors to each handle 1280 x 1080p; lesser resolutions can be selected for the output where necessary and dialed up later for better projectors. This is essentially the processor that Folsom elected not to build; we were anticipating $15K for that two years ago. An eight input switcher/transcoder with two exotic scalers and contrast modulation for the blend rolloff, it does cost some money to do all that well.

Ahh, get back to me when you can do it with a dual head video card :)

I'm only about 15K short then...

I wonder if any of these Gamma adjustment circuits that are floating around would be any help with this?

Seems to me that the issue is the bias and gain may not be identical between either of the projectors. That course that can be adjusted in the PJ menu. If the blend area has a contrast modulation problem. That is akin to the Gamma being misadjusted in the blend.

By adjusting the gamma on one machine with one of those Gamma circuits that TSE has made, seems to me you could adjust the problem out.

Alternatively

The actual Nvidia driver has point adjustment of gamma for each monitor. Has anyone actually fiddled with this and tried to adjust the whole left side gamma to match the right?

Using a Spider two or better you could set the tracking in the video card from 30IRE up to 100IRE without a problem. By testing each side at different intensities and matching the tracking up between the two PJ's using the video card driver you should be able to get it right.

If the brightness, contrast AND gamma in the blend is the same. What appears elsewhere outside the blend should be perfect. This is not just a blend problem. The whole picture on one side or the other doesnt track in every one of these attempts I have seen.

I cant remember anyone actually doing this. They have just dumped it up there and said "nah the blend doesnt work"

No one to my knowledge has worked on the Gamma of the Nvida card and tried to make both projectors track from 10 IRE to 100IRE.


Why havent I ever tried this? I never managed to get a working FX1000 !! so I could never really attempt to set this up as I would like.

.........4hrs ish later!

HI ya,

OK the FX1000 has had the "powerwall" side of it dropped by Nvidia in the newest drivers....

It appears that it did not work right.

BUT

my fx4000 still has this and about a week ago I checkd this out for the first time.

I will post some pics as I need a bit of help working it all out......

Watch this space as I know Tim is lurking with his new toys and I am tomorrow in a meeting to try and push my setup forward a bit more........I just dont have the time myself, though I have got loads of kit now im just not getting enough time to set this up so I have decided to enlist some help........some serious help.

People have recently been commenting on how quick I respond to posts in this thread , just recently and only because I have been paper pushing I have noticed things within 5 hours...not bad considering the time dif around the world.....

BUT today something REALLY REALLY WIERD happened........

I actually feel like there is about to be a new post with serious info very soon......

Like very soon,

SO Ericglo it would appear that my ESP might be switched on..........do you feel the force?


tick tock tick tock.......lets see.......

What a teaser!

Yeah baby Yeah...... :D :D :D



more hype than an xbox 360......but this IS in stock.......

Guys!

No joke, we are cooking something special, more news by Tuesday night.......

http://img.shopping.com/cctool/PrdImg/images/pr/177X150/00/00/01/e2/37/123447.JPG

The force is stong.........

Teaser!

Tim's Blending system from analogue way can be found here......

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=616364

Now.....

Back to the cheap side of life.

I just noticed that Nvidia have released a new driver set.

Release 80 , 18 November 2005, version 81.67.

In looking through the old build versions it NOW shows that the "powerwall" edge blending from release 50 onwards ONLY works with Quadro fx3000 cards and above.

I know a number of people here at AVS have the fx1000 card.



It is as usual very vague on the upgrades however these 2 caught my eye

1. Improved performance under dual view - Dual view is used when blending

2. Improved performance with multiple overlapping windows - Im not 100% sure what this means but could it mean an improvement in the blend zone?




Gonna try and update my test machine later today - fingers crossed as this usually involves days to get a stable system back.............

System back up and running........

I also think in prior threads I may have mentioned that this is able to only blend on one side....

Not true.......the system today allowed me to have a blend on all 4 side of the picture......

Im guessing last time I did not do it right......

Anyway some screen shots with just ONE pj at the moment.....

http://tinypic.com/ipqtg1.jpg
Trial Blend image - note the start of the blend area has vertical line, this can be removed with correct stting but I am just learning this!

http://tinypic.com/ipqv89.jpg
Second showing different position of blend start - can be moved within settings

http://tinypic.com/ipqvkz.jpg
Blend control/setup options

Settings available as follows
ROLL OFF (H&V)
Specifies roll-off for the gradient used to introduce the Horizontal Luma value along blended horizontal display edges.
Range: 0 to 255 pixels. Using a large roll-off helps to reduce visible seams along display edges and simplifies display alignment, but may sacrifice some image quality.
LUMA (H&V)
Specifies the target Luma value for blended horizontal display edges.
Range: 0 to 255 pixels. The larger the number you specify, the brighter the image appears at blended edges.
PIXELS
Specifies the number of pixels from the horizontal display edges to use in projected edge blending.

http://tinypic.com/ipqwdw.jpg
Gamma curve set up - just me playing with the setting but as you might be able to see a large option there for change

http://tinypic.com/ipqy2r.jpg
This area gives detailed control of the refresh rate and other things and again not played with this yet but at a glance this looks like it give some of the options found in powerstrip?

Any views, opinions, questions? or does anone else have this card? Its an Nvidia Quadro FX 4000 AGP card, the 4400&4500 are pci express card versions or higher....


Just for the record these pictures are on an 8foot wide 16:9 fixed screen using a Barco Data 801s

the actual nvidia menu appears about 6 foot wide on the screen if of any use to anyone.....

A lot of people are interested in this even with digital projectors.

Whats funny. I pursued this years ago with PC based cards. I bought the cards ( expensive) that claimed they did the split. Of course when you bought these cards they never worked as promised. They kept saying next generation. This past year several more people on this forum bought PC based cards for this purpose and still none of them work.
It has been about 5 years and not a one has this working yet and when you talk to them on the phone they have a hard time understanding what it is you want to do and they have no clue what their product does or does not do.
When I read these threads started by the few brave posting their frustration with these cards I think to myself I have bought every one of these cards and know they do not work even though the manufacture says they do. Its very frustrating but typical of the PC world.

I can appreciate the frustration that Alan has endured; however, the hardware requirements for this system would tax the limits of several PCs. Let's review just the hardware needed. A) Switch and perhaps transcode 3 or 4 or 5 component or RGBHV or other sources. B) Feed those signals to Two exotic scalers that can stretch, scroll position and crop the source up to 33% of the image width, then upconvert to any of several desired output resolutions such as 1280 x 1080p, and also roll off luminance controllably so the right half of the left segment and the left half of the right segment merge invisibly into each other. The BlendZilla processor does all this and more, and will be available for demos by appointment at E-Tech by late January.

And then today I find this little beauty............

http://www.siliconoptix.com/contentEngine/contentDocuments/Image_AnyPlace_Product_Brief_Sept_2004.pdf

ALL I am saying here is that it is $5500.00 per unit and that 2 are required.

At first glance it is NOT as advanced the DiVentix processor from Analogue Way Inc. which does 1080p.

This silicon optix appears to go to 720p or 1080i, I am a little confused from the info is to what its highest output is..........My head hurts today!

Well Andy

We traded e.mails with the SilOptix folks three months ago; they said then that they were amenable to a demo here and then......they just disappeared; two factory guys and a rep from Tucson just stopped answering, not sure what that means.

You think Aliens :D

You think Aliens :D

Spaceships or the Four-DVD boxed set? :D

Spaceships.......the other was just a film.

Guys!

Santa was exceptionally kind this year, my new BlendZilla Processor is here and functioning! As is my new Dish 811 HD tuner, and my HTPC. A new Stewart screen is due here mid-January but we will be doing some demos by appointment as soon as next week; those interested in seeing this exceptional 107"-wide edge-blended system need to e.mail me for directions and times; we may have the privelege of some additional screen shots tomorrow if Alan Gouger hasn't OD'd on turkey........:D

tim,
I have to confess that I have been disappointed with the hype surrounding the Realta. It is not the potential performance of the chip, but the people running the business. It doesn't surprise me that they just went silent. My guess is that they encountered a problem and decided that silence was better than telling you of a problem. They may come back in a couple of months and say they are ready now. HQV was promoting the Realta in Scalers, but seemed to slow down with his posts once delays started to creep in. I am still hopeful about the chip, but disappointed in the company.

Ericglo

And then today I find this little beauty............

http://www.siliconoptix.com/contentEngine/contentDocuments/Image_AnyPlace_Product_Brief_Sept_2004.pdf

ALL I am saying here is that it is $5500.00 per unit and that 2 are required.

At first glance it is NOT as advanced the DiVentix processor from Analogue Way Inc. which does 1080p.

This silicon optix appears to go to 720p or 1080i, I am a little confused from the info is to what its highest output is..........My head hurts today!

I have one of these on the way. I will have to check out the blending ability of it. That feature of this scaler was not why I bought it but, it might be fun to try out. Another function of this scaler, with it's optional ewarp software, can digitally correct the geometry on curved and spherical screens. It's geometry correction allows for up to 40% off axis projector mounting. I would think this would be helpfull in a side by side stack like Art's. It would cut the amount of keystone correction the PJ would have to do. When I get time, I'll look into it.

Chip

I'd like to add that I don't feel this is a viable option for the true videophile. It's fine for simulation stuff but to many variables for it to provide a perfect blend 100% of the time. Uneven tube/bulb wear. Uneven chassis wear. Just stop and think about what your expecting it to do, all the while providing an image suitable for a videophile. I think you stand a better chance of your dog digging up the Holy Grail in your back yard ;)

Chip

Guys!

Chip has some concerns, let me dispell those for the crowd. I had the system back up in a few hours yeaterday having never laid hands on the controls before! The left projector has 4000 hour tubes, the right projector has new.

