Are you sure they're not referring to the Qualia 006? :confused:

Jason


Doesn't really say either way.

Hey, I'd like to see those guys get the first ones for a change. Good for them. :)

Wow...check out the "new" Qualia 004...yeah, that's an old article. Too bad, because I know that there are a ton of folks (myself included) that would be all over a non-Qualia 70" SXRD set...maybe when the old 70" XBR is finally phased out. Of course, by then the words "new TV" will have my wife breaking out the Flying Fist of Juda!

Jason

The Sony 70 in. SXRD XBR won't be released with this season's
50 in. and 60 in.

Those waiting for the 70 in. version will have to wait until next
season's models which will sport 50 in. / 60 in. / 70 in. models

I'm not 100% sure that wasn't the Qualia 006, but there are numerous mentions of a 70" SXRD for Australia if you Google "70" SXRD Australia." Some of the hits appear more current than late '04, early '05.

I don't even know who this Gary person is...and what was the date of his review? LCD and DLP projection has come a long way in the past couple of years. I think the Sony rep is probably talking about TUBE type CRT (which truly still is the STANDARD of PQ), ...NOT rear projection type. The other people have valid points also, but I still stand by my opinion that mainstream priced CRT's are inferior to most micro-displays. I was just in 2 stores tonight, and not ONE CRT-RPTV made me say WOW...this looks great. And face it, the things are going the way of the LP album, although some people still cling to those too. I find it amusing that the CRT fans hang in this room, and bash micro-displays. Like I said, if you guys prefer CRT then go buy one. It is a free country afterall.

He was talking about CRT technology in general as Sony still manufacturers them and they look really good.

What advances has LCD made? They still have poor blacks, Screen Door Effect, Silk Screen Effect etc. They are trying to address it with junk like dynamic Iris. But right now folks are using ND filters to try improve the black level on their LCD sets, if there was a real improvement in black level you would not find people using ND Filter mods on their sets.

I'm no LP vs CD person. Some audiophiles like the inaccurate sound of LP's over CD, what they take for warm sound is actually noise introduced into the signal. I don't why people use LP vs CD to compare CRT vs. Microdisplays, it is not a good comparsion. Audiophiles views are totally subjective whereas videophiles views are more objective.

See: Display technology Shoot out
http://www.corporatemedianews.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=25310-0

You can scientically break down the advantage that CRT have over fixed pixel displays.

In the old days, color imaging was accomplished by tickling phosphors with an electron gun. Surprisingly, this system produced (and continues to produce) the most lifelike images of all, which is why a small number of high-end customers still prefer CRT front projectors for home-theater applications.

That's because CRTs are capable of a wide grayscale and can show images with very low luminance levels (shadow detail) as well as very high luminance levels (highlights) in the same scene. More importantly, when a CRT is idling, it is essentially shut off. I mean really shut off, as in black and not a deep gray, as you'll see with LCD, DLP, and LCoS projectors, and AM LCD and plasma monitors.

The above statement is a scientific reason why CRT produces the most lifelike images of all display technologies, that is not an LP vs. CD argument.

Stop going into those stores and comparing CRT's to Microdisplays. Even the most avid CRT'er will tell you that microdisplays in stores like Circuit City and Best Buys are going to look better than a CRT in the bright show room floor of those stores. They purposely make CRTs look like garbage so you will purchase the more expensive microdisplay. Being an AVS member you are supposed to be aware of that game.

I'm waiting to see the microdisplay that have of all the advantages of CRT without its disadvantages, maybe the new SXRD or JVC might be it. Have you seen the new SXRD sets?

You can scientically break down the advantage that CRT have over fixed pixel displays.scientically???

kinky :eek:

Okay... arguements over. :p

Haven't heard much healthy Samsung bashing lately :D

He was talking about CRT technology in general as Sony still manufacturers them and they look really good.

What advances has LCD made? They still have poor blacks, Screen Door Effect, Silk Screen Effect etc. They are trying to address it with junk like dynamic Iris. But right now folks are using ND filters to try improve the black level on their LCD sets, if there was a real improvement in black level you would not find people using ND Filter mods on their sets.

I'm no LP vs CD person. Some audiophiles like the inaccurate sound of LP's over CD, what they take for warm sound is actually noise introduced into the signal. I don't why people use LP vs CD to compare CRT vs. Microdisplays, it is not a good comparsion. Audiophiles views are totally subjective whereas videophiles views are more objective.

See: Display technology Shoot out
http://www.corporatemedianews.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=25310-0

You can scientically break down the advantage that CRT have over fixed pixel displays.

In the old days, color imaging was accomplished by tickling phosphors with an electron gun. Surprisingly, this system produced (and continues to produce) the most lifelike images of all, which is why a small number of high-end customers still prefer CRT front projectors for home-theater applications.

That's because CRTs are capable of a wide grayscale and can show images with very low luminance levels (shadow detail) as well as very high luminance levels (highlights) in the same scene. More importantly, when a CRT is idling, it is essentially shut off. I mean really shut off, as in black and not a deep gray, as you'll see with LCD, DLP, and LCoS projectors, and AM LCD and plasma monitors.

Stop going into those stores and comparing CRT's to Microdisplays. Even the most avid CRT'er will tell you that microdisplays in stores like Circuit City and Best Buys are going to look better than a CRT in the bright show room floor of those stores. They purposely make CRTs look like garbage so you will purchase the more expensive microdisplay. Being an AVS member you are supposed to be aware of that game.

Why do you guys keep arguing about this? And why are you in this forum. Like I said, if you prefer CRT then buy one. I find your comment ridiculous that stores show CRT's in bright rooms to make them 'look like garbage'. Some stores have dark showrooms, and guess what, they still look pretty poor to me. The sales of CRT models are sinking like the Titanic, in spite of them being cheaper. I think thre is a reason for that...they are overall inferior technology at this point. I do agree that LCD projection, and DLP are far from perfect also. But for most people, the newer technologies trump CRT projection overall. Maybe the SXRD will blow ALL the other RPTV's out of the water...and maybe it won't. We will soon know.

Haven't heard much healthy Samsung bashing lately :DThat cheap crap sucks!



Better? :p

Why do you guys keep arguing about this? And why are you in this forum. Like I said, if you prefer CRT then buy one. I find your comment ridiculous that stores show CRT's in bright rooms to make them 'look like garbage'. Some stores have dark showrooms, and guess what, they still look pretty poor to me. The sales of CRT models are sinking like the Titanic, in spite of them being cheaper. I think thre is a reason for that...they are overall inferior technology at this point. I do agree that LCD projection, and DLP are far from perfect also. But for most people, the newer technologies trump CRT projection overall. Maybe the SXRD will blow ALL the other RPTV's out of the water...and maybe it won't. We will soon know.

Name me a store with dark rooms? Also, name me a store that demo microdisplays with dark content? Have you ever noticed when you go into those stores they always have HD sports or some bright nature shows. Why are they so afraid to demo microdisplays with dark content?


Is it because they know that most unlearned consumers are attracted to the brightest displays?

Or is it because they know that microdisplay don't do well with that type of content?

Have you ever been advised by any of these stores about ISF calibration?

You say you agree that microdisplays are not perfect, well what are their imperfections? Please explain.

Name me a store with dark rooms? Also, name me a store that demo microdisplays with dark content? Have you ever noticed when you go into those stores they always have HD sports or some bright nature shows. Why are they so afraid to demo microdisplays with dark content?


Is it because they know that most unlearned consumers are attracted to the brightest displays?

Or is it because they know that microdisplay don't do well with that type of content?

Have you ever been advised by any of these stores about ISF calibration?

You say you agree that microdisplays are not perfect, well what are their imperfections? Please explain.

I am so OVER this conversation! You know full well what the pros, and cons are of various types of TV's. As for imperfection, CRT's have their full share of issues also. NO TYPE of TV is PERFECT! This ends the conversation for me. As I have told you several times, if you like CRT so much...THEN GO BUY ONE!! :eek:

I notice Crutchfield says the tv has 2-tuner PIP. I take this to mean that the set has 2 tuners in it, yet the way i read the manual, it has one tuner and uses another tuner from an attached dvd recorder, vcr, etc. Which is correct?

Also, if i get a DVR from my cable company, does that have a tuner that can be used as the second tuner for PIP if i need one?

Finally, should i bother to hook up a vcr to the set to play the few vhs pre-recorded tapes i have that have not come out in dvd? I ask this because if the picture is too bad, i wont want to watch it. Would the picture be worse than regular SD tv, and what if i just watched it in 4:3 format without stretching it, that would keep it smaller and hopefully make it look not quite so bad as if it were stretched to the full size of the 60" screen.

Also, do any of you with 16:9 screens now look at SD in the 4:3 format without stretching to keep it smaller to look a little better?

OK Guys I'm sorry but this thread is once again getting to the point of

"I WANT A PONY!"

I am so OVER this conversation! You know full well what the pros, and cons are of various types of TV's. As for imperfection, CRT's have their full share of issues also. NO TYPE of TV is PERFECT! This ends the conversation for me. As I have told you several times, if you like CRT so much...THEN GO BUY ONE!! :eek:


I'm going to ask you again, what are some of the imperfections of microdisplays?

I have a CRT, I've owned a microdisplay. I also own a LCD flat panel. I would own a microdisplay again if find one with all the advantages of CRT, maybe its the SXRD or JVC sets.

There are several threads on the go right now in which Auditor55 is on the same crusade. He's over in at least one other thread telling Sony A10/A20 owners how bad their TVs are relative to CRTs. Seems unlikely to me that he'll convince RP-LCD and DLP owners, and potential SXRD owners here, to go with CRT TVs.

So, anyway, what are we going to discuss next to kill time until tomorrow? We've covered UPS, stands, SSE/SDE, screens, dumbo ear speakers to name but a few.

I wouldn't exist if there wasn't so much CRT bashing and misinformation in that thread you speak of. I'm not trying to convince anyone to go with CRT or over microdisplays, I know too many of you view CRT's as your grand daddy's favorite technology. But don't try to convince video experts and videophiles that microdisplays are better because their new.

OK, to change the subject. Where can I go and see the new SXRD sets? I'm interested in seeing them. How soon will they be available?

The answer to that question seems to depend on where you are located. Your best bet is to call local dealers and see when they expect to have models in-stock. That is what I would do, anyway.

Every new product that is this hyped up always ends up having a disappointment once it is actually seen. But I believe Sony already got the disappointment out of the way with the Dumbo ears, so what people will see tomorrow will be an otherwise perfect product :)

Some audiophiles like the inaccurate sound of LP's over CD, what they take for warm sound is actually noise introduced into the signal.


Not that this is particularly germane to the overall thread, but your assertion here is not correct, although widely espoused by those selling CD over the years. While it is true that CDs have less noise than LPs, and greater dynamic range as well, the process of digital CD mastering includes excessively coarse data decimation and also packing into a digital format that is largely inadequate for high fidelity. A 44khz sample frequency is just sufficient to prevent aliasing of analog high frequency primary signal and 1st order harmonics, but that doesn't mean that it reproduces the high frequencies in a high fidelity manner - it simply means that it doesn't distort them into false lower frequencies through aliasing. Higher order harmonics, if any, are filtered off to prevent their being aliased into incorrect lower frequencies. 16 bit resolution of the data points is also now recognized as inadequate for high fidelity. The loss of harmonics, the inadequacy of high frequency wave form and the effects of the initial data decimation all contribute to hearable data loss which results in the characteristically harsh sound of CDs. It is the lack of this data loss when playing back LPs on good audio systems that is most responsible for the "warm sound".

This is why DVD Audio was created with higher sample frequencies and bit resolution, although not high enough for Sony - SACD is a weird beast that works extremely well but is not very intuitive to understand, as it is based on advanced signal theory. In the oil industry we were using the same type of 1-bit recording for high resolution geophysical data collection almost 20 years before Sony adapted largely the same process to audio reproduction. One side effect of SACD is that it requires significantly better data decimation than is done in the standard CD process and this generally results in a CD track on a hybrid SACD that sounds quite a bit better than the conventionally mastered CD, although still not typically as warm as LP. The SACD track is much better than either CD track or DVD Audio, with less or no data loss and is generally considered to be high fidelity and "warm sounding".

By the way, I own about 400 CDs and about 80 old LPs and only a couple of DVD Audio and SACDs and have not listened to an LP in 10 years or so, so I am not really an analog audiophile.

Also, do any of you with 16:9 screens now look at SD in the 4:3 format without stretching to keep it smaller to look a little better?

I always watch 4:3 in the original format. I don't like a "stretched" appearance. The advantage of the new displays (except plasma) is that you can do it without fear of burn-in.

I've ordered a new SXRD after having a Mits RPTV for around 4 years. We're retired and the TV is on standard definition stations during most of the day. I had no burn-in only because the TV was properly calibrated and I have an outboard video processor which very slowly but constantly moved the upgraded 4:3 image around the 16:9 screen.

Not that this is particularly germane to the overall thread...

LOL
That’s a good one.


Now can we please get back to the topic—Ponies-- I think it was.

OK Guys I'm sorry but this thread is once again getting to the point of

"I WANT A PONY!"Ponies suck!

I want an Okapi (http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/pix/sdz2/Okapi.html). They do better in low light levels.

Ponies suck!

I want an Okapi (http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/pix/sdz2/Okapi.html). They do better in low light levels.

:D After looking at that picture, I think we can lose the term “Dumbo Ears” and switch to “Okapi Ears”. Sounds more chic.

Okapi's are sweet! Bring one to CEDIA and maybe Sony will let you take the SXRD home :D

Sony already got the disappointment out of the way with the Dumbo ears, so what people will see tomorrow will be an otherwise perfect product :)

theres no such thing...

at least not on pubilc internet forums :D

The new SXRD sets are claiming up 10k to 1 CR ratios which is more the QUalia sets. How do they measure CR and does anyone think this number is correct. Plasma has very good black and the CR is only 3k to 1. Sammy is claiming 10k to 1 but I don't see much of an improvement in there new sets??

The new SXRD sets are claiming up 10k to 1 CR ratios which is more the QUalia sets. How do they measure CR and does anyone think this number is correct. Plasma has very good black and the CR is only 3k to 1. Sammy is claiming 10k to 1 but I don't see much of an improvement in there new sets??

They all grossly inflate CR as well as other specs. If you were to see an independent test of a Samsung (or any other DLP) that's claiming a 10K CR, i'd be very surprised if it was close to even 3K, so take these Sony CR claims with a grain of salt also.

My wife calls them "Rumbold" ears. Any aging Brits or fans of Britcoms should know why.

:)

Jon.

...bash, bash, bash...They (LCD RPTV) still have poor blacks, Screen Door Effect, Silk Screen Effect etc. They are trying to address it with junk like dynamic Iris....bash, bash, bash...I own a CRT (SHOCKING! :eek: )...bash, bash, bash...they know that microdisplay don't do well with that type of content...Where can I go and see the new SXRD sets? I'm interested in seeing them. How soon will they be available?
Wow...that was just too damn fascinating to read...nice posting! :rolleyes:

Jason

I don't believe the 10k:1 can be displayed on the screen at one time. One end of the scale is the darkest black the chip can generate with the iris closed all the way. At the other end of the scale is the whitest white with the iris open all the way. Since the currently known laws of time and space can place the single iris in only one position at a point in time you are never going to see 10k:1 on the screen at any single moment.