Our demo capability is back on line with the arrival Saturday of our own DiVentix processor. A new Stewart Luxus Deluxe screen is set to arrive mid-January; new tubes are indicated for our left side projector to match it to the right one.Setup went well with the fairly intuitive mouse-click setup software and RS232 connection by serial cable.

Bears over Packers!

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/DSC03673.jpg

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/DSC03667.jpg

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/DSC03672.jpg

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/DSC03662.jpg

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/DSC03666.jpg

We clearly propose this for those contemplating a double stack/side stack for a larger room with screen width over 105" up to maybe 135" in a darkenable room. The ability to switch eight inputs is not found on many scalers, and soft-edge blending is not found anywhere else today in this price range. Those wishing to see this system in Phoenix need to e.mail me for details.

I suppose I should have elaborated a bit more about my concern over stability over the long term not short. You just set it up. Tell me, in your opinion, how well this image will stand up in the hands of a end user (videophile), non tweaker environment. Let's say it will be used for two or three movies a day for three months. I can go that long without the need to tweak and I'm picky. ;)

Chip

My screen is only 8 foot wide, 16:9 fixed format.......

You think too small?

105-135 thats 8.75 to 11.25 feet - unusual screen sizes!

STEFUEL - which version do you have on route? if you dont want the edge blending then why did you buy the BEX cersion - thats the only one with it?

New or Secondhand?

sorry for all the questions.....

Are we there yet !!!

Andy

96" wide is the smallest you would want to go for the expense involved. Chip, this application with projectors firing straight ahead and a 30% overlap is less drift-prone than superiposing with side-stack, which slams most geometry and convergence settings to their limits. Full use of all the phosphor, throw ratio of 0.90 to .95 for the largest image in a smaller footprint. Hop a flight and visit, if you see it you will want it!!!!!

My screen is only 8 foot wide, 16:9 fixed format.......

You think too small?

105-135 thats 8.75 to 11.25 feet - unusual screen sizes!

STEFUEL - which version do you have on route? if you dont want the edge blending then why did you buy the BEX cersion - thats the only one with it?

New or Secondhand?

sorry for all the questions.....

Are we there yet !!!

Mad,
Impulse fleabay buy. I was bouncing around fleabay and stumbled accross it. I only bid on it cause I'd never even seen one before. There was only one other bidder who was not upping the bid, so I got it for a really rediculously low price :p

Chip

Can the DiVentix really accept 1080p @ 60 Hz? AFAIK, it outputs 1080p @ 60, but input is limited to 1080p @ 30.

BR - Andres

Hop a flight and visit, if you see it you will want it!!!!!

Who wouldn't?

Tim,
Has Art seen this yet? You make my eyeballs bigger than my wallet.

Clarence...you taking notes?

Of all the 'ideas' on HT I like this one best. But the $17k I read on the other thread might even stop Art in his tracks. 'Blendzilla'(see tim's thread)
What we need is "Stitchzilla". We do it in panoramic photostitch applications all the time.
Where there's a will...and some expert engineering.

DScaler - 2 PC + software: 0$ but manual fine tuning (much time ...)

Me : 2x1031 + 2Pc

http://wwwsi.supelec.fr/cc/download/readmeBlend_AR.htm


hello

Has anyone tried this (...beside the author?)
I love tweaking with pj's and computers...
my question is will it work properly without any lines and such in the middle of the screen?

I m thinking of blending 2 marquees on a 10f wide (diag) 1.85:1 AR screen....or maybe another AR.

Anyone else intersted in this so that maybe we can "pull" our efforts together....(preferebly someone from LA area)

Thanks again

Martin

hello

Has anyone tried this (...beside the author?)
I love tweaking with pj's and computers...
my question is will it work properly without any lines and such in the middle of the screen?

I m thinking of blending 2 marquees on a 10f wide (diag) 1.85:1 AR screen....or maybe another AR.

Anyone else intersted in this so that maybe we can "pull" our efforts together....(preferebly someone from LA area)

Thanks again

Martin


I tried this..

no issues with lines in the middle

end result was I could get the image matching in any 2 areas - Left/midddle, right/middle and left/right but never all 3..

There were 1,800 possible combinations and after trying a few 100, gave up

I used a dual SDI modded DVD player as it would be difficult have both PC players in perfect sync..

hello john

sounds like a crapshoot...
I was also concerned (after thinking and sleeping on it) regarding the pc sync issue...

I do have a couple of denon 1910's (non sdi modded)
i figured i ll give it a try...before i do that i will need to order one more moome card for the other marquee though!

Thanks again for the input/experiances

Martin

hello john

sounds like a crapshoot...
I was also concerned (after thinking and sleeping on it) regarding the pc sync issue...

I do have a couple of denon 1910's (non sdi modded)
i figured i ll give it a try...before i do that i will need to order one more moome card for the other marquee though!

Thanks again for the input/experiances

Martin

It was a frustrating experiment - there were other issues such as problematic PC's and getting the proper aspect ratios to stick

all I can say is GOOD LUCK!

:)

:D :D :D








Testing, testing, one two, one two......

























Is this thing working..........





























One, Two, Three, Four..........

























http://i3.tinypic.com/ws1oxj.jpg






:D :D :D

We have a player !

More details here.......

He's gonna do it ! (http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335857)

3 short pages then back here...........

So MadMrH

How are you progressing?

I'm thinking of going the same route with my two Sony 1271
and a 6800 LE graphics card modded to a Quadro...

Can't wait for your results...

Henrik

Im away this weekend BUT intend to do some more work each night next week (I hope)

I need to go back to each PJ and actually set each one up correctly - currently they were "thrown" on the test rig and NO set up was done.......

I rushed into trying to see what could be done quickly.

"Boy with a new toy" style.

Now I need to sort some neg sync issues out and then carry on a bit more.......

ALSO work out the best overall resolution

Single PJ often used at A1440x960 , B1920x1080

SO double setup should be A2880x960 , b3840x1080

@ 72,75 Hz

(Shout if anyone knows better!)

aim for 20% overlap so

each PJ is doing A1728x960, B 2304x1080

So overlap area will be A288,B384 pixels

blend area around A288,B384 pixels

ALSO 8 foot (96 inches) wide screen each PJ will also produce a picture 57.6 inches wide, 4foot 9.6inches.

This might run into minimum PJ size issues.........

ALSO

Currently my setup cross hatch is not good enough for the higher resolutions

My calculations currently mean I have the test rig too far away from the screen, originally I thought each PJ would project a 6 foot wide image so upto 50% blend area could have been used.......

you should run the individual PJs at lower resolutions:

something like 1280x1080p for each of them

This would allow for a 320 pixel wide blend zone (approx. 16 percent of the total width).

The combined resolution of both PJs would thus be 2560x1080p, without stressing the individual PJs at all (due to 1280x1080).

These are 8 and 9 inch Barco's

Sweet spot at 1440x960

the 960 limit is due to 16:9 mode and so a 60% use of the tube area....

In blend mode they use a 4:3 ratio and so full height of the tube........

I need to give more thought to the ratio of films to be shown.

MOST are 2.35:1 , I have a fixed 16:9 screen, I need to find out if most hi def material fills a 16:9 screen........

I will decide in the next few days in the final resolution I will test with

BUT any ideas/options I am happy to consider.......

Thank you.

there will most likely be a fair deal of 16:9 open matte movie releases, plus all concerts and TV shows are 16:9

When I started thinking seriously about edge blending, I looked at all the DVDs that we tend to watch, and found that the vast majority were in 2.35 aspect ratio. If you are viewing a 2.35 film on any sort of 16:9 display, you are only using about 3/4 of the display height/area, just as 16:9 uses 3/4 of a 4:3 display. In most cases there is nothing you can do about this, but edge blending gives us a unique opportunity to configure the display for 2.35, but without losing any advantage with 16:9.

Indeed, I believe that the real advantage of blending comes with 2.35, and in many ways blending is at a disadvantage with a 16:9 configuration. Why? It's because of the considerable overlap when using two 4:3 PJs to cover a 16:9 screen. Try drawing a 16:9 rectangle on a piece of graph paper, then overlay two 4:3 rectangles. The overlap area is 1/2 of the 16:9 area, and 2/3 of each 4:3 area. It's reasonable to consider that the overlap area represents 50% utilisation of the tube area, so 1/3 of the tube area is effectively going to waste. So there tube area is just 2/3 utilised when a blended pair shows 16:9 video.

Compare that with a 4:3 PJ showing a 16:9 film, and that will have 3/4 tube utilisation. Put another way, a stacked pair is effectively using 1/8 more tube area than a blended pair.

Step it up to 2.35 AR video, and both those utilisations go down by about a quarter, with the blended pair using barely half it's tube area. Configure the blend pair to 2.35, though, and the utilisation goes up to 88%, all the tube height is used again, and you get good horizontal scanning efficiency because the overlap area is a reasonable size.

I think those are compelling reasons for using a 2.35 AR configuration for edge-blending.

Nick

Say Nick

I have fudged slightly for my system and elected a 1.92 aspect screen, it is 107" wide, and phosphor usage in that layout looks like this for 1.78 stuff:

http://i1.tinypic.com/xcvyvb.jpg

A dedicated 2.35 setup is around 16:7 or 16:6.8 and should use virtually the entire tube face, a smaller overlap region in the seven to ten percent range should do it, mine is twenty percent at this time. With a resulting big Grin :D on the user's face!

Is it possible to do edge blending by purely mechanical means? What I mean is once you work out your blend area, putting a piece of plastic/glass over the tube face with a gradient embedded in it and have the two projectors on rails so you can move them left to right.

Actually now that I've typed that it sounds nuts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cocquebert
DScaler - 2 PC + software: 0$ but manual fine tuning (much time ...)