As video playback spans time you could see the 10k:1 ratio over a brief amount of time.

Make sense?

Make sense?
Uhhhh...well...uhhhh...I suppose so...but you kinda lost me on that space/time thingy! :D

Jason

My wife calls them "Rumbold" ears. Any aging Brits or fans of Britcoms should know why.

"Are You Being Served"

Do I win the cookie? :D

Our local PBS has two shows every Saturday night.

Originally Posted by AkaStp

So, anyway, what are we going to discuss next to kill time until tomorrow?

Inspired by the posts of Auditor55 and others on this board, I propose we have display technology shoot-off. Each entry will describe the display they own (or wish to own) in terms as near to orgasmic as possible. I submit the following:

My hands trembled in anticipation as I fingered the remote of my Sony 25” XBR. She was only seventeen. Was I about to break the law? I was willing to risk the consequences. Would I be capable of turning on such a beauty as this? She, in all her ebony magnificence, resting on the built-in cabinetry only feet from me. She stared back with an expression of …what…bewilderment…anticipation? It was hard to tell from her blank expression. I grasped her cute little removable ears and gently spread them wide. It pleased me to notice her sweet spot enlarge! She began to brighten. Had my attempts to turn her on been successful? Yes!!! Her face now exuded a magnificent glow that suffused the room. I caressed the ramps of her grayscale. She responded wildly. O IRE one moment -100 the next - like some uncontrollable vixen!! And yet, was that a degree of charming shyness I detected? I looked closer. Indeed…there it was…a hint of red push in her cheeks. Her colors seemed to run the gamut, like a faun dancing inside the CIE colorspace. I felt my antenna grow turgid with OTA content. I knew a SXRD release would be all that would relieve my tumescent state of anticipation. I tried to think of the 1995 World Series, but to no avail. “Oh CEDIA…I’m coming…I’m coming!!!” :eek:

Oh that's just great, now I have to go lookup info on the '95 WS.

Oh my God! TV Tyro needs to win a prize...maybe a couple sessions with a therapist?!? :D:D:D

Frickin' hilarious!

Jason

... as I fingered...
...in all her ebony magnificence, .. .
...uncontrollable vixen!! .. .
...a faun dancing ...
...grow turgid ...
... tumescent state of anticipation....


:o words I never expected to see in AVS :eek:

:D
Give him the cookie!

It looks like I still have 24 hours to get this slightly off topic question in - what stand are you guys buying for the SXRD's?

My deal with my wife was that she can pick the stand (I have veto power to make sure there's room for electronics and center channel).

So far the only stand for the SXRD 60" that is enough like "real furniture" to her is the Diamond Case Theatre Tech 400. Looks great but is close to 3k with tax and shipping...

It looks like I still have 24 hours to get this slightly off topic question in - what stand are you guys buying for the SXRD's?

My deal with my wife was that she can pick the stand (I have veto power to make sure there's room for electronics and center channel).

So far the only stand for the SXRD 60" that is enough like "real furniture" to her is the Diamond Case Theatre Tech 400. Looks great but is close to 3k with tax and shipping...

I believe some Q006 owners are using this stand; damned pricey in relation to the cost of the TV! :eek:

It looks like I still have 24 hours to get this slightly off topic question in - what stand are you guys buying for the SXRD's?

My deal with my wife was that she can pick the stand (I have veto power to make sure there's room for electronics and center channel).

So far the only stand for the SXRD 60" that is enough like "real furniture" to her is the Diamond Case Theatre Tech 400. Looks great but is close to 3k with tax and shipping...

Check out the Horizons by Ethan Allen 68" Media Cabinet. It looks nice, is the right size for the 60 inch SXRD, and costs about a grand.

Oh that's just great, now I have to go lookup info on the '95 WS. :D :D :D

For that kind of money, you should seriously consider having a cabinet custom made...wood species that you like, design style, custom width/height, space for components/CC, etc. Even with a pricey wood like Brazilian Cherry or Birdseye Maple, you'd be looking at half the cost of that stand. The only drawback is waiting (maybe only a couple to a few weeks) for the stand, but it might be worth investigating. I'm finishing up my own stand right now, just in time for the new TV! :D

Jason

Name me a store with dark rooms?
Gramaphone. Tweeters (most of their sets are in the bright middle area, but both stores in my area have several rooms off to the sides that can be darkened). Big Screen Store. Best Buy (there is one near me that has about 5 rooms in one corner that can be adjusted as bright or dark as you want; also, another one nearby has most of it's big screen TVs in a darker section of the store).

Also, name me a store that demo microdisplays with dark content? Have you ever noticed when you go into those stores they always have HD sports or some bright nature shows. Why are they so afraid to demo microdisplays with dark content?

Gramaphone. Tweeters. Big Screen Store. Circuit City. I've seen everything from HDNet movies, various DVDs, to crappy OTA SD broadcast in all these stores at various times. Generally, the seem to be showing whatever's available at the time over their OTA or satellite HD feeds. The only store with a demo loop that I've seen is Best Buy. The other stores usually seem to choose what to display based on whatever the sales guys working that day want to watch the most.

...I'm finishing up my own stand right now, just in time for the new TV! :D

Jason

Any chance you could post your plans? I'm thinking of putting together a stand for my (hopefully) soon-to-be-acquired 50" SXRD.

CEDIA is arriving just in time, this thread is getting all Lord of the Flies. If these SXRDs don't arrive soon, we'll all be running around in animal skins and drinking each others blood.

I am getting the 60" SXRD and am looking at a cabnet from Salamander Designs at

http://www.salamanderdesigns.com/

The unit I am looking at is 66" wide, and stores components underneath. You can kinda design your own cabnet.....

Check out the Horizons by Ethan Allen 68" Media Cabinet. It looks nice, is the right size for the 60 inch SXRD, and costs about a grand.

That unit looks good but no place for the center channel... I plan to get the Totem Rainmaker center which is 23.7" wide...

For that kind of money, you should seriously consider having a cabinet custom made...wood species that you like, design style, custom width/height, space for components/CC, etc. Even with a pricey wood like Brazilian Cherry or Birdseye Maple, you'd be looking at half the cost of that stand. The only drawback is waiting (maybe only a couple to a few weeks) for the stand, but it might be worth investigating. I'm finishing up my own stand right now, just in time for the new TV! :D

Jason

Good idea.

Do you have a pic of yours?

Even from Diamond Case, I'm looking at 4-8 weeks delivery.

And 3 grand is killing me. Does she know the upgraded Receiver I could get with that kinda coin???

I am getting the 60" SXRD and am looking at a cabnet from Salamander Designs at

http://www.salamanderdesigns.com/

The unit I am looking at is 66" wide, and stores components underneath. You can kinda design your own cabnet.....

I LOVE the Salamanders (though they'll still set you back 2k when all's said and done) but the wifey won't go for anything metallic. Women.

That unit looks good but no place for the center channel... I plan to get the Totem Rainmaker center which is 23.7" wide...
You can configure the Salamander units with an open space in the center. That is where I am planning to put my center channel...

Opps you were talking about the Ethan Allen....

Good news for those that can't fit the dumbo ears into their space. JVC LCoS set have 3 stage optical iris to improve black levels and a nice MSRP advantage, considering JVC streets for 10-20% less then MSRP.

Availability and pricing for JVC’s DesignerPro televisions are:


Model Approximate
Retail Price
Available
HD-56FH96 $4,000 October 2005
HD-61FH96 $4,500 October 2005
HD-70FH96 $6,000 October 2005

Read about it here:
http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp?item=470&pageID=1

Interesting information on UHP lamps (http://www.ercservice.com/lamps/philips/PhilipsUHPLamps.html) ...

I LOVE the Salamanders (though they'll still set you back 2k when all's said and done) but the wifey won't go for anything metallic. Women.

I have the Salamander and am very happy with it. I got the Walnut with the black metal and you would be hard pressed to say it looks metallic.

It is very adjustable and very well made. It is not cheap. However, for me, it was by far the best option and I figure I'll have it for a very long time so I did not mind spending the money.

That unit looks good but no place for the center channel... I plan to get the Totem Rainmaker center which is 23.7" wide...

Always something isn't it? LOL You might be able to change the center door wood panel on the Ethan Allen to a cloth one made yourself. The thing comes with both glass and wood door panels, but not a cloth one...UGH.. :)

Any chance you could post your plans?
I'm not working off any plans...just working out of my head (and out of my mind). It's a relatively simple design, though. The top is 24" deep and 60" wide, jointed cherry, there's a mortise-and-tenon skirting board that runs across the front and two sides, I've got a total of 6 legs, 4 across the front and 2 at each rear corner made of 2" square cherry, and a lower shelf that's notched into the legs that will hold the CC and other miscellaneous debris. I decided to use 4 legs across the front because of the relatively small pedestal base of the SXRD and I was afraid of the top bowing/flexing with the weight. I'll upload a pic when it's done, but it'll look a lot like the coffee table that I built (in the same room) based on a Harden design.

Jason

My wife calls them "Rumbold" ears. Any aging Brits or fans of Britcoms should know why.

Is that because the set is saying:

Are You Being Heard?

Good news for those that can't fit the dumbo ears into their space. JVC LCoS set have 3 stage optical iris to improve black levels and a nice MSRP advantage, considering JVC streets for 10-20% less then MSRP.

Availability and pricing for JVC’s DesignerPro televisions are:


Model Approximate
Retail Price
Available
HD-56FH96 $4,000 October 2005
HD-61FH96 $4,500 October 2005
HD-70FH96 $6,000 October 2005

Read about it here:
http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp?item=470&pageID=1

Info says: "2 HDMI with HDCP". That's bad, right? Means that the network can
scramble the picture?

I have the Salamander and am very happy with it. I got the Walnut with the black metal and you would be hard pressed to say it looks metallic.

It is very adjustable and very well made. It is not cheap. However, for me, it was by far the best option and I figure I'll have it for a very long time so I did not mind spending the money.

I'll second the Salamander furniture. I've had my A/V rack for 5 years now and it is VERY well made and well worth the cost. Am I to say Salamander furniture is reasonably priced? No, it's expensive. But it's great stuff, and as Lex mentions, it's something you would hopefully keep for a long time.

"16 bit resolution of the data points is also now recognized as inadequate for high fidelity."


Say's who and you can PM me if you would like. 16/44khz is considered the threshold of human hearing. Please read and do the test your self:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/BitsTest.html

Do you have a pic of yours?Yeah, I'll post it in a couple of days (maybe Sunday?).

Even from Diamond Case, I'm looking at 4-8 weeks delivery.A good furniture wright should be able to knock out something in 2-6 weeks, depending on their workload. I could probably have made our stand in its entirety in about a week and a half if I could have worked on it every day.

And 3 grand is killing me. Does she know the upgraded Receiver I could get with that kinda coin???Now you're talkin'! :D Con her with the savings and put it towards some new gear! Remind her that it's custom!

Jason

Info says: "2 HDMI with HDCP". That's bad, right? Means that the network can
scramble the picture?

No.

Here is a explaination of HDCP...

Short for high-bandwidth digital-content protection, a specification developed by Intel for protecting digital entertainment content that uses the DVI interface. HDCP encrypts the transmission of digital content between the video source, or transmitter -- such as a computer, DVD player or set-top box -- and the digital display, or receiver -- such as a monitor, television or projector. HDCP is not designed to prevent copying or recording of digital content but to protect the integrity of content as it is being transmitted.

Info says: "2 HDMI with HDCP". That's bad, right? Means that the network can
scramble the picture?
It may be bad (depending on whether you are a content provider or someone who wants to record the content), but sources (STBs etc) will not talk to the TV via DVI/HDMI without it. The content providers will not allow their content played over DVI/HDMI without. The network (cable, satellite) encrypts the content regardless for most modern content. There are exceptions to this, but most content of interest is encrypted when transmitted.

No.

Here is a explaination of HDCP...

... HDCP is not designed to prevent copying or recording of digital content but to protect the integrity of content as it is being transmitted.
That is marketing double-talk. The content providers use it to prevent "unauthorized" recording or copying. HDCP does not improve or degrade the "integrity" of the content except to keep the content from being transmitted "in the clear" between the STB and the TV. It is all about protecting the content owner's content from unauthorized use (such as recording exact copies in the clear that can be reproduced by anyone).

"16 bit resolution of the data points is also now recognized as inadequate for high fidelity."


Say's who and you can PM me if you would like. 16/44khz is considered the threshold of human hearing. Please read and do the test your self:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/BitsTest.html

There is more to sound than just audible frequencies. A great deal of hearing is subjective, it varies from person to person. Just as some people can see an HDTV, and it doesn't really dazzle them. 16 bit audio is just at or near the noise floor for human hearing. Widening to 24 bits pushes this floor well beyond. The sampling rate of 44khz can effectively record sound up to 22khz (nyquist-shannon sampling theory), which is above the audible range of most humans. The problem is that harmonics and resonance can be generated by sounds that exceed the audible range of human hearing. Analog sources have been measured producing audio up into the 50khz range, which would technically require 100khz or greater sampling to reproduce. Indeed, an excellent pair of speakers can produce sounds well above the audible range of hearing.

Furthermore, no matter how high the sampling rate, or slicing, of the original audio, it is still just a digital approximation of sound. If you were to take a snapshot of digital audio and dig down into the waveform, it ultimately is just a saw wave, a series of off and on 1s and 0s that approximately mimic what linear, analog waveforms look like. Another explanation: You need to draw a line between two points on a graph. In the analog world, you plot straight from a to b. In the digital world, you have to stair step over and up, off and on, to reach b from a. The smaller the grid-squares, the higher the sampling rate. But, no matter how often the sound is sliced in one second, it can not mathematically ever be the same as analog.

Because of this, some would argue, no matter how high digital audio is sampled, it will never sound the same. I disagree. I think that if the audio is sampled high enough, even the staunchest audiophile can ultimately be pacified. But, I also do not believe that 16/44khz is the magic number that will do the trick. 16/44 is the bare minimum that they could get away with at the time. It was a compromise between audio quality and storage limitations of the time, namely CD media.

Good news for those that can't fit the dumbo ears into their space. JVC LCoS set have 3 stage optical iris to improve black levels and a nice MSRP advantage, considering JVC streets for 10-20% less then MSRP.

Availability and pricing for JVC’s DesignerPro televisions are:


Model Approximate
Retail Price
Available
HD-56FH96 $4,000 October 2005
HD-61FH96 $4,500 October 2005
HD-70FH96 $6,000 October 2005

Read about it here:
http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp?item=470&pageID=1


Excellent news Sycore,

Guess they can’t hide an Iris at CEDIA, I wonder if they will surprise us with the 1080p inputs too or will they wait …..

This is going to be great, Let the Battle Begin !

I want to like JVC sets and love a lot obout them but in the end there are not engineered very well and have terrible QC issues. Start reading the forums.

LOL
That’s a good one.