Me : 2x1031 + 2Pc

http://wwwsi.supelec.fr/cc/download/readmeBlend_AR.htm




hello

Has anyone tried this (...beside the author?)
I love tweaking with pj's and computers...
my question is will it work properly without any lines and such in the middle of the screen?

I m thinking of blending 2 marquees on a 10f wide (diag) 1.85:1 AR screen....or maybe another AR.

Anyone else intersted in this so that maybe we can "pull" our efforts together....(preferebly someone from LA area)

Thanks again

Martin


Hi Martin,

I was the author of this blending way ...

If you have any question, send me a mail at cedric.cocquebert@supelec.fr.

In few words :

two PC with DScaler on each.
+ two plug-in (I can send new version to you)
+ much time to tune system (because each CRT have not the same color & gamma scheme)

And voilà ...

Is it possible to do edge blending by purely mechanical means? What I mean is once you work out your blend area, putting a piece of plastic/glass over the tube face with a gradient embedded in it and have the two projectors on rails so you can move them left to right.

Actually now that I've typed that it sounds nuts.

OK, If you are on a big hire job and forgot the blending kit AND have digital SINGLE lens projectors then You can get it to work, in fact you must get it to work cos your job depend on it for not packing the van correctly :D

So not so silly.

Actually the best method is to hatd edge blend if you are in trouble....I have done that on many installations........

BUT soft edge is by far the correct route to go.

Hello cocquebert

...and thanks for the link/info, I m gonna read it in more details and give it a try (I already have the pj's)

Thanks for the software/plugins for dscaler...

Martin

you need to genlock the two PCs to get good results. This will SIGNIFICATLY add to the cost :)

How do these new dual core CPUs work? Could each core be assigned to output one half of the image?

Hi Martin,
I was the author of this blending way ...
If you have any question, send me a mail at cedric.cocquebert@supelec.fr.
In few words :
two PC with DScaler on each.
+ two plug-in (I can send new version to you)
+ much time to tune system (because each CRT have not the same color & gamma scheme)
And voilà ...Hi cocquebert,

This is very interesting.
Do you actually have this running ?
What do you use as your source?
Can you use an external source?

Cheers, Nick

Hi Nick


Do you actually have this running ?


Yes, an article about this (in french ...)
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/installations/CCS/ccs63-2/index.php

some screenshots
http://wwwsi.supelec.fr/cc/download/images/



What do you use as your source?


DVD player & TV with S-video output to capture card (based on CX23881)


Can you use an external source?


Yes I do, It's possible to use Y/C, RGB, SDI, but the only restriction is SD (no HD, because DScaler isn't HD compliant).



kschmit2

you need to genlock the two PCs to get good results


It's better, but not necessary, just adjust the same freq of graphics card and use the same CPU (above 2ghz) to have no drop frame in DScaler.

Three little words: watch this space!

Nick

I'm looking
:eek: :eek: :eek: :D

Henrik

I have both of my crts lines up and installed the dscaler plugins in both my p4 systems...they are almost identical with the exception of video cards!

I m waiting for another video card (I figured they should both be the same! it will make things easier!)

Once I get it up and running with my crt's I will post some pics...(should be an interesting experiment!)

Too bad it is only SD...oh well can't have everything!

I can't wait!!!

Martin

If you have a video card that will span video across both monitors (Nvidia?) then Azzad wrote an AVIsynth script (and bitmap mask) which may work for DVD, and only needs one PC.

PM me if you want the bitmap.

Three little words: watch this space!

Nick

I'm still watching. Blending...there has to be an affordable way.

Blend testing has stopped here for the last couple of weeks.......

Several family issues..........

Should be back testing in about a week..........

Hello all,

Enclosed is a picture of the service menu from my October, 1995 Electrohome Marquee 8110. If you'll notice, option nine opens a "soft edge" option - if the hardware is installed. Is anyone familiar with this hardware? This option is not present in either of my 8000's nor is it available in my other 8110, all of which are of a similar vintage. I've never read anything about an Electrohome "soft edge" board, so my guess is that these were and are rare, and probably of little use to the blending project. However, I thought it might be of interest.

If anyone has any questions about the chassis or boards themselves, I'd be happy to answer them as best I can. As a data point, though, the software version of the projector is 3.1.

Thanks,
Slarti

(source)
DVD player & TV with S-video output to capture card (based on CX23881)

(external source)
Yes I do, It's possible to use Y/C, RGB, SDI, but the only restriction is SD (no HD, because DScaler isn't HD compliant).


Doesn't your external source have to be taken to s-video? What about losing some color fidelity by using s-video and introducing noise as a result of using analog capture cards? Perhaps just trade-offs to having a giant image?

Doesn't your external source have to be taken to s-video? What about losing some color fidelity by using s-video and introducing noise as a result of using analog capture cards? Perhaps just trade-offs to having a giant image?

Yes, S-video & analog capture cards introduce noise (not same noise in the left & right PC with same capture card ...). SDI solution is surely better, but this blending architecture is not my goal (2 PC, no HD ...)
I'm working about a VLC plug-in (www.videolan.org) to add overlapping feature at their "wall" plug-in and use (&modify) OpenGL output to blend overlaped area ...

Just to help out, my searching on the web;

Amiravis - seems to be a PC based solution, with edge blending function in their apparently expansive 3D software package (medical, chemistry etc. imaging). I'm not sure how we could utilise just the edge blending part for our use.
http://www.amiravis.com/usersguide40/hxtracking/AmiraVR-superwide.html

OpenGL - came across this application a few times (I'm no expert so can't tell you what it is, looks like some kind of 3D software). Edge blending seems to be programmable, and a few people seem to have done it in Open GL, e.g.
http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/~pbourke/colour/edgeblend/

Cyziz - I chased up Cyviz who have hardware solution for edge blending (scalable so can run many screens blended together, so you could have as many CRTs as you'd like!). But the price is expensive, around US$8000 ex-Norway for one of their xed units, and they have to be bought through a distributor so who knows how much that would end up being.
www.cyviz.com


I'm keen to see the PC progress continue, as it muct be able to be done. I can see Tim's blendzilla doing a great job, but I don't need 3-5 switcher and no scaling (HTPC), and given what can be done with HTPCs the PC solution seems doable.

Cheers,

Steve

Thanks for the input, Steve.
The second article is invaluable. I especially liked this part:

"A major limiting factor to how well the blending can be made invisible is the degree to which the projector can create black. Typically CRT projectors have total black however these are undesirable for other reasons (bulk, calibration, low light levels). LCD projectors typically have very poor black levels. DLP projectors are better (DLP was used for these tests). The key indicator published by the manufacturer regarding black level is the contrast, at the time of writing there are a number of projectors rated around the 1500:1 and 2000:1. Some projectors are rated at 3000:1 or even 3500:1. Generally there is a tradeoff between projector brightness and contrast, most customers want bright projectors and this comes at the cost of poorer black levels."

There's still hope!

I have emailed the author of "Edge Blending Using Commodity Projectors" to see what info I can get. Of particular note is his comment "driven by...different graphics pipe on the same computer", and as you pointed out the benefit of using a CRT projector in edge blending. It looks like he achieved perfect edge blending from the pics. :)

Does anyone know anything about OpenGL, ie. how can the functions be implemented. I assume this is in software somewhere, but what type of program (media player e.g. Theatertek, ffdshow, or part of the vide driver e.g. NVidia).

Cheers, Steve

I spoke to him a while ago, he didn't seem all that interested, and told me he didn't have the expertise on the PC to take it further to develop a DVD player etc. Doesn't hurt to talk to him again, but we probably should be specific as to what exactly we would like from him.

As for openGL, it would most likely mean creating a simple flat plane with geometry and then mapping the video image onto the plane. You could then use alpha channel (transparency) information to apply the blend. But that would be a custom app, which would mean writing your own DVD player etc.

Ideally it would have to happen at the driver level of the graphics card or as a plugin for a popular system like DScaler/AviSynth etc.

There already is a simple script Azzad wrote for DVD playback using AVI synth - someone was playing with it lately without success.

The issue is getting video playback spanning two monitors, it maxes out the CPU, all it's own.

It was me who tried out the avisynth script.
With regular dvd resolution and ZP rederless and ffdshow avisynth call for the script and nothing else in ffdshow it maxed out to 100% cpu with no stutter.
So playing highdef material is out of the question.
This was done on a Asus P4PE MB with P4 northwood (the last series before HT) on 3.2GHz 512MB ram and 9800Pro.
When I come home from the hollydays in 2 weeks I begin building a new HTPC with the D920 processor from intel, OC'ed to 4.2GHz and a 6800 PCI-e softmodded to quadro.
The projectors will be 2 Sony 1271 I have laying around.
Will give info on the progression when the time comes.

Henrik

I have heard back from Paul Bourke, which I'll get to later.

Reading back through the thread it doesn't look like anyone has fully tested any of the newer NVidia Quadro, MadMrH was working on it and has some interested half screens with roll-off, no updates for a few weeks. I can't find the good post where someone linked the NVidia Quadro edge blending instructions (Jan 2006) for FX4500, 4400, 3450, 3400 (from memory), where the bright line issue is mentioned.
-> Anyone care to elaborate on results with these latest cards, we may have thrown the baby out with the bathwater from comments re: FX1000 work done some time ago (with the bright line, and NVidia withdrawing support).

Back to the response from Paul Bourke. It sounds to me that we can use OpenGL in any dual view video card.
-> Can anyone explain how this would be done, I don't have a clue about OpenGL.

The reponse from Paul Bourke below, with my original email after the '>'

"> I read with interest your article "Edge Blending with Commodity
> Projectors", this is of great personal interest as I'm trying to help
> a group of CRT projector enthusiasts edge blend with 2 projectors. The
> result you achieved looks perfect,

Within the bounds of DLP projectors it was about as good as it can get. The limit to the quality with DLP is the degree (or lack) of black that can be achieved. The advanatge with CRT is extremely good black, the disadvantage is the careful calibration required.