Now can we please get back to the topic—Ponies-- I think it was.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

I want to like JVC sets and love a lot obout them but in the end there are not engineered very well and have terrible QC issues. Start reading the forums.

LOL, you didn't even know what LCoS was 2 weeks ago and know you are telling me to read the forums. This is a new 1080p chip not the old 720p they have been selling. Plus it is a whole new chassis, with complete different electronics, and scaler inside. Don't forget JVC has been mass producing LCoS set longer then anyone and had a LCoS set out way back in 98. Sony has made great improvement with their LCoS design, but don't discount JVC experience and expertise in LCoS design until you see the set. My guess based off the CES demo and subsequent redesign is that JVC has the better chip on paper and all other things being equal, would have a slightly better PQ. The previous JVC LCoS lens and scaler has been scraped, but who knows if they what they replaced it with is any better. It will be hard to match the quality of the sony electronic and scaler if it is anything like the 006. I guess we will all know tomorrow, as the reports start flowing in, but I would still wait to compare them with my own eyes because as they say opinions are like azzholes, every ones got one and they are full of shizit.

...


but I would still wait to compare them with my own eyes because as they say opinions are like azzholes, every ones got one and they are full of shizit.

LOL

To quote Sycore:

"The previous JVC LCoS lens and scaler has been scraped, but who knows if they what they replaced it with is any better."

I think the reality to all the 1080p LCOS sets is that they all need to get a good year of production under their belt to work out their bugs. Unfortunately, it seems that JVC needs more than Sony. In two or 3 years, they can very well be even with Sony, but I wouldn't expect it in the first year. Hell, lens choice couldn't have been that difficult a decision or was it a mistake caused by trying to keep manufacturing cost down.

Crutchfield has revised the Sony KDS-R60XBR1 (Item #158SR60XBR) (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-IWS25nZot5o/cgi-bin/Prodview.asp?readmore=true&g=147350&id=essential_info&i=158SR60XBR) and KDS-R50XBR1 (Item #158SR50XBR) (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-9W2ko2sDpzo/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=147350&I=158SR50XBR) expected availability dates from 9/19 to 9/30.

I don't know if the old date holds for orders that have been placed already and the new dates are for orders placed today. Maybe westa can check on his order status.

I'll find out tomorrow if mine made it's 9/9 date.

"16 bit resolution of the data points is also now recognized as inadequate for high fidelity."


Say's who and you can PM me if you would like. 16/44khz is considered the threshold of human hearing. Please read and do the test your self:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/BitsTest.html

c.kingsley beat me to part of it... yes you want to be well beyond the threshhold of bit and sample rate. In fact the Nyquist frequency only guarantees that there is no aliasing of the signal at the frequency limit, but that does not guarantee fidelity of the signal's representation. The sinusoid at the Nyquist limit frequency is very grossly represented by 2 samples per cycle, 1 peak and 1 trough. As your frequencies move lower the fidelity increases but at 5,500 hz you are getting down into common tone range but are still only at 8 samples per cycle - still pretty coarse.

With respect to bit depth...
Guess I should have said "was recognized a while ago" rather than "now recognized" but I was in a hurry. As for say's who: well how about the designers and users of DVD Audio or if you want to quibble about the other changes in DVD Audio being responsible for the sound quality improvement then how about the creators and users of HDCD at Pacific Microsonics, now owned by Microsoft: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/hdcd/hdcdabout.aspx
which essentially improves CD sound by enabling 20 bits encoding within the existing CD standard.

As for the test, I didn't bother - I checked some of the samples referenced at http://www.pcavtech.com/test_data/ and it seems to me that the 24 bit sample sounds significantly less flat than the 16 bit sample - enough so that I would question whether or not the samples were correctly created; in other words the 24 bit sample sounded better by comparison than I expected it to. Admittedly I am not doing a blind test, and for that matter I am also quite deaf to higher frequencies anyways. YMMV due to your ears, your sound card, your speakers, your OS and your playback software. I don't think the test is that meaningful because of these different factors with each individual. For that matter I don't particularly care whether or not I can hear the difference now. I may be able to hear the difference in the future with different equipment or better ears (go nanites go :)), so why not have as much headroom as possible.

I think it was generally recognized that CDs were not that great musically and HDCD, DVD Audio and SACD were some of the responses to that, admittedly not all that well marketed responses. I am more into DVDs than audio these days and what I care more about is that audio on DVD Video is typically even worse than CD audio due to compression and low bit rate necessitated by space limitations and multiple channels - hopefully DD+ and DTS-HD on HD/BR DVDs will address this sufficiently.

This has gotten pretty far off thread and I would rather not interrupt the flow of the thread anymore, nor my evening for that matter so let's try not to go much further with this please. There should be more than enough on-topic grist for the mill to keep everyone happy.

I want to like JVC sets and love a lot obout them but in the end there are not engineered very well and have terrible QC issues. Start reading the forums.

RE: I want to love this set but it's so terrible? :rolleyes:

I have read all the SXRD and JVC Z-Gx86 threads as well as reviewed whats available in person (SXRD/D-ILA) and I have narrowed it down to one of these two sets.

In fact I even keep an eye on the “Owners of the JVC D-ila Take a Survey” thread that you yourself started on Sept. 3rd.

Maybe you might find it easier to realize your love for the JVC if you considered the positive things people have said about them instead of the negative.

It's great knowing that JVC has closed the gap on the Brightness issue of the D-ILA as the closer competition drives manufacturers to include better features for us all.

If both these sets end up having 1080p inputs it will be a much tougher decision for me than it is now.

I don't know if the old date holds for orders that have been placed already and the new dates are for orders placed today. Maybe westa can check on his order status.

I just checked my order status and it's still an ETA of 9/19/2005 - however, they could've updated the listing and not the order status and it's too late to call. I'll call to confirm tomorrow and post the result to determine if it's just a delay on new orders as they should have significant back order waiting list by now. One can hope it's only for newly placed orders. :D

I just checked my order status and it's still an ETA of 9/19/2005 - however, they could've updated the listing and not the order status and it's too late to call. I'll call to confirm tomorrow and post the result to determine if it's just a delay on new orders as they should have significant back order waiting list by now. One can hope it's only for newly placed orders. :DI agree. Hopefully it's just that the first "batch" has sold out.

Sycore: You can insult me but it still doesn't hide the following facts about JVC: I live in a metro area in New York. Probably one of the most affluent aras in the United States and a maven for HD sales. Two of the Best Buy stores in my area are not ordering any more JVC sets, Sears does not sell the D-ila line, Circuit City does not handle JVC and PC Richards has limited quanity. Granted JVC has developed several gerat projectors but their HD sets are not up to the same standard, IMHO. I'm on several JVC forums and I read countless posts concerning the D-ila sets and lack of service in some cases (actual I read mixed comments on this). Sony has a proven design in the Qualia set which has garnered rave reviews and accolades from the media. Sony has a lot at stake in this set so I think they will execute. JVC has had several incarnations of their LCOS sets and still have not worked out the bugs or created a PQ that rivals LCD or even DLP. JVC sets (from my observations) have problems with macro blocking with motion and poor black levels. The one thing that concerns me the most is black crush. There is very poor detail and noise in dark scenes on the current D-ila sets. There is a reason that you can get a 70" LCOS set from them delivered for under 4k and that there 61" sets are discounted so heavily. NO ONE WANTS THEM. I've owned JVC in the past and have never had problems to be fair but they need to use higher quiality parts in their sets. Now that being said it's possible that they went back to the drawig board and did a complete re-design that blows us all away. This would be smart since there are several other companies coming out with LCOS designs. Samsung was the first to mass market a DLP set and are very successful because of that. JVC had a golden opportunity to carve out a niche for their D-ila sets but failed to execute. Once you get a reputation it's hard to reverse momentum. Oh yeah the fact that JVC was sending out letters warning their patrons that their set may catch on fire and that they were sending out sets with bad light engines didn't help their reputation either. So go buy one and let us know if they worked all this out. For me I'll gamble on Sony who currently has the best sets out and will most likely improve upon their current crop of sets.

To quote Sycore:

"The previous JVC LCoS lens and scaler has been scraped, but who knows if they what they replaced it with is any better."

I think the reality to all the 1080p LCOS sets is that they all need to get a good year of production under their belt to work out their bugs. Unfortunately, it seems that JVC needs more than Sony. In two or 3 years, they can very well be even with Sony, but I wouldn't expect it in the first year. Hell, lens choice couldn't have been that difficult a decision or was it a mistake caused by trying to keep manufacturing cost down.

Lens Choice: Maybe due to the increased resolution of the newer 1080p sets more than a cost factor.

It's funny how few are willing to admit that the 1080p JVC sets are the 3rd generation/production of RP-LCOS based sets for JVC. JVC CLEARLY has more production experience with the RP-LCOS technology.

Not to say that Sony can't come out with a better product to start with though.

Can hardly wait for fresh info from CEDIA.

Crutchfield has revised the Sony KDS-R60XBR1 (Item #158SR60XBR) (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-IWS25nZot5o/cgi-bin/Prodview.asp?readmore=true&g=147350&id=essential_info&i=158SR60XBR) and KDS-R50XBR1 (Item #158SR50XBR) (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-9W2ko2sDpzo/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=147350&I=158SR50XBR) expected availability dates from 9/19 to 9/30.

I don't know if the old date holds for orders that have been placed already and the new dates are for orders placed today. Maybe westa can check on his order status.

I'll find out tomorrow if mine made it's 9/9 date.

Yes, seems to fit with what i've heard so far. I posted a few days ago that they would not be arriving in warehouses on the East Coast until September 27th. I'm still under the impression that i can go pick one up as early as the 28th or 29th, but haven't spoken to the people involved in the Sony distribution chain in a couple of days. Maybe i'll give them a call tomorrow or Monday just to check that the 9/27 arrival date is still intact. I'll be interested to see if anyone actually gets one before then. I was told they would probably arrive on the East Coast or Midwest first. Makes sense, i guess, coming from Pittsburgh...

Sycore: You can insult me but it still doesn't hide the following facts about JVC: I live in a metro area in New York. Probably one of the most affluent aras in the united states and a maven for HD sales. Two of the Best Buy stores in my area are not ordering any more JVC sets, Sears does not sell the D-ila line, Circuit City does not handle JVC and PC Richards has limited quanity. Granted JVC has developed several gerat projectors but their HD sets are not up to the same standard, IMHO. I'm on several JVC forums and I read countless posts concerning the D-ila sets and lack of service in some cases (actual I read mixed comments on this). Sony has a proven design in the Qualia set which has garnered rave reviews and accolades from the media. Sony has a lot at stake in this set so I think they will execute. JVC has had several incarnations of their LYCOS sets and still have not worked out the bugs or created a PQ that rivals LCD or even DLP. JVC sets (from my observations) have problems with macro blocking with motion and poor black levels. The one thing that concerns me the most is black crush. There is very poor detail and noise in bdark scenes on the current D-ila sets. There is a reason that you can get a 70" LYCOS set from them delivered for under 4k and that there 61" sets are discounted so heavily. NO ONE WANTS THEM. I've owned JVC in the past and have never had problems to be fair but they need to use higher quiality parts in their sets. Now that being said it's possible that they went back to the drawig board and did a complete re-design that blows us all away. This would be smart since there are several other companies coming out with LYCOS designs. Samsung was the first to mass, market a DLP set and are very successful because of that. JVC had a golden opportunity to carve out a niche for their D-ila sets but failed to execute. Once you get a reputation it's hard to reverse momentum. Oh yeah the fact that JVC was sending out letters warning their patrons that their set may catch on fire and that they were sending out sets with bad light engines didn't hlpe thier reputation either. SO go buy one and let us know if they worked all this out. For me I'll gamble on Sony who currently have the best sets out and will most likely improve upon their current crop of sets.

ALL JVC DILA-ILA RPs have sucked big time for quality, black levels, and constrast.
If you like watching sports during the day and can't control the lighting and don't
mind fire hazard recalls then this set is for you.

Sure, they "might" come out with a better set that "might" compete with Sony
but I wouldn't bet on it. My money is riding on the Sony SXRDs...

Lens Choice: Maybe due to the increased resolution of the newer 1080p sets more than a cost factor.

It's funny how few are willing to admit that the 1080p JVC sets are the 3rd generation/production of RP-LCOS based sets for JVC. JVC CLEARLY has more production experience with the RP-LCOS technology.

Not to say that Sony can't come out with a better product to start with though.

Can hardly wait for fresh info from CEDIA.

I think the JVC bashers will be very disappointed. The Demo 1080P at the CES was CLEARLY the best display there except for the Q, and some thought it was pretty close to the Q. Now the production model seems to have a newer, more advanced chip. newer, better electronics, and a better descaler/deinterlacer, better CR, new variable iris, etc. Hard to believe at worst it's not going to be at least the 2nd best of the new 1080P displays coming this year and may even rival the SXRD's for top spot. As far as QC, the new 2005 model JVC 720P's have been virtually trouble-free. They've had excellent reliability. Anyway, it won't be long know. We should get some idea what all these displays are about coming out of CEDIA...

I think the JVC bashers will be very disappointed. The Demo 1080P at the CES was CLEARLY the best display there except for the Q, and some thought it was pretty close to the Q. Now the production model seems to have a newer, more advanced chip. newer, better electronics, and a better descaler/deinterlacer, better CR, new variable iris, etc. Hard to believe at worst it's not going to be at least the 2nd best of the new 1080P displays coming this year and may even rival the SXRD's for top spot. As far as QC, the new 2005 model JVC 720P's have been virtually trouble-free. They've had excellent reliability. Anyway, it won't be long know. We should get some idea what all these displays are about coming out of CEDIA...

I hope you are right since competition is good for all of us.

Not sure how you could tell with the feed that was being shown though...

Not to say that Sony can't come out with a better product to start with though.They've done it before. Remember the original Sony Playstation? It was Sony's first foray into the whole video game thing and they basically kicked Sega and Nintendo's butts.

They've done it before. Remember the original Sony Playstation? It was Sony's first foray into the whole video game thing and they basically kicked Sega and Nintendo's butts.

Also remember this is JVC's FIRST 1080p RP and Sony's SECOND 1080p RP.

Sony has done FAR more for LCOS in the last two years than JVC has done
in eight :-)

Also remember this is JVC's FIRST 1080p RP and Sony's SECOND 1080p RP.

Sony has done FAR more for LCOS in the last two years than JVC has done
in eight :-)


You choose not to recognize the new JVC 1080p release as being a newer generation of the JVC’s 720p D-ILA’s that have been selling for 2 years.

Do you honestly believe the production 720p LCOS models didn’t give JVC any experience for the new 1080p release?

I think you should start a survey/poll on your last statement!

Or at least add the "IMO" to clarify the fiction of it. :p

The last time I knew what I was talking about when it came to TV technology was 6 years ago, so I've been coming up to speed. My current plan is to get one of the new SXRDs when they come out -- assuming the reviews are good.

I do have two newbie questions, though:

1. Everyone's charging MSRP. Is that because this is a brand new high end product? I'm just making sure that this is what I should expect. Normally I'm used to consumer electronics being heavily discounted off of list price.