> The plan would be to do this within a single PC, perhaps using the
> dual-view feature that comes with some video cards

There is no problem with that, there are any number of affordable cards that have dual outputs. Even without that you can just get a Matrox dualhead2go card that will give you two displays from a single display output card, I use this on Mac powrbook laptops to get 2 displays, or two of them to get 4 displays from a dual display card.
ps: there is now also now a triplehead2go.

> The trick as you have illustrated is setting up the overlap region.
> Would you be able to help with some advice to a layman? How do you
> implement the OpenGL functions (in a specific software?). Sorry I
> don't have any clue on OpenGL,

That is obviously a little tricky since you will need to create or modify OpenGL code. Here's the basic idea and function calls ... assuming you have an OpenGL manual.

Your OpenGL application needs to use glFrustum(), this allows asymmetric view frustums to be set up. By this I mean the rectangular cone from the camera can be extended to the right for the left view and to the left for the right view.

You draw your geometry twice, once for the left display and once for the right display, use glViewport() to control this.

You then draw a polygon that is the full height of the display and the width of the overlap, this polygon has the blend mask applied as a texture ... actually it can just be a 1 dimensional texture. This is drawn twice, once for the left then for the right. Use the blend function
glBlendFunc(GL_DST_COLOR,GL_ZERO);

Swap the buffers, I use glut so its
glutSwapBuffers();

I think that is all.
--
P a u l B o u r k e

Great input, see thi sthread I just started http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=692824

This is the kind of info to give to a coder. I also spoke with Paul as well, pity we can't pay him to do the code? Syd, you have a good dialog going with him, do you think you could bounce the idea off him? I am sure he has some studenst that might be up for some beer money.

I think $500 is a reasonble sum for a copy of software that would allow a blend using regular Video cards and compatible with Mainstream software PDVD, TT etc. Even if it only works in overlay, PDVD etc will soon support hd dvd & BD most likely in Overlay mode as well.

That is a tidy way to do it - I hadn't looked at glBlendFunc() before, a full description of the options is here. http://www.mevis.de/opengl/glBlendFunc.html
http://www.mevis.de/opengl/glFrustum.html

If using OPENGL then yeah, you can use any modern graphics card that has dual monitor support, which is just about anything these days.

What you need is a games programmer, those guys know this stuff backwards, and they work for food - it has been a lot of years since I did any real programming, but conceptually what Paul has spelled out is not difficult for any programmer that has worked with DirectX or OpenGL graphics programming.
Just need to find a codemonkey and invite him to Art's place and then suck him/her into the world of CRTs....

Bad news is that OpenGL has been dropped from Vista, (another reason MS can stick Vista AFAIC).

Dok, I'll hunt around. Montreal is Game devleopment capital of the world. Also Matrox is here. Perhaps someone at the office has the right contacts.

I think thi sonly strengthnes the argument that you don;t need a $25k box to do the job. Actually Paul proved that himself with his system.

Interesting post http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?threadid=71465&goto=nextnewest

Just out 2 weeks ago http://www.matrox.com/mga/workstation/video/news/press_rel/2006/pj4olp_release.cfm

Getting closer http://www.amiravis.com/usersguide40/hxtracking/AmiraVR-superwide.html

http://www.tgs.com/support/datasheet/MCS_amiraVR.pdf

Hello

This would have been worth chasing 6-7 years ago, standard definition DVDs and such; you are chasing ghosts regards anything HD......the PCs and applicable cards will not cut it here.....I have been asked fifty times why do we not have a "BlendZilla Lite" solution with fewer features for $5-6K, and the answer Kiddies is......every feature built into BlendZilla is needed to give the desired results. The features are switching, transcoding, exotic scaling, and programmable luminance rolloff; anyone able to do all this, with 1080i and other sources, with a PC, wins from me a costly steak dinner anywhere they choose............

From the Toshiba HD-XA1 playing "Bourne Supremacy":

http://i5.tinypic.com/15wnbxe.jpg

http://i3.tinypic.com/15wo56h.jpg

Moooo!

http://tvone.vnewscenter.com/press.jsp?id=1146666030811

wonder how much these boxes are. They are HD-SDI input switchers so are HD.

Seems one box can do both sides of the blend.

Bad news is that OpenGL has been dropped from Vista, (another reason MS can stick Vista AFAIC).

Then Vista will never be used in the CAD market..


Tim, we don't need all that switching/transcoding/scaling etc.

1 RGBHV at up to 1920x1080 in, 2 RGBHV at up to 1280x1080's out. That's all.

Sources can be handled by an upstream switcher - so can scaling and transcoding.

Or some driver level software in a PC. PC is my only source, for DVD and HD, not going to change anytime soon.

Blendzilla is just too expensive. Sorry....

Just out 2 weeks ago http://www.matrox.com/mga/workstation/video/news/press_rel/2006/pj4olp_release.cfm

Mmmm! From what I read they seem to have MISSED THE POINT AGAIN!!!!!

output resolution behind the Nvidia option.

Edge overlap - BUT I could see NO mention of blend zone - HALF a job !!!

http://tvone.vnewscenter.com/press.jsp?id=1146666030811

wonder how much these boxes are. They are HD-SDI input switchers so are HD.

Seems one box can do both sides of the blend.

Now that IS news :D

this is a product I had NOT seen in the past........

UK price is £6000.00 so call it $12000.00 But I guess it will actually be cheaper in USA as things always are!

It is smaller than zilla, and offers HD inputs, if it works then Zilla could loose the the throne................

Maybe its time for Tim to take on board the calls for Zilla lite??? the day will come as with all technology when it is made cheaper and better by others............

Thats just a fact of life...........

The company that reacts to the needs will stay, those that dont, wont!




I will ask for screen shots and blend setting options..................

I could actually buy one of these within the next 4 weeks !!!!

I have to wait as I have one last option to try out.





Nvidia system is still running here, I need to set up the PJ's one last time, FULLY calibrated this time............







Anyone know the song.........................Oh! Lord wont you buy me...........a Barco 1209s :D

MadMrH - how is the NVidia solution progressing? Have you got rid of the dreaded "line"? I want to find out if it possible with the later NVidia's, but haven't seen an update from you since you posted the left half of the picture!

Cheers, Steve

Hi,

video footage of the blend in action is here......

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=352438

Some people said the videos did not work if so I will reload them....

Free hosting.......

Sounds pretty good doesnt it !!!



May 8, 2006



EDGE BLENDING ADDED TO TV ONE’S C2-7000 SERIES PRODUCTS
Feature offered standard with new C2-7000 units, downloadable
upgrades for existing models available free


ERLANGER, KY, May 8, 2006—TV One will add edge blending to its entire C2-7000 line of multi-format scaling seamless switchers by early July. Existing owners can also benefit from this great feature since all C2-7000 models are firmware based thanks to TV One’s award-winning CORIO2 technology. All it takes is a simple visit to the TV One tech support website found at http://tvone.crmdesk.com for the free download. All registered customers will receive an email once this download is available on the site.

Edge blending is an easy task for the C2-7000 series since it is a dual-channel product. The images to be blended may be strategically aligned side by side or stacked vertically for seamless display, or multiple C2-7000 units can be added for more dramatic expansion: For example, four images can be blended into one just by using two C2-7000 units. Because of the C2-7000 Series’ ability to ‘feather’ any or all of the edges, images can also be aligned vertically, horizontally, or both to create unusual displays.

TV One products are based on flexibility, which is why edge blending is not limited to high resolution RGB computer images, but includes composite video, S-Video, YUV or YPbPr component video, SD-SDI, HD-SDI, DVI or any of the multiple formats supported by the various C2-7000 models. Gamma correction is employed to compensate for many of the problems faced when doing edge blending between projectors. For example, an instance where a linear ramp in brightness sent to a projector may not correspond to linear brightness in the display can be corrected, resulting in a seamless, uniform image.
Blending standard video images is simple since special advance preparations are not needed. A single video image can be sent to the unit and internally processed, divided in half with proper overlaps, and fed to two separate projectors from the two independent outputs of the C2-7000 Series unit. For interesting results, two separate images can be fed into the unit and processed for blending to create one seamless image. PIP is available for each side of the blended images and the amount of overlap is adjustable, making the final aspect ratio variable.

The edge blending feature can also be used for other effects, such as adding a soft edge to single or dual picture-in-picture (PIP) windows on each output from the C2-7000 products.

TV One will debut these edge blending capabilities using the C2-7000 series at InfoComm in booth #2049. For more information, contact Amy Fraley at TV One.

From TV One, 1350 Jamike Drive, Erlanger, KY, 41018, 800-721-4044, 859-282-7303, http://www.tvone.com.

Graham,

On the USA site they have one in the B-Stock for $6300.00.

Mike

Not to piss on the tvone parade, but I am 90% sure that I saw this one at Infocomm. This was absolutely the worst blend at the show. The blend zone was easily visible.

Why hasn't anyone been pushing Beun to look into this? He mentioned the possibility on the twin. If it was made real simple, then it might be achievable at a low price.

Ericglo

Who knows, I only just found them in a web search. Who in the US is gonna call em? Maybe it was a crap setup at infocom?

Graham,

On the USA site they have one in the B-Stock for $6300.00.

Mike


Please, feel free to wave a large banner......

Hire a plane with an advert behind it......

Tell the world........

:p




Those that could not be bother to look did not deserve it........

Those of us that did might want it :D

Who knows, I only just found them in a web search. Who in the US is gonna call em? Maybe it was a crap setup at infocom?

It could have been. If it was, then why show it? I would have made up an excuse about technical problems.

Just because this one wasn't that great doesn't mean there weren't some decent blends. Digital Projection had two pjs blended on a 25 foot screen. I had a difficult time seeing the blend zone.

Ericglo

It could have been. If it was, then why show it? I would have made up an excuse about technical problems.

Ericglo

Maybe a BETA version?

Alright! So I had my head up my arss this morning!

:o

Sorry about that Mad.


Uh, the one I mentioned earlier was a typo. It is really priced at $63,000.00. So at triple the cost of Tim's little thingy, I wouldn't touch it.

That should fix it, Mad!

:D

Mike

Why hasn't anyone been pushing Beun to look into this? He mentioned the possibility on the twin. If it was made real simple, then it might be achievable at a low price.

Ericglo

What are you thinking here? Go ahead and have a video card do the overlap but a hardware device between the video card and the PJ do the soft edge/contrast modulation?

Dave

I live an hours drive away from Erlanger, Ky.
I will be leaving for a couple of weeks vacation soon, but will call them as soon as I get back to see if I can see this thing in action. Perhaps they have one set up as a demo.

I live an hours drive away from Erlanger, Ky.
I will be leaving for a couple of weeks vacation soon, but will call them as soon as I get back to see if I can see this thing in action. Perhaps they have one set up as a demo.
Isn't Gary Murrell from that area?

On a Side note, is anyone else getting tired of Tim's negativity? Sales must not be as brisk as he thinks they should be for Blendzilla. Could be that he has not even bothered to install it in a light controled room. How realistic of an installation is that.

He's starting to remind me of the CQC developer that used to pop up in every HTPC frontend thread.

Tim, take a note from MP and let your product speak for itself and don't jump into every thread. Even if someone comes up with a more affordable option, you can focus on being a "MP5" of blenders. Of course, imagine what Mike might do with that unit.

By the way, if I could really afford $30k for two decent pjs and Belendzilla, I'd be out to visit in a heartbeat. In the mean time, I can not justify the trip just to window shop.

Brian - I really don't see any negativism in Tim's remarks. I know that he has chased blending for quite a few years and I not only appreciate his efforts, but also his advice.
Recall that he was the one who spent the time, effort, and maybe even $$ getting Folsom (or whoever they were) to do a prototype. He shared all this experience with us, and he has helped us all.
It was neither convenient nor cheap for me to fly to Scottsdale to see 'Zilla, but it is the only first class blended home theater that I know of, and I appreciate the time and effort he spent with me.
Am I excited about blending CRT's. Hell yes! I have seen it and it is truly awe inspiring. I check every post every day about blending and would also hope to have it at a more affordable amount.
Bottom line is that I appreciate the information Tim has given us and the many times he has helped people with EH problems.

Thanks,
Bob

Hello all,

I'd like to throw my thoughts and experiences into the mix regarding blending on CRT projectors. My investigations have focused on the nVidia overlap/soft edge combination in the Quadro drivers. I can save everyone some time right off the bat by saying that my experiences have mirrored exactly those of Terry, Clarence and Andy - I couldn't get a transparent blend across the full IRE range of the video material I used. Further, I believe that the problem is not the concept (as proven by Tim's success) but nVidia's software implementation. The end result is, however, a compelling image that suggests what CRT front projection can do is a side-blended configuration. I learned some things along the way and these experiences I think will be more valuable than the ultimate success or failure of the exercise.

For this project I used two Electrohome Marquee 8000 projectors, build dates 10/95 and 11/95. The two sets had a similar compliment of boards and CLM software, both employing software version 2.2. To drive these displays I used a Pentium III computer running at 900mhz and equipped with 512Mb of RAM. In the computer was an nVida 5700LE video card. The 5700LE is currently being running by a patched set of drivers (Forceware 91.29) written/enabled by Alec Ryben that in function makes the computer believe that the card is a Quadro 1100. If anyone wants a procedure for how to make appropriate nVidia cards run the Quadro drivers, please see the guru3d site. Alternately, I'd be happy to type up the distilled version of it here, if there is any interest.

I've read speculation on the avforums board in the UK that one or another Quadro card may be more or less suited to the soft-edge blending of video, but my successes in using a card that was in the transition between being a commodity and junk two years ago suggests to me that horsepower in the GPU is not really the limiting factor here. While the 5700LE may be close to the least competent card for this application, I've never had a problem with the GPU being the bottleneck. Functionally, the contrast modulation function in the nVida implementation happens in software, so any card that makes available the edge blending function available in software will be able to run a blend. I mention this only because it in effect significantly lowers the cost barrier of entry into these sorts of experiments. Further, with the DXVA the computer I'm using has enough juice in it to run and blend all of the MPEG-2 film I've found to throw at it.

The nVidia approach to contrast modulation uses a two tiered approach, both accessible from the nVidia control panel. The first splits and overlaps the display outputs using user-defined parameters. The second effects the contrast modulation via a user process called "nVKeystone," again, using a set of user-defined inputs. The split and overlap seems fairly trivial, but the contrast modulation in nVKeystone seems to be the problem, as no amount of "tweaking" of the inputs, in my experience, has yielded a transparent blend zone over the IRE range of video. As more people try this approach I'd be glad to share my experiences, but Mr. Mad H's pictorial on the avforums presents some revealing visual representations of how the controls work. My guess would be that if the nVida approach is ever going to be viable, it will take a reworking of the nVKeystone software, which doesn't seem to be anything that nVidia is particularly interested in doing. As Terry wrote and my experiences confirm, nVidia is happy with the implementation as is, and doesn't seem to be too interested in developing it very much further. I have my fingers crossed, though.

The nVidia approach has the benefit of being independent of the actual processing of the image; it seems that once the video is rendered (in my case by VMR9) it is handed to the video card which then proceeds to split, overlap, and modulate the contrast of the blend zone. In this way it is functionally like an outboard blender because it leaves the video processing chain undisturbed. While this is convenient now, I'm not sure that the approach will work with the upcoming DRM strategies on the newer formats, because it seems that these formats require a protected path from the disc to the monitor's HDCP receiver. I'm not sure that this protection will allow for the sort of image manipulation necessary to effect the blend. Maybe someone with a better understanding of AACS could comment on this.

Particulars of the software aside, the blending solution works well. Subjectively I'd say that it work across 90% of the IRE range, with the failures coming at the top end. I'll snap some pictures to demonstrate, using both 0-255 ramps and 16-235 ramps. One problem is that it fails at each individual color at the high IRE's, so it's not just whites that are affected - high IRE reds, blue and greens all display a bright vertical band in the blend zone jointly and severally. So the problem ends up in more scenes than might initially be expected. That said, my reaching for the remote to change the contrast bothers anyone watching a movie far more than the blend irregularities, so I'm usually shouted down when the urge to tweak hits.

I didn't find the setup time on the projectors to be excessive, but since this is my hobby I may value the time spent differently from others who are interested in this. Knowing what I know now, I was able to set up the projectors from scratch into a blended configuration in about four hours. That said, I'm working with, once again, probably the least competent projectors for this task. The Marquee 8000's don't have any horizontal linearity adjustments and both of the projectors I used had significant horizontal irregularities (wider on left side than the right), so I had to rely on interpolated green convergence to achieve the closest horizontal geometry that I could. This was the most time consuming part of the process, as it necessitated putting up a string grid on my screen and converging the projectors first to the grid and secondly tuning them to one another. The end result was a perceptually coherent geometry accross the whole screen, with almost no convergence drift over a two week period.

I'd be happy to type up what I did to set up the projectors relative to the screen and each other, but it would take a while and I'm not sure if there is any interest. Suffice it to say, I found it neither tedious nor difficult, and the engineering of the Marquee software actually made it an enjoyable process. I think the key to the process is being able to find a set of resolution/overlap settings and projector placement that at once maximize vertical raster usage and provide for a sufficient blend area.

I chose to use a 16x9 screen at 120" wide (~137" diagonal) for the screen because that size best fit the room I was using. When all was said and done, I measured 7.5 foot-lamberts off of the Behr Ultrawhite painted screen from a roughly 25% peak white square, using moderate (55) contrast settings on the projectors. I had regularized the output of each projector using a constant contrast and brightness setting and varying the Gain/G2 settings to normalize the projectors' color balance to one another. More specifically, this was 25% of one projector as opposed to the whole screen; I didn't measure anything in the blend zone because I assumed it would be the same, not accounting for blend zone irregularities. This is probably an invalid assumption, but I didn't really want to get into the varying dynamics of the projectors and overall color balance because the vagaries and differences are more subtle than my perception in film material.

The overall resolution of the display is 1920x1080, with each projector running 1208x1080 at 48hz. This works out to an overall bandwidth per projector of 85mhz, which I believe to be well within the capabilities of the 8000 chassis, aged as it is. In a vertical one on / one off resoltion pattern I can see lines defined clearly for most of the image, with slight blurring in the middle of the blend zone. At the screen, I can see scan line structure in a full white field over the whole screen on each projector independantly, but again, in the blend zone there is blurring. This may be something that can be eliminated with a better set up of the projectors, but again, perceptually the mild blurring was beyond the limits of my visual acuity even at the screen using film material. My projector set up experience is not as good as some of the others who contribute to this forum, but over the past year and a half that I've been enjoying these CRT projectors I've put my feet to the fire trying to get 8" Marquees as close to resolving 1080p images in a 16x9 frame as possible. Some may say this is not, but I learned quite a bit in the process and in chasing that white whale I've certainly challenged my ability to set up the Marquee chassis. Compared to that, setting the Marquee up for 1080 lines over the full raster height is a breeze; Even before I had finished my setup and before I started tweaking the blended projectors I had an image that was far sharper, saturated and more engaging than anthing I had previously seen with one projector. That is to say, I don't think you have to have the tightest setup to see the benefits of blending for CRT projection, but that's not going to stop me from tweaking the projectors more than I probably should. It's my impression that the Marquee chassis is cruising at these bandwidth and resolution requirements, with little strain to the electronics or the resolving capabilities of the 8" tubes.