2. I will be watching a lot of TV that isn't in HD, both from DSS and DVD. Probably only a small percentage will be HD at first. I understand that some HDTVs handle this much more gracefully than others. Any reasons to expect this new XBR to be one way or the other?

Thanks,
-- Ethan

You choose not to recognize the new JVC 1080p release as being a newer generation of the JVC’s 720p D-ILA’s that have been selling for 2 years.

Do you honestly believe the production 720p LCOS models didn’t give JVC any experience for the new 1080p release?

...snip...


There really isn't any point in arguing this. We're not going to know until production models are going out to consumers how well they actually perform.

Unfortunately, to those reading these threads and are familiar with the problem of JVC with their sets burning, it is unlikely they'll want to put one into their homes to find out if JVC has learned anything in their 2 years of experience. Fortunate for JVC that the masses haven't a clue on such matters.

gazelle: I'm not a JVC basher. My observations are from looking at the set in several stores and from researching the merits of buying a JVC D-ila online. I've been scanning all the JVC D-ila forums I could find. Even if someone reports back that JVC had the best picture it will mean nothing to me because long term reliability and service are also important factors in my equation to buy a set. Now if JVC was smart they would offer a 2 year warranty. That is the only action that would inspire confidence in their sets in my eyes. Oh yeah. I don't want to talk about Tony D but he actually owned one. Did you or do you?

I think the JVC bashers will be very disappointed. The Demo 1080P at the CES was CLEARLY the best display there except for the Q, and some thought it was pretty close to the Q. Now the production model seems to have a newer, more advanced chip. newer, better electronics, and a better descaler/deinterlacer, better CR, new variable iris, etc. Hard to believe at worst it's not going to be at least the 2nd best of the new 1080P displays coming this year and may even rival the SXRD's for top spot. As far as QC, the new 2005 model JVC 720P's have been virtually trouble-free. They've had excellent reliability. Anyway, it won't be long know. We should get some idea what all these displays are about coming out of CEDIA...

I am still scared to death of anything from JVC. I have been burned again and again with their poor quality control over the years. I think their conventional tube-type TV's are ok....otherwise I, and others I know have had too many bad products to even consider them.

Today is the big day we've all been waiting for. I would venture to guess that feedback from CEDIA should start rolling in sometime this afternoon. I'm psyched! :)

tick tock tick tock

I spoke with Crutchfield. Despite the fact that I was at the very top of the pre-order list, my ETA has also been pushed back to 9/30. So, it looks as though it is on Sony's end, rather than merely allocating all of the first batch of pre-orders...I guess 1 1/2 weels more won't kill me....

Today is the big day we've all been waiting for. I would venture to guess that feedback from CEDIA should start rolling in sometime this afternoon. I'm psyched! :)

One of our local TV stations just had a live report from the Indiana Convention Center/RCA Dome downtown, site of the show. As the camera panned around, I was sitting here dreaming of a way to get inside!!

Steve

It looks like I still have 24 hours to get this slightly off topic question in - what stand are you guys buying for the SXRD's?

My deal with my wife was that she can pick the stand (I have veto power to make sure there's room for electronics and center channel).

So far the only stand for the SXRD 60" that is enough like "real furniture" to her is the Diamond Case Theatre Tech 400. Looks great but is close to 3k with tax and shipping...

Has anyone else looked at the new Monster M-Design Centra and Eleganze stands? These look very well built, have fans for cooling equipment, cable management for all the wires, sliding rear doors for easy access to components, and heavy duty casters for easily moving the 355 pound unit around. They come in gloss black as well as light and dark cherry. They are pricey ($3000-&4000) but ehy are beautiful. Anyway, it is something to think about. :cool:

There really isn't any point in arguing this. We're not going to know until production models are going out to consumers how well they actually perform.


Agreed !


Unfortunately, to those reading these threads and are familiar with the problem of JVC with their sets burning, it is unlikely they'll want to put one into their homes to find out if JVC has learned anything in their 2 years of experience. Fortunate for JVC that the masses haven't a clue on such matters.

I think you might be exaggerating the problem that was experienced but for the sake of accuracy here is the official information regarding the problem, which may have affected TV’s manufactured between May and Nov of 2004.

http://www.jvc.com/support/notification/index.jsp

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml05/05130.html

Has anyone else looked at the new Monster M-Design Centra and Eleganze stands? These look very well built, have fans for cooling equipment, cable management for all the wires, sliding rear doors for easy access to components, and heavy duty casters for easily moving the 355 pound unit around. They come in gloss black as well as light and dark cherry. They are pricey ($3000-&4000) but ehy are beautiful. Anyway, it is something to think about. :cool:

Do you have a link to these stands?

Roy

It may be bad (depending on whether you are a content provider or someone who wants to record the content), but sources (STBs etc) will not talk to the TV via DVI/HDMI without it. The content providers will not allow their content played over DVI/HDMI without. The network (cable, satellite) encrypts the content regardless for most modern content. There are exceptions to this, but most content of interest is encrypted when transmitted.

Are you saying that all OTA digital transmissions, e.g. CBS NFL football in HD,
CSI:Miami, etc. are encrypted (scambled) by the STB on the HDMI/DVI output, and
HDCP decrypts/unscambles the signal? Is this on a device by device basis,
or are all STB/HDTV DVRs/tuners doing this currently? What about add-in cards
for PC's such as Fusion and MyHD? The Sony XSRD doesn't claim HDCP, does it
also have it?

Has anyone else looked at the new Monster M-Design Centra and Eleganze stands? These look very well built, have fans for cooling equipment, cable management for all the wires, sliding rear doors for easy access to components, and heavy duty casters for easily moving the 355 pound unit around. They come in gloss black as well as light and dark cherry. They are pricey ($3000-&4000) but ehy are beautiful. Anyway, it is something to think about. :cool:

http://www.mdesignlife.com/

Thanks I'll check those out.

Jason, to be honest I'm going to cave and get the wife what she wants. I got the go ahead on the Diamond Case, so unless I see something better (Monster M-Design, etc.) I will likely order today.

I want my SXRD!!!

Unless of course the reports come back today as a huge disappointment and I start waiting for the next "best thing" around the corner.

What about add-in cards for PC's such as Fusion and MyHD?
The Fusion, MyHD, and other HDTV tuner cards for PCs will display and record ATSC OTA broadcasts and clear cable channels in an unencripted format and output it via DVI as such. (I don't believe any so far have HDMI interfaces - you have to use a DVI to HDMI converter) I don't believe any currently support a cable card, but, if they did, then the signal would be probably be unencripted when saved to disk as well. I'm sure all the latest info on this is in the HTPC forum which I haven't checked lately since my HTPC with Fusion HD card is doing everything I need it to for now.

msleb

Yep! Just checked my pre-order and Sony has pushed the date back to end of September for Crutchfield for all orders. I asked about others that may discount in the meantime and he said Crutch doesn't Price Match but I could cancel my order at that time since they don't invoice the credit card until shipment.

Only pre-ordered at MSRP for the early delivery perhaps this will provide time to get 10% or more off from another vendor since I now have to wait anyways and get a bit of serendipity while waiting. Hopefully we'll get some reports back this evening from CEDIA on the SXRD Sony's and others. :D

Most of as will be waiting until the first weeks of October to actually get this set.

Has anyone actually been able to check it out yet? Will it live up to the hype? Any thoughts, dudes?

One of our local TV stations just had a live report from the Indiana Convention Center/RCA Dome downtown, site of the show. As the camera panned around, I was sitting here dreaming of a way to get inside!!

Steve

I have a pass to get inside...will be there looking at the SXRD in about 2 hours...FINALLY! Reports to follow...stay tuned. :)

Sears.com just canceled my order. They said the 60inch was not avaliable at this time and suggested I order something else. Geez.

My associate just confirmed from CEDIA that these projectors are as good or better thann our qualia 70".

Bojingles, if Sears just cancelled your order for the 60", I'm now nervous about my order with them for the 50". They have delivery scheduled for Oct. 13th, which is sounding better all the time if it holds up.

My associate just confirmed from CEDIA that these projectors are as good or better thann our qualia 70".
Sweet...that's what we like to hear! :D

How about some pics! :)

Jason

My associate just confirmed from CEDIA that these projectors are as good or better thann our qualia 70".

That's great to know, but was mostly expected. The bigger question is how they stack up against other 1080p sets DLP or Plasma in general, and against
the other 1080p LCoS sets from JVC and LG. Surely, the LG can not keep pace at its expected discount price point, but the JVC might give it a run for the money.

If the SXRD set stands up to the Qualia I can tell you it will be the best set out there. The DLP 1080P sets all use the same chip so I doubt if they will all look that much different. I have seen several 1080P dlp sets and wasn't impressed at all. LG isn't coming out with a set for a while and they make Zenith Plasma sets which are not rated that well. Heck they use to be Goldstar which was ultra low end. Nope the Sony is most likely the set to own unless you can afford a 60" plasma and if that is questionable. Brillian might be another set to watch for but I want something now!!!

Has anyone else looked at the new Monster M-Design Centra and Eleganze stands? These look very well built, have fans for cooling equipment, cable management for all the wires, sliding rear doors for easy access to components, and heavy duty casters for easily moving the 355 pound unit around. They come in gloss black as well as light and dark cherry. They are pricey ($3000-&4000) but ehy are beautiful. Anyway, it is something to think about. :cool:

Unless you have an unusually large viewing distance, unusually high seating, or an unusually long upper body :eek:, you might find a 28" tall unit to be too tall to place beneath a 60" display (screen center would be about 50" from the floor), although it may be okay for the shorter 50" display. The Sony stand, by comparison, is 17 3/8" tall and seems to be sized for a 60" display in conjunction with typical seating and normal humans.

They do look fine though.

The Sony XSRD doesn't claim HDCP, does it
also have it?

Yes they do support HDCP. I don't know of any TV that doesn't, seeing as it would limit what they can receive. It really isn't a big deal, don't worry too much about it.

My associate just confirmed from CEDIA that these projectors are as good or better thann our qualia 70".

Also heard from an associate out there who isn't given to superlatives words describing the SXRD such as "astounding" and "wow". Waiting to hear or see reviews and more detail. He also said that he's seen at least 3 1080P displays that are markedly better than any in the stores now. I suspect the JVC is another one, though he wouldn't confirm. Wonder what the 3rd one is? Eagerly awaiting further reports. Shaping up as a great Fall & Holiday season for 1080P buyers.
Better sets coming out and prices continuing to drop with all the competition :)

Also heard from an associate out there who isn't given to superlatives words describing the SXRD such as "astounding" and "wow". Waiting to hear or see reviews and more detail. He also said that he's seen at least 3 1080P displays that are markedly better than any in the stores now. I suspect the JVC is another one, though he wouldn't confirm. Wonder what the 3rd one is? Eagerly awaiting further reports. Shaping up as a great Fall & Holiday season for 1080P buyers.
Better sets coming out and prices continuing to drop with all the competition :)

might be the hp dlp which is reported to also have 1080p hdmi inputs confirmed for all those who have been beating that drum...to death.

Also heard from an associate out there who isn't given to superlatives words describing the SXRD such as "astounding" and "wow". Waiting to hear or see reviews and more detail. He also said that he's seen at least 3 1080P displays that are markedly better than any in the stores now. I suspect the JVC is another one, though he wouldn't confirm. Wonder what the 3rd one is? Eagerly awaiting further reports. Shaping up as a great Fall & Holiday season for 1080P buyers.
Better sets coming out and prices continuing to drop with all the competition :)


Pics please we need pics!

might be the hp dlp which is reported to also have 1080p hdmi inputs confirmed for all those who have been beating that drum...to death.


I was thinking the same, but i'm just guessing at this point. I am excited to hear that the early reports on the SXRD's have been superlatives. Especially since the type of people attending generally don't get overexcited and tend to pooh-pooh everything :rolleyes:

The last time I knew what I was talking about when it came to TV technology was 6 years ago, so I've been coming up to speed. My current plan is to get one of the new SXRDs when they come out -- assuming the reviews are good.

I do have two newbie questions, though:

1. Everyone's charging MSRP. Is that because this is a brand new high end product? I'm just making sure that this is what I should expect. Normally I'm used to consumer electronics being heavily discounted off of list price.

2. I will be watching a lot of TV that isn't in HD, both from DSS and DVD. Probably only a small percentage will be HD at first. I understand that some HDTVs handle this much more gracefully than others. Any reasons to expect this new XBR to be one way or the other?

Thanks,
-- Ethan

I've gotten quotes from 2 large Chicago based appliance stores that are charging less than MSRP. And I didn't have to bargain with them to get that price. One also was giving 1/2 off on the extended warrantee. One had in their system that they had 18 supposedly coming in Sept 15 (maybe 18th I forgot). I got the first dealer (better customer service) to match the second.

The Fusion, MyHD, and other HDTV tuner cards for PCs will display and record ATSC OTA broadcasts and clear cable channels in an unencripted format and output it via DVI as such. (I don't believe any so far have HDMI interfaces - you have to use a DVI to HDMI converter) I don't believe any currently support a cable card, but, if they did, then the signal would be probably be unencripted when saved to disk as well. I'm sure all the latest info on this is in the HTPC forum which I haven't checked lately since my HTPC with Fusion HD card is doing everything I need it to for now.

Does DVI always equal non-encrypted, and HDMI always equal encrypted?

I've gotten quotes from 2 large Chicago based appliance stores that are charging less than MSRP. And I didn't have to bargain with them to get that price. One also was giving 1/2 off on the extended warrantee. One had in their system that they had 18 supposedly coming in Sept 15 (maybe 18th I forgot). I got the first dealer (better customer service) to match the second.


I was able to negotiate 15% off MSRP but then on Monday every electronics store was running no sales tax for labor day. So my final was about 22% off before taxes. There is room to work with.

jkv4 I was able to negotiate 15% off MSRP but then on Monday every electronics store was running no sales tax for labor day. So my final was about 22% off before taxes. There is room to work with.

OK, Don't bait and tease - where'd you get this deal? National Chain B&M? Your profile doesn't ID your location - Perhaps you could charge a fee for PM Quotes? Or auction off the discounts on Ebay. Please tell us. :cool:

So much for Sears. They just cancelled my order for the 50" SXRD because it is suddenly "unavailable". What is up with this? This is the first time I've tried to do business with Sears and it will be the last time.

So much for Sears. They just cancelled my order for the 50" SXRD because it is suddenly "unavailable". What is up with this? This is the first time I've tried to do business with Sears and it will be the last time.

K, you're the second in 4 hours to post something like this. Has Sears been dropped off the list of authorized dealers, or what ?

The SXRD is still listed on the sears site. Why would they cancel the order and still leave the products on the site?

K, you're the second in 4 hours to post something like this. Has Sears been dropped off the list of authorized dealers, or what ?

I think Sony/Qualia shops are going to be first inline to get them. They will probably have to offer a free one to all the early adopters who paid 13K for the 006:) J/K

Pics please we need pics!

No pics...BUT I was just there and actually saw both the 50, and 60 inch SXRD with a Qualia in between.