At the end of the day, though, while this was a technically engaging process and an interesting design challenge, it is far from the "reference" display that I think is the goal of the members of this forum. In terms of fidelity of resolving power, color saturation, sheer size, light output, dynamics and character this display bests anything I have seen in my limited experience. So technically, it is impressive, and speaks to what blended CRT's can do for home theater front projection. However, the fact that the blend zone is visible in various scenes precludes this approach, as least as far I have taken it, from enabling me to just put down the remote and enjoy a movie. I'm still bothered by the blend, (I seem to be the only one, though maybe others are just being polite) and right now I'm just trying my hardest not to pick up the phone and call Tim.

I apologize for this brain-dump of a post, but I think that the blend project is one worth pursing, and I hope that my experiences might be of use to anyone who has had the patience to keep reading up to this point. I could go on about this, but if anyone has any specific questions I'd be happy to answer them as best I can. I've also tried a 2:35 1080 line blend, and I'd be happy to answer any questions for those interested. I'll get some pictures of the set up over the weekend.

Slarti

Brian - I really don't see any negativism in Tim's remarks.

I beg to differ.


"You guys kill me.....

You will have spent, in time and effort, what our existing functioning DVX BlendZilla system costs, and your PC efforts will still give nothing......... "

I'm sure the high end DVD player salesmen said the same thing to Andrew and Blight. Glad they pushed ahead.

I also appreciate the effort Tim has put in, as far as I know, he first introduced the idea of blending in this forum. I just think he sounds so negative to anyone else's ideas. He also seems reluctant to entertain the option of blendzilla light where switching and scaling would be handled by seperate hardware.

Ideally, since these manipulations are digital, it would be best to keep the signal digital throughout, but from a cost perspective a blender only box might have broader appeal.

I agree with that fact that Tim appears not to want a lite version.....

But to be honest we are asking the wrong person.

Analogue Way - they need to be asked.........

(I like the name - ANALOGUE!)

He is trying to sell the full version, why would he want a lite version, the full version is sold with PJ's and setup.

the lite version will be sold to people who want to try it themselves.........AND will only lead to loads of calls from people who cant set it up in 5 minutes........

I have spent OVER 150 hours in testing.........

MANY MANY thanks to Slarti,

your post says ALL I feel about the blend, and also agrees 100% with what I have seen.


And YES I read every single word........

Analogue Way - they need to be asked.........

(I like the name - ANALOGUE!)


They spelled it incorrectly! :D :p :D

Hello all,

I'd like to throw my thoughts and experiences into the mix regarding blending on CRT projectors. My investigations have focused on the nVidia overlap/soft edge combination in the Quadro drivers. ...



Slarti,

Excellent, informative and well written post. Thank you! I read every single word too - twice :)

Do you believe that the effect of "blurring" of the scanlines in the blend zone is creating the effect of a brighter image in the blend zone? Maybe try running at a slightly lower resolution (800 lines instead of 1080) and see if the blend zone "blends" better?

Paul

What are you thinking here? Go ahead and have a video card do the overlap but a hardware device between the video card and the PJ do the soft edge/contrast modulation?

Dave

Something like that. I see it is being discussed on Curt's forum. Here is some quotes from Kim (to put his feet to the fire:)):


Instead of blending in the driver domain, how about blending in the RGB domain, in between the video-card and the projector.

Technically it is fairly simple. You do a ramp controlled gain on each line by bringing the amplitude down at the end of the line for the left image and at the same time increasing the gain at the beginning of the line of the right image. With two controls (for ramp down and ramp up) you should easily be able to make the two images perfectly fit.

So what's the sync problem, the unit can also convert the syncs to anything you would need.

The price shouldn't be too high when you can spread it out over several units, the bigger question is how many units would be needed and where is the price pain point.


This is how I see the blend-box, please correct me if I am wrong here.


The box has two RGBHV inputs and two RGBHV outputs. One in- and output is for the left projector and one is for the right projector. The source as produced by a HTPC already has the overlap but not the blending. The blend-box will ramp the brightness down at the right side of the left projector and ramp the brightness up on the left side of the right projector. It will be possible so set the width of the ramp for both and the position of the brightness ramp down of the left projector.

When I am not making a mistake here, this will allow full control over the positioning of the blend.



This is a very interesting link and means the blender would need some (preferably) digital control for a perfect blend. I still think it can be done at significantly less than $20000 (19999.99 anyone?).

How much would people be willing to pay Kim for this?

Ericglo

...I'd like to throw my thoughts and experiences into the mix regarding blending on CRT projectors. My investigations have focused on the nVidia overlap/soft edge combination in the Quadro drivers. I can save everyone some time right off the bat by saying that my experiences have mirrored exactly those of Terry, Clarence and Andy...

...One problem is that it fails at each individual color at the high IRE's, so it's not just whites that are affected - high IRE reds, blue and greens all display a bright vertical band in the blend zone jointly and severally. So the problem ends up in more scenes than might initially be expected. That said, my reaching for the remote to change the contrast bothers anyone watching a movie far more than the blend irregularities, so I'm usually shouted down when the urge to tweak hits.

...Knowing what I know now, I was able to set up the projectors from scratch into a blended configuration in about four hours... I had to rely on interpolated green convergence to achieve the closest horizontal geometry that I could. This was the most time consuming part of the process, as it necessitated putting up a string grid on my screen and converging the projectors first to the grid...

...I chose to use a 16x9 screen at 120" wide... I measured 7.5 foot-lamberts off of the Behr Ultrawhite painted screen from a roughly 25% peak white square, using moderate (55) contrast...

...The overall resolution of the display is 1920x1080, with each projector running 1208x1080 at 48hz. This works out to an overall bandwidth per projector of 85mhz...

...At the end of the day, though, while this was a technically engaging process and an interesting design challenge, it is far from the "reference" display that I think is the goal of the members of this forum.... However, the fact that the blend zone is visible in various scenes precludes this approach, as least as far I have taken it, from enabling me to just put down the remote and enjoy a movie. I'm still bothered by the blend...

...I think that the blend project is one worth pursing, and I hope that my experiences might be of use to anyone who has had the patience to keep reading up to this point...

Slarti
Best post I've read in a loooong time.

Thanks.

Screenshots? location?

I agree with that fact that Tim appears not to want a lite version.....

But to be honest we are asking the wrong person.

Analogue Way - they need to be asked.........

(I like the name - ANALOGUE!)

He is trying to sell the full version, why would he want a lite version, the full version is sold with PJ's and setup.

the lite version will be sold to people who want to try it themselves.........AND will only lead to loads of calls from people who cant set it up in 5 minutes........

I have spent OVER 150 hours in testing.........


Guys!

I welcome all attempts to lower the costs of the hardware required, please do not confuse skepticism with negativity--I have pledged a costly steak dinner to anyone who appears on my front door step with a fully functional PC-based system, HDTV capable, for less that what the DVX sells for, I do not believe that PCs and video cards have the required power to do what is needed with a pleasing result, I just do not see this happening.

Historically, this is what the hardware was costing, and some of this hardware was demonstrated here at E-Tech:

Folsom ScreenPro switcher/scaler and BlendPro contrast modulator list $35K the pair.
Nice image, no digital in or out, very awkward to switch without PC control by
RS232 scripting

Folsom DisplayProHD list $15K, only problem is they never Built the damn thing, I ordered one and the reply was "can you use thirty?" I wish.......

Vista Systems, model number escapes me, $100K entry point two years ago, told they might have a $35K solution now, these guys are twenty miles from me, I have not pursued any demos as too costly for my needs.

Silicon Optix ImageBEX, two required, $6K each, my requests for demo was ignored several times, thanks anyway.......

Analogue Way DVX, list $17K, it is here and it really works fine and I am thrilled every night when I fire this thing up......and no, I do not intend to paint my living room walls black........

Hello all,

I'll get some pictures of the project up in the next few days. I'll post some IRE ramps and generally try to demonstrate the benefits and shortcomings of the nVidia software approach. If anyone is interested in pictures demonstrating the competency of the Marquee 8000's I can snap some of those as well.

If anyone can recommend some test patterns or film material that might useful in assesing the viability of this approach I would appreciate it. I have a decent selection of computer-based test pattern generators and a variety of MPEG-2 material.

And thanks to all for the kind words.

Slarti

Isn't Gary Murrell from that area?

Tim, take a note from MP and let your product speak for itself and don't jump into every thread. Even if someone comes up with a more affordable option, you can focus on being a "MP5" of blenders. .

What, you want him to make them, show them and then never actually sell them?
;)

What, you want him to make them, show them and then never actually sell them?
;)

Give the guy a break.. he's done more good for this scene than harm.

MP came through for me on his revision 2 mods for both my 9500LC Ultra's!

You guys seem to be pretty down on Tim. I've been a member of this forum for more than seven years and have seen Tim help countless numbers of people with their projectors (most of which were not bought from him) without ever asking anything in return.

Tim is a complete enthusiest in this exciting hobby and always speaks the truth without any regard to what it may cost or gain him in sales. I know for a fact, that he would <i>definately</i> like to see a "Blendzilla Lite" version.

Additionally, I've also known him on a personal level for longer than I've been a member here and I've never met a more honest person or known anyone with a higher level of integrity than him.

That being said, Tim, I think you're wrong about a PC never being able to blend an HD picture. If someone were determined to develop the video card(s) and write the software, eventually the processing power is going to be there to do it.

Mark.

Nothing on MP himself, It just seemed an odd choice of product for Briands to use an example of good marketing/business practice. I would have chosen a product that actually made it to market as an example.

Great post from Slartibartfasst, and I've checked out MadMrH's pics from avforums.

Overall it sounds to me that edge-blending using videocard is possible, just the NVidia controls are not the best. Not CPU intensive according to Slatibartfasst, and no bright line outside the blend zone (old problem) from MadMrH's pics.