The PQ on these is excellent. Not quite as good as good as the Qualia, but VERY close. The main difference is that the SXRD's do exhibit some SSE. The SXRD screen is a matte finish, and looks about the same as the A-10 and A-20 screens. The black levels were excellent, with good shadow detail. There is no visible pixel structure at all, even less than on the 1080P DLP's. There was some video noise in the background, but all larger TV's I have seen exhibit that somewhat. Overall, it was the best PQ I have seen on a 50, or 60 inch TV that a normal human could afford.

They confirmed that the sets DO NOT accept 1080P inputs from any source, and have no idea when such a feature will be available. The sets do have TWO HDMI inputs.

I was not able to confirm that the 60 inch uses the exact same case as this years SX model, but it sure looks the same. Don't assume that though if you trying to make furniture to an exact fit.

Now for the bad. The outside bezel around the screen is SHINY black. NOT good. Also the dumbo ear speakers are indeed there. They are catching hell on that one. The Sony reps all admitted that people indeed hate the speaker wings, and they have had endless negative comments about them already at the Cedia show. I overheard 3 people commenting on how they were a bad idea just in the 20 minutes or so I hung around the display. One rep said it was decided in Japan to use that design, and they already know they screwed up. He said he expects to see the wings gone in a year, or two on the next generation of the SXRD.

The SXRD 60 inch looked much better than the A-20 60 inch nearby. The SXRD 50 inch was clearly superior to the A-10 50 inch, but not by as wide a margin due to the smaller screen size, and the A-10's somewhat improved black levels.

I also had a chance to see some other of the new 1080P TV's. The Toshiba looked good but had a softer PQ, plus I saw the dreaded DLP rainbows almost immediately. The LG was just OK. The Samsung 1080P looked mediocre also compared to the SXRD. The JVC was the only one that really looked about as good as the Sony, although it was in a much brighter lit area making it harder to judge black levels.

All in all I would say Sony has a winner here. The poor case design is where they really blew it. These TV's blow the DLP's out of the water. They even rival the best plasmas, although they have a different kind of picture quality. The plasmas are more like looking through a window, but have very obvious SDE. The SXRD is virturally free of any pixels, but has the SSE effect to some extent. If you guys have any more questions, I will try to answer them.

So much for Sears. They just cancelled my order for the 50" SXRD because it is suddenly "unavailable". What is up with this? This is the first time I've tried to do business with Sears and it will be the last time.

One more update. The Sony rep at CEDIA said they won't be shipping any meaningful quantities of the SXRD until the the very end of September, and they should have decent availability by late October.

thanks alan for your impressions. did sony say anything about a worldwide release of this TVs (outside the US)? :rolleyes:

Great info Alan, did LG have the 62" LCoS set there or just the 71"? I think the 62" would be a better comparison. Any more info about the JVCs LCoS? Do the have the 1080p input like the LGs? How did the action scene look on all the sets. I have seen some nice 1080p DLP sets with slow moving images that turn to crap during sporting events. Thanks again for the info so far, as little information seems to be getting out.

Hay Alan, thanks for the great feedback.

Were you able to determine if the SXRD sets have the Wega Gate interface? Its by no means a deal-breaker for me, just a nice-to-have.

Also, based on what you saw, and contrast ratio improvements aside, do you think that 1080p on a 50" screen size would be kinda wasted at a 12-13' viewing distance and that a 720p like the A10 would suffice?

Didn't get the Wega-Gage info. As for the 50 incher, if you are sitting that far away, I would probably buy the A-10 for now. It is about half the price, and still a darn nice TV. I have a feeling the SXRD willl end up in the A-10 case in a couple years, and cost half what it does now. The real advantage of the SXRD was on the larger 60 inch screen size, where it really blew away the A-20.

I see you said no 1080p on any input, but I guess we won't really know about VGA "unoficially" supporting it until someone tries? Or was the person who you talked to an engineer who categorically said VGA wouldn't accept 1080p?

Great info Alan, did LG have the 62" LCoS set there or just the 71"? I think the 62" would be a better comparison. Any more info about the JVCs LCoS? Do the have the 1080p input like the LGs? How did the action scene look on all the sets. I have seen some nice 1080p DLP sets with slow moving images that turn to crap during sporting events. Thanks again for the info so far, as little information seems to be getting out.

I saw the 62 inch LG..it was nice but not outstanding. Didn't really ask anything about the JVC's...but they did have a very nice PQ. Action scenes looked good on the SXRD's, but I didn't see any fast action on the other brands to make a good judgement.

I see you said no 1080p on any input, but I guess we won't really know about VGA "unoficially" supporting it until someone tries? Or was the person who you talked to an engineer who categorically said VGA wouldn't accept 1080p?

The rep said no 1080P period. But that doesn't make him a genius..lol I guess time will tell on this issue.

thanks alan for your impressions. did sony say anything about a worldwide release of this TVs (outside the US)? :rolleyes:

Sorry..no info on that. So far it sounds like they are having trouble getting them out on time for the US market :)

Alan,

What do you think of the viewing angles.... how far can you go to the side of the SXRD's until the picture quality drops off??

-Dave

Alan,

What do you think of the viewing angles.... how far can you go to the side of the SXRD's until the picture quality drops off??

-Dave

Seems to be the same as the A-20, and A-10, which means you can move to side a good amount before the brightness falls off a lot.

Did the Sony Reps giveany ideas on Lamp life?? How long will these things last??

-Dave

Sorry..no info on that. So far it sounds like they are having trouble getting them out on time for the US market :)

thanks alan! well, maybe i should consider purchasing a DLP.

Did the Sony Reps giveany ideas on Lamp life?? How long will these things last??

-Dave

I would expect the same as the other RPTV's using similar bulbs....3000-6000 hours or so.

thanks alan! well, maybe i should consider purchasing a DLP.

I would reconsider that idea and wait a bit longer :)

The PQ on these is excellent. Not quite as good as good as the Qualia, but VERY close. The main difference is that the SXRD's do exhibit some SSE.

Dammit, I was afraid of that. How was the SSE on these compared to the A10 and A20, or the JVC 1080p? Did the JVC have a matte or glossy screen?

Dammit, I was afraid of that. How was the SSE on these compared to the A10 and A20, or the JVC 1080p? Did the JVC have a matte or glossy screen?

EVERY 1080P RPTV I saw except the Qualia had SSE, and a matte screen. I would say the SSE may be less on the SXRD than on the A-10 and A-20, but it is still there.

Cmon alan, certainly you can tell us if SSE is as bad as lcds, should be way better... May be better? How much better?lol... Are you saying its pretty close to the LCDS?..

No pics...BUT I was just there and actually saw both the 50, and 60 inch SXRD with a Qualia in between.

The PQ on these is excellent. Not quite as good as good as the Qualia, but VERY close. The main difference is that the SXRD's do exhibit some SSE. The SXRD screen is a matte finish, and looks about the same as the A-10 and A-20 screens. The black levels were excellent, with good shadow detail. There is no visible pixel structure at all, even less than on the 1080P DLP's. There was some video noise in the background, but all larger TV's I have seen exhibit that somewhat. Overall, it was the best PQ I have seen on a 50, or 60 inch TV that a normal human could afford.

They confirmed that the sets DO NOT accept 1080P inputs from any source, and have no idea when such a feature will be available. The sets do have TWO HDMI inputs.

I was not able to confirm that the 60 inch uses the exact same case as this years SX model, but it sure looks the same. Don't assume that though if you trying to make furniture to an exact fit.

Now for the bad. The outside bezel around the screen is SHINY black. NOT good. Also the dumbo ear speakers are indeed there. They are catching hell on that one. The Sony reps all admitted that people indeed hate the speaker wings, and they have had endless negative comments about them already at the Cedia show. I overheard 3 people commenting on how they were a bad idea just in the 20 minutes or so I hung around the display. One rep said it was decided in Japan to use that design, and they already know they screwed up. He said he expects to see the wings gone in a year, or two on the next generation of the SXRD.

The SXRD 60 inch looked much better than the A-20 60 inch nearby. The SXRD 50 inch was clearly superior to the A-10 50 inch, but not by as wide a margin due to the smaller screen size, and the A-10's somewhat improved black levels.

I also had a chance to see some other of the new 1080P TV's. The Toshiba looked good but had a softer PQ, plus I saw the dreaded DLP rainbows almost immediately. The LG was just OK. The Samsung 1080P looked mediocre also compared to the SXRD. The JVC was the only one that really looked about as good as the Sony, although it was in a much brighter lit area making it harder to judge black levels.

All in all I would say Sony has a winner here. The poor case design is where they really blew it. These TV's blow the DLP's out of the water. They even rival the best plasmas, although they have a different kind of picture quality. The plasmas are more like looking through a window, but have very obvious SDE. The SXRD is virturally free of any pixels, but has the SSE effect to some extent. If you guys have any more questions, I will try to answer them.


So, no surprises basically. The Sony SXRD and the JVC D-ILA 1080P's have been hyped all along to run 1-2 in the race for best affordable 1080P Microdisplays this year and the Toshiba 1080P was supposed to be the best DLP. Looks like all the pre-race favorites delivered. No longshot entries? No surprises? Any other 1080P Display impress you? The LG was just Ok? Was it better than the Toshiba DLP? How did the HP 1080P DLP look to you?

Alan,

Thanks for all the information. Your feedback is much appreciated! :)

thanks alan! well, maybe i should consider purchasing a DLP.


You do not want to make that mistake... :)

Any chance of someone comparing the 60” SXRD with a Panasonic 65” 1080p Plasma? (if one is on display)
Black level comparisons are particularly important to me.

Is the announcement of the VPL-VW100 giving anyone second thoughts? I know it is a different product category, but it uses the same chips and is only 2x the price. Also, I'm sure to end up dissapointed, but the release below indicates a "1080p HDMI input". I had ruled out FP, and was leaning towards the 60" but this seems like a killer product at a more "affordable" price (compared to the 004), especially if that 0% sony financing were available for it. I guess more details will be available this weekend. How much blood would I need to sell each month...

-----------------------
INDIANAPOLIS (PRNewswire) - INDIANAPOLIS, Sept. 8 /PRNewswire/ -- Sony Electronics today took the wraps off a new 1920 x 1080p (progressive) high-definition front projector based on the company's exclusive Silicon X-tal Reflective Display (SXRD(TM)) technology, with a contrast ratio of up to 15,000:1.

The VPL-VW100 joins the two new Grand WEGA SXRD rear-projection microdisplay televisions, the KDS-R60XBR1 and KDS-R50XBR1, utilizing the world's smallest 0.61 SXRD chip to deliver more than 2 million pixels and the full power of high-definition. The projector incorporates three SXRD chips -- one each for red, green and blue color reproduction -- to deliver more than 6 million native pixels.

"Our goal is to optimize the home theater experience and this new SXRD projector is another example of how we're accomplishing that goal," said Randy Waynick, senior vice president of the Home Products Division for Sony Electronics. "This is absolutely a true movie theater experience in the comfort of your own home."

Leaning on some of the same technology found in Sony's acclaimed QUALIA 004 SXRD projector, the VPL-VW100 model features a 400 watt Pure Xenon lamp that delivers unrivaled color reproduction. The lamp approximates sun light and can reproduce colors closest to the natural spectrum including the red bandwidth, and is widely used in professional film projectors.

The new Advanced Iris produces accurate blacks and works with three 0.61 SXRD chips to deliver an over-all contrast ratio of up to 15,000:1 when "auto" Iris mode is on. Additionally, thanks to an advanced cooling structure, the VPL-VW100 features an extremely low fan noise of 22dB, which is one of the lowest in the industry and critical for home theater applications.

The projector also features 1.8x powered lens zoom and powered focus as well as lens shift to adjust the vertical and/or horizontal manual location of the image for flexible installation locations. Input options include 1080p HDMI and DVI-D and RGB and component video.

The new VPL-VW100 will be available in November for about $10,000 at authorized dealers nationwide.

ordering a sony 50" sxrd (kds-r50xbr1) because I'm returning the kd-34xbr960 which I bought one week ago at a dept. store. It's a good tv but screen size too small. I know that I should have known better but got confused about all the reviews on large screen tvs that analog channels are fuzzy and grainy. Would it be wise to pre-order a 50" sxrd when I return this tv? I don't know yet if they will take the 34" one back without buying a new one. Is the the sxrd considered a 3lcd and how long has sony been making 3lcds. Would you pre-order the sxrd or not and why? Thanks in advance.

Didn't get the Wega-Gage info. As for the 50 incher, if you are sitting that far away, I would probably buy the A-10 for now. It is about half the price, and still a darn nice TV. I have a feeling the SXRD willl end up in the A-10 case in a couple years, and cost half what it does now. The real advantage of the SXRD was on the larger 60 inch screen size, where it really blew away the A-20.

If you were sitting approx 7 to 8 feet from a 50", and money wasn't an issue would you choose the A-10 or the new SXRD? I plan on using it for watching tv, dvds, and gaming.

Thanks for taking the time to type your information, and your replies as well. :)

Money aside SXRD is the winner according to the feedback coming in from CEDIA and this was no surprise really as Sony has seen SXRD to become it's next Trinitron - it's heritage is with Q006,004 so how could you lose.

For a leaner budget the A10 is a good value. I don't see any buyer's remorse for myself other than the time waiting, and waiting to get it. Go For it! But make sure you give it what it deserves with an HD Feed and proper quality cables and I don't mean Monster unless you may have money to burn, Forum Sponsors above have great cables that make the transition affordable.

I find it shocking how many people I see post using an S-video cable and no HD STB pushing an analog "Garbage" signal and then complain of a blurry/grainy view.

I simply cannot understand someone paying $4K for a TV and then scrimp on getting a cable card or HD STB for a mere $5.00 per month extra and then they wonder why people rave about HD? I've provided both to my Sharp LCD FP and nothing on my set is blurry or grainy and every single HD channel is terrific and in fact some make me go WOW even 4 months later and that's on a measly 32" Sharp LCD FP broadcasting 16:9 1080i and I cannot wait to take it up to the 60" SXRD - Oh Yeah Holy Grail will be found until the next generation.

Go for it and Good Luck! :D

What's SSE?

So, no surprises basically. The Sony SXRD and the JVC D-ILA 1080P's have been hyped all along to run 1-2 in the race for best affordable 1080P Microdisplays this year and the Toshiba 1080P was supposed to be the best DLP. Looks like all the pre-race favorites delivered. No longshot entries? No surprises? Any other 1080P Display impress you? The LG was just Ok? Was it better than the Toshiba DLP? How did the HP 1080P DLP look to you?

Not to discount Alan's excellent commentary, but my Cedia contact state there was no 62" LG LCoS set there only the 71" and they confirmed they same thing. The picture was nice and solid, but lacked the "wow" factor of the JVC and Sony. There was a 62" LG DLP that was there.

Alan,

Did you get close enough to see if there was any chromatic abberation problems(or misconvergence) with the 60" SXRD?? Any vignetting, screen uniformity?

EVERY 1080P TV I saw except the Qualia had SSE, and a matte screen. I would say the SSE may be less on the SXRD than on the A-10 and A-20, but it is still there.