I noted in Paul Bourke's paper, that the last refinement he implements is luminance control in the blendzone (either brighter or darker), which may correct the problems seen by slarti and MrH.

I think implementing the OpenGL functions in a video card would be the way to do it (although maybe not userfriendly interface dealing with code to adjust the parameters). I have starting asking programming mates if they can show me how to do it for me, but I don't have 2 projectors so I can't provide any test results.

At least by using Open GL you can use almost any videocard (dual pipeline), with slarti using a 5700 and not seeing GPU capacity as an issue.

PS. Tim - I also think you are a great CRT enthusiat and your website tutorials helped me greatly when I started with my M8000. I also think your Blenzilla looks awesome, as the rolls-royce of blending, but with my VW budget it's simply not an option. Also given I only use a HTPC (no blu-ray etc), edge blending in videocard/software would suit me 100%.

Syd, I think Paul Bourke is on OZ somewhere as wqell. Though it could be Melbourne.

"You guys seem to be pretty down on Tim"

Oh no, not at all. He's just whetted our appetites...but much as I'd like to, a pair of G90s and a Blendzilla is beyond me. Blendzilla on it's own is a pipedream.

A pair of 8" LC pjs and a PC is a possibility..a remote one, but I already have one 8" LC and a PC :) Pity my room isn't wide enough for a giant 2.35:1 screen :(

Syd, I think Paul Bourke is on OZ somewhere as wqell. Though it could be Melbourne.

Yep, Melbourne I think. His page is through the Swinburne Uni here in Melbourne anyway. The young whippersnapper here at work is studying engineering at Swinburne. Small world..

Mark, If only someone could twist Pauls' arm to do a Job on the side for a few Bob and a crate of Castlemaine xxxx we'd be in business ;)

I think you guys are all overestimating what it would take to make the Nvidia FX cards work for blending.

You would need to set the contrast and black levels at the projector so both Projectors are the same at its extents.

Then you need an enhancement to the Nvidia driver so that the advanced gamma ramp can be set on one side of the blend only ( instead of global as it is now)

The using horizontal gray scale bars, (across the blend zone and screens) set at 10 IRE intervals manually adjust the gamma ramp on one side of the blend to match the other side.

The advanced Gamma ramp in the card is an line representation that can be pulled at anypoint along its length to increase or decrease the cards output along the area between full black and full white.

This is the only driver change we require to make the Nvidia cards work for us.

If you havent used the Nvidia driver and the advanced gamma ramps you will find this hard to understand.

I spent a lot of time with this 18 months ago. Nvidia at that time where not interested in what i had to say. Maybe things have changed.

Maybe they are about to :confused:

But who knows ;)

OK. Last I'm going to comment about it.

I appreciate all that Tim has brought to the forum. I think his skeptical comments in every DIY blending thread tend to add little value to the discussion of getting one of them to work. The comments about MP (sorry Mike, didn't mean to drag you into this) were in regards to the development of the other transcoders. I don't recall him jumping into those threads saying that they were wasting their time. Though he did have to defend the pricing of his product pretty regularly.

Brian, I was keeping my mouth shut. But all these DIY Blending threads are getting hijaked by Others threatened by a cheap solution. Look it is simple, it's only software. Any of the newer dual output Video cards will do this. I proposed to pay some coders in India via rentacoder.com to develop the software for us. Or Persuade Paul Bourke in Australia to do it for some money, which we would all chip in for, upto approx $300 per person or something.

But then the threads get hijaked by the Blendzilla lovefeast Team, and poff, the momentum dies. So, I guess it will never happen as to many people get intimidated easily. Personally I don;t think the Blendzilla people should have a say in these threads. They have their $17k box, they should focus on selling it, instead of dumping on the rest of us.

Brian, I was keeping my mouth shut. But all these DIY Blending threads are getting hijaked by Others threatened by a cheap solution.

But then the threads get hijaked by the Blendzilla lovefeast Team, and poff, the momentum dies. So, I guess it will never happen as to many people get intimidated easily. Personally I don;t think the Blendzilla people should have a say in these threads. They have their $17k box, they should focus on selling it, instead of dumping on the rest of us.

Which Blendzilla people are you referring to?

Tim

Hello

I believe that Forums exist for the participants to express their opinions; some may not agree with what others say here but we should agree that the other guy, within reasonable limits, has a right to express himself on these topics. I see the BlendZilla system as pretty top shelf, the video equivalent to Wilson speakers or something, and I do not expect these to fly off the shelves, though that would be nice to see....... :D

Tim

Yes?

See, Tim you turn all thse threads into giant Advertisements for the Blendzilla. That is what bothers me, you poo poo us then, wax lyrical about how great the Analog Way box is. Yes, it is Fantastic, I'd love to have one it is the perfect solution technically.

But at $17k it's just not going to happen for the majority of us living in the real world of Kids, Mortage etc etc. If they were $5k then you'd be selling a ton of them & we would have nothing to worry about.

Hello

I guess I'll shut up now.........Gino is about to take over as my publicist :D

Tim

So who makes up the rest of the "Blendzilla lovefeast Team"

I have bought the DVX8022. You don't see me telling you guys are wasting your time. In fact I keep in touch with Andy regarding his PC blending solution.

The Blendzilla is the best at what it does. But I too am keen to see if this PC based blending ever works out. I am keen to see how much a pc-based solution will actually cost. I've heard some of those cards are quite expensive. I'm also keen to see whether it is possible with HD material as Tim seems to think not, why is this? (What's the point of finding a solution that will only blend SD)

I would love to blend 4 projectors! mmm.. QUAD-BLEND :cool:

I would love to blend 4 projectors! mmm.. QUAD-BLEND :cool:


Gino

I advise you drive to the store and purchase a quart of "medication" :D Remain Calm!

Quad,

Man catch up......................


Were into sextuplit blending here :D


OK - so only five actually made it to the the test rig :o


And when I say "Blending " I mean "Banding" :p

:eek:

Quad,
Man catch up......................
Were into sextuplit blending here :D


Tim, I think Andy may need that medication ;)

I proposed to pay some coders in India via rentacoder.com to develop the software for us. Or Persuade Paul Bourke in Australia to do it for some money, which we would all chip in for, upto approx $300 per person or something.

Like Gino, I have also purchased a DVX8022 from Tim. Proof that I'm not hear to squash any development efforts for a PC-based blender is in my post earlier in this thread. I disagreed with Tim about it not being eventually possible to do with a PC.

What he has done is actually pursued bringing a blending product to market, not just proposed that we all chip in for development.

Instead of us all chipping in for software development, I think this is a fantastic business opportunity for you to get some financial backing, develop the PC-based blending product, and then sell it. Heck I may even buy one.

Mark.

Like Gino, I have also purchased a DVX8022 from Tim.
Mark.

Blendzilla #3 :) Welcome to the club... PM sent

Like Gino, I have also purchased a DVX8022 from Tim. Proof that I'm not hear to squash any development efforts for a PC-based blender is in my post earlier in this thread. I disagreed with Tim about it not being eventually possible to do with a PC.

What he has done is actually pursued bringing a blending product to market, not just proposed that we all chip in for development.

Instead of us all chipping in for software development, I think this is a fantastic business opportunity for you to get some financial backing, develop the PC-based blending product, and then sell it. Heck I may even buy one.

Mark.

Already in process, I came to the conclusion that it is easier to sell afterwards then 'Chip in' before. I will keep everyone posetd on the developments, busy looking for some code monkeys to work on the project right now.

Guys!

In the interest of exploring possible 2megapixel projection solutions on screens fifteen feet or wider, we have borrowed two Christie industrial DLP machines and set up our DVX edge-blending processor in the shop for a bit of testing; we have replaced the DTC100 with a Dish VIP211 tuner and the results are quite noticeable:


http://i2.tinypic.com/1zovza9.jpg

http://i1.tinypic.com/1zovxmq.jpg

http://i1.tinypic.com/1zow1g8.jpg

http://i1.tinypic.com/1zow581.jpg

http://i1.tinypic.com/1zow7cn.jpg



We elected the Christies to test with as they come packed with an impressive array of standard features including single/dual lamp options, lamp power fine tuning, static lens aperture tuning, motorized lens shift, and a suite of lens options out to 7.0 zoom. Black levels are looking impressive so far in single lamp mode, if one were to want a screen over fifteen foot width then the second lamp can be selected. 1400x1050 native single chip, the punch and three-dimensionality look promising so far, more news as we continue testing this week.


"What madman would do such a thing, and for what purpose?" Mooooohahahah!

On the first pic looks like you can see the intersection. Look at the base board under the electrical outlet. Or is that just what the pic looks like?

How does it compare to just shooting with one?

Scott

This was a crude setup, the overlap is not quite perfect; the Chrisite's offer some image warping, I would have to attend a class to learn all the features, the manual is 138 pages!!!!!!! :D

Blendzilla #3 :) Welcome to the club... PM sent Gino I have to ask, how did you make the leap from an 8500 with an arcing tube to a 9500Lc Blendzilla? I mean it looks like you skipped some upgrade steps in between? :) Also, can you post some pics in your gallery, it would be nice to see a pair of 9500LCs ceiling mounted and their relationship to the seating in the theatre.

busy looking for some code monkeys to work on the project right now. well when you put it like that i'm sure programers will just be lining up :D

On a side note I have not really followed this thread and just now skimmed through it. I thinks it more than a little amusing that for years no one even talked about blending. It was generally accepted as un-doable, and even people with fairly deep pockets who looked into it gave up and wound up stacking G90's instead. Now, FINALLY Tim Martin after years of looking finds the perfect solution, for half the cost of a stinking Qualia or JVCHD2K bulb machine. Now all of a sudden everyone is totally convinced that there just HAS to be a cheaper solution. LOL :D :rolleyes: I love it, this whole situation sums up the internet and forums perfectly. :)

:rolleyes: I love it, this whole situation sums up the internet and forums perfectly. :)

To be fair, there are other evolutionary effects that bring so much attention to blending. One primary draw is the popularity of 2.35:1 CH setups.