What about the blacks and sharpness compared to the Qualia? It looks like the Qualia Screen really makes a difference, but that set also weights over 200lbs. I will make a final decision once I get it set up, but I might end up going for the new Pioneer Plasma's. Did buy any chance you see the 6th generation pioneer plasma's??

Not to discount Alan's excellent commentary, but my Cedia contact state there was no 62" LG LCoS set there only the 71" and they confirmed they same thing. The picture was nice and solid, but lacked the "wow" factor of the JVC and Sony. There was a 62" LG DLP that was there.

Thanks. I've heard from two people now that as far as 1080P Microdisplays, It was Sony & JVC. The rest were fighting for the show money, but nobody was in the same league as the top two. What i'm trying to ascertain now is - if you throw out the SXRD's & D-ILA's, how did the rest stack up against each other. I've only heard "OK", "mediocre", or "poor" about any of the others, but i suspect that's only because people were comparing them to the Sonys & JVC's. I wonder how they compare to each other. For instance, how much better were the Toshiba 1080P DLP's than the rest? How did the LG LCoS stack up against the DLP's?, How good is the new HP 1080P DLP? etc.

Does DVI always equal non-encrypted, and HDMI always equal encrypted?

HDMI is always HDCP but DVI can be HDCP or not.

Roy

What's SSE?


Ask Zues! :D :D :D He'll tell you all you want to hear . :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Did Alan give us a definitive answer on the number of HDMI inputs? If he did, I missed it.

Two HDMI inputs.

Alan: Thanks for the updates. They are very informative. I feel good about my preorder. I got mine for under 4k. I had one question. Are you sure that the screen is the same matte screen as the A20. When I called SOnyStyle they were telling me it had a reflective screen cover. If it's matte my wife will be joyous and so will I.

I assume you got the 50" for under 4k???

Ask Zues! :D :D :D He'll tell you all you want to hear . :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Im innocent until proven guilty ;) :p ;)

Two HDMI inputs.Good to hear! :) :) :)

It just goes to show how much markup there is on these sets.

No. I got a 60" for under 4k. Had to take the 450.00 warranty though.

Wow! I'm impressed!

It just goes to show how much markup there is on these sets.

And on extended warrantees!

Cmon alan, certainly you can tell us if SSE is as bad as lcds, should be way better... May be better? How much better?lol... Are you saying its pretty close to the LCDS?..


Here we go again :) ...SSE is NOT a function of the light engine..it comes from the SCREEN...and yes it was not a lot less obvious than on the LCD's. I saw SSE on every 1080P RPTV at the show..not just the Sony's. It really doesn't bother me that much.

Alan: Thanks for the updates. They are very informative. I feel good about my preorder. I got mine for under 4k. I had one question. Are you sure that the screen is the same matte screen as the A20. When I called SOnyStyle they were telling me it had a reflective screen cover. If it's matte my wife will be joyous and so will I.

Take joy then...they are a matte finish for sure....as far as I could tell exactly like the A-10 and A-20 screens. Of course the SSE haters will be hysterical....they wanted a reflective, :) but lower SSE screen...Sony can't win..lol

So, no surprises basically. The Sony SXRD and the JVC D-ILA 1080P's have been hyped all along to run 1-2 in the race for best affordable 1080P Microdisplays this year and the Toshiba 1080P was supposed to be the best DLP. Looks like all the pre-race favorites delivered. No longshot entries? No surprises? Any other 1080P Display impress you? The LG was just Ok? Was it better than the Toshiba DLP? How did the HP 1080P DLP look to you?

I felt the Toshiba looked better than the LG, but I sure saw rainbows in a hurry on it. The LG had serious SSE, and just didn't seem all that great. I didn't see the HP. Please remember though, I saw these TV's in differing light levels, and with different program material. Not the fairest test to be sure. I can say though that the Sony's, and JVC's were VERY impressive from what I saw. The 1080P advantage becomes especially obvious when the screen size is 60 and larger. The Sony SXRD was CLEARLY superior to the 3LCD models in contrast, black levels, clarity, and absence of SDE.

What's the pricing of the JVC models?

Any chance of someone comparing the 60” SXRD with a Panasonic 65” 1080p Plasma? (if one is on display)
Black level comparisons are particularly important to me.

I didn't even find the the Panny booth today...if I go back tomorrow I will look for it. That said, the SXRD looked to have very solid black levels, (far better than the A-20's), and they were displayed in a fairly dark room where any problems would have been obvious.

If you were sitting approx 7 to 8 feet from a 50", and money wasn't an issue would you choose the A-10 or the new SXRD? I plan on using it for watching tv, dvds, and gaming.

Thanks for taking the time to type your information, and your replies as well. :)

At 7-8 feet the advantages of the SXRD would become more obvious. You won't have the SDE issues that the A-10 would display at that close a distance. If money isn't an issue go for the SXRD. If on a budget, the A-10 is still a nice TV for many people though.

What's SSE?

At best, a misnomer.

At worst, a borderline urban legend.

Called silkscreen effect -- apparently by people who wear stockings over their heads -- it is a sparkling or speckling effect caused by the screen on some RPTVs.

It allows people to see the screen itself as some light separates into sub colors and it can be annoying. It can especially be annoying on bright whites when instead of seeing the image -- as you are where the screen isn't filled with bright white -- you are seeing the screen instead and the white areas aren't even uniform to boot.

Essentially, every microdisplay RPTV that has a diffusion-type screen and nothing else between that screen and you can exhibit this. Toning down the brightness can help, but typically there is little that can be done to mitigate this. I suppose some sort of gloss layer could be added in front of the screen, but I doubt that'd work very well.

Anyway, like most annoyances, this is a dumb one to look for if you can't already see it.

Not to discount Alan's excellent commentary, but my Cedia contact state there was no 62" LG LCoS set there only the 71" and they confirmed they same thing. The picture was nice and solid, but lacked the "wow" factor of the JVC and Sony. There was a 62" LG DLP that was there.

I could be mistaken on the size of the LG. It was rather a mob scene in there, and I spent most of my time looking at the Sony's and JVC's. I do know it was LG's 1080 LCOS that I saw, but I may have forgotten the size of the screen. If so my apologies.....BUT I stand by my opinion that it wasn't all that impressive. :rolleyes:

Alan,

Did you get close enough to see if there was any chromatic abberation problems(or misconvergence) with the 60" SXRD?? Any vignetting, screen uniformity?

I saw no problems at all of that nature. The PQ was excellent overall, so long as you aren't a SSE hater. I practically stuck my face against the screen looking for such issues. We can expect that Sony sent as perfect a sample as ever made to the show though. :)

What about the blacks and sharpness compared to the Qualia? It looks like the Qualia Screen really makes a difference, but that set also weights over 200lbs. I will make a final decision once I get it set up, but I might end up going for the new Pioneer Plasma's. Did buy any chance you see the 6th generation pioneer plasma's??

I would say the Qualia is a tad sharper due to the screen and less SSE. The black levels were probably better on the new SXRD's, but unfortunately they had a different program on the Qualia than on the SXRD's, making it hard to exactly compare them. I didn't yet see the Pioneer display. I would imagine that they will be impressive given their record so far.

I've been checking out a Sony A-10 in my home for the past couple of days. The SSE really isn't that bad. It looks a lot worse in stores where the TV brightness is high and there is a lot of ambient light (especially overhead). The SSE on the A10 is definitely reduced relative to the previous model, just as SSE on the A20 is reduced relative to the previous (WF655 and XS955) models. Using a more realistic contrast setting and ambient light results in barely noticeable SSE and you really have to look for it. So, if the SSE of the SXRD is at least the same as the A10 there should be nothing to worry about.

I don't find the SSE to be at all objectionable. In fact if you don't think about it you probably won't even notice it. But I wanted to let people know that it is indeed present, in case that is an issue for them. The A-10 is a good TV also, and a great value. In the 50 inch size, the SXRD didn't totally blow it away. It was clearly better, but only the buyer can judge if they think it is THAT much better. The only people that would want to spend nearly double the money would probably be the kind of people that hang out in this forum..lol :)

Oh, did I mention how great the TVs looked?

They are not wanting for much of anything. Yes, a nicer case would be better. Not much to do on the picture-quality side short of getting these into people's living rooms and letting the jaw drop.

Thanks. I've heard from two people now that as far as 1080P Microdisplays, It was Sony & JVC. The rest were fighting for the show money, but nobody was in the same league as the top two. What i'm trying to ascertain now is - if you throw out the SXRD's & D-ILA's, how did the rest stack up against each other. I've only heard "OK", "mediocre", or "poor" about any of the others, but i suspect that's only because people were comparing them to the Sonys & JVC's. I wonder how they compare to each other. For instance, how much better were the Toshiba 1080P DLP's than the rest? How did the LG LCoS stack up against the DLP's?, How good is the new HP 1080P DLP? etc.

I thought the Toshiba's looked very nice, I would rate the PQ as 'very good'..BUT the rainbows were there as usual, thus killing any desire for me to own one. They were also displayed in a VERY bright area of the expo, which was unfair to them. I wouldn't call any of the 1080P TV's 'mediocre' or 'poor'. They would all rate at least a 'good', but the Sony's, and JVC's are knocking on excellent. The LG, and Samsung's would rate a 'good' in my opinion.

At best, a misnomer.

At worst, a borderline urban legend.

Called silkscreen effect -- apparently by people who wear stockings over their heads -- it is a sparkling or speckling effect caused by the screen on some RPTVs.

It allows people to see the screen itself as some light separates into sub colors and it can be annoying. It can especially be annoying on bright whites when instead of seeing the image -- as you are where the screen isn't filled with bright white -- you are seeing the screen instead and the white areas aren't even uniform to boot.

Essentially, every microdisplay RPTV that has a diffusion-type screen and nothing else between that screen and you can exhibit this. Toning down the brightness can help, but typically there is little that can be done to mitigate this. I suppose some sort of gloss layer could be added in front of the screen, but I doubt that'd work very well.

Anyway, like most annoyances, this is a dumb one to look for if you can't already see it.

We have to have SOME kind of name for this. What do you call it? :)

SSE = Sparkly Screen Effect of course! ;)

He said it was a 'misnomer' or an 'urban legend' which makes no sense to me. It is really there for all to see, so we have to have a name for it. I say we stick with SSE...you can make the letters say whatever words you want so long as they describe what we are seeing. :)

So now that we have some more specific info can we debate the 1080p input thing one last time? :D

I'm still having trouble swallowing the idea of spending this much cash on a 1080p tv that simply can not input 1080p. Lets be lenient for a moment and assume via software tweaks we can at least get 1080p from the vga input, we still have no means of an all digital 1:1 1080p input. Now of course we have no HD spec that fits this need for tv, hd-dvd from neither camp gets us this either and we seem to believe that the upconvert from a good 1080i source will simply go without any problem thanks to all the number conversions. The only potential item would be the PS3 and thats a long shot at this point.

All that being said is there any real reason I should still feel cheated about a seemingly useless feature? Is it time to just let go? The new FP SXRD is a nice option but not for that much cash. I have played around with the hs50 and thats a nice box (with 1080p24 already by the way) so this new one is probably amazing but too much cash. I really just do not understand why Sony gave us the bird on it and I cant be the only person having an issue with this (heh or am i)?

At best, a misnomer.

At worst, a borderline urban legend.

Called silkscreen effect -- apparently by people who wear stockings over their heads -- it is a sparkling or speckling effect caused by the screen on some RPTVs.

It allows people to see the screen itself as some light separates into sub colors and it can be annoying. It can especially be annoying on bright whites when instead of seeing the image -- as you are where the screen isn't filled with bright white -- you are seeing the screen instead and the white areas aren't even uniform to boot.

Essentially, every microdisplay RPTV that has a diffusion-type screen and nothing else between that screen and you can exhibit this. Toning down the brightness can help, but typically there is little that can be done to mitigate this. I suppose some sort of gloss layer could be added in front of the screen, but I doubt that'd work very well.

Anyway, like most annoyances, this is a dumb one to look for if you can't already see it.

Rogo,
Did you see the SXRD? If so what was your impression?

Rogo,
Did you see the SXRD? If so what was your impression?


.........and are you ordering one?? :)

Are you saying that all OTA digital transmissions, e.g. CBS NFL football in HD,
CSI:Miami, etc. are encrypted (scambled) by the STB on the HDMI/DVI output, and
HDCP decrypts/unscambles the signal? Is this on a device by device basis,
or are all STB/HDTV DVRs/tuners doing this currently? What about add-in cards
for PC's such as Fusion and MyHD? The Sony XSRD doesn't claim HDCP, does it
also have it?
If the protection flag in the transmission is set, all STBs must use HDCP on the HDMI/DVI port. Not sure about PC cards. Sony has HDCP- they have their own content to protect.

I thought the Toshiba's looked very nice, I would rate the PQ as 'very good'..BUT the rainbows were there as usual, thus killing any desire for me to own one. They were also displayed in a VERY bright area of the expo, which was unfair to them. I wouldn't call any of the 1080P TV's 'mediocre' or 'poor'. They would all rate at least a 'good', but the Sony's, and JVC's are knocking on excellent. The LG, and Samsung's would rate a 'good' in my opinion.


Where would you rank the Sony A10, A20 and the Panasonic RP-LCDs in your above product array?

Where would you rank the Sony A10, A20 and the Panasonic RP-LCDs in your above product array?


From Alan's post:

"The SXRD 60 inch looked much better than the A-20 60 inch nearby. The SXRD 50 inch was clearly superior to the A-10 50 inch, but not by as wide a margin due to the smaller screen size, and the A-10's somewhat improved black levels."


My(JimP's)interpretation.
The 50" A-10 is a 720p set that compared closer to the 50" SXRD that's 1080p. The 60" A-20 with 768p, showed a more dramatic difference to the 60" SXRD at 1080p. Sounds like the step up to 1080p benefits larger screen sizes more than smaller. Does anyone know of othe differences that may account for this??

You do not want to make that mistake... :)

i do not want to make that mistake. ...the force is strong in you, zeus :D

btw. does anyone know where we can find screenshots from this sets? is it allowed to take pictures there at CEDIA?

p.s.: that SSE might be good for the WIFE-factor - you know, girls love sparkles!

So now that we have some more specific info can we debate the 1080p input thing one last time? :D

I'm still having trouble swallowing the idea of spending this much cash on a 1080p tv that simply can not input 1080p. Lets be lenient for a moment and assume via software tweaks we can at least get 1080p from the vga input, we still have no means of an all digital 1:1 1080p input. Now of course we have no HD spec that fits this need for tv, hd-dvd from neither camp gets us this either and we seem to believe that the upconvert from a good 1080i source will simply go without any problem thanks to all the number conversions. The only potential item would be the PS3 and thats a long shot at this point.

All that being said is there any real reason I should still feel cheated about a seemingly useless feature? Is it time to just let go? The new FP SXRD is a nice option but not for that much cash. I have played around with the hs50 and thats a nice box (with 1080p24 already by the way) so this new one is probably amazing but too much cash. I really just do not understand why Sony gave us the bird on it and I cant be the only person having an issue with this (heh or am i)?

The Sony rep claimed that the ablility to input direct 1080P would have raised the price of the TV about $400.00, and most people don't care to pay for that feature, when there is practically no use for it at this time. (His words..not mine...don't come after me now :)

From Alan's post:

"The SXRD 60 inch looked much better than the A-20 60 inch nearby. The SXRD 50 inch was clearly superior to the A-10 50 inch, but not by as wide a margin due to the smaller screen size, and the A-10's somewhat improved black levels."


My(JimP's)interpretation.
The 50" A-10 is a 720p set that compared closer to the 50" SXRD that's 1080p. The 60" A-20 with 768p, showed a more dramatic difference to the 60" SXRD at 1080p. Sounds like the step up to 1080p benefits larger screen sizes more than smaller. Does anyone know of othe differences that may account for this??

Yes....the larger the screen, the more you seen the Screen Door Effect in the LCD's. Plus, the advantage of twice the resultion and higher fill factor becomes more obvious the bigger the screen size goes. Also, the A-10 has the dynamic iris, which has helped it's black levels somewhat vs. the A-20's. In BOTH sizes the SXRD was clearly the better TV, but as I said the difference was greater on the 60 inch for the above reasons.

Where would you rank the Sony A10, A20 and the Panasonic RP-LCDs in your above product array?

All the 1080P products are better than the ones you mention by at least some margin (and priced that way too). The A-10, and A-20 (720P's) are a notch below even the worst 1080P's. I have not studied the Panasonic LCD's a great deal, but on causual viewing at big box stores I would rank them another notch below the Sony 720P's

I have a quick question which may have been already asked, does anyone know if Best Buy will be selling these SXRD sets. The reason I ask is I used to work at BB and still have quit a few connections. What I mean is after telling the general manager about the problem I was having with the PSP on my Pioneer (taking them 2 months before they can even look at it), the general manager said I could bring in the Pioneer and he would give me full credit for the price I paid for it so I could apply that price to a new set of my choice. If this is the case I would only have to pay a little of $3000 for a 60" SXRD.

So now that we have some more specific info can we debate the 1080p input thing one last time? :D

I'm still having trouble swallowing the idea of spending this much cash on a 1080p tv that simply can not input 1080p.

To me, it all comes down to whether or not the networks have incentive to
go to 1080P. If 1080P is 60 FPS, then of course that will make a big
difference and there is your incentive. But as I see it, 1080i/30 is indistinguishable
from 1080P/30 on a fixed pixel set.

Is Blu-Ray 1080i/30 or 1080P/30?

Alan:

The shiny bezel sounds tacky but I guess I don't have a choice unless I roll the dice on a JVC which I am not willing to do because of QC issues. Too bad because JVC has a great looking cabinet desgin. I guess I'll get use to it and the ears on the set. I'm sure I'll be kicking myself when the new sets come out with no ears and 1080P inputs. Glad to hear the new sets have a similliar reflective screen as the A20. I had a 60" A20 set and it really was a great set. Contrast was a little flat and the SDE was very apparent on most feeds but overall I would buy this set again in a second if not for the SXRD sets. I would have liked one more component input too.

I have a quick question which may have been already asked, does anyone know if Best Buy will be selling these SXRD sets. The reason I ask is I used to work at BB and still have quit a few connections. What I mean is after telling the general manager about the problem I was having with the PSP on my Pioneer (taking them 2 months before they can even look at it), the general manager said I could bring in the Pioneer and he would give me full credit for the price I paid for it so I could apply that price to a new set of my choice. If this is the case I would only have to pay a little of $3000 for a 60" SXRD.

A few weeks ago I stopped at one of my BB locations to inquire about the SXRD sets. Two different salesmen at the store told me that BB will be selling these models.

Steve

[QUOTE=goldrich]A few weeks ago I stopped at one of my BB locations to inquire about the SXRD sets. Two different salesmen at the store told me that BB will be selling these models.

I would not bet my life on it...consider the source. ;)

[QUOTE=goldrich]A few weeks ago I stopped at one of my BB locations to inquire about the SXRD sets. Two different salesmen at the store told me that BB will be selling these models.

I would not bet my life on it...consider the source. ;)

Our Best Buy also knows all about the SXRD, and said they are coming soon. From what I was told at CEDIA yesterday, shipments in decent quantities won't really begin until late September from the Sony plant in Pennsylvania.

Alan:

The shiny bezel sounds tacky but I guess I don't have a choice unless I roll the dice on a JVC which I am not willing to do because of QC issues. Too bad because JVC has a great looking cabinet desgin. I guess I'll get use to it and the ears on the set. I'm sure I'll be kicking myself when the new sets come out with no ears and 1080P inputs. Glad to hear the new sets have a similliar reflective screen as the A20. I had a 60" A20 set and it really was a great set. Contrast was a little flat and the SDE was very apparent on most feeds but overall I would buy this set again in a second if not for the SXRD sets. I would have liked one more component input too.

I am really leaning toward buying a 50 inch A-10 for the moment. It fits my existing cabinet perfectly, and is a great buy. I figure I can use it for a couple years or so, sell it off to friends, and then get the SXRD when the prices have fallen greatly, and hopefully the dumbo ears will be gone too. Sony reps have certainly gotten the message loud and clear that the wide speaker design needs to GO!

ALAN:

Thanks for posting your impressions/observations. Besides NO 1080p [gamer] inputs, SHINY Black Bezel = :mad: .

EVERYONE:

Does Sony ever put their TV's on clearance? Like when next year's (?) model comes out? Or has anyone seen a Sony TV that is "1 year" old (like at Good Guys) and they put them on clearance to make room for the new models?

If I KNEW (?) for sure that next years was not going to have 1080p inputs again, and I could have the KDSR-60XBR1 for about $3,000, I would SNATCH IT UP [do it]. But then brings the question about the next "next" model.

Sorry for all the questions.

Thanks guys.

... and hopefully the dumbo ears will be gone too. Sony reps have certainly gotten the message loud and clear that the wide speaker design needs to GO!In defense of the dumbo ears, it's a fact that many people will strictly be using the internal speakers on these sets. For this purpose, side mounted speakers provide better stereo imaging than speakers mounted below the screen. That being said, I personally can't stand the bloody things. It's not so much that they look bad, but they make the set so much wider than necessary. Most stands you find are 63" wide. The dumbo ears make the Sony 66" wide. It's just plain annoying, not to mention the fact that it makes it harder to squeeze the set into tight spaces. Like almost everyone else who hangs out on this forum, I listen exclusively though an external surround system. Hell, I never even took the speakers out of the box that came with my plasma. :)

It's not just that they're mounted on the side, they're also offset 1 inch per side with those silly air spaces in-between which adds 2 inches width (for no good reason I can think of). It won't fit in my space where the 50 inch GWIII will.

Alan: That would be a smart move. I wish I could settle.

It's not just that they're mounted on the side, they're also offset 1 inch per side with those silly air spaces in-between which adds 2 inches width (for no good reason I can think of). It won't fit in my space where the 50 inch GWIII will.

Given that the A-10's are such a huge hit (in fact hard to get), Sony now knows that most people like the slimmer cabinet design. Given all the complaining to the reps at CEDIA about the wide speakers, I would say it is almost certain that a redesign will be coming fairly quickly. I would guess in 12-24 months that the A-10 type cabinets will be available with SXRD internals. :)

Is Blu-Ray 1080i/30 or 1080P/30?

Blu-Ray Supports:
- 1920 x 1080 HD (50i, 60i and 24p)
- 1280 x 720 HD (50p, 60p and 24p)
- 720 x 576/480 SD (50i or 60i)

So if nothing else they should have at least given us 1080p24f. FPs from last year even have this support. Now others have said before that the internal conversion will work perfectly from 1080p to i back to p so its not that big a deal. Still though if a tv costs $5000 MSRP, I find it had to believe it was that difficult to fit a "400 chip" into its budget somehow. At a bare minimum they could have created an upgrade path for us all so as not to alienate us down the line.

In defense of the dumbo ears, it's a fact that many people will strictly be using the internal speakers on these sets. For this purpose, side mounted speakers provide better stereo imaging than speakers mounted below the screen.

The real problem is that they are not removable. If Sony would come out with a design where the speakers were an optional accessory then they would be loved.

Costco and Sam's Club have some current and previous Sonys. Both have the 60XS955 and the 50WE610 (or similar). Sam's also has the 50A10.

Thanks AKASTP. If you weren't considering an SXRD, would you go with a 60XS955, or a A10/A20? Which one comes "closest" to the SXRD in your opinion? A HUMBLE thanks.

-- Matthew

The real problem is that they are not removable. If Sony would come out with a design where the speakers were an optional accessory then they would be loved.I agree. The ones on the Qualia are removeable, right?

Its amazing Sony's brand name helped it weather the DLP storm with inferior LCD based products, but now that the tables have turned, with SXRD being the superior technology, I wonder what will happen to DLP.

You know one can get a 73" Mitsubishi CRT-RPTV that is the same width as the 60" SXRD and it comes with a stand and speakers on the bottom and a self for components on the top. 73" has much more impact than 60" and it is less expensive (and IMHO, better picture quality too- a Sony exec stated this also). Just something to think about.

Its amazing Sony's brand name helped it weather the DLP storm with inferior LCD based products, but now that the tables have turned, with SXRD being the superior technology, I wonder what will happen to DLP.

I wouldn't call the 3LCD's 'inferior' to DLP...I would call it a draw...with each having their pros and cons. SXRD is going to do serious damage to DLP, especially if Sony can get the prices down to DLP levels on it. I could imagine that both the 3LCD, and DLP could fall by the wayside in a few years if SXRD works out as well as it seems it should. DLP might survive though, if they dump the color wheel, and go to a 3 chip system. That would rid it of the dreaded rainbow issues.

You know one can get a 73" Mitsubishi CRT-RPTV that is the same width as the 60" SXRD and it comes with a stand and speakers on the bottom. 73" has much more impact than 60" and it is less expensive (and IMHO, better picture quality too). Just something to think about.

How would you know the MITS has 'better picture quality'? Have you even SEEN the SXRD yet? For what it worth, I have surely never seen a CRT-RPTV that can come close to overall quality of picture the Qualia, and SXRD's exhibited at CEDIA yesterday.

AlanBuck

Could you give your opinion of the best of the following DLP's Samsung, Toshiba, Mits 1080p. Which one of the three would you recommend?

Its amazing Sony's brand name helped it weather the DLP storm with inferior LCD based products, but now that the tables have turned, with SXRD being the superior technology, I wonder what will happen to DLP.

A lot of people would beg to differ. That would include the general buying public, who by voting with their pocketbooks have decided that the Sony 3LCD's are by far the better technology for them. Sony 3LCD's outsell all DLP's combined by a VERY wide margin.

AlanBuck

Could you give your opinion of the best of the following DLP's Samsung, Toshiba, Mits 1080p. Which one of the three would you recommend?

If you are speaking of 1080P versions I have only seen the Samsung, and the Toshiba. The Samsung's have not impressed me much, and I have seen them several times in various stores. The Toshiba looked very good at the EXPO, even in bright light, but I am not a DLP fan due to seeing rainbows constantly on them. I didn't see the Mits, since DLP is not on my shopping list, and I didn't run into their display area at the EXPO. I would imagine they are pretty good though if you are a DLP fan.

You know one can get a 73" Mitsubishi CRT-RPTV that is the same width as the 60" SXRD and it comes with a stand and speakers on the bottom and a self for components on the top. 73" has much more impact than 60" and it is less expensive (and IMHO, better picture quality too- a Sony exec stated this also). Just something to think about.

I doubt a 'Sony exec' would ever say that a Mits CRT-RPTV has a better quality picture! Even if it did..lol :)

If you are speaking of 1080P versions I have only seen the Samsung, and the Toshiba. The Samsung's have not impressed me much, and I have seen them several times in various stores. The Toshiba looked very good at the EXPO, even in bright light, but I am not a DLP fan due to seeing rainbows constantly on them. I didn't see the Mits, since DLP is not on my shopping list, and I didn't run into their display area at the EXPO. I would imagine they are pretty good though if you are a DLP fan.


Everyone (2 people) i've heard from concurs. They all thought the Toshiba's were easily the best of the 1080P DLP's, but they were further away from the SXRD's & D-ILA's than they were ahead of the Mitsubishi and HP 1080P DLP's, which both thought were next best, but not near the Toshiba's.

i know i'm getting annoying but i must ask again :) - does anyone know where we could find some screenshots from this new SXRDs? there are already a bunch of screenshots from the various projectors and other CEDIA-news out but not a single photo from the new RPTVs. somebody tell me why :)

i know i'm getting annoying but i must ask again :) - does anyone know where we could find some screenshots from this new SXRDs? there are already a bunch of screenshots from the various projectors and other CEDIA-news out but not a single photo from the new RPTVs. somebody tell me why :)


I really don't think photos of a TV will do much to show the quality of the PQ, but I can again say these TV's are as good as it gets on a large screen. The JVC's were right there also. Will be interesting to see them side-by-side in stores soon to make a better call about which is truly best.

i just doubt that the PQ will look that good in real life ;)
http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/imagesProducts/650x650/KDSR50XBR1.jpg

i just doubt that the PQ will look that good in real life ;)
http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/imagesProducts/650x650/KDSR50XBR1.jpg

Hmmmm, as for the pic on the website, I would say the TV actually looked BETTER in person! Have you seen the existing 3LCD 60 inch model in person? Let's say it gets a letter grade of about C+/B-. From that I can say the SXRD gets a grade of B+/A-. No TV is perfect.....for that matter I was thinking that while we complain about all these TV's , even my GWIII usually has a better picture than I see on the screens at the theatre. Perfection is hard to define, and quite a ways off. The SXRD is about as close as it comes so far.

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CEDIA Expo: Sony Does 1080p TV Without DLP

Posted by Alan Stafford
Friday, September 09, 2005, 09:36 PM (PST)


Most of the manufacturers hawking 1080p sets are using Texas Instruments' DLP micro-display technology, but Sony's doing it with its Silicon X-tal (Crystal) Reflective Display (SXRD) technology, which is similar to JVC's Liquid Crystal on Silicon (LCoS).

Sony's KDS-R60XBR1 ($5000, shown below) and KDS-R50XBR1 ($4000) Grand WEGA models, which ship this month, use three SXRD panels to produce more than 2 million native pixels for a full 1080p image.

That's not the whole story, of course. The Sony rep I talked to said that while the flat panel can support a 1080p image, the chassis (the internal electronics) cannot. That's not a big deal now, because no 1080p content exists--even on the CEDIA show floor. But eventually it will.

The rep said that at some point Sony may sell a kit to upgrade these sets to native 1080p, but it'll be a dealer-installed part.