You are right, for years there was very little talk of blending. But for years there was very little talk of 2.35:1 constant height setups - and now there is an entire forum section dedicated to it!

Paul

Guys!

Totally all new and better pix on the post above, do have a look......the Dish tuner is rather better......

Here's a question regarding HD-DVD and Blu-Ray:

On these formats, is the "native" aspect ratio 16:9, as it is with anamorphic DVD?
(A true 16:9 anamorphic presentation without any added-on letterboxing will use every
pixel in the 16:9, 720x480 frame.)

I figured this would be as good a place as any to ask, as aspect ratios are clearly important when dealing with blended projectors.

CJ

Some news on blending http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=698102

Gino I have to ask, how did you make the leap from an 8500 with an arcing tube to a 9500Lc Blendzilla? I mean it looks like you skipped some upgrade steps in between? :) Also, can you post some pics in your gallery, it would be nice to see a pair of 9500LCs ceiling mounted and their relationship to the seating in the theatre.

That's quite funny you mention that. If the 8500 wasnt arcing, I probably wouldn't have been looking for an upgrade! Skipped some steps...maybe, but why not?! :)

Will post pics when I have things setup. Only just got the things into the house today. Look for my thread.

Guys!

Congrats to Gino for stepping up and selecting the best! His is the first customer BlendZilla system
we have supplied, and it is gonna be awesome. :D

If you have a video card that will span video across both monitors (Nvidia?) then Azzad wrote an AVIsynth script (and bitmap mask) which may work for DVD, and only needs one PC.

PM me if you want the bitmap.

mark, send me this script

thx Mate

Yonex, I tried the script on my old (soon to be replaced) P4 @3GHz HTPC.
It works great.
But it requires some horsepower (at least more than my old P4 (the first 2.8GHz to hit the streets))
But it works and it is possible to do a new setup, in the script together with a new higher resolution bitmap, that will allow blending of highdefinition material, IF we have enough speed with the newest CPU's.

So good luck.

Henrik

Thank you Intel for the New Core 2 Duo!!! :)

henrik, can you email it to me? I PM'ed you with my email.

thx Ken./

Ok, I tried this Bitmap approach, but it completely screws up the colours on DVD Playback. For instance in the trailer for CARS, the Red car becomes blue. This only occurs if I turn on avisynth in FFdshow in post processing within TT2.2

So the script is definately doing something screwey!

Oh no, the script IS working. I tried it out in ZP on Serenity and all colors was dead on,
try ZP instead of TT.

Henrik

will do

Never used ZP before, so how do I confige it to use FFDshow etc?

It's OK, figured it out & the bitmap works now :)

Avisynth has a DirectShow "DirectShowSource" function. I haven't had the chance to try it out yet, but I don't see why this wouldn't be able to interface with an HD-SDI card like the Decklink that has a software DirectShow source filter. I would think the same would go for VLC. Perhaps someone familiar with DirectShow video capture could comment?

So, partial solution right now:


HTPC Solution
1) Geforece 9800 (Gt or Ultra) $100 Ebay can be converted into a Quadro 4000
Quadro 4000 can provide the overlap.
2) VLC or AVISynth can provide the blending

External solution

1) a) Geforce 9800 (Gt or Ultra) $100 Ebay can be converted into a Quadro 4000, Quadro 4000 can provide the overlap OR b) Scaler ------> Extron Box
2) Cyvix xed.1 provides the blend

OR
1) Source
2) Hd SDI Or Component Video capture card
3) VLC or AVISynth with ZP can provide the blending

Hopefully I will have tested all of these within the next 5 weeks.

K./

Actually, the AviSynth script provides both the overlap and the blend...
It takes the image and copies it.
Crops right part of one and left part of the other.
Puts them side by side.
Mixes the resulting overlap image with a grayscale image that fades out towards the middle so it can be fade-blended.

Henrik

some updates ont he other thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8213567#post8213567

So, partial solution right now:


HTPC Solution
1) Geforece 9800 (Gt or Ultra) $100 Ebay can be converted into a Quadro 4000
Quadro 4000 can provide the overlap.
2) VLC or AVISynth can provide the blending

External solution

1) a) Geforce 9800 (Gt or Ultra) $100 Ebay can be converted into a Quadro 4000, Quadro 4000 can provide the overlap OR b) Scaler ------> Extron Box
2) Cyvix xed.1 provides the blend

OR
1) Source
2) Hd SDI Or Component Video capture card
3) VLC or AVISynth with ZP can provide the blending

Hopefully I will have tested all of these within the next 5 weeks.

K./
So...how's the progress? It's been awhile...since August. Thanks, CMRA

Well I have the following items here that I am building at the mo...........

Nvidia 7950 GX2 cards.
BlackMagic HD Capture card
VLC
HD SDi Modified HD DVD player.....................

Currently I cant get a picture via VLC and the HD SDi capture card - might be me, not sure.

So...how's the progress? It's been awhile...since August. Thanks, CMRA


I finished my testing. All worked for me, and slarti tested the last config using a BMP overlay with a Nvidia card. That is the most interesting as you don;t need an external blender. Also, you don;t have to use the nividia blend feature which is buggy. The overlap works great so it seems to be a good solution. Throw in the new $250 blackmagic card and a scaled solution looks god for about $1500.

Slart should be able to comment more.

K./

Hi all,

I'm just putting the finishing touches on a DirectShow blender that should work on any dual-head graphics card. However, I haven't had access to my blend set-up, so I can't really say whether it works on screen yet. But as Ken said, it works fine on my 3GHZ Core2Duo rig while decompressing hig-bitrate MPEG-2 and h.264 video/audio, so a simple pass-through solution from a capture card like the Decklink shouldn't be a problem on any dual-core machine. I'll be able to report on its useability for HD component acquisition, as well. I'm working on an HD-SDI source.

I'll post the progress here, as this seems to be the thread for blending.

Just for clarification... this is DS, so no blending of desktop or other non-video aplications?

I finished my testing. All worked for me, and slarti tested the last config using a BMP overlay with a Nvidia card. That is the most interesting as you don;t need an external blender. Also, you don;t have to use the nividia blend feature which is buggy. The overlap works great so it seems to be a good solution. Throw in the new $250 blackmagic card and a scaled solution looks god for about $1500.

Slart should be able to comment more.

K./

"All worked for me" and "The overlap works great" sounds super. I'd be delighted to know more.

I finished my testing. All worked for me, and slarti tested the last config using a BMP overlay with a Nvidia card. That is the most interesting as you don;t need an external blender. Also, you don;t have to use the nividia blend feature which is buggy. The overlap works great so it seems to be a good solution. Throw in the new $250 blackmagic card and a scaled solution looks god for about $1500.

Slart should be able to comment more.

K./

So, what happened? It's been two+ months. Vaporspiel?

I can't think of anyone else that bumps their old threads, but that might be because no one starts quality threads like you do CMRA. Maybe your body of work is limited (a handful of threads you've bumped repeatedly for years), but it's good stuff, and it would a tragedy to let any of it die. I applaud your work, and I applaud your efforts to keep these important threads alive.

Keep up the good work CMRA!

Not much more to tell, the 'graphics overlay' kludge works well with the Powerwall feature - (there seems no reason for NVidia not to fix it themselves actually).

I can't think of anyone else that bumps their old threads, but that might be because no one starts quality threads like you do CMRA. Maybe your body of work is limited (a handful of threads you've bumped repeatedly for years), but it's good stuff, and it would a tragedy to let any of it die. I applaud your work, and I applaud your efforts to keep these important threads alive.

Keep up the good work CMRA!

Thanks. Does this mean you get top seat on the 'Who's who' thread? :D

Not much more to tell, the 'graphics overlay' kludge works well with the Powerwall feature - (there seems no reason for NVidia not to fix it themselves actually).

Now, I'm even more confused. Aside from the prohibitively expensive "Blendzilla", are there any other 'proven' options? Works well? Please explain.

Thanks. Does this mean you get top seat on the 'Who's who' thread? :D Good one! :D

Now, I'm even more confused. Aside from the prohibitively expensive "Blendzilla", are there any other 'proven' options? Works well? Please explain.
Guess you missed out on the "Blending, again" thread.
It's about using the Nvidia blending option, with it's faults, and mix in a compensation image in the blend zone to correct the Nvidia imperfections.
The compensation mixing is done with Avisynth via Ffdshow.
This means you can use any player that supports Ffdshow in the chain.
It's working great, although it consumes a nice amount of RAM and some CPU cycles and you have to make one Ffdshow-config and bmp for each resolution and aspect ratio your gonna play.
Would be nice with a dedicated hardcoded plugin, but this will do untill then.
Works great with 1920, even on my dual Sony 1271 setup @ 2.35:1 104".
See pic's in thread and read more about it here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=756584&page=1&pp=30

Henrik

Guess you missed out on the "Blending, again" thread.
It's about using the Nvidia blending option, with it's faults, and mix in a compensation image in the blend zone to correct the Nvidia imperfections.
The compensation mixing is done with Avisynth via Ffdshow.
This means you can use any player that supports Ffdshow in the chain.
It's working great, although it consumes a nice amount of RAM and some CPU cycles and you have to make one Ffdshow-config and bmp for each resolution and aspect ratio your gonna play.
Would be nice with a dedicated hardcoded plugin, but this will do untill then.
Works great with 1920, even on my dual Sony 1271 setup @ 2.35:1 104".
See pic's in thread and read more about it here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=756584&page=1&pp=30

Henrik

Thanks, good fuel for thought. Even bookmarked the thread.