Sony also introduced three new BRAVIA-branded LCD televisions. BRAVIA stands for Best Resolution Audio Visual Integrated Architecture (which sounds like a resolution somebody thought it up on New Year's Eve). The line includes 26-inch, 32-inch, and 40-inch models, costing $2000, $2700, and $3500, respectively. The 32- and 40-inch models utilize S-PVA (Super Patterned Vertical Alignment) technology, which is supposed to produce a wider viewing angle and faster image response times.

the newest sony i've seen were the A11s (A10 in U.S.). IMO they look better than some of the DLPs i've seen so far. if it gets even better than the A10s then i will be pretty happy.

the newest sony i've seen were the A11s (A10 in U.S.). IMO they look better than some of the DLPs i've seen so far. if it gets even better than the A10s then i will be pretty happy.

It looks a good deal better than the A-10's, nice as they may be. The SXRD is sharper, has no Screen Door Effect at all, and has better contrast, and black levels. As I stated earlier though, the diffference was more obvious in the 60 inch screen size.

Alanbuck

Thank you for your feedback. I definitely will hold tight and remain committed to the 60" SXRD based upon your viewing experiences. I must say I didn't expect anything less - Sony would have to intentionally make the PQ inferior which is unlikely since on volume and market sales volume at $5K versus $13K they will easily make up the difference in volume sales.

Thank God I didn't have that SXRD to watch the worst game played by U of M in 40 years I've watched Blue - ouch! Easily one of the ugliest games ever and ABC does a pretty lousy job with it's HD on this College game anyways.

Thanks Alan for going to the trouble - Definitely sticking with the SXRD.. :D

Alan

Earlier in this thread when bulb life came up, I believe you said from 3,000-6,000 hours. Was that information from Sony?

The rep said that at some point Sony may sell a kit to upgrade these sets to native 1080p, but it'll be a dealer-installed part.And if you believe that, I've got a bridge I want to sell you! :D

Alan

Earlier in this thread when bulb life came up, I believe you said from 3,000-6,000 hours. Was that information from Sony?


That is the generally accepted range of life for the bulbs in all the micro-display TV's. Your 'actual mileage may vary'. :) Some bulbs die at 100 hours, some people have reported over 8000 hours, and going strong. I would stand by the 3,000 to 6,000 range as pretty typical though.

And if you believe that, I've got a bridge I want to sell you! :D
I would agree on that one..lol Just how much might this 'upgrade' cost? I can imagine a big OUCH. I would advise the 1080P input people to just hold off, and buy later if it's that big a deal to them.

Alan,

Thanks for being patient with our (MY) questions.

Here's a couple more.

With all the report of lip synch over on the Samsung thread, was the SXRD demo such that you could check for lip synch and if so, what did you see/hear?

Also, with much programming still SD, were you able to see how the set handle SD? (seriously doubt they were showing SD, but I thought I'd give it a shot.lol)

Alan,

Thanks for being patient with our (MY) questions.

Here's a couple more.

With all the report of lip synch over on the Samsung thread, was the SXRD demo such that you could check for lip synch and if so, what did you see/hear?

Also, with much programming still SD, were you able to see how the set handle SD? (seriously doubt they were showing SD, but I thought I'd give it a shot.lol)


Sorry...good questions, but can't answer either one. The feeds were obviously high quality HD programming coming from HD DVR's. I didn't notice any lip sync issues, but wasn't really looking for it either. Guess you will have to wait for these things to land in stores, and check them out.

Years ago when I got my CRT RPTV, the picture was atrocious until you got an ISF professional to come in and spend a few hours getting the convergences just right. The difference was astonishing, and could not be achieved with standard controls.

Is the same true for a set like these new SXRDs? I can get the DVD and adjust the standard options, but do I still need a one-time visit from a professional to get it up to its potential?

Thanks,
-- Ethan

Alan,

This may be a tough question to answer, but how do you think the black levels and contrast ratios on the SXRD's compare to the Panny plasmas which are supposed to be among the best when it comes to flat panels. I realize that these are two totally different technologies, but I'm just curious if the SXRD's are noticeably deficient in this area when directly compared to the best plasmas. I have read that the Panny plasmas offer deep blacks at the cost of some shadow detail. If the SXRD's offer blacks that are close to as deep and have better shadow detail, we've got a real winner on our hands. :)

Years ago when I got my CRT RPTV, the picture was atrocious until you got an ISF professional to come in and spend a few hours getting the convergences just right. The difference was astonishing, and could not be achieved with standard controls.

Is the same true for a set like these new SXRDs? I can get the DVD and adjust the standard options, but do I still need a one-time visit from a professional to get it up to its potential?

Thanks,
-- Ethan

Convergence is set at the factory, and never needs adjustment. I am sure some guys will be able to improve the total PQ with calibration though, but I doubt it is needed for most consumers needs.

Alan,

This may be a tough question to answer, but how do you think the black levels and contrast ratios on the SXRD's compare to the Panny plasmas which are supposed to be among the best when it comes to flat panels. I realize that these are two totally different technologies, but I'm just curious if the SXRD's are noticeably deficient in this area when directly compared to the best plasmas. I have read that the Panny plasmas offer deep blacks at the cost of some shadow detail. If the SXRD's offer blacks that are close to as deep and have better shadow detail, we've got a real winner on our hands. :)

Good questions. I am a Panny plasma fan also. The SXRD looked VERY black when it was supposed to (and it was displayed in the darkest area of any of the new 1080P TV's that I saw), and still seemed to have good shadow detail. I think the Panny pic has more 'pop' to it, but the SXRD looks more like what you would see at a movie theatre. The SXRD also has no visible pixels, unlike the Panny where it is obvious. The anti-reflective matte finish on the SXRD softens the pic a bit, compared to the shiny screen on the Panny. They are both great TV's. On an absolute basis I would say the SXRD wins though. Should be interesting to see them close together in stores soon.

You know one can get a 73" Mitsubishi CRT-RPTV that is the same width as the 60" SXRD and it comes with a stand and speakers on the bottom and a self for components on the top. 73" has much more impact than 60" and it is less expensive (and IMHO, better picture quality too- a Sony exec stated this also). Just something to think about.

Despite the danger of sounding like Artwood... I'm really beginning to believe this guy is a Mitsubishi employee.

Alan: It's great news that the new SXRD comes with a matte screen. Did the reflective screen on the Qualia make the difference in PQ since you said the Qualia looked a little better? Was the clarity and detail as sharp as the Qualia or is the picture soften like teh Samsung?

In my case it would have to be a 50A10 because the XS955 and A20 won't fit in my space. :(
So, not much help, sorry!
In your case, if considering the 60XS955 or 60A20 it may come down to cabinet style as the 60XS955 has the dumbo ear speakers. IMHO, the A20 seems to be improved slightly over the 60WF655 with less noticeable SDE & SSE and a slightly better PQ. Best place to learn more is the A20 thread.

Thanks again AKASTP. I saw some comparison info about A10/A20 in the 'Help I'm Considering Pre-Ordering a 50" SXRD' Thread. If the reports are true, about there not being much difference between the 50" SXRD and the 50" A20, then I will probably just with the 20 (or maybe 10) into they put 1080p inputs into the SXRD; AND NO shiny bezel.

Whatever I get, I will be greatful. It will be my first big screen. Can't wait to watch shows like Survivor, movies, and play games on it. I got to call again (3rd time today and see if anyone picks-up, maybe there becoming my local Circuit City) the Good Guys Monterey Park, CA, and GET PRICES! on the 50" inchers - XS, 10, & 20 (when the time comes for an SXRD, it WILL be the 60").

Thank-you everyone!

And if you believe that, I've got a bridge I want to sell you! :D

I don't know why it's so hard to believe. They offered a 1080p upgrade on the Qualia 004, so it's not unprecedented. It was an expensive upgrade, but then so was the 004, hopefully these would be less. If they were $400 (the cost the rep quoted it would have raised the price of the set) that would be reasonable.

Of course I wouldn't buy one counting on it. It would be nice if Sony offered something like the Promise module to guarantee it would happen, otherwise it's a gamble.

Thanks again AKASTP. I saw some comparison info about A10/A20 in the 'Help I'm Considering Pre-Ordering a 50" SXRD' Thread. If the reports are true, about there not being much difference between the 50" SXRD and the 50" A20, then I will probably just with the 20 (or maybe 10) into they put 1080p inputs into the SXRD; AND NO shiny bezel.

There is no 50" A20, it only comes in 55" and 60". It also doesn't have the dynamic iris like the A10 and SXRD, so black level performance will be worse than those two.

There is no 50" A20, it only comes in 55" and 60". It also doesn't have the dynamic iris like the A10 and SXRD, so black level performance will be worse than those two.


Thanks EMPIREofONE. Really. I know you did not have to do that for me. Then I will go visit the A10 thread. Off I gooooo...... (LOL).

[Just called GG Monterey Park (CA) there closed for remodeling.]

[I'm hoping to pay NO more than $3,000 before tax/warranty for a 55" (A10). Will see how much the 60" is just for sakes.]

Thanks EMPIREofONE. Really. I know you did not have to do that for me. Then I will go visit the A10 thread. Off I gooooo...... (LOL).

[Just called GG Monterey Park (CA) there closed for remodeling.]

[I'm hoping to pay NO more than $3,000 before tax/warranty for a 55" (A10). Will see how much the 60" is just for sakes.]


There's no 55A10 either. Just 42&50 A10, 55&60 A20, 50&60 SXRD.

Can't wait to watch shows like Survivor ...Believe it or not, Survivor is not filmed in HD. For some reason the networks have been reluctant to produce most of their reality programming in HD up to this point. I expect this to change in the near future, however.

Believe it or not, Survivor is not filmed in HD. For some reason the networks have been reluctant to produce most of their reality programming in HD up to this point. I expect this to change in the near future, however.

Sorry about that GWEEMPOSE. I meant, just watch the show on a big screen. I apologize to everyone for my idioticy (LOL). Thanks anyways. :)

The rep said that at some point Sony may sell a kit to upgrade these sets to native 1080p, but it'll be a dealer-installed part.
This would be great, if true. The other thing is how much? I believe the 1080p input upgrade for the Qualia 004 is $3,000. Of course that's only 10% of its price.

Would anyone here upgrade their 60" in the future for $500?

Gamers? HTPC people? Maybe if 1080p content were widely available? Of course, by the time that comes about, there will be a superior 1080p native display technology at a much lower price and we'll all be trading in our SXRD's anyway. :D

It sounds like Alan was the only person to make it to the show...Bummer...It would really be nice to heard from other people who have attended Cedia...hopefully soon...The SXRD sounds great but I think I will go with the A10 for my bedroom...I also like the way the A10 chassis looks over the SXRD...I just can't live with the side speakers...I just hate the way they look. I would also like to heard more about JVC's offerings.

Alanbuck

Thank you for your feedback. I definitely will hold tight and remain committed to the 60" SXRD based upon your viewing experiences. I must say I didn't expect anything less - Sony would have to intentionally make the PQ inferior which is unlikely since on volume and market sales volume at $5K versus $13K they will easily make up the difference in volume sales.

Thank God I didn't have that SXRD to watch the worst game played by U of M in 40 years I've watched Blue - ouch! Easily one of the ugliest games ever and ABC does a pretty lousy job with it's HD on this College game anyways.

Thanks Alan for going to the trouble - Definitely sticking with the SXRD.. :D

Greetings from another sad U-M alumni,
We just got back from the game; boy it was ugly and sloppy! Thank God I did not watch it in HDTV.
Regarding the SXRD sets, did they display how various sources looked? DVD? SD programming?
How close could one be when watching the 60' SXRD? What about it's viewing angles, horizontal and vertical?
Thanks.

As mentioned by others above, there is a 50" A10 and a 55" A20 but no 50" A20 and no 55" A10. Hope that makes sense. You know what (and I never thought I would say this) but I'm actually coming to the realization that the 50A10 is a very nice TV and at very good price (a little over $2K if you shop around) and would be an ideal first HDTV and carry one along for a year or two until 1080p becomes more mainstream and the 1080p sets are further refined.
Oops, I hope Gazelle, etc won't now accuse me of being a Sony plant ;)I agree with you...I might pick up a A10 for my bedroom...price wise its very affordable and PQ was decent better than the Mits LCD I seen. :)

I just saw the Qualia and hope that next year's models have the same glossy screen, thinner cabinet, and true 1080p. I mean I saw like no sse, sde on that 70" from like 6 feet... that's impressive.

Dpatrick: You need to re-read Allen's post because he said that the viewing angles are similiar to the A20 sets. Which is very good.

This would be great, if true. The other thing is how much? I believe the 1080p input upgrade for the Qualia 004 is $3,000. Of course that's only 10% of its price.

Would anyone here upgrade their 60" in the future for $500?

Gamers? HTPC people? Maybe if 1080p content were widely available? Of course, by the time that comes about, there will be a superior 1080p native display technology at a much lower price and we'll all be trading in our SXRD's anyway. :D


For (even) $500, definitely. Sure beats buying another TV for people who can (barely) even "afford" :) (LIKE ME) the 60" SXRD at time of launch (even at $4,500 it still alot). I'm going to see if I could get a 50" [maybe? 42", like mentioned by PHIL] A10, WITH tax AND WARRANTY for no more than $2,500. :) Just watch. I buy this TV, and next years SXRD has 1080p inputs (?) and no shiny bezel. There should never be a TV with a shiny bezel IMHO (LOL).

I just posted this on another thread. I agree with Alan about the blacks on these sets. First impression is by far the best I have seen an a micro RP display. Time will tell if first impressions are lasting!

I have been at CEDIA for the last three days, but it is a work trip. With classes, meeting with vendors, etc. I couldn't spend my time doing critical analysis in a crowded, brightly lit arena with controlled programming. That said, I spent about 5 minutes viewing the 50 and 60" SXRD's. Wow! They were playing what appeared to be an HD version of Zorro. Blacks looked black and I could see every strand of hair on Katherine Zeta-Jones' head. I am really looking forward to getting these in the store and having an extended view. I also don't know how carefully they were calibrated, but skin tones looked very real and no flaws stood out.

Another great demo was at Runco. I have always liked their implementation of DLP and seldom notice rainbows on them despite seeing them on all other DLP sets. They put what I think was a 1080p signal on a 14 foot 2:35/1 screen. They use anomorphic technology to use all of chip to create the image. It was stunning.

I forgot to ask if the source was HD or DVD. If it was DVD I am amazed, given the size of the screen.

I wish I had more time to evaluate displays, but the show floor is a real zoo. It didn't open until Friday and the reps work all hours getting their displays and demos set up.

I hope this is of some help and I am sure others will be chiming in as they decompress from all the activity. Lew

Believe it or not, Survivor is not filmed in HD.


Gee, no kidding!

For some reason the networks have been reluctant to produce most of their reality programming in HD up to this point. I expect this to change in the near future, however.

I recently asked the programming director at KCNC (Denvers CBS affiliate)
why CBS makes a special point of shooting all reality shows
in ugly low definition. She said it was for the simplest of all reasons...they're too
cheap to spend the extra money for hi def. A year ago, I would have believed that there must be some technical reason. But FOX dispelled any possibility that
reality shows can't be in HDTV by producing all their reality shows in HD.
I would love to see CBS get whacked in ratings as punishment for giving us,
the viewers, the ugliest, most unappealing presentation possible.

Lew Black: How did the new Sony look with a matte screen and shiny bezel? How did it compare to the Qualia?